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PROCEEDINGS 


AND  ^  J 


DEBATES 


,        OF  THE 


VIRGIIVIA  STATE  CONVEXTIOX, 


OF 


1829-30. 


TO  WHICH   ARE  SUBJOINED, 

THE  NEW  CONSTITUTION  OF  VIRGINIA, 


AND  THE 


VOTES  OF  THE  PEOPLE. 


No  free  government,  or  the  blessing  of  liberty,  can  be  preserved  to  any  people j  but  by  a  firm  adhe- 
rence to  justice,  moderation,  temperance,  frugality  and  virtue,  and  by  frequent  recurrence  to  funda- 
viental  principle*. —Ymai^^i a  Bill  of  Rights. 


LAW  UBRARY 


RICHMOND ! 

PRINTED   BY   SAMUEL  SHEPHERD   &1  CO 
FOR  RITCHIE  &  COOK, 


1830. 


Eastern  District  of  Virginia,  to  wit 

Be  it  remembered,  That  on  the  thirteenth  day  of  August,  in  the  fifly-fiflh 
I****""*;  year  of  the  Independence  of  tlie  United  States  of  America,  PtiTCHiE  & 
*  L.  8.  ♦  Cook,  of  the  said  District,  have  deposited  in  this  office,  the  title  of  a  book, 
the  right  whereof  they  claim  as  proprietors,  in  the  words  following,  to  wit; 

"  Proceedings  and  Debates  of  the  Virginia  State  Convention,  of  1829-30.  To  which 
are  subjoined  tJie  jXezo  Constitution  of  Virginia,  and  the  Votes  of  the  People.  JYo  free 
Government,  or  the  blessing  of  liberty,  can  be  preserved  to  any  people,  but  by  a  firm 
adherence  to  justice,  moderation,  temperance,  frugality,  and  virtue,  and  by  frequent  re- 
currence to  fundamental  principles.    Virginia  Bill  of  Rights." 

In  conformity  to  the  Act  of  the  Congress  of  the  United  States,  entitled,  "  An  Act 
for  the  encouragement  of  learning,  by  securing  the  copies  of  maps,  charts  and  books, 
to  the  authors  and  proprietors  of  such  copies,  during  the  times  therein  mentioned." 

R'D  JEFFRIES, 
Clerk  of  the  Eastern  District  of  Virginia. 


PREFACE 


It  IS  vini)*-:ccssaiy  to  go  into  the  liibtorv  oi  tlie  various  attempts, 
which  have  been  niade  in  Virginia  to  revise  her  Constitution.  It  is 
enough  to  say,  that  alter  repeated  failures  in  the  Legislature,  a  bill 
was  passed  durmg  the  session  of  18^7-28,  for  taking  the  sense  of 
the  voters  on  the  call  of  a  Convention.  In  the  course  of  the  year 
1828,  the  polls  were  opened,  and  the  question  was  carried  by  21,896 
to  16,646  votes.  Immediately  a  deep  interest  was  spread  through 
the  Commonwealth.  The  people  began  to  cast  about  for  such  men 
as  were  best  qualifie4  to  serve  them.  There  was  no  restriction  in 
their  right  of  selection,  either  as  to  the  office  which  was  held,  or  as 
to  the  place  where  the  Delegate  resided.  Each  of  the  twenty-four 
Senatorial  Districts,  into  which  the  State  had  been  previously  divided, 
was  entitled  to  four  Delegates  ;  and  in  some  cases,  the  people  of  one 
District  were  induced  to  look  into  others  for  such  men,  as  they  thought 
best  fitted  to  represent  them.  The  consequence  of  this  great  ex= 
citement  was,  that  an  assembly  of  men  was  drawn  together,  which  has 
scarcely  ever  been  surpassed  in  the  United  States.  Some  have  even 
held  it  to  be  equal  to  the  celebrated  Convention,  which  met  in  Vir= 
ginia  in  the  year  17SS,  to  pass  upon  the  Federal  Constitution.  Much 
of  what  was  venerable  for  years  and  long  service  ;  many  of  those 
who  were  most  respected  for  their  wisdom  and  their  eloquence  ; 
two  of  the  Ex-Presidents*  of  the  United  States ;  the  Chief  Justice 
of  the  United  States ;  several  of  those  who  had  been  most  distin- 
guished in  Congress,  or  the  State  Legislature,  on  the  Bench  or  at 
the  Bar,  were  brought  together  for  the  momentous  purpose  of  laying 
anew  the  fundamental  law  of  the  land. 

The  scene  was  truly  an  interesting  one,  not  only  to  the  State  itself^ 
but  to  the  L^nion.  Almost  all  eyes  were  fixed  upon  it.  Several  distin- 
guished strangers,  as  well  as  many  of  the  citizens  of  the  State,  were 
spectators.  The  great  importance  of  the  subject,  as  well  as  the  high 
character  of  the  members,  diffused  an  interest  over  it,  which  has 
been  very  seldoni  equalled  :  and  it  may  be  truly  said,  that  the  reahty 
did  not  disappoint  the  pubhc  expectation.  The  Debates  were  of  the 
most  animated  sort.  The  fundamental  principles  of  Government, 
the  elements  which  should  enter  into  the  composition  of  all  its  va- 
rious departments,  were  discussed  at  great  length,  and  wdth  much 
mgenuitVs  The  struggles  between  the  local  interests  of  difi:erent 
parts  of  the  State,  were  likewise  maintained  with  great  spirit  and 


*  It  is  remarkable,  that  Mi  Madiaon  tvas  the  only  survivor  of  the  Convention, 
-^Thich  formed  the  first  Constitution  of  the  State;  and  one  of  the  two  surviving  mem- 
bers of  thi  Convention^  which  formed  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States. 


^^^^^  LAWUBRARY 


iv 


PREFACE. 


perseverance.  At  length,  after  a  session  of  three  months  and  a  half, 
and  after  a  contest,  which  called  into  play  most  of  the  wisdom  and 
eloquence  of  the  House,  a  Constitution  was  formed,  which  was  sub- 
sequently proposed  to  the  people,  and  ratified  by  a  vote  of  26,055 
to  15,563. 

The  present  volume  comprises  the  Proceedings  and  Debates  of 
this  important  Convention.  It  is  as  complete  a  history  of  them,  as 
can  be  obtained :  Not  a  resolution,  nor  projet,  nor  vote,  which  has 
been  designedly  overlooked :  Scarcely  a  Debate,  which  is  not  attempt- 
ed to  be  sketched.  The  Pubhshers,  fully  aware  of  the  deep  interest 
which  these  proceedings  would  excite,  not  only  at  the  moment  of  ac- 
tion, but  for  all  future  time,  were  anxious  to  rescue  them,  as  far  as 
possible,  from  oblivion ;  and  they  accordingly  looked  around  for  the 
best  Reporter  that  could  be  obtained.  The  skill  of  Mr.  Stansbury, 
of  Washington,  in  reporting  the  proceedings  of  Congress,  is  well 
known  to  the  citizens  of  the  United  States  ;  and  the  Pubhshers  deem 
themselves  fortunate  in  having  obtained  his  ^rvices,  as  a  Reporter 
for  the  Convention.  The  public  may  be  assured,  that  they  have 
spared  no  pains  in  making  their  volume  as  perfect  as  possible.  Many 
of  the  Speeches  have  since  been  revised  by  the  members,  and  many 
of  the  Debates  are  now  published  for  the  first  time.  Yet  the  Pub= 
lishers  cannot  be  insensible  to  the  imperfections  of  the  work.  No 
Stenographer  can  take  down  every  thing  accurately.  No  elforts  of 
our  own  could  supply  what  was  defective.  Some  of  the  orators  had 
neither  the  time  nor  the  inclination,  nor  even  the  means,  of  enlarg- 
ing the  sketches  of  the  Stenographer ;  and  we  feel  it  due  to  some  of 
them,  frankly  to  confess,  that  we  are  far  from  having  done  justice  to 
some  of  their  Speeches,  It  is  not  easy  to  report  the  Speeches  of 
such  orators  as  Randolph,  and  Leigh,  and  Giles;  and  if  these,  or 
any  other  gentleman,  should  think  fit  to  complain,  that  their  argu- 
ments have  been  omitted,  or  misrepresented,  we  can  only  assure 
them,  and  the  public,  that  we  have  done  the  best  within  our  power. 
If  the  volume  we  now  lay  before  the  public  be  not  complete,  we  are 
sure  at  least  that  it  is  valuable ;  and  we  may  be  perhaps  excused  the 
harmless  vanity  of  expressing  our  surprise,  that  instead  of  not  doing 
more,  we  have  done  so  much.  Such  as  it  is,  it  is  calculated  to  assist 
in  interpreting  the  provisions  of  the  Instrument  itself,  by  shewing 
the  ^'fundamental  principles,''''  and  the  various  views  to  which  "  re- 
currence''^ has  been  had  in  its  formation. 

We  subjoin  to  the  proceedings  of  the  Convention,  a  copy  of  the 
Constitution  which  they  framed,  and  the  Votes  of  the  people  upon  it. 

Ail  which  is  now  respectfully  submitted. 

RITCHIE  &  COOK, 

Richmond.  .luo;ust,  }SSO, 


FROCF.SmNGS  ANI>  DEBATES 


OI^  THE 


COMYENTIOW  OF  YIKGI^^IA. 


MONDAY,  OcTOBKR  5,  1829. 

The  Convention  elected  for  tlie  purpose  of  revisijig  the  Constitution  of  this  State, 
assembled  this  da}'-  in  the  Capitol.  The  attendance  was  very  general,  the  entire 
number  of  Delegates  being  present  with  tlie  exception  of  six  persons,  detained  by- 
indisposition. 

At  a  little  after  12  o'clock  Mr.  Tvladison  rose  and  addressed  the  Convention.  He 
stated  the  propriety  of  organizing  the  body  by  the  appointment  of  a  President;  and 
he  therefore  nominated  James  INIonroe  as  qualified  to  till  the  Chair ;  and  one  whose 
character  and  long  public  services  rendered  it  unnecessary  for  him  to  say  more  than 
present  him  respectfully  to  the  notice  of  the  House. 

No  other  candidate  being  put  in  nomination,  the  question  was  put  on  the  nomination 
of  Mr.  Monroe  ;  and  he  was  elected  nem.  con. 

Messrs.  ivladison  and  jMarsiiall  having  conducted  him  to  the  Chair,  he  addressed  the 
Convention  nearly  in  the  follovring  terms  : 

Having  served  my  country  from  very  early  life,  in  all  its  highest  trusts  and  most 
difficult  emergencies,  from  tlie  most  important  of  wliich  trusts  I  have  lately  retired,  I 
cannot  otherwise  than  feel  with  great  sensibility,  this  proof  of  the  liigh  confidence  of 
this  very  enlighiened  and  respectable  Assembly.  It  was  my  earnest  hope  and  desire, 
that  a  very  distinguished  citizen  and  friend,  who  has  preceded  me  in  several  of  these 
high  trusts,  and  who  had  a  just  claim  to  that  precedence,  should  have  taken  this  station, 
and  I  deeply  regret  the  considerations  which  have  induced  him  to  decline  it.  The 
proofs  of  his  very  important  services,  and  the  purity  of  his  life,  will  go  down  to  our 
latest  posterity  ;  and  his  example,  aided  by  that  of  others,  Vvdiom  I  need  not  mention, 
will  give  a  strong  prop  to  our  free  system  of  government. 

I  regret  my  appointment  from  another  consideration  :  a  fear,  that  I  shall  not  be  able 
to  discharge  the  duties  of  the  trust,  with  advantage  to  my  country.  I  have  never 
before  held  such  a  station,  and  am  ignorant  of  the  rules  of  the  House.  I  have  also 
been  afflicted  of  late,  vdth  infirmity ,"which  still  exists  to  a  degree,  to  form  a  serious 
obstacle.  Being  placed,  however,  here.  I  v.^ill  exert  my  best  faculties,  physical  and 
mental,  such  as^they  are,  at  every  hazard,  to  discharge  its  duties  to  the  satisfaction  of 
tliis  Assembly,  and  of  my  country. 

This  assembly  is  called  for  the  most  important  object.  It  is  to  amend  our  Consti- 
tution, and  thereby  give  a  new  support  to  our  system  of  free  republican  government : 
our  Constitution  was  the  fii-st  that  Vas  formed  in  the  Union,  and  it  has  been  in  opera- 
tion since  :  We  had  at  that  period,  the  examples  only  of  the  ancient  republics  before 
us  ;  we  have  novv'  the  experience  of  more  than  half  a  century  of  this,  our  own  Con- 
stitution, and  of  those  of  all  our  sister  States.  If  it  has  defects,  as  I  think  it  has, 
experience  will  have  pointed  them  out,  and  the  abiUty  and  integrity  of  this  enlightened 
body,  will  recommend  such  alterations  as  it  deems  proper  to  our  constituents,  in  whom 
the  power  of  adopting-  or  rejecting  them  is  exclusively  vested. 

All  other  republics  have  filled.  °  Those  of  Rome  and  Greece  exist  only  in  History. 
In  the  territories  wliich  they  ntied,  we  see  the  ruins  of  ancient  buildings  only  ;  the 


2 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Governments  have  perished,  and  the  inhabitants  exhibit  a  state  of  decrepitude  and 
wretchedness,  which  is  irightful  to  those  who  visit  them. 

On  tlie  subject  of  order,  and  the  method  of  proceeding,  I  need  not  say  any  thing 
to  this  Assembly.    The  importance  of  tlie  call,  and  the  manner  of  election,  give  am- 


ple assurance  that  no  danger  need  be  apprehended  on  that  subject.  Our  fellow-citi- 
zens,  in  the  elections  they  have  ;nade,  have  looked  to  the  great  cause  at  issue,  and 
selected  those  whom  tliey  thought  most  competent  to  its  duties.    They  have  not  de- 


voted tiiemselves  to  individuals,  but  have  regarded  principle,  and  sought  to  secure  it. 
In  this  [  see  strong  gronad  to  confide  in  the  stability  and  success  of  our  system.  It 
inspires  me  with  eqn:i\  confidence  that  the  result  of  your  labors  will  correspond  with 
tiieir  jnost  sanguine  hopes. 

i\Ir.  Gordon  then  moved  that  the  Convention  proceed  to  the  election  of  a  Clerk,  and 
nominated  Mr.  Spottswood  Garland  of  Nelson,  as  a  suitable  candidate. 

Mr.  B.  W.  I.eigh  proposed  tlie  name  of  Mr.  George  W.  Munford  of  this  City,  late 
Clerk  c)f  the  J  louse  of  Delegates. 

Mr.  Doddridge,  tii:it  of  Erasmus  Stribblinfr  of  Augusta. 
Mr.  Morris,  tiiat  of  Ednmnd  Pendleton  of  Caroline. 
Mr.  Green,  that  of  David  J.  Briggs ;  and 
Mr.  Stan.u-d,  that  of  Thomas  B.  Barton. 

These  nominations  were  accompanied  with  recommendatory  remarks,  and  in  some 
cases  with  documentary  testimony  in  favor  of  the  respective  candidates. 

The  Convention  then  T>roceeded  to  ballot ;  and  a  Committee,  consisting  of  the  gen- 
tlemen who  had  nominated  the  candidates,  having  been  appointed  to  count  the  votes, 
Mr.  Gordon  of  tliat  Committee,  reported  them  as  follows : 

For  Mr.  Munford,  38  votes. 

"        Stribbling,  18 
Garland,  6 
Briggs,  16 
"        Barton,  4 
Pendleton,  4 
The  entire  number  of  ballots  put  into  the  box  having  been  86,  and  consequently  44 
being  requisite  to  a  choice,  it  appeared  that  neither  of  the  candidates  had  been  elected. 

Mr.  Doddridge  observed,  tliat  according  to  the  rule  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  the 
lowest  on  tlie  ballot  is  tlrop]H!d  on  the  next  ballot. 
The  result  of  a  second  l)allot  was  as  follows  : 

For  Mr.  Munford,  45  votes. 

Stribbliiig,  19 
"        Gorland,  18 
Briggs,  -  6 

Barton,  1 
Pendleton,  0 
89  ballots  were  given  in,  and  45  being  necessary  to  a  choice,  Mr.  George  W.  Mun- 
ford was  declared  to  be  duly  elected,  having  received  that  number  precisely. 

Mr.  Doddridge  now  stated  that  at  a  former  Convention,  the  rules  of  the  House  of 
Delegates  had  been  adopted,  so  far  as  they  would  apply,  to  regulate  the  proceedings : 
in  conformity  with  that  precedent,  he  then  proposed  the  following  resolution  : 

Rcsnlrrd,  That  the  Rules  of  the  late  House  of  Delegates  be  adopted  by  this  Con- 
vention, as  rules  to  govern  its  proceedings  and  deliberations,  so  far  as  they  apply. 
The  resolution  was  adopted. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  M'Coy,  the  Convention  then  proceeded  to  elect  a  Serjeant  at 
Arms. 

Mr.  Powell  nominated  as  a  suitable  person  for  that  situation  Mr.  William  Randolph 
of  Frederick  county. 

Mr.  Cabell  nominated  Col.. Tames  Sawyers  of  Pittsylvania. 
Mr.  Samuel  Taylor  proposed  Mr.  Wade  Mosby  of  Powhatan. 
Mr.  Garnett  nominated  Mr.  David  Meade  Randolph. 
Mr.  Morris  nominated  Mr.  Samuel  Jordan  Winston  ;  and 
Mr.  Campbell  proposed  the  name  of  Peter  Francisco. 

The  ballot  being  taken,  the  result  was  reported  by  Mr.  Powell,  from  the  Committee 
appomted  to  examine  the  ballots,  as  follows  : 

For  William  Randolph,  25  votes. 

"  James  Sawyers,  14 
"  V/ade  Mosby,  12 
"  David M.  Randolph,'  4 
Samuel  J.  Winston,  14 
"  Peter  Francisco,  17 
Scattering,  3 

The  entire  number  of  ballots  having  been  89,  and  45  requisite  for  a  choice,  there 
was  of  course,  no  election  by  this  ballot.  ' 


DEBATES    OF    THE  CONVENTION. 


3 


A  second  trial  was  equally  unsuccessful,  the  votes  standing  as  follows  : 
For  William  Randolph,  39  votes. 

James  Sawvers.  12 
Wade3Iosbv.  '  11 
David  31.  Randolph,  -  0 

Samuel  J.  Winston,  11 
Peter  Francisco.  16 
A  third  ballot  being  taken,  the  issue  was  as  follows  : 

For  William  Randolph,     •  59  votes. 

Janies  Sawvers,  15 
Wade  Mosbv,   '  0 
Samuel  J.  Yi'inston,         ■       ~  0 
Peter  Francisco,  13 
Scattering,  2 
So  William  Randolph  was  duly  elected  Serjeant  at  Arms, 
On  motion  of  3Ir.  Clopton.  the  following  resolution  was  then  adopted  : 
Resolved,  That  the  P.eporters  for  the  IS'ewspapers  in  the  town  of  Richniond,  be 
admitted  to  seats  for  the  purpose  of  taking  notes  of  the  proceedings  of  the  Con- 
vention. 

The  Roll  of  the  House  was  called,  and  the  following  was  the  result : 


A  LIST  OF  DELEGATES  TO  THE  CO^^VENTION. 

r  4  •  t   -c  a     T     rn    ^  n     7      f  John  W.  Jones,  of  Chesterfield, 

district  of  .Amelia.  C  fie  stern  da.  Lumber-    -n     •     ■    w  t   •  i     ^  + 
1     1    i'  ..         '  r>     7  /      '    7  J  Reniamm  W.  Leisrh.  oi  Cheste 

land  Aot  oiray,  PawhcUan,  a,id  Toiai^  g^J,^^^  rj.  of  Chesterfield, 

of  Petersburg,  .  Willi.m  R  r.Hp.«.  rr^n^.^  nf  At^ 


W^illiam  B.  Giles,  (Gov.)  of  Ameha. 

r  William  H.  Brodnax.  of  Dinwiddle, 
District  of  Bi'unsfcick,  Dijuciddie,  Lu-  J  George  <D.  Dromgoole.  of  Brunswick, 
yienburg ,  and  Mecklenburg,  j  Mark  Alexander,  of  INIecklenburg, 

t^Yilliam  O.  Goode,  of  Mecklenbm-g. 

District  of  the  City  of  WiJliiimshurg,  f  J.  IVIarshall.  (C.  J.  U.  S.)  of  Richmond  City, 
Charles   City,  Fdizabeth  City,  James  ]  John  Tyler,  of  Charles  City, 
City,  City  of  Richmond,  Henrico,  ycic]  Philip  X.  Nicholas,  of  Riclnnond  City, 
Kent,  Waricick,  and  York,         '         i^JohiiB.  Clopton.  of  2Sew  Kent. 

r Peachy  Harrison,  of  Rockingham, 
rx-^  •  ,  r  c7  J  1  J  T>  I  ■  1  j  Jacob 'Williamson,  of  Rockuio-ham, 
District  of  Shenandoah  and  Rocknighrcm,^  ^y^y-^^^^  Anderson,  of  Shenandoah, 

Samuel  Coftman.  of  ShenandoaJi. 

f  Briscoe  G.  Bald^vin,  of  Augusta, 
District  of  Augusta ,  Rockbridge  and  Pen-  \  Chapman  Johnson,  of  Augusta, 
dleton,       ^  ]  William  M'Coy.  of  Pendleton, 

[_ Samuel  ^I'D.  Moore,  of  Rockbridge. 

!.  of  Monroe. 


District  of  Monroe,  Greenhrier,  Bath,  Bo-  \ ^y^^^-^  of  Greenbrier, 

eming  B.  Miller,  of  Botet 
j^John  Baxter,  of  Pocahontas 


tetourt,.meghany,Pocuhofitas  and  AV^  Fienfino-  B.  MiUer.  of  Botetourt, 


District  of  Sussex,  Surry,  Southampton  { ^f^]} ;y^l^^^^^^^^ 

Isle  of   night,   Prince   George  andJ,^  Auo-ustine  Claiborne,  of  Greensville, 
Lrreen^viue,  j^^-^  Urquliart,  of  Southampton. 

f  John  Randolph,  of  Charlotte, 
District  of  Charlotte,  Halifax  and  Prince  j  "William  Leigh,  of  Halifax, 
Edward,  i  Richard  Logan,  of  Halifax, 

1^ Richard  N.  Venable,  of  Prince  Edward. 


f  James  Madison,  (Ex-P.)  of  Orange, 
j  Philip  P.  Barbour,  of  Orange, 
j  David  Watson,  of  Louisa, 
[_  Robert  Stanard,  of  Spottsylvania, 


District   of  Spottsijhania,   Louisa,      j  Philip  P.^  Barbom:,  of  Orange,  ^  _^ 

Orange  and  Madison,  I  David  Watson,  of  Louisa, 


4 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


James  Monroe,  (Ex-P.)  of  Loudoun, 
Cliarles  F.  Mercer,  of  Loudoun, 
DisLricL  of  Loudoun  and  Fairfax,  ^  William  H.  Fitzhugli,  of  Fairfax, 

Richard  Fi.  Henderson,  of  Loudoun. 

r  John  Pc.  Cooke,  of  Frederick, 
J  Alfred  H.  Powell,  of  Frederick, 
Vtdlricl  of  Frederick  and  Jtjj'craon,  liierome  L.  Opie,  of  Jefferson, 

*    Thomas  Griggs,  jun.  of  Jefferson. 

f  William  Naylor,  of  Hampshire, 
District  of  Ihnnpshire,  Ilardi/,  Berkeley  \  William  Donaldson,  of  Hampshire, 
aiuL  Morgan,  \  Elisha  Boyd,  of  Berkeley, 

(^Philip  C.  Pendleton,  of  Berkeley. 

f  John  B.  George,  of  Tazewell, 
District  of  Washinirton,  Lcc,  Scolt,  Rus- j  Andrew  M'Millan,  of  Lee, 

D'clL  and  luzcwcU,  |  Edward  Campbell,  of  Washington,, 

1^  William  Byars,  of  Wasliington. 

f  John  Roane,  of  King  William, 
District  of  King    William,  King  and  )  William  P.  Taylor,  of  Caroline, 
Q,uccn,  FsseZy  Caroline  and  Hanover,]  Richard  Morris,  of  Planover, 

James  M.  Garnett,  of  Essex. 

r  Gordon  Cloyd,  of  Montgomery, 
District  of  Wijthc,  Montgomery,  Grayson  \  Henley  Chapman,  of  Giles, 
and  Giles,  \  John  P.  Mathews,  of  Wythe,- 

William  Oglesby,  of  Grayson. 


District  of  Kamuoha,  Mason,  Ca&cW,  [^^''"1  ^- 

Randolph,  Uarnson  Lewis,  iVoodand\  "J^^"^.  ^^'^^^J^  Ca^^^l. 


Lossan, 


I  ^ewis  Summers,  of  Kanawha, 
l^Adam  See,  of  Randolph. 


f  Philip  Doddridge,  of  Brooke, 
Disl'  ict  of  Ohio,  Tyler,  Brooke,  Monoii-  \  Charles  S.  Morgan,  of  Monongalia., 
galia  and  PrvMon,  j  Alexander  CanipbeU,  of  Brooke, 

(^Eugenius  M.  Wilson,  of  Monongalia. 

rJohn  S.  Barbour,  of  Culpeper, 

District  of  Fauquier  and  Cvhwpcr,         \  f^f  Fauquier, 

^  ]  John  Macrae,  of  Fauquier, 

l^John  W.  Green,  of  Culpeper, 

r  Littleton  W^.  Tazewell,  of  Norfolk  Borough, 
Dtslnct  of  Korfolh,  Princess  Anne,  J\an-  j  Joseph  Prentis.  of  Nansemond, 

semond  and  Borough  of  Aorfolk,         1  Robert  B.  Taylor,  of  Noriblk  Borough, 

tGeoige  Loyall,  of  Norfolk  Borough." 

.  ,  f  William  Campbell,  of  Bedford, 

District  of  CamphcU,  Buckingham  and  j  Samuel  Ciaytor,  of  Campbell 
^*^dJord,  ^  Callohill  Mennis,  of  Bedford,' 

t  James  Saunders,  of  Campbell. 

n-  ,  •  ,  r         7  7-     r>     •  ,  f  ^eorge  Towucs,  of  Pittsylvauia, 

District  of  Iranklm,  Patrick,  Henry  and  J  Benj.  W.  S.  Cabell,  of  Pittsylvania, 
PUtsylvanm,  \  Joseph  Martin,  of  Henry, 

t  Archibald  Stuart,  jun.  of  Patrick. 

n;  /}//        /     ..7  f  James  Pleasants,  of  Goochland, 

District  of  menmrtc,  Aviherst,  Kelson,  \  William  F.  Gordon,  of  Albemarle, 
FLuvanrut  and  Goochland,  <  Lucas  P.  ThompsoA,  of  Amherst,' 

i^Thojuas  Massie,  jun.  of  Nelson. 

District  of  King  George,  Westmoreland  fiTI^^^^^^  A^'  ^"  of  Prince  William, 

Lancaster,  Northumberland,  Richmond  \  ■J^%son  Curne,  of  Lancaster, 
UlaJ/'ord  and  Prince  WiUiaw.  '  )  ^^^^^"^  Taliaferro,  of  King  George, 

'  U'^leming  Bates,  of  Northumberland 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


5 


rTlioma,s  R.  Jojnes,  of  Accomack, 
District  of  Mnttheics.  Middlesex,  Acco-  \  Thomas  M.  Ba.yly.  of  Accomack, 
mcLck,  jVoriluinipton  and  Gloucescsr,     j  Calvin  H.  Read,  of  Nortliampton, 

[_xADel  P.  Upshur,  of  Northampton. 

All  the  above  members  v/ere  present,  and  answered  to  their  names,  v^-ith  the  fol- 
lowing exceptions  : 

Ahsentccs — William  B.  Giles,  from  the  First  District ;  David  Watson,  from  the  Ninth 
District,  who  has  notified  the  Executive  of  Iris  inability  to  serve:  Calloliiil  Mennis, 
from  the  Tv/entieth  District  ;  William  A.  G.  Dade,  from  the  Twenty-third  District, 
(and  who,  it  is  believed,  will  resign,  in  consequence  of  indisposition)  ;  Ellyscn  Cnr- 
rie,  from  the  Twenty-third  District,  dead ;  and  Calvin  H.  Read,  from  the  Twenty- 
fourth  District  (sick.) 

P»Ir.  Doddridge  then  oltered  the  following  resolution : 

Resolved,  That  the  Secretary  of  this  Convention,  be  authorised  and  required  to 
provide  the  same  vrith  stationery,  and  that  he  do  also  contract  for,  and  superintend 
all  such  pub^^c  printing  as  shall  be  ordered  by  this  Convention,  on  the  most  beneficial 
terms  for  the  Commonv/ealth  in  his  povrer. 

In  advocating  the  adoption  of  tins  resolution,  Mr.  Doddridge  observed,  that  he  had 
been  induced  to  offer  it  to  the  Convention,  by  a  desire  to  avoid  the  occurrence  of  any 
thing  like  strife  or  party  collisions,  so  apt  to  be  excited  whenever  the  public  printing 
of  dehberative  bodies  was  given  by  resolution  or  election  to  a  particular  individual. 
He  understood  that  the  public  printing  of  Congress  had,  for  many  years,  been  confided 
to  the  management  of  the  Clerk  of  tiie  House  of  Representatives,  and  if  he  had  been 
rightly  informed,  it  was  done  as  well,  and  as  much  to  the  satisfaction  of  the  members, 
as  it  had  been  since  the  mode  had  been  changed  and  a  public  printer  appointed.  He 
feared,  if  the  Convention  should  proceed  to  the  election  of  a  printer,  its  members 
would  be  thrown  into  parties,  and  an  mipleasant  contest  ensue.  This  he  earnestly 
wished  to  avoid :  he  believed  the  resolution  he  had  had  the  honour  to  propose  was 
calcidated  to  avoid  it,  and  he  thought  it  would  be  acknovvledged  to  be  practical,  rea- 
sonable and  fair  in  its  character. 

Mr.  Nicholas  was  opposed  to  the  resolution.  He  most  fully  agreed  with  the  mem- 
ber, who  had  proposed  it  in  deprecating  the  introduction  of  party  spirit  and  party  col- 
lisions into  this  body.  But  he  did  not  see  why  such  consequences  must  follow  the 
election  of  a  printer  to  the  Convention,  any  more  than  the  election  of  an}^  other  offi- 
cer. He  presumed  that  oil  the  members  would  vote,  in  such  an  election,  from  the 
same  regard  to  the  pubhc  good  and  the  same  conviction  of  the  fitness  of  the  candidate 
proposed,  as  they  would  in  any  other,  or  as  they  had  in  the  ballots  justtaken.  He  could 
perceive  no  necessity  whatever  of  putting  out  the  small  amount  of  printing  required 
by  this  body  to  be  contracted  for.  The  appointment  of  a  pubhc  printer  was  the  stand- 
ing, permanent  usage  of  this  State.  There  had  always  been  such  a  printer  appointed 
by  her  Legislature,  as  well  in  the  Senate  as  in  the  House  of  Delegates.  He  could  see 
no  motive  for  a  change  of  that  usage  in  the  present  case.  The  public  v/ork  ought  to 
be  done  by  an  officer  responsible  immediately  to  the  House  itself:  v/here  vras  the  ne- 
cessity for  any  intermediate  agency He  vras  aware  of  the  very  respectable  character 
of  the  Secretary,  with  vrhom  the  resolution  proposed  to  pla.ce  this  trust,  nor  vras  it  any 
objection  to  that  officer  wliich  induced  him  to  object  to  the  measure  ;  but  he  -wished  to 
avoid  any  subordinate  agency  as  unnecessary  and  improper.  Let  the  printer  be  ap- 
pointed by  the  House  itself:  let  liim  be  responsible  directly  to  the  House  which  ap- 
pointed liim.  As  to  the  stationery,  he  took  it  for  granted,  that  had  already  heen  fur- 
nished b}^  the  Clerk  of  the  House  of  Delegates  :  if  so,  he  sa.v7  no  need  of  any  farther 
provision  on  that  subject.  He  was,  however,  uninformed  on  this  point,  being  now  for 
the  first  time  a  member  of  a  deliberative  body.  Seeing  no  good  end  to  be  accom- 
plished by  the  resolution  which  had  been  presented,  he  Vv^as  opposed  to  its  adoption : 
he  hoped  the  House  would  reject  it,  and  then  proceed  to  appoint  such  person  to  exe- 
cute its  printing,  as  it  should  deem  most  fit  and  competent  to  that  duty. 

Mr.  M'Coy  said,  that  he  also  was  opposed  to  the  resolution  wlficii  had  been  read. 
He  had  had  some  experience  on  this  subject  as  a  member  of  Congress,  and  he  knew 
that  so  long  as  the  public  printing  of  that  body  had  been  put  out  on  contract,  it  had 
been  very  badly  executed.  Constant  complaints  had  arisen,  and  so  greatly  had  the 
House  of  Representatives  been  dissatisfied,  that  it  had  been  driven  to  resort  to  another 
mode,  and  had  consequently  employed  a  pubhc  printer  appointed  by  law.  As  to  the 
idea  tlnrov.m  out  by  his  friend  on  the  left  (Mr.  Doddridge)  that  the  election  of  such  an 
officer  must  necessarily  excite  party  feehng,  he  could  not  for  his  part  very  well  unagine 
why  the  election  of  a  printer  should  produce  this  effect  any  more  than  the  election  of 
a  door-keeper.  Mr.  ]M'Coy  said,  he  did  not  exactly  knov/  what  was  the  practice  of  the 
State  Legislature  on  the  subject  of  stationery,  as  it  was  now  many  years  since  he  had 
held' a  seat  there,  but  he  believed  it  used  formerly  to  be  procm-ed  by  the  Clerk.  His 
experience,  however,  was  of  long  standing,  and  he  did  not  knov/  vvliat  might  be  the 


6 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


present  practice  in  the  matter  ;  but  he  hoped  what  stationery  they  needed  might  be 
procured  in  the  ordinary  Avay. 

Mr.  Chapman  Johnson  said,  that  as  there  appeared  to  be  some  difference  of  opinion 
in  relation  to  the  resolution  before  the  House,  and  its  further  discussion  at  this  tiine 
might  delay  the  full  organization  of  the  body,  he  would  move  that,  for  the  present,  it 
lie 'upon  the  table ;  and  he  made  that  motion  accordingly. 

Mr.  Doddridge  expressing  his  assent,  the  motion  was  agreed  to  nem.  con. 
Mr.  Johnson  then  moved  that  the  Convention  proceed  to  elect  two  door-keepers ; 
which  beino-  agreed  to,  the  following  persons  were  put  in  nomination  :  by  Mr.  Nicholas, 
Littleberry^Alfen  ;  by  Mr.  Pleasants,  Ellis  Puryear;  by  Mr.  Morris,  Anselm  Baily  and 
Samuel  Ford;  by  Mr.  Tyler,  John  S.  Stubblefield  and  Henry  H.  Southall ;  by  Mr. 
Clopton,  Pleasant  Pomfrey,  Ritchie  Ayres,  William  W.  Gray,  JuHus  Martin,  Chris- 
topher S.  Roane,  and  Thomas  Underwood. 

The  House  having  ballotted  for  the  appointment  of  one  of  its  two  door-keepers,  no 
choice  was  made  :  after  a  second  ballot,  Mv.  Kicholas,  from  the  Committee  appoint- 
ed to  examine  the  votes,  reported  that  they  stood  as  follows  : 

^      For  Littleberry  Allen,  62  . 

Ellis  Puryear,  •  0  . 

Anselm  Baily,  2 
Samuel  Ford,  ■  0 

John  S.  Stubblefield,  .       •       7  • 

•  Henry  H.  Southall,  0.:  - 

Pleasant  Pomfrey,  -  2  '  '  ■• 

Ritchie  Ayres,  :  0         .  ^  ^- 

William  W.  Gray,  ;        '    -         ^2  '  - 

Julius  Martin,  -  '        0  .  . 

Christopher  S.  Roane,  .     0 -•• 

Thomas  Underwood,  0 
Thomas  Davis,  1 
So  Littleberry  Allen  was  declared  duly  elected. 

Two  ballots  were  also  taken  for  a  second  door-keeper,  on  the  ballot  of  which 
John  S.  Stubblefield  had  20  votes,  and  William  W.  Gray,  55  ;  42  being  the  requisite 
majorit}^,  William  W.  Gray  was  declared  to  have  been  duly  elected. 
Mr.  Wilson  then  offered  the  following  resolution  : 

Resolved,  That  the  Convention  v/ill  proceed  to-morrow,  to  the  election  of  a  Chaplain. 

In  introducing  this  resolution,  Mr.  Wilson  said,  that  apart  from  all  higher  conside- 
rations which  belong-  to  the  subject,  he  thought  that  a  decent  respect  for  themselves, 
as  weW  as  for  the  opinions  and  feelings  of  the  community,  requires  of  the  members 
the  adoption  of  a  resolution  of  this  kind. 

Mr.  Powell  said,  that  he  was  by  no  means  opposed  to  the  object  of  the  resolution 
just  read:  very  far  from  it:  it  had,  on  the  contrary,  his  most  hearty  approbation  :  he 
was,  however,  opposed  to  the  mode  in  v/hich  the  object  was  proposed  to  be  attained. 
He  thought  a  better  course  would  be,  to  request  the  President  of  the  Convention  to 
present  to  the  Clergy  officiating  statedly  in  Richmond,  an  invitation  to  serve  in  rota- 
tion as  Chaplains  to  this  House.  This  would  obviate  all  imputation  of  invidious  dis- 
tinctions as  implied  in  the  election  of  a  particular  individual.  Under  this  impression, 
Mr.  Powell  said  he  v/ould  move  that  the  re;5olution  lie  for  the  present  upon  the  table. 
He  accordingly  made  the  motion,  and  it  vv^as  agreed  to  without  opposition. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Johnson,  the  House  then  adjourned  to  meet  to-morrow  at  12 
o'clock. 


TUESDAY,  October  6,  1829.  . 
The  President  took  the  chair  at  a  little  after  12  o'clock. 

Mr.  William  B.  Giles,  a  Delegate  from  the  First,  and  Mr.  Mennis,  a  Delegate  from 
the  Twentieth  Senatorial  Districts,  appeared  and  took  their  seats. 

Mr.  Doddridge  of  Brooke  county,  moved  to  take  up  the  resolution  he  had  yesterday 
offered  on  the  subject  of  the  public  printing,  with  a  view  to  its  withdrawal.  Mr.  Dod- 
dridge said  he  was  induced  to  take  this  course  by  a  fear  that  his  x-esolution,  if  pressed, 
might  possibly  lead  to  the  very  evil  (the  excitement  of  party  spirit)  which  he  had 
wished  to  avoid  by  its  presentation. 

The  motion  prevailing,  the  resolution  was  accordingly  withdrawn. 

Mr._  Doddridge  then  submitted  the  following  resolutions,  not,  he  said,  with  any  view 
to  their  being  taken  up  at  this  tirae,  but  hoping  that  they  might  be  permitted  to  lie  on 
the  table,  as,  probably,  other  gentlemen  might  have  prepared  resolutions  on  the  same 
subject,  more  acceptable  to  the  Plouse. 


DEBATES    OF    THE  CONVENTION. 


7 


1>  Resolved,  Thai  a  Comniittee  be  appointed  to  take  into  consideration  the  Bill  or 
Declaration  of  Riglits^and  to  report  to  tliis  Convention  whether  ,  in  their  opinion,  any, 
and  if  an",  what  amendments  axe  necessary  therein. 

2.  Resui  ccd,  That  a  Committee  be  appointed  to  take  into  consideration  the  Legisla- 
tive Department  of  Government  as  established  by  the  present  Constitution,  and  to 
report  to  tliis  Convention,  either  a  i^ubstitute  for  the  same,  or  such  amendments  thereto, 
as,  in  then  opinion,  are  necessary. 

3.  Resolved.  Tiiat  a  Comniittee  be  appointed  to  taie  into  consideration  the  Execu- 
tive Department  of  Government  as  estabhshed  by  the  present  Constitution,  and  to 
report  to  this  Convention  either  a  substitute  for  the  same,  or  such  amendments  tliereto, 
as,  in  their  opinion,  are  necessary. 

4.  Resoiccd,  That  a  Committee  be  appointed  to  tate  into  consideration,  the  Judicial 
Department  of  Government  estabhshed  by  the  present  Constitution,  and  to  report  to 
tliis  Convention  either  a  substitute  for  the  same,  or  such  amendments  thereto,  as,  in 
their  opinion, -are  necessary. 

5.  Resolved,  That  a  Committee  be  appointed  to  take  into  consideration  so  much  of 
the  Constitution  as  relates  to  the  Paght  of  Suffirage  and  qualifications  of  persons  to  be 
elected,  and  to  enquire  whether  any,  and  if  any,  what  alterations  or  amendments  are 
necessary  therein,  and  report  the  same  with  their  opinions  tliereon.  to  this  Convention, 

6.  Resolved,  That  a  Committee  be  appointed  to  take  into  consideration  tlie  proper 
basis  of  representation,  and  the  proper  mode  of  apportioning  representation  among  the 
people,  and  to  make  report  thereon  to  this  Convention. 

7.  Resolved.  That  a  Connnitcee  be  appointed  to  take  into  consideration  all  such  parts 
of  the  Constitution  as  are^  not  referred  by  the  foregoing  resolutions,  and  to  report  to 
this  Convention  either  substitutes  for  such  parts  or  such  amendments  thereto,  as,  in 
their  opinion,  are  necessary. 

8.  Resolved,  That  each  Committee  appointed  under  the  foregoing  resolutions,  shall 
consist  of  members. 

On  motion  of  ]Mr.  Doddridge,  these  resolutions  were  accordingly  laid  upon  the  table. 
Mr.  fiercer  moved  that  they  be  printed  ;.  but 

^Ir.  ]M'Coy  objected  to  this  order  being  passed  as  premature,  until  a  printer  should 
be  appointed  ;  and,  in  order  that  the  House  might  have  such  ofiicer,  he  moved  to  lay 
the  motion  of  Mr.  ->Iercer,  for  the  present  upon  the  table,  and  that  the  Convention  do 
now  proceed  to  the  election  of  a  printer.    The  motion  prevailed  :  whereupon 

Mr.  -M"Coy  nominated  Mr.  Thomas  E-itchie  as  a  smtable  person,  and  accompanied 
the  nomination  by  a  few  brief  remarks  in  its  support. 

Mr.  Ciopton  then  nominated  Mr.  John  H.  Pleasants,  in  whose  favour  he  said  a  few 
words. 

Mr.  Gamett  added  to  these  nominations  the  name  of  Z>Ir.  Tliomas  W.  ^"Miite,  to 
whose  competence  he  brieSv  bore  witness. 

The  House  then  proceeded  to  ballot:  when  Mr.  M" Coy  from  the  Coimnittee  ap- 
pointed to  examine  the  ballots,  reported  that  69  votes  had  been  given,  and  consequent- 
ly 45  were  necessary  to  a  choice  :  that 

Tiiomas  PJtchie  had  received,  54  votes. 

John  H.  Pleasants,  US 
Thomas  W.  White,  7 
Whereupon,  Thomas  Ritchie  was  declared  to  have  been  duly  elected  printer  to  the 
Convention. 

Mr.  Wilson  now  asked  permission  to  withdraw  the  resolution  he  had  yesterday  of- 
fered on  the  subject  of  appointing  a  Chaplain  :  and  having  obtained  it,  lie  offered  the 
following  as  a  substitute,  viz 

Resolved,  That  the  Secretary  be  directed  to  wait  on  the  Clergy  of  tliis  city,  and  re- 
quest them  by  an  anrangement  between  themselves,  to  open  the  session  of  the  Con- 
vention each  morning  by  prayer ;  and  the  question  having  been  put  on  its  adoption, 
Mr.  Powell  demanded  that  it  be  taken  by  yeas  and  nays  ;  but  ha'v'ing  failed  to  make 
this  demand  in  time,  the  question  was  taken  in  the  usual  mode,  and  the  resolution 
adopted  ;  50  members  rising  in  the  aSirmative. 

Mr.  ZvI  Coy  now  moved  that  the  series  of  resolutions  previously  offered  by  ISIr.  Dod- 
dridge and  now  lying  on  the  table,  be  printed. 

ISIr.  Johnson  said  he  had  not  the  least  objection  to  the  printing  of  the  resolutions ; 
but  he  had  a  proposition  which  he  wished  previously  to  offer  to  the  House,  and  which, 
if  adopted,  might  perhaps  render  that  order  unnecessary  :  He  would  state  it  for  the 
consideration  of  gentlemen,  and  the  mover  of  the  order  to  print  might  determine 
whetlier  it  would  not  be  best  to  withdraw  that  motion  for  the  present.  What  he  wish- 
ed to  ask.  was,  that  a  Committee  might  be  appointed  to  report  upon  the  best  course  to 
be  pursued  in'relation  to  the  subjects  embraced  in  the  resolutions  which  it  was  pro- 
posed to  prhit.  If  such  a  Committee  shouldbe  raised,  the  resolutions  would,  as  of  course, 
be  referred  to  it  for  consideration,  and  this  would  supersede  the  necessity  of  printing 
for  the  consideration  of  the  House. 


8 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  J.  said  lie  should  not  at,  this  time  present  the  reasons  which  had  induced  him 
to  sug-gest  this  coursn  of  proceeding,  but  would  try  the  sense  of  the  Convention  upon 
his  resolution,  if  the  pending  resolution  to  print  should  be  withdraTv^n. 

Mr.  Doddridge  expressed  his  hope  that  this  would  be  done,  as  he  approved  of  the 
object  which  seemed  to  be  the  aim  of  the  gentleman's  proposition. 

Mr.  ]\rCoy  siud,  he  would  very  clicerlully  withdraw  his  motion,  having  made  it 
under  a  sense  of  obligation,  in  courtesy  to  do  so,  as  he  had  caused  its  postponement 
when  made  by  another. 

The  motion  to  print  was  thereupon  v/ithdrawn,  and 

Mr.  Johnson  offered  his  resolution  in  the  following  form  : 

Rcsohcd,  That  a  Committee  of  seven  be  appointed  to  enquire  and  report  what 
method  will  be  nrost  expedient  in  Ijringing  l)efore  the  House  amendments  to  the  Con- 
stitution which  may  be  preferred. 

Mr.  J.  said  that  he  offered  this  resolution  in  conformit}^  to  a  precedent  set  in  the 
Convention  held  in  the  State  of  New  York,  where  sucli  a  proposition  had  been  pre- 
sented and  received  with  favoia-.  We  was  well  satisfied  that  the  opinions  of  the 
members  of  liiis  body  as  to  many  of  the  subjects  embraced  in  the  series  of  resolutions 
on  the  table,  were  very  variant,  and  that  tliere  must  be  nmch  difficulty  in  deciding  on 
the  proper  course  to  be  adopted.  The  resolution  he  had  offered  presented  itself  to 
him  as  being  the  best  expedient  which  covdd  be  resorted  to. 

Mr.  Powell  suggested  a  modification  of  the  resolution  by  changing  the  number  of 
the  Connnittee  from  seven  (as  originally  proposed)  to  thirteen;  to  which  modification 
the  mover  readily  assented. 

Mr.  Mercer  thereupon  suggested  that  the  resolution  be  farther  modified  by  enlarg- 
ing the  number  of  the  Committee,  so  as  to  embrace  one  member  from  each  Senatorial 
District.  This  lie  thought  would  be  a  ready  and  the  best  mode  of  gathering  the 
sense  of  the  whole  body.  The  truot  committed  to  the  Convention  was  an  important 
one;  the  enl.u-gement  of  the  Committee  would  not  be  great,  and  each  delegation 
would  then  be  "heard  on  the  arrangement  of  tlie  course  of  proceeding. 

JMr.  Johnson  said  he  had  no  particular  partiality  to  either  of  the  numbers  which  had 
been  proposed;  his  main  anxiety  had  been  that  such  a  Committee  should  be  raised; 
and  if  the  enlargement  last  proposed  met  the  sense  of  the  House,  he  was  content. 
He  therefore  adopted  the  modification  suggested  by  Mr.  Mercer,  and  the  resolution 
was  then  agreed  to,  without  opposition. 

The  President  then  rose  and  addressing  the  Convention,  said  that' he  had  to  express 
a  wish  that  the  appointment  of  this  and  of  all  subsequent  Committees  might  be  made, 
not  by  the  presiding  ofiicer,  but  by  the  House  itself.  Such  a  course  would  be  much 
more  agreeable  to  him.  He  had  now  been  long  absent  from  deliberative  assemblies: 
he  had  never  presided  in  any.  Many  of  the  gentlemen  present  were,  or  had  been 
members  of  the  State  Legislature,  and  were  much  better  acquainted  with  the  proper 
course  of  doing  the  business  of  such  a  body  than  he  could  be  expected  to  be;  his 
health,  besides,  was  delicate,  and  it  would  be  very  gratifying  to  him  if  the  Convention 
would  consent  to  relieve  liini  fl-om  the  charge  of  making  appointments  of  its  Com 
mittees. 

Mr.  Johnson,  though  very  desirous  of  lesE^ening  as  far  as  practicable  the  burden 
imposed  on  the  presiding  oiiicer,  did  not  see  how  the  wish  just  expressed  vv'ould  be 
complied  with,  unless  by  a  resolution  altering,  so  far,  the  rules  by  which  the  Conven- 
tion had  resolved  to  be  governed.  He  would  cheerfullj'^  ofi'er  such  a  resolution,  did 
lie  not  feel  persuaded  that  the  duty  of  appointing  would  be  performed  v/ith  more  facility 
as  well  as  greater  propriety  and  more  to  the  satisfaction  of  the  Convention,  in  the 
mode  at  present  prescribed.  They  were  disused  to  such  a  course  as  v^^as  now  sug- 
gested in  any  of  the  public  assemblies  in  the  State,  and  he  could  not  but  desire  that 
the  established  mode  should  be  adliered  to. 

Mr.  Doddridge,  talving  it  for  granted  that  until  the  resolution  nov/  before  the  House 
should  be  disposed  of,  no  farther  business  v»^culd  be  done,  moved  an  adjournment  to 
the  afternoon,  in  order  to  give  time  for  the  selection  of  suitable  persons  to  constitute 
the  Committee  proposed,  but  subsequently  withdrew  the  motion. 

Whereupon  Mr.  Macrae  offered  the  following  resolution  : 

Ecsolred,  That  a  Committee  of  members  be  appointed  to  consider  and  report 

what  rules  of  proceedings  of  the  House  of  Delegates  are  applicable  as  rules  of  pro- 
ceedings of  this  Convention,  and  what  amendments  thereof,  if  any,  ought  to  be  made. 

In  introducing  the  resolution,  Mr.  Macrae  observed  that  from  a  defect  of  Parlia- 
mentary experience,  he  was  unacquainted  with  the  rules  of  the  House  of  Delegates, 
wliich  had  in  part  been  adopted  for  the  government  of  the  Convention ;  and  unless 
those  rules  were  to  undergo  some  amendments,  he  should  be  obliged  to  move  for  their 
being  printed  in  their  present  forin.  But  he  thought  it  best  to  afford  the  opportunity 
of  their  being  modified,  if  necessary. 

The  resolution  was  adopted,  and  the  blank,  on  motion  of  Mr.  Scott,  was  filled  with 
the  word  seven. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


9 


The  following  gentlemen  were  thereupon  nominated  by  the  President  to  constitute 
this  Committee,  viz  : 

Messrs.  Macrae,  Scott,  Johnson,  ^Mercer,  Leigh  of  Chestertield.  Barbour  of  Orange, 
and  Gordon. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Scott,  a  Committee  of  Privileges  and  Elections  was  appointed, 
and  the  following  gentlemen  were  named  by  the  President  as  its  members,  viz  : 

Messrs.  Scott,  Doddridge,  Nicholas,  Taylor  of  Norfolk,  TaUaferro,  Pleasants  and 
Baldwin. 

Oa  motion  of  Mr.  M'Coy,  the  House  then  adjourned  till  to-morrow,  12  o'clock. 


WEDNESDAY,  October  7,  1S29. 

The  Convention  met  pursuant  to  adjournment,  and  its  sitting  was  opened  with 
prayer  by  the  Right  Rev.  R.  C.  2vIoore,  of  the  Episcopal  Church. 

The  followmg  Committee  of  twenty-four  members,  one  from  each  Senatorial  Dia- 
txict,  was  announced  as  having  been  appointed  by  the  President,  viz  : 


William  B.  Giles  from  the 

1st 

District. 

William  H.  Brodnax 

2d 

do. 

John  Marshall 

3d 

do. 

Peachy  Harrison 

4th 

do. 

Chapman  Johnson 

5th 

do. 

Andrew  Beirne 

Gth 

do. 

Joim  Y.  Mason 

7  th 

do. 

John  Randolph 

8th 

do. 

James  ^ladison 

9th 

do. 

Charles  F.  Mercer 

10th 

do. 

Alfred  H.  Powell 

11th 

do. 

William  Naylor 

12th 

do. 

John  B,  George 

13th 

do. 

John  Roane 

14th 

do. 

Henley  Chapman 

loth 

do. 

Lewis  Summers 

16th 

do. 

Philip  Doddridge 

17th 

do.  , 

John  W.  Green 

18th 

do. 

Littleton  W.  Tazewell 

l^Jth 

do. 

William  CampbeU 

20th 

do. 

George  Townes 

21st 

do. 

James  Pleasants 

22d 

do. 

John  Tahaferro 

23d 

do. 

Thomas  R.  Joynes 

24th 

do. 

On  motion  of  3Ir.  Johnson,  the  resolutions  introduced  on  the  first  day  of  the  sitting 
of  the  Convention,  by  Mr.  Doddridge,  were  referred  to  the  above  Committee ;  when 
the  House  adjourned  to  12  o'clock  to-morrow. 


THURSDAY,  October  S,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  12  o'clock,  which  it  is  understood  will  be  the  stated  hour 
of  meeting.    After  prayers  by  Bishop  Moore, 

Mr.  Madison  from  the  Select  Committee,  consisting  of  one  member  from  each  of 
the  24  Senatorial  Districts,  to  whom  the  duty  had  been  referred  of  devising  tlie  best 
mode  of  arranging  the  business  of  the  Convention,  made  the  following  Report : 

The  Committee  of  one  from  each  Senatorial  District,  appointed  to  enquire  into  the 
most  convenient  mode  of  proceeding  in  brino-ino-  to  the  consideration  of  the  Conven-  • 
tion,  such  amendments  as  mav  be  proposed  to  the  present  Constitution,  have  had  the 
same  under  consideration,  and  are  of  opinion  that  the  most  convenient  method  is  to 
adopt  the  following  resolutions,  viz  : 

1.  Resolved.  That  a  Committee  be  appointed  to  take  into  consideration  the  Bill  or 
Declaration  of  Rights,  and  to  report  to  this  Convention  whether  in  their  opinion  any, 
and  if  any,  what  amendments  are  necessary  therein. 

2.  Rcsolreil.  That  a  Committee  be  appointed  to  take  into  consideration  the  Legis- 
lative Department  of  Government,  as  established  by  the  present  Constitution,  and 
to  report  to  this  Convention,  either  a  substitute  for  the  same,  or  such  amendments - 

2 


]0  DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 

Uioreto,  as  in  tlieir  opinion  are  necessary,  or  tliat  no  substitute  or  amendment  is  ne- 

'i.  Rf  solrrtK  That  tlie  Ivxecntivo  Department  of  Government  as  established  by  the 
pn'-seut  Coustitntion,  be  referred  to  a  (Jommittee,  to  enquire  and  report  whether  any, 
and  if  auv,  wliat  amendments  are  necessary.  ,,.,11., 

4.  Rrsuh-nL  Tliat  tlie  Judicial  Department  of  Government  as  established  by  the 
present  Constitution,  be  referred  to  a  Committee,  to  enquire  and  report  whether  aJiy, 
and  if  any,  what  amendments  are  necessary  therein. 

r>.  Itrsnlrcd,  Tiiat  all  such  parts  of  the  present  Constitution  as  are  not  referred  by 
the  il.rt^oroing'resolutions,  be  referred  to  a  Committee,  to  enquire  and  report  whether 
any,  and  if  any,  what  amendments  are  necessary  therein. 

i).  J ir..-(>li:cd,' That  no  original  resolution  offered  to  the  Convention  proposing  any 
aniiuuhn'-Mit  to  the  CDustitulion  or  Declaration  of  Rights,  be  discussed  on  its  merits  in 
the  I  louse,  till  it  shall  have  been  referred. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Doddridge,  the  report  was  laid  on  the  table,  and  ordered  to  be 
printed. 

Mr.  Tazewell  then  said,  that  a.<3  he  took  it  for  granted  that  the  object  in  laymg  the 
fori'goinT  report  on  the  table  and  printing  it,  was  that  the  other  members  of  the 
ConventTfui  Avlio  had  not  been  members  of  the  Committee,  might  have  an  opportunity 
of  informing  tliemseh^es  of  the  contents  of  the  report,  he  presumed  it  would  be  agree- 
able to  thein  also,  to  be  made  acquainted  with  some  other  propositions  v/hich  had  been 
moved  in  the  Conmiittee,  but  rejected ;  under  this  persuasion,  he  would  move  that 
the  following  resohition,  which  he  had  himself  j)roposed  to  the  Committee,  but  which 
had  not  received  its  approbation,  slioukl  be  jirinted  and  laid  on  the  table  together  with 
the  report,  viz : 

.Rrsolvcd,  That  the  most  expedient  method  of  bringing  before  the  Convention  any 
amendments  to  the  Constitution  which  may  be  proposed,  will  be,  to  take  tip  the  ex- 
istinf  Constitution  or  form  of  Government  of  Virginia,  with  the  Declaration  of 
Rjo-lits,  and  regarding  them  for  the  purposes  of  examination  and  discussion,  merely, 
as  a  plan  proposed  and  reported  by  a  Select  Committee,  to  refer  the  same  to  a  Com- 
mittee of  the  v/hole  House,  there  to  be  examined  section  after  section,  and  to  be  dealt 
with  in  all  other  respects  as  a  bill  so  referred  by  the  House  to  that'Committee  usu- 
ally is. 

The  motion  was  agreed  to. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  that  under  impressions  similar  to  those  which  had  just  been  ex- 
pressed by  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk,  (Mr.  Tazewell)  he  would  move  the  printing 
of  the  two  fallowing  -resolutions,  which  he  had  had  the  honour  to  propose  in  the 
Committee,  and  Vvdiich  it  was  his  purpose  to  make  the  subject  hereafter  of  a  motion 
in  the  Convention. 

Rrsnlrcd,  That  so  much  of  the  Constitution  as  relates  to  .J;he  right  of  suffrage,  be 
referred  to  a  Committee  to  consider  and  report  whether  any,  and  if  any,  what  amend- 
ments are  necessary  therein. 

Resolved,  That  so  much  of  the  Constitution  as  relates  to  the  basis  of  representation, 
be  referred  to  a  Committee  to  consider  and  report  whether  any,  and  if  any,  what 
amendments  are  necessary  tJierein. 

Mr.  Brodnax  of  Dinwiddle,  observed  that  as  in  any  conceivable  disposition  of  the 
matter  to  be  submitted  to  the  Convention,  the  existing  Constitution  of  the  State,  to- 
gether witli  the  Declaration  of  Rights,  must  be  the  substratum  of  the  whole,  it  ap- 
peared proper  that  these  also  should  be  printed  and  should  be  in  the  hands  of  every 
member.  The  substance  of  them,  it  Avas  true,  was,  he  had  no  doubt,  familiar  to  the 
minds  of  all  the  gentlemen,  and  the  documents  themselves  might  be  consulted  in 
the  lil)rary,  but  as  they  would  be  a  perpetual  subject  of  reference  in  the  approaching 
discussions,  it  was  certainly  convenient  and  proper  that  they  should  be  printed,  toge- 
ther with  the  report  of  the  Select  Committee.  He  therefore  made  a  motion  to  that 
effect.,  whicli  v.'as  agreed  to. 

Mr.  Macrae,  from  the  Committee  appointed  to  revise  the  rules  of  the  House  of 
Dele(fate.=?,  made  a  report  upon  tlie  subject. 

After  som,e  conversation  between  Messrs.  Green  of  Culpeper,  Powell  of  Frederick, 
and  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  it  Avas  agreefi  to  take  up  this  report  and  proceed  to  act 
upon  it, 

The  rules  reported  were  thereupon  read  successively  at  the  Clerk's  table,  and  after 
some  verbal  corrections  in  the  14th  and  30th  rules,  "and  a  modification  of  the  32d, 
which  went  to  include  members  of  both  Houses  of  the  State  Legislature,  among  the 
persons  privileged  with  admission  to  tlie  floor  of  the  Convention  : 

On  motioii  of  Mr.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  the  7'th  rule  of  the  House  of  Delegates, 
which,  as  originally  reported,  forbids  a  member  to  vote  on  all  questions  in  which  he 
has  a  personal  interest,  was  so  amended  as  to  confine  this  prohibition  to  questions 
"  touching  his  own  conduct  in,  and  rights  and  privileges  as,  a  member  of  this  Con- 


DEBATES    OF    THE  COXTEXTIOX. 


11 


IMr.  L.  considered  tiiis  alteration  as  necessary,  both  as  better  expressing  the  true 
spirit  of  the  rule,  and  because  in  the  discussions  of  this  Convention,  very  mah}-  ques- 
tions must  of  necessity  arise,  in  which  every  member  would  have  a  personal  interest 
of  the  deepest  kind. 

JMr.  Alexander  of  iNlecklenburg,  was  desirous  farther  to  amend  this  rule  in  that 
pai't  of  it;  which  forbids  a  member  to  vete  on  any  question,  unless  he  was  present  when 
the  question  was  put.  Mr.  A.  considered  this  prohibition  as  involving  a  question  of 
grave  importance,  and  as  abridging  improperly  the  exercise  of  a  most  important  right. 
A  diiFerence  of  opinion-  might  exist  and  had  actually  been  expressed,  aa  to  the  con- 
struction of  the  phrase  ■'•when  the  question  w£is  put."'  The  understanding  of  its 
meaning  in  the  House  of  Delegates  vras.  that  the  question  is  put  in  the  sense  of-  this 
rule  when  it  is  stated  from  the  Chair  ;  but  in  the  House  of  Representatives  of  the 
United  States,  a  different  construction  prevailed :  here  the  question  was  understo-od 
as  being  put  to  each  member  only,  when  that  member  was  called  upon  to  vote  ;  then, 
the  question  was  put  to  him.  Mr.  A.  said,  he  would  put  a  case  to  shew  that  the  rule 
as  it  stood,  might  operate  great  injustice :  he  had  indeed,  himself,  been  subjected  to 
its  effects.  When  the  yeas  cind  nays  were  demanded,  the  roll  is  iisually  called  from 
east  to  west.  The  question  is  put,  a,nd  each  member  answers  to  his  name.  If  a 
member  residing  in  the  west  comes  in  while  it  is  calling,  he  is  preciude;d  firom  voting, 
although  his  name  has  not  yet  been  called,  because  the  question  has  been  put.  So  in 
the  House  of  Representatives,  when  the  yeas  and  nays  are  demanded,  the  names  of 
the  members  are  called  in  csiphabetical  order.  JLf  a  c-entleman  enters  the  Hall,  whose 
name  happens  to  stand  near  the  head  of  the  hst,  he  finds  that  the  Clerk  has  ah-eady 
called  it.  and  he  is,  of  course,  precluded  fi-om  voting,  while  another  gentleman  enter- 
ing at  the  same  moment,  but  having  the  good  fort"ane  to  stand  lower  cn  the  list,  is 
admitted  to  a  privilege  of  which  his^coUeague,  though  not  more  neghgent  than  him- 
self, and  equally  early  in  his  attendance,  is  deprived.  As  almost  everj-  question  likely 
to  be  presented' to  this  Convention,  would  be  of  weighty  consideration,  Mr.  A.  con- 
sidered it  as  hiofhly  important  thct  every  member  should  have  a  right  to  "^  ote  upon 
it,  provided  he  should  be  present  before  the  final  decision  was  announced  fi-em  the 
Chah-. 

Mr.  M"Coy  said  that  he  did  not  see  the  liai-dships  which  his  friend  saw  in  this  rule  : 
the  practice  in  the  House  of  Representatives  was,  that  members  not  in  the  House 
.when  the  Speaker  puts  the  question,  are  not  admitted  to  vote ;  but  when  the  yeas 
and  nays  are  taken,  the  question  is  considered  as  put  to  each  man  when  that  man's 
name  is  called.  When  the  members  were  called  in  alphabetical  order,  there  was 
some  hardship  in  the  result:  members  whose  names  begin  with  A  and  B  were  some- 
times taken  by  surprise,  but  that  could  not  happen  under  the  rule  as  interpreted  in 
the  House  of  Delegates:  but  even  if  some  hardship  did  occm',  Jlr.  Ivl' Coy  thought, 
it  best  upon  the  whole  to  let  the  rule  stand  as  tending  to  compel  members  to  be  pre- 
sent at  their  post.  The  more-  the  mis  was  relaxed,  the  greater  would  be  the  negh- 
gence  of  the  members. 

Sir.  Stanard  of  Spottsylvania,  observed  that  the  interpretation  of  the  phrase  in  the 
rule  had  been  so  definitively  fixed  by  the  practice  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  that  no 
sort  of  difficulty  could  occur  in  imderstanding  its  meaning.  The  construction  refer- 
red to  by  the  gentleman  n-om  Mecklenburg,  was  one  which  had  never  prevailed  here. 
No  additional  chance  of  voting  was  enjoyed  by  any  member  of  the  House  of  Dele- 
gates from  the  fact  of  his  name  standing  "low  npon  the  alphabet.  The  rules  and  the 
practice  of  that  House,  as  was  well  knovrn,  had  their  origm  in  the  Parhamentary  law 
of  England.  By  the  estabhshed  usage  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  no  question  was 
taken  as  definitively  stated  till  the  alternative  had  been  propounded.  If,  therefore,  a 
member  entered  the  House  after  the  afnrmative  votes  had  been  collected,  but  before 
the  members  of  the  opposite  opinion  had  been  called  upon  to  vote,  his  vote  was  re- 
ceived. When  the  yeas  and  nays  were  called  for,  so  soon  as  one  member  had  an- 
swered to  his  name,  the  questioii  before  the  House  was  considered  as  defhiitively 
propounded,  and  if  a  gentleman  entered  the  Hall  after  that  time,  his  vote  could  not 
be  received.'  Very  great  inconvenience  must  unavoidably  ensue,  should  the  Conven- 
tion depart  fi'om  this  well  estabhshed  rule.  He,  therefore,  earnestly  hoped  that  the 
amendment  would  mt  prevail, 

Mr.  Alexander  having  so  modified  Ins  amendment  as  to  forbid  voting  only  when  a 
member  had  not  been  present  before  the  final  decision  of  the  question : 

The  decision  was  taken  on  his  amendment,  and  it  was  rejected  by  a  large  majority. 

The  question  was  tlien  pat  on  the  vrhoie  report  as  amended,  and  carried  ?i€jn.  con. 

The  rules,  as  adopted,  v%'ere  as  follows : 

1.  No  member  shall  absent  hhnself  from  the  ser^dce  of  the  House  without  leave, 
unless  he  be  sick  eind  unable  to  attend. 

2.  When  anv  member  is  about  to  speak  in  debate,  or  dehver  any  matter  to  the 
House,  he  shall  rise  from  his  seat,  and  without  advancing  from  thence,  shall,  with 


12  DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 

due  respect,  address  himself  to  the  President,  confining  liimself  strictly  to  the  point 
iu  debate,  avoiding  all  indecent  and  disrespectful  anguage 

3.  No  men.ber  shall  speak  more  than  twice  m  the  same  debate  ^^^^^^^^J  ^^fj?;^^^^^ 

4.  A  question  being  once  determined,  must  stand  as  the  judgment  of  the  House, 
and  canu(^t  again  be  drawn  into  debate. 

5   While  the  President  is  reporting,  or  puttmg  any  question,  none  shall  entertain 
private  discourse,  read,  stand  up,  walk  into  or  out  of  the  House. 

^  G  No  member  shall  vote  on  any  question  touchmg  his  own  conduct  m,  or  rights 
and  privileges  as,  a  member  of  this  Convention,  or  in  any  other  case,  where  he  was 
not  present  when  the  question  was  put  by  the  President  or  Chairman  of  any  Com- 

T^'^Every  member  who  shall  be  in  the  House  when  any  question  is  put,  shall,  on  a 
division,  be  counted  on  the  one  side  or  the  other.  .,0       +        u  ii 

t!.  Each  day,  before  the  House  proceeds  to  any  other  business,  the  Secretary  shall 

read  the  Orders  of  the  Day.  ^  i    x  i      r       +1.  t^r.}^ 

y.  The  Secretary  shall  not  suffer  any  records  or  papers  to  be  taken  from  the  table, 
or  out  of  his  custody,  by  any  member  or  other  person. 

10  A  maiority  of'  the  meniljers  of  the  Convention  shall  be  necessary  to  proceed  to 
business,  and  every  question  shall  be  determined  according  to  the  vote  of  a  majority 
of  the  members  present.  Any  smaller  number  shall  be  sufficient  to  adjourn,  and  ht- 
teen  to  call  a  House,  and  send  for  the  absent,  and  make  any  order  for  their  censure  or 

nl'^wiien  the  House  is  to  rise,  every  member  shall  keep  his  seat  until  the  Presi- 
dent passes  him.  j  a 

12.  The  Journals  of  the  House  shall  be  daily  drawn  up  by  the  Secretary,  and  after 
bein(r  examined  by  the  President,  be  prhited,  and  one  copy  "be  delivered  to  the  Secre- 
tary ,°and  one  to  each  member  without  delay. 

13.  A  majority  of  any  Committee  shall  be  a  sufficient  number  to  proceed  to  bu- 
siness. .  .1 

14.  Any  person  shall  be  at  liberty  to  sue  out  an  original  writ  or  subpoena  m  chan- 
cery, in  order  to  prevent  a  bar  by  the  statute  of  limitations,  or  to  file  any  bill  in  equity, 
to  examine  witnesses  thereupon,  for  the  sole  purpose  of  preserving  their  testimony 
ao-ainst  any  member  of  this  House,  notwithstanding  his  privilege;  provided  that  the 
cferk,  after  having  made  out  and  signed  such  original  writ,  shall  not  deliver  the  same 
to  the  party,  or  tcTany  other,  during  the  continuance  of  that  privilege. 

1.5.  Any  person  sumuaoned  to  attend  this  liouse,  or  any  Committee  thereof,  as  a 
witness  in  any  matter  depending  before  them,  shall  be  privileged  from  arrest,  during 
his  comino"  to,  attending  on,  or  going  from  the  House  or  Committee ;  and  no  such 
witness  shall  be  obliged  to  attend,  until  the  party,  at  whose  request  he  shall  be  sum- 
moned, do  pay,  or  secure  to  him,  fi)r  his  attendance  and  travelling,  the  same  allowance 
which  is  made  to  witnesses  attending  the  General  Court. 

IG.  If  any  person  shall  tamper  with  any  witness,  in  respect  to  his  evidence  to  be 
given  in  this  House,  or  any  Committee  thereof,  or  directly,  or  indirectly,  endeavor  to 
deter  or  hinder  any  person  from  appearing,  or  giving  evidenc-e,  the  same  is  declared 
to  be  a  high  crime,  or  misdemeanor ;  and  this  House  will  proceed,  with  the  utmost 
severity,  against  such  ofTender. 

17.  No  person  shall  be  taken  into  custody  by  the  Sergeant  at  Arms,  on  any  com- 
plaint of  a  breach  of  privilege,  until  the  matter  of  such  complaint  shall  be  examined 
by  the  Committee  of  Privileges  and  Elections,  and  reported  to  the  House. 

18.  The  Sergeant's  fees  shall  be  as  follows,  to  wit :  for  taking  any  person  into  cus- 
tody, two  dollars ;  for  every  day  he  shall  be  detained  in  custody,  two  dollars  ;  for 
sending  a  messenger  to  take  any  person  into  custody  b:;^  warrant  from  the  President, 
eight  cents  per  mile  for  going,  and  the  same  for  returning,  besides  ferriages. 

ly.  On  a  call  of  the  House,  the  doors  shall  not  be  shut  against  any  member,  until 
his  name  is  once  enrolled. 

20.  When  any  member  shall  keep  his  seat  two  days,  after  having  obtained  leave  of 
absence,  such  leave  shall  be  void. 

21.  No  business  shall  be  introduced,  taken  up,  or  considered,  after  12  o'clock,  until 
the  Orders  of  the  Day  shall  be  disposed  of. 

22.  Any  member,  on  his  motion  made  for  that  purpose,  on  being  seconded,  provided 
seven  of  the  members  present  be  in  favor  of  the  motion,  shall  have  a  right  to  have 
the  ayes  and  noes  taken  upon  the  determination  of  any  question,  provided  he  shall 
give  notice  of  his  intention  to  call  the  ayes  and  noes,  before  the  question  be  put,  and 
in  such  case  the  House  shall  not  divide,  or  be  counted  on  the  question,  but  the  names 
of  the  members  shall  be  c  died  over  by  tlie  Secretary,  and  the  ayes  and  noes  shall  be 
respectively  entered  on  the  Journal,  and  the  question  shall  be  decided  as  a  majority  of 
votes  shall  thereupon  appear  :  provided  that  after  the  ayes  and  noes  shall  be  separately 
taken,  and  before  they  are  counted,  or  entered  on  the  Journal,  the  Secretary  shall 
read  over  the  names  of  those  who  voted  in  the  affirmative,  and  of  those  who  voted  in 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


13 


the  negative ;  and  any  member  shall  have  hberty  at  such  reading  to  correct  any  mis- 
take wiaich  may  have  been  connnitted  in  hsting  liis  name,  either  in  tlie  athrmative  or 
negative. 

2'S.  The  petitioner  who  contests  the  election  of  a  member  returned  to  serve  in  this 
Convention  is  entitled  to  receive  his  Avages  only  from  the  day  on  vliich  such  peti- 
-  tioner  is  declared  duly  elected. 

24.  Select  Committees  shall  be  composed  of  some  number  not  less  than  five  nor 
more  than  thirteen. 

25.  It  shall  be  the  rule  of  the  House,  in  all  cases  of  balloting,  to  fill  one  vacancy 
only  at  a  time. 

2(3.  The  Committee  of  Privileges  and  Elections  shaU  report  to  the  House  in  all 
cases  of  privilege  or  contested  election,  to  them  referred,  the  prmci|)ies  and  reasons 
upon  wliich  their  resolutions  shall  be  founded. 

27.  In  all  cases  of  balloting  for  the  election  of  any  officer  by  this  Convention,  if  ojji 
the  first  ballot  no  person  shall  have  a  majority  of  the  whole  number,  on  the  second 
ballot  the  person  who  had  the  smallest  number  of  votes  shall  not  be  balloted  for;  and 
so  on  each  succeeding  ballot  till  some  person  shall  have  a  majority  of  the  whole. 

28.  In  all  cases  wherein  a  division  of  the  House  on  any  question  propounded  from 
the  Chair,  is  rendered  necessary,  in  the  opinion  of  the  President,  by  the  equality  of 
somid,  or  required  by  the  motion  of  any  member,  the  members  voting  on  the  ques- 
tion which  occasions  such  division,  shall  be  required  to  rise  in  their  places ;  and  if  on 
a  general  view  of  the  House,  a  doubt  still  remain  in  the  President,  or  any  member 
thereof,  on  what  side  the  majority  is,  the  members  shall  be  counted  standing  in  their 
places,  either  by  the  President,  or  by  two  members  of  opposite  opinions  on  the  ques- 
tion, to  be  deputed  for  that  purpose  by  the  President. 

29.  The  Committee  appointed  to  examine  the  ballot-boxes  shall  count  no  blanks 
therein. 

30.  The  documents  ordered  to  be  printed  by  the  House  shall  be  printed  on  paper  of 
the  same  size  of  the  Journal  of  tliis  Convention,  and  a  copy  shall  be  bound  with 
each  Journal,  to  be  furnished  to  the  members  at  the  end  of  the  session  :  and  it  shall 
be  the  duty  of  the  printer  of  the  House  to  print  one  hundred  additional  copies  of 
each  docmnent  ordered  to  be  printed  for  the  above  purpose. 

31.  It  shall  be  the  duty  of  the  Committee  of  Privileges  and  Elections  to  examine 
the  certificates  of  election  furnished  by  the  sherifis,  in  order  to  ascertain  the  members 
of  this  Convention  duly  elected,  and  to  report  thereupon. 

32.  Seats  withm  this  House,  such  as  the  President  shall  direct,  shall  be  set  apart 
for  the  use  of  the  members  of  the  General  Assembly  and  of  the  Executive,  of  the 
Judges  of  the  Superior  Com-ts  of  this  State,  and  of  the  United  States,  and  of  such 
other  persons  as  the  President  may  think  proper  to  invite  within  the  bar. 

33.  It  shall  be  a  standing  rule  of  the  House  that  the  President  be  authorised  to  call 
a.ny  member  of  tlie  House  to  occupy  the  Chair,  and  exercise  the  functions  of  Presi- 
dent, until  he  ma}'  resume  the  Chair  ;  with  tins  proviso,  that  the  power  given  by  this 
rule  shall  not  be  construed  to  confer  on  the  President  a  right  to  place  any  member  ia 
the  Chair  of  the  President  for  a  longer  period  than  one  dax. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Doddridge  the  Jcurnal  and  other  papers  before  referred  to  were 
ordered  to  be  printed  in  the  octavo  form. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  fiercer,  it  was  ordered,  tliat  t]ie  act  of  the  State  Legislature 
which  authorised  the  organization  of  tliis  Convention,  be  added  to  the  papers  to  be 
printed,  and  then  the  House  adjourned. 


FPJDAY,  October  9,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  12  o'clock,  and  its  sitting  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the 
Rev.  Bishop  Moore. 

Mr.  Scott  firom  the  Committee  on  Privileges  and  Elections,  made  the  following 
report : 

The  Committee  of  Privileges  and  Elections  have  performed  the  duty  assigned  them 
by  the  rules  of  the  House,  and  beg  leave  to  report,  that  they  have  examined  tlie  re- 
turns of  the  sheriffs,  and  find  that  the  foUowing  persons  have  been  duly  elected 
members  of  this  Convention,  to  vrit : 

From  the  District  composed  of  the  counties  of  Amelia.  Chesterfield.  Cumberland,  Not- 
toway, Poichntan,  and  the  toicn  of  Petersburg — John  W.  Jones,  Benjamin  W.  Leigh, 
Samuel  Taylor  and  William  B.  Giles. 

From  the  District  composed  of  the  counties  of  Bruiiswich,  Diniciddie,  Lunenburg  and 
MecMenhurg — Wilham  H.  Brodnax,  George  C.  Dromgoole,  Mark  Alexander  and  Wil- 
Ham  O.  <TOode. 


14 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


From  the  District  composrd  of  the  counties  of  Charles  City,  Elizahcth  Cifij,  James 
Citi/,  Henrico,  jVciD  Kent,  Warioick,  York,  ond  the  Cities  of  Richmond  and  li  illiams- 
bursr—John  IVIarsliall.  John  Tyler,  Philip  N.  Nicholas  and  John  B.  Clcpton. 

Fro/n  the  District  composed  of  the  counties  of  Shenandoah  and  Rockingham — V/illiam 
Anderson,  Samuel  Coftinan,  Peachy  Harrison  and  Jacob  D.  WiUiamson. 

From  the  District  composed  of  the  counties  of  Jiugjista,  Rockbridge  and  Pc7idIeto7i — 
Briscoe  G.  Baldwin,  Chapman  Johnson,  William  M'Coy  and  Sainuel  M'D.  Moore. 

From  the  District  composed  of  the  counties  of  Monroe,  Greenhrier,  Bath,  Botetourt, 
^Qlhghanij,  Pocahontas  and  Mcholas — Andrew  Beirne,  William  Smith,  Fleming  B. 
Milfer  and  John  Baxter. 

From  the  District  composed  of  the  counties  of  Sussex,  Surry,  ScxdharrqUon,  Isle  of 
Witrht,  Prince  George  and  Greensville — John  Y.  Aiason,  James  Trezvant,  Augustine 
Claiborne  and  John  Urquhart. 

•  From  the  DisLrict  composed  of  the  counties  of  Charlotte,  Halifax  and  Prince  Edward — 
John  Randolph,  William  Leigh,  Kichard  Logan  and  R.ichard  N.  Venable. 

From  the  District  composed  of  the  counties  of  Spottsylvaiiia,  Louisa,  Orange  and  Ma- 
dison— James  Madison,  Philip  P.  Barbour,  David  Watson  and  Robert  Stanard. 

From  the  District  composed  of  tlic  counties  of  Loudou7t  and  Fairfax — James  Monroe, 
Charles  F.  Mercer,  Wilham  H.  Fitzhugh  and  Richard  H.  Henderson. 

From  the  District  composed  of  the  counties  of  Frederick  and  Jefferson — John  R.  Cooke, 
Alfred  PL  Powell,  Hierome  L.  Opie  and  Thomas  Griggs,  jr. 

From  the  District  composed  of  the  counties  of  Hampshire,  Hardy,  Berkeley  and  Mor- 
gan— William  Naylor,  William  Donaldson,  Elisha  Boyd  and  Philip  C.  Pendleton. 

From  the  District  composed  of  the  counties  of  Washington,  Lee,  Scott,  Russell  and 
Tazeiccll — John  B.  George,  Andrew  M'Millan,  Edward  Campbell  and  Wilham 
Byars. 

From  the  District  composed  of  the  counties  of  King  William,  King  ^  Quec?i,  Essex, 
Caroline  and  Hanover — John  Roane,  William  P.  Taylor,  Richard  Morris  and  James 
M.  Garnett. 

From  the  District  composed  of  the  co7iniics  of  Wylhc,  Montgomery,  Grayson  and 
Giles — Gordon  ClojA,  Henley  Chapman,  John  P.  Mathews  and  William  Oglesby. 

From  the  District  comjjoscd  of  the  counties  of  Kanaivha,  Mason,  Cabell,  Randolph,  - 
Harriso7i,  Lewis,  Wood  and  Logan — Edward  S.  Duncan,  John  Laidley,  Lewis  Smn- 
jners  and  Adam  See. 

From  the  District  composed  of  the. counties  of  Ohio,  Tyler,  Brooke,  Monongalia  and 
Preston — Charles  S.  Morgan,  Philip  Doddridge,  Alexander  Campbell  and  Eugenius 
M.  Wilson. 

From  the  District  composed  of  the  counties  of  Fauquier  aiid  Culpeper — John  S.  Bar- 
bour, John  Scott,  John  Macrae  and  John  W.  Green. 

From,  the  District  composed  of  tJic  counties  of  jXoifolk,  Princess  Anne,  JVansemond 
and  lite  Boroiigli  of  Norfolk — Littleton  W.  Tazewell,  Joseph  Prentis,  Robert  B.  Taylor 
and  George. Loyall. 

From  the  District  composed  of  the  counties  of  Campbell,  Buckingha7n  and  Bedford — 
William  Campbell,  Samuel  Claytor,  Callohill  Mennis  and  James  Saunders. 

Fro7Ji  the  District  co7nposed  of  the  .counties  of  FrankVm,  Patrick,  Heiiry  and  Pittsyl- 
vania— George  Townes,  Benjamin  W.  S.  Cabell,  Joseph  Martin  and  Archibald 
Stuart. 

Fro7n  the  District  co7nposcd  of  the  counties  of  Mbemarle,  Atnherst,  Nelson,  Fluvan7ia 
and  Goochland — James  Pleasants,  William  F.  Gordon,  Lucas  P.  Thompson  and  Tho- 
mas Massie,  jr. 

From  the  District  co7nposcd,  of  the  counties  of  King  George,  JVcstinoreUmd,  Lansaster, 
Northumherland,  Richmond,  Stafford  and  Prince  WilUa7n — William  A.  G.  Dade,  Ellyson 
Currie,  John  Taliaferro  and  Fleming  Bates. 

From  the  District  composed  of  the  counties  of  Matthews,  Middlesex,  Accomack,  North- 
ampto7i  and  Gloucester — Thomas  R.  Joynes,  Thomas  Bayly,  Calvin  H.  Read  and 
Abel  P.  Upshur. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Mercer,  the  report  was  laid  on  the  table. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Fitzhugh  of  Fairfax,  a  Committee  was  appointed  to  fix  the  com- 
pensation to  be  allowed  to  officers  of  the  Convention;  whereupon,  the  following  gen- 
tlemen were  appointed  by  the  Chair,  viz:  Messrs.  Fitzhugh,  Loyall,  Stanard,  Barbour 
of  Orange,  and  Bayly. 

Mr.  Doddridge  moved  that  the  report  of  the  Committee  of  twenty-four,  should  now 
be  taken  up  for  discussion,  but  expressed  his  wilhngness  to  withdraw  the  motion, 
should  any  member  express  a  wish  for  farther  time  to  consider  it. 

No  such  wish  being  expressed,  the  motion  was  agreed  to,  and  the  report  taken  up 
accordingly.    Previous  to  its  discussion,  however, 

Mr.  Mercer  of  Loudoun,  explained  to  the  House  the  reasons  why  he  should  not 
offer  the  resolutions  which  he  had  yesterday  laid  upon  the  table,  and  which  had  been 
printed  together  with  the  report  of  the  Committee.    He  stated  it  to  be  his  intention 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONTENTION. 


15 


to  offer  at  a  suitable  time,  the  resolution  wliich  he  had  yesterday  read  in  his  place, 
and  which  had  subsequently  been  laid  upon  the  table  :  the  object  and  purport  of 
wliich  he  now  explained.  It  was  to  suspend  that  rule  of  proceeding  wliich  limits  the 
number  of  members  composing  Select  Committees  to  tliirteen;  with  a  view  to  move 
the  reference  of  the  first  and  fifth  resolutions  reported,  to  a  Select  Committee,  consist- 
ing of  one  member  from  each  Senatorial  District,  and  then  to  refer  the  tliird,  fourth 
and  fifth  resolutions  to  similar  Committees.  His  design  in  this  proposition  was  to 
avail  liimself  of  all  the  intelligence  of  the  body  in  devising  and  maturing  the  best 
course  to  be  pursued  in  arriving  at  the  objects  of  its  appointment.  Should  this  plan 
be  adopted,  its  effect  would  be  to  bring  into  employment  the  whole  faculty  of  the 
House :  the  talent,  knowledge  and  v/isdom  of  all  the  members  would  thus  be  brought 
into  requisition,  and  exerted  at  one  and  the  same  tune.  -  Mr.  M.  said,  he  had  thought 
it  his  duty  to  give  this  explanation  by  way  of  apology  for  not  now  offering  the  reso- 
lutions, which  at  his  request  had  been  laid  on  the  table  and  printed. 

I\Ir.  Tazewell,  of  Norfolk  Borough,  now  rose  and  said  that  it  would  be  more  sa- 
tisfactory to  him,  if  the  scheme  to  which  he  was  desirous  of  offering  his  own  resolu- 
tion as  a  substitute,  was  made  by  its  advocates  as  perfect  as  they  desired  it  to  be,  be- 
fore his  substitute  was  considered  :  he  had  no  wish  to  urge  his  own  proposition  as  a 
substitute  to  another,  wliile  that  other  was  confessedly  in  an  imperfect  form :  he  de- 
sired, on  the  contrary,  that  gentlemen  would  first  make  their  proposition  as  perfect  as 
they  could,  and  when  they  had  done  this,  that  the  House  should  judge  between  the 
scheme  thus  complete,  and  that  wliich  he  presented  to  it.  But,  if  the  gentlemen 
who  had  reported  the  resolutions  now  before  the  Convention,  were  willing  to  wave 
tiiis  advantage,  and  leave  their  plan  as  it  was,  he  should  now  proceed  to  redeem  the 
pledge  which  he  had  given  to  the  Convention  yesterday,  and  move  as  a  substitute  for 
the  resolutions,  reported  by  the  Committee  of  twenty-four,  that  wliich,  at  his  request, 
had  been  printed  and  appended  to  them. 

Mr.  Tazewell  then  offered  tlie  following-resolution  : 

Resolved,  That  the  most  expedient  method  of  bringing  before  the  Convention  any 
amendments  to  the  Constitution  which  may  be  proposed,  will  be,  to  take  up  the  ex- 
isting Constitution  or  form  of  Government  of  Virginia,  with  the  Declaration  of  Rights, 
and  regarding  them  for  the  purposes  of  examination  and  discussion,  merely,  as  a  plan 
proposed  and  reported  by  a  Select  Committee,  to  refer  the  same  to  a  Committee  of  the 
whole  House,  there  to  be  examined  section  after  section,  and  to  be  dealt  with  in  all 
other  respects  as  a  bill  so  refeiTed  by  the  House  to  that  Connnittee  usually  is. 

In  making  tliis  motion,  Mr.  President,  it  is  but  fair,  said  Mr.  T.  to  preface  it  by 
stating  to  the  Convention  that  the  same  motion  was  made  by  me  in  the  Committee, 
and  rejected  by  a  majority.  But,  Sir,  notv.'ithstanding  this,  I  deem  it  due  to  the  in- 
terest and  importance  of  the  subject,  as  well  as  to  the  solicitude  of  gentlemen  who, 
not  having  been  members  of  the  Committee,  have  enjoyed  no  opportunity  of  record- 
ing their  opinions  in  the  case,  to  make  this  motion,  in  order  that,  at  least,  every  mem- 
ber of  this  body  may  have  the  opportunity  of  expressing  here  liis  views  and  senti- 
ments on  the  subject. 

In  examining  the  two  schemes  which  are  now  before  the  Convention,  it  must  at 
once  be  perceived  by  every  gentleman,  that  in  neither  is  there  any  principle  involved. 
Each  of  them  contemplates  only  the  most  convenient  mode  of  conducting-  the  busi- 
ness before  us  :  it  is  a  question  merely  of  expediency  and  convenience.  The  simple 
question  to  be  settled  is,  by  which  of  two  modes  proposed,  can  the  task  imposed  upon 
us  by  om-  constituents  be  best  accomplished.  The  discussion  is,  therefore,  narrowed 
down  to  a  comparison  of  the  different  degrees  of  convenience  presented  by  the  two 
propositions.  The  difference  between  them  Ues  in  tins  only.  By  the  scheme  con- 
tained in  my  resolution,  the  existing  form  of  Government  is  to  be  referred  at  once  to 
the  whole  body,  acting  in  Committee  of  the  Whole,  and  to  undergo  a  detailed  exami- 
nation there.  The  whole  scheme  will  be  before  the  whole  body  at  the  same  time. 
Under  such  a  state  of  things,  every  step  that  we  take  will  be  in  reality  a  step  in  ad- 
vance :  whatever  we  do  will  diminish,  so  far,  what  remains  to  be  done.  But  what 
will  be  the  effect  of  adopting  the  scheme  reported  by  the  Committee  ?  You  dissect 
the  subject  submitted  to  you.  and  distribute  its  several  parts  to  distinct  and  indepen- 
dent Committees.  What  then  will  be  the  condition  of  the  body  ?  If  my  plan  be 
adopted,  we  shall,  at  once,  on  the  spm*  of  the  occasion,  begin  to  act.  The  Constitu- 
tion will  be  printed  immediately ;  we  shall  forthwith  commence  its  revision ;  we 
shall  make  actual  progress  in  omx  business,  this  very  day,  and  so  de  die  in  diem,  and 
the  entire  examination  will  very  soon  be  completed.  But  if  you  pursue  the  other 
course,  you  cut  up  the  whole  subject  into  five,  six  or  seven  parts,  and  distribute  these 
five,  six  or  seven  parts,  among  five,  six  or  seven  separate  and  distinct  Conunittees  ; 
when  this  is  done,  what  will  remain  to  the  body.^*  Nothing,  Sir.  You  have  a  Com- 
mittee for  what  belongs  to  the  Executive  Department  of  the  Government ;  another 
Connnittee  for  what  pertains  to  the  Legislative  Department;  another  for  what  per- 
tains to  the  Judiciary  :  and  another  Committee  for  what  pertains  to  neither  Executive, 


16 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Legislative  nor  Judicial,  and  then,  Sir,  what  is  this  body  itself  to  be  doing?  It  must 
stand  with  arms  folded,  until  the  Committees,  or  some  one  Committee,  give  it  some- 
thing to  do.  Its  faculties  all  suspended,  it  must  meet  only  to  adjourn  ;  and  how  long 
sucli  a  state  of  things  shall  continue,  must  depend  solely  on  the  diligence_  of  the 
Committees.  But  by  my  plan,  the  body  can  act  at  once;  can  act  to-day,  this  very 
day  it  can  begin  and  malce  actual  progress  in  the  great  duties  assigned  to  it  by  the 
people. 

But,  Sir,  this  is  not  all  that  will  ensue  upon  the  adoption  of  the  report  which  has 
been  presented  by  the  Committee.  The  action  of  this  body  must  be  suspended,  not 
only  till  some  one  of  the  Committees  shall  report,  but  till  one  certain  particular  Com- 
mittee shall  report.  We  are  to  have  one  Committee  on  the  Bill  of  Rights ;  another 
Committee  on  the  Executive  ;  another  on  the  Legislative;  another  on  the  Judiciary 
Department ;  another  on  some  part  of  the  plan  of  Government  which  is  neither  Ex- 
ecutive, Legislative  nor  Judicial  in  its  character,  (though  what  that  can  be,  I  do  not 
understand  J  for  all  writers  that  I  have  read,  maintain  that  every  function  of  Govern- 
ment is  of  necessity,  either  Executive,  Legislative,  or  Judicial  in  its  character  :)  thus, 
Sir,  we  are  to  have  five  Committees  in  operation  all  at  one  and  the  same  time.  On 
which  of  their  reports  must  this  body  first  act  ?  On  that  relating  to  the  Executive  ? 
No,  Sir;  on  that  relating  to  the  Judiciary.?  No,  Sir;  on  that  which  relates  to  neither 
of  the  Departments  of  Government  ?  No,  Sir.  This  body  cannot  act  if  all  these  re- 
ports were  received,  until  the  Committee  on  the  Legislative  Department  have  brought 
in  its  report ;  for  this  Department  is  universally  and  justly  held  to  be  the  foundation  of 
the  system  of  all  Government.  How  vain  were  it  to  proceed  to  any  other  part  of  the 
Constitution,  till  we  had  first  settled  that  which  is  the  supreme  power  in  the  State  ! 
How  absurd  to  set  about  erecting  an  edifice,  and  to  begin  at  the  top  !  To  attempt  to 
proceed  till  the  Legislative  Committee  shall  have  reported,  must  involve  you  in 
contradictions  and  difficulties  at  every  step  !  For  example  ;  you  come  .to  take  up  the 
subject  of  the  Judiciary  ;  the  very  first  question  must  be,  how  many  judges  are  to  be 
appointed  ?  What  shall  be  their  duties  ?  What  their  compensation  ?  You  take  up  the 
report  of  tlie  Executive  Committee,  and  your  first  enquiry  is,  what  power  shall  your 
Governor  have  ?  Shall  it  be  concurrent  or  exclusive  ?  But  all  these  things  must  de- 
pend on  the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee  ;  the  details  in  the  investigations  of 
that  Committee,  are  necessarily  great ;  they  must  unavoidably  consume  a  great  deal 
of  time  ;  but  be  the  delay  ever  so  great,  the  Convention  must  wait  till  that  Commit- 
tee shall  have  completed  its  report ;  till  then  the  whole  body  must  remain  on  its  oars, 
with  nothing  to  do. 

Nor  is  this  all.  He  is  little  acquainted  with  the  nature  of  Government,  who  does 
not  at  once  perceive  that  in  distributing  its  several  functions  into  various  Departments, 
it  is  utterly  impossible  to  keep  them  completely  distinct  from  each  other ;  do  what  you 
will,  like  the  colours  of  the  rainbov/,  they  will  necessarily  run  into  each  other,  and  be- 
come more  or  less  blended  together.  The  ingenuity  of  man,  never  yet  has  devised 
a  form  of  Government,  in  which  the  powers  of  the  different  Departments,  were  not 
more  or  less  confounded.  What,  then,  becomes  of  the  Committees  proposed  by  the 
report  before  you.?  We  are  to  have  one  on  the  Executive  Department;  another  on 
the  Legislative  ;  another  on  the  Judiciary  ;  and  another  on  things  anomalous.  The 
first  question  to  be  settled,  will  necessarily  be,  what  part  of  the  Constitution  is  to  be 
referred  to  tliis  last  Committee.  If  it  is  not  to  touch  things  Legislative,  nor  things 
Executive,  nor  things  Judicial,  it  can,  as  I  conceive,  have  nothing  to  do.  If  it  does 
touch  them,  or  either  of  them,  what  happens  ?  You  have  two  distinct  independent 
bodies,  acting  at  the  same  time  upon  the  same  subject ;  and  in  all  human  probability, 
rendering  to  this  body  difierent  and  conflicting  reports.  Sir,  it  must  be  so.  It  can- 
not be  otherwise.  Their  duties  are  co-ordinate  ;  their  powers  the  same  ;  and  unless 
they  exhibit  more  of  unanimity  than  has  ever  yet  been  witnessed  among  mankind, 
they  must  and  will  differ  from  each  other.  Sir,  it  is  asking  too  much,  to  expect  that 
gentlemen  so  situated,  should  concur  in  their  reports.  What  follows  ?  Each  of  these 
conflicting  reports  will  be  referred  to  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  and  then  the  Con- 
vention will  have  to  begin  just  where  I  wish  them  to  begin  now.  Your  Executive 
Committee  and  your  Legislative  Committee  both,  for  instance,  report  in  relation  to  the 
veto  of  the  Governor.  One  says  he  shall  have  an  absolute  veto;  or  a  qualified  veto. 
The  other  that  he  shall  have  no  Veto  at  all.  Both  these  reports  come  into  the  Com- 
mittee of  the  Whole  ;  we  take  up  one  and  decide  upon  it,  and  then  comes  a  new  re- 
port and  a  new  discussion.  We  have  passed  on  the  report  of  the  Legislative  Commit- 
tee, and  then  comes  in  the  report  of  the  Executive  Committee.  The  first  question 
which  will  present  itself  must  be  a  question  of  order  ;  and  thus  the  Convention  will 
soon  find  itself  involved  in  the  meshes  which  are  of  all  others,  the  most  unpleasant 
and  perplexing.  But  suppose  you  get  clear  of  the  question  of  order  ;  then  comes 
each  Committee,  urging  and  defending  its  own  views;  and  on  the  next  report  the 
same  scene  must  be  acted  again ;  and  so  over  and  over<igain,  so  long  as  there  remains 
any  other  Committee  to  report.    Thus  the  scheme  proposed  by  the  Committee,  must 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


17 


necessarily  involve  a  vaste  of  the  time  of  the  C«onvention  :  the  stripping  it  of  all 
power  of  action  until  the  Committees  shall  please  to  give  it  something  to  do  :  the  ac- 
tion of  different  independent  Committees  on  the  same  subjects ;  the  re-examination 
of  discussions  already  gone  thi'ough  with,  and  the  endless  conflict  of  contradictory 
opinions,  each  urged  by  gentlemen  already  pledged  by  their  votes  in  Conmiittee  ;  each 
and  all  of  Triiich  present  insuperable  objections  to  the  adoption  of  such  a  scheme,  while 
to  that  which  I  have  had  the  honour  of  proposing,  none  of  them  apply  in  whole  or  in 
part. 

But  there  exists  another  objection ;  more  perhaps  in  appearance  than  in  fact,  but  one 
which  I  confess,  weighs  heavily  with  me.    A  bare  majority  of  the  people  of  Virginia, 
the  majority  was  very  small  indeed,  have  given  their  decision  in  favoin:  of  the  call  of 
tliis  Convention.    A  most  respectable  minority,  (less  by  only  a  few  votes  than  the 
majority  which  called  us  here.)  though  they  admit  the  existence  of  some  defects  in 
the  existing  Constitution  ;  yet  think  it     better  to  bear  the  ills  we  have,  than  fly  to 
others  that  we  know  not  of."'    This  minority  is  every  way  respectable,  as  much  so  in 
character  as  numbers.    And  of  what  is  the  majority  composed  1  Of  a  most  mixed  and 
heterogeneous  mass,  of  which  I  will  ventm-e  to  affirm,  that  there  are  not  ten  men  who 
agree  in  their  objections  to  the  Constitution.    Each  man  has  an  objection  of  liis  ovrn ; 
all  they  agree  in  is,  that  they  are  objectors.    Well,  Sir,  when  one  of  the  reports  of 
these  Cormnittees  shall  come  in,  what  wihbe  the  consequence    each  man  will  be  ac- 
tuated by  his  own  individual  objection,  and  will  of  course,  struggle  for  his  own  opin- 
ion.   In  the  mean  while,  what  becomes  of  the  minority  of  the  people  i    Is  there  no 
necessity  of  looking;  at  all  to  their  opinions  ?  To  their  prejudices Yes,  Sir,  to  their 
false  notions,  if  you  please  to  call  them  so  ?  Will  a  wise  statesman  ever  disregard  the 
opinion  of  his  people?  No,  Sir,  if  he  did.  he  would  be  no  longer  wise.    Sir,  we  must 
have  regard,  and  a  respectfiil  regard,  to  the  opinions  of  the  people  of  Virgina.  What 
is  proposed  to  you,  Sir  i  Instead  of  taking  up  a  Constitution  to  which  a  portion  of  that 
people  have  been  long  attached,  and  considering  it  section  by  section,  and  word  by 
word,  that  we  may  cautiously  discover  and  remedy  its  defects,  by  one  fell  swoop  you 
seize  at  once  upon  the  whole ;  teaj  it  limbless,  and  scatter  its  various  fragments  to  the 
wmds  of  Heaven  :  then  you  set  to  work  to  gather  these  scattered  and  dissevered  limbs, 
and  you  attempt  to  join  and  dove-tail  them  together,  and  piece  them  up  into  some  other  . 
form.    What  will  be  the  pubhc  impression  from  such  a  procedure    The  public  will 
very  naturally  conclude,  that  this  Convention  has  determined  to  destroy  at  a  blow, 
every  vestige  of  their  Old  Constitution.    This  is  the  notion  tha.t  must  go  abroad  ;  the 
people  will  at  once  believe  that  you  are  resolved  to  explode  every  thing  at  a  blast,  and 
then  to  build  upon  the  same,  or  on  a  diiierent  fomidation,  a  Government,  vdiich  l)ut 
few  can  hope,  icill  do  as  much  for  the  pubhc  happiness  and  prosperity  as  that  you  de- 
stroy lias  done.    Sir,  it  is  due  to  this  aflectionate  reverence,  the  people  bear  to  their 
long-tried  form  of  Government,  to  deal  tenderly  with  it ;  it  becomes  us  to  talie  up  this 
beloved  offspring  of  theirs  with  every  feeling  of  kind  regard,  to  extol  its  virtues  and 
to  lay  our  correcting  hand  upon  its  vices  alone.    Thus,  I  have  endeavored  to  show, 
that  not  only  the  convenience  of  the  body,  but  the  good  opinion  of  tlie  people,  whose 
voice  has  brought  us  here,  requires  the  adoption  of  the  scheme  I  have  proposed. 

There  are  other  considerations  besides  these  which  ought  to  lead  you  to  the  cora-se 
I  advocate ;  which  ought  to  warn  you  to  aim  no  fell  and  reckless  blow  at  the  existing 
Constitution.  Will  you  dissect,  will  you  dissever  the  body  said  to  be  gangrenous,  be- 
fore you  know  where  the  gangrene  is  ^  Will  you  at  once  cut  into  tlie  vitals  and  separate 
it  limb  from  limb,  under  pretence  of  searcliing  for  the  unsoimd  part.^  By  whom  was 
this  Government  formed  ?  By  a  body  which,  I  "s^dll  say,  united  as  much  wisdom  as  can 
be  fomid  any  where  ;  with  as  much  public  virtue  as  will  ever  again  be  assembled.  Is 
tliis  an  instrmnent  to  be  torn  to  pieces  and  distributed  fragment  by  fragment  to  Com- 
mittees of  tliirteen  men  ?  Is  it  not  due  to  such  a  docmnent,  that  we  shall  contemplate 
the  whole  of  it  at  once  1  That  we  shall  take  a  view  of  its  parts  as  sustaining  their  re- 
spective relations  to  each  other  and  to  the  whole  ?  Can  we  judge  of  it  correctly  if 
you  judge  of  it  only  by  parts  Is  it  ^\'ise  thus  to  judge  of  any  thing  compounded  and 
complex  Is  it  not  the  most  ready  course  to  err different  course  is  surely  due  to 
tlie  character  and  the  virtues  of  those  who  formed  the  Constitution.-  And  ftu-tner, 
Sir,  is  nothing  due  to  upvv  ards  of  fifty  years  experience  ?  This  Constitution  has  been 
in  operation  for  fifty-four  years  :  it  has  borne  us  safely  through  peace  and  through 
waT  ;  through  all  tiie  excitement  of  party  contest,  as  well  as  the  calmness  of  more 
tranquil  times :  And  is  there  in  tliis  body  a  single  member,  or  is  there  a  single  one 
of  our  constituents,  who  is  able  to  name  one  practical  evil  it  has  brought  upon  us 
Can  more  be  said  ?  A  Goverimient,  born  of  -^-isdom  and  of  virtue,  which  has  been 
in  operation  for  fifty-four  years,  and  has  done  no  harm.  When  was  there  a  Govern- 
ment, of  wln.ch  this  could  be  said Certainly  it  is  due  to  such  a  system,  to  consider  it 
cLS  prima  fnrit  good:  it  is  due  to  it,  to  give  it  a  close  and  dehberate  examination :  it 
must  suriiy  1)^  ra^b.  to  cut  it  at  once  to  pieces;  scatter  all  its  parts  ;  and  tJien  see  if 
we  cannot  make  sunietliiui!:  out  of  them,  that  may  peradventm^e  do  better.    It  is  due  to 

3 


18 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


the  feelino-s  of  a  very  large  portion  of  the  people  of  this  State,  who  are  attached  to 
the  Constrtation  in  all  its  parts ;  to  the  whole  and  to  every  part ;  to  refer  such  a  docu- 
ment to  all  tlie  wisdom  which  can  be  commanded  for  its  contemplation ;  to  the  col- 
lective wisdom  of  all  tliose  whom  they  have  deputed  to  the  task  of  its  revision.  But, 
if  the  other  course  shall  be  pursued,  what  will  be  the  result?  We  are  to  set  thirteen 
men  to  examine  the  Leo-islative  part  of  it;  other  thirteen  to  examine  the  Executive 
purtioa  of  it;  other  thirfeen  to  examine  the  Judicial  portion  of  it;  and  so  on;  piece 
by  piece.  throus.-h  half  a  dozen  different  Committees.  It  is  vain  to  reply,  that  all  the 
reports  of  these'various  Committees,  must  come  at  last  to  this  body  ;  how  are  they  to 
come  They  will  come  with  majorities  of  each  respective  Committee,  enlisted  in 
favor  of  their  own  report,  and  pledged  for  its  support.  It  must  be  so.  They  stand 
o|)enLy  pledo-ed  to  their  constituents  and  to  the  world.  But,  if  my  proposition  shall  be 
adopted,  nolnan  will  be  pledged  to  any  thing,  till  he  has  the  whole  ground  before  him. 
St-nd  it  to  Coimnittees,  and'' the  majorities  will  be  pledged ;  they  must  be  :  and  they 
will  enter  this  Hall  in  solid  phalanx,  each  devoted  to  the  maintenance  of  the  work  of 
his  own  hands.    The  consequence  I  need  not  predict. 

Sir,  the  question  before  you,  is  one  of  mere  form.  I  considered  it  as  of  importance 
to  the  time,  and  to  the  rightful  deliberations  of  this  body  ;  and,  therefore,  thought 
something  ought  to  be  said  upon  it.  I  felt  it  a  duty,  to  explain  the  nature  of  the  course 
1  wished  to  see  pursued.  1  have  done  :  and  should  consider  it  unwarrantable,  to  waste 
more  of  that  time,  which  it  is  my  aim  and  my  desire  to  save. 

Mr.  jNIkrckr  rose  in  reply.  He  said,'  that  wlien  he  at  first  rose,  he  had  been  well 
aware  of  the  ingenuity  and  the  ability  of  the  gentleman  who  had  just  addressed  the 
House,  and  was  not  ignorant  of  the  generous  feeling  from  which  what  he  conceived  to 
be  the  error  of  tliut  gentleman  proceeded.  Yet  he  believed  it  only  necessary  to  trace 
the  course  of  the  gentleman's  ov/n  argument,  to  show  him  how  widely  he  had  departed 
from  the  principles  v/ith  which  he  set  out.  That  gentleman,  said  Mr.  Mercer,  early 
told  us  tliat  the  two  propositions  before  the  Convention  involved  no  principle.  Yet, 
in  support  of  the  substitute  he  has  proposed  to  the  resolutions  reported  by  the  Com- 
mittee, he  has  gone  back  and  traced  the  origin  of  the  existing  Government,  and  had 
delivered  an  eloquent  eulogy  upon  the  Constitution  ;  to  the  greater  part  of  which,  my 
own  heart  very  fully  accords.  Sir,  was  this  no  appeal  to  principle  The  gentleman 
tells  us,  that  if  tlie  course  he  advocates  shall  not  be  pursued,  we  shall  bring  into  this 
House  in  solid  phalanx,  pledged  and  opposing  majorities  from  the  Committee  rooms. 
Is  there  no  i)rinciple  in  this Sir,  there  arc  principles  involved  in  any  course  we  may 
pursue.  How  can  we,  who  have  thought  tiiat  there  are  defects,  and  very  serious  ones 
in  the  Constitution,  reconcile  it  to  ourselves  to  be  told  that  the  course  we  have  pro- 
posed, tears  the  Constitution  to  pieces.?  The  honourable  member  from  Norfolk,  has 
treated  the  Constitution  as  if  it  were  an  organized  sensitive  being,  and  its  reference  to 
Committees,  must  necessarily  tear  it  piece-meal  and  destroy  it  altogether. 

I  say.  Sir,  we  purpose  to  treat  tlie  Committee  with  more  respect.  What  is  our  pro* 
position  ?  It  is  first  to  see  whether  there  be  iti  this  body  a  majority  who  do  disapprove 
of  its  present  form  :  and  this  before  we  submit  it  to  the  promiscuous  and  accidental 
motions  (if  the  expression  may  be  pardoned  me)  of  every  gentlenian  who  chooses  to  at- 
tack it.  We  desire  first  to  submit  it  to  Committees  of  tweiity-four  members,  who,  com- 
ing from  every  Senatorial  district,  may  be  fairly  presumed  to  represent  the  judgment  of 
the  whole  State  :  and  then,  after  Ave  ascertain  that  a  majority  m  such  Committee  of 
twenty-four  concur  in  recommending  an  alteration  in  any  of  its  features,  to  submit 
that  proposed  alteration  to  the  deliberate  action  of  the  whole  body.  Sir,  is  this  to  treat 
the  Constitution  with  levity  Is  this  tearing  it  asunder,  and  scattering  its  fragments 
to  the  winds  of  Heaven  1  Is  this  inconsistent  with  the  tenderest  and  the  deepest  reve- 
rence for  the  work  of  our  forefathers.?  No,  Sir:  Nothing  like  it :  just  the  reverse. 
On  the  contrary,  it  is  an  expedient  calculated  to  save  the  time  of  this  assembly,  and  to 
promote  the  harmiony  as  well  as  the  speed  of  its  decisions.  Mr.  President,  even 
forms  necesarily  involve  principles.  If,  however,  our  plan  saved  no  time,  the  argu- 
ment of  the  gentleman  over  the  way  would  have  more  weight :  but  it  does  save  time. 
How  can  it  be  otherv/ise  .?  Surely  it  must  be  obvious  that  if  every  proposition  before 
it  be  discussed,  inust  be  approved  by  a  majority  of  a  large  Committee,  we  shall  have 
the  fewer  propositions  before  us.  It  is  most  palpable  that  such  an  arrangement  must 
save  our  time. 

But  the  gentleman  has  said,  that  we  cannot  analyse  the  Constitution,  so  as  properly 
to  consider  it  by  separate  Committees.  The  honourable  member  very  truly  said,  that 
all  Governments  are  capable  of  being  resolved  into  Executive,  Legislative  and  Judicial 
Departments.  Admit  it.  Yet,  at  another  time,  he  says  that  these  Departments  melt 
like  the  colours  of  the  rainbow  into  each  other.  The  gentleman  certainly  reflects  upon 
the  authors  of  the  report  before  you,  when  he  says  that  the  last  Committee  which  they 
propose  will  have  notliing  to  act  upon.  Sir,  are  there  not  many  subjects,  which  stand- 
ing in  precisely  the  same  relation  to  each  one  of  the  Departments,  and  having  nothing 
in  tlieir  nature  to  attach  them  to  one  more  than  the  other,  will  very  naturally  be  thrown 


DEBATES    OF   THE    C  0>;VE>:TI0X. 


19 


out  by  each  of  the  other  Committees  as  not  being  appropriate  to  the  subject  of  their 
examination  ?  What  is  to  be  done  with  these  ?  if  the  report  be  adopted,  they  -will 
go  to  this  last  Conmiittee.  of  which  the  gentleman  speaks  as  if  tliey  must  be  idle. 
There  are,  for  example,  some  principles  laid  doTm  in  the  Bill  of  Rights,  which  per- 
tain alike  to  all  the  Departments  of  Government  ;  take  as  an  instance  that  clause  in 
the  Bill  of  Pviglits  wliich  treats  of  rights  not  surrendered  :  the  proposition  there  laid 
down  belongs  equally  to  all  the  dlTisions  of  GoTennnent :  they  are  ail  alike  bound  to 
respect  the  residuary  rights  of  the  people. 

But,  Six,  let  us  leave^^theory  for  a  moment,  and  look  to  the  practical  difficulties  be- 
fore us.  What  seems  very  imperfect  in.  theory,  is  often  foimd  to  be  attended  with 
no  evil  consequences,  when  reduced  to  practice,  and  submitted  to  the  test  of  experi- 
ence. The  gentleman's  theory  is,  that  you  cannot,  in  the  natm-e  of  things,  form  a 
pi  mi  of  Government,  by  the  action  of  these  independent  Committees.  But  the  sim- 
ple remedv  to  this  very  formidable  difficulty,  is  to  let  the  Convention  act  upon  the 
reports  as  they  are  received,  or  in  the  order  in  which  they  are  taken  up.  This  will 
prevent  all  collision  of  Committee  majorities,  and  obviate  the  difficulty  arising  from 
contradictorv  reports,  (if  they  shall  prove  contradictory.)  For  example  :  A  report  is 
receiyed  from  the  Committee  on  the  Executive ;  the  Convention  takes  it  up  and  acts  - 
upon  it,  adoptincr  or  rejecting  its  provisions  that  report  reconnnends  a  certain  course 
respecting  the  veto  of  the  Executive.  By  and  bye  comes  tlie  report  of  the  Legisla- 
tive Committee,  and  recommends  a  dilFerent  course  respecting  the  veto;  but  this  re- 
commendation comes  too  late :  the  Convention  has  decided  on  the  subject  of  the 
veto,  and  that  subject  is  at  rest ;  none  can  stir  it  anew.  Here  is-an  end  to  the  gentle- 
man's difficulty.  The  Convention  loses  no  time  ;  if  any  time  is  lost,  it  is  that  of  the 
Committee  which  discussed  a  subject  already  anticipo.ted.  Why  should  the  Conven- 
tion decide  upon  it  again  .'  Has  the  Convention  changed  its  judgment It  is  to  be 
presumed  it  has  not.  But  gi-anting  that  it  has,  all  that  is  to  be  done,  is  to  suspend^ 
the  rule  quod  hoc,  and  open  the  subject  for  revision  just  as  might  be  done  in  any 
other  case.    Nothing  here  is  either  gained  or  lost. 

As  to  the  period  at  which  we  must  commence  our  discussions,  the  honorable  gen- 
tleman from  Norfolk  says,  that  we  must  necessarily  wait  till  we  have  the  reports  of  all 
the  Committees,  and  thus  get  the  whole  subject  before  us. 

"Sir,  is  this  necessary  ?  I  say  no :  not  at  all.  I  heard  a  figure  used  the  other  day, 
(not  here,  but  elsewhere.)  in  support  of  the  gentleman's  position,  which  strongly  eh- 
cited  tins  general  remark :  tliat  figurative  lang-uage  has  place  in  argument  only  for  the 
purpose  of  illustration ;  and  not  as  itself  a  source  of  argument.  If  we  attempt  to 
found  argmnents  upon  figures  of  speech,  we  shall  ever  be  led  astray.  The  figure 
used  was  this  ;  it  was  said  that  a  sculptor  cotild  not  possibly  know  how  to  carve  one 
lunb  of  a  statue,  till  he  first  knew  the  height  and  proportions  of  the  whole  figure  he 
was  to  produce.  This  even,  if  true,  would  decide  nothing  in  the  ease  before  us  :  for 
this  body  could  decide,  for  example,  on  the  question  touching  the  unity  of  the  Exec- 
utive, without  having  any  reference  to  the  number  of  members  of  the  House  of  De- 
legates, and  so  of  many  other  branches  of  the  general  subject  of  Government.  It  is, 
indeed,  true,  that  there  are  some  points  which  have  a  bearino-  upon  the  whole  system  ; 
but  this  is  not  true  of  all  the  points,  nor  is  it  true  of  many.  Sir,  were  this  not  so,  the 
House  could  not  decide  upon  any  question  whatever  ;  for:  obviously,  we  can  go  but 
step  by  step;  one  subject  ordy  can  be  taken  up  at  once,  and  we  must  and  do  presume 
the  rest,  and  act  accordingly.  We  must  anticipate,  and  it  will  be  fair  and  just  to  do 
so,  that  the  coming  reports  will  concur  with  what  the  Connnittees  have  alreadv  done. 
Give  the  gentleman  all  he  asks:  and  suppose  we  go  into  Committee  of  the  Whole, 
and  take  up  the  Constitution  clause  by  clatise.  A  member  otters  an  amendment  to  tlie 
first  clause;  he  does  so.  and  can  do  so.  only  in  anticipation  of  what  is  to  be  done, 
w  ith  the  remaining  clauses.  So  that  it  ^vill  come  precisely  to  the  same  thing,  and 
the  difficulty,  if  it  be  one,  applies  as  much  to  the  one  plan  as  to  the  other.  I  think  we 
shall  save  much  time,  by  adoptuig  the  plan  of  the  Committee. 

Besides,  there  will  be  this  additional  advantage.  The  several  propositions  will  not 
only  be  each  considered  in  Committee,  but  they  will  be  considered  in  their  bearing  on 
all  the  other  portions  of  that  Department  of  Government  to  which  they  appertainTbe- 
cause  all  that  Department  will  be  in  the  hands  of  one  Committee.  Thus,  for  exam- 
ple, if,  in  the  Legislative  Committee,  a  proposition  is  reported  to  reduce  the  jnmiber 
of  members  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  the  same  Committee  will  have  it  in  their 
power  to  consider  the  propriety  of  also  reducing  the  numbers  of  the  Senate.  Thus, 
there  will  be  a  harmony  in  the  sub-divisions  of  each  general  Department  of  Govern- 
ment. 

This  puts  an  end  to  the  gentleman's  conjectm-e,  that  no  ten  men  will  agree  as  to 
what  amendments  should  be  made  in  the  Constitution.  But.  if  that  were  the  fact, 
it  only  follows  that  there  is  the  greater  need  for  the  Committees  proposed ;  for  there 
may,  according  to  the  gentleman,  be  no  two  in  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  who 
will  fliUy  agree  in  aU  their  views,  and  so  the  debates  wiU  be  interminable.    In  Com- 


20 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


mittee  of  tlie  Wliole,  there  is  no  restraint  as  to  speaking ;  each  member  may  speak  as 
ofte-.i  as  he  pleases;  and,  For  auo-ht^  I  see,  we  shall  be  in  session  here  till  mid-winter, 
if  his  plan  prevails.  If  the  previous  question  to  be  taken  is,  whether  the  Constitu- 
tion is  to  be  amended  at  all,  let  it  be  taken.  That,  after  all,  is  the  argument  of  the 
gentleman  fmiu  Norfolk,  though  it  is  not  his  plan.  Such  a  resolution  would  be  in 
order,  and  it  ])roves  tiiat  we  have  still  a  subject  to  act  on  here,  even  if  the  Committees 
shall  be  appointed.  So  we  may  also  give  instructions  to  the  Committees.  The 
whole  subject  is  open  to  the  body.  1  take  it  for  granted,  the  delay  produced  by  dis- 
cussions in  the  Connnittees  will  not  be  great,  and  the  gentleman  can  put  an  end  to 
it  whenever  he  will,  the  Convention  concurring.  But,  Sir,  to  prevent  the  evil  he 
suggests,  I  shall  offer  a  proposition  to  enlarge  all  the  Committees  so  as  to  make  them 
each  consist  of  twenty-four  members.  This  will  prevent  the  a])pearance  of  that  solid 
pbalan.x  which  glares  before  the  gentleman's  imagination  so  formidably.  If  there 
shall  be  thirteen  to  eleven  in  each  Committee,  the  majority  will  not  be  very  large ; 
and  this  is  anotlier  advantage  attending  the  scheme.  The  Committees,  like  the 
Cunveiition  itself,  will  in  this  way  be  prepared  to  act  upon  a  knowledge  of  the  wholo 
subject  before  us. 

Mr.  M.  concluded  by  an  apology  for  having  trespassed  so  long  upon  tlie  time  of  the 
Coj)  vi-ntion,  and  then  resumed  his  seat. 

'i'he  (|ne.stion  was  then  called  for  on  Mr.  Tazewell's  amendment. 

Mr.  Ilandolph  demanded  that  the  question  be  taken  by  yeas  and  nays  :  it  was  so 
taken  accordingly,  and  the  yeas  and  nays  were  reported  by  the  Secretary,  as  follows :  / 

AvKS. — Messrs.  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Giles,  Brod- 
nax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Mason, 
Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Vennbls,  Madi- 
son, Barbour  of  Orange,  Roane,  Tajdor  of  Caroline,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  . 
Scott,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Townes,  Taliaferro  and  Upshur — 34. 

NoKS. — Messrs.  Monroe,  (President,)  Anderson,  Cofiman,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  - 
Jolmson,  WCoy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smitti,  Miller,  Baxter,  Stanard,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh, 
Henderson,  Cooke,  Powell,  Opie,  Griggs,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton, 
George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapnian,  Oglesby, 
Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson, 
Macrae,  Taylor  of  Norfolk,  Claytor,  Ptlennis,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuartj  Plea- 
sants, Gordrju,  T]iom])son,  Massie,  Bates,  Joynes  and  Bayly — 54. 

So  Mr.  TazewelFs  amendment  was  rejected  by  the  Convention. 

The  rei)ort  of  the  Conunittee  was  then  read  at  the  Secretary's  table  by  sections: 

And  the  question  being  "on  the  first  resolution  by  the  Committee,  as  follows  : 

Resolved,  That  a  Committee  be  appointed  to  take  into  consitieration  the  Bill  or  De- 
claration of  Rights,  and  to  report  to  this  Convention  whether,  in  their  opinion,  any,  - 
and  if  any,  what  amendments  are  necessary  therein. 

A  desultory  conversation  arose,  in  v/lucli  Messrs.  Jolmson,  Mercer  and  Doddridge 
took  part,  and  which  resulted  in  a  motion  by  Mr,  Mercer  to  lay  the  first  resolution  for 
the  present  upon  the  table  :  the  motion  v/as  agreed  to. 

The  second  resolution  having  been  read  as  follows : 

Resolved,  Tliat  a  Connnittee  be  appointed  to  take  into  consideration  the  Legislative 
Department  of  Government  as  established  by  the  present  Constitution,  and  to  report 
to  this  Convention,  either  a  substitute  for  the  same,  or_  such  amendments  thereto,  as 
in  their  opinion  are  necessary,  or  that  no  substitute  or  amendment  is  necessary, 

Mr.  Benjamin  W.  Leigh  referring  to  the  notice  given  by  Mr.  Mercer,  that  he  should 
move  to  enlarge  thq  Committees  to  twenty-four  members  each,  protested  against  this 
being  taken  for  granted  cis  about  to  pass,  and  being  thus  made  an  argument  with  the 
House.  He  was  opposed  to  such  enlargement,  and  hoped  it  would  not  take  place. 
Committees  of  tv/enty-four  members  v/onld  scarcely  deserve  the  name ;  they  would 
bo  so  many  debating  bodies,  with  all  the  forms  of  debate  observed  elsewhere,  instead 
of  tixe  colloquial  discussion  appropriate  to  Committees,  and  which  constituted  indeed 
their  cliief  advantage.  Mr.  Mercer  declined  a  formal  reply  till  the  resolutions  should 
have  been  gone  through  with. 

The  third  and  fourth  resolutions  from  the  Committee  were  then  read  and  adopted, 
as  follows  : 

Resolved,  That  tlie  Executive  Department  of  Government  as  established  by  tlie , 
present  Constitution,  be  referred  to  a"^  Committee,  to  enquire  and  report  whether  any, 
and  if  any,  what  amendments  are  necessary. 

Resolved,  That  the  Judicial  Department  of  Government  as  established  by  the  pre- 
sent Constitution,  be  referred  to  a  Committee,  to  enquire  and  report  whether  any,  and 
if  any,  vWiat  amendments  are  necessary  therein. 

The  fifth  resolution  was  then  read  as  follov/s  : 

Resolved,  That  all  such  parts  of  the  present  Constitution  as  are  not  referred  by 
the  foregoing  resolutions,  be  referred  to  a  Committee,  to  enquire  and  report  whether 
any,  and  if  any,  what  amendments  are  necessary  therein.  . 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


21 


This  resolution  being-  amended,  so  as  to  add,  the  Declaration  of  Rights,"  among 
the  subjects  transferred  to  the  Committee,  it  was,  thus  amended,  adojited  by  the 
House. 

The  sixth  and  last  resolution  of  the  Committee  was  then  read  as  follows  : 
Resolved,  Tiiat  no  oi-iginal  resolution  offered  to  the  Convention  proposing  any 

ameiidment  to  the  Constitution  or  Declaration  of  Rights,  be  discussed  on  its  merits  in 

the  House,  till  it  shall  Iiave  been  referred. 

Mr.  Benjamin  W.  Leigh  called  for  the  reasons  in  its  favor. 

Mr.  Johnson  briefly  stated  them  as  consisting  in  a  desire  for  tlie  maturest  discussion 
of  every  proposition  before  it  was  adopted,  and  for  the  prevention  of  the  points  refer- 
red to  the  Committees  being  mooted  at  the  same  time  in  the  House. 

Mr.  Leigh  objected  to  the  v/ords  of  the  resolution  as  going  to  prevent  any  member 
who  might  propose  an  amendment  in  the  House,  from  explaining  the  nature  and  in- 
tention of  such  amendments. 

Mr.  Johnson  denied  that  such  consequence  would  follow,  and  referred  in  support  of 
his  view  of  the  case,  to  the  usage  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  where  it  was  a  standing 
•rule  that  no  projiosition  could  be  discussed  until  it  had  been  seconded,  and  still  a  gen- 
tleman offering  a  resolution  was  held  in  order  to  give  a  succinct  explanation  of  its 
purport,  provided  the  discussion  stopped  there. 

Tlie  question  being  put  on  the  adoption  of  the  sixth  resolution,  a  division  was  called 
for,  and  the  votes  being  counted  by  INIessrs.  Leigh  and  Johnson,  stood  as  follows : 
Ayes  48,  Noes  32 :  so  the  resolution  was  adopted. 

The  first  resolution  was  then  taken  from  the  table,  and  rejected ;  its  contents  having 
been  siiperseded. 

Mr.  Mercer  then  moved  the  following  resolution  : 

Resolved,  That  so  m.uch  of  the  twenty-fourth  rule  of  the  Convention,  as  limits  the 
number  of  a  Select  Committee  to  thirteen,  be  suspended,  for  the  purpose  of  enlarging 
the  three  Committees  required  by  the.  preceding  resolutions,  to  such  extent,  as  that 
each  Committee  shall  comprehend  one  member  from  every  Senatorial  District,  and 
composing  the  Committee  required  by  the  fourth  resolution  of  such  members  as  may 
not  be  placed  on  tlie  preceding  Committees. 

Mr.  M.  now  replied  to  the  objections  before  stated  by  Mr.  Leigh,  and  referred  to 
precedents  in  the  Journals  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  to  shew  that  Committees  of 
twenty,  of  thirty-three,  and  one  of  forty-tliree  members,  had  been  appointed  on  im- 
portant subjects.  No  great  evil,  he  thought,  arose  from  the  formal  mode  of  discussion, 
pursued  in  large  Committees,  though  he  acknowledged,  that  he  should  prefer  the  col- 
loquial mode  of  debate. 

A  desultory  conversation  ensued,  in  which  Messrs.  Leigh,  Stanard,  Mercer,  Fitz- 
hugh  and  Doddridge  took  part,  and  in  which  several  modifications  of  the  resolution 
were  proposed.  Mr.  Marshall  enquired  of  Mr.  Mercer,  if  he  intended  to  bring  for- 
ward, at  all,  the  two  resolutions  he  had  read  yesterday.^ 

Mr.  Mercer  replying  in  the  negative, 

Mr.  Marshall  said,  that  if  he  had  brought  them  forward,  he  should  have  drought,  that 
one  Committee  of  twenty-four  was  sufficient ;  as  the  subject  to  be  referred  to  it,  was 
geographical  in  its  nature,  and  had  a  bearing  on  members,  according  to  the  part  of  the 
State  where  they  resided.  In  such'  a  Coimnittee,  twenty-four  members  might  be  re- 
quired, in  order  to  collect  the  opinions  of  everj^^  part  of  the  State ;  but  this  v/as  not 
equally  necess?ay  on  questions  not  geog-raphical  in  their  nature.  Y/hen  the  measure 
proposed,  was  to  affect  all  the  citizens  alike,  there  was  not  the  same  reason  for  a  differ- 
ence of  opinion,  in  different  districts.  Still,  if  no  objection  arose  from  the  proposed 
number  of  members  in  the  Committees,  Mr.  Marshall  said,  he  should  have  submitted 
to  the  arrangement;  but  tliere  was  an  objection,  and  a  serious  one,  which  did  arise 
from  it :  it  was  the  wish,  he  presumed,  of  evejy  member,  that  at  least  some  portion  of 
the  business  before  the  Convention,  might  be  entered  upon  and  completed  as  soon  as 
practicable.  But  it  must  be  obvious,  that  if  each  of  the  Committees  were  to  consist 
of  twenty-four  members,  more  time  would  be  consumed  in  preparing  their  reports, 
than  if  the  number  were  smaller.  If,  for  example,  the  Committees  should  consist  of 
tliirteen  members,  the  reports,  though  he  hoped  not  less  considered,  would  be  consi- 
dered and  reported  upon  in  less  time. 

Mr.  Scott  moved  to  amend  the  resolution,  by  striking  out  the  word  tlu-ee,"  so  as 
to  read,  "  the  first  of  the  Committees,"  instead  of  "  the  first  three  of  the  Com- 
mittees." 

Mr.  Mercer  observed  in  reply  to  Judge  Marshall,  that  there  was  not  a  part  of  the 
Constitution,  in  which  all  parts  of  the  State  were  not  deeply  interested.  How  could 
the  Convention  know  the  opinions  of  the  people,  for  instance,  respecting  the  Execu- 
tive Department  of  Government,  but  by  consulting  the  people  ?  and  how  could  it 
consult  them,  but  through  their  reiwesentatives  ?  So  respecting  the  Judiciary;  he 
could  assure  the  honorable  and  venerable  gentleman  that  that  was  a  question  of  a 
local  character ;  there  did  exist  on  that  subject,  evils  of  very  great  magnitude ;  but 


22 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


those  evils  were  not  universal,  but  local  in  their  extent.  The  gentleman  was  ready 
to  admit  that  the  principle  involved  in  the  first  of  the  resolutions  was  such  as  required 
a  Committee  from  all  parts  of  the  State ;  he  believed  the  same  principle  would  be 
found  to  apply  to  all  the  other  resolutions.  Mr.  M.  then  stated  the  reasons  why  he 
Bhould  not  ofter  his  two  resolutions,  and  concluded  by  a  compliment  to  the  judgment 
and  standing  of  the  gentleman  from  Richmond. 

Mr.  Marshall  rejoined.  If  liis  friend  had  understood  him  to  say  that  every  part  of 
the  community  was  not  interested  in  every  part  of  the  Constitution,  he  had  greatly 
mistaken  his  meaning.  But  the  interest  they  take  in  the  other  parts  of  the  Constitu- 
tion not  geographical  in  their  bearing,  was  not  local  or  geographical  in  its  kind. 
Gentlemen  on  one  side  of  James  River,  for  instance,  had  the  same  interest  in  the 
Executive  Department  of  the  Government,  as  th%se  on  the  other  side.  That  interest 
did  not  depend  at  all  upon  their  residence  \  on  that  Department,  therefore,  he  could 
see  no  reason  for  a  Committee  taken  from  all  parts  of  the  State ;  but  the  case  was 
very  different  when  the  question  of  the  basis  of  representation  was  involved.  As 
that  subject  was  not  necessarily  separated  from  the  Legislative  Department,  he  saw  no 
need  of  reporting  on  it  by  a  separate  Committee.  As  there  was  nothing  geographical 
in  the  Executive  or  Judicial  Departments  of  Government,  he  could  not  see  the  need  of 
having  a  Geographical  Committee  to  consider  them ;  and  as  a  large  Committee  was 
likely  to  be  slow  in  reporting,  he  preferred  one  of  more  limited  numbers. 

After  some  remarks  of  Mr.  Johnson,  going  to  shew  the  inconvenience  of  large 
Committees,  he  expressed  his  determination  to  vote  for  the  amendment,  leaving  all 
other  Committees  but  one  to  be  appointed  in  the  ordinary  mode  by  the  Chair. 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Scott,  and  decided  in  the 
negative — Ayes  39,  Noes  46.    So  the  amendment  was  rejected. 

The  resolution  was  then  carried,  ayes  51. 

A  conversation  now  arose  as  to  certain  documents,  the  priiiting  of  which  was  de- 
sired with  a  view  to  ascertain  as  far  as  practicable,  the  present  population  of  the  State. 
Mr.  Joynes  offered  the  following  resolution  : 

Resolved,  That  the  Secretary  cause  to  be  printed  for  the  use  of  the  members  of  this 
Convention  100  copies  of  the  Census  of  this  State,  taken  in  the  years  1790, 1800, 
1810  and  1820  ;  and  also,  in  separate  tables,  100  copies  of  the  aggregate  militia  returns 
of  each  county  in  those  years,  and  in  the  year  1820,  and  the  three  years  preceding. 

Messrs.  Joynes,  Claytor,  Doddridge,  Green,  Mercer,  Upshur,  Scott,  and  B.  W. 
Leigh,  took  part  in  this  discussion ;  but  before  the  gentlemen  had  agreed  upon  all  the 
documents  to  be  printed,  Mr.  Powell  moved  to  lay  the  resolution  of  Mr.  Joynes  upon 
the  table. 

Whereupon,  on  motion  of  Mr.  Stanard,  the  House  adjourned. 


The  Convention  met  at  12  o'clock,  and  its  sitting  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the 
Rev.  Mr.  Lee. 

The  following  gentlemen  were  announced  as  having  been  appointed  to  constitute 
the  several  Committees  ordered  on  Friday  : 

Committee  to  consider  the  Legislative  Department  of  the  Government. 

Messrs.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Messrs.  George, 


SATURDAY,  October  10, 1829. 


Chapman, 
Summers, 
Doddridge, 
Green, 


Roane, 


Anderson, 
Johnson, 
Beirne, 


Mason , 


Tazewell, 
Campbell  of  Bedford, 
Townes, 


Randolph, 
Madison, 
Mercer, 


Pleasants, 
Taliaferro, 
Joynes. 


Cooke , 
Pendleton, 


Committee  on  the  Executive  Department. 


Messrs.  Giles, 

Dromgoole, 
Nicholas, 


Messrs.  Campbell  of  Washington, 
Garnett, 
Cloyd, 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CO^'TENTION. 


23 


Messrs.  Coffman, 
MCoy, 
.  Smith, 
Trezvant, 
Leigh  of  Halifax, 
Barbour  of  Orange, 
Fitzhugh, 
Powell, 
Naylor, 


Messrs.  Duncan, 
Morgan, 

Barbour  of  Culpeper, 

Loyall, 

Claytor, 

Cabell, 

Gordon,   ■     . .  " 

Bates, 

Upshur. 


Messrs.  Jones. 


Committee  on  the  Judicial  Department. 

Messrs.  ^NI'Millan. 


Alexander, 

Morris, 

Marshall, 

ISIathews, 

Harrison, 

Laidley, 

Baldwin, 

Campbell  of  Oliio, 

Miller, 

Scott, 

Claiborne,  - 

Taylor, 

Venable, 

■  Mennis, 

Stanaxd, 

?vlartin, 

Henderson,  ■ 

Thompson, 

Grigo-s, 

Bayly. 

Boyd; 

Committee  to  consider  the  Bill  of  Rights,  and  other  matters  not  referred  to  the  foregoing 

Committees. 


Messrs.  Taylor  of  Chesterfield, 
Goode, 
Clopton, 
Williamson, 
_  -  Moore, 
Baxter. 
Urquliart, 
Logan, 

Opie,  "  V 

Donaldson, 

Byars, 


JNIessTS.  Taylor  of  Caroline, 
Ogiesby, 
See, 
Wilson, 
INIacrae, 
Prentis. 
Saunders, 
Stuart, 
IMassie, 
Read. 


The  President  then  laid  before  the  Convention  the  follo\\'ing  letter  received  b_j 
from  the  honorable  Judcre  Dade,  a  member  elect  to  the  Convention: 


imu 


To  the  honorable  the  President  of  the  Convention,  called  to  alter  or  amend  the  Constitu- 
tion of  the  State  of  Virginia. 


Sir  : — Being  unable  from  ill  health  to  attend  my  duties  m  the  Convention,  I  take 
the  earliest  opportunity  of  enclosing  to  you  nw  resignation  of  that  high  trust. 

Occurring  after  tlie  meeting  of  tiie  Convention,  it  will,  of  course,  devolve  the  fill- 
ing of  my  vacancy  on  the  remaining  Delegates. 

With  the  most  earnest  wishes  for  the  success  of  your  labours,  and  v-ath  the  liighest 
respect  for  yourself  and  the  body  in  which  you  preside.  I  am  vour  most  obedient 
servant,  '    W^I.  A.  G.  DADE. 

October  5th,  1829. 

Mr.  Taliaferro  of  King  George,  said,  that  he  believed  in  expressing  liis  unfeigned 
regret  for  the  cause  that  had  produced  the  commimication  just  read,  he  should  hazard 
nothing  by  saying,  that  in  Judge  Dade  tlie  Convention  had  lost  one  of  its  most  valuable 
members.  He  was  very  sure  he  should  hazard  nothing  in  the  view  of  all  those  to 
whom  that  gentleman  was  known.  As  he  presmned  that  some  autlientic  record  of 
the  fact  of  Judge  Dade's  resignation  was  requisite,  it  was  his  piirpose  to  move  that  the 
letter  annoTincing  it,  should  be  put  on  file  by  the  Secretary,  and  entered  upon  the  Jour- 
nal of  the  Convention,  but  as  a  previous  motion  was  required  by  order,  lie  would  first 
move  that  the  letter  be  laid  upon  the  table:  which  motion  beins:  agreed  to,  JNIr.  T. 
moved  that  the  communication  firom  Judge  Dade  be  entered  on^^the  records  of  the 
Convention. 

This  motion  was  carried  nem.  con. 

Mr.  Jovnes  of  Accomack,  now  moved  again  the  resolution  which  he  offered  yester- 
day, and  wliich  was  modified  so  as  to  read  as  follows:        .  ... 


24 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Resolved,  That  the  Auditor  of  Pubhc  Accounts,  be  requested  to  prepare  and  lay 
before  this  Convention,  Tabular  Statements,  shewing*  tlie  free  white,  free  coloured, 
and  slave  population  of  each  county  of  this  Commonwealth,  according  to  the  Census 
taken  in  the  years  1790,  ISOO,  ISIO,  and  1820,  respectively ;  the  area  in  acres  of  each 
county;  the  quantity  of  land  taxed  in  each  county,  in  the  year  1828;  the  amount  of 
taxes  assessed  in  each  county,  in  the  year  1823;  the  amount  of  tax  paid  into  the 
Public  TreasuBft,  from  each  county,  in  that  year ;  the  amount  of  tax  accruing  on  each 
subject  of  taxation  ;  the  white,  free  colourecl,  and  slave  tythables  of  each  county,  in 
tlie  years  1800,  1810,  1820,  and  182!);  and  also  a  statement  of  the  free  white,  free  co- 
loured, and  slave  population  of  each  county,  in  the  year  1829,  so  far  as  he  can  deduce 
the  same  by  a  comparison  of  the  tj'thables,  and  the  entire  population  in  the  years  1800, 
1810,  and  1820. 

Resolved,  That  the  Auditor  be  also  requested,  in  addition  to  such  Tabular  State-  - 
ments,  in  reference  to  each  county,  to  state  the  information  above  requested,  in  rela- 
tion to  the  four  following  divisions  of  this  Commonwealth,  viz  :  1st,  from  the  sea-coast, 
to  the  head  of  tide-water ;  2d,  from  the  head  of  tide-v/ater  to  the  Blue  Ridge;  3d, 
from  the  Blue  Rit'o-e  to  the  Allegliany ;  and  4th,  from  the  Alleghany  to  the  wetward.  . 

The  above  resolutions  having  been  agreed  to, 

Mr.  Green  of  Cidpeper,  moved  the  following  : 

Resolved,  That  the  Auditor  be  also  requested  to  furnish  a  statement,  from  tlie  pro- 
perty books  in  his  oHice,  of  the  nmnber  of  persons  in  each  county  and  corporate  town  - 
of  tliis  Connnonwealth,  assessed  to  the  payment  of  any  revenue  tax,  in  the  year  1828. 

TJie  resolution  was  adopted. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Doddridge,  it  Avas  ordered,  that  the  foregoing  list  of  the  mem- 
bers of  Committees,  be  printed  for  the  use  of  the  House.  And  then  the  House  ad- 
journed till  Monday  12  o'clock.  , 


MONDAY,  October  12, 1829. 

The  Convention  met  pursuant  to  adjournment,  at  12  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with 
prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr.  Kerr  (of  the  Ba])tist  Church.) 

Mr.  JNeal,  (hjm  the  District  of  King  George,  a]>])eared  and  took  his  seat. 

The  President  laid  beibre  the  Convention  the  following  letter,  which  was  read  at 
the  Clerk's  table : 

Richmond,  October  12, 1829. 

Sir  : — We  discharge  a  melancholy  duty  in  announcing  to  you  the  death  of  Calvin 
I.I.  Read,  Esq.  a  Delegate  to  the  Convention  of  Virginia  from  the  twenty-fourth  Dis- 
trict, who  departed  this  life  on  the  night  of  the  Gth  inst. 

This  event  having  occurred  since  the  meeting  of  the  Convention,  we,  the  remain- 
ing mem])ers  of  that  Delegation,  have  proceeded,  according  to  the  provisions  of  the 
act  of  Assembly,  to  fill  the  vacancy  thereby  occasioned.  V/ e  have  appointed  William 
K.  Perrln,  Esq.  of  the  county  of  'Gloucester,  as  the  successor  of  Mr.  Read,  as  will 
ap])ear  by  the  document  which  we  have  the  honor  to  enclose. 

With  high  consideration  we  are,  your  ob't  serv'ts, 

THOS.  R.  JOYNES, 

THos.  M.  bayly; 

A.  p.  UPSHUR. 

Tlic  honorable  James  Monroe,  Prcsidcvt 

of  ike  Convcidiou — Present. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Joynes  of  Accomack,  the  letter  was  laid  upon  the  table. 
Mr.  Joynes  tliereupon  moved  the  follov/ing  resolution : 

Resolved,  Tliat  the  members  of  this  Convention  will  Avear  crape  for  thirty  days  in 
testimony  of  their  respect  for  the  memory  of  Dr.  Calvin  II.  Read  of  Northampton, 
who  was  elected  a  member  of  this  Convention  and  who  has  died  since  the  meeting 
of  the  Convention. 

On  offering  the  above  resolution,  Mr.  J.  said,  that  wlien  he  Iieard  of  the  death  of 
Dr.  P-ead,  he  liad  at  first  been  in  doubt  as  to  the  propriety  of  moving  such  a  resolution 
as  he  now  had  the  honor  to  submit.  He  v/as  not  then  apprised  of  the  practice  in  the 
House  of  Deleo-ates  on  such  occasions  ;  but  he  had  since  ascertained,  that  it  was  usual 
on  the  death  of  a  member,  to  adopt  such  a  mark  of  respect,  as  that  he  had  just  pro- 
posed. Tlie  gentleman,  in  remembrance  of  whom,  he  asked  the  Convention  to  wear 
crape  for  thirty  dayi^:,  was  one  of  the  most  amiable  and  upright  citizens  of  the  State,  and 
although  this  slight  tribute  of  regard,  was  in  itself,  pei-iiaps,  but  of  little  value,  it 
might  be  some  consolation  to  the  weeping  v/idow  of  the  deceased,  and  to  his  family 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


25 


and  friends,  to  know,  that  a  testimonial  of  public  respect,  usual  in  other  cases  of  a 
similar  kind,  had  not  been  withheld  from  the  memorj'  of  Dr.  Read. 

The  resolution  was  unanimouslj'  adopted.  "Whereupon,  Mr.  Jojnes  moved  the 
following  additional  resolution : 

Resolved,  Tnat  the  Sergeant  at  Arms  cause  to  be  delivered,  as  soon  as  practicable, 
to  Mr.  Widiam  K.  Perrin  of  Gloucester,  a  notification  of  his  appointment  as  a  mem- 
ber of  this  Convention,  to  supply  the  vacancy,  occasioned  by  tne  death  of  Dr.  Calvin 
H.  Read,  of  Northampton. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh,  from  the  Committee  appointed  to  fix  the  compensation  of  ofiicers, 
reported  in  part  as  follows  : 

'•'  The  Committee  appointed  to  enquire  into  the  compensation  proper  to  be  allovved 
tlie  officers  of  the  Convention,  have^  agreed  to  tlie  following  resolution  : 

Resolved,  That  the  allowances  to  the  ofHcers  of  this  Convention  for  their  services, 
during  its  Session,  shall  be  to  the  President,  in  addition  to  his  mileage  as  a  member  of 
the  Convention,  eight  dollars  per  day,  to  the  Secretary  on&-hundred  and  fifty  dollars 
per  week,  to  the  Sergeant  at  Arms  thirty  dollars  per  week,  to  each  of  the  door-keepers 
twenty-eight  dollars  per  week,  and  to  the  person  who  cleans  the  Capitol,  fotirteen 
dollars  per  week." 

Mr.  i\  observed  in  explanation,  that  the  Committee  had  not  found  it  possible  to  in- 
clude in  thair  report,  a  proper  compensation  for  the  public  printer,  inasmuch  as  no 
correct  estunate  could  at  present  be  formed  of  the  amaunt  of  public  printing  lie  would 
have  to  execute.  They  had  also  included  in  their  report,  an  allowaiiee  to  a  person 
not  strictly  an  officer  of  the  Convention,  but  performmg  a  subordinate  duty  in  its  ser- 
vice, viz  :  the  sweeping  the  Hall  and  passages.  In  taking  this  liberty,  thej*  conceived 
itself  as  acting  in  coniormity  witlr  the  spirit-,  though  not  the  letter  of  their  appoint- 
ment, and  in  doing  so  they  liad  followed  a  precedent  set  by  the  practice  in  the  House 
of  Delegates. 

The  resolution  recommended  by  the  Committee,  was  adopted. 

Mr.  Doddridge  then  offered  the  following  resolutions : 
Resolved,^  l^hat  the  several  Committees  consisting  of  a  member  from  each  Sena- 
torial District,-have  power  respectively  to  appoint  a  Clerk,  and  to  cause  such  printing 
to  be  done  as  they  may  deem  expedient  in  the  performance  of  their  respective  duties. 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Comaiittee  appointed  to  enquire  into  the  compensation  proper 
to  be  allowed  the  officers  of  the  Convention,  be  insti-ucted  to  provide  and  report  a  fit 
compensation  for  such  Clerks  as  ma}^  be  appointed  under  the  preceding  resolution." 

Tlie  resolutions  were  agreed  to. 

Mr.  Joynes  then  moved  the  folloAving  : 

*'  Resolved,  That  the  Auditor  of  Public  Accounts  be  requested  to  prepare  and  lay 
before  the  Convention  a  statement  of  the  number  of  persons  in  each  county  of  this 
Commonwealth,  who  are  charged  on  tlie  land  books  of  the  years  1S26  and  \t2'd,  v/ith 
taxes  on  a  quantity  of  land  not  less  than  tvv-entj'-five  acres,  or  on  a  lot  or  part  cf  a  lot 
in  a  town  established  by  law." 

This  resolution  having  been  adopted, 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Brodnax,  the  Convention  adjourned  to  meet  to-morrow  at  one 
o'clock. 

[This  alteration  in  the  hour  of  meeting,  being  designed  to  allow  further  time  to  Uie 
severed  Comnnttees  now  in  session.] 


TUESDAY,  October  13,  1S29. 

The  Convention  met  at  one  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  bv  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Kerr.  .  r    .  . 

Mr.  Marshall  of  Richmond  said,  that  he  was  charged  with  a  memorial  from  a  nu- 
merous and  respectable  body  of  citizens,  the  non-freenolders  of  the  city  of  Richmond. 
The  object  sought  in  the  memorial,  was  an  extension  of  the  right  of  suffrage.  The 
language  of  the  memorial  was  respectful,  and  the  petitioners  accompanied  their  re- 
quest with  such  arguments,  as  to  them  appeared  convmcing,  in  support  of  the  object 
in  view. 

The  memoriil  -was  thereupon  received,  and  read  as  follows  : 

The  Memorial  of  the  JSVa- Freeholders  of  the  City  of  Richmond,  rcspccfidJy  addressed 
to  the  Convention,  tioic  assembled  to  deliberate  on  amx^ndmcnts  to  the  Slate  Constitution :  . 

Your  memorialists,  as  their  designation  imports,  belong  to  that  class  of  citizens,  who, 
not  having  the  good  fortune  to  possess  a  certain  portion  of  land,  are,  for  that  cause 
only,  debarred  from  the  enjoyment  of  the  right  of  suffrage.    Experience  hae  but  too 

4 


26 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


clearly  evinced,  what,  indeed,  reason  had  always  foretold,  by  how  frail  a  tenure  they 
hold  everyr  other  right,  who  are  denied  this,  the  hi gliest  prerogative  of  freemen.  The 
want  of  it  h  is  afforded  both  the  pretext  and  the  nieans  of  excluding  the  entire  class, 
to  which  your  uieinorialists  belong,  from  all  participation  in  the  recent  election  of  the 
body,  they  now  respectiully  address.    Coniprising  a  very  large  part,  probably  a  ma- 
jority of  luale  citizens  of  mature  age,  they  have  been  passed  by,  like  aliens  or  slaves, 
as  it  destitute  of  interest,  or  unworthy  of  a  voice,  in  measures  involving  their  future 
political  destiny  :  whilst  the  fteeholders,  sole  possessors,  under  the  existing  Constitu- 
tion, of  the  elective  franchise,  have,  upon  the  strength  of  that  possession  alone,  as- 
serted and  maintained  in  themselves,  the  exclusive  power  of  new-modelling  the  fun- 
dauientjl  laws  of  the  State:  in  other  words,  have  seized  upon  the  sovereign  authority. 
It  cannot  be  necessary,  in  addressing  the  Convention  now  assembled,  to  expatiate 
on  the  momentous  importance  of  the  right  of  suffrage,  or  to  eimmerate  the  evils  con- 
sequent upon  its  unjust  limitation.    Were  there  no  other  than  that  your  memorialists 
have  brought  to  your  attention,  and  wliich  has  made  them  feel  with  full  force  their 
degraded  condition,  well  might  it  justify  their  best  efforts  to  obtain  the  great  privilege 
they  now  seek,  as  the  only  effectual  method  of  preventing  its  recurrence    To  that 
privilege,  they  respectfully,  contend,  they  are  entitled  eqv.ally  with  its  present  pos- 
sessors.   Maav  are  bold  enough  to  deny  their  title.    None  can  show  a  better.    It  rests 
upon  no  subtle  or  abstruse  reasoning  ;  but  upon  grounds  simple  in  their  character,  in- 
telligible to  the  plainest  capacity,  and  such  as  appeal  to  the  heart,  as  well  as  the  un- 
derstanding, of  all  who  coinprvhend  and  duly  appreciate  the  principles  of  free  Govern- 
ment.   Among  the  doctrines  inculcated  in  the  great  charter  handed  down  to  us,  as  a 
declaration  of  the  riglits  pertaining  to  the  good  people  of  Virginia  and  their  posterity, 
as  the  basis  and  foundation  of  Government,"  we  are  taught, 

*■  That  all  men  are  by  nature  equally  free  and  independent,  and  have  certain  in- 
herent rights,  of  which,  when  they  enter  into  a  state  of  society,  they  cannot,' by  any 
compact,  deprive  or  divest  their  posterity:  namely,  the  enjoyment  of  life  and  liberty, 
with  the  means  of  acquiring  and  possessing  property,  and  pursuing  and  obtaining  hap- 
piness and  safety. 

"  That  all  power  is  vested  in,  and  consequently  derived  from,  the  people. 
That  a  majorit}'  of  the  community  hath  an  indubitable,  unalienable,  and  indefea-  " 
sible  right  to  reform,  alter  or  abolish  the  Government. 

"  That  no  man,  nor  set  of  men,  are  entitled  to  exclusive  or  separate  emoluments  or  ' 
privileges,  but  in  consideration  of  public  services. 

"  That  all  men,  having  sufScient  evidence  of  permanent  common  interest  with,  and 
attacliinent  to,  the  community,  have  a  right  of  suffrage,  and  cannot  be  taxed,  or  de- 
prived of  their  property,  without  their  consent,  or  that  of  their  representative,  nor  . 
bound  by  any  law,  to  which  they  have  not,  in  like  manner,  assented,  for  the  public 
good." 

How  do  the  principles  thus  proclaimed,  accord  with  the  existing  regulation  of  suf- 
frage.''  A  regulation,  wliich,  instead  of  the  equality  nature  ordains,  creates  an  odious 
distinction  between  members  of  the  same  community  ;  robs  of  all  share,  in  the  enact- 
ment of  the  laws,  a  large  portion  of  the  citizens,  bound  by  them,  and  whose  blood  and 
treasure  are  pledged  to  maintain  them,  and  vests  in  a  favoured  class,  not  in  conside- 
ration of  their  public  services,  but  of  their  private  possessions,  the  highest  of  all  privi- 
leges •  one  which,  as  is  now  in  flagrnnt  proof,  if  it  does  not  constitute,  at  least  is  held 
practically  to  con'ier,  absolute  sovereignty.  Let  it  not  be  urged,  that  the  regulation 
complained  of  and  the  charter  it  violates,  sprung  from  the  same  honored  source.  The 
con.^ict  between  the  n  ia  not  on  that  account  the  less  apparent.  Nor  does  it  derogate 
from  the  fair  fame  of  the  Convention  of  '70,  that  they  should  not  have  framed  a  Con- 
stitution perfect  in  all  its  parts.  Deliberating  amid  the  din  of  arms,  not  merely  on  a 
plan  of  Government,  but  on  the  necessary  means  for  conducting  a  most  unequal  strug- 
gle for  natimal  existence,  it  was  not  to  be  expected,  that  the  relative  rights  of  the 
citizens,  could  be  maturely  considered,  or  adjusted  in  detail.  From  any  change  of 
the  regulation,  in  regard  to  suffrage,  a  subject  prolific,  always,  of  much  dissention, 
they  might  have  feared  to  generate  feuds  among  those,  upon  whose  harmony  of  feeling 
and  concert  of  action,  depended  the  salvation  of  their  country.  They  left  it,  there- 
fore, as  tliey  found  it.  The  non  freeholders,  moreover,  unrepresented  in  the  Conven- 
tion, and  for  the  most  part,  probably,  engaged  in  resisting  the  common  enemy,  it  is 
fair  to  infer,  in  the  actual  condition  of  the  country,  had  neither  the  opportunity  nor 
the  inclination  to  press  their  claims.  Nor  should  it  be  forgotten,  that  the  Convention 
having  been  chosen  by  the  freeholders,  whose  political  power  was  derived  from  the 
abrogated  Government,  many  of  our  wisest  Statesmen  regarded  the  Constitution 
itself,  as  wanting  in  authority,  or  at  least  as  repealable  by  a  succeeding  Legislature : 
and,  accordingly,  it  has,  in  point  of  fact,  since  undergone  a  material  change,  in  the 
very  provision  now  in  question,  toucliing  the  right  of  suffrage. 

If  the  Bill  of  Rights  may  not  challenge  respect,  the  opinions  of  any  individual,  how- 
ever eminent,  will  be  still  more  lightly  regarded.    Yet  your  memorialists  cannot  but 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


27 


exult  in  the  countenance  their  cause  has  received  from  him,  who  was  ever  foremost 
to  assert  the  rights  of  his  fellow  men;  the  venerated  author  of  the  Declaration  of  In 
dependence,  and  of  the  Act  <>f  Religious  Freedom.  When  those  rights  are  brought  in 
question,  they  know  of  none  whose  sentiments  are  worthy  of  higher  estimation.  To 
none  among  the  founders  of  our  Republic,  are  we  indebted  for  more  in  its  institutions, 
that  is  admirable  in  theory,  or  valuable  in  practice.  His  name  is  identiiied  with  the 
independence  of  his  country,  with  all  that  is  liberal  and  enlightened  in  her  policy. 
Never  had  liberty  an  advocate  of  more  unaifected  zeal;  of  more  splendid  abilities;  of 
purer  principles.  Nor  is  there  in  ancient  or  modern  times,  an  example  to  be  found  of 
one,  who  in  his  life  and  conduct,  m.ore  strongly  exempLfied  the  sincerity -of  his  faith, 
or  more  brightly  illustrated  the  beauty  of  his  tenets. 

Your  memorialists  could  not  on  this  occasion,  in  iustice  to  themselves,  omit  all  allu- 
sion to  the  avowed  sentiments  of  this  illustrious  Statesman,  nor  withhold  from  his 
memory,  a  passing  tribute  of  admiration  and  gratitude. 

JDreading  the  influence  of  the  doctrines  and  opinions  now  adverted  to,  conscious  of 
the  futility  of  any  attempt  to  reconcile  with  them  their  favorite  policy,  the  enemies  of 
extended  suffrage  have  not  hesitated  to  deride  tiiem  as  the  crude  conceptions  of 
visionary  politicians.  The  Bill  of  Rights,  until  it  became  necessasy  for  their  purposes 
to  assail  it,  the  theme  of  unqualified  approbation,  whilst  they  affect  to  admire  the  beauty 
•of  its  theory,  they  paradoxically  assert,  tends  in  practice  to  mischievous  results.  Its 
principles,  they  cannot  deny,  are  founded  in  truth  and  justice.  But  these  practical 
politicians  look  to  a  higher  sanction,  and  sacrihce  without  remorse  both  justice  and 
truth  on  the  altar  of  expediency.  Would  it  not  be  well  they  should  enlighten  the 
world  with  a  system  of  their  own,  which  should  conform  to  the  practice  they  would 
approve,  and  substitute  the  exploded  theories  of  the  wisest  Statesmen,  the  purest  Pa- 
triots, and  the  soundest  Republicans,  who  ever  adorned  any  age  or  country. 

But  not  to  the  authority  of  great  names  m.eroly,  does  the  existing  restriction  upon 
suffrage  stand  opposed:  reason  and  justice  equally  condemn  it.  The  object,  it  is  pre- 
sumed, meant  to  be  attained,  was,  as  far  as  practicable,  to  admit  the  mtritoricus,  and 
reject  tlie  unworthy.  And  had  this  object  really  been  attained,  whatever  opinions 
might  prevail  as  to  the  mere  right,  not  a  murmur  probably  would  have  been  heard. 
Surely  it  were  much  to  be  desired  that  every  citizen  should  be  qualified  for  the  proper 
exercise  of  all  his  rights,  and  the  due  performance  of  all  his  duties.  But  the  same  qua- 
lifications that  entitle  him  to  assume  the  management  of  his  privn,te  affairs,  and  to  claim  , 
all  other  privileges  of  citizenship,  equally  entitle  him,  in  the  judgment  of  your  memo- 
rialists, to  be  entrusted  with  this,  the  dearest  of  all  his  privileges,  the  most  important 
of  all  his  concerns.  But  if  otherwise,  still  they  cannot  discern  in  the  possession  of  land 
any  evidence  of  peculiar  merit,  or  superior  title.  To  ascribe  to  a  landed  possession, 
moral  or  intellectual  endowments,  would  truly  be  regarded  as  ludicrous,  were  it  not  for 
the  gravity  with  which  the  proposition  is  )naintained,  and  still  more  for  the  grave  con- 
sequences flowing  from  it.  Such  possession  no  mere  proves  him  who  has  it,  wiser  or 
better,  than  it  proves  him  taller  or  stronger,  than  him  who  has  it  not.  ^  That  cannot  _ 
be  a  fit  criterion  for  the  exercise  of  any  nght,  the  possession  cf  wh'ch  dees  not  indi- 
cate the  existence,  nor  the  want  of  it  the  absence,  of  any  essential  qualification. 

But  this  criterion,  it  is  strenuously  insisted,  though  not  perfect,  is  yet  the  best  human 
wisdom  can  devise.  It  affords  the  strongest,  if  not  the  oni}^  evidence  of  the  requisite 
qualifications;  more  particularly  of  what  are  absolutely  essential,  "permanent  com- 
mon interest  with,  and  attachment  to,  the  comm.■anit3^"  Those  who  cannot  furnish 
this  evidence,  are  therefore  deservedly  excluded. 

Your  memorialists  do  not  de-sign  to  institute  a  comparison  ;  they  fear  none  that  can 
be  fairly  made  between  the  privileged  and  the  proscribed  classes.  They  may  be  per- 
mitted, however,  without  disrespect,  to  remark,  that  of  the  latter,  not  a  few  possess 
land  :  many,  though  not  proprietors,  are  yet  cultivators  of  the  soil :  others  are  engaged 
in  avocations  of  a  different  mture.  often  ;is  useful,  pre-supposing  no  less  integrity, 
requiring  as  much  intelligence,  and  as  fixed  a  residence,  as  agricultural  pursuits. 
Virtue,  intelligence,  are  not  among  the  products  of  the  soil.  Attachment  to  property, 
often  a  sordid  sentiment,  is  not  to  be  confounded  with  the  sacred  flame  of  patriotism. 
The  love  of  country,  like  that  of  parents  and  ofF^prnof,  is  enrrafted  in  our  nature.  It 
exists  in  all  climates,  among  all  classes,  under  every  possible  form  of  Government. 
Riches  oftener  impair  it  than  paverty.    Who  has  it  njt  is  a  monster. 

Your  memorialists  feel  the  difficulty  of  undertaking  calmly  to  repel  ch<arges  and  in- 
sinuations involving  in  infamy  themselves,  and  so  large  a  portion  cf  their  fellow- 
citizens.  To  be  deprived  of  their  rightful  equality,  and  to  hear  as  an  apology  that  they 
are  too  ignorant  and  vicious  to  enjoy  it,  is  no  ordinary  trial  of  patience.  Y"et  they  will 
suppress  the  ind'gnant  emotions  these  sweeping  denunciations  ure  well  calculated  to 
excite.  The  freeholders  themselves  ki\ow  them  to  be  unfounded  :  Why,  else,  are 
arms  placed  in  the  hands  of  a  body  of  disaffected  citizens,  so  ignorant,  so  depraved, 
and  so  numerous In  the  hour  of  danger,  they  have  drawn  no  invidious  distinctions 
between  the  sons  of  Virginia.    The  muster  rolls  have  undergone  no  scrutiny,  no  com- 


28 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


parison  with  the  land  books,  with  a  view  to  expunge  those  who  have  been  etruck  from 
the  ranks  of  freemen.  If  the  landless  citizens  have  been  ignominiously  driven  from 
the  poll;-!,  in  tiaie  of  peace,  they  have  at  least  been  generously  summoned,  in  war,  to 
the  uat  tle-field.  Nor  have  thty  di  obeyed  the  summons,  or,li;ss  prolusely  than  others^ 
poured  out  their  blood  in  the  defence  of  that  country  wliich  is  asked  to  disovm  them. 
Will  it  be  said  tliey  ov/e  allegiance  to  the  Government  that  gives  them  protection  ? 
Be  it  so  :  and  if  they  acknowledge  t!ie  obligation  ;  if  privileges  are  really  extended  to 
them  in  defence  of  which  they  may  reasonably  be  required  to  shed  their  blood,  have 
they  not  m')tives,  irresistible  motives,  of  attachment  to  the  community  ?  Have  they 
not  an  interest,  a  deep  interest,  in  perpetuating  the  blessings  they  enjo}^,  and  a  right, 
consequently,  to  guard  those  blessings,  not  Irom  foreign  aggression  merely,  but  from 
domestic  encroacnment  ? 

But,  it  is  said,  yield  them  this  right,  and  they  will  abuse  it :  property,  that  is,  landed 
property ,  will  be  rendered  insecure,  or  at  least  overburthened,  by  those  who  possess  it 
not.    The  Ireehoiders,  on  the  contrary,  can  pass  no  law  to  the  injury  of  any  other 
class,  Vv'hich  will  not  more  injuriously  affect  themselves.    The  alarm  is  sounded  too, 
of  danger  irom  large  manufacturing  institutions,  where  one  corrupt  individual  may 
Bway  tiie  corrupt  votes  of  thousands.    It  were  a  vain  task  to  attempt  to  meet  all  the 
flmisy  pretexts  urged,  to  allay  alb  the  apprehensions  felt  or  feigned  by  the  enemies  of 
a  just  and  liberal  pjlicy.    The  danger  ot  abuse  is  a  dangerous  plea.    Like  necessity, 
tlie  detested  plea  of  the  tyrant,  or  the  still  more  detestible  plea  of  the  Jesuit,  expedi- 
ency ;  it  serves  as  an  ever-ready  apology  for  all  oppression.    If  we  are  sincerely  repub- 
lican, we  must  give  our  confidence  to  the  priciples  we  profess.    We  have  been  taught 
by  our  fathers,  thit  all  pDwer  is  vested  in,  and  derived  from,  the  people  ;  not  the  free- 
holders': that  the  majority  of  the  community,  in  whom  abides  the  physical  force,  have 
also  the  political  right  of  creating  and  remoukf  ng  at  will,  their  civil  institutions.  Nor 
can  this  r'ght  be  any  .where  mere  snfely  deposited.-  The  generality  of  mankind,  doubt- 
less, dss're  to  becom.e  owners  of  property  :  left  free  to  reap  the  fruit  of -their  labcurs, 
they  will  seek  to  acquire  it  honestly,    it  can  never  bs  th(^ir  interest  to.overburthen, 
or  render  precarious,  Vv'liat  they  themselves  desire  to  enjoy,  m  peace.    But  should  they 
ever  prove  as  base  as  the  argument  supposes,  fbi-ce  alone  ;  arms,  not  votes,  could  effect 
their  designs  ;  and  when  th  it  shall  be  aitempted,  what  virtue  is  there  in  Constitutional 
restrictions,  in  mere  wax  and  paper,  to  v/ithstand  it.^    To  deny  to  the  great  body  of 
the  people  all  share  in  the  Government ;  on  suspicion  that  they  may  deprive  others  of 
their  property,  to  rob  thein,  in  advance  of  their  rights  ;  to  look  to  a  privileged  order  as 
the  fountain  and  depository  of  all  power  ;  is  to  depart  from  the  fundamental  maxims, 
to  destroy  the  chief  beauty,  the  characteristic  feature,  indeed,  of  Republican  Govern- 
ment.   Nor  is  the  danger  of  abuse  thereby  diminished,  but  greatly  augmented.  No 
community  can  exist,  no  representative  body  be  formed,  in  which  some  one  division 
of  persons  or  section  of  cmntry,  or  some  two  or  more  combined,  may  not  preponde- 
rate and  oppress  the  rest.    The  east  may  be  more  powerful  than  the  west,  the  low- 
landers  than  the  liighlnriders,  the  agricultural  than  the  commercial  or  manufacturing 
classes.    To  give  all  power,  or  an  undue  share,  to  one,  is  obviously  not  to  remedy  but 
to  ensure  the  evil.    Its  s  ifest  check,  its  best  correcti^  e,  is  found  in  a  general  admis- 
sion of  all  upon  a  footing  of  equality.    So  intimately  are  the  interests  of  each  class 
in  society  blended  and  mt TVv'oven,  so  indispensible  is  justice  to  all,  that  oppression  in 
that  case  becomes  less  prcLable  ifom  any  one,  however  pov/erful.    Nor  is  this  mere 
speculation.    In  our  ecclesiastical -polity  it  has  been  reduced  to  practice  ;  and  the  most 
opposed  in  doctrine,  the  most  bitter  in  controVersy,  have  forgotten  their  angry  conflicts 
for  power,  and  now  mingle  in  harniony. 

The  example  of  almost  every  other  State  in  the  Union,  in  which  the  patrician  pre- 
tensions of  the  landholder  have,  since  their  foundation,  been  unknown  or  despised, 
in  many  of  wliicli,  too,  manufacturing  institutions  exist  on  an  extensive  scale,  ought 
alone  to  dispel  these  visionary  fears  of  danger  from  the  people.  Indeed,  all  history 
demonstrates  that  the  many  have  oftener  been  the  victims  than  the  oppressors.  Cun- 
nlng  has  proved  an  over-m  itcli  for  strength.  Tiie  few  have  but  too  v/ell  succeeded  in 
convincing  them  of  their  incapacity  to  manage  their  own  affairs  ;  and  h.aving  persua- 
ded them,  for  their  own  good,  to  submit  to  the  curb,  have  generously  taken  the  reins, 
and  naturally  enough  converted  them  into  leasts  of  burthen. 

_  As  to  the  danger  from  large  manufacLuring  establishments  in  Virginia,  when  is  their  , 
disastrous  influence  to  be  experienced.?  is  it  not  apparent  that  such  establishments 
musr.for  an  indefinite  period,  be  at  the  mercy  of  those  who  affect  to  dread  them,  and 
rnay  be  shackled  or  suppressed,  as  i'vax  or  fancy  may  dictate.?  For  how  many  centu- 
ries must  the  defranchised  citizens  be  content  to  relinquish  their  rights,  because,  in 
some  remote  age  of  the  world,  a  distant  posterity,  similarly  circumstanced,  may  be 
pov/erful  enough,  and  base  enough  withal,  to  trample  upon  the  rights  of  others.? 

But  >r  justice' is  not  to  be  expected,  if  self-aggrandizement  is  to  be  assumed  as  the 
Eole  ruling  principle  of  men  in  power,  then,  your  memorialists  conceive,  the  interests 
of  the  many  deserve  at  least  as  much  to  be  guarded  as  those  of  the  few.  Conceding' 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


29 


the  truth  of  the  proposition  assumed,  what  security,  they  would  enquire,  is  there 
acrainst  the  injustice  of  the  freeholders?  How  is  the  assertion  made  good,  that  they 
can  pass  no  I  iw  affecting  tlie  rights  of  others  without  more  injuriously  alFecting  their 
own  ?  They  cannot  do  this,  it  -is  said,  because  they  possess,  in  common  with  other 
citizens,  all  personal  rights,  and,  in  addition,  the  rights  pertaining  to  their  peculiar 
property.  And  if  this  be  a  satisfactory  reason,  then  one  land-holder  in  each  county 
or  district  would  suffice  to  elect  the  representative  body ;  or,  the  impossibility  of  in- 
juring others  being  shev/n,  a  single  land-holder  in  the  Commonwealth  might  still 
more'^conveniently  exercise  the  sovereign  pov\-er.  Jut,  is  not  the  proposition  obvi- 
ouslv  false  ?  What  is  there  to  prevent  their  imposing  upon  others  undue  burthens, 
and  conferring  on  themselves  unjust  exemptions?  Supplying  the  pxiblic  exigencies 
hy  a  capitation  or  other  tax  exclusively  or  oppressively  operating  on  the  other  portions 
of  the  community  ?  Exacting  from  the  latter,  in  common  with  slaves,  menial  services  ? 
Placing  around  their  own  persons  and  property  more  efficient  guards  ?  Providing  for 
their  own  injuries  speedier  remedies?  Denying  to  the  children  of  all  other  classes  ' 
admission  to  the  public  seminaries  of  learning  ?  Interdicting  to  all  but  their  own 
order,  indeed,  the  power  to  elect,  and  the  right  to  be  elected,  are  most  intimately  if 
not  inseparably  united  ;  al^  offices  of  honor  or  emolument,  civil  or  military  ?  Why 
can  they  not  do  all  this,  and  more  ?  Where  is  the  impossibility  ?  It  would  be  mi- 
just:  admirable  logic  !    Injustice  can  be  predicated  only  of  non-freeholders. 

Still  it  is  said,  the  non-freeholders  have  no  just  cause  of  complaint.  A  freehold  is 
easily  acquired.  The  right  of  suffrage,  moreover,  is  not  a  natural  rio-ht.  Society 
may  grant,  modify,  or  withlrald  it,  as  expediency  may  require.  Indeed  all  agree  that 
certain  regulations  are  proper :  those,  for  example,  relating  to  age,  sex,  and  citizen- 
ship. At  best,  it  is  an  idle  contest  for  an  abstract  right  whose  loss  is  attended  with  no 
practical  evil. 

If  a  freehold  be,  as  supposed,  so  easily  acquired,  it  would  5eem  highly  impolitic,  to 
say  no  more,  to  insist  on  retaining  an  odious  regulation,  calculated  to  produce  no 
other  effect  than  to  excite  discontent.  But  the  fact  is  not  so.  The  thousands  expell- 
ed from  the  polls  too  v\' ell  attest  the  severity  of  its  operation.  It  is  by  no  means  easy 
or  convenient  for  persons  whom  fortune  or  iuclihation  have  engaged  in  other  than 
agricultural  pursuits,'  to  withdraw  from  these  pursuits,  or  from  the  support  of  their 
famihes,  the  amount  requisite  for  the  purchase  of  a" freehold.  To  compel  them  to  do 
this,  to  vest  that  sum  in  unproductive  property,  is  to  subject  them,  over  and  above  the 
original  cost,  the  assessments  upon  it,  and  ,the  probable  loss  by  deterioration,  to  an 
annual  tax,  equivalent"  to  the  profits  they  niight  have  derived  from  the  capital  thus 
unprofitably  expended.  What  would  be  thought  of  a  tax  imposed,  or  penalty  inflict- 
ed, upon  all  voters,  for  exercising  what  should  be  the  unbouglit  privilege  of  every 
citizen?  How  much  more  odious  is  the  law  that  imposes  tliis  tax,  or  rather,  it  may  be 
said,  inflicts  this  penaltj^,  on  one  portion  of  the  community,  probably  the  larger  and 
least  able  to  encounter  it,  and  exempts  the  other? 

The  right  of  suffrage,  however,  it  seems,  is  not  a  natural  right.  If  by  natural,  is 
meant  what  is  just  and  reasonable,  then,  nothing  is  mors  reasonable  than  that  those 
whose  purses  contribute  to  maintain,  whose  lives  are  pledged  to  defeiid  the  country, 
should  participate  in  all  the  privileges  of  citizenship.  But  say  it  is  not  a  natural 
right.  Whence  did  the  freeholders  derive  it  ?  How  become  its  exclusive  possessors  ? 
Will  the}'-  arrogantly  tell  us  they  own  the  country,  because  they  hold  the  land  ?  The 
right  by  which  they  hold  their  land  is  net  itself  a  natural  right,  and  hy  conseauence, 
notliing  claimed  as  incidental  to  it.  "Whence  then  did  they  derive  this  privileo-e  ? 
From  grant  or  conquest?  Not  from  the  latter.  No  war  has  ever  been  wao-ed  to  as- 
sert it.  If  from  the  -former,  by  whom  was  it  conferred?  They  cannot,  if  they 
would,  recur  to  the  P«.oyal  Instructions  of  that  English  monarch,  of  infamous  memory, 
who  enjoined  it  upon  the  GoverJior  of  the  then  Colony  of  Vu'ginia,  to  take  care  that 
the  members  of  the  Assembly  be  elected  0/^7;/  by  the  freeholders,  as  being  more  aoreeable 
to  the  custome  of  England:"  he  might  have  added  more  congenial  also  with^'monar- 
chical  institutions.  If  Colonial  regulations  might  properly  be  looked  to,  then  the 
right,  not  of  freeholders  merely,  but  of  freemen^to  vote,  may  be  traced  to  a  more  dis- 
tant antiqmty,  and  a  less  polluted  source.  But,  by  our  ever-glorious  revolution,  the 
Government  whence  these  regulations  emanated,  -vras  annuHed,  and  v/ith  it  all  the 
pohtical  privileges  it  had  conferred,  swept  away.  Will  they  rely  on  the  Constitutional 
provision  ?_  That  was  the  act  of  men  delegated  by  themselves.  They  exercised  the 
very  right  in  question  in  appointing  the  body  from,  whom  they  profess  to  derive  it,  and 
indeed  gave  to  that  body  all  the  power  it  possessed.  What  is  this  but  to  say  they  ge- 
nerously ccm'erred  the  privilege  upon  themselves  ?  Perhaps  they  may  rely  on  length 
of  time  to  forestal  enquiry.  We  acknov.dedge  no  act  of  limitations  against  the  op- 
pressed. Or  will  they  disdain  to  shew  any  title  :  and,  clinging  to  power,  rest  on 
force,  the  last  argument  of  Kings,  as  its  source  azid  its  defence?''  This  were,  doubt- 
less, the  more  politic  course. 


30 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Let  us  concede  that  the  right  of  suffrage  is  a  social  right ;  that  it  must  of  necessity 
be  regulated  by  society.  Still  the  question  recurs,  is  the  existing  limitation  proper? 
For  obvious  reasons,  by  almost  universal  consent,  women  and  children,  aliens  and 
slaves,  are  excluded.  It  were  useless  to  discuss  the  propriety  of  a  rule  that  scarcely 
admits  of  diversity  of  opinion.  What  is  concurred  in  by  those  who  constitute  the 
society,  the  body  politic,  must  be  taken  to  be  right.  But  the  exclusion  of  these  classes 
for  reasons  peculiarly  applicable  to  them,  is  no  argument  for  excluding  others  to  whom 
no  one  of  those  reasons  applies. 

It  is  said  to  be  expedient,  however,  to  exclude  non-freeholders  also.  Who  shall 
judge  of  this  expediency The  society :  and  does  tliat  embrace  the  proprietors  of 
certain  portions  of  land  only  ?  Expedient,  for  whom  ?  for  the  freeholders.  A  harsh 
appellation  would  he  deserve,  wlao,  on  the  plea  of  expediency,  should  take  from  ano- 
ther his  property  :  what,  then,  should  be  said  of  him  v/ho,  on  that  plea,  takes  from 
another  his  rights,  upon  which  the  security,  not  of  his  property  only,  but  of  his  life 
and  liberty  depends  ? 

But  the  non-freeholders  are  condemned  for  pursuing  an  abstract  right,  whose  pri- 
vation occasions  no  practical  injury. 

Your  memorialists  do  not,  perhaps,  sufficiently  comprehend  the  precise  import  of 
this  language,  so  often  used.  The  enjoyment  of  all  otlier  rights,  whether  of  person 
or  property,  they  will  not  deny,  may  be  as  perfect  among  those  deprived  of  the  privi- 
lege of  voting,  as  among  those  possessing  it.  It  may  be  as  great  under  a  despotism, 
as  under  any  other  form  of  Government.  But  they  alone  deserve  to  be  called  free,  or 
have  a  guarantee  for  their  rights,  who  participate  in  the  formation  of  their  political 
institutions,  and  in  the  control  of  those  who  make  and  administer  the  laws.  To  such 
as  may  be  disposed  to  surrender  this,  or  any  other  immunity,  to  the  keeping  of  others, 
no  practical  mischief  may  ensue  from  its  abandonment;  or  if  any,  none  that  will  not 
be  justly  merited.  Not  so  with  him  who  feels  as  a  freeman  should  ;  who  would  think 
for  himself  and  speak  what  he  thinks;  who  would  not  commit  his  conscience  or  his 
liberty  to  the  uncontrolled  direction  of  others.  To  him  the  privation  of  right,  of 
that  especially,  which  is  the  only  safeguard  of  freedom,  is  practically  wrong.  So 
thought  the  fatliers  of  the  republic.  It  was  not  the  oppressive  weight  of  the  taxes 
imposed  by  England  on  America:  it  was  the  assertion  of  a  right  to  impose  any  bur- 
tliens  whatever  upon  those  who  were  not  represented  ;  to  bind  by  laws  those  who  had 
no  share,  personal  or  delegated,  in  their  enactment,  that  roused  this  continent  to 
arms.  Have  the  principles  and  feelings  that  then  prevailed,  perished  with  the  conflict 
to  which  they  gave  birth  ?  If  not,  are  they  not  now  grossly  outraged  ?  The  question 
is  submitted  to  your  candor  and  justice. 

Never  can  your  m.emorialists  agree  that  pecuniary  burthens  or  personal  violence  are 
the  sole  injuries  of  which  men  may  dare  to  complain.  It  may  be  that  the  freeholders 
have  shewn  no  disposition  greatly  to  abuse  the  power  they  have  assumed.  They 
may  have  borne  themselves  with  exemplary  moderation.  But  their  unrepresented 
brethren  cannot  submit  to  a  degrading  regulation  which  takes  from  them,  on  the 
supposition  of  mental  inferiority  or  moral  depravity,  all  share  in  the  Government  un- 
der which  they  live.  They  cannot  yield  to  pretensions  of  political  superiority  found- 
ed on  the  possession  of  a  bit  of  land,  of  whatever  dimensions.  They  cannot  acqui- 
esce in  political  bondage,  because  those  who  affect  to  sway  over  them  the  rod  of  em- 
pire, treat  them  leniently.  The  privilege  which  they  claim,  they  respectfully  insist, 
is  theirs  as  of  right;  and  they  are  under  no  obligation  to  assign  any  reason  whatever 
for  claiming  it,  but  that  it  is  their  own. 

Let  the  picture  be  for  a  moment  reversed.  Let  it  be  imagined  that  the  non-free- 
holders, possessing  the  physical  superiority  which  alone  can  cause  their  political  in- 
fluence to  be  dreaded,  should,  at  some  future  day,  after  the  manner  of  the  frcclioldcrs, 
take  the  Government  into  their  own  hands,  and  deal  out  to  the  latter  the  same  mea- 
sure of  justice  they  have  received  at  their  hands.  It  is  needless  to  enquire  into  the 
equity  of  such  a  proceeding;  but  would  they  not  find  for  it  in  the  example  set  them 
at  least  a  plausible  excuse,  and  to  the  freeholders'  remonstrance  retort  the  freeholders' 
argument  ?  That  argument  your  memorialists  will  not  now  recapitulate  ;  they  leave 
it  to  others  to  make  the  application. 

Your  memorialists  have  thought  it  due  to  the  magnitude  of  the  question,  to  exa- 
mine at  some  length  the  grounds  on  which  their  political  proscription  is  usually  de- 
fended. If  they  have  occasionally  been  betrayed  into  warmth  of  expression,  the 
transcendanl  importance  of  the  franchise  they  claim,  and  the  nature  of  the  objections 
they  have  been  compelled  to  meet,  will  plead  their  apology.  Deep  would  be  their 
humiliation  in  now  addressing  you,  delegated  as  you  have  been  by  those  who  hold 
them  in  political  subjection,  did  tliey  not  but  too  well  remember,  it  is  their  brethren 
to  whom  they  impute  their  wrongs,  and  from  whom  they  solicit  reparation.  Never, 
indeed,  can  they  cease  to  protest  against  the  measures  which  have  made  you,  not  the 
representatives  of  the  people,  but  the  organ  of  a  privileged  order.  Still  they  approach 
you  as  the  guardians  of  the  public  weal,  however  so  constituted;  as  dispensers  of  the 


DEBATES    OF    THE  CONVENTION. 


31 


public  justice ;  as  an  assemblage  of  distinguished  citizens  T;\-ielding  the  poiver,  howe- 
ver irregularly  conferred,  of  new-modelliug  the  fundamental  institutions  of  the  State. 
They  bow  with  respectful  deference  to  the  virtues  and  talents  which  have  raised  you 
to  the  eminent  station  you  now  occupy.  They  appeal,  through  you,  to  the  justice  of 
their  country,  and  confidently  trust,  under  your  auspices,  to  assume  that  equal 
rank  in  the' community,  to  wliich  they  conceive  themselves  justly  entitled,  and 
which,  until  they  shall  indeed  be  xmwortliy  to  enjoy  it.  they  can  never  v,-illingly  re- 
nounce. 

In  behalf  of  the  meeting, 

WALTER  D.  BLAIR,  Chairman. 

Teste, 

JoHv  B.  R.iCHARi)So:?,  Secretary. 

Mr.  Marshall  said  that,  however  gentlemen  might  differ  in  opinion  on  the  question 
discussed  in  the  memorial,  he  was  sure  they  must  all  feel  that  the  subject  was  one  of 
the  deepest  interest,  and  well  entitled  to  the  most  serious  attention  of  this  body.  He 
therefore  moved  its  reference  to  the  Committee  on  the  Legislative  Department  of 
Government. 

The  motion  was  agreed  to.  and  the  memorial  referred  accordingly. 

Mr.  Mercer  then  presented  a  memorial,  winch,  he  said,  came  from  a  highly  res- 
pectable body  of  citizens  in  Fairfax  county.  Its  purport  and  tenor  were^very  si- 
milaj:  to  tliat  which  had  just  been  read;  and  he  moved  its  reference  to  the  same 
Committee. 

The  motion  was  agreed  to.  and  the  reading  of  the  memorial  having  been  dispensed 
with,  it  was  referred  to  the  Legislative  Committee. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  M'Coy,  the  House  then  adjourned,  to  meet  to-morrow  at  on© 
o'clock. 


WEDNESDAY,  Octobt.r  14,  lr29.      ^    -  i~ 

The  Convention  met  at  one  o'clock,  and  its  sitting  was  opened  ^-ith  praver  by  the 
Rev.  Mr.  Taylor,  of  the  Baptist  Church. 
]So  business  presenting  itself, 

Mr.  M"Coy  moved  an  adjournment,  but  withdrew  his  motion  in  favor  of  Mr.  Dod- 
dridge, who  moved  a  recess  of  the  House  till  four  o'clock,  hoping  that  the  First  Au- 
ditor might  have  had  time  to  prepare  and  lay  before  the  House  the  documents  which 
had  been  ordered  by  the  Convention. 

The  President  then  laid  before  the  House  the  followina:  letter  from  the  Au- 
ditor : 

Auditor's  Office,  ) 
October  13.  1629.  ] 

Sir: — In  compliance  with  one  of  the  resolutions  adopted  by  the  Convention  on  the 
10th  inst.  I  have  the  honor  to  transmit  a  statement  of  the  number  of  persons  in  each 
county,  and  corporate  town,  within  this  Commonwealth,  charged  with  State  tax  on 
rnoveable  property,  for  the  year  1628.  The  documents  called  for  by  the  other  resolu- 
tions will  be  furnished  as  soon  as  they  can  be  prepared. 
I  have  the  honor  to  be.  Sir, 

With  great  respect  and  consideration. 
Your  obedient  servant, 

JAMES  E.  HEATH, 
Aiulitor  of  Public  Accomits. 

James  Moxroe,  Esq. 

President  of  the  Convention. 

Mr.  Doddridge  moved  to  lay  the  communication  on  the  table  and  print  it,  and  that 
the  Auditor  should  dehver  the  residue  when  prepared  to  the  public  printer. 
The  motion  was  aoTeed  to. 

Mr.  Johnson,  with  a  view  to  give  the  Committees  more  time,  moved  tliat  when  the 
House  adjo-orned.  it  adjourn  to  meet  at  two  instead  of  one  o'clock,  wliich  being  agreed 
to,  on  motion  of  Mr.  Doddridge,  the  Convention  adjourned. 


32 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


THURSDAY,  October  15,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  two  o'clock,  agreeably  to  adj.^urnment,  and  was  opened 
with  prayer  by  tlie  Rev.  Mr.  Kerr,  of  the  Riptist  Church. 

Mr.  Anderson  presented  a  memorial  froiii  the  non-freeholders  of  Shenandoah, 
praying  the  extension  of  the  right  of  suffrage ;  which,  on  Mr.  Anderson's  motion, 
was  referred  to  the  Legislative  Committee. 

Mr.  M'Coy  rose  to  observe,  that  having  no  disposition  to  sit  there,  or  see  others  sit 
there,  without  having  something  to  do,  he  moved  that  the  Convention  rise;  which  was 
agreed  to  witliout  opposition. 

And  then  the  Convention  adjourned  until  to-morrow,  two  o'clock. 


FRIDAY,  October  16,  1829.  ; 

The  Convention  assembled  at  two  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev. 
Mr.  Taylor,  of  the  Baptist  Church :  '  , 

And  (liaving  no  business  before  them)  on  Mr.  Naylor's  motion,  the  Convention 
adjourned  till  to-morrow,  two  o'clock.  '  •        '-        .  "  - 


SATURDAY,  October  17,  1829. 

The  Rev.  Mr.  Kerr  ofFtJred  up  a  prayer;  after  which,  the  Convention  was  called  to 
order. 

No  business  being  yet  ready  to  be  laid  before  the  Convention,  Mr.  Doddridge  moved 
that  the  Convention  adjourn;  he  stated  that  some  additional  documents  had  been 
prepared  by  tbe  Auditor  of  Public  Accounts,  which  would  be  placed  in  the  hands  of 
the  public  printer  under  a  previous  resolution  of  that  body. 

TJie  motion  to  adjourn  prevailed  without  opposition ;  and  the  Convention  accord- 
ingly adjourned  till  Monday,  two  o'clock. 


'       MONDAY,  October  19,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  two  o'clock,  and  its  sitting  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the 
Rev.  Mr.  Arnistrong,  of  the  Presbyterian  Church. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh,  from  the  Committee  on  Compensations,  made  the  following  farther 
report,  in  part :  V  ' 

The  Committee  appointed  to  enquire  into  the  compensation  proper  to  be  allowed 
the  officers  of  the  Convention,  have  agreed  to  the  following  resolution : 

Resolved,  That  the  sum  of  sixteen  dollars  be  allovv'ed  the  Sergeant  at  Arms  for  no- 
tifying William  K.  Perrin  of  his  election  to  the  Convention. 

The  report  was  adopted.  -  .  - 

Mr.  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  from  the  Committee  on  the  Bill  of  Rights,  ^-c.  made 
the  following  report: 

The  Committee  to  whom  was  referred  the  Bill  or  Declaration  of  Rights,  and  all 
such  parts  of  the  present  Constitution  as  are  not  referred  to  the  Committees  on  the 
Legislative,  Executive  and  Judicial  Departments  of  the  Government,  have  had  the 
subjects  to  them  referred,  under  their  consideration,  and  have  in  part  performance  of 
the  duties  devolved  on  them,  agreed  upon  the  following  resolution  : 

Resolved,  That  in  the  opinion  of  this  Committee  the  Bill  or  Declaration  of  Rights, 
&c.  requires  no  amendment." 

The  report  v/as  laid  upon  the  table.  .  '-    "  -  — 

Mr.  Harrison  of  Rockingham,  presented  a  'memorial  from  the  non-freeholders  of 
that  county  of  a  similar  general  import  to  those  heretofore  presented  ;  and  which  was, 
on  his  motion,  referred  without  reading  to  the  Legislative  Committee. 

No  farther  business  being  before  the  Convention,  on  motion  of  Mr.  Mercer,  the 
House  adjourned. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


33 


TUESDAY,  October  20,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  two  o'clock,  when  its  sitting  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the 
Rev.  Mr.  Hamner,  of  the  Presbyterian  Church. 

Mr.  Marshall,  from  the  Connnittee  on  the  Judiciary  Department  of  Government, 
made  the  following-  report  from  the  Committee : 

1.  Resolved,  That  the  Judicial  power  shall  be  vested  in  a  Court  of  Appeals,  in  such 
Inferior  Courts,  as  the  Legislature  shall  from  time  to  time  ordain  and  establish,  and  in 
the  County  Courts.  The  jurisdiction  of  these  tribunals  shall  be  regulated  by  law. 
The  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals  and  of  the  Inferior  Courts,  shall  hold  their  offi- 
ces during  good  behaviom-,  or  until  removed  in  the  manner  prescribed  in  this  Consti- 
tution ;  and  shall,  at  the  same  time,  hold  no  other  office,  appointment,  or  public  trust: 
and  the  acceptance  thereof,  by  either  of  them,  shall  vacate  his  judicial  office.  No 
modification  or  abolition  of  any  Court,  shall  be  construed  to  deprive  any  Judge  thereof 
of  his  office  ;  but  such  Judge  shall  perform  any  judicial  duties  which  the  Legislature 
shall  assign  him. 

2.  Resolved,  That  the  present  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals,  Judges  of  the  Gen- 
eral Court,  and  Chancellors  remain  in  office  until  the  expiration  of  the  first  session  of 
the  Legislature,  held  under  the  new  Constitution,  and  no  longer.  But  the  Legisla- 
ture may  cause  to  be  paid  to  such  of  them,  as  shall  not  be  re-appointed,  such  sum  as, 
from  their  age,  infirmities,  and  past  services,  shall  be  deemed  reasonable. 

3.  Resolved,  That  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals  and  Inferior  Courts,  except  Jus- 
tices of  the  County  Courts,  and  the  Aldermen  or  other  Magistrates  of  Corporation 
Courts,  shall  be  elected 'by  the  concurrent  vote,  of  both  Houses  of  the  General  As- 
sembly, each  House  voting  separately,  and  having  a  negative  on  the  other ;  and  the 
members  thereof  voting  tiva  voce.  The  votes  of  the  members  shall  be  entered  on  the 
Journals  of  their  respective  Houses.  Should  the  two  Houses,  in  any  case,  fail  to 
concur  in  the  election  of  a  Judge,  diu-ing  the  session,  the  Governor  shall  decide  the 
election,  by  appointing  one  of  the  two  persons  who  first  received  a  majority  of  votes 
in  the  Houses  in  which  they  were  respectively  voted  for.  But  if  any  vacancy  shall 
occur  during  the  recess  of  the  General  Assembly,  the  Governor,  or  other  person  per- 
forming the  duty  of  Governor,  may  appoint  a  person  to  fill  such  vacancy,  who  shall 
continue  in  office  until  the  end  of  the  next  succeeding  session  of  the  General  As- 
sembly. 

4.  Resolved,  That  the  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals,  and  of  the  Inferior  Courts, 
shall  receive  fixed  and  adequate  salaries,  Avhich  shall  not  be  diminished  during  their 
continuance  in  office. 

5.  Resolved,  That  on  the  creation  of  any  new  county,  Justices  of  the  Peace  shall 
be  appointed,  in  the  first  instance,  as  may  be  prescribed  by  law.  When  vacancies 
shall  occur  in  any  county,  or  it  shall,  for  any  cause  be  deemed  necessary  to  increase 
their  number,  appointments  shall  be  made  by  the  Governor,  by  and  with  the  advice 
and  consent  of  the  Senate,  on  the  recommendation  of  their  respective  County  Courts. 

6.  Resolved,  That  the  Clerks  of  the  several  Courts  shall  be  appointed  by  their  re- 
spective Courts,  and  their  tenure  of  office  be  prescribed  by  law. 

7.  Resolved,  That  the  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals  and  of  the  Inferior  Courts, 
offending  against  the  State,  either  by  mal-administration,  corruption,  or  neglect  of 
duty,  or  by  any  other  high  crime  or  misdemeanor,  shall  be  impeachable  by  the  House 
of  Delegates,  such  impeachment  to  be  prosecuted  before  the  Senate.  If  found  guilty 
by  a  majority  of  two-thirds  of  the  whole  Senate,  such  persons  shall  be  removed  from 
office.  And  any  Judge  so  impeached  sliall  be  suspended  from  exercising  the  func- 
tions of  his  office  until  his  acquittal,  or  until  the  impeachment  shall  be  discontinued  or 
withdrawn. 

8.  Resolved,  That  Judges  may  be  removed  from  office  by  a  vote  of  the  General  As- 
sembly :  but  two-thirds  of  the  whole  number  of  each  House  must  concur  in  such  vote, 
and  the  cause  of  removal  shall  be  entered  on  the  Journals  of  each.  The  Judge 
against  whom  the  Legislature  is  about  to  proceed  shall  receive  notice  thereof,  accom- 
panied witli  a  copy  of  the  causes  alleged  for  his  removal,  at  least  twenty  days  before 
the  day  on  which  either  Plouse  of  the  General  Assembly  shall  act  thereupon. 

The  report  having  been  read,  on  motion  of  Mr.  Marshall,  it  was  laid  upon  the 
table. 

Mr.  Gile  s,  from  the  Committee  on  the  Executive  Department  of  Government, 
made  the  following  report,  which  was  read,  and  on  his  motion,  laid  upon  the  table. 

The  Committee  appointed  on  the  Executive  branch  of  the  Constitution,  have,  ac- 
cording to  order,  had  under  consideration  the  subjects  referred  to  them,  and  have 
come  to  the  following  resolutions  thereupon  : 

1.  Resolved,  That  the  chief  Executive  Office  of  this  Commonwealth,  ought  to  be 
vested  in  a  Governor. 

5 


34 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONTENTION. 


2.  Resolved,  That  there  ought  to  be  appointed  a  Lieutenant-Governor  of  this  Com» 
monwealth.  .  i 

3.  Resolved,  That  the  Execxitive  Council,  as  at  present  organized,  ought  to  be  abol- 
ished, and  that  it  is  inexpedient  to  provide  any  other  Executive  Council. 

4.  Resolved,  That  in  case  of  the  removal  of  the  Governor  from  office,  or  of  his  death, 
resio-nation,  or  inability  to  discharge  the  duties  and  powers  of  his  office,  the  said  pow- 
ers and  duties  shall  devolve  on  the  Lieutenant-Governor;  and  the  Legislature  may 
provide  for  the  case  of  removal,  death,  or  similar  inability  of  the  Lieutenant-Governor. 

5.  Resolved,  That  the  sheriffs  in  the  different  counties  in  the  Commonwealth, 
shall,  hereafter,  be  elected  by  the  voters  qualifi<«d  to  vote  for  the  most  numerous- 
branch  of  the  Legislature.  •     ,  •       J  4. 

(3.  Resolved,  That  the  commissioned  officers  of  militia.  companies  be  nominated  to 
the  Executive  by  a  majority  of  their  respective  companies. 

7.  Resolved,  That  the  field  officers  of  regiments  be  nominated  to  the  Executive  by 
a  majority  of  the  commissioned  officers  of  their  respective  regiments. 

8.  Resolved,  That  no  pardon  shall  be  granted  in  any  case,  until  after  conviction  or 
judgment. 

Both  reports  were  subsequently  ordered  to  be  printed. 

Mr.  Giles  farther  stated,  tliat  he  Avas  instructed  by  the  Committee,  to  ask  that  they 
be  discharged  from  the  farther  consideration  of  the  subjects  referred  to  them,  and  he 
made  that  motion  accordingly,  which  was  agreed  to,  and  the  Committee  was  thereupon 
discharged. 

Mr.  Fowell  of  Frederick,  said,  that  having  belonged  to  the  Committee  which  had 
last  reported,  and  having  in' that  Committee  been  in  a  large  minority  of  its  members, 
who  were  in  favour  of  a  very  different  organization  of  the  Executive  Department  of 
GoverniTient,  from  that  which  the  Committee  had  adopted,  and  just  reported  to  the. 
House,  he  asked  permission  to  read,  and  to  lay  upon  the  table,  certain  resolutions 
which  he  held  in  his  hand.  Leave  having  been  granted,  Mr.  Powell  then  offered 
the  following,  which  were  read,  laid  vipon  the  table,  and  ordered  to  be  printed,  viz : 

Resolved,  That  the  Executive  Department  of  the  existing  form  of  Government 
ouo-ht  to  be  amended  as  follows  : 

§EC.  1.  The  Executive  power  shall  be  vested  in  a  Governor.  He  shall  hold  his  of- 
fice for  years,  and  be  ineligible  for  the  term  of  years  thereafter.  And  a 
Lieu' enant- Governor  shall  be  chosen  at  the  same  time,  for  the  same  term,  and  under 
the  same  restrictions. 

Sec.  2.  The  Lieutenant-Governor  shall  act  as  President  of  the  Senate,  but  he  shall 
have  no  right  to  vote  except  the  Senate  be  equally  divided  upon  any  question ;  in 
which  case  he  shall  have  the  casting  vote. 

Sec.  3.  No  person  shall  be  eligible  to  the  office  of  Governor  or  Lieutenant-Gover- 
nor, except  a  citizen  of  the  Commonwealth,  nor  any  who  shall  not  have  attained  the 
age  of  years,  and  who  shall  not  have  resided  years  next  preceding  his 

election,  in  the  State. 

Sec.  4.  The  Governor  and  Lieutenant-Governor  shall  be  elected  at  the  times  and 
places  of  choosing  members  of  the  most  numerous  branch  of  the  Legislature,  l^y  the 
voters  qualified  to  vote  for  members  of  the  General  Assembly  ;  provided  that  the 
election  shall  take  place  throughout  the  Commonwealth  on  the  same  day.  The  per- 
sons respectively  having  the  highest  number  of  votes  for  Governor  and  Lieutenant- 
Governor,  shall  be  elected.  In  case  two  or  more  persons  shall  have  an  equal  number 
of  votes  for  Governor  or  for  Lieutenant-Governor,  the  Legislature  shall  immediately 
by  joint  ballot  of  both  Houses,  choose  of  the  persons  having  an  equal  number  of 
votes  for  Governor  or  Lieutenant-Governor,  the  Governor  or  Lieutenant-Governor, 
as  the  case  may  be. 

Sec  5.  The  Governor  shall  be  commander-in-chief  of  the  militia.  He  shall  have 
power  to  convene  the  Legislature  on  extraordinary  occasions.  He  shall,  from  time 
to  time,  give  information  to  the  Legislature  of  the  condition  of  the  Commonwealth, 
and  recommend  to  their  consideration,  such  measures  as  he  shall  judge  necessary  and 
expedient.  He  shall  expedite  all  such  measures  as  may  be  resolved  upon  by  the  Le- 
gislature, and  shall  take  care  that  the  laws  are  faithfully  executed. 

Sec  6.  The  Governor  and  Lieutenant-Governor,  shall,  at  stated  times,  receive  for 
their  services,  a  compensation  which  shall  neither  be  increased  nor  diminished  during 
the  term  for  which  they  shall  have  been  elected. 

Sec  7.  The  Governor-  shall  have  power  to  grant  reprieves  and  pardons  after  con- 
viction, for  all  offences,  except  treasons  and  in  cases  of  impeachment.  Upon  convic- 
tion for  treason,  he  shall  have  power  to  suspend  the  execution  of  the  sentence,  until 
the  case  shall  be  reported  to  the  Legislature  at  its  next  session,  when  the  Legislature 
may  pardon,  or  direct  the  execution  of  the  criminal,  or  gi-ant  a  farther  reprieve. 

Sec  8.  In  case  of  the  removal  of  the  Governor  from  office,  or  of  his  death,  resig- 
nation, or  inability  to  discharge  the  duties  of  his  office,  his  powers  and  duties  shall 
devolve  on  the  Lieutenant-Governor;  and  in  case  of  the  removal,  death,  or  resigna- 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


35 


tion,  or  like  inability  of  the  Lieutenant-Governor,  the  Legislature  may  provide  by 
law  upon  whom  the  duties  of  Governor  shall  devolve,  until  such  disabilities  shall  be 
removed,  or  a  Governor  shall  be  elected. 

Sec.  9.  The  Governor  shall  have  power  to  nominate,  and  by  and  with  the  advice 
and  consent  of  the  Senate,  appoint  Judges  of  the  Supreme  Court,  or  Court  of  Final 
Jurisdiction,  and  Judges  of  such  Inferior  Courts  as  may  from  time  to  time  be  estab- 
lished by  lav/ ;  all  militia  officers  from  the  rank  of  Colonel  inclusive  ;  the  Treasurer, 
Auditor  of  Public  Accounts,  Register  of  the  Land-Office,  and  Attorney- General. 
The  Legislature  may  by  law  vest  the  appointment  of  all  other  officers  of  the  Com- 
monwealth, whose  appointments  are  not  laerein  otherwise  provided  for,  in  the  Gover- 
nor, with  the  advice  and  consent  of  the  Senate,  or  in  the  Courts  of  Law. 

Sec.  10.  The  Governor  shall  have  power  to  fill  up  all  vacancies  that  may  happen 
during  the  recess  of  the  Senate,  by  granting  commissions,  which  shall  expire  at  the 
end  of  the  next  session  of  that  body. 

Sec.  11.  The  Governor  shall  have  power  to  require  in  writing,  the  opinions  of  the 
Lieutenant-Governor,  and  of  the  Attorney- General,  upon  all  matters  appertaining  to 
the  duties  of  his  office. 

Sec.  12.  No  person,  whose  tenure  of  office  depends  on  the  pleasure  of  the  Gover- 
nor, shall  be  removed  from  office  without  the  advice  and  consent  of  the  Senate  to 
such  removal.  But  the  Governor  shall  have  power,  at  any  time,  to  suspend  such 
officer,  and  appoint  another  to  discharge  the  duties  of  his  office,  until  the  next  session 
of  the  Senate,  and  until  their  advice  and  consent  to  such  removal  shall  be  ascertained 
and  expressed. 

Mr.  Gordon  of  Albemarle,  presented  a  petition  from  citizens  of  that  county,  on  the 
subject  of  freedom  of  religion. 

The  petition  was  received,  and  without  reading,  referred  to  the  Committee  on  the 
Legislative  Department. 

Mr.  Morgan  said  he  was  a  member  of  the  Committee  which  had  been  so  unfortu- 
nate as  not  to  agree  upon  all  the  propositions,  properly  referred  to  them,  under  the 
Executive  Department  of  the  Government,  and  like  the  gentleman  from  Frederick 
(Mr.  Powell)  he  would  ask  leave  to  submit  for  the  consideration  of  the  Convention, 
several  resolutions  on  the  subject  of  that  Department,  which  he  wished  read  and  laid 
on  the  table. 

Permission  having  been  granted,  Mr.  Morgan  thereupon  offered  the  following,  which 
were  read,  laid  upon  the  table,  and  ordered  to  be  printed  : 

The  Executive  power  shall  be  vested  in  a  Governor  and  Lieutenant-Governor,  to 
assist  in  the  administration  of  the  affiiirs  of  Government,  when  required  by  the  Go- 
Yernor;  and  who  shall  act  as  Governor  in  case  of  the  death,  resignation,  or  removal  of 
the  Governor  from  office,  until  another  be  appointed  ;  and  in  case  of  impeachment, 
temporary  incapacity  of  any  kind,  or  absence  of  the  Governor  from  the  seat  of  Go- 
vernment, until  his  restoration  or  return.  And  if  at  any  time  there  should  be  no 
acting  Governor,  and  the  Lieutenant-Governor  shall  be  impeached,  or  from  any 
other  cause  not  acting,  the  Executive  authority  shall  devolve  on,  and  be  exercised  by, 
some  person  appointed  by  law  for  that  purpose. 

The  Governor  and  Lieutenant-Governor  shall  be  annually  appointed  by  joint  ballot 
of  the  Senate  and  House  of  Delegates,  and  their  terms  of  office  shall  end  on  the  last 
day  of  December  of  every  year;  but  no  person  shall  be  ehgible  to  the  office  of  Go- 
vernor for  more  than  three  years  at  any  one  time,  nor  again,  until  after  he  shall  have 
been  out  of  that  office  four  years ;  and  in  hke  manner  after  the  end  of  every  three 
years  of  service. 

The  Governor  shall  exercise  the  Executive  power  of  the  Government,  according 
to  the  laws  of  the  Commonwealth,  and  see  that  they  shall  be  faithfully  executed. 
He  may,  at  his  own  discretion,  and  shall,  on  application  of  a  majority  of  the  Senate 
or  House  of  Delegates,  convene  the  General  Assembly :  And  he  shall  have  power 
to  grant  reprieves  and  pardons,  except  where  the  prosecution  shall  have  been  carried 
on  by  the  House  of  Delegates,  or  the  law  shall  otherwise  particularly  direct;  in 
which  cases,  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  alone  have  and  exercise  the  power  of 
granting  them;  but  no  pardon  shall  be  granted  in  any  case,  until  after  judgment  ox 
conviction. 

And  then  the  Convention  adjourned,  till  to-morrow,  two  o'clock. 


36 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


WEDNESDAY,  October  21,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  two  o'clock,  and  its  sitting  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the 
Rev.  Mr.  Armstrong. 

Mr.  Marshall,  from  the  Committee  on  the  Judicial  Department  of  Government, 
then  rose  and  said,  that  although  it  was  not  probable  the  Convention  would  take  up 
any  one  of  the  reports  of  the  Select  Committees  which  had  been  appointed,  until  the 
reports  of  all  those  Committees  should  have  been  received,  yet,  with  a  view  to  put  the 
reports  which  liad  been  rendered  in  a  way  to  be  acted  upon  by  the  Convention,  if 
such  should  be  its  pleasure,  he  moved  that  the  report  made  by  the  Committee  on  the 
Judicial  Department,  be  referred  to  a  Committee  of  the  Whole  Convention,  and  be 
made  the  Order  of  the  Day  for  to-morrow. 

Mr.  Upshur  of  Accomack,  said,  that  he  had  understood  a  wish  to  be  entertained  by 
some  members  of  the  House,  that -a  smialler  Committee  than  a  Committee  of  the 
Whole,  should  be  raised  for  the  purpose  of  receiving  and  digesting  the  reports  of  the 
Select  Committees,  and  laying  the  whole  before  the  Convention  to  receive  its  action 
thereon.  Should  such  a  course  be  adopted  after  the  report  of  the  Judicial  Committee 
had  gone  to  a  Committee  of  the  Whole,  it  would  have  again  to  be  withdrawn  from 
their  hands  and  put  with  the  rest  under  the  care  of  tlie  Sub-Committee.  He  would, 
therefore,  very  respectfully  suggest  to  the  member  from  Richmond,  whether  it  would 
not  be  expedient  to  withdraw  for  the  present  the  motion  which  he  had  made.  Mr. 
U.  said  that  he  was  the  rather  induced  to  this  course,  by  observing  that  the  Chairman 
of  the  Committee  on  the  Executive  (Mr.  Giles)  was  not  in  his  place,  and  he  knew 
that  it  was  not  the  Vv^ish  of  that  Committee,  that  their  resolution  should  take  the 
course  now  proposed. 

Prlr.  Marshall  said,  that  he  was  by  no  means  solicitous  that  the  motion  he  had  made 
should  be  adopted  :  his  only  object  had  been  to  put  business  in  such  a  train,  that  it 
might  be  taken  up  and  acted  upon  whenever  the  House  should  wish  to  consider  it. 
The  reference  of  the  report  to  a  Committee  of  the  Whole,  implied  no  sort  of  neces- 
sity that  the  report  should  be  immediately  acted  upon.  As  to  the  suggestion  of  the 
gentleman  from  Accomack,  (Mr.  Upshur)  if  the  House  should  agree  to  refer  all  the 
reports  to  a  Select  Committee  before  the  Committee  of  the  V/hole  should  have  per- 
fected its  action  on  the  particular  report  Vvdiich  was  the  subject  of  his  motion  ;  all  that 
would  have  to  be  done,  would  be  to  discharge  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  from  the 
further  consideration  of  it :  the  motion  he  had  made,. would  not  be  at  all  in  the  way  of 
such  a  course.  It  seemed  to  him  very  possible,  and  extremely  probable,  that  the  House 
would  not  refer  the  respective  reports  to  a  Select  Committee,  until  they  should  have 
received  some  report  from  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  :  nevertheless,  he  was  en- 
tirely willing  to  withdraw  his  motion,  if  the  gentleman  insisted  upon  it. 

Mr.  Doddridge  of  Brooke,  observed  that  if  the  suggestion  of  the  gentleman  from 
Accomack,  (Mr.  Upshur)  had  been  occasioned  by  any  thing  that  had  fallen  from  him, 
(Mr.  D.)  the  gentleman  had  certainly  misunderstood  him.  The  course  he  had  desired 
to  see  pursued,  was  that  each  report  should  be  referred  to  a  separate  Committee  of  this 
House,  and  after  all  the  reports  should  then  have  been  considered  and  fully  discussed 
in  Committee  of  the  Whole,  they  be  finally  referred  to  one  general  Committee,  wliich 
might  properly  be  called  a  Copying  Committee,  who  should  transcribe  and  report  the 
whole  to  the  Convention. 

Mr.  Upshur,  after  a  few  words  of  explanation,  withdrew  the  suggestion  he  had  made, 
and  the  question  having  been  taken  on  the  motion  of  Mr.  Marshall,  it  was  decided  in 
the  affirmative,  and  the  report  of  the  Judicial  Committee  was  accordingly  referred  to 
a  Committee  of  the  Whole  Convention,  and  made  the  Order  of  the  Day  for  to-mor? 
row. 

Mr.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  now  moved  the  following  resolution: 
.  Resolved,  That  it  be  a  standing  order  of  the  Convention,  that  the  Convention  shall 
every  day  resolve  itself  into  a  Committee  of  the  Whole  Convention,  to  consider  the 
existing  Constitution  of  the  Commonwealth,  and  such  propositions  for  amendment  or 
alteration  thereof,  as  shall  be  referred  to  or  made  in  the  said  Committee. 

Mr.  Doddridge  moved  to  lay  the  resolution  upon  the  table,  suggesting,  as  a  reason, 
that  its  adoption  would  involve  the  Convention  in  difficulty.  One  of  the  rules  they 
hid  adopleJ  fir  the  r  pr  ceed'ng,  required  that  the  Order  of  the  Day  should  be  called 
at  twelve  o'clock.  If  the  resolution  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  should  take 
effect,  the  Convention  would  have  to  meet  to-morrow  at  twelve  o'clock,  and  take  up 
the  report  of  the  Judiciar}^  Committee  at  once  :  but  he  did  not  suppose  it  to  be  the 
wish  of  any  gentlenian  to  take  up  that,  or  any  other  of  the  reports,  until  the  Legis- 
lative Committee  should  have  reported.  The  course  proposed  would  cut  short  the 
sittings  of  that  Committee,  which  he  was  happy  to  say  had  now  drawn  so  far  toward  a 
close,  that  some  glimpses  of  the  morning  light  could  be  perceived,  and  a  hope  was 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


3t 


entertained  that  if  they  were  allowed,  as  at  present,  to  sit  till  two  o'clock,  they  might, 
perhaps,  finish  their  discussions  to-morrow. 

A  debate  on  a  question  of  order  now  arose,  in  which  Messrs.  Stanard,  Doddridge, 
P.  P.  Barbour,  Mercer,  Leigh,  M'Coy  and  Johnson  took  part. 

It  was  affirmed  on  the  one  hand,  that  nothing  would  be  gained  by  laying  the  reso- 
lution of  Mr.  Leigh  on  the  table,  because  the  report  of  the  Judicial  Committee,  hav- 
ing been  referred  to  a  particular  Committee  of  the  Whole,  and  made  the  Order  of  the 
Day  for  to-morrow,  the  Convention  would  still  have  to  meet,  go  into  Committee  of  the 
Whole,  and  take  up  the  report,  unless  the  order  were  postponed  :  and  a  general  order, 
if  necessary,  might  as  well  be  postponed  as  a  specified  one,  though  indeed,  the  gene- 
ral standing  order  would  not  involve  any  necessity  of  postponement.  If  the  resolu- 
tion siiould  be  adopted,  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  would  be  at  liberty  to  take  up, 
at  its  own  election,  either  one  of  the  reports  referred  to  it;  comparing  each  with  the 
corresponding  portion  of  the  existing  Constitution.  It  might  pass,  at  will,  from  one 
of  these  reports  to  the  other,  without  tlie  ceremony  of  rising,  reporting,  and  again 
sitting,  for  that  purpose.  It  might  sit  on  any  day,  without  being  confined,  as  must 
otherwise  be  the  case,  to  a  particular  day  specified :  and  its  powers  in  this  respect 
were  illustrated  by  reference  to  the  practice,  as  well  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  as  of 
the  House  of  Representatives  of  the  United  States. 

It  was  insisted,  on  the  other  hand,  that  there  was  no  rule  which  now  bound  the 
Convention,  to  make  the  consideration  of  a  subject  referred  to  a  Committee  of  the 
Whole,  the  Order  of  the  Day,  for  any  particular  day.  That  the  Committee  of  the 
Whole  existed  already,  and  a  subject  had  been  referred  to  it :  Vvhen  that  Committee 
met,  it  might  take  up  any  subject  whatever,  which  might  have  been  referred  to  a 
Committee  of  the  Whole  :  in  this  Convention  as  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  there 
existed  but  one  Committee  of  the  Whole  ;  and  ail  subjects  referred  in  that  form,  be- 
longed to  it,  as  of  course,  and  might  be  taken  up  in  such  order  as  tJie  Committee  it- 
self should  choose.  There  was  no  need  of  referring  to  it  the  existing  Constitution, 
because  a  comparison  of  the  proposed  amendments  with  that  which  they  proposed  to 
amend,  was  necessarily  involved  in  the  discussion  of  such  amendments ;  nor  was  it 
at  all  desirable,  that  the  Constitution  should  go  to  such  Committee,  and  there  be  taken 
up,  and  considered  by  sections,  as  though  it  were  a  reported  bill.  When  an  amend- 
ment to  a  law  was  referred,  either  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  or  in  Congress,  to  a 
Committee  of  the  Whole,  it  was  never  the  usage  to  refer  to  that  Committee  the  origi- 
nal law  also. 

The  question  being  at  length  taken  on  tlie  motion  of  Mr.  Doddridge  to  lay  Mr. 
Leigh's  resolution  on  the  table,  it  was  decided  in  the  affirmative — Ayes  40 — Noes  37. 
So  the  resolution  was  laid  upon  the  table  accordingly. 

Mr.  Nicliolas,  who  had  been  in  a  minority  of  the  Committee  on  the  Executive,  in 
relation  to  some  of  the  features  of  the  report  of  that  Committee,  particularly  that  part 
of  it  which  related  to  tlie  abolition  -of  the  Executive  Council,  asked  and  obtained 
leave  to  lay  the  following  resolutions  on  the  table,  and  to  have  them  printed,  viz : 

Resohicd,  That  the  ninth  and  tenth  sections  of  the  present  Constitution  be  retained, 
and  that  the  eleventh  be  substituted  by  the  following  resolution : 

A  Privy  Council,  or  Council  of  State,  consisting  of  four  members,  shall  be  chosen 
by  joint  ballot  of  both  Houses  of  Assembly,  eitlier  from  their  own  members,  or  the 
people  at  large,  to  assist  in  the  administration  of  Government.  They  shall  annually 
choose  out  of  their  own  members,  a  Lieutenant-Governor,  who,  in  case  of  the  death, 
inability,  or  necessary  absence  of  the  Governor  from  the  Government,  shall  act  as 
Governor.  The  Governor  shall  be  the  President  of  the  Council,  and  shall  in  all  cases 
of  division,  have  the  casting  vote.  Two  members,  with  the  Governor  or  Lieutenant- 
Governor,  as  the  case  may  be,  shall  be  sufficient  to  act,  and  their  advice  and  proceed- 
ings shall  be  entered  of  record,  and  signed  by  the  members  present  (to  any  part 
whereof,  any  member  may  enter  his  dissent)  to  be  laid  before  the  General  Assembly, 
when  called  for  by  them.  The  members  of  the  Council  shall  be  elected  by  joint  bal- 
lot of  both  Houses  of  the  General  Assembly,  for  four  years.  At  the  first  election, 
the  two  Houses  shall,  by  joint  resolution,  divide  the  persons  elected  into  two  classes: 
The  seats  of  tlv3  Councillors  of  the  first  class,  shall  be  vacated  at  the  expiration  of  the 
second  year;  of  the  second  class,  at  the  expiration  of  the  fourth  year;  so  that  one 
half  may  be  chosen  every  second  year ;  and  if  vacancies  happen  by  resignation,  or 
otherwise,  they  shall  be  filled  by  joint  ballot  of  the  two  Houses  of  the  General  As- 
sembly. An  adequate  but  moderate  salary,  shall  be  settled  on  them,  during  their  con- 
tinuance in  office,  and  they  shall  be  incapable  during  that  time,  of  sitting  in  either 
House  of  Assembly. 

In  consequence  of  the  failure  of  Mr.  Leigh's  resolution,  the  order  which  directed 
the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  to  consider  the  report  from  the  Judicial  Committee  to- 
viorrow,  was,  on  motion  of  Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour,  re-considered,  and  altered  to  Monday 
next ;  .whereupon,  on  motion  of  Mr.  Powell,  the  Convention  adjouined  to  meet  to- 
morrow, at  two  o'clock. 


38 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


THURSDAY,  October  22,  1829.  , 

The  Convention  met  at  two  o'clock,  and  its  sitting  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the 
Rev.  Mr.  Armstrong,  of  the  Presbyterian  Church. 

Mr.  Giles  moved,  that  the  report  from  the  Committee  on  the  Executive,  be  now 
taken  up  ;  which  motiqn  being  agreed  to,  he  then  moved  that  the  report  be  referred 
to  a  Committee  of  the  Whole. 

Mr.  Stanard  susrgested  to  him  the  propriety  of  forbearing  his  motion  till  the  House 
should  have  come^to  some  decision  upon  the  resolution  offered  yesterday,  by  the  gen- 
tleman from  Chesterfield,  (Mr.  Leigh,)  and  now  lying  upon  the  table  :  the  Conven- 
tion had  not  yet  determined  whether  it  would  have  a  Committee  of  the  Whole,  analo- 
o-ous  in  its  duties  and  powers,  to  a  Committee  of  the  Whole,  in  the  House  of  Dele- 
gates. If  the  motion  should  be  pressed  at  this  time,  the  effect  would  be,  that  the  re- 
port would  go  to  a  distinct  Committee  of  the  Whole,  from  that  to  which  had  been  re- 
ferred the  report  from  the  Judicial  Committee  :  for,  as  there  has  been  separate  orders, 
there  would,  of  course,  be  distinct  Committees.  But  if  the  Convention  should  agree 
to  adopt  the  resolution  upon  its  table,  the  order  referring  each  report  to  a  distinct  Com- 
mittee of  the  Whole,  would  have  to  be  rescinded. 

Mr.  Giles  observed,  in  reply,  that  not  having  been  present  yesterday,  he  was  not  ap- 
prised that  any  difficulty  would  arise  from  the  motion  he  had  made,  but  seeing  that 
some  embarrassment  was  apprehended,  he  would,  with  great  pleasure,  withdraw  the 
motion  ;  and  he  withdrew  it  accordingly. 

Mr.  Powell  said,  that  although  he  did  not  regard  it  as  at  all  important  that  the  report 
should  be  referred  at  this  time,  he  did  not  perceive  the  same  difhculty  as  had  presented 
itself  to  the  member  from  Spottsylvania,  (Mr.  Stanard.)  The  report  might,  certainly, 
be  referred  to  the  same  Committee  of  the  Whole  to  which  had  been  referred  the  report 
from  the  Judicial  Committee  ;  and  in  like  manner,  the  reports  from  all  the  Select  Com- 
mittees, might  be  referred  to  one  and  the  same  Committee  of  the  Whole  ;  who  would 
then  have  the  whole  before  them  at  once.  He  saw,  he  said,  the  gentleman  from 
Orange,  before  him  (Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour,)  shake  his  head,  and  he  was  well  aware  that 
he  had  far  less  experience  in  Legislative  proceedings  than  that  gentleman  ;  but  un- 
less he  was  greatly  deceived,  indeed,  the  covirse  he  had  indicated  was  frequently  pur- 
sued in  the  House  of  Representatives  of  the  United  States. 

Mr.  Barbour  replied,  that  the  gentleman  from  Frederick  (Mr.  Powell)  was  certainly 
correct,  when  he  stated  that  several  analogous  subjects  were  often  referred  to  the 
same  Committee  of  the  Whole  ;  but  then  those  subjects  were  not  all  held  to  be  be- 
fore the  Committee  at  one  and  the  same  time  ;  but  were  taken  up  consecutively,  and 
each  considered  and  discussed  by  itself,  and  as  distinct  from  the  others. 

Mr.  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  from  the  Committee  on  the  Bill  of  Rights,  made  the 
following  report  in  part,  which,  on  his  motion,  vvas  laid  upon  the  table  and  ordered  to 
be  printed. 

The  Committee  to  wliom  was  referred  the  Bill  or  Declaration  of  Riglits,  and  all 
such  parts  of  the  present  Constitution  as  are  not  referred  to  the  Committees  on  the 
Legislative,  Executive,  and  Judicial  Departments  of  the  Government,  have,  according 
to  order,  had  the  subjects  to  them  referred,  under  their  consideration,  and  have  further, 
in  part  performance  of  the  duties  devolved  on  them,  agreed  upon  the  following  resolu- 
tions : 

1.  Resolved,  as  the  ojnnion  of  this  Committee,  That  the  Constitution  of  this  State 
ought  to  be  so  amended,  as  to  provide  a  mode  in  which  future  amendments  shall  be 
made  therein. 

2.  Resolved,  That  the  first  and  second  sections  of  the  present  Constitution,  ought  to 
be  stricken  out,  and  that  an  introductory  clause,  adapted  to  the  amended  Constitution, 
be  substituted  in  lieu  thereof. 

3.  Resolved,  That  the  twelfth,  twenty-first,  and  twenty-second  sections  of  the  pre- 
sent Constitution,  ought  to  be  stricken  out  as  no  longer  necessary. 

4.  Resolved,  That  the  freedom  of  Speech  and  of  the  Press,  ought  to  be  held  sacred  and 
guaranteed  by  the  Constitution. 

5.  Resolved,  That  no  title  of  nobility  shall  be  created  or  granted  ;  and  no  person 
holding  any  ofRce  of  profit  or  trust  under  the  United  States,  or  under  any  King, 
Prince,  or  foreign  State,  shall  hold  any  office  under  this  State. 

C.  Resolved,  as  the  ojoinion  of  this  Committee,  That  the  Constitution  ought  to  be  so 
amended,  as  to  provide,  '■'  that  no  man  shall  be  compelled  to  frequent  or  support  any  re- 
ligious worship,  place  or  ministry,  whatsoever,  nor  shall  be  enforced,  restrained,  mo- 
lested, or  burthened  in  his  body,  or  goods,  nor  shall  otherwise  suffer  on  account  of 
his  religious  opinions  or  belief ;  but  that  all  men,  shall  be  free  to  profess,  and  by  argu- 
ment to  maintain,  their  opinions  in  matters  of  religion  ;  and  that  the  same  shall  in  no 
wise,  duninish,  enlarge,  or  affect  their  civil  capacities." 

On  motion  of  Mr.  M'Coy,  the  House  then  adjourned. 


DEBATES 


OF    THE  CO^'TEXTIOX. 


39 


FRIDAY,  October  23,  1529. 

The  Convention  met  at  two  o'clock,  and  Tvas  opened  with  prarer  tv  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Parks,  of  the  3Iethodist  Church. 

Mr.  Madison  from  the  Committee  on  the  Judicial  Department,  asked  and  obtained 
leave,  that  that  Committee  might  sit  for  the  discharge  of  its  duties  dxiring  the  sittings 
of  the  Convention. 

3Ir.  Taylor  of  Norfolk,  a  member  of  the  Committee  on  the  Bill  of  Rights,  and  other 
matters  not  referred  to  the  previous  Committees,  asked  and  obtained  leave  to  lay  upon 
the  table  the  following  propositions,  which  were  read  and  ordered  to  be  printed  : 

Resolved  Ist.  That  the  elective  franchise  should  be  uniform:  so  that,  throughout  the 
State,  similar  qualifications  should  confer  a  similar  right  of  sufirage. 

Resolved  2d,  That,  among  those  entitled  by  the  Constitution  to  exercise  the  elec- 
tive franchise,  there  should  be  entire  equality  of  suffrage :  so  that,  in  all  elections,  the 
suffrage  of  one  qualified  voter  should  avail  as  much  as  that  of  another  qualified  voter, 
whatever  may  be  the  disparity  of  their  respective  fortunes. 

Reso'red  3d,  That  equal  numbers  of  qualified  voters  are  entitled  to  equal  represen- 
taUon  throughout  the  State. 

Resolved  4th,  That  as  individual  suffrage  should  be  equal,  without  respect  to  the  dis- 
parity of  individual  fortune,  so  an  equal  number  of  qualified  voters  are  entitled  to  equal 
representation,  witliout  regard  to  the  disparity  of  their  aggregate  fortunes. 

Resolved  otli.  That  in  all  pecuniary  contributions  to  the  pubhc  service,  regard  should 
be  had  to  the  abihty  of  individuals  to  contribute ;  and  as  this  ability  to  pay,  from  dis- 
parity of  fortune  is  unequal,  it  would  be  imjust  and  oppressive- to  require  each  citizen  to 
pay  an  equal  amount  of  public  taxes. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Summers,  the  Convention  then  adjourned.  - 


SATURDAY,  October  24,  1529. 

The  Convention  met  at  two  o'clock,  and  its  sitting  bavins'  been  opened  with  prayer 
by  the  Rev.  Mr.  Parks,  of  the  Methodist  Church, 

Mr.  Madison,  from  the  Committee  on  the  Legislative  Department  of  the  Govern- 
ment, made  the  following  report : 

The  Comixuttee  appointed  on  the  Legislative  Department  of  the  Government,  have, 
according  to  order,  had  under  consideration  the  subjects  referred  to  them,  and  have 
agreed  to  the  following 

REPORT.  •      .  -  ■ 

1.  Resolved.  That  in  the  apportionment  of  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates, 
regard  should  be  had  to  the  wlfite  population  excliisively. 

2.  Resolved,  That  a  Census  of  the  population  of  the  State,  for  the  purpose  of  ap- 
portioning the  representation,  should  be  taken  in  the  year  1531,  the  year  1545,  and 
thereafter  at  least  once  in  every  twenty  years. 

3.  Resolved,  That  the  right  of  suffrage  shall  continue  to  be  exercised  by  all  who  now 
enjoy  it  under  the  existing  Constitution :  Provided.  That  no  person  shall  vote  bv  vir- 
tue of  his  freehold  only,  unless  the  same  shall  be  assessed  to  the  value  of  at  least 
$  for  the  payment  of  taxes,  if  such  assessment  be  required  by  law  :  And  shall 
be  extended  :  first,  to  every  free  white  male  citizen  of  the  Commonwealth  resident 
therein,  above  the  age  of  twenty-one  years,  who  owns,  and  has  possessed  for  six 
months,  or  who  has  acquired  by  marriage,  descent,  or  devise,  a  fireehold  estate,  as- 
sessed to  the  value  of  not  less  than  "  doUars  for  tlie  payment  of  taxes,  if  such 
assessment  shall  be  required  by  law ;  second,  or  who  shall  owiia  a  vested  estate  in  fee, 
in  remainder,  or  reversion,  in  land,  the  assessed  value  of  which  shall  be  dollars  ; 
third,  or  who  shall  own  and  have  possessed"  a  leasehold  estate  with  the  evidence  of 
title  recorded,  of  a  term  originally  not  less  than  five  years,  and  one  of  which  shall  be 
unexpired,  of  the  annual  value,  or  rent  of  dollars ;  fourth,  or  who  for  twelve 
months  next  preceding,  has  been  a  house-keeper  and  head  of  a  family  within  the 
county,  city,  borough  or  election  district,  where  he  may  offer  to  vote,  and  who  shall 
have  been  assessed  viith  a  part  of  the  revenue  of  the  Commonwealth  within  the  pre- 
ced'ng  year,  and  actually  paid  the  same :  Provided,  nevertheless,  that  the  rio-ht  of 
suffrage  shall  not  be  exercised  bv  any  person  of  unsound  mind,  or  who  shall  be  a 
pauper,  or  a  non-commissioned  officer,  soldier,  sailor  or  maiine.  in  the  service  of  the 
I  nited  States,  nor  by  any  person  convicted  of  any  infamous  offence  ;  nor  bv  citizens 
born  without  the  Commonwealth,  unless  they  shall  have  resided  therein  for  five 


40 


DEBATES    OF   TH2  CONVENTION. 


years  immediately  preceding  the  election  at  which  they  shall  offer  to  vote,  and  two 
years  preceding  the  said  election,  in  the  county,  city,  borough  or  election  district, 
where  they  shall  offer  to  vote,  (the  mode  of  proving  such  previous  residence,  when 
disputed,  to  be  prescribed  by  law,)  and  shall  possess,  moreover,  some  one  or  more  of 
the  qualitications  above  enumerated. 

4.  Resolved,  That  the  number  of  members  in  the  Senate  of  this  State  ought  to  be 
neither  increased  nor  diminished,  nor  the  classification  of  its  members  changed, 

5.  Resolved,  That  the  number  of  members  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  ouo-ht  to  be 
reduced,  so  that  the  same  be  not  less  than  one  hundred  and  twenty,  nor  rnore  than 
one  hundred  and  fifty. 

(j.  Resolved,  Tliat  no-  person  ought  to  be  elected  a  member  of  the  Senate  of  this 
State,  who  is  not  at  least  thirty  years  of  age. 

7.  Resolved,  That  ho  person  ought  to  be  elected  a  member  of  the  House  of  Dele- 
gates of  this  State,  who  is  not  at  least  twentj'-five  years  of  age. 

8.  Resolved,  Tliat  it  ought  to  be  provided,  that  in  all  elections  for  members  of  either  * 
branch  of  the  General  Assembly,  and  in  the  election  of  all  officers  which  may  be  re- 
quired to  be  made  by  the  two  Houses  of  Assembly,  jointly,  or  in  either  separately, 
with  the  exception  of  the  appointment  of  their  own  officers,  the  votes  should  be  given 
openly,  or  viva  voce,  and  not  by  ballot. 

9.  Resolved,  That  no  man  sliall  be  compelled  to  frequent  or  support  any  religious 
worship,  place,  or  ministry  whatsoever;  nor  shall  be  enforced,  restrained,  molestedj 
or  burtliened  in  his  body  or  goods,  nor  shall  otherwise  suffer  on  account  of  his  reli- 
gious opinions  or  l^elief ;  but  that  all  men  shall  be  free  to  profess,  and  by  argument  to 
maintain,  their  opinions  in  matters  of  religion,  and  that  the  same  shall  in  no  wise  di- 
minish, enlarge,  or  affect  their  civil  capacities. 

That  the  Legislature  shall  have  no  poAver  to  prescribe  any  religious  test  whatever, 
nor  to  establish  b}^  law  any  subordination  or  preference  between  different  sects  or  de- 
nominations, nor  confer  any  peculiar  privileges  or  advantages  on  any  one  sect  or  de- 
nomination, over  others;  nor  pass  any  law,  requiring  or  authorising  any  religious  so- 
ciety, or  the  people  of  any  district  within  this  Commonwealth,  to  levy  on  themselves 
or  others,  any  tax  for  the  erection  or  repair  of  any  house  for  public  worship,  or  tlie 
support  of  any  church  or  ministry,  but  tiiat  it  be  left  free  to  every  person  to  select 
whom  he  pleases  as  his  religious  instructor,  and  to  make  for  his  support,  such  private 
contract  as  he  pleases  :  Provided,  hoAvever,  that  the  foregoing  clauses  shall  not  be  so 
construed,  as  to  permit  any  minister  of  the  gospel,  or  priest  of  any  denomination,  to 
be  eligible  to  either  House  of  the  General  Assembly. 

10.  Resolved,  That  no  bill  of  attainder,  or  ex-jwst  facto  law,  or  law  impairing  the 
obligation  of  contracts,  ought  to  be  passed. 

1.1 .  Resolved,  That  private  property  ought  not  to  be  taken  for  public  uses  without 
just  compensation. 

12.  Resolved,  That  the  memb3rs  of  the  Legislature  shall  receive  for  their  services, 
a  compensation,  to  be  ascertained  by  law,  and  paid  out  of  the  public  Treasury ; 
but  no  law  increasing  the  compensation  of  members  of  the  Legislature  shall  take 
effect  until  the  end  of  the  next  annual  session  after  the  said  law  may  have  been 
enacted. 

13.  Resolved,  That  no  Senator  or  Delegate  shall,  during  the  term  for  Vv'hich  he 
shall  have  been  elected,  be  appointed  to  any  civil  office  of  profit  under  this  State, 
which  shall  have  been  created,  or  the  emoluments  of  which  shall  have  been  in- 
creased during  such  term,  except  such  ofiices  as  may  be  filled  by  elections  by  the 
people. 

Mr.  Madison  moved  thot  tlie  report  be  printed,  and  referred  to  the  same  Committee 
of  the  Whole,  to  which  liad  been  referred  the  report  from  the  Committee  on  the  Ju- 
dicial Department. 

Mr.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  requested  the  venerable  mover  to  vdthdraw  his  motion 
for  the  present,  until  the  Convention  should  have  taken  up,  and  decided  upon,  a  reso- 
lution now  lying  on  its  table  ;  and  which,  if  adopted,  would  supersede  the  necessity 
of  such  a  motion  as  had  just  been  m.ade. 

Mr.  Madison  said,  he  v.'ould  A'ery  readily  consent  to  V\^ithdraw  the  motion,  v/hich  he 
had  made  only  in  pursuance  of  the  course  taken  with  the  other  report ;  and  the  motion 
was  thereupon  withdraAvn. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Leigli,  the  Convention  then  took  up  the  following  resolution, 
moved  by  him  on  Thursday  last : 

"  Resolved,  That  it  be  a  &ta.nding  order  of  the  Convention,  that  the  Convention 
shall  every  day  resolve  itself  into  a  Committee  of  the  Whole  Convention,  to  consider 
the  .existing  Constitution  of  the  Commonwealth,  and  such  propositions  for  amend- 
ment or  alteration  thereof,  as  shall  be  referred  to  or  made  in  said  Committee." 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  tliat  when  this  resolution  had  been  offered,  it  had  been  encountered 
by  objections  from  various  quarters  of  the  House,  all  of  which,  he  hoped,  further  re- 
flection had  since  removed.^  The  whole  purpose  of  the  resolution  was,  to  conform 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONTENTIO!?, 


41 


tlie  practice  of  this  Convention,  in  relation  to  its  Committee  of  the  Whole,  to  the 
course  ptixsued  in  the  House  of  Delegates ;  and  did  he  believe  that  precisely  the  same 
object  could  be  obtained  in  any  other  -way.  he  should  not  have  the  least  objection: 
but  he  did- not  think  that  that  was  the  case.  -The  original  design,  as  proposed  by 
some  gentlemen,  was.  that  the  Convention  should  resolve  itself  into  a  Committee  of 
the  Whole,  on  the  state  of  the  Commonwealth;  and  there  take  up  and  discuss  the 
various  subjects  reported  upon  by  the  Select  Committees.  But,  said  Mr.  L.  this 
Convention  heis  not  been  charged  with  the  state  of  the  Commonwealth,  but  ooly 
with  the  revision  of  its  fimdamental  law.  The  only  duty  assigned  to  us,  is  to  con- 
sider the  existing  Constitution,  and  to  propose  therein  such  amendments  as  we  may 
deem  requisite  and  proper  :  for  that  reason,  I  suggest  that  instead  of  raising  a  Com- 
mittee of  the  Whole,  on  the  state  of  the  Commonwealth,  our's  shall  be  a  Committee 
of  the  Whole  on  the  business  before  us.  The  cotirse  indicated  by  the  resolution  must 
be  familiar  to  all  who  have  served  in  the  Hoiase  of  Delegates.  I  do  not  say  that 
the  practice  there  pursued,  is  the  best  that  exists  in^the  world;  but  it  is  the  course 
best  known  to  us.  -  - — 

Messrs.  ZNIercer  and  Doddridge  stated,  that  having  had  conversation  with  _the  gen- 
tleman, from  Chesterfield,  in  relation  to  the  object  and  bearing  of  his  resolution,  the 
-  objections  they  had  formerly  entertained  were  removed,  and  they  were  now  fully  sa- 
tisfied that  it  should  be  adopted.  ,    "  - 

The  question  being  thereupon  taken,  the  resolution  was  adopted  nem.  cgji. 
"Mr.  Madison  now  moved  the  reference  of  the  report  from  theXegislative  Coinmit- 
tee,  to  a  Committee  of  the  Whole  ;  and  it  was  so  referred. 

3Ir.  Giles  made  a  similar  motion,  "v\T.th  respect  to  the  report  of  the  Committee  firoA 
the  Executive  Department,  which  was  also  agr.eed  to. . 

Mr.  ^vlarshall  observed.- that  it  was  obviously  convenient,  that  all  the  reports  firom 
the  Select  Committees,  shotild  be  before  the  same  Committee  of  the  Whole ;  and  as 
he  beheved,  though  he  was  not  entirely  sure,  that  the  repOTt  of  the  Committee  on 
the  Judicial  Department,  had  been  referred  to  a  particular  Committee  of  the  Whole, 
distinct  from  that  recognized  in  the  resolution  this  day  adopted,  he  moved,  if  that 
were  the  case,  that  tiie  partiTiular  Committee  of  the  Whole,  to  which  the  report  had 
gone,  might  be  discharged  from  the  farther  consideration'  of  it,  and  that  the  report 
might  take  the  same  direction,  as  had  been  given  to  those  from  the  other  Select  Com- 
mittees. The  motion  prevailed,  and  the  report  from  the  Judicial  -  Comniittee  jwas- 
thereupon  referred  to  the  Committee  of  the  Whole. '  -    '  ^  . 

Mr.  Powell  moved,  that  certain  resolutions,  which  at  his  request  had  been  yesterday 
laid  upon  the  table,  and  ordered  to  be  printed,  should  now  be  referred  to  the  Commit- 
tee of  the  Whole.  '  , 

The  motion  was  agreed  to^  and  then  on  motion  of  !Mr.  Leigh,  of  Chesterfield,  a 
general  order  was  passed,  directing  that  all  reports  made  by  any  of -the  Select  Com- 
mittees, as  weR  as  all  propositions,  heretofore  moved  in- the' House,  be  referred'  to  the 
Cormnittee  of  the  Whole.        "  .     "  ~  .  " 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Stanard,  it  was  resolved,  th^  when  the  House  adjourned,  it  ad- 
journ to  meet  on  Monday  next,  at  eleven  o'clock.  A.  M. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  said,  that  he  should  have  forborne  to  submit  his  personal  views  on  the 
subjects  referred  to  the  Committee  of  the  "^^Tiole,  but  for  the  course  pursued  by  other 
gentlemen.  As  his  views  difiered  probably  from  both  of  what  might  be  called  the 
great  parties  in  the  House,  he  wotild  ask  the  attention  of  the  Convention  to  four  re- 
solutions, which  he  had  drawn  up,  and  which  he  asked  leave  to  layjipon  the  table, 
and  have  pruited,  and  referred  to  the  Connnittee  of  the  Whole.  ^  . 
2>Ir.  F.  then  read  in  his  place  the  following  resolutions  :  . 

1.  Resolved,  That  the  Senate  ought  to  be  divided  once  in  every  ^         '    years  into 

election  districts,  containing  as  nearly  as  possible,  equal  portions  of  white 
population ;  and  that  each  district  should  be  entitled  to  one  Senator,  and  Dele- 
gates; the  former  to  be  elected  by  tlie  whole  district,  and  the  latter  to  be  distributed 
amonorst,  and  elected  l)v  the  counties  composing  the  district,  as  nearly  as  possible,  in 
proportion  to  their  white  population. 

2.  Resolved.  That  the  power  of  the  Legislature  to  impose  taxes,  ought  to  be  so  li- 
mited, as  proliibit  the  imposition  on-property,  either  real  or  personal,  of  any  other 
than  an  ad  zcdorenv'  tax ;  and  that  in  apportioning  this  tax,  either  for  State  or  county 
purposes,  the  whole  visible  property  (household  furniture  and  wearing  ajjparel  ex- 
cepted) of  each  individual  in  the  conmaunity^.  ought  to  be  valued,  andlaxed  only  in 
proportion  to  its  value  :  Provided,  however,  that  no  individual,  whose  property  (with 
the  above  exception)"  does  not  exceed  in  value  dollars,  ought  to  be  subject  to 
any  propertv  tax  whatever  :  And  provided,  moreover,  that  the  Legislature  may  im- 
pose on  all  professions  and  occupations,  usually  resorted  to  as  a  means  of  support, 
such  tax  as  mav  be  deemed  reasonable. 

3.  Resolved,  That  to  prevent  any  unfair  distribution  of  the  revenue  of  the  Com- 
monwealth, the  Legislature  ou^ht  to  be  prohibited  from  making  appropriations  (ex- 

6 


42 


PEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


cept  by  votes  of  two-thirds  of  the  members  of  both  its  branches)  to  any  road  or  canal, 
until  tiiree-fifchs  of  the  amount  necessary  to  complete  such  road  or  canal,  shall  have 
been  othi;r\vise  subscribed,  and  eitlier  paid  or  secured  to  be  paid  as  the  law  may 
direct. 

4.  Resolved.  That  the  right  of  suffrage  ought  to  be  extended  to  all  free  male  white 
citizens  of  twenty-one  years  of  age  and  upwards,  who  having  been  months 
preceding  the  election,  freeholders  or  house-keepers  in  the  county  where  they  offer  to 
vote,  shall,  within  that  time,  have  been  assessed  on  property  (exclusive  of  household, 
furniture  and  wearing  apparel)  exceeding  in  value  dollars,  or  in  a  tax  other 

than  a  property  tax,  of  the  amount  of  dollars,  and  shall  have  actually  paid 

all  tlie  taxes  with  which  they  may  have  been  legally  charged,  during  the  current 
year. 

The  resolutions  were  referred  accordingly. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Doddridge,  it  was  ordered,  that  all  the  papers  referred  to  the. 
Committee  of  the  Whole,  should  be  printed  consecutively,  in  one  connected  body. 

Mr.  Clay  tor  of  Campbell,  offered  tiie  following  resolutions,  which,  on  his  motion, 
were  referred  to  tlie  Committee  of  the  Whole,  and  ordered  to  be  printed.^ 

-  1.  Resolved,  Tliat  the  right  of  suffrage,  belongs  to,  and  ought  to  be  exercised  by,  all 
free  white  male  citizens  within  this  Commonwealth,  who  have  attained  the  age  of 
twenty-one  years,  and  are  able  to  give  sufficient  evidence  of  attachment  to,  and  a 
permanent  common  interest  with,  the  community." 

2.  Resolved,  That  nativity,  or  residence  within  the  Commonwealth,  for  a  suffi- 
cient time,  and  the  payment  of  all  taxes  imposed,  and  performance  of  all  public 
duties  required  by  the  laws  of  this  Commonwealth,  ought  to  be  deemed  sufficient 
evidence. 

3.  Resolved,  therefore,  That  the  right  of  suffrage  ought  to  be  exercised  and  enjoyed 
by  all  free  white  male  citizens  of  this  Commonwealth,  who  have  attained  the  age  of 
twenty-one  years,  except,  first,  paupers ;  second,  persons  convicted  of  infamous 
crimes;  third,  persons  of  unsound  minds  ;  fourth,  persons  who  have  refused  or  failed  to 
pay  all  taxes  assessed  or  imposed  upon  them  by  law,  for  the  year  next  preceding  any 
election;  at  which  they  may  offer  to  vote;  fifth,  persons  in  tlie  military  or  navaT  ser- 

_  vice  of  the  United  States,  or  of  this  State  ;  and  sixth,  persons  not  native  born  citizens" 
of  this  Commonwealth,  who  have  not  resided  at- least  three  years  within  the  same, 
and  one  year  in  the  county,  city,  borough  or  election  district  in  which  they  offer  to 
vote,  and  been  regularly  assessed  for  taxation;  and  if  liable  to  militia,  duty,  enrolled 
in  the  militia  of  tlie  same :  Provided,  however,  that  this  last  restriction  shall  not  be 
so  construed  as  to  deprive  any  person  of  the  right  of  suffrage,  who  had  under  this 
Constitution  previously  been  qualified  to  exercise  the  same  in  any  county,  city,  bo- 
rough or  election  district,  of  tliis  State  :  And  provided,  moreover,  that  wherever  any 
question  arises  as  to  the  right  of  an  individual  to  vote,  the  onus  probandi  shall  be 
upon  the  person  claiming  the  right.     '         ,  ; 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke,  stating  that  he  was  in  a  considerable  minority  in  the  Ju- 
dicial Committee  on  the  propositions  there  adopted,  would  beg  leave  to  submit  his 
own  views  in  the  resolutions  which  had  been  rejected  by  that  Committee.  They 
were  as  follows : 

^  Resolved,  That  the  Judicial  power  shall  be  vested  in  a  Court  of  Appeals,  and  in 
such  Inferior  Courts  as  the  Legislature  shall  from  time  to  time  ordain  and  establish. 
The  jurisdiction  of  these  tribunals  sliall  be  regulated  by  law.  The  Judges  of  the  - 
Court  of  Appeals  and  of  the  Inferior  Courts  shall  hold  their  offices  during  good  be- 
haviour, or  until  removed  in  the  manner  prescribed  in  this  Ccnstitution  ;  and  shall,  at 
the  same  time,  hold  no  other  office,  appointment  or  public  trust;  and  the  acceptance 
thereof  by  either  of  them,  shall  vacate  his  Judicial  office. 

Resolved,  That  the  counties,  cities  and  boroughs  shall  be  divided  into  wards  for  the 
apportionment  of  Justices  of  the  Peace  among  the  people  ;  and  the  persons  authorized 
to  vote  for  members  of  the  General  Assembly  in  each  ward,  shall  elect  the  Justices 
of  the  Peace  therein,  who  shall  be  commissioned  to  continue  in  office  for  the  term  of 
years,  but  removeable  for  any  bribery,  corruption,  or  other  high  crime  or 
misdemeanor,  by  -  indictment  or  hifornlation,  in  any  Court  holding  jurisdiction 
thereof. 

Resolved,  That  the  Constables  shall  in  like  manner  be  elected  annually  in  said  wards. 

Resolved,  That  the  appointment  of  the  Clerks  of  the  several  courts,  and  their  tenure 
of  oflice,  shall  be  regulated  by  law. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke,  also  offered  the  following,  which  were  made  the  objects 
of  a  similar  order. 

1.  Resolved,  That  all  persons  now  by  law  possessed  of  the  right  of  suffrage,  have 
sufficient  evidence  of  permanent  common  interest  with,  and  attachment  to,  the  com- 
munity, and  have  the  right  of  suffrage. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


43 


2.  Resolved,  Tliat  all  free  white  males  of  twenty-three  years  of  age,  born  vritlain  the 
Commonwealth,  and  resident  therein,  have  suiScient  evidence  of  permanent  common 
interest  with,  and  attachment  to,  the  community,  and  have  the  xioht  of  sufirage. 

3.  Resolved.  That  every  free  white  male  of  twenty-one  years  of  age,  not  included 
in  the  two  preceding  resolutions,  who  is  now  a  resident,  or  who  may  hereafter  become 
a  resident  within  this  Commonwealth,  who  is.  desirous  of  having  the  right  of  suffrage 
in  this  Commonwealth,  shall,  in  open  court,  as  may  be  prescribed  by  law,  make  a  de- 
claration of  his  intention  to  become  a  permanent  resident  in  this  State,  and  if  such 
person  shall,  six  months  after  making  such  declaration,  solemnly  promise  to  submit  to, 
and  support  the  Government  of  this  Commonwealth,  and  if  he  shall  not  have  been 
con^-icted  of  any  liigh  crime  or  misdemeanor  atniuist  the  la-n's  of  this  Commonwealth, 
such  person  shall  be  considered  as  having  permanent  common  interest  with,  and  at- 
tachment to,  the  community,  and  shall  have  the  right  of  suffrage. 

And  then,  on  motion  of  Mr.  Doddridge,  the  Hoxise  adjotirned  until  Monday,  eleven 
o'clock. 


MONDAY,  October  20,  1S20. 

The  Convention  met  at  eleven  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  E.ev. 
Mr.  Sykes,  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

Mr.  Morgan  of  Monongaha,  submitted  the  following  resolutions,  wliich.  on  his  mo- 
tion, were  referred  to  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  Convention  : 

^•Resolved.  That  the  Legislative  power  shall  be  vested  in  the  General  Assembly  of 
Virginia,  which  shall  consist  of  a  Senate  and  House  of  Delegates.  But  no  ^linister 
of  tlie  Gospel  of  any  denomination,  or  person  holding  any  lucrative  office,  place,  or 
appointment,  shall  be  a  Senator  or  Delegate.  - 

The  Senate  shall  consist  of  thirty-two  Senators,  a  majority  of  whom,  and  no  less, 
shall  form  a  quorum,  to  do  business  ;  for  whose  electioii  the  State  shall  be  divided  from 
time  to  time  as  equally  as  may  be  accordino-.to  the  number  of  free  white  citizens,  into 
sixteen  districts;  and  at  the  first  election,  there  shall  be  two  Senators  chosen  in  each 
district :  the  Senator  having  the  greatest  number  of  votes,  tor  the  term  of  four  years  : 
tlie  other,  for  the  term  of  two  vears;  And  to  keep  up  the  succession,  every  second 
year  thereafter,  one  Senator  shaii  be  chosen  in  each  district,  for  the  term  of  four  years : 
But  no  person  shall  be  a  Senator,  who  shall  not  be  a  free  white  male  citizen -of  the 
Commonwealth;  of  the  age  of  twentj^-five  years,  and  an  actual  resident  freeholder  of 
his  district,  at  the  time  of  election.  - 

•'•  The  House  of  Delegates  shall  consist  of  not  less  than  sixty-four,  nor  more  than 
one  hundred  and  seventy-six  Deleo-ates,  who  shall  be  apportioned  among  the  people, 
and  chosen  annually,  in  such  mamrer  that  one  equal  sixteenth  part  of  the  whole  ninn- 
ber  shall  be  elected  in  each  Senatorial  District :  But  nojjerson  shall  be  a  Delegate, 
who  shall  not  be  a  free  white  citizen  of  the  age  of  twenty-one  years,  and  an  actual 
resident  of  Ms  Senatorial  District  at  tiie  time  cTf  election. 

Each  House  shall  have  power  to  appoint  its  own  officers  :  settle  its  own  rules  of 
proceeding ;  judge  the  qualifications,  and  determine  the  contested  elections  of  its  own 
members ;  issue  writs  of  election  to  supply  vacancies  occmring  during  the  sessions  • 
originate  bills,  and  adjourn  without  the  consent  of  the  other;  but  afl.  laws  shall  be 
whollv  approved  and  passed  by  both  Houses. 

"The  General  Assembly  shall  meet  once  or  oflener  in  every  year,  and  the  mem- 
bers thereof,  shall  be  exempt  from  arrest,  and  enlarged  from  hnprisonment,  in  all  cases 
except  treason,  felony,  or  perjury,  during  their  sessions,  and  for  the  term  of  twenty 
days  before  and  after :  And  no  disqualification,  prohibition  or  test,  shall  ever  be  de- 
clared, imposed  or  required  by  law,  whereby  to  change  or  alter  the  ehgibility  of  ajiy 
person  qualified  under  this  Constitution  to  be  a  Senator  or  Delegate.  But.  all  Sena- 
tors and  Delegates,  before  they  shall  enter  upon  the  discharge  of  tlieir  duties,  in  pre- 
sence of  some  person  authorised  to  administer  the  same. -shall  make  oath  or  solemn 

affirmation  in  this  form,  to  wit :  ••  I,  ,  do  declare  myself  to  be  a  citizen  of  the 

Commonwealth  of  Virginia,  owing  no  alleofiance  to  anv  foreign  power.  Prince,  or 
State ;  and  I  do  swear  (or  affirm)  that  I  sSall  be  faithful  and  true  to  the  said  Com- 
monwealth of  Virginia,  so  long  as  I  continue  a  citizen  thereof,  and  that  I  will  faith- 
fully, impartially,  and  justly,  according  to  the  best  of  my  sldll  and  judgment,  perform 
the  duties  of  my  office  (Senator  or  Delegate.)  So  help  vie  God.'' 

That  all  free  white  men  of  this  Conmionwealtli,  are  of  right,  and  forever  shall  be, 
equally  free  and  independent :  And  suffirage,  without  regard  to  birth  or  condition  of 
estate,  being  the  indefeasible  right  of  every  such  effective  man.  provmg  permanent 
conmion  interest  with,  and  attachment  to,  the  commimitv.  it  is  delared  to  belong  to, 
and,  in  the  election  of  Representatives  m  the  General  Assembly,  shall  be  exercised 


44 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


by  all  free  white  male  citizens  of  the  Commonwealth,  of  the  age  of  twenty-one  years, 
who  shall  reside  in  the  county,  city,  or  borough,  in  which  they  respectively  propose  to 
vote,  and  shall  have  so  resided  for  one  whole  year  next  before  the  time  of  election ; 
other  than  those  who  shall  have  failed,  in  this  Commonwealth,  to  pay  any  public  tax 
or  levy,  or  part  thereof,  within  either  of  the  two  years  next  preceding  the  one  in  which 
they  propose  to  vote  ;  or  paupers  ;  or  those  under  judgment  of  felony  or  other  infamous 
crime  ;  or  soldiers,  mariners,  or  marines  in  the  service  of  the  State,  or  of  the  United 
States  :  And  that  the  right  of  suftrage  may  be  exercised  only  by  persons  disposed  for 
the  prosperity  and  well-being  of  the  Commonwealth,  there  shall  be  a  tax  of  twenty -five 
cents  per  annum,  levied  on  every  free  white  man  of  the  age  of  twenty-one  years,  to 
be  collected  and  paid  into  the  public  treasury ;  and  the  Legislature  shall  annually  set 
apart  an  amount  of  the  property-tax  equal  to  the  whole  amount  of  poll-tax  so  paid  in ; 
and  these  two  sums  shall  be  annually  appropriated  and  constitute  a  principal  fund,  al- 
ways to  be  preserved  and  vested  in  profitable  stocks,  or  put  to  profitable  uses,  the  in- 
terest and  profit  whereof,  shall,  in  the  best  manner,  be  applied  every  year  to  the  educa- 
tion of  the  youth  of  Virginia." 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  he  perceived  that  it  seemed  to  be  the  understanding  of  gentlemen, 
that  imdeAhe  rule  reported  by  the  Committee  on  rules  of  order,  all  propositions  for 
amendments  to  the  Constitution,  must  be  made  in  the  Convention  itself,  before  they 
could  be  laid  before  the  Committee  of  the  Whole.^  Gentlemen,  he  saw,  were  acting 
on  such  an  understanding.  He  had  not  so  apprehended  the  meaning  of  the  rule  when 
it  was  adopted  ;  on  the  contrary,  he  had  supposed  that  members  were  at  full  liberty  to 
move  their  proposed  amendments  in  the  Committee,  without  previously  submitting 
them  to  the  Plouse.  If  this  were  not  the  just  understaning  of  the  rule,  it  ought  to 
be  known  :  and  he  now  asked  for  information. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Mennis,  the  resolution  containing  the  rule  was  read. 
Mr.  Doddridge  said,  that  his  understanding  of  the  rule  was,  that  when  the_^  Consti- 
tution in  any  of  its  parts,  or  the  Bill  of  Rights,  should  be  taken  up  in  Committee  of 
the  Whole,  it  would  then  be  in  order  for  any  gentleman  to  propose  such  amendments 
as  related  to  the  subject  under  consideration.  If  such  a  construction  were  not  adopt- 
ed, the  Convention  might  have  the  whole  political  creed  of  every  one  of  its  members 
spread  upon  its  minutes  in  the  form  of  resolutions.  The  substance  of  the  resolutions 
which  had  just  been  read,  would  have  been  properly  presented  in  Committee  of  the 
Whole  at  the  appropriate  time.  For  instance  :  the  great  subject  of  the  right  of  suf- 
frage had  been  reported  upon  by  the  Legislative  Committee,  having  been  specified  un- 
der three  disLinct  resolutions.  As  each  of  these  came  before  the  Committee,  every 
gentleman  could  propose  to  amend  it  in  such  way  as  to  him  seemed  expedient,  by  strik- 
ing out,  for  example,  the  property  qualification,  or  that  in  relation  to  freehold,  and  so  on. 
He  trusted  this  course  would  be  pursued,  as  it  was  obviously  the  most  convenient. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  that  he  had  so  understood  the  rule  :  All  that  it  forbade,  was  the  dis- 
cussion and  decision  of  any  question  of  amendment,  before  it  should  have  been  sub- 
mitted and  considered  in  Cominittee  of  the  Whole. 

Mr.  Stanard  observed,  that  the  resolution  offered  by  the  gentleman  from  Chester- 
field, (Mr.  Leigh,)  would  remove  all  diliiculty  on  this  subject.  It  includes  in  its  pro- 
visions, a  permission  for  new  propositions  being  offered  in  Committee  of  the  Whole. 
Tliis  was,  indeed,  the  very  end  and  purpose  of  that  resolution :  that  the  Committee 
of  the  Whole,  in  this  Convention,  might  have  the  same  liberty  in  this  respect,  as  be- 
longed to  a  Committee  of  the  Whole,  on  the  state  of  the  Commonwealth,  in  the 
House  of  Delegates.  He  called  for  the  reading  of  Mr.  Leigh's  resolution;  audit  was 
read  accordingly.  - 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Leigh,  the  Convention  then  proceeded  to  the  Order  of  the  Day, 
and  went  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour  in  the  Chair. 
_  The  Chairman  stated,  that  the  subjects  assigned  to  the  Committee  for  its  considera- 
tion, were  the  existing  Constitution  of  Virginia,  together  with  the  several  reports  from 
the  Select  Committees,  proposing  amendments  thereto,  and  such  other  amendments^ 
as  had  been  offered  by  individual  members  :  the  Committee  were  at  liberty  to  take  up- 
any  one  of  these  subjects,  in  such  order  as  might  be  determined  on. 

Mr.  Doddridge  observed,  that  the  report  from  the  Committee  on  the  Legislative 
Department,  would,  he  presumed,  be  generally  considered  at  first  in  order  of  impor- 
tance, among  the  reports  before  the  Committee,  ffom  the  nature  of  the  subjects  on 
which  it  treated.  But,  according  to  the  form  of  the  resolution  under  which  the  Com- 
mittee had  been  appointed,  that  Upon  the  Bill  of  Rights  had  precedence  ;  and  he  there- 
fore moved,  that  the  report  of  the  Select  Committee  on  the  Bill  of  Rights,  be  now 
taken  up. 

The  motion  was  agreed  to,  and  that  report  was  thereupon  read  at  the  Clerk's  table; 
and  the  question  being  on  concurring  with  the  Committee  in  their  report,  it  was  de- 
cided in  the  affirmative,  nem.  con. 

So  the  report  was  concurred  in  by  the  Convention. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


45 


Mr.  Powell  now  suggested,  as  a  question  of  order,  whether,  as  the  report  had  de- 
clared, that  the  Bill  of  Rights  needs  iio  amendment,  and  the  Convention  had  adopted 
that  report,  it  was  to  be  understood  as  precluding  all  additions  to  the  Bill  of  Rights  ; 
and  thereby  shutting  out  the  resolutions,  which  had,  on  Friday  last,  been  submitted 
and  laid  upon  the  table,  by  his  friend  from  Norfolk,  (Mr.  Taylor.) 

The  Chair  replied,  that,  as  the  Convention  had  just  decided,  that  the  Bill  of  Rights 
needs  no  amendment,  the  propositions  to  amend  it,  whether  by  diminution,  alteration, 
or  addition,  would  be  out  of  order. 

Mr.  Taylor  said  he  was  very  unexpectedly  called  to  address  the  Chair ;  he  had  had 
no  expectation  that  the  subject  of  the  resolutions  which  he  had  had  the  honor  to  sub- 
mit, would  come  up  in  any  shape  to-day  ;  and  so  uninformed  was  he,  as  to  the  forms 
.of  parliamentary  proceeding,  as  not  to  have  apprehended  that  the  rules  of  order  would 
lead  to  such  a  decision  as  laad  just  been  pronounced  by  the  Chair.  It  was  not  cer- 
tainly for  him  to  question  that  decision  ;  but  he  should  have  apprehended,  that  when 
the  Convention,  by  adopting  the  report  of  its  Committee,  had  decided  that  the  Bill  of 
Rights  needs  no  aviendmcnt.  it  had  not  in  effect,  said,  that  all  additions  were  inadmis- 
~  sible.  If,  however,  he  was  mistaken  in  the  apprehension,  he  felt  persuaded,  that  there 
existed  in  this  body,  a  disposition  that  would  lead  it  rather  to  consent  to  re- consider 
its  vote,  than,  by  insisting  upon  it,  to  exclude  from  consideration,  resolutions,  which, 
'whatever  might  be  their  merit,  referred  to  questions  of  the  deepest  importance.  He 
asked,  therefore,  from  the  candour  and  generosity  of  the  House,  that  they  would 
consent  to  a  re-consideration,  with  a  view  to  let  in  the  resolutions,  he  had  had  the 
honor  to  submit. 

Mr.  Johnson  said,  that  perhaps  he  had  misapprehended,  either  to  what  resolutions 
the  gentleman  referred,  or  else  their  true  character.  If  they  were  those  resolutions 
which  he  had  seen  printed  in  the  papers,  as  offered  by  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk, 
he  could  not  conceive  that  the}'^  were  at  all  excluded  from  the  consideration  of  the 
Committee,  by  its  having  adopted  the  report  in  relation  to  the  Bill  of  Rights.  Those 
resolutions  proposed  an  amendment,  not  to  the  Bill  of  Rights,  but  to  the  Constitution 
of  Virginia.  They  ^lertained,  as  he  understood  them,  to  subjects  reported  upon  by 
the  Legislative  Committee,  and  would  be  perfectly  in  order  when  the  report  of  that 
Committee  should  be  taken  up  for  consideration. 

The  Chair  observed,  that  it  had  expressed  no  opinion  as  to  the  nature  or  tendency  of 
the  resolutions,  but  had  merely  decided,  that,  if  proposed  as  an  addition  to  the  Bill  of 
■  Rights,  they  must  be  considered  technically  as  an  amendment  to  that  instrument,  and 
therefore  out  of  order,  inasmuch  as  the  House  had  said  the  Bill  of  R-ights  should  not 
be  amended. 

Mr.  Doddridge  now  moved,  that  the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee  be  taken 
up  and  considered ;  and  the  motion  was  carried — Ayes  48 — Noes  33. 

Mr.  Powell  said,  that  he  had  thought  there  was  a  subject  already  before  the  Com- 
mittee, viz:  the  question  of  re-consideration. 

The  Chair  replied,  that  no  express  motion  to  that  effect  had  been  made,  and  the 
suggestion  of  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk,  had,  as  he  understood,  been  waived  in  con- 
sequence of  the  remarks  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  he  had  certainly  so  understood  the  matter,  or  he  should  not 
have  made  his  motion :  he  trusted  the  vote  would  be  re-considered. 

Mr.  Johnson  said,  that  it  was  only  necessary  to  lay  the  report  of  the  Legislative 
Committee  on  the  table  ;  and  he  made  that  motion;  which  being  agreed  to,  the  report 
was  laid  upon  the  table  accordingly.  The  vote,  approving  the  report  of  the  Commit- 
tee on  the  Bill  of  Rights,  was  then  re-considered,  and  the  Bill  of  Rights  itself  was 
taken  up,  read  at  the  Clerk's  table,  and  afterwards  read  from  the  Chair  by  sections, 
for  amendment. 

No  amendment  being  proposed  by  any  other  member  of  the  Convention, 
On  motion  of  Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke,  the  resolutions  offered  on  Saturday  by  Mr. 
Taylor  were  read,  and  the  tliird  resolutio-n  having  been  modified  by  the  mover  so  as 
to  read  as  follows :  "  Representation  shall  be  uniform  throughout  the  State,"  the  whole 
were  taken  up  for  consideration  in  the  following  form  : 

1.  Resolved.  That  the  elective  franchise  should  be  uniform;  so  that,  throughout  the 
State,  similar  qualifications  should  confer  a  similar  right  of  suffrage. 

2.  Resolved,  That,  among  those  entitled  by  the  Constitution  to  exercise  the  elective 
franchise,  there  should  be  entire  equal itij  of  suffrage;  so  that,  in  all  elections,  the  suf- 
frage of  one  qualified  voter  should  avail  as  much  as  that  of  another  qualified  voter, 
whatever  may  be  the  disparity  of  their  respective  fortunes. 

3.  Resolved,  That  representation  shall  he  uniform  throughout  the  State. 

4.  Resolved,  That  as  individual  suffrage  should  be  equal,  without  respect  to  the  dis- 
parity of  individual  fortune,  so  an  equal  number  of  qualified  voters  are  entitled  to 
equal  representation,  without  regard  to  the  disparity  of  their  aggregate  fortunes. 

5.  Resolved,  That  in  all  pecuniary  contributions  to  the  public  service,  regard  should 
be  had  to  the  ability  of  individuals  to  contribute ;  and  as  this  ability  to  pay,  fiom  dis- 


46 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


parity  of  fortune,  is  unequal,  it  would  be  unjust  and  oppressive  to  require  each  citizen 
to  pay  an  eqiud  amount  of  public  taxes. 
Mr.  Tavlor  then  rose  and  addressed  the  Committee  in  substance,  as  follows: 
Mr.  Chairman, — As  the  resolutions  just  read  were  ofl'ered  by  me,  parlimentary  usage 
requires  that  I  should  explain  and  defend  them.  I  should  enter  on  this  duty,  under 
the  most  auspicious  circumstances,  with  great  diffidence  and  embarrassment.  The 
incidents,  which  have  just  occurred  in  the  presence  of  the  Convention,  are  by  no 
means  calculated  to  diminish  these  feelings.  I  do  not  affect  not  to  have  bestowed 
upon  these  resolutions  the  consideration  wliich  is  due  to  their  own  intrinsic  impor- 
tance ;  due  to  the  intelhgence  of  the  body  which  I  now  address  ;  due  to  the  deep  in» 
fluence  which  all  that  is  done  here  is  likely  to  have  on  the  destinies  of  our  country  : 
nor  can  I  forget  that  self-respect  forbids  me  to  lay  before  such  an  assembly  a  collec- 
tion of  crude,  undigested  thoughts.  But  I  am  taken  by  surprise,  both  as  to  the  time 
and  the  manner  in  which  this  subject  has  been  brought  up,  and  have  not,  therefore, 
marshaled  my  ideas,  humble  as  they  are,  in  a  manner  to  exliibit  them  as  I  could  have 
wished  them  to  appear.  Nevertheless,  1  shall  not  shrink  from  the  duty  which  I  con- 
ceive to  be  enjoined  upon  me  by  every  sentiment  of  manhood  and  patriotism ;  but 
shall  perform  it. to  the  best  of  my  poor  ability,  with  all  the  sincerity  which  the  deepest 
conviction  of  their  truth  can  demand,  with  the  zeal  which  its  great  importance  ought 
to  inspire  ;  and,  believe  me,  Sir,  with  all  that  deference,  not  of  manner  or  of  speech 
alone,  but  that  deep  deference  of  the  hea,rt  which  I  ought  to  feel  and  to  acknowledge, 
in  the  presence  of  such  an  assembly.  . 

Sir,  I  will  own  franklj'-,  that  I  have  scarce  any  thing  of  reasoning  or  of  argument 
to  bring  forwiird  in  support  of  these  resolutions.  This,  1  hojie,  however,  will  not 
throw  any  discredit  upon  them :  for,  I  confess  to  you,  it  is  the  very  circumstance 
which  recommended  them  to  my  adoption.  There  are  some  truths,  so  simple  and 
self-evident,  that  their  most  perfect  demonstration  is  liirnished  by  the  terms  of  the 
proposition  itself.  Axioms,  or  self-evident  truths,  carry  conviction  to  the  human  mind, 
the  moment  they  are  announced.  And,  it  may  be  safely  affirmed  of  all  propositions 
which  the  wit  of  man  can  suggest,  that  the  probability  of  their  truth,  is  in  an  inverse 
ratio,  to  the  reasoning  and  proof  required  to  sustain  them.  Just  in  proportion  as  any 
affirmation  approaches  the  axiomatic  character,  in  tliat  same  degree  is  the  range  of  ar- 
gument in  its  support,  limited  and  restrained.  If  the  resolutions  I  have  submitted 
have  any  merit,  it  lies  in  this  solely  :  the  principles  they  contain  are  so  evident  and 
obvious,  that  they  neither  require  nor  admit  of  argument  to  sustain  them.  What  I 
have  to  say,  therefore,  is  rather  by  way  of  explanation  than  of  argument:  believing, 
as  I  do,  tliat  this  will  constitute  their  sufficient  defence  and  best  apology. 

I  pray  the  Convention  to  recollect  that  the  resolutions  refer  to  two  distinct  objects; 
the  elective  franchise  and  the  princijple  of  taxation  ;  and  that  their  purpose  is  to  give  to 
these  two  great  principles  a  constitutional  consecration. 

The  principle  of  taxation,  and  ilie  elective  franchise,  at  all  times  most  important, 
especially  in  a  country  of  free  institutions  like  ours,  lj:a.ve  now  a  peculiar  interest, 
from  their  bearing  on  the  great  and  paramount  question,  v.-hich  occupies  every  head, 
and  throbs  in  every  heart  in  this  Convention  :  I  mean  tlie  question  oi  basis  and  appor- 
tionment of  representation.  They  are  presented  mainly  with  a  view  to  their  bearing 
on  that  object. 

When  1  arrived  here,  my  opinions  on  these  subjects,  v.'ere  not  formed  :  the  only 
sentiment  in  my  heart,  was  a  most  ardent  and  sincere  desire  to  know  what  was  truth, 
and  when  found,  to  pursue  it.  1  sought  light  every  where  ;  conversed  with  gentle- 
men of  various  and  opposite  opinions ;  sought  for  facts  in  all  directions,  and  listened 
to  the  reasoning  which  was  founded  on  them,  with  the  honest  intention  of  giving  due 
effect  to  both.  But  I  confess  to  you,  Sir,  that  as  I  proceeded,  my  own  judgment  be- 
came bewildered  in  tiiis  process.  Nor  is  such  a  result  at  all  surprising ;  for,  the  men- 
tal, like  the  bodily  vision,  we  all  know,  may  be  destroyed  as  well  by  the  excess,  as  by 
the  absence  of  light.  Tvly  intellect,  I  own,  was  insufficient  to  take  in  so  many  con- 
flicting and  various  principles,  at  a  single  glance  ;  still  less  was  it  able  to  pursue  them, 
through  all  their  multiplied  and  endless  combinations ;  least  of  all,  was  it  capable  of 
blending  them  into  one  mass,  giving,  to  each  fact,  and  to  each  argument,  its  proper 
force,  and  deriving  a  result,  which  should  be  satisfactory  to  my  own  mind.  Under 
circumstances  so  perplexing,  I  resorted  to  what  I  conceived  to  be  the  only  remedy  : 
one  which  rarely  had  deceived  me  :  it  was,  to  simplify,  to  disentangle  this  skein  of  fact 
and  argument,  to  analyse  the  materials  of  which  it  v/as  composed  ;  to  search  for  prin- 
ciples;  to  learn  the  reasons  of  them  ;  and  finally,  to  draw  a  just  conclusion,  to  the 
best  of  my  humble  capacity.  The  result  is  embodied  in  those  resolutions :  which,  if 
they  sliall  answer  no  other  purpose,  u:iay  at  least  furnish  channels  into  which  the 
thoughts  and  arguments  of  otlier  gentlemen  may  be  directed ;  by  which  means  the 
talent  and  intelligence  of  the  House  may  be  drawn  out  and  concentrated.  I  certainly 
should  not  have  offered  them,  had  I  not  believed  them  true.  But,  Sir,  I  value  truth 
more  than  consistencv:  I  will,  therefore,  endeavour  to  subdue  in  rnv  breast,  that  pride 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION, 


47 


of  opinion,  so  natural  to  man;  and  am  ready  to  abandon  these  resolutions  the  moment 
I  shall  be  convinced  of  their  fallacj-.  To  have  committed,  and  to  have  proclaimed, 
what  shall  aftervrards  prove  to  have  been  an  error  in  judgment,  is  a  venial  offence ; 
an  offence,  fully  expiated  by  the  mortification  of  confessing  it  (which  I  am  ready  to 
endure  :)  but  to  persist  after  the  judgment  is  convinced  of  its  error,  is  an  unpardon- 
able sin. 

Four  of  the  resolutions  refer  to  the  elective  franchise  :  by  the  leave  of  the  House, 
I  will  read  them. 

[Here  Mr.  T.  read  the  first  four  resolutions.] 

The  Committee  will  perceive  that  all  these  several  propositions  grow  out  of  one 
principle,  and  refer  but  to  one  object,  the  elective  francliise,  and  the  mode  in  which 
it  is  to  be  exercised.  Permit  me  to  preface  what  I  have  to  say  respecting  them,  by  a 
very  few  general  remarks. 

All  our  institutions,  whether  State  or  Federal,  in  their  character,  are  founded  in  the 
assumption  of  three  political  truths  :  1.  That  a  free  Government  is  the  best  calculated 
to  promote  human  happiness,  if  not  universally  in  all  countries  and  in  all  times,  at 
least  in  the  American  States :  2.  That  the  sovereignty  resides,  of  right,  and  in  fact, 
in  the  people  :  3.  That  the  best  mode  of  administering  Government  is  by  agents,  in- 
stead of  tlie  people  personally.  I  shall  not  stay  to  enquire  whether  these  assumptions 
be  false  or  true  :  I  do  not  indeed,  for  myself,  hesitate  to  declare  my  unquahfied  belief 
that  they  are  consonant  with  all  the  dictates  of  reason  and  of  truth;  and  I  beheve 
that  I  express  the  sentiments  of  every  individual  in  this  Convention,  when  I  make 
the  declaration.  But  I  allude  not  to  .these  principles,  either  to  justify  or  to  condemn 
them ;  I  only  call  the  attention  of  the  Committee  to  the  fact,  that  all  our  institutions 
rest  on  these  great  principles  of  Representative  Republics :  Repubhcan  in  this,  that 
they  repose  the  sovereignty  solely  in  the  people  :  Represeritativo  in  this,  that  that  so- 
vereignty shall  be  exercised  through  the  administration  of  agents,  of  representatives  ; 
and  not  personally,  by  the  people."  Nor  is  it  my  intention  to  enquire  who  are  the  peo- 
ple, in  whom  tills  sovereignty  is  supposed  to  reside.?  Some  gentlemen  think  that 
they  include  every  individual  in  the  community,  without  regard  to  age  or  sex  :  others 
maintain  that  the  people  are,  all  who  fight  and  pay  ;  all  who  defend  their  country  in 
the  hour  of  peril,  or  contribute  to  supply  its  purse  in/ ^  the  piping  times  of  peace  :" 
while  others,  again,  insist,  that  •■  people  '  means  those  only  on  whom  the  Constitution 
confers  the  right  of  exercising  political  power  !  (I  used  a  wrong  word;  1  will  correct 
the  language ;  I  should  haTe  said  not  those  on  whom  the  Constitution  confers,  but  in 
whom  it  recognizes  the  right  of  exercising  pohtical  power.)  Gentlemen  may  enter- 
tain as  many  different  opinions  on  this  point  as  they  please ;  I  meddle.not  with  them 
now;  the  resolutions  do  not  even  approach  these  opinions.  On  the  contrary,  they 
pre-suppose  that  the  Constitution  has  already  determined  by  whom  the  elective  fran- 
chise is  to  be  exercised,  and  only  attempt  to  regulate  the  mode  of  its  action.  The 
principle  of  the  resolutions  is  as  applicable  to  one  svffragan  (I  know  not  if  the  term 
be  strictly  proper.)  to  one  voter,  as  to  another ;  and  -.vill  be  equally  just,  whether  you 
shall  adopt  the  plan  of  freehold  sufi!"rage,  or  any  other,  in  its  stead. 

I  have  made  these  general  remarks  with  a  view  of  shewing  that  the  elective  fran-^ 
chise  is  an  essential  part  of  our  system;  that  it  furnishes  the  mode,  and  the  only 
mode,  whereby  effect  can  be  given  to  tlie  principle  of  rejrresentative  administration. 

The  elective  franchise  looks  to  two  objects  :  first,  the  persons  who  are  to  exercise 
it;  that  is,  suffrage  :  secondly,  to  the  effect  of  suff^rage  ;  that  is,  representation. 

Suffrage,  then:  shall  it  be  uniform  throughout  the  State.'  or  sliall  it  be  diverse  in 
divers  parts  of  the  State.'  so  that,  one  man  shall  have  a  right  in  one  part  of  the 
State,  which,  in  circumstances  exactly  similar,  shall  not  be  enjoyed  by  another,  in  a 
different  part  of  the  State  ?  This  question,  it  is  the  purpose  of  the  first  resolution  to 
settle.  The  Bill  of  Rights  declares  that  all  elections  shall  be  free  :  I  would  farther 
add  and  shall  be  uniform."  Convenience  recommends  it.  It  will  avoid  the  confu- 
sion of  having  different  rules  in  different  places ;  rules  local  and  personal ;  instead  of 
universal  and  uniform.  Justice  and  equal  rights  require  it.  There  can  be  no  depar- 
tiure  from  the  rules  of  uniformity,  v/i^hout  conferring  on  some,  immunities  and  privi- 
leges which  are  denied  to  others,  in  direct  opposition  to  two  other  articles  in  this  same 
Bill  of  Rights.  The  propriety  of  inserting  such  a  resolution  in  your  Constitution, 
arises  from  the  fact,  that  the  present  Constitution  has  not  so  provided ;  but,  on  the 
contrary,  establishes  the  very  reverse.  Its  basis  of  representation,  is  the  possession  of 
freehold.  In  this,  its  rule  may  have  been  thought  uniform  ;  but  there  are  portions  of 
the  State,  in  which  the  Constitution  establishes  a  local  rule,  applying  to  that  portion 
alone.  In  West  Au^justa,  the  existing  Constitution  recognized  the^right  in  '-Jdnd- 
koldcrs'  who  were  not  freeholders.  West  Augusta,  at  the  time  the  Constitution 
was  adopted,  comprehended  a  large  extent  of  territory,  from  which  many  counties 
have  since  been  formed.  It  then  formed  a  barrier  against  Indian  warfare;  and  their 
titles,  founded  on  occupancy  only,  were  held  by  the  tenure  of  the  rifle,  and  not  by 
parchment.    There  were  others,  Vvho  were  incapable  of  perfecting  their  title  by  the 


48 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


existing  law.  In  1752,  it  was  the  policy  of  the  Colony,  to  erect  a  barrier  against  the 
Indians,  on  our  western  frontier.  With  a  view  to  this  object,  we  invited  within  out 
boundary  foreign  Protestants  aliens,  who  could  neither  hold  nor  transmit  lands. 
So,  in  the  Borough  of  Norfolk,  and  in  the  City  of  Williamsburg,  the  right  of  suffrage 
was  extended  to  individuals,  in  a  manner  different  from  what  it  is  in  the  other  por- 
tions of  Virginia.  These  rights  I  hope  to  see  extended  to  others  similarly  situated. 
The  object  of  my  resolution  is,  to  remove  these  anomalies,  and  to  establish  one  laic, 
and  one  rule,  fov  all  who  enjoy  the  privilege  of  voting  at  all.  To  establish  such 
uniform  rule,  is  the  only  object  of  the  first  resolution. 

Suflrage  being  established,  whether  uniform  or  diverse,  another  enquiry  presents 
itself  of  great  delicacy  and  importance.  What  shall  be  the  effect  of  suffrage?  I 
mean  not  as  it  regards  representation,  but  as  between  the  voters  themselves.  Are  all  to 
be  units  ?  all  of  alike  value  ?  or,  will  you  graduate  the  votes  given  Will  you  regu- 
late their  value  by  the  excess  of  the  j^ropcrty  the  voter  may  oion,  over  and  above  the 
standard  which  you  shall  have' erected 

The  resolution  proposes,  when  you  have  fixed  the  qualification  to  be  possessed  by 
all  voters,  to  malie  all  the  votes  equal,  without  regard  to  any  disparity  of  fortune  among 
the  voters  :  and  I  pray  the  House  to  indulge  me,  while  I  attempt  the  development  of 
the  principle  I  advocate,  by  a  particular  application  of  it.  But  I  premonish  the 
House,  that  I  offer  an  explanation  on  this  subject,  not  because  I  suppose  there  exists 
among  us  any  diversity  of  opinion,  as  to  creating  this  uniformity  loithin  the  same 
district.  My  object  is,  to  ascertain  ])rincij)les,  with  a  vieia  to  their  ulterior  ajjplication.  > 
Imagine  a  county  containing  three  hundred  qualified  voters ;  of  these,  two  hundred  ' 
and  fifty  vote  for  A  ;  the  remaining  fifty  vote  for  B  .-^  Tell  me  which  ought  to  be  the 
representative  of  that  county.''  The  question  may  seem  strange.  Yet  the  House  will 
perceive,  that  the  decision  of  this  question  depends  upon  another,  viz:  whether  you 
will  graduate  the  votes  given  by  the  icealth  of  the  voters,  or  whether  you  will  make  all 
the  voters  count  as  units,  all  of  equal  value.  For  explanation Suppose  of  the  two 
hundred  and  fifty  voters  for  A,  each  owns  a  freehold  worth  one  hundred  dollars,  and 
that  the  fifty  who  vote  for  B,  besides  possessing  this  qualification,  own  besides,  each  a 
large  estate,  say  worth  one  thousand  dollars.  If  numbers  are  to  elect,  A  is  elected,  by 
five  to  one  :  but,  if  icealth  is  to  elect,  if  property  is  to  be  taken  into  view,  not  merely 
for  the  safety,  but  for  the  effect  of  elections,  then  B  is  elected  ;  fifty  thousand  dollars 
is  on  B's  side ;  but  twenty-five  thousand  dollars  en  A's.  If  numbers  elect,  A  is  cho-  •  ■ 
sen,  five  to  one  ;  if  wealth,  then  B  is  chosen,  two  to  one.  But,  suppose  you  adopt  a 
compound  r«i«o,  produced  by  multiplying' wealth  into  numbers ;  what  will  then  be 
the  result.?  While  A  gets  but  twenty-five  thousand  two  hundred  and  fifty,  B  gets 
fifty  thousand  and  fifty.  So  that  the  result  is  still  precisely  the  same  ;  the  effect  is 
just  what  it  would  have  been,  if  reference  had  been  had  to  icealth  alone. 

Perhaps  I  may  be  told,  this  is  a  subject  about  which  it  is  impossible  for  gentlemen 
to  differ.  Excuse  me  :  it  is  the  subject  on  which  alone  there  is  any  great  difference 
of  opinion  in  the  House.  For  the  contemplated  ratio,  the  compound  uf  numbers  and 
taxation,  so  earnestly  insisted  on  as  the  true  basis  of  representation,  is  neither  more  nor 
less,  hoicever  it  may  he  disguised,  than  this  very  thing.  Let  me  imagine  an  argument 
on  this  subject.  Let  me  suppose  the  question  between  A's  right  and  B's  to  come  up 
here,  and  you  to  be  the  umpires  between  them;  and  then  let  me  endeavour  to  ima- 
gine the  argument  in  behalf  of  B,  (having  fifty  votes.)  The  advocates  of  B  would 
tell  you  that  Government  was  formed  chiefly,  if  not  solely,  for  the  protection  of  pro- 
perty :  That  there  is  a  natural,  inherent  enmity  between  capital  and  labour  :  That 
the  contest  is  interminable  hetween  persons  and  icealth,  (for,  strip  the  subject  of  the 
mystification,  by  which  it  is  usually  surrounded,  and  labour  and  capital  mean  no 
more  !)  That  the  two  hundred  and  fifty  voters  who  voted  for  A,  though  individually 
honest,  are,  through  the  ignorance  and  infirmity  of  human  nature,  not  worthy  of  be- 
ing intrusted  with  political  power:  Will  they  not  appeal  to  experience,  and  insist 
that  that  touch-stone  has  tried  what  the  nature  of  man  is,  and  has  decided  that  when 
the  many  possess  the  power  of  exercising  rapine  upon  the  fcui,  it  has  ever  followed 
that  they  exercise  such  power  and  commit  the  depredation  :  That,  if  the  Govern- 
ment were  so  constituted  as  to  give  the  power  of  "representation  by  numbers  only,  and 
so  admit  the  two  hundred  and  fifty  to  elect  their  representative,  the  efi'ect  would  be, 
that  as  he  would  be  bound  to  obey  his  constituents,  the  rapine  would  still  take  place, 
with  tills  only  difterence,.  that  it  would  be  accomplished  by  the  forms  of  legislation, 
instead  of  force,  without  any  form  at  all  :  That  there  can  be  no  guarantee  against 
the  effect :  That  the  guarantee  afforded  by  the  power  of  law,  the  sanctity  of  the 
Constitution,  and  the  force  of  moral  principle,  however  they  may  be  found  sufficient 
for  the  protection  of  life  and  of  reputation,  proye  totally  inadequate  as  a  safeguard  for 
property  :  That  the  only  effectual,  only  sufficient  guai^antee,  is  to  give  to  the  fifty 
votes  for  B  more  effect  than  the  two  hundred  and  fifty  votes  for  A  :  That,  in  a  word, 
the  only  means  of  guarding  property  is  to  place  ihe  poiver  of  Government  in  the  hands 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION, 


49 


of  those  xcho  possess  most  property  ?    Would  not  tliese  be  the  topics  of  argument  by 
which  the  cause  of  B  Trould  be  advocated  on  tliis  floor  ? 

It  is  not  my  purpose  to  fatigue  the  Conxniittee  or  occupy  its  time  by  giving,  in  re- 
ply, the  answers  which  might  be  adduced  in  A"s  behalf.  This  question  is  settled  in 
the  mind  of  every  gentleman  in  the  Convention  :  it  is  settled  by  the  general  senti- 
ment of  this  nation  :  by  the  deep,  the  universal,  and,  I  trust,  the  changeless  feeling, 
which  attaches  us  all  to  our  firee  and  happy  institutions;  a  feeling  which  has  its 
source  in  the  conviction  of  the  equality  they  mabvtain  atnong  the  citizens  of  the  Re- 
public, and  the  justice  xchich  floics  from  that  equality. 

If  I  am  ricfht  in  this,  can  the  House  have  any  difhculty  in  adopting  the  resolution 
What  does  it  ask  ?    Nothing  but  what,  in  the  practical  administration  of  the  Govern- 
ment, aheady  actually  exists  :    But  it  proposes  to  give  a  Constitutivnal  sanction  to  what 
does  indeed  exist  in  fact,  but  which  the  Constitution  does  no  ichere  guarantee  and  secure. 

I  pray  you  to  refer  to  the  existing  Constitution.  I  say,  that  although  in  fact  equa- 
lity of  sulirage  does  exist,  it  rests  on  sufferance  merely.  I  wish  it  not  only  to  exist, 
but  to  have  a  Constitutional  consecration. 

The  only  clause  in  the  Constitiition  which  bears  upon  the  subject  is  this  brief  sen- 
tence :  The  right  of  suflrage  shall  remain  as  it  is  exercised  at  present."  I  would 
not  be  hypercritical  in  examining  this  declaration ;  but  to  me  it  does  appear  to  provide 
against  taking  aicay  any  rights  already  possessed  and  exercised,  and  not  to  regulate 
the  equahty  of  suffrage  among  the  voters.  All  it  prohibits  is  the  strippmg  those  of 
the  right  of  suffrage,  who  now  hold  it:  no  more  :  it  does  not  take  from  the  Legisla- 
t\ire  the  power  of  determining  the  relative  effect  of  votes  between  the  voters  them- 
selves. Yet,  surely  in  a  matter  of  such  vital  importance,  nothing  ought  to  be  left  to 
doubt  and  uncertaintv.  If  the  existing  Constitution  does  what  this  resolution  p\ir- 
ports  to  do,  all  the  effect  of  the  resolution  will  be  to  confirm  the  declaration  of  the 
Constitution  :  but  if  it  does  not,  then  this  resolution  will  supply  the  deficiency,  and 
it  is  proper  that  the  question  should  be  settled  now.  Such  are  some  of  the  considera- 
tions which  unite  to  reconmiend  the  adoption  of  tiiis  resolution. 

There  are  two  others,  the  tliird  and  fourth,  wliichhave  reference  to  representation  ; 
that  is,  to  the  effect  of  the  elective  franchise,  xchen  exerted. 

The  third  resolution  seems  to  be  only  a  corollary  from  the  first :  it  affirms,  especially 
zs,  now  modified,  nothing  more  than  that  the  xmiforraity  of  individual  siiffrage  shall  be 
extended  to  its  effect,  that  is,  to  representation. 

The  fourth  resolution  is  nothing  more  than  a  corollary  to  the  second.    It  is  only.  . 
the  expansion  and  apphcation  of  the  same  principle  to  representation,  which  is  pro- 
posed to  the  voters  themselves:  i.  e.  that  representation  shall  be  uniform,  IhaX  like 
numbers  shall  confer  like  rights  of  representation,  iciihout  regard  to  the  disparity  of 
fortune  tchich  may  e.zist  in  the  agsregate. 

One  woxild  thirik  there  could  be  no  difficulty  in  admitting  a  conclusion  like  this. 
Representation  is  hut  the  effect  of  a  number  of  sxffrages.    If.  then,  the  suffrages  are   -  - 
all  equal,  it  would  seem  perfectly  plain  that  equal  numbers  of  equal  suffrages  should 
produce  an  equal  aggregate  amount ;  and  so  equal  representation.    Wotdd  any  gentle- 
man here  hesitate  to  adopt  such  a  principle,  except  in  a  particular  mode  of  its  ope-  ■ 
ration  ? 

1  stated  a  case  supposed  to  exist  in  one  county.  Now  imagine  the  same  case  to  ex- 
ist in  every  county.  Is  there  any  reason  why  fifty  voters  should  outvote  two  hun- 
dred and  fifty  in  one  county  rather  than  in  another.''  Locality. cannot  alter  right.  If 
fifty-  voters  are  to  do  this  in  the  county  of  Norfolk,  then  fifty  voters  should  do  the 
same  in  the  covmty  of  Brooke  :  and  in  every  other  county  in  the  State.  There  is  no 
difference  of  opinion  as  to  making  the  effect  equal  icithiti'  any  one  county  or  district. 
On  this,  all  are  agreed.  Where,  then,  does  the  difficulty  arise  in  assenting  to  the 
principle  ?  When,  you  consider  its  operation  not  icitkin  any  district,  but  between 
different  districts,  then  only  do  gentlemen  differ  from  me.  But  shall  any  one  district, 
by  any  arrangement  whatever,  introduce  a  principle  which  you  all  repudiate  zcithin  a 
county?  -Shall  it  give  an  effect  to  property  when  in  extensive  combinations,  which 
is  denied  to  property  in  a  more  limited  field  .=  Suppose  you  divide  your  district  into 
three  comities,  containing  each  nine  hundred  voters.  There  is  not  one  o-entieman 
here  who  will  hesitate  to  say,  that  a  majority  of  qualified  voters  shall  give  the  rule  of 
election  icithin  each  of  these  counties.  But  suppose,  again,  that  in  iavincp  out  your 
district  boundary,  you  take  the  other  rvile,  and  say  that  property  shcdl  elect  :^what  will 
the  operation  of  such  a  principle  be  ? 

But  the  proposed  compound  ratio  wholly  disregards  this  principle  of  equahty  of 
right  in  the  organization  of  districts.    Let  me  illustrate  this  : 
Tlnee  counties  in  Eastern  Virginia,  such  as  I  have  described  before,  are 
formed  into  a  district,  and  the  nine  hundred  qualified  voters  become  en- 
titled to  one  representative.    In  another  part  of  the  State,  nine  hundred 
other  quahfied  voters  claim  similar  representation.    But  it  is  fotmd  that  in 

7 


50 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


the  first  district  the  nine  hundred  voters  pay  each  say  ^  1  tax,  -  -  ^  900 
And  that  there  are  one  hundred  and  fifty  persons  among  the  nine  hundred 

v/ho  pay  beyond  the  others  the  sum  of  600 

Making  an  aggregate  of  taxes          .       .       .  ^1^500 
The  otlier  nine  hundred  persons  who  claim  a  representative,  are  also  (like 
the  seven  Imndred  and  fifty  of  tlie  first  district)  all  qualified  voters,  and 
pay  $  1  each,  900 


Leaving  a  diflJerence  of    -       -       -       -       -    $  600 
This  difference  is  wholly  produced  by  the  superior  wealth  of  the  one  hundred  and 
fifty  persons  in  the  first  district.    To  equalize  the  district,  the  compound  ratio  propo- 
ses to  throw  a  quahfied  voter  into  the  scale  to  counterbalance  this  wealth. 

Thus,  then,  said  he,  one  county  will  contain  nine  hundred  men,  the  other  fifteen 
hundred  ;  you  add  six  hundred  men  to  make  up  for  the  difference  of  property.  And 
is  tJie  evil  less,  because  it  is  disguised  Disguise  it  as  you  will,  this  is  not  equal  re- 
prescntation ;  and  if  the  principle  of  all  our  tree  Republican  institutions  cries  out 
against  fftif  men  electing  a  candidate  against  tico  Imndred  and  fifty  in  a  single  county, 
why  not  in  more  extended  portions  of  tiie  State  You  give  to  wealth  in  a  district 
a  power  you  refuse  to  it  in  a  county,  though  the  district  is  but  a  collection  of  coun- 
ties. While  there,  it  lies  dormant ;  exerts  no  power  at  all  :  but  the  moment  you  go 
beyond  tlie  county  line,  it  then  recyives  vigour  and  effect ;  I  fear,  a  pernicious  vi- 
gour, and  an  effect  fatal  to  freedom.  Pray,  let  me  be  understood.  I  disclaim,  in 
these  remarks,  the  least  possible  disrespect  toward  gentlemen,  who  differ  from  me  in 
sentiment :  but  in  my  judgment  it  is  an  oligarchical  principle ;  it  gives  the  minority 
power  to  control  tlie  majority,  although  admitted  to  be  equal  participants  in  political 
power.  And,  if  you  would  consider  this  as  an  ohgarchical  principle,  if  introduced  into 
counties,  I  conjure  you  to  consider  how  you  give  to  wealth,  when  in  large  masses, 
what  you  refuse  it  in  the  elements  of  which  those  very  masses  are  all  composed.  If 
the  principle  be  wrong  in  itself,  it  is  only  the  more  dangerous  from  being  concealed. 
The  danger  which  I  know,  courage  may  enable  me  to  brave,  or  skill  to  elude  ;  but  if 
the  dinger  approach  unseen,  if  it  assails  me  unwarned  and  unprepared,  it  only  the 
more  certainly  destroys.  Masses  of  men  act  with  an  effect  not  in  exact  proportion 
to  tlieir  numbers.  The  effect  increases  more  rapidly  than  the  number.  A  single 
griin  of  gunpowder  may  explode  in  a  lady's  boudoir,  without  producing  any  effect 
su  licient  to  wave  one  of  her  lightest  plumes;  but  when  aggregated  masses  of  those 
grains  are  exploded,  castles  topple  to  their  foundations,  and  towers  fall  before  its  re- 
S;stless  power.  Do  not  say  the  principle  is  harmless,  because  it  operates  on  masses 
only  :  as  you  aggregate  men  into  masses,  instead  of  diminishing,  you  increase  the 
mischief  I  say  that  this  principle,  of  giving  the  power  to  wealth,  corrupts  and  viti- 
ates the  very  person's  it  is  intended  to  benefit.  The  safety  of  our  free  institutions, 
consists  in  the  profound  conviction  of  their  justice  and  equpJity  of  operation.  Des- 
troy this  conviction;  weaken  it;  lead  the  people  to  doubt  the  salutary  operation  of 
those  principles,  and  what  will  be  the  result  ?  You  have  taken  the  first  step  in  the 
downward  road  tliat  lias  conducted  all  the  free  nations  in  the  world,  first  to  faction  ; 
then  to  convulsions  ;  and  finally  to  the  sword,  and  a  monarch,  for  protection.  Oh, 
then,  let  no  consideration* induce  us  to  weaken,  in  the  slightest  degree,  that  feeling  of 
sacred  regard  towards  free  institutions,  which  is  the  best  safeguard  of  their  perpetuity. 
When  you  say,  that  nine  hundred  men  in  one  district,  and  fifteen  hundred  men  in 
another,  shall  have  hxd  the  same  representation  in  the  Government,  you  bribe  and 
ten:ipt  the  honest  simplicity  of  your  fellow-citizens,  to  commit  a  fraud  upon  their 
brethren.  You  make  them  the  instruments,  willing  instruments,  if  you  please,  by 
which  the  influence  of  property  is  brought  to  bear  upon  political  power  and  civil  li- 
berty. Thus,  you  prepare  them  more  readily  to  yield,  whenever  the  influence  of 
wealth,  zoithin  their  oion  county,  shall  advance  its  claims  to  the  same  power,  it  enjoys 
without  the  county  line. 

Men  of  property  within  all  our  counties,  are  deeply  interested  in  this  question. 
Let  me  I'emind  such  men,  that  the  Chieftain  in  the  border  war  who  tempted  their 
kinsmen  and  retainers,  to  pass  the  line  and  foray  for  spoil  upon  the  land  of  their 
neighbours,  destroyed  their  loyalty,  corrupted  their  fidelity,  lost  their  attachment;  and 
a--,  last  have  been  actually  compelled  to  pay  Mack-mail  to  their  own  vassals  for  protec- 
tion. We  are  all  interested  in  preserving  the  great  principles  of  Republican  freedom  : 
Men  of  property  not  less  than  others  :  It  is  to  these  principles  that  our  most  valuable 
institutions  owe  their  being  and  preservation,  and  our  people  their  national  happiness. 

G-:ve  me  leave  to  ask  of  gentlemen  one  question.  Representation;  what  is  it?  It 
is  the  effect  of  suffrage.  Suffrage  is  the  cause,  representation  the  effect:  Suffrage  is 
the  parent,  representation  only  its  offspring.  What  then  ought  to  follow  What  ought 
the  relation  to  be  between  the  cause  and  its  result.-'  What  the  similitude  between  pa- 
rent and  child  ?  Should  there  be  no  familv  likeness  ?  No  correspondence  between  him 


DEBATES    OF   THE  COXYEXTION. 


51 


who  represents,  and  him  who  confers  the  power  of  representation?  Is  there  to  be  in 
the  Deleofate  no  principle  of  resemblance  to  the  individual  who  sends  hun?  Surely 
the  representative  is  but  the  mirror,  which,  if  true,  throws  back  the  just  image  of  the 
zoters  who  gave  him  his  place.  R-epresentation,  to  be  perfect,  must  throw  back  such 
an  image  of  the  people  represented^  in  all  their  proportions,  features,  and  peculiaiities. 
I  hope  gentlemen  will  excuse  me  for  a  remark,  which  may  not  correspond  -odth  their 
views  and  feelings;  but  to  ma  it  appears  inconceivable,  how  there  can  be  a  represeiita- 
tive  without  constituents :  and  how  can  there  be  constituents,  without  power  to  dele- 
gate,? How  can  a  man  be  a  constituent,  and  him  he  creates  not  be  his  delegate.  Pro- 
perty cannot  vote  ;  it  cannot  delegate  power;  and  yet  we  are  told  that  it  is  to  have  a 
representative.  The  voter  sxixely,  and  the  voter  only  is  the  representative,  when  we 
speak  of  representatives. 

I  hope,  said  Mr.  T.  that  the  Committee  will  perceive,  that  I  have  had  no  other  ob- 
ject hitherto  but  merely  to  explain  the  nature  and  the  effect  of  the  resolutions  I  have 
proposed ;  that  I  am  offering  but  little  argument ;  relying  as  I  do  upon  their  own  in- 
trinsic truth.  I  have  purposely  avoided  all  answer  to  the  objections,  which  may  be 
urged  against  them  :  and  I  am  led  to  adopt  this  course  by  two  considerations  :  First, 
my  object  in  only  explaining,  is  that  the  undivided  attention  of  the  House  might  be 
dra-\vn  to  the  principles  themselves  :  but  I  have  another  reason  ;  I  thought  it  decorous, 
fmr  and  honorable,  to  allow  to  gentlemen  who  differ  from  me  in  sentiment,  the  advan- 
tage of  presenting  their  own  views  in  their  own  form ;  that  those  views  may  produce 
their  entire  effect  upon  the  House.  If  in  the  progress  of  debate,  it  shall  become  ne- 
cessary, I  may  pray  the  House  to  indulge  me  in  reviewing  the  most  important  objec- 
tions, when  they  shall  have  been  made  ;  and  in  fortifying  my  original  resolutions,  if 
I  shall  be  able.  To  my  course  in  this  respect,  there  is  but  one  exception ;  and  that 
iias  reference  to  the  fifth  resolution  : 
J^flere  Mr.  T.  read  the  resolution.] 

It  refers  to  taxation;  and  I  will  own  that  I  introduced  it  in  connexion  with  the  other 
subjects  for  the  purpose  of  asserting  what  the  true  principle  of  taxation  is  ;  but  I  com- 
bined this  principle  of  taxati^on,  with  the  resolutions  respecting  representation,  to  show 
that  one  should  have  no  influence  in  regulating  the  other.  The  one  looks  to  property 
only ;  the  other  to  qualified,  zoters  only.  In  the  resolution,  a  proposition  is  affirmed  in 
the  first  member  of  it;  then,  a  fact  is  affirmed;  and  the  last  clause  is  an  inference 
from  the  two,  though  not  in  strict  syllogistic  form.  Some  may  think  the  premises  are 
false ;  but  none  will  deny  that  it  is  unjust  to  require  each  citizen  chargeahie  icith  taxes^ 
to  pay  an  equal  aviouni.  What  would  be  the  effect  of  such  a  principle  Evidently 
this ;  that  in  time  of  foreign  v^'ar  or  domestic  need,  be  the  exigencies  of  the  State 
what  they  may,  no  greater  sum  can  be  raised  by  taxation,  than  the  amount  which  the 
very  poorest  man  in  the  coixununitv  is  required  to  pay,  multiplied  bv  the  total  number 
of  the  citizens  of  the  State.  You  can  lay  nothing-  more  on  the  richest  man,  than  on 
the  poorest;  if  each  is  to  pay  an  equal  sum  ;  and  thus  the  wealth  of  its  citizens  woiild 
be  totally  iiseless  and  unproductive  to  the  Commonwealth,  though  the  Republic  be  in 
danger. 

Whence  does  the  obligation  to  public  contribution  arise  i  Whence  but  from  the 
consideration  that  each  individual  is  bound  to  pay  to  the  public  for  the  protection  of 
his  property.  The  Government  itself,  I  mean  by  its  moral  as  well  as  physical  force, 
is  in  fact  the  underwriter  of  all  the  property  in  the  communitv  :  and  each  indi-\-idual 
should  pay  for  the  general  protection  in  proportion  to  the  risk  incurred;  that  is,  ac- 
cording to  the  amount  of  property  he  has  to  be  insured.  The  principle  is  founded  in 
the  eternal  nature  of  justice ;  which  requires  that  contribution  should  be  in  proportion 
to  the  good  received.  I  think  that  even  if  my  resolution  should  be  convicted  of  false 
logic,  and  that  neither  the  major  nor  the  minor  members  of  the  syllogism  were  true, 
and  that  the  conclusion  did  not  follow ;  still,  the  proposition  itself,  contained  in  the 
conclusion,  must  be  acknowledged  by  all  to  be  true  and  evident.  None  doub»ts  the 
fact,  that  property  is  unequally  distributed ;  nor  do  I  see  huw  any  can  deny  the  prin- 
ciple, that  each  man  ought  to  pay  to  the  State  in  proportion  to  his  ahility  to  pay.  I  do 
not  say  in  proportion  to  his  capital,  or  to  the  profits  upon  his  capital ;  l3ut  in  propor- 
tion to  Ills  '•  ability  to  pay.''  I  put  the  proposition  in  the  broadest  terms  :  and  in  such 
a  form  as  -will  apply  to  any  system  of  political  economy,  gentlemen  may  respectively 
think  fit  to  adopt. 

If  the  ground  I  have  taken,  be  tenable,  then  we  have  arrived  at  the  true  sources  of 
representation  and  taxation ;  they  are  not  two  twin  streams,  which  have  their  com- 
mon source  in  the  same  distant  glen;  which  chance  mav  have  separated  for  a  time, 
and  which  afterwards  re-unite  :  they  issue  from  different  fountains :  flow  to  different 
oceans,  and  never  can  be  united  but  by  some  power  which  perverts  the  object  for 
which  nature  destined  them.  When  you  look  to  representatioji,  yon  look  to  men: 
when  you  look  to  taxation,  you  look  to  the  ability  to  pay,  and  to  the  property  from 
which  this  payment  is  to  be  made. 


52 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  Taylor  concluded  by  a  short  peroration ;  apologising  for  the  time  he  liad  occu- 
pied, disclaiming  all  intention  to  offend,  and  deprecating  such  an  imputation ;  and 
professing  his  readiness  to  renounce  his  views  as-soon  as  convinced  they  were  untrue. 
He  then  moved  that  the  resolutions  be  received  and  added  as  an  amendment  to  the 
Bill  of  Rights. 

The  question  being  on  the  adoption  of  the  first  of  Mr.  Taylor's  resolutions, 
Mr.  Green  of  Culpeper,  said,  that  he  should  vote  against  all  the  resolutions, 
although  he  approved  of  some  of  the  principles  they  contained ;  and  he  should  do  so 
beca.use  he  thought  their  proper  place  was  not  in  the  Bill  of  Rights,  but,  if  any  where, 
in  the  Constitution  of  the  State. 

Mr.  Nicholas  of  Richmond,  said,  that  he  did  not  rise  to  discuss  the  resolutions 
which  had  been  submitted,  although  there  were  various  considerations  in  respect  to 
tiiem,  which  forcibly  struck  his  mind.  Any  man  who  had  turned  his  attention  much 
to  politics  must  know,  that  in  those  matters,  there  was  no  such  thing  as  abstract  truth. 
Political  maxims  were  valuable,  only  as  applying  to  the  actual  circumstances  of  the 
country,  and  must  always  be  considered  as  in  connexion  with  them.  It  would  not 
do  to  apply  principles,  suited  to  one  state  of  society,  to  a  state  of  things  entirely  dif- 
ferent. He  understood  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk,  as  having  said  that  he  had 
brouo-ht  forward  these  propositions  with  a  view  to  settle  the  great  question  which  the 
Convention  was  called  to  decide.  Mr.  N.  said,  he  was  unwilling  to  decide  that  ques- 
tion hi  this  way.  That  question  grew  out  of  various  considerations  in  the  state  of  the 
country,  and  must  be  considered  as  applying  to  them.  He  was  willing  to  admit  the 
abstract  truth  of  some  of  the  gentleman's  propositions ;  there  were  others  of  them 
which  he  should  be  disposed  t  )  deny,  and  the  two  were  so  far  blended  that  he  could 
not  assent  to  the  resolutions.  It  seemed  strange  to  him,  that  instead^  of  waiting  for 
the  discussion  of  the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  the  Convention  was,  at 
this  stage  of  its  proceedings,  called  to  decide  upon  doctrines  in  the  abstract,  without 
any  attempt  at  applying  their  practical  bearing.  If  they  were  adopted  and  added  to 
the  Bill  of  R.ights,  their  effects  would  all  have  to  be  discussed  again,  Avhen  the  other 
report  came  before  the  Convention.  Cui  bono?  why  go  over  the  same  matters  twice? 
Besides,  the  Bill  of  Rights  was  drawn  up  by  some  of  the  wisest,  most  virtuous  and 
most  patriotic  men  this  country  had  ever  produced  ;  it  was  truly  a  noble  production, 
and  it  declared  truth  so  well,  that  he  felt  unwilling  to  add  to  it,  or  substitute  another 
in  its  room.  But,  surely  the  Convention  should  not  attempt  to  decide  on  so  great  a 
question  ;  a  question,  which  would  go  to  produce  an  entire  revolution  in  the  condi- 
tion of  the  State  without  knowing  something  more  of  the  effects  of  their  decision. 
The  gentleman  had  much  better  reserve  his  resolutions,  till  the  Legislative  report 
should  come  up.  He  would  not  be  excluded,  and  that  opportunity  would  be  a  more 
fit  one.  Mr.  N.  ^aid  he  should  have  said  nothing,  but  olsserving,  that  no  other  gen- 
tleman seemed  disposed  to  rise,  he  had  given  briefly  the  reasons  which  would  induce 
him  to  vote  against  the  resolutions. 

Mr.  Johnson  moved  to  lay  ilie  resolutions  upon  the  table,  but  professed  his  willing- 
ness to  withdraw  the  motion,  if  any  member  of  the  Convention  was  desirous  of  sub- 
mitting his  views.  He  was  satisfied  some  -gentlemen  would  vote  against  the  resolu- 
tions now,  who  would  vote  for  them  when  they  should  hear  their  practical  application 
discussed.  The  proper  time  for  that  discussion  would  be  when  the  report  of  the  Le- 
gislative Committee  should  come  up  for  discussion. 

Mr.  Taylor  observed  in  reply,  that  he  had  not  the  least  objection  that  the  reso- 
lutions should  be  laid  upon  the  table  :  but  the  gentleman  had  thought  this  was  not  the 
proper  time  to  discuss  these  principles.  He  differed  entirely  on  that  point,  and  con- 
sidered this  as  the  "  accepted  time."  If  gentlemen  thought  the  resolutions  should  be 
acted  upon  at  all,  it  should  certainly  be  in  connexion  with  the  Bill  of  Rights.  What 
was  the  object  of  the  Bill  of  Rights.^  It  was  to  settle  the  very  abstractions,  to  which 
the  gentleman  seemed  so  averse  ;  to  settle  principles  ;  to  set  up  certain  landmarks  for 
the  framing  of  a  Constitution.  It  prescribed  the  general  rules  which  it  was  the  pur- 
pose of  the  Constitution  to  develope  and  expand.  Its  use  was  to  familiarise  the  people 
to  a  consideration  of  these  great  principles  of  free  Government,  and  thereby  to  con- 
trol the  action  of  the  Legislature.  If  the  principles  he  had  brought  forward  were 
right  in  themselves,  and  worthy  of  adoption  in  any  form,  it  should  be  in  the  Bill  of 
Rights.  Let  them  stand  there  as  touch-stones,  to  try  with  what  fidelity  the  Constitu- 
tion should  be  drawn,  and  the  legislation  of  the  State  carried  on  under  it.  Gentlemen 
object  to  abstractions :  the  Bill  of  Rights  declares  all  men  to  be  born  by  nature,  free 
and  equal.  Does  the  gentlem?^n  call  that  an  abstraction  ?  Why  is  it  any  more  so, 
,  when  by  another  declaration,  the  equality  of  men  is  stated,  not  as  in  a  state  of  nature, 
but  as  in  a  state  of  political  society  ?  It  was  but  carrying  out  the  object  of  that  instru- 
ment. He  could  not  agr^e  with  gentlemen,  who  thought  the  proper  time  for  fixing 
such  principles,  would  be  when  the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee  came  up  for 
consideration. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


53 


On  motion  of  Mr.  Johnson,  the  resolutions  were  then  laid  on  the  table. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Doddridge,  the  Convention  proceeded  to  consider  the  report  of 
the  Committee  on  the  Legislative  Department  of  Government.  The  report  was  read 
at  the  Clerk's  table,  and  the  first  section  having  then  been  read  by  the  Chairman  for 
amendment,  as  ibllows : 

"  Resolved,  That  in  the  apportionment  of  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates, 
regard  should  be  had  to  the  white  population  exclusively." 

Air.  Green  moved  to  amend  it  by  striking  out  the  word  exclusively,"  and  adding 
in  lieu  thereof  the  words  "  and  taxation  combined. 

And  the  question  being  on  this  amendment : 

Mr.  Green  stated,  there  were  some  documents  expected  momently  from  the  Audi- 
tor, which  had  a  bearing  on  the  amendment ;  and  he  therefore  wished  the  action  of 
the  House  suspended  till  they  should  be  received;  and  he,  thereupon,  moved  that 
the  Committee  rise. 

It  arose  accordingly,  and  the  President  having  resumed  his  seat,  Mr.  Barbour  re- 
ported, that  the  Committee  had,  according -to  order,  liad  the  subjects  referred  to  them 
under  consideration,  and  had  made  some  progress  therein  ;  but  had  come  to  no  con- 
clusion thereon. 

And  then  the  Convention  adjourned  till  to-morrow,  eleven  o'clock. 


TUESDAY,  OcTOEEn  27,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  eleven  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev. 
Mr.  Parks,  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Scott,  it  then  proceeded  to  the  Order  of  the  Day,  and  again 
went  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour  in  the  Chair. 

And  the  question  lying  over  from  yesterday,  being  on  the  amendment  proposed  by 
Mr.  Green  of  Culpeper,  to  the  first  resolution  reported  by  the  Committee  on  the  Le- 
gislative Department  of  Government,  viz  :  To  strike  out  the  word  exdnsively,''  in 
the  resolution,  (which  declares  that  in  the  apportionment  of  representation  in  the 
House  of  Delegates,  regard  should  be  had  to  the  white  population  exclusively,'')  and 
insert  in  lieu  thereof,  the  words  "  and  taxation  comhitiedJ' 

Mr.  Green  observed,  that  he  had  proposed  this  amendment  with  a  view  to  bring  up 
the  whole  subject  for  discussion  ;  so  that  both  sides  of  the  great  question  in  relation 
to  the  basis  of  representation,  might  be  before  the  Committee  :  and  it  was  under  the 
impression  that  the  whole  field  being  thus  opened,  some  gentleman  would  enter  upon 
the  subject,  b}^  stating  the  grounds  on  which  it  was  desired  to  introduce  a  new  prin- 
ciple of  representation  into  the  Constitution.  He  now  hoped  that  some  gentleman, 
who  was  friendly  to  the  change,  would  present  to  the  Committee  his  views. 

After  a  short  pause, 

Mr.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  said,  that  he  did  hope  that  the  friends  of  the  proposition 
reported  by  the  Legislative  Committee,  would  assign  their  reasons  in  support  of  a 
plan  which  proposes,  in  effect,  to  put  the  power  of  controlling  the  wealth  of  the  State, 
into  hands  different  from  those  v,-hich  hold  that  wealth;  a  plan,  which  declares  that 
representation  shall  be  reofulated  by  one  ratio,  and  contribution  by  another  :  that  re- 
presentation shall  be  founded  on  the  white  popiilation  alone,  and  contribution  on  a 
ratio  double,  treble,  and  quadruple  in  proportion.  Pie  hoped  the  friends  of  these  new 
propositions,  new  at  least  in  our  State,  if  not  new  throughout  the  world,  would  give 
to  those  who  differed  from  themselves,  some  reasons  in  support  of  their  scheme  ;  some 
better  reasons  than  that  such  principles  were  unknown  to  our  English  ancestors, 
from  whom  we  have  derived  our  institutions ;  better  than  the  rights  of  man  as  held 
in  the  French  school;  better  than  that  they  were  calculated  in  their  nature  to  lead  to 
rapine,  anarchy  and  bloodshed,  and  in  the  end,  to  military  despotism  :  a  scheme,  which 
has  respect  to  numbers  alone,  and  considers  property  as  unworthy  of  regard.  Give 
us,  said  Mr.  L.  some  reasons ;  reasons  which  may  excuse  us  in  our  own  self-esteem, 
for  a  tame  submission  to  this  (in  my  opinion)  cruel,  palpable  and  crying  injustice.  Let 
us  have  at  least  some  plausible  reason  ;  something  which  has  at  least  tire  colour  of  rea- 
son, wliich  may  excuse  us  to  ourselves  :  something  which  may  gild  the  pill  and  dis- 
guise its  bitterness  :  something  to  save  us  from  the  contempt  of  this  present  time,  and 
the  assured  curse  of  posterity,  if  we  shall  betray  their  interest.  Give  us  something 
which  v,^e  may  at  least'call  reasons  for  it :  not  arithmetical  and  mathematical  reasons; 
no  mere  abstractions ;  but  referring  to  the  actual  state  of  things  as  they  are  ;  to  the 
circumstances  and  condition  of  this  Com.monwealth ;  why  we  must  submit  to  what 
I  cannot  help  regarding  as  the  most  crying  injustice  ever  attempted  in  any  land,  I 
call  upon  gentlemen  for  these  reasons. 
Mr.  Cooke  of  Frederick,  rose  in  reply. 


54 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  Cooke  said,  that  lie  could  not  but  express  his  unfeigned  astonishment,  that  the 
able  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  (Mr.  Leigh)  should  have  ventured  to  say  to  that 
assembly,  that  the  principle  of  representation  recommended  by  the  Legislative  Com- 
mittee, was  new  to  him,  and  new  in  the  history  of  the  world."  Can  the  gentleman 
have  forgotten,  (said  Mr.  Cooke.)  that  the  principle  which  he  treats  as  a  novelty,  and 
an  innovation,  is  asserted  in  the  "  Declaration  of  the  Rights  of  the  people  of  Virgi- 
nia.^" And  does  he  not  know,  that  when  the  Convention  of  1776  promulgated,  in 
that  instrument,  the  principles  of  Government  on  which  their  infant  Republic  was 
founded,  they  did  but  announce,  in  solemn  form,  to  the  people  of  Virginia,  principles 
which  had  received,  a  century  before,  the  deliberate  sanction  of  the  most  enlightened 
friends  of  liberty,  throughout  the  world 

Sir,  the  fathers  of  the  Revolution  did  but  reiterate  those  great  and  sacred  truths 
which  had  been  illustrated  by  the  genius  of  Locke,  and  Sydney,  and  Milton :  truths 
for  which  Hampden,  and  a  host  of  Ixis  compatriots,  had  poured  out  their  blood  in 
vain. 

Driven  from  Europe,  by  Kings,  and  Priests,  and  Nobles,  those  simple  truths  were 
received,  with  favour,  by  the  sturdy  yeomanry  who  dwelt  on  the  western  shores  of 
the  Atlantic.  The  love  of  liberty,  aye,  Sir,  and  of  equality  too,  grew  with  the  growth, 
and  strengthened  with  the  strength,  of  the  Colonies.  It  declared  war,  at  last,  not 
only  against  the  poicer  of  the  Kino-,  but  against  the  privilege  of  the  JYohle,  and  laid 
the  deep  foundations  of  our  Republic  on  the  sovereignty  of  the  people  and  the  equality  of 
men. 

The  sacred  instrument,  for  sacred  I  will  dare  to  call  it,  notwithstanding  the  sneers  - 
which  its  very  name  excites  in  this  assembly  of  Rejjuhlicans,  the  sacred  instrument  in 
which  those  great  principles  were  declared,  was  ushered  into  existence  under  circum- 
stances the  most  impressive  a,nd  solemn.    The  "Declaration  of  the  Rights  of  the  > 
people  of  Virginia,"  was  made  by  an  assembly  of  sages  and  patriots,  who  had  just  • 
involved  their  country  in  all  the  horrors  of  war,  in  all  the  dangers  of  an  unequal  con- 
test with  the  most  powerful  nation  on  earth,  for  the  sake  of  the  noble  and  elevated 
principles  which  that  instrument  announces  and  declares.    For  the  sake  of  those 
principles,  they  had  imperilled  their  lives,  their  fortunes,  their  wives,  their  children, 
their  country  ;  and,  in  one  word,  all  that  is  dear  to  man.    For  the  sake  of  those  prin- 
ciples, they  had  spread  havoc  and  desolation  over  their  native  land,  and  consigned  to 
ruin  and  poverty  a  whole  generation  of  the  people  of  Virginia. 

And  for  what  did  they  make  these  mighty  sacrifices  !  For  wild  "  abstractions,  and 
metaphysical  subtleties  !"  No,  Sir.  For  principles  of  eternal  truth  ;  as  practical,  in 
character,  as  they  are  vital,  in  importance ;  for  principles  deep-seated  in  the  nature  of 
man,  by  whose  development,  alone,  he  can  attain  the  happiness  which  is  the  great 
object  of  his  being.    Those  principles  are, 

"  That  all  power  is  vested  in,  and  consequently  derived  from,  the  people.'" 
"  That  all  men  are,  by  nature,  equally  free."  And 
That  a  majority  of  the  community''  possesses,  by  the  law  of  nature  and  neces- 
sity, a  right  to  control  its  concerns. 

These  are  the  principles  which  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  regards  as  "  wild 
and  visionary ;"  as abstractions  and  metaphysical  subtleties;"  and  which  are  con- 
temptuously styled  by  others,  who  think  with  him,  "  mere  abstract  principles."  Pass- 
ing by,  without  comment,  the  curious  fact,  tliat  these  "  abstract  principles"  received 
but  yesterday  the  sanction  of  an  unanimous  vote  of  this  body  (so  far,  at  least,  as  a 
nanine  contradicente  vote  can  be  called  unanimous)  :  passing  by  the  fact,  I  say,  that 
the  resolution  of  a  special  Committee  declaring  that  the  Bill  of  Rights  requires  no 
amendment,  was  but  yesterday  adopted,  without  a  dissenting  voice,  I  will  pause,  for  a 
moment,  to  enquire  what  these  gentlemen  mean  by  their  favourite  phrase,  "  mere  ab- 
stract principles .''"  If  I  rightly  apprehend  the  import  of  the  term  abstract,"  when 
applied,  in  a  disparaging  sense,  to  any  general  principle,  it  means  that  the  principle, 
though  true,  as  expressed,  is,  nevertheless,  expressed  in  terms  so  general,  that  when 
an  attempt  is  made  to  apply  it  to  any  given  subject,  it  is  almost  always  found  that 
the  subject  is  included,  not  within  the  principle  itself,  but  within  one  or  other  of 
those  exceptions,  which  detract  from  the  universal  correctness  of  all  general  princi-  - 
pies.  That  the  principle  is  an  unmeaning  generality,  and  scarcely  susceptible  of  ap- 
plication to  the  e very-day  business  of  men.  In  short,  that  it  is  wild,  visionary  and 
unpractical. 

Let  us  see,  then,  whether  the  principles  which  are  announced  by  the  Declaration 
of  Rights,  as  the  basis  and  foundation  of  Government,"  are  of  this  wild  and  vision- 
ary character.  Let  us  see  whether  they  do  not,  on  the  contraiy,  come  home  to  the 
"  business  and  bosoms  of  men." 

•  It  declares,  then,  in  the  first  place,  "  that  all  pov^^er  is  vested  in,  and  consequently  de- 
rived from,  fAepcopZe." 

Look  to  the  situation  and  circumstances  of  those  who  made  this  declaration,  to  the 
occasion  on  which  it  was  made,  and  to  its  bearing  and  operation  on  the  existing  insti- 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


55 


tutions  of  Virginia,  and  then  say  whether  it  was  not  a.  practical  principle,  and  one 
too,  of  great  pith  and  moment.  Tiie  colonies  had  long  been  smarting  under  the  ty- 
rannical exercise  of  power,  not  derived  from  the  people  :  Under  the  exercise  of  power 
assumed,  by  the  King  and  Parhamentof  Great  Britain,  tcithout  the  consent  of  thepeojjJe. 
Here,  then,  is  a  bold  denunciation  of  this  usurped  authority;  an  abolition  of  kingly 
power ;  a  declaration  that  thejJeopilc  of  Virginia  are  the  only  sovereigns  of  Virginia,  and 
that  they  would  tolerate,  in  all  tune  to  come,  neither  foreign  Parliaments,  nor  Kings, 
nor  Caesars.  A  declaration  tliat  the  only  legitimate  Government,  is  a  Government  of 
vutgistrates ,  deriving  their  power  from  the  people,  and  responsible  to  the  people. 

With  whatever  colour  of  plausibility  tliis  might  have  been  called  an  abstract  princi- 
ple, in  Europe,  in  tlie  time  of  Locke  and  Sydney,  who  first  maintained  and  supported 
it.  thanks  to  the  indomitable  spirit  of  our  ancestors,  it  became  practical  in  Virginia,  in 
1770  5  was  gallantly  sustained  through  all  the  vicissitudes  of  the  war,  and  received  the 
sanction  of  roj^alty  itself,  at  the  peace  which  ensued.  It  was  then  that  the  slavish 
doctrine  of  the  jus  dtvinum  of  Kings,  openly  supported,  but  a  century  before,  in  the 
country  from  whence  we  sprung,  received  its  practical  refutation  :  and  it  might  have 
been  hoped,  in  Virginia  at  least,  its  final  doom.  From  the  period  of  the  revolution 
till  the  meeting  of  this  Convention,  the  doctrine  "  that  all  povrer  is  vested  in,  and  con- 
sequently derived  from,  the  people,"  was  considered  a  great  practical  truth.  A'ow,  it 
is  an    abstract  principle,''  a  wild  and  visionary  speculation  ! 

But  again,  Sir.  I'he  Bill  of  Hights  declares,  that  all  men  are,  by  nature,  equally 
free."  And  tliis  is  considered  an  abstraction  par  excellence;  the  very  abstraction  of 
abstractions.  It  is  even  pronounced  to  be  absurd  on  the  face  of  it,"  because  it 
amounts,  as  it  is  said,  to  a  declaration,  that  '■'  all  men,  all  women,  and  all  children,  are 
entitled  to  an  equal  share  of  political  power." 

I  shall  briefly  examine  this  principle,  Sir,  in  connexion  with  that  which  stands  by 
its  side  in  the  Declaration  of  Rights,  which  is,  in  eftect,  that  the  sovereign  power,  the 
supreme  control  of  its  affairs,  is  vested  in  the  majority  of  every  free  community. 
And  I  hesitate  not  to  say,  that  taken  in  connexion,  and  they  must  be  taken  in  con- 
nexion, they  are  so  far  from  being  speculative  and  abstract  truths,  much  less  absurd 
speculations,  that  they  constitute  in  fact,  a  compendium  of  the  whole  law  of  rational 
and  practical  liberty,  and  were  peculiarly  appropriate  and  practical  in  tlieir  application 
to  the  actual  condition  of  Virginia.  Taking  first  the  insulated  proposition,  that  all 
men  are,  by  nature,  equally  free  ;"  I  pronounce  it  to  be  a  great  practical  truth  ;  a  self- 
evident  proposition;  the  primary  postulate  of  the  science  of  Government.  Sir,  what 
does  this  proposition  mean,  but  that  no  a?ie  man  is  born  with  a  natural  right  to  control 
any  other  man  ;  that  no  one  man  comes  into  the  world  with  a  mark  on  him,  to  desig- 
nate him  as  possessing  superior  rights  to  any  other  man;  that  neither  God  nor  nature 
recognize,  in  anticipation,  the  distinctions  of  bond  and  fi-ee,  of  despot  and  slave;  but 
that  these  distinctions  are  artificial ;  are  the  work  of  man  ;  are  the  result  of  fraud  or 
violence.    And  who  is  so  bold  as  to  deny  this  simple  truth 

But  is  it  a  mere  '^abstract''  truth.?  Was  it  not,  when  declared  by  the  authors  of 
the  Declaration  of  Rights,  replete  with  practical  meaning  ?  What  was  their  actual 
situation  ?  The  Government  of  England,  against  which  tiiis  principle  was  directed, 
was  incumbered  with  privileged  orders ;  there  was  the  King  v/ith  his  hereditary  pre- 
rogative, and  the  noble  with  his  hereditary  privilege.  The  colonists  had  found,  to 
their  cost,  in  the  earlier  stages  of  their  struggle,  that  prerogative  and  privilege,  de- 
rived  from  birth,  were  the  sworn  and  mortal  foes  of  liberty.  In  announcino-  and  re- 
instating the  original  equality  of  men,  they  declared  war  against  both,  and  from  that 
time,  neither  privilege  nor  prerogative  derived  from  birth,  have  been  tolerated  in  the 
Commonwealth  wliich  they  established.  And  is  there  nothing  practical  in  this Is 
tliis  a  mere  abstract  principle ;  a  mere    metaph^fcal  subtlety 

But  it  is  said,  that  if  it  be  true  that  ''all  men  are  by  nature  equally  free,"  then  all 
men,  all  women,  and  all  children,  are  entitled  to  equal  shares  of  pclitical  power;  in 
other  words,  that  they  are  all  entitled  to  the  right  of  suffrage,  which  is.  practically, 
political  power. 

Sir,  no  such  absurdity  can  be  inferred  from  the  language  of  the  Declaration  of 
Rights.  The  framers  of  that  instrument  did  not  undertake  to  write  dov/n  in  it  all  the 
rules  and  all  the  exceptions  wliich  constitute  political  law.  They  did  not  express  the 
self-evident  truth  that  the  Creator  of  the  Universe,  to  render  woman  more  fit  for  the 
sphere  in  which  He  intended  her  to  act,  had  made  her  weak  and  timid,  in  comparison 
with  man,  and  had  thus  placed  her  under  his  control,  as  well  as  under  his  protection. 
That  children,  also,  from  the  immaturity  of  their  bodies  and  their  minds,  were  imder 
a  like  control.  They  did  not  say,  in  terms,  that  the  exercise  of  pohtical  power,  that 
is  to  say,  of  the  right  of  suffrage,  necessarily  implies  free-agency  and  intellige?ice ; 
free-agency,  because  it  consists  in  election  or  chaice  between  different  men  and'differ- 
ent  measures  ;  and  intelligence,  because  on  a  judicious  choice  depends  the  very  safety 
and  existence  of  the  community.  That  nature  herself  had  therefore  pronounced,  on 
women  and  children,  a  sentence  of  incapacity  to  exercise  political  power.    They  did 


56 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


not  say  all  this ;  and  why  ?  Because  to  the  universal  sense  of  all  mankind,  these 
were  self-evident  truths.  They  meant,  therefore,  this,  and  no  more  :  that  all  the, 
members  of  a  comaninity,  of  mature  reason,  and  free  agents  by  situation,  are  origi- 
nally and  by  nature,  cquatly  entitled  to  the  exercise  of  political  power,  or  a  voice  m 
the  Government. 

But  at  the  same  time  that  they  recognized  and  expressed  the  general  principle,  the 
general  right,  they  recognized  and  c?cprcssed  a  limitation  of  that  general  right  imposed 
by  nature  and  necessity.  In  affirming  and  declaring  the  jus  majoris  to  be  the  law  of 
all  free  communities,  they  did  but  declare  the  simple  and  obvious  truth,  that  the  es- 
sential character  of  a  free  Government,  of  a  Government  whose  movements  are  re- 
gulated by  numbers,  involves  the  necessity  of  a  submission  by  the  minority  to  the 
majority.  For  the  right  of  deliberation  and  election  necessarily  involves  some  decision 
between  the  men  or  the  measures  which  are  the  subject  of  deliberation  and  election. 
All  deliberation  must  come  to  a  close,  and  every  exercise  of  the  right  of  election  must 
terminate  in  a  choice.  To  bring  deliberation  to  some  close,  and  election  to  some  choice, 
it  must  of  necessity  be  adopted-  as  a  rule,  either  that  the  majority  or  the  minority 
must  put  an  end  to  the  deliberation,  by  pronouncing  a  decision:  And  the  necessity 
of  adopting  the  rule  that  the  majority  shall  so  pronounce,  is  founded  on  the  necessity 
of  a  sanction  to  every  law,  on  the  fact  that  the  majority  possesses,  in  its  superior  phy- 
sical force,  tliat  sanction,  and  on  the  certainty  that  it  would  not  permanently  submit 
to  the  opposite  regulation.  I  say,  -permanently  :  Because,  though  the  majority  may 
be  deluded  for  a  time,  by  the  artificial  and  vicious  institutions  of  society,  into  a  sub- 
mission to  the  voice  of  the  minority,  they  will  arise,  at  last,  and  assert  and  enforce 
their  natural  superiority. 

Neither  did  the  framers  of  the  Declaration  of  Rights  carry  out  the  jus  majoris  into 
certain  other  plain  and  obvious  results  :  for  they  were  not  writing  a  treatise  on  politi- 
cal law,  but  merely  announcing,  in  a  brief  and  compendious  form,  its  leading  princi- 
ples. They  declared,  for  example,  that  the  majority  of  every  community  has  a  right 
to  adopt  such  a  form  of  Government,  and  such  a  fundamental  law,  as  to  them  seems; 
best.  They  left  unexpressed  the  plain  and  obvious  propositions,  that  in  forming  that 
fundamental  law,  the  majority  have  a  right  to  act,  and  ought  to  act,  on  the  principles,  . 
that  the  safety  of  the  people  is  the  supreme  law ;  that  the  legitimate  object  of  all  Go- 
vernment, is  to  promote  the  greatest  happiness  of  the  greatest  number  ;  and  that  the 
perfect  and  entire  protection  of  life,  property,  and  personal  liberty,  constitutes  the  es- 
sential basis  of  the  greatest  happiness  of  the  greatest  number.  That  to  effect  these 
essential  objects,  the  anajority  have  a  perfect  right  to  prescribe,  by  a  fundamental  law, 
still  further  limitations  to  the  universality  of  the  right  of  suffrage.  That  they  have 
a  right  to  exclude,  and  ought  to  exclude,  by  their  fundamental  law,  from  the  exercise 
of  the  right  of  suffrage,  all  those,  who  in  the  honest  and  deliberate  opinion  of  the  ma- 
jority, cannot  safehy  be  entrusted  with  the  exercise  of  it ;  or  in  other  vv^ords,  all  those 
whose  exercise  of  this  right  would  be,  in  the  honest  and  deliberate  opinion  of  the 
majority,  incompatible  with  the  safety  and  well-being  of  the  community,  which  is  the 
supreme  law.  They  did  not  set  down,  in  express  terms,  all  these  distinct  and  con- 
secutive propositions.  But  they  did  state  the  result  to  which  they  lead,  when  they 
said,  in  effect,  that,  in  a  well  regulated  community,  those  alone  should  be  permitted 
to  exercise,  the  right  of  suffrage,  who  have  a  permanent  common  interest  with,  and 
attachment  to,  the  community." 

I  say,  then,  Sir,  with  a  confidence  inspired  by  a  deep  conviction  of  the  truth  of  what 
I  advance,  that  the  principles  of  the  sovereio-nty  of  the  people,  the  equality  of  men,  and 
the  right  of  the  majority,  set  forth  in  the  "  Declaration  of  the  Rights  of  the  people  of 
Virginia,"  so  far  from  being  '■'  wild  and  visionary,"  so  far  fromJjeing  "  abstractions  and 
metaphysical  subtleties,"  are  the  v&i^  principles  which  alone  give  a  distinctive  cha- 
racter to  our  institutions,  are  the  principles  which  have  had  the  practical  effect  in 
Virginia,  of  abolishing  kingly  poiocr,  and  aristocratic  privilege,  substituting  for  *hem 
an  elective  magistracy,  deriving  their  power /rom  the  people,  and  responsible  to  the 
people. 

But  it  has  been  said  that  the  authors  of  the  Declaration  of  Rights  themselves,  ad- 
mitted, in  effect,  the  abstract  and  wipraciicaZ  character  of  the  principles  which  it  con- 
tains, by  establishing  a  Government  whose  practical  regulations  are  wholly  inconsis- 
tent with  those  theoretical  principles.  That  while,  in  the  Declaration  of  Right^, 
they  asserted  that  all  power  is  vested  in  the  people,  and  should  be  exercised  by  a  ma- 
jority of  the  people,  they  established  a  Government  in  v/hich  unequal  counties,  ex- 
pressing their  sense  by  the  representatives  of  a  selected  f civ  in  those  counties,  to  wit, 
the  freeholders,  were  the  real-  political  units,  or  essential  elements  of  political  power. 
That  the  right  of  the  majority,  in  this  frame  of  Government,  Avas  violated  in  two  dif- 
ferent modes  :  First,  by  vesting  the  power,  within  each  county,  in  the  freeholders, 
who  are  a  minority  of  the  people  ;  and  next  by  investing  small  masses  of  people  in 
the  small  counties,  and  large  masses  in  the  large  counties,  with  equal  power  in  the 
Government, 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


57 


Sir,  the  argument  would  be  a  good  one  if  the  premises  which  support  it  were  cor- 
rect. But  it  is  iiot  true  that  the  authors  of  the  Declaration  of  Rights  estaUished  the 
anomalous  Government  mader  which  we  have  hved  these  fifty  years  and  more. 
There  can  be  no  grosser  error  than  to  suppose  that  the  Constitution  of  Virginia  was 
formed  in  1776.  Its  two  great  distinctive  features,  the  sectional,  and  the  aristocratic 
had  been  given  to  it  a  century  before.  The  equal  representation  of  the  counties,  which 
was  the  remote  cause  of  its  sectional  character,  was  established,  in  1661,  by  a  General 
Assembly  representing  a  population  residing  exclusively  in  the  tide-water  country, 
and  consequently,  at  that  time,  liomogeneous  in  character  and  identical  in  interest. 
The  limitation  of  suffrage  to  frceJwlders  which  gave  to  it  an  aristocratic  character,  was 
imposed  on  the  Colony  in  1677,  without  any  act  of  Assembly,  by  a  letter  of  instruc- 
tions from  the  King  of  England  to  his  Governor  in  Virginia,  backed  and  enforced  by 
two  regiments  of  British  soldiers,  who  had  been  sent  to  the  Colony  for  the  express 
purpose  of  suppressing  a  popular  insurrection.  At  the  sera  of  the  revolution,  then, 
these  two  provisions  had  been  the  constitutional  law  of  the  Colony  for  more  than  one 
hundred  years.  The  freeholders  had  learned  to  pride  themselves  on  their  superior 
power  and  privileges,  and  the  smaller  counties  on  their  equality  with  the  larger.  The 
body  of  the  people  were  reconciled  by  habit  to  their  actual  condition. 

What,  then,  was  the  situation  in  which  the  framers  of  the  Constitution  were  placed  ? — 
While  they  framed  that  instrmnent  they  were  almost  \\-ithin  hearing  of  the  thunder  of 
hostile  cannon.  The  invader  was  at  the  doer.  They  were  in  continual  danger  of 
being  driven  from  the  very  hall  of  legislation  by  the  bayonets  of  the  enemy.  The 
whole  undivided  physical  force  of  the  country  was  barely  sufficient  to  defend  it  against 
the  superior  force  of  a  foreign  enemy.  It  was  utterly  impossible,  under  such  circum- 
stances, to  pull  down,  and  erect  anew,  the  whole  fabric  of  Government.  And  it 
would  have  been  to  the  last  degree  unwise  and  impolitic,  at  such  a  fearful  crisis,  to 
distract  the  minds  of  the  people  by  attempting  a  new  distribution  and  arrangement  of 
political  power.  It  would  have  been  the  very  height  of  folly,  at  such  a  crisis,  to  create 
disaffection  in  the  minds  of  the  freeholders,  by  stripping  them  of  their  exclusive 
powers,  and  to  exasperate  the  smaller  counties  by  degrading  them  from  the  rank 
which  they  had  held  under  the  royal  Government.  In  leaving  the  freeholders  and 
the  counties  as  they  found  them,  the  framers  of  the  Constitution  bowed  to  the  supreme 
law  of  necessity,  and  acted  like  wise  and  practical  statesmen.  Weak  and  mistable, 
then,  is  the  argument  which  infers  the  impractical  character  of  the  principles  con- 
tained in  the  Declaration  of  Rights  from  the  inconsistency  of  the  actual  Government 
formed,  with  those  principles.  The  very  language  resorted  to  in  disposing  of  a  sub- 
ject of  such  vital  importance  as  tire  regulation  of  the  right  of  suffrage,  the  brief  and 
summary  way  in  which  it  is  disposed  of,  would  shew,  in  the  absence  of  all  other 
evidence,  that  it  was  a  subject  which  the  framers  of  the  Constitution  scarcely  dared 
to  touch. — •'•  The  right  of  suffrage  shall  remain  as  at  present  exercised." 

No,  Sir,  it  was  not  reserved  for  tms  to  discover  the  inconsistency  between  their  theo- 
retical principles,  and  their  practical  regulations.  They  saw  it  themselves,  and  de- 
plored it.  In  the  very  heat  of  the  war  which  was  waged  for  these  abstractions'' — in 
the  hurh'-burly  of  the  conflict,  one  statesman,  at  least,  was  found,  to  point  out  those 
inconsistencies,  and  to  urge  home  on  the  people  of  Virginia  the  new  and  unheard 
of"  principle,  that  in  the  apportionment  of  representation,  regard  should  be  had  to 
the  white  population  only.  As  early  as  1781,  Mr.  Jefferson  exhorted  the  people  of 
Virginia,  in  the  most  earnest  and  impressive  language,  to  reduce  the  principle  to 
practice,  --so  soon  as  leisure  should  be  afforded  them,  for  intrenching,  within  good 
forms,  the  rights  for  which  they  had  bled." 

From  that'^time  to  this,  the  spirit  of  reform,  has  never  slept.  From  that  time  to  this, 
the  friends  of  liberty  have  continually  lifted  up  their  voices  against  the  inequality  and 
injustice  of  our  system  of  Government.  Incessantly  baffled  and  defeated,  they  have 
not  abandoned  their  purpose  ;  and  afler  a  struggle  of  fifty  years,  that  purpose  seems 
at  length  on  the  eve  of  accomplishment.  The  Represematiyes  of  the  people  of  Vir- 
ginia have  at  length  assembled  in  Convention,  to  revise  the  Constitution  of  the  State. 
A  special  committee  of  this  Convention  has  recommended,  among  other  measures  of 
reform,  the  adoption  of  a  resolution, 

"  That  in  the  apportionment  of  representation,  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  regard 
should  be  had  to  white  population  exclusively." 

It  is  this  resolution  which  has  called  forth  the  denunciations  of  the  gentleman  from 
Chesterfield.  It  is  this  proposition,  ■•  new  in  the  history  of  our  Government,  if  not 
throughout  the  world  ;  new  certainly  to  him,"  which  he  calls  on  us  to  support. 

Sir,  I  have  ventured  to  assert,  in  the  commencement  of  the  remarks  which  I  have 
had  the  honour  to  address  to  tlie  Committee,  that  this  proposition,  so  far  from  being 

new  andunheard  of,"  is  but  a  reiteration,  a  practical  enforcement,  of  tlrose  principles 
of  political  law  which  were  solemnly  announced  by  the  fathers  of  the  revolution,  in 
that  noble  paper,  the  >'  Declaration  of  the  Rights  of  the  people  of  Virginia,  which 


8 


58 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


rights  do  pertain  to  them  anJ  their  posterity,  as  the  basis  and  foundation  of  Govern- 
iiient."    1  proceed  to  redeem  the  pledge. 

The  Bill  of  Ptio-hts  declares,  that  the  jjeople  are  the  only  legitimate  source  and  foun- 
tain of  political  power. — The  resolution  of  the  Committee  affirms  this  doctrine,  by 
proposing,  that  in  apportioning  representation,  or  political  power,  regard  shall  be  had 
to  the  pcup!a  exclusively.  Not  to  wealth,  not  to  overgrown  sectional  interests,  not  to 
tlie  supj)osed  rights  of  the  coujities ;  but  to  the  white  population ;  to  the  people  only. 

The  Bill  of  Rights  asserts  the  political  equality  of  the  citizens. — The  resolution  pro- 
poses to  give  to  that  principle  a  practical  existence  in  our*Government,  by  abolishing 
the  inveterate  abuse  of  the  equcd  representation  of  unequal  counties,  and  equalizing, 
as  nearly  as  may  be,  the  electoral  districts  throughout  the  Commonwealth,  on  the  basis 
of  free  white  population  alone. 

Tlie  Bill  of  Rights  pronounces  the  jus  major  is  to  be  the  law  of  all  free  communities, 
by  attributing  to  the  majority  of  a  corhmunity,  the  power  to  reform,  alter  or  abolish, 
at  its  will  and  pleasure,  the  very  Government  itself,  and  Consequently  the  lesser  pow- 
er of  deciding,  without  appeal,  in  all  matters  of  ordinary  legislation. — The  resolu- 
tion proposes  to  give  practical  effect  to  the  jus  majoris,  by  making  each  Delegate  the, 
representative  of  an  equal  number  of  the  people,  so  that  the  voice  of  a  majority  of  the 
Delegates,  will  be  the  voice  of  a  majr)rity  of  the  people.  It  proposes,  in  short,  to 
establish  that  beautiful  harmony  between  our  theoretical  principles  and  our  practical 
regulations;  the  want  of  which,  has  been,  for  fifty  years,  the  reproach  of  Virginia. 

The  resolution  of  the  Committee,  then,  proposes  no  new  and  unheard  of  scheme ; 
no  innovation  on  the  established  principles  of  our  Government.  It  calls  on  you  to 
listen  to  the  warning  voice  of  the  fathers  of  the  revolution,  who,  in  this  despised  de-' 
claration,"  have  told  you,  that  no  free  Government,  or  the  blessings  of  liberty,  can 
be  preserved  to  any  people,  but  by  a  frequent  recurrence  to  fundamental  principles." 

But  the  accordance  of  the  resolution  with  these  great  fundamental  principles,  has 
not  obLained  for  it,  the  approbation  of  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  (Judge  Green.) 
He  proposes  to  amend  it  by  striking  out  the  word  "  exclusively,"  and  addmg  the  words 
and  taxation  combined;"  so  that  the  resolution,  as  amended,  would  be. 

That  in  the  apportionment  of  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  regard 
should  be  had  to  white  papulation  and  taxation  combined.'" 

It  wili  be  perceived,  at  once,  that  the  object  of  this  amendment,  is  to  substitute  for 
the  principle  of  representation  contained  in  the  resolution  of  the  Committee,  one  of  a 
totally  new  and  different  character.  It  proposes  a  mixed  or  compound  basis  of  re- 
presentation, the  elements  of  which  are  property  and  people,  in  lieu  of  the  simple  basis 
of  people  only.  For  the  total  amount  of  taxation  does,  and  must,  bear  a  just  propor- 
tion to  the  total  amount  of  property,  the  possession  of  which  constitutes  the  ability  to 
pay.  The  direct  tendency,  then,  of  this  amendment,  is  to  give  political  power  to  the 
wealthy  in  proportion  to  their  wealth,  and  to  inflict  political  insignificance  on  the  poor 
in  proportion  to  their  poverty.  To  confer  on  an  electoral  district,  containing  few 
electors  but  great  wealth,  equal  power  with  another  district  containing  many  electors 
but  little  wealth.  To  give  to  th.Q  few,  who  are  rich,  a  control  over  the  many  who  are 
poor.  So  that  if  Stephen  Girard,  the  great  millionaire  of  the  north,  were  to  become 
a  citizen  of  Virginia,  and  fiscal  ingenuity  could  reach  his  abounding  wealth,  the  di- 
rect or  apparent  operation  of  this  amendment,  would  be  to  augment  incalculably,  the 
political  power  of  the  county  he  sht)uld  select  as  his  residence,  while  its  real  effect 
would  probably,  if  not  certainly,  be,  to  confer  all  the  accumulated  mass  of  power,  thus 
artificially  produced,  on  Stephen  Girard  himself  If  Richmond,  in  the  vicissitud-es  of 
human  affairs,  should  chance  at  a  future  day,  to  attain  the  opulence  which  is  even 
now  possessed  by  the  commercial  metropohs  of  the  Union,  the  operation  of  the 
amendment  would  be,  to  give  it  uncontrolled  power  over  the  legislation  of  the  Com- 
monwealth. , 

But,  Sir,  without  commenting  further  on  the  practical  operation  of  the  proposed 
amendment,  let  us  apply  to  it  the  same  test  to  which  we  have  subjected  the  resolution 
of  the  Committee.  Does  itaccord  v/ith  the  principles  of  the  Declaration  of  Rights;" 
with  the  principles  to  which  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  in  common  with  us  all, 
has  given,,  but  j^esterday,  the  sanction  of  his  approving  vote 

If  win  be  perceived,  on  the  slightest  examination,  that  it  violates,  not  one  only  of 
those  principles,  which  I  have  mentioned,  but  erery  one. 

1.  It  repudiates  the  doctrine  that  the  people  are  the  only  legitimate  source  and  foun- 
tam  of  political  power,  and  that  all  power  is  derived  from  the  people,"  and  makes 
property  one  of  the  sources  of  power,  and  declares  it  to  be  derived,  in  part,/ro7re  pro- 
perty. 

2.  It  denies  the  correctness  of  the  principle,  that  all  the  electors  in  the  Common-, 
wealth  are  equal  in  political  rights,  by  conferring  on  a  small  number  of  wealthy  elec- 
tors, congregated  in  one  electoral  district,  the  same  power  that  it  confers  on  a  large 
number  of  poor  electors,  congregated  in  another  electoral  district. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


59 


3.  It  subrerts  the  jiis  majQris,  the  tliird  great  pmaciple  alluded  to,  and  which  is,  in 
fact,  but  a  corollary  from  the  first,  that  the  sovereignty  is  vested  in  the  body  of  the 
people,  and  substitutes  for  it  the  control  of  the  vrealtliy  few;  or  in  other  words,  the 
most  odious,  pernicious  and  despicable  of  all  aristocracies — an  aristocracy  of  wealth. 

And  for  what  purpose,  I  pray  you,  are  we  thus  to  dilapidate  the  very  foundations 
of  our  free  institutions  ? — For  what  purpose  are  we  to  make  this  retrograde  move- 
ment in  the  science  of  Government,  and  in  llie  practicaJ  institutions  of  our  country, 
which  should  rather  keep  pace  with  the  improvements  of  that  science,  and  the  march-  - 
of  intellect  ? — While  human  liberty  is  maldng  a  progress,  which,  though  slow,  is  yet 
certain,  even  in  countries  where  the  jus  divinum  of  Kings  is  still  the  prevailing  doc- 
trine, why  should  we  alone  run  counter  to  the  spirit  of  the  age,-and  disavow  and  re- 
pudiate the  doctrines  consecrated  by  the  blood  of  our  fathers  ? — While  most  of  the 
old,  and  all  the  new  Repubhcs  of  tliis  extensive  confederacy,  are  carrying  out  the 
principle  of  the  sovereignty  of  the  people  to  its  full  extent,  why  should  we  alone, 
seek  to  narrow,  and  limit,  and  restrain  its  operation? — What  mighty  good  is  to  be  at- 
tained by  this  abandonment  of  the  principles  of  the  revolution  r 

The  members  of  this  Committee,  in  general,  are  left  to  imagine  the  objects  and 
views  of  tlie  learned  and  distinguished  gentleman  who  has  proposed  the  amendment 
in  question.  For  though  parliamentary  usage,  so  far  as  I  understand  it,  imposed  upon 
him  the  task  of  developing  the  principles  of  his  amendment,  and  though  we  were  re- 
gularly notified  yesterday,  in  the  manner  in  which  such  notices  are  usually  given, 
that  he  would  proceed,  to-day,  to  the  performance  of  that  duty,  he  has  pursued  a  dif- 
ferent course,  and  the  fi-iends  of  the  resolution  reported  by  the  Select  Connnittee, 
have  been  invi'ed,  or  rather  challenged,  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  to  com- 
mence the  discussion. 

Having  been  myself  a  member  of  that  Committee,  however,  and  having  heard  the 
arguments  by  which  the  same  amendment  was  there  sustained,  I  will  endeavor  to 
perform  the  duty  of  the  mover  by  stating,  and  my  own  by  answering  them. 

It  is  alleged,  tlien.  Sir,  *hat  the  principles  of  Gove:P.meut  contained  in  the  Decla- 
ration of  Rights,  I  mean  those  elevated  and  elevating  principles  which,  in  an  assem- 
bly of  Virginia  Statesmen,  I  have  tliis  day  been  compelled  to  defend,  are  little  better 
than  mere  abstractions.  That  whether  they  are  correct  or  not,  as  •'•  abstract  princi- 
ples," there  is  a  great  practical  principle,  wholly  overlooked  in  the  resolution  of  the 
Select  Committee,  of  vital  and  paramonnt  importance.  The  principle  in  question, 
and  the  argument  by  which  it  is  sustained,  when  broadly  and  fairly  developed,  amount 
to  this :  '  - 

1.  That  the  secxirity  of  property  is  one  of  the  most  essential  elements  of  the  pros- 
perity and  happiness  of  a  community,  and  should  be  sedulously  provided  for  by  its 
institutions. 

2.  That  men  naturally  love  property,  and  the  comforts  and  advantages  it  will  pur- 
chase. 

3.  That  this  love  of  wealth  is  so  strong,  that  the  poor  are  the  natural  enemies  of 
the  rick,  and  feel  a  strong  and  habitual  inclination  to  strip  them  of  their  wealth,  or,  at 
least,  to  throw  on  them  alone  all  the  burthens  of  society. 

4.  That  the  poor,  being  more  numerous  in  every  community  than  all  the  classes 
above  them,  would  have^tlie  poiccr.  as  well  as  the  inclination,  thus  to  oppress  the 
rich,  if  admitted  to  an  equal  participation  with  them  in  political  power  ;  and 

5.  That  it  is  therefore  necessary  to  restrain,  limit  and  dimiinish  the  power  of  this  ^ 
natural  majority;  of  this, many-headed  and  hungry  monster,  the  many,  by  some  arti- 
ficial regulation  in  the  Constitution,  or  fundamental  law,  of  every  community.  And 

if  this  be  not  done,  either  directly,  by  limitations  on  the  right  of  suffrage,  or  indirect- 
ly, by  some  artificial  distribution  of  political  power,  in  the  apportionment  of  represen- 
tation, like  that  contained  in  the  amendment,  property  will  be  invaded,  all  the  multi- 
plied evils  of  anai-chy  will  ensue,  till  the  society,  groaning  under  the  joke  of  unbri- 
dled democracy,  will  be  driven  to  prefer  to  its  stormy  sway,  the  despotic  Govern- 
ment of  a  single  master.  And  tliis  is  said  to  be  tlie  natural  death  of  the  Government 
of  numbers. 

Sir,  if  this  statement  of  the  argimientbe  a  little  over-coloured  by  imputing  to  those 
who  advance  it  epithets  which  tliey  are  too  .prudent  to  use,  it  is  nevertheless,  like  all 
good  caricatures,  a  striking  likeness. 

To  tliis  argument  I  answer  that,  like  most  unsound  arguments,  it  is  founded  on  a 
bold  assumption  of  folse  premises.  It-is  fotmded  on  the  assumption  that  men  are,  by 
nature,  robbers,  and  are  restrained  from  incessant  invasions  of  the  rights  of  each 
other,  only  by  fear  or  coercion.  But,  is  this  a  just  picture  of  that  compound  crea- 
ture man  ?  Sir,  I  conceive  it  to  be  a  hbel  on  the  race,  disproved  by  every  page  of  its 
history.  If  you  vAW  look  tliere  you  ^^411  find  tliat  man,  though  sometimes  driven  by 
stormy  passions  to  the  comixussion  of  atrocious  crimes,  is  by  natme  and  habit  neither 
a  wolf  nor  a  tiger.  That  he  is  an  affcctiwiate,  a  social,  a  patriotic,  a  cmscicntious  and 
a  religious  creature.    In  him,  alone,  of  all  animals,  has  nature  implanted  the  feeling 


60 


DEBATES  -OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


of  affection  for  'his  kindred,  after  the  attainment  of  maturity.  This  alone  is  a  restraint 
on  tii8  excess  of  his  natural  desire  for  property  as  extensive  as  the  ties  of  blood  that 
bind  him  to  his  fellow  man.  Designing,  moreover,  that  man  shall  live  in  communi- 
ties, where  alone  he  can  exist,  nature  has  given  to  him  the  social  feeling  ;  the  feeling 
of  attachment  to  those  around  him.  Intending  that  for  the  more  perfect  development 
of  his  high  faculties,  and  for  the  attainment  of  the  greatest  degree  of  comfort  and 
happiness  of  which  he  is  susceptible,  man  should  associate  in  nations,  she  implanted 
in  him  a  feeling,  the  glorious  displays  of  which  have  shed  lustre  around  so  many  pa- 
ges of  his  history.  I  mean  the  love  of  country  or  patriotism.  Designing  that  he 
should  attain  to  happiness  through  the  practice  of  virtue,  and  in  that  way  only,  she 
erected  in  each  man's  bosom  the  tribunal  of  conscience,  which  passes  in  review  all  the 
actions  of  the  individual,  and  pronounces  sentence  of  condemnation  on  every  manifest 
deviation  from  moral  rectitude.  To  add  sanctions  to  the  decisions  of  conscience,  she 
also  implanted  in  his  bosom  an  intuitive  belief  in  the  existence  of  an  intelligence 
governing  the  world,  who  would  reward  virtue  and  punish  vice  in  a  future  state  of 
being.  Man  is  therefore,  by  nature  a  religious  creature,  whose  conduct  is  more  or 
less  regulated  by  the  love  or  fear  of  the  unknown  governor  of  the  Universe.  Above 
all,  the  light  of  revealed  religion  has  shone  for  ages  on  the  world,  and  that  Divine 
system  of  morals  which  commands  us  "to  do  unto  others  as  we  would  have  them  do 
unto  us,"  has  shed  its  benign  influence  on  the  hearts  of  countless  thousands,  of  the 
high  and  the  low,  the  wise  and  the  foolish,  the  rich  and  the  poor.  But  we  are  asked 
to  believe  that  all  these  natural  feelings,  all  these  social  affections,  all  these  monitions 
of  conscience,  all  these  religious  impressions,  all  these  Christian  charities,  all  these 
hopes  of  future  rewards  and  fears  of  future  punishments,  are  dead,  and  silent,  and 
inoperative  in  the  bosom  of  man.  The  love  of  property  is  the  great  engrossing  pas- 
sion which  swallows  up  all  other  passions,  and  feelings,  and  principles ;  and  this  not 
in  particular  cases  only,  but  in  all  men.  The  poor  man  is  fatally  and  inevitably  the 
enemy  of  the  rich,  and  will  wage  a  war  of  rapine  against  him,  if  once  let  loose  from 
the  restraints  of  the  fundamental  law.  A  doctrine  monstrous,  hateful  and  incre- 
dible ! 

But,  Sir ,  if  I  were  even  to  admit,  for  a  moment,  the  truth  of  the  revolting  propositionthat 
the  desire  for  property  swallows  up  all  the  other  feelings  of  man,  does  it  follow  that  the 
aspirants  after  the  enjoyments  that  property  confers,  will  seek  to  attain  their  object  in 
the  manner  which  the  argument  in  question  supposes  ?  If  it  be  contended  that  man  is 
a  greedy  and  avaricious,  it  will,  still,  not  be  denied,  that  he  is  a  reasoning  and  calcu- 
lating, animal.  When  he  desires  to  attain  property  it  is  in  order  that  he  may  possess 
and  enjoy  it.  But  if  he  join  in  estabhshing  the  rule  that  the  right  of  the  strongest  is 
the  best  right,  what  security  has  he  that  he,  in  his  turn,  will  not  soon  be  deprived  of 
his  property  by  some  one  stronger  than  himself.?  Sir,  the  very  desire  for  property  im- 
plies the  desire  to  possess  it  securely.  And  he  who  has  a  strong  desire  to  possess  it, 
and  a  high  relish,  in  anticipation,  of  the  pleasure  of  enjoying  it  securely,  will  be  a 
firm  supporter  of  the  laws  which  secure  that  possession,  and  a  decided  enemy  to  every 
systematic  invasion  of  the  rule  of  meum  and  tuum.  In  other  words,  man  is  saga- 
cious enough  to  know  that  as  a  general  and  public  rule  of  action,  the  maxim  that  ho- 
nesty is  the  best  policy,  is  the  safest  and  best  maxim.  And  when  he  deviates  from 
that  rule  he  always  hopes  that  the  violation  will  go  undiscovered,  or  otherwise  es- 
cape punishment.  So  true  is  this,  that  I  am  persuaded  that  if  a  nation  could  be 
found  consisting  exclusively  of  rogues  and  swindlers,  there  would  not  be  found  in  the 
legislative  code  of  that  nation  a  systematic  invasion  of  the  right  of  property,  such  as 
the  argument  for  the  proposed  amendment  apprehends  and  seeks  to  provide  against. 

Communities  of  men  are  sagacious  enough  to  know  and  follov/  their  real  interest. 
And,  Sir,  I  do  not,  and  cannot  believe  that  it  is,  or  ever  was  the  real  interest  of  any 
class  in  the  community,  or  of  any  community  to  commit  gross  and  flagrant  abuses  of 
power,  to  disregard  the  monitions  of  conscience,  to  break  down  the  barriers  and 
obliterate  the  distinctions  between  right  and  wrong,  and  thus  to  involve  society  in  all 
the  horrors  of  anarchy.  The  principles  of  justice  are  the  foundation  of  the  social 
fabric,  and  rash  and  foolish  is  he  and  blind  to  his  true  interest,  who  undermines  the 
foundation  and  tumbles  the  fabric  in  ruins. 

Thus  far  I  have  reasoned  a  priori.  3ut  what  are  the  lessons  which  history  and 
experience  teach  us,  in  pursuing  this  enquiry  ? — We  need  not  go  far  for  examples. 
Let  us  look  at  the  experience  of  our  good  old  Commonwealth  of  Virginia.  From  the 
foundation  of  the  Commonwealth  the  slave-holding  population  of  Virginia  has  held 
the  supreme  power  in  the  State.  From  the  foundation  of  the  Commonwealth  there 
has  existed  and  there  still  exists,  a  numerous  population  on  our  western  frontier,  who 
are  comparatively  destitute  of  slave-propertj',  and  whose  wealth  has  ever  consisted 
in  cattle  more  than  in  any  other  description  of  property.  Now  if  the  argument  of  those 
who  support  the  proposed  amendment  be  a  sound  one,  it  would  follow  that  as  it  is 
and  always  has  been  the  interest  (according  to  their  vie^vs  of  interest)  of  the  slave- 
holding  population  to  shift  from  themselves,  and  to  lay  on  others,  the  burthens  of 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


61 


Government,  they  would  impose  heavy  taxes  on  the  cattle,  the  property  of  the  help- 
less minority,  and  oppress  them  by  this  and  every  otlier  species  of  fiscal  exaction. 
And  yet  the  very  reverse  is  the  fact.  For  the  slave-holders,  invested  with  supreme 
power,  and  urged  to  its  exercise  by  their  interest,''  have  not  only  not  overtaxed  the 
cattle  of  their  western  brethren,  but  have,  in  fact,  imposed  on  them,  except  at  one 
period  of  danger  and  distress  from  foreign  war,  no  tax  at  all,  and  when  the  pressure 
ceased  the  law  imposing  the  tax  was  instantly  repealed.  And  why? — Because  they 
were  governed  by  the  principles  of  justice,  and  the  feelings  of  honour.  Because  they 
thought,  and  justly,  that  the  people  of  the  frontier,  burthened  as  they  were  with 
"  the  first  expenses  of  society,"  and  engaged  in  laying  the  very  foundations  of  the 
social  fabric,  could  ill  endure  the  additional  burthen  of  a  tax  on  their  flocks  and  herds. 
Because  the  non-slave-holders  of  the  west  were  at  their  mercy,  and  every  feeling  of 
honour  and  magnanimity  forbade  them  to  oppress  the  weak.  I  say,  then.  Sir,  that 
the  slave-holders  of  Virginia  have  shewn  by  their  conduct  in  this  particular  case,  the 
incorrectness  of  the  theory  which  supposes  man  to  be  habitually  governed  by  a  blind 
and  reckless  cupidity  -  by  the  sordid  feelings  alone  of  his  nature,  to  the  exclusion  of 
the  nobler. 

I  say,  then,  that  arguing  a  priori,  or  taking  for  our  guide  the  conduct  of  the  slave- 
holders of  Virginia,  we  are  led  to  the  conclusion,  that  the  property  of  the  wealthy 
would  not  be  imperrilled,  as  gentlemen  imagine,  by  entrusting  the  powers  of  Govern- 
ment to  numbers,  without  regard  to  their  wealth.  That  property  would  be  abundantly 
secure,  without  investing  its  holders  with  a  factitious  power,  derived  from  its  posses- 
sion. And  that  there  is  not  the  least  necessity  for  the  proposed  innovation  on  the 
great  principles  of  Government,  asserted  by  our  ancestors  at  the  aera  of  the  revolution. 

But  it  is  not  in  Virginia  alone,  that  we  see  evidences  of  the  futility  of  the  appre- 
hensions that  are  entertained  for  the  safety  of  property.  We  have  in  the  history  of 
our  Sister-Commonwealths,  a  rich  fund  of  experience  from  whence  we  can  draw  ar- 
guments to  illustrate  the  utter  futility  of  these  apprehensions.  In  fifteen  States  of  the 
Union,  representation  is  apportioned  according  to  numbers  alone,  and  wholly  without 
reference  to  property,  or  the  wealth  of  the  electors.  In  eight  of  these  States  citizen- 
ship is  the  sole  qualification  of  the  elector,  and  in  the  remaining  seven  the  payment 
of  any  tax,  either  local  or  general,  is  the  only  qualification  superadded.  The  numbers, 
the  needy  many,  have  had  the  supre.me  control  over  the  wealthy /eto,  in  some  of  those 
Stj,::es  for  forty  years,  in  some  thirty,  in  some  twenty,  in  some  ten,  and  in  some  five. 
And  what  has  been  the  practical  result Look  at  their  situation,  Sir,  and  look  aiours. 
Do  we  not  see  among  them  the  richest  and  most  prosperous  States  of  the  Union 
Has  a  single  instance  occurred  of  a  Legislative  invasion,  by  the  poor,  of  the  rights  of 
the  wealthy Not  one.  The  machine  of  Government  has  rolled  smoothly  on,  and 
property  has  been  found,  as  it  ever  will  be  found,  able  to  protect  itself,  without  consti- 
tutional barriers  in  the  shape  of  odious  ■privileges.  So  much  for  the  general  question, 
whether  property  is  endangered  by  leaving  the  people  in  possession  of  their  natural 
and  equal  rights. 

But  I  know,  Sir,  incidentally,  that  the  mover  of  this  amendment  entertains  the 
opinion,  that  the  case  of  Virginia  is,  from  peculiar  circumstances,  a  case  sui  geyieris. 
His  opinion  is  that  the  comparatively  non-slave-holding  population  of  Virginia,  must 
ere  long  constitute,  if  it  does  not  now  constitute,  a  decided  majority  of  the  people, 
and  that  majority  inhabiting  a  particular  section  of  the  State,  alienated  from  their  slave-  ♦ 
holding  fellow-citizens,  by  distance,  localities  and  dissimilar  views  on  questions  of  gene-  -  ^ 
ral  policy. — That  it  will  be,  or  v/hat  amounts  to  the  same  thing,  that  they  will  suppose 
it  to  be,  their  interest  to  lay  the  burthens  of  Government  almost  exclusively  on  the 
slave  property  of  their  eastern  brethren.  And  that  it  is,  therefore,  necessary  to  invest 
the  slave-holding  minority  with  factitious  power,  under  the  new  Constitution,  to  en- 
able it  to  protect  itself  against  the  injustice  and  oppression  of  the  comparatively  non- 
slave-holding  majority. 

Supposing  the  facts  which  I  have  just  stated  to  be  as  he  imagines  them  to  be,  I  do 
not  see  any  thing  in  the  case  stated,  which  takes  it  out  of  the  operation  of  the  prin- 
ciples of  security  which  I  have  supposed  to  exist  in  regard  to  property  in  general. 
He  2cill  not  contend  that  the  people  of  the  west  are  less  operated  on  by  the  princi- 
ple of  honor,  by  sentiments  of  justice,  and  by  a  sense  of  their  real  interests,  than  the 
people  of  the  east. — And  if  this  be  so,  his  fears  are  groundless.  For  the  people  of 
the  east,  under  similar  circumstances,  have  repelled  the  base  suggestions  of  a  sordid 
and  short-sighted  interest,  and  have  been  governed  by  nobler  and  more  enlarged 
views  of  expediency  and  right.  But,  Sir,  his  premises  fail  him. — Look  at  the  map 
of  Virginia,  and  at  the  tables  of  population  wliich  have  this  day  been  reported  by  the 
Auditor.  He  estimates  the  white  population  east  of  the  Blue  Ridge  of  mountains, 
at  362,745,  and  the  white  population  west  of  those  mountains  at  319,516.  The  peo- 
ple of  the  east  have,  therefore,  a  majority  of  43,229  over  those  of  the  west.  I  need 
scarcely,  Sir,  tell  this  assembly,  that  the  whole  white  population  east  of  the  Ridge  is 
a  slave-holding  population.    The  black  population  is  even  more  dense  along  the 


62 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


eastern  base  of  the  Ridge,  than  along  the  shore  of  the  Atlantic.  For  while  the  two 
senatorial  districts  bordering  on  the  ocean,  contained,  by  the  Census  of  1820,  one  of 
them  but  17,416,  and  the  other  but  18,3C3,  three  of  the  districts  along  the  eastern 
base  of  the  Ridge  contained,  one  of  them  27,417,  another  27,514,  and  tlie  third  30,621. 
Thus  you  perceive.  Sir,  that  the  slave  population  is  crowded  up' to  the  very  foot  of 
the  mountain.  But  tliis  is  not  all.  The  slave-holding  population  extends  beyond  the 
Ridge.  The  district  which  I  have  the  honor  in  part  to  represent,  contains  about 
12,01)0  slaves.  The  four  western  counties  of  Berkeley,  JeiFerson,  Frederick  and  Bo- 
tetourt contain  17,070.  They  are  therefore,  fairly  to  be  considered  as  slave-holding 
counties,  to  the  practical  intent  of  being  interested  in  exempting  slaves  from  undue 
ta.xation.  These  four  counties  are  estimated  to  contain, ^at  present,  a  white  popula- 
tion of  47,013.  Add  this  slave-holding  population,  west  of  the  mountain,  (to  say  no- 
thing of  other  western  counties  which  contain  slaves  to  the  amoimt  of  several  thou- 
sands more,)  to  the  slave-holding  population  east  of  the  mountains,  and  you  have  an 
aggregate  of  409,753.  The  comparatively  non-slave-holding  population  in  all  the  re- 
maining counties  of^  Virginia,  is  but  272,503.  There  is,  therefore,  a  majority  of 
slave-holding  population,  amounting  to  137,255. 

And  yet,  strange  to  tell,  an  apprehension  is  entertained,  that  if  representation  be 
cqualhj  apportioned  among  the  ^vliite  population,  slave  property  will  be  burthened  by 
unequal  and  oppressive  taxes  ! — If  the  resolution  of  the  Committee  be  adopted,  the 
slave-holding  population  will  possess,  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  a  majority  of  repre- 
sentatives in  the  proportion  of  409,758  to  272,503  ;  and  yet  a  fear  is  entertained,  that 
the  representatives  of  the  272,503  non -slave-holders  will  overtax  the  property  oJf  the 
409,758  slave-holders  !  And  to  avert  this  imminent  peril  and  flagrant  injustice,  you 
are  asked  to  invest  the  409,758  witli  factitious  Constilutionnl  power — to  destroy  the 
great  landmarks  of  natural  right,  established  at  the  Esra  of  the  revolution — to  repudi- 
ate all  the  principles  of  Government  whicli  have  been,  until  now.  held  sacred  and 
inviolable.  Such,  Sir,  is  the  argument  by  which  the  proposed  amendment  is  sup- 
ported. 

Mr.  Green  said,  it  was  with  extreme  diffidence  that  he  rose  to  state  his  sentiments 
in  support  of  the  amendment.  He  was  well  convinced  of  his  incapacity  to  do  justice 
to  the  argument;  but  being  urged  by  a  sense  of  duty,  he  should  make  the  effort 
even  though  he  might  sink  under  it.  The  Committee  were  now  apprised  of  what  was 
to  be  urged  as  the  foundation  of  the  claim  for  a  new  basis  of  representation  ;  t-'.-y 
liad  been  referred  to  the  principles  contained  in  the  Bill  of  Rights,  And  accordino-  to 
the  version  of  those  declarations  just  given  by  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  the°de-  ^ 
claration,  that  all  men  are  by  nature  equally  free,  amounted  to  a  declaration  that  every 
man  in  the  community  possesses,  and  ought  to  exercise,  equal  rights  with  every  other 
man.  And  this  was  very  true^  if  understood,  as  referring  only  to  natural  rights;  but 
it  was  not  true  if  applied,  as  the  geiitleman  would  wish  to  apply  it,  to  rights  of  a  poli- 
tical character.  On  the  contrary,  he  hoped  to  shew  that  the  Bill  of  Rights,  so  far  from 
holding  such  a  position,  was  explicitly  opposed  to  it.  The  meaning  of  the  declaration, 
as  he  understood,  was  this:  that  all  men  are  b}^  nature,  so  far  equally  free  as  that  none 
might  claim,  in  the  social  state,  a  natural  right  to  govern  others:  this  was  the  extent 
of  the  proposition  :  unless,  indeed,  they  claimed  to  govern  by  tiie  jus  majoris,  founded, 
as  the  gentleman  contended,  in  the  possession  of  physical  force.  To  him,  (Mr.  G.) 
'  however,  it  seemed  that  there  could  arise  no  right  from  mere  force.  The  gentleman 
from  Frederick  had  determined,  that  because  the  majority  possessed  the  physical  force, 
they  have,  of  course,  the  right  to  govern ':  but  he  thought  that  this  did  not  follow. 

Again,  the  gen+leman  had  reminded  the  Committee,,  that  the  Bill  of  Rights  declares 
that  all  power  resides  in  the  people.  This  was  perfectly  true  ;  but  it  did  not  follow 
that  the  possession  of  the  pov\^er  of  government  by  the  people,  gave  to  each  member 
of  the  body  politic  equal  weiglit  in  its  government.  Once  more ;  the  gentleman  had 
contended,  that  according  to  the  same  Bill  of  Rights,  a  majority  must  govern  in  all 
things,  and  were  of  right  entitled  to  supreme  control.  Such,  no  doubt,  would  have 
been  the  doctrine  of  the  Bill  of  Rights,  if  the  frainers  of  that  instrument  had  thought 
that  its  foundations  were  Laid  in  the  right  of  nature,  or  of  conquest;  and  would  have 
declared  that  to  be  the  best  Government  which  gives  the  most  perfect  effect  to  the  will 
of  the  majority.  Yet  they  do,  in  effect,  instead  of  affirming  this,  deny  it,  by  saying  that 
Government  being  instituted  for  the  security  of  the  people,  "  that  is  best,  which  is  capa- 
ble of  producing  the  greatest  degree  of  happiness  and  safety,  and  is  most  effectually  se- 
cured against  the  danger  of  mal-administration."  • 

The  affirmation  is  not  that  the  majority  shall  rule  by  absolute  power,  but  that  they 
may  establish  such  a  Government,  as  shall  produce  the  greatest  amount  of  happiness, 
and  as  shall  best  be  guarded  against  the  dangers  of  mal-administration.  I  admit,  said. 
Mr.  G.  that  in  a  community,  where  all  the  members  are  in  circumstances  of  equality 
as  to  fortune,  and  so  situated,  that  no  one  part  of  the  society  can  injure  the  residue,  with-  • 
out,  at  the  same  time,  inflicting  equal  injury  upon  themselves,  the  rule  that  the  nume- 
rical majority  shall  govern,  is  the  best ;  and  the  foundation  of  all  our  institutions,  is 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


63 


the  assumption,  that  the  people  know,  and  will  always  pursue  their  own  true  interest ; 
a;iid,  therefore,  that  a  majority  is  lik&ly  to  decide  rightly.  But,  it  is  equally  the  prin- 
ciple of  those  institutions,  that  the  majority  havea.n  interest  in  doing  what  is  right.  Un- 
less tliis  is  taiien  for  granted,  the  abstract  proposition  is  of  little  value.  Now,  I  ask  of 
gentlemen,  whether,  in  the  peculiar  situa.tion  of  Virginia,  circumstances  will  not  pre- 
sent a  strong  inducement  to  the  .  majority  to  opjiress  the  minority  for  their  own 
beneht  ?- 

lily  first  proposition  in  support  of  the  amendment  is  this :  that  it  is  perfectly 
certain  that  in  a  very  short  thne,  possibly  within  ten  }  ears,  the  majority  of  the 
free  white  inhabitants- of  this  State  vdll  be  found  to  the  west  of  the  Blue  Ridge.  A  re- 
ference to  the  several  enumerations  of  our  population  since  1190,  will  sheAV  the  grounds 
of  this  conclusion  ;  a  conclusion  which  is  farther  fortified  by  the  report  just  received 
from  the  Auditor,  and  now  in  the  hands  of  every 'member.  In  1S20,  the  difference  of 
population  between  the  eastern  and  western  sid^e  of  the  Blue  Ridge  was  near  100,000 
m  favor  of  tiie  eastern  side  ;  now  it  is  only  43,000.  Thus,  the  western  comities  have 
experienced  an  increase  in  eight  years,  of  more  than  59,000  inhabitants:  if  such  has 
been  the  ratio  of  gain  in  these  eight  years,'  it  is  not  too  much  to  beheve  that  in  ten 
years  more,  they  will  have  a  majority  of  the  whole  State. 

Tiie  report  of  the  Auditor  makes  the  population  of  the  Valley  10,000  more  than  I 
supposed :  allowing  for  that  ditierence  (which  is,  as  far  as  it  goes,  in  favour  of  my  ar- 
gument.) The  population  west  of  the  Alleghany  mountains  has  increased  in  the  same 
tmie  4c>,000  ;  or  about  at  the  rate  of  thirty-six  per  cent,  on  its  former  population ; 
wliile  the  Valley  has  increased  15,000 ;  and  putting  both  those  divisions  of  the  State 
together,  their  ao-gregate  increase  has  been  at  the  rate  of  twenty-five  per  cent.  But 
wixat  has  been  tne  rate  of  increase  in  the  country  cast  of  the  Blue  Ridge It  has  in- 
creaot'd  but  by  a  ratio  of  four  per  cent ! 

Let  us  look,  now,  at  the  results  of  the  system  of  taxation.  The  average  amount  of 
a^capitation  tax  in  the  region' west  of  the  mountains  was  twenty- five  cents  per  head: 
in  the  V^aliey,  forty-eight  cents :  putting  these  two  divisions  of  the  State  together,  the 
average  will  be  thirty-two  cents.  And  what  was  it  in  the  country  east  of  the  Blue 
Ridge    eighty-eight  cents  per  head. 

Look  now  at  the  land  tax  in  these  two  grand  divisions  of  Virginia ;  set  slaves  on 
one  side.  On  the  other  side  of  the  Ridge  lands  were  taxed  one  dollar,  while  on-this 
side  they  were  taxed  about  two  and  a  half :  more  than  double. 

From  aggregate  results  go  down  to  details  :  the  same  general  result  meets  you  still. 
Durmg  last  war  there  was  a  tax  on  cattle  in  Virginia,  (one  of  the  articles  which  the 
gentleman  has  alluded  to  in  his  argument  as  more  peculiarly  pertaining  to  the  wes- 
tern inhabitants)  and  even  on  cattle,  more  v.- as  ps:id  on  this  side  the  mountain  than  on 
the  other  side.  From  all  these  facts,  I  am  led  to  conclude  that  the  existing  inequahty 
is  likely  to  continue.  If  not,  the  amendment  can  do  no  harm.  When  there  is  no 
unequal  taxation,  it  can  do  no  harm  to  say  that  representation  shall  be  regulated  by 
taxation  and  population  ;  for  then  it  vnW  result  in  the  very- thing  the  gentleman  wants; 
he  will  have  representation  based  upon  the  ^vhite  population  exclusively  ;  or  if  it  shall 
happen  that  the  people  of  the  west  pay  more  taxes,  then  the  efiect  will  be  to  throw 
the  weight  of  legislative  power  into  that  part  of  the  State  which  now  complains  for 
the  want  of  it. 

The  gentleman  asks  us,  what  motives  the  people  of  the  west  can  have  to  misuse 
Ih^ir  power  .'^  1  vvill  state  one  inducemeiit.  They  have  one  great  object  of  desire,  and 
the  vv'hole  history  of  our  State  Legislature  will  prove  it,  and  that  is  the  construction 
of  roads  and  canals.  The  desire  of  roads  and  canals  has  of  late  years  grown  into  an 
enthusiastic  passion  among  them..  The  whole  of  the  country  beyond  the  Ridge  has 
passed  tiiose  improvements  by  an  unanimous  vote,  when  they  were  proposed.  The  - 
improvements  on  James  River,  in  their  extended  form,  were  assented  to  solely  for  the 
benefit  of  the  people  of  the  v/est :  a  much  more  limited  work  would  have  answered 
all  the  ends  and  wishes  of  the  people  in  the  east  of  the  State.  A  proposition  was  once 
before  our  House  of  Delegates  to  borrow  three  millions  and  about  seven  hundred 
thousand  dollars  for  objects  of  this  description,  and  every  western  man  supported  and 
voted  for  the  scheme ;  nay,  it  was  but  last  year  that  a  loan  of  a  million  was  brought 
forward,  and,  I  believe,  every  western  vote  was  given  in  the  affirmative.  Here,  then, 
is  an  induceuieni,  and  here  are  iictual  efforts,- to  tax  the  lowlands  for  the  benefit  of 
western  interests. 

But  it  has  been  said  that  property  has,  and  always  will,  protect  itself  Sir,  I  admit 
that  when  property  is  unequally  held  by  persons,  ail  residing  in  one  district  together, 
and,  therefore,  having  all  one  conmion  interest,  there  may  be  truth  in  the  position. 
Bat  where  it  is  dispersed  in  different  and  distant  positions  of  the  State,  there  is  no 
such  motive  to  restrain  the  attempts  of  tliose  who  have  little  common  feeling  with  its" 
possessors. 

It  has  been  farther  said,  that  the  restraints  of  conscience  furnish  an  ample  security  ; 
but,  I  believe,  all  political  institutions,  as  w-ell  in  this  as  in  ever}*  other  country,  go  on 


64 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


the  assumption  that  all  men,  when  acting,  especially  in  large  bodies,  are  governed  by 
a  feeling  of  interest,  and  do  with  little  or  no  scruple,  whatever  they  suppose  their  in- 
terest to  dictate.    I  consider  it  as  a  self-evident  proposition. 

On  the  subject  of  slaves,  it  is  true  that  one  purpose  of  the  amendment,  is  to  secure 
them  from  undue  taxation.  The  gentleman  tells  us  that  those  living  on  this  side  the 
movintain,  have  a  majority  of  the  slaves,  and  a  majority  in  the  Legislature,  and  will 
continue  to  have  both.  But  it  will  be  found  that  if  any  question  shall  arise  in  the 
Valley  on  that  subject,  almost  all  the  voters  there  are  destitute  of  slaves.  In  those 
four  counties  the  one  class  is  to  the  other  as  nearly  three  to  one. 

Let  us,  in  the  next  place,  look  at  the  relative  effect  upon  the  general  state  of  our 
affairs  from  the  adoption  of  the  resolution  as  it  stands,  and  with  the  amendment.  If 
the  white  basis  shall  be  adopted,  the  people  in  the  lowlands  will  never  feel  secure; 
jealousies  and  an  interminable  hostility  will  be  generated,  and  perpetuate  feuds  and 
heart-burnings  between  different  sections  of  the  State.  But  if  you  adopt  the  covi- 
pound  basis,  although,  possibly,  tlie  people  of  the  west  may,  for  a  time,  be  very  angry, 
as  considering  themselves  deprived  of  political  weight  and  privileges,  they  never  can 
feel  themselves  insecure  as  to  their  property  ;  for  no  law  can  be  passed  in  the  Legis- 
lature affecting  property  at  all,  that  will  not  be  felt  to  a  much  greater  extent  on  this 
side  the  mountains. 

I  have  heard  in  various  forms,  (though  not  as  yet  in  this  Committee,)  of  adequate 
guarantees.  For  myself,  I  believe  that  we  can  have  no  adequate  guarantee  but  in  re- 
presentation. A  majority  in  the  Senate  alone,  I  consider  as  wholly  insufficient;  the 
larger  number  of  delegates  in  the  other  House  will  always,  in  the  course  of  two  or 
three  years,  prevail  in  carrying  any  object  they  have  at  heart:  they  always  over- 
whelm the  Senate  in  the  end.  I  shall  not  advert  to  the  other  guarantees  that  have 
been  proposed  :  for  I  am  unwilling  longer  to  detain  the  Committee.  I  feel  regret  at 
having  already  been  compelled  to  trespass  on  their  time.  Important  facts  were  what 
I  wished  principally  to  present  to  them,  and  those  I  have  stated  are  in  my  judgment 
entitled  to  great  weight  in  the  mind  of  every  reflecting  man. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke,  said,  that  he  did  not  rise  for  the  purpose  of  making  a 
speech ;  nor  of  attempting  a  reply  to  the  speech  he  had  just  heard  :  but  to  offer  a  re- 
mark or  two  in  relation  to  the  order  of  the  Committee's  proceedings.  Order  he  con- 
sidered as  the  first  law  of  heaven  :  but  if  he  were  to  judge  of  its  importance  by  what 
he  saw  here,  he  should  conclude  that  this  body  were  departing  from  it  entirely ;  and, 
by  a  constant  law  of  nature,  they  were  incurring  the  penalty  of  such  a  course,  for 
confusion  and  darkness  were  likely  to  accompany  their  proceedings.  Yesterday  the 
Committee  had  been  occupied  in  the  development  of  the  grand  principles  which  lay 
at  the  bottom  of  the  science  of  government,  and  it  seemed  to  be  the  understanding, 
that  this  Convention  would  have  for  its  object  to  settle  those  fundamental  principles, 
the  sub-basis,  as  they  might  be  termed,  of  the  fundamental  law  of  the  community. 
Some  very  interesting  remarks  had,  in  that  connexion,  been  submitted  to  the  Com- 
mittee. But  the  positions  taken  were  treated  as  mere  abstractions,  and  it  was  held 
that  the  proper  course  was  to  lay  these  aside,  until  the  Committee  should  first  have 
gone  down  to  the  practical  details  of  Government.  Now,  for  liimself,  Mr.  C.  said, 
he  knew  of  nothing  that  could  rightly  be  called  a  principle,  that  was  not  an  abstract 
idea.  Justice,  goodness,  truth,  might  be  so  called,  and  they  were  all  abstract  ideas. 
All  the  principles  in  science  were  abstract  ideas.  But  in  reviewing  the  course  adopt- 
ed, he  perceived  that  it  had  been  taken  on  this  ground,  that  it  was  said  to  be  inexpe- 
dient to  settle  principles  first,  for  they  were  mere  abstractions,  and  gentlemen  nnist 
try  their  practical  effect  first,  before  they  could  espouse  them.  They  must  go  to  the 
practical  part  of  Government,  irrespective  of  principles.  This  doctrine  had  thrown 
the  Committee  into  complete  confusion.  It  had  been  then  proposed  to  take  up  the 
first  resolution  reported  by  the  Committee  on  the  Legislative  Department,  and  there- 
upon came  in  the  amendment  now  under  consideration.  The  amendinent  certainly 
threw  the  onus  probandi  on  the  gentleman  wiio  proposed  it ;  but  as  the  mover  yes- 
terday asked  delay,  the  amendment  had  been  laid  over,  and  was  now  pending.  The 
expectation  of  the  Committee  had  been  that  some  proof  should  have  been  adduced  in 
its  support ;  but  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper  (Mr.  Green)  had  opened  the  debate  by 
declining  to  offer  any,  and  both  he,  and  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  (Mr.  Leigh) 
called  on  the  advocates  of  the  resolution  for  arguments  in  its  support.  Certainly  the 
burden  of  proof  lay  upon  the  gentlemen  themselves.  Onus  probandi  incumhit  affir- 
vianti.  The  gentleman  from  Culpeper  had  offered  an  amendment,  which  he  affirmed 
ought  to  be  added  to  the  resolution  in  place  of  a  word  which  he  proposed  to  strike 
out.  To  call  on  the  friends  of  the  resolution  for  arguments,  when  the  obligation  to 
argue  lay  on  the  opposite  party,  was  as  great  an  aberration  from  the  correct  principles 
of  order  as  that  wliich  had  taken  place  yesterday.  Either  adopt  the  principles  in  the 
Bill  of  Rights  as  canonical,  and  base  all  your  subsequent  proceedings  upon  them ;  or, 
if  those  principles  are  considered  as  unsound,  let  them  be  modified  or  amended ;  or 
else  let  gentlemen  propose  other  principles  as  a  substitute  for  them.    Let  them  give 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


65 


us  their  principles  distinctly  and  in  numerical  order,  first,  second,  third,  and  so  on ; 
then,  said  Mr.  C.  we  shall  know  where  we  are.  In  a  word,  I  consider  the  order 
yesterday  to  have  been    no  principles that  to-day  seems  to  be    no  proof." 

The  Chair  having  stated  the  question  to  be  on  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman 
from  Culpeper,  (Judge  Green,)  and  the  question  being  called  for  by  severafmembers, 
Judge  Upshur  of  Northampton,  said,  that  it  seemed  to  have  been  concluded  b}-- tacit 
agreement,  that  the  debate  was  to  be  conducted  by  a  member  on  each  side  alternately, 
and  he  considered  that  a  convenient  mode  of  proceeding.  He  felt  disinclined  to  sub- 
mit his  own  views  at  this  time  ;  and  from  the  backwardness  manifested  by  gentlemen 
on  the  opposite  side  of  the  question,  (if,  indeed,  the  Convention  was  to  be  considered 
as  thus  divided  into  sides.)  he  presumed  they  were  taken  somewhat  by  surprise,  and 
were  not  now  ready  to  submit  their  ideas.  Instead,  therefore,  of  carrying  on  the  ar- 
gument at  present,  with  a  view  to  give  gentlemen  time  and  opportunity  for  farther 
reflection,  as  well  as  that  the  order  of  discussion  miglit  be  preserved,  he  thought  it 
most  fair  and  most  expedient,  that  the  Committee  now  rise;  and  he  made  that  motion  j 
but  withdrew  it  at  the  request  of 

i\Ir.  Mercer,  who  said,  that  he  could  not  undertake  to  speak  for  other  gentlemen; 
but  he  certainly  could  say,  very  confidently,  as  it  respected  hhuself,  that  the  presump- 
tion just  expressed  by  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  was  totally  without  founda- 
tion, viz  :  that  the  friends  of  the  resolution  reported  by  the  Legislative  Committee  ; 
in  other  words,  the  friends  of  the  white  basis,  as  it  was  technically  and  familiarly  cal- 
led, were  not  ready  to  reply :  he  hoped  he  might  be  permitted  to  say,  that  he  was  en- 
tirely prepared  to  reply,  but  was  perfectly  wilhng  to  rest  the  vote  on  the  amendment 
upon  the  argument  they  had  already  heard. 

Judge  Upshur  replied,  that  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun  mistook  liim  if  he  sup- 
posed him  to  insinuate  for  a  moment,  that  that  gentleman,  or  his  friends,  were  unpre- 
pared, in  the  sense  he  seemed  to  have  supposed.  He  took  it  for  granted,  that  gentle- 
men on  that  side  of  the  question  were  all  fiilly  prepared  to  address  the  Conventioii, 
so  far  as  familiarity  with  the  facts  and  arguments  pertaining  to  the  subject  was  con- 
cerned :  all  he  had  meant  to  say  was,  that  they  did  not  seem  deskous  to  proceed  with 
the  discussion  on  this  day.  He  had  rested  his  motion  for  the  rising  of  the  Commit- 
tee, on  the  plan  which  seemed  to  have  been  agreed  upon,  of  spealiing  alternately. 
He  thought  such  a  plan  very  fair,  and  on  the  whole  the  best  course.  If.  tlierefore,  it 
was  not  the  intention  of  some  of  the  gentlemen  on  that  side  to  submit  his  views  to 
the  Coixmiittee,  he  hoped  the  Committee  would  rise  :  and  he  thereupon  renewed  his 
motion  to  that  effect. 

Mr.  Mercer  rejoined.  If  the  gentleman  from  Northampton  and  his  friends  were 
not  ready  to  speak  farther  in  support  of  the  amendment  which  they  had  brought  for- 
ward, perhaps  it  would  be  better  to  pass  it  over  for  the  present,  and  take  up  some 
other  pai't  of  the  report ;  but  he  hoped  the  House  would  not  adjourn  at  so  early  an 
hour,  and  thus  waste  the  residue  of  the  da}'.  For  himself  and  those  who  acted  with 
him,  they  were  ready  at  any  time  to  proceed. 

The  question  being  put  on  the  motion  for  the  rising  of  the  Committee,  it  was  nega- 
tived. 

And  the  question  then  recurring  on  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Green,  (viz.  in  adding 
the  words  '•  and  taxation  combined''  to  the  first  resolution  of  the  Committee  proposing 
the  white  basis  of  representation,) 

Judge  Upshub  rose  and  addressed  the  Committee,  nearly  as  follows  : 
I  cannot  saj,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  I  have  been  driven  into  this  discussion  without 
some  degree  of  preparation.  Yet  I  may  be  permitted  to  declare,  tliat  I  did  not  antici- 
pate that  I  should  thus  early  be  called  on  to  submit  my  vie-ws  to  the  Committee.  It 
is  true,  Sir,  that  the  few  simple  ideas  which  it  is  my  purpose  to  submit,  do  not  require 
a  laboured  preparation  of  any  sort ;  but  I  should  at  least,  have  entered  mto  the  debate 
with  more  pleasant  feelings,  had  not  circumstances  deprived  me  of  the  power  of  choos- 
ing my  own  time. 

There  seems  to  be  some  difference  of  opinion  among  us,  as  to  the  proper  order  of 
debate.  A  question  has  arisen  whether  the  friends  or  the  foes  of  tlie  mimediate  mea- 
sure before  us,  are  bound  to  open  the  discussion.  For  my  own  part.  I  do  not  attach 
the  slightest  importance  to  that  inquiry  :  to  me  it  seems  of  no  consequence  whatever, 
wliether  the  advocates  of  a  compound  basis  of  representation,  or  those  of  the  popular 
basis,  begin  tliis  discussion.  I  could  have  wished,  so  far  as  I  feel  any  wish  upon  the 
matter,  that  the  two  parties  should  have  addressed  the  Committee  in  alternate  order  ; 
for  this,  it  seems  to  me,  would  be  at  once,  equitable  and  respectful,  at  the  same  time 
that  it  would  best  conduce  to  the  elucidation  of  the  subject.  It  was  my  wish  that 
each  party  should  be  heard  in  turn  ;  but  it  is  still  more  my  wish,  that  each  sliould  be 
heard  with  patience  and  candour,  and  answered  in  a  spirit  of  kindness  and  respect. 

For  myself,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  trust  that  I  have  entered  this  body,  without  any  feel- 
ings of  local  partiality  or  local  prejudice.  I  entertam  a  deep  conviction,  that  in  the 
discharge  of  the  solemn  trust  reposed  in  me,  it  is  my  duty  to  consider  myself  the  re- 

9 


66 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


pres^ntative  of  the  whole  State,  and  not  of  any  pecuhar  part  of  it.  I  came  here  with 
an  earnest,  and  an  honest  desire,  to  fix  the  foundations  of  Government  with  reference 
to  the  common  welfare  ;  and  not  upon  the  narrow  basis  of  local  interest.  I  brought 
with  me  also,  another  feeling;  a  feehng  which  is  the  result  of  long  and  mature  reflec- 
tion, and  which  1  had  hopecTto  make  the  guide  of  my  conduct  here.  It  appears  to 
me  impossible,  that  in  a  body  like  this,  representing  many  differing,  if  not  conflicting 
interests,  any  party  can  reasonably  hope  to  carry  all  its  measures.  Nay,  Sir,  even  if 
this  were  practicable,  it  admits  of  great  doubt  indeed,  whether  it  would  be  in  its  results, 
either  safe  or  wise.  In  a  community  like  our  own,  no  Government  can  gain  the  un- 
divided affection,  nor  secure  the  undivided  support  of  the  people,  unless  it  spring  from 
a  fair  and  equitable  compromise  of  interests.  It  Vv^as  therefore  my  earnest  hope,  that 
there  would  be  no  necessity  for  a  formal  array  of  parties  upon  this  point.  I  have  fore- 
seen that  we  could  not  be  much  divided  upon  any  other  subject  within  the  range  of 
our  duties  ;  and  it  was  therefore,  peculiarly  desirable,  tliat  on  tlds  subject,  we  should 
agree  to  meet  on  some  middle  ground.  I  was,  and  still  am  ready,  to  advance  quite, 
nay,  more  than  half  way;  for  I  feel  entirely  assured,  that  the  great  interests  commit- 
ted to  our  charge,  require  this  temper  in  every  one  of  us.  Unfortunately  ,  however,  I 
have  not  found  a  single  individual  on  the  other  side,  who  would  agree  with  me  in 
opinion.*'  I  am  therefore,  driven  to  the  necessity  of  relying  on  the  strength  of  my 
own  principles  ;  and  I  shall  attest  the  sincerity  with  which  1  entertain  them,  by  the 
vote  I  am  about  to  give. 

It  is  contended  by  our  opponents,  that  the  proper  basis  of  representation  in  the  Gene- 
ral Assembly,  is  wliite  popula.tion  alone,  because  this  principle  results  necessarily  from 
the  right  which  the  majority  possess,  to  rule  the  minority.  I  have  been  forcibly 
struck  with  the  fact,  that  in  all  the  arguments  upon  this  subject  here  and  elsevv'here, 
this  right  in  a  majority  is  assumed  as  a  postulate.  It  has  not  yet  been  proved,  nor  have 
I  even  heard  an  attempt  to  prove  it.  It  is  for  this  proof  that  I  was  desirous  to  wait. 
Assuming  this  right  as  conceded,  tlie  whole  scope  of  the  argument  has  been  to  prove, 
that  in  the  application  of  the  right  to  tlie  practical  Government,  we  must  of  necessity, 
graduate  political  power  according  to  white  population  alone.  It  may  not  perhaps,  be 
more  curious  than  profitable,  to  examine  somewhat  in  detail,  the  grounds  upon  which 
this  pretension  rests. 

There  are  two  kinds  of  majority.  There  is  a  majority  in  interest,  as  well  as  a  ma- 
jority in  number.  If  the  first  be  within  the  contemplation  of  gentlemen,  there  is  an 
end  of  all  discussion.  It  is  precisely  the  principle  for  which  we  contend,  and  we  shall 
be  happy  to  unite  with  them  in  so  regulating  this  matter,  that  those  Avho  have  the 
greatest  stake  in  the  Government,  shall  have  the  greatest  share  of  power  in  the  ad- 
ministration of  it.  But  this  is  not  what  gentlemen  mean.  They  mean,  for  they  dis- 
tinctly say  so,  that  a  majority  in  number  only,  without  regard  to  property,  shall  give 
the  rule.    It  is  the  propriety  of  this  rule,  Avhich  I  now  propose  to  examine. 

If  there  be,  as  our  opponents  assume,  an  original,  a  priori,  inherent  and  indestruc- 
tible right  in  a  majority  to  control  a  minority,  from  what  source  permit  me  to  inquire, 
is  that  right  derived  ?  If  it  exist  at  all,  it  must  I  apprehend,  be  found  either  in  some 
positive  compact  or  agreement  conferring  it,  or  else  in  some  order  of  our  nature,  in- 
dependent of  all  compact,  and  consequently  prior  to  all  Government.  If  gentlemen 
claim  the  right  here  as  springing  from  positive  compact,  from  what  compact  does  it 
spring  ?  Not  certainly  from  that  Constitution  of  Government  which  we  are  now  re- 
vising ;  for  the  chief  purpose  for  which  we  have  been  brought  together,  is  to  correct 
a  supposed  defect  in  the  Constitution,  in  this  very  particular.  Not  certainly  from  any 
other  Constitution  or  form  of  Government,  for  to  none  other  are  we  at  liberty  to  look, 
for  any  grant  of  power,  or  any  principle  which  can  bind  us.  The  right  then,  is  not, 
conventional.  Its  source  must  be  found  beyond  all  civil  society,  prior  to  all  social 
compact,  and  independent  of  its  sanctions.  We  must  look  for  it  in  the  law  of  nature  ; 
we  have  indeed  been  distinctly  told,  tiiat  it  exists  in  "  necessity  and  nature  ;"  and  upon 
that  ground  only,  has  it  hitherto  been  claimed.  I  propose  now  to  inquire  whether  the 
law  of  nature  does  indeed,  confer  this  right  or  not. 

Let  me  not  be  misunderstood.  Sir.  I  am  not  now  inquiring  whether,  according  to 
the  form  and  nature  of  our  institutions,  a  majority  ought  or  ought  not  to  rule.  That 
inquiry  will  be  made  hereafter.  At  present,  I  propose  only  to  prove  that  there  is  no 
original  a  priori  principle  in  the  law  of  nature,  which  gives  to  a  majority  a  right  to 
control  a  minority;  and  of  coTirse,  that  we  are  not  bound  by  any  obligation  7??  w  <o 
society,  to  adopt  that  principle  in  our  civil  institutions. 

If  there  be  any  thing  in  the  law  of  nature  which  confers,  the  right  now  contended 
for,  in  what  part  of  her  code,  I  would  ask,  is  it  to  be  found For  my  own  part,  I  in- 
cline strongly  to  think,  that,  closely  examined,  the  law  of  nature  will  be  found  to  con- 

*  Judge  Upshur  takes  great  pleasure  in  acknowledging  that  he  has  learned,  since  the  ahove  remark 
was  made,  that  there  are  some  gentlemen  on  the  other  side,  who  have  always  been  willing  to  meet  any 
proposition  of  fair  compromise.  Their  number  however,  is  not  large  enough  to  authorise  a  liope  that 
the  measure  could  bo  carried,  even  with  their  assistance. 


DEBATES    OF  THE 


CONVENTTION. 


67 


fer  no  other  riffbt  than  this  :  the  right  in  every  creature  to  use  the  powers  derived 
from  nature,  in  such  mode  as  will  best  promote  its  own  happiness.  If  this  be  not  the 
law  of  nature,  she  is  certainly  but  little  obeyed  in  any  of  the  living  departments  of 
her  empire.  Throughout  her  boundless  domain,  the  law  of  force  gives  the  only  rule 
of  right.  The  Hon  devours  the  ox ;  the  ox  drives  the  lamb  from  the  green  pasture  : 
th«  lamb  exerts  the  same  law  of  power  over  the  animal  that  is  weaker  and  more  timid 
than  itself;  and  thus  the  rule  rmis,  throughout  all  the  gradations  of  life,  until  at  last, 
the  worm  devours  us  all.  But.  if  there  be  another  law  independent  of  force,  which 
gives  to  a  greater  nmnber  a  right  to  control  a  smaller  number,  to  what  consequence 
does  it  lead .'  Gentlemen  must  themselves  admit,  that  all  men  are  by  nature  equal, 
for  this  is  the  very  foundatiun  of  their  claim  of  right  in  a  majority.  If  tliis  be  so, 
each  individual  has  his  rights,  which  are  precisely  equal  to  the  rights  of  his  fellow. 
But  the  right  of  a  majority  to  rule,  necessarily  implies  a  right  to  impose  restraints,  in 
some  form  or  other ;  either  upon  the  freedom  of  opinion  or  the  freedom  of  ac- 
tion. And  what  follows  ?  Each  one  of  three,  enjoys  the  same  rights  with  each  one 
of  four,  and  yet  it  is  gravely  said,  that  because  four  is  a  majority  of  the  seven,  tJiat 
majority  has  a  right  to  restrain,  to  abridge,  and  consequently,  to  destroy  all  the  rights 
of  the  lesser  number.  That  is  to  say,  wliile  all  are  by  nature  equal,  and  all  derive 
from  nature  the  same  rights  in  every  respect,  there  shall  yet  be  a  number,  only  one 
less  than  a  majority  of  the  whole,  who  may  not  by  the  law  of  nature  possess  any 
rights  at  all ! 

If,  Sir.  it  be  possible  to  carry  our  minds  back  to  such  a  state  of  existence,  let  us  sup- 
pose that  the  wild  children  of  nature  are  for  the  first  time,  assembling  together  for  the 
purpose  of  forming  a  social  compact.  Each  one  of  them  would  bring  with  him  aU 
the  rights  which  he  derived  from  nature,  and  among  these  rights,  would  be  fomid  the 
right  to  say  ichether  a  majority  should  rule  him  or  not.  And.  suppose  a  civil  compact 
should  be  entered  into  by  ever}'  member  of  the  savage  assembly,  save  one.  Is  that 
one  bound  by  what  the  rest  have  determined  ?  If  he  has  griginalh-  a  right  to  say 
whether  he  will  agree  to  the  compact  or  not.  at  what  time  does  that  right  cease  to  ex- 
ist, and  by  what  au.t]iority  is  it  taken  away Vntil  the  compact  is  formed,  there  is  no 
majority  in  existence ;  and  after  it  is  formed,  he  is  no  party  to  it ;  and  therefore  not 
bound  by  its  majority. 

Again. — How  is  this  majority  to  be  ascertained  ?  Who  shall  appoint  the  tellers,  and 
who  shall  announce  on  which  side  the  majority  is?  All  these  are  necessary  opera- 
tions, without  wliich  the  idea  of  a  majority,  is  indeed,  an  ■'•  abstraction  and  vet  these 
very  operations  presuppose  a  degree  of  order  and  arrangement  inconsistent  with  a 
state  of  nature,  aiid  which  cannot  exist  except  in  a  state  of  society. 

Again. — Within  what  limits  is  this  majority  to  act  ?  Is  it  a  majority  of  the  whole 
world,  or  only  of  a  part  of  it .' '  If  of  the  whole  world,  then  two  millions  of  savoges  who 
range  the  forests  of  America,  ma}^  prescribe  the  law  to  one  million  who  inlfabit  the 
Asiatic  Islands  ;.  two  milhons  who  live  by  hunting  the  elk  and  the  buffaloe  with  a  bow 
and  arr(^w,  have  authority  to  say  that  one  million,  among  whom  these  animals  of  the 
chase  may  not  be  found,  shall  not  draw  their  subsistence  from  the  ocean  which  sur- 
rounds them  1  Is  this  the  law  of  nature  :  Has  the  Creator  really  ingrafted  upon  the 
nature  of  man,  a  principle  which  gives  sanction  to  such  monstrous  cruelty  and  in- 
justice 

But  suppose,  instead  of  looking  to  the  wliole  world,  you  limit  your  majority  to  par- 
ticular districts  of  it.  It  is  impossible  to  do  this,  according  to  any  fixed  rule,  except 
by  supposing  that  the  world  is  divided  into  separate  and  distinct  communities,  pos- 
sessing separate  and  distinct  interests.  And  this  is  precisely  what  we  understand  by 
a  state  of  society,  as  contradistinguislied  from  a  state  of  nature  ;  and  of  course,  the 
majority  which  is  to  be  found  there,  is  not  the  majority  wliich  the  proposition  supposes. 

But  again.  If  nature  really  gives  this  right  to  a  majority  ;  if  as  the  clear-minded 
gentleman  from  Frederick  (^Nlr.  Cooke)  supposes,  there  be  impressed  upon  us  by  na- 
•ture,  a  principle  of  this  sort,  which  is  mandatory  upon  us,  and  which  we  are  not  at 
liberty  to  disregard,  in  what  does  the  right  consist?  Is  it  in  mere  numbers.'  If  so, 
every .  creature  must  be  counted,  men,  women  and  cliildren ;  the  useless  as  well  as 
the  useful the  drone  who  hves  upon  the  industry  of  others,  as  well  as  the  most  pro- 
fitable member  of  the  human  family.  The  law  of  nature  knows  no  distinction  be- 
tween these  classes,  and  indeed,  one  of  the  v&ry  postulates  on  which  gentlemen  rely, 
is  that  "  all  are  by  nature  equal.''  In  point  of  rights,  nature  does  not  own  any  dis- 
tinction of  age  or  sex.  Infaircy  has  equal  rights  with  mature  age  ;  and  surely  it  does 
not  consist  with  the  gallantry  of  the  present  day,  to  say  that  the  ladies  are  not  at  least 
the  equals  of  ourselves.  Nay,  more  Sir,  nature  as  strongly  disowns  all  invidious  dis- 
tinctions in  complexion  :  in  her  eye,  there  is  no  difference  between  jet  and  vermilion. 
A  distinction  does  indeed  prevail  here,  Sir,  and  a  vdde  one  it  is.  But  the  same  rule 
of  taste  would  not  answer  in  Africa  :  for  the  African  paints  the  devil  white.  Accord- 
ing to  your  rule  of  numbers,  all  these  various  classes  and  descriptions  of  persons 
must  count.    And  if  so,  what  estimate  have  gentlemen  themselves  put  upon  their 


68 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


own  rule?  If  in  the  estimate  of  numbers,  all  are  counted,  why  exclude  any  from 
the  right' of  suffrage?  Why  are  not  women,  and  children,  and  paupers,  admitted  to 
the  polls  ?  The  rule,  even  if  it  exists  in  nature,  is  worth  nothing,  unless  its  fair  ana- 
logies will  hold  in  a  state  of  society.  And  how  can  gentlemen  venture  to  limit  them- 
selves to  -white  population  alone,  and  yet  found  their  claim  on  a  law  of  nature  which 
knows  no  distinction  between  white  and  black  ?  By  their  rule,  we  are  entitled  to  re- 
presentation of  every  slave  in  our  land ;  and  if  they  will  give  us  this,  we  shall  dis- 

?ute  with  them  no  longer.  The  majority  will  then  be  with  us.  God  forbid,  Sir,  that 
should  propose  this  seriously.  I  am  as  ready  as  any  gentleman  here,  to  disclaim 
every  idea  of  the  sort.  I  use  the  argument  only  to  shew  to  what  consequences  this 
demand,  founded  on  a  supposed  law  of  nature,  must  inevitably  conduct  us.  Gentle- 
men may  not  claim  the  benefit  of  a  rule,  which  will  not  bear  to  be  pushed  to  its  legi- 
timate results ;  a  rule  which  they  themselves  are  compelled  to  abandon,  at  the  very 
first  step  which  they  take  into  practical  Government. 

If  then,  there  be  no  inherent  virtue  in  numbers  which  confers  this  right,  in  what 
else  does  it  consist?  I  have  heard  elsewhere,  of  another  ground  on  which  gentlemen 
have  been  pleased  to  rest  it,  and  it  is  now  distinctly  announced  by  the  able  gentleman 
from  Frederick.  It  is  j^hysical  power.  I  do  not  understand  the  gentleman  from  Fre- 
derick in  the  objectionable  sense,  of  which  his  language  was  probably  susceptible. 
He  did  not  mean  that  this  power  in  a  majority  would  or  ought  to  be  applied,  in  the 
actual  Government ;  it  is  impossible  to  attribute  to  the  clear  head  and  sound  princi- 
ples of  that  gentleman,  any  meaning  so  uncourteous  as  a  threat.  I  understood  him, 
as  he  meant  to  be  understood,  in  this  sense  only  :  Every  law  implies  the  necessity 
of  some  sanction  ;  force  is  the  only  sanction  in  the  case  before  us,  and  as  this  force 
is  presumed  to  reside  in  the  greatest  degree,  in  a  majority,  it  follows  that  a  ma- 
jority only  can  apply  the  sanction,  and  of  course  that  a  majority  ought  to  give  the 
law. 

Here,  Sir,  we  are  under  the  necessity  of  looking  back  upon  the  preceding  proposi- 
tion. From  what  sources  are  we  to  derive  this  majority?  I  have  endeavored  to 
shew  that  by  nature,  all  are  equal  and  possess  equal  rights.  Then  -woinen  and  chil- 
dren must  be  counted  here  also,  as  well  as  men.  Now,  we  learn  from  good  authority, 
that  throughout  the  universe,  the  sexes  rank  to  each  other  as  thirteen  and  fourteen. 
Suppose  then,  the  females  to  be  all  ranged  on  one  side  of  the  question,  with  a  few 
children  in  their  laps,  and  a  few  superannuated  and  decrepid  men,  at  their  sides. 
They  may  thus  very  well  constitute  a  majority  of  the  whole  number  ;  but  will  the 
physical  power  be  with  them  ?  No  Sir.  That  power  has  ever  been  found  with  per- 
sonal strength,  and  intrepidity  and  skill.  These  qualities  have  at  all  times,  and  in  all 
places,  been  an  overmatch  for  mere  undisciplined  numbers.  Here  then  is  a  case  in 
which  the  majority  do  not  possess  the  power  of  applying  the  sanction  ;  and  of  course, 
the  right  to  rule,  which  is  supposed  to  follow  the  sanction,  is  in  this  case,_  with  the 
minority.  The  case  is  quite  as  apt  to  occur,  and  quite  as  easy  to  be  supposed,  as  that 
state  of  existence  to  which  it  refers,  and  from  which  gentlemen  borrow  their  argu- 
ment. And  the  necessary  conclusion,  upon  the  hypothesis  assumed,  is,  that  in  one 
state  of  things  a  majority  may  have  a  right  to  rule,  and  in  another  state  of  things  a 
minority  may  have  that  right;  and  this  too,  by  the  very  same  fixed  and  uniform  law 
of  nature  ! 

To  such- absurdities  are  we  inevitably  driven  when  we  attempt  to  apply  principles 
deduced  from  a  state  of  nature,  to  a  state  of  society  ;  a  state  which  pre-supposes  that 
nature  with  all  her  rights  and  all  her  laws,  has  been. shaken  off !  Indeed,  Sir,  the 
whole  reasoning  is  fallacious,  because  it  is  founded  on  a  state  of  things  which  in  all 
pi-obability,  never  had  existence  at  all.  It  goes  back  to  a  state  prior  to  all  history,  and 
about  which  we  know  nothing  beyond  mere  conjecture.  The  first  accounts  which 
we  have  of  man,  are  of  man  in  a  social  state.  Wherever  he  has  been  found,  and 
however  rude  his  condition,  he  has  been  bound  to  his  fellows  by  some  form  of  associ- 
ation, in  advance  of  a  state  of  nature.  If  we  may  indulge  any  conjecture  upon  such- 
a  subject,  the  probability  is  that  he  was  first  urged  into  society,  by  a  strong  feeling  of 
property  implanted  in  his- nature  ;  by  a  feeling  that  he  had,  or  at  least,  that  he  ought 
to  have,  v-.  better  title  than  anotlier,  to  whatever  his  own  labour  had  appropriated. 
The  necessity  of  securing  this  right  and  protecting  him  in  the  enjoyment  of  it,  in  all 
probability,  first  suggested  the  idea  of  the  social  compact.  Although  property  there- 
fore, is  strictly  speaking  the  creature  of  society,  yet  a  feeling  of  property  was  proba- 
bly its  creator.  The  result  would  be,  that  at  the  very  moment  that  two  human  be- 
ings first  came  together,  the  social  compact  was  formed.  And  gentlemen  have  fallen 
into  another  error  also,  of  a  kindred  nature.  They  build  their  systems  upon  the  no- 
tion of  an  abstract  equality,  for  which  there  is  no  warrant  in  any  thing  we  know  of 
the  history  of  man.  Sir,  I  am  about  to  use  a  borrowed  idea  ;  but  it  is  valuable  for  its 
truth,  and  perfectly  applicable  to  the  subject.  The  first  account  that  we  have  of 
man,  is  that  contained  in  the  Bible  ;  and  how  will  this  notion  of  original  equality 
stand,  when  tested  by  that  orthodox  book  ?    Adam  was  the  first  of  created  beings ; 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


69 


Eve  was  created  next ;  and  the  very  fiat  which  brought  her  into  existence,  subjected 
her  to  the  dominion  of  her  husband.  Here  then  was  no  equaJity.  Cain  was  the 
first  born  of  men,  and  at  what  period  did  he  become  the  equal  of  his  father  ?  _  Was  it 
at  the  moment  of  liis  birth,  while  he  was  yet  scarcely  conscious  of  his  own  existence, 
a  helpless  dependent  upon  the  care  of  his  parents  ?  And  if  not  then,  at  v.-hat  age  did 
this  equality  first  attach  ?  Was  it  at  ten,  or  fifteen,  or- twenty-five,  or  tliirty-five  years 
of  ao-e  ?  Where  is  the  law,  or  the  doctrine  of  nature,  wliich  enables  us  to  say  with 
certainty  and  precision,  at  what  age  the  child  becomes  the  equal  of  his  father  ?  Sir, 
the  true  meaning  of  the  equality  of  men,  as.  applicable  to  this  subject,  was  happily 
expressed  by  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper  (Mr.  Green)  when  he  said  that  all  men 
are  so  far  equal  by  the  law  of  nature,  that  when  they  enter  into  a  state  of  society,  no 
one  can  claim  a  natural  right  to  rule  over  another."  And  for  the  same  reason,  no  ten 
men  can  claim  a  natural  right  to  rule  over  any  nine  men. 

The  subject.  Mr.  Chairman,  is  scarcely  worth  the  examination  it  has  received,  I 
will  pursue  it  no  farther,  since  I  have  no  intention  to  give  you  a  treatise  on  natural 
law,  instead  of  an  argmnent  upon  the  practical  subject  of  Government.  I  have 
thought  it  necessary  to  go  thus  far  into  an  examination  of  the  subject,  because  gen- 
tlemen have  founded  themselves  upon  what  they  are  pleased  to  consider  an  axiom, 
that  there  is  in  a  majority,  an  a  priori,  inherent  and  indestructible  right  to  rule  a  mi- 
nority, under  all  circumstances,  and  in  every  conceivable  condition  of  things.  And 
one  of  them  at  least  has  been  understood  by  me,  as  referring  this  right  to  the  law  of 
nature;  a  law  which  he  supposes,  no  society  cannot  repeal,  and  which  therefore,  is 
of  original  and  universal  authority.  Surely  this  is  a  very  great  mistake.  Nay  Sir^ 
there  is  proof  enough  before  us  that  gentlemen  tliemselves,  who  claim  this  right,  and 
who  seek  to  give  it  solemnity  by  referring  it  to  the  very  law  of  our  being^  do  not 
venture  to  carry  it  into  the  details  of  their  own  system.  If  there  be  a  right  in  a  majority 
of  persons  or  of  ichite  persons,  to  rule  a  minority,  upon  what  principle  is  it  that  the 
right  of  suffrage  is  restricted  ?  All  are  counted,  in  making  up  the  majority  ;  and 
each  one  of  the  majority,  ought  of  consequence,  to  possess  a  share  in  its  rights.  Why 
then  do  you  not  admit  women  to  the  polls  ?  Nature  has  stamped  no  such  inferiority 
upon  that  sex,  as  to  disqualify  it  under  all  circumstances,  for  a  safe  and  judicious  ex- 
ercise of  the  right  of  suffrage.  And  why  exclude  minors  ?  Infants  who  have  not 
acquired  lancruage,  or  whose  intellects  are  not  sufhciently  unfolded  to  enable  them  to 
understand  their  own  actions.  ma3'  be  excluded  from  the  necessity  of  the  case.  But 
at  what  time,  in  the  ordinary  course  of  nature,  do  these  disabilities  cease  ?  Gentle- 
men say,  at  tlie  age  of  twenty-one  years.  And  why  so  ?  Not  certainly  because  na- 
ture declares  it ;  for  the  faculties  attain  maturity-  at  different  periods,  in  different  lati- 
tudes of  the  earth.  In  one  latitude  we  are  ripe  at  sixteen  ;  in  another,  not  until  30 ; 
and  even  among  ourselves,  we  see  many,  under  the  age  of  twenty-one,  who  possess 
more  wisdom  and  more  power  of  general  usefulness,  than  can  be  found  in  others  of 
fifty  ;  far  more  than  in  those  who  have  approached  their  second  cloildhood.  What  is 
there  then,  wliich  indicates  the  precise  period  of  twenty-one  years,  as  the  earliest  at 
which  these  riiembers  of  the  ruling  majority,  may  exercise  the  rights  wliich  belono-  to 
tliem  ?  This,  and  this  only  :  that  tlie  rule  which  is  furnished  by  nature,  is  unfit'^for 
a  state  of  society,  and  we  are  compelled,  in  our  own  defence,  to  adopt  an  arbitrary 
rule  of  our  own,  wliich  is  better  suited  to  our  actual  condition.  There  is  no  one 
among  us  so  wild  and  visionary,  as  to  desire  universal  suffrage  ;  and  yet  it  is  perfectly 
certain  that,  at  the  moment  when  you  limit  that  right,  in  however  small  a  decrree,  you 
depart  from  the  principle  that  a  majority  shall  rule.  If  you  establish  any  disqualifi- 
cation whatever,  there  is  no  natural  necessity,  nor  even  a  moral  certainty,  that  a  ma- 
jorit}'  in  any  given  community,  will  not  come  within  the  exception.  A*iid  this  state 
of  things  may  by  possibility,  exist  within  every  election  district  in  the  Common- 
wealth :  and  thus  you  establish  a  rule,  with  reference  to  the  mtire  body,  which  is  re- 
jected in  every  constituent  member  of  that  body.  Surely,  gentlemen  cannot  claim  the 
benefit  of  a  principle,  which  will  not  bear  to  be  pushed  "to  its  practical  consequences; 
a  principle  which  they  themselves  are  obliged  to  desert  as  unu-ise,  unsafe  and  im- 
practicable, in  the  details  of  actual  Govermnent. 

In  truth.  Mr.  Chairman,  there  are  no  original  principles  of  GovemmeyU  at  all.  No- 
vel and  strange  as  the  idea  may  appear,  it  is  nevertheless,  strictly  true,  in  the  sense 
in  which  I  announce  it.  There  are  no  original  principles,  existmg  in  the  nature  of 
things  and  independent  of  agreement,  to  which  Government  must  of  necessity  conform, 
in  order  to  be  either  legitimate  or  philosophical.  The  principles  of  Government,  are 
those  principles  only,  which  the  people  who  form  the  Government,  choose  lo  adopt  and 
apply  to  themsehes.  Principles  do  not  precede,  but  spring  out  of  Government.  If  this 
should  be  considered  a  dangerous  novelty  in  tliis  age  of  iriiprovement,  when  all  old 
fashioned  things  are  rejected  as  worthless ;  let  us  test  the  doctrine  by  reference  to  ex- 
amples. In  Turkey,  the  Government  is  centered  in  one  man;  in  England,  it  resides 
in  King,  Lords,  and  Commons;  and  in  the  R.epublicsof  the  United  Suites,  we  profess 
to  repose  it  in  the  people  alone.    The  principles  of  all  these  Governments  are  essenti- 


70 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


ally  different ;  and  yet  will  it  be  said  that  the  Governments  of  Turkey  and  England  are 
no  Governments  at  all,  or  not  legitimate  Governments,  because  in  them,  the  will  of  a 
majority  does  not  give  the  rule  ?  ^  Or,  will  it  be  said,  that  our  own  Governments  are  not 
legitimate,  because  they  do  not  conform  to  the  despotic  principles  of  Turkey,  nor  re- 
cognise the  aristocracy  of  England  ?  If  there  be  these  original  principles  at  all,  we 
must  presume  that  they  are  uniform  in  themselves,  and  universal  in  their  application. 
It  will  not  do  to  say  tliat  there  is  one  principle  for  one  place,  and  another  principle  for 
another  place.  The  conclusion  resulting  from  the  reasoning  of  gentlemen  will  be, 
that  there  is  one  Government  in  the  world  which  is  rcaUij  a  Government,  rightful  and 
legitimate  ;  and  all  other  forms  of  social  compact,  however  long,  or  however  firmly 
established,  are  no  Governments  at  all.  Every  Government  is  legitimate  which  springs 
directly  from  the  will  of  the  people,  or  to  which  the  people  have  consented  to  give  al- 
legiance. And  I  am  not  going  too  far,  in  asserting  that  Governments  are  free  or 
otherwise,  only  in  proportion  as  the  people  have  been  consulted  in  forming  them,  and 
as  their  rulers  are  directly  responsible  to  them  for  the  execution  of  their  will.  It  mat 
ters  not  what  form  they  assume,  nor  who  are  the  immediate  depositories  of  political 
power.  It  may  suit  the  purposes  of  the  people,  as  it  once  suited  those  of  Rome,  to 
invest  all  authority  in  a  Dictator;  and  if  the  people  choose  this  form  of  Government; 
if  their  interest  and  safety  require  that  they  shall  submit  to  it,  what  original  principle 
is  there  which  renders  it  illegitimate  ?  If  the  majority  possess  all  power,  they  pos- 
sess the  power  to  surrender  their  power.  And  if  it  be  just  and  wise  that  they  should 
do  so,  it  is  still  their  own  Government,  and  no  one  can  impugn  its  legitimacy. 

I  have  thus,  Mr.  Chairman,  endeavored  to  prove,  that  there  is  not  in  nature,  nor 
even  in  sound  political  science,  any  fundamental  principle  applicable  to  this  subject, 
which  is  mandatory  upon  us.  We  are  at  perfect  liberty  to  choose  our  own  principle  ; 
to  consult  all  the  circumstances  which  attend  our  condition,  and  to  mould  our  Gov- 
ernment as  our  interests  and  necessities  may  require.  We  are  now  to  ascertain  what 
rule  of  representation,  those  interests  and  those  necessities  suggest,  as  wise,  just  and 
expedient. 

1  admit,  as  a  general  proposition,  that  in  free  Governrnents,  power  ought  to  be  given 
to  the  majority  ;  and  why  The  rule  is  founded  in  the  idea  that  there  is  an  identity, 
though  not  an  cyu«,/i/!// of  interests,  in  the  several  members  of  "the  body  politic:  in 
which  case  the  presumption  naturally  arises,  that  the  greater  number  possess  the 
greater  interest.  But  the  rule  no  longer  applies,  when  the  reason  of  it  fails.  And 
liere  we  should  be  careful  to  remember,  that  the  question  does  not  relate  to  the  admin- 
istration of  an  actual  Government.  It  is  not  contended  that  the  Legislature,  when 
the  Government  shall  go  into  operation,  ought  not  to  adopt  the  rule  of  a  majority  in 
acts  of  ordinary  Legislation.  The  question  before  us,  is  prior  to  actual  Government: 
it  is  not  whether  a  majority  shall  rule  in  the  Legislatvire,  but  of  2vhat  elements  that 
majority  shall  be  composed.  If  the  interests  of  the  several  parts  of  the  Commonwealth 
were  identical,  it  would  be,  we  admit,  safe  and  proper  that  a  majority  of  persons  only 
should  give  the  rule  of  political  power.  But  our  interests  are  not  identical,  and  the 
difference  between  us  arises  from  property  alone.  We  therefore  contend  that  property- 
ought  to  be  considered,  in  fixing  the  basis  of  representation. 

What,  Sir,  are  the  constituent  elements  of  society  ?  Persons  and  property.  What 
are  the  subjects  of  Legislation  ?  Persons  and  property.  Was  there  ever  a  society 
seen  on  earth,  which  consisted  only  of  men,  women,  and  children  .?  The  very  idea  of 
society,  carries  with  it  the  idea  of  property,  as  its  necessary  and  inseparable  atten- 
dant. History  cannot  show  any  form  of  the  social  compact,  at  any  time,  or  in  any 
place,  into  which  property  did  not  enter  as  a  constituent  element,  nor  one  in  which 
that  element  did  not  enjoy  protection  in  a  greater  or  less  degree.  Nor  was  there  ever 
a  society  in  which  the  protection  once  extended  to  property,  was  afterwards  withdrawn, 
which  did  not  fall  an  easy  prey  to  violence  and  disorder.  Society  cannot  exist  with- 
out property  ;  it  constitutes  the  full  lialf  of  its  being.  Take  away  all  protection  from 
property,  and  our  next  business  is  to  cut  each  other's  throats.  All  experience  proves 
this.  The  safety  of  men  depends  on  the  safety  of  property ;  the  rights  of  persons 
must  mingle  in  the  ruin  of  the  rights  of  property.  And  shall  it  not  then  be  protected.? 
Sir,  your  Government  cannot  move  an  inch  without  property.  Are  you  to  have  no 
political  head  ?  No  Legislature  to  make  laws  ?  No  Judiciary  to  interpret  them  ?  No 
Executive  to  enforce  them.?  And  if  you  are  to  have  all  these  departments,  will  they 
render  their  services  out  of  mere  grace  and  favor,  and  for  the  honor  and  glory  of  the 
thing  ?  Not  in  these  money  loving  days,  depend  on  it.  If  we  would  find  patriotism 
thus  disinterested,  we  must  indeed,  go  back  to  a  period  prior  to  Bible  history.  And 
what  are  the  subjects  upon  which  the  law-making  power  is  called  to  act.?  Persons 
and  property.  To  these  two  subjects,  and  not  to  one  of  them  alone,  is  the  business  of 
legislation  confined.  And  of  these  two,  it  may  be  fairly  asserted  that  property  is  not 
only  of  equal,  but  even  of  more  importance.  The  laws  which  relate  to  our  personal- 
actions,  with  reference  to  the  body  pohtic  ;  which  prescribe  the  duties  which  we  owe 
to  the  public,  or  denne  and  punish  crime,  are  comparatively  few  in  number,  and  sim- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


71 


pie  in  their  provisions.  And  one  half  of  these  few  find  their  best  sancti(Jiis  in  public 
opinion.  But  the  ramifications  of  the  rights  of  property,  are  infinite.  Volume  upon 
volume,  which  few  of  us,  I  fear,  are  able  to  understand,  ai"e  required  to  contain  even 
the  leading  principles  relating  to  them,  and"  yet  new  relations  are  every  day  arising, 
which  reqmre  continual  interpositions  of  the  Legislative  power.  If  then,  Sir,  pro- 
perty is  thus  necessary  to  the  very  being  of  societ}' ;  thus  indispensable  to  every  move- 
ment of  Government;  if  it  be  that  subject  upon  which  Government  chiefly  acts;  is 
it  not,  I  would  ask,  entitled  to  such  protection  as  shall  be  above  all  suspicion,  and  free 
from  every  hazard .'  It  appears  to  me  that  I  need  only  announce  the  proposition,  to 
secure  the  assent  of  every  gentleman  present. 

Sir,  the  obligations  of  man  in  liis  social  state  are  two-fold  ;  to  bear  arms,  and  to  pay 
taxes  for  the  support  of  Government.  The  obligation  to  bear  arms,  results  from  the 
duty  which  sooiety  owes  him,  to  protect  his  rights  of  person.  The  society  which  pro- 
tects me,  I  am  bound  to  protect  in  return.  Tiie  obligation  to  pay  taxes,  results  from 
the  protection  extended  to  property.  Not  a  protection  against  foreign  enemies  ;  not  a 
protection  by  swords  and  bayonets  merel}' ;  but  a  protection  derived  from  a  prompt 
and  correct  administration  of  justice  ;  a  protection  against  the  violence,  the  fraud,  or 
the  injustice  of  my  neighbor.  In  this  protection,  the  owner  of  property  is  alone  in- 
terested. Here,  then:  is  the  plain  agreement  between  Government  on  the  one  hand, 
and  the  tax-paying  citizen  on  the  other.  It  is  an  agreement  which  results,  of  neces- 
sity, from  the  social  compact;  and  when  the  consideration  is  fairly  paid,  how  canyon 
honestly  withhold  tiie  equivalent?  Indeed,  gentlemen  adroit  that  property  is  entitled 
to  protection  ;  and  that  uur  property  is  entitled  to  it,  when  they  ofier  us  guarantees. 
I  shall  have  occasion  to  speak  of  these  by  and  by ;  at  present  I  will  only  say,  that 
although  they  are  certainly  oifered  in  good  faith,  tliey  would  prove  in  practice,  wholly 
unavailing. 

Let  us  now  inquire  of  ichat  kind,  this  protection  must  be,  if  we  would  give  it  any 
value.  I  agree  with  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper  {Jslx.  Green)  that  it  cannot  be  any 
thing  short  of  a  direct  influence  in  the  Government. 

There  is  one  consequence,  supposed  to  resrdt  from  our  doctrine  on  this  subject,  which 
all  the  gentlemen  opposed  to  us,  seem  to  contemplate  with  a  sort  of  horror  :  ''What." 
say  they,  will  you  balance  money  against  the  bone  and  sinew  of  the  countrj^  ?  Will 
you  say  "that  fifty  men  on  this  side  of  tlie  mountain,  shall  he  counted  against  one  hun- 
dred and  fifty  on  the  other  .'" 

Sh,  no  man  supposes  that  property  should  be  represented  eo  7io??ime  ;  it  would  be 
grossly  absurd  to  place  a  bag  of  guineas  upon  your  table,  and  call  it  a  constituent  en- 
titled to  representation.  We  do  not  propose  to  represent  money,  but  the  rights  and  in- 
terests ichich  spring  from  the  possession  of  iiioneij.  This  is  not  a  metaphysical  refine- 
ment, an  unmeaning  distinction.  It  is  easily  comprehended,  and  it  ought  to  remove 
every  shadow  of  odlaai  from  our  proposition,  considered  in  this  view.  If  men  enter 
into  the  social  compact  upon  unequal  terms  ;  if  one  man  brings  into  the  partnership, 
his  rights  of  person  alone,  and  another  brings  into  it,  equal  rights  of  person  and  all 
the  rights  of  property  beside,  can  they  be  said,  to  have  an  equal  interest  in  the  com- 
mon stock.'  Shall  not  he  who  has  most  at  stake  ;  who  has,  not  only  a  greater  inter- 
est, but  a  peculiar  interest  in  society,  possess  an  authority  proportioned  to  that  interest, 
and  adequate  to  its  protection?  I  certainly  do  not  mean  to  say,  that  the  right  of  suf- 
frage in  the  indicidual  ought  to  be  in  proportion  to  his  property  ;  that  if  a  man  own- 
ing one  thousand  dollars  is  entitled  to  one  vote,  a  man  owning  two  thousand  is  en- 
titled to  two  votes.  I  do  not  expect  to  be  so  understood  after  the  admission  which 
I  have  already  made,  in  announcing  the  precise  limit  to  which  my  proposition  extends. 
Where  there  is  an  identity  of  interest,  no  difference  should  be  made. in  the  rights  of 
the  voter,  in  consequence  of  a  difference  in  the  extent  or  degree  of  that  interest.  But 
where  there  is  not  this  identity  ;  where  there  are  different  and  distinct  m.iQx&-6ts,  exist- 
ing in  masses  sufficiently  large  to  form  important  objects  in  the  Government,  (as  I 
shall  presently  show  is  the  precise  case  before  us.)  there  tlie  rule  emphatically  applies. 

The  view  which  we  are  now  taking,  presents  a  sufficient  answer  to  an  argument 
urged  the  other  day  by  the  eloquent  geiitleman  from  Norfolk,  (Mr.  Taylor.)  He  told 
VIS  that  representative  and  constituent  were  correlative  terms  :  that  there  could  be  no 
notion  of  a  constituent  without  a  power  of  choice,  and  that  it  would  be  absurd  to  at- 
tribute this  power  to  a  mass  of  metal.  Sir,  money  is  in  no  sense,  the  constituent. 
Man  is  the  constituent,  and  money  has  no  other  concern  in  the  matter,  than  to  regu- 
late and  graduate  the  rights  and  powers,  wliich  man,  the  constituent  shall  enjoy  and 
exercise.  Such  a  constituent  has  more  interest  in  the  community  than  another,  and 
therefore  he  has,  a  natural  right,  if  gentlemen  please  ;  certainly  a  just  right  to  a  grea- 
ter weight  in  the  management  of  its  concerns. 

Here  Mr.  Upshur  gave  way  for  a  motion  of  Mr.  Taylor  of  Norfolk,  that  the  Com- 
mittee rise.  The  gentleman,  he  said,  must  feel  exhausted,  and  it  was  not  probable  that 
he  could  finish  liis  very  able  argument  during  the  present  sitting  of  the  Committee  : 


72 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


with  a  viev/,  therefore,  to  the  accommodation  of  the  gentleman,  as  well  as  to  allow 
the  Committee  time  for  further  reflection,  he  moved  that  it  now  rise. 

The  motion  prevailed,  the  Committee  rose,  and  thereupon  the  Convention  immedi- 
ately adjourned. 


WEDNESDAY,  Octobkr  28,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  eleven  o'clock,  and  its  sitting  was  opened  with  prayer  by 
the  Rev.  Mr.  Sykes,  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

Mr.  Fitzhug-h,  from  the  Committee  on  Compensation,  reported,  in  part,  as  follows  : 

The  Committee  appointed  to  enquire  into,  and  report  on  the  compensation  to  be 
allowed  the  officers  of  the  Convention,  have  agreed  to  the  following  resolution  : 

Resolved,  That  five  dollars  per  day  be  allowed  each  of  the  Clerks  of  this  Conven- 
tion, for  every  day's  actual  attendance  on  said  Committees.  Which  was  agreed  to  by 
the  Convention. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Doddridge,  the  Convention  then  proceeded  to  the  Order  of  the 
Day,  and  again  went  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour  in  the  Chair; 
and  the  question  still  being  on  the  following  amendment,  proposed  by  Mr.  Green  of 
Culpeper,  to  the  first  resolution,  reported  by  the  Committee  on  tiie  Legislative  De- 
partment of  Government,  which  resolution  reads  as  follows,  viz  : 

Resolved,  That  in  the  apportionment  of  representation,  in  the  House  of  Delegates, 
regard  should  be  had  to  the  white  population  exclusively,  viz  :  to  strike  out  the  word 
"  exclusively,''  and  to  insert  in  lieu  thereof  ^'  and  taxation  combined." 

Judge  Upshur  continued  his  argument. 

Mr.  Chairman, — I  have  to  express  my  acknowledgments  to  the  Committee  for  the 
indulgence  extended  to  me  on  yesterday  ;  an  indulgence  which  I  should  not  have 
asked,  had  it  not  been  necessary. 

And  now,  it  may  perhaps,  be  proper,  before  entering  further  into  the  discussion, 
that  I  should  recapitulate,  and  I  will  do  it  in  as  few  words  as  possible,  the  leading 
propositions  which  it  has  been  my  object  to  prove.    And  I  do  this  only  that  the  con- 
tinuity of  the  argument,  may  be  preserved  in  the  minds  of  such  gentlemen  as  may 
have  been  pleased  to  attend  to  it.    I  commenced  with  the  broad  proposition  that  there 
is  no  original,  abstract,  a  priori  right,  in  the  majority  of  any  community,  to  control 
the  minority.    That  if  such  a  right  did  exist  at  all,  it  must  be  either  by  positive  agree- 
ment, or  by  the  law  of  nature.    As  it  was  not  pretended  that  it  existed  by  agree- 
ment, I  then  endeavored  to  demonstrate  that  it  was  not  derived  from  another  and  a 
higher  source.    I  admitted  as  a  general  proposition,  (an  abstract  proposition,  if  gen- 
tlemen prefer  the  terra,)  that  it  might  possibly  be  a  safe  general  rule,  that  the  majority 
should  govern.    But  here  permit  me  to  remark  on  the  doctrine  I  subsequently  ad- 
vanced, that  the  allowing  a  portion  of  political  power  to  property,  does  by  no  means 
violate  that  rule.    This  may  perhaps  appear  somewhat  paradoxical,  but  it  is  suscepti- 
ble of  proof,  without  going  very  deeply  into  metaphysics.    The  question  is  as  to  what 
time  the  principle  shall  apply.    If  it  applies  only  after  the  Government  has  been  es- 
tablished, then  those  who  established  the  Government,  have  already  determined  in 
what  form  the  right  of  the  majority  shall  be  exerted  ;  and,  if  they  have  said,  that  the 
majority  which  governs  shall  be  constituted  in  "part  by  wealth,  and  in  part  by  the 
number  of  people,  the  rule,  that  the  majority  shall  govern,  is  not  violated.    But  prior 
to  the  existence  of  any  Government,  the  question  is,  what  rules  it  is  icisest  to  adopt. 
I  am  willing  to  admit,  that  after  the  Government  has  been  established,  and  put  into 
operation,  it  is  a  safe  and  proper  rule,  that  the  will  of  a  majority  shall  regulate  the 
administration  of  its  affairs  ;  but  this  admission  leaves  the  question  still  open,  as  to 
the  materials  of  which  that  majority  shall  be  composed, 

I  further  endeavored  to  prove,  that  it  was  a  fair  and  just  principle  that  property  is 
entitled  to  protection  :  first,  because  it  is  an  important  constituent  element  of  society  ; 
without  it,  society  could  not  exist  for  a  moment,  and  if  it  did  exist,  could  not  move  a 
single  inch  :  Secondly,  because,  in  the  operations  of  Government,  as  they  are  con- 
cerned in  legislation,  the  most  numerous  and  most  interesting  class  of  subjects,  on 
which  the  power  is  to  be  exerted,  are  all  derived  from  property,  and  intimately  con- 
nected with  it.  It  must,  therefore,  necessarily  receive  protection,  both  in  the  form, 
and  in  the  fundamental  principles  of  Government,  of  which,  property  is  always  a 
part. 

I  will  now  proceed  to  the  further  development  of  this  part  of  the  subject.  Sir,  it 
is  worthy  of  inquiry,  in  what  the  principles  for  which  we  contend  differ  from  those, 
in  defence  of  which,  our  ancestors  of  the  American  Colonies,  felt  themselves  autho- 
rised to  enter  into  that  great  and  arduous  struggle,  by  which  they  shook  off  tlie  yoke 
of  the  mother  country.    What  was,  in  the  early  days  of  the  Revolution,  the  topic  of 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


73 


complaint,  which  filled  every  mouth,  and  troubled  every  heart  in  these  Colonies  ?  It 
was  the  attempt  to  tax  the  people  of  the  Colonies,  without  allowing  them  any  voice 
in  the  matter.  Here,  then,  is  our  doctrine  already  established  :  a  doctrine  testified, 
at  the  utmost  hazard,  by  all  the  people  of  this  country,  that  those  who  pay  the  taxes, 
ought  alone  to  have  the  power  of  imposing  them.  They  declared  it  to  be  oppression 
of  the  very  worst  kind,  that  they  should  be  compelled  to  pay  a  tax,  while  the}-  had 
no  voice  in  imposing  it.  But  why  was  this  doctnne  any  more  true,  when  applied  to 
America  and  England,  than  in  its  bearing  on  matters  now  before  us  ?  If  it  be  a  dic- 
tate of  eternal  justice,  that  those  who  pay  a  tax  ought  to  have  a  voice  in  the  imposi- 
tion of  it,  why  is  it  not  as  just  now,  and  here,  as  it  was  then,  and  there  ?  This  is 
that  protection  which  property  claims,  and  insists  upon  :  and  which  it  has  always  en- 
joyed, under  every  Government,  which  has  proved  either  lasting  or  wise.  And  v.-hy 
does  it  require  this  particular  form  of  protection  ?  In  reply.  I  ask,  when  you  lav  a  tax, 
by  what  rule  is  it  to  be  imposed  .''  By  the  ability  of  the  taxed  party  to  pay  ;  and  that 
ability  is  regulated  by  the  extent  of  his  property.  But,  who  can  ascertain  the  extent 
of  that  ability,  but  the  party  himself.?  What  right  has  another  to  judge  of  it 
What  right  has  the  man  who  owns  no  land,  to  say  to  his  neighbour,  you  own  a 
large  and  splendid  farm,  well  stocked  with  slaves  ;  you  ought  to  pay  a  tax  of  a  thou- 
sand dollars  Would  you  not  call  it  very  presumptuous  in  him  to  undertake  to 
measure  the  extent  and  value  of  your  property,  and  to  fix  the  price  at  which  you, 
ought  to  purchase  the  protection  of  it  from  Government Would  you  not  reply  to 
him,  you  cannot  tell  the  labour,  care  and  anxiety,  attending  the  possession  of  this 
property,  nor  form  any  idea  at  v/hat  cost  it  is,  that  I  derive  the  little  income  I  receive 
from  this  soil.  You  do  not  know  how  small  that  income  is  ;  and  would,  no  doubt,  be 
surprised  to  learn,  that  splendid  as  it  seems  to  you,  it  does  not  yield  me  one  half  tlie 
sum  at  which  you  say  it  ought  to  be  taxed  ?"  And  would  not  this  be  a  fair  answer  ? 
It  is  an  admitted  principle,  that  property  must  pay  for  its  own  protection  ;  but  who 
can  tell  what  that  protection  is  worth,  so  well  as  he  who  receives  it  ?  Another  man 
knows  little,  or  nothing  about  the  matter.  He  may  impose  upon  it  a  tax  which  is 
greater  than  its  annual  income  ;  and  if  it  be  an  annual  tax,  the  owner  would  of 
course  rather  surrender  his  property,  than  consent  to  paj^  it. 

Again  :  1  must  remind  the  gentlemen,  that  they  have  admitted  the  principle,  that 
property  must  be  protected,  and  protected  in  the  very  form  now  proposed  ;  they  are 
obliged  to  admit  it.  It  would  be  a  wild  and  impracticable  scheme  of  Government, 
which  did  not  admit  it.  Among  all  the  various  and  numerous  propositions,  lying  upon 
your  table,  is  there  one  v/hich  goes  the  length  of  proposing  miivcrsal.  sujjrage? 
There  is  none.  Yet  this  subject  is  in  dii-ect  connexion  with  that.  Why  do  yon  not 
admit  a  pauper  to  vote  ?  He  is  a  person  :  he  counts  one  in  your  numerical  majority. 
In  rights  strictly  personal,  he  has  as  much  interest  in  the  Government  as  any  other 
citizen.  He  is  liable  to  commit  the  same  offences,  and  to  become  exposed  to  the 
same  punishments  as  the  rich  man.  Why,  then,  shall  he  not  vote  Because,  there- 
by, he  would  receive  an  influence  over  property  ;  and  all  who  own  it,  feel  it  to  be 
unsafe,  to  put  the  power  of  controlling  it,  into  the  hands  of  those  who  are  not  the 
owners.  If  you  go  on  population  alone,  as  the  basis  of  representation,  you  will  be 
obliged  to  go  the  length  of  giving  the  elective  franchise  to  every  human  being  over 
twenty-one  years  ;  yes,  and  under  tv/enty-one  years,  on  whom  your  penal  laws  take 
effect  :  an  experiment,  which  has  met  with  nothing  but  utter  and  disastrous  failure, 
wherever  it  has  been  tried.  No,  Mr.  Chairman  :  Let  us  be  consistent.  Let  us  openly 
acknowledge  the  truth  ;  let  us  boldly  take  the  bull  by  the  horns,  and  incorporate  this 
influence  of  property  as  a  leading  principle  in  our  Constitution.  We  cannot  be 
otherwise  consistent  with  ourselves. 

I  was  surprised  to  hear  the  assertion  made  by  gentlemen,  on  the  other  side,  that 
property  can  protect  itself.  What  is  the  meaning  of  such  a  proposition  ?  Is  there 
any  thing  in  property,  to  exert  this  self-protecting  influence,  but  the  political  power 
which  always  a  tends  it Is  there  any  thing  in  mere  property  alone,  in  itself  consi- 
dered, to  exert  any  such  influence  .?  Can  a  bag  of  golden  guineas,  if  placed  upon 
that  table,  protect  itself?  Can  it  protect  its  owner.?  I  do  not  knew  what  magic 
power  the  gentlemen  allude  to.  If  it  is  to  have  no  influence  in  the  Government, 
what  and  where  is  its  power  to  protect  itself.'  Perhaps  the  power  to  buy  clF  vio- 
lence ;  to  buy  off"  the  barbarian  who  comes  to  lay  it  waste,  by  a  reward  which  will 
but  invite  a  double  swarm  of  barbarians  to  return  nextj^ear.  Is  this  one  of  the  modes 
alluded  to  .?  This,  I  am  well  assured,  never  entered  into  the  clear  mind  of  the  very- 
intelligent  gentleman  from  Frederick  (Mr.  Cooke.)  How  else,  then,  ma\-  property  be 
expected  to  protect  itself?  It  may  be  answered,  by  the  influence  which  it  gives  to 
its  owner.  But  in  what  channels  is  that  influence  exerted  ?  It  is  the  influence 
which  prevents  the  poor  debtor  from  going  against  the  will  of  his  creditor  ;  which 
forbids  the  dependent  poor  man  from  exerting  any  tiling  like  independence ,  either  in 
conduct  or  opinion  ;  an  influence  which  appeals  to  avarice  on  both  sides,  and  depends 
for  its  effect  on  rousing  the  worst  and  basest  of  passions,  and  destroying  all  freedom 

10 


74 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


of  will,  all  independence  of  opinion.  Is  it  desirable  to  establish  such  an  influence  as 
this  ?  an  influence  which  marches  to  power  through  the  direct  road  to  the  worst,  and 
most  monstrous  of  aristocracies,  the  aristocracy  of  the  purse  ?  an  influence  which 
derives  its  effect  ifrom  the  corruption  of  all  principle,  the  blinding  of  the  judgment 
and  the  prostration  of  ail  moral  feeling  ?  and  whose  power  is  built  on  that  form  of 
aristocracy,  most  of  all  to  be  dreaded  in  a  free  Government  ?  The  gentleman  ap- 
peals to  fact,  and  says  that  property  always  has  protected  itself,  under  every  form  of 
Government.  The  fact  is  not  admitted.  Property  never  has  protected  itself  long, 
except  by  the  power  which  it  possessed  in  the  Government.  There  may,  indeed,  ex- 
ist in  some  part  of  the  world,  a  form  of  Government  like  that  which  the  gentlemen 
wish  to  establish  in  the  amended  Constitution,  where  this  influence  is  excluded  ;  but 
if  there  does,  it  is  utterly  unknown  to  me. 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  will  submit  to  the  gentlemen;  not  tauntingly,  but  respectfully, 
and  by  way  of  illustration,  this  proposition.  Will  they  agree  to  pay  all  the  taxes  and 
to  take  all  the  representation.?  Sa-,  they  will  not  accept  the  offer  ;  nor  ought  they  to 
accept  it :  it  is  not  seriously  made.  But  still  it  may  serve  in  some  degree  to  show  how 
necessary  is  the  connexion  between  the  duty  of  paying  the  tax,  and  the  right  of  im- 
posing it ;  at  tlie  same  time  that  it  will  indicate  the  only  point  on  which  we  feel  alarm. 

Every  view,  Mr.  Chairman,  wliich  1  am  capable  of  taking  of  this  subject,  has  led 
me  to  the  conclusion  that  property  is  entitled  to  its  influence  in  Government.  But  if 
this  be  not  true  as  a  gmeral  proposition,  it  is  true  as  to  vs. 

Gentlemen  have  iallen  into  a  great  error  both  in  their  reasoning  and  in  their  con- 
clusion, by  considering  the  subject  before  us,  as  if  we  were  now  for  the  first  time,  en- 
termg  into  a  social  compact.  If  we  stood  in  the  nakedness  of  nature,  with  no  rights 
but  such  as  are  strictly  personal,  we  should  all  come  together  upon  precisely  equal 
ground.  But  such  is  not  the  case.  We  cannot  now  enter  into  a  new  compact  upon 
the  basis  ol"  original  equality ;  v/e  bring  more  than  our  fair  proportion,  into  the  com- 
mon stock.  For  fifty-four  years  we  have  been  associated  together,  under  the  provi- 
sions of  an  actual  Government.  A  great  variety  of  rights  and  interests,  and  a  great 
variety  of  feelings  dear  to  the  heart  and  connected  Avith  those  rights  and  interests, 
have  grown  up  among  us.  They  have  grown  up  and  flourished  under  a  Government 
whicli  stood  pledged  to  protect  them  ;  that  Government  itself,  was  but  a  system  of 
pledges,  interchangeably  given  among  those  who  were  parties  to  it,  that  all  the  rights 
and  all  the  interests  which  it  invited  into  existence,  should  be  protected  by  the  power 
of  the  whole.  Under  this  system,  our  property  has  been  acquired ;  and  we  felt  safe 
in  the  acquisition,  because  under  the  provisions  of  that  system,  we  possessed  a  power 
of  self-protection.  And  by  whom  was  that  system  ordained  ?  Not  indeed,  by  the 
same  men  who  are  now  here  assembled,  but  by  the  same  community,  which  is  now 
here  represented.  It  was  the  yeople  of  Virginia,  who  gave  us  these  pledges  ;  and  it  is 
the  people  of  Virginia  who  now  claim  a  right  to  withdraw  them.  Sir,  can  it  be  fair, 
or  just,  or  honourable,  to  do  this.''  The  rights  and  interests  which  you  are  now  seek- 
ing to  prostrate,  you  yourselves  invited  into  being.  Under  your  own  distributions  of 
political  power,  you  gave  us  an  assurance  that  our  property  should  be  safe,  for  you  put 
the  protection  of  it  into  our  own  hands.  With  what  justice  or  propriety  then,  can 
you  now  say  to  us,  that  the  rights  and  interests  which  you  have  thus  fostered  until 
they  have  become  the  chief  pillars  of  your  strength,  shall  now  be  prostrated;  melted 
into  the  general  mass,  and  be  re-distributed,  according  to  your  will  and  pleasure  ? 
Nay,  Sir,  you  do  not  even  leave  us  the  option  whether  to  come  into  your  measures  or 
not.  With  all  these  rights,  and  all  tliese  interests,  and  all  these  feelings,  we  are  to  be 
forced,  whether  willing  or  unwilling ;  we  are  to  he  forced  by  the  unyielding  power  of 
a  majority,  into  a  compact  whicli  violates  them  all !  Is  there  not.  Sir,  something  of 
violence  and  fraud,  in  this  ?  Gentlemen  are  too  courteous  to  suppose  me  capable  of 
charging  iniquity  of  this  sort,  upon  them.  They  have  too  just  an  estimate,  both  of 
themselves  and  of  me,  to  attribute  to  me  so  offensive  a  thought.  If  I  really  intended 
to  express  it,  it  might  indeed  expose  me  to  just  censure ;  but  it  would  be  worthless  as 
an  argument.  I  urge  this  view  of  the  subject,  because  I  feel  entirely  assured,  that  if 
gentlemen  can  discern  either  fraiid  or  violence  in  their  measures,  they  will  themseh'^es, 
be  the  first  to  abandon  them. 

I  am  sensible,  Sir,  that  there  is  nothing  in  this  view  of  the  subject,  unless  the  rights 
and  interests  to  which  I  have  alluded,  are  of  a  peculiar  and  distinctive  character. 
What  then  are  they  I  purposely  wave  all  subjects  of  minor  importance,  as  too  in- 
considerable to  give  any  rule.  But  a  peculiar  interest,  and  a  great,  and  important, 
and  leadi  t{>;  interest,  is  presented  in  our  slaves;  an  interest  which  predominates 
throughout  the  Eastern  divisions  of  the  State,  whilst  it  is  of  secondary  consequence 
West  of  the  Blue  Ridge.  And  what,  let  us  now  inquire,  are  its  claims  to  considera- 
tion 

Will  you  not  be  surprised  to  hear.  Sir,  that  the  slave  population  of  Virginia  pays  30 
per  cent,  of  the  whole  revenue  derived  from  taxation  ?  Did  there  ever  exist  in  any 
community,  a  separate  and  peculiar  interest,  of  more  commanding  magnitude  ?  But 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


75 


this  is  not  all.  It  affords  almost  the  whole  productive  labour  of  one  half  of  the  Com- 
monwealth. What  difference  does  it  make  whether  a  certain  amount  of  labour  is 
brought  into  the  common  stock,  by  four  hundred  thousand  slaves,  or  four  hundred 
thousand  freemen  ?  The  gain  is  the  same  to  the  aggregate  wealth ;  which  is  but  an- 
other name  for  the  aggregate  power,  of  the  State.  And  here  permit  me  to  remark, 
that  of  all  the  subjects  of  taxation  which  ever  yet  existed,  this  has  been  the  most  op- 
pressively dealt  with.  You" not  only  tax  our  slaves  as  property,  but  you  also  tax  their 
labour.  Let  me  illustrate  the  idea  by  an  example.  The  farmer  who  derives  his  in- 
come from  the  labour  of  slaves,  pays  a  tax  for  those  slaves,  considered  as  property. 
With  that  income  so  derived,  he  purchases  a  carriage,  or  a  horse,  and  these  again  are 
taxed.  You  first  tax  the  slave  who  makes  the  money,  and  then  you  tax  the  article 
which  the  money  procures.  Is  not  this  a  great  injustice;  a  gross  inequality.?  No 
such  tax  is  laid  upon  the  white  labourer  of  the  V\^est,  ar.d  yet  the  product  of  his  la- 
bour is  of  no  more  importance  to  the  general  welfare,  than  the  same  product  from  the 
labour  of  slaves.  Here  then,  is  a  striking  peculiarity  in  our  property  ;  a  peculiarity 
which  sujects  it  to  double  impositions,  and  which  therefore,  demands  a  double  security. 

There  is  yet  Sir,  another  view  of  this  subject  which  is  not  only  of  importance  with 
reference  to  the  immediate  topic  under  consideration,  but  w^hich  furnishes  a  strong  ar- 
gument against  the  change  which  gentlemen  contemplate.  One  eleventh*  of  the 
power  which  we  possess  in  the  national  councils,  is  derived  from  slaves.  We  obtain 
that  power  by  counting  three-fiflhs  of  the  whole  number,  in  apportioning  representa- 
tion among  the  several  States.  Sir,  we  live  in  times  of  great  political  changes.  Some 
new  doctrine  or  other  is  broached  almost  every  day ;  and  it  is  impossible  to  foresee 
what  changes  in  our  political  condition,  a  single  year  may  bring  about.  Suppose  a 
proposition  should  be  made  to  alter  the  Clonstitution  of  the  United  States  in  the  parti- 
cular now  under  consideration;  what  could  Virginia  say,  after  embracing  such  a  basis 
as  gentlemen  propose  ?  Would  she  not  be  told  by  those  who  abhor  this  species  of 
property,  and  who  are  restive  under  the  power  which  it  confers,  5^ou  have  abandon- 
ed this  principle  in  your  own  institutions,  and  with  what  face  can  you  claim  it,  in 
your  connexions  with  us.''"  What  reply  could  she  make  to  such  an  appeal  as  this.-* 
Sir,  the  moral  power  of  Virginia  has  always  been  felt,  and  deeply  felt,  in  all  the  im- 
portant concerns  of  this  nation ;  and  that  power  has  been  derived  from  the  unchang- 
ing consistency  of  her  principles,  and  her  invincible  firmness  in  maintaining  them. 
Is  she  now  prepared  to  surrender  it,  in  pursuit  of  a  speculative  principle  of  doubtful 
propriety,  at  best,  and  certainly  not  demanded  by  any  thing  in  her  present  condition.'' 
If  you  adopt  the  combined  basis  proposed  by  the  amendment,  this  danger  is  avoided. 
You  may  then  reply  to  the  taunting  question  above  supposed,  "  we  have  not  abandon- 
ed our  principle  ;  on  the  contrary,  we  have  extended  it.  Instead  of  three-fifths,  all  our 
slaves  are  considered  in  our  representation.  It  is  true,  we  do  not  count  them  as  nu  ji, 
but  their  influence  is  still  preserved,  as  taxable  subjects.  The  principle  is  the  same, 
although  the  modes  of  applying  it  may  be  difierent.  V/ e  are  not  inconsistent  \\ath 
ourselves."  To  my  mind,  there  is  much  force  in  this  argument,  and  I  think  that  the 
gentlemen  opposed  to  us,  to  whom  the  influence  of  our  common  State  is  as  dear  as  it 
is  to  us,  cannot  but  feel  and  acknowledge  it.  The  topic  is  fruitful  of  imposing  reflec- 
tions ;  but  I  will  not  pursue  it  farther. 

I  have  thus  endeavored  to  prove,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  whether  it  be  right  as  a  gene- 
ral principle  or  not,  that  property  should  possess  an  influence  in  Government,  it  is 
certainly  right'as  to  us.  It  is  right,  because  our  property,  so  far  as  slaves  are  concern- 
ed, is  peculiar ;  because  it  is  of  miposing  magnitude  ;  because  it  affords  almost  a  full 
half  of  the  productive  labour  of  the  State;  because  it  is  exposed  to  peculiar  imposi- 
tions, and  therefore  to  peculiar  hazards;  and  because  it  is  the  interest  of  the  whole 
Commonwealth,  that  its  power  should  not  be  taken  away.  I  admit  that  we  have  no 
danger  to  apprehend,  except  from  oppressive  and  unequal  taxation;  no  other  ir justice 
can  reasonably  be  feared.  It  is  impossible  tliat  any  free  Government,  can  establish  an 
open  and  palpable  inequality  of  rights.  Resistance  would  be  the  necessary  conse- 
quence ;  and  thus  the  evil  would  soon  cure  itself.  But  the  pow-er  of  taxation  often 
works  insidiously.  The  very  victim  who  feels  its  oppression,  may  be  ignorant  of  the 
source  from  which  it  springs. 

Gentlemen  tell  us  that  our  alarms  are  unfounded  ;  that  even  if  we  should  give 
them  power  to  tax  us  at  their  will  and  pleasure,  there  is  no  danger  that  they  will 
ever  abuse  it.  They  urge  many  arguments  to  prove  this  ;  and  among  the  rest,  they 
tell  us  that  there  is  no  disposition  among  them,  to  practice  injustice  towards  their  east- 
ern brethren.  Sir,  I  do  firmly  believe  it.  It  gives  me  pleasure  to  say,  that  in  all  my 
associations  with  the  people  of  the  west,  I  have  never  had  reason  to  doubt  either  their 
justice  or  their  generosity.  And  if  they  can  give  us  a  sure  guarantee  that  the  same 
just  and  kind  feelings  which  they  now  entertain,  shall  be  transmitted  as  an  inheri- 
tance to  their  posterity  forever,  we  will  ask  no  other  security.?    But  who  can  answer 

*  Judge  Upshur  corrects  a  mistake  in  his  calculation.    The  proportion  is  about  one  sLxtli. 


76 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


for  the  generations  that  are  to  come.  It  is  not  for  this  day  only,  but  I  trust  for  distant 
ages,  that  we  are  now  laboring;  we  are  very  unwisely  employed,  if  we  are  not  making 
provision  for  far  distant  times.  And  can  gentlemen  feel  any  assurance,  thatunderno 
change  which  time  may  work  in  our  political  condition,  there  shall  be  found  any  clash- 
ing of  interests,  or  any  conflict  of  passions  ?  Will  they,  who  are  just  noio  be  alwais 
just,  under  whatever  temptations  of  interest,  or  whatever  excitements  of  the  feelings  ? 
Shall  there  be  no  jealousies  in  time  to  come  ?  No  resentments  ?  Nothing  to  mislead 
the  judjmen',  even  if  it  does  not  corrupt  the  feelings?  Even  if  no  disposition  to  op- 
press us  sh  uld  exist,  how  can  we  be  assured  that  the  people  of  the  west  shall  view 
their  own  acts  in  all  time  to  come,  in  the  same  light  in  which  they  may  appear  to  us  ? 
That  which  theij  may  consider  mere  justice,  may  appear  to  us  as  the  worst  oppression. 
Surely  it  is  not  surprising  that  we  should  claim  a  right  to  say,  whether  we  are  op- 
pressed or  not. 

Again. — We  are  told  that  slave-holders  cannot  be  in  danger,  because  in  point  of 
fact,  they  comprise  a  majority  of  our  white  population.  If  so,  it  would  seem  to  fol- 
low that  no  good  objection  could  be  urged  to  the  basis  proposed  by  us ;  it  is  the  basis 
required  by  the  interests  of  the  majority,  and  therefore  right  by  our  opponents'  own 
rule.  Bat  while  the  fact  as  stated,  is  literally  true,  the  conclusion  deduced  from  it,  is 
not  so.  How  is  this  majority  made  up  ?  By  counting  the  slave-holders  in  all  parts 
of  the  State  ;  by  taking  a  few,  scattered  here  and  there,  through  the  western  coun- 
ties, where  slaves  are  scarcely  considered  at  all,  and  if  considered,  are  absorbed  in 
other  and  greater  interests,  and  adding  them  to  the  numbers  on  this  side  the  moun- 
tain, where  slaves  constitute  the  leading  and  most  important  interest.  I  need  not 
press  this  view  of  the  subject.  It  must  be  manifest  to  all,  that  the  slave-holder  of  the 
east  cannot  calculate  on  the  co-operation  of  the  slave-holder  of  the  west,  in  any  mea- 
sure calculated  to  protect  that  species  of  property,  against  demands  made  upon  it  by 
other  interests,  which  to  the  western  slave-holder,  are  of  more  importance  and  imme- 
diate concern. 

We  are  told  also,  that  slave  population  is  rapidly  increasing  to  the  west,  and  that  in 
a  few  years  it  will  constitute  a  predominant  interest  there.  If  so.  Sir,  the  same  few 
years  will,  upon  the  principles  of  our  own  basis,  transfer  to  the  west,  the  very  power 
which  they  are  now  seeking  through  another  channel.  They  cannot  lose  niore  by 
waiting  for  this  power,  than  we  shall  lose  in  the  same  time,  by  surrendering  it.  But, 
Sir,  although  it  is  admitted  that  slave  population  is  increasing  to  the  west,  yet  its  in- 
crease is  by  a  continually  decreasing  ratio.  In  the  period  between  1800  and  1810,  the 
ratio  of  increase  was  sixty-five  and  a  half;  between  1810  and  1820,  it  was  forty-six; 
and  between  1820  and  1829,  it  was  twenty-eight.  Whence  is  this  ?  It  arises  from 
causes  which  cannot  for  ages  be  removed.  There  exists  in  a  great  portion  of  the  west, 
a  rooted  antipathy  to  this  species  of  popul  tion ;  the  habits  of  the  people  are  strongly 
opposed  to  it.  With  them,  personal  industry,  and  a  reliance  on  personal  exertion,  is 
the  order  of  society.  They  know  how  little  slave  labour  is  worth  ;  while  their  feel- 
irigs  as  freemen,  lorbid  them  to  work  by  the  side  of  a  slave.  And  besides.  Sir,  their 
vicinity  to  non-slave-holding  States,  must  forever  render  this  sort  of  property  preca- 
rious and  insecure.  It  will  not  do  to  tell  me  that  Ohio  no  longer  gives  freedom,  nor 
even  shelter,  to  the  runaway  ;  that  Pennsylvania  is  tired  of  blacks,  and  is  ready  to 
aid  in  restoring  them  to  their  owners.  The  moral  sentiment  of  these  States  is  against 
slavery ;  and  that  influence  will  assuredly  be  felt,  notwithstanding  the  geographical 
line  or  narrow  river,  which  may  separate  them  from  us.  And  again.  Sir,  the  course 
of  industry  in  the  west,  does  not  require  slave  labour;  slaves  will  always  be  found  in 
the  grain-growing  and  tobacco  country  alone.  This  is  not  now  the  character  of  the 
western  country,  nor  can  it  be,  until  a  general  system  of  roads  and  canals,  shall  facili- 
tate their  access  to  market.  And  when  that  time  shall  arrive,  the  worst  evils  which 
we  apprehend  will  have  been  experienced ;  for  it  is  to  make  these  very  roads  and  ca- 
nals, that  our  taxes  are  required. 

1  think  Sir,  it  must  be  manifest  by  this  time,  unless  indeed,  my  labovtr  has  been 
wholly  thrown  away,  that  property  is  entitled  to  protection,  and  that  our  property  im- 
periously demands  that  kind  of  protection  which  flows  from  the  possession  of  power. 
Gentlemen  admit  that  our  property  is  peculiar,  and  that  it  requires  protection,  but 
they  deny  to  it  the  power  to  protect  itself  And  what  equivalent  do  they  offer  to  us? 
The  best,  I  own,  which  it  is  in  their  power  to  devise  ;  and  it  cannot  be  doubted  that 
they  offer  it  in  perfect  sincerity  and  good  faith.  It  is  due  to  them  to  say  this,  but 
it  is  also  due  to  us  to  say  that  they  can  give  us  no  security,  independent  of  political 
power.  They  offer  us  Constitutional  guarantees  ;  but  of  what  value  will  they  be  to 
us  in  practice  ?  No  paper  guarantee  was  ever  yet  worth  any  thing,  unless  the  whole, 
or  at  least  a  majority  of  the  community,  were  interested  in  maintaining  it.  And  this 
is  a  sufficient  reply  "to  an  idea  of  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk,  (Mr.  Taylor.)  "  Will 
you,"  said  he,  trust  your  lives  and  liberties  to  the  guarantees  of  the  Constitution, 
and  will  you  not  also  trust  your  property  Sir,  every  man  in  the  community  is  in- 
terested in  the  preservation  of  life  and  liberty.    But  what  is  the  case  before  ua  ?  A 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


77 


guarantee  is  offered  us  by  that  majority  who  claim  to  possess  all  po\yer,  and  who  have 
a  direct  and  strong  interest  to  violate  their  own  pledges.  In  effect,  it  amounts  to  this. 
Gentlemen  are  indeed,  ready  to  give  us  their  bond,  provided  we  will  permit  them  to 
say  whether  they  shall  pay  it  or  not.  No  guarantee  can  be  worth  a  rush,  if  the  very 
men  who  give  it,  have  the  power  to  take  it  away.  Suppose  your  guarantee  shall  be 
violated,  to  whom  are  we  to  look  for  redress  1  Will  the  majority  hold  themselves  re- 
sponsible to  the  minority,  for  an  abuse  of  their  powers?  To  whom  shall  our  com- 
plaints be  addressed  ;  on  whom  shall  we  call  to  relieve  us  from  the  unjust  burthens 
which  bear  us  down  to  the  earth  ?  On  none,  Sir,  but  the  very  men  who  have  imposed 
them.  We  may  appeal  from  Caisar  to  Csesar  himself,  and  that  is  the  only  sanction 
Avhich  is  given  to  this  law  for  our  security. 

But  let  us  examine  the  guarantees  which  are  offered.  The  first  is  a  Constitutional 
provision,  that  personal  property  shall  never  be  taxed,  except  in  a  given  ratio  to  land. 
The  first  objection  to  this  is,  that  it  is  wholly  unphilosophical ;  and  must  depend  altogether 
upon  accident  for  its  fitness,  so  far  as  slaves  are  concerned.  There  is  no  fixed  and 
uniform  ratio  between  the  value  of  slaves  and  of  land.  So  far  as  labour  is  concern- 
ed, there  may  be  indeed,  something  like  a  ratio  :  for  the  value  of  land  itself,  and  of 
the  labour  which  renders  land  productive,  depend  very  much  upon  the  same  causes  ; 
and  of  course  are  subject  to  like  fluctuations.  But  the  value  of  slaves  as  an  article  of 
property;  and  it  is  in  that  view  only,  that  they  are  legitimate  subjects  of  taxation ; 
depends  much  on  the  state  of  the  market  abroad.  In  this  view,  it  is  the  value  of 
land  abroad,  and  not  of  land  here,  v/hich  furnishes  the  ratio.  It  is  well  known  to  us 
all,  that  nothing  is  more  fluctuating  than  the  value  of  slaves.  A  late  law  of  Louisi- 
ana reduced  their  value  25  per  cent,  in  two  hours  after  its  passage  was  known.  If  it 
should  be  our  lot,  as  I  trust  it  will  be,  to  acquire  the  country  of  Texas,  their  price  will 
rise  again.  Thus  it  appears,  that  their  value  depends  on  causes  wholly  extrinsic  to 
us,  and  in  no  degree  connected  with  the  value  of  our  soil. 

But,  even  if  tiiis  ratio  were  suitable,  it  may  be  useful  to  inquire  in  what  manner  we 
are  to  arrive  at  it,  and  what  would  be  its  operation  upon  society.  You  must  either 
value  the  whole  personal  property  of  the  country,  or  only  such  parts  of  it  as  you  pro- 
pose to  tax.  Let  us  view  the  subject  in  each  of  these  aspects.  I  venture  to  affirm, 
that  there  cannot  be  a  measure  more  directly  hostile  to  the  genius  of  free  Governments, 
than  that  which  proposes  to  value  the  whole  property  of  every  citizen  who  lives  un- 
der it.  Who  is  there  that  would  submit  to  the  exercise  of  such  an  inquisitorial  pow- 
er Nay,  can  any  measure  be  more  unwise  among  a  people  essentially  commercial  in. 
their  character.  Credit  is  necessary  to  the  very  existence  of  trade.  It  will  not  do  to 
proclaim  to  the  world,  the  uttermost  farthing  which  a  trading  man  is  w^orth.  It  is  not 
his  interest  that  it  should  be  known  :  this  might,  and  in  most  cases,  would  frustrate 
the  best  planned  speculations.  But  is  it  practicable  to  make  this  valuation.-*  Will  you 
permit  the  assessor  to  go  into  your  chambers  ;  to  search  among  your  wife's  apparel  for 
concealed  treasure  ;  to  demand  your  purse,  that  he  may  count  the  dollars  it  contains  ? 
And,  if  you  will  not  give  him  authority  equal  to  all  this,  and  more,  what  assurance  can 
you  have  that  his  valuation  is  correct .''  You  will  compel  the  tax-payer  to  swear. 
And  suppose  he  will  not  swear  .''  Are  you  to  excuse  him  trom  paying  his  tax  because 
he  will  not  tell  you  how  much  it  ought  to  be ;  or  will  you  punish  him  for  not  telling .'' 
Subject  him  io  peine  forte  et  dure,  for  resisting  the  impertinent  exercise  of  an  inquisi- 
torial power  ^  But  suppose  he  xoill  swear,  and  what  then  The  humble  farmer  who 
owes  no  man  a  shilling,  and  who  is  silently  laying  up  his  little  gains  from  year  to  year, 
careless  of  the  reputation  of  wealth,  has  a  direct  interest  to  put  the  smallest  possible 
value,  upon  his  taxable  property.  The  less  the  assessor  thinks  him  worth,  the  less 
will  he  have  to  pay.  The  merchant  who  lives  by  credit,  and  whose  profits  depend  on 
the  opinion  which  others  may  entertain  of  his  wealth ,  has  a  direct  interest  to  make 
the  amount  as  large  as  possible.  Here  then  is  an  invitation  to  perjury  on  both  sides  ; 
a  fiscal  law  whose  direct  tendency  is,  to  corrupt  the  purity  of  the  main  channel  of 
public  justice  !  Nay,  this  is  not  all.  Even  if  the  citizen  be  disposed  to  swear  to  the 
truth,  it  is  not  always  possible  for  him  to  do  so.  Suppose  that  A  holds  the  bond  of  B 
for  a  thousand  dollars,  and  that  B  holds  the  property  for  which  the  bond  was  given  ; 
to  which  of  the  two  shall  that  sum  be  assessed  ?  Not  to  B,  because  it  is  a  debt  which 
he  owes  ;  not  to  A,  because  the  debt  may  never  be  paid.  B  may  indeed,  be  taxed  for 
the  property  which  the  bond  has  purchased,  but  A  cannot  be  taxed  for  its  equivalent, 
unless  he  will  swear  not  only  that  the  debt  is  due,  but  that  the  debtor  is  able  to  pay  it. 
Who  is  there  that  would  venture  to  do  this.^    Not  one. 

Let  us  now  take  the  other  alternative.  Instead  of  valuemg  all  the  property  of  the  Com- 
monwealth, let  us  suppose  the  valuation  to  be  made  of  such  articles  only,  as  you  pro- 
pose to  tax.  Unless  property  is  to  have  a  fixed,  permanent,  and  unalterable  value  :  a 
value  which  is  to  experience  no  change  among  all  the  changes  which  are  going  on 
around  us  :  you  will  be  driven  to  the  necessity  of  making  your  valuations  so  frequent, 
that  the  expenses  of  collection  would  add  seriously  to  the  burthen  of  taxation.  And 
you  could  not  do  otherwise,  than  make  them  frequent,  for  property  is  continually 


78 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


changing  hands ;  and  he  who,  to-day,  is  liable  to  a  heavy  tax,  may  not,  to-morrow, 
possess  a  single  taxable  subject.  This  Sir,  must  necessarily  prove  a  fruitful  source  of 
discontent  and  murmuring.  There  is  no  man,  whose  justice  is  so  unimpeachable,  or 
whose  skill  is  so  great,  as  to  satisfy  every  one,  in  the  discharge  of  this  delicate  duty. 
Even  in  this  view,  the  plan  must  be  pronounced  altogether  unwise.  But  at  what  time 
is  the  valuation  to  be  made  ?  You  must  make  it  either  at  the  moment  of  passing  your 
tax  law,  or  before,  or  after  it.  If  at  the  same  time,  the  Legislature  themselves  must  be 
the  assessors  ?  Here  then  you  have  all  the  play  in  your  own  hands.  It  is  the  same  to 
me,  whether  you  value  my  property  at  two  hundred  dollars,  and  tax  me  five  per  cent, 
or  value  it  at  one  hundred  dollars,  and  tax  me  ten  per  cent.  I  pay  the  same  svim  in 
both  cases.  Of  what  value  then,  is  your  guarantee,  if  the  same  power  which  taxes 
my  property,  shall  possess  the  right  to  mZ«c  it  ?  But,  suppose  your  valuation  to  be 
made  by  a  different  power,  and  hcfore  the  tax  law  is  passed  ?  What  articles  shall  be 
valued  There  is  no  law  to  guide  the  assessor  ;  no  law  which  declares  what  articles 
you  mean  to  tax,  and  what  you  do  not  mean  to  tax.  The  consequence  is,  that  every 
thing  must  be  valued  :  the  same  impertinent  scrutiny  which  I  have  already  supposed, 
must  be  made  in  this  case  also  ;  a  scrutiny  which  would  not  fail  to  raise  up  more  than 
one  Wat  Tyler  in  every  county  of  the  Commonwealth.  But  there  is  yet  another 
horn  of  the  dilemma.  Suppose  your  valuation  made,  after  the  tax  law  is  passed. 
It  is  the  peculiar  office  of  that  law  to  fix  upon  the  taxed  subject,  an  ad  valorem  value  : 
and  this  I  presume,  must  always  be  regulated  by  the  wants  of  the  country.  But  how 
can  you  tell  what  rate  per  centum  on  property,  is  necessary  to  raise  a  given  sum,  un- 
less the  value  of  that  property  is  previously  ascertained  ?  Either  w^ay,  therefore,  this 
scheme  must  be  abandoned  as  wholly  impracticable. 

The  next  guarantee  which  gentlemen  ofl:er  us,  is  a  check  on  the  power  of  appro- 
priation. Much  of  the  reasoning  which  has  already  been  urged,  would  tend  to  prove 
that  this  also,  would  afford  us  no  protection  whatever.  For  myself,  however,  I  desire 
no  such  guarantee  ;  I  should  regret  to  see  such  a  restraint  imposed  upon  the  power  of 
the  Legislature.  My  principle  is  this  :  As  the  payer  of  the  tax,  I  have  a  right  to  be 
the  judge  of  my  ability  to  pay,  and  of  the  value  of  that  protection  for  which  I  pay. 
But  when  my  money  has  gone  rightfully  into  the  public  fund,  God  forbid  that  it  should 
not  be  applied  wherever  it  may  be  most  needed.  It  would  rejoice  me  personally,  to 
see  every  cent  of  it  contributing  to  useful  improvements  beyond  the  mountain.  I  do 
not  want  any  part  of  it  back  again  ;  let  it  go  wherever  it  will  do  the  most  good. 

These,  Sir,  are  the  only  Constitutional  provisions  which  are  offered  us,  in  lieu  of  ' 
that  power  which  we  claim,  as  belonging  of  right  to  our  greater  stake  in  the  Govern- 
ment, and  as  rendered  necessary  by  the  hazards  to  which  our  property  is  exposed. 
The  conclusion  to  which  I  have  arrived,  (and  I  congratulate  the  Committee  that  I  am 
fast  drawing  to  a  close,)  is  this  :  It  is  necessary  to  the  well  being,  and  even  to  the  very 
existence  of  society,  that  property  should  be  protected  ;  it  cannot  in  any  case,  and  least 
of  all,  in  our  own  case,  hope  for  protection,  except  in  the  power  of  protecting  itself;  and 
no  adequate  substitute  for  that  power,  has  been,  or  can  be  offered,  in  any  other  form  of 
Constitutional  provision.  And  now,  permit  me  to  ask,  with  whom  can  this  power  be 
most  saf el u  deposited?  I  grant,  Sir,  that  gentlemen  opposed  to  us,  are  equally  patri- 
otic in  their  feelings;  equally  just  in  their  purposes,  and  equally  sincere  in  their  de- 
clarations, with  ourselves.  Still,  I  ask,  even  upon  the  very  principle  of  this  equalit}'-, 
where  can  the  political  poAver  of  this  Commonwealth,  be  most  safely  deposited  ?  So 
far  as  riglits  of  person  are  concerned,  we  are  a.ll  precisely  equal,  and  the  slave-holder 
can  have  no  imaginable  motive  to  do  injustice  in  that  respect.  In  the  exercise  of  the 
tax-laying  power,  from  which  alone,  injustice  is  to  be  apprehended,  he  has  not  the 
power  to  make  any  injurious  discrimination.  Among  all  the  articles  which  have  ever 
yet  been  made  the  subjects  of  taxation  within  this  Commonwealth,  which  of  them  is 
not  found  on  this  side  of  the  mountain,  in  just  and  fair  proportion,  at  least?  How, 
then,  can  we  tax  the  west,  without  also  taxing  ourselves,  in  the  same  mode,  and  in 
just  proportion?  But  reverse  the  case.  There  is  not  in  the  west,  in  any  considerable 
degree,  owe  species  of  property  which  constitutes  the  full  half  of  our  wealth,  and 
which  has  always  presented  a  ready  subject  for  taxation.  Give  the  power  to  the 
west,  and  will  there  be  no  temptation  to  abuse  it  ?  no  temptation  to  shake  off  the  pub- 
lic burthens  from  themselves,  and  throw  an  unjust  proportion  of  them  upon  the  slave- 
holder? Sir,  there  is  much  in  this  view  of  the  subject.  I  am  not  indulging  in  mere 
speculation  and  conjecture.  The  experiment  has  been  actually  tried.  For  fift}'-four 
years,  the  taxing  power  has  been  with  with  us,  and  who  can  say  that  it  has  ever  been 
abused  ?  The  gentleman  from  Frederick  (Mr.  Cooke)  himself,  has  admitted  that  we 
have  never  abused  it.  I  heard  the  admission  with  great  pleasure ;  it  was  honourable 
to  his  candour,  and  valuable  to  us,  for  the  source  from  which  it  sprung.  Why,  then, 
change  this  deposit  of  power,  which  has  been  thus  justly  and  safely  exercised  for 
more  than  half  a  century?  Shall  we,  for  the  sake  of  mere  theoretical  principles,  or 
speculative  doctrines,  throw  our  interests  and  our  safety,  upon  new  and  hazardous 
experiments  ?    Let  us  not  forget,  Sir,  that  after  all,  Government  is  a  practical  thing, 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


79 


and  that  Government  is  best  v/hicli  is  best  in  its  practical  results.  "There  is  no  end  of 
speculative  systems.  Tiie  world  has  been  full  of  them,  from  Plato,  down  through 
Harrinofton  and  Moore,  and  a  host  who  succeeded  them,  even  to  tlie  prolific  bureaux 
of  the  French  revolutionists.  Of  all  their  schemes,  not  one  has  ever  been  reduced 
to  practice,  in  any  part  of  the  world.  Experience  is  the  best  guide  in  Government. 
That  guide  we  have;  let  us  not  shut  our  eyes  to  the  lights  which  it  affords  us.  For 
more  than  half  a  century,  the  political  power  of  this  Commonwealth,  has  been  in  the 
hands  which  nov/  hold  'it.  During  all  that  time,  it  has  not  been  abused.  Is  it  tlien 
without  cause,  that  I  ask  for  a  good  reason  why  it  should  now  bt  taken  away.'' 

Mr.  Doddridge  now  rose  and  addressed  the  Conunittee  in  answer  to  Judges 
Green  and  Upshur,  as  follows  : 

Mr.  Chairman. — Although  I  had  not  the  least  expectation  of  embarking  in  this  dis- 
cussion, at  the  present  time,  yet  seeing  no  one  disposed  to  reply  to  the  argmnent  just 
concluded,  (Judu-e  Upshur's)  I  feel  myself  irresistibly  invoked  to  submit  a  few  re- 
marks, in  answer  both  to  the  gentleman  from  Northampton  (Judge  Upshur)  and  to 
tlie  gentleman  from  Culpeper  (Judge  Green.)  From  want  of  proper  time  for  ar- 
rangement, my  remarks  will  be  more  desultory  than  1  could  wish,  and  I  fear  too 
diffuse  for  my  own  purpose,  which  is  brevity  ir.  this  debate.  Having  been  the  mover  of 
the  resolution  under  consideration  in  the  Legislative  Committee,  I  should  not  feel  my- 
self justified  in  permitting  a  vote  to  be  taken  until  further  discussion,  whicli  it  is  both 
my  wish  and  my  hope  to  elicit.  In  pursuing  this  subject,  I  feel  myself  both  relieved 
and  delighted,  by  the  frank  and  friendly  course  of  the  gentlemen  from  Northampton 
and  Culpeper,  and  particularly  by  that  sinceritj^  which  the  former  displayed  towards 
those  opposed  to  him.  Both  gentlemen  have  furnished  an  example,  to  us  wliich  I 
hope  to  imitate,  while  they  have  lessened  our  labours  by  such  a  candid  statement  of 
the  principles  relied  on  to  support  the  amendment  under  consideration,  as  leaves  us 
no  room  for  doubt. 

The  gentleman  from  Northampton,  yesterda}^,  carried  us  back  to  the  original  state 
of  man,  m  order,  thence,  to  deduce  the  elements  of  the  social  state.  His  remarks 
were  of  such  a  general  character,  as  not  to  require  from  me  a  close  or  critical  exami- 
nation. So  far  as  the  natural  or  supposed  savage  state  of  man  has  been  referred  to, 
the  effort  is  entitled  to  the  reproof  of  the  late  Judge  Asliurst,  in  which  the  gentleman 
from  Northampton  more  forcibly  seems  to  concur.  By  botli,  tliis  course  is  condemn- 
ed as  a  vain  effort  to  end  our  researches  into  the  present  rights  and  condition  of  so- 
ciety, in  that  rude  chaos  from  which  society  is  supposed  to  have  originally  sprung. 
I  agree  with  the  gentleman  from  Nortliampton,  that  if  man  ever  existed  in  a  savage 
state,  in  which  he  was  under  no  control  of  Government,  we  must  go  back  to  a  pe- 
riod anterior  to  Bible  history,  to  find  liim.  Although  the  barbarous  tribes  on  our 
borders  obey  no  written  code,  they  have  their  unwritten  laws,  to  which  they  yield 
obedience  ;  wliich  they  not  only  permit  to  exist,  but  assist  to  execute.  In  our  wil- 
derness, we  find  not  that  supposed  state  of  savage  life,  to  v.diich  in  disquisitions  of 
tliis  kind,  reference  is  so  often  made.  If  this  forced  state  of  man  ever  existed,  I  -will 
agree  with  the  gentleman  from  Northam.pton,  that,  what  he  calls  a  "  feeling  of  pro- 
perty," may  have  been  one  of  the  strongest  inducements  for  leaving  it,  and  for  seek- 
ing in  social  life,  and  under  a  social  compact,  security  for  that  property.  This  secu- 
rity consisted  in  the  force  of  society,  and  it  was  for  this,  that  man  subjected  himself 
to  the  restraints  of  the  social  compact ;  and  as,  in  the  nature  of  things,  this  force 
abides  with  the  majority,  man  and  his  property  became  subject  to  their  will.  Of  this 
position,  I  will  say  more  hereafter,  when  I  shall  notice  the  gentleman's  views  of 
the  rights  of  majorities,  and  contrast  them  witli,  what  he  supposes  to  be,  those  of 
minorities. 

The  gentleman  from.  Northampton  has  said,  that  our  Constitution  is  a  compact 
made  by  all,  for  the  benefit  of  all ;  that  if  there  was  in  the  majority  a  right  to  govern 
and  control  society,  it  must  be  derived,  either  from  the  law  of  nature,  or  from  a  Con- 
ventional source  ;  and  if  firom  the  latter,  we  must  look  for  it  in  our  wTitten  Consti- 
tution. 

Here  the  gentleman  first  touched  Virginia  ground,  and  alluded  to  Virginia  history  ; 
and  here  it  is  my  purpose  to  meet  liim,  and  to  follow  him  with  frankness  through 
each  postulate  maintained  in  his  most  able  and  eloquent  argument. 

Although  not  for  the  purpose  of  questioning  its  legal  obligation,  I  deny  the  very 
first  assumption  of  fact  stated  by  the  gentleman.  The  Constitution  of  Virginia  is  not 
a  pact  ••'  made  by  all,  for  the  benefit  of  all."  It  is  well  known,  that  the  present  Con- 
stitution was  got  up  in  a  time  of  difficulty  and  danger.  It  was  adopted  as  an  expe- 
dient for  existing  circumstances,  to  serve  the  purposes  of  the  time,  and  not  looked 
upon  as  an  instrument  which  would  meet  the  wants  and  bear  the  test  of  experience 
for  future  ages.  So  far  from  all  the  members  of  society  having  had  an  agency  in 
making  this  Constitution,  none  were,  even,  consulted  except  freeholders,  and  those 
only  of  a  certain  class,  holding  fifiy  acres  of  cultivated,  or  one  hmidred  of  uncultiva- 
ted-land  3  the  property  quahiication  then,  being  double  what  it  is  now.    The  Con- 


80 


DEBATJiS   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


vention  which  made  the  election  law  under  which  that  of  177G  was  elected,  was  no 
other  than  the  last  House  of  Burgesses  elected  under  the  Colonial  Constitution. 
When  tliey  were  dissolved  by  an  act  of  regal  authority,  they  were  reduced  to  the 
condition  of  so  many  private  gentlemen  freeholders.  They  possessed  at  least  the 
confidence  of  the  freeholding  class  of  the  community,  of  which  their  recent  elections 
to  the  House  of  Burgesses  was  evidence.  To  the  condition  of  private  gentlemen 
they  were  constitutionally  reduced ;  for  the  very  act  by  which  they  were  dissolved, 
was  that  by  which  the  whole  regal  Government,  of  which  they  were  but  a  part,  was 
ended.  Before  their  dissolution,  they  constituted  only  one  of  three  legislative  branches, 
yet  when  they  met  in  March,  and  styled  themselves  a  Convention,  they  assumed  the 
exercise  of  all  the  powers  of  Government.  In  their  March  session,  they  passed  ma- 
ny laws  and  resolutions,  by  the  last  of  which,  they  declared  that  their  powers  were 
at  an  end.  The  country  submitted  to  their  authority,  which  it  was  wise  to  do,  in  the 
existing  state  of  things.  Seeing  this,  the  members  met  again,  and  held  another  ses- 
sion, in  the  months  of  May  and  June,  1775  ;  in  the  latter  of  which  months,  they  pass- 
ed an  election  law,  which  is  the  basis  of  that  which  now  exists  ;  and  under  this  lr,w, 
the  Convention  of  1776,  who  made  our  present  Constitution,  were  elected. 

When  this  election  law  was  made,  'f'y  whom  was  it  made  ?  to  whom  addressed 
and  by  whom  accepted  and  executed  ?  The  answers  to  these  questions  are  plain,  and 
are  so  many  historical  truths.  The  Convention  of  1775,  have  certainly  earned  to 
themselves  the  thanks  and  gratitude  of  posterity  ;  but  this  consideration  by  no  means 
alters  the  facts.  They  were  a  body  of  freeholders,  of  a  certain  class,  who,  unautho- 
rised by  the  whole,  or  any  part  of  the  people,  assumed  authority.  They  authorised 
that  class  of  freeholders  to  which  they  belonged,  to  elect  others  of  the  same  class,  as 
their  successors,  and  these  latter  made  the  present  Constitution.  The  Constitution 
thus  made  is,  therefore,  not  a  compact,  made  by  "all,  for  the  benefit  of  all,"  as  has 
been  said,  but  by  a  part  of  society,  for  the  benefit  of  that  part,  in  a  very  great  degree. 
Had  there  been  but  one  class  of  men  in  Virginia  at  the  time,  holders  of  the  necessary 
quantity  of  country  or  town  property,  the  Constitution  might  have  been  considered 
as  the  agreement  of  all,  for  the  common  benefit;  and  for  aught  I  know,  might  have 
been  adapted  to  the  wants  and  exigencies  of  future  times.  This,  however,  was  not 
the  case.  The  Convention  of  1770',  did  little  more  than  to  continue  the  existing  state 
of  things.  In  the  place  of  the  old  House  of  Burgesses,  they  erected  the  House  of 
Delegates,  while  the  Legislative  Council  gave  place  to  the  Senate  ;  each  new  branch 
possessing  precisely  the  powers,  and  privileges  of  its  predecessor ;  and  the  members 
possessing  the  same  qualifications  respectively,  and  elected  by  the  same  electors.  The 
Executive  head  was,  alone,  substantially  changed. 

Mr.  Chairman  :  I  have  made  the  foregoing  remarks,  as  I  have  already  mentioned, 
not  to  disprove  the  legal  authority  of  the  present  Government,  but  for  another,  and 
very  different  purpose.  When  we  shall  come  at  the  discussion  of  the  resolution  con- 
cerning the  right  of  suffrage,  the  foregoing  remarks  will  serve  to  show  who  they 
were,  who,  not  having  been  consulted  in  the  formation  of  the  present  Constitution, 
will  have  a  right  to  be  consulted  on  the  adoption  of  that  which  it  is  now  proposed  to 
make. 

The  greatest  grievance  proposed  to  be  remedied,  is  the  inequality  in  the  represen- 
tation, and  this  especially  in  the  House  of  Delegates  ;  the  next,  in  point  of  magnitude 
and  general  concern,  is  the  freehold  restriction  on  the  electoral  franchise.  The  latter 
of  these  will  claim  more  particular  attention,  when  the  third  resolution  of  the  Legis- 
lative Committee  shall  come  under  consideration.  As  to  the  first,  the  distribution  of 
representation,  as  conferred  by  the  Royal  charter  of  Government,  may  have  been  to- 
lerably fair  and  equal  at  the  date  of  that  charter.  There  were  then  but  few  counties 
or  settlements,  perhaps  not  more  than  six  or  seven,  in  the  Colony.  They  were  all 
contiguous  ;  they  had  but  one  interest,  and  but  one  pursuit,  which  was  agricultural. 
Each  county  had  its  frontier.  When  war  existed  on  the  border,  it  affected  all ;  when 
peace  reigned,  all  enjoyed  it  alike.  In  process  of  time,  this  state  of  things  became 
materially  changed.  When  the  settlements  extended  far  from  the  Capital,  owing  to 
the  unprotected  state  of  the  country,  and  the  sparseness  of  population,  frontier  coun- 
ties were  exposed  to  almost  continual  wars,  while  the  interior  enjoyed  the  blessings 
of  profound  peace.  With  few,  and  but  short  intervals,  this  state  of  things  continued 
until  Wayne's  victor3^  Whatever  may  have  been  the  justness,  or  equality  of  repre- 
sentation, at  the  beginning  of  the  Royal  Government,  great  changes  were  made  be- 
fore the  Revolution.  Around  Williamsburg,  the  seat  of  Government,  counties  and 
settlements  were  sub-divided  into  small  precincts,  to  each  of  which  a  representation 
of  two  members  in  the  House  of  Burgesses  was  allowed,  while  no  more  was  allowed 
to  the  large  counties  farther  removed  from  the  influence  of  Executive  favor,  and  to 
those  on  the  frontier.  No  more,  indeed,  was  allowed  to  all  West  Augusta.  Hence, 
if  we  look  at  the  map,  we  will  perceive  representation  distributed  in  double,  treble,  or 
even  quadruple  proportions  round  Williamsburg ;  and  this  representation  grew  up  to 
be  so  unequal,  and  the  consequent  evils  so  intolerable,  as  no  longer  to  be  borne  with. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


81 


In  consequence,  public  opinion,. in  1816,  was  brought  to  bear  on  the  Senate,  and  in 
the  session  whicli  commenced  in  that  year,  representation  in  that  body,  was  distribu- 
ted and  apportioned  on  the  basis  of  white  population.  I  mention  this  fact  now,  in  or- 
der to  meet  and  refute  a  positive  assertion,  here  and  elsewhere,  that  the  proposition 
to  equalize  representation  on  the  basis  of  white  population,  is  a  nevr,  cruel,  and  un- 
heard of  innovation  I 

Since  the  year  1700,  scarcely  one  session  passed,  in  which  petitions  were  not  re- 
ceived in  the  General  Assembly,  prapng  for  a  reform  of  abuses  in  this  particular,  and 
in  the  law  of  suffi-age.  From  the  counties  of  Patrick  and  Henry  ,  these  petitions  were 
as  regularly  looked  for  as  tlie  commencement  of  tlie  session.  In  iSlo,  a  bill  was 
brought  into  the  House  of  Delegates,  for  making  a  new  arrangement  of  the  counties 
in  districts,  for  the  choice  of  Senators,  on  this  very  abused  white  basis.  At  tliat  time 
two-fiflhs  of  the  free  white  population,  were  represented  by  four  Senators,  wliile  the 
other  three-fifths  had  tvscnty.  This  inequality  was  sensibly  felt  by  those  of  our  citi- 
zens who  lived  west  of  the  Blue  Rido-e  ;  and  it  is  impossible  for  any  gentleman  to  re- 
sist the  conviction,  that  from  that  inequality,  there  must  have  resulted  much  misrule 
and  practical  evil.  Every  exertion  was  made,  bv  western  members,  to  pass  that  bill. 
Every  effort,  however,  tailed.  The  bill  was  naifed  to  the  table -after  the  second  read- 
ing, and  although  motions  were  repeatedly  made  to  take  it  up  for  consideration,  they 
were  scornfully  rejected,  by  a  silent  vote. 

At  this  time,  1;1.5.  there  was  not.  in  the  House,  one  eastern  constitutional  lawyer, 
who  did  not  maintain  that  no  Legislative  act  could  chano-e  the  districts.  They  argued, 
that  the  same  power  that  madelhe  Constitution,  had  ordained  the  districts, -and  that 
they  were  as  sacred  as  the  Constitution  itself,  and  could  only  be  altered  by  a  general 
Convention  of  the  people. 

One  of  the  natural  consequences  of  this  doctrine  was.  that  large  assemblage  of  dis- 
tinguished men,  commonly  called  the  Staunton  Convention  of  1>16.  That  body  ad- 
dressed to  the  General  Assembly,  of  lc'16,  an  able  memorial,  praying  for  tire  passage 
of  a  law,  to  take  the  sense  of  the  people  on  calling  a  C  nivention.  iS'umerous  peti- 
tions were,  at  the  sauie^time,  received  irom  various  quarters  of  tlie  State,  on  the  same 
subject,  and  uniting  in  tJie  same  prayer.  All  who  felt  deeply  ao-grieved  by  the  unjust 
rule  of  apportionment,  looked  forward  to  such  a  lavv .  and  to  a  Convention,  as  the  only 
means  of  redress.  Ail  demanded  that  basis  which  we  now  demand.  The  bill  which 
grew  out  of  those  memorials,  and  petitions,  provided  for  taking  the  sense  of  the  peo- 
ple, on  the  expediency  of  calling  a  Convention,  with  power  to  consider  the  propriety 
of  adopting  certain  amendments.  Tiie  friends  of  re, ■:':■.'].  d'  ;  not  then  suppose  the 
people  prepared  for  one  with  full  powers  like  the  pr^  -  amendments  propos- 

ed, were,  first,  to  equalize  rcprcscmaiiuii  aincng  the  j)  -  -yjjle  acccrding  to  num- 

hers  ;  second,  to  equahze  tlie  land-tax.  To  these  was  aaaed  a  xinrd,  on  the  motion  of  a 
member  from  Fairfax,  amended  bv  his  colleague,  to  extend  the  right  of  sutlrage  to  all 
free  white  male  citizens,  twentv-one  vears  of  age,  wlio  have  evidence  of  perma- 
nent common  interest  with,  and  attachment  to.  "tiie  communitv."' — The  words  of  the 
Bill  of  Rights. 

The  bill  passed  in  that  limited  form.    It  provided  for  taking  the  sense  of  the  people 
on  so  amending  the  Constitution,  as  to  extend  the  right  of  sulTrage  :  to  equalize  re- 
presentation on  the  basis  of  vrhite  population,  and  to  equalize  the  land-tax.    After  in- 
effectual struggles  to  strike  out  the  first  and  second  clauses,  it  passed  the  House  of 
Delegates,  and  was  sent  to  the  Senate.    The  ma-joiitv  in  th-  TT  i;.-^-  .  outiiis  vote,  re- 
presented more  than  three-fiiths  of  tlie  vrhole  white  inhab/  :  ^'iitlenian.  then 
from  Norfolk  borough,  and  now  a  member  of  tills  Coiiven  cd  that  bill  with 
all  his  zeal.    In  its  progress,  he  moved  an  amendment  to  it,  t  j  m.ruuuce  a  representa- 
tion of  slaves.    Whether,  he  intended  a  representation  of  all,  or  three-fifths  onhv ,  1 
cannot  undertake  to  say,  as  no  proposition  was  made  to  fill  the  blank  in  tliis  amend- 
ment.   This  proposition  was  maintained,  by  ihe  gentleman  fi-om  2Ncrfclk,  with  the 
most  eloquent  and  cogent  exertions  of  his  matchless  powers.  I  have  ever  yet  heard. 
He  was  opposed  by  so.ne  of  those  who  are  opposed  to  him  n  r.v  :  a.i.i  n  twilhstanding 
his  exertions,  to  tiie  best  of  my  recollection,  there  were  but  tv  e:it;,  --'.x  votes  on  his 
side,  in  the  whole  H^)use  of  Delegates.    (\  '\       ■  :;se  numoer,  I  cann  it  be  certain. 
The  proposed  amendment  appears  on  the  J                  i  the  vote,  but  not  the  number  on 
either  side.    Had  that  bill  passed  the  SenaL.-,  ....  .    .iventicn,  then  to  be  called,  v\-ould 

have  represented  the  free  white  population  accorJmg  to  numbers  ;  and  it  is  so  far  from 
being  new  and  unheard  of,  that  the  demand  for  it  in  tliat  session,  and  its  establish- 
ment in  the  Senatorial  bill  of  the  same  session,  form  parts  of  our  record  history. 

When  this  bill  was  sent  to  the  Senate,  it  was  for  a  time  laid  on  the  table,  and  not. 
acted  on.  Tiie  reason  was  as  bUows  :  The  belief  was  suggested,  and  had  gained 
ground,  that  some  eastern  Constitutional  lawyers  had  changed  their  opinions  touch- 
ing the  power  to  leoislate  over  the  districts,  and  iiopes  were  entertained,  that  in  or- 
der to  tranquilize  the  public  mind  for  a  while,  like  tlir owing  a  tub  to  the  vvhale,  they 
would  bring  in  a  bill  to  equalize  the  Senatorial  Districts,  and  to  apportion  represen- 

11 


82 


DEBATES   OP   THE  CONVENTION. 


tation  in  the  Senate  on  the  basis  of  free  white  population,  which  would  relieve  the 
Senate  from  the  responsibility  of  accepting  or  rejecting  the  Convention  bill.  These 
hopes  were  not  disappointed"-  for  the  opposers  of  a  Convention  brought  in  a  bill  to 
equalize  the  districts,  and  to  apportion  representation  accordingly,  and  passed  it. 
This  bill  is  at  present  the  law,  and  it  establishes  the  Senate  as  the  representative  of 
the  free  white  population,  in  equal  numbers.  Thus,  in  one  and  the  same  session, 
there  were  those  politicians,  who  opposed  and  supported  that  very  basis,  which  they 
now  denounce  as  so  new,  unheard  of,  cruel  and  oppressive.  That  pure  element  was 
thus  sustained,  and  is  supported  by  the  precedent  then  made,  of  so  changing  the  dis- 
tricts from  time  to  time,  as  to  give  to  it  its  proper  vigour.  Nevertheless,  there  was, 
even  then,  some  cause  to  complain.  The  only  tabular  statement  of  population  in 
our  power,  was  the  Census  of  1810,  and  from  this  the  state  of  population  had  chang- 
ed, so  as  to  produce  about  the  same  injustice  which  the  last  General  Assembly  would 
have  inflicted,  if  they  had  based  our  present  representation  here,  on  the  Census  of 
1B20,  instead  of  the  more  gross  injustice  of  establishing  it  on  that  of  1810.  From 
these  facts,  Mr.  Chairman,  we  perceive  that  our  basis  has  been  solemnly  settled,  and 
this  not  rashly,  but  after  meeting  opposition  from  the  first  talents  in  the  land. 

The  change  in  the  Senate  was  publicly  known.  It  could  not  be  concealed,  as  it 
not  only  appeared  in  the  Statute  Book,  but  affected  the  elections  of  the  three  follow- 
ing years,  in  giving  to  the  new  principle  its  full  operation.  This  was  not  fully  ac- 
complished, until  the  election  of  1820  ;  and  the  Census  of  that  year,  shewed  the 
people  the  extent  of  the  inequality  yet  remaining,  and  which,  accordmg  to  the  pre- 
cedent of  1816,  may  be  corrected  after  the  next  enumeration,  by  a  new  arrangement 
of  districts.  I  admit  tliat  after  power  had  thus,  partially,  changed  hands  in  the  Se- 
nate, the  public  mind  rested  from  its  excitement,  and  took  a  breathing  spell,  vintil  the 
autumn  of  1824,  and  spring  and  summer  of  1825.  During  this  period,  the  represen- 
tation in  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  a  proposition  to  equalize  it  on  the  white  basis, 
became  the  subjects  of  newspaper  controversy.  Writers  on  one  side  endeavored,  by 
exposing  the  misrule  of  the  minority,  and  the  evil  tendency  of  that  rule,  to  awaken 
public  attention  to  the  subject,  and  to  bring  about  reform.  On  the  other  hand,  at- 
tempts vv^ere  made  to  alarm  the  people.  They  were  taught  to  believe  that  those  who 
proposed  to  reform,  meant  to  destroy  ;  that  the  judicial  tenure  of  office,  the  right  of 
suffrage,  and  even  property:'  of  a  certain  description,  nay,  all  that  was  valuable  in  so- 
ciety, would  be  hazarded  by  the  call  of  a  Convention.  It  was  then  maintained,  as  it 
is  now  maintained,  that  the  majority  suffered  no  practical  evil  from  the  government 
of  the  minority.  Out  of  these  discussions,  arose  the  second  meeting  at  Staunton, 
called  the  Staunton  Convention  of  July  1825.  That  Convention  was  a  body  which 
would  have  suffered  but  little  disparagement  by  a  comparison  with  this.  It  contained 
upwards  of  one  hundred  delegates  of  the  friends  of  reform.  They  came  from  the 
borders  of  the  State  ;  from  the  east  to  the  west ;  from  the  sea  to  the  Ohio.  Their 
object  was  to  increase  the  numbers,  and  strengthen  the  confidence  of  tlieir  friends; 
and  to  weaken  and  reduce  the  number  of  their  opponents,  by  publishing  to  the  whole 
Commonwealth  the  grievances  of  which  they  complained,  and  the  redress  they 
sought.  In  a  word,  they  intended  to  act  on  public  opinion,  and  in  this  they  succeed- 
ed. Their  coincidence  in  opinions  and  views  was  remarkable.  It  was  matter  of  as- 
tonishment to  themselves.  They  acted  openly  ;  they  sat  publicly,  and  kept  and  pub- 
lished a  journal  containing  their  proceedings  and  resolves.  By  their  resolves,  they 
claimed  reformation  of  representation  on  the  white  basis  ;  the  reduction  of  numbers 
in  the  House  of  Delegates  ;  the  abolition  of  the  Executive  Council ;  a  more  respon- 
sible Executive,  and  an  extension  of  the  right  of  suffrage  to  all  those,  whether  freehol- 
ders or  not,  who  have  evidence  of  common  interest  and  permanent  attachment.  This 
journal  was  published  in  all  the  Gazettes.  It  was  communicated  to  the  General  As- 
sembly, and  together  with  the  memorial  of  that  meeting,  and  the  petitions  of  the 
people,  became  the  subject  of  the  most  grave  and  animated  discussions  in  the  three 
following  sessions,  and  until  in  that  of  1827,  their  prayer  was  granted  by  the  passage 
of  the  law  for  taking  the  public  sense  on  calhng  a  General  Convention.  All  those 
principles  were  again  discussed  last  winter,  during  the  progress,  and  on  the  passage 
of  the  law  under  which  we  are  now  assembled.  I  will  briefly  notice  the  proceedings 
of  last  winter  on  this  subject.  The  bill  for  organizing  a  Convention,  was  prepared 
arid  reported  early  in  the  session.  It  proposed  representation  by  the  Congressional 
Districts.  This  scheme  was  resorted  to,  to  give  representation  in  this  body  for  three- 
fifths  of  the  slaves,  or  what  is  called  the  Federal  number.  It  was  maintained  on  that 
ground  most  perseveringly,  until  towards  the  close  of  the  session.  The  principle  was 
then  called  the  black  basis,  and  it  became  so  odious  within  these  walls,  and  through- 
out the  country,  that  its  friends  were  compelled  to  abandon  it.  It  was  perceived, 
however,  that  if  their  arguments  proved  any  thing  to  sustain  a  representation  of 
three-Jifths,  they  equally  sustained  a  representation  of  all  the  slaves.  From  the  mo- 
ment that  it  was  determined  to  abandon  the  black  basis,  the  bill  was  sustained  as  one 
founded  on  the  very  combined  ratio  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  now 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


83 


under  consideration.  Some  of  those  who  had,  by  argument,  maintained  the  black 
basis,  denied  that  any  thing  but  a  basis  of  population  and  taxation,  was  ever  contem<> 
plated,  and  they  wound  up  their  efforts  by  endeavoring  to  shew  that  the  arrangement 
of  Congressional  Districts,  reasonably  effected  their  new  pretensions,  and  had  been 
resorted  to  for  that  purpose.  After  all  this,  it  would  be  paying  but  a  poor  compliment 
to  the  intelligence  of  our  constituents,  to  suppose  them  ignorant  that  the  white  basis 
would  be  here  claimed,  and  that  the  battle  between  that  and  a  compound  one  of 
some  sort,  would  be  the  one  most  severely  contested.  la  this  brief  review  of  the 
proceedings  of  last  winter,  I  speak  with  confidence,  and  to  the  memories  of  many 
gentlemen  now  present,  who  must  sustain  me  wlien  I  say,  that  the  friends  of  the  mi- 
nority in  this  Convention,  have  commenced  here,  precisely  where  they  ended  last 
winter.  It  was  then  said,  that  if  one  slave  ought  to  be  represented,  all  ought,  and 
in  the  form  of  taxation,  the  same  thing  is  now  claimed  by  the  combined  ratio  of  the 
gentleman  from  Culpeper.  It  is  the  same  principle,  in  disguise.  After  the  candid 
admissions  of  the  gentlemen  from  Northampton  and  Culpeper,  proof  of  this  has  be- 
come unnecessary.  Whether  you  count  him  as  a  whole  man,  or  as  a  fraction,  it  is 
still  the  same  question,  covered,  indeed,  by  a  few  flowers  and  flounces,  but  it  cannot  be 
concealed,  that  a  slave  representation  lies  at  the  bottom  of  the  combined  ratio.  Both 
gentlemen  admit  that,  but  for  the  purposes  of  security  for  that  species  of  property, 
the  principle  would  not  be  insisted  on. 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  will  now  proceed  to  notice  more  particularly,  and  in  their  order 
of  time,  several  postulates  urged  by  the  gentleman  from  Northampton. 

Although  that  gentleman  had  agreed,  that  in  order  to  settle  our  rights  in  the  social, 
nothing  could  be  deduced  from  the  natural  state  of  man,  whether  considered  as  a  re- 
ality or  as  a  fiction,  I  understood  him  to  take  up  and  espouse  the  position  of  the  gen- 
tleman from  Culpeper,  that  the  rights  spoken  of  in  the  Declaration,  are  such  as 
were  natural,  and  do  not  pertain  to  the  social  state."  To  this  position,  the  words  in 
the  first  section  of  that  Declaration  are  a  conclusive  answer,  i.  e.  All  men  are  by 
nature  equally  free  and  independent,  and  have  certain  inherent  rights,  of  which, 
when  they  enter  into  society,  they  cannot,  by  any  compact,  deprive  or  divest  their 
posterity  ;  namely,  the  enjoyment  of  life  and  liberty,  with  the  means  of  acquiring  and 
possessing  property,  and  pursuing  and  obtaining  happiness  and  safety."  Now  it  is 
manifest,  that  what  is  here  spoken  of,  are  those  a  priori  rights,  which  are  supposed  to 
exist  in  a  state  of  nature,  and  are  retained  to  man  in  society,  so  as  to  be  social  rights, 
secured  by  the  social  compact. 

The  gentleman  from  Northampton,  however,  qualified  the  position  of  his  friend,  by 
supposing  him  to  have  said  that,  "  no  man  in  a  social  state,  has  a  natural  right  to  con- 
trol another."  This  may  be  true,  and  yet,  in  order  to  pursue  happiness  and  safety,  or 
even  to  acquire  and  possess  property,  a  majority  may  well  be  supposed  to  possess  the 
right,  both  natural  and  social,  to  prevent  the  minority  from  ruling  them  ;  from  con- 
troling  their  actions,  and  from  endangering  their  lives,  liberty,  properties  or  safety. 
I  will  say  nothing  as  to  the  suppositious  case  of  one  savage  tribe  of  hunters  on  this 
continent,  dictating  law  to  another  of  fishermen,  on  the  isles  of  another.  Nor  will  I 
follow  the  gentleman  either  to  the  first  family  of  the  human  race,  or  into  the  enquiry, 
80  oflen  made  and  so  oflen  answered,  why  females,  infants  and  lunatics  are  not  count- 
ed as  parts  of  society  in  settling  the  question  of  what  majority  should  rule.  The 
common  sense  and  experience  of  mankind  has  determined  that  there  is  a  state  of  in- 
fancy and  a  state  of  maturity,  and  the  necessity,  in  all  climes,  of  fixing  on  a  certain 
period  of  human  life  at  wliich,  for  legal  purposes,  the  one  shall  terminate  and  the 
other  commence.  As  to  lunatics,  the  same  common  sense  has  excluded  them  for 
want  of  mind.  All  the  excluded  cases  are  founded  on,  either  the  imbecility  of  mind, 
or  its  subjection  to  the  will  of  another,  whereby  it  loses  its  freedom.  The  exclusion 
of  the  other  sex,  has  been  most  eloquently  accounted  for  by  the  gentleman  himself. 
Of  woman  he  says,  that  the  fiat  of  God  which  brought  her  into  existence,  subject- 
ed her  to  the  will  of  her  husband." 

I  dismiss  all  these  speculations,  as  more  calculated  to  amuse  than  instruct  us,  and 
proceed  to  the  postulates  of  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  which  belong  to  the 
subject  in  dispute,  and  serve  to  explain  it.  The  first  ground  insisted  on  is,  that  there 
are  two  majorities  to  be  considered  :  one  of  persons,  and  the  other  of  interests,  both 
of  which  he  contends  ought  to  be  counted,  in  order  to  arrive  at  and  ascertain  the 
majority  which  is  entitled  to  rule.  The  gentleman  has  pushed  his  principles  farther, 
and  has  contended  that  when  men  enter  into  society  and  form  the  social  state,  each 
brings  with  him  his  person  and  his  property.  Whether,  indeed,  on  entering  into  so- 
ciety, man  and  his  property  become  parts  of  that  society,  is  a  question  which  I  will 
consider,  briefly,  as  that  is  one  of  those  in  dispute.  One  Indian,  we  aj-e  told,  enters 
society  with  two  bows  and  arrows  ;  another  with  one,  and  a  third  with  none,  while 
another  brings  nothing  but  his  age,  his  infirmities  and  his  wants.  From  these  facts,  it 
is  attempted  to  draw  the  conclusion,  that  he  who  brings  the  most  property  to  protect, 
is  entitled  to  the  most  influence  in  Government,  instead  of  the  obvious  one,  that  he 


84 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


ehould  be  subjected  to  the  greatest  share  of  the  expenses  of  its  protection.  It  has 
certainly  been  left  to  the  men  of  Virginia  of  the  present  day,  to  make  this  discovery 
in  tht2  science  of  Government;  for  1  may  safely  challenge  them  to  produce  any  au^ 
thority  for  it,,  ancient  or  modern.  To  get  alongwith  this  argument,  it  was  found  ne- 
cessarj'-  to  denounce  the  principles  laid  down  in  the  Declaration  of  Rights,  which 
have  already  been  nanctioned  by  an  unanimous  vote  of  this  Convention.  Their  ar» 
gmnent  is,  not  that  men  alone  constitute  society,  but  that  property  enters  into  and 
forms  a  component  element  of  it.  The  interests  growing  out  of  property,  they  say, 
must  be  represented.  He  who  owns  a  tobacco  field,  must  have  repxcsentation  for  that 
interest,  as  well  as  his  person.  Not  only  do  the  gentlemen  contend  that  the  protec- 
tion of  property  is  one  of  the  great  ends  of  Government,  but  that,  inasmuch  as  rights 
to  property  require  more  legislation  to  define  and  protect  them  than  personal  rights 
do,  it  IS  the  principal  and  greatest  end  of  Government.  Property,  then,  it  seems,  is 
more  entitled  to  consideration  than  persons.  Simple  laws,  it  is  said,  are  sufficient  for 
all  personal  rights,  while  those  required  for  property  are  complex  and  voluminous.  It 
seeais  that  a  large  code  of  laws  are  requisite  to  define  and  protect  our  rights  to  a  knife 
and  fork,  and  tT  understand  them  the  consumption  of  a  thousand  lamps  ;  while  those 
that  concern  our  persons,  may  be  studied  in  a  week.  By  this  course  of  reasoning, 
gentlemen  have  arrived  at  their  conclusions  as  to  the  greatness  of  the  interests  of 
property,  and  the  comparative  littleness  of  all  that  concerns  our  persons.  We  are  re~ 
minded,  that  he  who  enters  into  partnership  v/ith  the  greatest  capital,  is  entitled  to  the 
greatest  share  of  influence,  and  that  the  same  principle  must  be  carried  into  Govern- 
ments. This,  however,  is  not  true,  according  to  the  laws  of  partnery.  There,  he  who 
has  the  greatest  capital,  shares  the  greatest  profit,  and  bears  the  greatest  loss,  which  is 
precisely  our  doctrine.  The  greatest  influence  is  not  conferred  on  the  largest  capital- 
ist by  the  laws  of  partnery.  Wherever  it  does  exist,  it  is  by  express  stipulation  in  the 
articles  of  co-partnership.  Will  gentlemen  push  their  principle  to  its  legitimate  re- 
sults ?  Will  they  give  to  the  largest  capitalists,  the  largest  suffrage  in  the  State  I 
imagine  they  are  not  prepared  for  this.  1  will  suppose  the  case  of  a  man'in  any  small 
county,  who  can  bring  two  hundred  able  bodied  slaves  to  the  plough  ;  will  they  confer 
on  him  votes  according  to  the  amount  of  his  property  or,  will  not  a  man  in  the 
same  county,  with  an  house  and  lot  in  some  decaying  village,  and  who  lives  by 
catching  the  jumping  mullet,  be  entitled  to  the  same  suffrage  This  must  be  admit- 
ted, and  yet  the  gentleman  declares  that  he  never  will  sustain  a  principle  which  will 
not  bear  to  be  pushed  to  its  practical  results.  The  argument  must  be  carried  to  this 
extravagant  length,  or  it  must  be  abandoned  altogether.  The  whole  of  this  argu- 
ment, is  manifestly  sustained,  only  by  reference  to  some  supposed  original  social  pact 
made  by  men  just  emerging  from  a  savage  state  ;  for  surely  gentlemen  cannot  say 
that  the  state  of  society  here  in  1775,  furnished  any  thing  to  support  these  deduc- 
tions, or  that  the  social  compact  then  formed,  contained  any  such  stipulations  in  fa- 
vour of  wealth.  _ 

I  will  here  bestow  some  reflections  upon  the  supposed  analogy  of  the  question  of  a 
combined  ratio  now,  to  the  Colonial  dispute  with  Great  Britain.  From  this  an  at- 
tempt is  made  to  prove  the  position  that  taxation  should  not  only-  go  hand  and  hand 
with  representation,  but  that  they  should  be  measured  by  each  other;  that  the  amount 
of  the  former  should  determine  the  quantity  of  the  latter.  This  was  not  the  Colonial 
question.  The  Colonies  claimed  redress,  not  because  taxation  was  not  in  proportion 
to  representation,  but  because  they  were  not  represented  at  all.  This  was  the  point 
of  all  the  appeals  made  by  Statesmen  of  that  day,  whether  addressed  to  King  or  Peo- 
ple. The  priiiciple  maintained  was  totally  different.  I  refer  here  to  a  State  paper 
written  by  Doctor  Franklin  in  London.  The  Colonies  were  compared  with  the  king- 
doms of  Ireland  and  Scotland  before  the  union.  Each  of  these  was  a  separate  king- 
dom orj-ealm,  to  every  intent  and  purpose,  subject,  only,  to  the  same  sovereign. 
Each  had  its  Parliament,  which  could  alone  tax  the  subject  or  grant  supplies;  and  it 
was  maintained  that  the  Colonies  stood  in  the  same  situation.  Each  had  its  own  Le- 
gislative Assembly,  and  each  was  subject,  like  Ireland  and  Scotland,  to  the  same 
Crown ;  and  the  argument,  was,  that  as  the  Parliament  of  England  had  no  right  to 
grant  supplies  to  be  paid  by  the  people  of  Ireland  or  Scotland,  so  neither  could  they 
vote  sup;.)lie3  to  be  paid  by  the  Colonies.  The  King,  it  was  contended,  could  only 
draw  a  revenue  from  Ireland,  or  Scotland,  before  the  union,  in  his  political  character 
of  King  of  Ireland,  or  King  of  Scotland,  granted  by  their  respective  Parliaments,  and 
it  was  urged  that  each  of  these  Colonies  bore  the  same  relation  to  the  Crowii  and 
Parliament  of  Great  Britain,  that  Ireland  then  bore.  It  had  never  been  pretended 
that  the  discontents  in  the  Colonies  arose  out  of  the  question,  whether  taxation  and 
representation^were  correllatives They  rested  on  the  grounds  I  have  just  mention- 
ed ;  for  the  correctness  of  which  I  might  appeal  to  the  personal  recollections  of  seve- 
ral members  of  the  present  Convention,  and  to  the  historical  reading  of  all.  Repre- 
sentation is  not  the  correllative  of  taxation.  The  question  is  by  whom,  or  by  what 
Government,  were  we  to  be  taxed.? 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


85 


Whatever  may  have  been  the  viev\'s  with  which  the  gentleman  from  Northampton 
endeavoured  to  enforce  the  position  that  man  coming  out  of  a  state  of  nature  into  so- 
ciety, brought  with  him  his  property  as  an  element  of  that  society;  I  cannot  pretend 
to  say.  Certain  it  is,  hov/ever,  tiiat  he  yielded  the  whole  of  this  argument,  when  he 
declared  that  when  man  enters  into  civilized  life  under  a  social  compact,  "  nature 
and  all  her  principles  are  swept  av^^ay."  Perhaps,  in  Virginia  this  doctrine  might 
have  been  seriously  and  successfully  urged,  had  it  not  been  lor  the  conservative  words 
in  the  first  article  of  the  Bill  of  Kights,  wliich  I  have  before  quoted.  With  the  above 
declaration,  the  gentlemian  returned  to  the  true  point  in  dispute.  He  admitted  that 
in  arriving'at  the  majority  of  society  entitled  to  rule,  if  any  be  entitled,  negroes,  bond 
and  tree,  were  to  be  excluded,  but  that  the  jusmajoris,  could  only  apply  to  a  majority 
of  white  persons  and  interests  combined,  calculating  slaves  as  property. 

The  gentleman  contends,  that  among  the  rights  of  individuals  at  the  moment  of 
forming  a  compact  of  Government,  is  the  right  to  say  whether  a  majority  shall  govern 
the  minority  or  not And  he  enquires  what  is  to  be  done  where  one  alone  refuses  his 
assent.^  The  answer  is  an  easy  one:  he  must  submit  or  leave  the  society,  and  thus  pre- 
serve all  his  rights.  It  is  again  urged  that  the  jus  majcris,  to  rule  the  minority,  does 
not  exist  in  Vfrginia.  Here  the  point  of  dispute  at  which  we  have  arrived  seems  to 
be  overlooked.  We  are  now  a  majority,  claimmg  to  have  cur  political  powers  accord- 
ing to  our  numbers.  These  powers  are  denied  to  us,  and  we  have  been  met  with  a 
subtle  distinction  between  civil  and  pohtical  rights.  It  is  admitted  that  in  relation  to 
the  former,  each  citizen,  is  equal  to  each  ocher  citizen}  but  it  is  contended,  that  the 
safety  of  the  whole  v/ill  not  permit  this  equaiity  in  respect  of  the  latter.  If  this  equa- 
lity of  political  power,  and  consequently  the  rights  of  a  majority  of  numbers  to  govern 
does  really  exist,  it  is  said  that  it  must  be  found  written  in  the  Constitution.  This 
shows  how  ingeniously  gentlemen  can  vary  their  views  of  that  document  in  which 
our  rights  are  declared. — The  Declaration  of  Rights.  At  one  moment  that  document, 
and  the  makers  of  it,  are  extolled  to  the  skies  :  at  another,  the  principles  it  contains 
are  termed  metaphysical  abstractions  ;  as  visionary  theories,  which  appear  very  well  on 
paper,  but  are  wholly  unfit  for  practical  application.  One  of  our  opponents  has  seri- 
ously maintained  that  the  Bill  of  Bights  is,  in  fact,  no  part  of  the  Constitution,  al- 
though the  contrary  has  been  determined  by  the  Court  of  Appeals.  And  it  is  abso- 
lutely necessary  for  gentlemen  to  get  over  the  Sill  of  Rights,  and  to  reverse  their  votes 
in  its  fav^our  the  other  day,  in  order  to  get  along  with  their  argument  at  all}  because 
the  third  article  of  that  instrument  is  in  their  way.  That  article  declares  "  that  Gov- 
ernment is,  or  ought  to  be  instituted  for  tlie  common  (not  unequal)  benefit,  protectioH 
and  security  of  tlie  people  ;  and  that  whenever  any  Government  shall  be  found  in- 
adequate to  the  purposes  for  which  it  was  created,  a  majority  of  the  comviunity  hath 
an  indubitable,  unalienable,  and  indefeasible  right  to  retorm,  alter  or  abolish  it,"  &c. 
Thus  the  very  right  in  question;  the  jus  majoris,  is  contained  in  the  Declaration  of 
Rights  ih  express  terms;  and  further,  that  whenever  a  Government  shall  degenerate 
into  misrule  and  become  unfit  for  the  accomplishment  of  the  great  purposes  for  which 
it  was  instituted,  the  majority  of  the  coiimamity  have  a  right  to  amend  it,  or  to  pull  it 
down  and  build  up  another.  Here  the  right  in  question  is  given  to  the  majority  in 
express  terms,  and  this  is  the  j^ostalute  advanced  and  demanded.  This  right  is  always 
abiding  v/ith  the  majoritj^  from  whatever  source  derived,  and  with  them,  and  with 
them  alone,  abides  the  sanction  for  its  protection.  This  right  is  asserted  by  those 
whom  we  have  been  taught  to  look  on  as  the  greatest  of  men  and  the  first  of  patriots. 
But  the  assertion  of  this  right  is  only  found  in  that  part  of  the  Constitution,  called 
the  Declaration  of  Pdghts,  which  as  yet,  although  once  re-enacted  by  ourselves,  lies 
on  our  table  and  is  open  for  discussion.  Perhaps  this  state  of  the  argument  furnishes 
a  clue  to  the  desire  we  have  manifested  to  write  the  book  first,  and  last,  the  preface. 
However,  in  an  evil  hour  for  their  argument,  they  had  agreed  to  the  preface  first. 

We  have  already  decided  by  an  unanimous  vote,  that  the  Declaration  needed  no 
amendment.  It  is  true  that  vote  has  been  rescinded,  but  this  was  only  done  to  make 
room  for  the  present  debate.  We  have  treated  tlaat  document  as  one  of  the  subjects 
committed  to  us  by  our  constituents.  As  a  part  of  the  Constitution  itself.  We  have 
treated  it  with  the  first  respect  among  the  Departments  of  Government  by  giving  it 
the  first  reference,  and  by  giving  to  the  first  report  made  on  it  the  most  prompt  atten- 
tion in  the  House.  Our  Committee  has  revised  the  Bill  of  Rights,  and  on  their  report 
we  have  concurred  with  them,  that  it  needs  no  amendment.  And  shall  we  now  be 
told  that  it  abounds  only  in  abstractions  unfit  for  use  ?  This  report  is,  it  is  true,  on 
the  table,  but  is,  professedly,  to  be  disposed  of,  and  every  one  knows  what  the  dispo- 
sition will  be. 

In  our  course  we  have  not  exactly  followed  in  the  footsteps  of  our  predecessors 
who  made  the  present  Constitution.  They  acted  as  master  builders :  we  have  not. 
They  laid  the  foundation  first,  and  then  proceeded  to  the  superstructure.  After  they 
had  declared  the  Government  of  the  King  of  England  at  an  end,  the  first  tiling  tliey 
did  \vas  to  appoint  a  Committee  to  prepare  and  report  a  Declaration  of  Rights.  For 


86 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


■what  purpose  ?  To  serve  as  a  basis  of  Government.  They  first  determined  the  powers 
they  would  surrender,  and  the  powers  they  would  retain,  and  they  acted  upon  and 
passed  the  Declaration  of  Rights  first,  and  then,,  and  not  until  then,  they  proceeded 
to  erect  upon  their  declared  principles,  the  Constitution.  If  it  must  be  so  called,  they 
made  the  preface  first,  and  then  the  book. 

In  the  course  of  his  very  eloquent  argument,  the  gentleman  from  Northampton  ad- 
mitted, that  it  was  the  safest  rule  that  a  majority  of  the  units  of  the  community  should 
govern,  but  only  when  property  was  equal.  Unless  property  was  equal  he  did  not 
admit  the  principle  at  all. 

[Mr.  Upshur  rose  to  explain.  He  said  the  gentleman  from  Brooke  had  mistaken 
his  meaning.  He  had  not  said  that  the  rule  was  only  safe  when  the  property  of  one 
individual  was  equal  to  that  of  another.  He  disclaimed,  alike,  the  prmciple,  and  the 
effect  that  might  be  deduced  from  it.  He  applied  the  remark  to  large  masses  of  popu- 
lation having  not  only  unequal  but  discordant  interests.] 

Mr.  Doddridge  proceeded.  I  must  have  misunderstood  the  gentleman  yesterday, 
but  I  did  not  misunderstand  him  to-day,  and  this,  had  be  listened  a  little  longer,  he 
would  have  discovered.  The  gentleman  from  Northampton  has  laboured,  and  I  am 
sure  he  thinks  successfully,  to  maintain  that,  in  Virginia  the  majority  of  free  white 
persons  have  not  the  right  (and  he  almost  denies  their  power)  to  govern  the  State. 
This  j«5  majoris,  he  says,  is  not  derived  to  them,  from  the  law  of  nature;  ("that, 
with  all  its  principles,  is  swept  away,")  nor  from  the  exigencies  of  society;  nor  from 
the  nature  and  necessities  of  Government ;  nor  yet  from  any  Conventional  source, 
which  can  only  be  by  an  express  provision  in  the  present  Constitution.  Argumcnti 
gratia,  let  the  gentleman  be  right,  and  for  this  purpose  let  it  be  conceded  that  the  ma- 
jority covild  only  derive  this  right,  if  at  all,  from  some  one  of  those  repudiated  sources. 
His  conclusion  then  is,  that  a  majority  of  freemen  in  this  free  land  are  not  possessed 
of  the  right  or  power  to  govern.  But  Government  there  must  be,  or  we  instantly 
sink  into  anarchy  Pray  whence,  then,  will  the  gentleman  derive  the  power  in  ques- 
tion to  the  minority.'' 

Surely  he  will  not  go  back  to  the  natural  state,  where  force  prevailed.  That  state 
of  things  "  with  all  its  principles,  was  swept  away,"  when  the  present  Government 
was  formed.  He  cannot  deduce  this  right  from  the  exigencies  of  society  ;  nor  from 
the  nature  or  necessities  of  Government ;  nor  if  not  from  these  sources,  can  he  claim 
the  right  from  any  thing  written  in  the  Constitution  or  Bill  of  Rights.  These  look  to, 
and  declare  the  rights  of  the  majority.  Every  source  by  which  the  right  of  govern- 
ing could  be  derived  to  the  majority,  is  repudiated  by  the  gentleman's  argument,  and 
the  same  argument,  conclusively  denies  the  right  claimed  for  the  minority  ;  and  if  the 
gentlemen  are  right,  we  are  now  in  a  perfect  state  of  anarchy,  which,  we  know,  is 
not  true. 

Both  gentlemen  have,  as  I  have  before  stated,  admitted,  that,  but  for  the  possession 
of  slaves,  in  great  masses,  by  the  minority,  residing  mostly  in  a  particular  part  of  the 
State,  the  rule  of  the  majority  would  be  safe  now.  But  this  property  they  fear  to  sub- 
ject to  the  Legislation  of  a  majority,  lest  it  might  be  oppressively  taxed.  Against  this 
abuse  the  majority  had  labored  to  suggest  a  satisfactory  guarantee  ;  but  nothing  which 
their  ingenuity  could  invent  was  satisfactory.  Each  plan  was  denounced  as  mere  pa- 
per work,  which  the  majority  might  disregard  when  invested  with  power,  and  that  to 
complain  of  this,  would  be  like  appealing  from  Caesar  to  Ca?sar.  To  maintain  the 
insufficiency  of  any  Constitutional  guarantee,  it  is  insisted  that  neither  the  dictates  of 
duty,  the  oblio-ations  of  oaths,  of  conscience,  and  honor,  are  any  thing  when  interest 
isconcerned.  That  interest  is  the  tyrant  passion  which  can  never  be  controled.  Gentle- 
men have  gone  so  far  in  their  zeal,  as  to  declare  that  there  are  no  principles  in  Gov- 
ernment at  all.  We  are  candidly  told  that  the  minority  can  accept  no  security  at  all 
except  in  representation  ;  that  the  majority  in  this  free  land,  cannot  be  trusted  by  the 
minority  ;  and  that  unless  the  minority  can  be  protected  in  the  way  they  claim,  they 
never  can,  nor  will  be  satisfied  ;  and  it  is  to  be  feared,  that  their  discontents  may  break 
out  in  something  serious,  because  there  can  be,  as  they  say,  no  security  except  in  re- 
presentation ;  that  is,  in  the  power  to  govern  the  State,  and  thus  to  rule  the  majority. 
This  was  the  language  of  both  gentlemen.  Take  away  the  gilding,  what  is  it  ?  The 
pill  whicii  could  not  be  swallowed  last  winter ;  the  black  ratio  again  ;  not  of  three- 
fiflhs,  but  the  whole.  They  say  to  us,  "we  have  many  slaves,  and  you  have  few, 
or  none.  The  possession  of  this  property  by  us,  although  it  is  not  your  crime,  is  the 
reason,  however,  that  we  claim  to  exercise  over  your  persons,  lives,  and  property,  des- 
potic power;"  (for  Government  in  the  hands  of  the  few  is  always  despotic,  whether 
it  be  "called  an  aristocracy,  or  an  oligarchy,  it  is  still  despotic ;)  "  and  though  it  be  a 
despotism,  yet  we  must  claim,  and  you  submit  to  it,  as  nothing  else  can  secure  us 
against  your  rapacity." 

We  are  comfilimented,  it  is  true,  with  many  expressions  of  kindness  ;  of  confidence 
in  our  integrity  ;  in  our  generous  and  liberal  feelings.  But  then  the  most  serious  fears 
are  entertained  of  our  children.    It  is  feared,  that  forsaking  the  example  of  their 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONTENTION. 


87 


fathers,  they  will  become  freebooters  ;.  not  that  they  will  plunder  their  immediate 
neio-hbors,  ijor  that  they  will  haye  courage  enough  to  attack  the  minority  with  open 
force.  The  fear  is,  tha't  the  rights  of  the  nnnonty  may  be  inyaded  by  a  system  of  Le- 
gislative rapine,  because     there  are  no  principles  in  Goyernment." 

Were  we  disposed  to  act  in  that  manner,  or  should  our  children  be  so  disposed,  it 
would  only  be  necessary  to  look  at  the  census  of  1790,  and  the  tabular  statements  since 
made,  to  enable  you  to'discoyer  how  feeble  would  be  the  resistance  you  would  shortly 
be  able  to  make'to  such  yiolence.  Ton  may  there  see.  that  a  race  is  rising  up  with 
astonishing  rapidity,  suriiciently  strong  and  powerful  to  burst  asunder  any  chain  by 
which  you" may  attempt  to  bind'  them,  with  as  much  ease  as  the  thread  parts  in  a  can- 
dle blaze.  I  refer  gentlemen  to  the  documents  iurnished  us,  to  shew  them  how  vain 
must  be  the  attempt  to  impose  a  yoke,  and  how  illusory  the  hope  that  it  will  be  long 
%vorn. 

In  1790.  the  whole  white  population  east  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  was  314;5"23,  and  the 
whole  population  west.  1-27. oiU  ;  1~00,  east  of  the  Pvidae,  3oU,3Lr9.  and  west,  177,476  ; 
1810,  east  of  the  Ridge  33-,>37.  and  west  212,726  ;.  1?20,  east  of  the  Ridge  34s,e73, 
and  west  254.30c  ;  by  estimate,  east  3(32,745,  and  west  3]!:i.516. 

The  balance  of  white  population  in  1790,  in  fayor  of  the  east  was  1S5.S32 ;  in  ISOO, 
159,903  ;  in  IciO,  12o',n4  ;  in  lr20.  94.965  :  and  by  estimate  in  lt29,  43,229. 

In  the  first  district.  Ivni'Z  between  the  Alleghany  and  the  Ohio,  the  increase  of  white 
population  is  truly  surprising,    in  1790.  it  ainounled  to  3>.c34  only,  and  in  1829,  to 
l5l,3;4,  being  nearly  hve  tunes  the  number  in  1790  ;  and  haying  increased  by  a  ratio 
of  24"2|  per  cent.    AVithin  thirty  years  more,  that  district  will  contain  a  population 
more  than  equal  to  half  the  present  white  inhabitants  of  the  whole  State,  if  the  same 
ratio  of  increase  should  continue.   During  the  same  period,  the  4th  district  has  only  in- 
creased its  white  population  15,754.  being  at  a  ratio  of  eight  per  cent,  onh* ;  and  in  the  last 
year  but  little  more  than  two  per  cent,   1  his  yast  change  is  efiected  in  thirty-nine  years  ; 
a  considerable  period  indeed,  in  human  life,  but  a  yery  short  one  in  the  life  of  a  State. 
The  whole  population  in. 3  790  was  442.117.  and  in  lz29,  6^2.261.    In  1790  the  whole 
slave  population  was  292, 027.  and  in  l:r29.  44-^.294.    By  which  it  appears  that  during' 
a  period  of  tliirty-nine  vears,  the  white  population  has  increased  at  a  ratio  of  36'-^  per 
cent,  oiiiy,  and  skive  population  412-  notwithstanding  the  drains  made  from  the  latter 
by  sale  and  otiierwise.    Tne  increase  of  free  people  of  colour  is  yet  more  surprisinn-. 
In  1790  this  class  amounted  to  only  12,t66,  and  in  1S29  to  44,212,    This  increase  of 
coloured  population,  is  a  subject  of  regret  and  alarm.    I  looked  oyer  these  statements 
of  population  last  evening,  and  noted  them  down,  with  the  different  principles  dis- 
closed in  this  debate.    This  I  d^d  both  for  present  and  futm'e  use.    A  view  of  them 
will  enable  my  constituents  to  appreciate  the  arguments  and  claims  of  the  minority, 
and  to  discern,  if  we  should  be  successful  in  reiorming  the  Government  as  we  hope, 
the  depth  of  that  gulph  of  political  degradation,  which  was  prepared  for  them,  and 
from  wliich  they  will  have,  happily,  escaped  !    The  arguments  of  the  friends  of  the 
minority  here,  look  to  our  perpetual  slavery;  for  they  maintain  that  tiie  great  mass  of 
slave  property,  not  only  is.  but  ahvays  must  be,  in  the  east,  because,  they  sa}',  both 
tlie  physical  and  moral  constitutions  of  the  western  people,  forbid  the  adaptation  of  that 
species  of  property  to  their  uses.    At  the  same  time,  it  is  admitted,  that  if  a  majority  of 
white  population  is  not  now  in  the  west,  it  will  soon  be  there,  and  there  increase  forever. 
It  will  not  vary  their  principles  in  the  least,  if  at  a  future  tuue,  ten  white  men  should 
be  found  west  for  one  in  the  east.    Their  principle  is,  that  the  owners  of  slave  pro- 
perty, must  possess  all  the  powers  of  Goyernment,  however  small  their  own  numbers 
may  be,  to  secure  that  property  from  the  rapacity  of  an  overgrown  majorit}'  of  white 
men.    This  principle  admits  of  no  relaxation,  because  the  weaker  the  minority  be- 
comes, the  greater  will  their  need  for  power  be,  according  to  tlieir  own  doctrines. 
This,  to  be  sure,  is  pushing  their  argument  in  ahsurdimi,  but  the  fault  is  in  the  argu- 
ment, that  it  admits  this  crit'xism.   It  applies  to  a  case  far  distant,  in  point  of  time,  I 
own,  when  the  tide-water  population  will  be,  to  the  whole,  but  as  a  drop  in  the  bucket. 
East  of  the  mountain,  slaves  are  increasing  more  rapidly  than  wliites.    Between  tide 
and  the  Ridge,  this  increase  is  truly  alanmng.    In  a  short  tinie,  such  will  be  the  pre- 
ponderance of  numbers  in  the  west,  that  the  citizen  will  scai'cely  know  vrhere  to  find 
tlie  power  that  rules  him.  and  will  be  induced  to  ask  with  astonishment,  to  whom  it 
is  that  he  must  submit    I  say  again,  tliis  western  increase  must  proceed.    It  cannot 
be  checked  ;  it  will  go  on  while  the  east  oppressed  b}"  the  increasino-  weight  of 
another  race  will  be  stationary  ;  and  if  you  have  cause  to  fear  us  now,  that  cause  will 
increase,  and  with  it  your  fears  and  desires  for  power.    I  will  not  stop  here  to  inquire 
into  the  causes  of  this  western  growth,  but  I  can  satisfactorily  shew  why  it  has  not 
been  much  greater.    In  1790,  the  United  States'  otiices  were  opened  for  the  sale  of  a 
tract  of  country  separated  from  us  only  by  the  Ohio,  at  two  dollars  per  acre.  Ever 
since  then,  masses  of  public  lands  near  us,  haye  been  brought  into  market  in  Ohio, 
Indiana  and  Michigan,  first,  at  the  price  I  have  mentioned,  and  last,  at  one  dollar  and 
*  twenty-five  cents.    These  land  m.arkets  checked  emigration  to  western  Virginia  from 


88 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


other  States,  and  drew  off  some  of  its  native  po]  ulation.  Ohio  is  now  filled  up,  and  the 
lands  nearest  to  us  in  Indiana  and  Michigan,  are  very  generally  sold  out.  The  reniain- 
nig  land  markets  are  removed  farther  west,  and  to  countries  less  inviting.  It  is  owing 
to  these  circumstances  that  the  ratio  of  increase  during  the  last  nine  years,  has  been 
greater  than  during  the  nine  or  nineteen  years  preceding.  The  proximity  of  those 
land  markets,  have  had  an  effect  on  all  Virginia,  but  more  especially  beyond  the  Alle- 
ghany. 

With  the  present  state  of  population  in  view,  and  contemplating  the  prospects  before 
us,  with  the  full  belief  that  upwards  of  400,000  white  people  are  with  us,  and  that  we 
are  the  majority  at  the  present  moment,  sliould  we  be  weak  enough  to  agree  to  your 
terms,  and  submit  ourselves  to  your  Government,  what  would  our  indignant  constitu- 
ents say  when  a  Constitution  founded  on  your  clainis  of  superiority  should  be  presented 
to  them They  would  scorn  to  accept  it,  and  displace  us  from  their  confidence  for- 
ever. 

The  Committee  will  be  good  enough  to  indulge  me  while  I  submit  to  their  conside- 
ration a  few  reflections.  We  iiave  often  heard  that  wealiii  gives  power,  or  that  v/ealth 
itself,  is  power.  By  this  axiom  I  suppose,  is  meant  nothing  more  tlian  the  natural  and 
moral  influence  which  wealth  gives  to  the  possessor,  by  increasing-  his  means  of  doing 
good  or  evil.  Whenever  power  is  directly  conferred  on  wealtii  by  Government,  the 
additional  power  thus  conferred,  is  a  corrupt  one.  It  is  a  jyr/?  /  V^'c  conferred  contrary 
to  the  Bill  of  Rights,  because  not  conferred  Jbr  vicrit  or  public  scrriccs.  It  is  too,  an 
exclusive  privilege  in  its  very  natm'e.  It  is  an  immoral  diatinction  tiiat  is  conferred, 
because  it  makes  no  discrimination  between  the  possessors  of  estates  honestly  cicquired, 
and  those  of  ill-gotten  stores. 

Perhaps  no  blessing  of  this  life  is  so  transitory  as  riches.  To-day  you  are  ricli  and 
powerful ;  to-morrow  poor  and  despised.  This  thing  property,  while  possessed,  makes 
you  a  Sovereign,  and  the  loss  of  it  a  slave. 

We  have  long  been  in  tlie  habit  of  considering  this  Ancient  Commonwealth,  as  the 
freest  and  happiest  in  the  world  ;  our  Constitution  as  the  best  on  earth,  and  ourselves" 
the  most  fortunate  of  men.  What  would  the  citizen  of  another  State  think,  or  how 
would  he  feel,  at  the  sight  of  an  hundreti  wretches  exposed  to  sale,  singly  or  in  fami- 
lies, with  their  master's  lands,  if  in  addition  to  the  usual  commendations  of  the  auc- 
tioneer to  encourage  bidders,  he  should  hear  him  tell  them,  that  if  they  should  pur- 
chase his  goods,  they  v/ould  instantly  become  Sovereigns  in  this  free  land,  and  the 
present  possessor  would  become  their  slave Do  I  misrepresent  or  exaggerate  when 
I  say  your  doctrine  makes  me  a  shave I  may  still  live  in  the  west ;  may  pursue  niy 
own  business  and  obey  my  ovm  inclinations,  hut  so  long  as  you  hold  political  domi- 
nion over  me,  I  am  a  slave.  We  are  a  majority  of  individual  units  in  the  Stale,  and 
your  equals  in  intelligence  and  virtue,  moral  and  political.  Yet  you  say  we  must  obey 
you.  You  declare  that  the  rule  of  the  minority  has  never  oppressed  us,  nor  visited  us 
with  practical  evil ;  but  of  this,  we  are  the  best  judges.  We  have  felt  your  weight  and 
have  suffered  under  misrule.  We  never  expected  you  to  acknoAvledge  this.  You  are 
not  competent  judges.  It  was  not  expected  that  you  would  make  this  acknowledg- 
ment, or  part  with  power  willingly.  To  do  either,  would  he  to  furnish  a  precedent  of 
the  first  impression. 

We  do  not  know  to  a  ccrtninty,  v.'hat  districts  may  vote  Avith  us,  but  if  the  results 
of  the  public  jjolls  furnisli  any  sure  indications,  rur  strength  in  the  community  is  to 
the  minority  as  402,000  to  2o0,000  souls.  And  if  tliis  be  so,  the  heroic  resistance 
made  to  our  claims,  proves  a  degree  of  moral  firmness,  equalled  <  nly  by  the  moral 
worth  of  those  who  make  it. 

Among  the  propositions  of  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  there  was  one  which 
I  wish  to  notice  more  particularly  ;  that  a  majority  in  society,  means  not  a  niajorlty 
of  men,  but  of  men  and  interests. 

[Jud^e  Upshur  explained. — He  did  not  intend  to  say,  this  was,  of  necessity,  the 
case.  He  had  said,  that  in  faxins"  the  apportionment  of  representation,  there  must  be 
a  majority  of  interests,  and  it  did  not  necessarily  follow,  that  it  must  be  a  majority 
of  any  particular  character.    It  might  be  a  majority  of  the  units  of  society.] 

Mr.  Doddridge. — I  did  not  misunderstand  the  gentleman.  I  '.mderstood  liim  to 
say,  that  a  majoritAj  combined  of  men  and  interests,  did  not  7zcc<"5s>'/77''?/ r  ;ean  a  ?«ifi(//7Y</ 
of  men,  but  might  possibly  contain  but  a  minority. 

[Judge  Upshur. — He  had  supposed  the  Government  in  operation,  and  he  had  never 
contended,  that  in  tlie  Senate  and  House  of  Delegates,  a  majority  was  not  the  proper 
rule.  But  we  are  enga.ged  in  the  formation  of  a  Government,  and  it  is  for  us  to  say 
out  of  what  elements  that  majority  is  to  be  formed.  You  may  get  one  out  of  num- 
bers alone,  or  out  of  nunihers  and  property.  In  a  state  of  Government  a  maji,:ity  is 
the  rule  ;  but  we  are  here  assembled  to  fix  the  original  law  as  to  the  materials  out  of 
which  the  majority  shall  spring,  and  we  may  deterjnine  whether  it  shall  he  composed 
of  one  element  or  of  both.] 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


89 


Mr.  D.  I  am  sure  I  understand  the  gentleman.  The  doubt  is  as  to  that  majority  which 
the  Bill  of  Rights  declares  have  the  power  to  alter  or  amend  the  Constitution  :  whe- 
ther the  majority  there  spoken  of,  is  composed  of  men,  or  of  men  and  wealth.  Surely 
the  Declaration  of  Rights  means  numbers  alone  :  that  is  the  plain  English  of  the 
text,  which  might  be  safely  lefl  to  the  decision  of  any  man  or  woman,  having  a 
common  knowledge  of  our  mother  tongue.  Local  interests,  and  slave  property,  ex- 
isted in  1776,  as  well  as  now.  These  interests  and  localities  bore  the  same  relations 
and  ratios  to  each  other  as  now,  yet  they  are  neither  alluded  to  nor  provided  for  by 
the  Bill  of  Rights  or  Constitution.  Had  it  been  intended  to  take  property  into  the 
scale  of  representation,  this  silence  could  not  have  been  observed.  This  brings  me 
to  the  conclusion,  that  slaves  were  not  regarded  in  1776  as  an  element  of  society, 
but  merely  as  property.  The  Convention  of  that  day,  left  representation  where  they 
found  it;  based  on  the  freehold  qualification,  just  as  it  had  been  based  in  the  Colony, 
when  there  was  scarcely  a  slave  in  it.  It  results,  that  while  gentlemen  are  demand- 
ing representation  for  this  species  of  property,  they  are  demanding  a  new  thing,  and 
are  proceeding  on  a  principle  never  before  recognized  in  the  Colony  or  State  ;  while 
we  are  only  endeavoring  to  assert  those  personal  rights  which  spring  up  in  every  so- 
ciety, and  can  be  absent  from  no  Government  or  creature  on  earth.  1  therefore  re- 
peat, that  when  we  demand  equal  political  rights  for  ourselves,  our  constituents  and 
posterity,  we  demand  no  new  thing.  It  was  never  known  before,  that  constituent 
powers  were  to  be  created  out  of  a  compound  of  this  character.  They  certainly  de- 
mand a  new  thing,  who  thus  would  exalt  a  minority  into  rule,  and  require  a  ma- 
jority of  free  citizens  to  submit  their  persons  and  properties  to  their  dictation. 

I  will  now  call  the  attention  of  the  Committee  to  the  state  of  our  representation  in 
this  body.  We  have  been  elected  here  by  a  ratio  marked  by  injustice.  The  Sena- 
torial apportionment  of  1816  was  founded  on  the  Census  of  1810,  which  was  unequal, 
to  be  sure  ;  but  that  was  then  the  last  enumeration  to  w^hich  we  could  refer.  In  this 
body,  we  are  apportioned  by  the  same  Census  of  1816,  although  that  of  1820  was  in 
being,  and  could  have  been  resorted  to.  For  this  injustice,  no  reason  was,  or  ever 
will  be  assigned,  except  that  those  who  practiced  it,  had  the  powder  to  do  so.  This 
measure  was  a  poor  expedient  for  appeasing  a  discontented  people.  By  it,  the  west 
were  deprived  of  more  than  four  members  on  this  floor.  By  the  Census  of  1820,  we 
were  entitled  to  40  293-603  members,  instead  of  36,  and  by  the  present  population  to 
42  229-682.  Yet,  notwithstanding  tliis  injustice,  I  hope  the  cause  of  the  people  will 
triumph.  The  majority  here  may  be  small  indeed,  but  I  hope  they  will  represent  at  ■ 
least  two-thirds  of  the  inhabitants  of  the  whole  State. 

One  word  more  respecting  the  slave  property,  the  increase  of  %vhich  is  the  subject 
of  some  uneasiness.  To  allay  this  uneasiness  in  some  degree,  I  will  state  what  I  ra- 
ther anticipate  and  fear  than  hope ,  because  I  have  no  desire  to  see  the  slave  i:)opula- 
tion  of  my  country  increased.  This  property  will  hereafter  find  a  market,  to  some 
extent,  in  western  Virginia.  It  has  heretofore  been  of  but  little  value  near  the  Ohio 
river,  because  runaways  received  aid  and  protection  from  the  people  in  the  new  ter-- 
ritories  and  States.  The  State  of  Ohio,  at  an  early  day,  passed  a  law  requiring  all 
people  of  colour  migrating  thither,  to  give  bond  and  security  to  save  them  from  be- 
coming a  public  charge,  and  I  believe  to  be  of  good  behaviour.  A  general  belief  had 
prevailed,  that  this  law  was  unconstitutional,  and  it  went  unexecuted,  until  \sLtely. 
The  Supreme  Judges  of  that  State  have  decided  in  favor  of  that  law,  and  as  their 
blacks  cannot  comply  Avith  it,  they  nuist  remove.  It  is  supposed  their  only  retreat 
will  be  in  Canada,  as  the  people  of  Indiana  and  Illinois  must  follow  the  example  of 
Ohio,  in  self-defence.  In  western  Pennsylvania,  public  feeling  is  so  far  changed, 
that  instead  of  the  facilities  heretofore  afl;brded  to  fugitives,  the  niaster  meets  with  no 
obstructions,  bvit  is  even  aided.  Matters  in  Canada  must  soon  take  a  turn.  I  have 
no  doubt  that  there  are  many  western  citizens  who  will  purchase  slaves  again,  when 
the  causes  before  mentioned,  shall  render  the  property  secure.  These  considera- 
tions, with  the  acquisition  of  Texas,  will  greatly  enhance  the  value  of  the  property 
in  question. 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  acknowledge  my  gratitude  to  the  Chair  and  the  Committee,  for 
the  attention  with  which  they  have  listened  to  my  remarks,  desultory  as  they  have 
been.  Having  been  hurried  into  the  discussion,  without  proper  arrangement  of  ma- 
terials, they  require  your  indulgence. 

Mr.  Green  rose,  for  the  purpose  of  correcting  a  misapprehension  into  which  the 
gentleman  from  Brooke  (Mr.  Doddridge)  had  fallen. 

He  had  not,  as  that  gentleman  seemed  to  suppose,  proposed,  or  supported,  his 
amendment,  merely  as  a  security  to  slave  propert}'^  from  excessive  taxation  :  property 
of  every  other  kind,  was  liable  to  the  same  sort  of  injustice  :  and  he  should  have 
proposed  the  amendment,  if  there  had  not  been  such  a  thing  as  a  slave  in  Virginia. 
The  gentleman  must  remember,  that  two-thirds  of  all  the  taxable  property  in  the 
State,  w^as  owned  ea^t  of  the  Blue  Ridge. 

12 


90 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


The  question  was  now  propounded  from  the  Chair  :  when,  after  an  extended 
pause,  the  Chairman  rose  to  take  the  vote  ;  whereupon,  Mr.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield, 
moved  that  the  Committee  now  rise  :  the  motion  prevaihng,  the  Committee  rose 
accordingly,  and  thereupon,  the  Convention  adjourned,  to  meet  to-morrow,  at  eleven 
o'clock. 


THURSDAY,  October  29,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  eleven  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev. 
Mr.  Parks,  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

The  standing  order  being  read  by  the  Clerk,  Mr.  Doddridge  moved  that  tlie  Con- 
vention proceed  to  execute  the  Order  of  the  Day,  which  was  accordingly  agreed  to, 
and  the  President  called  Mr.  Stanard,  of  Spottsylvania,  to  the  Chair. 

The  Chair  having  again  ntated  the  question  before  the  Committee, 

Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour,  of  Orange,  rose  and  said,  that  as  the  gentleman  from  Chester- 
field (Mr.  Leigh,)  was  entitled  to  the  floor  this  morning,  according  to  Parliamentary 
usage,  I  tliink  it  proper  to  state  to  the  Committee,  that  I  am  about  to  occupy  it  with 
his  consent.  I  am  afraid,  indeed,  that  I  shall  offer  a  very  poor  equivalent,  for  the  rich 
repast  which  that  gentleman  would  have  spread  before  the  Convention  ;  but  I  have 
this  consolation,  that  though  it  will  be  delayed,  it  will  not  be  ultimately  lost.  But, 
Sir,  I  consider  it  a  duty,  which  I  owe  to  myself,  to  my  constituents,  and  to  the  res- 
pect which  I  entertain  for  the  opinions  of  my  fellow-citizens  of  the  Commonwealth 
at  large,  to  state  some  of  the  views  which  I  have  taken  of  the  subject  under  discus- 
sion, and  to  vindicate  the  course,  which  I  feel  it  to  be  my  duty  to  pursue.  In  doing 
this,  1  promise  to  be  as  brief  as  I  can,  consistently  with  rendering  myself  intelligible. 
I  would  do  so,  at  all  times  and  under  all  circumstances  ;  but  on  the  present  occasion, 
1  have  the  additional  reason,  that  the  able  argument  of  the  gentleman  from  Northamp- 
ton, has  relieved  me  from  much  of  the  labor,  which  would  otherwise  have  devolved 
upon  me  ;  and  I  shall  be  much  gratified,  if  it  shall  be  in  my  power,  to  strengthen  some 
of  the  strong  points  which  were  so  ably  occupied  by  him.  I  do  not  remember  in  my 
life,  to  have  felt  so  deep  a  sense  of  responsibility,  as  on  the  present  occasion ;  nor  is  this 
at  all  the  language  of  affectation  :  i  speak  it  in  the  sincerity  of  my  heart.  On  former  oc- 
casions, as  a  member  of  a  deliberative  assembly,  I  have  been  engaged  in  giving  ex- 
ecution to  the  provisions  of  an  existing  Constitution  ;  under  such  circumstances,  if 
I  should  have  chanced  to  fall  into  error,  it  would  have  been  such,  as  would  have  found 
a  speedy  remedy  in  the  ordinary  process  of  legislation ;  but  now,  I  stand  on  different 
ground.  I  am  called  upon,  to  aid,  not  in  executing  an  existing  Constitution,  but  in 
the  creation  of  a  new  one  ;  a  situation,  in  which  error,  though  not  wholly  irremedia- 
ble, must  continue  for  a  considerable  time  ;  and  if  corrected  at  all,  can  only  be  correct- 
ed by  the  original  power  of  the  people,  in  their  primary  capacity,  or  in  such  other 
mode  as  may  be  adopted  for  the  amendment  of  their  organic  law. 

The  task  imposed  upon  us,  is  one  of  the  grandest  and  most  solemn  import.  We 
meet  together  as  the  representatives  of  a  great  community,  to  mingle  our  counsels 
for  the  conimon  weal ;  to  lay  the  foundation  of  a  Constitution,  which  shall  secure 
the  permanent  happiness  and  prosperity  of  a  great  Commonwealth.  It  has  been  the 
fate  of  most  of  the  nations  of  the  earth,  to  have  a  Government  imposed  upon  them, 
without  tlie  least  participation  of  their  own  will ;  it  is  our  good  fortune,  on  the  con- 
trary, both  in  our  character  of  an  individual  State,  and  as  constituting  an  unit  in  our 
great  confedefacy  of  States,  to  have  a  Government  of  our  own  choice.  "We  meet, 
free  as  the  air  which  we  breathe,  not  only  unawed,  but  uncontrolled  by  any  earthly 
power,  save  only,  the  power  of  the  people,  who  gave  us  our  political  existence  ;  and 
before  whom,  as  the  ultimate  arbiters  of  their  own  destiny,  the  work  of  our  hands, 
must  pass  for  their  approval.  I  feel,  Mr.  Chairman,  not  only  the  importance  and  so- 
lemnity of  the  trust,  but  a  more  than  usual  deference  towards  the  body  which  I  am 
addressing.  It  is  composed  of  individuals,  all  of  whom  have  participated  in  the 
councils  either  of  their  native  State,  or  of  the  United  States  ;  and  some  of  whom,  as- 
sisted, more  tlian  half  a  century  ago,  in  laying  the  corner  stone  of  the  Constitution  of 
this  ancient  Commonwealth,  the  first  Representative  Republic  in  the  world,  which 
we  are  now  about  to  remove ;  and  who  as  chiefs,  either  of  the  Executive  or  Judicial 
Departments  of  the  Federal  Government,  have,  for  a  series  of  years  presided  over 
the  interests  of  our  common  country.  If  under  these  circumstances,  I  shall  be  some- 
^vhat  embarrassed,  in  presenting  my  views  to  the  Committee,  they  will  perceive  in  my 
situation,  an  ample  apology. 

The  most  important  of  all  our  duties,  is  the  organization  of  the  Legislative  Depart- 
nientof  the  Government;  it  is  in  that  Department,  that  the  public  will  is  concentrated  ; 
smce  from  it  must  issue  in  the  form  of  laws,  those  rules  of  action,  which  control  the 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


91 


lives,  liberty  and  property  of  the  people.  Not  only  is  this  the  most  important  Depart- 
ment of  the  Government,  but  the  immediate  question  now  under  discussion,  is  the 
most  important  one,  which  the  organization  of  that  Department  involves.  It  lies  at 
the  very  foundation  of  our  civil  edifice ;  and  it  becomes  us  to  examine,  with  the  most 
guarded  caution,  how  we  lay  it.  The  report  of  the  Committee  on  this  Department, 
has  recommended,  that  in  the  apportionment  of  representation  in  the  House  of  Dele- 
gates, regard  should  be  had  to  the  white  population  exclusively.  An  amendment  has 
been  offered  by  my  friend  from  Culpeper  (Mr.  Green)  which  proposes  the  adoption  of 
a  compound  ratio,  consisting  of  the  number  of  white  population,  and  taxation  comhin- 
ed.  The  precise  question  now  to  be  decided,  tlierefore,  is  between  these  two  propo- 
sitions. It  will  be  my  part,  to  endeavor  to  show,  why  the  proposition  of  the  gentle- 
man from  Culpeper,  ought  to  be  adopted. 

With  this  view,  let  us  first  examine  the  arguments  adduced  in  support  of  the  other 
plan.  At  the  threshold,  we  are  met  with  a  principle  laid  down  in  the  Bill  of  Rights, 
tfmt  all  men  are  by  7iature,  equally  free.  And  here,  I  cannot  forbear  to  remark,  whilst 
I  am  not  controverting  the  position,  that  it  appeared  to  me,  to  be  singular,  that  the 
gentleman  from  Brooke,  who  relied  so  muclr  upon  this  principle,  denied  the  authority 
of  the  Constitution  of  the  State,  at  the  very  moment  when  he  was  calling  to  his  aid, 
that  of  the  Bill  of  Rights,  though  confessedly,  they  both  rested  upon  the  same  foun- 
dation, and  consequently-are  of  equal  obligation.  But  let  that  pass.  I  shall  not  stop 
to  enquire,  whether  this  principle  is,  or  is  not  abstract  in  its  nature.  But  this  I  will 
.say  :  That  this,  as  well  as  every  other  principle  in  the  Bill  of  Rights,  is  to  be  modified, 
by  reference  to  the  time  when,  and  the  circumstances  under  whicla,  they  were  de- 
clared, and  by  reference  also,  to  the  people  on  whom  they  were  intended  to  operate  : 
otherwise,  if  you  give  to  the  language,  all  the  force  which  the  words  literall}'-  import, 
(and  they  are,  I  believe,  but  an  echo  of  those  in  the  Declaration  of  Independence,) 
what  will  they  amount  to,  but  a  declaration  of  universal  emancipation,  to  a  class  of 
our  population,  not  far  short  of  a  moiety  of  our  entire  number,  now  in  a  state  of  slave- 
ry f  And  if  you  were  to  give  to  such  a  declaration,  its  full  operation,  without  the  modi- 
fications which  1  have  stated,  you  might  as  a  natural  consequence,  soon  expect  to  see 
realized  here,  the  frightful  and  appalling  scenes  of  horror  and  desolation,  which  were 
produced  in  St.  Domingo  by  a  declaration  of  much  the  same  tenor,  issued  by  the  fa- 
mous National  Assembly  of  France.  I  do  not  believe,  Sir,  that  such  is  the  intention 
of  those  gentlemen  who  rely  upon  this  principle,  in  support  of  their  proposition  ;  I 
only  meant  to  show,  that  if  we  would  come  to  a  right  conclusion,  in  interpreting  the 
meaning  of  this  declaration,  we  must  look  at  it,  according  to  the  condition  and  cir- 
cumstances of  the  people,  to  whom  it  was  intended  to  apply,  and  on  whom  it  was  ex- 
pected to  operate. 

The  principle  taken  from  the  Bill  of  Rights,  is,  that  all  men  are  hy  nature,  equally 
free;  and  the  conclusion  wliich  gentlemen  draw  from  that  principle,  is,  that  therefore 
all  men  are  entitled  to  an  equal  share  of  political  power.  With  due  submission,  this 
conclusion  is,  in  my  estimation,  wholly  inconsequent.  Suppose  that  all  men  are,  by 
nature  equally  free  :  what  sort  of  connexion  has  that  proposition,  with  the  civil  and 
political  rights  growing  out  of  the  nature  of  Government : 

Need  I  remind  the  Committee,  that  it  is  the  very  nature  of  the  social  compact,  that 
all  who  enter  into  it,  surrender  a  portion  of  their  natural  rights,  in  exchange  for  whicli, 
they  acquire  other  rights  derived  from  that  compact,  and  dependent  upon  it,  both  in 
character  and  extent  ?  Is  it  not  a  solecism,  to  say,  that  rights  which  have  their  very 
being  only  as  a  consequence  of  Government,  are  to  be  controlled  by  principles,  ap- 
plying exclusively  to  a  state  of  things,  when  there  was  no  Government?  The  ques- 
tion is,  what  are  the  political  rights  of  the  citizens  ?  These  political  rights  never  ex- 
isted, till  Government  was  instituted.  The  same  charter  wliich  created  that  institu- 
tion, can  alone  create  and  define  them ;  and  yet  in  deciding  this  question,  we  are 
gravely  asked,  to  refer,  not  to  the  charter  itself,  but  to  those  original  principles  of 
Natural  law,  which  not  only  existed,  wlien  the  rights,  whose  extent  is  to  be  measured 
by  them  did  not  exist,  but  which  in  tlieir  very  character,  are  in  direct  contradistinc- 
tion, from  those  which  govern  the  social  state.  Thus  to  exemplify  :  the  present  ques- 
tion is,  what  shall  be  the  basis  of  representation  This  term,  by  an  irresistible  associa- 
tion, conducts  the  mind  to  the  idea  of  election ;  election  necessarily  involves  the  re- 
lation between  the  constituent  and  representative  ;  and  this  relation  derives  its  whole 
existence  from  Government:  it  did  not,  and  could  not  exist  before.  Surel}^  then,  it 
is  only  necessary  to  state  the  position,  to  show  that  it  is  utterly  inapplicable  to  the  case 
before  us.  No  laws,  no  rights,  can  possibly  bear  on  relations,  which  have  subsequently 
come  into  being  :  relations,  which  belong  to  an  entirely  new  state  of  things,  and  which 
state,  has  principles  of  its  own,  derived  from  the  instrument  which  created  it. 

But,  suppose  it  to  be  conceded,  that  tlie  rights  pertaining  to  a  state  of  nature,  and 
a  system  of  rules  deduced  from  the  circumstances  of  that  state,  had  relation  to  the 
subject ;  I  ask,  is  the  argument  of  gentlemen  consistent  with  itself.''  They  are  them- 
selves at  the  very  outset,  constrained  to  admit,  that  there  are  whole  classes  of  persons, 


92 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


and  numerous  classes  too,  who  are  not  entitled  to  political  rights.  Many  of  these  Imve 
been  already  enumerated  by  the  gentleman  from  Northampton  -.  females,  minors,  pau- 
pers, convicts  j  and  I  will  add,  aliens.  Now,  Sir,  females  alone  constitute  a  moiety 
of  the  human  race  ;  if  to  these  be  added  all  the  minors  who  have  reached  years  of  dis- 
cretion, and  all  the  other  classes  under  the  acknowledged  ban  of  exclusion,  there  is  an 
overwhelming  majority  of  the  whole  population.  But  how  come  they  to  be  excluded 
Is  it  by  the  provisions  of  the  social  compact  ?  If  that  were  the  principle,  it  would  be 
intelligible.  Is  it  by  the  laws  of  nature  1  I  should  answer  no.  For  those  laws,  of  all 
invariable  things,  are  the  most  invariable :  they  are  the  same  yesterday,  to-day,  and 
forever,  (so  far  as  human  affairs  are  concerned,)  until  modified  by  the  ordinances  of 
society.  They  operate  upon  all  persons,  of  all  countries,  at  all  times,  and  under  all 
circumstances.  For  example  :  the  rights  to  life,  liberty,  and  the  products  of  labour, 
are  natural  rights.  Are  there  any  persons  in  the  world,  who  by  nature  are  not  enti- 
tled to  these  ?  (I  speak  not  now  of  the  influences  growing  out  of  the  domestic  rela- 
tions.) I  answer  without  hesitation,  none,  no,  not  one.  How  then  can  it  be  said, 
that  the  laws  of  nature  refer  to  the  subject,  since  those  laws  are  uniform  and  invariable ; 
and  it  is  conceded,  that  these  political  rights,  are  neither  uniform,  nor  invariable,  but 
subject  to  great  diversity  and  exception  ?  Sir,  the  concession  that  gentlemen  are  con- 
strained to  make,  that  all  are  not  equally  entitled  to  these  rights,  involves  Inevitably, 
the  further  consequence,  that  they  are  not  regulated  by  the  laws  of  nature  ;  for  diver- 
sity  cannot  be  the  effect,  where  uniformity  is  the  cause. 

But  it  is  said,  that  two  of  the  enumerated  classes,  to  wit,  females  and  minors,  are 
excluded,  by  the  laws  of  nature,  for  the  want  of  free  agency  in  both,  and  the  want  of 
intelligence  in  the  latter  class.  The  want  of  free  agency  is  founded  upon  the  idea, 
that  these  two  classes,  are  subjected  to  the  dominion  of  men.  Let  us  first  examine 
the  condition  of  females  in  a  state  of  nature  :  I  call  upon  any  gentleman  to  shew  me 
a  principle  of  natural  law,  which  will  sustain  their  exclusion,  to  the  extent  which  is 
thus  laid  down.  I  will  suggest  one  case,  in  which  surely  they  could  not  apply  their 
principle.  We  read  of  a  nation  which  once  existed,  (I  refer  to  the  nation  of  the 
Amazons.)  in  which  there  were  no  men  :  the  society  consisted  of  females  alone. 
Here,  beyond  all  question,  the  principle  could  not  be  applied.  But  suppose  a  nation 
made  up  both  of  men  and  women.  Can  any  gentleman  shew  me  a  reason  drawn 
from  nature,  which  subjects  females,  as  such,  and  because  of  their  sex  only,  to  the 
dominion  of  men  ?  Men  might  indeed  govern  them  by  a  greater  physical  force  ;  but 
so  also,  might  they  govern  in  the  same  way,  all  men  as  well  as  women,  who  were 
weaker  than  themselves.  I  repeat,  that  if  gentlemen  have  found  any  such  principle 
of  natural  law,  they  have  had  access  to  fountains  of  information,  which  are  inac- 
cessible to  me.  A  female  may  change  her  relations  by  entering  into  the  married 
state,  and  impair  her  original  rights,  to  the  extent  of  the  obligations  contracted  by 
this  change.  But  a  female  who  is  of  mature  age,  and  unmarried,  is  in  possession  of 
all  her  rights  ;  those  rights  are  by  nature  the  same  with  those  of  the  other  sex  ;  and 
men,  merely  as  such,  have  no  natural  right  to  exercise  any  control  over  her  whatso- 
ever. And  yet  the  reason  assigned,  for  excluding  females  from  the  exercise  of  poli- 
tical rights  is,  that  they  are  under  the  dominion  of  men.  When  a  female  is  married, 
and  the  relation  of  husband  and  wife  exists,  then  the  power  of  the  husband,  is  co-ex- 
tensive with  his  duties  ;  but  co-extensive  only.  The  utmost  bound,  therefore,  of  the 
dominion  of  men,  even  over  married  women,  is  limited  to  the  circle  of  domestic  rela- 
tions. Gentlemen  would  find  it  difficult  to  prove,  tliat  if  a  woman  were  the  wife  of 
a  man,  blindly  attached  to  despotic  Government,  she  would  be  obliged  to  sacri- 
fice the  enjoyment  of  all  the  blessings  of  civil  liberty,  to  his  whim,  by  being  constrain- 
ed to  abide  there  against  her  will.  It  will  not  be  contended,  that  females  are  to  be 
excluded  for  the  want  of  capacity.  I  will  not  fatigue  the  Committee,  by  quoting  many 
examples  to  prove  the  contrary.  History  presents  us  the  records  of  multitudes,  who 
have  been  illustrious  in  literature,  in  arms,  and  in  council.  Writers  have  selected 
the  reign  of  Elizabeth,  as  one  of  the  brightest  periods  of  English  history  ;  and  with 
respect  to  the  II.  Catharine  of  Russia,  I  need  only  remind  the  House  of  a  single  in- 
cident, which  occurred  in  years  long  past  by,  but  which  proves  the  prophetic  grasp 
of  her  mmd,  and  which  is  illustrated  by  the  almost  literal  fulfilment  of  the  prophecy, 
in  the  events  passing  in  Europe  at  this  very  hour  ;  I  allude  to  the  fact,  of  her  having 
inscribed  over  a  splendid  gate,  which  she  erected,  near  the  frontier  of  her  empire, 
"  This  is  the  road  to  Byzantium." 

Let  us  look  for  a  moment  at  the  case  of  the  minor  :  the  father's  power  over  him  is 
precisely  co-oxtensive  too,  and  co-extensive  only,  with  his  duties,  to  wit,  maintenance, 
education,  &c.:  from  the  moment  that  he  is  able  to  take  care  of,  and  provide  for  him- 
self, he  is  by  nature,  utterly  free  from  the  control  of  his  father;  his  subjection  was 
only  during  his  dependence  ;  remove  the  one,  and  the  other  ceases. 

Municipal  laws  have  fixed  arbitrary  periods  for  the  maturity  of  man,  and  his  inde- 
pendence of  paternal  control  :  by  some,  it  is  fixed  at  twenty-one  years  ;  by  others  at 
twenty-three,  and  differently  in  others  :  nature  has  settled  no  period  of  months  or  of 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


93 


years  :  by  her  laws,  whensoever  lie  shall  acquire  strength  of  mind  and  body  to  pro- 
vide for  himself,  from  that  moment,  he  is  under  no  control  on  earth. 

Is  the  argument  consistent  in  another  particular  ?  Gentlemen  say  that  taxation 
must  in  no  degree,  be  permitted  to  form  a  constituent  element  of  the  basis  of  repre- 
sentation. Representation,  say  they,  implies  constituents  ;  taxation  does  not.  Well, 
Sir,  does  not  the  same  reasoning  apply,  to  exclude  from  the  estimate  of  numbers,  as 
a  basis  of  representation,  all  who  are  excluded  from  representation  itself  ?  If  you 
must  exclude  taxation,  because  it  has  no  constituent  for  its  correllative,  does  not  the 
same  reasoning  apply  to  all.  who  do  not  possess  the  elective  franchise  ?  They,  too, 
must  be  excluded  from  the  basis  ;  and  so  upon  gentlemen's  own  grounds,  that  basis, 
instead  of  extending  to  all  the  white  population  of  the  Commonwealth,  should  be 
confined  to  voters  alone. 

The  gentlemen  have  pressed  upon  us  certain  other  positions  from  the  Bill  of  Rights; 
the  declaration  that  all  power  resides  of  right  in  the  people,  and  that  a  majority,  may 
alter,  rescind,  or  new-model  the  Government  at  pleasure.  I  shall  not  call  in  question 
the  truth  of  the  doctrine,  that  all  power  resides  in  the  people,  nor  is  it  necessary  to 
enquire  into  the  truth  of  the  next  proposition,  that  a  majority  of  the  people  may  alter 
their  Government  at  pleasure.  These  two  propositions,  if  I  rightly  understood  the 
able  argument  of  the  gentleman  from  Brooke,  were  brought  to  shew  that  a  majority 
must  necessarily  have  the  control  in  every  free  Government.  I  shall  not  retrace  the 
ground  so  well  occupied  on  this  subject  by  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  except 
so  far  as  to  confirm  the  truth  of  one  of  his  remarks.  As  to  any  original  and  inherent 
right  of  the  majority  to  rule,  it  could  not  exist,  antecedently  to  Government.  Majo- 
rity is  a  relative  term.  It  implies  an  interchange  of  opinion  among  persons  convened 
for  council,  and  whose  decision  is  to  control  the  action  of  the  whole  number  so  as- 
sembled, or  of  others  connected  with  them.  But  this  state  of  things  could  not  exist 
in  a  state  of  nature.  Nothing  in  the  shape  of  Government  belongs  to  that  state.  Each 
man  stands  upon  his  own  intrinsic  rights.  Nay,  so  far  does  one  writer  carry  this  princi- 
ple, as  to  maintain  that,  in  order  to  form  a  social  compact,  wliich  shall  bind  all  those  who 
enter  into  it,  perfect  unanimity  is  necessary  among  them  all :  and  though  the  whole 
family  of  man  were  to  enter  into  such  a  compact,  if  one  single,  solitary  individual  re- 
fuses his  assent,  the  compact  has  no  binding  povv^er  as  it  respects  him. 

I  do  not  say  that  to  carry  the  doctrine  to  this  length,  meets  my  approbation.  Permit 
me,  while  we  are  on  this  subject  of  majority,  to  make  a  few  additional  remarks.  Some 
writers  give  us  a  very  quaint  and  affected  account  of  it.  One  of  great  celebrity,  so 
defines  the  power  of  the  majority,  as  to  declare,  that  when  a  man  is  called  upon  to 
vote,  he  is  not  to  vote  according  to  his  own  opinion,  but  according  to  his  notion  of 
what  is  the  public  will :  and  if  it  shall  turn  out  that  the  majority  is  against  him,  then 
it  only  appears,  that  he  has  mistaken  the  public  will.  I  do  not  say  that  I  adopt  any 
such  sentiment;  but  I  mention  this,  as  an  example  of  one,  among  the  infinite  number 
of  theories,  which  have  been  broached  on  the  general  subject.  Sir,  is  there  any  rule, 
for  the  dominion  of  a  majority,  so  invariable,  as  the  gentleman  seems  to  suppose.''  To 
test  this,  let  us  look  at  the  history  of  our  own  country;  both  in  the  State  and  the 
Federal  forms  of  its  Government.  Surely,  if  the  gentleman  is  correct  in  supposing, 
that  the  right  of  a  majority  to  rule,  is  derived  from  a  natural  law,  it  ought  to  have 
that  character  of  uniformity,  which  distinguishes  all  such  laws  ;  and  then  it  could  not 
be  subject  to  such  multiplied  exceptions,  as  we  find  to  exist  in  fact,  in  its  practical 
operation.  Look  first  at  the  Federal  Government,  whether  in  its  Executive,  its  Le- 
gislative, or  its  Judicial  Department;  and  we  shall  find,  that  a  majority  is,  in  many  in- 
stances, subject  to  the  control  of  a  minority,  greater,  but  by  a  single  unit,  than  one- 
third  of  the  whole.  If  the  President  of  the  United  States,  shall  refuse  to  sign  a  bill, 
passed  by  both  Houses  of  Congress,  and  shall  return  that  bill  to  them  with  his  reasons 
for  such  refusal,  the  consent  of  two-tliirds  of  the  members  of  both  Houses  is  requisite 
before  such  bill  can  become  a  law. 

The  Senate  of  the  United  States  hold  a  double  capacity,  being  a  branch,  as  well  of 
the  Executive,  as  of  the  Legislative  Department  of  Government;  and  when  it  acts  in, 
its  Executive  capacity,  two-thirds  of  the  members  present  must  concur,  before  any 
treaty  formed  by  the  President,  can  receive  its  due  ratification.  Here,  again,  and  in 
concerns  too,  of  the  utmost  importance,  a  majority  is  subject  to  the  will  of  the  mino- 
rity. So,  in  the  Judicial  Department,  (the  quasi  Judicial,  at  any  rate,  for  the  Senate 
when  it  sits  to  try  impeachments,  is,  in  fact,  a  Judicative  power,  and  acts  entirely  in 
a  Judicial  character;)  vAien  the  Senate  thus  sits,  two-thirds  of  the  members  present 
are  necessary  to  convict  the  party  impeached.  Here,  again,  is  found  a  minority,  con- 
trolling the  will  of  the  majority. 

Again,  Sir  : — Let  us  now  look  nearer  home.  What  is  our  sj'stem  of  elections,  as  it 
exists  in  Virginia,  and  in  most  of  the  States  of  the  Union,  when  brought  down  to  its 
actual  practical  operation  ?  Is  it  a  majority  only,  which  in  each  election  district,  has 
the  power  of  sending  a  Delegate,  to  either  House  of  the  Legislature?  No,  Sir,  a  sim- 
ple plurahty  enjoys  that  power.    If,  then,  in  a  certain  district,  there  be  ten  candidates 


94 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Bet  up,  and  neither  one  of  the  ten  shall  receive  even  one-ffth,  (far  less  a  majority)  of 
all  the  votes  given,  yet,  if  he  receive  but  a  single  vote  wore  than  either  of  the  other 
candidates,  he  is  returned  to  the  Legislature  as  duly  elected.  And  though  so  elected, 
he  is  to  all  practical  purposes,  the  representative  of  all  the  people  of  that  district;  yet 
a  majority  of  four  to  one  was  opposed  to  his  election.  Does  the  majority  rule  here, 
Sir.^  I  need  not  refer  to  the  well  known  case  of  our  Juries,  where  the  vote  of  one 
man  balances  the  vote  of  eleven  men;  yet  such  an  arrangement  is  thought  wise,  and 
has,  for  centuries  past,  challenged  and  received  the  admiration  of  all  reflecting  men. 
So  far,  then,  from  the  rule's  being  a  universal  one,  in  all  free  Governments;  in  our 
own  Government,  the  freest  upon  earth,  a  minority  of  one-third  controls  a  majority  of 
two-thirds :  A  minority  of  one-fifth  may  control  a  majority  of  four-fifths :  Nay,  Sir,  a 
minority  of  one,  does  every  day  control  a  majority  of  eleven.  It  is  not  as  gentlemen 
say,  that  a  minority  governs  a  majority  ;  no.  Sir,  the  minority  under  certain  circum- 
stances, not  having  the  power  of  action  themselves,  are  enabled  to  control  the  action 
of  the  majority  :  in  the  language  of  Tully,  in  relation  to  the  Tribunes  of  the  people 
at  Rome,  they  have  not  the  power  to  do  mischief  themselves;  they  have  only  the 
power,  to  prevent  it  from  being  done,  by  others.  Let  us  pursue  the  chain  one  link 
further,  and  let  us  bring  the  principle  into  the  Halls  of  Legislation.  It  is  susceptible 
of  mathematical  demonstration,  that  you  can  have  no  certainty  of  hearing  the  voice 
of  a  majority  of  the  people  of  any  State,  unless  that  State  votes  by  a  general  ticket. 
Much  as  that  practice  has  been  objected  to,  as  applied  in  another  election,  it  may  be 
demonstrated,  that  in  many,  if  not  in  most  cases,  a  will  prevails,  which  is  contrary  to 
the  will  of  a  majority  of  the  people.  For  example  :  If  all  the  people  of  Virginia 
should  assemble  on  one  day,  I  do  not  say  in  one  place,  but  at  their  several  polls,  and 
should  all  vote  for  the  same  individual,  a  majority  of  their  votes  would,  no  doubt,  ex- 
press the  will  of  a  majority  of  the  people.  But  on  any  system  of  practical  election, 
your  State  must  be  cut  up  into  districts,  and  as  the  fractional  minorities  of  these  seve- 
ral districts,  like  the  fractional  minorities  in  different  States,  cannot  be  transferred 
from  one  district  to  another,  it  may  happen,  and  does  happen,  that  an  individual  may 
be  elected  contrary  to  the  will  of  a  very  large  majority  of  those  who  voted  in  the 
election;  and  then,  of  course,  so  far  as  representation  is  concerned,  there  is  the  will- 
of  a  great  majority  against  any  measure  which  may  be  passed  by  Delegates  so  chosen. 

What,  then,  is  the  conclusion  to  which  I  am  brought  by  this  train  of  reasoning? 
It  is  this:  that  there  exists  no  such  thing  as  a  fixed,  invariable  rule,  on  this  subject. 
The  parties  to  the  civil  compact,  in  establishing  a  Government,  and  organizing  its  va- 
rious Departments,  impart  to  the  system  which  is  the  creature  of  their  will,  such  prin- 
ciples as  they  have  found  to  be  prudent  and  just.  In  politics,  as  in  morals,  the  best 
test  of  propriety  is  practical  utility.  There  can  be  no  other.  No  other  has  ever  been 
successfully  acted  upon.  If  you  go  to  mere  a  priori  principles,  then  a  pure,  unmix- 
ed, democracy  would  seem  the  best  form  of  Government:  but  the  experiment  has 
been,  long  ago,  abandoned;  and  why?  upon  grounds  of  practical  utility. 

The  next  step,  in  theory,  is,  that  every  one  should  vote  :  but  this  plan  is  abandoned 
even  by  the  friends  of  the  present  resolution  :  and  why  so  for  the  same  reason  as 
before,  it  cannot  bear  the  test  of  practical  utility.  The  same  principle  applies  to  any 
other  subject  of  enquiry.  A  majority  of  the  people  have  a  right  to  re-model  the 
Government,  in  any  way  they  may  consider  as  most  promotive  of  the  public  welfare. 
We,  Sir,  are  now  the  representatives  of  that  majority.  What  do  we  judge  most 
for  the  public  weal  ?  Even  if  the  doctrine  of  the  power  of  the  majority  be  conceded, 
it  is  only  necessary  to  point  gentlemen  to  what  is  daily  the  fact,  to  shew  that  the 
people,  though  they  may  not  act  nominally  by  a  majority,  yet  do  so  substantially,  and 
in  effect.  Suppose  we  shall  determine  that  a  mixed  basis  of  representation  is  to  be 
preferred  to  a  basis  of  numbers  only;  then  whether  the  voters  be,  as  individual  units, 
a  majority  or  not,  yet  there  would,  in  truth,  be  a  majority  of  the  people  acting  :  all 
the  members  of  the  community  would  stipulate  with  each  individual  member,  and 
each  individual  would  stipulate  with  all  the  rest,  that  this  shall  be  their  form  of  Go- 
vernment. Because  whatever  should  be  afterwards  done,  no  matter  by  whom,  if 
according  to  the  Constitution,  would  be  done  by  the  will  of  the  majority,  because 
the  Constitution  itself,  would  have  been  ordained  by  that  will.  A  Judge  sentences  a 
prisoner  :  the  Judge  is  a  solitary  individual ;  but  he  acts  by  the  force  of  law,  which 
law  is  created  by  a  majority  of  the  people  acting  through  their  representatives,  whom 
they  have  appointed  their  agents  to  make  the  laws.  The  effect,  therefore,  is  pre- 
cisely the  same  as  if  the  sentence  of  the  Judge  had  been  pronounced  by  a  nominal 
majority. 

If  I  am  right,  we  must  discard  mere  theory,  adopt  nothing  on  the  ground  of  mere 
speculation,  but  proceed  to  men  and  things  as  they  are.  In  the  language  of  Solon, 
we  must  establish  not  the  best  possible,  but  the  best  practicable  Government.  We 
have  our  way  open  before  us.  There  is  no  question  as  to  our  power  to  introduce 
what  principles  we  please  ;  the  only  question  for  us  to  ask  is,  whether  the  principle 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


95 


be  ftt  ;  whether  it  be  mete  and  expedient  ;  vrhetlier  it  vrill  bear  tlie  test  of  practical 
utihtr  ? 

In' that  vie-w.  let  us  tlien  investigate  the  principle  which  is  novr  olfered  for  our 
adoption. 

If,  when  men  unite  to  form  a  social  compact,  they  surrendered  only  their  personal 
rights,  it  might  very  plainly  be  concluded,  tliat  numbers,  and  numbers  alone,  consti- 
tuted the  proper  basis  for  representation.  Upon  the  ordinary  principles  of  contracts 
made  between  man  and  man,  (for  the  social  compact  is  only  a  contract  of  all  the 
members  with  each  individual  member,  and  of  him  with  them,)  if  the  contracting 
parties  surrendered  only  their  personal  rights,  all  would  give,  and,  in  returnj  ail 
would  receive  the  same  equivalent.  But  when  they  surrender,  not  only  their  per- 
sonal rights,  but  their  property,  there  the  inequality  commences.  One  man  brings 
one-  amount  of  property,  another  man  brings  a  different  amount.  I  would  put  it  on 
the  principle  of  compensation  ;  the  principle  of  equivalents.  Is  it  right,  that  he 
who  has  surrendered  only  his  personal  rights,  should  receive  as  much  as  he  who 
surrenders  much  more  .-  "But.  it  is  said,  that  the  man  who  surrenders  his  property  to 
society,  receives,  as  an  equivalent,  the  protection  of  that  property,  and  that  the  two 
go  on  pari  passu  toofether.  This  argument  is  plausible  ;  and  it  would  be  sound,  if 
he  could  have  an  infallible  securit}-.  that  the  society,  or  the  Government,  which  is 
the  same  thing,  should  never  demand  from  him  a  greater  contribution  from  liis  pro- 
pertv,  than  merely  what  is  requisite  for  its  due  protection.  But  we  know  that  Go- 
vernment claims  the  right  (and  exercises  it  too)  of  drawing  on  the  purses  of  all  the 
members  of  the  community,  and  expends  hundreds,  yes,  myriads,  and  milhons  of 
monev,  on  schemes  of  internal  improvement,  and  a  thousand  other  objects  connected 
with  the  internal  police  of  the  country.  When  we  come  to  this  consideration,  does 
not  the  arofument  fail :  It  is  conceded  to  be  a  good  argument  as  far  as  mere  equiva- 
lent for  protection  goes  ;.  but  when  you  come  to  contribution  far  beyond  such  equiva- 
lent, the  argument  is  good  no  longer,  but  ceases  and  is  at  a  stand.  The  eloquent  and 
ingenious  gentleman  from  NorfoTk  (Mr.  Taylor)  compared  the  relation  between  the 
protection  afforded  to  property  on  one  hand,  and  the  taxes  levied  by  Govern- 
ment on  the  other,  to  the  case  of  the  underwriter  and  the  insured.  But,'l  need  not 
to  remind  that  gentleman  of  what  has  been  so  well  and  so  justly  said,  that  nothing 
is  so  apt  to  lead  us  into  error  as  a  simile.  If  we  commence  an  analogy  upon  a  sub- 
ject where  it  wiU  not  hold  throughout,  and  w-here  there  are  other  and  strong  points 
of  discrimination,  of  all  sources  of  error  there  is  none  so  fruitful  and  so  fatal  as  such 
mistaken  analogy.  Government,  the  gentleman  tells  us,  is  tlie  underwriter:  agreed. 
We,  he  proceeds,  who  pay  taxes,  are  the  insiured.  Sir,  if  in  this  case,  as  in  ordinary 
cases  of  insurance,  we  were  allowed  to  state  the  premium  we  are  willing  to  give,  and 
then  hear  on  what  terms  the  Government  were  willing  to  insure,  there  would  be 
some  such  analogy  as  he  supposes.  But  if  the  underwriter  may  first  demand  what 
premium  he  pleases,  and  afler  taking  that,  may  confiscate  what  portion  of  the  capital 
he  pleases,  besides,  the  case  is  altered.  To  a  gentleman  so  well  skilled  in  mercantile 
law,  as  I  know  that  gentleman  to  be.  it  is  unnecessary  that  I  cite  authorities.  I  admit 
that  if  we  had  the  exact  rate  of  premium  fixed  by  compromise,  as  between  buyer 
and  seller,  the  analogy  he  gives  might  be  tolerably  accurate.  But  where  the  under- 
writer has  the  whole  matter  in  his  own  hands,  and  the  insured  is  neither  consulted  as 
to  the  rate  of  premium,  nor  can  be  sure  of  not  forfeiting  a  large  part  of  his  capital 
into  the  bargain,  the  argmnent  fails  and  comes  to  an  end. 

Mr.  Chairman,  the  object  to  be  attained  by  the  amendment,  has  been  spoken  of  in 
some  parts  of  this  debate,  in  terms  which  indicate  that  gentlemen  consider  us  as 
aiming  to  perpetrate  injustice.  Sir.  if  I  know  my  own  heart.  I  would  not  contend 
for  any  object  on  this  floor,  which  I  did  not  conscientiously  believe  to  rest  upon  the 
soimdest  principle,  I  may  be  wrong  in  my  conclusions  :  I  may  mistake  the  causes 
firom  which  the  suo-gestions  of  my  judgment  have  proceeded  ,:  but  one  thing  I  do 
know,  that  I  shall  never  advocate  here,  (whatever  be  the  supposed  case  elsewhere.) 
any  principle  or  measure  wiiich  I  do  not  most  sincerely  beUeve  to  be  right.  Sir,  is 
the  principle  for  which  the  friends  of  the  amendment  are  contending,  a  principle  no- 
vel and  unknown  :  One  of  the  most  ardent  whigs  that  ever  advocated  the  cause  of 
free  principles,  a  man  who  has  done  more  to  promote  the  cause  of  equal  rights  and 
of  Parliamentary  reform  than  almost  any  man  of  this  day  in  England,  a  man  who  has 
pleaded  for  a  more  expanded  right  of  sufirage  in  th?t  country  than  any  of  his  asso- 
ciates, sums  up  his  doctrine,  and  hi?  demand  in  this  :  that  the  most  just  and  adequate 
representation  would  be.  that  which  is  i)i  proportion  to  the  contribution  of  the  differ- 
ent portions  of  society  lo  the  pubhc  expenses.  Yet  this  man  was  an  enthusiast  for 
liberty,  burning  with  a  holy  ardour  in  her  cause. 

It  is  urged  that  numbers  only  are  required,  and  a  property  qualification  entirely  dis- 
regarded in  many  of  our  sister  States.  So  far  as  this  argum^ent  goes.  I  answer  that  in 
North  Carolina  a  property  tax  of  some  sort  is  reqmred  in  the  election  of  Senators  ; 
in  South  Carolina,  the  House  of  Representatives  is  founded  upon  just  such  a  com- 


96 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


pound  basis  as  this  amendment  proposes,  and  in  Georgia,  an  allowance  is  made  of 
three-fifths  of  all  slave  property,  as  in  the  Federal  compact.  And  what  is  the  fact  in 
respect  to  our  sister  States  to  the  East?  In  New  Hampshire  and  Massachusetts,  tax- 
ation, so  far  from  being  disregarded,  is  made  the  sole  basis  as  respects  elections  to  the 
Senatorial  branch  of  the  Legislature  :  and  in  reference  to  Massachusetts  particularly, 
1  say  that  the  example  is  pregnant  with  useful  instruction.  The  experiment  there  has 
borne  the  test  of  forty  years  experience  ;  and  when,  a  few  years  since,  an  attempt  was 
made  to  alter  this  feature  of  their  Constitution,  after  solemn  argument,  it  was  retain- 
ed in  her  code.  We  are  i-eferred  to  the  experience  of  our  sister  States  :  Sir,  so  far  as 
experience  goes,  it  is  in  our  favor;  so  far  as  experiment  is  concerned,  it  is  against  us  : 
and  let  it  be  remembered  that  there  is  a  strong  and  marked  line  between  the  two.  Ex- 
perience is  like  the  light  of  the  sun,  bright,  constant,  and  uniform.  Experiment  is  a 
meteor,  transient  in  its  splendor,  and  uncertain  and  irregular  in  all  its  movements. 
Talk  to  me  of  the  experience  of  States  which  came  into  being  but  yesterday  !  Why,  Sir, 
I  have  myself,  assisted  in  the  creation  of  some  half  dozen  of  them.  States  in  their 
pupillage  :  or  who  have  just  escaped  from  it !  tell  the  people  of  Virginia  of  an  ignis 
fatuus  like  this  for  their  guide  !  talk  about  the  result  of  an  experiment  in  Government 
\vhicli  began  but  yesterday  !  Sir,  I  beg  leave  to  decline  to  follow  any  such  guide. 
If  I  must  have  guide  and  precedent,  I  had  rather  look  toward  the  steady  habits  of 
Massachusetts,  where  the  experiment  has  continued  forty  years  and  more  :  and  where 
that  experiment  was  in  the  full  tide  of  successful  progress,  when  those  States,  to 
whose  experience  we  are  so  reverently  referred,  were  naught  but  trackless  wilds, 
roamed  by  savages  in  quest  of  game,  and  who  have  not  had  time  even  for  an  experi- 
ment. Admitting  that  there  was  some  analogy  between  the  condition  of  Virginia, 
and  States,  in  circumstances  so  different,  still  1  say,  let  me  have  experience,  which, 
according  to  Lord  Verulam,  is  "  the  Mistress  of  the  world,"  and  not  experiment, 
which  is  the  worst  of  all  possible  guides.  And  why.  Sir.''  There  is  not  a  farmer  in 
your  State,  who  will  try  an  experiment,  that  is  suggested  to  him,  till  he  finds  out  that 
somebody  else  has  tried  it  before  him.  Shall  we  trust  to  an  authority  like  this,  in 
laying  the  foundation  of  our  Commonwealth 

A  strong  case  was  put  by  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk  (Mr.  Taylor)  to  shew  the  in- 
justice that  might  flow  from  taking  property  into  the  account,  in  fixing  our  basis  of 
representation.  He  supposed  a  country  to  contain  a  few  individuals  of  great  v/ealth, 
and  others  who  were  in  comparatively  humble  circumstances,  where  fifty  rich  men 
might,  through  the  weight  of  their  property,  out  vote  two  hundred  and  fifty  poor  men. 
We  are  far  from  contending  for  such  inequality  among  voters,  nor  do  we  desire  to  see 
it  prevail.  In  the  same  district,  we  would  make  all  the  voters  equal,  no  matter  how 
unequal  their  property.  But  how  did  the  gentleman  get  to  his  conclusion,  from  such 
premises  ?  I  believe  he  would  find  himself  puzzled  to  make  out  the  middle  term  of 
his  syllogism.  His  argument,  however,  has  been  already  answered  by  the  gentleman 
from  Northampton,  and  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  (Messrs.  Upshur  and  Leigh,) 
and  the  answer  is  this,  that  there  can  be  no  danger  of  the  rich  oppressing  the  poor  by 
Legislation,  where  both  reside  within  the  same  district  of  the  State,  and,  therefore, 
have  a  community  of  local  feeling  and  interest.  I  have  another  answer  to  it.  It  is  of 
the  nature  of  a  representative  Government,  that  it  stands  on  the  basis  of  responsibility. 
The  representative  is  answerable  to  those  who  gave  him  his  power.  But  if  we  are  to 
be  taxed,  as  a  people,  by  individuals,  not  responsible  to  us  for  their  public  acts,  the 
Government  is  done  from  that  moment. 

I  make  a  distinction  between  civil  liberty  and  political  liberty.  Under  a  Govern- 
ment of  an  oligarchical,  or  even  a  monarchical  form,  civil  liberty  may,  nevertheless, 
be  enjoyed,  and  to  a  very  considerable  extent.  For  Princes,  born  to  even  a  despotic 
throne,  may  perchance,  be  of  a  gentle  and  benevolent  temper,  and  in  no  wise  dispos- 
ed to  exercise  the  oppressive  pov/er  with  which  the  Constitution  has  invested  them. 
Augustus,  as  we  all  knov/,  swayed  the  sceptre  of  the  world,  during,  at  least  a  part  of 
his  reign,  with  clemency  and  forbearance.  But  this  is  not  political  liberty.  I  may 
enjoy  a  large  measure  of  personal  freedom  under  such  a  Government,  but  I  enjoy  it 
by  permission,  by  sufferance  merely.  To  convert  this  freedom  into  political  liberty,  it 
must  be  made  mine  of  right,  and  I  must  have  the  means  of  securing  it.  Now,  to  apply 
this  doctrine  to  the  argument  of  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk.  The  delegate,  who  re- 
sides in  the  same  district  with  his  constituents,  returns  back  to  them,  and  is  responsible 
to  them  for  his  political  acts  ;  the  citizens  hold  him  by  a  strong  cord  ;  and  if  he  has  not 
been  a  good  steward,  he  may  certainly  calculate  tDn  meeting  his  reward.  But,  how 
does  this  principle  apply,  when  he  who  lays  the  tax,  and  they  who  are  to  pay  it,  reside 
in  dilferent  portions  of  the  State  ?  He  may  vote  ruin  to  his  tellow-citizens  in  a  distant 
part  of  the  State,  and  never  be  called  to  account  for  it !  They  did  not  elect  him,  and 
they  cannot  call  him  to  any  account  for  his  stewardship. 

[Mr.  Taylor  here  rose  to  explain  :  He  said  he  had  waited  until  the  gentleman 
from  Orange  had  completed  his  argument  on  this  point ;  he  had  not  risen  to  answer 
it ;  but  solely  for  the  purpose  of  starting  the  position  he  had  taken,  and  the  principle 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


97 


on  which  he  had  relied,  in  the  argument  he  formerly  addressed  to  the  Convention. 
What  I  say,  observed  Mr.  Taylor,  is,  that  our  Government  rests  on  the  principle  of 
equal  rights,  among  all  men  who  are  worthy  of  political  power ;  and  I  contend  that 
on  that  principle  rests  the  safety  of  our  free  institutions.  If  you  fix  the  terms  of  qua- 
lification by  a  fundamental  law,  declaring  who  may  vote,  and  who  may  not,  then  my 
position  is,  that  there  exists  a  perfect  equality  of  rights,  among  all  the  voters  thus 
qualified.  If,  in  a  district  giving  300  votes,  250  votes  shall  not  elect  a  representative, 
while  the  remaining  50  do  elect  him,  I  say  that  you  destroy  all  free  principle,  and 
disguise  it  as  you  will,  call  it  what  you  please,  you  do,  in  effect,  establish  an  aristocra- 
cy, an  odious  aristocracy  of  wealth.  You  all  oppose  the  admission  of  such  a  princi- 
ple tcithbi  your  county  lines ;  and  repudiate  it  as  aristocratical  in  its  character. 
Why  is  it  less  aristocratical  or  less  odious,  when  extended  to  districts,  or  to  the  State 
at  large These  were  my  positions,  and  this  was  my  argument.] 

Mr.  Barbour  resumed.  He  had  never  knowingly  misstated  the  argument  of  any 
gentleman  opposed  to  him :  and  with  due  submission,  he  still  contended,  that  he  had 
neither  misstated,  nor  misunderstood  the  argument  of  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk. 
His  argument,  said  Mr.  B.  was  based  on  the  equality  of  all  the  voters  within  a  given 
district,  and  went  to  sho  v  that  the  same  principle  of  equality  ought  to  be  extended  to 
all  other  districts  ;  and,  in  reply  to  this  argument,  I  was  going  on  to  show  the  difference 
between  the  cases  of  a  representative  elected  (by  whatever  rule)  from  the  district 
where  he  resides,  and  returning  again  to  that  district,  responsible  for  his  publ  c  con- 
duct, and  that  of  a  representative,  chosen  in  one  part  of  the  State,  and  who  has  by 
his  public  acts,  oppressively  injured  another  and  a  distant  part  of  it,  to  which  he  is 
not  responsible,  and  by  which  he  cannot  be  punished.  And  though  rich  and  poor 
men,  have  an  equal  vote  in  the  same  district,  yet  there  is  safety  to  property,  not  only 
because  there  is  a  community  of  feeling  and  interest,  but  because  of  the  responsibility 
which  the  representative  thus  elected,  owes  to  all  his  constituents,  both  rich  and  poor, 
and  who  are  interested  in  proportion  to  their  respective  property.  And  here  permit 
me  to  make  an  earnest  and  most  sincere  disclaimer  of  all  intention  to  impute  to  my 
fellow-citizens  of  Virginia,  any  thing  like  an  improper  purpose.  I  have  no  such  belief 
whatever,  but  give  to  them  all  that  credit  for  integrity  of  motive,  which  I  claim  for 
myself.  But  while  faith  is  the  surest  of  all  foundations  in  jnatters  of  religion,  the 
very  reverse  of  faith,  is  the  true  foundation  of  all  free  Governments.  They  are  found- 
ed in  jealousy,  and  guarded  by  caution  ;  nor  can  the  spirit  of  liberty  long  survive 
among  any  people  where  this  jealous  vigilance  is  not  kept  in  perpetual  vigour.  In 
Monarchies,  its  action  is  against  the  Monarch.  Here,  in  the  United  States,  so  fully 
is  it  known  and  recognized,  that  the  people  have  written  it  on  all  their  gates,  and  ex- 
ercise it  not  merely  against  their  official  agents,  but  even  against  themselves.  To  pre- 
vent the  people  of  Virginia  from  being  carried  away,  by  their  own  partialities,  into  a 
premature  confidence,  they  have  themselves  declared,  that  the  people  shall  not  elect 
any  man  to  the  House  of  Delegates,  who  is  under  25  years  of  age,  nor  to  the  Senate, 
who  is  under  30.  Sir,  I  speak  of  human  nature  as  it  is.  I  "  nothing  extenuate  nor 
aught  set  down  in  malice."  I  draw  no  lines  of  partial  discrimination  :  but  I  take  my 
stand  on  the  great  principle  which  I  have  mentioned,  that  not  faith,  but  the  reverse  of 
faith,  is  the  foundation  of  all  good  Government,  and  that  no  nation  is  free,  unless 
they  possess  political  liberty,  by  which  I  understand  the  power  to  secure  their  own 
freedom. 

We  have  heard  much  said  against  the  principle  of  the  amendment,  as  going  in 
practice,  to  make  an  unjust  discrimination  in  favour  of  the  rich.  But,  gentlemen 
should  recollect,  that  it  proposes,  within  the  electoral  districts  of  this  State,  no  distinc- 
tion between  the  high  and  the  low.  But  no  man,  Mr.  Chairman,  need  to  feel  greatly 
alarmed,  on  the  score  of  wealth  among  us.  Those  who  have  lived  but  for  a  few  years, 
may  see,  from  an  inspection  of  the  map  of  Virginia,  how  fleeting  are  all  human  pos- 
sessions. The  wheel  of  fortune  never  stands  still,  but  is  in  a  state  of  perpetual  revo- 
lution. He  who  was  on  the  summit  yesterday,  may  be  at  the  bottom  to-day.  It  was 
well  said  that  primogeniture,  and  the  law  of  entails,  are  the  two  columns  of  Monar- 
chy;  and  that  the  breakino-  down  of  entails,  and  passing  the  act  of  parcenary,  se- 
cured a  perpetual  chanore  in  the  possession  of  property.  There  exists  not  the  slight- 
est danger  of  a  permanent  concentration  of  wealth,  in  any  one  portion  of  our  coun- 
try, or  among  any  particular  class  of  our  citizens. 

With  proper  deference,  I  would  take  leave  to  suggest,  that  throughout  a  great  part 
of  this  discussion,  gentlemen  have  confounded  civil  rights  with  political  power.  An 
argument,  which  goes  for  the  security  of  civil  rights,  involves  considerations  of  one 
kind ;  wliile  an  argument  for  the  distribution  of  political  power,  involves  considera- 
tions of  a  very  different  description.  All  the  individuals  of  the  discarded  classes,  to 
which  reference  has  already  been  made,  are  fully  entitled  to  the  enjoyment  of  civil 
rights.  Minors,  women,  (for,  in  this  respect,  the  ladies  are  as  fully  in  possession  of 
these  rights,  as  any  of  the  lordly  sex,)  and  even  aliens,  except  as  to  the  tenure  and 
transmission  of  real  estate ;  and  even  that  distinction  has  been  gradually  frittered 

13 


98 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION, 


away  to  a  mere  form.  When  the  question  has  respect  to  civil  rights,  no  distinction  can 
take  place  from  age,  sex,  or  any  of  the  other  causes  which  operate  in  the  other  case, 
unless,  indeed,  under  circumstances  of  an  extraordinary  kind ;  but,  when  the  ques- 
tion has  reference  to  political  power,  then  we  must  have  respect  to  age,  to  sex,  to 
birth  ;  and  a  variety  of  circumstances,  which  go,  in  practice,  to  exclude  from  the  pos- 
session of  it,  a  large  majority  of  every  community.  Here  we  must  of  necessity  look 
at  the  condition  of  the  individual,  and  determine  whether  he  has  the  requisites  for  the 
enjoyment  and  exercise  of  that  power.  Some  items  of  qualification,  all  must  admit, 
the  payment  of  tax,  and  some  residence  within  the  State,  are  required  by  the  gentle- 
men themselves  :  they  call  the  possession  of  these  qualifications,  a  fitness  for  the  elec- 
tive franchise  ;  while  some  of  them  have  so  far  extended  the  qualification,  as  to  re- 
quire permanent  residence,  and  either  nativity  or  naturalization. 

Now,  then,  the  question  comes  back  upon  vis  ;  if  it  be  right,  because  Government 
operates  on  persons,  that  persons  ought  to  be  represented  ;  is  it  not  equally  right,  that 
because  it  operates  on  property,  property  ought  to  be  represented Take  the  con- 
verse of  this  position  ;  and  how  will  it  work  What  would  the  gentlemen  say  to  a 
Government  where  property  only  was  represented  and  persons  excluded  ?  None  of 
them  would  accord  to  it ;  yet  we  have  an  example  of  such  a  state  of  things  in  the 
Roman  Government. 

It  is  the  distribution  of  the  State  into  centuries,  where  property  alone  was  taken  into 
view.  Afterwards,  indeed,  according  to  their  usual  course,  that  people  went  into  the 
opposite  extreme  ;  and  then  the  State  was  divided  into  tribes,  in  which  people  alone 
were  considered,  and  property  was  wholly  disregarded.  In  the  State  of  Massachu- 
setts, as  I  have  already  stated,  they  go  to  the  extent  of  making  property  the  only  cri- 
terion in  voters  for  one  branch  of  their  Legislature.  But  I  ask,  neither  for  Comitiahj 
centuries,  nor  Comitia  by  tribes.  I  ask  for  a  compound  ratio  of  both.  Both  are  equally 
at  the  command  of  the  Legislature,  and  both  need  security  against  an  abuse  of  power. 
j3  priori  indeed  ;  as  it  is  conceded  by  all,  that  because  the  Government  acts  upon  per- 
sons, they  should  be  represented,  so  in  like  manner,  as  Government  acts  upon  pro- 
perty, tire  owners  of  that  property  ought  to  have  some  representation  in  reference 
to  it,  as  between  the  different  districts  of  the  Commonwealth.  If  this  be  true  as  a 
general  principle,  it  applies  emphatically  to  the  particular  condition  of  Virginia;  in 
the  eastern  part  of  which,  there  is  almost  half  the  population,  which,  as  smcA,  would 
be  excluded  upon  the  white  basis,  whilst  at  the  same  time,  that  population  as  j)roperty, 
pays  an  enormous  disproportion  of  the  tax  ;  thus  presenting  the  striking  fact,  that  the 
very  cause  which  would  forever  keep  down  the  eastern  i'epi*esentation,much  below  its 
standard,  would  forever  aggravate  their  taxation,  far  beyond  a  just  standard.  The 
amendment  under  discussion,  proposes  some  remedy  for  this  great  injustice. 

It  is  the  natural  desii'e  of  us  all,  to  lay  the  foundations  of  this  Constitution  in  such 
a  manner,  that  it  shall  stand  and  endure.  If  that  be  our  purpose,  we  must  rest  it  on 
these  two  great  columris  :  Persons  and  property.  Withdraw  either,  and  you  have  a 
weak  and  tottering  edifice,  whicii  never  can  endure  the  shocks  of  time.  If  I  might 
venture  upon  a  simile,  I  would  compare  our  Constitution  to  an  extensive  and  delicate 
piece  of  machinery.  If  the  engineer  who  devised  its  structure,  shall  so  arrange  its 
internal  wheels,  that  they  act  in  opposite  directions,  and  on  antagonist  principles,  the 
result  must,  of  necessity,  be,  that  its  works  can  easily  be  put  ovit  of  order,  and.  that 
the  machine  itself  is  not  likely  to  last.  But,  if,  on  the  contrary,  he  shall  so  arrange  the 
various  parts,  that  all  its  wheels  shall  move  in  one  direction  ;  that  all  the  principles  of 
its  action  shall  be  harmonious  and  uniform  ;  that  there  shall  be  no  cla.sliing  of  wheel 
against  wheel,  but  all  shall  move  by  one  law,  and  to  one  end ;  then  the  machine, 
while  it  reflects  credit  upon  the  skill  and  ingenuity  of  its  author,  will  accomplish  the 
beneficial  purposes  for  which  it  was  designed,  and  will  continue  to  work,  without 
needing  any  material  repairs,  to  an  indefinite  period  of  time.  We  have  an  instruc- 
tive warning  on  this  subject  in  the  history  and  fate  of  the  Ancient  Republics.  When- 
ever, in  any  of  their  Constitutions,  persons  and  property,  were  set  in  opposition  to 
each  other,  the  result  invariably  was  found  to  be,  heart-burnings,  conflicts,  confusion, 
bloodshed,  civil  war,  anarchy,  and  finally,  the  utter  and  disastrous  downfall  of  liberty, 
and  the  establishment  of  Despotic  Government.  I  would  place  these  two  principles 
side  by  side,  in  perfect  harmony.  I  would  encoutage  nothing  like  distrust,  or  conflict 
between  them;  but  would  blend  their  action  into  perfect  concert,  and  thus  produce 
lasting  tranquillity.  If  persons  remained  safely  protected,  beneath  the  overshadowing 
power  of  the  State,  I  would  have  property  protected  too.  On  the  other  hand,  the 
safety  of  property  was  put  under  the  guarantee  of  the  Constitution  ;  I  would  build 
upon  the  same  organic  basis,  the  perfect  security  of  persons.  It  is  the  interest  of  this 
great  community  to  keep  the  provisions  of  its  Government,  safe  and  inviolate  :  make 
those  provisions  just,  and  then  they  will  abide  long;  and  the  edifice  of  State,  subject 
only  to  that  infirmity  which  is  the  inheritance .  and  the  characteristic  of  man,  shall 
stand  for  posterity,  secure  from  internal  danger,  and  equally  safe,  as  I  trust  and  be- 
lieve, from  external  violence. 


DEBATES    OF   THlT  CONVENTION. 


99 


Mr.  Baldwin,  of  Augusta,  after  assigning  his  motives  for  addressing  the  Commit- 
tee at  that  period  of  the  debate,  and  his  intention  to  present  his  views  of.  the  subject 
with  as  much  brevity  as  practicable,  proceeded  to  state  the  question  under  considera- 
tion. The  resolution  reported  by  the  Legislative  Conmiittee,  and  the  amendment 
proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Gulpeper,  present  the  question,  whether  representa- 
tion ought  to  be  apportioned  equally  amongst  the  citizens  of  this  Coiamonwealth, 
who  shall  be  admitted  to  the  right  of  suffrage,  according  to  numbers,  or  whether  it  ~ 
shall  be  apportioned  amongst  them  unequally,  by  adopting  a  basis  compounded  of 
numbers  and  taxation.  It  is  a  question,  so  far  as  relates  to  numbers,  between  equa- 
lity on  the  one  hand,  and  inequality  on  the  other ;  and  after  the  adirhssions  made  by 
gentlemen  opposed  to  me  in  this  debate,  I  may  surely  venture  to  assert,  without 
much  fear  of  contradiction,  that  according  to  the  genius  of  our  political  institutions, 
whenever  a  question  arises  concerning  the  distribution  of  pov»"er,  amongst  tlae  people 
themselves,  the  source  of  all  power,  the  rule  of  equality  ought  to  prevail,  unless 
some  good  reason  be  shewn  to  the  contrary.  The  gentleman  from  Culpeper  QAx. 
Green)  and  the  gentleman  from  Northampton  (Mr.  Upshur)  have  both  conceded, 
that  under  a  Republican  Government,  it  is  correct,  as  a  general  rule,  that  the  power 
of  the  State  ought  to  be  placed  in  the  hands  of  the  majority  of  its  citizens  ;  but 
they  contend  tliat  peculiar  circumstances  may  exist,  wliich  would  render  the  appli- 
cation of  that  rule  unjust  and  hnpolitic.  On  this  occasion,  they  conceive  that  a  suf- 
ficient reason  to  justity  an  exception,  may  be  found  in  the  contrariety  of  interests 
prevailing  in  different  sections  of  this  Commonwealth.  If  all  the  various  portions  of 
Virginia  were  entirely  assimilated  in  territory,  population,  wealth  and  resources,  nei- 
ther of  the  gentlemen  referred  to,  nor  I  presume  any  member  of  this  Committee, 
would  hesitate  for  a  moment  to  approve  the  basis  of  representation  proposed  by  the  re- 
solution we  are  now  considering. 

Notwithstanding  the  conflicting  interests  which  some  gentlemen  siTppose  to  exist  be- 
tween different  sections  of  the  Stat«,  none,  I  presume,  are  disposed  to  treat  this  contro- 
versy as  a  mere  struggle  for  power.  If  it  were  so  regarded,  all  discussion  of  the  subject 
would  be  worse^than  usekss.  It  would  be  mischievous.  It  would  only  ser^^e  to  in- 
flame our  own  minds,  and  scatter  throughout  the  community,  the  fire-brands  of  dis- 
cord. No,  Sir,  we  all  profess,  and  I  trust  sincerely,  to  be  desirous  of  arriving  at  a 
correct  conclusion,  and  to  be  engaged  in  this  comparison  of  sentiments,  for  the  pur- 
pose of  obtaining  light  from  the  spirit  of  our  institutions,  the  character  and  feelings 
of  our  people,  the  precepts  of  experience,  and  the  dictates  of  sound  policy.  It  has 
been  said  by  several  gentlemen  in  this  debate,  that  all  men  are  actuated  hy  self-inter- 
est ;  and  I  have  no  objection  to  the  proposition,  when  understood  to  embrace  that  no- 
ble and  enlightened  self-interest,  which  teaches  us  the  love  of  truth  and  justice, 
and  the  sacrihce  of  all  sordid  and  contracted  prejudices,  upon  the  altai's  of  duty  and 
patriotism. 

In  asserting  the  principles  which  in  my  opinion  elucidate  this  subject,  I  shall  not 
incur  the  imputation  of  indulging  in  abstract  discussion  ;  a  mode  of  argument  so 
much  deprecated  by  some  of  the  gentlemen  who  have  preceded  me,  and  which  I  ac- 
knowledge is  less  remarkable  for  its  utility,  than  its  intricate  and  almost  intermina- 
ble .character.  For  my  own  part.  Sir,  having  always  regarded  Government  as  prac- 
tical in  its  very  nature,  I  do  not  expect  that  we  shall  derive  much  useful  information 
from  the  best  constructed  theories,  though  sustained  with  all  the  powers  of  intellect, 
and  adorned  with  all  the  charms  of  eloquence.  I  was  delighted.  Sir,  with  the  logical 
and  beautiful  abstract  reasoning  employed  by  the  gentleman  from  Northampton  (Mr. 
Upshur,)  with  the  avowed  object  of  proving  that  abstractions  cannot  be  safely  relied 
upon,  in  matters  of  Government.  Let  us  leave,  then,  to  school-men  and  sophists,  all 
the  theories  concerning  the  origin  and  nature  of  Government  in  general,  and  save 
ourselves  the  trouble  of  enquiring  whether  it  should  be  traced  to  patriarchal  supre- 
macy, physical  force,  or  social  compact.  I  would  not  dispute  with  any  people,  the 
propriety  af  any  political  system  which  they  have  thought  proper  to  sanction  by  their 
approbation  or  acquiescence  ;  even  though  they  acknowledge  the  Divine  right  of 
Kings,  and  the  duty  of  passive  obedience,  or  boast  the  privileges  and  immunities  ex- 
torted from  the  fears  or  conceded  by  the  clemency  of  monarchs,  or  cherish  the 
aristocratic  notions  of  noble  birth,  subordination  of  ranks,  and  hereditary  authorit}^. 

And  yet,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  am  far  from  admitting  the  broad  proposition  which  has 
been  asserted  and  reiterated  in  this  debate,  that  there  are  no  principles  in  politics.  If, 
indeed,  gentlemen  mean  only  by  this  assertion,  that  there  are  no  abstract  principles 
of  Government  which  must  be  regarded  as  true  in  all  nations,  in  all  ages,  and  under 
all  circumstances.  I  should  consider  it  a  waste  of  time,  to  enter  into  any  controversy 
with  them  upon  the  subject.  But  surely.  Sir,  there  are  principles  of  a  practical  na- 
ture, without  which,- no  free  Government  can  exist,  and  a  frequent  recurrence  to 
which  is  indispensable,  in  order  to  justify  and  illustrate  its  institutions.  A  Govern- 
ment which  rests  upon  public  opinion,  cannot  be  sustained"  without  the  aid  of  such 
principles  ;  the  result,  if  you  please,  of  observation  and  experince,  but  sanctioned  by 


100 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


the  reason  and  cherished  in  the  affections  of  the  people,  and  which  may  be  confi- 
dently appealed  to,  on  all  important  questions,  affecting  their  safety  or  happiness. 

Ours,  iSlr.  Chairman,  is  emphatically  a  Government  of  principles  :  principles  es- 
tablished by  the  wisdom,  and  consecrated  with  the  blood  of  our  fathers.  It  is  cer- 
tainly not  our  purpose  to  tear  up  the  foundations  of  our  political  system,  and  estab- 
lish a  new  one  out  of  the  ruins  ;  our  object  is  to  reform  and  amend,  but  not  to  revo- 
lutionize. Witliout,  therefore,  indulging  in  abstract  theories,  or  referring  to  the  sys- 
tems of  other  nations,  let  us  resort  to  those  fundamental  truths  which  constitute  the 
basis  of  our  own  system.  W e  shall  find  them  all-sufficient  for  every  useful  purpose  ; 
they  will  serve  as  "  a  lamp  to  our  feet,  and  a  light  to  our  path,"  upon  this  or  any  other 
subject  of  our  duties. 

lu  this  country,  highly  favoured,  as  we  believe,  by  Heaven,  and  distinguished  for 
its  civil  and  political  liberties,  we  recognize  the  sovereignty  of  the  people,  the  fiduci- 
ary character  of  all  public  agents.  We  consider  the  people  not  only  as  the  objects 
and  subjects  of  Government,  but  as  the  governors  themselves  in  the  last  resort,  and 
the  only  safe  depositories  of  unlimited  power.  We  regard  the  organs  of  legislative 
authority  as  representatives  of  the  people,  accountable  to  them,  and  constituted  for 
the  purpose  of  expressing  their  will.  We  acknowledge  that  this  general  or  public 
will  must  prevail,  whether  in  the  ordinary  legislative  enactments,  or  in  the  construc- 
tion and  alteration  of  the  fundamental  laws.  As  unanimity  in  the  operations  of  such 
a  Government,  is  in  the  nature  of  things,  impracticable,  the  general  Avill  is  to  be  ex- 
pressed by  the  voice  of  the  majority.  This,  as  the  gentleman  from  Frederick  (Mr. 
Cooke)  has  correctly  stated,  is  a  rule  founded  upon  necessity  ;  for  otherwise,  the 
public  will  would  be  nugatory,  or  would  be  expressed  by  the  voice  of  the  minority, 
the  absurdity  of  which  is  manifest. 

None  of  these  principles  have,  as  yet,  been  controverted  in  this  debate.  It  has  not 
even  been  denied,  that  the  will  of  the  majority  ought  to  prevail ;  the  only  controver- 
sy is  in  regard  to  the  application  of  the  rule  ;  son?e  gentlemen  contending  that  a  ma- 
jority does  not  mean,  necessarily,  a  majority  of  numbers  alone.  On  this  point,  it  is 
only  necessary  that  reference  should  be  had  to  the  language  employed  in  our  Bill  of 
Rights,  which  asserts  that  a  majority  of  the  community  hath  an  indubitable,  unalien- 
able, and  indefeasible  right,  to  reform,  alter,  or  abolish  the  Government.  It  is  impos- 
sible thit  any  one  can  doubt  the  majority  here  spoken  of,  is  a  majority  of  numbers, 
and  not  a  majority  of  interests,  or  of  interests  and  numbers  combined.  It  is  true  that 
this  clause  in  the  Bill  of  Kights  Avas  not  intended  as  a  declaration,  that  in  all  cases 
whatever,  in  which  a  conflict  of  opinions  may  occur,  the  question  in  controversy  is  to  be 
decided  by  a  majority  of  numbers  ;  and  the  gentleman  from  Orange  (Mr.  Barbour)  has 
stated  various  exainples  in  which  tiae  rule  is  not  applicable.  The  principle  declared,  is 
obviously  in  reference  only  to  the  sovereign  right  of  the  people,  to  establish  or  change 
the  fundamental  law  ;  and  it  cannot  be  doubted,  that  the  majority  of  the  people  may,  if 
they  so  determine,  give  an  ascendancy  in  the  Government  to  the  minority.  But  is  it 
reasonable  that  they  should  do  so  and  would  not  such  a  transfer  of  power  be  a  gross 
violation  of  the  duty  which  they  owe  to  themselves  ?  The  majority  have  the  un- 
questioned right  to  change  the  very  foundations  of  Government,  and  distribute  poli- 
tical power  according  to  their  own  discretion  ;  and  yet  they  are  asked  to  subject 
themselves  and  their  posterity,  by  their  own  voluntary  act,  to  the  control  of  the  mi- 
nority. Should  they  do  so,  they  will  shew  themselves  well  worthy  of  becoming  "  hew- 
ers of  wood  and  drawers  of  water."  I  would  ask.  Sir,  if  there  is  any  one  here  who 
would  venture  to  propose,  that  when  the  Constitution,  which  we  are  engaged  in  pre- 
paring, shall  be  submitted  to  the  people  for  their  approval  or  rejection,  the  question 
shall  not  be  decided  by  the  majority  of  qualified  voters  .''  And  should  there  be  reserv- 
ed to  the  people,  as  undoubtedly  their  right,  a  veto  upon  the  enactments  of  the  Le- 
gislature, would  they  not,  in  the  exercise  of  that  direct  power,  decide  according  to 
numbers  ?  The  purpose  of  representation,  is  the  delegation  of  power  to  agents,  which 
the  people  cannot,  with  convenience,  immediately  exercise  themselves,  and  no  ine- 
quality ought  to  prevail,  in  regard  to  the  delegated  authority,  which  would  not  be 
admitted  amongst  those  from  whom  it  is  derived,  if  retained  by  them  in  their  own 
hands. 

I  have  thus  endeavored,  by  referring  to  well  established  principles,  to  shew  that  no 
inequality  ought  to  exist  in  the  exercise  of  the  elective  franchise.  It  is  true  that  the 
right  of  suffrage  itself,  may,  and  ought  to  be  limited.  All  those  are  to  be  excluded, 
who  cannot  be  expected  to  exercise  it  discreetly  ;  that  is  to  say,  in  such  manner  as  will 
promote  the  safety  and  happiness  of  themselves  and  the  rest  of  the  community. 
It  is  upon  this  principle,  that  various  classes,  embracing  many  individuals,  are  exclud- 
ed ;  of  which,  obvious  and  familiar  examples  have  been  stated  in  the  course  of  this 
debate.  It  is  upon  this  principle  alone,  that  any  freehold  or  other  property  quahfica- 
tion  can  be  required  from  the  electors.  The  qualifications,  of  whatever  nature,  are 
the  subjects  of  a  sound  and  wholesome  discretion,  and  ought  to  be  fairly  and  imparti- 
ally adjusted,  with  a  view  only  to  the  public  good,  and  not  for  the  purpose  of  elevating 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


101 


or  depressing  any  portions  of  society  .  But  when  once  established,  aH  those  entitled  to 
the  right  of 'suffrage  ought  to  be  admitted  upon  terms  of  perfect  equality.  We  can- 
not with  propriety,  distinguish  amongst  individuals,  or  masses  of  individuals.  There 
is  no  doubt  a  wide  difference  between  the  merits  of  individuals,  intrinsic  or  adventi- 
tious. Moral  integrity,  talents,  learning,  reputable  connections,  the  fruits  of  industry, 
acquired  or  inherited,  always  give  the  possessor  an  influence  over  the  opinions  and 
conduct  of  others  ;  but  those  advantages  are  sufficient  in  themselves  and  require  no 
artificial  distinctions.  Neither  justice  nor  good  policy  requires  that  authority  should 
keep  pace  with  influence,  and  be  in  like  manner  unequally  distributed.  If  the  rule 
of  equality  for  which  I  contend,  be  departed  from,  in  order  to  distribute  political  pow- 
er, in  any  degree,  according  to  wealth,  then  I  agree  with  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk 
(Mr.  Taylor)  that  the  Government  must,  to  that  extent,  be  regarded  as  a  monied  aris- 
tocracy. 

Having  thus  presented  some  of  the  considerations  which,  in  my  opinion,  justify  the 
resolution  reported  by  the  Legislative  Committee,  I  shall  now  submit  a  few  remarks 
upon  the  basis  of  representation  proposed  by  the  amendment.  So  far  as  taxation  is 
a  constituent,  it  is  a  scheme  of  property  representation;  and  one  of  the  arguments 
urged  by  its  advocates  is,  that  property  ought  to  be  represented,  inasmuch  as  it  is 
one  of  the  great  objects  of  Government.  I  beg,  Sir,  that  the  purposes  of  Government 
may  not  be  confounded  with  the  principles  upon  which  it  is  to  be  organized.  The 
protection  of  the  people  in  the  enjoyment  of  their  property  is  doubtless  an  important 
duty  of  Government.  But  the  same  duty  exists  in  relation  to  all  the  innocent  and 
legitimate  enjoyments  of  which  they  are  capable.  Those  enjoyments  are  not,  how- 
ever, the  proper  subjects  of  representation.  -In  a  representative  democracy,  which  is 
founded  upon  the  supposed  intelligence  and  virtue  of  the  people,  the  purposes  of 
Government  are  to  be  effected  by  a  representation  of  the  people  tliemselves;  and  we 
have  been  taught  to  believe,  that  under  such  a  system,  none  of  the  important  interests 
of  society  will  be  prostrated  or  neglected.  It  can  throw  no  light  upon  this  subject  to 
distinguish  between  personal  rights  and  the  rights  to  property ;  they  are  all  squally 
entitled  to  the  protection  of  Government ;  their  relative  importance  cannot  be  gradu- 
ated; nor  is  there  any  scale  by  which  we  can  determine  how  much  relative  pohtical 
power  ought  to  be  enjoyed  by  a  citizen  in  order  to  ensure  to  him  protection. 

The  advocates  of  the  proposed  amendment  avow,  that  it  is  intended  to  operate  upon 
the  relative  political  power  of  different  portions  of  the  Commonwealth ;  and  it  is  ob- 
vious that  the  only  security  which  it  can  afford  to  property  is  by  protecting  it  against 
the  partial  and  unjust  legislation,  which  may  arise  out  of  conflicting  sectional  inte- 
rests. It  can  Imve  no  effect  in  securing  proprietors  throughout  the  State  against  the 
assaults  of  the  indigent.  Power  would  be  unequally  apportioned  amongst  the  electoral 
districts,  but  in  each  district  every  elector  would  be  entitled  to  an  equal  vote.  If,  there- 
fore, a  combination  should  be  formed  amongst  the  indigent,  against  the  affluent,  pro- 
perty would  find  no  protection  in  the  basis  of  representation  proposed  by  the  amend- 
ment. If  gentlemen  are  correct  in  the  supposition  that  property  ought  to  be  repre- 
sented in  order  to  afford  it  protection,  they  ought  not  to  stop  short  of  their  principle, 
and  provide  only  a  partial  safe-guard ;  but  should  propose  giving  political  power  to  each 
proprietor  in  proportion  to  the  value  of  his  propert}'  or  the  amount  of  his  taxes.  Now, 
I  ask,  Sir,  what  would  be  thought  of  a  proposition  that  one  elector  should  have  twice, 
or  thrice,  or  ten  times  as  many  votes  as  another,  in  consideration  of  his  owning  proper- 
ty to  a  greater  extent ;  and  yet  the  principle  is  the  same,  whether  it  be  applied  to  in- 
dividuals or  masses  of  individuals. 

Several  gentlemen  have  urged  upon  us,  that  taxation  ought  to  be  regarded  in  the 
apportionment  of  representation,  because  it  furnishes  the  means  by  which  Govern- 
ment is  supported ;  and  we  have  been  told,  that  those  who  pay  the  taxes  ought  to  lay 
the  taxes.  If  by  this  assertion  is  meant,  that  all  who  pay  taxes  ought  to  be  admitted 
to  the  right  of  suffrage,  it  may  be  true  as  a  general  proposition,  and  will  receive  the 
consideration  of  this  Committee  when  another  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Commit- 
tee shall  occupy  our  attention.  If  the  idea  intended  to  be  expressed  is.  that  none  but 
those  who  pay  the  taxes  ought  to  have  a  voice  in  laying  them,  then  the  rule  would 
amount  to  nothing  more  than  an  exclusive  property  qualification.  But  if  we  are  call- 
ed upon  to  believe  that  political  power  ought  to  be  unequally  distributed  amoncrst  the 
qualified  voters,  from  a  regard  to  the  sums  of  money  which  they  respectively  contri- 
bute to  the  support  of  Government,  it  remains  to  be  proved  wiiy  contributions  of  that 
character  confer  a  better  claim  to  political  power  than  those  of  any  other  description. 
There  is  no  good  reason  wliy  the  aid  which  a  citizen  furnishes  in  the  support  of  Gov- 
ernment, in  the  form  of  taxes,  should  be  placed  on  higher  ground  than  that  which  he 
yields  in  personal  services.  He  who  devotes  the  energies  of  his  body  and  mind  to  the 
welfare  of  his  country,  labours  to  promote  her  best  interests,  or  defends  her  rights  up- 
on the  battle  field,  ma}^  surelj?-  claim  the  meric  of  having  contributed  to  the  support  of 
Government.  He  is  not  entitled  to  political  pov\'er  merely  in  consideration  of  such 
services,  but  his  right  is  not  inferior  to  that  of  him  whose  aid  is  furnished  from  his 


102 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


purse.  There  is  not^  as  some  advocates  of  the  amendment  seem  to  suppose,  any  pe- 
cuHar  relation  between  taxation  on  the  one  hand,  and  representation  on  the  other,  as 
is  evident  from  the  principles  which  govj&rn  their  respective  application.  All  are 
bound  to  contribute" to  the  support  of  Government  according  to  their  means'^  all  are 
entitled  to  the  right  of  suffrage  who  have  sufficient  evidence  of  permanent  common 
interest  in,  and  attachment  to,  the  community.  - 

I  am  at  a  loss  to  perceive,  Sir,  how  this  subject  can  be  elucidated,  by  the  refer- 
ence which  gentlemen  have  made  to  the  controversy  with  Great  Britain,  which  re- 
sulted in  our  Independence.  The  British  Parliament  asserted  the  right  of  taxing  us 
without  our  consent,  although  we  were  in  no  wise  represented  in  that  body ;  our  re- 
presentatives being  here  in  our  Colonial  Legislatures.  We  resisted  that  despotic  en- 
terprize  of  a  foreign  Government,  as  we  would  have  resisted  any  other  invasion  of 
our  civil  liberties,  and  engaged  in  the  perilous  and  unequal  conflict,  not  to  obtain  re- 
presentation in  Parliament,  which  we  would  not  have  been  willing  to  accept,  whe- 
ther according  to  taxation  or  numbers,  but  because  we  would  not  submit  to  laws 
affecting  our  rights,  to  which  we  had  not  consented,  either  by  ourselves  or  our  repre- 
sentatives. 

As  this  amendment  is  justified,  in  the  opinion  of  its  advocates,  by  the  conflicting 
sectional  interests  supposed  to  exist  in  Virginia,  in  consequence  of  which  the  greater 
wealth  of  the  minority  might,  without  some  such  security,  fall  a  sacrifice  to  the  ra- 
pacity of  the  majority,  I  would  ask  gentlemen  to  reflect  whether  there  is  in  point  of 
fact,  any  permanent  contrariety  of  interests  of  that  alarming  character.  We  are 
forming  a  Constitution  which  is  to  last  for  ages,  and  we  should  be  careful  not  to  mis- 
take temporary  and  fluctuating  varieties  of  interests,  for  those  of  a  permanent  and 
irreconcileable  nature ;  and  the  changes  in  the  relative  wealth  and  population  of  dif-, 
ferent  parts  of  the.  State,  which  have  already  occurred,  and  are  still  in  progress,  ought 
to  be  sufficient  to  remove  ail  fears  on  this  subject. 

The  only  efi^ect  of  the  proposed  amendment  would  be,  to  give  permanency  to  any 
hostile  sectional  feelings  which  may  now  exist  in  this  Commonwealth,  and  by  exas- 
perating those  feelings,  perhaps  bring  about  that  very  insecurity  of  property  which  it 
is  the  object  of  its  .advocates  to  guard  against.  Representation  in  any  degree,  ac- 
cording to  taxation,  would  not  prevent  schemes  of  internal  improvement  •  by  which, 
portions  of  the  State  may  be  made  to  aid  in  defraying  the  expenses  of  improvements 
in  which  they  might  not  consider  themselves  immediately  interested.  If  enlarged 
views  of  justice  and  sound  policy  should  not  satisfy  the  dominant  party,  however 
constituted,  that  the  interests  of  the  whole  State  will  be  promoted  by  useful  internal, 
improvements,  wherever  required,  you  may  rest  assured  that  the  sanje  result  will  be 
produced  by  combinations  of  Various  sectional  interests.  And  we  are  not  to  expect 
that  the  east  and  the  west  will  be  always  arrayed  against  each  other  upon  such  ques- 
tions. The  improvement  of  James  River  may,  for  example,  be  united  with  a  project 
to  connect  it  with  the  western  waters  ;  and  in  like  manner  a  concert  may  be  brought 
about  between  those  interested  in  the  navigaiion  of  the  Potomac,  and  that  of  the 
Shenandoah. 

All  the  arguments  which  have  been  urged  to  prove  that  Virginia  is  divided  by  hos- 
tile and  irreconcileable  sectional  interests,  only  tend  to  establish  that  she  ought  not 
to  continue  united  under  the  same  Government,  a  conclusion  abhorrent  to  the  feel- 
ings of  every  patriot,  and  however  ingenioiis  and  eloquent  gentlemen  may  speculate- 
upon  the  subject,  not  justified  by  any  facts  which  have  occurred  in  the  whole  course 
of  our  history.  And  afler  all  that  has  been  said  to  destroy  our  confidence  in  the  jus- 
tice of  the  majority,  it  is  the  only  rational  security  which  we  can  have  for  the  peace, 
and  happiness,  and  prosperity  of  the  community.  Our  Republican  Institutions  rest 
for  their  support  upon  the  virtue  and  intelligence  of  the  people  ;  and  if  they  should 
not  be  sufficient  to  ensure  a  faithful  and  wise  administration  of  the  Government,  the 
best  hopes  of  human  liberty  and  happiness  which  we  have  cherished  must  be  disap- 
pointed, and  we  shall  be  compelled  to  abandon  the  scheme  of  self-government,  and 
yield  up  the  many  to  the  protection  of  the  few. 

Mr.  Baldwin  concluded,  by  apologizing  for  the  imperfect  manner  in  which  he 
feared  he  had  discharged  the  duty  he  had  undertaken,  and  for  the  omission  of  sever 
ral  views  of  the  subject,  which  he  had  intended  submitting  to  the  consideration  of 
the  Committee. 

Mr.  Cooke  of  Frederick,  availed  himself  of  the  pause  which  ensued,  after  the  close 
of  the  above  speech,  to  correct  a  misapprehension  into  which  Mr.  Upshur  had  fallen, 
in  supposing  him  to  have  admitted,  that  in  the  whole  period,  during  which  the  exist- 
ing Constitution  had  been  in  operation,  no  instances  of  misrule  had  ever  occurred  in 
any  department  of  the  Government  :  he  had  gone  no  farther  than  to  admit,  that  while 
the  Gentlemen  in  the  eastern  part  of  the  State,  having  the  majority  in  the  Legislature, 
had  it  thereby  in  their  power  to  lay  oppressive  taxes  on  the  cattle  of  the  west,  they 
had  never  exercised  their  power  in  that  respect.  As  to,  instances  of  misrule,  he  had 
not  said  any  thing,  as  he  would  gladly  avow  such  a  question.    He  went  into  a  farther 


DEBATES   OF   THE   CONVENTION.       ^    .  vlQS 


correction  of  the  same  gentleman,  in  relation  to  what  Mr.  Cooke  had  said,  as  to  the 
balance  between  the  popnlaiion  on  the  two  sides  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  and  the  relative 
number  of  slaves  in  the  lower  country,  and  in  the  Valley,  and  he  made  a  statistical 
calculation  to  shew,  that  the  fears  entertaiued  by  the  slave-holding  part  of  the  State 
were  groundless, 

Mr.  Upshur  replied,  and  regretted  that  the  gentleman  had  thought  it  necessary  to 
withdraw  any  part  of  a  compliment,  which,  as  coming  from  him,  was  highly  appreci- 
ated by  gentlemen  from  the  east  of  the  State.  Still  the  argument  remained  the  same ; 
for,  if  when  they  had  the  power,  they  had  not  oppressed  the  west  by  taxation,  he  was 
•at  a  loss  to  conceive,  in  what  other  way  they  were  under  any  temptation  to  oppress 
them.  Mr.  Upshur  still  insisted  on  tlie  ground  he  had  before  taken,  as  to  the  balance 
of  slave  population ;  and  denied  that  any  counties  were  to  be  reckoned  to  the  slave- 
holding  interest,  but  those  in  which  that  sort  of  population  formed  the  preponderating 
interest. 

Mr.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  asked  whether  it  would  be  trespassing  too  far  on  the  gentle- 
man from  Frederick  (Mr.  Cooke)  if  he  asked  him  to  state  some  of  the  prominent  acta 
of  misrule,  which  had  taken  place  in  the  Legislature  of  Virginia,  during  the  time  the 
power  of  the  majority  in  that  body,  had  been  in  the  hands  of  gentlemen  residing  in 
the  eastern  portion  of  the  State  ?  It  had  been  a  part  of  the  fortune  of  his  own  very  la- 
borious life,  to  examine  almost  every  act  of  that  Legislature,  since  the  Revolution. 
On  the  subject  of  misrule,  he  confessed  himself  a  beggar_for  information,  hungry  and 
destitute.  He  did  not  ask  the  gentleman  to  go  into  particulars,  but  merely  to  state  some 
of  the  prominent  cases.  Mr.  Leigh  would  not  say,  that  during  that  time  no  impolitic 
measures  had  been  adopted,  nor  would  he  say  the  Government  had  always  pursued  the 
wisest  and  the  best  course  ;  but,  he  wished  to  have  pointed  out  to  him  any  very  impo- 
litic measure,  justly  chargeable  upon  the  structure  of  the  existing  Constitution,  and 
to  which  tire  people  of  the  west  had  not  been  as  much  parties  as  the  people  of  the  east; 
any  wrong  done  either  to  individuals,  or  to  classes  of  the  community,  springing  out  of 
the  principles  of  the  Constitution. 

Mr.  Cooke  replied,  that  he  had  not  asserted  the  existence  of  misrule,  and,  therefore, 
he  was  not  called  upon  to  prove  what  he  had  not  asserted*  Yet  he  would  not  ad- 
mit, that  he  might  not  truly  have  made  such  an  assertion.  To  make  his  meaning 
more  distinct,  he  would  now  say  that  he  did  assert  the  existence  of  such  misrule.  Yet 
he  should  reserve  to  himself  the  right  of  taking  what  course  he  chose  upon  that  floor ; 
nor  could  he  consent  to  have  such  course  chalked  out,  and  dictated  to  him  by  the 
member  from  Chesterfield.,  He  said  he  might,  perhaps,  give  at  some  other  time  the 
reasons  on  which  his  assertion  rested  ;  but  at  present  there  were  many  gentlemen  who 
wished  to  speak  to  the  question  ;  and  he  did  not  choose  to  have  the  time  of  the 
Convention  taken  up  by  a  discussion  thus  forced  upon  him  by  the  gentleman  from 
Chesterfield. 

Mr.  Leigh  rejoined  :  he  thought  there  had  been  nothing  either  unparliamentary  or 
indecent  in  the  request  he  had  preferred  to  the  gentleman  from  Frederick.  The  gen- 
tleman would  certainly  wait  his  own  good  time.  But,  in  the  mean  while,  he  begged 
leave  to  join  issue  with  him,  and  to  pledge  himself  to  meet  the  charge,  come  it  on 
what  ground  it  might :  the  history  of  the  Legislature  of  the  State  would  repel  it. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Powell  of  Frederick,  the  Committee  then  rose,  and  thereupon 
the  House  adjourned. 


FRIDAY,  October  30,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Sykes,  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

Tlie  Convention  resolved  itself  into  a  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  Stanard  in 
the  Chair. 

Mr.  Powell  rose  to  address  the  Commmittee,  in  opposition  to  Mr.  Green's  amend- 
ment, and  spoke  in  nearly  the  following  terms  : 

Mr.  Chairman  :  At  no  period,  upon  no  occasion  of  my  life,  have  I  felt  so  much  em- 
barrassment as  I  do  at  this  moment.  I  fear  I  have  neither  physical  nor  moral  strength 
to  sustain  the  weight.  It  is  not  wonderful  that  I  should  be  embarrassed,  when  I  look 
through  this  assembly,  containing  the  assembled  wisdom  of  the  State  ;  when  I  see 
before  me,  men  grown  grey  in  the  pursuit  of  political  service,  and  who  have  spent 
their  lives  in  the  application  of  their  science,  to  promote  the  happiness  and  prosperity 
of  their  fellow  men  :  men,  who  will  hereafter  be  consecrated  for  their  profound  wis- 
dom and  tried  patriotism.  It  would  ill  become  so  humble  an  individual  to  be  other- 
wise than  embarrassed.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  nothing  to  offer  to  this  Committee, 
but  a  plain,  unvarnished  statement  of  the  grounds  and  arguments,  which  have  brought 


104 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


me  to  my  conclusions.  I  cannot  invoke  the  rich  stores  of  fancy  or  call  the  decora- 
tions of  eloquence  to  my  aid. 

We  have,  Mr.  Chairman,  been  deputed  here,  and  clothed  with  ample  powers  by  the 
people  of  Virginia,  to  form  for  them  a  compact  of  Government  for  the  protection  of 
their  lives,  their  liberty,  and  f  )r  the  security  of  their  property.  In  the  discharge  of 
this  duty,  I  know  of  but  one  moral  or  divine  law  which  we  are  bound  to  respect  and 
obey :  this  is,  that  we  shall  observe  the  immutable  principles  of  justice  in  framing  the 
instrument.  There  are  certain  political  maxims,  hallowed  by  time  and  sanctioned  by 
the  wisdom  of  the  sages  and  patriots  of  former  days,  and  embodied  in  our  Bill  of 
Rights,  to  which  I  shall  have  occasion  to  refer  hereafter,  that  certainly  have  no  bind- 
ing or  obligatory  force  upon  us,  either  natural  or  divine,  but  which  certainly  are  en- 
titled to  great  respect  and  influence,  where  they  are  applicable.  Our  duty,  as  I  have 
said,  is  to  form  a  compact  of  Government ;  in  doing  this,  certainly,  every  member  has 
an  unquestioned  right  to  offer  his  propositions,  and  insist  on  their  admission  into  the 
compact.  In  doing  so,  the  member  is  the  only  proper  judge  of  the  justice  and  expe- 
diency of  his  proposition,  and  is  not  bound  to  yield  his  own  opinion  to  the  influence 
of  any  political  maxim ;  except  where  such  maxim  has  intrinsic  worth  to  recommend 
it.  We  have,  then,  a  moral  rule  to  govern  us,  which,  we  are  not  at  liberty  to  violate, 
and  we  have  political  maxims  to  guide  us,  so  far  as  we  regard  these  maxims  as  appli- 
cable to  existing  circumstances.  There  are  also  motives  and  rules  of  action,  personal 
to  ourselves,  that  ought  tobe  adverted  to.  We  were  not  sent  here,  to  gain  in  this  com- 
pact, to  seek  to  obtain  advantages  for  those  we  represent,  local  or  sectional  advanta- 
ges ;  for  myself,  I  would  have  indignantly  rejected  the  honorable  trust  conferred  upon 
me,  if  it  had  been  expected  of  me  to  struggle  for  local  interests,  at  the  sacrifices  of 
the  interests  of  the  whole  community.  I  regard  myself  here,  as  the  representative, 
as  much  of  the  one  as  of  the  other  sections  of  the  Commonwealth,  j  regard  it  as 
my  duty  to  look  to  the  interests  of  the  whole  community,  and  to  provide  fundamen- 
tal laws  for  the  community  at  large. 

With  these  preliminary  views,  I  shall  proceed  to  the  consideration  of  the  questions 
now  before  the  Committee.  It  will  be  conceded,  I  presume,  by  every  member  of  the 
Committee,  that  in  the  formation  of  a  compact  of  Government,  the  great  and  leading' 
object  ought  to  be,  to  conform  the  Government  to  the  character  of  the  people  over 
whom  it  is  to  operate.  It  will  also  be  conceded,  that  a  Representative  Republic, 
founded  upon  elementary  principles,  essentially  belonging  to  such  a  form  of  Govern- 
ment, is  the  best  and  happiest  system  for  obtaining  the  end  of  all  Government  that 
can  be  devised,  when  the  people  have  the  essential  qualities  to  suit  them  to  such  a 
form  of  Government.  Those  essential  qualities  ai-e  virtue  and  intelligence  in  tlie  peo- 
ple. If  they  have  those  qualities,  justice  demands  that  they  should  receive  this  high- 
est and  best  gift  of  Divine  Providence,  at  the  hands  of  those  to  whom  is  confided  the 
power  of  framing  their  Government.  If,  on  the  contrary,  they  are  deficient  in  those 
great  essentials,  such  a  Government  would  be  to  them  a  curse  instead  of  a  blessing. 
All  history  and  experience  prove  the  truth  of  this  proposition.  No  wise  politician 
would  for  a  moment  contend,  that  Turkey  or  Russia  could  live  under  such  a  form 
of  Government.  Visionary  and  dreaming  politicians  made  the  experiment  in  France  : 
the  result  was  a  scene  of  carnage  and  hon-or,  at  which  the  mind  revolts.  But,  in  the 
same  ratio  as  it  would  be  unjust  and  impolitic  in  these  countries,  to  attempt  to  estab- 
lish a  Republican  Government,  it  would  be  unjust  to  refuse  a  Government  of  that 
description,  to  those  who  have  those  essential  pillars,  on  which  alone  it  can  rest. 

Our  first  duty,  therefore,  is  to  look  to  the  character  of  the  people  of  Virginia,  for 
whom  it  is  our  duty  to  form  a  Constitution.  If  we  find  them  virtuous  and  intelligent, 
it  would  be  unpardonable  in  us,  not  to  frame  for  them  a  Constitution,  founded  upon 
the  pure  and  essential  elements  of  Republicanism.  It  would  be  without  excuse,  if,  in 
departing  from  those  principles,  we  infused  into  the  instrument,  ohgarchical,  aristo- 
cratical,  and  monarchical  principles,  abridging,  in  any  degree,  their  power  of  self- 
government.  What,  then,  is  the  character  of  the  people  of  Virginia Have  they 
virtue;  have  they  intelligence,  fitting  them  for  such  a  system  of  Government.^  If 
they  have  not,  it  may  be  safely  afiirmed,  that  there  is  not,  upon  the  face  of  the  globe, 
a  people  of  whom  we  have  knowledge,  that  possesses  these  requisites;  and  we  have 
only  to  deplore  the  verification  of  the  predictions  of  all  the  enemies  of  civil  liberty, 
who  denounce  the  Republics  in  this  country,  as  an  idle  and  visionary  experiment ; 
and  the  friends  of  liberal  principles,  may  sit  down  and  lament  over  the  prostration  of 
their  best  and  fairest  hopes.  But  I  confidently  maintain,  that  the  people  of  Virginia, 
is  a  community,  who  love  virtue  and  intelligence.  To  sustain  this  proposition,  I  ap- 
peal to  every  member  of  this  Convention,  and  ask  him  to  look  at  the  people  with 
whom  he  lives  in  the  district  he  himself  represents,  and  to  say  whether  they  are  not 
a  virtuous,  an  honest,  and  an  intelligent  people  ?  For  myself,  I  could  say,  that  the 
people  of  the  district  with  whom  I  five,  possess  this  character.  No  one  will  deny 
that  the  people  of  Virginia,  were  a  virtuous  and  magnanimous  people  in  1776  ;  that 
tliey  gave  the  most  striking  and  conclusive  evidence  of  the  most  sterhng  virtue. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


105 


With  a  vindictive  and  ruthless  enemy  at  their  very  doors ;  with  every  thing  to  appal 
and  to  alarm  ;  in  truth,  with  lialters  round  their  necks  ;  the  alternative  was  presented  to 
them,  of  abandoning  their  virtue,  their  principles,  and  their  countr}',  and  thereby  se- 
curing their  own  safety,  or  nobly  traversing  the  dangers  that  encompass  them :  are 
the  people  of  Virginia  the  degenerate  sons  of  such  fathers  ?  I  think  not.  A  similar 
occasion  would  produce  similar  evidences  of  virtue  at  the  present  day.  The  demora- 
lizing principle,  has  not  here  had  the  inviting  channels  which  have  been  opened  to  it 
in  some  other  States  of  the  Union.  We  have  no  large  cities  in  Virginia,  to  present 
an  inviting  refuge  for  the  vicious,  the  profligate,  and  the  convicts  of  foreign  countries, 
and  in  that  way,  to  introduce  them  into  the  heart  of  the  community,  spreading  their 
baneful  influence  in  all  directions. 

But  a  conclusive  evidence  of  the  virtue  of  the  people  of  Virginia  is  to  be  found 
in  the  body  here  assembled.  I  look  around  me,  and  of  what  materials  do  I  find 
it  composed Does  it  not  include  men  most  distinguished  for  their  wisdom  and 
for  their  virtue,  their  patriotism,  and  public  services Were  not  these  the  qua- 
lifications which  recommended  them  to  the  people  of  Virginia?  Would  the  people, 
if  themselves  vicious,  or  demoralized,  have  selected  them  for  such  recommendations  ? 
What,  I  ask,  is  this  Does  the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  which  we  are 
now  considering,  recommend  an  essential,  elementary  principle,  as  the  basis  of  a  pure 
Republican  Government,  suited  to  a  virtuous  and  enlightened  people  ?  If  it  does,  and 
the  principles  which  I  have  attempted  to  maintain,  be  correct ;  justice,  wisdom,  and  poli- 
cy demand  that  that  report  should  receive  our  sanction.  The  principle  there  recommen- 
ded, is,  that  representation  in  the  Legislative  Department  of  Government,  should  be 
based  upon  white  population,  exclusively.  I  have  said,  that  there  were  great  political 
maxims  emanating  from  the  wisest  and  most  patriotic  statesmen,  and  sanctioned  by  all 
the  elementary  writers  upon  the  subject  of  Government;  acted  upon  too,  and  approved 
by  the  people  of  this  Commonwealth  for  fifty-four  years,  and  embodied  in  our  Bill  of 
Rights;  and  that  we  ought  to  regard  them,  not  as  binding  authority,  but  as  lights  to 
guide  us  to  correct  conclusions.  One  of  these  maxims  is  found  in  the  second  section  of 
that  instrument,  which,  among  others,  is  declared,  in  the  preamble  of  that  section,  to 
pertain  to  the  people  of  this  Commonwealth  and  their  posterity,  as  the  basis  and  foun- 
dation of  Government.  That  maxim  is,  "  that  all  power  is  vested  in,  and  conse- 
quently derived  from,  the  people ;  that  magistrates  are  their  trustees  and  servants,  and 
at  all  times  amenable  to  them."  To  see  the  application  of  this  maxim,  we  must  first 
ascertain  in  what  sense  the  word  people  "  is  there  used.  It  is  unquestionably  inten- 
ded to  embrace  all  those  v/ithin  the  pale  of  the  community  :  in  other  words,  all  those 
who  are  participants  in  the  enjoyment  of  political  power.  It  follows,  therefore,  when 
the  community  is  ascertained,  that  all  political  power  is  vested  in  that  community.  By 
the  third  article  in  the  Bill  of  Rights  it  is  provided  that  a  majority  hath  an  indubita- 
ble, unalienable,  and  indefeasible  right,  to  reform,  alter  or  abohsh  the  fundamental 
laws  as  shall  be  judged,  &c. 

Thus  it  is  perceived  that,  by  the  Bill  of  Rights,  and  without  the  BiU  of  Rights  it 
would  be  equally  true  and  undeniable,  two  great  principles  of  Government  are  es- 
tablished. 

1st.  That  all  power  is  vested  in  the  people. 

2nd.  That  a  majority  of  the  people  must  control  the  minority,  and  regulate  the  ex- 
ercise of  that  power. 

Apply  these  two  principles  to  the  resolution  of  the  Committee,  and  they  sustain  the 
proposition  therein  contained. 

The  truth  of  these  two  propositions  must  be  denied,  or  the  resolution  must  be  sanc- 
tioned :  does  this  require  argument  to  prove  it  ?  The  argument  is  brief.  If  all  pow- 
er is  "  vested  in  the  people,  and  a  majority  is  "  to  govern,  in  the  exercise  of  that  pow- 
er, it  follows  of  course,  that  such  majority  can  only  be  ascertained  by  a  general  vote  of 
the  people,  or  by  their  agents  representing  equal  portions  of  the  people. 

I  have  thus,  according  to  my  intention,  endeavored  to  shew: 

1.  That  Government  must  be  conformed  to  the  characters  of  the  people. 

2.  That  Republican  Government  is  the  happiest  form  of  Government,  that  human 
wisdom  can  divine,  for  a  virtuous  and  intelligent  people. 

3.  That  the  people  of  Virginia,^  have  the  necessary  virtue  and  intelhgence. 

4.  That  the  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  recommends  a  principle  essen- 
tially and  necessarily  forming  an  element,  of  a  pure  Republican  Government. 

I  will  now,  Mr.  Chairman,  proceed  to  the  consideration  of  the  amendment  proposed 
by  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper.  He  proposes  to  strike  out  the  basis  of  white  popu- 
lation exclusively,  as  recommended  by  the  Committee,  and  to  insert  a  totally  different 
basis  ;  a  basis  to  be  composed  of  population  and  taxation  combined  : — As  to  the  object 
of  this  proposition  of  amendment,  there  can  be  but  one  opinion;  it  is  intended,  dis- 
tinctly, to  give  representation  (to  a  certain  extent)  to  wealth,  and  not  to  nmiibers. 
What,  is  the  avowed  operation  and  effect  of  the  amendment,  as  admitted  by  its  friends 
and  advocates  ?  It  will  be  to  give  representation  to  slaves,  and  political  power  to  their 
masters  in  the  Legislative  Department  of  the  Government ;  and  this,  not  because  they 

14 


106 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


are  rational  beings,  having  fi-ee  will,  and  the  power  of  exercising  such  free  will,  but 
as  property  exclusively  in  the  hands  of  their  owners,  by  reason  whereof,  they  are  to 
have  and  exercise  political  power.  To  illustrate  :  If  an  individual  has  one  hundred 
slaves,  upon  which  he  pays  taxes,  he  is  to  have  political  power  in  proportion  to  his 
number  of  slaves.  Tliis  doctrine  is  new  in  the  political  institutions  of  this  State  :  it  is 
moreover,  not  only  a  departure  from  what  has  hitherto  been  regarded  as  republican, 
but  is  in  direct  conflict  with  the  political  maxims,  by  which  the  statesmen  and  patri- 
ots of  Virginia  have  heretofore  been  guided  and  governed.  Let  us  look,  for  a  mo- 
ment, to  some  of  the  inost  leading  and  fundamental  of  these  maxims  :  In  the  Bill  of 
Rights  it  is  asserted,  that  all  power  is  derived  from  the  people,  and  of  right  belongs  to 
them.  The  proposed  amendment  affirms,  that  all  power  is  not  derived  from  the  peo- 
ple, and  vested  in  them,  but  that  a  portion  of  political  power  belongs  to,  and  is  vested 
in,  'property,  and  that  not  property  in  general,  according  to  the  argument,  but  in  a  parti- 
cular species  of  property.  There  is  another  political  maxim  found  in  the  same  instru- 
ment, which  asserts,  that  the  majority  of  the  people  have  an  indubitable,  unalienable, 
and  indefeasible  right,  to  reform,  alter  or  abolish  their  fundamental  laws.  The  amend- 
ment affirms,  that  this  right  does  not  belong  to  a  majority,  but  that  this  great  and  ab- 
sorbing right,  belongs  to  a  vunority  of  the  people  and  majority  of  toealth  :  both  these 
propositions  cannot  be  true.  The  one  or  the  other  must  be  false.  Are  gentlemen  pre- 
pared to  pronounce  these  maxims  false They  certainly  have  high,  and  I  would  al- 
most venture  to  say,  controlling  sanction,  when  applied  to  people  capable  of  self-gov- 
ernment :  they  emanated  from  the  wisest  and  purest  statesmen,  in  the  best  of  times. 
They  are  liallowed  by  time  and  experience,  and  are  interwoven  with  the  habits  and 
affections  of  the  people  of  Virginia.  Will  the  Committee  at  this  stage  of  my  argu- 
ment, indulge  me  in  a  simple  and  practical  illustration  of  the  truth  of  these  political 
maxims.  I  beg  leave  to  use  my  illustration,  not  only  to  shew,  to  some  extent,  the 
reasons  upon  which  these  truths  are  founded  ;  but  also,  as  an  answer  to  an  argument 
of  the  gentleman  from  Orange,  in  which  he  insists  upon  the  quid  j^'i'o  quo^  in  tlie  com- 
pact we  are  engaged  in  makmg. 

I  will  suppose  that  a  community  of  fifty  individuals  have  assembled  together  for 
the  purpose  of  forming  for  themselves  a  system  of  Government.  Of  these  individu- 
als, forty  are  worth  100  dollars  each  :  the  residue  ten,  worth  2000  dollars  each.  They 
agree  as  to  the  object  of  the  compact.  It  is  to  jjrotect  their  lives,  and  their  liberty,  and 
to  secure  their  property.  The  next  object  is  the  details  of  this  compact.  1  will  take 
the  joint-stock  principle  of  the  gentleman  from  Northampton.  Ten  wealthy  individu- 
als bring  into  contribution,  their  lives,  their  liberties,  and  their  two  thousand  dollars 
each.  The  poorer  and  most  numerous  class  bring  also  their  lives,  their  liberties,  and 
their  one  hundred  dollars  each,  which  constitutes  their  all,  into  the  joint-stock.  The 
rich  say,  "  we  have  two  thousand  dollars  each  :  you  have  but  one  hundred  dollars 
each.  We  have,  consequently,  twenty  times  as  much  property  to  protect  by  the  pro- 
visions of  this  compact  as  you  have.  We,  therefore,  insist  upon  having,  in  all  mat- 
ters about  which  we  are  to  legislate,  ten  votes  for  your  one.  This  provision  is  neces- 
sary for  the  protection  of  our  property,  against  your  cupidity.  Otherwise,  having  the 
majority  of  numbers,  you  might  legislate  our  two  thousand  dollars  out  of  our  pockets 
into  yours."  What  would  be  the  obvious  answer  to  such  a  demand  ?  "  It  is  true  you 
have  the  most  property ;  but  our  lives  and  our  liberties  are  as  dear  to  us,  as  your  lives 
and  your  liberties  can  be  to  you.  As  to  property,  we  bring  into  common-stock  our 
all,  you  do  no  more.  Our  all  is  as  dear  to  tis,  though  not  so  great,  as  yours  can  pos- 
sibly be  to  you.  The  compact  can  be  only  durable,  as  founded  upon  the  mutual  con- 
fidence of  the  contracting  parties.  Besides,  if  yoii  shall  have,  by  virtue  of  your  pro- 
perty, the  political  power  which  you  claim,  you  may  exercise  that  power  upon  our 
lives  and  liberties,  as  well  as  upon  our  property.  If,  by  virtue  of  our  numbers,  we  are 
to  be  feared,  as  to  matters  of  property,  why  may  we  not  eqiially  fear  for  our  liberties, 
if  we  give  to  you,  who  are  the  minority,  the  power  to  govern  us  ;  especially  as  you 
have  the  wealth,  which  is  power  in  itself?"  At  this  moment,  when  the  Convention 
is  aljout  to  be  broken  up  upon  this  matter,  as  to  the  distribution  of  power,  a  neighbor- 
ing horde  of  marauders  and  plunderers  are  seen  hovering  round  our  suppotfed  commu- 
nity, with  the  evident  intent  of  conquering  and  plundering  them.  What  would  the 
wealthy  minority  think  and  say  ?  We  have  not  strength  to  defend  ourselves  with- 
out your  aid.  Not  only  our  property,  but  our  hves  and  liberties  will  fall  a  prey  to  our 
enemies.  It  is  our  wealth  especially  which  has  allured  them  ;  we  shall  be  the  peculiar 
objects  of  their  vengeance.  We  close  with  your  terms :  with  your  aid,  our  defence 
and  protection  is  certain."  The  invading  foe  is  repelled,  at  the  risk,  perhaps  at  the 
expense,  of  the  blood  of  the  majority.  I  would  ask  the  gentleman  from  Orange,  whe- 
ther there  would  not  be  liere  a  quid  pro  quo.  Sir,  I  hope  the  day  is  far  distant,  when 
this  Commonwealth  will  be  exposed  to  war  or  invasion ;  but  it  is  certainly  wise  to 
look  forward  and  to  make  provision  for  such  an  event.  When  that  day  shall  arrive, 
depend  upon  it,  the  wealthy  few  will  find  their  remuneration  for  the  loss  of  political 
power,  which  they  now  deprecate,  in  the  dauntless  bravery  and  ardent  patriotism  of 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVEXTIOX. 


107 


the  free  white  population  of  Virginia,,  in  defending  them  from  the  only  danger  they 
have  a  right  to  apprehend  to  their  property. 

I  hare  always  thought,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  in  a  repubhcan  form  of  Government, 
so  far  from  giving  to  wealth  political  power,  the  liberty  of  the  citizen  required  that 
safe-guards  should  be  provided,  to  prevent  wealth  from  drawing  to  itself  too  great  a 
portion  of  power.  ISIore  than  one  successftd  conquerer  has  said,  give  me  money, 
and  X  will  conquer  the  world." 

But  it  is  said,  that  Government  is  intended  to  protect  property:  this  is  certauily 
true.  But  where  is  this  protection  to  be  found  ?  Is  it  to  be  fbimd  in  parchment 
stiptdations  in  the  compact  of  Government  ?  By  giving  to  propertv.  preponderating 
pohtical  power  By  declaring  that  the  minority  of  the  people  shall  o-overn  the  ma- 
jority, because  of  their  wealth  .-  By  placing  wealth  in  a  hostile  attitude  to  physical 
strength  .=  Certainly  not.  Tliis  would  truly  be  a  paper  guarantee,"  which  the 
eloquent  gentleman  described  and  rejected  the  other  day,  as  visionary  and  de- 
lusive-; and  all  his  Eirguments,  as  to  its  inefiicacy  and  futility,  apply  here  with  full 
force. 

Sir,  the  only  effectual  guarantee,  against  the  abuse  of  power  in  a  repubhe,  is  to  be 
found,  and  to  be  found  only,  in  the  xirtue  and  intelligence  of  the  people,  in  whom  all 
power  rests.  Wliile  virtuous  and  inteihgent.  they  will  do  no  act  of  injustice  or  ra- 
pine. And  when  they  becouae  vicious,  and  fit  for  violence  and  spoil,  it  is  in  vain  to 
attempt  to  restrain  them  by  compact  stipulations.  "When  vice  prevails,  the  republican 
form  of  Government  cannot  exist :  it  has,  in  itself,  the  elements  of  its  dissolution. 
Some  other  form  of  Government  must  be  resorted  to  :  under  which,  indeed,  tlie  ma- 
ny may  be  restrained  from  plundering  the  few,  but  where  the  many  will  be  plundered 
by  the  few.  " 

Mr.  Chairman,  one  leading  objection  to  the  amendment,  wliich  operates  powerfully 
on  my  mind,  is,  that  we  have  been  deputed  here,  under  a  hope,  entertained  by  the  ma- 
jority of  the  people  of  Virginia,  that  the  very  principle  reconnnended  by  the  Com- 
mittee, may  be  incorporated  in  the  Constitution.  If  this  hope  is  disappointed,  you  will 
have  a  lasting  cause  of  discontent.  Sir,  they  will  not  be  satisfied.  The  Constitution 
you  offer  them  will  be  rejected.  I  do  not,  indeed,  beheve,  nay,  I  am  confident,  that 
the  people  of  Virginia  would  not.  in  such  an  event,  so  far  as  I  know  them,  rise  in 
their  majesty,  and  demand  the  object  of  their  wishes.  I  do  not  beheve  that  there 
would  be  anv  disorderly  or  revolutionary  manifestations  of  their  displeasure.  God 
forbid  there  should. 

If  I  am  mistaken,  I  pledge  myself  vriih  my  best  powers,  to  prevent  or  delay  any 
such  feelinofs.  But.  I  am  satisfied,  they  woitld  unceasingly,  year  after  year,  crowd 
the  table  of^this  Hall  with  their  memorials  and  petitions,  complahiing  of  their  wrongs 
and  demanding  redress,  until  the  call  of  another  Convention  would  be  extorted,  un- 
der a  state  of  fearful  excitement.    Every  gentleman  would  deprecate  such  a  result. 

Ouffht  we,  then,  to  infuse  into  the  compact,  any  principle  calculated  to  lead  to 
such  consequences,  unless  demanded  by  considerations  in  themselves  irresistible. 

Let  us.  then,  attentively  examine  the  groimds  on  which  the  principle  is  supported. 

It  is  said,  that  the  slave-holding  portion  of  the  commtmity  fear,  that  unless  this 
amendment  is  adopted,,  their  rights  and  interests  in  their  slaves  will  be  endangered, 
or  abused  :  that  the  pohtical  power  of  the  State,  will,  in  the  hands  of  the  non-slave-hold-- 
ing  portion  of  the  community,  be  used  to  their  oppression.  These  fears  are  either  weU,  or 
ill  founded.  I  think  I  have  shewn,  by  the  aid  of  the  gentleman  from  rsorthampton,  that 
if  those  fears  are  well  founded .  that  no  security  is  to  be  foimd  in  any  paper  stipulation 
on  the  subject,  or  by  the  adoption  of  the  amendment  :  because  these  fears  presup- 
pose that  the  people  are  vicious,  corrupt,  and  dishonest :  and  if  such  be  the  fact,  no 
possible  security  can  be  formed,  recognizing  the  riglit  of  self-government  in  the  peo- 
ple. But,  Sir,  depend  upon  it,  there^is  no  ground  of  such  fears,  from  any  calcula- 
tions I  have  been  able  to  make.  But.  is  there  not  a  perfect  security  to  the  rights 
of  the  slave-holders,  if  it  be  a  fact,  that  thev  will  still  retain  the  pohtical  power  of  the 
State,  even  upon  the  basis  recoromended  bv  the  Committee  ?  3Iy  friend  and  colleague 
in  his  argimients  to  this  Committee,  proved,  beyond  question,  by  statistical  calculations 
and  facts,  that  the  adoption  of  the  resolution 'by  the  Connnittee,  would  -not  transfer 
the  controlling  pohtical  power  to  the  non-slave-holding  portion  of  the  community ; 
but  that  a  majority  in  the  Legislative  Department  of  the  Government,  would  still  be 
left  to  the  slave-holders.  If  this  be  true,  surely,  no  gentleman  would  apprehend,  for 
a  moment,  that  those  holdiug  the  power,  would  exercise  it  to  the  sacrifice  of  their  oicn 
interests.  '  I  pray  the  Committee,  to  look  for  a  moment,  to  their  statistical  tables,  and 
they  will  find  the  most  conclusive  evidence,  that  the  majority  of  the  Legislative  body, 
if  the  priaciple  of  the  white  basis  be  adopted,  would  still  remain  in  the  slave-holding 
portion  of  the  community.  Keeping  out  of  ^-iew  the  slave-holding  interest,  which 
exists  to  some  extent,  in  "the  countrv  beyond  the  Alleghany,  and  assuming  the  eastern 
base  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  as  the  western  boundary  of  the  slave-holding  population, 
there  it  will  be  found  the  slave-holding  interest  predominates.    If  to  this  you  add  the 


108 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION, 


slave-holding  interest  in  the  Valley,  you  give  an  overwhelming  majority  to  the  slave- 
holders. The  fears  of  gentlemen  must  vanish  before  facts  so  conclusive.  But,  Mr. 
Chairman,  we  ask  the  high-minded  honorable  gentlemen  of  the  east,  to  remember 
the  charitable  rule  of  judging  others  by  ourselves.  It  is  with  unfeigned  pleasure,  that 
I  bear  testimony  to  the  fact,  that  the  slave-holding  country  of  the  east,  have  never 
done  us  injustice  on  the  subject  of  taxation,  though  it  has  alv^ays  been  in  their  pow- 
er to  do  so.  They  have  most  liberally  contributed  to  the  revenue  of  the  State,  by  tax- 
ation on  their  slaves.  Why,  then,  fear  to  trust  the  people  of  the  west,  if  controlhng 
political  power,  should  devolve  upon  them  Have  we  less  vittue  and  honesty  ?  Are 
we  made  of  different  materials  ?  We  have  not  received  injustice  at  your  hands;  why, 
then,  should  you  apprehend  it  at  ours  f 

It  is  said,  that  there  is  a  diversity  of  interests  in  the  different  parts  of  the  State,  which 
must  be  harmonized  by  compromise.  It  is  hardly  possible  to  conceive  a  community  in 
which  there  is  not  a  diversity  of  interests. 

Sir,  diversity  of  interests  is  always  to  be  protected  by  wise  legislation ;  and  there  is 
no  fear  that  every  interest  will  not  be  fully  and  fairly  represented  in  our  Legislative 
bodv.  If  there  be  warring,  and  conflicting  interests,  the  question  would  then  be, 
could  a7iij  Constitutional  stipulations  or  provisions  reconcile  such  interests  ?  But  it 
remains  to  be  proved,  that  there  are  warring  and  conflicting  interests  within  this  Com- 
monwealth.   I  do  not  admit  the  fact. 

The  gentleman  from  Northampton  has  asked  us,  whether  we  will  consent  to  take 
all  the  political  power,  and  bear  all  the  pecuniary  burdens  ?  To  this  inquiry  I  indig- 
nantly answer  no.  The  gentleman  would  reject  such  a  proposal  himself.  We  will 
neither  buy  nor  sell  political  power  ;  we  regard  it  as  the  unalienable  property  of  the 
people,  which  they  have  not  a  right  to  barter  away  or  divest  themselves  of,  either  for 
themselves,  or  their  posterity. 

The  gentleman  from  Orange,  has  reprobated  the  idea  of  giving  political  power  to 
property  alone.  I  concvir  with  him  in  his  reprobation.  But  has  the  gentleman  re- 
flected, how  far  the  amendment  he  advocates,  in  effect,  leads  to  the  same  result  ?  He 
must  admit,  that  the  minority  of  the  people  ought  not  to,  and  cannot,  govern  the  ma- 
jority ;  but  he  contends,  that  property  connected  with  that  minority,  ought  to  govern. 
What,  then,  is  it  that  constitutes  this  right  to  govern,  upon  his  hypothesis  ?  It  is  cer- 
tainly property. 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  done.  I  have  presented  my  plain  views,  in  my  plain  way. 
I  am  thankful  to  the  Committee  for  their  polite  attention,  whether  it  proceeded  from 
courtesy  to  myself,  or  from  respect  to  any  thing  that  I  have  said. 

Mr.  Morris  of  Hanover,  then  rose,  and  addressed  the  Committee  substantially  as 
follows : 

After  the  able  discussion  this  question  has  undergone,  I  cannot  flatter  myself- 
with  the  hope  of  throwing  upon  it  much  additional  light.  But,  as  my  constitu- 
ents feel  themselves  very  deeply  interested  in  its  decision,  I  hope  to  be  indulged, 
while  I  assign  the  reasons  which  will  govern  my  vote  upon  it.  I  promise,  in  so  do- 
ing, not  to  detain  the  Committee  long. 

Mr.  Chairman,  it  seems  to  me,  that  the  question,  which  the  gentleman  from  Fred- 
erick (Mr.  Powell)  has  just  been  discussing,  is  not  the  question  now  before  us  for 
consideration.  The  question  we  have  to  decide,  is,  whether  representation  in  the  Le- 
gislative branch  of  our  Government,  shall  be  based  upon  numbers  only,  or  on  a  com- 
bined ratio  of  population  and  taxation  :  from  some  of  the  remarks  which  have  fallen  . 
from  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  he  seems  to  have  considered  the  question  to  be 
whether  it  should  be  based  on  all  ivho  enjoy  the  elective  franchise,  or  on  all  the  fighting 
men  in  the  community.  These  are  not  the  matters  which  we  are  now  considering. 
When  they  shall  be  presented  to  us,  if  they  ever  shall  be  presented,  the  proper  time 
will  arrive  to  attempt  an  answer  to  what  he  has  advanced.  The  question  now  before 
us  is  a  very  short  one.  Shall  representation  be  based  on  numbers  only  ?  Or  upon  po- 
pulation and  taxation  combined The  question  is  short,  but  in  its  decision  is  involv- 
ed much  of  the  happiness  or  misery  of  this  our  ancient  Commonwealth.  Before  I 
examine  it  more  minutely,  let  me  be  allowed  to  make  a  remark  or  two,  in  reply  to 
some  of  the  observations  of  gentlemen  on  the  other  side  of  this  question. 

As  the  end  of  all  good  Government  is  the  protection  of  property  as  well  as  of  per- 
sons, it  is  not  enough  for  those  gentlemen  to  prove  that  their  personal  rights  will  be 
endangered  unless  representation  shall  be  based  upon  numbers  alone.  If  they  had 
proved  this,  which  I  humbly  conceive  they  have  not,  still,  if  we  are  not  assured  that 
our  rights  of  property  will  be  secure  under  such  an  arrangement,  their  observations 
fall  short  of  the  mark  ;  they  do  not  cover  the  whole  ground.  Even,  if  it  be  true,  that 
they  will  not  be  protected  in  their  personal  rights,  without  the  introduction  of  the 
new  clause  in  the  Constitution,  yet,  if  that  clause,  in  its  practical  effect,  goes  to  lay 
prostrate  our  property  at  their  feet,  they  have  not  proved  to  us  that  the  article  ought 
to  be  inserted. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


109 


Their  argument  might,  indeed,  shew  us,  that  it  will  be  right  to  propose  to  the  peo- 
ple of  Virginia  ttoo  Constitutions  instead  of  one  ;  or  else  that  some  middle  principle 
must  be  resorted  to,  which  shall  protect  both  persons  and  property  ;  but  if  no  mode 
can  be  found,  of  giving  protection  to  both  ;  if  the  incongruity  between  the  two  in- 
terests really  be  so  great,  that  either  one  or  the  other  must  be  sacrificed,  I  agree  that 
the  Convention  should  provide  two  different  Constitutions.  I  earnestly  hope,  howe- 
ver, that  no  such  necessity  will  be  found  to  exist.  I  hope  it  will  appear,  that  we  may, 
at  the  same  time,  be  able  to  secure  to  the  west  the  enjoyment  of  their  personal  rights  ; 
and  to  the  east,  the  safe  possession  of  their  property.  I  hope  this,  as  a  Virginian  :  for 
I  feel  my  pride  interested  in  keeping  the  lines  of  the  State  as  they  exist  at  present. 
Sorry  should  I  be,  to  run  a  new  line  across  the  whole  of  our  ancient  territory  ;  nor 
can  I  ever  agree  to  such  a  measure,  unless  it  shall  be  found  necessary  for  the  protec- 
tion of  the  personal  rights  of  one  portion  of  the  State,  and  the  property  of  the  other. 
I  deprecate  the  existence  of  such  a  necessity.  V^hether  gentlemen  on  the  other  side 
of  the  question,  by  the  uniiompromising  perseverance  with  which  they  insist  on  car- 
rying all  the  points  they  have  in  view,  shall  bring  us  to  this  necessity,  I  will  not  even 
allow  myself  to  consider. 

Let  us  see,  Sir,  whether  there  be  any  thing  in  representative  Government,  which 
so  imperiously  requires  the  insertion  of  this  clause  ;  whether  it  be  indispensable  for  the 
preservation  of  a  Republican  Government,  that  representation  in  the  Legislative  De- 
partment shall  be  bottomed  upon  numbers  only.  If  this  principle  be  true,  and  our 
conflicting  interests  be,  indeed,  so  irreconcileable,  as  some  gentlemen  seem  to  suppose, 
I  know  not,  I  confess,  to  what  consequences  it  may  lead.  But  whatever  may  be  the 
basis,  upon  which  representation  is  made  to  rest,  I  am  satisfied  that  we  must  have  a 
Republican  Government.  Our  people  are  not  only  capable  of  enjoying  that  form  of 
Government,  and  desire  to  have  it,  but  we  cannot  make  for  them  any  other.  Because 
there  is  another  Government,  of  which  we  are  also  members,  which  has  guaranteed 
to  every  State  within  its  operation,  a  republican  form. 

But  is  it  necessary  tliat  such  a  Government  shall  be  based  upon  numbers  only 
When  this  debate  commenced,  it  seemed  that  the  principal  source  of  argument  was 
drawn  from  an  inherent,  independent,  a  priori  right  by  which  a  numerical  majority 
were  entitled  to  govern :  such  a  right  was  urged  upon  us  with  great  earnestness  at  first ; 
but  since  the  able  and  convincing  address  of  the  gentleman  from  Northampton  (Mr. 
Upshur)  it  appears  to  have  been  nearly,  if  not  quite  abandoned  :  and  now  the  position 
we  are  left  to  combat,  is,  that  this  right  of  the  majority  is  a  Conventional  right ;  that 
it  exists  by  the  agreement  of  our  ancestors,  and,  therefore,  ought  to  prevail.  They 
derive  the  proof  in  support  of  this  position  from  the  Bill  of  Rights,  and  the  general 
principles  there  laid  down ;  and  without  paying  the  least  regard  to  the  specifications 
in  the  Constitution  itself,  they  insist  that  the  general  positions  in  the  Bill  of  Rights 
ought  to  be  received  as  giving  the  universal  rule  for  all  free  Governments.  And  real- 
ly, Sir,  were  we  to  look  at  tlie  language  of  that  instrument  and  to  look  no  further, 
there  might  seem  to  be  much  force  in  their  argument.  But  it  is  an  established  rule 
of  interpretation,  that  in  order  to  get  at  the  true  meaning  of  any  instrument,  you  are 
not  to  look  at  one  of  its  parts  only,  separately  and  apart  from  the  residue,  but  you  are 
to  take  the  whole  record,  and  compare  one  part  with  another,  and  thus  judge  of  the 
connected  meaning  of  the  whole.  If  that  rule  is  pursued  here,  we  shall  be  obliged  to 
concede  that  the  venerable  men  who  were  the  authors,  both  of  the  Bill  of  Rights,  and 
of  the  Constitution  of  the  State,  were  in  the  former  stating  general  principles  only  : 
they  were  laying  the  foundation,  not  building  the  superstructure ;  and  when  they  did 
afterwards  build  it,  built  on  no  such  interpretation  of  the  first  instrument  as  is  now 
contended  for.  The  reason  gentlemen  give  for  this,  is  a  very  strange  one.  They  tell 
us  that  those  illustrious  men  were  too  much  hurried  ;  the  roar  of  hostile  cannon  was 
too  audible,  and  their  place  of  meeting  was  too  near  a  ruthless  enemy,  to  make  their 
work  what  it  would  otherwise  have  been.  They,  therefore,  could  not  carry  out  the 
principles  they  had  laid  down  in  the  Bill  of  Rights,  in  the  subsequent  structure  of  the 
Constitution.  It  does  not  seem  to  have  occurred  to  gentlemen,  that  if  the  near  neigh- 
borhood of  the  enemy,  and  the  roar  of  hostile  cannon,  and  the  dangers  and  alarms 
of  a  state  of  war,  operated  with  so  much  force  upon  their  minds,  when  they  were 
drawing  up  the  articles  of  the  Constitution,  the  same  circumstances  may  reasonably 
be  supposed  to  have  operated  with  equal  force  when  they  were  drawing  up  the  arti- 
cles of  the  Bill  of  Rights.  If  they  were  in  too  great  a  hurry  to  carry  out  general 
principles  in  the  Constitution,  we  may  as  well  suppose  they  were  in  too  great  a  hur- 
ry to  limit  those  principles,  when  they  laid  them  down  in  the  Bill  of  Rights.  If  we 
must  conclude,  that  they  would  have  made  the  one  of  these  instruments  very  differ- 
ent from  what  it  is,  if  they  had  had  more  time  for  dehberation,  why  is  it  not  as  fair, 
to  draw  the  same  conclusion  with  respect  to  the  other .?  But,  Sir,  is  the  fact  so  :  was 
the  Constitution  drawn  up  in  all  this  haste  Were  those  wise  men,  after  laying  the 
foundation  of  tlie  house  on  one  plan,  obliged  to  build  the  house  itself  on  another  ? 
1  am  sure  the  gentlemen  believe  what  they  havei  stated  to  be  strictly  true  ,  but  noth- 


110 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


ing  is5  more  certain  than  that  they  are  entirely  mistaken.  Sir,  there  are  men  now  liv- 
ing, I  was  almost  ready  to  say,  there  are  men  here  present,  who  could  inform  this 
Committee,  that  every  article  in  that  Constitution  was  duly  and  diligently  considered ; 
aye,  Sir,  was  debated,  inch  by  inch.  But  I  will  not  appeal  to  the  living.  I  will  ap- 
peal to  the  testimony  of  one  of  the  most  distinguished  statesmen,  whom  this  State  or 
this  country  ever  produced,  but  who  is  now  no  more.  I  could  support  by  his  testimo- 
ny a  multitude  of  facts  on  this  subject,  all  going  to  verify  the  assertion  I  have  made. 
I  refer  to  Mr.  JeiFerson,  who  has  left  conclusive  evidence  to  shew,  that  nothing  hke 
haste,  nothing  at  all  of  the  hurry  supposed  by  gentlemen  to  have  thrown  the  Consti- 
tution into  its  present  form,  had  any  existence.  He  says  expressly,  that  that  instru- 
ment was  discussed,  paragraph  by  paragraph,  and  disputed  inch  by  inch  :  that  the  de- 
bate was  protracted  so  as  to  produce  weariness,  and  that  in  consequence  of  this  wea- 
riness, a  "  projet"  of  his  own,  which  he  forwarded  to  a  member  of  the  Convention, 
was  not  submitted  to  its  consideration,  and,  of  course,  not  adopted,  wliilst  its  pream- 
ble was.  I  think,  therefore,  that  those  who  are  driven  to  contend,  that  while  the  Bill 
of  Rights  was  drawn  up  with  the  utmost  coolness  and  deliberation,  the  Constitution 
was  hurried  over  amidst  the  roar  of  cannon,  and  from  fear  of  the  enemy,  are  mistaken 
in  their  facts  :  the  evidence  is  all  against  them  :  and  I  am  persuaded  that  they  them- 
selves, if  they  consult  again  the  history  of  that  time,  will  acknowledge  that  they  have 
been  in  error.  Let  the  consideration  have  its  due  weig]it,that  both  these  instruments 
were  drawn  up  by  the  same  men,  and  at  the  same  time  ;  and  that,  in  the  exercise  of 
the  same  wisdom,  and  with  the  same  deliberation  and  care,  they  laid  down,  first,  the 
principles,  and  then  the  form  of  a  Government  for  Virginia.  Apply,  then,  to  these  two 
valuable  legacies  of  ovir  forefathers,  the  principles  of  interpretation  1  have  before  men- 
tioned. Do  not  take  up  one  half  the  instrument,  and  say  it  means  thus,  and  thus  ;  but 
put  both  the  parts  together  :  They  were  both  fashioned  by  the  same  hand  :  let  all  the 
strings  sound,  and  then,  if  I  mistake  not,  we  shall  be  led  to  a  different  conclusion.  If 
the  framers  of  these  two  instruments  understood  tliemselves,  and  if  on  comparing  the 
one  with  the  other,  it  shall  appear  that  the  meaning  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  is  not  such 
as,  taken  alone,  it  might  seem  to  bear  ;  we  must  give  effect  to  the  provisions  of  the 
whole,  so  far  as  we  can.  For  example,  take  the  language  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  on  the 
subject  of  the  right  of  suffrage.  Then  take  up  the  Constitution,  and  ask  what  it  has  en- 
acted on  the  same  subject and  see  if  there  be  any  thing  like  contradiction  between  them. 
The  Bill  of  Rights  declares,  that  all  persons  "  having  sufficient  evidence  of  permanent 
common  interest  with,  and  attachment  to,  the  community,"  shall  be  entitled  to  vote. 
The  question  to  be  settled  is,  what  is  the  true  meaning  of  this  declaration  .''  Some 
gentlemen  reply,  that  the  fact  of  having  been  born  within  the  State,  furnishes  all  the 
evidence  required ;  others  tell  us  that  a  residence  of  two  years  is  sufficient  evidence  ; 
others  require  a  residence  of  five  years  ;  and  almost  every  gentleman  has  some  qua- 
lification of  his  own.  But  do  the  framers  of  the  Constitution  and  the  Bill  of  Rights 
tell  us  any  such  thing  ?  No,  Sir  ;  they  say  that  the  evidence  they  considered  suffi- 
cient, is  a  FREEHOLD.  " 

Do  gentlemen  tell  me'that  here  is  a  contradiction  ?  Why,  Sir,  take  the  general  prin- 
ciple in  its  abstract  form  ;  and  you  might  argue  from  it  till  you  bring  us  at  length  to 
universal  suffi-age.  But  take  the  naked  principle,  and  view  it  in  connection  with  the 
Constitution,  and  there  you  find,  that  freeholders,  and  freeholders  only,  were  in  the 
contemplation  of  those  who  laid  down  the  principle.  The  one  gives  the  interpreta- 
tion of  the  other.  The  general  -principle,  is  in  the  Bill  of  Rights.  The  limitation  is 
in  the  Constitution.  The  same  remark  is  true,  as  applied  to  every  other  article. 
Let  us  apply  the  same  mode  of  interpretation  to  the  third  article  of  the  Bill  of 
Rights. 

The  gentlemen  say  that  all  free  white  citizens  in  the  State,  are  to  be  numbered,  and 
that  a  majority  of  that  number  have  the  right  to  rescind,  alter  or  new  model  the  Con- 
stitution as  they  please  j  that  they  are  to  have  the  law-making  power  ;  in  short,  that 
they  are  to  have  all  the  power  of  the  State  :  and  we  might  have  supposed  that  the 
framers  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  thought  so  too,  had  they  not  left  on  record  a  provision 
to  the  contrary.  When  they  come  to  make  the  Constitution  and  ordain  the  law-mak- 
ing power,  they  liinit  the  general  principle  laid  down  in  the  third  article  of  the  Bill 
of  Rights,  and  confide  that  power,  not  to  the  free  white  people,  but  to  the  freeholders 
in  the  several  counties. 

Here,  Sir,  you  find  that  they  intended,  not  a  majority  of  the.  free  white  male  citi- 
zens merely,  but  a  majority  of  citizens,  capable  of  affording  sufficient  pledges  that 
they  would  not  abuse  the  authority  entrusted  to  them.  This  is  the  majority  to  which 
they  looked,  and  here  is  the  limitation  of  the  principle  in  the  Bill  of  Rights.  Let 
the  gentlemen  themselves  say,  if  this  comparison  does  not  give  the  true  interpre- 
tation. 

It  was  said  by  the  gentleman  from  Brooke,  (Mr.  Doddridge)  that  the  Constitution 
has  recognized  no  principle,  by  which  slave-holders  are  to  be  protected. 


DEBATES    OF    THE  COXVENTIOX. 


Ill 


[Here  ^Ir.  Doddridge  explained.    What  he  had  said  was.  that  the  Constitution  re- 
cosrnizes  no  such  principle,  as  representation  in.  virtue  of  property.] 

3lr.  INIorris  resumed.  He  had  not  roisunderstood  the  gentleman  ;  but  would  now 
undertake  to  shew  that  he  was  mistaken.  It  is  true,  said  he,  that  the  word  slave." 
is  not  mentioned  either  in  the  Bill  of  Rights  or  in  the  Constitution  :  neither  do  we 
ask  that  it  should  be  inserted  now.  But  when,  in  1776.  Virginia  gave  the  control  of 
her  Grovernment  to  freeholders,  she  granted  it  to  slave-holders :  nor  could  she  have 
given  to  the  latter  a  more  effectnal  guarantee.  The  freeholder  was  himself  a  slave- 
holder. Was  it  necessarV;  expressly  to  say.  that  this  was  done  for  the  protection  of 
property  r  Sir,  we  infer  it  from  the  act.  Virginia  by  her  act,  granted  the  power  of 
the  State,  to  men  who  held  the  very  property,,  we  desire  to  secmre.  And  now  let  the 
gentleman  from  Brooke,  give  to  the  slave-holders  the  same  power  which  was  confi- 
ded to  them  bv  the  Constitution  of  '76,  and  so  far  as  this  subject  is  concerned,  I  am 
^siUing  to  adopt  his  proposition  immediately. 

It  was  said  by  my  friend  from  Chesterfieid,  that  this  principle  of  basing  representa- 
tion upon  numbers'  alone,  is  7uic :  and  I  concur  with  him  in  that  sentiment.  The 
principle  is  not  to  be  found  in  the  existiag  Constitution :  that  instrument  confides  the 
power,  not  to  a  majority  of  free  whites,  but  to  a  majority  of  freeholders.    ISIy  friend 
did  not  say  .  that  no  such  claims  as  are  now  advanced,  had  ever  been  made  before. 
He  was  well  aware  of  the  abortive  efibrts,  of  which  the  gentleman  from  Brooke,  has 
favored  the  Committee  with  an  account :  he  knew  perfectly  well,  that  this  doctrine 
had  been  asserted  at  Staimton  twelve  or  fifteen  years  ago  ;  but  he  thought,  as  I  do 
also,  that  the  memorial  from  Staunton,  and  the  abortive  efibrtsin  the  Legislature,  had 
not  affixed  this  new  principle  to  the  Constitution  :  a  principle  so  difierent  from  these 
laid  down  by  our  forefathers  ia  1776.  and  ^rhich  are  calculated  to  protect,  not  only 
personal  rights,  but  the  rights  of  property  also.    The  principle  of  a  majority  of  mere 
numbers,  was  not  only,  not  the  basis  of  the  existing  Constitution,  but  it  haibeen  ex- 
pressly and  most  solemnly  declared,  on  Vcirious  occasions,  that  it  is  tmsaie  to  lay  the  ba- 
sis of  representation  in  any  such  principle.    Such  a  declaration  was  the  ground  of  the 
provision  in  relation  to  slaves,  which  is  contained  in  the  Federal  Constitution  :  a  pro- 
vision, not  which  we  yielded,  but  on  which  we  ourselves  insisted.    Virginia,  before  she 
entered  the  confederacy,  insisted  that  her  representation  in  that  confederacy  should 
not  be  according  to  the  numbers  of  her  white  population  alone.    And  who.  Sir.  were 
the  men  that  thus  contended  in  the  memorable  Convention  which  framed  the  Fede- 
ral Constitution  ?  Some  of  those  very  men  who  framed  our  own  State  Constitution,  and 
drew  up  the  BiU  of  Rights.    Yes,  Sir.  the  very  men,  who  laid  down  the  abstract  prin- 
ciples, from  which  gentlemen  attempt  to  maintain  the  doctruie  of  a  white  basis  ex- 
clusively, insisted  that  our  Federal  representation  should  be  compoimded  of  property 
as  well  as  numbers.  We  did  not  acquiesce  in  the  principle  :  We  demanded  the  pranci- 
ple.  We  demanded  it  as  a  protection  fcr  all  tins  great  southern  country,  which  was  then 
filled  with  slaves.  Protection  against  whom  .'  against  enemies    dishonest  and  rapaci- 
ous ?  and  who  would  be  tempted  by  interest  to  depredation  and  rapine :  ZS'o,  Sir,  against 
men,  just  as  kind-hearted,  just  as  upright,  just  as  honorable,  just  as  c'enerous.  as  axe  our 
brethren  now  :  Against  men  who  had  shed  their  blood  in  our  conunon  stru^a-le  for 
independence  ;  men,  who  had  lain  with  us  side  by  side  in  the  camp,  and  stool  with 
us,  side  by  side  in  the  battle,  not  ten  years  before.    And  why,  Sir  :    Why  did  we  de- 
mand such  a  pledge  .'    Because  we  held  it  necessary  to  ovir  protection.    Xot  that  we 
suspected  their  motives  :  not  that  we  imputed  to  tiiem  wickedness  ;  but  because  we 
knew  then,  as  all  men  know  now,  that  unless  property  is  protected,  it  will  be  invaded. 
Virginia  stood  in  relation  to  the  Union  at  that  day.  as  we  now  stand  towards  our  bre- 
thren of  the  west.    And  will  our  brethren  deny,  what  our  sister  States  of  the  Union 
granted  .-    I  do  not  deny,  that  other  considerations  entered  into  the  Federal  Compact, 
besides  the  mere  distribution  of  power.    Union  was  a  most  important  object;  so  im- 
portant, that  almost  any  thing  was  to  be  sacrificed  for  the  sake  of  attainiuor  it :  vet. 
notwithstanding  the  importance  of  union,  and  the  earnest,  anxious  desire  for^ it.  which 
was  felt  by  Virginia,  she,  nevertheless,  insisted  upon  this  poiat  as  a  sine  qua  non : 
Unless  that  was  inserted  in  the  Federal  Constitution,  Virginia  would  not  take  that 
Constitution. 

Sir,  we  are  called  upon  now,  when  placed  iu  like  circumstances .  to  c-ive  up  the  great 
principle  for  which  they  thus  contended ;  and  can  it  be  said  that  we  have  fewef  mo- 
tives to  insist  upon  it  than  they  had.-  If  such  is  the  fact,  let  it  be  shewn :  but  if  not, 
as  it  is  not,  what  apology  can  we  make  to  posterity  ?  Let  \  irginia  give  up  this  princi- 
ple and  what  wiU  be  said  ?  Will  it  not  be  said,  that  the  great  southern  State,  has"  o-iven 
up  the  great  southern  doctrme  for  which  she  contendecfin  17S9  r  And.  when  the  de- 
cision of  that  question  shall  be  agitated  in  the  Federal  Government,  how  shall  we 
stand .'^  ^  irginia  the  great  southern  State,  has  given  up  the  point.  It  is  vain  for  the 
rest  of  the  south,  to  attempt  to  maintain  it.''  ^But,  Sir,  there  is  a  necessity  for  our 
maintaining  it.  Tou  have  been  told  by  the  gentleman  fmxa  Northampton,  that  one 
eleventh  part  of  our  power  in  the  Federal  Government,  is  derived  from  this  princi- 


112 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


pie,  and  rests  upon  it.  Cut  it  down,  by  the  act  of  this  Convention,  and  how  will  the 
south  sustain  itself  in  our  National  Councils  ?  Mr.  Chairman,  we  have  more  motives 
than  our  fathers  had  on  this  subject.  We  have  given  up  to  the  Federal  Government, 
the  entire  power  of  laying  duties  upon  imposts.  We  have  surrendered  all  our  most 
valuable  sources  of  revenue  into  their  hands,  and  now  we  have  few  resources  left  but 
direct  taxation  upon  our  lands  and  slaves.  At  the  time  of  the  adoption  of  the  Fede- 
ral Constitution,  the  wise  men,  who  framed  that  instrument,  knew  that  all  the  resour- 
ces of  foreign  coimuerce  were  to  be  in  the  hands  of  the  Federal  Government,  and  that 
the  necessity  of  resorting  to  direct  taxation,  would  seldom  arise.  If,  then,  our  ances- 
tors thought  it  necessary,  at  that  day,  to  insist  on  the  principle  ;  if  they  rejected  a  re- 
presentation based  on  numbers,  and  insisted  on  a  guarantee  for  the  protection  of  pro- 
perty, can  our  motives  be  less  for  a  similar  policy  ?  Surely  not.  They  are  magnified 
ten-fold.  Those  who  framed  the  General  Government,  were  well  aware  of  the  vast 
resources  which  must  be  derived  to  it,  from  foreign  commerce  :  but,  we  know,  by  sad 
experience,  that  a  State  Government  can  have  no  resources  for  wealth,  but  what  she 
derives  from  direct  taxation.  If  our  fathers  insisted  on  a  guarantee  against  the  mere 
<?Drttoo-c?ic//,  that  the  General  Government  might,  sometimes  be.  obliged  to  resort  to 
direct  taxation,  how  much  more  ought  we  to  be  on  our  guard,  whose  direct  taxes  are 
annually  and  daily  recurring 

But,  Sir,  we  have  given  other  evidence,  that,  in  our  judgment,  the  interpretation 
which  the  gentlemen  would  put  upon  the  Bill  of  Rights,  is  not  the  true  one.  Not 
only  did  the  very  men,  who  drew  up  our  Bill  of  Rights,  themselves  insist  upon  a 
compound  basis  of  numbers  and  property  ;  biit  look,  Sir,  how  we  ourselves  have  dis- 
posed of  power,  in  the  structure  of  the  Senate  of  the  United  States.  I  know  the 
case  is  not,  in  all  points,  parallel ;  but  I  refer  to  it,  as  going  to  shew,  that,  in  the  judg- 
ment of  Virginia,  mere  numbers  never  do  constitute  a  fit  basis  for  representation, 
(unless,  indeed,  where  the  peculiar  nature  of  the  case  is  such,  that  they  are,  in  them- 
selves, an  all-sufficient  guarantee  ;)  but,  wherever  great  interests,  either  political  or 
pecuniary,  are  about  to  be  placed  in  jeopardy,  a  different  principle  is  instantly  resorted 
to.  I  say,  then,  that  in  the  construction  of  the  less  numerous  branch  of  the  Federal 
Legislature,  so  far  from  admitting  the  principle  of  a  mere  majority  of  numbers  hav- 
ing the  right  to  rule,  we  agreed,  that  that  principle  should  be,  in  a  still  greater  degree, 
disregarded,  than  is  proposed  now  by  the  amendment  before  us.  We  stipulated  ex- 
pressly, that  all  the  States  should  enjoy,  in  that  body,  a  strictly  equal  representation. 
The  little  States  of  Delaware,  Rhode  Island,  and  New-Jersey,  are  precisely  on  a  foot- 
ing with  Virginia,  New- York,  and  Pennsylvania.  Sir,  is  there  any  thing  here  like 
an  equality  of  numbers  The  inequality  is  vast )  it  is  infinite  :  far,  far  beyond  any 
thing  that  is  asked  or  thought  of  between  us  and  our  transmontaine  brethren. 

Why  was  such  an  article  as  this,  inserted  in  the  Federal  Constitution.''  It  was  for 
the  purpose  of  preserving  the  political  sovereignty  of  the  small  States ;  and  it  was  ne- 
cessary to  that  end.  Numbers  did  not,  and  could  not  prevail.  If  they  had,  the  small 
States  would  have  been  in  jeopardy  every  hour.  We  deliberately  agreed  to  the  ar- 
rangement. We  ourselves  said,  that  in  point  of  representation  in  the  Senate,  Rhode 
Island  and  Delaware  should  be  on  the  same  footing  with  Virginia  or  New- York. 

I  know  it  may  be  urged,  that  this  was  not  a  compromise  among  individuals,  but 
among  sovereign  States.  Granted.  But,  are  we  not  making  a  compromise,  similar  in 
character  and  principle  A  compromise  to  preserve  the  rights  of  individuals,  as  dear 
to  them,  and  as  important  to  them,  as  political  sovereignty  can  be  to  a  State.  Is  it 
not  for  the  preservation  of  that  on  which  their  families  are  to  subsist  ?  For  the  preser- 
vation of  their  property  ? 

It  is  a  compromise,  on  the  same  principle  and  for  the  same  end ;  with  this  only  dif- 
ference, that  property  is  in  the  place  of  political  power. 

Numbers  then,  were  not  in  76  or  in  '87,  the  pi-inciple  by  which  the  people  of  Vir- 
ginia, were  regulated,  in  conferring  power  either  on  her  own  State  authorities,  or 
those  of  the  Federal  Government. 

Is  there  no  great  interest  concerned  in  this  question Shall  we  be  told  that  it  is 
not  a  great  interest  which  is  to  be  protected  ?  Aye,  but  it  is  said  that  interest  is  not 
in  jeopardy.  Sir,  what  is  the  present  actual  condition  of  this  State  ?  In  what  position 
do  we  stand  ?  In  this  position :  The  slave  population  on  this  side  the  Blue  Ridge, 
Y  amounts  to  390,000;  the  slave  population  beyond  the  Blue  Ridge,  amounts  to 
50,000.  On  this  side  the  Ridge  is  raised  more  tlian  three-fourths  of  the  entire  amount 
of  taxes  paid  in  the  State.  Beyond  that  Ridge  is  raised  less  than  one-fourth  of  those 
taxes.  Beyond  that  Ridge,  lie  40  counties.  Some  of  these  of  rich  and  fertile  land, 
and  one  of  the  most  beautiful  limestone  valleys  on  which  the  sun  shines.  And  yet, 
Sir,  this  whole  region  of  country,  from  the  Blue  Ridge  to  the  Ohio  river,  is  drawing 
every  year  from  the  public  chest,  for  the  administration  of  justice,  and  the  purposes 
of  representative  Government,  a  sum  greater  than  it  brings  into  the  general  fisc.  And 
now,  Sir,  what  are  we  asked  to  do  ?  While  we  pay  three-fourths  of  the  taxes,  and 
they  one-fourth,  and  while  they  draw  from  the  treasury,  more  than  they  pay  into  itj 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


113 


we  are  asked  to  adopt  into  our  Constitution  an  article  by  which  the  whole  pohtical 
authority  and  tax-laying  power  of  the  State,  shall  be  transferred  beyond  the  Ridge  !  Sir, 
I  do  not  say.  nor  do  I  believe,  that  the  people  west  of  the  Pvidge,  are  any  less  moral, 
or  in  any  respect,  worse  than  those  to  the  east  of  it :  but  I  would  ask  them,  with  all 
frankness,  whether  tlieij  would  feel  safe  in  the  like  circumstances  ?  Whether  such  a 
state  of  things  could  be  called  Republican  ?  Or,  whether  it  would  not  interfere  with 
the  very  firsfprinciples  of  Republican  Government?  I  ask,  what  is  the  money  raised 
by  taxation  in  a  free  Government  ?  Is  it  a  contribution  e:ctorttd  by  the  power  of  a  des- 
pot? By  the  King  or  his  Nobles  ?  Has  any  power,  existing  in  a  RepubUc,  a  right  to 
take  away  from  me,  10,  *23,  50  per  cent,  of  my  property,  without  any  consultation 
with  me  or  my  representative  ?  No.  Sir.  It  is  of  tlie  very  essence  of  Repubhcan 
Government,  that  all  money  raised  for  pubhc  purposes,  shall  be  the  voluntary  dona- 
tion of  the  people,  by  themselves  or  their  agents.  But  what  sort  of  a  donation  is 
that,  where  another  lays  the  tax  and  makes  the  donation  out  of  my  property  ?  Is  that 
the  donation  of  the  holder?  Sir.  I  was  surprised  when  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk 
said,  the  other  day,  that  taxation  and  representation,  sprang  from  different  foun- 
tains, and  flowed  into  different  and  distant  oceans. 

My  little  reading  had  led  me  to  believe,  that  the  representative  nrinciple  in 
modern  times,  and  as  it  now  exists  upon  the  American  Continent,  owed  its  birth  to 
the  British  House  of  Commons ;  where  representation,  according  to  our  notion  of 
it,  first  existed.  That  vras  the  viodel  from  which  all  the  various  forms  of  representa- 
tive Government,  in  North  and  South  America,  have  been  taken.  In  som.e  instances 
we  have  improved  upon  it :  in  others  we  have  fallen  below  it ;  but  varied  as  our  forms 
are,  the  House  of  Commons  was  our  original  model.  Now,  that  House  had  no  au- 
thority in  the  beginning,  but  from  the  fact  that  its  members  were  the  tax-layers. 
They  were  called  for  the  purpose  of  aUbrding  aids  to  the  King,  out  of  their  property. 
Sir,  it  was  this  searching  power  of  taxation,  which  gradually  elevated  the  House  of 
Commons,  until  they  were  enabled  to  say  to  the  proudest  of  their  Monarchs,  we  will 
not  grant  you  the  money  for  which  you  ask  us.  unless  we  know  ana  approve  the  pur- 
pose to  which  it  is  to  be  applied.  From  this  fountain  have  proceeded  all  the  Repub- 
lican Governments  on  the  American  Continent.  The  gentleman  is  much  mistaken 
in  supposing  that  these  two  powers  are  so  little  together.  But  let  us  now  recur  to  the 
principle  that  the  grantors  have  a  right  to  be  first  consulted  before  their  money  is  dis- 
posed of.  We  are  told,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  we  must  rely  on  the  morality,  on  the  in- 
tegrity and  virtue  of  the  majority  as  a  sufficient  guarantee.  I  know  the  people  who 
live  beyond  the  Ridge  ;  I  am  acquainted  with  tlieir  character  j  and  I  most  cheerful- 
ly admit  that  there  are  none  on  whose  virtue  and  honor  I  would  more  readily  rely. 
But  the  gentleman  from  Orange  very  truly  said,  that  the  principle  on  which  all  free 
Governments  rest,  is  not  confidence,  but  jealousy .  and  watchfulness.  Would  not 
the  good  sense  of  gentlemen  feel  shocked,  if  any  one  here  should  propose  tliat  the 
Legislature  of  Ohio  should  be  empowered  to  tax  Virginia  ?  Is  there  a  man  on  this 
floor,  who,  on  hearing  such  a  thing  mentioned,  would  not  cry  out  that  it  was  too 
monstrous  a  proposition  to  be  tolerated  ?  Now,  Sir,  I  believe  that  the  gentlemen  who 
constitute  the  Legislature  of  Ohio,  have  a  general  feeling  towards  Virginia  of  kind- 
ness and  good  will ;  and  that  their  integrity  is  as  great  as  our  own.  But  why  revolt, 
then,  at  the  very  idea  of  their  having  power  to  ta^  us  ?  Cannot  we  rely  upon  their 
morality,  their  integrity  and  virtue  ?  Sir,  it  is  not  because  we  deny,  or  even  sus- 
pect their  morals,  that  we  shrink  from  such  a  proposition  :  but  because  the  Legisla- 
ture of  Ohio  cannot  know  as  accurately  as  we  do.  the  situation  cf  this  part  of  the 
country,  with  which  they  have,  comparatively,  little  connection,  and  no  fellow-feeling; 
and  because  men  vote  taxes  with  much  less  caution  and  care  when  they  do  not  ex- 
pect themselves  to  pay  any  part  of  the  tax,  than  when  they  are  personally  interested 
in  its  effects  and  responsible  to  those  who  must  pay.  It  is  one  thing  to  give  your  as- 
sent to  a  requisition  which  falls  upon  those  you  never  saw,  and  quite  another  to  vote 
for  it  when  you  must  go  back  and  bear  your  own  share  in  the  contribution,  and  face 
those  who  are  to  bear  the  burden  with  you.  If  this  principle,  viz  :  that  those  alone 
should  have  power  to  lay  a  tax  who  will  be  required  to  pay  it,  be  not  a  fundamental 
principle  of  a  representative  Government,  why  is  it  that  the  tax-la3-ing  power  is,  by 
the  Federal  Constitution,  confided  to  the  House  of  Representatives  alone  ?  Why.in 
a  great  majority  of  the  .States,  is  the  same  provision  engrafted,  that  money-bills  shall 
originate  in  the  popular  branch  of  their  Legislatures  r  And  if  it  be,  on  what  ground 
does  the  principle  rest  ?  Obviously  on  thelfact,  that  in  that  branch  there  vrill  always 
be  foun.i  more  of  the  men  who  are  to  pay  the  tax,  and  who  feel  intimately  with  the 
people,  the  weight  of  their  financial  burdens.  Sir,  these  principles  are  the  very  cor- 
ner-stones of  a  free  Government,  and  they  constitute  very  striking  features  in  all  our 
State  Constitutions.  Grant  now  to  the  gentlemen,  what  they  are  asking  by  the  re- 
solution of  the  Legislative  Committee  ;  and  will  any  one  of  these  principles  be  brought 
to  bear  upon  the  property  of  the  people  who  live  in  the  south  eastern  portion  of  Vir- 
ginia ?  People  who  hold  about  400,000  slaves,  and  who  furnish  nearly  all  tlie  revenue 

15 


114 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


of  the  State  ?  Taxation  is  the  grant  of  a  people  holding  property  for  the  purpose  of 
supporting  the  Government  of  their  choice.  But  how  is  it  to  be  a  donation  ?  If  it  is 
made  by  the  Legislature  of  Ohio  out  of  the  funds  of  the  people  of  Virginia,  all  men 
see  at  once  that  it  can  be  no  such  thing.  But  if  it  be  done  by  those  who  pay  less 
than  one-fourth,  where  we  pay  more  than  three-fourths,  how  is  it  more  our  donation 
than. if  it  was  given  away  by  the  Legislature  of  Ohio?  Sir,  all  our  property  will  be 
swept  from  us  by  the  plan  we  are  gravely  asked  to  adopt  as  fair  and  equal.  The  peo- 
ple of  the  west,  for  example,  want  to  make  some  Appian,  or  some  Flaminian  way,  or 
some  Roman  aqueduct,  or  some  other  such  splendid  work  of  Internal  Improvement: 
(It  is  not  my  purpose  to  ridicule  works  of  Internal  Improvement.  There  are  some 
of  tliose  works,  in  support  of  Avhich,  under  proper  circumstances,  I  would  go  as  far  as 
they  ;)  but  they  wish,  perhaps,  to  unite  the  waters  of  the  Ohio  and  Potomac,  and  so 
they  must  tunnel  the  Alleghany.  Well,  Sir;  what  will  be  done.?  Will  they  lay 
taxes  to  effect  these  great  projects  No,  Sir,  not  all  :  not  at  first:  they  will  begin  not 
with  taxes,  but  witli  debt,  and  debt  is  always  taxation  at  last:  pay-day  must  come: 
and  when  it  has  come,  then  comes  tlie  tax  ;  and  how  is  the  tax  collected  ?  Why,  Sir, 
one-fourth  part  of  it,  and  less  than  that,  is  collected  to  the  west  of  the  Blue  Ridge, 
(i.  e.  where  the  great  project  is  carried  on)  and  the  remaining  three-fourths  of  it  is  col- 
lected ;  where,  Sir  ?  i)i  the  country  south-east  of  that  ilidge.  When  you  come  to  the 
vote  for  lajung  the  tax,  every  member  from  the  south-eastern  country  is  dissatisfied  ; 
every  one  of  them  is  convinced  the  scheme  is  totally  impracticable  and  a  mere  waste 
of  tlie  public  mone}^,  and  he  speaks  and  votes  against  it.  And  what  is  the  effect  of 
their  votes  just  what  it  would  have  been  had  they  all  voted  the  other  way.  The  do- 
nation is  made ;  and  it  is  made  out  of  their  property  ;  but  it  is  made  by  others  :  it  is 
made  by  men  who  embrace  entirely  difterent  views,  and  have  entirely  different  in- 
terests ;  men  who  act  most  honestly  in  the  matter,  being  sincerely  and  strongly  of 
opinion  that  the  project  is  of  great  importance  ;  very  practicable,  and  very  desirable. 
Sir,  is  this  a  donation.?  I  ask,  are  the  three-fourths  of  this  tax  a  donation  of  ours? 
No,  Sir,  the  money  is  taken:  it  is  taken  from  us:  not  by  Legislative  "  rapine;"  not 
by  the  perpetration  of  wickedness  ;  not  at  all ;  but  taken  from  us  against  our  consent, 
because  they  are  of  a  different  opinion  from  us  ;  and  that  with  respect  to  matters  on 
which  there  is  confessed  to  be  room  for  a  wide,  yethoneot  difference  of  opinion.  Mr. 
Chairman,  I  fear  to  entrust  my  brethren  with  such  a  power  :  1  fear  it  because  they  are 
not  accountable  to  those  whose  money  they  take  and  have  no  common  interest  with 
them :  that  is  the  reason,  the  republican  reason,  on  which  I  ground  a  refusal  of  their 
claims. 

If  I  am  right,  then  the  highest  degree  of  moral  virtue,  the  most  pure  and  unblem- 
ished integrity,  and  I  had  almost  said,  the  most  sublime  intelligence,  afford  us  no  ade- 
quate protection  :  for  men  always  have  differed, and  always  will  differ,  in  questions  in- 
volving great  and  expensive  objects  of  national  enterprize.  When  the  time  comes  at- 
which  the  taxes  must  be  levied  (though  they  will  not, -as  I  said,  begin  by  direct  taxa- 
tion; nay,  it  is  probable  there  will  be  some  diminution  of  taxes  for  a  time,  because 
they  will  resort  to  debt,  which  the  people  cannot  feel,  but  come  they  must.)  they  will 
fall  on  those  Avho  were  never  consulted  or  who  were  voted  down. 

Sir,  my  friend  did  say  that  the  great  principle  which  lay  at  the  foundation  of  our 
revolution,  was  involved  in  the  amendment  now  before  you;  and  I  am,  I  confess,  of 
the  same  opinion.  Are  not  the  cases  parallel .?  do  they  not  rest  upon  the  same  princi- 
ple .?  viz :  that  the  money  of  the  people  is  nor  to  be  taken  but  by  the  consent  of  them- 
selves or  their  authorised  agents.?  Sir,  what  was  the  American  Revolution.''  was  it 
not  the  resistance  of  a  claim  set  up  by  the  British  Parliament  to  tax  the  Colonies  with- 
out their  consent.? 

We  have  been  told  by  the  gentleman  from  Brooke  (Mr.  Doddridge)  that  America 
resisted  the  demand,  because,  though  England  and  America  were  under  the  same 
Crown,  they  were  different  nations;  just  as  Scotland  and  Ireland  were  before  the 
union ;  and  so  the  Legislature  of  the  one  could  not  tax  the  other.  But,  Sir,  the  Co- 
lonies came  under  the  British  Crown  in  a  way  very  different  from  Scotland  or  Ire- 
land. The  question  between  America  and  the  mother  country  could  never  have  arisen 
if  she  had  been  situated  toward  the  Crown  as  was  either  of  those  kingdoms.  The 
Charter  which  fixed  the  boundaries  of  Virginia  was  granted  by  the  King  of  England 
to  English  subjects;  to  subjects  who  resided  in  London;  and  for  a  long  time,  the 
vWiole  Government  of  Virginia  was  conducted  in  London,  subject,  however,  to  the 
control  of  Parliament ;  and  it  was  only  after  the  Colony  had  become  too  populous  to 
be  thus  managed  any  longer,  that  the  grant  was  made  to  it  of  having  a  Provincial 
Assembly.  Our  situation  was  more  analagous  to  that  of  British  India,  than  it  was  to 
Ireland  or  Scotland.  But,  Mr.  Chairman,  it  was  not  because  Parliament  undertook 
to  tax  us  while  we  were  not  represented  in  that  body,  that  America  drew  tlie  sword  : 
it  was  because  our  Colonial  Charters  had  declared  that  the  Colonists  should  enjoy  all 
the  rights  of  native-born  British  subjects  ;  and  one  of  these  rights  was,  that  you  should 
not  touch  their  property  but  by  their  own  consent.    That  was  the  ground,  and  the 


DEBATES    OF    THE  CONVENTION. 


115 


true  ground,  of  our  revolutionary  struggle.  It  was  not  that  we  liad  no  representation 
in  Parliament :  for  as  to  that,  it  was  even  pretended  that  as  by  our  Charters,  our  lands 
were  to  be  held  as  of  the  ^Nlanor  of  East  Greenwich  in  the  kingdom  of  England  by  the 
tenure  of  tree  and  common  soccage,  we  constituted  a  part  of  the  diocese  of  one  of  the 
Enghsh  Bishops,  and  were,  therefore,  virtually  represented  in  tlie  person  of  his  lord- 
ship in  the  Upper  House,  and  by  the  members  from  Kent  in  the  other.  But  our  an- 
cestors well  knew  that  representation  in  Parhanient  would  be  no  security  against  op- 
pression. Suppose,  to  quiet  our  discontents.  Great  Britain  had  offered  to  allow  us  to 
be  represented,  to  how  many  delegates  should  we  have  been  entitled?  Let  ine  see; 
there  were  the  two  Adamses,  and  Hancock,  and  Franklin,  and  Lee.  and  Henry,  and 
tlie  Rutledges.  Why,  Sir,  upon  the  principle  contended  for  by  gentlemen,  we  could 
not  have  been  authorised  to  have  more  than  twenty  or  twenty-five  of  them;  thirty 
perhaps.  ^Here  a  shrill  and  very  peculiar  voice  was  lieard  to  say  -  less  than  the  coun- 
ty of  Wilts.' J  Less  than  the  county  of  Wilts.  I  hear  it  suggested.  Well,  Sir;  sup- 
pose them  seated  in  the  House  of  Commons.  A  tea  tax  is  proposed.  They  get  up 
and  resist  it:  they  tell  the  Parhament,  in  our  ov,-n  American  phrase,  that  America 
••cant  stand  it."  Suppose  tiiem  to  declare  that  she  ought  not  to  stand  it.  till  at 
length,  icaxing  %v-armer  as  they  proceed,  they  tell  the  House,  America  2cHl  not  stand 
it ;  she  wiU  resist  the  tax.  Sir,  would  it  answer  any  purpose  to  say  this  to  the  JNIinis- 
ter  in  a  body  containing  five  hundred  members .'  Some  gentleman  would  immediate- 
ly get  up  and  say.  "  hy  gentlemen,  you  are  in  a  minority  :  you  may  vote  against 
this  tax.  if  you  please :  but  we,  who  are  more  capable  of  judging  what  is  best  for 
America  and  for  the  whole  empire,  say  the  tax  must  be  raised."  What  is  the  conse- 
quence ?  These  old  revolutionary  men  come  back :  they  are  asked  in  some  town- 
meetiag,  or  other  assemblage  of  their  fellow-citizens,  ••  How  came  you  to  suffer  this 
tax  upon  tea  to  be  laid.'*'    And  they  would  say  (according  to  gentlemen's  doctrine) 

we  did  not  consent  to  the  tax;  we  resisted  it  to  the  utmost  of  our  power ;  we  were 
fully  heard  :  but,  the  majority  was  against  us ;  we  couJd  not  help  it ;  and  you  must 
pay  the  tax ;  that's  all.  The  money  was  wanted :  It  was  necessary  to  aid  iFrederick 
to  confirm  his  conquest  of  SOesia:  it  was  indispensable  to  prevent  a  Trench  Prince 
from  mounting  the  throne  of  Poland  :  it  must  be  had  to  enable  the  German  troops  to 
cross  the  Rhine/'  The  citizens  very  likely  would  reply,  ■'•  whv.  what  are  all  these 
thins's  to  us  .'  We  care  nothing  about  Frederick,  or  Silesia  either  :  is  our  money  to  o-q 
for  such  projects?  '  The  old  men  would  slirug  their  shoulders,  and  reply,  youmi^ 
e'en  pay  the  tax."  Would  the  men  of  the  revolution,  have  saSered  the  powers  of 
this  great  nation  to  be  crushed  in  tiie  cradle  by  miserable  sophistications  like  these  ? 
Sir.  I  ask  you,  if  they  were  not  made  of  sterner  stuff?  Would  they  not  have  said  to 
the  people  of  the  United  States,  (what  they  did  say.)  "  miless  you  resist  this,  the  re- 
sources of  your  country  will  never  be  unfolded :  you  can  never  reach  the  period  of 
mauihood:  you  must  resist,  or  be  ruined.'" 

Sir,  I  bring  no  charge  or  accusation  against  gentlemen  on  the  other  side :  I  have  no 
doubt  whatever  of  the  purity  of  their  motives :  but,  for  myself,  I  cannot  imagine  a 
more  frightful  despotism  than  to  enable  one  great  division  of  the  countrj-  to  set^itself 
in  opposition  to  another  great  division  of  it,  and  by  a  majority  of  one  single  vote,  to 
take  from  them  whatever  they  please. 

We  are  told  that  when  we  have  given  them  supreme  power,  they  intend  to  exer- 
cise it  with  great  mildness  and  moderation :  that  they  will  not  avail  themselves  of  it 
to  do  the  least  injustice,  but  will  manage  our  affairs  ^v^th  great  forbearance  and  liber- 
ality. 

But  might  not  the  same  language  be  held  to  the  subjects  of  the  most  absolute  des- 
pot on  earth  ?  Despotism  does  not  consist  in  the  actual  exercise  of  arbitrarv  power. 
The  greatest  despot  in  the  world  may  be  constitutionally  mild,  and  mav  rule  liis 
people  with  great  clemency.  But  it  is  tlie  authority  to  oppress,  which  constitutes 
despotism.  And  if  we  are  to  be  so  situated,  as  to  be  left  alisolutely  dependent  upon 
the  will  of  others,  and  nothing  we  can  do  or  say  is  to  have  the  least  effect  in  resisting 
it  :  if  we  are  to  rely  for  our  security  upon  the  mere  sic  rolo  of  another  roan,  what 
will  they  be  but  despots  ?  and  what  shall  we  be  but  slaves  ?  Sir,  do  we  ask  any  thing 
which  may  enable  us  to  be  thus  despotic  over  thera  ?  No,  Sir,  we  are  but  asking 
what  we  have  obtained  already,  in  the  Federal  compact.  We  ask  only  that  that 
shEdl  be  done  in  Virginia,  which  has  been  done  in  the  Carolinas,  and  has  produceji  no- 
thing but  perfect  concord  :  and  which  has  been  done  by  o\ir  sister  Georgia,  and  pro- 
duced there  the  most  entire  domestic  tranqiaillity.  If  you  yield  to  'ur  proposal,  of  a 
mixed  basis  of  representation,  it  will  not  tiu"ow  the  people  of  the  v.  rst  at  our  feet,  as 
the  adoption  of  the  other  plan  must  infallibly  tlu"ow  us  aX  theirs.  Let  us  set  off  to 
lay  what  taxes  we  please,  to  operate  beyond  the  movmtain,  and  their  operation  must, 
be  precisely  equal  upon  ourselves.  With  the  exception  of  slaves  only,  the  articles  of 
taxation  are  the  same  on  both  sides  of  that  boundary :  so  that  we  must  either  tax 
ourselves  with  them,  or  be  guilty  of  the  open  barefaced  villainy  of  saying  in  our  law, 
that  the  tax  shall  operate  on  A,  but  it  shall  not  in  like  circumstances,  operate  on  B. 


116 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


But,  surely,  Sir,  there  can  exist  no  danger  that  either  we  or  they  will  thus  use  the 
taxing  power.  Among  honorable  men,  it  is  surely  not  necessary  to  say  that  taxes 
shall  be  made  to  operate  equally  on  all  in  like  circumstances.  But,  Sir,  while  we  are 
thus  restricted,  so  that  we  cannot  tax  our  brethren  unless  we  also  tax  ourselves,  xcc 
have  a  species  of  property  which  tliey  have  not;  and  on  which  they  may  lay  what 
tax  they  please,  without  themselves  paying  under  that  law,  a  single  dollar.  And  this 
too,  a  sort  of  property,  the  most  easy  to  be  taxed  of  all  others,  and  the  most  certain 
of  raisin o-  the  money.  Payment  is  inevitable.  But,  suppose  us  to  lay  a  tax  upon 
cattle  :  when  we  go  to  look  for  the  cattle  of  our  brethren  of  the  west,  where  are  they 
to  be  found.?  Their's,  Sir,  are  the  cattle  on  a  thousand  hills  :  they  raise  enough  for 
their  own  use,  and  ours  :  and  have  a  large  surplus  besides,  wherewith,  to  supply  a 
foreign  market ;  while  we  have  so  few,  that  we  can  hardly  make  our  own  butter ; 
and  yet,  strange  to  tell,  when  we  did  once  make  the  experiment,  of  laying  such  a  tax, 
we  had  ourselves  to  pay  the  greater  part  of  it.  Sir,  it  depends,  altogether,  at  what 
season  the  tax-gatherer  happens  to  visit  our  brethren,  whether  they  shall  pay  the  tax 
or  ice.  I  don't  believe,  Sir,  that  the  number  of  their  cattle  is  known  even  to  them- 
selves ;  and  I  dare  say,  there  are  gentlemen  here  present,  who  would  not  know  their 
own  herds,  if  they  should  meet  them  on  a  mountain  twenty  miles  from  home.  But, 
lay  your  tax  upon  slaves,  Sir,  and  they  are  not  fattened  this  week,  and  gone  the  next, 
before  the  tax-gatherer  can  come  for  his  dues.  They  are  here  ;  I  had  almost  said  they 
are  fixed  here  firmly  ;  but  I  know  there  are  some  gentlemen,  who  tell  us,  that  we 
shall,  at  some  future  day,  get  rid  of  them  all.  Sir,  I  give  all  credit  to  the  integrity 
of  the  west ;  but,  really,  if  tiiis  plan  of  their's  shall  succeed,  the  prophecy  may  possi- 
bly be  fulrilled  ;  for,  then,  I  think,  we  shall  be  obliged  to  give  them  up.  Not  that  I 
have  any  fear,  that  when  these  gentlemen  get  the  power,  they  will  pass  a  general 
emancipation  law  ;  but,  if  they  raise  the  tax  on  slaves,  much  higher  than  it  is,  one  of 
two  things  must  happen  :  either  the  viaster  must  run  away  from  the  slave,  or  the  slave 
from  the  master.  The  more  fertile  districts  of  the  State  ;  the  rich  low  grounds  of 
James  River,  for  instance,  may  be  able  to  bear  a  greater  burthen ;  but  upon  the  in- 
crease of  the  slave  tax,  much  of  it  must  be  paid  by  that  portion  of  the  lower  country 
which  consists  of  sterile  ridges.  Slave-labour  upon  them  cannot  stand  it,  and  if  they 
go  on  to  raise  the  taxes,  our  slaves  must  go  somewhere  else,  because  we  cannot  keep 
them.. 

Perhaps  some  gentlemen  may  consider  it  a  very  desirable  thing,  that  we  should  be  " 
reduced  to  such  a  necessity  ;  but,  Sir,  let  it  once  be  known,  that  this  separation  of 
the  master  and  his  slave  is  not  a  voluntary  thing  on  either  side,  but  a  matter  of  com- 
pulsion, produced  by  the  agency  of  the  Government :  I  care  not,  whether  this  agency 
be  manifested  by  the  passage  of  a  law  of  emancipation,  or  a  tax-law  depriving  the 
master  of  the  power  of  holding  his  slave  :  and  soon  a  sword  will  be  unsheathed,  that 
will  be  red  with  the  best  blood  of  this  country,  before  it  finds  the  scabbard.  This 
thing  between  master  and  slave,  is  one  which  cannot  be  left  to  be  regulated  by  the 
Government.  Compensation  for  400,000  slaves,  can  not  be  made.  The  matter  must 
be  left  to  the  silent  operation  of  natural  causes.  Sir,  I  impute  no  evil  purpose  to  our 
brethren  of  the  west ;  but  1  never  can,  nor  will  consent  that  it  shall  be  left  for  them 
to  say  what  tax  thall  be  paid  on  the  slaves  of  Virginia,  while  their  owners  have  no 
voice  in  the  matter. 

Sir,  let  us  choose  a  middle  ground  :  a  ground  which  so  many  of  the  Republics  of 
America  have  already  taken  :  let  us  agree  upon  a  compound  basis  of  representation, 
and  remain  a  united  and  harmonious  people. 

After  Mr.  Morris  had  closed,  the  Committee  rose,  and  the  Convention  immediately 
adjouriied. 


SATURDAY,  October  31,  1829. 

The  Convention  assembled  at  eleven  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the 
Rev.  Mr.  Skid  more,  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  John  S.  Barbour,  the  Convention  resolved  itself  into  a  Commit- 
tee of  the  Whole,  Mr.  Stanard  in  the  Chair. 

Mr.  Campbell  (of  Brooke,)  then  addressed  the  Chair,  in  nearly  the  following  terms  : 

Mr.  Chairman — I  have  never  been  in  the  habit  of  making  apologies ;  1  never  liked 
them.  When  I  hear  apologies  from  gentlemen,  who,  either  have  acquitted  then  .ielves 
well,  or  expect  to  acquit  themselves  well,  I  am  reminded  of  the  lady  in  the  play; 

Who,  in  hopes  of  contradiction,  oft  would  say, 
Methink.s,  I  look  so  wretchedly  to-day. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


117 


But  really,  Sir,  I  am  compelled  to  make  an  apology  on  the  present  occasion.  When 
I  rise  to  address  an  assemblage  composed  of  such  illustrious  patriarchs,  sages  and  poli- 
ticians ;  when  1  consider  their  superior  age,  experience  and  attainments,  and  that  I 
am  not  only  little  experienced,  but  without  ^jxperience  in  such  addresses  as  I  am  now 
to  make,  I  cannot  but  feel  embarrassed  and  intimidated.  But,  Sir,  this  embarrass- 
ment arises  most  of  all,  from  the  fears  which  I  entertain,  that  I  may  not  be  able  to  do 
justice  to  the  cause  which  reason  and  conscience  have  compelled  me  to  espouse.  Nay, 
Sir,  I  know  that  I  cannot  do  it  justice  ;  and  I  sincerely  say,  that  I  do  not  expect  to 
meet  the  expectations  of  its  friends.  But  I  am  compelled  to  contribute  my  mite  ;  and 
well,  I  am  cissured,  that  it  will  be  a  very  small  contribution  indeed. 

I  am  a  man,  Sir,  and  as  such  I  cannot  hut  feel  interested  in  every  thing  which  con- 
cerns the  prosperity  and  happiness  of  man. 

I  feel  myself  one  of  the  race,  and  when  I  consider  our  origin  and  our  destiny,  I  see 
so  much  to  interest  me,  I  cannot  but  feel  a  deep  interest  in  every  thing  connected 
with  the  happiness  of  my  species.  I  am  not,  Sir,  beheve  me,  under  the  influence  of 
district  or  local  feehngs.  In  all  matters  to  be  discussed  here,  I  am  a  Virginian.  I  feel 
myself  inspired  with  that  spirit,  which  regards  the  interest  of  every  man,  slave-holder 
or  non-slave-holder  in  the  State.  If  I  lived  in  Northampton,  1  would  advocate  the 
same  principles  which  I  now  do  in  coming  from  Brooke.  It  was  principles,  Mr.  Chair- 
man, which  brought  me  here.  Principles,  Sir,  wliich  reason,  observation  and  experi- 
ence convinced  me,  are  inseparably  connected  with  the  temporal  prosperity  of  men ; 
and  of  our  State  of  Virginia  :  And  principles,  Sir,  which  are  not  to  be  sacrificed.  I 
know.  Sir,  that  local  interests,  and  district  feelings,  can  only  yield  to  principles.  Ani- 
mosities and  contentions  must  arise  between  rival  interests,  unless  fellow-citizens  are 
determined  to  be  governed  by  principles.  Too  often  it  happens,  from  clashing  inter- 
ests, tlaat — 

Lands  intersected  by  a  narrow  frith, 
Abhor  each  other,  mountains  interposed 
Make  enemies  of  nations,  wlio  had  else 
Like  kindred  drops,  been  mingled  into  one. 

But,  Mr.  Chairman,  we  are  entirely  out  at  sea  in  this  debate.  We  set  sail  without 
compass,  rudder,  or  pilot.  So  anxious  were  some  gentlemen  here  to  put  to  sea,  that 
when  we  called  for  the  compass  and  the  pilot,  they  exclaimed  :  Never  mind,  we  w^ill 
get  the  compass  and  the  pilot  when  we  get  to  port.  We  are  now  a  thousand  miles 
from  land.  G-entlemen  are  making  fine  speeches  upon  the  elements  of  the  ocean,  and 
now  and  then  upon  the  art  of  sailing.  It  will  be  well  if  the  rari  nantcs  in  gurgite 
vasto,  apply  not  to  us. 

I  wanted,  Sir,  to  take  the  pilot,  the  compass,  and  the  rudder  aboard.  But  in  the 
good  old  laconic  style,  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  exclaimed,  "  write  the  preface  af- 
ter you  have  icritten  the  hook.''''  Yes,  Sir,  we  shall  learn  the  language  before  we  learn 
the  grammar;  we  shall  demonstrate  all  the  propositions  in  Euclid,  and  then  learn  the 
axiomata,  and  the  postulata  ;  we  must  build  the  house  and  then  lay  the  foundation; 
we  must  heal  the  constitution,  and  then  feel  the  pulse. 

I  am  sorry,  Sir,  that  we  did  not  first  establish  the  principles,  or  at  least,  agree  upon 
all  the  principles  on  which  the  frame  of  Government  should  be  based,  before  we  at- 
tempted to  form  the  Constitution. 

I  see  no  reasonable  bounds  can  be  fixed  to  this  discussion.  Every  gentleman  here 
has  to  tell  us  his  own  principles,  or  to  oppose  those  of  others  ;  and  more  than  the 
half  of  every  speech  yet  pronounced,  has  been  in  defence  of  mere  abstractions,  as 
some  gentlemen  would  call  them.  For  my  part,  I  never  could  reason  without  some 
principles  to  reason  from,  and  some  point  to  reason  to.  The  Bill  of  Rights  of  '76  has, 
it  is  true,  been  declared  sound  doctrine,  but  gentlemen  seem  to  me,  to  be  continually 
oppugning  it. 

Call  me  orthodox,  or  call  me  heterodox,  I  confess  that  I  believe,  that  in  the  science 
of  politics,  there  are  as  in  all  other  sciences,  certain  fundamental  principles,  as  true 
and  unchangeable  as  any  of  the  fundamental  principles  of  physics  or  mornls.  * 

It  is  just  as  true,  that  Government  ought  to  be  instituted  for  the  benefit  of  the  gov- 
erned, as  that  a  whole  is  greater  than  a  part ;  or  that  a  straight  line  is  the  shortest  pos- 
sible distance  between  any  two  given  points. 

I  had  intended,  Sir,  to  examine  the  arguments  in  detail,  offered  by  gentlemen  in 
favor  of  the  amendment.  Not  as  if  these  arguments  had  not  been  already  refuted,  if 
I  may  be  allowed  the  expression,  by  other  gentlemen  who  have  preceded  me,  on  the 
side  of  the  question  I  espouse.  But,  Sir,  I  have  found  such  a  sunilarity  of  argument, 
used  by  the  very  eloquent  pleaders  for  the  basis  of  wealth  and  population,  that  I  have 
this  morning  rather  abandoned  the  idea  of  going  into  these  dry  details.  It  will  still 
be  necessary,  that  I  pay  some  attention  to  some  minor  matters,  which,  in  my  judg- 
ment, involve  important  principles,  and  the  more  especially,  as  the  public  mind  will 
consider  every  thing  off*ered  here,  as  of  some  importance.  This  community.  Sir,  will 
be  much  indebted  to  the  gentlemen,  w^ho  have  been  at  so  much  pains  to  furnish  all 


118 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


the  deliberations  of  this  Convention,  They  will  furnish  much  information,  necessary 
to  prepare  the  public  to  judge  of  the  merits  of  the  Constitution,  which  we  are  to  submit 
to  them.  Although  I  am  not  capable  of  throwing  much,  if  any  light,  upon  these  sub- 
jects, I  cannot  but  rejoice  that  so  much  will  be  elicited ;  and  that  the  public,  both  our 
cotemporaries  and  posterity,  will  be  able  to  decide  upon  the  wisdom  and  utility  of  the 
various  schemes  advocated  in  this  Assembly.  Yes,  Sir,  posterity  will  be  able  to  ap- 
plaud or  censure  the  views  presented,  and  the  course  pursued  by  the  advocates  of  the 
respective  projects. 

Tlie  remarks,  which  I  am  now  to  offer,  will  tend  to  establish  four  important  items : 

1.  That  the  principles  of  the  friends  of  this  amendment,  are  based  upon  views  of 
society,  unphilosophic  and  anti-republican. 

2.  That  the  basis  of  representation,  which  they  advocate,  is  the  common  basis  of 
aristocratical  and  monarchical  Governments. 

3.  That  it  cannot  be  made  palatable  to  a  majority  of  the  present  freeholders  of  Vir- 
ginia :  And, 

4.  That  the  white  population  basis,  yAW  operate  to  the  advantage  of  the  whole  State. 

1.  I  could  wish,  Sir,  that  my  sole  object  now  was,  to  fortify  and  illustrate  these  po- 
sitions; but  with  a  reference  to  the  matters  before  me,  I  can  only  attempt  this  inci- 
dentally. My  province  is  rather  to  follow  those  on  the  affirmative,  or  who  plead  the 
policy  of  the  amendment,  than  to  go  into  new  details.  Yet  still.  Sir,  I  expect,  that  some 
or  all  of  these  points  will  .be  illustrated  in  the  review  proposed. 

The  gentleman  (Mr.  Morris,)  from  Hanover,  gave  us  yesterday,  a  splendid  display 
of  his  rhetorical  powers.  I  wish  I  could  commend  his  logic,  as  sincerely  as  I  do  his 
rhetoric.  His  whole  speech  was  founded  upon  two  or  three  assumptions,  as,  indeed, 
have  been  those  who  preceded  him  on  the  same  side.  And,  Sir,  allow  me  two  or  three 
assumptions,  and  I  don't  know  what  I  could  not  prove.  He  assumed,  that  the  only 
legitimate  meaning  of  the  Bill  of  Kights,  was  to  be  learned  from  the  Constitution  : 
That  the  meaning  of  the  phrase  "  permanent  common  interest  with,  and  attachment 
to,  the  community,"  meant,  a  freeholder,  with  twenty-five  acres  of  land,  and  a  cabin 
on  it.  But  again,  he  defined  the  term  freeholder ,  as  signifying  in  the  year  '76,^ a  slnve- 
Iwldcr.  He  assumed  in  the  next  place,  that  slave-property  was  protected,  though  not 
named  in  the  Constitution,  in  confining  the  Right  of  Suffrage  to  freeholders  alone. 
So  I  understood  him.  Now,  Sir,  let  these  matters  be  conceded,  and  the  gentleman 
from  Hanover,-has  the  foundation  for  a  fine  oration.  But  another  assumption  was  yet 
necessary  to  give  wings  to  his  imagination.  He  must,  contrary  to  the  very  lucid  and 
statistical  expose  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  whose  speech  he  never  noticed, 
he  must,  I  say,  assume,  -that  if  white  population  only,  should  be  adopted  as  the  basis 
of  representation,  then  the  non-slave-holders  would  have  the  exclusive  control  in  all 
Governmental  arrangements,  and  would,  at  once, interfere  with  the  rights  of  masters  to 
their  slaves.  Then,  Sir,  his  feelings  were  roused  to  the  height  of  true  eloquence,  and 
with  an  inspiration  drawn  from  this  view  of  the  matter,  he  retires  with  a  sword  in  his 
hand,  stained  to  the  hilt  with  the  best  blood  in  Virginia.  I  do  not  think  it  necessary, 
Mr.  Chairman,  to  expose  an  argument,  an}'-  farther,  than  to  shew  it  is  based  upon  as- 
sumption  only.  Thus  shewn,  and  although  it  may  please  our  fancy,  it  cannot  inform 
our  judgment. 

He  then  took  us  with  him  to  London,  and  shewed  us  the  British  Parliament,  with, 
some  twenty  or  thirty  Americans  amongst  them.  The  stamp  and  tea  tax  are  in  debate 
in  the  British  Parliament,  and  the  American  Colonists  are  found  of  course  debating 
and  voting  against  it.  But  wlmt  are  '*  twenty-five  against  five  hundred  !"  Home 
they  come,  and  tell  the  doleful  tale.  They  inflame  the  people,  and  preach  rebellion. 
They  are  a  minority  and  must  rebel,  because  they  cannot  submit.  If  this  picture 
was  pertinent,  and  designed  to  operate  upon  this  Committee,  then,  Sir,  it  must  have 
been  designed  either  to  discredit  the  popular  doctrine  of  these  Republics,  viz  :  that  the 
minority  must  submit  to  the  majority,  or  that  if  the  gentleman  should  find  himself  in 
the  minority,  he  would  not  submit  his  property  to  the  control  of  the  representatives 
»  of  white  population  alone  :  in  fact,  this  doctrine  would  lead  all  minorities  into  rebel- 
lion. I  forbear  to  follow  him  to  Ohio,  as  this  allusion  had  no  reference  to  any  senti- 
ment expressed  in  this  House. 

I  am  sorry  to  observe  so  strong  a  dislike  to  the  doctrine  of  a  majority,  appearing  in 
many  of  the  gentlemen's  speeches  on  this  floor.  If  this  does  not  squint  towards  aris- 
tocracy, if  it  does  not  lead  us  towards  the  principles  assumed  by  the  monarchists  of  the 
old  world,  I  am  not  a  judge  of  such  matters. 

I  go  back  tv»  the  honorable  gentleman  from  Culpeper.  His  first  axiom  was,  that  all 
men  have  equal  natural  rights,  but  not  equal  political  rights.  That  they  have  the 
former,  he  has  conceded  ;  but  why  they  ought  not  to  possess  the  latter,  he  has  not 
shewn.  If  they  have  equal  natural  rights,  they  ought  to  have  equal  Conventional 
rights  ;  else,  one  part  of  them  surrenders  a  larger  share  of  their  natural  rights,  when 
they  enter  into  society,  than  another  part.  But  logic  is  yet  wanting  to  shew  why  A, 
in  entering  into  society,  should  surrender  more  of  his  natural  rights  than  B.  Will 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


119 


some  gentleman  now,  or  at  any  future  time,  shew  us  the  reason  why  A,  in  sur- 
rendering a  part  of  his  natural  rights,  should  be  obliged  to  surrender  more  than  B  ? 

I  wish  most  sincerely,  Sir,  that  that  gentleman  may  yet  be  able  to  redeem  a  pledge 
which  he  has  staked.  He  said,  he  hoped  to  be  able  to  shew  from  the  Bill  of  Rights 
itself,  "  that  it  was  never  contemplated  to  confer  on  any  man,  the  right  of  governing 
another  against  his  own  consent."  He  and  I  most  cordially  concur  in  this  sen- 
timent, and  I  hope  he  may  be  inclined  to  go  as  far  in  this  matter,  as  his  honorable  as- 
sociate, tlie  gentleman  from  Northampton,  who  has  affirmed,  "  that  he  will  hold  no 
principle  as  true,  which  he  will  not  carry  out  to  its  legitimate  results."  In  this  I  con- 
cur with  the  latter  gentleman  :  and  if  all  the  members  of  this  Assembly,  concurred 
with  the  gentlemaii'from  Northampton,  Virginia  would  soon  be  generated  from  North 
to  South,  from  East  to  West. 

He  next  asserts  that  the  jus  majGris  is  not  recognized  as  a  natural  right,  but  as  a 
Conventional  right.  This  may  be  true,  but  it  will  prove  as  much  for  us,  as  for  him. 
In  other  remarks  upon  the  Bill  of  Rights,  this  gentleman  makes  it  a  dead  letter  of 
very  questionable  import,  and  of  as  questionable  authority.  Yet,  Sir,  he  decided  it  on 
one  occasion,  at  least,  to  be  a  part  of  the  Constitution  of  Virginia.  In  deciding  the 
case  of  Crenshaw  versus  The  Slate  River  Company,  Randolph's  Reports,  vol.  6,  p. 
276,  he  saj^s,  "  our  Bill  of  Rights  is, a  part  of  our  Constitution,  and  the  general  prin- 
ciples thereby  declared  are  fundamental  kncs,  except  so  far  as  they  are  modified  by 
the  Constitution  itself.  They  limit  the  powers  of  the  Legislature,  and  prohibit  the 
passing  any  laws  violating  these  principles.  The  first  article  declares,  '  that  all  men  are 
by  nature  free  and  independent,  and  have  certain  inherent  rights,  of  which,  when  they 
enter  into  a  state  of  society,  they  cannot,  by  any  compact,  deprive  or  divest  their  pos- 
terity ;  namely,  the  enjoyment  of  life  and  liberty,  with  the  means  of  acquiring  and 
possessi?ig  propcrt]/,  and  pursuing  and  obtaining  happiness  and  safety  to  deprive  a 
citizen  of  any  property  legally  acquired,  without  a  fair  compensation,  deprives  him 
quoad  hoc  of  the  means  of  possessi?ig  property,  and  of  the  only  means  so  far  as  the 
Government  is  concerned,  besides  the  security  of  his  person,  of  obtaining  happiness." 
So  decided  the  honorable  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  when  the  present  question  was 
not  before  him  ;  but  we  have  an  excuse  for  him  in  this  instance.  He  had  been  so 
much  engaged  in  fortifying  his  amendment  from  deductions  from  Cocker's  arithmetic 
the  evening  before  to  shew,  that  while  the  wise  men  all  came  from  the  East,  the 
march  of  empire  was  to  the  West,  that  his  mental  lights  were,  for  the  time  beincr, 
eclipsed. 

"  But,  Sir,  it  is  not  the  increase  of  population  in  the  west  which  this  gentleman 
ought  to  fear.  It  is  the  energy  which  the  mountain  breeze  and  western  habits  im- 
part to  these  emigrants.  They  are  regenerated;  politically,  I  mean.  Sir.  They  soon 
become  icofking  politicians ;  and  the  difference.  Sir,  between  a  talking  and  a  tcorhincr 
politician,  is  immense.  The  Old  Dominion  has  long  been  celebrated  for  producino- 
great  orators  ;  the  ablest  metaphysicians  in  policy  ;  men  that  can  split  hairs  in  all  ab- 
struse questiens  of  political  economy.  But  at  home,  or  when  they  return  from  Con- 
gress, they  have  negroes  to  fan  them  asleep.  But  a  Pennsylvania,  a  New-York,  a 
Ohio,  or  a  western  Virginia  Statesman,  though  far  inferior  in  logic,  metaphysics,  and 
rhetoric,  to  an  old  Virginia  Statesman,  has  this  advantage,  that  w-hen  he  returns 
home,  he  takes  off*  his  coat,  and  takes  hold  of  the  plougli.  This  gives  him  bone  and 
muscle.  Sir,  and  preserves  his  Republican  principles  pure  and  uncontaminated. 

Bidding  adieu  for  the  time  being,  to  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  I  proceed  to 
make  my  devoirs  to  the  honorable  gentleman  from  Northampton. 

This  gentleman  starts  with  the  postulate,  that  there  are  two  sorts  of  majoi-ities ;  of 
numbers  and  interests  ;  in  plain  English,  of  men  and  money.  I  do  not  well  under- 
stand, why  he  ought  not  to  have  added,  also,  majorities  of  talent,  plwsical  strength, 
scientific  skill,  and  general  literature.  These  are  all  more  valuable  than  money,  and 
as  useful  to  the  State.  A  Robert  Fulton,  a  General  Jackson,  a  Joseph  Lancaster,  a 
Benjamin  Franklin,  are  as  useful  to  the  State,  as  a  whole  district  of  mere  slave-hold- 
ers. ^  Now,  all  the  logic,  metaphysics  and  rhetoric  of  this  Assembly,  must  be  put  in  re- 
quisition to  shew,  why  a  citizen,  having  a  hundred  negroes,  should  have  ten  times 
more  political  power  than  a  Joseph  Lancaster,  or  a  Robert  Fulton,  with  only  a  house 
and  garden.  And  if  scientific  skill,  physical  strength,  military  prowess,  or  general 
literature,  in  some  individuals,  is  entitled  to  so  much  respect,  why  ought  not  those 
majorities  in  a  community  to  have  as  much  weight  as  mere  wealth 

W e  admit  that  fifty  men  in  one  district,  may  have  as  much  money,  as  five  hundred 
in  another ;  but  we  can  see  no  good  reason,  why  the  superabundant  wealth  of  those 
fifty  should  be  an  equivalent,  or  rather  a  counterpoise,  against  four  hundred  and  fifty 
citizens  in  another.  Why  should  not  fifty  men,  possessing  as  much  talent,  as  much 
military,  scientific,  or  general  information,  in  one  district,  outweigh  four  hundred  and 
fifty  nabobs,  who  are  mere  consumers  or  political  drones  in  the  national  hive,  living 
in  another  ?  Amongst  those  who  place  mammon  on  the  loftiest  throne,  I  know  no- 
tliing  weighs  like  gold.    But  according  to  the  logic  of  the  honorable  gentleman  from 


120 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Northampton,  if  Stephen  Girard,  an  old  man,  without  wife  or  child,  now  worth 
12,000,000  of  dollars,  were  to  buy  up  one  or  two  districts  in  Virginia,  and  depopulate 
them,  and  cover  them  with  sheep  and  cattle,  he  might,  if  he  would,  become  a  resi- 
dent and  elect  himself,  and  become  a  member  of  both  the  Senate  and  House  of  De- 
legates at  the  same  time.  But  the  property  basis  of  representation,  never  can  become 
tolerably  rational,  until  each  vote  is  valued  at  a  given  sum,  and  every  man  have  as 
many  votes,  as  he  has  the  stipulated  price.  Fix  the  votes  at  two  hundred  or  five  hun- 
dred  dollars  each,  and  let  him  who  is  worth  one  thousand  dollars,  have  fifty  or  twenty 
votes.  This  will  give  some  semblance  of  equity  to  the  procedure  ;  otherwise,  a  poor 
man  in  one  district,  may  have  the  power  of  ten  in  another. 

Yes,  Sir,  according  to  the  doctrine  of  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  one  poor 
man,  because  lie  lives  in  the  n<  ighbourhood  of  a  very  rich  man,  would  have  more  po- 
litical power  than  the  wealthiest  citizen  in  the  west,  who  lived  in  the  neighbourhood 
of  many  poor  men.  This  fact,  alone,  defeats  the  design  of  this  gentleman's  scheme, 
and  shews  its  incompatibility  with  itself.  This  gentleman  could  find  no  law,  or  right, 
as  he  termed  it,  in  nature,  but  the  right  of  the  strong  to  devour  the  weak.  Brutal 
force  governs  every  thing.  He  presented  the  lion  devouring  the  ox ;  the  ox  driv- 
ing the  lamb,  the  lamb  something  weaker,  but  last  of  all,  the  worm  eating  the  ele- 
phant. 

This,  Sir,  is  but  a  small  part  of  the  incongruity  of  this  honorable  gentleman's  doc- 
trine with  Republican  principles.  But  he  concludes,  there  are  no  pnnciples  in  Go- 
vernment ;  and  his  honorable  associate  (Judge  Green)  from  Culpeper,  declares,  that 
men  are  governed  by  interest  only.  And,  as  for  the  poor,  they  have  no  affection,  no 
love  of  country,  no  social  feelings,  no  conscience,  no  religion  ;  they  are  all  governed 
by  mere  cupidity  !    No  wonder  the  eloquent  gentleman  from  Orange,  afiirmed  that 


This  gentleman,  1  mean  the  gentleman  from  Orange,  in  his  clear  and  forcible  ora- 
tion the  other  day,  began  with  the  Bill  of  Rights,  as  usual,  and  with  the  first  article 
too.  I  believe  he  admitted  it  to  be  true  doctrine  in  theory,  but  dangerous  in  the  ap- 
plication :  Ml  men  are  horn  free  and  independent.  This  is  a  position  much  older  than 
these  United  States,  and  flowed  from  a  gentleman,  to  whom,  more  than  any  other, 
these  American  States,  are  indebted  for  all  their  civil  and  religious  liberties.  Gentle- 
men may  encomiaze  whom  they  please  ;  but  there  is  no  man  more  worthy  of  American 
admiration,  than  the  statesman,  the  philosopher,  and  the  christian  who  is  the  legiti- 
mate father  of  the  first  article  of  the  Bill  of  Rights.  I  need  not  tell  you,  Mr.  Chair- 
man, that  I  allude  to  the  Author  of  the  Essay  on  Toleration,  the  Author  of  the  Essay 
upon  the  Human  Understanding.  Now,  Sir,  I  do  not,  because  I  cannot,  concur  with 
those  gentlemen,  who  say  that  this  article  contains  a  truth,  and  yet  maintain  that  it 
is  dangerous  in  its  application.  Truth  with  me,  Sir,  is  eternal,  and  what  was  true  in 
morals,  or  in  the  science  of  man  and  Government  five  thousand  years  ago,  is  true  still: 
truth  is  at  least  one  day  older  than  error.  And,  Sir,  it  is  dangerous  to  depart  from  a 
truth  so  fundamental  as  that  now  before  us.  It  will  be  found  that  the  slightest  depar- 
ture from'it  in  practice,  will  soon  or  late  prove  a  curse  to  mankind.  The  departure 
may  be  gradual  and  imperceptible,  like  the  gradual  and  almost  imperceptible  disincli- 
nation of  two  straight  lines.  Project  them  at  one  end,  they  meet  in  an  acute  angle  ; 
but  extend  them  a  great  distance,  and  at  the  other  end  they  will  recede  from  each 
other  to  a  great  distance.  So  may  our  departure  from  correct  principles  issue  in  an 
ultimate  abandonment  of  our  form  of  Government.  The  acute  and  discriminating 
gentleman  from  Orange,  seems  also  to  find  fault  with  the  third  article  of  the  Bill  of 
Rights,  which  declares  that  a  majority  of  the  citizens  of  any  State,  have  a  right  to  al- 
ter or  amend  the  form  of  Government,  when  it  becomes  disagreeable  to  them.  He 
gave  us  a  long  recital  of  our  failures  to  obtain  majorities.  He  instanced  the  plurali- 
ties which,  in  most  instances,  decide  our  County,  State,  and  United  States'  elections; 
the  usages  in  Congress  ;  and  finished  his  recitation  of  departures  from  the  principle  and 
practice  in  presenting  one  juror  controlling  eleven.  The  genius  who  could  find  in  a 
jury  of  twelve  men,  called  to  decide  a  question  of  fact,  or  even  a  question  in  law,  a 
proof  for  our  departure  from  the  principle  of  a  majority,  could  easily  infer  that  our 
republican  institutions,  might  issue  in  a  monarchy,  and  prove  that  we  ought  to  estab- 
lish a  minority  of  men,  with  a  majority  of  money  !  But,  Sir,  in  all  these  exam- 
ples, it  is  mere  convenience,  and  the  supposed  majority  of  wishes,  coinciding  with 
the  plurality  obtained,  which  reconciles  these  communities  to  these  usages.  I  except 
the  allusion  to  the  Senate,  and  Congress  of  the  United  States,  and  the  reference  to 
juries,  as  not  apphcable  to  the  question  at  issue,  and  as  explicable  upon  otlier  prin- 
ciples. 

But,  since  I  am  come  to  the  subject  of  majorities,  I  wish  to  make  a  remark  or  two 
upon  the  origin  of  them.  The  gentlemen  on  the  other  side,  have  triumphantly  call- 
ed upon  us,  to  find  the  origin  of  majorities  in  the  state  of  nature.  Nay,  indeed,  they 
almost  ridicule  the  idea  of  men  existing  in  a  state  of  nature.  We  all  know,  that  men 
roaming  at  large,  over  the  forests,  could  have  no  idea  of  majorities  ;  it  is  not  applica- 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


121 


ble  to  them.  But,  so  soon  as  men  form  a  social  compact,,  it  is  one  of  the  first  things, 
which,  from  nature  itself,  would  present  itself  to  them.  The  true  origin  of  this  idea, 
is  found  in  tue  nature  and  circumstances,  of  men.  Man  is  a  social  animal,  and  in  obe- 
dience lo  this  law  of  his  nature,  he  seeks  society,  and  desires  the  countenance  of  man. 
But,  as  all  men  are  not  born  on  the  same  day,  and  do  not  all  place  tlieir  eyes  upon  .the 
same  object,  at  the  same  time,  nor  receiA-e  the  same  education,  they  cannot  all  be  of 
the  same  opinion.  Some  arrangement,  founded  on  the  nature  of  man,  for  men's  liv- 
ing together,  must  then  be  ad(,p:;ed.  And  the  impossibility  of  gratifying  their  social 
desires,  but  in  yielding  to  ditferences  of  opin.on,  presents  itself  among  tiie  very  first 
reflections.  In  all  matters,  tiien,  of  common  interest,  when  a  difference  occurs,  one 
party  must  yield.  They  must  either  agree  to  yield,  or  to  form  a  new  community. 
But,  which  shall  yield  :  All  nature  cries,  the  inlerior  to  the  superior  ;  the  weaker  lo 
the  stronger  ;  the  less  to  the  greater.  \l  is,  then,  founded  on  the  nature  of  th.ngs. 
And  a  moment's  reflection  will  convince  us,  that,  in  case  of  a  struggle,  the  minority 
must  yield  to  the  rnajority ;  for,  they  have  the  power,  either  to  compel  it,  or  to  expel 
the  disaffected.  It  is,  then,  as  natural  a  conclusion  and  arrangement,  as  can  be  con- 
ceived. 

But,  Sir,  there  are  some  vrho  deny  the  existence  of  a  state  of  nature  altogether. 
Were  it  imaginary,  v.'e  can  reason  from  it,  as  well  as  upon  any  other  abstract  subject 
whatever.  But,  Sir,  it  is  not  altogether  imaginary.  History  affords  some  instances, 
of  what  is  at  least  aualagous  to  it,  of  dispersed  individuals  forming  a  social  compact. 
We  shall  give  an  illustration  of  what  history  has  recorded  :  Hist(,ry  has  informed  us, 
that  political  communities  have  been  broken  up,  and  irom  their  ruins,  new  ones  have 
been  formed.  For  example  :  Should  some  Ibreign  enem}^  invade  this  country  \  and 
may  Heaven  long  avert  that  day  1  I  say,  suppose  that  for  our  iniquities  in  (xovern- 
ment,  some  foreign  enemy  should  invade  our  country,  and  spread  devastation,  ruin 
and  death  througli  the  land,  a  few  might  escape  and  flee  to  the  most  distant  wilds,  saj 
beyond  the  Rocky  Mounlains.  We  shall  select,  for  illustration  of  our  principles,  a 
few  individuals,  who  will  illustrate  this  state  of  nature,  as  well  as  many  thousands. 
A  community  or  a  nation,  is  but  a  family  on  a  larger  scale.  Suppose,  then.  A,  B,  C, 
D,  and  E,  aiter  having  lived  some  two  or  three  years,  unknown  lo  each  otlier,  in  the 
wilds,  should  at  som.e  time  meel.  A,  in  making  his  escape,  had  snatched  a  bag  of 
dollars;  B  had  taken  his  Vv'ife  ;  C,  his  rifle  :  D,  his  children  \  and  E  had  notliing  but 
himself.  .  They  are  about  to  form  a  social  compact.  They  have  brought  some  of  tlie 
old  ideas  vvith  them,  from  their  former  society.  A  is  an  old  Virginian,  and  begins  the 
discussion.  He  says,  "  Gentlemen,  Government  is.chiefly  for  tke  ■protection  oj  proper- 
ty, and  every  man  ought  to  have  influence  according  to  his  property.  I,  therelore,  con- 
tend for  an  influence,  proportioned  to  ray  wealth.  I  know,  that  we  have  much  need 
of  wealth,  in  forming  a  comfortable  settlement  here,  and  man}^  calls  will  be  made  up- 
on me."  B  asks  him,  of  what  use  Vvas  his  bag  of  dollars  to  him  since  his  arrival  in 
the  wilderness.''  Had  he  spent  a  dollar  since  he  left  the  old  society  ?  Not  one.  "  Soci- 
ety, Sir,  continues  he,  is  necessary  to  give  use  and  importance  to  money;  and  you  are 
as  much  indebted  to  us,  for  giving  you  an  opportunity  to  spend  your  money,  to  obtain 
our  aids,  as  we  can  be  to  you  for  such  sums  as  we  may  call  upon  you  for.  Besides.  Sir, 
without  our  society  and  assistance,  you  could  not  prouct  your  money.  We  will  aflbrd 
you,  not  only  the  means  of  enjoying,  but  of  protecting  your  wealth.  I  claim,  Sir, 
twice  as  much  influence  in  society  as  you;  because.  Sir,  I  have  a  wile.  She  has  her 
interests  and  her  wishes,  as  well  as  you  or  me."  C  rejoins  :  "  I  cannot,  gentlemen, 
agree,  that  either  of  you  shall  have  mortj  power  in  our  new  Government,  than  my- 
self. My  R'fle,  Sir,  is  of  as  much  use,  and  my  skill  to  iise  it,  as  either  of  your  pos- 
sessions. iNay,  Sir,  the  day  may  be  to-morrow,  that  the  safety  of  our  persons,  and  of 
our  community,  may  depend  upon  me;  and  I  think,  that  my  claims,  because  founded 
upon  the  preservation  of  our  very  existence,  are  stronger  than  th(  se  of  any  f  ther  per- 
son, and  entitle  me,  more  than  any  other  man,  to  greater  political  power.  You  reccl- 
lect,  Sir,  that  the  great  men  of  the  Old  World,  were  all  Warriors  and  Military  Chief- 
tains. As  for  my  neighbour  B,  claiming  infiuence  for  his  wife,  it  is  absnrd !  Has  she 
any  sepTrate  inierest  from  his?  Has  she  not  identified  her  interests  with  his  ?  Can  she 
have  any  will,  affecting  the  community,  but  tlirough  hiai?  Is  not  she  his  property,  by 
the  marriage  compact.'" 

D  rises.  My  claims,  gentlemen,  are  paramount  to  all  others.  I  have  many  chil- 
dren. They  are,  Sir,  the  hope  of  every  community.  I  claim  an  infli;ence  in  Gov- 
ernment, proportionate  to  my  interest  in  it,  and  to  the  services  which  I  n.ay  yet  ren- 
der it.  I  have  no  money,  no  rifle,  it  is  true  ;  but  I  hive  seven  sens  and  daughters 
coming  forward.  They  will  be  able  yet.  Sir,  to  create  wealth,  and  to  defend  the  com- 
munity. 1  insist  upon  it,  gentlemen,  if  an}^  man  in  this  community  has  a  right  to  any 
more  than  his  own  voice,  than  his  o\vtl  personal  weight;  I  have  seven  good  reasons 
to  offer,  why  I  should  have  seven  times  more  than  he." 

E  says  :  "  Gentlemen,  I  have  neither  wife,  son,  daughter,  rifle,  nor  a  single  dollar. 
I  am  stripped  of  all  extrinsic  claims  for  superior  weight  in  the  Government.  But, 

16 


122 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Sir,  I  am  not  without  other  claims.  I  have  learned  to  speak  two  or  three  of  the  In- 
dian languages,  since  1  became  an  inhabitant  of  these  wilds.  And,  Sir,  should  any 
misunderstandings  arise  between  us  and  them,  I  can  be  an  interpreter,  and  may  do 
more  to  prevent  war,  than  any  other  member  of  our  community.  I  claim,  then,  an 
influence,  equal  to  this  rarest  and  most  useful  endowment,  which,  Sir,  requires  so 
much  labour  and  time  to  obtain,  and  which,  when  obtained,  is  so  useful  to  society. 
But,  I  must  protest  against  D's  having  seven  votes  for  his  seven  children.  They  are 
minors,  and  under  his  control,  and  of  immature  reason.  When  they  arrive  at  man- 
hood, and  are  free  agents,  but  not  till  then,  shall  they  have  a  voice." 

A  rises :  *•  Gentlemen,  I  see  we  all  have  claims  for  various  portions  of  political 
power.  I  think  we  must  abandon  the  idea  of  forming  a  social  compact,  upon  these 
])rinciple3.  I  will  claim  only  my  single  vote,  and  my  single  personal  influence,  and 
will  yield  my  pretensions,  if  every  other  gentleman  yields  his.  I  will  agree,  that  we 
all  surrender  ourselves,  our  property,  our  talents,  and  our  iikiW,  jrro  bo7w  publico ;  that 
each  man  shall  have  his  own  personal  influence,  and  in  all  contributions  for  the  pub- 
lic service,  each  man  shall  contribute  in  his  own  way,  according  to  his  respective 
ability." 

Mr.  Chairman  :  Here  we  have  in  miniature  something  analagous  to  this  state  of  na- 
ture, of  whicii  we  have  so  often  heard.  And  here  we  have  the  only  true  philosophy 
of  the  social  compact.  In  this  compact.  Sir,  as  I  xmderstand  it,  every  man  surrenders 
himself  to  the  whole  communit}^,  and  the  whole  community  to  him.  We  have  no 
occasion  to  travel  so  far  South,  as  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  who  penetrated 
those  regions  until  he  saw  a  lohite  devil.  Nor  need  we  go  so  far  Korth  with  the  gen- 
tleman from  Orange,  who  found  a  nation  composed  entirely  of  v:Gmen.  He  seemed 
greatly  concerned  for  the  political  rights  of  such  a  nation.  But,  Sir,  he  need  not 
have  troubled  himself  much  on  this  account,  for  such  a  nation  could  not  continue  for 
more  than  five  hundred  years. 

While,  Sir,  I  am  on  the  subject  of  such  a  state  of  nature,  or  viewing  man  as  com- 
ing into  society,  may  I  not  take  occasion  to  observe,  that  man  exhibits  himself  as  pos- 
sessing the  rigiit  of  suffrage,  anterior  to  his  coming  into  the  social  compact.  It  is  not 
a  right  derived  from,  or  conferred  by,  society;  for  it  is  a  right  which  belongs  to  him 
as  a  man.  Society  )nay  divest  him  of  it,  but  they  cannot  confer  it.  But  what  is  this 
right.''  It  is  that  of  thinking,  willing  and  expressing  his  will.  A  vote  is  neither  more 
nor  less  than  the  ex[)ression  of  a  person's  will.  God  has  given  to  man  the  power  of 
thinking,  willing  and  speaking  his  will,  and  no  man  ever  did  as  a  free  agent  enter  into 
any  society  without  willing  it.  And,  we  may  add,  no  men  could  form  a  social  compact,  , 
without  first  exercising  what  we  must  c'all  tlie  Right  of  Sufli-age.  It  is  a  right  natural 
and  undcrived,  to  the  exercise  of  which,  every  man  by  nature  has  as  good  a  reason  as 
another.    But  this  is  only  b}^  the  way. 

Having  now  glanced  at  this  state  of  nature,  and  the  meaning  of  the  social  compact, 
wliicli  in  my  desultory  and  extemporaneous  way  I  have  done  without  much  method, 
I  would  approach  the  great  question,  now  pending  before  us:  Remarking,  however, 
that  so  soon  as  we  depart  from  the  doctrine,  contained  in  the  three  first  articles  of  the 
Bill  of  Rights,  we  abandon  the  radical  principles  of  our  Government,  not  only  of  the 
State  of  Virginia,  but  of  every  other  State  of  the  Union.  [Here  Mr.  C.  read  and 
commented  on  the  three  first  articles.]  If  the  amendment  should  succeed,  I  shall 
consider  these  principles  abandoned.  A  new  principle  will  be  sanctioned ;  the  very 
principle  on  which  the  aristocracies  and  monarchies  of  the  old  v/orld  have  been  founded. 
Give  men  political  power  according  to  their  w^ealth,  and  soon  we  shall  have  a  legal- 
ized oligarchy ;  then  come  the  thirty  Tyrants;  then  follow  the  Quin  decemviri;  then 
the  decemviri ;  then  the  triumvirate ;  and  last  of  all,  comes  Julius  Cajsar.  Gentle- 
men talk  of  the  docking  of  entails,  and  the  laws  of  Parcenary  ;  but  a  feeble  resistance 
will  these  arrangements  present  to  a  reigning  oligarchy.  Men  love  power,  and  in 
proportion  as  they  possess  it,  does  that  love  increase. 

This  appears  to  me  a  controversy  merely  about  povv^er.  One  party  speak  as  though 
they  possessed  it,  and  had  it  to  bestow.  Another  contends  for  it  as  their  right.  It  is 
not  with  me  a  struggle  for  power ;  it  is  for  right,  for  principles,  for  justice.  I  do  not 
think  that  in  order  to  secure  my  comfort,  happiness,  or  prosperity,  it  is  necessary  to 
invade  the  peace,  comfort,  or  prosperity  of  any  man.  That  I  go  for  principles  and  not 
for  power  7>er  se,  I  v/ill  now  shew.  And  in  shewing  this,  I  will  shew  how  unreason- 
able it  is,  for  the  opponents  of  reform  to  ask  us  for  a  guarantee  against  oppression. 
The  power  will  be  vested  in  the  very  hands  of  those  who  ought  to  hold  it  as  umpires  be- 
tween the  rival  interests  of  the  east  and  the  west.  We  shall  take  the  present  number 
of  Representatives  for  the  data.  That  number  is  two  hundred  and  fourteen  :  Of  these, 
the  forty -five  counties  and  four  towns  on  tide- water,  have  at  present  ninety-four  repre- 
sentatives :  on  the  white  population  basis,  they  would  have  only  seventy -two  and  two- 
tenths  representatives:  That  is,  according  to  the  Census  of  1820;  which  will  as  cor- 
rectly demonstrate  the  principle,  as  any  document  we  could  obtain.  The  country 
west  of  the  Alleghany,  containing  thirty-three  counties,  has  at  present  sixty-six  re- 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


123 


presentatires.  On  the  wliite  population  basis,  that  district  of  country  would  have  only 
sixty-one  and  four-tenths.  We  should  tJien  lose  four  and  six-tenths  representatives. 
Thus  the  nine  Senatorial  Distiicts  on  tide-water  would  lose  twenty-two  representa- 
tives, and  we  nearly  five.  In  all,  these  two  Districts  would  lose  nearly  twenty-seven 
representatives.  Now,  the  question  is,  what  sections  of  the  State  would  gain  thh 
power.  We  lose,  but  who  gains  ?  I  answer,  the  twentv  counties  maliing  the  six  Sena- 
torial Districts  east  of  and  along  the  base  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  would  gain  nearly  twelve, 
representatives,  and  in  this  District,  tliere  are  no  less  than  13'd,'ili:i  slaves.  The  re- 
maining fitl;een  representatives  would  be  gained  by  the  seven  counties,  or  three  Sena- 
torial Districts  in  the  Valley  beyond  the  Ridge,  having  •23.963  slaves.  Thus,  the 
power  lost  in  the  counties  on  tide-water  and  west  of  the  Alleghany  would  be  deposit- 
ed in  that  part  of  the  State,  which,  from  its  central  position  and  from  its  dense  slave 
population,  would  be  the  saifest  deposit  which  the  fears  of  the  slave-holders  could  de- 
vise, and  wliich  would  aiford  to  them  the  strongest  and  best  guarantee  against  those 
encroachments  of  the  non-slave-holders  which  Ihe  evil-boding  imaginations  of  some 
gentlemen  have  conjured  up.  Vv^e  are  not,  then,  Mr.  Chairman,  contending  for  pow- 
er for  ourselves,  but  for  principles,  which,  let  them  operate  as  they  may,  we  believe, 
cannot  fail  to  benefit  the  whole  State,  by  distributing  power  where  it  ought  to  be,  and 
by  divesting  our  Government  of  those  odious  aristocratic  features,  which  have  caused 
and  are  daily  causing  the  sceptre  to  depart  from  Virginia.  So  repuonant  are  many 
features  in  our  Government  to  the  Republican  feelings  which  prevail  in  other  States 
in  this  Union,  that  a  majorit}'- of  our  own  freeholders  cannot  approve  them;  and  if 
they  cannot  approve  them,  how  can  we  suppose  that  citizens  from  other  States  can  be 
induced  to  locate  themselves  amongst  us.' 

The  statistical  documents  submitted,  and  the  argument  deduced  therefrom,  further 
prove  the  fallacy  of  the  hypothesis  upon  which  the  gentleman  from  Hanover,  based 
the  greater  part  of  his  remarks.  It  shews  these  to  have  been  as  groundless  as  tliat 
other  assumption  of  liis  :  that  we  were  goino-  to  lose,  or  in  danger  of  losing,  the  1-llth 
part  of  our  power  in  the  Federal  Government,  if  the  doctrine  of  making  three  white 
men  out  of  five  negroes,  or  of  puttino-  Jire  souls  into  three  bodies,  should  cease  to  be 
the  popular  practice  in  Virginia.  He  did  not  tell  us,  indeed,  why  Virginia  gave  up 
.2-5ths  of  her  slave  population  to  the  Union  ;  in  this  she  erred,  unless  she  intended  to 
give  up  the  other  3-5tlis  to  her  own  white  population. 

But  that  I  may  not  too  far  impose  upon  the  time  or  patience  of  the  Committee,  I 
shall  only  now  call  your  attention.  Sir,  to  one  or  two  other  items. 

I  have  been  sorry,  very  sorry,  Sir,  to  observe  in  sundry  gentlehaen  on  this  floor,  a 
disposition  to  treat  us  as  aliens,  or  as  persons,  v\-ho  have  no  common  interest  witli  the 
people  of  the  east.  We  have  given  them  no  reason  to  suspect  our  want  of  fellow- 
feeling,  or  of  common  interest.  Let  gentlemen  but  reflect  upon  the  circumstances 
of  this  State  in  the  year  1814.  When  all  the  militia  east  of  the  Blue  Ridge  were 
employed,  or  chiefly  employed  in  patrolling  the  counties  on  the  seaboard,  and  gene- 
rally east  of  the  Ridge,  in  order  to  preserve  that  property  for  which  a  guarantee  is 
now  demanded  :  I  say,  when  your  militia,  Mr.  Chairman,  were  all  needed  to  prevent 
insurrections  amongst  your  own  discontented  population,  who  was  it  that  fled  to  your 
succour  and  protection  from  an  invading  enemy,  who  were  disposed  to  harrass  your 
seaboard,  and  to  augment  the  discontents  of  your  slaves  r  The  Valley  and  the  west 
volunteered  their  aid.  Yes,  Sir,  the  single  county  of  Shenandoah  gave  you  twelve 
hundred  men  to  fight  your  battles,  or  rather,  the  battles  of  their  own  State.  They 
made  a  common  cause  with  you.  And.  Sir,  the  bones  of  many  a  gallant  and  brave 
citizen  of  the  west,  lie  in  the  sands  of  Norfolk.  Men,  too,  who  had  no  suffrage,  no 
representation  in  your  Government,  sacrificed  not  their  propert}^  t^i^ly?  but  their  lives 
also,  in  your  defence.  In  one  company.  Sir,  consisting  of  seventy -four  persons,  who 
marched  from  Culpeper  Court-house,  but  two  had  the  right  of  sutrrage  I  Yet  these 
men  gave  not  sufiicient  evidence  of  common  interest  with,  nor  common  attachment 
to,  the  community  !  !  !  Yes,  Sir,  from  the  very  shores  of  the  Ohio,  from  my  own 
county  of  Brooke,  they  marched  to  your  succour,  and  hazarded  their  all,  their  eartlily 
all,  in  defence  of  that  very  country,  and  that  very  Government,  wliich  treated  many 
of  them  as  aliens  in  the  land  of  their  nativity. 

We  have  been  told  that  neai-ly  3-4ths  of  the  tax  has  been  paid  by  the  counties  east 
of  the  Blue  Ridge.  But  these  o-entlemen  tell  us  nothincp  about  who  fight  the  battles 
of  the  country.  But,  Sir.  tlie  disproportion  between  the  east  and  the  west,  in  the 
tax-paying  department,  will  every  day  diminish.  As  the  west  increases  in  population 
and  improvement,  its  ability  to  pay  will  increase,  and  its  property  will  increase  in 
value. 

It  were  endless.  Sir,  to  notice  the  many  objections  made  against  the  surrender  of 
power,  or  rather,  the  arguments  offered,  to  retain  a  power  already  assumed  and  pos- 
sessed. I  will  only  remark,  that  it  is  said,  that  if  the  2chite  basis  should  obtain,  there 
will  be  endless  discontentment  among  many  of  the  citizens  of  this  Commonwealth. 
But,  Sir,  if  the  black  basis,  or  the  moyiey  basis,  as  it  should  be  called,  should  obtain, 


124 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


would  it  diminish,  or  terminate  discontentment  or  complaint  ?  No,  Sir  ;  in  that  case, 
a  majority,  a  large  majority  of  the  freeholders,  would  be  irreconcileably  discontented. 
And,  Su',  if  d.sc;onlents,  niui-murs  and  conipiauits  must,  on  any  hypothesis,  exist,  the 
question  is,  whether  in  policy  and  in  justice,  they  had  not  better  be  confined  to  the 
minority,  than  spread  through  a  niajcnty  of  the  citizens  ot  this  Commonwealth  ? 
And  which  party  would  have  the  best  reason  to  be  discontented,  let  the  umpires 
throughout  all  Kej  ublics  decide. 

But,  Sir,  in  the  last  place,  I  must  say  that  the  policy  of  those  gentlemen  who  advo- 
cate the  money  basis,  appears  to  me,  not  only  an  anti-republ.cau,  but  a  shoit-sighted 
policy.    That  policy  whicli  augments  the  power  of  wealth,  which  tends  to  make  the 
rich  man  richer,  and  the  poor  man  poorer,  is  the  worst  policy  for  such  a  community 
as  this  is,  and  must  be,  at  least  tor  some  time  to  come.     tittle  do  the  rich  think, 
whan  char.ned  with  tiie  fascinations  of  wealth  and  power,  when  the}^  are  eager  to  se- 
cure and  augment  both,  by  Consti'.u  ional  and  LtgislatiYe  prcvisicns,  that  they  are 
fightiiig  against  their  own  oifsprmg.  and  proscribing  their  own  posterity.    And,  Sir, 
is  n;)t  posterity,  is  not  cur  children's  happiness  dearer  to  us  than  our  own Do  wer 
not  duly  see  tiiat  riches  are  ever  making  to  themselves  wings Is  not  the  great 
wheel  of  f  )rtane,  as  some  gentlemen  call  it,  eternally  revolving.     Those  at  the  sum- 
mit must  descend,  and  those  in  the  mire  must  ascend.     Wliere  are  the  noble  and 
wealthy  fauiilies  that  flourished  in  this  Comimnweaitli  some  sixty  or  seventy  years 
ago  ?    S  nne  of  their  descendants  may  yet  be  found  sustainmg  the  name,  the  talents 
and  respectability  of  tJxeir  ances.'^^ry.    Bat  how  many  of  them  have,  to  use  the  words 
of  Bonaparte,  sunk  down  into  the  Canaille      There  are  few  of  the  wealthy  now  liv- 
ing, vvh)  hive  not  their  p^or  relatives  an  J  conn.ixion3,  and  how  long,  or  rather  how 
sliort  a  time,  will  it  be,  till  the  decendants  of  most  of  us  will  have  merged  themselves 
a.nongst  the  humble  poor  and  the  obscure    My  views  of  men,  and  of  the  revolutions 
in  human  atfau's,  make  me  a  republican.    My  love  for  my  own  posterity  would  prevent 
me  frOiU  voting  for  the  ainendoieat,  i£  1  had  no  other  consideration  to  govern  ine.  If 
1  had  the  v/ealth  of  Stephen  Girard,  I  could  not,  ieeling  as  I  do,  viewing  human  af- 
fah's  as  I  do,  looking  back  into  history,  or  forward  into  lu'.urity,  1  could  not  consent  to 
bu:lJ  up  an  arisLocracy,  because  I  should  be  erecting  embankments  and  bulwarks 
against  those  dearer  to  me  than  myself.    I  do"  most  s  ncerely  wish  that  gentlemen 
would  look  a  little  before  them,  anil  remember  the  lot  of  man,  lest  they  should,  in  at^ 
temp  ing  to  secure  themselves  irom  i mag  nary  evils,  lay  the  foundation  of  real  and  last- 
ing ones.    To  conclude,  Sir,  the  policy  of  those  gentlemen  who  are  securing,  or  at- 
tempting to  secure  to  themselves  exclusive  privileges,  and  to  defend  themselves  from 
an  im?.ginary  evil,  reminds  me  of  a  character  which  Dr.  Johnson  depicts  in  one  of 
the  pipers  in  liis  Rambler.     A  young  gentleman  much  afiaid  of  thieves  and  robbers 
brealdng  into  his  roim  at  night,  became  distrustful  of  ail  the  locks  and  keys  in  com- 
mon use,  as  guarantees  of  his  person  and  property-.    He  put  his  ingenuity  to  work,  to 
invent  a  new  lock  and  key,  which  could  not  be  violated.    iHe  succeedtd  to  liis  wish- 
es.   He  had  his  room  fortified  to  quiet  all  his  fears.    He  one  day  called  in  a  friend  to 
exhibit  to  him  his  ingenuity.    It  required  some  two  or  three  minutes  to  lock  and  un- 
loc'i  the  d  >or.    The  g3ntleman  after  admiring  and  commending  his  ingenuity,  re- 
marked, why,  sir,  said  he,  this  is  certainly  a  great  defence  against  thieves  and  rob- 
bers, but  it  is  so  difficult  to  unlock,  I  should  fear  that  if  the  house  were  to  take  fire, 
you  might  be iconsumed  before  you  could  open  the  door  and  escape.    I  declare,  sir, 
said  the  young  gentleman,  I  never  thought  of  that.    Hereafter  I  will  sleep  with  my 
door,  not  only  unlocked,  but  half  open. 

Mr.  Scott  of  Fauquier,  rose  to  ask  for  the  reading  of  the  question  before  the  Con- 
•  vention  ;  which  being  done,  he  proposed  to  amend  the  amendment  by  adding,  "  and 
in  the  Senate,  on  white  population  exclusively."    (The  effect  of  this  proposition  would 
be,  to  apportion  the  House  of  Delegates,  by  population  and  taxation  combined-,  and 
the  Senate  by  white  population  exclusively.) 

Mr.  ScoTT,  rose  and  addressed  the  Committee  as  follows : 

Mr.  Chairman  :  Labouring  under  a  disease  which  not  only  emaciates  the  frame,  but 
clouds  the  intellect,  Vv^ere  It")  consult  my  own  interest  apart  from  that  which  I  have 
in  common  with  the  inhabitants  of  that  portion  of  the  State  which  1  have  the  honor 
in  part  to  represent,  I  should  abstain  from  troubling  the  Committee  with  any  remarks 
on  the  question  now  before  it.  But,  Sir,  I  have  a  duty  to  perform  which  compels  me 
to  make  the  effort,  however  unsuccessful  it  may  prove.  Mr.  Chairman,  the  people 
whom  I  in  part  represent,  have  not  been  in  the  habit  of  singing  hosannas  to  the  pre- 
sent Constitution.  They  think  it  has  def  cts,  and  that  they  have  suffereci  evils  under 
its  operation.  I  have  participated  in  these  sentiments."  To  rem.edy  these  evils  we 
have  united  with  our  brethren  of  the  west  to  bring  about  this  Convention.  But  I  fear 
they  will  prove  Roman  allies,  and  we  shall  onlyliave  tlie  privilege  of  changing  our 
masters.  • 

Mr.  Chairman  :  After  the  frost-work  of  mere  abstractions,  constructed  by  the  gen- 
tlemen on  the  other  side,  had  melted  before  the  rays  of  the  genius  of  the  gentleman 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


125 


from  Northampton,  the  member  from  Ohio  has  endeavoured  to  build  it  up  again,  with 
what  success  1  leave  the  Committee  to  judge.  When  I  set  about  a  task,  Sir,  my  first 
enquiry  is,  what  is  the  end  to  be  accomphshed  ?  Having  ascertained«this,  I  then  look 
about  for  tiie  means  which  are  at  hand.  The  erd  which  Vv^e  all  have  in  view,  is  to  se- 
cure the  blessings  of  hberty  to  the  people  of  Virginia,  and  their  posterity  ;  the  means 
by  which  we  propose  to  accomplish  it,  is  to  recommend  to  tliem  a  frame  of  Govern- 
ment best  calculated  to  attain  that  end.  In  constructing  this  Government,  we  are 
not  necessarily  driven  back  to  the  natural  rights  of  man.  If  we  are  satisfied  that  the 
safety  of  tlie  whole  community  requires,  that  the  powers  of  Government  should  be 
placed  in  the  hands  of  a  minority,  we  are  bound  to  recommend  it  to  the  people  to  place 
them  there.  And  if  they  give  it  their  sanction,  the  right  of  the  minority  is  as  legiti- 
mate as  the  majoris  contended  for  by  gentlemen  on  the  other  side.  All  the  ques- 
tions which  can  arise  are  mere  questions  of  the  fitness  of  means  to  an- end.  I  would 
not  be  understood  as  discarding  all  principle.  On  the  contrary  it  will' be  found  that  I 
agree  with  the  gentlemen  who  are  so  very  fond  of  theory  in  the  principles  which  1 
shall  take  as  my  guide,  although  I  shall  apply  them  differently.  The  difference  be- 
tween tiiese  gentlemen,  and  myself,  is  this:  tiiey  form  a  garment  according-  to  their 
ideas  of  exact  symmetry  without  enquiring  whether,  or  not,  it  will  fit  the  person  \A\o 
is  to  wear  it.  I  propose  to  take  his  measure  before  I  apply  the  shears  to  the  cloth. 
They  profoundly  skilled  in  the  healing  art, compound  a  medicine,  containing  the  quint- 
essence of  the  Materia  Medica,  and  administer  it  in  all  cases.  I  propose  to  feel  the 
pulse  of  the  patient,  and  examine  the  symptoms,  before  I  prescribe  the"  remedy. 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  already  said,  that  the  object  of  our  bbours,  is  to  secure  to  the 
people  of  Virginia,  and  their  posterit}'-,  liberty  and  safety  of  persons  and  property. 
To  effect  this,  a  certain  quantity  of  povv^er  must  be  called  into  action.    The  first  re- 
flection which  strikes  us,  is,  that  pov.'er  entrusted  to  human  agents,  is  liable  to  abuse. 
To  guard  against  this  abuse,  constitutes  the  chief  difficulty  in  framing  a  Government. 
The  first  expedient  resorted  to,  is  to  call  into  action  no  more  than  is  necessary  to  at- 
tain the  end.    Too  much  power  is  liable  to  run  into  abuse  from  its  mere  excess. 
The  next  expedient  is  not  to  confide  all  to  the  same  hands :  hence  the  separation  of 
the  Legislative,  Executive,  and  Judicial  Departments.    But  this  separation  has  not  in 
practice  been  found  sufficient.    It  is  not  enough  to  check  power  by  power.  Some 
further  security  has  been  found  necessary.    The  best  reflection  which  1  have  been 
able  to  give  to  the  subject,  has  brought  me  to  adopt  this  maxim,  "  as  far  as  practicable, 
to  deposit  power  in  the  hands  of  those  only  whose  interest  it  is  not  to  abuse  it."  If 
we  look  around  us  into  the  ordinary  affairs  of  men,  we  shall  find  that  interest  is  the 
great  spring  of  action.    V^hat  is  it  that  makes  agriculture  flourish?  What  is  it  that 
builds  your  cities,  and  makes  commerce  spread  her  wings      What  inspires  the  poet 
and  nerves  the  soldier's  arm      It  is  love  of  wealth,  fame,  and  distinction.    In  a  word, 
it  is  self-love.    I  have  not  much  experience  in  legislation,  but  I  appeal  to  gentlemen 
here  who  are  experienced  both  in  Federal  and  State  legislation,  wiiether  they  are  ever 
-so  sure  of  a  vote  as  v/hen  they  appeal  to  the  interests  of  those  whose  vote  they  want. 
It  would  be  out  of  order,  Sir,  to  speak  of  the  members  of  this  House  :  One  remark, 
however,  I  take  leave  to  m^ake.    Although  so  much  devotion  is  shewn  to  principles, 
the  principles  of  gentlemen  do  quadrate  most  marvellously  with  the  interests  of  their 
constituents.    I  do  not  mean-  to  cast  imputations  on  gentlemen.    I  do  not  mean  to 
question  the  sincerity  of  their  attachment  to  principle.    But  when  I  see  honourable 
and  intelligent  m;n,  with  all  their  devotion  to  principle,  imconsciously  influenced  by 
interest,  I  set  an  higher  value  on  the  security  which  interest  gives  against  the  abuse 
of  power.    The  guarantee  of  interest  constitutes  the  chief  difference  between  Repub- 
lican, and  Aristocratic,  or  Monarchical  Governments.    The  responsibility  of  public 
agents,  resolves  itself  into  this  principle.    By  causing  the  law-maker  to  mingle  with 
the  people,  and  to  be  sul^ject  to  the  laws  whicli  he  has  enacted,  you  make  it  his  inter- 
est to  enact  just  laws.    By  subjecting  him  to  re-election  at  short  intervals,  you  make 
it  his  interest  to  consult  the  v/elfare  of  his  constituents  in  order  that  he  may  be  re- 
elected.   Sir,  I  thhik  I  can  boast  of  as  many  attached  and  disinterested  friends  as  any 
gentleman  here,  but  my  experience  teaches  me,  that  I  am  never  so  sure  of  the  good 
offices  of  another,  as  when  I  make  it  his  interest  to  serve  me.    There  are  it  is  true, 
many  bright  exceptions  to  the  influence  of  the  selfish  principle.    The  annals  of  man- 
kind occasionally  set  before  us  examples  of  self-sacrifice  on  the  altars  of  patriotism 
and  virtue,  but  they  are  few  when  compared  with  the  sacrifices  of  patriotism  and  vir- 
tue on  the  altars  of  ambition  and  avarice  ;  and  serve  by  their  splendour,  to  render  more 
visible,  the  dark  shades  of  the  human  character.    Here  then  we  have  a  great  principle 
founded  in  human  nature,  which  will  serve  as  a  touchstone  for  every  grant  of  power 
that  we  propose  to  make.    Let  us  bring  the  question  before  the  Committee,  to  this 
test.    What  will  be  the  effect  of  the  principle  reported  b}^  the  Legislative  Committee  ^ 
It  will  give  to  the  people  v/est  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  if  not  immediately,  in  a  very  short 
time,  a  majority  in  the  Legislature.    No  gentleman  has  questioned  this,  but  my  friend 
from  Frederick.    He  seems  to  think  that  the  majority  of  whites  will  remain,  as  it  now 


126 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


is,  east  of  the  Ridge.  If  we  look  to  the  documents  furnished  by  the  Auditor,  we  shall 
find  that  tlie  increase  of  whites  west  of  the  Ridge,  greatly  exceeds  that  on  the  east ; 
and  if  it  should%;ontinue  in  the  same  proportion,  a  majority  will,  in  a  very  short  time, 
be  found  west  of  the  Ridge.  If  we  look  at  tlie  face  of  the  country,  we  shall  come 
to  the  same  conclusion.  A  .great  proportion  of  the  land  below  the  head  of  tide-water, 
is  worn  and  exhausted.  That  between  tide- water  and  the  Ridge,  is  in  a  similar  con- 
dition, except  a  strip  bordering  on  the  mountain.  This  is  capable  of  regeneration, 
and  will  sustain  an  increased  population.  It  is  of  less  extent  than  what  is  called 
the  Limestone  Valley,  which,  from  the  fertility  of  its  soil,  is  capable  of  sustaining  a 
dense  population.  The  country  east  of  the  Ridge,  has  no  new  lands  to  settle.  There 
is  no  room  for  a  great  increase  of  population.  A  large  portion  of  fertile  land  west  of 
the  Alleghany  is  yet  unsettled ;  and  when  it  is  brought  into  cultivation  by  the  influ- 
ence of  the  Chesapeake  and  Ohio  canal,  it  must  give  a  vast  accession  to  tlie  popula- 
tion of  that  region.  I  will  ask  the  gentleman,  under  whose  patronage  that  work  is 
progressing,  whether  he  does  not  expect  it  will  succeed  ?  The  population  which  this 
will  add  to  the  west,  must  be  exclusively  white.  From  tlie  vicinity  of  the  country 
through  which  it  passes  to  Pennsylvania,  slaves  cannot  be  held  there.  But,  Sir,  it  is 
unnecessary  to  pursue  this  argument  farther.  We  have  it  on  the  authority  of  the 
gentleman  from  Brooke,  (and  no  man  is  better  acquainted  with  the  situation  and  re- 
sources of  that  country,)  that  in  thirty  years  a  majority  of  the  white  population 
of  the  State  will  be  found  west  of  the  Alleghany.  1  feel,  therefore,  warranted  in  as- 
suming as  the  basis  of  my  argument,  that  the  country  west  of  the  Ridge,  does  npw^ 
or  soon  will  contain  a  majority  of  the  white  population  of  the  State. 

Let  us  now  enquire  whether  the  people  of  that  region  can  give  the  security  we 
require  against  the  abuse  of  the  power  which  the  Legislative  Committee  proposes  to 
give  to  them.    I  agree  with  the  gentlemen  on  the  other  side,  that  as  a  general  rule, 
a  majority  ought  to  govern.    A  majority  of  persons  will  prima  facie,  comprise  a  ma- 
jority of  interests.    But  this  rule  is  certainly  liable  to  exceptions.    The  power  of  the 
majority  must  have  limits.    We  all  propose  to  Mmil  it  by  denying,  to  the  Legislature 
the  power  of  passing  ex  post  facto  laws,  suspending  the  privilege  of  the  writ  of 
habeas  corpus,  &c.    The  only  question  is,  what  limitations  shall  we  impose  ?    I  an- 
swer, all  such  as  are  necessary  to  protect  the  rights  and- interests  of  the  governed..^ 
It  is  for  me  to  shew  that  the  limitation,  which  I  propose,  is  necessary  for  our  security. 
To  that  end,  let  us  take  a  survey  of  the  points  of  difference  between  the  portions  of 
the  State,  lying  east  and  west  of  the  Ridge.    The  first  point  of  diiference  wliich 
strikes  us,  is  the  erroneous  disproportion  of  the  taxes  paid  by  the  two  regions.    I  will 
not  dwell  on  this  part  of  the  subject,  after  the  luminous  exposition  given  by  the  gen- 
tleman from  Hanover.    The  next  point  of  difference,  is  in  the  character  of  the  po- 
pulation.   Eight-ninths  of  the  slaves  are  found  east  of  the  Ridge.     In  all  laws  rela- 
ting to  this  species  of  property,  the  people  west  of  the  Ridge  are  interested  to  the  ex- 
tent of  one-ninth  only.    But  the  gentleman  from  Frederick  thinks  that  this  property 
will  not  be  in  danger,  because  the  slave-holders  west  of  the  Ridge,  when  added  to 
those  of  the  east,  will  give  a  majority.    Suppose  it  is  so.    Why,  I  ask,  should  the 
people  below  the  mountain,  transfer  all  the  power  necessary  for  their  protection,  to 
tlie  people  above      This  may  be  very  agreeable  to  those  who  kindly  offer  to  become 
our  guardians.    But  the  people  whom  I  represent  have  a  notion,  (it  may  be  a  very 
unphilosophical  one.)  that  their  affairs  will  be  never  the  worse  managed,  because  they 
have  a  hand  in  the  management  of  them.    But,  Sir,  in  that  part  of  the  Valley  to  . 
which  we  are  invited  to  look  for  protection,  the  slaves  are  to  the  v/hites  as  one  to  four. 
In  the  counties  more  particularly  alluded  to  by  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  they 
are  as  one  to  three.    The  proportion  which  the  slave-holders  bear  to  the  non-slave- 
holders, cannot  be  greater,  and  may  be,  and  probably  is  less.    It  cannot  be  greater,: 
because  if  the  slaves  be  divided,  so  that  no  person  shall  hold  more  than  one,  there 
will  be  three  who  hold  none,  for  one  who  holds  one  ;  arid  v/hen  the  war  between  the 
non-slave-holders  and  the  slave-holders  shall  be  waged,  the  slave-holders  will  be  out-  ' 
voted  at  the  polls.    So  far  from  protecting  us,  they  will  be  unable  to  protect  them- 
selves.   We  cannot  aid  them,  for  they  will  have  tied  our  hands.    I  ask  the  gentlemen 
representing  that  part  of  tlie  State  to  which  I  belong,  and  which  is  deeply  interested 
in  this  question,  whether  they  are  willing  to  accept  of  such  a  security  as  this  ?  Would 
they  not  rather  have  the  means  of  protection  in  their  own  hands  ?    Will  they  not 
prefer  the  guarantee  which  I  demand  ?    With  that  security,  we  shall  not  want  the 
lock  of  the  gentleman  from  Ohio.    I  can  trust  my  gold  to  a  man  whose  interest  it  is 
to  restore  it  to  me. 

There  is  another  interest  connected  with  this  branch  of  the  subject,  Avhich  deserves 
our  serious  attention.  Of  the  tv/enty-tv/o  members  to  whicli  this  State  is  entitled  in 
the  House  of  Representatives  of  the  United  States,  seven  represent  the  slave  popu- 
lation. Now,  if  we  establish  it  as  a  principle  that  the  white  basis  is  the  true  one  for 
apportioning  representation  in  the  State  Legislature,  will  it  not  follow  that  as  between 
ourselves,  it  is  also  the  true  basis  for  apportioning  members  of  Congress  ?    And,  if 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


127 


so,  the  seven  members  purchased,  I  may  say,  by  the  slave-holder,  will  be  seized  upon 
as  common  property,  and  divided  between  the  east  and  the  west.  I  ask  gentlemen 
of  the  east,  and  more  especially  of  the  middle  region,  whether  they  are  prepared  for 
this  ? 

And  if  not,  what  do  they  propose  to  do  ?  Insert  an  article  in  the  Constitution  for- 
biddincv  it  ?  Gentlemen  from  the  west  may  say  we  will  promjise  you  not  to  take  from 
you  the  representation  in  Congress  which  your  slaves  give  you.  I  know  not  whe- 
ther they  will  be  willing  to  do  this.  Some  gentlemen  may  think  that  this  is  a  com- 
mon fund,  and  may  have  this  very  thing  in  view,  as  a  consequence  of  the  measures 
they  are  now  pursuing.  If  such  are  their  views,  they  will  no  doubt  avow  them. 
But  suppose  such  an  article  to  be  inserted  in  the  Constitution,  I  doubt  very  much  its 
efficacy.  I  will  not  undertake  to  say  that  it  will  not  be  efficacious.  But  I  will' say 
that  reasons  may  be  found  strong  enough  for  those  whose  inclinations  and  interest 
lead  them  to  disregard  it.  Less  plausible  reasons  have  in  practice  been  found  suffi- 
cient to  justify  violations  of  wliat  we  consider  the  spirit,  if  not  the  letter  of  the  Con- 
stitution of  the  United  States. 

The  power  to  prescribe  the  tim.es,  places  and  manner  of  electing  members  of  the 
House  of  Representatives,  is,  by  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  given  to  the 
State  Legislatures,  subject  to  the  control  of  Congress.  Not  to  the  people  of  the 
States  assembled  in  Convention.  When  we  have  constituted  a  State  Legislature, 
this  pov/er,  it  may  be  contended,  is  not  conferred  by  us,  but  is  derived  from  a  liigher 
source,  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States.  We  have  given  it  being,  and  a  capa- 
city to  receive  this  grant  of  power,  but  the  grant  is  not  from  us,  but  another,  and  the 
extent  of  tiie  povvpr  cannot  be  regulated  by  us,  but  is  regulated  by  the  instiiinient 
which  confers  it.  The  argument  may  not  be  strong,  but  if  we  judge  from  experi- 
ence, it  will  be  found  sufficient  for  those  who  seek  power.  I  ask,  are  we  willing  to 
-put  this  interest  at  hazard  on  no  better  security  I  answer  no.  I  will  not  be  satis- 
fied with  the  bond,  I  must  have  a  surety. 

There  are  other  interests  to  protect,  and  other  abuses  of  power  to  be  guarded  against, 
of  greater  importance  than  those  to  which  I  have  called  the  attention  of  the  Commit- 
tee.   The  different  divisions  of  the  State  are  not  more  strongly  marked  by  geographi- 
cal features,  than  are  the  different  interests  of  the  people  who  inhabit  them.  The 
Committee  must  at  once  perceive,  that  I  refer  to  the  subject  of  internal  improvement. 
Those  different,  and  in  some  respects  conflicting  interests,  cannot  safely  be  confided  to 
the  people  of  an^  one  division.    The  people  below  the  head  of  tide-water  do  not  stand 
in  need  of  turnpike-roads  and  canals.    The  improvements  which  are  suited  to  the 
•  country  between  the  head  of  tide-water,  and  the  Blue  Ili-dge,  will  embrace  the  Poto- 
mac, James  River,  and  E-oanoke,  as  far  as  the  Ridge,  the  branches  of  these  streams 
which  rise  below  tJiat  range  of  mountains,  and  the  various  branches  of  the  Rappahan- 
nock.   The  scale  of  improvement  of  the  larger  streams,  suited  to  the  wants  of  the 
middle  region,  is  much  inferior  to  that  demanded  by  the  western  people  ;  they  would 
therefore,  be  but  partially  benefitted  by  the  improvements  which  the  interests  of  the 
people  of  the  middle  region,  would  lead  them  to  make.    Those  demanded  by  the  peo- 
ple of  the  Valley,  will  afford  for  the  most  part,  no  benefit  to  the  people  of  the  middle 
region,  and  little  to  those  west  of  the  Alleghany.    They  require  that  the  Chesapeake 
shall  be  united  with  the  Ohio,  the  James  lliver  with  the  Kanawha.    The  scheme  of 
the  people  of  the  Valley,  as  we  learn  from  the  sages  assembled  at  Charlottesville,  is, 
as  soon  as  the  Chesapeake  and  Ohio  canal,  shall  reach  the  mouth  of  the  Shenandoah, 
to  improve  that  river  for  two  or  three  hundred  miles,  and  when  it  shall  reach  the 
mouth  of  the  south  branch  of  the  Potomac,  to  hnprove  that  stream  for  some  one  or 
two  hundred  miles  :  and  when  all  these  improvements  shall  have  been  accomplished, 
some  small  attention  is  to  be  paid  to  the  Roanoke.    To  shew  that  the  scale  of  expen- 
diture demanded  by  the  western  people,  greatly  transcends  any  thing  that  we  of  the 
middle  region  have  any  occasion  for,  I  will  beg  leave  to  call  the  attention  of  the  Com- 
mittee to  the  project  which  was  before  the  last  Legislature.    It  proposed  to  subscribe 
.for  stock  of  the  Chesapeake  and  Ohio  Canal  Company,  to  the  amount  of  four  hun- 
dr(?d  thousand  dollars :  a  farther  sum  to  make  a  lateral  canal  to  the  town  of  Alexan- 
dria in  the  District  of  Columbia,  and  to  improve  the  navigation  of  James  river  the 
distance  of  twenty-four  miles,  in  the  county  of  Alleghany,  afan  expense  of  $260,000. 
This  would  have  been  a  mere  donation,  for  no  man  can  pretend  that  the  tolls  would 
have  been  any  equivalent  for  the  expenditure.    It  was  also  proposed  to  subscribe  the 
sum  of  .^60,000  towards  the  improvem.ent  of  the  various  branches  of  the  Rappahan- 
nock.   Unconditionally Bo,  Sir  :  whilst  the  appropriation  of  $260,000  to  be  expen- 
ded in  the  county  of  Alleghany,  was  to  be  an  unconditional  gift,  stock  of  the  Rappa- 
hannock Company  was  to  be  subscribed  for  to  the  amount  of  $60,000,  upon  condition 
that  individuals  would  subscribe  for  and  secure  the  paj^ment  of  a  like  sum.  Near 
half  a  million  was  to  be  allotted  to  the  Potomac  interest ;  $260,000  to  be  given  to  the 
county  of  Alleghany,  paying  a  tax  of  $600  ;  whilst  $60,000  only,  is  conditionally  al- 
lotted to  the  counties  of  Spottsylvania,  Stafford,  Fauquier,  Culpeper,  Orange,  and  Ma- 


128 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


dison,  which,  united,  pay  a  tax  of  more  than  ^30,000.  This  is  the  measure  proposed 
to  be  dealt  out  to  the  middle  country,  by  our  western  friends,  who  ask  us  to  place  all 
power  in  their  hands.  I  ask  gentlemen  representing  this  middle  country,  if  they  are 
willing  to  grant  the  demand.  If  we  turn  our  eyes  farther  south,  we  find  that  at  the 
instance  of  western  men,  a  scale  of  improvement  has  been  comnnenced  on  James  river, 
which  has  resulted  in  the  completion  of  twenty-nine  miles  of  canal,  near  Richmond, 
and  about  six  miles  in  the  Blue  Ridge,  which,  together,  cost  one  million  of  dollars  ; 
and  we  have  the  authority  of  the  Charlottesville  Convention,  for  saying  that  this  mo- 
ney has  been  thrown  away,  unless  another  million  is  expended,  to  connect  these  de- 
tached works.  What  her  efit  have  the  people,  living  immediately  under  the  Ridge, 
derived  from  this  expenditure None.  Worse  than  none.  When  the  law  passed' 
authorizing  this  large  expenditure,  a  pledge  was  given  them  that  no  additional  tolls 
should  be  demanded  for  the  transportation  of  their  produce,  until,  by  the  improvement 
of  the  navigation,  the  cost  of  transportation  should  be  lessened.  And  how  was  that 
pledge  redeemed  ?  By  a  repeal  of  the  lav/,  and  an  increase  of  toils  upon  their  to- 
bacco. 

Whilst  upon  tiiirty-one  miles  of  canal,  to  subserve  western  interests,  one  million  of 
dollars  have  been  almost  thrown  away,  tlie  improvement  of  the  Rappahannock  is  es- 
timated to  cost  about  twelve  hundred  dollars  a  mile,  including  the  great  falls  ;  and  it  is 
believed  that  it  can  be  accomplished  within  tlie  estimate.  That  of  the  Roanoke  has 
actually  cost  about  $1,500  a  mile,  including  the  purchase  of  a  number  of  slaves  now 
employed  upon  it." 

I  do  not  make  these  statements  to  throw  odium  on  the  scheme  for  internal  im- 
provements, but  to  shew  that  the  different  sections  of  the  -  State  have  separate  inter- 
ests, and  that  the  interests  of  one,  cannot  safely  be  confided  to  the  absolute  control  of 
another.  1  do  not  ask  you  to  give  to  the  region,  which  I  in  part  represent,  power  to 
control  any  other  ;  I  ask  you- so  to  apportion  representation  in  the  two  Houses,  as  to 
guard  and  protect  the  interests  of  all.  I  do  not  ask  you  to  give  us  power  to  do  vds- 
ckief,  but  to  avert  (wU. 

Mr.  Naylor  then  addressed  the  Chair  to  the  following  effect : 

Mr.  Chairman :  If  those  gentlemen  who  have  been  long  accustomed  to  legislative 
debates;  gentlemen  who  wer^e  well  able  to  sustain  a  distinguished  station  at  all  times 
when  thus  engaged  Jieretofore,  felt  embarrassed  in  addressing  that  Cliair  before  this 
Convention,  how  much  more  ought  1  to  feel  embarrassment  in  making  the  attempt, 
who,  I  may  say,  have  never  been  accustomed  to  debate  in  an  ordinary  Legislature. 

Yes,  Sir,  and  I  do  most  sensibly  feel  it;  and  nothing  but  the  solicitude  I  experience, 
arising  from  the  importance  of  the  question  now  to  be  decided,  which  creates  a  still 
stronger  sensation,  could  have  overcome  that  repugnance  which  might  have  deterred 
me  from  arising  to  address  this  body. 

But  I  cast  myself  with  confidence  on  its  benignity  and  indulgence,  while  I  occupy 
a  short  space  of  time,  v/hile  no  other  gentleman  seems  disposed  to  occupy  the  time  of 
the  Committee.  I  would  premise  the  few  observations  I  have  to  m.ake,  by  stating, 
that  though  conflicting  opinions  on  a  m.atter  in  controversy  may  appear  to  coincide 
with  the  interests  of  those  respectively,  who  maintain  those  opinions,  yet  they  may, 
be  held  on  each  side  v/ith  all  the  honesty,  and  sincerity  which  a  conviction  of  their 
truth  can  produce.  This.  I  believe  to  be  the  case  on  the-present  occasion.  With  this 
persuasion,  and  with  the  highest  respect  for  the  opinions  of  those  gentlemen  from 
whom  I  am  constrained  to  difier,  I  beg  leave  to  state  a  few  of  those  reasons  which 
thus  constrain  me  to  differ  from  them. 

In  attempting  to  remedy  that  glaring  defect  in  the  existing  Constitution  of  Virgi- 
nia, whereby  the  citizens  of  one  section  of  the  State  have  so  much  Vv^eight  on  the  floor 
of  the  Legislature,  and  the  c'tizeus  of  another  section  have  so  little,  (which  is  in  the 
extreme  as  twenty  to  one.)  it  is  contended  on  the  one  side  that  representation  in  tlie- 
Legislature  ought  to  be  based  on  v/hite  population  and  taxation  combined  ;  because, 
as  it  is  urged  by  the  advocates  of  this  basis,  that  property  or  wealth  is  of  so  much  im- 
portance in  civil  society,  that  it  ought  to  be  protected,  by  giving  to  it  a  voice  through 
its  owners  in  the  Legislature  ;  diminishing  by  so  much  the  voice  of  the  people.  This, 
on  the  other  side,  is  resisted,  because  it  is  inferior  in  its  nature  to  persons,  in  the  same 
ratio  that  persons  are  more  valuable  than  property  in  a  community,  and  that  it  would 
thus  be  substituting  the  inferior  for  the  superior,  and  usurping  the  place  of  and  taking 
from  persons  their  natural  rights  ;  and  farther  because  wealth  is  adventitious,  inciden- 
tal, and  too  fluctuating  in  its  nature  for  the  basis  of  a  fundamental  law,  which  ought 
to  be  founded  on  v/ell  ascertained  and  unchangetible  principles.  But  it  is  denied  by 
the  gentlemen  who  contend  for  this  mixed  basis,  that  there  are  any  fixed  principles  to 
govern  us  in  this  case. 

*  At  this  rate,  t'ne  money  thrown  away  on  James  River,  would,  jf  applied  to  the  improvement  of  the 
streams  wkicli  rise  below  "the  Ridge,  have  given  us  a  navigation  of  near  1900  miles. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


129 


It  is  contended  by  them,  that  Government  is  just  what  you  can  make  it.  (and  there- 
fore a  struggle  in  which  the  most  powerful  may  succeed ;  a  game  at  wliich  the  most 
skilful  may  Vin ;)  that  it  is  altogether  conventional,  to  be  regulated  entu-ely  by  expe- 
dience. Therefore,  the  whole  elfort  of  those  gentlemen  has  been  to  disprove  the  ex-  ' 
istence  of  those  principles  which  we  contend  for,  and,  indeed,  of  any  principles  what- 
ever to  regulate  us  in  this  case.  It  was  necessary  that  they  should  do  this,  as -they 
have  denied  the  primary  right  of  the  majority  to  rule.  Tliis  principle  is  a  barrier 
in  their  way,  and  if  they  do  not  remove  it  they  cannot  get  on.  But  this  is  not  the 
only  one  to  defend  us,  although  we  might  rely  upon  it  with  safety.  Nay,  we  have  no 
cause  to  fear  to  meet  them  hand  to  hand  in  the  open  field  of  expediency.  But  if  they 
had  even  carried  this  barrier,  there  is  another  just  behind  it  which  I  think  the}-  never 
can  pass ;  that  is  the  public  sentiment,  and  universally  received  opinion,  not  only  of 
the  people  of  Virginia;  but  of -the  whole  United  States.  If  there  is  any  political  sen- 
tmient  common  to  them  all,  it  is,  that  the  majority  ought  to  rule.  You  may  travel 
any  distance  you  i>iease  in  Virginia,  and  aslc  the  question  of  every  man  you  meet, 
whether  he  thought  the  majority  have  a  rtght  to  or  ought  to  rule  in  a  Republican 
Government;  and  if  he  did  not  laugh  at  vvhat  he  thought  so  simple  a  question,  he 
would  unhesitatingly  answer  in  the  atfirmative.  Yes,  Sir,  and  this  would  be  univer-  ' 
sally  the  case,  from  the  man  of  grey  hairs  down  to  the  stripling  of  tender  years.  And 
it  has  been  truly  said  b}-  a  wise^nd  experienced  statesman,  tiiat  he  was  most  unwise 
in  framing  a  Government,  Avho  disregarded  the  fixed  opinions,  and  even  prejudices  of 
the  people.  But  by  the  proposed  amendment  it  would  be  provided  in  the  Constitu- 
tion, that  the  minority  might  rule.  Can  it  be  supposed  that  a  fundamental  law  like 
this,  so  much  at  war  with  all  those  political  opinions  which  have  grown  with  the  peo- 
ple's growth  and  strengthened  with  their  strength,  and  have  become  interwoven  with 
all  their  thoughts,  could  prevail  with  them  or  be  endured  by  thenL^"  Certainly  not.  A 
Republican  Government  can  only  be  sustained  by  public  opinion  :  erect  it  on  any  other 
foundation,  and  3-0U  build  upon  the  sands :  when  the  rain  descends,  and  the  storms 
beat  upon  it,  it  will  fall.  But  the  gentleman  from  Hanover  (Mr.  Morris)  seems  to 
think  that  we  hav-e  given  it  up  as  a  principle  in  a  Republican  Government,  that  a  ma- 
jority have  an  inherent  right  to  rule.  I,  for  one,  have-not  given  it  up.  and  I  do  not 
know,  nor  am  I  persuaded  that  any  other  gentleman  has.  I  do  contend  that  there  are 
fixed  principles  in  the  science  of  Government,  as  well  as  in  other  sciences,  and  that 
this  is  one  of  those  principles,  and  a  leading  one.  To  stop  now  to  prove  that  there 
are  such  principles,  would  be  a  work  of  supererogation,  especially  after  wha.t  the  gen- 
tleman from  Frederick  (Mr.  Cooke)  has  said  on  that  point.  It  would,  indeed,  be  at- 
tempting to  prove  axioms  or  self-evident  propositions. 

I  would  as  soon  believe  that  there  was  no  truth,  no  justice,  no  rule  of  right  or 
wrong,  as  to  believe  this.  If  there  is  no  undeniable  truth  here,  such  as  are^called 
first  principles,  we  have  notiiing  to  reason  from ;  we  have  no  premises  and  can  never 
come  to  any  conclusion.  If^each  is  at  liberty  to  choose  their  own  premises,  they  must 
always  come  to  different  conclusions. 

We  would  be  thus  at  sea  witnoat  star  or  compass  to  guide  us,  veering  about  to  eve- 
ry purpose,  on  the  great  deep  of  expediency.  But,  that  there  are  such  first  principles, 
the  Bill  of  Rights  declares,  and  in  so  many  words  recommends  a  frequent  recurrence 
to  them,  and  this  has  been  the  political  creed  of  Virginia  ever  since  she  became  a 
Republic,  unless  we  have  abandoned  this  creed  and  departed  from  the  faith.  And 
since  the  existence  of  these  first  principles  is  indisputable,  the  only  enquiry  now 
is,  what  are  they  ?  and  how  are  they  to  be  -discovered The  answer  is,  that  they  are 
to  be  discovered  in  the  same  way  as  in  all  other  sciences,  that  is,  by  tracing  back 
those  sciences  to  their  primary  elements.  We  must  then,  in  this  case,  refer  to  man  in 
his  primitive  condition.  I  know  that  tlie  idea  of  man  ever  having  been  in  what  is 
called  a  state  of  nature,  is  ridiculed  as  being  imaginary  only,  and  as  being  a  state  that 
never  had  an  existence  in  fact.  It  is  not  necessary  to  dispute  about  tliis,  though 
more  instances  than  one  of  this  kind  can  be  referred  to  in  "history.  But  in  reasoning' 
upon  the  subject,  we  have  a  right,  for  the  sake  of  the  analogy,  to  pre-suppose  it,  just 
as  a  mathematician  pre-supp-^ses  a  line  and  a  point  before  he  proceeds  with  the  demon- 
strations which  carry  conviction  with  them,  and  cannot  afterwards  be  disproved,  by 
saying  that  the  mathematical  line  and  point  were  only  imaginary,  and  that  tliey  never 
had  a  real  existence.  We  cannot,  indeed,  divest  ourselves  of  the  idea  of  the  state 
which  man  must  have  been  in  previous  to  the  formation  of  the  social  compact.  This 
was  a  treaty  to  which  every  member  of  the  community  became  a  party,  by  which  they 
unanimousiy  agreed  to  form  one  body,  and  so  became  incorporated  as  such. 

This  was  formed  not  only  by  the  consent  of  the  majority,  but  by  the  consent  of  the 
whole.  And  when  tlie  compact  was  formed,  it  resulted  from  the  ver}^  nature  of  the 
case,  without  any  formal  stipulation,  that  it  could  only  act,  move  or  be  guided  by  the 
consent  of  the  majority.  True,  they  might  afterwards  by  tlie  consent  of  that  majori- 
ty, agree  that  a  minority  should  rule,  or  they  could  agree  to  create  a  monarchy  ;  but 
still  the  act  that  created  the  oligarchv  or  the  monarchy,  was  the  act  of  the  majority. 

■'     17  ■ 


130 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


This  majority  was  still  the  fountain  of  the  delegated  power,  which  proves  what  I 
contend  for,  that  there  was  an  original,  inherent  right  in  the  majority.  For  this,  I 
have  tlie  authority  of  as  gieat  a  political  philosopher  and  constitutional  jurist  of  the 
last  or  present  age,  viz  :  John  Locke,  Esq.  A  passage  from  his  work  on  civil  society, 
1  beg  leave  to  quote  :  "  For  when  any  number  of  men  have,  by  the  consent  of  every 
individual,  made  a  connnunity,  they  have  thereby  made  that  community  one  body, 
with  a  power  to  act  as  one  body,  wliich  is  only  by  the  will  and  determination  of  the 
majority.  For  that  which  acts  any  comnmnity,  being  only  the  consent  of  the  indi- 
viduals of  it,  and  it  being  necessary  to  that,  v,"hich_is  one  body,  to  move  one  way,  it 
is  necessary  tiie  body  should  move  tiiat  way,  whither  the  great  i'orce  carries  it,  which 
is  the  consent  of  the  majority  ;  or  else  it  is  impossible  it  should  act  or  continue,  one 
body,  one  community,  which  the  consent  of  every  individual,  that  united  into  it, 
agreed  that  it  should  ;  and  so  every  one  is,  bound  by  that  consent,  to  be  concluded 
by  the  majority.  And  therefore,  we  see,  that  in  asseniblies  empowered  to  act  by  po- 
sitive laws,  where  no  number  is  set  by  that  positive  law,  which  empowers  them,  the 
act  of  the  majority  passes  for  the  act  of  the  whole,  and  of  course  determines,  as  hav- 
ing, by  the  law  of  nature  and  reason,  the  povt^er  of  the  whole.  And,  thus  every  man, 
by  consenting  \ -ii  li  others  to  make  one  body  politic,  imder  one  Government,  puts 
himself  under  au  obligation  to  every  one  of  that  society,  to  submit  to  tlije  determina- 
tion of  the  majority,  and  to  be  concluded  by  it."  And,  I  think,  it  further  goes  to 
prove  that  man  had  an  original,  inherent  right  of  sufirage,  because  it  was  by  the  ex- 
ercise of  this  suifrage,  that  is  consent,  that  he  formed  the  social  compact.  He  did 
not  derive  it  from  the  social  compact,  for  it  existed  previous  to  the  existence  of  the 
compact,  and  by  it  he  formed  the  compact ;  it  was  the  cause  of  the  compact,  not  the 
effect  of  it ;  it  was,  therefore,  original  and  inhere  nt.  Property  could  not  be  regarded 
in  this  compact,  for  it  v/as  not  recognized,  and  did  not  exist  previous  to  it.  There 
must,  then,  have  been  a  second  compact  formed,  before  any  one  could  claim  repre- 
sentation for  property.  But  if  the  majority  of  persons  had  and  has  an  inherent  right 
to  govern,  upon  what  principles  can  you  give  that  right  to  a  minority  because  they 
possess  a  majority  of  wealth  ?  None  certainly  of  justice,  none  according  to  the  eter- 
nal fitness  of  things.  This  is  what  the  gentleman  from  Northampton  denominates  a 
.  majority  of  interests  ;  that  is,  the  rich  man  and  man  of  weai  Ji :  but  this  is  the  prin- 
ciple on  which  ail  aristocracies  and  oligarchies  have  been,  and  the  Holy  Alliance  is 
founded,  and  therefore  has  tendencies  to  which  that  gentleman  w^ould  be  averse. 
But  it  is  pressed  upon  us  in  answer  to  this,  by  the  gentleman  from  Orange,  why 
were  not  women  and  children,  and  all  other  persc-ris  taken  into  this  majority,  or 
counted  as  members  having  a  right  of  suffrage  We  answer  that  these  are  excep- 
tions to  the  general  rule,  and  that  the  Creator  who  gave  the  rule,  formed  the  excep- 
tions to  it.  He  created  Vv^omen  with  all  the  tenderness,  softness  and  delicacy  of  that 
sex,  and  when  he  placed  them  under  the  protection  of  man,  he  gave  them  an  influ- 
ence of  another  kind,  more  powerful  than  the  right  of  sufirage  ;  an  influence  which 
I  have  no  doubt  the  gentleman  from  Orange  will  acknowledge.  If  suffrage  at  the 
polls  had  been  added,  they  would  have  -been  entirely  too  powerful.  They  would 
have  had  all  the  Government  in  their  own  hands.  And,  therefore,  1  think  it  would 
have  been  difficult  to  form  a  society  in  the  present-day,  like  the  Amazons  the  gentle- 
man has  mentioned  ;  and  I  venture  to  say,  that  if  ever  such  a  societj'-  did  exist,  it  did 
not  exist  long.  It  is  not  necessary  to  mention,  why  children  are  not  taken  in,  or 
idiots,  &c.;  these  exceptions  do  not  impugn,  but  they  prove  the  rule.  Give  a  person 
one  vote  on  his  account,  and  another  on  account  of  his  wealth,  (which  is  ostensibly 
the  amount  of  the  demand  embraced  in  the  amendments  under  consideration,)  and 
give  another  person  one  vote  only,  because  he  has  not  weallh,  and  it  is  the  same  thing 
as  if  you  would  give  to  the  first  person  one  vote  only,  and  the  latter  none.  For,  by 
one  of  his  votes,  the  rich  man  could  annihilate  the  one  vote  of  the  poor  man  ;  and 
by  the  other,  he  could  reign  over  him.  It  cannot  be  denied,  that  if  a  majority  is  to 
rule,  a  minorit}'"  cannot :  but  if  wealth  is  to  be  represented,  a  minority  will  rule,  and 
if  a  majority  of  persons  ought  to  rule,  then  wealth  cannot  be  represented.  [Accomi- 
ing  to  the  standard  proposed,  the  value  of  a  vote  will  rise  and  fall  from  year  to  year,, 
according-  to  tlie  taxes.  If,  in  one  year,  the  rich  man  pays  twent}'  dollars  tax,  and 
the  poorer  nian  only  ten,  the  rich  man  or  his  friends  on  his  account,  will  have  two 
votes,  and  the  poor  man  only  one  ;  and  if  the  taxes  should  be  so  lessened  that  the 
rich  man  the  next  year  v.'ould  have  to  pay  only  twenty  cents,  and  the  poor  inan  only 
ten  cents,  still  the  rich  man  would  have  two  votes  to  the  poor  man's  one  ;  so  that  the 
price  of  a  vote  would  one  year  be  ten  dollars,  and  the  next  year,  only  ten  cents;  a 
great  variance  in  the  price  of  that  which  ought  to  be  above  all  price.]  This  would  be 
throwing  the  elective  franchise  of  men  to  the  winds  of  uncertainty,  to  be  driven  about 
as  something  of  no  value. 

In  the  scheme  proposed,  there  appears  to  be  no  equivalents,  no  justice.  It  is  the 
object  of  all  good  Governments,  to  produce  the  greatest  possible  good.  In  doing  this, 
a  choice  of  evils  is  often  presented,  that  is  of  two  evils,  one  of  wliich  is  unavoidable, 


DEBATES    OF    THE  COXVENTIOX. 


131 


to  choose  the  least.  Now,  it  is  said,  to  be  an  evil,  that  the  poorer  man  should  hare  an 
equal  voice  with  the  rich  man.  in  laying  the  ta:s:es  of  which  the  rich  man  has  much 
the  larger  portion  to  pay  ;  and  this  can  only  be  avoided  by  another  evil  ;  and  this  is.  by 
givina  the  rich  man  a  decided  control  in  making  or  passing  all  the  laws,  whereby  the 
most  vo-luable  immunities  of  the  poor  man  will  be  subjected  to  the^wiil  of  the  rich 
man".  2Sow.  from  which  of  these  two  evils,  is  it  possible,  for  the  greatest  degree  of 
human  misery  to  result .'  Certainly  from  that  which  might  fall  upon  the  poorer  man 
in  his  personal  safety  and  persouai  hberty.  by  so  much  as  these  are  above  all  equiva- 
lents in  money  :  and  this  proves  tlie  impohcy;  injustice  and  total  inadmissibihty  of 
the  scheme  proposed.  But  those  who  have  the  wealth,  assure  that  those  who  have  it 
not.  are  in  no  danger  ;  that  they  will  not  abuse  it.  But  why  is  not  the  virtue  of 
those  who  have  not  the  wealth,  as^much  to  be  trosted  .-  They  Jiave  as  much  riofht  to 
this  confidence,  as  the  wealthy  :  especially  as  the  security  required -of  them  is  so  se- 
vere. But  it  is  said,  that  the  weadthy  can  pass  no  lasvs  affecting  the  poor,  which  will 
not  affect  them  :  this  is  not  sb^  for  the  cottager  now,  who  is  not  wealthy  enough  to 
own  two  slaves,  must  work  on  the  roads,  while  those  who  have  two  slaves,  Eire  ex- 
empt. They  might  also  be  taxed  witii  double  duty  in  the  mihtia,  poll  taxes,  &c. 
There  is  a  furtlier  injustice  in  it  than  this.  It  is  only  in  money  bills,  that  the  rich 
man  can  be  endanger-ed,  and  these  are  in  proportion  generally  to  other  lav%-s  passed,  as 
one  in  fitly  :  and  so  to  have  the  control  -of  the  one  money  bill  against  the  poor  man, 
he  must  have  the  control  of  the  otlier  forty -nine  aofainst  him. 

In  examining  any  thing  which  has  been  advanced  by  tlie  gentleman  from  Culpeper, 
it  is  with  difiidence  in  my  opinion,  in  perfect  unison  with  that  high  respect  and  es- 
teem which  is  accorded  to  hmi  by  all  his  fellow-citizens,  as  Avell  for  bis  own  personal 
worth,  as  for  the  manner  in  wiiich  he  executes  the  duties  of  the  onice  wliicii  he  fills 
with  his  compeers  on  the  highest  seat  of  justice  in  the  State.  That  gentleman  ad- 
mits, that  aU  men  are  equal  in  their  natural  rights,  but  says,  tliey  are  unequal  in  their 
pohtical  rights.  It  may -then  be  enquired,  at  vrhat  point  does  the  equality  of  natural 
rights  end.  and  the  inequality  of -pohtical  rights  begin.-  And  of  what  avail  can  the 
equahty  of  natural  rights  be  to  a  man,  if  the  inequality  of  pohtical  rights  may  destroy 
them  ?  . 

If  personal  liberty  and  personal  safety,  are  natural  rights,  he  must  have  a  suiScient 
share  of  political  power  to  preserve  them ;  for  pohtical  ricrhts  resolve  themselves  in- 
to the  power  which  every  man  must  have  to  preserve  his  natural  rights  :  and  it  is  a 
contradiction  in  terms  to  say,  that  he  could  hold  liis  natural  rights  at  the  will  of  ano-^ 
ther,  because  that  vrhich  is  held  at  the  will  of  others  is  no  rigiit  at  all.  The  gentle- 
man from  Northampton.  (Judge  Upshur.)  denied  that  there  was  any  inherent  right  in 
the  majority,  derived  from  nature,  to  bind  the  minority  in  any  case.  To  illusti-ate  tliis, 
that  gentleman  has  said,  that  there  was  but  one  single  right  derived  from  nature,  and 
that  is,  the  ricrht  of  all  the  creatures  of  God  to  use  their  powers  in  such  mode,  as  .may 
best  promote  their  own  happiness.  That  the  hon  devours  the  ox:  the  ox  drives  tlie 
lamb  from  the  tender  o-rass  :  and  the  lamb  drives  the  creatures  more  timid  tlian  itself. 
Tins,  then,  is  the  riarht  which  superior  strength  gives,  and  according  to  this,  they  who 
have.obtained  illegitimate  power,  may  keep  it.  if  they  can,  and  add  to  it  if  they  are 
able. 

But,  perhaps,  this  was  not  exactly  what  the  gentleman  means  :  otherwise,  we  need 
not  hope  to  adjust  the  matters  in  difference  betv\-een  us,  as  far  as  power  could  go. 
But  I  know  he  possesses  more  liberal  sentiments;  though  we  differ  materially  as^to 
the  points  on  which  we  should  meet  so  as  to  agree.  Indeed  the  fascmating  strain  of 
that  gentleman's  eloquence,  was  such,  that  I  was  sometimes  astonished  to  find  where 
it  had  carried  me,  by  which  I  was  imperceptibly  led  to  substitute  the  truth  of  one  pro- 
position which  could  not  be  denied,  as  the  proof  of  another  which  was  still  to  be  de- 
monstrated. 3Iost  powerfully  has  the  pohtical  doctrines  which  we  contend  for,  been 
assailed,  but  I  feel  them  to  be  a  rock  which  torrents  of  eloquence  cannot  move,  and 
we  stand  in  no  need  of  their  adventitious  aid-  Thrice  is  he  armed  who  hath  his  quar- 
rel just.  Truth  is  all  powerful  and  must  prevail.  He  has  further  said  that  property 
is  one-hall  the  compound  in  the  social  compact,  and  persons  the  other.  Again,  that 
it  is  not  property,  btrt  the  rights  which  grow  out  of  it,  whicii  is  to  be  represented. 
The  conclusion,  forcibly  drawn  from  these  propositions,  is,  that  a  certain  proporijon  of 
the  suffrage  ought  to  be  given  to  property,  which  would  be  so  much  taken  from  per- 
sons ;  for  just  in  proportion  as  you  give  weight  to  property  in  the  Government,  you 
lessen  that  of  persons.  Now.  wealth  is  defined  to  be  the  power,  which  he  who  pos- 
sesses it  has  to  command  the  labor  of  others.  But  the  orentleman  fr'->m  Northampton 
would  add  to  this  power,  by  giving  it  Legislative  power:  that  would  ce  adding  power 
to  power,  and  according  to  the  state  of  the  case,  it  would  be  increasing  one  of  the  com- 
ponent parts  of  the  social  compact,  so  much  as  to  destroy  the  whole  equihbrium  emd 
proportion.  Yes,  Sir,  wealth  is  power  ;  and  wherever  wealth  is.  there  power  will  exist 
independent  of  Legislation.  Wealth  is  the  object  which  keeps  the  world  in  motion  :  it 
is  the  supreme  object  of  desire  amono-st  men  ;  they  are  dispersed  every  where  to  seek 


132 


DEBATES    OT   THE  CONVENTION. 


it  with  avidity,  and  to  bow  obsequiously  before  it ;  the  pursuit  of  it  was  ardent  enough, 
and  the  desire  strong  enough  ;  it  was  not  necessary  to  increase  it ;  but  it  would  seem 
by  the  gentleman's  argument,  to  be  exalted  to  a  higher  station  than  it  ever  possessed 
before  ;  it  is  now  to  be  brought  even  into  the  Legislative  Hall,  and  set  up  as  an  idol 
to  be  worshipped.  This  would,  indeed,  be  an  idolatry  which  would  corrupt  the  true  re- 
publican faitii,  and  such  as  we  ought  to  hope  and  pray  would  never  be  introduced  here. 

But,  if  I  am  not  much  mistaken,  this  is  the  first  attempt  that  ever  was  made  in  Vir-^ 
crinia,  formally  to  give  representation  to  wealth,  on  the  Legislative  floor.  Take  the 
Bill  of  Rights  and  the  Constitution  togetlier.  The  Bill  of  Rights  states,  that  evidence 
of  attachment  to,  and  permanent  common  interest  with  the  community,  shall  be  suffi- 
cient to  entitle  a  man  to  the  right  of  sufl:rage  ;  and  if  he  possesses  this  evidence,  he 
shall  be  entitled,  whether  he  is  rich  or  poor.  And  the  Constitution  only  points  out 
one  circumstance  which  shall  be  evidence  of  this  attachment,  &e.  That  is,  that  he 
should  be  a  freeholder.  But,  surely,  it  cannot  be  inferred  from  this,  that  there  was 
any  intention  or  design,  in  the  framers  of  that  Constitution,  that  wealth  should  be  re- 
presented. For  by  that  frame  of  Government,  it  could  not,  unless  by  mere  contingen- 
cy, because  the  poorest  and  least  populous  counties,  were  entitled  to  the  same  num- 
ber of  representatives  with  the  most  wealthy  and  most  populous  ones. 

But  1  can  shew  now,  that  if  the  end  was  a  good  one,  which  the  gentlemen  seem  to 
be  all  aiming  at,  the  means  proposed  never  wilL  accomplish  it.  So  far  from  it,  it  will 
operate  directly  the  reyerse.  Instead  of  protecting  the  rich  from  the  poor,  if  there  is 
a  danger  of  that  kind  to  be  apprehended,  it  would  be  increasing  the  power  of  the 
poor  against  the  rich  ;  which  1  can  shew  thus.  It  is  proposed,  as  I  understand,  by  this 
scheme  of  representation,  according  to  white  populadon  and  taxation,  to  divide  the 
representation  tliroughout  the  State,  in  such  a  manner  that  an  equal  number  of  white 
people  shall  send  a  representative.  And  then  the  taxes  are  to  be  divided  into  equal 
portions  according  to  the  number  chosen  in  the  mode  above  mentioned  :  and  an  addi- 
tional representative  is  to  be  sent  by  every  district  or  county,  paying  one-sixtieth  part 
of  the  taxes.  Now,  suppose  the  State  to  .be  divided,  by  a  line  running,  say  from 
north  to  south,  near  the  Blue  Ridge,  so  that  the  white  population  in  each  division  was 
exactly  equal,  and  that  there  were  thirty  districts  or  counties  in  each,  each  of  which 
would  send  a  member  on  account  of  its  population.  But  when  we  come  down  to  dis- 
tribute that  part  of  the  representation  resulting  from  wealth  or  taxation  it  is  found 
that  there  is  so  much  more  wealth  in  the  eastern  division,  as  to  entitle  it  on  the  whole  to 
double  or  one  half  the  number  of  representatives  more  than  the  western  division.  But, 
suppose  in  that  eastern  division,  ten  of  the  counties  or  districts  contain  all  the  wealth 
which  has  given  the  v/hole  number  of  districts  or  counties  in  it  tins  increase  of  re- 
presentation ;  and  suppose  the  other  twenty  counties  or  districts  in  the  eastern  section 
are  poor,  possessing  no  mora  wealth  on  an  average  than  the  counties  or  districts  in  the 
west ;  then  to  protect  the  wealth  of  these  ten  counties  in  the  Legislature,  you  give  each 
of  them  one  additional  representative,  but  in  doing  that  you  give  one  additional  re- 
presentative to  each  of  the  poor  counties.  Thus  while  you  advance  them,  or  strength- 
en the  rich  by  tens,  you  weaken  them  by  twenties.  But,  suppose  we  take  one  of  the 
rich  counties  whose  wealth  entitles  it  to  double  representation,  and  suppose  in  the  rich 
counties,  there  are  one  thousand  voters,  but  all  the  wealth  in  this  ricla  county,  which 
entitles  it  to  this  double  representation,  is  possessed  by  one  hundred  of  those  voters,  and 
the  other  nine  hundred  are  poor  men,  of  that  class  whose  circumstances  axe  below 
what  miglit  be  considered  mediocrity  ;  all  the  men  of  this  rich  county  may,  then,  in 
comparison  with  other  poor  counties,  be  considered  as  having  two  Votes  at  the  p.olls, 
to  the  voters  in  the  other  counties  one.  So  then,  to  defend  these  rich  men,  you  give 
them  on  the  whole,  one  hundred  votes,  but  in  doing  so,  you  give  nine  hundred  to  the 
poor  voters,  which,  according  to  the  gentleman's  ov/n  hypothesis,  must  be  directly 
against  the  rich.  And  thus,  although  the  system  contended  for,  may  not  come  out 
in  numbers  exactly  in  this  way,  yet  it  will  operate  in  a  certain  degree  in  that  way,  so 
as  to  increase  the  evil  exactly  in  the  same  proportion  that  the  poor  do  always  outnum- 
ber the  rich  in  all  sections  or  districts. 

There  is  no  way  of  obtaining  the  end  proposed,  so  as  to  give  the  man  who  pays  the 
taxes,  a  voice  in  laying  them  exactly  in  proportion  to  the  amount  which  he  must  pay, 
but  by  collating  him  v/ith  the  tax-books  at  the  polls,  or  by  bringing  him  there  with  a 
certificate,  or  so  marked  and  stamped,  that  it  may  be  known  for  what  amount  he  could 
be  current  at  the  polls  :  that  is,  to  have  it  there  ascertained,  how  many  each  ought  to 
count  according  to  his  wealth,  say  one,  two,  three,  or  four.  But  this  the  gentlemen 
will  not  attempt :  it  would  look  too  much  like  aristocracy  to  be  endured  in  a  free  coun- 
try. This,  as  far  as  can  be  learnt  from  the  public  journals,  was  introduced  into  the 
French  Government.  The  deputies  to  the  Legislative  Assembly,  are  elected  in  this 
way.  It  was  introduced  by  the  ultra-royalists  in  that  country,  who  seem  to  resemble 
those  politicians  in  England,  who  are  called  Tories.  It  is  called  the  double  vote,  and 
seems  to  have  created  great  dissatisfaction  among  the  people  there.  Those  who  are 
called  Liberals,  with  La  Fayette  at  their  head,  are  violently  ^opposed  to  it.    But  it  is 


DEBATES    OF    THE  COXVENTION. 


13S 


vain  to  disgiiise  it.  one  way  or  the  other.    I  do  not  say  that  the  friends  of  the  mea- 
sure have  made  nse  of  any'disguise  ;  but  the  project  disguises  itself,  and  when  strip- 
ped of  this  dis2Tii5e,  its  enects  will  only  be.  to  marshal  one  part  or  section  of  the  State, 
against  another,  producing  sectional  and  hostile  feehngs  continually.    It  will  be  pro- 
ductive of  nothing  but  heart-burnings  and  jealousies.    It  would  be  producing  a  state 
of  thino-s.  in  some  distant  degree,  between  ourselves,  hke  that  which  subsisted  between 
this  State  and  Great  Britain,  wiiile  Virginia  was  a  Colony.    Great  Britain  sought  to 
rule  the  Colony  for  her  own  advantage  T  the  Colony  submitted  witli  great  forbearance, 
until  provoked  bevond  endurance ;  Virginia,  then,  with  other  States,  broke  the  con- 
nection with  the  mother  country  forever.    I  do  not  say  that  the  State  would  be  se- 
vered, but  the  section  which  tiiought  itself  oppressed,  would  have  such  ahen  feelings 
towards  the  other,  that  we  can  hEirdly  anticipate  what  the  consequences  would  be. 
We.  in  the  unrepresented  part  of  the  State,  have  been  seeking  a  redress  of  this  our 
grievance,  for  more  than  twenty  years,  and  now,  when  we  hav^.  with  great  diffic\alty, 
obtained  an  audience,  the  condition  upon  which  it  is  offered,  is  worse  than  the  pen- 
alty  ■;  the  remedv  is  worse  thun  the  disease.    Our  situation  is  like  that  of  these  who 
asked  tor  bread,  and  a  stone  was  offered :  for  a  fish,  and  a  serpent  was  presented. 
Were  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper  to  prevail,  viz.  that  represen- 
tation should  be  fo\inded  on  the  combined  basis  of  wealth  and  population,  the  news 
would  be  answered  from  the  west,  with  groans  of  deep  disapprobation  and  discontent, 
if  not  witu  indignation.    Those  men  of  that  large  portion  of  Virginia,  who  are  now 
eamestlv  seeking  an  amendment  to  the  Constitution,  never  will  accept  of  this.  They 
would  rather  endure  the  ill  they  have  suffered  so  lon^.  than  ffy  to  others,  the  ex- 
tent of  which  can  hardly  be  foreseen.    We  would,  indeed,  rather  wear  the  old  yoke, 
which  is  almost  worn  out.  and  must  of  course  tall  of  itseff,  before  long,  than  to  put 
our  heads  into  a  new  one.  to  be  riveted  afresh,  to  last  for  generations  to  come.  For, 
in  the  common  course  of  human  events,  the  present  state  of  things  in  Virginia,  can- 
not continue  long.    Pubhc  sentiment  is  on  its  march  :  it  may  have  advanced  slowly 
for  some  time ;  it  never  ceases.    It  is  a  phalanx,  which  becomes  deeper  and  stronger 
as  it  advances,  and  will  never  stop  short  of  its  porat.    The  people  of  Virginia,  are  not 
a  volatile  or  fickle  people :  they  are  not  easily  aroused  ;  but  when  they  are.  it  belongs 
to  such  a  character  not  to  be  stopped  trntil  they  have  obtained  their  object.    They  must 
and  will  accomphsh  it.  not  by  physical  force,  but  by  moral  force.    To  engralt  that  pro- 
vision into  the  Canstitution.  would  be  to  leave  us  where  we  are.    ^Vhy  should  those 
gentlemen  who  advocate  this  amendment,  be  so  tenacious  of  a  state  of  things,  under 
which  Virginia  has  prospered  so  httle  ?   AVhen  a  physician  has  pursued  a  certain  mode 
of  treatment  of  his  patient,  for  a  long  tune,  dining  which,  the  patient  has  uniformlv 
grown  worse,  he  knows,  or  ought  to  know,  that  if  he  does  not  change  his  course,  the 
patient  will  probably  die.    So  Virs-inia  has'  been  long  in  a  state  of  decline,  durino" 
which  time  she  has  been  strictly  confined  to  a  certain  course  of  pohtical  regimen,  but 
still  she  is  sinking  more  and  more.    Is  it  not  time  to  change  it  ?    Virginia  was  as  fair 
a  portion,  of  tiie  earth,  as  any  under  the  sun  :  her  soil  in  its  virgin  state,  was  as  fertile 
ELS  was  by  nature  the  most  fertile,  or  best  cultivated  part  of  Europe  :  her  coast  is  deep- 
ly indented  with  bays  and  her  territory  intersected  lar  within  by  the  most  numerous  in- 
lets for  commerce,  any  where  to  be  found  in  the  same  space :  her  multiphed  rivers  ready 
to  roll  down  their  tribute  from  the  west :  her  climate  congenial  to  all  the  most  valua- 
ble asxicultural  productions  :  and  Nature  there,  ready  as  it  were  to  work  for  man  with 
both  hands,  if  he  would  extend  but  one  of  his ;  and  yet,  with  all  these  natural  advan- 
tages, she  is  retrograding  from  her  rank,  and  other  States  without  half  her  advanta- 
ges, are  goinof  far  ahead  of  her.    Her  population  in  the  eastern  section  is  stationarv, 
her  fields  are  deserted,  and  improvements  abandoned.    I  could  weep  over  her  desola- 
tions :  for  1  love  Virginia.   Now,  though  these  things  may  proceed  in  part,  but  they  do 
not  proceed  altogether  from  her  slave  population.    For,  go  to  the  western  part  of  the 
State  where  there  are  but  few  slaves,  not  enough  to  have  any  effect  or  influence  on 
the  people,  and  step  over  the  line,  in  the  adjoining  States,  in  soil  and  climate  of  the 
same  kind,  and  you  wiU  find  the  industry,  the  wealth,  the  population,  the  agriculture, 
and  all  the  tisefiil  arts  of  life,  two  to  one,  in  advance  of  Virginia.    If,  then,  this  dif- 
ference between  Virgioia  and  other  States,  does  not  proceed  from  want  of  natural  ad- 
vantages, and  but  in  part  from  her  slave  popuiation.  as  I  ha^-e  shewn,  what  else  c^m 
it  proceed  from,  bnt  a  defect  in  her  fi^me  of  Government  ?    Let  us  remedy  that,  and 
see  if  Virginia  is  not  regenerated,  disenthralled,  redeemed,  and  whether  she  will  not 
again  advEince  and  regain  the  station  she  ha,s  lost. 

Engraft  the  scion  of  genuine  Republicanism  upon  the  old  stock  of  Virguiian  pat- 
riotism; and  see  whether  it  will  not  bud  and  blossom,  grow  and  bear  precious  fruit, 
without  becoming  too  luxuriant,  as  it  is  feared.  But  the  gentleman  from  Hanoverj 
and  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier,  have  objected  to  giving  us  our  due  weight  in  the 
Government,  lest  we  should  construct  roads  and  canals.  I  need  not  take  notice  of  the 
disparaging  mannei^in  which  those  gentlemen,  (the  gentleman  from  Hanover  at  least) 
have  spoken  of  roads  and  canals.    The  gentleman  from  Hanover,  having  so  little  oc- 


134 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


casion  for  facilities  of  this  kind,  may  not,  indeed,  set  that  vahie  upon  those  improve- 
ments, which  we  do,  who  have  many  rhountains  and  hills  to  pass,  and  rapid  rivers  to 
descend  to  get  our  produce  to  market;  and  therefore,  we  have  been  unfortunate 
enough  to  speak  of  those  roads  and  canals  to  the  Legislature,  and  to  ask  its  aid  to 
make  them.  Unfortunate  I  say,  indeed,  if  that  is  to  create  an  objection  against  us  in 
obtaining  our  rights ;  which  rights,  whether  roads  and  canals  are  made  or  not,  must 
be  at  all  times  the  same.  But  lest  this  should  have  an  undue  weight,  or  any  weight 
at  all,  by  inducing  the  belief  that  we  are  disposed  to  be  unreasonable  on  the  subject, 
I  will  first  mention  the  true  state  of  the  case. 

It  was  known,  that  we,  as  well  as  the  rest  of  our  fellow-citizens,  had  an  interest  in 
a  large,  fund  for  internal  improvement,  which  was  thought,  under  its  original  consti- 
tution, to  be  sufficient  to  afford  a  benefit  to  each  part  of  the  State.  When  we  sought 
a  part  of  it  in  the  first  instance,  we  were  told  that  the  James  river  ought  to  have  the 
benefit  of  it  for  the  first  two  or  three  years,  but  then  we  should  have  it.  At  the  end 
of  that  time,  we  applied  again  :  the  same  answer  was  given  us  ;  and  so  from  time  to 
time,  until  we  found  4Jiat  the  whole  fund  was  swallowed  up  in  the  James  river,  and 
the  credit  of  the  State  mortgaged  for  further  improvements.  We  thought  then,  that 
as  we  had  been  bound  with  our  other  fellow-citizens  for  the  improvement  of  the  James 
river,  that  it  would  not  be  presuming  too  much  to  ask  for  some  assistance,  not  that 
we  asked  the  State  to  become  bound  for  us.  And  this  is  the  head  and  front  of  our 
offending,  v/hicli  has  given  so  much  alarm  to  those  ^-entlemen.  For  this  -},e  are  to  be 
held  in  political  durance ;  and  when  we  ask  to  be  delivered  from  it,  the  a^nswer  is  no, 
we  are  afraid  if  we  give  you  your  due  weight,  according  to  numbers,  that  you  will 
make  roads  and  canals  with  our  money.  And  when  we  offer  terms  equal  to  giving 
security  for  our  good  behaviour,  as  to  this,  we  still  have  the  same  denial,  lest  as  it 
might  be  presumed,  we  might  seek  some  indemnification  for  our  portion  of  the  fund 
for  internal  improveirtent,  which  has  been  taken  from  us.  To  give  form  and  substance 
to  the  Constitution  from  such  considerations  as  these,  would  be  to  shape  that  Vvdiich 
is  to  last  for  many  generations,  (as  we  would  hope)  according  to  transient  circumstan- 
ces, whereby  the  distortions  of  the  instrument  would  remain  long  after  the  incidents 
which  produced  them,  were  forgotten  or  were  only  remembered  in  the  evil  ihey  had 
produced,  and  long  after  these  roads  or  canals  Avere  made  or  abandoned.  It  would  be 
a  curious  part  of  the  history  of  this  time,  to  be  told,  that  the  Constitution,  then  ex- 
isting, would  have  been  materially  different,  had  it  not  been,  that  these  internal  im- 
provements had  been  then  or  previously  desired.  Now,  in  conclusion,  I  would  ask 
this  highly  respected  and  venerated  body,  one  such,  as  v/ith  which  I  never  again  ex- 
pect to  be  associated,  not  to  permit  this  amendment  to  pass. 

On  the  conclusion  of  Mr.  Naylor's  Speech,  the  Committee  rose,  on  motion  of  Mr. 
Barbour  of  Culpeper. 

On  Mr.  M'Coy's  motion,  the  Convention  determined  (41  to  39  votes)  to  change 
their  hour  of  meeting  from  11  to  10  o'clock. 

And  then,  on  Mr.  See's  motion,  the  Convention  adjourned  till  Monday  morningj 
10  o'clock.  '  ^,  - 


^      MONDAY,  November  2,  1829. 

The  Convention  was  opened  with,  prayer  by  the  Rt.  Rev.  R.  C.  Moore,  of  the 
Episcopal  Church,  and  a  few  minutes  after  ten  o'clock,  the  President  took  the  Chair. 

Mr.  Stanai'd,  after  a  few  prefatory  remarks  on  the  Inconvenience  of  meeting  at  this 
hour,  moved  that  when  the  Convention  shall  adjourn,  it  adjourn  to  meet  to-morrow j- 
at  eleven  o'clock. 

The  motion  was  opposed  by  Mr.  M'Coy,  who  asked  for  a  further  trial  of  the  present 
course  of  proceeding.  The  question  being  taken,  the  votes  stood.  Ayes  37,  Noes  37  j 
the  President  voting  in  the  negative,  the  motion  was  lost. 

The  Convention  then  passed  to  the  Order  of  the  Day,  and  went  into  Committee  of 
the  Whole,  Mr.  Stanard  in  the  Chair.  . 

And  the.  question  lying  over  from  Saturday,  being  on  an  amendment  proposed  by 
Mr.  Scott  to  the  amendment  offered- by  Mr.  Green  to  the  resolution  of  the  Legislative 
Committee. 

[The  original  resolution  reads  thus  : 

Resolved,  That  in  the  apportionment  of  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates, 
respect  shall  be  had  to  the  free  v/hite  population  exclusively.'] 

The  amendment  of  Mr.  Green  proposes  to  strike  out  the  word  "  exclusively,"  and 
insert  in  heu  thereof,  the  Vv^ords  and  taxation  combined,"  so  as  to  read,  "  free  white 
population  and  taxation  combined."  And  the  am.endment  of  Mr.  Scott  proposes  to 
add,  "  and  in  the  Senate  to  v/hite  population  exclusively  :"  (the  effect  of  which  last 


DEBATES    OF    THE  CONVENTION. 


135 


amendment  is,  in  substance,  to  adopt  the  mixed  basis  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  and 
the  wliite  basis  in  the  Seiiate.) 

]Mr.  Green  expressed  his  willingness  to  adopt  the  amendment  of  r>Ir.  Scott  as  a 
modification  of  liis  own,  (the  effect"  of  which  would  be -to  prevent  the  necessity  of 
taking  any  distinct  vote  on  3Ir.  Scotfs  amendment.) 

The  Chair  decided  this  course  to  be  contrary  to  the  rules  of  order  of  the  House  of 
Delegates,  (wluch  the  Convention  have  adopted  as  their  ovrn  so  far  as  they. apply.) 
wliich  require  that  after  an  amendment  has  been  moved  and  debated,  it  cannot  be 
modified  by  the  mover,  but  must,  if  he  wishes  to  alter  it,  be  altogether  withdrawn, 
and  another  substituted. 

On  this  decision  a  debate  arose  -;  but  as  questions  of  mere  order,  though  often  dis- 
puted long  and  warmly,  have  usually  more  interest  in  ilie  House  than  out  of  it,  we 
are  not  in^the  habit  of"'presentmg  more  of  them  to  our  readers  tlian  the  leading  points. 
The  leading  point  in  this  case  v^as,  that  if  the  amendment  of  2Vlr.  Scott  v.-as  suffered 
to  be  united  to  that  of  Mr.  Green,  gentlemen  who  could  not  approve  of  both,  might 
appear  as  if  voting  against  the  basis  in  the  Senate,  while  their  vote  was  direct- 

ed against  the  mixed^basis  in  the  House  of  Delegates.  An  appeal  was  even  taken  by 
Mr.  "Doddridge  from  the  decision  of  tlie  Chair,  but  subsequently  withdrawn.  2\Ir. 
Green  also  wTthdrew  his  motion  to  unite  the  two  ;  and  the  question  being  as  at  first 
on  the  a.mendment  of  Mr.  Scott  onlj', 

3Ir.  J.  S.  Barbour  said,  that  he  was  gratified  to  find  that  by  the  amendment  of  his 
honorable  colleague  (2vlr.  Scott)  the  controversy  could  no  longer  be  said  to  be  one  for 
power,  but  that  it  now  resolved  itself  into  a  question  of  protection.  In  reaching  his 
own  conclusions  on  tiiis  subject,  he  had  looked  mainly  to  the  preservation  of  certain 
great  interests  in  the  State,  and  he  was  anxious  to  take  that  course  which  would  ef- 
fectually defend  them  against  encroachment.  The  end  in  view  was  one  indissolubly 
bound  up  with  the  harmony  and  the  liberties  of  the  people,  and  tlie  means  should  be 
adequate  to  the  end.  Power  and  protection  seemed  to  him  to  be  more  closely  allied 
than  gentlemen  had  admitted.  They  are  correlatives,  necessary  to  the  objects  of 
civil  society,  and  cannot  be  separated.  Mv.  B.  said,  it  appeared  to  him  that  much  of 
the  vice  which  pervaded  the  arguments  on  the  other  side,  might  properly  be  traced 
to  the  misapprehension  of  the  coiiservative  principle  of  our  political  institutions. 

Gentlemen  had  argued  the  question,  as  if  the  wiH  of  the  majority  should  be  the 
only  rule  of  action,  it  was  certainly  entitled  to  great  weight,  and  would  always  ex- 
ert great  influence.  But  it  is  not  the  only  consideration  which  merits  enquiry.  The 
great  safeguard  in  a  Republican  Government  is,  in  my  view,  to  be  found  in  hmita- 
tions  of  power  ;  whether  that  power  be  vested  in  the  many  or  the  few.  Responsibi- 
lity cannot  be  disregarded  in  the  public  functionary  without  destruction  to  popular 
rio:hts,  and  yet,  in  a  society  made  up  of  numerous  and  diversified  interests,  this  prin- 
ciple of  responsibility  would  often  fall  sh-:rt  of  compassing  the  objects  of  justice. 
For,  if  a  majority  of  these  interests  be  united  in  one  common  bond,  the  rights  of  a 
minorit}-,  having  dissimilar  interests,  must  be  insecure.  I  have  thought,  said  Mr.  B. 
that  there  were  two  important  securities  necessary  in  our  representative  system.  The 
first,  to  secure  tlie  fidehty  of  the  representative  to  the  constituent  body ;  the  second, 
to  guard  one  part  of  the  community  against  the  injustice  of  the  other.  Without 
these,  justice  will  be  overthrowu,  and  liberty  cannot  long  survive  the  downfall  of 
justice.  The  first  of  these  securities  we  possess  in  the  frequency  of  elections  ;  to 
the  other  we  have'not  (riven  sufficient  attention.  .  No  form  of  Government  has  ever 
subsisted,  in  wliich  th^s  principle  of  responsibihty  was  not  at  times  seen  and  felt. 
Even  in  the  most  frightful  despotisms,  it  has  often  exerted  a  powerfixl  dominion.  The 
great  struggles  v.^hickhave  occurred  between  liberty  and  power,  in  the  old  as  well  as 
the  new  world,  have  almost  invariably  terminated  by  imposing  further  limitations 
upon  power.  If  limitation  upon  power  be  unnecessary,  and  if  the  will  of  the  majo- 
rity is  to  be  alone  looked  to,  why  is  it  that  we  have  Constitutions  at  all  ?  In  all  the 
contests  in  England,  from  1628,  when  that  act  of  Parliament  passed,  which  is  deno- 
minated the  Petition  of  R-ight,  to  the.  Revolution  of  1C8S,  the  first  pm-pose  seems  to 
have  been,  to  impose  new  cliecks,  and  additional  restraints,  upon  those  hands  tliat 
wielded  the  sovereignt}^.  If  men  were  Angels  ;  if  justice  and  magnanimity  were,  at 
all  times,  to  exert  an  uncontrolled  sway  there  would  be  no  need  of  any  Govern- 
ment upon  earth.  It  is  because  we  are  not  so  constituted,  that  Governments  are  in- 
stituted ;  and  political  institution  is  unwisely  constructed,  if  it  be  not  so  armed,  and 
so  restricted  too,  as  to  ensure  its  rightful,  and  restrain  its  injurious  action.  It  is  not  a 
novel  doctrine,  that  majorities,  actuated  by  common  interests,  will  unjustly  encroach 
on  the  minority.  We  have  at  this  moment  a  strong  illustration  of  it,  in  the  operation 
of  those  laws  of  the  Federal  Government,  knovrn  by  the  name  of  Tariff  Acts.  Res- 
p  )nsibility  of  the  representative  to  the  constituent  body,  is  the  direct  cause  of  these 
oppressive  encroachments,  upon  the  sufiering  interests  of  the  Southern  States.  The 
evil  here,  is  not  in  the  Govermneiit,  but  in  tlie  community  ;  a  community,  imited  by 
interest,  and  acting  under  its  influence,  disregarding  the  obhgations  of  justice,  and 


136  DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 

preying  upon  thtMninor  portion  of  that  conununity.  The  principle  is  identical  with 
that  we  are  now  discussing. 

To  shew  that  these  unequal  interests  exist  in  the  scale  of  contribution,  gentlemen, 
agreeing  with  me  in  sentiment,  have  offered  numerous  calculations  to  our  view,  and  it 
Will  be  worse  than  idle  for  me  to  repeat  them.    That  great  disparity  exists  in  the  con- 
dition and  the  relations  of  this  Commonwealth,  nmst  be  apparent  to  all.  Prudence, 
duty  and  safety,  call  upon  us  to  lay  along  side  this  striking  disparity,  this  exposed  in- 
terest, a  strong  principle  of  protection.    I  look,  said  he,  to  the  means  of  prevention, 
and  these  can  only  be  obtained  in  representative  power.    We  are,  however,  gravely, 
told  upon  the  other  side,  that  we  need  no  protection;  that  our  fears,  are  the  creatures 
of  fancy  ;  that  justice,  honour  and  magnanimity,  will  be  the  efiicient  guardians  of  cur 
welfare.    I  make  a  just  estimate  of  the  virtues  and  integrity  of  gentlemen  opposed 
to  me,  when  I  declare,  in  perfect  sincerity,  that  I  would  confide  to  them  as  much  as 
I  could  to  any  men  whatever.    But  I  confide  to  no  man,  that  which  it  m.ay  become 
his  interest  to  abuse;  that  which  it  is  his  interest  to  violate.    When  gentlemen  tell 
me  that  my  fears  are  idle  figments  of  the  imagination,  I  put  in  opposition,  to  such  sug- 
gestions, facts,  experience,  that  which  is  known  to  me  from  personal  knowledge.  Let 
me  ask  the  honorable  member  from  Brooke  (Mr.  Doddridge)  if  he  did  not  openly 
avow  in  1823,  the  propriety  of  basing  representation  from  this  State  to  Congress,  up- 
on white  population  exclusively And  did  he  not  refrain  from  moving  it,  only  he- 
cause  he  knew  that  it  would  be  put  down  at  tliat  time,  by  force  of  numbers  in  the 
Legislature.?    With  this  fact  staring  me  in  the  face,  can  gentlemen  ask  me  to  yield 
this  protection  for  the  eleventh  part  of  our  representative  influence  in  the  General 
Government.''    And  to  give  up  this  representative  power,  as  a  mere  gratuity  to  those 
who  give  nothing  for  it,  and  to  wliich  we  are  entitled  only  in  consequence  of  our 
slave  population.    I  do  not  blame  gentlemen  for  entertaining  or  advocating  such  opi- 
nions, but  they^must  pardon  me  for  taking  precaution  against  such  schemes  when- 
ever they  may  be  set  on  foot.    Nor  does  this  diversity  of  interest,  with  its  correspon- 
dent influence,  pervade  one  region  of  the  State  more  than  another.    I  have  lived  long 
enough,  Mr.  Chairman,  to  witness  its  operation  in  the  General  Assembly  upon  the 
East,  as  well  as  the  West.    Give  me  leave.  Sir,  to  remind  you  of  an  instance  occur- 
ring whilst  we  were  botli  of  us  members  of  the  House  of  Delegates.    There  was  a 
time  daring  the  late  war,  in  which  the  progress  of  events  was  well  calculated  to  arouse 
and  animate  the  patriotism  of  the  whole  land.    It  did  arouse  a-nd  excite  it.    The  Ca- 
pital of  the  country  had  fallen.    The  arrogant  and  insulting  terms  of  the  enemy  had 
been  promulgated  at  Ghent;  and  we  had  received  an  ofllcial  connnunication  from  the 
Commander  of  the  hostile  fleets  in  our  r/aters,  that  he  would  lay  waste  every  assail- 
able point.    The  indignation  of  the  General  Assembly  was  kindled  into  flame,  and 
its  feelings  were  expressed  in  the  unanimous  vote  of  the  Legislative  body.    Yet,  at 
that  very  moment,  and  under  the  influence-of  these  exciting  causes,  both  the  East 
and  the  West,  demonstrated  the  powerful  and'  controlling  sway  of  dissimilar  interests 
and  local  apprehensions.    1  allude  to  the  vote  given  on  the  passage  of  the  bill,  then 
denominated  the     Defence  Bill."    With  all  the  patriotism,  chivalry  and  gallant  de- 
votion, which  they  possessed  and  had  displayed  in  an  eminent  degree  during  the  war, 
yet  few,  very  few  western  members  went  along  witli  us  in  support  of  that  measure. 
The  reason  is  obvious.    They  were- remote  from  the  theatre  of  danger,  and  could  not 
have  that  community  of  feeling  and  sense  of  necessity,  that  pressed  upon  others  not 
sa  situated.    When  the  discussions  occurred  in  the  Senate,  let  me  enquire  of  the 
honorable  member  from  Augusta,  (Mr.  Johnson,)  if  he  did  not  witness  the  influence 
of  the  same  cause  in  ito  efi^ects  upon  the  debates  of  the  Senate.    The  operation  of  the 
bill  would  have  been  to  withdraw  portions  of  the  local  militia  from  the  tide- water 
country  generally,  and  to  concentrate  military  power,  upon  points  more  peculiarly 
exposed,  and  presenting  stronger  temptations  to  the  incursions  of  the  foe.    Does  he 
not  remember  the  violent  opposition  that  he  encountered,  in  sustaining  that  measure, 
from  the  Senators  from  Lancaster  and  Mathews I  have  mentioned  these  facts,  for 
the  single  purpose  of  shewing  that  in  times  peculiarly  calling  for  union  of  hearts  rnd 
councils;  for  forbearance  and  oblivion  offends;  that  local  interests  have  exerted  their 
influence  upon  men,  high-minded,  and  elevated  in  honour,  principle  and  patriotism. 
S.r,  we  are  also  told,  that  a  safizcieut  and  adequ  ite  guarantee  will  be  give  n  to  us. 
No  other  guarantee,  but  representative  power  can  be  sufiEicient  or  adequate.    The  his- 
tory of  the  world  shews  that  in  all  contests  between  virtue  and  interest,  the  latter  has 
finally  prevailed.    I  wish  to  make  them  allies,  not  antagonists  ;  for  in  the  union  of  in- 
terest and  virtue,  have  you  the  only  safe  pledge  for  happiness,  for  justice  and  liberty. 
But,  what  is  this  guarantee  1    Why,  an  article  in  the  .Constitution  .'^    And  who  is  to 
tell  us  what  that  article  means.?    fiow  far  it  is  to  operate,  and  when  it  is  to  cease  .? 
Who  is  to  construe  it .?    Why,  Sir,  the  majority  ;  and  it  cannot  be  necessary  for  me 
to  say,  that  wherever  you  deposit  this  power  of  construing,  this  right  of  interpreting 
its  meaning,  there  do  you  also  deposit  a  sovereign  power  over  it.    Then,  the  amount 
of  this  guarantee  resolves  itself  at  last  into  the  will  of  the  majority,  who  may  make 


DEBATES    or   THE    C  ON^EN'TIOi^T. 


137 


it  mean  what  they  please,  or  strike  it  out  altogether  at  pleasure.  And  this  brings  me 
back  to  the  enqairj,  iicyw  far  it  is  safe  to  tra:<t  even  a  majority  with  a  power  to  oppress 
a  maioritr.  wuen  aai^ted  with  temptations  and  inducements  to  al')use.  it  is  saia,  liiat 
this  de/eaoa  ox' the  interest  of  jim  irities  is  novel  dootr.ne.  incoiapiLble  witii  republi- 
can principles.  Sir,  there  is  no  mcampatibiiity  between  juslice  and  republicanism : 
they  can  t  exist  apart,  li*  1  am  to  be  oppressed,  deprived  or  my  rigals  or  properly  by 
force,  of  what  m:)ment  to  me  is  it,  whetner  that  be  tne  force  and  injos'Llce  oi  the  ma- 
ny or  the  few.'  If  an  honorable  member  over  tlie  way.  (Mr.  Rand  Iph.)  will  pardon 
me  the  usa  of  a  hgare  of  tiis,  I  wJl  say,  tait  1  cro  ror  tae  interest  of  tiie  Stnck- 
holders  against  that  of  tlie  President,  Directors  and  Casliiers  of  this  thing  called  Gov- 
ern jiaat..  1  am  for  gaajJ-ng  Lhe  S;  ?c;k-h  /Ider's  mterc-st,  even  if  tae  Pre^.dents,  Cash- 
iers and  Directors  be  miiitiphed  m.o  tae  more  namer oiis  body.  J  have  iiigh  authori- 
ty to  answer  the  intimarlon  that  this  is  novel  doctrine.  1  ixope  to  be  torg^vtn  by  a 
venerajle  geatlemin  on  this  floor  for  using  it.  In  the  Virginia  Ccnventiun.  3ir.  iMa- 
cisoa  said : 

"  Bat  on  a  candid  esxmlnition  of  history,  we  shall  find  that  turbQieuce,  violence, 
and  aouse  of  power,  by  tiie  maj  )rity  trampling  on  tiie  righls  oi  tae  minorit\-.  have 
produced  factions  aad  coai.u  jtions,  which,  m  republics,  have  more  trequenily  than  any 
otn^r  cause,  produced  despotism.  If  we  go  over  ihe  whole  history  of  sncitnt  and 
modern  repujlics,  we  shall  and  their  destruj^tlon  to  hive  generally  resulted  irom  those 
causes.  If  we  consider  the  peculiar  situation  of  tae  Un.ttd  States,  and  what  are  tlie 
sources  of  the  diversity  of  sentiments  which  pervades  its  Lnhab.tants,  we  shall  find 
great  danger  to  fear,  that  the  same  causes  may  terminate  here,  m  tiie  same  lalal  ef- 
fects, waicn  they  produced  m  those  repubhcs.  ' 

Tae  prmciple  of  numbers  is  srrenu^usiy  urged  upon  us^.  Yv^here  do  they  get  t!rls 
principla  ?  iNot  in  Gjvern.aents  or  societies  s-taated  Lke  us.  "Where  the  v.- ants,  the 
ne?.es5.ties,  and  the  contributions  of  the  people  were  siijiilar,  if  they  acted  aliiie  upon 
every  part,  then  the  prmciple  of  numbers  w.uld  be  jus:,  and  representative  responsi- 
bility a  samcieat  safe-guard  against  unjust  enoroaehmeat.  JSunibers  are  looked  t  be- 
cause numbers  indicate  the  abihty  of  society,  to  pay  its  contnbuticns.  But  what  nmn- 
bers.'  For  taxatim,  you  take  llie  whole  numbers  of  population,  witlirut  regard  to 
age,  sex,  condition  or  colour.  The  reason  is  apparent.  Taxes  are  denned,  by  writers 
on  political  economy,  to  be  coatrioutioas  from  the  land  and  labor  of  the  country,  placed 
at  the  disposal  of  tae  Government.  Contributions  are  made,  and  so  levied  upon 
the  whole  labor  of  the  country  :  and  if  the  principle  ofnuuibers  is  to  be  adhered  to, 
tlie  same  reason  that  is  assigned  for  the  imposition  of  taxe.s,  vrould  justify  representa- 
tion. But  to  this.  1  should  oe  un-^viillng.  Id_seardtlie  principle  ot  numbers  altoge- 
ther, and  recur  to  that  of  taxation. 

In  recurriug  to  the  question  of  taxation  and  representation  as  inseparaMe  correla- 
tives, we  cannot  avoid  looking  to  the  obligations  of  the  Government,  to  protect  pro- 
perty as  well  as  persons.  Tms  principle  is  not  only  derived  to  us,  from  that  country 
from  which  w  have  drauai  most  of  our  opinions  of  civil  and  religious  liberty,  but  it 
is  the  found  ition  of  that  revolution,  which  made  tliese  States  free  and  independent. 
From  loin  to  it>:;i,  it  was  the  moving  impulse  to  the  great  events  then  occurring  in 
England,  and  which  tended  m  a  high  degree,  to  secure  tlie  freedom  of  that  country, 
and  to  inculcate  here  the  genuine  doctrines  of  civil  an.J  religious  hberty.  The  Peti- 
tion of  Right,  in  Old  England,  did  not  only  aim  at  enforcing  the  act  against  the  ~fexac- 
tion  of  aroitrary  benevolencies,  but  to  prevent  tlie  impositicn  of  any  other  tax,  loan, 
or  such  ch  irge,  without  common  consent  in  Parliament  given.  And  to  curtail  the  pre- 
rogative of  Cie  Crown,  to  cut  up  its  minora  rega-  iu,  there  was  an  express  prohibition 
against  the  power  of  hnprisonment.  The  Petition  of  .  Right  is  known  to  be  the  pro- 
duct of  Lord  Coke's  pen,  who  had  a  just  right  to  say,  that  he  had  won  all  the  honors 
of  his  distinguished  Ih'e, "  without  prayers  and  without  pence  he  courted  nor  flattered 
neither  Ca  arch  nor  State.  This  important  act  of  ParLament,  conceded  to  the  subjects 
of  the  Crown  the  right  of  taxing  themselves,  and  a  perfect  security  of  person  and 
property.  There  is  nothing  great  and  glorious  in  the  liistory  of  England,  that  is 
not  in  some  way  associated  with  their  indissoluble  union  of  taxation  cmd  representa- 
tion. The  Hibc'is  Csrpu^  came  from  tills  contest,  as  the  shield  of  the  subject  against 
the  arbitrary  power  (jf  the  Crown.  IN  :r  do  I  hazard  any  thing  of  error  in  the  asser 
tion,  that  these  conservative  principles  of  liberty  and  law,  were  laid  in  the  blood  uf 
that  monarch,  whose  head  the  people  brought  to  the  block,  as  an  appr  prlate  sacrifice 
for  the  liberties  of  Eagland.  Pfiaciples,  for  which  Hampden  lost  his  life  hi  Chaigrave- 
neid.  and  in  support  of  which,  Russell  and  Sidney  died  upon  the  scaff  Id.  I  am  tm- 
VviUing.  (said  Mr.  Barbour,)  to  surrender  the  principles  of  L':cke,  and  of  ISIllton,  for 
the  fancies  of  Rosseau,  ave,  as  unwilhn^  as  I  am  to  disregard  the  hghts  of  cur  own 
revolution  for  the  ignis  fatuus  of  French  politics  and  French  irreliglcn.  or  rather  for 
the  delusions  of  anarchy  and  atheism.  The  American  revolution  is  the  fruit  of  the 
effort  in  the  parent  Legislature,  to  seize  by  taxation  the  property  of  the  Colonies,  with- 
out their  free  and  common  consent  in  making  the  gift  and  grant.    The  offer  was 

IS  ° 


138 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


made  that  representation  be  allovv^ed  the  Colonies,  but  it  was  rejected,  because  such 
representation  must  be  nominal  only. 

The  sturdy  Patriots  and  able  Statesmen  of  that  day,  knew  the  inefficacy  of  such 
representation.  They  pointed  to  the  instance  of  Scotland,  and  insisted  that  represen- 
tation in  form,  only,  was  but  an  apology  for  greater  plunder  and  more  oppressive  ex- 
action, if  we  turn  our  attention  to  the  Coiistitution  of  the  United  States,  the  same 
principle  for  which  we  contend,  is  therein  engrafted.  Direct  taxes  and  representa- 
tion in  the  popular  branch  of  the  Legislative  Department,  are  locked  together.  If 
power  is  wanted,  it  is  to  be  had  upon  condition,  that  it  bear  the  expenses  of  the  so- 
cial and  Federal  system.  Pay  the  taxes,  and  you  have  the  representatives.  With 
representation,  power  passes  als.o,  but  the  shadow  must  not  and  cannot  quit  its  sub- 
stance. My  views  are  directed  by  practical  utility,  and  not  by  speculative  philosophy. 
In  looking  through  the  Debates  of  the  State  Conventions,  that  ratified  the  Federal 
Constitution,  I  perceive  that  the  men  of  those  days,  recognized  the  principles  for 
which  I  contend,  and  acted  on  them.  In  New-York  and  Massachusetts,  Mr.  Jones, 
Mr.  Smith,  Mr.  Hamilton  and  Mr.  R.  King,  and  Mr.  Samuel  Adams,  all  contended, 
"  that  taxation  and  representation,  should  go  hand  in  hand,  and  that  it  was  the  lan- 
guage of  all  America."  Notwithstanding  the.  lights  of  our  own  revolution,  and  those 
reflected  by  the  lamp  of  history,  we  are  now  to  disregard  all,  and  to  pursue  a  path  as 
yet  untrodden,  either  by  prudence  or  success.  And  why,  Mr.  Chairman,  let  me  ask  ? 
Because  petitions,  it  is  said,  have  poured  in  for  reform.  I  venture  to  predict,  that 
the  people  never  dreamed  of  this  sort  of  reform.  Reform,  which  is  to  make  one  man's 
property  the  property  of  another,  without  the  owner's  consent,  and  in  flie  end  to  en- 
slave his  person,  by  first  stripping  him  of  his  property.  When  the  gentleman  from 
Brooke,  spoke  of  the  annual  petitions  from  the  counties  of  Henry  and  of  Patrick, 
praying  the  call  of  a  Convention,  I  was  reminded  of  another  sort  of  petition,  that  I 
have  sometimes  seen  from  those  counties,  and  the  county  of  Franklin.  I  knew  well 
the  character  of  the  Delegates  usually  sent  here  by  those  people.  Cautious,  intelli- 
gent and  patriotic,  they  sought  reform  for  the  protection  of  property,  and  the  security 
of  personal  rights  and  equality.  And  the  very  men  who  held  in  one  hand  the  peti- 
tion for  a  Convention,  brought  in  the  other  another  petition  to  diminish  disburse- 
ments of  public  treasure  and  to  retrench  expenses.  They  were  plain  men,  but  they 
haxl  the  sagacity  to  discern,  as  Mr.  Dunning  did,  in  maintaining  his  celebrated  reso- 
lution, 'Hhat  the  power  of  the  Crown  had  increased,  was  increasing,  and  ought  to 
be  diminished  that  reform  was  nothing  without  retrenchment  and  economy.  I 
know  well  that  those  people  looked  to  the  diminution  of  expenditure  and  to  lighten- 
ing the  burden  of  taxation.  Plad  they  imagined  that  all  this  thing  of  Convention 
and  reform  was  to  resolve  itself  into  a  grant  of  power  to  take  their  money  ad  lihihim 
and  ad  indejinitum,  they  would  have  done  as  we  did  in  Culpeper  :  they  would  have 
come  to  the  "  right  about.'"  For,  if  I  were  to  selet  t  sentinels  to  guard  the  purse  of 
the  State,  I  would  as  soon  take  them  from  that  quarter  of  Virginia,  as  from  any  other ; 
I  should  give  full  confidence  to  their  vigilance,  fidelity,  intelhgence  and  honesty.  I 
well  remember,  some  years  since,  that  one  of  the  gentlemen  from  that  quarter,  had 
even  the  name  of  the  watch-dog  of  the  Treasury.  And  I  speak  it  with  all  due  res- 
pect and  with  sincere  commendation,  that  such  representatives  often  make  the  best 
and  most  useful  public  servants.  Gentlemen  deceive  themselves  in  supposing  that 
the  people  are  prepared  to  throw  down  the  guards  of  prudence  and  self-love  which 
jpsually  defend  their  property  from  encroachment.  They  will  be  guided  by  experi- 
ence, rather  than  follow  the  lights  of  the  French  Revolution.  Lights  that  shone 
for  a  time  upon  the  path  of  despotism,  and  were  finally  extinguished  in  blood,  &c. 
&c.  &c. 

Mr.' Gordon  (of  Albemarle)  now  rose  and  said: 

That  it  would  be  presumptuous  in  him,  to  attempt  to  say  any  thing  calcjalated  to 
guide  tlie  Connnitiee  to  correct  decisions  on  the  important  subjects  on  which  they 
were  called  to  deliberate:  That  he  had,  however,  some  opinions  and  facts,  which 
he  felt  it  his  duty  to  submit  to  the  consideration  of  the  Committee,  that  they  might,  at 
least,  be  enabled  to  judge,  by  comparing  his  views  and  theirs,  hov/  much  he  might  be 
in  error,  or  that  he  migTit  derive  light  from  the  great  ability  which  distinguished  this 
Assembly. 

The  course  of  the  deba,te  had  seemed  to  him,  somewhat  beside  the  question  :  most 
of  the  arguments  in  favour  of  the  amendment,  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Cul- 
peper, (Mr.  Green,)  had  gone  the  full  length  in  opposition  to  all  reform  whatever; 
and  it  would  seem  to  a  by-stander,  that  the  gentlemen  had  not  been  called  on  to  re- 
commend amendments  to  the  existing  form  of  Government,  but  to  determine  M^iether 
there  should  be  a  Convention  called  or  not.  That  question  had  been  already  decided. 
A  majority  of  the  freeholders  <if  Virginia,  after  years  of  deliberation,  had  determined 
that  a  Convention  should  be  called  for  the  purpose  of  proposing  amendments  to  the 
existing  Constitution.  Public  opinion,  said  Mr.  G.,  cannot  be  misunderstood  on  that 
subject ;  unless,  indeed,  the  ingenuity  of  gentlemen,  shall  be  able  to  make  the  people. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


139 


(as  has  been  said.)  come  to  the  right  about :  and  persuade  us,  their  representatives,  to 
disregard  the  purposes  for  which  we  Avere  sent  here.  Are  there,  in  reahtj,  any  in- 
equahties  in  the  existing  Constitution  of  Virginia,  which  need  reform  To  me.  Sir,  it 
seems  evident  that  there  are.  and  inequalities  so  great,  tliat  they  cannot  longer  be 
borne  with.  They  must  be  corrected,  not.  Sir,  by  force  and  violence,  but  by  the  mild 
operation  of  public  opinion,  acting  through  its  appropriate  representation  on  tliis  floor. 
A  reform  is  due  to  the  character  of  Virginia  before  the  American  public. 

But,  Sir,  an  attempt  is  now  made,  in  the  modification  of  this  Constitution,  to  infuse 
into  it  a  new  principle,  unheard  of  till  now,  (so  far.  at  least,  as  my  knowledge  ex- 
tends,) in  any  free  Government:  a  principle  which  is  at  war  with  every  notion  we, 
'as  Americans,  have  been  taught  to  hold  sacred,  and  which  goes  to  make  the  elective 
power  quadrate  with  tcealtli.  The  design  is,  in  effect,  either  to  make  slaves  constitu- 
ents to  the  Legislature,  or  to  make  the  tax  paid  on  them  an  ingredient  in  Legislative 
power.  To  both  these  propositions,  I  have  strong  objections.  Sir,  the  plan  will  be 
utterly  unavailing  to  the  object  its  advocates  seek  to  accomplish  by  it.  If  the  conse- 
quences which  are  to  flow  from  granting  us  an  equality  of  rights,  are  really  such  as 
they  apprehend,  this  scheme  will  never  operate  to  prevent  the  evil. 

The  gentlemen  on  the  other  side  have  discussed  this  question,  as  if  the  injury  so 
much  dreaded  from  equal  rights  of  representation,  and  an  extension  of  the  right  of 
suftrage,  was  to  be  confined,  in  its  extent,  to  one  peculiar  part  of  Virginia  alone.  If 
the  white  basis  is  adopted,  the  most  grievous  oppression  must.  the_v1:hink,  ensue  to 
that  part  of  the  Commonwealth,  and  nothing  can  save  the  interests  of  the  majority  of 
the  wealth  of  the  State  from  the  danger  of  misrule,  when  the  power  shall  20  into' the 
hands  of  a  minority  possessing  little  wealth  or  influence.  But.  Sir,  what  are  the  facts 
of  the  case.^  For  it  is  not  my  purpose. -even  if  I  had  the  ability  vchich  some  other 
gentlemen  so  conspicuously  display,  to  indulge  in  beautiful  speculation  on  mere  ab- 
stract theories,  or  in  tiie  brilliancy  of  illustration  by  classical  allusions  to  history.  My 
view  of  this  subject  shall  be  altogether  practical.  I  purpose  to  enquire  how  Virginia 
can  be  rendered  most  happy  and  prosperous?  And  what  effect  is  hktly  to  ensue,  from 
the  proposed  alterations  in  our  Constitution? 

The  State  of  Virginia  contains  one  hundred  and  five  counties  and  four  borouo-hs, 
having  representation.  These  counties  are  very  various  in  their  dimensions,  in^the 
comparative  fertility  of  their  soil,  as  well  as  in  the  character  of  their  respective  popu- 
lation. The  variety  in  these  respects,  is  very  great  indeed.  Some  of  these  counties, 
have  more  people  than,  by  the  present  system,  are  fairl\-  represented  in  the  Legisla- 
ture ;  and  have  this  redundancy  on  any  theory  gentlemen  may  be  pleased  to  adopt, 
whether  we  go  on  the  white  basis  exclusively,  or  on  the  compomid  basis  of  popula- 
tion and  taxation,  or  even  on  the  plan  of  giving  representation  to  all  the  blacks.  Nor  is 
it  a  fact  that  these  diversities  and  discrepancies  are  scattered  about  the  State,  here  and 
there  only,  at  wide  distances  apart;  but,  on  the  contrary,  large  portions  of  the  State, 
and  numerous  counties  lying  contiguous  to  each  other,  present  a  spectacle  of  these 
great  and  striking  inequalities.  The  question  is,  whether  we  shall,  soberly  and  calm- 
ly, set  ourselves  to  remedy  such  a  state  of  thino-s ;  or  whether  we  shall  press  a  subject 
that  is  calculated  to  distress  us  all,  and  practically  to  divide  us  in  feeling,  by  first  teach- 
ing us  that  we  are  divided  in  interest :  the  result  of  which  can  only  be  to  bring  us  to 
a  conclusion,  which  all  true  friends  of  Virginia  cannot  but  deprecate,  and  which  I 
hope  never  to  see. 

Do  gentlemen  ask  us  for  facts  ?  Sir,  I  state  this  as  a  fact,  for  the  truth  of  which  I 
appeal  to  the  documents  furnished  us  from  the  Auditor's  office.  From  the  head  of 
tide-water,  (leaving  out  the  counties  of  Spottsylvania.  Caroline,  Hanover,  the  county 
of  my  friend,  Mr.  iNIorris,  and  the  one  which  gave  the  first  impulse  to  the  revolution; 
Henrico,  Chesterfield  and  the  City  of  Richmond.)  what  is  the  amount  of  population 
and  taxation  as  far  west  as  the  Blue  Ridge  ?  This  region  contains  a  large  proportion 
of  the  white  population  of  the  State :  it  wants  but  little  of  containino-  a  majority  of 
the  whole  number  of  slaves:  it  pays  a  share  of  fhe  revenue  greatly  drsproportioiiate 
to  its  present  representation ;  and,  if  taken  in  connexion  with  the  limestone  vallev, 
(which  I  consider  as  appertaining  to  the  eastern  portion  of  the  State,  in  all  essential 
interests,)  the  two  together-,  by  the  Census  of  1820,  containing  a  majority  of  the  total 
lohite  population  ;  a  viajority  also  of  the  slaves  ;  and  a  majority  of  the  taxation  likewise, 
by  a  balance  of:  ^17.000.  Well,  Sir,  what  is  the  representation  enjoyed  by  that  por- 
tion of  the  State  on  this  floor  ?  The  fourteen  counties  of  the  Valley  have  twenty- 
eight  members.  The  region  from  the  head  of  tide  to  the  Blue  Ridg'e.  have  twenty- 
nine  counties  and  fifty-eight  members,  making  in  all  eio-hty-six.  Thus,  Sir,  we  see 
tha.t  in  a  House  containing  two  hundred  and  fourteen  Delegates,  a  region  of  the 
State  comprising  a  majority  of  whites,  blacks,  and  taxation,  is  represented  but  by 
eighty-six  members  ;  leaving  thus  a  majority  of  thirty-eight  members  in  the  Legisla- 
ture, actually  against  a  majority  of  the  whole  population  and  the  whole  taxation  of 
the  State.  Gentlemen  ask  for  facts  :  here  they  are.  I  do  not  discuss  the  sectional 
interests  of  these  relative  portions  of  the  State  :  Would  to  God  that  I  could  consider 


140 


DEBATES    OF   TrIE  CONVENTION. 


tha  interest  of  them  all  as  one  and  the  same  :  but  these  views  forced  themselves  on 
my  mind  in  consequenca  ct"  the  course  pursued  on  the  other  side. 

Nor  is  thij  all  :  t:i3  grossv.st  inequaUt  e.'S  present  theuiselves  to  our  view  in  that 
part  oi  tlie  IState,  wh.ch  extends  ironi  the  head  of  t  de  to  the  ocean  :  inequalities 
gi-iriuT  indeed,  when  the  two  parts  of  the  State  are  compared  together.  The  Sena- 
torial District  of  which  Ricl5niond  icrms  a  part,  and  one  other,  have  in  the  House  of 
Dcltrgates,  exclusive  of  Richmond,  twenty-nine,  and  inclus.ve  oi  Richmond,  thirty 
Delegates.  Thus,  while  five  counties,  at  the  loot  of  the  Ridge,  paying  a  tax  of 
$3/.63J,  have  ten  Delegates,  tliese  two  Senatorial  Districts  have  twtnty-nine  Dele- 
gates, and  p-^y  a  tax  of  ;>2.45()  only  ;  tliat  being  the  actual  amount  of  taxation  paid 
by  the  counti<  s  ;  R.chm  .nd,  which  pays  ^  Jd,C7c5,  being  withdrawn. 

Sir,  I  d  )  n  t  say,  tliat  the  cf  untry  beL.w  tide-water,  (God  bless  the  country  bolow 
tide-water,  and  all  Virgin, a  !)  dees  not  pay  its  lull  proportion  of  taxes  ;  but  I  ask 
v>rlietht!r  tha  very  able  oppo  it. on  on  this  floor,  had  not  better  unite  with  us,  in  devi- 
sing an  J  perfe  cting  a  feas.ble  plan  for  the  amendment  of  the  Constitution,  than  obsti- 
nately to  daiea,t  everj'  plan  th  it  can  be  proposed. 

S  r,  I  have  made  other  calculations,  In  ni  which  it  wiU  appear,  that  the  representa- 
tion in  the  extreme  west  of  Virginia  is  redundant;  that  that  in  the  extreme  east,  is 
alsD  reJund  mt ;  and  that  while  both  these  parts  of  the  State  will,  it  the  basis  of 
white  population  shall  be  adapted,  lose  a  porticn  of  their  rt prestntaticn,  the  middle 
region  <  f  tiie  State,  which  lies  between  them,  will  gain  as  much  as  they  lose.  The 
strength  will  thus  be  carried  to  the  centre,  and  if  we  sulftr  death,  it  will  be  frcm  a 
disease  o   the  heart,  for  which  there  is  no  remedy. 

Agret-ably  to  the  Census  of  Ib'^O,  the  whole  white  population  of  the  State  was 
603,  ;dl  whites  ;  425,148  slaves,  and  the  whole  taxes  in  tlie  year  lfc28,  was  $  423,r.63. 

The  people  west  of  the  Alleghany  mountains  were  r.53,ll2  whites,  ]3,3t6  slaves, 
and  they  pay  ^  3;J,01j9  in  taxes.  They  have  at  present  twt  nty-six, counties  and  fifty- 
two  Delegates ;  but,  on  the  basis  of  representation  by  white  numbers,  they  would 
have  forty-seven  only,  five  less  than  tliey  hare  ot  present. 

The  Valley  between  the  Alleghany  and  the  Blue  Ridge,  had  a  white  population  of 
121.0.;6,  and  29,785  slaves  ;  they  pay  ^  G5,r)37  taxes;  they  have  fourteen  counties 
and  twenty-eight  Delegates.  If  equalized,  they  would  have  forty-two.  There  are  in 
the  region  of  the  State  above  the  head  of  tide- water  to  the  Blue  Ridge,  187,186 
whites,  and  205,GOO  slaves  ;  and  it  pays  $  1(J4,17U  tax.  They  have  twenty-nine  coun- 
ties and  fifty-eight  Delegates,  and  are  entitled,, to  sixty-six  Delegates,  eight  more  than 
at  present.  The  country  below  the  head  of  tide-water  had  IGl ,687  whites,  176,4C6 
slaves,  and  pays  $  157,756  in  taxes  ;  they  have  thirty-six  Counties  and  four  boroughs, 
and  seventy-six  Delegates.  They  are  entitled  to  fifty-seven  only,  making  a  difference 
of  nineteen. 

I  have  made  other  cnlculations,  wliich  go  to  shew,  that  there  is  no  material  differ- 
ence, in  the  result,  between  basing  the  representation  on  Federal  numbers,  and  on  a 
compound  ratio  of  population  and  taxation.  There  will  be  not  more  than  a  differ- 
ence of  two  Representatives  in  a  ITcuse  of  Delegates  containing  one  hundred  and 
twenty  members. 

,  Novv^,  Sir,  I  ask  if  it  be  wise  to  equalize  the  rej)resentaticn  of  tlie  State  on  any 
principle  :  If  it  be,  tlien  I  deny  that  there  is  any  other  principle  on  which  it  can  be 
fairly  done,  but  on  a  m-ijority  of  the  free  white  inljabitants. 

Property,  Sir,  inuny  just  soheuie  of  representation,  is  not  to  be  regarded  but  as 
claiming  the  protection  of  the  scciety.  It  is  in  -aristocracy,  that  the  argument  is  urged 
which  insists  oh  giving  it  political  power  as  possessed  by  indivldiiais.  When  you  ad- 
mit that,  you  make  a  Hovse  of  Li  rds ;  you  give  the  rich  men  a  power  Avhich  he  could 
not  claim  in  the  Government  without  the  influence  of  his  wealth.  But,  gentlemen 
prr  p  )se  to  g've  this  influence  to  pr  perty,  not  as  propertj'  in  the  hands  of  individuals, 
but  as  lying  in  certain,  sections  and  sub-d  visions  of  the  State  ;  and  does  this  bet- 
ter ths  matter.'  N.ot  in  principle,  for  the  princ'ple  remains  the  same  ;  not  in  prac- 
tice, f  r  there  its  only  effect  cm  be  (and  is)  to  produce  heart-burnings  and  jejslousies 
of  section  against  section,  which  is  even  worse  than  of  man  against  man.  Because 
one  part  of  the  State  has  fewer  slaves  than  the  residue,  will  y(  u  nsake  your  basis  of 
renresentation  rest  upon  that  sort  of  property,  of  all  others,  the  most  objectionable  ? 
Whit  nmst.be  the  efft  ct  of  such  a  policy  It  must,  it  will  produce  discontent  every 
wh-re.  save  only  among  the  slave-holders  themselves. 

Sir,  I  thought  it  unwise,  and  I  feel  that  it  is  most  unpleasant,  to  bring  this  sub- 
ject into  the  discussion.  I  tried  to  prevent  it  last  winter  in  the  Legislature  :  but  it  is 
forced  upon  \is,  and  we  must  meet  it :  the  gentlemen  will  not  let  us  avoid  it. 

I  ask.  what  good  would  it  do  to  Virginia,  were  we  to  admit  representation  on  the 
basis  of  the  whole  black  population  ^  Gentlemen  argue  as  if  the  whole  of  the  eas- 
tern part  of  Virginia  consisted  solely  of  slave-holders  ;  but  so  far  from  this  being  the 
case,  1  think  it  possible,  and  very  probable,  that  there  is,  even  in  that  portion  of  the 
State,  a  majority  who  are  not  slave-holders.    If  that  be  the  fact,  cr  any  thing  near 


DEBATES    OF   THE  COKYENTION. 


141 


the  fact,  do  they  not  see  that,  adopt  what  numerical  basis  you  please,  the  prevailing, 
moral  influence  of  the  State  must  be  against  this  class  of  persons  and  the  sort  of 
property  they  hold  ?  And  if  power  is  given  to  the  slave-holders  with  a  view  to  pro- 
tect their  slave  property,  will  not  the  non-slave-holding  portion  of  the  community 
feel  it  their  interest  to  make  the  slaves  pay  for  their  own  protection  ?  Will  not  the 
non-slave-holders  in  east  Virginia  immediately  have  a  common  feeling  with  those  in 
v/estern  Virginia  ?  Sir,  whatever  may  be  the  natural  passions  of  men,  one  thing  is 
very  certain,  that  there  is  no  very  peculiar  sympathy  betv^^een  non-slave-holders  and 
slaves.  They  will  utterly  oppose  a  principle  which  confers  on  this  species  of  preperty 
any  political  pov/er  in  the  practical  Government  of  Virginia. 

Sir,  my  own  portion  of  the  country  has  a  very  deep  interest  in  this  matter  ;  and  I 
am  as  anxious  as  any  one  can  be,  to  have  tlieir  interest  secured,  and  their  apprehen- 
sions quieted ;  but  I  would  effect  this  in  a  very  different  mode  from  that  suggested  by 
some  of  the  very  able  and  honourable  men  with  v/hom,  in  time  past,  it  has  been  my 
pride  to  act.  Sir,  do  you  not  perceive,  that  if  property  be  your  basis,  you  cannot  ex- 
tend the  I'ight  of  suffrage  Do  not  gentlemen  see,  that  an  extended  right  of  suf- 
frage is  the'  circle  which  includes  all  these  powers  ?  Do  they  not  perceive,  that  in 
imp3.rting  power  to  make  laws  and  to  vote  for  representatives,  if  they  extend  that 
pov/er  beyond  the  freeholders,  they  instantly  get  up  an  interest  in  the  State  which  is 
hostile  to  the  very  foundation  of  their  scheme,  and  hostile  to  any  Government  that 
shall  be  founded  upon  it .''  Sir,  this  is  not  an  interest  to  be  laughed  at  and  despised. 
Shall  we  not  still  be  assailed  year  after  yezx.  with  petitions  from  the  north  to  ameho- 
rate  the  condition  of  the  slave  population  ?  That  interference  we  may  well  despise  : 
but  if  we  get  up  this  spirit  at  home,  among  our  ov/n  people,  and  your  State  shall  be 
sundered  and  severed  in  affection  by  those  mountains,  what  I  once  looked  to,  as  to 
the  barriers  of  her  strength  and  safety  :  Sir,  I  say,  if  they  get  up  this  spirit  on  the 
other  side  of  those  mountains,  will  it  not  come  over  ?  Aye,  and  spread  too,  among 
all  that  portion  of  the  community  who  are  not  slave-holders  If  you  extend  the  right 
of  suffrage,  will  not  persons  thus  discontented  and  thus  made  inimical  to  the  slave- 
holding  interest,  vote  for  the  man  who  w\\\  lay  the  highest  tax  upon  slaves How  do 
you  now  retain  that  description  of  property  in  perfect  safety  ?  I  answer,  by  the  pow- 
er of  the  society  itself.  Yes,  by  that  composed,  silent, but tremend(ms  power,  which 
resides  in  the  free  white  popul-ition  of  the  State:  that  pov/er  which  defends  all,  and 
without  noise,  or  apparent  effort,  keeps  all  things  still  in  Virginia:  and  if  you  adopt 
any  other  foundation  of  power,  than  the  white  people  of  the  State,  will  not  jealousies 
and  excitement  exist  towards  that  species  of  property  which  you  thus  endeavour  to 
protect,  in  all  those  who  are  not  its  owners 

If  you  do  not  extend  the  right  of  suSrage,  most  painful  discontent  will  ensue,  and 
if  you  do  extend  it.  you  put  it  into  the  power  of  those  who  exercise  suffrage,  and  who 
are  not  slave-owners  to  oppress  that  property  the  more  relentlessly  because  a  peculiar 
power  is  claimed  for  it  in  the  Government,  and  when,  in  truth,  its  guardianship 
springs  in  a  degree  from  the  very  numbers  whose  political  power  is  diminished,  by 
making  that  property  or  taxes  from  it,  an  ingredient  in  the  representative  power  of  the 
State.  One  would  think,  that  in  a  free  State,  each  man  would  have  protected  along 
with  his  person,  such  property  as  his  genius,  talents,  or  industry  might  have  obtained 
for  him:  but  this  slave  property  is  like  having  the  wolf  by  the  ear ;  you  do  not 
know  whether  to  hold  him  fast  or  to  let  him  go."  It  is  a  stumbling  block  in  our  way  : 
it  balks  us  in  all  our  deliberations,  and  we  seem  almost  at  a  stand,  whether  we  shall 
adhere  or  not,  to  the  principles  of  freedom  and  equal  rights,  for  which  our  fathers 
bled. 

I  ask  whether  there  is  any  thing  in  this  doctrine  of  a  compound  basis  of  represen- 
tation, like  those  doctrines  of  freedom  for  which  Virginia  has  alwaj^s  contended }  I 
will  not  go  for  examples  to  English  history :  my  recollection  of  it,  is  too  general  to 
enable  me  to  go  into  its  particular  detail.  But  I  will  go  to  the  free  Constitutions  of 
our  own  happy  countrj',  and  I  ask  whether  there  is  anj'  tiling  in  this  principle  calcu- 
lated to  aid  the  reputation  ever  enjoyed  by  this  ancient  Commonv/eaith,  for  her  zeal- 
ous attachment  to  the  true  principles  of  Constitutional  liberty  ? 

Gentlemen  have  perplexed  themselves  with  abstract  disquisitions  on  the  rights  of 
mnjorities,  and  they  point  us  to  instances,  where, in  the  Federal  and  other  Constitutions, 
the  majority  is  excluded  from  a  controlling  power  :  these  instances  we  well  knew  and 
remembered  ;  but  they  are  only  exceptions,  and  exceptions  do  but  confirm  the  gene- 
ral rule  to  which  they  apply  :  yet  genUemen  would  make  these  cases  of  particular  ex- 
ception, to  give  the  principle  on  which  to  lay  the  foundations  of  our  Constitution  : 
Sir,  what  would  this  be  but,  in  the  language  of  an  eloquent  man,  "  to  make  the  medi- 
cine of  the  State,  its  da.ily  food 

The  veto  of  the  President;  the  provision  requiring  majorities  of  two-thirds  of  the 
Legislature,  and  others  of  the  like  kind  are  relied  on,  as  proof  that  we  are  not  to  look 
to  a  majority  of  the  people  for  an  expression  of  tlie  public  will,  but  must  get  a  will 


142 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


made  up  of  slavery  and  freedom,  of  money  and  free  will :  and  this  is  to  be  out  prO" 
tection. 

I  had  hoped,  gentlemen  would  have  reserved  this  proposition  for  a  mixed  basis,  till 
we  came  in  reo-ular  course  to  consider  the  subject  of  representation  in  tlie  Senate. 

The  Senate,  it  seems,  must  be  held  as  a  check  on  the  lower  House  :  it  is  not  to  be 
itself  a  movino-  active  body,  but  is  to  serve  as  a  curb  upon  the  enthusiasm  of  the  other 
branch  of  the  Legislature.  But  little  did  1  expect  that  it  was  to  be  proposed  to  us,  to 
make  the  first  branch  of  our  Legislature,  unlike  any  other  in  the  Union,  unless  it  be 
where  one  of  the  slave-holding  States,  have  copied  the  Federal  ratio  of  tln-ee-fifths  of  the 
black  population.  But  there  is  no  analogy  between  the  case  which  gave  birth  to  that 
ratio,  and  the  case  now  before  us.  That  was  a  treaty  of  one  sovereignty  with  ano- 
ther. A  Constitution  was  then  being  constructed,  which  was  to  combine  different 
and  totally  distinct  societies  under  one  general  Government,  for  their  common  bene- 
fit. It  was  a  Government  of  limited  powers,  the  residue  of  power  being  retained  by 
those  sovereignties  as  such.  It  is  said,  that  able  statesmen  have  doubted  the  wisdom 
of  that  provision  in  the  Federal  Constitution  ;  and  I  myself  shall  regret  it,  if  it  be 
made  a  precedent,  to  infuse  an  aristocratic  ingredient  into  our  State  Constitutions. 
The  structure  of  the  Senate  of  the  United  States,  where  States  large  and  small  have 
equal  representation,  is  brought  forward  as  fiirnishing  a  proof,  that  a  majorlt}^  of  num- 
bers does  not,  in  fact,  rule  in  this  Republic.  But  the  reason  of  the  equality  of  re- 
presentation, while  numbers  were  so  unequal,  is  manifest ;  the  Delegates  on  that  floor 
do  not  represent  numbers  at  all ;  they  have  nothing  to  do  with  numbers  ;  tliey  repre- 
sent sovereignties  5  and  the  sovereignty  of  a  State,  does  not  depend  on  its  dimensions. 

Gentlemen  have  denied  the  right  of  the  majority  to  rule  in  part  from  the  practical 
difficulties  in  applying  the  rule  ;  and  they  have  pointed  us  to  the  minorities  in  tlie 
Districts,  as  often  being,  if  united,  sufiicient  to  contradict  the  vote  obtained,  by  ad- 
mitting a  mere  plurality  to  decide  an  election.  Admitting  this  to  be  so,  it  does  not 
reach  the  point :  for  I  have  not  said  either  that  the  voice  of  the  majority  does  always 
in  practice  prevail,  nor  that  the  majority  always  does  what  is  right;  but  I  ask  gentle- 
men to  point  out  a  safer  depository  for  the  ruling  power. 

Allusions  have  been  made  to  some  of  the  Governments  of  antiquity,  and  to  that  '  - 
of  England,  as  supporting  the  opposite  view.  But,  Sir,  what  is  this  Government  ; 
of  England,  to  which  gentlemen  so  confidently  appeal  ?  Has  it  not  at  length  be- 
come (notwithstanding  the  original  freedom  of  its  Constitution)  little  else  than  a  mi- 
litary despotism  ?  The  people,  it  is  true,  submit;  but  take  the  arms  out  qt  the  hands 
of  the  soldiery,  and  how  long  would  that  submission  last  ?  I  suspect  they  would  soon 
find  out  a  very  summary  mode  of  paying  their  national  debt.  But  the  raw  head  and 
bloody  bones  of  the  French  revolution  is  ever  and  anon  made  to  pass  before  us,  and 
we  are  reminded,  as  soon  as  we  propose  the  least  approach  toward  a  greater  equaliza- 
tion of  rights,  of  the  political  and  moral  earthquake  tliat  shook  that  ancient  empire  to 
its  foundations.  Sir,  I  think  there  may  be  drawn  from  that  very  revolution  a  salutary 
lesson  on  our  side  of  the  question.  The  evils  of  that  great  convulsion  did  not  grow 
out  of  the  misrule  of  tlie  rmjoritij  alone,  but  out  of  the  resistance  of  a  minority.  They 
refused  to  submit  to  the  principle  for  which  we  contend,  and  rejected  the  concessions  • 
offered  them  by  the  mild  spirit  of  their  King  ;  and  it  is  not  to  be  wondered  at,  that,  in 
the  issue,  the  will  of  the  majority  should  prevail.  It  is  very  true  that  there  succeed- 
ed a  more  settled  state  of  things  under  Bonaparte  ;  but  though  the  country  was  to  ap- 
pearance quiet,  it  was  not  the  calm  of  contentment,  but  of  coerced  submission  ;  the 
spirit  of  liberty  was  still  throbbing  in  French  veins  ;  and  the  issue  has  been,  that  after 
desolating  all  Europe,  and  laying  waste  in  its  course  almost  all  the  Kingdoms  of  the 
Old  World,  this  very  French  revolution  has  terminated  in  advancing  the  rights  of  man. 
It  has  given  to  France  a  more  limited  monarchy  ;  a  free  press,  a  representative  cham- 
ber, and  the  trial  by  jury. 

But,  Sir,  have  we  any  proud  and  haughty  nobility,  for  whose  pleasure  the  yeoman- 
ry are  to  be  taxed  at  will  ?  A  fat  and  indolent  privileged  order,  who  roll  in  luxury  at 
the  cost  of  the  laboring  classes  of  the  community.^  No,  Sir.  There  are  none  who 
propose  such  a  thing.  What  then  has  the  French  revolution  to  do  with  a  case  no  way 
analogous  to  tliat  of  France 

Various  other  topics  have  been  introduced  into  the  discussion,  which,  in  my  appre- 
hension, have  no  legitimate  connexion  with  it ;  (but  I  do  not  pretend  to  judge  for 
others,  or  to  cast  the  least  censure  on  them.)  And  among  others  the  subject  of  internal 
improvement  has  been  conjured  up  ;  (I  should  not  say  conjured  up,  for  it  sprang  up 
in  our  way.)  And  gentlemen  oppose  the  white  basis  of  representation  on  the  ground 
that  if  it  be  adopted,  the  lower  country  will  be  heavily  taxed  for  objects  they  do  not 
approve,  and  the  entire  benefit  of  which  will  be  enjoyed  by  the  west.  That  this  sub- 
ject is  known  to  be  a  favorite  one  among  gentlemen  who  reside  in  that  part  of  the 
State.  But,  I  ask,  was  that  attempt  at  internal  improvement  which  has  been  made,  a 
western  project  ?  Its  advocates  and  the  engineers,  I  own,  deluded  me  when  I  first 
entered  the  Legislature ;  they  told  us  we  could  unite  the  eastern  and  western  parts  of  the 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONTEXTIOX. 


143 


State  at  a  small  expense,,  and  I  reflected  that  we  had  a  fund  provided  expressly  for  ob- 
jects of  that  character,  and  the  basis  of  which  was  vdselr  laid  in  the  principle,  thatin- 
dividual  enterprize  was  first  to  be  called  out.  and  then  aided  by  the  hand  of  the  Gov- 
ernment. B  at.  Sir,  by  whom  was  that  wise  restriction  on  the  apphcation  of  this  fund 
ruptured  ?  Was  it  by  srentlemen  from  the  west .'  Or  was  it  not  by  what  is  familiarly 
denominated  the  James  Ptiver  interest  ?  "Was  it  not  they  who  told  us  that  the  object 
was  one  of  such  vast  importance,,  that  it  ought  to  be  made  an  exception  from  the  rule, 
and  that  a  sum  ou^ht  to  be  raised  for  that  object  expressly,  without  reference  to  the 
peculiar  constitution  of  that  fund  ?  I  am  castinGr  no  injurious  imputations  upon  the 
gentlemen  :  God  forbid !  I  know  they  were  all  honorable  and  high-minded  men, 
who  were  sincerely  pursuing  what  they  considered  the  best  means  of  improving  the 
State. 

But  what  has  this  question  of  internal  improvement  to  do  with  the  question  of  a 
white  or  a  compoimd  basis  for  representation  ?  Nothing  at  all.  Sir  :  Yet,  they  them- 
selves have  introduced  it.  and  I  must  be  suffered  to  go  a  little  into  it,  by  way  of 
reply.  The  gentlemen  got  httle  by  their  scheme  :  all  the  money,  I  beheve,  has  been 
sunk  in  James  River.  They  made  large  loans  to  effect  it,  and  now  those  loans  have 
to  be  re-paid,  the  country  has  come  to  a  halt.  The  system  of  internal  improvement 
cannot  move  a  peg.  I  Jmpw  that  the  distinguished  Convention  held  at  Charlottesville 
was  got  up  with  a  view  to  revive  the  interest  of  the  subject  in  the  pubhc  mind  :  and 
what  has  been  the  result  ?  I  believe  the  gentlemen  must  own  that  it  has  been  any  thing 
else,  rather  than  a  revival  of  the  public  confidence  in  behaff  of  internal  improvement. 
Unless  these  projects  axe  carried  on  elsewhere  in  a  very  different  manner  from  what 
they  have  been  here,  they  will  ever  result  in  mere  jobs,  wherever  the  pubhc  or  the 
Goi^ernmeat  hive  any  concern  in  them.  The  meeting  at  Charlottesville  has  produced 
but  very  little  effect  in  favor  of  the  subj'eet.  very  httle  indeed,  Sir  :  insomuch  that 
you  cannot,  at  this  day.  get  the  people  of  Virginia  to  consent  to  be  taxed  for  works  of 
internal  improvement  any  where,  be  it  east  or  west,  north  or  south.  Freeholders  or 
non-freeholders  ;  ah  reject  the  proposition.  The  only  way  in  which  they  can  advance 
one  step  is  by  loans,  and  that  mode  I  shall  ever  hereafter  oppose. 

3Iy  friend  from  Hanover  (Mr.  Morris),  when  tlie  gigantic  scheme  was  first  present- 
ed to  incorporate  a  Joint  Stock  Company,  in  which  Virginia  and  other  States  were 
parties  with  individuals  and  the  United,  States  to  make  the  Chesapeake  and  Ohio 
canal,  supported  it  with  great  effect  against  my  friend  from  Norfolk  Borough  (Mr. 
1/oyall)  and  mvself.  Yet.  notwithstanding  this,  such  was  the  anxiety  of  the  Virginia 
Legislature  not  to  connect  the  improvement  of  the  State  with  Federal  authority,  that 
the  bill  did  not  pass  until  a  provision  was  made  attempting  to  limit  the  Federal  power, 
within  the  boundary  of  the  District  of  Columbia,  as  to  its  subscription. 

Reference  had  been  made  to  an  application  to  the  Legislature,  for  certain  improve- 
ments in  the  Shenandoah  :  but  what  argmnent  could  be  drawn  from  a  mere  apphca- 
tion. wliich  was  never  granted,  he  could  not  perceive. 

My  friend  from  Orange  (Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour),  for  whose  talents  and  character,  I  en- 
tertain the  most  exalted  regard,  has  informed  us,  that  he  is  against  mere  experiments^ 
and  in  favor  of  experience  alone  ;  and  so  am  I  against  experiments,  when  they  are 
of  a  wild  and  visionary  character.  But  we  must  not  forget,  that  it  is  from  experiment 
alone,  that  experience  is  obtained  ;  and  that  the  most  valuable  institutions  of  the 
cotmtry,  that  our  whole  free  Government  itseh",  is  but  the  result  of  an  experiment, 
which  has  happily  succeeded,  and  has.  as  I  fondly  trust,  converted  this  land  into  the 
abode  of  freemen,  to  endless  ages.  Yet.  the  very  semie  arguments  might  have  been 
urged  against  that  experiment,  as  are  urged  now  against  this.  It  was  a  fearful 
conflict  we  engaged  in,  against  the  greatest  nation  in  the  world:  the  first  in  arts, 
and  arms,  and  liberal  science,  and  all  that  can  ennoble  or  adorn  the  name  of  man. 
That  was  a  fearnil  experiment :  and  the  heart  of  the  firmest  man  might  well  pause, 
if  not  tremble,  at  adopting  it.  But,  Sir.  is  there  any  thing  fearfiil  in  the  Httle  expe- 
riment we  are  now  going  to  make  .'  Almost  all  the  States  have  re-niodelled  thefr 
Constitutions  :  and  has  any  violence  or  public,  calamity  ensued I  have  heard  of 
none.  In  the  old  world,  indeed,  you  cannot  take  up  at  pleasure  the  foundations  of 
your  Government,  and  improve  its  form.  ^Miy  Because  the  principles  of  aristo- 
cracy and  monarchy,  are  there  infused  throughout  the  whole  system.  A  hundred  ranks 
of  dependent  officers,  are  interested  m  upholding  the  existing  abuses,  and  keepinsT  down 
the  people  :  and  if  the  people  obtain  a  mitigation  of  their  evils,  they  must  rise  in 
their  might,  like  the  strong  man,  and  tear  down  the  temple  wliich  has  become  their 
prison.  But,  doesun  argument  from  that  state  of  things,  apply  here,  where  we  in- 
habit a  free  State,  and  are  surrounded  by  twenty-three  other  States,  equally  free  ?  Are 
arguments  of  this  sort  to  appal  us  ?  Is  there  any  demoniacal  spirit  ofone  abroad  in  the 
Commonwealth,  so  that  there  is  nothing  like  justice  or  faith  amono-  men  Suspicion, 
it  seems,  is  to  be  the  order  of  the  day  :  and  jealousy  the  only  safe  foundation  for  a 
civil  community.  Sir,  men  do  not  associate  in  communities,  because  they  suspect, 
but  because  they  Igvs  each  other  :  because  society  is  necessary  to  the  heart,  and  man 


144 


DEBATES    OF   THS  CONVENTION. 


is  a  savage  without  it.  It  is  only  when  society  has  long  been  established,  that  the 
spirit  of  selfishness  makes  man  a  misanthrope,  and  persuades  him  to  deny,  that  true 
*'  Sfclf-iove  and  social,  are  the  same."  No,  iSir.  All  the  suspicion  we  ought  to  che- 
rish, in  laying  the  foundations  of  our  new  Constitution,  is  such  as  will  teach  us  to  be 
very  jealous,  lest  so  much  as  a  grain  of  aristocracy  or  monarchy,  should  any  where 
be  found  in  it.  Let  us  have  no  Nobles,  no  Kings  ;  but  give  us,  and  our  children,  the 
equal  rights  of  men. 

Sir,  if  we  shall  fail  in  agreeing  to  any  amendment  to  the  Constitution,  and  shall 
return  to  those  who  sent  us  here,  with  nothing  in  our  hands,  v/hat  must  be  the  con- 
sequence Discontent,  division,  public  confusion.  Sir,  it  must  happen.  An  excite- 
ment Vv'ill  take  place,  which  cannot  be  allayed.  The  people  expect  that  something 
shall  be  done.  They  expect,  that  the  basis  of  representation  of  the  State  shall  be 
equalized,  and  the  right  of  suffrage  extended  :  and  they  will  be  deeply  dissatisfied,  if 
it  is  not  done.  I  said,  that  you  could  not  extend  the  right  of  suflrage,  and  engraft 
this  principle  of  a  compound  basis  into  your  Constitution :  and  none  are,  or  can  be 
consistent,  but  those  who  oppose  the  whole.  For,  tlie  very  moment  3'ou  extend  the 
right  of  suffrage,  you  grant  a  power,  which,  if  the  white  basis  is  rejected,  will  call 
another  Convention.  And,  Sir,  permit  me  to  say,  that  the  calrnness  vvith  which  we 
have  met,  and  the  mutual  respect  and  decorum,  which  distinguish  the  present  bcdy, 
sh&w  clearly,  that  we  are  in  no  danger  of  that  bloody  sword,  which  was  so  omincmsly 
brandished  over  us,  by  the  gentleman  from  Hanover,  (Mr.  Morris)  ;  but,  if  we  insist 
on  what  the  people  disapprove,  we  shall  have  east  and  west,  lowlands  and  highlands, 
unite  in  the  call  of  another  Convention,  v/ho  will  put  out  the  obnoxious  principle, 
and  then  the  just  rights  of  the  community  will  every  where  prevail. 

And  is  there  any  thing  to  forbid  this  equalization  of  rights.''  If  it  shall  prevail,  the 
majority  will  still  remain  below  the  mountains  :  In  a  House  of  one  hundred  and  twen- 
ty, there  will  be  nineteen  more  Delegates  from  the  eastern,  than  from  the  western 
side  of  the  Blue  Ridge.  I  do  not  go  on  the  speculations  of  the  gentleman  from  Brooke, 
(Mr.  Doddridge.)  I  do  not  believe,  that  the  majority  v^dll  ever  be  found  beyond  the 
mountain,  unless  the  policy  of  the  Old  Dominion  shall  be  to  encourage  the  growth  of 
the  black  population,  and  discourage  that  of  the  v/hite.  I  know,  indeed,  the  immense 
tract  of  mountainous  country  which  the  State  possesses ;  and  I  rejoice  that  she  does 
possess  it.  It  is  her  impregnable  security  ;  a  stronger  barrier  than  the  Balkan.  But 
it  is  a  region,  v/hich  never  can  possess  a  popidation  so  dense,  as  that  below  the  moun- 
tains; nothing  like  it.  V/eil,  Sir,  this  negro  property  (it  is  very  disagreeable  to  me 
to  be  obliged  to  touch  the  subject,  but  .the  fault  is  not  mine;  it  lies  in  my  way,  and  I 
cannot  avoid  it ;)  this  negro  property  has  increased,  is  increasing,  and  calls  for  the 
deepest  consideration.  I  intend  no  idle  appeal  to  the  fears  of  Virginia;  I  know  what 
the  old  Virginans  are  too  v/ell ;  a  more  gallant  people  is  not  on  the  earth :  the  only 
fear  they  know,  is  the  dread  of  a  dishonorable  action.  But  what  I  state  are  facts. 
There  exists  below  the  iiead  of  tide -water,  a  mass  of  that  population,  which  besides 
23,000  free  blacks,  contains  150,000"^  slaves.  There  they  are.  Sir..  The  Colonization 
Society  has  failed  to  remove  them.  You  cannot  get  them  to  go  out  of  Virginia;  and 
I  think  they  would  be  blockheads  if  they  did,  living  as  comfortably  as  thej'-  do.  This 
black  population  is  fast  increasing.  The  w-hite  population  is  nearly  stationary.  There 
lies  a  wide-spread  region  of  country,  as  fan*  and  i'ertile,  and  every  way  desirable,  as 
any  on  wliich  the  sun  shines  :  and  when  we  contemplate  its  situation,  to  what  conclu- 
sion are  we  naturally  led?  To  this.  Sir:  that  the  whole  tide  of  its  population,  both 
black  and  white,  is  moving  with  a  steady  but  gradual  current,  to  the  west,  and  the 
time  must,  therefore,  come  vi^^hen  tliere  v/ill  be  in  the  residue  of  the  State,  a  most  de- 
cided majority  against  the  tide-water  country.  Now,  I  ask,  whether  it  is  not  better  to 
have  this  majority  as  friends,  animated  by  a  devoted  attnclunent  to  their  brethren  (not- 
v/ithstanding  a  certain  division  on  the  details  of  the  Defence  Bill,)  than  to  irritate 
them  into  a  state  of  animosity,  so  that  no  reliance  can  be  placed  upon  them  in  the 
time  of  Vv^ar 

I  claimed  the  Valley  as  an  Eastern  country  ;  and  I  did  so  on  the  ground  taken  by 
the  gentlemair  from  Fauquier  (Mr.  Scott.)  viz.  because  it  was  their  interest  to  be  so*. 
The  gentleman  from  Northampton,  (Mr.  Upshur)  said  that  the  Valley  was  not  a  grain- 
growing  country  ;  but  if  he  lived  as  near  it  as  I  do,  and  saw  as  many  of  its  huge 
wagons  and  fat  horses,  he  could  not  have  retained  that  opinion.  Now,  Sir,  the  trade 
of  that  region  of  the  State  must  naturally  folio v/  the  course  of  its  rivers.  Can  any  man 
believe  that  it  will  ascend  the  Alleghany  Mountains,  for  the  sake  of  going  down  the 
Ohio.?  And  if  not,  what  can  be  plainer  "than  that  that  Valley  has,  and  must  have,  the 
same  interest  as  the  lower  part  of  Virginia.?  Vv^hy  will  gentlemen  resolve  to  believe, 
that  this  our  ancient  Commonv/ealth,  must  be  as  "distinctly  divided  by  conflicting  in- 
terests, as  its  several  regions  are  divided  on  the  maps  ? 

No,  Sir  ;  it  is  the  obvious  interest  of  the  Valley  to  be  with  us.  Is  it  so  on  the  Slave 
question .?  The  tables  v/e  have  received  from  the  Auditor  will  shew,  that  there  are 
only  tic3  v/liite  titheables  to  one  black,  through  all  the  Valley.   The  slave  population. 


DEBATE?    or   THE  CONVEXTIOX. 


145 


though  numerous,  is,  in  that  paxt  of  the  State,  much  more  dlffosed,  than  it  is  in  East 
Virginia.  The  interest  is  divided:  among  more  owners  in  proportion  to  tlie  number  of 
slaves.  Gentlemen  to  the  west  of  the  Alleghany,  feel  oppressed,  as  not  beino  repre- 
sented; but  candouj  requires  me  to  sav,  that  the  taxes  in  that  part  of  the  State  are 
not  paid  in  a  manner  proportionate  to  the  population.  Yet  there  are  only  five  whites 
to  one  black,  even  there.  In  the  mean  while,  the  tide  of  the  black  population  moves 
westward :  and  it  increases  more  rapidly  in  the  west,  than  in  any  part  of  the  State. 
2Vow,  Mr.  Chairman,  what  is  the  conclusion  from  all.  these  facts?  Plainly  this:  That 
if  any  body  is  so  wild  as  to  be  disposed  that  Virginia  should  get  rid  suddenly  of  her 
coloured  people,  the  thing  is  impossible.    They  are  fixed,  fast  -rivetted  upon  us. 

Here,  then,  the  whole  subject  rises  before  us  :  and  would  to  God.  I  had  the  power 
to  do  justice  to  it.  But  J  feel  that  it  is  otherwise,  and  I  must  confine  myself  to  a  few 
of  its  most  prominent  points.  t  3^ 

As  it  seems,  that  we  must  extend  tne  rig-ht  of  sum:^e,  how  vain  will  it  be  to  in- 
troduce into  our  Constitution,  a  principle  odious  to  the  people,  from  its  aristocra- 
tic character  t  JS^otwithstanding  all  that  has  been  said  on  this  floor,  against  the  right 
of  men  to  vote,  you  find  few  men  who  wiU  deny  that  they  themselves  have  that  right, 
either  by  nature,  or  in  some  other  way.  I  am  for  extending  the  right  of  sufirage,  not 
merely  because  1  think  it  proper  in  itself,  that  every  free  white  citizen,  should  have 
some  share  in  the  Government,  but  because  it  is  the  only  way  to  counteract  the 
effects  of  the  increase  of  the  black  population  in  Virginia.  I  am  against  offering  a- 
premiam  to  induce  our  labouring  white  people  to  leave  our  soil.  I  would  have  that 
class  of  the  community  retained  and  encouraged  amono-  us.  as  the  best  means  of 
preventing  the  disproportionate  increase  of  the  slaves.  The  labour  of  the  coimtry  is 
the  wealth  of  the  country,  be  it  performed  by-  white  men  or  black.  The  black'  la- 
bourer is  represented  through  the  person  of  Ms  master,  but  the  white  labourer  is  not 
represented  at  all. 

Here  Ivlr.  G.  went  into  a  series  of  illustrations  on  the  relative  importance  of  labour 
and  money :  contending  that  there  was  nothing  valuable  in  the  community  apart 
from  the  soil  itself,  that  was  not  the  effect  of  labour ;  that  th^  resources  of  the  coun- 
try had  not  been  yet  drawn  out :  and  .argued  to  shew  that  it  was  better  entitled  to 
representation  than  wealth  could  be  :  and  from  thence  insisted  on  the  necessity  of  an 
extension  of  the  right  of  suffirage.  He  never  thought  that  a  freehold  was  the  only 
qualification  on  wliich  men  ought  to  be  allowed  to  vote.  Society  hves  on  its  labour, 
not  on  its  capital-:  if  not,  its  capital  would  soon  be  exhausted.  If,  said  he,  you  extend 
the  right  of  suffrage  in  a  fair  and  equitable  manner,  you  will  satisty  the  countr}-. 
There  wUl  be  no  excitement,  and  the  whole  effect  of  the  alteration  y-ou  produce,  will 
be  to  remove  the  seat  of  power,  not  across  the  mountains,  but  only  a  httie  further  up 
the  country,  than  where  it  now  resides.-  We,  who  live  in  tlie  middle  region  of  Vir- 
ginia, have  slaves  as  well  as  you.  You  profess  to  fear,  that  the  Valley  will  go  with. 
Sie  west,  and  that  the  two  vdH  unite  their  power  to  oppress  and  injure  you.  If  that 
fear  be  well  founded,  the  measure  you  propose  offers  no  remedy.  Let  the  Valley 
unite  itself  with  the  west,  and  let  them  be  joined  by  all  the  non-slave-holders  below 
the  motmtains.  and  anv  resistance  of  vour's,  on  any  scheme  of  representation,  must 
prove  utterly  futile.  You  cannot  witlistand  their  will.  Adopt  what  scheme  you 
please,  they  must  have  a  majority  in  the  Legislature.  It  is  the  interest  of  my  portion 
of  the  State  to  equalize  representation  on  any  basis  ;  that  effect  cannot  be  avoided, 
and  if  it  cotild  be.  there  is  nothing  in  that  part  of  the  State  hostile  to  the  interests  of 
any  other  part. 

The  gentleman  from  Or-ange,  when  argtiing  for  a  minority,  referred  the  Committee 
to  the  Senate  of  Massachusetts,  where  property  is  the  sole  basis.  But  there  is  a 
striking  difference  between  the  Senate  of  ^Massachusetts  and  the  Senate  of  Virginia, 
as  to  the  frequencv  of  their  election.  In  Massachusetts  they  are  chosen  annually  ; 
in  Virginia,  only  "once  in  four  years.  And  as  to  taxation,  the  cliiet"  bmden  of  tlie 
contributions  in  ]SIassachusetts  is  imposed  by  the  people  themselves  as  divided  into 
•wards.  The  taxes  laid  in  the  Legislative  Hall  axe  comparatively  few;  and  for 
even  these,  the  legislators  are  perpetually  before  the  peoplB  in  their  annual  elections. 

Gentiemen  talk  about  checks  and  responsibihties.  Is  the  responsibility  of  which 
thev  speak,  the  responsibility  of  a  Governor  or  of  tlie  Senate  to  the  House  of  Dele- 
gates .-  We  all  know  hovr  such  checks  may  be  counteracted  by  combination.  The 
onlv  effectual  responsibthty  in  a  free  State,  is  responsibility  to  tiie  people.  They  are 
never  in  favor  of  their  own  oppression  ;  and  although  individually,  may  think  them 
xmjust  to  tlieir  claims,  they  are  rarely  so  to  the  general  interests,  ^"he  gentle.3nan 
from  Fauquier  (Ivlr.  Scott)  speaking  about  projects  to  tunnel  the  Alleghany,  referred 
-to  the  case  of  the  James  River  canal,  in  which  he  supposed  a  pledge  was  given,  or  at 
least  understood  to  be  given,  that. if  the  Legislature  would  make  the  necessary  grant 
to  carry  on  the  improvement,  our  produce  should  not  be  taxed.  That  a  loan  was  ob- 
tained."" and  when  diSculty  was  felt  in  paying  the  interest,  a  tax  was  imposed  upon 
tobacco.  '  I  was  here  at  the  time,  and  was  in  favor  of  the  project  of  improvement, 

19 


146 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


and  against  the  tax  on  tobacco.  ^  Now,  I  ask,  who  voted  for  that  tax  on  tobacco  ? 
The  ^^'ilole  lower  Virginia  interest.  If  there  were  any  exceptions  at  all,  they  were 
(as  we  heard  lately)  ravi  nantcs.  They  all  voted  by  a  simultaneous  movement,  to  lay  ' 
a  tax  of  a  dollar  a  hogshead  on  tobacco,  notwithstanding  the  prohibition  in  the  act 
of  incorporation  of  the  James  River  Company,  by  which  they  were  bound  not  to  raise 
their  tolls,  till  the  rate  of  transportation  should  be  reduced.  Yet  the  gentleman  says, 
that  the  pledge  then  given,  was  immediately  violated, 

'  [Mr.  Scott  here  rose  to  explain.    He  had  not  charged  a  breach  of  faith  on  any  indi- 
viduals.   He  had. merely  stated  a  fact,  which  he  saw  in  the  Statute  Book.] 

Mr.  Gordon  said,  in  reply,  that  it  was  much  more  agreeable  to  him  to  think^  tliat 
all  tlie  gentlemen  were  equally  just :  and  he  had  no  doubt,  that  those  who  voted 
the  tax,  v»''ere  upright  and  honorable  men,  and  did  what  tliey  supposed  to  be  right. 
The  case  only  proved,  that  a  majority  could  sometimes  do  wrong  :  but,  said  ,  Mr.  G. 
come  the  imposition  from  where  it  may,  one  thing  is  certain,  that  we  continue  to  pay 
it  to  this  day  :  and  when  I  hear  the  niunificerit  power  of  lov\'er  Virginia  lauded  and 
magnified,  by  a  strange  association,  this  tobacco  tax  always  comes  into  my  mind.  It 
was  carried  by  a  majority  of  one  vote  only  :  and 'well  do  I  remember,  with  what  ar- 
dour and  ability  the  gentlenivin  from  Augusta  (Mr.  Johnson)  resisted  it  to  the  last,  in 
the  Senate.  Yet  this  case  is  brought  up  to  have  weight  on  the  present  question. 
Sir,  I  have  no  doubt  that  the  gentlemen  voted  from  the  fairest  motives.  The  motive 
avowed  by  some  was  to  cure  the  country  of  middle  Virginia,  of  its  fondness  for 
internal  improvement,  and,  to  speak  the  truth,  I  believe  it  has,  thus  far,  operated 
very  effectually  to  that  end.  Our  country  compiaiiaed  of  the  tax,  and  endeavored  to 
-get  it  rejjealed  but  in  vain  :  all  who  voted  to  lay  it  on,  voted  to  keep  it  on.  But 
this  case,  so  far  from  furnishing  an  argument,  for  inequality  of  rights,  has  its  v/liole 
bearing  the  other  way.  Do  you  give  us  our  fair  power  in  the  Government,  and  then 
tax  our  tobacco,  if  you  can  ?  Sir,  I  am  not  against  the  tobacco  country.  As  to  the 
increase  of  the  tolls,  it  was  referred  to  a  committee  of  two  gentlemen,  who  reported 
in  its  favor.  'They  were  both  enthusiastic  advocates  for  internal  improvement ;  one 
of  them  was  successfully  prosecuting  a  work  of  gre'at  interest  on  the  Roanoke,  and  '■ 
the  other  had  his  own  residence  on  the  banks  of  James  river,  and  was  willing  him- 
self to  be  taxed. 

And  now,  Sir,  I  ask,  what  have  all  these  subjects  of  internal  improvement  to  do- 
with  the  question  before  us  What  prevents  us  from  going  on  to  lay  the  foundations 
of  a  Republic,  on  those  sacred  principles  of  equal  rights,  for  which  the  patriots  of 
America  have  always  contended  ?  I,  Sir,  insist,  that  the  people  are  capable  of  self- 
government,  and  that  they  ought  to  enjoy  it ;  that  the  power  shall  not  reside  in  A  or 
B,  but  in  the  whole  community  ;  and  that  no  free  white  male  citizen  should  be 
excluded,  but  those  who  have  excluded  ihemselves,  by  the  immorality  of  their  cha- 
racter. 

After  an  apology  for  occupying  so  long  the  time  of  the  Committee,  and  a  reference 
to  the  embarrassment  under  which  he  had  spoken,  Mr.  G.  then  resumed  his  seat. 

Mr.  Morris  here  went  into  an  explanation  of  the  course  he  had  pursued  in  relation 
to  the  incorporation  of  the  Potomac  Company,  to  which  allusion  had  been  made  by 
Mr.  Gordon.  He  had  voted  for  the  act  incorporating  the  company,  not  conceiving  it 
at  all  to  involve  the  question,  as  to  the  right  of  the  United  States'  Government  to  ■ 
bring  their  spades  upon  the  soil  of  Virginia.  Tiie  application  of  this  company  to  Con- 
gress, was  totally  distinct  from  their  apj  lication  to  .Virginia.  They  had  applied  to 
Congress  merely  us  constituting  the  local  Legislature  of  the  District  of  Columbia, 
through  a  part  of  v/hich  District  they  -wished  to  carry  their  canal.  He  could  not  per- 
ceive, what  this  had  to  do  with  the  question  before  the  Committee. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  that  he  did  not  rise  to  enter  into  a  discussion,  which  had  already 
occupied  the  Committee  for  seA^en  days  :  but  simply  to  state  the  reason  why  he  should 
vote  against  Mr.  Scott's  amendment.  That  amendment  proposes  a  basis  which  is  al- 
ready acted  upon  in  the  election  to  the  Senate  ;  and  being  attached  to  the  amendment 
(of  Mr.  Green.)  which- proposes  a  compound  basis  for  the  lower  House,  the  vote  in 
favor  of  one  must  cover  both.    Such  a  vote  he, could  not  consent  to  give. 

Mr.  Johnson  said,  he  had  not  risen  to  discuss  the  merits  of  the  general  question,  but 
only  to  say  a  word  on  the  last  am.endment ;  for  it  was  a  little  remarkable,  that  on  this 
which,  strictly  speaking,  vv^as  theonlj^  question  before  the  House,  not  one  word  had 
yet  been  said,  calculated  to  indicate,  either  how  any  one  would  vote  upon  it,  or  how 
any  one  ought. to  vote  upon  it.  The  latitude  which  had  been  unavoidably  allowed 
in  the  course  of  the  dis&ussion,  had  resulted  in  this,  tliat  the  v\diole  debate  hitherto 
had  been  occupied  on  the  comparative  merit  of  the  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Com 
mittee.  proposing  the  v.'hite  basis  exclusively  in  the  House  of  Delegates  ;  and  the 
amendiuent  of  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  (Mr.  Green)  proposing  as  a  substitute 
the  compound  basis  in- that  House.  The  last  amendment  offered  by  the  gentleman 
from  Fauquier,  (Mr.  Scott)  sought  to  introduce  the  white  basis  in  tlie  Senate,  going 
on  the  ground  that  the  compound  basis  shall  prevail  in  the  lower  House.    Mr.  John- 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


147 


son  said  he  sliould  vote  against  this  amendment  ;  not  because  he  thought  Avhite  po- 
pulation an  improper  basis  for  representation  in  the  Senate,  but  because  he  thought 
that  question  could  be  better  considered,  more  fairly  decided,  as  well  as  more  laUy  un- 
derstood, when  the  Committee  should  have  disposed  of  the  question  of  representation 
in  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  should  come  directly  to  consider  the  subject  of  the 
Senate.  Besides,  said  he,  this  amendment  takes  it  for  granted,  that  we  are  to  have 
representation  on  one  principle  in  the  one  branch  of  the  Legislature,  and  on  another 
principle  in  the  other.  Those  who  are  of  this  opinion,  must  have  a  preference  in  re- 
lation,to  which  of  the  two  shall  be  on  the  white,  and  which  on  the  mixed  basis.  Those 
■w^ho  prefer  giving  the  white  basis  to  the  House  of  Delegates,  will,  of  course,  be  against 
the  amendment  now  last  before  us.  1  prefer  it,  as  furnishing  a  check  to  the  power  of 
the  Senate,  and  shall,  therefore,  vote  against  it  also.    •  , 

Mr.  Scott  said,  that  the  very  reason  given  by  the  gentleman  from  Augusta  (Mr. 
Johnson)  operated  with  him  to  vote  the  other  way  :  But  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun 
(Mr.  Mercer)  had  said  that  the  present  amendment  gave  them  no  more  than  they  had 
already.  He  would  ask  of  that  gentleman  to  point  out  a  single  clause  in  the  Con- 
stitution which  estabhshes  a  white  basis  in  the  Senate  :  he,  at  least,  had  never  seen 
such  a  clause. 

Mr.  Mercer  replied  tliat  he  had  not  asserted  that  the  Constitution  has  such  a  pas- 
sage, but  the  Constitution  certainly  does  not  forbid  it,  and  it  has  been  established  by 
an  act  of  the  Legislature. 

Mr.  Scott  said  he  was  aware  of  that :  but  what  he  proposed  by  his  amendment 
was,  to  give  that  arrangement  a  Constitutional  sanction.  Its  whole  authority,  at  pre- 
sent, is  no  more  than  that  of  any  other  ordinary  bill  passed  by  the  Leoislatvu  e.  Gen- 
tlemen insisted  on  having  a  white  basis  of  representation  :  he  could  iiot  go  with  them 
the  entire  lengtii  they  demanded,  but  was  willing,  as  an  ultimatum,  to  consent  to  that 
basis  in  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Johnson  would  suggest  one  enquiry  to  the  gentleman  who  advocated  the 
amendment  last  proposed.  Where  was  the  precedent,  or  where  could  an}^  just  rea- 
son be  found.,  to  sanction  sucli  a  course  as  it  liroposed  ?  No  man  in  the  Convention, 
he  presumed,  was  disposed  to  disturb  that  part  of  the  Constitution  which  declares, 
that  there  shall  be  two  branches  of  the  Legislature;  one,  numerous,  and  frequently 
elected,  and  coming  directly  from  the  people,  charged  with  their  wishes  and,  stored 
with  a  knowledge  of  all  their  wants,  to  present  their  petitions,  advocate  their  rights, 
and  claim  the  remedy  of  their  wrongs  :  The  other,  select  in  its  character,  few  in  its 
numbers,  a  longer  term  of  service,  and  so  graduated  in  the  rotation  of  those  terms  as 
to  render  the  body  perpetual,  charged  with  the  duty  of  revising  the  proceedings  of  the 
representatives  of  the  people,  of  detecting  their  errors,  and  correcting  them  :  in  whom 
confidence  may  be  placed,  that  they  wilf  have  the  firmness  to  resist  wrong,  and  the 
intelligence  requisite  to  perceive,  and  to  decide  upon,  what  is  right.  These  doctrines 
he  understood  to  be  acknowledged  by  all ;  and  these  rules,  none  that  he  knew  of, 
wished  to  disturb.  But  the  ground  taken  by  those  who  wished  to  see  the  Constitu- 
tion amended  was,  that  in  the  popular  branch  of  the  Legislature,  charged  more  espe- 
cially with  the  wishes  and  wants  of  the  people,  the  people  do  not  now  enjoy  an  equal 
representation  ;  although  in  the  other,  and  the  controlling  branch,  they  are  justly  re- 
presented. You  wish,  said  Mr.  Johnson,  a  censor  (for  .  you  all  contend  for  placing 
some  limit  upon  the  majority,)  and  for  that  end,  you  provide  a.  Senate.  But  the  effect 
of  the  present  amendment,  instead  of  making  the  Senate  a  censor  upon  the  House, 
goes,  in  effect,  to  make  the  House  of  Delegates  a  censor  upon  the  Senate.  Now,  I 
call  upon  all  who  have  any  regard  to  the  just  principles  of  Government,  to  its  harmo- 
ny and  its  consistenc}'-,  to  tell  me  why  such  a  distinction'should  be  established. 

Mr.  Scott  observed  in  reply^  that  he  would  give  the  gentleman  one  or  two  rearons.  ^ 
Both  the  branches  of  the  Legislature  were  popular  in  their  character  :  both  being  cho- 
sen by  the  people,  and  responsible  to  them;  and  the  question  v/as,  which  of  them 
should  be  placed  as  a  guard  upon  tlie  taxing  power  1  We  contend  that  we  are  enti- 
tled to  place  that  guard  in  the  stronger  branch  of  the  Legislature.  We  wish  to  have 
our  rights  protected,  inasmuch  as  we  bring  a  larger  stake  into  the  community  :  we 
bring  our  persons  ixot  only,  but  our  property  w'ith  us  ;  and  we  ought,  therefore  to  have 
the  stronger  security.  Again,  the  interests  of  property  are  more  easily  infringed  than 
those  of  persons.  We  expose  our  person  in  the  streets,  we  place  our  less  valuable 
property  within  the  walls  of  our  houses,  but  we  lock  up  .our  gold  in  a  strong  box. 

Mr.  Nicholas  said,  that  he  washed  to  explain  the  vote  he  should  give.  He  had  lis- 
tened with  attention  to  the  arguments  urged  on  both  sides,  and  his  conviction  was  that 
the  compound  basis  of  representation  was  the  only  true  and  proper  basis  in  both 
Houses.  Why  should  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  (Mr.  Johnson)  impute  any  im- 
proper motive  to  those  who  .were  in  favor  of  the  present  amendment  ?  For  his  own 
part,  he  thought  that  the  arguments  of  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier  (Mr.  Scott)  went 
very  conclusively  to  shew,  not  merely  that  the  compound  principle  should  be  intro- 
duced into  the  larger  branch  of  the  Legislature,  but  that  it  ought  to  prevail  in  both 


148 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


branches.  But/it  was  possible,  that  the  vote  on  his  amendment,  might  serve  to  try- 
how  far  gentlemen  of  opposite  views  could  come  to  some  compromise,  and  yield  a  little 
of  their  respective  convictions.  Can  it,  asked  Mr.  JNicholas,  be  imputed  to  us  as  a 
fault,  that  we  are  willing,  at  least,  to  make  the  experiment Or  are  the  gentlemen 
resolutely  determined  to  go  to  all  extremities  The  amendment  appears  to  me  wise 
in  another  aspect.  What. security  have  we  who  wish  to  take  a  middle  ground,  that 
gentleiiien  after  having  obtained  that  principle  of  representation  which  they  "de- 
sire in  the  lower  House,  will  not  ,  afterwards,  when  we  come  to  fix  the  basis  of  the 
Senate,  insist  upon,  and  carry  it  there  also  I  am  willing  to  take  this  amendment  as 
an  experiment,  to  try  what  are  the  views  and  feelings  of  other  gentlemen  ;  reserving 
to  myself  to  pursue  such  a  course  in  the  issue,  as  I  may  then  deem  expedient.  As  to 
the  propriety,  of  establishing  the'  white  basis  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  rather  than  •  . 
in  the  Senate,  the  argument  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  goes  on  a  2)etitio  principii. 
It  takes  for  granted  the  very  question  in  dispute,  -viz.  that  tlie  white  basis  of  repre- 
sentation is  the  most  proper  in  itself.  ¥/e  think  othervv'ise.  We  prefer  the  mixed 
basis  :  and  so  thinking,  we  desire  to  have  it  first  established  in  the  airost  numerous 
Plouse  of  the  Legislature. 

The  question  was  now  taken  on  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Scott,  and  decided  in  the 
negative.    Ayes  43,  Noes  49.  . 

So  Mr.  Scott's  amendment,  (proposing-the  white  basis  in  the  Senate,  and  the  com- 
pound basis  in  the  House  of.  Delegates.)  was  rejected. 

The  question  then  recurring  on  the  amendment  proposed  by  Mr.  Green,  viz :  to 
strike  out  the  word  "exclusively"  from  the  resolution  reported  by  the  Legislative 
Committee,  and  insert  in  lieu  thereof,  the  Words  "and  taxation  combined,"  and  the 
votiJ  being  apparently  about  to  be  taken, 

Mr.  MoiVROE,  rose  and  spoke  as  follows  : 

It  is  with  reluctance,  Sir,  that  I  now  rise  to  address  you,  the  reasons  for  which,  I 
need  not  repeat,  but  being  under  the  necessity  of  giving  my  vote,  I  owe  it  to  my  con- 
stituents who  have  generously  placed  me  here,  to  the  Commonwealth  I  have  so  long 
served,  and  to  myself,  to  explain  the  grounds  on  which  I  act.  "  I  must  do  it  with  the 
utmost  brevity,  and  I  fear  that  I  shall  fail,  in  giving  the  explanation  which  I  wish. 

I  have  seen  v/ith  the  deepest  concern,  a  concern  I  want  language  to  express,  the 
divisions  which  exist  in  this  body,  and  in  the  Commonwealth ;  because  I  anticipate  if 
they  shall  be  persevered  in,  the  most  unhappy  consequences.  I  consider  it  the  inter- 
est of  every  section  of  the  Commonwealth,  to  unite  in  some  arrangement,  which  may- 
be satisfactory  to  a  great  majority  of  this  House  and  of  the  State  ;  and  even  to  sacri- 
fice a  portion  of  their  respective  claims,  rather  than  to  fail  in  the  accomplishment  of 
the  great  object,  for  which  we  have  met.  If  we  go  home  without  having  agreed  upon 
a  Constitution,  or  if  we  shall  agree  upon  one,  and  it  shall  be  passed  by  a  small  ma- 
jority, what  will  be  the  effect  ?  An  appeal  will  immediately  be  made  to  the  whole  com- 
munity, which  v/ill  excite  repellant  feelings  among  the  people,  in  one  section  against 
those  of  the  other,  which  will  endanger  the  dismemberment  of  the  State.  If  it  should 
be  rejected  by  them,  or  passed  by  a  small  majority,  the  same  result  might  follow. 
Sectional  feelings  already  existing,  will  be  nursed  and  cherished ;  they  will  increase 
and  spread,  till  at  length,  one  part  of  the  community  will  be  pitted  against  the  other, 
and  a  deep  and  malignant  acrim-ony  ensue,  and  where  will  it  end  ?  In  an  actual  dis- 
memberment of  the  Commonwealth  5  which  would  be  the  worst  evil  that  can  befal 
us  ;  a  result  which  would  be  equally  calamitous  to  all.  Should  it  take  place,  the  party 
wliich  had  pressed  its  claims  Avith  most  earnestness,  would  suffer  as  much  as  the 
others.  If  the  State  should  be  severed,  will  the  General  Government  agree,  that 
the  dismembered  part  shall  be  admitted  as  a  separate  State  into  the  Union  ?  I  doubt 
it.  But  if  it  should  agree  to  it,  could  Ave  then  get  fortv^ard,  v/ith  all  our  objects  of  in- 
ternal improvement;  objects  which  I  have  always  advocated,  and  in  the  accomplish- 
ment of  which  I  have  taken  a  deep  interest,  v/ith  the  same  success,  as  in  our  present 
situation  ?  I  have  considered  these  improvements,  as  very  important  to  the  strength 
and  welfare  of  the  Commonwealth,  and  stability  of  the  Union.  I  have  wished  to  see 
them  prosecuted,  but  within  the  limited  resources  of  the  State,  and  with  the  aid  of 
the  United  States.  What  else  is  there  that  can  so  effectually  bind  y.s  together  ?  If  the 
Atlantic  States  should  be  separated  from  those  of  the'  west,  the -country  would  be 
ruined.  The  western  States  would  then  be  arrayed  against  those  on  the  Atlantic,  and 
endless  strife  be  the  consequence.  If  Virginia  should  be  dismembered,  on  the  ground 
of  the  present  controversy,  will  not  the  Carohnas  and  Georgia,  experience  the  same 
fate.?  The  same  principles  are  involved,  and  causes  exist  there,  though  not  to  the 
same  extent.  Those  causes  do  not  exist  in  the  new  States,  where  the  emigration  was 
sudden,  and  the  interests  of  all  the  emigrants,  are  nearly  the  same.  There  are  cau- 
ses of  disunion  among  us,  which  do  not  apply  to  them,  and  if  we  can  bind  the  States 
together,  hy  opening  coitimunicaiions  between  them,  then  our  union  will  be  perfected, 
nothing  can  ever  break  it. 


DEBATES    or   THE  CONVENTION. 


149 


There  are  two  great  waters  in  Virginia,  the  James  river  and  the  Potomac,  which  I 
am  Ter.j  anxious  to  have  connected,  with  the  western  waters  to  vrhichthey  approach. 
The  Roanoke  is  a  third  one.  which  may,  in  sorne  degree,  be  connected  with  tL^  wes- 
tern waters,  and  more  intimately  with  those  of  the  Chesapeake.  These. objects  may 
be  much  better  accomphshed,  if  the  State  remains  united,  than:  if  it  shoidd-be  dis- 
membered. 

"What  are  the  grounds  of  this  division On  what  does  it-rest I  regret  that  I  am 
incompetent  to  o-o  at  large  into  a  consideration  of  them.  It  is  contended  by  these 
who  reside  in  the  western  part  of  the  State,  that  representation  in  the  Legislature, 
shall  be  based  on  white  population  alone  :  It  is  contended  on  the  other  hand,  by  those 
who  live  in  the  east,  that  it  shall  be  based  on  the  principle  of  population  and  taxation 
combined.  These  are  tlie  two  grounds  of  dilierence.  I  am  satisfied,  that  the  xjlaim 
of  those  m  the  west,  is  rational  under  particular  circumstances.  It  hzis  often  been 
suggested  here,  and  I  accord  with  that  view,  that  putting  the  citizens  in  an  equal  con- 
ditiofj,  and  the  basts  which  they  claim  is  just :  It  is  founded  on  the  natural  rights  of 
man,  and  in  pohcy  also,  under  certain  chcumstances.  But  look  at  the  Atlantic  coun- 
try, and  what  is  their  claim  ?  They  are  the  oldest  portion  of  the  State  :  they  have  a 
species  of  property,  in  a  much  greater  amount  than  the  people  of  the  west,  and  this 
they  wish  to  protect.  It  consists  of  slaves.  I  am  satisfied,  if  no  such  thing  as  slave- 
ry existed,  that  the  people  of  our  Atlantic  border,  would  meet  their,  brethren  of  the 
west,  upon  the  basis  of  a  majority  of  the  free  white  population. 

What  has  been  the  leading  spirit  of  this  State,  ever  since  our  independence  was  ob- 
tained ?    She  has  always  declared  herself  in  favour  of  the  equal  rights  of  man.  The 
revolution  was  conducted  on  that  principle.    Yet  there  was  at  that  tune,  a  slavish 
population  in  Virginia.    V>^e  hold  it  in  the  condition  in  which  the  revolution  found  it, 
and  what  can  be  done  with  this  .population  ?    If  they  were  extinct,  or  had  not  been 
here,  white  persons  would  occupy  their  place,  and  perform  all  the  ofiices  now  per- 
formed by  them,  and  consequently,  be  represented.    If  the  white  people  were  not 
taxed,  they  also  would  be  n-ee  from  taxo-tion.    If  you  set  them  free,  look  at  the  con- 
dition of  the  society.    Emancipate  them,  and  what  would  be  their  condition  ?    Four . 
hundred  thousand,  or  a  greater  number  of  poor,  witliout  jDJie  cent  of  property,  what 
would  become  of  them.^  Disorganization  would  follow,  and  perfect  confusion.  They 
are  separated  from  the  rest  of  society,  by  a  different  colour ;  there  can  be  no  inter- 
course or  equahty-  between  them  ;  nor  can  you  remove  them.    How  is  it  practicable  ? 
The  thing  is  impossible,  and  they  must  remain  as  poor,  free  from  the  controul  of  their 
masters,  and  must  soon  fall  upon  the  rest  of  the  society,  and  resort  to  plunder  for  sub- 
sistence.   As  tathe  practicability  of  emancipating  them,  it  can  never  be  done  by  the 
State  itself,  nor  without  the  aid  of  the  Union.    And  what  would  be  their  condition, 
supposing  they  were  emancipated,  and  not  removed  beyond  the  limit^;  of  the  Union  ? 
The  experiment  has  in  part  been  tried-.    They  have  emicrrated  to  Pennsylvania  in 
great  numbers,  and  form  a  part,  of  the  population  of  Philadelphia,  and  likewise  of 
New- York  and  Boston.    But  those  who  vrere  the  most  ardent  advocates  of  emanci- 
pation, in  those  portions  of  the  Union^  have  become  shoq^d  at  the  charges  of  main- 
taining them,  as  weU  as  at  the  effect  of  their,  example,    rsay,  Sir,  look  at  Ohio,  and 
what  has  s!ie  recently  done  ?   Ohio  acknowledges  the  equal  rights  of  all,  yet  she  has 
driven  them  off  fi:om  her  territory.    She  has  been  obhged  to  do  it.    If  emancipation 
be  possible,  I  look  to  the  Union  to  aid  in  effectino;  it. 

Sir,  what  brought  us  togetiier  in  the  revolutionary  war.'  It  was  the  doctrine  of 
equal  rights.  Each  part  of  the  country,  encom'aged  and  supported  every  other  part 
of  it.  None  took  advantacre  of  the  other's  distresses.  And  if  we  find  that  this  evil 
has  preyed  upon  the  vitals  of  the  Union,  and  has  been  prejudicial  to  aU  the  States, 
where  it  has  existed,  and  is  likewise  repugnant  to  their  several  State  Constitutions, 
and  Bills  of  Rights,  why  may  we  not  expect,  that  they  will  unite  with  us,  in  accom- 
plishing its  removal  ?  If  we  make  the  attempt  and  cannot  accompUsh  it,  the  effect 
will  at  least,  be  to  abate  the  g-reat  number  of  petitions  and  memorials,  which  are  con- 
tinually pouring  in  upon  the  Government.  This  matter  is  before  the  nation,  and  the 
principles,  and  consequences,  involved  in  it,  are  of  the  highest  importance.  But  in 
the  meanwhile,  seff-preservation  demands  of  us  union  in  our  councils. 

What  was  the  origin  of  our  slave  population?  The  evil  commenced  when  we  were 
in  our  Colonial  state,  but  acts  were  passed  by  om*  Colonial  Leo-islature,  prohibiting 
the  importation,  of  more  slaves,  into  the  Colony.  These  were  rej^cted-by  the  Crown. 
We  declared  our  independence,  and  tlie  prohibition  of  a  farther  importation,  was 
among  the  first  acts,  of  State  sovereignty.  Vhginia  was  the  first  State,  which  in- 
structed her  Delegates,  to  declare  the  Colonies  independent.  She  braved  all  dangers. 
From  Quebec  to  Boston,  and  fi-om  Boston  to  Savannah,  Virorinia  shed  the  blood  of 
her  sons.  No  imputation,  then,  can  be  cast  upon  her,  in  this  matter.  She  did  all 
that  was  in  her  power  to  do.  to  prevent  the  extension  of  slavery,  and  to  mitigate  its 
e\*ils. 


150 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


As  to- our  western  bretliren,  I  feel  as  deep  an  interest  for  them,  as  for  those  on  the 
Atlantic  border.  I  have  so  long  represented  the  Commonwealth,  that  I  have  no  sec- 
tional feeling.    I  look  to  the  Commonwealth,  and  seek  the  welfare  of  the  whole. 

As  to  the  question  of  boundary,  what  was  the  conduct  of  Virginia  ?  Like  the  other 
Colonies,  she  claimed  the  boundaries,  and  the  extent  of  territory,  granted  to  her  by 
her  Charter.  Virginia  stood  on  the  same  footing  with  the  other  States.  They  all 
held,  under  their  Charters.  But  as  the  revolution  advanced,  it  began  to  be  contended 
by.  those  States,  whose  territory  was  covered  with  population,  that  those  who  held 
vacant  lands,  should  throw  them  into  a  common  stock,  for  the  benefit  of  the  whole, 
and  the  contest  was  puslied  to  such  an  extent  that  menaces  of  hostility  begun  to  be  utter- 
ed. To  quiet  this  discontent,  Virginia  ceded  to  the  United  States,  the  territory  which 
she  held,  to  the  north-west  of  the  Ohio,  out  of  which  three  States  of  the  Union  have 
been  formed.  Kentucky  then,  also  a  distant  part  of  her  territory,  but  separated  by 
mountains  from  the  rest  of  the  State,  claimed  independence.  Virginia  consented  to 
this  also.  And  what  did  she  then  fix  as  the- western  boundarj^  of  the  State.?  The 
Ohio  River  and  the  Cumberland  Mountains  Ail  the  residue  of  her  boundary,  was 
left  as  it  stood  before,  in  confidence,  that  the  extent  was  not  too  great,  and  that  all  the 
inhabitants  within  it,  would  be  held  together  by  a  common  interest.  What  has  been 
her  course,  as  to  the  settlement,  qviite  up  to  the  boundary  line.?  It  has  been  ever  fair, 
open,  manly,  and  generous.  She  has  seldom  refused  the  erection  of  a  county,  when- 
ever it  was  sought.  So  at  least  I  am  assured,  for  I  have  been  absent,  in  the  perform- 
ance of  other  duties,  and  cannot  be  expected,  to  recollect  the  details,  of  this  subject. 
She  has  been  guilty  of  no  oppression,  as  has  been  acknowledged  here,  where,  indeed, 
I  have  witnessed  with  delight,  the  mutual  respect  and  confidence,  with  which  gentle- 
men, on  opposite  sides,  speak  of  each  other ;  and  I  most  earnestly  hope,  that  they  will 
remain,  firmly  bound  together. 

As  to  the  best  arrangement  for  the  settlement  of  this  question,  I  \Vill  frankly  state 
my  own  views.  I  hold  concession  to  be  necessary  on  both  sides.  I  think  the  claim 
of  the  West  strong;  but  that  that  of  those,  who  reside  on  the  Atlantic  side,  is  equal- 
ly so.  It  is  said,  that  by  the  principle,  the  ktter  contend  for,  the  natural  and  political 
rights  of  men,  would  be  violated.  I  do  not  so  view  the  case.  I  think  that  it  admits 
of  a  different  view;  that  is,  to  a  certain  extent,  and  with  the  necessary  modifications, 
I  am  an  advocate  for  the  extension  of  the  right  of  suffrage,  and  on  that  subject  I 
am  ready  to  go,  as  far  as  the  most  liberal  can  desire.  I  will  here  state  an  incident- 
which  occurred  when  I  was  in  the  Legislature  of  Virginia  in  1810.  Petitions  were 
then  presented,  praying  for  a  Convention,  and  one  of  the  objects  desired,  or  urged  in 
the  debate,  was  an -extension  of  the  right  of  suffrage.  I  had  just  seen  the  effects  of 
this  right  in  other  countries  :  I  had  recently  been  in  England  and  France,  and  wit- 
nessed popular  movements  in  both  countries,  particularly  in  France.  I  was  present 
during  three  of  the  great  movements  of  the  -people,  who  seemed  to  act  without  any 
check  or  control.  I  saw  one  of  these  movements  directed  against  their  existing  Gov- 
ernment, and  by  which  it  was  literally  torn  to  pieces.  It  was  at  length  repressed, 
with  the  bayonet,  by  Picheffl^u.  In  another  the  Convention  was  most  violently  assail- 
ed; the  multitude,  burst  into  the  Legislative  Hall;  they  were  met  and  opposed,  by 
the  members ;  they  killed  one,  and  cutting  off  his  head,  marched  with  it  on  a  pike  to 
the  President's  Chair.  I  witnessed  this  scene.  The  third  of  these  popular  move- 
ments, was  also  an  attack  on  the  Convention.  The  Convention  was  about  to  pass  over 
the  Government  to  the  Directory  and  the  two  Councils.  The  excitement  among  the 
people  was  great,  (being  fomented,  as  I  believe,  by  the  agents  of  foreign  powers,  for 
a  political  purpose,)  and  they  had  like  to  have  overthrown  the  Government,  but  after 
much  bloodshed,  they  were  at  length  repulsed.-  1  had  seen  also,  popular  movements 
in  England,  though  not  of  so  niarked  a  tendency.  I  confess  that  this  conduct  of  the 
people  of  France,  under  a  Government  which  was  exclusively  their  own,  made  me 
pause.  I  wished  the  tendency  of  the  measures,  asked  for,  to  be  carefully  weighed. 
I  hesitated,  not  from  any  thing  I  had  ever  seen  in  my  own  country,  but  from  what  I 
had  seen  of  ma,n,  elsewhere.  I  reflected  long,  and  at  length,  became  willing,  to  ex- 
tend the  right  of  suffrage  to  all  those,  who  have  a  common  interest  in  the  country,  and 
may  act,  as  free  and  independent  citizens.  We  are  differently  situated  from  any  other 
nation  on  the  face  of  the  earth.  If  self-government  can  exist  any  where,  it  is  in  these 
States,  and  in  Virginia  as  well  as  in  any  other  part  of  our  Union. 

I  vv^iil  carry  the  right  of  suffrage  as  far  as  any  reasonable  man  can  desire.  Then 
the  rights  of  all  the  citizens  will  stand  upon  the  same  ground :  the  poor  man  and  the 
rich,  will  stand  on  the  same  level.  As  to  the  arrangement  of  -districts,  and  the  pro- 
tection of  property  by  some  reasonable  e^uarantee,  I  do  not  see  how  it  can  affect  the 
question,  of  equal  rights,  among  the  citizens.  It  v/iil  not  affect  it,  within  any  one  dis- 
trict, wliere  there  are  both  poor  and  rich  men.  If  the  plan  was  to  create  an  order  of 
nobility,  or  to  m.ake  the  right  of  suffrage,  depend  on  much  property,  it  might  enable 
the  rich,  to  oppress  the  poor;  but  that  is  not  the  case;  it  leaves  both  on  the  same 
ground,  and  gives  the  one  no  advantage  over  the  other.    I  only  say,  that  representa- 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


151 


tion  should  be  based,  on  the  T^-hite  population,  with  some  reasonable  protection  for 
property.  But  how  is  this  to  be  done  .=  It  may  be  done  in  two  modes.  First  it  may 
be  arranged,  as  it  is  in  South  Carolina,  by  taking  both  into  consideration;  base  your 
representation  on  the  white  population  of  the  State,  and  combine  that,  with  the  pro- 
portion of  taxes  tlu-ou9-hout  the  whole  :  then  each  district  will  have  its  own  share. 
The  other  mode  is  thus^:  Let  one  of  the  brandies  of  the  Legislatm-e  be  placed  upon 
the  basis  of  white  population  alone,  and  the  other  branch,  on  the  compound  basis  of 
population  and  taxation.  If  this  plan  be  adopted,  then  the  question  arises,  in  which 
branch,  shall  the  white  basis  prevail  ?  and  in  which  the  compound Will  you  give 
the  basis  of  white  population  only,  to  the  House  of  Delegates  or  to  the  Senate.'  I 
think  it  will  be  more  safe,  for  both  sections,  for  the  western  and  Atlantic  country,  if 
you  give  it  to  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  for  the  compound  basis,  to  prevail  in  the 
Senate. 

If  you  could  aoree  on  this  arrangement,  the  country  will,  I  think,  be  satisfied,  and 
there  will  be  an'^ample  check  upon  the  course  of  legisl?ticn,  by  the  structure  of  the 
Senate.  The  popular  branch,  may  then  originate  whatever  it  shall  think  most  for  the 
o-ood  of  the  country;  and  if,  through  the  stimulus  of  heated  feeling,  tliey  should  pro- 
pose any  improper'measures,  the  Senate  will  operate  as  an  immediate  clieck.  It  was 
on  this  principle,  that  I  voted  against  the  proposition  to  estabhsh  the  white  basis  for  tlie 
Senate. 

Mr.  Chau-man.  I  thouorht  it  was  my  duty  ,  to  rise  and  state  the  grounds  of  my  vote, 
so  far  as  my  abihty.  and'^the  state  of  my  health,  would  admit.  I  wish  to  see  the  basis 
of  white  population  alone  adopted  for  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  the  compound 
basis  of  representation,  consisting  of  white  population  and  taxation  combined,  for  the 
Senate.    This  is  my  view. 

Mr.  Giles,  in  moving-  for  the  rising  of  the  Committee,  took  occasion  to  express  his 
gratification  at  the  course  and  general  tone  of  the  debate,  and  his  hope  that  some  pro- 
position for  a  compromise,  would  conduct  it  to  a  fortunate  result.  He  intimated  a 
doubt  whether  the  state  of  lois  health  would  permit  him  to  address  the  Committee  to- 
morrow, and  he  did  not  wish  to  be  considered  as  bespeaking  the  floor  :  but  made  a 
conditional  promise,  to  present  his  views  if  able,  and  the  attention  of  the  Committee 
should  not  be  otherwise  occupied. 

The  Committee  thereupon  rose,  and  on  motion  of  Mr.  Johnson,  the  House  changed 
its  hour  of  meeting  for  to-morrow  to  eleven  o'clock,  and  then  adjourned. 


-  .  TUESDAY,  XovEAiBER  3,  1S.29. 

The  Convention  met  at  eleven  o'clock,  and-  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev. 
Mr.  Croes  of  the  Protestant  Episcopal  Church. 

The  House  havinof  o-one  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  jMr.  Stanard  in  the  Chair, 
the  question  being  on  the  amendment  offered  by  Mr.  Green  to  the  first  resolution 
reported  by  the  Legislative  Committee,  which  resolution  is  in  these  words  :  Resohed, 
That  in  the  apportionment  of  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  regard  shall 
be  had  to  the  free  wliite  popula.tion  exdusizely :  and  which  amendment  proposes 
to  strike  out  the  word  ■•'  exclusively."  and  insert  in  heu  thereof,  '•  and  taxation  com- 
bined." 

Mv.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  said  he  rose  to  address  the  Committee,  on  this  vitally 
interestincf  question,  mider  circumstances  peculiarly  disagreeable  to  him — having  to 
follow  the^ venerable  member  from  Loudoun  (Mr.  ^Monroe)  who  favored  "the  Commit- 
tee with  his  views,  yesterday — and  who,  from  his  advanced  age  and  long  experience, 
from  the  high  place  he  had  filled  in  the  service  and  in  the  confidence  of  liis  country, 
and  from  the  large  space  he  occupied  in  the  eyes  of  mankind,  possessed  great  weight 
of  character,  to  deepen  the  impression  on  the  minds  of  others,  of  any  opinions  he 
aaiight  utter — weight  of  character,  of  which  he  liimself  (as  he  ]>ad  often  felt  before 
and  never  more  painfully  than  now)  had  none,  hterall}-  none.-  Nevertheless,  this  was 
an  occasion,  on  which  he  could  take  counsel  only  from  his  sense  of  duty.  And,  he 
believed,  if  George  Washington  were  to  rise  from  the  dead,  and  to  propose  such  a 
compromise  as  that  ottered  by  the  venerable  gentleman,  so  partial  as  in  his  conception 
it  was,  so  ruinous,  so  destructive,  so  damnatory,  to  the  dearest  interests  of  the  people 
who  had  sent  him  here,  he  should  find  the  moral  courage  in  his  heart  to  reject  and  to 
oppose  it,  even  coming  from  him.  The  stcterunt  covke.  he  might  experience — but  not' 
(he  thought)  the  tox  faucihus  hcEsit — on  tlie  contrary,  he  should  be  apf  to  utter  a 
shriek  of  alarm  and  terror,  tliat  would  strike  the  dullest  ear  and  the  dullest  under- 
standing, though  not  perhaps  the  hearts  of  such  reformers,  as  were  willing  to  make 
the. experiment  on  the  body  politic,  how  large  a  dose  of  French  rights  of  man  it  can 
bear,  vrithout  fever,  frenzy,  madness  and  death. 


152 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


xxe  said,  ail  the  little  knowledge  he  possessed,  and  all  his  habits  of  thinking,  were 
merely  professional ;  habits  of  thinking,  confined  to  narrow  questions  of  municipal 
law  and  justice,  and  little  suited  to  the  examination  and  discussion  of  great  questions 
of  State,  which  require  the  greatest  reach  and  the  widest  range  of  thought.  He  felt 
himself  under  a  sort  of  necessity  to  begin  with  a  clear-  and  tair  state  of  the  case  and 
of  the  question. 

He  had  then,  in  the  first  place,  to  inform  the  Committee,  that  there  is  assessed,  of 
land  tax,  upon  the  twenty-nine  counties  lying  below  the  Blue  Pddge  and  above  tide 
water,  containing  about  196,500  tax-paying  inhabitants  (average  vex  head)  34  cents  ; 
■upon  the  thirty-six  counties  and  four  towns,  lying  on  tide  water,  containing  about 
184,500  tax-paying  people,  31  cents ;  upon  the  fourteen  counties  between  the  Blue" 
Ridge  and  the  Alleghany,  containing  124,000  tax-payers,  27  cents;  and  upon  the  twen- 
ty-six trans-Alleghany  counties,  containing  134,500  tax-payers,  12  cents.  Of  the  tax 
on  slaves,  there  is  assessed  on  the  people  of  the  twenty-nuie  middle  counties  below 
the-Blue  Ridge  and  above  tide-water,  (average  per  head)  2rf  cents  3  on  the  people  of 
the  thirty-six  counties  and  four  towns  on  tide  water,  24  cents  ;  on  the  people  of  the 
fourteen  Valley  counties,  7  cents;  and  on  the  people  of  the  twenty-six  trans-Allegha- 
ny counties.,  3  cents.  The  tax  on  horses  and  carriages,  assessed  on  the  tax-paying 
people  of  the  twenty-nine  middle  counties  (average  per  head)  is  9  cents ;  on  those  of 
the  tide  water  country,  8  cents  ;  on  those  of  the  Valley  country,  8  cents;  ?„nd  on 
those  of  the  trans-Alleghany  country,  7  cents.  The  total  of  these  direct  taxes,  assessed 
on  the  people  of  the  twenty-nine  middle  counties,  is  72  cents;  on  those  of  the  tide 
water  country,  64  cents ;  on  those  of  the  Valley  country,  42.^  cents  ;  and  on  those  of 
the  trans-Alleghany  country,  22^  cents.  The  country  east  -of  the  Blue  Ridge  con- 
tains about  381,500  tax-paying  inhabitants,  and  the  taxes  assessed  on  them,  averaged 
per  head,  stands,  thus — land  tax,  32  cents  7  mills  ;  slave  tax,  26  cents  8  mills  ;  horse 
and  carriage  tax,  8  cents  7  mills ;  tota;l  of  direct  taxes,  68  cents  2  mills— and  the  coun- 
try west  of  the  Blue  Ridge  contains  about  258,500  tax^paying  inhabitants,  and  the 
average  per  head  of  taxes  assessed  on  them,  is  19  cents  6  mills  of  land  tax  ^  5  cents 
of  slave  tax ;  7  cents  6  mills  of  the  tax  on  horses  and  carriages ;  total  32  cents  2 
mills.         "  ' 

The  tax  assessed  on  the  people  of  the  Congressional  district  composed  of  the  coun- 
ties of  Sussex,  Southampton,  Surry,  Isle  of  Wight,  Prince  George,  and  Greensville, 
(one  of  the  least  fertile  tracts  of  country  in  the  southern  part  of  the  State)  is  62  cents, 
average  per  head;  the  tax  assessed  on  the  people  of  the  district  of  Brunswick,  Lu- 
nenburg, Mecklenburg  and  Dinwiddle,  (an  adjoining  district  of  medium  fertility)  is 
75  cents;  that  assessed  on  the  people  of  the  district  of -Hahfax,  Pittsylvania  and 
Campbell,  is  71  cents  ;  and  that  assessed  on  the  people  of  the  district  of  Pow4iatan, 
Amelia,  Nottoway,  Chesterfield  and  Petersburg,  is  97  cents  ;  while  the  tax  assessed 
on  the  people  of  the  northern  district  of  Loudoun,  Fairfax  and  Prince  William, 
amounts  to  an  average  of  no  more  than  57  cents ;  and  that  assessed  on  the  people  of 
the  rich  and  fertile  Valley  district  of  Frederick  and  Shenandoah,  (the  finest  part  of 
the  State)  averages  only  43  cents' per  head. 

The  average  per  head  of  direct  taxes  assessed  on  the  people  of  Frederick,  is  56 
cents  ;  Loudoun,  56  cents;  Jefferson,. (the  finest  county  in  the  State)  55  cents;  Au- 
gusta, 54  cents ;  Berkeley,  38  cents  ;  Shenandoah,  31  cents  ;  Kanawha,  29  cents ; 
Ohio,  21  cents  ;  Brooke,  19  cents  ;  Harrison,  17  cents  ;  and  Monongalia,  15  cents — 
while  the  average  amount  assessed  mi  the  people  of  Fluvanna,  is  71  cents ;  Nelson, 
79  cents ;  Amherst,  81  cents;  Buckingham,  82  cents  ;  Campbell,  84  cents ;  Orange, 
88  cents;  Albemarle,  90  cents;  Goochland,  92  cents;  Cumberland,  92  cents';  Amelia, 
106  cents;  Nottoway,  119  cents-;  Powhatan,  122  cents  ;  and  that  little  despised  coun- 
ty of  Warwick.  75  cents  ;  that  is,  20  cents  more  than  Jefferson. 

In  these  estimates,  it  should  be  observed,  free  negroes  were  included  as  tax-paying 
citizens,  because  they  were  so  in  the  eye  of  the  law.  though  it  is  well  known  they  in 
fact  contribute  little  or  notjhing  to  the  Treasury :  the  tax  on  merchants'  and  other- li- 
censes was  excluded,  though  in  truth  they  w^ere  borne  by  the  consumers  in  the  im- 
mediate neighborhood :  the  tax  on  tobacco  inspected,  imposed  under  the  pretext  of 
providing  a  fund  for  insurance  of  tobacco  burned  in  the  public  warehouses,  and  borne 
wholly  by  the  tobacco  planters,  was  ?Jso  excluded:  and  the  gross  taxes  assessed  were 
estimated  instead  of  the  am^ount  paid  into  the  Treasury.  The  estimate,  too,  was 
founded  on  the  taxes  of  the  year  1828,  while  the  numbers  of  tax-paying  citizens  were 
ascertained  by  the  Censu.s  of  1820,  since  which  there  has  been  a  greater  propcrtional 
increase  of  white  population  in  the  w^estern  than  in  the  eastern  part  of  the  State. 

Mr.  L.  said  he  had  been  furnished  by  his  friend  the  honorable  gentleman  from  Cul- 
peper  (Mr.' Green)  with  an  estimate,  in  v/hich  the  f^ee  negroes  were  (as  they  ought 
to  be)  excluded  from  the  number  of  tax-paying  citizens,  and  the  taxes  on  licenses  and 
on  tobacco  inspected  were  excluded  from  the  amount  of  taxoAion,  and  which  was 
founded  on  the  amount  of  direct-taxes  actually  paid  into  the  Treasury  in  1828,  and 
the  estimate  furnished  by  the  Auditor  of  the  white  population  in  1829.    And  it  thence 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


153 


appeared,  that  the  twenty-nine  middle  counties  contained  a  white  population  of  about 
197,000,  and  pay  (average  per  head)  of  land  ta:s:  about  34  cents,  of  slave  tax  2S  cents, 
and  of  the  horse  and  carriage  tax  9  cents :  the  thirty-six  counties  and  four  towns  on 
tide- water  contain  a  white  population  of  about  165,500.  who  pay  an  average  of  about 
34  cents  of  land  tax,  27  cents  of  slave  tax,  and  9  cents  of  horse  and  carriage  tax:  the 
fourteen  valley  counties  contain  a  white  population  of  about  138,000.  who  pay  an 
average  of  about  24  cents  of  land  tax,  6  cents  of  slave  tax.  and  7  cents  of  horse  and 
ca:rriage  tax :  and  the  twenty  trans- Alleghany  counties  contain  a  white  population  of 
about  181,300,  who  pay  an  average  of  about  0  cents  of  land  tax,  2  cents  of  slave  tax, 
and  5  cents  of  the  tax  on  horses  and  carriages.  The  white  population  east  of  the  Blue 
Ridge  is  about  362,500,  and  west  of  the  Blue  Ridge  319,300.  The  first  pay  of  tl^te  land 
tax  an  average  of  34  cents,  the  latter  only  15  cents:  the  first  pay  of  slave  tax  26  cents, 
the  latter  only  4  cents  :  the  first  pay  of  the  horse  and  carriage  tax  9  cents,  the  latter 
only  6  cents. 

Pursuing  the  comparison,  Mr.  L.  stated,  that  for  every  dollar  levied  on  the  people 
west  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  there  was  levied  on  the  people  east  of  the  Blue  Ridge  ,$3  16 
per  head;  and  for  every  dollar  paid  by  the  Western  people,  the  Eastern  pay  S3  24 
per  head.  And  these  proportions  of  tire  burthens  borne  by  the  two  great  divisions  of 
the  State,  have  continued^for  a  long  series  of  years. 

It  had  been  supposed.  Mr.  L.  understood,  that  a  tax  on  neat  cattle  would  prove  com- 
paratively light  to  the  Eastern,  and  oppressively  burdensome  to  the  Western,  people. 
He  believed,  it  had  been  his  fortune  to  be  the  first  person  to  propose  or  rather  to  sug- 
gest that  tax.  when,  in  the  session  of  1812—13,  he  had  the  honor  and  the  responsibili- 
ty of  being  Chairjuan  of  the  Committee  of  Finance.  War  was  raging  on  our  mari- 
time frontier  :  the  Federal  Government  to'd  us,  in  plain  terms,  that  the  local  authori- 
ties must  look  to  the  local  defence,  and  depend  on  their  own  means  :  it  was  absolute- 
ly necessary  to  raise  more  revenue,  a  war  revenue,  by  some  means  or  other.  Lands, 
slaves,  horses  and  carriages,  had  been?  time  out  of  mind,  the  principal,  he  might  al- 
most say,  the  only  productive,  subjects  of  taxation ;  and  thus  the  people  of  the  east- 
ern part  of  the  State  had  ill  ways  borne  a  srreat  proportion  of  the  burden.  It  -(vas  pro- 
posed to  increase  those  standi  nor  taxes,  and.  casting  about  for  means  to  reconcile  the 
Eastern  people  to  these  additional  burdens,  by  drawing  a  small  increase  of  revenue 
from  the  West,  the  tax  on  neat  cattle  occurred  as  the  best  suited  to  the  purpose.  It 
was,  therefore,  suggested — but  it  was  not  then  imposed.  It  was  received  with  such 
a  moaning  low,  as  if  tlie  animal  on  which  it  was  proposed  to  lay  the  tax,  had  smelt 
the  blood^of  a  slauorhtered  fellow-creature,  and  raised  its  plaintive  voice  for  sympathy 
from  man  and  brute.  The  war  continuing,  and  the  State  Treasury  as  well  as  the 
Federal,  uttering  many  a  hollow  groan,  the  tax  on  cattle  was  at  length  imposed  in 
18l5,  but  never  lifterwards  renewed,  and  ever  since,  the  re-bellowing  of  that  cow  tax, 
and  the  spectres  of  our  fellow-citizens  whose  deaths  are  imputed  to  the  pestilential 
climate  of  Norfolk  in  the  month  of  November  (by  tlie  way,  they  were  sent  there  by 
the  Government  of  the  United  States,  not  of  Virginia,  and  were  not  drafted  from  the 
tramontane  militia  alone,  but  from  every  part  of  the  State)  have  been  raised,  again 
and  again,  on  all  occasir.ns,  to  prove  the  enormity  of  the  burdens  home,  and  the  tran- 
scendant  services  rendered,  for  the  defence  of  their  Eastern  brethren,  b}'  the  people 
of  the  West.  But  what  was  tha  produce  of  that  cow  tax,  and  by  whom  was  it  paid.? 
Excludinof  the  -counties  of  Jefi'erson,  Accomac,  Elizabeth  City,  Richmond,  Norfolk, 
and  Norfolk  borough,  (of  which  there  are  no  returns.)  the  burden  of  that  tax  was  borne, 
in  almost  exact  equality,  by  tlie  East  and  the  West — the  average  being  3  cents  8  mills 
per  head.    Such  is  the  fact,  let  it  be  accounted  for  how  it  may.  - 

In  1815,  in  the  extreme  exigencies  of  the  State,  taxes  were  imposed  on  furniture, 
mills,  tanneries,  professions,  trades,  stamps,  pictures,  plate  (for  so  they  called  silver 
spoons,  the  only  article  of  the  kind  the  people  had) — in  short,  on  almost  every  species 
of  property,  as  well  as  additional  taxes  on  lands,  slaves,  horses  and  carriages.  Of 
these  taxes,  the  country  east  of  tlie  Blue  Ridge  paid  $495,589 — and  the  AYestern 
country  $  141,360.  For  every  dollar  paid  by  the  West,  the  East  paid  ^3  50,  average 
per  head. 

I  will  not  affirm,  said  iNIr.  L.  that  these  statements  are  absolutely  free  from  all  in- 
accuracy— but  the  inaccuracies,  if  any.  are  very  trivial — the  estimates  have  been  ex- 
amined by  men  more  competent  to  the  work  than  I  pretend  to  be  :  I  challenge  inves- 
tigation. And  from  these  statements,  some  propositions,  very  material  to  be  consider- 
ed, flow  by  direct  induction. 

In  the  first  place,  there  is  one  peculiar  and  most  convenient  subject  of  taxation,  pe- 
culiar too  and  most  delicate  subject  of  legislation,  of  which  the  people  of  the  West 
possess  comparatively  a  mere  modicum,  and  the  farming  country  of  the  North  a  very 
moderate  share,  while  the  people  of  the  East  and  of  the  more  Southern  planting  coun- 
ties hold  a  vast  mass — I  mean,  slaves. 

It  is  evident,  in  the  next  place,  that  it  is  hardly  possible  to  find  any  subject  of  tax- 
ation, or  to  devise  any  tax,  direct  or  indirect,  of  wliich  the  people  of  the  East  will  not 

20 


154 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


pay  at  least  as  much  as  thiDse  of  the  West;  and  as  to  the  ordinary  taxes,  we  pay  a  third 
more  than  the  West,  of  the  taxes  on  horses  and  carriages,  more  than  twice  as  much 
land  tax,  and  seven  times  as  much  of  the  slave  tax. 

And  tliis  may  serve  to  account  for  another  fact  manifested  by  these  statements,  far 
more  satisfactorily  than  that  generous  disregard  of  their  own  interests,  which  the  gen- 
tleman from  Frederick  so  courteously  attributed  to  the  people  of  the  East — the  ac- 
knowledfred  fact,  that  the  existing  Legislature  has  never  abused  its  power  as  to  taxa- 
tion— of  its  acts  of  misrule  in  other  respects,  it  seems,  we  are,  in  due  time,  to  hear 
the  charges  and  the  proof  The  East  could  not  impose  burdens  on  the  West,  without 
imposing  far  heavier  burdens  on  itst-lf.  The  West  has  had,  all  along,  that  very  bond 
with  surety  from  us,  wliich  ray  friend  from  Fauquier  so  justly  demanded  of  the  West 
for  us — the  pledge  of  our  own  interest  and  self-love — an  interest  in  the  depositories  of 
power  not  to  abuse  it — no  paper  guarantee — but  a  hold  upon  the  hearts  of  men,  which 
beat  true  to  self-interest,  if  to  nothing  else. 

This  also  accounts  for  another  fact,  very  observable  in  our  histoiy — that  whenever 
any  grand  and  munificent  scheme  of  Internal  Improvement  has  been  offered  to  us, 
striking  to  the  imagination  and  almost  seducing  the  mind  from  the  exercise  of  reason, 
it  has  found  favour  in  the  North  and  the  West,  while  the  South  and  the  East  have 
evinced  a  spirit,  often  described  as  niggardly — that  the  South  and  the  East  have 
shewed  themselves  loath  to  vote  money  fbr  any  such  purposes,  or  for  any  purpose  but 
to  supply  the  pressing  wants  of  tlie  State.  Taking  the  exactions  of  the  Federal  and 
of  the  State  Governments  together,  I  doubt  whether  there  is  a  people  on  earth, 
more  heavily  taxed  than  the  slave-holding  planters  of  Virginia.  We  feel  the  weight 
of  those  State  taxes,  which  our  brethren  of  the  West  and  North,  paying  no  equal 
share,  find  so  light  and  easy. 

In  the  last  place,  seeing  that  the  burdens  of  taxation  are  thus  unequal  now — if 
there  be  any  man  so  strong  of  faith,  as  to  entertain  no  fears  that  the  inequality  may 
be  aggravated  by  transferring  the  balance  of  the  power  to  the  west — power  over  tax- 
ation and  property — none  can  be  so  green,  or  so  mellow,  as  to  hope,  that  the  inequa- 
lity is  likely  to  be  thereby  corrected.  One  of  the  main  causes  of  discontent,  which 
led  to  this  Convention,  that  which  had  the  strongest  influence  in  overcoming  our  ve- 
neration for  the  work  of  our  fathers,  which  taught  us  to  contenm  the  sentiments  of 
Henry  and  Mason  and  Pendleton,  which  weaned  us  from  our  reverence  for  the  con- 
stituted authorities  of  the  State,  was  an  overweening  passion  for  Internal  Improve- 
ment. I  say  this  Vv^ith  perfect  knowledge  ;.  for  it  has  been  avowed  to  me  by  gentle- 
men from  the  west,  over  and  over  again.  And  let  me  tell  the  gentleman  from  Albe- 
marle (Mr.  Gordon)  that  it  has  been  another  principal  object  of  those  who  set  this 
ball  of  revolution  in  motion,  to  overturn  the  doctrine  of  State  Rights,  of  which  Vir- 
ginia has  been  the  very  pillar,  and  to  remove  the  barrier  she  has  opposed  to  the  inter- 
ference of  the  Federal  Government  in  that  same  work  of  Internal  Improvement,  by 
so  re-organizing  the  Legislature,  that  Virginia  too  may  be  hitched  to  the  Federal  car. 
This  also,  in  substance,  has  been  often  avowed  to  me,  and  that  by  gentlemen  for 
whom  personally  I  have  the  higliest  respect.  The  Federal  Government  points  a  road 
along  the  Valley,  or  along  the  foot  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  or  across  the  countr}^  at  the 
liead  of  tide-water  ;  and  State  Rights  fall  or  trembk  at  the  very  sight  of  this  tremen- 
dous ordnance.  It  must  be  manifest  to  all  men's  minds,  that  without  a  vast  increase  ' 
of  its  revenue  by  the  State,  or  the  aid  of  the  Federal  Government,  all  those  splendid 
schemes  of  Internal  Improvement,  so  passionately  supported  by  the  North  and  West, 
must  prove  futile  and  abortive.  If,  there  fore  j  the  balance  of  power  be  transferred  to 
the  west,  the  taxes  will  in  all  likelihood  be  greatly  augmented,  and  most  certainly 
they  will  not  be  reduced. 

And,  then,  Mr.  Chairman,  the  question  is,  whether,  when  money  is  to  be  raised  for 
any  purpose — to  defray  the  expenses  of  the  civil  list,  or  for  the  public  defence,  or  for 
public  education,  or  for  Internal  Improvement — the  people  of  the  west  may  justly 
claim  power,  forever  hereafter,  by  one  and  the  same  vote,  to  give  and  grant  three 
dollars  of  our  money,  for  every  dollar  they  give  and  grant  of  their  own.''  And,  then, 
to  appropriate  the  revenue,  according  to  their  notions  of  justice  and  policy  ?  Whether, 
while  the  people  of  Loudoun  give  and  grant  56  cents  of  their  money,  those  of  Frede- 
rick 56,  Jefferson  55,  Augusta  54,  Berkeley  38,  and  Shenandoah  31  cents — they  may 
reasonably  claim  power,  to  give  and  grant,  by  the  same  vote,  from  the  people  of  Flu- 
vanna 71,  of  Nelson  79,  of  Amherst  81 ,  of  Buckingham  82,  of  Campbell  84,  of  Orange 
83,  of  Albemarle  00,  and  of  Goochland  92  cents  ?  Whether,  while  the  rich  people  of 
Berkeley  give  and  grant  38  cents,  and  those  of  Shenandoah  only  31  cents,  of  their 
money,  they  shall  have  power,  by  the  same  vote,  to  give  and  grant  75  cents  from  the 
poor  people  of  Warwick.'  Whether,  while  the  people  of  the  thriving  county  of 
Kanawha,  give  and  grant  29  cents,  Ohio  21,  Brooke  19,  Harrison  17,  and  Mononga- 
lia 15  cents;  they  shall  have  power  by  the  same  vote,  to  give  and  grant  92  cents  from 
the  people  of  Cumberland,  106  cents  from  those  of  Amelia,  119  cents  from  those  of 
Nottoway,  and  122  cents  from  those  of  Powhatan     And  that,  for  purposes,  in  which 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVEXTIOX. 


155 


those  who  pay  the  most,  can  have  Httle  or  no  interest, — and  those  who  pay  the  least, 
must  have  a  great  and  direct  interest  ?  If  the  taxes  be  uniform,  (as  they  must  be.) 
the  consequences  are  inevitable. 

Sir,  if  the  claim  be  yielded  to,  I  know  no  happier  illustration  of  the  effects,  than 
that  furnished  by  the  metaphor  of  tlie  gentleman  from  ^^sorfolk,  the  other  day.  He 
told  us,  that  representation  and  taxation  are  not  twin  streams,  rismg  in  the  same  glen, 
separated  by  accident,  uniting  in  the  vale  below,  and  rolhng  the  joint  tribute  of  their 
waters  to  the  same  ocean  :  thev  rose  from  ditrerent  foimtains.  they  flowed  in  differ- 
ent directions,  and  emptied  into  different  oceans.  Yes,  indeed — if  we  adopt  the  prin- 
ciple reported  by  the  Legislative  Committee — represeniation  will  rise  in  the  3Ioim- 
tains,  and  overflow  and  drown  the  Lowlands  ;  while  taxation,  rising  in  the  Lowlands, 
and  reversing  the  course  of  natmre,  will  flow  to  the  Moimtains,  and  there  spend, 
if  not  waste  its  fertilizing  steams,  over  every  narrow  valley  and  deep  glen,  and  moun- 
tain side. 

Gentlemen  from  the  west,  hav«  exhorted  us  to  discard  all  care  for  local  interests — 
tliey  tell  us,  that,  if  they  know  their  own  hearts,  their  opinions  and  course  are  not 
influenced  by  any  such  paltry  considerations.  Without  doubting  the  sincerity  of  these 
professions,  I  doubt  whether  tiiey  do  know  their  own  hearts — without  unpiously  set- 
ting up  myself  for  a  searcher  of  hearts,  I  doubt  whether  tlicy  have  searched  their 
hearts  \vith  sufficient  scrutiny — nay.  whether  any  scrutiny  would  have  been  success- 
ful. It  is  a  divine  truth,  that  the  heart  of  man  is  treacherous  to  itself,  and  deceittul 
above  all  things.  This  we  know  with  certainty,  that  tlie  opinions  of  the  western 
delegation,  on  tliis  question,  conform  exactly  with  the  interests  of  their  constituents — 
they  are  perfectly  unanimous — no  division  among  them — none  at  all.  And  there  is 
the  great  county  of  Loudoun — Vv^hy  (as  Louis  XIV.  said  to  his  grand-son,  when  he 
departed  to  mount  the  Throne  of  Spain) — why  are  there  no  lono-er  any  Pyrenees .' — 
Why  is  the  Blue  Ridge  levelled  from  the  Potomac  to  Ashby's  Gap.  tliough  it  swells 
again  to  Alpine  heights,  as  it  proceeds  thence  southward,  to  divide  Fauquier  from 
Frederick This  miracle  has  not  been  worked  by  turnpiking  the  roads.  Look  at  the 
census,  and  observe  that  the  white  population  of  Loudoun,  is  three-fold  that  of  the 
black  ;  look  at  the  Auditor's  reports,  and  mark  the  fact,  that  Loudoun  pays  not  half  as 
much  tax,  as  some  of  the  poorer  slave-holding  planting  coimties  ;  consider  her  com- 
mon interest  with  all  the  upper  Northern  2Seck  in  internal  improvement,  and  their 
common  opinions  concerning  State  Rights  :  and  then,  if  I  mistake  not,  the  question 
will  be  very  easy  of  solution.  The  votes  from  tlie  Orancre,  the  Albemarle,  the  Camp- 
bell, the  Pittsylvania,  and  the  Norfolk  districts,  which  (I  know  not  why,)  are  all  count- 
ed on  as  securely,  as  if  they  were  already  given :  these  are,  indeed,  disinterested, 
and  can  only  be  attributed  to  maofnanimity.  I  presume  not  to  enquire  into  the  mo- 
tives of  gentlemen,  much  less  to  censure  their  conduct.  I  admire,  but  I  cannot  imi- 
tate their  example.  I  have  regard,  especial  regard,  to  the  local  interests  of  my  con- 
stituents. They  sent  me  here  for  the  very  purpose,  that  I  might  watch  over  them, 
guard,  defend;  and  secure  them,  to  the  uttermost  of  my  power.  And,  if  I  should 
disregard  them,  either  thi-ouo-h  desiam  or  indolence — if  I  were  even  to  profess  to  have 
no  regard  to  them — it  were  Tjetter  for  me,  that  I  had  never  been  born — the  contempt 
of  some,  and  the  hate  of  others,  would  pursue  me  through  life  ;  and  if  I  shoiild  fly 
for  refuore  to  the  remotest  corners  of  the  earth,  conscience — Q^ids  cxul  p atria  se  quoque 
fucrit — conscience  would  still  follow  me  with  her  whip  of'scorpions,  and  lash  me  to 
the  grave. 

Sir,  I  affirm  with  the  gentleman  from  Hanover,  (j>Ir.  !Morris.)  that  the  contest  we 
are  now  engao-ed  in.  though  not  the  same  in  its  circmnstances,  with  that  between  our 
ancestors  and  Great  Britam.  is  similar  in  principle.  I  have  heard,  and  wondered  to 
hear,  many  persons  talk  "  of  oiir  having  cast  off  the  yoke  of  British  slavery."  The 
French  minister.  Genet,  once  dared  to  address  General  Washington  in  that  same 
straia;  and  he  began  his  answer  with  those  memorable  words, — "  Born  in  a  land  of 
freedom.''  Our  fathers  had  no  yoke  of  slavery-to  cast  off — their  merit  and  their  glory 
consisted  in  resisting  the  very  "first  attempt  made  to  impose  one.  None  but  freemen 
would  have  perceived  the  danofer ;.  none  but  freemen  would  have  spurned  the  yoke 
the  moment  they  saw  it  prepared  for  them,  and  before  they  felt  its  weight.  The  hmn- 
blest  slave,  the  basest  felon,  the  very  beasts,  will,  when  they  can.  cast  off  a  yoke  that 
galls  them.  At  the  peace  of  1763,  the  Colonies  were  warmly  attached  to  England  ; 
nor  had  George  III.  a  more  loyal  subject  in  his  dominions,  that  George  Washington. 
The  quarrel  originated  in  the  attempt  of  the  British  Parliament  to  tax  us ;  and  all  the 
grievances  we  afterwards  complained  of,  were  but  the  effects  of  our  determination 
not  to  submit  to  the  taxes  it  sought  to  impose,  and  of  the  efforts  of  Great  Britain  to 
subdue  our  resistance.  In  the  language  of  Lord  Chatham,  the  Connnons  of  Great 
Britain  claimed  a  right  to  give  and  ffrant  the  money  of  the  Commons  of  America, 
without  allowing  them  any  representation  at  all.  Our  western  fellow-citizens  only 
claim  power  to  orive  and  errant  three  dollars  of  our  money  for  every  dollar  they  give 
and  grant  of  their  ovni,  allowing  us  representation  indeed,  but  a  representation  not 


156 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


strong  enough  to  refuse  the  grant.  Suppose  Great  Britain  had  offered  us  a  represen- 
tation in  F<irlia.ment,  proportioned  to  our  free  jchite  population  exclusively — what  would 
om-  fathers  have  said  to  it?  Wliat  I,  tlieir  descendant,  now  say  to  it — "  It  is  mocke- 
ry— you  ask  us  to  put  ourselves  in  your  power,  bound  hand  and  foot,  and  think  be- 
cause yo\i  gild  our  chains  with  a  thin  leaf  that  shews  like  golden  freedom,  we  shall 
be  so  silly  as  to  wear  them."  Great  Britain  might  have  ottered  us  a  representation 
in  Parliament,  proportioned  to  our  popidation,  and  told  us  truly,  that  our  country 
would  soon  be  populous,  that  our  vast  forests  would  soon  be  felled,  that  our  vast  wil- 
dernesses would  soon  blossom  like  the  rose,  and  that  in  the  course  of  some  forty  years, 
we  shovild  have  a  population  of  ten  or  twelve  millions,  and  then  be  entitled  to  an 
equal  representation.  Such  language  would  hardly  have  prevailed  with  us.  But  our 
fellow-citizens  of  the  west,  reverse  tiie  proposition — they  tell  us,  that  in  thirty  years 
the  majority  will  surely  be  found  west  of  the  Alleghany,  and  gravely  ask  us  to  assent 
to  a  principle,  which  will  place  us,  and  all  we  have,  in  their  power  and  at  their 
mercy — our  slaves,  our  lands,  our  household  goods,  our — but  I  stop.  Sir.  The  beauty 
of  it  is,  they  tell  us  all  the  while,  to  quiet  our  apprehensions,  no  doubt — "  Remember 
the  weight  of  a  Back- Woods  vote"— comply  with  all  our  desires,  reasonable  or  un- 
reasonable, or  never  hope  more — "  Remember  the  weight  of  a  Back- Woods  vote" — 
that  force,  which  moves  in  solid  phalanx,  always  advancing,  never  relenting,  never 
breaking. 

The  Commons  of  Great  Britain  claimed  power  over  our  property,  and  we  insisted 
that  the  control  over  it  belonged,  of  right  and  exclusively,  to  us  the  owners  :  so  our 
fellow-citizens  of  the  west  ask  us  to  give  them  the  absolute  power  of  taxation  over 
us,  and  we  insist  on  retainin,g  that  power  in  our  own  hands.  The  Commons  of  Great 
Britain  claimed  to  exact  "a  pepper-corn"  from  us,  voting  millions  of  their  own  :  our 
brethren  of  the  west  only  ask  power  to  take  three  dollars  of  our  money  for  every  dol- 
lar they  contribute  of  theirs.  Let  a  fair  comparison  be  made,  and  then  determine 
which  claim  is  the  more  reasonable,  or  the  more  abhorrent  from  justice,  safety  and 
liberty.  Our  fathers  stood  justified  before  the  nations  and  before  high  Heaven  too,  in 
resisting  the  pretensions  of  Great  Britain,  by  all  the  means  that  God  and  nature  put 
into  their  hands. 

And  now.  Sir,  let  me  be  distinctly  understood.  Attachment  to  this,  my  native  • 
State,  to  every  foot  of  her  soil,  to  every  interest  of  all  her  citizens,  has  been  my  ru 
ling  passion  from  my  youth—so  strong,  that  it  is  now  (what  all  attachments  to  be  use-  " 
ful  to  its  objects,  must  be)  a  prejudice— I  hardly  recollect  the  reasons  on  which  it  was 
founded.  None  that  know  me,  will  doubt  this.  I  foresaw,  I  foretold,  this  fearful, 
distracting  conflict.  I  looked  to  it  with  terror  from  the  first,  and  I  look  to  its  con- 
sequences with  horror  now.  I  have  trembled — I  have  burned.  I  raised  my  Cassan- 
dra voice,  to  warn  and  to  deprecate — if  I  had  the  strength  to  make  it  heard,  I  wanted 
weight  of  character  to  make  it  heeded.  Never  till  then  had  I  felt  the  want  of  politi- 
cal influence,  or  lamented  that  I  had  disdained  the  ordinary  methods  of  acquiring  it 
in  my  earlier  years,  though  probably  no  efforts  would  have  been  successful.  My  feel- 
ings, my  reason,  my  prejudices,  my  principles,  all  assure  me,  that  the  dismemberment 
of  the  State  must  be  fraught  with  cruel  evils  to  us  of  the  east,  and  stiil  more  cruel 
evils  to  our  brethren  of  the  west.  Yet,  Sir — and  the  bfood  curdles  in  my  veins  while 
I  make  the  avowal — I  shall  avow,  that  the  preservation  of  the  Commonwealth  in  its 
integrity,  is  only  the  second  wish  of  my  heart :  the  first  is,  that  it  may  be  preserved 
entire  under  a  fair,  equal,  regular,  republican  Government,  founded  in  the  great  in- 
terests that  are  common  to  us  all,  and  on  a  just  balance  of  those  interests  that  are 
conflicting. 

Sir,  the  resolution  reported  by  the  Legislative  Committee,  in  effect,  proposes  to  di- 
vorce power  from  property^ — to  base  representation  on  numbers  alone,  though  num- 
bers do  not  quadrate  with  property — though  mountains  rise  between  them — to  trans- 
fer, in  the  course  of  a  very  few  yeai-s,  the  weight  of  power  over  taxation  and  property 
to  the  west,  though  it  be  admitted,  on  all  hands,  that  the  far  greater  mass  of  property 
is  nov/,  and  must  still  be  held  in  the  east.  Power  and  property  may  be  separated  for 
a  time,  by  force  or  fraud — but  divorced,  never.  For,  so  soon  as  the  pang  of  separation 
is  felt — if  tlie-re  be  truth  in  history,  if  there  be  any  certainty  in  the  experience  of  ages, 
if  all  pretensions  to  knowledge  of  the  human  heart  be  not  vanity  and  folly — property 
will  purchase  power,  or  power  will  take  property.  And  either  way,  there  must  be  an 
end  of  free  Government.  If  property  buy  power,  the  very  process  is  corruption. 
If  power  ravish  property,  the  sword  must  be  drawn— so  essential  is  property  to  the 
very  being  of  civilized  society,  and  so  certain  that  civilized  man  will  never  consent  to 
return  to  a  savage  state.  Corruption  and  violence  alike  terminate  in  military  despo- 
tism. All  the  Republics  in  the  world  have  died  this  death.  In  the  pursuit  of  a  wild  im- 
practicable liberty,  the  people  have  first  become  disgusted  with  all  regular  Government, 
then  violated  the  security  of  property  which  regular  Government  alone  can  defend, 
and  been  glad  at  last  to  find  a  master.  License,  is  not  liberty,  but  the  bane  of  liberty. 
There  is  a  book — but  the  author  was  a  tory,  an  English  tory,  and  he  wrote  before  the 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONYEXTIOX. 


157 


American  Pvevolution,  so  that  I  am  almost  afraid  to  refer  to  it — yet  I  will — there  is  an 
Essay  of  Swift  on  the  dissentions  of  Athens  aJid  Rome,  in  which  the  downfall  of  those 
Republics,  is  clearly  traced  to  the  same  fatal  error  of  placing  power  over  property  in 
different  hands  from  those  that  held  the  property.  The  manner  of  doing  the  mischief 
there,  was  the  vesting  of  all  the  powers  of  judicature  m  the  people  ;  but  no  matter  how 
the  manner  may  be  varied,  the  principle  is  the  same.  There  has  been  no  change  in  the 
natural  feelingfs.  passions  and  appetites  of  men,  any  more  than  in  their  outward  form, 
from  the  davs  of  Solon  to  those  of  George  Washington.  Like  political  or  moral  causes 
put  in  action,  have  ever  produced,  and  must  forever  produce,  every  where,  like  effects 
— in  Athens,  in  Rome,  in  France,  in  America. 

The  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  proposes  to  give  to  those  who  have 
comparatively  little  property,  power  over  those  who  have  a  great  deal — to  give  to 
those  who  contribute  the  least,  the  power  of  taxation  over  those  who  contribute  the 
most,  to  the  public  treasury — and  (v.-hat  seems  most  straftge  and  incongruous)  to  give 
the  power  over  property  to  numbers  alone,  in  that  branch  of  the  Legislature  w-Hick 
should  be  the  especial  guardian  of  property— in  the  revenue-giving  branch.  To  my 
mind,  Sir,  the  scheme  is  irreconcilable  with  the  fundamental  principle  of  representa- 
tive Government,  and  mihtates  against  its  peculiar  mode  of  operation,  in  producing 
liberty  at  first,  and  then  nurturing,  fostering,  defending-  and  preserving  it,  for  a  thou- 
sand years,  ^l}-  friend  from  Hanover,  (Mr.  ^lorris)  has  already  explained  to  the  Com- 
mittee, how  the  institution  of  the  House  of  Commons  in  England,  grew  out  of  the 
necessities  of  the  Crown  to  ask  aids  from  the  people.  The  free  spirit  of  the  Sajxon 
laws,  mingling  with  the  sterner  spirit  of  the  feudal  system,  had  decreed  that  property 
was  sacred.  The  lawful  prerogative  of  the  Crown  at  no  time  extended  to  taxation ; 
and  if  violence  was  sometimes  resorted  to,  the  supphes  it  collected  were  scant  and 
temporary.  Originally,  the  whole  function  of  the  House  of  Commo?is,  was  to  give 
money  ;  but  the  money  being  theirs,  it  belonged  to  them  to  say,  when,  how  much,  for 
what  purpose,  they  would  give  it.  From  the  first,  and  invariably  to  this  day.  the 
Commons  have  been  the  sole  representative  of  property — the  Lords  never  have  been 
regarded  in  that  hght.  And  from  this  power  of  the  Commons  to  give  or  withhold  mo- 
ney, have  sprung  all  the  liberties  of  England — all  that  has  distinguished  that  nation 
from  the  other  nations  of  Europe.  They  used  their  pov\-er  over  the  purse,  to  extort 
freedom  from  the  necessities  of  the  King — and  then  to  secure  and  defend  it — they 
made  his  ambition,  his  waste,  his  ver}'-  vices,  work  in  favor  of  liberty.  Every  spark 
of  English  libc-rty  was  kindled  at  that  golden  lamp.  I  ask  money" — said  the  Crown 
— "  money  to  resist  or  to  conquer  your  enemies  and  mine  " — give  us  privileges  then'' 
(w^as  the  constant  answer,)  acknowledge  and  secure  our  rights ;  and  in  order  to  se- 
cure them,  put  them  into  our  own  keeping." — Sir.  I  know  it  is  the  fashion  to  decry 
every  thing  that  is  English,  m  supposed  to  be  so  ;  I  know  that  in  the  opinion  of  manv, 
it  is  enough  to  condemn  any  proposition,  in  morals,  or  in  politics,  to  denounce  it  as 
English  doctrine  ;  but  that  is  neither  my  opinion  nor  my  feeling.  I  know  well  euouo-h 
that  the  sentiment  is  unpopular — but  I  laid  it  down  as  a  law'  to  myself  when  I  enter- 
ed this  CcAivention,  to  conceal  no  feeling  and  no  thought  I  entertain,  and  never  to 
vary  in  the  least  from  an  exact  exhibition  of  my  opinions,  so  far  as  it  is  in  the  power 
of  words  to  paint  the  mind — and  I  have  no  hesitation  in  saying,  in  the  face  of  the 
whole  world,  that  the  English  Government,  is  a  free  Government,  and  the  Enoiish 
people  a  free  people.  1  pray  gentlemen  to  cast  their  eyes  over  the  habitable  gfobe, 
survey  every  form  of  civil  Government,  examine  the  condition  of  every  society— and 
point  me  out  one,  if  they  can,  who  has  even  so  much  as  a  conception,  and  much  more 
the  enjoyment,  of  civil  liberty,  in  our  sense  of  it,  save  only  the  British  nation  and 
their  descendants.  England  Was  the  inventor,  the  founder  of  that  representative  Gov- 
ernment we  so  justly  and  so  highh-  prize.  I  shall,  therefore,  still  study  her  institu- 
tions;  exercise  my  judgment  in  ascertaining  what  is  vitious,  or  rotten,  or  unsuitable 
to  our  condition ;  and  rejecting  that,  hold  fast  to  all  that  is  sound  and  wise  and  good, 
and  proved  by  experience  to  be  fit  and  capable  to  secure  liberty  and  property  f  pro- 
perty, without  which  liberty  can  never  exist,  or  if  it  could,  would  be  valueless^  Give 
me  liberty  in  the  English  sense — liberty  fotmded  on  law,  and  protected  by  law — no 
liberty  held  at  the  will  of  demagogue  or  tyrant  (for  I  have  no  choice  between  tliem) 
—-no  liberty  for  me  to  prey  on  others^no  hberty  for  others  to  prey  on  me.  I  want 
no  French  liberty — none  a  liberty  which  first  attacked  property,  then  the  hves  of  its 
foes,  then  those  of  its  friends  ;  which  prostrated  all  religion  and'morals  ;  setup  nature 
and  reason,  as  Goddesses  to  be  worshipped;  afterwards  condescended  to  decree,  that 
there  is  a  God  :  and,  at  last,  embraced  iron  despotism  as  its  heaven-destined  spouse. 
Sir,  the  true,  the  peculiar  advantage  of  the  principle  of  representative  Government,  is, 
that  it  holds  Government  absolutely  dependent  on  individual  property — that  it  gives 
the  owner  of  property  an  interest  to  watch  the  Government — that  it 'puts  the  purse- 
strings  in  the  hands  of  its  owners.  Leave  those  who  are  to  contribute  money,  to  deter- 
mine the  measme  and  the  object  of  contribution,  and  none  will  ever  knowingly  give 
their  money  to  destroy  tlieir  own  liberty.    Give  to  those  who  are  not  to  contrib'utej 


158 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


the  power  to  determine  the  measure  and  object  of  the  contribution  of  others,  and  they 
may  give  it  to  destroy  those  from  whom  it  is  thiis  unjustly  taken.  From  this  false 
principle,  the  scheme  of  representation  in  question,  is  variant  only  in  degree — it  only 
proposes  to  give  one  portion  of  the  people,  power  to  take  three  dollars  from  another, 
for  every  dollar  they  contribute  of  their  own.  I  say,  therefore,  that  the  plan  is  at  war 
with  the  first  principle  of  representative  Government — and  if  it  prevail,  must  destroy 
it — how  soon,  depends  not  on  the  wretched  finite  wisdom  of  man,  but  on  the  provi- 
dence of  God. 

The  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  proposes  to  give  the  west  power  of 
taxation  over  the  east,  though  it  be  apparent,  that,  in  some  respects,  concerning  as 
well  the  objects  of  taxes  as  the  subjects  of  appropriation,  the  west  has  not  only  no 
common  interest  with  the  east,  but  a  cofitrary  or  different  interest.  The  interest  of 
the  west  is  contrary  to  ours,  in  regard  to  slaves  considered  as  a  subject  of  taxation, 
certainly  and  obviously.  The  unavoidable  inequality  of  taxation  upon  all  subjects, 
and  the  unavoidable  equality  of  benefit  from  the  revenue,  give  the  west  an  interest  to 
augment,  and  the  east  an  interest  to  reduce,  the  amount  of  taxes.  And,  as  to  those 
internal  improvements,  those  roads  and  canals,  which  seem,  in  the  opinions  of  many, 
to  be  the  only  objects  of  Government,  let  any  man  survey  the  face  of  the  country, 
and  deny,  if  he  can,  that  different,  more  extensive,  and  more  expensive,  works  of  the 
kind,  are  wanted,  and  even  projected,  in  the  west  and  in  the  north,  than  are  wanted 
or  have  ever  entered  into  the  imagination  of  the  east  and  the  south.  They  would  ex- 
pend thousands  where  we  would  expend  hundreds ;  that  is,  of  our  money ;  for  if  the 
expenditure  was  to  be  of  their  own,  I  cannot  doubt  they  would  grudge  it  as  much  as 
we  do,  or  more.  But  this  has  been  already  fully  explained  by  the  gentleman  from 
Fauquier.  We  are  asked,  gravely  and  importunately  asked,  and  in  a  tone  as  if  they 
thought  the  request  the  most  reasonable  in  the  world,  to  give  them  povver  to  tax  us 
three  times  as  much  as  themselves,  when  their  great  object  can  only  be,  to  apply  the 
revenue  (after  providing  for,  perhaps  stinting,  the  civil  list)  to  those  internal  improve- 
ments they  have  so  much  at  heart.  Let  it  be  always  remembered,  that  as  the  east  has 
never  hitherto  imposed  any  burdens,  which  have  not  borne  more  heavily  on  ourselves 
than  on  our  western  brethren,  so  neither  will  it  ever  be  possible  for  the  east,  if  the 
taxes  be  uniform,  as  uniform  they  must  be,  to  levy  any  exactions  on  the  west,  which 
will  not  be  more  grievous  to  ourselves,  so  long  as  we  hold  a  so  much  larger  mass  of 
taxable  property :  whereas  the  west  may,  by  a  uniform  taxation,  impose  oppressive 
burdens  on  the  east,  which  its  own  population  will  hardly  feel  the  weight  of.  I  should 
be  sorry  to  say  any  thing  offensive  to  gentlemen  from  any  quarter — but  I  must  follow 
the  fights  of  my  own  mind,  and  declare  it  as  my  opinion,  that  the  cunning  of  man, 
or  of  the  devil,  cannot  devise  a  more  vexatious  and  grinding  tyranny  for  any  people, 
than  to  subject  them  to  taxation  by  those,  who  have  not  the  same  interest  with  them, 
much  more  who  have  interests  contrary  to  or  different  from  theirs. 

The  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  proposes  to  give  full  representation  to 
the  labour  of  the  west,  with  an  exemption  from  taxation,  while  the  labour  of  the  east 
will  be  subjected  to  taxation  deprived  of  representation. 

The  complaint  seems  to  shock  gentlemen — I  shall  repeat  my  words.  (He  repeated 
them)— In  every  civilized  country  under  the  sun,  some  there  must  be  who  labour  for 
tlieir  daily  bread,  either  by  contract  with,  or  subjection  to  others,  or  for  themselves. 
Slaves,  in  the  eastern  part  of  this  State,  fill  the  place  of  the  peasantry  of  Europe — 
of  the  peasantry  or  day-labourers  in  the  non-slave-holding  States  of  this  Union.  The 
denser  the  population,  the  more  numerous  will  this  class  be.  Even  in  the  present 
state  of  the  population  beyond  the  Alleghany,  there  must  be  some  peasantry,  and  as 
the  country  fills  up,  they  will  scarcely  have  more — that  is,  men  who  tend  the  herds 
and  dig  the  soil,  who  have  neither  real  nor  personal  capital  of  their  own,  and  who 
earn  their  daily  bread  by  the  sweat  of  their  brow.  These,  by  this  scheme,  are  all  to 
be  represented — but  none  of  our  slaves.  And  yet,  in  political  a'conomy,  the  latter  fill 
exactly  the  same  place.  Slaves,  indeed,  are  not  and  never  will  be  comparable  with 
,  the  hardy  peasantry  of  the  mountains,  in  intellectual  power,  in  moral  worth,  in  all 
that  determines  man's  degree  in  the  moral  scale,  and  raises  him  above  the  brute — I 
beg  pardon,  his  Maker  placed  him  above  the  brute — above  the  savage — above  that 
wretched  state,  of  which  the  only  comfort  is  the  natural  rights  of  man.  I  have  as 
sincere  feelings  of  regard  for  that  people,  as  any  man  who  lives  among  them.  But  I 
ask  gentlemen  to  say,  v»rhether  they  believe,  that  those  who  are  obliged  to  depend  on 
their  daily  labour  for  daily  subsistence,  can,  or  do  ever  enter  into  political  affairs  ? 
They  never  do — never  will — never  can.  Educated  myself  to  a  profession,  which  in 
this  country  has  been  supposed  to  fit  the  mind  for  the  duties  of  the  Statesman,  I  have 
yet  never  had  occasion  to  turn  my  mind  to  any  general  question  of  politics,  without 
feeling  the  effect  of  professional  habits  to  narrow  and  contract  the  mind.  If  others 
are  more  fortunate,  I  congratulate  them.  Now,  what  real  share,  so  far  a*mind  is  con- 
cerned, does  any  man  suppose  the  peasantry  of  the  west— that  peasantry,  which  it 
must  have  when  the  country  is  as  completely  filled  up  with  day-labourers  as  ours  is  of 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


159 


slaves— can  or  will  take  in  affairs  of  State  ?  Gentlemen  may  say,  their  labourers  are  . 
the  most  inteUisfent  on  earth — which  I  hope  is  true — that  tliey  will  rise  to  political 
intelho-ence.  But,  when  any.  rise,  otliers  must  supply  the  place  they  rise  from.  What 
then,  IS  the  practical  effect  of  the  scheme  of  representation  in  question  ?  Simply,  that 
the  men  of  property  of  the  west,  shall  be  allowed  a  representation  for  all  their  day- 
labourers,  without  "contributing  an  additional  cent  of  revenue,  and  that  the  men  of 
property  of  the  east,  shall  contribute  in  proportion  to  all  the  slave-labour  they  employ, 
without  any  additional  representation.  Sir,  I  am  against  all  this — I  am  for  a  repre- 
sentation of  every  interest  in  society — for  poising  and  balancing  all  interests — for 
saving  each  and  all,  from  the  sin  of  oppressing,  and  from  the  curse  of  being  oppres- 
sed. 

Sir,  the  amendment  offered  by  my  honorable  friend  from  Culpeper,  is  a  scheme  for 
balancing  the  various  interests  of  the  Commonwealth  with  exact  and  equal  justice — 
not  deprmng  numbers  of  their  due  weight,  for  it  allows  them  full  representation — yet 
allowing  property  also  that  fair,  due  and  just  share  (;f  representation,  wliich  is  essen- 
tial to  its  protection  and  security.  It  proposes  to  build  up  Government  on  the  interests 
of  society,  with  due  reo-ard  to  the  rights  both  of  persons  and  property ;  and  to  confide 
power  to  those  whose  self-love  will  forever  prevent  them  from  abusing  it.  If  gentle- 
men prefer  the  federal  number  as  the  basis  of  representation,  I  shall  l^e  content.  If 
they  prefer  a  county  representation,  founded  on  any  fair  principle,  respecting  peculiar 
interests,  and  balancing  the  powers  of  Government  accordingly — though  I  am  sensible 
that  this  will  be  a  more  difficult  operation — I  shall  be  content.  But  I  must  forever 
contend,  that  a  principle,  which,  in  a  Government  professedly  instituted  for  the  pro- 
tection and  security  of  property  as  well  as  mere  personal  rights,  disclaims  all  regard  to 
the  interests  of  property,  and  allows  representation  to  numbers  only,  is  dangerous  and 
vitious,  contrary  to  all  the  dictates  of  prudence  and  justice,  and  incompatible  with 
the  nature  of  representative  Government,  its  wliolesome  operation  and  all  its  ends. 

To  reconcile  us  to  a  scheme  so  revolting,  gentlemen  tell  us,  in  the  first  place,  that 
the  question  has  been  settled  by  precedent — that  it  is  res  acl judicata.  I  said,  that  to 
found  Government  (meaning  the  tcliole  Government,)  on  nxmibers  alone,  without  re- 
gard whether  the  numbers  quadrated  with  the  interests  of  society  or  not,  was  a  new 
principle  in  Virginia,  and  perhaps  unknown  in  an}'  other  Government.  I  did  not  say, 
that  no  part  or  single  branch  of  a  Government  had  ever  been  laid  on  that  foundation 
— I  did  not  say,  that  no  individual  had  ever  maintained  the  principle — I  learned  at 
school,  (from  Tully,  I  think.)  that  there  is  nothing  so  absurd  which  some  philosophers 
have  not  maintained  for  truth  ;  and  it  might  have  been  added,  that  there  is  nothing  so 
unjust,  which  some  politicians  have  not  supported  as  right.  The  precedents  which 
are  supposed  to  have  settled  this  question,  are  the  vote  of  the  Staunton  Convention 
in  1815,  forsooth,  insisting  that  representation  in  the  Legislature  ought  to  be  equahzed 
on  the  basis  of  white  population,  and  the  act  of  1816,  equahzing  and  arranging  the 
representation  in  the  Senate,  upon  that  principle,  after  fiill  deliberation.  But  the^prin- 
ciple  was  then  applied  to  only  one  branch  of  the  Legislatxire,  and  that  not  the  tax- 
giving  branch — and  I,  for  one,  shall  be  content  with  that  principle  of  representation 
in  the, Senate  now — I  voted  for  it  yesterday,  and  will  abide  by  the  vote,  if  gentlemen, 
on  their  part,  will  pay  a  just  regard  to  the  interests  of  property,  in  the  tax-giving 
branch,  the  House  of  Delegates.  Is  not  the  difference  wide  as  the  poles  asunder,  be- 
tween the  two  questions,  whether  there  shall  be  a  representation  for  the  interests  of 
property  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  the  tax-giving  House and,  whether  property 
shall  be  represented  in  the  Senate,  which  is  not  the  tax-giving  House But  I  do  not 
r^fer  to  the  act  of  1816,  to  repel  its  influence  as  a  precedent,  on  the  present  question 
— I  know  to  whom  I  am  talking — there  is  not  a  man  here  who  will  pay  the  least  regard 
to  any  such  precedent.  In  another  view,  tliat  transaction  gave  me  a  lesson,  of  which 
I  hope  I  shall  never  cease  to  profit — I  remember  well  every  fact  connected  with  its 
history,  its  origin,  progress,  and  final  consummation — and  shall  remember  it  all,  to 
the  last  day  of  my  life.  They  demanded  the  call  of  a  Convention,  of  those,  who,  ad- 
mitting that  there  were  some  defects  in  the  Constitution  wliich  time  had  developed, 
(since  no  work  of  im.perfect  man  can  be  perfect,)  and  especially  the  then  inequality 
of  representation  in  the  Senate,  yet  thought  that  veneration  for  ancient  and  tried  in- 
stitutions, and  loyalty  founded  in  the  lieart  rather  than  in  the  speculations  of  reason, 
were  the  best  supports  of  Republican  Government,  and  worthy  to  be  preserved  at  any 
expense.  The  demand  was  addressed  to  such  men  as  my  friend  from  Norfolk  (Mr. 
Tazewell)  who  had,  like  me,  fallen  into  that  fatuity  of  judgment,  wliich  deems  virtu- 
ous prejudices  virtuous  principles.  To  avoid  the  call  of  a  Convention,  the  bill  for 
equahzing  the  representation  in  the  Senate,  on  the  basis  of  tlie  white  population,  was, 
in  an  evil  hour,  passed — I  had  no  share  in  it — I  thank  Heaven  for  all  its  mercies,  none. 
They  told  us,  they  would  be  content — that  that  measure  would  satisfy  all  their  wishes 
— that  they  too,  loved  the  Government  which  the  wisdom  of  our  fathers  gave,  and 
with  such  a  representation  in  the  Senate,  they  would  never  seek  to  disturb  it  more. 
.  And  the  gentlemaii  from  Culpeper  (Mr.  Green)  gave  warning,  that  if  the  claim  to 


IGO 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


representation  in  the  Senate  on  tlie  basis  of  white  population  was  conceded,  the  con- 
cession would  only  be  the  motive  to  new  demands.  He  has  lived  to  be  acknowledged 
for  a  prophet  even  in  his  own  country.  So,  now,  give  them  their  favourite  principle 
of  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates — and  guard  property  from  taxation  for 
any  favourite  purpose  by  any  effectual  guarantee,  if  such  a  thing  be  possible — or  at- 
tempt to  secure  property,  by  giving  it  full  representation  in  the  Senate — the  moment 
the  new  power  of  the  State  shall  feel  any  check  upon  its  action,  and  can  no  otherwise 
overcome  it,  it  will  raise  another  clamor  for  Convention,  to  cut  the  knot  that  cannot 
be  untied.  It  is  as  true  of  the  love  of  power  as  it  is  of  the  love  of  gold,  (>iio  pins  ha- 
bet,  eo  plus  cupit.  Talk  of  power  resting  content  while  any  power  remains  to  be  ac- 
quired— talk  of  it  to  any  green,  very  green  person — but  for  the  love  of  mercy,  mock 
us  no  more,  by  reminding  us  of  the  history  of  that  Senatorial  bill.  As  to  the  bill  of 
the  last  session  for  organizing  this  body  on  the  basis  of  the  Congressional  districts,  it 
is  not  worth  while  to  explain  the  way  in  which  it  was  lost — the  gentleman  from  Albe- 
marle is  best  able  to  do  it. 

The  next  argument  for  the  basis  of  white  population  exclusively,  is  deduced  from 
the  natural  rights  of  man.  I  think  the  genius  of  the  gentleman  from  Northampton 
(Mr.  Upshur)  has  laid  a  spell  on  that  doctrine,  as  one  fit  for  any  practical  use.  We 
are  employed  in  forming  a  Government  for  civilized  man,  not  for  a  horde  of  savao-es 
just  emerging  from  an  imaginary  state  of  nature.  If  the  latter  was  our  purpose,  I 
doubt  whether  we  or  they  would  think  at  all  about  their  natural  rights.  Their  politi- 
cal destiny  would  be  determined  by  circumstances,  which  political  philosophy  would 
be  little  fitted  to  control.  I  cannot  conceive  any  natural  right  of  man  contra-distin- 
guished from  social  Conventional  right — The  very  word  right  is  a  word  of  relation, 
and  implies  some  society.  While  Robinson  Crusoe  was  alone  in  his  Island,  what 
were  his  rights  ?  To  catch  the  goats  and  tame  them — to  kill  their  kids  and  eat  them. 
When  Friday  came,  how  did  they  regulate  their  natural  rights?  He  saved  Friday's 
life — he  gave  him  bread — and  Friday  became  his  servant.  And  that,  I  believe,  was 
about  as  republican  a  Government  as  any  men  thus  fortuitously  brought  together, 
would  ever  form — the  stror.ger  would  be  master.  By  the  way,  I  think  Defoe's  a  bet- 
ter book  on  the  science  of  Government,  than  Cocker's  Arithmetic  or  Pike's  either. 
But  gentlemen  may  have  just  what  system  of  natural  rights  they  like  best — provided 
they  v.'ill  only  grant  me,  that,  either  by  natural  law,  or  Conventional  law,  or  munici- 
pal law,  or  \he,  jus  gentium — aat  quocunque  alio  nomine  vocatur — every  man  is  entitled 
to  the  property  he  lias  earned  by  his  own  labor  and  to  that  which  his  parents  earned 
and  transmitted  to  him  by  inheritance— ^and  that  what  is  hi&  property  is  his  to  give, 
and  his  to  dispose  of.  These,  I  hope,  are  reasonable  postulates :  and  I  am  much  mis- 
taken if  they  do  not  lead,  by  fair  induction,  to  the  utter  overthrow  of  the  resolution 
of  the  Legislative  Committee,  and  to  the  establishment  of  the  proposed  amend- 
ment on  irrefragable  grounds. 

Then  gentlemen  urge  our  own  Bill  of  Rights  upon  us,  as  perfectly  conclusive — ■ 
and  to  the  amazement  of  some  and  the  amusement  of  others  of  this  Committee,  gen- 
tlemen, founding  their  whole  argument  on  the  Bill  of  Rights,  deny  the  competency 
of  the  Convention  of  '76 — and,  by  consequence,  one  would  think,  the  authority  of 
the  Bill  of  Rights.  Mr.  Jefferson  was  the  first  person  that  brought  this  charge  of  u- 
surpation  against  that  Convention — and  (so  important  are  great  men's  errors)  tho'  with 
him  it  seemed  rather  matter  of  curious  speculation  only,  yet  ever  since,  when  our  old  • 
Constitution  has  been  assailed  for  its  supposed  defects,  this  opinion  of  Mr.  Jefferson 
has  been  referred  to  as  conclusive  authority.  I  had  implicit  faith  in  the  opinion  my- 
self when  I  was  at  College — how  long  after  I  cannot  say,  not  being  able  to  fix  the 
date  when  my  mind  came  to  maturity.  At  what  period  Mr.  Jefferson  discovered  the 
incompetency  of  the  Convention  of  '76,  it  were  vain  to  conjecture — but  I  apprehend, 
it  was  not  during  the  session  of  that  bod}^ — for  I  know  that  Mr.  J,  himself  pre- 
pared a  Constitution  for  Virginia,  and  sent  it  to  Williamsburg  that  it  might  be  pro- 
posed to  the  Convention,  during  the  session,  from  which  the  preamble  and  nothing 
more,  was  taken  and  prefixed  to  the  present  Constitution.  Any  one  may  see,  at  a 
glance,  that  that  preamble  was  written  by  the  author  of  the  Declaration  of  Indepen- 
dence. I  have  seen  the  projet  of  the  Constitution,  which  Mr.  J.  offered,  in  the  coun- 
cil chamber,  in  his  own  hand  writing,  tho'  it  cannot  now  be  found — and  T  have  since 
cursed  my  folly  that  I  neglected  to  take  a  copy  of  it,  in  order  to  compare  Mr.  J's  de- 
mocracy of  that  day,  with  George  Mason's  practical  republicanism.  But,  Sir,  the  va- 
lidity of  the  Constitution,  as  such,  has  been  maintained  by  Pendleton,  Wythe,  Roane, 
by  the  whole  Commonwealth  for  fifty-four  years.  If  the  Convention  of  '76  was  in- 
competent to  that  act,  it  was  incompetent  also  to  abolish  the  Colonial  Government, 
and  that  yet  remains  in  force,  in  like  manner  as  the  Colonial  form  of  Government  of 
Connecticut  was  retained  for  years ;  and  all  the  objections  to  the  authority  of  our 
Convention  of  '76,  might  be  urged  with  equal  force,  against  all  the  Constitutions  es- 
tablished in  our  sister  States  during  the  revolution.  It  is  said  the  existing  Constitu- 
tion is  not  a  lawful  Government,  because  it  was  ordained  by  the  representatives  of  the 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


161 


freeholders  only,  and  never  submitted  to  the  great  body  of  the  people.  To  whom  is 
it  intended,  that  OM/*  amended  or  new  Constitution  shall  be  submitted?  To  those,  I 
presume,  to  whom  we  shall  allow  the  right  of  suffrage — that  is,  if  gentlemen  succeed 
according  to  their  wishes  in  that  particular,  to  lease-holders,  house-keepers  and  tax- 
payers, as  well  as  freeholders.  It  is  a  remarkable  truth,  in  the  natural  history  of  man 
in  this  country,  that  the  sons  are  invariably  wiser  than  their  fathers,  such  is  the  march 
of  mind  1  Our  sons  may  allege,  hereafter,  that  our  acts  never  had  the  sanction  of  the 
people — why  did  we  exclude  women  and  children  ?  Why  minors,  tho'  enrolled  iu 
the  militia,  and  bomid  to  bear  arras Why  paupers,  whose^onh-  sin  is  poverty  ?  Nay, 
why  the  felons  in  the  Penitentiary  r  All  are  part  of  the  sfreat  bodv  of  the  people. 
Sir,  if  we  shall  acknowledge,  that  we  are  at  this  moment  in  a  state  of  nature ;  that 
men  have  resumed  their  natural  rights,  and  are  entitled  to  insist  on  them  to  the  ut- 
termost; we  may  live  to  see  the  day.  when  it  will  be  claimed  as  matter  of  right,  that 
the  keeper  of  the  Penitentiary  shall  isring  his  prisoners  to  tli«  polls. 

iVow,  as  to  the  Bill  of  Pi,ights — The  first  article  declares,  that  "  all  men  are  by  na- 
ture equally  free  and  independent,  and  have  certain  inherent  rights,  of  which,  when 
they  enter  into  a  state  of  society,  they  cannot,  by  any  compact,  deprive  or  divest  their 
posterity ;  namely,  the  enjoj'ment  of  hfe  and  liberty,  with  the  means  of  acquiring 
and  possessing  property,  and  pursuing  and  obtaining  happiness  and  safety." — The  ar- 
ticle enumerates  property  as  equally  deaj  and  sacred  with  life  and  liberty,  and  as  the 
principal  means  of  happiness  and' safety — and  with  good  reason — for,  in  order  to  live 
free  and  happy  it  is  necessary  that  we  live,  and  property  is  necessary  to  sustain  life, 
and  just  as  necessary  to  maintain  liberty.  Yet  property  is  to  be  wholly  disregarded 
in  our  fundamental  institutions  1 — But.  not  to  repeat  what  has  been  better  said  by 
others,  I  shall  desire  the  committee  to  remember,  that  this  article  is  expressed  in  the 
language  of  Locke's  theory  of  government,  then  familiarly  known ;  and  that_ Locke,, 
no  more  than  the  Convention  of  '76,  understood  the  proposition  in  the  broad  sense 
now  ascribed  to  it.  Locke  has  had  a  singular  fate.  He  was  a  zealous  advocate  of 
mixed  monarch}' — liis  Essay  on  Government  was  written  to  maintain  the  throne  of 
William  and  Mary — his  notions  of  practical  Government,  are  exhibited  in  the  Con- 
stitution he  made  for  North  Carolina,  with  its  caciques  and  land-graves  :  3-et,  from  his: 
book,  have  been  deduced  the  wildest  democracy,  and  demented  French  jacobinism. 
He  exploded  the  rioht  divine  of  Kings — he  showed  that  all  Government  is  of  human 
institution ;  yet  he  is  supposed  to  have  established  the  divine  right  of  democracy.  So,, 
he  was  a  pious  Christian  of  the  Church  of  England — of  the  low  Church,  however — > 
yet,  from  his  chapter  on  innate  ideas,  in  his  Essay  on  the  Human  Understanding,  infi- 
dels have  deduced  the  doctrines  of  materialism,  infidelity  and  atheism.  The  truth  is, 
that  there  is  no  proposition  in  ethics  or  politics,  however  "true  when  duly  measured  aird 
applied,  which,  if  pushed  to  extremes,  will  not  lead  to  absurdity  or  vice.  It  does  not 
follow,  that,  because  all  men  are  born  equal,  and  have  equal  rights  to  hfe,  liberty,  and 
the  property  they  can  acquire  by  honest  industry,  therefore,  all  men  may  rightly 
claun,  in  an  established  society,  equal  political  powers — especially,  equal  power  to 
dispose  of  the  property  of  others. 

It  is  very  remarkable.  Sir,  that  both  the  gentlemen  from  Frederick.  (jNIr.  Cooke  and 
Mr.  Powell,)  in  founding  the  argument,  they  endeavoured  to  deduce  from  the  third 
article  of  the  Bill  of  Rights,  read  to  the  Committee,  only  the  first  and  third  senten- 
ces of  it,  which  seem  to  suit  their  purposes,  and  oni'tted  the  intermediate  sentence,  so 
material  to  the  just  understanding  of  the  doctrine  the  article  inculcates,  and  so  oppo- 
site to  the  conclusions  at  which  they  were  aiming.  I  acquit  them  of  all  wilful  un- 
fairness— the  respect  I  bear  them,  would  not  endure  any  suspicion  of  the  kind — but 
the  omission  is  a  striking  instance,  how  prone  are  the  minds  of  men,  studiously  bent 
on  maintaining  a  favorite  point,  to  overlook,  rather  tlian  to  meet,,  difficulties,  however 
obvious.  The  whole  article  reads, — That  Government  is.  or  ought  to  be,  instituted 
for  the  common  benefit,  protection  and  security  of  the  people,  nation  or  community. — 
Of  all  the  various  modes  and  forms  of  Government,  that  is  best,  which  is  capable  cf 
producing;  the  greatest  deoree  of  happiness  and  safety,  and  is  most  efiectualh'  secured 
against  the  dangers  of  mal-administration — and  when  any  Government  shall  be  found 
inadequate  or  contrary  to  these  purposes,  a  majority  of  the-Commonwealth  hath  an 
indubitable,  unalienable,  and  indefeasible  right  to  reform,  alter,  or  abolish  it,  in  such 
manner  as  shall  be  judged  most  conducive  to  the  public  weal." — Frtmi  the  first  sen- 
tence, the  gentlemen  deduced  the  perfect  equality  of  men  in  a  social  state — not  as  to 
civil  rights  only,  but  political  powers  ;  emd  from  the  last,  the  absolute  despotic  right 
of  a  bare  majority,  to  change  the  fundamental  laws,  and  to  assume  to  themselves  un- 
der a  new  form  o"f  polity,  the  sovereign  power  to  govern  without  limitation  or  check. 
Read  the  whole  article,  and  it  will  be  seen,  thafit  means  to  declare,  that  when  the 
existing  Government  fails  to  produce  happiness  and  safety ;  fails  to  protect  property 
as  well  as  liberty,  which  in  the  first  article  are  recognized,  as  the  means  of  happiness 
and  safet}- ;  and  appears  not  to  be  effectually  secured  against  the  dangers  of  mal-ad- 
ministration :  then,  and  not  till  then,  the  majority  has  the  ricrht  to  reform,  alter  or 

21 


162 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION, 


abolish  it,  and  to  substitute  another,  better  calculated  to  produce  happiness  and  safety ; 
better  suited  to  secure  life,  liberty,  a.nd  property  without  which  neither  life  nor  liberty 
can  be  enjoyed  or  maintained  ;  and  more  effectually  secured  agaisst  the  dangers  of 
mal-administration.  But  so  long  as  the  established  Governmeni:  answers  those  cardi- 
nal purposes  of  its  institution,  the  majority  may,  indeed,  have  the  physical  poicer,  but 
it  can  have  no  morid  right,  to  overturn  it.  Now,  we  have  the  authority  of  the  vene- 
rable gentleman  from  Loudoun,  (Mr.  Monroe)  that  under  our  present  Govern- 
ment, in  tlie  course  of  fifty-four  years,  there  has  been  no  wrong,  no  oppression — 
Again  :  the  sentence  which  the  gentlemen  overlooked,  distinctly  affirms  the  great 
principle  for  which  we  are  so  earnestly  contending,  that  it  behoves  men  engaged  in 
framing  a  Government,  to  establish  a  just  and  wise  Government — not  a  Government 
founded  on  theoretical  principles,  and  squared  according  to  the  exact  model  of  the 
natural  rights  of  man,  which,  being  necessarily  the  same  in  all  societies  of  mankind, 
would,  if  followed,  eventuate  every  where  in  the  same  form  of  civil  polity — but  a 
just  and  wise  Government,  adapted  to  the  peculiar  circumstances  of  the  people  for 
whom  it  is  intended.  No  Government  can  be  just,  or  wise,  or  safe,  which,  either 
wholly  or  in  any  material  degree,  gives  one  portion  of  the  people  the  principal  power 
of  taxation,  and  imposes  on  the  other,  the  principal  duty  of  contribution — no  Govern- 
ment can  produce  the  greatest  degree  of  happiness  and  safety,  or  fail  to  destroy  them, 
which  does  not  provide  the  most  jealous  security  for  property,  which  does  not  wed' 
power  to  pro])erty,  which  disclaims,  in  the  first  principle  of  its  organization,  all  re- 
gard to  property.  No  Government  can  be  just,  or,  wise,  or  safe  for  Virginia,  which 
shall  place  the  property  of  the  East  in  the  power  and  at  the  disposal  of  the  West. 
Whenever  they  shall  take  away  the  little  earnings  of  my  labour,  or  any  part  of  them 
— whene  vex  they  shall  seize  the  bread  I  earn  for  my  children — for  their  own  local  pur- 
poses— against  my  consent,  and  the  consent  of  all  those  who  represent  my  interests — 
and  I  shall  be  bound  to  submit  to  such  exaction,  without  means  of  redress;  I  shall  be 
obliged  to  them,  sincerely  obliged  to  them,  to  take  away  my  life  too;  I  shall  not  desire 
to  survive  an  hour.  To  return  to  the  sentence  in  the  Bill  of  Rights,  which  the  gen- 
tlemen from  Frederick  overlooked;  it  was  only  by  that  omission,  that  they  made 
George  Mason's  Bill  of  Rights  pronounce  sentence  of  condemnation  upon  George 
Mason's  Constitution  ;  condemned  him  out  of  his  own  mouth,  of  violating  those 
sacred  rights  of  man  which  he  acknowledged  and  declared.  So  it  happened  to  Za- 
dig — I  allude  to  Voltaire's  tale — a  fragment  of  paper  was  found,  containing  these 
verses  in  his  hand-writing — 

.    ■         .  .  .  By  crimes  of  deepest  dye, 

••  . ,  '  He's  of  the  throne  possessed,, 

,  '  'Gainst  Peace  and  Liberty, 

,  )        ■  An  enemy  professed.  ^ 

And  these  lines  were  construed  into  a  seditious  and  traitorous  libel  against  the  reign- 
ing Prince  ;  and  the  unhappy  author  was  doomed  to  death.  But,  as  they  were  lead- 
ing him  to  execution,  a  parrot  flew  to  the  place,  with  another  fragment  which  saved 
his  life  ;  for  it  exactly  fitted  the  former,  and  on  it  were  written  other  words,  which 
entirely  changed  the  complexion  of  the  supposed  libel.    The  whole  read  thus — 

By  crimes  of  deepest  dye,  -we've  seen  the  earth  made  hell ; 
He's  of  the  throne  possessed,  who  all  tlieir  power  can  quell — 
'Gainst  peace  and  liberty,  love  only  wages  war — 
An  enemy  professed — and  one  we  well  may  fear.* 

The  examples  of  our  sister  States,  who  are  supposed  to  have  framed  their  Govern- 
ments upon  the  principle  recommended  by  the  Legislative  Committee,  has  been  as 
earnestly  pressed  upon  vts,  as  if  it  were  true,  that  they  have  in  fact  set  us  any  such  ex- 
amples, and  certain,  that  what  is  suitable  to  their  condition  is  also  suitible  to  ours.  Of 
the  six  New  England  States,  it  will  be  found,  on  an  examination  of  their  institutions, 
that  not  one  of  them  has  in  fact  adopted  any  such  principle ;  which  is  remarkable 
enough,  considering  their  dense  and  homogenious  population,  their  com.paratively 
small  territory,  and  the  consequent  small  diversity  of  their  interests.  The  neto  Con- 
stitution of  New  York  (whether  it  be  an  amended  (me  or  no,  I  shall  not  presume  to- say) 
professes  to  adopt  the  principle  now  recommended  to  us,  and  yet  departs  from  it,  in 
allowing  each  county,  no  matter  how  few  its  population,  at  least  one  vote;  a  very  ma- 
terial modification:  and,  supposing  the  city  of  New  York  shall  continue  to  grow  for  a 
few  years  longer,  as  it  has  done  for  a  few  years  past,  if  tlie  State  of  New  York  do  not 

*  The  English  lines  are  doggrel,  nor  do  we  know  where  Mr.  Leigh  found  the  translation.  The  origi- 
nal French  verses  are  quite  pretty  : 

Par  les  plus  grand  forfaits  j'ai  vu  troubler  la  terre  j 
Sur  la  trone  aftermi  le  roi  sait  tout  dompter — 
Dans  la  publique  paix  I'amour  seul  fait  la  guerre  j 
C'est  le  seul  ennemi  qui  soit  a  redoubter. 


DEBATES  OP  THE  CONVENTION. 


163 


rue  the  day  it  gave  the  City  such  excess  of  representation,  out  of  mere  respect  to 
theoretical,  and  contempt  of  practical  equality,  I  shall  abandon  all  pretensions  to  poli- 
tical foresight.  The  Constitution  of  New  Jersey  gives  each  county  an  equal  repre- 
E-entation,  so  does  that  of  Delaware.  In  Pennsylvania,  the  representation  is  appor- 
tioned according  to  the  taxable  inhabitants :  and  every  county  is  allowed  at  least  one. 
When  the  Constitutions  of  the  North  Western  States  were  formed,  their  population 
was  small,  and  all  free,  and  there  was  no  diversity  of  interests  :  and  when  those  of  the 
South  Western  States  were  formed,  their  population  was  small  too,  and  they  were  all 
planters  and  slave-holders,  so  that  they  had  no  diversity  of  interests,  which  it  was  ne- 
cessary to  balance,  in  order  to  secure.  N^)rtii  Carolina  and  Maryland  are  in  a  simi- 
lar situation  with  us — and  tlie  Constitutions  of  both  give  to  each  county  an  equal  re- 
presentation. Suppose  Maryland  should  be  seduced,  instead  of  being  warned  and 
deterred,  by  our  example,  and  should  be  unwise  enough  to  call  a  Convention  to 
amend  her  Constitution,  and  to  equalize  her  representation:  does  any  man  suppose 
her  people  will  be  weak  enough,  in  deference  to  the  rights  of  man,  to  give  Baltimore 
a  representation  in  proportion  to  its  free  white  population,  and  thus,  in  elfect,  to  con- 
stitute that  city  mistress  of  the  State Baltimore  wouM  have  one-fifth  of  the  whole 
representation  j  and,  acting  in  mass,  would  almost  invariably  prevail  over  the  rest, 
since  the  rest  would  be  weakened  b}'  division.  South  Carolina,  finding  herself  in 
circumstances  similar  to  ours,  though  the  diversity  of  interests  is  by  no  means  so 
great  there  as  here,  has  adopted  that  very  compound  basis  of  population  and  taxation, 
which  the  amendment  of  my  friend  from  Culpeper  proposes;  and  Georgia  has  adopt- 
ed the  federal  number,  in  apportioning  her  representation,  which  comes  very  nearly 
to  the  same  tiling.  It  is  wise  to  respect  the  institutions  of  our  sister  States — to  obtain 
light,  to  borrow  wisdom,  to  take  warning,  from  any  quarter — but,  surely,  to  follow^  tlie 
examples  of  those,  whose  situation  is  dilferent  from  ours,  and  \^  ho  v/ere  under  no  ne- 
cessity to  exercise  any  jealousy  of  numbers  for  the  safeguard  of  property-  ;  and  to 
neglect  the  example  of  those,  Avhose  situation  is  similar  to  ours,  and  who  yet  had  less 
occasion  than  we  have,  to  pro^ade  such  security  for  the  interest  of  property — tliia 
would  not  be  to  profit  by  the  examples  of  other  States,  but  to  despise  them. 

The  gentleman  from  Norfolk  (Mr.  Taylor)  and  tlie  gentleman  from  Augusta  (Mr. 
Baldwin)  have  told  us,  that,  disguise  the  principle  of  the  compound  basis  of  wliite  po- 
pulation and  taxation,  as  we  may,  or  as  we  can,  it  is  giving  political  power  to  the  few 
over  the  many — to  the  wealthy  few — to  property  over  persons — and  it  is  aristocracy. 
Now,  I  pray  you,  Sir,  turn  your  attention  to  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States, 
which  apportions  representation,  and  direct  taxation  too,  to  numbers,  ascertained  by 
adding  to  the  free  population,  three-fitUis  of  the  slaves.  And  I  ask  those  gentlemen 
to  tell  me,  whether  the}"  are  or  are  not  zealous,  devoted  admirers,  friends  and  suppor- 
ters of  the  Federal  Constitution.^  If  they  answer  no.  I  have  nothing  more  to  say. 
If  they  answer  yes — as  I  think  they  will  and  rnust — do  they  consider  tliat  principle  in 
the  Federal  Constitution,  aristocracy  in  disguise  ?  .Do  they  approve  aristocracy  in  the 
Federal  Constitution,  and  only  abhor  and  abominate  it  in  the  State  Government.'  Is 
it  anti-republican  in  the  one,  to  give  property  a  representation  for  its  security,  and 
perfectly  republican  to  give  propert}-  the  same  kind  of  security  in  the  other.'  What 
reason  can  ingenuity  assign  for  the  adoption  of  such  a  principle  in  either,  which  ia 
not  equally  applicable  to  botli  t  Sir,  to  charge  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from 
Culpeper  with  aristocracy ,  is  out  of  the  question — the  amendment  only  proposes  to 
provide  effectual  profecf/o7i  for  the  interest  of  property,  by  placing  the  care  of  tliem  in 
the  hands  of  those  to  whom  tliey  belong,  nor  are  its  friends  to  be  deterred  from  de- 
manding a  just  security  for  it,  such  as  the  Federal  Constitution  intended  to  provide, 
by  any  anathemas  against  the  principle  as  aristocratical. 

Mr.  Taylor  of  Norfolk,  rose  to  explain.  He  said  he  had  never  uttered  any  anathe- 
ma against  any  gentleman.  He  never  entertained  the  sentiment,  and  for  that  reason 
could  not  express  it.  He  begged  leave  to  state  that  he  had  offered  his  sentiments  to 
the  committee  on  every  occasion,  as  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  said  he  would 
do.  He  would  soften  nothing — he  would  mitigate  nothing,  but  would  express  the 
sincere  conviction  of  his  heart,  and  would  conceal  nothing  he  had  said.  He  would 
not  attribute  improper  motives  to  any  gentleman,  but  he  had  to  repeat,  that  the  prin- 
ciples which  the  gentleman  sought,  honestly,  no  doubt,  to  introduce,  were  in  his  judg- 
ment inimical  to  all  he  was  taught  to  respect — to  all  our  free  and  equal  institutions — = 
and  at  any  hazard  

Mr.  Leigh.    Is  it  merely  an  explanation  tlie  gentleman  is  going  to  offer 

Mr.  Taylor.     Yes  :  he  disclaimed  any  intention  of  imputing  improper  motives  to 
gentlemen. 

Mr.  Leigh.  I  understood  the  gentleman  correctly.  He  imputed  aristocracy  to  the 
amendment  we  are  insisting  on.  not  to  the  friends  of  the  amendment.  I  did  not  im- 
derstand  him  to  impeach  our  motives  ;  and  I  assure  him  I  do  not  question  Ms,  or  those 
of  any  other  gentleman.  Tliis  is  a  vital  question  ;  and  we  must  aUbe  indulged  witlj 
perfect  freedom  i:n  debate. 


164 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Sir,  we  the  people  of  the  East  demand  of  our  fellow-citizens  of  the  West,  the^same 
principle  of  representation  for  the  security  of  our  property,  which  the  Southern  States 
demanded  of  the  Northern,  and  these  conceded,  in  framing  the  Federal  Government. 
Look  to  the  experience  of  the  Federal  Government;  and  it  will  be  found,  that  the 
representation  apportioned  to  the  Southern  States  has  not  been  more  than  adequate 
to  the  security  of  their  interests — no,  not  adequate.  A  gigantic  system  of  protecting 
duties  is  proposed — the  Southern  States  in  vain  exclaim  against  its  partial  and  op- 
pressive operation — in  vain  deprecate,  remonstrate,  struggle — a  bare  majority  hesitates 
not  to  impose  the  tariff.  Of  the  constitutionality  of  that  system  of  measures — of  its 
policy  considered  by  itself,  with  a  view  to  political  economy- — I  shall  give  no  opinion 
now  :  all  1  have  to  say,  is,  that  in  a  Government  constituted  like  ours,  it  never  can  be 
wise  to  persist  in  any  system  of  measures,  against  which  a  large  portion  of  the  nation, 
though  it  be  a  minority,  separated  from  the  rest  by  geographical  and  political  divisions, 
and  by  political  interests  too,  so  far  as  the  proposed  measures  are  concerned,  raises  its 
united  voice.  In  my  poor  opinion,  every  commercial  operation  of  the  Federal  Gov- 
ernment, since  I  attained  to  manhood,  has  been  detrimental  to  the  Southern,  Atlantic, 
slave-holding,  planting  States.  In  1800,  we  had  a  great  West  India  and  a  flourishing 
European  trade — We  imported  for  ourselves,  and  for  a  good  part  of  iNorth  Carolina, 
perhaps  of  Tennessee — where  is  all  that  trade  now.?  annihilated. — Where  is  the  capi- 
tal which  carried  it  on gone.  Sir,  we  have  not  an  adequate  representation  in  the 
Federal  Government.  And  as  to  that  which  we  have,  I  have  heard  one  gentleman 
doubt  the  wisdom  and  justice  of  the  principle  which  gave  it  to  us — the  gentleman 
from  Albemarle.  [Mr.  Gordon  explained — he  thought  he  had  said,  that  wise  states- 
men might  doubt  the  wisdom  of  that  principle  of  representation.]  If  the  gentleman 
does  not  doubt  himself,  I  have  only  to  ask  his  attention  to  another  consideration.  Sup- 
pose the  Legislature  of  this  State  reformed  and  based  upon  white  population ;  the 
time  comes  for  making  a  new  apportionment  of  our  representation  in  Congress  j  the 
West  insists,  that  that  too  shall  be  apportioned  according  to  white  population ;  the 
Loudoun  district  joins  the  West,  as  it  does  now;  and  Albemarle,  in  its  zeal  for  the 
rights  of  man,  forgets  her  old  love  and  abandons  State  Rights — then  shall  we  see 
Virginia,  like  Kentucky,  hitched  to  the  car  of  the  Federal  Government,  for  Internal 
Improvement  and  protecting  duties. 

Mr.  Leigh,  being  fatigued,  here  gave  the  floor  to  Mr.  Powell. 

On  the  motion  of  Mr.  Powell,  who  expressed  a  wish  that  tlse  Committee  would 
rise,  in  order  to  allow  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  another  day  to  conclude  his  re- 
marks, the  Committee  rose  and  reported  progress. 

The  Convention  then  adjourned  till  to-morrow  at  11  o'clock. 


WEDNESDAY,  November  4,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  eleven  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  tlie  Right 
Rev.  Bishop  Moore  of  the  Protestant  Episcopal  Church. 

The.  House  having  again  resolved  itself  into  a  Committee  of  the;  Whole,  Mr. 
Stanard  in  the  Chair,  and  the  question  still  being  on  the  report  of  the  Legislative 
Committee,  as  proposed  to  be  amended  by  Mr.  Green,  by  substituting  for  white  po- 
pulation exclusively,  white  population  and  taxation  combined, 

Mr.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  resumed. — Mr.  Chairman,  I  yesterday  considered  the 
examples  of  our  sister  States,  and  of  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  so  far  as. 
they  have  any  bearing  on  the  proposition  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  and  on  the 
amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  with  a  view  to  shew,  that  representa- 
tion based  on  taxation  and  population  combined, — and  representation  of  persons  and 
property,  and  of  slaves  as  one  or  the  other — were  not,  in  the  general  sense  of  Ame- 
rica, contrary  to  the  principles  of  Republican  Government,  or  at  all  obnoxious  to  the 
imputation  of  aristocracy.  Gentlemen  may  think  it  strange,  that  I  should  take  any 
pains  to  clear  our  proposition  of  that  imputation.  But,  I  have  lived  long  enough  to 
know,  that  words  are  things,  and  potent  things  too— and  that  if  an  odious  epithet  can 
be  fixed  on  any  proposition  or  measure,  that  will  suffice  to  enlist  thousands  against 
it,  and  in  the  end,  generally,  to  damn  it  forever.  In  truth,  the  question  we  are  con- 
sidering, is  a  question  of  State  policy,  unaffected  by  any  theories,  democratic,  repub- 
lican, or  aristocratic — it  is  simply  this  :  which  scheme  of  representation  otight  we  to 
adopt  for  the  House  of  Delegates — that  reported  by  the  Legislative  Committee,  or 
that  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper  .''  Which  is  the  more  politic,  wise  and 
just,  having  regard  to  all  circumstances,  and  to  the  rights  and  interests  of  each  and 
every  part  of  the  Commonwealth 

The  Committee  must  pardon  me,  if  I  recur,  for  a  brief  space,  to  that  provision  of 
the  Federal  Constitution,  commonly  called  the  Federal  number.    Its  history  is  some-^ 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTIOX, 


165 


what  curious.  Originally,  under  the  articles  of  confederation,  each  State  was  to  coTi" 
tribute  quotas  in  proportion  to  the  assessed  value  of  its  landed  property  ;  but  that 
principle  beino-  deemed  inconvenient  in  practice,  it  was  thought  best  to  substitute  a 
principle  of  contribution,  apportioned  to  the  population  of  the  several  States.  In  the 
discussion  of  this  proposition— part  of  the  debate  has  recently  been  pubhshed — the 
Northern  States  insisted,  that  slaves  were  ■persons,  and  that  we  ought  to  contribute  in 
proportion  to  our  whole  population,  bond  and  free  ;  and  the  Southern  States  contended, 
that  they  were  property,  and  ought  not  to  be  taken  into  the  estimate  of  population,  in 
setthng  the  rate  of  contribution  ;  each  party  maintaining  that  side  of  the  question,  on 
which,  in  that  aspect  of  it,  their  interests  lay.  No  wonder  I  all  men  do  so — always 
have  done, — and  ever  wiU  do  so.  It  was  not  till  1783,  that  Congress  agreed  to  pro- 
pose an  amendment,  by  which  the  States  were  to  contribute  in  proportion  to  their 
population,  to  be  ascertained  by  adding  to  their  free  citizens  three-fifths  of  their 
slaves.  Whether  or  no  this  amendment  was  ratified  by  the  States,  I  do  not  certainly 
know  )  but  this  was  the  origin  of  the  Federal  number.  I  have  had  recourse  in  vain, 
to  every  source  of  information  accessible  to  me.  to  ascertain  how^  that  precise  propor- 
tion of  the  slaves,  three-ffihs,  came  to  be  adopted — what  mode  or  principle  of  esti- 
mate led  to  it.  Some  reason' for  it,  there  must  have  been — and  it  is  remarkable,  that 
if  the  Federal  number  be  taken  as  the  basis  of  representation,  any  where  I  believe, 
certainly  in  Virginia,  it  will  give  a  result  pretty  nearly  the  same  as  the  combined  basis 
of  white  population  and  taxation — in  Virginia,  tire  difference,  in  a  House  of  one 
hundred  and  twenty,  would  not  be  more  thari  one  delegate,  to  an}^  section  (speaking 
in  modish  phrase)  or  division  of  the  State,  divide  it  as  you  will,  by  lines  East  and 
West,  or  North  and  South.  The  Federal  Convention  of  1787  had,  for  the  first  time, 
to  arrange  a  representation  of  the  people  in  Congress.  The  Statesmen  of  the  North 
and  South  now,  doubtless,  changed  sides  with  their  interests:  in  the  view  of  the 
former  J  slaves  were  now  property ;  in  the  view  of  the  latter,  they  were  persons. 
However,  they  made  a  compromise,  and  agreed  on  the  same  Federal  number  which 
had  been  proposed  in  1783. 

It  is  contended  that  there  is  no  connexion  between  representation  and  taxation 
that  representation  can  only  be  of  persons  ;  that  property  has  no  claim  to  representa- 
tion ;  that  slaves  are  mere  property,  for  which,  therefore,  we  are  entitled  to  no  re- 
presentation— and  it  has  been  gravely  said,  that  the  provision  of  the  Federal  nuviber- 
iii  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States  does  not  in  fact,  and  was  not  intended  hy 
its  founders  to  oppugn  any  of  these  propositions.  On  what  ground,  then,  do  gentle- 
men imagine,  that  the  basis  of  the  Federal  number  was  adopted  They  say,  it  was 
a  compromise.  And  how  far  does  that  carry  them  in  the  argument  ?  The  question 
"stni  recurs,  what  was  the  ground  of  compromise  ?  and  what  were  the  interests  com- 
promised .''  The  Constitution  provides  that  representation  and  direct  taxation  sheill 
both  be  apportioned  to  the  same  ratio,  the  Federal  number;  that  is,  that  representa- 
tion and  taxation  shall  be  proportioned  each  to  the  other.  And,  Sir,  I  shall  affirm,, 
and  that  without  fear  of  contradiction  after  the  proofs  I  shall  adduce,  that  tliis  provi- 
sioii  was  adopted  and  defended  on  the  grounds,  that  there  ought  to  be  the  same  riile 
for  representation  as  for  contribution^ — tliat  slaves  are  persons  as  well  as  property — 
and  that  whether  persons  or  propert}^,  or  of  a  mixed  character  partaking  of  both,  the . 
South  was  entitled  to  representation  for  them. 

Sir,  I  refer  the  Committee  to  the  54th  number  of  The  Federahst  (I  know  not  who 
was  the  author  of  it*)  in  which  this  provision  of  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States 
is  discussed,  and  in  which  after  maintaining  that  the  Southern  States  rightly  claimed 
a  representation  for  their  slaves  as  persons,  the  author  proceeds — "  It  is  agreed  on  all 
sides,  ^  that  numbers,'  (meaning  gross  numbers,  bond  and  free)  are  the  best  scale  of 
wealth,  as  they  are  the  only  proper  scale  of  representation. — Would  the  Convention 
have  been  impartial  or  consistent,  if  they  had  rejected  the  slaves  from  the  list  of  in- 
habitants when  the  shares  of  representation  were  to  be  calculated,  and  inserted  them 
on  the  lists  when  the  tariff  of  contributions  was  to  be  adjusted.'  CouJd  it  be  reason- 
ably expected,  that  the  Southern  States  would  concur  in  a  system,  which  considered 
their  slaves  in  some  degree  as  men  when  burdens  were  to  be  imposed,  but  refused  to 
consider  them  in  the  same  light  when  advantages  were  to  be  conferred." — In  the  se- 
quel of  the  same  letter,  it  is  said:  '-After  all,  may  not  another  ground  be  taken,  on 
which  this  article  of  the  Constitution  may  admit  of  a  still  more  ready  defence  ?  We 
have  liitherto  proceeded  on  the  idea,  that  representation  related  to  persons  only,  and 
not  at  all  to  property.  But  is  this  a  just  idea.-*  Government  is  instituted,  not  less  for 
the  protection  of  the  property,  than  of  the  persons,  of  individuals.  The  one,  there- 
fore, as  well  as  the  other,  may  be  considered  as  represented  by  those  who  are  charged 
with  the  Government.  Upon  this  principle  it  is,  that,  in  several  of  the  States,  and 
particularly  in  the  State  of  New-York,  one  branch  of  the  Government  is  intended 
more  especially  to  be  the  guardian  of  property,  and  is  accordingly  elected  by  that  part 

*  Jlr.  3Iadison  afterw-ards  avowed  in  his  place,  tkat  he  was. 


166 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


of  society,  which  is  most  interested  in  this  object  of  Government.  In  the  Federal 
Constitution,  this  pohcy  does  not  prevail.  The  rights  of  property  are  committed  to 
the  same  hands  with  the  personal  rights.  Soxne  attention  therefore,  ought  to  be  paid 
to  property  in  the  choice  of  those  hands." 

Again,  Sir — I  presume  it  will  be  agreed,  that  no  man  better  understood  the  reasons 
on  which  the  various  provisions  of  the  Federal  Constitution  were  grounded,  than  Gene- 
ral Hamilton.    Allow  me,  then,  to  refer  the  Committee  to  what  he  said,  in  the  Con- 
vention of  New- York  which  ratified  the  Constitution,  on  the  subject  of  this  federal 
number — "  The  first  thing  objected  to  (said  he)  is  that  clause  which  allows  a  represen- 
tation for  three-fiflhs  of  the  negToes. — Much  has  been  said  of  the  impropriety  of  re- 
presenting men  who  have  no  will  of  their  own.    Whether  this  be  reasoning  or  decla- 
mation, I  will  not  presume  to  say.    It  is  the  unfortunate  situation  of  the  Southern 
States,  to  have  a  great  part  of  their  population,  as  well  as  property,  in  blacks.  The 
regulation  complained  of  was  one  result  of  the  spirit  of  accommodation  which  govern- 
ed the  Convention;  and  without  this  indulgence  no  union  could  possibly  have  been 
formed.    But,  Sir,  considering  some  peculiar  advantages  we  derive  from  them,  it  is 
entirely  just  that  they  should  be  gratified.    The  Southern  States  possess  certain  sta- 
ples, tobacco,  rice,  indigo,  &c.  which  must  be  capital  objects  in  treaties  of  commerce 
with  foreign  nations,  and  the  advantage  which  they  necessarily  procure  in  these 
treaties,  will  be  felt  throughout  all  the  States.    But  the  justice  of  this  plan  will  ap- 
pear in  another  view — The  best  writers  on  Government  have  held,  that  representation 
slwuld  be  compounded  of  persons  and  property. — This  rule  has  been  adopted  as  far  as  it 
could  be  in  New- York. — It  will,  however,  by  no  means  be  admitted,  that  slaves  are 
considered  altogether  as  property.    They  are  men,  though  degraded  to  the  condition 
of  slavery.    They  are  persons  known  to  the  municipal  laws  of  the  States  which  they 
inhabit,  as  well  as  to  the  laws  of  nature.    But  representation  and  taxation  go  together  ; 
and  one  uniform  ride  ought  to  apply  to  both.    Would  it  be  just  to  compute  slaves 
in  the  assessment  of  taxes,  and  discard  them  from  the  estimate  in  the  apportionment 
of  representatives.'*    Would  it  be  just  to  impose  a  singular  burden,  without  confer- 
ring some  adequate  advantage.? — Another  circumstance  ought  to  be  considered.  The 
rule  we  have  been  speaking  of,  is  a  general  rule,  and  applies  to  all  the  States.  Now, 
you  have  a  great  number  of  j^eople  in  your  State,  which  are  not  represented  at  all,  and 
nave  no  voice  in  your  Government:  these  will  be  included  in  the  enumeration^ — not 
two-fifths — nor  three-fifths — but  the  whole.    This  proves,  that  the  advantages  of  the 
plan  are  not  confined  to  the  Southern  States,  but  extend  to  every  part  of  the  Union." 
— You  see,  Sir,  that  General  Hamilton  thought,  that  the  Southern  States  had  as  just 
a  claim  to  representation  for  their  slave  labour,  as  the  Northern  States  for  their  free 
white  labour — and  he  said  this  to  the  people  of  New- York,  almost  all  of  whose  day- 
labourers  were  free  white  men. 

Mr.  Chairman,  we  have  been  told  by  several  gentlemen,  and  particularly  by  the 
gentleman  from  Brooke,  (Mr.  Doddridge,)  that  if  the  amendment  proposing  the  com- 
pound basis  of  white  population  and  taxation  prevail,  which  he  regards  as  a  simple 
claim  for  a  representation  of  our  slaves,  the  effect  will  be,  to  make  the  people  of  the 
West  the  slaves  of  the  people  of  the  East,  to  the  end  of  time.    If  this  was  intended 
to  excite  the  angry  feelings  of  the  West,  it  was  surely  well  adapted  to  its  purpose. 
But,  if  it  was  meant  for  argument,  it  exhibited  a  strange  forgetfulness  of  the  scheme  re- 
ported by  the  Legislative  Committee  itself,  and  that  in  a  particular,  concerning  which, 
there  has  been  very  little,  if  any  diversity  of  opinion.    The  argument  is  founded,  first, 
on  the  fact,  that,  at  this  time,  the  cis-montane  country  not  only  pays  a  far  greater 
amount  of  revenue,  but  contains  also  the  majority  of  white  population,  which,  com- 
bined, must  give  us  a  majority  of  Delegates;  and  then,  on  the  supposition,  that  the  ap- 
portionment of  the  representation  now  to  be  made,  is  to  be  fixed  and  unchangeable. 
And  yet,  the  same  gentleman  tells  us,  he  has  no  doubt,  that  in  thirty  years,  the  majo- 
rity of  white  population  will  be  found  on  the  West  side  of  the  Alleghany,  let  alone 
the  Valley — and  the  Auditor's  estimate  informs  us,  that  the  cis-montane  white  popu- 
lation, which  in  1820  was  greater  than  that  on  the  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge  by  94,000, 
exceeds  it  now  by  only  43,000 — and  the  gentleman  must  know,  that  it  is  a  part  of 
every  scheme  that  has  been  suggested,  and  part  of  the  report  of  the  Legislative  Com- 
mittee, that  there  shall  be  new  enumerations  of  the  people,  and  new  assessments  of 
taxable  property,  and  new  apportionments  of  the  representation,  in  1835,  and  again 
in  1845,  and  afterwards  once  in  every  twenty  years  at  least. — Now,  as  the  white  popu- 
lation increases  in  the  West  in  a  much  greater  ratio  than  in  the  East,  the  proportion 
of  Western  representation  will  increase  in  virtue  of  that  element  of  tlie  compound  ba- 
sis; and,  as  their  population  increases,  their  lands  must  be  enhanced  in  value,  all  their 
taxable  property  must  be  augmented,  and  the  revenue  they  pay  into  the  Treasury 
must  also  increase,  and  they  will  gain  a  greater  share  of  the  representation  in  virtue 
of  that  element  of  the  compound  basis  also— unless,  indeed,  it  be  supposed  that,  though 
their  population  increase  and  their  wealth  too,  ever  so  much,  they  ought  never  to  con- 
tribute a  greater  proportional  amount  than  they  now  do,  and  that  the  taxation  on  them 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


167 


©uo-ht  to  be  reduced,  from  time  to  time,  so  as  to  keep  their  contribtations  at  the  present 
reduced  amount.  The  compound  ratio,  therefore,  will  work  gradually,  to  augment 
their  share  of  representation,  both  "vrays:  and,  in  due  time,  to  give  them  a  greater 
share  of  it  than  us.  I  have  not  calculated  the  time  which  it  will  take,  under  the  ope- 
ration of  the  compound  ratio,  to  transfer  the  balance  of  power  to  the  West,  nor  am  I 
very  competent  to  the  task;  but  if  the  gentleman  from  Brooke  will  ascertain  the  date 
when  the  majority  of  white  population  will  be  found  on  the  West  side  of  the  Allegha- 
ny, I  can  venture  to  assure  iiimthat  the  tramontane  country,  upon  our  own  plan,  will, 
before  that  time  comes,  have  the  majority  in  the  House  of  Delegates — and  then.  Sir, 
I  am  content  that  they  shall  have  it.  They  will  acquire  it  gradually,  and  as  they  ac- 
quire^ learn  to  use  it.  with  justice  axid  moderation.  They  will  not  acquire  it.  till  they 
learn  to  feel  the  weight  of  the  crown  they  are  destined  to  bear — and  that  feeling  will 
chasten  their  love  of  power.  They  will  not  acquire  it,  till  they  shall  contribute  out 
of  their  pockets,  under  any  scheme  of  uniform  taxation,  such  a  proportion  of  the  re- 
venue, as  will  o^ive  them  a  substantial  community  of  interest  with  us  in  the  imposition 
of  taxes,  if  not'in  the  appropriation  of  revenue.  They  can  only  acquire  it,  by  giving 
us  that  bond  with  surety,  which  my  friend  from  Fauquier  pir.  Scott)  demanded — we 
shall  have  a  security  in  their  self-love,  in  their  own  interest,  that  they  will  not  abuse 
their  pov,-er.  Sir.  I  have  no  unreasonable  jealousy  or  distrust  of  them.  Indeed,  I 
have  always  known,  that  upon  the  principles  of  the  existing  Constitution,  the  balance 
of  power  would  in  time,  and  in  no  long  time,  be  transferred  to  the  West.  Why,  then^ 
I  shall  be  asked,  have  I  been  so  strenuous  a  defender  of  our  old  institutions?  Because, 
in  preserving'  ikem.  I  should  have  preserved  a  great  deal,  apart  from  this,  this  question 
of  the  balance  of  power,  which  I  dearly  prize — because  in  preserving  them,  I  should 
have  avoided  this  very  contest,  which,  terminate,  as  it  may,  is  a  sore  evil  in  itself—- 
because  I  should  have  preserved  that  sentiment  of  veneration  for  constituted  authori- 
ty, which  is  now  forever  lost,  which  gave  sufficient  moral  force  to  execute  the  laws, 
and  thus  dispensed  with  the  exertion  of  the  strong  arm  of  Government;  for  when- 
ever physical  force  becomes  necessary,  the  spirit  of  Republican  Government  must 
cease  to  direct  the  system,  and  even  the  empty  form  must  soon  perish.  And  now  let 
me  ask  the  gentlemen  of  the  West,  why  are  they  so  urgent  for  the  immediate  posses- 
sion of  power.'  for  this  sudden,  abrupt  transfer  of  it  to  their  hands  ?  when  they  sure- 
ly ought  to  know,, that  it  is  unpossible  for  us  to  make  the  transfer,  without  giving  with 
it  unlimited  dominion  over  our  property — without  giving  them  power  to  take  from  the 
poor  man  of  the  East  the  fruits  of  his  industry,  and  the  bread  from  the  mouths  of  his 
children.  It  is  that  rage  for  Internal  Improvement — for  wherever  I  see  that  passion, 
there  I  find  the  passion  for  reform,  and  thence  I  hear  those  scoffings  at  every  senti- 
ment of  respect  and  veneration  for  the  institutions  our  wise,  prudent  and  virtuous  an- 
cestors bequeathed  to  us. 

We  have  been  told.  Sir,  that  we  have  no  dangers  to  apprehend  from  an  immediate 
transfer  of  power  to  the  West  over  the  East — power  to  tax  our  property  according  to 
their  ideas  of  justice,  and  to  appropriate  the  revenue  we  are  to  pay,  according  to  their 
views  of  policy ;  that  we  have  ample  security  in  the  honesty  of  our  western  bre- 
thren :  that  we  are  mistaken  in  supposing,  that  self-lote  is  the  great  spring  of  human 
actions  ;  that  the  moral  sense  of  mankind  is  sufficient  to  resist  its  promptings,  and 
subdue  its  influence  ;  that  "self-love  and  social  are  the  same."  I  know,  that  there 
are  individual  men — few,  however — who,  upon  some  occasions — very  unfrequent — 
can  disobey  the  dictates  of  self-love,  and  disregard  their  own  interests,  at  the  call  of 
sympathy  for  other  individuals,  friendship,  affection  and  gratitude.  But,  in  the  his- 
tory of  the  human  kind,  of  all  nations  and  of  all  ages,  from  the  earhest  tradition  to 
our  own  times  and  country,  there  has  never  been  a  single  instance  of  any  society  of 
men,  of  men  acting  in  masses  great  or  small,  who  forgot  self-interest,  or  what  they 
supposed  to  be  so,  for  a  moment.  It  was  not  generosity,  which  prompted  France  to 
assist  us  in  our  revolutionary  struggle — it  was  self-love — mistaken  self-love,  in  mj 
opinion — ^but  stiU  sheer  self-love.  It  is  not  generosity,  which  has  excited  our  so  ear- 
nest wish  for  the  independence  of  the  South  American  States  of  Old  Spain — it  is  our 
self-love — the  desire  to  profit  by  her  trade — mistaken  self-love  again,  I  fear ;  for  we 
shall  probably  lose  by  their  rivalry  more  than  we  shall  gain  by  tlieir  custom.  It  is 
self-love  alone  that  recommends  the  system  of  protecting  duties — the  Americem  sys- 
tem— ^to  our  fellow-citizens  of  the  Northern  States ;  and  it  is  self-love  which  incites 
the  South  to  such  strenuous  opposition.  It  is  self-love,  which  now  divides  this  Con- 
vention, on  this  very  question. 

The  moral  sense  and  tlie  honesty  of  the  people  of  the  West !  I  pray  gentlemen  to 
Tinderstand  me — they  are  not  to  suspect  me  of  the  nonsense  and  folly  of  imputing  to 
them  any  peculiar  vice  of  disposition.  I  entertain  no  such  opinion  of  the  West  or  of 
the  North — if  I  did,  I  would  give  my  vote  for  separation  this  moment.  I  have  mark- 
ed the  gro^^-th  of  native  talent,  of  inteUectual  culture,  of  moral  worth,  in  the  West — 
I  have  watched  young  merit  there,  in  its  dawning,  in  its  rise  and  its  meridian — with 
hearty  good  will  and  sincere  delight ;  and  saying^this,  I  think  I  may  safely  vouch  any 


1G8 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


gentleman  of  the  West,  who  knows  me,  for  my  witness.  I  admit,  that  the  people  of 
the  West  are  as  honest  as  tiiose  of  the  East ;  and  I  would  refuse  them  no  confidence 
which  I  would  ask  them  to  repose  in  us.  And  then  T  tell  them,  plainly,  that,  in Iny 
opinion,  they,  nor  any  body  of  men  on  earth,  are  honest  enough  to  be  entrusted  with 
dominion  over  the  property  of  others,  uncontrolled  by  their  own  community  of  in- 
terest in  that  property,  and  in  the  disposition  of  it.  This  is  the  very  dominion,  which 
the  gentlemen  of  the  West  are  so  importunately  asking  us  to  concede  to  them.  Yes, 
Sir,  they  ask  us  to  put  our  all  into  common  stock  with  tliem,  and  then  confide  in  the 
unerring  dictates  of  their  moral  sense,  that  the}^  will  carve  no  unjust  share  for  them- 
selves— they  ask  us  to  put  three  dollars  of  our  money  into  the  treasury,  for  every  dol- 
lar which  they  shall  contribute  of  their  own,  and  trust  them  to  make  a  just,  fair  and 
impartial  application  of  it  for  the  common  weal.  This  is  the  exact  state  of  the  case. 
The  man,  who,  in  private  life,  should  accede  to  such  a  proposal,  would  be  regarded 
as  a  simpleton — a  natural  fool — and  the  law  would  appoint  a  guardian  to  take  care  of 
his  f><;rson  and  estate.  Can  the  gentlemen  of  the  West  flatter  themselves,  that  their 
moral  sense  is,  so  strong,  that  it  will  always  be  proof  against  continual  temptation? 
"  Lead  us  not  into  temptation,  but  deliver  us  from  evil." — So  our  Saviour  taught  us  to 
pray — and,  in  my  sense  of  the  prayer,  the  delivery  from  evil  depends  on  the  exemption 
from  temptation. 

Sir,  I  fear  we  are  in  the  habit  of  counting  too  much  upon  the  purity  and  virtue  of 
our  society,  as  a  permanent  security  against  all  political  evils.  I  told  the  committee 
yesterday,  that  I  intended  to  open  my  whole  mind  without  reserve — This  is  the  last 
scene  of  my  political  life  ;  before  I  came  here  I  weeded  all  the  hopes  of  ambition 
from  my  heart ;  and  I  now  declare  my  conscientious  belief,  unpopular  as  the  avowal 
of  it  may  be,  that  from  the  beginning  of  time,  never  any  nation  made  a  more  rapid 
progress  in  corruption,  than  have  these  United  States  during  the  last  quarter  of  a 
century.  I  beg  leave  to  mention  a  few  the  most  obvious  of  many  symptoms.  Even  in 
this  Good  Old  Dominion,  for  one  place-hunter  that  was  to  be  seen  when  I  first  grew 
up  to  manhood,  there  are  ten  now — Yes,  the  number  is  tenfold  at  the  least.  They 
swarm  in  the  country  and  in  the  city — they  infest  our  public  places — they  invade  our" 
privacy,  and  disturb  the  quiet  of  their  industrious  neighbours  Vvith  their  solicitations. 
They  are  themselves  marketable  commodities  ;  they  put  up  their  principles,  their 
opinions,  their  votes,  at  auction  to  the  highest  bidder,  setting  the  highest  value  upon 
their  services,  but  willing  to  take  any  price  they  can  get.  Men,  hardly  fit  for  a  clerk- 
ship, aspire  to  embassies;  and  men,  who  aspire  to  embassies,  will  descend  to  a  clerk- 
ship— Office  ! — office  and  emolument,  high  or  low.  State  or  Federal  ! — any  sort  of  of- 
fice, which  will  save  them  the  pain  of  earning  their  living  by  honest  industry.  We 
hear  a  great  deal  about  the  corruption  of  all  orders  of  men  in  Great  Britain — What  is 
it  Does  any  man  suppose,  that  when  Sir  Robert  Walpole  said,  that  every  man  has 
Ms  price,  he  was  talking  of  a  price  to  be  told  out  in  guineas  No — some  are  to  be 
purchased  with  honors— some  with  the  power  to  purchase  others — some  with  the 
emoluments  of  place.  The  case  is  exactly  the  same  here. — Go  to  the  ant,  thou 
sluggard  ;  study  her  ways,  and  be  wise."  There  is  a  little  white  ant  in  the  West  In- 
dies, the  pest  of  the  country— lay  the  smallest  lump  of  sugar  on  a  mahogany  table, 
and  in  fifteen  minutes,  there  will  be  hundreds  around  it — tread  upon  a  lizard  in  the 
evening,  and  the  next  morning  they  will  present  you  the  cleanest  and  most  perfect 
skeleton  imaginable.  So,  Sir,  the  greedy  expectants  of  office  are  continually  on  the 
look-out— let  a  poor  Postmaster  or  Collector  be  sick,  and  they  begin  to  collect  their 
volume  of  recommendations — let  him  die,  and  before  his  remains  are  committed  to 
his  mother  earth,  the  whole  swarm  is  at  Washington. — Then,  Sir,  look  at  the  daily 
PresSj  which,  in  this  country,  is  the  true  exemplar  vitoe  morumque.  Why  is  it,  that 
upon  all  political  questions — presidential  election,  or  what  not — ^the  whole  argument 
turns  on  the  single  point,  which  side  will  get  the  majority  ^  because  that  is  the  most 
effectual  argument  to  carry  the  majority  ;  for,  tlie  party  that  shall  prevail,  is  to  have 
the  disposal  of  honors,  and  offices,  and  emoluments,  and  partizans  are  to  be  excited  to 
exertion,  or  acquired,  only  by  the  hope  of  reward.  There  is  another  class  of  men, 
who  (I  think)  have  sprung  up  in  Virginia,  or  rather  began  to  be  distinguished  as  a 
separate  class,  within  the  last  fifteen  years.  They  do  not  regard  themselves  as  apart 
of  the  people — they  profess  themselves  the  people's  servants — the  people's  friends — the 
people's  men  ;  meaning  nothing  more,  in  plain  English,  than  that  they  are  the  men  for 
the  people's  money. — They  have  no  opinions  and  no  will  of  their  own — whatever  the 
people  think,  they  think — whatever  the  people  desire,  they  desire — whatever  the  peo- 
ple willf  ihej  are  content — and,  therefore,  whatever  of  honor  or  emolument  the  peo- 
ple have  to  bestow,  they  expect  to  receive  it  at  their  hands.  Sir,  I  am  one  of  the 
people;  and  I  have  noted  the  ways,  and  know  perfectly  how  to  appreciate  the  mo- 
tives and  the  merits,  of  these  our  kind  officious  friends  and  servants.  In  Monar- 
chies, the  King  is  the  fountain  of  honor  and  office  :  In  Republics,  the  people.  There 
are  courtiers  of  the  people  as  well  as  courtiers  of  Kings.  The  motives  of  both  are 
exactly  alike  ;  their  ends  the  same  3  their  conduct  \^  different  only  in  mode ;  and  it  is 


DEBATES    OF   THE   C  ON'VE  N'TION. 


169 


equally  true  of  the  courtiers  of  the  people,  as  of  the  courtiers  of  Kings,  that,  exactly 
in  proportion  to  the  contempt  they  entertain  in  their  hearts,  for  the  persons  to  -whom 
their  flitteries  are  addressed,  is  the  extravagance  of  their  adulation.  Sir.  the  last  hope 
of  the  Republic  rests  in  that  class — and,  thank  Heaven,  it  yet  constitutes  the  great  body 
of  the  people — who.  possessing  the  means  of  subsistence,  if  improved  by  honest  in- 
dustry, placed  above  the  temptation  of  poverty,  and  exempt  from  the  temptations  of 
prosperity,  never  so  much  as  dream  of  the  emoluments  of  office — the  honest,  hard- 
working yeomanry  of  this  country,  who  hitherto  have  fed,  cloathed,  protected,  and 
sustained  society.  But,  how  long  will  these  pillars  of  the  Republic  remain  stable  and 
erect,  under  the  mighty  weight,  with  a  Government,  the  first  principle  of  Vv-iiich  is, 
avowedly,  to  be  an  utter  disregard  of  the  interests  and  security  of  property.  • 

Gentlemen  who  support  the  proposition  of  the  Lecrislative  Committee,  aware  that 
our  apprehensions  of  danger  from  the  practical  operation  of  the  principle  are  real,  and 
seemingly  aware  too.  thatlhose  apprehensions  axe  not  wholly  destitute  of  foundation, 
have  proposed  to  us  a  guaranty  atrainst  any  abuse  of  the  power  of  taxation ;  a  pro- 
mise, so  solemn,  so  clear,  so  strong,  so  binding  on  the  conscience  of  the  reformed 
Legislature,  that  its  efficiency  cannot  be  doubted.  I  have  heard  of  such  a  guaranty, 
ever  since  this  question  was  "first  started.  It  has  been  my  misfortune.  Sir,  in  all  dis- 
cussions concerning  the  necessitv  of  reform,  and  the  merits  of  the  reforms  proposed  in 
our  ancient  institutions,  not  onlv  never  to  convince  the  reformers  on  any  one  point, 
but  hardly  ever  to  succeed  in  making  myself  intelligible  to  them,  though  I  take  al- 
ways the  utmost  pains  to  cloathe  my  thoughts  in  the  plainest  words  of  Anglo-Saxon 
root  that  I  can  find  ;  and  (upon  this  subject  of  guarantv,  especially)  I  have  ever  found 
great  difficulty  in  comprehending  their  meaning.  What  seems  to  them  clear  as  the 
noon-dav  sun,  has  been  to  m}-  eyes,  mist  and  tu-ilight,  and  sometimes  utter  darkness. 
Returning  from  Cumberland  last  spring,  whither  I  went  to  present  myself  to  the 
people  as  a  candidate  for  a  seat  in  this  body — I  found  at  nicrht,  in  the  lower  end  of 
Powhatan,  a  newspaper,  in  which  was  a  letter,  explaining  the  general  views  of  the 
writer,  on  the  questions  most  likely  to  engage  the  attention  of  this  Convention  ;  a 
gentleman,  whose  intelligence  and  virtue  I  have  ever  held  in  the  highest  respect  and 
esteem,  and  with  whom  1  have  been  always  willing  to  confer,  to  put  mind  to  mind 
fairly,  and  to  abide  the  result.  The  letter  sugo-ested  what  he  thought  a  sufficient  guar- 
aatv.  With  a  very  painful  exertion  of  the  little  eye-sight  that  remains  to  me — I 
wish  the  printer  would  look  to  the  mending  of  liis  types,  instead  of  mendinDr  the 
Constitution — I  succeeded  in  making  out  the  icords ;  but  then,  to  my  surprise,  I 
could  not  understand  the  meaning  of  them.  Well,  Sir,  the  first  reformer  I  met  with, 
after  my  return  to  this  town,  knowing  my  particular  anxiety  on  this  head,  asked  me, 
whether  I  would  not  be  satisfied  vnXh  such  a  guaranty  as  the  letter  I  had  read  in 
Powhatan,  proposed.  I  told  hira,  I  really  did  not  understand  it.  He  did  not  express 
in  icords,  but  he  looked,  a  strong  doubt  of  my  sincerity.  In  the  evening  of  the  same 
day,  I  fell  in  company  with  the  printer  ;.  who  asked  me,  generally,  what  I  thought  of 
the  letter  ;  and,  the  guaranty  being  uppermost  in  my  mind.  I  told  him  I  could  not 
understand  the  passaa;e  that  related  to  that  knotty  subject  ;.  and  that  it  reminded  me 
of  a  piece  of  humour  of  Swift  in  his  TaJe  of  a  Tub — He  states  some  misty,  unintel- 
hgible.  metaphysical  question,  upon  which,  he  says,  he  has  bestowed  much  reflection, 
and  having  with  infinite  pains  acquired  a  clear  conception  of  it,  he  shall  proceed  to 
lay  the  matter  open  to  his  readers  ;  and  then  follows  half  a  page  of  asterisks,  con- 
cfudino^ — And  this  I  take  to  be  a  clear  account  of  the  whole  matter."  Sir,'"  (said 
rav  friend,  the  printer.)  ••  I  dare  say  you  mean  that  for  jest  ;  but  it  is  literally  true, 
that  there  was  an  out  of  a  line  or  two  of  that  passage,  in  the  manuscript  copy  of  the 
letter,  which  was  furnished  for  the  press  and  printed."'  But.  Sir,  I  do  understand  the 
meaninor  of  the  guaranty  offered  us  by  the  gentleman  fi-om  Fairfax  (Mr.  Fitzhugh.) 
Its  meaning  is  very  plain — There  is,  indeed,  a  fatal  perspicacity  in  it,  which  leaves 
no  doubt  of  the  utter  futihty  of  the  security  it  proposes  to  provide  for  us.  These  are 
the  words — 

••'  Resolved,  That  the  power  of  the  Legislature  to  impose  taxes,  ought  to  be  so  limited, 
as  to  prohibit  the  imposition  on  property,  either  real  or  personal,  of  any  other  than  an 

ad  valorem''  tax  ;  and  that  in  apportioning  this  tax,  either  for  State  or  County  pur- 
poses, the  whole  visible  property  (household  furniture  and  wearing  apparel  excepted) 
of  each  individual  in  the  connnunity,  ought  to  be  valued,  and  taxed  only  in  proportion 
to  its  value  :  Provided,  however,  that  no  individual,  whose  property  (with  the  above 
exception)  does  not  exceed  in  value  dollars,  ought  to  be  vsubject  to  any  property 
tax  whatever  :  And  provided,  moreover,  that  the  Legislature  may  impose  on  all  pro- 
fessions and  occupations,  usually  resorted  to  as  a  means  of  support,  such  taxes  as  may 
be  deemed  reasonable." 

Resolved,  That,  to  prevent  an  unfair  distribution  of  the  revenue  of  the  Common- 
wealth, the  Legislature  ought  to  be  prohibited  from  making  appropriations  (except 
by  tiie  votes  of  two-tliirds  of  the  members  of  both  its  branches)  to  anyroad  or  canal, 
until  three-fifths  of  the  amount  necessary  to  complete  such  road  or  canal,  shall  have 

22 


170 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


been  otherwise  subscribed,  and  either  paid  or  secured  to  be  paid  as  the  law  may  di- 
rect." 

Now,  the  first  resohition  only  proposes  to  provide,  that  taxes  instead  of  being  im- 
posed on  specific  articles  of  property,  shall  be  ad  ralorem  taxes.  Of  the  inconveni- 
ence, and  perhaps  the  impracticability,  of  the  scheme,  in  a  financial  view,  I  have  no- 
thing to  say.  Suppose  it  be  ordained,  that,  henceforth,  all  taxation  shall  be  ad  valo- 
rem ;  still  the  power  of  laijing  the  taxes  is  to  be  confided  to  the  West,  and  the  duty 
of  j9a?/i7io-  them  to  be  imposed  on  the  East ;  still,  the  duty  of  contribution  will  lie  on 
us,  and  the  right  of  appropriation  belong  to  them  ;  still,  three  dollars  are  to  be  exacted 
from  the  East  for  every  dollar  contributed  by  the  West ;  and  still,  the  West  will  have, 
and  forever  continue  to  have,  purposes  to  answer  in  the  expenditure  of  the  public  re- 
venue, in  which  they  have,  and  we  have  not,  a  direct  interest,  and  far  more  expen- 
sive than  any  in  which  we  can  have  any  direct  interest.  And  these  are  the  very 
evils,  against  which  the  proposed  guaranty  is  professedly  intended  to  guard  us.  If 
my  neighbour,  having  ten  thousand  and  I  thirty  thousand  dollars,  should  propose  to 
me  to  throw  the  whole  into  common  stock,  and  leave  it  to  me  to  determine  the  distri- 
bution of  it  between  us  ;  I  should  accede  to  the  proposal  readily  enough — I  should 
be  sure  to  take  back  all  that  I  put  in — and  I  trust — though  I  do  not  Imoic — I  should 
be  loath  to  meet  the  temptation — but  I  trvst  I  should  restore  the  full  amount  of  his 
contribution,  to  him  or  his  family.  But  if  he  should  propose  such  a  community  of 
property,  and  tliat  lie  should  have  the  power  of  distribution  

[  Mr.  Fitzhugh  explained.  His  proposition  only  contained  a  simple  statement.  It 
did  not  go  to  making  the  taxe_s  equal  on  all,  but  to  give  a  security  against  the  appre- 
hension that  the  whole  weiglTt  would  be  thrown  on  the  slave  property.  It  was  in- 
tended to  guard  against  that  only.  ] 

Mr.  Leigh.  It  is,  then,  admitted,  that  the  guaranty  was  intended  to  protect  us 
against  unequal  and  oppressive  taxation  on  our  slave  property  only.  But,  I  shewed 
yesterday,  that  the  far  greater  mass  of  taxable  property  of  every  kind,  as  well  as  of 
the  slave  property,  lies  on  the  East  side  of  the  mountain  ;  and  what  odds  can  it  pos- 
sibly make  to  us,  that  the  unequal  exaction  is  to  be  made  by  a  tax  on  one  kind  of 
property,  rather  than  another And  how  does  the  regulation  against  the  abuse  of 
the  power  of  taxation,  affect  the  correlative,  and  to  us  equally  dangerous  power  of 
appropriation  ?  But  this  is  provided  for,  by  the  second  branch  of  the  gentleman's 
guaranty. 

He  proposes  in  order  to  prevent  an  unfair  distribution  of  the  public  revenue,  to 
require  a  majority  of  tiDO-tldrds  of  both  branches  of  the  Legislature,  to  make  appro- 
priations of  revenue,  for  any  road  or  canal;  meaning,  generally,  I  presume,  any 
work  of  public  improvement.  Does  not  the  gentleman  from  Fairfax — I  appeal  to  liis 
good  sense  and  candour — does  he  not  himself  perceive,  that  this  proposal  distinctly 
implies,  that  the  scheme  of  representation,  of  which  it  is  intended  to  provide  a  cor- 
rective, is  in  itself  unfair  ?  If  it  be  fair,  why  should  a  bare  majority  be  restrained 
from  making  appropriations  to  any  conceivable  object  ?  Is  not  the  requisition  of  this 
majority  of  two-thirds  to  appropriations  of  that  kind,  a  plain  admission,  that  the  pro- 
posed scheme  of  representation  does  not  give  the  East  a  representation  adequate  to 
the  protection  of  our  property  and  are  roads  and  canals  the  only  objects,  for  which 
unequal  distributions  of  public  treasure  can  possibly  be  made  Is  it  a  whit  more  fair 
or  equitable,  for  example,  that  the  East  should  contribute  three  dollars  towards  the 
education  of  the  children  of  the  people  of  the  West,  for  every  dollar  they  contribute 
towards  the  education  of  our  children,  than  that  we  should  contribute  three  dollars  to 
their  one,  for  the  purposes  of  internal  improvement  But,  Sir,  this  same  requisition 
of  a  majority  of  two-tliirds  of  the  Legislature,  to  appropriations  of  this  kind,  and  to 
acts  for  several  other  purposes,  has  been  ordained  hj  the  amended  Constitution  of 
New- York  of  1820.  And  wliat  is  the  efficacy  of  the  provision,  in  its  practical  opera- 
tion ?  I  derive  my  information  from  an  unquestionable  source — from  the  gentleman 
from  Loudoun,  (Mr.  Mercer.)  I  have  learned  from  him,  that  the  provision  has  been 
invariably  defeated  and  rendered  utterly  nugatory,  by  combinations  of  the  represen- 
tatives of  the  different  parts  of  the  State,  having  different  objects  at  heart,  but  uniting 
to  carry  the  schemes  of  all,  in  order  to  gratify  the  particular  wishes  and  to  subserve 
the  local  projects  of  each.  Now,  can  the  gentleman  from  Fairfax  devise  any  guaranty 
of  force  sufficient  to  prevent  Log-rolling  ?  (I  borrow  the  metaphor  from  Kentucky, 
and  a  most  apt  and  expressive  one  it  is.)  If  he  can,  then  I  may  safely  promise — in 
the  language  addressed  some  years  ago  to  tlie  County  Court  of  Giles,  by  the  settlers 
of  a  remote  corner  of  the  county,  whose  only  mode  of  punishing  offenders  was  to  re- 
fuse to  Log-roll  with  them,  in  the  literal  sense  of  the  phrase — then,  I  may  safely  pro- 
mise him  to  come  under  civilized  Government — for  it  seems  to  be  imagined,  that  no 
Government  is  a  civilized  one,  unless  it  be  founded  on  the  natural  rights  of  man,  in  a 
savage  state. 

Sir,  unless  I  be  labouring  under  some  strange  delusion,  it  must  now  be  apparent  to 
the  Committee,  that  the  proposed  guarajities  are  wholly  nugatory. 


DEBATES    OF   THE    CO>*TENTION.  ,  171 


But  a  compromise  has  been  recommended  to  us.  by  the  venerable  gentleman  from 
Loudoun  (Mr.  Monroe) — recommended  to  the  hearts,  rather  than  to  the  reason,  of 
the  Eastern  delegation  in  this  body — recommended  in  a  tone  of  feehng,  such  as  might 
be  expected  from  a  father  seeking  to  heal  discords  among  liis  cliildren  :  and  it  is  the 
feeling  that  dictated  it.  which  alone,  in  my  mind,  gives  any  force  to  the  recommen- 
dation. He  proposes,  that  the  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  be  ap- 
portioned to  the  white  population  exclusively :  and  to  guard  the  interest  of  property, 
to  guard  the  property  of  the  East  against  unjust  and  oppressive  taxation,  that  the  re- 
presentation in  the  Senate  shall  be  apportioned  according  to  the  combined  ratio  of 
white  population  and  taxation.  Let  me  ask  the  venerable  gentleman — seeing,  that 
his  object  is  to  pro^ude  a  perfect  security  for  the  great  mass  of  property  held  by  the 
East,  against  abuses  of  the  power  of  taxation  by  the  reformed  Legislature,  that  he  ac- 
knowleciges  the  right  of  the  East  to  such  security,  and  that  his  plan  of  giving  us  the 
security  to  which  he  admits  our  just  claim,  is,  to  found  the  representation  in  the  two 
branches  of  the  Legislature  upon  dilFerent  bases — did  he  never  reflect,  that  this  kind 
of  security  for  the  interests  of  property,  ought  to  be  provided  in  the  constitution  of 
the  House  of  Delegates,  the  tax-giring  branch,  rather  than  in  the  Senate,  which  is  not, 
and  no  man  intends  should  be,  the  tax-giving  branch,  of  the  Legislature?  While  the 
East  is  complaining  of  the  injustice  of  being  subjected  to  taxation  by  a  power,  which 
will  not  be  restrained  from  abuse  by  anj'  community  of  interest  with  them,  and  agi- 
tated with  the  most  anxious  apprehensions  of  the  danger  of  such  abuse  of  power,  and 
these  apprehensions  are,  in  the  opinion  of  the  venerable  gentleman,  reasonable — the 
same  g-entleman,  to  appease  our  just  complaints,  and  to  allay  our  well-grounded  ap- 
prehensions, would  give  us  security  against  the  abuse  of  the  power  oT  taxation  in 
the  frame  of  the  Senate  wliich  is  to  have  no  original  power  of  taxation,  and  deny  it  to 
U3  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  in  which  the  chief  power  of  taxation  is  to  be  vested ! 
The  voice  of  truth  and  reason  and  justice  must  be  silent. 

But,  Sir,  let  us  suppose  the  proposed  compromise,  or  a  more  efficient  one  framed  on 
like  principles,  acceded  to,  and  ordained  in  our  reformed  Constitution — let  us  suppose 
the  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates  based  upon  the  white  population  ex- 
clusivelv,  and  the  representation  in  the  Senate  based  upon  taxation  alone,  or  upon  the 
total  population,  bond  and  free,  or  upon  the  basis  of  white  population  and  taxation 
combined — we  shall  then  have  a  House  of  Delegates  of  from  an  iiwidred  and  ticenty 
to  an  hundred  and  fifty  members,  and  a  Senate  of  ticenty  four  members.  Let  the  re- 
lative powers  of  the  two  Houses,  as  to  money  bills,  remain  as  at  present — the  power 
of  originating  money  bills  vested  exclusively  in  the  lower  House,  and  the  Senate  re- 
stricted from  amendment  as  to  such  bills,  and  bound  wholly  to  reject  them  or  take 
them  witiaout  alteration.  The  lower  House  sends  up  a  money  bill — the  Senate,  think- 
ing the  taxation  unjust  or  excessive,  rejects  it — the  lower  House  returns  the  same  bill, 
an^  tlie  Senate  again  rejects  it — a  conilict  ensues  between  the  two  Houses:  is  it  not 
quite  apparent,  that  the  lower  House  has  the  power,  either  of  compelhng  the  Senate 
to  take  exactly  such  a  revenue  bill  as  they  think  equitable  and  politic,  or  of  throwing 
upon  the  Senate  the  awful  responsibility  of  stopping  the  wheels  of  Government.-' 
Follow  the  example  of  the  Federal  Constitution — leave  the  power  of  originatincr  mo- 
ney bills  in  the  lower  House,  give  the  Senate  the  povv'er  of  amending  them.  The 
lower  House  sends  up  its  revenue  bill — the  Senate,  constituted  (upon  tlie  supposed 
plan)  the  guardian  of  taxable  property,  finds  the  exactions  unjust  or  enormous,  and 
offers  amendments  to  correct  or  reduce  them — the  lower  House  rejects  the  amend- 
ments :  then,  the  same  conflict  nmst  ensue,  as  in  the  other  case,  only  it  will  now  turn 
on  the  amendments  of  the  Senate  instead  of  the  original  bill  of  the  other  House:  and 
the  same  consequences  must  follow.  In  any  serious  conflict  between  the  two  Houses, 
let  us  see  which  is  likely  to  prevail.  The  members  of  botli  Houses  are  drawn  from  the 
same  order  of  men,  and  the  only  difference  between  them  consists  in  the  duration  of 
their  service.  The  only  operation  of  the  Senate  in  all  our  State  Governments  (the 
Senate  of  the  United  States  is  organized  on  peculiar  principles)  is  to  suspend  for  a 
ti  ne,  never  to  defeat  entirely,  the  actions  of  the  other  House  resolutely  persisted  in. 
The  lower  House  is  the  more  numerous  body,  more  intimately  connected  with  the 
people,  and  every  way  endued  with  greater  moral  and  political  energy.  According- 
ly, even  under  tlie  present  organization  of  the  Legislature  the  Senate  has  never  had 
iJie  strength,  for  any  long  time,  to  resist  any  measure,  in  wliich  the  other  House,  ses- 
sion after  session,  strenuously  perseveres;  and  when  the  proposed  re-organization 
shall  be  made,  making  the  lower  House  the  representative  of  numbers,  and  the  Senate 
the  representative  property .  the  Senate  will  have  still  less  relative  strength.  Let 
it  attempt  resistance  to  any  favorite  measure  of  the  representatives  of  persons,  free 
rchite  persons  ;  such  a  cry  "will  be  forthwith  raised  against  the  odious  aristocracy  on 
which  its  Constitution  is  founded,  the  aristocracy  of  wealth,  as  will  make  its  mem- 
bers tremble  in  their  seats,  pause,  waver,  and  at  last  yield,  disheartened  and  impotent. 
The  lower  House  mav  exercise  another  influence,  if  possible,  of  a  more  pernicious 
kind.    As  it  is  a  numerous  body,  it  has  in  fact  the  whole  patronage  in  its  hands,  in 


112 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


respect  of  all  appointments  to  be  made  by  joint  vote  of  both  branches.  A  Senator  of 
Virginia,  nay,  many  Senators,  may  have  an  ambition  to  be  a  Senator  of  the  United 
States,  or  a  Judge,  or  Governor  (we  may  change  the  mode  of  appointment  as  to  the 
two  last,  but  we  cannot  as  to  the  first;)  such  a  Senator,  unless  he  be  more  than  man, 
must  wish  to  conciliate  the  low.er  House — and  then  Remember  the  weight  of  a  Back 
Woods  vote ! 

Sir,  I  insist,  that  the  lower  House  is  here,  as  it  is  in  England,  the  proper  represen- 
tative of  the  interests  of  property;  and  it  is  for  that  very  reason,  and  no  other,  that 
its  responsibility  to  the  people,  is  increased  by  the  short  duration  of  its  term  of  service. 

Let  us,  however,  suppose,  that  the  guaranties  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Fair- 
fax, (Mr.  Fitzhugh,)  are  efficient,  or  tliat  some  other  efficient  guaranties  can  be  de- 
vised— and  let  us  suppose  too,  that  in  addition  to  those  guaranties,  a  check  upon  the 
power  of  taxation  is  provided,  by  so  constituting  the  Senate  as  to  make  it  a  represen- 
tative of  property — and  that  these  safeguards,  if  preserved,  are  completely  adequate 
to  the  intended  purpose:  What  security  would  they  affi)rd  us.-*  security  only  so  long 
as  they  shall  be  continued.  Is  there,  or  can  there  be,  any  security  that  they  will  be 
continued  ?  We  may  provide  for  future  amendments,  with  the  most  jealous  care  to 
prevent  reckless  innovation  ;  but  we  cannot  destroy  the  inherent  power  of  the  people 
to  call  another  Convention ;  and  the  moment  the  representative  of  numbers  shall  feel 
the  check,  numbers  may,  and  numbers  will,  have  another  Convention  to  abolish  the 
check. 

But  it  is  not  a  consideration  of  this  vital  power  of  taxation  alone,  which  should  im- 
pel us  of  the  East,  to  resist,  to  the  bitter  end,  this  transfer  of  power  to  the  West. 
There  may  be  unjust  legislation,  as  well  as  oppressive  taxation.  Our  slave  property 
is  a  subject,  in  the  management  of  which,  the  owners  cannot  admit  any  interference, 
without  the  extremest  danger.  It  seems  to  be  supposed,  in  the  United  States  and  in 
Great  Britain  too,  that  those  who  possess  the  least  portion  of  that  kind  of  property, 
are  better  entitled,  and  more  competent  to  manage  it,  than  those  who  have  the  most; 
and  by  parity  of  reason,  those  who  hold  none,  have  the  very  best  title,  and  the  greatest 
degree  of  competency,  to  the  management  of  it.  Upon  this  principle  it  is,  that  Mr. 
Wilberforce,  and  the  party  of  the  Saints  in  England,  insist  on  taking  the  regulation 
of  the  slave  property  in  the  West  Indies  into  their  hands,  against  the  earnest  remon- 
strances of  the  planters  to  whom  it  belongs.  So,  the  statesmen  of  the  Northern  States, 
fancy  themselves  better  acquainted  with  the  subject,  than  those  ot  the  South;  and  our 
brethren  of  the  Northern  part  of  this  State,  claim  greater  fitness  for  the  task,  than 
their  fellow-citizens  of  the  Southern  counties.  The  gentleman  from  Hampshire,  (Mr. 
Naylor,)  thinks,  that  slavery  is  one  of  the  causes  of  the  decline  of  Virginia ;  and  I 
suppose  he  would  be  ready  to  promote  her  prosperity ,  by  removing  this  cause  of  her 
decline  

[Mr.  Naylor  rose,  and  denied  the  inference  which  the  gentleman  had  drawn,  fi-om 
any  thing  which  he  had  said.  He  deprecated  tho  idea  which  had  been  suggested,  as 
to  the  emancipation  of  the  slaves.  And  he  took  occasion  further  to  state,  that  he  con- 
sidered it  perfectly  consistent  with  the  principles  of  morality  and  justice,  situated  as 
we  are,  to  hold  them  as  we  now  do.] 

Mr.  Leigh — The  gentleman  from  Hampshire  is  advanced  in  years,  and  may  not 
change  his  sentiments — but,  when  Mr.  Wilberforce  proposed  to  abolish  the  ^^/are  ?r«rfe, 
he  did  not  imagine,  that  he  should  ever  find  it  wise  to  abolish  slavery  in  the  West 
Indies : — When  men's  minds  once  take  this  direction,  they  pursue  it  as  steadily,  as 
man  pursues  his  course  to  the  grave. 

Sir,  the  venerable  gentleman  from  Loudoun  (Mr.  Monroe)  spoke  of  the  impracti- 
cability of  any  scheme  of  emancipation,  without  the  aid  of  the  General  Government. 
Is  he,  then,  and  if  he  is,  are  ice  reconciled  to  the  idea  of  the  interference  of  the  Gene- 
ral Government  in  this  most  delicate  and  peculiar  interest  of  our  own .''  What  right 
can  that  Government  have  to  interfere  in  it 

[Mr.  Monroe  here  explained. 

1  consider  the  question  of  slavery  as  one  of  the  most  important  that  can  come  be- 
fore this  body  :  it  is  certainly  one  which  must  deeply  aflfect  the  Commonwealth,  whe- 
ther the  decision  be  to  maintain  it  over  those  now  in  that  state,  or  to  attempt  their 
emancipation.  The  idea  I  meant  to  suggest  was,  that  the  subject  had  assumed  a  new 
and  very  important  character,  by  what  had  occurred  in  the  other  States,  and  particu- 
larly in  those  in  which  slavery  does  not  exist.  We  had  seen  in  the  early  stage  a  strong 
pressure  for  emancipation  from  the  Eastern  States,  and  equally  so  of  late  from  the 
States  in  the  West ;  but  emancipation  had  thrown  many  of  our  liberated  slaves  upon 
them  ;  in  consequence  of  which,  they  have  been  driven  back,  and  all  interference  on 
their  part  has  ceased. 

The  subject  is  now  brought  home  to  them,  as  well  as  to  ourselves,  and  the  question 
to  be  decided  by  us  is,  whether  their  emancipation  is  practicable  or  not.  Should  the 
decision  be  that  it  was  practicable,  I  did  not  mean  to  convey  the  idea  that  the  United 
States  should  interfere,  of  right,  as  is  advocated  by  many.    I  meant  to  suggest,  that 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONTENTIO:^. 


173 


if  the  wisdom  of  Virffiiiia  should  decide  that  it  was  practicable,  and  invite  the  aid  of 
the  General  Government,  that  it  should  then  be  afforded  at  her  instance,  and  not 
that  of  the  United  States,  as  having  the  least  authority  in  the  matter.] 

Mr.  Leiffh — I  thank  the  gentleman  for  his  explanation.  And  now,  will  he  give  me 
leave  to  propound  to  Mm^one  question — Whether,  with  his  knowledge  and^  experi- 
ence of  the  operations  of  the  General  Government,  he  does  not  know,  that  if  once  it 
be  allowed,  that  that  Government  may  constitutionally  interfere  at  the  instance  of 
the  State,  it  will  not  be  inferred,  that  it  can  constitutionally  interfere  without  any  in- 
stance of  the  State  Government  .=  The  moment  such  an  attempt  shall  be.  there  will, 
there  must  be,  an  end  of  this  L  nion. 

I  wish,  indeed,  that  I  had  been  born  in  a  land  where  domestic  and  negro  slavery  is 
unknoAvn — no  Sir. — I  misrepresent  myself — I  do  not  wish  so — I  shall  never  wish  that 
I  had  been  born  out  of  Virginia — but  1  wish,  that  Providence  had  spared  my  country 
this  moral  and  pohtical  evh.  It  is  supposed,  that  our  slave  labour  enables  us  to  hve 
in  luxury  and  ease,  without  industry,  without  care.  Sir,  the  evil  of  slavery  is  great- 
er to  the  master,  than  to  the  slave  :  He  is  interested  in  all  their  wants,  all  their  dis- 
tresses; bound  to  provide  for  them,  to  care  for  them,  to  labour  for  them,  wliile  they 
labour  for  liira,  and  his  labour  is  by  no  means  the  leeist  severe  of  the  two.  The  rela- 
tion between  master  and  slave,  imposes  on  the  master  a  heavy  and  painful  responsi- 
bility— but  no  more  on  this  head. 

Sir,  the  venerable  gentleman  from  Loudoun  has  told  us  of  the  awful  and  horrid 
scenes  he  was  an  eye-witness  of,  in  France,  during  the  reign  of  democracy,  or  rather 
of  anarchy,  there.  I  wish  he  had  told  us,  (as  he  told  the  Souse  of  Delegates  La  1810, 
when  he  opposed  the  call  of  a  Convention,  and  re-counted  those  same^horrors)  that 

he  had  seen  liberty  expiring  from  excess" — these  were  his  words.  France  was  then 
arranged  into  equal  departments,  with  equal  representation,  and  general  suffi-ao;e — in 
short,  enjoying  the  unalloyed  blessing  of  tlie  natural  rights  of  man  !  Have  I  lost  my 
senses !  Is  the  phantom  that  fiUs  my  breast  with  such  horror — the  lihertij  of  Virsinia 
expiring  icith  excess — a  creature  of  the  imagination,  that  can  never  be  realized  !  ~The 
venerable  gentleman  has  described  those  horrors  in  France — has  painted  them  to  us 
in  all  the  Ireshness  of  reahty — and  then  told  us,  in  the  same  breath,  that  he  is  pre- 
pared to  vote  for  the  same  system  here.  The  same  causes  uniformlv  produce  the 
same  effects. — I  mean  to  speak  with  freedom,  yet  not  without  the  respect  due  to  the 
venerable  gentleman,  and  which  I  should  render  as  a  willing  tribute  :  I  cannot  for- 
bear to  express  my  astonishment,  that  he  should  be  willing  to  adopt,  for  his  own  coun- 
try, the  principles  that  led  to  those  horrors  he  has  so  feelingly  described — 
Mr.  rvlonroe  rose  to  explain  : 

Mr.  Leigh — I  request  the  gentleman  to  suspend  his  explanation,  till  I  conclude  what 
little  more  I  have  to  say. 

I  am  sensible,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  some  of  the  opinions  I  have  advanced,  and  some 
of  the  propositions  I  have  maintained,  are  calculated  to  shock  the  principles.  I  mi0-ht 
perhaps  say,  the  prejudices,  of  many.  I  know,  that  the  very  propositions  of  the  trtith 
of  which  i  am  most  firmly  convinced,  if  pushed  to  extremes,  would  end  in  folly  and 
vice ;  but  it  is  an  eternal  truth,  in  all  the  moral  sciences,  that  no  principle,  however 
just,  will  hold  good  to  the  utmost  extreme  ;  and  there  is  no  argument,  which  by  that 
process  is  not  capable  of  refutation.  I  pray  the  gentleman  from  Frederick  (Mr. 
Cooke)  to  ponder  well  those  hues,  which,  partly  in  sport,  more  in  kindness,  I  handed 
liim  the  other  day — 

£l?i  modus  in  rebus — sunt  certi  denique  fines, 
Q,uos  ultra  citrare  nequit  consistere  rectum. 

It  has  pleased  Heaven  to  ordain,  that  man  shall  enjoy  no  good  without  alloy.  Its 
choicest  boiinties  are  not  blessings,  unless  the  enjoyment  of  them  be  tempered  with 
moderation.  Liberty  is  only  a  mean  :  the  end  is  happiness.  It  is,  indeed,  the  wine  of 
life  ;  but  like  other  -wines,  it  must  be  used  with  temperance,  in  order  to  be  used  with 
advantage  :  taken  to  excess,  it  first  mtoxicates.  then  maddens,  and  at  last  destroys. 

Mr.  Monroe  now  rose  to  explain.  My  worthy  friend  from  Chesterfield,  expresses 
his  surprise  at  the  view  1  now  talie  after  what  1  had  seen  in  France.  What  I  meant  to 
convey,  in  the  remarks  to  which  he  alludes,  was,  that  the  commotions  I  had  witnessed 
inclined  me  in  ISIO,  rather  to  oppose  the  petition  from  Accomac,  in  favour  of  a  new 
Constitution  and  the  extension  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  wliich  was  advocated  in  the 
debate,  but  that  I  had  so  far  overcome  that  impression,  as  now  to  be  in  favour  of  ex- 
tending that  right.  I  will  further  explain,  my  opinion  at  that  time,  was  not  made  up 
— I  found  cause  to  hesitate,  but  it  was  merely  that  the  subject  might  be  thoroughly 
anahzed  and  investigated  to  the  bottom  in  a  view  of  the  conduct  of  men,  in  such  cir- 
cumstances through  all  asres.  When  we  trace  the  popular  movements  in  France  to 
their  causes,  it  wifl  be  seen  that  these  causes  do  not  exist  here.  The  people  of  France 
had  been  ruled  by  despotism,  and  held  in  an  abject  and  deplorable  situation  for  ages. 
They  were  educated  and  reared  under  despotism.    The  idea  of  hberty  was  cherished 


174 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


among  them.  They  were  devoted  to  it— but  rising  out  of  slavery  they  were  incom- 
petent to  govern  themselves.  The  effect  which  despotic  Government  has  on  the  in- 
telligence and  manners  of  the  people  under  it,  is  supported  by  all  history.  The  great 
mass  are  ignorant  and  trained  to  obedience.  Those  of  France,  had  caught  the  spirit 
of  liberty,  and  would  no  longer  submit  to  the  power  of  the  crown  and  nobility.  They 
rose  in  a  body  suddenly,  and  with  violence,  and  overwhelming  the  existing  Govern- 
ment, they  took  the  whole  power  into  their  own  hands,  but  were  incompetent  to  a 
proper  use  of  it.  These  remarks  on  the  condition  of  France  will  apply  to  all  Europe, 
but  less  to  England  than  to  other  European  nations.  It  was  the  effort  of  the  people 
of  England  which  repelled  the  despotism  with  which  they  were  menaced,  and  laid 
the  basis  of  that  Constitution,  from  which,  as  it  has  been  stated  by  my  friend  from 
Chesterfield,  all  our  institutions  have  taken  their  origin.  But  there  is  no  part  of  Eu- 
rope, not  England  itself,  I  fear,  that  could  support  such  a  Government  as  we  enjoy 
here.  The  power  was  vested  essentially  in  the  popular  branch,  during  our  Colonial 
State,  in  all  the  Colonies.  There  was  little  to  oppose  it,  but  the  veto  of  the  Crown. 
All  America  was  arrayed  against  the  Crown.  We  assembled  in  our  revolution,  and 
crushed  it,  and  the  power  of  the  Crown  then  passed  to  the  body  of  the  people.  The 
people  of  these  Colonies  never  were  slaves  :  they  were  an  enlightened  people  who 
had  fled  from  oppression  in  England,  and  came  here  in  search  of  liberty.  The  love 
of  it  characterized  us  in  our  Colonial  state,  and  continued  to  do  so  up  to  the  period  of 
our  Independence.  Look  at  Asia,  at  Africa,  and  even  at  Europe,  and  what  is  their 
condition  ?  If  there  is  a  portion  of  the  earth  where  self-government  can  be  maintain- 
ed, it  is  in  these  United  States :  and  I  say  again,  that  Virginia  is  as  competent  to  it, 
as  any  other  part  of  the  Union. 

As  to  the  slave  population,  it  exists  here,  and  whether  we  shall  get  rid  of  it  or  not 
is  for  those  who  own  it  to  decide  for  themselves.  The  States  where  it  does  not  exist, 
must  never  interfere  unless  authorized  and  invited  to  do  it.  But  if  the  decision  shall 
be,  that  they  cannot  be  emancipated,  (and  I  could  never  consent  that  they  should  be, 
unless  you  send  them  away,)  it  is  equally  the  interest  of  the  non-slave-holding  as  of 
the  slave-holding  States,  to  support  the  latter  in  their  authority  over  their  slaves. 
Where  they  are,  they  never  can  enjoy  equal  rights  with  the  white  population  ;  and  if 
emancipated,  interminable  war  would  ensue.  If  I  say  it  shall  be  the  sentiment  of  the 
Southern  States,  that  slavery  must  continue  forever,  then  what  has  passed  will  induce 
the  other  States  to  support  us. 

I  would  never,  by  any  act  of  imprudence,  raise  up  the  non-slave-holding  States  into 
hostility  against  the  others.  If  you  marshal  them  against  each  other,  what  then  must 
be  the  consequence  ?  Dismemberment  will  be  inevitable.  The  European  powers  all 
fight  against  each  other,  and  we  should  go  on  the  same  way.  The  non-slave-holding 
States  would  incite  insurrections  among  our  slave  population,  as  was  done  by  the  re 
publics  of  ancient  Greece,  and  desolate  the  country.  I  am  for  moving  with  great 
caution  and  circumspection  in  this  matter. 

Mr.  Mercer  then  addressed  the  Committee  : 

In  casting  himself  on  the  indulgence  of  the  committee,  in  the  present  stage  of  the 
interesting  debate  by  which  its  attention  had  been  so  long  occupied,  Mr.  Mercer 
said,  he  laboured  under  the  influence  of  feelings  which  he  had  not  language  to  convey, 
and  the  expression  of  which  he  feared  would  disqualify  him  for  the  arduous  task  which 
he  had  undertaken  to  perform.  The  sentiment  first  at  his  heart  was,  that  the  depend- 
ing question  might  terminate  in  a  result,  propitious  to  the  union,  and  happiness  to  the 
whole  Commonwealth.  While  desirous  of  extending  to  the  people  of  the  West  a 
just  participation  in  the  political  power  of  the  Government ;  a  power  proportioned  to 
their  relative  numbers,  he  entered  upon  the  present  discussion  with  no  unfriendly 
feeling  towards  the  East.  Such  a  feeling  would  be  equally  at  war  with  all  his  recol- 
lections and  all  his  hopes.  His  cradle  was  rocked  by  the  margin  of  the  placid  tide, 
though  Providence  had  placed  his  dwelling  by  the  side  of  the  mountain  torrent.  He 
had  not  a  drop  of  kindred  blood  flowing  in  the  veins  of  any  living  being  that  did  not 
warm  the  heart  of  some  lov\^land  man,  or  lowland  woman.  He  came  into  this  Con- 
vention not  to  assert  the  power  of  one  portion  of  the  State  to  control  the  other,  but 
with  a  fixed  determination  to  uphold  the  rights  and  interests  of  all,  on  the  broad  and 
solid  basis  of  those  great  principles  of  political  liberty  which  our  forefathers  had  at  all 
times  struggled  to  maintain.  Emphatically  might  he  say  this,  and  vouch  this  Assem- 
bly itself  for  his  proof.  Through  what  channel,  he  asked,  did  the  resolution  of  the 
Legislative  Committee,  now  in  discussion,  reach  this  Convention  ?  By  what  hand  was 
the  report  of  that  committee  presented  in  this  Hall?  By  that  hand,  which,  more  than 
any  other  now  in  being,  had  contributed  to  trace  the  outline  and  lay  the  foundation  of 
the  great  structure  of  our  free  institutions.  By  whom  had  the  principles  of  this  report 
been  just  sustained  ?  By  his  illustrious  co-patriot,  who,  alone,  of  this  Assembly,  had 
enjoyed  the  high  honor  of  consecrating  those  principles  by  his  blood. 

We  are  charged  with  asserting  new  and  impracticable  doctrines.  Behold  the  proof 
of  this  allegation.    Are  they  not  founded  on  the  principles,  if  the  terra  may  now  be 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


175 


allowed  him,  of  every  Bill  or  Declaration  of  Rights  of  every  State  in  this  Union,  which 
has  framed  a  Constitution  since  our  glorious  revolution  ?  Are  they  not  sanctioned  by 
the  concurrent  voice  of  the  v/isest  statesmen,  and  the  purest  patriots,  on  both  sides  of 
the  Atlantic  ?  Are  they  not  the  principles  of  the  father  of  English  metaphysics,  and 
champion  of  British  liberty — the  immortal  Locke  ?  Are  they  not  the  principles  for 
which  Milton  successfully  contended  against  the  united  power  of  political  and  eccle- 
siastical tyranny  ;  and  for  which,  in  a  still  earlier  age,  the  noble  Sydney  bled  ? 

Could  this  question  be  tried,  without  prejudice,  its  issue  would  not  long  be  doubtful. 
The  very  process,  by  which  our  assailants  seek  to  over-power  us,  affords  sufficient 
evidence  of  the  strength  of  our  cause.  Principles  must  be  true,  which  can  be  suc- 
cessfully controverted  only  by  such  arguments — arguments  invented  and  most  ably 
enforced,  by  gentlemen  inured  to  the  habits  of  a  profession,  which,  above  all  others, 
teaches  its  professors  how  to  discover,  to  touch,  and  to  move  all  the  secret  springs  of 
the  human  heart.  What  are  the  prejudices  which  seek  to  obstruct  our  better  judg- 
ment on  the  present  occasion  ?  Some  are  too  obvious  to  elude  our  perception,  and 
must  be  dissipated  when  approached.  The  eloquent  member  from  Chesterfield,  pro- 
claims with  seeming  regret,  that,  between  the  district,  which  I  have  the  honor,  in 
part,  to  represent,  and  the  western  counties  of  Virginia,  there  are  no  longer  any  Py-  - 
rennees.  From  Ashby's  Gap  to  the  Potor/iac,  the  Blue  Ridge,  he  tells  us,  has  disap- 
peared. This  illusion  of  his  own  imagination,  the  honorable  member  infers,  from  the 
sympathy  subsisting  in  the  present  contest,  betweeji  the  people  of  Loudoun,  and  their 
fellow  citizens  of  the  West.  To  the  other  districts,  on  the  Eastern  face  of  the  Blue 
Ridge,  which  espouse  the  same  side  of  this  cause  with  my  constituents,  and  obviously 
for  the  same  reason,  he  liberally  awards  the  praise  of  magnanimity,  which  he  denies 
to  them. 

Might  he  not  have  more  impartially  accounted  for  the  zeal  of  Loudoun  for  a  Con 
vention,  from  the  notorious  fact  that  while  she  pays  into  the  Public  Treasury  twenty 
times  the  amount  of  taxes  paid  by  the  county  of  Warwick,  and  has  more  than  six- 
and-twenty  times  the  free  white  population  of  Warwick — she  has  but  the  same  poli- 
tical weight  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  under  the  Constitution  of  Government  which 
tliis  Convention  has  been  deputed  to  amend.  That  twenty-six  freemen  of  Loudoun 
have,  in  this  branch  of  the  Legislature,  the  weight  of  but  one  freeman  of  Warwick. 

But  the  honorable  member,  disregarding  this  inequality,  has  found  the  origin  of  the 
present  Convention  in  splendid  schemes  of  internal  improvement,  to  which  the  Con- 
stitutional scruples,  manifested,  by  Virginia,  in  the  councils  of  the  Union,  oppose  a 
barrier,  that  the  new  distribution  of  political  power  sought  to  be  effected  by  the  reso- 
lution in  debate,  will  enable  the  W^est  to  prostrate.  In  that  ardent  zeal,  which  had 
prompted  so  many  other  gentlemen,  as  well  as  the  member  from  Chesterfield,  to  im- 
pute to  the  friends  of  a  Convention,  local,  selfish  and  sordid  motives  for  their  present 
union  of  council,  they  have  forgotten  much,  and  in  part,  the  history  of  our  Legisla- 
tion on  this  subject. 

Internal  Improvement — the  cause  of  this  Convention  !  Who,  until  the  second  day 
of  March,  1817,  had  ever  heard  an  objection  started  to  the  Constitutional  power  of 
the  Federal  Government  to  aid,  by  the  resources  of  the  Union,  the  efforts  of  the 
States,  to  construct  roads,  or  canals  of  general  interest.  A  few  days  only,  prior  to 
this  period,  a  resolution,  recommended  by  the  unanimous  report  of  the  Board  of  Pub- 
lic Works,  passed  both  branches  of  the  General  Assembly,  with  like  unanimity,  to 
request  of  the  Government  of  the  United  States,  pecuniary  aid  in  promoting  the  then 
contemplated  junction  of  the  eastern  and  western  waters  of  Virginia  by  the  James 
and  Kanawha  rivers.  A  similar  resolution  had  passed  the  House  of  Delegates  with- 
out opposition  at  the  preceding  session  of  1815.  It  was,  however,  near  the  close  of 
that  session,  on  the  8th  February,  1816,  that  a  bill,  to  take  the  sense  of  the  people  on 
the  propriety  of  calling  a  Convention,  first  received  the  sanction  of  a  majority  of 
the  House  of  Delegates,  and  that  majority  embraced  both  the  delegates  from  Lou- 
doun. 

This  bill  was  afterwards  lost  at  its  third  reading  :  but  a  similar  one  finally  passed 
the  House  of  Delegates  with  the  co-operation  of  the  Loudoun  delegation  during  the 
succeeding  winter,  and  more  than  a  month  before  the  President's  message,  of  the  2d 
March,  1817,  had  excited  a  doubt  in  the  public  mind,  of  the  Constitutional  authority 
of  Congress  to  aid  the  several  States  in  the  construction  of  works  of  internal  improve- 
ment. A  State  fund,  for  roads  and  canals,  had  been  already  created,  and  was  in  suc- 
cessful operation.  How,  then,  can  it  be  candidly  maintained,  that  the  efforts  so  stea- 
dily prosecuted,  to  amend  tJie  Constitution  of  Virginia,  by  a  Convention,  sprung  from 
those  impediments  which  this  Commonwealth  has  since  thrown  in  the  path  of  internal 
improvement,  whether  by  withholding  from  that  object,  her  own  resources,  or  restrain 
ing  the  application  of  those  of  the  Union 

He  would,  eaid  Mr.  Mercer,  proceed  one  step  farther :  and  to  refute  this  charge, 
very  briefly  state  a  few  of  the  reasons  which  prompted  the  fruitless  effort  to  obtain  a 
Convention  in  1815,  and  which  have  since  been  more  successfully  urged.  Among 


176 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


the  most  prominent  of  those  reasons,  was  that  very  inequahty  of  representation,  which 
has  given  rise  to  this  debate,  and  which  so  shocks  every  feehng  of  political  justice, 
that  no  argument  has  yet  been  heard  in  its  vindication.  Another  grievance,  then, 
also,  pressing  on  the  public  consideration,  was  the  overgrown  and  disproportionate 
numbers  of  the  House  of  Delegates. 

When  our  forefathers  penned  the  present  Constitution,  there  were  about  140  mem- 
bers in  that  House  ;  and  they  chose  tvventy-fbur,  as  a  suitable  proportion,  for  the  num- 
ber of  the  Senate ;  a  body  designed  not  only  to  revise  the  acts  ol  the  popular  branch 
of  the  Legislature,  but  to  constitute  a  check  on  the  possible  ambition  of  its  leaders. 
But  while  the  Senate,  by  the  Constitutional  limitation  of  its  numbers,  has  been  sta- 
tionary, the  House  of  Delegates  has  been  extended,  from  time  to  time,  by  the  multi- 
plication of  counties,  to  214.  More  than  seventy  members  have  been  thus  added  to 
the  numbers  of  the  Legislature,  during  a  period  in  which  the  territory  of  the  Com- 
monwealth has  been  greatly  reduced.  For,  from  the  county  of  Illinois,  wrested  from 
Great  Britain  in  1779,  by  the  forces  of  the  Commonwealth  under  the  command  of  the 
gallant  Clarke,  and  ceded  in  1784,  to  the  United  States,  no  less  than  three  States  to 
the  east,  aud  one  to  the  west  of  the  Mississippi,  have  arisen.  The  county  of  Yough- 
iogania,  once  represented  on  this  floor,  now  supplies  no  less  than  eight  counties  to 
Western  Pennsylvania  :  Kentucky  has  been  erected  into  a  separate  State  ;  and,  along 
our  southern  border.  North  Carolina  has  a  slip  of  our  former  territory,  beginning 
at  a  point  on  the  Atlantic,  and  gradually  widening  towards  the  Cumberland  moun- 
tain. 

While  a  reduction  of  the  sphere  of  Legislation  recommended  a  correspondent  limi- 
tation of  the  numbers  of  the  Legislative  body,  the  progressive  augmentation  of  its 
annual  expenditure  merited  regard.  In  18M),  the  entire  cost  of  this  Department  of 
the  Government  did  not  exceed  50,000  dollars  a  year.  It  has,  since,  mounted  up  to 
more  than  twice  that  sum. 

To  restore  the  original  proportion  between  the  two  branches  of  the  General  Assem- 
bly, and  to  prevent  a  still  farther  augmentation  of  the  number  of  the  House  of  Dele- 
gates, a  measure  required  by  no  State  necessity,  and  forbid  by  a  due  regard  to  econo- 
my, was  always  in  the  scope  of  that  Constitutional  reform  contemplated  by  the  friends 
of  a  Convention. 

The  abolition  of  the  Council  of  State  was  another  of  their  objects.  Economy  con- 
demned this  worse  than  useless  appendage  to  the  Executive,  which,  in  desiroying  its 
unity,  impaired  both  its  vigor  and  responsibility.  A  feeble  Chief  Magistrate  is  but 
the  tool  of  his  Council,  while  to  an  able  and  unprincipled  Governor,  they  serve  as  a 
cloak. 

The  friends  of  a  Convention,  with  but  few  if  any  exceptions,  had  another  and  more 
aggravated  cause  of  complaint.  Is  there  a  member  of  this  body,  who  thinks  that  the 
right  of  suffrage  now  rests  on  a  proper  basis?  Who  would  not,  if  disposed  to  restrict 
its  exercise  to  a  freehold  qualification,  substitute  for  quantity,  a  valuation- of  the  land 
required  to  confer  a  vote.  Should  a  freeholder  be  allowed  to  exercise  the  right  of 
suffrage  on  fifty  acres  of  land  situated  upon  the  summit  of  a  barren  mountain,  where 
the  crow  would  not  build  her  nest,  while  this  right  is  withheld  from  the  proprietor  of 
a  farm  of  twenty-four  acres  in  some  fertile  valley,  which  with  its  improvements  may 
be  worth  as  many  thousand  dollars  ?  In  one  of  the  most  flourishing  townships  of 
Connecticut,  a  territory  of  more  than  twenty  square  miles,  there  is  not  a  farm  ex- 
ceeding twenty-five  acres  in  dimensions,  the  minimum  estate  which  the  present  Con- 
stitution annexes  to  the  right  of  sufirage,  without  regard  to  its  value. 

Are  we  then,  Mr.  Chairman,  with  these  apologies,  to  be  regarded  as  coming  here  in 
the  prosecution  of  schemes  of  narrow  and  sordid  speculation  ?  May  I  not  pronounce 
such  a  charge  to  be  the  offspring  of  prejudice,  and  say  that  it  is  repelled  by  the  his- 
tory of  the  proceedings  which  have  led  to  this  Convention  ? 

There  is  yet  another  of  analogous  birth  which  remains  to  be  refuted  before  I  pro- 
ceed with  my  enquiry  into  the  expediency  of  the  proposed  amendment  of  the  gentle- 
man from  Culpeper. 

It  has  been  more  than  insinuated,  that  by  the  transfer  of  political  power  from  the 
Eastern  to  the  Western  portion  of  the  Commonwealth,  the  friends  of  a  Convention 
design  to  shake  the  ascendancy  of  certain  political  doctrines,  supposed  to  be  essential 
to  the  rights  of  this  Commonwealth,  as  a  member  of  the  Union. 

If  this  transfer  is  required  by  political  justice,  how  poor  a  comphment  does  this  in- 
sinuation pay  to  the  rights  which  it  thus  seeks  to  defend  ! 

But  of  the  members  of  the  Virginia  Delegation  in  Congress  residing  to  the  West 
of  the  Blue  Ridge,  how  few  are  there  who  differ  from  a  majority  of  the  people  of  the 
State,  in  construing  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  to  say  nothing  of  the  gen- 
tlemen on  this  floor,  from  the  counties  below  the  mountain,  who  are  alike  advocates 
for  the  strictest  construction  of  that  instrument,  and  for  a  thorough  amendment  of 
our  Constitution  of  State  Government  ? 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


177 


His  venerable  colleague,  said  Mr.  M.  had  successfully  repelled  other  prejudices 
which,  if  not  utterly  unfounded,  might  prove  of  fatal  influence  to  the  object  of  the 
Convention,  and  he  now  came  to  the  consideration  of  the  real  proposition  before  the 
Committee, 

The  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee  proposes  to  make  the  v/hite  popula- 
tion of  the  Commonwealth  exclusively  the  basis  of  the  apportionment  of  representa- 
tion in  the  House  of  Delegates.  It  is  moved  by  the  member  from  Culpeper,  to  rest 
such  apportionment  on  white  population  and  taxation  combined.  After  the  most  la- 
borious attention  to  all  the  arguments  as  well  of  the  mover  of  this  amendment,  as  of 
the  gentlemen  who  had  sustained  him,  Mr.  M.  said  he  was  at  a  loss  to  know  how  this 
combination  was  to  be  effected — in  v\'hat  proportions  population  and  taxation  were  to 
be  combined.  If  that  of  perfect  equality,  then  what  description  of  taxes  were  to  be 
balanced  against  the  rights  of  the  freemen  of  Virginia.''  Shall  one  of  the  compounds 
be  determined  by  taxing  all  the  property  of  every  citizen,  visible  and  invisible.?  To 
this,  almost  insuperable  objections  might  be  urged  ;  some  of  which  had  been  forcibly 
pointed  out,  by  the  member  from  jNorthampton,  (Mr.  Upshur.)  If  visible  property, 
only,  shall  be  taxed,  is  all  that  a  man  possesses  to  be  comprehen-ded,  moveable  and 
immoveable  ?  If  one  description  only,  or  a  portion  only  of  each,  which,  or  what  part, 
and  by  what  rule  or  ratio  of  numbers,  quality  or  of  value  ?  Is  it  practicable  to  form 
this  combined  basis,  and  to  impart  to  it,  the  simplicity,  the  stability,  to  say  nothing  of 
its  intrinsic  justice  or  propriety/,  which  should,  in  a  Constitution  of  Government,  de- 
signed to  be  perpetual,  form  the  ground-work  of  the  representation  of  the  people 

The  author  of  the  proposed  amendment,  since  he  designed  to  give  to  proptrty,  a 
certain  practicable  weight  in  the  Government,  would  more  readily  acconqjlish  his 
purpose  by  constituting  as  its  measure,  wealth  for  taxation  ;  the  thing  taxed  for  the 
tax  itself.  This  change  of  the  basis  of  representation,  in  terms,  would  not  alter  the 
principles  on  which  its  justice  and  propriety  rest,  and  both  parties  would  by  such  con- 
version, be  enabled  betts-r  to  comprehend  the  precise  end,  as  well  as  the  practicability 
of  the  proposed  amendment. 

For  the  sake  of  my  own  argument  at  least,  I  purpose  making  this  substitution  of 
wealth  itself,  for  that  which  is  its  measure,  in  any  equal  system  of  taxation.  Wealth! 
the  basis  of  representation  !  It  is  proposed,  indeed,  to  combine  it  with  numbers,  but 
the  quality  of  the  subject,  must  folio Vv^  it  through  every  possible  combination,  and 
what  is  true  of  it  as  a  simple,  may  be  affirmed  of  it  as  an  ingredient,  of  any  compound 
basis  of  representation,  of  which  it  may  become  an  el-ement. 

Was  wealth,  then,  ever  before  proposed  in  America,  except  in  South  Carolina,  to 
be  made  the  foundation  of  political  power  in  the  popular  branch  of  a  Government, 
professing  to  be  free  An  oligarchy  this  may  be,  open  to  all  bidders  for  power;  but 
if  not  an  oligarchy,  I  have  no  conception  of  the  import  of  the  term. 

And  why  prefer  wealth,  if  equality  of  right  be  disregarded  among  the  freemen  of 
Virginia 

In  savage  life,  mere  personal  qualities,  as  strength,  courage,  confer  distinction,  and 
not  without  reason.  The  term  in  our  language,  which  denotes  the  perfection  of  moral 
worth,  is  borrowed  from  latin  virtus,  which  originally  signified  strength,  that  quality 
of  man,  which  barbarians  esteem  tlie  first  of  virtues,  because  among  them,  the  most 
useful.  In  the  rudest  as  the  wisest  nations,  age  has  its  claims  to  veneration,  of  which 
my  feelings,  ir.  tbis  assembly,  hourly  remind  me.  To  wisdom,  all  men  yield  respect : 
and  as  society  grows  older,  birth  asserts  its  more  questionable  claims  to  cur  homage, 
and  learns  at  last,  to  back  them  by  authority.  Wealth,  comes,  last  of  all,  to  buy 
power  and  distinction,  and  if  I  must  cease  to  be  a  iTeeman,  'tis  the  very  last  domi- 
nion, to  which  I  will  ever  bow  my  neck.  If  I  must  choose  between  the  aristocracy 
of  birth  or  fortune,  I  do  not  hesitate  a  moment  which  to  prefer.  Had  I  not  better 
trust  my  liberty,  if  I  must  have  a  master,  to  the  descendant  of  honest  parents,  who 
may  be  presumed  to  have  reared  and  educated  their  ofFsj)rirtg  with  care  and  tender- 
ness, than  a  man,  I  do  not  knov.%  for  his  mere  riches  ?  If  the  latbep  be  obtained,  by 
sudden  acquisition,  or  by  secret  or  unknown  means,  I  should  think  it  incumbent  on 
their  possessor,  if  he  claimed  my  confidence,  and  much  more,  if  my  obedience,  to 
shew  that  he  himself  had  honestly  acquired  his  title. 

To  the  argument  of  my  friend  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Cooke)  that  wealtli  would  pro- 
tect itself,  the  gentleman  from  Northampton.  (iMr.  Upshur)  had  replied,  that  it  could 
do  so,  only  by  corruption,  by  the  employment  only,  of  the  basest  means.  And  shall 
representation  be  based  on  wealth.?  (Here  Mr.  Upshur  explained.)  Mr.  M.  said  he 
had  not  misunderstood  the  eloquent  member  from  Northampton,  though  he  could  not 
do  justice  to  his  former  lanq-uage,  nor  had  the  gentleman  himself  done  so,  in  his  ex- 
planation. If  unexceptionable  in  all  other  respects,  wealth  (Mr.  M.  said)  would  be 
found  in  all  countries,  too  fickle  a  basis  of  representation  for  a  distribution  of  politi- 
cal power,  designed  to  balance  the  interest  of  individuals,  or  of  distinct  portions  even 
of  the  same  community.  Individual  wealth  !  Who  can  fix  it?  He,  who  can  stop  the 
ever-revolving  wheel  of  fortune.    National  wealth  is  subject,  though  not  in  the  same 

23 


178 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


degree,  to  like  uncertainty.  Of  what  does  that  of  Virginia  consist  ?  Chiefly  of  lands 
and  slaves.  No  estimate  of  the  value  of  the  450,000  slaves  of  Virginia  accompanies 
the  Auditor's  Report.  The  lands  of  the  Commonwealth  were  valued  in  1617,  at 
206,000,000  of  dollars.  What  are  they  now  worth  ?  Half  that  sum  ?  He  had  care- 
fully sought,  throughout  the  Convention,  for  information  to  correct  the  results  of  his 
own  observation,  within  late  years,  as  to  the  change  of  the  value  of  lands  in  Virginia. 
After  all  his  enquiries,  he  believed  they  had  fallen  to  two-fifths,  of  their  former  esti- 
mated value ;  and  could  not,  now,  be  computed,  at  more  than  80,  or  at  most,  than  90 
millions.    Next,  as  to  slaves. 

A  gentleman  sitting  near  him,  had,  at  the  period  to  which  he  had  just  referred,  of 
the  passage  of  the  equalizing  land  law,  sold  85  slaves  in  families,  at  300  dollars  round  : 
He  had  been  assured  by  him,  and  by  other  gentlemen,  equally  well-informed,  from 
other  portions  of  the  Commonwealth,  that  150  dollars  for  each  slave,  taking  them  in 
families,  would  be  a  fair  price  at  the  present  moment.  This  description  of  labour, 
then,  has  fallen  one  half,  and  lands  more  than  a. half,  in  very  little  more  than  ten 
years.  In  the  estimate  of  the  last,  the  tables  supplied  by  the  Auditor,  comprehend- 
ed $26,500,000  for  city  and  town  lots;  chiefly,  for  the  value  of  those  at  Richmond, 
Petersburg,  Norfolk,  and  Fredericksburg  :  A  value  dependent  on  the  fluctuations  of 
domestic  and  foreign  trade.  What  was  once  its  extent  in  this  city,  the  metropolis  of 
the  Commonwealth,  we  all  remember.  What  it  is  now,  I  know  not;  since  commerce, 
that  inconstant  handmaid  of  fortune,  has  turned  her  helm  from  our  ports  to  the  fa- 
voured harbor  of  New-York.  Wealth  attracts  wealth.  Fortune  not  only  withdraws 
her  gifts  from  those  who  abuse,  but  from  those  who  fail  to  use  them  :  'taking  from 
those  who  have  little,  that  which  they  cannot  spare,  to  pour  it  into  the  lap  of  abun- 
dance. While  we  have  been  quarrelling  about  Internal  Improvement,  New-York  has 
swallowed  up  the  commerce  of  America.  Driven  from  us  by  our  unkindness,  it  has 
gone  where  it  was  invited  by  wiser  councils. 

There  are  fluctuations  of  the  value  of  property,  however,  which  no  wisdom  can 
elude  or  avert.  The  value  of  our  land  and  labor  depends  on  the  value  of  the  staple 
commodities  which  they  produce  ;  this  on  the  demand  for  them  at  home,  and  abroad, 
and  that  again  on  physical  and  moral  causes  v/hich  no  Constitution  of  Government, 
which  man  himself,  cannot  controul ;  on  the  seasons,  in  other  countries,  as  well  as 
our  own,  on  the  policy  of  other  nations,  on  peace,  on  the  varying  events  of  foreign 
war.  The  act  of  Congress  reducing  the  minimum  price  of  the  national  lands,  struck 
down,  at  a  blow,  the  value  of  every  landed  estate  in  Virginia.  The  tide  of  wealth 
which  set  in  from  Europe  to  America  during  the  wars  of  the  French  revolution,  roll- 
ed back  at  the  general  peace  which  succeeded  our  last  contest  with  Great  Britain. 

If  this  uncertainty  of  wealth  operated  uniformly,  on  all  the  interests  of  our  Com- 
monwealth, their  relative  proportion  would  not  be  sensibly  disturbed  by  it.  Such, 
however,  is  not  its  effect.  The  cotton,  the  tobacco,  the  grain,  and  even  the  grazing 
interest,  are  affected,  in  different  degrees,  by  the  same  agents  :  and,  although  the 
natural  tendency  of  the  profits  of  stock,  the  rent  of  land  and  the  wages  of  labour,  in 
the  same  country,  is  to  one  level,  it  requires  time  to  still  the  successive  agitations  of 
their  varying  values.  In  the  interim,  new  causes  are  continually  arising  to  delay 
their  subsidence  to  one  common  level;  and  this  principle,  the  truth  of  which  is  un- 
questioned, though  constantly  operating,  may  never  accomplish  its  end. 

But  had  wealth  the  necessary  stability  to  serve  the  purpose  of  the  proposed  amend- 
ment, is  taxation  in  any  known  system,  a  just  measure  of  that  wealth  ? 

Taxation  is  the  instrument,  by  which  legislation  draws  from  the  private  revenue  of 
each  citizen,  his  fair  proportion  of  the  public  expenditure.  It  should  be  proportioned 
to  his  abilitj'  to  pay  it.  It  should,  therefore,  be  drawn  from  his  income,  and  not  from 
his  capital,  except  with  a  view  that  his  income  shall  supply  the  call.  His  income 
cannot  be  reached,  if  at  all,  by  expedient  means  ;  and  wisdom  suggests  the  propriety 
of  taxing  his  expenditure,  which  usuall}^  bears  a  certain  proportion  to  his  income. 

The  constitutional  power  of  another  Government  restrains  the  application  of  these 
principles  to  taxation  ni  Virginia,  under  the  authority  of  the  State;  and,  in  other  re- 
spects, diversifies  the  action  of  our  local  system  of  public  revenue. 

The  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  (Mr.  Green)  has  not  told  us  how  he  means  to  com- 
bine the  taxes  of  the  people,  with  their  numbers,  in  his  compound  basis  of  represen- 
tation. Will  he  add  the  annual  sum  of  the  present  taxes,  to  the  numbers  of  the  peo- 
ple, and  dividing  the  aggregate  of  men  and  dollars,  settle  the  value,  at  which  a  legal 
voter  in  any  district  may  be  computed  ?  A  friend  has  informed  me  that  such  is  to 
constitute  a  part  of  the  details  of  the  proposed  compound  basis,  and  that  the  value  of 
each  vote  in  the  Commonwealth,  will  be  rated  at  about  fifty-eight  cents  !  Or  if  this 
shall  shock  the  ears  of  the  Convention,  or  the  sense  of  the  people,  who  may  set  a 
higher  estimate  on  their  rights,  will  gentlemen  adopt  what  in  practice,  will  lead  to  a 
similar  result,  the  plan  of  South  Carolina;  and  distribute  the  territory  of  this  Com- 
monwealth into  two  descriptions  of  election  districts^  one  in  reference  to  free  white 
population,  the  otherj  to  taxation  as  it  now  exists 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONTENTION. 


179 


[Mr.  Green  explained,  but  in  so  low  a  tone  of  voice,  that  the  reporter  could  not 
catch  his  language.] 

Mr.  Mercer  regretted  that  he  had  been  unable  to  hear  distinctly  the  explanation  of 
the  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  but  from  the  few  words  wliich  had  reached  him,  he 
inferred  it  to  be  his  intention  to  adopt  the  system  of  South  Carolina,  and  to  divide  the 
State  into  two  sorts  of  election  districts. 

[Mr.  Green  having  changed  his  seat  in  the  Hall,  again  rose  for  explanation.  He  ex- 
plained it  to  be  his  plan  to  take  the  white  population  of  the  State  and  the  population 
of  each  county.  Apply  the  rule.  Population  gives  to  representation,  in  proportion 
to  numbers.  See  the  number  of  representatives  required.  In  lilve  manner,  take  the 
whole  taxes  of  the  State,  and  those  of  each  county,  if  the  taxes  give  the  like  rule  for 
the  county,  add  them  together,  and  that  is  the  rule.] 

Mr.  M.  thought  this  plan  would  only  serve  to  increase  the  difficulty.  To  what 
portion  of  a  representative  will  Warwick  with  her  annual  taxes  at  $  500,  and  her 
white  population  of  620  persons,  be  entitled  ?  The  objection  still  applies,  notwith- 
standing the  explanation  that  a  freeholder,  or  lawful  voter  of  the  Commonwealth, 
will  be  weighed  in  the  same  scales,  with  the  taxes,  he  may  chance  to  contribute  to 
the  wants  or  the  caprice  of  the  Legislature,  and  find  himself  balanced  against  the 
fraction  of  a  single  dollar. 

Were  a  submission  to  such  degradation,  all  that  was  required  by  this  in  -  enious  po- 
litical composition  of  men  and  money,  it  would  be  possible,  though  it  might  be  diffi- 
cult to  endure  it  patiently.  But,  is  it  possible  to  derive,  from  such  materials,  any  equi- 
table or  stable  proportion,  or  balance  of  political  power,  between  the  different  sections, 
or  interests,  as  they  are  called,  of  this  Commonwealth,  or,  indeed,  of  any  other,  with 
which  we  are  acquainted I  know  its  operation  in  South  Carolina,  said  Mr.  M.  only 
so  far  as  its  details  are  disclosed  in  her  Constitution.  Let  us  turn  to  it.  By  this,  it  is 
provided,  that  sixty-two  members  of  the  more  numerous,  I  will  call  it  ])o]mlar  branch 
of  her  Legislature,  shall  be  distributed  among  her  pre-existing  election  districts,  in 
number  forty-four,  from  reference  to  their  white  inhabitants;  and  sixty-two  among 
the  same  districts,  from  leference  to  the  amount  of  all  taxes  raised  by  the  Legislature, 
ichether  direct  ar  indirect,  or  of  whatever  species,  paid  in  each,  deducting  therefrom,  all 
taxes  paid  on  account  of  property,  held  in  any  other  district,  and  adding  thereto,  all 
taxes,  elsewhere  paid,  on  account  of  property  held  in  such  district."  To  give  effect  to 
this  principle  of  representation,  it  is  farther  provided,  that  there  shall  be  an  enumera- 
tion of  the  people  once  in  every  ten  years,  and  that,  in  every  apportionment  of  repre- 
sentation, which  shall  take  place,  after  the  first,  "  the  amount  of  taxes  shall  be  esti- 
mated from  the  average  of  the  ten  preceding  years:"  '•  and  the  first  apportionment 
shall  be  founded  on  the  tax  of  the  preceding  year,  excluding  from  the  amount  there- 
of, the  whole  produce  of  the  tax  on  sales  at  public  auction." 

He  had  attended,  Mr.  M.  said,  the  more  closely,  to  these  provisions,  in  order  to  as- 
certain, what  portion  to  a  House  of  one  hundred  and  twenty-four  members,  would 
fall  to  the  share  of  the  city  of  Charleston.  This  city  had,  of  the  former  House  of 
Representatives  of  the  State,  including  the  parishes  of  St.  Philips'  and  St.  Michael's, 
fifteen  members  out  of  one  hundred  and  twenty-four.  The  a,uction  duties  of  South 
Carolina,  tliere  can  be  but  little  doubt,  are  paid  chiefly,  if  not  solety,  in  Charleston. 
They  were  not  to  be  computed  at  all,  in  the  first  apportionment  of  representation, 
that  of  1810 ;  but  the  very  exception,  as  well  as  the  antecedent  language  of  her  Con- 
stitution, shews  that  they  were  to  be  reckoned,  in  every  subsequent  apportionment, 
founded  on  the  taxes  of  the  preceding  ten  years.  They  must  have  been  computed, 
therefore,  in  1820.  The  present  representation  of  this  city,  in  the  House  of  Repre- 
sentatives of  South  Carolina ,  I  have  yet  to  learn ;  but  if  any  part  of  it  is  founded  on 
these  auction  duties,  since  her  example  is  invoked  to  the  aid  of  the  amendment,  in 
discussion,  I  ask  if  she  is  entitled  to  it  on  any  principle  which  would  not  give  to  the 
citizens  of  Philadelphia,  or  New  York,  a  like  claim  to  representation,  over  and  above 
their  fair  proportion  to  members  in  the  Legislatures  of  their  respective  States.^  The 
extent  of  the  auction  duties  annually  collected  in  Charleston,  is  unknoAvn  to  me  :  but 
the  auction  duties  of  Philadelphia,  I  believe,  constitute  a  third  of  the  entire  revenue 
of  Pennsylvania,  whose  State  Government  is  sustained  without  any  other  tax  what- 
ever, except  upon  the  dividends  of  her  banks,  and  on  collateral  inheritances,  devises 
and  bequests.  These  taxes,  together  with  her  share  of  the  annual  dividends,  accruing 
on  her  several  road,  bridge,  canal,  and  bank  stocks,  make  up  the  sum  total  of  the 
public  income,  applied  to  the  disbursements  of  a  State  Government,  where  neither  a 
land  nor  a  poll  tax  exists.    More  than  a  moiety  of  it  arises  in  Philadelphia. 

Similar  views  apply  to  New  York.  The  auction  duties  levied  in  her  great  empo- 
rimir,  largely  exceed  a  moiety  of  our  State  revenue,  and  are  established  and  set  apart 
for  a  special  purpose,  by  an  express  provision  of  her  Constitution. 

The  only  tax  we  have  in  Virginia,  analogous  to  this,  is  one  on  merchants'  licenses; 
and  both  have  a  close  affinity,  in  their  principles  and  operation,  to  the  impost  duties 
of  the  United  States.    They  are  all  levied  at  the  marts  of  commerce, — all  chargeable 


180 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


upon  the  commodities  which  enter  into  that  commerce.  They  are,  consequently,  all 
p.-iid,  neither  by  the  importer  nor  the  vender, — neither  by  the  auctioneer  nor  the  mer- 
chant,— who  are  but  the  collectors  of  the  tax,  and  charge  a  profit  on  their  labour. 
They  are  all  paid,  in  fine,  by  the  consumer,  who,  for  the  opportunity  of  paying 
them,  this  amendment  would  require  of  him  to  surrender,  not  only  the  price  in  mo- 
ney of  the  articles  which  he  purchased,  but  a  most  undue  and  enormous  advance  of 
political  power,  to  his  superiors,  the  tax-paying  merchant  and  auctioneer.  Apply  this 
amendment  to  the  condition  of  Pennsylvania  and  New  York,  and  their  chief  cities 
would  govern  those  States.  These  new  heads  of  a  monied  aristocrac}^,  the  auctioneers, 
who  pay,  by  far,  the  largest  share  of  the  taxes  to  the  State,  would,  in  the  several  State 
Governments,  flir  out-rank  the  regular  merchant,  whose  principal  dues  pass  through 
the  Collectors  of  the  Customs,  to  the  Treasury  of  the  Federal  Government;  and, 
consequently,  neither  augment  his  own  political  power,  nor  that  of  his  neighbours, 
however  large  they  may  be,  and  actually  are. 

If  tlie  payment  of  a  tax,  gives  a  right  to  a  proportionate  share  of  the  power  which 
levies  it,  my  constituents  have  a  fair  claim  to  representation  in  the  Legislatures  of 
New  York  and  Pennsj'^lvania,  since  they  pay  no  sm.all  share  of  these  auction  duties. 

Sir,  said  Mr.  M.  the  salt  tax  of  New  York,  a  State  excise,  is  also  set  apart,  by  her 
Constitution,  for  a  special  purpose.  Being  twelve  and  a  half  cents  on  the  bushel,  and 
the  quantity  made,  about  1,200,000  bushels,  it  does  not  fall  short  of  $  120,000  per  an- 
num, and  being  levied  and  collected  on  Lake  Onondaga,  near  the  town  of  Salina,  it 
should  entitle  the  inhabitants  of  that  vicinity,  to  a  very  large  portion 'of  the  political 
power  of  that  great  and  flourishing  State. 

During  the  last  war,  we  endeavoured  to  levy  a  similar  tax  in  the  counties  of  Wash- 
ington and  Kanawha;  but  with  less  success.  Should  the  political  weight  of  our 
several  counties,  be  hereafter  dependent  on  the  amount  of  taxes  they  may  severally 
pay,  as  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper  proposes,  whatever  the  salt-makers  may  think 
of  the  renewal  of  that  tax,  the  politicians  and  the  people  of  those  counties,  might 
over-rule  these  objections,  for  the  sake  of  governing  the  rest  of  the  Commonwealth, 
by  this  newly-invented  political  power. 

It  must  now  be  apparent,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  the  district  in  which  a  particular  tax 
is  collected,  may  not  be  the  district  of  the  people  by  whom  it  is  paid,  and  consequently 
that  nothing  would  be  more  absurd  than  to  rest  the  apportionment  of  political  power 
on  any  such  basis. 

Indeed,  the  tax  which  is  paid  on  a  particular  subject  will  have  its  locality,  if  I  may 
be  allowed  the  expression,  determined,  altogether,  by  the  mode  in  which  it  is  levied. 
The  Supreme  Court  of  the  United  States  has  defined  a  tax  upon  carriages,  to  be  a  tax 
on  expenditure,  and  therefore  an  indirect  tax,  and  to  be  the  same  in  character,  whe- 
ther paid  by  the  maker  or  the  user  of  the  carriage.  Now,  the  maker  and  the  user 
may  live  in  the  same  Commonwealth  many  miles  apart.  If,  hov\^ever,  tlie  tax  be  paid 
by  the  maker,  he  vv^ould  have  credit  for  it;  if  by  the  user,  it  would  inure  to  his  bene- 
fit. To  whom  should  the  right  of  suffrage  attach  If  it  attach  to  neither,  it  would 
seem  to  vest  in  the  vehicle  itself,  and  to  suggest  a  similar  difficulty  to  that  propounded 
by  Dr.  Franklin,  who,  commenting  on  the  case  of  a  man,  whose  right  to  vote  depend- 
ed on  the  tax  which  he  had  paid  on  his  ass,  inquired  after  the  death  of  the  animal, 
and  the  consequent  loss  of  the  vote  of  his  owner,  whether  the  vote  had  been  in  the 
ass  or  the  man. 

It  is  impossible,  Mr.  Chairman,  said  Mr.  M.  to  judge  how  far  the  rule  of  appor- 
tionment, adopted  by  Soutli  Carolina,  would  suit  our  condition,  without  knowing  how 
it  operates  on  her  own.  What  is  the  character  and  operation  of  her  system  of  taxa- 
tion 

A  similar  rule  is  said  to  prevail  in  the  apportionment  of  the  Senators  of  Massachu- 
setts and  New  Hampshire,  under  their  respective  State  Constitutions.  He  had  been 
informed,  that  no  State  tax  had  been  levied  in  Massachusetts  for  seven  years  past, 
and  he  tliought  it  highly  probable  that  the  same  state  "of  affairs,  in  the  frugal  Com- 
monwealth of  New  Hampshire,  would  prevent  a  rule  of  apportionment,  however  of- 
fensive in  theory,  from  exciting  the  public  indignation.  A  rule,  wholly  inoperative, 
would  be  obnoxious  to  no  one. 

It  can  be  readily  perceived,  that  if  applied  to  Pennsylvania,  or  New  York,  or  even 
to  Maryland,  it  would  so  far  from  restraining  the  political  influence  of  the  chief  cities 
of  tiiese  States,  to  a  measure  short  of  the  just  proportion  of  the  number  of  their  citi- 
zens in  the  scale  of  the  population  of  their  respective  States,  it  would  enable  those 
cities  by  a  combination  of  numbers  and  wealth  to  govern,  without  any  control,  beyond 
their  corporation  limits.  And  yet,  this  is  one  of  the  very  evils  against  which  the 
member  from  Chesterfield,  the  eloquent  advocate  of  the  amendment,  is  desirous  to 
guard  this  Commonwealth  :  A  Commonwealth,  whose  territory  is  so  intersected  by 
numerous  rivers,  that  an  overgrown  market  is  not  likely  to  spring  up  in  its  bosom. 

Mr.  M.  said,  he  had  considered  these  imperfections  of  the  basis  of  representation, 
submitted  by  the  amendment,  arising  from  the  nature  of  taxation,  considered  as  an 


pebates  of  the  coxvention. 


181 


instrument  for  raising  anv  given  revenue  required  by  the  exigencies  of  tlie  Common- 
wealth. 

But  if  these  exigencies  shall  vary  between  different  periods  of  time,  how  unstable 
is  this  basis,  and  especially  if  tlie  pressm-e  of  the  pubhc  burthens  shall  grow  more  and 
more  unequal,  as  they  grow  or  decline  in  weight. 

In  -tiarvland  there  is  no  State  tax  :  the  expenses  of  her  Government  are  defrayed 
out  of  the  income  of  a  pubhc  capital  already  acquired.  The  revenue  of  the  two 
great  canals  of  New  York,  the  work  of  but  a  few  ^-ears,  reaches  already  near  a  mil- 
lion of  dollars,  and  will  shortlv  release  that  Commonwealth,  which  has  now  neither 
a  land  nor  a  poU  tax,  from  the  necessity  of  imposing  any  tax  whatever  on  her 
citizens. 

Such  a  principle  of  representation,  as  that,  for  which  our  opponents  contend,  would 
induce,  under  such  circumstances,  the  imposition  and  distribution  of  taxes  for  the 
sake  of  power  merely.  On  the  plan  of  Carolina,  half  the  pohtical  power  of  tlie  State 
might  be  secured  by  'the  exercise  of  very  httie  ingenuity,  to  a  mmority  of  the  election 
districts,  and  with  it  the  means  of  preserving  it  iorever  in  the  same  hands. 

We  have  sought  as  yet  in  vain  to  secure  fr'om  misapphcation,  and  to  prescribe  the 
use  of  the  two  great  funds  of  the  Commonwealth.  If  the  new  Consti'.ution  shall  be 
silent  on  this  subject,  what  will  prevent  a  majority  of  a  future  Legislature  from  appl}'- 
ing  them  to  reduce  the  pressure  of  the  taxes  on  one  portion  of  the  Commonwealth, 
with  a  view  to  its  Government  in  all  other  respects,  by  a  minority  of  tlie  people,  or 
those  who  lead  such  minority  P  Those  funds  are  abundantly  sufficient  for  deny  such 
purpose,  and  the  amendment,  if  adopted,  will  furnish  the  opportunity  so  to  abuse 
them, 

Not  only  would  every  reduction  of  the  taxes  which  affected  their  relative  pressure 
affect  the  proposed  apportionment  of  representation,  but  every  augmentation  of 
them. 

In  this  view  of  the  subject  a  new  principle  requires  to  be  developed.  A  consider- 
able augmentation  of  revenue  cannot  often  be  effected  without  increasing  particular 
taxes  on  those  subjects  already  taxed,  which  will  bear  augmentation,  nor  sometimes, 
without  adding  new  subjects  to  the  existing  hst  of  taxes. 

War  inevitably  gives  rise  to  both  these  necessities,  by  reducing  or  suspending  some 
branches  of  private  revenue,  and  supplying  others,  before  unused  or  unknown. 

The  burthen  of  sustaining  a  foreign  war,  it  is  true,  has  been  cast  by  the  Federal 
Constitution  upon  another  Government ;  but  it  cannot  be  forgotten,  by  any  member 
of  this  Convention,  that  it  had  been  found  necessar}'  to  double  the  revenue, of  the 
Commonwealth  during  the  late  war,  and  to  incur  a  considerable  debt  for  its  defence, 
part  of  which  remains  yet  unpaid  Can  any  man  venture  to  predict,  that  a  similar 
necessity  will  not  again  arise  .'  Should  he  do  so,  would  this  Committee  confide  in  the 
prediction  :  and  found  a  provision  in  om-  Constitution  upon  it  ?  No  practical  States- 
man wiU  believe  that  to  be  impossible  which  has  actually  happened,  or  reject  the 
council  which  would  provide  for  its  recurrence. 

Should  an  attempt  be  made  to  remedy  the  inequalitv  of  taxation,  arisiiio-  from  war, 
or  national  distress,  by  averaging  with  a  view  to  future  representation,  the  taxes  of  a 
given  period,  according  to  the  scheme  of  South  Carolina :  the  effect  of  any  war 
which  varies  the  proportions  of  the  public  burthens,  borne  by  the  citizens  of  tlie  same 
Commonwealth,  will  subsist  in  their  representation,  long  alter  peace  shall  have  been 
restored,  and  the  inequality  shall  have  ceased. 

A  review  of  our  own  system  of  taxation,  both  before  and  since  the  formation  of  our 
present  Constitution,  would  supply  all  the  facts  necessary  to  sustain  the  positions  I 
have  assumed. 

Prior  to  the  vrax  of  1758,  called  in  Europe  the  Silesian  war,  from  its  object,  and  the 
seven  years  war,  from  its  duration,  and  in  America,  tlie  French  war,  from  the  foe 
whom  it  brought  upon  the  western  frontier  of  this  Commonwealth,  the  only  revenue 
of  Virginia  had  been  derived  from  a  poll  tax.  The  first  land  tax  was  laid  in  1777,  and 
was  an  ad  valorem  tax,  the  same  in  amount  with  that  upon  slaves — and  these  were 
then  the  only  subjects  of  taxation.  To  these,  before  the  last  war,  had  been  added  taxes 
on  horses,  ordinaries,  merchants'  licenses,  and  law  process. 

'  The  la^t  war  not  only  required  a  large  augmentation  of  the  taxes,  on  all  these  sub- 
jects, but  the  addition  of  a  number  which  I  Vv-iil  not  fatigue  the  Committee  by  enume- 
rating. Since  the  war  the  extraordinary  subjects  of  taxation,  have  been  released,  but 
the  pre-existing  proportions  of  tax  on  the  old  subjects  has  not  been  restored.  Allow 
me  briefly  to  run  over  these  changes  with  the  date  of  their  occurrence.  In  1S09  the 
land  tcLX  was  48  cents  on  the  hundred  dollars,  or  supposed  value,  according  to  the 
act  of  1737.  From  1816  to  1S19  the  land  tax  was  75  cents  on  the  hundred  dollars.  In 
18.20  it  was  reduced  by  the  new  equalizing  land  law,  the  price  paid  by  the  "West,  for 
equahzing  the  representation  of  the  Senate,  to  12h  cents  for  every  hundred  dollars  of 
actually  assessed  value.  In  1821  it  was  brought  down  to  9  cents  upon  the  same  esti- 
mate   at  which  it  remained  tiU  the  last  year,  when  it  was  again  reduced  to  8  cents, 


182 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


more  than  fifty  per  cent  of  the  tax  of  1820,  having  been  struck  off  in  eight  years,  and 
the  land  tax  of  1829  made  to  bear  to  the  land  tax  prior  to  the  last  equahzing  land  law 
an  apparent  ratio  of  one  only,  to  more  than  9. 

In  1809,  before  the  war,  the  tax  on  slaves  above  twelve  years  of  age  was  44  cents  ; 
in  1815  it  was  raised  by  the  war  to  80  cents,  in  1819  reduced  to  70  cents,  in  1821  to 
53  cents,  in  1828  to  47  cents,  and  the  last  reduction  brought  it  down  to  40  cents,  or  4 
cents  less  than  its  amount  prior  to  the  war. 

The  tax  on  horses  for  several  years  prior  to  the  last  war  was  8  cents.  In  1815  it 
mounted  up  to  20  cents.  In  1819  it  was  18  cents  ;  in  1821, 13^  cents  ;  in  1823, 12  cents, 
and  it  is  now  10  cents,  or  twenty-five  per  cent,  more  than  it  was  prior  to  the  war. 

The  war  besides  adding  more  than  forty  specific  taxes  to  the  three  I  have  enume- 
rated, raised  essentially  the  proportions  between  those  of  ordinary  use. 

It  greatly  increased  the  ratio  of  the  land  and  horse  tax  to  the  slave  tax.  The  rela- 
tive product  of  the  taxes  on  lands,  slaves  and  horses  in  1809,  was  141,000;  90,000,  and 
38,000  respectively.  In  1816,  238,000;  161,000,  and  40,000.  In  1829,  175,000;  97,000, 
and  33,000  respectively.  When  the  revenue  from  these  three  subjects  stood  highest, 
that  is,  after  the  equalizing  law  took  effect  in  1819,  their  proportions  were  274,000 ; 
163,000,  and  $  52,000.  Their  proportions  in  the  last  year  were  175,000;  97,000,  and 
$33,000. 

The  land  tax,  it  will  be  seen,  has  been  gaining  on  the  amount  of  the  slave  tax  since 
1809.  Since  when  $  34,000  has  been  added  to  the  gross  amount  of  the  land  tax,  and 
$7,000  to  the  amount  of  the  slave  tax. 

While  these  variations  in  the  total  amount  of  the'  taxes  levied  on  the  old  subjects  of 
taxation,  have  not  been  strongly  marked,  except  during  the  continuance  of  war,  the 
proportion  paid  by  the  several  counties  of  the  State  have  been  more  diversified. 

The  taxes  of  Loudoun  paid  into  the  State  Treasurjr,  in  1815,  amounted  to  the  sum 
of  $  12,885,  Those  of  the  county  of  Warwick  to  <|  1,285,  or  very  near  a  tenth  part 
of  that  amount.  In  each  of  the  years  of  1823  and  1824,  Warwick  paid  only  $500 
and  Loiidoun  $9,500.  In  the  last  year,  V/arwick  paid  $  526,  and  Loudoun  .$  10,507. 
Thus  the  proportion  of  taxes  actually  paid  into  the  Treasury,  by  these  counties  which 
have,  notwithstanding,  an  equal  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  was,  in 
1815,  ten  to  one  ;  and  is,  now,  very  near  twenty  to  one.  The  proportion  having  vari- 
ed in  the  ratio  of  very  near  two  to  one. 

During  the  last  war,  nearly  fifty  specific  taxes  were  added  to  three  subjects  of  ordi- 
nary State  revenue.  Among  the  former  were  excises  on  salt,  iron,  lead  and  manu- 
factured tobacco,  objects  all  of  limited  production,  and  while  consumed  every  where, 
taxed  only  where  made. 

They  suggest  one  view  of  this  subject  which  ought  not  to  be  omitted.  It  is  that  by 
resting  the  representation  of  the  people  of  this  Commonwealth  on  the  basis  of  taxa 
tion  and  numbers,  we  place  their  relative  political  power  over  the  operations  of  their 
own  State  Government,  under  the  control  of  the  Congress  of  the  United  States. 

To  develope  this  argument,  it  is  necessary  to  refer  to  the  Federal  Constitution  which 
gives  to  the  National  Legislature  exclusively,  the  power  of  imposing  duties  on  foreign 
imports,  and  a  concurrent  authority  with  the  several  States  to  tax  every  thing  else 
within  their  limits. 

Should  Congress  prohibit  public  auctions  of  foreign  goods,  as  they  have  been  earnest- 
ly entreated  to  do  by  the  resident  merchants  of  all  our  great  cities,  what  would  become 
of  the  revenue  of  New- York,  Pennsylvania,  and  South  Carolina,  from  this  source.'' 
And  should  the  revenue  disappear,  what  of  that  portion  of  the  representation  of 
Charleston  derived  from  the  auction  tax  ?  May  it  not  be  said  that  those  States  who 
tax  a  particular  mode  of  selling  fox-eign  commodities  immediately  after  they  are  land- 
ed, while  they  are  expressly  debarred  from  taxing  their  importation,  trench  more  di- 
rectly on  the  powers  of  the  Federal  Government  than  that  Government  has  done, 
upon  the  natural  distribution  of  labour  and  capital  v/ithin  the  several  States  by  the 
imposition  of  a  tariff  for  the  encouragement  of  domestic  manufactures? 

Nor  is  it  the  direct  action  of  the  fiscal  regulations  of  the  United  States,  in  particu- 
lar branches  of  State  revenue,  to  which  1  singly  allude:  the  whole  system  of  federal 
taxation  exerts  an  indirect  but  constant  control  overall  the  subjects  which  a  State  can 
tax.  Were  the  United  States,  for  example,  to  repeal  the  20  cent  duty  on  salt,  what 
would  become  of  New- York  excise  on  that  commodity,  an  excise  which  enhances  its 
price,  not  only  to  the  people  of  that  State,  but  of  the  Western  counties  of  Pennsylva- 
nia and  Virginia  ? 

I  trust,  said  Mr.  M.  that  I  need  not  adjure  the  Committee  to  exclude,  if  practica- 
ble, the  action  of  the  General  Government,  whether  direct  or  indirect,  on  the  repre- 
sentation of  the  people  of  Virginia  in  the  Legislative  Department  of  their  State  Gov- 
ernment. 

Had  such  a  basis  of  representation  obtained  in  the  Federal  Legislature,  in  lieu  of 
federal  numbers,  what  now  would  be  the  relative  power  of  New- York,  to  the  rest  of 
the  Union;  and  of  the  city  of  New- York  to  the  rest  of  that  great  commercial  State. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


183 


The  duties  there  paid  would  overturn  every  just  balance  of  political  power,  and  over- 
whelm, in  the  vortex  of  a  monied  aristocracy,  the  liberty  and  happiness,  not  of  that 
city  only,  but  of  the  whole  Union. 

Before  Mr.  M.  concluded  his  remarks,  the  Committee  rose,  and  the  House  adjourn- 
ed to  meet  to-morrow,  at  11  o'clock. 


THURSDAY,  November  5,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  eleven  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev. 
Mr.  Lee  of  the  Episcopal  Church. 
Mr.  Mercer  resumed: 

Having  endeavoured,  with  what  success  it  is  for  the  Committee  to  determine,  to 
shew  that  the  basis  of  representation  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  (Mr. 
Green,)  if  practicable,  is  unstable,  unjust,  and  inexpedient,  1  beg  leave  to  recur  to  the 
original  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  in  order  to  demonstrate  that  it  founds 
the  representation  of  the  people,  on  its  only  proper  basis. 

This  course  I  deem  the  more  necessary,  since  the  friends  of  the  amendment  have 
sought  to  sustain  it,  rather  by  opposing  the  basis  contained  in  the  resolution,  than  by' 
enforcing  the  justice,  or  expediency  of  the  amendment  itself.  Their  reasoning  has 
shewn,  if  it  has  proved  any  thing,  that  the  entire  slave  population  of  the  State,  or 
three-fifths  of  it  at  least,  should  be  computed  in  any  new  apportionment  of  represen- 
tation which  shall  be  made. 

The  resolution  asserts,  that  this  apportionment  should  have  reference  exclusively  to 
the  numbers  of  the  free  white  population  of  the  Commonwealth.* 

Referring  to  free  white  population,  alone,  the  Legislative  Committee  have  design- 
ed to  reject  any  computation  whatever  of  slaves.  Although  no  gentleman  has  so  far 
offended  the  public  sentiment'-in  terms,  as  absolutely  to  confound  slaves  with  freemen,, 
yet  in  their  arguments,  in  favour  of  a  compound  basis,  they  have  laid  great  stress 
on  the  protection  wliich  a  representation  of  slaves  would  afford  to  this  species  of  pro- 
perty. 

The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  (Mr.  Leigh,)  has  gone  so  far  as  to  urge  the  com- 
putation of  the  slave  population,  in  whole  or  in  part,  on  grounds  of  authority,  of  jus- 
tice, and  of  expediency. 

His  leading  authority  is  deduced  from  the  articles  of  "  Confederation  and  perpetual 
Union"  among  the  States,  which  gave  place  to  the  present  Constitution  of  the  United 
States,  wherein,  three-fifths  of  the  slave  population  are  added  to  the  white,  to  compose 
a  standard  of  direct  taxation  and  representation. 

One  of  my  purposes  is  to  shew  that  these  authorities  are  inconclusive  in  themselves, 
or  inapplicable  to  the  present  question. 

The  honourable  member  insisted  on  a  former  occasion,  that  the  articles  of  Confed- 
eration did  actually  authorise  a  computation  of  three-fifths  of  the  slave  population  of 
the  South.  Had  this  been  true,  it  would  not  have  warranted  the  use  of  the  fact  as  an 
authority  in  fixing  the  basis  of  representation  in  the  Constitution  of  Virginia.  The 
articles  of  Confederation  formed  a  compact,  not  between  individuals,  but  sovereign 
States,  who  regarded  themselves  as  mutually  independent  of  each  other.  This  com- 
pact, like  a  treaty,  could  be  ratified,  only  by  the  express  assent  of  all  the  parties  to  it; 
which  was  not  obtained,  until  the  accession  of  Maryland,  in  March,  1781.  In  the 
Congress,  which  that  compact  provided,  for  the  exercise  of  the  authority  of  the  Uni- 
ted States,  perfect  equality  of  power  subsisted  among  the  States.  The  sense  of  a  part 
indeed,  was  to  govern  the  whole  body,  but  this  sense  was  taken  by  the  votes,  not  of 
individuals,  (any  one,  or  several  of  whom,  might  represent  a  State)  but  of  States, 
each  State  having  one  vote  and  one  only.  As  the  articles  of  Confederation  could  be 
ratified,  so,  they  could  be  altered,  or  amended,  only  by  the  concurrent  assent  of  all 
the  States  who  were  parties  to  them. 

No  rule  of  pecuniary  contribution,  in  such  a  Government,  for  the  power  to  tax  did 
not  exist,  could  therefore,  have  the  remotest  relation  to  any  basis  of  representation 
whatever.  The  States  were  expected  to  contribute  to  the  common  expenditure  ac- 
cording to  their  respective  ability.  Their  representation  was  equal.  The  8th  of 
those  articles,  provided  a  common  treasury,  and  required  it  to  be  supplied,  by  the 
several  States,  in  proportion  to  the  estimated  value  of  all  the  lands  granted  in  each 
State,  with  the  buildings  and  improvements  upon  them.  Until  1781,  however,  this 
like  all  the  other  articles  of  Confederation,  had  no  validity  whatever. 

In  the  interim,  the  revolutionary  Government  sustained  itself,  by  loans,  and  by  the 
issue  of  paper  money,  till  from  the  excessive  issue  of  tliis  paper,  it  lost  all  value,  and 
ceased  at  length  to  circulate. 


184 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


The  authors  of  the  Confederation  discovered,  that  they  had  not  the  means  of  as- 
certaining the  vahae  of  all  the  real  property  of  the  several  States.  Adam  Smith, 
had  informed  them,  that  it  took  the  Emperor  of  Germany,  moue  than  half  a  century, 
to  complete  a  survey,  of  one  only  of  the  States  of  his  dominions.  The'  present 
day  Avould  add  to  this  information  the  vast  time  consumed  in  the  late  triangular 
surveys  of  France  and  England.  In  Virginia,  alone,  it  would  then  have  taken  seve- 
ral years,  to  have  gone,  with  tolerable  accuracy,  through  such  an  assessment  as  the 
8th  article  of  Confederation  demanded.  Amidst  these  embarrassments,  and  the 
alarm  of  national  bankruptcy,  it  was  proposed  to  substitute,  as  the  standard  of  fis- 
cal contribution  by  the  States,  a  computation  of  the  numbers  of  the  people,  for  the 
actual  valuation  of  all  their  estates.  A  new  difficulty  here  arose,  as  to  the  proper 
subjects  of  such  an  enumeration.  Whether  it  should  be  restricted  to  the  free  w^hite 
population  alone,  of  the  several  States,  or  comprehend  the  slaves  also.''  The  object 
being  to  measure  the  ability  to  pay,  the  South,  naturally  enough  contended,  and  with 
truth,  that  their  slaves  were  not  regarded  in  their  institutions  of  civil  polity,  as  per- 
sons, but  as  property  ;  and  ought  not  to  be  enumerated.  The  North  insisted  on  the 
other  hand,  that  whether  persons,  or  property  ,  they  subserved  the  end  of  other  labour, 
and  adding  to  the  wealth  of  the  community,  should  be  counted  in  that  estimate  of  the 
relative  ability  of  the  States,  to  contribute  to  the  common  treasury,  of  which  it  was 
proposed  to  make  numbers  the  common  measure.  The  discussion  of  this  subject,  in 
the  Conoress  of  the  Confederacy,  terminated  in  a  vote  to  recommend  it  to  the  seve- 
ral States,  to  amend  the  articles  of  Confederation,  by  substituting,  for  the  rule  of  ap- 
portionment, therein  provided  for  revenue  only,  a  triennial  enumeration  of  the  whole 
number  of  white,  and  other  free  citizens,  with  three-fifths  of  ail  other  persons,  ex- 
cept Indians,  not  taxed. 

In  the  decision  on  this  recommendation,  in  April,  1783,  it  was  carried  by  ten  votes 
out  of  twelve  :  Tilhode  Island  being  opposed  to  it ;  New  York  equally  divided,  Mr. 
Floyd  voting  for  it,  and  Mr.  Hamilton  against  it ;  and  Georgia  being  absent.  I  am 
thus  particular  in  relation  to  this  vote,  for  reasons  which  I  will,  hereafter  ex- 
plain. The  Legislature  of  Rhode  Island  persevered  in  the  opposition  begun  by 
her  delegates  in  Congress  ;  and  Virginia,  after  giving,  retracted  her  assent ;  so 
that  the  recommendation  totally  failed.  Tliis  state  of  things  continued  till  the  Con- 
vention assembled  which  framed  the  present  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  when 
the  same  topic  of  discussion  and  of  disagreement  was  renewed.  Nor  was  it  easily 
adjusted  in  this  body,  as  intimoled  by  the  member  from  Chesterfield,  (Mr.  Leigh.)  No 
proposition  which  agitated  the  Convention,  consumed  so  much  of  its  time.  As  early 
in  its  deliberations  as  the  20th  of  May,  1787,  it  appears  on  the  Journal  of  the  proceed- 
ings of  that  Assembly,  among  the  resolutions  submitted  by  Governor  Randolph  of 
Virginia,  in  this  form,  "that  the  right  of  suifrage  in  the  National  Legislature,  ought 
to  be  proportioned  to  the  quotas  of  contribution,  or  to  the  number  of  free  inhaljitants, 
as  the  one  or  the  other  may  seem  best  in  different  cases." 

The  following  day  Mr.  Hamilton  moved  to  alter  this  resolution,  so  as  to  cause  it  to 
read, that  the  right  of  suffrage  in  the  National  Legislature,  ought  to  be  proportioned 
to  the  number  of  free  inhabitants." 

On  the  11th  day  of  June,  it  was  moved  by  Mr.  King  of  Massachusetts,  and  seconded 
by  Mr.  Rutledge  of  South  Carolina,  "  That  the  right  of  suffrage  in  the  first  branch  of 
the  National  Legislature,  ought  not  to  be  according  to  the  rule  established  in  the  arti- 
cles of  Confederation  ;"  [the  rule  of  equalit}'-  among  the  States,  as  we  have  seen,]  but 
according  to  some     equitable  ratio  of  representation." 

The  same  day,  along  v/ith  several  other  amendments  of  this  resolution,  it  was 
moved  by  Mr.  Wilson  of  Pennsylvania,  and  seconded  by  Mr.  C.  Pinckney  of  South 
Carolina,  to  add  after  the  w^ords  equitable  ratio  of  representation,"  in  proportion  to 
the  whole  number  of  inhabitants  of  every  age,  sex,  and  condition,  including  those 
bound  to  servitude  for  a  term  of  ye?^rs,  and  tiiree-fifths  of  all  other  persons  not  com- 
prehended in  the  foregoing  description,  except  Indians,  not  paying  taxes,  in  each 
State." 

I  will  not  weary  the  attention  of  the  Committee,  by  reading  all  the  references  I  have 
made  to  this  volume,  the  Journal  of  the  Federal  Convention,  with  a  viev/  to  the  de- 
velopment of  its  course,_in  relation  to  these  resolutions. 

After  passing  and  repassing  through  various  Select  Committees,  and  being  fre- 
quently debated  in  Committee  of  the  Whole,  the  proposition  having  assumed  the 
shape  in  which  it  now  stands  in  the  Federal  Constitution,  was  apparently  settled 
on  the  11th  and  12th  of  July,  by  a  vote  of  seven  States  to  three,  against  striking  out 
the  "  three-fifths  "  of  the  slave  population.  Had  this  motion  prevailed,  it  would  have 
caused  all  the  slave  population  to  be  counted,  as  Delaware  at  first,  and  South  Caro- 
lina and  Georgia  to  the  last,  perseveringly  insisted.  By  a  motion  on  the  second  of 
those  days,  the  attempt  was  renewed  to  produce  this  result,  vv^hen  Maryland,  Vir- 
ginia, and  North  Carolina,  voted  once  more  against,  and  South  Carolina  and  Georgia, 
for  computing  the  entire  slave  population. 


DEBATES    or    THE  CONVENTION. 


185 


What  now  becomes  of  so  much  of  the  authoritr  relied  upon  by  the  gentleman  from 
Chesterfield,  as  vras  derived  from  the  suppos  tion  that  the  principle  of  compn*ir,or 
three-fifl.is  of  the  s  ave  populati.m,  made  part  of  the  articles  of  Confederation  ;  th  it^ 
the  slave-holding  States  were  united  in  its  support  in  tlie  Federal  Convention  ;  and 
that  it  carried  such  conviction,  to  every  mind,  that  it  was  interpolated  in  tlie  new 
Constituti>-a  without  resistance  r  The  pages  of  this  volume,  [the  Journals  of  tlie 
the  Convention.]  from  the  Toth  to  the  161st,  manifest  the  contrary.  The  love  of  power 
did  not,  then,  tempt  Virginia  to  consider  her  slaves  as  parties  to  her  social  compact — 
as  persons  and  not  property.  And  is  she,  now,  prepared  to  go  to  Washington,  or  to 
Boston,  to  learn  the  civil  and  political  condition  of  the  population,  within  her  own 
limits  .-  Whether  it  shall  be  regarded  in  her  own  councils,  as  property,  or  as  a  pea- 
santry," fitted  to  rank  with  '-the  free  people  of  the  West: to  use  the  language  of 
the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  (Mr.  Leigh.) 

Sir,  said  Mr.  Mercer,  is  not  the  slave  under  our  laws,  as  much  an  instrument  in  the 
hands  of  his  master,  as  the  wagon  and  team  of  the  mountaineer True,  his  life  is 
protected  from  violence  and  his  person  from  cruelty.  So  does  the  common  law  of 
England,  which  is  ours,  protect  the  horse  and  the  ox  from  wanton  injury.  But  the 
slave,  hke  either,  is  by  our  law,  mere  property  :  and.  as  such,  may  be  to-morrow 
shipped  by  liis  master  to  Cuba,  or  to  Brazil.  He  may  be  smuggled  into  the  United 
States  from  Africa,  in  violation  of  law,  and  exported  again  as  an  article  of  merchan- 
dize having  a  known  value  in  the  market,  and  beiag  the  subject  of  frequent  and  pro- 
fitable speculation.    I  speak  not  of  the  reason  of  the  law,  but  of  the  legal  fact. 

Do  not  those  who  apprehend  most  danger  to  this  species  of  property,  from  innova- 
tion, consider  the_  slave  as  property,  the  svJ.jcct  of  our  social  compact,  not  a.  jcarty  to 
it  ?  What  said  Xew  Jersey,  to  the  Confederation,  in  tlie  war  of  the  revolution  ? 
•'  That  slaves  should  be  brought  into  the  account,"  in  the  requisition  for  land  forces'' 
to  be  supplied  by  the  States,  to  the  defence  of  the  L  uion.  She  sustained  this  demand, 
by  reasons,  at  least,  as  specious  as  those  which  we  have  just  heard,  for  making  this 
particular  property  the  basis  of  representation.  "  Should  it  be  improper,  for  special, 
local  reasons,  to  admit  them  in  arms  for  the  defence  of  the  nation,  yet  we  conceive," 
says  their  memorial,  ••'  that  the  proportion  of  forces  to  be  embodied  ought  to  be  fixed 
according  to  the  whole  number  of  inhabitants  in  the  State,  from  whatever  class  they 
may  be  raised.  If  the  whole  number  of  inhabitants  in  a  State,  whose  inhabitants 
are  all  ichites,  both  those  who  are  called  into  the  field,  and  those  who  rema'n  to  till  the 
ground  and  labor  in  mechanical  arts,  are  estimated  in  striking  the  proportion  of  forces 
to  be  famished  by  that  State,  ought  even  a  part  of  the  latter  description  to  be  left  out 
in  another  .=  As  it  is  of  indispensable  necessity  in  every  war,  that  a  p;irt  of  the  inha- 
bitants be  employed  for  the  uses  of  husbandry  and  otherwise  at  home,  while  others 
are  called  into  the  field,  there  must  be  the  same  propriety  that  persons  of  a  different 
colour,  who  are  employed  for  this  purpose  in  one  State,  while  whites  are  emploved 
for  the  same  purpose  in  another,  be  reckoned  in  the  accoimt  of  tlie  inliabitants."  The 
prayer  of  this  memorial  received,  in  177S,  the  sanction  of  three  States,  while  one  was 
divided,  and  six  voted  against  it. 

The  argument  of  2Sew  Jersey  in  favor  of  a  computation  of  slaves  in  distributing 
the  personal  burthens  of  a  common  war,  bears  a  striking  resemblance  to  that  vrhich 
the  member  firom  Chesterfield  has  so  forcibly  m-ged  on  the  present  occasion,  and  sus- 
tained by  a  comparison  of  the  peasantry"  of  the  West,  with  the  slaves  of  the 
Eait. 

Toe  answer  to  both  arguments  is  the  same.  That,  however  regarded  elseichere, 
slaves,  in  Virg'inia,  are  considered  as  property,  and  property  only.  But  If,  as  property, 
they  are  exempted,  at  the  expense  of  the  community,  from  obligations  which  would 
be  onerous,  not  upon  themselves,  but  their  master  :  so  as  property  merely,  should  they 
^\not  add  to  the  weight  of  a  political  power,  of  which  they  cannot  and  should  not  directly 
partake  ;.  and  which  is  claimed  for  his  benefit  alone,  to  the  pubhc  injm-y. 

If.  therefore,  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States  has  supplied  a  different  ru''e, 
it  should  be  remembered  that  it  was  founded  in  a  compromise  of  principles,  for  the 
sake  of  uniting  States,  otherwise  sovereign  and  independent,  by  a  2Sational  Govern- 
ment of  limited  power.  Its  introduction,  even  there,  as  a  principle  of  represen- 
tation, was  evidentlv  founded  on  its  prior  assumption,  by  a  majority  of  the  Congress 
of  the  Confederation,  as  a  principle  of  pecimian,"  contribution  among  the  States.  It  is 
a  price  paid,  by  the  small  States,  for  their  equality  of  power,  in  the  Senate  :  and  has 
long  ceased,  as  was  early  anticipated,  to  be  any  security  to  the  property  it  is  supposed 
to  have  been  originallv  desisrned  to  protect  from  unequal  taxation.  In  the  last  House 
of  Representatives,  the  proportion  of  the  members  from  the  slave-holdhig,  to  those 
from  the  non-slave-holding:  States,  was  91  to  How  that  ratio  will  be  augmented 

by  the  approacliing  Census,  I  need  not  intimate  to  the  Committee. 

At  this  point  of  mv  ctrgument.  it  is  proper,  to  allay  the  apprehension  which  has 
so  often  been  expressed  in~this  debate,  that,  to  adopt  the  basis  of  representation  recom- 
mended bv  the  Lecfislative  Committee  for  our  State  Government,  would  put  to  hazard 

24 


186 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


that  portion  of  representation,  in  the  Federal  Legislature,  derived  from  a  computation 
of  three-fifths  of  the  slaves  of  the  Commonwealth. 

Tnis  attempt  upon  our  fears  would  seem  to  imply,  that  representation,  under  our 
present  State  Government,  is  founded,  in  part,  on  a  computation  of  slaves.  That  of 
the  Senate  we  know  to  have  been  apportioned  in  ,1817,  as  nearly  as  practicable,  to  the 
free  v^^hite  population  of  the  State  ;  a  concession,  compatible  with  the  existing  Con- 
stitution, because  made  under  it,  and  paid  for,  by  doubling  the  land-tax  of  one  portion 
of  tha  State,  and  proportionably  reducing  that  of  another. 

The  origin  of  the  House  of  Delegates  was  ably  developed  in  an  early  stage  of  this 
debate,  by  my  learned  friend  from  Brooke,  (Mr.  Doddridge.)  In  the  work  of  a  vene- 
rable member  of  this  Convention,  "  Marshall  on  the  Colonies,"  it  will  be  seen  that 
the  first  representation  of  tlie  people  of.this  Commonwealth  was  of  "  settlements," 
then  seven  in  number.  The  Assembly  v.^liich  tlieir  delegates  formed  was  called  the 
House  of  Burgesses,"  from  tlie  names  of  those  settlements,  as  Elizabeth  City,  James 
City,  Charles  City,  which  names,  by  a  singular  adherence  to  usage,  they  retained,  as 
they  now  do,  after  those  settlements  were,  for  judicial  purposes,  erected  into  counties. 

Representation  in  the  House  of  Burgesses,  therefore,  preceded  the  existence  of 
counties,  as  tiie  counties  did  the  existence  of  slavery  ;  for  that  calamity  was  intro- 
duced among  us  by  the  Dutch,  after  the  origin  of  countv  representation  )  that  repre- 
sentation which  has  ever  since  existed  in  the  House  of  Delegates. 

In  the  Constitution  of  this  branch  of  the  General  Assembly,  therefore,  slavery 
forms  no  original  feature,  and  to  change  its  foundation  by  an  amendment,  which  shall 
derive  its  etfect  from  periodical  enumerations  of  the  people,  could  expose  the  State 
to  no  loss  of  power  in  the  councils  of  the  Union. 

If  otherwise,  what  may  be  said  of  that  very  amendment  for  which  these  gentlemen 
have  so  zealously  contended,  and  which  proposes  the  mixed  basis  of  white  population 
and  taxation  Wovild  not  this  basis,  unless  explained  by  their  arguments,  be  obnox- 
ious to  the  very  same  fears  which  they  labour  to  awaken  ?  Unless  mdeed,  if  it  prevail, 
their  argument  shall  go  abroad  as  a  part  of  tJie  Constitution  itself. 

But  if  our  examples  shall  endanger  a  political  influence,  which  some  gentleman 
compute  at  2-irchs  of  our  present  weight  in  Congress,  and  others,  more  correctly,  at 
seven  out  of  the  twenty-two  members,  we  have  at  present  in  the  House  of  Repre- 
sentatives, what  shall  be  said  of  that,  which  is  supplied,  by  so  many  other  States, 
interested  like  us,  and  some  of  them  more  deeply,  in  retaining  this  feature  of  our 
Federal  Representation.''  Why  has  no  slave-holding  State,  save  Georgia  alone,  en- 
grafted this  principle  on  her  Constitution  of  Government.''  Neither  Louisiana,  whose 
climate  and  productions  approach  so  near  the  tropical  sun,  which  has  stained  the  com- 
plexion of  Africa,  nor  Missouri,  who  formed  her  Constitution,  amidst  a  moral  and  poli- 
tical excitement  which  might  have  excused  such  alarm,  have  felt  its  influence. 

And  if  there  is  any  truth  in  the  origin  of  it,  on  the  present  occasion,  why  let  me 
ask,  did  not  the  Hartford  Convention,  when  it  sought  to  exact  a  surrender  of  this 
power,  from  our  fear  of  disunion,  appeal  to  the  example  of  every  slave-holding  State, 
except  Georgia,  to  enforce  their  pretensions 

We  have,  Mr.  Chairman,  in  truth,  a  substantial,  and  trusting  as  I  do,  to  the  obliga- 
tion of  solemn  comp  icts,  though  recorded  on  mere  parchment,  a  permanent  safe-guard, 
for  this  portion  of  our  political  weight,  which,  though  I  deplore  its  origin,  I  neither  de- 
precate, nor  am  prepared  to  yield,  to  any  claims,  whatever.  This  safe- guard  is  to  be 
found ,  in  that  provision  of  the  Constitution  which ,  without  naming  expressly ,  confers  this 
power,  and  in  another  clause  of  the  same  instrument,  which  pro^ides  that  no  altera- 
tion or  amendment  of  it,  shall  take  effect,  unless  w^ith  the  sanction  of  three-fourths  of 
the  States-. 

To  propose  an  amendment,  whicli  sliall  deprive  Virginia  of  this  power  through  the 
National  Legislature,  will  require,  by  this  clause,  the  concurrence  of  two-thirds  of  both 
branches  of  that  body  :  and  in  one  of  them  the  slave-holding  States  have,  now,  in- 
clusive of  Delaware,  twenty-four  out  of  forty-eight  members. 

But  it  is,  to  the  sanction,  required  of  the  States  themselves,  to  any  change  of  the 
Constitution,  that  I  look,  with  absolute  confidence  for  the  preservation  of  this  power. 

At  present  any  seven  of  the  twelve  slave-holding  States  could  defeat  any  amend- 
ment which  threatened  its  existence. 

Looking  forward  to  the  admission  of  the  territories  of  Florida,  Arkansas  and  Michi- 
gan into  the  Union,  I  see  this  security  confirmed  by  the  addition  of  two  slave-holding 
States,  making  the  total  number  fourteen,  exclusive  of  Delaware,  which  I  do  not 
count,  because  she  is  not  likely  long  to  continue  of  that  number.  Glancing  to 
a  futurity  much  more  remote,  and  allowing  for  two  additional  States  to  the  North  of 
Illinois  and  Missouri,  still  the  ratio  between  the  number  of  the  slave-holding  and  non- 
slave-holding  States  will  be  as  for.rteen  to  fifteen.  If,  in  the  madness  of  future  con- 
quest, for  I  never  desired  the  annexation  of  Canada,  to  this  Union,  the  whole  North 
American  provinces  of  the  British  Empire  shall  fall  to  our  lot,  and  Upper  and  Lower 
Canada  supply  two  States,  in  addition  to  Nova  Scotia  and  New  Brunswick,  tlie  pro- 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


187 


portion  will  be  not  less  than  fourteen  to  nineteen,  and  nine  States  of  the  fourteen, 
may  prevent  any  change  of  the  Constitut'on  prejudicial  to  the  rights  and  interests  of 
the  holders  of  this  property.  Let  the  Union,  therefore,  be  extended,  from  Florida,  to 
the  northernmost  hmits  of  our  continent — Let  the  States  who  compose  it,  be  animated 
by  what  policy  they  may,  a  combination  among  them,  to  the  prejudice  of  the  political 
power  of  the  South,  so  far  as  it  rests  on  the  principles  of  the  present  Constitution, 
can  never  be  availing  while  that  Constitution  remains  inviolate.  The  resources  of  the 
common  Government  may  be  applied  to  mitigate  the  evils  of  slavery  by  the  aid  of 
colonization,  but  its  power  can  never  be  applied  to  endanger  the  peace  of  those  who 
suffer  from  its  existence.  While  the  number  of  slaves,  to  the  South,  forbids  their 
emancipation,  without  their  consequent  removal  from  the  Commonwealth,  no  wise 
man  can  desire  its  augmentation.  Whether  it  can  be  reduced  in  a  mode  consistent 
with  the  claims  of  justice  and  humanity,  we  are  not  now  called  upon  to  decide.  I  am 
on  tills  subject  no  enthusiast ;  I  look  ever  to  the  attainment  of  just  ends  by  expedient 
means.  These  I  am  ready  to  discuss  on  ?aiy  suitable  occasion,  in  a  temper  to  make 
every  allowance  for  the  rights  of  private  judgment  in  others,  and  with  a  solicitude, 
which  no  consideration  can  sway,  for  the  peace  and  happiness  of  the  Commonwealtli. 

The  eloquent  member  from  Hanover,  (Mr.  Morris)  in  his  fervid  address  to  the  Com- 
mittee, acknowledged  that  he  entertained  no  apprehension  of  sudden  emancipation 
from  any  change  of  the  present  Constitution.  Let  my  honorable  friend  then,  and  I 
apply  this  language  to  him,  in  the  sincerity  of  a  heart  that  never  forgot  a  benefit,  re- 
turn to  its  scabbard  the  bloody  sword  which  his  fancy  drew  in  the  close  of  his  anima- 
ted and  able  speech.  Having  no  terrors  for  him,  it  has  none  for  me — The  property  of 
the  master  will  be  secured  by  the  sad  necessity  from  which  it  derives  its  existence. 
No  gentleman  has  proposed  that  slaves  shall  be  numerically  represented.  As  pro- 
perty, is  it  better  entitled  to  representation  than  any  other  estate  in  the  Common- 
wealthIf  so,  on  what  is  that  title  founded?  Their  value  .'  Why  not  compute  lands  or 
horses This  argument  I  have  already  considered  in  relation  to  the  amendment,  by 
which  it  was  proposed  to  combine  taxation  with  population  as  a  basis  of  representa- 
tion. Were  values  to  be  regarded  as  a  basis  of  representation,  should  we  not  compute 
the  mineral  treasures  of  the  mountains  of  Virginia,  which  though  latent,  await  but 
the  hand  of  enterprise,  to  develope  their  extent,  and  to  fit  them  for  human  use.?  As 
well  might  a  British  statesman  propose  to  augment  in  the  Parliament  of  that  country, 
the  representation  of  South  Wales,  whose  naked  mountains,  barren  in  surface,  as  the 
Highlands  of  Scotland,  have  beo-un  since  the  commencement  of  the  present  century 
to  contribute  to  the  wealth  of  Great  Britain,  as  ample  stores  as  the  richest  counties  of 
England. 

Bef  re  I  leave  the  inquiry,  whether  slaves  should  be  admitted  to  representation,  re- 
garded either  as  persons  or  property,  an  authority  confidently  uro-ed  by  the  gentleman 
from  Chesterfield,  remains  to  be  considered — the  fifty-fourth  number  of  the  Federalist, 
or  the  letters  of  Publius.  addressed  to  the  American  people  after  the  formation,  and 
prior  to  the  adoption  of  the  Constitution. 

While  he  should  ever  entertain  not  only  the  most  profound,  but  the  most  grateful 
respect  for  the  very  eminent  authors  of  that  work,  and  regard  the  work  itself,  as  a 
rich  depository  of  political  science,  and  an  honor  to  American  literature,  it  is  proper 
to  remark,  that  it  was,  in  its  character,  controversial. 

He  who  studies  it  with  attention,  v>n]l  perceive  that  it  is  not  only  argumentative, 
but  that  it  addresses  different  arguments  to  different  classes  of  the  American  public, 
in  the  spirit  of  an  able  and  skilful  disputant  before  a  mixed  assembly.  Thus,  from 
different  numbers  of  this  work,  and  so.netlmes  from  the  same  number,  may  be  derived 
authorities  for  opposite  principles  and  opinions.  For  example,  nothing  is  easier  than 
to  demonstrate  by  the  numbers  of  Publius,  that  the  Government,  which  it  was  writ- 
ten not  to  expound  merely,  but  to  recommend  to  the  people,  is,  or  is  not  a  National 
Government ;  that  the  several  State  Legislatures  may  arraign  at  their  respective  bars, 
the  conduct  of  the  Federal  Government,  or  that  no  State  has  any  such  power.  I  have 
in  debate  used  this  work  for  some  one  of  these  and  other  purposes,  vrhile  my  adver- 
sary has  met  me  with  passaores  from  it  alike  genuine,  which  overturned  my  positions. 

The  authors  underto^ok  to"defend  ever}^  part  of  a  Constitution,  to  which  two  of  them 
at  least,  had  in  the  Convention  offered  amendments  that  were  rejected,  and  the  whole 
of  the  numerous  articles,  of  wliich,  no  man  in  America,  of  independent  judgment, 
then  approved.    It  was  tire  offspring  of  mutual  concessions,  of 'compromise. 

With  these  preliminary  reflections  on  this  very  able  work,  which  I  trust  -will  be  re- 
garded as  compatible  with  the  veneration  and  gratitude  I  cherish  for  its  authors,  I  beg 
leave  to  turn  the  attention  of  the  Committee  to  the  particular  number,  quoted  as  au- 
thority by  the  member  from  Chesterfield,  to  prove  not  that  three-fifths  of  the  slaves  of 
the  several  States  are  computed  as  a  part  of  the  basis  of  representation  in  the  House 
of  Representatives,  but  that,  of  right  they  should  be  so  computed. 

"The  next  view,"  says  the  author  of  this  number,  who  appears  in  the  volume  I 
have,  to  have  been  ]Mr. 'Hamilton,     which  I  shall  take  of  the  House  of  Representa= 


188 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


tives,  relates  to  the  apportionment  of  its  members  among  the  several  States,  which  is 
to  be  determined  by  the  same  rule  with  that  direct  taxes."  In  the  succeedinor  clause, 
the  author,  who  had  both  in  the  Old  Congress  voted  agamst  this  rule,  and  in  the  Con- 
vention submitted  a  different  one,  qualifies  the  approbation  of  the  rule  which  his  pre- 
sent purpose  requires  him  to  sustain,  by  a  peculiar  form  of  expression.  "  It  is  not 
contended,"  he  says,  "  that  the  number  of  people  in  each  State  ought  not  to  he  the 
standard  for  regulating  the  proportion  of  those  who  are  to  re])rese7it  the  people  of  each 
State."  He  does  not,  therefore,  impugn  the  identical  principle  for  which  we  at  present 
contend ;  and  which,  on  another  occasion,  he  had  maintained.  He  proceeds  as  fol- 
lows :  "  The  establishment  of  the  same  rule,"  that  of  the  Constitution,  "  for  the  ap- 
portionment of  taxes,"  will  be  as  little  "  contested  ;  though  the  rule  itself  in  this  case," 
that  is  as  to  taxes,  "  is  by  no  means,  founded  on  the  same  jjrinciples.  In  the  former  case, 
the  rule  is  understood  to  refer  to  the  personal  rights  of  the  people,  with  which  it  has  a 
naf.ural  and  universal  connexion.  In  the  latter,  it  has  reference  to  the  proportion  of 
wealth,  of  which  it  is,  in  no  case,  a  precise  measure,  and  in  ordinary  cases  a  very  uvfit 
one.  But  notwithstanding  the  imperfection  of  the  rule,  as  applied  to  the  relative 
wealth  and  contributions  of  the  States,  it  is  evidently  the  least  exceptionable  among 
those  that  are  practicable;''  and  he  adds,  what  the  Journals  of  the  Convention,  now 
published,  as  well  as  the  antecedent  conduct  of  Rhode  Island,  New  York,  and  Vir- 
ginia, must  be  allowed  at  least  to  qualify  to  some  extent,  "  that  it  had  too  recently  ob- 
tained the  general  sanction  of  America,  not  to  have  found  a  ready  preference  with  the 
Convention." 

In  another  part  of  the  same  essay — "  It  is  agreed,"  saj's  the  author,  on  all  sides, 
that  numbers  are  the  best  scale  of  wealth  and  taxation,  as  they  are  the  only  proper 
scale  of  representation."  The  last  is  the  doctrine  for  which  the  advocates  of  the  reso- 
lution contend,  against  the  doctrine  of  the  amendment,  which  would  found  represen- 
tation on  numbers  and  taration  combined. 

[Mr.  Leigh  rose  and  said,  the  gentleman  would  much  oblige  him  by  stating  who 
was  the  author.] 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  the  paper  which  he  had  read,  had  prefixed  to  it  the  name  of  Mr. 
Hamilton. 

[Mr.  Doddridge  rose  and  said,  that  the  paper  from  which  the  extract  had  been  read, 
was  attributed  in  some  of  the  editions  of  the  Federalist,  to  Mr.  Jay.] 

[Mr.  M.idison  then  rose  and  said,  that  although  he  was  not  desirous  to  take  part  in 
this  discussion,  yet  under  all  the  circumstances  he  was,  perhaps,  called  on  to  state, 
that  the  paper  in  question  was  not  written  by  Mr.  Hamilton  or  Mr.  Jay,  but  by  the 
third  person  connected  with  that  work.] 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  this  volume,  the  third  of  an  edition  of  "  Hamilton's  Works,"  the 
editor  of  which  he  supposed  Jiad  derived  his  key  to  the  names  of  the  authors  of  Pub- 
lius  from  a  manuscript  of  Mr.  Hamilton  which  he  saw  many  years  ago,  in  the  pos- 
session of  the  late  Richard  Stocktm,  an  eminent  statesman  of  JNew-Jersey,  would 
constitute,  he  hoped,  an  apology  for  the  error  into  which,  in  common  Avith  many  edi- 
tors of  this  work,  he  had  been  betrayed  ;  as  he  now  perceived  that  the  number  of 
Publius,  which  he  had  quoted,  was  the  work  of  a  distinguished  member  of  this  Con- 
vention. 

Although  not  able  to  avail  himself  of  this  paper,  for  the  precise  purpose  which  he 
had  proposed,  he  was  glad  it  came  from  such  a  source  ;  firom  the  venerable  Chair- 
man of  the  Legislative  Committee,  who  had  already  yielded  his  support  to  the  reso- 
lution in  debate. 

For  the  opinions  expressed  by  Mr.  Hamilton,  the  author  of  more  than  a  moiety  of 
these  very  able  essays,  in  relation  to  the  present  topic  of  inquiry,  Mr.  M.  said  he 
would  refer  this  Committee,  not  only  to  his  votes  in  the  Congress  which  preceded,  as 
w^ell  as  the  Convention  which  made  the  Constitution,  but  to  a  prior  number  of  those 
admirable  essays  written  in  favour  of  its  adoption,  and  which  bears  his  name. 

The  right  of  equal  suffrage  among  the  States,"  Mr.  Hamilton  says  in  the  22d 
number,  "  is  another  exceptionable  part  of  the  Confederation.  Every  idea  of  propor- 
tion, and  every  rule  of  fair  representation,  conspire  to  condemn  a  principle,  which 
gives  to  Rhode  Island  an  equal  weight  in  the  scale  of  power  with  Massachusetts,  or 
Connecticut,  or  New- York ;  and  to  Delaware  an  equal  voice  in  the  national  delibe- 
rations, with  Pennsylvania,  or  Virginia,  or  North  Carolina.  Its  operation  contradicts 
the  fundamental  maxim  of  Republican  Government,  wliich  requires  that  tlie  sense  of  a 
majority  should  prevail."  The  conformity  of  this  language  to  that  of  the  friends  of 
equal  representation  in  this  Convention,  is  too  apparent  to  need  any  other  proof  of  it, 
than  would  arise  from  substituting  the  county  of  Warwick  for  "  Delaware,"  and 
Frederick,  or  Lnudoun,  for  Pennsylvania,"  or  "  New- York."  How  far  the  answer 
to  this  reasoning,  which  Mr.  Ham  Iton  puts  in  the  mouths  of  h^s  adversaries,  speaks 
the  language  of'our  opponents,  I  h  ave  it  to  the  Committee  to  judge. 

"Sophistry,"  says  Mr.  Hamilton,  "  may  reply  that  sovereigns  are  equal,  and  that 
a  majority  of  the  votes  of  the  States,  will  be  a  majority  of  confederated  America." 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


tm 


For  the  words  "  sovereigns,''  and  "  State,"  I  have  only  to  insert  the  word  ''counties," 
in  behalf  of  those  who  "^desire  no  change  of  the  present  Constitution,  and  for  "  con- 
federated America,"  the  people  of  Virginia. 

I  close  this  quotation  witii"Mr.  Hamilton's  rejoinder,  which  needs  no  commentary. 
"But  this  kind  of  loffical  legerdemain,"  he  adds,  will  never  counteract  the  plain 
suggestions  of  justice^  and  common  sense.  It  may  happen  that  a  majority  of  States 
is  a  small  minority  of  the  people  of  America,  and  two-thirds  of  the  people  of  America 
could  not  lonff  be  persuaded  upon  the  credit  of  artificial  distinctions  and  syllogistic 
suUleties,~to  submit  their  interests  to  the  management  and  disposal  of  one-third.  The 
larger  States  would,  after  a  while,  revolt  from  receiving  the  law,  from  the  smaller. 
To  acquiesce  in  such  a  privation  of  their  due  importance  in  the  political  scale,  would 
be,  not  merely  to  be  insensible  to  the  love  of  powder,  but  even  to  sacrifice  the  desire  of 
equality.  It  is  neither  rational  to  expect  the  first,  nor  just  to  require  the  last.  Con- 
sidering ho'W  peculiarly  the  safety  and  welfare  of  the  smaller  States  depend  on  union, 
they  ought  readily  to  renounce  a  pretension,  which,  if  not  relinquished,  would  prove 
fatal  to  its  duration." 

The  Committee  will  readily  excuse  my  substitution  of  the  words  of  this  able  and 
eloquent  writer,  for  any  language  that  I  could  invent  to  express  the  same  ideas.  Such 
a  course  is  the  more  expedient  for  my  purpose,  since  it  affirms  all  the  truths  which  I 
labour  to  sustain,  by  the  appeal  of  a  statesman  and  patriot  of  the  revolution  to  the 
people  of  America,  in  support  of  the  principles,  for  which  he  had  contended,  as  well 
in  arms,  as  in  council. 

That  he  did  not,  any  more  than  his  equally  patriotic  associates,  confound  taxation 
with  representation,  as  has  been  so  often  done  in  the  course  of  thus  debate,  a  passage, 
which  I  beg  leave  to  offer  to  the  Committee  from  the  preceding  number  of  this  able 
W'ork,  sufficiently  manifests. 

The  principle,"  says  he,  "  of  regulating  the  contributions  of  the  States,  to  the  com- 
mon treasury,  by  quotas,  is  another  fundamental  error  of  the  Confederacy."  "  I  speak 
of  it  now,  solely  with  a  view  to  equality  among  the  States."  By  eqiuility,  it  will  be 
seen,  that  he  does  not  mean  the  payment  of  equal  sums,  by  equal  numbers,  but  in 
cqua^,  or  just  proportion  to  the  respective  abilities  of  those  who  are  required  to  pay 
them  for  the  common  benefit  of  all.  ■'•  Those  who  have  been  accustomed  to  contem- 
plate the  circumstances,  which  produce  and  constitute  national  wealth,  must  be  satis- 
fied that  there  is  no  common  standard,  or  barometer,  by  which,  the  degrees  of  it  can 
be  ascertained. — Neither  the  value  of  the  lands  nor  the  numbers  of  the  people,  which 
have  been  successively  proposed,  as  the  rule  of  State  contributions,  has  any  p7-etcnsion 
to  being  a  just  representative."  Let  Virginia  be  contrasted  with  North  Carolina,  or 
Maryland  with  New-Jersey,  and  we  shall  be  convinced  that  the  respective  abilities  of 
those  States,  in  relation  to  revenue,  bear  little  or  no  analogy  to  their  comparative  stock 
in  lands,  or  to  their  comparative  population.  The  position  may  be  equally  illustrated, 
by  a  similar  process  between  the  counties  of  the  same  State.  No  man  acquainted  with 
the  State  of  New-York,  Vvull  doubt,  that  the  active  wealth  of  King's  county  bears  a 
much  greater  proport-Ion  to  that  of  Montgi-)mery,  than  it  would  appear  to  do,  if  we 
should  take  either  the  total  value  of  the  lands  or  the  total  numbers  of  the  people  as  a 
criterion. 

The  wealth  of  nations  depends  upon  an  infinite  variety  of  causes.  Situation, 
soil,  climate  ;  the  nature  of  the  productions  ;  the  nature  of  the  Government ;  the  ge- 
nius of  the  citizens;  the  deg-ree  of  information  they  possess;  the  state  of  commerce, 
of  arts,  of  industry  ;  these  circumstances,  and  many  more  too  complex,  minute,  or 
adventitious,  to  admit  of  a  particular  specification,  occasion  differences  hardly  con- 
ceivable in  the  relative  opulence  and  riches  of  different  counties.  The  consequence 
is,  that  there  can  be  no  common  measure  of  national  wealth ;  and,  of  course,  no  gene- 
ral or  stationary  rule  by  which  the  ahility  of  a  State  to  pay  taxes  can  be  determined. 
The  attempt,  therefore,  to  regulate  the  contributions  of  the  members  of  a  Confederacy, 
by  any  such  rule,  cannot  fail  to  he  Y'^o6.\xci\Ye  o?  glaring  iriequality  and  extreme  op- 
pression. 

There  is  no  method  of  steering  clear  of  this  inconvenience,  but  by  authorising 
the  National  Government  to  raise  its  own  revenues  in  its  own  way. 

"  It  is  a  signal  advantage  of  taxes  on  articles  of  consumption,  that  they  contain  in 
their  own  nature  a  security  acrainst  excess.  They  prescribe  their  ovm  limit ;  which 
cannot  be  exceeded  v/ithout  defeating  the  end  proposed — that  is,  an  extension  of  the 
revenue.  When  applied  to  this  object,  the  saying  is  as  just  as  it  is  witty,  that '  in 
political  arithmetic,  two  and  two  do  not  always  make  four.'  " 

May  I  not  now  affirm,  ^vithout  a  presumptuous  impeachm.ent  of  the  authority  of 
the  able  authors  of  this  vindication  of  the  Federal  Constitution,  that  whatever  con- 
cessions it  may  contain  of  expediency  or  justice,  to  the  Union  of  the  States,  they  have 
not  sanctioned  the  doctrines  of  our  adversaries  :  that  slaves  are  regarded  as  property 
by  our  laws,  and  as  such  have  no  other  title  to  representation,  than  any  other  descrip- 
tion of  property  in  the  Common vv'ealth. 


190 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


The  resolution,  which  I  have  undertaken  to  sustain,  alike  excludes  a  representa- 
tion of  counties.  Such  is  the  present  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  and 
its  glaring  inequality  is  one  of  the  leading  causes  of  this  Convention.  Although  no 
voice  has  been  heard  in  this  Committee  to  vindicate  this  inequality,  and  the  proposed 
amendment  is  as  much  at  war  with  its  continuance  as  the  resolution  itself,  yet  those 
who  are  opposed  to  any  change  of  the  present  Constitution  must  be  regarded  as  dis- 
posed to  tolerate,  and  bound  to  defend  it.  It  is  equally  incumbent  on  the  advocates 
of  the  resolution  to  advert  to  its  extent,  and  its  operation  on  the  principles  for  which 
the  friends  of  a  Convention  have  contended. 

There  are  at  present  in  this  Commonwealth,  105  counties,  entitled  each  to  two  De- 
legates, and  four  boroughs,  having  *by  law  separate  representation,  entitled  each  to 
one  Delegate.  The  House  of  Delegates  consists,  at  present,  therelore,  of  214  mem- 
bers, of  which  108  are  a  majority.  Fifty-four  of  the  counties  of  Virginia  may,  there- 
fore, return  such  a  majority.  Omitting  with  all  the  boroughs,  Wilhamsburg  having 
a  population  of  only  53(>  wiiite  inhabitants,  and  the  small  counties  of  Logan,  Allegha- 
ny, and  Pocahontas,  which  have  been  created  since  the  last  Census,  this  majority  may 
be  supplied  by  160,000  of  the  603,000  white  inhabitants  of  the  Commonwealth.  It 
follows,  therefore,  that  a  minority  of  much  less  than  a  third  of  the  people  of  Virginia, 
may  govern  the  other  two-thirds. 

Of  the  thirty-nine  counties  below  the  Blue  Ridge,  selected  to  make  this  proportion, 
five  have  fev/er  than  2,000  white  inhabitants,  each;  one  has  but  t)20,  and  another  but 
1,017. 

Of  the  fifteen  beyond  that  mountain,  which  I  have  added  to  the  former,  the  smallest 
has  a  \yhite  population  of  very  near  1,800,  and  that  is  the  only  one  which  has  a  white 
population  below  2,000  in  number. 

In  addition  to  the  six  counties  having  each  less  than  2,000  white  inhabitants,  there 
are  eleven  counties,  whose  population  is  known,  which  have  between  2  and  3,000 
only,  and  of  these,  there  are  but  two  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge. 

On  the  other  hand,  there  are  thirteen  counties,  which  have  each  more  than  10,000 
white  inhabitants,  of  which,  all  but  one,  lie  either  West,  or  on  the  Eastern  face  of  that 
mountain;  and,  of  those,  three,  having  each  more  than  16,000,  lie  connected  together. 

Similar  inequalities,  it  has  been  urged  by  some  of  our  opponents,  exist  without  com- 
plaint, in  the  neighbouring  States  of  Maryland  and  North  Carolina,  which  have,hke 
Virginia,  equal  county  representation. 

IN  either  position  is  true.  Complaints  of  unequal  representation,  have  been  made 
in  both  these  States,  without  effect,  because  the  foundation  of  them,  bears  no  propor- 
tion to  the  inequality  for  which  we  are  assembled  to  provide. 

Maryland  has  nineteen  counties,  the  largest  of  which,  Frederick,  contains  a  few 
more  tlaan  40,000  inhabitants,  of  every  description;  and  the  smallest,  Calvert,  a  few 
more  than  8,000.  The  proportion  being  of  five  to  one,  on  the  whole  population^  and 
rather  more  than  eight  to  one,  if  their  white  population  alone,  be  computed. 

North  Carolina  has  sixty-two  counties.  Rowan,  the  largest,  has  26,000  inhabitants, 
and  Washington,  the  least,  very  near  4,000 :  The  proportion  being  about  six  and  a  half 
to  one,  and  if  the  white  population  be  separately  computed,  21,000  to  2.300,  or  about 
nine  to  one.  While  we  have  seen  that  the  total  population  of  the  largest  county  of 
Virginia,  was,  to  the  least,  as  far  back  as  1820,  in  the  ratio  exceeding  fifteen  to  one, 
and  computing  the  white  population  alone,  of  twenty-six  to  one. 

There  is  not  a  man  within  the  sound  of  my  voice,  said  Mr.  M.  nor  would  there  be 
•  one  who  merited  the  appellation,  could  I  be  heard  by  the  people  of  America,  who 
would  consent  to  be  degraded  by  the  application  of  such  a  scale  of  political  power,  to 
his  own  rights  in  comparison  with  those  of  his  neighbour. 

In  one  branch  of  the  Legislature,  a  similar  inequality  was  redressed  in  1817,  by  a 
new  arrangement  of  the  Senatorial  districts,  on  the  basis  of  white  population.  At  that 
time,  four  members,  of  a  body  consisting  of  twenty-four,  represented  two-fifths  of  the 
entire  population  of  the  State,  and  might  have  been  outvoted  by  the  representation 
of  a  twelfth.  The  evil  called  aloud  for  redress,  and  it  was  redressed  in  the  manner, 
in  which  we  now  ask  to  have  remedied  a  similar  inequality  in  the  other  branch  of  the 
General  Assembly.  I  was  one  of  those  who  retired  from  this  Hall  in  1817,  prepared 
to  await  the  developement  of  the  new  distribution  of  the  Senate,  and  acquiescing  in 
the  existing  state  of  affairs.  The  arrival  of  a  period  of  profound  tranquillity  among 
the  parties  which  had  divided,  not  Virginia,  but  the  Union,  (for  a  mere  contest  for 
the  Presidency,  could  give  rise  to  but  transient  excitement,) — a  contest,  in  which  for 
several  years,  he  had  felt  scarcely  interest  enough  to  carry  him  to  the  polls,  had 
prompted  him  to  unite  with  his  fellow-citizens,  in  endeavouring  to  amend  the  defects 
of  their  common  Government. 

Having  disposed  of  the  mixed  basis  of  taxation  and  white  population,  of  slave  and 
free  population,  regarding,  as  he  proceeded,  the  claim  of  the  former  to  consideration, 
both  as  persons  and  as  property;  and  exposed  the  inequality  of  county  representation, 
he  came  now  to  an  examination  of  the  only  remaining  basis,  or  that  which  had  been 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


191 


adopted  and  recommended  to  the  Convention  by  the  Legislative  Committee — the 
numberi  of  the  free  white  population  exclusively,  and  that,  with  a  view  to  give  to  equal 
numbers,  equal  portions  of  political  power  in  the  constitution  of  the  popular  branch  of 
the  Government. 

A  proposition  had.  indeed,  been  submitted  to  the  Convention,  by  his  eloquent  friend 
from  rsorfolk,  in  the  form  of  an  amendment  of  the  Bill  of  Pdghts,  which  asserted  that 
equal  numbers  of  legal  voters  throughout  the  Conuuonwealth,  should  have  equal  po- 
litical power,  vnthout  regard  to  the  distinction  of  fortune.  As  such  a  proposition 
might  be  regarded  as  of  a  different  character  from  that  contained  in  the  resolution  of 
the  Legislative  Committee,  Mr.  M.  said  he  would,  as  the  incipient  step  towards  the 
conclusion  he  was  desirous  to  reach,  undertake  to  shew  their  practical  if  not  theoreti- 
cal conformity.  Yvhatever  extent  may  be  given  to  the  right  of  suffrage,  the  only  im- 
portant distinction  between  these  propositions  will  be  found  to  consist  in  the  supe- 
rior facility  of  executing  that  which  requires,  simply,  a  periodical  enumeration  of  the 
white  population  of  the  Commonwealth.  To  compute  all  the  legal  voters  of  the  Com- 
monwealth, supposing  the  extension  of  suffrage  to  be  built  upon  the  present  freehold 
qualification,  enlarged  by  the  admission  of  other  classes  of  citizens,  not  freeholders,  to 
the  same  pivilege,  would  require  the  enumeration  of  all  classes.  If  that  labour  be 
regarded  in  relation  to  the  freeholders  alone,  it  is  not  difficult  to  conceive  its  magni- 
tude and  the  delays  which  must  attend  its  execution. 

In  a  computation  of  legal  voters,  instead  of  active  agents,  competent,  at  little  cost, 
to  take  a  Census  of  the  people,  learned  Justices  in  Eyre  must  be  provided  in  suffici- 
ent number  to  traverse  every  county,  city,  borough,  or  election  district  in  the  Com- 
monwe  -lth,  in  order  to  enquire  who  have  freehold  estates,  and  have  been  so  seized 
for  the  period  required  by  law.  If  to  these,  be  added,  the  cases  of  constructive  free- 
holds, and  of  tenants  in  common,  whose  names  may  not,  and  often  do  not,  appear  on 
the  Commissioners"  lists,  and  should  claimants  in  reversion  and  remainder,  of  vested 
or  contingent  freeholds  be  empowered  to  vote,  as  some  gentlemen  propose,  many  years 
would  elapse  in  making  the  necesssary  enumeration  and  lists  for  the  apportionment 
of  Delegates.  Nor  would  this  painful  and  costly,  if  not  impracticable  labomr,  lead  to 
a  different  result  from  that  of  the  Census  of  the  free  white  population,  as  we  have 
good  grounds  to  infer  under  any  extension  of  suffrage.  The  more  enlarged  it  may 
be,  the  more  nearly  will  the  numbers  of  those  who  are  legal  voters,  approach  the  nmn- 
ber  of  that  population.  But  if  restricted  to  landed  qualification,  or  extended  to  all 
who  pay  taxes  on  moveable  property,  still  the  apportionment  to  white  population  will 
very  nearly,  if  not  exactly,  conform  to  that  which  might  be  founded  on  a  computation 
of  the  numljer  of  votes. 

As  evidence  of  this,  Mr.  M.  referred  to  tlnree  of  the  tables  lately  suppHed  by  the 
Auditor  of  Public  Accounts. 

To  the  first  of  these,  that  which  professed  to  deduce  white  population  of  1629,  in 
the  several  counties,  from  the  number  of  titheables  voluntarily  returned  to  that  officer, 
at  his  request,  Mr.  M.  could  not  yield  implicit  confidence.  Indefatigable,  faithful  and 
intelligent  as  he  knew  that  officer  to  be,  lie  could  not  do  more  than  use  the  materials 
supplied  him.  Mr.  M.  had  seen  that,  in  the  district  which  he  in  part  represented,  one 
immediately  below  the  Blue  Ridge,  intersected  by  three  of  the  most  extensive  turn- 
pikes in  the  Commonwealth,  and  having  more  of  that  description  of  improvement 
within  it,  constructed  by  individual  enterprise,  than  is  to  be  found  in  all  the  rest  of 
the  Commonwealth  put  together ;  this  table  manifested  a  reduction  in  nine  years  of 
the  entire  population  of  1620,  by  5.384  souls:  a  fact  which  he  most  confidently  be- 
lieved to  be  untrue.  He  would  undertake  to  say  that  the  county  of  Loudoun  had,  in 
that  period,  sustained  no  loss  of  white  population,  and  Fairfax  very  little,  if  any. 
Another  error,  of  almost  equal  extent,  had  occurred  in  the  same  statement,  in  adding 
to  the  population  of  Augusta  a  number  equal  to  that  which  had  been  taken  from  Lou- 
doun. Abandoning  the  conclusions  to  be  drawn  from  a  table,  so  inaccurate.  Mr.  Mer- 
cer said  he  would  go  back  to  the  Census  of  1820,  in  which  he  discovered  that  the 
white  population  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge  bore  very  nearly  the  same  ratio  to  the  white 
population  below  that  mountain,  that  the  number  of  persons  in  the  one  territory  charged 
on  the  land-books  of  1826  with  taxes  on  a  quantity  of  land  not  less  than  twenty-five 
acres,  or  on  a  lot  or  part  of  a  lot  in  a  town  estabhshed  by  law,  bore  to  the  same  de- 
scription of  persons  in  the  other?  The  first  ratio  being  nearly  that  of  2-5  to  35,  and 
the  second  that  of  37  to  .5.3 :  While  the  third  table  reported  the  number  of  persons, 
West  of  the  same  mountain,  who  are  charged  with  a  State  tax  on  moveable  property 
for  the  year  1828,  to  be  40,079:  and  the  number  of  persons,  East  of  it,  charged  in  the 
same  year,  with  the  same  tax,  to  be  55.514. 

This  ratio  may  be  expressed  with  sufficient  accuracy,  by  40  to  55,  and  corresponds 
so  nearly  with  that  of  37  to  53.  the  ratio  of  the  proprietors  of  lands  and  lots,  in  these 
tico  districts,  and  of  25  to  35,  that  of  the  white  population  of  the  same  districts,  that 
with  little  error,  a  common  measure  may  be  assumed  for  these  three  proportions. 
That  measure  would  express  both  the  relative  proportion  of  the  white  population 


192 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


above  and  below  tlais  natural  division  of  the  Commonwealth,  and  of  the  legal  voters 
of  the  same  districts.  Inferring  from  the  identity  of  these  three  proportions,  be- 
tween the  free  inhabitants  and  the  proprietors  of  real  and  moveable  property  in 
these  extensive  territories  of  the  Commonwealth,  the  like  identity  throughout  their 
minute  sub-divisions,  I  shall  consider  myself,  in  the  sequel  of  my  argument,  as  sus- 
taining, at  the  same  time,  the  position  of  my  friend  from  Norfolk,  and  that  of  the 
Legislative  Committee. 

In  entering  upon  the  last  which  I  propose  to  consider,  but  by  far,  the  most  impor- 
tant enquiry,  of  the  many,  which  have  arisen  in  the  progress  of  this  debate,  into 
*^  the  right  of  the  majority  of  any  society  to  govern  it,"  I  find  myself  embarrassed, 
by  tiie  very  simplicity  of  the  truth,  I  have  to  maintain.  What  is  obscure,  maybe  ex- 
plained ;  what  is  perplexed,  disentangled  :  error  may  be  detected,  and  falsehood  ex- 
posed. But  the  mind  is  surprised,  by  the  denial  of  a  principle  universally  admitted, 
and  at  a  loss  to  prove,  what,  for  ages,  no  one  has  had  the  singularity,  or  the  temerity, 
to  question. 

We  are,  hov/ever  told,  that  there  are  no  principles  to  be  admitted  any  longer  ;  that 
none  in  fact  exist;  and  that  whatever  proposition  w^e  advance,  as  the  basis  of  our 
reasoning,  must  be  proved. 

The  natural  equality  of  man  is  written  on  his  heart  and  stamped  upon  his  visage 
by  the  author  of  his  being,  after  v/hose  "  express  image"  he  vvas  made. 

While  other  animals  look  to  the  earth ; 

homini  sxihlime  dedit  ad  sidera  tollere  vidtxis, — 

His  rights  spring  from  his  affections  and  his  wants,  and  these  he  derived  from  God, 
the  author  of  his  nature.  He  cannot  exist  out  of  society,  because  society  is  essen- 
tial to  his  existence.  His  first  relations  are  those  of  husband  and  father.  That  period, 
which  in  other  animals  is  ^hort,  of  dependence  on  a  parent's  care,  is  in  man  protract- 
ed for  purposes  the  most  beneficent.  The  infant  gathers  his  first  instruction  in  his 
mother's  lap.  His  best  virtues  he  imbibes  from  a  father's  care,  a  mother's  tender- 
ness. When  age  overcomes  the  parent,  the  son  re-pays  with  kindness,  the  kindness 
he  has  received.  If  the  crutch  drops  from  the  feeble  grasp  of  his  sire,  he  picks  it  up 
and  restores  it  to  his  trembling  hand.  Patriotism  is  but  filial  love  enlarged.  When 
we  think  of  our  country,  we  dwell  on  the  memory  of  our  early  years,  on  the  forms 
of  those  who  gave  us  our  being  and  watclied  over  its  imbecility.  When  they  are 
gone,  we  visit  their  remains,  and  from  the  unconscious  dead  imbibe  anew  the  inspi- 
ration of  their  virtues.  Does  not  the  savage  cherish  these  affections The  Tartar 
wanders  over  the  interminable  plains  of  Asia  from  climate  to  climate,  accompanied 
by  his  flocks  and  herds;  the  Indian  of  America  roams  through  forests,  yet  more  wild. 
But  they  re-visit  the  tombs  of  their  progenitors,  and  recount  to  their  children  the  story 
of  their  deeds. 

Are  not  these  natural  affections  at  the  foundation  of  all  the  moral  rights  and  du- 
ties of  man 

Sympathy,  is  it  not  as  natural  to  man  as  to  the  gregarioiis  animals  whom  he  gathers 
around  him  ?    Oat  of  these  feelings,  spring  the  elements  of  societj?'. 

Is  there  no  property  known  to  savage  life.?  Even  the  bird  defends  her  nest, as  the 
lion  does  his  den,  the  former  with  less  vigor,  but  with  equal  zeal.  The  hunter  deco- 
rates his  cave  with  the  fur  of  the  animals  he  has  killed ;  and  stores  away,  in  time  of 
plenty,  the  provisions  which  a  season  of  want  may  require.  He  has  bis  bow  and  ar- 
rows for  the  mountain  deer,  and  when  he  approaches  the  water  side,  his  canoe  and 
spear  for  the  finny  tribe.  In  contem.pt  of  danger,  he  traverses  the  land  and  the  wa- 
ter under  the  influence  of  the  same  feelings  which  prompt  the  civilized  man  to  build 
permanent  habitations,  to  till  the  land,  and  to  lay  up  the  fruits  of  autumn  for  the  ne- 
cessities of  winter.  How  can  labour  and  property  be  separated  ?  Property  is  at  once 
the  fruit  and  the  spring  of  labour.  The  author  of  the  Essay  on  the  Human  Under- 
standing, in  his  treatise  on  Civil  Government,  tells  us  emphatically,  that  he  means, 
"  hij  jyropertij"  to  denote  "  the  life,  liberty,  and  all  the  possessions  of  man." 

I  own  that  I  was  shocked,  said  Mr.  M.  when  on  opening  the  grammar  of  the  law, 
I  first  met  the  phrase  Rights  of  things."  Of  Rights  to  things,  I  could  readily  con- 
ceive. Though  things  are  external  to  man,  and  may  be  detached  from  him,  yet  the 
right  to  them  is  inseparably  connected  with  his  natural  as  well  as  social  condition, 
and  is,  as  personal,  as  his  right  to  locomotion,  the  exercise  of  which,  supposes  a  con- 
trol over  the  objects  around,  and  consequently  without  himself. 

If  it  be  contended  that  this  early  condition  of  man  is  not  a  state  of  nature,  but  of 
society,  I  am  content,  since  it  is  one  in  which  he  is  not  bound  to  acknowledge  a  su- 
perior right,  in  another,  to  control  his  conduct. 

The  existence  of  the  rights  which  he  enjoys,  supposes  a  correspondent  obhgation, 
on  his  part,  to  respect  the  similar  rights  of  others ;  and  hence  the  equality  of  right 
common  to  all. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


193 


The  insecurity  and  inconvenience  attendant  on  such  a  state  of  existence,  would 
render  it  of  transient  duration  ;  and  nature  who  has  given  faculties  to  man  which  are 
susceptible  of  improvement,  and  made  their  exercise  conducive  to  his  happiness,  can- 
not be  supposed  to  have  designed  his  continuance  in  a  state  unfitted  for  their  culti- 
vation. 

It  is  a  condition,  however,  in  which,  not  Locke  only,  but  all  moral,  and  nearly  all 
political  writers,  have  supposed  mafi  to  exist,  for  the  sake  of  establishing,  by  the  light 
of  reason,  his  moral  as  well  as  his  political  rights  and  obligations.  Upon  the  same 
basis  rest  the  treatises  that  have  been  made  upon  the  law  of  nature  and  of  nations, 
which  is  but  the  just  practical  application,  to  sovereign  States,  of  those  rules  which 
appertain  to  the  relations  of  man  in  a  state  of  nature.  Vattel  founds  his  code  of  in- 
ternational law,  on  the  philosophy  of  Wolfius  ;  and  deduces  the  equahty  of  States, 
from  the  same  source  from  wiiich  Locke  inferred  the  natural  freedom  and  indepen- 
dence of  man. 

I  trust  I  shall  be  pardoned  for  saying,  that  I  have  been  alarmed,  as  well  as  shocked, 
at  the  levity  with  which  the  great  apostle  of  English  liberty  and  his  doctrines  have 
been  treated  by  the  greater  part  of  our  adversaries  in  this  debate. 

They  reproach  us  with  deriding  the  wisdom  of  past  ages,  in  the  pursuit  of  novel 
doctrines,  wliile  they  claim,  for  themselves,  to  be  wiser  than  their  fathers  who  studied 
with  veneration  the  political  philosophy  of  Locke,  and  embodied  its  maxims  in  their 
Constitutions  of  Governmtait. 

He  wrote,  it  seems,  a  Comstitution  for  Carolina,  and  borrowed  for  his  titular  dis- 
tinctions, terms  of  American  and  German  origin — "  Caciques  and  Landgraves." 
Names  then  are  things  ;  and  the  queen  of  flovv'ers  is  less  sweet,  if  not  called,  the  rose. 
Locke  cherished  and  sustained  the  great  principles  of  liberty,  by  defending,  as  Milton, 
against  the  same  foe,  the  infamous  house  of  Stuart,  the  liberty  of  his  countrymen,  to 
frame  what  Government  they  pleased.  That  his  enemies  in  England,  as  well  as  Scot- 
land, were  at  that  time  neither  few  nor  impotent,  was  manifested  in  the  succeeding 
century  by  two  rebellions.  It  is  remarkable  that  his  cotemporary  and  antagonist.  Sir 
Robert  Fihner,  assailed  the  foundation  of  all  his  reasoning — the  maxim,  that  all  men 
are  by  nature  and  by  birth  equally  free,  with  the  same  argument  in  behalf  of  the  divine 
right  of  kings,  that  we  have  just  heard  used,  not  indeed  for  the  same  purpose,  but  in 
opposition  to  the  same  doctrine  of  natural  liberty,  which  we  infer  from  the  Bill  of 
Rights  prefixed  to  our  State  Constitution.  The  ingenious  member  from  Northamp- 
ton (Mr.  Upshur)  used  for  this  purpose  one  of  Filmer's  cases.  Ascending  to  the  cre- 
ation of  man,  he  historically  proved,  that  our  first  parents  formed  the  earliest  human 
society  of  which  there  is  any  record,  and  lie  asked  emphatically,  if  the  doctrine  of  the 
natural  equality  of  man  be  true,  icken  Cain  became  equal  to  Adam,  his  father  ?  If 
it  was  at  10,  at  15,  or  30  years  of  age."  I  use  the  very  words  of  the  interrogation.  In 
the  language  of  Locke,  I  reply  to  it;  when  Cain,  having  arrived  at  maturity,  no  lon- 
ger depended  on  his  father  for  subsistence  and  protection;  and  the  children,  also, 
of  Abel,  when  they  sustained  the  wants  and  soothed  the  infirmity  of  their  aged 
grandsire. 

The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield;  following  the  example  of  the  gentleman  from 
Northampton,  whose  argument  he  applauded,  has  cast  away  Cocker,  as  well  as  Locke, 
and  taken  up  with  Robinson  Crusoe  and  De  Foe,  as  his  authorities.  "  Robinson 
Crusoe,"'  it  seems,  saved  Friday's  life,  and  bound  Ins  heart  to  him  :"  he  gave  Friday 
bread,  and  bound  to  him  his  body."  I  have  heard  of  slavery,  arising  from  the  rights 
of  conquest,  and  if  my  memory  does  not  err,  Grotius,  I  think,  infers  its  legality  Irom 
the  power  of  the  victor,  to  slay  his  enemy.  But  I  never  before  heard  tliis  doctrine 
deduced  from  the  rights  of  humanity  and  the  obligation  of  gratitude. 

"  Robinson  Crusoe  gave  Friday  bread."  They  lived  alone,  but  had  commerce, 
introduced  arts  and  money  on  their  island,  Friday  might  justly  have  claimed,  for  his 
labor,  more  than  his  bread  :  and  if  he  preferred  any  other  master,  or  to  cease  from 
labor,  I  know  not  the  law,  human  or  divine,  which  would  have  held  him  in  subjection. 

If,  along  with  these  two  islanders,  ninety-nine  other  men  had  settled  and  formed 
one  society,  Friday  would  have  been  as  free  as  Robinson  Crusoe  himself. 

Not  one  of  these  settlers  would  have  been  bound,  by  any  will  but  his  own,  to  form, 
or  when  formed  by  others,  to  remain  in  this  societ}; ;  but  having  made  it,  the  majority 
of  its  members,  until  some  other  rule  were  provided,  would  of  necessity  govern  it,  as 
our  majority  does  the  proceedings  of  this  body.  So  is  governed  every  other  body  con- 
stituted like  it,  that  is,  without  having  a  different  rule  prescribed  for  its  government, 
by  higher  authority.  We  know  none,  except  that  of  God,  higher  than  the  power  of 
a  Convention  of  the  people,  which  is  the  power  of  the  people  themselves. 

We  have  adopted  the  rules  of  the  House  of  Delegates  to  regulate  our  proceedings  j 
but  we  were  not  bound  to  choose  these,  any  more  than  the  rules  of  the  House  of  Re- 
presentatives of  the  United  States,  or  of  the  Legislature  of  any  of  the  individual 
States.  We  might  have  taken  those  of  Massachusetts,  or  of  Georgia.  We  might 
have  required  a  majority  of  two-thirds  to  the  decision  of  any  question ;  for  the  elec- 

25 


194 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


tion  of  a  President,  or  of  a  Select  Committee.  But  even  the  rule  of  two-thirds,  ab- 
surd as  it  would  be  regarded,  would  derive  its  sanction  from  the  will  of  a  majority  of 
this  body.  This  doctrine  is  so  interwoven  in  all  our  thoughts,  habits  of  political  action, 
and  modes  of  judging,  that  to  deny  it,  is  to  wound  the  common  sense  of  every  portion 
of  the  American  people.  Let  us  return,  for  a  moment  to  the  island  of  De  Foe,  and 
the  newly  formed  society  we  left  there.  Suppose  they  desire  to  establish  a  political 
Government.  To  organize  its  Legislative,  Judicial,  and  Executive  Departments. 
Would  they  adopt  any  other  rule  of  proceeding  than  by  a  majority  ?  It  has  been  con- 
tended that,  in  our  Bill  of  Rights,  the  power  of  a  majority  to  change  the  Constitution 
is  limited  to  cases  wherein  the  public  good  requires  such  change.  But,  who  is  to 
judge  when  the  case  occurs  ?  The  public  good  is  made  up  of  the  good  of  all  the  indi- 
viduals who  compose  the  public.  Each  man  judges  for  himself  and  the  community, 
what  is  best,  and  the  majority  must  consequently  prevail,  it  being  the  majority  of  all 
the  judgments  so  formed,  and  having  the  sanction  of  a  majority  for  its  execution. 
This  sanction  is,  therefore,  moral  as  well  as  physical.  Suppose  the  %ettlers  on  the 
island  of  De  Foe,  to  have  brought  their  respective  families  with  them,  consisting  of 
women  and  children.  Count  these  or  not,  in  the  division  by  which  the  majority  is 
ascertained,  and  the  ratio  is  unchanged.  For  if,  from  any  two  numbers  having  a  given 
proportion  to  each  other,  there  be  taken  other  numbers  bearing  to  each  other  the  same 
ratio,  the  former  remains  unaltered.  And  so  will  it  be,  if,  in  hke  proportion  you  aug- 
ment those  numbers.  Women  undoubtedly  add  to  the  physical  force  of  society,  and 
so  do  infants.  I  have  voted  in  New  Jersey,  under  a  Constitution  of  Government, 
which  does  not  exclude  females  from  the  right  of  suffrage.  The  Constitution  has 
undergone  no  change  in  this  "State,  but  the  society  has.  No  woman  votes,  at  present, 
because  no  lady  will  go  to  the  polls. 

Casuistry  and  sophistry  may  perplex  the  doctrine  of  the  natural  freedom  and  equa- 
lity of  man,  and  of  the  consequent  right  of  the  iriajority  of  society,  already  formed,  to 
govern  it,  where  no  positive  agreement  has  otlierwise  ordered  }  but  the  common  sense 
of  mankind  will  indicate  their  essential  and  natural  rigiits. 

The  disorders  of  that  Parisian  mob,  which  overawed  the  deliberations  of  the  con- 
stituted authorities  of  France,  in  the  early  stage  of  her  late  revolution,  were  the  abuses 
of  liberty,  by  mere  brutal  force,  exerted  against  the  principles  by  which  its  leaders 
professed  to  iDe  guided. 

The  abuse  of  truth  is  no  argument  against  its  existence.  What  has  not  been  abused  ? 
A  cloud  is  now  passing  over  the  sun ;  but  is  that  glorious  luminary  extinguished 
The  gospel  of  peace  has  been  buried  in  superstition,  after  being  shrouded  m  blood  ; 
but  is  our  religion  false  ?  The  most  pj-ecions  things  are  abused,  and  for  the  very  rea- 
son that  they  are  so.  They  interest  the  passions  of  man  in  the  same  degree  that  they 
are  essential  to  his  happiness. 

Rejecting  the  autliorities  relied  upon  by  the  members  from  Northampton  and  from 
Chesterfield,  I  turn  to  others  in  favor  of  human  liberty,  which  I  deem  more  pertinent 
to  my  subject.  Since  the  Bill  of  Rights  prefixed  to  our  own  Constitution  is  deemed 
equivocal,  in  its  language,  by  some  of  our  opponents,  and  denied  the  validity  of  law,  by 
others,  I  ask  the  indulgence  of  the  Committee,  while  I  look  for  authorities,  less  ques- 
tionable, in  the  Constitutions  of  our  sister  States,  to  sustain  the  natural  equality  of 
man  and  the  rights  of  a  majority,  or,  in  the  language  of  my  friend  from  Frederick, 
(Mr.  Cooke,)  who  opened  this  debate,  the  jus  rnajoris. 

Before  I  consult  the  Constitutions  of  the  New  England  States,  I  must  be  allowed 
to  express  to  the  gentleman  from  Orange,  (Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour)  to  whose  lucid  style  of 
reasoning  I  always  attend  with  pleasure,  my  surprise  as  well  as  regret,  that  he  should 
have  so  highly  complimented  the  political  institutions  of  Massachusetts,  and  have,  at 
the  same  time,  denounced  so  unsparingly,  those  which  have  been  planted  "  in  the 
wilds  of  the  west"  by  the  emigrant  decendants  of  this  hardy  race  of  freemen. 

Ohio,  Indiana  and  Illinois,  are  but  vS,ivarms  from  the  fruitful  northern  hive,  as  Ken- 
tucky, Tennessee,  Alabama,  and  Mississippi,  are  descended  from  our  own  southern 
stock.  As  they  have  receded  farther  from  our  royal  charters,  and  framed  their  insti- 
tutions at  greater  leisure,  with  the  advantages  of  the  same  experience  and  untram- 
melled by  pre-existing  disabilities,  so  they  have  carried  out  our  principles  with  equal 
trutii  and  greater  simplicity. 

But  I  will  not  offend  the  taste  of  any  gentleman  who  may,  however  fastidiously, 
prefer  the  institutions  of  New  England  to  those  of  the  west. 

Massachusetts  formed  her  Constitution  as  our  fathers  did  ours,  in  a  period  of  war; 
but  after  expelhng  the  enemy  from  her  bosom:  and  the  leisure  with  which  she  pro- 
ceeded, is  manifested  by  tlie  time  which  she  consumed  in  completing  her  labor,  which 
was  begun  in  September,  1779,  and  ended  in  March,  1780. 

Her  Declaration  of  Rights  is  expressly  made  a  constituent  part  of  her  Constitution 
— and  the  first  article  of  it  affirms  tliat 

All  men  are  born  free  and  equal,  'and  have  certain  natural,  essential,  and  unali- 
enable rights/  among  which,  is  that  of  seeking  and  obtaining  their  happiness." 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


195 


The  preamble  sets  forth  The  end  of  the  institution.  mainteBance  and  administra- 
tion of  Government  to  be — to  secure  the  existence  of  the  bod}-  pohtic.  to  protect  it, 
and  to  furnish  the  individuals  who  compose  it,  with  the  power  of  eiij eying  in  safety 
and  tranquillity,  their  natural  rights." 

It  asserts,  that  The  bod}^  is  formed  by  a  voluntary  association  of  individuals.  It 
is  a  social  compact."  And  in  the  seventh  article  of  the  Declaration  of  Rights, 
these  doctrines  are  repeated  and  fortified  after  a  solemn  assertion,"  that  "  Govern- 
ment is  instituted  for  the  protection,  safety,  prosperit}'  and  happiness  of  the  people," 
by  declaring  that  the  people  alone  have  an  incontestible,  unalienable  and  indefeasi- 
ble right  to  institute  Government,  and  to  reform,  alter,  or  totally  change  the  same" — 
and  farther,  that 

All  elections  ought  to  be  free ;  and  all  the  inhabitants  of  this  Commonwealth, 
having  such  qualifications  as  they  shall  establish  by  their  frame  of  Government,  have 
an  equal  right  to  elect  ofiacers.  and  to  be  elected  for  public  empioj-ments." 

Article  10  asserts  that,  Each  individual  of  the  society  has  a  right  to  be  protected 
by  it,  in  the  enjoyment  of  his  life,  liberty  and  propertv,  according  to  the  standing 
laws.  He  is  obliged,  consequently,  to  contribute  his  share  to  the  expense  of  their 
protection,  to  give  his  personal  ser'^nce  or  an  equivalent,  when  necessary."  Here  we 
see  the  origin  of  taxation.  Its  qualification  comes  next.  But  no  part  of  the  pro- 
perty of  an  individual  can  with  justice  be  taken  from  him.  or  applied  to  the  pubhc 
use,  without  liis  own  consent,  or  that  of  the  representative  body  of  the  people." 

Again,  we  read — ^'  The  people  have  a  right,  in  an  orderly  and  peaceable  manner,  to 
assemble  to  consult  upon  the  common  good  :  give  instructions  to  their  representa- 
tives." How  is  such  instruction  to  be  given  By  a  representation  of  property.-* 
On  the  principles  of  a  mixed  basis,  or  by  a  majority  of  those  authorised  to  give  it? 
And  if  the  majority  of  the  voters  may  overrvde  tlie  representative  by  instructions, 
what  becomes  of  the  supposed  majority  of  interests,  or  of  propertij  in  Legislation.' 

The  Constitution  of  New  Hampshire,  as  altered  and  amended  by  a  Convention  of 
Delegates  in  February,  17.Q2.  affirms  in  the  first  part  of  the  first  article,  nearly  in  the 
languaofe  of  Massachusetts,  that all  men  are  born  equally  free  and  independent: 
Therefore,  all  government,  of  right,  originates  from  the  people,  is  founded  in  mnsent 
and  instituted  for  the  general  good." 

Art.  2.  All  men  have  certain,  natural,  essential  and  inherent  rights— among 
which  are  the  enjoying  and  defending  life  and  liberty  :  acquiring,  possessing  and  pro- 
tecting property :  and  in  a  word,  of  seeking  and  obtaining  happiness. 

"  Art.  3.  When  men  enter  into  a  state  of  society,  they  surrender  up  some  of  their 
natural  rigJits,  to  that  society,  in  order  to  ensure  the  protection  of  others  ;  and  without 
such  an  equivalent,  the  surrender  is  void. 

Art  4=  Among  the  natural  riofhts,  some  are,  in  their  very  nature,  unahenable,  be- 
cause no  equivalent  can  be  given  or  received  for  them.  Of  this  kind  are  the  rights 
of  conscience. 

"  Art.  11.  All  elections  ought  to  be  free,  and  every  inhabitant  of  the  State,  having 
the  proper  qualifications,  has  an  equal  right  to  elect  and  be  elected  into  office." 

The  Constitution  of  Vermont  was  adopted  Jul}'  4th,  1793. 

The  first  chapter  of  the  first  article,  declares  : 
That  all  men  are  born  equally  free  and  independent,  and  have  certain  nattiral,  in- 
herent and  unalienable  rights,  among  which  are  the  enjoying  and  defending  life  and 
liberty,  acquiring,  possessing  and  protecting  property,  and  pursuing  and  obtaining 
happiness  and  safety." 

The  Charter  of  Rhode  Island  was  granted  b}-  King  Charles  II.  in  the  fourteenth 
year  of  his  reign. 

The  inhabitants  of  this  State  are  now,  according  to  the  argument  of  the  gentleman 
from  Chesterfield,  in  reply  to  that  of  my  friend  from -Brooke,  the  subjects  of  George 
IV.  since  he  contended,  that  if  the  Constitution  of  Viro-inia.  be  void,  the  people  of 
Virginia  are  so ;  having,  as  he  supposes,  no  other  form  of  Government  than  that  of 
tlieir  Royal  Charter. 

From  this  dilemma,  however,  if  the  Declaration  of  Independence  did  not  relieve 
them,  I  presume  the  treaty  of  peace  did,  which  ended  the  war  of  the  revolution  with 
the  admission  of  that  Independence,  by  the  only  nation  that  had  an  interest  in  deny- 
ing it. 

The  Constitution  of  Connecticut  also  contains  one  of  those  silly  instruments,  called 
a  Declaration  of  Rights.  It  begins,  too,  in  a  most  exceptionable  manner,  for  it  uses 
in  contradiction  of  all  the  arguments  we  have  heard,  to  prove  that  there  are  no  prin- 
ciples of  Government,  the  following  language  as  a  preamble  to  its  very  first  article  : 

■'•  That  the  great  and  essential  principles  of  liberty  and  free  Government  may  be  re- 
cognized and  established — we  (the  people  of  Connecticut)  declare — That  all  men,  when 
they  form  a  social  compact,  are  equal  in  rights."  What  rights  ?  Rights  antecedent  to 
the  compact,  I  presume.  "  And  that  no  nian,  or  set  of  men,  are  entitled  to  exclusive 
public  emoluments  or  privileges  from  the  community."    The  following  section  of  tliis 


196 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


article  affirms,  in  the  language  of  the  Constitutions  I  have  already  noticed — That  all 
political  power  is  inherent  in  the  people,  and  all  free  Governments  are  founded  on 
their  authority,  and  instituted  for  their  benefit:  and  that  they  have,  at  all  times,  an 
undeniable  and  indefeasible  right  to  alter  their  form  of  Government,  in  such  manner, 
as  they  may  think  expedient." 

Both  branches  of  the  Legislature  of  this  State,  consist  of  members  chosen  annu- 
ally, by  the  electors,  who  may  be  any  white  male  citizen  of  the  United  States,  above 
twenty-one  years  of  age,  having  gained  a  settlement  in  the  State,  resided  six  months 
before  the  election  at  which  he  offers  to  vote  in  the  town,  in  which  such  election  is 
held,  and  shall  have  paid,  if  liable  thereto,  a  State  tax  within  the  past  year. 

The  Senate  consists  of  twelve  members,  elected  by  the  greatest  number  of  votes 
of  the  whole  people,  or  by  a  general  ticket. 

The  Constitution  of  New  York  contains  no  Bill  or  Declaration  of  Rights ;  but  it  af- 
fords a  practical  exem.phfication  of  all  the  great  maxims  of  natural  liberty  asserted, 
by  the  States  of  New-England,  from  which  the  far  greater  part  of  her  own  population 
has  been  derived. 

It  establishes  and  appropriates  certain  taxes  on  salt,  and  certain  auction  duties,  that 
then  yielded  the  State  more  than  half  the  annual  revenue,  but  it  allows  no  represen- 
tation for  either. 

It  establishes  the  right  of  suffrage  on  a  very  broad  basis,  requiring  a  freehold  quali- 
fication only  in  persons  of  colour.  The  Senate  which  it  creates,  consists  of  thirty-two 
members,  for  the  election  of  whom  it  divides  the  territory  of  the  State  into  eight  dis- 
tricts, with  reference  exclusively  to  the  number  of  their  inhabitants,  to  be  ascertained 
by  an  enumeration  to  be  made  once  in  every  ten  years. 

The  Assembly  consists  of  one  hundred  and  twenty-eight  members  to  be  apportioned 
among  the  several  counties  of  the  State.,  according  to  the  number  of  their  respective 
inhaJjitants.  It  moreover  provides,  that  every  county  heretofore  established  and  sepa- 
rately organized,  shall  always  be  entitled  to  one  member  of  the  Assembly  ;  but  no  new 
county  shall  hereafter  be  erected,  unless  its  population  shall  entitle  it  to  a  member. 
This  is  rather  an  apparent  than  real,  and  at  most  but  a  transient  qualification  of  equal 
representation  as  will  be  seen,  by  recurring  to  the  actual  population  of  the  smallest 
county  in  this  State,  and  comparing  the  extent  of  its  fast  peopling  territory,  with  that 
of  the  oldest  and  most  populous  counties. 

The  Constitution  of  New  Jersey  was  made  while  she  recognized  her  Colonial  de- 
pendence on  Great  Britain  ;  and  the  only  subsequent  alteration  of  it  has  been  effected 
by  a  law,  substituting  in  its  language,  where  the  word  "  Colony'  occurs,  the  word 
"  State." 

It  is  very  nearly  as  ancient,  as  that  of  Virginia.  But  although  ratified  two  days 
only,  before  the  Declaration  of  Independence  by  Congress,  it  expressly  provides  that 
it  shall  be  void  in  the  event  of  a  reconciliation  with  Great  Britain.  By  her  persever- 
ing struggle,  through  the  calamities  of  the  common  war,  waged  in  support  of  the 
principles,  for  which  we  now  contend  in  debate — this  gallant  State,  manifested  the 
value,  which  she  set  on  those  principles,  by  her  deeds,  if  not  by  the  terms  of  her  Con- 
stitution. 

The  Constitution  of  Pennsylvania  made  in  1790,  is  obnoxious  both  in  its  principles, 
and  its  details,  to  the  criticism  of  all  the  gentlemen  who  have  advocated  the  basis  of 
taxation,  and  numbers,  as  the  proper  ground  of  representation.  The  9th  article,  has 
the  following  remarkable  preamble,  "  That  the  general,  great  and  essential  principles 
of  liberty  and  free  Government,  may  be  recognized  and  unalterably  established,  we 
declare  : 

I.  "  That  all  men  are  horn  equally  free  and  independent,  and  have  certain  iriherevt 
and  indefeasible  rights,  among  which,  are  those  of  enjoying  and  defending  life  and 
liberty ;  of  acquiring  and  protecting  property  and  reputation,  and  of  pursuing  their 
own  happiness. 

II.  "  That  all  power  is  inherent  in  the  people,  and  all  free  Governments  are  founded 
on  their  authority,  and  instituted  for  their  peace,  safety  and  happiness.  For  the  ad- 
vancement of  those  ends,  they  have,  at  all  times,  . an  unalienable,  and  indefeasible  right, 
to  alter,  reform,  or  abolish  their  Government,  in  such  manner  as  they  may  think 
proper." 

In  giving  effect  to  these  principles,  the  Constitution  of  this  State,  provides  that  the 
number  of  representatives  of  the  popular  branch  of  her  Legislature  shall  be  appoi-- 
tioned  according  to  the  number  of  taxable  inhabitants,  without  respect  to  the  sum  of 
tax  paid  by  each,  among  the  city  of  Philadelphia,  and  the  several  counties  of  the 
Commonwealth,  in  conformity  with  an  examination  to  be  made  once  in  seven  years. 
_  The  Senate  consists  of  members  to  be  chosen  in  districts,  after  a  periodical  appor- 
tionment to  the  number  of  taxable  inhabitants  in  each  district. 

While  the  population  of  Philadelphia,  is  not  denied  its  proportional  weight  in  the 
Councils  of  Pennsylvania,  no  respect  is  paid  to  the  superior  wealth  of  that  city, 
which  yields  a  full  moiety  of  the  revenue  of  the  State,  in  the  shape  of  taxes. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


197 


To  this  State,  belongs,  moreover,  the  glory  of  having  preceded  Virginia,  more  than 
a  century,  in  asserting" the  great  principles  of  religious  freedom. 

The  people  of  Delaware,  the  least  State  in  the  Union,  fall  not  behind  their  more 
powerful  fellow-citizens,  in  asserting  the  natural  rights  of  man,  both  civil,  and  religious. 

In  their  Constitution  made  in  17'j2— "  We,"  say  tlie  people  of  this  Commonwealth, 
"  hereby  ordain  and  establish  this  Constitution  of  Government  for  the  State  of  De- 
laware. ,      .  ,  1  •    •  J 

"  Through  divine  goodness,  all  men  have  by  nature  the  rights  of  worshippmg  and 
serving  their  Creator  according  to  the  dictates  of  their  consciences,  of  enjoying  and 
defending  life  and  liberty,  of  acquiring  and  protecting  reputation  and  property,  and,  in 
general,  of  attaining  objects  suitable  to  their  condition,  without  injury  by  one  to 
another  ;  and  as  thele  rights  are  essential  to  their  welfare,  for  the  due  exercise  there- 
of, power  is  inherent  inlhem  ;  and,  therefore,  all  just  authority  in  the  institutions  of 
political  society,  is  derived  from  the  people,  and  established  with  their  consent,  to  ad- 
vance their  happiness  :  and  they  may,  for  this  end,  as  circumstances  require,  from 
time  to  time,  alter  their  Constitution  of  Government." 

The  Constitution  of  Maryland  dates  its  existence  from  1776,  the  most  memorable 
year  of  the  war  of  ihe  revolution,  and  maintains,  the  principles  which  gave  rise  to  it, 
in  the  following  declaration  :  "  We,  the  Delegates  of  jMaryland  in  free  and  full  Con- 
vention assembled" — declare,  That  all  Government  of  right,  originates  from  the 
people,  is  founded  in  compact  only,  and  instituted  solely  for  the  good  of  the  icliole 

"  That  all  persons  invested  with  the  Legislative  or  Executive  powers  of  Govern- 
ment, are  the  trustees  of  the  public,  and  as  such,  accountable  for  their  conduct; 
wherefore,  whenever  the  ends  of  government  are  perverted,  and  the  public  liberty  ^ 
manifestly  endangered,  and  all  other  means  of  redress  are  ineffectual,  the  people 
may,  and  of  rigiit  ought  to,  reform  the  old,  or  establish  a  new  Government.  The 
doctrine  of  non-resistance  against  arbitrary  power  and  oppression,  is  absurd,  slavish, 
and  destructive  of  the  good  and  happiness  of  mankind. 

That  the  right,  in  the  people,  to  participate  in  the  Legislature,  is  the  best  securi- 
ty of  liberty,  and  the  foundation  of  all  free  Government;  for  this  purpose,  elections 
ouo-ht  to  be  free  and  frequent,  and  every  man  having  property  in,  a  common  interest 
with,  and  attachment  to,  the  community,  ought  to  have  a  Right  of  Suffrage." 

I  fear,  said  ^Ir.  M.  that  I  have  w^earied  the  attention  of  llie  Committee,  before  I 
have  reached  the  Bill  of  Rights  of  our  own  Constitution,  if  a  Bill  of  Rights  and  Consti- 
tution we  have,  as  I  myself  do  not  doubt,  whatever  may  have  been  the  defect  of  their 
origin.  That  Bill  of  Rights  is  so  engraven  on  the  memory  of  every  member  of  this 
Committee,  and  has  been  so  often  referred  to  in  this  debate,  that  I  will  not  read  it. 
But  I  protest  against  that  construction  of  the  sacred  truths  which  it  contains,  which 
seeks  to  impair  their  force,  by  combining  them  with  the  actual  details  of  the  Consti- 
tution. 

The  causes  of  the  imperfections  of  the  machine  of  Government,  were  truly  and  elo- 
quently unfolded,  by  my  friend  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Cooke.)  But  the  presence  of 
danger,  which  may  obstruct  the  labour  of  the  most  skilful  artist  in  the  fabrication  of  a 
complicated  engine,  need  not  impair  his  judgment  of  the  plan  by  which  he  works. 
A  re-organization  of  the  counties  of  Virginia,  or  a  Census  of  her  population,  at  a  time 
when  no  Census  had  ever  been  taken,  of  any  people  in  modern  Europe,  or,  for  aught 
I  know,  in  modern  times;  and  at  such  a  time — when  a  threatened  invasion,  by  a  fo- 
reign and  most  formidable  enemy ,  was  hourly  expected  to  drive  the  people  from  their 
homes,  and  to  waste  their  estates,  was  not  within  the  compass  of  possible  events.  But, 
did  it  follow,  that  the  great  principles  of  freedom,  for  which  the  framers  of  the  Con- 
stitution contended,  in  battle  as  well  as  in  debate,  should  not  be  profoundly  understood 
and  ably  elucidated?  Was  not  the  occasion  calculated  to  quicken  and  invigorate  all 
the  operations  of  the  human  intellect;  and  although  it  might  embarrass  the  movements 
of  the  principal  actors,  to  enlighten,  strengthen,  and  confirm  their  purpose  1 

Were  the  framers  of  our  Constitution  but  half  educated,  as  it  is  contended,  all  their 
descendants  are?  In  such  an  age,  truth  flashes  from  mind  to  mind,  with  electric  ac- 
tivity, and  a  force  irresistible.  Hence,  we  perceive  not  merel}^  a  conformit}'  of  opi- 
nion, but  an  identity  of  language,  in  all  the  State  Constitutions  of  that  period,  from 
Massachusetts  to  Georgia,  in  relation  to  the  foundation  of  my  present  argument,  the 
natural  equality  in  which  men  enter  society,  and  the  right  of  a  majority  of  numbers 
to  govern. 

The  direct  tendency,  the  obvious  as  well  as  declared  purpose  of  the  basis  of  repre- 
sentation, adopted  by  the  Legislative  Committee,  is  to  enable  such  a  majority  of  the 
people  of  Virginia  to  govern  this  Commonwealth,  as,  of  right,  they  should. 

The  member  from  Chesterfield,  recurring  to  the  same  period  with  myself,  and  rea- 
soning from  a  supposed  inequality  in  the  present  taxes  of  this  Commonwealth,  invokes 
the  principles  of  the  Revolution  to  his  aid.  Our  quarrel  with  the  mother  country,  he, 
along  with  several  of  his  predecessors,  earnestly  tells  us,  grew  out  of  the  violation  of 


198 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


the  principle,  for  which  he  and  they  are  now  contending,  "  of  not  being  taxed  with- 
out their  consent,"  which  they  so  define  as  to  require  a  certain  proportion  between 
taxation  and  representation.  On  the  other  hand,  it  has  been  insisted  by  my  friend 
from  Brooke,  that  the  Revolution  sprung  from  a  total  denial,  on  the  part  of  the  Colo- 
nies, of  the  right  of  the  British  Parhament,  to  bind  them  to  an  obedience  of  any  laws 
whatever,  to  which  they  had  not  given  their  assent,  by  their  Colonial  Legislatures. 

No  two  gentlemen  have  precisely  agreed  on  this  topic ;  and  yet,  it  seems  to  me,  that 
none  have  erred  in  their  statements  so  tar  as  they  have  severally  gone.  Their  disagree- 
ments have  arisen  from  their  severally  referring  to  different  periods  of  a  contest  of  long 
duration.  It  began  with  the  memorable  Stamp  Act,  which  imposed  a  tax  to  operate  in 
the  interior  of  each  Colony,  mingling  with  all  the  transactions  of  life.  The  tax  was 
resisted,  in  argument,  on  both  sides  of  the  Atlantic,  on  the  ground,  that  the  Colonies 
were  not  represented  in  the  Parliament  of  England;  and,  therefore,  should  not  be  tax- 
ed. The  stamps  were  sent  to  America — a  mob  at  Williamsburg  threatened  their  de- 
struction. The  stamp-master  resigned  his  station  almost  as  soon  as  he  landed;  the 
city  of  Williamsburg  was  illuminated;  the  stamps  re-shipped,  and  the  act  imposing 
them,  shortly  after  rescinded. 

The  elder  Pitt,  and  his  eloquent  co-adjutors,  in  opposition  to  the  British  ministry, 
of  that  day,  contended,  that  the  mother  country  had  a  right  to  bind  the  Colonies  in 
all  cases  whatever  of  legislation,  but  that  taxation  was  not  legislation.  That  taxes 
were  a  free  grant  of  money,  by  the  Commons,  to  the  Crown;  and  that,  being  so,  the 
Commons  of  England  could  not  grant  away  the  money  of  the  people  of  America. 

Fortunately,  as  the  event  proved  for  us,  but  unluckily  for  Great  Britain,  Charles 
Townsend  discovered  a  mode  of  obviating  the  objection  to  the  Stamp  Act,  by  the  ex- 
ercise of  what,  he  considered,  the  unquestioned  right  of  Parliament  to  regulate  the 
trade  between  the  Colonies  and  the  mother  country,  which  he  deemed  an  olfice  of  or- 
dinary legislation.  Eience  the  imposition  of  a  duty  on  tea,  payable  on  being  landed 
at  the  place  of  importation. 

The  Colonies  found  that  they  had  nothing  to  gain  by  this  distinction,  since  money 
could  as  well  be  drawn  from  their  pockets,  by  commercial  regulations,  which  were 
laws,  as  by  taxation  considered  as,  what  few  taxes  ever  are,  tiie  free  grants  of  those 
by  whom  they  are  paid.  They  discovered,  in  fact,  what  their  friends,  for  some  time, 
appeared  not  to  have  contemplated,  on  the  other  side  of  the  Atlantic,  that  to  avoid 
taxation  in  some  shape  or  other,  they  must  maintain  the  doctrine  that  the  British  Par- 
liament had  a  right  to  bind  them,  in  no  shape  whatever,  without  their  consent:  That 
the  Union  of  the  Empire  on  both  sides  of  the  Atlantic,  was,  as  that  of  Scotland  with 
England,  in  the  Crown,  and,  not  in  the  Parliament.  My  friend  from  Brooke  had,  in 
his  able  argument,  very  truly  described  this  stage  of  the  controversy,  at  which,  and 
not  before,  the  tender  of  a  representation  in  Parliament  was  made,  to  America,  by 
England,  and  scornfully,  as  well  as  wisely  rejected.  Had  a  similar  effort,  at  reconci- 
liation, been  made,  at  the  period  of  the  repeal  of  the  Stamp  Act,  a  different  result  might 
have  happened,  and  the  subsequent  controversy  delayed,  if  not  prevented.  To  this 
early  stage  of  the  contest,  between  England  and  her  Colonies,  the  gentlemen  from 
Northampton,  (Mr.  Upshur,)  from  Hanover,  (Mr.  Morris,)  and  from  Chesterfield,  (Mr. 
Leigh,)  had  adverted  in  aid  of  their  common  opposition  to  the  resolution  in  debate. 

The  last  of  these  gentlemen  has  pushed  the  inference,  which  he  deduced  from  the 
doctrine  of  the  former  opposition  in  England,  relative  to  the  nature  of  taxation,  to  a 
length  as  extravagant  in  some  of  its  consequences,  as  inconsistent  with  the  modern 
notion  of  taxation,  on  both  sides  of  the  Atlantic. 

Are  we  to  go  back  to  the  declension  of  the  Feudal  system,  imported  from  Norman- 
dy, or  yet  farther,  to  the  Saxon  Wittenagemote,  to  learn  from  the  antiquities  of  the 
English  Government  the  nature  of  taxation  in  America.?  That  taxes,  are  not  the  free 
grants  of  those  who  pay  them,  in  a  country  where  every  thing  is  taxed  from  the  cra- 
dle to  the  coffin  ?  Where  the  exciseman  seals  up  the  key-hole  of  the  door  of  the  ware- 
house of  the  manufacturer,  and  carries  away  the  key  in  his  pocket ! 

That  the  House  of  Commons,  gradually  acquired  the  rank  of  a  co-ordinate  branch 
of  the  English  Parliament,  by  firmly  uniting  to  their  grants  of  money  to  the  Crown, 
the  petitions  of  their  constituents,  for  a  redress  of  grievances,  is  an  historical  fact, 
which  can  reflect  no  light  on  the  path  of  our  present  enquiry. 

The  legislative  pov/er  of  the  Commons,  is  established  in  England,  on  the  principles 
of  the  revolution  of  1688.  Taxation  is  a  branch  of  legislative  power,  and  was  the  in- 
strument of  its  acquisition.  In  the  last  relation,  it  bears,  however,  no  necessary  afl5- 
nity  to  the  end  which  it  accomplished.  Who  would  trace  to  Syria  or  Spain,  the  ori- 
gin of  Magna  Charta,  because  the  sword  blades  of  the  Barons,  who  assembled  at  Run- 
nimeads  under  the  frowning  turrets  of  Windsor,  may  have  been  forged  at  Damascus  or 
Toledo  ?  Shall  we,  at  this  day,  repair  to  the  British  House  of  Commons  to  learn  ihe 
true  character  of  Legislative  power  in  America  ?  An  instructive  lesson  it  might  teach 
us,  against  the  inequality  of  representation  of  which  we  so  justly  complain.  The  cor- 
ruption to  which  it  has  given  rise,  is  no  longer  confined  to  the  rotten  boroughs  in  the 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


199 


ffift  of  the  nobility,  but  extends  to  the  vitals  of  the  people  Turn  to  the  life  of  Shen- 
dan  hv  More,  and  you  may  read  this  truth,  in  the  reproaches  which  he  makes  to  his 
friends,  that  they  will  not  supply  him  with  funds  to  purchase  a  seat  m  Parliament. 
There,  indeed,  a  representative  has  to  buy  his  constituents,  bometimes  to  travel 
throucrh  the  kingdom  to  find  them. 

In  attemptina-  to  assimilate  the  present  controversy  for  pohtical  power  between  dif- 
ferent parts  of  diis  Commonwealth,  to  that  which  sul^sisted  between  England  and 
her  Colonies  in  the  war  of  the  revolution,  the  member  from  Chesterfield  rehes  on  a 
supposed  inequality  in  the  distribution  of  the  taxes  of  the  Commonwealth.  He  would 
iustifv  the  lowland  country,  which  is  over-represented,  m  mamtammg  a  political 
power  disproportionate  to  the  numbers  of  its  wliite  population,  on  the  ground  that  it 
is  at  present  over-taxed.  r  ■  ^ 

To  sustain  his  position,  he  should  show  that  the  pubhc  taxes  are  not  tairly  propor- 
tioned to  the  abihty  of  those  by  whom  they  are  paid— and  could  he  show  this,  the 
responsibility,  for  such  injustice",  would  rest,  not  with  those  who  claim  a  new  appor- 
tionment of  the  legislative  power  of  the  Government,  but  with  those  who  have  so 
long  ruled  the  Commonwealth. 

It  may  not  be  amiss  to  examine  the  facts  from  which  this  supposed  inequality  ot 
taxation  is  deduced.  With  this  view,  I  beg  leave  to  recall  the  attention  of  the  Com- 
mittee to  some  of  those  which  I  adduced,  for  another  purpose,  in  an  early  stage  of 
my  argument.  The  revenue  of  this  Commonwealth,  except  the  income  of  the  funds 
for  Infernal  Improvement  and  Education,  was  before  the  last  war,  as  it  has  been  ever 
since  the  peace,  principally  drawn  from  three  sources  :  taxes  on  land,  slaves  and 
horses. 

If  the  actual  value  of  the  lands  and  lots  assessed  for  taxation,  be  now  assumed  to  be 
$90,000,000;  of  the  slaves,  amounting  in  number  to  450,000,  to  be  fG7,500,000; 
and  of  273,000  horses,  at  50  dollars  each,  to  be  $13,650,000;  then  a  comparison  of 
the  revenue  derived  from  each  of  these  sources  in  the  last  year,  will  by  no  means 
prove  that  the  pubhc  burthens  are  unequally  distributed,  to  the  prejudice  of  the  slave- 
holder. 

The  revenue  charged  upon  this  peculiar  capital  will  be  found  to  be  less  than  that 
charged  upon  horses,  and  still  less  than  that  charged  upon  lands,  estimating  each  sub- 
ject of  taxation  at  its  fair  value.  For  evidence  of  this,  I  refer  to  a  table  of  the  com- 
parative revenue  on  each  of  these  subjects  since  the  equalizing  land-tax  and  Sena- 
torial district  act  of  1817,  which  went  into  complete  operation  in  1820. 

For  the  first  four  years  of  the  succeeding  period,  the  average  product  of  the  land- 
tax,  was  $  181,000,  of  the  slave-tax  $  159,000,  and  of  the  horse-tax  $  38,000. 

The  revenue  from  these  sources,  for  the  current  year,  in  round  numbers,  is,  by  the 
table  supplied  me,  175,000  dollars  on  lands,  97,000  on  slaves,  and  33,000  on  horses. 
Notwithstanding  all  that  has  been  said  in  the  debate,  these  facts  bear  me  out  in  the 
position,  that  in  the  current  year,  the  capital  in  slaves  is  taxed  less  than  that  in  land. 

An  error  pervades  all  the  reasoning  of  our  adversaries  on  this  subject,  in  consider- 
ing the  slave-tax  as  a  tax  on  a  certain  territory  rather  than  on  a  productive  property ; 
of  the  tax  upon  which,  no  complaint  would  be  made,  were  it  dispersed  over  the  sur- 
face of  the  Commonwealth.  For  it  is  not  easy  to  conceive  an  objection  to  a  tax  on 
this  property  that  might  not  be  made  with  equal  propriety  to  any  other  tax  whatever. 
It  is  founded  as  all  taxes  should  be,  on  the  ability  of  the  persons  taxed  ;  and  that 
ability  is  derived  from  the  productiveness  of  this  species  of  stock.  The  tables  of  the 
natural  growth  of  this  population  demonstrate,  when  compared  with  the  increase  of 
its  numbers  in  the  Commonwealth,  for  twenty  years  past,  that  an  annual  revenue  of 
not  less  than  a  million  and  a  half  of  dollars  is  derived  from  the  exportation  of  a  part 
of  that  increase  :  While  llie  proprietors  of  the  lands  of.  the  Commonwealth,  contri- 
buting a  greater  tax  in  proportion  to  the  actual  value  of  those  lands,  liave  derived  no 
correspondent  profit  from  the  gradual  augmentation  of  that  value.  The  revenue  of 
every  country  consists  of  the  income  of  its  land,  its  labour,  and  its  stock.  Taxation 
can  "draw  from  that  income  without  oppression,  only  part  of  what  remains,  after  sus- 
taining the  capital  of  every  description  which  produces  it,  and  the  labour  engaged  in 
its  production.  If  the  numbers  of  the  labourers  were  an  exact  measure  of  this  in- 
come, taxation  to  be  equal,  should  be  proportioned  to  the  aggregate  number  of  all  the 
slaves  and  free  labourers  of  a  country.  But,  the  surplus  which  the  former  are  able  to 
supply  after  sustaining  themselves,  is,  in  fact,  greater  in  proportion  as  their  wants  are 
less  costly,  and  their  natural  increase  conspires  with  the  produce  of  their  labour  to 
swell  the  income  of  the  proprietor  who  is  chargeable  with  the  tax  they  pay. 

But  while  I  du  not  admit,  but  on  the  contrary,  am  prepared  to  disprove  that  injustice 
has  hitherto  been  practised"  towards  the  proprietors  of  this  description  of  property,  1 
am  not  only  desirous,  but  deem  it  practicable  to  afford  to  them  a  protection  from  the 
oppression  which  they  apprehend. 

I  am  aware,  Mr.  Chairman,  said  Mr.  M.  of  the  extreme  sensibility,  with  which 
the  members  of  this  body,  who  are  opposed  to  the  resolution  on  your  table,  receive 


200 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


every  suggestion  of  a  readiness  on  our  part,  to  provide,  by  the  Constitution  itself,  a 
security  against  the  danger  of  unequal  taxation.  In  whatever  spirit  it  may  be  ac- 
cepted, I  am  however  prepared  to  submit  a  guarantee,  which,  to  my  poor  judgment, 
will  be  both  just  in  itself  and  adequate  to  its  end.  It  will  consist  in  a  Constitutional 
provision,  that  no  tax  on  slaves  shall  ever  be  imposed,  without  a  general  tax  on  lands 
and  horses  :  and  that  every  tax  which  may  be  levied  on  those  subjects,  shall  be  found- 
ed on  a  fair  assessment  of  their  value,  and  bear  to  that  value  an  uniform  proportion. 

Compare  the  security  which  such  a  provision,  would  aftbrd,  with  that  supplied  by  the 
Constitution  ©f  the  United  States,  to  the  same  property,  in  the  apportionment  of  all 
direct  taxes  ;  and  will  any  question  be  made  of  the  superiority  of  the  former  ?  How 
are  direct  taxes,  which  are  to  be  apportioned  among  the  States,  according  to  their 
respective  representation,  distinguishable  from  indirect  taxes,  which  are  required  to 
be  uniform  In  the  judgment  of  the  Supreme  Court,  in  the  case  of  the  United 
States  and  Hilton,  the  boundaries  of  these  two  species  of  taxation,  are  designated 
mainly  by  reference  to  a  single  paragraph  from  the  author  of  the  Wealth  of  INations. 
This  was  the  case  of  the  carriage  tax,  which  the  court  regarded  as  a  tax,  not  on  capi- 
tal, but  expenditure,  or  income,  which  is  commonly  its  measure.  Some  of  the  judges 
doubt  their  own  ability  to  lay  down  characteristic  distinctions  which  shall  invariably 
serve  to  denote  the  appropriate  subjects  of  these  different  taxes,  required  by  the  Con- 
stitution to  be  differently  levied.  The  clause,  on  the  other  hand,  which  I  propose  as 
a  security  to  the  proprietor  of  slaves,  against  unequal  taxation,  if  admitted  into  the 
Constitution,  could  receive  but  one  construction,  which  there  is  not  a  magistrate  in 
Virginia  who  would  hesitate  to  pronounce,  and  by  which,  any  law  passed,  in  viola- 
tion of  it,  would  be  promptly  arrested.  A  similar  security,  T  would  leave  it  to  those, 
who  may  deem  it  essential  to  dictate,  for  the  protection  of  the  tenure  of  this  propert}'-. 
It  will  be  repeated, that  these  are  but  paper  guarantees" — "  mere  parchment."  And 
what  else  have  we  for  our  lives  and  our  liberty  ?  The  trial  by  jury,  the  writ  of  ha- 
beas corpus,  the  freedom  of  speech,  the  liberty  of  the  press,  the  rights  of  conscience, 
do  they  not  all  rest  for  their  safety  on  the  solemn  compact  of  the  people  with  each 
other,  contained  in  the  Constitution  of  the  State,  and  of  the  United  States  ? 

When  corruption  and  licentiousness  shall  have  destroyed  all  the  security  which  we 
derive  from  the  Constitution,  there  will  remain  nothing  else  to  preserve,  or  worthy  of 
preservation.  The  proposed  basis  of  free  white  population  is  represented,  by  our  op- 
ponents, as  an  attempt  to  divorce  property,  from  power.  They  speak,  as  if  the  whole 
property  of  the  Commonwealth  belonged  exclusively  to  their  constituents,  and  was 
about  to  be  wrested  from  them  by  violence.  The  member  from  Chesterfield  emphati- 
cally asserts,  that  what  is  his,  is  his.  It  is  his,  Sir,  truly,  but  subject  to  the  lawful 
claims  of  the  Government,  by  which  it  is  protected.  Those  claims  are  commensurate 
with  the  necessities  of  the  Commonwealth,  and  the  ability  of  its  citizens  to  comply 
with  them  under  a  just  and  equal  system  of  contribution. 

Gentlemen  imagine  that  a  just  and  equal  distribution  of  political  power  will  expose 
all  property  to  destruction.  They  have  drawn  lines  across  the  Commonwealth,  and 
exclaim,  there,  all  is  danger  ;  here,  all  is  security  ;  as  if  they  apprehended,  from  the 
West,  an  irruption  of  barbarians,  as  soon  as  a  new  basis  of  political  power  may  be 

Sir,  no  basis  of  representation  can  be  formed,  which  v/ill  transfer  the  power  of  this 
Government  from  the  hands  of  the  slave-holding  population,  m  less  than  twenty 
years  from  the  first  Census,  which  may  be  taken  under  a  new  Constitution. 

L  have  pointed  out  some  striking  defects,  in  the  table  returned,  upon  conjecture,  of 
the  present  white  population  of  the  various  counties  and  corporations  of  the  Common- 
wealth. It  is  safe  to  reason  from  our  past,  to  our  future  growth.  After  adopting  a 
course  sanctioned  by  experience,  and  deriving  its  facts  from  the  actual  enumerations 
of  the  population  of  the  Commonwealth— I  have  arrived  at  this  result ;  and  I  appeal 
to  the  gentlemen  who  have  expressed  so  much  alarm,  to  disprove  it  if  they  can. 

They  conjure  up  imaginary  dangers  and  reason  from  them,  as  if,  instead  of  being 
the  creatures  of  their  own  fancy,  they  were  solemn  realities. 

All  the  foundations  of  property  are  to  be  uprooted  !  By  whom  By  men  of  fru- 
gal habits ;  who  are  laboring  incessantly  for  its  acquisition.  Who  can  hope  to  acquire 
It,  only,  by  the  exertions  of  a  hardy  industry,  from  a  stubborn  soil,  upon  an  uneven 
country,  and  who  can  hold  and  enjoy  it,  when  acquired,  but  under  the  same  protect- 
inff  power  of  the  laws .?  The  tables  I  have  already  quoted,  show  that  property  is 
diffused  as  widely  to  the  West  as  to  the  East ;  and,  consequently,  the  interest  which 
guards  its  existence.  ,  .  ,    ,      j  j  •  * 

Do  not  our  opponents  perceive  that  the  argument  which  they  deduce  against  the 
augmentation  of  the  power  of  the  West,  that  it  will  be  exerted  to  the  prejudice  of 
th?  East,  may  be  retorted  upon  them,  and  with  the  greater  force  ;  since  they  desire 
to  keep  that,  to  which  they  have,  in  truth,  no  title  ;  and  which  must  consequently  be 
maintained  by  that  jealousy  which  ever  accompanies  injustice 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


201 


Wlaat,  our  opponents?  ask,  has  the  majority  to  apprehend  from  the  minority  ;  the 
West,  from  the  East  ?  For  if  the  proportions  of  the  people  be  not  thus,  truly  expressed, 
the  East,  has,  itself,  nothing  to  fear  from  the  proposed  apportionment  of  power. 
What,  then,  has  the  West  to  apprehend  ?  I  answer  every  thing,  from  the  very  alarm 
expressed  by  the  gentlemen,  who  make  the  enquiry,  in  dread  of  the  approaching  as- 
cendancy of  the  West?  Laws,  to  discourage  the  improvement  of  a  country,  whose 
inhabitants  are  daily  prompted  to  forsake  it,  by  the  temptations  offered  them,  in 
cheaper  lands  abroad",  and  more  liberal  institutions,  than  they  find  at  home. 

Do  you  inquire  what  shall  be  the  provisions  of  such  laws  ?  Some  of  them,  I  will 
borrow  from  our  past ;  others  from  our  existing  code  of  Legislation. 

I  will  not  speak  of  the  limitation  of  suffrage,  in  the  Constitution  itself,  which  de- 
grades the  non-freeholder  to  the  level  of  the  slave  :  but  I  will  refer  you  to  one  of  its 
consequences,  the  act  of  1754,  for  Colonial  defence.  When  threatened  with  a  French 
and  Indian  war,  the  draft  for  compulsory  enlistments,  for  military  service,  was  extended 
by  the  General  Assembly,  to  all  persons,  except  such  as  were  under  twenty-one  and 
above  fifty  years  of  age,  and  all  freeholders  or  voters,  and  all  indented  or  bought 
servants. 

Need  I  go  so  far  back  ?  What  is  our  present  body  of  road  laws,  but  one  system  of 
oppression  upon  the  laboring  poor,  who  are  taxed  in  personal  service  as  well  as  by  a 
levy  in  money,  equally  with  tlie  rich,  to  keep  that  highway  in  repair,  which  they  have 
not  the  power  to  injure,  unless  by  their  footsteps.  Nay.  to  work  on  the  roads  is  a 
duty  from  which  any  proprietor  of  tico  slaves  is  exempted,  notwithstanding  his  use  of 
the  road  is  nearly  in  the  direct  proportion  of  his  wealth  ? 

What  may  I  not  say,  of  that  system  of  poor  laws,  which  extorts  the  resources  of 
public  charity,  by  an  equal  tax,  from  all  men,  without  distinction  of  fortune,  except 
■what  may  arise  from  the  application  of  a  poll  tax,  to  a  country  having  slaves 

Such  are  some  of  the  features  of  the  old  code.  For  the  new,  let  us  suppose  every 
other  branch  of  revenue  lopped  off  from  our  present  sj^stem,  and  a  poll  tax  to  be 
levied  on  the  free  white  inhabitants  of  the  Commonwealth,  without  reference  to  the 
distinction  of  wealth 

If,  instead  of  cherishing,  it  be  desired  to  keep  down  the  West,  such  are  the  present 
facilities  for  descending  the  river  Ohio,  and  many  of  its  tributaries,  that,  but  a  little 
ingenuity  would  make  the  trans-Alleghany  country  a  wilderness  again,  fit  only  for 
the  habitation  of  beasts  of  prey. 

Gentlemen  reason,  as  if  the  only  power  in  Government  was  taxation  ;  as  they  have 
represented  the  protection  of  property  to  be  almost  the  sole  end  of  Legislation.  They 
forget  the  numerous  laws,  which  protect  the  rights  of  persons,  in  peace,  as  well  as  the 
more  important  shield,  which  they  cast  around  him  in  war. 

It  cannot  have  been  forgotten,  that  during  the  last  war,  it  was  proposed,  and  not 
without  apparent  reason,  to  exempt  a  part  of  the  militia  on  the  sea  board,  from  mili- 
tary service,  beyond  the  limits  of  their  respective  counties  ;  a  regulation  which  might 
have  been  extended,  so  far,  as  greatly  to  auofment  the  pressure  of  military  duty  on  the 
West. 

What  are  all  the  laws  which  limit,  or  extend  the  period  of  military  service  r  That 
exempt  apprentices  and  slaves  from  the  obligation  to  perform  it :  but  laws,  the  burthen 
of  which,  the  wealthy  can  escape,  by  hiring  substitutes ;  and,  to  which,  the  poor  man 
must  yield  obedience,  however  reluctantly" he  may  leeve  his  Jiome  without  a  master; 
his  wife,  without  a  husband;  or  his  children  without  a  parent  to  protect  them. 

How  many  laws  are  there,  witli  respect  even  to  property,  which  operate,  also,  upon 
the  very  body,  manners  and  character  of  society ;  disappointing  labour  of  its  fruits, 
and  brinofing  discredit  upon  the  country,  which  is  obliged  to  acknowledge  their  sway.? 
Such  are^those  laws  which  withhold  the  payment,  or  suspend  the  legal  remedies  for 
the  recovery  of  just  debts  :  which  in  fine,  drive  commerce  from  a  land,  designed  by 
nature  to  be  her  favoured  abode,  and  turn  her  choicest  blessings  into  absolute  curses. 

Society  owes  other  obligations,  to  itse'f,  or  to  its  members.  Protection  from  foreign 
violence  and  the  administration  of  justice,  are  of  indispensable  necessity.  But  the 
intercourse  and  education  of  its  citizens,  have,  also,  claims  upon  its  attention,  that  no 
wise  Government  has,  hitherto  disregarded. 

These  subjects  are  among  those,  however,  that  fill  our  opponents  with  the  greatest 
alarm.  They  have  denounced  all  attempts  to  improve  the  natural  advantages  of  the 
State,  at  public  cost,  whether  by  roads  or  canals ;  and  this,  because  of  a  single  experi- 
ment which  has,  it  seems,  been  badly  conducted. 

The  people  of  James  river,  have  been  disappointed  in  the  result  of  a  favorite  im- 
provement— As  the  member  from  Albemarle  demonstrated,  they  owe  that  disappoint- 
ment to  themselves  alone.  They  bought  a  whistle,  found  it  discoursed  not  such  music 
as  they  expected ;  and  like  a  spoilt  cliild,  they  have  broken  it  in  two,  and  thrown  it 
away.  .  If  I  may  presume  to  advise  them,  and  I  "am  at  least  sincere  in  what  I  say,  I 
will  tell  them  to  finish  tlieir  canal  to  Lynchburg  ;  then  quadruple,  as  they  well  may, 
the  load  of  their  boats  :  substitute  a  single  horse,  an  old  man,  and  a  boy,  for  their  im-^ 

26 


202 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


pellin^  power,  instead  of  a  half  a  dozen  able  bodied  hands,  and  they  will  no  longer, 
find  cause  to  complain  of  the  money  they  have  expended. 

But  what  has  this  failure  to  do  with  the  question  before  us  ?  Did  not  the  first  vote 
in  this  Hall,  in  favor  of  a  Convention,  precede  this  James  river  scheme  of  improve- 
ment, and  did  that  not  spring  up  in  this  city  ? 

As  for.jthe  late  Charlottesville  Convention,  it  had  any  other  than  a  western  origin. 

I  will  leave  its  vindication,  to  my  venerable,  learned  and  patriotic  friend,  (Chief 
Justice  Marshall,)  now  sitting  before  me,  who  I  fear,  will  not  give  his  support,  to  our 
basis  of  representation,  though  certainly,  from  no  prejudice  against  the  improvement 
of  the  roads  and  rivers  of  the  Commonwealth. 

The  education  of  the  people  is,  also,  an  object  of  dread;  and  the  bill  of  1817, 
which  passed  the  House  of  Delegates,  by  a  very  large  majority,  notwithstanding  its 
present  unequal  basis  of  representation,  has  been  the  topic  of  special  denunciation  and 
complaint. 

We  are  told  that  we  wish  to  acquire  the  power  of  educating  the  poor  man's  child, 
at  the  expense  of  the  rich.  1  confess,  I  am  ashamed  to  hear  such  suggestions,  at  this 
day,  and  in  the  Capitol  of  Virginia.  Although,  I  perceive  no  connexion  between 
them,  and  the  purpose  of  our  present  dehberations,  yet  they  spring  from  a  source  so 
respectable,  (Mr.  Green,)  that  I  must  believe,  being  worthy  of  the  gentleman  from 
Culpeper.  (Mr.  Green,)  they  merit  my  notice.  Such  a  cause  ought  not  to  suffer,  for 
want  of  an  advocate.  The  bill  referred  to,  with  all  its  imperfections,  I  am  willing  to 
let  rest  upon  my  head.    But  one  word  of  defence. 

Since  1819,  we  have  applied  $  45,000  a  year  to  the  education  of  our  poor,  and  10,000 
children  are  imperfectly  taught  for  about  six  months  in  the  year,  by  its  application. 

New  York  has,  at  present,  in  her  free  schools,  open  at  all  times,  equally  to  the  rich 
and  the  poor,  more  than  450,000  children ;  and  to  the  State  Treasury,  the  annual  cost 
of  their  instruction  is  $  100,000.  By  the  judicious  application  of  this  sum,  she  has 
elicited  individual  zeal  and  wealth  sufficient  to  do  the  rest  of  this  beneficent  labor. 

Connecticut,  whose  school  system  is  an  improvement  upon  that  of  Massachusetts, 
and  nearly  as  ancient,  as  its  importation  from  Scotland  in  1G47,  employs  in  its  support 
a  revenue  of  $  80,000.  She  finds  that  sum  sufficient  to  educate  all  her  children,  in 
number  more  than  as  many  thousand.  I  once  visited  a  gentleman  in  that  State,  the 
purest,  if  not  the  most  perfect  Commonwealth,  in  existence,  who  was  worth  several 
hundred  thousand  dollars,  though  with  but  four  and  twenty  acres  of  land  near  his 
dwelling.  He  kept  several  carriages — and  the  son  of  his  coachman  went  to  the  same 
school  with  his  own  grand-child.    Both  vv^ere  well  taught. 

Except  in  the  county  of  Brooke,  where  about  five  dollars  a  year  suffices  for  the 
education  of  her  poor  children,  the  annual  charge  upon  the  Literary  Fund,  for  every 
pupil  whom  it  instructs,  is  no  where  less  than  eight  dollars;  while  in  Connecticut, 
this  expense,  as  we  see,  is  very  little  more  than  a  fourth  of  that  amount,  corresponding,, 
as  it  does,  with  the  cost  of  instruction  in  the  parochial  schools  of  Scotland. 

Will  the  ricli  any  where  complain  of  a  system  which,  while  the  children  of  the 
poor  are  instructed  enables  them  to  educate  their  own,  at  a  cost  so  reduced.''  And  is 
the  education  of  the  people,  who  are  every  where  in  America,  the  acknowledged 
guardians  of  their  own  rights,  the  source  of  all  political  power,  a  subject  of  mere 
Eastern  or  Western  interest,  in  Virginia  ? 

Who  are  the  people  of  the  West  ?  Are  they  not  our  fellow-citizens,  our  friends  and 
brothers.''  Whence  did  they  spring?  From  the  East.?  Have  they  forgot  their  common 
origin  ?  It  was  with  extreme  concern,  that  I  heard  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  (Mr. 
J.  S.  Barbour,)  declare,  a  few  days  ago,  that  the  West  had  not  a  proper  sympathy 
with  the  East,  and  urge  in  proof  of  this  charge,  that  during  the  invasion  of  the  Com- 
monwealth, in  the  last  war,  their  representatives  on  this  floor,  voted  against  the  De- 
fence Bill  of  1815.  They  did  not  hear,  he  emphatically  said,  the  "  sound  of  the  can- 
non of  the  enemy,  nor  behold  the  distress  of  the  East:"  and,  therefore,  felt  it  not. 
He  would  not  trust  them  with  political  power.  Sir,  said  Mr.  M.  this  very  "  Defence 
Bill,"  was  the  offspring  of  the  joint  labour  of  a  delegate  from  Loudoun,  and  a  gen- 
tleman from  Augusta,  now  sitting  in  my  view.  I  call  upon  my  patriotic  and  liberal 
friend,  to  repel  a  charge,  for  which,  there  is  not,  in  truth,  the  slightest  foundation.  If 
many  Western  delegates  voted  against  this  bill,  so  did  many  East  of  the  mountains 
which  divide  us,  as  well  they  might.  It  became  a  law,  as  my  honorable  friend  (Mr. 
Johnson,)  can  testify,  who  must  well  remember  also  the  numerous  imperfections 
which  remained  in  it,  and  the  complicated  basis  of  taxation  and  enumeration,  on 
which  its  most  efficient  provisions  depended  for  their  execution. 

We  trusted,  in  truth,  to  the  moral  feeling  of  the  country,  to  supply  those  admitted 
defects.  Nor,  had  the  war  continued,  would  that  trust  have  been  in  vain — But  while 
the  war  lasted,  did  it  furnish  no  evidence  of  the  common  sympathy,  which  binds  the 
West  to  the  East.?  The  gentleman  flom  Chesterfield  (Mr.  Leigh,)  himself,  can  attest 
the  contrary.  He  had  an  official  station,  near  the  person  of  the  commander  of  the  army, 
which  asseml)led  for  the  defence  of  this  Capitol;  and  if  he  was,  as  I  then  understood,  the 


DEBATES    OF   THE  COXVENTION. 


203 


author  of  the  proclaaiation  which  brought  that  army  together,  he  must  remember  its  ef- 
fect. [Mr.  Leigh  shook  his  head.]  There  was  not  a  mountain,  a  river,  a  valley  of  the 
West,  that  did  not  respond  with  animation,  to  this  appeal  to  the  patriotism  of  Virginia. 
At  the  cry  of  invasion  and  danger  from  the  East,  every  man  of  the  West,  from  the 
summit  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  to  the  shores  of  the  Ohio,  capable  of  bearing  arms,  mount- 
ed his  knapsack,  and  turned  his  face  from  home — there  was  no  distinction  of  the  rich, 
from  the  poor.  Gentlemen  who  had  occupied  conspicuous  places  in  our  halls  of  le- 
gislation— the  ploughman  from  the  fresh  fallow  field — officers,  soldiers  and  citizens — 
all  moved  on  witli  one  accord.  In  a  fortnight,  15,000  men  were  mustered  in  sight  of 
the  Capitol ;  among  them  the  largest  body  of  cavalrj^  that  ever  was  reviewed  in  our 
portion  of  this  continent.  In  one  morning,  a  thousand  of  them  were  discharged  as 
supernumeraries.  On  their  return  home,  they  met  the  eagles  of  the  West,  still  sweep- 
ing their  flight  to  the  East.  Their  course  was  turned  to  their  mountains,  only  when 
danger  had  ceased. 

Nor  was  this,  the  only  proof,  during  that  war,  which  the  West  afforded,  of  devotion 
to  the  East. 

Shall  I  be  told,  by  the  gentlejnan  from  Chesterfield,  while  I  labor  to  bind  closer 
around  my  countrymen,  the  cords  of  union,  that  I  haunt  his  imagination  with  the 
spectres  of  the  men  who  died  at  Norfolk.'  I  purposely  omit  the  offensive  association 
which  accompanied  the  allusion.    I  will  bear  his  reproaches. 

It  is  full  well  known  that,  in  the  progress  of  that  war,  Virginia  was  thrown,  in  a 
great  degree,  upon  her  own  resources,  for  defence.  Her  noble  bay.  was  locked  up  by 
a  British  Admiral.  Her  State  taxes  doubled — Private  income  was  nearly  at  an  end. 
Her  Banks  had,  by  forced  loans,  been  compelled  to  suspend  the  issue  of  specie.  A 
currency  of  depreciated  paper  flooded  the  markets  of  the  country,  where  there  were- 
any.  The  system  of  common  defence  by  the  forces  of  the  Union,  had  so  far  failed, 
that  the  several  States  had  begun  to  raise  separate  armies  for  their  peculiar  safety.  It 
was  a  time  to  try  men's  hearts.  And  what  did  the  West JMarch,  without  a  murmur, 
from  their  health-inspiring  mountains,  to  the  marshes  of  Princess  Anne.  They  de- 
scended from  the  remotest  boundaries  of  the  Commonwealth,  traversing  it  for  four 
hundred  miles,  from  Washington  and  Brooke,  to  the  sea-board.  I  witiiessed  their 
conduct,  their  sufferings,  and  the  fortitude  with  which  they  bore  them.  No  man  of 
Princess  Anne  ever  complained  of  the  deportment  of  those  men  ;  that  any  soldier  ever 
molested  his  person,  disturbed  his  quiet,  or  wasted  his  property;  that  he  had  trodden 
down  the  grass  of  his  fields,  or  traversed  them,  but  by  the  paths,  which  he  himself 
had  made.  The  corn  ripened  around  the  tents  of  these  soldiers  untouched,  in  the 
midst  of  no  ordinary  privations,  and  a  life  of  suffering,  to  which  most  of  them  were 
unused. 

Disease  made  its  way  into  their  camps  in  various  forms,  and  thousands  ingloriously 
perished,  of  v/hose  names  no  vestiges  remain,  but  in  the  remembrance  of  their  chil- 
dren. I  have  searched  for  their  graves,  but  could  find  no  trace  of  them  except  a  few 
scattered  stones,  on  the  commons  of  Norfolk. 

In  the  month  of  November  next  preceding  the  peace,  which  terminated  this  war, 
one  hundred  and  sixty  were  buried,  eight  hundred  discharged,  because  incapable  of 
further  service,  and  .2,300  returned  on  the  sick  list.  These  facts,  Mr.  Chairman,  de- 
rived from  an  official  source,  were,  you  must  well  recollect,  handed  over  to  you,  to 
serve  as  the  basis  of  your  argument  in  support  of  that  very  Defence  Bill,  of  which, 
the  member  from  Culpeper  has  reminded  us.  It  was  not  till  the  close  of  this  perilous 
season,  or  immediately  before  the  return  of  peace,  that  any  aid  was  ordered  to  our  re- 
lief, from  North  Carolina,  though  Norfolk,  is  as  much  her  sea-port,  as  ours  :  and  her 
boundary  crosses  the  canal  in  its  vicinity. 

Sir,  the  part  which  my  friend  from  Norfolk  (Gen.  Taylor)  who  gave  discipline,  and 
character,  and  confidence  to  the  militia  army,  I  have  described,  has  taken  in  this  ques- 
tion, does  equal  credit  to  his  heart  and  his  head.  It  is  worthy  of  the  Baj'ard  of  Vir- 
ginia, a  man  sans  jyeur  et  sans  reproche.''  And  should  he  fall  a  martyr  in  the  cause 
he  has  thus  nobly  espoused,  I  shall  envy  him  liis  martyrdom.  It  will  be  the  only  un- 
kind feeling  I  ever  felt  towards  him. 

And  why.  Sir,  did  we  defend  Norfolk,  at  so  vast  a  sacrifice  of  life  and  money  ?  We 
could  have  twice  burnt  it  down  and  built  it  up  again,  with  the  sums  spent  in  its  de- 
fence ;  to  say  nothing  of  the  mere  labor  of  the  men  whose. lives  it  cost  us. 

Was  it  not  to  protect  the  sea-board.'  Those  very  proprietors,  who  now  deny  our 
equal  rights,  with  themselves,  to  political  power  in  this  Commonwealth,  and  that  too, 
on  the  very  ground,  which  then  constituted  their  own  insecurity  and  danger  ?  Was  it 
not,  that  the  lowland  gentleman  might  lie  down  in  safety,  or  leave  his  dwelling,  with- 
out fear,  that,  in  his  absence,  the  incendiary  torch  might  fire  it,  and  turn  his  wife  and 
children  out  upon  the  world,  if  the  mid-night  dagger  chanced  to  spare  their  lives.'  It 
was  not  the  value  of  Norfolk,  but  its  position,  that  we  maintained,  for  tlie  peace  of  the 
lowlands.^ 


204 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


If  the  present  were  a  mere  question  about  taxation  we  should  inquire  into  the 
ability  of  the  taxed,  to  pay.  As  it  is  a  question  of  representation,  we  inquire  into  the 
numbers  of  those,  who  are  to  be  represented. 

My  friend  from  Norfolk,  (Mr.  Taylor,)  had  properly  illustrated  the  difference  of 
these  two  principles  of  taxation  and  representation,  by  comparing  them  to  two  foun- 
tains which  rise  in  the  same  glen,  but  pursue  their  way  to  the  ocean,  by  different 
channels. 

The  member  from  Chesterfield  has  told  us,  that  the  figure  is  inaptly  applied,  since 
they  both  spring  from  the  same  source  :  and  with  an  infelicity,  which  rarely  occurs 
in  iris  figurative  language,  he  has  spoken  of  a  torrent  of  representation  rolling  from, 
and  another  stream  of  taxation,  ascending  to,  the  West.  If  in  the  operations  of  peace, 
the  balance  be  in  favor  of  the  West,  it  is  evidently  reversed,  in  war,  for  a  heavier 
charge  than  a  war  on  our  sea-boai'd,  must  ever  bring  upon  the  people  who  live  remote 
from  the  actual  theatre  of  its  dangers,  cannot  well  be  conceived. 

But  why  disfigure  a  Commonwealth  so  fitted  for  union  by  odious  lines  of  discrimi- 
nation founded  on  imaginary  diversities  of  interests  ?  If  the  "  Pyrennees"'  have 
disappeared,  at  one  end  of  their  chain,  why  may  they  not  do  so,  along  its  whole 
extent  ? 

Were  they,  however,  higher  than  tlie  Alps,  the  new  distribution  of  political  power 
would  not  transfer  the  majority  of  the  House  of  Delegates  to  the  West  of  this  natural 
division  of  the  territory  of  the  Commonwealth.  In  a  House  of  120  members,  70  would 
remain  below  the  Blue  Ridge  :  and,  as  I  have  said,  a  majority  must  continue  there  for 
years  to  come.  The  lenient  agency  of  that  very  time,  which  the  gentleman  from  Ches- 
terfield would  invoke,  to  mitigate  all  revolutions  of  power,  is  thus  assured  to  those 
feelings  which  neither  he  nor  I  would  revolt  by  sudden  change. 

If  mere  difference  of  local  interests  should  sever  States  and  people,  'tis  not  a  divi- 
sion of  Virginia  by  a  single  mountain  which  would  suffice. 

The  member  from  Albemarle  (Mr.  Gordon)  has  illustrated  this  truth,  in  one  of  the 
histories  which  he  gave  us  of  the  causes  of  discontent  on  James  River.  Even  the 
slave-holding  country  has  its  tobacco  and  its  cotton  staples,  below  the  line  which 
divides  us  on  the  present  questi-on. 

It  is  true  with  all  local  interests,  that  as  you  enlarge  their  sphere  of  action,  you 
Widuce  their  force.  By  circumscribing  their  limits,  you  only  increase  their  vigor. 
To  give  each  interest  within  this  Commonwealth,  power  to  regulate  itself,  not  four 
divisions — but  forty,  must  be  made.  Shall  we,  for  such  reasons,  sunder  the  land  of 
our  birtlr 

Mr.  Chairman,  said  Mr.  M.,  as  I  decended  the  Chesapeake  the  other  day,  on  my 
way  to  this  city,  impelled  by  a  favoring  west  wind,  which,  co-operating  with  the  new 
element  applied  by  the  genius  of  Fulton  to  navigation,  made  the  vessel  on  which  I  stood 
literally  fly  through  the  wave  before  me,  I  thought  of  tlie  early  descriptions  of  Virgi- 
nia, by  the  followers  of  Rawleigh,  and  the  companions  of  Smith.  I  endeavored  to 
scent  the  fragrance  of  the  gale  which  reached  me  from  the  shore  of  the  capacious  bay 
along  which  we  steered,  and  I  should  have  thought  the  pictures  of  Virginia,  which 
rose  in  my  fancy,  not  too  highly  coloured,  had  I  not  often  traversed  our  lowland 
country,  the  land  not  only  of  my  nativity,  but  of  my  fathers — and  I  said  to  myself, 
how  much  has  it  lost  of  its  primitive  loveliness.  Does  the  eye  dwell  with  most  plea- 
sure on  its  wasted  fields,  or  its  stunted  forests  of  secondary  growth  of  pine  and  cedar 
Can  we  dwell,  but  with  mournful  regret,  on  the  temples  of  religion,  sinking  in  ruin; 
and  those  spacious  dwellings,  whose  doors  once  opened  by  the  hand  of  liberal  hospi- 
tality, are  now  fallen  upon  their  portals  or  closed  in  tenantless  silence  ?  Except  on 
the  banks  of  its  rivers,  the  march  of  desolation  saddens  this  once  beautiful  country. 
The  cheerful  notes  of  population  have  ceased,  and  the  wolf  and  wild  deer,  no  longer 
scared  from  their  ancient  haunts,  have  decended  from  the  mountains  to  the  plains. 
They  look  on  the  graves  of  our  ancestors,  and  traverse  their  former  paths.  And  shall 
we  do  nothing  to  restore  this  once  lovely  land  ?  There  was  a  time  when  the  sun  in 
his  course  shone  on  none  so  fair. 

Let  us  elevate  the  condition  of  that  population  in  Virginia,  which  constitutes  the 
bone  and  sinew  and  strength  of  every  nation.  Let  us  lift  it  up  to  a  condition  above 
our  slaves,  diffuse  throughout  it,  knowledge,  which  is  power  ;  and,  instead  of  driving 
it,  by  political  proscription,  from  our  bosom,  invite  it  from  abroad. 

The  gentleman  fi-om  Chesterfield,  bound  by  ties  that  do  not  connect  me  with  the 
world,  tells  us  that  the  integrity  of  the  Commonwealth  is  but  the  second  wish  of  his 
heart — Sir,  unlike  him,  the  aflections  of  mine  centre  on  my  country.  My  last  wish 
will  be  like  my  first,  for  her  liberty,  her  peace,  her  happiness,  and  as  the  firmest  bund 
of  all  these  blessings,  her  Union.  In  life,  and  in  death  as  in  life,  such  will  be  my 
prayer.    Oh  America  !  patria  op  ima ;  Virginia,  mater  amatissima,  esto  perpetua  ! 

Mr.  J.  S.  Barbour  here  rose  to  explain  : 

The  gentleman  from  Loudoun  has  referred,  I  presume,  to  myself,  in  some  of  the 
remarks  which  had  fallen  from  hLm,  in  relation  to  the  people  of  the  West.    His  fervid 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


205 


defence  of  their  conduct  during  the  last  Trar,  was  wholly  unnecessary.  Believe  me, 
Sir,  I  know  too  well  what  is  due  to  their  patriotism  and  bravery,  ever  to  have  enter- 
tained or  expressed  tlie  sUghtest  distrust  of  either.  All  I  was  endeavomring  to  shew, 
was.  that  there  exists  a  diversity  of  interests  between  different  parts  of  the  State, 
which  could  not  but  exert  its  influence  on  their  views  and  course  of  action.  The 
West  had  one  set  of  interests,  the  East  another.  The  gentleman  from  Loudoun  knows 
that  I  went  with  him  in  support  of  the  Defence  Bill.  I  never  felt  or  thought  that 
there  was  any  deficiency  manifested  by  the  people  of  the  West,  in  tliis  season  of  pub- 
lic danger. 

Mr.  fiercer  said  he  was  happy  to  hear  the  gentleman  express  the  opinion  he  had 
jvst  uttered:  but  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper  must  forget  the  tenor  of  his  own  re- 
marks, which  certainly" went  to  convey  the  idea,  that  the  people  beyond  the  mountain 
not  havino-  heard  the  sound  of  hostile  cannon,  nor  witnessed  the  scenes  of  distress 
occasioned  by  the  presence  of  an  invading  enemy,  did  Bot  sympathize  with  their 
brethren  in  the  lower  part  of  the  State.  He  was  very  happy  to  find  that  the  gentle- 
man now  harboured  no  suspicion  in  his  breast  toward  his  brethren  in  the  "S'S  estern 
part  of  the  State. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said  he  had  been  repeatedly  alluded  to  in  the  course  of  this  debate, 
as  if  he  had  contended  that  the  Constitution  was  not  legal  and  obhgatory.  He  had 
made  no  argument  nor  expressed  any  opinion  to  that  effect.  When  alluding  to  the 
circumstances  under  which  the  Constitution  had  been  formed,  he  was  replying  to  the 
argument  of  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  who  had  contended  that  the  existing 
Constitution,  had  been  made  by  all  and  for  the  benefit  of  all :"  and  his  object  was 
to  shew,  that  so  far  firom  having  been  made  by  all.  for  the  benefit  of  all.  it  had  been 
made  by  a  particular  description  of  freeholders  only,  and  for  the  benefit  of  freeholders 
of  the  same  description  with  themselves,  perpetuating  the  power  which  they  them- 
selves possessed.  Mr.  D.  had  made  the  statement  more  particularly  with  reference  to 
the  right  of  suffrage,  (should  the  Convention  ever  reach  that  subject,  of  which  he 
began  to  entertain  some  fear  :)  he  had  done  it  to  shew  that  there  was  a  numerous 
clcLSs  of  citizens  who  had  never  been  consulted  at  all  in  the  formation  of  the  Con- 
stitution, and  Ms  inference  from  that  fact  was.  that  they  had  a  right  to  be  consulted 
now. 

Mr.  JovvES  next  addressed  the  Committee. 

Mr.  Chairman:  The  subject  now  under  the  consideration  of  the  Committee,  is  one 
of  great  importance  to  the  future  happiness  and  prosperity  of  Virginia;  and  I  have 
to  ask  the  attention  of  the  Committee,  for  a  short  time,  while  1  present  to  the  Com- 
mittee the  views  I  have  taken  of  this  subject.  In  doing  this,  I  shall  not  indulge  the  ex- 
pectation that  any  thing  that  I  can  say  will  change  the  vote  of  any  member  of  this  Com- 
mittee. Every  gentleman  in  this  Convention  has.  no  doubt,  maturely  considered  the 
subject,  and  honestly  made  up  his  opinion  ; — and.  if  the  able  and  eloquent  arguments 
which  have  already  been  addressed  to  the  Committee,  have  been  insufficient  to  change 
the  opinions  of  gentlemen.  I  have  not  the  vanity  to  suppose  that  any  thing  which  I 
may  say,  would  have  that  effect.  This  subject  is  interesting  to  the  whole  State,  and 
particularly  to  tliat  portion  of  it  in  wliich  I  live  ;  and  if  I  were  to  permit  tiiis  question 
to  be  decided  without  expressing  tJie  opinions  I  entertain,  and  the  reasons  on  which 
these  opinions  are  founded,  I  should  be  wanting  in  duty  to  myself  and  to  those  who 
sent  me  here. 

When  1  was  elected  a  member  of  this  Convention,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  endeavoured 
to  persuade  myself,  that  while  it  was  my  duty,  in  concert  with  my  colleagues  to  watch 
over  and  protect,  so  far  as  I  could,  the  particular  interests  of  my  constituents,  yet  that 
I  was  a  representative,  in  some  degree,  of  the  whole  people  of  Virginia,  and  bound 
to  consult  the  interests  of  the  whole  comnmnity.  I  came  here.  Sir.  actuated  by  a  spi- 
rit of  compromise  toward  other  members  of  this  Convention.  I  came  here,  prepared 
to  reconcile,  as  far  as  was  practicable,  by  mutual  concessions,  all  sectional  and  conflict- 
ing interests,  and  to  agree  in  the  adoption  of  such  a  Constitution  as  we  might  reason- 
ably hope  woiild  permanently  promote  the  interest  and  happiness  of  Virginia.  It 
was  idle  for  any  man  to  calculate  that  every  measure  was  to  be  adopted  precisely  ac- 
cording to  his  wishes.  It  is  by  mutual  concessions  alone,  that  any  beneficial  results 
can  be  expected  to  arise  from  our  labours.  There  was  no  subject  which  it  was  pro- 
bable Cvould  come  before  the  Convention,  on  which  I  felt  more  strongly  actuated  bv  a 
wish  for  mutual  concession  tiian  on  that  now  \mder  the  consideration  of  the  Commit- 
tee;.— and  I  was  gratified  the  other  day,  when  my  friend  from  Fauquier  (Mr.  Scott), 
proposed  an  amendment  to  the  amendment  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper 
(Mr.  Green),  which  would  afford  me  an  opportunity  of  manifesting,  by  my  vote,  that 
I  was  really  disposed  to  compromise  this  interesting  subject ;  and  I  regret  that  a  ma- 
jority of  the  Committee  entertained  different  views  from  me  relative  fo  that  amend- 
ment. 

We  have  been  told  in  the  course  of  this  debate  by  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle 
(Mr,  Gordon),  that  the  amendment  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper  (Mr. 


206 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Green),  was  incompatible  with  the  extension  of  the  right  of  suffrage.  The  right  of 
suffrage,  Mr.  Chairman,  is  not  by  any  means  involved  in  this  question,  nor  have  they 
any  necessary  connexion.  The  question  here  is  not,  to  whom  the  right  of  suffrage 
shall  be  granted,  but  in  what  proportions  shall  the  political  power  of  the  Common- 
wealth be  distributed  amongst  the  different  sections  of  the  State  :  whether  it  shall  be 
distributed,  having  reference  to  white  population  alone,  by  which  those  portions  of  the 
State  which  pay  less  than  one-fourth  of  the  whole  revenue  of  the  Commonwealth, 
shall  have  the  entire  control  of  the  legislative  power ;  or  shall  it  be  so  distributed,  that 
those  who  are  compelled  to  pay  more  than  three-fourths  of  the  revenue,  shall  have  it 
in  their  power  to  protect  themselves  from  improper  taxation.  I  am  in  favour  of  the 
extension  of  the  right  of  suffrage  as  far,  perhaps,  as  any  man  in  this  Convention;  and 
much  farther,  I  dare  say,  than  I  shall  be  sustained  by  the  votes  of  a  majority  of  the 
Convention.  I  am  willing  to  extend  it  to  all  free  white  male  citizens  of  this  State  up- 
wards of  twenty-one  years  of  age  who  have  committed  no  crimes  against  the  State, 
and  who  actually  j^ay  taxes  to  the  State  or  county — whether  they  be  freeholders  or 
not.  And,  I  would  allow  to  the  poorest  man  who  went  to  the  polls,  precisely  the 
same  vote,  that  I  would  allow  to  his  wealthy  neighbour  who  might  be  the  master  of 
five  hundred  slaves. 

I  shall  not  pretend  to  question  the  correctness  of  the  general  rule,  that  the  majori- 
ty should  govern ;  and  a  majority  of  persons  in  general  furnishes  the  best  evidence  of 
a  majority  of  interests.  Since  the  eloquent  argument  of  my  colleague  from  North- 
ampton (Judge  Upshur),  most  of  the  gentlemen  who  have  engaged  in  this  debate  on 
the  other  side,  have  placed  this  question  on  the  ground  of  expediency  alone.  One  of 
the  greatest  errors  which  can  be  committed  in  tlie  science  of  Government,  it  appears 
to  me  is,  to  lay  down  certain  general  fundamental  principles,  and,  like  the  bed  of  Pro- 
crustes, compel  every  community  to  conform  to  them,  without  regard  to  circumstances. 
A  Constitution,  to  be  of  any  value,  must  be  adapted  to  the  particular  circumstances 
and  situation  of  the  country  for  which  it  is  intended.  That  Government  which  would 
be  best  for  one  country  might  be  worst  for  another.  Every  man  in  this  Convention ; 
nay,  every  man,  I  am  sure,  in  America,  would  unite  in  saying,  that  a  Republican  form 
of  Government  was  best  adapted  to  the  situation  of  the  people  of  the  United  States 
and  to  the  individual  States  :  but  lie  would  be  an  unwise  politician  indeed,  who  would 
attempt  at  this  day  to  establish  a  Republic  in  Russia  or  Turkey ;  and  humanity  has 
had  to  mourn  over  the  unsuccessful  efforts  to  establish  a  Republic  in  France ;  and,  from 
recent  indications,  we  have  too  nmch  reason  to  apprehend  that  Republican  Govern- 
ment is  not  suited  to  the  late  Spanish  possessions  on  this  Continent.  The  only  ques- 
tion that  a  wise  Statesman  should  ask  is,  whether  the  measure  proposed,  is  best  calcu- 
lated to  promote  the  liberty,  interests  and  happiness  of  the  people  on  whom  it  is  in- 
tended to  operate  as  they  really  are  ;  and  not,  whether  the  measure  conforms  to  cer- 
tain rules  of  theoretical  perfection,  and  would  be  best  adapted  to  a  people  such  as  he 
would  have  them  to  he.  If  this  were  a  question  between  the  protection  of  personal 
rights  on  the  one  hand,  and  property  on  the  other,  and  it  was  impossible  to  reconcile 
the  two,  I  should  not  hesitate  in  giving  the  preference  to  the  protection  of  personal 
rights ;  but  I  humbly  conceive,  that  there  is  no  incompatibility  in  the  protection  of 
the  two.  Property  asks  not  for  a  sword  to  enable  it  to  do  injury  to  others :  it  only  asks 
for  a  shield  to  protect  it  from  injury. 

This  question  has  been  discussed,  Mr  Chairman,  by  most  of  the  gentlemen  on  one 
side,  and  by  all  on  the  other,  as  if  the  only  object  was  the  protection  of  the  slave  pro- 
perty of  Eastern  Virginia  from  oppressive  taxation.  And  the  gentleman  from  Albe- 
marle (Mr.  Gordon),  has  said,  that  no  gentleman  on  the  other  side  has  advocated  the 
amendment  to  the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee  on  any  other  ground.  For 
myself,  Sir,  I  have  no  hesitation  in  srying,  that  if  there  were  not  a  slave  in  Virginia," 
or  if,  by  the  unanimous  consent  of  the  Convention,  a  clause  were  inserted  in  the  Con- 
stitution exempting  them  forever  from  taxation,  1  should  still  think  the  amendment 
ought  to  prevail.  The  power  of  imposing  taxes  upon  a  community,  whereby  the  Gov- 
ernment can  at  pleasure  withdraw  from  every  individual  any  portion  of  his  hard  earn- 
ed property,  is  one  of  the  most  important  powers  which  can  be  conferred  by  the  peo- 
ple, in  their  sovereign  character,  upon  their  Government.  And,  it  is  of  the  utmost 
importance,  that  that  responsibility  of  public  functionaries  to  the  people  for  the  faith- 
ful discharge  of  their  duties,  which  is  the  life  and  security  of  representative  Govern- 
ment, should  be  preserved  in  the  fullest  and  most  perfect  degree,  with  respect  to  the 
power  of  laying  taxes, — and  tliis  responsibility  never  can  exist  in  a  proper  degree, 
unless  those  who  have  the  power  of  laying  the  taxes  are  directly  responsible  to  those 
who  are  compelled  to  pay  them.  If  the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee  be  adopt- 
ed by  the  Convention,  then  those  who  pay  less  than  one-fourth  of  the  taxes  of  the 
State  would  have  the  power  of  imposing  taxes  on  the  residue  of  the  State ;  and  the 
majority,  who  imposed  the  taxes,  would  be  subject  to  no  kind  of  responsibility  to 
those  who  were  compelled  to  pay  the  greater  part  of  the  taxes. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


207 


The  wealth  of  a  country,  Mr.  Chairman,  depends  upon  the  productive  industry  of 
that  country;  and  whether  these  productions  arise  from  the  labour  of  freemen,  or  of 
slaves,  they  add  equally  to  the  wealth  of  the  community  at  large.  The  tobacco  of 
Virginia,  the  cotton  and  rice  of  the  Carolinas  and  Georgia,  and  the  sugar  of  Louisi- 
ana, add  as  much  to  the  wealth  of  the  nation  as  if  they  v/ere  the  produce  of  the  labour 
of  free  wliite  men.  Yet,  I  am  still  unwilling  to  place  the  slave  labourer,  on  an  equali- 
ty with  the  white  man:  There  are  prejudices  on  this  subject,  arising  from  a  difference 
in  colour,  and  various  other  considerations,  which  are  insuperable:  These  prejudices 
I  feel  as  strongly  as  any  man  in  the  West ;.  and,  if  the  question  now  under  considera- 
tion was,  whether,  in  an  apportionment  of  representation  having  reference  to  num- 
bers, and  to  no  other  consideration,  slaves  should  be  included,  I  should  feel  no  hesita- 
tion'in  saying;  that  I  would  not  include  slaves  in  the  enumeration. 

Althouo-h  the  protection  of  slave  property  from  the  danger  of  unjust  and  oppres- 
sive taxation,  be  not  the  only  object  of  the  proposed  amendment  to  the  report  of  the 
Leo-islative  Committee,  yet  the  large  portion  of  slaves  held  in  Eastern  Virginia,  and 
the°comparatively  small  number  held  in  the  Western  part  of  the  State,  deserves  se- 
rious consideration  in  deciding  upon  the  subject.  The  slave  tax  is  about  30  per  cent, 
of  the  whole  revenue  of  the  State  :  they  constitute  one-third  8f  the  whole  property 
of  the  State,  and  more  than  one-half  of  the  property  of  that  part  of  Virginia  lying  to 
the  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge  of  mountains.  We  have  been  told  by  the  two  gentle- 
men from  Frederick  (Mr.  Cooke  and  Mr.  Powell) ;  by  the  gentleman  from  Brooke 
(Mr.  Campbell) ;  by  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  (Mr.  Gordon) ;  and  by  the  gen- 
tleman from  Loudoun  (Mr.  Mercer),  that  if  the  white  basis  of  representation  be  adopt- 
ed, still  the  slave-holding  interest  would  be  protected — because,  they  say,  there  are  a 
great  many  slaves  in  the  Valley,  where  they  are  generally  distributed  amongst  the 
people :  and  several  of  these  gentlemen  referred  particularly  to  four  counties  in  the 
Valley,  which  they  say  contain  great  numbers  of  slaves,  and  that  the  white  popula- 
tion of  these  four  counties  added  to  the  white  population  of  the  country  East  of  the 
Blue  Ridge,  would  make  a  white  population  of  400,000,  who  have  peculiarly  a  slave 
interest;  and  the  balance  of  the  white  population  being  only  280,000,  the  slave-hold- 
ino-  interest  would  have  a  large  majority,  and  would  always  have  a  majority.  The 
respectability  of  these  gentlemen  repudiates  the  idea  that  the}^  intended  to  deceive 
the  Convention  ;  and  their  splendid  talefits  added  to  their  weight  of  character,  gives 
an  imposing  authority  to  every  statement  they  make ;  but  I  think,  Sir,  it  can  be  very 
easily  shown,  that  these  gentlemen  are  intirely  mistaken  in  their  calculations. 
The  slaves  constitute  38  per  cent,  of  the  whole  population  of  the  State  ; — and  no 
county  having  less  than  38  per  cent,  of  slave  population,  can  have  such  a  controlling 
slave  interest,  as  would  induce  it  to  unite  with  the  slave-holding  interest  in  other 
parts  of  the  State,  in  resisting  attempts  to  burthen  that  species  of  property  with  ex- 
cessive taxes,  for  the  rehef  of  other  property  from  taxation.  To  illustrate  my  idea, 
I  will  suppose  that  the  taxes  of  the  State  are  so  arranged  that,  one  half  arises  from 
land,  and  the  other  half  from  slaves  :  If  these  slaves  be  distributed  in  equal  propor- 
tions, according  to  wliite  population,  amongst  the  several  counties  of  the  State,  and 
it  should  become  necessary  to  increase  the  taxes  of  the  State,  it  would  be  immaterial, 
so  far  as  intire  counties  were  concerned,  whether  tlie  increased  taxation  be  imposed 
on  land  or  slaves :  But  if  the  slaves,  instead  of  being  distributed  equally  amongst  all 
the  counties,  should  be  so  distributed,  that  one  half  of  the  counties  contained  three 
fourths  of  the  slaves,  and  the  remaining  h  ill"  contained  only  one  fourth  ;  and  it  should 
become  necessary  to  increase  the  taxes,  is  it  not  perfectly  manifest,  that  those  coun- 
ties containing  only  one  fourth  of  the  slaves  would  be  interested  to  impose  all  the 
taxes  on  slaves,  to  the  exclusion  of  land?  There  cannot  be  a  doubt  on  the  subject. 
The  slaves  West  of  the  Alleghany  are  8  2-3  per  cent,  of  the  whole  population  West 
of  those  mountains ;  in  the  Valley  the  slaves  are  17  per  cent,  of  the  whole  popula- 
tion;  and  in  the  country  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  the  slaves  exceed  the  whites. 

But,  Mr.  Chairman,  we  have  been  told  that  four  counties  of  the  Valley,  particu- 
larly, have  a  slave  interest,  which  will  induce  them  to  unite  with  the  slave-holders  of 
the  East  in  the  protection  of  that  kind  of  property.  Let  us  examine  whether  these 
four  Valley  counties  to  which  the  people  of  the  East  have  been  asked  to  commit  the 
guardianship  of  their  slave  property,  have  such  a  common  interest  in  the  subject  as 
will  render  it  prudent  for  the  slave-holders  of  the  East  to  choose  them  as  guardians  of 
that  kind  of  property.  If  they  have  not  such  interest.  INIr.  Speaker,  prudence  would 
forbid  their  being  selected  as  guardians.  Let  us  say  what  we  will  of  the  virtue  and 
integrity  of  man,  the  best  security  that  can  be  had  for  another  man's  honesty  is,  to 
place  him  in  a  situation  where  it  is  his  own  interest  to  be  honest.  Lead  us  not  into 
temptation,"  are  the  words  of  the  Saviour  himself. 

The  four  Valley  counties  to  which  gentlemen  allude,  are,  no  doubt,  Frederick,  Au- 
gusta. Botetourt  and  Jefferson.  These  counties  contain  together  20,534  slaves,  and 
50,241  free  whites  ;  the  slaves  being  27  per  cent,  of  the  whole  population.  These 
counties  pay  $  16,630  55  cts.  of  the  land  tax,  which  is  equal  to  9  47-100  X  per  cent. 


208 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


of  the  whole  land  tax,  and  they  pay  $4,935  of  the  slave  tax,  which  is  equal  to 
4  3-10  X  per  cent,  of  the  whole  slave  tax.  Suppose  there  was  a  proposition  before 
the  Legislature,  to  raise  for  the  exigencies  of  the  State,  an  additional  sum  of  $  100,000 
by  taxation,  and  a  member  from  the  West  should  propose  to  raise  this  additional  sum 
by  a  tax  exclusively  upon  slaves  :  and  a  member  from  the  East  proposed  to  raise  it 
intirely  by  a  tax  on  land,  how  would  these  four  guardian  counties  vote.?  If  the  ad- 
ditional tax  be  raised  on  land,  these  four  counties  would  pay  $  9,474  :  and  if  it  be 
raised  on  slaves,  they  would  pay  only  $4,305.  If  they  were  actuated  by  that  great 
spring  of  human  action — self-interest,  they  are  interested  more  than  two  to  one,  to 
impose  the  additional  tax  intirely  upon  slaves.  If  they  were  governed  by  interest 
alone,  they  would  make  bad  guardians,  and  I  fear  the  East  would  share  the  fate  of 
too  many  wards. 

The  gentleman  from  Brooke  (Mr.  Campbell),  and  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle 
(Mr.  Gordon),  have  told  us,  no  doubt  to  allay  the  apprehensions  of  the  East,  that  if 
representation  be  apportioned  according  to  white  population  alone,  the  West  would 
lose  representation  in  comparison  with  the  present  apportionment,  and  the  gain  would 
be  in  the  slave  districts.  In  order  to  prove  this,  they  disregard  the  calculations  of 
the  Auditor  as  to  the  supposed  population  of  1829,  and  rely  upon  the  Census  of  1820. 
And  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  (Mr.  Mercer),  has  also  told  us,  that  the  Auditor 
has  committed  a  great  mistake  in  the  supposed  population  of  1829,  as  to  that  county ; 
and  he,  therefore,  has  no  confidence  in  the  Auditor's  calculations,  but  prefers  to  rely 
on  the  Census  of  1820.  The  gentlemen  who  advocate  the  white  basis,  do  not  agree 
in  the  value  they  are  disposed  to  place  upon  the  Auditor's  estimate  of  the  population 
of  1829.  A  gentleman  from  beyond  the  Alleghany,  whose  opinions  are  intitled  to 
great  weight  upon  this  and  all  other  subjects,  (Mr.  Doddridge)  told  us,  that  the  Au- 
ditor's calculations  did  not  give  to  the  country  beyond  the  Alleghany,  a  greater  in- 
crease of  white  population  than  it  was  really  intitled  to  ;  and  I  know  that  other  gen- 
tlemen entertained  the  same  opinion.  In  fact,  the  gentleman  from  Brooke  (Mr.  Dod- 
dridge), in  his  speech  the  other  day,  rather  vauntingly,  said,  that  in  thirty  years  the 
majority  of  the  white  population  of  the  whole  State  would  be  West  of  the  Alleghany 
Mountains:  And  he  referred  to  the  Auditor's  estimate  of  the  population  of  1829,  in 
support  of  that  assertion.  And  he  told  us,  too,  that  the  white  population  beyond  the 
Blue  Ridge,  would  continue  to  increase  until  (to  use  his  own  language)  "  the  white 
population  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge  would  be  but  a  drop  in  the  bucket^  to  that  of  the 
West."  The  Auditor's  estimate  of  the  population  of  1829,  although  called  for  on  my 
motion,  was  called  for  on  the  suggestion  of  another  gentleman  from  the  West  of  the 
Alleghany,  who  was  a  good  Judge  of  the  subject,  and  after  the  Auditor  had  satisfied 
that  gentleman  and  myself  that,  from  the  documents  in  his  office,  he  could  be  enabled 
with  tolerable  accuracy,  to  estimate  the  population  of  1829.  I  cannot  consent  to  al- 
low gentlemen  the  advantage  in  argument  of  relying  on  the  correctness  of  the  Audi- 
tor's statement  one  day,  and  then,  when  it  suits  their  argument  on  another  day,  to 
tell  us  that  no  confidence  should  be  placed  in  that  estimate,  and  that  the  Census  of 
1820  should  alone  be  relied  on.  If  we  were  now  about  fixing  the  representation  ac- 
cording to  the  white  population,  and  which  was  to  remain  unchanged  for  ten  years  to 
come,  would  gentlemen  then  be  content  to  rely  on  the  Census  of  1820.?  I  presume 
we  should  then  be  told  again  that  the  Auditor's  estimate  was  correct  and  ought  to  be 
relied  on.  I  have  but  little  doubt  that  the  Auditor's  estimate  of  the  population  of 
1829,  is  very  nearly  correct,  and  I  shall  not  hesitate  to  assume  it  as  the  basis  of  my 
calculations, — and  let  us  see  upon  that  estimate  how  the  representation  would  stand 
in  comparison  with  the  present  apportionment  of  representation.  According  to  the 
Auditor's  estimate,  the  whole  white  population  of  the  State  in  1829,  is  682,261.  If 
this  number  be  divided  by  120  (which  is  the  number  of  delegates  recommended  by 
the  Legislative  Committee),  we  shall  find  that  5,685  are  the  number  of  free  whites 
necessary  to  furnish  one  delegate.  On  this  estimate,  the  country  West  of  the  Alle- 
ghany (containing  twenty-six  counties)  would  be  entitled  to  thirty-two  delegates, — 
the  Valley  (containing  fourteen  counties)  to  24  1-3, — the  country  from  the  Blue  Ridge 
to  the  head  of  Tide  (containing  twenty-nine  counties)  to  34  2-3:  and  from  the  head 
of  Tide  to  the  Sea  Coast  (containing  thirty-six  counties  and  four  towns  intitled  to 
representation)  to  29  delegates.  If  the  number  of  delegates  were  reduced  to  120,  and 
distributed  in  proportion  to  the  present  distribution,  the  result  would  be  that  the  first 
District  would  be  intitled  to  29  delegates,— the  second  District  to  16,— the  third  Dis- 
trict to  32  1-2,— and  the  fourth  to  42  1-2  delegates.  So  that,  on  the  basis  of  white 
population,  in  comparison  with  the  present  apportionment,  the  different  Districts  would 
stand  thus : 

The  1st  District  would  gain  3  members. 

The  2d  District  would  gain  8  1-3  members. 

The  3d  District  would  gain  .       ,  2  members. 

The  4th  District  would  lose  13  1-3  members. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONTENTION. 


209 


So  that  the  3d  and  4th  Districts,  which  are  slave-holding  Districts,  -would  lose  11 
1-3  members ;  and  the  two  Western  Districts  would  gain  11  1-3  members. 

The  o-entleman  from  Albemarle  (jNIr.  Gordon)  has  told  us,  that  the  Valley  and  the 
middle "countr}',  which  he  calls  the  "'heart  of  the  State,"  have  a  majority  of  white 
population  and  pay  a  majorit}-  of  taxes,  and  ought  to  have  a  majorit}-  of- Delegates  ; 
whereas,  at  present  they  have  only  86  Delegates  out  of  214.  I  agree  that  these  two 
Districts  ouorht  to  have  a  majority:  and  let  us  see  how  they  will  stand  on  the  white 
basis  and  on  the  compound  basis  of  representation.  That  gentleman',  to  insure  the 
majority  of  Delegates  to  the  ••'  heart  of  the  State,"  again  refers  to  the  Census  of  lc20 ; 
whereas,  by  the  Census  of  1829,  which  I  have  endeavoured  to  show  ought  to  be  re- 
lied upon,  on  the  basis  of  white  population,  they  would  have  only  59,  out  of  120  Dele- 
gates; and  these  two  Districts,  on  the  white  basis,  never  can  have  a  majority,  be- 
cause the  white  population  \Vest  of  the  Alleghany,  increases  much  faster  than  in  the 
Valley  ;  and  in  the  other  two  Districts  there  is  verf  little  increase.  The  present 
white  population  of  the  second  and  third  Districts  together  is  335,354,  and  the  first 
and  fourth  Districts  together  have  a  white  population  of  346,107.  It  is  only  on  tiie 
combined  basis  of  population  and  taxation,  that  the  second  aijd  third  Districts  can 
have  that  majority  which  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  so  ardently  desires  they 
should  have.  On  the  combined  basis,  the  first  District  would  have  21  Delegates  :  the 
second  District  21  :  the  third  District  41  :  and  the  fourth  District  37 ;  and  the  second 
and  third  Districts,  the  heart  of  the  State,"  would  have,  together,  G2  Delegates  5 
instead  of  59  on  the  white  basis. 

The  gentleman  fi-om  Albemarle  (INIr.  Gordon),  and  tlie  gentleman  from  Loudoun 
(Mr.  Mercer)  have  also  told  the  Committee,  that  if  representation  be  apportioned  ac- 
cording to  white  population  alone,  there  would  still  be  a  considerable  majority  of 
Delegates  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge.  The  first  gentleman  says  the  majority  would  be 
19,  and  the  other  says  it  would  be  20.  Here  again  the  gentlemen  are  compelled  to 
resort  to  the  Census  of  1820,  to  sustain  their  positions.  If,  in  argument,  you  will 
grant  gentlemen  their  premises,  it  is  very  easy  to  prove  any  thing  they  wish  :  but  I 
must  acrain  insist  on  holding  gentlemen  to  the  Auditor's  estimate  of  the  population  of 
1829.  I  cannot  consent  that  they  should  adopt  it  when  it  suits  them,  and  abandon  it 
when  it  makes  against  them.  Why,  Mr.  Chairman,  should  we  talk  about  the  Census 
of  1820,  when  it  is  manifest  that  no  apportionment  of  representation  under  the  new 
Constitution  which  may  be  recoimnended  by  this  Convention  to  the  people,  ever  can 
be  made  under  that  Census  :  The  Delegates  in  1830  are  to  be  elected  under  the  old 
Constitution,  and  in  1830  a  new  Census  will  be  taken  under  the  authority  of  the  Gene- 
ral Government,  and  the  first  apportionment  of  Delegates  that  can  ever  take  place 
under  the  new  Constitution,  will  be  conformable  to  the  Census  of  1830. 

The  gentleman  from  Loudoun  (Mr.  Mercer)  has  told  the  Committee,  that  there 
would  not  be  a  majority  of  white  population  West  of  the  Blue  Rido-e  before  1850  ; 
and  that  the  transfer  of  political  power  to  the  West  would  be  gradual.  This  infor- 
mation is  no  doubt  kindly  intended  by  that  gentleman,  to  allay  the  apprehensions  of 
the  Ecist.  While  I  may  be  disposed  to  admire  the  philanthropy  which  prompts  the 
information,  I  cannot  admit  the  premises  necessary  to  enable  the  gentleman  to  prove 
his  position.  Here  again,  he  refers  to  the  Census  of  1820.  According  to  the  Audi- 
tor's Census^'  the  white  population  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  is  now  319,516  ;  and 
on  the  East  of  the  R,idge  362.7-45.  If  the  wliite  population  continue  to  increase  in  the 
same  ratio  as  it  has  increased  since  1820.  then  in  18:35,  the  white  population  West  of 
the  Blue  Rid^e  will  be  375,310  ;  and  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge  372,293,  being  a  majority 
of  3,017  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge.  I  acknowledge,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  on  this  sub- 
ject I  have  heretofore  been  mistaken,  and,  possibly,  I  may  have  induced  some  others 
to  adopt  my  errors.  I  did  not  suppose,  until  I  saw  the  Auditor's  estimate,  that  the 
majority  oJf  white  population  would  be  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge  so  early  as  1S35. 

1  have  said.  Mr.  Ciiairman,  that  if  there  were  no  slaves  in  the  State,  or  if  by  unani- 
mous consent  they  were  to  be  forever  exempted  from  taxation.  I  should  still  vote  for 
the  amendment  under  consideration.  Those  who  have  the  power  of  laying  the  taxes, 
ought  to  be  directly  responsible  to  those  who  are  compelled  to  pa}-  them — not  merely 
•  in  name,  but  in  fact.  If  the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee  be  adopted,  then 
taxes  to  any  amount  may  be  imposed,  contrary  to  the  unanimous  wishes  of  those 
who  pay  three-fourths  of  the  taxes,  and  imposed  by  agents  who  owe  no  responsibili- 
ty, express  or  implied,  to  those  who  are  compelled  to  pay  the  greater  portion  of  these 
taxes.  Like  the  gentleman  from  Hanover  (Mr.  Morris),  I  can  imagine  no  despotism 
more  oppressive  than  that  which  gives  to  one  man  the  power  of  laying  taxes,  and  im- 
poses the  duty  of  paying  the  taxes  on  those  who  have  no  control  over  laving  them. 
Why  is  it,  Sir,  that  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  and  of  all  the  several 
States,  give  the  power  of  originatintj  laws  imposing  taxes,  to  the  most  numerous 
branch  of  the  respective  Legislatures  ?  It  is  because  the  most  numerous  branches  of 
the  Legislature  are  more  innnediately  the  representatives  of  the  people ;  they  are 
elected  for  shorter  periods,  and  are  compelled  more  speedily  to  return  to  the  people 

21 


2i0 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


and  give  an  account  of  their  stewardship.  Those  who  pay  the  taxes  ought  to  have 
complete  control  over  those  who  have  the  power  of  laying  the  taxes ;  otherwise  the 
taxes,  which  in  a  free  Government  should  be  considered  as  the  voluntary  contribu- 
tions of  the  citizen  for  the  sei'vices  of  the  State,  would  be,  in  fact,  arbitrary  exactions 
made  by  irresponsible  agents.  If  the  amendment  to  the  report  of  the  Legislative 
Committee  be  adopted,  this  salutary  and  necessary  control  will  be  preserved;  but  if 
the  amendment  be  rejected,  then  taxes  may  be  laid  by  those  who  are  not  responsible 
to  those  who  are  compelled  to  pay  them. 

Let  us  see,  Mr.  Chairman,  what  has  been  done  by  other  States  in  this  Union,  in 
fixing  the  basis  of  representation  in  their  respective  Legislatures.  We  have  been 
told  in  the  progress  of  this  debate,  that  fifteen  States  of  this  Union  have  adopted  the 
white  basis,  without  regard  to  any  other  consideration ;  and  we  have  been  urged  to 
follow  their  example.  Here  again,  I  am  sure  that  the  honourable  gentlemen  who 
have  made  this  assertion  had  no  intention  to  deceive  the  Committee  ;  but  I  am  equal- 
ly certain  that  they  have  reckoned  without  their  hosts.  Instead  of  fifteen  States  hav- 
ing adopted  the  white  basis,  unqualified,  there  ;ire  but  six  who  have  adopted  that  basis 
without  modification.  And  of  these  six,  neither  of  them  are  of  the  Old  Thirteen 
States  of  this  Union — and  four  of  them  are  States  created  within  the  last  few  years. 
The  only  States  which  have  adopted  this  basis,  itnqua'ijicd,  are  Kentucky,  Ohio,  In- 
diana, Illinois,  Mississippi  and  Alabama.  I  must  beg  the  indulgence  of  the  Commit- 
tee while  I  refer  to  the  Constitutions  of  the  other  States,  particularly  on  this  subject. 

In  Massachusetts,  where  they  have  no  slaves,  the  representation  in  the  Senate  is 
based  intirely  on  taxation  ;  and  in  the  House  of  Representatives  every  town  having 
150  rateable  polls  is  intltled  to  one  representative  ;  and  every  town  having  375.  is  in- 
titled  to  two  representatives. 

In  Maine,  every  town  containing  1,500  inhabitants,  is  intitled  to  one  representative  ; 
and  so  on,  increasing  until  a  town  has  2G,250  inhabitants,  when  it  shall  be  intitled  to 
seven  representatives  ;  and  no  toicn  slialL  ever  have  more  than  seven  representatives. 

In  New-Hampshire,  the  representation  in  the  Senate  is  based  on  taxation  alone. 
In  the  House  of  Representatives,  a  town  having  150  rateable  polls  is  intitled  to  one 
representative,  and  a  town  having  450  is  intitled  to  two. 

In  Vermont,  towns  containing  80  taxable  inhabitants  are  intitled  to  two  representa- 
tives ;  and  ail  others,  without  regard  to  population,  are  intitled  to  one. 

In  Connecticut,  (that  land  of  steady  habits,  to  which  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun 
wished  he  could  transport  all  the  members  of  this  Convention,  to  witness  the  bene- 
ficial results  of  her  v^^ise  institutions)  each  new  town,  zvithout  regard  to  pojmlation,  is 
intitled  to  one  representative. 

In  New  York  and  Pennsylvania  (so  often  referred  to  in  a  commendatory  manner  in 
this  debate,)  each  county,  however  small  the  population,  is  intitled  to  one  representa- 
tive, and  the  larger  counties  to  more  than  one — according  to  population  in  the  one 
and  taxable  inhabitants  in  the  other  State.  When  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun  to- 
day was  reading  parts  of  the  Constitutions  of  ditferent  States,  he  read  that  part  of 
the  Constitution  of  Pennsylvania  which  directed  that  representaticm  she uld  be  ap- 
portioned according  to  taxable  inhabitants ;  and  the  very  next  sentence  after  that 
read  by  the  gentleman,  commenced  with  these  words.  "  Every  county  shall  have  at 
least  one  representative,"  &c.  I  am  sure  the  omission  of  the  gentleman  to  read  that 
clause  was  intirely  accidental  :  I  know  him  to  be  too  honcrable  to  w  iirh  to  impose 
upon  the  Committee.  In  New  Jersey,  Delaware,  Maryland,  and  North  Carolina,  the 
representation  in  both  Houses  is  apportioned  by  counties,  without  regard  to  numbers; 
and  in  Virginia,  the  House  of  Delegates  is  apportioned  by  counties,  and  the  Senate 
according  to  white  population.  In  South  Carolina,  the  re})rest  ntation  in  both  Houses 
is  apportioned  according  to  population  and  taxation  combined  ;  but  every  district  shall 
have  one,  whatever  may  be  tlie  population  and  taxatifsn.  In  Georgia,  the  Senate  is 
equally  apportioned  amongst  the  counties,  without  regard  to  population  ;  and  the 
House  of  Representatives  is  apportioned  according  to  lederal  rium.bers,  but  subject  to 
this  modification,  that  each  county  shall  have  at  lenst  one  and  not  more  than  four 
members  ;  and  counties  having  3,000.  to  have  two  delegates  ;  7,000  three;  and  12,000 
and  upwards,  four  delegates.  In  Tennessee,  both  H luses  are  apportioned  according  • 
to  taxable  inhabitants,  including  slaves.  In  Louisiau'i.  the  Senatorial  districts  are  to 
remain  forever  unchanged,  without  regard  to  the  increase  of  population.  And  in 
Missouri,  each  county  is  to  have  one  representative  at  least,  and  the  larger  counties 
more  than  one,  according  to  population.  If,  Sir,  we  are  to  be  influenced  by  the  ex-  , 
ample  of  other  States,  by  which  ought  we  to  be  influenced  ;  by  the  example  of 
seventeen  States,  twelve  of  which  are  old  States,  some  of  whose  Constitutions  have 
have  been  tested  by  the  experience  of  near  half  a  century  ?  Or,  shall  we  follow  the 
example  of  our  younger  sisters,  some  of  whom  are  so  young  that  they  have  not  yet 
had  a  sufficient  opportunity  of  testing  the  wisdom  of  their  measures  ?  The  gentleman 
from  Loudoun  (Mr.  Mercer)  read  to  the  Committee  extracts  from  the  Bills  of  Rights, 
prefixed  to  the  Constitutions  of  a  number  of  the  States,  to  prove  the  equality  of  all 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVE^'TIO^^. 


211 


men,  and  to  convince  the  House  that  the  white  basis,  without  regard  to  any  other 
consideration,  ought  to  be  adopted.  It  is  true,  that  seven  of  the  States  have  Bills  of 
Rights  declarinor°the  equality  of  all  men  ;  and  that  the  majority  have  a  right  to  alter 
and  modify  the  Government  as  they  please.  Notwithstanding  all  these  Bills  of  Pvights 
we  find  the  wise  men  who  made  these  Constitutions,  like  George  Mason  and  his 
compatriots  of  1776  who  made  the  Constitution  of  Virginia,  wisely  modifying  general 
principles,  so  as  to  adapt  them  to  the  particular  situation  and  circumstances  of  their 
several  States  ;  thev  made  the  coat  to  fit  the  man  who  was  to  wear  it,  rather  than  to 
make  the  coat  without  regard  to  the  dimensions  of  the  man,  and  compel  him  to  wear 
it  whether  it  fits  him  or  not.  Thus,  Mr.  Chairman,  will  all  wise  lawgivers  act.  A 
Constitution,  although  it  may  be  made  according  to  the  most  approved  ideas  of  theo- 
retical perfection,  is  of  but  little  value,  unless  it  be  adapted  to  the  circumstances  of 
the  country  for  which  it  is  intended.  And,  cotemprrary  expositions  of  the  meaning 
of  an  instrument  made  by  the  authors  of  the  instrument  themselves,  are  intitled  to 
more  respect  thin  the  most  elaborate  and  ingenious  essays  of  subsequent  commen- 
tators. 

We  were  told  j^esterday  by  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  that  for  the  last  seven 
years,  there  had  been  no  State  tax  in  jNlassachusetts  and  2ie\Y  Hampshire ;  and  there- 
fore, although  the}'  had  a  provision  in  their  Constitutions  for  basing  representation  in 
the  Senate  according  to  taxation,  it  had  ceased  to  operate  in  practice,  and  white  popu- 
lation was  n-nv  aJune  regarded.  I  am  willing  to  follow  precisely  in  the  footsteps  of 
New  Hampshire  and  Massachusetts  on  this  subject.  Let  us  have  the  power  of  protect- 
ing ourselves  from  unjust  taxes  as  long  as  it  is  necessarj^  and  the  moment  those,  into 
whose  hands  the  political  power  of  V  irginia  seems  destined  shortly  to  pass,  can  so 
wisely  manage  our  concerns  as  to  exempt  us  from  taxation,  1  for  one,  am  ready  to 
adopt  the  basis  of  white  population  alone.  Yes,  Sir,  1  am  prepared  this  day  to  agree 
to  it  on  these  conditions  ;  and  on  our  own  principles,  if  the  amendment  prevails,  as 
soon  as  we  have  no  taxes  to  pay,  white  population  alone  will  be  regarded. 

In  order  to  show  the  inequality  of  taxation,  and  the  necessity  that  should  induce 
those  sections  of  the.  State  pay  uig  the  greater  part  of  the  taxes,  to  adopt  the  proposed 
amendment,  I  beg  leave  to  refer  to  some  statements  and  calculations  I  have  made  on 
this  subject,  founded  f)n  the  Auditor's  report.  The  whole  revenue  of  the  Sidle  paid 
into  the  public  treasury  in  the  year  1;S2S,  and  arising  from  taxes  on  land,  slaves,  horses, 
carriages  and  licenses,  amounted  to  ^335,4"29  50.  If  this  sum  be  divided  by  082,261, 
wh'ch  is  the  wh')le  number  of  white  inhabit mts,  according  to  the  Auditor's  calcula- 
tion, it  will  give  58  cents  5  mills  as  the  average  taxes  paid  by  each  white  person  in  the 
State.  In  making  this  calculation,  I  have  excluded  tree  negroes  from  the  estimate  of 
persons  paying  taxes  to  the  State,  because  I  have  no  doubt  of  the  fact,  that  through- 
out the  State,  free  negro-^s  contribute  very  little  indeed  to  the  public  revenue  ;  so  little 
as  not  to  affect  the  accuracy  of  my  calculations.  The  county  in  vv^iich  I  reside,  con- 
tains, unfortunately  for  us,  the  one-twentieth  part  of  the  whole  free  negroes  of  the 
State,  and  the  free  negroes  of  that  count}'  do  not  pay  ^30  of  revenue  to  the  Com- 
monwealth ;  and,  from  the  information  of  other  gentlemen,  I  believe  it  will  be  found 
that  free  negroes  are  equally  worthless  throughout  the  State.  If  any  portions  of  the 
State  have  a  more  respectable  class  of  free  negroes  than  we  have,  I  congratulate  them. 
With  us,  instead  of  contributing  to  the  wealth  or  revenue  of  the  State,  they  are  per- 
fect nuisances. 

While  the  average  taxation  for  each  white  person  iia  the  State  is  56  cents  5  mills, 
the  average  paid  in  the  different  districts  is  as  follows  : 

In  the^first  district,  (West  of  the  Alleghany)  IS  cents  6  mills;  in  the  second  dis- 
trict, (the  Valley)  41  cents  2  mills.  The  whole  country  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge, 
averages  28  cents  4  mills. 

In  \h.e  third  district,  (from  the  Blue  K-idge  to  tide)  76  cents  2  mills  ;  in  the  fourth 
district,  (from  the  head  of  tide  to  the  sea)  87  cents  2  mills.  The  average  of  the  whole 
country  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge  is  81  cents  2  mills. 

There  is  no  subject  of  taxation  on  which  the  West  pays  as  much  tax  per  head,  ac- 
cording to  white  population  as  the  East.  To  show  this,  I  must  beg  the  indulgence 
of  tlie  Committee,  while  I  refer  to  another  calculation  I  have  made  : 

The  wh  ile  land  tax  assessed  in  the  State  (but  not  at  paid  n )  amounts,  for  each  white 
person,  to  25  cents  7  mills. 

In  the  first  district,  for  each  white  person,  it  amounts  to  9  cents  2  mills  ;  in  the 
second  district,  for  each  white  person,  it  amounts  to  24  cents  6  mills.  West  of  the 
Blue  Ridge,  the  average  is  15  cents  8  mills. 

In  the  third  district,  for  each  white  person,  it  amounts  to  33  cents  8  mills;  in  the 
fourth  district,  for  each  white  person,  it  amounts  to  34  cents  7  mills.  East  of  the 
Blue  Ridge,  the  average  is  34  cents  4  mills. 

So  that  for  every  dollar  of  the  land  tax  for  each  white  person  paid  by  tl)e  people 
West  of  the  Blue  Ridge^.  those  on  the  East  side  pay  $  2  13  cents  for  each  wiiite 
person. 


212 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


The  slave  tax  assessed  amounts,  for  each  white  person  in  the  State,  to  16  cents 
8  mills. 

In  the  first  district,  it  amounts  to  2  cents  3  mills ;  in  the  second  district,  it  amounts 
to  6  cents  2  mills.    West  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  it  averages  4  cents. 

In  the  third  district,  it  amounts  to  28  cents  5  mills  ;  in  the  fourth  district  it  amounts 
to  27  cents  6  mills.    East  of  the  Ridge,  it  averages  28  cents  1  mill. 

So  that  the  whole  country  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge  pays,  on  an  average,  for  each 
white  person,  a  slave  tax  amounting  to  more  than  seven  times  as  much  as  is  paid  by 
the  whole  country  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge — and  more  than  twelve  times  as  much  as 
the  country  West  of  the  Alleghany. 

The  taxes  assessed  on  horses  and  carriages  amount,  for  each  white  person  in  the 
State,  to  7  cents  7  mills. 

In  the  first  district,  it  amounts  to  5  cents  1  mill ;  in  the  second  district^  it  amounts 
to  7  cents  4  mills.    West  of  the  Ridge  it  averages  G  cents  2  mills. 

In  the  third  district,  it  amounts  to  9  cents  2  mills  ;  in  the  fourth  district,  it  amounts 
to  y  cents.  East  of  the  Ridge,  it  averages  9  cents  1  mill.  Which  is  fifty  per  cent, 
more  than  the  average  to  the  West  of  the  R.idge. 

Taxes  on  licenses  average  throughout  the  State,  for  each  white  person  11  cents  8 
mills. 

In  the  first  district,  the  average  is  4  cents  7  mills  ;  in  the  second  district,  tlie  ave- 
rage is  7  cents.    West  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  the  average  is  5  cents  7  mills. 

In  the  third  district,  the  average  is  11  cents  2  mills  ;  in  the  fourth  district,  the  ave- 
rage is  24  cents.  East  of  the  Ridge,  the  average  is  17  cents.  Which  is  more  than 
three  times  as  much  as  the  average  to  the  West. 

It  thus  appears,  that  on  every  subject  of  taxation,  the  country  East  of  the  Ridge 
pays  a  great  deal  more  for  each  white  person,  than  is  paid  to  the  West.  Even  of  the 
land  tax,  the  poor  and  worn  out  country  from  the  head  of  tide  to  the  sea  coast — a  coun- 
try which  has  been  settled  for  two  hundred  years,  and  has  been  suffering  under  a 
most  injudicious  and  ruinous  system  of  agriculture,  for  each  white  man,  the  land  pays 
near  fifty  per  cent,  more  than  is  paid  in  that  Valley,  which  Ave  have  been  told,  and  no 
doubt  correctl3^  is  the  finest  Valley  on  the  face  of  the  globe. 

But  if  the  slave  tax  be  rejected  intirely  from  the  estimate,  it  will  be  found  that  of 
the  other  taxes  assessed,  the  different  districts  will  stand  for  each  white  person  thus : 
The  first  district,  19  ceats  ;  the  second  district,  39  cents  ;  the  tliird  district,  54  cents  2 
mills  ;  the  fourth  district,  G7  cents  7  mills.  The  average  West  of  the  Ridge,  27  cents 
7  mills  ;  and  the  average  East  of  the  Ridge,  60  cents  5  mills.  It  thus  appears,  that 
for  every  dollar  of  taxes  (exclusive  of  slave  tax)  assessed  for  each  white  person  West  of 
the  Alleghany,  there  are  about  $  3  50  cents  assessed  on  each  white  person  in  the  tide 
water  district — and  for  every  dollar  for  each  white  person  (exclusive  of  slave  tax) 
assessed  on  the  whole  country  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  there  are  $  2  18  cents  assessed 
on  each  white  person  East  of  the  Ridge.  And  if  the  slave  tax  be  included,  it  will  be 
found  that  the  disparity  is  much  greliter.  If  we  examine  the  amount  of  taxes  paid 
into  the  Treasury,  from  some  separate  counties,  we  shall  find  the  inequality  to  be  still 
more  glaring.  In  the  large  counties  of  Monongalia  and  Harrison,  lying  to  the  West 
of  the  Alleghany  Mountains,  the  average  taxation  for  each  white  person  is  13  cents  5 
mills.  In  Powhatan  and  Nottoway,  lymg  East  of  the  Ridge,  the  average  of  the  coun- 
ties is  $  1  33  cents  2  mills.* 

I  will  now  proceed  to  examine,  Mr.  Chairman,  how  the  representation  on  the  white 
basis  will  stand  in  comparison  with  the  taxes  paid  in  different  Districts  of  countrj''. 
The  whole  amount  of  ta.xes  paid  into  the  Public  Treasury,  per  Auditor's  statement, 
amounts  to  $385,429  50  cents.  If  this  sum  be  divided  by  120  (the  number  of 
Delegates  recommended  by  the  Legislative  Committee)  it  will  give  ^  3,211  91  cents 
as  the  average  taxation  paid  by  the  constituents  of  each  Delegate  in  the  State.  In- 
stead of  the  constituents  of  each  Delegate  paying  this  sum,  they  will  pay  as  follows, 
viz : 

In  the  first  District,  for  each  Delegate  will  be  paid  $  1,055  32 

In  the  second  District,  for  each  Delegate  will  be  paid  2,340  90 

In  the  third  District,  for  each  Delegate  will  be  paid  3,954  34 

In  the  fourth  District,  for  each  Delegate  will  be  paid  4,980  06 

From  this  statement  it  will  appear  that  the  constituents  of  each  Delegate  in  the 
Tide  Water  District,  pay  nearly  five  times  as  much  taxes,  as  will  be  paid  by  the  con- 
stituents of  each  Delegate  West  of  the  Alleghany  mountains.  I  will  now  show  how 
it  will  stand  in  regard  to  some  individual  counties.  In  Monongalia  and  Harrison  to- 
gether, the  white  "population  amounts  to  26,243,  and  they  together  pay  taxes  to  the 
amount  of  $  3,553  02.    For  a  Delegate  from  these  counties,  therefore,  their  constitu- 

*  In  Grajson  county,  the  average  taxes  paid  for  each  white  person,  is  10  cents.  In  Giles,  13  cents  ; 
in  Lewis,  12|  cents  ;  in  Preston,  12  cents  j  in  Logan,  9^  cents  ;  and  in  Nicholas,  6^  cents. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  COXrEXTION. 


213 


ents  would  pay  a  tax  of  only  S  "68  71.*  In  Powhatan  and  Nottoway  together,  the 
white  population  is  5.4:34,  and  the  taxes  amount  to  S  T,-236  51.  For  a  Delegate  from 
these  counties,  the  constituents  would  pay  a  tax  at  the  rate  of  S  7.572  85.  The  con- 
stituents of  a  Delegate  from  Powhatan  and  Nottoway,  would  tlierefore  be  compelled 
to  pay  nearly  ten  tunes  as  much  as  the  constituents  of  each  Delegate  from  Monon- 
gaha"^and  Harrison  :  and  the  average  paid  by  the  constituents  of  each  Delegate  in  the 
Tide  Water  District,  would  be  near  seven  times  as  much  as  would  be  paid  by  the 
constituents  of  each  Delegate  from  Monongalia  and  Harrison. 

In  order  to  render  the  representative  really  and  effectually  responsible  to  the  con- 
stituents, in  the  exercise  of  the  important  power  of  taxation,  there  should  not  be  a 
great  disparity  in  the  burthens  imposed  by  any  proposed  system  of  taxation  on  the 
aggregate  constituents  of  each  delegate  :  the  disparity  shoiild  never  be  greater  than 
is  produced  by  a  combination  of  persons  and  taxation.  But  on  the  white  basis,  as  ap- 
plied to  the  situation  of  Virginia.  v.-hile  a  member  West  of  the  Alleghany  on  the  prin- 
ciples of  taxation  heretofore  adopted  (and  the  East  cannot  have  any  reason  to  calcu- 
late on  any  change  of  that  system  being  made  beneficial  to  them)  votes  to  impose  a 
tax  of  one  dollar  on  his  own'^constituents,  he  at  the  same  time  votes  to  impose  a  tax 
of  near  five  dollars  on  each  of  the  constituents  of  every  delegate  from  the  tide 
water  country ;  and  when  a  delegate  from  ^Monongalia  or  Harrison  votes  to  impose  a 
tax  of  one  dollar  on  his  own  constituents,  he  at  the  same  time  votes  to  impose  a  tax 
of  near  seven  dollars  on  the  people  of  the  tide  water  countr}',  and  near  ten  dollars  on 
the  people  of  Powhatan  and  Nottoway.  Under  such  an  inequality  of  taxation  and 
representation,  the  responsibihty  of  the  representative  to  his  constituents,  is  merely 
nominal.  The  gentleman  from  Albemarle  (Mr.  Gordon,)  told  us  the  other  day.  Mr. 
Chairman,  that  there  was  a  district  of  country  in  the  neighborhood  of  Richmond, 
having  twenty-nine  delegates,  which  did  not  pay  as  much  taxes,  and  had  not  as  many 
inhabitants  as  another  district  of  country  at  the  foot  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  having  only 
ten  deleo-ates.  This,  I  admit,  as  the  gentleman  tells  us,  is  a  disease  of  the  body  pohtic, 
and  this  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  proposes  to  cure  by  the  application  of  the 
white  basis,  as  a  panacea.  But.  I  think,  from  the  anah'sis  which  I  have  given  of  the 
remedy,  it  will  be  found  that,  like  many  quack  medicines  applied  to  the  human  body, 
it  only  serves  to  make  the  patient  worse. 

Mr.  Chairman,  although  we  may  talk  a  great  deal  about  our  disinterestedness,  yet 
if  we  will  examine  ourselves,  and  the  suggestions  of  our  own  hearts,  we  shall  be  very 
apt  to  find,  that  self-interest  in  some  degree  actuates  us  even  when  we  appear  to  be 
the  most  disinterested  and  patriotic — and  we  are  very  apt  to  calculate  how  particular 
measures  would  operate  at  home.  I  confess,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  examined, 
what  would  be  the  effect  of  the  white  basis  upon  the  district  in  which  I  live  :  and 
I  dare  say,  other  gentlemen  have  made  similar  calculations  as  to  their  respective 
districts.  I  think  it  not  improbable  that  my  friends  from  the  West,  who  I  have  no 
doubt  are  as  honest  and  disinterested  as  any  men  upon  earth,  have  calculated  the  re- 
lative operation  of  the  white  basis  and  compound  basis  in  their  section  of  country — 
and  if  they  have  not.  there  is  a  marvellous  coincidence  of  opinion  amongst  them  and 
acting  intuitively  in  the  direction  their  own  interests  would  point  out. 

If  the  white  basis  be  adopted,  as  gentlemen  contend  it  should  be,  in  both  branches 
of  the  State  Legislature,  and  the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  recommend- 
ing that  the  number  of  Senators  should  remain  at  twenty-four,  be  adopted,  then  ac- 
cording to  the  supposed  population  of  1829,  28,425  white  inhabitants  will  be  necessary 
to  intitle  a  district  to  a  Senator.  The  Accomack  Senatorial  district  would  require  a 
considerable  addition  to  give  it  a  sufficiency  of  white  population  to  intitle  it  to  a  Sena- 
tor. Having  regard  to  contiguous  territory,  I  propose  to  add  the  counties  of  York, 
Elizabeth  City,  War\^'ick  and  Essex,  and  the  whole  district  would  then  contain  only 
247  white  inhabitants  more  than  the  number  required.  This  district,  thus  enlaro-ed, 
pays  a  revenue  of  S  19.491  08,  while  the  average  which  would  be  paid  in  each  Sena- 
torial district  West  of  the  Alleghany,  would  be  only  ^  5,276  60,  and  in  the  district  of 
Harrison  and  Monongalia  only  §  3,843  55. 

Although  the  Accomack  district  shows  a  striking  inequahty  in  taxation  and  repre- 
sentation compared  with  some  other  districts,  yet  there  is  another  district  in  which  the 
inequality  is  much  greater.  There  is  a  district  of  country,  Sir,  not  fifty  miles  from 
Richmond,  in  which  a  Senatorial  district  composed  of  contiguous  counties  (on  the 
basis  of  white  population,  and  the  number  of  Senators  beino-  retained  at  24.)  vrould 
pay  at  the  same  rate  of  taxation  paid  in  1828,  within  lesslhan  ,S  600  of  as  much 
revenue  on  lands,  slaves,  horses,  carriages  and  licenses,  as  the  whole  country  W'est 
of  the  Alleghany  mountains,  paid  in  1828,  on  the  same  articles  ;  tliat  is  the  Chester- 
field district.  This  district  is  now  composed  of  the  counties  of  Chesterfield,  Amelia, 
Powhatan,  Nottoway,  Cumberland  and  the  town  of  Petersburg.    This  district  now 

*  In  Xicholas  county,  the  taxes  are  at  the  rate  of  §  466  for  a  delegate  :  in  Loran,  $  540  ;  and  in  Gray- 
son $  568  50.  -       3  =     J  V        >  J 


214 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


contains  24,572  white  inhabitants ;  and  in  order  to  bring  it  up  to  the  number,  which 
will  be  required  on  the  white  basis,  I  propose  to  add  the  adjoining  county  of  Lunen- 
burg. The  district  would  then  have  within  nine  of  the  number  of  white  inhabitants 
required  for  a  Senator  ;  and  the  revenue  paid  from  that  district  in  1828,  amounted  to 
$  33,194  80,  on  the  articles  enumerated  above,  while  the  whole  country  West  of  the 
Alleghany  only  paid  f  3  5,770  14  on  the  same  articles,  being  an  exces  of  only  $575  34. 

By  an  examination,  I  have  made  in  the  Auditor's  office,  I  have  ascertained  some 
facts  at  the  result  of  which  I  confess  I  was  myself  astonished.  From  the  examina- 
tion and  calculations  1  have  made  in  the  Auditor's  office,  I  think  I  can  make  it  satis- 
factorily appear  to  the  Convention  that  the  whole  country  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge, 
from  the  Auditor's  report  of  the  taxes  on  lands,  slaves,  horses,  carriages,  and  licenses, 
does  not  contribute  one  cent  to  the  general  revenue  of  the  State  for  general  purposes, 
but  on  the  contrary  is  largely  in  arrear ;  that  is  to  say,  they  do  not  pay  as  much  reve- 
nue as  their  own  citizens  receive  back  as  members  of  the  Assembly  and  for  claims 
and  services  which  may  be  considered  of  a  local  character.  The  Valley,  taken  by 
itself,  I  admit,  pays  a  large  surplus  ;  but  the  country  beyond  the  Alleghany  does  not 
pay  much  more  than  half  enough  for  its  own  purposes ;  and  by  adding  the  two  dis- 
tricts together,  there  appears  to  be  a  considerable  deficiency. 

The  expenses  of  the  General  Assembly — Commissioners  of  the  Revenue  and 
Cleks  for  examining  Commissioners'  books — Criminal  charges  and  Guards — Contin- 
gent expenses  of  Courts — Militia,  f  )r  Adjutants,  Brigade  Inspectors,  &c. — Compar- 
ing Polls — Salaries  of  General  Court  Judges  and  Chancellors,  amount,  rejecting 
cents  to  about  $  259,573.  If  this  sum  be  divided  amongst  the  diffiirent  sections  of 
the  State,  according  to  counties  equally,  it  will  be  found  that  the  country  West  of  the 
Blue  Ridge  receives  $  97,035,  and  the  revenue  paid  West  of  the  Ridge,  (according  to 
the  Auditor's  report  to  the  Convention,  above  referred  to,)  amounts  to  $90,732 — being 
$  6,303  less  than  it  receives.  In  making  the  calculation  of  the  sum  received  by  each 
section  of  the  State  by  counties,  the  result  is  favorable  to  the  West ;  because  their 
members  of  the  Assembly,  Judges,  and  Guards  attending  convicts,  receive  a  great 
deal  more  mileage  than  is  received  by  the  Eastern  half  of  the  State.  In  making  tliis 
calculation,  1  have  omitted  the  salaries  of  the  Governor  and  Council — Judges  of  the 
Court  of  Appeals — Attorney  General — Auditor  and  Treasurer,  and  their  Clerks — 
Public  Guard  at  Richmond  and  Lexington  too — Contingent  fund — and  in  fact  all  ex- 
penses which  can  be  regarded  of  a  general  character.  To  this  deficiency  of  $  6,303, 
add  for  Lunatic  Hospital  at  Staunton  $  7,500,  and  also  add  $  8,374  for  the  Literary 
Fund,  (being  the  difi:erence  between  $  18,968  of  the  annual  appropriation  of  $45,000 
for  Primary  Schools  received  by  the  West,  according  to  the  ratio  of  white  population 
by  which  it  is  distributed,  and  $10,594  for  the  amount  paid  by  the  West,  on 
the  supposition  that  that  fimd  was  raised  from  the  diffijrent  parts  of  the  State  in  the 
same  proportion  that  the  revenue  is  now  paid)  and  we  have  the  sum  of  $22,177,  re- 
ceived every  year  by  the  country  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge  from  the  Treasurj'  more 
than  they  contribute,  according  to  the  Auditor's  report,  without  charging  them  with 
any  part  of  the  expenses  of  a  general  character.* 

If  the  basis  of  white  population  be  adopted,  the  country  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge, 
which  is  now  a  charge  of  $  22,000  annually,  for  their  individual  purposes  on  the  rest 
of  the  State,  will  have  immediately  nearly  one  half  of  the  delegates  in  the  State  Le- 
gislature ;  and,  after  1835,  will  have  a  majority  of  delegates  ;  and  will  have  the  pow- 
er of  imposing  taxes  at  pleasure  on  the  rest  of  the  State.  With  these  facts  before  us, 
can  it  be  expected  that  Eastern  Virginia,  if  there  was  not  a  slave  in  the  State,  could 
consent  to  give  to  their  fellov*/^  citizens  of  the  West  the  absolute  and  irresponsible  con- 
trol of  their  property.  I  think  not.  For  myself,  I  confess  that  I  am  not  willing  to 
do  it. 

We  are  told,  Mr.  Chairman,  by  our  Western  friends,  that  the  people  of  the  East 
N^hould  rely  on  the  integrity  and  honesty  of  their  brethren  of  the  West,  and  that  the 
Restraints  of  conscience  will  be  sufficient  to  prevent  any  oppression  of  their  Eastern 
Drethren.  1  have  no  doubt  the  people  of  the  West  are  as  honest  as  any  people  on 
earth,  and  a  gentleman  from  that  country  told  us  a  few^  days  ago  that  they  were  pecu- 
liarly honest.  I  know  them  them  to  be  honest,  brave  and  patriotic ;  but  I  know  they 
are  also  inen,  and  subject  to  the  infirmities  of  poor  fallen  man — /  would  not  trust 
Aristides  himself  to  tax  me,  unless  he  were  responsible  to  me  for  the  faithful  execu- 
tion of  the  trust.  It  was  said,  by  one  of  the  wisest  statesmen  America  ever  produced,  ■> 
t\\zX  faith  was  necessary  to  salvation  hereafter,  but  in  this  world  jealousy  was  the  best 

*The  tax  on  law  process  was  not  included  in  the  Auditor's  report 'to  the  Convention,  and  is  not 
included  in  this  calculation.  It  has  since  been  ascertained  that  the  whole  amount  of  the  tax  on  law  pro- 
cess paid  into  the  public  Treasury  from  the  country  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge  in  the  year  1898,  was 
$  7,638  61.  If  this  sum  be  deducted  from  %  22,177,  there  will  still  be  a  deficiency  of  $  14,538  39,  with- 
out taking  into  the  estimate  any  appropriation  for  Internal  Improvements  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge — The 
precise  amount  of  deficiency  was  not  deemed  important ;  the  principle  object  was  to  show,  what  is  be- 
lieved to  be  a  fact,  that  the  whole  country  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge  did  not  pay  as  much  into  the  Trea- 
sury as  it  received  back. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


215 


security  for  the  preservation  of  man.  _  I  hare  no  fears  of  private  property  being 
endangered  from  individual  rapine.  ZSo,  Sir,  not  the  slightest;  but  I  am  unwilhng 
to  subject  property  to  taxation  by  agents  who  are  not  responsible  to  those  vrho  are 
compelled  to  pay  the  taxes. 

This  Hall,  seems  to  me.  Sir,  to  be  the  last  place  in  America  in  vrliich  this  doctrine 
of  political  faith  ouffht  to  he  held  out.  This  Hall  has  been  repeatedly  made  the  thea- 
tre on  which  the  ablest  men  Virginia  ever  produced,  have  eloquently  appealed  to  their 
fellow  citizens  to  resist  the  usurpations  of  the  General  Government  in  violation  of 
the  Constitution  of  the  United  States.  For  thirty  years,  the  violations  of  that  Con- 
stitution have  been  the  theme  of  complaint  by  Virginians.  "SVe  are  told  that  the  Con- 
stitution has  been  twice  violated  by  the  establishment  of  the  Banks  of  the  United 
States — has  been  violated  by  the  Alien  and  Sedition  laws — and  by  the  whole  system 
of  Tariff  laws  for  the  protection  of  domestic  manufactures.  These  violations,  too, 
are  said  to  have  been  committed  by  those  who  were  bound  by  tlie  solemn  obligation  of 
an  oath,  to  support  the  Constitution.  Prudence  forbids  my  inquiring,  here,  whether 
these  complaints  be  well  founded  or  not ;  it  is  enough  to  know  that  they  exist  to  pre- 
vent Virginians  from  trusting  to  a  sense  of  honour  and  the  restraints  of  conscience 
alone,  to  prevent  men  from  pursuing  their  own  interests  when  there  are  no  Consti- 
tutional provisions  in  the  way,  and  when  their  own  discretion  is  the  sole  measure  of 
their  power.  What  is  it  that  induces  one  part  of  the  country  to  support  and  another 
to  oppose  the  Tariff  laws  ?  Is  it  not  probable  that  interest  has  something  to  do  with 
it .'    There  is  no  doubt  of  it. 

It  has  been  frequently  said  in  the  progress  of  this  debate,  that  the  object  of  Wes- 
tern gentlemen  in  wishing  the  wiiite  basis  to  be  estabhshed,  was  to  enable  them  to 
obtain  the  passage  of  laws  for  the  promotion  of  a  system  for  the  internal  improve- 
ment of  their  country.  I  thought  the  magnanimity  and  candor  of  gentlemen  would 
prevent  them  from  denying  that  that  was  one  of  their  primary  objects.  What  else 
can  be  their  object  ?  Does  any  gentleman  pretend  that  the  security  of  personal 
rights  requires  the  adoption  of  this  principle  ?  Is  it  mere  theoretical  perfection  they 
aim  at.'  Or  is  it  not  rather  some  practical  advantage,  which  they  expect  to  result 
firom  it.'  I  had  like  to  have  said,  is  it  not  self  interest,  that  in  same  degree  prompts 
them 

I  hioic.  Sir,  that  some  of  the  leading  politicians  of  the  West  have  the  promotion  of 
internal  improvement  greatly  at  heart.  I  mention  this  in  no  reproachful  spirit — it  is 
honorable  to  them — and  if  they  did  not  wish  to  improve  their  country,  and  facilitate 
the  means  of  intercourse  by  roads  and  canals — they  would  be  imworthy  of  those  salu- 
brious hills  and  fertile  vallies  with  which  their  delightful  region  abounds.  I  am  my- 
self a  friend  to  internal  improvement.  I  consider  that  every  road  and  every  canal, 
connecting  the  East  and  the  We<t,  is  a  strong  bond  of  union — a  union  which  I  hope 
may  be  perpetual.  If  you  make  it  the  interest  of  men  to  be  imited,  they  will  be  very 
apt  to  remain  united  ;  and  if  you  make  it  their  interest  to  be  separated,  notliing  but 
the  strong  arm  of  power  can  hold  them  long  together.  If  I  were  a  member  of  the 
Legislatiire,  I  would  grant  pecuniary  assistance  to  my  Western  fellow  citizens,  in  no 
fifrudging  spirit,  for  the  improvement  of  their  country.  But  while  I  declare,  with 
<,  perfect  sincerity,  my  willingness  to  aid  my  fellow  citizens  of  the  West  in  this  oreat 
work  of  internal  improvement,  I  want  those  who  are  to  pay  the  expense  to  have  the 
power  of  judgincT  and  deciding  ichen,  for  ichat  purpose — and  to  ichat  extent  thev  will 
contribute  to  that  object.  No  one  is  so  competent  to  decide  upon  the  abihty  of  k  man 
t©  pay.  as  that  man  who  is  compelled  to  pay.  And  no  person  should  have  the  power 
of  deciding  how  much  shall  be  paid,  and  for  what  purposes,  except  the  tax-payer  him- 
self, or  his  immediate  and  responsible  representative — and  least  of  all,  should  the 
power  of  imposing  the  taxes  be  given  to  those  who  are  directly  interested  to  make 
laro-e  impositions. 

The  gentleman  from  Brooke  (Mr.  Doddridge)  told  us,  that  the  masters  of  slaves  in 
the  Easl,  wished  their  fellow  citizens  of  the  West  to  bow  their  necks  and  become  po- 
htical  slaves — and  that  if  the  amendment  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper 
prevails,  the  West  will  forever  be  subject  to  the  political  power  of  the  East.  With 
due  respect  to  that  gentleman,  I  must  beg  leave  to  difier  from  him.  If  the  white  po- 
pulation of  the  West  continues  to  increase  as  rapidly  hereafter,  as  it  has  done  since 
1S20,  and  the  taxes  for  each  white  person  in  the  different  sections  of  the  State  shall 
be  the  same  they  now  are.  then,  on  the  combined  basis,  in  1S56  one  half  of  the  dele- 
gates will  be  West  of  the  Ridge,  and  one  half  East ;  and  in  lS57,the  majority  would 
be  West  of  the  Ridge.  When  the  population  of  the  West  shall  so  increase  that  the 
majority  of  political  power  shall  be  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  that  country  will  not  be 
near  so  populous  as  the  Eastern  country  now  is.  The  trans-AUeghany  district  would 
then  have  about  17  iniiabitants  to  the  square  mile,  and  the  Valley  about  26:  and  at 
present  the  middle  country  has  23.  and  the  old  and  impoverished  tide  water  country  33 
to  the  square  mile.  If  other  gentlemen  are  disposed  to  object  to  this  estimate  of  the 
future  population  of  the  Western  sections  of  tins  State,  my  friend  from  Brooke  can- 


216 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


not  object  to  it,  because,  it  was  in  that  same  speech  he  told  us  that  in  thirty  years  the 
majority  would  be  West  of  the  Alleghany,  and  the  population  of  the  East  would  be  to 
the  West  but  as  a    drop  in  the  bucket.^' 

Although,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  decidedly  prefer  the  combined  basis  to  the  white  basis 
of  representation,  yet  I  should  be  willing  to  abandon  it  in  favor  of  di  graduated  county 
plan  of  representation,  if  such  an  one  can  be  adopted  as  will  protect  those  who  pay 
the  taxes  from  oppressive  burthens.  Many  of  the  counties  of  Virginia  have  been  in 
existence  for  200  years,  and  the  people  have  been  so  long  in  the  habit  of  forming 
county  associations,  and  having  separate  representation,  that  no  plan  could  be  accept- 
able to  the  people,  which  broke  up  these  ancient  county  boundaries.  I  would  adopt 
a  graduated  county  representation,  for  the  same  reason  that  induced  George  Mason 
and  the  other  wise  men  who  formed  the  Constitution  of  177G,  to  depart  in  the  Consti- 
tution from  the  literal  meaning  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  :  I  would  do  it,  because  it  is  best 
adapted  to  the  situation  of  Virginia.  By  this  plan,  the  political  power  of  the  country 
will  gradually  pass  to  the  West,  as  the  wealth  and  taxes  of  that  country  increase ; 
and  as  the  increasing  population  of  that  country  shall  render  the  formation  of  new 
counties  necessary  in  that  section  of  the  State  ;  while  no  new  counties  would  be 
formed  to  the  East. 

I  am  sorry,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  I  have  detained  the  Committee  so  long  at  this  late 
hour  of  the  day  ;  I  thank  the  Committee  for  their  attention,  and  will  conclude  with 
expressing  the  ardent  wish  that  this  important  question  may  be  so  settled  as  will  be 
satisfactory  to  the  whole  people  of  Virginia,  and  will  permanently  promote  their  pros- 
perity and  happiness. 

Mr.  Joynes  having  resumed  his  seat,  the  Committee  rose,  and  thereupon  the  House 
adjourned. 


FRIDAY,  November  6,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  its  sitting  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the 
Rev.  Mr.  Lee  of  the  Episcopal  Church. 

Mr.  Townes  of  Pittsylvania,  submitted  a  resolution,  which,  if  the  Convention 
thought  worthy  of  its  attention,  he  hoped  would  be  referred  to  the  Committee  of  the 
Whole. 

This  resolution,  read  by  the  Clerk,  is  as  follows  : 

"  Resolved,  That  all  propositions  for  laying  the  taxes,  or  appropriating  the  public 
money,  or  for  the  loan  of  money  upon  the  credit  of  the  State,  the  votes  of  the  mem- 
bers of  both  branches  of  the  General  Assembly,  representing  the  divisions  of  the 
State  hereafter  mentioned,  shall  avail,  in  proportion  to  the  amount  of  public  revenue 
collected  in  each  division  of  the  preceding  year.  A  majority  of  the  members  from 
each  division,  shall  give  the  vote  of  the  division  ;  to  which  end,  that  part  of  the  State 

which  is  composed  of  the  counties  of  ,  shall  be  one  division  ;  that  part  which 

is  composed  of  the  counties  of  ,  shall  be  another  division  ;  that  part  which  is 

composed  of  the  counties  of  ,  shall  be  another  division  ;  and  that  part  which  is 

composed  of  the  counties  of  ,  shall  be  another  division." 

Mr.  Townes  moved,  that  the  resolution  be  referred  to  the  Committee  of  the  Whole, 
which  was  agreed  to. 

The  President  then  submitted  a  letter  from  the  Presbyterian  Synod  of  Virginia, 
(which  had  just  had  its  meeting  in  this  city,)  expressing  their  cordial  concurrence  in 
the  principles  of  toleration,  which  had  marked  the  proceedings  of  the  Convention. 
This  letter  was  read  as  follows  : 

"  At  the  Sessions  of  the  Synod  of  Virginia,  held  in  the  First  Presbyterian  Church 
in  the  city  of  Richmond,  on  the  31st  of  October,  A.  D.  1829,  the  following  resolution 
was  unanimously  adopted : 

Resolved  unanimously,  That  the  Synod  of  Virginia  have  observed  with  great 
satisfaction,  that  the  Convention  now  assembled  to  form  a  new  Constitution  for  the 
People  of  this  Commonwealth,  are  proposing  and  doubtless  intending  to  preserve  and 
perpetuate  the  sacred  principle — Liberty  of  Conscience — declared  in  the  Bill  of  Rights 
and  developed  in  the  Act  establishing  Religious  Freedom,  as  a  part  of  the  fundamen- 
tal law  of  the  land  ;  and  they  do  hereby  solemnly  proclaim,  that  they  continue  to  es- 
teem and  cherish  that  principle  for  which  the  Presbyterian  Church  in  this  State,  and 
throughout  the  United  States,  have  ever  zealously  and  heartily  contended,  as  the 
clearest  right  and  the  most  precious  privilege  that  freemen  can  exert. 

"  Resolved,  That  John  H.  Rice,  D.'D.  Conrad  Speece,  D.  D.  and  William  Maxwell, 
be  a  committee  to  communicate  a  copy  of  the  foregoing  resolution  to  the  President  of 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONTEVTION. 


217 


the  Convention,  to  be  very  re-':iec'::\:"^v 
shall  deem  most  proper  and  convenient, 

■•  Frakci;  AITARLAyx',  Clerk  of  Synod." 


submitted  to  thai  bocv  at  such  time  as  he 
*nVAI,  HILL.  Mcderaior. 


On  Air.  Savior's  motion,  this  paper  was  laid  on  the  table — Air.  N.  moved  also  to 
have  it  printed,  and  on  taking  the  question,  the  voices  seemed  to  be  ag-ainst  it :  on 
Mr.  Xaylor's  saving,  that  Le  vrould  be  content  vrith  the  spreading  of  it  on  the  Journals 
of  the  Convention,  no  coimt  vras  taken. 

The  Convention  haviiig  gone  into  Committee  of  tiie  "Whole.  Mr.  Povrell  in  the 
Chair : 

Mr.  FiTZHUGH  addressed  the  Committee  : 

1  had  determined.  IMr.  Chairman,  to  take  no  part  in  this  discussion,  but  to  give  a 
silent  vote  on  the  Question  before  you.  and  to  rest  my  justification  for  doing  so.  on 
the  character  of  this  bodv.  Circumstances,  hovrever.  have  recently  occurred,  which 
have  changed  mv  deterinination.  Mv  sentiments,  at  all  times  folly.,  fairly,  and  free- 
ly expressed,  and"  on  no  subiect  more  iairly  or  more  fully  expressed  than  on  this,  have, 
it  seems,  become  a  matter  of  speculatiGn  amongst  those  whom  I  have  the  honor  to 
represent.  By  what  agency  this  has  been  ejected.  I  have  not  yet  been  able  to  learn. 
Nor  is  it  material.  I  know  very  well,  however,  the  means  by  which  an  honorable 
and  high-minded  people  may  be  disabused,  in  relation  to  a  faithful  representative  ; 
and.  if  in  seeking  to  emplov  them  on  the  present  occasion.  I  should  seem  to  be  offer- 
ing instruction  to  the  venerable  men  around  me.  who  axe  so  much  better  fitted  by 
their  age.  their  wdsdom.  and  their  experience,  to  give,  than  to  receive  instruction,  I 
trust  I  shall  find  a  sufficient  apology  vrith  them  at  least.- in  the  peculiarity  of  mj 
situation. 

I  am  an  advocate.  Sir.  for  the  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee.  I  am  so, 
because  I  believe  its  design  to  be.  what  I  am  sure  its  effect  must  be.  so  to  organize  the 
Government  of  the  State,  that  its  future  laws  shall  emanate  from,  a  majority  of  its  re- 
cognized voters.  In  declaring  my  preference  for  this  principle.  I  hope  to  reheve  my- 
self from  the  imputations  so  profusely  cast  upon  its  advocates,  by  disclaiming  all  au- 
thoritv  for  it.  as  derived  rioxxx  the  laws  of  nature,  and  all  support  for  it.  founded  on 
metaphysical  abstractions.  I  view  it.  on  the  contrary,  as  one  of  those  plain  and  prac- 
tieal  principles,  which  the  common  sense  and  experience  of  mankind  have  sdmost 
constituted  into  a  political  axiom. 

Let  me  not  be  understood  as  wishing  to  impaix;  in  the  smallest  degree,  the  charac- 
ter of  the  Bill  of  Bights.  No.  Sir.  1  recognize  almost  all  its  principles,  when  prac- 
tieally  construed,  as  sacred.  All  men.  for  insiance.  are  by  nature  -  equally  free  and 
independent."  But.  G-od  forbid  that  I  should  so  far  disregard  the  Hghts  of  reason 
and  of  common  sense,  as  to  infer  &om  hence,  a  pohtical  equahty  that  must  accom- 
pany man  through  all  the  various  modes  and  changes  of  pohtical  society.  Pohtical 
right.  Sir,  or  more  properly,  pohtical  power,  is  the  creature  of  Convention,  and  the 
very  same  instrument  that  ascribes  to  all  men  a  perfect  equahty  in  the  formation  of 
this  Convention,  recognizes  in  the  commTmity  of  its  creation,  a  perfect  right  not  only 
to  establish  that  Government,  which  it  deems  capable  of  producing  the  greatest 
degree  of  happiness  and  safety."'  but  to  change  it  *•  whenever  found  inadequate  or 
contrary  to  the  purposes  for  which  it  was  intended.'' 

When,  then,  we  speak  of  the  nararal  equahty  of  man.  we  mean  only  that  no  one, 
in  the  original  organization  of  Government,  can  claim  a  natural  superiority  to  ano- 
ther :  that  all  may  enter,  or  refuse  to  enter,  into  the  compact  proposed,  as  to  them 
may  seem  best :  and  that  they  may  .  in  the  language  of  the  BiU  of  Bights  ,  select  that 
Government,  which  they  deem  capable  of  producing  the  greatest  degree  of  happi- 
ness and  safety."  The  relative  power  of  each,  is  of  course  to  be  determined  by  ■flie 
compact  itself;  and  ail  that  can  be  asked  on  this  subject,  is,  that  it  should  be  ref- 
lated by  reason  and  justice. 

"VTith  the  gentleman  iioxD.  Orange.  Air.  Baibo'jLr.  I  agree  in  recrarding  as  the  wisest 
pohtical  maxim  ever  uttered,  the  declaration  of  Solon  •■  that  h'e  had  given  to  the 
Athenians,  not  the  best  Government  ru  cotild  have  nramed.  but  the  best  theitweie  ca- 
pable of  receiving."  This,  in  truth,  is  the  fotmdation  of  all  good  Government.  In 
opposition  to  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  i  Mr.  L'ushur.''  it  admits  the  existence 
of  principles  in  pohtics.  It  recognizes  a  standard  in  Government,  as  well  as  in  mo- 
rals and  in  taste  }  and  it  recognizes  also,  the  propriety  of  varying  fi-om  that  standard, 
as  circumstances  may  require. 

V<"::':_       =  r  :  "  . ^  - r.  :r.-  '■3rt.  Sir.  I  only  claim  from  gentlemen  opposed  to 

rae.  :;:         .  -    ~  ^-  :    :  ^1-  forms  of  Government.  t"ne  Bepubhean  form  is 

best  ;  tnr.  in  :..t  .^r  :  r.s  •:■ :  v.-er.  all  other  things  being  ecuil.  t::e  suureme  au- 
thority should  be  vested  i:i  the  ntroritx.  rather  than  in  the  minT.-.y  :  r-r.d  that  as  all 
departures  from  tins  principle  are  evils,  thev  should  so  no  fartxxci  i:ia.n  mav  be  ie« 

2S  '  ' 


218 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


quired  by  the  actual  necessity  of  the  case  ;  and  this  enables  me  to  proceed  at  once  to 
the  practical  consideration  of  the  question  before  us. 

The  resolution  of  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  (Mr.  Green)  proposes  so  to  amend 
the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  as  to  base  representation  on  population  and 
taxation  combined.  For  the  present,  it  is  true,  it  embraces  but  one  branch  of  the 
Legislature  ;  but  I  feel  myself  justified  in  inferring  from  the  arguments  urged  in  its 
support,  both  here  and  elsewhere,  that  the  real  design  is  to  organize  the  whole  Legis- 
lative Department  on  this  principle ;  and  of  course  to  transfer  to  a  minority  of  the  re- 
cognized voters  of  the  State,  the  exclusive  power  of  enacting  all  the  laws  of  the 
State. 

When  a  proposition  of  this  extraordinary  character,  totally  at  war  with  the  princi- 
ples I  have  heretofore  sustained,  is  made,  I  must  be  pardoned  for  examining  both  its 
extent  and  the  reasons  by  which  it  is  supported,  before  I  yield  it  my  assent.  I  la- 
ment that  in  doing  so,  I  shall  be  compelled  to  resort  to  any  thing  in  the  shape  of  sta- 
tistical exhibits. 

■  _  I  know  very  well,  that  in  debate,  statistics  are  always  disgusting,  and  seldom  effi- 
cient ;  but  I  feel,  that  on  the  present  occasion,  I  cannot  more  clearly  illustrate  the 
propositions  I  mean  to  sustain,  than  hy  a  few  short  and  simple  details,  extracted  from 
the  reports  of  the  Auditor, 

If  a  line  be  drav/n  from  the  waters  of  the  Chappawamsic,  (a  stream  insignificant 
in  itself,  but  rendered  classic  by  the  eloquent  allusions  so  often  made  to  it  elsewhere,) 
to  the  southwestern  corner  of  the  county  of  Patrick,  the  State  will  be  thrown  into 
two  divisions ;  each  embracing  eleven  Congressional  Districts.  And  if,  as  T  under- 
stand from  those  who  have  made  the  calculation,  a  representation  based  on  Federal 
numbers  be  but  little  different  from  a  representation  based  on  population  and  taxation 
combined,  each  of  these  divisions  will  be  entitled,  on  the  principle  of  the  amendment, 
to  an  equal  number  of  representatives  in  the  future  Legislature.  But  the  documents 
supplied  us  by  the  Auditor  shew,  that  while  the  western  division,  embracing  among 
others  the  District  I  have  the  honor  to  represent,  contains  349,720  white  inhabitants, 
the  lower  or  Eastern  division,  contains  only  253,361;  leaving  a  balance  in  favour  of 
the  former,  of  96,369. 

I  think  it  proper  to  remark,  in  relation  to  this  statement,  that  it  is  derived  from  the 
Census  of  1820,  as  presenting  the  only  authentic  source  of  information  on  this  subject. 
And  I  have  felt  the  less  difficulty  in  resorting  to  it,  rather  than  to  the  uncertain  cal- 
culations of  the  Auditor,  as  to  the  probable  population  of  the  State  in  1829,  because, 
although  the  use  of  the  latter  might  have  occasioned  a  little  difference  of  result  in 
figures,  it  would  not  have  affected,  in  the  smallest  degree,  the  principle  for  which  I 
am  contending. 

But  the  subject  may  be  presented  in  a  still  stronger  point  of  view,  by  a  reference 
to  the  relative  vote  of  the  two  divisions.  I  find  that  on  the  Convention  question,  the 
Western  division  gave  23,096  votes  ;  while  the  Eastern  gave  only  15,437  ;  leaving  a 
majority  in  favour  of  the  former,  of  7,559.  An  idea,  I  know,  at  one  time  prevailed, 
that  a  large  number  of  bad  votes  had  been  given  in  the  Western  country,  and  that 
the  expression  of  public  opinion  on  that  occasion,  furnished  of  course  no  fair  test  of 
the  relative  strength  of  the  different  parts  of  the  State.  But  it  so  happens,  that  the 
vote  of  the  two  divisions  was  very  nearly  in  proportion  to  their  population  in  1820. 
Whereas,  if  the  relative  increase  of  population  has  been  as  much  greater  in  the  West, 
as  has  been  supposed,  and  a  full  vote  had  been  taken^  the  majority  ought  to  have  been 
very  far  beyond  what  was  actually  obtained. 

But  taking  the  case  as  it  is,  it  presents  this  obvious  result :  that  23,096  voters  in 
that  division  of  the  State  from  which  I  come,  are,  on  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from 
Culpeper,  to  elect  no  more  representatives  in  the  legislative  body  than  15,436  in  the 
lower  division.  In  other  words,  that  sixteen  votes  heloio  tide-water,  are  hereafter  to 
outweigh  in  the  political  scale,  twenty-three  votes  above  tide-water;  and  that  solely 
on  account  of  their  superior  wealth. 

I  will  not  stop  for  the  present,  to  inquire  whether  this  be  reasonable  and  just ;  but 
I  do  ask,  in  the  same  spirit  in  which  the  question  was  propounded  by  the  gentleman 
from  Norfolk,  (Mr.  Taylor,)  whether  such  an  arrangement  of  political  power  would 
be  consistent  with  the  republican  principles  of  our  Government If  it  were  proposed 
to  introduce  it  into  our  county  elections,  to  graduate  the  influence  of  votes  by  the 
wealth  that  accompanied  them,  to  give  to  sixteen  affluent  men  the  power  to  select  their 
favorite  representatives  in  opposition  to  the  united  voices  of  three  and  twenty  of  their 
poorer  neighbours,  can  there  be  a  doubt  of  the  spirit  in  which  it  would  t>e  met 
Would  it  not  encounter  a  tone  of  indignant  remonstrance,  in  every  corner  and  section 
of  the  State,  minghng  itself,  as  well  with  the  lowland  wave,  as  with  the  mountain  tor- 
rent ? 

And  is  the  principle  varied Is  its  enormity  lessened  ?  Are  its  evils  avoided  by 
the  sectional  character  with  which  it  is  proposed  to  invest  it  ?  To  my  mind.  Sir,  this 
is  its  most  objectionable  shape.    When  inequalities  are  created  amongst  those  who  are 


DEBATES    OF   THE  COXVEXTIOX. 


219 


living  in  constant  communion  with  each  otlier.  and  whose  general  interests  are  one 
and  the  same,  the  spirit  of  oppression  is  controlled  by  the  influence  of  social  inter- 
course ;  and  the  lust  of  power,  if  it  yield  not  to  the  suggestions  of  patriotism;  is  lost 
amid  the  calculations  of  extended  and  uniform  interests. 

But  when  these  inequalities  are  sectional ;.  when  the  few  in  one  quarter  are  empow- 
ered to  control  the  many  in  another  ;  where,  to  what  benignant  influence  are  the 
latter  to  look  for  protection  to  their  feehngs  and  their  interests  .-  2sot  to  the  justice 
and  magnanimity  of  those  in  power  :  for  we  have  been  emphatically  told  by  gentle- 
men, that  interest  is  the  ruhng,  if  not  the  only  spring  of  action  to  man  :  and  surely 
they  will  not  ask  from  the  majority;  a  confidence,  on  which;  from  the  beginning;  they 
have  refused  to  rely.  Xor  can  that  majority  depend  for  security,  on  the  prevalence 
of  a  general  interest  throughout  the  country  ;.  for  the  very  concession  demanded  of 
them  rests  for  its  justification  on  the  existence  of  separate  and  distinct  interests. 

But.  again.  Sir;  if  sixteen  voters  are.  by  the  instrmnentahty  of  wealth  alone,  to  be 
made  superior  to  twenty-three,  where  are  you  to  stop  .-  Where  are  you  to  draw  the 
precise  hne  of  demarcation  to  kepubhcan  Government  ?  .Must  not  the  same  princi- 
ple, under  a  change  of  circumstances,  concentrate  power  in  yet  fewer  hands.'  If, 
as  the  gentleman  from  Northampton  (Mr.  Upshur)  supposes,  a  majority  of  interests  must 
always  prevail;  may  not  that  majority,  which  is  now  confined  to  sixteen  in  thirty-nine, 
attach  itseh",  in  the  progress  of  individual  accumulation,  to  nine,  to  three,  or  even  to  one  r 
And  when,  under  the  influence  of  their  faj^ite  principle;  power  shall  be  thus  concen- 
trated; shall  I  be  told  that  we  are  yet  a  Repubhcan  people  ?  1  will  not  say.  that  in  the 
proorress  of  events,  such  a  change  in  our  Government  mav  not  become  necessarv-  I 
will  not  saV;  that  a  state  of  things  might  not  be  imaofined.  in  which  I  mvself  should 
be  constrained  to  vote  for  it.  But  the  same  page  that  would  contain  the  record  of  my 
vote,  would  present  in  connection  witli  it.  the  declaration  that  Virginia  was  no  lono;er 
fitted  for  a  Republican  Government.  But  suppose  that  in  all  this  I  am  mistaken,  and 
that  our  Republican  principles  are  not  endangered  by  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman 
from  Culpeper.  We  are  certainly  about  to  depart;  and  in  no  measured  deoree.  from 
that  plain  and  simple  rule  of  Government;  sustained  by  expediency,  no  less  than  by 
reason  and  justice;  which  confides  the  power  of  legislation  to  a  majority  rather  than 
a  minority.  Is  there  any  reason  for  this  departure  r  And  if  there  be,  is  it  not  now 
proposed  to  go  far  beyond  what  the  necessity  of  the  case  requires  .-  The  lower  divi- 
sion, to  which  I  have  referred,  it  is  acknowledged;  contains  a  larger  amount  of  pro- 
perty and  pays  a  greater  proportion  of  taxes  tlian  the  upper,  (the  excess  about  854.000.) 
and  hence  it  is  inferred,  that  unless  the  power  contended  for;  be  obtained,  property 
will  be  without  an  adequate  protection.  If  this  can  be  made  manifest;  I  pledge  my- 
self to  abandon  the  principles  I  have  brought  with  me  to  this  discussion,  and  to  go 
alonop  with,  and  iinder  the  guidance  of,  the  gentlemen  from  below. 

Security  to  property.  Sir  :  who  does  not  feel  its  necessity  Who  of  the  numbers 
that  are  present,  does  not  concur  with  the  gentleman  from  Xorthampton.  in  thinking 
that  security  to  property  is  the  most  efiicient.  if  not  the  only  security  to  personj3 
risrhts  .'  Is  it  of  any  consequence  to  me  to  be  able  to  keep  my  body  beyond  the  hmits 
of  a  jail,  to  roam  where  I  pleasC;  to  do  what  I  please,  or  even  to  contribute  by  my, 
vote  to  organize  the  Government  under  which  I  am  to  live,  if  that  very  Government 
is  to  be  empowered,  whenever  it  shall  think  proper;  to  wrest  from  me  the  means  of 
my  subsistence,  and  to  throw  me  poor  and  penny  less  on  a  heartless  world  1 

No;  Sir,  the  property  of  the  country  ought  to  be.  and  must  be  protected;  at  aU 
hazards  ;  but  let  gentlemen  beware,  lest  in  providing  for  its  security,  they  expose  it 
to  dangers  tliat  do  not  naturally  surround  it :  lest  in  attempting  to  throw  aroimd  it 
the  robes  of  protection,  they  incautiously  invest  it  with  the  shirt  of  Xessus.  To  a 
certain  extent,  property  carries  witiiin  itself  the  means  of  its  own  protection.  2\ot 
in  its  corrupting  influence,  as  referred  to  by  the  gentleman  from  Northampton  :  but 
in  the  facihties  it  aflbrds  for  acquiring  knowledge  and  diilusing  benefits.  It  ought  to 
be  the  aim,  as  it  is  witMn  the  scope  of  political  institutions,  to  fortify  and  strengthen 
this  power  of  self- protection.  Let  them  guard  it  by  just  regulations  against  improper 
invasions.  Let  them  increase  its  facilities  for  action,  in  all  cases  where  its  aim  is  to 
procure  legitimate  advantages  to  its  owner,  or  gratuitous  benefits  to  the  commimity 
in  which  it  exists.  And  let  it  be  limited  in  its  power  of  corruptuag  and  oppressing, 
not  by  giving  to  it  political  power,  but  by  rendering  it  amenable  to  the  majesty  of  the 
laws  it  would  violate;  and  to  the  indignant  justice  of  the  people,  whose  honesty  it 
would  corrupt. 

But  this  is  not  all.  I  would  not  stop  here,  even  though  in  proceeding  farther;  I 
may  stray  from  the  ranks  in  which  I  have  hitherto  been  fighting.  I  would  provide 
for  the  protection  of  property  in  the  verv  foundations  of  Government.  I  would  fur- 
nish to  it;  that  verv  securitv,  modified  in  form  onlv,  to  wliich  the  gentleman  from 
Hanover  appealed.' as  an  evidence  of  the  sentiments  of  our  forefathers.  With  them, 
I  would  commit  the  right  of  suffrage  to  such  onlv  as  could  give  evidence  of  perma- 
nent connuon  interest  in  the  community."    I  would  allow  no  man  to  participate  in 


220 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


laying  the  taxes,  who  did  not  also  participate  in  paying  them.  This  I  hold  to  be  the 
best  security  for  property  ;  a  security  which  gives  to  it  the  only  political  power  to 
which  it  is  entitled,  or  with  which  it  can  be  safely  entrusted.  Here  then,  let  gentle- 
men plant  their  standard  ;  here  unfurl  their  banner  ;  and  they  will  draw  around 
them,  if  not  all,  a  very  large  proportion  of  the  intelligence  as  well  as  the  property  of 
the  State. 

But  this  general  security  to  property,  I  am  told,  is  not  the  object  aimed  at ;  and 
that  nothing  is  accomplished  while  the  many  are  authorized  to  levy  on  the  few,  a  hea- 
vier tax  than  they  themselves  are  required  or  have  it  in  their  power  to  pay.  The  gentle- 
man from  Hanover,  indeed,  has  gone  so  far  as  to  declare,  that  this  is  the  very  princi- 
ple, against  which,  our  ancestors  so  gallantly  and  so  successfully  contended;  and 
that  it  constitutes  in  fact  the  very  consummation  of  tyranny.  And  does  the  gentle- 
man really  think,  that  if  the  Government  be  organized  as  we  propose,  the  people  of 
th^  lower  country  will  stand  to  their  Western  brethren,  in  the  same  relation  that  our 
forefathers  occupied  towards  Great  Britain — or  to  use  his  own  words,  that  we  now 
occupy  towards  the  Government  of  Ohio  ?  Will  he  consider  himself  taxed  without 
his  consent,  because  his  representative  may  be  ranked  among  the  minority  in  the 
legislative  vote — or  because  some  particular  tax  may  possibly  bear  harder  on  himself 
or  his  county,  than  on  other  parts  of  his  State  ?  If  so,  we  have  hitherto  lived 
under  the  rankest  despotism ;  for  it  will  be  found  by  reference  to  the  tabular  state- 
ments of  the  Auditor,  that  the  middle  cou^ry  lying  on  either  side  of  the  Blue  Ridge, 
while  it  possesses  a  large  majority  of  the  property  of  the  State  and  is  annually  paying 
nearly  $  30,000  more  than  the  rest  of  the  State,  has  in  the  House  of  Delegates  forty- 
two  representatives  less  than  the  Western  and  Eastern  divisions  united. 

Gentlemen  must  pardon  me  for  saying,  that  on  this  subject,  their  arguments  have 
gone  beyond  the  proposition  they  have  intended  to-support ;  and  that  in  pourtraying 
what  they  deemed  the  incompatible  interests  of  the  East  and  of  the  West,  they  have 
gone  far  to  establish  another  proposition,  that  the  Ancient  Dominion  is  no  longer  fit- 
ted for  a  single  Government.  I  confess,  indeed,  Sir,  that  I  was  shocked  and  alarmed, 
when  I  heard  the  solemnity  with  which  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  in  particu- 
lar, declared  the  integrity  of  the  State  to  be  now  only  the  second  wish  of  his  heart ; 
and  that  unless  the  whole  powers  of  legislation  were  thrown  into  the  hands  of  a  mi- 
nority, he  for  one,  was  prepared  for  a  division  of  the  State. 

[Mr.  Leigh  here  rose  to  explain.  He  said  the  gentleman  from  Fairfax  had 
strangely  misconceived  the  character  of  his  remarks.  What  he  had  said,  was,  that 
the  preservation  of  the  State  entire,  was  the  second  consideration  with  him.  The 
first  was,  that  the  entire  State  should  have  a  free  and  regular  Republican  Government, 
founded  upon  the  mutual  interests  of  all,  with  a  just  balance  of  those  interests, 
where  they  are  conflicting.] 

Mr,  Fitzhugh  resumed.  I  did  not  misunderstand  the  gentleman,  I  sincerely  wish 
I  had  done  so.  He  did  not,  it  is  true,  desire  the  division  of  the  State,  if  the  Govern- 
ment should  be  organized  on  what  he  deemed  fair  principles  ;  but  when  he  came  to 
explain  himself  in  relation  to  these  principles,  they  consisted  in  throwing  the  whole 
power  of  legislation  into  the  hands  of  a  minority  of  the  people.  Against  the  doctrine 
of  disunion,  I  have  uniformly  protested,  let  it  come  from  what  quarter  it  might.  I 
would  preserve  the  integrity  of  the  State  at  all  hazards.  (Mr.  Upshur  here  nodded 
assent.)  The  gentleman  from  Northampton  agrees  with  me.  I  rejoice  at  it.  He  is 
one  of  the  earliest  of  my  friends,  whom  I  have  had  the  pleasure  to  meet  on  the  pre- 
sent occasion ;  and  I  thought,  from  my  recollection  of  his  character  in  former  days, 
as  well  as  from  what  I  have  seen  of  him  here,  I  might  rely  on  his  zealous  co-operation 
in  whatever  would  have  a  tendency  to  promote  the  harmony  of  our  deliberations,  and 
to  preserve  the  unity  of  the  State. 

But,  Sir,  to  return  to  the  subject  from  which  I  was  called  off  by  the  gentleman 
from  Chesterfield.  If  it  be  really  so  tyrannical  to  vest  in  a  majority,  a  power  to  levy 
taxes  to  which  they  themselves  are  to  contribute  in  proportion  to  their  property,  what 
shall  we  say  to  the  converse  of  the  proposition,  where  the  minority  are  to  be  entrusted 
not  only  with  the  purse  strings,  but  with  the  lives  and  liberties  of  those,  in  whom 
they  are  unwilling  to  recognize  any  general  community  of  interest  with  themselves  ? 
If  there  be  tyranny  in  the  case,  it  is  here,  where  the  interests  and  wishes  of  a  few  are 
to  be  substituted  for  the  interests  and  wishes  of  the  whole. 

To  that  argument  which  has  been  deduced  from  the  peculiar  character  of  the  pro- 
perty most  prevalent  in  the  Eastern  section  of  the  State,  I  am  willing  to  allow  its  full 
weight.  Participating  very  largely  in  that  description  of  property  myself,  I  cannot 
be  otherwise  than  alive  to  any  dangers  that  may  seem  to  threaten  it.  And  be  assured, 
Sir,  that  my  own  interest  independently  of  a  sense  of  justice,  will  at  all  times  secure 
my  zealous  co-operation,  in  whatever  may  be  necessary  to  protect  it  against  dangers, 
either  present  or  in  prospective. 

What  then  are  the  dangers  to  which  it  is  really  exposed  ?  None,  I  apprehend,  and 
■  none,  in  truth,  to  v/hich  reference  has  been  made,  but  that  of  excessive  taxation. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


221 


And  even  this  is  acknowledged  to  be  very  much  diminished  by  the  diffusion  of  the 
property  in  question  over  every  portion  of  the  State.  Yes,  Sir,  slavery  unfortunately 
exists  even  in  the  remotest  regions  of  the  West,  and  if  its  subjects  be  less  numerous 
there,  than  along  the  shores  of  the  Atlantic,  their  general  distribution,  in  smaller 
numbers,  especially  in  the  Valley,  ensures  an  interest  in  relation  to  them.,  that  will 
not  fail  to  unite  with  the  more  powerful  interest  in  the  East,  in  opposing  any  attempt- 
ed injustice,  in  relation  to  them. 

But  I  for  one,  am  not  disposed  to  rest  on  this  as  my  only  dependence.  The  very 
fact,  that  this  description  of  property  has  hitherto  borne  so  disproportionate  a  part  of 
the  public  burdens,  renders  it  a  fit  subject  for  constitutional  protection.  And  it  is 
with  this  view,  that  I  have  already  proposed  so  to  limit  the  power  of  taxation,  as  to 
distribute  the  impositions  of  Government  among  the  different  descriptions  of  property, 
exactly  in  proportion  to  their  relative  value.  The  effect  of  this  must  of  course  be, 
what  all  will  acknowledge  to  be  just,  to  reduce  the  tax  on  slaves  to  precisely  the  same 
level  witli  all  the  other  faxes  of  the  State. 

But  I  am  told  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  that  this  is  a  mere  paper  guar- 
antee, to  be  executed  or  not,  as  the  whim  and  caprice  of  the  majority  may  hereafter 
determine. 

A  paper  guarantee  !  And  what,  Sir,  are  all  the  limitations  on  the  powers  of  the 
Government,  provided  by  the  present  Constitution  ?  What,  that  verv  organization  of 
the  Legislative  Department  you  are  so  pertinaciousl}^  seeking  to  establish  What,  in 
fine,  is  the  Constitution  itself.?  All,  all  mere  paper  guarantees  !  And  when  these 
shall  have  become,  in  truth,  as  valueless  as  they  are  represented  to  be,  the  fact  itself 
will  furnish  conclusive  evidence  of  the  progress  of  corruption,  and  of  the  unfitness 
of  the  State  for  the  continuance  of  Republican  Government.  Until  then,  however, 
I  must  be  permitted  to  hope,  that  the  provision  in  question,  if  adopted,  will  furnish 
us  ample  security  against  the  apprehended  danger  of  excessive  taxation. 

Nor,  Su-,  does  it  seem  to  me  more  difficult  to  provide  against  another  apprehended 
evil.  I  mean  the  unjust  distribution  of  the  public  revenue  with  a  view  to  internal 
improvement.  The  gentleman  from  Fauquier  (Mr.  Scott)  has  exhibited  this  danger 
in  all  its  details.  He  has  presented  to  us  every  variety  of  interest.  Eastern  and 
Western,  Northern  and  Southern,  upland  and  lowland,  and  has  called  on  us  of  the 
middle  country  especially  to  look  to  our  own  immediate  interests  on  this  subject. 
Mr.  Chairman,  I  cannot  act  in  this  spirit.  I  should  deeply  lament  its  introduction 
into  this  body.  I  am  an  advocate  for  the  improvement  of  every  portion  of  the  State, 
and  I  am  willing,  for  myself  as  well  as  my  constituents,  to  contribute  fairly  and  freely 
to  its  accomplishment.  Ail  that  I  require,  is,  that  the  public  funds  shall  be  judiciously 
distributed,  and  with  a  national  and  not  a  sectional  spirit. 

With  this  view,  and  especially  to  quiet  any  well  founded  fears  of  the  East,  I  would 
consecrate  in  the  Constitution,  that  wise  provision  on  which  our  Fund  for  Internal 
Improvement  so  long  reposed,  and  from  which  T,  amongst  others,  was  tempted,  in 
*'  evil  hour,"  to  depart.  Yes,  Sir,  the  best  security  for  a  just  and  judicious  applica- 
tion of  the  public  treasure,  is  to  dispose  of  it  only  in  connection  with  individual  con- 
tribution. Had  this  principle  been  sustained  until  now,  we  should  have  been  grati- 
fied by  the  general  diffusion  of  our  system  over  every  part  of  the  State ;  and  instead 
of  contemplating  a  Bankrupt  Fund,  buried  in  the  waters  of  a  single  stream,  we  micrht 
have  prepared  ourselves  to  enter  upon  a  new  career  of  internal  improvement,  with 
unimpaired  resources  and  unbroken  spirit. 

I  beg  leave  to  return,  for  a  single  moment,  to  the  idea  of  the  gentleman  from  North- 
ampton, that  the  Legislative  power  of  the  Government  should  rest  with  a  majority  of 
interests  rather  than  of  persons.  Does  he  really  think  that  this  ever  was  or  ever  can 
be  accomplished  in  a  Republican  Government?  Does  he  believe  that  the  interests  of 
the  majority,  by  which  the  Legislature  is  elected  are  ever  predominant.'  or  that  in  any 
county  the  selection  of  representatives  can  be  made  by  those  who  are  to  contribute 
most  largely  to  the  revenue  of  the  State.  I  hold  in  my  hand.  Sir,  a  letter  from  the 
Commissioner  of  the  revenue  in  my  own  county,  giving  this  important  information; 
that  of  1281  male  titheables,  paying  upwards  of  $3,500  taxes,  535  contribute  only 
^35.  His  examination  has  gone  no  farther;  but  I  have  very  little  doubt  that  if  pro- 
secuted, it  would  have  shewn  that  three-fourths  of  the  taxes  of  the  county  are  paid 
by  less  than  100  of  its  citizens.  And  does  the  gentleman  think  that  to  these  100  in- 
dividuals, the  entire  control  of  the  county  could  be  given  consistently  with  the  gene- 
ral character  of  our  Republican  institutions  ?  To  attempt  it,  in  reference  to  the  State, 
would  be  not  less  impolitic,  and  infinitely  more  unjust. 

To  any  proposition,  then,  Mr.  Chairman,  going  to  confide  to  a  minority  of  the  legi- 
timate voters  of  the  State,  the  entire  control  of  both  branches  of  the  Legislature,  I 
cannot,  under  any  circumstances,  give  my  assent.  Hardly  less  objectionable,  is  the 
proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  now  under  consideration,  to  give  such 
control,  over  the  most  popular  branch.  Even  this  goes  very  far  beyond  what  gentle- 
men profess  to  ask,  the  protection  of  property,  and  in  all  cases  of  the  joint  action  of 


222 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


the  two  Houses,  whether  referring-  to  persons  or  property,  elevates  the  minority  above 
the  majority.  The  former  and  not  the  latter  are  to  elect  your  Senators,  your  Gov- 
ernors and  your  Judges;  and  to  proclaim,  from  time  to  time,  the  relation  in  which 
you  stand  to  the  General  Government.  Sir,  I  cannot  assent  to  this.  To  the  will  of 
the  community,  fairly  and  legitimately  expressed,  I  shall  at  all  times  bow  with  perfect 
submission.  But  I  cannot  recognize  as  the  deliberate  sentiment  of  the  whole,  the  will 
of  a  minority,  congregated  in  a  particular  section  of  the  State,  and  expressing  the  pe- 
culiar feelings  and  wishes  of  those,  whom  they  more  immediately  represent. 

Gentlemen  are  mistaken  in  the  precedents  on  which  they  rely.  There  is  not  one 
of  them  that  goes  to  sustain  the  proposition  contended  for  here,  that  the  whole  power 
of  legislation  ought  to  be  confided  to  a  minority.  The  case  of  the  United  States  is 
hardly  applicable  at  all.  That  Government  was  a  compact  amongst  independent  sove- 
reignties, and  regulated  in  almost  all  its  Departments,  on  a  principle  of  compromise. 
If  Virginia  obtained  in  one  branch  of  the  National  Legislature,  a  representation  be- 
yond her  white  population,  she  fully  paid  for  it  in  the  other,  by  admitting  the  little 
States  of  Rhode  Island,  Delaware,  &c.  to  an  equal  participation  of  power  with  her- 
self. Nor  does  any  State  that  I  know  of,  furnisli  an  example  of  organization  in  both 
Houses,  with  a  view  to  the  representation  of  property.  In  the  States  of  New  Hamp- 
shire, Massachusetts,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  and  perhaps  one  or  two  others,  pro- 
perty, it  is  true,  is  avowedly  provided  with  a  check  in  one  House  ;  but  in  a  large  ma- 
jority of  the  States,  both  old  and  new,  so  far  as  Legislative  representation  has  been 
controlled  by  any  thing  beyond  mere  convenience,  it  has  been  fixed  solely  in  refer- 
ence to  white  population. 

Whether  we  ought  to  depart  at  all,  from  this  latter  principle,  must  depend  on  con- 
tingencies that  cannot  yet  be  calculated.  If  the  legitimate  claims  of  property  to  pro- 
tection be  not  sufiiciently  regarded  in  the  other  provisions  of  the  Constitution,  it  be- 
comes a  question  of  expediency,  how  far  they  ought  to  be  secured  by  a  check  on  the 
power  of  the  majority,  in  the  less  numerous  branch  of  the  Legislature ;  and  this,  like 
all  other  questions  of  expediency,  must  be  decided,  in  some  degree,  by  its  probable 
effect  on  the  object  we  ought  all  to  have  in  view,  the  adoption  of  a  Constitution  that 
will  be  acceptable  to  a  majority  of  the  people. 

I  lamented.  Sir,  that  I  could  not  follow  the  gentleman  from  Accomack,  (Mr.  Joynes) 
through  the  statistical  details  vv^ith  which  he  yesterday  favoured  the  Committee.  The 
late  period  at  which  he  rose,  rendered  me  utterly  incapable  of  giving  to  his  statements, 
the  attention  they  no  doubt  deserved.  I  heard  enough,  however,  to  satisfy  me,  that 
while  he  had  done  less  than  justice  to  that  portion  of  the  Western  country  denomi- 
nated the  Valley,  in  charging  it  with  paying  into  the  public  Treasury,  less  than  it  re- 
ceived from  it,  he  had  measured  out  rather  more  than  justice  to  his  own  section  of  the 
State,  by  exhibiting  it  in  connection  witli  the  fertile  and  heavily  taxed  country  imme- 
diately under  the  mountain.  I  learn,  indeed,  from  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  that 
if  the  cities  of  Norfolk  and  Richmond  be  excluded  from  the  Eastern  division  of  the 
State,  it  is  very  doubtful,  whether  it  may  not  be  found  in  the  very  predicament  pre- 
scribed by  the  gentleman  from  Accomack,  to  the  whole  Western  country. 

I  cannot  concur  with  these  gentlemen.  Sir,  who  would  resolve  all  our  actions  into 
base  and  sordid  interest;  though  it  were  useless  to  complain  of  the  remarks  of  the  gen- 
tleman from  Chesterfield,  in  relation  to  the  district  I  represent;  as  in  denying  to  us, 
any  other  motive  of  action,  than  our  own  peculiar  interest,  he  has  only  placed  us  by 
the  side  of  himself.  But  I  do  trust,  Sir,  that  in  spite  of  the  growing  corruption  of  the 
times,  he  has  so  eloquently  and  so  justly  described,  there  is  yet  in  this  body  at  least, 
enough  of  public  spirit,  to  induce  us  to  look  to  the  great  interest  of  the  Common- 
wealth, uninfluenced  by  either  personal  or  sectional  considerations.  If  there  be  not, 
the  sooner  we  adjourn  the  better.  Let  us  go  back  to  our  constituents,  and  tell  them 
honestly  and  candidly,  that  we  are  not  the  men  they  had  supposed  us,  and  that  we  are 
in  truth,  as  unfit  to  give,  as  they  to  receive  a  Republican  Government. 

I  have  submitted  these  remarks  for  no  other  purpose,  Mr.  Chairman,  than  to  explain 
both  here  and  elsewhere,  the  course  I  am  about  to  pursue.  It  would  be  folly  in  me 
to  hope,  that  the  Government  about  to  be  formed,  will  be  based  exclusively  on  the 
principle  I  have  advocated ;  and  I  should  hold  myself  unfit  for  the  station  with  which 
I  have  been  honoured,  if  I  did  not  feel  myself  at  all  times  prepared  to  make  every  rea- 
sonable concession,  to  insure  either  harmony  here  or  tranquillity  abroad. 

The  Chair  having  twice  enquired,  whether  the  Committee  were  ready  for  the  ques- 
tion, it  was  about  to  be  put,  when, 

Mr.  Taylor  of  Norfolk,  rose,  and  said  that  he  had  not  had  the  slightest  suspicion 
that  the  question  would  be  taken  at  this  time  ;  but  as  it  seemed  that  no  gentleman  in- 
tended to  address  the  Committee,  he  would  move  that  the  Committee  do  now  rise, 
and  he  owed  it  to  himself  to  explain  why  he  made  such  a  motion. 

I  received,  said  Mr.  T.  the  honor  of  a  seat  here,  with  a  distinct  knowledge,  on  the 
part  of  my  constituents,  of  the  sentiments  I  held  in  regard  to  the  reforms  contem- 
plated in  the  Government  of  the  State.    I  had  given  to  them  no  pledges,  express  or 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVEN'TION. 


223 


implied.  I  had  made  a  distinct  avowal  of  my  opinions  in  respect  to  most  of  the  mat- 
ters in  controYersy,  and  an  open  promulgation  of  them,  on  the  last  day  of  the  elec- 
tion. On  the  immediate  subject  novr  before  us.  I  had  formed  no  definite  opinion  :  nor 
had  any  such  opinion  been  formed,  or  expressed,,  by  the  people  of  my  district.  If 
there  had.  I  was  ignorant  of  it. 

The  opinions  I^hold  with  regard  to  this  resolution,  hare  already  been  indicated  to 
this  bodr,  by  the  resolutions  I  had  the  honor  to  submit  to  it,  some  days  since  :  which 
resolutions  'were  considered  in  part,  and  now  sleep  on  your  table.  When  I  offered 
them,  I  did  believe,  and  I  do  still  believe,  that  the  amendment  is  inconsistent  ^\-ith  our 
free  institutions,  that  it  is  hostile  in  its  principle,  to  equal  rights  among  quahfied  voters, 
and  tends  directly,  in  its  practical  effect  to  introduce  an  oligarchy,  tatal  to  the  conti- 
nuance of  free  Government.  If  the  present  amendment  had  been  rejected,  it  was 
my  purpose  to  have  moved  another,  the  object  of  which  would  have  been  to  strike 
out  the  words  ''ichite  population.^  and  to  insert  in  lieu  thereof  -"nualified  voters,  without 
regard  to  disparity  of  fortune  and  I  meant  to  do  this,  not  only  because  I  considered 
it  more  philosophical  to  commence  with  presenting  principles,  rather  than  facts  ;  but 
also,  because  I  considered  it  important  not  only  to  myself,  but  to  the  friends  who  agree 
with  me  in  opinion,  and  to  the  interests  of  the  whole  State,  that  the  public  should 
understand  the  subjects  which  are  in  discussion  here,  that  they  should  understand, 
that  this  Convention  is  debating  whether  a  majority  of  the  qualified  voters  of  the 
State,  shall  have  the  control  of  the  State,  or  whether  a  minority  shall  possess  that 
control  on  account  of  their  superior  wealth.  I  am  willing  to  stand  or  fall  on  this 
question,  when  it  shall  be  rightly  understood  by  the  people. 

I  do  not  now  intend  to  enter  into  the  debate.  Peculiar  circumstances  render  it  im- 
proper for  me  to  do  so  at  present,  and  it  is  in  reference  to  these  circumstances  that  I 
am  induced  to  ask  the  Committee  to  rise. 

I  ha^-e  learned,  recently,  that  although  no  opinion  had  existed  among  my  consti- 
tuents when  I  came  here,  on  the  subject  of  the  amendment,  there  does  now  exist 
among  them  a  very  decided  opinion  on  that  subject,  insomuch  that  I  have  received  di- 
rect instructions  as  to  the  course  they  wish  me  to  pursue.  I  have  some  reason  to  beUeve 
that  a  vast  majority  of  my  people  (I  call  them  so,  as  they  have  honored  me  with  an 
appointment  to  this  body,)  concur  in  the  sentiment  expressed  in  these  instructions. 
It  has  been  the  sentiment  of  my  life,  that  representation  is  only  the  means  by  which 
the  opinions  of  the  constituent  body  are  to  be  expressed  and  effectuated.  No  act  of 
mine  shall  ever  impair  that  principle.  But,  Sir,  there  are  limits  to  obedience.  Had 
my  constituents  instructed  me  in  some  matter  of  expediency,  or  asked  me  to  do  what 
was  possible  to  me,  I  should  have  taken  pleasure  in  showing  with  what  cheerful  sub- 
mission I  would  o'ive  effect  to  their  opinions  rather  than  my  own.  But  they  ask  what 
is  impossible.  To  obey  them  I  must  violate  my  conscience,  and  the  sacred  obhgation 
I  owe  to  my  country.  I  must  do  that  which  would  dishonor  me  as  a  man  and  cover 
me  with  shame  as  a  patriot.  I  cannot  do  it  without  being  guilty  of  moral  treason  to 
the  free  institutions  of  my  country.  If  I  fail,  I  will  meet  the  blow  with  dignity  and 
firmness,  and  I  shall  only  regret  that  the  victim  is  not  more  worthy  of  the  God.  But, 
Sir,  a  man  of  integrity  knows  how  to  reconcile  all  his  duties  :  and  I  am  constiained 
to  ask  a  postponement  of  tliis  question,  because  it  is  my  fixed  purpose  not  to  ofive  a 
vote  upon  it.  but  to  resign  my  sent  in  this  body.  I  have  had  a  communication  with  the 
member  first  chosen  in  tiie  delegation  from  Norfolk,  and  I  have  asked  him  to  consult 
with  his  colleagues  as  to  the  selection  of  some  other  person  who  may  be  more  fortu- 
nate than  I  am,  and  agree  in  sentiment  with  my  constituents,  and  to  do  so  with  as 
much  expedition  as  propriety  will  allow,  in  order  that  they  may  not  remain  unrepre- 
sented on  this  question.  He  informed  me  that  there  was  no  need  of  acting  yesterday, 
as  there  was  no  probability  whatever  that  the  question  would  be  taken  for  some 
days  to  come.  Under  these  circumstances,  I  throw  myself  on  the  generosity  of  tliis 
body,  that  I  may  not  be  compelled  to  act  against  either  my  own  conscience  or  the 
will  of  my  constituents,  and  that  time  may  be  given  for  the  selection  of  another  dele- 
gate in  my  room.  I  shall,  therefore,  move  that  the  Committee  rise,  hoping  that  before 
it  is  again  called  to  deliberate,  some  gentleman  may  occupy  my  seat,  who  shall  be 
more  fortunate  than  myself,  in  harmony  of  opinion,  though  none  can  be  more  devoted 
to  what  I  conceive  to  be  the  best  interests  of  my  constituents. 

Before  I  take  my  seat.  I  hope  it  will  not  be  deemed  criminal  in  me,  to  profess  that 
I  brought  to  this  House  the  sentiments  so  well  expressed  by  the  gentleman  firom 
Northampton.  (^Nlr.  Upshur.)  I  came  here,  Sir,  as  a  Virginian  ;  prepared  to  promote 
the  interest  of  Virginia  :  fully  believing  that  the  petty  and  temporary  interests  of  my 
district  are  as  nothinor,  in  comparison  to  the  interest  it  has,  in  the  general  prosperity 
of  tile  State. 

Permit  me,  Sir,  to  state  the  comparative  effect  wliich  will  be  produced  in  my  Dis- 
trict, by  the  adoption  of  the  resolution  and  of  the  amendment ;  in  other  words,  by  the 
white,  and  by  the  compound  basis  of  representation.  My  District  consists  of  the 
counties  of  Norfolk,  Princess  Anne,  Nansemond,  and  the  Borough  of  Norfolk.  In 


224 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


the  county  of  Norfolk,  (I  state  from  memory,)  the  white  population  is  about 
9,000:  In  Princess  Anne,  5,400;  in  Nansemond,  more  than  5,000;  and  in  Norfolk 
Borough,  4,600.  Now,  if  the  resolution  reported  by  the  Committee  shall  prevail,  and 
the  lohite  basis  be  adopted,  what  will  be  the  result?  Go  by  numbers,  and  the  county 
of  Norfolk  having  twice  the  population  of  the  Borough,  will  be  entitled  to  twice  the 
number  of  representatives.  Princess  Anne  will  have  its  representation  in  proportion 
to  that  of  Norfolk  1  and  16 — 100  to  1.  Nansemond  also  will  have  a  larger  represen- 
tation than  Norfolk  Borough.  I  speak  now  of  qualified  voters ;  and  I  refer  to  the 
Census,  only  as  a  mean  of  ascertaining  them.  But,  should  the  amendment  prevail, 
and  the  mixed  basis  of  population  and  taxation  be  adopted,  see  what  will  be  the  result : 
$  10,280  are  paid  in  taxes  by  Norfolk  Borough.  Add  its  population,  and  the  com- 
pound ratio  for  that  Borough,  will  be  within  a  fraction  of  15,000.  In  the  county  of 
Norfolk,  the  taxes  amount  to  $  5,528  :  Add  the  9,000  people,  and  the  sum  is  less  than 
15,000.  So  that  the  whole  county,  with  a  double  population,  will  have  a  less  repre- 
sentation than  the  Borough.  The  county  of  Princess  Anne,  which  pays  $  2,716  in 
taxes,  will,  on  the  same  plan,  be  surpassed  by  the  Borough  of  Norfolk,  in  the  propor- 
tion of  1  and  17 — 100  to  1.  And,  in  like  manner,  the  county  of  Nansemond  will  be 
surpassed,  in  the  proportion  of  1  and  94 — 100  to  1.  Thus,  with  greater  population, 
each  of  these  counties  will  have  less  representation  than  the  Norfolk  Borough. 

Mr.  Taylor  concluded,  by  renewing  his  request,  that  the  question  might  be  post- 
poned, and  that  the  Committee  would  rise.  He  did  not  feel  at  liberty  to  enter  upon 
its  discussion  ;  but  he  afterwards  consented  to  withdraw  the  motion  at  the  request  of 

Mr.  Moore  of  Rockbridge,  who  then  took  the  floor  in  support  of  the  resolution,  and 
spoke  as  follows  : 

Mr.  Chairman :  It  was  my  intention,  until  very  recently,  not  to  have  troubled  the 
Committee  with  any  remarks  upon  the  proposition  now  under  consideration.  I  had 
supposed,  that  long  before  we  assembled  in  this  Hall,  the  opinion  of  every  member  of 
this  Convention,  would  have  been  unchangeably  fixed,  upon  this  question  at  least,  if 
upon  no  other ;  and  that  consequently,  every  argument  which  might  be  adduced  on 
either  side,  would  be  entirely  thrown  away.  1  find,  however,  from  the  great  zeal 
which  has  been  manifested  by  gentlemen  who  have  advocated  the  opposite  side  of 
the  question  from  that  which  I  intend  to  espouse,  that  they  do  not  altogether  despair 
of  making  converts  to  their  cause. 

Confident,  as  I  am,  that  in  asking  that  the  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates, 
shall  be  based  upon  white  population  exclusively,  I  am  asking  nothing  more  than  that 
which  is  right  in  itself ;  and  unwilling  I  hat  it  should  be  supposed  for  a  moment,  that 
I,  or  those  whom  I  represent  in  this  Convention,  are  demanding  any  thing  more  than 
justice  at  your  hands,  I  beg  leave  now  to  present  to  the  Committee,  my  views  upon 
this  highly  important  subject.  I  claim.  Sir,  for  myself,  and  for  my  constituents,  to  be 
actuated  by  higher  considerations,  and  more  honorable  motives,  than  those  of  mere 
sordid  interest,  in  the  course  we  are  pursuing  in  relation  to  this  matter.  And  I  call 
upon  those  gentlemen  who  pay  so  poor  a  compliment  to  themselves  and  to  their  fel- 
low-men, as  to  assert  that  interest  is  the  great,  if  not  the  sole  motive  of  liuman  ac- 
tion, to  turn  their  attention  to  the  Senatorial  District  from  which  I  come,  and  to  in- 
quire, what  is  the  relative  proportion  of  white  and  black  population  there,  to  what  it 
is  in  other  parts  of  the  State;  and  what  has  been  the  relative  increase  of  the  whites 
and  the  blacks  ;  to  ascertain  what  is  the  nature  of  our  soil  and  products ;  what  is  the 
extent  of  our  property  of  every  description  ;  and  if  they  please,  what  taxes  we  pay, 
in  proportion  to  other  portions  of  this  Commonwealth ;  and  then  to  say,  whether  or 
not,  we  can  reasonably  expect,  to  gain  any  permanent  advantage  from  the  adoption  of 
the  basis  for  which  I  contend,  in  preference  to  that  which  they  propose.  The  gen- 
tleman from  Accomack,  it  is  true,  has  endeavoured  to  shew,  that  the  people  of  the 
Valley  have  very  little  interest  in  common  with  the  people  on  this  side  of  the  Blue 
Ridge  of  mountains ;  and  has  made  a  calculation,  by  which  he  endeavours  to  prove, 
that  the  former  will  always  find  it  to  their  interest,  to  impose  taxes  upon  slaves,  in 
preference  to  lands.  He  assumes,  that  in  all  the  counties  in  which  the  slaves  do  not 
bear  a  proportion  of  38  per  cent,  to  the  whole  population,  the  people  will  find  it  to 
their  interest,  to  throw  as  much  as  possible  of  the  burthens  of  taxation,  on  that  spe- 
cies of  property.  Perhaps,  if  the  gentleman  could  have  shewn,  that  the  pro]  ortion 
of  voters  in  the  Valley  counties  who  hold  slaves,  to  those  who  hold  none,  was  less 
than  38  per  cent,  there  might  have  been  some  force  in  the  argument  which  he  ad- 
vanced.  But  the  proportion  of  persons  in  those  counties  entitled  to  vote,  who  hold 
slaves,  to  those  who  hold  none,  being  something  like  two  to  one,  it  is  apparent  from: 
his  own  reasoning,  and  upon  his  own  principles,  that  they  cannot  be  interested  in 
taxing  slaves,  in  preference  to  other  property.  And  that  a  majority  of  those  at  least, 
who  have  the  power  in  their  hands,  have  a  common  interest  with  the  Eastern  people, 
in  protecting  slave  property  from  unjust  taxation. 

It  is  said.  Sir,  that  all  comparisons  are  odious ;  and  I  confess,  that  none  are  more  so 
to  me,  than  those  which  have  been  made  in  this  Committee,  upon  the  subject  of  taxa- 


DEBATES   OF   THII  CONYENTION. 


225 


tion.  Not  because  the  result  of  these  comparisons  will  be  to  the  disadvantage  of  my 
own  particular  District,  (for  I  think  I  can  demonstrate  to  the  satisfaction  of  the  Com- 
mittee, that  we  pay  a  full  proportion  of  all  the  taxes  paid  in  the  State  :)  but  because 
they  are  calculated  to  engender  the  most  unkind  feelings,  between  the  good  people 
of  this  Commonwealth.  1  did  not  like  the  manner  in  which  the  gentleman  from  Ac- 
comack was  pleased  to  divide  the  State,  by  the  Blue  Ridge,  and  then  endeavoured  to 
prove,  by  shewing  that  we  (the  Western  people)  drew  more  money  out,  than  we  paid 
into  the  Treasury,  that  we  were  all  a  set  of  paupers,  dependent  on  the  charity  of  the 
East.  I  do  not  choose,  that  we,  who  pay  our  full  proportion  of  the  taxes,  shall  be 
classed  with  those  who  pay  less  than  their  proportion,  in  order  to  make  us  all  out  pau- 
pers. According  to  this  mode  of  proceeding,  I  can  prove  his  oion  constituents  to  be 
nothing  but  a  set  of  paupers  ;  for  if  he  will  add  his  District,  to  the  whole  country 
West  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  he  will  find,  that  all  taken  together,  we  do  not  pay  as  much 
into  the  Treasury  as  we  draw  out  of  it.  And  after  all,  there  is  nothing  so  very  dis- 
creditable in  a  county  or  district  of  country,  paying  less  money  into  the  Treasury 
than  it  draws  out  of  it ;  for  if  you  divide  the  State  into  two  parts,  containing  equal 
numbers  of  people,  by  any  line  yon  please  to  run,  unless  tbey  draw  out  of  the  Trea- 
sury in  exact  proportion  to  what  they  pay  into  it,  one  division  or  the  other,  will  draw 
out  more  money  than  it  puts  into  it ;  and  according  to  the  gentleman's  mode  of  rea- 
soning, all  the  people  of  that  division  must  be  considered  as  dependent  upon  the  cha- 
rity of  those  of  the  other  division.  I  had  always  supposed  that  the  people  of  every 
portion  of  this  Commonwealth,  contributed  to  the  support  of  Government,  both  in 
personal  services,  and  in  money,  in  proportion  to  their  ability  to  contribute,  and  that 
this  was  all  that  could  reasonably  be  demanded  of  them.  I  am  not  willing  to  give  to 
those  who  pay  more  money  than  we  do,  a  greater  representation  than  we  have  ;  nor 
will  I  ask  of  those  who  pay  lef;s,  to  be  satisfied  with  a  smaller  one.  1  have  ever  be- 
lieved, that  when  a  man,  however  poor  he  maybe,  has  paid  as  much  money  into  the 
Treasury  as  he  is  able  to  pay,  that  nothing  more  can  be  required  at  his  hands  ;  and 
that  his  having  done  so,  ought,  like  the  Vv^idow's  mite,  to  entitle  him,  to  equal  privi- 
leges, with  those,  who  are  enabled,  out  of  the  abundance  of  their  wealth,  to  pay  a 
much  larger  sum. 

Permit  me  now,  Sir,  to  call  the  attention  of  the  Committee  once  more,  to  the  de- 
clarations contained  in  our  Bill  of  Rights,  about  which  there  appears  to  be  so  great  a 
diversity  of  opinions.  It  is  not  my  intention  to  follow  those  who  have  preceded  me  in 
this  debate,  over  all  the  ground  which  they  have  occupied  in  discussing  the  principles 
asserted  by  these  declarations  ;  my  only  purpose  will  be,  to  explain  to  the  Committee, 
what  has  been  m}'-  understanding  of  these  declarations,  so  solemnly  made  by  our  an- 
cestors. I  have  been  in  the  constant  habit,  from  my  earliest  infancy  to  the  present 
moment,  of  regarding  the  whole  Bill  of  Rights  as  a  sacred  instrument,  in  which  the 
onl}'-  true  principles  upon  which  Republican  Governments  can  be  founded,  had  been 
proclaimed  to  the  world.  And  I  trust.  Sir,  I  shall  be  pardoned,  (for  I  assure  you  I 
mean  no  offence  to  any  man.)  when  1  say,  that  although  I  did  believe  that  individuals 
might  be  found  in  foreign  countries,  who  (misled  by  the  prejudices  of  education,  or 
blinded  by  interest,)  might  be  disposed  to  question  their  authenticity;  yet  I  did  not 
believe,  that  in  this  boasted  land  of  liberal  principles,  one  man  could  be  found,  who 
would  refuse  to  acknowledge  them  as  the  foundation,  upon  which  the  whole  super- 
structure of  Government  should  rest.  Entertaining  such  sentiments  as  these,  it  has 
been,  as  you  may  well  imagine,  Mr.  Chairman,  with  extreme  pain,  that  I  have  lis- 
tened to  the  very  able  and  ingenious  arguments  of  gentlemen,  which  to  my  apprehen- 
sion, are  but  too  well  calculated  to  sap  the  very  foundations  of  this,  and  every  other 
Republican  Government. 

The  first  section  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  asserts,  "  that  all  men  are  by  nature  equally 
free  and  independent,"  &c.  Now,  Sir,  is  there  any  man  here  who  doubts  that  all 
men  are  "  by  nature  eajaally  free  and  independent.''"  I  presume  there  is  not  one  in- 
dividual in  all  this  A..^*embly,  who  is  prepared  to  express  a  doubt  upon  the  subject. 
But,  say  gentlemen,  our  ancestors  did  not  mean  to  assert  that  all  men  are  in  the  ac- 
tual enjoyment  of  equal  rights  and  privileges ;  they  only  meant  that  by  nature,  they 
are  entitled  to  equal  rights  and  privileges ;.  and  in  this  opinion  I  entirely  concur  with 
them.  But  when  gentlemen  undertake  to  pronounce  this  to  be  a  mere  abstract  prin- 
ciple, which  can  never  bo  applied  to  the  actual  condition  of  men,  I  differ  with  them 
toto  cfBfo.  And  I  hesitate  not  to  affirm,  that  it  is  a  principle  which  not  only  cent  be, 
but  which  must  be  acted  upon  by  all  men,  whatever  their  condition  in  life  may  have 
been;  whether  they  have  been  in  the  enjoyment  of  their  natural  rights,  or  held  in 
the  most  degraded  state  of  slavery,  whenever  they  are  about  to  form  a  Constitution ; 
otherwise,  the  Government  which  they  establish,  must  in  the  very  nature  of  things, 
be  nothing  more  or  less  than  a  despotism.  We  have  been  asked,  if  this  be  really  a 
correct  principle,  and  susceptible  of  universal  application,  Avhy  was  it  that  the  slaves 
were  excluded  by  our  ancestors,  and  why  do  we  not  now  propose  to  admit  them  as 
parties  to  the  social  compact  ?    The  answer  to  this  question  is  so  easily  given,  and  is 


226 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


so  obvious,  that  I  am  surprised  it  should  ever  have  been  asked.  The  answer  is,  that 
we  do  not  choose  to  form  or  enter  into  any  such  compact  with  them.  And  is  not  this 
a  sufficient  answer  ? 

We  exclude  tlicm,  for  precisely  the  same  reasons  that  we  would  exclude  foreigners 
of  every  description;  for  the  same  reasons  that  we  would  refuse  to  extend  the  right 
of  citizenship  to  the  inhabitants  of  Texas,  or  of  Canada,  or  to  any  race  of  Indians 
who  might  wish  to  be  acknowledged  as  a  part  of  the  community  to  which  we  belong  : 
namely,  that  we  do  not  choose  to  grant  their  request.  And  we  would  not  choose  to 
grant  such  a  request,  because  we  believe  that  they  would  not  make  good  citizens. 
We  do  not  propose  to  admit  our  slaves  as  parties  to  the  social  compact,  because  we 
believe  that  they  would  not  make  good  citizens,  or  because  we  are  prejudiced  against 
their  colour ;  or  if  you  please,  because  we  think  proper  to  disregard  their  natural 
rights,  and  to  hold  them  in  slavery,  that  we  may  reap  the  benefit  of  their  labour. 
And  it  is  perfectly  immaterial  what  the  reason  for  excluding  them  may  be,  if  it  be 
sufficient  to  induce  us  to  do  so.  By  excluding  foreigners,  however,  or  Indians,  we 
do  not  interfere  with  their  natural  rights ;  but  leave  them  at  liberty  to  form  any  sort 
of  Government  they  please  for  themselves.  The  mistake  is  in  supposing  that  the 
principle,  if  true,  is  one  which  must,  in  its  application,  be  extended,  to  all,  to  whom, 
it  can  be  extended  :  whereas,  it  is  one,  which  may,  or  may  not,  be  extended,  so  as  to 
embrace  any  particular  race  or  class  of  people,  as  may  seem  best  to  those  who  are 
about  to  establish  a  Government :  but  which  must  be  extended  to  all  whom  it  is  in- 
tended, shall  become  parties  to  the  compact,  or  members  of  the  community.  It  is 
evident,  that  such  was  the  understanding  which  our  ancestors  had  of  this  principle, 
and  of  its  application,  at  the  time  when  our  Bill  of  Rights  and  Constitution  were 
established  by  them.  They,  excluded  foreigners  from  the  enjoyment  of  all  the  rights 
and  privileges  of  citizenship  in  this  State,  except  upon  certain  conditions :  they  ex- 
cluded the  Indians  altogether,  and  they  excluded  the  negroes  altogether,  and  the  rea- 
sons for  excluding  the  latter,  were  stronger  than  those  for  excluding  the  former.  All 
those,  however,  vv^lio  were  admitted  as  members  of  the  community,  were  admitted 
upon  terms  of  perfect  equality.  Let  us  suppose  the  agents  of  the  British  Govern- 
ment, with  a  view  to  induce  them  to  return  to  their  allegiance  to  the  British  Crown, 
to  have  addressed  them  in  language  like  this  :  "  You  have  declared,  that  all  men  are 
by  nature  equally  free  and  independent,  and  that  the  majority  of  the  people  have  an 
indubitable  and  unalienable  right,  to  alter,  reform,  or  abolish  Government  at  their 
pleasure;  and  we  have  a  strong  party  amongst  the  white  people  in  this  State,  who 
are  in  favour  of  abolishing  the  Government  which  you  have  established,  which  added 
to  the  whole  number  of  Indians  and  negroes  in  the  State,  (who  are  also  in  our  fa- 
vour,) will  make  a  majority ;  which,  according  to  your  own  principles,  has  a  right  to 
change  the  Government  at  its  pleasure.  We  therefore  demand  that  you  submit  to 
the  will  of  this  majority,  and  give  up  the  power  which  you  are  no  longer  entitled  to 
hold."  What  are  we  to  suppose  would  have  been  their  reply  to  such  a  demand.? 
Would  they  not  have  said,  ''these  Indians  and  negroes  constitute  no  part  of  the 
community  for  whose  advantage  this  Government  was  formed,  and  consequently  have 
no  right  to  express  any  opinion  upon  the  subject;  and  although  we  admit  that  tlieir 
natural  rights  are  equal  to  our  own,  yet  they  not  having  been  permitted  to  become 
parties  to  the  compact  from  which  we  derive  our  authority,  they  can  have  no  voice 
in  changing  or  destroying  it."  And  they  might  well  have  added,  "  these  negroes 
whom  you  see  so  totally  unfitted  by  their  habits,  and  want  of  all  the  moral  virtues,  to 
enjoy  the  blessings  of  liberty  and  of  a  free  Government,  have  no  just  cause  of  com- 
plaint against  any  one  for  placing  them  in  their  present  degraded  condition,  except  it 
is  against  your  own  King,  who  sent  them  amongst  us,  and  compelled  us  to  receive 
them,  contrary  to  our  own  inclinations,  which  is  one  of  the  grievances  complained  of 
in  the  preamble  to  our  Constitution." 

Having  expressed  my  belief  that  our  slaves  are  by  nature  ewnally  as  free  and  inde- 
pendent as  ourselves,  or  in  other  words,  that  they  are  by  nature,  entitled  to  equal 
rights  and  privileges,  it  may  not  be  improper,  that  I  should  make  one  or  two  remarks, 
which  though  they  have  no  immediate  bearing  upon  the  question  before  us,  may 
serve  to  prevent  any  misapprehension  of  my  sentiments  upon  a  subject  of  such  vital 
importance  to  this  State  as  that  of  slavery.  I  give  it  then,  as  my  deliberate  opinion, 
that  although  our  slaves  are  by  nature,  entitled  to  equal  rights  with  the  rest  of  the 
human  race,  and  although  it  would  be  both  our  interest  and  our  duty  to  send  them 
out  from  amongst  us,  if  any  practicable  scheme  could  be  suggested  for  effecting  that 
object ;  that  yet,  all  questions  as  to  their  rights,  are  questions  between  them  and  our 
selves  exclusively.  It  is  moreover  my  opinion,  that  if  the  necessity  of  the  case  does 
not  furnish  a  sufficient  excuse  for  our  retaining  them  in  servitude,  (as  I  hope  it  does,) 
that  we  are  answerable  for  our  injustice  towards  them,  only  to  our  own  consciences, 
and  to  the  Great  God  of  all :  and  that  no  foreign  people  or  power,  have  a  right  in 
any  manner,  under  any  circumstances,  or  under  any  pretence,  to  interfere  between 
them  and  us.    And  so  far  do  I  carry  my  ideas  of  exclusive  right,  upon  this  subject, 


DEBATES    OF    THE  CONVENTION. 


227 


that  if  the  majority  of  the  people  of  Virginia,  or  of  their  representatives,  were  to  de- 
termine to  reduce  all  the  free  negroes  amongst  us  to  a  state  of  slavery,  although  the 
proposition  in  itself  would  be  most  abhorrent  to  my  feelings  ;  yet  I  should  regard  my- 
self as  a  traitor  to  my  country,  if  I  did  not  resist  by  all  the  means  in  my  power,  any 
attempt  which  might  be  made,  on  the  part  of  any  other  people,  to  interfere. 

We  have  been  asked,  why  it  is  we  exclude  the  women  from  all  participation  in  the 
formation  of  Government,  if  it  be  true  that  all  the  human  race  possess  equal  natu- 
ral rights  ?  I  answer,  that  it  is  not  because  we  deny  to  these  an  equality  cf  natural 
rights,  or  because  they  are  inferior  in  intelhgence,  morality,  or  virtue,  to  ourselves  : 
for  1  will  be  as  ready  to  admit  as  any  gentleman  on  the  opposite  side  of  the  question, 
that  in  all  these  particulars  they  are" our  equals  at  least,  and  in  most  of  them,  our  su- 
periors. And  I  was  not  a  little  surprised  the  other  day  that  the  gentleman  from 
Orange,  should  have  thought  it  necessary  to  go  into  a  historical  argument,  to  prove 
what  no  one  here  was  disposed  to  dispute  in  relation  to  their  capacity  for  conducting 
the  affairs  of  Government. 

It  will  be  a  sutficient  answer  to  tliis  question,  to  say,  that  the  women  have  never 
claimed  the  right  to  participate  in  the  formation  of  the  Government,  and  that  until 
they  do,  there  can  be  no  necessity  for  our  discussing  or  deciding  upon  it :  more  espe- 
ciallj^  as  no  one  believes  that  any  such  claim  will  ever  be  insisted  upon  by  them. 
There  surely  can  be  no  reason  why  we  should  attempt  to  impose  upon  them,  burthens 
which  they  are  unwilling  to  bear.  If  I  were  to  attempt  to  assign  the  reason  why 
they  do  not  make  any  such  demand,  I  would  say  that  it  is  because  their  interests  are 
so  completely  identified  with  our  own,  that  it  is  impossible  that  we  can  make  any  re- 
gulation injuriously  affecting  their  rights,  which  will  not  equally  injure  ourselves. 
And  because  they  have  such  unlimited  confidence  in  our  sex,  that  they  cannot  sus- 
pect us  of  any  disposition  to  act  unjustly  towards  them.  A  confidence  which  I  hope 
is  by  no  means  misplaced,  unless  gentlemen  on  the  other  side  of  this  question,  are 
disposed  to  impose  some  unjust  restrictions  upon  them,  of  which  I  am  sure  I  am  very 
far  from  suspecting  any  member  of  tliis  body. 

We  have  been  called  upon  to  assign  a  reason  why  infants  under  the  a^  e  of  twenty- 
one  years,  should  be  excluded  from  a  share  in  the  formation  of  the  Government,  if 
the  principles  for  which  I  have  been  contending  are  correct.^  I  answer,  that  it  will 
be  time  enough  to  assign  the  reasons  for  it,  when  they  claim  the  right  ;  and  as  it  is 
very  certain  they  do  not  intend  to  make  the  demand  at  present,  we  need  not  waste 
our  time  in  making  unprofitable  enquiries,  into  the  extent  or  nature  of  their  rights. 
The  question  asked  by  tlie  gentleman  from  Orange,  (Mr.  Barbour)  as  to  our  right  to 
exclude  the  free  negroes  from  the  rights  of  citizenship,  is  sufficiently  answered  by 
saying,  that  we  choose  to  exclude  them  for  reasons  which  must  be  obvious  to  him, 
and  therefore  need  not  be  assig-ned. 

There  has  been  one  other  question  asked,  which  deserves  o^xr  most  serious  considera- 
tion. It  is  this  :  What  right  have  we.  if  the  principles  asserted  by  the  Bill  of  Rights  are 
correct,  to  exclude  paupers  from  takincr  any  part  in  the  formation  or  amendment 
of  the  Constitution.'  It  is  important  in~the  consideration  of  this  question,  to  know 
precisely  what  is  meant  by  the  term  paupers.  If  this  term  is  intended  to  embrace  all 
the  non-freeholders,  as  I  presume  it  is,  (for  it  is  on  account  of  their  poverty,  and  the 
want  of  common  interest  with  and  attachment  to  the  communitv,  which  is  supposed  to 
be  consequent  upon  their  state  of  poverty,  that  they  are  excluded.)  there  can  be  no 
difficultv  in  making  a  suitable  reply  to  the  question.  The  reply  wliich  I  am  disposed 
to  make,  is  this  :  These  paupers  or  non-freeholders,  being  admitted  to  belong  to  the 
community,  and  acknowledged  as  parties  to  the  compact  of  Government,  and  they 
having  demanded  permission  to  exercise  their  rights,  as  they  have  done,  in  language 
not  to  be  misunderstood,  or  disregarded  ;  we  have  no  right  to  exclude  them  from  a 
share  in  the  alteration  of  the  old  or  the  formation  of  a  new  Constitution.  And.  Sir, 
if  I  am  not  deceived  by  the  language  of  their  memorials  now  upon  your  table,  they 
are  determined  not  to  be  prevented  from  exercising  their  rights.  When  we  come  to 
consider  the  question,  of  who  shall  be  permitted  to  vote  in  favor  of  the  adoption  or 
rejection  of  the  new  or  amended  Constitution.  I  may  perhaps  endeavor  to  satisfy  the 
Committee,  that  everv  free  white  man  above  tlie  age  of  twenty-one  years,  will  be 
entitled  to  vote  upon  that  question,  inasmuch,  as  the  people  will  "then  be  engaged,  in 
the  actual  exercise  of  those  equal  rights,  secured  to  them  by  our  Bill  of  Rights  :  And 
to  draw  the  distinction  between  these  natural  rights,  and  the  right  of  suffrage,  which 
is  a  mere  conventional  right,  and  can  only  be  claimed  or  exercised,  by  those  on  whom 
it  has  been  conferred  by  the  majority  which  created  the  Constitution.  For  the  pre- 
sent, it  is  enough  for  me  to  deny  our  right  to  exclude  them  from  voting,  for  or  against 
the  new  Constitution. 

The  second  section  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  asserts  :  Tliat  all  power  is  vested  in,  and 
consequenth'  derived  from,  the  people,  &c.  To  this  proposition  I  understand  no  ob- 
jection has  been  made.  I  shall  therefore  pass  on  to  the  third  section,  which  asserts  : 
That  Government  is,  or  ought  to  be,  &c.  (here  the  third  section  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  was 


228 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONYENTION. 


read.)  And  it  has  been  in  discussing  triis  proposition,  that  most  of  the  questions  I 
have  endeavored  to  answer,  have  been  propounded  :  but  which  I  have  thought  had 
more  immediate  relation  to  the  first  principle  asserted  by  the  Bill  of  Rights. 

A  question  has  been  raised,  whether  the  right  of  the  majority  to  govern  which  is 
here  asserted,  is  a  natural  or  conventional  right ;  and  we  have  been  called  upon  to 
prove  that  it  is  a  natural  right.  For  my  own  part,  I  conceive  it  to  be  wholly  imma- 
terial, as  to  the  effect  it  is  to  have  upon  the  decision  of  the  question  now  before  us, 
whether  it  is  considered  as  a  natural,  or  as  a  conventional  right.  If  it  be  not  a  na- 
tural right,  its  existence  must  at  least  be  acknowledged,  before  the  social  compact 
can  be  formed.  For  unquestionably,  it  is  essential  for  any  body  of  men,  who  may  be 
about  to  form  a  Constitution,  to  determine  in  the  first  place  how  the  questions  which 
may  arise  shall  be  determined.  It  would  perhaps  be  impossible  for  me  to  furnish  a 
better  illustration  of  my  views  upon  this  subject,  than  that  which  is  afforded  by  a  re- 
ference to  the_ course  which  has  been  pursued  by  the  Convention  itself.  When  we 
assembled  in  this  Hall  as  the  representatives  of  the  people,  we  met  upon  terms  of 
perfect  equality,  notwithstanding  the  great  inequality  which  must  exist  among  so 
many  individuals,  both  as  to  intellectual  qualifications,  and  to  physical  power.  A 
motion  was  made  to  appoint  a  President,  and  the  venerable  gentleman  from  Loudoun 
was  put  in  nomination  by  the  venerable  gentleman  from  Orange.  It  being  under- 
stood that  a  majority  of  the  members  were  in  favor  of  the  election  of  the  gentleman 
from  Loudoun,  he  took  his  seat  as  President.  And  if  another  person  had  been  put  in 
nomination,  and  had  received  less  thun  the  majority,  and  the  member  from  Loudoun 
had  obtained  but  a  majority  of  one  vote,  still  he  would  have  been  entitled  to  take  his 
seat  as  President :  and  any  man  v»^ho  would  have  questioned  his  right  to  do  so,  v/ould 
have  been  regarded  as  little  better  than  a  madman. 

We  proceeded  in  the  next  place  to  elect  a  Clerk,  a  Sergeant  at  Arms,  and  two  Door 
Keepers,  and  in  every  case  we  continued  to  ballot,  over  and  over  again,  until  it  was 
ascertained  who  had  the  majority.  Thus  was  the  right  of  the  majority  to  rule,  ac- 
knowledged time  after  time  by  this  Convention,  without  a  single  dissenting  voice : 
and  all  this  took  place  before  we  had  become  organized  as  a  Convention. 

So  soon  as  we  were  organized,  we  again  acknowledged  the  right  of  the  majority  to 
rule,  by  every  vote  which  we  gave  upon  the  adoption  of  the  rules  by  which  our  de- 
liberations are  regulated.  And  the  only  binding  authority  which  those  rules  have 
over  us  at  this  moment,  is  derived  from  the  sanction  given  to  them  by  the  vote  of  the 
majority.  Is  it  then  for  us  to  question  the  right  of  the  majority  to  rule,  after  having 
so  often  acknowledged  it,  in  a  case  exactly  in  point  ?  Surely  it  is  not.  It  would  be 
idle  after  this,  to  go  into  the  enquiry,  as  to  the  origin  of  the  right  of  the  majority  to 
rule.  Nor  need  I  go  into  the  enquiries  suggested  by  the  gentleman  from  Northamp- 
ton, as  to  the  mode  in  which  the  majority  is  to  be  ascertained,  how  the  votes  are  to  be 
given,  or  who  would  appoint  the  tellers.  If  the  majority  be  ascertained,  it  is  imma- 
terial how  it  is  ascertained  ;  and  I  presume  it  would  be  impossible  to  form  any  Gov- 
ernment in  a  country  where  parties  were  so  equally  balanced  as  to  require  a  count 
in  order  to  ascertain  the  majority.  I  do  not  imagine  that  our  ancestors,  when  they 
dissolved  the  old  Government,  and  established  the  existing  Constitution,  waited  to 
take  the  votes,  or  appointed  tellers  for  that  purpose,  before  they  began  to  exercise  the 
powers  incident  to  Government.  It  was  sufficient  for  them  to  know  that  they  were 
the  majority. 

It  is  not  correct  to  suppose,  as  has  been  done  by  some  of  those  who  have  preceded 
me  in  this  debate,  that  the  acknowledgment  of  an  unqualified  right  in  the  majority 
to  govern,  is  incompatible  with  the  existence  of  any  rights  in  the  minority.  The 
minority  still  retain  their  natural  rights  unimpaired  by  the  estabhshment  of  Govern- 
ment ;  but  it  being  impossible  that  two  separate  social  compacts  can  be  formed,  or 
rather,  that  two  independent  communities,  can  exist  in  the  same  country  at  the  same 
time,  the  minority  being  the  weakest  party,  must  either  submit  to  the  will  of  the  ma- 
jority, or  leave  the  country.  Thus  we  see  the  Cherokee  and  Creek  tribes  of  Indians 
compelled  to  leave  the  Southern  States,  and  the  Royalists  flying  from  Mexico  at  this 
very  time,  and  seeking  an  abode  in  countries  where  they  may  enjoy  all  their  rights 
unimpaired. 

The  gentleman  from  Northampton,  speaking  of  the  right  of  the  majority  to  govern, 
says  :  ^'  TJie  very  advocates  of  this  doctrine  abandon  it,  because  they  cannot  but  per- 
ceive, that  it  is  impossible  in  practical  Government,  to  push  it  to  its  fair  results  and 
asks  "  if  free  whites  alone  are  to  give  the  measure  of  political  power,  upon  what  prin- 
ciple is  it,  that  any  one  individual  is  deprived  of  his  share  in  that  power?"  The  gen- 
tleman will  pardon  me  for  saying  that  he  has  done  the  advocates  of  this  principle, 
great  injustice,  and  that  he  and  alfthe  other  gentlemen  who  have  followed  him  upon 
the  same  side  of  the  question,  have  fallen  into  a  very  great  error,  by  attempting  to  ap- 
ply the  principle  or  rule  improperly.  The  rule  is  applicable  when  a  Government  is 
to  be  formed,  but  can  with  no  propriety  be  thought  to  be  apphed  to  mere  convention- 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


229 


al  regulations.  •v\-liich  owe  their  existence  to  the  will  of  the  majority  as  expressed  in 
tlie  Constitution. 

If  ii  is  provided  by  the  Constitution,  that  none  but  persons  possessing  the  freehold 
quahncation,  shall  be  entitled  to  tne  right  of  suiirage,  or  that  a  plurality  of  votes  only 
shall  be  required  to  elect  members  to  tii'e  General  Assembly  ;  or  if  tlie  Legislature,  in 
pursuance  of  authority  derived  from  the  Constitution,  declare  that  there  must  be  una- 
nimity in  jury  trials.  &c:  all  these  things  are  right  and  proper,  because  the  majority 
have  "^willed  th  il  it  shall  be  so.  And  if  the  majority  tlunk  proper  at  any  time,  they 
have  full  power  to  vary  these  regulations  and  to  adopt  others  in  their  stead :  there 
can  be  notuing  discovered  tiien,  incjns.stent  with  the  unhniittd  right  of  the  majority 
to  rule,  in  any  of  these  mere  c  'Uventionai  regulations  which-have  been  so  often,  and 
so  tnumphantl}'  referred  to  during  this  debate. 

The  gentleman  from  ^Northampton  attempts  to  avoid  the  force  and  effect  of  this 
principle,  as  applicable  to  the  question  before  us,  by  asserting  that  "  there  are  in  fact 
no  oricrinal  fundamental  principles  of  Government  ;  that  the  principles  of  Govern- 
ment do  not  apply  to  another  :  and  that  the  same  principles  will  not  apply  in  the  same 
country  at  dlU'erent  times  and  under  different  circumstances."  He  also  asserted,  that 
"  this  principle  (that  the  majority  shall  govern)  does  not  prevail  in  England  or  in  Tur- 
key, and  that  yet  there  are  Governments  in  both  tliese  countries."  I  beg  leave  to 
differ  with  the  gentlrinau  in  every  one  nf  the  positions  he  has  taken.  I  atiirm,  that 
there  are  original  fundamental  principles  of  G-ivermnent,  which  must  and  do  prevail 
in  all  countries,  at  all  times,  and  under  all  circumstances.  And  that  this  very  princi- 
ple of  the  right  of  the  majority  to  govern  has  prevailed  at  all  times,  both  in  England 
and  in  Turkey.  Every  ciiange  which  has  been  effected  in  the  British  Government, 
from  the  days  of  King  Ahred  to  the  present  moment,  has  been  made  with  the  consent 
of  the  majority,  without  which  it  could  not  have  been  effected  at  all.  In  France,  this 
principle  has  been  applied  in  the  last  half  century,  to  change  the  Government  from 
an  absolute  ^Monarchy  to  a  limited  Monarchy  ;  from  a  limited  Monarchy  to  a  Repub- 
hc  ;  from  a  Republic  to  a  Despotism  ;  and  from  a  Despotism  back  again  to  a  limited 
Monarchv.  And  all  the  dreadiul  convulsions  of  that  country,  ffrew  out  of  an  attempt 
of  the  minority  to  resist  the  will  of  the  majority.  The  pov^-er  of  the  majority  over 
the  Government  is  unlimited,  and  they  may,  at  any  time,  convert  the  Goverjmient 
from  a  Mmarchy  into  a  Republic,  or  from  a  Republic  into  a  Monarchy,  at  their  plea- 
sure. In  fine,  the  majority  have  ••  an  indubitable,  unalienable,  and  indefeasible  right 
to  reform,  alter,  or  abolish'"  the  existing  form  of  Government  at  their  pleasure. 

We  have  been  mformed  by  the  genlleaian  last  alluded  to,  that  there  are  two  sorts 
of  majorities,  viz  :  a  majority  of  nuiubers  and  a  mijority  of  interests.  I  confess.  Sir, 
I  do  not  exactly  understand  what  is  meant  by  a  m.ajoritv  of  interests,  any  more  than 
I  should  have  been  able  to  comprehend  his  m'eaning,  if  he  had  talked  to  me  about  a 
majority  of  air.  or  of  religion,  or  any  thing  else,  in  speaking  of  which  he  could 
not,  with  any  propriety,  use  tlie  term  majority.  I  understand  by  the  word  majority, 
as  used  in  the  Bill  of  Rights,  precisely  what  nine  hundred  and  uinety-mne  men  out 
of  a  thousand  throughout  the  United  States  understand  by  it,  that  is.  a  majority  of 
numbers.  And  if  the  gentleman  had  consulted  his  own  constituents  upon  the  subject, 
he  would  have  found  that  the  whole  of  them  understand  it  as  I  do. 

In  order  to  sustain  this  doctrine  of  a  majority  of  interests,  the  gentleman  advanced 
a  proposition,  which  I  shall  endeavor  to  shew  is  utterly  incorrect,  that  is,  that  pro- 
perty is  one  of  the  elements  of  society.  For  the  purpose  of  ascertaining  the  truth  of 
this  proposition,  we  must  look  back  to  the  original  rights  of  men  in  a  state  of  nature. 
Each  man  had  a  right  to  that  which  was  in  his  immediate  possession,  and  to  nothing 
mire,  and  the  moment  he  abandoned  that  possession,  anv  other  individual  could 
ac  yiTi  a  perfect  tide  to  it,  br  s  \z  nj  ml  appropriating  itt  >  his  own  use.  And  the  title 
which  mm  acquires  in  a  state  of  soc:ety  to  property,  owes  its  existence  and  its  vali- 
dity, entirely  to  the  consent,  expressed  or  imphed,  of  the  other  members  of  the  society 
to  which  he  belongs.  For  example,  when  the  Legislature,  acting  under  authority 
derived  from  the  majority,  have  said  that  the  possession  of  a  deed  executed  with  cer- 
tain formalities,  shall  entitle  a  man  to  hold  real  estate,  or  that  the  possession  of  a  bond, 
sh3.ll  give  the  holder  a  right  to  claim  property  in  the  hands  of  anotlier  :  the  validity  of 
these  claims  depends  entirely  up'  n  Legislative  enactment,  and  have  no  foundation 
whatever  in  nature.  And  I  hesitate  not  to  affirm,  that  whenever  individuals  posses- 
sing prs^rty  have  entered  into,  or  become  members  of  any  social  compact,  that  they 
must  have  derived  their  title  to  that  property  from  the  consent  of  some  other  society 
in  wiiich  they  had  lived.  Propertv  then  is  not  an  element  of  society,  it  is  only  one  of 
the  stronjest  indacements  which  men  have,  for  enterincr  into  the  social  compact.  It 
was  said  by  the  learned  gentleman  from  Northampton  that  we  have  no  knowledge  of 
any  people  since  the  period  when  Bible  hist  'ry  commenced,  who  went  into  a  state  of 
society  without  any  property.  I  do  not  pretend  to  be  so  accurately  acquainted  with 
Bible  history  as  that  gentleman,  but  I  am  inclined  to  think,  the  Isra'ehtes  themselves, 
must  have  had  very  little  property  to  begin  with,  after  passing  through  the  wilderness ; 


230 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


and  I  could  name  several  other  nations,  who,  in  the  commencement,  must  have  been 
as  destitute  of  property  as  we  can  conceive  of  men  being. 

Not  being  entirely  satisfied  with  this  new  doctrine  of  a  majority  of  interests,  the 
gentleman  from  JNortliampton,  in  tiie  next  place  endeavored  to  shew  that  tliere  was 
a  large  majority  of  numbers  on  this  side  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  if  we  take  the  slaves  into 
the  estimate.  I  have  already  endeavored  to  prove  that  the  slaves,  not  being  a  part  of 
the  community,  or  belonging  to  the  body  politic,  cannot  be  counted  at  all.  But  if 
they  are  to  be  counted  on  either  side,  (whicli  God  forbid)  what  title  has  he,  to  count 
them  on  his  side?  Is  it  because  tlieir  interests  and  his  are  the  same.''  Surely  not ; 
for  every  interest  they  have  on  earth  is  adverse  to  his,  and  if  counted  at  all,  they  must 
be  counted  against  hun. 

But,  Sir,  there  is  another  very  numerous  and  respectable  class  of  men  in  this  coun- 
try, whose  claiins  have  as  yet  been  but  little  noticed  in  tliis  body,  but  who  have  a 
right  to  be  taken  into  the  estimate  ;  who,  as  1  have  already  stated  are  determined 
boldly  to  assert  their  rights ;  and  who  must  be  counted  upon  one  side  or  the  other. 
I  allude,  Sir,  to  the  non-freeholders.  And  if  it  be  true,  as  has  been  so  often  and  so 
forcibly  remarked,  by  gentlemen  on  the  other  side  of  this  question,  that  interest  is  the 
main  spring  of  human  action,  I  would  ask  what  interest  tkcy  have,  in  common  with 
the  slave-holders 

Does  the  gentleman  expect  them  to  unite  with  him,  because  they  find  the  advo- 
cates of  their  rights  among  those  who  are  m  favor  of  the  mixed  basis If  this  were 
the  fact,  such  an  expectation,  would  not  be  altogether  unreasonable.  But  unless  these 
non-freeholders,  be  both  blind  and  deaf,  they  cannot  be  ignorant  of  the  fact,  that  in 
all  the  struggles  which  have  taken  place  in  the  Legislature,  upon  the  Convention 
question,  it  has  been  by  the  advocates  of  the  white  basis  of  representation  alone,  that 
their  claims  have  been  attended  to,  and  supp  orted  against  the  most  violent  opposition 
on  the  part  of  those  who  are  now  in  favor  of  the  mixed  basis.  Nor  can  they  forget 
by  whom  tljey  have  been  excluded  from  being  represented  m  this  very  Convention. 
The  whole  body  of  non-freeholders  on  this  side  of  the  mountain  then,  together  with 
all  other  non-slave-holders,  must  be  added  to  the  whole  population  on  the  west,  and 
a  large  proportion  of  the  freeholders  immediately  on  this  side  of  the  Blue  Ridge  and 
counted  against  him  :  and  then  let  us  see,  what  sort  of  a  minority  we  have,  attempting 
to  dictate  terms  to  the  majority. 

I  have  thus,  Mr.  Chairman,  endeavored  to  express  to  the  Committee  what  has  been 
my  understanding  of  some  of  the  declarations  contained  in  the  Bill  of  Rights  :  to 
prove  that  the  assertion  contained  in  the  third  section,  that  is,  "that  the  majority  have 
an  indubitable,  unalienable,  and  indefeasible  right,  to  reform,  alter,  or  abolish  it"  (the 
Government)  is  true  ;  and  that  there  is  a  large  majority  of  the  community  ,  who  must 
be  fairly  presumed  to  be  in  favor  of  making  the  white  population  the  basis  of  repre- 
sentation, in  the  General  Assembly. 

I  shall  proceed  in  the  next  place,  to  consider  the  amendment  which  lias  been  pro- 
posed by  the  gentleman  froin  Culpeper,  (Mr.  Green)  to  the  resolution  rep  rtfd  by 
the  Legislative  Comuiittee.  His  proposition  is,  that  representation  in  the  House  of 
Delegates,  shall  be  based  upon  a  combined  ratio  of  white  popu'.a'ion.  and  of  taxation. 
The  first  remark  which  I  shall  make  upon  this  proposition,  is,  that  ]  cannot  perceive 
how  it  will  be  possible,  if  the  aniendment  shall  prevail,  ever  to  apply  the  rule  which 
it  is  intended  to  establish  Do  gentlemen  mean  to  make  the  taxes  now  paid  the 
permanent  basis  of  representation  ?  If  they  do,  they  will  find,  that  in  a  very  short 
time,  owing  to  the  constant  fluctuation  in  property,  and  the  consequent  change  in  the 
relative  proportion  of  taxes  paid,  in  different  sections  of  the  State,  that  the  represen- 
tation will  soon  cease  to  be  just,  even  upon  their  own  principles.  I  cannot  suppose 
that  gentlemen  intend  to  mike  the  law  now  in  force,  imposing  taxes  for  the  support 
of  Government,  a  part  of  the  Constitution  ;  for,  if  they  do,  they  might  as  well  dis- 
pense with  the  Legisl  -tive  bf>dy  altogetiier ;  the  most  important  part  of  its  duty  being 
to  regulate  the  taxes  according  to  the  ability  of  the  people  to  pay,  and  the  necessities 
of  the  Government.  If  the  amendiuent  prevails,  I  do  not  see  how  tlie  Legislature 
are  to  be  prevented  from  imposing  the  taxes  in  such  a  way,  as  to  give  to  one  portion 
of  the  community,  the  whole  amount  of  power  or  representation,  which  it  is  proposed 
-  to  derive  from  the  payment  of  taxes.  For  example,  if  the  slave-holders,  having  the 
majority  in  the  Legislature,  choose  to  take  to  themselves  the  whole  representation 
arising  from  taxation  ;  all  they  have  to  do,  will  be  to  collect  the  whole  revenue  of  the 
Commonwealth  from  a  tax  upon  slaves  But  granting  that  the  rule,  if  adopted,  can 
be  applied,  which  I  think  more  than  doubtful,  let  us  examine  the  principle  wliich  it 
establishes,  and  the  justice  of  applying  it. 

The  principle  is,  that  every  portion  of  the  community  shall  be  represented  in  pro- 
portion to  the  taxes  it  pays  into  the  treasury.  And  those  who  avow  this  principle,  at- 
tempt to  sustain  it  by  saying,  that  taxation  and  representation  must  always  go  toge- 
ther ;  and  by  comparlnr  thy  s  cial  compact  to  a  partner ^Ifip  between  merchants,  or  a 
Bank  association,  in  which  every  member  is  entitled  to  power,  in  proportion  to  the 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONTENTION. 


231 


capital  or  stock  he  furnishes.  In  order  to  test  the  correctness  of  this  principle,  let  us 
see  how  it  will  work,  wiien  applied  to  individuals  ;  and  this  is  the  only  way  in  which 
principles  of  this  sort  can  be  properly  tested  ;  lor  it  is  always  true,  that  a  principle, 
which  cannot  be  justly  enforced  between  ina.viduals  belongmg-  to  the  same  commu- 
nity, can  never  be  justly  enforced  against  the  inhabitants  of  a  particular  district,  who 
constitute  a  part  of  that  community.  If  this  be  a  correct  principle,  then  the  man  who 
owns,  or  pays  taxes  on  two  slaves,  is  entitled  to  twice  as  raucJi  power  as  he  who  owns, 
or  pays  tases  on  Dut  one  ;  and  ha  who  owns  or  pays  taxes  on  a  thousand  slaves,  will 
be  eu'titled  to  five  hundred  times  as  niucii  power,  as  he  who  owns  but  two,  and  one 
thousand  times  as  much  as  he  who  owns  but  one  ;  and  he  who  owns  no  siave,  or  pays 
^  no  taxes,  will  be  entitled  to  no  power  at  all.  Suppose  a  proposition  was  made  at  this 
time  to  act  upon  tliis  principle,  and  give  to  every  man  power  at  tlie  elections  (that  is 
to  say,  a  number  of  votes.)  corresponding  to  the  amount  of  taxes  which  he  pays,  is 
there  anv  man  here  who  would  have  the  hardihood  to  vote  for  it  Surely  there  is 
nut  one."  And  if  such  a  provision  were  engraited  in  the  Constitution,  do  you  believe 
that  the  people  would  submit  to  it.^  Do  you  believe  that  the  non-slave-holders  would 
agree  to  be  deprived  of  all  share  in  the  elections  ;  or  that  those  who  own  but  from  one 
to  twenty,  would  agree  to  see  the  elections  entirely  controuled  by  a  few,  who  own 
from  one  hundred  to  a  thousand  It  is  imp  issible  any  rnan  can  believe  such  a  system 
could  be  enlorced.  And  yet.  Sir,  we  are  gravely  called  upon  to  enforce  tliis  principle 
against  the  people  west  of  the  Alleghany,  wiiich  we  rlure  not  even  propose  to  estab- 
lish amongst  ourselves.  I  say  amcmgst  ourse  zes.  Sir,  because  I  alfirm  it  as  my  be- 
lief, that  tne  people  of  my  district  have  as  much,  or  nearly  as  much  interest  in  this 
question,  as  tne  great  body  of  the  people  on  the  eastern  side  of  the  Blue  Ridge. 
And  I  shall  endeavor,  before  I  take  my  seat,  to  prove  that  we  are  much  more  strongly 
connected  with  the  people  of  this  part  of  the  State,  by  motives  of  interest,  than  the 
people  of  eittier  the  Accomack  or  tiie  Culpeper  districts,  from  whose  representatives 
we  iiave  heard  so  much  on  the  subject  of  imaginary  separate  interests. 

The  true  r-ale  as  to  taxntion,  (and  it  is  one  which  prevails  every  where.)  is,  thai 
every  man  shall  pay  in  proportion  to  his  ability  to  pay,  without  any  sort  of  regard  be- 
ing had  to  the  political  rights  which  he  enjoys.  This  is  the  rule  which  has  constantly 
been  acted  upon  by  the  Legislature  of  Virginia,  in  all  times  past.  I  have  been  as- 
tonished, not  to  say  amazed,  to  hear  gentlemen  complaining  of  the  great  inequality 
betwixt  the  taxes  paid  b  the  people  ot'  the  East,  and  those  paid  by  the  people  of  the 
West;  and  especially  of  the  taxes  paid  upon  slaves  over  and  above  what  is  paid  upon 
any  other  species  of  property,  as  if  these  taxes  were  unjust,  and  had  been  imposed 
upon  them  against  their  own  consent.  And  who  was  it  imposed  these  taxes.''  Was 
it  the  people  west  of  the  Alleghany  mountains  ?  No,  Sir.  they  have  never  had  the 
power  to  impose  them.  Was  it  not  the  Eastern  people  themselves.'  Nay,  more,  was 
it  not  the  slave-holders  themselves  who  imposed  them Unquestionabh'  it  was ;  for, 
as  you  were  very  correctly  told  by  the  gentleman  from  Hanover,  the  slave-holders  are 
the  freeholders  in  this  country.  Was  it  to  please  tlie  people  west  of  the  Alleghany, 
^  that  these  taxes  were  imposed  in  the  manner,  and  on  the  particular  species  of  pro- 
perty on  which  they  were  imposed  ;  No,  Sir,  it  was  to  please  the  people  here  that  it 
was  done.  The  true  reason  why  these  taxes  have  been  imposed  in  the  manner  so 
unjustly  complained  of,  is,  that  the  principle,  that  men  shall  pay  taxes  in  proportion 
to  the  property  they  own,  prevails  in  practice  every  where,  and  is  universally  con- 
sidered among  the  people,  to  be  the  only  correct  principle.  If  any  cfentleman  doubts 
the  correctness  of  this  position,  let  him  propose  to  the  Legislature  to  take  off  the  tax- 
es from  the  shoulders  of  the  wealthy,  and  impose  them  upon  the  poor,  and  see  how 
the  proposition  will  be  received  by  the  people ;  or  let  him  propose  to  take  the  tax  off 
the  negroes,  and  impose  it  on  other  kinds  of  property,  and  see  how  that  proposal  will 
be  received  by  the  non-slave-holders  and  the  holders  of  few  slaves  in  Eastern  Vir- 
ginia. Sir,  I  hesitate  not  to  say,  that  if  the  Legislature  was,  at  its  next  session  to 
^  make  either  of  the  changes  in  the  laws,  which  I  have  suggested,  that  the  people  of 
Eastern  Virginia  would  not  submit  to  it,  and  that  it  would  be  impossible  to  enforce 
the  law;  for  no  man,  who  is  eitlier  poor,  or  in  moderate  circumstances,  will  ever  con- 
sent to  pay  as  much  tax  as  his  neiofhbour,  who  is  worth  an  hundred  times  as  much  as 
himself.  W^hat  is  the  rule  which  prevails  in  this  and  all  other  cities,  in  regard  to  tax- 
ation .-  Is  it  not,  that  every  man  shall  pay  according  to  his  ability  Does  he,  who  is 
the  humble  tenant  of  a  hut  in  the  suburbs  of  the  town,  pav  as  much  towards  the  sup- 
port of  the  corporate  authorities,  and  keeping  up  the  police,  as  the  owner  of  those 
splendid  buildings  which  adorn  and  beautify  the  city  .'  No,  Sir,  and  yet  they  all  meet 
at  the  polls  upon  terms  of  perfect  equality.  And  no  man  could  be  found  fool-hardy 
enough  to  propose,  either  that  all  should  pay  alike,  without  regard  to  property,  or 
that  each  man  should  have  votes  in  proportion  to  the  amount  which  he  pays  into  the 
town  treasury.  Let  us  not  then,  I  again  beseech  vou,  attempt  to  act  upon,  and  en- 
force a  principle,  against  the  people  west  of  the  Alleghany,  which  we  cannot,  and  I 
repeat  it,  which  we  dare  not  attempt  to  enforce  among  ourselves.^    Let  us  give  tliem 


232 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


representation  according  to  their  numbers,  and  tax  them  according  to  their  abihty  to 
pay. 

Upon  the  subject  of  guarantees,  of  which  we  have  heard  so  much  during  this  dis- 
cussion, I  concur  entirely  wiLh  gentl.nien  on  tiie  other  side  of  the  question,  in  the 
opinion,  that  none  can  be  given.  For  my  own  part,  1  will  neitiier  otfer  nor  accept  of 
any  guarantee,  in  relation  to  the  taxes  wii.cii  are  to  be  imposed  lor  the  support  of 
Government.  The  only  guarantee  wliich  ougiit  eitiier  to  be  tendered,  or  received, 
betwixt  the  parties  to  the  social  compact,  is  the  mutual  confidence  which  ought  always 
to  subsist  between  them,  and  without  which,  the  compact  ought  never  to  be  formed. 
This  was  the  only  guarantee,  given  by  our  ancestors  to  each  other,  when  they  formed 
the  old  compact,  which  was  sealed  with  their  blood,  and  it  is  the  only  one  I  will  give, 
or  take,  now.  And,  Sir,  all  the  argu.uents  we  have  heard,  founded  upon  the  diver- 
sity of  interests  supposed  to  exist,  between  the  Eastern  and  Western  people  of  this 
State,  are  arguments  in  favor  of  a  division  of  the  State,  and  not  m  favor  of  a  guar- 
antee, or  in  favor  of  putting  the  Government  into  the  hands  of  the  minority.  And 
if  gentlemen  can  convince  me,  that  our  interests  are  so  distinct,  or  so  conflicting  as 
they  have  represented  them  to  be,  I  for  one,  am  in  favor  of  an  immediate  division  of 
the  State.  And  no  happier  illustration  of  what  I  am  endeavoring  to  impress  upon 
the  Committee,  could  be  desired,  than  that  afforded  by  the  eloquent  gentleman  irom 
Hanover,  when  he  called  upon  us  to  imagine,  what  would  have  been  the  course  which 
the  Adams's,  Franklin,  Washington,  Lee,  and  the  Pv-utledge"s,  would  have  recom- 
mended their  countrymen  to  pursue,  had  this  country  been  equally  represented  in 
Parliament  according  to  numbers,  at  the  time  the  tax  was  imposed  upcn  tlie  tea  con- 
sumed in  this  country.  And  had  the  taxes  been  imposed  by  the  majority  in  Parlia- 
ment, against  all  their  united  votes,  and  remonstrances,  for  purposes  which  could  in 
no  way  benefit  or  interest  the  people  of  this  country,  according  to  the  principles 
now  contended  for  by  that  gentleman,  and  all  those  who  have  spoken  on  the  same 
side,  they  should  have  recommended  to  the  people  to  ask  for  more  power,  that  beina- 
the  only  guarantee  which,  in  their  opinion,  can  be  received,  as  sufficient  for  the  pro- 
tection of  property.  And  they  should,  upon  this  principle,  now  so  strenuously  conten- 
ded for,  (that  is,  that  representation  should  be  in  proportion  to  population  and  taxation 
combined,)  have  asked,  tliat  an  estimate  should  be  made  of  the  value  of  all  the  pro- 
perty in  the  two  countries,  or  of  all  the  taxes  paid  in  each,  that  the  representation 
might  be  equalized  according  to  this  combined  ratio.  But  according  to  my  ideas  of 
what  would  have  been  proper,  they  should  have  done,  what  they  certainly  would 
have  done,  under  such  circumstances,  that  is,  tliey  should  have  recommended,  as  they 
did  recommend  to  their  countrymen,  to  refuse  to  submit  to  those  laws,  and  declare 
themselves  an  independent  people.  That,  Sir,  was  the  only  course  which  was  left  to 
the  people  of  this  country  to  pursue  tlien;  and  if  the  interests  of  the  people  in  the 
Eastern  and  Western  divisions  of  this  State,  are  so  incompatible  with  each  other,  that 
we  cannot  trust  one  another,  without  overturning  the  fundamental  principles  of  our 
Government,  and  putting  the  power  into  the  hawds  of  the  minority,  there  is  no  other 
course  left  to  us  now,  but  to  divide  the  State.  But,  Sir,  I  do  not  believe  there  is  any 
such  diversity  or  clashing  of  interests  amongst  us;  if  there  be,  the  gentlemen  assert- 
ing it,  have  entirely  failed  in  the  proof;  and  until  it  be  shewn,  we  are  bound  to  pre- 
sume it  does  not  exist. 

1  promised  to  prove,  before  I  took  my  seat,  that  the  people  of  the  district  in  which  I 
live,  are  more  united  by  the  ties  of  conunon  interest  with  the  people  in  this  part  of 
the  State,  than  the  people  of  the  Culpeper  or  Accomack  districts  can  be.  And  I  now 
proceed  to  redeem  that  promise. 

It  is  known  that  this  City  and  the  town  of  Lynchburg,  and  the  intermediate  coun- 
try, afford  our  only  market  for  our  surplus  produce,  upon  the  disposal  of  which,  we 
depend,  for  all  the  luxuries  and  many  of  the  comforts  and  even  necessaries  of  life. 
Of  course  we  feel  a  deep  interest  in  their  prosperity.  The  people  of  the  Culpeper 
district,  trade  altogether  to  Fredei-icksburg  and  Alexandria  ;  and  the  people  of  Acco-  *■ 
mack,  to  Baltimore  ;  thej^^  of  course,  feel  a  deep  interest  in  the  prosperity  of  those 
towns,  but  certainly  none  in  that  of  Lynchburg  or  Richmond.  We  would  be  dis- 
posed to  defend  tJiis  City  from  an  enemy,  if  it  were  only  to  secure  to  ourselves  a 
market  hereafter  :  they,  on  the  contrary,  might  find  it  to  their  interest  that  this  City 
should  be  burned  to  ashes,  inasmuch  as  it  might  be  the  means  of  driving  some  of  its 
capitalists  to  live  in  the  towns  which  they  are  in  the  habit  of  looking  to  for  a  market. 
We  have  no  other  channel,  by  which  we  can  carry  on  a  commercial  intercourse  with 
the  world,  except  the  James  River  ;  it  is  therefore  our  interest  to  keep  up  a  good  un- 
derstanding with  th  )se  who  live  on  its  banks,  and  to  endeavor  to  get  it  improved  : 
they,  on  the  contrary,  might  be  benefited  by  the  navigation  being  entirely  destroyed , 
as  it  would  keep  a  great  many  competitors  out  of  the  market  Intrulh,  our  interests 
are  so  intimately  connected  with  those  of  the  people  along  the  whole  course  of  the 
James  River,  that  we  might  as  well  attempt  to  make  our  streams  flow  in  an  opposite 
direction,  as  to  attempt  to  sever  them.    Their  interests,  on  tlie  contrary,  all  tend  to 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


233 


attach  them,  to  people  living  either  out  of  this  Commonwealth,  or  in  some  other  part 
of  it  than  this. 

A  great  deal  has  been  said  upon  the  subject  of  roads  and  canals,  but  without  much 
bearing  upon  the  question  under  discussion,  as  far  as  I  am  capable  of  judging.  The 
gentleman  from  the  Culpeper  district,  (Mr.  Scott.)  for  instance,  undertook  to  prove, 
that  all  improvements  cost  more  as  you  advance  vrestward,  by  comparing  the  cost  of 
the  Potomac  canal  with  some  little  improvement  on  the  Rapidan.  He  also  made  some 
remarks  upon  the  subject  of  the  James  River  Canal,  which  it  will  not  be  improper  for 
me  to  notice.  The  gentleman  seems  to  be  of  opinion,  that  this  improvement  was 
undertaken  at  the  instance  of  some  Western  man.  I  think  in  this  he  is  mistaken,  for 
I  have  always  been  under  the  impression,  that  this  im-provement  was  first  suggested 
by  some  person  living  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge.  I  thought  it  a  little  curious,  that  the 
gentleman  should  have  changed  his  original  ground,  which  was,  that  improvements 
cost  more  as  you  go  Westward,  than  they  do  in  the  East,  when  speaking  of  the 
James  River  Canal,  and  seem  disposed  to  a.ttribute  the  immense  cost  of  this  work, 
■not  to  its  situation  in  the  West,  but  to  the  fact  of  its  having  been  a  AVestern  scheme, 
for  the  benefit  of  the  Western  people.  But,  Sir,  I  deny  that  this  improvement  was 
undertaken  exclusively  for  the  benefit  of  the  West.  It  was  expected  greatly  to  benefit 
the  coal  trade  ;  and  as  soon  as  it  had  reached  a  certain  point,  and  ail  the  advantages 
which  the  East  expected  to  gain  from  it,  had  been  secured,  it  v."as  stopped  short ;  and 
we  are  now  taxed  with  double  tolls,  to  pay  the  expense  of  a  work,  which  has  never 
been  of  the  least  benefit  to  us.  And  the  great  cost  of  this,  and  other  works  of  the 
kind,  is  now  to  be  made  the  pretext  for  depriving  us  of  our  just  share  of  power  in  the 
Legislature,  it  being  apprehended,  that  we  will  impose  unjust  taxes  upon  our 
Eastern  brethren,  to  make  improvements  in  the  West.  I  conscientiously  believe, 
that  the  suspicion  is  not  well  founded,  and  that  the  whole  argum_ent,  which  has  been 
attempted  to  be  deduced  from  the  supposed  disposition  of  the  Western  people,  to  im- 
prove their  country,  at  the  expense  of  the  East,  is  unsound,  and  onl}' calculated  to 
deceive  and  mislead  the  members  of  this  Convention. 

It  has  been  very  often  repeated  in  this  debate,  that  each  man  in  the  Eastern  part  of 
the  State,  pays  more  than  three  dollars  for  every  dollar  that  is  paid  by  each  Western 
man  into  the  Treasury.  I  cannot  perceive  any  good  reason  why  this  circumstance 
should  have  been  so  often  brought  to  our  view,  for  I  can  hardly  believe  that  the  Eastern 
people  would  be  so  unreasonable  as  to  expect  that  they  should  derive  the  principal 
part  of  the  benefits  from  the  existence  of  the  Government,  and  that  the  VVestern  peo- 
ple should  pay  all  the  expense  attending  its  administration.  I  have  already  endea- 
vored to  prove,  that  each  individual  ought  to  pa}'  taxes  in  proportion  to  his  ability  to 
pay,  upon  the  ground,  that  he  who  owns  most  property,  derives  the  greatest  benefit 
from  the  existence  of  the  Government  and  of  the  laws;  and  upon  the  same  principle, 
the  Eastern  people,  owning  three  times  as  much  property  as  the  Western  people,  and 
consequently  deriving  three  times  as  much  benefit  from  the  Government,  ought  to 
pay  three  times  as  much  of  the  expenses.  I  am  also  inclined  to  think,  that  if  there 
is  three  times  as  much  money  paid  into  the  Treasury  by  the  Eastern  people  as  is  paid 
by  the  West,  there  is  a  still  greater  proportion  of  the  money  expended  in  the  East. 
Nearly  all  the  money  Avhich  has  ever  been  expended  in  the  West,  has  been,  what  has 
been  expended  in  improving  the  Kanawha  river,  and  in  making  the  Kanawha  road ; 
and  for  that,  the  State  derives  a  tolerable  equivalent  in  the  tolls  collected.  Whilst 
hundreds  of  thousands  of  dollars  have  been  expended  in  Eastern  Virginia,  in  building 
and  inclosing  tliis  very  Capitol ;  in  erecting  the  other  public  buildings  in  this  city  ;  in 
making  the  James  River  Canal,  and  in  establishing  the  University,  to  say  nothing  of 
the  immense  expenditure  of  public  money  in  building  fortifications  on  the  sea  coast, 
which  money,  although  not  drawn  out  of  the  State  Treasury,  is  expended  among  the 
Eastern  people  for  their  peculiar  benefit,  and  is  collected  from  the  whole  people  of  the 
United  States. 

The  Western  men  having  been  charged  with  voting  away  the  public  m^oney,  for 
W"estern  purposes,  it  is  proper  for  me  to  say,  that  in  the  course  of  several  years  du- 
ring which  I  have  been  in  the  Legislature,  I  have  always  voted  very  cheerfully  for  all 
appropriations  which  have  been  asked  for,  for  improving  the  country,  uninfluenced 
by  any  local  considerations  v\diatever ;  and  that  I  have  always  voted  as  willingly  for 
the  expenditure  of  the  pubhc  money  in  the  East,  as  in  the  West. 

There  was  one  idea  advanced  by  most  of  the  gentlemen  who  have  advocated  the 
opposite  side  of  this  question,  which  appeared  to  be  very  much  rehed  upon,  as  prov- 
ing the  propriety  of  our  granting  to  the  minority,  the  power  they  ask  for,  and  which 
I  should  have  noticed  before,  if  the  gentleman  from  Fairfax,  (Mr.  Fitzbugh)  had  not 
sufficiently  refuted  it  already.  I  allude  to  the  expression  so  often  used,  that  those 
who  lay  the  taxes,  ought  to  be  responsible  to  those  who  pay  the  taxes.  I  will  barely 
remind  the  gentleman  from  Accomack,  who  advanced  this  idea  last,  that  it  isnotnov/ 
the  case,  and  never  can  be  the  case,  to  the  extent  which  he  seems  to  contend  for, 
that  those  who  lay  the  taxes,  shall  be  responsible  to  those  who  pay  them.    For  that 

30 


234 


DEBATES  OP  THE  CONVENTION. 


whilst  his  county  has  more  than  a  thousand  voters  in  it,  the  principal  part  of  the  taxes 
are  paid  by  about  two  hundred ;  and  yet  the  members  of  the  House  of  Delegates  will 
always  find  themselves  compelled  to  obey  the  wishes  of  the  eight  hundred  who  con- 
stitute the  majority,  rather  than  the  minority,  who  pay  the  greater  part  of  the  taxes. 
And  any  member  obeying  the  instructions  of  the  minority,  in  opposition  to  those  of 
the  majority,  would  be  sure  to  lose  his  seat  at  the  next  election. 

I  have  only,  in  conclusion,  to  notice  the  proposition  for  a  compromise,  made  by  the 
venerable  gentlemen  from  Loudoun,  for  the  purpose  of  remarking,  that  I  am  opposed 
to  it;  for  I  fear,  if  it  prevails,  there  will  be  constant  jealousies  and  dissentions  betwixt 
the  two  Houses;  and  I  cannot  willingly  give  my  vote  for  a  proposition,  subversive  of 
the  great  fundamental  principles  of  Republican  Government,  viz:  that  the  majority 
shall  always  govern. 

Mr.  Moore  having  concluded  his  remarks,  he  moved  for  the  rising  of  the  Commit- 
tee ;  when 

Mr.  Doddridge  enquired  of  Mr.  Taylor,  whether  it  was  probable  the  difficulty  to 
which  he  adverted,  would  be  removed  in  time  for  the  meeting  of  the  Convention  to- 
morrow ? 

Mr.  Taylor  answered,  that  he  presumed  it  would.  He  had  intimated  his  purpose 
to  the  senior  member  of  the  delegation  ;  and  he  should  to-morrow  send  in  to  the  Pre- 
sident, his  letter  of  resignation.  He  hoped  his  colleagues  would  be  able,  by  to-morrow^ 
to  have  the  vacancy  supplied. 

The  Committee  then  rose,  and  the  House  adjourned. 


SATURDAY,  November  7,  1829. 

The  Convention  was  opened  with  prayers  by  the  Rev.  Mr.  Lee  of  the  Episcopal 
Church,  and  the  President  took  the  Chair. 

The  President  laid  before  the  Convention  a  letter  from  Robert  B.  Taylor,  Esq.  (a 
Delegate  from  the  Norfolk  District,)  which  was  read  as  follows  : 

Sir, — Many  of  my  constituents  have  instructed  me  to  support  the  proposed  plan  of 
apportioning  representation,  with  regard  to  white  population  and  taxation  combined; 
and  I  liave  reason  to  believe  that  a  large  majority  of  the  people  of  my  District  concur 
in  the  desire,  expressed  in  those  instructions. 

It  is  due  to  myself  to  prevent  all  misrepresentation  of  my  official  conduct.  I  was 
elected  to  this  body,  with  the  full  knowledge  of  my  constituents,  that  I  favored  re- 
forms in  the  existing  Constitution.  I  came  here  untrammelled  by  instructions ;  and 
restrained  by  no  pledges.  I  am  unfortunate,  indeed,  in  this,  that  my  opinions  do  not 
harmonize  with  those  of  my  constituents ;  but  I  have  disappointed  no  expectation ; 
violated  no  engagement ;  betrayed  no  trust. 

Having  always  believed,  and  maintained,  that  the  value  of  representative  Govern- 
ment mainly  depends  on  the  principle,  that  representation  is  only  a  mean,  whereby 
the  deliberate  will  of  the  constituent  body  is  to  be  expressed  and  effectuated,  no  act 
of  mine  shall  ever  impair  the  principle.  Had  my  constituents  instructed  me  on  some 
matter  of  mere  expediency;  or  required  me  to  perform  any  thing,  which  was  possi- 
ble ;  it  would  have  afforded  me  pleasure  to  testify  with  how  cheerful  a  submission,  I 
would  give  effect  to  their  opinions,  rather  than  my  own.  But  they  ask  what  is  im- 
possible. They  require  me  to  violate  my  conscience  and  the  sentiment  of  filial  devo- 
tion, which  I  owe  to  my  country. 

Believing,  as  I  conscientiously  do,  that  the  measure  I  am  instructed  to  support,  is 
hostile  to  free  institutions ;  destructive  to  equality  of  right  among  our  citizens,  and 
introductive  of  a  principle,  that  a  minority,  on  account  of  superior  wealth,  shall  rule 
the  majority  of  the  qualified  voters  of  the  State,  I  should  be  guilty  of  moral  treason 
against  the  liberty  of  my  native  land,  if  I  allowed  myself  to  be  the  instrument  by 
which  this  mischief  is  effected.  In  this  state  of  mind,  by  executing  the  wishes  of 
my  constituents,  I  should  justly  subject  myself  to  their  reproaches,  for  my  baseness, 
and  to  the  more  insufferable  reproaches  of  my  own  conscience. 

One  mode  only  remains  to  reconcile  my  duties  to  my  constituents,  to  the  higher 
and  more  sacred  duties  I  owe  to  myself,  and  my  country.  It  is  to  resign  the  office, 
which  they  conferred  upon  me  ;  and  thereby  to  enable  my  colleagues  to  select  a  suc- 
cessor, who  more  fortunate  than  I  am,  may  give  effect  to  their  wishes,  without  viola- 
ting any  sentiment  of  private  and  public  duty. 

Allow  me  to  ask  that  this  letter  may  have  a  place  on  your  Journal.  Forgive  the 
feeling,  which  prompts  this  request.  If  any  eye  shall  hereafter  read  my  humble 
name,  I  wish  that  the  same  page,  which  records  my  retirement  from  your  service, 
may  also  record  the  motives  (mistaken  perhaps,  but  not  unworthy,)  which  occasioned  it. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONTENTION. 


235 


I  leave  the  Convention,  Sir,  with  sentiments  of  profound  respect,  and  veneration 
for  the  virtue  and  talent,  which  ennoble  and  adorn  it.    My  heart  will  still  attend  your 
counsels  ;  and  I  shall  not  cease  to  supplicate  the  Almighty,  that  he  may  so  inspire  and 
direct  them,  that  Virginia  may  be  regenerated,  united,  free  and  happy. 
I  have  the  honor  to  be.  your  obedient  servant, 

ROBERT  B.  TAYLOR. 

James  Moxroe,  Esq. 

President  of  the  Convention. 

On  Mr.  ^Mercer's  motion,  the  letter  of  Gen.  Taylor  was  laid  on  the  table. 

Mr.  Grigsby,  of  the  Borough  of  Norfolk,  has  been  elected  by  the  rest  of  the  Dele- 
gates as  a  Delegate  to  serve  in  the  place  of  Roberr  B.  Ta3'lor,  Esq.  resigned. 

The  standing  order  having  been  read,  the  Convention  resolved  itself  into  a  Com- 
mittee of  the  AViiole  on  the  Constitution.  Mr.  Powell  in  the  Chair. 

Messrs.  Scott  and 'Green  made  some  explanations  in  relation  to  the  remarks  pre- 
sented by  Mr.  Moore  of  Rockbridge  on  Friday,  on  the  improvement  of  the  James  River. 

Mr.  Scott  referred  to  the  Journals  of  the  House  of  Deleofates,  to  shew  that  on  va- 
rious occasions  members  from  the  region  of  country  below  the  Ridge  and  in  the  Valley 
had  voted  with  the  West  for  objects  of  internal  improvement,  even  when  their  own 
country  was  not  specially  interested. 

Mr.  Green  detailed  the  circumstances  of  the  compromise,  by  which  the  members 
from  the  lower  country  were  induced  to  consent  to  a  larger  appropriation  for  the  James 
River  improvement,  than  they  would  otherwise  have  done,  in  consequence  of  a  sti- 
pulation in  the  act  for  that  object,  that  the  tolls  should  not  be  raised  until  the  rate  of 
transportation  was  lowered. 

2klr.  Moore  explained  on  the  same  subject ;  shewing  that  he  had  voted  for  internal 
improvements  which  were  on  the  West  or  East  of  the  mountains.  He  disclaimed  all 
sectional  feelings,  however  other  gentlemen  miglit  entertain  them. 

Mr.  Leigh  hoped  that  the  Committee  would  rise,  to  give  a  gentleman  on  this  floor 
(Mr.  Giles)  an  opportunity  of  addressing  them  to  greater  advantage  hereafter;  his 
indisposition  this  morning  was  aggravated  by  the  state  of  the  weather.  He  said  be- 
sides, tliat  there  were  at  least  five  gentlemen  absent.  He  said  he  was  perfectly  wilhng 
to  withdraw  his  motion,  if  any  otiier  o-entleman  was  prepared  and  wilhng  to  take  the 
floor. 

Mr.  Doddridge  repeated  the  same  sentiment,  and  hoped  that  some  gentleman  would 
rise,  if  ready  to  address  the  Committee. 

But  no  one  rising  for  that  purpose,  Mr.  Doddridge  made  a  motion  for  the  Committee 
to  rise,  which  was  carried  without  opposition  ;  and  then  Mr.  Powell  reported  that  the 
Committee  had,  according  to  order,  taken  into  consideration  the  subject  referred  to 
them,  but  had  adopted  no  resolution  thereon. 

And  then,  on  Mr,  M'Coy"s  motion,  the  Convention  adjourned  until  Monday,  eleven 
o'clock. 


MONDAY,  November  9,  1529. 

Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr.  Hor- 
ner of  the  Catholic  Church. 

According  to  the  standing  order,  the  House  went  into  Committee  of  the  Whole, 
Mr.  Powell  in  the  Chair. 

The  following  is  the  substance  of  Mr.  Giles'  remarks,  taken  down  by  a  stenogra- 
pher, in  his  own  language,  and  corrected  by  Mr.  Giles  himself. 

Mr.  Giles  said  :  After  all  the  subjects  of  this  debate  have  been  so  fully  elaborated, 
and  thoroughly  exhausted,  it  may  be  deemed  presumption  in  liim  to  attempt  a  further 
elucidation  of  them  ;  repetitions  too,  might  be  deemed  intrusive  on  the  time,  and  even 
wanting  in  respect  to  the  intelligence  of  the  Committee.  Notwithstanding  these  dis- 
couragements, he  felt  impelled  by  an  irresistable  sense  of  duty,  to  extend  the  debate 
still  further,  not  with  a  vain  hope  of  throwing  new  interesting  lights  on  the  subject; 
nor  with  a  hope  of  obtaining  a  lean  majority.  A  lean  majority  on  either  side  would 
be  a  poor  triumph  of  friends  over  friends ;  and  still  more  so,  on  the  afiirmative  than 
negative  side  of  the  proposed  amendments  to  the  Constitution,  and  would  be  better 
calculated  to  attract  the  distrust  than  the  confidence  of  our  constituents.  But  his 
principal  inducement  for  continuing-  the  debate,  was  a  faint  glimmering  hope  of  ap- 
proaching nearer  to  unanimity  in  whatever  measures  may  be  adopted,  than  we  seem 
to  be  at  present,  from  any  indications  now  before  us.  Unanimity  would,  indeed,  be 
an  eflect  worthy  of  this  great  occasion,  and  worthy  the  sacrifice  which  he  consid- 
ered every  individual  member  called  upon  to  make,  to  obtain  the  objects  of  the  Con- 


236 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


vention.  Without  some  approach  to  unanimity,  he  feared  all  our  labours  here,  might 
be  worse  than  unavailing.  Why  should  we  not  approach  this  unanimity?  All  see 
that  there  are  sufficient  inducements  to  make  the  best  effort,  and  fortunately,  not  with- 
out the  authority  of  great  example  on  this  occasion.  The  existing  Constitution  which 
we  are  called  upon  to  examine,  modify,  or  abolish,  was  produced  by  unanimity.  Our 
forefathers  were  magnanimous  enough,  after  a  laborious  investigation,  conducted  with 
the  most  ardent  zeal,  to  agree  to  it  by  an  unanimous  vote.  And  why  should  not  we 
follow  their  noble  example  ?  It  was  said  that  this  unanimity,  and  this  very  Constitu- 
tion were  produced  by  a  sense  of  danger ;  and  were  the  effects  of  haste  and  alarm. 
He  was  sorry  to  hear  this  suggestion  repeated,  because  it  was  unfounded.  It  is  true 
that  our  forefathers  did  act  m  imminent  peril,  and  under  full  sense  of  that  peril,  but 
it  is  not  true,  that  the  instrument  they  produced,  was  the  effect  of  haste  or  alarm. 
Though  they  were  highly  sensible  of  the  danger;  it  never  disturbed  the  equanimity  of 
their  minds,  during  their  whole  proceedings.  They  went  on  coolly  and  dispassionate- 
ly, notwithstanding  the  dangers  tliat  surrounded  them,  and  the  final  result,  was  the 
production  of  this  Constitution.  This  danger,  far  from  being  appalling,  was  viewed 
by  them  with  sport,  contempt,  and  even  derision.  He  had  been  frequently  told,  that 
nothing  was  more  common,  than  that  the  members  should  sportively  jeer  each  other, 
with  saying,  we  must  hang  all  together,  or  be  hung  one  by  one.  Is  it  possible,  that 
any  state  of  mind  could  have  produced  a  stronger  incentive  to  exert  their  best  efforts, 
for  arriving  at  the  best  results  ?  Did  not  this  state  of  mind  afford  the  strongest  incen- 
tives for  calling  into  action  every  feeling  of  the  heart,  and  every  dictate  of  the  head, 
to  the  perfection  of  their  great  work,  with  one  united  voice  They  accordingly  pre- 
sented to  us,  the  best  Constitution  that  was  ever  presented  to  any  people  under  the 
sun ;  accompanied  too,  with  perfect  unanimity.  The  history  of  their  proceedings, 
will  show  that  although,  in  the  commencement  of  their  discussion,  there  was  as  much 
difference  of  opinion  amongst  them,  as  amongst  ourselves,  and  those  opinions  main- 
tained with  as  much  ardour  and  zeal ;  yet  they  nobly  compromised  all  their  differ- 
ences, and  came  to  an  unanimous  result.  We  are  in  a  different  situation.  We  are 
in  a  state  of  perfect  security.  No  danger  threatens  us.  We  are  perfectly  free.  Yes, 
Sir,  perfectly  free  to  indulge  the  wildest  speculative  visions  of  our  imaginations  in 
search  of  philosophical  abstractions,  to  introduce  into  our  fundamental  laws  for  prac- 
tical purposes.  Whence  arises  this  state  of  security Surely  from  the  patriotic  and 
heroic  labours  which  our  venerable  ancestors  performed  under  different  circumstances : 
We  are  so  secure  from  the  moral  tendency  of  those  fundamental  laws,  with  which  we 
were  blessed  54  years  ago,  that  there  is  no  fear  that  we  shall  hang  one  hy  one,  even  if 
we  should  refuse  to  hang  all  together.  Although  we  are  perfectly  free  from  the  appre- 
hensions of  personal  injuries,  we  are  not  without  the  strongest  inducements,  to  make 
us  combine  to  use  our  best  efforts  in  producing  unanimity  in  our  proceedings.  Should 
we  fail  in  the  objects  for  which  we  are  called  together,  we  would  lose  the  confidence 
of  our  constituents,  and  whatever  political  fame  and  standing  we  have  acquired ;  and 
should  disappoint  the  expectations  of  our  fellow-citizens,  and  of  the  world. 

He  mentioned  these  circumstances,  to  show  us  the  necessity  of  banishing  all  preju- 
dices, passions,  and  prepossessions  ;  and,  if  possible,  to  be  unanimous  in  our  results, 
whatever  they  maybe.  He  begged  to  be  permitted  to  remark,  that  he  had  been  de- 
lighted with  all  the  arguments  presented  to  the  Committee,  not  only  on  account  of 
their  elaborate  researches,  and  tlieir  splendid  display  of  talents,  eloquence,  and  instruc- 
tion ;  but  on  account  of  their  honorable  frankness  and  candour.  This  remark  was  in- 
tended to  apply  equally  to  both  sides  of  the  question.  The  whole  debate  appeared  to 
him  to  have  afforded  a  new  and  conspicuous  example  of  the  just  celebrity  which  Vir- 
ginia has  obtained  for  morals  and  for  principles.  The  arguments  on  both  sides,  were 
presented  front  to  front,  and  with  so  little  disguise,  equivocation  or  evasion,  that  to 
form  a  just  comparison  of  their  respective  merits,  it  was  only  necessary  to  re-view 
them  in  their  state  of  confrontation.  But,  while  he  felt  this  pleasure  at  the  progress  of 
the  argument,  he  could  not  avoid  expressing  the  deepest  regret,  that  a  difference  of 
local  interests,  should  have  interposed  to  interrupt  this  happy  spirit,  in  conducting  this 
discussion.  Such  local  interests,  however,  do  exist,  and  they  are  too  important 
either  to  be  overlooked  or  disregarded.  To  obliterate  them,  would  seem  to  be 
impossible.  This  difference  of  interests  consists  in  the  unequal  position  of  the  slave 
property  in  this  State,  and  this  interest  is  so  im^portant,  that  the  production  of  the  la- 
bour of  the  slaves,  form.s  the  foundation  of  one  third  of  the  whole  taxes  of  the  State. 
Although  confronted  at  the  threshold  by  this  unfortunate  stumbling  block,  it  was  the 
duty  of  all  to  meet  and  subdue  the  difficulty,  or  to  apply  such  remedy  as  would  be  ac- 
ceptable to  all. 

The  venerable  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  (Mr.  Monroe,)  thinks  emancipation  im- 
possible, without  the  aid  of  the  Federal  Government;  and,  perhaps,  it  would  not  be 
possible  even  with  that  aid — an  aid  which,  could  it  be  had,  surely  would  not  be  desir-. 
able  to  any.  He  hoped  the  venerable  gentleman  would  excuse  him  for  saying,  that 
he  did  not  see  the  precise  applicability  of  his  remarks  to  the  precise  subject  un- 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


237 


der  consideration,  and  he  could  not  avoid  saying,  that  his  feelings  were  much  excited 
at  the  mere  suggestion  of  calling  upon  the  Federal  Government  for  aid  in  so  delicate 
a  question.  What  would  be  the  effect  of  calling  on  the  Federal  Government,  to  aid  us 
in  the  common,  ordinary,  murucipal  regulations  of  the  State.  Some  gentlemen  call 
for  the  aid  of  the  General  Government  in  the  prosecution  of  Internal  Improvements. 
The  venerable  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  thinks  it  may  be  required  for  the  emancipa- 
tion of  our  slaves,  and  says,  ••  he  even  doubts  if  we  were  disposed  to  divide  the  State, 
whether  we  should  be  permitted  to  do  so  by  the  General  Government."  What  will 
be  the  effects  of  all  tliese  dependencies  on  that  Government  ?  The  effects  must  be  the 
annihilation  of  all  State  rights — the  destruction  of  the  State  Governments — and  more, 
the  amalgamation  of  a  great  mass  of  power  in  the  Federal  Government.  Have  gen- 
tlemen reflected  on  the^tendencies  of  a  vast  momentum  of  power,  collected  in  any 
hands,  vv^hich  are  beyond  their  control?  Is  it  not  inevitable,  that  it  must  beat  down  the 
barriers  of  all  political  powers,  which  may  be  interposed  to  palsy  its  influence  by  divi- 
sion.? The  best  we  could  ho])e  under  such  an  amalgamation,  would  be  a  consolidated 
despotism.  This  consummation  could  be  desirable  to  none.  He  had  merely  made  these 
general  remarks  with  a  view  of  protesting  against  the  interference  of  the  General 
Government,  and  of  preventing  their  intrusion  in  the  discussion  before  us,  by  dispos- 
ino-  of  them  at  this  early  period.  Were  it  not  for  this  important  difference  of  sec- 
tional interests,  he  would  indulge  the  most  flattering  hope  that  the  Convention  should 
be  enabled  to  improve  the  condition  of  man,  by  adding  to  the  great  political  lights 
heretofore  shed  on  this  State,  and  the  whole  world,  by  our  venerated  forefathers.  He 
considered  the  science  of  politics  yet  in  a  state  of  infiney.  While  he  observed  the 
march  of  the  human  intellect,  in  bringing  to  perfection  all  the  other  arts  and  sciences, 
viewing  with  wonder  the  improvements  which  have  been  made  in  the  last  century,  or 
perhaps  still  more  in  the  last  half  century,  he  could  not  but  observe,  that  the  science 
of  politics,  had  not  kept  pace  in  improvements  with  any  of  the  otlier  arts  and  sciences. 
The  only  effort  at  improvement,  was  the  one  originally  adopted  by  the  framers  of  our 
Constitution.  This  was  only  fifty-four  years  ago ;  a  mere  speck  in  the  progress  of 
time;  and  had  introduced  a  new  and  just  principle  in  the  science  of  politics — one  in 
direct  hostility  to  the  pre-existing  basis  on  which  all  other  Governments  were  founded. 
It  opened  a  new  eera  in  the  science  of  politics,  and,  he  hoped,  sincerely  hoped,  that 
our  American  statesmen  would  abandon  that  system  which  had  so  long  prevailed,  and 
had  proved  so  destructive  to  the  rights  and  liberties  of  the  liuman  race  ;  and  found  a 
new  science  upon  the  great  discoveries  of  our  forefathers.  We  have  not  done  so. 
We  have  rather  retrograded  to  those  principles  which  our  forefathers  had  abandoned. 
We  have  gone  back  to  imitate  the  British  system,  as  far  as  regards  practical,  political 
economy,  after  having  established  the  most  happy  and  beautiful  fundamental  systt  ro 
of  our  own.  And  this  is  one  cause  why  we  have  not  added  a  new  science  to  the  ex- 
isting political  economy,  suited  to  our  great  dtivelopements  in  fundamental  principles. 
There  is  another  cause.  All  other  Governments  were,  as  he  conceived,  founded  on 
fraud  and  backed  b}^  force.  The  few  who  had  by  combinations  usurped  the  rights  of 
the  many,  and  possessed  themselves  of  all  the  proceeds  of  their  productive  labour, 
have  employed  all  their  means  to  prevent  further  improvements  in  the  science  of  poli- 
tics, to  avoid  the  detection  and  exposure  of  the  fraud,  which  was  the  foundation  of 
their  systems.  We  know  it  was  their  great  object  to  prevent  an  examination  of  these 
subjects,  and  to  such  an  extent  did  tliey  carry  their  rigorous  vigilance,  that  the  first 
patriots,  Hampden  and  Sydney,  fell  victims  to  their  patriotic  enquiries  into  the  science 
of  politics.  These  causes  contributed  to  throw  the  science  of  politics  back,  and  to 
prevent  it  from  making  its  way  under  the  influence  of  that  march  of  intellect  which 
pressed  forward  all  the  other  sciences. 

He  should  suppose  it  was  the  duty  of  this  Convention,  to  turn  their  researches  into 
political  science.  A  great  discovery  had  been  made,  in  opposition  to  former  systems  : 
that  all  the  rights  of  Government  are  founded  in  the  consent  of  man,  and  that  con- 
sent is  ascertained  through  the  social  compact,  or,  in  other  words,  the  written  Consti- 
tution. There  is  a  difference  of  opinion,  however,  in  regard  to  the  true  characteristics 
of  the  social  compact,  and  particularly  in  relation  to  the  parties  to  it.  In  the  origin 
and  progress  of  the  social  compact,  every  inember  is  a  party  to  it;  each  representing 
his  own  individual  interests,  as  his  own  sovereign,  uninfluenced  by  the  majority.  At 
its  completion,  the  parties  become  changed  by  the  consent  of  all  its  members.  The 
compact  is  then  made  to  consist  of  only  two  parties,  the  governors  and  the  governed; 
and  whether  tlie  majority  shall  exercise  the  Government  or  not,  or  to  what  extent, 
must  depend  solely  on  the  written  compact.  Gentlemen  had  imputed  to  the  honorable 
gentleman  from  Orange,  to  whom  he  listened  with  great  pleasure,  the  assertion,  that 
a  minority  ought  to  govern,  as  well  as  a  majority.  This  imputation  had  been  extended 
too  far,  if  he  had  rightly  understood  the  gentleman  from  Orange.  He  did  not  under- 
stand that  gentleman,  as  declaring,  that  a  minority  ought,  in  any  case,  to  exercise 
active,  affirmative  legislation,  but  that  a  minority  was  sometimes  invested  with  autho- 
rity to  legislate,  in  a  negative  capacity,    A  minority  cannot  rightfully  govern,  in  any 


238 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


case,  but  it  is  often  used,  as  a  fit  instrument  to  prevent  a  majority  from  doing  what  it 
ought  not  to  do.  The  rights  of  the  majority  depend  solely  upon  the  compact.  It 
will  be  seen,  there,  how  far  a  majority  may  govern,  and  how  far  it  ought  to  be  checked. 
Here  we  have  a  local  interest,  which  is  admitted  by  all  to  be  applicable  to  peculiar 
sections  of  the  State,  but  not  to  the  whole  of  it.  This  local  interest  must  be  secured 
by  provisions  in  the  fundamental  laws ;  if  not,  upon  general  principles,  the  majority 
would  govern  it.  If  it  be  improper  that  the  majority  should  govern,  where  there  is  a 
particular,  local  interest,  the  minority  should  have  a  power  of  controlling  the  majority, 
so  far  as  to  afford  protection  to  such  particular,  local  interest.  Such  was  the  case  in 
the  Federal  Government,  as  was  illustrated  by  the  gentleman  from  Orange ;  from 
whose  lucid  remarks  he  derived  both  pleasure  and  instruction.  He  took  it  for  granted, 
that  the  majority  had  no  rights  but  those  that  were  vested  in  them  by  the  compact. 

Under  our  written  Constitution,  or  social  compact,  the  science  of  politicts  was 
divided  into  two  parts.  One  great  branch  of  the  science,  is  that  which  relates  to  the 
organization  of  the  fundamental  laws.  And  the  other  branch  is,  that  which  relates  to 
the  policy  to  be  observed  by  the  practical  government,  as  established  by  these  laws. 
No  effort  has  been  yet  made  to  enquire  into  these  subjects,  as  distinct  branches  of 
political  science.  The  American  mind  has  been  drawn  from  the  contemplation  of 
these  subjects  by  imitation.  The  love  of  imitation  is  one  of  the  strongest  passions  of 
the  human  mind  ;  and  instead  of  elaborating  a  new  system,  suited  to  our  own  disco- 
veries, we  have  been  led  into  the  imitation  of  British  systems  of  practical,  pohtical 
economy.  Here,  then,  is  a  new  field  opened  before  us,  for  the  extension  of  pohtical 
science. 

An  example  of  this  spirit  of  imitation,  may  be  seen  in  the  organization  of  the  Ex- 
ecutive of  the  United  States.  There  we  have  exhibited  the  anomaly  of  an  Execu- 
tive, attached  to  a  republican  Legislature,  having  more  monarchical  than  republican 
tendencies.  We  have  thrown  so  much  power  and  patronage  into  the  hands  of  the 
Federal  Executive,  that  we  must  see  the  danger  which  threatens  us  from  its  organiza- 
tion. Yet  that  Executive  is  now  held  up  to  us  for  our  imitation.  How  this  happened 
he  could  not  perceive,  if  gentlemen  had  the  same  views  of  the  organization  of  the 
Executive  of  the  Federal  Government,  that  he  had,  and  the  same  views  of  the  pecu- 
liar fitness  of  the  Executive  Government  of  Virginia,  as  it  is  now  established  to  a 
republican  form  of  Government.  So  far  from  abandoning  the  old  system,  and  falling 
into  the  gulph  of  imitation,  an  error,  the  strongest  of  the  natural  propensities 
of  man  ;  we  should  call  on  those  who  may  hereafter  aid  in  amending  the  Federal 
Constitution,  to  follow  the  example  of  Virginia.  If  the  Virginia  system  were  trans- 
ferred to  the  United  States,  it  would  be  the  best  improvement  that  could  be  adopted. 
The  events  of  the  last  four  years  m«st  be  sufficient  to  satisfy  every  gentleman,  that 
instead  of  calling  on  us  to  imitate  the  Executive  of  the  Federal  Government,  if  that 
Government  could  be  brought  to  in)itate  our  system,  it  would  be  the  most  important 
amendment  that  could  be  devised  in  the  formation  of  its  organic  laws. 

The  gentleman  from  Loudoun  (Mr.  Mercer)  whose  eloquence  he  had  listened  to 
with  great  pleasure,  had  pointed  to  the  Executive  Department,  as  one  of  the  great 
defects  in  the  present  Constitution  of  Virginia.  He  was  not  so  much  surprised  at  the 
reference,ashe  was  at  the  grounds  upon  which  the  gentleman  had  rested  his  objections. 
They  were  founded  on  a  supposed  want  of  responsibility.  That  want  of  responsibi- 
lity should  be  alleged  against  it,  Mr.  G.  said,  attracted  his  wonder.  If  there  was  any 
responsibility  in  any  Executive  under  the  sun,  it  is  in  ours,  as  at  present  organized. 
The  gentleman,  therefore,  has  taken  up  his  notions,  without  a  sufficiently  minute  ex- 
amination ;  for,  in  fact,  the  responsibility  of  the  Virginia  Executive,  was  the  strictest 
that  human  wisdom  could  devise.  What  is  the  responsibility  of  the  Executive  ?  The 
Executive  Council  are  required  to  keep  a  journal  of  their  proceedings,  which  is  signed 
by  every  member  present. 

The  agent  thus  renders  an  account  to  his  principal,  under  his  own  hand,  which 
can  always  be  referred  to,  as  evidence  of  the  manner  in  which  his  duties  are  fulfilled. 
What  are  the  duties  of  the  Governor  ?  His  accountability  is  as  strict,  though  not  as 
severe  as  that  of  the  Council.  He  is  at  liberty  to  follow  or  refuse  to  follow  the  ad- 
vice of  the  Council.  He  acts  on  his  own  responsibility  ;  he  is  not  bound  by  the 
Council.  The  journal  shows  his  own  acts  also,  and  consequently  his  responsibility. 
How,  then,  is  he  screened  from  his  own  responsibility?  This  Executive,  then,  is 
wisely  ordained.  It  is  the  wisest  effort  of  the  great  genius  of  the  writer  of  our 
Constitution,  in  makmg  the  whole  Executive  responsible  to  their  electors,  as  con- 
nected with  a  republican  Legislature.  He  had  been  struck  with  the  remarks  of  the 
gentleman  from  Loudoun.  (Mr.  Mercer)  and  had  wondered  how  a  gentleman  of  such 
intelligence  should  have  fallen  into  such  an  error,  as  it  appeared  to  him  to  be.  He 
had  felt  it  to  be  his  duty  to  do  away  the  imputation,  not  only  from  a  sense  of  justice 
to  the  Council,  but  to  this  and  to  all  nations.  This  Council  had  been  in  operation 
fifty-four  years.  If  there  had  been  any  misrule,  the  gentleman  could  point  it  out. 
He  invited  gentlemen  to  attend  to  the  condition  of  the  Executive,  not  only  at  the 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


239 


present  moment,  but  from  the  commencement  of  its  organization,  and  would  thank 
them  for  any  criticisms  on  any  of  its  pr  ceedings,  and  particularly  those  of  the  pre- 
sent day.  There  was  no  merit  in  the  administration,  but  a  merit  of  principle  arising 
from  responsibility.  If  we  have  had  an  Executive  in  Virginia,  which  has  gone  on  so 
smoothly,  so  easily,  so  little  known,  and  scarcely  felt  for  fifty-four  years,  discharing  all 
its  duties,  why  should  it  now  be  changed  ?  If  it  should  have  done  all  that  was  ex- 
pected, he  would  ask  if  there  was  not  some  hazard,  some  boldness,  in  changing  it  for 
something  untried  and  unknown?  As  to  want  of  power  in  the  Executive,  so  far  as 
his  experience  had  gone,  although  he  had  been  often  accused  of  an  inordinate  love  of 
power,  lie  then  had  as  much  power  as  he  wished  to  have,  or  ought  to  have,  or  as  any 
other  human  being  should  ever  have.  Executive  patronage  and  power  were  the  sure 
causes  of  all  political  mischiefs.  The  demoralizing  influence  which  we  have  seen 
throughout  the  whole  United  States,  arose  mainly  from  giving  too  much  patronage  to 
the  Federal  Executive.  But,  gentlemen  had  gone  further,  and  made  some  more  general 
charges  against  the  Constitution.  The  gentleman  from  Brooke  (Mr.  Doddridge)  to 
whom  he  always  listened  with  pleasure,  had  said,  that  the  Constitution  was  made 
amidst  peril  and  alarm — that  it  was  constructed  hastily — adopted  under  the  ex- 
igencies of  the  times,  and  was  never  considered  as  a  permanent,  organic  law.  He 
begged  to  be  permitted  to  repeat  the  words  of  the  gentleman,  as  taken  down  in  the 
newspapers,  not  with  a  view  of  throwing  them  back  upon  him  by  way  of  retort;  he 
was  incapable  of  such  rudeness  ;  but  from  his  extreme  reluctance  at  mis-stating  the 
words  of  any  gentleman.  The  words  are  the  following : — "  The  history  of  the  State 
would  show  that  the  present  Constitution  was  adopted  in  a  period  of  danger  and 
alarm;  that  it  had  been  hastily  enacted,  was  never  considered  as  an  organic  instru- 
ment, deliberately  agreed  upon  with  a  view  to  its  being  permanent,  but  adopted 
under  the  exigencies  of  the  times,  merely  as  a  temporary  expedient."  Suppose,  for 
a  moment,  the  Constitution  was  a  chance-medley — a  God-send.  If  it  were  a  God- 
send, it  was  the  most  blessed  God-send  with  which  man  was  ever  favoured.  So 
happy  have  we  been  under  it,  we  have  lived  so  harmoniously,  and  enjoyed  our- 
selves so  much  at  our  ease,  as  almost  to  foi-get  that  there  was  any  government.  Gov- 
ernment may  be  said  to  approacli  perfection,  when  man  does  not  know  that  he  is 
governed  at  all.  Would  gentlemen  discard  the  Constitution  merely  because  they 
conceived  it  to  be  a  lucky  hit,  and  not  a  dictate  of  wisdom ;  because  "they  deemed  it 
a  special  interposition  of  Providence  rather  than  the  production  of  the  wisdom  of 
man  We  ought  to  cherish  it  and  make  the  best  possible  use  of  it,  for  such  is  the 
manner  in  which  Christians  ought  to  treat  every  God-send.  So  directly  contrary  was 
the  argument  of  the  gentleman,  to  the  views  he  entertained  as  to  the  manner  in  which 
the  Government  was  formed.  To  show  the  mistake  into  which  the  gentleman  from 
Brooke  had  fallen,  with  respect  to  the  Constitution,  he  would  read  an  account  given 
by  the  President  of  the  Convention,  the  celebrated  Edmund  Pendleton,  whose  name, 
in  itself,  should  give  to  every  thing  he  said,  the  most  unquestionable  sanction.  He 
would  not  fatigue  the  Convention  with  much  reading,  but  the  mistake  was  so  serious, 
and  called  so  loudly  for  correction,  that  he  nmst  beg  its  attention  to  a  single  paragraph, 
because  these  mistaken  opinions  prevailed  on  this  subject  throughout  the  whole  State. 
The  paragraph  he  should  read,  is  found  in  a  letter  from  the  late  Mr.  Jefferson  to  the 
iate  Judge  Woodward,  giving  an  account  of  the  proceedings  of  the  Convention.  He 
would  read  but  a  few  sentences. 

He  (Mr.  Pendleton)  informed  me  (Mr.  Jefferson)  afterwards,  by  letter,  that  he  re- 
ceived it  on  the  day  on  which  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  had  reported  to  the  House, 
the  plan  they  had  agreed  to;  that  that  had  been  so  long  in  hand,  so  disputed  inch 
by  inch,  and  the  subject  of  so  much  altercation  and  debate,  that  they  were  worried 
with  the  contentions  it  had  produced,  and  could  not,  from  mere  lassitude,  have  been 
induced  to  open  the  instrument  again  :  but  that  being  pleased  with  the  preamble  to 
mine,  they  adopted  it  in  the  House  by  way  of  amendment  to  the  report  of  the  Com- 
mittee;  and  thus  my  preaml)le  became  tacked  to  the  work  of  George  Mason." 

He  begged  the  gentleman's  best  attention  to  this  historical  account  of  the  proceed- 
ings of  the  Convention,  and  they  could  not  avoid  seeing  the  direct  contrast  between 
it  and  the  account  given  by  otlaers.  So  far  as  he  was  enabled  to  do  so,  it  would  now 
be  his  pleasing  task  to  defend  the  Constitution  from  other  imputations.  He  regretted 
his  inability  to  do  justice  to  the  subject.  In  the  first  place,  the  wisdom  of  our  fore- 
fathers fixed  the  basis  of  the  Constitution,  on  land — on  earth — mother  earth.  We  are 
taught,  when  we  pray,  to  say  to  our  Creator,  "  in  thee  we  live,  and  move,  and  have 
our  being."  He  would  extend  the  reflection  so  far,  as  to  show  that  the  instrument  in 
the  hands  of  God,  was  land — earth — emphatically  our  mother  earth,  through  which 
we  do  "  live,  and  move,  and  have  our  beino^."  We  look  to  it  for  our  existence,  and 
we  look  to  it  for  our  subsistence.  It  gives  us  the  coarsest  food,  which  indigence  re- 
quires, and  supplies  us  with  all  the  highest  luxuries  which  refinement  can  desire.  It 
yields  our  ordinary  covering,  and  affords  all  the  ornaments  which  decorate  the  fair  of 
the  land.    From  the  lowest  necessity  to  the  highest  luxury,  we  are  indebted  for  all  to 


240 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


our  mother  earth.  Are  there  not,  then,  an  affinity  and  an  association  between  our 
mother  earth,  and  the  beino-s  who  exist  oji  it  ?  Would  it  not  be  unreasonable  and  un- 
philosophical  to  establish  a 'Government  for  the  inhabitants  of  the  land,  without  re- 
ference to  the  land  itself?  He  thought  it  certainly  would  be — he  might  be  too  much 
enchanted  with  the  idea,  that  there  existed  an  intimate  connexion  and  relationship 
between  the  land,  and  its  inhabitants — but  it  had  grown  out  of  the  best  reflection  he 
had  been  able  to  give  to  the  subject.  Yes,  he  considered  land  as  too  important  an  in- 
strument in  the  affairs  of  mankind,  to  be  entirely  disregarded,  in  the  formation  of  the 
organic  laws  for  the  govermnent  of  its  inhabitants.  He  would  say  land  is  the  best 
and  only  solid,  indestructible  foundation  for  Government,  unless  we  re-assert  the  di- 
vine right  of  Kings,  which  is  notliing  more  than  a  mere  human  invention,  founded  in 
fraud  and  falsehood.  The  wisest  provision  that  ever  was  made  in  any  Constitution,  is 
that  which  declares,  that  t!ie  riglit  of  suffi-age  should  remain  as  it  then  was.  It  was 
then  based  on  the  freehold  right  of  suffi-age.  But  he  did  not  mean  to  examine  that 
question  now.  He  mentioned  it  merely  to  attract  the  reflections  of  other  gentlemen. 
If  any  other  occasion  should  occur,  and  his  health  would  permit,  he  Avould  then  go 
into  a  further  examination  of  the  subject,  but  he  was  fearful  that  he  should  not  be  able 
at  this  time  to  go  through  all  the  observations  he  had  intended  to  make.  Our  forefa- 
thers then  fixed  on  land  as  the  basis  of  our  Constitution,  and  adopted  the  Republican 
form  of  Government.  The  means  for  carrying  the  Republican  system  into  effect,  are 
made  to  consist  of  individual  and  intermediate  elections  combined.  He  conceived 
this  to  be  the  wisest  combination  of  the  elective  franchise,  that  ever  was  devised.  It 
is  indispensable  in  these  United  States.  The  necessity  arises  from  the  extent  both  of 
territory  and  population.  He  knew  that  the  popular  current  was  running  strongly 
against  the  principle  of  intermediate  elections,  and  that  an  attempt  was  making  in 
this  country,  to  throw  all  governmental  duties,  in  relation  to  elections,  upon  the  peo- 
ple, in  their  individual  capacity.  This  is  visionary  and  impracticable  :  A  mere  ignis 
fatuus,  and  calculated  to  be  onerous  on  the  people,  whom  it  is  intended  to  benefit.  He 
was  satisfied,  that  the  people  could  not  beneficially  exercise  this  right,  to  its  full  ex- 
tent, in  a  great,  extended,  populous  community;  and,  therefore,  he  thought  it  was  ' 
proper  for  them,  in  certain  cases,  to  delegate  it  to  their  legislative  representatives. 
Intermediate  elections  are  a  refinement  in  the  representative  system,  known  only  in 
the  United  States;  and  instead  of  extending  its  utility,  we  are  throwing  ourselves 
back  upon  the  original  principle  of  representation,  by  man,  solely  in  his  individual 
character.  After  this  compound  system  of  election,  the  Government  is  based,  as  far 
as  practicable,  upon  a  separation  of  departments,  as  checks  on  each  other — the  Legis- 
lative, Executive,  and  Judicial.  These  checks  are  introduced  for  the  purpose  of  con- 
trolling the  unlimited  will  of  the  majority.  Unlimited  will,  wherever  it  be  found, 
whether  in  the  hands  of  a  majority  or  a  minority,  is  despotism.  He  had  bestowed 
much  reflection  on  this  subject,  and  it  had  produced  the  most  perfect  conviction,  that 
despotism  is  the  inevitable  effect  of  unlimited  will.  The  utility  of  these  checks,  then, 
is  seen  in  controlling  this  unlimited  will,  wherever  it  may  exist.  These  are  the  fixed 
and  stable  pillars,  niion  which  rests  the  useful  and  beautiful  superstructure  of  our 
Constitution.  These  pillars,  he  feared,  were  now  about  to  be  torn  down,  and  their 
'fragments  scattered  to  the  winds,  although  he  could  not  help  hoping  for  better  things. 
The  merits  of  this  Constitution  were  demonstrated  by  its  beneficial  results  for  54 
years ;  conspicuously  seen  by  the  present  moral  condition  of  our  society,  over  any 
other  known  to  him.  If  any  other  equalled  it,  in  morals  and  in  principles,  he  should 
be  glad  to  be  informed  of  it.  The  merits  of  the  Constitution  are  still  further  seen,  in 
the  harmonious  co-operation  of  all  its  parts,  to  produce  an  unity  of  object— one  great, 
common  good.  Its  merits  are  still  further  seen,  in  the  peculiar  favor  and  protection 
afforded  to  non-freeholders. 

In  all  complicated  controversies,  between  the  poor  and  the  rich,  it  is  knowm  that  there 
exists  a  very  strong  bias  in  favour  of  the  poor.  That  during  the  short  time  he  v/as  en- 
gaged in  the  practice  of  the  law,  he  recollects,  that  he  deemed  it  a  compliment  to  any 
County  Court,  in  which  justice  might  be  had  by  the  rich,  in  any  complicated  contro- 
versy with  the  poor ;  not  from  any  disposition  in  the  Court  to  do  injustice  to  any,  but 
from  the  difficulty  of  counteracting  the  popular  bias  in  favour  of  the  poor;  and  he 
believed  this  was  a  general  impression.  He  hazarded  nothing  in  saying,  that  the  poor 
are  better  protected  against  the  influence  of  the  rich,  under  our  Constitution,  than  any 
other  in  the  United  States.  Whilst,  therefore,  he  disclaimed  all  popular  viev/s,  he  ^ 
considered  himself  the  real  friend  of  the  poor,  in  endeavouring  to  sustain  our  system. 
Under  its  peculiar  organization,  justice  is  administered  to  the  poor  freely,  without  re- 
ward ;  and  the  whole  of  his  contributions,  of  every  description,  do  not  exceed  25.  3d., 
whereas,  the  costs  of  a  single  warrant,  under  the  perquisite  system,  which  is  proposed 
to  be  substituted  for  the  ex^isting  one,  would  cost  him,  perhaps,  ten  times  as  much  as 
all  his  present  contributions  put  together.  He  begged  to  call  the  attention  of  the  Con- 
vention to  another  point.  Much  had  been  said  about  the  order  and  decorum  of  our 
elections,  and  nothing  more  was  said  than  was  merited.    What  do  we  hear  from  other 


DEBATES    OF    THE  CONrENTIOX. 


241 


States,  to  which,  we  have  been  referred  for  precedents ;  but  which  the  gentleman  from 
Orange  had  truly  regarded  as  experiments,  in  opposition  to  experience  r  Look  at  every 
State  where  Sufe-age  has  been  extended  to  Universal  Suffirage.  and  you  will  see  uni- 
versal disorder,  intoxication,  and  demoralization  of  all  sorts.  He  had  been  amused  for 
a  day  or  tvvo  past,  in  noticing  what  was  doing  in  the  State  of  New-York.  The  Con- 
vention of  that  State,  had.  a  few  years  ago,  conferred  a  blessing  on  themselves,  by  ex- 
tending the  Right  of  Suffrage  to  people  of  all  colors — red,  black,  white  and  yellow. 
It  was  phUosopldcally  asserted,  that  mere  difference  of  colour  oucfht  not  to  have  any 
influence  whatever,  on  any  question  of  rights.  He  had  read  with  amusement,  one 
production  headed,  ••'  confusion  worse  confounded."  In  the  elections  just  had  in  Xew 
York,  he  found  that  there  were  two  parties.  Jackson  and  Anti-Jackson,  each  nomina- 
ting a  regular  ticket  for  their  elections.  Another  nomination,  however,  unexpectedly 
appeared,  supported  br  what  was  designated  Miss  Fanny  Wright's  party.  Yes,  she 
started  on  the  principle  of  the  Agrarian  Law ;  dividing  property,  morals,  and  all  the 
gifts  of  God  equally,  in  coimnon.  and  indiscriminately  amongst  the  whole  of  ■•  "We  the 
people."  For  the  two  first  days.  Miss  Fanny  Wright's  ticket  was  far  ahead,  and  great 
was  the  alarm,  lest  it  should  succeed.  By  great  exertions  of  all  parties  in  New- York, 
and  by  Providential  interposition,  ]\Iiss  Faimy  Wright's  ticket  did  not  succeed.  (Since 
the  delivery  of  this  speech,  it  appears  that  one  of  the  persons  on  Miss  Fannv  Wricrht's 
ticket  did  actually  succeed.)  Thus  that  State  has  escaped  from  an  Agrarian  Law, 
and  an  utter  subversion  of  morals  and  principles  for  the  present,  but  for  how  lonor, 
God  only  knows.  Gentlemen  will  probably  reph-,  tliat  the  population  of  New- York 
is  heteroo-eneous.  and  not  like  ours,  homogeneous.  This,  however,  all  must  admit,  is 
a  slender"distinction,  on  which  to  place  all  the  dearest  rights  and  hberties  of  man  :  A 
mere  presumed  difference  between  heterogeneous  and  homogeneous.  Suppose  this 
presumption  to  exist  in  degree.  All  must  admit  that  it  must  be  a  very  hmited  deoree. 
ZVIay  not  gentlemen  be  mistaken  in  the  conclusions  they  have  drawn  from  it .'  Under 
similar  circumstances,  men  are  the  same  every  where  :  and  similar  causes  will  always 
produce  similar  effects.  Its  merits  may  still  farther  be  inferred,  fiom  the  honorable 
compliments  awarded  it  in  this  debate,  even  by  its  adversaries,  in  the  frank  and  candid 
admission  of  the  honorable  liberahty  of  the  slave-holders  to  the  non-slave-holders  west 
of  the  Ridge,  and  yet  more  from  their  total  failure  to  show  any  misrule  whatever  un- 
der it,  although  emphatically  called  upon  to  do  so  by  his  most  worthy  and  honorable 
colleague.  (Mr.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield.) 

Under  its  benign  influence,  we  have  enjoyed  all  these  great,  civil  and  pohtical 
blessings,  in  the  midst  of  many  others,  for  54  years.  In  no  one  instance  has  the  wis- 
dom of  our  forefathers  been  more  conspicuously  displayed,  than  in  the  means  chosen 
to  effect  these  great  ends.  These  have  consisted  in  the  peculiar  organization  of  the 
County  Courts,  and  in  throwing  a  great  preponderancy  of  power  into  the  hands  of  the 
middling  class  of  society.  He  would  rather  have  a  Government  dependant  on  the 
middle  classes,  relying  upon  their  imiform  moral  tendencies,  without  any  check  or 
balance  whatever,  than  a  Government  entrusted  to  either  of  the  extremes  of  society, 
with  aU  the  checks  which  wisdom  could  devise.  The  organization  of  the  County 
Courts  is  marked  with  peculiar  wisdom.  The  County  Coui .  magistrates,  with  their 
judicial  functions,  are  also  entrusted  with  a  portion  of  the  Executive  powers.  These 
magistrates  are  scattered  m  neighborhoods,  nearly  equally,  throughout  the  whole 
State  :  Each  of  them  possessing  a  degree  of  moral  influence  in  his  own  neighborhood, 
which,  with  his  official  influence,  when  combined  together,  forms  the  strongest  Ex- 
ecutive in  the  world. 

Hence,  the  celebrity  of  Virginia,  for  obedience  to  law.  Hence,  it  has  been  so  fre- 
quently and  emphatically  said,  that  laic  is  the  only  despot  here.  Here  is  seen  an  ex- 
ception of  the  common  maxim  of  an  unity  of  the  Executive,  and  is  exhibited  at  the 
same  time  the  most  nmnerous  and  most  efficient  Executive  in  the  world  :  substituting 
for  physical  force,  in  a  single  hand,  its  moral  and  official  influence  combined:  acting 
more  upon  the  affections,  than  upon  the  fears  of  the  people.  Another  pecuharity  of 
this  organization,  is.  that  the  magistrates  are  totally  destitute  of  compensation  or  re- 
ward, while  acting  in  their  Judicial  and  Executive  capacities.  Their  only  perquisite 
is  their  monopoly  of  the  Sheriffalty,  and  it  is  now  proposed  to  deprive  them  of  even 
that  inadequate  chance  of  compensation.  Even  that  compensation  is  never  received 
in  their  Judicial  capacity  :  and  this  is  one  of  the  peculiar  merits  of  the  system.  Jus- 
tice being  thus  administered  freely,  without  reward,  tends  to  keep  its  current  pure 
and  unpolluted.  We  received  our  County  Court  system  directly  from  our  Anglo- 
Saxon  ancestors,  but  it  may  be  traced  back  more  than  1500  years  from  the  present 
time,  and  beyond  the  period  when  the  Saxon  became  converted  into  the  Anglo-Saxon, 
During  that  loner  period  of  time,  and  auiidst  all  the  fluctuations  of  human  affairs,  it 
has  been  attended  with  the  happiest  effects. 

He  had  tliought  proper  thus  to  present  to  the  Committee,  this  mere  outhne  view  of 
the  subject,  but  it  was  far  from  being  exhausted,  and  he  greatly  feared  that  he  had  fallen 
far  short  of  its  merits.    He  hoped,  however,  that  he  had  in  some  deofrse  rescued  the 

31 


242 


DEBATES   or   THE  CONVENTION. 


Virginia  Conatitution,  from  the  unmerited  imputations  throv/n  against  it ;  and  that 
he  had  proved  it  to  be  founded  on  the  true  principles  of  pohtical  science. 

He  would  now  accept  the  invitations  of  several  gentlemen,  to  enquire  into  the 
condition  of  man,  previous  to  a  state  ©f  society,"  about  which  he  found  some  dif- 
ferences of  opinion.  He  observed  he  was  placed  in  a  singular  dilemma.  He  felt  him- 
self compelled  to  agree  with  gentlemen  in  their  premises  on  one  side  of  the  question, 
and  to  differ  with  them  in  their  conclusions  ;  whilst  he  agreed  with  gentlemen  on  the 
other  side  in  their  conclusions,  and  differed  with  them  in  their  premises.  Although 
he  was  charmed  with  the  eloquence  of  his  worthy  colleague  (Mr.  Leigh  of  Chester- 
field,) and  of  the  hon.  gentleman  from  Northampton  (Mr.  Upshur,)  he  was  reluctantly 
compelled  to  differ  with  them,  in  the  opinion,  that  there  never  existed  a  state  of  na- 
ture ;  whilst  he  concurred  with  them  in  the  conclusion,  that  majorities  had  no  right 
to  govern,  but  that  derived  from  the  social  compact.  At  the  same  time,  notwithstand- 
ing he  concurred  with  the  hon.  gentleman  from  Loudoun  (Mr.  Mercer,)  who  had  dis- 
played all  his  powers  of  reasoning,  calling  to  his  aid  all  the  brilliancy  of  oriental  ima- 
gery on  this  occasion,  in  the  opinion  that  man  had  existed  in  a  state  of  nature,  he 
nevertheless  felt  himself  constrained  to  dissent  from  the  conclusion,  that  majorities 
had  necessarily  a  right  to  govern  in  such  a  state.  Mr.  G.  said,  he  would  tell  a  plain 
tale,  and  his  only  effort  would  be  to  be  understood.  He  believed  there  was  a  state  of 
nature,  and  that  it  was  susceptible  of  proof,  both  from  history  and  from  the  reason  and 
nature  of  things.  A  single  fact  and  remark  only,  he  conceived,  ought  to  be  sufficient 
to  satisfy  every  reflecting  mind,  that  there  must  have  been  some  condition  of  man 
previous  to  his  social  condition.  All  admit  that  the  social  compact  was  made  by  men 
■ — by  numbers  of  men.  Prlan,  therefore,  must  have  preceded  the  social  compact.  If 
so,  in  what  state  was  he  ?  Surely  in  that  state  which  has  generally  been  designated  a 
state  of  nature.  He  believed  there  was  an  intermediate  state  between  the  two.  It 
might  be  called  the  domestic  or  family  state  of  man.  If  so,  both  the  natural  and  fa- 
mily state  of  man  must  have  preceded  the  social.  Although  the  hon.  gentleman  from 
Northampton,  had  partially  denied  the  existence  of  a  state  of  nature,  and  had  referred 
to  Bible  history  on  that  point,  he  had,  however,  admitted  that  the  social  compact  was 
grounded  on  a  feeling  of  property.  This  is  admitted  as  one  ground,  but  it  is  denied 
that  it  is  the-  principal  or  the  strongest  ground.  Whence  was  this  feeling  of  property 
derived  ?  It  could  only  be  from  a  right  of  property  and  a  sense  of  that  right.  He  in- 
sisted that  the  social  compact  was  founded  more  in  a  feeling  of  weakness  and  of  want. 
This  feeling  was  so  strong,  as  to  amount  to  an  absolute  necessity  for  entering  into  the 
social  compact.  In  his  reference  to  the  Bible  history,  the  hon.  gentleman  had  given 
some  account  of  the  subjection  of  Eve  to  Adam,  and  of  the  condition  of  that  family, 
at  the  early  period  of  their  creation.  The  hon.  gentleman  should  have  extended  his 
historical  researches  somewhat  further,  and  he  would  have  found  that  they  abundantly 
proved,  not  only  the  right  and  possession  of  property  in  a  state  of  nature,  but  also  the 
existence  of  a  domestic  or  family  condition  of  m^an.  He  would  have  found,  that  Cain 
and  Abel  both  made  offerings  to  the  Lord.  The  one,  the  first  fruits  of  his  land  and 
labour — the  other  the  firstlings  of  the  flocks  he  tended.  Abel's  offering  was  most  ac- 
ceptable to  the  Lord,  but  the  right  of  property  was  not  denied  by  any  one — the  right 
being  derived  from  occupancy  and  labour,  and  sanctioned  by  the  innate  or  moral  sense 
of  man,  ascertained  by  common  consent.  Mr.  G.  said,  we  were  apt  to  fall  into  errors 
for  want  of  due  reflections  upon  the  longevity  of  the  anti-deluvians,  compared  with 
the  little  span  of  life  permitted  to  the  present  race  of  man.  To  avoid  such  errors,  he 
had  made  enquiries  as  to  the  age  of  Cain,  at  the  time  he  committed  the  bloody  murder 
upon  his  brother — and  he  had  found  that  Cain  was  at  that  time,  a  mere  lad  approaching 
to  puberty,  but  had  not  yet  once  thought  of  matrimony,  although  he  had  reached  the 
age  of  one  hundred  and  twenty-eight  years,  and  his  brother  Abel  one  hundred  and 
twenty-seven.  Here,  then,  is  complete  evidence  of  a  state  of  nature — at  least  one 
hundred  and  twenty-eight  years  after  the  creation.  The  right  of  property  being  un- 
questioned in  each  of  them,  and  there  being  no  one  to  punish  Cain  for  his  bloody 
crime — Adam  having  relinquished  all  parental  authority  over  him.  God,  however, 
took  Cain  into  hand,  put  a  mark  upon  him,  and  sent  him  into  the  land  of  Nod,  where, 
it  is  said,  he  married  a  wife  and  built  a  city.  Should  there  be  any  sceptics  bold  enough 
to  doubt  the  account  given  by  the  sacred  historian,  from  a  suspicion  that  there  were 
other  families  existing  at  the  time  of  Adam,  of  which  the  sacred  historian  was  unap- 
prised, Mr.  G.  would  reply,  that  presuming  that  to  be  the  case,  the  account  given  of 
the  family  of  Adam,  would  form  the  Natural  History  of  any  other  family  w^hich  might 
be  in  existence,  previous  to  the  social  compact,  (For  Cain's  age  at  the  time  of  the 
death  of  Abel,  see  Rees'  Cyclopedia,  corresponding  upon  this  point  with  Lemprier's 
Chronological  table  prefixed  to  his  Classical  Dictionary.) 

Mr.  G.  said,  he  was  of  opinion,  that  there  had  been  such  a  state,  as  a  state  of  nature  ; 
and  that  man  had  been  driven  from  that  state  by  the  wants  of  nature.  Indeed,  that  all 
creation  was  founded  upon  a  principle  of  relative  dependance ;  and  man  rendered 
more  dependant  than  any  other  animal — clearly  manifesting  thereby,  a  Providential 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


243 


intention  to  drive  him  from  a  solitary,  to  a  social  state.  The  same  principle  of  rela- 
tive dependance,  is  observable  amongst  nations,  as  well  as  individuals,  and  is  the  trne 
foundation  of  commerce.  The  mischiefs  arisincffrom  the  mistaken,  barbarous  notion 
of  the  positive  independence  of  nations,  introduced  into  the  practical  Government,  by 
our  late  miserable  and  incompetent  rulers,  have  been  incalculable.  Yes,  Sir,  greater 
than  could  be  compensated  for,  in  all  time,  by  the  same  deluded,  unfortunate  pohtical 
economists,  if  their  lives  were  prolonged  to  the  age  of  ^Nlethusaleh,  and  spent  in  the 
performance  of  good  instead  of  evil  deeds.  Their  miserable  cabalistical  false  misno- 
mers or  nick-names — ••'National  Industry;"  "Domestic  Industry;"'  "Home  Mar- 
ket;" Protection  of  Manufa.ctures;"  and  above  all,  the  •'•American  System/'  he  verily 
believed,  had  each  of  them  cost  the  State  of  Virginia  above  1,000,000  of  dollars,  since 
the  year  1816 ;  and  he  was  confident  that  every  gentleman  would  come  to  the  same 
result,  who  would  take  the  trouble  to  make  the  calculation  from  correct  premises. 

Whilst  he  admitted  a  state  of  nature,  he  denied  that  majorities  had  a.nj  influence  in 
such  state.  Whence  the  derivation  of  the  term  Sovereign  People?"  Sm^ely  from 
man  in  a  state  of  nature,  v^-here  he  was  his  own  sovereign.  If  he  were  not  sovereign 
there,  he  was  sovereign  no  where.  If  he  were  sovereign  there,  then  we  have  the 
basis  of  his  subsequent  sovereignty.  This  seems  to  him  to  be  a  self-evident  proposi- 
tion. This  enquiry  leads  to  another  more  important  one — to  ascertain  what  are  tlie 
duties  of  Government;  and  what  is  the  object  of  the  social  compact  ?  He  would  cor- 
rect the  expression.  What  is  the  object  of  the  social  compact,  and  what  the  objects 
in  the  formation  of  every  free,  legitimate  Government Exclusive  of  tire  public  safety, 
one  object  is  the  protection  of  persons,  the  other  the  protection  of  property.  Govern- 
ment was  instituted  for  the  protection  of  all  hmxian  rights  :  adequate  powers  ouo-ht, 
therefore,  to  be  given  to  the  Government,  to  ensure  the  protection  both  of  persons,  and 
of  property.  A  question,  then,  arises,  how  much  power  ought  to  be  given  ?  Is  it  to  be  un- 
limited power  over  all  the  rights  of  man  ?  If  so.  all  his  natural  rights  must  be  taken  from 
him.  If  only  a  portion  of  his  rights  are  to  be  taken,  vrhat  portion  How  can  the  Gov- 
ernment be  so  organized  as  to  make  a  distribution  of  rights  between  the  individual  in  his 
native  character,  andthe  Government  in  its  corporate  character  ?  Here  a  question  arises; 
ouffht  a  Governmentto  be  an  active,  or  a  passive  machine  ?  If  Government  be  an  active 
machine,  you  must  give  all  the  requisite  powers  and  properties  which  belong  to  an  un- 
limited Government.  If  it  be  a  passive  machine,  less  power  is  necessary,  and  the 
only  difhculties  v»-ill  be  found  in  the  proper  distribution  of  rights  between  the  gover- 
nors and  governed.  Upon  this  important  point,  differences  of  opinion  exist.  There 
are  some  gentlemen  who  claim  for  the  General  Government,  the  whole  proceeds  of 
the  labour  of  the  nation,  as  the  great  desideratum  of  its  political  economy.  If  so,  in 
vain  do  we  sit  here  ;  m  vain  are  we  here,  if  the  proceeds  of  all  labour  must  be  given 
up  to  the  General  Government,  not  leaving  even  a  modicum  for  ourselves,  as  the 
basis  of  our  Constitution.  Presuming,  then,  that  Government  is  to  be  formed  by  a 
distribution  of  the  natural  rights  of  individuals  between  themselves,  and  the  Gov- 
ernment, what  portion  ought  to  be  given  to  the  Government Surely  the  smallest 
portion  which  will  sufSce  for  governmental  purposes.  If  all  be  given,  none  of  course 
can  be  left  to  the  management  of  the  individual.  He  had  bestowed  much  reflection 
upon  the  inquiry,  as  to  that  portion  of  rights,  which  should  be  surrendered  to  the 
Government,  and  that  which  should  be  retained  to  the  individual.  Perhaps  the  most 
effectual  mode  of  ascertaining  this  point,  would  be  to  enquire  what  rig-hts  of  nature, 
man,  in  his  individual  capacity,  can  manage  better  than  the  Government,  and  what 
portion  Government  can  manage  better  than  the  individual.  From  all  his  reflections 
upon  the  subject,  he  had  concluded  that  there  were  but  two  descriptions  of  rights, 
which  the  Government  can  manage  better  than  the  individual.  One  is,  the  right  of 
every  individual  to  do  himself  justice  in  his  natural  state  ;  the  other,  the  smallest  por- 
tion of  property  that  will  suffice  for  governmental  purposes.  It  will  be  perceived, 
that  an  exact  distribution  of  rights,  according  to  the  preceding  rule,  m^ust  necessarily 
approach  nearly  to  the  production  of  a  perfect  Commonwealth.  Here  is  opened  a 
still  wider  field  for  extending  the  researches  of  all  lovers  of  political  science.  He  had 
liimself  concluded,  that  all  riglits,  of  every  description,  which  individual  man  could 
manage  at  all,  he  could  manage,  and  vrould  manage  better  than  the  Govermnent ;  and 
the  degree  of  liberty  enjoyed  by  him,  would  depend  upon  the  greatest  portion  of  these 
rights,  left  to  his  own  management.  The  only  reason  wh}^  an}-  rights  should  be  given 
to  Government,  arises  from  the  incapacity  of  man  to  execute  them  by  his  own 
means.  He  has  not  power  to  do  justice  to  himself  in  a  state  of  nature,  because  he 
will  necessarily  be  brought  in  conflict  with  others,  and  he  will  be  compelled  to  aban- 
don that  power  merely  from  his  incapacity  to  execute  it.  Hence,  a  portion  of  power 
must  be  given  to  Government  to  enable  it  to  do,  what  the  individual  cannot  do. 
Hence,  the  necessity  for  any  concession  of  povrer,  and  he  thought  that  no  concession 
ought  to  extend  beyond  the  right  of  doino-  justice,  and  the  surrender  of  that  portion 
of  property,  which  is  found  indispensable  for  defi-aying  the  expenses  of  Government. 
In  that  case,  Government  would  be  a  passive  machine,  ensuring  liberty  and  safety  to 


244 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


the  people — rendering  justice  to  all.  Mr.  Giles  could  not  help  expressing  his  surprise, 
that  several  gentlemen,  and  amongst  the  rest,  the  gentleman  from  Brooke,  who  seemed 
to  be  most  desirous  of  great  changes  in  the  Constitution,  after  throwing  the  most  se- 
rious imputations  against  it,  had  resorted  to  the  Bill  of  Rights  as  the  consummation 
of  human  wisdom,  and  insisted  upon  the  observance  of  the  rules  there  laid  down  by 
the  present  Convention,  particularly  the  first  three  articles;  and  some  of  them  have 
also  called  to  their  aid  the  15th  article,  with  the  practical  commentary  upon  them  in 
the  Constitution  itself;  and  the  gentleman  from  Brooke,  had  gone  so  far  as  to  assert 
that  in  demanding  a  free  white  basis  of  representation,  he  demanded  nothing  new 
under  the  sun.  It  was  the  slave-holding  minority,  who  were  demanding  a  new  thing 
under  the  sun.  The  following  are  the  gentleman's  own  words  :  "  He,  (Mr.  Doddridge) 
therefore,  concluded  that,  in  demanding  a  free  white  basis  of  representation,  he  and 
those  who  acted  with  him,  were  asking  no  new  thing  under  the  sun;  but  were  for- 
warding a  principle  already  existing  and  recognized ;  principles  deeply  founded  in  the 
nature  and  necessities  of  society.  It  was  the  slave-holding  minority  who  were  de- 
manding a  new  thing."  Here  the  gentleman  admits  that  he  is  demanding  something, 
and  that  thing,  a  change  ;  he  yet  denies  that  this  change  is  a  new  thmg  under  the 
sun,  and  proceeds  to  charge  the  slave-holders  with  demanding  a  new  thing  under  the 
sun,  whilst  they  demand  nothing  at  all.  under  the  sun,  neither  new  nor  old,  but  are 
perfectly  content  with  the  Constitution  in  that  respect  as  it  now  stands.  Mr.  G.  said, 
he  was  willing  to  be  governed  by  the  Bill  of  Rights  according  to  his  interpretation  of 
it.  The  Bill  of  Rights  detracted  nothing  from  the  Constitution  by  preceding  it,  and 
he  deemed  it  an  essential  part  of  the  Constitution.  Permit  me,  said  Mr.  Giles,  to 
turn  to  the  sections  to  which  gentlemen  invited  our  attention.    The  first  article  is : 

"  That  all  men  are  by  nature  equally  free  and  independent,  and  have  certain  inhe- 
rent rights,  of  which,  when  they  enter  into  a  state  of  society,  they  cannot,  by  any 
compact,  deprive  or  divest  their  posterity ;  namely,  the  enjoyment  of  life  and  liberty, 
with  the  means  of  acquiring  and  possessing  property,  and  pursuing  and  obtaining 
happiness  and  safety." 

The  eloquent  and  learned  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  read  to  us  a  number  of  Con- 
stitutions, and  particularly  that  of  Massachusetts,  in  the  formation  of  which  he  told 
us,  the  Convention  sat  in  deliberation  for  months. 

He  (Mr.  G.)  had  already  read  the  first  article  of  the  Virginia  Bill  of  Rights.  Let 
us  look  at  the  comparative  merits  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  of  Virginia  and  Massachu- 
setts. The  first  article  of  the  Massachusetts  Bill  of  Rights  says,  that  "  all  men  are 
born  free  and  equal."  He  denied  this  to  be  true,  either  in  law  or  in  fact;  while  he 
agreed  that all  men  are  by  iiature  equally  free  and  independent."  The  condition  of 
man,  from  free  to  bond,  or  from  bond  to  free,  is  changed  by  municipal  or  conventional, 
and  recognized  by  international  law.  Slaves  are  born  slaves  before  us  every  day, 
which  directly  disproves  the  assertion,  that  all  men  are  horn  free  and  equal."  Yet 
the  Constitution  of  Massachusetts  unequivocally  asserts,  that  all  men  are  born  equally 
free.  Are  slaves  born  free  ?  No.  And  if  an  enquiry  be  made  as  to  the  means,  by 
which  their  condition  is  changed,  the  answer  is,  by  municipal  law — by  conventional 
law — by  force — or  by  conquest.  Upon  what  authority  do  we  hold  Africans  in  bond- 
age Surely,  by  the  municipal  laws  of  that  country,  recognized  by  international 
law.  Slavery  was  not  only  recognized  by  international  law,  but  it  was  acknowledged 
by  the  law  of  God,  if  the  scriptures  may  be  deemed  sufficient  evidence  of  that  law. 
As  to  matter  of  fact  and  of  law,  directly  the  reverse  of  the  declaration  in  the 
Massachusetts  Bill  of  Rights,  is  the  universal  legal  maxim,  '■'■partus  sequitur  vm- 
trem" — the  offspring  follows  the  condition  of  the  mother. 

This  Constitution  is  presented  to  us  as  a  model  of  excellence  for  our  imitation, 
which  declares  that  the  bond  are  not  born  bond,  which  is  not  true — in  preference  to 
our  own,  which  asserts  the  truth,  that  "  all  men  are  by  nature  free."  And  this  strange 
preference  has  been  strangely  attributed  to  a  greater  degree  of  deliberation  in  the  one 
case  than  in  the  other.  He  observed  that  this  clause  in  the  Bill  of  Rights  contained 
another  important  declaration,  that  man  possesses  the  means  of  "  acquiring  and  pos- 
sessing property"  in  a  state  of  nature,  thereby  clearly  sanctioning  the  existence  of 
such  a  state.    The  second  section  is  in  the  following  words : 

"That  all  power  is  vested  in,  and  consequently  derived  from,  the  people ;  that 
Magistrates  are  their  trustees  and  servants,  and  at  all  times  amenable  to  them." 

This  section  contains  the  great  declaratory  principle  in  direct  hostility  to  the  basis 
upon  which  all  pre-existing  Governments  were  founded  ;  that  "  all  power  is  derived 
from  the  people" — and  that  Magistrates  are  the  servants  of  the  people — and  affords  the 
first  great  example  of  reducing  that  principle  to  use  in  the  affairs  of  mankind.  It 
meets  my  most  hearty  approbation,  and  exalted  admiration.    The  third  section  is : 

"  That  Government  is,  or  ought  to  be,  instituted  for  the  common  benefit,  protection 
and  security,  of  the  people,  nation,  or  community  :  of  all  the  various  modes  and 
forms  of  Government,  that  is  best,  which  i.s  capable  of  producing  the  greatest  degree 
of  happiness  and  safety,  and  is  most  effectually  secured  against  the  danger  of  mal- 


DEBATES    OF   THJl  CONTENTION. 


245 


administration;  and  that ,  irhm  nvy  Go-cernment  shall  le  fouiid  inadequate  or  contrary 
to  these  purposes,  a  m-ajor'  oniiiianity  liath  an  indubilahle,  unuliejmble,  and  in- 

defeasible rio-ht,  to  refor/n .  (LboLisk  it  An  such  manner  as  shall  be  judged  most 

condacice  to  the  public  vccu-l. 

His  wort  iv  colleao-e,  (Mr.  Leigh)  had  so  fully  explained  his  views  on  one  branch  of 
this  subject"  and  particularly  on'the  clause,  omitted  by  the  gentleman  who  had  intro- 
duced tliis  section,  that  he  considered  all  repetition  superfluous.  This  section  clearly 
proves  that  conditions  are  imposed  upon  majorities.  His  colleague  had  pointed  out 
one,  he  would  point  out  another.  Whilst  the  majority  have  a  right  to  alter,  reform, 
or  abolish  the  Government,  there  is  no  right  conferred  on  them  to  do  so,  according  to 
their  own  unhmited.  capricious  will.  An  obligation  is  imposed  upon  them,  to  act  ■•  in 
such  manner  as  sliaU  be  judged  most  conducive  to  the  public  weal."  This  is  the 
verv  business  we  are  now  engaged  in  performing — to  alter,  amend,  or  abolish  the 
Coii-tiTuti  iu.  in  such  manner,  as  we  shall  judge  most  conducive  to  the  public 
weal.  ri  .rely  we  should  feel  ourselves  restrained  by  this  clause  from  injuring,  or 
even  putting  at  hazard,  any  local  or  particular  interest,  even  should  it  be  the  interest 
of  the  minoritv.  Mr.  G.  called  the  attention  of  the  Committee  to  that  clause  in  the 
Bill  of  Pvights'.  which  required  a  permanent  attachment  to  ihe  community,  as  a  quali- 
fication for  voting,  and  asserted  that  the  word  -  permanent'  was  introduced  with  refer- 
ence exclusively  to  land,  nothing  being  deemed  permanent  but  land  :  and  the  provi- 
sion in  the  Constitution,  which  requires,  that  the  Right  of  SutFrage  should  remain  as 
it  then  was — being  the  freehold  Rigiit  of  SsulFrage,  was  the  practical  commentary  of 
the  framers  of  our  Constitution,  upon  the  word  '■  pervianeixf  in  the  Bill  of  Pvights. 
This  demonstrably  proves  that  there  is  no  discrepancy  whatever  between  the  two  in- 
struments. 

Some  orentlemen  plumed  themselves  upon  a  notion  that  our  forefathers  had  earnestly 
invited  us  to  a  frequent  recurrence  to  fundamental  principles,  with  a  view,  as  they 
suppose,  to  chansfe  those  principles.  This  notion  they  had  derived  from  the  15th  sec- 
tion, in  the  following  words  : 

That  no  free  Government,  or  the  blessing  of  liberty,  can  be  preserved  to  any 
people,  but  bv  a  firm  adherence  to  justice,  moderation,  temperance,  frugality,  and  vir- 
tue, and  bj'  frequent  recurrence  to  fundamental  principles." 

Why  recur  to  fundamental  principles  :  If  these  principles  were  true  at  that  time, 
they  are  true  now.  Fundamental  principles  are  eterned  and  unchangeable.  Could 
our  forefathers  invite  us  to  recur  to  fundamental  principles,  for  the  purpose  of  chang- 
ing unchangeable  things  t  But,  if  this  were  not  the  object,  what  could  the  object  be 
for  inviting  a  frequent  recurrence  to  fundamental  principles  t  Evidently  for  the  pur- 
pose of  watchinor  the  proceedings  of  the  practical  Government,  and  to  draw  them 
back  from  their  aberrations,  if  any  they  had  committed,  to  these  great  fundamental 
principles.  It  was  not  his  intention  to  have  referred  to  the  General  Government,  if 
it  had  been  possible  to  avoid  it,  notwithstanding  its  intimate  connection  with  the  State 
Governments,  and  its  even  constituting  a  part  of  them.  But  he  found  it  impossible 
to  avoid  it.  It  would  be  all  important,  if  we  could  prevail  on  that  Government  to 
recur  to  fundamental  principles.  Such  had  been  its  monstrous  aberrations  from  the 
fundamental  principles  of  the  Federal  Constitution,  that  they  v.-ere  violated  every 
day.  Scarce  a  semblance  of  its  most  important,  original  features  remained.  After 
he  had  been  absent  from  the  Government  for  some  time,  when  he  returned  to  it.  he 
was  astonished  at  the  new-fangled  nomenclature,  which  was  introduced  in  substitu- 
tion of  the  old  Governmental  phraseology  :  one  efi'ect  of  which  was  a  splendid  Gov- 
ernment which  the  people  are  made  to  feel.  How  important  then,  would  it  be.  C'^uld 
we  prevail  on  this  Government  to  have  recurrence  to  original,  fundamental  princi- 
ples. Instead  of  a  splendid  Government,  which  the  people  are  now  made  to  feel,  we 
should  then  have  a  hippy  Government  which  they  could  not  feel.  He  feared  he  had 
detained  the  Committee  very  unprofitably  in  presenting  to  their  view  mere  general 
propositions  without  any  attempt  at  minute,  logical  demonstrations.  Those  he  left 
to  the  intelligence  of  the  Committee.  He  would  now  examine  some  points  of  difier- 
ence  between  himself  and  other  gentlemen  more  especially,  and  as  far  as  possible, 
would  avoid  repetitions.  He  would  come  to  consider  tlie  actual  difierence  of  local 
interests  as  regards  the  slave  population.  The  point  is,  whether  there  shall  be  anv 
special  provision  for  this  local  interest. 

Mr.  Giles  was  proceeding  to  remark  on  the  argument  of  the  gentleman  from  Lou- 
doun. (Mr.  Mercer)  with  respect  to  the  salt- works  of  New  TorlT,  and  to  deduce  from 
it  a  confirmation  of  the  views  of  the  gentleman  from  Orange,  Qsh.  P.  P.  Bar- 
bour) with  respect  to  those  cases  where  a  minority  governs  a  majority ;  when 

Mr.  Taylor  (of  Chesterfield)  rose,  and  moved  that  the  Committee  rise,  in  order  to 
give  his  colleague  another  opportunity  of  presenting  his  views  to  the  Committee, 
which,  as  he  was  then  considerably  fatigued,  he  could  do  more  to  his  satisfaction  and 
ease. 


246 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  Giles  expressed  his  willingness  to  proceed,  although  he  was  much  exhausted, 
rather  than  protract  the  business  of  the  Conimitlee.  He  was  willing  to  strain  every 
power,  physical  and  mental,  he  possessed,  to  continue  his  remarks. 

The  motion  that  the  Committee  rise  was  then  put  and  carried,  and  the  Conven- 
tion adjourned. 


TUESDAY,  November  10,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  eleven  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev. 
Mr.  Sykes  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

According  to  the  standing  order,  the  House  went  into  Committee  of  the  Whole, 
Mr.  Powell  in  the  Chair. 

Mr.  Giles  then  rose  in  continuation  of  his  remarks.  He  said,  that  he  had  never, 
at  any  period  of  his  life,  been  in  the  habit  of  complaining,  and  as  little  now  as  ever, 
but  it  was  only  common  justice  to  himself  to  state  that  he  had  risen  yesterday,  under 
a  sense  of  debility  so  paralyzing,  that  he  feared  he  would  not  be  able  to  controul  the 
operations  of  his  own  mind,  nor  to  command  that  portion  of  physical  strength  which 
was  requisite  to  sustain  him  through  the  task  he  had  before  him.  This  naturally  pro- 
duced some  delay  and  confusion  both  in  his  manner,  and  in  the  course  which  he  had 
prescribed  for  his  own  government.  When  he  tirst  rose,  he  had  intended  to  read  se- 
veral extracts,  but  soon  found  himself  compelled  to  change  that  determination,  and 
to  avoid  reading  as  much  as  possible  ;  being  aware  that  reading  tends  much  more  to 
debilitate,  than  even  the  effort  of  speaking.  He  had  intended  to  have  read  some  of 
those  extracts  in  relation  to  the  first  point  which  he  had  yesterday  brought  into  dis- 
cussion: he  alluded  to  the  remarks  which  had  fallen  from  the  venerable  gentleman 
from  Loudoun  (Mr.  Monroe)  respecting  the  emancipation  of  slaves.  This  was  a  sub- 
ject of  such  peculiar  delicacy,  that  it  was  proper  to  present  to  the  Committee  the 
character  of  the  existing  relations,  in  respect  to  jurisdiction  over  slaves  between  the 
General  and  State  Governments.  He  thought  it  proper  now  to  complete  what  he  had 
yesterday  intended. 

The  General  Government,  at  all  times,  from  the  first  Congress,  had  disclaimed  all 
sort  of  jurisdiction  over  the  emancipation  or  the  management  of  slaves  ;  and  thus 
jurisdiction,  in  both  cases,  was  peremptorily  denied  to  the  General  Government.  He 
intended  to  have  introduced  the  Journal  of  the  twenty-first  session  first  Congress,  but 
as  it  was  not  before  him,  he  would  state  from  his  recollection,  what  the  resolution 
contained  in  the  Journal  upon  that  point  was.  The  resolution  went  to  disclaim  on 
the  part  of  the  General  Government,  all  jurisdiction  over  the  emancipation  or  treat- 
ment of  slaves.  This  resolution  was  entered  on  the  Journal,  as  declaratory  at  that 
time,  of  the  true  interpretation  of  the  Constitution  ;  and  at  that  day  such  an  excite- 
ment existed  among  the  Southern  members  against  having  the  subject  even  mentioned, 
that  they  voted  against  this  declaratory  resolution.  The  honorable  and  venerable 
gentleman  who  is  a  member  of  this  Convention,  and  who  was  then  a  member  of 
Congress,  he  meant  the  gentleman  from  Orange,  voted  decidedly  in  favor  of  it. 
This  was  the  mere  declaratory  act  of  one  House  ;  but  in  consequence  of  it  two  bills 
were  passed,  either  at  that  or  at  some  subsequent  session,  prohibiting  the  citizens  of 
the  United  States  from  interfering  with  the  slave  trade,  for  the  purpose  of  supplying 
foreign  nations  with  slaves. 

Mr.  G.  then  referred  to  a  memorial,  which  was  presented  to  Congress  by  the  repre- 
sentatives of  several  societies  of  Quakers.  He  happened  to  be  a  member  of  the 
Committee,  to  whom  the  subject  was  referred.  He  had  relied  on  the  declaratory  re- 
solution, in  the  negotiation  which  he  had  to  carry  on  with  the  Quakers.  All  the 
Committee  were,  in  principle,  in  favor  of  the  measure  ;  but  it  was  his  duty  to  satisfy 
these  persons,  that  Congress  had  no  right  to  interfere  with  the  subject  of  slavery  at 
all.  He  was  fortunate  enouo-h  to  satisfy  the  Quakers,  and  they  agreed,  that  if  Con- 
gress would  pass  a  law,  to  prohibit  the  citizens  of  the  United  States  from  supplying 
foreign  nations  with  slaves,  they  would  pledge  themselves  and  the  respective  societies 
they  represented,  never  again  to  trouble  Congress  on  the  subject.  The  law  did  pass, 
and  the  Quakers  adhered  to  their  agreement.  He  did  not  know  whether  or  not  the 
documents,  on  the  subject  of  this  negotiation,  were  still  in  existence  ;  but  he  believed 
they  had  been  filed  away  with  other  papers. 

Subsequently,  an  Act  was  passed,  prohibiting  the  introduction  of  slaves  into  the 
United  States,  in  which  this  principle  was  again  touched,  in  a  more  specific,  but  a 
different  form.  It  was  again  his  fortune  to  be  on  the  Committee  to  whom  that  subject 
was  referred,  and  he  drew  up  two  provisos  to  a  bill  then  pending  before  Congress,  for 
prohibiting  the  introduction  of  slaves  into  the  United  States  after  the  year  1807; 
the  object  of  which,  was  to  draw  a  distinct  line  of  demarcation,  between  the  powers 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


247 


of  CoiiD-ress,  for  prolubitinof  the  introduction  of  slaves  in  the  United  States,  and  those 
of  the  indi^T-dual  States  and  territories.  It  was  then  decided,  by  an  unanimous  vote, 
that  vrhen  slaves  were  brougiit  within  the  limits  of  any  State,  tlie  power  of  Congress 
over  them  ceased,  and  the  power  of  the  Slate  began,  the  moment  they  became  within 
those  limits.  He  would  beg  leave  to  refer  to  these  provisos.  He  would  read  as  little 
as  possible  ;  but  recent  events  made  it  important  to  revive  the  recollection  of  these 
facts,  which  appear  strangely  to  have  been  forgotten.  He  had  drawn  up  these  pro- 
visos with  all  imaginable  care. 

The  first  proviso,  after  the  powers  of  Congress  to  a  certain  extent  had  been  de- 
clared, and  the  words  therein  w^ere  critically  examined — and,  indeed,  he  might  say, 
not  only  every  word,  but  every  syllable,  and  even  every  stop,  by  the  best  talents 
wliich  Cono-ress  could  afford,  be  found — proceeded  thus  :  "  And  neither  the  impor- 
ter, nor  any  person,  or  persons,  claiming  from,  or  under  him,  shall  hold  any  right  or 
title  %vhatever,  to  any  negro,  mulatto,  or  person  of  colour,  nor  to  tire  service  or  labour 
thereof,  who  may  be  imported,  or  brought  into  the  United  States,  or  territories,  in 
violation  of  this  law  :  but  the  same  shall  remain  subject  to  any  regulations,  not  con- 
travening the  provisions  of  this  Act.  which  the  Legislatures  of  the  several  States  or 
territories,  at  anv  time  hereafter,  may  make,  for  disposing  of  an}'  such  negro,  mulatto, 
or  person  of  colour.'' 

This  was  then  considered  as  a  legislative  interpretation  of  the  Constitution,  as  may 
be  seen  by  its  phraseology.  It  disclaimed  all  power  over  slavery,  in  all  time  to  come. 
But  it  did'  not  stop  there.  The  power  vras  not  only  relinquished  to  the  States,  but  also 
to  the  territories,  to  wit :  the  unlimited  jurisdiction  over  all  the  slaves  brought  witiiin 
their  limits  respectively. 

The  second  proviso  is  in  the  following  terms  :  Provided,  that  the  aforesaid  for- 
feiture, shall  not  extend  to  the  seller,  or  purchaser,  of  any  negro,  mulatto,  or  person 
of  colour,  who  may  be  sold,  or  disposed  of,  in  virtue  of  any  regulation  which  may 
hereafter  be  made,  by  any  of  the  Legislatures  of  the  several  States,  in  that  respect, 
in  pursuance  of  this  Act,  and  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States."' 

Here,  then,  in  these  declaratory  provisions  of  the  Act,  there  is  an  explicit  demar- 
cation of  the  boundary  line  between  the  power  of  Congress,  and  of  the  Legislatures 
of  the  several  States  and  territories.    The  Committee  would  observe  that  the  word 

territories"  was  omitted  in  the  last  proviso.  An  abstract  right  is  admitted  to  the 
territories  in  the  first  proviso,  but  the  word  territories  was  not  used  in  the  second 
proviso,  Congress  having  had  a  revisory  power  over  the  laws  of  the  territories,  and 
were  unwilling  to  yield  that  power.  The  word  was  therefore  omitted,  but  the  right 
in  the  territories  was  recognized  to  exercise  exclusive  power  over  slaves,  within  their 
limits.  He  had  understood  that  the  Legislature  of  South  Carolina,  passed  a  law  on 
the  subject,  and  the  State  of  Georgia  assumed  similar  jurisdiction,  in  consequence  of 
this  law  of  Congress.  This  had  led  to  two  results — first,  the  admission  on  the  part  of 
Congress,  that  tlie  State  Governments  are  vested  with  the  authority  to  declare  persons 
within  their  limits,  slaves  ;  and  second,  the  exercise  of  that  authority,  by  the  State 
Governments. 

This  brought  him  to  the  consideration  of  the  proceedings  which  have  lately  taken 
place  in  the  State  of  Ohio,  and  wliich  had  been  very  properly  referred  to  by  several 
gentlemen  in  this  debate.  It  appears  that  Ohio,  acting  under  a  mistaken  zeal,  amoun- 
ting to  a  fanatic  desire,  to  meliorate  the  evils  of  slavery,  mvited  a  number  of  those 
unfortunate  persons  to  take  refuge  in  that  State.  Some  remarks  appeared  in  the 
newspapers,  some  years  since,  in  regard  to  the  State  of  Ohio,  in  which  was  sus'gested 
the  possibility  that  in  some  future  capricious  mood,  she  might  convert  the  coloured 
persons,  who  had  been  induced  to  enter  her  limits,  into  slaves,  and  that  this  she  might 
do,  because  Congress  had  no  right  to  prevent  it.  The  remarks  to  which  he  referred, 
were  as  follow : 

Again,  suppose  Congress  even  could  constitutionally  exercise  such  power,  would 
it  be  wise,  or  desirable  that  it  should  do  so when  the  effect  would  be,  to  place  the 
difierent  States  in  the  L'nion  upon  different  footings,  as  to  rights  ?  -N^ay,  as  to  the 
most  important  right,  with  which  the  original  States  are  invested  That  is,  the  right 
of  jurisdiction  over  persons  within  its  own  limits.  This  inquiry  may  be  extended 
further.  Suppose  any  of  the  free  States,  self-called.  Ohio  for  instance,  in  some  capri- 
cious mood,  should  determine  that  all  the  coloured  people,  who  have  been  invited  to 
take  refuge  in  that  State,  against  tlie  slavery  of  otlier  States,  should  be  slaves  within 
that  State  ;  would  the  Federal  Government  have  the  right  to  exercise  any  control 
over  such  determination  ?  Certainly  not— the  jurisdiction  over  persons  within  the 
limits  of  Ohio,  being  exclusively  with  the  State  authorities.  Here,  then,  Ohio  would 
be  invested  with  the  power  of  jurisdiction  over  persons  within  its  limits,  which  would 
be  denied  to  another  State  admitted  to  tlie  Union,  subject  to  the  bargained  condition. 
Such  are  always  the  consequences  of  substituting  bargains  for  principles  in  legis- 
lation." 


248 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


What  has  Ohio  now  done  ?  Becoming  perfectly  sensible  of  the  mischiefs  which 
have  resulted  from  her  former  fanaticism,  she  has  passed  a  law,  which,  if  carried  into 
execution,  must  entail  upon  those  unfortunate  and  deluded  people,  who  came  into  her 
State,  in  the  belief  that  the}^  should  find  protection  there,  a  greater  evil  than  slavery 
itself.  The  mischief  has  arrived  at  such  a  pitch,  that  the  State  has  passed  a  law,  re- 
quiring that  all  coloured  persons  in  the  State,  should  give  security  for  their  good  be- 
haviour, to  an  amount  beyond  their  means  to  obtain.  And  not  being  able  to  do  this, 
they  must  either  be  incarcerated,  or  quit  the  State.  No  asylum  is  provided  for  them, 
but  if  the  law  should  be  carried  into  effect,  they  must  be  driven  forth — find  refuge 
where  they  can — perhaps  in  Virginia ;  and  surely  Virginia  ought  to  be  upon  the  alert 
to  counteract  this  most  probable  effect  of  the  law.  The  next  step  which  Ohio  may 
take,  may  be  to  declare  those  people  slaves,  and  it  is  more  likely  now  that  she  should 
do  so,  than  it  was  when  the  preceding  remarks  were  made,  that  she  should  now  take 
this  step,  which  is  more  onerous  and  disastrous  to  her  invited  guests  than  slavery 
itself.  It  is,  indeed,  strange,  that  these  coloured  people  should  have  been  invited  into 
thit  State,  and  should  now  be  driven  abroad  as  vagabonds,  not  on  the  face  of  the 
earth,  but  to  find  their  way  to  the  clouds,  if  they  can,  or  wherever  else  they  could 
find  a  refuge.  He  mentioned  this  subject  to  show  how  scrupulous  the  States  ought 
to  be,  in  touching  the  subject  of  slavery,  and  particularly  of  emancipation. 

There  was  another  point,  which  he  was  compelled  yesterday  to  omit,  having  then 
been  nearly  exhausted.  It  was  the  difference  between  the  rights  of  the  majority, 
claimed  from  the  various  misconceived  sources,  to  which  gentlemen  had  referred,  and 
such  as  were  given  by  the  Constitution  or  Social  Compact.  The  specific  question 
before  us,  is,  not  what  relates  to  the  powers  of  the  majority,  nor  who  shall  be  the  ma- 
jority ;  but  who  shall  be  the  constituents  to  make  that  majority  The  question  now 
is,  wlio  are  to  be  the  constituents  By  whose  votes  a  majority  <ff  the  members  form- 
ing the  practical  Government,  is  to  be  created?  And,  then,  what  degree  of  jurisdic- 
tion should  this  majority  have  ?  This  must  depend  on  the  Social  Compact,  or  written 
Constitution  we  are  now  engaged  in  forming ;  and  that  brought  him  to  the  real  point 
of  inquiry,  as  contained  in  the  Bill  of  Rights.  In  determining  who  shall  be  the  con- 
stituents, the  rule  he  had  agreed  to  observe,  which  he  still  agreed  to  observe,  and 
which  he  hoped  all  gentlemen  would  observe,  is,  that  these  constituents  are  to  be 
made,  in  such  manner  as  shall  be  judged  most  conducive  to  the  public  weal."  The 
rule  imposed  on  us,  is  to  perfect  the  great  work  now  before  us,  in  such  manner  as 
may  be  most  conducive  to  the  public  weal.  He  had  now  arrived  at  the  point  at  which 
he  left  off  yesterday. 

He  would  now  consider  the  actual,  local  differences,  arising  from  the  unequal,  sec- 
tional divisions  of  our  slave  property.  The  question  which  has  arisen,  is,  whether 
slaves  ought  to  be  counted,  in  forming  the  basis  of  representation,  either  as  persons 
or  property  ?  It  is  a  plain  question,  if  we  agree  as  to  the  objects  of  the  formation  of 
Government.  Why  should  they  not  be  counted.?  They  are  persons  and  property 
both.  Because  they  are  property,  shall  we  divest  them  of  their  existence — of  their 
personal  character  ?  They  are  both  persons  and  property  in  law  and  in  fact.  He  did 
not  state  this  with  such  positiveness,  because  he  pretended  to  claim  any  superiority 
for  his  own  opinions.  Far  from  it.  He  would  present  to  the  Committee  the  lew 
grounds  on  which  his  opinion  rests,  and  leave  them  to  decide.  He  would  point  out 
some  of  the  supposed  aberrations  of  the  gentlemen  on  the  other  side.  The  fact,  that 
they  are  property,  is  authorised  by  the  federal  law,  the  laws  of  the  State,  international 
law,  and  the  sanctions  of  all  laws.  Great  Britain  may  be  referred  to  on  this  subject, 
on  account  of  the  peculiarity  of  her  policy  in  that  respect.  She  is  so  fastidious  in 
her  ideas  of  the  relation  of  master  and  slave,  that  the  moment  they  touch  British 
ground,  in  that  relation,  such  relation  between  them  is  entirely  cut  asunder.  Where 
then  shall  we  look  for  the  British  sanction  of  slavery  ?  We  found  it  first  here — we 
found  the  curse  upon  us,  for  a  curse  he  must  consider  it.  It  is  admitted  that  we  can- 
not avoid  it.  That  very  nation,  which  is  so  fastidious  on  the  subject  of  slavery  in 
British  land,  fixed  it  on  us  against  our  consent.  She  has  lately,  in  a  treaty  with  this 
country,  admitted  slaves  to  be  property,  and  has  paid  for  them  as  such,  and  thus  she 
has  again  admitted  the  principle  of  slavery.  Look  first  at  her  West  India  possessions. 
Slavery  is  there,  in  its  essence.  The  condition  of  the  slave  there  is  miserable  in  com- 
parison with  what  it  is  here.  There  is  abundant  evidence  around  us  to  prove  that 
we  are  making  the  best  use  of  our  power,  to  meliorate  the  condition  of  slaves. 

He  here  begged  to  correct  an  aberration  of  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun  (Mr. 
Mercer,)  as  he  conceived  it  to  be.  That  gentleman  had  laid  it  down  positively,  that 
a  slave  in  Virginia  had  no  civil  rights— that  he  was  property— mere  property.  He 
compared  him  even  to  cattle.  He  presumed,  however,  that  that  gentleman  would  ad- 
mit the  existence  of  laws  which  treat  slaves  as  persons :  protecting  them  as  far  as 
wrongs  are  committed  on  persons  in  the  character  of  persons,  and  consequently  that 
slaves  have  civil  rights.  All  persons,  whether  they  be  bond  or  free,  not  even  except- 
ing the  master  himself,  who  commit  the  higher  order  of  wrongs,  such  as  murder,  &c. 


DEBATES  OF  THE  COXVENTIOJf. 


249 


on  slaves,  are  subject  to  the  punishment  of  death.  The  distinction  on  \\-hich  tliis 
law  is  founded,  is,  that  the  offence  is  committed  on  them  in  the  character  of  persons, 
and  on  the  cattle  in  the  character  of  property.  The  law  in  minor  cases,  for  wrongs 
<ione  to  slaves,  punishes  through  the  master.  As  to  the  civil  personal  rights  of  the 
.•slave,  they  are  more  strictly  enforced  here  than  those  of  the  white  population.  The 
protection  which  they  receive  under  the  law  is  most  efficacious.  The  gentleman 
from  Loudoun  then,  was  in  error.  If  rich  or  p^or,  wliile  or  black,  murder  a  slave, 
^death  is  the  punishment.  Did  gentlemen  ever  hear  of  punishment  of  death  for  kil- 
ling a  cow.^  No,  not  even  if  the  murderer  eat  her  afterwards  ;  yet  these  are  the  ana- 
logies of  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun. 

He  would  say,  that  the  laws  in  relation  to  slaves  are  wise  nnd  just.  The  law  re- 
quires that  the  record  of  every  offence  charged  against  a  slave,  for  which  a  white  man 
would  be  punished  in  the  Penitentiary,  shcill  be  laid  before  the  Executive,  for  its  de- 
cision :  thus  submitting  by  mere  act  of  law,  the  case  of  every  slave,  f  jund  guilty  of 
a  criminal  act,  to  the  pardoning  power.  According  to  the  humane  provision  of  the 
law,  the  slave  enjoys  privileges  which  are  not  allowed  to  any  one  else.  Tiie  best 
counsel  is  provided  for  him  by  his  master,  or  by  the  Court,  if  the  master  should  fail, 
and  his  rights  are  protected  with  the  utmost  vigilance  and  care.  If  we  look  at  the 
police  records  of  London,  we  shall  see  that  thousands  are  hung  in  tliat  city  with  al- 
most as  little  ceremony  as  if  they  were  brutes.  Under  this  view,  then,  as  the  laws  re- 
cognize the  civil  rights  of  bond  as  well  as  free,  why  are  slaves  not  to  be  counted  ?  The 
fact  is,  that  whether  persons  or  property,  their  labour  produces  a  third  of  the  taxes  of 
the  State.  He  cared  not  in  what  character  the  siay-es  produced  them.  The  practical 
result,  whether  counted  as  persons  or  property,  is  nearly  the  same.  But  here  is  a 
case  in  point,  of  the  unequal  taxation  of  an  imp  ;rtant  interest  wliieh  requires  some 
provision  in  the  Constitution.  Gentlemen  admit  there  should  be  s  me  provision,  and 
offer  a  0:uarantee  against  the  principle  which  tht-y  desire  to  insert  in  the  ConstitutioH,. 
What  is  the  object  in  establisiiing  the  fundamental  laws  ?  It  is  to  draw  from  nature,, 
certain  o-reat  general  principles,  for  the  government  of  society,  producing  good  moral 
tendencies,  through  their  own  intrinsic  operations.  According  to  tlie  wise  or  unwise 
-selection  of  these  principles,  would  moral  or  immi;ral  tenj^encies  be  produced  in  so- 
ciety. If  we  selected  principles  conducive  to  the  public  v/eal,  the  effect  is  visible,  in 
the  moral  organization  which  the  community  gradually  assumes.  If  the  contraiy,, 
the  effect  is  disclosed  in  tlieir  corrupt  tendencies.  It  is  then  manifestly  our  duty, 
select  principles,  which  would  intrinsically  produce  good  and  notesvii  tendencies  upon 
•society.  He  would  here  remark,  that  the  condition  of  the  population  of  Virginia,  is 
now  believed  to  be  as  sound  as  that  of  an}-  other  country  in  the  world,  because  the 
great  principles  which  our  forefathers  selected,  had  continued  to  produce  good  moral 
tendencies  from  that  time  to  the  present — a  period  of  more  than  54  years.  Is  there 
any  wonder  then,  in  our  present  moral  condition  .-^  What  are  the  consequences  of  the 
-want  of  good  principles  in  other  communities,  but  the  existence  of  immoral  tenden- 
cies in  their  fundamental  laws.  It  is  a  conclusive  proof  that  gentlemen  on  the  other 
side,  are  selecting  principles,  which  have  bad  tendencies,  that  they  are  proyiding  reme- 
dies against  those  very  tendencies.  This  reminded  him  of  a  silly  fellow  who  insisted 
upon  making  himself  sick,  merely  f^r  ihe  purpose  of  ascertaining,  whether  phjsie 
•would  kill  or  cure  him,  when  it  was  more  likely  to  kill  than  cure  him. 

He  had  paid  every  attention  to  the  pathetic  complaints,  which  had  been  made  by 
•gentlemen  on  the  other  side,  but  more  particularly  to  those  of  the  gentleman  from 
Hampshire,  (Mr.  Naylor)  to  whom  he  had  listened  with  peculiar  delight,  not  only  on 
•account  of  the  eloquence,  but  the  philanthropy  which  pervaded  the  whole  of  his  re- 
marks. That  gentleman  had  called  upon  us  for  justice  to  ihe  people  of  the  West.. 
Mr.  Gr.  said,  could  be  see  the  injustice  complained  of,  he  v^culd  ohtj  the  call  with 
pleasure.  But  he  could  not  see  any  anah)g3'  in  the  cases,  which  it  was  said  called  foi* 
the  -exercise  of  this  act  of  justice.  The  complaint  is,  that  the  people  East  of  the 
Ridge  demand  protection  for  their  property,  and,  at  the  same  time,  refuse  protection 
to  the  persons  of  those  West  of  the  Ridge.  This,  in  the  first  place,  is  not  the  case; 
for  the  exclusion  of  persons,  which  is  demanded  for  the  protection  of  property,  ap- 
plies equally  to  the  East  and  to  the  West.  There  is  no  analogy,  hovvever,  in  tJie 
two  cases.  The  Eastern  people  have  persons  as  well  as  propei'tj'  to  protect.  The 
Western,  persons  only,  so  far  as  the  exclusion  is  intended  to  go — and  the  exclusion  of 
persons  is  the  same  both  on  the  West  and  the  East  side  of  the  Pddge.  The  Eastern 
people  have  as  much  interest  to  protect  person  85  property.  The  Penal  laws  are  the 
same  and  must  always  be  the  same  on  both  sides  of  the  jlidge.  The  Western  peo- 
ple, who  had  no  property  to  protect,  and  into  whose  hands  it  was  now  proposed  to 
place  the  power  of  protection,  v.'ere  not  only  not  interested  in  affording,  but  v^ere  in- 
terested in  depriving  property  of  that  protection.  Tiiay  would  be  aided  too,  in  doincr- 
this  without  injury  to  themselves,  by  the  difference  in  the  kinds  of  property  on  this 
and  tlie  other  side  of  the  Ridge — and  particularly  the  great  disproportion  in  the  slaves - 

32     ^  ■  - 


250 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


He  asserted,  that  on  the  formation  of  the  social  compact  there  were  two  parties- — the 
governors  and  the  governed,  and  that  the  conditions  of  the  compact,  were  formed 
upon  the  principle  of  the  quid  pro  quo.  The  governed  give  up  a  portion  of  their 
rights  to  be  compensated  for,  by  the  protection  of  other  rights  to  be  afforded  by  the  • 
Government.  There  was  then  a  stipulated  obhgation  on  the  part  of  the  Government 
to  protect  property,  and  there  was  a  greater  diftictdty  in  complying  with  this  obliga- 
tion than  in  the  protection  of  persons.  The  gentlemen  admit  both  these  obligations. 
No  one  would  deny  them.  Is  not  the  Government  bound  therefore,  on  this  principle 
of  quid  pro  quo,  in  return  for  property  given  up  to  protect  the  residue  ?  This  admission 
seemed  to  him  to  settle  the  question  absolutely.  What  are  we  now  doing  ?  We  are 
about  to  constitute  an  agent  to  protect  both  person  and  property.  Here  are  two  in- 
terests. The  great  object  is  to  protect  both.  Would  it  be  wise  to  choose  an  agent 
who  had  an  interest  in  protecting  both  or  one  only.?  Surely  all  the  world  would  agree, 
that  he  ought  to  have  an  interest  in  protecting  both,  and  not  one  only.  Here  another 
question  is  presented.  A  great  deal  has  been  said  about  the  protection  of  wealth,  a 
term  which  seems  to  have  been  substituted  for  property.  Property  in  se,  is  not 
wealth.  It  is  property,  in  large  masses,  which  constitutes  wealth.  Propert}'^  in  small 
portions  is  not  wealth ;  and  no  one  has  ever  insinuated  or  thought  of  alfording  more 
protection  to  large  than  to  small  portions  of  property.  Hence,  the  poor  man's  proper- 
ty is  to  be  as  much  protected  as  the  rich  man  s.  It  is  property  which  is  to  be  protect- 
ed then — whether  in  large  or  small  portions,  and  not  wealth — the  property  of  the 
poor  as  well  £is  of  the  rich;  and  the  property  of  the  poor  in  this  country  is  vastly  more 
extensive  than  that  of  the  rich.  And  the  protection  of  property  indiscriminate!}'-, 
would  strip  the  argument  of  the  protection  of  wealth,  by  higher  sanctions  never 
thought  of,  of  all  its  terrors. 

Several  gentlemen,  and  particularly  the  gentleman  from  Frederick  (Mr.  Cooke)  most 
earnestly  invites  us  to  place  the  protection  of  our  property,  on  the  morals  of  the  peo- 
ple West  of  the  Ridge,  aiid  not  on  their  interests.  Will  the  gentlemen  return  the 
compliment  to  their  brethren  East  of  the  Ridge,  and  place  their  protection  on  our 
morals  ?  If  so,  we  are  then  to  act  upon  the  principle,  that  we  are  all  moral — ''all  ho- 
norable men" — disregarding  altogether  the  selfish  notions  of  interest.  If  this  be  re- 
ally the  case,  he  v>'ould  respectfully  ask  these  gentlemen  what  would  be  the  use  of 
Government  at  all.?  Government  is  not  intended  for  moral,  honorable  men;  but  as  a 
protection  against  the  vices  and  imperfections  of  man;  and  if  man  were  totally  ex- 
empt from  all  vices  and  imperfections,  there  would  be  no  necessity  for  Government 
at  all.  It  was  strange  to  him  that  gentlemen  did  not  see,  that  this  was  a  new  ema- 
nation of  the  French  philosophy  of  the  perfectibility  of  man ;  and  that  if  adopted 
here,  would  be  attended  with  the  same  results  which  attended  it  in  France,  It  failed 
in  France,  and  will  fail  in  every  other  country  in  which  it  may  be  tried,  simply,  be- 
cause it  is  founded  in  a  false,  though  flattering  hypothesis.  The  notion  of  the  per- 
fectibility of  man  affords  the  most  flattering  unction  to  his  vanity,  but  unfortunately 
for  him  it  has  no  real  existence,  and  is  nothing  more  than  a  mischievous,  delusive  vision 
of  the  mind.  The  gentlemen,  in  support  of  this  fallacious  doctrine,  refer  us  to  the 
liberality  of  the  slaveholders  on  the  East  side  of  the  Ridge  towards  the  non-slave- 
holders on  the  West,  as  an  example  in  point,  in  favor  of  his  proposition.  It  is  true  Vir- 
ginia v.'as  thus  liberal  in  that  particiilar  case,  and  is  always  liberal.  She  gave  up 
her  western  lands,  sufficient  to  form  an  extended  empire  in  themselves.  She  was 
liberal  to  Kentucky;  and  she  has  ever  been  liberal,  in  her  intercourse  with  her  sister 
States.  Whence  the  causes  of  this  celebrity  of  Virginia  liberality  ?  Surely,  from  ^ 
the  moral  tendencies  of  her  fundamental  laws  for  fifty-four  years.  They  teach  her 
that  it  is  to  her  interest  to  be  liberal,  and  that  honesty  is  the  best  policy  for  nations. 
Could  there  be  higher  compliments  to  the  wisdom  of  the  fundamental  laws  of  Virgi- 
nia than  are  contained  in  these  demonstrations  ?  He  begged  to  call  the  attention  of  . 
the  Convention  to  an  example,  forming  an  awful  contrast  to  the  one  presented  by  the 
gentleman.  It  was  furnished  by  the  Federal  Government.  An  excessive  tax  has 
been  imposed  by  that  Government,  as  he  conceived,  in  direct  violation  of  morals,  prin- 
ciples, and  the  plainest  provisions  of  our  written  Constitution.  It  originated  in  com- 
binations of  particular  sections  of  country  to  tax  other  sections.  These  combinations 
were  effected  by  invitations  given  by  certain  political  fanatics  to  other  fanatics,  to 
meet  in  Convention,  at  Harrisburg,  during  the  recess  of  Congress;  excluding  all 
the  sections  of  country  intended  to  be  made  tributary  from  these  invitations.  Vir*' 
ginia  was  not  honored  with  an  invitation,  nor  any  State  South  or  South- West  of  Vir- 
ginia. This  Convention,  thus  composed,  unblushingly  met  at  Harrisburg  in  open  day ; 
organized  themselves  into  a  Convention,  with  all  the  assumed  honors  and  formalities 
awarded  to  this  Convention  ;  and  there  laid  the  foundation  of  the  Tariff  Act  which 
was  subsequently  sanctioned  by  an  Act  of  Congress.  This  Act  was  passed  in  direct 
violation  of  every  principle  of  taxation  heretofore  held  sacred,  and  was  addressed  to 
the  worst  passions  of  the  human  heart.  It  was  dictated  by  a  spirit  of  electioneering 
and  of  avarice,  which  reckless  of  all  principle,  invited  the  manufacturer  to  rely  upon 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


251 


the  labor  of  others,  instead  of  his  ovrn  labor,  not  only  for  support,  but  even  for  the 
accumulation  of  weaitii;  and  actually  furnished  him  with  means,  of  taking  the  pro- 
ceeds of  the  labor  of  another,  which,  if  done  without  the  sanction  of  this  iniquitous 
Act,  would  amount  to  a  criminal  offence.  The  elFect  of  tliis  Act  has  been  to  demo- 
ralize the  whole  country,  and  to  impoverish  the  whole  of  the  tributary  parts  of  it.  It 
has  taken  from  his  own  pocket  every  current  dollar  he  possessed;  and  would  go  on 
to  prevent  him  from  ever  re-possessing  another.  Isor  is  there  any  hope  for  any  rehef 
against  this  unprincipled  imposition,  so  long  as  this  baneful,  electioneering  spirit  shall 
continue  to  direct  our  councils.  It  is  the  most  unrelenting  spirit,  and,  instead  of  our 
hoping  for  relaxation,  it  is  constantly  in  search  of  some  little  modicum  of  property 
remaining  untaxed  for  the  tax  of  the  next  year.  (See  note  at  the  end.)  Such  are  the 
effects  of  the  unprincipled  measures  recommended  by  this  fanatical  Convention  at 
Harrisburg;  wliich,  after  usurping  all  the  powers  of  an  authorised  Convention,  kept 
a  regular  journal  of  their  proceedings,  and  after  their  adjourninent,  ofScially  forward- 
ed him  a  copy  thereof.  JNow,  he  would  ask  all  men,  above  and  belovr  the  moiintains 
— all  christians — all  lovers  of  right  and  haters  of  evil,  to  determine  whether  such 
proceedings  can,  or  ought  to  be  tolerated.^  If  so,  how  deplorable  is  our  condition  be- 
low the  mountains  !  The  General  Government  nrst  plunders  us  under  a  pretext  of 
protecting  manufactures,  of  every  dollar  within  their  reach ;  and  then  our  trans- 
mountain  brethren  gravely  ask  us  to  trust  the  residue,  if  there  be  any.  to  their  morals. 
The  gentlemen  then  charge  Virginia  with  impoverishment  and  degradation,  and  seem 
to  intimate  that  both  have  arisen  from  the  imperfections  of  our  organic  laws.  It  is 
true  that  Virginia  is  impoverished,  but  not  degraded.  Is  that  impoverishment  con- 
fined to  Viro:inia,  or  does  it  not  extend  to  South  Carolina,  and  the  v.'hole  of  the  tribu- 
tary scene  of  countr}' If  so.  then  the  extravagant  impositions  mider  the  Tariff  Act, 
must  be  the  true  cause  of  tliat  impoverishment :  2\ot  the  sujiposed  unperiections  of 
the  organic  laws  of  \''irginia.  The}^  have  moral  tendencies  wliich  never  could  pro^ 
duce  impoverishment.  I'he  bankruptcj'  of  \'irginia;  is  in  cash — not  in  morals,  nor  in 
principles.  Amidst  all  her  misfortunes  and  impoverislin^ent,  she  stajids  now  as  erect 
and  distinguished  in  morals  and  in  principles,  as  she  has  ever  done  at  any  former 
time.  The  true  cause,  then,  of  tire  bankruptcy  of  Virginia  in  cashAs  the  Tariff  Act, 
This  plunders  all  our  cash,  and  that  being  taken  away,  impoverishment  is  the  neces- 
sary consequence.  Here,  then,  is  a  direct  and  immediate  cause  for  this  deplorable 
effect,  without  resorting  to  imputations  against  our  fundamental  laws  as  the  cause  of 
it:  The  attributable  cause  havino-  no  aiiiiiity  nor  relationship  to  the  effect  suggested 
to  be  produced  b}-  it. 

We  here  have  to  encounter  a.notlier  pathetic  appeal  to  our  feelings.  Several  gen- 
tlemen, and  particularly  the  learned  gentleman  irom  Loudoun,  (Mr.  JNIercer)  whose 
absence  he  regretted,  had  urged  with  great  earnestness,  claims  for  militaiy  services, 
rendered  during  the  las.  war,  by  our  brethren  of  the  West.  The  absent  gentleman 
drew  in  the  most  vivid  colours  these  patriotic  services — exhibited  so  much  sensibility 
and  exhausted  so  much  time  on  the  occasion,  as  to  satisfv  every  hearer,  that  he  must 
himself  have  been  an  honorable  partaker  in  the  scene.  But  Mr.  G.  hardlj^  expected 
that  he  would  have  exhausted  so  much  declamation  in  eulogiums  upon  the  patriotism 
and  heroism  of  these  defenders  of  tlieir  C'^untry.  because  this  tribunal  was  the  last  in 
the  world  to  whose /ce  ings  appeals  of  a.ny  kind  should  be  made.  JXo.  Sir;  ours  is  the 
severe  duty  to  search  for  principles,  and  not  to  indulge  our  feelings.  There  was  no 
member  of  the  Committee,  more  ready  tlian  himself,  to  do  ample  justice  to  the  hero- 
ism and  patriotism  of  the  soldiers  of  the  ^^'est  on  that  occasion.  But  he  could  see 
no  affinitj',  whatever,  between  those  feelings,  and  the  claims  so  pathetically  urged  by 
the  gentleman,  for  extending  to  them  the-right  of  suffrage,  or  an}'  other  civii  ri^rht 
whatever.  To  ascertain  this  point,  it  would  be  necessary  to  resort  to  first  principles. 
It  would  be  observed,  that  from  the  origin  of  society  to  the  present  time,  some  of  its 
members  possessed  physical  powers,  and  others  possessed  money.  It  is  the  duty  of 
those  who  possess  the  physical  power,  to  defend  the  society  by  arms.  It  is  the  duty 
of  those  who  have  mone}-,  to  pay  their  defenders  full  compensation  for  their  services. 
The  militia  laws  are  the  arbiters  between  tlu-se  who  fight  and  those  who  pa}'.  In  the 
present  case,  our  brave  and  patriotic  defenders  v/ere  fully  paid,  and  when  that  was 
done,  there  was  an  end  of  all  obligatic  n  between  the  parties.  If  they  have  not  yet 
received  compensation  enough — in  tlie  name  of  God,  give  them  more.  Itiuustbe 
presumed  that  they  have  received  enough,  because  there  is  no  grumbhng  upon  that 
score.  But  the  great  objection  to  this  principle  is,  the  intermixture  of  cWA  and  mili- 
tary rights.  What  would  be  the  effect  of  placing  mihtary  claims  for  services  at  the 
fountain  of  all  power  ?  It  would  be  to  subvert  the  order  of  the  civil  and  mihtary  au- 
thorities— making  the  civil  subordinate  to  the  military,  instead  of  the  military  subor- 
dinate to  the  civil  authority  ;  and  tlius,  with  a  mere  scrape  of  a  pen,  convert  a  free, 
republican  Government,  into  a  military,  despotic  one.  Pay,  then,  the  military  in 
land,  in  money,  in  military  honors,  in  gratitude,  in  love,  if  you  please;  but  for  God's 
sake,  never  pay  tliem  in  your  civil  nor  religious  rights.     But  keep  forever  mihtary 


252 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION 


and  civil  rig^Iits  separate  and  distinct  from  each  otiier.  Some  gentlemen  have  most 
gravely  and  seriously  complained  that  we  withhold  their  rights  from  them.  He  should! 
be  glad  to  know  what  rights  tliey  mean.  He  would  be  happy  to  hear  what  rights  they 
are.  He  knows  of  none — nor  has  he  heard  any  described.  The  only  right,  which 
he  conceived  the  gentleman  could  allude  to,  is  the  right  to  do  icrong.  They  call  upon 
us  to  surrender  to  them  the  power  of  taxing  a  species  of  our  property  without  taxing 
tiieir  own.  To  do  so  would  be  a  wrong,  not  a  nght — certainly  not  aright  included  in 
Ms  system  of  ethics.  They  complain  of  our  reusing  them  their  natural  right  of  suf- 
frage. They  say  it  is  cruel  to  deprive  the  poor  of  their  natural  right  of  votmg.  Yet, 
in  the  next  breath,  they,  themselves,  exclude  more  than  half  the  nation  from  the  ex- 
ercise of  the  same  right.  They  must  necessarily  carry  the  right  to  its  whole  extent,, 
or  abandon  it  altogether  ;  otherwise  they  would  be  guilty  of  the  most  evident  incon- 
sistency in  their  own  doctrines.  Let  a  case  be  put  including  a  youth  of  twenty-one 
yeai-s-  of  age,  according  to  their  rule,  and  excluding  one  of  twenty.  Let  the  youth  of 
twenty  take  up  the  mt- niorial  recently  presented  to  us — written  with  great  ability  and 
eloquence— and  read  it  to  the  youth  of  twenty-one  included  within  the  rule,  which 
arbitrarily  excludes  himself;  and  then  address  him  as  follows:  "I  am  a  much 
smarter  fellow  then  you  are.  I  can  out-read  you — out-write  you,  and  out-cipher  you. 
I  can  out-run  you — out-juinp  you — throw  you  down,  and  whip  you  after  you  get  up. 
In  the  point  of  the  fashional)le  consummation  of  the  qualifications  for  a  voter,  such 
is  the  thickness  of  my  pericranium,  that  I  can  drink  a  quart  of  whiskey  to  your  pint, 
and  give  a  better  vote  than  you  can  afterwards.  Is  it  not  cruel,  then,  that  one  so 
highly  gifted  for  a  voter  as  myself,  should  be  excluded  by  a  rule  of  right,  which  in- 
cludes such  a  booby  as  you  are?"  What  reply  could  be  made  to  so  just  and 
pathetic  complaint  ?  Certainly  none,  if  the  rule  be  right.  This  would  prove  incon- 
testably,  that  all  claims  grounded  on  natural  rights  must  be  abandoned,  and  that  we 
must  act  upon  expediency  alone.  That  we  must  observe  the  injunction  of  the  Bill  of 
Rights  to  extend  tlie  right  of  suifrage  in  such  manner  only,  as  we  shall  judge  most 
conducive  to  the  public  weal,  and  to  tliose  only,  who  shall  possess  sufficient  evidence 
of  a  common,  pennaiieat  attachment  to  the  community. 

Mr.  G.  said,  he  was  now  approaching  a  point  in  the  debate,  which  filled  him  with 
pain  and  regret ;  because  he  could  not  avoid  seeing  in  it  some  departure  from  that 
spirit  of  decorum,  as  well  as  of  confidence  and  affection,  which  had  heretofore  cha- 
racteii&ed  the  debat-^.  He  alluded  to  certain  observations  made  by  the  gentleman  from 
Brooke,  (Mr.  Doddridge)  which  he  could  not  help  construmg  into  polite  threats,  from 
the  infltienca  of  the  physical  power  vVest  of  tlie  llidge.  The  language  used  by  the 
gentleman,  was  not  presented  to  us  in  the  insulting  terms  of  "  war,  pestilence  and  fa- 
mine ;"  but  it  was  equally  intelligible,  and  to  him  not  less  repulsive.  He  had  no  in- 
tention of  reciprocating  either  the  spirit  or  language  of  these  threats.  God  forbid 
that  he  should  infuse  one  drop  of  bitterness  into  tiiis  debate  !  The  first  object  of  his 
heart  was,  to  improve  the  spirit  of  conciliation  and  concession.  Such  language  as 
"  war,  pestilence  and  famine,"  had  been  heretofore  banished  from  this  Convention; 
and  he  thanked  God  for  it.  But  can  any  other  interpretation  be  put  upon  the  follow- 
ing observations  of  the  gentleman  from  Brooke,  but  polite  tlireats  of  the  physical 
force  of  the  West  against  the  East : 

'•How  fatal,  then,  will  be  the  effects,  should  you  be  guilty  of  misrule  !  You  say^ 
to  be  sure,  that  we  are  a  minority  :  of  the  freeholders,  perhaps  v/e  may  be  :  but  look 
at  the  votes  given  at  the  polls,  where  the  true  voice  of  the  people  of  Virginia  was 
heard  ;  and  it  will  appear,  that  while  you  represent  280,000  of  that  people,  we  repre- 
sent 402,000  of  them.  I  acknowledge  that  so  Viist  an  odds  proves  one  thing,  at  least 
it  proves  that  heroic,  moril  boldness  which  inspires  the  gentlemen  v;ho  are  opposed 
to  a  new  Constitution.  It  proves  that  they  are  as  daring  and  firm,  as  I  well  know 
them  to  be  upright  and  honorable." 

What  is  the  meaning  of  this  language  1  What  is  the  meaning  of  presenting  the 
odds  between  402,000  whites  on  the  Vfest  side  of  the  Pudge,  and  280,000  on  the  East? 
Why  call  upon  us  to  exert  heroic,  moral  boldness,  in  giving  a  vote  upon  the  present 
question,  agreeably  to  the  dictates  of  our  own  conscience.?  He  meant  not  to  press 
this  argument  upon  the  minds  of  others,  similarly  circumstanced  with  himself.  But 
he  could  not  abandon  the  duty  of  stating  its  impressions  upon  his  own  mind.  It 
would  not  be  possible  for  him  to  surrender  the  power  demanded  under  the  influence 
of  these  threats,  especially  when  the  uses  intended  to  be  made  of  the  physical  power> 
were  openly  avowed.  Other  gentlemen,  similarly  circumstanced,  might  do  so ;  but 
in  such  case,  their  only  reliance,  so  far  as  he  could  see,  must  be  in  the  morals  of  our 
Western  brethren,  for  the  protection  of  their  own  interests  and  the  interests  of  their 
constituents.  If  so,  amiable  may  be  the  thought — philanthropic  the  intent — and  gene- 
rous the  act,  but  deadly  the  mistake  in  his  judgment  to  their  own  interests,  and  to  the 
interests  of  tlieir  constituents — vain,  indeed,  he  feared,  Avould  be  this  reliance. 

If  threats  thus  bold  are  to  be  presented  to  us,  while  the  physical  force  of  the  West 
is  restrained  by  the  Constitution  and  the  laws,  with  how  much  more  force  will  they 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


253 


assail  us,  when  we  shall  yield  up  the  Constitution  at  their  bidding,  and  they  shall 
have  made  tiie  laws,  under  their  own  interpretation  of  it.  In  that  case,  instead  of 
being  restrained  by  a  sacred  respect  for  the  Constitution  and  the  laws,  they  will  have 
both  co-operating  with  the  threatened  physical  force  on  their  side.  He  should  think, 
that  these  circumstances  woudd  present  a  most  awful  question,  for  the  consideration 
of  every  member  as  well  as  of  every  mdividual  inhabitant  East  of  the  Ridge.  Whilst, 
however,  he  left  other  gentlemen  to  their  own  reflections,  he  would  state  with  frank- 
ness, their  efi^ect  on  his  own  mind.  He  could  never,  for  a  moment,  think  of  voting 
against  his  own  conscientious  convictions,  under  the  influence  of  any  threats  what- 
ever. So  far  from  it,  they  would  serve  to  fortify  him  in  acting  fully  up  to  those  con- 
victions. He  should  vote,  therefore,  with  more  firmness,  than  if  he  had  not  been 
told,  that  there  were  402,000  whites  on  the  West  side  of  the  Ridge,  who  could  be  ar- 
rayed against  280,000  on  the  East  side,  at  least  as  early  as  the  year  1850 ;  and  even  if 
he  had  doubled  before,  these  threats,  Avith  the  avowals  they  contained,  would  serve  to 
dissipate  those  doubts,  and  fix  more  decidedly  his  impressions.  The  arguments  of 
the  gentleman,  may  have  their  full  force  upon  those,  who  expect  to  reap  a  beneficial 
c-ffectfrom  that  inSuencej  but  they  could  only  be  repulsive  to  him,  who  was  tlureat- 
ened,  as  well  as  his  own  constituents,  to  be  the  victims  of  that  influence.  He  could 
not  avoid  also,  suggesting  to  the  gentleman,  although  he  did  so  with  great  reluctance,, 
but  in  a  spirit  of  good  feelings,  that  these  threats  may  serve  to  teach  him  two  most 
important  lessons.  The  fn-st;  that  the  people  below  the  Ridge,  will  always  be  found 
to  have  as  much  of  that  "  heroic,  moral  boldness,"  and  to  be  as  "  daring  and  firm,"  as 
any  occasion  shall  require.  Second ;  that  they  will  necessarily  be  driven,  with  how- 
ever great  reluctance,  to  the  ascertainment^  to  the  full  extent  of  all  their  energies  and 
capacities,  fiscal  and  physical. 

Mr.  G.  said,  these  reflections  had  naturally  drawn  his  attention  to  some  remarks 
made  by  the  venerable  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  (Mr.  IMonroe)  in  relation  to  a  pro- 
bable separation  of  this  State.  That  gentleman  had  earnestly  admonished  us  of  the 
danger  of  such  separation,  which  was  much  enhanced  b}^  our  divisions  and  collisions 
of  opinion  here.  Surely,  such  danger  must  be  visible  to  all,  when  they  see  tliis  array  of 
force  presented  against  force  ;  and  surely  all  will  admit  that  it  is  the  first  duty  of  the 
Convention  to  guard  against  an  impending  evil  of  so  much  magnitude.  The  mere 
comparisons  of  force  against  force,  must  be  fraught  with  danger;  particularly  when  a 
geographical  line  of  demarcation  is  drawn  between  tlie  parties  placed  in  opposition  to 
each  other.  He  feared  the  danger  was  greater  than  was  generally  apprehended,  and  that 
the  best  mode  of  subduing  it,  would  be  to  command  our  own  passions,  and  to  bring 
our  own  deliberations  to  harmonious  results.  The  moment  the  suggestion  of  the  se- 
paration of  Virginia  was  made  by  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  it  entered  deeply  into 
his  own  mind,  and  extended  itself  into  a  thousand  ramifications,  which  he  felt  it  im- 
possible to  trace  in  all  tlieir  various  bearings.  He  verily  believed  that  more  extensive 
consequences  would  result  from  that  deplorable  event,  than  could  at  once  enter  into 
the  contemplation  of  any  gentleman.  Can  any  gentleman  believe  that  the  separation 
of  Virginia  would  stop  there  ?  If  there  be  really  any  one  who  thought  so,  he  could 
not  have  devoted  much  refiection  to  the  subject.  The  forcible  separation  of  V^irginia, 
must  and  Vv  ill  lea^d  to  a  separation  of  the  United  States,  come  when  it  will.  This 
would  be  the  probable  efiect  of  the  forcible  separation  of  any  State  in  the  Union,  but 
particularly  so  of  Virginia,  in  consequence  of  her  relations — and  especially  her  geo- 
graphical relations  to  the  United  States.  Have  we  not  awful  indications  of  the  pro- 
bable separation  of  Virginia,  not  only  from  what  is  passing  in  this  Hall,  but  also  out 
of  doors  ?  What  is  going  on  in  the  country  at  this  monient,  from  excitements  pro- 
duced by  our  debates  here  ?  An  anxious  and  ardent  spirit  is  seen  to  exist  in  the  coun- 
try generally  ;  and  the  excitement  in  one  district  has  displayed  itself,  in  actually  send- 
ing instructions  to  a  distinguished  member  of  this  body. 

Mr.  G.  said,  that  he  saw  from  the  newspapers,  that  tlie  people  of  other  districts 
were  actually  taking  the  business  of  this  Convention  into  their  own  hands.  He  saw 
that  a  single  vote  given  by  two  of  the  most  venerable  and  distinguished  members  of 
this  body  (Messrs.  Madison  and  Monroe)  was  calling  for  instructions  from  their  res- 
pective districts.  Could  not  ever}^  gentleman  see  in  these  extraordinary  excitements 
and  actual  movements  of  the  people,  great  danger  of  a  separation,  particularly  where 
a  geographical  line  of  demarcation  was  already  designated,  for  separating  the  comba- 
tants. No  human  being  can  foresee  the  extent  of  these  excitements,  nor  the  excesses 
to  which  they  may  be  carried.  We  have  a.lready  seen  one  honorable  member  of  this 
body  called  upon  under  their  influence  to  abandon  his  conscience  or  his  seat,  and 
who  had  actually  abandoned  his  seat  rather  than  his  conscience.  Mr.  G.  said,  he  was 
far  from  making  these  remarks,  vnth  a  view  of  depriving  the  people  of  their  unques- 
tionable right  of  instructing  their  members  on  this  floor.  He  thought  it  not'only 
their,  unquestionable  right,  but  their  indispensable  duty  to  do  so,  if  they  thouglit  the 
magnitude  of  the  occasion  called  for  their  interference  ;  and  he  begged  leave  here  to 
repeat  an  opinion  wliich  he  had  already  expressed,  that  a  division  ofl,his  State  neces,- 


254 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


sarily  involved  a  division  of  the  United  States.  In  regard  to  the  force  held  up  in  ter- 
rorem,h.e  could  only  say,  that  whenever  the  awful  occasion  should  arise  for  calling  in 
force  to  settle  collisions  and  divisions  amongst  ourselves,  the  destinies  of  this  countr}?- 
will  not  be  settled  by  tlie  physical  force  on  the  West  side  of  the  Ridge,  nor  of  the 
whole  United  States  alone.  No  gentleman  could  have  thought  much  upon  this  alarm- 
ing subject,  who  vi^ould  not  perceive,  that  the  physical  force  of  the  commercial  nations 
of  Europe,  would  settle  the  destinies  of  this  country  in  that  deprecated  event.  The 
mind,  in  contemplating  consequences,  could  not  avoid  discerning,  in  a  crisis  so  awful, 
that  the  great  and  splendid  city  of  New  York  would  have  much  more  to  dread  than 
the  city  of  Richmond  ;  for  the  very  existence  of  that  great  city  depends  upon  con- 
tingencies beyond  her  own  control ;  and,  in  the  event  of  divisions  and  collisions 
amongst  ourselves,  would  have  more  to  dread  than  any  other  spot  in  the  United  States. 
Have  gentlemen,  employing  these  threats,  ever  contemplated  the  absolute  certainty, 
that,  in  the  event  of  divisions  amongst  ourselves,  the  future  destinies  of  the  United 
States  must  be  determined  by  the  physical  force  of  foreign  nations?  And  then  ex- 
tended their  thoughts  to  tlie  douceurs  which  tliey  have  to  oifer,  for  the  purpose  of  ob- 
taining such  physical  force  .''  If  they  have  not  done  so  heretofore,  they  surely  have 
omitted  to  perform  a  most  essential  and  indispensable  duty  ;  and  he  begged  now  to  be 
indulged  in  calling  their  best  reflections  to  tJiat  iniportant  subject.  It  the  people  of 
Virginia  could  be  so  wild  and  so  foolish,  as  to  rush  forward  to  a  separation  of  the 
State,  let  the  enquiry  now  be  made,  wliat  douceurs  have  our  transmontane  brethren 
to  offer  for  the  physical  force  of  the  commercial  nations  of  Europe  ?  Nothing — lite- 
rally nothing;  whilst  the  people  on  the  East  side  of  the  mountains,  have  tlie  most  at- 
tractive and  influential  douceur  that  could  possibly  be  ofiered — commerce — the  most 
valuable  and  seductive  in  the  world.  Commerce — -consisting  of  the  most  suitable 
staples,  which  any  part  of  the  world  can  produce,  for  the  commercial  nations  of  Eu- 
rope ;  and  which  may  be  given  in  exchange  for  their  productions  equally  suited  to 
our  own  wants.  Hence  our  douceurs  might  consist  of  advantages,  not  sacrifices. 
Notwithstanding  these  convictions,  and  although  he  never  had  been  in  the  habit  of 
rnaking  professions  of  patriotism,  or  of  the  motives  which  govern  his  conduct,  he 
would  take  this  occasion  to  say,  that  he  would  deprecate  a  division  of  this  State,  or  of 
the  United  States,  as  much  as  any  gentleman  in  them.  But  he  felt  it  Jiis  duty  to 
speak  of  things  as  they  are — things  so  irresistibly  fixed,  in  the  relation  of  nations, 
that  neither  himself,  feeble  as  he  was,  however  he  might  wish  it,  nor  the  whole  power 
of  this  Convention — nor  of  the  United  States,  could  alter  or  avoid.  The  venerable 
gentleman  from  Loudoun,  had  expressed  his  doubts  whether  the  Government  of  the 
United  States  would  permit  a  division  of  this  State,  even  were  she  to  require  it.  He 
would  respectfully^  ask,  how  could  the  Government  of  the  United  States  prevent  it 
He  knew  that  there  was  a  clause  in  the  Constitution  which  required  the  consent  of 
Congress  to  the  separation  of  any  State  in  the  Union.  But  when  force  is  once 
brought  into  action,  it  puts  at  defiance  all  civil  regulations  whatever.  ( Inter  anva 
silent  leges.)  Whenever  this  is  the  case,  all  our  civil  relations  become  changed,  and 
we  must  look  to  force  alone  to  give  the  law.  In  that  case,  he  would  respectlullj'^  ask 
gentlemen,  how  the  General  Government  could  prevent  such  a  deprecated  calamity, 
if  it  would  ?  What  means  have  they,  which  they  could  employ  for  such  a  purpose  ? 
Could  it  be  prevented  by  degra.ding  us  still  furtiier  by  more  Tariffs,  or  by  physical 
force.''  These  means  would  be  feeble,  aggravating  and  incompetent.  He  would 
again  recur  to  the  remark  v/hich  he  had  before  made,  that  the  destinies  of  this 
country  would  not  be  settled  by  the  physical  force  of  this  country  alone  ;  and  whilst 
he  looked  at  that  circumstance  with  as  much  awe  and  regret  as  any  gentleman  on  this 
floor,  he  could  not  shut  his  eyes  to  what  was  passing  befoi-e  them.  Independently  of 
the  separation  of  this  State,  the  General  Government  has  already  produced  excite- 
ments enough  in  the  country  to  hazard  the  Union,  by  the  unprincipled  and  oppres- 
sive measures,  which  he  had  already  mentioned.  He  saw  in  the  newspapers  that  en- 
quiries had  already  commenced,  into  the  probable  effects  of  the  Tariff",  Internial  Im- 
provements, and  other  usurpations  of  the  General  Government  upon  the  Union  of 
these  States.  Mr.  G.  said  that  he  had  seen  some  most  able  and  eloquent  dissertati- 
ons, said  to  be  written  by  one  of  the  ablest  statesmen  and  patriots  in  the  United 
States,  (he  alluded  to  the  Rev.  Mr  .Channing  of  Boston,)  containing  inquiries,  into  the 
probable  separation  of  the  Union,  resulting  from  the  various  usurpations  of  the  Gene- 
ral Government,  but  particularly  from  the  Tariff"  and  Internal  Improvement  Acts.  " 
These  causes  he  seemed  to  think  were  at  least  sufficient  to  hazard  the  integrity  of  the 
Union. 

Mr.  G.  said,  that  he  had  gone  into  this  course  of  reflection  in  the  hope  of  attracting 
the  reflections  of  others,  and  bringing  about  conciliation  and  harmony  amongst  our- 
selves, but  he  greatly  feared  that  tliey  would  be  utterly  unavailing.  He  w-ould  now 
most  respectfully  ask  gentlemen,  seriously  to  reflect  upon  the  best  mode  of  avoiding 
our  own  embarrassments,  and  of  relieving  the  country  from  existing  alarms  and  diflS- 
culties.    The  best  that  had  occurred  to  him,  was,  to  banish  as  far  as  possible  our  own 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


255 


dissentions,  and  to  approach  to  unanimity  in  something — that  we  should  banish  our 
own  passions  and  prepossessions,  and  cahnly,  coolly,  and  confidentially  consult  with 
each  other,  as  to  what  could  be  done  with  a  nearer  approach  to  unanimity.  He  would 
Warn  gentlemen  against  the  effects  of  carrying  any  question — especially  one  of  great 
magnitude — by  a  lean  majority.  He  thought  nothing  good  could  be  gained  by  such 
a  proceeding.  The  country  never  could  be  tranquillized  so  long  as  the  people  see 
that  we  have  no  confidence  in  our  own  measures — measures  of  so  high  a  character  as 
imperiously  to  demand  both  our  own  confidence  and  theirs.  This  redeeming  spirit  of 
harmony,  of  confidence,  of  conciliation  and  concession,  should  commence  in  this 
Hall.  It  is  our  imperious  duty  to  be  the  first  in  making  manifestations  of  this  saving 
spirit  here.  Let  us  then,  with  a  magnanimous  disinterestedness  and  self-denial,  set 
a  noble  example  to  our  constituents,  and  thus  tranquillize  their  passions  and  relieve 
their  alarms.  He  would  ask  no  more  from  other  genilenien,  than  he  was  disposed  to 
yield  himself.  He  sincerely  wished  to  ascertain  the  propositions  for  amendment, 
which  would  command  the  confidence  of  the  greatest  majorities.  He  would  himself 
agree  to  amendments,  which  he  could  not  fully  approve,  provided  gentlemen  on  the 
other  side  would  make  similar  relaxations  on  their  part.  For  the  purposes  of  union 
and  harmony,  he  was  disposed  to  go  to  the  utmost  points  which  his  conscience  would 
permit;  but  he  should  deeply  deprecate  the  adoption  of  any  measure  whatever,  which 
would  not  command  the  confidence  of  a  great  majority.  Less  than  that,  he  was  per- 
fectly convinced,  Vv'ould  never  relieve  our  present  deplorable  embarrassments. 

There  was  one  impression  upon  his  mind,  which  he  wished  to  impress  upon  the 
minds  of  others  with  peculiar  emphasis.  It  was,  that  small  changes  could  never  pro- 
duce a  division  of  a  State,  whether  produced  by  unanimity  or  not;  whilst  great 
changes  would  at  least  hazard  such  a  result,  unless  unanimously  adopted ;  or  at  least 
by  a  majority  approaching  to  unanimity.  Great  changes  made  by  an  almost  equal 
balance  of  opinion,  are  the  best  calculated  to  produce  great  hazards,  and  will  neces- 
sarily do  so,  unless  checked  by  an  interposing  Providence.  In  this  stage  of  our  busi- 
ness he  had  no  specific  propositions  to  offer.  All  he  could  do,  v/as  to  throw  out  these 
ideas,  and  solemnly  to  pledge  himself  to  indulge  to  the  utmost,  a  spirit  of  conciliation 
and  concession.  He  earnestly  invited  other  gentlemen  to  turn  their  minds  towards 
making  propositions  of  conciliation,  and  in  that  case,  pledged  himself  to  do  so,  in  the 
further  progress  of  the  business  before  the  Convention.  But,  above  all  things,  he 
begged  to  guard  the  Convention  against  the  adoption  of  great  changes  by  lean  ma- 
jorities;  because,  as  he  said  at  the  beginning,  it  would  only  be  a  poor  triumph  of 
friends  over  friends,  and  could  not  possibly  eventuate  in  any  good  result. 

Mr.  G.  expressed  his  regret  at  having  detained  the  Committee  so  long,  and  pro- 
mised to  close  his  remarks,  with  only  two  or  three  further  reflections.  It  must  occur 
to  all,  that  the  task  of  mere  pulling  down,  is  an  easy  one.  Every  booby,  possessed  of 
sufficient  physical  power,  with  a  trowel  in  his  hand,  can  take  down  every  brick  of 
the  most  solid,  useful  and  magnificent  building,  erected  upon  the  true  principles  of  ar- 
chitectural science.  But  it  requires  thought,  care,  study  and  science,  to  build  up  one, 
which  shall  be  durable,  useful  and  ornamental,  upon  the  same  principles.  Such  a 
structure  is  now  before  us,  wisely  and  fearlessly  reared  up  for  us,  by  our  God-like 
forefathers,  in  the  midst  of  imminent  peril;  and  lie  feared,  greatly  feared,  that  every 
member  of  this  Convention,  with  the  best  intentions,  had  brought  here  a  trowel  in 
his  hand  to  take  down  his  brick.  He  sincerely  hoped  better  things  ;  and  should  con- 
tinue to  do  so,  although  hope,  he  feared,  would  be  unavailing.  He  said,  Mr.  Chair- 
man, is  it  possible  that  we  can  be  content  to  become  mere  dilapidators,  to  tear  down 
the  most  stupendous  flibrick,  which  has  proved  the  greatest  blessing  which  God,  in 
his  infinite  mercy,  has  bestowed  upon  us;  and  setup  nothing  better  in  its  stead 
And,  Sir,  ought  we  not  to  be  scrupulously  careful  how  we  set  up  any  thing,  which 
would  bear  but  a  poor  comparison  with  that  which  v/e  have  torn  down  ?  On  the  other 
hand,  how  honorable  would  it  be  to  contribute  our  mite  to  sustain  the  noble  institu- 
tions we  have  received  from  our  forefathers  : — to  give  them  support,  instead  of  doom- 
ing them  to  destruction.  Suppose  we  do  but  little.  We  shall  have  done  all  that 
could  be  required  of  us — all  that  we  conscientiously  could  do.  We  may,  then,  hono- 
rably return  home  with  satisfaction  to  ourselves  and  to  our  constituents.  Gentlemen 
have  asked,  and  particularly  the  venerable  geiatlemaii  from  Loudoun.  (Mr.  Monroe) 
emphatically  asked — what  is  to  be  the  effect  of  doing  nothing  ?  Wliat  is  to  be  the 
effect  of  going  home,  without  doing  something Aye,  Sir,  permit  me  to  reiterate  the 
question,  what  would  be  the  effect  of  doing  nothing.?  It  surely  would  be  a  great 
deal  better  than  doing  mischief.  But  no  one  calculates  on  doing  nothing.  All  are 
disposed  to  do  something — to  do  a  great  deal.  Let  us  then  unite.  Sir,  and  do  all  we 
can  do  with  unanimity  or  some  near  approach  to  it.  if  we  find  nothing  to  do,  we 
shall  do  a  great  deal  by  refusing  to  tear  dowm  this  noble  edifice.  We  can  then  go 
home  with  approving  consciences,  and  tell  our  constituents,  that  after  its  having  pas- 
sed through  the  severest  ordeal,  we  found  our  present  Constitution  better  than  we  ex- 
pected :  that  v/e  had  discovered  some  unthrifty  scions :  that  we  had  applied  the 


256 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTiOM. 


pruning  knife — cut  them  off — and  put  into  their  places  grafts  which  would  product 
good  fruits.  He  was  satisfied  that  we  could  not  discharge  the  great  duties  entrusted 
to  us — nor  satisfy  our  own  consciences  so  well  in  any  other  way  . 

He  hoped  to  be  indulged  in  making  another  remark.  Our  wise,  heroic,  patriotic 
forefathers  gave  us  this  blessed  Constitution.  They  framed  it  under  the  same  feel- 
ings of  zeal,  and  amidst  the  same  honest  differences  of  opinion  which  now  exist 
amongst  us.  But  tliey  succeeded  by  compromising,  and  by  sacrificing  all  their  varie- 
gated opinions  and  feelings  upon  the  altar  of  patriotism  and  virtue.  We  are  now 
called  upon  to  examine  and  improve  their  great  work.  In  performing  this  high  and 
honourable  task,  let  us  recollect  and  imitate  their  exalted  example. 

Mr.  G.  said— Mr.  Chairman,  with  pain  and  sorrow  of  heart,  I  speak  it — these  our 
Goil-like  forefathers  are  now  mouldering  in  a  state  of  oblivion  and  forgetfulness. 
Their  names  are  blotted  out  from  our  remembrance.  Ought  this,  Sir,  to  be  longer 
pftx'initted  If  so,  would  it  not  be  to  our  shame,  and  ingratitude But,  Sir,  it  is 
neither.  It  is  merely  the  effect  of  thoughtless  inattention.  Virginia  was  never  un- 
grateful. Virginia  never  can  be  ungrateful  so  long  as  she  is  composed  of  Virginians. 
A  stain  may  be  cast  upon  her  for  forgetfulness — for  inattention — but  she  is  incapable 
of  ingratitude.  VVhy,  then,  should  we  suffer  our  venerated  ancestors  to  sleep  longer 
in  oblivion  We  have  even  permitted  the  greatest  day  in  the  political  calendar,  when 
under  their  influence,  the  great  light  of  liberty  first  burst  forth  upon  a  benighted 
world,  to  be  also  lost  in  oblivion.  Yes,  Sir,  that  day,  the  20th  of  June,  has  become 
merged  in  the  4th  of  July,  which  has  been  permitted  to  usurp  all  its  own  appropriate 
honours.  Let  it  not,  then,  be  longer  said,  that  our  noble  forefathers  rest  in  oblivion. 
Instead  of  tearing  down  the  splendid  structure  they  have  raised,  instead  of  letting 
them  longer  sleep  in  silence,  let  us  call  them  from  their  tombs,  and  award  them  the 
hio-hest  posthumous  honours.  And  here  he  begged  to  be  permitted  to  renew  a  pro- 
position he  had  once  before  made,  to  testify  our  sacred  veneration  for  their  memories ; 
let  us  fill  with  their  busts  the  vacant  niches  in  this  Hall.  Let  us  fill  with  them  all 
the  niches  in  the  whole  Capitol ;  for  there  are  worthies  amongst  them  sufhciently 
numerous  to  fdl  the  whole.  Let  us  relieve  ourselves  from  the  sin  of  ingratitude,  by 
taking  them  from  their  silent  incarceration,  and  placing  them  where  they  will  be  seen 
and  venerated  by  every  true-hearted  Virginian — by  our  posterity  and  by  the  whola 
world,  to  the  end  of  time. 

Note. — (Accompanying  Mr.  Giles'' s  Speech.) 

Extract  fi'om  page  247,  vol.  2,  Raymond's  Elements  of  Political  Economy — "  There 
as  no  part  of  the  Statute  Book,  that  requires  such  frequent  revision  as  the  Tariff  Act, 
xilthougli  we  sometimes  hear  it  said,  that  a  tariff,  should  be  permanent,  and  seldom  if 
ever  changed,  but  this  is  a  great  error.  A  year  does  not  pass,  in  which  the  tariff 
upon  some  particular  articles  may  not  be  raised  with  advantage.  The  most  general 
lule  on  this  subject  is,  that  a  tariff  ought  not  to  be  reduced,  although  it  may  frequently 
require  to  be  raised." 

Again,  page  248 — The  reduction  of  a  tariff  is  one  of  the  harshest  and  most  vio- 
lent measures  that  a  Government  can  possibly  adopt." 

Comment. 

What  an  unblushing  spirit  of  avarice  is  here  displayed.?  The  manufacturers, 
■whose  insatiable  cupidity  seems  not  satisfied  with  the  extreme  injustice  of  the  present 
tariff,  are  still  to  be  upon  the  watch,  and  every  year  some  new  addition  is  to  be  made 
to  it.  Every  imported  article  is  to  be  strictly  watched,  and  if  not  already  burdened 
to  its  highest  pitch,  is  to  be  strained  up  annually  a  little  higher,  whilst  "  the  reduction 
of  a  tariff  is  one  of  the  harshest  and  most  violent  measures  that  a  Government  can 
possibly  adopt."  What  elementary  logic  !  What  political  morals  !  Every  occasion  is 
to  be  greedily  seized  upon,  to  add  to  the  plunder  of  the  proceeds  of  the  labour  of  one 
man,  and  give  them  to  another,  who  did  not  labour  for  them — h\xi  to  cease  from  fur- 
ther plundering,  is  "  one  of  the  harshest  and  most  violent  measures  that  a  Govern- 
ment can  possibly  adopt."  Is  this  also  the  doctrine  of  the  new  political  school .?  Is 
this  doctrine  to  be  honoured  by  the  sanction  of  its  future  enactments  ?  On  the  other 
hand,  the  writer  contends— that  the  practical  Government  is  now  called  upon  by  eve- 
ry motive  that  moral  honesty,  and  by  every  principle,  that  the  general  welfare  "  can 
suggest  to  suspend  this  plunder,  and  to  leave  to  every  individual  labourer,  the  proceeds 
of  his  own  honest  labours." 

The  rule  laid  down  in  the  foregoing  extracts  of  Raymond's  Political  Economy, 
has  been  scrupulously  obseiwed  since  the  year  1824.  New  subjects  for  liigher  du- 
ties— or  new  duties  have  been  hunted  up  and  brought  forth  from  that  time  to  tlie  pre- 
sent. What  an  encouragement  of  furtive  propensities  is  this  encouragement  of  manu- 
factures What  a  general  corruption  of  morals  1  The  manufacturer  is  authorized  and 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONTENTION. 


257 


empowered  by  law  to  pick  the  pockets  of  his  neighbour,  and  encouraged  to  sharpen, 
his  %vits  to  increase  his  plunder,  and  to  stop  his  plunder  would  be  the  essence  of  cru- 
elty.* 

2ylr.  Giles  Iiavina-  resumed  liis  seat,  the  Comiriittee  rose. 

3Ir.  Venabie  observed,  that  it  must  be  eA-ident  from  the  progress  which  had  as  yet 
been  made  in  the  business  of  tlie  Convention,  that  there  was  no  probability  that  it 
would  get  throuo-h  its  labors  before  the  meeting  of  the  Legislature.  The  present  Hall 
did  not  present  very  convenient  accommodation  to  those  who  were  desirous  of 
listening  to  the  debates.  They  attended  in  numbers,  not  as  he  believed,  irom  a  vain 
curiosit}-,  but  from  the  deep  interest  very  naturally  felt  in  what  was  doing  iiere ;  he, 
therefore,  thought  it  was  time  that  measures  s}K>uld  be  taken  to  jjrovlde  some 
other  place  of  meeting — with  which  view  he  offered  the  foUowing  resolution  : 

llesoived,  That  a  Committee  be  appointed  to  enquire  whether  a  convenient  room 
can  be  obtained  for  the  sitting  of  the  Convention,  should  they  judge  it  expedient  to 
retire  from  the  Legislative  Hall,  and  report. 

The  question  being  taken,  the  resolution  was  rejected  without  a  coimt;  and  there- 
upon, the  House  adjourned. 


^VEDXESDAY,  Xovxmeer  11,  1529.  • 

The  Convention  met  at  eleven  o'clock,  and  its  sitting  was  opened  with  prayer  by 
the  Rev.  Mr.  Horner  of  the  Cathohc  Chm'ch. 

On  motion  of  INIr.  P.  P.  Barbour,  the  House  again  went  into  Committee  of  the 
whole,  ^Ir.  Powell  in  the  Chair,  when, 

Mr.  JoHXso-v  rose  and  addressed  the  Committee  as  follows^ 

2vlr.  Chairman — Ti>e  question  under  consideration,  has  occupied  much  time,  in  the 
discussion,  and  no  doubt  much  more,  in  the  deep  deliberations  of  the  Comm-ttee.  Its 
great  importance  and  exceeding  delicac}-,  entitle  it  surely,  to  all  the  aid,  Avhich  tem- 
per, forbearance,  conciliation,  free,  frank  and  full  interchange  of  opinion,  laborious 
investigation  and  candid  ararument,  can  affijrd.  It  has  on  the  one  hand  encouraged 
the  most  animated  hopes,  and,  on  the  other,  alarmed  the  most  anxious  fears.  The 
whole  country  looks  to  it  with  intense  interest — convinced  that  on  its  issue  depends 
much  of  vreal  or  woe. 

We  are  engaged.  Mr.  Chairman,  in  a  contest  for  power — disguise  it  as  you  will — 
call  it  a  discussion  of  the  rights  of  man,  natural  or  social — call  it  an  enquiry  into  po- 
litical, expediency — imagine  yourself,  if  you  please,  presiding  over  a  school  of  philo- 
sophers, discoursing  on  the  doctrines  of  political  law,  for  the  instruction  of  mankind, 
and  the  improvement  of  all  human  institutions — bring  the  quesdon  to  the  test  oi  prin- 
ciple, or  of  practical  utility — still,  Sir.  ail  our  metaphysical  reasrning  and  cur  practi- 
cal rules,  all  our  scholastic  learning  and  political  wisdorii.  are  but  the  arms  employed 
in  a  contest,  which  involves  the  great  and  agitating  question,  whether  the  sceptre 
shall  pass  away  from  Judah,  or  a  lawgiver  from  between  her  feet. 

In  this  contest,  I  feel  a  peculiar  interest — ^because  I  stand  towards  the  parties  in  a 
relation  of  some  delicacy.  With  the  one.  are  mv  present  residence,  the  land  of  my 
nativity,  almost  all  the  friends  of  my  3-outh,  and  most  of  those  to  whom  my  atfections 
are  bound,  by  tlie  ties  of  aiiinity  and  blood — With  the  other,  are  my  pro])erty  and  my 
constituents — those  who  are  endeared  to  me,  by  a  residence  among  them  of  more 
than  twenty  years,  by  many  a  proof  of  recollected  kindness  and  fiiendsliip,  by  grati- 
tude for  early  patronage,  and  for  political  confidence,  bestowed  before  it  had  been 
earned,  and  continued  after  every  claim,  T  could  have  pretended  to  it,  had  been  lest 
by  my  removal  from  them.  In  this  state  of  divided  uil«_iimce  I  ouo-ht  perhaps  to 
have  taken  counsel  from  prudence,  and  have  chosen  the  part  of  neutrality.  But  I 
had  been  long  in  the  habit  of  considering  both  parties  to  this  controversy  as  children 
of  the  same  family,  constituent  and  inseparable  parts  of  the  same  community — scme- 
what  diversified,  it  is  true,  in  their  possessions,  their  pursuits,  their  manners  and  their 
character,  having  some  interests,  perhaps  not  altogether  in  accordance — nevertheless 
identified  in  the  leading  characteristics  of  a  plain  agriculti:ral,  republican  people, 
having  the  same  great  interests,  and  one  common  object,  the  integrity,  freedom,  hap- 
piness, and  glory  of  a  common  country.  I  had  long,  too,  cherished  the  fond,  perhaps 
the  delusive  hope,  that  it  was  possible  to  reconcile  all  differences,  to  appease  all  an- 
gry feelinofs,  to  remove  all  causes  of  jealousy,  and  to  unite  all  parts  of  the  communi- 
ty in  harmonious  action,  in  common  labor  for  the  common  weal ;  and  to  realize  this 
hope.  I  had  often  exerted  to  the  uttermost  my  humble  power.  1  could  not,  tb.erefore, 
at  this  most  interesting  crisis  in  public  affairs,  when  heated,  if  not  angry  controversy 

*See  Appendix,  for  Mr,  Giles^  address  to  the  Executive  Cornmittee,  as  prefatory  to  the  foregoiug 
speech. 

33 


258 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


was  expected  by  all ;  when  serious,  if  not  fatal  dissension  was  feared  by  many  ;  when 
all  might  be  lost  by  inattention  or  imprudence,  or  all  might  be  saved  by  care  and 
pains — I  could  not  decline  the  honorable  call  to  duty,  troai  my  old  constituents. 
I  could  not  refuse  the  trust,  when,  well  knowing  my  opinion,  they  confided  their 
great  interests  here  in  part  to  me,  and  left  me  at  full  liberty,  without  pledge  and  with- 
out instruction,  to  profit  by  the  experience  and  wisdom  of  those  around  me,  and  fol- 
lowing the  dictates  of  my  own  judgment,  to  shape  my  course,  with  a  single  view 
to  the  public  good. 

After  listenmg  attentively  to  every  thing  that  has  been  said — and  much  has 
been  ably  and  eloquently  said — I  aui  satisfied,  that  by  advocating  the  resolution 
of  the  Select  Committee,  and  resisting  the  proposed  amendment,  I  shall  best  discharge 
my  duty  to  my  constituents  and  my  country. 

Mr.  Chairman  :  I  am  no  friend  to  change — I  have  been  no  advocate  for  the  call  of 
this  Convention.  True,  I  have  thought  the  old  Constitution,  in  some  respects,  im- 
perfect in  theory,  and  defective  in  practice.  I  have  thought  its  principal  defect  that 
very  inequality  in  representation,  which  the  resolution  of  the  Select  Committee  pro- 
poses in  part  to  remedy. 

I  thought  it  also  a  defect  in  the  Constitution,  that  it  contained  no  provision  for  a 
just  apportionment  of  taxes,  or  just  distribution  of  the  burthens  of  the  Government, 
among  the  people  of  the  Commonwealth.  I  had  been,  for  some  years,  a  member  of 
that  branch  of  the  Legislature,  in  which  the  inequality  of  representation  was  most 
glaring.  I  represented  in  the  Senate,  a  district  composed  of  six  counties,  in  the  Val- 
ley, containing  then,  perhaps,  about  one-eighth  of  the  white  population  of  the  State, 
and  1  with  only  three  others,  represented  tlie  whole  country  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge, 
containing  about  one-third  of  the  white  population.  I  thought  I  perceived  the  inju- 
rious operation  of  this  inequality.  On  questions  of  local  concern,  I  had  often  seen 
the  interests  of  the  East  arrayed  against  those  of  the  West,  and  controversies  thence 
arising,  attended  with  much  excitement,  and  sometimes  with  great  asperity,  and 
angry  feeling.  It  had  occasionally  been  my  good  fortune  to  interpose  between  the 
contending  parties,  and  reconcile  their  differences.  But  I  was  satisfied  that  a  settled 
discontent  was  arising,  that  jealousies  were  daily  increasing,  which  threatened  to  fo- 
ment discord,  to  alienate  brother  from  brother,  and  to  countenance  the  opinion,  that 
there  were  important  differences  of  interest  in  the  different  parts  of  the  State,  which 
the  same  Government  would  not  equally  protect.  When  the  Western  people  com- 
plained, that  til ey  had  not  a  just  participation  in  the  power  of  the  Government,  they 
were  often  reproached  with  their  poverty,  and  almost  always  reminded,  that  they  did 
not  contribute  their  just  proportion  of  its  revenue.  The  Act  of  1782,  made  for  equa- 
lizing the  land  tax,  had  thrown  the  State  into  four  great  districts,  the  counties 
into  four  classes,  and  had  fixed  a  standard,  in  each  class,  of  the  average  value  of  the 
land  per  acre.  The  first  class  comprised  all  the  tida-water  counties,  with  several  of 
the  large  midland  counties,  and  the  standard  value  of  its  lands  per  acre,  was  ten 
shillings ; — the  second  class  comprised  the  other  midland  counties,  except  Pittsyl- 
vania and  Henry,  and  embraced  the  two  Valley  counties  of  Frederick  and  Berkeley, 
and  its  standard  per  acre  was  76-.  6d. — the  third  contained  Pittsylvania  and  Henry, 
with  the  Valley  counties,  not  included  in  the  second,  and  the  standard  value  of  its 
lands  was  5^.  6d. — to  the  fourth  belonged  the  trans-Alleghany  counties,  rated  at  the 
standard  value  of  3^.  per  acre.  This  standard,  probably  just  and  fair  at  the  time 
when  it  was  adopted,  had  in  process  of  time  become  unjust,  and  operated  injuriously. 
The  relative  value  of  land  in  the  several  districts  had  essentially  changed  ;  those 
of  the  Western  districts  having  risen,  and  approached  much  more  nearly  to  equality 
with  those  of  the  Eastern.  But  the  taxes  continued  to  be  imposed  according  to  the 
same  standard ;  in  consequence  whereof,  the  tide-water  district  was  unduly  bur- 
thened,  and  the  other  districts,  especially  the  third  and  fourth,  paid  less  than  they 
ought.  These  inequalities,  in  the  imposition  of  taxes,  and  in  the  representation 
in  the  Senate,  had  been  the  subject  of  frequent  discussion,  and  I  was  informed 
that  several  ineffectual  attempts  had  been  made  to  correct  them,  by  an  ordinary  act 
of  Legislation.  These  fruitless  efforts  served  only  to  increase  the  general  discon- 
tent, to  inflame  animosities,  and  by  giving  to  the  discontented  a  solid  reason  for 
objecting  to  the  organization  of  the  Government,  enabled  them  with  more  success  to 
seize  on  all  occasions  of  public  distress  or  popular  excitement,  and  turn  them  to  the 
purpose  of  rousing  a  spirit  of  heedless  reform.  Thus  it  happened,  that  in  1816,  the 
people  of  the  large  districts  being  disappointed  in  some  favorite  measure,  and  much 
dissatisfied  with  the  proceedings  of  the  Legislature,  were  persuaded  that  they  had 
been  grossly  injured;  that  the  cause  of  their  wrongs  was  to  be  found  in  the  unequal 
distribution  of  the  power  of  the  Government ;  and  that  their  remedy  was  to  be  sought 
in  a  general  Convention  to  reform  this,  and  many  other  fancied  or  real  defects  of  the 
Constitution,  Under  the  excitement  of  this  occasion,  that  meeting  in  Staunton  was 
held,  which  has  been  denominated  the  Staunton  Convention.  The  county  of  Au- 
gusta did  not  participate  in  the  feverish  excitement  which  then  prevailed,  and  while 
it  was  willing  to  seek  by  temperate  and  prudent  measures,  substantial  rehef  from  ac- 


DEBATES   OF   THE   CONTENTION.  259 

knowledged  evils,  it  was  unAvilling  to  encounter  the  hazard  of  general  reform.  It 
therefore  deputed  to  the  meetincr  two  members,  of  whom  I  was  one,  and  charged 
them  with  the  duty  of  endeavouring  to  infuse  into  the  proceedings  as  much  of  temper 
and  prudence  as  possible,  and  to  restrain  them  to  a  respectful  memorial,  asking  of  the 
Legislature  that  proper  measures  might  be  adopted  for  organizing  a  Convention  to 
amend  the  Constitution  of  the  State,  but  with  powets  limited  to  the  objects  of  equa 
lizing  the  representation  and  taxes,  and  of  providing  under  proper  cautions,  for  future 
amendments.  The  deliberations  of  this  meeting  resulted  in  a  memorial  to  the  Legis- 
lature, asking  a  general  Convention;  and  in  a  protest  by  a  small  minority,  to  which 
the  Augusta  deputies  belonged,  the  object  whereof  was  to  limit  the  powers  of  the 
Convention  to  the  three  subjects  Vv^hich  ]  have  mentioned.  The  memorial  and  pro- 
test were  laid  before  the  Legislature  at  their  session  of  1815,  and  a  bill  passed  the 
House  of  Delegates,  providing  that  the  sense  of  the  people  should  be  taken  on  the 
question,  wiiether  a  Convention  should  be  called,  with  powers  iimzited  to  these  three 
objects  and  one  other  only,  the  extension  of  the  Right  of  Sutlrage.  This  bill  was 
amended  in  the  Senate,  so  as  to  limit  the  powers  of  the  Convention  to  taxes  and 
representation  only,  and  was  laid  on  the  table  to  await  ihe  coming  of  a  bill  then  in 
progress,  for  reforming  the  Senatorial  Districts,  and  for  a  re-assessment  of  the  lands. 
This  bill  came  to  the  Senate,  and  passed  by  a  majority,  I  think,  of  one  :  the  bill  for 
the  Convention  having  been  rejected  by  a  majority  of  two.  Both  were  very  obnox- 
ious to  the  Eastern  members,  and  were  opposed  by  them :  both  were  acceptable  to 
me,  and_  advocated  by  me.  I  preferred  the  Convention  bill,  because  I  thought  it 
would  give  more  adequate  and  more  permanent  relief ;  but  when  it  was  lost,'^I  es- 
poused the  other,  though  its  operation  was  inconvenient  and  harsh,  and  its  relief  tem- 
porary. The  Convention  bill  was  in  truth,  preferred  to  its  rival,  by  a  large  majority 
of  the  Senate,  and  would  have  passed,  but  for  one  of  those  amusing  incidents  in  lea-is- 
lation,  by  which  false  calculations  of  majorities  sometimes  cheat  us  of  our  votes. 
[Here  Mr.  J.  related  an  anecdote,  shewing  that  one  of  the  Senators,  beino-  deceived 
in  his  calculations,  had  been  induced  to  give  a  vote,  which  secured  the  passage  of  the 
bill,  whicii  he  most  desired  to  deteat.J 

This  bill  reforming  the  districts  upon  the  basis  of  white  population  as  ascertained 
by  the  Census  of  IclO,  gave  to  the  country  beyond  the  Blue  Ridge,  nine  Senators. 
That  country'  had  then  aljout  its  due  share  in  the  representation  of  the  House  of  Dele- 
gates, upon  the  same  basis ;  and  an  adequate  provision  was  made,  for  a  just  appor- 
tionment of  the  taxes. 

Believing  that  the  Legislature  would  follow  this  precedent — would  preserve  some- 
thing like  a  practical  equality  of  representation,  in  both  Houses, by  occasional  reforms 
of  the  Districts,  and  by  the  division  of  counties,  I  was  content  to  submit  to  the  re- 
maining imperfections  in  the  Constitution,  rather  than  to  put  to  hazard  every  thing 
valuable  that  it  contained.  I  did  think  there  was  much  in  it.  worth  preserving.  I 
thought  it  suited  to  our  genius  and  character,  calculated  to  protect  our  rights  and  pro- 
mote our  interests — taking  it  "  all  in  all,"  comparing  it  with  every  Constitution  of 
which  1  had  any  knowledge,  and  especiall}^  with  those  which  our  extensive  confede- 
racy affords,  I  preferred  it  to  any  of  them; — and  I  venerated  it,  because  it  was  the 
work  of  our  wise  and  virtuous  ancestors  ;  a  child  of  the  Revolution,  born  with  the 
State,  and  consecrated  by  all  the  associations,  which  make  us  proud  of  our  country. 
I  have,  therefore,  ever  since  the  session  of  1816,  opposed  the  call  of  a  Convention, 
whether  limited  or  general,  and  have  laboured  much  to  prevent  it.  Step  by  step  have 
I  followed  the  march  of  my  noble  friend  from  Chesterfield,  in  the  campaigns  he  has 
made  in  defence  of  the  Constitution,  and  though  I  have  not  emulated  the  gallantry  or 
prowess  of  my  leader,  he  will  bear  me  witness  that  1  have  been  a  faithful  soldier,  and 
that  I  never  laid  down  my  arms,  till  the  victory  was  fairly  won  from  us.  It  was  not 
till  a  majority  of  the  freeholders  had  desired  the  call  of  a  Convention,  that  my  oppo- 
sition to  it  ceased.  From  that  time,  my  friend  from  Chesterfield,  and  all  our  other 
wise  men,  I  believe,  united  in  opinion,  that  the  will  of  the  people  should  be  obeyed, 
that  the  Convention  should  be  organized  without  delay,  and  that  all  the  subjects  of 
complaint  should  be  considered,  and  as  far  as  possible  adjusted. 

1  have  detained  you,  Mr.  Chairman,  with  these  explanations,  because  I  thought  them 
due  to  myself,  if  they  were  not  strictly  due  to  the  Committee.  I  neither  expect  nor 
desire,  that  the}^  should  recommend  to  jonv  favourable  attention,  the  poor  remarks  I 
have  to  offer,  on  the  great  question  in  debate.  These  remarks  I  shall  submit,  with  a 
consciousness,  that  they  are  but  little  worth;  though  with  an  humble  trust,  that  if 
they  have  any  value,  it  wiil  not  be  lost  on  the  candour  and  intelligence  of  the  Com- 
mittee. 

The  first  duty,  perhaps,  which  I  owe  to  the  Committee,  is  to  acknow^ledge  an  error, 
into  which  it  seems  I  had  fallen,  at  an  early  stage  of  your  proceedings,  in  not  appro- 
ving the  order  of  debate,  which  was  proposed  by  the  gentleman  firom  Norfolk.  (Mr. 
Taylor,)  who  no  longer  holds  a  seat  among  us.  1  had  been  weak  enough  to  suppose, 
that  we  had  already  learned  the  rudiments  of  poktical  science — that  we  had  not 


260 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONTENTION* 


come  here  to  be  taught  the  horn-book  of  politic^ — to  be  schooled  and  lectured  on  the 
elements  of  Goveniinent;  that  a  great  ])r;>portion  of  this  Convention,  at  least,  had 
been  selected  for  their  presumed  knowledge  of  its  doctrines,  and  their  long  experi- 
ence in  public  aifairs.  Bat,  my  friends  tell  me  I  was  wrong,  and  I  am  compelled  to 
acknowledge  it,  by  the  course  of  argument,  v/hich  some  of  our  adversaries  have  pur- 
sued. It  was  the  misfortune  of  my  friend  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Cooke.)  of  falling- 
into  a  similar  error, — to  suppose  that  there  were  settled  principles  in  gvt  Govern- 
ment; at  least,  that  they  were  clearly  and  fully  enunciated,  in  our  Declaration  of 
Riorhts,  and  that  he  had' succeeded  in  proving  all  that  was  necessary,  when  he  had 
shewn,  that  the  proposition  which  he  advocated,  was  sustained  by  these  principles, 
and  that  they  condemned  that  which  he  opposed.  This  opinion,  and  the  argument 
founded  upon  it,  have  furnished  the  apology  for  a  discursive  enquiry  into  the  natural 
rights  of  man.  The  A-ery  eloquent  gentleman  from  Northanjpton,  (Mr.  Upshur.) 
condemning  abstract  doctrines  and  metaphysical  reasoning,  as  misapplied  here,  has 
indulged  himself,  in  a  very  elaborate  course  of  metaphysical  reasoning,  and  refined 
abs-tiraction  :  lias  cast  his  eye  through  all  time  ;.  appealed  to  all  history  >  vainly  endea- 
vored to  imagine  uni;/iaginable  things;  conjectured  a  state  of  nature,  which  he  sup- 
poses never  to  have  existed ;  endeavored  to  ascertain  its  laws,  and  finding  not  evert 
light  enough  res])ecting  them,  to  guide  him  in  a  simple  enumeration  of  whole  num- 
bers, or  in  counting  a  majority,  has  at  last  arrived  at  the  bold  conclusion — bold,  he 
himself  seemed  to  consider  it — tJiat  there  were  no  principles  in  Government.  We 
cannot,  Mr.  Chairman,  understand  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  according  to 
the  literal  import  of  his  phrase.  His  own  principles  are  too  well  settled — his  charac- 
ter and  talents  are  too  well  known,  and  too  highly  esteemed,  to  allow  us  for  a  mo- 
ment to  believe,  that  he  would  deny  to  the  science  of  Government,  those  elemen- 
tary truths,  which  constitute  its  principles — without  which,  all  reasoning  concerning 
it,  is  destitute  of  foundation,  and  incapable  of  conducting  us  to  any  conclusions* 
He  was  betrayed  into  the  1  mgunge  he  has  used,  by  an  over-anxiety  to  withdraw  from 
hi&  adversaries,  the  aid  of  those  settled  doctrines,  on  which  they  have  rested  their  ar- 
gument, to  persuade  us,  that  these  doctrines  are  mere  abstractions;  and  to  bring  the 
question  in  discussion,  to  the  test  of  expediency.  Indeed,  he  has  told  us,  that  every 
question  of  Givernment,  is  a  question  of  expediency  ;  tmd  that  every  Governmjent 
should  be  constructed,  not  with  reference  to  original  principles,  but  v/ith  a  sole  view  to 
the  chai'acter  and  circumstances  of  the  people,  for  whom  it  is  ordained.  Admit  this 
doctrine  of  expediency — admit  the  propriety  of  conforming  the  Government  to  the 
character  and  circumstances  of  the  people — and  no  one  admits  it  more  readily  than 
I  do — yet  it  does  not  follow,  that  there  are  no  principles,  by  which  to  decide  the 
question  -  f  expediency,  none  to  aid  in  constructing  the  Government,  so  as  to  make 
it  suitable  to  the  people.  The  plan  of  every  building,  for  the  use  of  man,  presents  a 
question  of  expediency,  on  which  the  purposes  for  which  it  is  destined,  and  the  cir- 
cumstances of  the  tenant,  are  to  be  duly  considered  ;  but  no  wise  man  would  disre- 
gard, in  its  structure,  those  principles  of  architecture,  Vv'hich  belong  to  the  humblest 
cottage,  as  well  as  to  the  loftiest  temple.  Is  it  more  v/ise,  by  representing  the  prin- 
ciples of  our  Government,  as  metaphysical  abstractions,  furnishing  no  aid  to  the  de- 
liberations of  the  Statesman,  no  safe  guide  to  his  conduct,  to  disparage  those  prin- 
ciples in  our  estimation,  endanger  disloyalty  to  the  Government  which  rests  upon 
them,  and  confound  all  our  political  reasoning  ?  This  has  not  been  the  wisdom  of 
ancient  or  of  modern  times.  From  the  days  of  Plato,  down  to  the  period  of  the  last 
Southern  Review,  wise  men  have  labored  to  establisl)  the  principles  of  Government, 
to  inculcate  political  truths,  to  recommend  them  to  the  respect  of  mankind,  and  to 
place  them  in  the  hands  of  Statesmen,  as  guides  to  direct  their  measures,  and  as 
weapons  to  defend  tliera.  The  author  of  Publms,  who  hcd  profoundly  studied  these 
principles,  and  understood  these  truths,  commences  his  thirty-first  number  with  the 
postulate,  that  "  In  disquisitions  of  every  kind,  there  are  certnin  primary  truths,  or 
first  principles,  on  which  all  subsequent  reasonings  mmst  depend." 

For  the  primary  truths,  which  belong  to  this  discussion,  we  can  look  no  where, 
with  so  much  propriety,  as  to  that  solemn  act,  which  announces  the  doctrines  of 
our  revolution — thnt  ''Declaration  of  Riglits,"  which  proclaims  the  principles  per- 
taining to  the  Government  of  a  free  people,  and  is  made  the  basis  and  foundation" 
of  our  own.  This  Declnration,  Mr.  Chairman,  faithfully  embodies  the  doctrines, 
which  gave  to  Algernon  Sydney  his  crown  of  martyrdom,  and  to  John  Locke  inipei- 
ishable  fame.  TJiese  distinguished  men,  inspired  by  the  spirit  of  freedom,  which  the 
history  of  the  English  Government  had  infused  into  the  people,  and  emboldened  by 
the  accessions  which  the  rights  of  the  people  ha.d  gradually  gained  from  the  power  of 
the  Crown,  openly  assailed  the  slavish  doctrines  by  which  the  parasites  of  power  had 
erideavored  to  defend  the  tyranny  of  the  Stuarts,  denounced  and  confuted  the  dogmas 
of  Sir  Robert  Fihner,  which  asserted  the  divine  right  of  Kings,  and  trticed  the  origin 
of  Government  to  its  legitimate  foundation,  the  w^ili  of  the  people.  Guided  by  the 
experience  of  their  own  Government,  enlightened  by  the  history  of  all  otlierSj  and 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


261 


above  all,  examining;,  with  the  sagacity  of  wise  men,  the  natural  and  unvarying  re- 
lations, between  the  governors  and  the  governed,  they  _  maintained  those  doctrines, 
which  the  vVhiu-s  ift-  England  partially  recognized  in  their  Constitution  at  the  revolu- 
tion of  168S,  and  which°the  American  Statesmen  made  the  basis  of  their  Govern- 
ments at  the  revolution  of  1776.  Ought  these  doctrines  to  be  treated  as  vain  ab- 
stractions, metaphysical  subtleties,  visionary  theories?  Ought  they  not  to  be  ac- 
knowledged as  s  )lemn  truths,  confessed  as  the  articles  of  our  political  faith,  made 
the  standard  of  our  political  conduct  ?  Ought  we  not,  as  we  regard  the  permanency 
of  our  institutions,  to  recommend  them  to  tlie  respect  and  deference  of  the  present 
generation,  to  the  lo^^e  and  veneration  of  posterity  ?  "  To  recall  men  to  original  max- 
ims is  generally  rec  dling  them  to  virtue  — this  is  the  language  of  a  distinguished 
political  v/riter ;  and  is  the  language  of  truth,  which  does  not  require  the  support  of 
authority.  The  advocates  for'^liberty,  the  friends  of  good  government  in  all  time, 
have  endeavored  to  inculcate  respect  and  reverence  for  principles,  and  have  thought 
it  wise  to  ho]d  up  high  standards  of  excellence  for  the  emulation  of  the  people. 
Plato's  Republic  was  not  written  with  the  vain  hope  that  its  perfection  v/ould  be  re- 
alized ;  but  with  a  viev/  to  inspire  a  love  of  excellence,  and  create  emulation.  Cice- 
ro's work  De  Republica  Was  written  for  the  purpose  of  recalling  the  Roman  peeple 
to  the  fundamental  principles  of  their  Government,  and  of  recommending  them  to 
their  affections  and  their  reverence.  But  it  came  too  late  to  reform  the  degeneracy 
of  the  age,  or  to  preserve  the  freedom  or  the  glory  of  Rome.  The  celebrated  Ed- 
mund Burke,  who  dreaded  the  contagion  of  French  principles,  and  the  levelling  hand 
of  French  equality  quite  as  much  as  any  good  republican  liere  can  do,  when  with  so 
much  eloquence  and  ability  and  prophetic  talent,  he  traced  the  causes  of  the  French 
revolution,  deplored  its  sanguinary  excesses,  pointed  out  its  errors,  and  indicated  its 
dangerous  tendencies,  when  he  endeavored  to  allay  the  evil  spirit  of  reform  which  was 
rising  in  England,  and  to  warn  his  country ni€n  against  the  ruinous  exam.ple  which 
they  seemed  disposed  to  imitate.  What  did  he  appeal  to,  as  most"  dear  to  Enirlish- 
men.'  He  appealed  "to  the  word  and  spirit  of  that  immortal  law,"  the  English  De- 
claration of  R-ight.  It  is  to  tlie  word  and  spirit  of  our  Declaration  of  Rights,  to  that 
law,  which  we  should  desire  to  make  immortal,  tlsat  in  my  humble  judgment  we 
should  at  all  times  appeal,  not  only  to  guard  us  against  the  danger  of  heedless  reform, 
but  to  guide  us  in  making  v^^hclesome  amendments. 

We  have  been  taught,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  the  education  of  a  people  should  always 
be  conducted  with  reference  to  the  principles  of  then-  Government,  in  order  that  sen- 
timents of  loyalty  may  be  sown  in  their  early  affections.  The  same  wisdom  in- 
structs us  to  mould  the  subordinate  laws,  in  conformity  to  the  fundamental  lav/  of  • 
the  country.  It  is  in  the  spirit  of  these  lessons,  tliat,  having  adopted  the  Republican 
form  of  Government,  we  have  constantly  inculcated  the  love  of  liberty,  of  virtue, 
of  simple,  unostentatious  manners,  and  tiiat,  to  prevent  an  iiijurious  inequality  in  the 
fortunes  and  conditions  of  men,  the  laws  have  been  passed  which  abolish  entails,  and 
the  rights  of  primogeniture.  The  act  abolishing  entails,  which  is  coeA-al  with  our 
Government,  and  that  prescribing  the  law  of  descents,  which  very  quickly  succeeded 
the  war  of  the  revolution,  were  not  founded  on  any  supposed  injustice  or  intrinsic  - 
impropriety,  in  limiting  the  estate  of  the  parent  to  his  remotest  descendants,  or  ma- 
king the  first-born  son,  the  exclusive  heir,  but  were  founded  on  reasons  ])urelv  politi- 
cal;  reasons,  which  induced  our  ancestors  to  believe,  that  however  v/ise,  however 
necessary  in  England,  for  the  preservation  of  their  Governm.ent  it  might  be,  to  pre- 
serve family  distinctions  and  perpetuate  family  Vv^ealtli,  such  distinctions  and  such 
wealth  were  unsuited  to  a  Republican  Government,  and  that  the  laws  for  promotino- 
them,  would  be,  here,  not  less  impracticable  than  unwise. 

It  is  submitted  to  this  Committee,  whether  all  these  considerations  do  not  recom- 
mend to  their  most  resi)ectful  attention,  tlie  principles  which  lie  at  the  foundation  of  - 
our  Government.  If  they  think  so,  it  is  hoped  they  will  not  deem  the  time  misspent, 
which  shall  be  employed  in  further  consideration  of  the  Bill  of  Rights,  where  these 
principles  are  declared.  In  performing  this  duty,  I  shall  not  follow  the  example  of 
the  judge  who  condemned  Zadig  to  death,  upon  the  evidence  of  the  torn  fragments 
of  his  manuscript : — I  shall  not  sunder  the  different  parts  of  the  same  instrument,  the 
text  from  the  contemporaneous  commentary,  tlie  Declaration  of  Rights,  from  the 
Constitution,  based  upon  it  at  the  same  time,  and  by  the  same  hands. 

The  first  article  declares,  "that  all  men  are  by  nature  free  and  independent;  and 
have  certain  inherent  rights,  of  which,  when  they  enter  into  a  state  of  society,  they 
cannot,  by  any  compact,  deprive  or  divest  their  posterity :  namely,  the  enioyment  of 
hfe  and  hberty,  with  the  means  of  acquiring  and  possessing  property,  and  pursuino- 
and  obtaining  happiness  and  safety."  The  first  line  of  this  article,  is  taken  almost 
literally  from  Locke,  who  declares,  that  "  all  men  are  by  nature  free,  equal  and  inde- 
pendent"— and  it  has  given  rise  to  the  discussion  here,  concernino-  the  natural  rights  of 
man.  Gentlemen  have  endeavored  to  investigate  those  rights,  in  a  condition  of  man 
v/hich  is  supposed  to  have  preceded  society  ;  a  condition,  which  they  have  termed  the 


262 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


state  of  nature.  Not  being-  able  to  satisfy  themselves,  that  such  a  condition  of  man 
ever  existed,  they  reasonably  conclude,  that  the  rights  pertaining  to  it,  cannot  be  as- 
certained, and  that  wliatever  they  may  be,  they  cannot  nitluence  his  rights,  in  a  state 
of  civil  society.  1  readily  concur  in  the  opinion,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  such  unsocial 
condition  of  man  has  never  existed,  unless  under  such  accidental  circumstances  as  at- 
tended the  fabled  case  of  Robinson  Crusoe,  quoted  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield, 
except  the  single  instance  with  which  the  Bible  history  counnences.  That  we  know 
was  of  short  duration,  conthiuing  only,  while  "  man  the  hermit  sighed"— and  termi- 
nating, when  "  woman  smiled"  and  dispelled  forever  the  gloom  of  his  solitude. 
Man  was  created  for  society  ;  and  social  intercourse  is  as  much  a  law  of  his  nature, 
as  that  he  should  support  his  existence  by  food,  promote  his  comfort  by  raiment,  pro- 
cure supplies  by  labor,  protect  himself  from  aggression  by  force.  In  every  state  of 
society — whether  savage  or  civilized — whether  patriarchal  or  political— laws  arising 
from  the  nature  of  man,  from  his  weakness,  his  dependance,  his  wants,  his  desires, 
his  appetites,  his  passions,  and  his  inlelUgence,  nuist  necessarily  govern  his  social  re- 
lations— regulate  his  riglits  and  duties.  These  are  deduced  by  reason,  from  the  known 
character  and  condition  of  man,  and  these  are  the  laws  of  his  nature.  They  accompa- 
ny hhn  in  all  conditions  of  life,  and  it  is  to  them,  that  the  Bill  of  Rights,  m  this  first 
article  refers.  This  article  means  not  to  declare  those  political  rights,  which  may  be 
varied  by  compact,  but  those  natural  rights  only,  which  spring  from  the  invariable  re- 
lations of  man  to  society.  It  affirms  to  all  equal  freedom  and  equal  independence,  as 
the  gift  of  nature — not  equal  political  power — because  that  arises  from  compact  be- 
tween those,  who,  having  equal  freedom  and  independence,  have  associated  together, 
and  regulated  by  agreement,  the  political  power  of  the  society.  It  is  reserved  tor  the 
fifth  article  to  declare  the  political  power  of  the  respective  members  of  society,  by  in- 
dicating the  basis  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage — and  by  referring  us  for  guidance  in  this 
behalf — not  to  natural,- but  to  conventional  law. 

The  first  article  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  has  another  function,  not  less  important  than 
the  declaration  of  equal  freedom  and  independence,  and  certainly  more  practical  in 
its  character — the  declaration  of  those  inherent  rights,  of  which  men  do  not  and  can- 
not divest  their  posterity  by  any  compact  of  society.  As  Government  is  instituted 
for  the  protection  of  life,  liberty,  property,  to  secure  happiness  and  safety,  so  no  Go- 
vernment can  be  legitimate  to  which  these  are  sacrificed.  It  is  happy  tor  us  that  this 
part  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  has  been  solemnly  adjudged  to  be  constitutional  law  ;  for,  to 
it  the  citizen  owes  the  protection  of  his  property  from  the  power  of  the  Govern- 
ment. 

The  second  article  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  is  a  further  affirmance  of  the  doctrines  of 
Locke  and  Sydney,  in  opposition  to  Sir  Robert  Filmer;  recognizes  the  people,  not  the 
Prince,  as  the  fountain  of  political  power,  and  declares  magistrates  to  be  their  trustees, 
answerable  to  them,  not  their  irresponsible  masters.  No  one  here  has  denied  these 
to  be  the  genuine  doctrines  of  our  Government. 

The  third  article  affirms,  that  Government  is  instituted  for  the  common  benefit — 
that  "  that  is  the  best  which  is  capable  of  producing  the  greatest  degree  of  happiness 
and  safety,  and  is  most  effectually  secured  against  the  danger  of  mal-administration ; 
and  that  when  any  Government  shall  be  found  inadequate  or  contrary  to  these  pur- 
poses, a  majority  of  the  people  hath  an  indubitable,  unalienable  and  indefeasible  right 
to  reform,  alter  or  abolish  it,  in  such  manner  as  shall  be  adjudged  most  conducive  to 
the  public  weal."  Here  we  have  plainly  declared  the  object  of  Government,  the 
standard  of  its  excellence,  and  the  rule  for  its  reform — its  object,  the  common  bene- 
fit ;  the  test  of  its  excellence,  its  capacity  to  attain  that  object,  by  producing  the  great- 
est degree  of  happiness  and  safety,  and  being  secured  against  mal-adnnnistration  ; 
and  the  rule  for  its  reform,  the  judgment  of  the  majority  pronouncing  it  inadequate 
to  its  purposes,  and  altering  it,  with  a  sole  view  to  tiie  public  weal.  We  are  saved 
then  the  necessity  of  looking  to  natural  law  for  the  right  of  the  majority  to  reform; 
we  have  positive  conventional  law  ;  the  most  solemn  declaration  on  the  face  of  our 
social  compact,  that  the  majority  have  a  right,  an  indubitable,  unalienable  and  inde- 
feasible right,  to  reform,  alter  or  "abolish.  It"is  true,  that  this  power  is  to  be  employed 
when  the  Government  is  found  inadequate  to  its  object,  the  common  benefit,  and  must 
be  employed  with  a  single  view  to  the  public  good. 

But,  who  is  to  judge  whether  the  Government  has  been  adequate  to  the  object  of  its 
institution  ;  who  to  judge  of  the  manner  of  its  reform  ?  Surely  the  people,  who  or^ 
dained  it,  the  people  for'^whose  happiness  and  safety  it  was  instituted  ;  the  people,  to 
a  majority  of  whom  the  right  of  reform  is  declared  unquestionably  to  belong— the  peo- 
ple are  the  sole,  the  exclusive  judges.  It  is  their  duty,  I  admit,  to  hsten  with  all  de- 
ference and  respect  to  the  counsels  of  their  wise  men,  who  may  tell  them — "  We 
have  been  long  and  attentive  observers  of  the  operations  of  your  Government ;  we 
have  compared  it  with  all  the  Governments  of  the  world,  ancient  and  modern ;  we 
are  satisfied  it  is  the  best  that  ever  existed  ;  we  can  demonstrate  that  it  has  fulfilled 
all  the  great  ends  of  its  institution;  that  it  has  secured  you  all  the  happiness  and  safe- 


DEBATES    OF   TPIE  CONTENTION. 


263 


ty,  which  it  is  the  province  of  Government  to  secure,  and  that  an  attempt  to 
change  it  essentiallv,  is  a  wanton  experiment  to  make  that  better  which  is  already 
good^'bevond  the  coinmon  lot  of  human  institutions  ;  it  is  to  sport  with  the  blessmgs 
of  Providence,  and  encounter  the  imminent  hazard  of  losing  all  tliat  is  valuable  in 
practice,  in  the  vain  pursuit  of  ail  that  is  perfect  in  theory."^  After  attentively  and 
impartially  considering  all  the  arguments  adduced  to  sustain  these  counsels,  and  care- 
fully weicrhing  every''  fact  on  which  they  rest,  if  convinced  by  them,  it  is  a  solemn 
duty  to  themselves,  to  posterity,  and  to  all  mankind,  to  reject  aU  propositions  to  re- 
form, to  preserve  a  model  of  so  much  excellence  as  an  example  to  the  world,  and  as 
a  rich  inheritance  to  the  generations  that  are  to  come.  But,  if  they  are  not  convinc- 
ed ;  if,  on  the  contrary,  their  judgments  are  satisfied,  tliat  they  have  not  enjoyed  the 
decree  of  happiness  and  safety,  which  good  Government  ought  to  assure  ;  that  their 
Government  is  not  only  imperfect  in  theory,  but  defective  in  practice  :  that  its  defects 
may  be  safely  remedied,  and  its  practical  g-ood  much  enhanced — then  there  is  but  one 
answer  which  they  can  give  to  these  counsels  :— We  acknowledge  your  experience, 
joni  wisdom,  your  virtue — the  great  superiority  of  your  attainments,  and  tiie  entire 
sincerity  of  yoiar  opinions — we  admire  the  plain,  candid  and  manly  language,  in 
which  you  have  spoken  disagreeable  truths — we  thank  you,  sincerely  thank  you,  for 
the  parental  solicitude  with  which  you  have  raised  your  warning  voice  ;  but  you  must 
allow,  that  we  too  have  some  experience  in  the  operations  of  our  own  Government — 
that  we  have  enjoyed  its  blessings,  suffered  its  evils,  and  have  seme  opportunity  of 
judCTincr,  vrhether  the  one  may  be^abated,  or  the  other  increased — You  must  remem- 
ber"thdt  you  are  endeavoring  to  prove  to  us,  by  rhetoric  and  logic,  that  we  are  pros- 
perous and  happy,  when  our  own  senses,  and  the  reflections  of  our  own  minds,  have 
conducted  us  to  a  different  conclusion — ours  is  the  stake  ir.  this  Government — ours  the 
loss,  if  ill  should  result — ours  the  gain,  if  happiness  should  attend  our  reform — ours, 
therefore,  is  the  province  to  judge,  and  you  must  excuse  us.  if  dissenting  from  your 
opinions,  we  feel  bound  to  follow  the  dictates  of  our  ov.m  judgments." 

The  people,  then,  2^Ir.  Chairm.an,  must  judge  for  themselves,  when  the  casus  fade- 
ris  has  occurred,  when  the  defect^;  of  the  Government  require  reform: — and  judging 
that  time  to  have  arrived,  the  unquestionable  right  to  reform  belongs  to  the  majority. 
But  to  the  majority  of  whom  .'  A  majority  of  the  communitv  is  the  answer  which 
the  Bill  of  Riffhts  crives ;  and  that  answer  is  perfectly  intelligible,  when  we  consider 
in  connexion."  the  "several  clauses  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  and  the  Constitution.  The 
community  referred  to  in  the  third  article,  cannot  mean  tlie  whole  people,  because  they 
never  are,  and  never  can  be  consulted,  eitJier  in  the  form.ation  of  the  organic  law,  or 
in  the  administration  of  the  Government.  It  can  mean  none  other  tlian  those  to 
whom,  in  the  sixth  article  the  Ricrht  of  Suffrage  is  declared  to  belong — those  to  whom 
the  Constitution  itself  was  submitted  to  be  carried  into  effect — tlie  qualified  voters. 
To  tliose.  then,  enjovino;  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  it  was  submitted,  whether  they  would 
accept  or  reject  the  Constitution,  by  electing'  or  refusing  to  elect  the  members  of  the 
General  Assembly.  To  them,  the  Convention  held  in  effect  this  lano-uage : — ''We 
have  formed  a  Constitution  for  your  Gg  .  ernment,  and  have  declared  the  rights  which 
pertain  to  you  and  your  posterity  as  the  basis  on  which  that  Constitution  rests: — we 
have  declared  that  it  is  instituted  for  the  common  benefit,  and  that  when  it  shall  be 
found  inadequate  to  this  purpose,  a  majority  of  you  have  an  indubitable,  unalienable, 
and  indefeasible  riofht  to  reform,  alter  or  abolish  it,  in  such  manner,  as  shall  be  ad- 
judo-ed  most  conducive  to  the  public  weal.  We  believe  it  vrell  suited  to  your  con- 
dition— well  calculated  to  attain  its  object ; — but,  if  experience  shall  teach  you  that 
we  are  mistaken,  the  corrective  is  in  the  power  of  a  majority  of  you,  who  may  alter, 
reform  or  abolish,  as  you  may  judge  most  conducive  to  the  public  weal; — it  is  refer- 
red to  your  wisdom  to  accept  or  reject."'  Thus  submitted;it  was  accepted  by  the  free- 
holders, the  qualified  voters,  without  opposition;  and  their  act,  by  which  they  elect- 
ed the  members  of  the  first  General  Assembly,  was  as  effectual,  if  not  as  solemn  an 
adoption  of  the  Constitution  and  Declaration  of  Rights,  as  if  an  unanimous  vote  of 
approbation  had  been  given  on  a  formal  call  of  the  Ayes  and  Noes.  I  never  enter- 
tained any  doubt  of  the  validity  of  our  Constitution,  for  the  want  of  a  formal  ratifica- 
tion ; — or,  if  any  doubts  on  that  subject  were  ever  impressed  on  my  youthful  mind, 
such  as  my  friend  from  Chesterfield  once  felt,  both  he  and  I  must  have  been  disabused 
of  them,  I  think,  by  the  lectures  of  the  distinguished  master  under  whom  we  studied 
our  professions,  and  whose  memory  we  both  revere.  The  Constitution  beincr  thus 
accepted  by  the  qualified  voters,  they  became  the  parties  to  the  social  compact;  they 
shared  the  sovereignty,  they  constituted  the  coiumimiti/.  to  the  majority  of  whom  the 
right  of  reform  belongs. 

It  does  not  necessarily  follow,  from  the  right  of  the  majority  to  reform  the  Consti- 
tution, that  the  powers  of  ordinary  legislation  should  be  vested  in  the  majority.  This, 
I  agree,  is  a  question  of  expediency,  which  it  belongs  to  the  majority  to  decide — and 
in  deciding  it,  they  are  bound  to  loik  to  the  great  object  of  Government,  the  comriioru 
benefit,  and  to  enquire,  by  what  organization,  it  v»"ill  be  capable  of  producing  the  great^ 


264 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


test  degree  of  Jiappiness  and  safety,  and  he  most  effectually  secured  against  the  danger  of 
mal-administrution.  Upon  the  result  of  this  ixiteresting  enquiry,  it  depends  whether 
the  majority  should  hold  in  their  own  hands  the  power  of  legislationj  or  confide  it  to 
the  minority.  But  this  doctrine  of  expedienc}^,  Mr.  Chairman,  not  well  understood, 
is  of  dangerous  tendency,  and  calculated  grossly  to  mislead  us.  In  adopting  it  as  the 
guide  of  ou-r  deliberations  here,  it  may  become  us  to  bestow  a  moment's  attention  on 
its  character.  Enlightened  and  liberal  expediency,  which  looks  to  consequences  im- 
mediate and  remote,  calculates  etFects,  temporary  and  enduring,  and  regards  all  inter- 
ests, partial  and  general,  which  in  short  has  the  lasting  public  good  for  its  object,  and 
truth  and  justice  for  its  guides,  lies  at  the  foundation  of  moral  and  political  lav/,  and  is 
the  true  test  of  moral  and  political  propriety  : — while  that  blind  and  narrow  expedi- 
ency which  regards  only  immediate  consequences,  temporary  effects,  and  partial  in- 
terests, which  has  for  its  object  the  present  good,  disregards  the  precepts  of  justice, 
and  delivers  itself  up  to  the  guidance  of  sophistry,  is  the  parent  of  all  that  is  false 
and  mischievous,  in  morals  and  politics,  teaclies  in  the  scliools  of  modern  philosophy, 
upholds  the  pernicious  theories  of  Condorcet,  Rousseau,  and  Godwin,  justifies  usurpa- 
tion and  tyranny,  and  recommends  the  most  visionary  and  heedless  scheme  of  reform. 

The  wise  man,  wlien  he  enjoins  a  rigid  observance  of  faith,  strict  performance  of 
promises,  when  he  enforces  filial  duty  and  parental  love,  n,nd  commands  you  to  do  no 
murder,  is  not  miinindful,  that  partial  evil  might  often  be  avoided,  and  temporary 
good  obtained,  by  violating  your  faith,  disregarding  your  promise,  failing  in  duty  to 
your  parent,  forgetting  your  affection  for  your  son,  and  even  by  imbruing  your  hand 
m  hu:nan  blood : — But  looking  beyond  tiie  narrov/  circle  v/hich  bounds  the  vision  of 
modern  philosophy,  he  tells  you  that  all  these  partial  considerations  must  be  foregone, 
and  that  the  lasting  peace  and  happiness  of  society  imperiously  require  that  the  moral 
duties,  he  has  taught,  should  be  held  in  constant  reverence.  So  the  wise  Statesman, 
looking  beyond  tiie  partial  evils  and  tempora.ry  benefits  which  guide  the  expedients 
of  political  quackery,  walking  in  the  light  of  experience,  and  governing  himself  by 
principle,  will  take  all  his  measures  with  reference  to  the  great  and  enduring  interests 
of  the  community.  If  such  light  and  such  guidance  shall  conduct  us  to  the  conclu- 
sion, that  the  great  and  permanent  interests  of  this  community  require  that  the  pow- 
er of  the  Government  should  be  entrusted  to  the  minority,  it  becomes  the  solemn 
duty  of  the  majority  to  v/ithdraw  their  claim,  to  yield  the  power,  and  with  it  their 
confidence  to  the  minority,  whether  that  minority  consists  of  thousands,  or  hundreds, 
or  tens,  or  even  a  single  unit, — v/hether  the  Government  shall  continue  a  republic, 
or  become  an  oligarchy,  an  aristocracy,  or  a  monarchy.  All  that  I  require  is,  that  the 
evidence  of  this  duty  should  be  clear  and  conclusive  : — that  in  a  Government  insti- 
tuted for  the  benefit  of  the  people,  and  acknowledging  their  will  to  be  sovereign ;  in 
a  country  where,  under  the  most  favorable  auspices  in  the  world,  the  interesting  ex- 
periment is  yet  in  progress,  wliich  is  to  solve  the  problem  of  man's  capacity  for  self- 
government, — we  should  be  very  careful  to  consult  cur  judgment  rather  than  our 
fears — we  should  be  quite  sure,  that  in  protecting  an  obvious,  though  subordinate  in- 
terest, we  are  not  leaving  the  paramount  interests  of  society  unguarded  ;  that  in  sur- 
rendering the  power  to^the  minority,  v.^e  are  not  abandoning  the  principle,  that  the 
will  of  tile  people  is  sovereign,  and  acknowledging  that  the  question  of  self-govern- 
ment must  be  decided  against  the  liberties  of  mankind. 

With  these  views  of  the  rights  of  the  majority,  and  of  the  test  of  expediency  to 
which  every  measure  of  reform  must  be  subjected,  let  us  proceed  to  the  question  be- 
fore the  Comtnittee.  The  people  who  adopted  the  present  Constitution,  with  a  decla- 
ration on  its  face  of  their  right  to  reform  it,  having  lived  under  it  for  more  than  fifty 
years,  have  thought  it  required  alteration,  and  have  deputed  us  to  enquire  and  report 
to  them,  what  amendments,  if  any,  ought  to  be  made.  The  Select  Committee  have 
reported  a  resolution,  declaring  that  m  the  apportionment  of  representation  in  the 
House  of  Delegates,  regard  should  be  had  to  the  white  population  exclusively." 
The  gentleman  from  CuTpeper  has  proposed  so  to  amend  this  resolution,  as  to  place  the 
representation  on  the  basis,  not  of  the  white  population  simply,  but  of  the  white  popu- 
lation and  taxation  combined  : — and  the  question  is  upon  the  adoption  of  the  proposed 
amendment.  In  considering  this  question,  we  must  not  be  deceived  by  tlie  literal 
import  of  the  two  propositions,  and  I  beg  permission  to  explain  my  understanding  of 
each. 

When  the  resolution  of  the  Select  Committee  refers  us  to  the  white  population 
"  exclusively,''  I  do  not  understand  that  in  the  practical  application  of  this  rule,  there 
is  to  be  a  rigid  adherence  to  its  terms  : — I  do  not  understand  that  the  Commonwealth 
is  to  be  laid  off  into  election  districts,  containing  a  precise  equality  of  white  inhabi- 
tants, and  entitled  to  an  equal  number  of  Delegates.  I  understand  this  v/ord  "  ex- 
clusively,'' in  that  sense,  which  would  refer  us  to  the  white  population,  in  exclusion 
of  the  black  population  ;  in  exclusion  of  property  and  taxes— not  in  exclusion  of  all 
regard  to  county  limits — of  all  regard  to  the  interests,  the  convenience,  the  ancient 
habits  and  customs  of  the  people.    My  object  in  applying  the  rule,  would  be  to  lay 


DEBATES    OF    THE  CONVENTION". 


265 


off  the  State  into  a  giTen  number  of  districts,  composed  of  contignous  comities,  hav- 
ing interests  as  nearly  identical  as  possible — to  give  to  each  of  these  districts  a  num- 
her  of  Delegates,  in  proportion  to  its  wrhite  popuiatioa,  and  to  distribute  th€  Delegates, 
in  each  district,  amono-  the  several  counties  tii^rein.  so  as  to  give  to  each  coimty  in 
the  district,  at  least  one  member,  if  the  number  of  members  vrere  equal  to  the  num- 
ber of  the  counties.  To  illustrate  : — Suppose  the  State  divided  into  four  districts,  by 
the  lines  of  the  Alleghany  ,  the  Blue  Sidge.  and  tlie  head  of  tide  ivater — and  suppose 
the  House  of  Delegates  to  be  composed  of  one  hundred  and  tvrenty  members.  Then 
upon  the  basis  of  tlie  white  population,  according  to  the  Auditor's  estimate  of  its  pre- 
sent numbers,  the  trans- Alleghany  district,  would  be  entitled  to  ahout  thirty-two  mem- 
bers— the  Vallev  district,  to  twenty-four — the  3Iiddle  district  to  thirty-five — and  the 
Eastern  to  twenty-nine.  The  thirty-two  trans-Alleghany  members,  would  be  dis- 
tributed among  its  twenty-six  counties,  so  as  to  give  one  to  eadi :  and  assign  the 
surplus  six  to  tne  six  larger  counties.  In  like  manner  the  twenty -four  Valley  members 
would  be  distributed  ajuong  its  fourteen  counties,  and  the  thirty-five  meinb^rs  for  the 
midland  district  among  its  twenty-nine  counties.  The  twenty-nine  members  for  the 
Eastern  district  would  not  supply  one  to  each  of  its  thirty-six  counties  and  fom:  borougis, 
and  therefore  in  that  district  no  county  or  borough  would  have  more  than  one.  and  some 
of  the  smaller  counties,  must  form  tog-ether,  election  districts  for  single  members.  By 
such  an  arrangement  as  this,  tliough  each  county  would  not  have  its  exact  proportion 
in  the  representation,  each  large  district  would  :  and  in  order  to  give  to  each  local 
interest  in  the  Common wealtli.  its  just  weight  in  the  Legislature,  yen  have  only  to 
take  care,  that  in  la\ring  out  your  large  districts,  you  embrace  in  them  reepectively 
only  those  counties  whose  interests  are  essential!}  the  same.  This  beinw'  done,  the 
spirit  of  a  just  equality  would  be  observed,  whilst  the  regard  had  to  county  limits 
would  soften  the  asperities  of  the  r^i<3rm.  and  he  attended  with  many  advantages, 
which  it  would  be  out  of  place  here  to  recounL 

Again,  the  resolution  of  the  Committee,  in  referring  to  the  white  population  ex- 
clusively, literally  imports,  that  the  whole  number  of  white  persons  in  the  several 
d.istricts.  shall  give  the  ratio  of  representation — and  this  was  intended  to  be  the  prac- 
tical operation  of  the  rule.  But  this  is  not  in  the  spirit  of  the  doctrine  for  which  we 
contend.  We  do  not  insist,  that  each  white  person,  male  and  female,  infant  and  adult, 
whether  entitled  to  the  Right  of  Siifirage  or  no.  is  entitled  to  equal  representation. 
No  I — Our  doctrine  is.  that  each  person  entitled  to  the  E.ight  of  Sufii-age.  each  who 
shares  in  the  sovereignty,  is  entitled  to  equal  political  power,  and  tiiercfcre  to  equal 
representation.  We  espouse  the  principle  of  the  resolution  ofiered  by  the  gentlemaa 
irom.  ^sorfolk  (]vlr.  Taylor.)  though  we  do  not  adopt  its  mathematical  precision.  We 
have  advocated  the  basis  of  white  population,  instead  of  qualified  voters,  because  tlie 
former  gives  a  more  certain  and  convenient  rule,  and  because  it  was  believed,  that  it 
was  substantially  equivalent  in  effect.  But  examination  and  reflection  lead  me  to  be- 
lieve that  there  may  be.  and  possibly  is.  a  material  difference,  in  the  effect  of  the  two 
rules  ;  that  the  number  of  white  persons  in  the  different  districts  would  not  be  a  fair 
index  of  the  number  of  qualified  voters :  and  that  the  basis  of  qualified  voters  would 
be  more  favourable  to  the  Eastern  pari  of  tlie  State,  than  the  basis  of  white  popula- 
tion. If  there  be  any  gentleman  on  this,  or  the  other  side  of  tlie  House,  who  pre- 
fers as  the  basis  of  representation,  the  qualified  voters,  rather  than  the  white  popula- 
tion, who  thinks  that  the  superior  iustice  of  the  former,  countervails  tlie  gr-eater  con- 
venience and  certainty  of  the  latter.  I  am  prepared  to  go  with^  him,  send  give  it  my 
support.  I  will  not  press  the  principle  for  wliieh  I  contend  beyond  its  reason  and 
justice.  In  advocating  then,  the  basis  of  white  population.  I  must  be  understood  as 
maintaining  the  right  of  the  qualified  voters  to  share  equally  the  power  of  the  Gov- 
lernment ;  and  as  pre.ssinj  their  ehiims.  not  to  a  precise  mathematical  equahtv,  but  to 
a  rational  practical  equality,  assuring  to  every  local  interest,  as  far  as  can  be,  its  due 
weight  and  just  protection. 

The  proposition  to  amend,  which  offers  the  basis  of  population  and  taxation  com- 
bined, is  not  very  denaite  in  its  terms,  but  as  explained  by  its  mover  is  very  intelli- 
gible. It  does  not  propose  to  compound  the  number  of  dollars  paid  tor  taxes  in  each 
district.  %vith  the  number  of  wliite  persons  therein,  and  tlience  <ieriYe  the  rule  for  ap- 
portionment, but  it  proposes  to  compound  the  ratios  of  taxation  and  numbers,  thus — 
to  give  one-half  the  Delegates,  according  to  the  ratio  of  taxes  paid,  and  the  other  half 
according  to  the  ratio  of  white  persons — or  thus  take  for  each  district  the  mean 
proportional  between  the  number  it  would  be  entitled  to  -according  to  the  ratio  of 
white  persons,  and  the  number  it  would  be  entitled  to  nccordinor  to  the  ratio  of  taxes 
paid.  To  illustrate:  The  trans-Alleghany  district,  would  be  entitled — on  tlie  basis 
of  wliite  population  to  thirty-two — on  the  basis  of  taxes  to  eleven — on  the  coinp="und 
basis  to  twenty-one  and  a  half.  The  Valley,  on  whi^e  p-pul  ^tion  twenty -four — 
taxes  ten — compound  basis  twenty-one  and  a  half.  31iddle  district,  on  white  popula- 
tion thirty-five — taxes  forty-nine — compound  forty-two  Eastern  district^  on  wliite 
population  twentv-nine — taxes  forrv-one — eompoimd  thirtv-five. 

34 


266 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


The  proposition  to  amend  is  liable  to  other  objections  for  want  of  precision ;  btit 
candour  requires  us  to  suppose,  that  they  will  be  obviated,  when  the  proposition  is 
carried  out  into  its  details,  and  therefore  they  need  not  be  now  pointed  out. 

With  these  explanations,  the  question  before  the  Committee  may  be  thus  stated  : — 
Shall  the  power  of  the  Government  be  apportioned  among-  its  districts,  according  to 
the  simple  ratio  of  those  who  partake  of  the  sovereignty,  the  qualified  voters,  in 
each ; — or  shall  it  be  apportioned  according  to  the  combined  ratio  of  white  persofts 
and  taxes  ? 

Those  who  advocate  the  simple  ratio,  endeavour  to  maintain  it  upon  principle  ;  it) 
deduce  it  from  the  fundamental  doctrines  of  our  Government,  and  to  vindicate  it 
upon  considerations  of  sound  political  expediency. 

The  advocates  of  the  compound  ratio,  not  seeming  directly  to  controvert  the  gene- 
ral rule,  that  the  niajority  should  govern,  and  some  of  them  admitting  it,  insist  ne- 
vertheless that  it  is  liable  to  exceptions ;  that  it  is  subject  to  the  control  of  these  con- 
siderations of  expediency  which  may  prove  it  unfit  for  the  good  government  of  the 
people  to  whom  it  is  to  be  applied,  and  that  the  circumstances  of  the  people  of  Vir- 
ginia render  it  unfit  for  them.  They  contend  that  a  primary  object  of  Government 
is  the  protection  of  property;  that  when  its  title  is  unsafe,  no  other  rights  can  be  se- 
cure, and  that  the  peculiar  condition  of  property  in  Virginia  is  such  that  no  adequate 
protection  can  be  given  it,  if  the  power  of  the  Government  is  put  into  the  hands  of 
the  majority.  They  endeavour  to  prove,  that  power  in  the  minority  is  essential  to  the 
protection  of  their  property,  and  that  such  is  the  singular  constitution  of  our  society, 
that  while  the  property  of  the  minority  is  exposed  to  certain  injury,  by  giving  power 
to  the  majority,  the  property  and  ail  the  personal  rights  of  the  majority,  are  effectu- 
ally secured  by  giving  the  power  to  the  minority.  The  evidences  of  this  peculiarity 
they  find,  in  the  unequal  distribution  of  the  slave  property,  among  the  different  dis- 
tricts of  the  State;  the  unequal  contributions  of  revenue  from  tliose  districts;  the 
variety  and  supposed  conflict  of  their  local  interests.  They  show  that  the  great  body 
of  the  slaves  is  held  by  the  Eastern  districts  of  the  Commonwealth  ;  they  endeavour 
to  shov/,  that  the  taxable  ini  ab  tants  in  those  districts  pay  a  nmcli  greater  avesage  tax 
])er  capita,  than  is  paid  by  the  taxable  inhabitants  of  the  Western  districts  ;  that  there 
is  no  subject  of  taxation  in  the  West  which  is  not  also  found  in  the  East,  and  on 
which  a  tax  would  not  be  quite  as  burthensome  to  the  Eastern  as  to  the  Western  peo- 
ple, and  no  subject  of  legislation,  on  which  the  interest  of  the  East  could  be  pro- 
moted at  the  expense  of  the  West : — that  on  the  interesting  subject  of  internal  im- 
provements, particularly,  while  the  interests  of  the  Eastern  and  Western  districts  are 
variant,  if  not  hostile,  and  plans  might  be  adopted  to  enrich  the  latter,  which  would 
impoverish  the  former,  yet  this  East  would  have  no  adequate  motive  to  do  injustice 
to  the  West; — and  they  thence  infer  the  propriety  of  giving  to  Ihe  East  a  power  in 
the  Government,  somewhat  proportioned  to  their  contributions  of  revenue,  a  power 
adequate  to  the  protection  of  their  property; — tliey  thence  also  infer,  the  perfect  se- 
curity of  the  West,  against  the  power  of  the  East, — and  the  alarming  danger,— that, 
if  the  power  of  the  Government,  were  in  the  hands  of  the  Western  people  ; — whither 
they  think  the  rule  of  the  majority  would  probably  soon  carry  it, — the  property  of  the 
Eastern  people  would  be  unjustly  taxed,  unwise  laws  affecting  the  value  of  their 
slaves  and  dangerous  to  the  peace  of  the  community,  would  be  enacted,  and  schemes 
adopted,  v/hich  might  apply  the  revenue  contributed  by  the  East,  to  the  improvement 
of  the  estates  of  the  West. 

This  is  believed  to  be  a  fair  Outline  of  the  principal  grounds  on  which  the  friends  of 
the  compound  ratio  rest  its  defence.  Some  subordinate  considerations  have  been 
called  to  their  aid,  and  many  ingenious,  able  and  eloquent  arguments  have  left  it 
wanting  in  nothing,  but  intrinsic  merit,  to  recommend  it  to  our  affections  and  our 
judgment. 

I  readily  subscribe,  Mr.  Chairman,  to  the  proposition,  that  an  indispensible  object 
of  every  good  Government,  is  the  security  of  property,  and  that  no  Government 
which  does  not  afford  that  security,  Can  be  a  safe  depository  of  the  liberty  and  life  of 
the  citizen ; — but  I  utterly  deny  that  there  is  arty  thing  in  the  peculiar  situation  of 
Virginia,  which  should  induce  us  to  look  for  that  security,  in  the  power  of  the  mino- 
rity, or  which  threatens  the  serious  dangers  which  gentlemen  apprehend,  from  the 
ipower  of  the  majority.  On  the  contrary,  I  insist,  that  the  majority  have  more  to  fear 
from  the  power  of  the  minority,  than  the  minority  has  to  fear  from  theirs: — that  un- 
der the  rule  of  the  majority,  property  will  be  more  secure,  legislation  more  just  and 
wise,  the  people  more  happy,  and  the  country  more  prosperous. 

Before  we  proceed  to  a  more  particular  consideration  of  this  question,  it  may  be 
well  to  review  the  statements  which  have  been  submitted  to  us,  deduced  from  the  ta- 
bles furnished  by  the  Auditor,  and  to  make  such  corrections  as  they  may  be  found  to 
Require 

The  tables  of  population  show  us  that  there  are  probably  in  the  Commonwealth  at 
Ikis  time,  about  682,000  white  persons,  and  about  448,000  slaves,  thus  distributed 


DEBATES    OF    THE  CONVEXTiOX. 


267 


amongst  the  different  districts  : — In  the  first  or  Western  district,  about  131.000  wMtes, 
and  17.000  slives ;  more  than  ten  whites  for  each  slave  : — in  the  second  or  Valley  dis- 
trict, about  1  J^,000  whites,  and  .:.3  500  slaves,  little  more  than  four  v,-hites  to  a  slave  :— 
in  the  third  or  middle  district,  about  l.,-7.000  v\'hites.  and  221.000  slaves — the  slaves  exr 
ceedinz  the  whites  b}'  about  24,')U0,  nearly  one-eighth  of  the  white  population:  and 
in  the  Fourth  or  Eastern  district,  about  165.000  whites,  and  176.000  slaves — the  slaves 
there,  also  exceeding  the  whites,  about  10,530,  about  one-sixteenth  of  the  white  po- 
pulation. Thus,  it  appears  that  the  aggregate  of  slaves  on  the  East  of  the  Blue 
Ridge  is  ab-jut  397,000.  while  the  aggregate  on  the  West  is  about  50,500,  nearly  eight 
to  one — while  the  aggregate  of  vriiite  population  on  the  East  of  the  mountain  is 
about  362,503,  and  that  on  the  V\'est  319,000— the  difference  only  about  43,500.  It 
is,  therefore,  true  as  is  stated  on  the  other  side,  that  the  slave  population  is  very  une- 
qually distributed  at  this  time,  and  is  at  present  essentially  an  Eastern  interest. 

From  the  tables  of  taxation,  the  gentleman  from  Chesterheld  deduced,  that  the  people 
of  the  first  district  paid  of  the  whole  taxes  on  land  and  personal  property,  an  average 
per  capita,  of  23  cents  8  mills ;  and  the  people  of  the  second  district  42  cents  6  mills, 
while  the  people  of  the  tliird  district  paid  72  cents  2  mills,  and  those  of  the  fourth 
63  cents  9  mills — making  an  averao;e  Tor  the  people  on  the  West  of  tke  Blue  Piidge 
of  32  cents  2  mills  ;  and  for  the  people  on  the  East  of  .68  cents  2  mills.  He  selected 
indi\  idual  counties  in  the  different  districts,  between  which  there  was  a  still  more 
striking  inequality,  and  shovred  tiiat  the  average  contribution  of  the  slave  tax  j/er 
capiia,  m  the  several  districts.,  was  tlje  most  unequal  of  all. 

That  there  are  inequalities  in  the  contributions  of  revenues  from  the  different  dis- 
tricts of  the  State,  owing  to  the  unequal  distribution  of  wealth,  no  one  doubts.  It  is 
jEertainly  so,  in  our  country,  as  it  is  in  ail  countries,  and  as  it  must  be,  so  long  as  taxes 
ate  laid  upon  property  and  not  on  polls :  so  long  as  the  abilit\'  to  pay  shall  be  regard- 
fid  as  furnishing  any  criterion  of  the  amount  of  contribution.  But  the  statements 
¥rhich  have  been  exiiibited  to  you  are  calculated  to  deceive.  They  make  the  uupres- 
sion  that  the  several  sums  slated,  show  the  average  per  capita,  actually  assessed  on 
the  tax-paying  inhabitants  of  the  several  districts — this,  however,  is  not  the  case : 
the  calculations  are  made  by  distributing  the  whole  amount  of  taxes  assessed,  in  each 
district,  on  the  whole  number  of  free  persons  in  the  district,  on  whom  by  law  a  tax 
could  be  assessed,  whether  black  or  white,  male  or  female,  infant  or  adult.  I  have 
naade  an  estiniate  of  the  average  per  capita,  actually  assessed,  on  the  tax-paying  in- 
habitants of  the  several  districts,  and  the  result  is  materially  different;  shov.'ing  ine- 
qualities, it  is  true,  as  must  have  been  anticipated,  but  inequalities  less  glarino;,  and 
less  calculated  to  excite  alarm,  or,  to  countenance  the  extravag£m.t  claim  for  power 
which  has  been  founded  upon  tliem. 

The  Committ>e.e  will  remark,  that  I  have  made  this  estimate  from  the  Auditor's  ta- 
bles of  the  taxes  assessed  for  the  year  lS2i,  and  his  fists  of  persons  charged  with  taxes 
on  lands  or  other  property,  in  the  several  counties  and  corporations  in  the  Common- 
wealth. There  will  be  a  slinrht  inaccuracy  in  the  estimate  of  the  land  tax,  resulting 
from  the  circumstance,  that  this  list  excludes  all  those  charged  with  a  tax,  on  parcels 
of  land  in  the  country,  less  than  twenty-five  acres.  But  this  inaccuracv  cannot  ma- 
terially vary  the  result. 

Calculating  from  these  data,  I  find  the  average  tax  per  capita  as  follows  : — in  the 
first  district,  land  tax  80  cents,  tax  on  other  property  59  cents,  totjil  §  1  39 ;  in  the 
second  district,  land  tax  S  2  30,  tax  on  other  property  $  1  12,  toial  8  3  42  •  in  the  third 
district,  land  tax  S  2  31 ,  tax  on  other  property  S  2  43,  total  §  4  74  :  and  in  the  fourth 
district,  land  tax  .3  2  07,  tax  on  other  property  S  2  43,  total  ,5-  4  50.  '  We  thus  see  that 
the  average  land  tax  of  the  Valley  district  is  equal  to  the  average  land  tax  of  the 
middle  district  within  ©ne  cent,  and  is  superior  to  the  averan:e  land  tas.  of  the  Eastern 
district,  23  cents— that  its  average  tot?J  tax  is  less  than  the  average  total  of  the  mid- 
dle district,  g  1  32— that  is  about  23  per  cent,  and  less  than  the  average  total  of  the 
Eastern  district,  bv  S  1  05 — that  is  about  22  per  cent.  But,  the  taxes  on  slaves  have 
been  reduced  3  cents  for  the  present  year,  and  this  reduction  would  cause  the  ave- 
rage of  the  several  districts  to  stand  thus — first  district  S  1  36 — second  district  8  3  34 
— third  district  84  43 — fourth  district,  ,8  4  19,  bringing  the  Valley  district  withiq. 
§1  11  of  the  middle  district,  and  within  85  cents  of  the  Eastern.  It  must  be  farther 
remarked,  that  in  these  estimates,  the  towns  of  Richmond,  Petersburg  and  Freder- 
icksburg have  been  included  within  the  tide-water  district.  ]!Sow,  afthough  these 
towns  are  situated  at  the  head  of  tide- water,  they  do  not.  for  any  of  the  purposes  of 
this  argument,  belong  to  the  tide-water  district.  Their  sympathies,  their  interests  are 
with  the  country  that  lies  above  them,  which  founded  tliem,  supphes  their  trade  and 
furnishes  their  v/ealth.  Withdraw  them  from  that  district,  and  you  diminish  very 
materially  its  average  tax.  We  have  not  the  means  of  estimating  the  taxes  paid  iij 
Fredericksburg,  our  tables  containing  no  separate  retimi  for  that  toi^-n.  Subtracting 
Richmond  and  Petersburg  only,  for  which  we  have  separate  returns,  and  then  the 
average  of  the  Eastern  district  will  be,  of  land  81  84,  of  tax  on  other  property.  82  12^ 


26S 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


total  $  S  9o  ;  thus  reducing  its  average  land  tax  46  cents  below  that  of  the  Valley, 
and  leaving  its  total  average  only  53  cents  above  it. 

In  all  tJiese  estunates  it  will  be  observed  that  the  contributions  of  the  trans-Alle- 
ghany  district  are  very  much  below  par.  It  is  easy  to  understand  why  the  average 
tax  on  personal  property,  is  much  lower  there  than  in  the  other  districts,  because  of  the 
small  number  of  its  slaves — but  why  the  average  land  tax  should  be  so,  is  an  enquiry, 
the  answer  to  which  does  not  lie  on  the  surface.  It  is  probably  to  be  found  in  two 
considerations:  First,  very  large  quantities  of  land,  in  different  parts  of  that  district, 
on  which  large  arrears  of  taxes  are  due,  have  been  vested  in  the  Literary  Fund,  by  the 
operation  of  the  tax  law  of  1814,  and  are  now  stricken  from  the  tax  books,  because 
the  lands  belonging  to  that  lund  pay  no  taxes — secondly,  and  chiefly,  in  the  year 
1817,  when  all  the  lands  of  the  Commonwealth  were  assessed,  it  is  well  known  that 
the  public  mind  was  acting  under  a  delusion,  which  misled  its  estimates  of  the  value 
of  every  thing,  and  perhaps  of  nothing  more  than  of  the  value  of  land.  The  com- 
bined influence  of  protracted  war  in  Europe,  which  for  many  years  had  given  an  ex- 
tensive market,  and  high  prices,  to  the  products  of  our  soil — our  own  war,  which 
throvi?ing  a  large  aniount  of  mercantile  capital  out  of  its  regular  employment,  left  it 
to  seek  nivestment  in  land  ;  and  tJie  great  multiplication  of  banks,  which  creating  a 
large  fictitious  capital,  increased  to  an  extravagant  degree  the  speculations  in  real 
property — had  inflated  the  market  price  of  that  property  beyond  any  reasonable  rela- 
tion to  its  in-rinsic  value.  Tiiese  causes,  in  Virginia,  had  exerted  their  principal 
force  in  the  agricultural  c;ounlry,  of  the  Valley,  and  the  Eastern  side  of  the  Moun- 
tain, and  especially  the  banking  towns,  and  their  immediate  vicinities.  They  were 
but  little  felt  in  the  trans-Alleghany  country,  remote  from  the  influence  of  the  banks 
— remote  from  market,  and  from  the  scenes  of  speculation.  Its  lands  were  the  less;' 
sought  either  by  the  emigrant  or  the  speculaLor,  because  of  the  difficulty  in  their 
titles.  The  land  law  of  177y,  drawn,  it  is  said,  by  the  same  George  Mason,  the  author 
of  our  Constitution — men  are  not  equally  wise  in  all  things ! — the  land  law  of  '79 
had  operated  to  produce  infinite  confusion  in  the  land  titles  of  the  West ;  and  this 
cause,  as  well  by  retarding  settlements  as  by  discouraging  purchasers, had  depressed 
the  market  value  of  their  lands.  Thus,  while  extraneous  causes  of  one  kind  contri- 
buted to  enhance  the  market  value  of  lands  East  of  the  Alleghany,  extraneous  causes 
of  another  kind  conspired  to  depreciate  the  market  value  of  the  lands  West  of  that 
mountain.  I  should  liave  inferred,  therelbre,  that  the  assessment  of  1817,  which  the 
law  required  to  be  n:tade  according  to  the  market  value,  would  have  overrated  the 
lands  on  the  Eastern  waters,  and  underrated  those  on  the  Western.  We  all  know 
that  the  lands  on  the  Eastern  waters  were  assessed  too  high,  and  I  am  informed  that 
those  on  the  Western  waters  were,  in  truth,  assessed  too  low.  Looking  at  a  state- 
ment made  from  the  assessors'  tables,  we  find  that  while  the  average  value  of  the 
lands  on  the  Western  waters  was  but  ^2  cents  per  acre,  those  of  the  Valley  were 
,$7  33,  those  of  the  Midland  district  $  8  20,  and  those  of  the  Eastern  district  $  8  43 
per  acre.  These  causes,  added  to  tiie  great  increase  of  population  in  the  Western  dis- 
trict since  the  assessment,  leave  no  reasonable  d^lubt  that  a  new  assessment  would 
reduce  the  average  of  all  the  lands  of  the  three  districts  upon  the  Eastern  waters,  es- 
pecially of  the  tide-water  district — would  raise  the  average  of  the  lands  in  the  Wes- 
tern district,  and  would  place  the  land-tax  of  that  district  nearly  upon  a  ground  of 
equality  with  the  land-tax  of  the  other  districts  of  the  State. 

It  does  not  follow,  Mr.  Chairman,  from  the  inequalities  of  contribution  in  the  dif- 
ferent districts,  that  there  is  any  injustice  in  the  measure  of  taxes  imposed,  or  that 
those  who  pay  least  can  best  bear  the  burthen  imposed  on  them.  If  taxes  are  imposed 
on  the  property  of  the  country,  in  the  proportion  of  the  ability  of  its  owners  to  pay, 
those  who  have  more  property,  and  therefore  pay  more  taxes,  have,  surely,  no  cause 
to  complain.  V/ith  equal  prudence,  economy,  and  good  management,  the  rich  will 
be  always  able  to  pay  their  contributions  to  the  Government  with  more  ease  than  the 
poor.  Tlie  contributions  of  the  rich  man  are  paid  from  his  abundance, and  if  they  restrain 
his  enjoyments  at  all,  they  curtail  only  his  luxuries — while  the  poor  man  withdraws  his 
modicum  from  a  bare  competency,  leaving  scarcely  enough  behind  for  the  necessaries 
and  the  ordinary  comforts  of  life.  It  has  been  the  object  of  our  laws  to  distribute  the 
taxes  among  the  people  in  proportion  to  the  value  of  their  property ,  assuming  that  as 
the  best  criterion  of  their  ability  to  pay,  and  adopting  such  general  rules  to  effect  their 
object  as  were  found  by  experience  to  be  most  convenient  in  practice.  If  they  have 
failed  in  this  object,  as  no  doubt  in  some  degree  they  have,  the  failure  has  not  been 
greater  than  was  to  have  been  anticipated  from  the  intrinsic  difficulty  of  the  subject. 
If  you  will  measure  the  ability  of  the  several  districts  by  the  amount  of  their  labor, 
and  allow  tlie  whole  nunlber  of  their  inhabitants,  respectively,  to  be  a  fair  standard  of 
their  comparative  labor — you  have  a  test  by  which  to  try  this  question.  I  do  not  vouch 
for  the  accuracy  of  this  test,  though  a  better  one  does  not  now  occur  to  me — and  if 
you  will  apply  it,  by  dividing  the  whole  amount  of  taxes  in  each  district,  by  the  whole 
number  of  its  inhabitants,  you  will  find  the  average  j?er  cajnia  not  very  unequal  in 


DEBATES    or   THE    CONVENTION.  269 

the  several  districts  East  of  the  AJleghany — and  tmequal  in  the  Western  district;  no 
doubt,  because  of  the  accidental  under  value  of  its  lands  as  already  ezp^ined.  The 
taxes  of  the  several  districts  for  the  year  I'M;*,  distributed  among  aii  the  inhabitants  of 
each,  arives  an  average,  ^yfr  capita,  nearly  as  ibllows  :  In  the  Urst  district.  15  cents  ; 
in  tne'second.  2t»  cents  :  in  the  third;  31  cents  :  and  in  the  fourth;  30  cents. 

Mr.  Johns -jn  bein^  much  exhausted,  asked  the  indulgence  that  Lie  Coc^mittee 
shoald  rise. 

It  was  accorded  to  him  on  the  motion  of  Mr.  Giles,  and  the  Committee  rose  ac- 
cordincrly — and  on  the  motion  of  3Ir.  Z>Iason  of  Southamptcn.  the  Ccnventicn  imme- 
diately^ adjourned. 


THURSDAY.  Xove^ieer  12.  lS-29. 

The  Convention  met  at  eleven  o'clock,  and  its  sitting  vras  opened  vrith  prayer  by 
the  Rev.  Ivlr.  Horner;  of  the  Catholic  Church. 

Mr.  JoHyso>-  resumed  his  speech  of  yesterday,  and  continued  to  occupy  the  ficor 
till  the  hour  of  adjournment, 

I  have  been  thus  particular  in  examining  the  manner  in  which  the  taxes  are  distri- 
buted amoncp  the  di5erent  districts  of  the  Commonvrealth,  not  because  it  was  essen- 
tial to  the  merits  of  the  question  now  before  the  Committee;  but  because  I  thought  it 
•would  remove  from  our  minds  the  alarming  spectacle  of  poverty  making  war  upon 
wealth,  and  would  satisfr  impartial  men  that  each  district  pays,  as  nearly  as  the  ope- 
ration of  laws  always  imperfect  could  be  expected  to  produce,  a  just  contribution  to 
the  Government — that  no  district  is  in  a  stale  of  pauperism — none  in  a  situation  to 
be  tempted  to  seize  unlawfully  on  its  neighbor's  property — and  that  in  all  human  pro- 
bability; when,  hereafter,  a  \yestern  man  shall  vote  from  the  pocket  of  his  Eastern 
brother,  one  doHar,  in  fhe  form  of  taxes,  he  will  vote  from  his  own  pocket,  at  the 
same  time,  nearly  an  equivalent  sum.  one  at  least,  which  he  can  as  ill  spare,  and  will 
be  as  httle  able  to  pay.  I  regretted  very  much  to  hear  that  part  of  the  remarks  of 
the  gentleman  from  Accomack.  (Mr.  Joynes)  in  which  he  endeavored  to  show  that 
the  whole  country  West  of  the  Blue  E.idge  did  not  pay  into  the  treasury  a  smn  suffi- 
cient to  defray  the  expenses  of  its  delegation  to  the  General  Assembly,  and  of  the  adr- 
ministration  of  justice  within  its  own  limits.  Remarks  tending  to  institute  odious 
comparisons,  and  to  excite  unpleasant  sensations,  coming  from  a  gentleman  who  has 
manifested  so  much  hberahty.  so  much  kind  and  good  feehng;  are  exceedingly  to  be 
regretted — and  I  felt  them  the  more  because  they  came  from  that  part  of  the  Stale,  the 
extreme  East,  from  which  on  former  occasions;  I  have  so  often  heard  remarks  leadic^ 
to  collision  and  controversy;  between  the  extreme  West  and  extreme  East;  which  re-- 
quired  the  interposition  of  moderate  men  to  compose.  I  have  not  examined  the  gen- 
tleman's calculation  to  ascertain  whether  his  con:  lusion  is  right  or  wrong.  After  hav- 
ing ascertained  the  precise  amoimt  of  taxes  paid  by  each  district :  al\er  ascertaining 
the  average  amount  per  capita,  paid  in  each — what  possible  iiLuuence  on  the  questioa 
before  us  can  it  have — to  know  that  the  contributions  of  any  district  are  not  adequate  to 
that  part  of  the  expenses  of  the  G-ovemment,  which  the  calculations  of  gentlemen  may 
choose  to  assign  to  it  ?  Surely  the  expenses  of  legislation,  and  of  the  administration 
of  justice  are  not  local  in  their  character,  pertain  to  no  district,  and  can  be  charged  to 
none.  They  are,  if  any  can  be,  the  expenses  of  the  whole  Ccmmonv.-ealth,  incurred 
for  the  common  weal  and  justly  payable  from  the  common  purse.  Such  imputations 
as  these,  if  it  were  proper  to  repel  them,  would  lead  to  the  unpleasant  and  unprofita- 
ble enquiry;  into  the  objects  to  which  the  pubhc  revenue  was  apphed :  the  districts  in 
which  it  was  expended;  the  local  causes  which  increased  the  expense  of  Govern- 
ment, and  would  impose  on  us  the  invidious  duty,  which  1  certainly  shall  not  per- 
form, of  indicating  the  various  counties,  in  the  Ea--:rtem  district;  which  dc  not  contri- 
bute their  share  of  the  expenses  of  Government.  But  we  must  forbear  from  such 
topics,  they  do  not  become  the  occasion. 

It  will  be  proper,  iNIr.  Chairman,  to  disarm  this  question  of  some  of  its  terrors  to 
one  party :  disrobe  it  of  some  of  its  charms  for  the  other,  by  examining  with  care  its 
effects  on  the  distribution  of  power,  among  the  different  districts  of  the  Common- 
wealth. The  calculations  on  this  subject,  have  been  made  ^"itli  reference  to  the 
House  of  Delegates,  and  upon  the  supposition  that  iJiat  House  should  consist  of  an 
hundred  and  twenty  members.  They  are  made  upon  the  Auditor's  estimates  of  tiie 
population  of  the  present  year.  These  are  supposed  by  some  gentlemen  to  be  inaccu- 
rate, and  the  Auditor  does  not  himseff  rely  with  confidence^pon  them; — ^but  I  as- 
sume them  as  approximatiaor  the  truth  sufficiently  for  the  purposes  of  the  present  ar- 
gument. 


270 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Let  us,  tlien,  compare  the  power  of  the  four  great  districts  of  the  State,  in  such  a 
House  of  Delegates,  as  it  would  be  on  the  present  basis,  the  equal  representation 
of  counties,  as  it  would  be  on  the  coiupound  basis  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from 
Culpeper,  and  as  it  would  be  on  the  basis  of  white  population.  The  Committee  will 
understand  my  references  to  the  districts,  if  they  will  remember,  that  I  number  them 
from  West  to  East,  denominating  the  Western,  the  first  district. 

In  such  a  House  of  Delegates,  the  relative  power  of  the  several  districts  would 
jStand  thus : 

On  the  basis  of  equal  coiinty  representation. 

First  district,  27— 2d,  IG— 3d,  32— 4th,  43. 

Compound  basis. 

First  district,  21^— 2d,  21|— 3d,  42— 4th,  35,       "  "  - 

Simple  basis  of  lo/dtc  population. 
First,  32— 2d,  34— 3d,  35— 4th,  29. 

Divided  by  the  Blue  Ridge,  the  East  and  West,  would  stand  thus  : 
By  equal  county  representation,  W.  45 — E.  75 
By  the  combined  ratio,  43     "  77  -  - 

White  population,  56  G4 

In  making  these  calculations,  we  disregard  small  fractions,  and  convert  large  ones 
Into  integers,  that  we  may  give  the  results  in  whole  numbers. 

By  this  method  of  calculating  the  effect  of  the  two  propositions,  it  would  appear, 
that,  adopting  the  compound  basis,  the  West  would  lose,  and  the  East  gain  two  mem- 
bers out  of  one  hundred  and  twenty,  and  tliat,  adopting  the  simple  basis,  the  West 
would  gain,  and  the  East  lose  eleven.  But  if  instead  of  taking  the  whole  number  of 
white  persons,  as  the  basis,  you  take  such  only  as  are  qualified  to  vote,  there  is  reason 
to  believe  that  the  result  would  be  materially  varied.  We  have  no  means  of  ascer- 
taining the  number  of  qualified  voters  ;  there  is  no  record  of  them  any  where,  and 
we  have  certainly  no  data  Irom  which  we  would  estimate  them  accurately.  But  we 
may  approximate  them  perhaps  suificiently  near,  to  answer  the  purpose  of  illustra- 
tion, by  estimates  from  such  data  as  we  have. 

Until  I  cams  into  this  Convention,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  had  habitually  considered  a 
representation  apportioned  according  to  the  whole  number  of  white  people  in  the  dif- 
ferent districts,,  and  one  apportioned  according  to  the  qualified  voters  in  each,  as  sub- 
stantially equivalents.  I  had  supposed,  that  the  ratio  of  the  one,  would  be  a  fair  in- 
dex  of  the  ratio  of  the  other.  I  had  never  carefully  examined  the  subject,  'till  my 
duties  in  the  Legislative  Committee,  called  my  attention  to  it,  and  induced  me  to 
xloubt  the  correctness  of  my  former  impressions.  The  able  argument  of  the  gentle- 
man from  Chesterfield,  rivetted  my  attention  to  it,  and  induced  me  to  think,  that  thosp 
impressions  were  probably  wrong.  There  is  much  weight  due  to  the  consideration, 
that  those  who  perform  menial  services — the  day-labourers,  the  cultivators  of  land 
which  they  do  not  own,  are  in  the  Eastern  districts,  principally  slaves — while  those 
who  perform  similar  functions,  in  the  Western  districts,  are  chiefly  white  persons; 
and  this  consideration  tends  to  the  conclusion,  that  the  ratio  of  qualified  voters,  to 
the  whole  white  population,  would  be  greater  in  the  East  than  in  the  West.  I  have 
appealed  to  the  only  documents  in  my  power,  to  test  this  conclusion — the  lists  of  per- 
sons charged  with  taxes.,  furnished  us  by  the  Auditor.  He  has  furnished  two  lists — 
the  one,  of  the  number  of  persons  in  each  county  and  corporate  town,  charged  with 
any  tax,  on  a  town  lot,  or  part  of  a  town  lot,  or  any  parcel  of  land,  not  less  than  twen- 
ty-five acres — the  other,  of  the  number  charged  with  any  tax  on  property.  Now,  al- 
though each  of  these  lists,  contains  male  and  female,  young  and  old,  black  and  white, 
without  discrimination  ;  and,  therefore,  cannot  inform  us  correctly  of  the  actual  numr 
ber  of  adult  white  males,  uporji  either,  yet  I  have  thought,  that,  probably,  they  woulcl 
not  very  far  mislead  us,  if  we  regard  them  as  an  index  of  the  relative  number  of  free 
adult  white  males,  in  the  several  districts,  and  as  an  index  of  the  relative  number  of 
qualified  voters  in  each.  If  we  take  the  list  of  those  charged  with  taxes  on  land,  as 
giving  the  ratio  of  freehold  voters,  and  the  other  list  as  giving  the  ratio  of  voters, 
when  the  PJght  of  Suffrage  shall  be  extended  to  house-keepers,  who  pay  a  revenue 
tax,  then,  upon  the  basis  of  the  qualified  voters,  the  relative  power  of  the  districts 
would  stand  thus : 

According  to  the  land  list— 1st,  27— 2d,  20— 3d,  37— 4th,  36. 

According  to  the  property  list— 1st,  29— 2d,  21— 3d,  39 — 4th,  34,  . 
Dividing  by  the  Blue  Ridge,  the  power  would  be, 

According  to  the  first — West,  47 — East,  73. 

According  to  the  second — West,  50 — East,  70. 

Thus,  according  to  the  most  favourable  of  these  estimates,  the  West  would  gain, 
and  the  East  lose  five  members,  in  a  House  of  an  hundred  and  twenty,  and  the  ma- 
jority on  the  Eastern  side  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  would  remain  twenty. 

These  statements  may  serve  to  show,  that  although  upon  any  basis  of  representa- 
tion which  has  been  yet  suggested,  a  large  portion  of  power  will  pass  from  the  tide- 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTIOX* 


271 


water  district,  to  those  above  it — jet  upon  no  basis,  can  the  power  pass  now,  from  the 
Eastern  to  the  Western  side  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  and  that  upon  the  principle  for  which 
we  contend,  if  it  pass  at  all,  it  must  pass  at  a  distant  day,  slowly,  gradually,  safely — •■ 
unaccompanied  by  the  dangers  which  have  been  apprehended — they  may  serve  to 
show  to  calm  reflection,  that  the  stake  depending  on  the  present  contest,  is  not  so 
great,  the  prize  to  be  won  not  so  valuable,  the  loss  to  be  sustained  not  so  dreadful,  as 
has  been  pictured  to  our  imaginations.  I  may  have  occasion  again  to  refer  to  them 
in  ihustration  of  my  views. 

In  taking  leave,  for  the  present,  of  those  calculations  which  I  have  introduced  as 
correctives  of  the  estimates  made  on  the  other  sidej  1  cannot  forbear  remarking  on  the 
seeming  inconsistency  of  gentlemen,  who  losing  no  occasion  to  throw  ridicule  on 
numbers,  and  pohtical  arithmetic,  have  arrayed  them  against  us,  in  a  most  formidable 
phalanx,  and  have  drawn  trora  them  their  strongest  and  most  impressive  arguments. 
I  have  no  doubt,  that  the  tables  of  population  and  taxes,  which  have  gone  out  to  the 
public,  with  the  arithmetical  calculations  of  gentlemen,  on  the  other  side,  which  have 
accompanied  them,  and  their  inferences  of  change  of  power,  and  danger  of  oppres- 
sive taxation,  have  been  the  principle  cause  of  the  great  excitement  in  the  public 
mind,  and  of  the  alarm  which  is  ielt  in  the  Eastern  districts  of  the  Commonwealth; 
an  excitement  and  alarm  which  have  already  done  mischief,  and  threaten  to  do  more  ; 
which  have  already,  through  the  instrumentality  of  instructions,  deprived  an  hono- 
rable member  of  his  seat  on  this  floor,  and  may  soon  confound  the  councils  of  this 
Convention.  I  mean  not  at  all  to  interpose  between  the  district  and  its  delegate  : — it 
is  not  for  me  to  enquire  into  the  causes  which  led  to  the  instruction  and  the  conse- 
quent resignation — but  as  a  member  of  this  Convention,  anxious  for  the  harmony  and 
profitable  issue  of  its  labours — as  a  c.tizen  of  the  Commonwealth,  deeply  interested 
in  its  welfare,  I  cannot  but  lament  the  example,  which,  if  followed  generally,  must  de- 
prive this  Assembly  of  its  deliberative  character,  and  deprive  it  of  all  power  to  eflect 
the  purposes  for  which  it  was  appointed.  "While  we  are  sitting  here  deliberating  on 
the  great  interests  of  the  State,  candidlj-  comparing  our  opinions,  endeavouring  to 
reconcile  discordant  views,  adjust  contiicting  claims,  secure  every  right,  and  protect 
every  interest,  ambiguous  words  are  to  be  scattered  among  the  people,  scraps  from 
newspapers  and  slueds  of  arguments  to  be  circulated  among  them — in  a  moment  of 
tamultaous  agitation,  they  are  to  be  collected,  at  the  hustings  and  muster  grounds,  at 
the  taverns  and  cross  roads,  to  form  specific  instructions,  lor  their  deleofates  on  the 
most  delicate  and  ditiicult  of  all  the  subjects  of  their  deliberation — thus,  deprivino- 
them  of  the  power  of  making  or  receiving  concessions,  and  puttino-  an  end  to  all  fur* 
tlier  consultation.  Can  any  considerate  man  be  blind  to  the  coniusion  and  mischief 
to  which  such  measures  must  tend  ?  Do  not  understand  me.  Sir,  as  questioning  the 
right  of  the  constituent  to  instruct  his  representative — this  I  regard  as  one  of  the  set* 
tied  doctrines  of  our  Government,  to  which  1  most  cheerfully  subscribe.  But  surely 
I  cannot  be  mistaken  in  supposing  that  there  never  was  a  more  unfit  occasion  for  ex^ 
ercising  it,  than  that  on  which  the  people  have  endeavoured  to  put  in  requisition,  the 
experience,  the  wisdom,  and  prudence  of  the  State,  not  to  enact  laws,  but  to  propose 
for  the  consideration  of  the  people  themselves,  amendments  to  their  fundamental  iaw» 
if  this  example  is  to  be  followed,  had  we  not  better  return  home,  restore  to  the  peo* 
pie  the  trust  they  have  confided  to  us — tell  them  that  all  hope  of  amendino-  their  Con- 
stitution is  perfectl}^  illusorj' — that  the  solemn  declaration  of  the  rio-ht  of  tlie  majority 
to  reform,  is  indeed  a  visionaiy  theory,  since  it  is  utterly  impracticable  for  the  people 
to  exercise  this  right  without  the  aid  of  representatives,  and  since  those  representa* 
lives  cannot  be  trusted  even  to  confer  together,  and  propose  amendments  ?  I  beo'  par* 
don  for  this  digression,  and  Avill  return  to  the  question  before  the  Conmiittee, "whe- 
ther the  compound  or  simple  basis  shall  be  preferred. 

It  has  been  urged  as  an  objection  to  the  report  of  the  Select  Committee,  tiiat  it  pro- 
poses to  introduce  something  new  into  the  Constitution.  It  certainly  is  not  new  to' 
the  American  Republics,  to  apportion  representation  according  to  tlie  ratio  of  white 
population;  and  whether  it  is  new  to  our  own  Constitution,  it  cannot  be  material,  to 
enquire,  since  the  objection  must  equally  lie  against  the  proposed  amendment.  Both 
propose  a  change  in  the  Constitution,  and  the  question  is.  which  is  preferrable. 

We  are  cautioned,  however,  against  all  chancre,  unless  called  for,  by  strono*  rea- 
sons ; — we  are  referred  to  the  nearly  equal  divisiola  of  parties,  which  probably  exists 
here,  on  this  question — and  are  emphatically  warned  against  the  improprietv  of  an 
important  change,  by  a  lean  majority  of  one  or  two,  forcing  upon  a  lar^e  minority,  a 
Constitution  that  would  be  abhorrent  to  them.  1  readily  ndmit,  thaFno  important 
changes  should  be  made,  that  are  not  called  for  by  clear  and  strono;  reasons,  and  no 
one  can  be  more  sensible  than  I  am,  of  the  imprudence  of  forcins^upon  a  laro-e  mi- 
nority, a  Government  that  is  odious  to  them.  But  the  existinirlnequalitiesm  the 
representation  are  so  glaring,  and  the  discontents  produced  by  it  are  so  strong,  that 
every  one  seems  to  concede  the  propriety  of  some  reform,  and  both  the  propositions 
under  consideration  will  effect  that  reform  to  a  considerable  extent.    If  tlie  reform 


272 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


proposed  by  the  Select  Committee,  be  objectionable,  because  it  is  unacceptable  to  a 
lurge  minority,  would  the  reform  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  be  the 
less  objectionable,  it  being  at  least  as  disagreeable  to  a  small  majority  ?  Or,  shall  we 
be  told  that  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  and  his  friends,  are  not  insisting  on  any 
reform,  but  are  content  with  the  present  Constitution  ?  Still,  however,  the  objection 
recurs  : — it  is  with  the  present  Constitution,  that  we  suppose  the  majc^rity  is  discon- 
tented, and  the  question  again  arises,  shall  tliey  be  compelled  to  submit  to  it?  In 
whatever  light  we  view  it,  therefore,  a  nearly  equal  division  of  opinion  would  present 
matter  for  serious  consideration,  and  not  less  serious  regret.  In  this  view  of  the  case, 
it  may  be  worthy  of  some  attention,  that  if  the  majority  here  should  be  found  in  fa- 
vour of  the  report  of  the  Committee,  and  we  faithfully  represent  the  will  of  our  con- 
stituents, it  is  probable  that  the  majority  of  the  people  who  approve  it,  will  be  larger. 
This  House  being  composed  of  an  equal  number  of  members  from  each  Senatorial 
district,  these  districts  having  been  arranged  according  to  the  Census  of  181 0,  so  as 
to  contain  as  nearly  as  convenient,  equal  numbers  of  white  population — and  the  popu- 
lation of  the  Western  districts,  having  since  increased  by  a  much  greater  ratio  than 
that  of  the  Eastern  districts,  it  is  fair  to  conclude,  that  a  proposition  sustained  here, 
by  a  majority  consisting  chiefly  of  Western  members,  would  be  sustained  by  a  larger 
majority  of  the  people.  We  have  no  warrant,  however,  for  counting  majorities,  at 
present,  on  either  side,  and  it  is  our  duty  to  proceed  with  candour,  and  liberality  to 
examine  the  merits  of  both  propositions,  and  to  recommend  that  which  shall  be  found 
best,  to  as  much  favour  as  possible. 

When  we  have  established  that  the  people  are  the  fountain  of  political  power,  and 
tlieir  happiness  its  object — that  a  majority  of  those  entitled  to  suffrage  have  a  right  to 
reform  their  Constitution,  and  thereby  regulate  the  political  power — it  must  neces- 
sarily follow,  that  the  majority  may  rightfully  retain  the  power  of  ordinary  legislation, 
unless  it  can  be  shown  that  the  object  of  good  Government  will  not  theretjy  be  ob- 
tained. Gentlemen  have,  therefore,  with  great  propriety,  assumed  upon  themselves 
the  burthen  of  proving,  that  in  Virginia,  this  power  in  the  hands  of  tlie  majority, 
would  be  inconsistent  with  the  public  welfare.  They  insist,  that  as  a  leading  object 
of  eJI  Government,  is  the  protection  of  property,  so,  there  is  no  mode  of  affording  that 
protection  so  effectual  and  so  proper,  as  giving  it  a  direct  influence  in  the  Govern- 
ment, by  entitling  it  to  representation.  It  is  by  thus  claiming  representation  for  pro- 
perty, that  they  insist  on  placing  power  in  the  hands  of  the  minority.  Let  us  ex- 
amine the  arguments  by  which  this  claim  is  sustained. 

Gentlemen  tell  us,  that  by  our  own  concessions,  we  surrender  the  power  of  num- 
bers, the  right  of  the  majority,  and  admit  the  propriety  of  giving  property  an  influ- 
ence in  Government,  when  we  agree  to  exclude  many  from  the  polls,  and  require  a 
qualification  in  property,  to  give  the  Right  of  Suffrage.  This  argument  is  founded 
in  mistake-,  we  have  never  advocated  the  power  of  numbers  without  distinction  of 
persons;  all  that  we  have  endeavoured  to  maintain,  is  the  equal  power  of  those  who 
share  the  sovereignty  and  the  consequent  right  of  their  majority.  The  qualification 
of  property  which  we  require,  to  give  admission  into  this  number  is,  with  no  view  to 
give  power  to  property,  but  is,  like  the  qualification  of  age,  and  sex,  an  evidence  only 
of  fitness  for  the  exercise  of  political  power.  If  it  were  intended  to  give  power  to 
property,  the  richest  and  the  poorest  voter  could  not  enjoy  equal  portions  of  power. 
So  far  then,  as  this  illustration  is  entitled  to  respect,  the  argument  founded  upon  it 
turns  in  favour  of  the  equal  right  of  every  voter,  without  reference  to  property,  in 
favour  of  the  simple  basis  of  representation. 

Experience  and  precedent  have  been  appealed  to,  and  the  learned  gentleman  from 
Orano-e,  (Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour,)  has  warned  us  of  the  very  just  distinction  between  ex- 
perience and  experiment ;  and  giving  us  wise  caution  against  the  dangers  of  the  one, 
has  prudently  commended  us  to  the  guidance  of  the  other.  It  was  hardly  to  have 
been  expected,  after  this  salutary  lesson,  that  the  gentleman,  to  sustain  his  argument, 
and  to  enlighten  the  path  of  our  duty,  would  have  looked  for  examples  in  the  twilight 
of  Roman  history.  When  we  substitute  for  our  own,  the  experience  of  other  nations, 
and  other  ages,  we  should  at  least  require  that  it  should  come  to  us  well  attested  by 
authentic  hiltory.  But  I  am  willing  to  allow  to  the  argument  all  the  aid  it  can  de- 
rive, and  avail  m.yself  of  all  the  light  that  can  flow  from  the  example  referred  to.  The 
centuries  and  tribes  of  Pi-ome  are  the  examples  to  v^^hich  our  attention  has  been  called 
—the  former  as  furnishing  a  precedent  of  the  representation  of  property  in  a  repub- 
lic. The  centuries,  it  is  true,  in  which  the  richest  class  of  society  was  represented, 
furnish  to  my  mind,  so  far  as  the  dim  light  of  my  information  enables  me  to  judge, 
a  fair  illustration  of  the  representation  of  property  ;  and  I  ask  whether  this  example 
in  the  Roman  Government  is  seriously  recommended  to  our  imitation  ? 

[  Here  Mr.  Barbour,  in  explanation,  said,  that  he  had  referred  to  the  Roman  repub- 
lic as  furnishincr  an  example  at  one  time  of  the  representation  of  property  alone,  by 
centuries,  and  at  another  time,  of  the  representation  of  numbers  alone,  by  tribes. 


DEBATES    OF  THE 


CONrENTIOX. 


273 


He  had  said  that  he  did  not  approve  either  of  these  extremes — he  vrould  prefer  to 
combine  them,  as  in  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper.] 

This  explanation,  Mr.  Chairman,  does  not  vary  the  view  I  have  taken  of  the  sub- 
ject, nor  can  it  add  force  to  the  example  which  has  been  quoted.  The  centuries  and 
tribes  of  Rome,  were  not  extremes  of  aristocracy  and  democracy  of  which  the  Ro- 
man people  made  experiment  at  dilFerent  times  and  separately.  The}'  existed  toge- 
ther, and  for  ages.  They  vrere  at  the  foundation  of  the  patrician  and  plebeian  orders 
— originated  durincr  the  monarchy,  and  were  continued  in  the  time  of  the  republic. 
They  were  the  inspiring  cause  of  the  angry  dissentions  between  the  different  orders 
of  the  people — of  the  grinding  oppressions  of  tlae  poor,  and  the  lawless  inroads  upon 
the  property  of  tlie  rich.  The  power  of  the  monarch  was  necessar}-  to  balance  the 
contending  factions,  and  restrain  the  dangerous  excesses  of  each — and  in  a  few  short 
years,  less  than  twent}^  after  the  expulsion  of  the  Tarquins.  and  the  destruction  of 
the  monarchy,  these  excesses  led  to  the  appointment  of  the  first  Dictator,  the  reces- 
sion of  the  people  to  tlie  sacred  mount,  and  the  first  serious  petition  for  an  agrarian 
law.  In  the  tribes  the  people  were  not  represented,  but  appeared  in  proper  person  to 
act  their  part  in  public  affairs.  The  scheme  of  centuries  and  tribes  was  designed  to 
balance  numbers  and  wealth  against  each  other  :  but,  the  history  of  the  republic  af- 
fords more  of  warning  against  its  mischiefs  than  connnendation  of  its  success.  1  will 
not,  however,  claim  the  benefit,  of  tiiis  example  and  uro-e  it  as  a  caution  against  the 
danger  of  giving  represent;itiou  to  property  in  our  republic.  I  know  that  our  condition 
and  that  of  the  Roman  people  is  so  essentially  unlike — our  representative  republic  so 
radically  different  from  their  mixture  of  aristocrac^v  and  democracy,  that  it  is  not  safe 
to  reason  from  one  to  tlie  other.  The  Roman  Government,  indeed,  in  the  opinion  of 
Cicero,  its  greatest  admirer,  and  ablest  vindicator,  owed  its  chief  excellence  to  its 
strong  aristocratic  character — a  merit  to  which  our  Government  surely  has  no  claim. 

It  is  utterly  in  vain,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  we  appeal  to  an}-  of  the  ancient  republics 
for  information  to  guide  us.  We  know  them  all  most  imperfectly,  and  the  little  we 
do  know  teaches  us  only  that  they  contain  no  instruction  for  us. 

The  modern  European  republics  will  supply  as  hltle  aid  to  our  deliberations.  We 
should  look  in  vain  to  Venice  or  St.  ^lanno.  to  Holland  or  Switzerland,  for  the  ex- 
perience of  a  S3^stem  like  ours,  operating  upon  a  people  like  ours — or  for  inlormaticn 
to  guide  us  to  the  best  means  of  protecting  the  peculiar  interests  which  arise  out  of 
the  peculiar  population  of  Virginia.  How  would  it  avail  us,  for  example,  to  know 
what  causes  preserved  so  long  the  httie  Italian  repubhc,  with  a  few  thousand  inhabi- 
tants only  on  a  mountain  top.  contented  and  happy,  though  poor,  safe  amidst  surround- 
ing nations,  though  without  military  force,  and  perfeoth'  tranquil  in  the  operations 
of  its  Government,  though  without  the  ordinary  checks  and  balances  !  Or  what 
would  it  profit  us  to  inquire,  hov."  it  has  hapjiened  that  in  the  small  democratic  cantons 
the  liberty  of  the  people,  with  all  the  rights  of  person  and  property,  were  preserved 
for  centuries,  though  every  male  citizen,  above  fifteen  years  of  age,  was  admitted,  in 
proper  person,  to  share  in  the  legislation  of  the  country.^ 

Just  as  little  useful  information  or  salutary  warning  is  furnished  us  on  this  ques- 
tion by  the  experience  of  the  French  repaiilic — a  Government  that  was  thrown  up 
by  a  convulsion  from  the  abyss  of  desp  ttism.  floated  for  a  few  years  on  the  waves  of 
a  bloody  revolution,  and  sank  again,  as  they  subsided,  into  the  bottomless  deep.  Such 
experience  might  teach  us  tlie  utter  unfitness  of  any  people  for  a  Government  to 
which  they  have  been  wholl}''  unused — and  the  great  dangers  which  attend  violent  and 
sudden  transitions  from  one  extreme  to  another — but,  none  of  the  examples  of  the 
European  republics  can  assist  us  in  deciding,  whether  it  is  wisest  in  \'irgiriia  to  base 
the  representation  upon  numbers,  or  property,  or  a  combination  of  both. 

The  British  House  of  Commons  has  been  referred  to,  for  the  purpose  of  showing 
the  intimate  connexion  between  taxation  and  representation,  and  of  proving  that  in 
England,  where  our  system  of  re^iresentation  had  its  birth,  its  foundations  were  laid 
in  the  power  of  imposinof  taxes. 

To  the  experience  of  England,  Mr.  Chairman,  the  American  Statesman  may  in 
general  safely  refer.  We  are  better  acquainted  with  her  history,  more  familiar  with 
her  institutions,  than  with  those  of  any  other  foreign  country.  From  her  common 
law,  her  jury  trial,  habeas  corpus  and  magna  charta.  we  learn  the  most  valuable  les- 
sons of  jurisprudence,  and  from  these  our  ancestors  imbibed  their  love  of  civil  liberty, 
their  respect  for  the  rights  of  persons  and  the  rights  of  property.  In  her  Govern- 
ment we  see  a  well-adjusted  balance  of  power ;  and  with  all  its  imperfections  on  its 
head,  it  is  probably  better  suited  than  any  other  to  her  own  peculiar  condition.  I  can 
readily  understand  how  its  kincr,  lords  and  commons,  with  all  the  inequalities  of  its 
representation,  may  be  well  adapted  to  the  Government  of  England,  and  yet  neither 
of  them  be  a  fit  model  for  our  imitation.  A  mixed  monarchy,  for  the  Government  of 
an  insular  people,  surrounded  bv  powerful  nations,  and  under  the  necessity  of  main- 
taining espensive  naval  and  military  establishments,  may  find  its  strength  and  its  ef» 


274 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


ficacy  in  those  very  provisions,  which,  in  a  country  like  ours,  would  be  justly  regard- 
ed as  intolerable  defects.  We  could  not  here  tolerate  either  its  monarchy,  its  aristo- 
cracy, or  the  corruptions  of  its  House  of  Commons. 

But,  the  example  of  the  House  of  Commons  is  quoted  to  prove  that  representation 
is  founded  on  taxation.  True,  Sir,  that  at  an  early  period  of  the  English  history,  the 
independent  spirit  of  that  people  contested  with  their  monarch,  the  right  of  taxing 
them  without  their  consent,  and  at  last  succeeded  in  maintaining  that  no  contribu- 
tions should  be  levied  upon  them,  but  such  as  were  freely  given  in  Parliament  through 
their  representatives.  It  is  true,  also,  that  the  Knights  and  Burgesses,  originally 
summoned  by  the  monarch  to  vote  supplies  only,  availed  themselves  of  this  power  to 
extort  from  the  throne,  a  participation,  Avith  the  King  and  his  nobles,  in  the  legisla- 
tion of  the  kingdom.  But,  what  Monarch  or  noble  Barons  have  we  here,  from  whom 
to  purchase,  with  our  treasure,  tiie  right  of  egislation.''  And  what  peculiar  connec- 
tion can  there  be,  between  taxation  and  representation,  in  a  country,  where  it  is  as 
much  the  settled  doctrine  that  the  people  siiall  be  bound  by  no  laws  made  without 
their  consent,  as  it  is  that  they  shall  not  be  taxed  without  their  consent?  When  you 
have  estaiilished  that  the  people  cannot  be  taxed  without  the  consent  of  themselves 
or  their  representatives,  you  have  cidvanced  no  farther  in  ascertaining  how  represen- 
tation is  to  be  apportioned  among  the  peo])le,  than  when  the  broad  principle  is  ac- 
knowledged that  no  law,  affecting  life,  liberty,  or  property,  is  binding  on  the  people 
without  their  consent.  Surely,  the  example  of  the  House  of  Commons  can  give  no 
support  to  the  proposition,  that  representation  should  be  apportioned  in  any  degree  to 
taxation.  The  people  of  England  never  insisted,  that  each  man  shonld  vote  his  own 
contribution,  that  the  votes  of  their  representatives  should  be  valued  according  to 
the  amount  of  their  respective  contributions,  or  that  the  several  interests  on  which 
contributions  were  levied,  should  be  represented,  in  the  proportion  of  their  wealth. 
The  poorest  borough,  and  the  richest  city,  the  largest  and  the  smallest  shire,  has  its 
representation,  Avithout  any  reference  to  wealth,  amount  of  taxes  or  population.  The 
forty  counties  in  England,  send  each  two  members  to  Parliament,  notwithstanding 
their  great  disparity  in  wealth  and  populat  on,  ;md  the  residue  of  the  513  members, 
furnished  by  England,  are  supplied  by  the  large  cities  and  the  small  boroughs  without 
the  least  regard  to  their  wealth,  or  their  contributions  to  the  Government:  the  large 
majority  of  them,  are  comparatively  poor  and  insignificant,  while  some  of  them 
would  scarcely  be  able  to  defray  the  expenses  of  their  members  during  a  single  ses- 
sion, perh  ips  not  able  to  pay  for  the  wine  drank  by  them  at  a  single  dinner.  The 
great  county  of  Middlesex,  and  its  towns  of  London  and  Westminster  send  eight 
members  to  Parliament.  If  they  were  represented  in  proportion  to  their  taxation, 
they  would  probably  furnish  a  majority  of  the  House  of  Commons.  A  statement 
made  by  Burgh,  the  great  advocate  of  English  reform,,  referred  to,  probably  by  the 
gentleman  from  Culpeper,  (Mr.  J.  S.  Barbour)  shews  that  in  the  latter  part  of  the 
seventeenth  century,  Middlesex  and  its  towns  paid  265  parts  out  of  513, of  the  whole 
land  tax  of  the  kino-dom,  permanent  and  annual  ;  so  that  a  proportionate  representa- 
tion would  have  given  them  a  decided  majority  of  the  v/hole  number  of  English 
members. 

I  cannot  here  f<^rbear  to  remark,  that  gentlemen  have  seriously  objected  to  the  re- 
presentation of  numbers,  because  of  its  tendency  to  throw  the  power  of  Government 
into  the  hands  of  small  populous  districts,  whose  representatives,  acting  in  concert, 
would  exert  an  injurious  influence  over  the  legislation  of  the  country.  They  tell  us 
that  Boston,  or  New  York,  or  even  Baltimore,  represented  in  proportion  to  its  num- 
bers, would  soon  controul  the  councils  of  its  State.  And  what  is  the  remedy  pro- 
posed for  that  evil  ?  Instead  of  a  salutary  check,  by  limiting  the  representation  in 
such  overgrown  districts  ;  by  anticipating  the  probable  growth  of  the  tide-water  towns 
in  wealth  and  population,  and  limiting  their  representation  to  a  prescribed  number,  it 
is  proposed  to  give  them  additional  power  in  the  Government,  by  adding  their 
wealth  to  their  numbers.  The  city  of  Richmond,  which,  upon  the  ratio  of  the  white 
population,  would  be  entitled,  at  this  time,  to  one  member  only,  would  be  entitled  on 
the  ratio  of  its  taxes  to  more  than  four,  and  on  the  combined  ratio  to  nearly  three. 

The  principles  of  our  revolution  have  been  appealed  to ;  and  it  has  been  supposed 
that  the  spirit  of  our  fathers,  which  refused  submission  to  taxes  imposed  by  a  Govern- 
ment, in  which  they  were  not  represented,  should  inspire  a  just  opposition  to  every 
scheme  of  representation,  which  was  not  apportioned,  in  some  degree,  to  tiie  amount 
of  taxes  imposed.  If  this,  indeed,  were  the  true  principle  of  the  revolution,  is  it  not 
wonderful,  how  little  regard  was  paid  to  it  by  the  fathers  of  the  revolution.''  That  it 
did  not  find  some  conspicuous  place  in  their  Declarations  of  Rights,  or  have  a  con- 
trolling influence  in  the  provisions  of  the  Constitutions  which  they  themselves  form^ 
ed  ?  But  do  gentlemen  seriously  believe,  that  the  war  of  the  revolution  originated  in 
a  desire  to  obtain  a  representation  in  the  British  Parliament,  proportioned  to  our  po- 
pulation, or,  indeed,  any  representation  at  all  They  certainly  do  not;  for  they  ask 
us,  almost  in  derision,  what  would  have  been  the  fate  of  a  proposition  from  the  Bri' 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONTENTION. 


275 


tish  Parliament,  to  grant  her  colonies  a  representation  in  the  House  of  Commons, 
proportionate  to  their  population,  on  condition  that  the}'  would  submit  to  be  taxed? 
I  unite  with  the  gentlemen  in  supposing,  that  our  fathers  had  too  niuch  good  sense, 
too  much  prudence  and  foresight,  to  have  consented  to  surrender  their  own  House  of 
Burgesses,  their  own  power  of  legislating  for  tliemselves,  and  taxing  themselves,  sub- 
ject only  to  the  royal  negative,  to  have  bound  themselves  indissolubly  to  a  Govern- 
ment, acting  at  the  distance  of  3000  miles  from  them  ;  to  have  sunk  tlieir  consequence 
and  their  power,  by  becoming  an  integer  of  the  British  nation  ;  and  have  abandoned 
forever,  all  hope  of  independence.  I  unite  with  them  in  believing  that  the  proposi- 
tion would  have  been  rejected  ;  and  not  less  certainly  would  it  have  been  rejected,  if 
they  had  been  offered  a  representation,  proportioned  to  their  population  and  taxes 
combined.  The  principles  of  the  revolution  teach  us.  that  no  people  shcu'd  be  taxed 
by  a  Government,  in  which  they  ai-e  not  represented  ;  but  they  do  not  instruct  us, 
that  representation  and  taxation  should  bear  any  given  ratio  to  each  other.  Thej 
would  rather  lead  to  the  conclusion,  that  as  representation  is  the  organ,  through  which 
the  public  will  acts  upon  the  public  interest,  it  should  be  proportioned  with  the  sole 
view  of  fairly  embodying  that  will. 

Gentlemen,  endeavoring  to  fortify  themselves  with  authority,  and  seeming  desirous 
to  supply  force  by  numbers,  have  invoked  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  and 
of  -several  States  of  the  Union. 

They  suppose  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  to  furnish  an  example  worthy 
of  great  respect;  because,  in  apportioning  representation  among  the  several  States.it 
has  abandoned  the  guide  of  white  population  ;  has  adopted  the  Federal  number,  which, 
in  effect,  gives  representation  to  propertv,  and  has  provided,  that  representatives  and 
■direct  taxes,  shall  be  apportioned,  according  to  the  same  standard.  iS'eed  1  remark  on. 
the  inconsistencies  of  gentlemen,  who,  while  they  quote  the  example  of  the  Federal 
Constitution,  lose  no  opportunity  to  reproach  the  Federal  Government,  with  corrup- 
tion and  mal-administration — who,  while  they  hold  up  the  provisions  of  that  Con- 
stitution, as  fit  models  for  our  imitation,  take  great  pains  to  inform  us,  how  utterly  it 
kas  failed  to  attain  the  great  ends  of  its  adoption  ;  how  it  has  been  wrested  from  its 
original  purpose,  and  made  the  engine  of  injustice  and  oppression  ZSo,  Sir,  I  enter- 
tain too  much  respect  for  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  to  allow  myself  to 
repel  the  argument  drawn  from  it,  by  relying  on  the  imputations  which  have  beea 
siade  on  its  practical  operation.  I  regard  it  as  one  of  the  happiest  efforts  of  humais. 
wisdom,  prudence  and  foresight.  Considering  the  intrinsic  difficulty  of  the  subject — 
the  delicacy  and  importance  of  the  interests  to  be  adjusted — the  jealousies  to  be 
soothed — the  diversity  of  opinions  to  be  consulted  and  harmonized — the  opposing  powd- 
ers to  be  balanced — it  is  really  wonderful  how  admirably  the  work  has  be^?n  perform- 
ed, with  how  much  fitness  the  means  have  been  adapted  to  the  end.  and  how  muck 
practical  good  has  been  attained.  The  errors  aiid  abuses  in  the  Government,  which 
certainly  have  not  been  fev>'  or  trivial,  and  which  deserve  not  to  be  excused  or  pallia- 
ted, are  incident  to  the  imperfection  of  human  institutions,  and  the  incurable  frailty 
of  human  nature,  and  ought  not,  perhaps,  to  be  ascribed  to  any  particular  fault  in  the 
Constitution.  To  the  example  of  this  Constitution,  then,  I  am  willing  to  pay  great 
deference  and  respect ;  but  we  must  be  careful  not  to  misapply  the  example.  We 
Biust  recollect,  that  we  are  not  the  deputies  of  thirteen  independent  sovereignties, 
endeavouring  to  form  a  confederacy,  and  establish  a  Government,  charged  with  its 
foreign  relations,  commercial  and  diplomatic,  with  the  conduct  of  its  wars,  with  the 
common  defence,  and  with  the  preservation  of  peace  and  harmony  among  its  several 
members — that  we  are  not  charo;ed  with  the  duty  of  surrendering  a  part,  and  retain- 
ing a  part  of  the  sovereignty  of  independent  States — tliat  we  are  the  delegates  of  a 
single  people,  members  of  the  same  political  society,  owino;  an  undivided  allegiance  to 
the  same  Governmen! — living  under  a  Constitution  which  acknowledges  the  right  of 
the  .majority  to  reform — and  now  ehargfed  with  the  duty  of  making  such  reforms  as 
will  best  assure  a  fair,  just,  and  wise  expression  of  the  public  will,  on  those  measures 
of  internal  domestic  legislation,  which  are  intended  to  secure  the  property,  liberty, 
and  life  of  every  citizen,  and  promote  the  prosperitv  and  happiness  of  all. 

It  is  obvious,  then,  that  as  the  districts  which  we  represent,  have  no  separate  in- 
dependent sovereignty,  none  of  them  can  impose  a  veto  on  our  measures,  none  pre- 
scribe indispensible  conditions  of  our  action — while,  in  the  Federal  Convention,  each 
State,  even  the  smallest,  could  dictate  the  terms,  on  which  alone  it  v.-ould  be  bound 
by  the  measures  agreed  upon.  Whatever,  therefore,  we  can  fairly  trace  to  that  spirit 
of  compromise  and  concession,  which  was  indispensible  to  the  success  of  the  Fede- 
ral Convention,  will  lose  its  authority  here,  in  a  discussion  of  what  is  right  in  princi- 
ple— what  will  be  just  and  wholesome  in  practice — what  the  majority  ought  in  pru- 
dence to  adopt.  A  little  attention  to  the  liistory  of  the  Constitution  of  tlie  United 
States,  will  show,  I  think,  that  the  apportionment  of  representation  among  the  seyfi- 
ral  States,  was  the  result  of  that  spirit  of  compromise  and  concessioru 


276 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


When  the  articles  of  confederation  were  reported  to  the  old  Congress  in  July,  1776, 
they  proposed  that  contributions  to  the  General  Gcvernxnent  should  be  apportioned 
among-  the  several  States,  in  proportion  to  the  whole  number  of  inhabitants  in  each, 
and  that  each  State  should  have  an  equal  vote  in  the  councils  of  the  nation.  Both 
these  propositions  were  strenuously  debated.  It  was  agreed  by  all,  that  contributions 
should  be  in  proportion  to  the  wealth  of  the  respective  States — in  proportion  to  their 
ability  to  pay — but  there  was  great  ditference  of  opinion  as  to  the  measure  of  that 
wealth.  The  Southern  members  seriously  contended,  that  the  most  accurate  measure 
Was  the  number  of  freemen  ;  that  slaves  were  property  only,  and  no  more  a  standard 
of  wealth  than  cattle  or  other  property  ;  while  the  Northern  members  contended,  that 
the  v^hole  number  of  inhabitants  was  the  better  measure  ;  because,  although  slaves 
Were  property,  they  were  productive  labourers,  and  the  labour  of  a  country  was  the 
surest  measure  of  its  wealth.  A  member  from  Virginia  suggested,  that  the  labour  of 
two  slaves  was  not  more  than  equivalent  to  the  labour  of  one  white  man,  and  pro- 
posed that  two  slaves  should  be  counted  as  one,  in  the  apportionment  of  taxes  : — And 
a  member  from  Pennsylvania,  Dr.  Witlierspoon,  was  of  opinion,  that  the  best  measure 
of  the  wealth  of  a  nation,  was  the  value  of  its  lands  and  houses.  On  the  question  of 
Suffrage,  the  smaller  States  insisted,  it  was  due  to  their  independence,  and  essential 
to  their  preservation,  that  they  should  each  have  an  equal  vote  with  the  larger  States, 
while  the  larger  contended,  that  the  vote  of  each  State  should  be  proportioned  to  the 
numbers  represented  in  each,  or  if  not,  to  the  amount  of  their  contributions.  Mr. 
Wilson  of  Pennsylvania  thought  "  that  taxation  should  be  in  proportion  to  wealth, 
but  that  representation  should  accord  vv'ith  the  number  of  freemen."  These  articles 
of  confederation  having  been  debated  from  time  to  time  for  two  years,  were  adopted 
in  July,  1778,  making  the  value  of  lands  and  houses,  the  standard  of  contribution  from 
the  several  States,  and  giving  to  each  State  an  equal  vote  in  Congress  ;  the  larger 
States  thus  s;irrendering  their  claim  to  power,  as  the  price  of  that  union  which  was 
indispensible  to  success  to  the  common  cause,  in  which  the  interests  of  all  were  em- 
barked. 

Experience  soon  demonstrated,  that  however  just  the  standard  of  contribution 
which  had  been  adopted,  it  was  too  expensive  and  inconvenient  for  political  purposes. 
Remonstrances  were  presented  against  it,  which  resulted  in  a  resolution  of  Congress 
to  propose  as  a  substitute  for  it,  the  apportionment  of  contributions,  according  to  the 
federal  number,  in  which  the  labour  of  five  slaves  is  regarded  as  equal  to  the  labour 
of  three  free  men.  This  resolution  was  adopted  in  April  1783,  and  a  committee  con- 
sisting of  Mr.  Madison,  Mr.  Ellsworth,  and  Mr.  Hamilton,  was  appointed  to  address 
a  communication  to  the  several  States  recommending  it  with  other  amendments  to 
their  adoption.    In  their  address  to  the  States,  the  Committee  thus  speaks  of  it : 

This  rule,  although  not  free  from  objections,  is  liable  to  fewer  than  any  other  that 
could  be  devised.  The  only  material  difficulty  which  attended  it,  in  the  deliberations 
of  Congress,  was  to  fix  t]ie  jJToper  difference,  between  the  labour  and  industry  of  free  in,' 
liahitaMs  and  of  all  other  inhabitants.  The  ratio  ultimately  agreed  on,  was  the  eifect 
of  mutual  concession." 

The  substitute  had  been  approved  by  eleven  out  of  the  thirteen  States,  but  the  con- 
currence of  the  other  two  not  having  been  signified,  and  unanimity  being  necessary, 
it  does  not  appear  to  have  been  adopted  as  an  article  of  the  confederation. 

When  the  Federal  Convention  assembled  in  17b7,  and  had  agreed  to  transfer  to 
Congress  the  exclusive  power  over  imposts  and  duties,  almost  the  whole  power  of  in- 
direct taxation — there  seems  to  have  been  no  difficulty  at  all  in  regulating  the  propor- 
tions in  which  direct  taxes  should  be  levied  in  the  several  States.  The  Federal  num- 
ber, as  recommended  by  Congress,  and  approved  by  eleven  States,  gave  the  obvious 
rule  of  apportionment,  and  I  believe  it  Was  adopted  without  opposition.  It  was,  how- 
ever, an  arduous  task  to  regulate  the  power  of  the  several  States,  in  the  new  Govern- 
ment. Here  arose  the  delicate  and  difficult  questions,  between  sovereigns  having 
equal  rights,  claiming  equal  power,  but  possessing  unequal  numbers,  and  unequal 
wealth : — The  smaller  States  preferred  again  their  claim  to  equal  power — the  larger, 
their's  to  a  just  apportionment;  and  among  themselves,  they  difiered  as  to  the  rule  of 
apportionment,  whether  according  to  the  whole  number  of  inhabitants,  the  number  of 
free  inhabitants,  or  the  amount  of  contributions.  These  conflicting  claims,  after  pro- 
tracted debate,  presenting  difficulties  which  threatened  entire  abortion  to  all  the  la- 
bours of  the  Convention,  resulted  in  compromise.  Mr.  Wilson  of  Pennsylvania,  who," 
in  1776,  had  expressed  the  opinion,  that,  while  taxation  should  be  in  proportion  to 
Wealth,  representation  should  accord  with  the  number  of  freemen,  proposed  as  the 
basis  of  representation  in  the  House  of  Representatives,  the  Federal  number,  and  re- 
commended it,  as  having  been  approved,  by  eleven  of  the  thirteen  States,  as  the  pro- 
per measure  of  contributions.  It  was  acceded  to  by  a  majority,  and  submitted  to 
by  all,  when  the  small  States  had  been  conciliated,  by  a  provision,  that  each  should 
have  equal  power  in  the  Senate. 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


277 


It  is  manifest,  from  this  review,  that  the  ratio  of  representation  in  Congress,  was 
adjusted  less  upon  considerations  of  what  was  just  and  right,  in  relation  to  tlie  per- 
sons represented,  or  of  what  was  wise  and  proper,  for  the  protection  of  property,  than 
Upon  principles  of  concession  and  compromise' — and  it  follows,  that  the  example  can- 
not be  proper  for  our  imitation,  till  that  day  shall  arrive  ;  which,  may  God,  in  his 
mercy,  forever  avert! — when  the  large  districts  of  our  State,  having  separated  from 
each  other,  and  formed  independent  Governments,  shall  have  sent  deputies  to  form 
for  them,  a  Federal  Constitution. 

That  the  apportionment  of  representation  according  to  Federal  numbers  was  not 
intended  to  alford  protection  to  the  slaves  of  the  Southern  States,  is  plainly  to  be  in- 
ferred from  the  utter  inadequacy  of  the  means  to  the  end.  It  could  afford  no  such 
protection,  because  it  left  the  five  Southern  States,  the  principal  slave-holders,  in  a 
decided  minority,  in  the  House  of  Representatives,  while  they  were  in  a  still  smaller 
minority  in  the  Senate.  The  protection  to  that  property,  Irom  the  power  of  Con- 
gress, is  to  be  found,  in  the  absence  of  all  authority  to  legislate  concerning  it,  except 
Iby  the  imposition  of  taxes,  and  in  the  restraint  upon  the  power  to  lay  any  capitation 
or  other  direct  tax,  unless  in  the  proportion  of  the  Federal  numbers. 

The  provisions  of  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States  do  not  warrant  the  con- 
clusion, that  it  was  intended  to  apportion  representation,  in  the  popular  branch  of  the 
Legislature,  to  the  contributions  of  the  respective  States.  The  contributions  of  the 
States  are  drawn  essentially  from  imposts  and  duties,  and  there  is  no  attempt  to  ap- 
portion representation  to  them.  It  was  manifest  that  the  revenue  from  this  source 
would  furnish  the  ordinary  income  of  the  Government,  and  that  direct  taxes  would 
be  the  subject  only  of  occasional  resort.  Yet  the  represtntition  is  the  same  whether 
direct  taxes  are  levied  or  not.  In  truth,  direct  taxes  and  representation  are  not  ap- 
portioned to  each  other ;  they  are  only  referred  to  a  common  standard,  tlie  Federal 
number,  which  is  to  govern  the  one  always,  whether  the  other  exist  or  no,  and  govern 
that  other  casually  when  called  into  existence. 

But  suppose  it  conceded,  that  it  was  the  object  of  the  Federal  Constitution  to  ap- 
portion representation  and  contributions,  to  each  other;  and  conceded,  moreover, 
that  such  apportiomnent  was  right  up.m  principle  ;  is  there  nothing  due  to  the  con- 
sideration, that  while  to  the  General  Government  is  committed  the  conduct  of  our 
external  relations  alone,  the  State  Governments  have  charge  of  all  our  internal  al- 
fairs — while  the  Federal  Government  acts  in  the  general  upon  great  and  common  in- 
terests, and  upon  large  masses,  the  Stiite  Governments  act  upon  the  minor  sub-divi- 
ded interests  and  upon  each  individual,  in  every  relation  which  he  bears  to  society 
Is  there  no  fair  inference  from  this  coiisideration,  that  while  a  representation  appor- 
tioned to  taxes,  might  fairly  embody  the  public  will,  in  the  Federal  Councils,  and 
give  sufficient  protection  to  the  various  interests  on  which  they  act;  a  representation 
in  proportion  to  the  number  of  free  men,  might  be  required  in  Virginia,  to  express 
fairly  the  will  of  her  people,  to  represent  and  protect  all  the  various  interests  on 
which  her  Government  continually  acts 

The  Constitutions  of  Massachusetts,  New-Hampshire,  South  Carolina  and  Georgia, 
are  referred  to,  as  furnishing  examples  of  a  representation  of  property  in  Republican 
Governments;  and  the  gentleman  from  Orange,  (Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour,)  particularly 
commends  to  our  attention  the  experience  of  Massachusetts,  who,  after  thirty  or  forty 
years'  trial  of  her  Government,  has  approved  this  representation,  by  refusing  to  alter 
it,  at  a  late  revision  of  her  Constitution.  In  Massachusetts,  the  representation  in  the 
Senate  is  based  upon  the  ratio  of  taxes,  with  a  provision  that  no  district  shall  send 
more  than  six  members ;  and  in  the  House  of  Representatives,  it  is  based  on  the 
number  of  taxable  polls,  each  election  district  being  entitled  to  one  for  the  first  one 
hundred  and  fifty  polls,  and  one  in  addition  for  every  two  hundred  and  twenty-five 
above  that  number.  The  election  districts  are  large,  and  have  become  populous,  so 
that  each  is  now  entitled  to  many  representatives — Boston,  for  example,  to  about  se- 
venty. But  the  districts  are  not  required  to  elect  the  whole  number ;  each  sends 
such  proportion  of  its  whole  delegation  as  it  thinks  proper — and  generally  they  send 
but  a  small  proportion  of  them.  It  is  this  Constitution  which  the  experience  of 
Massachusetts  has  not  induced  her  to  alter.  Would  any  gentleman  recommend  the 
constitution  of  both  branches  of  her  Legislature,  as  a  model  for  our  imitation.? 
Would  he  give  to  our  election  districts  the  power  of  electing  from  one  to  seventy 
members,  as  they  thouglit  fit  ?  If  he  would  not  be  governed  by  the  experience  of 
Massachusetts,  as  to  one  branch  of  her  Legislature,  why  should  he  desire  us  to  be 
governed  by  it,  with  respect  to  the  other  ?  But  if  we  are  to  be  governed  by  it,  what 
does  it  teach  ns?  Sure'y,  not  that  a  check  upon  the  power  of  the  people,  should  be 
introduced  into  the  populir  branch  of  the  Legislature,  by  giving  representation  to 
property  there;  but  that  such  check  should  be  introduced  into  the°Senate  :  it  teaches 
us  to  reject  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  which  it  has  been  invoked 
to  support. 


278 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTIOK. 


The  Constitution  of  New-Hampsliire  is  similar  to  that  of  Massachusetts,  and  re- 
quires no  particular  commentary.  That  of  South  Carolina  has  been  most  relied  on, 
as  furnishing  a  more  appropriate  example.  South  Carolina,  a  slave-holding  State,  by 
her  Constitution  adopted  in  the  year  1790,  had  a  prescribed  number  of  Representa* 
tives  and  Senators  from  each  election  district,  not  var3nng  witli  the  changes  of  popu- 
lation, and  not  apportioned  thereto.  In  1803,  the  constitution  of  her  House  of  Re- 
presentatives was  changed,  by  introducing  into  it  the  precise  compound  basis,  now- 
proposed  to  us  by  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper — the  Senate  was  left  as  formerly, 
composed  of  a  prescribed  nuinber  of  members  from  each  election  district.  The 
precedent,  as  it  regards  the  popular  branch  of  the  Legislature,  seems  to  be  in  point, 
and  how  far  we  shall  respect  its  authority,  it  is  for  the  good  sense  of  this  Committee 
to  decide.  The  slave  population,  I  learn,  abounded  in  the  lower  districts  of  South 
Carolina,  as  it  does  in  the  lower  districts  of  Virginia;  tliere,  as  here,  the  slave  popu- 
lation was  small  in  the  Western  districts,  the  white  population  rapidly  increasing — ^ 
its  representation  very  unequal — the  people  of  those  districts  insisting  on  a  more 
equal  representation — and  the  people  of  the  Eastern  districts  fearing,  that  if  the  power 
passed  into  the  hands  of  the  Western  people,  their  property  would  be  endangered. 
The  Eastern  districts  anticipating  the  time  when  they  would  not  be  able  to  resist  the 
demands  of  the  growing  population  of  the  West,  and  availing  themselves  of  their 
great  ascendancy  in  both  branches  of  the  Legislature,  adopted  the  amendment  which 
fixed  the  basis  of  representation  in  the  popular  branch  upon  the  compound  basis  of 
taxes  and  white  population.  Their  Constitution  authorised  amendments,  by  majori- 
ties of  two-thirds  of  both  Houses  of  the  Legislature,  at  two  successive  sessions.  It 
v/as  by  such  a  concurrent  vote  that  this  amendment  was  adopted,  and  there  can  be 
iio  stronger  evidence  of  the  ascendancy  which  at  that  time  the  Eastern  districts  had 
in  the  Legislature.  That  an  overwhelming  majority  then,  should  have  imposed  such 
terms  upon  the  minority,  can,  in  my  humble  judgment,  furnish  no  good  reason,  why 
the  minority  liere  should  impose  lilie  terms  upon  a  majority.  But  the  subsequent 
history  of  South  Carolina  furnishes  the  strongest  refutation  of  the  argument  which 
upheld  the  policy  of  this  measure  there,  and  now  recommends  it  to  us ;  for,  notwith- 
standing this  expedient  of  the  compound  basis,  the  political  power,  in  the  popular 
branch  of  the  Legislature,  has  passed  from  the  Eastern  slave-holders  to  the  Western 
freemen,  a,nd  yet  the  Government  proceeds  in  perfect  harmony,  and  I  am  well  in- 
formed, that  danger  to  the  property  of  the  East,  is  in  no  wise  threatened,  and  is  no 
longer  feared.  Why  then  "should  danger  be  feared,  from  permitting  the  Western 
freemen  of  Virginia,  to  acquire  political  power  in  the  popular  branch  of  the  Virginia 
Legislature  ? 

By  the  Constitution  of  Georgia,  adopted  in  1708,  their  Senate  is  composed  of  one 
member  from  each  county,  and  their  House  of  Representatives  has  a  graduated  re- 
presentation based  upon  the  Federal  number.  How  this  operates  in  the  practical  dis- 
tribution of  power,  or  upon  the  interests  of  society,  we  are  not  informed.  We  can- 
aot  therefore  appreciate  the  example. 

But,  if  this  question  were  tried  by  the  example  of  our  sister  States,  surely  the 
weight  of  authority  would  greatly  preponderate  against  the  limitation  which  is  pro- 
posed, upon  the  power  of  the  free  inhabitants.  Among  the  slave-holding  States, 
while  Maryland  and  North  Carolina  have  a  county  representation  without  regard  to 
numbers,  Louisiana  has  its  House  of  Representatives  apportioned  according  to  the 
-qualified  voters,  and  a  Senate  with  fixed  numbers  from  prescribed  districts— Kentucky, 
its  representatives  apportioned  to  the  qualified  electors,  and  Senate  to  the  free  male 
inhabitants  above  twenty-one  years— Mississippi  has  representatives  apportioned  to 
free  white  inhabitants,  her  Senators  to  the  free  white  taxable  inhabitants— Alabama 
has  both  Houses  based  upon  free  white  inhabitants— Missouri,  both  based  upon  free 
White  male  inhabitants— and  Tennessee  upon  the  taxable  inhabitants — that  is,  as  I 
am  well  informed,  free  inhabitants,  on  whom  taxes  may  be  imposed.  Here  are  six 
slave-holding  States,  in  most,  if  not  all  of  which,  the  slave  population  is  very  une- 
qually distributed.  In  none  of  them  has  it  been  deemed  necessary  to  protect  their 
slaves  by  restraints  on  the  power  of  the  free  inhabitants,  and  in  none  of  them  do 
we  learn  that  there  has  been  the  least  cause  to  apprehend  any  danger  to  this  pro- 
perty from  the  exercise  of  that  power.  Of  these  States,  Kentucky  and  Tennessee 
has  each  had  between  thirty  and  forty  years'  experience.  j 

In  States  where  there  are  no  slaves,  and  where  political  power  is  distributed  aniong 
the  different  districts  essentially  in  proportion  to  the  number  of  inhabitants,  we  have 
the  examples  of  Pennsylvania,  New- York,  Ohio,  Indiana  and  Illinois,  in  which 
there  has  been  no  attempt  to  guard  property  by  giving  it  representation.  In  the  old 
Constitution  of  New- York,  there  v/as  a  distinction  made  between  the  qualification  ot 
voters  for  members  of  the  two  Houses  ;  a  higher  property  quahfication  being  required 
for  the  voter  in  elections  to  the  Senate ;  but  this  has  been  abandoned  in  the  recent 
change  of  their  Constitution. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


279 


I  profess,  however,  Mr.  Chairman ,  to  pay  hut  Httle  respect  to  any  of  the  examples 
from  the  Constitutions  of  our  sister  States, "quoted  on  the  one  side  or  the  other.  JSone 
of  tlafci  can  be  very  well  understood  by  us ;  all  of  them  have  been  subjected  to  the 
test  of  but  a  span  of  time,  compared  with  the  hfe  of  nations ;  and  all  of  them  are  ta^ 
ken  from  the  infancy  of  our  institutions,  where  our  sparse  population,  the  facility  of 
acquiring  property,  and  our  agricultural  pursuits,  secure  to  us  more  virtue,  and 
more  freedom  from  temptation,  than,  m  future  times,  we  can  reasonably  hope  to 
enjoy. 

Having  disposed  of  the  precedents  which  are  supposed  to  bear  on  the  question  in 
debate,  let  us  consider  the  tv/o  propositions  with  reference  to  tlieir  practical  opera- 
tion— and  in  approaching  this  subject,  I  must  express  my  deep  regret  at  the  appeal 
which  has  been  made  to  the  spirit  of  party  politics.    We  are  told  by  the  gentleman 
from  Chesterfield,  that  one  of  the  objects  of  this  Convention  is  to  change  the  policy 
of  this  State  in  reference  to  the  measures  of  the  General  Government ;  and  he  has 
endeavored  to  alarm  the  party  politician,  with  the  apprehension  that  his  favorite  doc= 
trine  of  State  Rights  would  be  endangered,  by  a  transfer  of  power  from  the  East  to 
the  West.    Mr.  Chairman,  has  not  the  subject  under  consideration  intrinsic  difficul-. 
ties  enough  r    Are  there  not  prejudices,  naturally,  perhaps  inseparably  belonging  to 
it,  which  present  almost  insuperable  obstacles  to  candid  discussion,  to  just  and  wiss 
conclusions  r-^specting  it?    Shall  we,  by  invoking  the  demon  of  party  spirit,  multi^ 
ply  these  difficulties,  inflame  these  prejudices,  bring  discord  into  our  ranks,  and  con-^ 
fusion  to  our  councils.'    Has  it  come  to  this — that  public  opinion  is  to  be  controlled, 
by  retaining  political  power  in  the  hands  of  the  minority Do  our  brethren  of  the 
East  mean  to  deny  us  freedom  of  opinion  respecting  the  affairs  of  the  General  Gcs 
vernment  ?    Do  they  insist  upon  the  privilege  of  thinking  for  us,  as  well  as  legislating 
for  ns?    The  generous  feelings  of  my  friend  from  Chesterfield,  when  the  excite^ 
ment  of  ardent  debate  has  subsided,  will  disclaim,  I  am  sure,  all  aid  from  blind  party 
zeal ;  and  I  trust  that  this  Comnaittee  will  not  for  a  moment  submit  to  its  influence. 
It  has  been  objected  to  the  resolution  of  the  Select  Committee,  that  by  transferring 
the  power  to  the  "West,  it  will  endanger  the  basis  of  representation  in  the  House  of 
Representatives  of  the  United  States  ;  that  is  to  say,  that  if  the  basis  of  white  popu^ 
lation  should  be  established  for  the  House  of  Delegates,  the  people  of  the  West,  fols 
lowing  the  precedent,  ■will  insist  on  arranging  the  Congressional  districts  in  this  State 
upon  the  same  basis,  instead  of  the  basis  of  Federal  numbers,  upon  which  they  have 
heretofore  been  arranged.    I  do  not  believe.  Sir,  that  any  such  danger  exists;  the 
propriety  of  arranging  the  Congressional  districts  upon  the  Federal  basis  is  so  obvi-r 
ous,  and  has  been  so  long  practised,  that  I  do  not  believe  the  change  would  ever  be 
attempted.    But  if  you  fea.r  it,  provide  against  it  in  the  Constitution,  by  an  express 
declaration  that  the  Federal  number  shall  forever  govern  in  arranging  these  districts. 
But  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier  tells  us,  he  does  not  know  that  sucli  a  provision  would 
be  regarded  as  obligatory ;  he  does  not  know  but  that  the  Constitution  of  the  United 
States  would  be  appealed  to  as  paramount  to  tlie  authority  of  the  State  Constitution 
on  tliis  subject.    Does  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier  entertain  the  least  doubt  that  such 
a  provision  in  our  Constitution  would  be  obligatory Can  he  doubt  that  the  State 
Legislature  is  imperiously  bound  by  the  State  Constitution,  in  all  things  not  contrary 
to  the  Federal  Constitution.'    And  can  he  find  any  thing  in  the  Constitution  of  the 
United  States  upon  which  to  rest  a  doubt,  that  it  is  Icwful  to  prescribe  that  the  dis- 
tricts for  electing  members  to  Congress,  shall  be  formed  upon  tiie  basis  which  the 
Constitution  of  the  United  States  itself  has  estabhshed  for  the  vrhole  representation 
of  the  State,    If  we  are  to  be  driven  from  the  path  of  duty  by  sucia  scepticism,  our 
labours  are  at  an  end  ;  for,  why  prescribe  a  qualification  of  suffrage  ?  The  gentleman 
from  Fauquier  does  not  know  that  in  this  age  of  metaphysical  abstraction,  it  will  be 
held  obligatory  upon  the  people.    Why  prescribe  any  basis  of  representation  at  all.? 
The  gentleman  from  Fauquier  does  not  know  that  the  Legislature  will  hold  it  cblioa-- 
tory  upon  them.    Let  us  not,  Sir,  deliver  ourselves  up  to  the  blind  guidance  of  what 
we  do  not  know  ;  but  rather  let  us  be  governed  by  v,-hat  we  do  know,  or  might  know, 
if  we  would  consult  our  reason.   We  ought  to  know,  that  it  is  our  duty  to  settle  this 
question  of  representation  without  influence  from  imaginary  dangers.    We  ought  to 
know  tliat  the  Legislature  of  Virginia  would  never  incur  the  risk  of  losing  its  whole 
representation  in  Congress,  by  electing  all  its  members  in  direct  violation  of  the 
State  Constitution ;  that  they  would  never  incur  the  reproach  of  mankind  by  so  pal- 
pable a  violation  of  duty. 

We  are  tlireatened  with  another  danger,  in  relation  to  the  Federal  Government, 
from  adopting  the  basis  of  white  population.  We  are  told  that  if  "^^irginia,  the  Icro-est 
Southern  State,  disregards  her  slave  population,  in  apportioning  representation  in  the 
State  Legislature,  it  will  weaken  the  argument,  by  which  the  Southern  States  sup- 
port their  right  to  representation  for  that  property,  in  the  Government  of  the  United 
States,  and  may  endanger  the  loss  of  power,  which  that  representation  gives  us, 


280 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION, 


It  should  be  recollected,  that  the  power  which  this  population  gives  us,  in  the  Ge- 
neral Government,  does  not  rest  upon  argument,  hut  upon  compact — was  not  al- 
lowed us  upon  principle,  but  upon  compromise — and  cannot  be  taken  away  frife  us, 
but  by  a  total  departure  from  the  spirit  of  the  compromise  and  an  amendment  of  the 
compact  agreed  to  by  three-fourths  of  the  States,  in  the  Union — and  the  gentleman 
from  Loudoun  (iVIr.  Mercer)  has  shown  how  utterly  impracticable  any  such  amend- 
ment  would  be.  But,  Sir,  this  argument,  that  the  slave  population  was  not  regarded 
in  the  representation  of  those  States  where  slavery  existed,  was  in  full  force" when 
the  Constitution  of  the  United  States  was  adopted — it  was  then  urged  and  repelled. 
The  argument  is  noticed,  in  the  fifty-fourth  number  of  Publius.  The  fact  on  which 
it  rests  is  admitted,  and  the  argument  ably  repelled  by  a  clear  exposition  of  '<  the 
compromising  expedient  of  the  Constitution"' — "  which  regards  the  slave  as  divested 
of  two-fifths  of  the  man."  By  adopting  the  basis  of  white  population,  then,  we  fur- 
nish to  our  adversaries  no  new  and  fearful  argument — but  we  leave  the  old  refu» 
ted  argument  in  the  quiet  grave  which  has  covered  it  for  forty  years, 

We  come  now  to  consider  this  question,  with  reference  to  the  protection  of  pro- 
perty. By  adopting  the  basis  of  white  population,  shall  we  expose  to  danger  that  pe- 
culiar property,  in  which  the  Eastern  districts  have  so  deep  an  interest  ?  I  am  per- 
fectly satisfied,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  you  would  more  effectually  protect  this  property 
by  granting  us  the  simple  ba^ls,  than  by  imposing  on  us  the  compound  basis,  proposed 
by  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper.  Let  us  attentively  and  impartially  examine  this 
question. 

The  whole  danger  apprehended,  rests  upon  the  supposition,  that  the  basis  of  white 
population  will  carry  the  power  of  the  Government  into  the  hands  of  those,  who  will 
be,  comparatively,  but  little  interested  in  this  property  :  And  if  it  can  be  shown,  that 
this  supposition  is  not  correct,  then  it  must  be  admitted,  that  the  danger  is  unreal. 
I  do  not  believe  that  it  is  correct — and  will  submit  to  your  candid  consideration,  the 
reason  of  that  opinion. 

I  have  already  shown  you,  that  taking  the  Auditor's  estimates  of  the  present  popu- 
lation, and  apportioning  the  representation  according  to  the  whole  white  population, 
there  would  be  a  majority  of  eight  members  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  on  the  East 
of  the  Blue  Ptidge  ;  and  apportioning  it  according  to  the  qualified  voters,  there  would 
probably  be  a  majority  of  twenty.  If  the  basis  of  qualified  voters  should  be  adopted, 
there  is  no  definite  period  of  time,  within  the  present  century  or  the  next,  at  which 
any  person  could  say,  with  confidence,  that  this  majority  of  twenty  would  be  over- 
come, by  the  increasing  population  of  the  West.  Indeed,  it  is  very  doubtful  whether 
the  majority  of  qualified  voters  v/ill  ever  be  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge.  Any  one,  who 
v^ill  carefully  examine  this  subject,  in  his  closet,  with  reference  to  the  tables  of  po- 
pulation ;  the  number  of  square  miles  in  each  district ;  the  quantity  of  mountain  and 
arable  land  in  each  ;  their  capacity  to  sustain  population  ;  their  distance  from  mar- 
ket; the  probable  growth  of  their  towns  ;  the  pursuits  of  their  people,  whether  com» 
mercial,  manufacturing,  or  agricultural ;  planting,  farming,  or  grazing  ;  will,  I  think, 
be  satisfied,  that  if  that  time  should  ever  come,  it  is  too  distant  to  have  the  least  in- 
fluence on  our  deliberations. 

The  period  is  not  so  distant  v/hen  the  majority  of  the  white  population,  will  probably 
be  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge  ;  but  when  that  period  will  arrive,  is  exceedingly  uncer- 
tain. The  tables  of  population  show  us,  that  the  relative  increase  of  the  different 
districts,  heretofore,  has  been  very  irregular  ;  and  we  shall  find  our  calculations  of 
their  future  increase,  in  a  great  measure  conjectural.  The  ratio  of  increase  of  the 
white  population,  from  the  year  1790  to  the  present  time,  appears  by  these  tableSj  to 
be  as  follows : 

In  the  first  district,  from     1790  to  1800       83  3-4  per  cent. 

1800  to  1810       47        per  cent, 

1810  to  1820       27  1-2  per  cent. 

1820  to  1829       36  1-5  per  cent. 
In  the  second  district,  from  1790  to  1800       20        per  cent. 

ISOO  to  1810  3-4  per  cent. 

1810  to  1820       11  3-4  per  cent. 

1820  to  1829       14  3-4  per  cent. 
In  the  third  district,  from    1790  to  1800       11  1-2  per  cent. 

1800  to  1810         1        per  cent. 

1810  to  1820  3-4  per  cent.  ... 

1820  to  1829        5  3-lOper  cent.  '  ■  ' 

In  the  fourth  district,  from  1790  to  1800        2        per  cent. 

1800  to  1810  1-4  per  cent,  "  ' 

1810  to  1820         5  1-2  per  cent. 

1820  to  1829         2  2-5  per  cent. 
Thus  you  see,  that  in  the  Western  district,  the  ratio  having  decreased  between  the 
years  1790,  and  1820,  from  83|  per  cent,  to  S7i— appears  by  the  Auditor's  estimate  to 


DEBATES    or    THE  COXVZ^-TIO^^ 


281 


hive  risen  in  the  iast  nine  years,  to  35  1-5  per  cent,  vrhich  is  enuivalent  to  40  per 
cent,  for  ten  years — this  may  be  owing-  to  some  error  in  the  Auditor's  estimate,  or  it 
may  perhaps  be  accounted  lor,  upon  tiie  supp.'jsiti<.»n  that  emigration  from  that  district 
diminished,  within  the  iast  nine  years,  and  migration  to  it  increased.  It  is  certainly, 
however;  not  according  to  the  usual  course  of  things,  that  tliS  ratio  of  increase  in  a 
newly  settled  country  should  rise,  as  the  population  becomes  more  dense. 

You  will  observe,  that  the  Vailey  district  having  remained  nearly  stationary  for  ten 
years  from  18)0  to  1::;10.  increased  11:|  per  cent,  for  the  n«xt  ten  years,  and  14  2-5  per 
cent,  f  )r  the  iast  nine  :  that  tiie  middle  district  remaining  ne  rly  stationary  for  twenty 
years,  from  l.:;00  to  lo2  j,  appears  to  have  increased  upwards  of  -5  per  cent,  for  the  last 
nine ;  and  tiiat  the  tide-water  district  being  nearly  stationary  for  twenty  years  from 
17t}  )  to  IdLO,  increased  in  the  next  ten  years  5^  per  cent.,  and  in  the  last  nine,  about 
2^  per  cent. 

There  can  be  no  doubt,  that  these  irregularities  proceed  in  a  great  degree  from  the 
diSerence  of  emigration  from  ail  the  districts  in  tiie  State,  fast  diminisiiing.  as  the 
Western  States  and  territories  are  becoming  populous,  and  Western  lands  rising  in 
price.  The  tiiue,  therefore,  is  probably  not  distant  when  the  increase  of  our  popula- 
tion will  be  left  cliiefiy  to  its  natural  causes,  and  when  the  ratio  in  each  district  will 
be  nearly  tiie  same. 

1  have  made  a  calculation  of  the  probable  white  population  of  the  several  districts, 
in  the  year  18-50,  upon  the  supposition,  that  the  Auditor's  estimates  are  correct,  that 
the  Western  district  wUl  increase  20  per  cent,  for  the  next  ten  years,  and  10  per  cent, 
for  the  succeeding  ten ;  that  tiie  Valley  district  will  increase  10  per  cent,  for  each 
period  of  ten  years  ;  and  that  the  two  Eastern  districts  will  increase  5  per  cent,  for 
eacii  period  of  ten  years.  Tiie  result  of  th's  calculation  is.  that  in  the  year  18-50,  the 
wiiite  population  of  the  Western  district,  would  be  about  234,000 — that  of  the  Valley 
167,0  »0 — of  the  middle  district  "217.000 — and  the  tide-water  district  178.000 — giving  to 
the  West  of  the  Blue  Bridge,  about  40y,0  >J,  and  to  the  East,  about  305,000.  This  I 
atn  persuaded  is  a  calculation  more  liberal  to  the  West  than  they  are  entitled  to,  and 
it  results  in  giving  them  a  small  uiaj  'rltv  of  white  popidati'"n  in  1850.  From  thence- 
forward they  can  liave  no  reason  to  expect  that  their  population  would  increase  more 
rapidly  than  that  of  the  East.  Look  for  a  moment  at  ihe  comparative  extent  of  the 
two  districts,  and  at  some  of  the  causes  which  would  aficct'the  increase  of  their  popu- 
lation. 

The  two  districts  West  rf  the  Blue  Pvicfre.  contain  '33,8S6  square  miks: — tlie  two 
East  of  tlie  Ridge,  contain  26.774  snu'ire  nides.  Gonsideriiig  the  vast  extent  of  moun- 
tains bevond  the  Blue  Rulge.  it  would  be  giving  to  the  West  a  most  liberal  estimate 
of  its  arable  lands,  to  suppose  tliem  equal  in  quality  to  the  arable  lands  East  of  the 
mountains.  Rehect,  then,  on  the  circumstance,  that  the  whole  lands  of  the  East 
must  be  alwavs  employed  in  planting  and  farming,  whUe  a  very  large  proportion  of 
those  of  the  West,  tiie  whole  extens'  ve  district  from  the  North  Mountain  to  the  West- 
ern boundary,  with  the  exception  only  of  those  narrow  valleys  which  he  convenient 
to  the  navigable  waters,  must  for  ages  to  co  ne,  be  in  the  hands  of  the  grazier  : — re- 
collect too,  that  if  we  should  ever  hive  large  towns  and  extensive  manufactories,  they 
will  seek  the  marts  of  foreign  commerce,  and  probably  be  found  about  the  falls  of  the 
Eastern  rivers — and  I  th'nk  you  will  find  strong  reason  to  believe,  that  the  Eastern 
side  of  the  mountain  wiJl  always  ni  i'n'cain  a  greater  population  than  the  West,  and 
can  never  be  much  inferior  to  it  in  white  popul  ition. 

I  have  heard  it  said,  that  the  Eastern  districts  contain  already,  nearly  as  much 
population  as  thev  could  sustain.  ZSothing  can  be  more  erroneous.  The  middle  dis- 
trict, countinsr  ail  its  inhabitants,  has  a  population  of  about  tv.-enty-eight,  and  the  tide- 
water district,  a  population  of  about  thirty-two,  to  the  square  mile.  Compare  this 
with  the  population  of  older  countries.  In  1811.  Scotland  Ind  a  p:rpui?.tion  of  about 
sixty-four — Wales,  seventv-nine — England,  one  hundred  and  ninety-six.  to  the  square 
mile — France,  about  the  be^rinning  of  this  century,  had  a  population  of  one  hundred 
and  seventv-nine,  to  the  square  mile.  Can  any  one  doubt,  that  the  country  between 
the  Blue  Ridge  and  the  ocean,  is  capable  of  s  istaining  more  population  than  Scotland 
or  Wale^: — and  can  any  crood  reason  be  assigned,  w&y  it  may  not  be  as  poptdous  as 
Enofland  or  France  ? 

If  I  am  right  in  my  estimate  of  the  future  progress  of  white  population,  and  we 
can  be  satisfied,  that  in  the  course  of.  twenty  years,  there  will  be  a  few  p-opulous  coun- 
ties bevond  the  mountains,  essentiillv  slave-holding  counties,  having  a  kindred  inter- 
est with  the  Ei^t,  in  the  crood  arovern  neat  of  that  property,  and  its  exemption  from 
unjust  burthens,  then  you  have  assurance  tliat  the  basis  of  wliite  population  wiU  not 
carrv  the  power  of  the  Government,  into  unfriendlv  hands. 

Referrinor  afain  to  our  tables,  we  find  that  the  tide  of  slave  population  has  been 
setting  strongly  to  the  West,  and  that  it  is  now  swelled  to  its  greatest  height,  at  the 
very  base  of  the  Blue  Ridge  :  That  in  due  time,  it  will  find  its  level  through  the 
passes  of  that  mountain,  tliere  can  be  httle  reason  to  doubt.    'We  have  seen  by 


282 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


how  much  the  slave  population  exceeds  the  white  population,  in  the  two  Eastern  dis- 
tricts, and  by  how  much  it  tails  short,  in  the  two  Western.  Let  us  now  see  what  has 
been  the  ratio  of  increase,  from  1790,  to  the  present  time.    It  stands  thus  : 

In  the  first  district,  from     1790  to  1800—138  per  cent. 

1800  to  1810—65  1-2  per  cent. 

1810  to  1820—46  per  cent. 

1820  to  1829—28  1-2  per  cent. 
In  the  second  district,  from  1790  to  1800—40  1-2  per  cent. 

1800  to  1810—31  1-4  per  cent. 

1810  to  1820—25  1-2  per  cent. 

182-0  to  1829—12  1-5  per  cent. 
In  the  third  district,  from    1790  to  1800—28  1-2  per  cent. 

1800  to  1810—20  3-4  per  cent. 

1810  to  1820—10  3-4  per  cent. 

1820  to  1829—7  7-10  per  cent. 
In  the  fourth  district,  from  1790  to  1800 — 6  1-4  per  cent. 

1800  to  1810—4  per  cent. 
\  1810  to  1820—1  1-4  per  cent. 

1820  to  1829— loss  of  13-100  of  one  per  cent. 
You  find  then,  that,  while  in  the  tide- water  district  the  slave  population  is  rather 
decreasing,  it  is  increasing-  in  the  middle  district  by  a  much  smaller  ratio  than  in  the 
Valley  and  the  Western  districts.  You  perceive  too,  until  within  the  last  nine  years, 
the  increase  in  the  Valley  and  Western  district  has  been  very  rapid.  A  strong  rea- 
son why,  within  that  time,  the  increase  has  not  been  so  great  in  those  districts,  may 
be  found  in  the  depressed  prices  of  agricultural  products.  For  the  last  ten  or  twelve 
years,  the  products  of  the  farming  districts  have  scarcely  been  of  value  sufficient  to 
justify  their  transportation  to  distant  markets.  In  consequence  of  this,  farmers  of 
the  Valley,  and  no  doubt  of  other  Western  districts,  have  become  graziers,  and  the 
labour  of  slaves  has  been  less  in  demand.  The  price  of  tobacco  has  been  better  sustain- 
ed than  the  price  of  other  agricultural  products — it  better  bears  the  expense  of  trans- 
portation to  market ;  and  this  has  kept  up  the  demand  for  the  labour  of  slaves,  in  the 
planting  districts  of  the  middle  country.  This  too,  is  fostering  the  culture  of  tobacco 
in  some  of  the  Valley  counties,  where  it  is  grown  of  fine  quality,  and  to  much  ad- 
vantage ;  and  will,  no  doubt,  extend  its  culture  very  considerably  in  the  Western  dis- 
tricts. As  the  demand  for  slaves  in  the  Southern  States  of  the  Union  diminishes,  and 
their  laws  restraining  the  importation  of  them,  become  more  rigid — as  the  tobacco 
lands  of  the  middle  district  decrease,  and  the  tobacco  culture  in  the  Western  districts 
is  extended;  and  as  the  products  of  the  farming  districts  shall  become  more  valuable  ; 
the  demand  for  the  labour  of  slaves  will  diminish  in  the  middle  districts,  and  increase 
in  the  Western  ;  the  price  of  tiiem  v/ill  become  lower,  the  Western  man  will  be  more 
able  to  purchase  them,  and  the  Western  country  will  be  sure  to  possess  them,  in  large 
numbers.  In  Rockbridge,  where  the  culture  of  tobacco  has  been  lately  introduced, 
the  slave  population  has  increased  about  33  13  per  cent,  in  the  last  nine  years,  and  in 
Botetourt,  where  the  plant  has  been  longer  and  more  extensively  cultivated, the  slave 
population  has  increased  more  than  an  hundred  per  cent,  in  the  same  time.  These 
two  counties  together,  have  a  white  population  of  20,927,  and  slave  population  of 
7,592.  It  cannot  be  doubted,  that  in  twenty  years,  they  will  be  essentially  slave-hold- 
ing counties  ;  and  their  white  population,  added  to  that  of  the  East,  in  the  year  1850, 
will  cast  the  balance  of  power  decidedly  in  its  favour.  But  many  other  counties  of 
the  West,  and  among  them,  the  rich  and  populous  counties  of  Frederick  and  Jeffer- 
son, under  the  influence  of  the  causes  I  have  referred  to,  must,  in  the  course  of  twen- 
ty years,  have  so  strong  an  interest  in  the  slave  population,  as  to  insure  their  co-ope- 
ration in  its  protection.  Nearly  one-third  of  the  population  of  these  two  counties  is, 
at  this  time,  slaves.  Their  aggregate  white  population  is  upwards  of  27,000 ;  their 
aggregate  slaves,  upwards  of  ll,U00. 

These  are  some  of  the  reasons  which  have  satisfied  my  mind,  that  the  power  of  the 
Government,  under  the  influence  of  the  basis  of  white  population,  will  abide  with 
the  slave-holders. 

But,  suppose  I  should  be  mistaken ;  siippose  the  ratio  of  white  and  slave  popula- 
tion to  continue  as  it  is,  and  that  the  basis  of  white  population  would  tiansfer  the 
power  of  the  Government  to  the  West,  would  you  secure  protection  to  the  interests 
in  the  slave  property,  by  rejecting  this  basis,  and  imposing  on  us  the  compound  basis.'* 
I  think  not. 

If  by  conceding  to  the  Western  people,  a  right  which  has  been  so  long,  and,  as 
they  think,  so  injuriously  withheld  from  them,  by  this  manifestation  of'  generous  con- 
fidence in  them,  by  thus  acknowledging  them  really  as  brethren,  equal  with  you  in 
r^g'hit,  you  could  not  inspire  a  feeling  of  affection  and  sentiment  of  justice,  on  which 
Bonie  reliance  might  be  placed ;  if  you  could  not  trust  to  their  general  though  deep 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONTENTION. 


283 


interest,  in  maintaining  the  rights  of  property,  and  the  peace  and  good  order  of  so- 
ciety ;  if  yoa  could  not  accept  the  justice  of  your  own  Government,  your  own  for- 
bearance to  invade  tlieir  property  for  more  tlian  fifty  years,  as  evidence,  tliat  they  too 
will  govern  justly,  and  will  respect  your  property  ;  if  you  nmst  act  upon  the  distrust, 
which  the  known  frailty  of  human  nature  prompts,  upon  the  apprehension,  that  large 
masses  of  men,  acting  together,  cannot  resist  the  temptation  of  laro-e  masses  of  pro- 
perty, exposed  to  their  power,  then,  there  are  other  considerations  wliich  deserve 
your  most  serious  attention. 

Let  it  be  once  openly  avowed  and  adopted  as  a  principle  of  your  Constitution,  that 
the  price  which  the  Western  people  must  pa}^  for  the  protection  of  your  slaves,  is  the 
surrender  of  their  power  in  the  Government,  and  you  render  that  properlj-  hateful 
to  them  in  the  extreme,  and  hold  out  to  them  the  strongest  of  all  possible  temptations 
to  make  constant  war  upon  it,  to  render  it  of  no  value  to  you,  and  to  induce  you  to 
part  with  it.  A  large  district  of  your  country,  marked  out  by  a  geograpliicjil  line, 
containing  a  large  minority  of  the  freemen  of  the  country,  and  expected  soon  to  con- 
tain the  majority  ;  having  a  large  representation  in  both  branches  of  your  Legisla- 
ture, Vv'-here  its  voice  can  be  coiistantly  heard,  and  its  complaints  will  be  perpetually 
poured  forth  ;  this  district  is  to  be  placed  under  the  ban  of  the  Empire,  and  its  people 
to  be  told,  that  your  slaves  exclude  them  from  the  pale  of  authority.  I  will  not  say, 
you  wiil  madden  them  into  acts  of  violence  or  disloj-alty,  by  such  a  measure — 1  be- 
lieve it  not — the  people  of  the  West,  though  zealous  and  persevering  in  pursuit  of 
their  rights,  are  in  general  an  industrious  and  contented  people,  as  obedient  to  the 
law,  as  prudent  and  as  loyal  as  any  people  under  the  sun.  But  will  you  not  make 
them  zealots  on  that  subject,  on  which  your  right  of  propert}''  depends,  and  Yi  hich  is 
so  intimately  connected  with  your  domestic  peace.''  Will  you  not  drive  them  to  seek 
allies  among  your  own  people,  associates  in  the  measures,  which  are  necessary  to  re- 
move the  obstacle  that  stands  in  their  road  to  power  ? 

Unless  I  am  deceived,  very  grossly  deceived,  Mr.  Chairman,  they  would  find  many 
and  ardent  auxiliaries,  in  the  bosom  of  3'our  ov.-n  society.  How  many  are  there,  who 
owning  none  of  this  propertj^,  and  doomed  to  the  laborious  offices  of  life,  feel  a  sort 
of  degradation  in  being  compelled  to  perform  them  in  common  v.-ith  the  slave,  and  a 
sentiment  of  envy  towards  their  owners.'  Hovv  many  who  professing  conscientious 
scruples,  are  even  now  continually  propagating  doctrines,  which- tend  to  insubordina- 
tion.? Remember  too,  Sir,  that  the  R,ight  of  Suffrage  will  be  extended.  How  many 
of  this  class  of  auxiliaries,  will  be  broiwht  to  the  polls  by  this  extension,  remains  yet 
to  be  known.  But  I  put  it  to  the  sober  judgment  of  the  Eastern  Statesman  to  say, 
whether  he  can  feel  security  against  the  combined  action  of  the  whole  Western  coun- 
try, and  all  the  discontented  of  the  East,  when  you  shall  have  established  the  com- 
pound basis,  and  materially  extended  the  Right  of  Suffrage  ?  Sir,  notiiing  in  my  es- 
timation can  be  more  unwise,  or  threaten  more  serious  mischief,  than  the  united  ope- 
ration of  these  two  causes.  You  cannot  with  safety  extend  the  Right  of  Suffrage 
materially,  and  force  upon  us  the  compound  basis. 

But,  if  the  evil  I  have  hinted  at  should  not  follow,  what  then  ?  Will  the  people  ^ 
of  the  West  sit  down  tamely  under  the  privation  of  even  a  portion  of  the  power 
which  they  now  enjoy.?  Will  the  majority  of  the  freemen  of  the  country,  who 
share  the  political  power,  acquiesce  in  the  rule  of  the  minority,  under  the  persua- 
sion that  while  the  minority  would  have  virtue  and  wisdom  enough  to  protect  the 
property  and  secure  all  the  rights  of  the  majority,  that  majority  could  not  be  trusted 
with  power  over  the  property^of  the  minority  ?  This  is  impossible,  A  Constitution 
founded  upon  such  a  principle  would  not  last  ten  years.  There  would  be  no  rebel- 
lion, no  civil  war,  no  blond-shed.  The  peaceful  remedy  is  in  the  hands  of  the  peo- 
ple, and  they  will  employ  it.  You  do  not  mean  to  disavow  the  doctrine,  that  the 
majority  may  reform  the  Constitution.  You  have  already,  by  an  unanimous  vote, 
sanctioned  this  doctrine  in  agreeing  to  the  resolution,  tliat  the  Bill  of  Rights  required 
no  alteration.  Your  new  Constitution  then  is  to  be  sent  forth,  with  a  proscription 
aofainst  the  majority,  and  with  an  invitation  to  the  majority  to  alter,  reform  or  abolish. 
Will  not  this  invitation  be  most  certainly  accepted  ?  The  qualified  voters,  with  the 
increased  povrer  which  the  extension  of  the  Right  of  Suffi-age  vrill  give  them,  will 
make  themselves  heard  at  the  polls,  and  heard  in  your  halls  of  legislation.  Do  not 
flatter  yourself.  Sir,  that  your  majorities  in  the  Legislature  can  resist  the  petitions  of 
a  dreaded  majority,  earnestly  pressed,  and  long  persevered  in.  Your  new  voters  will 
sympathise  with  them  and  not  with  you — the}" will  owe  their  pov.-er  principally  to  the 
people  of  the  West,  and  they  wiii  not  reo-,nrd  your  power  as  neces.sary  to  their  pro- 
tection. If  your  own  constituents  do  not  take  part  against  you.  nevertlieless,  you 
will  be  compelled  to  yield,  as  the  Legislature  has  heretofore  yielded  to  the  force  of 
public  opinion — and  another  Convention  will  be  called  to  dp  that  which  you  now  re- 
fuse to  do.  The  surrender  of  your  power  may  then  come  too  late,  to  allay  the  an"-  . 
mosities  which  the  protracted  controversy  will  have  inflamed,  heal  dissention,  sootlie 


284 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


wounded  feelinor,  inspire  confidence,  and  cement  the  bond  of  union  among  the  people 
of  the  Commonweal  ill. 

Why  then  will  you  persist  in  contending  for  that  which  it  is  so  hazardous  to  pos- 
sess, so  impossible  to  retain?  Better,  far  better  is  it,  in  my  humble  opinion,  to  turn 
your  attention  to  that  which  is  practicable,  safe,  enduring  and  effectual — to  the  pru- 
dent limitation  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage.  This  is  a  ground  on  which  we  could  meet 
and  confer  together,  I  should  hope,  with  some  prospect  of  settling  at  once  the  basis  of 
political  power,  and  the  mode  of  apporti<>ning  it.  Let  the  qualification-s  of  suffrage 
be  judiciously  defined,  and  the  basis  of  representation  be  the  ratio  of  qualified  voters. 
I  have  shov/n  vou  how  such  a  provision  accords  with  the  principles  of  our  Govern- 
ment, how  mildly  it  would  operate  in  the  distribution  of  power,  how  perfectly  secure 
it  would  leave  our  rigiits  of  property. 

It  is  to  the  qualifications  of  suffrage,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  we  must  look  for  the  es- 
sential character  of  our  Government,  for  the  security  of  all  our  rights,  and  especially 
for  the  protection  of  our  property.  Hold  in  steady  view  the  word  and  the  spirit  of 
the  Bill  of  Rights — admit  to  the  enjoyment  of  political  power,  those,  and  if  possible 
those  only,  who  "  have  sufficient  evidence  of  permanent  common  interest  with,  and 
attachment  to,  the  community"' — and  you  have  the  best  security  that  Vv'e  can  devise 
for  the  protection  of  our  property  and  our  rights — you  have  the  bond  which  gentle- 
men have  demanded,  founded  in  self-interest  and  self-love.  1  am  not  so  visionary 
as  to  suppose,  that  human  v/isdom  can  devise  a  rule  of  suffrage,  v.  hich  would  inclvde 
all,  who  have,  and  exclude  all,  who  have  not,  the  requisite  interest  in  the  communily 
and  attachment  to  it.  But  there  can  be  no  doubt,  by  a  careful  attention  to  the  cir- 
cumstances, which  indicate  pcr7nanmcy  of  interest,  cu'tnrmmity  of  mterest,  aUachment 
to  the  country,  much  might  be  done,  to  exclude  the  unworth}',  and  to  commit  the 
political  power,  to  the  great  body  of  the  people,  who  must  look  to  the  good  govern- 
ment and  prosperity  of  the  country,  for  the  prosperity  and  happiness  of  themselves 
individually,  their  families  and  their  posterity.  Let  your  qualification  of  property  be 
fixed  with  no  view  to  aristocratic  pride  and  distinction  ;  let  it  be  fixed  so  low,  that  the 
industrious  of  all  classes,  professions  and  callings,  may  acquire  it  in  a  few  years  of 
persevering  labour ;  and  so  high  as  to  be  out  of  the  reach  of  the  habitually  idle,  who 
in  all  stations  of  life,  are  habitually  worthless.  Whether  it  be  of  real  or  personal 
property — real  I  should  prefer — let  it  be  certain,  simple,  easy  to  understand,  and  con- 
venient in  practice.  Such  a  safeguard  for  property,  as  this,  Vv'ould  be  permanent;  it 
would  not  array  the  gre.tt  distr  cts  of  your  State  aoainst  each  oilier;  and  could  not 
produce  any  serious  discontent.  W"hat  excluded  class  would  oppose  it Not  our 
slaves — their  masters  will  keep  them  better  employed;  nor  our  children — tiie  disci- 
pline of  the  rod,  will  secure  their  allegiance;  not  our  daughters — Heaven  bless  their 
maidenly  modesty! — they  would  not  for  the  world  be  suspected  of  desiring  power; 
nor  our  wives,  who  would  be  perfectly  contented,  that  their  husbands  should  give 
their  votes  for  them  ;  nor  yet  th^se,  wlio  are  no  longer  wives  ;  for  they  will  have 
been  taught,  in  Heaven's  best  school,  the  vanity  of  human  povv^er,  and  the  necessity 
of  seeking  happiness  in  devotion.  No  other  classes,  but  the  aliens  and  free  coloured, 
are  excluded,  and  from  them,  nobody  has  any  apprehension.  All  besides  who  are 
excluded,  are  individuals  belonging  to  all  classes,  who  are  for  the  time  without  the 
requisite  Qualification.  The  industrious  ycung  man,  whether  a  cultivator  of  the  soil, 
a  merchant  or  mechanic,  whether  lawyer,  doctor  or  divine,  who  is  engaged  in  lad  ing 
the  foundations  of  his  fortune,  and  who  looks  with  confidence,  as  every  industrious 
man  in  this  community  may,  to  the  time  when  he  shall  have  acquired  a  comforta- 
ble subsistence  for  himself  and  his  family,  and  with  it  the  qualification  of  suffrage — 
can  he  now  complain  that  he  must  for  a  few  years  submit  to  that  exclusion  which  has 
been  deemed  necessary  to  secure  him  the  profits  of  his  own  labour,  tiie  protection  of 
the  property  he  is  endeavoring  to  acquire  ?  The  sons  of  freeholders,  who  have  not 
yet  come  to  the  possession  of  the  estates  wliich  their  fathers  have  in  keeping  for 
them,  and  have  earned  none  of  their  own — they  surely  cannot  complain,  that  while 
they  depend  upon  their  fathers  for  property,  they  should  depend  on  them  also  for  its 
government.  Can  the  imprudent  or  the  unfortunate,  who  have  lost  their  property, 
and  with  it  their  right  of  suffrage,  complain  that  tiiey  are  not  permitted  to  participate 
in  the  management  of  public  affairs,  when  they  have  been  so  unsuccessful  in  the 
conduct  of  their  private  estates,  as  to  be  left  without  the  qualification  of  a  voter  ? 
With  still  less  reason,  could  the  idle  man,  whether  young  or  old,  who  had  acquired  no 
property,  and  was  pursuing  no  means  to  acquire  any,  complain  that  he  was  not  per- 
mitted to  share  in  the  government  f)f  that  society,  to  which  he  contributed  nothing 
better  than  the  evil  example  of  his  bad  habits.  It  is  very  manifest,  that  among  all 
these  various  descriptions  of  excluded  persons,  there  could  be  no  bond  of  sympathy, 
no  union  of  action — and  that  from  their  discontents,  if  they  had  no  rallying  point  of 
real  grievance,  no  organized  corps  of  dissatisfied  voters  to  conduct  their  opposition, 
society  would  have  nothing  to  apprehend. 


DEBATES    OF    THE  CONVEN'TIOX. 


285 


There  is  but  a  sino-ie  point  of  view  iu  wiiich  the  connexion  of  the  basis  of  repre- 
sentation witii  the  Rfoht  of  SuiTrncre,  as  I  liare  suggested.  v\-ouId  seem  to  threaten  mis- 
ciiief  If  the  qualified  voters  in  tlie  several  districts  were  made  the  standard  of  their 
power,  the  extension  of  the  Rifiht  of  SuJirage,  as  it  would  probably  vary  the  ratio  of 
quahfied  voters,  might  become  a  question  of  power  between  the  different  districts. _  I 
have  been  fully  aware  of  tliis  consequence,  and  it  induced  me  to  hesitate  in  proposing 
the  connexion.  But  I  have  been  encouraged  to  hope  that  this  very  expedient  may 
be  made  the  means  of  settling  the  question  of  suffrage  here  more  satisfactorily  than 
it  could  otherwise  be  settled.  °  And  if  adjusted  here  to  tlie  satisfaction  of  both  pai'ties, 
I  should  have  no  fears  of  future  consequences.  No  general  discontent  could  possibly 
be  excited  among  the  people  upon  tiiis  subject — at  least  not  for  years  to  come.  The 
influence  of  tlie "extension  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  upon  the  relative  power  of  the 
several  districts,  will  diminish  hereafter,  in  the  exact  proportion,  that  the  slave  popu- 
lation shall  become  more  equally  distributed  through  the  State — and  if  I  am  riglit  in 
my  calculations  upon  this  subject,  tlie  extension  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  as  a  question 
of  relative  power,  will  be  every  day  losing  its  interest.  I  should  hope  then,  Sir.  that 
this  question  would  engage  the  serious  attention  of  gentlemen  on  both  sides. 

Mr.  J.  proceeded  to  discuss  the  subject  of  internal  improvements,  but  being  much 
fatigued,  he  gave  wav  to  a  motion  uf  '3Ir.  Stanard  for  the  Committee  to  rise,  (iNir.  J. 
statmg  that  he  should  scarcely  expect  to  detain  the  Committee  more  than  fiiieea 
minutes  on  the  following  day.) 

The  Committee  rose,  and  rmmediately  on  "tlr.  Leigh's  mcticn,  the  Convention  ad- 
journed. 


FRIDAY,  Xovzr.iBER  13,  1S.29. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  tlie  Rev.  Mr. 
Hoorner  of  the  Catholic  Church. 

Having  again  resolved  itself  into  a  Commitcee  of  the  hole,  Mr.  Powell  in  the 
Chair, 

Mr.  JoHXsox  resumed  and  concluded  Iiis  speech  in  favor  of  the  resolution  reported 
by  the  Legislative  Committee,  and  in  opposition  to  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Green, 
proposing  a  mixed  basis  of  representation.    He  said,  that 

Another  subject,  on  which  gentlemen  express  great  appreliensions  of  dnnger,  from 
transferrin  or  the  power  of  the  Government  to  the  majority,  is  that  of  internal  nnprove- 
ments.  They  fear  that  expensive  schemes  of  improvement  will  be  adopted,  in 
wliich  the  Eastern  districts  have  little,  if  any  interest;  and  which,  if  successful,  will 
be  principally  beneficial  to  the  West,  v/hile  the  expense  will  be  chiefly  defrayed  from 
taxes  levied  in  the  East. 

In  considering  this  question,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  do  n;',t  feel  myself  at  all  called  upon 
to  vindicate  the  Western  people  from  any  iu^putation  upon  their  motives  or  character. 
If  an}'  such  had  been  made,  it  would  have  been  so  enta-ely  gratuitous,  tliat  it  could 
not  have  required  an  answer.  But  none  such  has  been  made.  Gentlemen  have  ex- 
plicitly disclaimed  all  personal  distrust  of  the  Western  people — all  imputa.tion  upon 
them.  They  have  reasoned  from  the  known  character  of  man.  from  tlie  ordinary 
motives  and  influences  of  human  action.  The  correctness  of  their  reasoning  alone 
I  controvert ;  its  candor  and  liberality  I  cheerfully  admit.  I  do  not  believe  that  the 
danger  apprehended  exists,  nor  do  I  tliink  that  if  it  did,  it  would  be  avoided  by  the 
means  proposed. 

I  do  not  hesitate,  in  the  outset,  to  avow  myself  a  decided  friend  of  the  policy  of 
internal  improvement;  not.  Sir.  a  system  of  internal  improvement  forced  upon  us  by 
the  Government  of  the  United  States,  without  our  consent,  and  without  our  authority — 
a  system  less  suited  perhaps  f  )r  making  roads  and  canals,  tiian  for  making  Presidents 
and  Secretaries — less  used  for  tlie  purpose  of  facilitating  transportation  from  one  part 
of  the  country  to  another,  than  for  tlie  purpose  of  transferring  popularity  from  one 
set  of  politicians  to  another.  I  advocate  the  policy  of  internal  improvement  conducted 
by  our  ovrn  internal  Government,  for  the  bojia  fide  purpose  of  lessening  the  expense 
of  transportation,  facilitating  the  intercourse  between  distant  places,  increasing  the 
value  of  our  property,  and  with  it  the  wealth  and  resources  of  the  State.  I  am  no. 
friend  of  any  system  conducted,  no  matter  by  what  authority,  which  robs  one  man's 
purse  to  improve  another  man's  land.  I  think  that  no  im])rovement  ouo'lit  ever  to  be 
undertaken,  unless  the  local  districts  immediately  benefitted  b}^  it  will  bear  a  tax,  in 
the  form  of  tolls  or  otherwise,  adequate  at  least  to  pay  a  reasonable  interest  upon  the 
money  expended  in  its  execution  ;  and  that  Government  ouo'ht  never  to  advance  its 
raone}^  or  credit  for  the  purpose  of  such  improvement,  without  the  best  assurances 
that  such  return  can  be  made,  and  exacting  an  adequate  toll  on  ti-ansportation, 


286 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION, 


or  tax  upon  the  district.  With  these  limitations,  which,  cautiously  observed,  would 
guard  every  part  of  the  State  from  unjust  burthens,  I  think  that  the  best  interests  of 
the  country  require  the  patronage  of  the  Government,  in  the  improvement  of  its 
roads  and  rivers. 

The  policy  of  internal  improvement,  Mr.  Chairman,  is  not  an  invention  of  the 
West  for  enriching  themselves,  and  impoverishing-  their  neighbours.  It  is  the  policy 
of  the  Statesman  and  the  Patriot.  It  was  reconmiended  to  us  in  Virginia,  by  the  fa- 
ther of  his  country;  and  has  found  its  most  zealous  and  distinguished  advocates,  in 
the  Eastern  districts.  When  adverse  circumstances  had  thrown  it  into  some  discredit, 
darkened  its  prospects,  and  damped  the  spirits  of  its  friends — who,  I  ask,  were  fore- 
most in  their  efforts,  to  vindicate  its  character  and  re-animate  its  hopes Let  the 
rneeting  at  Charlottesville  during  the  past  year  answer  this  question — a  meeting  in- 
vited by  a  voice  from  the  lowlands,  attended  by  a  few  members  from  the  West,  and 
many  from  the  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  whose  presiding  officer  was  the  distinguished 
member  of  this  Convention  from  the  county  of  Orange,  once  the  President  of  the 
United  States,  and  among  whose  most  active  members  were  the  President  of  this 
Convention,  the  Chief  Justice  of  the  United  States,  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield, 
and  other  very  distinguished  Eastern  men,  now  members  of  this  Convention. 

Let  us  look  on  the  map  of  the  State  and  see  what  part  of  the  country  is  directly 
interested  in  the  policy  of  internal  improvement.  Its  narrowest  limits  will  be  found 
prescribed,  by  the  Potomac  on  the  North,  the  Ohio  on  the  West,  the  line  of  North 
Carolina  on  the  South,  and  the  head  of  tide-water  on  the  East.  Add  to  this  exten- 
sive district  the  towns  of  Norfolk,  Petersburg,  Richmond,  Fredericksburg  and  Alex- 
andria, with  the  counties  adjoining  them,  in  which  the  direct  interest  is  quite  as  ma- 
nifest as  in  any  other  part  of  the  State,  and  you  leave  but  a  very  small  district,  not 
directly  interested  in  this  subject.  But  in  truth.  Sir,  the  interest  of  internal  im- 
provement pervades  the  whole  Commonwealth.  The  tide-water  country,  which  re- 
quires no  improvement  in  its  roads  and  rivers,  has  an  important  interest  in  the  im- 
provement of  its  markets.  Whatever  will  increase  the  population,  the  wealth,  the 
mercantile  capital  of  their  m.arket  towns,  must  enhance  the  value  of  every  acre  of 
their  lands.  And  permit  me  to  suggest,  that  under  a  prudent  system  of  internal  im- 
provement, patronised  by  the  Government,  the  benefits  to  the  tide-water  country, 
though  they  might  not  be  so  great,  would  be  more  certain,  and  the  risk  of  loss  less, 
than  to  the  immediate  district  in  which  the  improvement  might  be  made.  Suppose, 
for  example,  the  Government  to  borrow  the  money  necessary  for  completing  the 
James  river  improvement,  and  to  provide  by  law  for  a  tax  on  the  land,  or  a  toll  on 
tile  products  of  the  James  river  district  to  meet  the  interest  on  the  loan — in  this 
case,  the  whole  risk  incurred  by  the  tide-water  country  is,  that  the  means  employed 
to  pay  the  interest  on  the  loan  may  not  be  effectual — and  this  risk  they  encounter, 
in  common  with  the  James  river  district  and  every  other  part  of  the  State.  If  the 
improvement  should  succeed,  that  would  secure  the  means  of  paying  the  interest  on 
the  loan,  and  lay  a  sure  foundation  fi)r  the  prosperity  of  their  principal  market  town; 
and  thus,  without  paying  one  dollar  for  it,  the  tide-water  country  connected  with 
Richmond  would  enjoy  the  benefit  of  an  improved  market. 

And  what  would  the  James  River  district  enjoy  ?  The  benefit  of  an  improved 
market,  it  is  true,  and  of  improved  transportation — but  subject  to  the  tax  necessa- 
i'y  to  pay  the  interest  on  the  loan.  It  would  depend  entirely  upon  the  compara- 
tive value  of  this  tax,  and  of  these  benefits,  whether  the  James  River  interest  would 
be  promoted  or  injured,  by  the  successful  improvement.  If  the  tax  were  equivalent 
to  the  diminution  of  freight  resulting  from  the  improvement,  then  the  James  River  in- 
terest would  have  gained  nothing ;  if  more  than  equivalent,  it  would  be  injured  ;  and  it 
would  be  benefitted  only  in  the  event,  that  the  saving  of  freight  would  be  more  than 
equivalent  to  the  tax  imposed.  This  interest  then  w^ould  incur  the  double  risk  of 
loss — first,  by  the  failure  of  the  improvement ;  secondly,  by  having  to  pay  for  it  more 
than  it  was  worth.  Apply  this  illustration  to  all  our  navigable  streams  which  require 
improvement,  to  the  towns  connected  with  them,  and  the  country  interested  in  their 
markets,  and  you  will  perceive  how  essentially  the  interest  in  a  well-conducted  system 
of  internal  improvement,  is  an  interest  of  the  Commonwealth,  and  how  unwise  it 
would  be  to  regard  it  ar,  a  partial  interest,  and  to  excite  local  jealousies  concerning  it. 
Considering  it  in  this  light  too,  you  will  acknowledge  the  injustice  of  regarding  it  as 
the  means  of  taxing  one  part  of  the  Commonwealth  for  the  benefit  of  the  other.  In- 
deed, the  very  moment  you  adopt  the  principle  of  making  the  local  districts  pay  the 
interest  upon  the  expenditure,  and  hold  their  lands  mortgaged  for  the  payment,  you 
secure  from  those  districts  the  utmost  practicable  caution  in  all  their  plans  of  im- 
provement ;  you  make  them  as  careful  in  accepting  loans,  as  the  State  should  be  in 
granting  them,  and  you  give  to  the  agency  of  the  Government  its  true  paternal  cha- 
racter, employed  in  assisting  the  prudent  and  solvent  members  of  its  family  in  laying 
the  foundations  of  their  fortune. 


DEBATES    OF  THE 


COXVEXTION. 


287 


But  it  is  not  to  such  a  svstem  that  the  objections  of  gentlemen  on  the  other  side 
apnly  Most  of  them.  I  douot  not.  would  be  its  patrons.  They  fear  the  operations  of 
a  different  system,  one  which,  whatever  might  be  its  object,  would  result  m  throwmg 
the  expenses  of  every  great  improvement  upon  the  State  at  large,  while  its  profits 
would  be  partially  enjoyed.  Let  us  then  examine  whether  this  would  be  the  proba- 
ble consequence' of  adopting  the  basis  of  white  population,  and  whether  it  would  be 
avoided  by  the  compound  basis.  ^  ,      ,  .  .        ,  . 

When  dano-er  is  apprehended  from  the  prevalence  of  local  interests  against  the  in- 
terests of  the^  State,  the  most  obvious  inquiry  is,  whether  any  one  local  interest,  or 
any  combination  of  them,  can  probably  command  the  power  of  the  Government. 
Lookino-  to  the  divisions  of  our  State,  with  reference  to  the  various  interests  m  the 
subject °of  internal  improvement,  you  will  find  the  general  interest  guarded  against 
the  local  power,  by  more  natural  raniparts,  than  were  ever  created  upon  the  face  of  any 
country  on  earth,  capable  of  half  the  improvement  to  which  ours  so  strongly  invites. 
It  is  this  very  capacity  for  improvement,  the  numerous  objects  which  so  strongly  so- 
licit it,  that  constitute  the  real  difficulty  in  our  system— and  present  almost  an  insu- 
perable barrier  to  any  improvement  at  all. 

The  country  East  of  the  Alleghany,  and  above  tide-water,  is  divided  into  three 
great  interests,  the  Potomac,  the  James "^River,  and  the  Roanoke,  and  two  subordinate; 
those  of  the  Rappahannock  and  Appomattox,  not  to  mention  the  yet  smaller  interest 
of  the  Paraunkey.  The  trans- Alleghany  interest  might  be  associated  in  part  with 
the  three  oreater  interests  in  plans  of  very  extensive  improvement,  but  as  to  all  minor 
objects  would  be  sub-divided,  with  reference  to  its  own  navigable  streams.  An  in- 
spection of  the  map  and  the  tables  of  population  will  show  you,  that  the  whole  local 
iiaterest,  Eastern  and  Western,  attached  e:ther  to  the  Po-.om?.c,  the  James,  or  the  Roan- 
oke, upon  any  plan  of  improvement,  however  magnificent,  will  embrace  less  than 
one-third  of  the  white  population  of  the  State — and  so  it  must  be  forever.  Neither, 
therefore,  alone,  could  command  the  povN'er  of  the  Government— each  would  guard 
the  Commonwealth  against  any  improvident  sclieme  which  the  other  should  espouse. 
It  must  then  be  from  a  combiuation  of  diflerent  interests,  that  any  danger  would  be 
apprehended.    Is  such  a  combination  probable  ? 

That  which  would  be  most  natural,  perhaps,  aa'ouM  be  between  the  James  and  the 
Roanoke,  because  their  principal  market  towns,  Norfolk  and  RicJnnond,  have  com- 
mercial connexions,  which  might  be  advantageously  extended.  But  such  a  combi- 
nation is  feared  by  nobody  ;  it  is  in  no  wise  probable,  and  if  formed,  its  local  interests 
would  not  embrace  a  majority.  That  which  seems  to  be  apprehended,  and  which  is 
least  improbable,  is  a  combination  between  the  James  and  Potomac,  Is  not  tliis  ap- 
prehension unfounded  .' 

It  ought  to  be  remembered,  that  one  of  the  most  interesting  objects  of  an  enlarged 
plan  of  improvement  connecting  the  Eastern  with  the  Western  waters,  is  the  "West- 
ern trade  ;  that,  in  this  object,  the  Potomac  and  the  James  would  be  rivals — and  there- 
fore, that  combination  between  them  would  be  less  probable. 

The  vast  expense  of  the  two  improvements,  which  should  connect  the  James  and 
Potomac,  with  the  Western  waters,  would  present  another  serious  obstacle  to  the 
combination — an  obstacle,  which  the  known  reluctance  of  the  people  of  Virginia,  to 
raise  the  taxes,  or  incur  debt,  would  render  almost  insuperable.  But  suppose  these 
obstacles  removed,  suppose  the  local  interests  of  James  River  and  Potomac  prepared 
to  lay  down  their  rivalry  and  at  every  expense  to  seek  the  attainment  of  a  favorite 
object,  how  then  will  stand  the  question  of  power  ? 

Upon  the  basis  of  white  population,  the  V/estern  vote  is  estimated  at  fiftj'-eight. 
But  of  the  Western  country,  the  counties  of  Grayson,  jNIontgomery,  Wythe,  Wash- 
ington, Scott,  Lee,  Russell,  Tazewell,  Logan,  and  Cabell,  belong  neither  to  the  James 
Pviver  nor  the  Potomac  interests.  Their  population  entitles  them  to  twelve  votes, 
which  must  be  deducted  from  the  fifty-six,  leaving  forty-four.  To  this  add  the  vote  of 
those  counties  on  this  side  of  the  mountain  which  have  horetofore  espoused  either  the 
James  River  or  the  Potomac  interest — Loudoun,  Fairfax,  Albemarle,  Amherst,  Nel- 
son, Fluvanna,  Goochland,  Bedford,  and  Campbell;  also  the  vote  of  the  city  of  Rich- 
mond, in  all  thirteen,  and  you  give  to  the  combination  the  power  of  fifty-seven 
against  sixty'three.  It  must  then  seek  other  alliances  to  be  successful.  Where  will 
it  find  tliem.^  Will  the  South-Western  counties  that  I  have  enumerated  unite  with 
them  ? 

That  bond  of  sympathy  originating  in  a  common  feeling  of  common  injury,  which 
has  heretofore  given  so  much  power  to  the  Western  vote,  may  unite  them,  unless  you 
dissolve  it,  by  adopting  the  basis  of  white  population  and  causing  everv  local  interest 
to  sympathise  only  with  the  interests  of  the  Commonwealth.  Do  this,  and  there 
will  be  no  better  reason,  why  the  South-Western  counties  should  unite  themselves 
with  the  James  and  Potomac,  than  there  would  be  for  such  a  union  of  the  Roanoke 
counties,  below  the  mountain. 


288 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Will  the  Appomattox  or  Rappahannock  interests  unite  ?  This  could  only  be  on 
terms  which  would  promise  them  the  achievement  of  their  objects  of  improvement; 
terms,  whicli  would  sv/ell  the  whole  expenses  still  higher,  and  multiply  the  difficul- 
ties of  success.  And  if  this  object  is  to  be  obtained,  only  by  combination  of  this 
sort,  it  will  be  easy  to  show  that  the  compound  basis  would  be  no  security  against 
them. 

The  compound  basis,  if  any  thing  could,  would  carry  the  whole  Western  vote,  in 
unbroken  phalanx,  upon  this  subject.  I  have  elsewhere,  Mr.  Chairman,  referred  to 
the  well  known  influence  of  this  vote  in  the  Legislature  of  Virginia  ;  and  this  re- 
ference has  been  treated  here  as  a  threat  used  to  influence  the  proceedings  of  this 
Convention.  Never  was  the  meaning  of  any  one  more  entirely  misconceived,  if  it 
has  been  thought  for  a  moment,  that  I  referred  to  the  influence  of  the  back-woods 
vote,  with  any  the  remotest  intention  of  holding  it  in  terrorem  over  the  members  of 
this  Convention.  Sir,  T  mentioned  it,  with  far  different  motives — and  it  is  wonder- 
ful that  they  should  not  have  been  understood.  I  mentioned  it  as  an  evil,  which  it 
was  desirable  to  remedy — as  the  natural  eff*ect  of  that  sense  of  injustice,  which  the 
Western  people  had  so  long  felt,  as  a  reason  for  believing,  that  an  attempt  to  deprive 
them  of  power,  by  denying  them  their  just  share  in  the  representation,  would -on 
many  occasions  defeat  its  own  object,  as  it  might  give  more  power  to  their  concert 
than  you  had  taken  from  their  numbers.  If  1  had  believed  that  there  was  a  single 
memxber  of  the  Convention,  capable  of  being  influenced  by  such  an  appeal  to  his 
fears,  I  would  have  disdained  to  address  myself  to  him.  But,  1  repeat,  Sir,  that  if 
there  is  any  thing,  which  could  unite  the  whole  Western  vote,  in  favor  of  the  com- 
bined scheme  of  improveinent,  whicli  we  are  now  considering,  it  would  be  your  com- 
pound basis. 

Suppose  tiiera  tlius  united — the  Western  vote  upon  the  compound  basis,  is  forty- 
three — the  vote  of  the  nine  Potomac  and  James  River  counties,  on  this  side  of  the 
mountain,  would  be  sixteen — that  of  the  city  of  Richmond,  nearly  three — making  in 
the  whole  sixty-two  votes,  a  small  majority.  If  the  ten  South-Western  counties,  or 
any  of  them  siiould  not  unite,  ihe  combination  must  only  look  for  an  equivalent,  in  an 
alliance  with  the  Rappahannock  or  Appomattox.  The  whole  force  of  the  ten  South- 
Western  counties  upon  the  compound  basis  is  but  eight  votes — whicli  subtracted, 
would  leave  the  strength  of  the  James  River,  and  Potomac  interest  fifty-four  votes — 
and  leave  them  to  seek  seven  allies  from  the  other  districts. 

These  views  of  the  subject  serve  to  show  you,  that  upon  either  basis,  the  State  is 
perfectly  safe  from  the  domination  of  any  one  great  local  interest — that  upon  neither 
is  it  safe  from  combinations  of  them,  if  such  combinations  be  practicable  at  all — that 
in  this  respect,  if  there  be  any  difference  between  the  two,  it  can  only  be,  that  on  the 
compound  basis  the  cornbinHlion  required  may  be  a  little  ra.ore  extensive,  and,  there- 
fore, a  little  more  mischievous  iu  its  consequences.  But.  Sir,  when  we  ascertain  that 
the  great  body  of  the  State  above  and  below  the  mountain  is  directly  interested  in 
its  internal  improvement,  of  what  great  consequence  is  it  to  calculate  the  probability 
of  combinations  The  policy  must  and  will  be  cherished,  and  whenever  plans  are 
presented,  which  recommend  themselves  to  public  approbation,  by  their  apparent 
practicability  and  usefulness,  they  will  be  adopted.  Gentlemen  have  supposed,  that, 
as  the  more  expensive  improvements  were  best  suited  to  the  Western  interests — as 
the  estates  of  the  Western  people  were  to  be  most  improved  by  them,  and  as  they 
coniributed  the  smallest  proportion  of  the  taxes,  which  might  be  necessary  to  defray 
the  expense — they  would  be  less  careful  in  counting  the  evils  and  more  disposed  to 
encourage  extravagant  and  ruinous  projects. 

Without  stopping  to  enquire  whether  the  Western  people  have  most  interest,  in  the 
more  expensive  improvements.  I  am  content  to  have  shown  you  that  the  Valley  peo- 
ple at  least  contribute  man  for  man,  nearly  as  much  tax  as  the  Eastern  people — that 
the  whole  West,  v/lien  the  inequalities  of  the  last  assessment  shall  have  been  correct- 
ed, will  contribute  fully  in  proportion  to  their  ability  to  pay — that  a  man  of  small  pro- 
perty, parts  with  a  tythe  of  his  profits,  with  as  much  caution  and  reluctance  as  the 
man  of  large  property,  and  that  the  local  tax,  in  the  form  of  tolls  or  otherwise,  which 
the  local  district  must  pay  for  every  improvement  will  at  once  secure  a  rigid  attention 
to  its  economy  and  usefulness,  and  guard  the  public  interest.  My  purpose  in  advert- 
ing to  the  argument,  now,  is  to  show  the  consequence  to  which  it  leads.  Observe, 
the  argument  1s,  that  the  Western  people  v/ill  advocate  improvident  expenditures  of 
public°money,  in  the  improvement  of  their  estates,  because  they  contribute  unequally 
to  the  pubhc  treasury— to  control  Vv^hich,  power  should  be  given  to  the  Eastern  people, 
by  givino-  them  representation  in  proportion  to  their  taxes  and  numbers  combined. 
Now,  it  is  obvious,  that  if  the  money  is  to  be  expended,  in  the  improvement  of  West- 
ern estates,  the  inequality  of  contributions  cannot  be  the  only  or  the  governing  mo- 
tive with  Western  men,  looking  to  their  interest,  for  advocating  the  expenditure. 
Suppose  the  contributions  equal,  suppose  the  Western  man  to  pay  doflar  for  dollar 
with  the  Eastern  man,  and  their  joint  contributions  to  be  applied  to  the  improvement 


DEBATES    OF    THE  COXTENTION. 


2S9 


of  ■western  estates — would  not  the  expenditure  still  be  an  object  of  desire  to  Western 
cupidity  .'  How  much  dilierence  would  it  make  in  the  conduct  of  an  interested  man 
whether,  for  the  improvement  of  his  own  property,  he  was  voting  half  a  dollar  of  his 
own  money  with  a  dollar  of  yours,  or  one  dollar  of  each  r  You  would  have  as  little 
confidence  in  him.  in  the  one  case  as  in  the  other.  If  it  be  true  then  that  the  "West- 
ern people  are  interested  in  improvements  that  do  not  interest  the  East — and  that 
they  would  be  teinpted  by  selfish  considerations  to  expend  the  public  money  in  those 
improvements,  witnout  adequate  indemnity,  then  it  is  manifest,  that  no  safe-guard 
would  be  found  for  the  interests  of  the  East,  in  the  circumstance  that  the  West  paid 
an  equal  proportion  of  tiie  public  taxes.  In  such  a  state  of  things  some  otlier  argu- 
ment must  be  found,  and  doubtless  would  be  found,  to  justify  the  refusal  of  power  to 
the  West.  We  should  be  told  then  as  we  are  told  now,  that  to  secure  the  property 
of  the  East  from  the  power  of  the  West,  the  Government  must  remain  in  the  hands 
of  the  Eastern  people  ;  and  some  new  basis  of  representation  would  be  devised  to  ef- 
fect it.  Would  not  this  lead  to  the  conclusion,  that  the  tide-water  country,  as  least  of 
all  interested  in  intern  il  improvements,  as  the  most  impartial  arbiter  between  the  va- 
rious local  interests,  is  the  only  proper  depository  of  the  power  of  this  Govern- 
ment 1 

Before  I  take  leave  of  the  subject  of  internal  improvements,  allow  me  a  brief  ex- 
planation relative  to  one,  which  seems  to  have  been  n:iuch  misunderstood  here.  I  al- 
lude to  the  James  River  improvement — which  has  been  treated  in  a  manner  calcula- 
ted to  cast  imputation  on  its  friends,  and  throw  discredit  on  the  system. 

In  the  year  17S4  a  private  company  was  incorporated,  for  tlie  improvement  of  the 
naviiration  of  this  river,  and  fixed  tolls  on  transportation  allowed  them.  They  made 
the  contemplated  improvement,  and  had  been  for  many  years  in  the  enjoyment  of 
very  large  profits  upon  their  stock.  3Iuch  complaint,  however,  was  made  aofainst 
them,  for  imputed  neglect  of  duty  and  violation  of  their  charter.  These  complaints 
were  most  earnestly  and  perseveringly  m-ged  from  the  Soutli  side  of  the  river,  and 
the  LeofislaLure  was  repeatedly  pressed  to  charter  another  cempany  with  privileges 
incompatible  with  those  of  the  James  River  company — and  to  declare  its  charter  for- 
feited and  void.  These  measures  resulted  in  a  resolution  of  the  General  Assembly, 
directing  a  prosecution  in  the  General  Court,  to  ascertain  whether  the  charter  was 
forfeited.  Pending  this  prosecution,  the  Legislature,  by  a  compact  with  the  company, 
assumed  the  whole  interest,  and  entire  control  of  the  subject,  and  passed  a  law  for 
eifecting  an  improvement  deejiied  of  great  importance  to  the  Commonwealth,  by  a 
continued  Canal  from  Richmond  to  the  mouth  of  Dunlap"s  Creek  ;  a  turnpike  road 
from  thence  to  the  Great  Falls  of  Kanawha,  and  removing  the  obstructions  to  the  na- 
vigation of  that  river,  from  thence  to  the  Ohio. 

This  law  provided  for  the  assessment  of  tolls  upon  the  transportation  for  the  purpose 
of  indemnifying  the  Government  for  the  expenses  of  the  improvement ;  and  in  order 
to  give  assurance  to  the  local  interest  that  it  would  not  be  prematurely  or  unjustly 
burthened,  a  pledge  was  given  in  the  law  itself,  that  the  additional  tolls  imposed 
should  not  exceed  one-thircTof  the  saving  in  the  price  of  transportation,  effected  by 
the  improvement.  Great  pains  had  been  talien  by  repeated  surveys  and  reports  of 
commissioners  and  engineers,  to  ascertain  the  probable  expense  and  value  of  the  im- 
provement; and  some  confidence  was  entertained  in  the  opinion  that  it  was  practica- 
ble, at  an  expense  not  burthensome  to  the  State  ;  that  its  consequences  would  be  very 
beneficial ;  and  the  reduction  of  freight  so  ^reat  as  to  justify  a  toll  wliich  would  re-pay 
the  interest  of  the  money  expended,  and  not  exceed  one-third  of  tlie  savintr  in  the 
price  of  transportation.  Nevertheless,  the  Legislature,  with  wise  precaution,  so  laid 
out  the  whole  into  convenient  sections,  as  to  give  themselves  the  benefit  of  actual 
experience  in  the  progress  of  the  work,  and  to  enable  tliem,  if  they  thought  fit.  to 
arrest  it  at  such  points,  as  falling  far  short  of  the  v.-jiole  plan,  would  have  achieved  ob- 
jects valuable  in  themselves,  and  promising  a  reasonable  profit  upon  the  expenditure. 
The  first  section  was  the  canal  from  Richmond  to  a  convenient  point  on  the  river, 
beyond  the  limit  of  the  rich  mines  of  coal  which  he  in  the  vicinity  ;  the  second,  tlie 
turnpike  road  ;  and  the  third,  the  improvement  of  the  navigation  of  the  Kanawha. 
The  tolls  upon  coal  were  expected  to  indemnify  the  expenses  of  the  first;  the  tolls 
upon  the  road,  the  second  ;  the  tolls  on  the  valuable  salt  trade  then  growing  up  on 
the  Kanawha,  were  relied  on  to  indemnify  tlie  expenses  of  the  third  ;  and  it  was  be- 
lieved, that  if  experience  should  forbid  the  further  prosecution  of  the  improvement, 
these  three  sections  would  be  permanently  useful.  They  were  therefore  immediately 
provided  for,  and  in  the  course  of  a  few  years  completed.  The  mountain  section — 
the  canal  through  the  Blue  Ridge,  was  the  result  of  subsequent  leorislation.  When 
the  three  first  sections  had  been  finished,  the  expenses  of  tlie  canal  had  so  far  ex- 
ceeded the  estimates,  that  the  most  zealous  friends  of  the  improvement,  doubted  the 
propriety  of  prosecuting  the  whole  plan  to  its  completion.  It  was  in  this  state  of 
things  that  the  additional  toll  on  tobacco  was  recommended  to  the  Le£:islature  bv  the 
Board  of  Public  Works,  and  was  advocated  on  two  o-rounds : — first,  that  the  interest 


290 


DEBx\TES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


of  the  tobacco-planters  would  well  justify  this  offering,  which,  by  increasing  the  reve- 
nue of  the  company,  would  restore  confidence,  and  might  ultimately  secure  success 
to  the  improvement  in  which  they  were  deeply  interested  ;  and  secondly,  that  justice 
required  it,  inasmuch  as  the  toll  on  tobacco  had  been  originally  too  low,  in  comparison 
with  the  toll  on  flour  and  other  products.  A  bill  passed  the  House  of  Delegates,  im- 
posing this  additional  tax  ;  and  in  the  Senate,  of  which  I  was  then  a  member,  repre- 
senting a  farming  and  not  a  planting  district,  I  united  with  the  most  decided  friends 
of  the  James  lliver  improvement,  in  the  tobacco  districts  and  elsewhere,  in  a  zealous 
opposition  to  the  law,  insisting  that  it  would  be  a  breach  of  faith  ;  that  it  was  wrong 
in  itself,  and  would  alienate  from  the  improvement  the  affections  of  some  of  its  most 
constant  friends.  The  bill,  however,  was  carried,  by  the  vote  of  the  East,  combined 
with  the  enemies  of  the  improvement  every  where,  and  with  a  few  Western  mem- 
bers, who  were,  or  had  been  friendly  to  it.  It  is  not  just,  therefore,  to  charge  this 
law  to  the  bad  faith  of  the  West.  1  charge  it  not  to  bad  faith  or  improper  motives 
any  where.  Gentlemen,  no  doubt,  acted  as  they  thought  was  right: — but  the  law  is 
unquestionably  to  be  charged  to  the  vote  of  those  in  general,  who  were  unfriendly  to 
the  James  River  improvement.  I  have  but  one  v/ord  more  to  say  in  relation  to  this 
improvement — and  that  is,  that  notwithstanding  the  bad  economy  with  which  the 
work  has  been  done,  it  having  cost  at  least  one  hundred  percent,  more  than  we  now 
tliink  it  ought  to  have  cost,  yet  the  income  from  the  tolls  furnishes  a  reasonable  profit 
upon  the  whole  amount  expended  : — and  that  the  freight  upon  transportation,  from 
the  district  at  the  head  of  the  first  section,  which  can  avail  itself  of  the  full  benefit  of 
tliat  improvement,  has  been  reduced  one  half. 

I  thought  this  explanation  called  for,  by  the  remarks  of  the  gentleman  from  Fau- 
quier, (Mr.  Scott)  and  others,  and  hope  that  it  may  remove  some  prejudices  and  quiet 
some  fears. 

I  learn,  Mr.  Chairman ,  that  other  fears  are  indulged  by  the  gentlemen  of  the  East, 
from  the  transfer  of  power  to  the  West  f-'  They  fear  not  only  that  the  estates  of  the 
West  are  to  be  improved,  but  that  the  poor  of  the  West  are  to  be  educated,  at  the  ex- 
pense of  the  East.  It  is  most  deeply  to  be  regretted,  that  there  is  any  thing  in  the 
local  situation  of  a  particular  property  in  Vir^naiia,  which  gives  rise  to  so  many  and 
such  apprehensi;ms.  Interests  the  most  general  and  most  important;  those  most  in- 
timately connected  with  the  prosperity  and  happiness  of  the  whole  people  ;  the  gene- 
ral protection  of  property,  the  improvement  of  all  our  roads  and  rivers,  the  education 
of  our  people,  and  the  organization  of  our  Government;  all,  by  the  malign  influence 
of  this  unhappy  cause,  are  made  the  subject  of  local  jealousies,  and  party  contests. 
What  is  the  foundation.  Sir,  of  this  new  alarm For  nearly  fifty  years,  we  have  had, 
from  time  to.  time,  various  plans  of  public  education,  submitted  to  us,  and  discussed 
in  the  Legislature  and  before  the  p>";ople.  Some  of  them,  no  doubt,  have  been  wild 
and  visionary  ;  but,  I  believe,  not  one  of  them  has  ever  been  so  extravagant,  as  to 
propose  a  general  tax  for  the  education  of  the  poor.  The  farthest  that  any  one  of 
them  has  gone,  has  been  to  propose,  that  the  school  districts  should  be  taxed,  in  aid 
of  the  contributions  from  the  Literary  Fund,  for  the  education  of  the  poor  of  those 
districts  respectively.  But,  what  warrant  is  there  for  supposing,  that  the  education  of 
the  poor  from  the  public  purse,  is  a  Western  interest;  that  their  poor  are  more  nume- 
rous or  less  educated  than  yours There  is  none  ;  and  it  ought  to  be  remembered, 
that  the  most  extensive  schemes  of  public  education,  if  not  all,  that  ever  have  been 
submitted  for  the  adoption  of  this  State,  have  proceeded  from  Eastern  politicians. 

But,  suppose  that  the  danger  which  has  been  apprehended  to  the  security  of  pro- 
perty, the  danger  of  an  unjust  levy  and  application  of  the  public  taxes,  will  really  at- 
tend the  unqualified  transfer  of  pov/er ;  is  the  appropriate  remedy  to  be  found  in  re- 
taining that  poAver  in  the  hands  of  the  minority      I  think  not. 

Appeal,  if  you  please,  to  that  cautionary  doctrine  of  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier, 
which  teaches  that  the  greatest  merit  of  a  Constitution,  is  in  giving  to  Government 
those  powers  only  which  are  essential  to  the  general  welfare,  and  apply  the  remedies 
which  it  suggests. 

If  you  think  that  your  slaves  will  be  unjustly  taxed,  prescribe  in  the  Constitution  a 
proper  limit  upon  the  legislative  power :  fix  the  ratio  between  the  tax  on  slaves  and 
real  estate,  according  to  some  just  standard  ;  declare  that  the  tax  shall  be  ad  valorem, 
and  equal  on  both,  and  that  the  one  shall  never  be  taxed  without  the  other.  In  this, 
I  will  cheerfully  co-operate  with  you,  satisfied  that  such  a  provision  would  be  just  and 
effectual.  Any  law  imposing  a  tax  in  violation  of  it,  being  forbidden,  by  the  Consti- 
tution, would  be  void  ;  every  one  interested,  niight  resist  the  payment  of  the  tax,  and 
he  would  be  sustained  by  an  independent  judiciary. 

If  you  think  there  is  real  danger,  that  the  public  revenue  will  be  unjustly  applied 
to  partial  objects  of  internal  improvement ;  if  you  really  think  that  the  spirit  of  inter- 
nal improvement  requires  rather  to  be  checked  than  encouraged,  limit  the  powers  of 
Government  upon  this  subject  also ;  provide,  that  no  law  appropriating  the  public 
revenue  to  such  objects,  or  borrowing  money  for  them,  upon  the  public  credit,  shall 


DEBATES    OF   THE   CONVENTION.  '  2.91 

be  enacted  without  the  concurrence  of  specified  majorities  in  both  Houses  :  majorities 
of  four-sevenths,  three-fifths,  or  whatever  else  might  be  equivalent  to  the  whole  res- 
training power,  which  your  favourite  basis  would  give  you.  However  reluctant  I 
should  be  to  add  to  the  very  strong  shackles,  which  nature  hasim])0£ed  upon  the  pow- 
er of  leofislation  on  this  subject,  I  could  not  hesitate  to  adopt  such  limitations'  upon 
the  power  of  the  majority,  rather  than  yield  it  to  the  minority. 

Jf  you  think  that  guards  are  necessary  to  restrain  the  improvident  application  of 
public  money,  to  the  purpose  of  educating  the  poor,  prescribe  them  at  your  pleasure ; 
for  myself,  I  give  you  a  carte  hlancJie  on  this  subject. 

If  none  of  these  expedients  will  impose  an  efiectual  restraint ;  if  the  power  of  the 
majority  is  so  great,  that  you  fear  its  irresistible  strength  will  burst  all  tiie  bonds  im- 
posed upon  it,  do  not  claim  this  uncontroulable  power  for  the  minority  :  there  is  an 
expedient,  by  which  it  may  be  denied  to  both.  Apply  3^our  basis  to  the  Senate,  and 
let  ours  be  applied  to  the  House  of  Delegates.  You  have  told  us  you  do  not  ask 
power  ;  you  only  ask  for  protection ;  and  you  say  that  power  only  can  resist  power. 
There  is  certainly  no  method  b}'  which  you  can  use  the  power  of  the  minority  as  a 
check  to  the  power  of  the  majority,  but  by  giving  to  each  the  power  in  one  branch  of 
the  Legislature.  Do  not  understand  me,  as  advocating  such  a  distribution  of  power, 
upcjp.  principle,  or  as  conceding  that  it  is  required  hy  the  peculiar  condition  of  Vir- 
ginia. All  I  say  is,  that  it  is  the  utmost  extent  to  which  jonr  own  principles  would 
carry  you.  You  object  that  such  a  Senate  v»-ould  be  no  suiiicient  safe-guard,  becausa 
being  the  smaller  body,  and  representing  in  some  degree  the  property  of  the  country, 
it  would  be  sticrmatized  as  the  aristocratic  branch  of  the  Government,  and  would  not 
be  able  to  resist  the  measures  of  the  popular  branch  of  the  Legislature.  We  are  told, 
that  though  it  may  resist  for  a  short  time,  it  must  yield  to  the  popular  voice  in  tha 
course  of  a  few  years,  as  all  experience  proves. 

These  objections,  I  think,  are  wholly  unfounded.  My  experience  in  the  Senate  of 
Virginia,  induces  me  to  think  that  it  is  admirably  suited  to  guard  the  legislation  of 
the  country  against  injustice,  and  the  influence  of  popular  clamour.  It  has  neverthe- 
less been  reproached  as  the  aristocratic  branch  of  the  Legislature,  wherever  it  op- 
posed itself  firmly  to  the  popular  branch,  as  it  often  did,  to  the  almost  unanimous  vote 
of  the  House  of  Delegates.  The  four  years  term  of  service,  the  classification,  which 
carries  out  one  fourth  of  its  members  each  year,  and  leaves  the  other  three  fourtlis  to 
render  their  account  to  their  constituents,  only  when  they  have  had  one,  two  or  three 
years'  experience  of  their  measures  and  reflection  upon  their  conduct,  gives  a  confi- 
dence to  their  opposition  of  injustice,  and  of  tlie  mi.schievous  measures  v\diich  popu- 
lar excitement  dicta.tes,  that  is  very  rarelj'-  subdued.  It  is  true,  Sir,  that  a  Senate 
constituted  as  ours  is,  cannot  for  a  series  of  3'ears,  resist  the  settled  wishes  of  the 
people  :  Nor  should  they.  Like  all  father  representative  bodies,  they  ouglit  to  yield, 
and  must  yield,  to  the  deliberate  will  of  their  constituents.  And  so  ought,  and  so 
must  3'^our  Senate  formed  upon  the  compound  basis,  yield  to  the  settled  will  of  their 
constituents.  Nor  can  you  desire  tliat  it  should  be  otherwise.  Their  constituents 
will  be  that  very  minority,  that  very  people  to  v."hom  you  desire  to  give  the  power  : 
But,  they  will  not  yield  to  the  will  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  nor  to  the  will  of  the 
constituents  of  the  House  of  Delegates.  The  two  constituent  bodies  will  be  differ- 
ent, and  as  the  members  of  each  House  will  look  to  their  own  constituents  for  a  re- 
newal of  the  trust  confided  to  them,  and  fur  approbation  of  their  conduct,  so  they  will 
look  to  the  same  source  for  instructions,  and  for  that  settled  popular  will,  which  must 
habitually  guide  the  representative.  I  cannot  doubt  that  such  a  Senate  would  afford 
ample  protection  against  all  the  dangers  to  property,  v^diich  have  been  apprehended 
from  the  pov,'er  of  the  majority. 

I  have  endeavored  to  show  that  no  such  protection  is  necessary,  that  no  such  dan- 
ger exists.  I  have  said  in  another  place,  and  I  will  repeat  here,  that  yo<jr  peculiar 
property  does  not  require  representation  in  order  to  give  it  influence  and  power  in 
the  Government.  You  having  more  wealth — your  lands  being  cultivated  by  slaves- 
all  the  menial  duties  in  your  families  being  performed  by  slaves — your  white  jjeople 
have  more  leisure  to  devote  to  tlie  cultivation  of  their  minds,  better  opportunity  to 
prepare  themselves  for  those  stations  in  society,  which  give  distinction  and  pov»'er  to 
talent,  than  can  possibly  be  enjt)3'ed  b3-  3'our  W^estern  brethren.  In  answer  to  this, 
it  is  said  to  be  a  ridiculous  mocker3^  to  speak  of  the  wealth  of  the  lovrer  country,  and 
I  have  been  asked  v\'hether  I  know  a  single  man  in  the  Commovi wealth,  who  has 
been  more  than  half  educated  since  the  re^'^olution.  I  know  not  b3^  what  standard 
gentlemen  would  estimate  wealth  or  education ;  and  I  have  said  nothing  of  great 
riches  or  finished  educations.  But  the  whole  argument  of  the  Eastern  gentlemen, 
and  the  scheme  of  representation  they  propose,  are  founded  upon  tiie  suptTior  wealth 
of  the  East,  and  I  can  appeal  to  numberless  witnesses,  among  the  livincr  and  the 
dead,  wiio  will  bear  ample  testimony  to  the  fact,  that  in  the  East  have  befen  born  and 
educated,  almost  all  our  distinguished  orators,  jurists  and  Statesmen.  Where  do  you 
find  the  eminent  men,  v/ho  in  former  or  latter  times,  have  ornamented  your  bar  and 


292 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


your  bench,  have  enhghtened  and  guided  your  Legislative  Councils,  State  and  Fe- 
deral ?  Whence  your  long  list  of  Governors,  and  your  race  of  Presidents  ?  It  is 
the  natural,  the  necessary  effect  of  your  slave  population  to  give  these  advantages; 
and  they  must  give  political  power.  But  I  am  asked,  whether  if  superior  wealth 
gives  superior  intelligence,  that  intelligence  does  not  give  superior  virtue — and  whe- 
ther I  would  withdraw  the  power  of  the  Government  from  its  intelligence  and 
virtue. 

This  is  ingenious  catechism,  Mr.  Chairman,  but  not  sound  reasoning.  It  does  not 
follow,  that  when  superior  numbers  are  on  one  side,  and  superior  talent  on  the  other, 
the  power  of  the  Government  will  be  with  the  superior  numbers — This  conclusion 
would  deny  the  influence  that  talent  exerts  over  numbers.  And  much  less  does  it 
follow,  that  superior  intelligence  gives  superior  virtue  in  that  condition  of  life  to 
which  this  argument  applies.  I  might  very  safely  concede,  and  I  do  concede,  that  in 
the  retired  walks  of  private  life,  intelligence  cherishes,  if  it  does  not  create  virtue; 
rebukes  and  restrains,  if  it  does  not  repel  or  subdue  vice.  But  I  cannot  admit,  that 
the  school  of  politics,  is  the  school  of  value.  I  should  not  look  for  the  most  virtuous 
men  among  that  class,  however  enlightened,  who  have  been  long  disciplined  in  the 
arts  of  electioneering  and  intrigue  ;  who  have  been  accustomed  to  the  sinmlation,  and 
dissimulation  practised  in  the  management  of  men;  who  have  been  drilled  inj;he 
tactics  of  party  warfare,  and  have  become  veterans  in  the  conduct  of  political  cam- 
paigns. I  should,  with  more  confidence,  look  for  them  among  the  independent  and 
intelligent  in  the  middle  class  of  society  ;  who  obey  a  call  into  the  public  service  as  a 
matter  of  duty  ;  whose  ambition  is  satisfied,  if  that  duty  is  faithfully  performed  ;  who 
find  their  chief  happiness  in  this  life,  in  the  bosom  of  their  own  families,  and  limit 
their  principal  desires  to  the  boundary  of  their  own  farms.  1  cannot  allow,  then,  to 
your  superior  intelligence  any  necessary  superiority  of  virtue ;  and  though  we  are 
willing  that  you  should  enlighten  the  path  of  our  duty  and  persuade  us  to  follow  it, 
we  cannot  consent  that  you  should  prescribe  it. 

While  I  would  most  cheerfully  submit  to  the  natural  influence  of  your  talents; 
while  I  would  most  cordially  co-operate  with  you,  in  any  reasonable  measure  to  guard 
your  property  against  all  injustice  from  the  power  of  the  majority,  I  never  can  con- 
sent to  surrender  the  power  into  the  hands  of  the  minority — to  give  them  the  com- 
plete dominion  over  the  persons  and  property  of  the  majority.  You  ask,  what  security 
we  can  give  you  for  the  protection  of  your  property  ?  We  ask,  what  security  you 
can  give  us  for  the  protection  of  our  persons  and  property  ?  You  tell  us  you  have 
not  abused  your  power,  you  have  been  guilty  of  no  injustice,  no  oppression  for  fifty 
years.  We  tell  you,  that  you  admit  us  to  be  tlie  same  people  with  yourselves,  enti- 
tled to  equal  confidence,  and  that  if  your  good  conduct,  for  fifty  years,  is  evidence 
that  the  minority  will  rule  justly,  it  is  equal  evidence  that  the  majority  of  the  same 
people  will  rule  justly.  But  you  place  your  principal  reliance  on  the  position,  that 
the  legislation  which  you  would  adopt  for  the  promotion  of  3-our  own  interests  and 
protection  of  your  own  rights,  v/ould  necessarily  promote  our  interests  and  protect 
our  rights.    Let  us  examine  this. 

Upon  the  subject  of  internal  improvements,  have  you  not  told  us,  that  the  interests 
of  the  West  required  one  system,  and  the  interests  of  the  middle  country  another; 
and  is  it  not  a  very  general  opmion,  in  the  Eastern  district,  that  their  interests  require 
none.?  Consult,  then,  the  supposed  interest  of  the  East  and  abandon  all  improve- 
ments, or  consult  the  views  of  the  middle  country,  and  adopt  the  system  best  suited 
to  them,  adopt  a  narrow,  selfish  policy,  and  stop  all  your  improvements  at  the  base  of 
the  Blue  Ridge,  take  our  money  to  make  them,  and  what  becomes  of  the  necessary 
connexion  between  your  interest  and  ours,  of  the  protection  you  were  compelled  to 
give  us,  in  protecting  yourselves  ? 

Again;  you  have  already  told  us  that  your  slaves  were  too  highly  taxed — a  position 
which  we  controvert.  Suppose  you  reduce  the  tax  one-half,  and  throw  the  burthen 
on  lands.? — or  suppose  that  you  persuade  yourselves,  that  retributive  justice  requires 
that  as  your  slaves  have  been  taxed  too  high  for  the  last  fifty  years,  they  should  not 
be  taxed  at  all  for  the  next,  and  act  accordingly  ;  would  this  measure  adopted  to  pro- 
mote your  interests,  necessarily  promote  ours  also.? 

Is  it,  as  you  have  supposed,  that  there  are  no  subjects  of  taxation  in  the  West,  that 
do  not  equally  abound  ia  the  East — none  on  wliich  a  tax  could  be  levied,  that  would 
not  bear  as  heavily  on  the  East  as  on  the  West  ?  The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield 
supposed  that  the  tax  on  horned  cattle  would  bear  as  heavily  on  the  planting  districts 
of  the  East,  as  it  would  on  the  grazing  districts  of  the  West,  and  quotes  the  experi- 
ment of  a  single  year,  during  the  late  war,  to  sustain  his  conclusion.  He  tells  us  that 
this  experiment  produced  as  much  revenue  from  the  East,  as  from  the  West.  He 
supposes  that  he  himself,  a  few  years  before,  had  made  the  first  proposition  that  ever 
was  submitted  to  the  Legislature,  for  imposing  a  tax  on  cattle — and  that  this  single 
experiment,  resulting  so  differently  from  what  was  anticipated,  is  good  assurance  that 
the  tax  can  never  be  resorted  to,  as  the  means  of  imposing  undue  burthens  on  the 


DEBATES  OF  THE  COXVE>-TION. 


293 


West.  Without  examininnr  the  result  of  the  tax  laid  during  the  late  ^ar,  or  enquiring 
into  its  cause.  I  should  be  rerv  sceptical  in  the  opinion  that  a  cattle  tax  could  operate 
equally,  in  the  East  and  the  West — equally  upon  a  corn,  a  cotton,  or  tobacco  planta- 
tion, and  upon  a  grain-growing  or  grazing  fai-m ;.  and  I,  with  all  otlier  "\'S_estern  men, 
would  be  very  un^-illinff  to  see  the"question  brought  to  the  test  of  experience.  Time 
may  come,  when  it  wilf  be.  My  friend  from  Chesterfield  is  mistaken  in  supposing 
that  he  first  proposed  this  tax.  It  was  habitually  levied  during  the  revolutionary  war, 
and  for  some  years  afterwards  ;  and  no  doubt,  there  had  been  paid  the  assessed  three 
pence  upon  the  head  of  that  very  bullock  which  was  impressed  by  an  ofiicer  of  tlie 
revolution  from  John  Hook,  and"  whose  moaning  low""  figured  so  conspicuously  in 
the  eloquence  of  Patrick  Henry. 

But,  Sir,  it  would  not  be  dilficult  to  find  many  subjects  of  taxation  in  the  West,  in 
wliich  the  Eastern  people  have  comparatively  no  interest.  Even  their  extensive  coal 
mines  may,  at  a  future  day,  be  the  subject  of  a  burthensome  tax.  in  which  they  would 
find  no  svmpathy  East  of  the  mountains,  except  in  the  counties  of  Chesterfield  and 
Henrico."  But  look  at  the  boundless  stores  of  metallic  ore  which  the  Western  moun- 
tains every  where  contain,  and  their  extensive  salt  works,  to  the  growth  of  which 
there  is  scarcely  an  assignable  hmit ;  and  you  cannot  doubt  that  a  disposition  to  im- 
pose unjust  burthens  on  the  West,  could  readily  find  the  means.  Does  any  one 
doubt  how  unequally  an  excise  on  distilled  spirits  would  operate.'  I  must  not  be  un- 
derstood as  imputincr  to  the  people  of  the  East  any  disposition  to  impose  unjust  taxes, 
or  injurious  legislation  of  any  kind  on  those  of  the  West.  I  do  not  believe  they  have 
any  such  disposition — but  it  is  my  duty  to  show  tliat  if  they  had,  it  might  be  indulged  j 
and  that,  therefore,  we  have  the  same  reason  for  withholding  extraordinary  confidence 
from  them,  which  they  think  they  have  for  withholding  from  us  the  ordinary  confi- 
dence which  is  extended  to  the  majority  of  equals. 

To  the  proposed  compound  basis,  ^Ir.  Chainnan,  I  have  insuperable  objections. 
As  its  direct  object  and  effect  will  be  to  give  the  power  to  the  minority,  so  its  natu- 
xdl.  if  not  necessary  consequence  will  be  to  propitiate  that  power,  even  although  the 
reasons  for  bestowins-  it  should  pass  away.  In  process  of  time,  the  works  of  internal 
improvement  may  cease  to  be  a  subject  of  jealousy,  and  tlie  slave  population  may  be- 
come so  generally  difi'used,  as  to  quiet  all  fears  on  that  score — and  yet  the  power  of 
the  Government  being  in  the  hands  of  the  minority,  they  might  so  regulate  the  taxes, 
as  to  retain  that  power  at  pleasure.  They  would  be  the  sole  judges,  whether  they 
would  pay  the  purchase  money.  Was  it  to  this  event,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  the  gen- 
tleman firom  Northampton  sagaciously  looked  forward,  when  he  asked  the  emphatic 
and  significant  question,  whether  we  were  willing  to  pay  the  whole  expenses  of  Go- 
vernment, and  take  its  whole  power  2So,  Sir,  I  do  not  beheve  tliat  ihat  gentleman 
had  in  contemplation  any  such  abuse  of  the  power,  which  he  desired  to l^estow  on 
the  minority — I  believe  that  his  was  a  mere  rhetorical  question — and  vet  it  could  not 
fail  to  remind  us  of  the  value  which  ambition  sets  upon  power,  and  led  us  to  enquire 
what  price  the  minority  might  be  willing  to  pay  for  tliat  which  the  majority  would 
not,  or  could  not  purchase.  Looking  back  but  a  few  years  into  the  history  of  our 
own  Government,  we  are  taught,  by  the  extreme  reluctance  with  which  that  minori- 
ty parted  with  their  povrer  in  the  Senate,  for  wliich  they  paid  the  price  of  a  double  or  a 
triple  land  tax — how  highlv  it  was  valued  by  them.  Considerino-  the  very  small 
amount  of  the  taxes  of  the  State,  it  can  scarcely  be  deemed  unreasonable  to  suppose, 
that  the  people  East  of  the  mountain  would  always  be  willing  to  pay  a  double  portion 
of  them,  as  tlie  price  of  the  power  of  the  Government.  Whether  they  would  or  no, 
they  ought  not  to  be  exposed  to  the  temptation — we  ought  not  to  be  exposed  to  tlie 
danger. 

Another,  and  perhaps  more  serious  objection  to  the  compound  ratio,  is  the  tenden- 
cy of  the  principle  on  which  it  is  founded.  Although,  in  the  actual  condition  of  Vir- 
ginia, it  would  establish  no  aristocracy  or  oligarchy,  would  leave  us  still  a  popular 
Government,  yet  it  is  wise  to  examine  its  bearing,  and  consider  how  far  it  is  proper 
to  admit  it  into  our  republic.  The  principle  is,  that  as  property  must  be  protected,  it 
must  have  a  representation,  which  would  give  its  owners  the  po\ver  of  the  Government 
as  the  only  effectual  means  of  protection.  Now  it  is  manifest,  that  the  arcrunient  in 
favor  of  such  protection  strengthens,  as  you  increase  the  value  of  the  propertv  and 
diminish  the  district  in  which  it  is  situated — So  that  if  the  whole  slave  population  of 
Virginia  were  confined  to  the  tide-water  district,  that  district  mioht  a  fortiori  claim  the 
power  of  the  Government  as  essential  to  its  protection.  But,  would  such  a  claim 
be  tolerated  for  a  moment Could  it  be  allowed,  and  leave  any  longer  a  popular  Go- 
vernment .=  No,  sir  !  But,  yet  there  is  in  the  nature  of  our  Government  an  appro- 
priate protection  for  property  thus  situated,  thus  exposed  to  danger— and  a  wise  ma- 
jority would  not  fail  to  furnish  it.  They  would  not  surrender  the  power  to  this  small 
minority  or  to  any  other  :  but  they  would  erect  constitutional  barriers  to  the  exercise  of 
their  own  power— and  if  they  beheved  every  other  in-fEcient.  thev  would  o-ive  to  the 
minority  a  veto  upon  those  laws  wliich  might  invade  their  riohts.  It  is  in  tliis  veto  that 


294 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


the  cliecks  and  balances  of  well  adjusted  Governments  must  be  found,  where  the  ob- 
ject is  to  protect  warring  interests  from  the  power  of  each  other.  Tlie  various  instan- 
ces of  the  restraint  upon  the  power  of  the  majority,  referred  to  by  the  gentleman  from 
Orange,  (Mr.  Barbour,)  are  all  either  restraints  upon  the  power  of  the  majority,  for 
the  protection  of  the  rights  of  the  minority,  or  expedients  to  secure  deliberation,  and 
protect  the  majority  itself  from  the  effects  of  inconsiderate  action.  None  of  them 
are  intended  to  give  power  to  the  majority.  Let  us  not  then  admit  into  our  Consti- 
tution the  principle  that  the  property  of  the  country,  as  essential  to  its  protection, 
must  possess  the  power  of  the  Government. 

In  conclusion,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  beg  the  Committee  carefully  and  impartially  to  com- 
pare the  two  propositions  v/hich  are  submitted  to  their  choice — to  reflect  on  the  simpli- 
city, the  uniform  character  and  operation  of  the  one,  its  entire  conformity  with  the  great 
principles  of  our  Government,  and  on  the  complex  and  varying  character  of  the  other, 
its  proneness  to  abuse,  and  its  strong  tendency  to  discredit,  if  not  to  condemn  the  doc- 
trines which  we  have  been  taught  most  to  respect  and  reverence — to  enquire,  whether 
the  one,  with  a  proper  limitation  of  the  Right  of  SulFrage,  does  not  afford  the  best 
possible  assurance  of  protection  to  all  interests,  and  security  to  all  rights,  while  the 
other  endangers  the  very  objects  it  seeks  to  secure — and,  above  all,  to  remember,  that 
the  one  leads  to  the  restoration  of  confidence  and  good  feeling,  the  establishment  of 
lasting  peace  and  harmony,  the  preservation  of  the  power,  the  character,  the  inte- 
grity of  the  State — while  the  other  sows  the  seeds  of  never-dying  jealousy  jand  con- 
tention, and  threatens  mischief  which  no  human  wisdom  can  calculate,  and  no  patriot 
can  look  upon  without  horror. 

I  beg  the  Committee's  forgiveness,  for  having  detained  them  so  long,  in  a  very  labo- 
rious and  unprofitable  effort  to  discharge  my  duty,  and  I  have  now  only  to  ask,  that 
if  any  thing  has  escaped  me,  importing  any  manner  of  disrespect,  or  in  the  smallest 
deorree  wounding  the  feelings  of  any  one — gentlemen  will  recollect  that  I  have  not 
that  happiness  of  phrase,  which  always  faithfully  translates  my  thoughts  into  lan- 
guage, and  be  assured  that  I  have  too  much  real  respect  and  kind  feehng  towards 
every  member  of  this  Committee,  to  allow  me  for  a  moment,  to  entertain  towards 
one  of  them  an  offensive  sentiment. 

Pflr.  Stanard  now  rose  and  addressed  the  Committee  in  nearly  the  following  words  : 

My  sincerity,  I  am  sure,  will  not  be  doubted  vv^lien  I  avow  the  reluctance  1  feel  in 
addressing  the  Comsnittee  at  this  stage  of  the  debate.  Conscious  that  I  have  but  little 
title  to  claim  attention,  at  any  time,  I  cannot  hope  that  at  this  any  will  be  acknowledg- 
ed, or  that  I  shall  be  able  to  requite  the  attention  which  courtesy  may  accord,  by  any 
thing  that  I  can  extract  from  a  theme  already  so  elaborately  discussed.  A  jaded  au- 
dience, and  an  exhausted  subject,  are  certainly  very  strong  discouragements  ;  and  the 
force  of  these  discouragements  is  augmented  by  the  circumstance,  that  I  follow  the 
able  gentleman  who  has  just  closed  his  argument. 

Powerful  considerations  alone  could  overrule  these  dissuasives,  and  by  such  I  am 
impelled.  They  arise  out  of  the  situation,  (not  entirely  peculiar,  but  not  common  to 
many,)  which  I  hold  in  this  Assembly.  Though  for  many  years  separated  by  resi- 
dence from  those  whose  interests  I  here  represent,  they,  disregarding  this  almost  in- 
superable objection,  have  selected  me  as  one  of  the  depositories  of  the  important  trust 
with  which  this  Assembly  is  charged.  By  so  touching  a  proof  of  kindness  and  con- 
fidence, they  have  entitled  themselves  to  my  most  grateful  and  devoted  service.  The 
question  in  debate  involves  some  of  their  dearest  interests,  and  the  vote  that  I  shall 
give  on  it,  will,  as  I  believe,  sustain  those  interests,  while  it  will  accord  with  the  opin- 
ions of  a  great  majority  of  my  constituents.  These  interests  have  been  assailed,  and 
these  opinions  have  been  stigmatised,  and  I  feel  that  the  generous  confidence  which 
has  placed  me  here,  requires  of  me  the  requital  of  an  attempt  to  uphold  those  inter- 
ests and  vindicate  those  opinions,  though  I  should  sink  under  the  effort. 

The  amendment  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  and  which  it  is  my 
purpose  to  sustain,  has  been  characterised  as  anti-republican,  aristocratical,  oligar- 
chical ;  and  these  epithets,  I  have  cause  to  apprehend,  may  be  fastened  by  popular  de- 
lusion, to  the  opinions  of  vv^hich  I  am  the  organ,  to  their  disparagement,  and  to  the  in- 
jury of  the  interests  connected  with  them.  It  is  due  to  my  constituents,  that  I  should 
eodeavor  to  redeem  their  opinions  from  these  stigmas. 

I  yield  my  ready  concurrence  to  the  sentiment  of  gratulation,  which  has  been  re- 
peatedly expressed  on  the  temper  of  this  debate.  It  has  my  entire  approbation.  Here 
passion  should  have  no  voice,  because  here  it  ought  not,  and,  as  I  trust,  it  cannot  find 
a  proselyte.  While  I  shall  conform  myself  to  the  spirit  which  has  thus  far  governed 
the  discussion,  I  have  no  hope  to  imitate  those  who  have  preceded  me  in  the  impres- 
siveness  and  strength  of  their  argument.  Their  eloquence  I  shall  not  attempt  to 
emulate.  Did  I  feel  myself  competent  to  do  so,  I  should  find  in  the  recent  experi- 
ence of  this  Committee  a  lesson  of  dissuasion,  too  impressive  to  be  unheeded.  For 
who,  Sir,  has  forgotten  how  instantaneously  the  spell  attempted  to  be  thrown  over  this 
body  by  the  impassioned  peroration  of  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun  was  dissolved. 


DEBATES   OF   THS  CONVEXTIOX. 


295 


and  the  memory  of  it  obliterated  by  the  sober  realities,  the  ponderous  facts,  the  lumi- 
nous statements,  and  the  cogent 'arfiruments  by  which  they  were  connected,  ot  the 
gentleman  from  Accomac  (Mr.  Joynes.)  The  insti-iction  I  draw  from  tms  lesson 
is,  that  this  is  not  a  proper  theatre  for  such  displays.  And  here  permit  me  to  say,  that 
I  would  not  stint  to  the  West  the  euloory  they  merit.  I  would  not  deny  the  meed  of 
praise  for  the  seryices  and  sacrifices  so 'eloquently  commemorated  by  the  gentleman 
from  Loudoun.  It  would  not  suit  my  feelings  or  sense  of  justice  to  do  so.  But,  tlus^ 
claim  is  no  novelty.  It  has  been  ur^ed  on  this  floor,  by  lips  as  eloquent  as  those  ot 
the  gentleman  from' Loudoun.  It  has-been  repeated,  and  reiterated  again  and  again, 
witliin  these  walls.  The  claim  has  been  acknowledged,  whenever  it  has  been  assert- 
ed. It  was  heard  here  in  1S16,  when  an  extensive  scheme  of  banking  was  brought 
before  the  Assembly,  and  thouofh  in  that  instance  it  failed  to  produce  the  intended  ef- 
fect on  that  measure';  yet  if  evil  averted,  may  be  permitted  to  stand,  as  good  conferred, 
the  West  was  certainly  m.ore  than  indemnified,  lor  all  its  sacrifices,  by  havmg  averted 
from  its  borders  a  moral  pestilence,  which  would  have  contaminated  its  morality,  and 
overwhelmed  its  property.  It  was  heard  again  on  this  floor,  when  the  expenses  of  the 
very  epoch  at  which  the  services  were  rendered,  were  returned  to  us  by  the  Lnited 
States,  and  Yiro-inia  was  indemnified  for  her  advances,  and  when  a  destination  was 
to  be  ffiven  to  the  large  amount  then  received  by  the  State.  That  sum,  which,  in  the 
proportion  of  three  or  four  to  o  .e,  had  been  advanced  by  the  East,  was,  with  a  com- 
mendable generosity,  partitiourd,  not  in  the  proportion  of  three  to  one,  nor  of  two 
to  one,  but"of  one  to  one,  or  at  least  three  to  tw-o,  vvith  the  people  of  the  West.  How 
often  it  has  been  heard'  since,  all  those  cannot  fail  to  recollect,  who  have  had  any 
share  in  our  public  councils.  I  say  not  this  by  vray  of  disparagement,  nor  from  any 
want  of  gratitude  :  but  may  I  not  be  permitted  to  ask,  is  this  service  of  tlie  West  al- 
ways to  stand  without  any  counterpoise  1  Is  it  to  endure  for  all  time  and  for  all  pur- 
poses, as  an  undiminished  charge  against  the  East  on  which  to  demand  forever  new 
sacrifices  and  new  concessions  3Iu5t  it  be  considered  like  our  obligations  to  our 
Creator,     a  debt  immense  of  endless  gratitude,  still  paying — still  to  ovre 

Is  the  service  such  that  nothing  can  requite  it,  but  the  surrender  of  the  power  over 
the  whole  property  of  the  East  ?  "Xor  do  I  mean  to  question  the  virtue  or  intelligence 
of  the  people  on  which  you,  Mr.  Chairman,  so  earnestly  insisted,  when  you  recently 
addressed  the  Committee.  I  yield  on  this  subject  all  that  was  claimed  by  you.  But 
may  I  not  ask,  are  the  means  resorted  to,  to  preserve  it,  judicious  t  Is  it  wise,  when 
we  would  guard  our  virtue,  to  separate  interest  from  duty:  to  expose  that  virtue  to 
the  strongest  temptation?  Ought  we  to  do  this  at  a  time,  when  we  propose  to  break 
up  the  existing  order  of  society,  and  to  change  its  organic  law;  at  a  time,  when  the 
minds  of  men  are  cut  loose  from  their  moorings,  and  all  things  and  all  principles  are 
set  afloat 

Nor  do  I  mean,  crentlemen  of  the  West,  one  and  all,  (I  speak  with  the  utmost  sin- 
cerity, and  that  my  language  is  not  the  profession  of  the  day  or  for  the  occasion,  I 
appeal  to  my  public  course  when  I  was  a  public  man,)  I  mean  not  to  question  your 
honor,  nor  to  say,  nor  to  insinuate,  that  you  have  a  desire  to  revel  in  the  spoil  of  the 
East :  I  do  not  ground  my  course  of  ac'aon  on  the  belief,  that  any  spirit  of  rapine 
will  govern  you  or  your  sons.  2So.  gentlemen,  I  have  full  faith  in  your  sincerity.  I 
have  confidence  in  your  honor  personally  and  politically — I  question  not  the  sincerity 
of  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  (in  truth  I  do  not.)  Even  when  shedding  teai-s  of 
angmsh  over  the  desolate  fields  and  mouldering  mansions  of  the  tide-water  country, 
and  bewailing  them  with  a  pathos  that  almost  extorted  tears  from  others,  and  looking 
with  rapt  vision  to  the  consummation  of  his  hopes  of  future  improvement,  he  surren- 
dered himself  to  the  illusion,  that  verdure  and  fertihty  could  he  restored  to  these 
wastes,  by  taking  from  their  owners  a  portion  of  their  scanty  products  to  improve  the 
highlands  and  torrents  of  the  West.  No,  Sir.  I  have  not  attained  the  years  which. 
I  now  number,  without  instruction  from  experience,  which  eissures  me  how  possible 
it  is  for  tlie  strongest  mind,  and  the  pm'est  heart,  to  be  exposed  to  delusions  of  this 
kind. 

It  is  important,  that  before  advancing  in  the  discussion,  we  should  have  a  correct 
conception  of  what  is  the  real  question  before  us ;  that  we  should  clearly  understand 
what  is  the  matter  in  issue.  It  is  not  the  issue  which  the  gentleman  from  Augusta 
made  up,  (Mr.  Johnson.)  That  gentleman  essentially  chanofed  the  issue  presented  by 
the  resolution  of  the  Committee,  and  the  amendment  proposed  to  it.  And  here  let 
me  say  in  passing,  that  if  he  was  right  in  all  he  said,  then  we  are  disputuig  about  a 
mere  form  of  words,  and  nothing  more.  Both  the  resolution  and  the  amendment  are 
only  means  to  an  end;  tliat  end  once  attained,  it  is  a  matter  of  little  consequence 
whether  the  means  be  preserved  or  not :  they  are  from  that  moiuent  of  little  value. 
What  do  we  learn  from  the  statistics  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  as  applied  to 
his  interpretation  of  what  he  makes  the  riddle  of  the  Committee.'  The  first  thing 
tliat  we  learn,  is,  that  the  ratios  furnished  by  the  entire  number  of  the  white  popula^ 


296 


DEBATES   OF  THE 


CONVENTION. 


tion,  are  different  from  the  ratio  arising  from  that  portion  of  the  community  which 
are  Cathohc,  wliich  belong  to  tlie  body  pohtic,  and  exercise  the  Right  of  Suffrage. 
He,  in  aj  portioning  representation,  is  for  excluding  all  but  those  who  have  the 
Catholic  qualification  ;  and  applying  this  rule  to  the  data  furnished  by  the  Auditor's 
statements,  it  is  shown  that  the  masses  of  power  in  the  four  grand  divisions  of  the 
State,  scarce  differ  by  units  from  those  which  will  be  quoted  to  them  by  the  adoption 
of  the  amendment,  and  the  application  of  the  rule  it  would  furnish. 

After  this  digression,  (to  which  I  have  been  led  by  the  strong  impression  his  state- 
ment made  on  my  mind,)  let  me  turn  back  to  the  hne  of  argument  I  intended  to 
pursue. 

The  first  thing  it  becomes  us  to  look  at,  is  the  erroneous  representation  of  the  ques- 
tion before  the  Committee,  and  the  gratuitous  assumption  of  the  principles  which 
are  to  resolve  it.  The  question  has  been  treated,  as  if  it  were  one  now  before  the 
sovereign  power  of  the  State,  in  its  primary  assemblies,  and  the  people  were  called 
to  give  their  final  vote  upon  it.  It  has  been  treated,  as  if  the  integers  of  this  assembly 
were  to  be  reckoned  for  more  or  less,  according  to  the  mass  of  population  in  their 
several  districts,  as  if,  telling  over  the  members  of  the  Convention,  name  by  name, 
and  putting  a  value  on  each,  the  question  was  to  be  decided,  not  by  the  numbers  pre- 
sent in  this  body,  but  by  the  numbers  of  the  population  they  represent : — and  the  ma- 
jority of  these  latter  numbers  having  been  ascertained,  those  represent  lUg  this  ma- 
jority, should  prescribe  the  terms  of  the  Constitution,  and  the  minority  liave  no  fur- 
ther voice.  Sir,  is  this  correct.^  Or,  is  not  such  an  assumption  at  war  with  the  very 
ends  of  our  appointment,  the  very  nature  of  our  trust,  and  derogatory  to  that  intelli- 
gence we  are  so  lavish  in  ascribing  to  this  Assembly  ?  If  this  be  the  true  question, 
instead  of  prudence,  knowledge  and  virtue,  the  sum'total  of  the  quahties  required  in 
us,  is  the  capacity  to  add,  subtract,  and  strike  a  balance,  and  the  entire  argument  con- 
sists in  the  force  of  that  balance,  when  struck.  If  this  be  the  true  question,  and  these 
the  means  of  solving  it,  then  is  this  Convention  a  mere  bed  of  justice,  and  its  entire 
function  is  to  record  the  pretended  edict  of  the  people.  The  terms  of  that  edict  are 
to  be  dictated  by  a  self-selected  portion  of  this  body,  and  its  obligation  is  to  be  found 
by  summing  up  the  quantity  of  the  people,  young  and  old,  children  and  men,  male  and 
female,  and  thus  fixing  the  value  of  the  votes  of  those  (the  self-selected  part  of  this 
assembly)  who  represent  them.  What  is  the  use  of  deliberation  Why  did  we  re- 
solve ourselves  into  special  Committees;  into  miniature  Conventions.?  Why" do  we 
sit  here  discussing  questions  from  day  to  day,  and  from  week  to  week  ?  Why  did  the 
people  look  round  to  collect  the  patriarchs  of  the  land,  that  they  might  bring  their  pru- 
dence, and  wisdom,  and  experience  here  ?  Why  all  this,  if  all  we  have  to  do  is  only  to 
add  and  to  subtract.''  No,  Sir ;  this  representation  of  the  question,  which,  I  believe,  has 
had  more  effect  both  here  and  elsewhere,  than  all  other  arguments,  is  utterly  fallacious. 
Considerations  of  majority  or  minority  do  not  belong  to  the  initiatory  inquiry.  If 
they  did,  they  would  annul  the  functions  of  counsel  and  deliberation.  And  what  is 
the  character  of  this  Assembly  ?  We  were  sent  here  to  counsel  and  deliberate  ;  to  take 
a  broad  survey  of  this  widely-spread  nation  ;  to  take  the  measure  of  its  interests  and 
its  capacities  ;  to  weigh  facts,  to  draw  cautious  and  sagacious  inductions  ;  and  then  to 
submit  to  the  people,  not  what  they  have  prescribed,  but  that  which  we  think  a  majo- 
rity of  the  people  ought  to  ratify.  We  are  not  to  be  forestalled  by  calculations :  we  are  to 
present  the  result  of  a  wide  view  of  the  true  interests  of  the  State,  taken  by  the  con- 
gregated wisdom  of  this  body.  We  are  to  carry  into  effect  the  principle  of  our  selec- 
tion. We  are  to  have  the  influence  of  the  patriarchs  of  the  land,  to  recommend  the 
result  of  our  investigations.  We  are  to  have  the  inestimable  value  of  the  weight  of 
their  authority.  They  are  to  stand  before  the  people  as  instructors,  not  as  the  passive 
instruments  of  a  foregone  decree. 

The  true  question  is,  what  in  the  opinion  of  this  Committee,  with  all  its  experi- 
ence, and  all  its  political  prudence,  after  all  its  inductions  from  an  extended  observa- 
tion of  the  interests,  circumstances,  habits,  and  physical  aptitudes  of  the  State,  a  ma- 
jority of  the  people  ought  to  accept  as  their  organic  law. 

Here  we  are  on  a  foundation  where  we  can  exercise  our  minds ;  not  fettered  by 
the  results  of  calculations,  which,  by  pre-supposition,  has  the  authority  of  a  mandate, 
takes  away  from  us  all  free  will  and  counsel,  and  leaves  us  mere  instruments  to  as- 
certain numbers,  and  to  record  a  pretended  decree. 

I  have  remarked,  that  the  argument,  which  if  it  be  not  most  frequently  used,  is  yet 
really  the  most  prevalent  and  irresistible,  is  the  argument  of  epithets. 

I  shall  address  myself  to  that  first. 

Let  us  then  enquire,  whether  the  amendment  and  the  principles  on  which  it  pro- 
ceeds, merit  the  disparaging  epithets  which  have  been  applied  to  them.  I  shall  be 
vindicated  by  the  judgment  of  the  Committee,  in  addressing  myself  first  to  this  part 
of  the  argument,  because  I  am  satisfied  that  there  is  not  one  who  has  looked  upon  re- 
cent and  passing  scenes,  and  has  anticipated  others,  still  not  developed,  who  will  not 
concede  that  the  argument  of  epithet  is  a  most  potent  one,  if  not  the  most  potent 


DEBATES    OF    THE  CONTENTION. 


297 


one,  on  all  political  themes.  I  beg  pardon.  I  have  been  too  hasty.  I  agree  with 
my  friend  from  Chestertield,  that  there  is  one  yet  more  potent,  and.  it  is  this  :  We 
are,  or  shall  be,  the  majorit3^  Yet  even  this  is  of  little  value,  unaccompanied  and 
unaided  by  the  other.  It  shall  be  my  humble  elFort  to  disarm  my  opponents  of  this 
argument,  by  shov/ing  that  it  has  been  gratuitous!}^  assumed,  and  most  wantonly  ap- 
plied. I  shall  endeavor  to  do  this,  from  the  reason  of  the  case,  from  the  concessions 
of  our  adversaries  themselves,  (adversaries  1  hope  only,  as  they  are  our  opponents  in 
argument.)  and  from  the  examples  furnished  by  the  political  institutions  of  our  sister 
States,  and  of  the  United  States. 

As  the  means  of  fixing  a  stigma  on  an  opinion  held  by  so  many,  gentlemen  have 
assumed  that  that  opinion  commences  with  the  postulate,  that  there  are  no  principles 
in  Government.  I  am  under  no  need  of  vindicating  the  gentleman  from  pNorthamp- 
ton  from  this  imputation.  He  is  able  much  more  effectually  to  vindicate  himself. 
Whether  such  a  sentiment  is  justly  ascribed  to  him,  whether  in  fact  it  was  ever  ut- 
tered by  him,  and  if  it  was,  whether  it  must  not,  in  common  charity,  be  received  as 
only  a  strong  expression  of  the  opinion,  that  a  single  principle  is  not  a  safe  guide  in 
adapting  political  institutions  to  a  mature  people,  (the  opinion  which  I  shall  maintain,) 
I  leave  for  gentlemen  to  determine. 

[  Here  Mr.  Upshur  rose  and  declared,  that  he  never  uttered  the  opinion.] 

Mr.  Stanard  resumed. 

I  did  not  hear  the  gentleman  utter  the  sentiment,  and  his  disavowal  of  it  conforms 
to  my  recollection  of  his  argument.  Sucli  a  position  is  no  part  of  my  political  creed. 
My  creed  instructs  me  in  opposition  to  this  dogma,  that  the  principles  of  Government 
are  numerous  and  multiform ;  as  much  so  as  are  the  interests,  habitudes,  moral  con- 
dition and  phj^sical  situation  of  the  people  to  be  governed.  No  principles  in  Govern- 
ment!  Every  one  of  these  considerations  is  the  fruitful  parent  of  numerous  princi- 
ples, and  it  is  the  business  of  tlie  Statesman,  by  wide  and  extended  observations,  and 
searching  investigations,  to  extract  tlie  principles  which  ought  to  regulate  their  organic 
or  municipal  law.  Principles  multiply  v/ith  the  diversities  in  situation,  habits  and 
interests,  of  the  people  to  be  governed.  They  are  few  and  simple  among  a  new  peo- 
ple, whose  population  is  homogeneous,  whose  interests  are  united,  and  among  whom, 
no  great  disparities  or  contrarieties  are  to  be  found  :  they  become  numerous,  and  they 
multiply  in  geometrical  ratio,  as  such  a  people  advance  to  maturity,  as  they  diversify 
their  interests,  and  by  long  continuance  under  one  system  of  cro-anic  law,  they  become 
gradually  moulded  by  it  in  all  their  habits  and  interests.  These  principles  often  take 
their  origin  from  different  parts  of  the  social  circle — they  traverse  and  intersect  each 
other — one  principle  often  encounters  an  antagonist  principle — and  then  it  is  the  pro- 
vince of  wisdom  to  discern,  and  of  prudence  to  allow  the  due  proportion  of  force  to 
eacli.  Under  the  government  of  reason,  all  of  them  are  entitled  to  their  own  prero- 
gatives— though  not  equal,  (like  a  fancied  republic  of  men  where  all  are  equal,)  all 
ha^e  a  voice — and  the  ear  which  will  not  hear  ail,  is  deaf  from  the  influence  of  pre- 
judice, and  averse  from  the  policy  which  alone  can  conduct  to  peace  and  happiness. 
No  one  principle  is  to  have  a  despotic  sway,  and  to  hush  to  silence  all  the  rest.  All 
are  to  be  heard — and  here  is  our  point  of  difference. 

Gentlemen  have  imputed  to  the  supporters  of  the  amendment  of  my  friend  from 
Culpeper,  the  avowal  or  the  maintenance  of  the  sent'meiit,  that  there  are  no  prin- 
ciples in  Government — and  they,  on  the  opposite  hand,  have  given  to  one  solitary 
principle,  despotic  sway,  silencing  all  the  rest.  Gentlemen  have  applied  themselves 
to  what  they  were  pleased  to  call  an  analvsis  of  the  jirinciples  of  Government — and 
the  result  has  been  the  evolution  from  the  concrete  mass  of  one  single  principle — 
and  that  they  administer  in  its  essence,  utterl}'  disregarding  all  those  which  modify 
and  give  to  it  all  its  sanative  efficacy.  They  treat  the  subject  of  Government  as  a 
chymist  would  the  food  which  sustains  us,  and  in  which,  in  its  native,  healthful 
state,  is  found  in  combination  with  many  others — one  ingredient  which  gives  it  all  its 
flavour  and  much  of  its  nourishing  quality — but  which,  when  extracted  from  the  mass, 
and  administered  in  a  state  separated  from  that  which  assuages  and  dulcifies  it,  mad- 
dens the  brain,  while  it  ministers  no  nutriment  to  the  bod3^ 

Let  me  tell  the  Reverend  gentleman  from  Brooke,  (for,  among  the  fallacies  of  the 
day,  is  his  attempted  application  of  analogies  drawn  from  the  exact  sciences  to  that  of 
Government,)  to  whom  we  are  indebted  for  the  reference  of  the  forty-seventh  propo- 
sition of  Euclid's  first  book,  that  geometry,  whether  superficial  or  solid,  furnishes  but 
a  poor  guide,  when  we  would  measure  the  force,  ascertain  the  value,  and  fix  the  re- 
lations of  moral  and  political  quantities. 

Under  the  guidance  of  a  fallacious  analogy,  the  gentleman  thinks  it  would  be  wise 
to  set  out  with  certain  a  priori  pi'inciples,  certain  postulata  and  axiomata,  and  then 
to  keep  ourselves  witliin  the  exact  parallel  lines  which  these  guides  shall  prescribe 
to  us.  Let  me  tell  that  gentleman,  that  for  the  construction  of  political  and  moral 
theorems,  there  are  no  postulata,  wliicli  give  him  a  straight  line,  that  may  be  indefi- 
nitely extended  :  no  definition  of  a  point,  without  length  or  breadth  :  no  axiom  which 

38 


298 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION, 


allows  that  a  given  number  of  integers  combined,  is  of  the  same  value  as  the  like 
number,  indicated  by  summing  up  separate  and  detached  integers.  All  these  guides 
will  fail  him,  and  he  will  find  liimself  betrayed  into  the  most  desperate  and  fatal  er- 
rors, by  submitting  himself  to  their  absolute  sway.  Proceeding  on  his  straight  line,  he 
will  go  on,  linking  consequence  to  consequence,  and  induction  to  induction,  to  an 
almost  interminable  extent ;  like  Jacob's  ladder,  which  led  from  earth  to  Heaven — 
only,  that  this,  I  fear,  takes  the  opposite  direction. 

I  said,  that  in  constructing  moral  and  political  theorems,  especially  when  providing 
an  organic  law  for  society,  aheady  mature,  whose  interests  have  been  growing  up  for 
two  centuries,  numerous  principles  are  necessarily  required,  in  order  to  give  form  to 
a  Government,  which  will  secure  to  each  the  enjoyment  of  life,  liberty,  property, 
and  the  pursuit  of  happiness,  and  to  produce  the  greatest  sum  of  public  good. 

Let  me  now  attempt  to  furnish  some  illustrations,  and  to  correct  some  paralogisms, 
by  which  gentlemen  attempt  to  fix  on  us,  that  which  we  condemn  in  them,  viz :  the 
following  oat  of  one  principle  to  extremes,  disregarding  all  others. 

Look  to  England — grown  as  she  is  to  a  magnitude  of  opulence  and  aggrandizement, 
with  interests  distinct  in  their  nature,  enormous  in  their  amount,  and  diverse  as  to  the 
parties  possessing  them.  Is  there  a  fanatic  in  the  land,  who  would  take  up  a  priori 
principles,  if  he  were  called  to  make  a  Constitution  for  that  people,  and  be  governed 
by  them  alone  ?  Is  there  one  who  has  so  entirely  surrendered  his  mind  to  certain 
simple  abstractions,  as  that  he  would  undertake,  at  one  blow,  to  level  all  these  inter- 
ests, and  give  a  free  and  equal  representative  Government  to  that  people  Yet  the 
general  principle  of  Republican  Government  is  no  less  true,  and  without  it,  no  free 
Government  does  or  can  exist.  It  is  found  in  the  British  Constitution — modified, 
indeed,  and  maimed — and  far  below  what  it  is  in  this  country — but,  still  enough  to 
make  that  a  free  Government,  so  far  as  mere  civil  rights  are  concerned. 

But,  supposing  him  to  get  rid  of  the  most  obvious  impediments  to  the  practical 
application  of  this  famous  political  theorem,  (viz:  the  equal  rights  of  man,  and  the 
equal  enjoyment  of  political  power;)  suppose,  I  say,  that  he  gets  rid  of  the  Nobility- — 
the  Clergy — the  Corporations — and  the  Monarch — and  then  has  only  the  People 
themselves  to  provide  for,  and  he  is  called  to  apply  his  principles;  is  there  one  here, 
who  respects  the  rights  of  man,  as  a  means  to  the  end  of  public  happiness,  that  would 
extend  the  principle,  so  as  to  give,  in  the  language  of  the  propositions  of  the  gentle- 
man from  Norfolk,  to  every  man  an  equal  portion  of  political  power,  and  m.ake  the 
sole  measure  of  tliat  equality,  equal  numbers,  however  they  may  be  situated  or  com- 
binedSir,  equal  numbers  are,  in  this  matter,  not  always  of  equal  value.  Their  value 
depends  on  their  localities,  their  circumstances,  and  the  interests  which  bind  them  to- 
gether. Would  any  give,  for  example,  to  the  county  of  Middlesex  and  city  of  Lon- 
don, power  in  proportion  to  the  number  of  polls  within  the  bills  of  mortality  Far 
less  according  to  the  property  within  those  limits.  The  man  who  would  do  this, 
would  prove  himself  to  be  a  mere  driveller — a  poor  closet  speculator,  who  knew 
nothing  of  man,  his  interests,  or  his  passions.  I  have  selected  this  example,  in  order 
to  show  the  limits  I  set  to  my  own  principle.  So  firr  would  I  be  from  giving  to  Lon- 
don and  Middlesex,  an  average  of  power  according  to  their  numbers,  that  I  would 
look  to  the  lessons  of  experience  taught  us,  and  as  the  wisdom  brought  into  practical 
operation  in  our  sister  States  of  Massachusetts  and  New-Plainpshire.  The  former 
gives  a  term  to  the  number  of  representatives  of  the  town  of  Boston,  whatever  may 
be  the  number  of  inhabitants  or  their  wealth  ;  and  both  require,  as  the  numbers  of 
population  multiply  in  a  township,  a  larger  and  still  larger  number,  in  order  to  obtain 
another  integer  of  political  representation.  They  could  not,  in  consistency  with  the 
preservation  of  the  darling  principle  of  political  equality,  (darling  it  is  to  me  as  to 
any,)  mete  out  to  large  masses  of  population  combined  in  one  interest  and  directed 
by  one  will,  a  representation  equal  to  that  enjoyed  by  population  of  equal  numbers 
dispersed  in  numerous  smaller  townships.  Let  us  take  lessons  not  from  theory,  but 
from  practice — and  that  of  these  descendants  of  the  pilgrims  reads  us  a  lesson  which 
we  may  profitably  consider. 

What,  then,  becomes  of  the  reproach  attempted  to  be  fastened  on  the  friends  of 
the  amendment  ?  that  their  object  is  to  give  superiority  to  wealth  ?  So  far  from  giving 
wealth  the  prevailing  influence,  I  would,  in  the  case  to  which  I  have  resorted  for 
illustration,  strike  it  out  altogether;  and  to  counterpoise  the  consolidated  force  of 
numbers  in  the  city,  I  would  look  to  the  wealth  and  numbers  combined  in  the  coun- 
try— or  apply  the  principle  that  has  been  adopted  in  Massachusetts  and  New-Hamp- 
shire, of  requiring  larger  and  larger  numbers  to  entitle  the  growing  masses  of  the 
population  combined  by  one  interest,  to  an  additional  representative  in  the  Legisla- 
ture. 

For  farther  illustration,  let  us  take  our  position,  not  on  foreign  ground,  not  in  a 
country  where  the  Government  and  the  community  are  the  growth  of  so  many  cen- 
turies, but  in  our  own  land.  Let  us  look  at  the  State  of  New-York.  Were  I  called 
upon  to  frame  a  system  of  organic  law  which  should  protect  all  the  interests  of  so- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


299 


ciety,  and  preserve  them  in  their  proper  orbits,  I  certainly  would  not  give  to  their 
great  commercial  emporium  a  representation  according  to  its  numbers ;  far  less 
would  I  add  its  two  hundred  millions  of  property,  still  farther  to  enhance  its  over- 
grown power.  Gentlemen  may  not,  perhaps,  in  our  day,  witness  any  very  evil 
effects  from  such  a  feature  in  the  Constitution  of  that  State — but  when  that  great  city 
shall  have  extended  itself  over  the  whole  island  on  which  it  is  seated,  and  shall  have 
engulfed  all  the  neighbouring  villages,  then  those  who  shall  have  been  misled  by  the 
pragmatical  idea  of  measuring  moral  qualities  by  rules  which  apply  to  physical  quan- 
tities only,  may  rue  the  day,  when  they  adopted  a  principle  whicli  will  have  given 
the  city  of  New-York  practical  dominion  over  the  whole  State. 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  am  sensible  that  I  have  occupied  too  much  time  in  these  illustra- 
tions:  but  I  was  anxious,  at  the  threshold  of  the  discussion,  to  withdraw  from  gen- 
tlemen on  the  other  side,  the  authority  to  turn  upon  us  the  reasoning  we  condemn  in 
them.  I  know  it  would  be  easy  to  show,  that  if  the  principle  contained  in  the 
amendment,  were  to  be  applied  at  all  times  and  in  all  circumstances,  such  an  appli- 
cation of  it  would  sacrifice  the  main  principles  to  an  antagonist  and  subordinate  one. 

We  renounce  such  a  course.  When  we  are  called,  not  to  sum  up  figures,  but  to 
ascertain  the  existing  state  of  society  5  to  take  the  measure  of  its  various  interests; 
to  collate  its  diversities ;  to  look  at  its  physical  aptitudes  as  a  source  of  other  diver- 
sities in  future  ;  1  never  will  consent  that  I  am  bound  to  carry  out  one  single  princi- 
ple beyond  the  necessity  which  is  imposed  by  considerations  of  practical  utility. 

It  is  always  useful  to  recur  to  fundamental  principles,  and  I  call  back  the  debate  to 
the  point  I  started  from,  v/hen  I  undertook  to  show,  that  the  argument  of  epithet  is 
assumed  gratuitously,  and  most  wantonly  applied  to  our  opinions. 

I  said  I  should  endeavor  to  prove,  from  the  concessions  of  gentlemen  directly,  or 
by  clear  implication,  that  the  epithets  employed  by  some  of  them  were  gratuitously 
assumed.  In  order  to  do  so,  let  us  fix  the  expression  of  this  paramount,  and  all-in- 
all  principle  of  theirs,  and  see  how  it  works  in  the  hands  of  those  who  attempt  to 
fetter  us  with  it.  Let  us  give  it,  if  not  the  precision,  at  least  the  terseness  of  a  ma- 
thematical proposition,  and  throw  it  into  a  syllogistic  form.  All  men  are  by  nature 
equal :  ergo,  all  men,  when  in  society,  should  enjoy  equal  portions  of  political  power. 
This  is  not  strictly  in  the  syllogistic  form.  It  wants  the  minor  proposition,  and  is 
what  the  logicians  call  an  enthymeme.  If,  as  gentlemen  contend,  this  be  the  sole 
and  all-sufficient  principle  in  the  construction  of  all  just  Government,  then  my  first 
remark  is,  tliat  the  world,  from  the  time  of  Solon  till  now,  has  been  under  a  great 
mistake.  It  has  been  the  idle  prejudice  of  civilized  man,  every  where,  to  suppose, 
that  a  Statesman  is  constituted,  not  by  the  conception  of  a  theme,  which  is  within 
the  comprehension  of  a  school-boy  in  his  first  form,  but  that  it  required  the  exercise 
of  the  higher  faculties  of  the  human  mind.  It  has  been  thought  till  now,  that  an 
able  Statesman  was  the  product  of  labour;  of  sagacious  and  v^^idely  extended  obser- 
vation ;  of  deep  research ;  of  clear  induction  from  the  treasm-es  of  experience  ;  of 
power  to  bring  within  its  grasp  the  whf>le  horizon  of  human  affairs,  and  laborious  ex- 
ercise of  that  power.  But  this,  it  seems,  has  been  a  mere  prejudice  5  it  must  have 
been  so,  if  the  gentlemen  are  correct  in  maintaining,  that  the  whole  business  of  a 
Statesman  is  to  understand  and  apply  their  propositions ;  and  that,  if  he  deviates  in 
the  slightest  degree  from  it,  he  sacrifices  that,  without  which,  he  must  lose  all  his 
force — I  mean  the  name  of  a  republican  :  a  cabalistic  word  brandished  by  the  dema- 
gogue at  the  hustings,  and  made  to  work  with  magic  force  in  the  columns  of  the 
public  prints.  Without  this,  whatever  his  wisdom  or  his  virtue,  he  is  ostracised  from 
public  trust.  The  channels  of  public  service  are  closed  against  him.  Sir,  this  is  a 
new  patent  mode  of  making  a  Statesman;  a  sort  of  labour-saving  machinery,  in 
which  they  are  made  with  a  celerity  that  nails  are  struck  in  a  factory,  and  requiring 
intellect  of  no  higher  order  to  construct  Governments,  than  that  which  computes  the 
weight  of  the  iron  or  the  number  of  nails  into  which  it  is  fabricated.  This  is  the 
first  consequence  which  follows  from  attempting;  to  give  simplicity  to  political  science, 
and  this  alone  is  enough  to  ensure  its  condemnation.  To  attempt  to  provide  for  all 
the  diversified  interests  of  a  mature  people  by  such  a  proposition,  is  the  height  of 
political  madness. 

There  is  another  value  in  this  political  theorem,  by  which  ail  Republican  Govern- 
ments are  made,  and  without  which  was  not  made  any  that  was  made.  A  theorem 
adapted  to  all  purposes,  it  requires  only  the  form  of  rules  of  arithmetic  to  put  into 
complete  operation  ;  addition  and  subtraction,  according  to  the  pretensions  of  some 
gentlemen,  as  we  have  seen  suffice  to  fix  the  principles  that  should  govern  this  body. 
The  other  two  rules,  multiplication  and  division,  suffice  to  reduce  them  to  practise  it. 

It  has  another  value.  It  is  the  grand  catholicon,  the  political  specific  to  make  new, 
and  repair  infirm  Constitutions.  It  also  serves  as  an  amulet  for  the  physicir.n  to  keep 
off  all  harms  from  former  political  transgressions,  and  those  who  profess  full  faith  in 
it,  shall  have  no  reckoning  to  make,  for  acts  and  opinions  of  passed  times.  In  these 
remarks  I  must  be  permitted  to  say,  that  I  have  iio  individual  in  view.    I  aim  them 


300 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


not.  They  are  the  suggestions  of  the  moment,  without  particular  reference  to  any 
one. 

Well,  Sir,  with  this  mathematico-political  theorem,  your  Statesman  goes  to  work ; 
and  the  moment  he  tries  to  put  it  in  practice,  the  case  categorical  becomes  a  case 
hypothetical.  All  men  are  possessed  by  nature  of  equal  rights,  ergo,  all  m.en  in  a 
state  of  society,  should  have  equal  portions  of  political  power;  if  they  are  not  women  ; 
if  they  are  not  under  twenty-one  years  of  age  ;  if  they  are  not  paupers  ;  if  they  are 
not  insane  ;  if  they  are  not  convicted  of  crime  ;  limitations  which  1  believe  are  con- 
ceded by  the  most  thorough-going  supporter  of  this  new  patent  for  Republicanism  on 
the  simple  specification,  before  stated,  though  he  may  have  no  other  title  to  that  de- 
signation. 

As  he  advances,  his  case  categorical  becomes  more  hypothetical.  Yes,  Sir,  much 
more  so.  Look  at  the  report  ot  the  Legislative  Connnittee,  and  look  at  the  other  hy- 
pothesis by  which  it  limits  this  grand  theorem,  for  making  a  Republican  Government. 
You  find  they  have  if's  in  abundance  ;  if  he  owns  land  ;  if  it  is  so  many  acres;  if  it 
is  of  such  value;  if  he  is  a  house-keeper;  if  he  has  paid  taxes;  if  he  resides  in  the 
State ;  if  he  has  resided  in  the  county  so  many  years ;  if  he  owns  an  estate  in  rever- 
sion ;  and  so  before  he  gets  to  work,  he  will  have  stricken  from  the  numbers  of  the 
people,  a  mass  equal  to  two-thirds  of  the  whole — and  then  these  gentlemen  bring  their 
doctrines  to  this ;  all  men  in  a  particular  predicament  have  equal  political  rights,  and 
What  that  predicament  is,  we  (the  patentees)  are  to  prescribe — all  beyond  the  line  we 
lay  down,  is  damnable  Heresy;  all  within  the  line  is  Catholic  and  orthodox.  But, 
why  exclude  any  ?  Reason,  say  they,  instructs  us,  that  children,  who  have  minds  not 
matured,  cannot  vote  undei standingly  ;  and  the  law  declares  that  all  under  twenty- 
one,  are  to  be  viewed  as  children  ;  and  our  feelings  tell  us,  that  the  sex  ought  not  to 
contaminate  its  purity,  by  the  pollutions  of  a  political  canvass.  Very  well,  this  is  all 
fair.  But,  why  make  your  op^iuions  the  standard  ?  Wliy  is  Republicanism  to  be  em- 
blazoned on  your  escutclieon,  notwithstanding  your  admission  of  tliese  modifications, 
and  denied  to  others,  who,  on  equally  sound  considerations,  v»'ould  make  or  admit 
other  modifications  ? 

The  gentleman  from  Brooke,  (the  Rev'd.  gentleman  from  Brooke,)  tells  us,  that 
those  who  do  not  choo.se  to  pass  all  the  way  on  his  straight  line,  (though  they  may 
think  it  leads  to  the  hell  of  anarchy,  not  to  the  heaven  of  peace,)  are  wholly  unphi- 
losophical,  and  are  acting  in  direct  opposition  to  all  the  established  ])rinciples  of  po- 
litical gravity.  I  fear  this  analogy  from  the  doctrine  of  gravity,  is  more  close  than 
that  from  his  mathematics.-  I  fear  that  the  downward  tendency  of  his  scheme  is  so 
strong,  as  to  put  in  requisition  all  the  wisdom,  prudence,  and  firmness  here  assembled 
to  arrest  its  career,  and  even  that,  that  may  be  unavailing. 

The  other  gentleman  from  Brooke,  sets  his  pipe  to  a  different  key,  and  his  tune  is, 
that  the  Government  is  oligarchical — a  plain  aristocracy — anti-republican,  and,  he 
says,  to  us  of  the  East,  you  are  insisting  on  your  right  to  make  us  your  political  slaves, 
in  order  that  you  may  keep  your  black  slaves  in  subjection. 

I  would  not  take  advantage  of  a  warm  expression  uttered  in  the  heat  of  debate, 
and  hold  the  gentleman  dov/n  to  the  literal  meaning  of  the  terms  he  employed,  but  I 
will  refer  it  to  himself,  whether  he  has  not  sacrificed  justness  of  sentiment  to  mere 
antithesis  of  expression  ;  whether  his  statement  is  not  an  exorbitant  exaggeration, 
and  his  charge  unwarranted  :  Whether  he  is  not  confronted  by  his  own  doctrine,  and 
if  so,  whether  candor  and  self-respect,  do  not  demand  that  he  shall  retract  his  words.'' 
Does  that  gentleman  mean  to  say  to  paupers  and  minors,  and  the  other  persons  he 
proposes  to  exclude  from  suffrage,  (for  he,  I  believe,  is  not  one  of  the  patentees,)  you 
are  slaves.''  You  are  bondsmen.-'  And  if  not,  will  he  predicate  slavery  of  all  those 
who  are  not  precisely  equal  in  power,  numerically  divided,  when  he  does  not  predi- 
cate it  of  those  who  have  none  at  all .'' 

Let  us,  then,  have  the  argument  disarmed  of  this  reproach,  that  our  present  Gov- 
ernment is  anti-republican  and  oligarchical. 

Let  us  come  to  the  issue  made  up  by  those  on  the  other  side,  who  have  forborne  to 
press  this  argument  of  epithet ;  for,  most  of  those  of  the  other  side,  have  themselves 
renounced  it.  The  question  then  is,  not  what  is  the  principle  which  every  true  Re- 
publican requires  in  constituting  a  Republican  Government,  but  first,  are  there  no 
principles  which  limit  it On  this  point  all  agree — most  of  the  gentlemen  on  the 
other  side  admit,  that  with  perfect  consistency  with  R.epublican  principles,  the  very 
limitation  proposed  by  the  amendment  may  be  made,  and  that  whether  it  should  be 
made  in  this  particular  case,  is  a  question  of  expediency  to  be  decided  by  justly  weigh- 
ing all  the  considerations,  which  such  a  question  involves.  If  so,  then  secondly,  it 
is  a  mere  question  of  degree.  It  is  not  the  enquiry,  what  are  the  primary  principles  of 
Republicanism,  but  it  is  the  enquiry,  to  what  degree  other  and  antagonist  principles 
ought  to  arrest  the  march  of  this  primary  one. 

[Here,  upon  an  intimation  of  a  wish  that  the  Committee  should  now  rise,  Mr.  S. 
stated,  that  he  had  arrived  at  a  part  of  his  argument  where  it  could  be  interrupted 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONYEXTIOX. 


301 


without  affecting  its  conclusion,  and  gave  way  for  a  motion.  The  motion  was  made, 
and  the  Committee  rose  and  reported  progress,  and  tlie  House  thereupon  adjourned.] 


SATURDAY,  November  14,  lS-29. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  J>Ir. 
Hoerner  of  the  Catholic  Church. 

Mr.  Sta>"ard,  resumed  his  speech  in  support  of  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Green,  pro- 
posino-  the  mixed  basis  of  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates  : 

I  endeavoured  yesterday  to  show  from  the  reason  of  the  case  and  the  concessions 
of  my  opponents,  either  directly  or  by  fair  imphcation,  that  their  argument  of  epitliets 
was  unfounded,  and  that  the  epithets  they  have  attempted  to  fasten  to  the  doctrines 
maintained  by  me  and  my  coadjutors,  have  been  gratuitously  assumed,  and  wantonly 
applied  by  them. 

I  thought  that  I  satisfactorily  showed  from  both  sources,  that  the  question,  how  far 
the  general  principle,  insisted  on  as  the  sole  and  esclusive  rule  in  the  construction  of 
Republican  Government,  ought  to  be  carried,  was  a  question  of  degree  and  not  of 
principle  ;  and  that  what  we  have  to  determine  is,  at  what  point  that  principle  is  to 
be  intersected,  traversed,  and  modified  by  other  and  controlling  principles,  which  all 
must  admit  ought  to  be  consulted  in  adapting  a  Government  to  the  actual  state  of 
society. 

Permit  me  now  to  attempt  a  farther  illustration,  by  showing  what  must  be  done,  if 
they  shall  prevail  in  establishing  their  proposition,  either  in  the  form  in  v>-hich  it  has 
been  reported  by  the  Legislative  Committee,  or  according  to  the  gloss  which  has  been 
put  upon  it  by  the  gentleman  from  Augusta.  Their  elementary  proposition  is  this, 
that  as  all  men  are  by  nature  equal,  all  men  have  a  right  to  enjoy  equal  portions  of 
political  power ;  and  they  insist  that  this  must  be  carried  out,  or  there  is  no  such  thing 
as  a  Republic.  Now,  1  will  give  them  this  principle,  and  let  them  apply  it  to  a  m.a- 
ture  condition  of  society,  and  then  see  how  far  tliey  will  be  compelled  to  renounce 
some  portion  of  it.  In  the  nature  of  things,  to  the  obtention  of  the  desired  equality, 
you  must  have  given,  first,  the  mass  on  which  the  principle  is  to  operate,  as  a  divi- 
dend ;  then  the  o;iven  number  of  representatives  as  a  divisor  ;  and  applying  this  divi- 
sor to  this  dividend,  the  quotient  will  be  the  number  of  individuals  to  be  represented 
by  each  Delegate.  Then  you  come  to  the  existing  society — and  you  find  dividing 
lines  all  over  the  State,  which  have  existed,  some  of  them,  for  two  hundred  years, 
and  the  population  scattered  in  unequal  masses  witliin  these  hues.  The  number 
which  your  quotient  indicates  for  one  representative  is.  of  course,  an  unvarying  quan- 
tity— while  the  numbers  to  which  it  is  to  be  applied,  are  all  variable.  One  county 
contains  three  thousand  free  whites — another  county  eight  thousand — and  your  quo- 
tient is  five  thousand — what  are  you  to  do  ^  Must  you  break  up  the  county  lines  ? 
Must  you  add  one  county  to  another  and  sub-divide  for  the  average  Is  this  to  be 
your  process .''  Is  such  a  process  practicable  The  gentleman  from  Augusta,  I  am 
sure,  does  not  look  to  such  a  process ;  none  of  the  gentlemen  avow  themselves  in 
favour  of  it.  It  would  be  cutting  up  not  one,  nor  two,  nor  three  of  your  counties; 
but  every  existing  partition  of  the  State — every  one — without  exception.  All  the 
present  lines,  all  of  them,  must  be  obliterated.  And  even  when  you  shall  have  been 
reconciled  to  this,  by  any  practical  process  to  cut  off  and  to  define  the  several  portions 
to  be  taken  from  one  and  added  to  another,  so  as  to  produce  perfect  equality  between 
the  counties  or  districts,  is  beyond  the  power  of  man. 

If  the  principle  cannot  be  thus  applied,  what  is  to  be  done  "What  must  be  its  ef- 
fect in  practice  ?  Here  you  have  one  county  containing  tln-ee  thousand  inhabitants, 
and  another  containing  eight  thousand  ;  while  your  invariable  divisor  is  five  thousand. 
^Vill  you  give  the  former  of  these  counties  a  representative  Suppose  you  do  :  and 
what  will  you  allow  to  the  second Not  any  more  :  but  say,  you  give  it  two — yet  I 
apprehend  you  would  not  give  two  to  a  county  containing  six  or  seven  thousand. 
And  what  then Why  then,  a  county  containing  eight  thousand,  will  have  two  re- 
presentatives, while  a  county  containing  six  er  seven  thousand,  will  have  one  repre- 
sentative :  and  this  is  their  exact  mathematical  proportion  !  It  turns  out  in  practice 
so  variant  and  unequal,  that  eight  gives  two,  and  seven  one,  and  three  as  many  as 
seven. 

I  shall  not  pursue  this  view  of  the  subject  farther :  there  can  be  no  necessity  of 
pushing  it  to  other  obvious  consequences  before  this  xAiSsembly. 

My  next  voucher  for  clearing  away  the  incumbrances  to  our  title  to  Republicanism, 
is  the  Constitution  of  this  State — which  shows  the  principle  embodied  and  in  a  concrete 
form,  and  in  that  form  consecrated  by  an  authority  which  gentlemen  invoke  to  their 
aid  and  then  disparage.    They  all  eulogize  in  tlie  most  exalted  strains,  the  wisdom, 


302 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


the  virtue,  the  patriotism  of  our  ancestors,  and  yet  they  endeavour  to  make  their  prin- 
ciples condemn  their  own  work.  Their  patriotism,  their  virtue,  their  wisdom,  their 
intelligence,  are  all  set  forth  in  order  the  more  to  consecrate  the  principles  they  laid 
down ;  but  all  these  cannot  mitigate  the  sentence  of  condemnation  which  is  pro- 
nounced upon  their  labours,  and  on  the  structure  which  they  themselves  reared  on 
these  very  principles. 

But,  the  gentlemen  have  a  salvo  for  discrediting  at  one  time  an  authority  which 
they  cry  up  as  irrefragable  and  infallible  in  every  respect  in  which  they  want  to  make 
use  of  it;  and  that  is,  that  while  the  principles  they  laid  down  are  the  result  of  ma- 
ture reflection,  the  happy  inductions  of  sagacious  minds,  from  an  extended  view  of 
past  times,  all  these  qualities  were  dissolved  and  dissipated  by  the  hurry  and  alarm  in 
which  they  constructed  their  work.  That  assumption  has  been  shown  to  be  incon- 
sistent with  historical  facts. 

They  o-o  in  pursuit  of  some  pretext,  on  which  to  discredit  their  own  authority.  It 
is  catholic,  as  far  as  they  choose  to  use  it,  and  heretical,  just  as  far  as  they  wish  to 
reject  it.  They  indulged  themselves  in  an  elaborate  examination  of  analogous  pro- 
visions in  the  Constitutions  of  our  sister  States. 

The  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  in  particular,  presented  us  with  a  most  elaborate 
and  extensive  analj^sis,  on  this  subject — all  with  a  view  to  maintain  the  authority  of 
the  Bill  of  Rights,  and  to  repudiate  that  of  the  Constitution. 

To  give  the  more  emphasis  to  these  precedents,  it  pleased  that  gentleman  not  only 
to  bring,  before  us,  in  detail,  various  Bills  of  R-ights,  adopted  in  dilFerent  parts  of  the 
Union,  but  to  apprize  the  Committee,  with  more  than  usual  solemnity,  that  these 
were  not  the  work  of  men,  intimidated  by  the  presence  of  an  enemy  at  their  doors,  and 
by  the  roar  of  hostile  cannon,  but  the  mature  results  of  profound  and  tranquil  inves- 
tigation, when  peace  was  in  all  our  borders,  and  their  authors  enjoyed  the  advantage 
of  the  experience  of  the  revolution,  and  the  councils  of  many  of  the  master  spirits 
of  that  epoch.  All  these  things  were  brought  in  solemn  array,  and  for  what  purpose  ? 
To  cast  discredit  on  the  work  of  our  progenitors.  But,  surely,  the  evil  genius  of 
the  gentleman  from  Loudoun  must  have  been  presiding,  when  he  was  allured  to 
adopt  this  course. 

Most  unfortunately,  the  very  circumstances,  he  so  confidently  relies  on,  when  col- 
lated together,  and  not  presented  in  detached  fragments,  torn  from  their  context,  but 
compared  with  the  work  of  the  same  men,  in  framing  the  Constitutions  of  the  States, 
furnish  an  irrefragable  argument  against  his  pretensions. 

In  every -one  of  the  States,  noticed  by  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  aye,  in  every 
one  of  them,  without  a  single  exception,  (unless  it  be  that  modern  scheme  of  repre- 
sentative Government,  with  which  the  State  of  New  York  has  favored  the  world,) 
the  work  and  structure  of  those  very  sages,  with  all  their  advantages  of  mature  ex- 
perience, and  tranquil  times,  and  deliberate  investigation,  show,  most  convincingly, 
the  utter  fallacy  of  the  pretensions  he  upholds. 

The  Constitution  of  Massachusetts,  of  New  Hampshire,  of  Maine,  of  Connecticut, 
of  Vermont — all  show,  that  this  political  dogma,  in  its  adaption  to  a  mature  society, 
with  interests  far  advanced,  and  long  established — this  idea  of  carving  and  cutting 
out  the  mass  of  society,  so  as  to  assign  to  each  man  an  equal  portion  of  political  pow- 
er, has  not  been  attempted  by  them  :  and  notwithstanding  all  the  facilities,  which  the 
condition  of  some  of  these  States,  in  respect  to  their  locahties,  municipal  arrange- 
ments, and  state  of  society,  afforded  for  the  application  of  this  principle  of  equality, 
having  regard  to  naked  principles  only,  it  has  been  disregarded  in  one  branch  of  their 
Legislature,  and  traversed  by  greater  and  stronger  checks  in  the  other  branch,  than 
any  we  propose  to  adopt.  Let  me  tell  him  too,  that  though  the  feature  does  not  now 
appear  in  the  Constitution  of  Pennsylvania ,  yet  if  he  will  look  into  the  proceedings 
of  the  Convention  which  formed  it,  he  will  find,  that  even  in  that  State,  homogene- 
ous as  it  is  in  population,  and  uniform  as  it  is  in  almost  all  its  interests — in  that  Con- 
vention, containing  some  of  the  master-spirits  of  the  revolution,  and  the  standard  re- 
publicans of  the  day,  it  was  proposed  to  introduce  the  same  hmitation  in  the  Senate 
of  that  State,  which  we  propose,  by  basing  representation,  not  upon  the  number  of 
the  taxable  inhabitants  only,  but  upon  a  ratio  deduced  from  a  combination  of  taxation 
and  numbers  of  taxable  inhabitants. 

But  is  it  not  a  little  remarkable,  that  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  after  going  into 
such  an  elaborate  investigation  of  the  Constitution  and  Bill  of  Rights,  of  other  States 
in  this  Union,  should  all  at  once  have  stopped,  at  that  precise  point,  when  he  would 
have  come  in  contact  with  States,  whose  interest  and  situation,  in  respect  to  popula- 
tion, are  analogous  to  ours.?  North  Carolina,  South  Carolina,  Georgia,  and  Tennes- 
see, are  all  kept  carefully  out  of  view.  They  probably  do  not  deserve  enquiry,  pre- 
cisely for  the  very  reason  which,  of  all  others,  ought  to  recommend  their  example  to 
us,  viz:  a  conformity  of  their  interests  to  ours,  and  the  claim  of  those  interests,  to 
the  modifications  in  their  political  institutions,  which  we  propose  in  ours. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION, 


303 


My  next  voucher  is  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States.  Yes,  Sir,  the  Consti- 
tution of  the  United  States.  And  here,  it  pleased  the  gentleman  Irom  Loudoun,  (I 
speak,  of  course,  of  the  tendency  of  his  remarks.)  to  disparage  that  instrument,  and 
the  eminent  men  who  recommended  it  to  the  adoption  of  tiie  American  people,  by 
holding  up  that  series  of  papers,  v/hich  i  have  so  oiten  heard  gentlemen  on  this  floor 
refer  to  as  contauiing  the  arlicles  of- their  political  creed,  (I  speak  of  the  Federahst,) 
as  obnoxious  to  the  criticism,  that  the  arguments  in  one  part  of  it  directly  traverse 
and  contradict  those  used  in  another  part.  It  gave  me  some  surprise,  I  confess,  from 
the  known  sagacity  of  that  gentleman,  that  he  had  not  found  a  solution  for  the  appa- 
rent contradiction  to  which  he  alluded ;  that  he  had  not  discovered  the  means  by 
which  he  at  once  would  solve  it  completely ;  that  he  did  not,  as  the  authors  of  that 
work  had  done,  discard  from  his  mind  the  influence  of  one  dominant  principle,  aiid 
allow  the  antagonist  principles  then  proper  place  and  effect  in  controlling  it. 

That  would^have  explained  all  the  seeming  contrariety.  It  is  worthy  of  remark, 
that  in  his  zeal  to  sustain  his  proposition,  not  merely  as  a  means,  but  with  a  steady 
gaze  towards  the  end,  he  added  to  the  principles  of  the  Bill  of  Ptights,  the  doctrine  in 
one  of  those  papers  which  regards  numbers  as  one  of  the  elements  of  power,  and  ex- 
ultingly  referred  to  it — and  yet  the  very  work  furnishes  direct  condemnation  of  the 
use  he  proposes  to  make  of  it,  that  is,  to  show  that  numbers  form  the  sole  element  of 
power. 

What  is  the  character  of  the  Government  of  the  United  States  ?  It  is  not  a  full 
and  plenary  Government  for  all  purposes  ;  but  it  is  a  complete  political  entity,  for  the 
purposes  of  conducting  the  foreign  relations  of  the  United  States,  and  as  be:  ween 
the  States  of  the  same  confederacy  to  settle  their  diiierences  as  memijers  of  that  con- 
federacy. It  is  shorn  of  all  power  to  interfere  with  the  municipal  regulations  of  the 
States  j  but  its  limitation  to  our  foreign  relations,  does  not  change  its  classitication. 
It  does  not  cease  to  be  republican,  because  it  refers  to  external  concerns  onlj- ;  j-et  it 
is,  in  effect,  contended  that  the  same  Government,  if  applied  to  our  internal  concerns, 
is  aristocratic  and  oligarchical.  Surely,  the  limitation  of  the  uses  of  its  power  does 
not  qualify  or  change  the  designation  of  the  Government  itself  3  and  if  a  Govern-  _ 
ment  is  republican,  when  charged  v\-ith  a  part  of  our  concerns,  it  does  not  cease  to  be 
republican,  if  charged  with  the  whole  of  our  concerns  as  one  people. 

iVow,  look  at  the  principles  which  enter  into  the  Constitution  of  that  Government. 
The  Federal  Government  is  a  Government  formed  by  an  association  of  sovereigns  ; 
the  Governments  of  the  several  States  b}^  associations  of  individuals.  i>cw,  it  hap- 
pens in  respect  to  States,  that  the  principle  of  their  equality  is  not  admitted  by  us 
only,  but  b}'  all  Christendom  :  all  civihzed  people  admit  equality  of  States.  Wlie'ther 
their  Governments  be  republican  or  monarchical — whether  political  power  be  exer- 
cised by  the  people  in  person,  or  by  their  representatives,  or  by  the  aui<x-rat  Uj>on  his 
throne,  none  are  denied  equality  among  themselves.  But  the  equality  of  individuals 
has  not  the  same  force  of  authority  :  that  is  denied  by  all  the  rest  of  Christendom. 
States  are  artificial  entities — they  are  political  corporations,  and  v.-ith  us  thej-  are  as- 
sociated to  form  a  Government,  just  as  individual  men  would  associate  for  the  same 
purpose.  Their  primitive  equality  is  confessed  ;  none  dispute  it ;  3'^et  how  are  these 
equals  dealt  with  in  the  details  of  the  Federal  Government  ?  Looking,  indeed,  to  one 
of  the  departments  of  that  Government,  we  find  their  equality  preserved  strictlj- ;  but 
if  we  look  to  other  departments  of  it,  we  shall  find,  that  other  considerations  have 
supervened;  which  political  considerations  required  to  be  weighed,  and  due  allow- 
ance to  be  made  for,  in  order  to  effect  the  great  end  of  Government,  viz  :  the  protec- 
tion of  all.  In  other  departments,  these  entities  are  treated  not  as  integral,  but  as  re- 
presenting different  masses  of  population  ;  and  povrer  is  allowed  them  accordinjr  to 
the  proportion  of  those  masses  to  each  other  ;  while,  in  a  third  branch  of  the  Govern- 
ment, we  find  a  compound  principle  made  up  of  both  combined.  The  Executive 
branch  is  the  progeny  of  an  union  of  these  principles.  There  is  an  equalit37  of  tlie 
parties  in  one  sense,  and  there  is  a  difference  of  povver  in.  another  ;  yet  is  not  this  a 
flepublican  Government.?  Will  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun.  (^Ir.  jMercer,)  or  the 
gentleman  from  Brooke,  (Mr.  Doddridge)  pronounce  their  anathema  against  it  as  an 
aristocracy,  or  an  oligarchy  ?  Look  at  the  modification  of  the  principle.  In  order  to 
fix  the  relative  dimensions  of  entities  which  are  equal  in  one  sense,  one  part  of  the 
population  is  allowed  a  value  according  to  its  numbers,  and  the  other  accordino-  to  a 
certain  proportion  of  its  numbers. 

Well,  Sir,  has  this  changed  it  into  any  other  than  a  Republican  Government.'  It 
is  said,  that  tliis  arrangement  was  the  result  of  a  compromise.  Admittimr  this,  I  de- 
mand to  know,  whether  all  compromises  are  not  the  fruit  of  a  modification  of  anta- 
gonist principles.?  Are  they  made  by  mere  guess,  in  a  manner  perfectly  arbitrary  .? 
Have  they  no  principles  to  guide  them  .?  Or  is  not  the  compromise  to  fix  the  precise 
point  where  antagonist  principles  intersect  each  other,  so  as  to  give  to  both  their  due 
operation  ? 


304 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


I  refer  to  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  not  merely  to  vindicate  our  scheme 
from  the  stigma  which  is  attempted  to  be  fixed  upon  it,  but  for  another,  and  a  more 
important  purpose.  That  Government  has  been  referred  to,  not  only  as  an  example 
to  show  tlie  consideration  of  all  population,  bond  and  free,  in  the  apportionment  of 
political  power,  bxit  because  of  its  influence  on  this  State,  as  a  member  of  the 
confederacy,  and  subject  to  that  Government ;  a  Government,  charged  with  the  ex- 
ternal relations  of  this,  and  the  other  States.  In  that  Government,  all  the  inhabi- 
tants of  tiie  Union  are  taken  into  account  :  from  which  arrangement,  a  large  portion 
of  the  weight  of  this  State  in  it,  is  derived.  Expel  that  principle  from  the  Constitu- 
tion, and  you  at  once  contract  the  State  of  Virginia.  You  bereave  it  of  one-third  of 
its  political  dimensions,  in  its  connexion  with  a  Government,  which  in  various  forms 
exercises  a  more  powerful  sway  over  all  the  States,  than  is  equal  in  amount  to  all  the 
residuary  power  left  in  their  possession.  When  the  other  States  were  called  upon  by 
the  Souih  to  make  the  compromise,  the  same  arguments,  now  so  strenuously  urged, 
were  at  hand  to  resist  the  claim.  The  arguments  were  heard  :  they  were  profoundly 
considered.  They  were  v/eighed  with  all  the  temper,  deliberation  and  sagacity  which 
that  eminent  body  could  bestow.  That  body  did  not  find  the  allowance  of  this  claim 
an  insuperable  obstacle  ;  nor  did  they  consider  it  as  fixing  upon  the  Government  the 
stigma  of  anti-republicanism.  It  is  found  in  the  Constitution.  The  principle  has 
been  questioned  since.  Its  influence  on  the  pending  question,  direct  and  incidental, 
has  been  urged  on  this  House,  by  my  friend  from  Chesterfield,  with  a  force  and  elo- 
quence which  I  cannot  pretend  to  emulate.  His  argument  had  been  anticipated  by 
one  gentleman,  and  it  has  been  attempted  to  be  answered  by  two  others.  In  one  of 
its  members,  it  has  been  evaded  and  it  has  been  entirely  iinnoticed  in  the  other.  The 
argument  is  this  :  If  this  assembly  pronounce,  that  the  infusion  of  this  principle  con- 
verts any  Government  from  a  republic  to  an  aristocracy,  can  you  consistently, 
when  that  declaration  shall  be  invoked  against  you,  refuse  to  abide  by  your  own  de- 
cree You  must  consent  either  to  exhibit  an  open,  undisguised,  and  glaring  incon- 
sistency, or  you  must  surrender  your  rights  so  soon  as  you  are  confronted  by  your 
own  declaration.  The  argument  goes  still  further,  if  you  countenance  and  sustain 
this  pretension,  may  you  not  expect  that  that  will  be  attempted,  which  has  already 
many  political  converts,  though  it  has  not  yet  been  attempted  in  the  Legislature  It 
has,  I  say,  many  warm  advocates,  viz  :  that  this  power  is  a  State  acquisition,  and  like  its 
Literary  Fund,  ought  to  be  made  common  property,  and  distributed  to  all  parts  of  the 
State,  according  to  the  ratio  of  white  population.  Sir,  is  this  a  mere  gratuitous  sug- 
gestion, thrown  out  for  the  purpose  of  alarming  this  Assembly  .and  having  no  foundation 
in  fact Will  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  and  the  gentleman  from  Brooke  reply? 
Will  they  stand  up  m  the  face  of  this  Assembly,  and  say  that  such  a  doctrine  has  not 
been  gravely  insisted  on  heretofore  ?  I  mean,  urged  as  a  matter  of  political  specula- 
tion among  others,  to  show  that  the  interests  of  the  'West  have  been  sacrificed.?  I 
bear  testimony  to  the  fact,  that  it  has  been  so  urged. 

[Mr.  Mercer  here  rose  and  said,  that  he  had  never  heard  such  an  idea  broached 
either  in  or  out  of  the  House  of  Delegates.] 

Sir,  I  did  myself  hear  it  urged  on  this  floor  at  the  time  when  the  distribution  of  the 
Literary  Fund  was  discussed  in  the  Legislature. 

[Mr.  Doddridge  here  enquired  to  what  distribution  of  the  Literary  Fund,  does  the 
gentleman  allude  ^1 

I  allude  to  the  distribution  of  it,  among  the  comities  of  the  State,  according  to  the 
numbers  of  w^hite  population  in  thejn  respectively. 

[  Mr.  Doddridge  then  said,  on  tliat  occasion,  the  member  from  Brooke  was  not  pre- 
sent. ] 

If  the  gentleman  from  Brooke  was  not,  another  gentleman,  who  is  a  conspicuous 
member  of  this  House,  was  present.  It  was  said,  on  that  occ  asion,  that  the  people  of 
the  West  had  been  injured  by  the  unequal  distribution  of  this  power  acquh-ed  in  the 
General  Government,  and  claimed  as  the  common  property  of  all  the  white  inhabi- 
tants of  the  State;  and  one  injury  ought  not  to  be  made  the  foundation  of  another. 
But,  Sir,  the  suggestion  will  have  at  least  this  value.  I  propound  the  question  now. 
I  desire  to  havelhe  disavowal  of  the  claim  to  an  apportionment  of  the  Congressional 
representation  according  to  the  numbers  of  free  white  population,  now  under  bond, 
sealed  and  dehvered  :  Is  this  claim  now  disavowed.?  Am  I  to  understand  that  it  is 
disavowed  by  the  gentlemen  .?  If  so,  I  have  their  own  authority  against  that  doctrine 
in  future.    If  not,  the  argument  is  left  in  its  full  force. 

I  said,  that  the  other  part  of  the  argument  had  been  evaded.  Its  spirit  has  not 
been  met.  How  has  it  been  eluded  ?  The  gentleman  from  Albemarle  made  an  ar- 
gument, which  implied  that  he  did  not  approve  of,  or  justify  the  provision  of  the 
Constitution  of  the  United  States.  I  do  not  say,  that  he  expressly  condemned  that 
provision,  or  renounced  the  claim,  to  apportion  our  representation  in  Congress,  on 
what  is  called  the  Federal  numbers,  or  that  he  explicitly  declared  what  his  sentiments 
were }  but  he  certainly  did  renounce  it  by  implication.    An  explanation  was  drawn 


DEBATES    OF    THE  CONVENTION. 


305 


from  him,  which  amounted  to  this,  that  wise  men  had  doubted  the  propriety  of  this 
provision  of  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States.  Surely  the  gentleman  did  not 
wish  me  to  suppose  that  he  did  iiot  thick  so,  because  wise  men  did  think  so.  I, 
therefore,  say,  as  the  case  now  stands  bef  .re  the  Committee  

[Here  3Ir.  Gordon  asked  laare  to  explain.  He  said  he  was  sorry  to  have  opinions 
imputed  to  him  which  he  had  not  expressed.  He  had  said  that  the  propriety  of  tlie 
provision  had  been  doubted  by  wise  men.  and  that  he  should  be  of  the  same  opinion, 
if  it  was  to  be  made  the  basis  of  an  aristocratic  system  of  Government  for  Virginia. 
That  was  still  his  opinion.  ] 

Sir,  the  gentleman  is  perfectly  correct ;  and  I  represented  him  to  have  said  what  in 
explanation  he  avows  he  said.  He  did  say  that  wise  men  had  so  doubted,  but  he  did 
not  express  his  own  opinion  further,  than  he  should  be  opposed  to  the  principle  when 
made  to  exceed  its  function  in  the  Government  of  the  United  States.  We  are  left 
still  in  uncertainty  as  to  what  the  gentleman  thinks  of  tlie  direct  operation  of  the 
Federal  Constitution  in  tliis  part  of  it.  How  was  the  argument  pressed  by  my  friend 
from  Chesterfield  He  said  to  us,  will  you  treat  the  principle  on  which  rests  a  large 
portion  of  our  power  in  the  Federal  Government,  as  if  it  would,  being  introduced 
into  our  own  Government,  contaminate  it  with  aristocracy  ?  and  will  you  deny  that  it  has 
the  same  influence  in  the  other  case.'  If  you  think  so,  then  you  are  prepared,  when- 
ever the  claim  shall  be  made  by  the  iXortliern  States,  to  have  that  principle  in  the 
Federal  Constitution  abolisiied,  or  to  own  that  we  retain  in  it,  this  taint  of  aristocra- 
cy, because  it  serves  our  interests.  This  was  his  aroument.  And  what  answer  was 
vouchsafed  by  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  (3Ir.  iMercer  ?)  This:  Tou  have  the 
power  in  your  hands,  and  can  keep  it — it  can  never  be  surrendered  but  by  your  own 
consent — your  sic  zolo.  And  is  that  an  answer  to  the  argument.^  Is  that  an  answer 
to  the  enquiry,  are  you  prepared  to  follow  out  your  own  principles,  when  the  like 
appeal  shall  be  made  to  you  fro;a  another  quarter  ?  They  say  not  one  word  to  that. 
Respect  for  the  gentlemen  compels  me  to  say,  that  whtu  the  claim  shall  be  urged, 
they  will  surrender. 

What,  then,  is  the  result  on  this  branch  of  the  argument?  I  wish  I  could  express 
it  v.-ith  more  force  and  precision.  It  is  this :  We  maintam  in  its  full  spirit  and  ex- 
tent, and  say  that  it  ought  to  be  so  maintained — the  vrhole  principle  in  the  Bill  of 
Rights — as  an  es-ential  incrredient  in  all  Republican  Government;  nav.  as  being  so 
sacred  that  a  Government,  where  it  is  not  paramount,  ceases  to  merit  the  epithet  of 
Republican  :  but  that  that  principle,  (dear  as  it  is — and  it  is  dear  to  me — as  giving  to 
the  whole  mass,  its  flavor,  relish,  and  nutritive  quality,)  is  not  to  be  taken  separately 
and  uncombined  with  other  principles  :  That  it  is  liable  in  its  application,  to  be 
checked,  controlled  and  modified  by  other  principles,  which  make  it  sanative  and  sa- 
lutary :  and  that  the  idea  of  o:iving;  to  each  and  every  man  in  the  community  equal 
portions  of  political  power,  is  so  far  from  beino'  effected  by  counting  numbers  only, 
(disregarding  their  combinations,)  that  that  will  be  the  very  means  by  v»"hich  it  must 
certainly  be  frustrated — and  that  the  gentlemen,  who  are  contending  so  strenuously, 
for  the  simple,  naked,  unmodified  principle,  will  find,  when  it  is  reduced  to  practice, 
that  it  produces  the  very  results  which  it  is  their  avowed  purpose  to  avoid. 

And  now,  let  me  ask  my  hiohly  esteemed  friend  from  Augusta,  whether,  in  these 
sentiments,  he  can  find  anv  warrant  for  sa3'ing  that  the  friends  of  the  amendment 
cast  ridicule  upon  the  Bill  of  R.;ghts  ?  and  overthrow  the  very  f<  undations  of  Govern- 
ment in  their  eager  grasp  for  power  and  whether  a  more  dispassionate  consideration 
ought  not  to  exact  from  hira  the  avowal  that  these  imputations  were  hasty,  and  are 
not  merited  Let  us  not  be  misunderstood.  It  may  occur  to  some,  tliat  I  have  been 
anxious  to  make  this  vindication  of  the  amendmt-nt,  not  only  for  the  sake  of  my 
constituents,  but  that  regard  to  self  has  had  much  sway  in  promptino-  the  effort. 
Not  so.  iiSot  so.  DifferincT  as  I  do.  irom  the  gentleman  frr  m  Loudrun,  in  his  opinions, 
I  must  also  dissent  from  some  of  his  sentiments.  And  though  I  can  truly  avow  that 
self- vindication,  apart  from  the  important  interests  imnlicated  in  the  question  under 
discussion,  has  had  but  little  or  no  influence,  I  can  assure  that  gentleman,  that  /  am 
no  candidate  for  the  iMartyr"s  Crown.  He,  it  seems,  envies  the  distinction,  and  pants 
for  the  glory  of  martyrdom.  I  have  no  such  aspiration.  I  do  not  wish  to  expose 
myself  to  trials,  which  well  require  heroic  virtue  to  endure.  I  do  not  so  certainly 
know,  whether  mine  would  avail  me  in  the  hour  of  need;  I  am  sure  I  should  not 
better  bear  bv  rashly  courting  the  trial.  I  wish  not.  therefore,  to  tempt  myself  by 
making  the  experiment:  nor  can  I  consider  the  loss  of  popular  favour,  or  the  offices 
to  which  it  may  lead,  as  meritinu-  the  distinction  of  martyrdom.  No.  Sir.  Yet  I  do 
not  pretend  to  that  stoical  insensibility  which  is  unr-onscious  of  the  glow  which  pub- 
lic approbation  imparts  to  the  bosom.  I  am  not  insensible  to  popular  applause,  nor 
would  I  depreciate  the  value  of  popular  favour.  But  that  favour  only  which  is  spon- 
taneous, -and  which  is  the  best  test  of  public  approbation,  is  the  object  of  my  ambi- 
tion. I  value  not  that  which  is  gained  as  a  charitable  dole,  reluctantly  bestowed  on 
importunate  solicitation — not  that  which  is  retained  by  the  pliancy,  which  looking  with « 


305 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CON\^EMTION. 


steady  eye  at  the  signs  of  the  political  Zodiac,  conforms  to  the  horoscope  it  there 
finds.  I  thank  God  I  have  so  regulated  my  desires,  that  a  very  small  portion  of  my 
happiness  depends  on  such  popular  favour,  or  on  the  acquisition  of  ofhce  ;  and  if  for 
the  opinions  1  on  this  occasion  avow  and  maintain,  I  shall  be  stricken  frorn  the  ranks 
of  those  on  whom  the  rays  of  popular  favour  may  or  is  to  beam,  .1  shall  more  deplore 
the  infatuation  which  directs  the  blow,  than  suffer  pain  from  its  infliction. 

I  think  I  have  shown  that  the  question  before  us  is  now  reduced  to  this  :  whether, 
on  a  full  and  fair  survey  of  the  actual  condition  of  the  Commonwealth  ;  its  past  his- 
tory;  its  existing  and  multiform  interests;  its  connexion  with  the  Federal  Govern- 
ment; and  primarily,  and  above  all,  the  peculiar  location  of  one  peculiar  and  impor- 
tant species  of  its  property — any  thing  is  due  to  those  inductions,  which  can  be  fairly 
made  from  this  survey,  that  ought  to  control  or  limit  the  sway  of  the  (confessedly) 
primary  principle  of  Republican  Government  ? 

The  right  in  some  form  to  the  power  we  claim,  has  not  been  seriously  questioned. 
The  objection  is,  not  that  this  power  may  not  properly  be  conceded ;  but  that,  in  the 
concession  of  this,  we  get  a  power  beyond  the  necessity  of  the  case  on  which  we 
found  our  claim  :  not  merely  enough  to  protect  this  interest,  but  over  persons  and  rights 
of  a  different  kind.  I  mean  not  to  enter  at  large  on  this  argument.  I  could  not  do 
so,  witliout  bringing  again  before  the  Committee,  many  of  those  very  able  views 
which  have  already  been  much  better  presented  by  others. 

Let  me  again  call  the  attention  of  the  Committee  to  the  examples  of  other  States^ 
as  being  persuasive,  if  not  irresistible,  in  this  matter.  I  also  call  gentlemen's  atten- 
tion to  the  nature  of  the  interest,  and  will  endeavor  to  show  what  has  not  been  dis- 
tinctly unfolded  by  my  coadjutors — that  there  is  some  object  ulterior  to  that  of  pro- 
tection against  unjust  taxation,  which  justifies  the  claim  we  advance.  If  in  States, 
homogeneous  in  their  population,  and  vniiform  in  their  condition,  it  has  been  found 
necessary  to  interpose  a  check  either  in  the  Senate,  or  by  an  apportionment  of  power 
to  masses,  so  arranged  as  to  control  the  power  of  mere  imnibers,  is  not  the  necessity 
enhanced  incalculably,  when  we  refer  to  the  influence  of  this  consideration  in  our 
own  State Do  we  claim  protection  for  property  only  as  such  ?  The  property  we 
seek  to  protect,  not  mex'ely  serves  the  uses  of  man,  but  itself  supplies  the  place  of 
men.  Its  value  does  not  consist  in  consumption — it  is  not  mere  brute  matter,  con- 
tributing to  the  comfort  and  ornament  of  life,  but  it  consists  of  intelligent,  sentient, 
responsible  beings,  that  have  passions  to  be  inflamed,  hearts  to  feel,  understandings 
to  be  enlightened,  and  who  are  capable  of  catching  the  flarne  of  enthusiasm,  from  the 
eloquent  effusions  of  agitators,  if  not  here,  at  least  in  other  parts  of  the  State  :  and 
who  may  not  only  be  lost  to  their  masters  as  property,  but  may  change  conditions^ 
and  become  masters  themselves ;  so  far,  at  least,  as  the  ravages  of  a  servile  war  shall 
have  any  subject  to  be  ruled  over.  These  are  the  dangers  which  necessarily  belong 
to  the  existence  of  this  species  of  property  within  our  borders.  Are  these  conside- 
rations to  have  no  weight  ?  Will  gentlemen  still  consider  our  slaves  as  mere  brute 
matter  ?  Will  they  shut  their  eyes  to  the  fact,  that  there  are  and  will  continue  to  be 
political  missionaries,  who,  with  malignant  purposes,  or  under  the  stimulation  of  a 
misguided  philanthropy,  industriously  spread  a  contagion  which  no  power  may  be 
able  to  arrest  ?  Shall  we  shut  our  eyes  and  ears  to  all  experience  .''  Nothing  is  so 
easily  propagated  as  such  enthusiasm,  when  it  comes  with  all  the  force  of  an  appa- 
rent respect  for  human  right,  and  a  spirit  of  general  philanthropy.  Sir,  is  this  the 
day  when  such  principles  will  not  be  propagated  ?  Are  the  people  of  the  South  so 
steady,  as  to  be  impregnably  shielded  against  the  sway  of  such  a  spirit  ?  Can  any 
gentleman  look  to  the  recent  history  of  this  country,  and  say  that  there  are  not  some 
feelings,  which,  under  the  impulse  of  enthusiasm,  may  pass  with  the  rapidity  of 
lightning  across  the  whole  extent  of  this  Union  ? 

Looking  to  this  subject,  let  me  be  permitted  to  state,  in  the  presence  of  this  audience, 
what  I  have  often  professed  before,  with  a  most  perfect  sincerity.  I  have  told  yon 
that  I  entertain  no  distrust  of  the  honour  and  sincerity  of  the  people  of  the  West ; 
and  further,  that  I  did  not  distrust  their  sons,  as  the  gentleman  from  Brooke  consid- 
ered the  gentleman  from  Northampton  to  have  done  :  and  feeling  this,  1  think  it  due 
to  the  candour  which  belongs  to  this  debate,  to  declare  my  full  and  entire  conviction ^ 
that  if  the  power  to  the  very  uttermost  of  their  claim,  shall  be  transfeiTed  to  the  peo- 
ple of  the  West,  their  sense  of  justice  will  restrain  them  from  wilfully  doing  the  open 
and  apparent  wrong  of  levying  unequal  taxes  on  this  species  of  property  to  the  ex- 
oneration of  property  of  a  different  kind.  I  do  not  believe  they  will  do  any  such 
thing.  There  is  not  to  be  found  in  this  land,  any  body  of  men  prepared  to  commit 
gross,  apparent  and  wanton  wrong.  Much  less  would  I  impute  such  a  purpose  to 
gentlemen  from  the  West,  some  of  whom,  I  am  glad  to  regard  as  personal  friends, 
and  all  of  whom,  I  hope,  will  long  continue  to  be  brethren  of  the  same  political  fami- 
ly. But,  will  this  honesty  be  any  guard  against  such  influence  as  I  have  described 
Sir,  I  dread  not  the  vices  of  my  brethren,  but  opinions  tliat  to  them  have  the  show  of 
virtue.    I  fear  not  their  meditated  wrong,  but  their  misguided  philanthropy. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


307 


I  extend  the  remark  to  the  exercise  of  the  taxing  power,  for  objects  in  which  we 
have  Httle  interest.  Do  I  apprehend  this  from  the  wantonness  of  power  and  the  reck- 
lessness of  rapacity  ?  I  disclaim  such  a  thought.  No,  Sir.  I  have  no  fears  of  their 
wilful  injustice.  I3ut,  is  there  any  safe-guard  against  delusion  on  this  subject  ?  Can 
I  shut  my  eyes  against  the  light  that  beams  from  all  experience,  and  shows  the  fa- 
cility of  persuading  men  that  they  are  in  the  line  of  duty  and  patriotism,  though  in- 
terest alone  stimulates  the  effort  and  sways  the  judgment  ?  And  on  such  occasions 
the  virtues  of  the  representative  stand  not  as  our  security,  but  as  the  very  source  of 
our  danger,  when  he  shall  think,  that  he  is  conforming  to  the  wishes  of  his  constitu- 
ents, and  cherishino-  the  interests  of  all.  I  may  say,  therefore,  without  much  violence 
'  to  gentlemen's  feelings,  that  if  there  are  any  dangers  arising  from  the  power  of  taxa- 
tion, they  are  to  be  resolved  into  no  distrust  of  their  integrit}^,  but  that  all  the  danger 
proceeds  from  the  different  views  and  different  interests  of  parts  and  the  whole  Com- 
monwealth, and  the  representative  virtue  of  cherishing  those  of  his  constituents. 

There  is  another  view  of  the  subject.  They  allow  that  we  are  entitled  to  some  se- 
curity, but  insist  that  the  form  in  v>diich  we  ask  it  extends  too  far,  and  enables  us  to 
inflict  the  very  injustice  on  them  in  other  respects  which  we  profess  to  fear  from  them 
on  this.  I  call  the  attention  of  gentlemen  to  the  different  functions  of  the  taxing 
power  as  in  one,  and  in  the  other  hand.  With  us  it  is  conservative  and  defensive 
merely.  We  do  not  seek  for  its  exercise  by  ourselves,  but  to  prevent  its  exercise  by 
others.  In  them,  the  danger  is  from  action — not  from  the  power's  being  fettered,  but 
from  its  being  left  free. 

I  admit  that  the  power,  if  given  us  for  our  protection,  exists  for  other  objects,  and 
may  be  used  for  personal  oppression.  But,  I  beg  leave  to  call  the  attention  of  gentle- 
men to  the  position  on  which  I  rest  the  argument — I  have  no  distrust  in  the  honour 
and  virtue  of  the  West — and  I  claim  the  same  confidence  as  due  to  the  East. — I  an^ 
ticipate  in  no  quarter  the  exercise  of  mere  arbitrarj'  power ;.  and  I  found  the  argu- 
ment on  that  very  principle  :  Their  security  is  that  which  is  furnished  by  considera- 
tions which  they  urge  in  vindication  of  the  West.  How  can  we  oppress  them  in 
their  personal  rights  without  affecting  all  parts  of  the  State  equally.?  unless  we  be 
guilty  of  an  open,  confessed,  naked  act  of  arbitrary  power?  How  can  any  Constitu- 
tion be  so  framed  as  to  guard  agairist  violence  and  arbitrary  power.''  I  turn  gentle- 
men's argument  against  themselves — If  any  part  of  the  Commonwealth  shall  have 
made  up  their  minds  to  face  the  opprobrium  of  such  conduct,  your  Constitution  and 
all  its  guards  cease  to  be  of  any  value.  No  matter  vvhere  power  is  by  constitutional 
regulation,  it  cannot  be  retained.  Resort  must  be  had  to  an  arbiter,  and  that  arbiter 
sweeps  your  Constitution  and  3'our  Republican  Government  together,  from  the  face 
of  the  land. 

And  here  let  me  notice  one  of  the  arguments  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta, 
(Mr.  Johnson.)  He  made  an  ominous  remark  which  I  have  not  forgotten.  He  said, 
that  "  if  we  of  the  East  had  no  slaves,  their  places  would  be  supplied  by  white  men." 
In  what  signification  did  he  make  tliis  remark?  Suppose  their  places  were  filled  by 
white  men  ?  Then  we  are  asking  nnich  less  tl^an  we  are  entitled  to. 

But.  their  places  are  not  supplied  by  v/hite  men.  What  then?  Are  you  to  form  a 
Constitution  as  if  they  were  not  here  ?  As  if  they  did  not  belong  to  the  Common-" 
wealth,  and  foraied  no  part  of  its  interests  ?  The  observation  shows,  either  that  we 
ask  less  than  is  our  due,  or  it  gives  cause  for  the  foreboding  that  the  new  Constitu- 
tion is  to  be  fashioned  as  if  slaves  were  mere  intruders  here,  to  whose  existence  no 
regard  is  to  be  given. 

Permit  me  to  make  another  observation.  I  told  you  that  in  looking  at  this  irnpor' 
tant  and  delicate  interest,  it  was  to  be  regarded  not  merely  as  a  subject  of  taxation, 
but  that  we  ought  to  look  steadily  on  all  the  dangers  which  surround  it.  Is  it  neces- 
sary for  me  to  tell  this  Assembly,  that  in  regard  to  these  interests,  respect  is  to  be 
had  to  legislation  which  affects  it  even  as  property  ?  That  a  wise  regard  to  interests 
and  feelings  of  the  Eastern  part  of  the  State,  present  an  irresistible  claim  on  our 
brethren  of  the  West,  not  to  push  their  theories  so  as  to  take  av/ay  from  us  tlie  power 
to  govern  our  slaves,  and  make  laws  of  police  for  them?  By  the  transit  of  power  to 
hands  not  acquainted  with  our  situation  and  dangers,  and  shielded  by  a  barrier  of 
mountains,  who  have  no  fears  to  sharpen  their  intellect  to  the  approach  of  evil,  and 
who  know  not  how  to  adapt  laws  to  tlie  wants,  the  condition,  the  feelings,  and  the 
passions  of  the  slaves  in  regard  to  those  who  retain  them  in  bondage,  interests,  not 
of  propert}^  merely,  but  of  life  itself,  are  implicated  ;  these,  and  all  their  dearest  cori-^ 
nexions. 

I  pass  with  much  pleasure  from  such  a  subject,  to  a  view  more  congenial  to  the 
spirit  in  which  I  entered  this  Convention.  Sir,  I  came  here  not  to  exasperate,  but 
to  soothe  the  asperities  of  other  minds  :  not  to  arrest  the  march  of  reform,  (as  far  as 
reform  ought  to  be  allowed  to  go,)- but  to  enter  on  the  task  of  repairing  the  Constitu- 
tion, in  perfect  good  faith:  with  professions  not  upon  my  lips  merely,  but  springing 
from  my  heart :  not  made  on  this  floor  to  suit  the  occasion,  but  resolved  on  and  pro* 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


mulgated  before  I  came  here.  I  reject  as  an  unworthy  suggestion,  the  idea,  that  the 
course  of  any  member  here  is  intended  as  a  mere  deception  to  beguile  this  Assembly, 
and  to  cheat  the  people  out  of  their  rightful  claim  to  reform,  it  must  be  obvious  to 
you,  Sir,  and  to  this  Committee,  that  it  is  my  earnest  wish  to  avoid  every  topic  calcu- 
lated to  disturb  the  tranquil,  judicious,  and  candid  consideration  by  this  body,  of  every 
subject  which  comes  before  it.  In  the  process  of  the  debate,  it  has  pleased  many 
gentlemen  who  are  in  favour  of  adopting  the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  to 
represent  the  West  as  having  suffered  for  years  under  the  most  cruel  neglect  of  its 
rights. 

They  have  been  represented  to  us,  as  year  after  year,  bringing  their  complaints  to  -* 
the  Legislature,  and  as  being  either  rudely  repelled,  or  treated  with  the  most  callous 
indifference.  Sir,  I  feel  that  it  is  in  my  power  to  show,  that  the  principal  ground  of 
this  complaint,  is  a  gross  mistake  of  tiae  nature  and  state  of  things.  Even  the  last 
and  latest  complaint ;  that  which  gentlemen  urge  upon  us,  as  a  most  aggravated 
grievance  ;  that  is,  the  manner  in  which  this  Convention  is  constituted,  is  utterly 
without  foundation.  1  regretted  to  hear  the  gentleman  from  Augusta  urge  this  topic 
with  a  view  to  influence  this  body.  After  enumerating  other-causes  of  complaint, 
he  reminded  us  of  our  responsibility  resulting  from  the  gross  injustice  committed  in 
the  apporLiomnent  by  whicii  the  representation  in  this  body  was  prescribed,  and  that 
a  majority  of  this  Assenjbly  represented  a  minority  of  the  people  of  the  State. 

I  did  not  understand  him  lo  complain  on  this  subject,  that  the  question,  whether 
there  should  be  a  Convention  or  not,  was  first  propounded  to  the  freeholders  of  the  State.'* 
I  am  sure  he  could  not  complain  of  this.     If  any  such  complaint  is  heard  in  any 
quarter  of  this  House,  let  it  at  once  be  silenced  ;  for,  this  limitation  was  prescribed  by 
the  advocates  of  Convention  theinselves.     It  was  those  who  sought  to  have  this 
Convention  a  sembled,  wh  >  voluntriered  la  proposing  such  a  restriction.    The  quali- 
fied voters  oi'  Virginia,  to  whom  her  sovereign  power  is  confided,  were  those  to  whom 
they  made  their  appeal  to  decide  the  question,  whether  the  Convention  should  be 
called  or  no,  and  on  the  same  principle  they  were  m.ade  the  electors  of  this  body. 
Instead  of  claiming  the  utmost  extent  of  the  principle  here  insisted  on,  and  giving 
uncontrolled  sway  to  numbers  of  all  classes,  reference  was  had  to  the  voters  only. 
Now,  1  find  from  the  result  of  the  calculation  of  a  friend  in  whom  I  have  all  confi- 
dence, that  the  following  is  the  amount  of  representation  in  this  body  of  the  difterent 
sections  of  the  State,  having  regard  only  to  the  number  of  voters.    The  whole  num- 
ber of  persons  cliarged,  in  lb2J,  with  a  land  tax,  was  92,000  in  round  numbers.  This 
sum  is  to  be  taken  as  a  dividend  ;  36,000,  out  of  this  92,000,  are  on  the  land  books  of 
the  counties  beyond  the  Blue  Pi-idge,  and  5S,0G0  on  those  East  of  that  Ridge.  Ac- 
cording to  the  ipportionment  of  that  number,  among  the  twenty-four  Senaiorial  Dis- 
tricts, that  dividend  divided  by  twenty -four  will  give  the  quotient  of  3,800  freeholders 
to  each  district.     Take  the  3(i,000  whi(  h  includes  every  name  on  the  land  books  for 
the  counties  beyond  the  mountains,  divide  that  by  3,600,  and  the  quotient  is  nine  ; 
nine  districts,  therefore,  beyond  the  Ridge  is  the  utmost  claim  that  can  be  asserted  by 
the  West,  and  have  they  not  nine  ?  But,  let  us  look  further.    That  number  of  36,000 
includes  all  the  names  on  the  Commissioners'  books  in  all  the  counties  West  of  the 
Ridge.    Now,  I  appeal  to  the  candor  of  gentlemen  of  the  West,  and  to  the  Sheriffs' 
returns,  when  1  say  that  a  large  number  of  these  names — one  tenth  at  least — are  the 
names  of  n  )n-resideuts.    Am  1  nc)t  correct.?    Is  not  much  of  that  land  ideal  And 
is  not  much  of  it  owned  by  residents  of  the  Eastern  part  of  the  State,  for  non-resi- 
dents of  the  State.?     1  earnestly  desire,  and  it  would  give  me  inexpressible  plea- 
sure, to  disabuse  the  n.inds  of  our  Western  breth  en  on  this  subject.    I  ask  those  con- 
versant withtlie  vVe-stern  counties,  to  take  up  the  land  book  and  to  say  if  one-tenth 
is  not  less  than  the  due  allowance.    The  consequence  is,  that  they  have  nine  districts, 
when,  if  tie  prmcip.e  of  the  ge.itlemen  from  N  rf «lk  and  Augusta,  (Mr.  Taylor  and 
Mr.  Johnson,)  v.'ere  to  be  strictly  applied,  they  would  not  have  more  than  eight. 
They  have  then  a  larger  representation  than  they  are  entitled  to,  and  this,  though  we 
totally  disregard  the  slave  population  of  Eastern  Virginia. 

Tills  view  is  profitable  in  its  bearing  on  another  object.  These  returns  are  for 
1829,  and  therefore  adapted  to  the  augmented  strength  of  the  V/est  at  the  present 
time.  Now,  permit  me  to  use  their  own  claim  of  rnpid  increase — and  thus  to  show 
how  far  short  these  estimates  must  have  been  of  the  number  of  voters  in  the  year 
1817,  when,  by  a  new  arrangement  of  the  Senatorial  Districts,  the  West  was  then 
allowed  a  larger  representation  in  the  Senate  than  they  are  now  entitled  to.  I  ask, 
therefore,  whether  in  the  change  of  the  Senatorial  Districts,  instead  of  being  depres- 
sed and  defrauded,  they  have  not  been  assigned  even  a  larger  share  of  political  power 
than  on  their  own  principles  they  were  entitled  to.  Yet,  it  is  said,  and  said  again, 
and  great  stress  has  been  laid  on  the  assertion,  that  they  are  languishing  under  the 
oppressive  legislation  of  a  hard-hearted  minority.  Look  at  their  representation  in  the 
House  of  Delegates.  They  have  eighty  members  out  of  two  hundred  and  fourteen, 
tliat  is,  more  than  nine  to  fifteen.  Reduce  it  to  the  proportion  of  eight  to  sixteen,  and 


DEBATES   OY  THE  CONVENTION. 


309 


their  title  on  the  same  basis  is  only  one-third  of  the  entire  number,  viz  :  to  seventy-one. 
During  this  whole  time,  therefore,  while  all  these  doleful  complaints  have  been  uller- 
ed,  they  have  been  in  tbe  practical  enjoyment  of  representation  ten  per  cent,  greater 
than  they  can  justly  claim.  Now,  tSir,  I  do  not  bring  this  as  a  matter  of  reproach, 
or  an  iteai  of  debit  or  credit,  but  my  sole  object  is  to  disabuse  their  minds  and  free 
them  from  the  influence  of  imaginary  grievances,  and  then  bring  them  to  the  real 
questions  before  this  body  with  all  that  spirit  of  conciliation,  harniony  and  good  will 
which  a  frank  correction  of  errors,  is  calculated  to  produce  ;  cherishing,  as  1  do,  the 
earnest  hope  that  the  result  of  the  labors  of  the  Convention  niay  conduce  to  the  fu- 
ture good  feeling,  confidence  and  affection  of  different  parts  of  the  State.  I  do  this 
that  1  may  expel  that  festering  sore,  that  they  may  be  convinced  that  they  have  mis- 
conceived their  own  situation,  that  no  wrong  has  been  done  them  on  their  own  prin- 
ciples, and  that  power  has  been  meted  to  them  by  their  own  scales  and  by  their  own 
weights. 

In  the  same  spirit,  and  swayed  by  similar  influences,  I  will  novv'  advert  to  the  state- 
ment of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  to  show  that  on  the  very  fbundation  he  laid, 
if  we  disregard  means  and  look  only  to  resul  s,  the  question  is,  in  fact,  reduced  to  a 
mere  form  of  words. 

But  before  I  go  to  that,  let  me  bring  to  the  notice  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta 
the  influence  of  the  principle  when  reduced  to  practice,  accordiuu;  to  the  terms  of  the 
resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  as  ex{)Jained  by  his  coadjutor  from  Loudoun 
(Mr.  Mercer,)  viz  :  the  principle  of  representation  on  the  bas;s  of  white  population. 
The  gentleman  from  Loudoun  took  t'fis  process,  lie  did  not  controvert  the  proposi- 
tion contained  in  the  resolutions  of  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk,  but  maintained  the  re- 
port of  the  Legislative  Committee,  on  the  ground  that  the  two  were  equivalents.  He 
claimed  that  equal  amounts  of  population  would  produce  equal  numbers  of  qualified 
electors.  On  this  postulate,  he  assumed,  that  the  ttAal  numbers  of  white  persons  in 
any  region  of  the  State  was  a  fair  exponent  of  the  number  of  voters  it  would  fur- 
nish, and  the  numbers  of  population  and  of  voters,  having  the  same  ratio,  however 
different  their  sum,  the  result  would  be  the  same,  whici^ever  should  be  resorted  to,  in 
making  the  apportionment  of  representation.  If  one  hundred  of  gross  population, 
wherever  situated,  gave  ten  voters  and  in  that  proportion,  it  would  be  just  as  accurate 
to  take  a  gross  population  for  your  computation  of  the  amount  of  representation,  as 
to  take  the  voters. 

The  gentleman  from  Augusta,  does  not  deal  with  these  equivalents,  or  go  on  these 
postulates.  He  has  tried  the  effect,  and  has  not  conjectured  that  if  a  given  number 
of  whites,  in  one  part  of  the  State,  furnish  a  certain  number  of  voters,  the  same  num- 
ber of  whites  in  any  otlier  part  would  furnish  a  like  number  of  voters.  Ho  has  found 
the  postulate  of  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun  to  be  fallacious,  and  the  result  shows 
one  of  the  most  striking  and  irresistible  proofs  of  the  sagacity  with  which  my  friend 
from  Chesterfield  seized  the  true  criterion  of  the  question  in  debate.  Thouoh  in  its 
form  his  proposition  was  supposed  to  be  revolting  to  the  feelings  of  the  West"  the  re- 
sult of  these  calculations  furnishes  demonstrable  proof  of  its  correctness. 

I  need  not  go  into  an  examination  of  the  classifications  of  the  gentleman  from  Au- 
gusta, made  of  the  quantum  of  power  to  each  portion  of  the  State,  deduced  by  his 
different  processes.  The  necessity  of  this  is  removed  by  the  fact  that  we  have  the 
amount  in  gross,  and  that  the  question  is  between  the  two  sections  of  the  State,  divi- 
ded by  the  Blue  Pi,idge. 

On  the  basis  of  qualified  voters,  on  the  Commissioners'  books,  the  Western  district 
has  nine  more  members  than  its  due  in  the  lower  House,  and  one  more  in  the  upper. 
The  gentleman  shakes  his  head  when  I  designate  tlie  Blue  Ridge  as  separatino-  the 
rival  interests  of  the  State.  Be  it  so.  But  let  me  tell  him,  that  it  is  a  matter  of  some 
little  value  to  us,  to  look  to  any  line.  We  can  advance  one  step  with  the  aid  of  the 
elements  of  apportionment  we  have  obtained  from  his  estimate,  by  first  takinrr  this 
primary  division  of  the  State.  We  can  say  these  are  to  be  the  estimated  amount  of 
representatives  bej^ond  the  Blue  Ridge,  and  leave  the  sub-division  to  them.  Leave 
that  estimated  for  the  East  to  us,  and  we  vAll  easily  sub-divide.  There  will  be  no  dif- 
ficulty on  this  score.  But,  look  to  the  estimated  amounts  for  the  sub-divisions  of  the 
State.  What  are  they  ?  1  could  not  take  down  the  results  of  the  gentleman's  cal- 
culations, and  so  cannot  speak  with  precision,  as  to  the  particular  sums  ;  but,  I  receiv- 
ed this  impression  from  the  whole,  tliat  taking  the  whole  number  of  tliose  who  pay 
land  tax  in  the  East  and  West,  divided  by  the  Ridge,  and  giving  them  representation 
in  proportion,  and  then  making  a  re-partition  between  the  two°sections  ©f  the  East, 
and  the  two  sub-divisions  of  the  West,  1  think  the  difference  between  the  results  of 
this,  and  an  apportionment  on  the  ratio,  that  the  amendment  under  consideration 
supplies,  will  not  amount  to  an  unit.  The  gentleman  may  say,  whether  or  not  I  am 
right.  That  the  numbers  do  very  nearly  approximate,  is  certain.  How  much  the 
difference  may  be,  is  unworthy  serious  deliberation.  Here,  then,  the  gentleman  from 
Augusta,  and  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  stand  on  a  ground  of  apportionment, 


310 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


which  leaves  the  four  grand  divisions  of  the  State,  ahmost  as  they  will  stand  on  the 
mixed  basis. 

If  you  take  the  Federal  number  and  work  by  that  rule,  it  will  bring  you  to  nearly  the 
same  result.  Now,  it  deserves  to  be  mentioned  as  a  memorable  fact,  that  this  con- 
currence of  three  different  processes,  all  leading  to  the  same  result,  shows  the  justice 
and  sagacity  of  the  scheme  of  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper  (Mr.  Green.) 

He  resorted  to  the  plan  of  a  mixed  basis  of  taxation  and  representation,  not 
arbitrary — nor  with  a  view  to  claim  and  to  conquer  power,  but  on  mature  delibera- 
tion, weighing  various  interests  as  they  exist— and  not  from  mere  speculation— and 
it  does  happen,  sucii  is  the  intluence'of  the  slave  property,  (which  is  not  property 
merely,  but  men)  on  the  other  classes  of  persons  and  property,  in  the  community, 
as  to  render  it  indispensable  that  they  should  be  considered  in  the  ratio.  And  it  is 
another  and  most  striking  evidence  of  the  sagacity  and  wisdom  of  those  who  origi- 
nated the  Federal  number.  It  acts  on  the  just  principles  of  political  economy.  The 
slave  population  acts,  not  only  as  the  labormg  power  of  society,  but  it  takes  the  place 
of  men.  Wherever  slavery  exists,  and  you  look  to  the  freemen  of  society  for  its  go- 
vernment, and  there  is  any  property  qualification,  you  arrive  at  the  same  object,  or 
very  nearly  so,  by  adding  three-fifths  of  the  slave  population,  as  by  ascertaining  all  the 
voters,  and  apportioning  your  representation  accordaig  to  numbers. 

This  view  of  the  subject  is  consohng.  It  presents  us  a  point  where  all  the  pro- 
cesses meet  and  coincide  :  and  then  the  only  question  is  (seemg  this  is  the  result  by 
either  calculation,)  not  which  ratio  shall  be  employed  just  this  moment,  but  what 
shall  be  fixed  upon  as  the  rule  of  future  apportionments.  On  that  subject,  every  con- 
sideration of  wisdom  and  of  convenience,  requires  that  we  discard  at  once,  other 
modes  of  calculation,  and  take  the  easy,  simple,  practical  plan  of  the  Federal  number, 
and  make  our  apportionment  by  that. 

Why  are  we  to  take  this  ?  Not  arbitrarily,  but  because  it  agrees  with  the  other 
processes,  and  because,  if  any  other  is  resorted  to,  for  the  future  rule,  you  force  an 
artificial  state  of  things,  by  holding  out  to  politicians  and  individuals,  inducements 
to  produce  it,  with  a  view  to  an  unequal  distribution  of  political  power.  If  you  take 
taxation  as  your  rule,  legislation  may  be  moulded,  not  by  right  principles,  but  sinister 
views  to  it ;  influence  on  political  power  and  taxation  may  be  managed,  so  as  mere- 
ly to  affect  the  balance  of  that  pov/er. 

If  you  take  the  rule  of  qualified  voters  only,  then  you  encounter  the  difficulty  of 
accurately  determining  their  number.  The  very  element  of  calculation  is  wanting. 
If  you  go  to  the  Commissioners'  books,  you  encounter  the  toil  and  expense  of  regis- 
tering all  the  lawful  voters  tliroughout  this  land  :  and  yoxx  encounter,  besides,  the  ac- 
tive principle  alluded  to  by  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  leading  men  to  make  a  false 
and  fraudulent  representation  of  the  number  of  those  votes,  and  give  an  artificial  ex- 
aggeration of  it;  and  thus  you  will  have  on  your  books,  a  host  of  men  of  straw,  who 
disappear  at  tlie  polls.  You  do  more.  And  I  wonder  that  the  strong  and  mascu- 
line mind  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  did  not  see  this  danger,  and  repudiate  the 
rule.  If  I  understood  him  aright,  there  is  no  one  who  regards,  with  a  stronger  feel- 
ing of  foreboding  and  solicitude,  that  part  of  our  duty  which  consists  in  prescribing 
the  qualification  of  voters,  than  the  gentleman.  I  have  the  authority  of  his  whole 
political  life,  (and  the  life  of  no  man  can  be  more  confidently  appealed  to,  to  deter- 
mine the  future  from  the  past,)  for  this  assertion.  And  what  must  be  the  conse- 
quences, if  he  adopts  this  principle  as  a  future  test  of  jDolitical  power  i 

The  very  first  effect  of  it,  will  be  to  turn  the  thoughts  of  this  Convention,  not  to 
the  consideration  of  the  reasons  v/hich  legitimately  belong  to  the  subject,  but  to  its 
influence  on  the  grand  question  of  pov/er. 

The  effect  will  be,  that  you  interpose  a  barrier  to  a  fair,  candid,  and  judicious  de- 
cision of  the  questions  affecting  the  limits  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage.  1  am  not  sure 
that  I  am  exempt  myself  from  the  operation  of  such  an  influence.  I  fear  that  my 
mind  may  be  turned  away,  from  considerations  justly  belonging  to  those  questions, 
by  the  important  and  decisive  influence  of  whatever  principles  we  adopt,  to  regulate 
the  Fvight  of  Suffrage,  on  the  all-absorbing  question  now  under  consideration. 

This  is  the  inevitable  effect  of  fixing  upon  the  ratio  of  voters,  as  a  principle  of  fu- 
ture action.  But,  what  will  be  the  eftect  in  future  ?  Fraud  and  simulation  in  fixing 
the  number  of  voters.  Insuperable  difficult}^  will  arise  in  getting  at  the  real  number 
of  voters.  And  allowing  you  to  get  at  it  first,  what  will  be  the  result  hereafter.? 
We  propose,  by  the  resolution  in  the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  to  extend 
the  Right  of  Suffrage,  so  as  to  include  many  new  classes  of  voters.  We  embrace  all 
who  are  house-keepers,  and  have  been  assessed  for,  and  have  paid  revenue  taxes.  I 
know  not  if  it  will  be  carried  to  that  extent — but  that  has  been  proposed.  But,  as- 
suming that  that  rule  shall  obtain,  what  is  the  number  of  quahfied  voters  when  we 
look  to  the  numbers,  not  now,  but  in  after  time  ?  When  we  fix  the  time  the  Census 
shall  be  taken,  we  cannot  look  to  a  former  Census,  but  to  that  taken  in  the  same  year 
the  apportionment  shall  be  made ;  and  that  is  to  be  the  foundation  of  the  allotment- 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVEVTIO>% 


311 


Well.  And  what  is  the  expense  at  which  the  ascendancy  of  political  power  may  be 
purchased  ?  Ave.  purchased — put  up  to  auction — and  you  the  ofterers.  The  delin- 
quents in  the  paVment  of  a  county  levy  shilhng  tax  will  probably  average  one  hundred 
and  fifty  or  two  hundred  for  each  county,  and  they,  it  may  be  presumed,  have  not 
taxable"  propertv.  The  number  of  voters  at  this  time,  taking  as  the  criterion  of  sui- 
fra^e,  the  paym'ent  of  a  revenue  tax,  are  probably  about  35.000  V.  est  of  tiie  Ridge ; 
an^  by  the  calculation  of  gentlemen  on  the  other  side,  there  are  15,000  or  20X-00 
more  above  the  age  of  twenty-one,  who  either  have  no  property  at  ail,  or  no  taxable 
property.  Tou,  Sir,  well  know,  as  every  member  of  this  Convention  knows,  that 
from  the  manner  in  which  the  assessments  are  made,  every  individual,  by  his  own 
mere  ipse  dixit,  mav  qualify-  himself  to  vote,  so  far  as  that  quahfication  depends  on 
havinof  his  name  on  the  commissioner's  book,  and  an  assessment  of  a  tax  on  property. 
Suppose  the  case  of  a  contractor  or  manufacturer  who  has  in  his  employ  five  hundred 
day-labonrers,  every  one  of  tliem  subject  to  his  beck  and  call — though  not  one  of 
them  mav  own  a  dollar's  worth  of  taxable  or  other  property,  yet  every  one  of  them 
may  at  pleasure,  when  called  on  by  the  commissioner.  afiJect  to  own  a  horse  or  some 
property  not  subject  to  a  higher  tax  than  four  cents,  and  give  in  that  as  property  owned 
b}'  him  and  liable  to  a  revenue  tax :  and  this  tax  being  paid,  he  ranks  as  a  voter,  and 
more  than  that,  he  will  enter  into  the  computation  when  representation  is  to  be  appor- 
tioned. By  this  process.  '20.000  may  be  added  to  tlie  number  of  voters,  at  an  expense 
of  S  500.  and  the  addition  of  this  20.000  may,  nay.  will  change  the  entire  balance  of 
political  power.  Tou  would  thus  put  np  that  balance  at  a  wretched  auction,  and  sell 
it  for  a  miserable  pittance.  Will  o-entlemen  close  their  eyes  to  this  view  of  the  sub- 
ject ?  If  we  are  to  proceed  in  this  downward  course,  let  us  go  the  whole  length 
at  once,  and  not  require  these  petty  frauds  to  bring  upon  us  all  the  practical  conse- 
quences of  the  utmost  extreme  to  which  we  may  go  in  extending  the  Right  of  Suf- 
frasre.  Let  us  at  once  adopt  the  plan  of  Universal  Suffrage — admit  paupers  and  ail  to 
the'polls.  Let  us  give  full  eificacy  to  the  so  much  loved  principle  of  numbers  to  its 
whole  extent.  Let  us  no  longer  struggle  with  each  other  under  vain  disguises,  but 
consent  like  men  in  the  face  of  day,  that  we  will  take  L'niversal  Sufirage  as  one  of  the 
principles  of  the  Constitution. 

I  appeal  to  the  gentleman  from  Fairfax.  Oh.  Fitzhugh.)  the  gentleman  from  Au- 
gusta, pir.  Johnson,)  the  gentleman  from  Brooke.  (Mr.  Doddridge,)  and  to  all  the 
gentlemen  on  that  side  the  House,  if  tliey  do  not  render  this  almost  inevitable:  if 
they  resort  to  such  a  principle  as  is  now  proposed,  not  for  tlie  present  only,  but  for  all 
ftiture  times,  as  the  rule  for  the  apportionment  of  representation  :  and  tlien  I  solemnly 
ask  them,  are  they  prepared  witii  their  opinions  on  the  subject  of  Suffrage,  to  incur 
this  consequence  .- 

Sir,  I  renounce  it.  I  call  on  others,  and  especially  the  gentlemen  to  whom.  I  hare 
appealed,  to  join  me  in  renouncino"  it.  and  to  unite  to  furnish  some  ground  on  which 
all  can  meet,  and  this  vexed  question  be  terminated,  at  least,  so  far  as  results  are  con- 
cerned. Let  us  renounce  all  our  processes.  This  I  hold  out  to  our  antagonists  as  an 
olive  branch — I  tender  it  as  a  peace-ofiering — let  us  renounce  all  our  processes,  and 
take  results  and  fix  them  in  the  Constitution,  and  wrangle  no  longer  about  a  form  of 
words.  Let  us  endeavor  to  fix  on  some  principle  to  guide  us  in  all  our  future  changes. 
But  if  we  cannot  do  this,  then  let  the  Constitution  be  sdent,  as  to  the  rule  to  govern 
in  future,  and  leave  to  future  times  to  provide  for  future  exigencies.  2\ct  that  I  pre- 
fer or  approve  the  omission  in  the  Constitution  of  some  rule  applicable  in  such  "exi- 
gencies. I  would  acquiesce  in  it,  however,  rather  than  continue  the  tedious  and  per- 
nicious struggle  in  which  we  are  engaged.  If  our  brethren  in  the  West  will  discharare 
from  their  minds  imaginary  injuries,  and  unseasonable  fastidiousness,  there  is  a  prin- 
ciple in  which  we  all  might  meet,  simple,  practicable,  aheady  established,  and  sus- 
taining a  most  important  interest  of  the  State  :  a  principle  which  adapts  itself  to  all 
changes — and  wluch,  if  the  prospects  held  cut  in  the  West,  be  not  tlie  creations  of 
fancy,  but  the  prophetic  augury  of  wise  observation,  will  carry  there,  along  with  its 
increasing  prosperity  and  population,  the  power  which  is  its  due.  ^ 

I  have  already  adverted  to  the  principles  on  which  I  became  a  member  of  tliis  Con- 
vention. They  vrere  known  to  the  pubhc  before  I  became  a  depository  of  the  trust 
I  hold  here,  and  permit  me  to  say  to  the  gentlemen  of  the  West — brethren  of  the 
same  community,  if  my  wishes  shall  prevail,  brethren  of  the  same  community,  we 
will  remain  in  all  time  to  come  ;  for  I  vrill  not  permit  ray  mind  to  indui2"e  even  in  the 
hypothetical  anticipation  of  a  state  of  tliinifs  that  would  reconcile  me  to  a  separation 
of  the  State,  or  to  a  disunion  of  the  L~nited  States.  In  that  term  msrxiov.  are  inclu- 
ded aU  the  master  ills  that  can  affect  a  people  or  a  State.  Though  we  mav,  and  cer- 
tainly will;  suffer  less  by  the  separation  than  the  West,  how  heart-sickenino-  is  this 
estimate,  not  of  blessings,  but  of  woes  I  Come  disunion  when  it  may,  it  is  due  to  the 
candour  of  this  debate,  to  say,  that  strong  as  we  are.  it  wiU  bring  to  us  a  measure  of 
evil,  a.t  least  equal  to  that  which  our  ISortliern  neighbours  will  suffer.  Zsay,  I  fear, 
that  if  the  extremity  of  suffering  to  which  tlie  several  parts  of  tlie  Union  would  be 


312 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


exposed  by  so  disastrous  an  event,  could  be  accurately  guaged,  the  painful  pre-emi- 
nence of  superior  suffering  would  be  found  to  belong  to  the  Southern  States. 

I  have  not  myself,  been  indifferent  to  the  interests  of  the  West.  I  am  a  friend  to 
internal  improvement.  I  have  manifested  it  not  by  professions  merely,  but  by  acts 
in  discharge  of  my  solem.n  duties  as  a  member  of  the  Legislature.  To  the  gentle- 
man from  Loudoun,  (Mr.  Mercer,)  1  allow  the  meed  of  praise,  of  being  the  author  of 
the  law  which  established  the  Board  of  Public  Vv^orks,  and  munificently  endowed  it. 
To  his  zeal  and  influence,  its  success  is  mainly  to  be  ascribed — If  praise  it  be,  I  may 
claim  for  myself,  tlaat  which  belongs  to  an  humble  but  earnest  ally  in  the  same  cause. 
It  had  my  support — and  therein,  1  think  I  gave  no  indication  of  hostility  to  Western 
interests.  I  still  continue  the  friend  of  internal  improvement  within  those  limits 
which  its  true  friends  are  disposed  to  assign  to  it.  I  am  hostile  to  gorgeous  and  vision- 
ary schemes,  calculated  only  to  delude  the  public  mind,  to  play  before  the  imagina- 
tion the  image  of  a  great  but  unattainable  good,  or  if  not  unattainable,  to  be  accom- 
plished only  at  a  cost  more  than  all  the  benefit  it  can  yield  will  counterbalance.  The 
true  test  of  the  expediency  of  attempting  improvements  of  every  kind,  is  that  which 
was  laid  down  by  my  friend  from  Augusta,  (Mr.  Johnson.)  Let  that  be  always  ap- 
plied, and  with  caution  and  care.  When  I  see  presented  to  me  a  scheme  for  any 
work  for  improving  the  state  of  the  country,  and  I  find  it  to  be  such,  that  those  who 
receive  the  aid  will  be  able  themselves  to  return  the  sum  expended,  or  a  reasonable 
interest  on  it,  I  shall  always  be  willing  to  advance  for  their  aid  the  treasure  and  credit 
of  the  State.  And  let  me  add,  that  this  is  not  a  singular  sentiment  by  any  means  in 
the  Eastern  portion  of  the  State  :  and  notiiing  can  exterminate  that  feeling  and  turn 
all  the  kindly  and  v^^holesome  affections  of  the  people  of  the  East,  to  gall  and  bitter- 
ness, but  a  callous  indifference  to  the  mighty  interests  they  hold,  and  the  tremendous 
dangers  to  which  tliose  interests  are  exposed,  and  expose  those  who  hold  them.  If 
the  East  shall  find  or  have  just  cause  to  suspect  that  callous  indifference,  not  to  their 
property  merely,  but  to  their  happiness  and  their  safety  ;  not  to  a  matter  of  pence 
and  farthings,  but  to  their  existence  itself;  the  effect  will  be  a  state  of  constant  in- 
quietude, of  vminterrupted  apprehension — a  total  destruction  of  quiet  and  happiness. 
If  to  this  indifference  shall  be  added  a  grasping  and  intractable  spirit — a  resort  to 
themes  of  angry  declamation  to  overbear  by  passion  and  prejudice,  and  delusion,  in- 
stead of  weighing  with  candour  their  claims,  and  estimating  them  with  the  kindness 
of  fraternal  feeling — then,  that  will  be  done  in  the  East,  which  some  gentlemen  think 
has  been  done  in  the  West.  There  Vviil  be  concert  and  combination.  Stimulated  by 
the  feelings  produced  by  that  most  intolerable  evil,  and  ever-present  sense  of  insecu- 
rity, they  will  regard  the  inexorable  authors  of  it,  with  fierce  and  angry  hostility,  and 
every  collision  will  heat  the  blood,  and  tend  to  melt  into  one  common  mass,  all  their 
interests  and  passions,  and  then  the  two  divisions  of  the  State  will  stand  confronted 
with  each  other ;  with  passions  aroused;,  fraternal  feelings  exasperated  into  bitter- 
ness ;  and  then  the  minority  in  the  East,  impelled  by  one  feeling,  and  directed  by 
common  will,  will,  (as  the  gentleman  says  that  of  the  West  has  done,)  practically 
control  the  power  of  the  majority.  The  tendency  of  the  claims  so  inexorably  urged 
in  total  disregard  of  tlie  rights  and  security  of  the  East,  is  to  break  the  cement  which 
has  heretofore  so  consolidated  Western  feelings  and  interests,  and  to  fuse  all  the 
people  of  the  East,  as  it  v/ere,  into  one  body  having  but  one  soul. 

I  invoke  gentlemen  to  take  this  view — I  ask  them,  whether  they  can  think  of  act- 
ing so  as  to  produce  this  violent  wrenching  of  all  the  feehngs  which  ought  to  bind 
us  as  members  of  one  political  family,  and  plant  a  thorn  in  the  wound  made  by  the 
violent  divulsion  whicii  will  rankle  for  all  time  to  come,  and  as  an  eloquent  advocate 
of  American  rights  said,  in  the  British  Parliament,  in  an  analogous  case,  produce  that 
imvicdicahile  v^dnvs,  for  which  time  has  no  lenitive,  and  no  physician  a  cure. 

Mr.  Stanard  having  resumed  his  seat,  the  question  w^as  propounded  from  the  Chair, 
and  after  a  pause,  seemed  liiiely  to  be  taken,  when 

Mr.  Randolph  rose,  and  addressed  the  Committee  as  follows  : 

Mr.  Chairman  :  It  has  been  with  great  disappointment,  and  yet  deeper  regret,  that 
I  have  perceived  an  invincible  repugnance  on  the  part  of  gentlemen  representing 
here,  a  large  portion  of  the  Commonwealth,  extending  from  Cape  Henry  to  the 
Mountains,  along  the  whole  length  of  the  North  Carolina  line,  that  portion  of  it  in 
which  my  own  district  is  situated,  to  take  a  share  in  this  debate — a  repugnance  not 
resulting — I  say  so  from  my  personal  knowledge  of  many  of  them — not  resulting 
from  any  vvant'of  ability,  nor  from  the  want  of  a  just,  modest,  and  manly  confidence 
in  the  abilities  they  possess.  I  have  looked  to  Norfolk  ;  I  have  looked  to  Southamp- 
ton ;  I  have  looked  to  Dinwiddle  ;  I  have  looked  to  Brunswick,  for  the  display  of 
talent  which  I  knew  to  exist :  but,  Sir,  I  have  looked  in  vain. 

And  it  is  this  circumstance  only— I  speak  it  with  a  sincerity,  I  have  too  much  self- 
respect  to  vouch  for,  which  has  induced  me  to  overcome  the  insuperable  aversion; 
insuperable  until  now  ;  that  I  have  felt,  to  attract  towards  myself  the  attention  of  the 
Committee.  *    .    '  :  -  ...... 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


313 


As  long  as  I  have  had  any  fixed  opinions,  I  have  been  in  the  habit  of  considering 
the  Constitution  of  Virginia,  under  which  I  have  hved  for  more  than  half  a  century, 
with  all  Its  faults  and  tailnigs,  and  with  all  the  objections  which  practical  men— not 
theorists  and  visionary  speculators,  have  urged  or  can  urge  against  it,  as  the  very 
best  Constitution  ;  not  for  Japan  ;  not  ior  Chma  ;  not  for  iSew  England  ;  or  for  Old 
England;  but  for  this,  our  ancient  Commonwealth  of  Virginia. 

But,  I  am  not  such  a  bigot  as  to  be  unwilling,  under  any  circumstances,  however 
imperious,  to  change  the  Constitution  under  which  1  was  born ;  I  may  say,  certainly 
under  which  1  was  brought  up,  and  under  wiiich,  I  had  hoped  to  be  carried  to  my 
grave.  My  principles  onlhat  subject  are  these  :  the  grievance  must  first  be  clearly 
specified,  and  fully  proved  ;  it  must  be  vital,  or  rather,  deadly  in  its  eftect ;  its  mag- 
nitude must  be  such  as  will  justify  prudent  and  reasonable  men  in  taking  the  always 
delicate,  often  dangerous  step,  of  making  innovations  in  their  fundamental  law  ;  and 
the  remedy  proposed  must  be  reasonable  and  adequate  to  the  end  in  view.  When 
the  grievance  siiall  have  been  thus  made  out,  I  hold  him  to  be  not  a  loyal  subject,  but 
a  political  bigot,  who  would  refuse  to  apply  the  suitable  remedy. 

But,  I  will  not  submit  my  case  to  a  political  physician  ;  come  his  diploma  from 
whence  it  may  ;  who  would  at  once  prescribe  all  the  medicines  in  the  Pharmacopoeia, 
not  only  for  ttie  disease  I  now  have,  but  for  all  the  diseases  of  every  possible  kind  I 
ever  might  have  in  future.  These  are  my  principles,  and  1  am  willing  to  carry  them 
out;  for,  I  will  not  hold  any  principles  which  1  niay  not  fairly  carry  out  in  practice. 

Judge,  then,  with  what  surprise  and  pain,  1  found  that  not  one  department  of  this 
Government — no,  not  one — Legislative,  Executive  or  Judicial — nor  one  branch  of 
either,  was  left  untouched  by  the  spirit  of  innovation  ;  (for  1  cannot  call  it  reform.) 
When  even  tiie  Senate,  yes,  Sir,  the  Senate,  which  had  so  lately  been  swept  by  the 
besom  of  innovation — even  the  Senate  had  not  gone  untouched  or  unscathed.  Many 
innovations  are  proposed  to  be  made,  without  any  one  practical  grievance  having  been 
even  suggested,  much  less  shown. 

Take  that  branch  of  the  Government  which  was  so  thoroughly  reformed  in  1816, 
and  even  that  is  not  untouched.  Sir,  who  ever  heard  a  whisper,  ab  urbc  condita  to 
this  day,  that  the  Senators  of  Virginia  were  too  youthful  ?  I  never  heard  such  a  senti- 
ment in  my  life.  And  in  the  flouse  of  Delegates,  what  man  ever  heard  that  the 
members — 1  speak  of  them,  of  course,  in  the  aggregate — that  the  members  were  too 
young  ?  Yet,  even  there — it  is  to  be  declared,  tliat  all  men  who  might  be  elected  to 
that  body  between  the  ages  of  twentv-one  and  twenty-f  jur,  are  to  be  disfranchised  ; 
and  as  regards  the  Senate,  all  between  the  ages  of  twenty-one  and  thirty.  Yes,  Sir, 
not  only  the  spring  and  seed-time,  but  the  summer  and  harvest  of  life  ;  that  delight- 
ful season  which  neither  you.  Sir,  nor  I  can  ever  recal  ;  the  dearest  and  the  best  por- 
tion of  our  lives  ;  during  this  period  of  nine  years,  the  very  prime  of  human  life, 
men  are  to  be  disfranchised.  And  for  w^hat .'  For  a  political  megrim,  a  freak — no  ev'l 
is  suggested.  The  case  is  certainly  very  rare,  that  a  man  under  thirty  is  elected  a 
member  of  the  Senate.  It  will  then  be  said,  there  is  no  privation,  and,  therefore,  no 
injury.  But,  Sir,  there  is  a  wide  difterence  between  a  man's  being  not  elected,  and 
a  fundamental  law  stamping  a  stigma  upon  him  by  which  he  is  excluded  from  the 
noblest  privilege  to  which  no  merit  or  exertion  on  his  part  can  restore  him.  But,  all 
this,  I  suppose,  is  in  obedience  to  the  all-prevailing  principle,  that  rox  jwpuli  vox  dei ; 
aye,  Sir,  the  all-prevailing  principle,  that  Numbers  and  Numbers  alone,  are  to  regu- 
late all  things  in  political  society,  in  the  very  teeth  of  those  abstract  natural  rio-hts  of 
man,  which  constitute  the  only  sliadow  of  claim  to  exercise  this  monstrous  tyranny. 

With  these  general  remarks,  permit  me  to  attempt — (I  am  afraid  it  will  prove  an 
abortive  attempt)  to  say  something  on  the  observations  of  other  gentlemen,  to  which 
I  have  given  the  most  profound  attention  I  am  capable  of.  Sir,  I  have  no  other  pre- 
paration for  this  task,  than  a  most  patient  attention  to  what  has  been  said  liere,  and 
in  the  Committee,  of  which  I  was  a  member,  and  deep,  intense,  and  almost  annihi- 
lating thought  on  the  subjects  before  us.  This  is  all  the  preparation  that  1  have  made. 
I  cannot  follow  the  example  which  has  been  set  me.  1  cannot  go  into  the  history  of 
my  past  life,  or  defend  my  political  consistency  here  or  elsewhere.  I  will  not  do  this 
for  this  reason:  I  have  always  held  it  unwise  to  plead  'till  I  am  arraigned,  and  ar- 
raigned before  a  tribunal  having  competent  and  ample  jurisdiction.  My  political  con- 
sistency requires  no  such  defence.  My  claim  to  Republicanism  rests  on  no  patent 
taken  out  yesterday,  or  to  be  taken  out  to-morrow.  My  life  itself  is  my  only  vouch- 
er, a  life  spent  for  thirty  years  in  the  service  of  the  most  grateful  of  constituents. 

The  gentleman  from  Augusta,  who  occupies  so  large  a  space,  both  in  the  time  and 
in  the  eye  of  the  House,  has  told  us  that  he  fought  gallantly  by  the  side  of  his  noble 
friend  from  Chesterfield,  so  long  as  victory  was  possible,  and  that  it  was  not  until  he 
was  coriquered,  that  he  grounded'his  arms.  The  gentleman  farther  told  us  that,  finding 
his  native  country  and  his  early  friend?  on  this  side  the  mountain,  on  whose  behalf 
he  had  waged  that  gallant  war — he  found  he  hesitated  what  part  to  take  noic,  until  his 
constituents,  aye,  Sir — and  more  than  that,  his  property,  on  the  other  side — and  h^ 

40 


314 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


has  taken  his  course  accordingly.  Well,  Sir,  and  will  he  not  allow,  on  our  part, 
that  some  consideration  is  due  to  our  constituents,  although  they  happen  to  be  our 
neighbours  ;  or  to  our  property,  although  we  reside  upon  it  ?  Are  either  or  both  less 
dear  on  that  account  ? 

But,  Sir,  I  put  it  to  the  Committee,  whether  the  gentleman  is  not  mistaken  in  point 
of  fact  ?  Whether  the  victory  is  indeed  won  ?  Every  one,  to  be  sure,  is  the  best  judge 
whether  he  is  beateu  or  not.  But,  I  put  it  to  the  gentleman  himself,  whether,  if  lie 
were  now  fighting  along  side  of  his  noble  friend  from  Chesterfield,  the  scale  might 
not  possibly  turn  the  other  way  ?  No  man,  however,  is  compelled  to  fight  after  he 
feels  himself  vanquished. 

Sir,  I  mean  no  ill-timed  pleasantry,  either  as  it  regards  the  place  where  it  is  uttered, 
the  person  to  whom  it  refers,  and  least  of  all,  as  it  respects  him  by  whom  the  remark 
is  inade,  when  I  say,  that  in  this  prudent  resolution  of  the  gentleman  from  Augus- 
ta, he  could  not  have  been  exceeded  in  caution  and  forecast  by  a  certain  renowned 
Captain  Dugate  Dalgetty  himself.  Sir,  the  war  being  ended,  he  takes  service  on  the 
other  side  : — the  sceptre  having  passed  from  Judali,  the  gentleman  stretches  out  his 
arm  from  P^ichmond,  to  Rockfisii  Gap,  to  intercept  and  clutch  it  in  its  passage. 

Among  various  other  observations  with  which  he  favoured  the  Committee,  he  pro- 
tested with  great  earnestness  against  opinions  relating  to  the  Federal  Government  or 
its  administration  being  introduced  here.  Sir,  the  gentleman  is  too  great  a  lawyer 
not  to  know,  that  the  Federal  Government  is  our  Government : — it  is  the  Govern- 
ment of  Virginia  : — and  if  a  man  were  disposed  to  shut  his  eyes  to  the  Constitution, 
and  the  administration  of  the  Federal  Government,  he  could  not  do  it:  they  would  be 
forced  open.  Sir,  by  the  interests,  and  feelings,  aye,  and  by  the  passions  too,  which 
have  existed,  do  exist,  and  will  continue  to  exist,  as  long  as  Virginia  herself  shall 
have  existence. 

It  is  not  the  least  of  my  regrets  that  one  of  the  most  inevitable  consequences  of 
these  changes,  if  they  shall  take  effect,  will  be  totally  to  change  all  the  politics  of 
Virginia  in  reference  to  the  Federal  Government;  (without  considering  the  hands  in 
which  it  may  happen  to  be  placed.)  and  J  do  confidently  believe,  that  the  very  great- 
est cause  of  them  is  to  be  found  in  the  hope  of  producing  that  all-desired  change- 
In  many  cases  I  know  it  to  exist,  of  my  own  personal  knowledge. 

Sir,  we  can't  shut  our  eyes  to  the  Federal  Government. 

When  in  1783,  the  Convention  of  Virginia  adopted  the  Federal  Government  as  a 
part  of  her  Constitution,  they  effected  a  greater  change  in  our  Constitution  than  the 
wildest  reformer  now  suggests  to  us  :  to  estimate  the  amount  of  that  change  we  must 
have  reference  to  her  interests  and  power  at  that  day  :  if  not,  we  may  call  ourselves 
Statesmen,  but  the  world  will  apply  to  us  a  very  different  epithet.  Among  innume- 
rable causes  why  I  now  oppose  a  change,  is  my  full  recollection  of  the  change  which 
was  then  brought  about.  1  have  by  experience  learned  that  changes,  even  in  the  or- 
dinary law  of  the  land,  do  not  always  operate  as  the  drawer  of  the  bill,  or  the  Legis- 
lative body,  may  have  anticipated:  and  of  all  things  in  the  world,  a  Government, 
whether  ready  made,  to  suit  casual  customers,  or  made  per  order,  is  the  very  last  that 
operates  as  its  framers  intended.  Governments  are  like  revolutions  :  you  may  put 
them  in  motion,  but  I  defy  you  to  control  them  after  they  are  in  motion. 

Sir,  if  there  is  any  one  thing  clearer  than  another,  it  is  that  the  Federal  Constitu- 
tion intended  that  the  State  Governments  should  issue  no  paper  money  ;  and  by  giv- 
ing the  Federal  Government  power"  to  coin  money,'''  it  was  intended  to  insure  the 
result  that  this  should  be  a  hard  money  Government  : — and  what  is  it.'  It  is  a  paper- 
money  Government.  If  this  be  the  result,  in  spite  of  all  precautions  to  the  contra- 
ry— (Sir,  this  is  no  time,  as  the  late  illustrious  President  of  the  Court  of  Appeals  was 
wont  to  say,  to  mince  words.)  and  these  Governments  have  turned  out  to  be  two  most 
corrupt  paper-money  Governments,  and  you  could  not  prevent  it ;  how  can  we  ex- 
pect, now,  to  define  and  limit  the  operation  of  new  and  untried  principles.^  For  new 
and  untried  they  are ;  and  if  God  lends  me  strength,  I  will  prove  it. 

I  have  very  high  authority — tlie  authority  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta — to  say 
that  the  Federal  Government  was  intended  to  be  charged  only  with  the  external  re- 
lations of  the  country  :  but,  by  a  strange  transformation,  it  has  become  the  regulator, 
(abandoning  the  Colonial  trade  by  negligence,  or  incapacity,  or  both,  and  crippling 
all  our  other  trade,)  it  has  become  the  regulator  of  the  interior  of  the  country  ;  its 
roads;  its  canals;  and,  more  than  all,  of  its  productive,  or  rather  its  unjyroductive  la- 
bour, (for  they  have  made  it  so.) 

Yet,  with  these  facts  staring  us  in  the  face,  we  are  gravely  told  not  to  look  at  the 
Federal  Government  at  all.  And  this  in  the  Government  of  Virginia,  where,  to 
use  a  very  homely  phrase,  but  one  tliat  exactly  suits  the  case,  we  can't  take  a  step 
without  breaking  our  shins  over  some  Federal  obstacle. 

Sir,  I  can  readily  see  a  very  strong  motive  for  wishing  to  do  away  all  past  distinc- 
tions in  politics,  to  obliterate  the  memory  of  old  as  well  as  of  recent  events,  and  once 
more  to  come  with  something  like  equal  chances  into  the  political  lottery. 


DEBATES    OF    THE  COXYEXTION-. 


Let  me  return  to  my  illustration.  What  provision  is  there.  Mr.  Chairman,  either 
in  the  Constitution  of  Virginia  or  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  which  es- 
tablishes it  as  a  principle,  that  the  Commonwealth  of  Virginia  should  be  the  sole  res- 
training and  regulating  power  on  the  mad  and  unconstitutional  usurpations  of  the 
Federal  Gove?nment  ?  There  is  no  such  provision  in  either  : — vet.  in  practice,  and  in 
fact,  the  Commonwealth  of  Virginia  has  been,  to -my  certain  knowledge,  for  more 
than  thirty  3'ears,  the  sole  counterpoise  and  check  on  the  usurpations  of  tiie  Federal 
Government — so  far  as  they  have  been  checked  at  all :  I  wish  they  had  been  checked 
more  effectually. 

For  a  long  time,  our  brethren  of  the  South,  because  we  were  the  frontier  State  of 
the  grp.at  SDUthern  division  of  the  UnioD,  were  dead  to  considerations  to  which  they 
have,  I  fear,  awaked  too  late.  Virginia  was  left  alone  and  imsupported,  unless  by 
the  feeble  aid  of  her  distant  offspring,  Kentucky.  It  is  because  I  am  unwilling  to 
give  up  tills  check,  or  to  diminish  its  force,  that  I  am  unwilling  to  pull  down  the  edi- 
fice of  our  State  Government  from  the  garret  to  the  cellar;  aye,  down  to  the  founda- 
tion stone.  I  will  not  put  in  hazard  this  single  good,  for  all  the  benefits  the  warm- 
est advocate  of  reform  can  hope  to  derive  from  the  results  of  this  body. 

The  gentleman  from  Augusta  told  us,  yesterday,  I  believe,  or  the  day  before,  or  the 
day  before  that,  (I  really  do  not  remember  which,)  that  slaves  have  always  been  a 
subject  of  taxation  in  Virginia,  and  that  a  long  v\-hile  ago  neat  cattle  had  also  been 
taxed.  In  reofard  to  these  horned  cattle,  I  think  they  have  occupied  full  as  much  at- 
tention as  thev  are  entitled  to  in  this  debate.  But,  let  it  be  remembered,  that  we  were 
then,  not  taxing  tlie  cattle  of  the  West,  for  there  was  no  West,  but  a  few  scattered 
settlements  beyond  the  mountain;  and  what  we  have  been  discussing-  was  the  pro- 
portion of  taxes  paid  by  the  East  and  the  West.  No  sooner  vras  an  interest  in  this 
subject  established  beyond  the  mountains,  than  tlie  tax  was  laid  aside.  At  that  time, 
Sir,  the  Commonwealth  of  Virginia  was  throughout,  a  slave-holding  Commonwealth  : 
(would  to  God  she  were  so  now.)  And  is  it  then  so  wonderful  that  slaves  should 
have  been  a  subject  of  taxation  ?  Yes,  Sir :  Virginia  was  then  not  only  throughout, 
a  slave-holding,  but  a  tobacco-planting  Commonwealth.  You  can't  open  the  Statute 
Book — 1  mean  one  of  the  Oid  Statute  Books,  not  those  that  have  been  defaced  by  the 
finofer  of  reform — and  not  see  that  tobacco  v."as,  in  fact,  tiie  currency,  as  well  as 
staple  of  the  State.  We  paid  our  clerks"  fees  in  tobacco  :  verdicts  were  given  in  to- 
bacco:  and  bonds  were  executed  payable  in  tobacco.  That  accounts  for  it  all.  While 
a  large  portion  of  the  State  has  ceased  to  be  a  slave-holding,  and  a  still  larger  portion 
has  ceased  to  be  a  tobacco-planting  community,  the  burden  has  rested  on  the  necks 
of  a  comparatively  small,  unhappy,  and  I  will  say  it,  a  proscribed  caste  in  the  com- 
munitv.  2sot  that  any  such  elfect  was  intended,  when  all  were  tobacco-planters,  tax- 
es on  slaves  and  tobacco  were  fair  and  equal.  But.  time,  tlie  greatest  of  innovators, 
has  silently  operated  to  produce  this  great  and  grindmg  oppression.  nativity  cast 

my  lot  there.  I  am  one  of  them.  I  participate  in  all  their  interests  and  fee'huofs. 
And  if  I  had  been  told,  until  I  had  the  evidence  of  fact  to  prove  it — tliat  one  of  tie 
great  slave-holding  and  tobacco-planting  districts,  would  lend  itself  to  tlie  support  of 
the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  unmitigated,  or,  to  use  a  term  for  which  I 
am  indebted  to  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania,  unmoUijied.  or  undulcififd  by  any 
thing  to  give  it  a  wholesome  operation.  I  would  not  have  believed  it.  Nothing  but 
ocular  and  auricular  demonstration,  would  have  made  me  believe  it  possible.  For  my 
part.  1  had  not  only,  as  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  has  said,  never  have  been 
born,  but,  beinof  born  and  grown  up  as  I  am.  it  were  better  for  me  that  a  mill-stone 
were  hanged  about  my  neck,  and  I  cast  into  the  uttermost  depths  of  the  sea,  than  to 
return  to  my  constituents  after  having  given  a  naked  vote  for  the  report  of  the  Com- 
mittee. .  * 

Sir,  when  I  speak  of  danorer,  from  what  quarter  does  it  come  ;  from  whom  From 
the  corn  and  oat  growers  on  the  Eastern  Shore,  the  Rappahannock  and  the  Pamun- 
key  :  From  the  fishermen  on  the  Chesapeake  :  The  pilots  of  EUzabeth  City No, 
Sir — from  ourselves — from  the  great  slave-h  aiding  and  tobacco -planting  districts  of 
the  State.  I  could  not  have  brought  myself  to  believe  it — nothing  could  have  persua- 
ded me  to  believe,  that  the  real  danger  which  threatens  this  great  interest,  should 
spring  from  those  districts  themselves.  And.  arrogant  and  presumptuous  as  it  may 
appear  in  me,  (these  epithets  have  been  applied  to  us  by  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,) 
I  will  risk  any  thing  shzri  of  my  eternal  salvation  on  the  fact,  that  when  the  people 
of  that  region  come  to  understand  the  real  question,  you  will  as  soon  force  ratsbane 
down  their  tln-oats,  as  a  Constitution  with  such  a  principle  in  it. 

The  gentleman  from  Augusta  told  us,  yesterday,  or  the  day  before.  I  cannot  be  cer- 
tain as  to  the  precise  day.  with  some  appearance  as  if  it  were  a  grievance,  that  the 
people  had  interfered  :  and  he  asked  if  we  are  to  be  instructed  out  of  our  seats .'  I 
answer,  yes.  Such  as  cannot  be  instructed  in  their  seats,  must  be  instructed  out  of 
their  seats.  He  says  tlie  voices  of  tlie  people  from  county  meetings  and  cross  roads 
and  taverns,  will  come  here  and  interrupt  the  harmony  of  our  deliberations. 


316 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


I  trust  they  will.  Though  the  people  have  hitherto  been  supine,  on  this  side  the 
mountains,  I  trust  they  will  take  tlje  matter  into  their  own  hands.  I  hope  they  are 
beginning  to  rouse  from  their  torpor :  and  I  know  it.  I  will  state  one  fact,  to  show 
that  the  current  of  public  sentinient,  is  fast  setting  in  on  our  side.  I  do  not  say  whe- 
ther it  was  for  or  against  us  before.  I  have  heard,  not  one,  not  ten,  not  fifty,  (and 
when  I  say  not  fifty,  I  mean  not  less,  but  more  than  that  number,)  of  intelligent  men 
declare,  that  if  by  any  possibility,  they  could  have  foreseen,  (poor  innocents.)  that 
such  were  to  be  the  results,  they  never  would  have  voted  for  tiiis  Convention.  In 
the  mean  while,  not  a  single  convert  has  been  made  from  our  cause  ;  if  there  has, 
name  the  man ;  I  could  name  ten,  twenty,  aye,  fifty;  and  if  I  were  to  resort  to  docu- 
mentary evidence,  I  could  name  more.  So  far  am  I  from  being  one  of  those,  who 
wish  to  precipitate  the  question,  I  am  glad,  I  rejoice  in  the  prospect,  that  our  Session 
will  run  into  that  of  the  Virginia  Assembly.  In  politics,  I  am  always  for  getting  the 
last  advices.  You  can  never  get  at  the  true  temper  of  the  public  mind,  till  the  occa- 
sion presents  itself  for  decisive  action. 

I  have  made,  and  shall  make,  no  disclaimer  of  having  intended  offence  to  any  per- 
son or  party  in  this  body — and  this  for  the  same  reason  I  before  stated.  I  never  will 
plead,  till  I  am  arraigned  by  a  competent  tribunal — and  the  disclaimer  would  be  mis- 
placed. Gentlemen  on  all  sides,  have  spoken  of  the  iniention  with  which  they  are 
demanding  power,  (for  the  gentleman  from  Augusta  lifted  the  veil,  and  owned  to  us, 
that  power,  and  power  alone,  is  the  object  he  is  in  pursuit  of.)  Sir,  I  mean  no  disre- 
spect, when  I  say,  that  however  important  it  may  be  to  themselves,  to  me  it  is  a  mat- 
ter of  perfect  inditference — 1  speak  in  reference  to  the  operation  of  their  measures — 
whether  tlieir  intents  be  wicked  or  charitable.  I  say,  the  demand  which  they  make, 
is  such  as  ought  to  alarm  every  considerate  and  fore-thoughted  man ;  and  that  there 
is  notliing  to  mitigate  that  alarm,  in  the  stern,  unrelenting,  inexorable,  remorseless 
cry,  which  they  raise  for  power,  and  their  determination  to  hsten  to  no  compromise. 
One  gentleman,  indeed,  has  abated  somewhat,  of  his  tone  of  triumph.  Perhaps,  the 
prospect  of  speedy  enjoyment,  has  calmed  his  exultation,  and  sobered  him  dowm. 

Mr.  Chairman,  since  1  have  been  here,  the  scene  has  recalled  many  old  recollec- 
tions. At  one  time,  I  thouglit  myself  in  the  House  of  Representatives,  listening  to 
the  debate  on  the  Tariff;  at  another  time,  I  imagined  myself  listening  to  the  debate 
on  the  Missouri  Question  ;  and  sometimes  I  fancied  myself  listening  to  both  questions 
debated  at  once.  Are  we  men  met  to  consult  about  the  affairs  of  men  ?  Or  are 
we,  in  truth,  a  Robinhood  Society discussing  rights  in  the  abstract.''  Have  we  no 
house  over  our  heads?  Do  we  forget,  that  we  are  living  under  a  Constitution,  which 
has  shielded  us  for  more  than  half  a  century — that  we  are  not  a  parcel  of  naked  and 
forlorn  savages,  on  the  shores  of  New  Holland ;  and  that  the  worst  that  can  come  is, 
that  we  shall  live  under  the  same  Constitution  that  we  have  lived  under,  freely  and 
happily,  for  half  a  century  ?  To  their  monstrous  claims  of  power,  we  plead  this  pre- 
scription ;  but  then  we  are  told,  that  milium  temjms  occurrit  Rrgi — King  whom  King 
Numbers.  And  they  will  not  listen  to  a  prescription  of  fifly-your  years — a  period 
greater,  by  four  years,  than  would  secure  a  title  to  the  best  estate  in  the  Common- 
wealth, unsupported  by  any  other  shadow  of  right.  Nay,  Sir,  in  this  case,  prescrip- 
tion operates  against  possession.  They  tell  us,  it  is  only  a  case  of  long-continued, 
and,  therefore,  of  aggravated  injustice.  They  say  to  us,  in  words  the  most  courteous 
and  soft,  (but  I  am  not  so  soft  as  to  swallow  them,)  "we  shall  be — we  will  be — we 
must  be  your  masters,  and  you  shall  submit."  To  whom  do  they  hold  this  langunge  ? 
To  dependents.?  weak,  unprotected,  and  incapable  of  defence?  Or  is  it  to  the  great 
tobacco-growing  and  slave-holding  interest,  and  to  every  other  interest  on  this  side 
the  Ridge?  "We  are  numbers,  you  have  property."  I  am  not  so  obtuse,  as  to  re- 
quire any  further  explanation  on  this  head.  "  We  are  numbers,  you  have  property." 
Sir,  1  understand  it  perfectly.  Mr.  Chairman,  since  the  days  of  the  French  Revolu- 
tion, when  the  Duke  of  Orleans,  who  was  the  richest  subject,  not  only  in  France, 
but  in  all  Europe,  lent  him.=5elf  to  the  mountain  party  in  the  Convention,  in  the  A^ain 
and  weak  hope  of  grasping  political  power,  perhaps  of  mounting  the  throne,  still 
slippery  with  the  blood  of  the  last  incumbent — from  that  day  to  this,  so  great  a  de- 
gree of  infatuation,  has  not  been  shown  by  any  individual,  as  by  the  tobacco-grower, 
and  slave-holder  of  Virginia,  who  shall  lend  his  aid  to  rivet  this  yoke  on  the  necks  of 
his  brethren,  and  on  his  own.  Woe  betide  that  man  !  Even  the  Duke  of  Orleans 
himself,  profligate  and  reprobate  as  he  was,  would  have  halted  in  his  course,  had  he 
foreseen  in  the  end,  his  property  confiscated  to  the  v/inds,  and  his  head  in  the  sack  of 
the  executioner. 

I  enter  into  no  calculations  of  my  own,  for  I  have  made  none,  nor  shall  I  follow  the 
example  which  has  been  set  me.  I  leave  that  branch  of  the  argument,  if  argument 
it  can  be  called,  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  to  be  answered  by  himself. 

The  gentleman  told  us,  the  day  before  yesterday,  that  in  fifteen  minutes  of  the  suc- 
ceeding day,  he  would  conclude  all  he  had  to  say;  and  he  then  kept  us  two  hours, 
not  by  "the  Shrewsbury  clock,  but  by  as  good  a  watch  as  can  be  made  in  the  city  of 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


317 


London.  {Drawing  out  and  opening  his  watch.)  As  fifteen  minutes  are  to  two  hours — 
in  the  proportion  of  one  to  eight — such  is  the  approximation  to  truth,,  in  the  gentleman's 
calculations.  If  all  the  calculations  and  promises  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta, 
which  he  held  out  to  gall  us — I  speak  not  of  his  intentions,  but  only  of  the  effect  that 
would  have  ensued — ^hall  be  no  nearer  the  truth  than  these,  where  then  should  we 
be  who  trust  them  ? 

In  the  course  of  what  I  fear  will  be  thought  my  very  wearisome  observations,  I 
spoke  of  the  Tariff  Law.  When  the  people  of  the  United  States  threw  off  their  al- 
legiance to  Great  Britain,  and  estabhshed  E.epublican  Governments  here,  whether 
State  or  Federal,  one  discovery  since  made  in  politics,  had  not  yet  entered  into  the 
head  of  any  man  in  the  Union,  and  which,  if  not  arrested  by  the  good  sense  and  pa- 
triotism of  the  country,  will  destroy  all  Republican  Government,  as  certainly  and 
inevitably  as  time  will  one  day  destroy  us.  That  discovery  is  this  :  that  a  bare  majo- 
rity— (the  majority  on  the  Tariff  was,  I  believe,  but  two — my  friend,  behind  me, 
(Mr.  V.  P.  Barbour.)  tells  me  that  I  am  right — aaid  on  one  importairt  branch  of  that 
law,  that  I  mean,  which  relates  to  cotton  bagging,  the  majority  was  but  one.  and  that 
consisted  of  the  casting  vote  of  the  Speaker.)  that  a  bare  majority  may  oppretb,  ha- 
rass, and  plunder  the  minority  at  pleasure,  but  that  it  is  their  mterest  to  keep  up  the 
minority  to  the  highest  possible  point  consistent  with  their  subjugation,  because,  the 
larger  tliat  minority  shall  be.  in  proportion  to  the  majority,  by  that  same  proportion 
are  the  profits  of  the  majority  enhanced,  which  they  have  extracted  and  extorted 
from  the  minority.  And  after  all  our  exclamations  against  this  crying  oppression ; 
after  all  our  memorials  and  remonstrances  j  after  aU  our  irrefragable  arguments 
against  it,  (I  refer  not  to  the  share  I  had  in  them,  I  speak  of  the  arguments  of  - 
other  gentlemen,  and  not  of  my  own.)  shall  we  in  Virginia,  introduce  tliis  deadly 
principle  into  our  own  Government  ?  and  give  power  to  a  bare  majority  to  tax  us  ad 
Libitum,  and  that  when  the  strongest  temptation  is  at  the  same  time  Jield  out  to  them,  to 
do  it  ?  It  is  now  a  great  while  since  I  learned  from  the  philosopher  of  Malmesbury, 
that  a  state  of  nature  is  a  state  of  war;  but  if  we  sanction  this  principle,  we  shall 
prove  that  a  state,  not  of  nature,  but  of  society,  and  of  Constitutional  Government, 
is  a  state  of  interminable  war.  And  it  will  not  stop  here.  Instructed  by  this  most 
baneful,  yes,  and  most  baleful  example,  we  shall  next  have  one  part  of  a  county 
conspiring  to  throw  their  share  of  the  burden  of  the  levy  upon  the  other  part.  Sir, 
if  there  is  a  destructive  principle  in  politics,  it  is  that  which  is  maintained  bv  the  gen- 
tleman from  Augusta. 

But  we  are  told  that  we  are  to  have  a  stay  of  execution.  We  will  give  you  time, 
say  the  gentlemen  :  onl}'  give  us  a  bond  binding  all  your  estate,  secured  by  a  deed  of 
trust  on  all  your  slaves."'  Why,  Sir,  there  is  not  a  hard-hearted  Shylock  in  the 
Commonwealth,  who  will  not,  on  such  conditions,  give  you  time.  Are'we  so  weak, 
that,  like  the  spend-thrift  who  runs  to  the  usurer,  we  are  wilhng  to  encounter  this  ca-  " 
lamit}',  because  it  is  not  to  come  upon  us  till  the  year  1856 A  period  not  as  long  as 
some  of  us  have  been  in  public  life  r  Sir,  I  would  not  consent  to  it,  if  it  were  not 
to  come  till  the  year  2U5G.  I  am  at  war  with  the  principle.  Let  me  not  be  told,  that 
then  I  am  at  war  with  the  Bill  of  Rights.  I  subscribe  to  every  word  in  the  Bill  of 
Rights.  I  need  not  show  hov/  this  can  be.  It  has  been  better  done  alreadv  by  tlie 
gentleman  from  Spottsylvania.  (Mr.  Stanard.)  to  whom  I  feel  personally  indebted  as 
a  tobacco-planter  and  a  slave-holder,  for  the  speech  he  has  made.  The  Bill  of  Rio:hts 
contains  unmodified  principles.  The  declarations  it  contains  are  our  lights  and  ofuides, 
but  when  we  come  to  apply  these  great  principles,  we  must  modifj^  them  for  use; 
we  must  set  limitations  to  their  operation,  and  the  enquiry  then  is,  qiiousque?  How 
far.'  It  is  a  question  not  of  principle,  but  of  degree.  The  very  moment  this  imma- 
culate principle  of  their's  is  touched,  it  becomes  what  all  principles  are,  materials  in 
the  hands  of  men  of  sense,  to  be  applied  to  the  welfare  of  the  Commonwealth.  It 
is  not  an  incantation.  It  is  no  Talisman.  It  is  not  witchcraft.  It  is  not  a  torpedo 
to  benumb  iis.  If  the  naked  principle  of  numbers  only  is  to  be  followed,  the  requi- 
sites for  the  Statesman  fall  far  below  what  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania  rated 
them  at.  He  needs  not  the  four  rules  of  arithmetic.  No,  Sir,  a  negro  boy  with  a 
knife  and  a  tally-stick,  is  a  Statesman  complete  in  tliis  school.  Sir,  I  do  not  scoff, 
jeer  or  flout,  (I  use,  I  think,  the  ver}^  words  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta ;  two 
of  them  certainly  were  employed  by  him.)  at  the  principles  of  the  Bill'^of  Rights, 
and  so  help  me  Heaven,  I  liave  not  heard  of  any  who  did.  But  I  hold  with  one  of 
the  greatest  masters  of  political  philosophy,  that  "  no  rational  man  ever  did  crovern 
himself  by  abstractions  and  universals."  I  do  not  put  abstract  ideas  wholly^out  of 
any  question,  because  I  know  well  that  under  that  name  I  should  dismiss  principles; 
and  that  without  the  guide  and  light  of  sound,  well  understood  principles,  all  rea- 
sonings in  politics,  as  every  thing  else,  would  be  only  a  confused  jumble  of  particular 
facts  and  details,  witliout  the  means  of  drawing  out  any  sort  of  theoretical  or  practi- 
cal conclusion. 


318 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


"  A  Statesman  differs  from  a  Professor  in  an  University.  The  latter  has  only  the 
general  view  of  society ;  the  former,  the  Statesman,  has  a  number  of  circumstances 
to  combine  with  those  general  ideas,  and  to  take  into  his  consideration.  Circumstan- 
ces are  infinite,  are  infinitely  combined,  are  variable  and  transient:  he  who  does  not 
take  them  into  consideration,  is  not  erroneous,  but  stark  mad — dat  oiieram  vt  cum 
ratione  insanat — he  is  metaphysically  mad.  A  Statesman,  never  losing  sight  of  prin- 
ciples, is  to  be  guided  by  circumstances,  and  judging  contrary  to  the  exigencies  of  the 
moment,  he  may  ruin  his  country  forever." 

Yes,  Sir — and  after  that  ruin  has  been  effected,  what  a  poor  consolation  is  derived 
from  ^^eing  told,  "  I  had  not  thought  it."  Stulti  est  dixisse  nan  putaram.  "  Who 
•would  have  thought  it  ?  Lord  bless  me  !  I  never  thought  of  such  a  thing,  or  I  never 
would  have  voted  for  a  Convention." 

If  there  is  any  country  on  earth  where  circumstances  have  a  more  important  bear- 
ing than  in  another,  it  is  here,  in  Virginia.    Nearly  half  the  population  are  in  bon- 
dage— yes,  Sir,  more  than  half  in  the  country  below  the  Ridge.    And  is  this  no  cir- 
cumstance      Yet,  let  me  say  with  the  gentleman  from  Accomac,  (Mr.  Joynes,) 
whose  irresistible  array  of  figures  set  all  figures  of  speech  at  defiance,  that  if  there 
were  not  a  negro  in  Virginia,  I  would  still  contend  for  the  principle  in  the  amend- 
ment.   And  why  ?    Because  I  will  put  it  in  tiie  power  of  no  man  or  set  of  men  who 
ever  lived,  or  who  ever  shall  live,  to  tax  me  without  my  consent.    It  is  wholly  imma- 
terial whether  this  is  done  without  my  having  any  representation  at  all,  or,  as  it  was 
done  in  the  case  of  the  Tariff  Law,  by  a  phalanx  stern  and  inexorable,  who  being  the 
majority,  and  having  the  power,  prescribe  to  me  the  law  that  I  shall  obey.    Sir,  what 
was  it  to  all  the  Southern  interest,  that  we  came  within  two  votes  of  defeating  that 
iniquitous  measure?    Do  not  our  adversaries,  (for  adversaries  they  are,)  know  that 
they  have  the  power.?  and  that  we  must  submit.?    Yes,  Sir.    This  whole  slave-hold- 
ing country,  the  whole  of  it,  from  the  Potomac  to  Mexico,  was  placed  under  the  ban 
and  anatiiema  of  a  majority  of  two.    And  vv^ill  you  introduce  such  a  principle  into 
your  own  State  Government.?    Sir,  at  some  times  during  this  debate,  1  doubted  if  I 
were  in  my  right  mind.    From  the  beginning  of  time  till  now,  there  is  no  case  to  be 
found  of  a  rational  and  moral  people  subverting  a  Constitution  under  which  they  had 
lived  for  half  a  century — aye,  for  two  centuries,  by  a  majority  of  one.    When  revo- 
lutions have  happened  in  other  countries,  it  was  the  effect  of  a  political  storm,  a  Le- 
vanter, a  tornado,  to  which  all  opposition  was  fruitless.    But  did  any  body  ever  hear 
of  a  revolution  affecting  the  entire  condition  of  one  half  of  a  great  State,  being  ef- 
fected by  a  majority  of  one.?    Did  it  ever  enter  the  head  of  the  wildest  visionary, 
from  the  days  of  Peter  the  Hermit,  to — a  day  I  will  not  name — to  accomplish  a  revo- 
lution by  a  majority  of  onc^    Sir,  to  change  your  Constitution  by  such  a  majority,  is 
nothing  more  than  to  sound  the  tocsin  for  a  civil  war.    It  may  be  at  first,  a  war  of 
words,  a  weaponless  war,  but  it  is  one  of  those  cases  in  which,  as  the  lawyers  tell  us, 
fury  supplies  arms.    Sir,  this  thing  cannot  be  :  it  must  not  be.    I  was  about  to  say, 
it  shaU  not  be.    I  tell  gentlemen  now,  with  the  most  perfect  delibemtion  and  calm- 
ness, that  we  cannot  submit  to  this  outrage  on  our  rights.    It  surpasses  that  measure 
of  submission  and  forbearance,  which  is  due  from  every  member  of  an  organized 
Government,  to  that  Government.    And  why  do  I  so  tell  them .?    Sir,  we  are  not  a 
company  of  naked  savages  on  the  coast  of  New  Holland,  or  Van  Diemans  Land — 
we  have  a  Government ;  we  have  rights  ;  and  do  you  think  that  we  shall  tamely  sub- 
mit, and  let  you  deprive  us  of  our  vested  rights,  and  reduce  us  to  bondage .?  Yes, 
vested  rights  !  that  we  shall  let  you  impose  on  us  a  yoke  hardly  lighter  than  that  of 
the  villeins  regardant  of  the  manor .?    We  are  now  little  better  than  the  trustees  of 
slave-labour  for  the  nabobs  of  the  East,  and  of  the  North,  (if  there  be  any  such  per- 
sons in  our  country,)  and  to  the  speculators  of  the  West.    They  regulate  our  labour. 
Are  we  to  have  two  masters .?    When  every  vein  has  been  sluiced — when  our  whole 
system  presents  nothing  but  one  pitiful  enchj'mosis — are  we  to  be  patted  and  tapped 
to  find  yet  another  vein  to  breathe,  not  for  the  Federal  Government,  but  for  our  own  ? 
Why,  Sir,  the  richest  man  in  Virginia,  be  that  man  who  he  may,  would  make  a  good 
bargain  to  make  you  a  present  of  his  estate,  provided  you  give  him  bond  upon  that 
estate,  allowing  him  to  tax  it  as  he  pleases,  and  to  spend  the  money  as  he  pleases.  It 
is  of  the  very  essence  of  property,  that  none  shall  tax  it  but  the  owner  himself,  or 
one  who  has  a  common  feeling  and  interest  with  him.    It  does  not  require  a  plain 
planter  to  tell  an  Assembly  like  this,  more  than  half  of  whose  members  are  gentlemen 
of  the  law,  that  no  man  may  set  his  foot  on  your  land,  without  your  permission,  but 
as  a  trespasser,  and  that  he  renders  himself  liable  to  an  action  for  damages.    This  is 
of  the  very  essence  of  property.    But  he  says,  "  thank  you,  for  nothing — with  all 
my  heart,  I  don't  mean  to  set  my  foot  on  your  land  ;  but,  not  owning  one  foot  of  land 
myself,  I  will  stand  here,  in  the  highway,  which  is  as  free  to  me  as  it  is  to  you,  and 
I  will  tax  your  land,  not  to  your  heart's  content,  but  to  mine,  and  spend  the  proceeds 
as  I  please.    I  cannot  enter  upon  it  myself,  but  I  will  send  the  Sheriff  of  the  county, 
and  he  shall  enter  upon  it,  and  do  what  I  cannot  do  in  my  own  person."    Sir,  is 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


319 


this  to  be  endured  ?  It  is  not  to  be  endured.  And  unless  I  am  ignorant  of  the  cha- 
racter and  the  feehngs,  and  of  what  is  dearer  to  me  than  all,  of  the  prejudices  of  the 
people  of  the  lower  "country,  it  will  not  be  endured.  You  may  as  well  adjourn  sine 
die.  We  are  too  old  birds  to  be  taken  with  chaff,  or  else  we  are  not  old  enough,  I 
don't  know  which.  We  will  not  give  up  this  question  for  the  certainty,  and  far  less 
for  the  hope,  that  the  evil  will  be  rectified  in  the  other  branch  of  the  Legislature. 
We  know,  every  body  knows,  that  it  is  impossible.  Why,  Sir,  the  British  House  of 
Peers,  which  contains  four  hundred  members,  holding  a  vast  property,  much  more 
now,  it  is  true,  than  when  Chatliam  said,  they  were  but  as  a  drop  m  the  ocean,  com- 
pared with  the  wealth  of  the  Commons  :  If  they,  holding  their  seats  for  life,  and  re- 
ceiving and  transmitting  them  by  hereditary  descent,  have  never  been  able  to  resist 
the  House  of  Commons,  in  any  measure  on  which  that  House  chose  to  insist,  do  you 
believe  that  twenty-four  gentlemen  up-stairs,  can  resist  one  hundred  and  twenty  be- 
low especially  when  the  one  hundred  and  twenty  represent  their  own  districts,  and 
are  to  go  home  with  them  to  their  common  constituents.?  Sir,  the  case  has  never 
yet  happened,  I  believe,  when  a  Senator  has  been  able  to  resist  the  united  delegation 
from  his  district  in  the  lower  House. 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  am  a  practical  man.  I  go  for  solid  security,  and  I  never  will, 
knowingly,  take  any  other.  But,  if  the  security  on  which  I  have  relied,  is  insuffici- 
ent, and  my  property  is  in  danger,  it  is  better  that  I  should  know  it  in  time,  and  I  may 
prepare  to  meet  the  consequences,  while  it  is  yet  called  to-day,  than  to  rest  on  a  se- 
curity that  is  fallacious  and  deceptive.  Sir,  I  would  not  give  a  button  for  your  mix- 
ed basis  in  the  Senate.  Give  up  this  question,  and  I  have  nothing  more  to  lose.  This 
is  the  entering  wedge,  and  every  thing  else  must  follow.  We  are  told,  indeed,  that-' 
we  must  rely  on  a  restriction  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage  ;  but,  gentlemen,  know,  that 
after  you  shall  have  adopted  the  report  of  the  Select  Committee,  you  can  place  no 
restriction  upon  it.  When  this  principle  is  in  Operation,  the  waters  are  out.  It  is  as 
if  you  would  ask  an  industrious  and  sagacious  Hollander,*  that  you  may  cut  his 
dykes,  provided  you  make  your  cut  only  of  a  certain  width.  A  rat  hole  will  let  in 
the  ocean.  Sir,  there  is  an  end  to  the  security  of  all  property  in  the  Commonwealth, 
and  he  will  be  unwise,  who  sliall  not  abandon  the  ship  to  the  underwriters.  It  is  the 
first  time  in  my  life,  that  I  ever  heard  of  a  Government,  which  was  to  divorce  pro- 
perty from  power.  Yet,  this  is  seriously  and  soberly  proposed  to  us.  Sir,  I  know  it 
is  practicable,  but  it  can  be  done  only  by  a  violent  divulsion,  as  in  France — but  the 
moment  you  have  separated  the  two,  that  very  moment  property  will  go  in  search  of 
power,  and  power  in  search  of  property.  "  Male  and  female  created  he  them  and 
the  two  sexes  do  not  more  certainly,  nor  by  a  more  unerring  law,  gravitate  to  each 
other,  than  power  and  property.  You  can  only  cause  them  to  change  hands.  I  could 
almost  v/ish,  indeed,  for  the  accommodation  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  that 
God  had  ordained  it  otherwise  ;  but  so  it  is,  and  so  it  is  obliged  to  be.  It  is  of  the  na- 
ture of  man.  INIan  always  has  been  m  societ}' — we  always  find  him  in  possession  of 
property,  and  with  a  certain  appetite  for  it,  which  leads  him  to  seek  it.  if  noi  per  faSy 
sometimes  per  tiefas  ;  and  hence  the  need  of  laws  to  protect  it,  and  to  punish  its  in- 
vaders. 

But,  I  am  subjecting  myself,  I  know,  to  a  most  serious  reproach.  It  will  be  said 
that  I  am  not  a  friend  to  the  poor.  Sir,  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  and  the  gen- 
tleman from  Spottsylvania,  have  dealt  with  the  "  friimds  of  the  people"  to  my  eiitire' 
satisfaction.  I  wish  to  say  a  word  as  to  the  "  friends  of  the  poor."  Whenever  I  see  a 
man,  especially  a  rich  man,  endeavoring  to  rise  and  to  acquire  consequence  in  socie- 
ty, by  standing  out  as  the  especial  champion  of  the  poor.  I  am  always  reminded  of  an 
old  acquaintance  of  mine,  one  Signor  Manuel  Ordonez,  v/ho  made  a  comfortable  liv- 
ing, and  amassed  an  opulent  fortune  by  administering  the  funds  of  the  poor.  Among 
the  strange  notions  which  have  been  broached  since  I  have  been  on  the  political  the- 
atre, there  is  one  which  has  lately  seized  the  minds  of  men,  that  all  things  must  be 
done  for  them  by  the  Government,  and  that  they  are  to  do  nothing  for  themselves : 
The  Government  is  not  only  to  attend  to  the  great  concerns  whiclTare  its  province, 
but  it  must  step  in  and  ease  individuals  of  their  natural  and  moral  obligations.  A 
more  pernicious  notion  cannot  prevail.  Look  at  that  ragged  fellow  staggering  from 
the  whiskey  shop,  and  see  that  slattern  who  has  gone  thereto  reclaim  him  ;  where 
are  their  children  ?  Running  about,  ragged,  idle,  ignorant,  fit  candidates  for  the  pe- 
nitentiary. Why  is  all  this  so  Ask  the  man  and  he  will  tell  you,  Oh,  the  Go- 
vernment has  undertaken  to  educate  our  children  for  us.  It  has  given  us  a  premium 
for  idleness,  and  I  now  spend  in  liquor,  v/hat  I  should  otherwise  be  obliged  to  save  to 
pay  for  their  schooling.  My  neighbor  there,  that  is  so  hard  at  work  in  his  field  yon- 
der with  his  son,  can't  spare  that  boy  to  attend,  except  in  the  winter  months,  the 
school  which  he  is  taxed  to  support  for  mine.  He  has  to  scuffle  hard  to  make  both 
ends  meet  at  the  end  of  the  year,  and  keep  the  wolf  from  the  door.    His  cliildren 

*Lookins  to  the  Chevalier  Huygens,  the  Dutch  Minister,  who  was  in  the  Hall. 


320 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


can't  go  to  this  school,  yet  he  has  to  pay  a  part  of  the  tax  to  maintain  it."  Sir,  is  it 
like  friends  of  the  poor  to  absolve  them  from  what  Nature,  what  God  himself  has 
made  their  first  and  most  sacred  duty?  For  the  education  of  their  children  is  the  first 
and  most  obvious  duty  of  every  parent,  and  one  which  tlie  worthless  alone  are  ever 
known  wholly  to  neglect. 

Mr.  Chairman,  these  will  be  deemed,  I  fear,  unconnected  thoughts  ;  but  they  have 
been  the  aliment  of  my  mind  for  years.  Rumination  and  digestion  can  do  no  more  ; 
they  are  thoroughly  concocted. 

In  the  course  of  not  a  short  or  uneventful  life,  I  have  had  correspondence  with  va- 
rious persons  in  all  parts  of  tlie  Union,  and  1  have  seen  gentlemen  on  their  return 
from  the  North  and  the  East,  as  well  as  from  the  new  States  of  the  West ;  and  I  ne- 
ver heard  from  any  of  them,  but  one  expression  of  opinion  as  it  related  to  us  in 
Virginia.  It  was  in  the  sentiment,  if  not  in  the  language  of  Virgil ;  Oh,  fortunate,  if 
we  knew  our  own  blessedness.  They  advise  us  with  one  voice,  "  Stick  to  what  you 
have  got ;  stick  to  your  Constitution  ;  stick  to  your  Right  of  Suffrage.  Don't  give 
up  your  freehold  representation.  We  have  seen  enough  of  the  opposite  system,  and 
too  much."  I  have  received  and  seen  letters  breathing  this  spirit  from  men  who  dare 
not  promulgate  such  a  sentiment  at  home,  because  it  would  only  destroy  their  hopes 
of  usefulness — from  North  Carolina,  from  South  Carolina,  from  Georgia,  from  Ala- 
bama, from  Pennsylvania  and  from  New  York. 

Sir,  the  day,  come  when  it  may,  which  sees  this  old  and  venerable  fabric  of 
ours  scattered  in  ruins,  and  the  mattock  and  the  spade  digging  the  foundation  for  a 
new  political  edifice,  will  be  a  day  of  jubilee  to  all  those  who  have  been,  and  who 
must  be  in  conflict  with  those  principles  which  have  given  to  Virginia  her  weight  and 
consequence,  both  at  home  and  abroad.  If  I  understand  aright  the  plans  winch  are 
in  agitation,  I  had  sooner  the  day  should  arrive,  that  must  close  my  eyes  forever,  than 
witness  their  accomplishment.  Yes,  Sir,  to  this  Constitution  we  owe  all  that  we  have 
preserved,  (much  I  know  is  lost  and  of  great  value,)  but  all  that  we  have  preserved 
from  the  wreck  of  our  political  fortunes.  This  is  the  mother  which  has  reared  all  our 
great  men.  Well  may  she  be  called  magna  mater  virum.  She  has,  indeed,  produced 
men,  and  mighty  men. 

But,  I  am  told,  that  so  far  is  this  from  being  true,  we  have  been  living  for  fifty-four 
years  under  a  Government  which  has  no  manner  of  authority,  and  is  a  mere  usurpa- 
tion at  best.  Yet,  Sir,  during  that  time,  we  have  changed  our  Government;  and  I 
call  the  attention  of  this  body  to  the  manner  in  which  that  change  was  made.  The 
Constitution  of  '88  was  submitted  to  the  people,  and  a  Convention  was  called  to  ratify 
it,  and  what  was  that  Convention  ^  It  was  the  old  House  of  Burgesses  with  a  nick- 
name— the  old  House  of  Delegates,  Sir,  with  a  nickname — in  which  the  same  muni- 
cipal divisions  of  the  State  were  regarded — the  same  qualifications  required — the  same 
qualified  freeholders  were  returned  from  the  same  districts  and  by  the  same  she- 
riffs— and  yet,  by  tiie  waving  of  a  magic  wand,  they  were  converted  into  a  Conven- 
tion— in  which  Warwick  was  made  equal  with  Calpeper,  then  by  far  the  largest  coun- 
ty in  the  State.  Do  not  gentlemen  see  where  the  point  of  their  own  argument  leads 
to  .''  If  it  is  a  sine  qua  non  of  a  legitimate  Government,  that  it  must  have  the  assent 
of  a  majority  of  the  people  told  by  the  head,  then  is  the  Federal  Government  an 
usurpation — to  which  the  people  ]jcr  capita — King  Numbers — has  never  given  his  as- 
sent. 

It  is  now  thought  necessary  to  have  another  Convention,  and  what  is  it.''  It  is 
nothing  but  the  Senate  of  Virginia,  elected  from  the  same  districts,  by  the  same  vo- 
ters, and  returned  by  the  same  sheriffs ;  many  of  them  the  self-same  men  ;  yet  when 
multiplied  by  four,  by  talismanic  touch,  they  become  a  Convention.  Yes,  Sir.  You 
can't  trust  the  House  of  Delegates  and  Senate  with  your  affairs,  but  you  can  trust  a 
smaller  body.  You  can't  trust  the  whole,  but  you  can  trust  a  part.  You  can't  trust 
tlie  Senate,  but  you  can  trust  the  same  men,  from  the  same  districts,  if  multiplied  by 
four.  Sir,  are  we  men  Or,  are  we  children  For  my  share,  this  is  the  first  Con- 
vention in  which  I  ever  had  a  seat ;  and  I  trust  in  God,  it  will  be  the  last.  I  never  had 
any  taste  for  Conventions;  or  for  new  Constitutions,  made  per  order,  or  kept  ready 
made,  to  suit  casual  customers.  I  need  not  tell  ijoii,  Sir,  that  I  was  not  a  member  of 
the  Staunton  Convention.  No,  Sir,  nor  was  I  a  member  of  the  Harrisburg  Conven- 
tion— nor  the  Charlottesville  Convention.  No,  Sir,  nor  the  Anti-Jackson  Convention 
— though  I  had  the  honor,  in  very  good  company,  of  being  put  to  the  ban  and  ana-" 
thema  of  that  august  Assembly — and  when,  to  their  very  great  surprise  and  alarm, 
we  returned  their  fire — they  scattered  like  a  flock  of  wild  geese. 

Mr.  Chairman,  the  wisest  thing  this  body  could  do,  would  be  to  return  to  the  peo- 
ple from  whom  they  came,  re  infccta.  I  am  very  willing  to  lend  my  aid  to  any  very 
small  and  moderate  reforms,  which  I  can  be  made  to  believe  that  this  our  ancient  Go- 
vernment requires.  But,  far  better  would  it  be  that  they  were  never  made,  and  that 
our  Constitution  remained  unchangeable  like  that  of  Lycurgus,  than  that  we  should 
break  in  upon  the  main  pillars  of  the  edifice. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


mi 


Sir,  I  have  exhausted  myself,  and  tired  you.  I  am  physically  unable  to  recall  or 
to  express  the  few  thoughts  I  brought  with  me  to  this  Assembly.  Sir,  that  great 
master  of  the  human  heart,  who  seemed  to  know  it,  as  well  as  if  he  had  made  it,  I 
mean  Shakespeare — when  he  brings  before  our  eyes  an  old  and  feeble  monarch,  not 
only  deserted,  but  oppressed  by  his  own  pampered  and  ungrateful  offspring,  describes 
him  as  finding  solace  and  succour,  only  in  his  discarded  and  disinherited  child.  If 
this,  our  venerable  parent,  must  perish,  deal  the  blow  who  will,  it  shall  never  be  given 
by  my  hand.  I  will  avert  it  if  I  can,  and  if  I  cannot,  in  the  sincerity  of  my  heart,  I 
declare,  I  am  ready  to  perish  with  it.  Yet,  as  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania  says, 
I  am  no  candidate  for  martyrdom.  I  am  too  old  a  man  to  remove  ;  my  associations, 
my  habits,  and  my  property,  nail  me  to  the  Commonwealth.  But,  were  I  a  young 
man,  1  would,  in  case  this  monstrous  tyranny  shall  be  imposed  upon  us,  do  what  a 
few  years  ago  I  should  have  thought  parricidal.  I  would  withdraw  from  your  juris- 
diction. I  would  not  live  under  King  Numbers.  I  would  not  be  his  steward — nor 
make  him  my  task-master.  I  would  obey  the  principle  of  self-preservation — a  prin- 
ciple we  find  even  in  the  brute  creation,  in  flying  from  this  mischief. 

Gentlemen  seem  to  press  the  question — let  it,  for  me,  be  taken.  It  was  only  be- 
cause I  felt  unwilling  to  delay  the  Committee  to  another  week,  that  I  have  been  in- 
duced now  to  address  them  under  every  disadvantage. 

It  being  now  past  four  o'clock, 

The  question  was  called  for  on  all  sides;  it  was  accordingly  taken,  after  having 
been  distinctly  announced  from  the  Chair  ;  and  the  votes,  (as  counted  by  Mr.  Fitzhugh 
and  Mr.  Loyall.)  stood  as  follows  :  Ayes  47,  Noes  47. 

Whereupon,  the  Chairman  giving  his  casting  vote  in  the  negative,  the  amendment 
of  Mr.  Green,  proposing  that,  in  the  apportionment  of  representation  in  the  House 
of  Delegates,  regard  shall  be  had  to  wliite  population  U7id  taxation  combined.)'  was  re- 
jected in  Committee  of  the  Whole. 

[  N.  B.  There  must  have  been  an  error  in  the  count,  as  the  whole  Convention, 
consisting  of  ninety-six  members,  was  present.  The  true  vote,  as  since  ascertained, 
was  47  Ayes,  and  49  Noes.  ] 

Mr.  Scott  of  Fauquier,  moved  an  amendment  to  the  first  resolution  reported  by  the 
Legislative  Committee,  to  insert  after  the  word  "  exclusively,"  the  words  and  in  the 
Senate  to  taxation  exclusively,"  to  make  the  whole  resolution  read  : 

"  Resolved,  That  in  the  apportionment  of  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates, 
regard  shall  be  had  to  white  population  exclusively  ;  and  m  the  Senate  to  taxation  ex- 
clusively." 

Mr.  Leigh  now  moved  that  the  Committee  rise. 

It  rose  accordingly,  and  thereupon  the  House  adjourned. 


MONDAY,  November  16,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Armstrong  of  the  Presbyterian  Church. 

The  President  laid  before  the  Convention  a  letter  from  Elisha  Bates,  a  preacher  be- 
longing to  the  Friends'  Society,  in  the  following  words  : 

RiciiMOxVD,  11th  Mo.  10th,  18.29. 

Respected  Friend, 

James  Monroe,  President  of  the  Convention : 

Elisha  Bates,  a  minister  in  the  Religious  Society  of  Friends,  respectfully  requests 
the  opportunity  of  a  religious  meeting,  with  the  members  of  the  Convention,  this 
evening,  at  five  o'clock. 

ELISHA  BATES. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Dromgoole,  the  letter  was  laid  upon  the  table. 

Mr.  Henderson  of  Loudoun,  presented  a  memorial  from  the  non-freeholders  of  that 
county,  on  the  subject  of  tlie  extension  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  which,  on  his  mo- 
tion, was  referred  to  the  Committee  of  the  "Whole. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Scott,  the  House  then  resolved  itself  into  a  Committee  of  the 
Whole,  Mr.  Powell  in  the  Chair ;  and  the  question  being  on  the  amendment  offered 
yesterday  by  Mr.  Scott,  which  proposed  to  add  to  the  first  resolution  reported  by  the 
Legislative  Committee,  the  words  "  and  in  the  Senate  to  taxation  exclusively" — so 
as  to  make  it  read  : 

"  Resolved,  That  in  the  apportionment  of  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates, 
regard  shall  be  had  to  white  popvlation  exclusively,  and  in  the  Senate  to  taxation  ez- 
cliisivcly.'' 

41 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTIOBf, 


Mr.  Scott  asked  and  obtained  leave  to  withdraw  his  amendment. 
And  the  question  recurring  on  the  original  resolution, 

Mr.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield  moved  to  amend  it,  by  striking  out  all  after  the  words 
"  Resolved  that,"  and  inserting  in  lieu  thereof,  as  follows  : 

•  "  representation  (in  the  House  of  Delegates)  be  apportioned  among  the  se- 
veral counties,  cities  and  towns  of  the  Comraonwealtli,  according  to  their  respective 
numbers,  which  shall  be  determined  by  adding  to  the  whole  number  of  free  persons, 
including  those  bound  to  service  for  a  term  of  years,  and  excluding  Indians  not  taxed, 
three-fifths  of  all  other  persons." 

In  supporting  the  amendment,  Mr.  Leigh  observed,  that  it  had  already  been  ex- 
plained to  the  Committee,  that  the  general  result  of  the  scheme  he  proposed,  when 
applied  to  the  present  circumstances  of  the  Commonwealth,  jvould  be,  substantially, 
the  same  as  that  derived  from  the  adoption  of  the  plan  of  tlie  compound  basis,  which 
had  been  rejected  by  the  Committee.  My  motive,  said  Mr.  L.  in  presenting-  this 
amendment,  is  to  try  the  sense  of  the  Committee  in  reference  to  the  adoption  of  the 
Federal  nnmber,  as  the  basis  of  representation.  The  proposition  varies  in  one  parti- 
cular from  that  of  my  friend  from  Culpeper,  (Mr.  Green.)  In  the  debate  on  his 
amendment,  it  was  suggested,  by  way  of  objection,  that  the  plan  of  a  mixed  basis 
put  it  in  the  power  of  the  delegation  from  the  Eastern  part  of  the  State,  by  avoiding 
to  tax  the  Western  districts,  to  keep  the  weight  of  power  constantly  in  the  East  j 
and  that  such  was  the  desire  of  the  inhabitants  of  that  part  of  the  State  to  retain  the 
power  in  their  own  hands,  (manifested,  as  was  said,  by  their  general  opposition  to  th© 
call  of  this  Convention,)  that  we  might  expect,,  in  future,  a  majority  of  the  Legisla- 
ture to  be  anxious  to  lay  the  heavier  burdens  on  the  East,  and  the  lighter  on  the  West. 
This  was  urged  as  an  objection,  not  so  much  against  the  principle  of  the  scheme,  as 
one  likely  to  operate  in  its  practical  details.  And  I  am  not  sure  but  that  some,  per- 
haps several,  voted  not  against  the  principle  of  the  mixed  basis,  but  against  the  incon- 
venience and  abuse  of  power  that  might  grow  out  of  the  applieation  of  the  prin- 
ciple. Without  entering  into  that  argument,  I  shall  be  content  to  substitute  for  the 
mixed  basis,  against  which  this  objection  is  tiiought  to  be,  a  basis  on  the  Federal  num- 
ber. I  am  satisfied  it  is  a  wise  provision  in  the  Federal  Constitution,  and  that  here^ 
its  results  will  be  as  beneficial  as  those  of  any  other  scheme  :  and  it  is  recommended 
to  my  mind  by  the  facility  and  certainty  with  which  it  can  be  applied  in  practice. 
The  plan  has  long  been  in  operation  amongst  us;  we  are  acquainted  with  its  effect; 
and  I  earnestly  hope  that  it  may  be  adopted  by  the  Committee. 
Mr.  Nicholas  rose  in  support  of  the  amendment. 

Ever  since  I  have  taken  my  seat,  said  he,  in  this  Convention,  I  have  felt  a  very 
awful  sense  of  my  personal  responsibility.  I  have  felt  it,  not  only  as  one  represent- 
ing a  portion  of  the  Commonwealth,  and  therefore,  in  reference  to  the  whole  State^ 
but  in  a  peculiar  maimer,  with  regard  to  the  particular  district  I  have  the  koaor  in 
part  to  represent.  The  change  now  contemplated  in  oar  institutions,  is  radical  in  its 
nature.  We  are  called  upon  to  change  the  whole  system  of  our  civil  polity :  and 
give  me  leave  to  say,  that,  superadded  to  my  responsibility  as  a  citizen  of  the  Com- 
m.mwealth,  at  present,  I  arn  called  to  decide  a  question  which  must  affect  the  peace 
and  happ'.ness  of  our  remotest  posterity.  Besides,  Sir,  I  am  the  representative  of 
one  of  thf  se  districts  which  must  suffer  most,  should  the  change  be  adopted.  On 
the  issue  of  our  present  proceeding,  will,  in  a  great  measure,  depend  the  future  peace 
and  tranquillity  of  the  State  :  and  though  i  have  not  the  vanity  to  believe  that  I  can 
bring  to  the  Committee  any  thing  worthy  of  them,  and  should  greatly  have  preferred 
to  listen  to  the  wisdom  of  others,  than  to  present  my  own  crude  remarks,  still,  had  it 
not  been  for  the  feeble  state  of  my  health,  for  many  days  past,  I  should  have  held  it 
to  be  my  duty  to  make  at  least  a  feeble  effort  in  behalf  of  those,  who  have  honored 
me  with  a  seat  on  this  floor. 

Sir,  we  have  arrived  at  an  awful  period  in  our  deliberations.  It  was  predicted  by 
my  honorable  friend  fiom  Charlotte,  (Mr.  Randolph.)  whose  solemn  appeal,  so  re- 
cently addressed  to  us,  left  a  deep  impression  on  my  mind,  that  the  rejection  of  the 
amendment  would  be  effected  by  a  majority  of  one,  or  at  most,  of  two  votes.  The 
fact  has  justified  that  prediction  ;  and,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  cannot  conceive  a  more  awful 
state  of  any  country,  than  that  it  should  be  about  to  change  its  fundamental  law,  by 
such  a  majority  :  to  change  its  entire  Constitution,  when  07ie  half  of  the  country 
vote  against  the  change.  So  meagre  a  majority,  made  up,  not  of  Delegates  coming 
from  beyond  the  Blue  Ridge,  but,  in  part,  by  the  addition  of  members  from  this  aide 
the  mountain,  members  on  whom  we  fondly  counted,  as  being  our  natural  allies,  (I 
cast  no  censure  on  their  conduct,  I  know  that  they  act  conscientioudy,  and  I  presume 
that  they  speak  the  wishes  of  their  constituents  ;)  I  say,  so  meagre  a  majority  plainly 
shows  what  is  the  sense  of  the  country,  as  to  a  change  in  its  Constitution.  And  can 
it  be  wise  to  effect  so  radical  a  change,  when  half  the  country  pronounces  it  to  be 
unwise  ?  When  they  loudly  declare  that  the  change  will  subvert  the  rights,  prostrate 
the  interests,  and  destroy  the  happiness  of  one  half  the  State  ?    What  muat  be  our 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION". 


323 


situation,  if  w«  adopt  such  a  measure  ?  Can  we  ever  be  a  liappy  and  tranquil  com- 
munity, while  one-half  its  members  conscientiously  believe,  that  the  change  we  shall 
have  made,  has  not  only  injured  their  interests,  but  destroyed  all  prospect  of  quitt 
and  happiness  ?  Surely  we  all  must  know,  that  no  country  e%^er  can  prosper  under 
such  circumstances.  The  best,  the  only  effectual  support  of  any  Government,  is  in 
the  confidence  of  the  people  ;  but  when  the  people  believe  themselves  oppressed  by 
the  Government,  what  prospect  can  there  be  of  their  yielding  it  a  cordial  and  enduring 
support  ?  What  can  we  look  forward  to,  but  eternal  jealousies  and  animosities  ?  Can 
any  wise  man,  however  wedded  he  may  be  to  his  own  theories,  can  any  good  man, 
wish  to  see  the  Commonwealth  in  such  a  situation  ? 

Mr.  Chairman,  1  am  one  of  those  who  believed  it  unwise  to  call  this  Convention. 
I  do  not  say,  and  never  did  say,  that  our  Government  is  perfect  theoretically  ;  that  it 
is  absolutely  free  from  all  defects.  But  everj^  wise  Statesman,  in  judging  of  a  system 
of  Government,  will  look  to  the  ickoie  of  that  system.  He  will  form  his  estimate  of 
all  the  good  it  contains,  and  then  he  will  determine  whether  that  amount  of  practical 
good  does  not  overbalance  any  merely  theoretical  objections.  It  was  on  this  ground, 
that  1  was  opposed  to  the  call  of  a  Convention.  This  business  of  theoretical  perfec« 
tion,  may  have  an  inviting  appearance ;  but  all  experience  proves,  that  absolute  per- 
fection is  unattainable — a  mere  igiiis  fatuus — that  must  lead  to  disappointment,  and, 
ultimately,  to  misery,  and  public  convulsions.  Lycurgus  and  Solon,  were  supposed 
to  be  among  the  wisest  men  of  their  day,  and  they  established  Governments  on  v/hat 
tliey  thought  a  system  of  absolute  perfection;  but  what  has  become  of  them.?  Where 
are  all  the  ancient  Republics  1  They  are  gone,  and  in  their  room  has  come  the  most 
frightful  despotism.  Wisdom  surelj*  dictates,  that  when  we  have  enjoyed  a  practical 
good  more  than  half  a  century,  we  should  not  give  it  up  for  what  theorists  may  re- 
commend to  us.  The  Government  of  Solon  did  not  last  even  during  his  life  ;  the 
liberties  of  his  people  were  usurped  b}^  Pisistratus  during  his  own  life-time. 

It  has  been  said,  that  the  object  of  some  gentlemen,  who  have  attended  this  body, 
is  merely  to  prevent  any  thing  from  being  done.  That  is  not  my  case.  I  did  oppose 
the  calling  of  the  Convention  ;  but  when  the  people  said  that  it  should  be  assembled, 
I  came  here  with  the  honest  intention  to  stick  to  what  was  good  in  the  Constitution, 
and  this  I  mean  to  do  as  long  as  possible.  The  gentleman  from  Charlotte,  (Mr. 
Randolph)  laid  down  a  rule  which,  1  think,  was  fall  of  practical  wisdom.  He  asked,  . 
whether  we  will  reform  our  Government,  on  mere  theory.?  And  he  said,  (and  so  I 
say.)  no  :  but  let  us  first  see  some  practical  evil :  and  when  it  is  clearly  proved,  then 
let  us  reform  our  Government  in  that  particular  respect  and  in  that  only."  I  have 
once  been  an  ofScer  under  the  Government  for  twenty  years — I  v^-as  Attorney  Gene» 
ral  of  the  vState  at  an  early  period  of  my  life,  (and  if  I  ever  did,  I  certainly  did  not 
then  deserve  the  trust ;)  but  the  situation  afforded  me  a  good  opportunity  to  judcre, 
from  observation,  of  the  practical  effect  of  this  Government.  And  I  declare  to  God^ 
that  in  the  whole  period  of  those  twenty  years,  I  knew  of  no  instance  of  oppression, 
or  injury  to  any  man's  rights  caused  hj  the  operation  of  the  Government.  It  is  net 
then  wonderful  that  I  should  part  from  it  with  reluctance. 

Permit  me  now  to  make  a  fev/  observations,  on  the  amendment  offered  by  the  gen- 
tleman from  Chesterfield. 

I  was  always  of  opinion,  that  the  true  ground  of  representation  was  that  of  the 
Federal  number.  I  voted  in  favour  of  the  mixed  basis,  because  it  appeared  to  me 
that  it  mio;ht  have  the  effect  of  securing  the  rights  of  the  Eastern  portion  of  the  Com-  "  r 
monwealth  :  and  not  because  I  preferred  it.  The  other  mode  had  mv  decided  pre- 
ference. The  Federal  number  was  adopted  from  considerations  which  operate  in 
what  is  now  before  this  body.  It  was  not  adopted  on  grounds  of  compromise.  Look 
at  the  speeches  of  that  day  :  look  at  the  number  of  the  Federalist  on  that  subject :  it 
was  fixed  uoon  not  as  a  compromise,  but  as  being  in  itself  the  correct  basis  of  repre- 
sentation. ^Here  we  have  both  property  and  persons  protected  :  and  here,  we  find, 
the  happy  medium  between  the  two  extremes  of  universal  suffrage  and  aristocratic 
Government. 

It  was  the  ground  taken  by  gentlemen  from  the  North  (all  of  them  strongly  preju- 
diced against'slavery,)  as  a  ground  which  afforded  a  just  protection  to  property.  The 
principFe  was  viewed  not  only  as  vital  to  the  Southern  States,  but  as  a  fair  principle 
for  all.  Any  gentleman  who  will  look  at  the  debates  of  the  Federal  Convention,  will 
find  full  evidence  that  it  was  not  a  compromise.  The  United  States'  Government, 
thouo-h  in  many  features  of  it,  it  is  Federal,  is,  in  others  a  JVatioiu/I  Government. 
Representation  is  one  of  those  features.  In  its  representation,  it  is  National,  and  not 
Federal.  Its  representation  is  not  founded  upon  concessions  of  one  State  to  another 
State,  but  is  laid  as  a  correct  basis  for  the  whole.  The  mixed  basis,  as  proposed  by 
the  gentleman  from  Culpeper.  must  necessarily  be  fluctuating  and  very  hard  to  re- 
duce to  practice.  The  taxes  will  of\en  differ  in  the  same  district.  The  whole  basis 
must  be  eternally  fluctuating,  and  will  require  to  be  re-adjusted  from  time  to  time. 
But  the  ratio  of  three-fifths  of  the  slaves  furnishes  a  certain  criterion,  that  is  easily 


324 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


measured,  and  cannot  change.  Gentlemen  represent  this  proposition  as  unjust,  and 
fit  for  one  portion  of  the  Commonwealth  only  ;  but  this  is  not  true.  We  do  not  say- 
that  the  Eastern  part  of  the  State  only  shall  have  the  three-fifths  added,  but  that  all 
the  Commonwealth  shall ;  wherever  there  are  slaves,  there  the  principle  will  take 
effect ;  and  if,  as  has  been  very  ingeniously  represented,  it  be,  indeed,  probable,  that 
the  slaves  will  go  beyond  the  mountain  the  moment  they  do  so,  the  West  gets  the 
power.  Indeed,  this  argument  of  theirs,  appeared  to  me  at  the  time,  to  be  feio  de  se, 
or  else,  to  be  in  opposition  to  the  other  arguments  adduced  by  them  in  favour  of  a 
white  basis.  If  the  slaves  shall  emigrate,  every  five  slaves  that  pass  over  the  moun- 
tain, give  them  additional  representation.  The  rule  is  general,  and  operates  alike  on 
all. 

I  said,  we  had  arrived  at  an  awful  period  in  our  deliberations.  Yes,  Sir,  we  have 
reached  the  brink  of  a  precipice.  Gentlemen  must  here  decide  for  themselves  ;  anji 
I  put  it  to  gentlemen  of  the  West,  whether  they  will  consent  to  form  an  entirely 
new  Constitution  for  the  State  by  a  majority  of  one,  or  of  two,  or  of  five,  or  ten  ?  It 
is  an  awful  responsibility  lor  them  ;  and  all  the  ills  which  may  grow  out  of  it,  be  on 
their  heads  !  I  say  this,  not  in  anger,  but  in  sorrow.  Some  of  my  dearest  friends  and 
nearest  relatives,  reside  beyond  the  Blue  Ridge.  I  deprecate  the  calamity  which  I 
behold  impending,  for  their  sakes,  as  much  as  my  own. 

Much  has  been  said  as  to  the  moral  influence  of  Virginia.  I  believe,  she  has  fre- 
quently saved  the  Union  ;  and  though  gentlemen  are  pleased  to  say,  that  she  is  retro- 
grading in  wealth  and  influence,  we  have  this  proud  consolation,  that  if  we  have  re- 
fused the  lures  and  boons  of  the  General  Government,  we  are  at  least  poor  on  princi- 
ple. Virginia  may  be  a  victim  to  her  honour,  but  I,  for  one,  hope  she  may  be  poor 
forever,  if  slie  can  only  become  rich  at  the  sacrifice  of  her  principles. 

Gentlemen  are  under  a  great  mistake,  if  they  impute  to  me  any  wish  for  confusion, 
or  any  desire  that  we  may  make  a  change  that  shall  prove  unpalatable  to  the  people. 
But,  we,  whose  districts  are  to  be  sacrificed,  have  an  important  duty  which  we  owe  to 
our  constituents.  I  am  disposed  to  conciliate.  I  wish  the  State  to  remain  united. 
I  had  rather  be  the  citizen  of  a  great  Commonwealth  than  a  petty  State.  But,  there 
is  something  yet  better  than  union.  Oppression  is  worse  than  division.  I  am  ready 
to  go  as  far  for  conciliation  as  any,  but  I  am  not  ready  to  offer  up  my  country  as  the 
sacrifice.  I  think  it  vastly  better,  that  freedom  should  be  preserved,  even  if  disunion 
must  be  the  price.  I  speak,  God  knows,  with  affliction  at  my  heart.  But,  how  is 
this  evil  to  be  averted  ?  Here  we  are  arrayed  against  each  other.  The  West  ad- 
vances its  demands,  and  they  say,  there  are  provisions  which  we  must  have."  The 
East  remonstrates,  and  says,  ''you  will  destroy  us."  To  every  compromise  there 
must  be  two  parties;  but  do  we  hear  one  whisper,  aye,  so  much  as  one  low  voice, 
that  talks  of  compromise  ?  No.  Gentlemen  stand  on  their  rights  :  they  stand  perfectly 
stationary  :  they  call  to  us  to  come  up  to  them  :  but  that  we  never  can.  I  am  willing 
to  adjust  the  difference.  Do  gentlemen  ask  how  ?  By  a  plan  which  shall  give  se- 
curity to  the  East,  for  the  preservation  of  all  that  is  dear  to  them  and  their  posterity. 
While  we  shape  our  course  towards  conciliation,  we  must  have  effectual  security. 
All  security  from  equality  of  taxation,  is  purely  imaginary.  What  boots  it  to  us,  that 
the  taxes  are  made  equal,  if  they  are  all  to  be  paid  by  one  part  of  the  State  ?  It 
would  be  the  interest  of  the  West,  to  pay  even  a  heavy  taxation,  if  they  are  to 
have  the  sole  distribution  of  the  money  raised.  The  only  possible  security,  is  to  give 
us  such  a  share  in  the  administration  of  affairs,  as  shall  ensure  a  good  and  just  Gov- 
ernment ;  as  will  secure  to  us  the  rights  which  we  believe  to  be  in  jeopardy. 

Let  me  say,  in  conclusion,  that  whatever  vote  I  may  give  in  the  final  issue,  I  re- 
serve to  myself  the  right,  first  to  see  the  lahole  extent  of  the  security  gentlemen  pro- 
pose to  give  :  and,  then,  when  they  have  modified  their  proposition  into  its  last  form, 
then  comes  the  awful  question,  is  this  security  adequate  ?  If  I  shall  judge  that  it  is 
not,  I  never  will  give  my  assent  to  any  system  which  will  jeopardize  the  rights  of  my 
constituents. 

Mr.  Monroe,  now  rose  and  addressed  the  Committee,  in  substance,  as  follows  : 
Mr.  Chairman  :  The  House,  I  hope,  will  indulge  me  in  a  few  remarks.  I  will  pro- 
mise to  be  very  concise.  My  faculties  of  debate,  always  humble,  have  been  impaired 
by  long  disuse  while  I  occupied  another  station  in  the  public  service,  and  have,  of 
late  years,  been  yet  farther  weakened  by  bodily  infirmity  ;  yet  duty  impels  me  to 
make  some  remarks  on  this  occasion.  They  shall  be  but  few,  and  more  a  sentiment 
than  an  oration.  My  situation  is  one  of  peculiar  delicacy  as  it  relates  to  my  constitu- 
ents, and  my  country.  When  I  retired  from  the  office  I  last  held,  it  was  with  the 
expectation  that  that  retirement  would  be  permanent.  My  age  admonished  me  that 
it  was  welcome  and  becoming.  When  I  received  an  invitation  to  come  here,  (for  the 
seat  I  hold  was  not  sought  by  me,)  I  consented  with  regret,  for  causes  which  must  be 
obvious  to  all.  Yet  I  would  not  shrink  from  the  call  of  my  fellow-citizens,  and  at 
their  call  I  came.    But  it  was  with  the  disposition  to  look  to  the  whole  Common* 


DEBATES   OT   THE  CONVENTION. 


325 


wealth  -  from  the  Potomac  to  the  Roanoke,  from  the  mountams  to  the  ocean,  from 
Kanawha,  to  Monono-alia,  from  the  Blue  Ridge  to  the  Ohio ;  all  was  one  to  me. 

I  could  have  been  content  to  reside  in  any  part  of  the  Commonwealth,  i  leit  one 
part  of  it,  where  I  had  spent  the  greater  part  of  my  hfe,  for  another,  where  i  was  al- 
most unknown.  Its  citizens  kindly  manifested  their  confidence,  and  I  came  with  a 
disposition  to  look  to  the  interests  of  the  whole.  I  consider  myself  as  their  servant, 
and  I  consider  them,  as  having  a  right  to  instruct  me.  If  they  should  think  fit  to  do 
so,  I  shall  either  obey  them  or  withdraw  from  this  Assembly.  When  I  find  myself 
in  that  dilemma,  I  shall  do  so  without  a  word.  But  I  do  not  know  that  it  wilUrrive. 
In  the  course  I  shall  pursue  here,  I  shall  make  it  my  principle  to  look  to^the  Stute  at 
laro-e.  I  shall  look  also,  to  the  divisions  and  to  the  state  of  acrimonious  feeling  which 
exilted,  long  before  the  calhng  of  this  Convention,  and  which  I  consider  this  body  as 
having  a  tendency  to  tranquilize. 

My'idea  has  been,  that  it  will  be  wise  to  base  representation  on  the  white  popula- 
tion in  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  to  place  an  adequate  check  on  the  result  of  their 
deliberations  in  the  Senate.  This  is  my  opinion.  By  basing  the  representation  on 
the  white  population,  we  are  resting  on  principle  ;  on  a  principle  corresponding  with 
the  Bill  of  Rights  and  with  the  Constitution ;  for,  our  Government  is  in  the  hands  of 
the  white  people.  We  shall  by  this  means  rest  on  fundamental  principles,  and  gratify 
the  feelings  of  the  people,  in  every  part  of  the  community.  Our  Constitution  rests 
on  that  basis. 

And  by  whom  was  it  framed  ?  By  the  most  enlightened  of  our  citizens  ;  by  men 
who  have  given  proof  of  their  patriotism,  wisdom,  and  knowledge  of  niankind.  I 
wish  to  preserve  its  important  features  and  to  alter  it  as  little  as  may  be,  consider- 
ing that  it  was  the  first  of  our  Constitutions  ever  made  here,  and  will  be  an  example 
throuo-hall  ages.  Where  do  we  find  a  free  Government  in  history,  except  in  Greece, 
to  a  certain  degree  in  Carthage,  and  in  Rome'  Every  where  else  we  find  only  bar- 
barism, and  all  mankind  kept  in  a  state  of  degradation.  W' ith  this  example  before 
them,  these  men  framed  a  Constitution  better  than  had  ever  existed  before. 

By  resting  representation  on  the  wliite  population,  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  we 
leave  that  body  free  from  any  check  :  but  to  control  its  hasty  decision,  you  resort  to 
the  Senate,  and  therefore  I  thought  that  the  plan  of  the  mixed  basis,  ought  to  be  con- 
fined to  the  Senate.  For  my  part,  I  am  ready  to  vote  for  it.  But  I  think  the  Fede- 
ral number  liable  to  fewer  objections.  It  makes  our  system  correspond  to  that  of  the 
Federal  Government.     It  is  more  easy  of  execution,  and  it  is  not  against  principle. 

By  adopting  the  vrhite  basis  in  tlie  House  of  Delegates,  we  shall  tranquilize  the 
people,  and  if  we  adopt  the  mixed  basis  in  the  Senate,  I  hope  that  the  other  gentle- 
men will  meet  us  there. 

I  hope,  Sir,  that  this  will  be  done.  Wliy  do  men  enter  into  society?  What  are 
their  objects,  whether  rude  or  civilized.^  Is  it  not  for  the  protection  of  life,  liber- 
ty and  property  ?  Is  not  this  the  declaration  of  our  Constitution  and  of  all  the  Con- 
stitutions since  adopted  throughout  the  United  States  ?  Is  there  any  other  motive 
for  society,  whether  rude  or  civiUzed .'  In  a  rude  state,  the  protection  of  life  is  the 
principal  motive,  but  even  there,  property  also  is  a  motive.  What  kind  of  Govern- 
ment do  we  find  prevailing  among  our  native  Indians  They  are  not  governed  by 
written  compacts,  but  the  principal  chief  or  elder  as  he  is  called  by  them,  rules  over 
the  tribe,  and  they  submit;  he  following  the  will  of  the  tribe. 

Look  at  civilized  society  :  is  the  obligation  to  submission  not  stronger  ?  Can  you 
separate  property  from  either  state  ?  There  is  a  diiference,  however.  In  the  rude 
state  of  society  there  is  the  game — all  is  open  and  free  to  all — and  property  exists 
only  round  their  cabins.  But,  what  is  the  case  witli  civilized  man  ?  There  man 
presses  on  man — society  presses  on  society  :  each  individual  must  have  somethina"  of 
his  own  or  he  starves.  There  the  people  are  the  guardians,  and  they  must  protect 
property,  as  well  as  life  and  liberty,  or  society  perishes. 

This  protection  is  in  no  degree  incompatible  with  the  adoption  of  the  white  basis 
of  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates  ;  and  I  hope  that  this  body  will  unite  in 
some  plan  that  may  correspond  to  the  general  views  of  the  community,  and  mav  cor- 
respond with  our  relations  to  the  General  Government,  for  which  I  have  a  very  high 
respect.  But,  I  know  the  duty  of  a  representative  to  his  constituents,  and,  I  hope, 
we  shall  all  draw  to  that  end — we  shall  gain  a  grand  object — and  it  may  lead  to  what 
we  cannot  tell.  I  would,  myself,  rather  have  a  representation  that  may  correspond 
to  the  Federal  number. 

It  has  been  suggested,  that  it  will  be  best  to  keep  the  qualification  of  voters  as  it 
exists  at  present,  or  to  reduce  it  but  in  a  small  degree.  I  differ  from  that  opinion.  I 
think  we  must  modify  and  reduce  it.  Wlio  are  they  who  are  pressino-  for  a  new  Con- 
stitution.? Those,  who  suppose  themselves  deprived  of  their  just  Ri^-ht  of  Sufiran-e, 
Reduce  the  requisites  for  this,  and  you  carry  tranquillity  into  the  bodj^of  the  commu- 
nity. Our  situation  in  reference  to  tliis  subject,  is  different  from  tliat  of  any  people 
who  ever  existed  before  us.    What  was  the  condition  of  the  ancient  republics  In 


326 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION, 


Greece,  Carthage,  and  Rome  ?  The  question  there  was,  whether  power  should  bo 
held  by  the  people  en  masse  ?  Whether  it  should  be  exercised  by  the  people  in  a 
body  ?  Their  Governments  originated  with  a  prince  or  with  the  nobles.  They  had 
always  great  weiglit ;  and  the  contest  was  between  the  rich  and  the  poor.  The  peo- 
ple origmated  no  measure — they  heard  what  was  proposed  by  the  prince,  but  they 
proposed  nothing.  In  Athens  they  had  what  has  been  called  a  tree  Senate — and  as 
to  Lacedsemon  it  was  the  same — tiie  same  thing  applies  to  Rome,  and  in  a  degree  to 
Carthage  ;  but  they  only  adopted  or  rejected  wliat  was  submitted  to  them.  1  lie  peo- 
ple had  no  stake  in  the  property  of  the  State,  it  was  all  in  the  hands  of  the  prince  or 
the  ancient  nobility. 

But  our  Government  is  in  the  hands  of  the  people.  We  have  no  privileged  orders. 
We  have  no  overgrown  wealthy  to  oppress  the  poor — and  they  cannot  do  it  if  we  fix 
the  grade  of  representation  on  a  moderate  scale.  The  President  of  the  United  States, 
the  Governor  of  the  State,  the  Senators,  all  are  servants  of  the  people.  The  property 
of  the  country  rests  on  the  people  alone.  Therefore,  I  say,  our  situation  is  diiterent 
from  that  of  all  who  ever  existed  before  us. 

I  would  adopt  a  plan  that  may  h  rmonize  the  feelings  of  the  community  on  the  sub- 
ject of  Suffrage,  and  of  representation  in  the  popular  branch.  I  would  place  a  check 
in  the  other  branch. 

I  tliought  it  ray  duty,  though  in  a  feeble  manner,  to  explain  these  views  to  the 
House — and  I  wish,  also,  that  my  sentiments  should  go  to  njy  constituents. 

Mr.  Tazewell  said,  that  when  he  came  to  the  House  this  mornnig,  he  had  but 
little  expectation,  and  certainly  not  the  slightest  inclination,  to  take  any  part  in  this 
debate.  He  had  not  felt  any  wish  to  participate  in  the  discussion  of  a  question  so 
general  and  undefined  in  its  terms,  as  that  which  the  Committee  would  soon  be  called 
upon  to  decide.  All  which  he  had  ever  seen  of  man,  and  all  the  inlormation 
which  he  had  ever  been  able  to  acquire  in  the  science  of  politics,  combined  to  teach 
him,  that  no  good  ever  had,  and  that  no  possible  good  ever  could,  result  from  the  dis- 
cussion of  any  mere  general  propositions,  in  order  to  elicit  by  such  discussion  an 
agreed  basis,  which,  by  mutual  consent,  might  be  adopted,  as  a  foundation  tor  some 
unknoiDii  practical,  political  scheme.  All  such  schemes,  when  fully  developed  (and 
developed  they  must  be  at  some  time  or  other,)  must  at  last  be  brouglit  to  the  test  of 
experience  and  utility  ;  and  as  it  ought  not  to  be  considered  as  constituting  any  just 
objection  to  any  useful  political  plan,  that  it  was  not  constructed  according  to  the  most 
nice  and  precise  rules  of  any  art,  so  nor  will  it  be  any  recommendation  of  any  other 
plan,  that  it  is  a  clear  syllogistic  deduction  from  any  supposed  general  truth.  If  the 
details  of  any  intended  scheme,  when  fairly  exhibited,  should  be  seen  to  be  mischie- 
vous, they  would  surely  be  rejected,  although  in  strict  accordance  with  the  agreed 
basis;  and  if  believed  to  be  good,  they  would  infallibly  be  adopted,  although  at  war 
with,  and  contrary  to,  all  the  admitted  general  truths  announced  by  SKch  basis.  Dis- 
cuss whatever  general  proposition  you  please,  settle  whatever  general  basis  you 
choose,  and  you  will  at  last  discover,  when  you  come  to  fix  the  details  of  the  plan, 
that  each  of  these  must  be  adjusted  by  a  regard  to  its  own  particular  merits,  and  by 
no  special  reference  to  any  general  rules.  Entertaining  these  opinions,  it  was  with 
much  regret  he  had  seen  at  first,  the  course  and  direction  intended  to  be  given  to  the 
deliberations  of  the  Convention  ;  and  he  had  then  almost  resolved,  to  say  not  one 
word  in  relation  to  the  matter  now  under  consideration,  until  it  should  assume  a  xnore 
certain  and  defined  form  than  it  yet  presents.  But  the  discussion  had  now  proceeded 
80  far,  that  it  would  perhaps  be  an  economy  of  time,  to  extend  it  a  little  farther ;  and 
by  endeavoring  to  show,  not  the  truth  or  falsehood,  but  the  tendency  and  effect  of 
the  general  proposition,  so  as  to  bring  our  future,  if  not  our  present  labors,  to  a  more 
speedy  termination,  than  they  seem  at  present  likely  to  reach.  It  was  with  this  view 
he  would  ask  the  attention  of  the  Committee  to  a  few  remarks  which  he  proposed  to 
address  to  them,  in  the  course  of  which,  he  would  notice  some  of  those  they  had  just 
heard  from  the  venerable  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  who  had  but  just  now  taken  his 
seat. 

Whatever  may  be  the  form  of  the  question  now  presented  to  us,  the  general  pro- 
position included  in  it  is;  what  is  the  proper  basis  whereon  to  erect  representation  in 
the  Legislative  Department  of  a  Government  designed  for  such  a  State  as  is  Virgi- 
nia.? In  examining  this  question,  a  most  apt  enquiry  at  once  presents  itself  to  our- 
consideration.  Upon  what  basis  is  such  representation  founded  now  ?  When  the 
venerable  member  from  Loudoun,  and  other  much  respected  gentlemen  on  every  side 
of  this  body,  unite  in  telling  us,  that  the  existing  Constitution  of  Virginia  is  the  best 
the  world  has  ever  seen—when  the  experience  of  many  here  assure  us,  that  this  Go- 
vernment has  endured  for  more  than  half  a  century,  producing  as  much  of  good  as 
could  be  expected  to  result  from  any  Government — and  when  not  a  solitary  witness 
has  appeared  to  testify  to  the  existence  of  a  single  mischief  as  its  effect— we  surely 
ought  to  examine  carefully  the  foundation  of  such  a  Government,  before  we  should 
wi§h  to  change  it,    For  his  part,  he  was  free  to  declare,  that  he  would  not  compare 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION, 


327 


the  knowledge  derived  from  such  experience,  with  that  obtained  by  an  examination 
of  the  visions  of  Plato  or  Aristotle,  the  theories  of  Locke  or  Sidney,  or  of  any  other 
mere  speculative  scheme  whatever. 

The  basis  of  representation  here,  was  estabhshed  more  than  two  centuries  since. 
It  rests  not  upon  a  prescription  of  fifty  odd  years  only,  as  his  friend  from  Charlotte 
had  supposed,  but  it  traces  back  its  origin  to  a  period  much  beyond  the  independence 
of  the  Commonwealth,  and  is  coeval  with  the  very  first  Legislative  Assembly  tiiat 
ever  convened  in  Virginia.  During  the  long  interval  that  has  since  elapsed,  repre- 
sentation itself  has  undergone  many  changes,  but  the  foundation  wherein  it  rests,  has 
ever  remained  the  same.  He  prayed  the  Commitiee.  therefore,  to  accompany  him  in 
the  enquiry  he  was  about  to  institute,  as  to  the  basis  whereon  this  ancient  scheme  of 
representation  was  erected. 

In  the  year  1619  or  1020,  the  first  House  of  Burgesses  assembled  at  Jamestown. 
The  members  of  that  body  were  elected  by  the  different  plantations  as  they  were  then 
called,  or  as  we  should  now  denominate" them,  the  difterent  settlements,  then  exist- 
ing in  the  Colony.  The  early  settlers  had  established  themselves  in  difierent  societies, 
aloag  the  margin  of  James  Kiver,  from  its  moutn  to  near  this  spot. 

These  societies,  separated  either  by  wide  water  courses,  ditficult  to  be  passed,  or 
by  thick  forests  dangerous  to  penetrate,  differed  widely  from  each  otiier,  in  the  num- 
bers of  their  population,  in  their  wealth,  and  in  the  extent  of  the  territory  occupied 
by  them  :  but  each  was  entitled  to  representation,  and  each  sent  its  Eurgess  to  tlie 
Grand  Assembly.  Variously  circumstanced,  while  each  had  a  common  interest  in  the 
prosperity  of  all,  each  had  also  a  particular  interest  peculiar  to  itself.  With  a  view 
of  enabhng  each  to  promote  the  good  of  all,  in  that  mode  whicli  would  be  most  suit- 
able to  its  own  convenience  ;  and  with  a  view  of  enabling  all  to  advance  the  prospe- 
rity of  each,  by  any  means  not  inconsistent  with  the  common  good,  representation 
was  allowed  to  every^  society  tiien  existing ;  and  this,  without  having  regard  to  the  popu- 
lation, or  the  wealth  of  any,  or  even  to  these  things  combined,  but  merely  to  the  pecu- 
Har  interests  existing  in  the  different  societies,  occupying  the  undefined  space,  then 
termed  a  plantation  or  settlement.  The  basis  of  representation,  then,  was  the  inter- 
ests of  the  different  plantations :  and  as  these  interests  were  various  and  pecuhar, 
each  interest  had  its  proper  representative,  whether  that  interest  concerned  many  or 
few  persons,  or  involved  much  or  little  wealth.  If  the  peculiar  interest  of  the  part, 
was  of  sufficient  importance  to  claim  the  regard  of  the  whole,  that  interest  was  enti- 
tled to,  and  was  ahowed  a  representative,  whether  tlie  population  of  the  plantation 
amounted  to  fifty  or  to  five  hundred  persons,  or  whether  their  wealth  was  £  luO  or 
£1,000. 

In  process  of  time,  the  different  settlements  became  extended  in  every  direction, 
and  were  so  brought  in  contact  with  each  other.  The  various  interests  then  existing 
in  the  Colony,  became  more  assimilated  and  consolidated  than  they  had  been  before  ; 
but  still  a  diversity  of  particular  interests  existed.  The  wants  and  wislies  of  the  set- 
tlers in  Accomack,  must  have  been  very  different  from  those  of  the  persons  dwelhng 
near  the  Falls  of  James  River,  and  the  pursuits  and  situation  of  the  iniiabitants  at 
Point  Comfort,  must  have  been  very  unlike  those  of  persons  abiding  far  from  them, 
on  the  other  side  of  the  great  water.  This  union  of  the  settlements,  had  superceded 
the  necessity  of  allowing  representation  to  each  of  what  had  been  the  difierent  plan- 
tations ;  but  the  reason  for  allowing  representation  to  the  various  interests  exist- 
ing in  the  Colony,  still  remained  as  before.  The  abode  of  these  different  interests, 
had,  indeed,  been  much  enlarged  and  extended  ;  but  the  interests  themselves,  re- 
mained still  various.  In  this  state  of  things,  public  convenience  required  a  new  di- 
vision of  the  settled  parts  of  the  Colony^ ;  and  accordingly,  in  1634,  it  was  divided, 
for  the  first  time,  into  eight  shires  or  counties,  as  they  were  afterwards  called.  These 
shires,  our  history  and  laws  inform  us,  were  very  different  in  extent  of  territory,  in 
the  numbers  of  their  respective  inhabitants,  and  in  the  taxable  property  possessed  by 
these  inhabitants  :  but  still  the  same  basis  of  representation  was  preserved.  Witliin 
eacli  of  these  shires,  a  pailicular  interest,  peculiar  to  itself,  was  supposed  to  exist ; 
and  to  that  peculiar  interest,  representation  was  allowed,  whatever  might  be  its  com- 
parative numbers,  or  wealth,  or  extent  of  territory. 

Pursuing  the  examination  further,  you  will  find,  that  as  the  frontier  counties  ex- 
tended into  the  wilderness,  new  interests  sprung  up  in  each.  The  pioneers  and  ad- 
vanced guards  of  the  society,  must  have  had  very  many  wants,  and  wishes,  and  necessi- 
ties, different  from  their  former  associates  in  the  same  count}^  The  advance  of  the 
one,  in  exposing  them  to  new  perils  and  difiiculties.  gave  peace  and  security  to  those 
they  left  behind ;  and  the  peculiar  interests  of  the  frontier  inhabitants  of  Northamp- 
ton, and  York,  and  Isle  of  Wight,  and  Henrico,  must  have  been  very  different  from 
those  of  their  brethren  in  the  oilier  parts  of  these  counties,  resting,  as  the  latter  did, 
upon  the  interior  shires.  Thus,  it  came  to  pass,  that  within  the  same  county,  where 
at  first,  a  single  interest  only  existed,  two  different  interests  arose.  If  both  these  in- 
terests were  to  be  represented  by  those  chosen  by  a  majority  of  the  two,  it  was  very 


328 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


certain,  that  one  of  these  two  would  be  neglected ;  and  hence  arose  the  necessity  for  di- 
viding the  frontier  counties,  by  such  lines,  as  might  allow  to  each  interest,  its  proper 
representation.  In  this  manner,  we  went  on  regularly  dividing  the  frontier  counties, 
as  new  interests  sprung  up  in  each,  until  the  whole  territory  of  Virginia  was  thus 
distributed. 

Nor  did  this  process  of  allowing  representation  to  every  peculiar  interest  in  the 
community  stop  here.  Whenever  an  interior  county  became  so  populous,  or  its  ter- 
ritory was  found  so  wide  spread,  as  to  justify  a  belief,  either  that  different  interests 
had  or  might  arise  within  it,  such  county  was  always  divided,  whensoever  a  division 
of  it  was  asked  for — nay,  in  many  cases  where  neither  the  extent  of  territory,  nor  the 
number  of  inhabitants  was  so  great,  as  to  render  it  probable  that  different  interests 
would  arise,  yet  if  the  county  was  found  intersected  by  wide  water-courses,  or  rapid 
torrents,  or  rugged  mountains,  or  if  any  other  cause  existed,  calculated  to  interpose 
permanent  obstacles  in  the  way  of  free  and  frequent  intercourse  between  the  inhabi- 
tants of  different  parts  of  the  same  county,  it  was  always  divided  upon  the  application 
of  either  part,  where  particular  convenience,  (which  must  always  be  considered  as  its 
peculiar  interest,)  required  such  a  division. 

Nor  is  this  all.  Our  history  will  further  inform  us,  that  after  the  first  division  of 
the  State  into  shires  or  counties,  peculiar  interests  arose  within  the  bodies  of  some  of 
these  counties,  which  interests  were  not  of  a  character  to  justify  or  to  require  the 
dismemberment  of  the  county,  in  order  to  provide  special  representation  of  them. 
When  such  interests  appeared,  they  were,  therefore,  incorporated,  and  by  their  seve- 
ral charters  of  incorporation,  were  allowed  a  representation  different  from  that  which 
had  always  been  given  to  the  peculiar  interests  existing  in  the  counties  themselves — 
such,  most  probably,  was  the  origin  of  the  representation  allowed  to  Jamestown,  and 
afterwards  to  that  which  was  certainly  allov/ed  to  the  city  of  Williamsburg,  to  the 
borouofh  of  Norfolk,  and  to  the  College  of  William  and  Mary.  Neither  the  compa- 
rative population  nor  wealth,  or  extent  of  either  of  these  corporations,  at  the  time 
their  several  charters  v/ere  obtained,  could  possibly  have  entitled  it  to  representation,  if 
representation  had  then  been  erected  upon  either  of  these  bases.  But  the  interests  of 
navigation,  of  trade,  and  of  science,  which  were  beheved  to  exist  in  these  corpora- 
tions, were  each  important  to  the  community,  and  being  then  peculiar  to  these 
interests,  were  respectively  allowed  a  representative,  as  all  other  interests  had  been 
before. 

Such  was  the  basis  of  representation  established  in  the  Colony  of  Virginia  at  the 
moment  when  a  representative  Legislature  was  first  introduced  here  •;  and  upon  this 
basis  was  every  thing  of  that  sort  afterwards  founded,  up  to  the  period  of  the  revolu- 
tion of  177G.  It  rested  upon  the  peculiar  interests  existing  in  particular  districts,  the 
limits  of  which  districts  were  at  first  accidental,  but  were  afterwards  delineated  and 
marked  out  by  the  convenience  of  the  inhabitants  within  them. 

When  the  Convention  who  formed  the  existing  Constitution  of  Virginia  assem- 
bled, they  found  representation  established  on  the  basis  just  stated  ;  and  being  de- 
sirous of  preserving  all  of  our  ancient  institutions  which  they  could  preserve,  con- 
sistently with  the  principles  of  the  new  Government  they  were  about  to  create,  they 
continued  to  each  county  and  corporation  then  existing,  the  same  right  of  represen- 
tation it  then  enjoyed.  No  departure  from  this  rule  occurred,  except  in  two  cases, 
and  these  exceptions  prove  strongly  the  existence  of  the  rule  itself  Jamestown, 
the  ancient  metropolis  of  the  Colony,  had  become  so  much  reduced  in  its  population, 
that  it  was  inconceivable  that  any  peculiar  interest  could  abide  there  ;  and  the  Col- 
lege of  William  and  Mary  was  nb  longer  the  peculiar  residence  of  most  of  the  sci- 
ence in  Virginia,  and,  therefore,  no  longer  entitled  to  representation  on  that  account. 
Jamestown  and  the  College,  were,  therefore,  deprived  of  their  particula-  representa- 
tion, while  every  thing  else  was  preserved  as  it  had  before  stood ;  and  the  same  pow- 
er was  given  to  the  new  Legislatures,  which  had  always  been  exercised  by  the  for- 
mer, of  dividing  the  existing  counties,  and  of  establishing  new  corporations,  when- 
ever, in  its  opinion,  the  general  interest  of  the  whole  community,  and  the  peculiar 
irtterest  of  any  part  of  it,  required  the  exercise  of  such  power. 

Such  is  the  basis  of  representation  in  Virginia  now.  This  basis  was  probably  just 
and  perfect  when  first  established,  and  would  yet  be  regarded  in  the  same  light,  but 
for  a  single  circumstance,  to  which  none  here  probably  are  indisposed  to  apply  the, 
proper  corrective.  That  circumstance  is  this  :  In  the  original  distribution  of  the  coun- 
ties, lines  of  demarcation  were  necessarily  drawn,  within  which  limits  peculiar  inter- 
ests did  then  abide,  although  these  limits  circumscribed  in  some  instances  very  nar- 
row spaces.  The  Convention  of  1776,  acting  upon  the  opinion,  that  it  would  be  un- 
wise to  change  any  thing  then  existing,  except  when  such  change  was  necessary  to 
prevent  practical  mischief,  had  regard  to  the  existing  electoral  precincts;  and  intending 
to  preserve  to  each  precinct,  the  rights  of  representation  it  then  had,  inserted  a  provision 
in  their  Constitution,  that  each  county  should  continue  to  have  two  representatives. 
The  object  was  wise  and  just  at  the  time.    But,  while  they  prudently  provided  for 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


329 


the  probable  case  of  new  interests  thereafter  to  spring  up  in  the  existing  counties, 
and,  therefore,  gave  to  the  Assembly  the  power  of  dividing  counties  and  of  creating 
corporations  at  their  will,  they  did  not  probabl}'-  foresee,  and  therefore  did  not  provide 
for  the  event,  of  any  county  or  corporation  ceasing  to  be  the  abode  of  some  interest 
pecuhar  to  itself,  the  existence  of  which  peculiar  interest,  v/as  the  sole  cause  of  giv- 
ing to  such  count}^  or  corporation,  any  particular  representation  at  first.  In  providing 
for  the  birth  of  future  peculiar  interests,  they  omitted  to  provide  for  the  extinction  of 
such  as  then  existed  ;  and  while  the  Legislature,  by  this  Constitution,  was  authorised 
to  give  representation  to  any  new  interest,  b}-  dividing  the  counties  or  creating  new 
corporations  within  which  it  might  appear,  the  mandate  of  the  Constitution,  that  each 
of  the  existing  counties  should  have  two  representatives,  deprived  the  Legislature  of 
the  power  of  taking  from  sucli  counties,  anj/  portion  of  their  rights  of  representation, 
even  after  the  cause  which  originally  gave  to  them  such  rights,  had  ceased  to  exist. 

In  consequence  of  this  provision  in  the  Constitution,  it  has  occurred,  that  after  some 
of  the  smaller  counties,  ("Warwick  for  example)  have  ceased  to  be  the  abode  of  any 
interest  peculiar  to  its  inhabitants,  it  still  retains  a  right  of  representation  equal  to  that 
enjoyed  by  Shenandoah,  the  largest  county  in  the  State  ;  nor  is  it  competent  to  the 
Legislature  to  remedy  this  inequality,  without  producing  much  greater  mischiefs  than 
any  which  ever  have  or  ever  can  result  from  that  cause.  Because,  if  the  larger  coun- 
ties should  be  so  divided  and  cut  up,  as  give  to  their  respective  parts  equal  to  War- 
wick in  any  thing,  a  right  of  representation  equal  to  that  which  Warwick  now  enjoys, 
the  Legislative  body  must  become  much  too  numerous,  unwieldy,  and  expensive,  to 
be  any  longer  useful ;  and  the  people  of  many  of  the  sub-divisions  would  be  most 
grievously  oppressed,  by  the  necessary  burthens  of  their  own  mere  municipal  police. 
Thus  it  happens,  Hiat  while  the  causes  for  allowing  equal  representation  to  all  the 
different  counties  in  the  State,  have  ceased  to  apply  in  manj-  instances,  and  while  the 
eifect  of  this  is  remed\-less  under  the  provisions  of  tlie  existing  Constitution,  the  in- 
capacity of  the  Legislature  to  provide  the  proper  cure  for  this  confessed  evil,  has  be- 
come the  source  of  all  the  murmuring  and  complaint  we  have  heard,  and  is  the  true 
cause  of  the  assembling  of  this  Convention.  It  is  not,  that  the  East  or  the  West,  tire 
cis-montane  or  ultra-muntane  regions  of  the  State,  have  too  much  or  too  little  politi- 
cal weight  in  the  Assembly — it  is,  that  the  largest  counties  are  put  upon  a  par  with 
the  smallest;  that  Warwick  and  LoudouM.  Halifax  and  Allegiiany,  are  equalized  in 
representation.  This  is  the  inequality  complained  of,  and  this  is  the  inequality  which 
we  are  sent  hither  by  the  people  to  reduce  and  reconcile,  so  far  as  we  may  find  it 
practicable  to  do  so. 

If  we  confine  ourselves  to  this  task,  the  work  to  be  performed  is  by  no  means  diffi- 
cult of  execution.  The  addition  of  a  single  line  to  the  provisions  existing  in  the 
present  Constitution  will  accomplish  it ;  and  to  such  an  addition,  but  little  objection 
will  probably  be  urged.  Give  to  the  Legislature  the  discretionary  power  of- uniting 
any  of  the  present  electoral  districts,  within  which  no  peculiar  interest  is  believed  to 
exist,  to  other  contiguous  districts  having  similar  interests,  and  the  desired  object  will 
be  attained.  Then,  under  the  power  they  now  have,  of  dividing  the  larger  counties ; 
and  under  this  new  power  so  conferred  upon  them,  of  consolidating  the  smaller,  eve- 
ry desirable  and  practical  equality  will  be  at  once  accomplished.  The  whole  scheme 
of  representation  will  then  remain  upon  its  ancient,  unaltered  basis,  and  can  be  ac- 
commodated from  time  to  time  to  every  future  condition  of  things,  without  changing 
any  principle,  or  seeking  to  estabhsh  any  new  foundation. 

Instead  of  adopting  a  course  so  simple,  so  easy,  and  which,  in  all  probability,  would 
be  so  satisfactory,  as  this,  it  seems  to  be  proposed,  to  apply  a  sponge  to  all  the  division 
lines  within  the  State,  and  to  make  a  perfect  tabula  rasa  of  the  whole  Common- 
wealth. W'hen  this  is  done,  new  lines  must  be  drawn,  and  new  associations  created, 
in  the  establishment  of  which,  no  regard  is  to  be  had  (according  to  the  report  of  the 
Select  Committee)  to  any  thing  else  but  to  the  number  of  tire  free  white  population, 
existing  within  such  limits.  Such  an  idea,  he  believed,  never  entered  into  the  mind 
of  a  single  man,  before  this  Convention  met,  and  will  not  now  be  regarded  without 
amazement  and  almost  consternation,  b}*  any  other  than  a  member  of  this  body. 

For  my  part,  said  Mr.  T.  1  will  cordially  unite  with  any,  in  consolidating  the  smal- 
ler counties  every  where,  until  the  very  least  shall  assume  a  proper  size.  I  will  unite 
then  in  dividing  the  larger  counties,  wherever  it  is  desired,  until  the  largest  shall 
cease  to  be  considered  as  over-grov.m.  In  the  progress  of  this  w^ork  of  equalization, 
however,  I  can  never  consent  to  regard  numbers  of  any  sort,  exdusitehj,  or  taxation 
or  property  of  any  kind  excb/sivehj,  or  any  thing  else  ezdusivdy.  I  must  consider 
what  the  interests  and  convenience  of  the  people  to  be  represented  require;  and  in 
deciding  this  question.  I  must  do,  what  every  wise  Statesman  ought  to  do:  I  tliink, 
I  must  regard  and  pass  in  review  before  me,  every  single  circumstance  which  exists, 
to  influence  any  part  of  the  State  materially. 

Let  me  illustrate  my  views  of  this  subject,  by  an  example.  If  you  will  cast  vour 
eye  over  the  map  of  Virginia,  you  will  see  on  its  extreme  Eastern  border,  a  httle  pe- 

42 


330 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


ninsula,  containing  witliin  its  limits  not  a  fiftieth  part  of  the  territory  or  population, 
or  probably  of  the  wealth  of  the  State.  Suppose  this  territory,  and  population,  and 
wealth,  reduced  to  any  thing  less  you  please,  but  still  remains  respectable,  the  situa- 
tion of  that  peninsula  would  yet  be  what  it  now  is.  It  would  still  be  contiguous  to 
a  neighbouring  State,  washed  by  the  great  Atlantic  on  the  one  side,  and  separated 
from  the  rest  of  the  State  on  the  other  by  a  great  bay,  wider  than  the  English  Chan- 
nel at  Dover,  or  than  the  Mediterranean  at  the  Straits  of  Gibraltar.  This  situation, 
you  must  perceive,  exposes  its  inhabitants  to  mvich  greater  perils  than  those  of  any 
other  part  of  the  Commonwealth ;  and,  at  the  same  time,  deprives  it  of  all  hope  of 
aid  from  any  other  quarter,  even  in  the  hour  of  its  greatest  need.  In  the  Revolution, 
and  during  the  late  war,  these  people  defended  themselves  by  their  own  means  alone, 
receiving  no  particle  of  assistance  from  any  other  portion  of  the  State.  Whatever 
may  be  thought  of  the  ingratitude  of  anotlier  part,  in  not  erecting  monuments  to 
mark  the  spots  where  rest  the  bones  of  the  brave  men  who  fell  victims  to  the  diseases 
of  either  camp  or  climate,  no  tear  ought  to  bedew  the  cheek  of  the  gentleman  from 
Loudoun  (Mr.  Mercer)  at  similar  ingratitude  here — no  Western  hero  is  there  interred, 
for  the  foot  of  no  Western  hero  ever  pressed  that  soil.  The  people  of  this  little  pe- 
ninsula unaided,  have  maintained  and  defended  themselves  from  the  beginning,  will 
continue  to  do  so  to  the  end,  and  I  thank  God  that  they  are  able  so  to  do.  But  this  is 
not  all.  Our  history  will  inform  us,  that  the  people  of  this  peninsula,  are  the  descen- 
dants of  the  earliest  settlers  in  Virginia.  Their  insular  situation  must  inform  us,  that 
the  ancient  manners  and  customs  of  the  country,  are  there  preserved  more  perfectly, 
probably,  than  in  any  other  part  of  the  State,  where  the  frequent  attrition  of  various 
associations,  has  long  since  blunted  and  smoothed  down  the  asperities  and  sharp 
points  of  the  habits  of  antiquity — a  different  climate,  soil,  and  situation,  has  neces- 
sarily yielded  various  productions,  and  invited  to  the  pursuit  of  occupations  there, 
very  different  from  those  existing  elsewhere.  In  short,  all  these  diversities  have 
created  an  interest  peculiar  in  that  section  of  the  countiy,  the  like  of  which  is  to  be 
found  no  where  else.  Now,  with  a  full  knowledge  of  all  these  facts,  would  any  wise 
Statesman,  in  adjusting  a  scheme  of  representation  for  the  whole  Commonwealth, 
ever  conceive  the  idea  of  allowing  no  representative  to  such  a  society  as  I  have  des- 
cribed, merely  because  their  numbers,  or  their  wealth,  did  not  rise  to  the  exact  height 
of  that  arbitrary  standard  of  number  or  property  which  he  had  fixed  Would  com- 
mon prudence  justify  hiin  in  saying  to  such  a  people,  "  It  is  true  an  ocean  rolls  be- 
tween us;  it  is  true,  your  situation,  manners,  habits,  pursuits,  and  interests,  are  dif- 
ferent from  ours  ;  it  is  true  you  are  contiguous  to  another  State,  where  juxta-position 
to  you  may  better  qualify  it  to  learn  the  true  nature  of  your  wants,  and  to  extend  to 
your  peculiar  interests,  more  protection  than  we  can  ;  but  nevertheless  I  cannot  regard 
any  of  these  things.  My  rule  is,  that  in  allotting  representation,  respect  should  be 
had  to  the  number  of  free  white  inhabitants  exclusively ;  and  as  your  natural  limits 
contain  not  a  sufhcient  number  of  these,  no  representation  can  be  allowed  to  you, 
and  you  can,  therefore,  have  no  share  in  the  administration  of  the  Government  de- 
signed for  tlie  benefit  of  all."  I  need  not  state  what  must  be  tlie  inevitable  result  of 
such  a  course.    Every  man  who  hears  me,  must  at  once  perceive  it. 

Mr.  T.  then  adverted  to  the  little  county  of  Warwick,  containing,  as  he  said,  not 
more  than 'about  forty  thousand  acres  of  land,  and  but  little  more  than  six  hundred 
white  inhabitants.  He  said,  that  regarding  the  situation  of  that  county,  or  the  con- 
venience of  its  inhabitants,  it  was  scarcely  possible  to  conceive,  that  any  interest 
could  there  exist  at  this  day,  which  was  not  common  to  the  circumjacent  contiguous 
counties,  upon  the  principles  of  the  basis  of  representation  as  now  established ;  there- 
fore, this  county  could  not  be  considered  as  longer  entitled  to  a  separate  representa- 
tion. But,  suppose.  Sir,  said  he,  that  the  river  which  runs  through  this  little  county, 
precipitated  itself  in  its  course  over  such  a  cataract  as  that  of  Niagara Does  not 
every  one  discern  in  such  a  circumstance,  a  cause  sufficient  to  convert  the  inhabitants 
of  that  county  into  a  body  of  manufacturers And  then  is  it  not  obvious,  that  such 
an  interest  would  require  a  separate  representation,  notwithstanding  the  limits  of  the 
county,  its  population  and  property  might  each  remain  not  greater  than  they  are  at 
present.''  Justice  and  policy  would  surely  require  this.  If  so,  it  is  perfectly  clear, 
that  the  existing  basis  is  the  true  basis  of  representation  ;  and,  that  in  the  allotment 
of  representation,  regard  should  be  had,  rather  to  tlie  interests  and  convenience  of  the 
people,  than  to  their  actual  numbers,  or  wealth,  or  territory. 

But,  my  venerable  friend  from  Loudoun,  (I  beg  pardon  of  the  gentleman  for  the 
familiarity  of  the  plirase,  but  he  has  ever  been  my  friend)  has  said,  that  the  principles 
of  all  Republican  Government  required,  that  representation  should  be  apportioned  ac- 
cording to  numbers  alone,  and  should  be  founded  on  the  white  population  only.  Yet, 
Sir,  that  gentleman  himself  tells  us,  that  our  existing  Government  is  the  best  the 
world  has  ever  known.  Is  not  this  Government  a  Republican  Government  ?  Were 
not  the  patriots  who  formed  it,  wise  Republicans And  is  it  not  founded  on  ihe 
purest  Repubhcan  principles.?  If  gentlemen  contend  that  it  is  not  a  Republican 


DEBATES    OF   THE  COXTENTIOy- 


331 


GoYernment,  what  are  we  to  infer  from  that  eulogy  vrhich  represents  it  to  be  the  best 
Government  in  the  world  r  Here  3Ir.  T.  shewed  the  inconsistency  of  the  argument 
urged  on  the  other  side^  which,  while  it  conceded  that  the  present  was  not  only  a  Re- 
pubhcan  Government,  but  the  best  of  such  Governments,  yet  denied  to  such  a  Gov- 
ernment any  one  of  tlie  ingredients  necessary  to  the  construction  of  a  Republic. 

He  next  referred  to  tlie  arguments  on  the  subject  of  the  natural  right  of  a  majority 
to  govern  ;  contending  that  a  radical  objection  to  all  such  arguments,  would  be  found 
in  the  arguments  themselves.  Gentlemen  contend,  that  a  majority  of  the  people  have 
an  indefeasible  right  to  rule  the  minority ;  and  having  established'  this  proposition,  to 
their  own  satisfaction,  at  least,  they  immediately  undertake  to  define  who  are  the  peo- 
ple ;  and  by  tlieir  own  definition  exclude  not  less  than  seven-eighths  of  the  whole 
population,  from  the  enumeration  of  that  society,  the  majority  of  which,  derives  from 
eternal  and  immutable  justice,  a  supposed  right  to  rule  the  minority.  Gentlemen  as- 
sert, that  accordincr  to  an  eternal  rule  of  right,  the  majority  must  govern,  and  then 
instantly  exclude  from  the  enumeration,  all  except  free  ichite  persons;  so  making  the 
eternal  rules  of  justice  and  reason,  to  depend,  not  upon  the  condition  of  the  popula- 
tion as  bond  or  free,  but  upon  the  accidental  circumstance  of  the  colour  of  their  skins  : 
and  pray,  Sir,  said  Mr.  T.  to  what  standard  are  we  to  refer  in  order  to  decide  the 
question  of  colour,  which  is  considered  as  so  important  in  deducing  a  natural  riaht  ? 
The  native  inhabitants  of  Japan,  of  China,  of  Hindostan,  of  all  Southern  Asia,  of 
Egypt,  the  3Ioors  of  Africa,  the  Natives  of  the  Greek  Islands  crenerailv;  together 
with  all  the  unmixed  descendants  of  the  original  inhabitants  of  America,  will  now  be 
embraced  within  tliis  supposed  rule,  that  deduces  the  right  of  a  majority  of  whites  to 
govern  any  society  from  the  supposed  source  of  naturaflaw. 

If  gentlemen  had  said,  that  sound  pohcy  required,  that  in  Virginia,  negroes  and 
mulattoes,  whether  bond  or  fi-ee,  should  not  participate  in  the  active  exercise  of  any 
political  power,  most  vrillingly  would  he  have  assented  to  such  a  proposition.  But 
when  the  question  is  not,  who  shall  possess  and  exercise  political  power,  but  upon 
what  basis  ought  such  power  to  be  erected,  he  could  not  comprehend  the  force  of  the 
argument,  which,  while  seeking  to  fix  population  merely  as  that  basis,  would  never- 
theless disregard  all  other  thanlhe  free  white  population.  Domestic  slaves  of  every 
sort,  whether  black  or  white,  maj-  be  excluded,  under  the  idea  that  they  ought  not  to 
be  considered  as  persons,  but  as  property  merely :  but  why  none  but  a  free  white 
person  should  be  enumerated,  in  establishinof  the  number  of  the  people  as  the  basis 
of  representation,  he  could  not  conceive.  Women,  minors,  even  aliens,  and  many 
others  whom  none  propose  to  admit  to  the  enjoyment  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage, "are 
all,  nevertheless,  to  be  counted,  (provided  they  be  white,)  in  forming  the  basis  of 
representation :  but  none  others  are  to  be  computed,  edthough  they  be  Tree,  virtuous, 
intelligent,  and  rich,  as  any  white  man,  in  the  whole  State.  Suppose,  said  Mr.  T.  a 
Hong  merchant  was  to  come  hither  from  Macao,  bringing  with  him  numerous  con- 
nexions and  much  wealth:  or  suppose  some  convulsion  in  the  neighbouring  Repubhcs 
of  the  South,  Mexico  for  example,  should  force  hither  many  of  tlie  inhabitants  of 
that  country,  free,  virtuous,  intelligent,  and  wealthy;  can  any  possible  reason  be  as- 
signed, why  the  unmixed  descendants  of  such  emigrants,  natives  of  Virginia,  should 
be  excluded  from  the  computation  of  numbers,  while  every  emigrant  fi-om  any  part 
of  Europe,  even  before  he  becomes  a  citizen,  must  be  estimated?  Such  a  rule  can- 
not be  traced  to  any  principle  of  right,  or  to  oxiy  maxim  of  sound  policy.  The  true 
rule  is,  that  in  a  representative  Government,  every  important  interest  in  the  society 
should  have  its  particular  representative ;  and  tliat  in  the  election  of  such  a  repre- 
sentative, the  majority  of  persons  duly  qualified  according  to  law,  whose  peculiar  in- 
terest he  is  to  represent,  should  haA'e  the  privilege  of  electing  him — and  as,  in  defining 
the  society  so  to  be  represented,  it  must  be  measured  by  territorial  limits,  so  by  ap- 
portioning representation  to  the  different  electoral  precincts  of  the  State,  you  attain 
the  great  desideratum  of  all  representative  Government. 

Mr.  Chairman,  said  Mr.  T.  capital  and  labour  are  the  two  great  elements  of  the 
prosperity  of  every  State  ;  each  of  these  is  necessary  to  the  existence  of  the  other, 
for  without  labour,  capital  would  be  worthless,  and  witliout  capital,  labour  would  be 
useless.  But  although  thus  essential  to  each  other,  between  the  two  there  has  existed 
a  struggle  from  the  beginning,  wliich,  in  the  very  nature  of  things,  must  continue  to 
the  end  of  time.  To  reconcile  these  jarring  elements,  and  to  confine  each  within  its 
proper  sphere,  is  the  business  of  good  Government.  But  in  the  adjustm.ent  of  the 
powers  of  Government,  if  too  much  influence  be  given  to  eitlier  of  these  elements, 
mischiefs  must  result  to  society.  If  too  much  weight  be  allowed  to  capital,  labour 
will  surely  be  oppressed,  and  if  too  much  influence  be  given  to  labour,  capital  is  at 
once  endangered.  Oppressed  labour  seizes  power  to  redress  its  wrongs  ;  capital  en- 
dangered, must  purchase  power  to  protect  its  rights.  Althoup-h  in  perpetual  conflict, 
it  passes  human  wisdom  to  separate  these  conflicting  forces.  You  might  as  well  ex- 
pect to  separate  the  soul  from  the  body  of  man,  and  to  preserve  his  existence,  as  to 
separate  capital  from  labour,  and  to  preserve  society.    You  may  subject  either  you 


332 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION, 


please  to  the  dominion  of  the  other,  but  the  experiment  can  only  be  made  by  that 
sort  of  revolution,  whicli  of  necessity  must  end  in  anarchy  and  despotism.  All 
which  tlie  friend  of  free  Government  can  desire;  all  that  the  wisest  Statesman  can 
accomplish,  is  so  to  resolve  these  opposing  forces  into  a  third,  as  to  give  a  new  direc- 
tion to  each,  which  may  be  sufficient  to  check,  restrain  and  balance  both.  This  re- 
sulting force  is  Government,  which,  when  deriving  its  power  from  both  capital  and 
labour,  will  receive  the  support  of  both. 

But  how  is  such  a  Government  to  be  constructed  Certainly  not  in  the  mode  sug- 
gested by  tlie  venerable  member  from  Loudoun,  as  that  which  he  prefers.  His  plan 
is,  to  divide  the  Legislative  Department  into  two  branches,  both  to  be  chosen  by  the 
same  electors  ;  to  allow  to  numbers,  that  is  to  labour  exclusively,  representation  in  the 
more  numerous  branch,  which  is  to  be  elected  annually,  and  to  capital  and  numbers 
combined,  representation  in  the  other  branch,  which  is  to  be  elected  quadrennially ; 
and  so  to  check  and  balance  these  opposing  forces.  Now,  Sir,  is  it  not  obvious  at 
once,  that  two  bodies,  each  deriving  their  authority  from  the  same  common  source, 
can  never  check  each  other ;  but  that  both  must  obey  the  direction  given  to  either 
by  the  power  from  which  they  both  proceed  ?  Does  not  our  own  experience  too, 
inform  us,  that  a  Senate  consisting  of  twenty-four  members,  sitting  up-stairs,  can 
never  restrain  the  power  of  a  House  of  Delegates  consisting  of  one  hundred  and 
twenty  members,  sitting  here?  The  Senate  may  sometimes  prevent  the  hasty  and 
incorrect  legislation  of  the  House  of  Delegates ;  they  may  dot  the  i's  or  cross  the 
t's,  or  correct  the  ortlivOgraphy  in  bills  which  have  passed  the  House,  (if  it  be  allowa- 
ble to  suppose  that  any  member  of  that  body  may  not  know  how  to  spell,)  but  it 
never  has  and  never  can  arrest  any  deliberate  measure  which  the  House  is  disposed 
to  persist  in.  The  reason  of  tliis  is  very  obvious.  The  Senate  is  elected  for  four  years 
in  the  lai'ge  divisions  of  our  territory,  while  the  Delegates  are  elected  annually,  by 
the  smaller  sub-divisions  of  these  large  districts.  The  Delegates,  therefore,  under- 
stand and  represent  more  truly  the  opinions  of  their  common  constituents  than  the 
Senators ;  and  whensoever  a  division  of  opinion  exists  between  them,  the  Delegates 
must  therefore  prevail.  I  do  not  know  the  fact,  but  I  think  I  hazard  nothing  in  say- 
ing, that  the  case  has  never  occurred,  in  which  a  Senator,  voting  differently  Irom  the 
Delegates  representing  the  different  counties  of  his  district,  upon  any  matter  of 
much  importance,  has  ever  been  re-elected.  What  security,  then,  can  property  find 
in  such  a  body  as  a  Senate,  against  the  attack  of  numbers,  represented  exclusivel}'  in 
the  other  House  ! 

But  suppose,  to  avoid  a  result  so  obvious  as  I  have  stated,  the  plan  should  be  some- 
what changed,  and  a  higher  property  qualification  should  be  required  of  the  electors 
of  the  Senate,  than  of  the  electors  of  the  Delegates,  the  case  would  not  be  changed 
materially.  The  gentleman  from  Brooke  would  immediately  proclaim  this  little  body 
to  be  a  band  of  oligarchs — others  would  style  it  a  body  of  aristocrats,  and  many  would 
be  found  to  denounce  it  as  the  rotten  part  of  the  Government,  which  ought  to  be  put 
down.  With  this  cry  of  inad-dog  uttered  against  it,  the  Senate  would  be  sent  forth 
to  the  people  as  an  object  of  their  scorn  and  hatred,  and  could  furnish  httle  protec- 
tion to  rights,  for  the  security  of  which  such  an  anomalous  institution  was  at  first  de- 
signed. 

In  every  society,  there  will  always  be  found  individuals,  who,  from  the  mere  fond- 
ness of  notoriety,  and  popularity,  will  oftentimes  neglect  their  own  interests,  and 
who  may,  therefore,  be  expected  to  disregard  the  interests  of  their  constituents.  Such 
was  the  Duke  of  Orleans  formerly  in  France  :  and  in  the  conflicts  between  persons 
and  property,  which  must  take  place  in  every  election  of  Senators,  upon  this  basis  of 
numbers  and  property  combined,  the  result  must  be,  that  numbers  will  certainly  se- 
lect the  first  Mons'r  Egalite  who  presents  himself  as  the  professed  guardian  of  the 
rights  of  property.  In  such  a  society  as  that  which  now  exists,  and  I  hope  ever  will 
exist  in  Virginia,  if  ever  a  separate  representation  is  allowed  to  persons  and  to  pro- 
perty, if  ever  they  are  so  arrayed  against  each  other  by  Government  or  in  Govern- 
ment, we  may  talk  as  we  please  about  checks  and  balances,  but  it  is  a  delusion  to  be- 
lieve, that  the  smaller  can  ever  stop  tbe  progress  of  the  greater  power.  An  Almigh- 
ty hand  may  part  Dives  and  Lazarus  by  an  impassable  gulph,  but  the  Statesman, 
who  expects  to  keep  them  asunder,  deceives  himself ;  the  struggle  for  power  will  and 
must  bring  them  together  again,  and  although  Dives  may  remain  in  the  place  assign- 
ed to  him,  Lazarus  cannot.  If  you  wish  to  secure  both  persons  and  property,  you 
must  not  add  fuel  to  the  flame  which  their  natural  collisions  will  always  kindle.  In- 
stead of  dividing  them  in  action  any  where,  you  must  resolve  and  combine  their 
forces  every  where.  Your  effort  should  be  by  mingling  them  to  render  it  impossible 
to  distinguish  the  voice  of  the  one  from  that  of  the  other,  and  not  to  arrange  them  so 
as  that  each  should  be  separately  heard  and  understood.  You  can  only  accomplish 
this  object  by  pursuing  the  example  of  our  ancestors,  by  arranging  representation 
neither  upon  the  basis  of  one  or  the  other,  but  upon  the  basis  of  interests,  compre- 
hending both  within  the  limits  of  some  certain  territory,  dehneated  by  convenience. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


333 


Let  me  illustrate  this  in  anotlier  ^vay.  The  capital  and  labor  of  every  country 
must  be  employed  in  the  pursuits  of  either  agriculture,  commerce,  or  manufactures. 
Here.  then,  are  three  ^reat  interests  existing  in  every  community,  all  of  which  are 
so  useful  and  important  to  its  prosperity,  that  each  ought  to  be  represented,  to  the 
end  that  each  may  be  preserved  and  promoted.  JXow,  from  ^vhat  cause  do  these  va- 
rious and  distinct  interests  proceed  ?  It  is  from  local  circumstances  merely  :  from  the 
peculiar  situation  of  the  spot  where  they  exist.  By  allovdng  representation  to  terri- 
tory, therefore,  you  will  in  etiect  give  representation  to  the  particular  interest  w^iich 
inhabits  it.  Do" the  trans-Allegha\v  people  ever  expect  to  become  commercial  .'  The 
tiling  is  impossible.  They  rnay  cut  canals  wherever  they  live,  and  call  their  boat- 
men°sailors  if  they  please,  but  God  and  nature  have  decreed  that  commerce  shall  ne- 
ver find  a  home  there.  It  must  abide  upon  navigable  waters,  made  so,  net  by  man, 
but  by  Him  who  made  man.  The  interests  of  commerce,  therefore,  can  never  be 
represented  by  those  who  represent  that  section  of  the  countr}- .  Do  the  people  of 
the  alluvial  plain,  watered  by  the  tide-water,  destitute  as  it  is  of  every  mineral  pro- 
duction, and  without  a  water-fall  of  a  single  foot,  expect  to  become  manufacturers  ? 
Such  an  expectation  would  be  equally  idle  on  their  part :  and  the  middle  rtgion  of 
the  State,  must  ever  contain  what  it  nov/  does,  the  great  agricultural  interest  of  the 
Commonwealth.  Each  of  these  great  interests  ought  to  be  represented  ;  and  the 
proportions  of  their  representation  will  always  be  found  well  measured,  by  the  capi- 
tal and  labor  employed  m  each,  and  these  again  by  tiie  total  population  contained 
within  the  respective  territories  wherein  they  exist. 

Again,  if  you  will  examine  the  territories  of  Virginia,  wherein  tlie  great  agricul- 
turaf  interests  are  found,  I  mean  on  this  side  of  the  mountain,  (for  m}^  topographical 
knowledge  of  the  tra-montane  region  does  not  enable  me  to  speak  of  tliat.)  you  will 
discover,  that  taking  the  line  of  2sorth  Carolina  as  a  base,  the  Blue  Ridge  as  one  of 
its  sides,  and  some  point  near  the  county  of  Culpeper  as  its  apex,  a  line  drawn  from 
thence  to  the  termination  of  the  tide-water  region,  will  form  a  great  triangle,  within 
which,  a  slave-holding,  tobacco-planting  interest  predominates.  From  the  termina- 
tion of  the  base  of  the  first  triangle,  the  North  Carolina  line  so  very  near  tlie  Atlan- 
tic, furnishes  the  base  of  a  second  great  triangle,  w^hose  apex  is  on  the  Potomac,  and 
within  which  is  to  be  found  a  slave-holding  cotton-planting  interest.  The  residue  of 
this  lower  cnuntry  will  comprehend  the  grain-growing  interest.  Now  all  these  three 
great  interests,  although  agricultural,  are,  nevertheless,  as  distinct  from  each  other  as 
are  those  of  agriculture,  commerce,  and  manufactures;  and  like  the  latter,  each  of 
the  former  interests  proceeds  from  local  circumstances,  easily  to  be  ascertained,  and 
circumscribed  by  v.-ell-defined  geographical  lines.  But  this  is  not  all.  The  territory 
occupied  by  each  of  these  three  great  agricultural  interests,  will  be  found  intersected 
in  all  directions  by  wide  water-courses,  cutting  ofi"  and  preventing  all  intercourse  and 
association  between  those  who  may  chance  to  dwell  on  their  opposite  sides.  Conve- 
nience will,  therefore,  require,  that  in  allowing  representation  io  each  of  these  great 
agricultural  interests,  regard  should  be  had  to  these  local  circumstances,  to  the  end 
that  the  responsibility  of  die  representative  may  be  secured.  Having  fixed  represen- 
tation upon  such  a  basis  as  this,  in  graduating  and  apportioning  it  to  the  different  pre- 
cincts delineated  by  a  due  regard  to  the  convenience  of  tlieir  inhabitants,  jon  may 
then,  but  not  until  then,  resort  to  numbers,  as  furnishing  the  scale  and  measure  by 
which  the  different  interests  abiding  within  these  precincts  may  be  ascertained  and 
compared.  But  in  resorting  to  numbers,  you  should  not  confine  yourself  to  white 
nmnbers  exclusively,  but  should  consider  every  other  circumstance  in  any  way  con- 
nected with  this  subject.  Such  was  the  course  pursued  in  re-arranging  the  Senatorial 
Districts  in  1816 ;  and  if  a  similar  course  was  pursued  upon  tills  occasion,  it  would 
lead  to  a  conclusion  satisfactory  and  agreeable  to  all. 

3Ir.  T.  said,  that  having  referred  to  this  Act  of  1816,  which  had  been  several  tim.es 
mentioned  in  the  course  of  debate,  and  which,  as  he  believed,  was  not  understood 
generally,  it  might  be  well  for  hiin,  who  had  a  great  share  in  the  passaofe  of  that  law, 
to  give  some  account  of  its  history,  and  of  the  principles  upon  vrliich  it  was  estab- 
lished. 

During  the  course  of  tbe  debate  on  the  proposition  to  call  a  Convention  in  the  year 
1816,  it  was  frequently  said  that  the  Western  country  was  most  unequally  represented 
in  the  Senate ;  and  that  this  inequality  being  created  by  the  existincr"'  Constitution 
itself,  could  not  be  remedied  by  any  act  of  the  ordinary  Legislature.  ^Th.s  idea  was 
new  to  him.  He  had  never  heard  it  suggested  before,  nor  had  he  any  confidence  in 
the  suggestion  then.  These  opinions  were  stated  by  him  in  the  debate,  coupled  bv 
the  decfaration,  that  he  had  entertained  little  doubt  it  vras  competent  to  the  Legisla- 
ture, to  arrange  the  Senatorial  districts,  whenever,  in  their  discretion,  they  saw  fit  to 
do  so;  and,  that  this  had  been  done  several  times  already.  In  consequence  of  this 
declaration,  after  the  Convention  Bill  passed,  he  was  applied  to  by  one  of  the  mem- 
bers from  the  Western  part  of  the  State,  to  assist  in  an  etiort  to  re-arrange  the  Sena- 
torial districts,  in  a  manner  more  equal  than  they  were  tlien  arranged.    To  this  appli- 


334 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


cation,  he  yielded  a  ready  assent;  and  supported,  with  all  his  ability,  the  motion  for 
leave  to  bring  in  such  a  bill.  This  motion  was  opposed  by  the  gentleman  from 
Brooke,  (Mr.  Doddridge,)  and  others,  upon  the  ground,  that  it  was  a  measure,  not  war- 
ranted by  the  Constitution.  But,  after  a  warm  debate,  the  motion  was  carried,  and  a 
Committee  was  appointed,  (of  which  he  was  one,)  to  bring  in  such  a  bill. 

He  said,  that  according  to  the  basis  of  taxation,  the  West  was  found  entitled  to 
seven  members,  and  a  small  fraction  over — according  to  the  basis  of  Federal  numbers, 
they  were  entitled  to  seven  members,  and  a  large  fraction  over — and  according  to  the 
basis  of  white  population,  they  were  entitled  to  nine  members,  and  a  small  traction 
over — computing  according  to  the  Census  of  1810.  TJien,  by  adding  all  these  results 
together,  and  dividing  by  three,  it  was  found,  that  the  West  would  be  entitled  to  eight 
members,  and  a  fraction  over.  Believing  that  the  East,  which  would  be  entitled  to 
fifteen  members  and  a  fraction,  could  better  spare  the  fraction  than  the  West;  and 
being  entirely  averse  to  diifering  with  his  Western  brethren  concerning  a  fraction  of 
a  representative  merely,  for  his  part  he  willingly  assented  to  give  up  this  fraction  to 
the  West,  who  thereupon  would  have  nine  Senators,  while  the  East  retained  fifteen — 
and  upon  a  perfect  understanding  of  these  proportions,  were  all  the  arrangements  of 
the  original  bill  made. 

The  gentleman  from  Brooke  is  mistaken  when  he  says,  that  I  offered  an  amendment 
to  this  bill,  the  object  of  which  was  to  compute  slaves  in  the  apportionment  of  the 
Senators.  I  never  made  any  such  proposition,  or  wished  to  amend  the  bill  in  any  other 
way  whatever. 

[  Mr.  Doddridge  said,  that  he  had  not  meant  to  refer  to  this  bill.  His  reference  was 
to  the  bill  for  calling  a  Convention.] 

Mr.  Tazewell  said,  he  was  satisfied,  that  the  gentleman  from  Brooke  did  not  intend 
to  make  a  mis-statement,  but  it  was  certain  that  he  had  referred  to  the  Senatorial  bill, 
not  only  in  his  speech  here  lately,  but  upon  several  other  occasions  both  here  and 
elsewhere.  When  the  Senatorial  bill  was  to  be  adjusted  in  the  Committee,  it  was 
distinctly  understood  by  every  member,  that  the  proportions  between  the  West  and 
the  East  were  to  be  nine  and  fifteen  ;  and  although  from  what  he  had  since  heard,  he 
thotight  it  highly  probable,  that  afterwards,  while  adjusting  these  proportions  to  the 
diff'erent  parts  of  the  State,  gentlemen  might  have  had  regard  to  white  numbers  only, 
yet  if  they  did  so,  no  such  idea  was  ever  suggested  to  him,  either  in  or  out  of  the 
House.  He  was  content  with  the  proportions  mentioned  and  agreed  upon,  and  for  his 
own  part,  was  perfectly  indifferent  as  to  the  further  details  of  this  bill. 

In  conversation  with  the  friends  of  the  measure,  it  was  agreed,  that  as  the  West  was 
then  entitled  to  representation  in  the  Senate,  fully  proportioned  to  their  quota  of  the 
land-tax  paid  by  them,  if  they  wished  to  augment  this  representation,  they  ought  to 
have  a  re-assessment  of  the  lands,  and  so  to  enlarge  their  quota  of  this  tax.  This  sug- 
gestion was  readily  accepted  by  the  gentlemen  from  the  West,  favourable  to  the  bill, 
which,  therefore,  assumed  the  shape  it  now  wears,  of  a  bill  to  re-apportion  the  land- 
tax,  and  to  re-arrange  the  Senatorial  districts. 

Such  was  the  history  of  this  law;  and  he  had  hoped,  that  a  perfect  knowledge  of 
the  benefits  derived  from  it,  and  the  general  satisfaction  with  which  it  had  been 
adopted,  would  have  induced  the  pursuit  of  a  similar  course  now.  The  people  of  the 
West  were  then  satisfied.  They  confessed,  that  they  had  no  cause  to  complain  of 
unequal  representation  in  the  lower  House ;  and  when  the  inequality  of  representa- 
tion in  the  Senate  was  so  redressed,  they  expressed  their  entire  content  with  the  ar- 
rangement made.  Let  but  a  similar  course  be  again  adopted,  and  it  will  terminate  in 
a  similar  result.  Add  but  a  single  line  to  George  Mason's  Constitution,  authorising 
the  Legislature,  from  time  to  time,  in  their  discretion,  to  deprive  counties  and  corpo- 
rations which  may  have  declined  too  much  in  population  or  in  wealth,  of  the  repre- 
sentation to  which  they  are  now  entitled,  and  every  evil  of  unequal  representation 
which  is  now  complained  of,  will  be  at  once  removed. 

But  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  (Mr.  Johnson,)  has  told  us,  that  this  is  a  contest 
for  power  merely ;  that  disguise  it  as  we  might,  it  must  still  present  itself  as  a  ques- 
tion of  power.  If  this  be  so,  we  cannot  surrender  the  smallest  fraction,  without  an 
abasing  degradation.  The  power  we  now  possess,  we  are  well  content  to  share  with 
our  brethren  of  the  West,  provided  they  can  satisfy  us,  that  it  is  right  we  should  do 
so.  But  if  the  power  is  demanded  by  them  merely  because  it  is  wanted  ;  and  if  it  is  ^ 
expected,  that  the  East  must  yield  until  the  West  is  satisfied,  he  for  one  would  yield 
nothing  to  such  a  demand.  He  would  at  once  place  his  foot  on  the  spot  from  whence 
he  would  never  recede,  be  the  consequence  what  it  might.  To  a  spirit  of  just  com- 
promise he  was  prepared  to  yield  much,  but  to  a  strong  demand  nothing. 

Mr.  Chairman,  said  Mr.  T.  I  came  here  anxious  to  preserve  so  much  of  our  long- 
tried  Constitution,  as  in  practice  had  been  found  good,  and  no  more.  I  came  here 
prepared  to  reform  at  once  every  part  of  it,  from  the  operation  of  which  any  practical 
mischief  had  been  found  to  result.  Nay,  I  am  wilUng  to  go  still  further,  and  am 
ready  to  provide  a  seasonable  remedy  for  any  probable  mischief,  which  may  be  rea- 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


535 


sonably  supposed  likely  to  result  hereafter.  But  I  cannot  consent  to  pull  down  the 
whole  venerated  fabric  to  its  foundation,  merely  to  build  up  another;  to  change 
every  thing,  to  reform  every  thing,  and  to  alter  all.  Those  whom  I  represent  have 
no  such  wfsh  as  this,  nor  did  they  depute  me  to  co-operate  in  any  such  undertaking. 
They  had  heard  complaints  and  murmurs  at  different  times,  proceeding  from  different 
quarters,  that  the  existing  Government  had  produced  mischievous  effects.  Such 
mischiefs  they  have  never  felt  themselves,  but  beheving  it  probable  that  they  might 
exist,  although  unknown  to  them,  they  sent  me  hither  to  enquire  into  the  fact;  and 
when  it  should  be  seen  to  exist,  to  apply  to  the  evil  the  proper  corrective.  To  the  at- 
tainment of  this  object,  I  will  honestly  and  sincerely  co-operate  with  any.  But  when 
I  am  told,  that  the  question  to  be  discussed  and  decided  is  nothing  else  than  a  mere 
question  of  power;  that  the  West  want  that  which  the  East  have,  I  can  only  say  that 
such  a  question  can  never  be  decided  here.  Jurists  may  discuss  and  decide  questions 
of  riQ-ht;  Statesmen  may  settle  and  adjust  matters  of  political  expediency;  but  there 
is  but  one  earthly  forum  to  which  an  appeal  can  ever  be  made  for  the  determination 
of  a  mere  question  of  power  ;  and  before  that  forum,  there  is  but  one  argument  which 
ever  can  produce  the  slightest  effect.  We  are  told,  that  in  former  times,  a  strong  de- 
mand was  made  upon  the  Government  of  ancient  Sparta,  accompanied  by  a  declara- 
tion, that  if  the  demand  was  not  granted,  the  demandant  would  come  and  take  it. 
The  laconic  answer  to  tliis  demand  was,  '  Come  and  take  it.'  The  demandant  came, 
but  did  not  obtain  that  which  he  meant  to  take. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  he  wished  to  make  some  observations  in  reply  to  the  state- 
ments of  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk.  That  gentleman  had  said,  that  by  the  law  of 
February,  1817,  reforming  the  Senatorial  representation,  reference  was  had,  not  only 
to  white  population,  but  to  interests  and  other  circumstances,  from  an  examination  of 
which  it  resulted  that  the  West  were  entitled  to  eight  Senators  and  a  fraction,  and 
that  the  East  yielded  that  fraction  to  the  West,  which  gave  them  nine  members.  Mr. 
D.  said,  he  would  not  rely  on  his  memory  and  oppose  it  to  that  of  the  gentleman  from 
Norfolk,  but  he  would  appeal  to  facts  which  could  not  err,  whether  they  were  tested 
by  Pike,  Gough,  or  Dilworth. 

The  Senatorial  bill  of  February,  181-5,  was  based  on  the  Census  of  1810.  In  1810 
the  whole  white  population  was  -551,000,  disregarding  the  fractions  of  a  thousand — of 
this  population,  212,000  were  found  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge.  Out  of  twenty-four 
members  of  the  Senate,  this  population  entitled  the  West  to  nine  members,  and  a 
large  fraction  w"hich  they  lost;  so  that  the  Senatorial  arrangement  of  tliat  year  was 
regulated  by  white  population,  and  by  notliing  else.  By  the  law  of  1817,  it  required 
several  annual  elections  to  give  the  West  their  nine  members.  These  members  did 
not  come  into  the  body  until  1820.  The  Census  of  that  year  showed  that  at  that  pe- 
riod the  West  had  upwards  of  48,000  unrepresented.  Since  1810,  the  increase  of 
Western  population  has  been  nearly  107,000  and  of  the  Eastern  23,000,  leaving  W^est 
of  the  Ridge  upwards  of  82,000  souls  now  unrepresented  in  the  Senate. 

The  gentleman  had  said  that  in  1817,  the  West  had  their  full  share  in  the  House  of 
Delegates.  How  correct  that  statement  may  be,  will  appear  from  the  following  facts: 
In  1817,  there  were  ninety-nine  counties  and  four  towns  represented.  This  produced 
a  House  of  two  hundred  and  two  members.  There  were  then  thirty-four  counties 
West  of  tlie  Ridge,  having  sixty-eight  members.  The  population  being  551,000  in- 
habitants, and  the  number  of  members  two  hundred  and  two — the  Western  popula- 
tion being  212,000,  entitled  them  to  seventy-eight  and  a  half  members  instead  of  six- 
ty-eight, being  a  dehciency  of  ten  and  a  haJf  members,  which  bein^  added  to  the  East 
gave  that  quarter  of  the  State  an  advantage  on  a  divided  vote  of  twenty-one. 

There  was  as  little  accuracy  in  the  otlier  assertion,  that  the  West  were  satisfied 
with  the  Senatorial  arrangement,  declaring  it  to  be  one  that  justice  and  equity  re- 
quired. So  far  from  this,  most  of  the  members  from  the  West  voted  against  tlie  Se- 
natorial bill  in  all  its  stages,  and  never  agreed  to  accept  it  until  the  Convention  bill 
which  went  to  the  Senate  was  lost. 

The  inequality  of  Western  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates  has  increased 
since  1817.  The  whole  white  population  is  now  632,000  of  which  319,000  are  West 
of  the  Ridge.  Since  1817,  the  following  counties  have  been  erected  in  the  West, 
viz:  Morgan,  Preston,  Alleghany,  Pocahontas,  Nicholas  and  Logan,  maldng  the 
Western  counties  forty,  and  giving  to  the  West  eighty  votes  in  our  House  of  Delegates 
of  two  hundred  and  fourteen  members.  By  the  above  numbers,  the  West  are  enti- 
tled to  something  more  than  one  hundred  members  instead  of  eighty,  and  the  defici- 
ency of  twenty  being  added  to  tlie  East,  gives  to  that  quarter  an  advantage  of  forty 
votes. 

Mr.  Chapman  Johnson  said,  he  Vv^as  sorry  there  was  some  misrepresentation  of  his 
remarks,  by  tlie  gentleman  from  Norfolk,"  (Mr.  Tazewell.)  He  regretted  that  this 
should  have  been  the  case,  as  he  believed  that  gentleman  was  disposed  to  consider 
what  he  had  said  in  a  spirit  of  fairness  and  candor.  He  did  say,  that  the  question  wa 
were  considering  was  a  contest  for  power.    He  had  said,  disguise  it  as  we  wouldj 


336 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


view  it  in  any  aspect  we  could,  if  we  come  back  to  a  candid  consideration  of  it,  it  was 
a  question  ot  power  and  notlaino-  else.  He  did  not  mean  to  be  understood  as  intima- 
ting that  this  was  a  Jawless  controversy  for  power,  in  which  each  was  trying  to  get 
what  he  could,  /^e?-  fas  aut  nefas.  This  was  far  from  his  opinion,  and  his  reason  for 
addressing  the  Committee,  was  to  show  that  in  the  principles  of  either  party  this 
question  was  not  so  intensely  important  as  eitlier  imagined.  He  did  not  mean  that 
either  party  contended  for  power  on  any  principles  but  those  which  they  could  justi- 
fy to  their  own  consciences  as  right,  but  this  question  of  representation  was  a  ques- 
tion of  power,  although  certainly  all  the  business  of  the  Convention  was  not  of  that 
character.  Is  it  not  the  question  whether  you  will  give  tlie  power  of  representation 
to  interest,  numbers  or  wealth.?  To  any  or  all  of  them.?  Is  it  not  the  question  whe- 
ther you  will  distribute  the  power  of  the  Government  among  the  elements  of  the 
Commonwealth  ?  No  matter  what  is  the  basis,  it  is  the  same.  He  did  think  that  hia 
language  would  have  been  viewed  in  this  way,  os  it  ought  to  have  been.  It  would 
be  found  that  no  one  was  more  disposed  to  settle  the  question  of  power,  so  as  to  meet 
all  the  wishes  and  interests  of  the  iState,  than  he  was.  lie  knew  it  was  impossible  to 
meet  those  wishes,  but  he  would  come  as  near  as  possible,  for  it  was  his  sincere  de- 
sire that  all  things  should  go  on  harmoniously.  He  should  vote  against  the  proposi- 
tion to  make  the  Federal  numbers  the  basis,  for  reasons  which  it  would  not  now  be 
necessary  to  repeat.  If  what  he  had  said  was  remembered,  his  reasons  would  be 
known.  He  would  vote  against  it,  as  much  on  account  of  its  effect  on  the  people  he 
represented,  as  on  account  of  its  etfect  on  the  v/hole  population.  He  should  consider 
as  satisfactory,  qualified  voters  for  both  branches.  If  he  could  not  choose — if  Federal 
numbers  should  be  preferred,  as  the  limitation  to  be  given  to  the  Senate  to  operate  as 
a  check  on  the  House  of  Delegates,  he  should  have  very  little  to  regret  on  account 
of  the  power  given  over  his  constituents  by  that  basis,  over  that  which  would  have 
been  given  by  the  basis  he  recommended.  A  single  remark  as  to  the  power  of  the 
Senate  to  check  the  power  of  the  House  of  Delegates.  He  did  not  mean  to  refer  to 
his  experience  there,  nor  to  resist  the  argument,  that  the  Senate  for  one,  two,  three, 
or  four  years  might  withstand  the  House,  but  that  it  must  at  last  yield,  because  both 
branches  are  from  the  same  people.  He  would  say  nothing  farther  on  that  argument, 
except,  that  if  the  Federal  numbers  were  adopted  in  the  Senate,  and  the  House  of 
Delegates  established  on  the  basis  of  white  population,  we  ought  to  suppose  that 
each  should  concur  in  two  or  tlu'ee  years  in  any  great  question.  It  ought  to  be  so. 
He  thought  the  responsibility  of  the  representatives  was  a  sufficient  security  for  their 
continued  regard  to  the  public  interests.  The  members  of  the  Senate  are  elected  for 
a  longer  period  of  time,  and  that  circumstance  might  render  that  body  less  efficient 
as  a  check — but  the  member  of  the  House  goes  back  to  his  own  constituent  body  an- 
nually;  so  that  when  you  give  the  white  basis  to  this  body,  you  establish  the  best  of 
all  checks.  He  had  thought  it  right  to  state  this  much^  he  should  not  attempt  fur- 
ther argument.  The  Committee  ought  not  to  indulge  him  any  more,  as  he  had  already 
consumed  so  much  of  their  time.  He  would  not  sit  down  without  saying,  that  to  the 
bitter  sarcasms,  gratuitous  imputations  and  learned  jests  of  the  gentleman  from  Char- 
lotte, (Mr.  Randolph,)  he  had  no  plea  to  enter,  no  answer  to  give.  However  low  he 
might  stand  in  the  opinions  of  others,  and  they  could  not  estimate  him  lower  than  he 
estimated  himself,  yet  he  had  self-respect  enough  not  to  answer  that  gentleman,  and 
if  he  had  not,  respect  for  this  Committee  would  impose  silence  upon  him. 

Mr.  Mercer,  rose  to  corroborate  what  had  fallen  from  the  gentleman  from  Brooke, 
on  the  subject  of  the  Senate  Bill  in  1816.  The  basis  of  that  Bill  was  rested  on  the 
white  population,  and  ought  there  to  stand.  He  was  second  on  the  Committee,  and 
owing  to  the  indisposition  of  the  Chairman,  who  could  not  attend,  the  duties  of  Chair- 
man devolved  upon  him.  A  gentleman  from  Berkeley,  not  a  member  of  this  Conven- 
tion, was  the  one  who  collated  the  counties  to  form  the  basis.  He  had  heard  no  com- 
plaints. Another  word  and  he  had  done.  The  gentleman  from  Norfolk,  had  said, 
that  in  the  original  formation  of  this  Government,  regard  was  had  to  the  representa- 
tion of  interests,  and  that  the  old  House  of  Burgesses  was  composed  with  reference  to 
that  distribution  of  interests.  He  saw  no  evidence  in  the  topographical  or  other  cha- 
racter of  the  country,  to  sustain  the  view  of  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk.  The  gen- 
tleman from  Norfolk,  had  gone  so  far  as  to  divide  the  Commonwealth  into  a  number 
of  triangles,  to  shew  the  different  interests  into  which  the  State  was  divided.  He, 
consider'ed  these  interests  as  forming  a  basis  as  fluctuating  as  any  other  that  could  be 
determined. 

Cotton  was  of  recent  cultivation.  In  Loudoun,  where  there  were  formerly  tobac- 
co fields  and  wheat-patches,  there  are  now  wheat-fields  and  tobacco-patches.  The 
plan,  therefore,  of  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk,  might  be  applicable  one  day,  and  al- 
together inapplicable  a  few  years  hence.  Mr.  M.  made  some  other  observations  in 
reply,  but  we  did  not  correctly  catch  their  import.  He  concluded  with  stating,  that 
the  counties  had  been  created  for  judicial,  not  for  legislative  purposes  ;  and  all  apph- 
cations  to  divide  counties  were  founded  in  the  difficulty  of  going  to  the  courts  to 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


337 


serve  either  as  jurors  or  witnesses.  He  had  never  heard  any  other  causes  assigned, 
although  he  had  been  in  this  Hall  on  many  occasions,  when  apjjlications  of  this  kind 
were  made.    Pie  hoped  tliat  the  new  basis  v,^ould  not  supersede  that  of  the  free  whites. 

Mr.  Cooke  said,  tiiat  if  he  was  correctly  informed  in  the  Constitutional  History  of 
Virginia,  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk,  (Air.  Tazewell)  had  been  singularly  infelicitous 
in  attempting  to  support,  by  a  reference  to  tliat  history,  his  theory  of  the  true  princi- 
ples of  representation.  For  I  find,  said  Mr.  Cooke,  tliat  he,  too,  has  his  theories  of 
Government,  as  well  as  tlie  wild  democrats  of  ISIiddle  and  Western  Virginia. 

His  theory  is,  that  there  should  be  a  representation  of  interests,  in  the  legislative 
bodies,  as  contradistinguished  from  the  representation  of  numbers ;  and,  to  support 
this  theory,  he  has  attempted  to  shew  that  it  has  been  uniformly  acted  on  in  Virginia, 
even  from  the  first  establishment  of  legislative  bodies  in  tlie  Colony.  For  this  pur- 
pose, he  has  drawn  a  picture  of  the  Colony  at  that  period  of  its  infancy  when  the 
population  was  dispersed  in  detached  settlements,  or  plantations,  separated  from 
each  other  by  miglity  waters"  and  impenetrable  forests.  He  next  assumes  it  as  a 
fact,  without  even  attempting  to  prove  it,  that  each  of  these  settlements  had  some  pe- 
culiar interest  of  its  own — I  mean  an  interest  variant  from  that  of  its  neighbour  set- 
tlements. He  alleges  that  a  separate  representation  was  given  to  each  of  these  set- 
tlements, because  of  the  existence  of  these  separate  and  A'^ariant  interests  :  That,  in  pro- 
cess of  time,  when  the  settlements  were  enlarged  so  as  to  come  in  contact  with  each 
other,  it  became  necessary  to  designate,  by  artificial  boundaries,  the  limits  of  these 
separate  and  distinct  interests  :  That,  to  effect  this  purpose,  the  Colonial  Legislature, 
in  1G34,  erected  them  into  counties,  giving  to  each  county  an  equal  representation  in 
the  House  of  Burgesses.  And  thus  he  shows  that  his  favorite  theory  of  the  repre- 
sentation of  interests,  as  interests,  and  contradistinguished  from  the  representation  of 
numbers,  was  the  theory  of  the  earliest  L'uv-givers  of  the  Colony;  and  he  asserts  that 
it  has  remained,  to  the  present  day,  the  theoiy  of  representation  practically  adhered 
to  in  the  Constitution  of  Virginia,  and  so  is  entitled  to  prescriptive  respect. 

Now,  Sir,  I  appreliend  that  in  taking  this  view  of  the  subject,  the  gentleman  has 
fallen  into  a  mistake  not  uncommon  with  theorists.  Instead  of  conforming  his  theory 
to  the  facts,  he  has  made  his  facts  conform  to  his  theory. 

I  apprehend  that  a  more  accurate  version  of  our  early  Constitutional  History  will 
shew,  that  if  any  principle  of  representation  has  been  adopted  in  Virginia,  it  is  sub- 
stantially, the  principle  which  is  recommended  in  the  Report  of  the  Select  Commit- 
tee— the  principle,  that  in  apportioning  representation,  regard  should  be  had  to  the 
free  white  population  exclusively. 

The  first  chapter  in  the  Constitutional  History  of  Virginia  is,  tlie  ordinance  of  the 
24th  of  July,  l{)21.  On  that  day,  the  Treasurer  and  compan}'^  of  adventurers  of  the 
city  of  London,  for  tlie  first  Colony  in  Virginia,"  passed  an  ordinance  establishing 
the  Constitution  of  the  Colonj'^.  (1)  By  this  ordinance,  they  constituted  a  General 
Assembly,  to  consist  in  part,  of  Burgesses,  or  Representatives,  to  be  chosen  by  the 

inhabitants  '  of  the  different  plantations,  or  settlements.  And,  as  there  were,  at 
that  time,  no  slaves  in  the  Colony,  the  free  inhabitants  of  the  country  were  of  course 
the  basis  of  representation.  And  though  the  ordinance  did  not  direct,  that  the  free 
inhabitants  should  be  equaUij  represented,  yet,  as  equal  representation,  where  there  is 
a  representation  of  the  pcopJ/-,  is  the  most  obvious,  and  natural  idea, it  is  to  be  presumed, 
that  the  company  contemplated  a  representation  substantially  equal.  I  see  no  trace, 
in  this  first  organic  law  of  Virginia,  of  the  representation  of  interests,  and  no  evi- 
dence, any  where,  that  there  were  any  peculiar,  separate  and  distinct  interests,  ap- 
pertaining to  tlie  different  plantations  or  settlements.  Their  contiguity,  would  seem 
to  contradict  the  idea ;  and.  in  fact,  their  interests  were  homogeneous,  if  not  identi- 
cal. 

ProceedincT  to  the  next  era  in  the  Constitutional  History  of  the  Colony,  we  find  the 
gentleman  from  Norfolk,  asserting,  that  in  1634,  when  the  forests,  which  had  consti- 
tuted, for  a  time,  the  natural  barriers  between,  and  limits  of,  these  supposed  distinct 
interests,  had  disappeared,  and  they  were  in  danger  of  being  blended  together,  arti- 
ficial limits  were  substituted,  counties  erected,  and  two  Burgesses,  or  in  other  laords, 
equal  representation,  given  to  each  county.  And  this  measure,  he  says,  was  adopted, 
with  a  view  to  preserve  the  separate  representation  of  these  distinct  and  separate  m- 
terests.  Here  is,  indeed,  a  singular  adaptation  of  iho,  facts  to  the  theory.  But,  Sir,  it 
happens,  unfortunately  for  the  theory,  that  the  facts  are  not  historically  true.  It  is 
true,  that  the  Colony  was  first  divided  into  counties  in  1034  ;  but  it  is  not  true,  that 
the  counties  were  created  witli  any,  the  most  remote,  reference  to  representation,  at 
all.  The  counties  were  created  for  tico  avoiced  jntrposes,  and  for  no  other.  I  mean 
the  organization  of  the  military  force  of  the  Colony,  for  defence  against  the  Indians, 
and  the  administration  of  justice.  (2)    Not  a  \vord  is  said  about  the  representation  of 

(1)  See  Hening's  Statutes  at  Large,  vol.  1,  p.  TJO. 

(2)  See  Hening's  Statutes  at  Large,  vol.  1,  p.  224. 


43 


338 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION, 


these  counties,  or  about  the  representation  of  interests,  or  any  representation  at  all. 
And,  in  fact,  the  counties  were  not  represented  as  counties,  till  the  year  1G61 ;  nor 
does  any,  the  smallest  connexion  between  counties  and  represeiitation  appear  in  the 
Legislative  History  of  the  Colony,  till  1G45.  It  is  true,  that  in  the  last  mentioned 
year,  an  Act  was  passed,  declaring  that  not  more  than  four  representatives  should  be 
sent  from  each  county,  except  James  City  county,  which  was  allowed  six — besides 
one  for  the  town.  (3)  But,  it  is  equally  true,  that  at  the  time  of,  and  after  the  pas- 
sage of  tliat  Act,  the  parishes  also  were  allowed  to  send  representatives  to  the  Legis- 
lature, whenever  they  thought  proper.  (4) 

It  was  not  until  IGGl,  as  1  have  said,  that  the  counties,  «5  counties,  were  repre- 
sented in  the  General  Assembly.  In  that  year  an  Act  was  passed,  declaring  in  ef- 
fect, that  the  House  of  Burgesses  should  consist  of  two  representatives,  and  no  more, 
from  each  countij,  together  with  one  from  James  City,  "  the  metropolis  of  the  coun- 
try." And,  by  the  same  Act,  it  was  declared,  "  that  every  county  which  should  lay 
out  one  hundred  acres  of  land,  and  people  it  with  one  hundred  tithable  persons," 
should  have  the  privilege  of  sending  an  additional  Burgess.  (5) 

By  adverting  to  the  recital  of  that  Act,  you  will  find  that  the  cause  assigned  for 
the  reduction  and  equalization  of  the  representation  of  the  counties,  was  the  expense 
of  maintaining  the  great  number  of  Burgesses  sent  from  the  counties  and  parishes. 
*'  Whereas,  tiie  charge  of  assemblies  is  much  increased  by  the  great  number  of  Bur- 
gesses," &c. 

Thus  you  perceive,  Sir,  that  the  principle  of  representation  in  Virginia,  if  it  de- 
serves the  name  of  a  principle,  received  its  final  consummation,  its  last  finish,  from 
a  Colonial  Legislature  of  unlettered  tobacco-planters  in  1661.  The  Constitution  of 
Virginia,  which  is  gravely  declared,  even  on  this  floor,  to  have  been  the  work  of  the 
sages  and  patnoisof  177G,  7oas  actually  formed  and  finished  in  1661,  and  has  never  since 
been  modified,  in  this  great  and  leading  feature  of  the  representation  of  the  people.  This 
admirable  regulation — the  equal  representation  of  the  counties,  which  is  recommended 
to  our  love  and  veneration,  as  the  work  of  our  glorious  ancestors  in  1776,  was,  in  fact, 
a  paltry  Colonial  regulation — a  device  to  save  money — a  matter  of  pounds,  shillings 
and  pence ! 

It  is  true,  tliat  the  men  of  '7G  did  not  alter  it.  And  lohy  did  they  not  alter  it? 
Simply  because  they  could  not.  The  infant  Commonwealth  was  engaged,  as  I  had  oc- 
casion to  remark  in  a  former  debate,  in  a  war,  in  which  its  very  existence  was  at 
stake — in  a  war  which  required  the  united  direction  of  all  interests,  and  of  its  whole 
strength,  against  a  foreign  enemy.  The  sages  and  patriots  who  composed  the  Con- 
vention of  1776,  were  wise  and  practical  men.  What  extreme  folly,  what  absolute 
insanity,  would  it  have  been,  when  hostile  squadrons  were  riding  at  anchor  in  Hamp- 
ton Roads,  to  say  to  the  smaller  counties,  exposed  by  their  position  to  the  full  opera- 
tion of  all  the  seducticms  and  all  the  threats  of  the  enemy,  "  you  must  surrender  a 
part  of  the  poiver  you  have  aijoycd  under  the  Kingly  Gocernmcnt  for  one  hundred  and 
seventy  years.'"  Sir,  the  members  of  the  Convention  of  '76,  had  too  much  good  sense  ; 
too  much  practical  wisdom — to  attempt  so  mad  and  ill-timed  a  reform.  They  said,  what 
tliey  were  obliged  to  say,  that  tlie  representation  of  the  counties  should  remain  as  it 
was. 

Thus,  Sir,  it  appears,  tJiat  the  idea  of  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk,  that  the  repre- 
sentation of  interests,  as  interests,  contradistinguished  from  the  representation  of 
mimbers,  has  been  from  the  first  settlement  of  the  Colony,  tlie  theory  of  our  Govern- 
ment, lias  no  foundation  in  history ;  and  that  the  statement  of  facts  which  he  has  made 
to  support  his  theory,  is  altogetber  erroneous.  That  the  Act  of  1661,  which  estab- 
lished the  equal  representation  of  the  coimties,  considered  at  this  day  as  the  highest 
stretch  of  political  sagacity,  so  far  from  having  been  intended  to  establish  the  princi- 
ple tliat  interests  and  not  nvmibers  should  be  thereafter  represented,  or  any  principle, 
was  a  mere  fiscal  regulation,  of  which  penuriousness,  and  not  political  wisdom,  was 
tlie  author  and  source. 

In  fact.  Sir,  since  the  ordinance  of  1621,  no  principle  of  representation,  deserving 
the  name  of  a  principle,  has  ever  been  acted  on.  We  are  assembled  here  to  de- 
clare what  the  principle  of  representation  ought  to  he,  and  shall  be,  in  all  time  to 
come. 

The  question  what  is  the  true  principle,  is  one  which  I  have  heretofore  discussed, 
and  shall  not  now  touch.  The  gentleman  from  Norfolk  says,  that  the  true  principle 
by  which  to  regulate  the  apportionment  of  political  power,  is  the  representation  of  all 
the  different  interests  of  society — as  interests.  The  Bill  of  Rights  declares,  that  the 
true  principle  is  the  equal  representation  of  the  pcojde.  I  am  content  to  rest  the  ques- 
tion on  the  relative  weight  of  the  two  authorities. 

(3)  See  Hening's  Statutes  at  Large,  vol.  1,  p.  299. 

(4)  See  Hening's  Statutes  at  Large,  vol.  1,  jiagcs  411,421,  and  passim.  '  " 

(5)  See  Ilening'a  Statutes  at  Large,  vol-  2,  p.  20.  -  . 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


339 


Mr.  Leigh  said,  that  reference  having  been  made  to  the  Colonial  Government,  to 
disprove  the  statement  of  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk,  he  would  read  an  extract  from 
the  history  of  that  Government,  for  the  accuracy  of  which  he  would  vouch,  as  he 
took  great  pains  to  ascertain  facts.  Mr.  Leigh  then  read  a  note  wliich  is  appended  to 
the  Revised  Code,  first  volume,  page  33.*  It  appeared,  he  said,  tiiat  Bacon,  a  rebel, 
was  the  first  who  adopted  the  notion  of  Universal  Suffrage  in  the  country,  and  that 
he  had  it  from  the  soldiers  of  Crom well's  army. 

He  stated,  that  the  substance  of  the  note  which  he  had  read,  was  confirmed  in  its 
accuracy  by  the  late  Judge  Roane,  and  said  a  few  words  as  to  the  manner  of  dividing 
the  State  into  plantations,  districts  and  hundreds,  all  founded  on  that  principle  of  in- 
terest which  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk  had  alluded  to.  If  that  principle  was  not 
avowed,  there  could  be  no  doubt  that  it  was  the  principle. 

Again,  he  stated  tiiat  the  College  of  William  and  2vlary  was  allowed  a  representa- 
tive until  the  commencement  of  the  revolution.  It  was  represented  in  the  Conven- 
tion of  1775.  Why  was  this,  but  that  the  principle  of  the  interests  of  dilferent 
branches  was  acted  on  in  the  apportioirment  of  representation?  Here  was  a  repre- 
sentation of  the  learning  of  this  College,  which  had  been  until  lately  a  most  useful 
institution,  and  he  hoped  might  become  so  again.  He  considered  that  the  gentlemaa 
from  Norfolk  had  been  fully  sustained  in  his  statements  and  views. 

Mr.  Cooke  said,  that  he  had  not  learned  the  constitutional  history  of  Virginia  from 
the  notes  to  tJie  Revised  Code,  but  from  the  documentary  and  legislative  records  set 

*  As  to  the  form  of  the  Colonial  Goverament,  for  which  this  Constitution  vrds  substituted,  see  1  Charts 
^  7.  8,  15.  1  Hen.  st.  at  lar,  p.  CO,  1,  4.  Ruyid  in.-triictions  fur  tlie  gocernment  of  the  Colony,  Ibid.  p.  67. 
75.  2  CkaH.  $  8.  9.  10.  11.  12.  13.  14.  15.  23.  Ibid.  p.  89,  90,  1,  2,  5.  3  Chart.  §  G.  7.  8.  Jbid.  p.  102, 
3. — By  the  14th  section  of  the  second  charter  and  the  8th  of  the  third,  the  power  of  establishing  a  form 
of  government  and  magistracj'  for  the  Colony,  was  vested  in  the  council  and  general  court  of  the  Virginia 
company  in  England  which,  on  the  24th  July,  1621,  ordained  a  form  of  government  accordingly ;  where- 
by the  powers  of  the  Colonial  government  were  vested  in  a  governor  and  council  of  state,  appointed  by 
the  company  in  England  and  holding  during  its  pleasure,  and  a  house  of  burgesses,  two  from  every  town, 
hundred  and  particular  plantation,  to  be  respectively  chosen  by  the  inhahitaiits ;  and  this  council  of  state 
and  house  of  burgesses  formed  the  Colonial  legislature,  called  the  General  Assembly.  The  Colonial 
government  was  directed  to  conform,  in  legislation  and  jurisprudence,  to  the  English  government  and 
laws  ;  and  it  was  provided,  that  no  law  or  ordinance  made  b}-  the  General  Assembly,  should  be  v  alid,  un- 
less ratified  by  the  general  court  of  the  company  in  England,  and  returned  so  ratified  under  its  seal. 
See  Hiis  Constitution,  and  the  commission  and  instructions  to  the  first  gurenwr  under  it,  1  Hen.  st.  at  lar.  p, 
110.  113.  114.  In  1624,  the  crown  suppressed  the  Virginia  company  by  proclamation,  and  resumed  the 
powers  granted  to  the  company  ;  but  the  form  of  government  it  had  given  the  Colony,  remained  in  sub- 
stance unchanged.  It  appears,  that  the  constitution  of  the  Colonial  government  was  amended  b}"  George 
I.  and  instructions  were  given  by  George  II.  to  the  governor  Lord  ^llbemarle,  for  the  regulation  of  the  go- 
vernment according  to  the  amended  constitution  :  but  these  papers  are  not  to  be  found.  "The  King  always 
retained  the  control  over  the  Colonial  laws,  and  even  exercised  the  power  of  suspending  and  repealing 
them  5  powers,  often  exercised  capriciously,  always  complained  of  as  a  grievance,  sometimes  disputed, 
and  at  length  assigned  as  one  of  the  causes  of  the  revolution ;  see  5  Hen.  st.  at  lar.  432.  This  royal  pre^ 
rogative  had  a  most  important  influence  on  the  legislation  of  tlie  Coloaial  government.  Counties  or  shires 
were  first  established  in  1634.  1  Hen.  st.  at  lar.  p.  224.  It  seems  trom  our  ancient  records,  that  at  first, 
in  practice,  neither  the  towns,  hundreds  and  plantations,  wdiile  they  were  represented,  nor  the  counties, 
after  the  burgesses  were  elected  from  tliem,  were  restricted  to  tico  or  any  fi.xed  number  of  burgesses. 
In  1645,  the  number  was  limited  to  four  for  each  county,  except  James  City,  which  was  allowed  five, 
besides  one  for  Jamestown,  the  seat  of  government ;  1  Hen.  stut.  at  lar.  p.  299.  Afterwards,  particular 
parishes,  and  then  ali  parishes,  were  allowed  to  send  one  or  two  burgesses  Ibid.  250.  277.  421.  In  1660, 
the  number  of  burgesses  was  limited  to  two  for  each  county  and  one  for  Jamestown  in  James  City  coun- 
ty, with  like  privilege  to  every  county,  that  would  lay  out  100  acres  of  land,  and  people  it  with  100 
titheable  persons  ;  2  lijid.  p.  20.  106.— The  7th  article  of  the  present  constitution,  provides  that  the 
right  of  suffrage  for  menibcy-s  of  boHi  houses  of  Asscnihly,  shall  remain  as  exercised  at  present.  By  the 
constitution  of  July  1621,  above  cited,  the  i-iglit  of  suffrage  was  given  to  the  inhabitants ;  afterwards,  it 
seems,  only  freemen  were  allowed  to  vote  ;  1  Ibid.  p.  333,  4.  then  only  housekeepers;  Ibid.  p.  412.  then 
all  freemen  again.  Ibid.  p.  403.  475.  then  '■'■freclwlders  and  housekeepers,  who  only  are  ansicerahh  for  le- 
vies-j^^  2  Ibid.  280.  then,  by  Bacon's  laws,  all  freemen  again  ;  Ibid.  .356.  But  in  1677,  the  King  instructed 
the  Governor,  that  the  members  of  Assembly  should  be  elected  by  .f/-ee/wWcro-  only.  Ibid.  p.  ■&5.  In 
16S4,  it  was  resolved,  that  all  tenants  for  life  had  an  undoubted  right  cf  suffrage;  3  Ibid.  26.  In  1699, 
the  right  of  suffrage  was  confined  to  freeholders  (excluding  women,  infants  and  recusants  convict)  resi- 
dent in  the  respective  counties  and  towns ;  Ibid.  p.  2:38.  In  17.36,  the  right  of  suffrage  was  confined  to 
freeholders  of  an  hundred  acres  of  unsettled  land  or  twenty-five  acres  of  improved  land,  and  all  freehol- 
ders in  towns,  but  ^^^th  a  ri2ht  to  vote,  only  in  tlio  county  where  the  land  or  the  greater  part  of  it  lay  j 
4  Ibid.  475,  6.  The  city  of  Williamsburg  and  the  borough  of  Norfolk  were  allowed  a  representiitive, 
by  their  charters,  hy  which  the  right  of  siffragc  of  the  citizens  and  burghers  was  regulated,  but  after- 
wards somewhat  narrowed  by  law  5  Edi.  17i>9,  p.  122.  2^7.  It  seems,  that  till  17^i,  free  negroes,  i^idiajis 
and  mulattoes,  might  vote  at  elections  ;  but  by  the  acts  of  that  year,  c.  4.  $  23.  Edl.  1733.  p.  344,  they 
were  disqualified ;  and  that  particular  section  of  the  act  was  not  repealed,  though  the  rest  of  it  was  by 
royal  proclamation  in  1724.  Edi.  1769.  p.  15.  note  (a.)  Edi.  1762.  p.  103.  By  the  act  of  1769.  c.  1, 
the  quantity  of  unimproved  land,  necessary  to  qualifv  a  freeholder  to  vote,  wjis  reduced  to  fifty  acres  ; 
but  this  act  was  suspended  until  the  royal  approbation  should  be  signified,  and  such  approbation  wag 
never  signified.  The  ordinance  of  the  convention  of  1775,  providing  for  the  election  of  delegates  to  the 
convention  of  1776,  extended  the  right  of  suffrage  to  free  white  men,  inhabitants  of  Fincastle  and  West 
Augusta,  in  possession  of  the  requisite  quantity  of  land,  and  claiming  freeholds  therein,  though  they 
should  have  obtained  no  patents  or  legal  titles  to  their  lands. — Thus  stood  the  right  of  suffrage  when 
the  constitution  was  adopted.  By  the  act  of  178.5,  c.  55.  §  2.  the  qualification  of  the  freeholder  in  re- 
spect to  the  quantity  of  unimproved  land  M-as  reduced  from  100  to  50  acres  ;  the  legislature  either  re- 
garding the  act  of  1769,  as  effectual,  notwitlistanding  tlie  want  of  the  royal  assent;  or,  perhaps,  consi- 
dering that  wdiile  the  principle  of  freehold  qualiiicaliou  was  preserved,  a  ciiango  as  to  the  quantity  of 
land  was  consistent  with  the  coustitutiou. 


340 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


forth  at  length  in  "Hening's  Statutes  at  Large."  I  am,  nevertheless,  tliankful,  said 
he,  to  the  gentlexnan  from  Chesterfield,  (Mr.  Leigh,)  for  reading  the  long  and  elabo-  ^ 
rate  note  from  the  Revised  Code,  which  has  refreshed  my  recollection  of  sundry  par- 
ticulars which  I  pretermitted  in  the  sketch  that  1  gave  of  the  history  of  representa- 
tion in  Virginia,  because  I  did  not  consider  them  precisely  "germane  to  the  matter" 
under  consideration.  1  am  yet  to  learn,  however,  in  what  point  or  particular  I  have 
misstated  the  historical  facts  which  I  undertook  to  state.  I  said,  and  I  repeat,  that  the 
ordinance  of  1G21  recognized  the  free  "  inhabitants"  of  the  Colony  as  the  basis  of  re- 
presentation, and  1  have  heard  nothing  inconsistent  with  that  statement  in  the  history 
tlmt  has  been  read  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield. 

I  thank  him,  however,  for  calling  the  attention  of  the  Committee  to  the  history  of 
Suffrage  in  Virginia,  as  I  think  that  history  replete  with  valuable  and  interesting 
facts.  The  learned  gentleman,  Sir,  has  ventured  to  say  to  this  Committee,  that  the 
idea  of  Universal  Suffrage  was  never  heard  in  Virginia,  till  it  was  started  in  England 
by  those  crazy  enthusiasts,  tiie  '■'■agitators,'''  in  the  time  of  Cromwell;  and  that  it  was 
tln-ough  them  introduced  into  the  Colony.  I  confess  that  I  heard  this  statement  made 
with  no  small  surprise. 

What  is  the  meaning.  Sir,  of  the  phi-ase  "  Universal  Suffrage,"  as  commonly  used 
and  understood  by  intelligent  men  ?  Does  it  mean  a  Right  of  Suffrage  belonging  to, 
and  exercised  by,  all  tlie  men,  all  the  women,  and  all  the  cliildren  of  the  communi- 
ty.'' Such  an  absurdity  never  entered  into  the  head,  even  of  "a  reformer,'''  however 
"  hardened  his  heart  might  have  become  by  experimenting  on  the  rights  of  man,  to  ascer- 
tain ho2D  large  a  dose  of  French  principles  anight  he  administered  without  causing  their 
dcstniction."  It  means  a  Right  of  Suffrage  exercised  by  all  the  free  wen  of  a  commu- 
nity. And  precisely  to  this  extent  v/as  the  right  exercised  in  the  Colony  of  Virginia 
from  the  year  1621  till  the  year  1655.  The  ordinance  of  1021  secured  the  Right  of 
Suffrage  to  all  the  free  "  inhabitants"  of  the  Colony.  And  I  defy  the  gentleman  from 
Cliesterfield,  with  all  his  constitutional  lore,  to  show,  by  a  reference  to  the  legislative 
history  of  the  Colony,  that  it  was  taken  away,  or  even  assailed,  before  the  passage  of 
the  act  of  1655.  In  that  year  an  act  was  passed  declaring,  "  that  all  house-keepers, 
whether  freeholders,  leaseholders,  or  otherwise  tenants,  should  only  be  capable  to  elect 
Burgesses:  Provided,  that  tliis  word  house-keepers,  repeated  in  this  act,  extended  no 
further  than  to  one  p<erson  in  a  family."  (1) 

And  here.  Sir,  we  have  presented  to  us,  the  curious  discrepancy  between  the  state- 
ment made  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  and  the  real  facts  of  the  case  :  and 
not  discrepancy  only,  but  absolute  contrariety.  His  statement  is,  that  Universal  Suf- 
frage originated  in  England,  with  the  military  "agitators"  in  the  time  of  Cromwell, 
and  was  thence,  and  at  that  period,  transplanted  into  Virginia,  where  it  was  before 
unknown.  The  fact  is,  that  it  had  existed  in  the  Colony  from  the  earliest  period 
of  its  legislative  history,  and  was  first  assailed  in  the  time  of  the  "agitators"  of 
Cromwell,  who,  in  1655,  was  at  the  height  of  his  power  and  the  sovereign  of  Virgi- 
nia. Thus,  Sir,  these  crazy  "agitators,"  these  English  republican  enthusiasts,  rfe- 
stroycd,  instead  of  introducing  Universal  Suffrage.  They  were  the  first  to  introduce 
rationality  into  the  theretofore  irrational  regulation  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage.  I  say  ra- 
tionality. Sir,  because  I  am  no  advocate  for  Universal  Suffrage.  God  forbid  that  1  ever 
should  be. 

The  act  of  1655  was  repealed,  however,  in  the  following  year.  The  repealing  act 
declares,  in  the  quaint  language  of  the  age,  that  it  is  conceived  to  "  be  something  hard 
and  unagreeable  to  reason,  that  any  persons  shall  pay  equal  taxes,  and  yet  have  no 
votes  in  elections;  and  that  so  much  of  the  act  for  choosing  Burgesses  be  repealed,  as 
excludes //'cemc?!  from  votes."  (2) 

With  the  exception  of  this  interval  of  a  year,  Universal  Suffrage  prevailed  in  Vir- 
ginia, from  1621  till  1670.  In  the  year  last  mentioned,  an  act  was  passed  declaring 
that  "  none  but  freeholders  and  house-keepers,  who  only  are  answerable  to  the  pub- 
lic for  their  levies,  should  thereafter  liLve  any  voice  in  the  election  of  any  Bur- 
gesses."(3)  This  limitation  6f  the  Right  of  Suffrage  was  unpalatable  to  the  colonists, 
and  was  set  forth  as  one  of  the  grievances  by  which  the  popular  insurrection  of  1676 
was  justified.  I  call  it  a  popular  insurrection,  because  the  phrase  is  more  agreeable  to 
my  republican  notions  than  the  word  "  rehellion,'''  used  by  the  gentleman  from  Ches- 
terfield. Rebellion,  Sir !  then  what  were  the  men  of  1776,  but  rebels  against  the  royal 
authority  !  Nathaniel  Bacon  was  a  rebel,  who,  perhaps,  wanted  only  a  wider  theatre 
of  action  and  a  more  protracted  span  of  existence,  to  be  the  Washington  of  his  age. 
He  rose  in  arms  against  oppression,  and  a  democratic  Legislature,  or  one  under  his 
control,  while  it  redressed  many  real  grievances,  repealed  the  limitation  of  Suffrage, 

(1)  See  Hening's  Statutes  at  Large,  vol.  1,  page  412 

(2)  See  Hening's  Statutes  at  Large,'  vol.  1,  page  403.  The  repealing  act  precedes  the  act  repealed  in 
the  pa o-ing  of  "  Hening's  Statutes  at  Large,"  in  consequence  of  a  mistake  in  the  MS.  "  not  discovered 
in  time." 

(3)  Sec  Hening's  Statutes  at  Large,  vol.  2,  page  280. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONTENTION. 


341 


imposed  in  1G70.  His  democratic  code  was  repealed  in  its  turn,  in  1C7T.  and  two  re- 
giments of  Britisli  soldiers  vrere  sent  by  liis  most  gracious  Majesty.  Kmg  Charles  II. 
whose  Government  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  calls,  by  way  of  distmction,  the 
lawful  Government/"  to  disseminate  in  the  Colony  more  correct  notions  concerning 
civil  and  political  hberty.  This  worthless  tyrant — tlie  most  wortiiless  that  ever  filled 
the  throne  of  England— did  not  condescend  to  ask  of  the  trembling  Burgesses,  whom 
he  assembled  at  the  very  mouths  of  his  cannon,  and  at  the  very  point  of  his  bayonets, 
a  legislative  oxt  est^iblishing  the  freehold  lirn  itation  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage  in  Virginia  . 
He  ordered  his  Governor^  in  his  private  letter  of  instructions,  under  liis  royal  hand, 
"  to  take  care  that  the  members  of  the  Assembly  should  thereafter  be  elected  hj  free- 
holders only''  (4)  And  thus,  Sir,  the  freehold  limitation  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage  be- 
came the  laic  of  Virginia;  and  so  it  has  remained  to  the  present  day  :  3vlodified,  to 
be  sure,  from  time  to  time,  by  subservient  Colonial  Assemblies,  in  regard  to  tlie 
quantity  of  land  necessary  to  confer  the  right,  but  still  the  freehold  liviitation.  And 
with  these  slight  modifications,  it  remains  the  law  and  the  Constitution  of  Virginia 
to  the  present  day.  It  was,  in  1>377,  then,  and  not  in  1776,  that  tlris  boasted  regulation, 
the  acme  of  pohtical  wisdom,  became  a  part  of  the  Constitution  of  Virginia.  It  was 
dictated  by  a  tyrant,  and  thrust  down  the  throats  of  the  people  of  V  irginia  at  the 
point  of  the  bayonet.  And  this  is  the  principle  of  our  Constitution  which  we  are 
caUed  on  to  venerate — to  bow  down  and  worship,  as  the  wisest  and  best  of  all  the 
institutions /brmecZ  in  1776  by  the  sages  and  jjatriots  of  the  recolution.  This  is  the  in- 
stitution which  is  the  great  safeguard  of  propert}^,  and  the  palladium  of  our  liberties. 

Sir,  I  have  said  that  the  Constitution  of  Virginia,  as  it  regards  this  great  and  vital 
provision,  was  matured  and  completed  in  1677.  The  Convention  of  1776  found  it 
established  and  matured,  and  they  left  it  untouched.  And  wky  did  they  leave  it  un- 
touched Were  they  in  love  with  the  memory  of  its  author Or  were  they  true 
republicans,  as  they  unquestionably  were  partial  to  aristocratic  distinctions  and  privi- 
ledged  orders  ?  2So,  Sir;  they  left  it  untouched,  because  they  dared  not  touch  it.  It 
had  taken  deep  root,  and  could  not  be  torn  up  vrith  safety,  while  so  many  elements  of 
discord  were  already  at  work,  and  threatened  to  add  the  horrors  of  a  cicil  to  the  dan- 
gers of    foreign  war. 

Moreover,  the  poisonous  plant,  aristocracy,  had  grovm  up  and  flourished  under  the 
shadow  of  the  tree  of  royalty.  A  privileged  class  had  been  created,  not  only  by  the 
establishment  of  exclusive  pohtical  privileges,  but  by  extensive  grants  of  land  (o  the 
favorites  of  the  Crown.  There  was.  therefore,  a  lu7ided,  as  welTas  a  political  aristo- 
cracy. It  was,  like  all  pri-^dleged  classes,  tenacious  of  its  exclusive  privileges,  and 
like  all  wealthy  aristocracies,  proud  of  its  wealth.  To  a  class  like  this,  the  authors  of 
the  Bill  of  Rights,  genuine  and  bold  republicans  as  they  were,  did  not  dare  to  say,  in 
the  heat  of  a  war  which  put  in  requi^tion  all  the  wealth  and  all  the  resources  of  tlie 
country,  •'■  Your  reign  shall  cease — your  power  and  influence  are  at  an  end." 

They  said,  with  a  mournful  and  sententious  brevity,  The  Right  of  Suflracfe  shall 
remain  as  at  present  exercised." 

This.  Sir,  is  a  true  histery  of  the  rise  and  progress,  and  unhappily,  of  the  present 
state  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage  in  Virginia. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  that  the  gentleman  from  Frederick  needed  not  to  inform  him  that 
he  had  not  learned  the  history  of  Virginia  from  the  note  to  tlie  Revised  Cede.  His 
object  had  been  merely  to  put  the  Committee  in  possession  of  the  facts  which  were 
there  stated.  The  gentleman  had  not  only  studied  out  of  a  different  system  of  law, 
but  also  out  of  a  different  system  of  general  history,  or  he  would  not  have  said  that 
Bacon's  insurrection,  wliich  grew  out  of  a  private  feud,  was  a  stand  in  defence  of  the 
rights  of  man. 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  the  motion  of  3Ir.  Leigh,  to  amend  the  resolution, 
which  motion  was  decided  in  the  negatire — Ayes  47,  Noes  49. 

Some  difficulty  occurring  in  the  count,  the  names  of  members  were  called  over; 
but  as  the  vote  was  taken  in  Committee  of  the  Whole,  the  rule  of  order  does  not  per- 
mit the  yeas  and  nays  to  be  recorded  on  the  Journal.  We  have  obtained,  hovrever, 
tlie  following  list,  which  Vv'e  submit  to  satisfy  the  curiosity  of  readers. 

Ayes — Me'ssrs.  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Giles,  Brod- 
nax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Mason,  Trez- 
vant;  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison, 
Barbour  of  Orange,  Stanard,  Holhday,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Ca^ohne,  3Iorris.  Garnett, 
Barboyir  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,'  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,' Gria-sbv, 
Mennis,  Taliaferro,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Joynes.  Bayly,  Upshur,  and  Perrin. — i7r 

yoes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffman.  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson, 
M"Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith.  INIiller,  Baxter,  Monroe.  jNIercer.  Fitzhu^h,  Henderson, 
Cooke,  Powell.  Opie,  Griggs,  Naylor,  Donalson,  Bovd,  Pendleton,  George.  M'Millan' 
Campbell  of  Washington,"  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,'  Mathews,'  Oglesby,  Duncan^ 


(4)  See  Hening's  Statmes  at  Large,  vol.  2,  page  42o. 


342 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell 
of  Bedford,  Clay  tor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Stuart,  Tleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  and 
Massie. — 4!». 

^  So  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  rejected  the  proposition  to  base  the  representa- 
tion in  the  House  of  Delegates,  on  what  is  called  the  Federal  number,  consisting  of 
the  free  whites,  together  with  three-fifths  of  the  slaves. 
The  Committee  then  rose,  and  the  House  adjourned. 


TUESDAY,  November  17,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  eleven  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev. 
Mr.  Taylor  of  the  Baptist  Church. 

Mr.  Mercer  moved  tiiat  when  the  Convention  adjourn,  it  adjourn  to  meet  to-mor- 
row at  ten  o'clock,  (instead  of  eleven.)  The  motion  was  opposed  by  Mr.  Stanard, 
and  advocated  by  the  mover  and  Mr.  Doddridge  :  and  the  question  being  taken,  the 
House  appeared  equally  divided — Ayes  40,  Noes  40.  The  President  giving  his  casting 
vote  in  the  affirmative,  the  motion  was  carried. 

The  House  then  went  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  Powell  in  the  Chair. 

Mr.  Scott,  professing  his  earnest  desire  to  see  the  Convention  come  to  some  com- 
promise of  the  opposing  parties,  and  believing  that  object  would  be  promoted  by 
passing  over  this  subject  until  something  should  have  been  determined  on  the  limits 
of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  made  a  motion  to  take  up  the  next  resolution  reported  by 
the  Legislative  Committee. 

Mr.  Mercer  opposed  the  motion,  and  desired  that  the  amendment  to  the  first  reso- 
lution should  first  be  finally  disposed  of  in  the  Committee.  He  referred  to  other  im- 
portant questions  v/hich  had  been  decided  by  small  majorities,  and  disclaimed  on  the 
part  of  the  majority  any  thing  like  an  uncompromising  spirit. 

Mr.  Doddridge  rose  to  notice  a  remark  of  Mr.  Scott,  on  what  had  fallen  from  Mr. 
Johnson.  He  understood  Mr.  J.  to  have  stated  it  as  his  understanding  of  the  first 
proposition,  in  the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  that  representation  was  to  be 
apportioned  on  the  basis  of  qualified  voters  ;  and  he  had  added  that  he  supposed  this  to 
have  been  the  intention  of  the  mover  of  that  resolution  in  the  Legislative  Commit- 
tee. Now  Mr.  D.  said,  that  he  had  himself  been  the  mover  of  it,  and  such  an  inter- 
pretation was  certainly  very  far  from  his  purpose.  He  had  never  intended  any  such 
thing ;  nor,  so  far  as  he  knew,  had  such  an  interpretation  entered  into  the  mind  of 
the  Legislative  Committee.  His  doctrine,  an^  his  desire  was,  that  representation 
should  be  apportioned  according  to  the  entire  white  population.  If  this  was  settled, 
the  next  question  would  be,  to  whom  should  the  elective  franchise  be  extended.?  and 
then  a  third  would  present  itself,  viz :  to  whom  should  the  Constitution  be  finally 
submitted  for  adoption  or  rejection The  gentleman  had  added  a  word  of  caution, 
to  so  small  a  majority  as  to  their  undertaking  to  control  a  minority  so  numerous.  He 
admitted  that  the  majority  here  was  numerically  but  little  larger  than  the  minority  ; 
but  if  the  population  which  the  two  portions  of  the  House  represented  was  to  be 
taken  into  view,  it  would  be  found  that  the  difference  was  far  greater.  The  gentle- 
man had  said,  that  a  majority  so  small  ought  not  to  expect  to  carry  all  the  points  it 
might  have  in  view ;  but  surely,  if  this  was  a  good  argument  to  a  majority,  the  argu- 
ment applied  with  still  greater  force  to  those  who  represented  a  comparatively  small 
minority  of  the  free  citizens  of  this  Commonwealth. 

Mr.  Scott  said,  that  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun  seemed  averse  to  any  thing  like 
compromise.  The  gentleman  said,  that  he  did' not  possess  the  spirit  of  divination, 
and  therefore  could  not  tell  that  the  measure  which  they  were  pressing  would  finally 
succeed. 

Mr.  Mercer  explained.  The  gentleman  from  Fauquier  had  inferred,  from  his  un- 
willingness to  postpone  the  subject  of  the  basis  of  representation,  that  the  majority 
were  actuated  by  an  uncompromising  spirit. 

Mr.  Scott  sai'd,  that  he  had  brought  no  such  charge  against  the  majority.  Mr. 
Mercer  then  said,  that  he  must  have  misunderstood  him. 

Mr.  Scott  resumed.  The  gentleman  says,  that  he  has  not  the  spirit  of  divination, 
and  that  therefore  he  cannot  know  that  his  measure  will  succeed ;  but  on  that  princi- 
ple, no  compromise  can  ever  be  eflJected,  because  no  one  can  tell  whether  it  will 
succeed  until  it  is  first  proposed ;  and  so  unless  its  friends  have  the  spirit  of  divinationj^ 
they  are  not  to  make  the  experiment. 

The  gentleman  from  Brooke  says,  that  though  their  majority  in  this  House  is  small, 
it  represents  a  large  majority  of  the  people  of  the  State.  However  this  may  be,  I  am 
very  sure  of  one  thing  :  and  that  is,  that  the  minority  in  this  House  represents  a  large 
majority  of  the  freeholders  of  Virginia,    There  are  at  least  four  freeholders  East  of 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


343 


the  Blue  Ridge,  to  three  on  the  West  of  it.  The  proportion  of  tax-payers,  even  of 
the  smallest  tax,  down  to  a  single  cent,  is  nearly  the  same.  There  are  four  thousand 
two  hundred  tax-payers  East  of  the  Ridge,  to  three  thousand  six  hundred  West  of  it. 
So  that  the  minority  represented  a  large  majority  of  those  who  owned  the  soil,  and 
bore  all  the  burdens  of  the  Commonwealth. 

Mr.  Mercer  replied.  He  had  certainly  understood  the  gentleman  to  say,  that  the 
experience  of  the  Committee  manifested  the  fact,  that  the  majority  was  actuated  by 
an  uncompromising  spirit :  and  to  such  a  remark,  it  was  certainly  pertinent  to  reply, 
that  he  did  not  know,  when  he  voted  for  his  own  proposition,  whether  it  would  be 
accepted  or  not.  The  gentleman  from  Fauquier  possessed  very  different  facts,  or 
else  proceeded  on  a  very  different  system  of  arithmetic  from  himself;  and  he  averred 
that  the  gentleman  was  totally  mistaken  in  the  statement  he  had  made.  If  the  gen- 
tleman confined  the  majority  to  those  beyond  the  Ridge,  he  might  perhaps  be  right; 
but  if  he  added  those  in  the  large  counties  immediately  below  the  Ridge,  it  would  be 
found,  that  a  large  majority  of  the  tax-payers  of  the  State,  were  represented  by  a 
majority  on  this  floor.  In  support  of  this  statement,  Mr.  M.  referred  to  two  tables 
exhibiting  the  number  of  tax-payers  in  the  counties,  and  insisted  that  from  those 
tables,  it  weuld  appear  that  the  white  population  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  bore  to  the 
white  population  East  of  the  Ridge,  the  same  proportion,  as  the  tax-payers  West,  did 
to  the  tax-payers  East;  and  that  the  freeholders  of  twenty-five  acres  West  of  the 
R,idge,  were  to  those  East  of  the  Ridge,  in  the  like  proportion.  The  persons  charged 
with  land-tax  in  the  whole  State,  were  93,000;  of  these,  39,000  were  West  of  the 
Ridge,  and  53  East.  The  persons  who  paid  tax  on  moveable  property  in  the  whole 
State,  were  95,000 ;  of  whom,  40,000  resided  West  of  the  Ridge,  and  55,000  East  of 
it.  Of  the  white  population,  the  total  number  was  000,000 ;  of  whom,  250,000  were 
West  of  the  Ridge,  and  350,000  East  of  it.  Here,  then,  there  was  little  difference  be- 
tween the  three  ratios.  The  gentleman  from  Fauquier  had  argued  on  the  illusory 
idea,  that  the  distribution  of  property  was  different  on  the  two  sides  of  the  R,idge. 
Such  a  notion  was  entirely  unfounded,  and  inconsistent  with  the  actual  state  of  the 
fact.  If  the  gentleman  would  add  those  in  favour  of  a  new  Constitution,  who  live 
below  the  Ridge,  to  those  who  live  beyond  it,  he  would  find  that  there  was  a  large 
majority. 

Mr.  Stanard  said,  that  if  it  was  regular  to  receive  the  statements  of  the  gentlemen 
on  the  other  side  of  the  House,  as  going  to  support  one  view  of  a  subject,  it  must  be 
regular  to  receive  statements  from  the  same  side,  when  bearing  in  an  opposite  direc- 
tion. Now,  the  statements  just  given  by  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  were  in  hos- 
tility with  those  of  his  coadjutor  from  Augusta.  The  gentleman  insisted,  that  the 
ratio  of  freeholders  and  of  tax-payers  on  the  two  sides  of  the  Ridge,  did  not  differ 
from  that  of  the  white  population.  He  should  confront  this  assertion,  by  the  state- 
ments made  by  the  gentleman  from  Augusta.  According  to  the  gentleman  from  Au- 
gusta, the  freeholders  from  the  West,  were  to  those  in  the  East,  as  tliirty-six  to  fifty- 
six.  According  to  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  they  were  as  forty  to  fifty-three. 
The  gentleman  asserted  this,  in  total  disregard  to  a  consideration  which  all  knew 
ought  to  have  great  influence  on  the  calculation  :  that  a  large  proportion  of  persons 
charged  with  land-tax  in  the  West,  are  non-residents  there,  and  live  either  in  Eastern 
Virginia,  or  without  the  bounds  of  the  State.  If  due  allowance  v/ere  made  for  this  ' 
circumstance,  the  proportion  would  not  be  thirty-six  to  fifty-six,  but  thirty -three  to 
fifty-six ;  or  rather  thirty-three  to  fifty-nine,  if  the  three  taken  from  the  West  were 
to  be  added  to  the  East.  In  Richmond  alone,  there  were  more  than  one  hundred 
persons  who  owned  freeholds  to  the  West  of  the  Ridge.  He  would  now  proceed  to 
confront  the  statement  of  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  with  that  of  the  gentleman 
from  Augusta.  ^ 

Mr.  Doddridge  enquired  whether  this  discussion  was  in  order. 

Mr.  Stanard  contended  that  it  was,  as  he  should  not  go  one  w^ord  beyond  correcting 
the  mistake,  the  great  and  extravagant  mistalve,  of  the  gentleman  froni  Loudoun  : 
and  in  doing  so,  he  should  employ  the  statements  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta* 
only  as  a  means  of  giving  more  force  and  effect  to  the  correction.  The  gentleman 
from  Loudoun  had  affirmed,  that  the  ratio  of  the  v*^hite  population  on  the  two  sides  of 
the  Ridge,  was  nearly  the  same  with  that  of  the  tax-payers  and  land-holders.  But 
what  said  the  tables  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta  ? 

Mr.  S.  after  quoting  them  at  large,  stated  the  result  to  be  as  follows  : 

The  ratio  of  white  population  was  fifty-six  on  the  West,  to  sixty-three  on  the 
East :  of  land-holders,  forty-six  West  to  seventy-three  East :  and  of  tax-payers  fifty 
on  the  West  to  seventy  on  the  East.  '  ^ 

With  these  statements  staring  him  in  the  face,  the  gentleman  had  told  the  Com- 
mittee, without  reserve,  and  without  qualification,  that  the  ratios  were  nearly  the 
same.  He  had  felt  it  due  to  the  Committee,  and  to  tlie  public,  that  the  asserUon 
should  not  go  unconfronted  with  the  document. 


344 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  Mercer  said,  in  repl^^,  that  he  owed  many  obligations  to  the  gentleman  from 
Spottsylvania ;  but  the  correction  of  his  facts,  was  not  one  of  the  number.  He  pro- 
tested against  this  mode  of  collating  his  remarks  with  the  calculations  made  by  another 
gentleman.  He  was  responsible  for  his  own  statements  and  his  own  calculations, 
and  for  them  alone.  The  gentleman  from  Augusta  would  be  the  last  to  require  his 
support.  The  tables  to  which  the  gentleman  had  referred,  went  upon  the  estimated 
population  of  1829.  He  had  already  said,  that  he  repudiated  those  tables,  and  rejected 
them  as  utterly  incorrect:  he  had  shown  how  grossly  erroneous  they  were,  in  refer- 
ence to  his  own  district,  and  he  certainly  was  not  bound  to  abide  by  tables  which  he 
did  not  admit. 

Mr.  Stanard  rephed,  that  the  statements  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  which  he 
had  quoted,  did  not  rest  on  the  computations  of  the  Auditor,  to  which  the  gentleman 
from  Loudoun  now  referred.  The  computation  of  the  Auditor,  whether  accurate  or 
inaccurate,  had  nothing  to  do  with  the  question. 

Mr.  Mercer  replied,  that  the  gentleman's  explanation  was  wholly  unanswerable. 
The  tables  referred  to,  were  based  on  som.e  calculation  of  the  white  population,  as 
existing  in  18:29.  He  rejected  these  calculations,  as  uncertain,  and  adhered  to  the 
Census  of  18.20.  According  to  that  Census,  the  white  population  West  of  the  Ridge, 
amounted  to  250,000,  and  that  East  of  the  Ridge,  to  353,000;  that  is,  they  were  in 
the  proportion  of  tv/enty-five  to  thirty-five. 

Mr.  Mercer  then  referred  to  the  list  of  county  taxes,  which  went  to  show,  that 
taxation  on  the  two  sides  of  the  Ridge,  was  in  the  proportion  of  forty  to  fifty-five. 
Of  those  who  were  taxed  for  freeholds  of  twenty-five  acres  and  over,  39,110  resided 
West  of  the  Ridge,  and  53,055  resided  East  of  it.  He  would  lay  the  paper  contain- 
ing these  calculations  on  the  Clerk's  table,  that  any  gentleman,  wishing  to  examine  it, 
might  have  an  opportunity  of  doing  so.  He  did  not  pretend  to  know  where  all  the' 
persons  resided,  who  v/ere  charged  with  taxes  on  real  estate ;  nor  did  he  know  how 
many  persons  residing  East  of  the  Ridge,  owned  land  to  the  West  of  it;  but  he  had 
travelled  over  the  State  ten  times  as  much  as  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania  had 
ever  done,  and  he  claimed  to  know  as  much  of  the  condition  of  its  people. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  recalled  the  Convention  to  the  motion  of  Mr.  Scott,  which  he  op- 
posed as  likely  still  farther  to  procrastinate  the  decision  of  the  Convention  on  the 
questions  before  it:  he  then  proposed,  as  a  measure  calculated  to  bring  the  House  to 
some  result  in  part,  and  hasten  the  disposal  of  the  other  questions,  that  the  Commit- 
tee should  rise,  and  report  the  first  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee  to  the 
House  ;  announcing  it  to  be  his  intention  subsequently  to  move,  that  the  whole  of 
the  residue  of  the  business  be  turned  over  to  a  small  Select  Committee,  to  be  chosen 
by  the  Convention  from  its  most  moderate  and  influential  members,  who  should  be 
charged  with  the  duty  of  reporting  the  draft  of  a  Constitution.  With  this  under- 
standing, he  moved  that  the  Committee  rise. 

Mr.  Leigh,  opposed  the  object  of  Mr.  Fitzhugh,  as  likely  to  lead  to  a  repetition  of 
all  the  difticulties  already  felt,  and  in  the  end  to  produce  greater  delay  than  the  pre- 
sent course. 

Mr.  Doddridge,  concurred  in  these  views,  but  was  in  favour  of  the  Committee's 
rising  and  reporting  the  first  resolution,  that  its  fate  might  be  decided  in  Convention. 
And  the  subject  of  representation  being  thus  disposed  of,  it  might  serve  as  a  guide  to 
the  Convention  in  the  rest  of  their  discussions.  He  could  not  fix  upon  his  coarse  as 
to  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  till  he  knew  what  was  to  be  done  as  to  the  basi^of  repre- 
sentation. 

Mr.  Leigh,  opposed  the  motion  to  rise,  and  wished  the  Committee  to  proceed  to 
the  question  of  Suffrage,  laying  the  resolution  now  under  consideration,  aside  for  the 
present. 

Mr.  Stanard,  took,  in  substance,  the  same  view,  and  earnestly  opposed  the  motion 
for  reporting  on  one  resolution  in  a  series  of  resolutions,  all  intimately  connected  : 
this  he  contended,  to  be  wholly  without  precedent  in  Parliamentary  usage.  Besides, 
the  sense  of  the  resolution  to  be  reported  was  not  fixed  :  The  gentleman  from  Au- 
gusta, understanding  it  to  apply  only  to  qualified  voters — the  gentleman  from  Brooke 
understanding  it  as  referring  to  all  the  white  jjopulation  whether  voters  or  not. 

After  some  explanation  as  to  the  point  of  order, 

Mr.  Johnson  opposed  the  rising  of  the  Committee  :  he  thought  the  two  great  and 
leading  subjects  of  Representation  and  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  ought  to  be  considered 
in  connexion  with  each  other.  He  was  therefore  in  favour  of  Mr.  Scott's  proposal, 
to  pass  over  the  first  for  the  present,  and  to  go  on  till  the  other  should  be  arrived  at  in 
order. 

The  question  was  now  taken  on  Mr.  Fitzhugh's  motion,  for  the  rising  of  the  Com- 
mittee, and  decided  in  the  negative — Ayes  40 — Noes  48. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Leigh,  the  Committee  then  passed  by  the  first  resolution  re- 
ported by  the  Legislative  Committee,  (viz.  that  which  refers  to  the  basis  of  represen- 
tation,) and  took  up  the  second  resolution,  which  is  in  the  following  words  : 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


345* 


Resolved.  That  a  Census  of  the  poptilation  of  the  State,  for  the  purpose  of  appar- 
tioning  the  representation,  should  be  taken  m  the  year  1S31,  the  jeai  1845,  and  there- 
after, at  least  once  in  every  twenty  years." 

Mr.  Doddridge,  moved  to  amend  this  resolution,  by  striking  out  in  the  third  line, 
all  after  the  word  -  3'ear.''  and  inserting  a  clause  to  make  the  whole  resolution  read — 
Resolved,  That  a  Census  of  the  population  of  the  State,  for  the  purpose  of  ap- 
portioning the  representation,  should  be  taken  in  the  year  1835,  and  at  least  every  ten 
years  thereafter,  if  the  Assembly  shall  deem  the  same  expedient;  and  that  a  new  ap- 
portionment of  representation  shall  be  made  after  each  Census,  if  the  state  of  the 
population  shall  have  been  so  changed  as  to  require  it." 

Mr.  Doddridge  explained  his  reasons  for  offering  the  amendment.  The  State  Cen- 
sus, if  taken  at  the  periods  he  proposed,  would  fall  into  the  inter%^s  of  the  General 
Census  of  the  United  States,  and  would  correct  the  inaccuracies  of  that  enumeration; 
which  had,  in  some  cases,  been  made  in  a  very  loose  manner. 

Mr.  Leigh  suggested,  that  though  the  amendment  made  it  imperative  that  a  Cen- 
sus should  be  taken,  as  the  basis  of  representation,  it  did  not  require  an}^  assessment 
to  accompany  it.  It  secured  to  the  West  all  the  benefits  of  increased  representation, 
but  did  not  require  a  corresponding  increase  of  taxation. 

Mr.  Doddridge,  requested  Mr.  Leigh  to  add  a  clause  to  supply  this  defect :  which 
he  declining. 

Mr.  ^Mercer,  moved  to  add  the  clause,  and  an  assessment  thereof  made."  He  in- 
sisted that  the  duty  of  taking  the  Census  ouglit  not  to  be  left  discretionary,  but  should 
be  made  imperative  on  the  Legislature.  He  dwelt  upon  the  advantage  of  having  the 
Census  taken  frequently,  and  so  made  as  to  include  a  variet}''  of  statistical  informa- 
tion :  the  expense  would  be  but  small. 

After  some  fmiher  conversation  between  ^Messrs.  Leigh,  Doddridge  and  Mercer, 
the  resolution  was  amended  by  striking  out  the  clause  which  leaves  it  discretionary 
with  the  Legislature  :  and,  after  some  farther  opposition,  on  the  part  of  Mr.  Stanard, 
the  resolution  was,  at  the  suggestion  of  Mr.  Cooke,  passed  over  for  the  present,  to 
give  the  gentleman  from  Brooke  a  better  opportunity  of  digesting  his  proposition. 

The  Committee  then  proceeded  to  the  consideration  of  the  third  resolution  reported 
by  the  Legislative  Committee,  in  the  words  following  : 

•'•  Resolved.  That  the  Right  of  Suffrage  shall  continue  to  be  exercised  by  all  who 
now  enjoy  it  under  the  existing  Constitution  :  Provided,  that  no  person  shall  vote  by 
virtue  of  his  freehold  only,  unless  the  same  shall  be  assessed  to  the  value  of  at  least 
dollars,  for  the  paj-ment  of  taxes,  if  such  assessment  be  required  by  law  : 
and  shall  be  extended,  first,  to  every  free  white  male  citizen  of  the  Commonwealth 
resident  therein,  above  the  age  of  twent^'-one  years,  who  owns,  and  has  possessed  for 
six  months,  or  who  has  acquired  by  marriage,  descent,  or  devise,  a  freehold  estate,  as- 
sessed to  the  value  of  not  less  than  dollars  for  the  payment  of  taxes,  if  such 
assessment  shall  be  required  by  law  :  second,  or  who  shall  own  a  vested  estate  in  fee, 
in  remainder,  or  reversion,  in  land,  the  assessed  value  of  wliich  shall  be 
dollars  :  third,  or  who  shaU  own  and  have  possessed  a  leasehold  estate  with  the  e-\d- 
dence  of  title  recorded,  of  a  term  orio-inally  not  less  than  five  years,  and  one  of  which 
shall  be  unexpired,  of  the  annual  value,  or  rent  of  dollars  :  fourth,  or  who  for 
twelve  months  next  precedincr,  has  been  a  house-keeper  and  head  of  a  family  within 
the  county,  city,  borough,  or  election  district,  where  he  may  offer  to  vote,  and  who 
shall  have  been  assessed  with  a  part  of  the  revenue  of  the  Commonwealth  witliin  the 
preceding  year,  and  actually  paid  the  same:  Provided,  nevertheless,  that  the  Right 
of  Suffrao;e  shaU  not  be  exercised  b}'  any  person  of  unsound  mind,  or  who  shall  be  a 
pauper,  or  a  non-commissioned  officer,  soldier,  sailor  or  marine,  in  the  service  of  the 
United  States,  nor  bv  any  person  convicted  of  any  infamous  offence  ;  nor  by  citizens 
born  without  the  Commonwealth,  unless  they  shall  have  resided  therein  for  five  years 
immediately  preceding  the  election  at  which  they  shall  offer  to  vote,  and  two  years 
preceding  the  said  election,  in  the  county,  city,  borough,  or  election  district,  where 
they  shall  offer  to  vote,  (the  mode  of  proving  such  previous  residence,  when  disputed, 
to  be  prescribed  by  law.)  and  shall  possess,  moreover,  some  one  or  more  of  the  quali- 
fications above  enumerated." 

Mr.  Leigh,  pointed  out  an  effect  which  he  presumed  was  not  seriously  intended, 
but  which  would  arise  from  the  resolution,  as  it  now  stood.  According  to  the  proviso, 
no  freeholder  was  allowed  to  vote  miless  his  freehold  was  of  a  certain  value  (not  yet 
fixed  upon ;)  but,  according  to  a  subsequent  clause,  any  house-keeper  who  has  paid 
"  any  part  of  the  revenue  ot  the  Commonwealth,"  is  allowed  to  vote.  Suppose  the 
value  of  the  freehold  be  fixed  at  any  given  sum,  say  twenty  dollars  :  and  suppose  a 
freeholder  owns  a  house  worth  nineteen  dollars;  and  suppose,  farther,  that  in  that 
house,  there  resides  a  tenant  who  owns  a  singrle  horse  ;  the  result  will  be,  that  the 
landlord,  who  owns  the  house,  is  forbidden  to  vote,  while  the  tenant  who  pays  a  tax 
of  four  cents  on  his  horse,  is  admitted  to  the  polls.  Could  it  be  seriously  intended 
not  merely  to  abolish  the  freehold  qualification,  but  to  make  it  a  less  qualification  than 

44 


346 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONTENTION. 


the  payment  of  the  very  smallest  tax  ?  Taking  it  for  granted,  that  this  could  not  he 
the  purpose  of  the  resolution, 

Mr.  Leigh,  moved  to  amend  it,  so  as  to  make  the  fourth  qualification  read,  "  or  who, 
for  twelve  months  next  preceding,  has  been  a  house-keeper  and  head  of  a  family^ 
within  the  covmty,  city,  borough,  or  election  district,  where  he  may  offer  to  vote,  and; 
who  shall  have  been  assessed  with  a  part  of  the  revenue  of  the  Commonwealth,  toths 
amount  of  within  the  preceding  year,  and  actually  paid  the  same." 

Mr.  Randolph  said,  that  he  rose  simply  to  make  a  suggestion  to  the  gentleman  from 
Chesterfield,  and  one  to  the  Committee.  I  believe,  said  he,  that  1  shall  hardly  be 
contradicted,  when  I  state  that  the  great  moving  cause,  which  led  to  this  Convention^ 
has  been  the  regulation  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage.  After  all  the  out-cry  that  has  been 
raised  on  this  subject,  judge  my  surprise,  when  I  found  that  a  proposition  coming 
from  the  Legislative  Committee,  and  which  extends  the  Right  of  Suffrage  almost  a5 
indefinitum,  to  many  entire  classes  of  persons  within  the  Commonwealth;,  contained 
a  blow  at  the  elective  franchise  of  the  freeholder,  the  present  sovereign  of  this  land. 
We  are  met  to  extend  the  Right  of  Suffrage ;  nobody  can  tell  how  far  under  the 
out-cry  that  it  is  too  much  restricted,  and  the  very  first  step  we  take,  is  to  restrict  it 
still  farther,  quoad  the  freeholder.  Do  gentlemen  suppose  the  freeholders  will  be 
blind  to  this  ^  What  becomes  of  all  the  considerations  of  philanthropy  of  which  w© 
have  heard  so  much.?  What  becomes  of  all  the  gentlemen's  abstractions.?  Sir,  the 
only  good  1  ever  knew  these  abstractions  to  do,  is  to  abstract  money  out  of  the  pock- 
ets of  one  great  division  of  the  country,  to  put  it  into  the  pockets  of  another,  a  spe- 
cies of  abstraction  the  least  of  all  others  to  my  taste. 

Sir,  I  demand,  as  a  freeholder,  in  behalf  of  the  freeholders,  on  what  plea  you  are 
to  put  them,  and  them  only,  to  the  ban  of  this  Convention .?  Other  and  large  classes 
of  persons  are  selected  to  be  drawn  within  the  range  of  the  elective  privilege,^  whil® 
the  poorer  classes  of  the  freeholders  are  to  be  disfranchised.  So,  after  all,  this  great 
and  illustrious  Assembly  are  met  to  make  war  on  the  poorer  classes  of  the  freeholders-, 
of  the  Commonwealth.  You  are  not  only  to  extend  rights,  but  you  are  to  take  away 
the  rights,  the  vested  rights,  of  a  large  and  respectable,  however  they  may  be  a  poor,, 
class  of  your  fellow-citizens.  Sir,  I  will  never  consent  to  deprive  the  freeholder  of 
his  rights,  however  trivial  in  the  view  of  assessors  or  patricians,  his  humble  shed  may 
appear.  I  saw  this  measure  in  the  Legislative  Committee,  and  I  thought  I  saw,  what 
I  think  I  now  see,  (here  Mr.  R.  pointed  with  his  finger,)  a  snake  in  the  grass.  I  will 
never  consent  to  be  the  agent  in  taking  away  from  any  man  the  Right  of  Suffrage  he 
now  enjoys. 

Mr.  Mercer  observed,  that  the  proviso  was  not  chargeable  upon  tlie  advocates  of 
the  Convention,  having  been  moved  in  the  Legislative  Committee  by  a  gentleman, 
(Mr.  Green,)  who  had  always  opposed  it.  Mr.  M.  explained  the  object  of  the  mover 
to  have  been  the  prevention  of  frauds,  but  thought  it  unnecessary,  as  by  a  subsequent 
clause,  paupers  were  excluded  from  the  polls;  and  fraudulent  evasions  of  the  Con- 
stitution must  be  left  to  be  remedied  by  the  Legislature. 

Mr.  Leigh,  consented  to  withdraw  the  amendment  he  had  offered;  but  announced 
his  intention  to  be,  after  the  resolution  should  have  been  made  as  perfect  as  was  in 
the  power  of  its  friends,  to  move  to  strike  out  the  whole,  and  substitute  another,  which 
he  read  in  his  place,  (and  which  went,  in  his  view,  to  extend  the  Right  of  Suffrage 
to  such  tenants,  as  were  in  circumstances  to  vote  independently  of  their  landlords.) 

Mr.  Mercer,  moved  to  strike  out  the  whole  proviso,  fixing  a  value  to  the  freehold. 

Mr.  Green  said,  the  proviso  had  been  introduced  at  his  suggestion.  It  was  a  noto- 
rious fact,  that  in  the  Western  part  of  the  State  there  were  bothes  of  land  not  worth 
a  cent  an  acre,  which  had  been  taken  up  by  speculators  with  a  prospect  of  imposing 
on  foreigners,  and  that  in  some  cases,  several  different  patents  had  been  issued  for 
the  same  land.  If  the  freehold  should  be  regulated  by  quantity  alone,  and  no  prescribed 
value  be  required,  it  v/as  manifest,  that  one  of  these  large  land-holders  would  be  able 
to  create  at  will,  as  many  freeholders  as  he  pleased.  Practices  of  that  sort  had,  in 
some  instances,  already  prevailed,  and  would,  doubtless,  again  be  resorted  to.  The 
sole  purpose  of  the  proviso,  had  been  to  exclude  such  as  were  merely  nominal  free- 
holders, who  paid  no  taxes,  and  were  entitled  to  no  voice  in  the  Commmonwealth. 
His  object  had  been  to  lay  down  such  a  plain  and  practical  rule  as  it  would  be  hard  to 
evade  by  fraud.  Gentlemen  from  that  part  of  the  country  confirmed  the  existence 
of  such  practices. 

Mr.  Stanard  said  he  should  vote  against  expunging  the  proviso.  Not  because  he 
thought  with  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte,  that  it  would  deprive  the  poor  freehol- 
der of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  but  for  the  purpose  of  guaranteeing  and  giving  security 
to  his  right,  and  with  a  view  to  make  the  general  provision  operate  with  some  degree 
©f  equality.  It  would  make  that  which  was  not  a  real  limitation  in  the  Eastern  part 
of  the  State,  to  be  a  real  limitation  in  the  Western  part  of  it.  No  one  could  cast  his 
eye  over  the  Western  part  of  Virginia,  without  being  satisfied,  that  the  physical  con- 
dition of  the  country  was  sucJij  as  put  it  in  the  power  of  any  personj  at  an  expense 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


34f 


not  exceeding  the  price  of  the  paper  on  which  a  deed  could  be  executed,  to  qualify 
himself  as  a  voter;  and  there  were  individuals  there  who  could  qualify  voters  by  the 
hundred.  The  quantity  of  land  on  the  Assessors'  books,  bore,  in  some  cases,  scarce 
any  relation  to  the  land  actually  in  the  county,  yet  deeds  could  be  given  for  these 
imaginarjr  freeholds,  which  existed  no  where  but  on  paper,  to  almost  any  amount. 

The  average  valuation  of  all  the  lands,  in  some  of  the  counties,  was  less  than  five 
cents  an  acre,  good  and  bad.  Much  of  it  was  fit  only  for  lairs  for  wild  beasts.  It 
was  not  worth  one  mill  per  acre.  In  this  situation  of  things,  how  would  the  rule  ope- 
rate on  the  rights  of  persons  in  different  parts  of  the  State  ?  The  rule  gives  the  Right 
of  Suffrage,  not  to  value,  but  to  quantity.  In  the  West,  a  certain  quantity  of  land, 
not  worth  five  cents  in  all,  was  sufficient  to  make  a  man  a  voter,  while  in  tlie  East, 
the  smallest  quantity  of  land,  communicating  the  same  privilege,  was  worth  from 
fifty  to  one  hundred  dollars.  This,  surely,  was  great  inequality,  and  tlie  hmitationin 
the  proviso,  was  all  that  prevented  it.  He  understood  that  the  mountain  land.  West 
of  the  Ridge,  consisted,  for  the  most  part  of  rocks  and  shrubbery  of  no  conceiv- 
able value.  No  person  who  visited  it,  could  so  much  as  conjecture,  that  it  ever 
could  become  of  any  value,  unless  this  State  should  become  as  full  of  people  as 
China  is,  or  unless  the  mountains  contained  minerals  which  gave  them  a  value  that 
was  concealed  from  the  eye.  But,  to  provide  for  this  possibility,  when  deeds  were 
made,  the  title  was  conveyed  with  a  reservation  for  any  minerals  tliat  the  soil  might 
contain.  He  enquired  of  gentlemen,  whether  such  a  state  of  things  was  not  wor- 
thy of  consideration,  and  whether  it  did  not  imperiously  require,  that  some  amount 
should  be  fixed  as  the  value  of  the  freehold.  The  limitation  he  would  give,  would 
be  such  as  should  not  only  embrace  all  the  poor  freeholders  now  entitled  to  vote,  but 
should  confer  that  right  on  many  who  were  now  deprived  of  it.  Freeholds  of  the 
present  size,  if  situated  near  a  town,  were  worth  more  than  he  would  require.  The 
proviso  went  to  extend  the  basis  of  representation,  yet  it  confined  the  Right  of  Suf- 
frage to  a  landed  qualification,  while  it  excluded  freeholders  Avho  were  merely  no- 
minal. 

Mr.  M' Coy  said,  that  the  gentleman  last  up,  appeared  to  labor  under  some  strange 
mistake,  in  relation  to  the  lands  and  the  soil  of  the  West,  He  underrated,  in  a 
surprising  manner  that  portion  of  the  handy  w^orks  of  the  great  Creator.  Between 
the  Blue  Ridge  and  the  Ohio,  there  lay  a  beautiful  and  fertile  valley,  of  which  the 
gentleman  seemed  to  have  but  little  knov/ledge,  nor  did  he  seem  to  be  any  better  ac- 
quainted with  the  mountains  than  with  the  vallies  of  that  country.  The  gentleman 
had  represented  the  land,  as  belonging,  in  great  part,  to  individuals  who  lived  East 
of  the  Ridge,  and  had  said  that  one- tenth  part  of  the  whole  soil  was  the  property  of 
owners  living  elsewhere.  The  gentleman  was  much  mistaken.  That  country  was 
surveyed  in  1795,  in  large  tracts  of  from  fifty  to  one  hundred  thousand  acres.  The 
number  of  owners  were  then  not  very  great.  Where  the  land  turned  out  not  to  be 
valuable,  the  taxes  upon  it  were  not  paid,  and  the  lands  had  become  forfeited  to  the 
Literary  Fund  of  the  Commonwealth:  The  owners,  therefore,  had  it  not  in  their 
power  to  make  such  batches  of  freeholders  as  some  gentlemen  seemed  to  suppose, 
Mr.  M.  said,  he  happened  to  live  where  there  was  much  of  this  sort  of  land,  and  as 
to  what  had  been  represented  by  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  (Mr.  Green,)  as  so 
very  common  a  practice,  he  had  known  of  but  four  freeholders  having  been  created 
in  fourteen  years,  and  their  votes  had  been  pronounced  good  for  nothing,  because  the 
law  required  six  months  possession.  It  was  very  true  that  a  young  man  might  pur- 
chase the  right  to  vote  for  forty  or  fifty  dollars  ;  but  not  for  five  cents,  as  was  sup- 
posed, because  all  the  lands  not  fit  for  cultivation  had  been  forfeited  to  the  Common- 
wealth. The  gentleman  in  one  breath,  had  represented  the  country  as  being  the  finest 
in  the  world,  and  had  said  in  the  next,  that  it  was  not  worth  one  mill  an  acre.  He 
was  astonished  at  the  language  of  the  resolution;  he  had  not  come  to  the  Conven- 
tion to  take  away  the  Right  of  Suffrage  from  any  who  possessed  it,  but  to  extend  it, 
though  in  a  very  limited  degree.  He  should  vote  to  strike  out  the  proviso,  so  far  as 
taxes  went  as  a  rule  for  extending  the  Riglat  of  Suffrage  :  a  small  amount  of  tax  was 
not  the  best  evidence  of  an  interest  in  the  community,  or  of  attachment  to  it.  A 
mechanic,  born  and  raised  in  Virginia,  would  scorn  to  go  to  the  mountains  to  buy  the 
Right  of  Suffrage.  A  father  having  four  or  five  sons,  while  he  gave  each  of  them 
a  plantation,  would  keep  the  title  in  his  own  hands.  Many  of  the  most  respectable 
farmers  in  Virginia,  resided  on  land  that  was  not  yet  theirs,  but  which  tliey  expected 
to  get  a  title  for.  He  would  limit  the  Right  of  Suffrage  to  ail  who  now  possessed  it, 
and  to  such  heads  of  families  and  house-keepers  as  had  had  a  sufficient  residence, 
from  which  to  infer  their  attachment  to  the  State.  He  considered  residence,  as  much 
better  proof  of  such  attachment  than  the  possession  of  property. 

Here  he  would  stop.  He  would  cover  all  who  lived  on  rented  land,  all  mechanics 
and  mercantile  men  who  lived  in  rented  houses,  and  there  he  would  stop.  He  should 
vote  to  strike  out  the  proviso. 


348 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  Leigh  rose,  simply  to  state  the  reason  why  he  should  not  vote  to  strike  out  the 
proviso.  It  was  meant,  only  to  get  rid  of  the  objection  he  had  stated,  and  to  render 
the  first  pi'ovision  of  the  resolution  consistent  with  the  last.  To  the  last  he  was  rea- 
dy to  accede.  He  had  never  yet  seen  a  freeholder  who  Avas  a  pauper,  nor  had  he 
ever  heard  that  such  a  freeholder  existed  in  Virginia,  until  he  heard  it  from  the  gen- 
tleman from  Loudoun.  But  he  had  seen  many  house-keepers,  and  heads  of  families, 
who  owned  nothing  but  a  single  horse,  with  which  they  were  hauling  wood  that  be- 
longed to  other  people.  They  resided  by  courtesy  on  land  they  did  not  own,  and 
who  received  parish  aid.  He  remembered  about  thirty  or  forty  such,  who  lived  on 
both  sides  of  the  river.  For  his  part,  he  did  not  know  what  a  house-keeper  and 
head  of  a  family  was,  unless  it  was  a  man  who  lived  in  a  house  with  a  family.  He 
was  sorry  to  see  gentlemen  so  ready  to  place  all  persons  of  this  description  on  a  foot- 
ing with  the  freeholders. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  that  the  purpose  which  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania  wished 
to  accomplish,  could  not  be  attained.  Suppose  the  proviso  should  be  suffered  to  stand j 
and  the  blank  it  contained  should  be  filled  witli  one  dollar.  There  were  thousands 
of  such  freeholds  near  the  Kanawha  river — or  supposmg  the  blank  to  be  filled  with 
fifty  cents  for  fifty  acres.  The  Commissioner  would  enter  fifty  acres  in  his  book,  of 
the  average  value  of  four  cents.  There  would  be  no  security  against  fraud  in  such  a 
provision;  but,  if  fraud  was  so  strongly  to  be  apprehended,  the  Legislature  had  am- 
ple power  to  guard  against  it  in  any  manner  that  might  be  necessary. 

Mr.  Stanard  was  surprised,  that  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun  should  suppose,  that 
a  sworn  Commissioner  would  put  down  land  in  his  book  at  any  rate  the  owner  might 
desire.  Such  a  means  of  evading  the  law  did  not  apply  to  the  case.  The  persons 
who  appear  as  the  owners  of  freeholds,  were  often  but  the  transient  population  of  the 
day,  who  are  provided  with  a  freehold  for  the  occasion,  and  who  would  be  succeeded 
by  a  new  swarm,  whenever  the  sinister  purposes  of  a  canvasser  should  require  it. 
He  desired  to  enquire  of  the  gentleman  from  Kanawha  (Mr.  Summers)  whether  such 
practices  did  not  exist,  and  whether  the  known  facility,  with  which  votes  might  thus  be 
obtained,  had  not  in  practice,  throughout  a  large  extent  of  the  Western  country,  bro- 
ken down  all  limitations  to  the  Right  of  Sufirage  ?  And  such  being  the  case,  whether 
all  enquiry  into  the  right  of  a  voter  to  vote,  must  not  be  made  at  the  hazard  of  losing 
the  election.  He  hoped  the  proviso  would  remain,  and  that  the  blank  be  filled  with 
twenty-five  dollars.  He  would  take  the  minimum  of  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun. 
He  should  prefer  fifty  dollars  but  would  be  content  with  twenty-five. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  that  it  was  painful  to  him  to  be  obliged  again  to  trouble  the  Com- 
mittee, but  when  a  gentleman  questioned  the  facts  he  stated,  it  was  necessary  for  him 
to  protect  himself.  None  could  change  the  value  at  which  land  was  assessed,  but 
this  was  only  law,  it  was  not  the  Constitution.  Every  owner  had  a  right  to  have  his 
land  assessed.  If  he  had  a  tract  worth  $20,000  and  should  sell  part  of  the  land,  he 
could  not  be  made  to  pay  on  the  residue,  an  average  of  the  whole.  Mr.  M,  insisted, 
that  a  man  who  bought  land  should  be  charged  with  a  tax  only  on  its  value.  If  he 
bought  a  freehold  of  twenty-five  acres,  and  should  pay  tax  at  the  rate  of  two  cents, 
that  would  cover  the  sum  in  the  blank. 

Mr.  Stanard  reminded  the  gentleman  that  the  assessment  was  made  by  a  sworn 
ofiicer. 

Mr.  Wilson  of  Monongalia  enquired  of  the  Chair,  whether  it  would  be  in  order  to 
oflTer  a  substitute  for  the  proviso. 

The  Chair  replied,  that  he  must  know  first  what  the  amendment  was,  and  then  he 
should  be  able  to  decide  whether  it  could  be  admitted  as  an  amendment  to  the  amend- 
ment now  pending. 

Mr.  Wilson  thereupon  read  his  resolution, 

"  Resolved,  That  every  free  white  male  citizen  of  this  Commonwealth,  of  the  age 
of  twenty-one  years,  and  upwards,  who  shall  have  resided  in  the  State  two  years, 
and  in  the  county  where  he  proposes  to  vote,  one  year,  next  preceding  the  time  of 
offering  such  vote ;  who  shall  have  been  enrolled  in  the  militia,  if  subject  to  military 
duty  ;  and  who  shall  have  paid  all  levies  and  taxes  assessed  upon  him,  or  his  property, 
for  the  year  preceding  that  in  which  he  offers  to  vote,  shall  have  a  right  to  vote  for 
members  of  the  General  Assembly :  Provided,  That  no  person  shall  be  permitted  to 
exercise  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  who  is  a  pauper;  who  is  of  unsound  mind;  who  has 
been  convicted  of  any  infamous  crime ;  or  who  is  engaged  in  the  land  or  naval  ser- 
vice of  the  United  States  ;  and  the  Legislature  shall  prescribe  the  mode  of  trying  and 
determining  disputes,  concerning  the  said  qualifications  of  voters,  whenever  the  right 
of  a  person  to  vote  shall  be  questioned." 

The  Chair  pronounced  the  resolution  to  be  in  order.  ~  ;  ' 

After  some  discussion  on  the  point  of  order, 

Mr.  Wilson  concluded  to  withdraw  his  amendment  for  the  present. 
Mr.  Summers  said,  the  reference  of  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania,  (Mr.  Stan- 
ard) required  from  him  some  explanation,  and  in  giving  it,  he  begged  to  be  permitted 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVEXTION. 


349 


to  remark,  that  he  was  not  disposed  to  make  v/ar  either  upon  the  small  or  the  large 
freeholder.'  He  not  only  wished  to  preserve  the  Right  of  Sulfrage  to  all  who  now  en- 
joy it,  but  to  extend  it  to  large  classes  who  are  now  deprived  of  this  important  right. 

The  imputation  of  frauds  upon  the  election  laws,  general  and  notorious  in  tlie  "SV  es- 
tern  district,  is,  he  imaofined,  the  result  of  misrepresentation  or  misapprehension. 
Called  upon'  by  tliis  charge  for  its  verification  or  denial,  he  had  subjected  his  memo- 
ry to  a  ricrid  scrutinv,  without  beincr  able  to  recollect  a  single  instance  of  a  fraud  of  this 
character,  within  his  own  observation.  He  tlien  appealed  to  the  rumors  of  the  coun- 
try, which  furnished  but  a  single  instance,  and  that  in  a  period  of  great  party  excite- 
ment, of  an  attempt  to  increase  the  number  of  electors  by  deeds  made  expressly  with 
that  view ;  the  extraordinary  number  of  the  grantees  gave  notoriety  to  the  attempt, 
and  may  have  induced  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania  to  suppose  that  such  occur- 
rences were  common.  ?sot  so.  Sir.  He  owed  it  to  that  quarter  of  the  State,  to  as- 
sure the  Committee,  from  information  entitled  to  his  full  confidence,  that  many,  very 
many  of  those  intended  to  be  made  voters  by  this  deed,  refused  to  exercise  the  right 
on  aground  so  objectionable;  aaid  that  the  commisioners  appointed  to  held  a  very  im- 
portant election  in  which  their  political  character  had  been  consulted  in  their  appoint- 
ment, resisting  all  party  consideration,  decided  with  great  firmness,  and  unanimity 
against  tliis  fraudulent  attempt  to  increase  the  freehold  list,  and  to  the  entire  satisfac- 
tion of  the  country. 

He  did  not  mean  to  be  understood  as  affirming  that  no  other  abuses  of  our  election 
laws  have  taken  place.  He  thouo-ht  it  probable  that  occurrences  of  this  sort  happen 
occasionall}^,  both  in  the  East  andln  the  West,  but  not  more  frequently  in  the  latter 
than  in  the  former. 

To  him,  the  limitation  of  tlie  freehold  right  by  the  value  of  the  land,  was  very  ob- 
jectionable. It  adds  to  the  misfortunes  which  are  inseparable  from  the  cultivation  of 
poor  land,  the  serious  evil  of  political  disfranchisement :  and  aggravates  the  misfor- 
tune in  no  slight  degree.  The  rniniimaa  value  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from 
Spottsylvania,  Tessens.  but  does  not  remove  the  objection — the  average  value  of  the 
land  of  the  Western  district,  by  the  assessment  of  1817,  is  ninety-two  cents  per  acre, 
and  to  require  a  freehold  of  twenty-five  dollars  value,  will  be  to  require  more  than 
twenty-five  acres  of  the  average  land  of  the  country,  to  constitute  a  voter.  His 
views  of  political  equality  and  justice  will  extend  the  same  rights  to  the  humblest 
cottage  of  the  mountain  side,  which  are  enjoyed  by  the  most  splendid  mansions  of  tlie 
wealthy.  Permanent  common  interest,  however  small,  oua-ht,  in  his  humble  judg- 
ment, to  be  invested  with  the  rights  of  protection,  and  placed  on  a  level  in  the  pohti- 
cal  institutions  of  the  country,  with  the  most  elevated  ranks  of  society. 

Mr.  M'Coy  said,  that  most  of  tliese  masses  of  unproductive  lands,  which  had  not 
paid  the  taxes,  were  forfeited  to  tlie  Literary  Fund,  and  thus  could  not  be  cut  up. 
He  went  into  hi%  own  views  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  stating  tliat  in  his  country 
there  were  a  great  many  lease-holders,  who  had  not  deeds  from  tiieir  fathers,  perhaps, 
and  who  ought  to  have  the  Right  of  Suffrage.  There  were  also  many  mechanics  who 
were  heads  of  families,  and  deserved  to  have  the  right.  He  said, lie  was  perfectly 
willing  to  give  the  Right  of  Suffrage  to  all  those  who  had  it  at  present,  and  to  heada 
of  families,  and  house-keepers.    This  wa^  his  idea  of  the  limitation  of  Suftrage. 

The  question  was  then  put  on  striking  out  tlie  prov.'so.  and  decided  in  the  affirma- 
tive.— Ayes  62. 

So  the  provision  which  went  to  restrict  the  right  of  freehold  election  to  freeholds 
of  a  certain  value,  to  be  fixed  in  the  Constitution,  was  stricken  out  of  the  resolution 
reported  by  the  Legislative  Committee. 

The  Committee  then  rose,  and  on  motion  of  Mr.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  tlie  Con- 
vention adjourned. 


WEDXESDAY,  November  IS,  1829. 

Tlie  Convention  met  at  10  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Taylor  of  the  Baptist  Church. 

Mr.  Massie  of  Nelson,  presented  the  following  memorial  from  the  citizens  of  tliat 
county,  which,  on  his  niotion,  was  referred  to  tiie  Committee  of  the  Whole  on  the 
Constitution : 

To  the  Convention  of  Virginia: 

Tour  memorialists  beg  leave  to  represent  to  your  honorable  body,  that  it  was  with 
deep  concern  they  received  the  intelligence,  that  a  proposition  to'make  a  change  in 
the  mode  of  appointing  Magistrates,  was  rejected  by  the  Judicial  Committee.  Your 


350 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION, 


memorialists  do  consider  the  present  mode  of  those  appointments  to  be  aristocratic  in 

its  features,  and  tending  to  the  estabhshment  of  a  privileged  order  in  this  Common- 
wealth :  that  a  body  should  be  established  in  this  Commonwealth,  with  self-creating 
powers,  appears  to  them  an  anomaly  of  most  alarming  tendency,  and  in  practice, 
well  calculated  to  dethrone  the  supremacy  of  the  people's  will.  It  must  be  known 
to  your  honorable  body,  as  it  is  known  to  your  memorialists,  that  the  present  mode  of 
appointing  those  officers,  is  well  calculated  to  place  the  Judicial  powers  of  the  coun- 
try, as  well  as  the  destinies  and  well-being  of  the  counties,  into  the  hands  of  a  few 
families.  It  is  known,  that  the  County  Courts  have  been  invested,  in  this  State, 
with  the  extraordinary  powers  of  appointing  militia  officers — of  supplying  vacancies 
in  their  own  body — of  the  appointment  of  overseers  of  the  poor — of  establishing  and 
changing  roads — of  levying  county  taxes  at  their  own  discretion — and  of  managing 
the  whole  county  police,  according  to  their. own  will  and  pleasure,  without  consulting 
the  supreme  will  of  the  people ;  their  powers  are  great,  and  often  improperly  exer- 
cised, because  the  Courts  are  in  no  way  responsible  to  the  people;  in  fact,  they  are 
a  power  without  responsibility.  Your  memorialists  have  thought  proper  to  make  this 
very  brief  statement,  in  order  to  call  the  attention  of  your  honorable  body,  particu- 
larly to  this  subject.  They,  therefore,  pray  that  some  mode  may  be  adopted  by  you, 
which  will  take  away  a  self-creating  power  from  the  County  Courts — and  they  will 
ever  pray,  &c. 

(  He7-e  folloio  the  signatures.  ) 

The  House  then  went  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  Powell  in  the  Chair : 

And  the  question  still  being  on  the  third  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee, 
(which  relates  to  the  Right  of  Suffrage — see  proceedings  of  yesterday,) 

Mr.  Wilson  of  Monongalia,  offered  the  following  amendment,  by  way  of  substitute 
for  that  of  the  Legislative  Committee : 

"  Resolved,  That  every  free  white  male  citizen  of  this  Commonwealth,  of  the  age 
of  twenty-one  years,  and  upwards,  who  shall  have  resided  in  this  State  two  years, 
and  in  the  county  where  he  proposes  to  vote,  one  year,  next  preceding  the  time  of 
offering  such  vote  ;  who  shall  have  been  enrolled  in  the  militia,  if  subject  to  military 
duty  ;  and  who  shall  have  paid  all  levies  and  taxes  assessed  upon  him,  or  his  property, 
for  tlie  year  preceding  that  in  which  he  offers  to  vote,  shall  have  a  right  to  vote  for 
members  of  the  General  Assembly  :  Provided,  That  no  person  shall  be  permitted  to 
exercise  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  who  is  a  pauper;  who  is  of  unsound  mind;  who  has 
been  convicted  of  any  infamous  crime ;  or  who  is  engaged  in  the  land  or  naval  ser- 
vice of  the  United  States ;  and  the  Legislature  shall  prescribe  the  mode  of  trying 
and  determining  disputes,  concerning  the  said  qualifications  of  voters,  whenever  the 
right  of  a  person  to  vote  shall  be  questioned." 

Mr.  Wilson  addressed  the  Committee  as  follows  : 

Mr.  Chairman, — As  there  can  be  no  difference  of  opinion  about  the  propriety  of 
ray  presenting  at  this  time,  the  resolution  which  I  offered  yesterday,  but  subsequently 
withdrew,  I  now  submit  to  the  consideration  of  the  Committee  the  following  sub- 
stitute for  the  third  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  (  Here  Mr.  W.  read 
his  proposed  resolution  on  the  subject  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  which  being  reported 
by  the  Chair,  he  resumed,  in  substance,  as  follows  :) 

It  must  be  evident.  Sir,  from  the  various  objections  which  on  yesterday  came  from 
every  quarter,  to  the  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  that  it  meets  the  views 
of  a  very  small  portion  of  the  members  of  this  Convention.  I  have,  therefore, 
thought  it  proper  to  rid  the  Committee  at  once,  of  the  labour  and  trouble  of  innume- 
rable amendments  and  modifications  of  that  resolution,  by  placing  before  it  the  sub- 
ject of  the  Right  of  Suffrage  on  its  broadest  ground.  I  wish  to  march  boldly  up  to 
the  question  and  meet  it  at  once,  and  present  it  in  such  a  shape  that  there  will  be  no 
room  for  the  imputation  of  ambiguity  or  insincerity.  The  substitute  I  propose  is 
short,  plain,  simple,  and  easy  to  be  understood.  This  proposition,  at  least,  is  not  lia- 
ble to  the  imputation  uttered  yesterday  by  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte,  (Mr.  Ran- 
dolph,) of  being  "  a  snake  in  the  grass." 

The  scheme  here  proposed  for  the  regulation  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  is  not  open 
to  the  objection  raised  yesterday,  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  (Mr.  Leigh,) 
to  the  resolution  of  tlie  Legislative  Committee.  It  does  not  exclude  from  the  polls 
the  owners  of  small  freeholds,  whilst  it  admits  the  payer  of  a  four  cent  horse-tax, 
who,  although  he  might  even  be  a  lease-holder  under  one  of  those  small  freeholds, 
yet  would  be  entitled  to  a  vote,  whilst  his  landlord  is  excluded.  The  substitute 
includes  both  these  classes.  Nor  is  it  open  to  the  objection  of  the  gentleman  from 
Charlotte,  (Mr.  Randolph.)  It  aims  no  fatal  blow  at  the  rights  of  the  freeholders, 
for  it  includes  them  all.  Nor  is  it  liable  to  the  objections  raised  by  the  gentleman 
from  SpoUsylvania,  (Mr.  Stanard,)  yesterday,  against  the  resolution  for  which  it  is 
intended  to  be  a  substitute.  He  dwelt  strongly  and  truly  on  the  difficulties  attend- 
ing any  attempt  to  estimate  the  value  of  a  man's  property  per  annum,  for  the  pur- 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


351 


pose  of  measuring  his  right  to  vote.  The  plan  now  proposed,  looks  not  to  property 
as  the  test  of  a  man's  attachment  to  the  community,  and,  therefore,  avoids  the  diffi- 
culties which  must  ever  attend  any  scheme  of  property  qualification.  It  seems  to  be 
admitted,  that  the  arbitrary  limitation  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage  to  the  ownership  of 
any  fixed  number  of  acres  of  land,  is  absurd  and  unjust,  because  of  the  inequality  of 
the  value  of  land.  It  is,  therefore,  proposed,  that  the  property  of  the  citizen,  either 
real  or  personal,  or  both,  shall  be  valued,  and  his  right  to  vote  be  tested  by  that  value. 
This  scheme  would  indeed  be  liable  to  great  objection,  arising  out  of  the  difficulty  of 
carrying  it  into  execution,  and  the  fraud  or  negligence  of  the  valuers. 

Two  qualifications  seemed  to  be  required  by  the  sixth  section  of  the  Bill  of  Rights, 
in  every  person,  before  he  shall  be  entitled  to  the  Right  of  Sufirage.  And,  notwith- 
standing the  lacerations  which  this  venerable  instrument  has  undergone,  in  the  course 
of  our  past  debates,  I  still  feel  disposed  to  take  my  text  from  it,  whenever  I  am  about 
to  discourse  upon  political  subjects,  and  matters  of  Government. 

The  first  qualification  required  by  that  instrument  is,  that  the  man  shall  furnish 
sufficient  evidence  of  permanent,  common  interest  with  the  community — and  se- 
condly, that  he  shall  furnish  sufficient  evidence  of  attachment  to  the  community. 
In  other  words,  we  should  be  convinced  that  his  interests  and  his  affections,  bind  him 
to  us,  before  we  admit  him  to  any  share  in  the  government  of  our  State.  The  ques- 
tion then  arises,  by  what  means  can  we  ascertain  where  his  interests  and  attachments 
are  centred  What  test  shall  we  apply  What  requisites  shall  we  demand,  without 
which,  the  man  shall  be  excluded  from  the  exercise  of  tiiis,  the  most  honorable  and  . 
precious  of  his  natural  rights.?  And,  here.  Sir,  permit  me  to  observe,  that,  notwith- 
standing all  the  ridicule  which  has  been  cast  upon  the  natural  rights  of  man,  by  cer- 
tain gentlemen  ;  notwithstanding  the  repeated  denial  of  their  existence,  except  in 
the  brains  of  moon-struck  reformers,  I  still  bejieve.that  Nature,  or  Nature's  God  rather, 
has  conferred  certain  original  rights  upon  man  ;  and  among  these,  none  appears  to  me 
more  clear  and  undeniable,  than  the  right  of  appointing  our  own  agents.  And  this 
right  may  exist  apart  fi'om,  and  anterior  to,  any  regular,  social  compact.  The  fact  of 
my  having  authorised  a  certain  individual  to  transact  a  piece  of  business  for  me,  does 
not  necessarily  imply  any  social  compact  with  him,  or  any  other  individual  of  mj 
race.  But,  although  this  right  of  appointing  our  agents  exists  in  man  by  nature,  yet^ 
when  he  enters  into  society,  that  right  becomes  limited,  and  ought  to  be  controuled^ 
by  a  due  regard  to  the  interests  of  that  society,  or  if  the  gentlemen  please — by  exj>e- 
diency.  Private  and  individual  conveniency  must  yield  to  the  good  of  the  whole. 
We  must  give  up  a  portion  of  our  natural  liberty,  in  order  to  enjoy  the  advantages  ^ 
of  social  union,  and  be  secured  in  the  undisturbed  enjoyment  of  those  rights  which 
are  not  surrendered,  and  which  the  necessity  of  the  case  does  not  require  us  to  sur- 
render. 

But,  Sir,  tliis  surrender  should  not  be  required  to  an  extent  greater  than  is  ne- 
cessary and  expedient  for  the  good  of  the  whole  community.  If  you  require  the 
citizen  to  yield  up  to  the  Government  a  larger  portion  of  his  natural  independence 
and  free  agency,  than  is  necessary  for  the  security  of  the  communit}^  at  large,  and  its 
members,  in  particular,  then,  Sir,  you  take  from  him  that,  for  which  you  render  him 
no  equivalent.  The  moment  you  say  to  the  citizen,  yield  to  the  Government  more 
of  your  natural  liberty  than  is  requisite  for  the  security  of  the  community,  you  pass 
out  of  the  field  of  freedom,  and  enter  upon  the  domains  of  tyranny.  This,  I  con- 
ceive, to  be  the  true  rule.  And  the  application  of  it  will  produce  very  different 
results,  according  to  the  virtue,  intelligence,  and  patriotism  of  the  people,  to  whom  it 
is  applied.  When  applied  to  the  corrupt  and  ignorant  Italian,  the  result  will  be  ab- 
solute moi\archy.  When  applied  to  the  more  virtuous  and  enlightened  inhabitants  of 
England,  the  result  will  be,  a  limited  monarchy.  When  applied  to  the  intelligent, 
virtuous  and  patriotic  people  of  Virginia,  the  result  will  be  a  free  representative  Re- 
public, wherein  the  administrators  of  public  affairs  are  the  agents  of  the  people,  and 
chosen  by  those  of  the  people,  who  have,  or  are  supposed  to  have,  a  free  will,  a  ma- 
tured intellect,  and  an  interest  in,  and  attachment  to,  the  community.  With  regard 
to  freedom  of  will,  and  maturity  of  intellect,  I  have  only  to  observe,  that  if  gentlemen 
do  not  already  perceive  the  propriety  of  excluding  women,  children,  paupers,  idiots^ 
and  slaves,  from  the  polls,  vain  will  "be  any  attempt,  on  my  part,  to  convince  them  of 
it.  The  beams  of  the  noon-day  sun  will  be  useless  to  him,  who  wilfull}^  shuts  his  eyes 
against  the  light. 

But,  I  recur  to  the  question,  what  is  the  proper  test  of  a  man's  interest  in,  and  at- 
tachment to,  the  community It  is  answered,  that  property,  and  especially  landed 
property,  is  the  only  true  and  safe  test.  To  this  I  cannot  assent.  It  assumes,  that  a 
man  cannot  love  a  countrj^  or  take  an  interest  in  its  good  government,  unless  he 
owns  a  portion  of  its  soil.  It  is  not  my  intention  here,  to  enter  into  a  detailed  history 
of  the  rise  and  progress  of  the  freehold  Right  of  Sufirage.  That  duty  has  been  ably 
and  eloquently  performed  by  my  friend  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Cooke.)    He  has  shown^ 


852 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


that  it  originated  in  despotism.  It  is  my  business  to  show,  that  it  is  absurd  and  unjust 
in  its  nature. 

It  is  said,  that  Ihe  possession  of  property  is  the  only  test.  Now,  Sir,  if  the  security 
of  property  were  the  only  object  of  Government,  there  might  be  some  truth  in  this 
assertion.  But,  when  we  know,  that  the  object  of  all  good  Government,  is  to  protect 
the  citizen  in  the  enjoyment,  not  only  of  his  property,  but  also  of  his  life,  his  personal 
liberty,  liis  limbs,  Ins  character,  the  freedom  of  speech  and  action,  and  the  pursuit  of 
happiness;  and  that  these  are  all  objects  of  equal,  and  some  of  them,  of  higher  im- 
portance than  property,  w^e  see,  at  once,  the  fallacy  of  the  test.  In  all  these,  the  rich 
and  the  poor,  stand  on  a  level — they  are  all  equally  valuable  to  both — or,  rather,  the 
poor  are  more  interested  in  the  security  of  these  rights,  because  the  enjoyment  of 
them  furnishes  to  the  poor  man  his  only  defence,  against  the  overweening  influence 
and  power,  which  wealth  confers  upon  the  rich,  and  which  we  know,  are  too  often 
tyrannically  exercised.  Besides  this,  however  poor  a  man  may  be,  unless  he  be  an 
absolute  paviper,  (and  paupers  are  excluded.)  he  yet  possesses  sorne  property;  and, 
Sir,  the  poor  man's  pittance  is  just  as  dear  to  him,  as  the  rich  man's  treasure,  because 
it  is  his  all;  aye,  and  more  dear  to  him,  because  it  is  but  a  pittance,' and,  therefore, 
more  liable  to  be  exhausted.  Supposing,  therefore,  that  the  rich  and  the  poor  have 
equal  virtue,  (and  this  I  imagine  will  not  be  denied.)  the  poor  man  must,  and  does  take 
as  great  an  interest  in  the  good  government  of  the  country,  as  the  rich  man. 

The  truth  is,  that  permanent  residence  is  the  best  evidence  of  attachment  to  the 
community,  and  an  interest  in  its  welfare.  The  value  of  land  is  too  fluctuating,  and 
its  tenure  too  uncertain,  to  furnish  this  evidence.  It  may  be  said,  that  if  a  man  loses 
his  land,  and  it  passes  into  other  hands,  that  other  persons  will  possess  this  evidence, 
and  will  be  entitled  to  the  vote,  and  so  on  through  every  mutation  of  property;  but 
from  this  it  would  seem,  that  tlie  Right  of  Suffrage  is  in  the  land,  and  not  in  the 
people  !  Suppose  a  virtuous  and  intelligent  man  to-day  possessed  of  a  farm  upon 
which  he  resides  with  his  wife  and  children,  surrounded  by  a  large  circle  of  beloved 
friends  and  relatives.  Every  body  will  say,  he  is  entitled  to  the  Right  of  Suffrage. 
Well,  suppose  that  by  one  of  those  sudden  reverses  of  fortune,  which  in  the  un- 
certainty of  human  affairs,  are  continually  occurring,  he  should  be  deprived  of  his 
farm  the  next  day  ;  is  he  to  be  deprived  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage  He  is  yet  virtu- 
ous, intelligent,  patriotic — he  has  yet  in  this  State  his  residence,  his  family,  his  friends, 
his  all  that  is  lett  him.  Do  you  suppose  that  his  attachment  to  his  native  State,  and 
his  interest  in  its  welfare,  is  less  now  than  before  ?  Certainly  not.  Being  now  de- 
prived of  tlie  all-commanding  influence  of  wealth,  he  is  still  more  concerned  in  the 
procurement  of  equal  and  just  laws,  by  which  he,  and  all  that  is  near  and  dear  to 
liira,  shall  be  protected  from  oppression. 

Do  you  measure  a  man's  right  to  vote  by  the  vahic  of  his  landed  property  How 
uncertain  and  unjust  a  test  will  this  also  be,  of  a  man's  attachment  and  interest  1 
Will  you  say  that  he  shall  own  real  estate  of  the  value  of  twenty-five  dollars,  as  was 
suggested  by  one  gentleman  ?  Surely,  we  all  know  that  a  piece  of  land  which  this 
year  may  be  worth  twenty-five  dollars,  may,  by  some  of  those  causes  which  are  pro- 
ducing continual  changes  in  the  value  of  land  and  its  produce,  be  next  year  reduced 
far  below  that  value.  And  yet  you  will  next  year  deprive  the  owner  of  his  vote,  al- 
though he  owns  precisely  the  same  land,  which  this  year  conferred  upon  him  the 
Right  of  Suffi-age.  If  you  don't  do  this,  you  abandon  your  principle  of  regulating 
the  elective  fra'iichise  according  to  the  value  of  a  man's  landed  property.  And  if 
you  do  this,  a  man  may  always  hold  the  same  tract  of  land ;  the  same  portion  of  the 
soil,  and  yet  have,  or  not  have  the  right  to  vote  according  to  the  variations  of  the 
price  of  his  land  and  its  produce  ! 

Upon  your  own  principles.  Sir,  this  standard  is  unjust.  You  propose  to  measure  a 
man's  right  to  vote,  by  the  value  of  his  land,  and  in  the  same  breath  you  give  to  a 
man  owning  twenty-five  dollars  worth  of  land,  one  vote,  and  to  the  man  owning 
twenty-five  thousand  dollars  worth  of  land,  ?io  7»ore  than  one  vote !  Is  this  just  on 
your  own  plan  But,  it  may  be  replied,  that  though  the  disparity  of  fortune  is  great, 
yet  the  interest  is  the  same  ;  tliat  though  there  is  not  an  equality  of  interest,  yet  each 
has  an  interest  in  the  welfare  of  the  State.  If  this  be  so,  then  you  do  not  nieasure  a 
man's  right  to  vote  by  the  quantum  of  his  interest ;  the  existence  of  an  interest  is 
sufficient.  Agreed  then— he  who  has  no  property  in  the  State,  but  resides  here,  has 
his  family  here,  and  is  here  pursuing  some  business  to  procure  a  livelihood,  is  interested 
in  the  good  government  of  the  community.  A  man  may  own  twenty-five  dollars  worth 
of  property  in  this  State,  and  yet  care  little  or  nothing  about  its  general  interests. 
Yet,  a  man  who  has  not  property  valued  at  twenty-five  dollars,  but  who  has  all  his 
relatives,  friends,  and  associates  in  the  country — all  his  affections  concentrated  in  its 
welfare,  would  be  deprived  of  his  vote,  and  it  would  be  given  to  the  other,  who  hap- 
pens to  own  as  much  property  as  amounts  to  twenty-five  dollars  in  value.  Such  is 
the  result  of  your  real  property  qualification. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


353 


If  we  advert  to  moveable  property  as  the  basis  of  the  Right  of  Siiffrage,  it  vnll  be 
evident  at  first  sight,  that  the  same  objections  apply  to  it  vrith  accumulated  force  ;  for 
vre  all  knovr,  that  personal  property  is.  if  possible,  more  uncertain  in  its  tenure,  and 
subject  to  greater  and  more  frequent  mutations  in  its  value,  than  landed  estate.  In 
fact,  whenever  you  attempt  to  prescribe  such  a  standard,  you  will  always  find  it  im- 
perfect. I  admit  that  no  perfect  rule  can  be  prescribed  on  the  subject :  but  I  confess, 
I  think  that  general  rule  too  imperfect  for  practical  apphcation,  the  exceptions  to 
which,  are  more  nmnerous  than  the  cases  which  it  includes.  There  can  be  no  perfect 
standard  :  but  I  think  at  the  saine  time,  that  there  can  be  none  found  more  worthy  of 
adoption,  than  residence,  bearing  arms,  and  paying  taxes.  The  possession  of  pro- 
perty furnishes  not  an  exclusiverbut  a  probable  evidence  of  attachment  to  the  com- 
munity; and  my  proposition  includes  all  the  possessors  of  property  who  reside  here, 
and  I  presume,  gentlemen  do  not  intend,  to  permit  non-residents  to  vote,  because 
they  may  own  a  tract  of  land  here.  But,  some  period  of  residence  must  be  fixed. 
It  will  not  do  to  let  every  bird  of  passacfe  that  fiits  through  our  State,  enjoy  the  Right 
of  Suffi-ao^e.  What  shall  that  term  of  residence  be  .'  Gentlemen  may  differ  in  opin- 
ion on  this  subject ;  but  it  appears  to  me,  that  a  residence  in  the  State,  of  two  years 
duration,  does  fiirnish  sufficient  evidence  of  a  man's  present  intention  to  continue  a 
resident  of  tlie  State,  so  far  as  outward  acts  can  fiirnish  such  evidence.  If  gentle- 
men think  this  too  short  a  period,  let  tliem  amend  tlie  resolution  by  mserting  tiiree, 
or  four  or  five  years  residence,  or  any  other  term,  provided  they  do  not  consume  too 
much  of  the  man's  fife  in  ascertainino'  his  intention  to  spend  his  life  amongst  us  ;.  and 
thus  deprive  him  of  tlie  right  of  voting,  during  a  considerable  portion  of  his  earthly 
existence,  in  order  to  ascertain  that  he  ■vvill  exercise  that  right  wisely,  during  the  rem- 
nant of  his  mortal  career.  All  I  think  necessary  in  this  case,  is,  "that  we  should  be 
satisfied  of  his  present  intention  to  reside  with  us,  that  he  has  cast  in  his  lot  with  us  ; 
and  for  this,  I  deem  two  years  residence  in  the  State,  and  one  in  the  county,  suffi- 
cient. When  you  have  a  man's  person  here,  you  will,  in  general,  have  Ins  property 
also  :  and  this,  together  with  every  thing  dear  to  him,  will  bind  him  to  the  country, 
and  deeply  interest  hhn  in  its  welfare.  Let  me  put  a  case,  Mr.  Chairman,  by  way  of 
illustration.  Suppose  two  men  embarked  on  board  a  ship,  the  one.carrying  with  him 
merchandize  to  the  value  of  ten  thousand  dollars,  and  the  otlier  goes  aboard  with 
nothing  but  his  wearing  apparel.  They  launch  into  tlie  ocean.  Storms  soon  succeed 
to  fair  weather.  The  billows  threaten  to  swallow  up  the  ship  with  its  cargoes  and 
crew.  I  ask  you,  Sir,  whether  the  poor  man  in  this  hour  of  peril,  will  not  feel  him- 
self as  much  interested  in  the  preservation  of  the  ship,  as  the  rich  merchant.  It  is 
true,  he  has  not  the  same  pecuniary  interest  at  stake,  but  Ins  life,  and  his  present  all, 
is  at  stake ;  and  he  wiU  enter  into  every  scheme  and  make  every  exertion  for  the  sal- 
vation of  the  ship  and  its  contents,  with  as  much  ardour,  energy,  and  passion,  as  the 
owner  of  thousands.  How  is  it  possible,  that  the  interest  of  Ihe  poor  sailor  in  such 
case,  can  be  less  than  that  of  the  wealthy  trader .'  The  one  has  his  all  embarked — the 
other  has  no  more. 

It  seems  to  be  ofenerally  admitted,  Sir,  that  men  are  as  much  influenced  by  hope 
and  expectation,  as  by  actual  fiirdtion.  Anticipation  is  said,  and  perhaps  truh-.  to  be 
superior  to  enjoyment.  If  so,  the  man  who  comes  into  this  State  poor,  but  with  the 
hope  and  expectation,  that  by  the  pursuit  of  some  profession  or  avocation,  learned  or 
unlearned,  he  shall  support  his  family,  and  acquire  a  fortune  ;.  while  engaged  in  this 
pursuit,  he  has,  in  my  opinion,  an  attachment  to.  and  an  interest  in  this  community, 
which  should  entitle  him  to  the  Right  of  Sufirage.  Although  he  has  no  property, 
yet  he  expects  to  gain  it.  He  would,  therefore,  have  a  strong  motive  to  promote  the 
good  government  of  the  State  ;.  and  this  arisinar  from  an  interest,  and  an  attacliment, 
as  strong  as  that  of  the  owner  of  property.  He  would  be  anxious  to  have  a  protec- 
tion for  whatever  property  he  might  acquire  ;.  and  this  he  would  know,  he  could  only 
have,  under  a  good  government  and  equal  laws. 

But,  Mr.  Chairman,  not  only  does  the  present  limitation  of  the  Right  of  Suffi-age 
prevent  the  increase  of  population  by  migration  fi-om  other  States,  but  it  drives  fi-om 
the  bosom  of  the  Ancient  Dominion,  many  of  her  most  valuable  sons.  It  may  not 
be  known  to  the  gentlemen  of  the  East,  but  it  is  a  fact  well  known  to  those  fi-om  the 
Western  part  of  tliis  State,  that  many  valuable  citizens  have  lefi:  their  native  State, 
and  availing  themselves  of  the  facihty  of  emigration,  presented  by  that  great  river 
which  washes  the  greater  part  of  our  Western  border,  have  departed  to  those  splendid 
regions  of  the  West,  where,  in  addition  to  the  exuberant  fertility  of  the  soil,  and 
other  physical  advantages,  they  can  enjoy  the  rights  of  fireemen.  Yes,  Sir,  your 
Government  banishes  vast  numbers  of  our  young  rnen  to  the  Western  States,  where 
this  odious  restriction  does  not  exist.  Those  States,  in  general,  require  little  more 
than  residence,  as  evidence  of  attacliment  and  interest,  so  as  to  entitle  persons  to  the 
Right  of  Sufirage.  The  consequence  is,  that  many  of  our  citizens,  virtuous,  intelli- 
gent, industrious  men.  forego  all  their  attachments  to  their  native  soU.  their  house, 
and  the  scenes  of  their  vouthiul  sports,  and  pass  awav  into  some  of  those  Western 

45 


354 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


States,  where  tliey  can  enjoy  the  privileges  appertaining  to  freemen,  by  right  of  na- 
ture, not  by  purchase.  Although  a  freehold  may  be  cheaply  bought,  they  disdain  to 
purchase  that  which  is  of  right  their  own. 

Sir,  there  is  a  continual,  and  an  exterminating  w^arfare,  carried  on  throughout  this 
wide  extended  Commonwealth.  She  bleeds  at  every  pore.  And  who  are  the  par- 
ties to  this  desolating  war It  is  the  Government  against  the  people.  A  most  un- 
natural war  !  Every  member  of  the  community  driven  out  from  us,  by  the  opera- 
tion of  an  unjust  Constitution,  is  as  much  lost  to  us,  as  if  the  bayonet  or  cannon  ball, 
had  done  its  work  upon  him.  Yes,  Sir,  it  is  a  cruel  and  exterminating  war.  I  speak 
of  Western  Virginia,  when  I  say,  that  if  the  State  were  called  upon  to  furnish  annu- 
ally her  quota  of  troops  to  aid  the  General  Government  in  resisting  the  attack  of  all 
Europe  combined,  it  would  not  consume  our  strength,  nor  retard  our  population  more, 
than  do  the  restrictions  imposed  by  her  laws  upon  the  Pught  of  Suffrage,  Many  a 
soldier  goes  to  the  battle-field  and  returns  again  to  his  honie  with  its  comforts  and 
endearments:  but  the  voluntary  exile  ;  he,  who  is  compelled  for  conscience  sake,  to 
rend  asunder  all  the  ties  which  bind  him  to  his  native  country,  and  like  the  pilgrim 
fathers  of  New-England,  seek  hberty  in  a  distant  land,  never  returns.  Sir,  I  have 
known  respectable,  intelligent,  virtuous  men  ;  men  who  had  been  honoured  with  seats 
on  the  benches  of  our  County  Courts ;  to  whom  their  fellow-citizens  cheerfully  con- 
fided the  protection  of  their  rights  of  property,  and  their  personal  rights,  who  were 
regarded  as  the  efficient  guardians  of  the  public  peace  and  welfare ;  I  have  known 
such.  Sir,  prohibited  by  your  laws  from  exercising  the  Right  of  Suffrage.  Is  there 
not  something  wrong  in  all  this.''  I  have  seen  the  respectable  young  men  of  the 
country — the  mechanic,  the  merchant,  the  farmer,  of  mature  age,  of  intelligence  su- 
perior to  that  of  one  half  the  freeholders,  and  glowing  with  a  patriotism  which  would 
make  them  laugh  at  death  in  defence  of  their  country  :  I  have  seen  such  commanded 
to  stand  back  from  the  polls,  to  give  way  to  the  ow^ner  of  a  petty  freehold,  who  presses 
forward,  oaying  to  him  in  effect,  Away  !  I  am  holier  than  thou — this  is  sacred 
ground,  upon  which  you  have  no  right  to  tread."  Ought  such  things  to  be Is  it 
for  the  good  of  our  country  that  such  things  should  be  ?    Surely  not. 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  shall  not  extend  my  remarks  any  farther.  It  was  not  my  inten- 
tion to  enter  into  a  detailed  enumeration  of  all  the  evils  of  the  present  system  of 
Suffrage,  or  of  the  advantages  of  that  which  I  have  now  the  honour  to  submit  to  the 
Committee.  My  present  remarks  were  only  intended  to  call  the  attention  of  the 
Committee  to  the  plan  I  have  proposed.  It  is  a  broad  one  I  admit.  I  submit  this 
project  to  gentlemen,  as  a  base  upon  which  they  may  build  their  schemes  of  Suffrage. 
It  is  open  to  amendment,  and  I  have  no  doubt,  requires  amendment.  Such  as  it  is, 
I  submit  my  substitute  to  your  consideration. 

Mr.  Henderson  of  Loudoun,  moved  to  amend  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Wilson,  by 
striking  out  the  words  "  who  is  engaged  in  the  land  or  naval  service  of  the  United 
States,"  and  inserting  in  lieu  thereof  the  following  :  "  Who  shall  be  a  non-commis- 
sioned officer  or  private  soldier,  seaman  or  marine  in  the  regular  service  of  the  United 
States,  or  of  this  Commonwealth."  And  stated  his  reason  for  it  to  be,  that  he  did  not 
wish  to  exclude  gallant  officers,  such  as  Thomas  ap  Catesby  Jones  in  the  naval,  or 
Roger  Jones  in  the  land  service,  (both  from  his  own  district,)  from  the  Right  of  Suf- 
frage ;  nor  would  he  exclude  the  subalterns,  and  soldiers,  &c.  could  he  believe  them 
capable  of  an  independent  exercise  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage. 

In  reply  to  an  enquiry  of  Mr.  Claytor,  Mr.  Henderson  said  it  was  his  intention  to 
include  the  militia  as  well  when  in  as  out  of  actual  service. 

Mr.  Wilson  having  accepted  this  amendment  as  a  modification  of  his  own, 

Mr.  Henderson  addressed  the  Committee  in  support  of  the  substitute  of  Mr.  Wil- 
son as  amended.  Pie  expressed  the  gratification  he  had  felt  on  account  of  the  manner 
in  which  the  interesting  question,  recently  under  the  consideration  of  the  Committee, 
had  been  debated  by  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  (Mr.  Upshur,)  and  the  gen- 
tleman from  Hanover,  (Mr.  Morris.)  He  remarked,  that  he  felt  pride  in  making  the 
tribute  of  his  acknowledgments  to  these  gentlemen,  distinguished  alike  for  their 
ability  and  eloquence,  and  for  their  courteous  treatment  of  those  who,  with  himself, 
differed  from  them  in  opinion.  He  intimated  an  earnest  wish,  that  the  same  temper 
might  mark  the  debate  about  to  obtain  upon  the  great  subject  now  before  the  body. 

Mr.  H.  said,  before  I  proceed,  Mr.  Chairman,  to  trouble  the  Committee  upon  the 
merits  of  the  question  under  consideration,  I  will  briefly  advert  to  the  origin  and 
history  of  the  freehold  Suffrage  in  Virginia.  It  is  now.  Sir,  two  hundred  and  ten 
years  since  the  assemblage  of  the  first  House  of  Burgesses.  From  1619,  when  it 
met,  till  1677,  a  period  of  fifty-eight  years,  the  Suffrage,  with  the  exception  of  a  sin- 
gle year,  v/as  exercised  by  all  the  freemen  of  the  Colony.  During  the  excepted 
year,  it  was  limited  to  house-keepers.  In  the  year  1677,  after  the  death  of  the  gallant 
Bacon,  the  freehold  Suffrage  was  first  introduced,  not  by  any  Act  of  the  Legislature, 
of  the  English  Parliament,  or  of  the  people  of  either  country.  It  was  the  offspring 
of  regal  interposition  entirely,  as  has  been  most  aptly  and  forcibly  shown  by  my 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


355 


friend  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Cooke.)  Yes,  Sir,  said  Mr.  H,  it  was  the  precious  fruit 
of  despotism.  Charles  11.  one  of  the  most  odious  and  profligate  tyrants  who  ever 
wielded  the  British  sceptre,  transmitted  to  Sir  William  Berkeley,  then  Governor  of 
the  Colony,  an  instruction,  signed  by  his  own  royal  hand,  commanding  him  to  permit 
none  except  freeholders,  to  exercise  this  inestimable  privilege.  It  is  curious  to  ob- 
serve the  refined  spirit  of  tyranny  which  reigns  throughout  this  document.  It  com- 
mands Sir  William  not  to  permit  the  House  of  Burgesses  to  meet  more  than  once  in 
two  years;  to  limit  its  sessions  to /oMrteeTi  t^ffT/^,  and  to  reduce  the  moderate  recom-  " 
pence  for  their  services,  which  the  freemen  of  the  Colony  had  cheerfully  accorded  to 
their  representatives.  It  is  obvious.  Sir,  that  the  policy  and  aim  of  this  disgusting 
edict  was  to  dishearten  the  people ;  to  degrade  their  agents ;  to  make  a  mockery  of 
their  legislation.  A  fortnight  for  the  whole  business  of  a  new  and  rising  Colony, 
by  agents  who  were  to  be  humbled  by  subsisting  upon  '■^  low  and  coarse  diet!'''  I 
ask,  Mr.  Chairman,  if,  in  the  face  of  these  striking  and  graphic  facts,  gentlemen  can 
cover  with  the  hoary  mantle  of  antiquity,  the  monopoly  which  I  assail  ^  If  an  abuse 
founded  in  a  flagitious  and  scornful  disregard  of  all  decency  and  right,  and  fastened,  at 
the  point  of  the  bayonet,  upon  an  indignant  people,  can  challenge  to  itself  the  favour- 
able notice  of  the  freemen  of  Vii-ginia,  in  the  nineteeth  century.?  Having  thus, 
continued  Mr.  H.  stripped  the  argument  of  our  opponents  of  the  interest  which  it 
claims  from  the  pretended  revolutionary  origin  of  this  usurpation,  I  respectfully  invite 
the  Committee  to  follow  me  in  the  imperfect  effort  which  I  shall  make  to  discuss  it 
on  its  merits.  I  lay  down  these  principles  as  applicable  to  the  subject.  I  deem  them 
clear  as  day ;  postulates  in  the  science  of  politics  :  First,  that  all  the  men  of  a  society 
are  entitled  to  a  voice  in  framing  its  organic  law  ;  secondly,  that  a  majority  of  these 
men  has  an  undoubted  right  to  decide  what  that  law  shall  be ;  thirdly,  that  as  a 
corollary  from  the  second  proposition,  this  majority  has  a  legitimate  authority  to  pre- 
scribe icho  shall  exercise  the  Right  of  Suffrage  in  the  ordinary  legislation  of  the  society  ; 
and,  fourthly,  that  to  withhold  tJie  exercise  of  this  right  from  any  man  in  the  society, 
except  where  it  is  necessary  for  the  common  good,  is  unjust  and  tyrannical.  I  do  not 
think,  said  Mr.  H.  that  the  truth  of  these  principles,  or  either  of  them,  will  be  denied 
in  the  United  States,  save  only  in  Virginia.  Let  us  proceed  to  apply  them  to  the 
subject  of  the  present  debate.  I  assume,  that  there  are  in  the  State  of  Virginia 
100,000  men  having  attained  the  age  of  twenty-one  j^ears,  either  natives  of  the  State, 
or  having  resided  therein  for  a  reasonable  time,  and  who  are  willing  to  pay,  rateably 
with  their  fellow-citizens,  its  taxes  in  peace,  and  to  fight,  by  their  sides,  in  war. 
The  real  number  is  no  doubt  greater.  I  assume  it  for  convenience.  I  farther  assume, 
that,  of  the  100,000,  40,000  are  freeholders,  and  60,000  non-freeholders.  This  expo- 
sition of  the  subject  shows  at  once  its  importance.  Yes,  Sir,  on  the  one  hand,  you 
have  the  political  power the  political  life  and  death  of  three-fifths  of  the  freemen  of 
the  Common  wealth ;  on  the  other,  the  crd?r  and  stability  of  the  Commonwealth 
itself.  I  am  deeply  sensible  of  my  inabilit}^  to  do  justice  to  such  a  theme.  But,  im- 
pelled by  a  sense  of  duty  to  my  constituents,  whose  memorial  I  have  had  the  honor  -  . 
to  present,  and  by  a  sacred  regard  to  the  great  principles  involved  in  the  issues  of 
our  deliberations,  I  will  endeavor  to  prove  that  neither  the  lights  of  history,  the 
results  of  comparison,  nor  the  inductions  of  reason,  demand,  at  our  hands,  the  trC' 
mendous  sacrifices  which  gentlemen  desire  us  to  make. 

The  history  of  ancient  times,  Sir,  continued  Mr.  H.  will  give  us  very  little  aid  in 
the  development  of  this  subject,  as  has  been  justly  observed  by  my  venerable  col- 
league, (Mr.  Monroe.)  No  gentlemxan  will  point  us  to  any  nation  of  antiquity  except 
the  Grecian  and  Roman  Republics.  There  man  attained  to  greater  excellence  in  arts, 
in  Hterature,  and  in  arms,  than  under  institutions  less  free.  Greece,  the  mention  of 
whose  name  awakens  so  many  classic  associations,  and  the  memory  of  whose  recent 
woes  makes  the  heart  bleed  with  sympathy,  can  aflbrd  us  no  material  aid.  The  sub- 
tile, but  versatile  Athenian,  eagerly  catching  the  strains  of  that  eloquence,  the  charm 
of  succeeding  ages,  and  deciding  by  acclamation,  in  -proper  perso7i,  great  questions  of 
public  concern,  is  no  example  for  us.  Rome  laid  the  foundations  of  her  power  in 
violence,  and  completed  it  by  incessant  war.  Her  victorious  Generals,  laden  with 
the  spoils  of  conquered  nations,  and  dragging  at  their  chariot- wheels  the  Kings  of 
the  earth,  aflbrd  a  poor  illustration  of  the  principles  of  representative  Government, 
And  the  American  turns  with  disgust,  from  a  half-civilized  people,  who  sported  in 
the  groans  of  the  gladiator  weltering  in  his  blood,  wliile  he  bent  his  sinking  eye 
towards  his  native  hills. 

The  able  and  eloquent  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  (Mr.  Leigh.)  referred  us  the 
other  day,  in  the  discussion  of  a  kindred  topic,  to  France  and  England.  We  were 
counselled  by  that  gentleman,  to  take  warning  from  the  French  Revolution  ;  and  the 
Government  of  England  was  extolled  as  resting  on  liberty  and  law.  Law,  Sir,  is  to 
be  found  every  where.  No  country  in  Europe  exhibits  the  disgraceful  picture  of 
property  insecure.  The  spirit  of  the  age  forbids  it.  The  revolutionary  horrors  of 
France  were  set  before  us  in  bold  relief ;  and  we  are  earnestly  premonished  not  to  act 


356 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


them  over  again.  Let  us  follow  out  this  parallel.  The  Kings,  Nobles  and  Priests  of 
France,  for  a  succession  of  ages,  governed  the  people  by  an  oppression  so  intolerable, 
that  they  rose  at  length,  in  their  strength,  and  shook  off  their  detested  tyrants  as  the 
lion  does  the  dew-drops  from  his  mane.  Grief  and  rage,  drove  them  to  excesses 
revolting  to  humanity.  Now,  Sir,  what  is  this  but  social  confusion  and  misery,  pro- 
duced by  the  injustice  and  cruelty  of  the  aristocrats  of  France Had  they  been 
just  and  moderate,  these  horrors  would  never  have  occurred.  We  seek  to  confer 
upon  the  body  of  the  people  their  rights ;  and  we  are  gravely,  and  most  pathetically 
urged  not  to  do  it,  because  the  tyranny  of  the  fcio  in  France,  and  the  suffering  of 
the  many  led  to  social  convulsion.  That  is,  as  I  take  it,  opposite  causes,  produce  like 
effects ;  or  do  not  relieve  the  people  of  Virginia,  because  the  oppression  of  those  of 
France  led  to  blood-shed.  To  this  logic,  I  cannot  subscribe.  And,  after  all,  what  is 
now  the  situation  of  that  beautiful  country  ^  A  representation  of  the  people ;  the 
establishment  of  the  trial  by  jury ;  a  free  press,  and  a  vastly  more  equal  division  of 
property,  proclaim  that  with  great  temporary  evil,  much  lasting  good  has  flowed  from 
the  revolution.  The  Jesuit  no  longer  tramples  on  the  man.  Happy  change  for  this 
gallant  people  !  Let  not  the  brilliant  and  ravishing  description  which  Burke  gives  us 
of  the  unfortunate  Marie  Antoinette,  beguile  us  into  the  belief  that  any  argument 
against  our  principles  can  be  founded  on  the  story  of  her  sorrows,  or  of  those  of  her 
country.  For  England,  said  Mr.  H.  I  have  great  respect.  She  is  crowned  with  too 
much  glory  not  to  awaken  our  admiration ;  and  has  too  much  in  common  with  us, 
not  to  attract  our  sympathies.  But  is  England,  in  truth,  a  land  of  liberty.''  Are  the 
people  happy  ?  Is  her  Government  a  fit  model  for  our  imitation  Do  not  those  who 
wield  the  power  of  the  country,  the  jjrivileged  fetv,  lavish  its  resources  with  wanton 
prodigality,  vx^hile  about  two  millions  of  the  people  are  on  the  poor  lists,  and  as  many 
more,  on  the  confines  of  pauperism,  eke  out  a  bare  subsistence  by  a  degree  of  toil 
which  makes  life  itself  a  burden  ?  A  single  ecclesiastical  character  in  Ireland  receives 
annually,  and  chiefly,  too,  from  those  who  differ  with  him  in  religious  behef,  more 
than  five  times  as  much  as  the  salary  of  the  President  of  the  United  States,  while 
hundreds  of  thousands  of  the  people  are  huddled,  like  beasts,  into  mud-huts,  half 
naked,  and  subsisting  on  potatoes,  often,  too  often,  scantily  supplied !  A  man  dares 
not  in  England,  unless  he  is  worth  £100  a  year,  shoot  a  hare  on  his  own  land.  Yet 
England,  renowned  and  dreaded,  has  power  beyond  any  nation  over  which  the  sun 
holds  his  course  ;  a  glory  which  Princes  and  Potentates  may  envy.  But  this  power 
belongs  to  the  few ;  this  glory  is  the  property  of  her  leaders ;  and  she  owes  a  debt  of 
four  thousand  five  hundred  millions  of  dollars.  From  such  a  union  of  wretched- 
ness and  splendour,  of  injustice  and  oppression,  Heaven  preserve  the  land  of  my 
nativity  ! 

Let  us,  said  Mr.  H.  turn  our  eyes  towards  our  own  country.  Of  the  twenty-four 
States  that  form  our  Federal  Family,  Virginia  alone  has  the  freehold  Suffrage  through- 
out. In  North  Carolina,  freeholders  alone  vote  for  Senators ;  but,  as  if  to  atone  for 
this  political  sin,  she  permits  free  negroes  to  vote  for  members  of  the  "  House  of 
Commons."  In  New-York,  also,  there  is  a  singular  anomaly ;  for  the  free  negro 
there,  is  the  only  man  of  whom  the  freehold  qualification  is  required.  Every  other 
citizen,  without  pecuniary  qualification,  is  allowed  to  exercise  this  privilege,  so  dear 
to  freemen.  The  effect  is,  that,  of  twenty-four  States  spread  over  the  wide  bosom  of 
our  happy  country,  Virginia,  and  Virginia  alone,  jJ^'oscribes  and  brands,  with  utter 
political  opprohrium,  the  far  greater  part  of  her  sons.  In  Massachusetts,  New-Jersey' 
and  Connecticut,  a  moderate  pecuniary  qualification  is  demanded;  and  in  South 
Carolina,  a  tax  of  three  shillings  is  required.  In  the  other  nineteen  States,  no  pecu- 
niary qualification  is  established,  although  some  two-thirds  of  them  impose  as  a  pre- 
requisite to  the  exercise  of  Suffrage,  the  payment  of  such  taxes  as  may  be  assessed. 
I  appeal  to  the  members  of  this  Committee  ;  to  the  American  world,  if  property  is 
not  as  safe,  and  social  order  as  effectually  sustained,  in  the  other  States  in  this  Union, 
as  in  Virginia  ?  Look  to  South  Carolina,  to  Louisiana,  every  where  around  you. 
Ask  Ohio,  the  daughter  of  yesterday,  now  an  empire  in  herself,  if  property  is  safe 
within  her  confines  ?  If  social  order  be  not  inviolate  ?  Her  population,  I  mean, 
Mr.  Chairman,  her  white  population,  is  now  greater  than  that  of  the  renowned  and 
once  pouierful  Commonwealth  of  Virginia. 

After  all.  Sir,  what  is  required  of  the  voter  Simply  the  capacity  and  the 'will  to 
choose  good  public  agents.  The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  before  alluded  to,  in 
treating  by  anticipation,  the  question  now  under  debate,  denied  that  men  who  labored 
were  able  to  perform  this  duty;  and  intimated,  that  even  he,  acute  and  accomplished 
as  he  is,  was  so  engrossed  with  professional  pursuits,  as  not  to  leave  him  leisure  for 
the  study  of  political  science.  Surely  the  same  remark  would  apply  to  the  other 
classes  of  society;  for,  by  the  fiat  of  an  overruling  Providence,  we  are  doomed  to  earn 
our  bread  by  toiling  in  our  several  vocations.  Shall  we  cast  the  Government,  then, 
into  the  hands  of  the  idle  and  worthless  Heaven  forbid  !  But,  it  does  not  require, 
in  order  to  the  proper  exercise  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  that  the  citizen  be  a  master 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


357 


of  political  science.  Were  it  otherwise,  how  many  voters  would  you  have  ?  Sir,  the 
^'-peasantri/'  are  competent  to  the  performance  of  this  duty.  All  who  know  men,  and 
are  versed  in  their  concerns,  in  the  various  walks  of  life,  are  aware  that  individuals 
of  limited  education,  observe  character,  with  eyes  at  once  steady  and  clear;  unen- 
grossed  by  books,  wide  awake  to  the  world  around  them,  they  acquire  and  digest  that 
every-day  knowledge,  that  prevailing  and  discriminating  common  sense,  which  ena- 
ble them  to  select  their  public  functionaries  with  judgment.  Sir,  we  have  a  very 
pretty  antithetical  line  written  by  a  sweet  poet  who  was  a  very  lazy  fellow,  Those 
who  think,  must  govern  those  who  toil Nothing  is  so  apt  to  delude  a  man  and  ex- 
pose him  to  error  in  politics  as  poetry  and  metaphor.  They  lead  him  to  make  sense 
yield  to  sound,  principles  to  flourishes  of  rhetoric.  There  lived  in  the  last  age  ano- 
ther poet,  and  he  will  live  for  countless  ages  to  come.  He  invigorated  his  under- 
standing, and  sharpened  his  perceptions  by  labor.  You  will  recognize,  in  tliis 
description,  the  low-born  but  high-souled  and  enchanting  Burns.  He  was  a  flax- 
breaker.  His  contemporary  and  acquaintance,  Alexander  Wilson,  to  whom  the  re- 
public of  science  owes  so  much  for  his  inimitable  work  on  ornithology,  was  a.pe/2sant 
too.  Yes,  Sir,  I  myself  have  seen  Horn,  a  weaver  by  day,  a  poet  at  night.  Benja- 
min Franklin  too,  was  of  the  peasant  class.  He  labored  hard  for  his  daily  bread. 
Gentlemen  abhor  abstractions.  Let  them  learn,  then,  from  those  illustrious  peasants 
this  practiml  truth,  that  moderate  labor  inspires  sound  sense.  I  ask  the  Committee  to 
test  the  correctness  of  my  position,  by  inquiring  how  the  non-freeholders  in  our  sis- 
ter States  have  chosen  their  representatives  in  the  Federal  Congress,  as  compared 
with  the  wiser  freeholders  of  our  native  State?  Lowndes  of  Soutli  Carolina,  James 
Lloyd  of  Massachusetts,  Rufus  King  of  New  York,  William  Pinckney  of  Maryland, 
cum  multis  aliis,  were,  or  are  the  peers  of  the  first  talents  that  Virginia  has  sent  forth. 
And  now,  Sir,  are  not  W^ebster  and  M'Duffie,  and  Berrien,  without  naming  others, 
additional  living  examples  of  the  truth  of  my  proposition  ?  Such  facts  speak  volumes. 
It  were  a  most  ungracious  consumption  of  the  valuable  time  of  this  enlicfhtened  and 
honorable  body,  to  attempt,  by  any  enlarged  scope  of  argument,  to  prove  that  a  man 
loves  his  birth-place  as  he  does  his  mother,  with  an  ardor  that  no  time  can  efface,  no 
circumstance  extinguish.  Sacred  love  of  country,  ineffable  attachment  to  the  natal 
spot,  art  thou  the  offspring  of  a  churlish  interest;  or  can  gold  purchase  thee  ?  Sir, 
the  landless  peasant  clings  to  the  rocky  cliffs  on  whose  smnmit  he  sported  in  the  hal- 
cyon days  of  his  boyhood,  as  the  ligaments  of  his  own  heart  bind  it  to  his  bosMn. 
Away,  then,  with  the  idea  of  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania,  (Mr.  Stanard)  that  a 
twenty-five  dollar  freeholder,  a  whole  Commonwealth  of  whom  Stephen  Girard 
could  create  without  impairing  materially  his  resources,  has  a  stronger,  a  more  ele- 
vated, or  more  enduring  attachment  to  his  country,  than  the  man  I  have  faintly  at- 
tempted to  describe. 

But,  continued  Mr.  H.  gentlemen  have  denied  the  propriety  of  permitting  a  man 
without  property  to  vote  equally  with  the  rich  man,  because  the  latter  brings  mto  the 
common  stock  his  fortune,  as  well  as  all  that  class  of  rights  strictly  denominated  per- 
sonal. In  the  first  place,  how  is  this  position  to  be  reconciled  with  the  concession, 
that  a  man  who  has  $25  in  land  shall  vote  ?  If  one  man  have  $  100,000  and  another 
^25,  the  ratio  is  so  very  inconsiderable  as  to  withdraw  from  the  argument  of  my  op- 
ponents the  greater  part  of  its  force.  Examine  this  branch  of  the  subject  in  its  true 
lights.  A  man  without  property  stakes  his  liberty,  his  life,  his  reputation,  his  happi- 
ness, and  his  right  to  acquire  property.  W^hile  we  surround  property  with  so  many 
fences,  and  guard  it  with  so  much  solicitude,  shall  we  not  duly  appreciate  the  rio-ht 
to  acquire  it.^  Shall  we  not,  in  the  emphatic  language  of  Napoleon,  preserve  for  it 
"  the  open  theatre.?"  Again,  if  the  rich  man  brings  in  his  property,  does  he  not  cre- 
ate the  necessity  of  an  expensive  Government.''  It  is  mainly  for  his  property  that 
law  is  piled  upon  law  in  your  Statute  book,  and  that  the  onerous  labors  of  your  judici- 
ary are  demanded.  He,  too,  engrosses  the  honors  and  emoluments  incident  to  the 
operations  of  Government.  It  is  rarely  that  you  incur  expense  in  making  or  admin- 
istering law  for  the  citizen  without  property,  and  still  more  rarely  doeslie  share  in 
those  distinguished  and  interesting  functions.  How  stands  the  account  in  war?  Are 
wars  waged  for  the  interest  of  the  poor  ?  Do  their  passions  prompt  or  their  posses- 
sions invite  them?  No,  Sir.  The  ambition  of  the  great  men  of  Rome  raised  her 
armies  to  invade  Britain  ;  after  over-running  the  fairest  portion  of  the  Island,  they  re- 
tm'ned  to  enjoy  their  spoil,  leaving  the  highlands  unconquered.  The  poor  and  hardy 
Caledonians  boasted  that  their  gallantry  had  rolled  back  the  tide  of  battle  ;  but  Gibbon 
says  more  truly,  that  the  proud  Eagle  of  Rome  scorned  to  perch  on  the  naked  hills 
of  the  land  of  the  mountain  and  the  flood:"  Sir,  the  cottager  is  always  the  instru- 
ment and  oflen  the  victim  of  war,  but  he  is  never  its  author,  and  seldom  shares  its 
glory.  Let  not  wealth,  then,  complain  that  it  is  taxed  for  its  own  interest,  and  its 
own  protection  and  honor.  But,  Sir,  property,  as  has  been  well  said,  has  influence. 
It  confers  knowledge,  and  gives  facihty  for  improving  the  virtues  of  the  heart  and  the 


358 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


graces  of  the  manner.  This  is  power,  concentrated,  legitimate,  resistless  power,  ever 
has  been,  and  will  continue  to  be,  till  time  shall  be  no  more. 

Gentlemen  intimate,  that  the  enlarged  and  liberal  Suffrage  will  engender  tumult  at 
elections,  and  impart  to  the  populace,  habits  of  dissipation.  Have  you  not  now  mirth 
and  irregularity  and  riot  at  your  elections  ?  What  real  evil  springs  from  this  source 
The  gentry  drink  wine  and  the  lower  classes  alcohol.  This  is  a  subject  of  regret,  but 
not  an  adequate  cause  for  disfranchising  the  one  or  the  other.  A  celebrated  man  in 
England,  remarked  that  it  was  better  the  Nobleman's  coaches  should  be  bespattered 
by  the  mob  than  that  the  people  should  be  made  slaves.  And  it  is  better  that  culti- 
vated taste  be  offended  here,  than  that  three-fifths  of  the  body  politic  be  powerless. 
For  these  transient  inconveniences,  a  perfect  remedy  may  be  found  in  the  creation 
of  moderate  election  districts. 

Mr.  Chairman,  we  have  one  small,  but  conspicuous  example  of  the  correctness  of 
the  doctrine  which  I  have  the  honor  to  maintain,  in  Virginia  itself;  and  gentlemen, 
justly  tenacious  of  the  character  of  our  ancient  Commonwealth,  ought  to  weigh  it. 
The  borough  of  Norfolk  is  entitled,  as  we  all  know,  to  a  delegate  in  the  lower  House 
of  our  Legislature.  In  that  borough,  jjot-boilers  and  mechanics ,  who  have  served  an 
apprenticeship,  are  invested  with  the  Right  of  Suffrage.  How,  Sir,  have  they  exer- 
cised it.''  Look  at  their  representation  on  this  floor.  One  of  those  who  exemplified 
their  political  fitness,  in  war  the  defence,  in  peace  the  ornament  of  the  State,  is  here 
no  longer.  It  is.  Sir,  an  indisputable  fact,  that  the  borough  of  JYorfolk  has  been  re- 
presented in  the  Legislature,  with  an  ability  and  patriotism  which  do  honor  to  the 
city  itself,  while  it  is  a  living  and  constant  proof  of  the  capacity  of  the  non-freehol- 
ders of  Norfolk.  And  are  not  the  non-freeholders  of  the  county  of  Frederick  as  com- 
petent as  they  are  ?  Is  there  any  thing  in  the  air  of  a  city  which  gives  light  and  pu- 
rity to  its  populace,  when  citizens  of  corresponding  grade  throughout  your  wide  con- 
fines are  involved  in  darkness  or  steeped  in  impurity  ?  We  have  been  taught  to 
believe  that  the  multitude  in  cities  was  more  depraved  and  more  liable  to  political 
delusion  than  that  dispersed  over  the  surface  of  the  country.  Allowing  them  to  be 
no  worse  than  their  fellovz-citizens  of  Norfolk,  time,  the  best  instructor,  establishes 
their  claim.  It  is  vain  to  contend  that  we  are  happy,  and,  therefore,  that  no  amend- 
ment would  be  proper.  Suppose  the  State  were  governed  by  an  absolute  monarchy, 
whose  character  was  as  benign  as  that  of  a  Trajan  or  Antonine,  and  who  made  them 
happy  for  the  time,  would  not  the  citizens  assert  their  political  rights  as  the  sole  secu- 
rity for  the  continuance  of  Iheir  civil  immunities  ?  Would  they  be  content  to  hold 
their  comfort,  and  peace,  and  all  that  is  dear  to  man,  upon  courtesy.^  If  not,  ought 
the  vast  mass  of  citizens,  the  subject  of  our  present  debate,  to  remain  content,  be- 
cause not  actually  oypressed?  Ought  they  not  to  be  placed  in  a  predicament  which 
would  enable  them  to  guard  themselves  from  possible  oppression  ?  But,  Sir,  I  res- 
pectfully insist  that  the  non-freeholders  of  Virginia  have  been  politically  wronged,  and 
that  they  are  so  now.  Permit  me,  since  we  are  boldly  called  upon  to  point  out  a 
solitary  instance  of  misrule,  to  name  a  few,  simply  by  way  of  example.  Some  of 
them  will  demonstrate  the  injustice  done  to  those  who  do  not  vote;  all  of  them  mani- 
fest the  unsound  policy  of  the  representatives  of  those  who  do. 

This  is  an  invidious  task.  I  enter  upon  it  with  no  feelings  other  than  those  of  re- 
gret and  pain.  Professions  are  of  little  use.  I  will  proceed  with  the  argument.  In 
Hening's  Statutes  at  Large,  vol.  6,  page  439,  and  in  the  same  book,  page  532,  maybe 
found  two  Acts  of  Legislation,  which  will  serve  to  exemplify,  in  a  lively  manner,  the 
idea  which  I  advance.  I  will  notice,  briefly,  the  last.  It  provides,  that  all  the  people 
of  the  country  shall  perform  the  arduous  and  perilous  military  duties  incident  to  their 
circumstances,  except  certain  official  dignitaries,  and  owners  of  four  slaves.  The 
official  characters  were  compelled  to  furnish  arms  and  equipments  as  a  substitute  for 
their  personal  services ;  but  the  overseer  of  the  opulent  man  was  neither  compelled 
to  fight  nor  to  pay.  By  the  Act  of  1754,  to  be  found,  page  438,  two  justices  might 
cause  to  be  seized  any  man  not  having  a  calling  or  support,  except  voters  or  servants 
indented  or  bought,  have  him  dragged  before  them,  and  finally  decide  to  consign  him 
or  not  to  all  the  hazards  and  sufferings  of  war.  If  this  was  right  in  the  general,  why 
except  voters,  or,  in  other  words,  freeholders?  Why  except  servants,  the  jjroperty  of 
these  freeholders?  Can  any  man  believe  so  gross  a  discrimination  would  have  been 
made,  if  these  freeholders  had  not  held  all  the  power,  and  the  remainder  of  society- 
been  a  proscribed  caste.?  This  example  is  not  the  less  apt  or  illustrative,  because  it 
occurred  under  the  Colonial  Government. 

Is  not  every  gentleman  somewhat  struck  with  the  fact,  that  the  long  denial  of  jus- 
tice to  thousands  of  citizens,  is  itself  evidence  of  misrule  ? 

The  manner  of  working  the  roads  of  Virginia  is  little  short  of  the  odious  corve  of 
France.  If  a  man  has  two  slaves,  he  is  exempt  from  the  imposition,  while  his  poor 
neighbor,  with  all  his  sons,  is  liable  to  it.  Imagine  a  wealthy  man,  often  the  case  in 
the  county  where  I  reside,  to  have  a  large  crop  to  carry  to  market,  and  a  family  for 
whose  accommodation  good  roads  are  essential;  this  individual  has  six  negro  men; 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


359 


his  poor  neighbor  lias  six  sons,  who,  together  with  theu-  father,  earn  their  daily  bread 
bv  their  dailv  labor.  This  man.  with  his  six  sons,  is  obhged  to  work  upon  the  roads 
along  side  of  the  six  slaves  of  his  wealthy  neighbor.  The  poor  man,  in  the  interim, 
never  uses  the  road. 

The  entire  county  and  parish  levies  are  raised  by  a  poll  or  capitation  tax.  In  the 
county  where  I  reside,  this  charge,  for  the  four  years  next  succeeding  the  last  Cen- 
sus, was  ?<  12.000.  more  than  our  whole  contribution  to  the  revenue  of  the  State 
itself 

If  a  poor  man  owes  1-5  or  820,  his  creditor  may,  in  one  month,  sell  under  scire 
facias,  at  auction,  the  bed  on  which  his  sick  wife  lajiguishes,  and  the  cow  that  affords 
aliment  to  his  children.  ]N«othing  is  spared.  Until  within  a  few  years,  a  man  might 
own  larore  landed  estates,  or  valuable  stocks,  and  unless  he  had  personal  property,  his 
creditor" might,  seize  his  person,  and  the  law  interposed,  and,  imder  the  kindly  facili- 
ties of  the  prison  rules,  he  might  hve  like  a  nabob.  Even  now,  if  he  chooses  to  con- 
vert his  prison  into  a' drawing-room,  he  may  employ  his  income  in  riot  and  luxury. 
I  submit  it  to  tliis  Committee,  to  that  part  of  it,  at  least,  who  do  not  conclusively  as- 
simie  that  to  be  wise  which  has  existed  long,  if  these  examples  do  not  indicate  too 
forcibly  the  exceptionable  spirit  of  our  legislation.?  I  am  aware,  Sir.  that  I  am  now 
addressing  srentlemen  elected  by  freeholders.  I  appeal  to  their  candor  and  good 
sense,  and  through  them,  to  the  hberal  and  dispassionate  citizens  of  Virginia. 

Sir,  I  ask  if  the  state  of  the  Judiciary  of  the  country  is  not  a  reproach  to  the  Le- 
gislature .-  Truly,  we  add  the  ••law"s  delay""  to  the  ••'  proud  man"s  contumely.""  I  will 
not  enlarge  on  this  topic. 

What  Ts  the  general  condition  of  the  Commonwealtli .-  A  commerce  inferior  to 
that  of  the  little  State  of  Rhode  Island,  an  aoriculture  languishing,  the  mechanic  arts 
in  a  state  of  depression  and  thriftlessness,  and  provision  made  for  the  education  of 
about  one-eighth  of  the  children  annually  educated  by  the  small  State  of  Coimecti- 
cut.    Yes,  Sir.  and  they  Eire  not  half  so  weU  educated. 

As  for  the  development  of  the  natural  resources  of  the  State,  through  the  medium 
of  a  system  of  improvement,  the  very  mention  of  the  subject  is  calculated  to  inspire 
melancholy.  What,  Sir,  is  your  great  James  River  Canal .'  Between  one  and  two 
miliions  of  dollars  have  been  lavished  on  it,  in  the  course  of  forty  years — some  tlurty 
miles  are  cojhpleted  !  and  the  people  of  the  State,  provoked  with  this  gross  absurdity 
and  waste,  look  on  the  whole  enterprize  with  disgust. 

Rut,  if  there  be  a  Commonwealth  on  earth,  where  the  Right  of  SuSrage  is  fairly 
and  rationally  susceptible  of  a  most  liberal  enlargement,  it  is  that  of  Virginia.  Her 
people  are  habitually  steady  in  their  conduct ;  the  mass  of  them  ai'e  reflecting ;  and, 
libel  them  who  may,  every  man  who  really  knows  tlie  state  of  society,  and  is  willing 
to  be  just  to  it,  will  attest  the  truth  of  tlie  declaration,  that  morality  and  virtue  are 
growing  amono-st  us.  Who  is  not  struck  with  the  temperance  and  sobriety  of  the 
rising  generation,  compared  with  that  which  is  passing  away.-  Vice  and  crime,  I 
boldly  afiinn,  have,  within  ten  years,  rapidly  diminished:  individual  industry  and 
energy,  are  increasing.  Schools  are  multiplying,  and  religion  is  diffusing  its  genial 
influence  over  the  land.  Over  tliis  picture,  rudely  but  faitiifull}'  sketched.  I  reioice 
with  filial  joy ;  and  while  I  cheerfully  admit  the  virtue  and  sta'bihty  of  the  freehol- 
ders, tlie  middle  classes,  as  they  are  termed,  I  cannot  yield  my  judgment  to  tlie  dic- 
tum, which  confines  virtue  to  any  description  of  men.  The  gentleman  and  the  cot- 
tager too,  are  pure.  Yes,  Sir,  with  individual  exceptions,  all  deserve  to  share  in  the 
government  of  the  conimmiity,  that  rules  the  land  of  their  birth,  the  theatre  of  their 
joys  and  sorrows,  tliat  embosoms  the  ashes  of  their  fathers,  and  imites  tlie  hopes  of 
the  children  of  their  affections.  The  composition  and  circumstances  of  the  society 
themselves,  invite  to  the  infrancliisement  of  the  people.  No  large  or  populous  cities 
agitate  or  corrupt  us  ;  few  foreicrners  are  intermixed  with  us  ;  our  pursuits,  for  the 
most  part,  agricultural :  an  extensive  territory  sparsely  peopled ;  and  a  respect  for 
order,  for  the  character  of  the  Commonwealtli  itself,  animating  all  classes  of  citizens. 
Such  is  Virginia  :  such,  the  material  for  her  Statesmen  and  law-givers.  Are  we  to 
apprehend  rapine,  disorder,  disorganization,  from  a  paternal  and  generous  course.-* 
Besides,  more  than  three-fifths  of  the  inhabitants,  comprehendinof  far  the  crreater  part 
of  those  termed  in  European  countries  the  rabble,  are  slaves.  ^  Tliis  single  circum- 
stance, is  enough  to  quiet  all  the  apprehensions  of  gentlemen.  It  cannot  be  success- 
fully contended,  that  a  community,  thus  characterised  and  composed,  is  not  to  be 
trusted  to  govern  itself;  that  its  powers  must  be  confided  to  the  chosen  few.  From 
the  days  of  Homer,  to  this  day,  it  has  been  conceded,  that  to  enslave  a  man,  was  to 
impair  his  worth  ;  and,  that  to  clothe  him  with  the  privileges  appropriate  to  his  nature, 
elevated  his  sentiments;. 

If  it  were  questionable,  whether  the  reasoning  I  employ  were  just  originally,  still 
half  the'  force  of  the  conflicting  argument  is  taken  away  by  tlie  fact,  that  no  other 
State  in  the  Union  retains  the"  odious  distinction  which  I  combat.  If  the  freehold 
Sufirage  existed  in  the  other  Statesj  tlie  problem  would  exist  in  all  its  force  and  in- 


360 


DEBATES  OP  THE  CONVENTION. 


terest;  but,  when  it  is  abandoned  by  twenty-three  States,  to  retain  it  here,  were  in- 
sufferable. The  humble  citizen  of  Virginia  cannot  pass  the  confines  of  Maryland, 
Pennsylvania,  Ohio,  Kentucky,  or  Tennessee,  without  being  taunted  by  his  neigh- 
bours with  his  vassal  condition.  The  borderer  on  North  Carolina  beholds,  amidst  the 
most  perfect  social  order  and  security,  the  very  free  negro  exercising  that  privilege 
which  is  withheld  from  him.    This  is  galling  and  most  humiliating. 

Let  those  who  feel  solicitude,  and  who  does  not,  for  the  future  destiny  of  the  State, 
inspect,  with  a  Statesman's  eye,  its  diversified  population.  There  are  four  distinct 
classes — the  freeholder,  the  non-freeholder,  the  free  negro,  and  the  slave.  Pause, 
Mr.  Chairman,  and  examine  this  interesting  subject.  May  not  occasions  arise  when 
the  common  weal  will  loudly  call  for  the  united  exertions  of  your  white  population  ? 
A  large  part  of  them  have  already  poured  their  murmurs  into  your  ear.  Will  you 
deafen  it.?  I  adjure  you.  Sir,  I  adjure  this  Committee  to  bind  in  the  chords  of  com- 
mon affection,  the  whole  people,  and  to  treat  them  as  one  family. 

I  cannot  but  think,  tlmt  the  condition  of  the  world  is  greatly  improved  and  ra- 
pidly improving.  All  virtuous  men  venerate  their  progenitors.  But,  how  was  it 
possible,  in  ancient  times,  to  diffuse  through  society  the  knowledge  which  now  pre- 
vails ?  The  art  of  printing,  itself,  was  sufficient  to  change  the  face  of  the  world,  and 
it  is  certainly  changing  it.  The  mariner's  compass,  post-offices,  the  application  of 
steam  in  facilitating  intercourse  amongst  men,  and  in  the  mutual  transmission  of  in- 
formation, are,  with  a  steady  pace,  pressing  us  on  in  the  career  of  mind.  These, 
with  many  ancillary  causes,  are  exalting  and  meliorating  the  species.  Why  shall  we 
alone,  lag  and  faulter  in  the  generous  race  ?  Adopt  a  well-devised,  wise,  and  econo- 
mical system  of  education  for  all  classes,  and  all  will  be  capable  of  performing  the 
cardinal  duties  of  the  citizen,.will  be  worthy  to  become  depositories  of  political  power, 
and  all  will  love  with  filial  regard,  the  land  of  their  birth. 

After  all,  we  are  merely  commissioned  to  sketch,  for  the  adoption  or  rejection  of 
the  people,  the  plan  of  a  Constitution.  If  they  approve,  they  will  estabhsh  it ;  if,  on 
the  contrary,  they  disapprove,  they  will  reject  it — and  then  our  work  will  terminate. 
Why,  then,  do  gentlemen  attempt  to  alarm  us Why  this  cry  of  separation,  intes- 
tine war,  and  all  the  horrors  that  eloquence  can  paint,  or  ingenuity  conjure  up  ? 
Rather,  Sir,  let  us  be  calm,  and  endeavour  to  do  our  duty  in  a  spirit  of  conciliation 
and  harmony.  One  gentleman,  for  whom  I  entertain  great  esteem,  distinguished  by 
his  talents  and  virtues,  (Mr.  Nicholas,)  announced  to  us,  the  other  day,  that  we  were 
in  a  most  awful  situation,  that  clouds  and  darkness  hovered  over  us,  and  terrible  ca- 
lamities beset  our  path.  Permit  me  to  congratulate  that  amiable  gentleman  upon  the 
tranquil  and  serene  aspect,  which  he  exhibited  to  us  in  the  midst  of  the  storm  he 
raised  or  fancied.  I  had  the  pleasure  to  sit  near  him,  and  marvelled  at  the  placidity 
of  his  brow  in  a  scene  so  appalling.  Is  there,  Mr.  Chairman,  no  rhetoric  in  those 
horrors  The  same  gentleman  informed  us  that  he  had  held  an  official  station  under 
the  Government  for  some  twenty  years,  and  that  things  had  flowed  on  with  wonder- 
ful smoothness  during  the  whole  time.  That  may  be.  Sir,  so  far  as  the  gentleman  is 
concerned.  A  good  official  station  has  a  charming  effect  in  smoothing  the  asperities 
of  life,  and  imparting  brighter  tints  to  the  scenes  around  one.  But,  it  does  not  follow, 
from  all  this,  that  the  people  are  content  with  their  disfranchisement.  I  wish  the 
worthy  gentleman  a  long  continuance  of  the  advantages  he  has  so  richly  merited  j 
but  my  first  wish  is  for  my  country. 

Another  honourable  gentleman,  in  speaking  of  the  determination  of  the  minority 
to  retain  its  power,  was  pleased  to  hold  to  us  of  the  West,  for  it  seems  I  too  am  a 
Western  man,  the  language  which  Sparta  held  to  the  Persian  Monarch,  when  he  de- 
manded the  surrender  of  their  arms,  "  come  and  take  them."  Sir,  here  are  no  Spar- 
tans, no  Persians.  We  are  all  Virginians.  During  the  war  of  1812,  the  citizens  of 
Norfolk  talked  to  us  in  a  different  language.  They  then  said,  "  come  and  help  us." 
And  we  went;  and  ranging  ourselves  under  the  banner  of  his  gallant  townsman,  we 
bade  the  enemy  "come  and  take  the  city."  Aye,and  we  are  ready  to  repair  again  to 
his  succour.  In  fighting,  there  is  no  sectional  line,  no  exclusion.  Whenever  the 
standard  of  freedom  of  Virginia,  the  "  Star-Spangled  Banner"  is  unfurled,  in  the 
East  or  the  West,  the  North  or  the  South,  then  will  every  true-hearted  American  be 
found  to  face,  not  his  brothers,  but  the  foes  of  his  beloved  and  common  country.  Per- 
mit me,  Mr.  Chairman,  humble  as  I  am,  to  make  a  passing  effort  to  relieve  this  learn- 
ed gentleman  from  a  distressing  state  of  perplexity  into  which  he  has  fallen.  He 
seems  to  apprehend,  that  we  shall  not  be  able  to  discern  and  define  the  white  man, 
with  any  sort  of  distinctness,  and  that  the  people  of  China  and  of  the  South  Ameri- 
can Republics,  when  they  come  hither,  will  puzzle  our  modicum  of  physical  and  po- 
litical science  to  arrange  them.  This  is  a  most  embarrassing  question,  it  must  be  ad- 
mitted ;  but  if  the  learned  gentleman  will  concede  our  principle,  we  will  endeavour 
to  relieve  him  in  the  labour  of  its  application  ;  and  should  we  not  be  competent  to 
the  solution  of  this  matter  ourselves,  we  have  yet  a  resource  which  may  save  the  Re- 
public.   We  will  call  Dr.  Mitchell  into  consultation,  and  from  the  acumen  and  erudi- 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


361 


tion  which  he  displayed  upon  the  occurrence  of  a  similar  difficulty  in  the  celebrated  case 
of  the  Almshouse  vs.  Alexander  Whisteloe,  he  will  doubtless  prescribe  with  effect. 

Mr.  Chairman,  it  is  not  a  question  who  is  white ;  but  how  shall  the  wrongs  of  the 
people  be  redressed.  Sixty  thousand  men,  in  a  land  of  liberty,  ask  their  fellow-men  to 
admit  them  to  an  equal  participation  in  their  political  rights  :  they  ask  in  the  spirit  of 
brotherhood,  but,  in  the  unquailing  voice  of  conscious  rectitude  and  firmness.  Every 
where  around  them  they  see  those  who  have  the  same  claims  with  themselves,  and 
none  other,  standing  up  and  giving  assurance  that  they  are  men.  Shall  they,  they 
alone,  bear  the  stamp  of  political  villinage 

The  Committee  assenting,  the  resolution  respecting  the  Right  of  Suffrage  was,  for 
the  present,  laid  aside,  and 

Mr.  H.  having  resumed  his  seat,  Mr.  Pleasants  asked  as  a  favour  of  the  Committee, 
that  the  resolution  now  under  consideration  might  be  laid  aside  long  enough  to  afford 
him  an  opportunity  of  presenting  to  this  body  a  proposition  of  his  own,  which  he 
offered  as  the  basis  of  a  compromise. 

Mr,  Pleasants  then  offered  the  following  amendment  to  the  fourth  resolution  of  the 
Committee : 

The  original  resolution  reads, 

"  Resolved,  That  the  number  of  members  in  the  Senate  of  this  State  ought  to  be 
neither  increased  nor  diminished,  nor  the  classification  of  its  members  changed." 

The  amendment  proposes  to  strike  out  all  after  the  words  "  Resolved,  That"  and 
to  insert  as  follows  : 

 "  representation  in  the  Senate  shall  be  based  on  the  whole  number  of  free 

persons,  including  those  bound  to  service  for  a  term  of  years,  and  excluding  Indians 
not  taxed,  and  adding  to  the  aforesaid  number  of  free  persons,  three-fifths  of  all  other 
persons  ;  and  the  Senate  shall  consist  of  a  number  not  exceeding  ,  and  its  term 
of  service  and  classification  remain  as  at  present." 

In  supporting  the  amendment,  Mr.  Pleasants  spoke,  in  substance,  as  follows  : 

I  have  risen  to  make  the  motion  just  now  intimated  to  the  Committee — which 
motion,  I  had  hoped  some  other  member  would  have  made.  I  had  hoped  some  gen- 
tleman of  standing  in  this  body,  some  gentleman  of  standing  in  the  community,  and 
of  weight  of  character,  would  have  risen  to  make  some  such  motion ;  but  1  have 
been  so  far  disappointed.  I  will  then  present  the  proposition,  under  the  hope  that  it 
may  tend  to  bring  about  a  reconciliation,  and  lead  to  those  concessions,  which  are  so 
desirable,  and  which  many  gentlemen  think  absolutely  necessary  to  the  further  pro- 
gress of  our  proceedings. 

The  district  I  represent,  has  received  the  notice  of  several  gentlemen,  in  the 
course  of  this  debate.  It  is  what  I  fully  expected,  and  what  I  am  very  glad  to  see. 
The  respectable  and  intelligent  people  whom  I  represent,  (I  hope  I  shall  be  permitted 
to  term  them  so,  for  it  is  no  more  than  the  truth,)  have  put  themselves  in  that  point 
of  view  in  which  they  are  entitled  to  stand  before  this  body.  I  have  heard  it  fre- 
quently insinuated  here,  that  the  people  are  in  the  dark,  and  are  therefore  not  compe- 
tent to  decide  on  that  branch  of  the  subject  which  has  occupied  our  attention  so  long: 
that  they  want  more  light,  more  information,  and  that  they  ought  to  receive  it.  Sir,  this 
is  all  well :  the  people  will  receive  with  thankfulness,  all  the  information  which  may 
be  given  them.  But,  I  have  never  been  disappointed  in  the  expectation  that  they 
will  always  come  to  correct  conclusions  if  left  to  themselves,  and  not  misled  in  their 
judgment  by  some  who  have  more  influence  than  is  wholesome  for  this  Common- 
wealth. In  saying  this,  I  have  no  particular  reference  to  the  present  juncture,  nor  do 
I  point  the  remark  at  any  individuals.  I  have  given  the  most  profound  attention  to 
the  discussions  which  have  taken  place.  The  various  subjects  which  have  come  be- 
fore us  have  been  most  ably  handled.  The  best  talents  of  the  State,  talents  which  I 
have  often  witnessed  and  long  admired,  have  been  employed  upon  them.  The  coun- 
try has  been  illuminated,  and  I  have  myself  been  greatly  profited.  An  intense  inter- 
est has  been  excited  every  where,  but  my  district  has  not  changed  its  position  as  far 
as  I  am  informed.  The  majority  of  the  little  count}^  in  which  I  live,  has,  it  is  true, 
been  against  the  opinions  of  the  majority  of  the  district,  but  they  ho.ve  honoured  me 
with  a  seat  here.  It  is  an  honour  which  I  duly  appreciate,  and  a  proof  of  their  re- 
spect and  confidence  which  I  can  never  forget.  I  should  be  a  villain,  if  I  could  wipe 
the  remembrance  of  it  from  my  heart.  No,  Sir — it  will  be  there  when  I  die.  I  am 
more  singularly  situated,  not  only  as  it  regards  the  geographical  position  of  my  dis- 
trict, but  in  some  other  respects,  than  many  other  gentlemen.  I  did  not  go  through 
my  district,  nor  did  I  know  the  sense  of  the  people,  till  the  day  of  the  election.  I 
heard  that  my  name  had  been  mentioned  as  a  candidate,  and  I  hastened  to  promul- 
gate my  sentiments,  in  the  fullest  and  most  explicit  manner.  Give  me  leave  to  say, 
that  the  subject  was  fully  canvassed.  A  gentleman  who  is  particularly  conversant 
with  the  finances  of  the  Government,  and  who  is  very  thoroughly  acquainted  with 
all  matters  relating  to  it,  laboured  with  his  utmost  energy  to  produce  an  impression 

46 


362 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTIOPT. 


contrary  to  that  which  the  people  entertained,  but  without  success.  He  exerted  his 
utmost  ability,  but  his  efforts  did  not  succeed. 

Gentlemen  have  made  their  appeal  to  the  Albemarle  district,  and  to  its  position  in 
relation  to  this  question.  I  felt  the  fall  force  of  their  appeal,  and  had  I  thought  they 
were  wrong,  and  could  I  consent  to  violate  the  known  will  of  a  majority  of  my  dis- 
trict, I  would  have  yielded  to  that  appeal.  But  my  attachment  to  numbers,  and  to 
the  principle  that  the  majority  who  are  bound  to  fight  and  to  pay,  ought  to  have  the 
power  to  vote,  was  not  for  one  second  shaken.  I  concluded  the  appeal  to  be  in  part 
directed  to  myself,  from  what  an  honorable  member  from  Chesterfield  said,  in  relation 
to  a  certain  letter  which  he  had  seen.  My  disposition  was  to  do  all  1  could  for  the 
security  of  the  slave  property  in  consistency  with  my  view  on  the  great  principles  of 
Republican  Government.  The  district  I  represent,  is  deeply  interested  in  whatever 
touches  that  property,  as  it  probably  contains  as  many  slaves  in  proportion  to  its  ex- 
tent, as  any  other  portion  of  the  State.  And  I  should  be  the  very  worst  of  men,  if 
I  could  voluntarily  jeopardize  such  an  interest.  It  had  been  my  opinion,  that  some 
standard  for  taxation  might  be  taken  from  the  relative  value  of  land ;  and  that  the  one 
property  should  not  be  taxed  save  in  a  given  ratio  to  the  other  ;  but  on  this  point,  I 
have  found  myself  in  a  very  small  minority.  I  did  believe  that  the  thing  might  be 
made  practicable,  and  that  there  would  be  no  difliculty  in  stopping  the  violation  of 
the  Constitution,  instanter.  But,  as  the  project  was  disapproved  in  the  Legislative 
Committee,  I  do  not  know  that  I  shall  offer  it  here.  In  the  proposition  I  now 
advance,  I  am  convinced,  that  I  go  beyond  the  opinions  of  my  constituents,  as  it  was 
at  the  time  of  the  election.  But  what  is  to  be  done The  Convention  is  almost 
equally  divided.  Gentlemen  ask  us  whether  we  will  press  measures  with  so  small  a 
majority But,  Mr.  Chairman,  what  must  we  do  ?  Can  they  expect  us  to  desert 
our  own  principles,  and  to  fly  in  the  face  of  a  majority  of  our  constituents Must 
we  be  willing  to  yield  to  a  minority  ?  Sir,  such  an  expectation  cannot,  and  ought  not 
to  prevail.  The  venerable  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  (Mr.  Monroe,)  gave  us  most 
parental  and  conciliatory  counsel,  and  expressed  his  own  predilections  in  favour  of 
the  plan  embodied  in  my  amendment ;  but  he  did  not  follow  it  up  with  any  specific 
motion.  I  have  felt  it  my  duty  to  bring  the  plan  before  the  Committee.  I  have  done 
so  in  the  very  best  spirit,  and  with  a  strong  hope  of  effecting  the  compromise.  I  have 
proposed  the  Federal  number,  because  it  is  most  simple,  best  known,  and  the  most 
easily  reduced  to  practice.  But  if  gentlemen  prefer  introducing  in  the  Senate,  the 
principle  of  a  mixed  basis  of  representation,  I  am  perfectly  ready  to  modify  it  in  that 
way. 

Mr.  Nicholas  observed,  that  as  he  was  one  of  those  who  voted  for  affording  his 
highly  esteemed  friend  from  Gocchland  an  opportunity  to  offer  his  resolution,  he 
thought  it  proper  to  state,  that  he  was  influenced  in  giving  that  vote  by  a  spirit  of 
courtesy,  and  by  a  wish  to  gratify  that  gentleman.  But,  as  his  proposition  goes  ahead 
of  the  discussion,  and  refers  to  a  resolution  which  will  come  on  hereafter,  it  would  be 
improper  to  take  it  up  at  this  time.  There  were  considerations  connected  with 
the  proposition,  which  he  wished  to  weigh  in  his  own  mind ;  he,  therefore,  moved  that 
the  resolution  offered  by  the  gentleman  from  Goochland,  be  for  the  present  passed 
over. 

Mr.  Pleasants  seconded  the  motion,  and  stated  that,  as  his  resolution  was  closely 
connected  with  the  subject  of  the  basis  of  representation  before  the  Convention,  he 
deemed  it  proper  to  submit  it,  whilst  that  subject  was  undisposed  of.  He  hoped, 
therefore,  that  his  resolution  might  lie  on  the  table,  and  be  printed.  The  Chairman 
took  the  question  :  Shall  the  resolution  be  passed  over  for  the  present which  was 
carried. 

Mr.  Pleasants  then  moved  that  the  subject,  the  consideration  of  which  had  been 
suspended,  should  be  resumed  ;  which  was  carried. 

Mr.  Nicholas,  after  requesting  the  Chairman  to  report  the  amendment,  spoke,  in 
substance,  as  follows : 

My  sentiments,  Mr.  Chairman,  are  so  different  from  those  just  expressed  by  the 
gentleman  from  Loudoun,  (Mr.  Henderson.)  upon  this  interesting  subject,  and  my 
district  is  so  much  opposed  to  the  measure  now  under  consideration,  that  I  feel  it  an 
imperious  duty  to  submit  to  the  Convention  my  views  on  it.  The  amendment  has 
certainly  the  merit  of  advancing  boldly  to  the  question,  and  proposes,  what  I  con- 
ceive, amounts  essentially  to  Universal  Suffrage.  There  cannot  be  a  more  fit  occasion 
to  enquire,  what  ought  to  be  the  basis  of  Suffrage,  than  when  it  is  proposed  to  extend 
that  right  to  almost  every  man  in  the  country.  I  find  myself,  Mr.  Chairman,  placed 
in  a  new  attitude.  If  we  are  to  take  the  sentiments  of  myself,  and  those  with  whom 
I  act,  from  the  representations  of  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  we  should  be  induced 
to  suppose,  that  we  are  not  only  inimical  to  the  whole  class  of  the  poor  in  this  coun- 
try, but  to  Republican  institutions  in  general.  I  do  not  mean  to  make  professions  of 
my  principles.  But  I  may  be  permitted  to  say,  that  though  in  the  different  political 
scenes  and  vicissitudes  which  have  taken  place  in  this  country,  my  situation  may 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


36^ 


liave  been  humble  and  obscure  :  though  I  have  not  filled  high  stations,  I  have  not 
stood  bv  vdth  apathy  as  to  passing  events.  1  have  always  taken  a  deep  interest  in 
them,  and  have  not  been  inactive.  It  is  true  that  I  have  served  as  a  private,^ but 
have  felt  as  much  zeal,  as  others  who  were  more  elevated.  I  had  supposed  that  from 
mv  boyhood,  I  was  encraored  in  defending  free  principles,  by  fighting  under  the  ban- 
ners of  the  most  distinguished  patriots  of  the  lajid;  but  novr  the  gentlemen  on  the 
other  side,  endeavor  to^take  our  weapons  out  of  om  hands,  to  defeat  us  with  them. 
This  pohcy  of  attempting  to  ahenate  the  people  from  their  friends,  is  as  old  as  the 
davs  of  ^'sop.  We  are'told  in  one  of  his  fables,  that  certain  shepherds  had  their 
flocks  protected  by  their  watch-dosrs,  who  proved  faithful  sentinels,  and  resisted  every 
efibrt  of  the  wolves  to  break  into  the  fold.  Baffled  in  thefr  attempts,  the  wolves  per- 
suaded the  shepherds  that  it  was  an  useless  expense  and  trouble  to  maintain  these 
faithfril  sentinels,  and  made  solenm  promises,  that  if  they  would  dismiss  them,  they 
should  sustain  no'injurv.  Deluded  by  these  assurances,  the  shepherds  comphed  with 
the  request,  but  the  consequence  was,  tliat  the  wolves  broke  into  the  fold  and 
destroyed  all  the  flock.  But  such  policy  will  not  be  efi'ectual  in  this  country:  the 
people  are  intelhgent;  they  know  who  are  their  friends,  and  they  will  never  abandon 
them. 

The  gentleman  from  Loudoun  has  been  pleased  to  say,  that  when  on  a  former  oc- 
casion 1  depicted  the  evils  which  would  result  from  an  attempt  to  force  a  Constitution 
upon  a  large  portion  of  the  people,  which  they  believed  to  be  oppressive  and  ruinous 
to  them,  and  that  by  a  meagre  majority,  and  stated  that  the  consequences  might  be 
awful,  that  I  could 'not  be  in  earnest,  because  my  countenance,  at  the  time,  expressed 
no  strong  emotion,  but  was  placid  and  immoved.  But  that  gentleman  is  yet  to  learn 
that  a  placid  countenance  is  not  incompatible  with  firmness  of  purpose;  and  I  trust 
that  in  the  discharofe  of  the  duties  wiiich  I  ovre  my  constituents,  I  shall  not  flinch  from 
the  assertion  of  their  rights,  but  be  as  firm  and  immoveable,  as  any  gentleman,  with 
whatever  fervor  of  manner,  he  may  support  liis  opinions. 

I  cannot,  Mr.  Chairman,  promise  the  Committee  to  gratify  them  with  the  great 
variety  of  topics  and  illustrations,  which  the  talents  of  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun 
has  enabled  him  to  lay  before  them.  It  shall  be  my  humble  endeavour  to  discuss  the 
question  before  the  Committee.  I  shall  not  doubt  the  sincerity  of  the  gentleman's 
opinions,  though  he  would  appear  to  question  mine.  [Mr.  Henderson  here  stated, 
that  he  did  not  doubt  the  sincerity  of  the  gentleman,  but  only  whether  under  momen- 
tary excitement,  he  might  not  have  expressed,  what  in  cahner  moments  he  would 
have  repudiated.] 

]Mr.  jsicholas  observed,  that  he  did  not  know  how  he  could  be  understood  to  have 
spoken  under  excitement,  when  a  placidity  of  countenance  at  the  moment  was  attri- 
buted to  him,  incompatible  with  the  feelings  he  expressed.  He  continued — I  received 
with  pleasure  the  assurances  of  good  will,  and  good  feelings  expressed  by  the  gentle- 
man from  Loudoun,  and  cordially  reciprocate  them.  He  said  he  should  disdain  him- 
self, if  he  suffered  difference  of  senthnent  on  public  subjects  to  inspire  him  with  iU 
will  to  any  gentleman.  It  was  not  his  habit.  Every  thmg  which  had  occurred  in 
his  intercourse  with  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  during  their  short  acquaintance, 
had  impressed  him  withlar  different  feelings. 

3Ir.  said,  he  should  proceed  to  discuss  what  was  the  real  question  before  the 
Committee,  stripped  of  those  extraneous  considerations,  which  do  not  bear  upon  it,  and 
which  are  rather  calculated  to  mislead,  than  to  enlighten.  This  subject  has  received 
from  me.  ]Mr.  Chairman,  my  anxious  consideration ;.  not  onh-  since  it  has  been  agitated 
in  this  Convention,  but  whilst  during  the  canvass,  which  preceded  the  elections,  it 
was  discussed  in  the  public  prints,  in  speeches  to  the  people,  and  in  the  addresses  of 
various  gentlemen  who  were  called  on  to  declare  their  sentiments.  Amongst  the  ar- 
guments rehed  upon  by  tlie  advocates  of  a  very  extended  Suffrage,  one  of  the  most 
fallacious,  is,  that  which  attempts  to  found  the  right  upon  principles  of  natural  equa- 
hty.  This  pre-supposes  that  Suffrage  is  derived  from  nature.  Now.  nothing  can  be 
clearer,  than  that  Suffrage  is  a  conventional,  and  not  a  natural  right.  In  a  state  of 
nature,  (if  such  state  ever  existed  except  in  the  imagination  of  the  poets,)  every  man 
acts  for  himself,  and  is  the  sole  judge  of  what  will  contribute  to  his  happiness.  When 
he  enters  into  the  social  state,  which  he  is  compelled  to  do,  to  guard  himself  against 
violence,  and  to  protect  him  in  the  enjoyment  of  the  fruits  of  his  industry,  he  gives 
up  to  the  society  the  powers  of  Government,  and  surrenders  to  it,  so  much  of  his 
natural  rights  as  are  essential  to  secure  to  him  such  portion  of  tliose  rights  which  he 
retains,  or  such  other  rights  as  grow  out  of  the  new  relations  in  which  he  is  placed. 

In  the  rudiments  of  society,  and  whilst  the  people  are  few,  the  making  laws  and 
the  decision  on  the  most  important  concerns,  such,  for  instance,  as  war  and  peace, 
were  exercised  by  the  body  of  the  people  in  their  collective  capacity.  Such  was  the 
ancient  republic  of  Athens,  and  some  of  the  other  Grecian  States,  and  such  is  said  to 
be  the  littJe  republic  of  St.  Marino.  When  the  community  became  large,  it  was 
found  impracticable  to  exercise  their  sovereignty  in  their  primary  Assemblies.  These 


364 


DEBATES 


OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


were  too  numerous  for  deliberation,  and  were  too  much  under  the  control  of  violent 
passions,  and  too  liable  to  be  influenced  by  the  seductions  of  artful  men,  who  flattered 
the  people  only  to  destroy  them.  It  was  found  absolutely  necessary,  to  entrust  the 
making-  of  laws  and  the  management  of  the  public  aflairs  to  agents,  or  deputies, 
and  this  gave  rise  to  representation.  The  power  of  voting  for  these  agents  or  depu- 
ties constitutes  the  Pught  of  Suifrage.  This  plain  exposition  of  the  origin  and  for- 
mation of  society,  incontestibly  shows  that  both  Representation  and  Suffrage  are  so- 
cial institutions.  It  proves  that  it  is  a  solecism  to  insist,  that  it  is  proper  to  refer  back 
to  a  state  of  nature,  for  principles  to  regulate  rights  which  never  existed  in  it — which 
could  only  exist  after  mankind  abandoned  it,  rather  than  by  a  correct  estimate  of 
those  relations,  which  are  to  be  found  in  a  state  of  society,  of  which,  both  Representa- 
tion and  Suffrage  are  the  offspring.  It  has  been  attempted  to  sustain  almost  unlimited 
suffrage,  (I  know  not  whether  in  the  Committee,  as  1  did  not  come  in  until  after  the 
gentleman  from  Loudoun  had  been  speaking  some  time,  but  certainly  elsewhere,)  by 
reference  to  those  general  phrases  in  the  Bill  of  Rights,  which  declare,  "  that  all  men 
are  by  nature  equally  free  and  independent."  But  the  same  section  of  the  Bill  of 
Rights  plainly  discriminates  between  the  state  of  nature,  and  the  social  state,  and  ad- 
mits the  modification  which  natural  rights  may  receive  by  entering  into  society.  It 
is  true  it  speaks  of  inherent  rights,  of  which  men,  when  they  enter  into  society 
^'  cannot  by  any  compact  deprive  or  divest  their  posterity  "  namely,  the  enjoyment 
of  life  and  liberty,  with  the  means  of  acquiring  and  possessing  property,  and  pursu- 
ing and  obtaining  happiness  and  safety."  But  it  is  most  obvious  that  this  last  clause 
does  not  comprehend  suffrage,  or  representation,  or  any  fancied  rights  growing  out  of 
them  ;  first,  because  these  are  not  natural  rights ;  and  next,  if  they  were,  as  the  clause 
last  referred  to  enumerates  the  riglits  which  a  man  in  a  social  state  cannot  alienate, 
and  that  enumeration  has  nothing  to  do  with  suffrage  or  representation,  it  must  in 
candour  be  admitted,  that  these  subjects  are  surrendered  (so  far  as  the  Bill  of  Rights 
is  concerned)  to  the  regulation  of  society.  These  considerations,  Mr.  Chairman,  ap- 
pear to  me  clearly  to  prove,  that  in  deciding  upon  suffrage,  we  are  deciding  a  ques- 
tion of  expediency  and  policy,  and  that  we  ought  so  to  regulate  it,  as  will  best  pro- 
mote the  happiness  and  prosperity  of  society.  Our  opponents  have  themselves  af- 
forded unequivocal  evidence  of  the  truth  of  what  we  contend  for,  by  advocating 
schemes  of  suffrage  which  profess  to  impose  restrictions  on  the  exercise  of  the  right, 
though  those  restrictions  (in  my  humble  judgment)  are  totally  inadequate  and  illusory. 

I  have  reflected  much  on  this  subject,  because  every  one  must  have  anticipated, 
that  it  would  be,  save  one,  the  most  important  which  could  employ  the  deliberations 
of  this  assembly,  and  that  with  the  one  alluded  to,  it  had  the  most  intimate  connexion. 
In  forming  my  opinion,  I  am  perfectly  satisfied,  that  the  rule  laid  down  in  our  Bill  of 
Rights,  is  the  true  one  on  this  subject.  And  here,  Mr.  Chairman,  permit  me  to  join 
most  heartily  in  the  eulogiums  which  have  been  so  repeatedly  pronounced  by  the 
gentlemen  on  the  other  side,  on  the  profound  wisdom,  exalted  patriotism,  and  un- 
bounded devotion  to  free  Governments,  of  the  framers  of  our  Bill  of  Rights.  I  sub- 
scribe entirely  to  every  part  of  it,  and  adopt  it  as  containing  the  articles  of  my  political 
faith.  It  is  much,  however,  to  be  deplored,  that  whilst  these  gentlemen  pay  such 
adoration  to  the  Bill  of  Rights,  and  its  authors,  they  should  in  the  same  breath  deny 
that  they  understood  their  own  principles,  and  assert,  that  in  the  formation  of  every 
essential  part  of  the  Constitution,  they  were  guilty  of  a  flagrant  violation  of  them  I 
What  then,  is  the  rule  laid  down  by  the  authors  of  our  Constitution  on  this  subject.? 
It  is,  "  that  all  men  having  sufficient  evidence  of  permanent,  common  interest  with, 
and  attachment  to,  the  community,  have  the  Right  of  Suffrage."  Every  part  of  this 
definition,  Mr.  Chairman,  is  highly  important.  First,  there  must  be  "  sufficient  evi- 
dence," and  next,  it  nmst  be  the  evidence  "  of  permanent,  common  interest  with, 
and  attachment  to,  the  community."  Now,  I  contend  that  this  sufficient  evidence  of 
common,  permanent  interest,  is  only  to  be  found  in  a  lasting  ownership  of  the  soil  of 
the  country. 

This  kind  of  property  is  durable,  it  is  indestructible;  and  the  man  who  acquires,  or 
is  the  proprietor  of  it,  connects  his  fate  by  the  strongest  of  all  ties,  with  the  destiny 
of  the  country.  No  other  species  of  property  has  the  same  qualities,  or  affords  the 
same  evidence.  Personal  property  is  fluctuating — it  is  frequently  invisible,  as  well  as 
intangible — it  can  be  removed,  and  can  be  enjoyed  as  well  in  one  society  as  another. 
What  evidence  of  permanent  interest  and  attachment,  is  afforded  by  the  ownership 
of  horses,  cattle,  or  slaves?  Can  it  retard  or  impede  the  removal  from  the  State,  in 
times  of  difficulty  or  danger  impending  over  it?  What  security  is  the  ownership  of 
Bank  or  other  stocks,  or  in  the  funded  debt?  None.  A  man  may  transfer  this  kind 
of  property  in  a  few  moments,  take  his  seat  in  the  stage,  or  embark  in  the  steamboat, 
and  be  out  of  the  State  in  one  day,  carrying  with  him  all  he  possesses. 

The  same  objection  applies  to  admitting  persons  who  have  only  a  temporary  in- 
terest ixi  the  soil :  besides,  that  these  temporary  interests  give  a  control  to  others, 
over  the  votes  of  the  holder,  just  as  certainly,  as  that  "  a  control  over  a  man's  subsis- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTIOX. 


365 


tence,  is  always  a  control  over  his  mil/'  In  vain  do  gentlemen  refer  to  the  example 
of  other  States.  Here  we  have  a  safe  rule  laid  down,  by  the  wisdom  of  our  ances- 
tors, whom  a-entlemen  unite  in  canonizing,  and  tested  and  approved  by  the  experience 
of  more  than  half  a  century.  Sir,  I  always  thought  I  was  a  republican,  but  gentle- 
men would  argue  me  out  of  my  behef.  I  have  always  supposed,  tliat  our  Right  of 
Suffrage  was  so  constructed,  as  to  protect  both  persons  and  property.  God  forbid 
that  I  should  wish  to  exclude  any,  who  I  can  be  convinced  ought  to  be  admitted,  or 
that  I  would  oppress  any  portion  of  my  fellow-citizens.  My  principles  would  lead 
me  to  admit  all  I  could,  "'consistently  with  what  I  beheve  the  welfare  of  society  re- 
quires. I  am  no  enemy  to  the  non-freeholder;  but  I  must  vote  for  that  rule,  which 
by  securing  the  tranquillity  and  happiness  of  society .  secures  those  inestimable  blessings 
to  every  inember  of  it.  I  do  not  deny  to  the  advocates  of  greatly  extended  suffrage, 
either  in  this  House  or  out  of  it,  perfect  rectitude  and  sincerity  of  motive.  Enthusiasm 
is  always  sincere — but  that  truth  does  not  at  all  mitigate  the  evils  and  desolations, 
which  it  has  often  inflicted  on  mankind. 

Sir,  I  know  it  has  become  fashionable  to  represent  those  who  are  opposed  to  many 
of  the  innovations  whiclrare  contemplated,  as  the  enemies  of  the  people.  Whether 
I  am  their  friend,  I  shall  endeavor  to  manifest  by  my  acts,  and  not  by  my  professions. 
No  denunciations  have  any  terror  for  me.  They  will  pass  by  me  like  the  idle  wind 
which  1  regard  not.'"  There  is  what  I  consider  a  very  strong  and  decisive  argument 
in  favor  of  the  rule  I  lay  down,  for  suffrage  to  be  drawn  from  the  act  of  the  framers 
of  our  Bill  of  Rights,  which  is  contemporaneous  with  it.  It  is  that  part  of  the  Con- 
stitution, which  declares  that  the  Right  of  Suffrage  in  the  election  of  members  of 
both  Houses,  shall  remain  as  exercised  at  present."  Now,  the  freehold  suffrage  was 
then  the  established  mode.  The  framers  of  your  Constitution  declare  to  you  in  the 
most  emphatic  manner,  that  the  rule  winch  they  laid  down  in  the  Bill  of  Rights  as  to 
suffrage,  could  only  be  complied  v.'ith,  by  requiring  a  permanent  interest  in  the  soil. 
Here  then,  is  contemporaneous  exposition  always  deemed  the  best.  Nay,  more,  here 
is  a  declaration  of  these  wise  men  who  framed  the  Bill  of  Rights,  as  to  what  they 
intended  in  it.  Will  gentlemen  contend,  after  their  splendid  eulogiums  on  them, 
that  they  did  not  understand  tlieir  own  words  and  intentions,  but  that  the  men  of  the 
present  day,  are  better  expositors  of  both.'  But  the  intelligent  gentleman  from  Frede- 
rick, endeavours  to  obviate  the  force  of  this  argument,  by  insisting  that  this  part  of 
the  Constitution  is  not  to  have  the  same  authorily  as  other  parts,  because  the  framers 
of  the  Government  did  not,  for  tlae  first  time,  establish  the  rule  of  suffrage,  but  merely 
left  it  as  they  found  it.  This  may  be  specious,  but  in  my  poor  judgment,  is  not  sohd. 
The  framers  of  our  Government  were  employed  in  estalDlishing  a  system  adapted  to 
the  changes  produced  by  the  revolution.  It  was  not  incumbent  on  them  to  change 
every  thing.  It  was  only  wise  and  proper  to  abolish  such  parts  of  our  former  system, 
as  were  irreconcileable  with  the  republican  form  we  were  about  to  carry  into  effect. 
Thus,  we  find  in  several  parts  of  the  Constitution,  portions  of  the  old  institutions 
were  retained.  But  they  were  retained  upon  due  consideration,  and  by  adoption  be- 
came just  as  much  the  act  of  the  framers  of  the  Government,  as  the  parts  which  were 
created  by  them.  If  the  framers  of  the  Government  had  said  the  suffrage  should  be 
conferred  on  the  freeholder,  it  would  be  admitted,  I  presume,  that  in  every  sense,  it 
was  a  rule  established  hy  them.  Now,  can  it  make  any  difference,  except  in  mere 
form,  that  a  phraseology  is  used,  which  retains  the  rule  of  suffrage  which  had  pre- 
viously existed.  But  the  same  gentleman  contends,  that  the  retention  of  the  Right 
of  Suffrage,  as  theretofore  exercised,  resulted  probably  either  from  the  Constitution 
being  made  in  haste  and  amid  the  noise  of  hostile  cannon,  or  that  it  was  a  sacrifice 
made  to  propitiate,  or  rather  to  avoid  the  alienation  of  the  freeholders.  Both  these 
hypotheses  appear  to  me  to  be  incorrect.  As  to  the  Constitution  being  the  result  of 
hasty  or  timid  councils,  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  (Mr.  Giles.)  in  a  former 
debate,  has  clearly  shown,  on  the  best  evidence,  it  was  not  the  case.  And  as  to  this 
provision  being  an  oblation  to  the  freeholders.  I  find  no  trace  in  the  Constitution 
itself,  in  the  iiTstory  of  the  times,  or  even  m  any  tradition  which  has  come  down  to 
us,  to  justify  the  idea.  I  believe  that  at  the  period  spoken  of,  there  was  such  a  devo- 
tion to  country,  such  a  love  of  hberty,  and  such  disinterestedness,  that  the  Convention 
might,  with  perfect  safety,  have  made  any  arrangement  which  they  believed  would 
contribute  to  sustain  free  principles.  But  they  were  wise  and  practical  statesmen, 
and  they  knew  and  felt,  that  they  had  established  a  rule  which  was  perfectly  com- 
patible with  republican  institutions.  The  force  of  the  argument  derived  from  their 
authority,  as  well  as  from  the  experience  under  it,  remains  complete  and  unimpaired. 
Gentlemen  argue  this  question  as  if  it  was  one  between  tlie  Satraps,  (the  existence  of 
whom  they  choose  to  suppose)  and  the  poor  of  the  land.  Instead  of  making  war 
upon  the  middhng  or  even  the  poorer  classes,  we  believe  we  are  defending  their  best 
interests.  We  go  not  foi"  the  interests  of  wealth,  when  we  say,  that  we  are  of  opinion 
that  an  interest  in  the  soil  is  the  best  evidence  of  permanent  attachment.  This  idea 
of  an  aristocracy  of  freeholders,  is  not  only  incorrect  but  ludicrous.    Are  we  con- 


366 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION* 


tending  for  giving  wealth  in  the  distribution  of  suffrage,  a  weight  in  proportion  to  its 
extent  ?  The  answer  is,  that  a  freeliolder,  v/hose  farm  is  worth  fifty  dollars,  has  as 
available  a  suffrage  as  one  who  has  land  worth  two  hundred  thousand  dollars.  Are 
we  for  fixing  a  high  property  qualification  ?  We  reply,  that  it  appears  from  this  debate, 
that  a  man  can  get  a  freehold  in  almost  any  county  in  the  State  for  fifty  dollars,  and 
in  some  (indeed  many)  for  twenty-five  dollars,  or  for  a  smaller  sum.  And  yet  we  are 
gravely  told,  that  these  freeholds,  accessible  as  they  are  to  the  industry  and  exertions 
of  all,  constitute  an  odious  aristocracy.  Sir,  we  do  not  even  require  that  these  free- 
holds should  be  productive,  (as  many  of  them  are  not)  of  one  cent  of  revenue.  Sir, 
the  beauty  of  this  system,  its  republican  feature,  is,  that  the  humblest  freeholder  is 
put  on  a  footing  with  the  richest  man  in  the  State.  It  was  a  little  remarkable  that 
the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee  proposed  what  I  conceived  to  be  a  violation 
of  our  Constitutional  principles  on  this  subject,  by  requiring  that  in  addition  to  the  \ 
quantity  of  acres  required  by  law,  there  should  be  a  tax  to  a  certain  amount  paid.  I 
voted  against  this  restriction,  and  I  am  glad  it  was  stricken  out  by  a  large  majority, 
I  am  for  depriving  no  man  of  a  vote,  now  entitled  to  it.  I  care  not  whether  a  man's 
freehold  be  productive  or  otherwise.  It  is  his  all,  and  is  as  dear  to  him,  as  the  freehold 
of  the  owner  of  thousands  of  acres  is  to  its  proprietor.  But  it  is  said,  that  every  man 
who  pays  a  tax  ought  to  vote — now,  wliat  evidence  of  interest  in  the  community,  is 
furnished  by  the  payment  of  four  cents  upon  a  horse,  or  paying  a  poor  rate  and 
ceunty  levy Is  it  even  the  semblance  of  testimony,  that  the  person  paying  it,  in- 
tends to  remain  in  the  Commonwealth  ?  It  is  also  contended  that  service  in  the  militia, 
is  a  proper  and  valid  claim  to  a  vote.  It  is  said  the  non-freeholder  fights  your  battles — 
but  does  not  the  freeholder  do  so  too  ?  And  does  he  not  do  another  thing,  pay  for  the 
support  of  the  non-freeholder  ?  War  cannot  be  carried  on  by  men  alone  :  you  require 
munitions  of  war,  provisions  and  every  thing  necessary  to  equip  and  sustain  an  army. 
Without  these,  numbers  are  of  no  avail,  indeed  injurious.  Your  army  would  soon  be 
disorganized  without  them.  In  time  of  peace,  the  militia  service  which  is  common 
to  freeholder  and  non-freeholder,  is  light,  if  not  nominal.  In  time  of  war,  you  draw 
heavily  on  the  property  of  the  country,  and  then  the  freeholder  is  not  only  bound  to 
fight,  but  to  pay.  We  have  a  strong  example  of  this  during  the  last  war.  During 
that  war,  Virginia  was  thrown  very  much  upon  her  own  resources,  and  having  found 
that  the  keeping  very  large  bodies  of  militia  in  the  field,  was  very  harassing  to  the 
people,  very  expensive,  and  not  very  efficient,  the  Assembly  determined  on  raising 
ten  thousand  men  for  the  defence  of  the  State.  The  law  provided,  that  the  expenses 
of  these  troops  should  be  assessed  on  the  property  of  the  country,  and  it  would  have 
fallen  with  great  and  oppressive  weight  on  the  land  and  slave-owners.  Happily,  the 
intervention  of  peace  saved  the  country  from  the  severe  burthens,  to  which  the  pro- 
perty-holders would  have  been  subjected.  But  it  serves  to  show,  what  ever  will  be  ' 
the  case,  when  we  are  exposed  to  the  calamities  incident  to  war. 

The  gentleman  from  Loudoun  has  stated,  that  he  knows  of  no  particular  virtue  at- 
tached to  the  soil,  that  we  should  select  the  owners  as  the  sole  depositories  of  political 
power.  All  professions  are  on  a  par  in  his  estimation.  I  do  not  pretend  that  great 
virtues  may  not  be  found  in  all  the  professions  and  walks  of  life.  But  I  do  believe, 
if  there  are  any  chosen  people  of  God,  they  are  the  cultivators  of  the  soil.  If  there 
be  virtue  to  be  found  any  where,  it  would  be  amongst  the  middling  farmers,  who  con- 
stitute the  yeomanry,  the  bone  and  sinew  of  our  country.  Sir,  they  are  men  of  mo- 
derate desires,  they  have  to  labor  for  their  subsistence,  and  the  support  of  their  fami- 
lies ;  their  wishes  are  bounded  by  the  limits  of  their  small  possessions ;  they  are  not 
harassed  by  envy,  by  the  love  of  show  and  splendor,  nor  agitated  by  the  restless  and 
insatiable  passion  of  ambition.  When  they  lay  their  heads  at  night  upon  their  pillows 
under  the  consciousness  of  having  spent  the  day  in  the  discharge  of  their  duties  to 
their  families,  they  enjoy  a  sweeter  sleep  under  their  humble  roofs,  than  frequently 
do  those  who  repose  in  gilded  palaces.  Amid  the  same  description  of  persons,  I 
should  look  for  independence  of  character.  It  is  a  fact,  that  our  voters  are  less  ex- 
posed to  influence  and  intrigue,  than  any,  I  believe,  in  the  United  States.  A  man  may 
be  popular  enough  to  be  elected  himself,  but  he  cannot  dictate  to  the  voters  to  elect 
any  other.  A  man  who  would  attempt  this  would  be  apt  to  be  insulted,  and  I  have 
known  illustrious  examples  of  some  of  the  most  popular  men  5  aye.  Sir,  in  the  zenith 
of  their  popularity,  who  could  not  control  an  election  in  favour  of  another.  Do  you 
ever  hear  in  this  State  of  a  man  being  called,  as  in  some  of  the  States,  the  partizan 
of  some  great  name.''  A  Livingston  man,  or  a  Clinton  man  for  example.?  Ask  one 
of  our  freeholders  whose  man  he  is,  he  will  tell  you  he  is  his  own  man.  These  men 
know  that  their  land  is  their  own,  that  they  are  the  lords  of  the  soil;  that  according  to 
the  principles  of  the  common  law,  their  house  is  their  castle,  and  that  no  man  dare 
invade  either,  with  impunity.  Do  you  beheve,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  there  is  any  pro- 
perty which  attaches  a  man  so  much  to  the  country  as  the  land  ?  There  is  none.  His 
attachment  to  his  home,  is  connected  with  the  best  sympathies  of  the  human  heart.  " 
It  is  the  place  of  his  boyish  sports,  the  birth  place  of  his  children ;  and  contains  the 


DEBATES    OF   THE  COXYENTIOX. 


367 


bones  of  his  ancestors.  He  will  love  his  couiitry  which  contains  a  home  so  dear  to 
him,  and  defend  that  countty  at  the  hazard  of  his  life. 

There  is  one  consideration  which  shows  the  propriety  of  making  land  the  basis  of 
pohlical  power.  It  is.  that  the  lajid.  has  always  been,  and  will  ever  continue  to  be, 
the  principal  source  from  which  all  your  taxes  are  derived.  The  freeholders,  if  they 
are  an  aristocracy,  are  the  most  lenient  aristocrats  who  ever  existed.  From  the  foun- 
dation of  our  Repubhc.  and  lon^  before,  land-holders,  who  are  the  largest  slave-hol- 
ders too,  have  paid  vour  principal  taxes.  We  have  parted  with  the  customs  to  the 
General  Government,  and  the  only  other  sources  of  revenue  of  any  great  extent, 
are  your  lands  and  negroes.  The  freeholders  too,  pay  a  large  share  of  the  other  taxes, 
such  as  taxes  on  hcenses,  horses  and  carriages.  Tou  can  never  expect  to  see  a  capi- 
tation tax,  nor  an  income  tax.  They  both  are  odious  in  their  character:  the  first  is 
very  unjust,  and  the  second  must  be'  attended  with  such  inquisitorial  powers  to  your 
officers,  and  be  so  easily  eluded  by  fi-aud,  that  it  will  not  be  attempted.  They  tried  it 
in  England,  and  it  was"  the  cause'  of  overturning  the  ministry  which  introduced  it. 
But  the  great  advantaore  of  the  freehold  system  is.  that  it  keeps  the  Government  in 
the  hands  of  the  middling  classes.  So  far  from  being  aristocratic,  it  is  the  best  safe- 
guard against  aristocracy.  It  places  the  power  in  the  hands  of  those  who  are  inter- 
ested to  guard  both  property  and  persons  against  oppression.  The  idea  of  aristocracy 
is  absurdT  Did  you'ever  hear  of  an  aristocracy  of  fifty  dollar,  or  twenty-five  dollar 
freeholders .'  In  the  hands  of  these  freeholders,  personal  rights  are  just  as  secure  as 
the  rights  of  property.  3Iany  of  the  non-freeholders  are  the  sons  of  freeholders. 
Would  thev  support  meeisures  which  would  oppress  their  own  sons  Besides,  have 
not  the  great  body  of  the  freeholders  such  perfect  identity  of  condition  with  the  non- 
freeholders,  that  "they  could  pass  no  law  for  the  regulation  of  personal  rights  which 
would  not  equally  affect  them  as  well  as  the  non-freeholders.  To  those  who  take  a 
superficial  view  of  things,  it  might  appear  that  placing  the  power  in  the  hands  of 
men,  without  regard  to  their  condition,  would  advance  the  cause  of  Hberty.  Many 
will  teU  you,  Sir,  that  they  would  do  this  to  counteract  the  influence  of  "wealth  in 
society. 

But  these  men,  many  of  whom  are  ardent  friends  of  liberty,  are  unconsciously 
laborincr  to  undermine  the  cause  of  which  they  mean  to  be  the  'strenuous  advocates. 
As  long  as  pohtical  power  is  placed  as  it  now  is  in  Virginia,  in  the  hands  of  the  mid- 
dling classes,  who,  though  not  rich,  are  yet  sufficiently  so,  to  secure  their  indepen- 
dence, you  have  nothing  to  fear  from  wealth.  But  place  power  in  the  hands  of  those 
who  have  none,  or  a  very  trivial  stake  in  the  community,  and  you  expose  the  poor 
and  dependent  to  the  influence  and  seductions  of  wealth.  The  extreme  rich,  and  the 
extreme  poor,  if  not  natural  alhes.  will  become  so  in  fact.  The  rich  vdll  relieve  the 
necessities  of  the  poor,  and  the  latter  will  become  subservient  to  the  ambition  of  the 
rich.  Tou  hear  nothing  of  the  bribery  and  corruption  of  freeholders.  IS'o  man  is 
hardy  enough  to  attempt  it.  But  extend  the  Right  of  Su&age  to  every  man  depen- 
dent, as  well  as  independent,  and  you  immediately  open  the  flood-gates  of  corruption. 
You  will  undermine  the  public  and  private  virtue  of  your  people,  and  this  your 
boasted  Repubhc,  established  by  the  wisdom  of  your  ancestors,  and  defended  at  the 
hazard  of  their  fives.  wiU  share  the  fate  of  all  those  which  have  preceded  it,  whose 
gradual  decline,  and  final  extinction,  it  has  been  the  melancholy  task  of  history  to 
record. 

Mr.  Chairman,  the  revolution  of  France  has  been  fi-equently  invoked  into  this  de- 
bate, by  the  gentlemen  on  the  other  side )  but  I  cannot  see  to  what  useful  purpose  of 
argument  they  have  apphed  it.  I  do  not  see  that  there  is  any  thing  very  inviting  in 
the  progress  or  termination  of  that  revolution,  from  which  we  can  infer  "the  propriety 
of  a  hasty,  inconsiderate  and  radical  chansre  of  our  institutions.  The  French.  I  be- 
heve.  had  cause  to  be  greatly  dissatisfied  with  their  ancient  Government.  During 
that  revolution,  though  young,  I  vras  an  enthusiastic  admirer  of  what  I  believed  to 
be  the  cause  of  the  people  resisting  oppression.  But  the  excesses  of  that  revolution, 
have  done  more  injury  to  the  cause  of  freedom,  than  any  thing  which  has  happened 
in  modern  times.  Those  excesses  have  served  to  rivet  the  chains  of  despotism  in  all 
the  monarchies  of  Europe.  Those  who  set  the  revolution  in  motion,  were  many  of 
them.  I  have  no  doubt,  virtuous  and  enlightened  men.  But  they  were  more  of  phi- 
losophers and  theorists,  than  practical  statesmen.  They  enlightened  the  minds  of  the 
people.  They  pointed  out  tiie  oppressions  and  tyranny  under  which  thev  suffered. 
They  raised  a  storm,  which  they  had  not  the  power  to  direct,  and  of  which  they  be- 
came the  victims.  They  devised  schemes  of  Government,  which  were  either  not 
adapted  to  the  state  of  the  times,  or  which  the  people  were  incapable  of  hving  under. 
They  did  not  know  how  free  Governments  would  work :  meanwhile,  there  arose  fac- 
tions, to  which  revolutions  not  unfrequently  give  birth,  consisting  of  men  who  had 
nothing  to  lose  and  every  thing  to  gain — men  dissolute  and  depraved — who,  under 
the  mask  of  patriotism,  were  bent  on  the  acquisition  of  wealth  and  power.  Those 
persons  collecting  round  them  all  the  men  of  desperate  fortunes,  aided  by  the  mobs  of 


368 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Paris,  began  by  pushing  revolutionary  principles  to  an  extreme,  which  those  who 
commenced  the  work  of  reformation  never  contemplated ;  and  because  they  would 
not  sanction  the  crimes  which  were  perpetrated  by  the  mountain  and  other  factions, 
they  were  brought  to  the  guillotine.  Every  man  must  recollect  with  horror,  the  bloody 
scenes,  which  took  place  in  France,  when  no  age,  no  sex,  no  virtues  were  safe  from 
the  infuriated  monsters  who  perpetrated  crimes  under  the  profaned  name  of  liberty. 
I  mention  not  these  things  in  derogation  of  the  cause  of  freedom.  I  should  rejoice 
to  see  free  institutions  established  in  every  country  which  willed  to  be  free.  But  what 
was  the  result  ?  After  spilling  oceans  of  blood,  France  flew  to  the  arms  of  despotism 
as  a  refuge  from  crimes  and  miseries  inflicted  under  the  abused  name  of  liberty — and 
where  is  she  now.?  Restored  to  the  dominion  of  the  same  odious  dynasty,  to  escape 
which,  she  suffered  so  long  and  so  cruelly.  The  misfortunes  she  has  undergone, 
have  strengthened  what  is  called  the  cause  of  legitimacy,  by  uniting  all  the  despots 
of  the  world,  in  a  crusade  against  liberty,  and  rendering  desperate  the  friends  of 
liberal  principles  in  every  part  of  Europe.  I  have  dwelt  too  long  on  this  subject,  and 
should  not  have  said  thus  much,  but  that  the  example  of  France  has  been  so  often 
quoted  on  us.  Our  lot  in  this  Commonwealth  is  a  happy  one,  if  we  would  but  be 
content  with  it.  Our  institutions  are  free,  no  man  is  oppressed,  and  ever}^  man  is  se- 
cure in  the  enjoyment  of  the  fruits  of  honest  industry.  Our  Government  has  no 
taint  of  monarchy,  or  aristocracy,  and  poAver  is  in  the  hands  of  the  great  body  of  the 
yeomanry  of  the  country.    What  can  a  people  want  more  ! 

It  was  not  my  purpose  to  answer  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun  in  detail.  I  wished 
to  give  a  general  view  of  the  principles,  on  which  I  vindicate  the  freehold  Right  of 
Suffrage,  though  it  may  be  capable  of  some  modifications.  I  will  make  a  few  remarks, 
however,  on  the  charges  of  oppression  and  misrule,  which  the  gentleman  has  brought 
against  the  existing  Government.  The  gentleman  must  have  been  hard  pressed  for 
facts  to  illustrate  his  opinion,  when  he  has  resorted  to  a  period  of  remote  antiquity, 
the  year  1656,  to  quote  an  insulated  provision  in  the  Statute  Book,  to  shew  oppression 
in  the  freeholders.  I  allude  to  the  exemption  of  voters  and  overseers  from  militia 
services.  This  law  remained  in  force  only  a  few  years — we  hear  of  no  instance  of 
complaint  against  it — and  we  do  not  know  but  it  originated  in  sound  policy,  which 
might  have  required,  that  in  the  then  state  of  infancy  of  the  Colony,  surrounded  as 
they  were  by  hostile  tribes  of  Indians,  and  trembling  for  their  existence,  it  might  have 
been  necessary  to  keep  a  certain  portion  of  the  population  employed  in  raising  the 
means  of  subsistence,  whilst  others  were  engaged  in  guarding  the  frontiers,  or  re- 
pelling incursions. 

The  other  specifications  of  supposed  abuses,  appear  to  me  unimportant  in  their 
character,  and  susceptible  of  easy  answers.  But  I  have  already  trespassed  too  long 
on  the  indulgence  of  the  Committee,  and  will  conclude  with  observing,  that  when  the 
talented  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  after  the  other  side  have  been  so  long  called  on, 
to  point  out  any  abuses  which  have  existed  under  this  Government,  has  only  been 
able  to  find  such  as  he  has  enumerated,  it  amounts  to  the  highest  eulogium,  which  can 
be  pronounced  on  our  institutions. 

Mr.  Leigh  now  moved  that  when  the  Convention  adjourned,  it  adjourn  to  meet  at 
eleven  o'clock;  which  motion  gave  rise  to  a  desultory  debate,  in  which  Messrs.  Leigh, 
Mercer,  Stanard,  Doddridge  and  Nicholas  took  part,  and  which  resulted  in  the  adop- 
tion of  Mr.  Leigh's  motion,  by  a  large  majority ;  and  then,  on  Mr,  Doddridge's  mo- 
tion, the  House  adjourned. 


THURSDAY,  November  19,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr, 
Taylor  of  the  Baptist  Church. 

The  House  went  again  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  Powell  in  the  Chair : 

And  the  question  being  on  the  following  amendment  of  Mr.  Wilson,  as  modified  at 
the  request  of  Mr.  Henderson  : 

"  Resolved,  That  every  free  white  male  citizen  of  this  Commonwealth,  of  the  age 
t)f  twenty-one  years,  and  upwards,  who  shall  have  resided  in  the  State  two  years,  and 
in  the  county  where  he  proposes  to  vote,  one  year  next  preceding  the  time  of  offering 
such  vote  ;  who  shall  have  been  enrolled  in  the  militia,  if  subject  to  military  duty  ;  and 
who  shall  have  paid  all  levies  and  taxes  assessed  upon  him,  or  his  property,  for  the  year 
preceding  that  in  which  he  offers  to  vote,  shall  have  a  right  to  vote  for  members  of 
the  General  Assembly :  Provided,  That  no  person  shall  be  permitted  to  exercise  the 
Right  of  Suffrage,  who  is  a  pauper;  who  is  of  unsound  mind;  who  has  been  con- 
victed of  any  infamous  crime ;  or  who  shall  be  a  non-commissioned  officer  or  private 
soldier,  seaman  or  marine  in  the  regular  service  of  the  United  tStates,  or  of  this 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


369 


Commonwealth ;  and  the  Legislature  shall  prescribe  the  mode  of  trying  and  deter- 
mining disputes  concerning  the  said  qualifications  of  voters,  whenever  the  right  of 
a  person  to  vote  shall  be  questioned." 

The  Chairman  rose  to  put  the  question,  when 

Mr.  Trezvant  of  Southampton  took  the  floor  in  opposition  to  its  passage. 

Mr.  T.  said,  that  he  had  not  intended  to  have  said  any  thing  upon  the  subject  under 
the  consideration  of  the  Committee,  nor  had  he  expected  to  have  said  any  thing  upon 
any  other  subject  which  might  be  discussed  in  the  Convention;  but  as  the  proposed 
amendment,  the  question  under  debate,  notv/ithstanding  its  importance,  was  about  to 
be  submitted  without  any  other  discussion  than  that  v.diich  it  received  yesterday,  he 
felt  himself  impelled  to  submit  a  few  remarks — remarks  of  course,  which  could  not  be 
the  result  of  any  previous  preparation,  and  which  necessarily  must  be  desultory  in 
their  character.  What  was  the  question  under  consideration  ?  The  object  of  the 
amendment  was  to  abolish  the  present  modification  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  and  to 
substitute  in  its  place,  one  entirely  new  to  us.  When  a  people  undertake  to  make  a 
change  in  their  political  institutions,  alfecting  the  foundation  of  Government,  it 
behoves  them  to  proceed  with  the  utmost  caution  and  circumspection.  We  should 
recollect  that  we  are  about  to  introduce  an  experiment  which  is  to  operate  upon  the 
affections,  prejudices,  and  long-established  habits  of  the  community,  and  the  conse- 
quences cannot  be  distinctly  foreseen  or  foretold.  A  numerous  population,  falling 
not  much  short  of  a  million,  cannot  at  once  throw  off  their  old  usages  and  customs, 
and  accommodate  themselves  to  an  entirely  new  order  of  things,  radically  different 
from  that  under  which  they  had  lived  in  peace  and  tranquillity,  without  incurring  the 
risk  of  many  and  great  evils.  This  Government  had  existed  for  more  than  fifty 
years,  and  under  it,  the  people  had  enjoyed  happiness  and  contentment.  There 
were,  it  is  true,  occasional  clamors  arising  from  local  causes  and  prejudices,  and  not 
from  any  real  defects  in  the  form  of  Government ;  and  he  hoped  this  amendment 
would  not  be  adopted  to  allay  such  complaints.  In  that  part  of  the  State  in  which 
he  resided,  he  had  not  heard  of  any  serious  complaint  touching  the  Right  of  Suffrage. 
The  people  there,  in  this  respect,  at  least,  were  satisfied;  why  then  adopt  this  new 
qualification  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  which  in  his  poor  opinion,  would  put  to  hazard 
the  best  interests  of  the  country,  and  even  endanger  the  liberties  of  the  people.^ 
We  are  called  upon  to  substitute  for  the  Freehold  Suffrage,  that  which,  if  it  be  not 
Universal  Suffrage,  falls  but  little  short  of  it.  It  is  proposed  that  those  who  are 
twenty-one  years  of  age,  who  bear  arms,  and  have  resided  twelve  months  in  the 
county  in  which  they  propose  to  vote,  should  have  this  right,  and  the  adoption  of  the 
principle  amounted  in  effect,  to  what  he  called  Universal  Suffrage.  He  was  told  by 
one  gentleman,  (to  the  correctness  of  whose  statistics  he  did  not,  however,  feel  him- 
self bound  to  subscribe,)  that  tlie  adoption  of  this  measure  would  add  to  the  number 
of  voters  in  the  State  more  than  60,000,  the  present  num.ber  being  somewhat  more 
than  40,000.  Thus,  the  power  of  the  Government  is  to  be  transferred  from  the  hands 
of  the  40,000,  who  have  the  deepest  interest  at  stake,  to  the  60,000,  who  have  com- 
paratively but  little  interest.  It  is  no  idle  chimera  of  the  brain,  that  the  possession  of 
land  furnishes  the  strongest  evidence  of  permanent,  common  interest  with,  and 
attachment  to,  the  community.  Much  had  been  already  said  by  gentlemen  on  both 
sides,  demonstrating  the  powerful  influence  of  local  attachment  upon  the  conduct  of 
man,  and  he  could  not  be  made  to  comprehend  how  that  passion  could  be  more  effec- 
tually brought  into  action,  than  by  a  consciousness  pf  the  fact,  that  he  was  the  owner 
of  the  spot  which  he  could  emphatically  call  his  home.  It  was  upon  this  foundation 
he  wished  to  place  the  Right  of  Suffrage.  This  was  the  best  general  standard  which 
could  be  resorted  to,  for  the  purpose  of  determining  whether  the  persons  to  be  invested 
with  the  Right  of  Suni-age,  were  such  persons  as  could  be,  consistently  with  the 
safety  and  v/ell-being  of  the  communit}'',  entrusted  with  the  exercise  of  that  right. 
Much  had  been  said  in  the  discussion  yesterday,  of  the  oppression  and  impolicy 
resulting  from  an  adirerence  to  the  present  restricted  Suffrage,  which  he  presumed 
was  intended  to  produce  some  effect  upon  public  opinion,  for  he  could  not  suppose  it 
was  intended  as  a  serious  argument  addressed  to  tliis  Committee. 

Among  other  things,  we  had  been  seriously  told  by  one  gentleman,  that  many  of 
the  citizens  of  this  Commonwealth,  non-freeholders,  labouring  under  a  sense  of  the 
great  injustice  done  them  in  witliholding  this  Right  of  Suffrage,  were  known  to 
abandon  their  native  State,  and  to  emigrate  to  other  States  in  the  Union  where  Suf- 
frage was  Universal,  that  thereby  they  might  enjoy  that  most  invaluable  right.  This 
was  a  mere  figment  of  the  fancy.  It  is  admitted  on  all  sides,  that  to  obtain  the  qualifi- 
cation of  a  voter,  the  expenditure  of  a  trifle  in  amount,  Avould  be  all  that  was  neces- 
sary. Yet,  we  are  told  that  the  persecuted  citizens  of  this  Commonwealth  are  migra- 
ting to  other  parts  of  the  Union,  to  avoid  this  odious  principle,  and  doing  this  at  an 
expense  too,  much  beyond  what  would  be  required  to  make  them  freeholders.  Gen- 
tlemen deal  in  fanciful  suggestions.  He  would  venture  to  hazard  the  opinion,  that 
no  man  that  ever  lived  in  that  portion  of  the  State  from  wliicli  he  came,  was  ever 

47 


370 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


known  to  fly  to  other  countries  to  avoid  that  or  anj?  other  kind  of  poKtieal  oppression. 
The  idea  was  a  new  one,  and  he  hoped  it  had  sprung  from  the  fruitful  imagination  of 
the  gentleman.  Let  those  wlio  indulge  in  these  fancies,  enquire  of  snch  Virginians 
as  miy  have  emigrated  to  other  States,  what  their  opinions  are  npon  this  subject. 
Will  they  be  found  to  revile  Virginia  with  curses,  becawse,  while  citizens  here,  they 
enjoyed  not  the  Riglst  of  Suffrage  ?  No.  They  would  hold  a  very  different  lan- 
guage, and  instead  of  complaints  of  tyranny  and  oppression,  they  v^'ould  speak  in; 
terms  of  the  profoundest  veneration  of  her  pohtical  institutions.  Virginia  had  not 
so  completely  fellen  from  her  high  estate,  as  some  gentlem.en  had  been  pleased  tO' 
represent;  and  if  she  had  suffered  any  deterioration,  it  did  not  resnlt  so  much  from 
her  own  councils  as  froirf  those  of  another  Government,  which  in  many  respects 
exercises  a  contrcml  over  her  destinies.  Is  it  because  she,  in  common  with  the  other 
Southern  States,  is  labouring  under  a  deplorable  commercial  depression,  that  we  are 
called  upon  to  abandon  the  old  and  established  order  of  things,  and  look  for  an 
improvement  of  our  condition  from  the  future  councils  of  the  State  Government? 
We  may  pull  down  this  Government  under  this  vain  expectation,  but  he  eiateitained 
serious  apprehensions  that  we  could  not  build  up  another  which  could  long  endure- 
No,  Sir;  the  condition  in  which  Vv^e  find  ourselves,  has  not  arisen  from,  nor  can  it  be 
improved  by,  the  policy  of  the  State  Government,  in  the  regulation  of  her  internal 
and  domestic  concerns.  It  could  not  be  effected  by  the  introduction  of  Universal 
Suffrage,  as  intended  by  tlie  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Monongalia;  for  since^ 
so  few  would  be  excluded,  he  felt  himself  justified  in  calling  it  Universal.  He 
indulged  a  sanguine  hope  tlip.t  the  Committee  was  not  prepared  to  adopt  this  bold 
innovation — he  would  say  this  dangerous  experiment,  fraught  in  his  opinion,  with 
mischief  inconceivable.  He  said  that  he  had  listened  with  much  attention  to  the 
gentleman  from  Loudoun,  (Mr.  Henderson,)  who  addressed  the  Committee  yesterday. 
He  had  expected  that  that  gentleman  would  have  furnished  some  strong  and  conclu- 
sive arguments  in  support  of  tliat  side  of  this  question  which  he  had  espoused — he 
Jiad  been  much  disappointed,  not  because  the  gentleman  did  not  possess  the  requisite 
talents  and  ingenuity  to  sustain  himself  with  ability  in  the  maintenance  of  any 
opinions  he  might  advance,  but  he  was  disposed  to  ascribe  his  disappointment  to  the 
fact,  that  the  subject  did  not  admit  of  more  conclusive  arguments.  This  Committee 
no  doubt  would  look  at  the  facts  according  to  that  gentleman's  own  statement,  unin- 
fluenced by  his  eloquent  effusions.  And  what  are  those  facts  ?  To  substitute  for  the 
freeholder,  a  class  of  sixty  thousand  people,  who  are  to  controul  the  operations  of  a 
Government,  in  the  correct  and  judicious  administration  of  which  the  forty  thousand 
freeholders,  with  the  whole  land  of  the  Commonwealth  in  their  hands,  and  of  course 
possessed  of  all  other  species  of  property,  in  an  amount  greatly  exceeding  that  held 
by  the  non-freeholders.  In  other  words,  the  great  landed  interest  is  to  be  placed  in 
the  keeping  of  a  majority  of  twenty  thousand,  who  have  no  direct  and  immediate 
connection  with  it,  and  who  even  as  it  regards  all  other  property,  have  an  interest 
infinitely  short  of  that  which  the  freeholders  possess.  If  this  principle  were  intro- 
duced in  a  Government  administered  without  the  intervention  of  public  agents,  it 
would  be  neither  more  nor  less  than  a  pure  democracy ;  and  we  have  yet  to  learn 
whether,  if  introduced  in  our  Government,  it  will  not  end  in  ruinous  consequences. 
Gentlemen  who  advocate  this  extraordinary  extension  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  are 
compelled  to  admit  the  necessity  of  fixing  upon  some  limitation.  Upon  their  own 
principles,  they  exclude  three-fourths  of  the  white  population  from  the  possession  of 
any  political  power.  According  to  their  own  favourite  theory,  we  do  not  violate  any 
existing  rights  by  depositing  this  povver  where  it  can  be  safely  lodged,  in  the  hands  of 
the  freeholders-^he  said  he  was  willing  to  accede  to  a  proposition  extending  the  Right 
of  Suffrage,  but  it  should  rest  upon,  or  be  closely  and  intimately  connected  with,  the 
ownership  of  land — that  interest  must  be  considered  in  any  extension  of  the  Right  of 
Suffrage  which  would  meet  with  his  support. 

The  gentleman  from  Loudoun  rests  the  claim  of  non-freeholders  to  the  Right  of 
Suffrage,  upon  the  military  services  which  they  are  called  upon  to  render  to  the 
country.  An  apt  reply  has  been  already  given  to  this  pretension.  Freeholders  are 
called  upon  to  render  like  military  services,  and  in  addition  thereto,  are  required  to  fur- 
nish the  sinevv's  of  war."  They  fight  by  the  side  of  non-freeholders  in  their  coun- 
try's battles,  and  almost  exclusively  furnish  the  pecuniary  means  of  sustaining  the 
Government  in  peace,  as  well  as  war.  It  v/ould  be  a  waste  of  time  to  detain  the 
Committee  longer,  in  discussing  this  subject,  with  a  view  to  expose  the  extravagance 
of  the  scheme  presented  by  the  proposition  under  consideration.  He  would  not  refer 
to  passing  events  of  tiie  day,  in  support  of  what  he  was  about  to  say,  but  he  would 
remind  gentlemen  that  history  did  not  furnish  an  example  of  a  Government  founded 
upon  Universal  Suffrage,  that  had  not  degenerated  to  a  despotism. 

A  comparison  had  been  made  between  the  other  States  of  this  Union  and  this 
State,  much  to  the  disparagement  of  Virginia.  It  was  not  his  intention  to  have 
passed  any  encomiums  upon  his  native  State.    It  did  not  become  him  to  deal  in  empty 


DEBATES    OF    THE  COXVE^^TIOX. 


or  substantial  compliments  on  her  institutions  or  her  people.  It  should  be  left  to 
others  less  interested,  to  pass  judgment  upon  these  matters — but  he  trusted  he  should 
be  excused  in  expressing  the  opinion,  that  in  most  respects  she  could  bear  a  compa- 
rison -R-itli  any  of  her  sister  States.  In  what  is  she  deficient :  In  wl.at  respect  is 
she  behind  them?  Are  iier  people  deficient  in  patriotism?  A  •  .  -  v  anting  in 
those  virtues  -vrhieh  ennoble  man  ?  Is  she  inferior  to  any  of  tht  -  -  .  liioral  cha- 
racter r  In  aJl  these  respects,  he  would  say  she  stood  pre-emiuci. i.:^:;.  With  all 
the  supposed  defects  in  iier  character,  he  would  be  unwihing  to  exchange  it  for  that 
of  any  ^other  country- — not  even  for  that  of  the  land  of  steady  habits.  Passing  in 
review  the  whole  Union,  from  3Iaine  to  its  most  Southern  border,  no  cause  of  mor- 
tification would  result  from  the  comparison.  Has  she  not  produced  a  long  line  of 
Statesmen,  and  driven  birth  to  a  galaxy  of  warriors,  whose  names  she  can  proudly 
point  to  in'refatalion  of  tiiis  charge  ?  Sir,  in  point  of  character,  she  yields  nothing 
to  her  sister  States,  and  for  this^ character  she  is  mainly  indebted  to  those  pohtical 
institutions  which it'seems  we  are  resolved  sliaU  give  place  to  a  new  order  of  things; 
so  far  at  least,  as  tliat  can  be  effected  by  the  adoption  of  the  proposition  ofiered  by  the 
gentleman  from  Monongalia. 

We  have  been  referi-ed  to  France,  by  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  and  }iave  been 
told  that  the  oppression  on  the  part  of  the  nobles  and  priesthood,  had  brought  on  tlie 
revolution  in  that  country.  We  have  no  nobles  here,  neither  have  we  any  priesthood 
practising  oppression  upon  the  people.  He  v.'as  sure  that  no  oppressions  of  that  kind 
were  practised  in  the  Eastern  part  of  the  State.  He  had  no  personal  knowledge  of 
the  actual  state  of  things  beyond  the  Blue  Ridge,  but  he  had  ahvays  believed  the 
people  of  that  recrion  of  the  State  to  be  an  honest,  virtuous,  and  intelligent  race  of 
men,  and  as  little  disposed  as  any  people  upon  earth,  to  submit  to  the  sort  of  oppress 
sion  spoken  of  by  that  crentleman.  It  is  true  that  these  oppressions  did  exist  in  that 
country,  and  did  ofive  rise  to  that  revolution  which  %vas  attended  with  sucli  horrors 
and  waste  of  human  life.  But,  Sir,  this  xery  principle — this  Universal  Sufiirage,  had  its 
fiill  share  in  bringing  upon  that  devoted  country, the  calamities  to  which  it  v^-as  exposed. 

He  was  sensible  that  his  observations  were  of  an  extremely  desultory  character. 
He  had  appeared  before  the  Committee  as  he  had  before  stated,  ur-expectedly  to  him- 
self, and  his  principal  object  was  to  occupy  a  small  portion  of  its  time,  that  others 
who  he  knew  could  do  greater  justice  to  the  subject,  might  have  an  opportunitv  oi" 
submitting  their  views.  He  was  sorry  that  he  had  detained  the  Committee  so  Ions'-., 
He  hoped  the  Committee  would  reject  the  proposition  under  consideration.  If.  how-^ 
ever,  the  proposition  could  be  modified  or  amended,  so  as  to  accord  wiui  his.  views,  he 
would  vote  for  it:  otherwise,  he  could  not.  He  was  not  disposed  to  trust  to  specula- 
tive theories.  He  begged  leave,  however,  before  he  resumed  his  seat,  to  ask  the 
Committee  to  advert  to  the  manner  in  which  our  popular  elections  were  conducted, 
and  he  would  appeal  to  them  if  we  were  not  placed  in  an  enviable  situation  in  that 
respect,  compared  to  the  condition  of  tliose  States  in  the  Union  where  Sufirage  was 
more  extended  than  in  this.  We  hear  nothing  of  those  commotions  in  this  State 
which  frequently  occur  at  the  elections  in  other  parts  of  the  United  States,  where 
Universal  Sufirage,  or  something  approaching  nearly  to  it,  prevails.  He  had  been 
for  many  years  familiar  with  the  manner  in  which  the  elections  in  this  State  had  been 
conducted,  as  he  supposed  every  other  member  of  this  body  had  been,  and  had  no 
doubt  he  should  be  sustained  by  all,  when  he  said  that  Virginia  in  this  respect  would 
bear  an  honorable  comparison  with  any  other  part  of  the  world.  No  popular  elections 
were  conducted  with  more  respect  for  the  laws,  or  could  be  conducted  with  more 
regard  to  decorum.  If  we  add  sb:ty  thousand  to  the  number  of  voters,  we  must 
necessarily  change  tlie  mode  of  votmo'.  He  was  attached  to  the  viva  voce  manner 
of  voting,  because  it  was  the  most  honest  and  manljr  mode.  Extend  tlie  Riffht  of 
Suffirage,  and  you  must  resort  to  the  ballot-box :  otherwise,  these  voters  cannot  act 
independently — they  must  have  the  means  of  concealing  their  votes.  That  change, 
as  simple  as  it  might  appear  to  some,  in  his  estimation,  would  let  in  a  fiood  of  fraud 
and  corruption  which  would  end  in  tlie  destruction  of  every  thing  lilie  honesty  and 
independence  in  our  elections. 

Mr.  Doddridge  proposed  that  in  taking  the  vote,  the  names  of  the  Committee 
should  be  called  over. 

The  Chair  in  reply,  remarked,  that  it  was  not  strictly  in  order,  in  Committee  of  the 
Whole,  to  call  over  names.  He  begged  to  make  the  suorgestion,  that  the  divisions  on 
questions  in  Committee  were  to  be  regarded  only  in  the  ifght  of  comparisons  of  views; 
and  when  the  names  are  announced,  such  is  the  pride  of  "opinion,  that  members  might 
be  inclined  afterwards  to  adhere  to  opinions,  which  tliey  might  have  been  disposed  to 
change,  but  for  their  premature  committal  before  the  "public  eve.  He  merely  made 
the  sugorestion.    The  Committee  might  take  it  for  what  it  was  "worth. 

The  Chairman  rose  to  put  the  question,  when  Mr.  Bayly  addressed  the  Chair  : 

Mr.  Cliairman, — Before  you  put  the  question  on  the  amendment,  I  wish  to  express 
my  opinion  in  favor  of  extendmg  the  Pvight  of  Suffrao'e,  wliich  is  no  v.-  under  consi- 


372 


DEBA.TES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


deration.  I  am  not  in  the  habit  of  apologizing,  when  I  consider  it  to  be  my  duty  to 
address  this  Committee,  and  I  shall  not  do  it  now.  I  will  say,  that  although  1  did  in- 
tend to  speak  on  the  proposition  now  under  discussion,  a,t  some  other  time,  and  ex- 
pected that  other  gentlemen  would  have  occupied  your  attention  on  this  day;  yet,  as 
the  question  is  about  to  be  taken,  and  as  my  constituents  are  among  the  foremost  in 
the  call  for  this  Convention,  for  the  express  wish  of  having  the  Right  of  Suffrage  ex- 
tended, I  owe  it  to  myself  and  to  them,  to  give  the  reasons  why  1  shall  vote  lor  the 
amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Monongalia. 

In  the  year  1807,  the  people  of  Accomack  petitioned  the  General  Assembly  to  call 
a  Convention,  to  extend  the  Right  of  Suffrage  to  other  persons  than  freeholders,  and 
to  redress  grievances  existing  under  the  Constitution.  At  that  time,  very  few  free- 
holders, in  the  other  four  counties,  which  I  represent  in  part,  wished  for  such  a  mea- 
sure. But  at  this  time,  with  the  great  change  of  public  opinion  that  has  taken  place 
in  these  counties,  and  the  almost  unanimous  wish  of  the  freeholders  of  the  county  of 
Accomack,  there  can  be  no  doubt,  but  a  very  large  majority  of  the  freeholders  of  the 
district,  are  in  favor  of  extending  the  Right  of  Suffrage  to  others  than  land-holders. 

When  I  was  elected  to  this  Convention,  I  considered  it  to  be  my  duty  to  inform 
myself  of  the  alterations  and  amendments  to  the  existing  Constitution,  which  the 
people  in  every  part  of  the  State  demanded,  and  to  correct  these  evils  in  the  new 
Constitution,  And  when  I  shall  frankly  state  to  this  Committee  some  of  the  great 
amendments  in  the  Constitution,  which  my  constituents  wish  us  to  make,  and  as  I 
most  cordially  unite  with  them,  in  the  hope,  that  those  improvements  will  be  made, 
I  axn  not  to  be  considered  a  leveller,  a  revolutionist,  or  a  radical  reformer  :  such  a 
character  does  not  belong  to  me,  it  is  far  from  me.  A  sense  of  duty  points  to  me,  to 
pursue  that  course,  which  will  lead  to  the  correction  of  the  evils  complained  of  in  every 
part  of  the  State ;  which  I  hope  and  expect,  will  be  so  amended  by  the  Constitution 
we  shall  submit  to  the  people,  that  tliey  will  cheerfully  ratify  it. 

If  I  thought  that  the  adoption  of  this  amendment  would  endanger  the  safety  of 
property,  or  would  put  power  in  the  hands  of  those,  who  would  in  any  manner  abuse 
it,  I  would  not  vote  for  the  amendment,  but  would  give  it  my  most  decided  disapproba- 
tion. It  may  be  dangerous,  perhaps,  v/here  the  non-freeholders  are  destitute  of  pro- 
perty and  j)rinciple.  Such  is  not  the  character  nor  condition  of  the  people  among 
whom  I  live,  who  were  among  the  first  to  favor  the  extension  of  the  Right  of  Suf- 
frage, and  are  now  so  unanimous  for  it.  It  may  be,  that  the  peculiar  situation  of  that 
people  ;  the  difficulty  for  all  to  acquire  a  freehold,  and  the  denial  of  that  right,  to  those 
who  have  a  freehold  less  than  twenty-five  acres  of  land,  may  be  a  great  cause  in 
creating  that  unanimity,  which  at  this  time  exists  among  them  upon  this  question. 
They  have  not  the  facilities  of  acquiring  freeholds,  that  exist  in  other  parts  of  the 
State,  to  qualify  themselves  to  be  voters,  where  there  is  so  much  waste  and  useless 
land.  If  a  man  could  by  law  vote  in  the  county  where  he  resides,  upon  the  requisite 
freehold,  situated  in  any  other  county  in  the  State,  he  might  purchase  a  freehold  in 
the  West,  where  the  rocks  and  mountains  cover  half  their  counties,  for  one  or  two 
dollars. 

Penned  up  in  a  peninsula,  every  one  who  wishes  to  obtain  a  vote,  cannot  realize 
hat  blessing  under  the  present  system,  however  much  he  may  prize  the  privilege, 
whatever  may  be  his  standing  or  even  his  means.  The  territory  is  small,  and  the 
tracts  of  twenty-five  acres,  which  are  necessary  to  make  the  qualification,  are  not 
easily  to  be  obtained  at  any  price ;  but,  although  the  qualification  of  electors  are  thus 
confined  to  the  soil,  the  respectability  of  the  inhabitants  is  not  exclusively  derived 
from  that  source.  I  have  never  believed,  that  tlie  qualification  ought  to  depend  on 
the  right  in  the  soil.  No  such  principle  is  believed  to  be  correct  among  the  people 
with  whom  I  live.  They  do  not  draw  their  subsistence  solely  from  the  land.  A  great 
proportion  of  them  are  worthy  mechanics,  and  many  earn  their  bread  by  ploughing 
the  ocean.  It  is  not  easy  for  such  men,  on  their  first  entering  into  life,  to  lay  up  2  or 
$  300,  to  purchase  the  requisite  freehold,  to  qualify  them  to  vote.  However  easily 
that  miglit  be  obtained  in  other  parts  of  the  State,  having  vast  mountains  of  worthless 
land,  where  fifty  acres  may  be  acquired  by  a  week's  labour,  enterprize  and  industry 
cannot  always  be  so  soon  rewarded  in  a  dense  population,  where  land  is  in  great  de- 
mand, and  is  of  high  value.  I  have  never  considered  the  possession  of  a  freehold,  as 
the  best  evidence  and  test  of  permanent  and  common  interest  with,  and  attachment 
to,  the  community.  I  believe,  that  many  situations  and  circumstances  in  life  furnish 
tests  as  certain. 

The  Bill  of  Rights  declares,  "  that  election  of  members  to  the  General  Assembly 
ought  to  be  free,  and  that  all  men  having  sufficient  evidence  of  permanent  common 
interest  with,  and  attachment  to,  the  community,  have  the  Right  of  Suffrage."  And 
yet  so  much  has  been  said  on  the  necessity  of  disfranchising  the  soldier  !  No  such  ne- 
cessity applies  to  the  Eastern  Shore.  There  it  is  considered  the  sacred  duty  of  all  to 
protect  their  country  against  any  invading  enemy.  During  the  two  wars  in  which 
this  country  has  been  engaged^  there  were  no  exempts,  nor  was  there  one  example  of 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CON\^ENTION. 


373 


any  man  shrinking  from  his  duty ;  all  rushed  to  the  post  of  danger  the  moment  the 
alarm  was  given,  poor  and  rich.  The  most  aged  was  found  quite  as  ready  as  the 
.)'-oung.  No  man  was  then  disqualified  from  the  protection  of  the  property  of  the  free- 
holder ;  for,  all  showed  that  they  had  a  common  interest  with,  and  attachment  to,  the 
community. 

It  is  said,  that  the  soldier  cannot  be  trusted — the  militia-man  cannot  be  trusted, 
without  he  has  a  freehold.  This  is  a  doctrine  which  ought  not  to  be  entertained. 
Compare  these  objections — a  more  patriotic  band  of  men  never  entered  the  army  of 
Washington,  than  the  9th  Virginia  Continental  Regiment— they  fought  by  his  side  at 
Brandywine,  German  town,  Trenton,  Princeton  and  Monmouth,  and  their  valor  is  v/ell 
known  to  the  venerable  President  of  this  Convention;  and  I  rejoice  that  he  has  not 
forsaken  the  soldiers  of  the  revolution,  for  they  never  have  forsaken  him.  But,  Sir, 
the  indejrendence  of  the  country  being  obtained,  they  disband  themselves  and  return 
home  in  beggary:  and  these  men  who  have  saved  the  Constitution  of  their  country, 
by  that  very°Constitution,  are  expelled  from  the  polls  to  make  way  for  some  old  tory: 
they  have  no  right  to  be  there,  because  they  have  sheicn  no  i^ermanent  interest  in,  and 
attachment  to,  the  community.  Sir,  this  scene  has  occurred  in  every  old  county  in 
the  State,  and  in  many  is  yearly  witnessed.  Such  things  roused  the  people  to  com- 
plain, and  induced  them  to  vote  for  a  Convention — I  mean  the  freeholders.  They 
cannot,  they  will  not  believe,  that  such  aged  and  virtuous  men  ought  not  to  partici- 
pate in  the  elective  franchise,  under  the  very  Government  that  their  valor  established. 

Is  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Monongalia,  a  project  of  the  non-free- 
holders.^ No,  Sir;  it  is  the  wish  of  the  freeholders  themselves,  to  restore  to  the  non- 
freeholders  those  rights  which  they  ought  always  to  have  had.  If  21,890  to  16,637, 
gives  any  expression  of  their  will,  they  have  said  that  they  are  desirous  to  abandon 
the  distinction  they  now  hold. 

If  this  Government  belongs  to  the  freeholders,  it  is  they  who  say  we  are  willing  to 
part  with  this  exclusive  power,  and  share  it  with  our  brethren.  The  freeholders  pos- 
sessing the  Government,  and  the  sovereignt}'  being  in  the  people,  and  the  freeholders 
desire  that  the  rest  of  their  fellow-citizens  shall  be  admitted  to  participate  in  political 
power — what  good  reason  can,  or  has  been  assigned  for  this  Convention  to  oppose 
that  desire It  is  not  the  non-freeholders  merely:  it  is  the  freeholders  themselves, 
who  complain  of  the  existing  state  of  things.  I  have  never  heard  the  non-freeholders 
half  so  loud  to  call  for  this  Convention,  as  the  freeholders  themselves. 

It  was  from  the  most  thickly  settled  part  of  the  county  of  Accomack,  and  from 
those  who  reside  near  the  Maryland  line,  that  the  demand  to  extend  the  Right  of  Suf- 
frage was  most  earnest.  Many  of  the  freeholders  have  cut  up  their  farms  already 
into  small  tenements,  to  give  to  their  sons  the  right  of  voting ;  so  that  they  can  lop 
off  no  more,  without  depriving  themselves  of  that  privilege.  And  those  who  reside 
in  the  north  of  the  county,  having  a  constant  intercourse  with  the  people  of  the  State 
of  Maryland,  trading  to  their  town,  they  become  acquainted  vvith  their  institutions, 
and  they  see  how  the  extended  Right  of  Suffrage  operates  there,  and  finding  no  evil 
resulting  from  it,  consequently  they  are  anxious  for  the  change  in  their  own  State. 

Farms  are  divided  and  sub-divided  so  often,  that  even  that  cannot  be  further  done 
to  any  advantage,  so  as  to  leave  a  support  to  a  family  practising  the  greatest  industry 
and  frugality.  The  farm  being  now  so  small  that  it  can  only  be  given  to  one  son, 
and  generally  the  first  born,  he  remains  at  home  with  his  father — cultivates  the  land — 
supports  him  in  his  old  age — and  at  his  death  inherits  the  freehold.  The  other  sons 
are  sent  from  home,  generally  to  the  towns  in  Marjdand  and  Pennsylvania,  to  learn 
useful  mechanical  trades ;  they  return,  they  will  not  leave  the  view  of  the  smoke  of 
their  father's  dwelling;  the  old  man,  perhaps,  can  cut  ©ff  an  acre  of  land  from  his  lit- 
tle farm,  or  purchase  one  in  the  neighbourhood,  on  which  is  erected  a  ship  yard  or  a 
blacksmith  shop — these  young  men  enter  with  great  skill  and  industry  on  their  trades, 
and  very  soon  marry :  these  useful  mechanics,  having  returned  to  your  State,  full 
of  patriotic  love  for  this  Commonwealth,  and  as  much  attached  to  her  interests  as  the 
freeholder.  Yet,  you  are  going  to  say  to  them,  in  the  Constitution  you  are  now 
making,  '■'  Young  man,  you  have  returned  to  your  countr}-.  with  a  perfect  knowledge 
of  your  useful  profession,  you  are  raising  up  a  family  of  great  promise  to  the  welfare 
of  Virginia,  but  you  get  your  living  by  throwing  the  broad-axe,  the  sledge-hammer, 
or  the  saw,  you  cannot  be  trusted,  you  have  not  that  attachment  to  your  country  as 
your  oldest  brother,  who  has  remained  at  home,  and  followed  the  plough-handles;  he 
must  be  trusted  to  vote  for  himself  and  you." 

Gentlemen  say  the  non-freeholderr,  do  not  wish  this  privilege  to  be  extended  to 
them.  I  know  of  no  such  description  of  men  ;  and  if  there  be  many  of  that  opinion 
in  this  ancient  Commonwealth,  they  are  fit  subjects  for  a  King.  A  free  man  who  is 
willing  to  be  governed  by  laws,  and  voluntarily  prefers  to  relinquish  to  other  men  the 
authority  to  elect  the  Lav.^giver,  is  a  slave  already,  and  he  is  not  a  fit  member  of  a 
Republic. 


374 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Much  has  been  said  about  confusion  at  elections.  I  do  not  believe,  if  we  extend 
the  Right  of  Suffrage  as  far  as  any  of  us  wish,  that  there  is  danger  on  this  score.  Our 
people  are  not  of  tiiat  riotous  character.  I  have  never  seen  any  confusion  in  that 
part  of  the  country  where  I  live,  at  elections.  I  have  never  seen  nor  heard  of  any 
confusion  in  any  part  of  Virginia  at  elections.  But  reject  this  proposition,  and  let  the 
old  restrictions  and  disqualiiications  continue,  and  you  will  not  be  long  v»ithout  con- 
fusion, and  great  confusion,  at  the  polls,  and  from  the  polls.  You  vmst  show  a  dis- 
position to  redress  the  evils  of  which  the  people  complain,  or  you  must  expect  that 
their  complaints  will  assume  a  louder  tone.  But  suppose  the  people  shall  ever  be- 
come corrupt,  and  their  own  worst  enemies  at  elections,  (I  entertain  no  fear  that 
they  ever  will,)  and  that  riot  and  bloodshed  should  be  the  consequence.  There  is  a 
remedy  for  this,  and  a  simple  one  :  it  is  to  lay  off  the  counties  into  small  electoral  dis- 
tricts, and  you  prevent  all  danger  of  riot;  (and  as  a  gentleman  near  me  suggests,)  let 
the  elections  be  held  on  the  same  day  in  ail  the  districts,  and  that  v/ill  prevent  large 
collections  of  people  at  one  place,  and  consequently  prevent  confusion.  No,  Sir,  there 
is  no  such  danger.  Have  your  people  ever  shown  a  disposition  for  insurrection 
Have  you  ever  seen  or  heard  of  a  disposition  am.ong  them  to  riot  and  insurrection  ^ 
Have  you  ever  seen  or  heard  of  a  disposition  among  them  to  rise  in  arms  against  the 
General  Government although  at  times  they  have  been  so  much  excited  against  the 
administration  of  that  Government.  They  can  be  trusted  ;  they  may  with  the  utmost 
safety,  even  if  you  extend  to  them  the  utmost  limits  of  the  elective  power,  he  trusted. 

My  worthy  friend  from  Richmond,  (Mr.  Nicholas,)  (and  I  use  that  expression  only 
in  reference  to  old  and  tried  friends,)  tells  us  about  revolutionary  France,  and  the 
evils  which  grew  out  of  it,  in  that  country.  Much  good  has  resulted  to  the  people 
from  that  revolution.  Why,  Sir,  it  may  have  happened,  that  the  heads  of  one  or  two 
contemptible  nobles  may  have  fallen  into  the  sack  of  the  executioner,  brought  on  by 
their  own  vices  and  treason,  but  nobody  lamented  their  fate.  The  people  were  bound 
down  in  chains,  which  the  Government  refused,  not  only  to  knock  off,  but  to  slacken  : 
they  were  broken  and  torn  asunder ;  and  like  the  bursting  of  a  volcano,  desolated  all 
around.  But,  is  that  the  state  of  things  here.^  Is  there  any  monarch,  or  rich  noble- 
man, to  throw  his  gold  among  the  people  at  our  elections,  to  promote  the  utmost  con- 
fusion and  riot  ?  Let  us  not  take  for  our  guide  facts  recorded  by  pensioned  authors 
during  the  French  revolution,  and  pretend  that  what  has  happened  to  that  country 
and  its  institutions,  will  happen  to  our  institutions,  but  rather  take  for  authority  the 
Whigs  of  this  country.  Jefferson  saw  the  scenes  at  the  commencement  of  the  revo- 
lution ;  he  was  Minister  of  the  United  States  to  France.  Was  he  the  enemy  of  Uni- 
versal Suffrage.?  No,  Sir  ;  on  the  contrary,  the  longer  he  lived,  the  more  he  was  at- 
tached to  it,  even  unto  death. 

Did  the  sight  of  the  scenes  of  that  revolution,  even  under  Robespierre,  cure  the 
venerable  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  (Mr.  Monroe,)  he  also  was  Minister  to  France, 
from  his  attachment  to  the  rights  of  man.?  He  has  told  you  that  there  is  nothing  to 
fear  from  extending  Suffrage  in  this  country.  Ours  are  a  different  kind  of  people,  and 
on  them  I  place  all  my  confidence.  They  will  not  break  out  in  mobs  of  sanguinary 
violence  :  they  only  ask  their  rights  as  freemen,  and  for  this  purpose  the  amendment 
is  offered.  I  am  desirous  to  know  wliy  it  is  that  certain  parts  of  the  Common v/ealth 
adjacent  to  other  States  where  Suffrage  is  enjoyed  to  the  fullest  extent,  are  all  in  favor 
of  this  great  change  ?  I  mea.n  the  freeholders  in  those  districts.  You  see  the  South- 
West  part  of  the  State  vWiich  joins  Tennessee  and  Kentucky;  the  North-West  which 
joins  Ohio  and  Pennsylvania;  and  the  North-East  which  joins  Maryland,  all  anxious 
for  this  change.  Gan  it  be,  that  all  the  wisdom  lies  in  the  centre  of  the  State  ?  The 
people  of  those  parts  of  the  State  to  which  I  have  referred,  have  witnessed  and  know 
how  this  thing  operates  upon  their  neighbours;  and  are,  with  very  few  exceptions,  in 
favor  of  extending  this  right  to  freemen.  The  result  of  the  trial  is  conclusive.  We 
are  not  making  an  experiment,  we  are  following  those  already  made.  Yes,  the  expe- 
riment is  not  to  be  made ;  the  plan  has  been  tried  by  other  States ;  and  the  result  is, 
that  their  population  and  prosperity  has  most  rapidly  increased,  and  they  prove  that 
man  can  govern  himself. 

The  question  of  Internal  Improvement  in  this  State,  has  soijiehow  got  into  this  de- 
bate— how,  I  do  not  comprehend  exactly.  I  am  in  favor  of  Internal  Improvement  to 
a  limited  extent,  with  the  aid  only  of  the  fund  set  apart  for  that  purpose ;  and  my 
main  reason  for  having  gone  with  the  West  on  the  subject  of  their  roads  and  division 
of  counties,  has  been  my  pride — yes.  Sir,  my  pride  as  a  Virginian.  _  I  believe  it  is 
our  interest  and  duty  to  hold  out  and  to  give  every  inducement  to  emigrants  from  the 
Northern  States  and  from  Europe,  to  settle  that  part  of  tlie  country,  and  to  retain  our 
own  population  at  home.  We  have  seen  Virginia  fall  from  being  the  first  State  of 
the  Union,  to  that  of  the  third  ;  and  without  great  exertions  on  our  part,  she  Vv-ill  fall 
still  lower.  I  look  to  the  West  as  my  hope,  to  see  her  maintain  her  present  station 
in  these  States.  Extend  the  elective  franchise,  make  your  system  of  Government 
liberal  and  republican,  and  you  will  fill  Western  Virginia  with  inhabitants,  and  all 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


375 


parts  of  your  State  with  a  more  dense  population.  The  Right  of  Suffrage  has  hitherto 
been  confined  to  freeholders  exclusively.  V^T'ill  any  one  give  me  a  reason  why  it 
should  be  required  of  a  voter  for  members  of  the  General  Assembl}'-,  when  the  same 
requisite  is  not  demanded  of  those  who  fill  the  high  departments  of  the  State  ?  Your 
Generals,  your  Governors,  your  Judges,  your  Treasurer,  your  Auditor,  are  not  re- 
quired to  be  freeholders.  They  are  not  required  to  possess  this  emblem  of  "  perma- 
nent, common  interest  with,  and  attachment  to,  the  community."  That  evidence  is 
exacted  alone  from  the  native  born  citizen,  the  honest  planter,  when  he  goes  to  the 
polls.  So  also  in  the  Federal  Government.  The  President,  the  Senators,  the  Repre- 
sentatives, the  Judges,  and  all  others  from  them  downward  are  placed  in  office,  with- 
out enquiring  whether  they  are  freeholders  or  not.  Can  any  man  give  a  plausible 
reason,  why  a  man  is  fit  to  fill  all  those  high  offices,  and  not  fit  to  come  to  the  polls.? 
If  you  can  trust  men  in  all  high  offices  without  an  interest  in  the  soil,  why  cannot 
you  trust  a  voter  also,  without  that  interest  in  the  land?  I  will  not  reply  to  epithets 
that  gentlemen  have  used  on  both  sides — such  as  aristocrat,  republican,  &c.  I  may 
be  called  either  :  those  who  know  me  best,  are  republicans  by  acts  and  deeds,  and  not 
by  words.  They  have  confided  their  interest  to  me,  and,  I  trust,  it  will  not  be  abused. 
Make  a  Constitution  that  the  people  will  gladly  approve — redress  all  the  evils  com- 
plained of  by  the  old  Constitution,  and  you  may  call  it  aristocracy,  oligarchy  and 
every  thing  but  a  Republic;  yet  the  people  will  ratif}'^  it. 

In  Virginia,  epithets  have  lost  their  power;  I  will  vote  for  such  a  Constitution  as 
my  constituents  wish;  nor  will  I  concede  to  my  friend  from  Richmond  (Mr.  Nicho- 
las,) that  he  and  those  who  are  with  him  on  this  question,  are  the  exclusive  friends 
of  the  people;  I  know  of  no  act  they  have  done,  which  entitles  them  to  use  the 
phraseology/,  "  JVe  the  friends  of  the  people.'''  If  his  friend  meant,  that  they  were  the 
friends  of  the  freeholders,  he  will  find  that  a  majority  of  the  freeholders  are  in  favor 
of  this  change ;  and  if  he  meant  that  they  were  the  friends  of  the  non-freeholders,  I 
suspect  that  the  friendship  will  not  be  accepted. 

The  gentleman  has  told  you,  that  he  was  Attorney  General  for  twenty  years.  Was 
this  said  to  give  his  opinions  greater  weight  with  the  community  ?  I  know  the  gen- 
tleman was  Attorney  General,  and  Virginia  never  had  a  better ;  and  I  know  also, 
that  I  aided  to  put  liim  there.  At  the  age  of  twenty-two,  I  voted  for  the  gentleman, 
(who  was  then  about  the  same  age,)  and  I  have  never  repented  for  so  doing,  because 
I  have  never  had  cause  for  such  repentance.  At  that  time,  I  knew  him  only  from 
report,  whicli  was  strong  in  his  favor ;  a  young  man  of  great  expectations  to  them 
who  knew  him  ;  but  I  had  a  stronger  reason ;  he  was  the  son  of  that  old  revolutionary 
and'genuine  Whig,  R-obert  Carter  Nicholas,  Treasurer  of  Virginia;  and  a  scion  from 
that  pure  stock,  might  safely  be  trusted  in  any  station  he  desired,  for  he  would  honor 
it.  I  cannot  admit  that  he  and  those  who  act  with  him  on  this  question,  are  the  only 
friends  of  the  people;  if  so,  v/hy  did  he  cease  to  be  the  agent,  the  officer,  the  repre- 
sentative of  the  people,  I  will  not  say  servant,  I  dislike  the  word.?  I  trust  my  friend 
will  excuse  me,  if  I  recommend  to  him  to  strike  out  all  that  part  of  his  speech  rela- 
ting to  Bank  stock,  lest  his  friends,  the  people,  enquire  what  ofice  he  nov^^  holds.* 

Another  idea  the  gentleman  suggested — perhaps  I  mistake  him — Ihope  I  do — I  take 
no  notes.  He  told  the  Committee,  I  think,  that  no  reliance  was  to  be  placed  on  men, 
who  hold  Bank  stock;  that  the  man  who  holds  Bank  stock,  is  net  to  be  trusted  like  a 
man  who  stands  upon  the  soil.  Sir,  in  that  opinion  I  agree.  Yes,  Sir,  I  agree  with  the 
gentleman — the  Bank  stock-man  may  sell  out  to-day  and  be  gone  to-morrov/ ;  and  a  man 
who  stands  on  his  oxon  land,  is  more  entitled  to  confidence,  than  he  whose  estate  is  in 
Bank  stock  ;  a  Bank  stock-man  is  not  a  Virginia  man.  The  Bank  stock-man  now.  is  not 
like  the  Bank  stock-man  Avhen  the  old  Constitution  was  made.  The  people,  at  that 
time,  when  they  v^'-ent  to  the  Treasury,  of  which  Robert  Carter  Nicholas  held  the  key, 
received  hard  money  and  gold,  and  would  be  content  even  witli  cut  money,  bits  and 
half  bits.  There  was  then  in  the  Treasury  the  old  English  guinea,  and  the  Spanish 
doubloon,  half  joes  and  pistoles.  But  now  they  are  all  gone,  and  with  them,  the 
golden  American  Eagle,  with  all  its  brood,  has  taken  flig-ht  to  a  distant  land.  Go 
now  to  the  Treasury,  and  what  do  you  get?  To  be  sure  the  paper  currency  is  good 
now,  but  few  there  are  who  know  how  long  it  will  be  good. 

Virginia  before  ]ias  had  a  paper  currency  ;  the  old  continental  paper  money  was 
good,  when  first  issued  ;  and  although  it  fell  to  nothing,  the  people  even  now  keep  it, 
venerate,  and  revere  it,  and  think  it  a  great  blessing  that  it  was  made,  and  so  it  was  : 
for  it  carried  this  Commonwealth  triumphantly  through  the  revolution,  and  thus  ren- 
dered a  blessing  on  the  country.  Not  so  with  all  the  Bank  paper — the  paper  money  of 
the  present  day  ;  for,  some  Bank  paper  has  become  so  M'orthless,  as  to  be  of  no  other 
use  than  to  be  given  to  the  children. 

*  Mr.  Nicholas  is  President  of  the  Farmers'  Bank  of  Virginia.  The  money  of  the  Treasury  is  kept 
in  that  Bank  and  in  the  Bank  of  Virginia. 


376 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


I  know  the  time  has  been  when  the  people  of  the  United  States  might  be  caught 
by  names,  and,  if  my  friend  from  Richmond  will  take  it  in  good  humour,  I  would  re- 
quest him  and  his  associates,  if  ever  they  should  happen  to  be  put  upon  a  Central 
Committee,  and  should  send  printed  tickets  to  some  remote  parts  of  the  State  upon 
the  supposition  that  the  people  could  not  write,  not  to  head  the  tickets  the  "  People's 
Ticket,"  the  "American  System,"  "Internal  Improvements,"  "Rail  Roads;"  for  it 
will  give  their  friends  trouble  to  cut  such  trash  off.  For,  I  can  assure  him,  that  in 
some  parts  of  the  State,  this  will  be  absolutely  necessary.  Such  titles  are  mere  chaff. 
The  people  are  not  now  to  be  deceived  by  names  any  longer,  nor  prevailed  on  to  agree 
to  a  restriction  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage  to  the  freehold.  You  may  christen  the  new 
Constitution  by  whatever  name  you  will ;  if  you  do  not  liberally  extend  the  PJght  of 
Suffrage,  and  reform  other  great  abuses  which  has  got  into  the  Government  under 
the  old  Constitution,  they  will  not  vote  for  the  new  Constitution,  but  will  have 
another  Convention,  which  will  do  what  this  Convention  ought  to  do. 

Another  cause  of  dissatisfaction,  is  the  personal  labour  exacted  of  the  non-freehol- 
ders, in  making  and  repairing  the  roads  of  the  Commonwealth.  My  constituents  do 
not  of  themselves  complain  of  the  labour,  for  it  is  scarcely  felt  in  the  county  :  the 
roads  there  are  kept  in  repair  by  one  day's  labour  in  the  year,  and  are  the  best  roads 
in  the  State ;  but  their  complaint  is  of  the  principle.  You  exclude  them  from  the 
polls,  and  you  compel  them  to  labour  on  the  road,  against  the  wish  of  21,896  freehol- 
ders, who  voted  for  a  call  of  this  Convention,  to  1G,G37,  who  voted  to  continue  this 
oppressive  system ;  and  if  you  send  a  Constitution  to  the  people  with  such  oppression 
not  redressed,  how  long  do  you  expect  the  people  will  suffer  them  to  remain  so  ?  You 
have  to  insert  a  clause  in  the  Constitution  you  are  now  making,  providing  for  the 
mode  and  povv^er  of  future  amendments.  After  that,  is  it  expected  that  this  odious 
restriction  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage  will  remain  in  the  Constitution  three  years  And 
if  you  do  not  engraft  such  a  provision  as  to  amendments,  you  will  have  another  Con- 
vention in  less  than  three  years.  Sir,  is  it  not  wise — is  it  not  politic — to  give  up  some- 
thing to  the  feelings  and  wishes  of  the  people — and  if  you  please  so  to  call  it,  even 
to  their  prejudices  and  ignorance And  he  is  an  unwise  statesman  who  does  not  con- 
sult even  the  prejudices  of  the  people  of  this  country.  We  are  here  for  that  very 
purpose  to  consult  their  wishes  and  opinions,  and  make  a  Constitution  accordingly. 
It  is  not  expected  that  we  can  make  the  best  Constitution  that  can  be  made,  but  it  is 
expected  that  we  shall  make  such  a  one  as  our  constituents  wish,  and  is  suited  to  the 
times  and  to  them,  to  the  end  that  they  shall  be  prosperous  and  happy  under  it.  We 
have  only  to  make  the  changes  which  are  asked  for  by  our  sovereigns,  the  people,  and 
they  will  be  grateful,  and  we  shall  be  honoured  with  their  approbation.  Mr.  Chair- 
man, I  have  a  very  great  desire  that  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Monon- 
galia should  prevail.  It  will  be  hke  oil  thrown  on  the  troubled  ocean.  It  will  calm 
the  agitation  of  the  public  mind,  which  is  now  so  alarming.  I  hope  this  debate  will 
be  extended,  I  wish  to  hear  what  the  people  of  every  part  of  the  State  think  and 
wish  upon  this  subject.  There  are  gentlemen  in  this  Committee,  who  are  not  accus- 
tomed to  speak,  but  have  the  strongest  intellect.  I  think  it  is  their  duty  to  cast  light 
upon  this  question,  and  state  particularly  the  Avishes  of  the  people  with  whom  tney 
live.  I  have  endeavoured  to  discharge  this  duty,  although  not  to  my  satisfaction.  I 
have  heard  eloquence,  and  great  eloquence  in  this  House.  But  there  is  in  this  As- 
sembly, another  class  of  members,  besides  the  eloquent  speakers.  I  refer  to  the 
silent  members,  who,  I  believe,  know  more  what  the  people  wish  upon  this  occasion, 
and  feel  more  for  what  the  people  complain  of,  than  the  eloquent  gentlemen  who  have 
so  often  occupied  the  floor.  To  them  I  look  with  hope,  and  I  trust  I  shall  not  look  in 
vain.    I  repeat  my  desire  that  the  debate  should  be  continued, 

Mr.  M'Coy  said,  that  under  the  present  state  of  things  he  vi^ould  not  vote  for  this 
amendment.  He  would  not  say  he  would  not  vote  for  it  under  another  state  of  things. 
It  would  depend  upon  what  basis  of  Representation  would  be  adopted.  If  the  white 
population  should  be  taken,  he  would  be  willing  to  restrict  the  Right  of  Suffrage ;  but 
if  the  basis  of  property  be  taken,  then  he  would  be  wilhng  to  extend  the  right  of  voting 
to  more  persons,  for  the  purpose  of  balancing  that  influence  of  wealth  which  might  be 
infused  into  our  system.  He  made  this  remark  to  obviate  any  charge  of  inconsistency 
which  might  be  hereafter  brought  against  him. 

Mr.  Scott  asked,  what  would  be  the  condition  of  any  who  have  the  qualification,  if 
they  have  not  paid  their  tax.  If  he  who  has  the  property,  and  is  assessed,  should  be 
returned  on  the  pay  books  as  delinquent,  will  he  not  be  entitled  to  vote.^  If  the  man 
who  is  not  assessed  in  any  property  may  vote,  will  not  the  man  who  is  assessed,  but 
who  has  not  paid  his  tax,  be  entitled  to  his  vote.^ 

Mr.  Wilson  said,  it  was  his  intention  to  include  those  who  were  not  assessed  for  any 
tax,  provided  they  were  not  subject  to  any  of  the  disqualifications  which  were  speci- 
fied. But  as  to  the  man  who  has  property,  and  is  fairly  assessed,  yet  refuses  to  pay, 
he  evinces  such  a  disregard  for  the  community,  that  he  ought  to  be  excluded  from  tlie 
privilege  of  giving  his  vote. 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


377 


Mr.  Morgan  of  Monongalia,  then  rose  and  addressed  the  Committee  as  follows  : 

Mr.  Chairman;  Before  the  question  be  put  to  the  Committee,  I  wish  to  submit  a 
few  remarks  in  favor  of  the  adoption  of  the  amendment  now  under  consideration. 

The  subject  is  very  properly  deemed  by  every  member  of  this  body,  one  of  great 
importance.  It  involves  the  sovereign  rights  of  the  people — rights  too,  v/hich  when 
restrained,  ought  to  be  restrained  with  great  care.  We  are  told  by  able  writers  on  the 
subject,  that  the  right  of  voting  in  the  appointment  of  Legislators,  is  a  sovereign  right, 
and  one  of  the  firstlmportance  in  free  Governments.  It  is  a  sovereign  right,  and  must 
be  so  considered  here.  I  presume  then,  Sir,  that  it  can  only  be  abridged  so  far  as  shall 
be  necessary  for  the  pubhc  safety  and  the  public  good.  And  our  inquiry  is,  how  far  can 
this  right  be  safely  extended.'  or  what  is  a  proper  restraint  upon  it?  We  all  agree 
that  good  Grovernment  depends  very  much  upon  the  determination  of  this  question. 

I  believe.  Sir,  that  the  very  best  form  of  Government  for  the  promotion  of  human 
happiness  and  safety,  is  dictated  by  the  natural  love  of  liberty  and  equality,  implanted 
in  every  human  heart;  and  in  every  act  of  mine  upon  this  floor,  I  shall  be  guided  by 
this  notion.  I  shall  pursue  that  course  which  I  think  best  calculated  to  secure  the  en- 
joyment of  the  greatest  possible  portion  of  the  rights  of  man  to  the  people  of  this  Com- 
monwealth. Government  is,  or  ought  to  be  instituted,  not  for  the  restraint  of  those 
rights,  but  for  their  security  and  enlargement.  We  are  not  to  look  for  man  by  him- 
self in  the  forest,  but  in  society,  where  he  can  only  be  found.  He  is  a  social  being 
by  nature — he  was  made  to  live  in  society,  and  cannot  live  without  it.  In  my  hum- 
ble judgment,  (which,  however,  I  do  not  presume  to  put  in  competition  with  the 
judgment  of  this  body,)  society  may  be  so  ordered  as  to  enable  man  to  enjoy  all  his 
natural  rights,  in  a  much  more  perfect  and  ample  manner,  than  he  can  possibly  do 
alone,  in  the  unbroken  forest. 

In  the  few  remarks  which  I  propose  submitting  for  the  consideration  of  the  Com- 
mittee, I  shall  endeavor  to  argue  from  facts  to  conclusions,  and  not  by  mere  declama- 
tion, as  I  think  was  the  course  of  the  gentleman  who  preceded  me  in  opposition  to  the 
amendment  of  my  colleague,  (Mr.  Wilson.)  It  is  from  facts  we  are  to  look  for  cor- 
rect conclusions,  and  I  know  of  no  better  course  of  reasoning  on  the  affairs  of  Govern- 
ment, than  to  look  into  facts  and  circumstances  connected  with  other  Governments, 
similar  to  those  in  our  own,  and  the  effects,  and  to  conclude  that  similar  facts  and  cir- 
cumstances here,  would  produce  similar  effects. 

The  gentleman  of  the  city  of  Richmond,  (Mr.  Nicholas.)  on  yesterday,  from  his 
course  of  declamation,  came  to  the  conclusion,  that  non-freeholders  could  not  love 
Virginia.  His  principal  argument  consisted  in  the  fact,  that  the  holder  of  Bank  stock 
in  this  city  might  go  to  the  office,  transfer  his  stock,  and  in  a  few  hours  have  himself 
conveyed  to  the  State  of  Maryland.  I  pray  you.  Sir,  cannot  the  land-holder  do  tlie 
same,  by  going  to  another  office,  (the  clerk's  office,)  and  there  transfer  his  land.? 
This  sovereign  right  never  can,  or  ought  to  depend  upon  the  ease  or  facility  of  the 
mere  alienation  of  property.    No,  Sir,  it  must  depend  upon  higher  considerations. 

The  gentleman  across  the  way,  (Mr.  Trezvant.)  seems  alarmed  at  the  amendment, 
because  it  contains  what  he  calls  Universal  Suffrage.  I  would  call  it  General  Suffrage. 
It  is  possible,  however,  that  his  objections  have  been  induced  by  an  intimate  acquaint- 
ance with  the  improper  exercise  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage  by  free  negroes  in  the  elec- 
tions in  North  Carolina.  I  believe  the  gentleman  resides  near  that  State.  Or,  per- 
haps his  argument  is  drawn  from  the  fact,  which  he  has  given  the  Committee,  that 
some  gentleman  of  his  acquaintance,  raised  in  Virginia,  who  removed  to  some  of  the 
Western  States,  where  the  Suffrage  may  be  said  to  be  general,  resided  there  several 
years,  again  saw  the  gentleman,  and  told  him  that  he  still  loved  Virginia:  ergo,  the 
Right  of  Suffrage  as  fixed  by  the  Constitution  of  Virginia,  is  the  very  best  in  the 
world  !  This  may  be  a  conclusive  argument  with  that  gentleman;  it  is  not  with  me. 
Before  I  enter  upon  the  argument,  it  will  be  proper  to  observe  to  the  Committee, that 
I  had  the  honor  a  few  days  ago  of  laying  upon  the  table  a  scheme  for  the  regulation  of 
the  Right  of  Suffrage,  differing  somewhat  from  the  one  now  under  consideration.  It 
requires  the  citizenship  of  every  free  white  man,  and  one  year's  residence  in  his 
county,  city,  or  borough,  and  the  payment  of  all  taxes  or  levies,  levied  upon  him  the 
two  years  next  preceding  the  one  in  which  he  proposes  to  vote ;  and  also,  that  a  tax  of 
twenty-five  cents  shall  be  levied  on  every  free  white  man,  to  be  collected  and  paid 
into  the  public  treasury.  All  such  citizens,  having  so  paid  their  taxes,  would  be  en- 
titled to  vote.  It  also  requires  that  a  portion  of  the  property-taxes  equal  to  the  whole 
amount  of  the  taxes  so  required  to  be  collected  and  paid  in,  shall  be  set  apart,  and 
these  two  suras  annually  appropriated  and  vested  in  the  permanent  Literary  Fund, 
for  purposes  of  education.  The  amendment  now  under  consideration  requires  two 
years'  residence  in  the  State,  and  one  in  the  county,  city,  or  borough,  and  the  pay- 
ment of  all  taxes  and  levies,  levied  on  all  such  free  white  men  within  the  year  next 
preceding  the  time  of  election,  as  a  qualification.  It  requires  no  specific  tax  to  be  le- 
vied, but  the  payment  of  those  which  shall  be  levied.    This  amendment  meets  ray  ap- 

48 


378 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


probation  as  fully  as  my  own,  except  as  to  the  subject  of  education.  It  is,  perhaps,  as 
great  an  extension  as  we  may  now  expect  to  get. 

It  is  possible,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  I  shall  not  call  up  for  consideration  that  part  of 
my  scheme  which  relates  to  education.  I  have  seen  too  much  opposition  already  ex- 
pressed by  several  gentlemen  (in  the  discussion  of  another  question)  to  the  establish- 
ment of  any  system  of  general  instruction,  and  I  presume  it  would  be  useless  to  urge 
my  views  on  the  consideration  of  the  Committee.  We  have  heard  expressed  the 
fears  and  objections  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  (Mr.  Leigh,)  the  gentleman 
from  Spottsylvania,  (Mr.  Stanard,)  and  other  gentlemen  too,  Sir;  which  fears  and  ob- 
jections seem  to  be,  that  some  system  may  be  adopted  to  tax  the  people  of  the  East, 
for  the  education  of  the  children  of  the  West.  I  believe,  Sir,  I  am  not  mistaken  in 
saying  that  at  least  two  of  these  gentlemen  were  educated  at  William  and  Mary,  an 
institution  which  had  authority,  and  did  tax  the  buck-skins,  and  the  pelts  of  the 
beavers  and  otters  taken  by  the  Western  hunters,  through  the  medium  of  the  sur- 
veyors' fees.    Yet  they  fear  that  the  East  vv'ill  be  taxed  for  the  benefit  of  the  West. 

I  will,  however,  state  to  the  Committee,  that  it  can  be  demonstrated  by  documents 
to  be  relied  on,  that  the  plan  which  I  had  the  honor  of  proposing,  (if  adopted,)  would 
at  the  end  of  twenty  years,  furnish  the  means  of  giving  five  years  education  to  every 
free  white  child,  born  in  the  Commonwealth  of  Virginia :  and  as  well,  Sir,  to  those  of 
the  Eastern  part  of  the  Old  Dominion,  as  to  those  of  the  West.  Yes,  Sir,  to  all !  And 
whatever  other  gentlemen  may  think  upon  this  subject,  I  think  even  that  would  ren- 
der more  substantial  benefit  to  the  people,  than  all  we  have  done;  (indeed,  we  have 
done  nothing,)  I  may  say,  more  than  all  we  can  now  possibly  expect  to  do.  But  it 
must  be  abandoned  for  the  present. 

This  brings  me,  Mr.  Chairman,  to  the  question  before  us,  and  as  I  have  before  said, 
I  will  endeavour  to  argue  from  facts  to  conclusions. 

The  proposition  now  under  consideration,  justifies  an  enquiry  into  the  state  of  the 
Government;  and  I  believe,  it  will  be  found  to  be  aristocratical  in  its  principles.  If 
you  agree  that  an  aristocracy  is  properly  defined  to  be  a  Government  of  the  few  over  the 
many,  and  that  those  fev/  hold  their  authority  by  virtue  of  their  estates,  I  can  prove 
that  our  Government  is  an  aristocracy,  or  at  least  aristocratical  in  its  nature  and  prin- 
ciples. If  it  shall  be  found,  tliat  the  powers  of  the  Government  are  in  the  hands  of  the 
few,  to  the  exclusion  of  the  many,  and  these  few  are  to  be  ascertained  and  known  by 
the  estates  they  hold,  surely  it  must  be  aristocratical  in  its  nature.  And  I  venture  to 
say,  that  such  is  the  situation  of  the  Government  of  Virginia,  at  this  time. 

In  1828,  when  the  election  was  before  the  people,  to  determine  whether  they  would 
call  this  Convention  or  not,  thirty-eight  thousand  five  hundred  and  thirty-three  votes 
were  given,  and  returned  from  the  Avhole  State,  (20,275  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  and 
18,258  West.)  And  here,  Sir,  I  must  beg  leave  to  correct  some  of  the  very  errone- 
ous calculations  of  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania,  made  a  few  days  ago,  in  the 
discussion  of  the  question  upon  the  basis  of  Representation.  The  gentleman's  calcu- 
lations were  taken  from  the  axgument  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  whose  argu- 
ment was  founded  upon  documents  furni.shed  by  the  Auditor,  known  by  every  per- 
son here  to  be  inaccurate,  fallacious,  and  not  to  be  depended  upon.  These  documents 
purport  to  exhibit  the  number  of  freehold-estates  in  the  Commonwealth,  which  will 
authorise  voters.  It  must  be  recollected,  that  they  included  all  such  estates,  whether 
held  by  men,  women,  children,  foreigners,  or  even  free  negroes,  if  any  such  persons 
have  freeholds.  But  not  only  so,  each  person's  freehold  in  every  county  is  counted ; 
so  that  the  same  man  is  counted  once  for  his  freehold,  or  freeholds,  in  each  county. 
Many  m.en  are  counted  three,  four,  and  five  times,  and  some,  perhaps,  oftener.  It  is 
very  common,  particularly  in  the  Eastern  part  of  the  State,  for  gentlemen  to  have  free- 
holds in  many  counties,  but  not  so  frequent  in  the  West.  But  this  is  not  all.  In  several 
of  the  Western  counties,  a  few  years  ago,  large  quantities  of  lands  were  returned  delin- 
quent for  the  non-payment  of  taxes,  and  sold.  Most  of  these  lands  now  belong  to  the 
Literary  Fund.  They  do  not  appear  on  the  commissioners'  books  ;  and,  consequently, 
were  not  reported  by  the  Auditor.  These  documents  are  not  to  be  relied  on,  I  can 
assure  you. 

I  give  you  better  proof :  1  offer  you  the  freeholders  themselves  when  called  to  the 
polls,  and  not  at  one  time,  but  several  times,  when  all  felt  an  interest,  and  when 
nearly  all  attended.  I  offer  you  the  list  of  votes  from  all  the  counties,  cities,  and  bo- 
roughs, both  from  the  East  and  fr-om  the  West.  It  is  known  that  every  voter  did  not 
attend,  but  more,  I  presume,  were  prevented  from  attending  in  the  West,  than  in  the 
East.  There  were  circumstances  in  that  country  to  prevent  their  attendance,  which 
did  not  operate  here.  In  some  of  the  large  counties,  where  there  were  no  district 
elections,  some  were  prevented  from  attending  the  polls  by  intervening  mountains 
and  water-courses;  and  even  where  there  were  districts,  all  who  failed  to  attend  on 
the  first  day,  were  compelled  afterwards  to  go  to  the  court-houses;  for  the  law  only  re- 
quired the  polls  to  be  kept  open  after  the  first  day,  at  the  court-houses  during  court 
days.    Those  difficulties  were  not  much  felt  in  this  part  of  the  State. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


379 


I  can  assure  you,  that  the  votes  were  taken,  and  the  polls  examined  with  great  care, 
and  I  doubt  whether  the  vote  of  any  non-freeholder,  ever  reached  the  Executive 
Chamber.  The  judges  qualified  to  take  votes  and  purge  the  polls  were  vigilant,  and 
performed  their  duty  with  the  utmost  strictness,  so  far  as  I  have  been  informed.  In- 
deed, they  were,  of  all  men  in  the  Commonwealth,  the  last  to  permit  improper  votes 
to  be  counted ;  for  it  must  be  recollected  that  these  gentlemen,  (the  county  court 
clerks,  sheriffs  and  commissioners  of  the  revenue.)  had  but  little  feeling  or  desire  for 
the  formation  of  a  Convention.    They  did  their  duty  fully  and  amply. 

The  number  of  freehold-voters  in  the  State,  may  be  estimated  at  45,000,  and  not 
more.  I  shall  consider  them  as  of  that  number.  From  the  free  white  population  of 
1820,  and  the  hypothetical  increase  since  that  time,  there  are  now  in  the  State  more 
than  140,000  free  white  male  citizens  over  21  years  of  age.  Deduct  from  this  number 
the  voters,  and  you  find  95,000  free  white  men  excluded  from  the  polls.  But,  Sir, 
deduct  from  this  last  number,  5,  10,  or  if  you  please,  15,000  for  paupers  and  others 
who  ought  to  be  excluded,  and  you  still  have  80,000;  leaving  the  Government  in  the 
hands  of  little  more  than  one  third  of  the  people.  I  am  then  justified  in  saying  that 
the  Government  is  in  the  hands  of  the  few;  that  it  is  held  and  exercised  by  that  few, 
who  hold  it  by  virtue  of  their  freehold  estates.  I  ask  you,  now  Sir,  if  our  Govern- 
ment be  not  to  some  extent  aristocratical  in  its  form  ?  It  is  so  considered  by  some 
men  of  great  wisdom,  and  I  believe  generally  by  the  people  of  the  other  States  of 
this  Union.  Are  we  to  close  our  eyes  to  these  facts  ?  or  are  we  to  consider  th^m  as 
having  some  influence  on  our  deliberations.''    Sir,  we  ought  to  consider  them. 

When  I  use  this  argument  to  prove  the  aristocratical  principles  of  our  Government, 
I  do  it  with  due  respect  to  the  opinions  of  all  the  members  of  this  body,  and  also,  with 
due  respect  to  the  freeholders  wlao  sent  me  here ;  whose  opinions  and  interests  I  wish 
to  represent.  But,  Sir,  from  these  facts,  T  must  contend  that  the  Pught  of  Suffrage 
ought  greatly  to  be  extended.  The  freehold  Suffrage  is  contrary  to  the  genius  of  our 
people;  and  I  may  well  say,  contrary  to  the  genius  of  the  people  of  all  these  United 
States.  Is  it  not  unwise  to  contend  for  a  principle  so  much  opposed  to  the  will  of  the 
great  body  of  the  people  ? 

I  shall  now  attempt  to  shew  that  the  freehold  Right  of  Suftrage  is  contrary  to  the 
genius  of  the  American  people.  In  doing  this,  I  will  introduce,  for  the  consideration 
of  the  Committee,  a  general  analysis  of  the  regulations  on  the  Right  of  Suffrage  in 
each  of  the  States  of  this  Union,  which  will  develop  some  curious  facts,  and  correct 
some  improper  impressions  made  on  the  public  mind  on  this  subject.  And  although 
it  may  be  tedious  and  uninteresting  to  the  Committee,  yet  some  valuable  lessons  and 
correct  conclusions  may  be  drawn  from  a  careful  examination  of  all  the  provisions  in 
the  several  States  on  this  subject.  I  know  that  the  Constitutions  of  other  States  will 
not  be  received  as  conclusive  evidence  to  convince  the  Committee  of  the  propriety  of 
adopting  the  principle  for  which  I  contend,  nor,  indeed,  do  I  presume  they  will  have 
much  weight  here.  But,  Sir,  these  Constitutions  are  looked  to  by  tJie  people,  and  are 
respected  by  them.  They  will  have  some  weight,  in  shewing  that  the  principle  of 
General  Suffrage  is  neither  new  nor  dangerous. 

I  proceed,  Mr.  Chairman,  with  the  twelve  slave-holding  States,  as  they  are  called: 

Missouri. — Every  free  white  male  citizen  of  the  United  States,  21  years  of  age,  who 
shall  have  resided  one  year  in  the  State,  and  three  months  in  the  county  or  district, 
shall  be  deemed  a  qualified  voter,  except  soldiers,  seamen  or  marines. 

Alabama. — Every  male  person  of  the  age  of  21  years,  being  a  citizen  of  the  United 
States,  and  who  shall  have  resided  in  the  State  one  year,  and  in  the  county,  city  or 
town,  three  months,  shall  be  deemed  a  qualified  elector,  except  soldiers,  seamen  or 
marines. 

Mississippi. — Every  free  white  male  person  of  the  age  of  21  years,  being  a  citizen 
of  the  United  States,  and  having  resided  in  the  State  one  year,  and  the  last  six  months 
in  the  county,  city,  or  town,  w^here  he  offers  to  vote,  being  enrolled  in  the  militia,  (if 
not  exempted,)  or  having  paid  a  State  or  county  tax,  shall  be  deemed  a  qualified  voter. 

Louisiana. — Every  free  white  male  citizen  of  the  United  States,  who  at  the  time 
being,  hath  attained  the  age  of  21  j^ears,  and  resided  in  the  county  in  which  he  offers 
to  vote,  one  year  next  preceding  the  election,  and  who,  in  the  last  six  months,  has 
paid  a  State  tax,  shall  enjoy  the  right  of  an  elector;  and  every  such  citizen  who  shall 
have  purchased  lands  from  the  United  States,  shall  have  the  right  of  voting,  when  he 
shall  have  the  other  qualifications  of  age  and  residence. 

Kentucky. — Every  free  male  citizen,  (negroes,  mulattoes,  and  Indians,  excepted,) 
who  at  the  time  being,  hath  attained  to  the  age  of  21  years,  and  resided  in  the  State 
two  years,  and  the  county  or  town  he  offers  to  vote,  one  year  next  preceding  the  elec- 
tion, shall  enjoy  the  right  of  an  elector. 

Tennessee. — Every  free  man  of  the  age  of  21  years  and  upwards,  possessing  a  free- 
hold in  the  county  wherein  he  may  vote,  and  being  an  inhabitant  of  the  State ;  and 
every  free  man  being  an  inhabitant  of  any  one  county  in  the  State  six  months,  imme- 
diately preceding  the  day  of  election,  shall  be  entitled  to  vote. 


380 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Georgia. — The  electors  of  members  of  the  General  Assembly  shall  be  citizens  and 
inhabitants  of  the  State,  and  shall  have  attained  the  age  of  21  years,  and  have  paid  all 
taxes  which  may  have  been  required  of  them,  and  which  they  may  have  had  an  op- 
portunity of  paying  agreeable  to  law  for  the  year  preceding  the  election,  and  who  shall 
have  resided  six  months  within  the  county. 

South  Carolina. — By  the  old  Constitution,  the  Right  of  Suffrage  was  confined  to  free 
white  males  21  years  of  age,  possessed  of  freeholds  in  50  acres  of  land,  or  town  lots, 
and  such  of  them  as  paid  two  shillings  sterling  of  taxes  the  year  before  the  election. 
But  by  the  amended  Constitution : 

Every  free  white  man  of  the  age  of  twenty-one  years,  (paupers  and  soldiers  of  the 
United  States  excepted,)  being  a  citizen  of  the  State,  and  having  resided  therein  two 
years  previous  to  the  election,  and  who  hath  a  freehold  of  fifty  acres  of  land,  or  a 
town  lot,  of  which  he  hath  been  seised  or  possessed  six  months  before  the  election ; 
or  not  having  such  freehold  or  town  lot,  hath  been  a  resident  in  the  election  district  in 
which  he  offers  to  vote,  six  months  before  the  election,  shall  have  a  right  to  vote. 

JVorth  Carolina. — All  free  men  of  twenty-one  years  of  age,  having  been  possessed 
of  a  freehold  estate  in  fifty  acres  of  land  for  six  months,  and  having  resided  twelve 
months  in  the  county,  may  vote  for  Senators — and  all  free  men  of  the  age  of  twenty- 
one,  who  have  been  inhabitants  of  any  one  county  twelve  months,  and  shall  have 
paid  public  taxes,  shall  be  entitled  to  vote  for  Commons.  It  is  nearly  the  same  in 
towns  having  separate  representation. 

Maryland. — By  her  old  Constitution,  all  free  men  above  twenty-one  years  of  age, 
having  freeholds  of  fifty  acres  of  land,  or  thirty  pounds  value  of  any  property,  and 
having  resided  one  year  in  any  one  county,  were  authorised  to  vote.  But  by  the 
amendment  of  1802,  every  free  white  male  citizen  of  the  State  (and  no  others)  above 
the  age  of  twenty-one  years,  having  resided  one  year  in  any  county,  or  the  city  of 
Baltimore,  or  Annapolis  before  the  election,  shall  have  the  Right  of  Suffrage. 

Delaioare. — Every  white  free  man  of  the  age  of  twenty-one  years,  having  resided 
in  the  State  two  years  next  before  the  election,  and  within  that  time  paid  a  State  or 
county  tax  which  shall  have  been  assessed  at  least  six  months  before  the  election, 
shall  enjoy  the  right  of  an  elector ;  and  the  sons  of  those  so  qualified,  between  the 
ages  of  twenty-one  and  twenty-two,  may  vote  without  having  paid  a  tax. 

Virginia  we  know  is  freehold. 

From  the  Constitutions  of  these  twelve  slave-holding  States,  the  various  facts  will 
be  discovered,  that  six  of  them  require  fixed  times  of  age  and  residence  of  their  male 
citizens,  as  the  only  qualifications  of  electors;  four  require  the  payment  of  some  kind 
of  taxes  in  addition  to  age  and  residence ;  and  only  two  require  a  freehold  qualifica- 
tion :  these  two  are  Virginia,  and  North  Carolina  in  the  Senate. 

I  will  not  detain  the  Committee  in  giving  a  full  analysis  of  the  Constitutions  of  the 
non-slave-holding  States,  but  will  merely  submit  this  statement,  shewing  that  six  of 
them  require  age  and  residence  as  qualifications,  and  that  the  other  six  require  the 
payment  of  some  kind  of  taxes. 

States  which  require  particular  terms  of  age  and  residence  as  qualifications  of 
electors : 

Slave-holding.  JVon-slave-holding. 
Missouri,  Illinois, 
Alabama,  Indiana, 
Kentucky,  Maine, 
Tennessee,  New  Hampshire, 

South  Carolina,  Vermont, 
Maryland — 6.  Rhode  Island — 6. 

States  which  require  the  payment  of  taxes  in  addition  to  age  and  residence : 
Mississippi,  Ohio, 
Louisiana,  Pennsylvania, 
Georgia,  Massachusetts, 
Delaware — 4.  Connecticut, 

New  Jersey, 
New  York— 6. 

States  which  require  freehold  estates  in  addition  to  age  and  residence : 
Virginia, 

North  Carolina— 2 

T2  12  _ 

Now,  Sir,  I  have  presented  for  your  consideration  twelve  States  of  this  Union,  in 
which  the  Right  of  Suffrage  is  extended  generally,  to  all  the  firee  white  male  citizens 
of  twenty-one  years  of  age.  Some  of  them ,  but  not  all,  have  excluded  paupers,  soldiers 
and  seamen;  and  some  have  not  even  excluded  free  negroes.  Six  of  them,  like  Vir- 
ginia, hold  slaves,  and  six  do  not.  I  have  also  presented  you  with  ten  States,  which 
require  the  payment  of  taxes  in  addition  to  the  qualifications  of  age  and  residence — 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


381 


four  of  them  slave-holding,  and  six  not.  South  CaroHna,  Maryland,  Massachusetts 
and  New  York,  have  changed  their  former  Constitutions  in  this  particular,  and  have 
abandoned  the  freehold  qualification,  except  as  to  free  negroes,  in  New  York.  The 
Constitution  of  that  State  authorises  free  negroes,  being  male  citizens  of  that  State, 
of  full  age,  who  hold  estates  of  freehold,  of  the  value  of  $250,  clear  of  debts  and  in- 
cumbrances, and  who  shall  have  paid  taxes  on  their  estates,  to  vote.  But,  I  have 
heard  that  the  Legislature  refused  to  tax  these  freeholds,  and  thereby  deprived  the 
owners  of  voting.  There  is  an  express  provision  in  the  Constitution,  that  no  free 
negro's  real  estate  under  the  value  of  $250,  shall  be  taxed;  so  that  no  man  is  taxed 
in  that  State  without  representation.  I  believe,  Mr.  Chairman,  from  these  facts,  I 
may  conclude  that  the  freehold  Right  of  Suffrage  is  contrary  to  the  genius  of  the  peo- 
ple of  the  present  age,  and  the  Republican  institutions  of  the  United  States. 

If  any  confidence  can  be  placed  in  the  people  of  the  United  States,  (and  I  presume 
there  can  be  some)  so  far  as  example  and  precedent  taken  from  them  can  have  any 
influence  on  our  deliberations,  that  influence  is  in  favour  of  an  extension,  even  be- 
yond the  amendment  of  my  colleague.  The  example  of  these  States  has  a  very 
powerful  influence  on  the  people  of  Virginia,  I  am  well  assured.  My  residence  is 
near  Pennsylvania  and  Ohio ;  and  I  see  and  know  the  influence  of  those  States,  and 
their  institutions,  over  the  people  of  the  Western  part  of  this  State.  They  see  and 
know  the  benefits  of  General  Suffrage  on  society — they  approve,  they  desired  a  change. 
And,  Sir,  look  around  you ;  and  you  find  members  on  this  floor  from  the  Tennessee 
line,  round  to  that  of  Maryland,  who  advocate  the  same  principles  for  which  I  con- 
tend.   But  to  the  South,  on  the  North  Carolina  line,  we  meet  with  opposition. 

The  gentleman  over  the  way,  (Mr.  Trezvant,)  has  told  us  that  every  Republican 
Government  in  the  world,  where  Universal  Suffrage  was  instituted,  has  gone  to  ruin 
and  perdition.  Now.  Sir,  I  would  like  the  gentleman  to  name  the  Government  to 
which  he  refers  us,  that  we  may  know  the  force  of  his  precedents.  I  shew  him 
twelve  Republican  Governments  where  suffrage,  although  not  Universal,  is  very 
general,  which  have  not  yet  gone  to  ruin. 

[Here  Mr.  Trezvant  remarked  that  his  reference  was  to  the  ancient  Republics  of 
Greece  and  Rome,  where  Suffrage  became  Universal.] 

Then,  Mr.  Chairman,  the  gentleman's  cases  are  not  in  point,  and  cannot,  therefore, 
be  considered  as  having  any  influence  on  the  question.  It  is  not  necessary  to  dis- 
cuss them.  They  were  either  democratic  or  very  imperfect  Republics,  and  their  his- 
tory shews  that  they  are  not  examples  for  us.  Sir,  we  must  look  to  our  sister  States, 
whose  history  we  know,  and  whose  example  we  feel.  They  sustain  us  :  and  we  are 
sustained  in  our  principles  by  the  opinions  of  some  of  the  best  and  wisest  men  of  our 
own  country — men  whose  names  will  go  down  to  posterity  when  many  of  us  will  be 
forgotten.  We  are  not  contending  for  a  wild  and  untried  scheme.  No  !  It  is  one 
founded  on  the  eternal  principles  of  hberty  and  equality,  which  must  characterize 
every  good  Republican  Government  which  now  is,  or  which  ever  can  be. 

But  there  is  another  objection.  Those  who  pay  no  taxes  are  unworthy  of  the  pri- 
vilege of  voting.  It  must  be  observed  that  taxes  may  be  imposed  in  various  ways, 
and  services  may  be  required  instead  of  the  payment  of  money,  for  the  support  of 
Government.  Every  thing  contributed  for  the  support  of  any  branch  of  the  afiairs 
or  concerns  of  Government,  may  be  legitimately  considered  as  part  of  the  taxes ;  and 
it  is  a  curious  fact,  that  the  taxes  and  services  imposed  on  the  people  of  Virginia, 
have  been  so  ai'ranged,  that  the  greatest  burthens  have  been  put  upon  those  who  do 
not  vote.  Yes,  Sir,  I  say  that  those  who  do  not  vote,  are  burthened  greatly  beyond 
what  is  right,  and  even  more  than  is  generally  imagined.  On  a  former  occasion  I 
attempted  to  shew,  and  did  shew,  that  such  is  the  fact. 

This  scheme  of  taxation  is  effected  by  authorising  those  one  hundred  and  nine  little 
Governments  spread  over  the  whole  territory  of  the  State,  (the  county,  city  and 
borough  court,)  to  levy  taxes  to  any  amount.  It  is  true  they  levy  on  voters,  as  well 
as  those  who  are  not ;  but  it  is  a  capitation  tax,  and  very  frequently  far  exceeds  the 
whole  revenue  levied  upon  all  the  property  of  the  counties.  Look  to  all  the  items  of 
county  taxes  and  county  services — military  duty — labour  on  the  public  roads — county 
levies  for  various  purposes — poor  levies,  (the  poor  supporting  the  poor,)  and  patrols 
in  the  counties.  Add  all  these  httle  items  together,  and  it  will  be  found  that  they 
make  large  sums — that  they  are  very  important  contributions  to  the  Government, 
and  highly  necessary  for  its  good  being.  The  voters  pay  in  general  the  same ;  but 
the  number  of  those  who  do  not  vote,  so  far  exceeds  them,  that  the  whole  contribu- 
tion of  the  non-voters,  is  even  greater  than  that  of  the  voters. 

A  few  days  ago  we  were  told  that  wealth  and  political  power  could  not  be  divorced; 
that  capital  and  labour  could  not  be  separated ;  and  that  labour  must  be  represented. 
Yet,  Sir,  on  the  present  occasion,  we  find  that  labour  is  only  to  be  represented  by  the 
votes  of  freehold-labourers ;  and  the  whole  power  of  the  Government  is  to  be  placed 
at  the  control  of  the  capital  of  the  country,  if  possible.  It  is  not  forme,  however, to 
reconcile  these  inconsistencies  in  gentlemen's  arguments.    1  hesitate  not  to  say,  that 


382 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


those  sixty  or  eighty  thousand  persons,  to  v/hom  it  is  proposed  to  extend  the  Right  of 
Suffrage,  constitute  the  great  mass  of  actual  productive  labourers  of  the  State.  Mr, 
Chairman,  I  believe  it  cannot  be  otherwise. 

We  have  been  told  that  we  shall  have  a  war  of  the  poor  against  the  rich,  and  that 
the  right  of  property  will  be  destroyed,  if  the  amendment  be  adopted.  It  is  not  so, 
and  no  man  can  or  ought  to  believe  it.  If  the  people  of  the  East,  West  or  South, 
have  given  us  examples  worthy  of  our  imitation,  we  can  fear  no  such  thing.  There 
has  been  no  instance  of  war  upon  property  in  any  of  our  sister  States.  It  is  just  as 
secure  in  them  as  in  Virginia.  There  is  more  of  it  in  the  North— greater  estates,  and 
perhaps  more  of  them  than  here.  There  is  a  greater  distance  between  the  rich  and 
the  poor,  and  yet  the  poor  is  in  a  better  condition  than  they  are  with  us.  Sir,  we  can 
find  nothing  like  physical  rapine  in  any  of  the  States  where  General  Suffrage  has  been 
adopted.  All  live  in  peace,  happiness,  prosperity  and  tranquillity,  and  every  man  is 
secure  in  his  own  person  and  property,  under  his  own  roof. 

It  has  been  argued,  that  General  Suffrage  has  a  tendency  to  bring  together  the  rich 
and  the  poor,  and  that  the  one  will  have  means,  and  be  able  to  buy  up  the  other,  to 
the  prejudice  of  the  liberty  of  the  people.  This  argument  always  comes  from  those 
who  advocate  the  power  of  the  few  over  the  many.  Yes,  Sir,  from  the  real  aristocracy 
of  the  country.  It  is  an  argument  to  be  found  in  nearly  all  the  treatises  of  theoretical 
writers,  who  support  aristocracies.  The  object  is  to  alarm  the  people  with  fear  that 
the  poor  will  be  bought,  and  made  engines  of  their  own  ruin.  It  is  only  for  purposes 
of  alarm,  and  is  not  true.  If  the  Constitution  shall  require  of  electors,  the  payment 
of  a  small  tax  just  before  elections,  there  will  be  a  possibility  of  an  improper  influence, 
if  there  can  be  candidates  corrupt  enough  to  buy,  having  the  means  to  buy,  and  voters 
base  enough  to  sell  their  votes.  But  I  know  of  no  case  of  corruption,  in  any  of  the 
States,  having  such  a  qualification.  Cases  of  mere  suspicion,  perhaps,  have  occurred. 
If  the  payment  of  taxes  be  made  a  qualification,  they  ought  not  to  be  required  imme- 
diately before  the  election,  but  some  one  or  two  years  preceding,  at  a  time  wlien  they 
cannot  be  paid  with  a  view  to  any  particular  election.  But,  Sir,  I  would  not  tax  a 
man  merely  to  qualify  him  to  vote,  although  it  may  be  proper,  in  this  way,  to  require 
a  man  justly  and  honestly  to  pay  the  public  demands.  All  free  men  ought  to  vote, 
because  they  are  free  men.  Then  they  will  act  independently.  Such  men  can  ne- 
ver be  purchased  by  the  cash  of  candidates,  or  the  power  of  demagogues.  No,  the 
poor  will  be  as  independent  in  their  opinions,  as  the  greatest  land-holders  of  the  State, 

There  is  one  other  argument  which  ought  to  have  some  influence  on  this  question. 
It  is  one  of  delicacy,  and  I  will  say  but  little  upon  the  subject  of  this  argument;  how- 
ever, I  will  say  something.  We  find  that  all  the  slave-holding  States  South  of  us, 
deemed  it  of  the  utmost  importance  to  make  all  the  free  white  men  as  free  and  inde- 
pendent, as  Government  could  make  them:  and  why.''  Sir,  it  is  known  that  all  the 
slave-holding  States  are  fast  approaching  a  crisis  truly  alarming :  a  time  when  free- 
men will  be  needed — when  every  man  must  be  at  his  post.  Do  we  not  see  the  pecu- 
liar condition  of  society.?  Yes,  all  see,  all  feel,  and  all  lament  the  approach  of  the 
crisis  before  us.  It  must  be  in  the  contemplation  of  gentlemen,  who  presume  to  look 
upon  the  progress  of  events,  that  the  time  is  not  far  distant,  when  not  only  Virginia, 
but  all  the  Southern  States,  must  be  essentially  military;  and  will  have  military  Go- 
vernments !  It  will  be  so  !  We  are  going  to  such  a  state  of  things  as  fast  as  time 
can  move.  The  youth  will  not  only  be  taught  in  the  arts  and  sciences,  but  they  will 
be  trained  to  arms — they  must  be  found  at  every  moment  in  arms — they  must  be 
ready  to  serve  their  country  in  the  hour  of  peril  and  of  danger.  Is  it  not  wise  now,  to 
call  together  at  least  every  free  white  human  being,  and  unite  them  in  the  same  com- 
mon interest  and  Government?  Surely  it  is.  Let  us  give  no  reason  for  any  to  stand 
back,  or  refuse  their  service  in  the  common  cause  of  their  country.  These  conside- 
rations had  their  influence  on  the  Southern  States,  when  forming  their  Constitutions, 
I  doubt  not;  and  ought  to  have  great  influence  with  us. 

I  would  ask,  Mr.  Chairman,  where  are  the  evils  to  be  apprehended  from  General 
Suffrage  1  I  have  been  unable  to  find  them.  It  is  true,  we  have  been  told  that  it  pro- 
duces mobs,  confusion,  and  turmoil  at  the  polls.  Turn  your  eyes  upon  all  the  States 
of  this  Union,  and  let  me  ask  for  the  evidence  of  these  mobs  and  turmoils  Look  to 
the  South,  and  have  you  heard  of  them .?  No  !  Look  to  the  West,  and  do  you  find 
them  there.?  No  !  Look  to  the  North,  and  do  you  see  them  even  there  ?  No!  They 
are  no  where  to  be  found  except  in  large  towns  and  cities,  where  it  is  perfectly  well 
known,  that  restraint  on  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  has  no  influence  over  them  whatever. 

Where  many  thousands  of  persons  are  brought  together  upon  election  days,  there 
will  be  disputes,  and  sometimes  turmoils.  But  no  danger  to  the  public  safety  need  be 
apprehended  in  mere  disputes  in  the  choice  of  pubhc  officers.  These  disputes  only 
serve  to  show  that  the  body  politic  is  in  a  good  and  healthy  condition ;  that  it  has 
energy  and  power.  It  is  not  like  the  cold  calm  of  perfect  aristocracy  or  despotism, 
where  few  men  dare  express  opinions  on  the  public  affairs.  No,  Sir  ;  all  are  at  liberty, 
and  all  are  free  to  discuss  the  affairs  of  Government.    I  fear  not  mobs  or  turmoils  in 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


383 


Virginia  ;  and  none  who  are  at  all  conversant  with  elections  in  Pennsylvania  and  other 
States,  where  Suffrage  is  general,  can  fear  them.  Those  States  are  generally  divided 
in  small  election  distxicts,  so  that  few  persons  are  brought  together.  W  hy  not  do  as 
they  have Our  counties  may  be  districted ;  and  even  a  less  number  of  persons 
brought  to  the  polls  at  a  single  place,  than  now  is,  under  the  existing  Constitution. 
This  is  the  best  remedy  against  mobs  or  turmoils. 

I  must  conclude  my  remarks,  Mr.  Chairman,  by  telling  you,  that  from  the  facts 
which  I  have  laid  before  the  Committee,  we  may  safely  argue  that  there  is  no  danger 
of  rapine  or  robbery  by  the  poor  upon  the  rich ;  nor  of  mobs,  turmoils,  ruin  or  despo- 
tism; nor  indeed,  of  the  Government  getting  in  the  hands  of  demagogues.  I  have  a 
sanguine  hope  that  the  Convention  will  extend  the  Right  of  Suffrage  generaJly ;  that 
the°people  will  accept  it,  and  that  if  it  shall  at  any  time  be  found  inconvenient  or  im- 
proper, that  they  will  change  it.  Several  States,  as  I  have  said,  have  abandoned  the 
freeJiold  Suffrage,  and  all  are  doing  weh;  all  are  happy  and  prosperous.  Virginia  can 
do  the  same,  and  the  effects  will  be  similar. 

I  beg  the  Committee  not  to  consider  that  we  advocate  a  mere  wild  and  untried 
scheme.  But  on  the  contrary  be  assured,  that  we  in  good  faith,  advocate  what  we 
deem  to  be  the  sacred  rights  of  the  people.  We  do  it  to  promote  the  happiness  and 
welfare  of  our  country. 

Mr.  Wilson  now  modified  his  amendment,  so  as  to  require  that  the  taxes  should 
have  been  demanded  of  the  voter  before  he  was  rejected  for  not  having  paid  them. 

The  question  w^as  then  taken  and  decided  in  the  negative  :    Ayes  37,  Noes  53. 

(Messrs.  Madison,  Monroe  and  Marshall,  voting  in  the  negative.) 

So  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Wilson  was  rejected. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke,  then  offered  the  following  amendment  as  a  substitute  for 
the  3d  resolution  reported  by  the  Committee  : 

1.  Resolved^  That  all  persons  now  by  law  possessed  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  have 
sufficient  evidence  of  permanent  common  interest  with,  and  attachment  to,  the  com- 
munity, and  have  the  Right  of  Suftrage. 

2.  Resolved,  That  all  free  v'hite  males  of  twenty-two  years  of  age,  born  within  this 
Commonwealth,  and  resident  therein,  have  sufficient  evidence  of  permanent  common 
interest  with,  and  attachment  to  the  communit}',  and  have  the  Right  of  Suffrage. 

3.  Resolved,  That  every  free  white  male  of  twenty-one  years  of  age,  a  citizen  of  the 
United  States,  not  included  in  the  two  preceding  resolutions,  who  is  now  a  resident, 
or  who  may  hereafter  become  a  resident  within  this  Commonwealth,  who  is  desirous 
of  having  the  rights  of  a  citizen,  in  this  Commonwealth,  shall,  in  open  court,  in  the 
county  in  which  he  resides,  as  may  be  prescribed  by  law,  make  a  declaration  of  his 
intentions  to  become  a  permanent  resident  in  this  State  :  and  if  such  person  shall, 
twelve  months  after  making  such  declaration,  solemnly  promise  to  submit  to,  and  sup- 
port the  Government  of  this  Commonwealth,  such  person,  shall  be  considered  as 
having  permanent  common  interest  with,  and  attachment  to,  the  community,  and 
shall  have  the  Riglit  of  Suffrage. 

4.  Resolved,  That  all  persons,  except  such  as  shall  have  rendered  important  services 
to  their  country ;  all  persons  of  unsound  mind,  and  all  persons  convicted  of  any  high 
crime  or  misdemeanor  against  this  Commonwealth,  possessing  whatever  qualification 
they  may,  shall  not  be  permitted  to  exercise  the  Right  of  Suffrage  in  tliis  Common- 
wealth. 

Mr.  CajIpbell  then  addressed  the  Committee  as  follows  : 

Mr.  Chairman, — If  I  had  been  asked  what  in  the  reason  and  nature  of  things,  would 
have  first  demanded  and  occupied  the  attention  of  this  Convention,  I  would  have  an- 
swered in  accordance  with  reason,  as  I  think  that  the  first  question  to  be  discussed  is, 
toho  shall  be  a  citizen  of  this  Commomcealth?  The  next  question,  embracing  the  very 
basis  of  Go\;^ernment,  would  have  been ;  ichat  shall  he  the  privileges  and  duties  of  a  citizen 
of  this  Commomcealth  ?  On  these  two  questions,  as  I  think,  Sir,  depends  the  whole  sys- 
tem of  Government.  These  questions  correctly  decided,  and  the  frame  of  our  Go- 
vemraent  would  have  been  reared.  I  would  call  the  attention  of  this  Committee,  Sir, 
to  the  propriety  of  the  term  citizen;  I  need  not  inform  you,  Sir,  nor  any  gentleman 
present,  that  the  term  inhabitant,  is  not  equivalent  to  the  term  citizen.  Every  citizen 
is  an  inhabitant,  but  every  inhabitant  is  not  a  citizen  of  Virginia.  They  are  not  con- 
vertible terms.  In  Great  Britain,  every  person  is  a  subject  of  the  King.  Every  per- 
son from  the  Duke  of  York,  down  to  the  most  obscure  native  of  the  British  Isles,  is  a 
subject  of  his  Majesty  the  King  of  Great  Britain.  It  is  so  in  all  Monarchical  Govern- 
ments. We  have  repudiated  that  term  in  these  United  States,  and  we  have  conse- 
crated the  term  citizen.  But,  Sir,  though  we  admire  the  term,  and  in  a  sort  of  com- 
plimentary way,  address  all  men  as  citizen,  we  do  not  in  fact,  recognize  all  men  as 
citizen.  In  Virginia,  we  have  comparatively  few  citizens.  What,  let  me  ask.  Sir, 
does  the  term  fairly  import.'  A  citizen  is  a  freeman,  who  has  a  voice  in  the  Govern- 
ment under  which  he  lives,  who  has  the  privilege  of  being  heard  in  the  councils  of  his 


384 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


country,  by  his  agent,  or  representative.  No  disfranchised  man  is  a  citizen.  He  may 
be  an  inhabitant,  ahen,  or  what  you  please,  but  without  a  vote  he  cannot  be  a  citizen. 

But,  Sir,  I  have  long  thought,  and  I  am  more  fully  convinced  from  the  debates 
which  I  have  heard  in  this  House,  that  the  science  of  politics,  and  the  science  of  Go- 
vernment, are  yet  in  progress.  We  have  not  yet  attained  to  perfection.  Very  far 
from  it,  Sir.  Man  in  society,  is  capable  of  much  greater  enjoyment  than  any  Govern- 
ment on  earth  has  as  yet  afforded  him.  I  allude,  Sir,  to  the  social  enjoyments,  which 
directly,  or  indirectly,  flow  from  Government,  and  which  every  good  and  wise  Go- 
vernment ought  to  aim  at  producing.  The  Constitution  of  Virginia,  is  the  result  of 
all  the  discoveries  and  improvements  of  nearly  six  thousand  years.  Yes,  Sir,  the  pre- 
sent Constitution  was  the  result  of  all  the  improvements  in  the  science  of  Govern- 
ment in  the  history  of  the  world ;  perfect  or  imperfect,  it  was  the  best  the  world  ever 
saw,  till  the  year  1776.  But  how  much  more  light  have  we  attained  in  the  science 
of  politics  since So  much  at  least,  as  to  authorise  us  to  say,  that  that  instrument  is 
by  no  means  perfect. 

But,  Sir,  the  great  error  of  mankind,  and  the  common  error  of  all  ages,  has  been, 
to  suppose  that  all  reformations  are  perfect,  or  so  nearly,  as  to  admit  of  little  or  no 
amendment.  It  is  equally  true  in  religion  and  politics.  We  have  had  both  sorts  of 
reforms.  After  many  ages  of  darkness  and  superstition,  two  men  arose  called  Re- 
formers; and  they  achieved  what  has  been  called  a  great  reformation.  But  while 
Luther  and  Calvin  effected  much,  and  laid  the  foundation  of  a  real  reformation, 
their  successors  and  admirers  considered  their  work  perfect,  and  pushed  their  enqui- 
ries no  farther.  Since  then,  Sir,  during  an  interval  of  three  hundred  years,  their  ad- 
herents have  not  advanced  an  inch.  So  in  politics.  Some  fifty  or  sixty  years  ago, 
many  distinguished  men,  deservedly  called  reformists,  arose  in  the  political  worid. 
They  carried  their  views  of  reform  to  a  very  considerable  extent,  and  not  only  laid  the 
foundation,  but  actually  accomplished  a  very  great  reformation  in  Government, 
Those  illustrious  fathers  of  the  American  Revolution,  and  founders  of  these  Repub- 
lics, are  entitled  to  the  admiration  and  gratitude  of  all  the  friends  of  the  rights  of  man. 
But  it  was  not  to  be  expected  that  these  sages,  great  and  wise,  and  good,  as  they 
were,  could  have  perfectly  emerged  out  of  the  political  darkness  and  errors,  conse- 
crated by  the  prescriptions  of  the  monarchies  of  the  old  world  for  thousands  of  years. 

We  are  wont  to  admire  antiquity,  and  to  venerate  long  established  usages.  We 
think  our  ancestors  were  the  wisest  and  best  of  men.  Many  of  the  ancient  sages  at- 
tained reputation  ,  merely  because  they  advanced  a  little  beyond  the  ordinary  stature 
of  their  times.  Plato,  Aristotle,  and  Socrates,  cum  multis  aLiis,  were  men  of  only  or- 
dinary stature,  but  they  lived  a.mongst  pigmies.  Yet  these  men,  famous  as  they  were, 
and  still  are,  were  but  pigmies  compared  with  myriads  in  after  times.    But,  Sir, 

Pigmies  though  perched  on  Alps,  are  pigmies  still ; 
And  pyramids,  are  pyramids,  though  placed  in  vales, 

I  do  not  say  that  amongst  the  ancients  there  were  not  great  men,  but  I  do  say,  that 
light  and  science  are  progressing,  and  that  many  of  those  reputed  great,  are  not 
worthy  of  the  admiration  bestowed  upon  them.  They  owe  their  fame  to  the  age  in 
which  they  lived.  The  greatest  of  these  sages,  statesmen,  and  orators,  have  been  far 
surpassed  by  the  moderns.  It  was  well  for  the  reputation  of  Demosthenes  and  Cicero, 
that  they  lived  so  long  before  the  days  of  Sheridan  and  Burke. 

The  science  of  politics  and  Government  is  as  well  understood  in  this  age  as  in  any 
former  age  of  the  world.  I  would  say  better  understood.  Yes,  Sir,  and  I  would  say 
more,  better  understood  in  these  United  States,  than  in  any  other  country  upon  the 
face  of  the  earth.  But  though  our  present  Constitution  was  the  best  production  of 
nearly  six  thousand  years,  experience  and  the  progress  of  political  light  have  dis- 
covered some  defects  in  it. 

I  did  expect,  and  did  promise  myself,  that  Virginia  would  at  this  time  present  to  the 
world  a  model,  the  best  model  of  Government  the  world  ever  saw.  When  I  heard  of 
the  talent  which  was  to  be  assembled  here,  and  which  I  now  see  convened  around 
me,  I  thought  myself  warranted  in  expecting  that  such  would  be  the  result  of  our  de- 
liberations. All  eyes  have  been  turned  to  Virginia :  all  these  United  States  are  look- 
ing with  intense  interest  to  Virginia.  She  owes  it  to  herself,  to  the  whole  United 
States,  to  the  world,  not  to  disappoint  the  general  expectation.  Will  the  Ancient  Do- 
minion respect  herself,  and  realize  the  hopes  of  her  friends?  I  am,  Sir,  beginning  to 
i  despair,  and  to  fear  that  we  are  again  to  prove  that  retrogression  rather  than  progres- 
sion is  the  common  characteristic  of  man. 

Some  call  every  attempt  at  reformation,  and  e-very  new  suggestion,  a  ne2v  theory. 
With  them,  the  reformist  is  a  theorist,  and  his  amendments  are  mere  theories.  I  am 
no  friend  to  mere  theories,  but  all  reformations  and  all  improvements  are  first  theories. 
I  cannot  call  every  effort  to  ameliorate  the  political  condition  of  man  a  mere  theory, 
a  visionary  theory.    And  yet,  Sir,  I  am  no  friend  to  new  theories ;  but  remembering 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONYEXTIOX. 


385 


as  I  do,  that  we  owe  all  our  improvements  which  have  raised  the  present  above  all 
past  ages,  to  mere  theories,  as  some  gentlemen  please  to  call  them,  I  cannot  disparage 
theories  in  the  gross.  Yes,  Sir,  printing  itself,  this  art  which  has  revolutionized,  and 
is  revolutionizing  tlie  world,  as  well  as  all  the  American  systems  of  Government, 
were  once  but  mere  theories. 

I  have  no  new  theory  now  to  offer;  I  only  wish  to  see  the  principles  already  defined, 
understood,  and  canonized,  carried  out  to  their  proper  extent.  I  think  we  are  prepared 
for  nothing  more;  we  can  reasonably  ask  for  no  more  at  present.  But  I  am  very  far 
from  tliinking  that  the  social  compact  has  yet  been  perfected,  or  tliat  society  is  yet 
prepared  for  the  best  possible  political  institutions.  That  Government  is  best  for  any 
people  that  is  best  adapted  to  their  views,  wants,  wishes,  and  even  prejudices:  Not 
that  which  is  best  administered,  but  that  which  best  suits  itself  to  tiie  great  mass  of 
society.  This  seems  not  to  have  been  overlooked  by  the  framers  of  the  Bill  of  Rights, 
and  the  founders  of  this  Govermnent.  They  declared  the  principles,  the  just  and 
righteous  principles  of  the  social  compact ;  and  progressed  so  far  in  the  application  as 
they  supposed  the  then  existing  state  of  society  required  and  permitted.  But  fore- 
seeing that  changes  would  take  place,  and  that  the  human  mind  was  progressing  and 
would  progress,  they  revised,  and  most  prudently  ad^nsed,  a  frequent  recurrence  to 
fundamental  principles  :  Not  to  change  those  principles  as  one  gentleman,  (Mr.  Giles.) 
asked;  but  to  purge  and  reform  our  institutions  by  bringing  them  up  near  to  the  un- 
changeable principles;  by  a  continual  approximation  to  the  cardinal  principles  which 
they  propounded.  x\mongst  all  the  great  political  truths  which  these  sages  declared, 
not  one  is  more  just  or  evident  than  this ;  '*  That  no  free  Government,  or  the  bless- 
ing of  liberty,  can  be  preserved  to  any  people,  but  by  a  firm  adherence  to  justice, 
moderation,  temperance,  frugality  and  virtue,  and  by  frequent  recurrence  to  funda- 
mental principles." 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  based  the  resolutions  which  I  have  had  the  honor  to  submit, 
upon  the  doctrine  contained  in  the  Gth  article  of  the  Bill  of  Rights.  And,  Sir,  per- 
mit me  to  say,  that  I  am  more  attached  to  the  Bill  of  Rights,  than  I  was  before  the 
iate  discussion  commenced.  1  have  seen  that  this  instrument  has  been  our  palladium, 
and  the  only  bulwark  against  the  demolition  of  our  republican  citadel,  and  the  de- 
struction of  tlie  P^epublican  character  of  our  Government.  Nothing  has  now  saved  us 
from  the  establishment,  the  canonization  of  the  most  prominent  features  of  an  aristoc- 
racy, but  this  same  Bill  of  Rights.  Have  not  the  efforts  of  all  the  gentlemen  anti-re- 
formists been  directed  in  some  way  or  other  against  the  letter  of  this  instrument '? 
Some  have  oppugned  it  one  way,  and  some  another.  But  all  who  have  plead  the 
mixed  basis  and  the  freehold  qualification,  have  found  it  in  their  wa}",  and  have  made 
it  in  whole,  or  in  part,  a  dead  letter.  Whether  they  intended  it  or  not,  such  has  been 
the  eff'ect  of  all  their  criticisms  upon  it.  And,  Sir.  give  me  leave  to  add,  if  those  gen- 
tlemen had  succeeded  in  their  efforts,  and  at  this  time  carried  the  taxation  basis,  upon 
their  constructions  of  the  Bill  of  R-ights,  would  it  not  be  possible  some  fifty  years 
hence  upon  a  more  liberal  construction,  and  with  the  precedent  of  these  proceedings 
before  another  Convention,  to  originate  a  legalized  aristocracy  in  the  fullest  sense  of 
the  term  Yes,  Sir,  if  in  the  short  period  of  Jiftij-four  years,  so  great  a  departure 
from  the  principles  developed  and  prescribed  by  the  framers  of  the  existing  Constitu- 
tion, should  have  been  completed  as  the  basing  of  this  Government  on  wealth,  on 
wealth.  Sir,  I  repeat,  disguise  it  as  gentlemen  may,  fifty-four  years  more,  and  another 
Convention  following  such  examples,  and  such  interpretations,  and  we  would  have 
an  oligarchy  in  propria  forma,  a  by-law  established  nobility.  Seeing  the  warfare 
which  has  been  waged  against  this  now  more  than  ever  dear  to  me  instrument,  and 
seeing  the  barrier  wliich  it  has  thrown  in  the  way  of  all  encroachments  upon  our  free 
institutions,  I  shall  vote  for  its  being  perpetually  a  part  of  the  fundamental  law  of  our 
country. 

I  was  glad  on  yesterday  morning,  to  hear  the  gentleman  from  Henrico,  (Mr.  Nicho- 
las,) begin  his  speech  with  the  doctrine  of  this  section  of  that  instrument;  not, 
Sir,  with  the  apphcation  wliich  he  made  of  tliat  doctrine.  According  to  his  interpre- 
tation, no  man  has  any  attachment  to  the  community  or  country,  but  a  freeholder. 
You  will  observe.  Sir,  that  I  have,  in  the  resolutions  before  you,  only  developed  the 
meaning  of  the  Gth  section  of  the  Bill  of  Rights;  the  plain  English  interpretation  of 
the  words.  If  a  single  idea,  not  founded  onlhe  fairest  and  mdst  just  interpretation  of 
these  words,  is  found  in  any  one  of  those  resolutions,  I  hope  it  may  not  be  retained. 
Some  gentlemen  allege,  that  in  the  year  1776,  the  words  common  interest  icith,  and  at- 
tachment to,  the  community,  meant  neither  less  nor  more  than  a  freeholder.  Accord- 
ing to  what  dictionary  or  mode  of  interpretation;  this  meaning  is  m.ade  out,  I  have  not 
as  yet  learned.  Words  may  be  used  in  an  appropriated  sense,  I  own;  but  some  proof 
of  tills  appropriated  sense  niust  be  produced;  as  yet,  I  have  not  heard  any  authority 
other  than  assertion.  Please  observe  that  the  words  common  interest''  do  not  mean 
equal  interest.  That  they  do  not,  the  single  fact  of  the  inequality  of  the  freeholds  from 
twenty-five  to  one  thousand  acres  in  extent,  and  from  twenty-five  to  one  hundred 

49 


386 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


thousand  dollars  in  value,  unquestionably  indicates.  Common  interest  admits  of  the 
greatest  variety  in  the  extent  and  value  of  that  interest.  One  gentleman  had  spoken 
of  the  interest  which  one  man  might  have  in  a  ship  which  had  a  valuable  cargo  aboard, 
and  another  who  had  only  his  person.  They  both  had  a  common  interest,  it  was  true; 
but  he  mio-ht  have  given  to  the  figure  a  greater  extent,  and  supposed  that  many  indi- 
viduals mioht  have  had  different  stakes  embarked  on  the  same  bottom.  Besides  their 
own  persons,  they  might  have  a  great  diversity  of  interests,  and  though  dispropor- 
tioned  in  value,  equally  interesting  them  all  in  the  safety  of  the  ship.  No  two  inter- 
ests are  precisely  equal,  yet  all  have  a  common  interest.  But  it  is  said  that  this  com- 
mon interest  must  also  be  a  permanent  interest.  This  further  defines  the  nature  of 
this  common  interest.  This  restrictive  term  denotes  that  it  is  not  to  be  a  transient  in- 
terest. But  still  this  word  permmicjit  is  only  comparative  and  necessarily  limited. 
The  various  interests  which  we  found  embarked  in  the  same  ship,  are  as  permanent 
as  the  voyage  from  port  to  port.  It  may  be  a  long  voyage  or  a  short  voyage.  So  it 
may  be,  and  so  often  is  the  journey  of  human  life.  Our  interests  in  the  State  are  as 
transient  and  as  uncertain  as  our  lives.  We  all  have  a  common  interest  in  the  State, 
but  how  permanent  or  how  transient  that  interest  may  be ,  cannot  be  defined .  Besides,  it 
may  in  any  given  instance,  be  more  transient  than  our  lives.  He  who  has  a  freehold  of 
any  given  extent,  may  either  sell  or  spend  it  in  a  very  short  time,  and  if  we  make  his 
tenure  of  that  estate  the  test  of  his  permanent  interest  in  the  State,  we  have  fixed 
upon  as  great  an  uncertainty  as  can  be  well  conceived.  It  is  a  very  precarious  per- 
manency, as  uncertain  as  the  tenure  of  life,  and  not  necessarily  of  longer  duration 
than  any  other  man's  interest  in  society.  The  landlord  and  the  tenant  may  have,  as 
far  as  law  or  reason  can  determine,  the  same  permanency  of  interest. 

But  there  is  another  consideration  mentioned  in  this  article,  to  w-hich  I  presume 
this  permanent,  common  interest  is  subordinate,  and  to  which  it  stands  rather  in  the 
relation  of  means  to  end.  This  is  comprehended  in  the  word  attachment.  This  is 
the  desideratum.  Attachment  to  the  community  is  the  best  guarantee,  and  indeed 
the  only  guarantee.  A  person  may  possess  the  propei'ty  of  a  freehold  without  the 
attachment,  and  the  attachment  without  the  property.  No  man  can  intentionally,  by 
his  vote,  injure  that  community  to  which  he  is  attached.  And  as  property  in  the 
earth  was  supposed,  and  justly  supposed,  in  most  instances,  to  attach  persons  to  the 
Community,  it  has  been  selected  as  one  proof,  (and  it  is  but  one,)  and  not  the  strongest 
proof  of  such  attachment.  Nativity  is  a  stronger,  a  much  stronger,  and  a  more  invari- 
able evidence  of  attachment  to  a  community,  than  wealth  or  any  other  consideration.  It 
is  upon  this  incontrovertible  fact,  which  I  presume  no  person  will  impugn,  that  I  base 
my  second  resolution.  My  first  embraces  all  the  present  voters  in  Virginia.  And, 
taking  for  granted  that  the  Bill  of  Rights  makes  attachment  to  the  community,  the 
great  consideration  which  qualifies  an  elector,  I  contend  that  it  is  the  letter  and  spirit 
of  this  article  to  extend  the  Right  of  Suffi-age  to  every  free  white  male  of  the  age  of 
twenty-two  years,  born  within  this  Commonwealth.  The  reason  why  I  fix  upon  the 
age  of  tioenty-two  years  rather  than  tiDenty-onc,  is  to  meet  a  fastidious  objection,  which 
1  had  anticipated  as  possible  to  be  presented  upon  a  very  literal  interpretation  of  the 
text.  It  might  be  said,  and  with  some  plausibility  too,  that  a  young  man  of  the  age 
of  twenty-one,  has,  by  no  act  of  his  life,  afforded  any  evidence  of  permanent,  com- 
mon interest  with,  or  attachment  to,  the  community,  who  has  just  arrived  at  the  age 
of  twenty-one,  inasmuch  as  he  has,  till  that  moment,  been  under  the  guardian  and 
compulsory  authority  of  his  parent  or  guardian.  His  living  one  year  after  he  has 
become  a  free  agent,  destroys  that  objection,  and,  in  addition  to  his  nativity,  affords 
all  necessary  evidence  of  his  attachment  to  the  community.  This  is  the  i-ationale  of 
the  second  resolution. 

To  fortify  or  illustrate  this  position,  or,  in  other  words,  to  prove  that  nativity  is  the 
best  guarantee  for  attachment  to  any  community,  I  deem,  at  this  time,  a  work  of  su- 
pererogation. I  feel  no  disposition  to  repeat  arguments  already  offered  on  this  and 
other  topics  connected  with  it.  After  the  very  able  argument  of  the  gentleman  from 
Loudoun,  (Mr.  Henderson,)  which,  like  a  tornado,  left  nothing  behind  it,  I  think  such 
an  effort  on  my  part  altogether  superfluous.  True,  Sir,  one  gentleman  from  South- 
ampton, (Mr.  Trezvant,)  cahed  it  ''empty  declamation"  but  I  would  like  to  see  him 
or  any  other  gentleman  attempt  by  a  fair  analysis  to  prove  it  declamatory,  and  not 
argumentative.  I  do  think  that  no  gentleman  can  refute  the  arguments  of  the  gen- 
tleman from  Loudoun.  They  carried  irresistible  conviction  to  my  mind;  and  I  think 
it  unnecessary  to  repeat  or  defend  them,  until  they  have  at  least  been  formally  as- 
sailed.   The  memorials  laid  upon  that  table,  suflaciently  argue  this  question. 

My  third  resolution,  Mr,  Chairman,  has  respect  to  another  class  of  inhabitants  in 
this  Commonwealth.  And  the  only  difficulty,  as  indeed,  the  only  question  of  much 
consideration,  which  occurs  in  setthng  who  shall  be  citizens  of  this  Commonwealth, 
is,  what  shall  be  required  of  those  not  natives  of  Virginia,  nor  embraced  in  the  pre- 
sent laws  conferring  the  Right  of  Suffrage  You  see,  I  prefer  residence  and  a  moral 
qualification,  to  a  pecuniary  or  property  qualification.    The  payment  of  any  given  tax 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


imposed  on  the  purchasing  of  a  piece  of  land,  does  not  present  to  my  understanding, 
according  to  my  views  of  human  nature,  such  evidence  of  common  interest  with, 
and  attachment  to,  the  community,  as  that  submitted,  and  it  certainly  does  not  pre- 
sent such  temptations  to  corruption,  or  to  that  buying  of  votes  of  which  some  gen- 
tlemen speak,  as  the  fixing  of  a  certain  amount  of  tax  as  the  qualifying  consideration. 
Where  there  is  no  price  proposed,  there  is  no  temptation  offered,  and  therefore,  cor- 
ruption is  rendered  as  impossible  as  the  freehold  can  be  supposed  to  make  it.  If  we 
desire  to  see  men  act  a  dignified  part,  we  must  treat  them  according  to  the  dignity  of 
human  nature.  If  you  put  the  tax  at  one  dollar,  you  make  the  price  of  a  thousand 
votes  only  a  thousand  dollars.  But,  according  to  the  principle  of  this  resolution, 
every  improper  incentive  is  removed  out  of  the  way.  A  person  who  becomes  an  in- 
habitant of  this  State,  and  who  desires  to  become  a  citizen,  a  permanent  resident,  not 
upon  the  excitement  of  an  election  immediately  approaching,  calmly  and  dispassion- 
ately goes  to  the  court  in  the  county  in  which  he  resides,  and  declares  his  intention 
of  becoming  a  permanent  resident.  Twelve  months  afterwards,  he  returns  to  the 
same  court,  and  promises  to  submit  to,  and  support  the  Government  of,  this  Com- 
monwealth. Now,  I  ask,  is  not  this  the  strongest  evidence  which  the  native  of  any 
other  State  can  give  of  his  attachment  to,  and  of  his  feeling  a  common  interest  with, 
the  community.''  I  think  it  must  appear  so  to  all,  except  them  who  think  that  virtue, 
intelligence  and  patriotism,  spring  up  out  of  the  soil,  and  grow  like  mushrooms  upon 
its  surface,  after  a  person  has  paid  a  stipulated  price  for  it.  But  in  these  United  States, 
the  principle  embraced  in  this  resolution  is  regarded  as  a  higher  proof  of  attachment 
to  the  community,  than  the  pu.rchase  of  any  amount  of  real  estate.  When  a  foreigner 
from  any  other  country  expatriates  himself,  and  desires  to  become  a  citizen  of  these 
United  States,  the  purchasing  of  no  amount  of  real  or  personal  estate,  will  prove  his 
attachment  to  the  country.  He  must,  if  he  will  become  a  citizen,  go  into  court  and 
make  a  solemn  renunciation  of  every  foreign  Prince  and  Potentate,  of  all  allegiance 
to  any  foreign  Government,  and  promise  to  submit  to  and  support  the  Constitution  of 
these  United  States.  This,  in  the  estimation  of  the  good  and  wise  framers  of  our 
State  and  Federal  Governments,  is  the  highest  proof  of  attachment  to,  and  of  feeling 
a  common  interest  with,  the  community,  which  can  be  afforded.  Now,  although  I 
would  not  require  all  the  same  formalities,  I  contend  that  the  principle  of  the  tliird 
resolution  warrants  us  to  entertain  more  confidence  in  the  person  who  thus  becomes 
a  citizen,  than  the  mere  possession  of  any  freehold.  For,  unless  gentlemen  will  argue 
that  moral  qualities  ai-e  in  the  soil,  and  spring  up  in  a  man's  mind  from  the  ownership 
of  it,  they  cannot,  I  presume,  prefer  it  to  the  plan  proposed  upon  any  principle  im- 
plied in,  or  derivable  from,  the  Bill  of  Rights.  The  second  and  third  resolutions,  I 
conclude  from  these  and  other  considerations,  are  equitably  based  upon  the  sixth 
section  of  the  Bill  of  Rights. 

One  word  upon  the  tburth  resolution,  and  I  dismiss  this  part  of  the  subject.  I 
cannot  consent  to  disfranchise  all  paupers.  Ingratitude  is  one  of  the  greatest  crimes 
against  Heaven  and  man.  If  then.  Sir,  any  pauper  shall  have  rendered  any  impor- 
tant service  to  his  country ;  if  he  shall  have  fought  her  battles,  and  his  virtues  have 
made  him  a  pauper,  it  would  be  as  cruel,  as  ungrateful,  as  it  would  be  impolitic,  to 
disfranchise  him.  It  would  be  a  bad  precedent ;  it  would  evince  a  destitution  of  the 
noblest  principle  which  can  dignify  a  man,  or  exalt  a  nation. 

This,  Mr.  Chairman,  is  the  whole  rationale  of  the  scheme  proposed.  I  was  not  so 
studious  of  the  terms,  as  of  a  clear  development  of  the  principle.  But,  I  will  be  told 
by  Dr.  Expedient,  that  however  reasonable,  or  however  just,  and  however  accordant 
with  the  spirit  of  the  age,  and  the  meaning  of  our  fundamental  principles  of  the 
social  compact,  it  is  not  expedient.  I  never  liked  this  doctrine  of  expediency.  Its 
grand-father  was  a  Jesuit.  It  was  the  popular  doctrine  in  the  Catholic  Dominions  of 
the  Roman  Hierarchy.  It  kindled  all  the  fires,  heated  the  furnace,  and  prepared  the 
red-hot  pincers  of  the  Holy  Inquisition.  His  Majesty  the  King  of  Great  Britain,  and 
his  Court,  on  the  doctrine  of  expediency,  established  Episcopacy  in  England,  Pres- 
byterianism  in  Scotland,  Popery  in  Canada,  and  Paganism  in  the  East  Indies.  Yes, 
Sir,  it  was  expedient  to  lay  a  capitation  tax  upon  the  worshippers  of  Jugo'ernaut,  just 
as  the  Turks  levied  a  capitation  tax  upon  the  pilgrims  who  went  to  visit  the  Holy 
Sepulchre.  This,  Sir,  I  believe,  furnished  the  first  model,  and  is  the  true  origin  of 
the  Virginia  "  'poll-tax.'''  This  doctrine  of  expediency  is  an  off-set  against  all  reason, 
argument,  and  principle  too.  It  was  not  expedient  for  England  to  let  France  govern 
itself.  It  was  not  expedient  to  permit  any  other  sort  of  Government  to  be  erected 
so  near  the  British  Throne,  than  that  which  accorded  with  the  genius  of  the  English 
Monarchy.  Thus,  the  flame  of  war  spreads  over  Europe,  and  England,  from  her 
regard  to  the  doctrine  of  expediency,  made  Buonaparte  the  wonder  of  the  world. 
Had  she  permitted  France  to  manage  her  own  affairs,  the  ambition  of  Napoleon  would 
not,  in  all  human  probability,  have  ti-anscended  the  ancient  limits  of  France.  But, 
she  made  him  acquainted  with  his  own  military  prowess,  and  forced  him  to  extend 
his  sceptre  in  the  year  1813,  over  64,000,000  of  human  beings.    But,  Sir,  it  would  be 


388 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


endless  to  detail  the  enormities  which  have  been  perpetrated ,  the  blood  that  has  been 
shed,  the  havoc  of  human  life  which  has  been  made,  in  obedience  to  the  suggestions 
of  this  popular  doctrine  of  expediency.  It  has  invaded  and  destroyed  every  right  of 
man.  Pardon  me,  Sir,  for  mentioning  the  rights  of  man.  For  it  would  seem,  that 
man  has  no  rights  but  v/hat  the  different  Governments  in  the  world  please  to  bestow 
upon  him.  His  rights  in  Russia,  Turkey,  France  and  England,  are  just  what  the 
Governments  please  to  bestow  upon  him.  Believe  this  who  may,  I  cannot.  He  has, 
in  my  judgment,  certain  inherent  and  inalienable  rights,  of  which  he  cannot  be 
divested  with  impunity.  Amongst  those  is  the  right  of  a  voice  in  the  Government, 
to  which  he  is  to  submit. 

But  I  am  told  that  Universal  Suffrage,  (I  am  no  advocate  for  Universal  Suffrage,)  or 
more  correctly  General  Suffrage,  was  the  invention  of  the  age  of  the  Lord  Protector 
Cromwell — that  it  sprung  up  for  the  first  time,  during  the  Commonwealth  of  England. 
It  is  called  novel  doctrine.  Were  it  so,  that  would  not  prove  it  false.  Steamboats  are 
a  novel  invention,  and  many  other  useful  arts  are  comparative  novelties.  The  new 
race  of  men  which  modern  science  has  created  and  made,  is  a  new  invention.  I 
mean  the  wooden,  brazen  and  iron  men,  which  neither  eat,  drink,  sleep,  nor  get  tired; 
which  are  adults  without  being  infants,  full  grown  men  as  soon  as  born.  These  new 
men,  these  novelties,  are  likely  to  be  a  very  useful  race;  for  when  inspired  by  steam, 
they  are  as  rational  as  our  black  population.  England  has  two  hundred  millions  of 
them,  and  these  United  States  have  more  than  ten  millions  of  them.  They  are  all 
revolutionists  and  will  as  certainly  revolutionize  the  world  as  ever  did  the  art  of  printing, 
or  any  conquering  invader.  They  are  all  novel  too.  No  prophetic  eye,  nor  prophetic 
pen,  can  describe  their  progress,  or  foretell  their  destiny.  All  novelties  are  not  fic- 
tions. But,  Sir,  notwithstanding  the  general  historic  accuracy  of  gentlemen  on  the 
other  side,  they  have  mistaken  the  date  of  the  origin  of  General  Suffrage.  It  is  more 
ancient  than  the  British,  the  Roman,  the  Grecian,  or  the  Persian  Governments.  It  is 
now  three  thousand  three  hundred  and  twenty-nine  years  old.  I  have  heard  gentle- 
men quote  the  Mosaic  history  on  this  floor.  It  will  be  no  sin,  I  hope,  for  me  to  quote 
the  same  authority.  Now,  Sir,  if  gentlemen  will  look  into  the  Exodus  of  Israel, 
they  will  find  that  the  Virginia  Constitution  was  not  the  first  imitten  Constitution, 
nor  the  General  Suffrage  the  invention  of  Oliver  Cromwell.  Cromwell,  Sir,  was  a 
prodigious  genius,  but  this  he  did  not  invent.  When  Israel  became  a  Commonwealth, 
and,  Sir,  they  were  a  Commonwealth,  and  were  so  denominated  two  thousand  years 
ago  by  a  very  high  authority,  I  say  when  Israel  became  a  Commonwealth,  they  re- 
ceived a  Constitution  from  him  who  led  them  through  the  Red  Sea.  Israel  in  the 
wilderness  amounted  to  six  hundred  thousand  fighting  men.  The  God  of  Israel 
first  proposed  a  social  compact.  It  was  called  in  Hebrew  Berith,  in  Greek  Diatheke, 
in  Latin  Constitutio,  in  Scotch  Covenant,  after  the  manner  of  the  "  Solemn  League 
and  Covenant."  It  is  precisely  equivalent  to  our  English  word  Constitution.  This 
was  lorltten,  and  it  is  the  oldest  written  document  upon  earth.  After  it  was  written, 
it  was  submitted  to  every  man  upon  the  muster  roll  of  Israel.  Their  vote  was  re- 
quired and  they  voted  for  its  adoption  as  their  national  compact.  So  old,  Sir,  and  so 
venerable  is  the  origin  of  General  Suffrage. 

It  is  no  novel  doctrine  in  this  country.  My  colleague  and  friend  from  Monongalia, 
(Mr.  Morgan,)  this  morning,  presented  us  with  the  history  of  General  Suffrage  in 
these  United  States.  He  has  anticipated  my  remarks  on  this  topic.  It  is  enough  for 
me  to  observe,  that  no  less  than  half  the  States  in  this  Union,  have  totally  discarded 
the  property  qualificcition  of  electors.  And  half  of  these,  Sir,  are  slave  States.  And 
it  has  appeared  too.  Sir,  that  so  far  from  impairing  the  safety  of  property  or  the  pro- 
gress of  improvement,  or  the  peace  and  happiness  of  these  States,  it  has  contributed 
to  the  prosperity  of  all  of  them. 

The  gentleman  from  Southampton,  (Mr.  Trezvant,)  informed  us,  that  all  history 
shewed,  that  in  all  Governments  where  General  Suffrage  prevailed,  a  military  despo- 
tism ensued,  and  ultimately  the  liberties  of  the  people  were  destipyed.  I  know  not. 
Sir,  whence  this  gentleman  has  derived  his  historic  information,  but  one  thing  I  will 
venture  to  affirm,  that  he  can  shew  no  one  instance  of  the  practice  of  General  Suf- 
frage issuing  in  a  despotism,  civil  or  military,  where  the  Government  v^n.s  representa- 
tive. Such  an  instance  will  be  necessary,  if  not  to  sustain  his  position,  at  least  to 
give  it  any  application  to  the  question  now  before  the  Committee. 

But,  Sir,  what  was  the  overthrow  of  every  Government  that  has  hitherto  fallen  into 
ruins  ?  And  many  Governments  have  been  subverted ;  many  great  empires  have 
gone  to  perdition.  When  the  real,  the  true  cause  is  ascertained,  the  cause  which  all 
history  developes,  it  will  appear  that  a  disregard  of  the  rights  of  man  was  the  sole 
cause  of  their  subversion.  Yes,  Sir,  one  party,  and  always  the  governing  party  of  the 
community ,  invaded  the  rights  of  the  other.*  An  infraction  of  these  inherent  rights,  these 
natural  rights  of  man,  has  proved  the  overthrow,  the  ruin  of  every  Government  now  ex- 
tinct in  the  world.  Search  the  annals  of  all  time,  and  not  an  instance  can  be  found  con- 
trary to  this  fact.    No  Government  which  has  paid  a  due  regard  to  the  rights  of  man 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


389 


has  ever  been  subverted.  Where  are  all  the  ancient  empires  of  the  world?  The 
Egyptian,  Assyrian,  Persian,  Grecian,  Roman?  All,  all,  Sir,  dilapidated,  all  gone  to 
ruin.  And  what  was  the  cause  ?  Either  they  were  not  founded  on  a  just  regard  of 
social  rights,  or  ceased  justly  to  regard  man  according  to  his  nature.  Their  perdition 
is,  and  ought  to  be,  a  beacon,  a  caveat  to  us.  I  said  upon  another  occasion,  that  every 
departure  from  the  principles  of  the  true  philosophy  of  man  was  dangerous.  The 
illustration  which  I  used  has  been  perverted  by  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania. 
I  did  not  say  that  the  laws  and  rules  of  mathematical  science  were  to  be  apphed  to 
civil  Government,  but  that  there  was  as  much  certainty,  as  much  truth  in  morals,  in 
politics  too,  as  in  mathematics.  It  is  not  always  so  perceptible,  but  it  is  nevertheless 
just  as  certain,  and  as  unchangeable.  And,  Sir,  however  slow,  however  gradual,  the 
departure  from  correct  and  fundamental  principles,  if  persisted  in,  if  continued,  it 
must  result  in  very  great  and  fatal  enormities. 

I  was  sorry  to  hear,  the  other  day,  the  eloquent  gentleman  from  Charlotte,  (Mr. 
Randolph,)  protest  against  his  majesty  King  Aumhcrs,  and  declared  his  readiness  to 
revolt  from  his  government,  and  to  migrate  from  his  dominions.  King  Numbers, 
Mr.  Chairman,  is  the  legitimate  sovereign  of  all  this  country.  General  Jackson,  the 
President  of  these  United  States,  is  only  the  representative,  the  laicful  representative 
of  King  Numbers.  And,  whither.  Sir,  can  that  gentleman  fly  from  the  government 
of  this  King ?  In  the  North,  in  the  South,  in  the  East  and  in  the  West,  he  can  find 
no  other  monarch.  Except  he  cross  the  ocean,  he  can  put  himself  under  no  other 
King.  And  whenever  he  may  please  to  expatriate  himself,  he  will  find  beyond  the 
domtnions  of  King  Numbers,  there  is  no  other  monarch,  save  King  Cypher,  King 
Blood,  Kmg  Sword,  or  King  Purse.  And,  Sir,  permit  me  to  add,  there  is  none  of 
those  so  august  as  our  King.  I  love  King  Numbers;  I  wish  to  live,  and  I  hope  to 
die,  under  the  government  of  this  majestic  personage.  He  is,  Sir,  a  wise,  benevolent, 
patriotic  and  powerful  prince — the  most  dignified  personage  under  the  canopy  of 
Heaven, 

I  heard  that  same  gentleman,  Mr.  Chairman,  with  pleasure  too,  refer  to  a  saying  of 
the  immortal  Bacon.  Twice  he  alluded  to  it;  twice  he  spoke  of  the  great  innovator, 
time.  I  did  wish  to  hear  him  quote  the  whole  sentence,  and  apply  it.  Lord  Bacon 
said,  (I  think  I  give  it  in  his  own  words) — Mcximus  innovator  tempus ;  Quidni  igitur 
tempus  imitemur?''  Why  then,  says  he,  can  we  not  imitate  time,  the  greatest  of  all 
innovators  ?  The  Romans  long  ago  learned  this  lesson.  Their  moralists  taught  it  to 
their  children — "  Tempera  miitantur,  et  nos  mutamur  in  illis."  Why,  then,  Sir,  cannot 
we  learn  to  imitate  time  ? 

I  am  glad,  Sir,  to  find  myself  associated  with  many  gentlemen  on  this  floor,  who 
are  inspired  with  the  spirit  of  this  age,  who  have  not  only  grown  up  under  this  age, 
but  grown  up  with  it.  They  are  willing  to  learn  what  time,  the  great  teacher,  and 
the  greatest  revolutionist,  teacheth.  And,  Sir,  she  is  an  eloquent  preceptor.  These 
gentlemen.  Sir,  who  feel  the  current  of  time,  who  are  in  heart,  in  unison,  with  this 
age,  have  no  idea  of  making  Chinese  shoes  for  American  feet;  or  of  constructing  a 
new  bedstead  after  the  m^anner  of  Procrustes,  for  men  of  American  stature. 

But,  Sir,  there  is  one  most  august  tribunal  to  which  we  must  all  bow.  Time  will 
make  us  all  do  homage  before  it.  This,  I  need  not  inform  you,  is  the  tribunal  of 
public  opinion.  This  is  the  supreme  tribunal  in  all  this  extensive  country.  No  sen- 
timent is  canonical  in  this  country,  which  this  tribunal  reprobates.  All  our  acts 
must  be  judged  by  it,  and  I  rejoice  to  live  in  a  country  in  which  this  is  the  supreme 
law — and  in  which  no  political  maxim  can  prevail  which  does  not  quadrate  at  all  an- 
gles with  the  dicta  of  this  tribunal. 

I  am  assured,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  it  is  in  the  power  of  this  body  to  make  this  land 
one  day,  the  happiest  land  on  the  earth — to  infuse  into  our  institutions,  such  principles 
as  would  elevate,  enlighten,  and  happify  this  community,  greatly  beyond  any  thing 
yet  experienced  on  this  continent.  I  mean  to  say.  Sir,  that  from  the  lights  which 
concentrate  their  influences  upon  us — from  the  wisdom  and  talent  assembled  here, 
we  have  every  facility  for  carrying  to  a  much  greater  extent  improvements  into  the 
social  compact.  Were  this  assembly  far  inferior  to  what  it  is,  such  a  result  might 
reasonably  be  expected.  Standing  as  we  do,  upon  the  shoulders  of  all  former  Con- 
ventions, and  being  furnished  with  all  the  experiments  which  have  been  made  in  an- 
cient and  modern  times,  much  is  reasonably  expected  from  us.  But  I  fear  these  mono- 
syllables mine  and  thine,  are  about  to  frustrate  all  attempts  at  a  thorough  amelioration 
of  our  condition. 

I  did  hope  that  we  would  feel  a  little  more  in  accordance  with  the  progress  of  im- 
provement and  the  spirit  of  the  age,  than  to  put  forth  all  our  energies  in  a  contest 
about  mere  local  interests,  which  a  few  years  will  change  in  defiance  of  all  our  ef- 
forts. Yes,  Sir ;  a  few  years  will  settle  all  these  questions  about  miney  and  thiney. 
But  should  the  improvement  of  the  condition  of  society  have  been  taken  into  con- 
sideration— should  the  adaptation  of  our  political  institutions  to  the  actual  condition 
and  circumstances  of  the  great  mass  of  the  community  have  engrossed  our  attention 


390 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


or  entered  into  our  hearts,  I  doubt  not  but  we  could  have  endeared  our  memory  to  the 
latest  posterity.  To  mention  only  one  instance  ;  we  have  been  told  that  it  is  quite 
practical  now  to  give  birth  to  a  system  of  education,  which  in  tiventy  years  from  this 
day  would  render  it  impossible  for  a  child  to  be  born  in  this  Commonwealth  and  to 
live  to  manhood,  without  receiving  a  good  education,  and  that  too,  Sir,  without  the 
laying  any  tax  after  that  day  for  the  support  of  such  a  system.  I  have  understood, 
Sir,  and  from  good  authority  too,  that  in  some  parts  of  Massachusetts,  particularly  in 
the  environs  of  Boston,  any  child,  without  the  contribution  of  a  single  cent,  may  re- 
ceive not  only  a  good  English,  but  a  classical  education.  Such  is  the  extent  to  which 
the  common  school  system  has  been  carried  in  that  enlightened  community. 

Yes,  Mr.  Chairman,  we  might  now  bless  Virginia  with  a  social  compact  which 
would,  in  the  gradual  progress  of  time,  develop  and  improve  the  intellectual  and 
moral  powers  of  every  member  of  the  community,  and  contribute  to  the  political  good 
of  the  whole  Commonwealth.  Is  not  such  an  object  worthy  of  such  a  Convention  ? 
And  would  not  the  origination  of  such  a  splendid  scheme  carry  down,  for  a  thousand 
generations,  the  grateful  admiration  of  our  services.?  But,  if  we  exhaust  our  energies 
on  these  little  localities,  time,  the  great  innovator,  will  break  our  arrangements  to 
pieces:  For  it  is  decreed,  that  every  system  of  Government  not  based  upon  the  true 
philosophy  of  man — not  adapted  to  public  opinion,  to  the  genius  of  the  age,  shall  fall 
into  ruins. 

But,  Sir,  one  gentleman,  (Mr.  Randolph,)  referred  us  to  the  great  men,  which  the 
present  system  in  Virginia  had  produced.  We  doubt  it  not,  Sir.  I  have  lived  in  a 
country  in  which  there  were  many  great  men  :  very  learned  and  very  powerful  men. 
But  how  were  they  created.  Sir.?  For  one  noble  Lord,  there  were  ten  thousand  igno- 
ble paupers,  and  for  one  great  scholar,  there  were  ten  thousand  ignoramuses.  That 
is  the  secret,  Sir.  I  never  wish  to  see  this  mode  of  making  great  men  introduced 
into  this  Commonwealth.  I  trust.  Sir,  we  will  rather  strive  to  make  many  middling 
men,  than  a  few  great  or  noble  men.  When  we  adopt  the  English  way  of  making 
great  men,  we  will  soon  adopt  the  English  way  of  speaking  to  them.  I  have  heard 
of  but  one  "  noble  friend"  in  this  Committee,  as  yet ;  but.  Sir,  it  is  a  contagious  spirit. 
There  are  many  sorts  of  great  men.  It  is  not  necessary  to  create  them  in  advance 
of  the  demands  of  society.  Peculiar  crises  call  them  into  being.  This  sort  of  great 
men,  has  always  been  the  creature  of  circumstances.  One  of  them  was  once  found 
on  Mount  Horeb,  another  on  the  way  to  Damascus — one  at  Mount  Vernon,  and 
another  was  found  in  the  county  of  Hanover,  with  a  fishing  rod  in  his  hand.  The 
Island  of  Corsica  produced  one,  when  he  was  wanted.  There  is  no  occasion  to  de- 
vise any  plan  for  creating  this  sort  of  great  men.  But,  Sir,  under  a  proper  system  of 
Government,  we  should  be  able  to  multiply  other  sorts  of  great  men  a  hundred  fold, 
and  we  should  not  fail  to  derive  benefits  of  every  sort,  intellectual,  moral,  and  political, 
incomparably  surpassing  any  sacrifice  we  should  be  obliged  to  make  in  commencing 
such  a  system. 

One  word  more,  Sir,  and  I  will  not  further  trespass  upon  the  patience  of  the  Com- 
mittee. The  scheme  which  is  contemplated  in  these  resolutions,  is  not  only,  I  think, 
adapted  to  the  general  good  of  the  whole  State,  but  especially  to  the  Eastern  part  of 
it.  I  was  much  pleased  with  the  suggestion  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  (Mr. 
Gordon,)  it  was  founded  on  a  correct  knowledge  of  man.  When  we  disfranchise  one 
class  of  men,  or  deprive  them  of  their  political  and  natural  rights,  to  secure  any  pro- 
perty or  privilege  we  possess,  we  endanger  that  very  property  and  those  very  privi- 
leges, more  by  such  disfranchisements,  than  we  protect  them.  We  give  an  invidious 
character  to  those  interests  and  privileges,  and  we  create  antipathies  against  ourselves. 
It  is  in  the  nature  of  man  to  hate,  and  to  attempt  to  impair  and  destroy,  that  which 
is  held  at  his  expense,  and  which  degrades  him  in  his  own  estimation.  For  the  safety, 
then,  and  preservation  of  those  very  interests,  I  would  conceive  this  extension  of  the 
Right  of  Suffrage  indispensable.  If  the  extension  sought  for  in  these  resolutions, 
can  be  obtained,  I  am  not  tenacious  of  the  words  or  of  the  form  in  which  it  is  sought, 
I  chose  thus  to  develop  the  principle.  I  aimed  at  no  more,  than  to  shew,  that  it  is 
in  accordance  with  the  Bill  of  Rights.  I  did  not  expect  to  have  addressed  the  Com- 
mittee at  this  time  ;  but  on  the  failure  of  the  scheme  submitted  by  the  gentleman  from 
Monongalia,  (Mr.  Wilson,)  I  thought  it  expedient  to  make  another  experiment.  Had 
it  been  my  object  to  do  more  than  to  expose  the  principle,  I  should  have,  in  a  more 
syllogistic  form,  fortified  and  defended  the  grounds  on  which  it  is  based.  But,  even 
in  this,  I  have  been,  in  a  great  measure,  anticipated  by  the  gentlemen  who  have  pre- 
ceded me. 

The  question  being  then  taken,  it  passed  in  the  negative  by  a  very  large  majority, 
eleven  only  rising  in  the  affirmative. 

Mr.  Scott  then  gave  notice  that  in  case  the  resolution  offered  by  Mr.  Pleasants  yes- 
terday shall  be  rejected,  he  will  move  the  following: 

Resolved,  That  in  the  apportionment  of  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates, 
regard  should  be  had  to  the  white  population  exclusively,  and  in  the  Senate  to  taxa- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


391 


tion  exclusirsly  :  That  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  consist  of  one  hundred  mem- 
bers :  and  the  Senate  of  fortv-eight:  That  the  Senate  shall  hare  the  same  Legisla- 
tive powers  in  all  respects  as  the  House  of  Delegates — and  all  appointments  to  office, 
which  by  the  Constitution  shall  be  referred  to  the  two  Houses  of  the  Legislature, 
shall  be  made  by  a  concurrent  vote. 

The  Cormnittee  then  rose  and  the  House  adjourned. 


FRIDAY,  NoTE.MBER  20,  lS-29. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Taylor,  of  the  Baptist  Church. 

Mr.  Thompson  of  Amherst,  offered  the  following  resolution : 

Resolved,  That  duringf  the  remainder  of  the  session  of  this  Convention,  the  22d  rule 
thereof  shall  be  observed  in  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  and  that  "  it  shall  be  the  duty 
of  the  Clerk  hereafter  to  keep  a  Jom-nal  of  the  proceedings  of  said  Committee,  and  to 
insert  in  such  Journal,  if  they  can  be  ascertained,  all  the  proceedings  heretofore  had 
therein.'' 

Mr.  Wilson  called  for  the  reading  of  the  22d  rule. 

The  22d  rule  is  as  follows : 
Any  member  on  his  motion  made  for  that  purpose,  on  being  seconded,  pro-vnded 
seven  of  the  members  present  be  in  favor  of  the  motion,  shall  have  a  right  to  have 
the  Ayes  and  Noes  taken  upon  the  determination  of  any  question,  provided  he  shall 
give  notice  of  his  intention  to  call  the  Ayes  and  Noes,  before  the  question  be  put,  and 
in  such  case  tlie  House  shall  not  divide,  or  be  counted  on  the  question,  but  the  names 
of  the  members  shall  be  called  over  by  the  Secretary,  and  the  Ayes  and  Noes  shall  be 
respectively  entered  on  the  Journal,  and  the  question  shall  be  decided  as  a  majority 
of  votes  shall  thereupon  appeur:  provided  that  after  the  Ayes  and  Noes  shall  be  sepa- 
rately taken,  and  before  they  are  counted,  or  entered  on  the  Journal,  the  Secretary 
shall  read  over  the  names  of  those  who  voted  in  the  affirmative,  and  of  those  who 
voted  in  the  negative;  and  any  member  shall  have  liberty  at  such  reading  to  correct 
any  mistake  which  may  have  been  committed  in  hsting  his  name,  either  in  the  affir- 
mative or  negative." 

In  supporting  the  resolution,  Mr.  T.  observed,  tliat  it  might  have  been  foreseen,  and 
must  now  be  obvious  to  all,  that  the  whole  of  the  important  business  of  this  Conven- 
tion would  be  done  in  a  Committee  of  the  Whole;  the  Convention,  as  such,  havinc 
little  left  for  it  to  do  but  to  give  its  sanction  to  the  acts  of  the  Conunittee  of  the  Whole, 
and  embody  them  in  a  regular  form.  If  then  the  privilege  of  recording  his  vote  was 
important  to  a  Delegate  any  where,  it  was  eminently  so  here  :  for,  the  Conunittee  was 
nothing  else  but  the  Convention  in  another  form.  The  adoption  of  the  resolution, 
would  be  productive  of  an  economy  of  time.  All  the  members  came  charged  with 
some  grievance  liis  constituents  desired  to  have  redressed.  If  they  were  allowed  the 
opportunity  of  satisfying  their  constituents,  that  they  had  made  an  attempt  to  discharo-e 
the  duty  entrusted  to  them  in  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  there  would  be  no  need 
of  repeating  their  motions  to  that  effect,  in  the  Convention :  tlie  District  havinof  seen 
the  course  pursued  by  their  Delegate,  would  be  satisfied,  and  much  time  would  be 
saved.  Such  a  measure  was  not  unsupported  by  precedents.  A  similar  rec'ulation 
had  been  adopted  in  the  Federal  Convention,  when  the  Constitution  of  the^Lnited 
States  was  framed  :  the  Yeas  and  Nays  were  recorded,  and  a  regular  Journal  kept  in 
the  Committee  of  the  Whole.  Another  precedent  was  to  be  found  in  the  records  of 
the  New  York  Convention,  in  1S20.  He  hoped  that  gentlemen,  who  professed  to 
hope  every  thing  from  a  re-action  in  the  pubhc  mind,  would  offer  no  opposition  to  a 
proposal  of  this  description. 

Mr.  Leigh  was  opposed  to  the  resolution.  He  had  supposed  that  if  there  was  any 
body  of  law  in  the  world  approved  by  the  experience  of  mankind,  and  altocfether  un- 
exceptionable, it  was  the  body  of  Parhamentary  Law.  The  Committee  of  fhe  Whole 
was  one  of  the  most  valuable  institutions  ever  devised  for  facilitating  the  business  of 
a  deliberative  body.  It  gave  opportunity  for  full,  fair  and  free  discussion,  untram- 
melled by  the  forms  necessarily  attendant  upon  the  definitive  action  of  a  Leo'islative 
Assembly.  Yet  here,  said  Mr.  Leigh,  we  have  a  proposition  to  abohsh  all  distinction 
between  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  and  the  House  in  its  Conventional  capacity. 
Its  effect  will  be  to  make  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  the  Convention — the  only  re- 
maining difference  will  be  that  the  presiding  officer  of  the  one  is  called  a  Chairman, 
and  tlie  other  a  President.  I  differ  entirely  Irom  the  gentleman's  view  of  the  matter. 
I  hold  that  there  is  a  great  and  essential  difference  between  the  two,  and  in  that  dif- 
ference it  is  that  the  excellence  and  advantage  of  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  entirely 
consists.   But  there  is  precedent  for  it.   The  gentleman  has  quoted  two,  but  the  first 


392 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


of  them  is  no  precedent  at  all;  for  the  Convention  of  '87  voted  not  by  members,  but 
by  States,  and  it  was  necessary  to  declare,  which  States  were  for,  and  which  were 
against  any  proposition,  in  order  to  determine  the  question.  It  is  true  that  such  a  rule 
was  adopted  by  the  Convention  of  New  York,  which  sat  at  Albany  in  1820.  Why,  I 
do  not  know ;  but  this  I  do  know,  that  there  was  in  that  Convention  such  bidding  in 
the  auction  of  popularity,  as  never  was  known  on  earth  before.  It  seems  to  have 
been  adopted  there  in  order  to  record  the  bids,  but  here  there  is  no  bidding  that  I 
know  of,  and  if  there  shall  be  any,  there  can  be  no  need  of  recording  it ;  for  the  opi- 
nions we  deliver  here,  are  as  well  known  by  the  public,  as  if  they  were  recorded  on 
our  Journal. 

Mr.  Thompson  thought  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  had  not  been  very  happy 
in  his  appeal  to  experience ;  he  had  said  that  no  such  example  could  be  furnished. 
There  have  been  many  deliberative  bodies,  they  are  of  ancient  origin  ;  but  there  have 
been  only  a  few  Conventions,  and  they  belong  to  modern  times.  We  have  adduced 
the  experience  of  two  of  these  Conventions;  whether  the  same  expedient  be  resorted 
to  in  the  others  which  have  been  holden,  I  cannot  tell :  but  it  is  very  probable.  But, 
how  has  the  gentleman  succeeded  in  shewing,  that  the  case  of  the  Federal  Conven- 
tion was  so  entirely  dissimilar,  as  to  furnish  no  precedent  for  this  body  ?  The  gentle- 
man says,  it  is  because  the  votes  there  taken,  were  given,  not  by  individuals,  but  by 
States.  But,  surely  there  was  no  more  need  to  record  the  votes  on  that  account,  than 
if  they  had  been  given  by  individuals.  I  can  see  no  distinction  whatever,  in  princi- 
ple; we  may  just  as  well  record  our  votes,  as  they  recorded  theirs.  The  experience 
we  have  already  had  in  this  Convention,  proves  the  utility  of  the  plan ;  for  we  have 
already  been  compelled  to  resort  to  it.  We  have  been  greatly  crowded  by  company, 
who  have  almost  mingled  themselves  with  the  members.  This  may  be  the  case  again, 
and  we  may  be  again  compelled  to  take  the  same  course.  It  occupies  little  more  time 
to  record  the  names  than  it  does  to  call  them,  and  surely  we  have  not  shewn  ourselves 
penurious  of  time.  As  to  the  auction  of  popularity,  of  which  the  gentleman  spoke,  I 
have  nothing  to  say,  because  he  has  disclaimed  any  personal  allusion.  Whether  he  is 
right  in  his  opinion  of  the  New  York  Convention  in  this  respect,  I  cannot  tell.  I 
have  read  the  Journal  of  their  Debates,  and  I  did  not  perceive  the  evidence  of  any 
thing  of  the  kind.  I  thought  their  proceedings  were  such  as  did  honour  to  the  State, 
and  I  consider  them  well  worthy  of  our  imitation. 

Mr.  Stanard  said,  that  judging  from  appearances  as  to  what  the  gentleman's  object 
was,  he  thought  he  had  taken  a  .very  round-about  way  to  get  at  it :  his  more  direct 
and  obvious  course  would  have  been  to  move  at  once  to  abrogate  the  Committee  of 
the  Whole.  His  resolution  did  that  in  effect;  for,  why  have  any  Committee  of  the 
Whole,  if  its  proceedings  are  to  be  attended  with  the  same  formality,  and  to  have  the 
same  effect  as  those  of  the  original  body  ?  The  gentleman  had  better  march  up  at 
once,  fairly,  to  his  object.  He  has  quoted  precedents,  said  Mr.  S.,  and  what  are  they  ? 
He  ventures  to  suppose  that  the  precedents  in  the  Conventions  of  all  the  States  are 
in  his  favour  :  it  is  a  bold  supposition.  Yet  it  is  a  little  extraordinary,  that  that  gen- 
tleman has  contented  himself  with  supposing,  and  has  forborne  to  examine.  This 
will  appear  strange  to  any  one  who  knows  with  what  accuracy  that  gentleman  fur- 
nishes information,  and  what  pains  he  takes  to  be  exact  in  all  his  facts.  If,  indeed, 
the  gentleman  has  examined,  he  cannot  be  ignorant  that  there  have  been  thirty  Con- 
ventions in  this  country,  which  have  had  the  same  service  to  perform  as  this  ;  and  yet 
out  of  that  whole  number,  there  have  been  but  two  which  have  so  much  as  thought  of 
recording  their  proceedings  in  Committee  of  the  Whole.  One  law  seems  to  have  go- 
verned bodies  of  that  kind,  ever  since  they  existed,  and  I  am  not  in  favour  of  any  in- 
novation. It  is  a  measure  likely  to  end  in  no  good,  and  there  is  not  the  least  shadow 
of  necessity  for  it. 

The  question  being  now  about  to  be  put, 

Mr.  Gordon  demanded  that  it  should  be  taken  by  Yeas  and  Nays.  It  was  accor- 
dingly so  taken,  when  the  Yeas  and  Nays  stood  as  follows : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Goode,  Anderson,  Coffman,  Williamson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne, 
Smith,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Henderson,  Cooke,  Opie,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  George, 
M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby, 
Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson, 
Clay  tor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Martin,  Gordon,  Thompson  and  Joynes — 39. 

JYoes — Messrs.  Monroe,  (Prest.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chester- 
field, Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Harrison, 
Baldwin,  Johnson,  Miller,  Mason,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh 
of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Barbour  of  Orange,  Stanard,  Holhday,  Powell, 
Griggs,  Pendleton,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper, 
Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Grigsby,  Townes,  Pleasants,  Massie,  Talia- 
ferro, Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 51. 

So  the  House  refused  to  rescind  the  rule  as  proposed,  and  to  record  their  proceed- 
ings in  Committee  of  the  Whole. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


393 


The  Convention  then  proceeded  to  the  Order  of  the  Day,  and  went  into  Com- 
mittee of  the  Whole,  Mr.  Powell  in  the  Chair;  and  the  question  still  being  on  the 
third  resolution  reported  by  the  Legislative  Committee,  and  amended  by  the  Conven- 
tiou,  in  the  following  words  : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Right  of  Suffrage  shall  continue  to  be  exercised  by  all  who 
now  enjoy  it  under  the  existing  Constitution ;  and  shall  be  extended,  Ist,  to  every 
free  white  male  citizen  of  the  Commonwealth,  resident  therein,  above  the  age  of 
twenty-one  years,  who  owns,  and  has  possessed  for  six  months,  or  who  has  acquired 
by  marriage ,^escent  or  devise,  a  freehold  estate,  assessed  to  the  value  of  not  less  than 
dollars,  for  the  payment  of  taxes,  if  such  assessment  shall  be  required  by 
law;  2d,  or  who  shall  own  a  vested  estate  in  fee,  in  remainder,  or  reversion,  in  land, 
the  assessed  value  of  which  shall  be  dollars  ;  3d,  or  who  shall  own,  and  have 

possessed  a  leasehold  estate,  with  the  evidence  of  title  recorded,  of  a  term  originally 
not  less  than  five  years,  and  one  of  wJiich  shall  be  unexpired,  of  the  annyal  value  or 
rent  of  dollars ;  4th,  or  who  for  twelve  months  next  preceding,  has  been  a 

house-keeper  and  head  of  a  family  within  the  county,  city,  borough  or  election  dis- 
trict, where  he  may  offer  to  vote,  and  who  shall  have  been  assessed  with  a  part  of  the 
revenue  of  the  Commonwealth  within  the  preceding  year,  and  actuall}^  paid  the  same : 
Provided,  nevertheless.  That  the  Ptight  of  Suffrage  shall  not  be  exercised  by  any  person 
of  unsound  mind,  or  who  shall  be  a  pauper,  or  a  non-commissioned  officer,  soldier, 
sailor  or  marine,  in  the  service  of  the  United  States,  nor  by  any  person  convicted  of 
any  infamous  offence;  nor  by  citizens  born  without  the  Commonwealth,  unless  they 
shall  have  resided  therein  for  five  years  immediately  preceding  the  election  at  which 
they  shall  offer  to  vote,  and  two  years  preceding  tlie  said  election,  in  the  county,  city, 
borough  or  election  district,  where  they  shall  offer  to  vote,  (the  mode  of  proving  such 
previous  residence,  when  disputed,  to  be  prescribed  by  law),  and  shall  possess,  more- 
over, some  one  or  more  of  the  qualifications  above  enumerated." 

Mr.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield  moved  to  amend  the  resolution  by  striking  out  all  after 
the  words    Resolved,  that,"  and  inserting  the  following  as  a  substitute  : 

"  Every  male  citizen  of  the  Commonwealth,  resident  therein  (other  than  free  ne- 
groes and  mulattoes.)  aged  21  years  and  upwards,  qualified  to  exercise  the  Right  of 
Suffrage  by  the  existing  Constitution  and  laws, — 

And  every  such  citizen  being  possessed,  or  Vviiose  tenant  for  years,  at  will  and  at 
sufferance,  is  possessed,  of  land  of  the  assessed  value  of  dollars,  and  having  an 

estate  of  freehold  therein, — 

And  every  such  citizen  being  possessed,  as  tenant  in  common,  joint-tenant  or  co- 
parcener, of  an  interest  in  or  share  of  land,  and  having  an  estate  of  freehold  therein, 
such  interest  or  share  being  of  the  value  of  dollars, — 

And  ever}'-  such  citizen,  being  entitled  to  a  reversion,  or  vested  remainder  in  fee, 
expectant  on  any  estate  for  life,  or  lives  in  land  of  the  assessed  value  of       dollars, — 

x\nd  every  such  citizen,  being  possessed  of  a  leasehold  estate  in  land,  claiming  un- 
der a  lease,  renewable  at  the  option  of  the  lessee,  absolutel}-,  or  upon  payment  of  a 
fine,  or  performance  of  other  condition,  the  yearly  value  of  such  land  being 
dollars, — 

Each  and  every  such  citizen,  unless  his  title  shall  have  come  to  him  by  descent, 
devise,  marriage  or  marriage  settlement,  having  been  so  possessed  or  entitled  for  six 
months, — 

And  no  other  persons. 

Shall  be  qualified  to  vote  for  members  of  the  General  Assemblj^,  in  tlie  county,  city, 
or  borough,  respectively,  wherein  the  land  lieth: — 

Provided,  That  no  person  shall  be  entitled  to  vote  more  than  once,  or  at  more  places 
than  one,  in  any  election  ; — 

And.  jjrovided,  That  non-commissioned  officers,  soldiers,  sailors,  and  marines,  in  the 
land  or  naval  service  of  the  United  States,  shall  not  be  qualified  to  vote ; — 

And,  j^rovided,  That  the  Legislature  may,  by  law,  deprive  any  persons  of  the  Right 
of  Suffrage,  for  crimes,  whereof  they  shall  or  ma}'  be  convicted." 

The  amendment  having  been  read,  and  the  question  upon  it  propounded  from  the 
Chair,  Mr.  Leigh  rose,  and  spoke  to  the  following  effect — 

Mr.  Chairman, — It  may  be,  perhaps,  that  in  submitting  this  proposition,  and  in  the 
earnest  endeavour  I  am  going  to  make  to  explain  the  principle  it  is  founded  on,  to 
maintain  it  as  the  vrisest  and  surest  foundation  of  a  Representative  Republic,  and  par- 
ticularly suited  to  the  circumstances  of  this  Commonwealth,  and  thus  to  recommend 
it  to  the  favourable  consideration  of  the  Committee,  I  am  taking  a  task  upon  myself, 
utterly  nugatory,  as  well  as  laborious  and  ungracious.  For,  it  seems,  plainly  enough, 
to  be  the  general  opinion,  that  any  effort  to  preserve  a  landed  qualification  of  the 
Right  of  Suffrage  must  fail.  Yet,  "if  it  shall  fail,  the  principal  reason  of  its  failure,  I 
am  persuaded,  will  be  found  in  the  prevalence  of  the  opinion  that  it  certainly  will  fail, 
rather  than  that  it  ought  to  fail.  It  happens  in  most  political  questions  and  controversies 
in  our  day  and  nation,  that  the  first  exertion  of  men's  minds  is  to  ascertain  which  way 

50 


394 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


the  majority  is,  and  if  that  point  can  be  ascertained,  it  generally  in  fact  (and  in  the 
opinion  of  many,  rightly  too)  sways  and  determines  the  majority.  For  my  own  part, 
however,  the  landed  qualification  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage  stands  approved  in  my 
judgment,  by  principle  and  experience,  and  the  more  I  have  reflected  and  the  more 
I  have  observed  upon  the  subject,  the  more  strongly  approved ;  and  a  departure  from 
it  is  condemned,  in  my  view  of  things,  by  the  experience  of  the  other  States  of  this 
Union.  In  almost  every  instance,  in  which  our  sister  States  have  broken  up  old 
foundations,  and  departed  from  the  landed  qualification  of  Suffrage,  they  have  pro- 
ceeded eventually  and  instantaneously,  to  Universal  Suffrage — I  say,  instantaneously — 
for  speaking  in  regard  to  the  life  of  a  nation,  the  transition  is  instantaneous.  States 
never  go  upward,  in  affairs  of  this  kind — their  course  is  always  downward — the 
downward  course  is  easy,  the  downward  tendency  constant ;  and  dowri^own  they  go, 
to  those  extremes  of  democracy,  which  have  always  ended,  and  wiTl  always  end,  in 
licence  and  anarchy,  and  thence,  by  inevitable  consequence,  in  despotism.  The  first 
wish  of  my 'heart  is  for  a  practical,  regular,  stable,  Republican  Government;  to 
which,  in  my  apprehension,  violent  extremes  of  all  kinds  are  equally  dangerous  and 
hostile.  And  perceiving  (as  I  do  but  too  clearly  for  my  own  peace  of  mmd)  that  if 
we  too  depart  from  the  landed  qualification  of  Suffrage,  we  shall  not  stop  short  of 
Universal  Suffrage,  in  the  end — believing,  indeed,  that  it  is  Universal  Suffrage,  in  ef- 
fect, to  which  the  views  of  many  gentlemen  obviously  tend — and  feeling-  the  most 
anxious  forebodings  of  danger  to  all  regular  Government,  from  the  admission  of  the 
principle  into  our  institutions — I  am,  therefore,  desirous  to  extend  the  Right  of  Suf- 
frage only  to  those  who  are  within  the  equity  of  the  original  principle  of  the  freehold 
qualification,  on  which  the  founders  of  our  Government  placed  it. 

When  my  friend  from  Augusta  (Mr.  Johnson)  gave  the  Committee  his  interpreta- 
tion of  the  first  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  and  endeavoured  to  shew  us, 
that  the  proposal  to  apportion  the  representation  according  to  the  white  population 
only,  was  tantamount  to,  and  really  meant,  an  apportionment  of  representation  ac- 
cording to  the  qualified  voters ;  and  then  endeavoured  to  reconcile  us  to  that  scheme 
of  apportioning  the  representation,  thus  expounded  and  understood,  before  it  was  yet 
determined  who  should  be  the  qvialified  voters,  I  saw  at  once,  and  wondered  he  did 
not  see,  that  that  argument  went  beyond  and  beside  the  purpose  for  which  he  used 
it — that  it  would  chiefly  affect  the  question  concerning  the  qualification  of  the  Right 
of  Suffrage — that,  with  the  exception  of  himself,  and  a  very  few  others,  all  those  who 
are  for  apportioning  representation  according  to  white  population  only,  if  that  should 
be  understood  to  mean  according  to  the  qualified  voters,  would  be  intent  on  making 
every  white  man  a  qualified  voter.  That  this  was  the  effect  of  the  argument,  soon 
appeared  from  the  sentiments  avowed  by  one  of  his  own  colleagues  (Mr.  M'Coy). 
The  gentleman  from  Augusta  has  thus  lent  the  most  efficient  aid  to  the  principle  of 
Universal  Suffrage;  which,  I  am  sure,  he  deprecates  as  earnestly  as  1  do.  He  has 
borne  a  main  part  in  bringing  us  into  this  fearful  strait  between  Scylla  and  Charyhdis  ; 
and,  confidently  trusting  that  the  Siren's  voice  cannot  lure  him  to  the  fatal  shore,  I 
implore  him  to  lend  me  his  aid,  now — or  rather,  to  put  his  own  strong  and  skilful 
hand  to  the  helm,  and,  if  possible,  save  us  from  being  dashed  against  the  impending 
rock  of  destruction.  Our  hopes  of  avoiding  the  whirlpool  which  threatens  to  ingulph 
all,  must  rest  on  others. 

There  is.  Sir,  one  feature  in  the  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee  on  this 
subject,  so  strikingly  unjust,  I  may  say,  so  glaringly  absurd,  that  I  can  hardly  think 
it  was  intended;  but  I  mentioned  it  here,  some  days  ago,  and  no  friend  of  the  princi- 
ple of  the  resolution,  has  proposed  any  amendment  of  its  details  in  this  particular. 
Observe,  Sir — the  resolution  provides,  that  the  owners  of  the  smaller  freehold  estates 
in  land,  shall  not  be  allowed  to  vote,  unless  their  land  be  of  a  certain  assessed  value, 
though  the  owners  must  pay  some  land  tax,  no  matter  how  trivial  the  value  of  their 
land  may  be ;  but,  if  a  house-keeper  and  head  of  a  family  shall  reside  on  one  of  these 
small  freeholds,  as  tenant  of  the  owner  or  by  his  permission,  paying  any  revenue  tax, 
of  what  kind  or  how  trivial  soever,  such  house-keeper  and  head  of  a  family  shall  be 
allowed  to  vote,  though  his  landlord  shall  not.  Can  this  be  right.?  Can  it  possibly 
be  intended.?  I  must  still  think,  that  it  is  to  be  imputed  to  inaccuracy  in  the  details 
of  the  resolution,  which  will  be,  as  it  easily  may  be,  corrected:  and  1  mention  it  now 
again,  as  I  did  before,  chiefly  for  the  purpose  of  shewing  how  cautious  we  ought  to  be 
against  indulging  in  an  intemperate  zeal  for  innovation,  miscalled  reform,  lest  we  run 
into  gross  inconsistencies,  and  produce  new  and  greater  inconveniences  or  wrongs 
than  those  we  propose  to  remedy. 

Permit  me  now,  Sir,  to  explain  succinctlv  my  own  proposition. 

In  the  first  place,  I  propose,  that  all  who  now  enjoy  the  R,ight  of  Suffrage,  shall  con- 
tinue to  exercise  it.  According  to  the  existing  provisions  of  the  Constitution  and  laws 
on  this  subject,  it  is  land,  a  freehold  estate  in  land,  of  a  certain  quantity,  without  regard 
to  its  quality  or  value,  which  ascertains  the  right  of  the  owner  to  vote.*    We  are  told, 

*  For  the  existing  freehold  qualification  of  Suffrage  in  Virginia,  see  Rev.  Code,  vol.  I.  c.  51.  $  3— 
"  Every  male  citizen  of  this  Commonwealth,  aged  twenty-one  years,  (other  than  free  negroes  or  mu- 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


395 


that  these  regulations  operate  very  unequally ;  for  that,  in  some  parts  of  the  State, 
land  is  worth  ten,  twenty,  fifty  dollars  per  acre,  while  in  other  parts,  and  often  in  the 
same  county,  it  is  worth  less  than  a  dollar  per  acre.  And  this  is  very  true.  Again 
we  are  told,  that,  in  many  parts  of  the  State,  there  are  large  tracts  of  barren  land,  and 
in  the  Western  country,  particularly,  vast  bodies  of  mountainous  land  unfit  for  culti- 
vation ;  that  these  lands  atford  the  holders  of  them  the  means  of  creating  freeholders 
and  voters,  jyro  re  tiata,  to  answer  occasional  electioneering  purposes ;  and  that  this  is 
a  shameful  and  intolerable  abuse.  And,  since  the  meeting  of  this  Convention,  1  have 
heard  the  existence  of  this  abuse,  in  some  parts  of  the  Western  country,  to  a  very 
enormous  extent,  asserted  hy  a  delegate  from  that  quarter  of  the  State ;  but  to  my 
great  satisfaction  (though,  considering  from  whom  the  first  information  came,  much 
to  my  surprise)  I  have  since  heard  the  fact  of  such  abuses  being  either  frequent,  or 
carried  to  any  great  extent,  strenuously  denied,  on  this  floor,  by  another  gentleman 
from  the  same  quarter.  Some  abuses  of  the  kind,  I  doubt  not,  there  have  been,  in 
the  West  and  in  the  East  too  ;  but,  upon  reflection,  I  cannot  but  think,  that  they  must 
have  been  very  rare.  For,  the  provision  of  the  election  law,  which  requires  that  the 
title  in  the  land,  unless  derived  by  marriage,  descent  or  devise,  shall  have  been  ac- 
quired six  months  before  the  owner  of  it  presents  himself  at  the  polls  to  vote,  which 
was  intended  to  prevent  such  abuses,  must,  in  practice,  have  proved  generally  effec- 
tual to  prevent  them;  since  it  cannot  often  happen,  that  the  person  who  desires  to 
make  a  voter  by  makinsf  a  freeholder,  does  or  can  foresee  the  want  of  the  vote  so  long 
before  the  election  at  which  it  is  to  be  given.  Such  abuses  too,  are  in  their  nature, 
very  open  to  detection,  and  easy  to  be  exposed.  Although,  therefore,  I  am  sensible, 
that  the  existing  regulation  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  does  operate  unequally,  by 
reason  of  the  inequalities  in  the  value  of  lands — and  although  it  may  be  liable 
(for  what  regulation  is  not  liable.')  to  some  abuse — yet  I  am  very  sure,  that  it 
brings  to  the  polls,  the  great  body  of  the  settled  residents  of  the  Commonwealth,  the 
free,  allodial  cultivators  of  the  soil  for  their  own  use  ;  and  admits  but  few,  very  few 
others.  Imperfections  there  may  be  in  the  present  regulation — but  imperfections 
which  ought  not  to  condemn  it — such  imperfections  as  are  incident  to  all  general 
regulations,  and  indeed  to  all  human  institutions;  such  as  perhaps,  it  would  be  hardly 
possible  to  avoid.  Besides,  Sir,  I  hold  that  there  is  a  wide  difference  betv.'een  the  re- 
fusal in  the  first  instance,  to  confer  a  right,  which  ouglit  not  to  be  conferred,  and  the 
taking  away  a  right,  which  has  been  alread}'  conferred  and  long  enjoyed,  because  in 
justice  and  good  policy  it  ought  originally  to  have  been  withlield.  If  I  had  found  the 
Right  of  Suffrage  extended  ever  so  far  beyond  what  I  consider  the  proper  point,  how- 
ever I  might  have  lamented  it,  I  should  have  hesitated  long  before  I  touched  it.  Im- 
perious necessity  only  should  have  induced  me  to  assent  to  new  restrictions.  There 
is  no  such  necessity  here.  Thoufrh  a  freehold  of  twenty-five  acres  of  land  in  Jeffer- 
son, may  be  worth  five  hundred  dollars,  while  the  like  quantity  of  land  on  the  sandy 
ridges  of  the  East  or  in  the  broken  mountainous  districts  of  the  West,  may  not  exceed  in 
value  fifty  or  even  twenty  dollars,  still  the  owner  of  the  one,  cultivating  it  for  his 
maintenance,  has  a  common  interest  in  the  soil,  as  well  as  the  other,  and  is  affected 
by  whatever  affects  the  general  interests  of  the  State  or  the  local  interests  of  his  own 
county.  I  have  explained  my  views  on  this  jjoint  the  more  fullv.  because  I  know 
there  are  some  gentlemen  who  ditfer  with  me  in  opinion  concerning  it,  while  they 
concur  with  me  as  to  the  general  principle  of  a  landed  qualification. 

In  the  next  place,  I  propose  to  extend  the  Right  of  Suffrage  to  all  freeholders  of 
land,  which  though  not  equal  in  quantity  to  that  now  required  as  a  qualification,  is 
yet  equal  in  value  to  the  average  of  the  smaller  freeholds  which  now  constitute  the 
qualification.    A  man  may  be' the  owner  of  one  or  two  acres  of  land,  with  a  mill, 

• 

lattoes,  or  such  as  have  refused  to  give  assurance  of  fidelity  to  tlie  Commonwealth,)  being  possessed, 
or  whose  tenant  for  years,  at  will,  or  at  sufferance,  is  possessed,  of  twenty-live  acres  of  land,  with  a  house, 
the  superficial  content  of  the  foundation  whereof  is  twelve  feet  square,  or  equal  to  that  quantity,  and  a 
plantation  thereon,  or  fifty  acres  of  uniniproved  land,  or  a  lot  or  part  of  lot  of  land  in  a  city  or  town  estab- 
lished by  act  of  General  Assembly,  with  a  house  thereon  of  the  like  superficial  content  or  quantity,  having, 
in  such  land,  an  estate  of  freehold  at  the  Iea,<t,  and  unless  the  title  shall  have  come  to  him  by  descent,  de- 
vise, marriage,  or  marriage  settlement,  having  been  so  possessed  six  months,  and  no  other  person,  shall 
be  qualified  to  vote  for  delegates  to  serve  in  General  Assembly,  for  the  county,  city,  or  borough  respec- 
tively, in  which  the  land  lieth.  If  the  fifty  acres  of  land,  heing  one  entire  parcel,  lie  in  several  coun- 
ties, the  holder  shall  vote  in  that  county  wherein  the  greater  part  of  the  land  lieth,  only  ;  and,  if  the 
twenty-five  acres  of  land,  being  one  entire  parcel,  be  in  several  counties,  the  holder  shall  vote  in  that 
county  wherein  the  house  standeth,  only.  In  right  of  land  holden  by  parceners,  joint  tenants  or  tenants 
in  common,  but  one  vote  shall  be  given  by  all  the  holders  capable  of  voting,  who  may  be  present,  and 
agree  to  vote  for  the  same  candidate,  or  candidates,  unless  the  quantity  of  land,  in  case  partition  had  been 
made  thereof,  be  sufficient  to  entitle  every  holder  present  to  vote  separately,  or  unless  some  one  or  more 
of  the  holders  may  lawfully  vote  in  right  of  another  estate  or  estates  in  the  same  county  ;  in  which  case, 
the  others  may  vote,  if  holding  solely  they  might  have  voted:  Provided,  nevertheless,  That  no  person 
inhabiting  within  the  District  of  Columbia,  or  elsewhere,  not  within  the  jurisdiction  of  this  Common- 
wealth, shall  be  entitled  to  exercise  the  Riirhl  of  Suffrage  therein,  except  citizens  thereof  employed 
abroad  in  the  ser\'ice  of  the  United  States,  or  of  this  Commonwealth,  and  whose  foreign  residence  is" oc- 
casioned by  such  service." 


39G 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION^ 


tannery,  or  otlier  fixtures  upon  it,  equal  or  far  exceeding  in  value,  many  tracts  of  fifty 
acres  of  unimproved  land,  or  of  twenty-five  acres  with  a  small  dwelling  house  upon 
them.  I  would  extend  the  Right  of  Suffrage  to  freeholders  of  this  class  ;  to  all  Iree- 
holders  of  land  of  a  certain  assessed  value;  say,  fifty  dollars,  or  if  you  please,  twenty- 
five  dollars — I  am  not  particular  about  the  sum  with  which  the  blank  shall  be  filled. 
Then,  Sir,  I  propose  to  extend  the  right,  to  all  parceners,  joint  tenants  and  tenants  in 
common,  of  lands  of  such  aft  assessed  value,  that  the  share  of  each  shall  be  equal  in 
value,  no  matter  how  small  in  quantity,  to  the  value  of  the  small  freeholds  held  iu 
severalty,  which  I  have  just  now  described.  I  propose  to  extend  the  right,  further j 
to  all  remainder-men  and  reversioners  in  fee,  expectant  on  estates  for  liie  or  lives,  so 
that  the  assessed  value  of  the  land  be  such  that  the  estate  in  remainder  or  reversion 
may  be  fairly  estimated  at  an  equal  value  with  that  of  the  small  freeholds  held  in  pos- 
session. I  know  that  the  value  of  such  interests  depends  on  the  complement  or  du- 
ration of  life  of  the  tenant  in  possession ;  but  there  is  no  occasion  here  for  the  accu- 
racy which  would  be  proper  in  making  a  bargain ;  and  a  general  rule  may  be  easily 
laid  down,  which  will  ansv/er  the  present  purpose;  as  if  we  should  estimate  the  lile 
estate  equal  to  one-tliird,  and  the  remainder  in  fee  equal  to  two-thirds,  of  the  whole 
fee-simple  value  of  the  land,  and  regulate  the  extent  of  this  particular  qualification 
accordingly.  Lastly,  I  propose  to  give  the  Right  of  Sufiirage  to  all  tenants  for  years, 
holding  under  leases  renewable  at  their  own  option,  upon  the  payment  of  a  fine  or 
performance  of  other  condition.  These  are  estates  for  years,  only  in  name  ;  they  are, 
in  truth,  fixed,  permanent  and  independent  interests.  Such  leases  are  generally  pur- 
chased for  a  consideration  presently  paid  ;  and  only  a  ground-rent,  very  small  and 
very  far  short  of  the  annual  value  of  the  property,  is  reserved.  Such  lessees  are  little, 
if  at  all,  dependent  on  the  favour  of  their  landlords.  But  I  would  require,  that  the 
property  should  be  of  a  given  value;  if  estimated  with  respect  to  the  value  of  the 
fee-simple,  it  should  be  somewhat  greater  than  the  assessed  value  of  the  small  free- 
holds; if  estimated  with  respect  to  the  amount  of  rent  reserved,  that  should  be  very 
small.  I  am  at  present  regardless  of  details,  being  only  desirous  to  explain  the  prin- 
ciple on  which  1  propose  to  regulate  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  which  is,  to  require  some 
certain,  fixed,  permanent,  independent  interest  in  land,  as  the  qualification  of  the 
voter.  And  to  any  extent  to  which  this  principle  can  in  reason  be  carried,  to  that 
extent  I  am  willing  to  go  :  but,  to  go  farther — to  depart,  in  any  degree,  from  the  prin- 
ciple of  a  substantial  and  permanent  landed  qualification — this  is  what,  in  my  opinion, 
the  true  theory  of  pure  Republican  Government,  and  all  experience  of  the  practical 
operation  of  political  institutions,  at  home  and  in  our  sister  States,  far  from  dictating 
to  be  done,  warn  us  not  to  do. 

The  Legislative  Committee  proposes  to  extend  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  to  every 
leaseholder  of  a  term  originally  not  less  than  five  years,  yielding  an  annual  rent  of  a 
certain  amount,  though  but  a  month  or  a  week  of  the  term  shoJl  be  left  unexpired 
when  the  lessee  shall  present  himself  at  the  polls;  and  to  every  person,  who  tor 
twelve  months  next  preceding,  has  been  a  housekeeper  and  head  of  a  family,  within 
the  county  or  town  where  he  may  ofiier  to  vote,  and  who  shall  have  been  assessed 
with,  and  shall  have  paid,  a  revenue  tax,  of  any  kind,  on  any  subject,  or  to  any 
amount.  As  to  these  housekeepers  and  heads  of  tamilies,  which  the  proposition  dis- 
tinguishes from  termors  of  five  years,  as  well  as  from  freehold  owners  of  land,  they 
must  be  persons  resident  on  the  laiids  of  others — they  must  be  either  tenants  from 
year  to  year,  paying  rent — or  tenants  at  the  will  of  others,  on  whose  bounty  they  are 
dependent  for  a  home  and  a  shelter — or  squatters,  who  have  trespassed  and  seated 
tliemselves  on  tJie  lands  of  others.  ■  These  last,  to  be  sure,  may  be  independent  of  the 
•owners  of  the  land,  and  ready  enough,  quite  too  ready,  to  set  them  at  defiance;  and 
they,  I  hope,  are  i^t  witlnn  the  intent,  though  they  are  within  the  words,  of  the  new 
regulation  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  which  the  Legislative  Committee  has  proposed 
to  us.  But  what  will  be  the  condition  of  the  tenant  at  will,  who  is  indebted  to  the 
mere  bounty  of  his  landlord,  for  the  shelter  that  covers  his  head?  or  of  the  tenant 
from  year  to  year,  or  of  the  termor  of  a  five  years  lease,  rendering  a  rent  quarterly^ 
half-yearly  or  yearly,  equal  to  the  full  annual  value  of  the  land  ?  Is  it  expected,  is  it 
really  believed,  that  men  in  this  situation,  will  or  can  vote  without  any  regard  to  the 
wishes  of  their  landlords?  that  the  tenant,  when  he  goes  to  give  his  vote,  will  have  nu 
care  to  conciliate  the  favor,  or  to  avoid  the  resentment,  of  the  man,  who  may  issue 
his  distress  warrant  whenever  the  rent  is  in  arrear,  and  take  the  bed  on  which  his 
sick  wife  is  lying,  or  the  cradle  from  his  new-born  child  ?  Sir,  the  landlord  holds  such 
a  tenant  by  the  very  strings  of  his  heart.  He  has  the  power,  with  the  shghtest 
twitch,  to  drag  him  to  the  polls,  and  to  dictate  his  vote.  Not  the  pusillanimity  only, 
but  the  very  virtues  of  the  man,  may  serve  to  ensure  his  dependence,  and  implicit 
obedience  to  the  master-power  which  constrains  his  will.  If  the  landlord  be  indul- 
gent and  kind — if  with  power  to  exact  his  due  by  summary  process  of  distress,  he 
yet  forbears  to  do  so,  out  of  a  kind  regard  to  the  interests  of  the  tenant,  or  a  generous 
sympathy  with  any  mislbrtunes  which  have  befallen  hiuij  he  binds  the  tenant  to  him 


DEBATES   or  THE 


CONVENTION. 


2W7 


by  favor :  if  there  be  gratitude  in  the  human  heart,  such  a  tenant  will  respect  the 
wishes  of  such  a  landiord  ;  and  the  case  will  be  rare  indeed,  in  wliich  he  will  hesitate 
to  give  his  vote  at  the  polls,  according  to  the  landlord's  desne  or  suggestion,  or  his 
slightest  hint.  On  the  other  hand,  the  hard  and  rigorous  landlord  may  address  his 
dictation  to  the  distresses  or  fears  of  his  tenant  3  and  may,  in  general,  command  his 
vote,  by  the  terror  of  a  constable  at  his  door,  with  a  distress  warrant  in  his  hand. 
The  poor  man,  who  loves  his  wife  and  children,  will  look  to  their  welfare  and  com- 
fort as  the  first  object  of  his  care,  and  will  find  in  the  pride  of  political  independence, 
no  consolation  for  the  misery  in  which  it  may  involve  them.  Thus  it  is.  Sir,  that  all 
extremes  approach.  Tliis  extension  of  the  Right  of  SulFrage,  professedly  (and,  I  will 
not  doubt,  sincerely)  designed  to  raise  the  poor  to  a  level  with  the  rich  in  political 
power,  Vv'ill  only  increase  the  power  of  the  rich :  for,  it  m.ay  safely  be  afiirmed,  as  a 
general  consequence  of  the  principle,  that,  to  give  the  Right  of  Suffrage  to  tenants 
at  will,  the  mere  dependents  on  the  bounty  of  the  rich,  or  to  tenants  from  3-ear  to 
year,  or  to  your  termors  of  five  j^ears,  rendering  a  full  rent,  is,  in  effect,  to  give  the 
landlord  as  many  votes,  in  addition  to  his  own,  as  he  has  tenants.  We  have  all  heard 
of  the  interest  of  landlords  of  England  in  their  counties — an  interest  transferrible  at 
their  pleasure,  wliich  is  continually  influencing,  and  often  determining,  the  fate  of 
elections.  "What  is  it  ?  how  acquired  ?  and  how  exerted  ?  The  explanation  is  very 
simple.  The  great  landholder  lets  to  his  tenant  a  petty  forty  shilling  freehold,  which, 
qualifies  him  to  vote  in  elections  3  and  with  this,  he  leases  to  him  a  farm  for  a  term 
of  years,  at  a  full  rent  of  £50,  £100,  or  £500.  with  a  clause  of  re-entry,  and  the 
legal  power  to  distrain,  for  rent  in  arrear.  Such  a  tenant  is  expected  to  give  his  vote, 
whenever  he  shall  be  called  upon,  according  to  his  landlord's  will  and  pleasure,  just 
as  much  as  he  is  expected  to  pay  his  rent  when  due  ;  and  the  vote,  is  given,  as  cer- 
tainly, I  doubt  not  far  more  certainly,  than  the  rent  is  paid ;  it  being  the  only  part  of 
the  consideration,  which  the  tenant  finds  no  trouble  in  paying.  I  shall  be  told,  no 
doubt,  as  I  have  been  often  told,  that  ice  may  rel}'  on  the  political  virtue  of  this  peo- 
ple, as  a  complete  safeguard  against  the  exertion,  or  even  the  existence,  of  a.ny  suck 
influence  of  the  landlord  over  his  tenant.  The  virtue  of  the  people  is  resorted  to  to 
solve  all  difficulties.  To  me  it  seems  passing  strange,  that  an  ai'gument  should  be 
drawn  from  the  present  existence  of  political  virtue,  against  the  system,  under  which 
that  virtue  has  grown  up  and  attained  its  utmost  strength,  and  in  favor  of  a  new  prin- 
ciple, the  obvious  tendency  of  which  is,  to  expose  that  virtue  to  temptation  and  cor- 
ruption. And,  with  regard  to  that  political  influence,  which  a  landlord  may  acquire 
over  his  tenant,  by  kindness,  indulgei:ice  and  favor,  it  is  quite  obvious,  that  the  virtues 
both  of  the  one  and  of  the  other,  far  from  tending  to  coimteract  such  an  influence, 
have  a  tendency  to  beget,  to  foster  and  confirm  it.  I  own,  that,  at  this  time,  and 
perhaps  for  some  ten  or  fifteen  years  to  come,  it  is  not  probable,  tliat  any  landlord  will 
dare  to  exercise  a  political  influence  over  his  tenant,  by  a  rigorous  exertion  of  the 
powers  which  such  a  creditor  has  over  such  a  debtor;  but  the  time  may  come,  the 
time  sooner  or  later  will  surely  come,  when,  in  the  agitation  of  those  violent  political 
contests,  wliich  certainly  no  man  hopes  or  believes  to  be  impossible  or  improbable  ia 
this  Commonwealth,  and  which  are  so  peculiarly  calculated  to  excite  the  passions  of 
men,  and  to  make  them  regardless  of  the  pohtical  morality  of  the  means  by  which 
party  purposes  can  be  accomplished,  we  may  expect  to  see  landlords  exerting  their 
influence  over  their  tenants,  in  vrhatever  way  such  an  influence  may  be  most  efiec- 
tually  exerted.  Let  there  be  one  successful  example  of  the  kind,  and  there  will  soon 
be  imitation  enough ;  and  the  exertion  of  this  corrupt  and  corrupting  influence, 
wliich  viewed  at  a  distance  and  in  the  abstract,  is  an  object  of  just  abomination,  will 
soon  come  to  be  regarded,  as  natural,  fair  and  legitimate.  What  expedient  will  then 
be  resorted  to  to  preserve  the  tenant's  independence,  and  exempt  him,  as  a  voter  at 
the  polls,  from  the  influence  of  his  landlord  ?  Sir,  I  have  heard  it  hinted  already — 
not  yet  indeed  openly  upon  this  floor — but  it  has  been  hinted,  tiiat  the  remedy  is 
quite  obvious  and  easy — only  abolish  the  right  of  the  landlord  to  distrain  for  rent  in 
arrear.  Suppose  it  shall  be  adopted — as  in  my  conscience  I  believe  it  will  be,  and 
that  at  no  distant  day — what  then .-  Would  the  genius  of  reform  also  deny  the  land- 
lord his  action  of  debt  to  recover  his  rent,  and  his  execution  to  enforce  the  judgment.'* 
Shall  all  clauses  of  re-entry  for  non-payment  of  rent,  inserted  in  any  lease^be  de- 
clared null  and  void  by  statute The  ver}'  suggestion  of  the  possibility  of  such  ex- 
pedients to  counteract  the  tendency  of  the  proposed  extension  of  the  Right  of  Suf- 
frage, is  the  strongest  sentence  of  condemnation  of  the  principle  itself,  since  it  serves 
to  shew,  that  the  adoption  of  it  is  only  a  prelude  to  a  direct  attack  upon  the  rights  of 
landed  property. 

It  may  be  thought  extraordinary,  that  I,  who  maintain,  that  property  is  justly  en- 
titled to  representation — that,  being  inert  in  itself,  to  take  from  it  all  influence  in  the 
Government,  would  be  to  make  it,  not  an  object  of  the  most  jealous  care  (as  it  ought 
to  be),  but  an  object  of  plunder — that  I  should,  nevertheless,  reject  the  proposed  ex- 
tension of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  on  the  ground  that  it  tends  to  increase  the  political 


398 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


influence  of  the  fee-simple  owners  of  land.  And,  to  my  knowledge,  there  are  some 
to  v/hom  the  proposed  extension  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage  is  recommended,  precisely 
by  the  consideration  which  I  have  been  urging  as  a  vital  objection  to  it — namely,  that 
it  will  increase  the  political  influence  of  the  landholder.  Sir,  1  am  for  giving  pro- 
perty a  fair,  just,  direct  influence  in  the  Government — an  influence  httle  (if  at  all) 
liable  to  abuse — an  influence,  which  promotes,  instead  of  undermining,  public  virtue; 
an  influence,  which  obviates  the  possibility  of  corruption — that  kind  of  influence, 
which  it  has  hitherto  had  in  this  Commonwealth,  and  which  has  contributed,  above 
all  things,  to  the  preservation  of  political  purity  in  the  community  at  large,  and  in 
the  admmlstration  of  public  affairs.  But,  regarding  public  virtue  as  essential  to  the 
very  being  of  a  Republic,  as  the  vital  spirit  which  animates  healthful  liberty,  and 
makes  her  tlie  parent  of  every  blessing  and  the  dearest  object  of  our  affections,  I 
shall  be  the  last  man  to  give  property  that  kind  of  influence  which  can  work  only  by 
corruption;  an  influence,  which  will  corrupt  alike  the  citizen  by  whomit  shall  be  ex- 
ercised, and  the  citizen  on  whom  it  shall  be  exerted. 

Sir,  these  house-keepers  and  termors  of  five  years,  stand  in  a  relation  towards  their 
landlords,  to  which  the  influence  of  the  one,  and  the  dependence  of  the  other,  are, 
in  my  opinion,  almost  inseparably  incident;  and,  tlierefore,  they  are  the  last  class  of 
men  (except  p  .upers)  who  ought  to  be  admitted  to  the  polls. 

I  am.  Sir,  for  retaining,  unchanged  and  unimpaired,  the  principle  of  the  freehold 
qualification  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  as  established  by  the  existing  Constitution  and 
laws,  only  extending  the  right  to  such  as  come  within  the  reason  on  which  the  prin- 
ciple itself  was  established  by  our  forefathers.  Shall  I  be  again  told,  that  the  Con- 
vention of  1776  found  this  principle  in  the  Constitution  of  the  Colonial  Government, 
and  preserved  it  unaltered — that  it  was  copied  from  the  institutions  of  England — that 
it  was  in  truth  dictated  to  us,  originally,  by  King  Charles  II.  in  1667 — and  that  its 
origin  and  its  history  stamp  upon  it,  indelibly,  the  odious  character  of  aristocracy? 
Whence  did  we  derive  the  institution  of  jury-trial.?  Whence  the  principle  of  repre- 
sentative Government  itself.?  Did  we  copy  them  from  the  Republic  of  Rome,  or  the 
democracy  of  Athens.?  Were  they  suggested  by  the  v/isdom  of  Aristotle,  or  of  Plato, 
or  of  Tully  ?  Are  gentlemen  prepared  to  abolish  the  institution  of  jury-trial,  and  the 
principle  of  representative  Government  itself,  merely  because  they  are  (as  undoubt- 
edly they  are)  of  English  origin  ?  Are  they  prepared  to  draw  the  very  blood  from  our 
veins,  because  that  too  is  derived  from  British  ancestors  ?  Are  they  prepared  to  abro- 
gate the  whole  body  of  the  Common  Law,  because  it  is  the  Common  Law  of  Eng- 
land.?— that  Common  Law,  which  our  ancestors  brought  with  them  to  this  land,  and 
claimed  and  enjoyed  as  their  birthright — that  Common  Law,  the  genius  of  which  is 
found  standing  by  the  side  of  liberty,  wherever  liberty  is  found  upon  the  globe,  her 
companion  and  her  handmaid.  As  to  the  freehold  qualification  having  been  dictated 
to  the  Colonial  Government  of  Virginia,  by  a  royal  mandate  in  the  reign  of  Charles 
II.,  I  do  not  question  the  fact ;  nor  have  I  the  least  doubt,  that  it  was  a  high-handed  ar- 
bitrary measure,  transcending  the  lawful  authority  of  the  crown,  and  essaying  to 
usurp  powers,  which  the  Constitution  of  the  Colonial  Government  (such  as  it  was) 
vested  in  the  whole  Legislature:  but  it  is  not  true,  that  the  freehold  qualification  of 
Suffrage  was  established  in  the  Colony,  by  force  of  the  royal  mandate  ;  it  was  estab- 
lished and  regulated  by  the  only  competent  authority — by  an  act  of  the  whole  Legis- 
lature. He  who  attributes  this  measure  to  the  personal  interference  of  CJiarles,  has 
given  very  little  attention  to  the  character  or  history  of  that  scoundrel  King  (as  he 
has  been  justly  called.)  It  was  only  a  measure  of  that  reign — a  measure  of  the 
minister,  whoever  he  was,  that  was  charged  with  the  care  of  Colonial  affairs — and  it 
was  intended,  as  it  certainly  was  calculated,  to  give  stability  and  dignity  to  the  Colo- 
nial Government.  The  King  himself,  intent  only  on  sensual  gratifications,  pleasure 
and  ease,  hardly  bestowed  a  serious  thought  on  the  condition  of  his  subjects  at  home, 
much  less  on  the  political  institutions  of  his  distant  Colonies.  But  this  freehold  quali- 
fication of  Suffrage  in  Virginia,  was  a  measure  of  Charles's  reign  !  So  was  the  act, 
which  is  now  the  great  safeguard  of  personal  freedom,  in  England  and  America — the 
act  which  secured  the  privilege  of  the  writ  of  Habeas  Corpus!  I  hope,  Sir,  we  shall 
hear  no  more  declamation  on  this  subject — no  more  addresses  to  our  prejudices  :  I 
hope  we  shall  discuss  the  merits  of  the  freehold  qualification  of  Suffrage,  as  a  ques- 
tion of  political  expediency,  or  (if  gentlemen  please)  of  political  justice,  or  natural 
right,  without  the  least  consideration  of  the  Colonial  or  English  or  regal  source,  from 
which  it  was  originally  derived. 

In  the  various  discussions  I  have  heard  on  the  subject  of  the  qualification  of  the 
Right  of  Suffrage,  as  well  before  as  since  the  meeting  of  this  Convention,  I  have  un- 
derstood those  who  are  opposed  to  the  freehold  qualification,  to  contend,  that  the 
Right  of  Suffrage  belongs,  of  natural  right,  to  all  men  who  are  subject  to  the  Govern- 
ment, and  bound  to  contribute  to  its  support,  and  to  bear  arms  in  defence  of  the  State. 
Now,  Sir,  for  my  own  part,  I  am  incapable  of  conceiving  any  natural  right— (a.  right, 
distinct  from,  antecedent  to,  independent  of,  social  conventional  law — a  right  inherent 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


399 


in  man,  derived  from  the  law  of  nature,  and  with  which  he  is  indued  by  the  God  of 
-  nature) — which  is  not  common  to  every  human  being.  Take  the  definition  of  the 
first  article  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  :  All  men  are  by  nature  equally  free  and  indepen- 
dent, and  have  certain  inherent  rights,  of  which,  when  they  enter  into  a  state  of  so- 
ciety, they  cannot  by  any  compacf  deprive  or  divest  their  posterity  ;  namely,  the  en- 
joyment of  life  and  liberty,  with  the  means  of  acquiring  and  possessing  property,  and 
pursuing  and  obtaining  happiness  and  safety."  It  is  manifest,  these  rights  belong  not 
only  to  every  man  who  pays  public  taxes  and  bears  arms,  but  also  to  every  woman  and 
child  in  the  community.  Again;  natural  rights  are  rigiits  inherent  in  man,  vested 
in  him  before  he  enters  into  society,  distinct  from  and  independent  of  social  institu- 
tions. Can  there  be  a  greater  contradiction  in  terms,  than  to  say  tiiat  the  Right  of 
Suffrage  is  one  of  these  natural  rights,  pertaining  to  man  in  a  state  of  nature.^ — the 
Right  of  Suffrage,  which  supposes  a  state  of  societ}- — which  can  never  be  exercised, 
which  can  have  no  value,  no  effect,  and  no  imaginable  ideal  existence,  till  society  is 
formed  and  regulated  b}^  laws,  nor  indeed  till  it  has  attained  to  a  very  high  degree  of 
civiUzation  and  refinement.  The  friends  of  Universal  or  (as  it  is  now  the  fashion  to 
call  it)  General  Suffrage,  are  themselves  obliged  to  admit,  that  it  is  not  a  natural 
right — that  it  is  a  merely  conventional  right :  for,  at  the  first  stroke  of  the  pen,  they 
exclude  from  the  polls  all  women  without  exception,  that  is,  about  half  of  the  commu- 
nity ;  and  then,  all  minors,  that  is  about  half  of  the  male  sex ;  and  then,  all  paupers 
and  convicts — so  that  this  right,  which  gentlemen  claim  as  one  of  the  natural  rights 
of  man  (and  if  so  common,  to  all  mankind),  the}"  themselves  propose  to  confine  to  less 
than  a  fourth  of  the  people.  We  all  agree,  then,  that  the  Right  of  Suffrage  is  a  sub- 
ject of  conventional  regulation — we  all  agree,  that  some  limitation  of  it,  and  a  very 
extensive  limitation  too,  is  just  and  necessary.  The  question  is,  what  qualification  is 
the  most  just,  the  most  politic,  the  best  suited  to  the  nature  and  ends  of  a  Represen- 
tative Republic,  and,  in  particular,  to  the  peculiar  circumstances  of  this  Common- 
wealth ?  The  question  between  us,  is  onlj^  a  question  of  degree.  And  believino-.  as 
I  do  most  conscientiously  believe,  that  the  landed  freehold  qualification  is  preferable, 
far  preferable,  to  an}'-  other  that  can  be  devised,  I  am  bound  to  maintain  it  with  the 
utmost  exertion  of  my  poor  ability. 

Gentlemen  say,  it  is  imperfect — that  there  are  lazy,  idle,  drunken,  vitious  men, 
who  hold  freeholds  which  may  entitle  them  to  vote,  while  their  next  neighbour,  tliough 
ever  so  industrious,  honest  and  intelligent,  ma}^  be  excluded  from  the  polls,  because 
he  owns  no  freehold — that  the  man  who  owns  a  freehold  to-day,  and  sells  it  to-mor- 
row, is  in  all  likelihood  equally  worthy  to  be  entrusted  with  the  exercise  of  political 
power  after  he  has  made  the  sale  as  before,  and  that  the  purchaser  can  hardly  be 
deemed  more  worthy,  the  day  after  than  he  was  the  day  before  he  made  the  acquisi- 
tion— that,  surely,  intelligence,  or  independence,  or  any  of  the  social  virtues,  cannot, 
with  truth,  be  ascribed  to  all  the  freeholders,  or  denied  to  all  the  non-freeholders: 
and  I  admit  all  this.  It  has  been  said  too,  that  there  are  freeholders  wlio  are  paupers; 
but  that  I  cannot  conceive  the  possibilit}-  of  But  I  admit,  that  the  freehold  qualifica- 
tion is  imperfect.  What  then  I  still  say — and  I  appeal  to  every  man  who  hears 
me,  whether  or  no  I  say  the  truth — that,  in  Virginia,  the  great  mass  of  intelligence 
and  virtus  resides  in  that  stout  and  generous  yeomanry,  the  freeholders  of  this  land; 
that  to  them  belongs  not  only  all  the  real  property  of  the  Commonwealth,  but  almost 
all  of  the  personal  property  also ;  that  they  are  the  class,  who  feed,  who  clothe,  who 
educate  all  classes;  who  hold  the  greatest  stake  in  society ;  who  are  the  only  persons 
who  have  any  stake  that  may  not  be  withdrawn  at  pleasure,  in  the  twinkling  of  an 
eye;  who,  therefore,  have,  and  actually  take,  the  deepest  interest  in  the  public  wel- 
fare. They  alone  support  Government,  constantly  in  peace,  as  well  as  occasionally 
in  war — they  fight  as  well  as  pay — and  the}'  feed  and  clothe  and  pay  all  who  do 
fight.  It  has  been  my  lot  to  mix,  a  great  deal,  in  the  society  of  these  freeholders — 
aye,  Sir,  vnth  the  very  poorest  of  them.  I  think  I  know  the  character  of  our  poor 
fireeholder  perfectly.  Look  at  him — modest,  unobtrusive,  and  unassuming,  in  Ins 
manners  and  deportment,  almost  to  humility,  the  idea  has  never  entered  into  his  head, 
that  he  is  a  nobleman — the  limb  of  a  great  aristocracy :  on  the  contrary,  the  first  im- 
pression of  a  stranger  would  be,  that  he  is  not  sensible  of  his  dignity  as  a  freeman. 
But  try  him — go  to  his  house,  and  you  will  find  him,  and  especiallv  his  wife,  hospi- 
table to  the  utmost  of  their  means — trust  him,  and  you  will  find  him  proudly  faithful 
to  his  trust — appeal  to  him  in  any  distress  that  may  befall  you ;  you  will  find  his  heart 
warm  with  generous  sympathy,  and  his  hand  ready  to  aid  you — Do  him  a  service  or  a 
kindness,  he  will  remember  it  to  tlie  latest  hour  of  his  life ;  and  if  ever  opportunity 
occurs,  he  will  pay  it  back  to  you,  or  after  your  death,  to  your  children,  with  interest — 
let  any  one  wrong  him;  he  knows  as  well  as  the  wisest,  how  to  seek  and  obtain  re- 
dress— insult  him,  and  he  will  fight  you.  I  copy  the  portrait.  Sir.  from  the  picture  of 
the  original  painted  on  my  ownTieart.  I  can  hardly  imagine  a  higher  degree  of  vir- 
tue, public  or  private,  than  that  of  the  great  body  of  the  freeholders  of  Virginia.  Has 
one  man  of  them  all  ever  been  bribed  for  his  vote  ?  has  any  gentleman  ever  heard  of 


400 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


a  single  instance  ?  The  wealth  of  this  Commonwealth  cannot  bribe  the  freeholders 
of  that  little  despised  county  of  Warwick,  so  often  referred  to,  on  account  of  its  size, 
as  the  opprobrium  of  the  existing  Constitution.  I  say,  therefore,  that  the  freehold 
landed  qualification — thougli  it  is  not  absolutely  perfect,  as  I  willingly  own  it  is  not — 
though,  like  all  other  general  regulations,  it  may  admit  some  to  the  polls,  who,  if  re- 
gard could  be  had  to  their  individual  character,  ought  to  be  excluded,  and  excludes 
some,  whom,  regarding  individual  merit,  all  would  be  willing  to  admit — is  still,  in 
Virginia  at  least,  if  not  in  all  Republican  States,  the  preferable  qualification  of  Suf- 
frage— the  best  criterion  for  ascertaining  the  class  most  worthy  to  be  entrusted  with 
the  political  powers  of  the  State. 

No  general  regulation  on  the  subject,  can  be  exempt  from  imperfection.  We  all 
(I  believe — I  am  not  quite  sure  of  it)  concur  as  to  the  qualifications  of  sex  and  age — 
that  all  women  and  all  minors,  without  exception,  ought  to  be  excluded  from  the 
polls.  Yet,  I  presume,  no  man  entertains  the  opinion,  that  there  is  not  a  single  wo- 
man, that  there  are  not  many,  very  many  women,  fully  equal  to  the  most  meritorious 
of  the  other  sex,  in  intelligence,  in  public  spirit,  and  every  otlier  quality  that  consti- 
tutes a  good  citizen.  I  have  known  women.  Sir,  who  possessed,  not  only  the  gentler 
virtues  of  their  sex,  and  passive  fortitude  (in  v/hich,  I  think,  they  generally  surpass 
men),  but  such  active  courage,  as  might  shame  many  of  the  stronger  sex.  Is  that  a 
perfect  rule,  which  excludes  all  women,  the  firm  and  wise,  as  well  as  the  silly  and  the 
vain?  As  to  the  qualification  of  age,  we  all  concur  in  admitting  to  the  polls,  the  most 
imbecile  of  mankind — men  in  the  last  extremity  of  dotage — men  of  any  decree  of 
mental  vv^eakness  short  of  legal  incapacity  to  manage  their  own  affairs — while  we  ex- 
clude all  youths  under  twenty-one  years  of  age,,  whatever  be  their  attainments  or  their 
merits.  Considered,  then,  in  reference  to  individuals,  gentlemen  must  perceive,  that 
even  these  qualifications  of  sex  and  age,  which  as  yet  no  statesman  surely  has  ever 
doubted  the  propriety  of,  are  imperfect. 

Let  us  not  waste  our  labour  in  a  vain  search  after  unattainable  perfection  in  our 
political  institutions.  If,  in  regulating  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  we  can  find  a  rule  which 
will  exclude  the  fewest  of  those  who  ought  to  be  admitted,  and  admit  the  fewest  of 
those  who  on  any  account  ought  to  be  excluded,  with  that  rule  we  ought  to  be  con- 
tent. And  I  shall  forever  maintain,  that  (in  this  Commonwealth  particularly)  the 
freehold  qualification  is  that  rule. 

It  is,  I  suppose  without  question,  the  object  of  us  all,  to  establish  a  wise,  just,  patri- 
otic. Republican  Govei-nment.  And,  looking  to  the  accomplishment  of  that  end,  I  in- 
sist, tliat  to  ensure  wisdom  in  the  Governrnxent,  and  a  strict  observance  of  justice,  and 
a  spirit  of  patriotism  in  tlie  administration  of  public  affairs,  we  ought  to  vest  the  Right 
of  Suffrage  (the  fountain,  in  our  system,  of  all  political  power)  in  that  class  of  men, 
in  whom  we  find,  generally,  the  greatest  degree  of  moral  and  intellectual  cultivation; 
in  that  class  of  men,  who,  holding  the  property  of  the  State,  are  the  most  interested 
in  the  administration  of  justice  ;  in  that  class  of  men,  whose  own  interests  are  the  most 
completely  identified  with  the  interests  of  the  Commonwealth.  And  this  is  the  class 
of  freeholders. 

Now,  Sir,  is  the  freehold  qualification  contrary  to  any  sound  principle  of  Republi- 
can Government.?  Gentlemen  insist  that  it  is — and  they  appeal  to  the  Bill  of  Rights, 
in  which  it  is  declared,  that  "  all  men,  having  sufiicient  evidence  of  permanent  com- 
mon interest  with,  and  attachment  to,  the  community,  have  the  Right  of  Suffrage." 
We  acknowledge  the  principle,  in  its  utmost  extent — but  we  tell  them,  that  it  is  only 
the  general  abstract  principle,  and  that  the  question  is  as  to  its  application  in  practice — 
what  is  the  sufiicient  evidence  of  common  interest  with,  and  attachment  to,  the  com- 
munity, which  ought  to  be  required  as  the  qualification  of  Suffrage?  We  tell  them, 
that  the  very  men,  who  laid  down  the  abstract  principle,  did,  at  the  very  same  time, 
in  then*  practical  application  of  it,  require  a  freehold  in  land,  as  the  qualification.  The 
only  answer  they  give  us,  is,  simply,  to  repeat  the  principle:  relying  on  the  authority 
of  the  Bill  of  Rights  for  the  principle,  which  nobody  disputes,  and  rejecting  the  autho- 
rity of  the  Constitution,  framed  by  the  same  men,  as  to  the  practical  application  of  it, 
which  is  the  point  in  debate,  they  eternally  repeat  the  principle.  Now,  I  affirm,  as 
the  Convention  of  1776  affnmed  in  the  Constitution,  that  a  freehold,  or  other  certain, 
permanent,  independent  interest,  in  land,  is  tiie  best  and  the  only  sufficient  evidence 
of  permanent  connnon  interest  with,  and  attachment  to,  the  community. 

For,  I  think  it  may  safely  be  assumed,  that  not  only  all  the  land  of  the  country  is 
owned  by  the  freeholders,  but  at  least  nineteen  twentieths  (I  believe  the  proportion  is 
much  greater)  of  the  visible,  taxable,  personal  property  also  is  owned  by  them.  Sup- 
pose one  of  these  men  purposes  to  sell  his  land,  and  migrate  to  the  West;  still  he  is 
interested  in  whatever  afl'ects  the  general  weal  of  Virginia,  to  tlie  last  moment  he 
holds  the  land,  since  he  cannot  divest  himself  of  his  interest  in  its  value.  But  mere 
personal  property  has  no  locality.  Slaves  without  land  to  work  them  on,  are  more 
valuable  in  the  South  Western  States  than  here.  Money,  Bank  stock,  stock  in  the 
public  funds,  are  of  equal  value  every  where :  the  owners  of  such  property  (it  is  with  us, 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


a  very  small  part  of  the  national  wealth)  have  not,  by  reason  of  such  ownership,  any 
common  interest  with  or  attachment  to  our  community,  in  any  sense  of  the  words. 

I  shall  forever  contend,  that  those  who  must  bear  tlie  burden  of  paying  taxes,  ought 
to  have  the  power  of  laying  them.  Is  it  right,  that  tlie  land-holders  of  Virginia,  who 
must  pay  almost  the  whole  revenue  of  the  State,  as  well  that  raised  on  land,  as  that 
raised  on  personal  property,  should  be  taxed  by  those  who  pay  little  or  nothing,  and 
who  by  no  contrivance  can  be  made  to  contribute  more  ? 

There  is  another  view  of  this  subject,  which  is  very  obvious,  and  yet  seems  to  have 
altogether  escaped  the  attention  of  those  who  deny  the  propriety  of  the  freehold  quali- 
fication. The  Commonwealth  of  Virginia  has  three  several  classes  of  political  inter- 
ests. One  is  the  interest  she  has,  in  common  with  all  the  States  of  the  Federal  Union, 
in  relation  to  foreign  nations ;  this  is  confided  to  the  Federal  Government.  Another 
is,  the  interest  of  Virginia,  in  relation  to  the  Union,  and  to  the  several  States  which 
compose  it;  this  is  confided,  partly  to  the  Federal,  and  partly  to  the  State,  Govern- 
ment. In  regard  to  both  these  classes  of  interests,  every  citizen  of  Virginia  has,  or 
ought  to  have,  the  same  common  interest.  But,  as  to  the  other  class,  the  local  inter- 
ests of  the  several  parts  of  the  State  in  relation  to  each  other — which  are  confided  ex- 
clusively to  the  State  Government — which  are  continually  brought  home  to  every 
man — I  defy  the  wit  of  man  to  discover  any  evidence,  or  devise  any  cause,  of  commu- 
nity of  interest  with  or  attachment  to  any  particular  county,  other  than  the  ownership 
of  land  in  it.  What  is  the  bond,  which  attaches  the  resident  of  the  county  of  Ches- 
terfield, who  has  only  a  slave,  or  a  horse,  or  a  gainful  trade,  to  the  peculiar  interests 
of  that  county,  more  than  those  of  Henrico  ?  What  is  his  comnmnity  of  interest 
with  the  people  of  Chesterfield,  for  whose  representative  he  is  to  vote I  pray  gen- 
tlemen to  tell  me ;  to  tax  their  ingenuity,  to  exercise  their  invention,  or  their  imagi- 
nation, and  point  it  out  to  me,  if  they  can.    There  is  none  ;  none  conceivable. 

There  are  those  who  affect  to  think,  that  the  mere  fact  of  the  citizen  being  born  in 
the  State,  is  enough  to  attach  him  forever  to  the  interests  of  the  Commonwealth,  and 
even  of  tlie  particular  county  in  which  he  is  born;  and  that  birth,  therefore,  with  ac- 
tual residence  and  mature  age,  is  a  sufficient  qualification  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage. 
I  wish  I  could  think  this  reasoning  well  founded  in  fact.  For  my  own  part — though 
I  have  never  avowed  the  sentiment  without  exciting  a  smile — I  yield  all  pretensions 
to  philosophy,  and  I  am  proud  to  own,  that  I  cherish  a  narrow  attachment  for  the  spot 
of  earth  where  I  was  born,  and  where  sleep  in  peace  the  ashes  of  my  parents,  and  of 
all  the  dead  whom  I  have  loved  and  honoured  in  my  youth ;  and  a  grateful  affection 
for  the  people  among  whom  I  was  bred,  and  from  whom,  from  my  childhood  to  this 
hour,  I  have  been  experiencing  continual  kindness.  Would  to  God,  this  sentiment 
was  general!  But  we  see  men,  every  day,  leaving  this  their  native  land,  and  mi- 
grating to  the  most  distant  regions  of  the  West,  without  a  single  pang  at  the  separa- 
tion from  the  home  and  the  friends  of  their  youth,  and  with  no  concern  but  that 
which  springs  from  the  thought  of  their  being  obliged  to  pay  for  the  land  they  have 
bought  of  the  United  States. 

While  the  freehold  owners  of  the  land,  being  owners  also  of  the  great  mass  of  visi- 
ble taxable  personalty,  have  a  community  of  interest,  of  which  they  never  can  divest 
themselves,  with  every  other  class  of  the  community,  the  other  classes  have  no  ne- 
cessary community  of  interest  with  them.  Retain  the  powers  of  Government  in  the 
hands  of  the  freeholders;  and  they  can  never  adopt  any  course  of  measures,  or  im- 
pose any  public  burdens,  which  will  not  affect  themselves  equally  or  more  than  the 
non-freeholders.  Place  the  Government  in  other  hands  than  theirs;  and  they  may 
be  ground  to  dust  and  ashes  by  those  who  have  no  fellow-feeling  for  them.  All  men, 
we  are  told,  are  by  nature  equally  free ;  and  thence  it  is  inferred,  that  every  man  is 
equally  entitled,  in  a  political  way,  to  dispose  of  the  property  of  others.  The  direct 
contrary  is  the  true  inference — that  every  man  is  best  entitled  to  dispose  of  his  own. 
This  principle  intended  to  operate  as  a  protection  of  the  rights  of  individuals  from  the 
power  of  others,  and  expressly  so  applied  by  those  who  declared  it,  is  converted  into 
a  principle  of  power  over  others.  Sir,  these  manifold  perversions  of  the  plain  words 
and  simple  elementary  truths  of  the  Bill  of  Rights,  which  I  daily  hear,  are,  to  my  ap- 
prehension, the  most  alarming  symptom  of  the  times:  they  jeopard  the  very  principle 
of  property ;  they  portend  serious  danger  to  all  regular  Government. 

But  it  is  contended,  that  the  freehold  qualification  is  an  odious  system  of  exclusion; 
and  every  word  we  have  heard  on  the  subject  here — and  all  the  reasoning  of  that  fa- 
mous memorial,  which  was  presented  to  us  at  the  commencement  of  our  session,  and 
which  has  been  so  much  lauded — proceed  on  the  assumption  that  this  is  the  true  cha- 
racter of  the  principle.  A  stranger  unacquainted  with  our  institutions,  and  relying  for 
information  concerning  them  on  the  language  of  our  reformers,  would  conclude,  that 
the  freeholders  constitute  a  separate  and  higher  rank  in  our  society,  and  the  non-free- 
holders an  inferiour  degraded  caste,  from  which  the  one  can  never  rise,  nor  the  other 
descend ;  that  the  freeholder  can  never  part  with  his  qualification  and  cease  to  enjoy 
the  Right  of  Suffrage,  nor  the  non-freeholder  acquire  it.    Yet,  in  truth,  there  is  not 

51 


402 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


the  least  restraint  on  the  alienation  of  freehold  lands  in  Virginia ;  and  every  fartliing's 
worth  of  real  estate  is  open  to  the  fair  and  honest  acquisition  of  all.  No  law  secures 
the  possession  of  the  soil  to  luxury  and  idleness,  or  denies  it  to  honest  labour  and  per- 
severing industry.  An  odious  system  of  exclusion  !  where  every  man  may  acquire  free* 
hold  estate  in  land  enough  to  confer  the  Right  of  Suffrage  for  fifty  dollars.  There  is  not 
a  county  in  the  State  (unless,  perhaps,  the  county  of  Jefferson)  where  a  sufficient 
freehold  may  not  be  bought  for  fifty  dollars ;  in  many  counties,  it  may  be  bought  for 
twenty,  in  many  for  five  dollars.  No  honest  industrious  citizen  is  excluded,  who 
chooses  to  gain  admission;  no,  none  but  the  veriest  paupers  and  drones  in  the  com- 
munity, whom  all  agree  upon  excluding.  An  interest  in  the  soil  is  only  required,  be- 
cause it  affords  the  best  and  only  certain  general  test  of  community  of  interest  with 
the  great  body  of  the  State.  It  was,  then,  with  surprise,  ineffable  surprise,  that  I 
heard  the  information  which  the  gentleman  from  Monongalia  (Mr.  Wilson)  gave  the 
Committee  the  other  day — that  in  his  part  of  the  country,  men  of  the  highest  merit, 
"  of  civic  virtue  and  literary  talent,"  debarred  by  the  requisition  of  the  freehold  qualifi» 
cation  from  exercising  the  invaluable  Right  of  Suffrage,  and  disgusted  with  this 
"  odious  exclusion,"  this  degradation  from  the  rank  of  citizens,  were  seen  to  abandon 
their  native  land,  and  seek  "  in  the  free  States,"  that  equality  with  others  which  our 
institutions  sternly  deny  them.  I  should  be  glad  to  know  of  the  gentleman,  what  a 
sufficient  freehold  to  give  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  would  cost  in  the  county  of  Monon- 
galia I  suppose  it  might  be  bought  for  ten  dollars  ;  twenty  dollars  would  be  a  large 
estimate.  And  if  these  gentlemen  of  "  civic  virtue  and  literary  talent"  felt,  so  very 
acutely,  the  evil  and  degradation  of  their  exclusion  from  the  polls — if  an  attachment 
to  this  State  formed  any  ingredient  in  their  "  civic  virtue" — if  their  taste  for  literature 
had  not  spurned  the  vulgar  processes  of  calculation — they  would  have  considered, 
that  the  expense  of  the  first  hundred  miles  of  travel,  in  their  emigration  to  "  the  free 
States,"  would  have  sufficed  to  purchase  a  freehold  at  home,  and  this  invaluable  Right 
of  Suffrage  into  the  bargain.  The  very  facility,  with  which,  for  the  slightest  or  for 
no  reason,  these  non-freeholders  abandon  the  State,  of  which  we  have  now,  from  one 
of  their  advocates,  the  most  authentic  information,  is  conclusive  proof  to  my  mind, 
that  it  is  wise  to  exclude  them  from  the  polls — precisely,  because  it  evinces,  that  they 
have  no  permanent  common  interest  with  or  attachment  to  the  community. 

The  war  of  epithets  too,  which  I  hoped  had  spent  its  rage  in  the  debate  upon  the  ques- 
tion of  the  basis  of  Representation,  has  been  renewed  upon  this  question  of  the  qualifica- 
tion of  Suffrage.  The  freehold  quafificalion  is  a  remnant,  a  shred,  a  taint  of  aristocracy, 
which  we  ought  carefully  to  expurgate  from  our  political  institutions  !  Any  person  is 
at  full  liberty  to  think  me  an  aristocrat — aye,  and  to  call  me  so,  if  he  pleases — provided 
it  is  not  done  with  design  to  insult  me  :  I  have  no  office  to  gain;  no  office,  no  emolu- 
ment, no  political  fame  or  consequence  to  lose — naught  is  never  in  danger — political 
proscription  cannot  harm  me.  1  shall  still  enjoy  the  personal  confidence  of  the  gen- 
erous people,  whom  it  is  my  pride  to  represent  here — I  shall  still  enjoy  the  affections 
of  all  those  whose  regard  is  at  all  necessary  to  my  happiness  in  life — these  I  can  only 
forfeit  by  departing  from  the  course  (I  wish  I  were  sure  I  could  persist  in  it)  of  virtue 
and  honour :  and  as  loyalty  of  personal  attachment  is  with  me  a  ruling  motive  and 
principle  of  action,  so  I  look  to  it  as  my  principal  solace  and  support.  I,  therefore, 
trust,  that  I  shall  have  the  fortitude  to  bear  any  political  odium  that  can  be  heaped 
upon  my  head  ;  and  the  courage  to  face  any  clamour  that  can  be  raised,  however  fierce 
and  loud.  To  constitute  the  justum  et  temicerii  propositi  virum,  it  is  not  more  necessary 
that  he  should  be  capable  of  withstanding  the  vultus  instantis  tyranni,  tha,n  that  he  should 
be  capable  of  beholding,  unmoyed,  the  civium  ardor  prava  jubentium.  The  freehold 
qualification  is  aristocratical !  Was  Patrick  Henry  an  aristocrat  ?  was  George  Mason  ? 
was  Edmund  Pendleton.?  was  Spencer  Roane.?  Were  all  the  great  and  good  men  in 
Virginia,  since  the  revolution,  who  have,  so  steadily,  so  anxiously  adhered  to  this 
principle,  aristocrats  ?  Has  Virginia  herself  been  aristocratical  for  these  fifty-four 
years  past  ?  Is  this  blasphemy  of  our  glorious  foref  ithers  to  be  endured  ?  I  under- 
stand the  term  "  aristocracy,"  to  describe  political  power  vested  in  a  particular  order 
of  men,  either  designated  by  birth,  or  by  election  for  life,  which,  by  the  Constitution 
of  the  State,  is  unalienably  vested  in  them,  and  in  which  no  other  order  of  men  in  the 
community,  can,  by  any  act  of  their  own,  participate.  Generally,  in  Governments 
where  orders  of  nobility  are  admitted,  the  rank  and  the  political  power  incident  to  it, 
are  descendible.  But  what  is  the  condition  of  this  nobility  of  ours — this  aristocratic 
body  of  freeholders  ?  The  freeholder  sells  his  land  to  the  plebeian  non-freeholder  :  the 
plebeian  is  exalted  to  the  patrician  order,  and,  eodemflatu,  the  patrician  descends  into 
the  plebeian;  and  these  ups  and  downs  are  continually  going  on.  Even  gentlemen's 
termors  for  years,  and  house-keepers,  are  nobility  too,  if  enjoying  the  Right  of  Suf- 
frage gives  the  patent  of  nobility;  but,  in  their  case,  the  landlord  has  only  to  say 
"  quit,"  and  not  only  their  patent  of  nobifity  is  revoked,  but  they  are  turned  out  of 
house  and  home.  To  call  the  freehold  qualification  aristocratical,  if  not  a  wilful  abuse 
of  words,  implies  a  confusion  of  ideas. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


But  if  this  institution  is  not  an  aristocracy,  it  is  an  oligarchy — the  Government  of 
a  few  (for  that,  I  beheve  is  the  meaning  of  the  word)— the  number  of  freeholders  does 
not  amount  to  a  moiety  of  the  free  white  citizens  of  the  Commonwealth,  of  full  age, 
who  contribute  to  the  public  revenue  !  I  know  who  it  was  that  first  said  it — and  I 
know  how  little  logic  can  avail  to  refute  faith — but  if  undeniable  facts  have  any  vir- 
tue in  argument,  our  opponents  have  been  at  the  pains  to  collect  such  facts  as  com- 
mon reason,  not  sustained  by  faith,  v/ill  hardly  be  able  to  resist.  They  have  called  on 
the  Auditor,  for  "  a  statement  of  the  number  of  persons  in  each  county  and  town 
charged  with  a  State  tax  for  the  year  lc28'"— and,  for  "  a  statement  of  the  number  of 
persons,  charged  on  the  land  books  of  IS^-S,  with  taxes  on  a  quantity  of  land  not  less 
than  twenty-five  acres,  or  on  a  lot  or  part  of  a  lot  in  town."  These  statements  have 
been  laid  before  us.*  The  first  ascertains  the  number  of  tax-payers,  to  whom  it  is 
proposed  by  some  to  extend  the  Right  of  Suffrage ;  the  other  ascertains  with  sufii- 
cient  accuracy,  the  number  of  freehold  estates  of  the  extent  which  gives  the  Right  of 
Suffrage.  And  it  appears,  that  the  number  of  freeiiolds  is  ninety-two  thousand  eight 
hundred  and  fifty- six — and  the  number  of  tax-payers  only  ninety-five  tliousand  five 
hundred  and  ninety- three.  There  ought  to  be  a  deduction  from  the  number  of  free- 
holds, on  account  of  the  double,  or  rather  the  manifold  charges  of  the  same  land  on 
the  commissioners'  books  of  the  Western  counties,  in  consequence  of  the  number  of 
patents  that  have  been  issued  for  the  same  tracts:  my  friend  from  Spottsylvania  (Mr. 
Stanard)  thinks  this  deduction  ought  to  be  ten  thousand — which  will  leave  the  number 
of  freeholders  about  eighty-two  thousand.  The  deductions  of  femes  covert  and  mi- 
nors are  to  be  made  equally  from  both  lists.  It  is  apparent  the  number  of  freeholders 
is  to  that  of  the  tax-payers  (which,  of  course,  includes  all  the  freeholders)  more  than 
eight  to  ten.  And,  then,  we  have  an  oligarchy — a  Government  of  a  ftic — vested  in 
more  than  eight-tenths  of  the  people  1 

I  have  no  doubt  myself,  that  a  great  many  of  the  tax-payers,  who  are  not  also  free- 
holders, are  the  adult  sons  of  freeholders,  not  yet  married  and  settled  in  life  ;  because 
whoever  owns  a  horse,  pays  a  revenue  tax  ;  and,  among  that  class  of  people  in  Vir- 
ginia, who,  in  ni}^  part  of  the  State,  are  called  good-livers,  the  first  present,  which  a 
father  makes  to  his  son,  when  he  puts  on  the  toga  xirilis,  is  a  horse;  which  horse 
makes  that  son  chargeable  with  a  State  tax.  And,  gentlemen  ask,  wh}'  are  the  sons  of 
freeholders — those  sons,  who  are  to  inherit  the  lands  of  their  fathers — those  sons,  who 
have  a  cormnon  interest  in  the  soil  with  their  fathers — why  are  they  excluded  from 
the  polls  ?  1  believe,  there  would  be  little  or  no  practical  diflJerence,  in  the  mere  re- 
sult of  elections,  between  the  admission  and  the  exclusion  of  them.  But  suppose 
them  admitted  :  the  sons  would  either  vote  with  their  father,  or  against  him.  If  they 
should  vote  with  him  (as  it  is  to  be  expected  they  generally  would)  the  result  would 
only  be.  to  give  the  father  as  many  votes,  in  addition  to  his  own,  as  he  has  sons  of  full 
age.  If  they  should  vote  against  him  (and  a  puppy  scoundrel  son  may  take  a  pride 
in  voting  against  his  father)  then  they  would  only  countervail  tlieir  father's  vote,  and 
stifle  his  voice  in  the  Government — which  can  only  be  justified  by  that  very  peculiar 
trait  in  the  natural  history  of  man,  which  is  found  in  this  country,  (such  is  the  march 
of  mind),  though  never  imagined  to  exist  in  any  other  age  or  nation  under  heaven  ; 
namely,  that  the  son  is,  of  course,  wiser  than  his  father.  Has  it  come  to  this  pass.-" 
Are  the  sons  of  this  land  to  be  taught,  that  they  cannot  safel}^  trust  the  political  pow- 
ers of  the  State,  to  their  own  fathers.''  Not  only  are  all  sentiments  of  generous  chi- 
valry to  be  decried,  renounced,  banished  from  our  society — not  only  is  the  order  of 
private  gentleman  to  be  abolished,  as  aristocratic  and  odious — but  even  filial  piety  is 
to  be  discouraged  as  incompatible  with  civil  liberty.  What  manner  of  democracy  is 
this  which  teaches  these  doctrines  of  impiety  and  abomination  Not  that  democracy 
which  our  fathers  loved  and  cherished — no.  Sir ;  but  a  siren  democracy — gifted  wnth 
the  voice  of  the  charmer,  indeed,  and  with  face  and  breast  of  maiden  beauty,  but  de- 
clining into  a  foul  and  scaly  serpent  armed  witli  mortal  stin^r.  Prccv.l '.  O  Procul! 
Sooner  would  I  embrace  monarchy  at  once,  in  any  form,  than  democracy  of  that 
family,  which  is  sure  after  years  of  crime  and  blood  and  horror,  to  engender  mihtary 
despotism. 

We  are  urged  to  aboHsh  the  freehold  qualification  of  Suffrage,  in  order  (as  we  are 
gravely  told)  to  subvert  the  lowland  oligarchy — the  lowland  aristocracy — the  aris- 
tocracy of  wealth  !  And  of  the  existence  of  this  aristocracy  of  wealth,  there  stands 
Col.  William  Allen  of  Surry,  the  living  example  and  proof!  Truly,  Sir,  but  for  him, 
I  apprehend  gentlemen  would  have  been  somewhat  at  a  loss  to  find  an  instance  to 
their  purpose.  That  gentleman  inherited  a  large  estate  from  his  ancestors,  and  in- 
stead of  squandering  it  away,  he  has  kept  it  together,  and  improved  his  fortune; 
which,  in  my  opinion,  is  proof  of  good  sense  and  virtue  too.  fie  owns  some  thou- 
sands of  acres  of  land,  and  certainly  a  large  number  of  slaves — eight  hundred,  I  think  we 
were  told  at  the  commencement  of  our  session,  but  now  (wonderful  increase)  twelve 

*  See  these  statements  appended  to  the  Joiunal  of  the  Convention,  Nos.  6,  7. 


404 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


hundred — and  he  has  a  park  stocked  with  deer — and  he  undoubtedly  drinks,  or  rather 
gives  his  guests  to  drink,  the  oldest  and  best  wine  in  Virginia.  Long  may  he  live,  say 
I,  to  enjoy  it  all !  Because  there  are  a  few,  a  very  few,  wealthy  individuals  among 
us,  it  seems  to  be  supposed,  that  the  great  body  of  our  freeholders  are  opulent.  Gen- 
tlemen take  no  note  of  Col.  Allen's  poor  neighbors.  The  wealthy  freeholders  !  Would 
to  heaven,  they  were  wealthy  !  I  am  sorry  to  know,  with  perfect  certainty,  that  the 
reverse  is  the  true  state  of  their  condition  ;  it  is  mockery  to  taunt  them  with  their  over- 
grown wealth.  The  statute  of  descents  is  alone  sufficient  to  prevent  the  possible 
growth  of  aristocracy.  This  talk  of  the  lowland  aristocracy — the  landed  aristocracy — 
the  aristocracy  of  wealth — is  downright  slang. 

Gentlemen  have  advanced  one  argument  against  the  freehold  qualification,  which, 
from  the  frequency  with  which  they  have  recurred  to  it,  and  the  earnestness  with 
which  they  have  pressed  it  upon  us,  I  suppose  they  think  irrefragable — a  sort  of  ar- 
gumentum  ad  hcminem,  or  rcductio  ad  ahsurdum,  which  they  seem  to  think  it  impos- 
sible to  escape  from  or  resist — an  argument,  therefore,  which  it  is  my  business  to  state 
and  meet  fairly  and  directly.  Indeed,  to  some  it  might  seem  uncourteous,  and  to 
others  sheer  recreancy,  if  I  were  to  decline  it.  The  argument  is  this — Gentlemen 
say  to  us,  if  you  contend,  that,  in  framing  a  Republican  Constitution  of  Government 
for  the  State,  a  freehold  landed  qualification  of  Suffrage  is  wise  and  proper,  in  order 
to  preserve  a  due  regard  to  the  interests  of  property  in  the  ordinary  administration  of 
public  affairs,  why  do  you  not  carry  the  principle  out  to  all  its  consequences  and  to  its 
utmost  extent,  and  allowing  one  vote  to  the  man  that  owns  ten  acres  of  land  (for  in- 
stance,) allow  ten  votes  to  the  owner  of  a  hundred,  and  fifty  to  the  owner  of  five  hun- 
dred acres,  and  so  on  ?  Will  you  pretend,  that  this  would  be  right  or  that  it  would 
be  compatible  with  the  true  principles  of  a  Representative  Republic  ?  I  answer,  with- 
out hesitation,  no.  But,  in  the  first  place,  the  argument,  if  of  force  to  condemn  the 
freehold  qualification,  concludes  against  a  property  qualification  of  Suffrage  of  any 
kind;  and  is  inconsistent  with  the  views  of  every  man,  who  is  not  for  Universal  Suf- 
frage in  the  utmost  latitude  ever  lieard  of.  In  the  next  place,  I  by  no  means  allow, 
with  respect  to  any  moral  or  political  principle  whatever,  that  because  it  would  end 
in  vice  or  folly  if  pushed  to  extremes,  it  is  therefore  vitious  and  unwise,  when  ap- 
plied with  moderation  and  caution  ;  for  I  doubt,  whether  there  is  a  single  moral  or  po- 
litical truth,  however  generally  admitted  and  acted  upon  by  men,  that  might  not  be 
condemned  by  the  same  process  of  reasoning.  Then,  Sir,  we  have  never  contended, 
that  an  undiLC  influence  in  the  Government  should  be  allowed  to  property,  but  that 
due  regard  and  consideration  should  be  had  to  the  interests  of  property,  and  only  so 
much  weight  allowed  to  it  in  the  Constitution  of  the  Government,  as  will  suffice  for 
its  preservation  and  security  ;  and  the  fair  state  of  the  question  is,  whether,  in  insisting 
on  the  freehold  qualification,  we  ask  more  than  political  prudence  dictates.?  Now, 
Sir,  the  owner  of  a  thousand,  or  ten  thousand  acres  of  land,  may  safely  trust  the 
owner  of  a  hundred  acres,  or  of  ten,  with  an  equal  share  of  power  over  property,  and 
especially  over  taxation ;  in  other  words,  with  an  equal  vote  at  the  polls,  because  the 
owner  of  the  smaller  property,  has  a  common  interest  with  the  ov/ner  of  the  larger; 
he  must  feel  precisely  the  same  kind  of  interest  in  every  public  measure,  which  affects 
the  owners  of  real  estate,  either  beneficially  or  injuriously;  and  as  the  modicum  of  the 
poorer  freeholder,  and  the  broader  lands  of  his  more  opulent  neighbour,  are  equally 
dear  to  the  respective  proprietors,  each  will  unite  with  the  other  to  promote  or  defend 
the  interest  of  all.  If  the  poor  freeholder  contributes  less,  his  means  of  contribution  are 
less ;  the  burden  is  proportioned  to  the  ability ;  and  the  more  opulent  freeholder  finds 
ample  security  in  the  self-love  of  the  poorer,  and  the  poorer  in  that  of  the  more  opu- 
lent. All  we  desire  is,  to  place  the  political  power  of  the  State,  in  the  hands  of  those 
who  have  a  community  of  interest  in  whatever  befals  the  State,  whether  of  weal  or 
woe. 

Comparisons  have  been  inade  between  the  condition  of  Virginia,  who  has  so  long 
and  so  pertinaciously  adhered  to  her  freehold  qualification  of  Suffrage,  and  that  of  our 
sister  States,  who  have  adopted  more  liberal  principles,  in  this  particular;  and,  in 
painting  the  portrait  of  Virginia,  gentlemen  seem  to  have  thought  that  nothing  but 
shade  is  necessary  to  a  likeness,  and  in  the  portraits  of  our  sister  States,  nothing  but 
light.  Where,  they  ask,  are  our  arts,  our  literature,  our  manufactures,  our  commerce  ? 
What  is  the  state  of  our  agriculture  What  has  become  of  our  political  rank  and  emi- 
nence in  the  Union  ?  Whither,  in  the  language  of  Henry,  whither  has  the  Genius  of 
Virginia  fled  ?  As  to  arts  (if  gentlemen  mean  the  fine  arts)  and  literature,  I  grant  we 
have  a  very  moderate  share  indeed  of  the  one,  afld  none  of  the  otlier — but,  whether 
owing  to  my  ignorance,  or  to  my  national  vanity,  or  national  prejudices,  I  have  never 
been  sensible  of  any  great  superiority  of  our  fellow-citizens  of  other  States  in  these 
respects,  while  I  am  very  sensible  of  the  very  great  inferiority  of  us  all  to  the  nations 
of  Europe,  though  none  of  them  enjoy,  and  not  one  (I  believe)  is  capable  of  enjoying, 
the  blessing  of  Republican  Government  in  any  form.  Gentlemen  will  hardly,  upon 
reflection,  impute  our  defects  in  arts  and  in  letters,  to  the  freehold  quahfication  of 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


405 


Suflfrage.  And  how  any  man  can  impute  the  low  state  of  our  manufactures,  and  the 
decay  of  our  trade,  to  any  measures  or  to  any  neglect  of  the  State  Government,  I  am 
wholly  at  a  loss  to  imagine  ;  since  the  interests  of  commerce  belong  exclusively  to  the 
Federal  Government  ;"and  it  has  assumed  the  care  of  manufactures  also — but  I  do  not 
mean  to  discuss  the  justice  or  the  policy  of  that  system  of  measures.  But  that  which 
seems  to  me.  the  oddest  of  all  the  oddities  and  novelties  which  I  have  heard  advanced 
on  this  floor ,'is  the  opinion,  that  the  languishing  condition  of  our  agriculture,  is  owing 
to  the  nefflect  of  that  great  interest  by  the  State  Government,  and  that  neglect  im- 
putable to~the  circumstance  of  all  political  power  being  vested  in  the  allodial  cultiva- 
tors of  the  soil.  For  my  own  part,"^!  only  wish  the  Federal  Government  would  unite 
with  the  State  Government,  in  leaving  manufactures  and  commerce  and  agriculture 
to  their  natural  course — but  this  no  wise  concerns  our  present  question;  and,  I  say 
again,  I  shall  not  enter  into  that  field.  But,  say  gentlemen,  Virginia  has  declined, 
and  is  declining — she  was  once  the  first  State  in  the  Union — now  she  has  sunk  to  be 
the  third,  and  will  soon  sink  lower  in  the  scale — New  York  has  taken  the  lead  of  her. 
I  envy  not  the  pre-eminence  of  New  York,  or  of  any  other  State,  in  population  or  in 
wealth.  Do  gentlemen  really  believe,  that  it  is  owing  to  any  diversity  in  the  princi- 
ples of  the  State  Governments  of  the  two  States,  that  New  York  has  advanced  to  be 
the  first  State  in  the  Union,  and  that  Virginia,  from  being  the  first,  is  now  the  third, 
in  wealth  and  population  ?  Virginia  ceded  away  her  Kentucky,  to  form  a  new  State  ; 
and  New  York  has  retained  her  Genessee — there  lies  the  whole  secret.  The  conduct 
of  both  States  was  determined  by  a  just  regard  to  the  geographical  situation  of  their 
original  territory;  and  I  am  well  content,  that  Virginia  did  make  the  cession,  and  that 
New  York  retained  her  territory.  The  truth  is,  that  so  long  as  new  and  fertile  lands 
remain  to  be  settled  in  the  Western  States,  the  old  States  never  can  advance  in 
population,  as  rapidly  as  they  otherwise  would;  and  of  all  the  old  States,  none  has 
contributed  more  to  the  peopling  of  the  new  States,  than  Virginia — I  dare  to  say,  not 
one  so  much.  This  is  fne  reason  of  what  gentlemen  call  the  decline  of  Virginia. 
Her  Government  could  not  by  any  conceivable  means  have  prevented  it ;  nor  if  it 
could,  ought  it  to  have  done  so.  Virginia,  in  common  with  most  of  the  old  States, 
must  of  necessity  forego,  for  a  long  time  to  come,  the  advantages  of  a  full  population  ; 
and  may,  meanwhile,  content  herself  with  an  exemption  from  the  evils  incident  to  a 
State  of  a  crowded  population.  Is  Virginia  inferiour  to  any  of  her  sister  States,  in 
social  peace  and  happiness,  in  intellig.ence,  in  the  virtues  of  private  life,  in  political 
purity,  in  national  character.?  No,  Sir — I  say,  proudly  and  confidently,  no.  I  shall 
not  vaunt  of  her  superiorit}^ — but  I  acknowledge  no  inferiority.  I  have  been  happy 
to  observe,  that  if  she  has,  at  times,  been  an  object  of  some  jealousy  in  other  States, 
she  has  still  always  enjoyed  the  respect  of  them  all.  And  I  shall  add  (what  is  pecu- 
liarly pertinent  to  the  present  debate)  that  she  has  been  chiefly  respected  for  the  even 
tenor  of  her  system,  and  the  steadiness  and  probity  of  her  character  and  her  course; 
which  the  most  sagacious  Statesmen  of  other  States — I  say  it  with  the  most  perfect 
conviction,  or  rather  the  most  certain  knowledge — have  attributed,  mainly,  to  this  very 
principle  of  the  freehold  qualification  of  Sufl'i-age,  which  it  is  now  proposed  to  abolish. 

And,  Sir,  the  only  point  of  comparison  between  the  condition  of  Virginia  and  that 
of  any  of  our  sister  States,  which  is  at  all  pertinent  to  the  present  question,  is  the 
comparison  of  the  practical  effects  of  Universal  or  General  Suffrage  in  those  States 
in  which  it  has  been  adopted,  with  those  of  the  freehold  qualification  of  Suffrage  in 
Virginia :  a  point  on  which  it  vrould  not  become  me  to  speak  my  thoughts  with  per- 
fect freedom.  I  talve  a  deep  interest  in  whatever  concerns  the  happiness  of  our  sister 
Slates — not  so  deep,  indeed,  as  that  I  feel  for  my  own  State,  to  which  I  owe  and 
cherish  the  most  perfect  allegiance  of  mind  and  heart — but  yet  a  deep  and  sincere 
interest.  I  am  the  last  man  to  take  pleasure  in  finding  fault  with  their  institutions, 
much  less  with  the  political  character  or  conduct  of  their  citizens ;  to  think  hardly 
concerning  them,  or  to  speak  unkindly.  I  hope  it  will  not  be  thought  inconsistent 
with  these  sentiments,  if  I  say,  as  I  must  say  to  this  Committee,  that  I  have  never 
conversed  with  any  observant  reflecting  man,  who  has  migrated  from  Virginia  to  a 
land  where  Universal  or  General  Suffrage  prevails,  who  has  not  earnestly  deprecated 
the  abandonment  of  the  freehold  qualification  in  this  his  native  State  ;  and  that  I 
have  never  known  any  Virginian,  that  had  witnessed  an  election  campaign,  or  even 
a  single  scene  of  contested  election,  in  New  York,  Pennsylvania,  Maryland  or  Ken- 
tucky, however  he  may  have  been  smitten  with  a  passion  for  reform  in  this  particuleir 
before  he  left  home,  who  did  not  return  completely  cured  of  it.  Neither  does  the 
passion  ever  recur.  [Here  a  member  said  aloud — "  It  is  like  the  small  pox."]  Yes, 
Sir — it  is  like  the  small  pox  in  that  respect — but  there  is  this  difference,  that  distance 
seems  necessary  to  the  communication  of  the  Universal  Suffrage  fever — a  near  ex- 
posure to  it,  in  its  utmost  intensity,  generally  proves  a  cure  and  an  antidote.  A  close 
observation  of  the  practical  workings  of  the  principle  of  Universal  Suffrage,  has 
rarely  if  ever  failed  to  produce  disgust,  reprobation,  deprecation.  Shall  we  learn 
wisdom  from  the  great  State  of  New  York,  and  profit  by  her  experience  and  exam- 


406 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


pie  ?  Her  example,  Sir,  is  a  beacon  to  warn,  not  a  guide  to  direct.  I  will  not  say— 
for  I  do  not  think — that  the  scenes  which  but  yesterday  were  exhibited  in  the  elec- 
tions held  in  the  city  of  New  York — the  open  attack  on  the  very  principle  of  pro- 
perty, and  on  the  principles  of  all  regular  Government,  which  excited  serious  alarm 
there — that  these  scenes  afford  any  fair  criterion  of  the  sentiments  of  the  body  of  the 
people  of  the  State  of  New  York.  But,  Sir,  they  afford  abundant  evidence,  to  my 
mind,  that  the  poison  has  begun  to  work ;  and  they  afford  us  a  lesson  and  a  warning, 
by  which  we  shall  profit  if  we  are  wise,  never  to  administer  a  drop  of  that  same 
poison  to  our  own  body  politic.  As  to  our  sister  Maryland,  the  practical  operation  of  her 
Universal  Suffrage,  is  more  open  to  our  observation,  from  her  nearer  neighbourhood; 
and  I  shall  say,  that  it  was  the  actual  view  of  it  there,  that  first  cured  me  of  that 
plausible  and  tempting  but  deluding  philosophy  (so  called)  which  most  men  imbibe 
in  their  youth,  and  which  teaches  that  civil  liberty  is  so  good,  that  there  is  no  neces- 
sity for  moderation  in  the  enjoyment  of  it — that  no  intemperance  can  disturb  its 
healthful  action.  I  received,  very  recently,  by  the  mail,  a  newspaper  printed  at 
Cumberland  in  that  State,  with  a  note  on  the  margin,  calling  my  attention  to  an  ad- 
vertisement of  nine  hundred  and  forty  acres  of  land,  for  sale  by  a  constable,  to  satisfy 
a  judgment  rendered  by  a  single  justice  of  the  peace  ;  and  with  this  remark — "  See 
the  effect  of  Universal  Suffrage."  Neither  do  1  doubt,  in  the  least,  that  the  principle 
tends,  in  its  practical  operation,  to  indifference  and  unconcern  for  the  rights  of  pro- 
perty, and  especially  of  real  property.  How  can  it  be  otherwise,  when  those  who 
hold  no  property,  have  a  full  share  of  the  Government  on  which  the  security  of  pro- 
perty depends.?  In  many,  perhaps,  in  most  of  the  States,  where  the  principle  of  Uni- 
versal, or  General,  or  Extended,  or  Free  Suffrage  (call  it  by  which  name  you  please) 
prevails,  I  observe,  the  ballot  has  been  substituted  for  the  old  method  of  voting  viva 
voce,  on  the  avowed  principle,  that  it  is  necessary  to  enable  the  voter  to  give  his  vote 
with  independence,  that  he  should  be  allowed  to  vote  secretly.  Now,  the  introduc- 
tion of  the  ballot,  as  part  of  the  system  and  proper  acco'mpaniment  of  Universal 
Suffrage,  is  a  plain  distinct  acknowledgement,  that  the  Right  of  Suffrage  is  extended 
too  far — extended  to  men  who  cannot  be  expected  to  give  an  independent  vote,  openly, 
in  the  face  of  day — to  men  liable  to  the  influence  of  others,  and  desirous  to  conciliate 
their  favour,  or  to  avoid  their  resentment.  And  this  method  of  preserving  the  spirit 
of  political  independence,  by  substituting  the  ballot  for  the  pubhc  poll  and  viva  voce 
vote,  I  fully  expected  to  hear  proposed  to  us,  as  part  of  our  plan  of  reform.  It  is  a 
very  odd  expedient  for  cherishing  the  pohtical  independence  of  the  citizen,  to  take 
away  all  occasion  for  the  exercise  of  it ;  as  if  political  independence  were  not  a  virtue 
of  the  mind,  and,  like  all  other  virtues  and  faculties,  sure  to  be  invigorated  by  exer- 
cise, and  to  wane  and  be  extinguished  by  inaction.  One  remark  more,  before  I  leave 
this  topic — I  pray  gentlemen  to  observe,  how  generally  the  introduction  of  Universal 
Suffrage  has  been  followed  by  the  caucus  system  of  nomination — I  know  the  name 
of  caucus  has  recently  been  discarded,  and  that  caucuses,  now  a  days,  are  conven- 
tions, but  the  only  difference  is  the  name — caucuses  or  conventions  to  make  a  regular 
nomination  of  candidates,  to  discipline  parties,  to  whip  in  all  who  hope  a  share  of  the 
loaves  and  fishes  in  their  turn,  and  to  whip  out  all  who  show  a  disposition  to  rebel 
against  "regular  nomination."  They  cheat  the  people  with  the  shew  of  popular  elec- 
tion ;  the  elective  body,  in  fact,  is  the  caucus.  Where  there  is  a  people  capable  of 
being  drilled,  there  will  not  be  wanting  leaders  to  drill  them.  The  freeholders  of 
Virginia  require  no  caucus  or  convention,  to  direct  them  how  they  are  to  vote — they 
require  no  drilling,  and  would  submit  to  none — they  want  no  ballot-box  to  hide  their 
votes  from  their  neighbours,  and  to  screen  them  from  the  indignation  of  others — they 
'feel  their  independence,  and  it  costs  them  no  effort  to  exercise  it  on  all  occasions. 

Gentlemen  tell  me,  however,  that  men  who  have  once  enjoyed  the  blessing  of 
Universal  Suffrage,  can  never  be  induced  to  forego  it — that  the  farmers  of  Pennsyl- 
vania and  Maryland,  are  not  to  be  tempted  by  the  offer  of  the  most  beneficial  leases, 
to  migrate  hither ;  and  our  landholders  can  get  no  tenants,  because  the  requisition  of 
the  freehold  qualification  debars  such  tenants  from  the  invaluable  privilege  of  Suffrage, 
If  this  is  meant  as  an  argumentative  deduction  from  the  supposed  operation  of  politi- 
cal causes,  I  have  nothing  to  say  to  it :  but  if  intended  as  the  assertion  of  a  matter  of 
fact,  I  must  say,  that  I  am  incredulous.  Let  gentlemen  name  a  single  instance,  in 
which  any  man  has  been  prevented  from  migrating  to  Virginia,  by  any  consideration 
of  the  laws  regulating  Suffrage.  I  should  be  curious  to  see  such  a  man — for  sure  I 
am  that  I  should  see  the  most  thorough  bred  philosopher  of  modern  times,  or  at  least 
a  sample  of  the  utmost  extreme  of  political  fanaticism.  The  true  reason,  I  apprehend, 
why  the  farmers  of  Pennsylvania  and  Maryland,  do  not  turn  their  attention  to  the 
beneficial  leases  which  court  them  in  Virginia,  is,  that  if  they  find  it  prudent  to  mi- 
grate at  all,  they  know  very  well  whither  to  go,  to  procure  land,  and  the  best  land, 
upon  the  easiest  terms,  in  absolute  property,  which  they  may  enjoy  during  fife,  and 
leave  to  their  children.  If  the  good  people  who  dwell  on  our  northern  border,  hope 
advantage  of  this  kind  from  the  proposed  reform,  I  fear  that  hope  will  be  disappointed. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


407 


It  is  remarkable — I  mention  it  for  the  curiosity  of  the  fact — that,  if  any  evil,  physi- 
cal or  moral,  arise  in  any  of  the  States  south  of  us,  it  never  takes  a  nortlierly  direc- 
tion, or  taints  the  southern  breeze  ;  whereas  if  any  plague  originate  in  the  North,  it  is 
sure  to  spread  to  the  South  and  to  invade  us  sooner  or  later  :  the  influenza — the  small- 
pox— the  varioloid — the  Hessian  fly — the  Circuit  Court  system — Universal  Sulfrage — 
all  come  from  the  North — and  they  always  cross  above  the  falls  of  the  great  rivers : 
below,  it  seems,  the  broad  expanse  of  waters  interposing,  effectually  arrests  their 
progress. 

Ilhought  before  the  Convention  met,  that  I  was  already  familiar  with  the  utmost 
extravagance  of  theoretical  politics ;  but  I  have  heard  one  proposition  advanced  on 
this  floor,  which  is  absolutely  new  to  me — namely,  that  none  but  those  who  are  al- 
lowed the  exercise  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  are  citizens — that  all  who  are  denied  that 
right,  are.  in  every  just  political  view,  slaves.  Whence  I  learn,  that  our  mothers, 
wives  and  daughters  are  not  and  never  can  be  citizens;  and  that  our  sons  never  be- 
come citizens  till  they  attain  the  age  of  twenty-one  years,  and  acquire  the  legal  qua- 
lification of  Suffrage,  whatever  it  may  be.  For  my  own  part,  I  fondly  imagine,  that 
the  mother  who  bore  me  was  a  free  woman  and  a  Virginian  citizen — that  Iny  wife, 
and  my  children — male  and  female,  are  free  born  citizens  of  Virginia — and  that  I 
myself  enjoyed  exactly  the  same  civil  liberty  before  I  attained  to  full  acre  as  I  have 
ever  done  since — in  short,  that  civil  liberty,  much  more  citizenship,  depends  not  at 
all  on  the  right  to  exercise  political  powers.  Neither  shall  I  render  any  thanks,  (for 
I  feel  no  gratitude)  to  those  who  have  taken  the  pains  to  correct  mv  errors  in  these 
points.  It  is,  indeed,  a  great  blessing — it  is  the  first  and  the  highest  of  social  bless- 
ings— to  live  under  a  regular,  free,  Representative  Republican  Government;  to  be- 
long to  a  society,  fitted  to  enjo}-,  capable  of  enjoying,  such  a  Government;  but  neither 
the  blessing  itself,  nor  any  happiness  which  it  can  confer  upon  any  individual,  de- 
pends on  the  right  of  that  individual  to  exercise,  in  his  own  person,  the  Rig-ht  of  Suf- 
frage. The  blessing  of  free  Government,  and  all  the  happiness  that  can^flow  from 
it,  is  best  secured  to  each  individual,  by  the  wisest  general"  regulation  of  that  ricrht 
whether  such  regulation  admits  him  or  excludes  him.  And  in'  this  view  of  the  sub- 
ject, gentlemen  will  see,  upon  a  little  reflection,  the  general  opinions  and  feelincrs  of 
men  concur  with  perfect  unanimity:  for  no  one  ever  heard  of  any  vendor  of  land 
demanding  any  consideration  for  the  surrender  of  his  Right  of  Suffraofe  in  making 
the  alienation,  or  of  any  purchasers  advancing  a  cent  more  in  the  price^for  the  acqui- 
sition of  the  right ;  and  though  I  have  known  many  to  buy  freeholds,  in  order  to  en- 
title themselves  to  receive  the  votes  of  others,  I  have  never  known  any  man  to  buy- 
land .  merely  for  the  sake  of  acquiring  a  right  to  vote,  however  trivial  the  cos't 
would  be. 

It  has  been  said,  that  the  people,  that  the  great  body  of  the  freeholders  themselves 
are  not  only  willing  but  desirous  to  abolish  the  freehold  qualification — that  the  desire 
to  reform  the  Constitution  in  this  respect,  was  the  ruling  motive  which  led  to  the 
calling  of  this  Convention.  Willing  the  freeholders  may  be.  and  I  believe  are.  to  ex- 
tend the  Right  of  Suffrage,  as  I  propose  to  extend  it,  to  all  who  come  within  the  rea- 
son of  the  principle  of  freehold  qualification — but,  that  they  are  willing  to  abolish  the 
principle  itself,  I  never  can  believe.  The  vote  in  favour  of  calhng^  Convention 
given  by  the  freeholders  in  this  cismontane  part  of  the  State,  I  am  sure  was  dictated 
by  no  such  motive.  I  do  know  that  many,  very  many  of  them,  were  cheated  into  a 
belief  that  the  freehold  qualification  was  in  no  danger;  and  I  heard  a  member  of  the 
Legislature,  and  as  sagacious  a  man  as  any  in  Virginia,  declare,  that  he  gave  his  vote 
for  a  Convention,  in  the  firm  belief  that  it  would  put  an  end  to  all  disputes  about  the 
Right  of  Suffrage,  and  confirm  and  establish  the  freehold  qualification  forever.  He 
was  sincere,  but  he  was  deluded. 

I  little  expected,  Sir.  after  what  passed  in  this  Committee,  in  the  debate  upon  the 
question  of  the  basis  of  Representation,  to  see  the  attempt  renewed,  in  this  place,  to 
discredit  the  Convention  of  1776,  and  the  Constitution  it  framed  for  the  State,  by  re- 
ference to  the  untoward  circumstances  in  which  it  was  placed — but  we  have  been 
again  told,  that  that  illustrious  body  was  in  a  state  of  too  much  hurry  and  alarm  to 
execute  with  due  deliberation  a  work  so  important;  that  the  enemy  was  at  their  door* 
and  the  roar  of  hostile  cannon  resounding  in  their  ears;  that  other  and  more  pressing 
affairs  occupied  their  attention;  and  that,  therefore,  (as  gentlemen  would  have  us  in- 
fer) they  were  content  to  leave  the  qualification  of  the  Right  of  Suffrao-e  as  they 
found  it  in  the  Colonial  Government,  rather  than  devote  the  necessary  tune  to  irn- 
prove  it.  It  has  been  already  shewn,  that  no  part  of  this  representation  is  justified 
in  point  of  fact,  by  the  truth  of  history ;  and  I  shall  not  repeat  what  has  been  better 
said  by  other  gentlemen.  I  have  always  thouglit,  and  shall  forever  tliink,  that  the 
circumstances  in  which  the  Convention  of  1776  were  placed,  were  the  most  propitious 
imaginable  to  the  work  tliat  body  had  to  perform ;  precisely  the  circumstances  best 
calculated  to  repress  the  spirit  of  faction,  and  to  kindle  every  spark  of  patriotism :  to 
stimulate  political  wisdom  to  its  utmost  exertion,  to  force  men  to  look  only  to  practical 


408 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


good,  to  stifle  all  propensity  to  the  vain  speculations  of  theory,  and  to  enforce  on  them 
the  observance  of  the  lessons  of  experience.  But  I  find  my  sentiments  on  this  sub- 
ject expressed  so  exactly,  so  clearly,  and  so  forcibly,  by  another  and  a  far  wiser  man 
than  ever  I  hope  to  be,  that  I  shall  borrow  his  language — and  I  do  so  the  rather,  be- 
cause, very  probably,  it  was  the  source  from  which  my  own  sentiments  were  origi- 
nally derived.  The  writer  of  the  69th  number  of  the  Federalist — I  know  not  which 
of  the  three  it  was — speaking  of  a  celebrated  scheme  of  Constitution-mendmg,  by 
which  it  was  proposed,  "  that  whenever  any  two  of  the  three  branches  of  the  Govern- 
ment, shall  concur  in  opinion,  each  by  the  voices  of  two-thirds  of  their  whole  number, 
that  a  Convention  is  necessary  for  altering  the  Constitution  or  correcting  the  breaches 
of  it,  a  Convention  shall  be  called  for  the  purpose" — says  :  It  may  be  considered  as 
an  objection  inherent  in  the  principle,  that  as  every  appeal  to  the  people  would  carry 
an  implication  of  some  defect  in  the  Government,  frequent  appeals  would  in  great 
measure  deprive  the  Government  of  that  veneration  which  time  bestows  on  every 
thing,  and  without  which  perhaps  the  wisest  and  freest  Governments  would  not  pos- 
sess the  requisite  stability.  If  it  be  true,  that  all  Governments  rest  on  opinion,  it  is 
no  less  true  that  the  strength  of  opinion  in  each  individual,  and  its  practical  influence 
on  his  conduct,  depend  much  on  the  number  which  he  supposes  to  have  entertained 
the  same  opinion.  The  reason  of  man,  like  man  himself,  is  timid  and  cautious,  when 
left  alone;  and  acquires  firmness  and  confidence,  in  proportion  to  the  number  with 
which  it  is  associated.  When  the  examples,  which  fortify  opinion,  are  ancient  as  well 
as  mimerous,  they  are  known  to  have  a  double  effect.  In  a  nation  of  philosophers, 
this  consideration  ought  to  be  disregarded.  A  reverence  for  the  laws,  would  be  suf- 
ficiently inculcated  by  the  voice  of  an  enlightened  reason.  But  a  nation  of  philoso- 
phers is  as  little  to  be  expected,  as  the  philosophical  race  of  Kings  wished  for  by  Plato. 
And  in  every  other  nation,  the  most  rational  Government  will  not  find  it  a  superflu- 
ous advantage  to  have  the  prejudices  of  the  community  on  its  side.  The  danger  of 
disturbing  the  public  tranquillity  by  interesting  too  strongly  the  public  passions,  is  a 
still  more  serious  objection  against  a  frequent  reference  of  Constitutional  questions, 
to  the  decision  of  the  whole  society.  Notwithstanding  the  success  which  has  attended 
the  revisions  of  our  established  forms  of  Government,  and  which  does  so  much  honour 
to  the  virtue  and  intelhgence  of  the  people  of  America,  it  must  be  confessed,  that  the 
experiments  are  of  too  ticklish  a  nature  to  be  unnecessarily  multiplied.  We  are  to 
recollect,  that  all  the  existing  Constitutions  were  formed  in  the  midst  of  a  danger 
which  repressed  the  passions  most  unfriendly  to  order  and  concord  ;  of  an  enthusiastic 
confidence  of  the  people  in  their  patriotic  leaders,  which  stifled  the  ordinary  diversity 
of  opinions  on  great  national  questions ;  of  a  universal  ardor  for  new  and  opposite 
forms,  produced  by  a  universal  resentment  and  indignation  against  the  ancient  Go- 
vernment ;  and  whilst  no  spirit  of  party,  connected  with  the  changes  to  be  made,  or 
the  abuses  to  be  reformed,  could  mingle  its  leaven  in  the  operation.  The  future  situ- 
ations in  which  we  must  expect  to  be  usually  placed,  do  not  present  any  equivalent 
security  against  the  danger  which  is  apprehended."  Now,  I  pray  gentlemen  to  hear- 
ken to  these  words  of  wisdom,  and  to  weigh  them  well.  As  to  that  veneration  for 
ancient  institutions,  which  has  hitherto  constituted  the  great  moral  force  of  our  Go- 
vernment, and  sufficed  alone  to  execute  the  laws  ;  all  that  is  gone — forever  gone — 
extinguished  by  the  agitation  which  produced  this  Convention.  Our  children  will 
hardly  comprehend  the  sentiment.  Then,  let  gentlemen,  if  they  can  bear  to  do  so, 
institute  a  comparison  between  the  Convention  of  1776  and  this  body.  That  Conven- 
tion, after  full  and  free  debate,  adopted  the  Constitution  it  framed,  by  an  unanimous 
vote.  This  Convention  is  torn  by  dissensions,  and  divided  by  parties  marked  by  geo- 
graphical lines — incited  by  mutual  opposition  to  the  extremes  of  political  animosity — 
engaged  (in  the  opinion  of  one  party  at  least)  in  a  mere  contest  for  power ;  such  a  con- 
test, as  in  any  other  country  on  earth,  and,  but  for  a  sense  of  the  controlling  influence 
of  the  General  Government,  in  this  country  too,  would  and  could  only  be  decided  by 
the  sword.  No  good  that  we  can  now  accomplish,  can  ever  compensate  for  the  mis- 
chief which  this  contest  has  already  engendered,  and  entailed  upon  the  State. 

I  am  not  casting  censure  on  others — 1  take  to  myself  my  full  share  of  blame  for  the 
heats,  which  the  collision  of  interests  and  opinions  have  produced  in  this  assembly — 
my  heart  rises  above  all  petty  personal  resentments  and  party  views,  and  feels  only 
for  the  woes  of  ray  country.  Though  I  shall  continue  to  resist  to  the  uttermost  of  my 
power,  all  unreasonable  demands  from  the  West,  I  do  not  feel — whatever  others  may 
think  of  me — I  do  not,  I  cannot  feel  (heaven  forbid  that  I  should  !)  any  hostihty  to  my 
fellow-citizens  of  that  part  of  the  country,  any  disregard  of  their  just  rights,  any  in- 
difference for  their  happiness.  Gentlemen  who  have  any  knowledge  of  me,  must 
know,  that  these  sentiments  are  not  uttered  for  the  occasion,  to  serve  a  purpose  here. 
In  the  paper  I  addressed  to  my  countrymen  in  1824  (commonly  called  The  Substitute) 
after  having  exhibited  the  state  of  the  existing  representation  in  the  Legislature,  and 
shewed  that  the  representation  of  the  Western  counties,  compared  even  with  that  of 
the  Eastern  counties,  was  excessive,  I  said :  "  The  Western  counties  have  at  present 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVEXTION. 


409 


about  one-fourth  of  the  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates.  Comparing  the 
population  of  these  counties  (about  one  hundred  and  forty -five  thousand  five  hundred) 
with  that  of  the  Commonwealth  (about  one  million  and  fifty  thousand)  it  is  plain,  that 
no  plan  can  be  devised  for  equalizing  the  Representation,  which  will  not  reduce  their 
proportion  to  something  less  than  a  seventh.  He  who  tliinks,  that  the  people  of  those 
counties  ought  to  consent  to  such  a  diminution  of  their  weight  in  the  Legislature,  has 
no  fellow-feeling  for  them:  he  who  thinks  that  they  ever  i^i^/,  counts  the  heart  of  man 
for  nothing,  in  his  political  speculations.  The  schemes  of  equalization,  which  would 
work  such  consequences,  could  only  be  imposed  on  them  by  force.  There  is,  indeed, 
one  principle,  on  which  the  Western  people  might  consent  to  such  equalization:  one, 
on  which  they  would  lose  none  of  their  relative  strength  in  the  Legislature.  If,  in 
apportioning  the  Representation,  the  slave  population,  so  inconsiderable  in  the  Western 
counties,  so  large  in  the  Middle  and  Eastern,  shall  be  wholly  disregarded,  the  Western 
counties  will  perhaps  as  eagerly  embrace,  as  the  Middle  and  Eastern  will  strenuously 
resist,  this  blessing  of  equality.  And  let  the  attempt  be  made  when  it  will,  this  ques- 
tion, (v.-hich  seems  to  be  the  very  daemon  of  discord.)  Vvull  be  sure  to  rise  up  to  con- 
found our  peace.  In  the  apprehension  of  this  meeting,  the  ver}'  agitation  of  this 
subject  is  calculated  to  do  great  mischief.  It  is  a  searching  blast,  which  will  find  every 
weak  part  of  the  body  politic.  And  we  implore  tliose,  who  are  prosecuting  this  de- 
sign, to  beware,  lest,  while  they  mean  only  an  equitable  arrangement  of  the  Repre- 
sentation, they  be  not  strikmg  a  fatal  blow  at  the  integrity  of  the  Commonwealth. 
For,  we  feel  the  most  painful  conviction,  that  the  actual  attempt  to  execute  the  desio-n, 
will  array  in  direct  opposition,  all  the  conflicting  interests  of  the  State,  growing  out 
of  natural  diversities  in  the  face  of  the  country,  and  out  of  the  mioral  diversities  of  our 
population  ;  and  wake  into  action,  all  the  latent  causes  of  civil  contention,  v.-hich  good 
men  should  wish,  and  wise  men  should  labour,  by  all  means,  to  aiia3^"  The  same 
sentiments  I  entertained  then,  I  entertain  still.  Did  m}^  fears  magnify  the  danger? 
The  evil  has  now  come  upon  us  in  a  form  more  aggrava.ted — the  storm  is  raging  with 
greater  violence — than  even  my  anxious  mind  foreboded. 

Bat,  upon  this  question  of  the  qualification  of  Suffrage,  I  do  not  discern  any  reason 
for  difference  of  opinion  among  us,  growing  out  of  diversity  of  local  interests.  And  I 
implore  gentlemen  to  pause  in  their  adventurous  career  of  experimental  reform;  to 
preserve  every  part  of  our  ancient  institutions,  which  they  cannot  alter  with  any  cer- 
tain assurance  of  amendment;  and,  especially,  to  leave  us  unimpaired  the  essential 
principle  of  the  freehold  qualification.  If  the  State  shall  make  a  false  step  here — par- 
ticularly, here — that  step  she  can  never  hope  to  retrace,  any  more  than  we  can  recal 
the  hour  v>"hich  has  passed  away  and  brought  us  so  much  nearer  to  the  grave. 

After  Mr.  Leigh  had  concluded  his  speech,  a  short  explanation  took  place  between 
himself  and  Mr.  Doddridge,  on  a  point  of  law  involved  in  the  amendment;  when  Mr. 
D.  moved  that  the  Committee  rise. 

It  rose  accordingly-,  and  thereupon  the  House  adjom-ned. 


SATURDAY,  November  2L  1S29. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Courtney  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

The  Convention  having  again  resolved  itself  into  a  Cominittee  of  the  Whole,  Mr. 
Powell  in  the  Chair,  and  the  question  being  on  the  amendment  offered  hy  Mr.  Leigh 
of  Chesterfield  to  the  third  resolution  reported  by  the  Legislative  Committee  : 

Mr.  Doddridge,  (who,  having  moved  for  the  rising  of  the  Committee  yesterday, 
was,  by  Parliamentary  usage,  entitled  to  the  floor,)  signified  his  intention  of  yielding 
that  privilege  to  the  member  from  Amherst,  (Mr.  Thompson.)  but  previously  gave 
notice,  that  should  the  amendment  now  before  the  Committee  (Mr.  Leigh's)  be  re- 
jected, he  should  offer  the  following  amendment  to  the  third  resolution — viz  : 

Third  resolution,  second  and  third  lines — from  the  word  "  resolution."  strike  out  to 
the  word  "  provided,"  in  the  twenty-third  line,  and  insert: 

And  shall  be  extended  to  every  free  white  male  citizen,  aged  twenty-one  years  or 
upwards,  who  shall  have  resided  at  least  one  whole  year  in  the  county,  city,  borough 
or  district,  in  which  he  shall  offer  to  vote,  immediately  preceding  the  time  of  voting; 
and  who,  during  that  period,  shall  have  actually  paid  a  revenue  tax  leo-ally  assessed — 
And  to  every  free  white  male  citizen,  aged  twenty-one  years  or  upwards,  who  shall 
have  actually  resided  at  least  one  whole  year  in  the  count}-,  city,  borough  or  district, 
where  he  offers  to  vote;  and  who,  for  the  period  of  six  months  at  least,  shall  have 
been  an  house-keeper  therem." 

52  - 


410 


DEBATES   OF   TflE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  Thompson  of  Amherst,  addressed  the  Committee  as  follows  : 

Mr.  Chairman :  The  gentleman  from  Brooke,  who  by  Parliamentary  usage,  was 
entitled  to  the  floor  this  morning,  having  for  the  present  waved  his  right,  1  rise  to 
solicit  for  a  short  time  the  attention  of  the  Committee,  whilst  I  endeavom',  in  my 
poor  manner,  to  discharge  an  obligation  of  duty,  which  1  owe  to  the  constituents  in 
part  represented  by  me  m  this  Convention.  It  is,  as  you  well  know  from  personal 
experience,  Mr.  Chairman,  a  painful  and  embarrassing  duty.  I  would  to  God  it  had 
been  committed  to  other  and  abler  hands.  When  I  consider  the  time,  place,  and  cir- 
cumstances that  surround  me,  the  momentous  interests  involved  in  our  dehberations, 
and  the  weighty  responsibility  that  rests  on  each  and  every  one  of  us,  in  connection 
with  the  humility  of  my  own  pretensions,  I  almost  shrink  from  the  task  that  lies  be- 
fore me  :  but  on  the  other  hand,  when  I  call  to  mind  that  I  am  the  representative  in 
part  of  many  thousand  free-men,  who  spontaneously,  and  without  any  solicitation  of 
mine,  have  clothed  me  with  this  high,  delicate  and  responsible  trust,  all  personal  conside- 
rations vanish,  and  1  resolve  fearlessly  to  speak  their  sentiments  on  this  floor,  regardless 
of  all  the  sarcasm,  wit,  ridicule  and  even  derision,  with  which  principles  they  hold 
dear  and  sacred,  have  been  assailed  in  the  progress  of  the  debates  of  this  Convention. 
Had  not  imperious  duty,  in  ray  humble  estimation,  forbidden  silence,  my  lips  had 
been  sealed,  hermetically  sealed,  during  the  session  of  this  august  Assembly.  But  I 
should  forever  despise  myself,  if  whilst  I  am  the  representative  of  freemen,  I  could 
sit  by  in  silence  and  hear  the  sacred  and  unalienable  rights  of  man  derided,  and 
should  tamely  shrink  from  their  defence,  under  the  influence  of  any  unmanly  fear  of 
criticism,  or  of  any  personal  consequences  whatever. 

I  feel  that  I  shall  need  much  of  the  polite  attention  and  kind  indulgence  of  this 
Committee  to  sustain  me  in  the  task  I  have  imposed  on  myself ;  and  the  wonted  mag- 
nanimity and  courtesy  of  a  Virginia  Assembly,  I  am  sure,  will  always  accord  it  to  a 
member  of  its  body,  so  long  as  that  member  shall  merit  it,  by  courtesy  and  decorum 
on  his  part.  Like  an  honorable  gentleman,  who  addressed  you  on  a  former  day,  of 
this  Convention,  I  too  may  disclaim  any  intention  of  entering  the  lists  to  break  a 
lance,  with  the  redoubtable  knights  who  have  contended  for  victory  on  this  arena.  I 
have  neither  the  prowess  to  impel,  the  strength  to  sustain,  nor  the  panoply  to  protect 
me  in  so  unequal  a  conflict.  In  common  with  this  Committee,  I  have  participated  in 
the  dehght  of  listening  to  the  luminous  and  eloquent  arguments  of  gentlemen  who 
have  addressed  you  on  this  and  other  questions.  And  after  so  long  rioting  on  the 
rich  banquet  they  have  spread  before  us,  I  but  the  more  regret  that  1  have  nothing 
but  the  homeliest  fare  to  olier  in  return.  I  lament  my  inability  to  rsciprocate  hght 
for  light— I  have  the  consolation,  however,  to  know  that  the  same  spirit  which 
prompted  to  the  offering  of  the  widow's  mite,  has  dictated  this  poor  attempt  of  mine; 
and  I  therefore  trust,  that  my  offering,  however  humble,  will  meet  a  similar  fate, 
from  the  benignity  of  this  Committee.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  somewhat  regret  that  in  the 
order  of  debate,  it  is  my  lot  to  follow  the  talented  and  eloquent  gentleman  from  Ches- 
terfield. I  have  not  the  vanity  to  suppose,  under  the  most  auspicious  circumstances, 
that  I  could  interest  this  enlightened  Committee  by  any  view  I  could  present  of  a 
subject,  much  less  when  preceded  in  the  debate  by  that  gentleman.  Believe  me.  Sir, 
1  have  not  the  vanity  to  contest  with  him  the  palm  of  victory  in  the  fields  of  rhetoric, 
of  erudition,  or  of  wit.  No,  Sir.  As  to  them,  so  far  as  I  am  concerned,  I  leave  him 
the  undisputed  victor  of  the  field.  I  do  mean,  however,  in  the  course  of  my  remarks, 
to  question  many  of  his  facts,  or  rather  assumptions,  and  the  conclusions  he  has  ad- 
duced from  the  facts  assumed. 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  scruple  not  in  limine  to  avow  that  I  am  one  of  those  visionary 
politicians  who  advocate  General  Suffrage,  what  gentlemen  are  pleased  to  term  Uni- 
versal Suffrage.  And,  in  this  avowal,  I  believe  I  speak  the  sentiments  of  a  large 
majority  of  my  constituents.  What  I  mean  by  General  Suffrage,  is  the  extension  of 
that  inestimable  right  of  voting  in  the  election  of  all  public  functionaries,  made  eligi- 
ble by  the  people  to  all  white  freemen  of  the  age  of  twenty-one  years  and  upwards, 
who  are  citizens  by  birth  or  residence  for  a  certain  time,  and  who  have  discharged  all 
the  burthens  personal,  including  militia  duties,  and  pecuniary,  such  as  taxes,  imposed 
upon  them  by  the  laws  of  the  land,  and  excluding  such  as  are  rendered  infamous  by 
the  commission  of  crime.  In  other  V\^ords,  I  wish  to  establish  a  qualification  that  is 
personal,  and  respects  age  and  residence,  and  to  abolish  forever  the  freehold  qualifi- 
cation, which  to  me  has  always  appeared  an  invidious  and  anti-republican  test.  Like 
the  gentleman  from  Charlotte,  (Mr.  Randolph.)  I  did  not  come  here  to  vote  for  the 
disfranchisement  of  one  human  being  qualified  to  vote  under  the  old  Constitution, 
but  to  aid  in  the  enfranchisement  of  all  who  come  within  the  foregoing  description. 
I  came  here  to  contribute  my  feeble  aid  in  the  great  cause  of  non-freehold  emancipa- 
tion, but  not  to  imitate  an  example  set  us  elsewhere,  of  disfranchising  the  forty  shilling 
freeholders.  I  am,  therefore,  diametrically  opposed, to  the  amendment  proposed  by 
the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  as  I  am  to  all  amendments  that  go  to  restrict  the 
Right  of  Suffrage ;  and  upon  this  question,  I  will  meet  and  take  issue  with  the  friends 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


411 


of  freehold  qualification,  amongst  the  most  strenuous  of  whom,  the  gentleman  from 
Chesterfield,  has  proved  himself,  by  the  argument  which  he  yesterday  addressed  to 
this  Committee.  1  am  willing  to  rest  this  argument  upon  the  authority  of  reason 
and  common  sense,  the  Bill  of  Rights,  upon  tlie  doctrine  of  expediency,  or  upon  ex- 
perience, which,  visionary  as  1  am,  I  consider  more  valuable  than  volumes  of  specu- 
lation and  theory.  It  is  with  me  perfectly  indifferent,  whether  this  right  be  regarded 
as  a  natural,  a  social,  a  civil,  or  a  political  one  ;  the  conclusion  at  which  I  arrive,  sa- 
tisfactorily at  least  to  myself,  is  the  same. 

Before  I  proceed  with  my  argument,  I  must  trouble  the  Committee  with  a  few 
general  observations  suggested  by  the  course  of  this  debate.  I  cannot  forbear  to  ex- 
press my  surprise  and  regret  at  some  of  the  principles  avowed  by  gentlemen  on  this 
floor,  and  the  change  which  public  sentiment  seems  to  have  undergone  in  this  ancient 
Commonwealth.  In  the  opinion  of  some  gentlemen.  Government  has  no  principles. 
The  idea  of  patriotism  and  virtue  even  are  exploded,  and  self-love  and  self-interest 
are  the  only  springs  of  human  action.  The  rights  of  men  are  a  mere  chimera  of  dis- 
tempered imaginations,  and  in  this  debate  have  been  made  the  theme  of  ridicule  and 
derision,  rather  than  eulogy.  Against  this,  I  solemnly  protest.  There  was  a  time 
when  this  would  not  have  been  endured,  wlien  such  language  would  have  been  of- 
fensive to  republican  ears.  In  the  whole  progress  of  this  debate,  the  name  of  Thomas 
Jefferson,  the  great  Apostle  of  liberty,  has  never  once  been  invoked,  nor  has  one  ap- 
peal been  made  to  the  author  of  the  Rights  of  Man,  whose  innnortal  work,  in  the 
darkest  days  of  our  revolution,  served  as  a  political  decalogue  and  o])erated  as  a  talis- 
man to  lead  our  armies  to  victory.  There  was  a  time  when  it  was  honorable  to  pro- 
fess the  faith  of  these  great  fathers  of  the  church,  when  it  was  perilous  to  be  a  sceptic, 
when  the  name  of  Fox  was  venerated,  and  the  principles  of  Burke  abhorred — but  the 
sentiment  of  the  Latin  poet  quoted  in  this  debate  are  but  too  true,  "  tempora  mutan- 
tur,"  &c.  rendered  into  English, 

"  Men  change  with  manners,  manners  change  with  clime",  ,    .  •  . 

"  Tenets  with  books  and  principles  with  times." 

Then,  the  authority  of  the  sage  of  Monticello  would  have  stood  against  the  world  ; 
now,  there  are  "  none  so  poor  as  to  do  him  reverence."  Then,  was  Burke  regarded  as 
the  enemy  of  human  rights  and  the  firmest  defender  of  aristocracy  and  monarchy — 
but  now.  Burke,  Filmer,  and  Hobbes,  judging  from  their  arguments,  have  become  the 
text  books  of  our  statesmen. 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  spoken  of  political  faith  and  political  church — it  recalls  to 
my  mind  an  observation  I  have  often  made,  and  no  doubt  has  often  occurred  to  the 
mind  of  every  member  of  this  Committee — and  that  is  the  great  similarity  in  the 
conduct  of  the  votaries  of  religion  and  politics.  In  these  days,  you  find  no  atheist 
and  few  professed  deists,  but  how  many  practical  ones?  men  who,  whilst  they  yield 
a  sort  of  historical  belief  or  assent  to  divine  truths,  live  in  the  open  and  daily 
disregard  of  them,  and  utterly  refuse  all  practical  obedience.  They  cannot  impose 
upon  themselves  that  forbearance,  self-denial,  and  humiiit}^  enjoined  by  the  author  of 
that  religion — their  pride  and  their  manhood  revolt  at  that  text,  which  informs  them 
that  they  must  emulate  the  simplicity  of  infant  innocence  ere  they  can  enter  the 
kingdom  of  Heaven.  So,  Mr.  Chairman,  with  a  large  class  of  our  politicians,  who, 
whilst  they  have  not  the  bold  daring  to  deny  the  great  principles  of  our  political  faith, 
whilst  they  profess  to  keep  that  faith,  they  refuse  all  practical  obedience.  They  say 
the  theory  is  very  good — but  the  pride  of  intellect  and  of  wealth,  that  inherent  love 
of  distinction  in  man,  that  overwhelming  self-love,  and  that  pharasaical  spirit  which 
induces  frail  man  to  plume  himself  on  his  own  supposed  perfections,  and  to  congra- 
tulate himself  on  the  infirmities  of  his  fellow-man — revolt  at  that  political  equality 
taught  us  by  the  precepts  and  practice  of  otu-  forefathers.  I  like  not  their  theoretical 
republicanism.  I  care  not  for  professions  unless  the  precept  and  the  practice  corres- 
pond— as  I  will  judge  the  tree  by  its  fruit,  as  I  will  judge  the  christian  by  his  works, 
so  I  will  judge  the  professor  of  republicanism  by  his  practice. 

Let  us  now,  Mr.  Chairman,  return  to  the  subject  immediately  under  consideration— 
the  Right  of  Suffrage— -I  shall  bestow  but  little  time  upon  the  consideration  of  the 
question,  whether  it  is  a  natural,  social,  civil,  or  political  right — for  the  inquiry  is  rather 
curious  than  useful.  What  boots  it,  if  it  be  a  valuable  right,  whether  it  be  the  one  or 
the  other  ?  Nor  shall  I,  like  other  gentlemen  have  done,  resort  to  any  laborious  inquiry 
into  the  question,  whether  a  state  of  nature  ever  in  fact  existed?  I  leave  this  task 
where  those  gentlemen  have  left  it,  who  have  endeavoured  by  most  metaphysical  ar- 
guments to  prove  it  a  creature  of  abstraction.  This,  however,  I  will  say,  that  whe- 
ther it  ever  did  or  could  exist  or  not,  it  is  as  fair  and  necessary  to  suppose  its  exis- 
tence, and  to  assume  it  as  a  postulate  on  which  to  bottom  a  political  deduction,  as  for 
the  mathematician  to  suppose  the  existence  of  a  straight  line  on  a  point,  as  a  postulate 
on  which  to  found  his  demonstrations ;  nor  are  maxims  in  politics  less  useful  in  prac- 


412 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


tical  results  to  the  statesman,  than  are  the  axiomata  and  postulata  to  the  practical 
geometrician. 

What,  then,  is  the  Right  of  Suffrage?  Not  what  gentlemen  seem  to  understand  it, 
in  its  technical  and  confined  sense,  the  right  to  vote  for  public  functionaries  only,  in 
a  regular  organized  Government:  in  its  enlarged  sense,  it  is  the  right  by  which  man 
first  signifies  liis  will  to  become  a  member  of  Government  of  the  social  compact — the 
means  by  which  that  same  man  gives  expression  to  his  will  in  the  formation  of  that 
compact,  his  consent  to,  or  his  veto  upon,  measures  of  the  Government  in  legislation 
in  a  pure  democracy,  as  at  Athens,  and  in  others  of  the  ancient  republics,  and  some 
of  the  modern,  or  the  right  of  voting  for  public  functionaries  as  above  mentioned, 
in  a  Representative  Democracy  such  as  ours,  where  the  people  do  by  their  agents 
what  they  could  not  conveniently  or  even  possibly  do  in  person.  This  being  its  defi- 
nition then,  is  it  a  natural  right?  I  understand  natural  rights  to  mean  such  as  apper- 
tain to  man  in  a  state  of  nature  ;  this  appertained  to  him  in  a  state  of  nature,  for  it 
was  by  its  exercise  in  that  state  that  he  agreed  to  relinquish  the  natural  state  and  enter 
into  society — But,  say  the  gentlemen,  such  a  state  never  existed — the  consequence  is 
that  man  has' no  natural  rights,  if  my  definition  of  natural  rights  be  correct — but  the 
gentlemen  admit  lie  has  natural  rights,  life,  liberty,  the  pursuit  of  happiness,  and  the 
means  of  acquiring  and  enjoying  property.  Suffrage  is  the  substratum,  the  paramount 
right  upon  whicli  all  these  rest  for  protection,  preservation,  and  safety.  This  right, 
as  has  been  very  properly  said,  has  its  origin  in  every  human  being,  when  he  arrives 
at  the  age  of  discretion  :  it  is  inherent,  and  appertains  to  him  in  right  of  his  existence; 
his  person  is  the  title  deed,  unless  it  be  those  on  whom  the  same  natural  law  has  pro- 
nounced judgment  of  disability,  or  those  who  have  forfeited  it  by  crime  or  profligacy; 
and  one  other  class  in  this  country  who  must  be  the  victims  of  necessity,  that  can 
never  be  urged  as  an  example  for  disfranchising  the  white  man.  It  is  said  not  to  be 
a  natural  right,  because  we  curtail,  restrict,  and  confine  it,  as  before  said;  that  it  is 
forfeitable,  and  that  our  exceptions  include  more  than  our  rule.  Life,  liberty,  &c. 
are  curtailed,  restricted,  and  forfeitable,  and  subjected  to  exceptions,  yet  they  are  ad- 
mitted to  be  natural  rights.  Natural  rights  may  be  transplanted  into  the  social,  civil, 
and  political  state,  yet  they  are  still  natural  rights.  A  distinguished  statesman  has 
informed  us  that  most  of  our  civil  rights  have  natural  rights  to  rest  upon — nor  do  I 
think  I  should  be  far  wrong,  were  I  to  assert  that  all  our  important  rights,  whether 
civil,  social,  or  political,  are,  properly  speaking,  natural  rights.  The  exceptions,  we 
all  admit  to  the  universality  of  the  right,  by  which  the  gentlemen  endeavour  to  over- 
throw the  rule  itself,  I  shall  notice  a  little  farther  on.  But  suppose  it  be  not  a  natural 
right,  it  must  be  one  of  the  other  three,  and  I  care  not  which — why  should  a  majority 
of  freeholders  have  it  in  exclusion  of  a  minority  of  non-freeholders?  if  the  non-free- 
holders were  consulted,  and  upon  the  score  of  expediency  voluntarily  made  the  sur- 
render, there  would  be  no  cause  of  complaint  on  their  part — but  it  is  claimed  of  them 
as  a  right.  Have  they  ever  been  consulted  ?  No.  Do  you  purpose  to  consult  them  ? 
No.  Then  it  conies  to  this,  that  a  minority  of  one  class  have  taken  possession  to  the 
exclusion  of  a  majority,  not  hy  the  consent  of  that  majority,  but  by  consent  among 
themselves,  or  by  accident,  or  by  jure  divino  I  suppose,  and  now  claim  to  hold  the 
possession  against  the  right.  Have  not  the  majority  as  much  right  to  exclude  the 
minority  as  the  minority  the  majority  ?  Yea,  more.  But  we  claim  for  the  poor  no 
right  to  exclude  tlie  rich,  for  the  many  no  right  to  exclude  the  few  ;  we  claim  only 
equality  (which  is  equity,)  for  all,  and  deny  the  right  of  any  arbitrarily  to  exclude  the 
rest.  These  claims  and  these  denials,  I  stated  in  the  beginning,  to  be  founded  upon 
reason  and  common  sense,  upon  our  declaration  of  rights,  which  is  a  plain  and  simple 
deduction  of  principles  from  that  paramount  source,  rigiit  reason.^  upon  experience, 
and  expediency,  the  gentlemen's  own  grounds. 

By  the  way,  1  would  ask  if  it  be  a  question  of  expediency,  why  is  the  non-free- 
holder not  permitted  to  pass  upon  the  question  by  his  vote  ?  Why  will  you  deny  to 
him  an  opportunity  of  making  a  merit  of  necessity,  if  he  must  be  disfranchised  ?  Why 
is  it,  that  Virginia  has  presented  the  first  instance  of  a  Convention  called  to  form  a 
Constitution  without  consulting-  the  non-freeholder,  any  more  than  your  free  negroes, 
and  without  allowing  him  any  voice  in  the  election  of  delegates  that  compose  that 
Convention  ?  And  why  is  it,  that  you  purpose  to  carry  the  injustice  still  farther  by 
submitting  this  Constitution  to  the  ratification  of  freeholders  only  ?  If  expediency  be 
the  plea,  and  it  be  true,  and  has  been  true  for  more  than  half  a  century,  why  should 
gentlemen  now  labor  so  hard  to  prove  it  ?  Are  these  arguments  to  convince  the  free- 
holders they  ought  to  hold  on,  or  to  reconcile  the  proscribed  to  their  fate  ?  The  object, 
Sir,  is  to  indtice  the  freeholder  to  hold  on,  not  to  convince  or  to  reconcile  the  non- 
freeholder  ;  for  believe  me,  Sir,  that  were  impossible  ;  you  cannot  convince  a  freeman 
in  this  country  that  his  neighbour  has  more  political  rights  than  himself,  and  that  it  is 
expedient  for  him  to  be  guilty  of  committing  the  suicidal  folly  of  surrendering  up  all 
or  any  of  his  rights  into  the  hands  and  keeping  of  others — You  will  find  many  men 
willing  to  admit,  that  their  neighbours  are  incapable  of  exercising  the  rights  of  sove- 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


413 


reignty,  but  none  that  will  ascribe  that  incapacity  to  themselves — and  I  congratulate 
the  country  upon  the  march  of  liberal  principles,  that  the  freeholders  themselves  are 
prepared  to  surrender  these  pretensions.  This  is  a  freehold  Convention,  and  I  be- 
lieve that  a  laro-e  majority  of  the  constituent  body  have  decided  upon  the  abolition  of 
the  freehold  test — unless  the  worthy  gentlemen  who  have  undertaken  to  rejudge  their 
justice— should  succeed  in  their  attempt  to  induce  them  to  retrace  their  steps,  which 
God  forbid  !  Mr.  Chairman,  I  said  the  proposition  affirming  the  right  of  General  Suf- 
frage could  be  sustained  upon  the  principles  of  reason  and  common  sense.  Is  it  not 
sof  Does  it  not  command  the  assent  of  every  unprejudiced  and  unsophisticated  mind 
as  almost  a  self-evident  truth  ?  Is  it  not  the  affirmation  of  a  principle  written  by  the 
pen  of  nature  upon  the  heart  of  every  human  being,  whose  spirit  is  not  bowed  down 
by  oppression  and  political  degradation  ?  Who  doubts  the  proposition  when  it  is  an- 
nounced .=  Not  the  great  body  of  the  people,  in  whom  of  right  the  sovereignty  resides, 
whose  polar  star  is  right,  and  not  expediency.  None  but  those  statesmen  who  make 
human  rights  any  thing  or  nothing  to  suit  their  varying  ideas  of  expediency,  which 
has  been,"in  all  ages,  the  pretext  for  every  atrocity,  the  tyrant's  plea,  and  the  Jesuit's 
watchword.  But  why  need  I  detain  the  Committee  in  discussing  principles  derived 
from  reason  and  common  sense,  which,  more  than  half  a  century  ago,  were  deduced 
by  our  forefathers,  and  so  happily  expressed  in  our  Bill  of  Rights  ?  Here  is  a  text  that 
no  commentary  can  illustrate,  written  in  characters  so  legible,  that  he  who  runs  may 
read,  and  in  terms  so  simple,  so  intelligible,  and  so  consonant  to  the  love  of  equal 
liberty  implanted  in  our  hearts,  that  it  "  comes  home  to  the  business  and  bosoms  of 
men."  To  this  text  let  us  appeal  for  the  evidence  of  that  Right  of  Suffrage  for  which 
I  contend;  a  "  right  inestimable  to  freemen,  and  formidable  to  tyrants  only."  The 
first  article  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  reads  thus :  That  all  men  are  by  nature  equally 
free  and  independent,  and  have  certain  inherent  rights,  of  which,  when  they  enter 
into  a  state  of  society,  they  cannot  by  any  compact,  deprive  or  divest  their  posterity, 
namely,  the  enjoyment  of  life  and  liberty  with  the  means  of  acquiring,  and  pos- 
sessing property,  and  pursuing  and  obtaining  happiness  and  safety."  The  second 
declares,  "  that  all  power  is  vested  in,  and  consequently  derived  from,  the  people  :  that 
magistrates  are  their  trustees,  and  servants,  and  at  all  times  amenable  to  them."  The 
third  declares  the  end  and  object  of  Government  to  be,  "  the  common  benefit,  pro- 
tection and  security,  of  the  people,  nation,  or  community,"  and  affirms  the  right  of  a 
majority,  "  to  reform,  alter,  or  abolish  it,  in  such  manner,  as  shall  be  deemed  most 
conducive  to  the  public  weal."  The  sixth  affirms,  that  "  elections  ought  to  be  free, 
and  that  all  men,  having  sufficient  evidence  of  permanent,  common  interest  with, 
and  attachment  to,  the  community,  have  the  Right  of  Suffrage." 

Now,  Mr.  Chairman,  if  I  were  to  ask  a  plain  man,  who  were  entitled  to  vote  under 
these  provisions,  would  he  answer  land-owners  only,  or  such  persons  as  I  have  here- 
tofore described,  including  the  great  body  of  the  people,  a  majority  at  least.'  He 
certainly  would  not  answer  freeholders ;  there  would  be  no  doubt  in  his  mind,  unless 
indeed,  he  should  chance  to  take  the  advice  of  counsel,  who  like  Doctor  Doubty,  finds 
doubts  in  every  thing ;  then  perhaps  a  doubt  would  be  suggested  ;  but  to  understand 
the  Bill  of  Rights,  requires  not  the  aid  of  counsel,  or  statesman,  nor  of  wise,  nor 
learned  men:  it  is  intelligible  to  the  most  unintelligent  above  the  grade  of  nan  com- 
pos mentis ;  and  well  it  is,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  it  is  so.  If  only  the  wise  and  the 
learned  were  capable  of  comprehending  the  fundamental  rights  of  a  free  Government, 
such  a  Government  could  never  have  existed,  and  if  it  had,  would  necessarily  have 
been  of  short  duration.  But  when  we  quote  the  Bill  of  Rights  upon  our  opponents,  they 
do  not  flatly  deny  its  force  and  authority,  but  explain  it  away  by  the  Constitution. 
They  say  their  authors  are  the  same  men,  and  that  they  have  given  a  contemporaneous 
and  practical  exposition  in  the  one,  of  what  they  meant  by  the  other,  in  establishing 
Freehold  Suffrage  in  the  Constitution.  A  conclusive  answer  to  this  has  been  fur- 
nished by  the  arguments  of  more  than  one  gentleman,  that  has  preceded  me  in  the 
debate. 

The  circumstances  in  which  our  forefathers  were  placed,  and  under  which  they 
acted,  would  have  rendered  it  very  unwise  and  impolitic  to  carry  out  at  that  time  to 
their  full  results  all  the  principles  established  by  the  Bill  of  Rights.  They  had  not  the 
time,  had  it  been  wise  to  do  so.  They  acted  in  haste,  and  it  was  then  more  than  pro- 
blematical what  would  be  the  issue  of  the  struggle  they  had  just  embarked  in.  Why 
should  they  then  create  division  at  home,  by  disturbing  the  settled  order  of  things, 
when  harmony  was  so  essential  to  the  success  of  their  great  enterprise.'  They 
thought  it  wise  to  leave  the  perfection  of  their  work  for  more  auspicious  times ;  this 
we  are  told  by  the  immortal  Jefferson,  and  as  every  one  must  infer  from  the  instru- 
ment itself.  Is  this  not  proved  by  the  ordinance  of  the  Convention,  passed  only  three 
days  after  the  Constitution,  by  which  we  adopted  for  a  system  of  distributive  justice 
the  common  law  of  England  and  the  statutes  made  in  aid  thereof,  up  to  the  fourth 
year  of  James  the  1st  ?  By  this,  we  had  engrafted  upon  our  code  the  law  of  primoge- 
niture, of  entails  and  the  institutions  of  the  hierarchy.    Might  not  the  same  reasons 


414 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


now  assigned  for  adhering  to  the  freehold  test,  have  heen  urged  against  our  statute  of 
distributions,  the  statute  for  docking  entails,  and  the  act  of  religious  toleration,  the 
work  of  the  immortal  Jefferson  ?  To  the  same  causes,  that  we  assign  for  the  adop- 
tion of  the  freehold  Suffrage  in  part,  want  of  time  for  reflection  and  deliberation,  must 
be  ascribed  anotlier  imperfection  or  inconsistency  in  the  Constitution  ;  a  failure  to 
prescribe  any  qualification  whatever  for  your  Governor,  your  Judges,  your  Magis- 
trates, your  Militia  officers,  &c.  Now,  is  it  not  absurd  to  say,  that  before  a  man  can 
vote  for  his  neighbor,  to  represent  him  in  the  Assembly,  he  must  furnish  as  a  test  of 
his  independence  or  patriotism,  the  possession  of  his  fifty  acres?  yet  no  test  either  of 
property,  residence,  or  citizenship,  is  required  of  your  Governor;  for  aught  the  Con- 
stitution contains,  your  highest  Executive,  your  highest  Judicial,  and  your  highest 
Military  officers  may  be  aliens.  This  surely  proves  the  imperfect  character  of  the  in- 
strument, and  the  cause  of  that  imperfection,  as  before  assigned;  but  it  proves  also 
another  thing;  it  proves  the  absurdity  and  inutility  of  the  freehold  test.  If  you  can 
trust  your  Governor  to  execute  your  laws,  and  to  temper  them  by  the  high  preroga- 
tive of  mercy,  in  the  exercise  of  the  pardoning  power ;  if  you  can  trust  your  lives, 
liberty,  and  property  to  your  Judges ;  the  defence  of  your  homes  and  your  fire-sides 
to  Military  commanders  and  militia-men,  though  they  possess  not  one  acre  of  land, 
and  though  they  be  as  poor  as  Lazarus;  in  the  name  of  common  sense,  why  is  it  that 
you  cannot  trust  a  citizen  without  fifty  acres  of  land  to  go  to  the  polls,  and  vote  in  the 
election  of  public  functionaries  ? 

Mr!  Chairman,  it  has  been  said  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  and  by  other 
gentlemen,  that  we  derive  a  rule  from  the  law  of  nature  and  the  Bill  of  Rights,  in  re- 
lation to  Suffrage,  that  is  in  its  terms  universal,  and  that  we  ourselves  abandon  it,  and 
thereby  prove  its  fallacy:  the  females,  including  one  half  of  the  population,  are  dis- 
franchised at  one  fell  swoop;  minors,  convicts,  paupers,  slaves,  &c.,  which  together, 
compose  a  large  majority  of  every  community :  and  hence  they  argue,  that  as  our  rule, 
if  carried  out  to  its  extreme  results,  will  not  work  well,  it  must  be  erroneous.- 
For  this  argument,  I  have  a  short  answer  ;  it  will  not  do  to  test  any  rule  by  extreme 
cases.  I  presume  it  cannot  be  necessary  for  me  to  assign  a  reason  for  the  exceptions. 
In  this  the  gentleman  and  myself  would  doubtless  agree.  He  has  himself  very  hap- 
pily assigned  the  reason  for  excluding  females ;  and  could  assign  reasons  as  satisfac- 
tory for  the  other  exceptions.  In  the  foregoing  exceptions  we  are  all  agreed,  I  do  not 
understand  any  of  those  excepted  classes,  as  now  complaining,  nor  that  any  member  of 
the  Committee  wishes  to  include  them.  Why  then  lug  their  claims  into  this  debate  ; 
For  what  purpose  do  the  gentlemen  so  generously  step  forward  to  their  relief,  who 
seek  no  relief,  and  for  whom  none  is  intended  by  either  party?  I  can  tell  you.  Sir; 
the  gentlemen  seek  by  argument  to  elevate  their  rights,  in  order  to  disparage  ours.  I 
object  to  this  change  of  issue  ;  the  question  is  now  "between  freeholder  and  non-free- 
holder; to  which  contest  these  others  are  no  parties.  I  insist  upon  a  comparison  of 
our  titles  in  this  our  writ  of  right,  if  I  may  be  allowed  to  borrow  a  figure  from  that 
profession  of  which  I  am  an  humble  member.  In  this  form  of  action,  and  not  as  an 
ejectment,  neither  party  can  rely  upon  the  weakness  of  his  adversary's  title,  provided 
it  be  better  than  his  own ;  it  is  simply  as  before  stated,  a  comparison  of  titles;  this  I 
insist  to  be  the  law  of  this  case.  If  the  freeholder  and  non-freeholder  have  usurped 
the  rights  of  other  classes,  it  is  no  reason  in  the  mouth  of  the  freeholder,  against  an 
equal  division  of  the  spoil.  I  have  always  heard  that  honour  was  observed  among 
thieves  and  robbers.  I  have  thought  it  necessary  to  say  this  much,  to  sliew  that  the 
exclusion  of  females,  &c.  had  not  legitimately  the  least  connexion  with  this  question. 
If  it  be  a  good  argument,  carried  out  to  its  results,  it  would  justify  any  man  to  make  a 
slave  of  his  neighbour,  provided  that  neighbour  happened  to  be  the  owner  of  a  slave. 
The  argument  of  the  kidnapper  would  be  this,  to  his  enslaved  captive ;  "  you,  Sir, 
held  a  fellovz-creature  in  bondage,  because  you  thought  it  expedient  to  do  so.  I  have 
the  same  right  to  enslave  you,  and  I  think  it  expedient  to  do  so.  I  justify  myself  by 
your  own  example.  I  try  you  by  your  own  rule."  So  with  the  freeholders,  when 
they  are  challenged  to  shew  a  better  title  than  the  non-freeholder,  they  resort  to  the 
plea  of  expediency;  that  it  is  expedient  they  should  have  the  power,  and  that  as  fe- 
males, &c.,  are  excluded  by  mutual  consent,  ergo,  we  the  freeholders  will  exclude  the 
non-freeholders,  because  they  concurred  in  tlie  exclusion  of  females,  minors,  &c.  In 
what  does  the  case  just  supposed,  differ  from  this?  So  we  find  that  their  arguments 
will  not  abide  the  test  of  being  carried  to  their  extreme  results.  And  this  is  not  the 
only  argument  of  the  gentlemen,  obnoxious  to  the  same  criticism.  In  the  discussion 
of  the  question  of  Representation,  they  contended  for  the  mixed  basis :  we  replied,  that 
it  was  inadmissible,  that  it  was  anti-republican,  to  give  out  political  power,  in  propor- 
tion to  the  wealth  of  the  voter;  and  that  if  it  was  just,  to  give  one  district  weight  in 
proportion  to  its  wealth,  it  was  equally  so  to  divide  power  among  citizens  of  the  same 
county  in  the  same  ratio,  and  so  it  is  :  but  of  this  argument  they  complained  as  being 
unfair,  and  founded  on  extremes,  which  they  said  was  an  unfair  mode  of  treating  their 
proposition.    And  this  reminds  me  of  a  discrepancy  between  the  first  and  last  argu- 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


415 


ment  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield.  In  the  argument  of  the  question  of  Re- 
presentation, we  contended  that  the  fears  of  the  East  were  unfounded  ;  for,  that  all  the 
country  between  the  Alleghany  and  the  sea-shore,  was  slave-holding;  that  it  therefore 
had  a  coannon  interest,  and  would  always  have  the  power,  as  it  now  had ;  that  al- 
though the  Valley  had  not  as  many  slaves  as  the  East,  yet  taking  the  ratio  between  the 
tythables  and  slave-owners;  it  appeared  that  the  slave  property  was  more  generally  dif- 
fused there,  than  in  the  East ;  there  were  more  small  slave-holders  ;  and  that  the  owner 
of  one  slave  was  as  safe  a  depository  of  power,  as  the  owner  of  one  thousand  ;  inasmuch 
as  the  tax  on  that  one  would  be  as  onerous  to  him,  as  the  tax  on  the  one  thousand  would 
be  to  their  owner ;  and  would  make  liim  as  vigilant  to  guard  and  protect  that  right.  This 
argument,  then,  from  our  side  of  the  question  vras  \vholly  repudiated,  and  if  I  remem- 
ber rightly,  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield;  yet  on  yesterday  he  used  that  very 
identical  argument  to  prove  that  Col.  Allen's  poor  neighbour  owning  but  one  slave 
was  as  safe's,  political  partner  for  the  Colonel,  '^s  though  he  owned  one  thousand  slaves, 
and  assigned  the  very  identical  reasons  heretofore  assigned  by  the  friends  of  the  white 
basis.  But,  other  discrepancies  exist  in  the  arguments  which  could  not  have  escaped 
the  attention  of  this  Committee.  They  complain,  that  by  extending  Suffrage,  you 
augment  the  power  of  the  rich ;  a  singular  complaint  coming  from  the  friends  of  re- 
stricted Suffrage,  and  most  generally,  if  not  always,  used  by  the  rich  themselves. 
They  say  that  tenants  are  not  to  be  trusted,  because  they  will  vote  for  their  landlords, 
or  as  they  direct ;  the  poor  will  vote  for  the  rich,  or  as  they  direct ;  yet  these  very  same 
gentlemen  claim  power  in  Representation,  for  the  protection  of  the  property  of  the 
rich.  They  disguise  the  effect  of  the  claim  by  telling  us,  they  claim  it  not  for  indi- 
viduals, nor  counties,  but  for  sections  of  country;  and  that  the  effect  of  it  is,  to  ascribe 
power  to  the  poor,  in  right  of  their  vicinity  to  wealth,  for  its  protection ;  in  other  words, 
to  give  them  all  equal  portions  of  this  surplus  power  reserved  on  the  score  of  wealth, 
in  trust  for  the  benefit  of  their  rich  neighbours.  If  this  be  so,  why  should  the  gen- 
tleman from  Chesterfield  and  his  associates,  fear  the  subserviency  of  the  tenant  to  the 
landlord,  or  of  the  poor  to  the  rich  ?  If  they  hold  power  for  the  benefit  of  the  landlord 
and  the  rich,  they  must  either  yield  to  the  views  of  those  persons,  or  set  up  for  them- 
selves; if  they  set  up  for  themselves  and  disregard  the  wishes  of  the  property-holders, 
they  would  prove  unfaithful  trustees,  and  the  object  of  property  Representation  would 
be  defeated ;  if,  on  the  contrary,  they  should  prove  subservient,  then  only  could  the 
object  of  protection  be  accomplished  by  the  means  of  property  Representation ;  and 
the  gentleman  should,  therefore,  not  complain,  of  this  effect  of  universal  or  extended 
Suffrage.  But  again  :  the  gentleman,  on  yesterday,  objected  to  tenants  being  voters, 
because,  said  he,  the  landlord  held  them  by  their  very  heart-strings ;  could  distrain 
upon  themi,  sell  their  last  cow^,  and  even  the  cradle  on  which  their  infants  reposed. 
If  the  gentleman's  argument  be  a  good  one,  I  think  it  will  prove  too  much.  I  think 
it  will  prove  that  his  favourite  freehold  test,  is  not  quite  so  good  a  one  as  he  seems  to 
think,  unless  there  be  something  in  the  ownership  of  land,  that  by  enchantment  or 
magic  converts  frail  erring  man,  into  an  infallible  and  impeccable  being.  I  think  all 
the  tests,  except  those  of  age  and  residence,  will  be  found  too  imperfect  to  act  upon. 
A  moral  test  no  man  would  advocate,  neither  a  religious;  an  independence  test 
founded  on  the  possession  of  property  is  equally  Utopian,  equally  unjust,  and  equally 
fallacious  ;  no  man  contends  that  the  land  is  a  test  of  patriotism ;  and  even  if  it  were, 
should  it,  therefore,  be  established  as  the  test  of  SuiTrage.'  I  presume  there  are  as 
many  degrees  in  patriotism  as  there  are  men;  and  as  there  are  degrees  in  any  other 
virtue.  Every  man  is  more  or  less  a  patriot,  if  patriotism  means  love  of  country. 
A  man  that  loves  not  his  country,  is  a  monster;  such  a  one  as  I  have  never  yet  seen, 
though  such  have  lived,  and  live  to  infamy  on  the  page  of  history,  as  Benedict  Arnold, 
and  a  very  few  such.  The  love  of  country  is  formed  in  the  heart  of  man  in  child- 
hood, in  youth,  and  does  not,  as  seems  to  be  supposed,  grow  out  of  the  self-love  and 
self-interest  of  mature  years ;  it  springs  from  the  affections  and  the  associations  of 
childhood  and  youth,  before  the  sordid  and  selfish  cares  of  manhood  have  taken  pos- 
session of  the  heart.  Did  the  patriotism  of  Aristides,  of  Marcellus,  and  of  other  great 
names  that  might  be  mentioned,  rest  upon  the  freehold;  were  they  less  patriots  in 
exile,  than  the  ungrateful  men  that  banished  them.'    I  humbly  answer  no. 

Mr.  Chairman,  will  not  the  reasons  assigned  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield, 
for  the  exclusion  of  tenants,  operate  in  equal  degree  to  exclude  his  own  favorite  free- 
holders ?  will  it  not  furnish  a  good  reason  for  excluding  every  man  that  is  indebted, 
and  for  putting  the  Government  in  the  hands  of  the  creditor  class  of  the  community.? 
And  if  this  be  the  rule  of  exclusion,  how  many  of  the  freeholders,  think  you,  will  be 
excluded  ?  I  venture  to  affirm  at  least  one  half  or  three-fourths  :  is  there  not  that 
proportion  indebted  to  their  neighbours,  their  merchants,  to  the  Banks,  &c.,  by  ac- 
count, by  bond,  and  by  trust  deed,  or  otherwise  ;  and  will  not  a  debt  have  the  same 
influence  upon  a  freeholder,  as  upon  a  tenant  or  other  non-freeholders  ?  Indebtedness 
is,  in  substance,  the  reason  assigned  for  excluding  the  tenant;  and  can  it  be  a  matter 
of^  any  importance  what  sort  of  debt  it  be,  whether  it  be  for  rent  or  any  other  con- 


416 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


sideration ;  whether  it  be  collectable  by  distress- warrant,  or  by  fieri  facias,  whether 
the  cow  or  the  cradle  be  sold  by  the  constable,  the  sheriff,  or  a  trustee  or  marshal,  or 
whether  the  person  indebted  be  turned  out  of  possession  by  notice,  to  quit  if  a  tenant, 
or  by  a  habere  facias  possessionem,  or  scsinam  if  a  mortgaged  freeholder  ?  I,  therefore, 
conclude,  the  gentleman's  own  rule,  tried  by  his  own  arguments,  would  include  as 
much  too  many  voters  as  it  would  exclude,  improperly,  tried  by  our  arguments.  The 
gentleman's  argument  has  evidently  on  several  occasions  varied  with  itself.  This  has 
not  been  the  fault  of  the  gentleman's  ingenuity  or  ability,  but  the  fault  of  the  princi- 
ples he  advocates;  his  premises  are  wrong;  "  he  has  laboured  under  a  cause  too  light 
to  carry  him,  and  too  heavy  to  be  borne  by  him." 

The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  has  said  Universal  Suffrage  originated  in  Crom- 
well's army.  He  has  been  well  answered  by  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr. 
Cooke.)  Did  the  gentleman,  when  he  made  this  assertion,  forget  ■pure  democra- 
cies of  antiquity,  where  all  voted  and  legislated  in  propria  persona  ;  did  he  forget 
those  of  more  modern  date,  but  still  more  ancient  than  the  age  of  Cromwell  ?  I  mean 
the  Swiss  Cantons.  Their  Suffrage  was  more  universal  than  it  ever  was  before  or 
since :  every  male  of  the  age  of  fifteen  years  was  allowed  to  vote,  and  I  take  it  upon 
me  to  say,  that  no  evil  there  resulted  from  this  extended  Suftrage. 

The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  in  his  argument  in  favor  of  property  Representa- 
tion, warned  us  against  the  white  basis,  equal  Representation.  He  said  it  would  in- 
evitably lead  to  the  subversion  of  our  free  Government  and  to  despotism.  He  cited 
as  examples,  Greece,  Rome,  and  all  the  ancieiit  Republics,  and  held  up  to  us  the 
English  Government  as  an  example  in  many  respects  worthy  of  our  imitation.  Pie 
yesterday  predicted  that  the  same  effect  must  necessarily  result  from  Univer?ai  Suf- 
frage, but  instead  of  again  vouching  tlie  ancient  republics  to  sustain  him  in  this  pro- 
phecy, I  think  he  said  these  Republics  furnished  no  light  for  our  guidance,  but  that 
England  was  the  country  we  must  look  to  for  our  analogies  and  for  lessons  of  instruc- 
tion and  experience,  it  being  the  only  Representative  Government  bearing  a  real 
similitude  to  ours,  in  the  world,  or  that  ever  existed.  Then  all  free  Governments 
have  perished  by  these  formidable  foes  of  liberty  :  equal  Representation,  and  Univer- 
sal Suffrage.  How  do  the  gentlemen  account  for  the  fall  of  despotisms  they  too, 
have  perished,  and  free  Governments  established  on  their  ruins.  Did  Universal  Suf- 
frage, and  equal  Representation,  produce  these  effects  too  'i  if  so,  they  have  done  as 
much  good  as  evil,  and  deserve  not  such  utter  reprobation.  But  the  truth  is,  gentle- 
men have  been  misled ;  they  knew  only  the  historic  fact,  that  Governments  free  and 
despotic  have  perished,  have  shared  the  fate  of  every  thing  mortal,  have  obeyed  that 
great  law,  which  sooner,  or  later,  consigns  to  the  tomb,  man,  and  all  the  works  of 
man;  but  the  remote  and  hidden  causes,  that  produced  these  effects,  ever  have  been, 
and  ever  will  be,  mere  matter  of  speculation.  The  ancient  or  the  modern  Republics, 
are  surely  incapable  of  teaching  us  any  lessons  of  instruction,  or  of  furnishing  any 
beacons  for  our  warning ;  they  are  not  cases  in  point ;  there  is  no  resemblance  be- 
tween the  pure  democracies  of  antiquity,  and  the  Representative  democracies  of  the 
United  States.  Here  was  made  the  first  experiment  of  that  form  of  Government,  and 
ours  are  the  only  Representative  democracies  that  ever  existed.  Had  the  Republics 
of  Rome  and  Greece,  been  based  as  ours,  upon  the  Representative  principle,  their 
liberties  might  have  been  immortal ;  for,  if  that  attribute  can,  without  impiety,  be  as- 
cribed to  any  Government,  it  must  be  to  a  Government  like  ours.  I  fondly  trust  ours 
will  be  immortal.  For  this  Representative  principle  we  are  indebted  to  England,  and 
she  borrowed  it  from  the  woods  of  Germany;  but  in  borrowing  this  part  of  her  Go- 
vernment, we  discarded  her  monarchy,  and  her  aristocracy,  infusing  instead,  the  pure 
democratic  spirit  into  our  institutions.  Greece  and  Rome  have  furnished  us  models  of 
architecture,  statuary,  poetry,  and  painting,  but  not  of  Government.  It  would  be  as 
just  to  compare  their  beautiful  temples  to  our  steam-boats,  cotton-gins,  and  printing- 
presses,  as  to  compare  our  institutions  of  Government  with  theirs;  they  are  as 
dissimilar.  They,  therefore,  can  shed  no  light  on  our  deliberations,  much  less,  Mr. 
Chairman,  than  the  Cherokee  nation  of  Indians,  who  have  recently  established  a  free 
Constitution  of  Government,  and  laws.  Mr.  Chairman,  we  have  heard  many  pro- 
fessions of  patriotism,  and  love  of  country.  I  doubt  not  their  sincerity,  but  I  shall 
make  none  myself,  after  telling  you  that  the  man  who  loves  not  his  country,  is  a  mon- 
ster in  human  shape. 

Nor  shall  I,  Mr.  Chairman,  join  in  the  war  of  epithets,  so  much  complained  of  by 
the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  and  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania.  I  submit 
it  to  the  candour  of  this  Committee  to  decide,  who  cast  the  first  stone,  and  whether 
if  aristocrat  and  monarchist,  be  obnoxious  epithets  ;  whether  visionaries,  abstract  theo- 
rists, demagogues,  bidders  at  the  shrine  of  popularity,  slang,  &c.,  be  not  entitled  to 
the  same  appellation.  I  submit  it  to  the  candour  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield, 
whether  in  his  zeal,  he  has  not  been  betrayed  into  the  same  fardt,  which  he  has  im- 
puted to  our  side.  For  one  example  among  others,  that  might  be  enumerated,  of  in- 
temperate zeal  and  harsh  epithet,  we  had  asserted  the  claims  of  tire  sons  of  freeholders 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


417 


to  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  he  rephes,  that  if  they  are  permitted  to  vote,  the  consequence 
will  be,  that  the  son  will  vote  with,  or  differently  from  his  father — if  with  his  father, 
the  man  with  four  sons  will  have  five  votes — if  they  vote  differently  from  the  father, 
these  four  sons,  v^ill  be  four  scoundrels  and  puppies.  Surely  the  gentleman's  reflec- 
tions cannot  sanction  now  such  opinions ;  if  they  do,  I  would  ask  him  at  what  age 
may  a  son,  a  freeholder,  ever  vote  independently,  without  meriting  the  epithet  of 
scoundrel  and  puppy  ;  and  this,  Mr.  Chairman,  is  a  sentiment  expressed  by  one,  who 
has  so  strenuously  contended  for  the  independence  of  voters ! 

I  agree  with  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  in  the  eulogy  he  has  paid  to  the  free- 
holders of  the  State :  there  is  not  in  the  world  a  more  respectable  body  of  men.  I  have 
cause  to  respect,  and  love  them — it  was  their  partiality,  undeserved  I  am  sure  on  my 
part,  that  sent  me  here — I  am  sure  they  will  not  consider  me  as  disparaging  their 
claims,  when  I  say,  that  the  non-freeholders  are  a  respectable  body  of  men.  There 
are  virtuous  and  vicious  amongst  both  classes.  Indeed,  Mr.  Chairman,  we  have  been 
told  by  a  very  philosophic  poet,  and  I  think  truly, 

"  Virtuous  and  vicious  every  man  must  be, 
"  Few  in  the  extreme,  but  ali  in  the  degree." 

But  I  cannot  agree  with  the  member  from  Chesterfield  in  the  cGmpliment  he  has  paid 
to  the  intelligence  of  the  so  much  lauded  freeholders,  by  supposing  them  to  have  been 
cheated  out  of  their  votes  in  calling  this  Convention,  or  in  the  elections  to  this  body, 
or  cheated  into  sentiments  so  hostile  to  their  true  interests.  After  attributing  to  them 
the  suicidal  folly  of  callino;  this  Convention,  not  in  terms,  but  b};-  the  tenor  of  all  his 
arguments,  it  was  indeed  fhe  most  cliaritable  supposition,  as  to  them,  to  suppose  them 
to  have  been  misguided.  The  people  in  my  district,  I  venture  to  say,  were  not  cheated  ; 
I  cannot  say  how  it  was  in  others. 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  cannot  see  what  the  ballot  boxes  (or  Pandora's,  if  it  better  please 
the  gentleman),  and  the  constable's  advertisement  sent  by  some  anonymous  corres- 
pondent from  JNIaryland,  have  to  do  with  the  subject  of  this  debate.  The  gentleman 
very  confidently  expresses  his  preference  for  the  viva  voce  election,  reprobates  the 
mode  of  voting  by  ballot,  then  gratuitously  assumes  this  latter  mode  to  be  the  neces- 
sary consequence  of  extended  Suffrage,  and  by  this  assuniption  he  readily  justifies 
his  reprobation  of  the  cause  of  this  consequence.  I  agree  with  him  in  preferrino-  the 
viva  voce  mode  of  voting,  but  I  am  not  prepared  so  confidentl}-,  as  he  seems  to  be,  to 
pronounce  an  anathema  upon  the  other.  We  should,  at  least,  pause  and  reflect  well 
before  we  condemn  a  practice  adopted  by  many  of  our  sister  republics,  and,  so  far  as 
I  am  informed  to  the  contrary,  ^vith  good  effect;  a  practice,  the  adoption  of  which  is 
now  advocated  by  some  of  the  Whigs  of  England,  as  the  very  best  guaranty  of  inde- 
pendence in  voters — but  I  do  not  mean  to  argue  this  question  at  this  time ;  it  would 
be  travelling  out  of  the  record — all  I  intended  to  say  was,  that  there  was  no  affinity 
between  the  question  of  the  extension  of  Suffrage  and  the  mode  of  voting. 

And  as  little,  as  it  seems  to  me.  is  theie  betvveen  the  Maryland  advertisement  and 
this  question:  the  gentleman  did  not  even  attempt  to  shev/  how  the  supposed  cause 
produced  the  supposed  effect.  If  Universal  Suffrage  produced  the  passage  of  the  law, 
that  subjected  land,  however  large  the  tract,  to  the  payment  of  its  owner's  debts,  how- 
ever small,  it  is  my  humble  opinion,  an  eulogy  on  tJniv(a'sal  Suf&age.  It  proves  that 
the  voters,  instead  of  being  lawless  free-booters,  are  lovers  of  justice.  Mr.  Chairman, 
may  it  not  be  that  this  correspondent  is  the  debtor  and  the  owner  of  the  land,  and 
that  it  is  because  he  is  made  to  feel  the  operation  of  a  wholesome  law,  that  he  feels 
no  very  good  opinion  of  it.'  According  to  Hudibras, 

"  A  thief  ne'er  felt  the  halter  draw, 
"  With  good  opinion  of  the  law." 

But  we  are  told,  if  the  Right  of  Suffrage  be  extended,  the  rights  of  property  will  be 
invaded  :  we  shall  have  an  agrarian  law,  tumults,  confusion,  civil  discord,  and  finally 
despotism.  The  only  answer  I  have  to  make  to  arguments  so  derogatory  to  the  dig- 
nity of  human  nature  in  these  United  States,  is,  that  twenty-two  out  of  twenty-four 
sister  Republics,  many  of  them  situated  precisely  as  we  are  in  relation  to  slave  popula- 
tion, have  this  Free  Suffrage,  called  by  the  gentleman  Universal,  and  none  of  these 
results  have  happened,  or  are  likely  to  happen  there,  so  far  as  we  are  informed.  Vir- 
ginia and  North  Carolina  are  the  only  States  that  adhere  to  the  freehold  test,  and  the 
latter  only  in  one  branch  of  the  Legislature.  What  length  of  time  the  gentleman  re- 
quires for  the  fulfilment  of  his  luorubrious  prophecies,  he  has  not  informed  us.  Believe 
me.  Sir,  it  is  all  speculation  and  theory,  against  the  rights  of  man.  and  we  have  this 
advantage,  if  we  are  theorists  and  speculators,  we  speculate  and  theorise  in  favour  of 
equal  rights,  and  our  theories  and  vagaries  have  been  reduced  to  successful  operation. 
They  have  been  called  on,  and  cannot  shew  one  case  in  point:  on  the  contrary,  we 

53 


418 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTIOK* 


can  triumphantly  point  to  the  example  of  twenty-two  Republics,  our  sisters  in  this 
great  confiederacy  of  States.  I  have  now  a  gentleman  in  my  eye,  who  has  informed 
me,  that  he  owns  a  large  real  estate  in  Ohio,  and  that  no  where  are  the  rights  of  pro- 
perty more  secure.  His  language  was,  that  a  twig  could  not  be  cut  from  his  pre- 
mises, without  exposing  the  transgressor  to  reparation  in  damages."  During  the  ses- 
sion of  this  Convention,  I  have  conversed  with  a  distinguished  functionary  from  the 
State  of  Mississippi,  a  native  of  Virginia,  and  he  informs  me,  that  in  that  State,  the 
Legislature  is  in  the  hands  of  the  non-property  holder ;  and  that  so  far  from  their 
having  any  oppressive  taxation  of  property,  their  civil  list  is  actually  defrayed  by  a 
capitation  or  poll-tax.  During  the  past  summer,  I  was  informed  by  a  citizen  of  Ala- 
bama, that  a  part  of  that  State,  which  owned  least  property  and  fewest  slaves,  wielded 
the  power  of  Legislation — situated  as  to  slave  property,  as  the  East  of  this  State  is  to 
the  West,  and  yet  that  no  abuse  had  intervened,  and  that  none  was  apprehended. 
Let  us  turn  our  eyes  to  the  States  North,  West,  East  and  South  of  us,  and  we  look  in 
vain  for  any  of  the  evils  pourtrayed  in  such  glowing  colours  by  the  gentlemen  on  the 
other  side  of  this  question.  Liberty  and  law,  equality  and  justice,  peace,  prosperity 
and  good  order,  reign  throughout  their  borders  ;  with  those  few  exceptions  of  popular 
excitement,  incident  to,  and  inseparable  from,  all  free  Governments  under  the  sun. 
Mr.  Chairman,  the  little  temporary  excesses  of  a  free  people  must  be  borne  :  it  is  the 
evil  inseparable  from  the  good  ;  there  is  no  human  good  without  its  alloy  of  evil.  I 
prefer  even  the  hurricanes  and  the  tempests  of  liberty,  to  the  calm  of  despotism. 

And  is  Virginia  less  fit  for  free  Government  than  her  sister  States .''  Would  the 
same  causes  produce  different  effects  here?  In  my  poor  judgment,  we  are  better 
situated  to  adopt  the  principle  of  extended  Suffrage  than  the  free  States,  according  to 
the  gentlemen's  own  theories.  The  presence  of  upwards  of  four  hundred  thousand 
slaves  entitled  to  no  political  power,  and  excluding  perhaps  as  many  of  that  class  de- 
nominated hy  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  as  peasantry,  at  once  diminishes  the 
number  of  dangerous  voters  by  that  amount,  dangerous  in  the  estimation  of  others, 
not  in  mine.  In  addition  to  this,  we  have  no  overgrown  cities — no  overgrown  manu- 
factory establishments.  With  a  population  proverbial  for  their  attachme^it  to  law,  or- 
der, and  public  tranquillity,  I  boldly  say,  if  any  State  in  this  Union  can  adopt  Free 
Suffrage  with  safety,  Virginia  is  that  State.  The  extension  of  the  right  does  not  en- 
danger the  tranquillity  of  election — as  the  experience  of  the  Eastern  States  has  con- 
clusively proven — and  if  we  adopt  it,  and  pursue  the  policy  now  in  progress,  of  estab- 
lishing precinct  or  separate  elections,  we  disarm  these  primary  assemblies  of  any  dan- 
gerous tendencies  to  excess,  which  they  may  be  supposed  to  have. 

Have  not  the  non-freeholders  of  the  United  States,  shewn  their  capacity  for  self- 
government  in  the  election  of  members  of  Congress  ?  and  your  Presidents,  from  Wash- 
ington down  to  the  present  incumbent.?  I  say  the  present  incumbent,  because  what- 
ever be  my  opinions  of  him,  he  was  the  choice  of  Virginia.  Are  the  delegations  in 
Congress  from  other  States  less  talented  and  respected  than  our  own.?  I  mean  no 
disparagement,  when  I  say  no.  And  can  a  non-freeholder  vote  discreetly  for  a  Fede- 
ral and  not  for  a  State  officer?  Look  to  the  New  York  Convention  of  1821,  the  first 
fruits  of  this  General  Suffrage,  which  numbered  among  its  members,  Kent,  Spencer, 
Lansing,  Rufus  King,  Sanford.  and  many  others,  though  less  known  to  fame,  not  the 
less  entitled  to  distinction.  Here  we  have  seen  a  body  of  men  elected  by  General 
Suffrage  ;  a  comparison  with  which,  in  my  humble  opinion,  whatever  be  the  opinions 
of  others  to  the  contrary,  would  not  disparage  this  freehold  Convention  of  ours, 
talented  as  I  am  willing  to  admit  it  to  be.  Look  too,  to  the  Bench,  the  Bar,  the  Le- 
gislative Halls  of  New  York :  you  behold  a  blaze  of  talents,  a  constellation  of  great 
men,  unsurpassed  by  those  of  any  other  State. 

Mr.  Chairman,  the  non-freeholders  are  told  they  are  contending  for  a  shadow — a 
right,  if  extended  to  them,  would  be  of  no  great  importance — that  under  the  old  state 
of  things,  every  thin^  has  gone  on  well — we  have  lived  happily,  and  that  their  com- 
plaints are  unfounded,  and  their  grievances  imaginary.  We  are  told,  the  owners  of 
the  country  should  govern  the  country  :  that  the  freeholders  are  the  safest  deposito- 
ries of  power ;  that  they  hold  it  in  their  trust  for  the  whole  community,  and  that  through 
them  all  are  virtually  represented.  My  reply  to  this  is,  that  a  man  who  has  no  voice 
in  the  Government,  holds  his  rights  by  the  sufferance  of  him  who  has ;  and  he  that 
thus  holds  his  liberty  at  the  will  of  another,  is  already  half  a  slave.  Because  the  non- 
freeholders  have  not  been  hung  up  without  a  Judge  or  Jury- — because  they  have  been 
allowed  their  civil  rights,  the  gentlemen  say  they  have  not  been  injured.  Free  ne- 
groes are  allowed  all  their  civil  rights ;  the  non-freeholders  no  more  :  and  here  I  would 
recall  to  mind  a  very  proper  distinction  heretofore  taken  by  the  gentleman  from 
Orange,  (Mr.  Barbour,)  between  civil  and  pohtical  rights.  Civil  rights  may  be,  oflen 
are,  and  have  been,  respected  and  secure  under  the  veriest  despotism  :  and  he  very 
properly  illustrated  his  remark  by  a  reference  to  the  reign  of  Augustus,  and  many  of 
his  successors.  1  consider  the  denial  to  any  man  of  any  portion  of  his  political  rights, 
or  giving  to  his  neighbour  more  than  his  own,  an  injury  of  the  gravest  character.  If 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


419 


the  right  be  ideal,  existing  only  in  the  fancy  of  men,  equally  so  are  many  of  the  pos- 
sessions men  hold  dearest — liberty  itself,  reputation,  fair  fame,  all  dearer  than  life,  and 
the  invasion  of  which  inflicts  the  deepest  wound  on  the  peace  and  happiness  of  their 
possessors.  But  I  have  shewn  sufiicient  injury  done  to  the  non-freeholders,  by  simply 
announcing,  that  a  Convention  has  been  called  and  members  delegated  to  it,  without 
consulting  them  any  more  tlian  if  they  were  slaves  or  free  negroes — an  example,  so 
far  as  I  am  informed,  never  before  set  in  these  United  States. 

Mr.  Chairman,  in  answering  the  arguments  of  gentlemen,  I  have,  in  some  mea- 
sure, anticipated  the  grounds  of  expediency  and  experience,  to  which  I  promised  to 
appeal  in  the  conmiencement  of  my  remarks  :  1  intended,  however,  to  have  carried 
out  my  remarks  on  these  two  branches  of  the  subject,  for  the  purpose  of  supplying 
such  views  as  I  had  not  presented  in  answering  the  arguments  of  gentlemen,  who  had 
appealed  to  expediency  and  experience.  I  had  intended  to  endeavor  to  shew  the  be- 
neficent effects  of  extending  Suffrage,  by  allaying  discord  and  discontent,  restoring 
harmony  and  good  feeling  among  all  classes  and  conditions.  I  intended  to  shew  its 
moral  and  political  tendencies,  and  amongst  these  its  direct  influence  and  operation — 
to  elevate  the  character  of  the  enfranchised;  but  finding  my  strength  exhausted,  and 
my  voice  faihng,  I  will  detain  the  Committee  with  but  a  few  more  remarks  in  con- 
clusion. 

We  are  told  there  is  a  great  crisis  in  our  aifairs,  big  with  danger  to  the  peace,  safety 
and  integrity  of  the  State.  I  doubt  not  the  sincerity  nor  the  moral  courage  of  those 
gentlemen,  who  have  admonished  us  of  these  dangers;  but.  3Ir.  Chairman,  I  have  no 
faith  in  these  predictions — I  am  not  perturbed  by  the  alarms  that  have  been  sounded : 
the  dangers  so  much  dreaded  by  gentlemen,  are  the  creatures  of  their  own  imagina- 
tions :  that  bloody  sword  which  has  been  brandished  over  our  heads  by  the  gentleman 
from  Hanover,  reeking  with  the  best  blood  of  the  land,  has  inspired  no  terror,  in  my 
mind ;  because  I  trust  that  his  sword,  and  that  of  every  true  Virginian,  like  the  noble 
Roman's  sword,  for  their  friends  have  only  leaden  points,"  and  that  they  will  never 
be  formidable  except  to  the  enemies  of  the  Commonwealth.  I  trust  that  ere  the  time 
shall  arrive  to  unsheathe  a  sword  to  shed  each  other's  blood,  consideration  will,  like 
an  angel,  come  to  save  us  from  the  obloquy."  Js  it  possible  that  Virginia,  of  all  the 
States  in  this  Union,  the  birth-place  of  sons  whose  sires  were  foremost  in  the  revolu- 
tionary struggle,  has  not  the  wisdom  and  the  patriotism  to  reform  her  fundamental 
law  without  violent  revolution  and  blood-shed — to  perform  quietly,  and  without  tu- 
mult, an  act  of  sovereignty,  which  even  the  Cherokee  Indians  can  perform  without 
violence ;  for,  they  lately  established  for  themselves  a  Constitution  for  their  govern- 
ment.' For  one  moment  to  suppose  separation,  disunion,  or  dismemberment  possible, 
is  to  pronounce  a  libel  upon  the  wisdom  and  the  patriotism  of  our  constituents.  Be- 
lieve me.  Sir,  it  would  be  bej'ond  our  power  to  produce  such  a  result,  were  each  of  us 
to  return  to  our  constituents,  and  exert  our  utmost  powers  to  bring  about  so  calamitous 
a  consummation.  In  vain  would  be  all  our  puii}^  efforts  to  agitate  into  a  tempest  the 
great  body  of  the  people.  They  would  remain,  in  despite  of  all  our  efforts,  as  tran- 
quil as  the  great  ocean,  when  it  is  unrufiled  by  the  storm — that  ocean,  whose  awful 
sublimity,  the  people  in  their  sovereign  power  and  grandeur,  so  much  resemble. 

Let  us,  then,  banish  from  our  minds,  and  from  our  deliberations,  all  intemperate 
feelings.  Let  us  practice  towards  each  other  the  republican  virtues  of  temperance, 
moderation  and  forbearance,  maintaining  our  opinions  always  with  firmness,  but  with 
deference  for  the  opinions  of  others — feeling  the  fortiter  in  re,  but  practising  the  sua- 
xiter  in  modo — eschewing  violence,  and  cultivating  harmony  and  good  feeling — for, 
depend  upon  it,  that  as  much  wisdom  and  worth  as  I  admit  to  be  concentered  in  this 
body,  there  is  yet  more  in  the  community  we  represent.  The  eyes  and  the  thoughts 
of  that  community  are  now  directed  towards  this  ancient  metropolis,  the  seat  of  our 
deliberations — a  community,  in  whom  dwells  an  abiding  sense  of  justice,  and  a  deep- 
rooted  loyalty  to  social  order  and  law:  and  that  community  will  not  hold  him  guiltless 
who  throws  the  first  firebrand  into  the  fair  temple  of  our  political  liberty,  and  saps  the 
deep  foundations  of  our  ancient  and  beloved  Commonwealth. 

Mr.  Thompson  having  resumed  his  seat, 

Mr.  Doddridge  took  the  floor,  and  addressed  the  Committee  as  follows: 
Mr.  Chairman. — I  am  forced  to  meet  the  question  of  Suffrage  at  a  period  of  our  dis- 
cussions when  I  did  not  expect  it.  With  a  very  few  exceptions,  the  friends  of  reform 
had  determined  to  adjust  the  basis  of  Representation  in  both  branches  of  the  General 
Assembly  first.  In  this  they  have  met  with  difficulties  which  the}'  have  been  unable 
to  overcome.  My  own  opinion  was,  that  this  basis  in  both  Houses  ought  to  be  estab- 
lished by  the  same  resolution,  and  such  was  my  first  proposition.  That  proposition 
was  divided  at  the  suggestion  of  those  who  thought  otherwise,  to  enable  them  to  sus- 
tain the  white  basis  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  some  other  in  the  Senate.  A  dif- 
ferent basis  in  the  Senate  was  claimed  on  two  grounds  :  first,  to  protect  the  owners 
of  slaves  fi*om  oppressive  taxation  on  that  species  of  property,  and  secondly,  to  pre- 
serve the  title  from  being  affected  by  any  species  of  Legislation.    The  present  views 


420 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


of  a  majority  are  sufticiently  known,  but  it  is  uncertain  whether  the  Senate  will  not 
be  placed  on  a  worse  ground  than  this  Convention  found  the  House  of  Delegates. 
Should  that  be  the  case,  the  greatest  end  for  which  the  people  called  us  together  will 
have  failed,  and  in  this  state  of  things  the  question  of  Suffrage  is  pressed,  and  we 
are  impelled,  while  considering  it,  to  act,  in  some  degree,  as  if  the  very  worst  that 
can  happen  to  the  people  in  adjusting  representation,  had  actually  happened.  Thus 
situated.  Universal  Sulfrage  would  be  rendered  acceptable  to  thousands,  who  never 
dreamed  of  its  introduction.  The  proposition  of  my  colleague,  from  Monongalia,  has 
not  yet  been  fully  tested,  because  of  the  existing  uncertainty  of  the  real  ground  on 
which  we  stand.  Should  a  slave,  with  a  white,  Representation  be  introduced  into 
the  Senate  ;  or  an  exclusive  Representation  of  taxation,  or  of  property,  there  will  be 
a  necessity  to  array  all  that  the  denounced  King  Numbers,  can  command.  The 
amendment  of  my  colleague  fell  but  little  short  of  Universal  Suffrage.  It  required 
the  payment  of  taxes  if  assessed,  but  did  not  require  their  assessment.  It  excluded 
paupers,  soldiers,  persons  adjudged  infamous,  and  all  such  as  had  not  resided  a  suffi- 
cient time  to  furnish  evidence  of  permanent  attachment  to  the  community.  The  un- 
certainty of  the  ratio,  both  acquired  and  lost  friends  to  Suffrage,  on  the  rejection  of 
my  colleague's  amendment.  The  rejection  of  the  resolutions  of  my  colleague  from 
Brooke,  followed  as  a  matter  of  course.  They  did  not,  subtantially,  differ  from  my 
other  colleague's  amendment,  except  in  the  facilities  proposed  for  a  foreigner  to  ac- 
quire Suffrage  without  an  oath,  and  the  exclusion  of  a  native  until  twenty-two  years 
of  age.  In  these  particulars,  I  would  have  proposed  a  small  alteration  to  remove,  per- 
haps, but  a  seeming  objection ;  but  that  the  fate  of  these  resolutions  had  already  been 
decided,  and  that  decision,  according  to  known  rules,  governing  a  Committee  of  the 
Whole,  as  well  as  the  House,  stands  as  their  judgment,  until  reversed  in  the  House. 
So  far  as  the  propositions  of  my  other  colleague  from  Monongalia,  have  relation  to 
Suffrage,  they  are  in  like  manner  disposed  of.  That  in  relation  to  education  is,  in- 
deed, untouched.  That  most  important  subject  may  find  another  place  in  our  delibe- 
rations, or  if  not,  it  will  remain  a  subject  of  legislation,  and  may  form  an  important 
adjunct  to  the  Literary  Fund. 

The  question  of  extending  Suffrage  in  the  manner  proposed  by  all  my  colleagues^ 
although  at  rest  in  this  Committee,  will  remain  open  for  decision  in  the  House,  where 
I  hope  it  will  be  renewed  by  them,  or  some  of  them,  when  e\evj  vole  may  be  spread 
before  our  constituents,  and  the  world. 

I  will,  in  my  turn,  offer  an  amendment,  presenting  Suffrage  in  another  form — not 
quite  so  extended,  yet  falling  but  little  short  of  the  plans  already  discussed.  My  plan 
is  to  leave  the  present  right  untouched,  and  to  extend  it  to  all  those,  whether  free- 
holders or  not,  to  whom  Government  looks  for  support,  whether  by  revenue  taxes  or 
county  levies  ;  by  impositions  payable  in  money  or  to  be  discharged  by  labour.  To  go 
farther  than  this,  vv^ould  be  to  trench  on  the  decisions  of  the  Committee ;  and  to  stop 
short  of  it,  v/ould  be  disobedience  to  the  well  known  wishes  of  my  constituents. 

Mr.  Chairman:  In  support  of  the  principles  asserted  by  the  amendment  now  under 
consideration,  I  need  not  detain  the  Committee  long.  My  constituents  have  been  so 
fully  heard,  and  their  rights  and  interests  so  ably  defended  by  each  of  my  colleagues, 
that  I  have,  indeed,  little  more  to  do,  than  to  implore  the  Committee,  to  bear  in  their 
recollections,  the  able,  a,nd  as  I  think,  unanswerable,  arguments  of  each  of  them,  v;hile 
I  endeavour,  briefly  to  arrange  and  pass  in  review  the  principal  topics  touched  in  this 
debate,  as  w^ell  by  them  as  others.  The  decisions  of  the  Committee  on  the  resolutions 
of  my  colleagues,  have  settled  the  principle,  so  far  as  the  Committee  are  concerned, 
that  Suffrage  shall  not  be  extended  to  those  not  taxed,  and  they  have  settled  nothing 
further.  My  efibrt  now,  is  to  extend  it  to  all  such  as  are  taxed.  This  I  know,  at 
least,  to  be  conformable  to  the  wish  of  the  whole  body  of  my  constituents.  My  col- 
leagues are  equally  certain  that  the  public  wish  is  to  go  farther.  Having  been  very 
generally  from  home  the  last  five  years,  my  information  is  less  exact  than  theirs,  but 
I  have  no  doubt  they  are  correct,  and  therefore  voted  with  them  for  the  extension 
they  desired. 

I  admit,  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  offers  one  valuable  ex- 
tension of  Suffrage  :  I  mean  that  which  embraces  freeholders  now  excluded.  These 
are  the  holders  of  less  than  twenty -five  acres  of  land,  and  of  lots  in  towns  without 
dwelling  houses,  where  the  value  shall  come  up  to  the  amount  required.  These 
freeholders  are  numerous,  and  the  estates  of  many  of  them  worth  more  than  sufficient 
to  purchase  an  hundred  freeholds  at  the  prices  at  which  Suffrage  has  been  estimated 
in  this  debate.  The  other  class  embraced  by  his  proposition,  are  termors,  in  a  legal 
sense  only.  They  are  virtually  freeholders,  and  are  so  considered  by  the  gentleman 
himself  Leases  of  the  description  proposed  to  be  provided  for,  are  unknown  in  the 
West,  and  perhaps,  are  only  to  be  found  in  or  near  Norfolk,  so  that  the  effects  of  the 
provision  in  their  favor  will  be  both  hmited  and  local.  If  Suffrage  is  not  to  be  ex- 
tended farther  than  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  proposes,  this  Convention  might 
as  well  not  have  been  called,  if  its  principal  object  was,  what  the  gentleman  from 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


421 


Charlotte  (Mr.  Randolph)  affirms  it  to  have  been — the  extension  of  the  Rigid  of  Suf- 
frage. The  extension  of  Suffi-age,  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  is 
nof  that  which  has  been  called  for  by  public  opinion.  It  is  not  such  an  extension  of 
that  privilege  as  -svas  claimed  from  1606  to  the  present  time,  nor  is  it  that  for  wliich  a 
majority  of~freeholders  voted  in  when  they  spoke  this  body  into  existence.  A 

brief  review  of  the  Learislative  proceedings  which  led  to  the  present  Convention, 
will  not  only  prove  the  objects  for  which  we  have  been  convened,  but  that  their 
publicitv  has  been  such  as  to  render  it  almost  incredible  that  in  calling  tliis  Conven- 
tion any  portion  of  freeholders  who  voted  for  it  could  have  been  cheated  out  of  their 
votes,  as  has  been  allecred,  or  could  have  been  ignorant  of  the  extent  to  which  it  would 
be  attempted  to  extend  the  Right  of  Suffrage. 

Before  entering  into  tiiis  review,  I  wish  to  get  rid  of  a  difficulty  which  has  been 
constantly  thrown  in  the  way  of  the  present  debate.  That  difficulty  arises  from  the 
sensitiveness  of  gentlemen  at  the  use  of  the  terms  aristocracy  and  oligarchy.  By  the 
use  of  these  terms,  I  have  never  meant  an  application  of  them  to  the  hearts,  feelings, 
or  characters  of  those  opposed  to  me  ;  but  to  the  tendency  and  effects  of  the  princi- 
ples they  maintain.  I  have  never  meant  them  as  personal,  or  as  offensive  or  abusive 
epithets.  The  term  aristocrat  has  been  applied  to  me  nearly  all  my  life,  and  I  never 
took  personal  offence,  because,  I  knew  none  was  intended  by  those  who  used  it. 
They  supposed  my  political  principles  to  be  aristocratical,  in  which  I  knew  they 
were  honestly  mistaken.  The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  says,  he  has  so  far  for- 
gotten his  Greek  as  not  to  remember  the  meanmg  of  these  terms  in  that  language, 
and  he  only  knows  their  meaning  in  good  old  English,  and  not  the  modern  dialect  of 
that  tongue.  1  will,  in  that  dialect,  explain  my  meaning  of  both  terms.  They  are 
in  fact  synonymous.  Each  of  these  terms  is  descriptive  of  a  Government  whose 
powers  are  vested  in  a  minority.  A  Government  thus  described,  is  contradistin- 
guished from  a  monarchy,  or  Government  in  the  hands  of  one  man,  and  from  a  pure 
democracy,  or  Government  in  the  hands  of  every  man.  By  Government  in  the 
hands  of  a  few,  we  do  not  mean  a  smaJl  select  few.  Few  and  many,  as  tlie  gentle- 
man from  Chesterfield  says,  are  relative  terms.  In  their  just  sense  they  are  equiva- 
lent with  the  terms  majority  and  minority.  In  this  sense  I  use  them.  A  Govern- 
ment to  be  an  aristocracy  or  oligarchy,  is  not  necessarily  one  in  which  power  is  ac- 
quired by  descent  or  by  patent.  Tliis  is  the  sense  in  which  I  use  the  terms,  and  if  I 
am  correct,  to  constitute  a  statesman  an  aristocrat  or  an  oligarch,  it  is  only  necessary 
that  he  sliould  be  one  of  those  holding  and  exercising  the  powers  of  the  few  over  the 
many — of  the  minority  over  the  majority.  And  I  maintain,  and  before  I  sit  down 
will  attempt  to  prove,  that  our  opponents  are  not  only  sustaining  in  this  Convention 
the  powers,  wishes  and  principles  of  a  minority  over  those  of  a  majority,  but  the 
power  of  the  minority  of  a  minority  over  the  majority.  I  will  now  proceed  to  the 
proposed  review  of  Legislative  proceedings  leading  to  the  call  of  this  body. 

In  the  session  of  1>06.  after  many  preceding  efforts,  a  resolution,  requiring  the 
sheriffs  to  take  the  votes  of  the  freeholders  at  their  next  election,  on  calhng  a  Con- 
vention, passed  the  House  of  Delegates.  In  the  Senate  it  was  postponed  indefinitely. 
At  that  period  we  were  so  divided  into  political  parties,  and  such  was  tlie  heat  and 
animosity  prevailing,  that  prudent  men  on  ever}'  side  feared  the  call  of  a  Convention. 
We  were  not  quahfied  for  cool  and  dispassionate  discussion.  The  causes  of  our  divi- 
sions were  of  a  temporary  character,  and  we  8.U  hoped  to  survive  them  with  their  ef- 
fects. We  hoped  to  see  the  tranquilhty  of  the  present  hour.  But  we  would  not  re- 
ject the  resolution,  lest  it  might  be  inferred  that  we  acknowledged  no  defects  to  exist, 
or,  at  least,  none  of  sufficient  magnitude  to  authorise  its  adoption.  The  subject, 
moreover,  had  not  been  sufficiently  canvassed  to  elicit  pubhc  opinion,  and  in  that 
state  of  things,  the  measure  was  calculated  to  excite,  rather  than  quiet  the  public 
mind.  A  preamble  assigning  those  reasons  as  the  grounds  of  it  was  drawn  up,  con- 
cluding with  a  resolution  of  postponement.  I  now  see  before  me  two  Judges  of  the 
General  Court,  not  members  of  tliis  body,  and  another  gentleman  who  is  a  member, 
all  of  whom  were  partakers  of  these  councils,  and,  if  the  curiosity  of  any  one  should 
be  excited,  he  can  satisfy  it  by  inspecting  the  Journal  of  the  Senate  of  that  day.  In 
tlie  year  1614,  a  bill  in  the  House  of  Delegates  was  rejected  by  a  small  majority  of 
votes.  On  that  occasion  those  in  the  affirmative  represented  a  considerable  majority 
of  the  people.  As  that  bill  was  reported,  it  had  the  following  preamble,  viz: 
'•  Whereas,  it  is  represented  to  the  present  General  Assembly  of  Virtiinia,  that  many 
good  citizens  desire  various  amendments  to  the  Constitution  of  this  State;  among 
the  most  important  is  the  extension  of  the  RigJit  of  Suffrage,  and  equalization  of  Repre- 
sentation, and  a  diminution  of  the  numbers  of  members  elected  in  pursuance  of  the  pre- 
sent laics  and  Constitution  of  this  Cominoniccalth^'  ^-c.  The  words  describing  the 
causes  of  discontent  were  stricken  from  the  preamble  before  the  question  on  the  pas- 
saofe  was  taken.  This  was  done  to  avoid  any  legislative  commitment  of  members,  as 
to  the  causes  of  complaint  or  necessity  of  redress.  Although  that  bill  did  not  pass, 
and  is  not  to  be  found  on  the  Journals,  a  printed  copy  is  to  be  found  in  the  clerk's  of- 


422 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION, 


fice.  By  this  measure,  it  is  made  manifest,  as  well  as  by  the  resolution  of  1806,  and 
all  the  intervening  efforts,  that  the  people  had  settled  upon  freehold  Suffrage  as  one 
of  the  evils  demanding  redress.  The  rejection  of  the  bill  of  1815,  by  those  repre- 
senting a  minority  of  the  people,  increased  the  public  discontent,  and  led  first  to 
a  meeting  of  a  political  character  at  Winchester,  and  after  that  to  the  assemblage  at 
Staunton,  called  the  Staunton  Convention,  of  1816.  The  memorial  of  that  body,  to- 
gether with  numerous  petitions,  were  referred  to  a  committee  in  the  House  of  Dele- 
gates of  1816.  Their  report  underwent  a  tedious  discussion.  The  bill  ordered  to  be 
brought  in  contained  a  provision  looking  to  the  same  object  witli  that  of  1815,  but  the 
objects  were  more  particularly  described  in  the  bill  of  1816,  viz  :  "  To  call  a  Conven- 
tion to  equalize  the  representation  of  the  free  white  people  of  this  State,  in  both 
Houses  of  the  General  Assembly — to  equalize  taxation — to  extend  the  Right  of  Suf- 
frage to  all  persons  having  sufficient  evidence  of  a  permanent  common  interest  with, 
and  attachment  to,  the  community,  and  provide  for  such  future  amendments  in  the 
Constitution  of  State  as  experience  shall  suggest  to  be  necessary."* 

Here  the  complaints  are  specified,  and  the  redress  suggested — "  to  equalize  the  re- 
presentation," of  whom?  "  the  free  wliite  people;"  and  not  of  white  people  and  ne- 
groes, nor  of  white  people  and  taxes.  Again,  where  is  their  representation  to  be 
equalized.^  and  the  answer  is  in  both  Houses  of  the  General  Assembly,"  and  not  in 
the  House  of  Delegates  alone.  The  Convention  of  1825,  at  Staunton,  need  not  be 
mentioned.  Their  memorial  was  the  subject  of  the  most  laboured  debates  in  the 
House  of  Delegates  of  that  year,  and  in  both  Houses  in  the  two  years  following,  in 
the  latter  of  which  the  prayer  of  it  was  granted.  Thus  it  appears,  that  the  question 
of  Suffrage  is  one  among  others  which  has  agitated  the  public  mind  incessantly  since 
the  year  1806;  and  after  it  has  undergone  so  many  discussions  in  the  General  Assem- 
bly— in  the  newspapers  and  at  the  Hustings,  where  it  was  made  a  test,  is  it  not  paying 
a  miserable  compliment  to  the  judgments  or  recollections  of  our  freeholding-consti- 
tuents  to  suppose  them  ignorant  in  the  spring  of  1828,  when  they  voted  for  this  Con- 
vention, that  the  contemplated  extension  of  Suffrage  would  be  among  the  most  pro- 
minent of  its  measures  ?  I  will  not  say  how  this  may  have  been  elsewhere,  but  I  will 
fearlessly  affirm,  that  my  constituents  were  not  imposed  on,  and  that  no  man  was  ca- 
pable of  practising  such  an  imposition  in  my  district.  Mr.  Chairman,  permit  me  to 
ask,  whether  after  this  review,  it  is  fair  to  deny,  that  the  freeholders  of  this  State  have, 
in  fact,  decided  the  question  under  consideration,  and  that  tee,  ourselves,  are  called  here 
by  their  authority  to  execute  their  judgment. 

While  on  the  question  of  Suffrage,  permit  me  to  follow  the  example  of  others,  by 
bringing  to  view,  as  connected  with  it,  the  principal  questions  in  dispute,  and  to  cast 
from  the  consideration  of  it  all  such  matters  as  we  agree  about.  The  remarks  I  in- 
tend to  offer  on  this  head  will  serve  to  shew,  and  I  think  to  demonstrate  what  I  pro- 
mised to  prove,  that  our  opponents  here  are  but  the  representatives  of  a  minority  of 
a  minority. 

In  determining,  then,  who  are,  according  to  all  our  principles,  the  only  safe  deposi- 
tories of  political  power,  whether  we  commence  with  the  fall  of  Adam— whether  we 
draw  our  maxims  from  the  savage,  the  natural  or  the  social  state  of  man — by  what- 
ever path  we  have  travelled  in  our  researches  or  reasonings,  we  have  all  arrived  at 
the  following  results — We  all  agree  to  exclude  the  other  sex — We  all  concur  in  ex- 
cluding infants,  those  under  military  bondage  in  actual  service — those  rendered  infa- 
mous by  their  crimes,  and  those  of  unsound  mind.  Who  then  are  they  whom  we  all 
agree  to  be  fit  and  capable  depositories  of  power  ?  They  are  males  of  twenty-one 
years  of  age  and  upwards — of  sound  mind,  not  infamous,  nor  subject  to  another  man's 
will — that  is,  freemen.  So  far  we  are  all  agreed,  from  whatever  reasoning  we  may 
have  arrived  at  this  agreement.  Questions  of  policy,  however,  present  themselves 
for  our  decision,  and  as  a  matter  of  policy  we  require  citizenship  and  residence  for  a 
certain  time,  but  those  opposed  to  us  require  in  addition  to  age,  citizenship  and  resi- 
dence, an  ownership  of  part  of  the  soil  of  the  State,  believing  that  nothing  less  than 
this  furnishes  sufficient  evidence  of  interest  and  attachment  to  it.  In  this  we  differ, 
and  this  presents  the  great  question  of  policy  on  which  we  are  so  seriously  divided. 
The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  said,  very  significantly,  the  other  day,  that  he  knew 
who  he  was  who  had  asserted  that  the  non-freeholders  were  a  majority  over  the  free- 
holding  class  of  the  community.  I  do  not  know  to  whom  he  alluded,  but  1  will  say 
that  the  non-freeholders  in  the  Western  country  are  to  the  freeholders  a  majority  of 
about  three  to  two.  I  have  understood  that  a  census  of  population  was  lately  taken 
in  the  county  of  Frederick,  from  which  it  appeared  that  there  were  about  two  thou- 
sand five  hundred  non-freeholders  in  that  single,  county,  excluded  from  Suffrage,  and 
who  would  be  otherwise  safe  depositories  of  power  under  all  our  principles,  and  I 
cannot  doubt  that  they  are  a  majority  throughout  the  State.  We  perfectly  agree  as 
to  those  who  are  the  depositories  of  every  scintilla  of  power,  but  differ  only  in  the 


*  See  Journal  of  House  of  Delegates  of  1816,  page  180. 


DEBATES   OF   THE   C  ON'rEXTION". 


423 


evidence  of  attachment  to  the  community  that  such  ought  to  possess  before  we  admit 
him  to  participate  in  its  exercise.  On  our  part  we  agree  that  this  evidence  ought  to 
be  afibrded,  but  we  insist  that  residence,  birth,  business,  choice  and  other  cir- 
cumstances, furnisli  this  evidence,  with  satisfactory  certainty.  If  I  am  right  in  be- 
Uevin^  the  non-freeholders  to  be  a  majority  of  the  qualified  depositories  of  power, 
then  1  must  be  right  in  charging  those  opposed  to  us  with  supporting  the  pretensions 
of  a  minoritv  to  govern  a  majority.    But  the  proof  does  not  stop  here. 

I  have  understood  that  the  freehold  vote  on  the  question  of  calling  a  Convention, 
was  a  verv  full  one.  From  all  the  information  I  have  been  able  to  collect,  from  con- 
versations with  members  of  this  Convention,  and  of  the  last  House  of  Delegates,  I 
have  come  to  the  conclusion  that  about  one-seventh  part  of  those  qualified  to  vote  did 
not  exercise  that  right  on  that  occasion.  If  I  am  right  in  this  estimate,  the  numbers 
of  qualified  voters  under  the  present  laws  will  be  ascertained  thus  : 

They  who  voted  for  a  Convention  were,  2l,S93 
And  they  who  voted  acrainst  it.  16.567 


Making,  35,780 
To  this  number  add  one-seventh,  not  voting.  5.540 


Making  the  number  of  voters,  44.320 
If  this  be  true,  and  if  none  but  freeholders  ought  to  vote,  then  gentlemen  are  here 
sustaining  the  pretensions  of  a  minority  of  those,  who  alone  ought  to  be  entitled.  Add 
to  the  number  who  voted  against  a  Convention  sixteen  tliousand  eio:ht  hundred  and 
eighty-seven,  one  seventh  part  of  that  nxmiber,  and  we  have  nineteen  thousand  three 
hundred  and  twenty-nine  freeholders,  who  are  opposed  to  reform,  and  if  all  the  free- 
holders are  but  a  minority  of  qualified  persons,  then  it  is  manifest  that  the  gentleman 
from  Chesterfield  and  those  who  act  with  him,  are  exerting  themselves  here  to  carry 
into  effect  the  principles  of  a  minority  of  a  minority — a  ramority  of  the  freeholders 
who  are  a  viuwrity  of  the  ichole  ;  and  the  intentions  of  nineteen  thousand  three  hundred 
and  twenty- nine  men  alone,  if  carried  out  into  the  form  of  a  Constitution  will  result 
in  estabhshing  the  will  of  that  handful  as  the  Government  of  tliis  whole  people.  This 
will  be  an  oligarchy.  Nor  less  will  their  will  be  effectual  to  rule  and  control  the  com- 
munity, if  it  should  prevail  to  prevent  those  amendments  of  the  Constitution,  which 
are  required  by  the  majority.  Tiiis  latter  consequence,  I  fear,  is  but  too  probable, 
and  should  this  be  the  result  of  our  labours,  the  efiects  will  be  deplorable. 

The  gentleman  from  Southampton,  (Mr.  Trezvant,)  joining  in  self-commendation 
of  our  public  morals,  attributes  their  purity  to  our  Constitution  and  laws :  urging,  that 
Governments  have  a  tendency  to  form  and  correct  pubhc  opinion.  That  legislation 
has  this  effect,  is  a  political  truth — it  is  not  the  whole  truth,  however,  but  only  half. 

The  law-giver,  to  be  wise,  must  regard  public  opinion.  Wise  laws,  in  a  great  de- 
gree, spring  out  of  that  opinion  and  conform  to  it.  Wliile  public  opinion  acts  on  the 
Tegislator,  his  laws  act  back  on  that  opinion  and  assist  to  enlighten  and  control  it. 
Thus,  legislation  and  public  opinion  mutually  act  on  each  other  as  moral  cause  and 
effect.  This  consideration  susfsrests  the  dutv  of  Government  to  consult  the  will  Eind 
feelings  of  the  people  under  every  ai-pect  and  every  change — a  duty  so  well  defined, 
and  so  ably  enforced  bv  mv  worthv  colleacrue  from  Brooke,  (Mr.  Campbell,)  that  I 
have  only  to  beo-  the  Committee  to  bear  his  argument  on  this  topic  in  mind.  I  will 
not  attempt  to  add  to  it. 

Having  shewn  how  many  persons  are  entitled  to  Sufirage  at  present.  I  will  proceed 
to  enquire  what  number  vriil  be  added  to  them  by  extending  the  privilege  to  all  per- 
sons paying  a  revenue  tax.  and  how  many  more,  if  those  subject  to  levies  and  not 
taxes  were  embraced.  Those  charged  with  land  tax  are  ninety-two  thousand — From 
this  whole  number  are  deducted,  first,  aU  females  ;  second,  all  male  minors,  and  per- 
sons of  unsoimd  mind  ;  third,  all  foreigners;  and  fourth,  all  freeholders  holding  real 
estates  less  than  that  which  at  present  confers  the  right.  These  deductions  leave,  as 
I  suppose,  the  number  I  have  already  stated  as  that  of  the  qualified  voters,  viz  :  forty- 
four  thousand  three  hundred  and  twenty — The  nmnber  of  persons  paying  taxes  on 
personal  property  are  ninety-five  thousand  ;  of  these,  I  may  say,  each  person  paying  a 
land  tax  is  one,  and  therefore,  deducting  the  qualified  voters  from  those  paying  a  pro- 
perty tax,  there  will  remain  about  fifty-one  thousand  :  but  to  ascertain  what  portion 
of  these  vrill  be  admitted  to  Sufirage  by  my  present  proposition,  I  have  had  examina- 
tions made  to  ascertain  what  proportion  of  the  ninety-five  thousand  are  females,  and 
find  them  to  be  one-ninth  of  die  whole,  and  supposing  that  male  minors  and  persons 
labouring  under  disabilities,  may  amount  to  as  large  a  proportion  as  all  females  of 
every  description,  (which  is  allowing  too  much,)  I  arrive  at  the  result  in  the  following 
manner : 


424 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Number  of  persons  paying  taxes  on  personal  property  as  stated  in  the  Commis- 
sioners' books,  96,856 

Deduct  for  females  of  all  descriptions  one-ninth,  10,650 

Ditto  for  infant  males  and  others,  10,650 

Ditto  all  those  now  entitled  to  vote,  as  freeholders,  and 

also  on  the  property  list,  44,320 

  65,620 


30,236 

This  would  leave  thirty  thousand  two  hundred  and  thirty-six  persons  to  v/hom,  by 
my  present  proposition,  I  would,  extend  the  Right  of  Suffrage.  By  this  addition 
the  number  of  voters  will  be  augmented  to  seventy-four  thousand  five  hundred  and 
fifty-six.  Should  this  proposition  prevail,  it  will  encourage  me  to  propose  its  further 
enlargement  to  all  persons  subject  to  levies,  or  other  county  impositions  payable  in 
money  or  labour.  It  is  difficult  to  arrive  at  any  correct  estimate  of  the  number  of 
males  twenty-one  years  of  age,  who  are  subject  to  road  laws  and  levies.  From  militia 
returns,  and  from  imperfect  lists  of  titheables  in  our  power,  it  is  reasonable  to  estimate 
them  at  about  twenty-two  thousand.  These  added  to  the  thirty  thousand  two  hundred 
and  thirty-six,  who  pay  a  property  tax,  make  a  total  of  fifty-two  thousand  two  hundred 
and  thirty-six  men,  twenty-one  years  of  age,  of  sound  mind,  and  therefore  safe  de- 
positories of  political  power,  who  are  wholly  disfranchised  in  Virginia ;  others  make 
this  number  greater,  but  I  am  sure  my  calculation  is  within  bounds.  The  class,  thus 
excluded,  have  been  claiming  their  rights  ever  since  1806.  They  have  not  been  noisy 
and  troublesome,  because  they  depended  on  their  freeholding  brethren,  whose  honor- 
able exertions  in  their  favour  have  been  incessant.  The  excluded  classes  were  told 
from  every  quarter  to  be  patient,  and  the  freeholders,  their  neighbours,  would  deal 
liberally  with  them.  When  the  vote  was  taken  on  the  law  of  1827,  whether  a  Con- 
vention should  be  called  or  not,  they  were  excluded,  as  they  had  been  on  the  passage 
of  that  law.  They  were  again  excluded  from  the  polls  when  the  members  of  this 
body  were  elected,  because  those  who  made  the  law  of  last  session  were,  like  our- 
selves, the  agents  of  freeholders.  Last  June  these  people  were  assured  that  this  Con- 
vention would  make  full  provision  for  them  :  this  they  believed  and  rested  in  quiet.  A 
majority  of  freeholders  are  here  ready  by  their  delegates  to  redeem  every  pledge  : 
they  are  manacled,  however,  by  the  law  which  scaled  their  power  by  the  census  of 
1810.  Instead  of  relieving  the  majority  of  qualified  persons,  members  of  this  body, 
representing  nineteen  thousand  three  hundred  and  twenty-nine  freeholders,  are  ten- 
dering to  us  with  an  unrelenting  hand,  their  ratios  of  representation  in  three  forms — 
first,  white  persons  and  taxation;  second,  the  Federal  number,  and  third,  taxation 
alone  in  the  Senate,  as  if  determined  on  an  aristocracy  of  wealth  in  one  house  at  least. 
I  have  shewn,  that  the  freeholding  class  qualified  to  vote  by  the  present  laws  are  to 
the  number  of  qualified  persons  as  forty-four  thousand  three  hundred  and  twenty,  to 
fifty-two  thousand  two  hundred  and  thirty-six ;  of  the  former  number,  twenty-one 
thousand  eight  hundred  and  ninety-three  voted  for  relief :  to  these  are  to  be  added 
one-seventh  of  their  number,  who  omitted  to  vote,  and  three  thousand  one  hundred 
and  twenty-seven,  making  twenty-five  thousand  and  twenty  freeholders  on  the  side 
of  the  non-freeholders,  and  of  course,  against  every  basis  except  the  free  white  popu- 
lation. To  come  at  a  satisfactory  estimate  of  popular  strength,  I  think  it  fair  to  add 
to  the  excluded  classes,  the  freeholders  who  voted  for  this  Convention  and  their  pro- 
portion of  qualified  voters  who  did  not  vote :  this  will  present  us  with  an  astonishing 
state  of  things  ;  nineteen  thousand  three  hundred  and  twenty-nine  freeholders,  oppos- 
ing the  will  of  twenty-five  thousand  and  twenty  of  their  own  class,  and  of  fifty-two 
thousand  two  hundred  and  thirty-six  qualified  persons,  not  of  their  class ;  that  is, 
nineteen  thousand  three  hundred  and  twenty-nine  men,  against  seventy-seven  thou- 
sand two  hundred  and  fifty,  and  (owing  to  the  injustice  of  the  law  under  which  we 
are  acting)  with  a  fair  prospect  of  success.  Here  we  behold  that  oligarchy  we  depre- 
cate !  After  the  rise  of  this"  Convention,  if  nothing  be  done  for  their  relief,  this  large 
proscribed  class  will  not  again  be  lulled  to  sleep — their  eyes  are  on  us  at  this  moment — 
not  a  paragraph  in  the  Gazettes  escapes  them — they  will  discover  in  these,  that  they 
have  no  attachment  to  their  country  in  common  with  a  freeholder.  They  will  read 
in  the  speeches  of  members,  that  ilieir  allegiance  is  that  of  the  heart,  that  there  is 
another  allegiance  which  is  the  creature  of  reason.  After  all  this,  should  this  country 
be  again  involved  in  war,  how  can  these  oppressed,  excluded,  disgraced  men,  be  en- 
trusted to  bear  arms  in  its  defence.?  When  the  gentleman  assures  us,  that  the  alle- 
giance he  bears  the  Commonwealth  is  that  of  the  heart,  I  believe  him— not  because 
he  declares  it,  I  know  it  by  comparing  him  with  myself,  and  such  as  I  am,  I  suppose 
every  other  member  to  be.  Rely  upon  it,  all  those  to  whom  Government  looks  for 
support,  either  of  general  or  county  administration,  in  peace  or  in  war,  owe  it  the  al- 
legiance of  the  heart,  or  they  ouffht  not  to  be  trusted  with  its  defence  ;  and  thus  al- 
legiance ought  not  to  be  worn  down  by  that  oppression  which  breaks  the  heart. 


DEBATES    OF    THE  COyVZSTlOy. 


425 


I  iiave  altars  considered  out  system  of  making  and  repairing  public  roads  as  pecu- 
liarlv  oppressive.  Farmers  and  others  in  the  West,  who  employ  white  labour,  feel  it 
in  the  waofes  ther  are  compelled  to  crive.  In  some  places  a  poor  man  walks  ten  or 
fifteen  miTes  with  his  spade.  £Lxe,  or  mattock,  to  work  on  roads.  In  many  places,  ten 
and  twenty  dars  in  the  year  are  required,  and  this  from  journeymen,  who  have  not 
yet  acquired  stock  enough  to  commence  for  themselves — from  labourers  and  others 
who  have  no  property  in  the  world.  I  had  hopes,  that  afrer  reforming  Representa- 
tion, one  of  the  first  measures  of  legislation  would  be.  to  abolish  our  present  road 
laws,  and  with  them  every  species  of  poU-ta^  :  until  then,  I  have  no  hope  to  see  this 
great  evil  cured.  I  have  witnessed  so  many  abortive  efibrts  to  put  down  these 
oppressive  regulations,  that  until  Representation  is  reformed.  1  never  hope  for  a  suc- 
cessfiil  one. 

Mr.  Chairman,.  I  do  not  concur  in  the  expressions  of  alarm  for  our  divisions. 
There  is  not  the  least  dajiger  without.  When  I  belbre  spoke  vf  numbers.  I  meant 
any  thing  else  than  a  threat  of  forty-two  tliousand  bayonets.  I  said  that  if  om- hopes 
were  to  appease  the  anxiety  of  so  many  men,  these  hopes  would  be  fatally  blasted  by 
a  rejection  of  their  jixst  claims,  and  to  urge,  that  soon,  very  soon,  these  claims  must 
prevail.  I  am  happy  to  find  that  but  one  gentlemen,  (Gov.  Giles.)  considered  me  as 
uttering  a  threat,  and  that  but  one  ether  gentlemen.  (Mr.  Stanard.)  looked  on  my 
language  as  uncourteous.  Many  expressions  escape  us  in  the  heat  of  debate  which 
our  own  refiections  would  chasten.  Of  this  description,  was  the  figure  of  the  bloody 
sword  used  by  the  gentleman  from  Hanover,  (Mr.  3Iorris.)  cind  the  declaration  of  the 
gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  ^JSli.  Leigh.)  that  a  Government  in  the  hands  of  a  ma- 
jority of  numbers,  would  be  such  an  oppressive  and  insupportable  tyranny,  as  no  man 
eter'did  or  would  submit  to.  There  is  no  danger  of  a  dismemberment  of  tiiis  State,  I 
hope,  and  yet  it  will  soon  be  ruled  by  numbers.  To  those  who  are  in  the  habit  of 
looiiing  to  such  an  event.  I  will  communicate  an  advice  once  given  to  mvself.  by 
ilajor  Jackson  of  Philadelphia,  who  I  was  told,  was  the  last  surviving  member  of 
G-eneral  Washington's  military  family.  Speaking  of  the  purchase  of  Louisiana  as  an 
acquisition  likely  to  produce  a  division  of  the  Union  of  these  States  in  time,  the  sren- 
tleman  I  hare  mentioned,  cautioned  me  in  a  low  voice  thus  :  -  when  any  man  speaks 
of  a  division  of  these  States,  as  a  thing  desfrable  or  possible,  he  does  more  than  com- 
mit an  error."  And  I  can  assure  gentlemen  here,  that  when  they  speak  of  a  division 
of  this  State,  as  a  thing  to  be  desired,  they  do    more  than  commit  an  error." 

We  are  told  from  several  quarters,  that  if  Sufirage  be  extended,  the  purity  of  our 
elections  will  be  destroyed,  and  tumult  and  riot  take  place  of  peace  and  order.  The 
gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  almost  questions  the  words  of  my  colleagues,  when 
speaking  of  matters  vrithin  thefr  own  knowledge.  They  had  said  that  their  consti- 
tuents were  well  acquainted  with  the  efi'ects  of  General  Sufea^e.  in  the  States  on 
our  border,  and  that  they  nevertheless  desired  that  privilege  extended  here  as  far  as 
we  propose.  That  gentleman  declares,  he  never  heard  of  one  Virg-inian.  who  had 
ever  seen  an  election  in  Pennsylvania,  Ohio,  or  Kentucky,  who  was  not  cured,  for- 
ever cured,  of  a  desfre  to  see  Sntfrage  extended,  or  the  ballot  introduced.  I,  in  my  place, 
am  bound  to  confirm  what  my  colleagues  have  declared.  3Iy  experience  is  not  great ; 
indeed,  I  never  saw  many  elections  in  Pennsylvania,  and  none  in  Ohio  ;  those  I  saw 
in  Pennsylvania  were  on  the  border  of  Vfrginia,  wheie  many  of  the  inhabitants  were 
of  Virginia  origin,  having  been  inhabitants  of  our  cotinty  of  Tohioghany,  so  gaUantly 
given  away  by  the  wisdom  of  the  men  of  1776.  I  never  saw  there,  a  more  riotous  elec- 
tion, than  that  of  17c'9,  in  this  city,  when  one  of  the  candidates  for  Congress,  was  a 
gentleman  now  a  member  of  this  House,  and  the  otlier,  the  father  of  another  mem- 
ber ;.  he  was  personated  on  that  occasion,  by  a  third  member  of  this  Convention,  who, 
since  then,  held  for  twenty  years,  the  office  of  Attorney  General,  during  all  which 
time,  he  says,  the  whole  Government  went  on  very  well. 

Mr.  Chafrman, — The  eflort  we  are  making  is  one.  the  object  of  which,  is  to  reform 
our  Constitution,  on  our  own  principles,  and  to  give  practical  effect  to  those  declared 
in  the  Bui  of  Rights.  What  we  contemplate  is  not  a  revolution.  The  Government 
is  an  elective  Repubhc,  and  we  mean  to  leave  it  so.  Yet  we  are  warned  of  tiie  dan- 
gers and  horrors  of  revolution.  Revolutions,  it  is  said,  never  stop  at  the  objects  first 
had  in  view,  but  the  ball  once  set  in  motion,  goes  downward  on  the  road  to  anar- 
chy or  despotism,  and  never  stops.  One  false  step  can  never  be  recalled  ;  the  descent 
to  ruin  is  easy,  but  to  return,  difficult,  if  not  impossible  :  hoc  opus,  hie  labor  est.  Could 
we  forget  where  we  are.  and  listen  to  the  speeches  of  gendemen  in  opposition,  we 
should  forget  the  business  we  are  enaaged  in ;  we  should  imagine  we  were  listening 
to  Burke  on  the  French  Revolution.  All  the  horrors  of  that  volcano  are  set  before 
us.  as  if  in  our  madness,  we  were  ready  to  plunge  into  it.  We  are  likened  to  the 
impious  priests  of  France  in  the  last  age  ;  we  are  cEilled  fanatics,  dreamers,  and  even 
drivellers,  by  a  gentieman  of  this  city :  the  history  of  the  ancient  Repubfics  is  invoked 
to  alarm  us :  at  one  time  it  is  said,  that  each  of  these  perished  when  Suffiage  was  made 
general,  and  Goveniments  established  on  the  rights  of  numbers,    With  much  mor» 

54 


426 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


truth  we  are  again  told,  that  these  Republics  with  all  their  temporary  Governments, 
have  fallen,  without  leaving  in  their  histories  any  thing  for  our  instruction:  the  truth 
is,  that  neither  in  antiquity,  nor  in  the  ages  succeeding  the  fall  of  Rome,  were  there 
any  Governments  formed  on  our  model ;  not  one.  Before  ours,  there  never  existed 
one  Government  in  the  world  in  which  the  whole  power  was  vested  in  the  people, 
and  exercised  by  them  through  their  Representatives;  in  which,  powers  were  divided 
between  separate  and  distinct  bodies  of  magistracy,  and  in  which  no  nobility  or  privi- 
leged order  existed.  It  is  in  vain,  theretore,  that  we  are  incessantly  lectured  like 
school-boys  about  the  Republics  of  Greece,  Sparta,  Lacedaemon,  Rome,  and  Car- 
thage. In  our  sense  of  the  term,  in  the  Virginia  sense  of  it,  neither  of  these  was  a 
Republic;  they  have  perished  indeed,  as  all  others  of  the  same  age  have  done;  some 
by  war  and  conquest,  some  by  one  cause,  and  some  by  another.  Perhaps,  among  the 
inscrutable  decrees  of  Providence,  there  is  one  by  which  all  Governments  like  the  men 
composing  them,  are  to  have  a  beginning,  a  maturity,  and  an  end. 

Gentlemen  who  oppose  us,  continually  turn  our  attention  to  England,  as  the  coun- 
try whose  history  is  replete  with  instruction,  and  from  whose  Constitution  and  laws, 
we  have  borrowed  the  trial  by  jury,  habeas  corpus,  and  the  scheme  of  Representation 
itself.  I  concur  with  the  gentlemen  in  their  appeals  to  this  source  of  informa- 
tion. I  believe  with  the  gentlemen  opposed  to  us,  that  the  Government  of  Eng- 
land is  the  best  that  could  exist  for  that  people ;  it  would  not  do  for  us.  We  have 
dispensed  with  king,  nobility,  and  hierarchy;  we  have  no  use  for  these  establish- 
ments. I  do  not  believe  the  English  people  could  be  governed  by  our  Constitution 
and  laws,  and  I  am  the  more  proud  of  tliem  and  my  country,  in  proportion  as  I  am 
satisfied  that  no  people  on  earth,  ourselves  excepted,  could  sustain  our  free  institu- 
tions. It  cannot  be  denied,  that  in  the  elective  system  of  England,  in  her  common 
law,  in  her  charters,  and  customs,  we  are  to  look  tor  the  sources  from  which  we  and 
our  ancestors  have  extracted  our  best  principles.  Thus  far  I  do  most  heartily  concur 
with  the  gentlemen  from  Chesterfield,  from  Richmond,  and  from  Orange. 

But  the  ball  of  revolution,  once  set  in  motion,  rolls  down  to  anarchy  first,  and  then 
to  despotism  !  It  never  returns  !  And  is  it  really  so  Permit  me  to  call  the  atten- 
tion of  the  Committee  to  some  of  the  civil  revolutions  of  England,  (for  there  have 
been  several.)  in  which  the  ball  of  revolution  ascended,  and  stopped  at  the  point  de- 
sired; and  the  fruits  of  which,  are  now  the  boast,  both  of  that  country  and  of  this.  On 
what  does  the  Englishman  pride  himself,  when  contrasting  his  condition,  with  that  of 
the  subject  of  any  other  country  ?  The  answer  readily  occurs ;  the  great  and  lesser 
charters  of  English  liberties ;  jury  trial,  the  habeas  corpus,  the  common  law,  the 
Right  of  Sufirage  ;  in  short,  the  Englishman  rejoices  in  his  civil  and  religious  liberties ; 
in  a  Government  of  laws.  Among  all  his  blessings,  he  is  in  the  habit  of  naming 
magna  charta  as  the  first :  when  and  how  was  that  charter  obtained  It  was  obtained 
by  revolution  at  Runny  Meade.  A  majority  of  the  Barons  demanded  of  King  John 
a  charter  of  privileges  and  liberties,  as  English  subjects  :  the  King  refused,  and  this 
majority  of  Barons  armed  themselves,  {for  numbers  ruled  there.)  The  King  wrote  to 
them,  to  know,  what  were  these  liberties  and  privileges  about  which  they  were  so 
anxious.  The  Barons  answered,  that  the  privileges  they  demanded  were  granted  by 
the  King's  father.  From  this  answer  it  is  supposed,  that  the  great  charter  had  first 
been  granted  by  King  Henry  the  third.  This  fact  is  not  certain  however,  nor  is  it 
important :  the  King  signed  certain  articles  of  agreement,  promising  a  charter  of  the 
rights  demanded,  w^iich  the  Barons  had  drawn  up  in  writing,  as  we  propose  to  do : 
he  engaged  to  meet  them  on  a  certain  day,  in  July,  1215,  to  give  full  effect  to  this 
agreement.  Instead  of  performing  what  he  had  promissd  to  do  in  good  faith,  the 
King  interposed  a  difficulty ;  that  difficulty  was  not  a  ratio  of  freemen  and  villains, 
of  men  and  taxes,  or  of  federal  numbers.  He  wrote  to  the  Pope,  and  placed  his 
kingdom  under  his  protection,  offijring  himself  for  a  crusade  to  the  Holy  Land,  and 
when  the  day  arrived,  instead  of  performing  his  engagement,  he  informed  the  Barons 
of  his  intentions,  and  that  his  kingdom  being  now  the  patrimony  of  St.  Peter,  they  could 
not  touch  it  without  impious,  (if  I  recollect  we  have  heard  this  word  here,)  hands.  The 
Barons,  on  receipt  of  this  evasive  answer,  attacked  and  carried  several  of  the  King's 
castles  ;  and,  as  the  Pope  could  give  no  assistance,  and  St.  Peter  came  not  to  claim  his 
heritage,  the  King  and  his  minority  had  to  yield  to  a  majority  of  Barons.  The  char- 
ter was  signed  and  sealed,  and  with  the  agreement  which  preceded  it,  is  preserved  in 
the  tower  of  London  to  this  day.  This  charter  is  a  body  of  what  we  would  now  call 
common  law,  of  family  law.  The  ladies  of  that  day  were  as  effectually  represented 
by  those  Barons,  as  they  of  the  present,  are  by  us.  Their  rights  of  dower ;  of  quaran- 
tine ;  of  protection  during  minority  against  disparaging  marriages,  are  enforced;  not 
granted,  for  they  had  existed  from  time  immemorial. 

This  glorious  civil  revolution,  was  effected  in  two  or  three  short  months,  in  the 
year  1215.  Between  that  year,  and  the  year,  1688,  several  revolutions  occurred  and 
were  attended  with  the  same  happy  results,  the  consequences  of  which,  were  fre- 
quent renewals  of  the  great,  and  the  additions  of  the  lesser  charter,  and  the  articuli 


DEBATES   OF   THE  COJ^VENTION. 


427 


super  cartas.  In  each  of  these  revolutions  the  ball  was  rolled  up,  and.  at  the  end  of 
each,  the  rights  of  the  people  who  rolled  it,  acquired  additional  strength. 

I  pass  on  to  the  well-known  revolution  of  1(588.  Until  this  time,  England  had 
never  known  the  blessings  of  an  independent  Judiciary.  The  tenure  quamdiu  bene 
se  gesserit,  had  never  been  inserted  in  but  one  commission.  Great  as  was  the  value 
placed  by  our  Whig  ancestors  in  1688,  on  their  charters,  their  laws,  their  jury  trial, 
and  their  writ  of  habeas  corpus,  they  looked  upon  these  rights  and  privileges,  as  in 
some  degree  of  danger,  so  long  as  the  Judges  were  dependent  on  the  King  or  his 
ministry.  The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  said  the  other  day,  that  when  the  King 
is  weak  and  protiigate,  the  rights  of  the  people  gain  ground.  Winiam  was  weak  at 
least :  his  ruhng  desire  was  to  insert  in  the  act  ot  settlement,  a  provision  limiting  the 
succession  to  the  heirs  of  his  kins-woman,  the  Princess  Sophia  of  Hanover :  he  was 
too  weak  to  perceive  that  his  Parliament  were  determined  to  do  this  at  all  events; 
that  no  other  course  could  consist  with  their  policy.  The  Parliament  practised  on 
the  King's  weakness,  and  as  a  consideration  for  the  settlement  of  the  Crown,  ex- 
torted his  concession,  that  the  Judges  of  England  should  hold  their  commissions 
during  good  behaviour.  Unfortunately  for  Scotland  and  Ireland,  this  provision  was 
omitted  in  each  of  their  acts  of  union  with  England,  and  the  effects  of  Judicial  de- 
pendence and  independence,  have  been  manifested  in  the  three  kingdoms  in  our  own 
days,  A  great  effort,  conunon  to  the  Whigs  of  England,  Ireland,  and  Scotland,  was 
made  at  tiie  same  time.  The  object  was  Parliamentary  reform.  The  necessity  of  re- 
form was  manifest.  The  means  proposed  were  orderly  and  constitutional.  Govern- 
ment endeavored  to  suppress  the  United  Irish  in  Ireland,  the  friends  of  reform  in 
Scotland,  and  corresponding  societies  in  London.  In  conflicts  between  Government 
and  people,  considerable  excesses  happened  in  each  kingdom.  The  laws  of  Ireland 
differ  from  those  of  Scotland,  and  the  laws  of  each  from  those  of  England  ;  I  mean 
those  relating  to  crimes  and  punishments  :  the  greatest  difference  was  in  the  Forums, 
before  which  the  subjects  of  each  kingdom  were  brouofht  for  trial.  The  Englishman, 
was  brought  before  independent  Judges  ;  those  of  Ireland  and  Scotland,  before  Judges 
amenable  to  the  King  and  his  ministers-.  The  Irishman  suffered  death ;  the  Scotch- 
man banishment;  while  the  Englishman  was  acqiiitted  and  greeted  as  a  patriot.  En- 
ghshmen  were  not  yet  satisfied  witli  the  concession  of  William  ;  the  Judges  were 
not  secure  from  a  demise  of  the  Crown,  and  this  defect,  at  length,  was  remedied  by 
statute,  in  the  reign  of  one  of  the  George's.  Here  is  a  brief  outline  of  the  history  of 
four  or  five  civil  revolutions,  if  our  present  effort  may  be  called  one.  All  these  hap- 
pened in  our  mother  country.  Before  the  first,  the  Government  of  that  country  was 
a  feudal  monarchy,  a  despotism  ;  since  the  last,  it  is  a  free  limited  monarchy.  These 
civil  revolutions  have  made  that  Government  such,  that  it  is  receiving  every  day  the 
warm  and  reiterated  plaudits  of  our  opponents  on  this  floor.  From  the  last  of  these 
revolutions,  we  have  copied  our  independent  Judiciary  ;  and,  although,  I  will  aid  to 
create  more  responsibility  there,  I  pray,  that  we.  and  our  posterity  to  remotest  time, 
may  never  be  weak  enough  to  part  with  this  surest,  greatest,  sheet-anchor  of  every 
free  State. 

Mr.  Chairman,  what  do  we  hear  on  tiiis  occasion,  more  than  the  alarming  predic- 
tions, melancholy  forebodings,  and  evil  auguries  usual  on  every  question  of  re- 
form ?  When  were  men  in  power  ready  for  reform  ?  When  did  they  yield  power 
except  to  force  or  fear  r  We  have  lived  to  see  Cathohc  emancipation  in  Ireland,  after 
the  failure  of  many  attempts  to  accomplish  that  measure.  On  each  of  these  occa- 
sions, ministers  answered  according  to  custom  ;  sometimes,  that  the  country  was  at 
war  with  France,  or  the  whole  Continent;  sometimes,  the  Christian  religion  was  in 
danger;  and  at  others,  that  reform  would  jeo]  ardize  both  Church  and  State.  Their 
predictions  were  never  more  fearful  and  gloomy,  than  on  the  eve  of  Catholic  eman- 
cipation. They  were  precisely  of  the  same  nature,  and  of  the  same  justice,  with 
those  of  our  opponents  here.  The  Catholics  are  emancipated,  and  England  has 
gained  strength  by  that  act  of  justice.  By  a  similar  act  of  political  emancipation, 
Virginia  will  increase  her  strength  and  happiness,  notwithstanding  the  forebodings  of 
men  about  to  part  with  power. 

Permit  me  to  ask,  if  all  civil  revolutions  go  downward,  and  necessarily  tend  to  an- 
archy and  despotism,  what  do  gentlemen  make  of  that  of  1776  .'  Perhaps,  there  are 
those  who  think  us  anarchists  at  the  present  moment. 

History  does  not  present  us  with  the  arguments  of  King  John  and  his  minority,  in 
1215 ;  these  are  lost  in  the  mists  of  time.  The  same  may  be  said  of  all  revolutionary 
transactions  before  that  of  1638.  With  the  Tory  arguments  of  that  time,  we  are  well 
acquainted.  The  exclusive  friends  of  the  old  Constitution  of  England,  treated  all  in- 
novation as  dangerous,  and  as  tending  to  destroy  the  royal  prerogative.  There  was 
a  respectable  party  opposed  to  that  revolution,  when  it  took  place,  and  many  an 
honest  Englishman  is  of  that  opinion  at  tlie  present  day.  There  always  was,  and 
there  always  will  be,  a  strong  party  in  every  country  opposed  to  reform,  however  ne- 
cessary, and  however  apparent  that  necessity,  and  their  intentions  are  generally 


428 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


honest,  and  their  views  patriotic.  Between  the  contending  parties  on  such  occasions, 
time  is  the  judge,  and  experience  the  arbiter. 

Mr.  Chairman, — I  acknowledge  the  kindness  of  the  Chair  and  Committee,  mani- 
fested in  their  attention  to  my  remarks  on  tliis  trying  occasion. 

Mr.  Stanard  olfered,  by  way  of  concihation  and  compromise,  the  following  amend- 
ment to  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Leigh  : 

"  And  every  such  citizen  who  shall  be  a  lessee  of  a  tenement  of  the  yearly  value 
of  dollars,  for  a  term  of  or  more  years,  by  deed  duly  recorded  three  months 

before  the  time  he  may  offer  to  vote,  and  of  which  lease  at  least  years  shall 

be  unexpired  at  the  time  he  offers  to  vote. 

"  And  every  such  citizen  who  shall  within  one  year  before  he  may  offer  to  vote, 
have  a  tax  or  taxes  to  tlie  amount  of  assessed  on  property,  whether  real  or 

personal  owned  by  him,  and  shall  have  actually  paid  such  tax  or  taxes  at  least  three 
months  before  he  shall  so  offer  to  vote." 

Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour  called  for  a  division  of  the  question,  and  it  was  divided  accordingly. 

Mr.  Johnson  suggested,  that  if  the  present  amendment  should  be  adopted,  it  would 
supercede  that  part  of  Mr.  Leigh's  amendment  which  admits  termors  with  leases  re- 
newable at  pleasure.  He  pointed  out  as  an  objection  to  that  part  of  Mr.  Leigh's 
amendment,  that  leases  of  the  description  he  has  mentioned,  instead  of  being  as  now 
confined  to  Norfolk,  would  be  multiplied  every  where,  and  so  drawn  as  to  confer  the 
Right  of  Suffrage,  and  yet  not  to  extend  beyond  a  single  year  or  other  limited  term  : 
this  could  easily  be  effected  by  making  the  fine  to  be  paid  for  the  renewal  of  the  lease 
so  large  that  no  tenant  could  pay  it. 

Mr.  Nicholas  felt  embarrassed  in  voting  for  Mr.  Stanard's  amendment  before  the 
blanks  were  filled.    He  thought  Mr.  Leigh's  more  safe. 

After  some  desultory  conversation  on  the  details  of  Mr.  Stanard's  amendment : 

Mr.  Mercer  expressed  his  regret  at  the  present  course,  and  his  preference  to  have 
the  resolutions  of  the  Legislative  Committee  taken  up  and  decided  on  in  their  order. 
The  present  amendments  applied  to  the  first  three  resolutions — he  wished  to  see  the 
fourth  taken  up,  which  related  to  house-keepers. 

The  question  was  now  put  on  the  first  member  of  Mr.  Stanard's  amendment,  viz : 

"  And  every  such  citizen  who  shall  be  a  lessee  of  a  tenement  of  the  yearly  value 
of  dollars,  for  a  term  of  or  more  years,  by  deed  duly  recorded  three 

months  before  the  time  he  may  offer  to  vote,  and  of  which  lease  at  least  years 
shall  be  unexpired  at  the  time  he  offers  to  vote;"  and  decided  in  the  negative  :  Ayes 
37,  Noes  52.    So  the  first  clause  of  the  amendment  was  rejected. 

The  question  now  recurring  on  the  second  part  of  Mr.  Stanard's  amendment,  Mr. 
Johnson  expressed  his  decided  predilection  for  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Leigh  (slightly 
modified) — but  expressed  his  willingness  to  vote  for  Mr.  Stanard's  proposition,  if  it 
should  prove  the  best  that  can  be  got.  He  declared  himself  the  advocate  of  a  landed 
basis  for  the  Right  of  Suffrage — which  he  pressed  as  a  ground  on  which  both  parties 
might  meet. 

Mr.  Monroe  then  said  :  It  is  with  great  regret  that  I  rise  to  address  the  Committee 
at  this  late  hour ;  but,  as  I  presume  the  House  will  take  a  vote  on  the  question  to-day, 
X  deem  it  ray  duty  to  do  it.  Having  stated^  in  an  earl}'^  stage  of  this  debate,  that  I 
thought  that  the  Right  of  Suffrage  might  be  extended  beyond  the  hmit  prescribed  by 
the  present  Constitution,  and  with  advantage  to  every  class  in  the  community,  it  is 
my  desire  to  show  to  what  extent,  I  think  it  may  be  carried,  and  within  what  limit  it 
should  be  confined.  I  feel  bound  to  do  this  in  explanation  of  my  own  conduct,  and 
that  my  principles  may  be  understood  by  my  fellow-citizens.    I  will  be  very  brief. 

By  the  resolution  as  reported  from  the  Legislative  Committee,  as  well  as  by  the 
amendments  to  it,  which  have  been  proposed,  the  Right  of  Suffrage  is  secured  to  all 
who  now  enjoy  it.  This  is  perfectly  right,  and  if  any  individual  holds  a  freehold  in- 
terest which  has  come  to  him  by  descent,  devise,  marriage,  or  marriage  settlement,  or 
by  reversion  of  a  voter,  which  it  is  proposed  to  make  very  moderate,  the  Right  of 
Suffrage  is  to  be  extended  to  him  also  :  and  by  another  amendment  which  is  now  be- 
fore the  Committee,  it  is  proposed  to  extend  this  right  to  lessees.  I  confess,  that  under 
certain  modifications,  I  shall  readily  agree  to  this.  But  my  object  is  to  confine  the 
elective  franchise  to  an  interest  in  land :  to  some  interest  of  moderate  value  in  the 
territory  of  the  Commonwealth.  What  is  our  country is  it  any  thing  more  than 
our  territory  ?  and  why  are  we  attached  to  it  ?  is  it  not  the  effect  of  our  residence  in 
it,  either  as  the  land  of  our  nativity  or  the  country  of  our  choice  ?  Our  adopted  coun- 
try ?  And  of  our  attachment  to  its  institutions.?  And  what  excites  and  is  the  best  evi- 
dence of  such  attachment.?  Some  hold  in  the  territory  itself;  some  interest  in  the 
soil :  something  tiiat  we  own,  not  as  passengers  or  voyagers,  who  have  no  property 
in  the  State,  and  nothing  to  bind  them  to  it.  The  object  is  to  give  firmness  and  per- 
manency to  our  attachment.  And  these  are  the  best  means  by  which  it  may  be  ac- 
complished.   Mere  transient  passengers  may  be  foreigners.    As  to  the  citizens  of 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


429 


other  States  of  the  Union,  I  consider  them  as  citizens  of  Virginia,  and  so  identified 
with  us,  that  they  may  be  rehed  on  in  that  character.  But  our  country  is  an  asylum 
for  the  oppressed  of  ail  countries ;  they  fly  to  us  from  all  regions  of  the  globe,  parti- 
cularly from  Great  Britain ;  and  more  especially  from  Ireland — they  fly  to  us  from 
poverty  and  oppression.  I  am  wilhng  to  receive  them ;  but  I  consider  those  people 
as  very  ditferent  from  ours ;  and  as  they  are  not  fit  to  be  at  once  admitted  to  equal 
political  rights  amoncr  us,  they  should  not  be  permitted  to  participate  in  the  sove- 
reignty, nor  get  hold  upon  the  Government  till  they  have  been  rendered  fit  for  it  by 
the  acquirement  of  different  feelings  and  principles. 

Oars  is  a  Government  of  the  people  :  it  may  properly  be  called  self-government.  I 
wish  it  may  be  preserved  forever  in  the  hands  of  the  people.  Our  revolution  was 
prosecuted  on  those  principles,  and  all  the  Constitutions  which  have  been  adopted  in 
tills  country  are  founded  on  the  same  basis.  But  the  whole  system  is  as  yet  an  ex- 
periment ;  it  remains  to  be  seen  whether  such  a  Government  can  be  maintained  ;  and 
that  it  may,  in  our  Union,  I  have  no  doubt.  But  wise  provisions,  as  to  the  exercise 
of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  and  the  powers  of  Government,  are  indispensable  for  its 
preservation.  We  ought  to  profit  by  the  examples  of  every  other  nation ;  we  ought 
to  look  at  the  history  of  other  E.epublics,  and  see  the  causes  which  led  to  their  over- 
throw. When  we  find  that  the  most  important  and  democratical  among  them  have 
been  soon  overthrown,  we  ought  to  guard  against  the  causes  which  led  to  their  down- 
fall. We  have  come  here  that  we  may  prepare  a  form  of  Government  for  our  native 
State.  The  experience  of  all  the  other  States  and  our  own  experience  are  before  us. 
But  the  experiment  is  still  in  operation,  and  nothing  can  be  considered  as  conclusive, 
especially  in  tlie  new  States,  which  are  of  such  recent  establishment.  Of  the  effect 
produced  by  the  original  organization,  in  the  other  States,  and  by  the  changes  they 
have  severally  made  in  it,  different  reports  are  given  in  this  House,  on  the  represen- 
tation of  different  parties  in  each  State,  which  proves,  that  the  experiment  is  still  de- 
pending and  its  result  unknown.  I  have  the  utmost  confidence  in  the  integrity  of 
gentlemen  on  both  sides  of  the  question  in  this  House.  I  can  see  great  cause  for  a 
difference  of  opinion  between  them.  It  is  very  natural  that  those  on  the  one  side 
should  feel  a  strong  inchnation  to  give  the  greatest  possible  extent  to  the  rights  of 
every  citizen,  whatever  may  be  his  circumstances.  It  is  equally  natural  that  doubts 
should  be  felt  on  the  other  side,  when  the  experience  of  other  Governments  has  ad- 
monished them  of  danger. 

There  are  three  great  epochs  in  the  history  of  the  human  race  in  regard  to  Govern- 
ment! The  first  commenced  with  the  origin  of  the  ancient  Republics  and  terminated 
with  them.  The  second  commenced  at  the  overthrow  of  the  Roman  Empire  :  with 
the  Governments  that  were  estabhshed  on  its  ruins,  and  comprises  their  career  to  the 
present  time.  The  third  and  last,  commenced  with  the  discovery  of  this  hemisphere, 
the  emigration  of  our  ancestors,  to  this  section,  with  their  colonial  state,  the  revolu- 
tion which  followed,  and  the  Governments  founded  on  its  principles.  Each  of  these 
epochs,  is  marked  by  characters,  peculiar  to  itself.  The  Governments  of  the  two 
first,  warn  us  of  dangers  which  we  should  always  have  in  view.  Athens  and  Lace- 
daemon  are  the  best  specimens  among  the  Greeks — Carthage  and  Rome  are  the  only 
others  worth  considering.  And  first  let  us  look  at  the  state  of  Athens.  There  we 
find  the  people  e?i  masse  in  one  great  assembly,  possessed  of  the  power  of  the  Gov- 
ernment under  certain  modifications.  The  Government  and  sovereignty  were  united 
in  them;  but  the  people  could  originate  nothing.  A  Senate  must  propose  all  that 
was  done — and  that  Senate  consisted  of  the  wealthy.  The  Government  had  com- 
menced with  nobility  and  a  Prince,  and  so  it  continued  till  Solon  formed  the  Govern- 
ment and  instituted  a  Senate.  This  State  consisted,  therefore,  of  two  classes,  the  rich 
and  the  poor.  And  as  was  truly  observed  by  the  gentleman  from  Richmond  (Mr. 
Nicholas.)  it  lasted  but  ten  years,  when  it  was  overthrown  by  Pisistratus,  who  de- 
ceived the  people. 

Lacedeemon  was  under  two  Kings  and  a  Senate  who  held  their  places  for  life. 
This  Government  lasted  longer.  And  why The  lands  were  divided  equally ;  the 
people  fed  together,  Kings,  Senators  and  people  at  the  same  tables.  This  had  a  ten- 
dency to  connect  them  together ;  at  the  same  time  all  intercourse  with  foreign  na- 
tions was  prohibited.  The  bonds  were  close  ;  and  the  Government  was  never  over- 
thrown until  these  bonds  were  first  broken.  Commerce  introduced  war  and  acquired, 
plunder,  whereby  the  manners  of  the  people  were  changed.  But  would  any  body 
think  of  introducing  such  a  Government  here  ? 

The  same  remarks  apply,  in  substance,  to  Carthage  and  to  Rome.  My  idea  is,  that 
the  causes  which  overthrew  all  these  Governments  are  so  many  warning-s  for  us  to 
profit  by.  Of  the  peculiar  characteristics  of  the  second  epoch,  and  of  the  differences 
between  ours  and  both,  by  which  we  were  placed  on  more  advantageous  ground  than 
either,  I  cannot  now  enter  into. 

I  think  if  tlie  Right  of  Suffrage  should  be  so  extended  as  I  have  suggested,  I  can 
see  in  tliat  event  no  remaining  cause  of  variance.    All  who  wish  to  enjoy  it  can  pro- 


430 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


cure  it  by  a  few  months'  labour,  and  if  pubhc  virtue  and  the  general  abhorrence  of 
corruption  shall  prevail,  as  I  hope  and  believe  they  will,  we  shall  have  those  who  en- 
joy the  right,  so  nearly  on  a  level  with  those  who  do  not,  that  their  influence  will 
operate  to  tranquillize  the  whole  mass  of  society,  and  induce  the  poor  man  to  use  ex- 
ertions which  will  soon  obtain  for  him  the  right  of  voting. 

I  thought  it  my  duty  to  shew  to  the  Committee  how  far  I  wished  the  right  should 
be  extended,  and  where  we  ought  to  stop :  I  think  we  are  not  in  a  situation  to  go 
farther. 

Mr.  Randolph  said,  he  believed  he  was  not  singular  in  the  opinion  he  was  about  to 
express,  (though  he  might  be  the  only  member  of  the  Convention,  by  whom  it  was 
uttered,)  of  sincere  gratification,  on  finding  that  the  gentleman  who  had  just  taken 
his  seat,  was  in  favour  of  what  he  (Mr.  R.)  conceived  to  be  the  only  safe  ground,  in 
this  Commonwealth,  for  the  Right  of  Suffrage — he  meant  terra  firma  :  literally  ^rma: 
The  land.  The  moment,  said  he,  you  quit  the  land,  (I  mean  no  pun.)  that  moment 
you  will  find  yourselves  at  sea :  and  without  compass — without  land-mark  or  polar 
star.  I  said  that  I  considered  it  the  only  safe  foundation  ixn  this  Commonwealth. 
For  whom  are  we  to  make  a  Constitution.?  For  Holland  ?  For  Venice,  (where  there  is  ■ 
no  land .'')  For  a  country,  where  the  land  is  monopolized  by  a  few?  where  it  is  locked 
up  not  only  by  entails,  (I  do  not  mean  such  as  the  English  law  would  laugh  at,)  but 
by  marriage  settlements,  so  that  a  large  part  of  the  people,  are  necessarily  excluded 
from  the  possession  of  it :  but  for  a  people  emphatically  agricultural ;  where  land  is 
in  plenty,  and  where  it  is  accessible  to  every  exertion  of  honest  industry.  I  will  ven- 
ture to  say,  that  if  one-half  the  time  had  been  spent  in  honest  labour,  which  has  been 
spent  in  murmuring  and  getting  up  petitions,  that  the  signers  might  be  invested  with 
that  right,  all-important  at  muster-rolls,  at  cross-roads,  and  in  this  Convention,  yet 
not  worth  three  months'  labour,  the  right  would  have  been  possessed  and  exercised 
long  ago. 

I  will  not  go  into  the  discussion  ;  I  rose  merely  to  express  my  extreme  satisfaction, 
that  the  gentleman  who  has  just  taken  his  seat,  is  of  opinion,  that  we  ought  to  abide 
in  the  land. 

The  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  as  proposed  to  be  modified  by 
the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania,  is  one  which  I  do  not  exactly  understand.  So  far 
as  it  depends  on  a  landed  qualification,  (which  is  the  great  principle  of  our  present 
Government,)  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  appears  to  be  only 
an  equitable  modification  of  it,  and  to  retain  the  great  stable,  solid  qualification  of  land, 
which  I  view  as  the  only  sufficient  evidence  of  permanent,  common  interest  in,  and 
attachment  to,  the  Commonwealth, 

I  had  thought,  that  the  experience  of  this  Commonwealth,  and  of  the  United  States, 
had  read  us  such  lessons  on  the  subject  of  personal  security,  that  we  never  should 
think  of  leaving  real.  As  I  am  not  sufficiently  acquainted  with  the  measure  pro- 
posed by  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania,  I  respectfully  move  that  the  Committee 
do  now  rise. 

The  Committee  rose  accordingly,  and  the  House  adjourned. 


MONDAY,  November  23, 1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Armstrong  of  the  Presbyterian  Church. 

The  President  laid  before  the  Convention  the  following  letter  from  Mr.  Taliaferro  : 

RICHMOND,  23d  November,  1829. 
SIR,~A  domestic  occurrence,  which  threatens  the  most  serious  family  affhction, 
demands  my  immediate  presence  at  home.  In  obeying  this  call,  my  first  object  is  to 
provide,  in  the  most  eff*ectual  manner,  for  the  future  execution  of  the  important  trust 
with  which  I  am  now  charged ;  and  as  I  do  not,  under  existing  circumstances,  consi- 
der it  safe  and  proper,  that  the  District,  in  whose  delegation  I  am  associated,  should 
be  left  by  me  without  its  entire  representation,  my  design  is  to  resign.  I  therefore, 
beg  leave,  through  you,  to  announce  to  the  Convention,  that  my  right  to  a  seat  in 
that  Assembly  is  hereby  vacated :  My  colleagues  will  proceed  at  once  to  execute  the 
function  which  the  Act  of  Assembly,  in  such  a  case,  devolves  on  them.  May  I  be 
allowed  to  say,  that  very  many  considerations  combine  to  excite  in  me  feelings  of  deep 
regret  at  the  necessity  I  am  under  to  withdraw  myself  from  the  Convention — and  to 
add,  that  no  considerations,  certainly  none  personal  to  myself,  could  prevail  on  me  to 
do  so,  unless  the  power  existed  to  supply  my  place  without  possible  embarrassment 
to  my  constituents,  from  my  resignation.  I  cannot,  in  justice  to  my  feelings,  close 
this  communication,  and  not  express  the  cordial  hope,  that  the  result  of  the  work  in 


DEBATES   or   THE  CONVENTION. 


431 


which  you  are  engaged,  may  unite,  in  harmonious  accord,  the  affections  and  interests 
of  all  the  citizens  of  this  Commonwealth;  and  that,  with  sentiments,  Sir,  of  the  most 
profound  respect  for  you,  and  for  the  body  in  which  you  preside,  I  am  your  friend  and 
fellow-citizen, 

JOHN  TALIAFERRO. 

The  honorable  James  Monroe, 

President  of  the  Convention. 

The  letter  was  laid  upon  the  table. 

Mr.  Neale  then  rose  and  signified  to  the  Convention  that  the  remaining  Delegates 
from  the  District  to  which  Mr.  Taliaferro  belonged,  had  selected  as  a  suitable  person 
to  fill  his  place,  John  Coalter,  Esq.  of  Stafford  county,  (one  of  the  Judges  of  the  Court 
of  Appeals.) 

The  Convention  then  went  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  on  the  Constitution,  Mr, 
Powell  in  the  Chair,  and  the  question  being  on  the  amendment  proposed  by  Mr, 
Stanard  to  Mr.  Leigh's  amendment  of  the  third  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Commit- 
tee.   [See  Saturday's  proceedings.] 

Mr.  Monroe  then  addressed  the  Committee  in  nearly  the  following  terms  : 
Mr.  Chairman, — On  Saturday,  I  engaged  the  attention  of  the  Committee  for  a  few 
moments  in  explaining  my  views  with  regard  to  the  extension  of  the  Right  of  Suf- 
frage, but  as  it  was  near  the  hour  of  adjournment,  I  was  unwilhng  to  prolong  my  re- 
marks. There  are  some  ideas  which  I  did  not  then  state,  and  which  1  beg  leave  now 
to  explain.  I  stated  it  to  be  my  view,  that  the  Right  of  Suffrage  should  be  confined 
so  as  in  some  form  to  be  connected  with  the  soil — it  was  my  idea  that  those  who  en- 
joyed it  ought  to  possess  some  interest  in  society,  and  to  have  a  home  :  at  the  same 
time  I  wislied  to  see  the  interest  limited  as  much  as  possible,  and  made  as  moderate 
as  prudence  would  allow.  My  reasons  for  desiring  that  the  elective  franchise  should 
be  connected  with  the  soil,  were  then  stated,  and  need  not  now  be  repeated.  My 
reasons  for  wishing  to  make  that  interest  as  moderate  as  practicable,  I  wish  now  more 
fully  to  explain. 

I  observed,  that  in  fixing  a  Constitution  for  the  State,  either  by  the  amendment  of 
the  old  one  or  the  adoption  of  a  new,  we  ought  to  profit  by  the  examples  of  other  Go- 
vernments, and  particularly  of  the  ancient  Republics,  as  furnishing  us  with  a  warn- 
ing of  the  dangers  to  which  free  Governments  are  exposed,  but  that  none  of  them 
could  present  to  us  such  an  example  as  we  ought  to  follow  :  but  as  a  warning,  it  may 
be  very  profitable  that  we  should  keep  them  in  view.  Here  the  sovereignty  resides 
in  the  people  :  ours  may  truly  be  called  a  system  of  self-government :  and  my  object 
is,  to  preserve  it  in  their  hands  forever.  It  is  with  that  view,  I  would  look  at  the 
dangers  to  which  it  is  exposed. 

I  remarked  that  there  were  three  great  epochs  in  history,  as  it  respected  Govern- 
ment. The  first  of  them  commenced  with  the  ancient  Republics,  and  ended  with 
their  overthrow.  The  second,  with  the  overthrow  of  the  Roman  Empire,  and  the 
establishment  of  those  Governments  which  were  erected  on  its  ruins.  The  third  and 
last  commenced  with  the  discovery  of  this  liemisphere:  the  emigration  to  it  by  our 
ancestors,  the  Governments  which  were  formed  in  our  colonial  state,  and  after  our 
revolutionary  struggle,  with  the  Governments  which  were  formed  on  the  principles 
of  the  revolution.  I  gave  an  illustration  of  this  remark,  so  far  as  relates  to  the  first 
period,  viz :  during  the  continuance  of  the  ancient  Republics. 

What  are  the  characteristic  features  of  those  Governments,  and  what  the  warning  they 
hold  out  to  us  ?  The  people  who  settled  on  the  ruins  of  the  Roman  Empire  were  rude 
in  their  condition  and  character  :  their  Governments  were  monarchical,  accompanied 
with  an  order  of  nobility.  In  all  the  great  powers,  with  the  exception  of  England, 
the  Government  was  despotic;  and  in  England  herself,  hberty  had,  through  a  long 
space,  no  solid  basis  on  which  to  rest.  The  effort  there  was  to  avoid  despotism ;  and 
the  most  that  the  friends  of  liberty  aspired  to,  and  contended  for,  was  to  rescue  the 
people  from  slavery,  and  acquire  for  them  some  hold  in  the  system.  A  representa- 
tion in  one  branch  of  the  Legislature  was  all  that  they  sought,  and  all  that  they  ob- 
tained. I  will  not  go  into  further  details.  From  such  a  Government,  what  example 
is  afforded,  which  we  ought  to  imitate  ?  It  was  during  this  struggle  that  our  ances- 
tors fled  from  persecution — and  settled  on  this  Continent,  under  charters  from  the 
Crown,  which  charters  formed  the  connecting  link  between  the  Colonies  and  the  pa- 
rent country.  In  all  these  Colonial  Governments,  the  power  was  in  the  people:  the 
Governor  was  the  agent  of  the  King.  His  powers  were  limited.  Every  proposition 
originated  with  the  people — there  was  a  negative  in  the  Crown.  This  was  the  only 
cheek  upon  their  authority.  There  was  no  nobility  or  prince.  The  revolution  trans- 
ferred the  whole  power  to  the  people.  There  were  no  privileged  orders ;  nor  was  the 
Government  hereditary.  It  consisted  of  a  House  of  Burgesses,  a  Council,  and  a  Go- 
vernor. Every  proposition  originated  %vith  the  people,  under  our  Colonial  Govern- 
ment; and,  therefore,  liberal  and  free  principles  were  inculcated,  which  were  made 


432 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


perfect  by  our  revolution.  The  whole  Government,  in  all  its  branches,  is  now  that 
of  the  people  :  every  proposition  may  be  said  to  originate  from  them,  for,  when  checks 
on  the  most  popular  branch  are  provided,  as  by  the  Senate,  for  example,  on  the  House 
of  Delegates,  they  are  formed  by  representatives  of  the  people,  and  intended  to  give 
greater  stability  and  permanence  to  their  Government.  Such  a  condition,  theretore, 
as  the  rich  and  poor,  and  such  a  struggle  between  them,  as  overthrew  the  Govern- 
ment of  Athens,  and  prostrated  the  power  of  the  people,  did  not  and  does  not  exist 
here  in  the  slightest  degree.  In  the  ancient  Republics,  and  especially  in  that  of 
Athens,  the  people  possessed  the  whole  power :  the  sovereignty  and  the  Government 
were  united  in  them:  with  us  it  is  different.  The  sovereignty  is  in  the  people, 
but  the  exercise  of  Government  is  in  their  representatives.  Every  voter  partakes  a 
share  of  the  sovereignty ;  and  thus  the  Right  of  Suffrage  is  the  basis  of  our  system  of 
Government.  And  hence  the  necessity  tor  caution  how  we  extend  the  right  to  such 
as  have  no  permanent  interest  in  the  community.  When  we  see  that  the  representa- 
tives are  so  numerous,  and  that  the  voters  constitute  so  great  a  mass,  we  have  the  cer- 
tainty that  they  never  can  pass  laws  in  favor  of  one  class  of  society  to  the  injury  of 
another  class. 

Many  reasons  urge  us  in  looking  to  self-government,  to  cause  this  Right  of  Suf- 
frage to  draw  as  near  as  possible  every  class  in  society  together.  But  it  should  be 
connected  with  an  interest  in  the  soil.  I  wish  to  see  no  distinction,  order,  nor  any 
thing  like  rank  introduced  amongst  us.  Let  all  be  in  the  hands  of  the  people.  Let  a 
majority  rule.  The  laws  of  primogeniture  and  of  entail  are  gone,  and  what  is  the 
tendency  of  such  a  state  of  things?  The  father  brings  up  his  sons,  in  his  own  princi- 
ples and  habits,  and  when  he  dies  he  divides  his  estate  among  them ;  or  if  he  dies  in- 
testate, the  law  of  descents  comes  in  and  divides  it  for  him.  His  sons  live  without 
labour,  and  thus  in  two  or  three  generations  the  largest  estates  become  subdivided 
until  the  owners  become  reduced  into  one  mass;  and  the  whole  aspect  of  society  be- 
comes nearly  the  same.  Does  not  this  present  a  reason  why  the  Right  of  Suttrage 
should  be  connected  in  some  degree  with  the  soil But  let  the  test  be  made  as  mo- 
derate as  it  can  be.  Here  we  see  none  of  those  causes  which  overthrew  the  ancient 
Republics.  The  bases  of  our  society  are  different  from  theirs.  Our  interests  are  more 
combined.  The  mass  of  the  people  are  more  connected  with  each  other.  Here  are 
aio  great  divisions  of  rich  and  poor  existing  distinct  from  each  other,  and  engaged  in 
perpetual  conflicts.  For  these  reasons,  I  should  like  to  see  the  Right  of  Suffrage 
connected  with  the  soil,  but  to  an  extent  as  moderate  as  circumstances  will  admit. 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  Mr.  Stanard's  amendment,  and  decided  in  the  ne- 
gative— Ayes  41,  Noes  44. 

(Messrs.  Madison,  Monroe,  and  Marshall,  voted  in  the  affirmative.) 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  Mr.  Leigh's  amendment,  and  decided  in  the  nega- 
tive— Ayes  37,  Noes  51. 

Aye — Mr.  Monroe.    Noes — Messrs.  Madison  and  Marshall. 

Mr.  Cooke  then  offered  the  following  amendment : 

Strike  out  from  the  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  all  after  the  words 

Resolved,  that"  and  insert:  "the  election  of  all  Executive,  Legislative,  or  other 
functionaries,  in  this  Commonwealth,  whose  election  shall  be  submitted  directly 
to  the  people,  by  the  provisions  of  any  new  Constitution,  or  amendment  of  the  old, 
to  be  framed  by  the  Convention  now  assembled,  shall  be  : 

"  All  white  male  citizens  of  the  United  States,  of  the  age  of  twenty-one  years,  or 
upwards,  and  resident  in  the  county,  city,  borough  or  other  electoral  district,  where 
they  shall  respectively  offer  to  vote,  at  the  time  of  any  election ;  except 

"  That  citizens  of  the  United  States,  born  in  the  United  States,  but  without  the 
limits  of  the  Commonwealth,  shall  not  enjoy  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  unless  they  shall 
have  resided  therein  for  years  immediately  preceding  the  election  at  which 

they  shall  respectively  offer  to  vote  ;  and  immediately  preceding  such  elec- 

tion in  the  county,  city,  borough  or  other  electoral  district,  where  they  shall  respec- 
tively offer  to  vote  :  the  mode  of  proving  such  residence  to  be  prescribed  by  law  : 

"  That  naturalized  citizens  of  the  United  States,  shall  not  enjoy  the  right  until,  in 
addition  to  the  qualification  of  residence  required  by  the  next  preceding  clause,  they 
shall  have  respectively  acquired  by  marriage,  by  descent  or  purchase,  a  freehold  estate 
in  land  of  the  a^essed  value  of  dollars,  situated  within  the  Commonwealth, 

(the  title  to  which  shall  have  been  evidenced  by  a  recorded  deed,  or  will,  and  shall  have 
been  in  possession  of  the  same  for  the  space  of  before  any  election  at  which 

they  shall  respectively  offer  to  vote  ;  the  mode  of  proving  the  previous  residence  re- 
quired by  this  clause  to  be  prescribed  by  law.) 

"  That  no  person  shall  exercise  the  Right  of  Suffrage  at  any  election  unless  he  shall 
have  paid  a  State,  county,  or  corporation  tax,  imposed  on  him  by  law,  and  legally  de- 
manded of  him,  during  the  two  years  immediately  preceding  such  election  :  the  mode 
of  proving  or  disproving  such  payment,  if  disputed,  to  be  prescribed  by  law. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  COXVENTIOX. 


433 


**  That  no  person  convicted  of  any  infamous  offence,  shall,  at  any  election  thereafter, 
enjoy  or  exercise  tiie  Right  of  Sutfrage;  tiie  enumeration  of  such  offences  to  be  made 
by  law. 

Tliat  the  Ricrht  of  Suffrage  shall  not  be  enjoyed  or  exercised,  by  any  pauper — (the 
definition  of  the  term  pauper  to  be  made  by  law  :) 

"  By  any  person  who  shall  have  been  declared,  by  a  lawful  tribunal,  to  be  of  unsound 
mind,  daring  the  continuance  of  such  disability;  or, 

"  By  any  non-commissioned  ofHcer,  or  private  soldier,  seaman  or  marine,  in  the  regu- 
lar service  of  the  United  States,  or  of  this  Commonwealth."' 

(The  preceding  is  the  shape  which  Mr.  Cooke's  proposition  assmned,  after  being 
modified  by  subsequent  amendments.) 

Mr.  Cooke  said,  that  the  Convention  was  now  in  the  eighth  week  of  its  session,  and 
had  decided  almost  notliing.  He  added,  that  notwithstanding  the  ability  with  which 
the  various  subjects  had  been  discussed,  it  v.-as  quite  apparent  that  the  Committee  was 
absolutely  surfeited  with  discussion  and  debate.  It  would  ill  become  liim,  under  such 
circuuistances.  to  trespass  on  the  time  and  patience  of  the  Committee,  by  what  was 
commonly  called  a  "  set  speech."  Nothing  was  fai-ther  from  his  purpose.  Indeed, 
if  the  views  comprehended  in  the  amendment  he  had  just  oftered  on  the  subject  of 
Suffrage,  had  been  presented  by  any  other  member,  he  should  have  contented  him- 
self, after  a  discussion  so  protracted,  with  giving  a  silent  vote  in  their  support. 

Under  existing  circumstances,  he  deemed  it  his  duty  to  explain  and  support  tliose 
views,  but  would  endeavor  to  do  it  with  as  much  brevity  as  possible.  He  hoped  it 
would  not  be  considered  a  departure  from  this  plan  of  brevity,  to  make  a  few  remarks 
on  the  two  amendments  yesterday  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania, 
(Mr.  Stanard,)  as  he  should  in  explainmg  the  reasons  which  induced  him  to  vote 
against  both  of  the  amendments  alluded  to,  present  at  the  same  time  the  gromids  of 
his  preference  for  those  which  he  had  had  the  honour  himself  to  submit. 

The  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania  had  proposed  to  extend  the  Right  of  Suffrage  to 

1st.  '•  Every  such  citizen  as  shall  be  a  lessee  of  a  tenement  of  the  yearly  value  of 
dollars,  for  a  term  of  or  more  years,  by  a  deed  duly  recorded 

three  months  before  the  time  he  may  offer  to  vote,  and  of  ichic/i  lease  at  least 
years  s/uill  be  unexpired  at  the  time  he  ojj'ers  to  zote.'^  And 

2d.  Every  such  citizen  as  shall,  witliin  one  3'ear  before  he  may  offer  to  vote,  have 
a  tax  or  taxes  to  the  amount  of  assessed  on  property,  whether  real  or  per- 

sonal, owned  by  him,  and  shall  have  actually  paid  such  tax  or  taxes  at  least  three 
months  before  he  shall  so  offer  to  vote.'" 

Now,  Sir,  said  Mr.  C,  I  am  opposed  to  both  of  these  modifications  of  the  Right  of 
Suffrage,  because  of  the  fluctuating  and  mutable  character  of  the  qualification  they 
prescribe.  I  am  opposed  to  the  first,  because  it  confers  the  right  on  a  lessee  in  1S21;), 
and  deprives  him  of  it  in  1830.  In  1829,  his  lease  has  two  years  to  run,  and  he  is  a 
voter:  he  enjoys  a  share  in  the  soterdgntij  of  tlie  country:  in  1830,  it  has  but  one  year 
to  run,  and  he  is  disfranchised,  and  yet  he  is  the  same  man — possesses  the  same  moral 
and  intellectual  qualities — the  same  love  of  country — the  same  stake  in  the  commu- 
nity— the  same  evidence  of  permanent  common  interest  with,  and  attachment  to, 
the  communit}^" — in  short,  the  same  fitness  to  exercise  the  Right  of  Suffrage  as  in 
the  preceding  year.  He  has  done  no  act  to  change  his  relation  to  the  cominunity  in 
any  respect,  and  yet  he  finds  himself  degraded  from  the  rank  of  one  of  tlie  sovereigns 
of  the  country,  and  a  member  of  a  disfranchised  class.  Sir,  it  ought  to  be  borne  in 
mind,  that  in  forming  a  Constitution  for  the  people  of  Virginia,  we  are  not  dealing 
with  mere  machines — with  those  '-men  of  wood  and  brass  and  iron,"  to  which  the 
gentleman  from  Brooke  (Mr.  Campbell)  the  other  day  so  forcibly  alluded ;  but  with 
sentient  beings,  whose  feelings  must  be  consulted  and  respected.  And  in  this  view 
I  would  ask,  whether  the  free  and  high-spirited  people  of  ^'irginia  would  submit,  with 
patience,  to  a  regulation  sd  arbitrary  and  capricious  in  its  character!  Would  not  ita 
enforcement  produce  disaffection,  if  not  turmoil  and  confusion,  in  the  class  of  per- 
sons subjected  to  its  operation.^  I  apprehend  that  such  consequences  would  inevita- 
bly flow  from  the  enforcement  of  a  rule  not  only  fluctuating,  but  in  itself  unjust  and 
arbitrary. 

The  same  principle  of  mutability  pervades  and  vitiates  the  other  qualification  pro- 
posed by  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania.  He  proposes  that  the  qualification  shall 
consist  in  the  payment  of  a  certain  sum  of  money  to  the  Government,  in  the  shape  of 
an  assessed  tax  on  property,  real  or  personal,  owned  by  the  voter,  and  that  the  right 
to  vote  shall  cease  when  the  tax  shall  be  either  abolished  or  reduced  in  amount  below 
that  certain  and  specified  sum.  There  are,  incident  to  this  qualification,  tw^o  principles 
©f  mutability  or  destruction,  one  extrinsic,  the  other  essential  and  inherent.  Although 
recommended  as  a  part  of  the  fundamental  laic  of  the  country,  which  of  course  should 
not  be  changeable  by  ordinary  legislation,  it  is  liable  to  be  destroyed,  at  any  moment, 
by  the  whim,  or  caprice,  or  settled  policy,  if  you  please,  of  the  Legislative  bodies. 
And  this  too,'  on  the  colourable  and  popuiai-  pretext  of  diniinisliing  the  burthens  of 

55 


434 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION, 


the  Government,  by  the  abolition  or  reduction  of  the  taxes.  You  put  the  tax,  for  ex- 
ample, the  payment  of  whicli  is  to  confer  the  right  of  voting,  at  twelve  and  one-half 
cents,  and  at  the  time  of  the  adoption  of  the  Constitution  of  which  this  provision  forms 
a  part,  there  happens  to  be  a  tax  on  horses  of  twelve  and  one  half  cents  a  head.  A 
Legislature  is  chosen,  in  w^hich  there  is  found  a  majority  of  members,  who  honestly 
and  deliberately  think,  that  the  poorer  classes  of  the  people  cannot  safely  be  entrusted 
with  a  participation  in  political  power — that  the  good  order,  and  well-being  of  the 
community,  require  them  to  be  disfranchised,  A  Legislature  composed  of  such  ma- 
terials, has  only  to  abolish  the  tax  on  horses,  and  it  disfranchises  at  once  all  those 
poorer  citizens,  who  have  beasts  of  the  plough,  but  neither  land  nor  slaves.  And 
this,  too,  as  I  said  before,  on  the  popular  pretext  of  diminishing  the  burthens  of  Govern- 
ment. Nay,  Sir,  the  tax  on  horses,  may  become,  in  the  course  of  events,  wholly  un- 
necessary; for,  one  of  the  great  objects  of  our  assembling  here,  is  to  reduce  the  ex- 
penses of  Government,  and  dispense  with  as  many  taxes  as  possible.  But  by  adopt- 
ing the  resolution  in  question,  you  would  put  it  out  of  the  power  of  the  Government 
to  perform  one  of  the  most  beneficent  functions  of  a  Government,  the  diminution  of 
the  burthens  of  the  people,  without,  by  the  same  act,  disfranchising  a  considerable 
part  of  them.  Can  a  Constitutional  provision,  which  involves  such  consequences, 
recommend  itself  to  the  good  sense  of  the  people  of  Virginia? 

But  I  have  said  that  there  is,  in  the  qualification  which  I  am  now  considering,  a 
principle  of  mutability  essential  and  inherent.  I  alluded  to  the  provision  which  makes 
the  payment  of  a  certain  fixed  and  unchangeable  sum  of  money,  in  the  shape  of  taxes, 
the  qualification  of  the  voter.  Now,  Sir,  it  appears  to  me,  that  few  things  are  more 
unsteady  in  their  value  than  money,  and  that  a  worse  standard  could  scarcely  be  found, 
by  which  to  measure  and  apportion  political  power. 

If  we  look  back  into  the  history  of  other  ages,  and  nations,  we  shall  find  that,  in 
England,  the  value  of  silver  decreased  between  1570  and  1640,  seventy-five  per  cen- 
tum. So  that  forty  shillings,  in  1640,  would  command  no  more  labour,  would  pur- 
chase no  more  of  the  necessaries  of  life,  than  ten  shillings  in  1570. 

We  shall  find  that  the  perpetual  rents,  reserved  in  money  some  centuries  ago,  have 
become,  by  reason  of  its  diminished  value,  a  mere  nominal  incumbrance  on  the  land 
in  the  hands  of  the  tenant,  while  those  retained  in  corn,  have  preserved  their  proper 
proportion  to  the  fee  simple  value  of  the  land  :  That  in  the  same  manner  the  mcdvs, 
or  commutation  of  tythes  in  kind  for  a  fixed  sum  of  money,  payable  annually,  estab- 
lished by  contracts,  made  some  centuries  ago,  by  the  church,  and  the  proprietors  of 
particular  tracts  of  land  in  England,  has  become  a  mere  nominal  incumbrance  on  land 
eo  situated. 

But  we  need  not  resort,  for  instruction,  to  the  history  of  remote  ages  or  distant  na- 
tions. We  have  seen,  in  our  own  times,  and  in  our  own  country,  a  still  more  forcible 
illustration  of  the  unsteadiness  and  mutability  of  that  standard  by  which  it  is  now 
proposed  to  measure  political  power,  and  distribute  it  among  the  people.  Between 
the  year  1812  and  the  year  1817  the  dollar  depreciated,  in  Virginia,  sixty-six  per  cent, 
so  that  a  dollar  would  command  in  1817  no  more  labour  and  no  more  of  the  necessa- 
ries of  life  than  thirty-three  cents  would  command  in  1812.  But  a  still  more  striking 
illustration  is  seen  in  the  fact,  that  since  1817  the  dollar  has  risen  in  value  two  hun- 
dred per  cent. — so  that  thirty-three  cents,  at  present,  will  command  as  much  labour, 
and  as  great  a  quantity  of  the  necessaries  of  life,  as  one  hundred  would  have  com- 
manded or  purchased  in  1817. 

The  scheme  of  qualifications  which  I  have  had  the  honour  to  submit,  possesses  at 
least,  the  negative  merit  of  being  free  from  these  objectionable  features.  It  will  be 
perceived  that  the  proposed  amendment  of,  or  substitute  for,  the  resolution  of  the 
Select  Committee,  is  founded  on  the  assumption  or  postulate  that  all  the  free  white 
male  citizens  in  the  Commonwealth  of  mature  age,  have,  prima,  facie,  a  right  to  a 
voice  in  the  Government.  I  shall  not  repeat  the  arguments  by  which  this  proposition 
has  been  sustained,  in  the  discussions  which  have  taken  place  on  an  analagous  sub- 
ject. I  hope  I  may  be  allowed  to  express  the  opinion  that  those  arguments  have  not 
been  answered,  and  the  belief  that  they  are  unanswerable. 

But  those  who  believe  in  the  original  universality  of  this  right,  insist,  at  the  same 
time,  for  reasons  which  have  been  given  again  and  again,  that  the  majority  of  the  male 
adults,  or  members  of  the  community,  have  a  right  to  adopt  and  enforce  a  fundamental 
law,  by  which  certain  classes  or  descriptions  of  persons  shall  be  excluded  from  the 
exercise  of  the  right.  That  the  majority  have  a  right  to  say  that  the  good  order,  well- 
being  and  safety  of  the  community,  require  such  exclusion.  In  conformity  with  this 
view  of  the  subject,  I  have  submitted  to  the  Committee,  a  series  of  disqualifications, 
to  which  I  now  beg  leave,  with  the  utmost  brevity,  to  call  its  attention. 

The  first  disqualification  includes  all  citizens  born  in  the  United  States,  but  without 
the  limits  of  the  Commonwealth,  until  they  shall  have  manifested,  by  a  residence  of 
some  duration,  an  intention  to  reside  permanently  among  us;  until  they  shall  have 
afforded  by  residence  at  least,  evidence  of  "  permanent  common  interest  with,  and 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


435 


attachment  to,  the  community."  This  disquaUfication  attaches  great,  and  I  think  de- 
served iniportance,  to  the  feehng  of  love  for  the  natal  soil.  I  shall  not  attempt,  Sir, 
to  prove  to  this  Assembly,  that  men  love  their  country. 

The  second  disquahfication  is  but  another  exempiification  of  the  same  principle.  It 
supposes  that  foreigners,  though  naturalized,  want  the  attachmciit  of  the  heart  which  is 
felt  by  the  natives  of  the  country,  and  should  be  required  to  bind  themselves  to  the 
community  by  the  acquisition  of  land — by  the  factitious  tie  of  interest^  before  they 
shall  be  admitted  to  a  share  of  the  sovereign  power. 

Passing  by  the  disqualification  of  persons  convicted  of  infamous  offences,  because 
they  have  shewn  by  their  conduct,  that  they  are  not  merely  indifferent,  but  hostile  to 
the  community  in  which  they  live — of  persons  of  unsound  mind,  because  of  their  in- 
capacity to  exercise  the  right — of  paupers,  because  of  their  dependent  condition,  and 
consequent  want  of  free  agency,  and  of  their  want  of  interest  in  the  well-being  of  a 
community  in  which  they  have  no  stake,  I  ask  the  attention  of  the  Committee  to  the 
only  one  which  remains. 

It  is  that  which  denies  the  Right  of  Suffrage  to  those  who  neglect  or  refuse  to  pay 
to  the  Government  or  the  local  authorities,  the  taxes  and  levies  imposed  on  them  by 
law.  I  confess,  Sir,  that  I  attach  to  this  disqualification,  great  practical  importance. 
I  need  not  tell  those  whom  I  address,  that  there  are  many  citizens  in  this  Common- 
wealth, and  I  fear,  not  a  few  freeholders,  who  are  regularly  returned  delinquent  by 
the  collecting  officers,  and  whose  delinquency  arises  not  so  much  from  their  want  of 
ability  to  pay,  as  from  their  utter  worthlessness.  Where  the  public  contributions  are 
so  light  and  trifling  in  amount  as  those  demanded  by  our  Government,  it  may  be 
eafely  assumed  as  a  ger>ieral  principle,  that  those  who  do  not  pay  them,  are  idle  and 
worthless.  And,  in  fact,  the  class  of  delinquents  includes  a  great  proportion  of  the 
habitual  drunkards  and  idle  vagabonds  who  are  a  dead  weight,  and  worse  than  a  dead 
weight,  on  the  country  which  supports  them.  The  practical  effect  of  this  disqualifica- 
tion, then,  is  to  deny  political  power  to  those  who  constitute,  in  fact,  "  the  rabble" 
of  this  and  every  country. 

In  this  exposition  of  my  views,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  been  studiously  brief ;  and 
I  regret  that  a  sense  of  duty  has  compelled  me  to  trespass,  even  as  long  as  I  have, 
on  the  valuable  time  of  the  Committee. 

Mr.  p.  p.  Barbour  then  addressed  the  Committee  in  nearly  the  following  terms: 

I  shall  certainly  emulate  the  example  set  me  by  the  gentleman  from  Frederick 
(Mr.  Cooke)  in  brevity  at  least.  I  have  no  idea  of  going  into  any  set  speech ;  I  am 
satisfied  the  temper  of  the  Committee  is  not  nov/  such  as  to  endure  it,  if  it  has  been  at 
any  time.  As  I  am  most  decidedly  opposed  to  the  whole  scheme,  I  shall  vote  under 
an  utterly  different  view  of  it  from  tliat  which  has  been  taken  by  the  gentleman  ;  and 
since  he  has  seen  proper  to  impute  very  grave  charges  to  those  who  insist  that  the 
Right  of  Suffrage  shall  be  connected  with  the  soil,  I  shall  present  to  the  Committee, 
and  to  the  public,  two  or  three  of  the  reasons  which  influence  the  vote  I  shall  give. 

I  throw  out,  in  the  m.ean  while,  as  a  mere  suggestion  to  the  gentleman  from  Frede- 
rick, the  enquiry,  whether  his  resolutions  will  not  conflict  with  some  of  the  provisions 
in  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States  ?  I  do  not  say  that  I  have  formed  any  clear 
opinion  as  to  this  bearing  of  tlie  subject,  but  I  throw  out  the  enquiry,  as  one  that  may 
be  worthy  of  consideration.  One  of  the  articles  of  the  Constitution  declares,  "  that 
the  citizens  of  each  State  shall  be  entitled  to  all  privileges  and  immunities  of  citizens 
in  the  several  States." 

How  far  the  distinction  which  the  gentleman  proposes  to  make  between  the  rights 
of  citizens  of  Virginia  and  those  of  the  citizens  of  sister  Slates,  consists  with  the  ob- 
servance of  this  Constitutional  principle,  presents  a  subject  for  enquiry :  but  to  the 
question  before  us. 

We  have  been  engaged  in  discussing  the  enquiry,  in  what  proportion  power  shall 
be  divided,  among  the  body  politic?  and  the  question  now  before  us  is,  of  whom  does 
this  body  politic  consist?  who  constitute  the  body  politic  of  the  State  of  Virginia?  It 
is  hardly  necessary  to  enter  on  the  enquiry  now  as  to  the  power  of  this  body  to  declare, 
who  shall,  and  who  shall  not,  exercise  the  Right  of  Suffrage.  All  agree  that  we  pos- 
sess such  power,  in  its  utmost  latitude ;  the  only  limitation  upon  its  exercise  is  the  con- 
sideration, what  is  just?  what  is  proper? 

My  purpose  is  to  put,  if  possible,  the  vessel  of  State  at  a  sure  anchorage ;  such  as 
shall  enable  her  to  outride  the  political  storms,  which  all  history  combines  to  prove, 
will  ever  continue  to  agitate  the  great  ocean  of  human  affairs.  My  purpose  is  to  lay 
the  foundations  of  the  Government  on  a  permanent  basis,  such  as  shall  endure  the 
shocks  of  time.  T  wish  to  sanction  no  unjust  exclusion  of  any  portion  of  the  commu- 
nity. I  seek  to  divide  the  State  into  no  castes  or  classes.  God  forbid  !  Such  a  desitrn 
was  utterly  incompatible  with  the  spirit  of  the  Constitution:  but  I  want  to  establish 
sound  and  equitable  criteria  to  determine  who  shall,  and  who  shall  not,  enjoy  the  elec- 
tive franchise,  and  thereby  exercise  a  control  in  the  Government. 

Is  not  some  landed  qualification  the  best  surety  for  such  a  permanent  interest  in  the 
community  as  justly  entitles  any  citizen  to  the  exercise  of  this  right  ?    In  answer  to 


436 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


this  inquiry,  I  might  derive  an  argument  from  the  gentleman  from  Frederick  himself : 
for,  when  he  comes  to  provide  for  the  exercise  of  the  right  by  ahens,  he  himself  pro- 
poses to  exact  a  landed  qualification,  as  the  only  adequate  security.  He  then  thinks 
the  soil  presents  the  only  solid  foundation  :  that  a  right  in  the  soil  presents  the  best 
and  surest  evidence  of  a  permanent  common  interest  with,  and  attachment  to,  the 
community,  none  will  dispute.  Other  things  may  indicate  an  interest  in  the  commu- 
nity, but  whether  they  indicate  that  degree  of  permanency  in  that  interest  which  is 
required  by  the  Bill  of  Rights,  may  well  admit  of  dispute.  The  distinction  between 
any  and  every  other  qualification,  and  that  derived  from  an  interest  in  the  soil,  is  as 
broad  as  the  Ecliptic.  As  to  all  other  property,  it  is  transient  and  perishable  in  its 
nature  :  it  has  no  local  habitation,  and  scarce  a  name.  It  is  with  us  to-day,  it  is  with 
another  to-morrow.  It  pertains  not  to  one  person,  or  to  one  State,  but  may  be  said 
to  belong  to  the  Universe  at  large.  Does  the  immense  personal  wealth  of  Stephen 
Girard  belong  to  the  State  of  Pennsylvania.?  No,  Sir.  It  may  be  at  New  York  to- 
day, and  at  Charleston  to-morrow.  Permanence  is  an  attribute  which  has  nothing 
to  do  with  personal  property.  It  belongs  to  landed  property  alone.  Landed  estate 
has  another  advantage  :  it  is  visible,  tangible,  immovable  ;  the  man  who  owns  personal 
property  may  be  benefitted  or  injured  by  the  operations  of  your  Government,  but  the 
man  who  owns  the  soil,  must  be  benefitted  or  injured  by  them.  If  called  to  regulate 
the  affairs  of  your  household  (and  the  principles  of  right  reason  which  apply  to  a 
household,  apply  in  their  degree  to  the  body  politic.)  would  you  invite  those  who  sojourn 
upon  your  estate  for  a  week  or  a  month,  or  would  you  ask  such  as  were  members  of 
your  household,  and  were  personally  connected  with  the  interests  of  your  farm  While 
I  am  disposed,  like  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  (Mr.  Monroe.)  to  adhere  to  the  soil, 
I  am  willing  to  go  to  every  i-easonable  length  in  extending  the  Right  of  Suffrage  un- 
der that  sole  modification.  I  would  not  confine  it  to  freeholders  alone :  I  would  go 
to  the  reversioner,  and  to  the  lessee:  all  I  ask  is  for  some  indication  from  an  interest 
in  the  soil,  that  the  voter  has  some  sort  of  permanent  interest  in  the  well-being  and 
the  fortunes  of  the  Commonwealth. 

The  gentleman  from  Frederick  objects  to  admit  the  lessee  on  the  ground  that  his 
lease  is  to  be  valued,  and  that  that  value  is  mutable. 

[Here  Mr.  Cooke  rose  to  explain.  He  said  the  gentleman  from  Orange  had  slightly 
misapprehended  his  meaning.  He  had  objected  to  the  clause  respecting  the  lessee, 
because  it  gave  the  Right  of  Suffrage  to  such  lessee  so  long  as  liis  lease  had  yet  a  cer- 
tain time  to  run,  and  then  took  it  away  from  him,  when  the  period  for  which  he  held 
it  approached  within  a  certain  distance  of  its  termination.  If  it  was  just  to  confer  the 
Right  of  Suffrage  on  the  ground  of  the  lease,  it  certainly  was  unjufit  to  take  it  away 
from  the  lessee  until  the  lease  was  expired.] 

Mi.  Barbour  replied,  that  he  had  understood  that  to  be  one  ground  of  the  gentle- 
man's objection,  and  he  would  now  proceed  to  answer  it.  Did  not  the  gentleman 
perceive  that  his  argument  turned  in  a  circle  .?  that  it  immediately  recoiled  upon  him  ? 
Did  he  not  see  that  the  argument  in  its  utmost  extent  might  be  turned  against  himself.'* 
Did  not  the  gentleman  himself  lay  down  requirements  which  extended  retrospectively 
from  the  period  of  voting  ?  and  according  to  which  a  man  who  voted  last  year,  would 
be  deprived  of  the  right  of  voting  this.?  and  so  the  Right  of  Suffrage  would  be  as  un- 
settled as  a  pendulum.?  Let  him  look  at  his  own  resolutions;  certain  classes  of  per- 
sons must  have  dwelt  for  two  years  within  the  county  before  they  were  admitted  to 
vote:  so,  that  one  year  before  the  election  they  would  lose  that  privilege.  In  other 
parts  of  the  resolutions,  voters  were  required  to  have  paid  taxes  for  a  certain  time  pre- 
vious to  voting  :  the  same  objection  applied  in  that  case.  Take  the  case  of  the  free- 
holder:  while  he  continued  to  own  the  land,  he  was  permitted  to  vote,  but  the  mo- 
ment it  passed  out  of  his  possession,  the  privilege  went  with  it.  The  same  objection 
applied  to  the  case  of  the  minor,  who  could  vote  this  year,  though  he  could  not  last. 
The  gentleman  must  certainly  abandon  this  argument. 

But,  I  am  told  that  to  insist  upon  connecting  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  with  an  inter- 
est in  the  soil,  is  aristocracy  ;  rank  aristocracy.  Sir,  this  is  a  grave  charge,  and  I  shall 
certainly  be  the  last  to  advocate  any  measure,  against  which  such  a  charge  will  justly 
lie.  The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  presented  to  the  Convention,  some  happy  il- 
lustrations on  this  term  aristocracy.  According  to  the  idea  he  so  forcibly  illustrated, 
if  you  are  about  to  make  an  aristocracy,  you  must  create  a  certain  class  in  the  com- 
mvmity,  distinguished  from  the  rest  by  privileges  and  immunities,  which  are  not 
only  peculiar  to  them,  but  which  continue  to  be  theirs,  under  all  changes  of  circum- 
stances :  which  adhere  to  their  persons  and  cannot  be  separated  from  thern.  Thus,  the 
House  of  Lords  in  Great  Britain,  are  a  class  of  persons  separate  and  distinct  from  all 
other  subjects,  with  privileges,  which  they  possess  by  hereditary  descent,  except  a 
few,  who",  from  time  to  time  are  added  to  the  class  by  patent  from  the  Crown.  The 
aristocracy  of  a  country  all  belong  to  a  distinct  class,  and  must  remain  distinct  and 
separate,  ad  indefinitum.  How  can  a  term,  which  designates  such  a  class  as  this,  be 
applied  in  this  eountry  to  freeholders,  who  derive  the  power  to  vote,  from  owning  a 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


437 


portion  in  the  soil  ?  Must  a  man  who  owns  a  freehold  to-day,  own  it  forever  ?  Does  not 
this  interest  in  the  soil  pass  from  hand  to  hand  ?  is  it  not  actually  changing  every  day 
and  hour  ?  Besides  all  the  mutations  which  it  suffers  from  buying  and  selling,  it  is  ex- 
posed to  another  and  a  more  serious  cause  of  change  ;  that  which  arises  from  its  parti- 
tion among  the  descendants  of  those  who  possess  it.  This  operation  is  continually 
widening  the  foundation  on  whicli  freehold  Suffrage  rests.  Thus  the  dreaded  aris- 
tocracy is  a  matter  of  bargain  and  sale,  and  the  moment  any  man  purchases  the  land 
of  his  neighbour,  behold  !  a  new  aristocrat  !  What  propriety  can  there  be  in  apply- 
ing  the  term  aristocracy  to  a  body  of  individuals,  whose  claim  to  power  is  based  on  a 
foundation  as  fluctuating  as  the  waves  of  the  ocean  ?  a  body  of  men,  into  which,  a  man 
may  enter  to-day,  and  out  of  which  he  may  pass  again  to-m.orrow  To  make  the  two 
cases  alike,  it  should  first  be  shewn,  that  the  aristocracy  in  England  can  sell  at  plea- 
sure their  patents  of  nobility,  and  that  any  conmioner  may  become  a  noble,  who  is 
rich  enough  to  pay  the  market  price.  But  every  body  knows,  that  no  man  in  Eng- 
land can  enter  this  privileged  order,  but  by  the  sovereign  pleasure  of  the  King,  and 
that  a  man  who  has  once  been  admitted,  cannot  lose  his  privileges,  but  by  a  process 
of  law.  Has  the  Committee,  asked  Mr.  B.,  turned  its  attention  to  our  law-parcenary  ? 
Here  is  an  individual  who  owns  ten  tiiousand  acres  of  land;  he  has  a  family  of  six 
children  ;  the  first  descent  divides  this  tract  into  six  parts.  Suppose  each  of  his  chil- 
dren should  have  as  many  children  as  his  father  had,  then  tlie  second  descent  divides 
the  tract  into  thirty-six  parts  ;  and  on  the  same  principle,  a  third  descent  vould  break 
it  down  into  two  hundred  ;ind  sixteen  portions.  Where  then  is  the  danger  of  a  landed 
aristocracy  when  but  the  third  link  in  the  chain  of  descent  breaks  up  by  a  mere  opera- 
tion of  law,  the  largest  estate,  into  portions,  too  small  to  support  a  family  ?  Unless 
with  every  new  apportionment,  there  is  bequeathed  such  an  energy  of  character,  aa 
enables  each  descendant  to  add  largely  to  his  patrimony,  the  posteritv  of  the  most  for- 
midable aristocrat  must  inevitably  come  to  poverty.  Of  th^>  truth  of  which  assertion, 
the  past  history  and  present  condition  of  Virginia  will  furnish  abundant  pftof  to  every 
man.  The  territory  of  the  State  contains  about  sixtj'-five  thousand  square  miles, 
each  mile  containing  six  hundred  and  forty  acres  of  land.  A  process  of  arithmetic 
will  speedily  show,  that  there  is  soil  enough  in  Virginia,  to  give  a  fifty  acre  freehold 
to  one  hundred  and  thirty  thousand  persons,  after  first  supplying  every  man,  woman, 
and  child  in  the  State.  Yet,  gentlemen  are  alarmed  at  the  prospect  of  a  landed  aris- 
tocracy. So  far  is  the  community  from  such  a  danger,  that  to  base  the  Right  of  Suf- 
frage on  a  landed  qualification,  (considering  the  area  of  the  State,  the  ease  of  trans- 
mutation, and  the  inevitable  effect  of  partition,)  is  to  place  that  privilege  on  a  basis 
perpetually  extending,  and  to  make  it  the  property  of  no  man  or  set  of  men.  Such 
a  provision  does  not  confine  the  right  of  voting  to  merchants,  to  farmers,  or  to  pro- 
fessional men;  it  gives  it  to  whoever  may  hold  the  land;  to  whoever  may  purchase 
the  land;  and,  who  is  disposed  to  gratify  his  ambition  to  be  an  aristocrat,  at  the  small 
expense  required  to  possess  himself  of  a  freehold.  It  places  the  elective  franchise 
within  the  reach  of  every  man  in  the  community,  who  possesses  ordinary  industry 
and  economy.  From  sucli  an  arrangement,  no  danger  can  arise  to  the  liberties  of  the 
people. 

This  danger  being  removed,  I  ask,  whether  the  possession  of  land  will  not  be  con- 
fessed, to  furnish  the  best  evidence  of  a  man's  permanent  interest  in  the  well  he'inrr 
of  the  community.  Every  man  who  has  remained  for  any  length  of  time  in  the  Com- 
monwealth, without  possessing  himself  of  some  interest  in  its  soil,  gives  reason  to 
doubt  whether  he  intends  to  stay  among  us,  and  wh-ther  he  is  disposed  to  identify  his 
interest  with  ours.  It  is  so  very  easy  to  acquire  sufficient  land  to  entitle  a  man  to  vote, 
and  the  privilege  of  voting  is  in  its  nature  so  far  bej'ond  all  price,  that  the  presumption 
is  a  fair  one,  that  he,  who  acquires  no  freehold,  either  underrates  that  privileo-e,  or 
does  not  mean  to  become  permanently  a  citizen  among  us.  But,  we  are  told  that 
under  the  present  Constitution,  many  valuable  citizens  of  great  talents  and  virtue, 
are  excluded  from  the  polls.  It  m.ay  be  so  ;  but  what  line  can  possibly  be  drawn, 
which  will  not  leave  excluded  some  angles  of  the  State  ?  No  regulation  can  be  adopt- 
ed, under  which  some  cases  of  hardship  will  not  possibly  occur."  3s  it  not  a  hard  case, 
that  a  young  man,  who  lacks  twenty-four  hours  of  being  of  age,  should  be  deprived 
of  the  privilege  of  voting,  for  the  want  of  those  twenty-four  hours,  especially  if  he  he 
something  of  a  precose  and  forward  youtli  ?  Such  an  arofument  will  not  do,  unless 
gentlemen  can  shew  it  to  be  possible  for  imperfect  and  fallible  men,  to  make  rules 
which  shall  be  beyond  all  imperfection:  to  shew,  that  the  rule  we  propose,  will  be  at- 
tended with  some  inconvenience,  is  only  to  shew,  that  our  rule  is  human,  and  is  like 
all  other  rules,  that  have  men  for  their  authors.  As  to  the  case  of  those  citizens,  who 
own  such  vast  amounts  of  personal  property,  as  liave  been  represented  by  sfentlemen, 
and  whose  exclusion  from  the  polls  has  drawn  forth  so  much  commiseration,  if,  with 
all  their  wealth,  they  are  unwillino-  to  purchase  one  pnor  fifty  acre  tract  of  land,  their 
case  certainly  receives  little  commiseration  of  mine  :  their  exclusion  is  their  own  fault, 
their  thousands  remain  intangible  to  our  taxation,  and  if  they  will  not  subject  the 


438 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


price  of  one  poor  freehold,  to  the  reach  of  the  Government,  tliey  deserve  to  have 
neitlier  part  nor  lot  in  its  control. 

Mr.  Leigh  next  addressed  the  Committee.  According  to  my  understanding  of  the 
resolutions  now  moved  by  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  a  man  who  has  never  been 
assessed  with  a  tax  of  any  sort,  is  to  be  allowed  to  vote ;  but  the  man  who  has  been 
assessed  with  a  tax,  and  has  not  paid  it,  is  to  be  excluded  from  the  polls  !  It  comes 
then  to  this,  that  those  "  drunken  vagabonds,"  against  whom  the  gentleman  mani- 
fests so  earnest  a  zeal,  are  only  to  be  excluded,  if  they  chance  to  have  property 
enough  on  which  to  be  assessed ;  but  such  vagabonds  as  have  no  property,  and  whom 
no  man  wovild  ever  think  of  taxing,  are  the  peculiar  objects  of  his  favour.  They  must 
have  a  right  to  vote.  If  I  had  used  such  a  phrase,  it  would  doubtless,  have  been  at- 
tributed to  my  aristocratical  prejudices  ;  it  would  immediately  have  been  imputed  to 
my  political  creed.  But  I  submit  to  the  Committee,  whether  a  man  who  has  some 
property  and  some  means  of  subsistence,  or  a  man  who  has  none  at  all,  is  more  likely 
to  be  a  "  vagabond,"  and  to  belong  to  the  rabble ;"  yes,  Sir,  to  "  the  rabble."  It  is  a 
proper  phrase,  and  it  is  a  phrase  too,  used  by  a  gentleman  on  the  other  side.  Mr. 
Chairman,  I  do  not  contend  that  the  possession  of  property  is  a  security  against  vice. 
I  know  better,  and  sorry  I  am  that  I  do  ;  but  this  I  say,  if  you  look  at  the  state  of 
mankind  with  a  view  to  determine  who  is  the  most  likely  to  become  base  and  unde- 
serving; to  become  drunken  vagabonds,  and  a  part  of  the  rabble,  you  will  be  con- 
strained to  confess,  that  those  who  have  some  property,  are  at  least  more  apt  to  be  vir- 
tuous, than  those  who  have  none.  You  will  be  almost  sure  to  find,  among  those 
without  property,  no  industry  and  no  economy ;  and  if  you  then  look  to  those  who  ex- 
hibit the  greatest  degree  of  vice,  you  will  find  them  to  consist  of  persons  precisely  of 
this  description.  I  throw  out  these  objections  to  the  details  of  the  gentleman's  plan, 
that  it  may  the  better  be  compared  with  the  amendment  I  proposed.  It  is  hardly  to 
be  imagined,  that  the  gentleman  seriously  intends  such  consequences  to  result  from 
his  measur*.  I  shall  not  attempt  to  enter  on  the  question  of  a  landed  qualification  as 
the  basis  for  the  elective  franchise.  On  that  subject  hope  is  winged,  and  ready  to 
take  its  departure.  I  feel  it  dying  in  my  heart.  This  very  morning,  I  heard  the 
venerable  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  (Mr.  Monroe,)  insist  on  connecting  tliat  privi- 
lege with  the  soil,  and  I  then  saw  him  vote  in  favour  of  a  proposition  of  the  gentle- 
man from  Spottsylvania,  the  object  of  which  was  to  dispense  with  all  landed  quahfi-' 
cation  whatever.  After  this  I  can  hope  for  nothing  more ;  far  less,  can  I  expect  that 
my  shoulders  will  be  broad  enough  to  sustain  the  weight  of  such  a  cause,  I  consider 
that  question  as  at  an  end.  Whether  I  shall  ever  revive,  depends  upon  circumstan- 
ces; but  I  never  shall  abandon  it,  while  one  scintilla  of  hope  is  left  me. 

There  is  one  consideration,  which  I  consider  of  much  more  importance,  than  the 
question  of  freehold  qualification  :  whether  the  voter  is  to  possess  a  freehold  or  not,  is 
comparatively  of  little  consequence.  But  gentlemen  insist,  that  every  form  of  a 
landed  qualification,  amounts  to  an  exclusion  of  all  who  do  not  possess  it,  and  they 
argue  on  a  similar  assumption  as  to  all  other  qualifications.  Sir,  this  is  no  exclusion 
whatever,  of  any  man,  who,  according  to  the  gentlemen  themselves,  would  be  enti- 
tled to  vote ;  (for,  they  themselves  advocate  a  permanent  exclusion  of  all  females  and 
coloured  persons.)  When  gentlemen  talk  of  the  exclusion  of  any  free  white  man, 
from  the  privilege  of  voting,  I  am  at  a  loss  to  understand  their  meaning.  Is  there  a 
free  white  man  in  all  Virginia,  who  may  not  obtain  the  right  to  vote  ?  If  he  has  his 
health,  and  is  industrious,  he  may  compass  enough  to  purchase  ten  or  twenty,  or  even 
fifty  acres  of  land,  which  is  the  most  that  any  one  thinks  of  requiring  as  a  freehold. 
Who  then  is  excluded  ?  Those  only,  who  are  too  lazy  to  earn,  or  who  do  not  think 
proper  to  acquire  it.  There  is  not  a  man  who  may  not  acquire  even  the  qualification 
demanded  by  the  existing  Constitution.  He  may  possess  it  at  pleasure,  if  he  is  an  in- 
dustrious man.  Far  less  is  he  prevented  from  acquiring  the  reduced  qualification, 
which  is  proposed  to  be  acquired  by  the  new  Constitution, 

Mr.  Chairman, — I  do  not  agree  in  the  position,  that  no  man  who  is  not  qualified  to 
vote  for  members  of  the  General  Assembly,  is  not  a  member  of  the  body  politic.  I 
insist,  that  the  wife  and  the  daughters  of  such  voter,  are  members  of  the  body  politic. 
They  are  not  the  slaves  of  their  husbands  or  their  fathers ;  they  are  free-born  citi- 
zens of  this  Commonwealth.  God  forbid  they  should  be  otherwise  !  It  is  not  a  ne- 
cessary qualification  of  a  citizen  that  he  should  be  entitled  to  vote  ;  it  would  be  most 
absurd  to  exclude  from  the  privilege  of  citizenship,  every  female,  and  every  minor  in 
the  community. 

.We  hear  gentlemen  on  the  other  side  constantly  speaking  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage, 
as  being  of  inestimable  value;  the  dearest  right  of  freemen;  dear  as  life  itself,  &c. 
1  have  heard  this  language  all  my  life,  and  I  once  thought,  (it  was  when  I  was  fresh 
from  school,)  that  1  understood  it;  but  latterly  I  have  ceased  to  understand  it,  and  I 
cannot  recall  the  ideas  I  once  had  on  this  subject.  It  is  certainly  a  most  invaluable  privi- 
lege to  live  under  a  Government  freely  elected  by  the  most  virtuous  portion  of  the 
community;  to  live  under  rulers,  who  can  pass  no  act  injurious  to  me,  that  will  not 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


'  be  equally  injurious  to  themselves,  and  more  so.  But,  is  the  privilege  that  I  mdivi- 
dually  should  vote  for  them  an  invaluable  privilege,  when  I  can  purchase  it  for  fifty 
dollars  ?  1  ask  gentlemen  to  reflect  upon  this  view  of  the  subject.  _  ^Vhen  a  young 
man  is  twenty  years  old  and  six  months,  is  this  privilege  a  whit  less  inestimable,  than 
after  he  is  of  age  But  I  go  farther,  and  I  ask,  is  the  blessing  of  Republican  Govern- 
ment confinedlo  the  men  who  live  under  it.=  does  it  not  belong  to  the  women  also? 
do  they  not  enjoy  the  free  benefit  of  it The  enjoyment  of  the  inestimable  blessmg 
does  not  then  depend  on  our  exercising  the  Right  of  SulTrage,  but  it  consists  in  this, 
that  those  govern,  who  themselves  hold  property,  and  that  they  cannot  injure  others, 
without  in  the  same  degree  injuring  themselves;  that  those  govern  the  community 
who  feed,  clothe,  and  educate  the  wliole  community,  and  pay  all  its  burdens.  This 
is  the  privilege,  and  it  is  a  privilege  indeed.  Does  any  man  believe,  1  consider  it  an 
invaluable  privilege  to  vote  for  a  member  of  the  General  Assembly Witliout  the 
least  disrespect  fo°r  that  body,  I  may  say,  that  I  consider  this,  as  a  matter  of  no  mo- 
ment. I  do  not  regard  him  alone  as  my  Representative.  I  put  my  confidence  in  the 
great  body  of  the  Legislature  as  a  whole  ;  as  the  body  which  in  its  collective  capacity 
protects  mv  rights  and  gives  me  my  share  of  the  general  liberty  and  safety.  The 
only  benefit  they  are  to  me,  consists'in  this ;  that  they  protect  all  the  happiness  which 
I  succeed  in  carving  out  for  myself.  But  according  to  the  doctrine  of  the  invaluable 
privilege,  unless  I  vote,  I  enjoy  no  share  in  the  political  sovereignty  of  the  community. 
Now,  if  I  vote  against  a  candidate  who  succeeds  in  his  election,  I  am  worse  oft  than  it  I 
had  not  voted,  because  I  see  others  share  in  the  Government,  in  direct  contradiction 
to  my  wishes  and  elforts.  I  wish  in  conclusion,  distinctly  to  say,  that  the  advantage 
I  derive  from  a  free  Government  consists  in  this,  that  the  Government  is  adrninis- 
tered  by  those  who  have  a  common  interest  with  me,  and  that  I  cannot  be  injured 
unless  others  are,  and  among  those,  the  rulers  themselves.  If  I  am  protected,  that  is 
all  I  desire.  Mr.  L.  concluded  by  expressing  his  conviction,  that  to  insist  upon  a 
landed  qualification  for  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  involved  no  exclusion  of  any  man; 
established  no  order  of  nobility,  but  was  simply  a  provision,  that  those  who  were  in 
general  the  most  fit  to  rule  should  exercise  the  powers  of  Government. 

Mr.  Stanard  said  that  he  should  reply  to  Mr  Cooke's  criticism  on  his  amendment, 
if  this  was  the  proper  time  to  do  it:  but  the  amendment  having  been  rejected,  could 
not  now  be  discussed. 

Mr.  Monroe  now  explained, — I  fe,el  it  incumbent  on  me  to  give  an  explanation  of 
the  ground  on  which  I  gave  the  vote  that  has  been  remarked  upon  by  my  very  v\-orthy 
friend  irom  Chesterfield,  for  whom  I  feel  great  respect  and  regaid.  I  am  for  adhering 
to  an  interest  in  the  territory.  I  am  for  providing  some  tie  which  shall  connect  the 
voter  with  the  soil.  Perhaps  I  did  not  distinctly  understand  the  !>"  --position  of  my 
friend  from  Spottsylvania,  but  I  viewed  it  in  this  light:  that  the  person  .\h.o  had  been 
assessed  to  a  certain  amount  which  was  left  blank,  and  who  had  paid  his  assessment, 
should  be  admitted  to  vote.  My  idea  was,  that  if  he  was  taxed,  he  must  of  course  be 
a  resident :  and  if  taxed  to  the  extent  which  I  expected,  (and  it  was  my  view  that  the 
tax  should  be  made  to  exceed  the  value  of  a  freehold  cr  a  lease.)  it  would  enjoin  upon 
him  an  obligation  to  purchase  or  lease  real  property.  I  had  no  idea  of  abandoning  a 
hold  upon  the  land,  not  in  the  least.  The  proposition  ii5  still  before  the  House,  <uid 
after  all  the  amendments  should  have  been  proposed  and  passed  upon,  the  result  of 
the  whole  proposition  Avould  still  be  in  our  power.  It  was  my  purpose  to  take  a  de- 
liberate view  of  the  proposition  as  it  should  appear  in  its  last  stage,  and  then  to  vote 
for  or  against  it  as  my  best  judgment  should  dictate.  1  never  meant  to  abandon  some 
hold  upon  the  land,  but  to  give  security  by  it  to  our  system  of  Government.  I  am 
for  giving  permanence,  if  jjossible,  to  a  system  of  self-government.  But  you  go 
afloat,  the  moment  j^ou  put  the  Right  of  Suffrage  in  the  hands  of  a  transient  popula- 
tion. You  can  have  no  security.  Go  to  Great  Britain,  I  name  that  countr}-  because 
its  history  and  condition  are  most  acceptable  and  best  knov/n  by  us.  Put  tlie  Go- 
vernment there  in  the  hands  of  the  people  ;  and  they  Avould  immediately  beliead  the 
King  and  cut  oft'  the  heads  of  the  Nol)ility,  and  throw  every  thinof  into  confusion  :  the 
reason  is,  they  are  incompetent  to  self-government.  Bat  we  are  competent.  We 
are  altogether  in  a  different  situation.  The  general  diffusion  of  knowledge  amontf  our 
people  inspires  me  with  the  strongest  confidence  in  the  success  of  our  system.  "Still, 
let  us  be  on  our  guard  as  to  the  exercise  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  on  which  the  sove- 
reignty rests,  which  is  in  the  people. 

All  the  officers  of  the  Government,  though  many  of  them  are  not  elected  immedi- 
ately by  the  people,  are  their  Representatives,  since  they  derive  their  appointments 
from  the  people,  by  the  agency  of  those  whom  the  people  do  elect.  My  object  is  to 
connect  the  Right  of  Suffrage  with  the  territory. 

The  Chair  now  said  that  the  remarks  of  Mr.  Cooke  on  the  amendment  of  Mr. 
Stanard  had  been  permitted,  not  as  a  discussion  of  that  amendment  after  it  had  been, 
rejected,  but  as  a  part  of  his  argument  intended  to  bear  on  his  own  amendment. 


440 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION, 


Mr.  Leigh  gave  an  assurance  of  his  personal  regard  and  respect  for  Mr,  Monroe, 
and  expressed  his  satisfaction  at  learning  that  he  still  adhered  to  a  landed  qualification 
for  voters. 

He  then  urged  this  farther  objection  to  Mr.  Cooke's  amendment ;  that  its  effect 
would  be  to  give  the  elective  franchise  to  persons  like  some  in  Richmond  and  Peters- 
burg, wlio  were  the  mere  factors  for  the  manufacturing  houses  of  the  North,  and  who 
had  not  only  no  common  interest  with  the  people  of  Virginia,  but  an  interest  directly- 
hostile  to  theirs.  It  would  admit  every  man  who  owns  a  horse  :  and  there  were  nvim- 
bers  in  his  own  county  who  owned  nothing  else,  living  by  charity  on  the  lands  of 
others  and  wholly  devoted  to  their  will  in  every  thing  that  was  not  directly  dishonest. 
All  these  would  give  the  votes  not  of  themselves,  but  of  their  benefactors, 

Mr.  Campbell  in  reply  to  Mr.  Monroe,  referred  to  the  fact  that  in  twelve  States  of 
the  Union,  notliing  more  is  required  of  a  voter  than  residence  and  the  payment  of 
taxes.  No  condition  of  the  ancient  Governments  had  been  analogous  to  this,  and 
therefore  their  downflill  was  no  warning  against  it.  As  to  the  case  of  procuring  a 
freehold,  no  man  with  due  respect  to  himself  and  his  rights,  would  stoop  to  purchase 
what  he  had  a  right  to  demand. 

Mr.  Cooke  replied  to  Mr.  Leigh,  whose  criticism  he  thought  more  witty  than  can- 
did. He  wished  to  sweep  off  all,  who  from  moral  degradation,  were  incapable  of  an 
upright  and  proper  exercise  of  the  elective  franchise.  His  amendment  would  not 
admit  vagabonds  without  any  property,  while  it  admitted  vagabonds  who  nominally 
had  some;  because  it  excluded  all  who  did  not  comply  with  county  levies;  now  the 
rabble  of  whom  Mr.  Leigh  had  spoken,  were  all  included  in  the  poll-tax ;  and  if  re- 
turned delinquent,  all  these  would  be  excluded. 

In  reply  to  Mr.  Barbour,  he  thought  there  was  a  distinction  between  the  word 
"  rights"  and  the  terms  "privileges  and  immunities."  The  elective  franchise  was  in- 
cluded in  the  former  term,  but  not  in  the  latter  ;  and,  therefore,  the  amendment  would 
not  contradict  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States. 

Mr.  Leigh  observed  that  Mr.  Cooke  had  said,  and  repeated  three  times  that  which 
he  had  said  was  more  witty  than  candid.  He  desired  that  Mr.  Cooke  would  have  the 
goodness  to  recall  that  word  uncandid. 

Mr.  Cooke  was  about  to  reply,  when  the  Chairman  interposed,  and  remarked  that 
he  had  not  understood  Mr.  Cooke  as  imputing  any  intentional  misrepresentation  to 
Mr.  Leigh,  otherwise  he  should  have  stopped  him. 

Mr.  Leigh  repeated  his  call  on  Mr.  Cooke,  to  recall  the  word. 

Mr.  Cooke  said,  that  he  had  not  the  slightest  objection  to  saying,  with  the  utmost 
frankness,  what  was  precisely  the  fact,  that  he  had  not  imputed,  or  intended  to  impute, 
to  Mr.  Leigh,  any  intentional  misrepresentation.  He  added,  that  he  wondered  greatly 
at  the  excitability  manifested  by  Mr.  Leigh,  since  nothing  that  he  had  said  could  b& 
fairly  construed  into  an  intention  on  his  part,  to  wound  Mr.  Leigh's  feelings;  which^ 
in  fact,  he  had  not  the  remotest  idea  of  doing  That  he  meant  nothing  more  than 
that  Mr.  Leigh's  remarks,  made  in  the  ardour  of  debate,  had,  in  their  eft'ect,  presented 
an  unfair  view  of  his  (Mr.  Cooke's)  proposition.  Deliberate  or  intentional  unfairness, 
he  had  not  imputed  to  him. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  that,  personally,  he  was  satisfied.  But  he  had  appealed  to  Mr, 
Cooke  in  the  course  of  his  remarks  to  say,  whether  the  interpretation  put  by  him  (Mr. 
Leigh)  on  his  (Mr.  Cooke's)  proposition  was  not  correct;  to  which  Mr.  Cooke  had 
nodded  assent.  After  that  he  thought  it  was  rather  singular,  that  Mr.  Cooke  should 
impute  to  his  argument  any  v/ant  of  candour. 

Mr.  Cooke  replied,  that  the  proposition  which  his  assent  to,  or  dissent  from,  wa» 
asked  by  Mr.  Leigh,  was  simply  this — that  Mr.  Cooke's  scheme  of  quahfication,  ad- 
mitted persons  to  vote  who  had  no  taxable  property,  and  excluded  from  Suffrage 
those  who  had  taxable  property,  and  failed  to  pay  the  taxes  assessed  on  it.  To  th& 
correctness  of  that  construction  of  his  proposition,  Mr.  C.  had  nodded  assent. 

Mr.  Doddridge  now  objected  to  that  part  of  Mr.  Cooke's  amendment,  which  had  re- 
lation to  aliens;  he  moved  to  strike  out  that  clause.  He  briefly  explained  his  objec- 
tions to  it,  as  going  farther  than  the  laws  relating  to  aliens  go,  respecting-  real  estate. 

Mr.  Cooke  modified  his  amendment,  by  inserting  the  words,  "  if  acquired  by  pur- 
chase"— (requiring  the  deed  to  be  recorded,  when  the  freehold  was  acquired  by  pur- 
chase.) 

Mr.  Joynes  expressed  an  objection  to  Mr.  Cooke's  amendment,  as  going  to  admit 
the  poorest  man  in  the  county,  while  the  richest  might  be  excluded,  if  the  poll-tax 
should  ever  be  repeated. 

The  question  being  put  on  striking  out,  it  passed  in  the  negative,  without  a  count. 

Mr.  Coalter,  after  an  apology,  referring  to  his  recent  occupation  of  a  seat,  ex- 
pressed his  opposition  to  cutting  down  the  venerable  tree  planted  by  our  forefathers 
and  planting  another  in  its  stead ;  he  would  endeavour  to  strike  one  blow  for  Vir- 
ginia, and  bear  down  on  the  enemy  ;  by  whom  he  meant  the  passions  and  prejudices 
of  members,  his  own  included.  "To  pluck  up  the  tree,  would  be  the  sin  of  man 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


441 


only;  for  Eve,  looked  on  with  deep  anxiety  clutching  her  child  to  her  bosom. 
He  expressed  his  decided  approbation  of  the  present  form  of  Government,  as  the  best 
in  the  world,  under  which  the  people  had  lived  contented  and  happy.  He  reflected 
on  the  injustice  of  tlie  friends  of  Internal  Improvement  laying  the  burden  on  those 
who  had  no  personal  interest  in  the  object,  and  imposing  a  lasting  mortgage  on  the 
lands  of  the  State, 

Mr  .  Campbell  thought  the  gentleman's  alarm  about  the  axe  imaginary ;  it  was  only 
a  pruning  knife  to  lop  oft  a  few  aristocratical  branches. 

Mr.  Cooke  farther  modified  his  amendment  at  the  suggestion  of  Mr.  Joynes,  so  as 
to  include  any  State,  county,  or  corporation  tax. 

In  this  form  the  question  was  taken  upon  its  adoption  and  negatived. — Ayes  43, 
Noes  49. 

Mr.  Doddridge  now  moved  the  amendment  he  had  referred  to  on  Saturday,  and 
which  is  in  th-ese  words  : 

And  shall  be  extended  to  every  free  white  male  citizen,  aged  twenty-one  years  or 
upwards ;  who  shall  have  resided  at  least  two  years  in  the  county,  city,  borough,  or 
district,  in  which  he  shall  offer  to  vote,  immediately  preceding  the  time  of  voting,  and 
who,  during  that  period,  shall  have  actually  paid  a  revenue  tax  legally  assessed; 
and  to  ever}^  free  white  male  citizen,  aged  tv/enty-one  years  or  upwards,  who  shall 
have  actually  resided,  at  least  two  years  in  the  county,  city,  borough  or  district,  where 
he  offers  to  vote,  and  who,  for  the  period  of  six  months  at  least,  shall  have  been  an 
liouse-keeper  therein,  and  shall  actually  have  paid  a  State,  county,  or  corporation  tax." 

Mr.  Mercer  wished  to  know  why  Mr.  D.  desired  to  strike  out  the  first  and  second 
cla^s  of  persons  included  in  the  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee  ? 

Mr.  Doddridge  replied,  because  the  generality  of  his  proposition  covered  them  all, 
provided  they  paid  taxes. 

Mr.  Mercer  stated  that  he  could  not  vote  for  the  proposition.  The  gentleman  from 
Brooke  hhnself  had  agreed  that  all  who  now  have  the  Right  of  Suffrage  should  retain 
it.  Was  it  liis  object  to  make  the  right  to  vote  to  depend  on  the  pa3anent  of  a  tax  ? 
In  eight  States  of  the  Union  there  is  no  tax  whatever  imposed.  Even  within  sight 
of  this  Capitol,  there  is  a  gentleman  v/ho  has  an  estate  worth  twenty -five  thousand 
dollars,  but  who  has  no  right  to  vote  because  there  is  no  tax  imposed  on  his  property. 
Why  were  such  persons  to  be  excluded  ?  He  was  in  favor  of  comprehending  all 
those  whom  that  gentleman  intended  to  include ;  but  he  would  not  vote  to  exclude 
those  who  held  by  exactly  the  same  tenure,  but  who  were  denied  the  right  to  vote  be- 
cause they  were  not  taxed.  The  gentleman  from  Brooke  himself,  insisted  that  there 
should  be  a  sufficient  evidence  of  permanent  common  interest.  He  moved  to  amend 
the  proposition  to  am.end,  by  inserting  the  amendment  in  the  fourteenth  line,  after 
the  word  "  dollars" — the  effect  would  be  to  leave  the  first  and  second  classes  un- 
touched. 

The  Chair  decided  that  the  amendment  was  not  in  order ;  but 

Mr.  Doddridge  having  accepted  the  proposition,  modified  his  amendment  accord- 
ingly; 

Mr.  Joynes  moved  to  amend  the  amendment  by  adding  the  words  and  who  shall 
have  actually  paid  a  State,  corporation,  or  county  tax." 

Mr.  Doddridge  accepted  the  amendment  as  a  inodification  of  his  amendment. 
Mr.  Mason  asked  for  a  division  of  the  question ;  and. 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  striking  out,  v/hich,  after  an  unsuccessful  motion 
by  Mr.  Henderson,  that  for  the  sake  of  accuracy  the  names  of  members  should  be 
called  over,  was  decided  in  the  affirmative. 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  inserting  the  words  moved  by  Mr.  Doddridge,  and 
decided  in  the  negative. — Ayes  44,  Noes  48. 

Mr.  Mercer  then  moved  to  fill  the  blank  occasioned  by  striking  out,  with  the  fourth 
class  of  persons  included  in  the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  in  the  following 
words : 

Or  who  for  twelve  months  next  preceding  has  been  a  house-keeper,  and  head  of 
a  family  within  the  county,  borough,  or  election  district,  where  he  may  ofier  to  vote, 
and  who  shall  have  been  assessed  with  a  part  of  the  revenue  of  the  Commomvealth 
within  the  preceding  year,  and  actually  paid  the  same." 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  he  would  not  presume  to  violate  the  rule  which  had  been  laid 
down  by  others,  of  abstaining  from  going  into  the  merits  of  the  general  question. 
There  was  one  view  which  he  wished  to  take  :  while  gentlemen  on  one  side  represent 
the  acquisition  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage  as  to  be  gained  with  the  greatest  facility,  they 
seemed  to  attach  the  greatest  importance  to  the  exclusion  of  others  fi-om  its  exercise. 
If  it  were  so  easy  to  acquire  a  qualification,  and  it  was  of  such  importance,  why  could 
not  faction  purchase  the  freehold  ?  According  to  the  gentleman  from  Orange,  (Mr. 
P.  P.  Barbour.)  the  multiplication  of  the  square  miles  in  the  State  by  the  acres,  gave  suf- 
ficient quantity  of  land  to  every  individual  in  the  State,  and  left  a  considerable  surplus. 
He  computed  that  putting  the  value  of  the  freehold,  as  estimated  by  gentlemen,  it 

56 


442 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


would  take  a  capital  of  three  millions  of  dollars  to  supply  the  sixty  thousand  now  ex- 
cluded with  the  qualification.  He  tlaen  reviewed  the  proposition  by  gentlemen  on  the 
other  side,  denying  that  the  land  qualification  was  necessary.  The  people  who  lived 
in  a  shepherd  state,  had  other  property  besides  land,  and  that  was  considered  quite  as 
permanent  and  essential  as  land.  Was  it  necessary  for  him  to  direct  the  attention  of 
gentlemen  to  England  ?  Is  not  the  fixed  capital  in  that  country  as  important  as  land? 
Is  it  not  here  in  the  low-land  country,  where  labor  is  capital  and  is  an  essential  ingre- 
dient in  the  wealth  of  the  country  Implements  of  trade  are  essential,  and  every  one 
will  thus  perceive,  that  other  property  is  as  essential  as  land.  If  this  principle  be 
true,  what  becomes  of  the  foundation  of  the  argument,  which  rests  on  the  durability 
of  land.?  The  right  is  not  founded  on  the  land,  but  the  relation  in  which  the  pro- 
prietor stands  to  it.  And  so  it  is  with  other  capital.  It  is  the  relation  of  the  proprietor 
to  it;  as  it  is  between  the  freeholder  and  the  soil.  Personal  property  is  an  essential 
ingredient  in  the  wealth  of  the  country,  and  the  title  to  it  is  as  good,  as  that  of  the 
land-owner  to  the  land.  By  shutting  out  the  sixty  thousand  free  whites  who  lack  the 
qualification  of  land,  we  shut  out  not  only  the  majority  now,  but  the  increase  of  that 
majority.  He  referred  to  the  time,  when  tenants  for  life  were  every  where  to  be 
found ;  when  all  that  part  which  was  now  called  the  back-woods  and  the  part  where 
he  lived,  were  cultivated  by  tenants  for  life.  The  practice  had  been  discontinued,  be- 
cause of  its  eflfect  on  the  independence  of  the  tenants,  and  so  completely  had  this 
class  disappeared,  that  in  twenty  years,  he  had  known  but  two  instances  of  tenants 
for  life.  Suppose,  men  of  fortune  found  it  to  their  interest  to  divert  part  of  their  capi- 
tal from  manufactures  to  land,  would  it  not  be  better  to  introduce  the  tenantry- system 
again,  and  to  supercede  slave-labor.''  In  his  part  of  the  country,  tenantry  for  years 
had  superceded  slavery.  Gentlemen  imagined  that  sixty  thousand  non-freeholders, 
might  be  easily  converted  into  freeholders.  He  requested  them  to  look  at  the  conse- 
quences of  this.  Suppose  sixty  thousand  persons  purchased  freeholds  of  fifty  dollars 
each ;  three  millions  would  thus  be  expended  merely  for  the  Right  of  Suffrage. 

He  took  a  view  of  the  different  value  of  land  in  different  sections  of  the  country, 
and  resisted  the  idea,  that  a  qualification  could  at  any  time  be  purchased  at  a  mode- 
rate price.  In  the  district  he  represented,  the  non-freeholders  greatly  outnumber  the 
freeholders,  and  he  supposed,  that  all  the  non-freeholders  there,  desired  to  purchase 
a  freehold  each,  and  taking  this  for  his  basis,  he  asserted,  that  it  would  take  ten  millions 
to  purchase  freeholds  for  the  non-freeholders,  in  order  to  give  them  the  qualification 
to  vote.  You  would  make  all  these  men  farmers.  He  repeated,  that  the  basis  of  the 
qualification,  was  not  the  land,  but  the  relation  in  which  the  owner  stood  to  his  land. 

He  adverted  to  the  assertion  of  gentlemen,  that  this  question  which  we  are  now 
Bettling,  was  of  limited  importance,  only  embracing  the  Commonwealth.  It  was  for- 
gotten that  the  United  States  had  a  representation  from  this  State,  which  would  be  af- 
fected by  our  measures,  and  which  taxes  our  productions,  to  the  amount  of  six  times 
our  whole  State  revenue.  He  did  not  believe,  that  his  venerable  friend  and  colleague, 
(Mr.  Monroe,)  intended  to  exclude  house-keepers,  who  have  an  interest  in  the  soil. 

Mr.  Johnson  moved  to  amend  the  amendment,  by  inserting  after  the  words  "  and 
who  shall  have  been  assessed  with  a  part  of  the  revenue  of  the  Commonwealth, 
within  the  preceding  year,"  the  words  "  not  less  than  cents." 

But  his  motion  was  negatived. — Ayes  42,  Noes  51. 

Mr.  Leigh  again  pointed  out  the  inconsistency  of  letting  a  tenant  vote  who.  paid  a 
ten  cent  tax,  and  excluding  his  landlord,  because  his  freehold  did  not  come  up  to  the 
value  fixed  by  the  Constitution. 

Mr.  Mercer  acknowledged  this,  but  reserved  that  for  another  time,  when  the  whole 
should  be  referred  to  a  Select  Committee  to  revise.  He  pressed  the  question;  and  it 
was  then  taken  and  decided  in  the  affir77iative.—Ayes  53,  Noes  not  counted. 

That  whole  resolution,  as  amended,  will  now  read  : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Right  of  Suffrage  shall  continue  to  be  exercised  by  all  who 
now  enjoy  it  under  tiie  existing  Constitution:  and  shall  be  extended,  1st,  to  every 
free  white  male  citizen  of  tlie  Common v/ealth  resident  therein,  above  the  age  of 
twenty-one  years,  v/ho  owns-,  and  has  possessed  for  six  months,  or  who  has  acquired 
by  marriage,  descent,  or  devise,  a  freehold  estate,  assessed  to  the  value  of  not  less 
than  dollars  for  the  payment  of  taxes,  if  such  assessment  shall  be  required  by 

law:  2d,  or  who  shall  own  a  vested  estate  in  fee,  in  remainder,  or  reversion,  in  land, 
the  assessed  value  of  which  shall  be  dollars  :  3d,  or  who  for  twelve  months 

next  preceding,  has  been  a  house-keeper  and  head  of  a  family  within  the  county,  city, 
borough,  or  election  district,  where  he  may  offer  to  vote,  and  who  shall  have  been  as- 
sessed with  a  part  of  the  revenue  of  the  Commonwealth  within  the  preceding  year, 
and  actually  paid  the  same  :  Provided,  nevertheless,  That  the  Right  of  Suffrage  shall 
not  be  exercised  by  any  person  of  unsound  mind,  or  who  shall  be  a  pauper,  or  a  non- 
commissioned officer,  soldier,  sailor,  or  marine,  in  the  service  of  the  United  States, 
nor  by  any  person  convicted  of  any  infamous  offence  ;  nor  by  citizens  born  without 
the  Commonwealth,  unless  they  shall  have  resided  therein  for  five  years  immediately 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


443 


preceding  the  election  at  which  they  shall  offer  to  vote,  and  two  years  preceding  the 
said  election,  in  the  county,  city,  borough,  or  election  district,  where  they  shall  olfer 
to  vote,  (the  mode  of  proving  such  previous  residence,  when  disputed,  to  be  pre- 
scribed by  law,)  and  shall  possess,  mereover,  some  one  or  more  of  the  qualifications 
above  enumerated." 

The  Committee  then  rose  and  the  House  adjourned. 


TUESDAY,  November  24, 1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Douglass,  of  the  Presbyterian  Church. 

The  House  then  resolved  itself  into  a  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  Powell  in  the 
Chair,  and  the  question  being  on  the  third  resolution  reported  to  the  Convention  by 
the  Legislative  Committee,  viz: 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Right  of  Suffrage  shall  continue  to  be  exercised  by  all  who  now^ 
enjoy  it  under  the  existing  Constitution:  and  shall  be  extended,  1st,  to  every  free 
white  male  citizen  of  the  Commonwealth  resident  therein,  above  the  age  of  twenty- 
one  years,  who  owns,  and  has  possessed  for  six  months,  or  who  has  acquired  by  mar- 
riage, descent,  or  devise,  a  freehold  estate,  assessed  to  the  value  of  not  less  than 
dollars  for  the  payment  of  taxes,  if  such  assessment  shall  be  required  by  law:  2d,  or 
who  shall  own  a  vested  estate  in  fee,  in  remainder,  or  reversion,  in  land,  the  assessed 
value  of  which  shall  be  dollars :  3d,  or  who  for  twelve  months  next  preceding, 

has  been  a  house-keeper  and  head  of  a  family  within  the  county,  city,  borough  or  elec- 
tion district,  where  he  may  offer  to  vote,  and  who  shall  have  been  assessed  with  a  part 
of  the  revenue  of  the  Commonwealth  within  the  preceding  year,  and  actually  paid 
the  same  :  Provided,  nevertheless,  That  the  Right  of  Suffrage  shall  not  be  exercised  by 
any  person  of  unsound  mind,  or  who  shall  be  a  pauper,  or  a  non-commissioned  officer, 
soldier,  sailor  or  marine,  in  the  service  of  the  United  States,  nor  by  any  person  con- 
victed of  any  infamous  offence;  nor  by  citizens  born  without  the  Commonwealth,  un- 
less they  shall  have  resided  therein  for  five  years  immediately  preceding  the  election 
at  which  they  shall  offer  to  vote,  and  two  years  precedmg  the  said  election,  in  the 
county,  city,  borough  or  election  district,  where  they  shall  offer  to  vote,  (the  mode  of 
proving  such  previous  residence,  when  disputed,  to  be  prescribed  by  law.)  and  shall 
possess,  moreover,  some  one  or  more  of  the  qualifications  above  enumerated." 

Mr.  Summers  of  Kanavdia,  offered  the  following  amendment,  (applying  to  the  third 
class  of  voters  added)  being  the  same  he  had  oftered  in  the  Legislative  Committee, 
with  a  slight  modification,  substituting  occupancy  for  possession : 

"  Or  who  shall  own  and  be  himself  in  actual  occupation  of  a  lease-hold  estate,  with 
the  evidence  of  title  recorded,  of  a  term  originally  not  less  than  five  years,  and  one  of 
which  shall  he  unexpired,  of  the  annual  value  or  rent  of  dollars." 

The  amendment  was  very  briefly  explained  by  the  mover,  and  supported  by  Mr. 
Claytor. 

At  the  suggestion  of  Mr.  Leigh, 

Mr.  Summers  farther  modified  his  amendment,  so  as  to  confine  the  occupancy  to 
the  termor  himself,  and  not  extend  it  to  his  tenant. 

Mr.  Henderson  of  Loudoun,  moved  to  amend  the  amendment,  by  striking  out  after 
the  words  of  a  term  originally  not  less  than  five  years,"  the  words  which  immedi- 
ately follow,  viz  :  "  and  one  of  tchich  shall  be  unexpired.'' 

The  motion  prevailed,  Ayes  48 — (Mr.  Marshall  was  observed  to  vote  for  it,  Mr. 
Madison  and  Mr.  Monroe  against  it.)  So  the  words  requiring  one  year  of  the  lease 
to  remain  unexpired,  were  stricken  out. 

Mr.  Leigh  moved  to  strike  out  the  word  five"  (in  the  original  length  of  the  lease) 
with  a  view  to  insert  a  longer  period. 

This  motion  was  supported  by  Mr.  Doddridge,  as  tending  to  benefit  the  tenure  of 
lease-hold  property,  by  encouraging  long  leases. 

Mr.  Johnson  wished  first  to  know  how  the  blank  was  to  be  filled. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  he  meant  to  insert  ten,  instead  of  five  years. 

Mr.  Claytor  said,  he  should  then  move  to  fill  the  blank  with  three  instead  of  five. 

Mr.  Lei^h  then  varied  his  motion,  so  as  to  strike  out,  and  insert  ten.  The  motion 
was  negatived. 

Mr.  Claytor  moved  to  strike  out  five  and  insert  three. 

Mr.  Scott  called  for  a  division  of  the  question ;  and  then  the  question  being  put  on 
striking  out  five,  it  was  negatived. 

So  the  term  of  five  years  as  the  original  length  of  the  lease,  was  left  unaltered. 

Mr.  Tyler  asked,  and  obtained  a  re-consideration  of  the  motion  to  strike  out  the  un- 
expired term  of  one  year  ;  but  the  vote  being  again  taken,  the  striking  out  was  again 
carried — Ayes  45,  Noes  44. 


444 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTIONo 


Mr.  Wilson  moved  to  amend  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Summers,  by  striking  out  the 
words  (in  respect  to  the  lease)  "  of  the  annual  value  or  rent  of  dollars." 
But  the  motion  was  negatived. 

The  question  was  then  put  on  Mr.  Summers's  amendment  as  amended,  and  carried 
by  a  large  majority. 

Mr.  Leigh  now  moved  to  amend,  by  inserting  after  the  word  "  year,"  (in  reference 
to  the  payment  of  a  part  of  the  revenue  within  the  preceding  year)  the  words  "  to  the 
amount  of  ."    But  the  motion  was  negatived — Ayes  43,  Noes  44. 

Mr.  Stanard  then  m.oved  to  insert,  (in  the  same  place,  and  in  reference  to  the  same 
subject,  namely,  the  tax  paid,)  the  words  "by  a  tax  on  property  oioned  by  him.'" 

Mr.  Mercer  explained  the  effect  of  this  amendment  to  be,  to  exclude  the  tenant  who 
pays  a  tax  on  his  house,  the  merchant  who  pays  a  tax  on  his  licence,  or  a  slave-em- 
ployer on  the  slaves  he  hires. 

Mr.  Stanard  thought  differently  :  when  the  tenant  paid  the  tax,  it  formed  a  part  of 
the  rent.  The  amendment  would  exclude  mountebanks,  pedlars,  &c.  Those  who 
had  not  some  little  modicum  of  property  hung  loosely  on  society. 

Mr.  Moore  opposed  the  amendment,  as  leading  to  disputes  at  elections,  and  after- 
ward as  to  the  votes  to  be  admitted. 

Mr.  Green  said,  the  resolution  as  it  stood,  would  give  the  K-ight  of  Suffrage  to  every 
man  who  sues  out  a  writ,  with  or  without  cause  of  action,  for  there  is  a  tax  on  ail 
writs. 

The  amendment  of  Mr.  Stanard  was  negatived — Ayes  41,  Noes  48. 
(Messrs.  Madison,  Monroe  and  Marshall,  against  it.) 

Mr.  Stanard,  (to  avoid  disputes  about  votes,)  varied  his  amendment,  so  as  to  read, 
"  by  a  tax  on  property  charged  to  him  on  the  Commissioners'  books." 

Mr.  S.  explained  his  object  to  be,  to  exclude  all  who  paid  tax  on  their  profession  or 
trade  merely.  It  was  unfair  that  the  mechanic,  who  sells  the  work  of  his  own  hands, 
should  be  excluded,  and  the  merchant,  who  sells  foreign  goods,  admitted  to  vote. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  of  all  books,  printed  or  in  MS.,  the  Commissioners'  books  were 
the  most  inaccurate.  Besides,  this  would  be  fixing  the  Right  of  Suffrage  on  a  varia- 
ble mode  of  taxation,  liable  to  continual  change. 

Mr.  Leigh  had  never  heard  the  Commissioners'  books  charged  with  inaccuracy  be- 
fore. As  to  the  tax  on  merchants'  licenses,  it  was  not  the  merchant  who  paid  them, 
but  the  consumers. 

Mr.  Mercer  replied,  tliat  he  had  known  the  same  tract  of  land  to  be  charged  three 
times  over,  on  the  Commissioner's  book,  and  never  to  its  right  owner  in  either  case. 
Many  merchants  would  be  glad  if  the  fact  was  as  stated  by  Mr.  S.,  and  lawyers  too. 

The  question  was  taken  on  Mr.  Stanard's  amendment,  and  the  votes  stood — Ayes 
47,  Noes  46. 

(Messrs.  Madison  and  Marshall  for  it,  Mr.  Monroe  against  it.) 

The  Chair  voting  in  the  negative,  produced  a  tie ;  and  of  course  the  motion  was  lost. 

Mr.  Summers,  after  expressing  his  satisfaction  that  there  was  now,  as  he  hoped,  a 
final  end  to  the  freehold  Right  of  Suffrage  in  Virginia^  moved  the  following  amend- 
ment : 

"  Or  who  having  resided  two  years  in  the  county,  city,  town  or  election  district, 
should  have  been  assessed  with,  and  paid  to  the  Commonwealth  any  part  of  the  reve- 
nue of  the  preceding  year." 

The  amendment  was  to  be  inserted  immediately  before  the  proviso. 

Mr.  Stanard  enquired  whether  this  was  not,  in  substance,  the  same  provision,  which 
had  been  three  times  rejected  already.'' 

The  Chair  thereupon  compared  the  present  amendment  with  all  those  which  had 
been  rejected;  and  then  announced,  that  though  this  proposition  had  been  rejected, it 
had  always,  heretofore,  been  in  connexion  with  some  other  proposition,  and  had  never, 
until  now,  been  presented  specifically,  and  alone;  it  was  therefore  in  order. 

Mr.  Johnson  strongly  objected  to  this  amendment,  as  going  in  effect  to  put  the  ex-. 
tent  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  v/ithin  the  control,  and  at  the  discretion  of  the  Legisla- 
ture :  who,  by  increasing  or  diminishing  the  taxes,  could  enlarge  or  lessen  the  number 
of  voters  at  pleasure.  A  tax  of  one  cent  a  head  would  at  any  time  introduce  Universal 
Suffrage. 

Mr,  Randolph  then  rose  and  addressed  the  Committee,  nearly  as  follows: 
As  one  of  not  the  least  zealous  of  those  who  wish  (in  company  with  the  gentleman 
who  stands  at  the  head  of  the  delegation  from  Loudoun,  and  presides  over  this  Con- 
vention, the  benefit  of  whose  vote  I  trust  we  shall  have  when  we  come  into  the  House,) 
to  restrain  the  Right  of  Suffrage  to  the  possession  of  land,  I  feel  almost  indifferent 
whether  this  amendment  shall  prevail  or  not.  I  will  go  farther,  and  say,  that  if  the 
proposition,  written  in  sport,  by  my  old  friend  and  fellow-labourer,  who  sits  behind 
me  (Mr.  Garnett,)  and  which  gives  the  Right  of  Suffrage  to  every  free  white  man 
who  has  been  twenty-four  hours  within  the  bounds  of  an  election  district,  should  be 
offered  by  him,  I  do  not  know,  if  I  should  have  any  great  objection  to  that  proposition. 


DEBATES   OF  THE 


CONVENTION. 


445 


But  I  will  say,  with  the  most  perfect  sincerity,  that  I  had  rather  this  Committee  should 
rise,  after  having  adopted  a  resolution  committing  the  whole  powers  of  the  State,  Le- 
gislative, Executive,  and  Judicial,  to  the  Legislature  of  Virginia,  than  that  any  of  the 
propositions  inserted  in  the  third  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  should  be- 
come a  part  of  the  Constitution.  I  believe  it  would  be  safer  to  trust  solely  to  the  dis- 
cretion of  the  Legislature,  than  to  adopt  these  propositions;  for,  we  should  then  at 
least  rest  upon  the  good  sense  of  the  people.  Sir,  I  put  it  to  every  gentleman  who 
hears  me,  whether  it  would  not  be  safer  to  give  the  Legislature  a  carte  blanche,  and 
make  them  as  omnipotent  as  the  Parliament  ot"  Great  Britain,  rather  than  to  give  them 
these  propositions  as  the  fundamental  IvlW  by  which  they  are  to  be  bound.  1  have 
said,  and  I  will  now  repeat  it,  that  if  the  first  resolution  in  the  report  of  the  Legisla- 
tive Committee  shall  be  adopted,  in  the  naked  form  in  which  it  now  stands,  it  will  be 
a  matter  of  indifference  to  me,  personally,  what  shall  be  done  by  tliis  body  hereafter,  on 
any  subject.  And  it  is  only  because  this  first  resolution  lies  as  yet,  in  abeyance  on 
your  table,  that  I  am  disposed  to  struggle  in  relation  to  what  I  consider  next  in  im- 
portance. Sir,  if  the  freeholders  of  this  Commonwealth,  in  whom  is  the  power,  shall 
be  weak  and  mad  enough  to  surrender  tliis  question,  they  will  have  eftaced,  (were  it 
not  in  Holy  Writ,)  all  record  of  the  stupidity  of  Esau.  If  we,  the  proprietors  of  the 
soil,  the  land-owners,  who  can  give  notice  to  quit,  aye,  and  compel  to  quit  too,  all 
those  persons  who  insist  on  taxing  our  land,  submit  to  this,  our  ineffable  stupidity" 
('  I  thank  thee,  Jew,  for  teachinglne  that  word,")  I  say  om-  ineffable  stupidity''  will 
have  effaced,  (were  it  not  inscribed  by  the  pen  of  inspiration  on  the  pages  of  Holy 
Writ,)  all  record  of  the  stupidity  of  Esau.  I  do  not  know  whether  I  shall  take  the 
trouble  to  rise,  or  keep  my  seat,  when  the  question  shall  be  called  on  the  amendment 
of  the  gentleman  from  Kanawha. 

I  had  no  expectation  of  entering  into  this  debate,  but  the  appearance  of  apathy, 
which  i  witness  (with  a  solitary  exception,)  is  to  me  most  afflicting  and  painful.  There 
is  one  class  of  non-freeholders  toward  whom  my  heart  yearns,  if  it  were  not  restrained 
by  my  judgment :  I  mean  the  sons  of  freeholders ;.  whose  fathers  cannot  yet  afford  to  lay 
them  otf  their  little  modicum  of  land,  and  who,  therefore,  have  to  wait.  To  that  class, 
I  would  now  address  myself,  and  I  would  say  to  them,  cannot  you  trust  your  fathers  ? 
cannot  you  have  a  little  patience  ?  must  you  not,  necessarily,  succeed  to  this  power 
if  not  by  inheritance,  or  bequest,  at  least  by  a  fevv  years  industry  ?  Will  you  go  into 
joint  stock  with  those  "  vagabonds"  and  that  rahble,'''  so  well  designated  by  the  gen- 
tleman from  Frederick,  who  never  mean  to  have  a  freehold.'  the  profligate,  the  home- 
less; who,  as  was  well  said  by  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania, hang  very  loosely  on 
society,"  but  stick  very  closely  to  her  skirts,  and  who  are  determined  to  pick  up  their 
vile  and  infamous  bread,  by  every  despicable  means I  call  on  the  young  non-free- 
holders, the  sons  of  freeholders,  (and  if  I  had  a  son,  he  should  be  my  men  son)  I  call  on 
them  to  wait,  and  not  to  unite  themselves  with  those  who,  in  the  nature  of  things,  can 
have  no  permanent  interest  in  the  Commonwealth.  I  am  very  sure,  that  when  they 
shall  have  understood  this  question,  they  will  rally  round  tlieir  fathers  and  their  bro- 
thers. 1  have  no  belief,  that  a  Constitution  with  such  principles  in  it,  will  ever  be  re- 
ceived by  the  sober  sense  of  this  good  old  Commonwealth.  I  would  rather  wish  that 
all  powers,  Executive,  Legislative  and  Judicial,  should  be  at  once  entrusted  to  the  Ge- 
neral Assembly,  and  then  trust  the  good  sense  of  ihe  people  of  Virginia,  tlian  inflict 
on  them  the  curse  of  sucli  provisions  as  those  v\diich  the  Committee  have  adopted. 

Mr.  Summers,  in  reply  to  Mr.  Johnson,  expressed  regret  at  not  being  able  to  attach 
as  much  weight  to  his  opinion  in  this  case,  as  he  was  accustomed  to  do.  He  thought 
the  expansive  power  attending  this  amendment,  was  its  most  valuable  feature.  He 
was  willing  to  commit  it  to  the  wisdom  of  the  Legislature,  believing  it  to  be  a  just 
principle,  fhat  all  who  contribute  to  the  burdens  of  society,  should  have  some  voice  in 
its  affairs. 

Mr.  Stanard  thought  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Kanawha,  went,  at 
least,  a  bow-shot  furlher,  toward  Universal  Suffrage,  than  any  proposition  yet  sub- 
mitted to  the  Committee.  He  did  not  know  how  the  gentleman  woidd  manage  the 
matter  with  his  friend  from  Loudoun,  who,  in  his  speech  on  a  former  occasion,  had 
insisted  that  all  taxes  on  consumption  were  paid  by  the  consumer.  If  this  were  true, 
and  an  excise  should  be  laid  on  spirits,  every  man  who  bought  a  gill  of  rum,  would 
thereby  pay  a  tax  and  get  tJie  Right  of  Suffrage  :  and  thus  the  vagabonds"  and 
"rabble"  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (very  properly  so  called,)  would  be  enti- 
tled jjar  excellence  to  that  privilege.  He  insisted  on  the  objection  urged  by  Mr.  John- 
son, and  then  shevv'ed  that  the  hghtest  cattle-tax,  would  give  a  vote  to  every  man 
west  of  the  mountains  ;  inferred  the  ease  of  introducing  Universal  Suffrage,  and  con- 
cluded with  a  strong  appeal  to  the  Committee,  against  so  sweeping  an  amendment. 

The  question  being  taken,  the  amendment  was  rejected  without  a  count. 

Mr.  Henderson  now  moved  to  amend  that  clause  of  the  resolution  which  requires  a 
residence  of  five  years,  of  citizens  of  other  States  moving  into  Virginia,  before  they 
can  be  permitted  to  vote.  He  thought  two  years  residence  in  the  State,  and  one  in 
the  county,  a  sufficient  test  of  permanent  interest  in  the  Common  wealth. 


446 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  Nicholas  said  he  should  vote  for  the  amendment.  He  was  willing  to  give  these 
citizens  the  right  of  voting  after  a  residence  of  two  years,  but  he  would  superadd  to 
the  qualification  of  persons  of  this  class,  the  attainment  of  a  freehold.  He  did  not 
think  that  his  part  of  the  country  would  be  injured  by  this  proposition;  and  he  thought 
it  impolitic  to  throw  impediments  in  the  way  of  emigration  to  the  State.  He  did  not 
go  with  the  gentleman  from  Orange,  (Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour,)  in  his  doubts,  that  by 
prescribing  one  Right  of  Suffrage,  we  should  interfere  with  the  Constitution  of 
the  United  States.  He  thought  that  this  construction  of  the  Constitution,  went  to 
impair  the  sovereignty  of  the  States.  He  thought  that  we  ought  to  extend  courtesy 
towards  the  sister  States,  and  endeavour  to  promote  harmony  with  the  States,  by 
adopting  a  system  of  indulgent  courtesy,  and  not  restrict  the  rights  of  citizens  of 
other  States  to  such  as  have  resided  five  years.  He  would,  however,  require  a  free- 
hold, as  the  citizens  of  the  other  States  cannot  claim  to  be  put  on  a  footing  with  the 
citizens  of  Virginia. 

Mr.  M'Coy  concurred  in  the  sentiment,  that  the  period  of  probation  was  too  long, 
and  that  citizens  of  other  States  ought  to  be  put  on  the  same  footing  with  our  own : 
but  he  conceived  this  case  provided  for  by  that  clause  in  the  first  part  of  the  resolu- 
tion, which  declares  that  "  the  Right  of  Suffrage  shall  continue  to  be  exercised  by  all 
who  now  enjoy  it  under  the  existing  Constitution  :"  a  residence  of  six  months  only 
is  now  required. 

Mr.  Leigh  thought  this  clause  superceded  by  the  effect  of  the  subsequent  proviso. 
He,  however,  disapproved  of  the  whole  of  that  part  of  the  resolution  relating  to  citi- 
zens of  other  States,  as  unjust,  and  hard  in  its  bearing. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Henderson,  the  whole  of  that  clause  was  stricken  out,  from  the 
word  "  nor,"  to  the  end  of  the  proviso.    [See  above.] 

The  Committee  now  proceeded  to  the  fourth  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Com- 
mittee ;  which  is  in  the  following  words : 

Resolved,  That  the  number  of  members  in  the  Senate  of  this  State  ought  to  be 
neither  increased  nor  diminished,  nor  the  classification  of  its  members  changed." 

Mr.  Pleasants  moved  to  amend  the  resolution  by  striking  out  all  after  the  words 
"  Resolved  that"  and  substituting  the  following: 

"  Representation  in  the  Senate  shall  be  ba.sed  on  the  whole  number  of  free  persons, 
including  those  bound  to  service  for  a  term  of  years,  and  excluding  Indians  not  taxed, 
and  adding  to  the  aforesaid  number  of  free  persons,  three-fifths  of  all  other  persons, 
and  the  Senate  shall  consist  of  a  number  not  exceeding  ,  and  its  term  of  service 

and  classification  remain  as  at  present." 

Mr.  Pleasairts  said,  that  he  was  not  very  sanguine  in  the  hope  that  the  resolution 
which  he  had  the  honour  to  submit,  would  be  carried  by  a  large  majority,  but  he  hoped 
that  something  would  be  done  ;  that  a  meeting  of  the  two  parties  into  which  the  ques- 
tion had  divided  the  Committee,  would  take  place.  It  was  a  subject  of  serious  con- 
sideration what  must  be  done.  He  observed  at  the  time,  that  this  mode  of  basing  re- 
presentation in  the  Senate  was  not  acceded  to  by  some  of  his  friends.  Provided  that 
any  gentleman  thought  the  compound  basis  preferable,  he  was  at  liberty  to  modify  his 
proposition.  Such  mode  was  suggested  by  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier,  but  it  did 
not  meet  his  approbation. 

He  would  take  the  liberty  of  making  a  few  remarks  in  support  of  his  proposition. 
The  first  idea  which  suggested  itself  to  him  was,  to  base  the  Senate  on  Federal  num- 
bers, or  three-fifths  of  the  slaves.  His  proposition,  he  thought,  was  more  simple,  less 
complex,  and  less  fluctuating  than  the  other  mode.  Besides,  it  produced  nearly  the 
same  results  as  taxation  and  numbers  combined.  Under  these  circumstances,  it  was 
preferable  to  the  mixed  basis.  He  would  add  another  reason  which  was  mentioned 
out  of  doors,  and  which  suggested  itself  to  him.  There  was  a  strong  objection  to  re- 
ject the  Federal  numbers,  as  it  would  give  a  plausible  pretext  to  the  other  States  to 
disturb  the  Federal  basis  in  the  United  States,  and  to  take  away  the  influence  of  the 
Southern  States.  This  idea  would  reconcile  even  those  who  were  fanatical  (if  he 
might  be  permitted  to  use  that  term,)  in  their  attachment  to  the  other  basis.  In  any 
amendment  hereafter  proposed  by  the  States  to  the  Constitution,  such  a  pretext  could 
not  be  assumed.  These  were  the  reasons  why  he  gave  the  basis  of  Federal  numbers 
a  preference. 

He  was  sanguine  in  the  hope  that  this  proposition  would  be  adopted,  as  it  would 
afford  every  security  against  the  unequal  taxation  which  was  apprehended  from  basing 
the  House  of  Delegates  on  numbers  alone.  A  Senate  so  constituted,  particularly 
when  its  numbers  are  extended,  (as  he  hoped  it  would  be  extended  to  thirty-six,  and  he 
intended  to  fill  the  blank  with  that  number,)  it  would  give  every  degree  of  security 
which  could  be  wished  for.  He  was  satisfied  in  the  behef,  that  security  would  be  ob- 
tained— he  used  the  word  security,  as  gentlemen  objected  to  a  guarantee — if  the  Senate 
was  so  constituted.  He  may  be  mistaken,  though  he  had  not  much  confidence  in  his 
opinion,  but  it  would  have  the  effect  he  mentioned,  if  the  basis  were  so  modified. 
He  adverted  to  the  resolution  offered  by  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier,  which  was  in 
the  following  words : 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


447 


"  Resolved,  That  in  the  apportionment  of  representation  in  the  Senate,  regard  shall 
be  had  to  taxation  exclusively  ;  that  the  Senate  shall  consist  of  tliirty-six  members, 
and  siiall  have  the  same  legislative  powers,  in  all  respects,  as  the  House  of  Delegates, 
and  all  appointments  referred  by  the  Constitution  to  both  branches  of  the  Legislature, 
shall  be  made  by  a  concurrent  vote  of  both  Houses." 

This  appeared  to  him  to  give  to  the  Senate  a  power  of  originating  tax  bills — to  give 
them  a  concurrent  power.  Even  the  L  nited  States'  Senate  has  not  this  power — it 
was  prohibited  by  the  Constitution.  But  if  this  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from 
Fauquier  prevail,  it  will  crive  to  the  Senate  a  power  of  originating  money  bills  which 
is  not  enjoyed  by  any  other  Senate.  He  had  a  strong  predilection  for  his  proposition. 
He  had  no' hesitation  to  allow  the  Senate  to  exercise  the  power  of  a  veto  on  the  mea- 
sures of  the  House  of  Delegates.  He  had  experience  in  this  matter,  and  he  preferred 
the  practice  of  the  Virginia  Senate  to  that  of  the  United  States.  The  last  year  he 
had  the  honour  to  serve  in  the  Senate  of  the  United  States,  it  reported  almost  as  many 
bills  as  the  House  of  Representatives.  It  was  customary  to  present  memorials  to 
the  Senate,  and  to  originate  bills  thereon,  after  they  had  been  rejected  by  the  House 
of  Representatives,  He  recollected  this  perfectly.  He  had  no  doubt,  that  this  sub- 
ject being  so  long  under  the  consideration  of  the  Committee,  gentlemen  had  made 
up  their  minds  upon  it.  He  would  therefore  leave  it  to  the  consideration  of  the 
Committee.  He  was  prepared  to  listen  to  the  arguments  of  gentlemen,  and  he  would 
adopt  that  proposition  which  to  him  appeared  best. 

Mr.  Doddridge  moved  to  amend  the  amendment  by  striking  out  all  after  the  word 
"  based,''  and  inserting  the  following  : 

"On  the  whole  number  of  free  white  persons,  including  those  bound  to  service  for 
a  term  of  years,  and  taxation  combined." 

Mr.  Tazewell  submitted  to  the  Chair  whether  the  motion  was  in  order.  The  ffen- 
tleraan  from  Goochland,  (I\Ir.  Pleasants.)  had  moved  an  amendment  to  the  original 
proposition — the  o-entleman  from  Fauquier,  (Mr.  Scott.)  had  moved  an  araendmient  to 
that  amendment^  and  now  the  gentleman  from  Brooke  offers  an  amendment  to  an 
amendment. 

The  Chair  decided  that  the  motion  was  in  order.  The  gentleman  from  Fkuquier 
havmor  merely  given  notice  of  his  intention  to  offer  an  amendment  at  a  proper  time, 
but  not  having  offered  it. 

x*Ir.  C.  Johnson  said,  no  difficulty  on  the  point  of  order  could  arise  in  regard  to  this 
proposition,  nor  would  any  difficulty  be  thrown  in  the  way  of  the  gentleman  from 
Fauquier.  The  question  now  before  the  Committee,  related  to  the  comparative  merits 
of  the  two  propositions  relative  to  the  Federal  and  the  compound  basis.  Whether 
he  should  afterwards  prefer  the  simple  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier  to 
both,  he  could  not  now  say  ;  but  he  did  not  hesitate  to  say  that  of  the  propositions  now 
presented  to  him  for  his  choice,  the  Federal  and  compound  basis,  he  should  prefer  the 
Federal  numbers.  He  knew  that  on  the  minds  of  the  people  there  was  an  unpleasant 
impression  respecting  the  introduction  of  the  Federal  numbers  in  any  way  into  the 
State  Constitution,  but  he  was  not  to  be  deluded  by  names.  He  looked  to  the  cha- 
racter of  the  thing,  and  examined  the  consequences,  whether  if  the  mixed  basis  or 
the  Federal  numbers  were  adopted,  the  apportionment  of  power  would  be  nearly  the 
same.  He  was  induced  to  favour  the  principles  of  the  Federal  numbers,  because  it 
was  simple  in  its  character,  easy  to  be  ascertained,  known  to  the  laws,  had  been 
habitually  applied  in  prrretice — was  not  variable  at  the  will  of  the  Legislature,  nor 
leaving  with  them  the  discretion  to  change  it  as  they  might  think  fit.  The  compound 
basis  was  liable  to  these  objections,  and  this  led  him  to  vote  for  the  Federal  numbers, 
and  against  this  amendment. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said  he  would  make  but  a  very  few  remarks.  If  any  thing  was 
due  to  the  feelings  of  those,  who,  if  not  the  majority,  are  a  large  minority,  it  should 
impress  itself  now.  If  the  East  should  obtain  the  mixed  basis  in  either  House,  the 
Western  people  will  believe  it  to  be  an  improper  decision  of  the  Convention.  As  to 
numbers,  if  there  be  any  diange,  he  would  prefer  to  that,  the  combined  basis  of  per- 
sons and  taxation.  The  effect  would  not  be  the  same.  The  people  of  colour  in  the 
East  were  increasincf  in  a  ratio  greater  than  the  wliites.  From  1790,  the  ratio  of  in- 
crease of  blacks  had  been  forty-four  and  a  fraction,  while  that  of  the  whites  had  been 
but  thirty-six  and  a  fraction.  The  increase  of  the  blacks  will  be  still  greater  hereaf- 
ter. By  the  increase  of  population,  and  the  improvement  of  the  lands  in  the  West, 
the  amount  of  taxes  made  to  the  revenue  has  increased,  and  its  burdensome  relation 
to  the  General  Government  has  diminished.  As  to  the  propositions  before  the  Com- 
mittee, he  was  disposed  to  go  far  for  the  purpose  of  conciliation.  If  harmony  could 
be  produced,  it  would  be  almost  sufficient  to  reconcile  him  to  any  sacrifice.  Still  if 
we  must  submit,  it  was  but  fair  to  allow  us  a  choice. 

One  word  more  :  propositions  have  been  made  to  increase  the  number  of  the  Senate. 
He  from  reflection  was  particularly  opposed  to  such  an  increase.  If  we  retain  the 
number  twenty-four  in  the  Senate,  we  have  a  divisor  of  the  House  of  Delegates. 


448 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Concurring  in  the  views  of  gentlemen  on  the  other  side  so  far,  as  to  be  unwilling  to 
disturb  the  existing  Constitution  where  there  is  no  absolute  occasion  for  it,  he  was 
desirous  to  have  it  undisturbed  in  this  particular.  To  twenty-four  as  the  number  of 
the  Senate,  we  have  been  long  accustomed.  For  all  the  purposes  of  a  check  it  is 
sufficient.  The  Senate  has  heretofore  been  what  it  was  intended  to  be — a  body  of 
calm,  reflecting  men,  not  disturbed  by  any  agitation  originating  with  themselves,  but 
having  time  to  regulate  and  check  those  of  the  other  branch— having  in  fact  a  much 
more  elevated  and  useful  duty  to  perform  than  merely  to  dot  the  i's  and  cross  the  t's 
of  the  other  body.  The  proportion  of  bills  from  the  House  of  Delegates  which  had 
been  rejected  in  the  Senate  had  been  large — it  was  less  than  usual  at  the  last  session — 
he  beheved  about  ten.  Some  of  these  were  bills  which  in  their  passage  in  the  House - 
of  Delegates  excited  considerable  sensation.  There  was  one  bill  which  wa.s  Jive  times 
rejected  during  a  single  session,  and  its  discussion  lengthened  the  session  about  a 
week.  A  great  excitement  prevailed  in  the  Capitol  on  that  occasion,  but  he  believed 
that  it  did  not  extend  beyond  the  Capitol.  He  mentioned  this  for  the  purpose  of  shew- 
ing, that  the  Senate  was  a  serious  check  on  the  other  House,  particularly  in  relation 
to  revenue  bills,  and  he  had  never  heard  any  complaints  of  that  body.  He  was  willing 
to  increase  the  number,  if  that  would  give  the  Senate  a  larger  scope  of  action,  but 
this  would  depend  on  the  collateral  increase  of  public  confidence.  He  who  had 
greater  confidence  in  large  bodies  than  in  small  ones,  would  wish  to  increase  the 
number,  in  order  to  increase  the  influence  of  the  Senate.  But  he  who  thinks  that  in 
small  bodies  there  exists  a  greater  proportion  of  wisdom  and  stability,  will  not  wish 
to  increase  the  number.  Thinking  a  small  body  better  calculated  to  proceed  with 
caution  and  wisdom,  his  confidence  was  in  the  opposite  ratio  to  numbers.  He  there- 
fore had  more  confidence  in  a  Senate  of  twenty-four  members,  than  he  should  have 
in  one  of  twice  that  number.  If  an  increase  is  not  called  for  by  the  people,  why  should 
the  Senate  be  increased  ?  The  people  are  taught  to  believe  that  one  of  the  motives  for 
the  diminution  of  the  number  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  is  to  diminish  the  ordinary 
expenses  of  the  Legislature.  Instead  of  a  diminution,  an  increase  of  expenditure 
must  be  the  result  of  an  increase  of  the  number  of  the  Senate.  He  hoped  there 
would'be  no  diversity  of  opinions  on  this  subject.  It  had  been  already  said,  that  the 
Senate  was  deprived  of  the  power  to  originate  bills,  or  schemes  of  finance,  and  this 
leaves  them  sufficient  time  for  deliberation  and  digestion.  Here  then  we  have  some- 
thing by  which  to  demonstrate  that  the  Senate  deliberates  more  than  the  House  of 
Delegates,  and  we  have  found  it  to  be  so.  An  augmentation  of  the  number  would 
be  productive  of  an  increased  expenditure,  both  on  account  of  the  addition  to  the 
present  number,  and  of  the  lengthening  of  the  session.  He  hoped  that  his  amend- 
ment would  be  favourably  received  by  the  Committee. 

Mr.  Leigh  in  rising  to  address  the  Chair,  said  that  he  would  not  enter  into  any 
comparison  between  the  two  propositions.  Both  of  them  were  abhorrent  to  his  ideas. 
He  desired  a  different  basis.  He  merely  intended  to  remark  on  the  argument  which 
had  been  used  by  the  gentleman  from  Brooke,  in  comparing  it  with  the  argument 
which  the  gentleman  had  used  in  the  discussion  of  the  white  basis.  The  gentleman 
now  tells  us  that  as  the  population  of  the  West  increases,  taxation  will  also  increase; 
that  the  slaves  are  increasing  in  the  West  in  a  greater  ratio  than  in  the  East,  but 
that  the  increase  of  power  in  the  West  would  not  be  in  proportion.  Now,  he  had  un- 
derstood the  other  day,  that  considering  the  course  taken  by  the  States  of  Ohio  and 
Pennsylvania  as  the  cause,  slave  property  had  not  increased  in  the  West.  If  there  is 
to  be  this  increase  of  slaves  in  the  West,  cannot  the  W^est  obtain  the  power  which 
they  wish  by  taxation,  in  the  Senate,  as  they  would  surely  have  it  in  the  House  of 
Delegates  ?  He  might  have  misunderstood  the  gentleman  from  Brooke,  but  he  could 
not  avoid  considering  his  two  arguments  in  opposition  to  each  other. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  he  could  not  suppose  his  argument  on  the  basis  of  Representa- 
tion in  the  House,  was  at  all  forgotten.  The  question  in  the  discussion  was  this, 
whether  if  the  power  was  in  the  West,  there  would  not  be  danger  of  oppression  to 
the  slave-holder  in  the  East.''  To  prove  that  there  was  no  danger,  he  shewed  the  pro- 
bability of  the  increase  of  slaves  on  the  Western  waters.  With  the  slaves  already 
there,  and  their  natural  increase,  there  would  be  an  increasing  confidence  in  the  East 
that  they  had  nothing  of  injury  to  themselves  to  apprehend.  But  now  he  was  pro- 
ceeding to  shew,  however  it  may  be,  that  we  should  be  less  oppressed — for,  oppression 
it  would  still  be — we  should  have  less  to  fear  from  the  principle  of  taxation  and  num- 
bers, than  from  the  Federal  numbers.  He  begged  to  bring  the  view  of  the  gentleman 
to  the  present  state  of  the  country.  The  lands  from  the  head  of  tide-water  to  the 
ocean,  are  nearly  worn  out;  so  are  they  in  a  great  degree,  worn  out  between  tide- 
water and  the  Blue  Ridge.  There  is  not  much  to  be  gained,  therefore,  in  those  parts 
of  the  State,  from  any  system  of  reclaiming  culture.  There  might  be  something 
gained  by  increased  persons  and  population.  He  believed  there  was  no  inconsistency 
in  the  arguments  he  had  advanced.  He  had  alluded  to  the  vast  number  of  slaves  on 
this  side  the  Blue  Ridge,  and  the  ratio  of  increase  as  compared  with  the  ratio  of  in- 


DEBATES   OF   THE   CONVENTION.  *  449 


crease  to  the  West.  How  was  it  possible  for  him  to  hving  any  tiling  which  could 
occur  in  the  West,  to  counterpoise  this  increase  in  the  East  ? 

Mr.  Leiffh  rejoined  :  He  said,  this  was  a  singular  kind  of  explanation — under  pre- 
tence of  explanation  the  gentleman  had  taken  the  floor  from  him,  and  interposed  in 
the  midst  of  remarks  he  was  making,  a  new  argument  on  the  point  in  debate.  He 
did  not  admit  the  explanation  as  satrsfactory,  and  urged  and  enforced  the  charge  of 
inconsistency.  He  was  indifferent  which  plan  should  prevail :  he  objected  to  arsenic 
as  much  in  a  preserved  cherry,  as  in  a  preserved  straic berry.  It  had  been  latel}'  ne- 
cessary to  administer  calomel  to  a  little  son  of  his,  and  sweetmeats  were  employed  to 
cover  "it;  but  the  child  could  not  be  deceived  by  it;  neither  could  his  father  by  a 
similar  process.  The  mixed  basis  in  the  House  of  Delegates  had  been  opposed  on 
principle  as  "  aristocracy."  The  principle  here  was  the  same,  though  not  the  degree; 
and  were  the  Dfentlemen  on  the  other  side  in  favour  of  an  "  aristocracy"  to  a  degree 
The  only  way  lie  could  conceive  to  account  for  their  apparent  inconsistency,  was  in 
their  conviction  (in  which  he  agreed)  -ihat  the  mixed  basis  in  the  Senate  would  be 
valueless,  and  no  effectual  security  whatever  against  the  power  of  the  House  of  De- 
legates. He  said  that  he  had  a  peculiarity  of  temper,  which  rendered  him  perfectly 
indifferent  to  the  cliarge  of  aristocrac}^  imputed  to  him  personally,  but  at  the  same  time 
very  sensitive  to  the  imputation  of  aristocracy  to  any  measures  or  principles,  wliich 
lie  thought  calculated  to  advance  the  general  weal. 

Mr.  Doddridge  rose  to  suggest  a  smgle  remark.  The  proposition  assumed,  had 
been  treated  aslf  it  had  originated  with  tlrem.  If  a  physician  present  me  with  two 
pills — one  more  nauseous  than  the  other,  I  am  surely  at  liberty  to  select  which  I  will 
take.  I  regard  either  the  mixed  basis,  or  the  Federal  basis,  as  an  evil ;  but  I  suppose 
one  or  the  other  must  be  taken,  and  I  must  take  that  which  is  the  least  nauseous. 

Mr.  Mercer  suggested,  that  as  they  had  a  Constitution,  and  were  called  to 
amend  it,  if  they  could  not  get  what  they  esteemed  the  best  amendment,  they  must 
then  try  and  get  the  second  best.  If  he  must  swallow  either  arsenic  or  calomel,  he 
should  preferlhe  calomel,  [f  his  child  was  very  sick,  and  in  great  pain,  it  might  pos- 
sibly be  induced  to  swallow  arsenic  itself,  (which,  administered  in  a  certain  measure, 
may  be  taken  without  injury.)  to  continuing  under  the  pain  it  endured.  They  had 
never  advocated  the  propriety  of  basing  representation  on  property,  and,  therefore, 
the  charge  of  inconsistency  did  not  hold.  The  existing  Constitution  bases  Represen- 
tation, neither  on  property  nor  numbers,  but  on  an  arbitrary  arrangement  of  districts, 
by  which  one  hundred  and  eighty  thousand  men  were  made  to  out-vote  four  hundred 
and  twenty  thousand:  and  by  which,  one  man  on  the  sea-board,  was  made  equal  to 
twenty-seven  men  in  the  interior.  He  remarked  to  Mr.  Pleasants,  that  if  the  Senate 
remained  of  its  present  number,  he  should  vote  for  allo-Rung  it  concurrent  power  with 
the  House  of  Delegates,  in  the  joint  election  of  ofScers;  but  not,  if  its  numbers  were 
enlarged. 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  jNIr.  Doddridge's  amendment,  and  decided  in  tlie 
negative  :  Ayes  34,  Noes  59. 

(Messrs.  Madison,  Monroe  and  Marshall,  all  voting  against  it.) 

So  the  Committee  refused  to  sanction  the  mixed  basis  in  the  Senate. 

jNIr.  Scott  now  moved  the  amendment  he  had  formerly  read,  and  which  is  in  the 
following  words : 

^'  Eesolrcd,  That  in  the  apportionment  of  representation  in  tlie  Senate,  regard  shall 
he  had  to  taxation  exclusive!}^ ;  that  the  Senate  shall  consist  of  thirty-six  members, 
and  shall  have  the  same  legislative  powers,  in  all  respects,  as  the  House  of  Delegates; 
and  all  appointments  referred  by  the  Constitution  to  both  branches  of  the  Legislature, 
shall  be  made  by  a  concurrent  vote  of  both  Houses." 

The  question  being  taken,  the  amendment  was  negatived :  Ayes  39,  Noes  54. 

(Messrs.  ^Madison.  Marshall  and  Giles  voting /o?-  it.) 

The  question  then  recurring  on  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Pleasants, 

Mr.  Joynes  moved  to  fill  the  blank  for  tlie  number  of  Senators,  and  to  strike  out 
the  words  "  a  number  not  exceeding." 

The  motion  was  negatived  :  Ayes  42.  Noes  51. 

(Messrs.  Madison  and  Marshall  in  the  affirmative,  Monroe  and  Giles  in  the  ne- 
gative.) 

Mr.  Summers  now  moved  to  fill  the  blank  with  the  number  tlmty-two;  3Ir.  Brod- 
nax  with  forty-eight,  and  ]Mr.  Doddridge  with  twenty-four. 

Mr.  Upshur  expressed  his  desire  to  see  some  Constitution  formed  which  should  be 
acceptable  to  the  people  ;  and  if  there  should  be  such  a  distribution  of  power  between 
the  two  Houses  as  he  could  approve,  he  should  vote  in  favour  of  the  plan.  But  this 
he  would  never  do,  unless  there  was  a  large  increase  in  the  number  of  the  Senate. 
Without  this,  it  was  vain  to  tell  him  of  anv-  security.  Give  us.  said  he.  such  a  num- 
ber as  will  at  least  afford  us,  in  our  own  view,  somethino-  like  security.  Ever}-  feelino- 
of  my  heart  would  urofe  me  to  the  most  amicable  com'se.  I  have  none  but  the  most 
friendly  feeling  toward  those  whose  views  differ  from  mine.    Yet.  I  must  be  per- 

57 


450 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


mitted  to  say,  that  it  is,  in  effect,  (though  not  in  their  intention,)  a  mere  mockery 
to  tell  us  of  security,  while  they  adopt  such  a  basis  for  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  and 
are  pursuing  a  course  to  render  the  Senate  as  little  of  a  check  upon  the  other 
House  as  possible.  Even  there  my  best  feelings  lead  me  to  meet  them  (a  compro- 
mise is  out  of  the  question,)  on  such  ground  as  will  permit  us  to  beheve  that  we 
have  some  security.  I  believe  that  I  could  be  contented  with  some  modification  of 
the  Senate.  Nothing  would  delight  me  more,  than  to  be  able  to  go  home  and 
advise  my  constituents  to  adopt  the  Constitution.  But  if  gentlemen  will  base  the 
House  of  Delegates  on  tlie  wJiite  population,  and  then  refuse  to  give  us  more  than 
twenty-four  members  in  the  Senate,  they  afford  us  no  security,  and  their  very  best 
friends  on  our  side  of  the  House  will  be  driven  from  them.  1  could  wish  a  Senate 
of  forty-eight  members,  but  I  will  be  content  with  thirty-six.  Lower  than  this,  I 
cannot  go. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  he  had  no  doubt  the  gentleman  would  be  gratified  to  see  the 
Constitution  adopted  ;  but  if  he  wished  to  send  a  Constitution  to  the  people,  which 
they  could  not  accept,  he  was  taking  the  very  course  to  do  it.  The  people  already  are 
represented  on  the  white  basis  in  the  Senate  :  they  stood  as  they  wished  in  that 
branch  of  the  Government.  You  then  proposed  to  afford  us  a  correction  of  the  evils 
of  which  we  complained,  by  a  new  basis  in  the  House  of  Delegates;  but  now  you 
are  for  taking  away  from  us  all  the  relief  we  got  in  1816,  and  you  propose  to  turn  the 
Senate,  in  effect,  into  a  new  House  of  Delegates,  adding  to  the  basis  three-fifths  of 
your  slaves,  and  giving  such  a  Senate  the  power  to  originate  all  bills.  If  this  is  to 
prevail,  our  evils  will  only  have  changed  sides,  and  we  shall  be  worse  off  than  we  were 
before. 

Mr.  Baldwin,  after  some  remarks  upon  the  difficulty  of  their  situation,  proposed  to 
lay  the  present  resolution  on  the  table,  until  that  fixing  the  basis  of  representation 
should  be  settled.  Let  there  be  a  full,  fair,  and  manly  compromise  on  that  subject, 
and  then  give  gentlemen  as  large  a  Senate  as  they  desire.  He  declared  himself  in  a 
clear  and  emphatic  manner,  as  opposed  to  all  higgling.  He  concluded  with  submit- 
ting a  motion  to  lay  the  resolution  upon  the  table. 

Mr.  Mercer  suggested,  that  a  better  course  would  be,  to  append  the  resolution  with 
respect  to  the  basis  of  representation  to  the  present  resolution,  in  the  form  of  an 
amendment,  but 

Mr.  Baldwin,  not  accepting  this  suggestion,  persisted  in  his  motion  to  lay  on  the 
table. 

Mr.  Naylor  was  opposed  to  it,  wishing  first  to  know  what  price  he  was  to  get,  if  he 
consented  to  a  compromise.    Before,  however,  any  vote  was  taken. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Baldwin,  the  Committee  rose,  and  thereupon  the  House  adjourned. 


WEDNESDAY,  November  25, 1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Armstrong  of  the  Presbyterian  Church. 

The  House  then  went  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  Powell  in  the  Chair  ; 
and  the  question  being  on  the  several  numbers  proposed  wherewith  to  fall  the  blank 
in  the  resolution,  fixing  the  number  of  members  in  the  Senate, 

Mr.  Bayly  rose  and  said,  that  he  would  take  this  opportunity  of  proposing  that 
the  blank  should  be  filled  with  the  word  forty. 

He  did  not  believe  that  the  nuniber  forty-eight,  which  had  been  proposed  by  the 
gentleman  from  Brunswick,  (Mr.  Brodnax,)  would  be  agreed  to,  and  the  number 
thirty-six  had  been  rejected.    He  had  offered  forty,  and  would  explain  his  reasons. 

When  I  first  sav/  (said  Mr.  B.)  the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  declaring 
that  the  present  number  of  the  Senate  (twenty-four,)  should  neither  be  increased  nor 
diminished,  I  had  determined  to  vote  against  the  resolution  ;  for  I  had  believed,  before 
I  came  to  this  Convention,  that  forty  members  would  not  make  the  Senate  too  large. 
The  proposition  is,  therefore,  not  made  in  reference  to  the  basis  of  representation  in 
the  House  of  Delegates,  nor  did  it  originate  with  me  to  affect  any  principle  of  com- 
promising that  great  question,  which  agitates  this  Assembly.  On  most  occasions,  I 
do  not  like  compromising  rights,  but  some  concessions  must  be  made;  and  if  the 
Senate  can  be  so  constituted,  as  to  effect  that  most  desirable  object,  it  must  be  by  in- 
creasing their  number,  and  giving  them  concurrent  power  to  originate  laws.  I  shall, 
however,  advocate  the  motion  entirely  upon  its  own  merits,  because  I  am  convinced, 
that  constitute  the  House  of  Delegates  as  you  please,  and  make  the  number  of  mem- 
bers one  hundred  and  twenty,  or  more,  your  Senate  ought  to  be  one-third  the  whole 
number  of  Delegates,  and  with  equal  powers  of  legislation. 

Sir,  I  have  had  some  experience  on  this  subject.  By  the  old  Constitution,  "  all 
laws  must  originate  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  to  be  approved  of  or  rejected  by  the 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


451 


Senate,  or  to  be  amended  -vrith  the  consent  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  except  money 
bills,  -which,  in  no  instance  shall  be  altered  by  the  Senate,  but  whoUy  approved  or  re- 
jected;" and  under  this  power  of  amendment,  many  of  the  most  important  laws  now 
in  your  Code,  have  been  introduced  original  bills  in  the  Senate  and  concurred  in  by 
the  House  of  Delegates,  as  amendments  to  bills  sent  to  the  Senate;  for  example,  the 
House  of  Delegates  pass  an  act.  making  a  trivial  alteration  in  the  law  respecting  the 
Courts,  and  the  Senate  amend,  by  striking  out  the  whole  after  the  enacting  clause, 
and  re-model  the  Judiciary  system,  not  as  it  relates  to  one  Court  only,  but  to  every 
Court :  for,  the  title  of  the  bill  has  given  the  power,  and  the  Constitution  jurisdiction, 
by  the  term  amendment. 

The  Senate  do  not  consider  their  power,  by  this  word  amendment,  restricted  merely 
to  verbal  or  critical  alterations.  You  had  better  expressly  give  equal  power  of  origi- 
nating laws  to  both  Houses  of  the  General  Assembly,  and  Thereby  prevent  collisions 
between  them,  than  to  permit  it  to  be  used  by  implication,  which  has  heretofore  pro- 
tracted the  sessions  many  days.  On  one  occasion  the  Senate  amended  the  appropri- 
ation bill,  and  were  unanimous,  that  they  had  the  right;  the  House  of  Delegates  re- 
jected the  bill  and  amendment,  with  unanimity,  denying  the  right  to  the  Senate,  and 
insisted,  that  an  appropriation  is  a  money  bill.  In  that  instance  only,  did  the  Senate 
succeed  against  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  maintained  the  doctrine,  that  laws  laying 
the  taxes  were  the  money  bills  contemplated  by  the  Constitution,  and  that  when  the 
money  was  in  the  Treasury,  the  Senate  had  equal  power  over  it.  Sir,  the  Senators  are 
equally  the  representatives  of  the  people,  and  have  no  interest  separate  and  distinct 
from  them ;  this  jealousy  of  the  two  Houses  of  Assembly  towards  each  other,  ought 
to  be  guarded  against  by  the  Constitution  we  are  endeavoring  to  make,  by  conferring 
upon  the  Senate  the  authority  to  originate  any  bills,  even  monei/  bills.  This  restric- 
tion upon  the  Senate  respecting  money  bills,  is  borrowed  from'  the  Constitution  of 
England  into  our  own.  It  is  refused  to  the  Upper  House  of  Parliament  to  lav  the 
taxes,  because  the  Lords  do  not  derive  their  power  from  the  people,  are  created  by 
the  Crown,  and  have  a  separate  and  distinct  interest  from  the  Commons.  ?so  such 
reason  exists  in  this  country. 

Should  this  power  be  given  to  the  Senate,  they  will  freely  confer  with  the  Dele- 
gates, and  each  knowing  what  acts  of  Legislation  it  is  necessary  to  pass  for  the  good 
of  the  State,  both  Houses  will  be  employed  at  the  same  time  perfecting  the  public 
business  upon  different  subjects.  But  now,  the  Senate  after  eight  or  ten  days  session, 
adjourn  for  two  or  three  weeks,  because  the  House  of  Delegates  before  that  time,  will 
not  probably  pass  any  important  bills,  and  the  Senators  having  nothing  to  act  upon, 
some  go  home,  others  remain  without  any  public  duties  to  perform.  Give  the  Senate 
power  to  originate  bills,  and  all  will  be  right. 

The  Senate  of  the  United  States  may  be  compared  to  an  Assembly  of  Ambassadors, 
representing  Sovereign  States,  and  their  duties  are  complicated  and  various  :  they 
participate  in  and  greatly  control  the  Government  in  the  policy  towards  foreign  na- 
tions :  this,  with  their  Executive  duties,  which  is  often  very  perplexinof,  occupies 
as  much  of  their  time  as  is  bestowed  on  Legislative  business ;  and  yet,  the}-  possess 
equal  power  in  originating  laws  as  the  House  of  Representatives.  I  may  appeal  with 
confidence  to  genflemen  in  this  Convention,  who  now  are  or  have  been  members  of 
the  Senate  of  Virginia,  to  say  whether  the  power  to  originate  bills  would  not  greatly 
contribute  to  shorten  the  sessions  of  the  General  Assembly. 

The  long  and  expensive  sessions  was  one  great  cause  for  calling  the  Convention, 
though  it  certainly  was  not  the  leading  cause.  The  House  of  Delegates  now  consists 
of  two  hundred  and  fourteen  members ;  the  Senate  of  twenty-four.  If  we  organize 
the  House  of  Delegates  with  one  hundred  and  twenty  members  and  the  Senate  with 
forty,  the  General  Assembly  will  be  reduced  seventy-eight  members,  which  will 
shorten  the  sessions  perhaps  one-fifth  of  their  usual  length  of  late  years,  which,  toge- 
ther with  the  reduction  of  tlie  members,  we  may  calculate  on  a  saving  of  public  money 
of  40  or  50,000  dollars  annually,  and  have  the  business  of  the  State  better  done. 

The  last  General  Assembly  was  in  session  ninety  days,  and  cost  the  State  106,773 
dollars  85  cents,  which  v-^as  more  than  1200  dollars  a  day.  The  mem^orable  General 
Assembly  of  179S,  was  in  session  f]ft3--three  days.  The  "Delen-ates  were  one  hundred 
and  seventy-nine:  the  pay  of  the  members  being  two  dollars  a  day,  the  whole  ex- 
penses of  the  session  were  8  29,332  tiO.  The  General  Assembly  the  next  year,  1799, 
continued  in  session  fifty-seven  days  ;  the  daily  pay  of  the  members  was  raised  to  three 
dollars,  and  the  expenses  of  that  session  w-ere  S40.631  19.  And  I  believe  it  is  uni- 
versally admitted,  these  two  General  Assemblies  possessed  more  eloquence,  talents 
and  wisdom.,  than  any  that  has  ever  since  assembled  in  Virginia. 

The  present  number  of  the  Senate,  twenty-four,  is  too  small :  the  House  is  considered 
very  full  with  twenty  members,  and  many  of  the  most  important  laws  now  in  the 
Code,  were  passed  into  laws  by  not  more  than  eight  or  nine  votes,  and  with  a  majority 
of  one  or  two.  This  is  too  small  a  number  of  men  to  give  law  to  this  Commonwealth, 
or  to  controul  the  immediate  representatives  of  the  people,  if  they  fall  into  error.  In- 


452 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


crease  their  number,  give  them  employment  by  originating  laws,  and  the  State  will 
have  the  benefit  of  their  wisdom,  experience  and  industry  ^  the  business  of  legislation 
will  progress  equally  in  the  two  Houses,  with  harmony  and  expedition,  and  Vv^ill  have 
the  confidence  of  the  people. 

In  1776,  when  the  Constitution  was  made,  the  Convention  then  wisely  fixed  the 
number  of  the  Senate  to  twenty-four.  At  that  time  the  population  was  not  one-half 
what  it  now  is,  and  was  condensed  on  the  East  of  the  mountain;  it  was  then  abso- 
lutely necessar}'-  to  have  a  most  economical  Government :  a  revolution  was  com- 
mencing, and  the  State  had  little  money  or  credit.  There  were  twenty  districts  below 
the  Blue  Pv.idge,  and  they  were  small:  the  local  interest  well  known  and  respected; 
and  should  the  number  be  increased  to  forty,  each  district  will  contain  more  popula- 
tion, than  under  the  present  Government,  when  first  put  into  operation,  and  for  many 
3^ears  afterwards.  The  Senate  must  represent  the  people,  and  the  Representative 
should  be  known  personally  to  a  large  portion  of  his  constituents,  to  obtain  their  con- 
fidence and  respect :  this  will  not  be  the  case  in  large  districts. 

Examine  the  Map  of  Virginia  and  the  position  of  the  water  courses,  and  more  es- 
pecially the  district  I  have  the  honor  in  part  to  represent.  Two  counties  on  the  Eastern 
Shore,  Accomack  and  Northampton,  and  three  on  the  Western  Shore,  Gloucester, 
Matthews  and  Middlesex,  separated  by  the  Mediterranean  of  the  United  States,  the 
Chesapeake.  On  the  East  of  that  water,  the  trade  is  to  New  York,  the  London  of 
America,  or  to  Philadelphia,  while  the  produce  of  the  Western  Shore  of  that  Bay 
finds  a  market  within  the  Capes  of  Virginia.  The  people  of  the  district,  thus  sepa- 
rated, and  their  trade  going  to  difiierent  places,  and  having  no  intercourse,  ihej  are  as 
unknown  to  each  other,  as  if  they  resided  in  different  States.  The  Senators  who  re- 
presented that  district  the  two  last  terms  of  four  years  each,  resided  on  the  W^estern 
Shore,  and  were  unknov/n  to  the  people  on  the  Eastern  Shore  when  the  election 
commenced,  and  I  do  believe,  never  trod  on  that  land  before  they  commenced  their 
canvass.  Do  you  believe  that  these  Senators  being  unknown  to  that  people,  would 
command  their  respect  and  confidence  equal  to  a  Delegate  that  was  known  to  them, 
should  a  difterence  of  opinion  exist,  respecting  a  great  and  important  political  mea- 
sure. On  such  an  occasion,  the  people  would  espouse  the  opinions  of  that  man  who 
resided  among  them.  Before  the  great  change  of  the  Senatorial  Districts  took  place 
throughout  the  State  in  181 0,  the  Eastern  Shore  from  the  adoption  of  the  Constitution 
to  that  time,  formed  a  separate  Senatorial  District ;  and  although  one  county  had  more 
than  three  votes  to  the  other's  one,  the  people  having  great  intercourse  and  confidence 
in  each  other,  their  interests  being  the  same,  it  was  not  considered  by  them  material 
in  which  county  the  Senator  resided,  and  immediately  after  the  first  election  under 
the  Constitution,  it  was  considered  wise,  that  each  county  should  alternately  have 
one  of  its  citizens  sent  to  the  Senate,  which  arrangement  continued  forty-one  years, 
in  harmony  and  good  feeling  between  the  people  of  these  counties,  as  a  strong  illus- 
tration of  the  advantage  of  small  districts,  to  the  peace  and  happiness  of  the  country. 
The  situation  of  other  parts  of  the  State,  also  requires  the  election  districts  to  be  small. 
The  counties  of  Brooke  and  Ohio,  formed  from  a  long  strip  of  land,  bounded  by  the 
States  of  Pennsylvania  and  Ohio,  and  united  to  Virginia  by  a  line  of  fifteen  or  twenty 
miles,  and  having  more  intercourse  with  these  States  than  with  Virginia,  the  people 
of  these  counties  cannot  be  presumed  to  have  great  intercourse  with  the  pec^ple  of 
Kanawha,  so  as  to  judge  of  the  qualifications  of  the  Senator  residing  so  remote  from 
them.  The  same  argument  will  apply  to  other  parts  of  the  State,  divided  by  great 
rivers  and  mountains  :  for  example,  take  the  country  situated  between  the  wide  rivers 
of  James  and  York,  and  extending  from  Hampton  towards  Richmond,  and  before  you 
get  the  requisite  population  to  form  a  district  for  a  Senate  of  twenty-four  members  for 
the  whole  State,  you  will  pass  this  city,  and  your  district  will  be  one  hundred  and 
fifty  miles  long;  and  is  it  probable  that  the  home-staying  and  industrious  farmer,  will 
be  sufficiently  acquainted  with  the  character  and  talents  of  gentlemen  who  reside  at 
the  extremity  of  the  district,  to  give  him  his  vote  ? 

The  Northern  Neck  is  similarly  situated:  commencing  at  Smith's  Point,  and  pro- 
ceeding up  between  the  Potomac  and  Rappahannock,  before  you  form  a  district  of 
sufficient  population,  you  will  be  in  full  view  of  the  mountains.  The  same  difficulty 
is  to  be  met  with  in  some  of  the  sections  of  the  Alleghany  country.  The  Senator  from 
such  large  districts,  will  not  know  the  grievances  of  the  people,  or  their  local  interest, 
but  must  depend  for  information  upon  others,  when  called  to  act;  and  he  will  not 
lon^  possess  the  affections  of  the  people.    Sir,  should  the  Senator  put  himself  in  op- 

Eosition  to  the  five  or  six  Delegates  of  the  district,  (and  his  duty  will  often  compel 
im  so  to  do.)  and  they  go  before  the  people  supporting  their  own  views  and  opinions; 
the  Delegates  thus  united,  will  defeat  the  re-election  of  the  wisest  and  most  patriotic 
Senator  that  ever  sat  in  the  Senate-house ;  nor  will  his  virtue,  integrity  and  talents 
shield  him  against  the  attack  of  those  who  are  so  much  better  known  to  the  people. 

I  have  examined  the  Constitutions  of  several  of  the  States,  to  see  what  proportion 
of  the  number  of  members  the  two  Houses  of  the  Legislature  are  to  each  other ;  and 
I  find, 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


453 


Delaware  has  nine  Senators  and  twenty-one  Representatives  : 

North  Carolina,  sixty  Senators  and  one  hundred  and  twenty  members  of  the  House 
of  Commons  : 

Ohio,  Indiana,  Illinois  and  Tennessee,  the  Senate  shall  never  be  less  than  one-third, 
nor  more  than  one-half  of  the  number  of  R-epresentatives : 

Mississippi  and  Alabama,  the  Senate  never  less  than  one-fourth,  nor  more  than 
one-third  of  the  number  of  the  Representatives  : 

Louisiana,  the  Senate  always  fourteen,  the  Representatives  never  less  than  twen- 
ty-five, nor  more  thcui  fifty. 

"  Should  the  motion  prevail  to  fill  the  blank  as  I  have  proposed,  it  will  give  the  Se- 
nate a  controling  power,  which  it  ought  to  have,  and  make  it  such  a  representative 
body,  as  to  secure  the  respect  and  confidence  of  the  people. 

Mr.  Baldwin  explained  what  would  be  his  proposition  for  compromise,  viz  :  to  pro- 
pose the  white  basis  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  the  Federal  number  in  the  Senate, 
and  make  the  number  of  the  latter  thirtj-'Six :  but  as  it  was  not  in  order  to  move  it 
now,  he  moved  first,  that  the  Conunittee  pass  over  the  propositions  for  filling  the 
blank,  in  the  resolution  prescribing  the  numbers  of  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  if  that  motion  sliould  prevail  and  the  proposition  of  the  gen- 
tleman be  presented  to  the  Committee,  he  should  immediately  call  for  a  division  of 
the  question  upon  it,  and  take  its  pai'ts  separately. 

Mr.  fiercer  gave  notice  that  after  the  Conunittee  should  have  passed  on  the  pro- 
position of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  (Jslr.  Baldwin,)  he  should  move  the  con- 
sideration of  the  report  of  the  Executive  Committee,  with  a  view  to  settling  the 
power  of  the  Senate  before  determining  its  number.  He  would  consent  to  give  them 
concurrence  in  the  appointing  power,  if  on  the  white,  or  on  the  mixed  basis,  but  not  if 
its  number  was  to  be  so  enlarged  as  to  open  a  door  for  faction.  The  power  of  the 
Senate  would  be  more  strengthened  by  tiie  power  of  appointment  than  by  an  aug- 
mentation of  its  numbers. 

Mr.  Leigh  was  in  favour  of  passing  by  for  the  present,  the  propositions  for  fixing 
the  number  of  the  Senate,  and  then  taking  up  the  report,  not  of  the  Executive,  but 
of  the  Judicial  Committee.  He  had  in  his  mind,  a  proposal,  different  from  any  that 
had  yet  been  submitted  and  which  he  hoped  would  unite  the  assent  of  all,  (provided 
gentlemen,  as  they  said,  were  wilhng  to  give  and  take.)  but  before  he  could  announce 
it,  he  wished  to  consult  the  delegations  from  one  or  two  of  the  districts  which  would 
be  most  affected  by  the  plan,  if  they  should  refuse  their  assent,  he  would  not  pro- 
pose it. 

Mk.  Coalter  then  rose  to  address  the  Committee,  as  follows : 
I  threw  myself,  most  improperly,  and  I  now  find  unnecessaribj,  on  the  Committee 
the  other  day.  I  had  been  elsewhere  engaged,  and  knew  not  the  stage  of  the  pro- 
ceeding. 

jNIy  tHend  from  Chesterfield,  seemed  to  say  that  the  crisis  was  at  hand,  and  I  knew 
not  that  I  could  again  be  regularly  heard. 

I  am  peculiarly  situated.  I  belong,  by  birth,  groicth  and  every  kind  of  obligation  to 
the  transmontane  country. 

The  good  opinion  and  good  feeling  of  that  country  towards  me,  and  of  every  mem- 
ber of  it  on  this  floor,  is  a  cordial  which  I  will  not  have  dashed  from  my  lips  or  from 
my  heart,  if  I  can  help  it.  I  give  you  my  heart's  blood,  Sir,  freely,  if  that  will  cure 
all  the  evils  that  now  afflict  Virginia ;  but  leave  me  that  cordial. 

I  may  be  viistaken  in  my  opinions,  and  I  may  err  in  my  course  here  ;  but  I  will 
yield  to  no  native  of  the  West  in  my  love  for  the  land  of  my  birth  3  nor  in  the  anxious 
desire  I  feel  to  see  it  every  thing  which  1  know  it  is  capable  of  being. 

But,  I  now  have  iiew  interests  and  neic  connexions  on  this  side  of  that  line,  and 
these  may  lead  me  astray.  This  is  very  true,  and  I  am  very  willing  that  it  should  be 
thrown  into  the  scale,  to  weigh  against  my  judgment.  I  ought  to  weigh  it  myself 
against  myself.  The  words  of  truth  say  that  the  heart  of  man  is  deceitful,  &c.  I  may 
have  vanity  enough  to  suppose  I  am  above  this.  But  that  most  wise  and  excellent  of 
all  Governors,  Sancho  Panza,  has  said,  that  there  is  nothing  more  tain  than  vanity. 

I  knoic  I  may  be  wrong — tfcar  I  ma}'  be  wrong  in  all  I  may  say  or  do. 

I  have  seen  the  day  when  I  would  have  had  no  such  fears-^when  I  would  with  33 
little  fear  of  error,  have  drawn  a  new  Constitution  for  tliis  State — yes,  on  my  knee  in 
a  Court  yard,  as  I  would  have  drawn  a  declaration  on  a  plain  bond.  I  was'perfectly 
persuaded  that  the  great  mass  of  the  people  were  capable  of  every  thino-  ;  that  Uni- 
versal Suffrage  was  the  true  palladium  and  safeguard  of  our  rights,  founded  in  nature, 
and  that  all  mankind  must  finally  yield  to  it — that  it  was  a  mlllenium  fast  approach- 
ing— that  France  was  regenerated,  and  that  all  mankind  would  follow  in  the  train — 
America,  glorious  America  at  the  head  I  1 — that  our  Senate  was  an  aristocratic  body, 
thwarting  the  good  sense  of  the  people  in  their  Hall  of  Representatives — that  the 
Council  was  a  fungus — that  the  people  ought  to  elect  their  own  Governor,  and  their 
Executive  and  Ministerial  Officers,  civil  and  military,  for  which  they  were  created  for 


454 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


them,  and  hy  them,  and  they  alone  were  the  proper  judges  of  their  fitness  and  capa- 
city. But,  suppose  1  was  now  a  Western  man,  and  joined  with  Western  men  in  all  their 
views,  could  I  be  more  certain  that  there  was  no  alloy  of  interest,  no  feeling  that  has 
been  produced  by  excited  passions  in  myself  or  those  around  me — no  real,  or  supposed 
sense  of  past  injustice,  which  may  have  warped  my  judgment,  which  may  have  led 
me  back  to  the  visions  of  my  youth,  and  courted  me  to  go  back  to  opinions  once 
solenmly  abandoned  ?  Surely  this  would  be  a  fit  cause  for  serious  self-cxaminatiGn. 

I  have  lived.  Sir,  either  to  have  much  weaker  nerves;  or,  having  witnessed  what 
has  passed  here  and  elsewhere,  during  the  last  thirty  years,  to  have  acquired  a  sounder 
judgment,  and  a  more  correct  view  of  things — perhaps,  I  have  become  too  fearful — 
Discretion,  it  is  said,  is  the  better  part  of  valor ;  and  perhaps  a  little  fear  is  not  a  bad 
ingredient  in  a  politician,  who  is  about  to  put  forth  his  hand  to  tear  up — plant  a-new, 
or  even  to  prune  away  and  replace  portions  of  a  Government,  under  which  such  a 
people  as  these  of  Virginia  have  lived,  until  within  a  few  short  weeks,  safely  and 
happily.  I  confess  /  am  afraid — perhaps  I  have  caught  the  epidemic  which  prevails 
in  the  country.  Who  is  there  then  who  is  not  afraid  ?  Not  one  !  1  must  nerve  myself 
though,  as  well  as  I  can,  at  least  against  idle  fears. 

I  must  try  and  make  such  amendments  to  the  Constitution,  that  I  will  neither  be 
afraid  nor  ashamed  to  recommend  to  the  confidence  and  affections  of  this  people. 

But,  I  must  have  a  very  large  majority  of  this  body  to  back  me  in  it ;  or  my  strength 
will  depart  from  me. 

There  is  one  thing  which  I  now  wish  distinctly  to  make  known  to  this  body,  and 
to  my  constituents. 

It  is  of  little  consequence  to  me,  in  this,  or  any  future  stage  of  the  business,  whe- 
ther I  fall  into  the  minority  or  majority,  provided  that  minority  is  large,  or  that  majority 
is  small.  This  is  not  ordinary  legislation  ;  to  be  re-examined  at  the  next  session,  and 
the  evils,  if  any  growing  out  of  it,  corrected  with  as  much  ease  as  they  are  inflicted. 
When  we  adjourn,  we  adjourn  sine  die. 

There  is  no  locus  penitentice  left  to  us.  We  can  only  go  home,  and  as  individuals, 
oppose  or  approve  the  work  of  this  body, 

I  consider  a  large  minority  as  an  eqzial  division  of  this  body — as  a  state  of  things 
which  does  not  admit  of  final  action ;  and  if  in  the  course  of  human  events  I  am  in 
a  small  majority,  I  will  not  impose  on  a  large  minority  a  Constitution  against  which 
their  feelings  or  judgments  rebel.  I  will  vote  down  finally,  so  far  as  my  voice  goes, 
all  innovations  of  that  kind ;  as  believing  it  most  safe  and  wise  to  leave  the  present 
Constitution  as  to  such  matter,  where  we  found  it. 

If  my  constituents  disapprove  of  this,  the  sooner  they  recall  me,  the  better;  I  will 
most  willingly  obey  that  call. 

I  feel  a  responsibility  that  is  almost  deadening  to  me,  and  would  willingly  shift  it  to 
abler  hands. 

I  believe — I  cant  think  otherwise — that  I  will  be  in  a  majority,  finally,  on  this  point. 

Surely — surely,  we  are  not  prepared  to  enter  the  great  arena  of  the  human  passions, 
with  the  anathemas  of  Aristocrat — Monarchist — Oppressor  of  the  Poor — Enemy  of  the 
People,  and  of  human  rights,  on  the  one  side,  in  order  to  carry  through  our  work, — ■ 
and  with  the  denunciations  of  Demagogue — Agitator — Radical,  &c.  on  the  other ! ! 
No,  Sir ;  the  few  hairs  I  have  remaining,  rise  on  my  head  at  the  bare  supposition. 

No,  Sir;  we  were  sent  here  by  the  people,  as  their  ^wre  and  true  friends ;  to  see 
whether  we  could  confer  on  them  any  additional  Messing :  To  be  sure,  that  we  could 
confer  this  on  them,  before  we  deprived  them  of  what  they  had:  Not  to  inflict  on 
them  the  countless  miseries  which  must  arise  from  such  a  state  of  things. 

No,  Sir;  we  must  either  return  to  them  the  gold  which  they  have  entrusted  to  us, 
without  farther  alloy ;  or  we  must  purify  it  yet  more,  and  put  the  Tower  Stamp  on  it. 
This  can  only  be  done  by  a  large  majority  of  this  body. 

We  can't  return  it  to  them  mixed  up  with  the  dregs  of  contending  passions  and  in- 
terests, and  put  it  on  them  to  purify  and  refine  it. 

They  can  only  reject  such  a  mass,  and,  if  indeed  man  is  capable  of  self-government, 
they  tcill  reject  it.  They  will  say,  as  I  say,  we  will  not  impose  on  a  large  minority  of 
our  fellow-citizens  a  Constitution  which  they  think  a  bad  one,  for  one  which  they  and 
we  know  is  a  good  one.  We  may  be  mistaken;  some  of  our  wisest  men,  and  most 
tried  patriots  think  we  are  mistaken,  and  we  will  not  risk  it. 

Surely  all  would  say,  that  this  would  be  wisdom— patriotism— magnanimity  of  the 
highest  order.  But  can  we  say  that  the  great  body  of  the  people  will  take  this  course, 
if  we  set  them  a  contrary  example.?  We  are  now  to  say  whether  such  would  be  the 
correct  course.  If  we  say  no;  you  must  bandy  words  and  epithets;  call  in  the  pas- 
sions ;  avail  yourselves  of  every  prejudice.  This  is  the  way  to  establish  your  hberties 
and  the  happiness  of  the  State ;  then  indeed  the  foundation  of  the  great  deep  will  be 
opened,  and  woe  be  to  those  who  do  not  seek  safety  in  that  Ark  of  the  Covenant,  the 
old  Constitution,  which  has  borne  us  triumphantly  through  so  many  dangers  and  diffi- 
culties ! 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


455 


Impressed  with  these  views,  I  hailed  with  pleasure  unspeakable,  the  proposition  of 
my  friend  from  Augusta;  seconded  by  my  trusty  friend  and  coadjutor  on  another  in- 
teresting occasion,  troin  Hampshire,  to  see  if  a.  fair,  open,  jnanbj,  and  honourable  com- 
promise  of  contlicting  interests  and  opinions  could  not  be  made. 

They  very  wisely  want  to  see  the  quid  pro  quo ;  this  is  precisely  what  I  want  to 
see,  also. 

But,  it  seems  to  me  we  cannot  see  tliis  at  present.  There  are  other  great  interests 
to  discuss,  besides  those  which  have  been  before  the  Committee.  How  are  we  to 
ao-ree  on  tktin?  It  is  of  no  consequence  to  me  when  the  evil  is  to  creep  in,  wliich 
shall  put  it  out  of  my  power  to  vote  for  the  amendments  which  may  be  offered.  I 
might'  yield  much  on  some  points,  for  a  safe  Constitution  on  others ;  and  which  I 
would  not  yield  but  for  that  quid.  All  would  avail  nothing,  if  Mordccai  still  sits  at 
the  door ;  1  want  to  see  the  whole  ground ;  the  whole  instrument,  before  I  can  sign 
and  seal  any  part.    I  must  tear  off  my  seal,  if  I  don't  agree  to  the  whole  instrument. 

I  plead  non  est  factum — in  fact,  it  seems  to  me  impossible  to  come  to  any  available 
compromise'  until  we  have  the  whole  ground  before  us.  There  are  things  to  come 
that  may  be  equally,  or  even  more  objectiovjable  to  me,  if  possible,  than  extending  the 
Riglit  of  Suffrage,  substantially  beyond  what  it  now  is. 

i  allude  particularly  to  the  mode  to  be  agreed  on  for  electing  the  Governor.  As  to 
the  Judiciary,  I  never  have  entertained  any  fears  about  it.  1  fear  unwise  legislation 
in  regard  to  it,  it  is  true  ;  having  much  experience  on- that  point ;  but  I  have  no  fears 
as  to  the  fundamental  laws  in  regard  to  that  department ;  I  mean  as  to  the  Superior 
Courts.  As  to  the  county  magistracy,  there  may  be  danger;  but  of  what  character 
I  am  not  apprized.  These,  Sir,  are  my  views  at  present ;  I  am  not  prepared  to  pro- 
pose any  thing ;  1  thought  it  due  to  myself  to  state  candidly  what  were  my  general 
views. 

Mr.  C.  concluded  by  saying  that  he  had  not  seen  any  of  the  documents  printed  for 
the  Committee  ;  that  he  had  no  specific  propositions  to  make ;  but  that  he  would  prefer 
with  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun  (Mr.  Mercer,)  to  pass  on  to  the  Report  of  the 
Executive  Committee. 

Mr.  Baldwin  withdrew  his  motion  to  pass  by  filling  the  blank  with  numbers  for  the 
Senate;  but 

Mr.  Mercer  renewed  it,  with  a  view  to  taking  up  the  Report  of  the  Executive  Com- 
mittee. 

Mr.  Gordon,  after  some  remarks  on  his  peculiar  situation,  and  his  earnest  desire  to 
effect  a  compromise,  read  in  his  place  the  following  amendment  to  Mr.  Pleasants's 
proposition,  as  a  plan  to  effect  that  object : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Representation  in  tlie  Senate  and  House  of  Delegates  of  Vir- 
ginia, shall  be  apportioned  as  follows  :  that  is  to  say, 

There  shall  be  ten  Senators  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge  of  mountains,  and  fourteen 
East  of  those  mountains. 

"  There  shall  be  in  the  House  of  Delegates  one  hundred  and  twenty  members ;  of 
whom  twenty-six  shall  be  elected  from  that  part  of  Virginia  lying  West  of  the  Alle- 
ghany mountains ;  twenty-four  from  the  Valley  betv/een  the  Alleghany  and  Blue 
Ridge ;  thirty-seven  from  the  Blue  Ridge  to  the  head  of  tide- water;  and  tiiirty-three 
thence  below." 

He  commented  at  some  length  on  this  proposal,  shewing  what  would  be  its  practi- 
cal effect.  It  would  leave  in  the  whole  House  of  Delegates  a  majority  of  twenty  to 
the  East  of  the  mountain. 

The  twenty-six  counties  West  of  the  Alleghany,  would  have  twenty-six  Delegates  : 
the  fourteen  counties  in  the  Valley,  twenty-tbur  Delegates  ;  the  twenty-nine  coun- 
ties of  middle  Virginia,  would  have  thirty-seven  Delegates ;  and  the  thirty-six  coun- 
ties and  four  boroughs  of  the  tide -water  country,  would  have  thirty-three  Delegates. 

He  preferred  the  county  basis  for  representation ;  and  thought  it  might  with  some 
little  accommodation  be  arranged  in  the  tide-water  country  as  m  the  rest  of  the  State; 
a  few  of  the  smallest  counties  giving  up  their  claim  to  individual  representation. 

He  placed  this  copy  of  the  resolution  on  the  table  for  the  inspection  of  the  members. 

The  question  being  taken,  it  was  determined  to  pass  by  hlhng  the  blank  for  tlie 
present :  Ayes  51. 

Mr.  Mercer  now  moved  to  take  up  the  report  of  the  Executive  Committee :  the 
motion  was  opposed  by  Messrs.  Brodnax  and  Nicholas,  and  negatived. 

The  Committee  then  proceeded  with  the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  and 
took  up  the  eighth  resolution,  which  reads  as  tullows : 

"  Resolved,  That  it  ought  to  be  provided,  that  in  all  elections  for  members  of  either 
branch  of  the  General  Assembly  ;  and  in  the  election  of  all  officers  which  may  be 
required  to  be  made  by  the  two  Houses  of  Assembly,  j.ointly,  or  in  either  separately, 
with  the  exception  of  the  appointment  of  their  own  officers,  the  vote  should  be  given 
openly,  or  viva  voce,  and  not  by  ballot." 


456  DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 

Mr.  Brodnax  now  moved  as  a  substitute  for  the  above,  the  following : 

"  Resolved,  That  it  ought  to  be  provided  in  the  Constitution,  that  in  all  elections  in 
this  State,  to  any  office  or  place  of  trust,  honor  or  profit,  with  the  exception  of  the 
appointment  of  the  officers  of  the  General  Assembly,  the  votes  should  be  given  viva 
voce,  and  not  by  ballot." 

On  the  suggestion  of  Mr.  Randolph,  he  asked  leave  to  withdraw  the  clause  which 
permits  the  officers  of  the  House  of  Assembly  to  vote  by  ballot  for  their  own  officers. 

Mr.  Claytor,  approving  the  general  principle  of  viva  voce  elections,  objected  to  carry 
it  into  all  Legislative  Assemblies,  so  as  to  open  a  poll  for  the  choice  of  their  officers. 
He  was  about  to  reinstate  the  clause  ;  when 

The  Chair  suggested  that  to  vote  against  leave  to  withdraw  it,  would  have  the  . 
same  effect. 

Mr.  Brodnax  defended  the  principle,  and  contended  that  there  should  be  no  excep- 
tion on  its  application.  In  some  elections  in  Congress,  resort  had  been  had  to  ballots 
of  different  colours  that  members  might  have  the  opportunity  of  letting  their  votes  be 
known  to  all. 

Mr.  Claytor  thought  there  was  no  need  of  enjoining  it  by  Constitutional  provision  : 
the  Legislature  might  use  their  discretion  in  the  case. 

Mr.  Johnson  concurred  in  this  view.  There  was  no  danger  of  intrigue  and  cor- 
ruption in  the  election  of  the  officers  of  the  Assembly ;  and  it  was  not  desirable,  that 
officers  who  were  continually  to  come  in  contact  with  the  members,  should  know  who 
had  voted  for  and  who  against  them. 

Mr.  Randolph  said,  that  he  hoped  in  common  courtesy  the  Committee  would  not 
refuse  the  leave  asked  by  the  gentleman  from  Dinwiddle.  In  the  whole  course  of  his 
Parliamentary  life,  he  had  never  known  the  leave  denied.  If  the  gentleman  from 
Campbell,  (Mr.  Claytor,)  felt  strenuous  on  the  subject,  he  would  move  to  re-insert  the 
clause.  As  I  am  on  my  feet,  said  Mr.  R.,  permit  me  to  say  that  there  are  many  who 
remember  the  important  election  of  Speaker  to  the  House  of  Burgesses  in  1799 — 1800; 
an  election,  in  which  the  Commonwealth  of  Virginia  felt  as  much  interest  as  she  has 
done  in  any  one  election  from  that  day  to  this.  It  was  durmg  that  session  that  the 
venerable  gentleman  who  is  at  the  head  of  the  Orange  delegation,  and,  I  may  say — 
speaking  of  his  experience  and  weight  of  character — at  the  head  Of  this  Assembly, 
brought  in  his  celebrated  report  on  the  Alien  and  Sedition  Laws,  which  put  a  curb 
in  the  mouth  and  a  hook  in  the, nose  of  the  great  Federal  Leviathan,  and  which  some 
gentlemen  seem  so  anxious  to  remove.  As  to  the  saving  of  time,  the  Clerk  can  call 
over  the  names  of  the  members  in  far  less  time  than  it  takes  to  collect  the  ballots, 
count  them  and  ascertain  and  report  the  result.  All  gentlemen  know  the  difference 
in  time  between  merely  calling  the  yeas  and  nays,  and  conducting  an  election  by  bal- 
lot. The  Clerkship  of  the  House  of  Delegates  is  an  office  of  great  profit,  and  of  yet 
greater  trust  and  honour.  I  can  see  no  ground  of  discrimination  between  an  election 
in  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  an  election  elsewhere.  But  it  was  not  with  this  view 
that  I  rose,  but  merely  to  vindicate  what  I  consider  as  in  common  courtesy,  the  right 
of  the  gentleman  from  Dinwiddle :  I  coald  not  justify  it  to  myself  to  offer  such  an 
act  of  rudeness  and  indignity  to  that  gentleman,  as  to  refuse  the  leave  he  has  re- 
quested. 

Mr.  Claytor  disclaimed  all  intention  of  offering  any  rudeness  or  indignity  to  the 
gentleman  from  Dinwiddle  :  on  the  contrary,  the  course  he  had  originally  chosen, 
was  the  very  one  pointed  out  by  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte,  (Mr.  Randolph.)  He 
did  not  rise  to  prolong  the  debate,  but  only  to  vindicate  his  own  conduct. 

The  Chair  said,  he  had  not  understood  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte  as  having  any 
personal  allusion  in  his  remarks. 

Mr.  R.  disclaimed  it  entirely. 

Mr.  Johnson  explained  himself  as  intending  to  refuse  no  courtesy  to  the  gentleman; 
but  as  having  understood  this  as  the  mode  of  trying  the  question,  whether  the  clause 
should  remain  or  be  stricken  out. 

After  some  farther  explanation,  the  question  was  taken  on  granting  leave,  and  car- 
ried :  Ayes  50. 

Mr.  Claytor  now  moved  to  re-instate  the  clause — (so  as  to  leave  it  discretionary 
with  the  Legislature,  to  vote  for  their  own  officers,  by  ballot  or  viva  voce.) 

And  the  question  being  taken,  the  votes  as  counted  by  the  Chair  stood.  Ayes  44, 
Noes  43  :  but  the  Chair  fearing  some  inaccuracy  in  the  count,  appointed  tellers ;  and 
then  the  vote  appeared  :  Ayes  43,  Noes  46.  So  the  Committee  refused  to  re-instate 
the  clause — thereby  requiring  all  elections  to  be  held  viva  voce. 

The  Committee  then  proceeded  to  the  ninth  resolution,  which  reads  as  follovv^s : 
Resolved,  That  no  man  shall  be  compelled  to  frequent  or  support  any  religious 
worship,  place,  or  ministry  whatsoever;  nor  shall  be  enforced,  restrained,  molested, 
or  burthened  in  his  body  or  goods,  nor  shall  otherwise  suffer  on  account  of  his  reli- 
gious opinions  or  belief;  but  that  all  men  shall  be  free  tt)  profess,  and  by  argument  to 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONTENTION. 


457 


mamtain  their  opinions  in  matters  of  reKgion,  and  that  the  same  shall  in  no  wise  di- 
minish, enlarge,  or  affect  their  ciril  capacities," 

2vlr.  Brodna-x  explauied  tliis  to  be  a  literal  transcript  from  the  celebrated  act  dravrn 
by  Mr.  Jefferson,  and  passed  in  1755.  for  the  freedom  of  rehgion, 

'  He  moved  to  amend  the  resolution  by  adding  to  the  first  member  of  it.  a  clausej 
declaring  edl  persons  who  disbeheved  in  a  God  or  a  future  state  of  rewards  and  pun- 
ishments, as  incapable  of  being  received  as  witnesses  in  any  Court  of  law  in  the  Com- 
monwealth. He"  did  not  himself  consider  such  a  claxise  absolutely  necessary,  as  the 
same  thino-  was  virtually  included  in  the  resolutiou.  or  not  contradicted  by  it:  but  it 
was  best  to  add  the  clause  by  way  of  caution. 

On  the  sugorestion  of  ^h.  Pv-andolph,  Mr.  Brodnax  withdrew  his  amendment. 

Mr.  Cooke  moved  to  amend  the  second  member  of  the  resolution,  by  striking  out 
the  proviso  (which  disqualified  ministers  from  being  elected  to  the  Legislature.) 

^h.  Doddrido-e  was  in  favour  of  the  motion.  He  disapproved  the  election  of  min- 
isters to  a  legisfative  body  as  much  as  most  men  :  but  he  would  not  vote  to  prevent 
the  people  from  makinof  whom  they  would  their  Delegate  to  tiieir  own  Hall  of  Legis- 
lation- He  considered  the  exclusion  as  at  war  with  the  principle  of  the  whole  reso- 
lution :  which  allowed  men  to  promulgate  their  religious  opinions  free  fi-om  all  politi- 
cal consequences :  but  the  language  of  this  proviso  was — unless  tliey  uttered  them  in 
Uie pulpit,  then  they  must  be  disfranchised. 

Mr.  Brodiiax  said,,  the  gentleman  firom  Brooke  had  forgotten  the  Hall  of  Legislation. 
Ministers  might  vent  their  opinions  every  where,  and  any  where,  but  iu  that  Hall. 
The  gentleman  from  Brooke  was  commonly  ven,-  fehcitous  in  appealinof  to  the  ex- 
ample of  other  States,  and  sometimes  carried  that  appeal  farther  thaxi  he  was  disposed 
to  follow  him.  He  beUeved,  all  the  States  in  the  Union  went  to  the  extent  of  this 
resolution,  and  many  of  them  much  farther.  In  the  new  Constitution  of  New  York, 
which  had  been  lugged  in — (He  begged  pardon — which  had  been  brought  in  most 
gracefully)  into  this  debate,  ministers  were  disabled  from  holding  any  civil  office 
whatever.  Mr.  B.  disclaimed  all  want  of  respect  for  the  clergy,  either  personally,  or 
in  their  clerical  capacity  :  but  there  was  a  proper  place  for  them;  and  that  place* was 
not  in  the  Leorislative  Hall.  He  entertained,  indeed,  no  fear  as  to  a  union  of 
Church  and  State  in  this  country.  The  fears  of  our  forefathers,  he  beheved,  were 
well  founded:  but  the  progress  of  time,  and  the  division  of  the  Church  into  four,  five, 
or  six,  he  might  alnaost  say  into  four,  five,  or  six  thousand,  difierent  firagments,  ren- 
dered that  danger  nugatory.  This  was  the  best  and"  stronsrest  of  all  oruards  on  that 
subject.  But  iher-e  were  numerous  reasons  which  forbade  the  appearance  of  minis- 
ters of  the  Gospel  in  the  political  arena.  It  was  totally  inconsistent  with  their  sacer- 
dotal habits  and  sentiments  ;  every  power  of  tlieir  mind  ought  to  be,  and  he  believed, 
was,  turned  in  different  and  opposite  directions  from  temporal  leodslation.  He  ad- 
verted to  the  influence  (not  consciously  indulged)  of  sectarian  attachments,  and  its 
operation  on  ail  questions  where  the  interests  of  a  sect  were  directly  or  indirectlv  in- 
volved :  and  the  influence  of  a  minister  over  the  numerous  individuals  attached  to 
him — both  of  which  were  foreign  to  impartial  legislation  on  his  part  or  impartial  judg- 
ment on  theirs.- 

Mr.  Doddridge  assured  the  gentleman  from  Dinwiddie,  that  he  did  know  the  dif- 
ference between  the  pulpit  and  the  Hall  of  Legislation — having  seen  both  more  than 
once.  But  he  still  insisted  on  his  former  ground.  The  resolution  declared,  that  a 
man's  relicrious  opinions  shall  not  affect  his  civil  capacities  :  but  the  proviso  declares, 
that  if  tho^e  opinions  are  uttered  in  the  pulpit,  the  utterance  of  them  shall  affect  his 
civil  capacities,  even  to  disfreuichisement.  At  the  polls  he  should  probably  act  with 
the  gentleman  :  but  why  tie  up  the  hands  of  the  people  f 

]Mr.  Cooke  considered  it  as  at  war  v*-ith  the  whole  spirit  of  our  institutions,  to  dis- 
franciiise  an  entire  class  of  our  citizens,  without  any  good  reason  assigned :  a  class 
too,  which  he  considered  far  tlie  most  virtuous  and  efiicient  in  the  community.  He 
insisted  on  the  objection  urged  by  Mr.  Doddridge. 

Mr.  Coalter  said,  that  it  was  precisely  because  he  wished  the  clergy  to  remain  what 
he  now  believed  them  to  be,  that  he  was  against  striking  out  the  proviso.  Tlieir  mas- 
ter had  said  that  his  kingdom  was  not  of  this  world:  he  had  commanded  his  servants 
to  render  unto  Caesar  the  things  which  are  Caesar's,  and  unto  God  the  tilings  which 
are  God's,  He  had  been  himself  wihing  to  have  nothing  to  do  with  pohtics,  and  his 
servants  ought  to  have  no  more  to  do  with  them  than  He. 

3Ir.  Brodnax,  in  reply  to  Mr.  Doddridge  and  Mr.  Cooke,  observed,  that  a  proviso, 
is.  of  course.. something  which  involves  a  discrepancy  and  exception.  It  might  be 
deemed  very  ginful  in  him  to  wish  to  exclude  ministers,  but  he  found  himself,  at  any  '■ 
rate,  in  very  good  company.  The  exclusion  was  carried  yet  farther  than  this  by  the 
old  Constitution  of  Virginia.  He  called  it  the  old  Constitution:  he  knew  it  was 
spoken  of  very  commonly  now  vdth  great  contempt ;  and  perhaps  he  ought  to  beg 
pardon  for  mentioning  it  at  all  :  but  this  old  Constitution  had  been  formed  by  men, 
not  lialf  so  wise,  to  be  sore,  as  they,  (because,  as  the  Committee  had  been  informed. 

58 


458 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  sons  were  younger,  and  of  course  wiser  than  their 
fathers,)  but  by  men  who  had  some  little  reputation  in  their  day ;  and  those  men  had 
said  that  ministers  should  not  be  eligible  as  members  of  the  Governor's  Council.  He 
knew  that  the  act  on  Religious  Freedom  was  no  part  of  the  Constitution,  but  it  had 
received  universal  sanction  from  the  people  of  Virginia. 

But  Kentucky,  Tennessee,  and  New  York,  v/hile  they  had  the  same  general  pro- 
vision on  the  subject  of  Religious  Freedom,  added  besides  this  exclusion  of  the  clergy 
from  the  Legislature  :  and  in  New  York  they  are  excluded  from  "  any  civil  or  military 
place  or  otfice  whatsoever." 

Mr.  Cooke  said,  that  on  the  ground  of  authority,  he  was  not  prepared;  but  he  was 
informed  that  in  eighteen  States  out  of  the  twenty-four  in  this  Union,  ministers  are 
admitted  to  a  full  participation  in  all  civil  and  political  rights  with  other  men.  He 
admitted,  that  the  Constitution  of  Virginia  did  treat  the  clergy  with  not  very  high  re- 
spect: but  probably  this  arose  from  old  habitudes  derived  from  England,  where  the 
clergy  were  excluded  from  the  House  of  Commons,  because  they  had  a  House  of 
their  own, 

Mr.  Morgan  said,  there  seemed  to  be  but  a  single  question  to  be  settled  ;  which  was, 
whether  the  Constitution  shall  be  so  formed  that  the  clergy  shall  be  dispossessed  of 
all  modes  of  amassing  power  over  the  people.  Now,  there  were  two  modes  of  effect- 
ing this  object,  either  to  exclude  them  from  the  Legislature  ;  or  to  divest  the  Legis- 
lature of  all  jurisdiction  whatever  over  the  subject  of  religion. 

If  the  Committee  adopted  the  latter  mode,  there  could  be  no  necessity  of  resorting 
to  the  former. 

Under  the  existing  Constitution,  their  exclusion  is  jjersonal  only  :  the  Legislature 
may  give  them  any  degree  of  patronage,  and  any  amount  of  support,  but  not  a  seat  in 
the  Legislative  Hall.  But  they  now  proposed  to  forbid  the  Legislature's  granting 
them  any  aid  or  patronage,  and,  therefore  he  was  for  admitting  them  to  a  seat,  if  the 
people  chose  to  elect  them.    He  was  in  favor  of  striking  out  the  proviso. 

Mr.  Moore  was  opposed  to  it.  He  thought  any  clergyman  who  offered  himself  as 
a  candidate  for  a  seat  in  the  Legislature,  shewed  himself  unv/orthy  to  be  trusted  any 
where.  He  considered  their  habits  and  studies  as  totally  unfitting  them  for  politics; 
and,  in  the  last  place,  he  owned  that  he  was  afraid  of  them.  Keep  them  in  their 
proper  place,  and  there  is  no  danger;  but  allow  them  to  be  connected  with  the  State 
in  any  way,  and  you  have  the  dreaded  union  of  Church  and  State  at  once. 

Mr.  Randolph  then  said  : 

To  me  this  is  a  most  unlooked-for  proposition.  There  is  not  one  single  article  of 
my  political  creed,  about  which  1  have  not  a  greater  disposition  to  doubt,  than  of  the 
propriety  of  excluding  a  class  of  men,  dedicated  to  the  office  of  religion,  from  the 
possession  of  political  power.  A  gentleman  told  us,  that  but  for  the  insertion  of  that 
proviso  in  the  Constitution,  he  should  be  for  excluding  them  from  the  Legislature.  I 
would  much  rather  vote  to  strike  out  the  whole,  and  to  leave  the  Constitution  as  it 
now  stands;  and  for  this  plain  reason:  I  am,  and  have  been,  and  ever  shall  be,  a 
practical  man ;  and  when  I  meet  with  legislative  provisions  of  this  kind,  I  rather 
smile  at  the  fears  which  dictated  them,  than  applaud  the  caution  they  exhibit.  The 
Constitution  is  just  as  safe  without,  as  with  them.  The  Legislature  of  Virginia  can- 
not, and  if  it  could,  it  dare  not,  attempt  such  legislation  as  is  forbidden  in  the  body  of 
this  resolution.  I  feel  myself  perfectly  safe.  I  find,  somewhere  else,  a  provision 
that  we  shall  have  no  orders  of  nobility  in  this  country.  Who  dreams  that  we  ever 
can  ?  Sir,  when  the  time  shall  come  that  the  people  of  this  country  are  ripe  for  a 
union  of  Church  and  State,  or  for  orders  of  nobility  either,  they  will  have  them  in 
spite  of  all  the  moth-eaten  parchment  in  your  archives.  I  fearlessly  pronounce,  that 
the  admission  of  gentlemen  of  the  cloth  into  your^Legislative  Halls  is  ipso  facto  the 
union  of  Church  and  State.  Sir,  are  there  no  other  considerations  which  weigh  with 
us  in  altering  ?  or  in  keeping  the  Constitution  as  it  is  ?  They  are  now  excluded. 
Are  there  no  other  considerations None  that  every  well  regulated  mind  belonging 
to  the  clerical  profession  ought  of  itself  to  suggest  ?  I  have  had  the  pleasure  (I  was 
about  to  say  1  have  had  the  honor,  but  the  term  would  be  misplaced)  to  be  acquainted 
with  many  of  them :  with  men  of  the  most  unaffected  piety,  of  high  attainments  and 
great  talents ;  and  who,  moreover,  were  clothed  with  that  humilitT/  which  is  the  Alpha 
and  Omega  of  the  christian  character — Yes,  Sir,  its  all  in  all :  and  I  never  knew  one 
of  them  who  dared  to  trust  himself  in  such  a  situation.  Not  one,  who  if  such  an  offer 
had  been  made  him,  might  not  justly  have  said,  "  lead  us  not  into  temptation."  Sir, 
what  are  the  offices  of  the  clerical  body  ?  Do  they  not  mingle  with  all  classes  of  so- 
cietyand  above  all,  in  the  dom.estic  circle.?  Is  not  their  influence  there  paramount 
to  that  of  all  others  ?  Is  it  not  their  duty  to  serve  a  master  whose  kingdom  is  not  of 
this  world As  well  to  reprove  as  to  console  ? 

Figure  to  yourself,  Sir,  a  minister  of  the  gospel  of  peace,  about  to  reprove  for  his  sins, 
a  man  of  wealth  and  influence  in  his  county ;  having,  at  the  same  time,  a  desire  himself 
to  represent  that  county.    Sir,  this  is  no  exclusion  on  account  of  the  profession  of  any 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


459 


opinions.  It  is  an  exclusion  of  an  occupation ;  of  an  occupation  incompatible  with 
the  discharge  of  the  duties  of  a  member  of  either  branch  of  the  Legislature.  The  task 
of  legislation  is  at  war  with  the  duties  of  the  pastor.  The  two  are  iltterly  incompati- 
ble. Sir,  no  man  can  busy  liimself  in  electioneering,  (and  in  these  times  who  can  be 
elected  without  it.')  jS^o  man  can  mingle  in  Legislative  cabals;  1  say  no  man  can 
touch  that  pitch,  without  being  defiled.  No  man  can  so  employ  hunself,  without  being 
disqualified  for  those  sacred  duties  which  every  minister  of  the  gospel  takes  upon  him- 
self; and  for  which  he  is  accountable,  not  to  his  constituents  at  home,  but  to  the  God 
who  made  Mm;  and  who  v\-ill  call  him  to  a  much  more  rigorous  account  tiaan  that  he 
renders  to  his  parishioners. 

Sir,  there  is  an  indecency  in  this  thing.  We  have  heard  much  about  exclusion  of 
the  ladies;  but  there  is  not  greater  indecency  and  incompatibihty  in  a  woman's 
thrusting  herself  into  a  political  assembly  and  all  its  cabals,  than  in  a  clergyman's  un- 
dertakinof  the  same  thing.  One  of  the  greatest  masters  of  the  human  heart,  and  of 
political  philosophy  too,  declares,  that  while  the  French  are  in  their  manners  more  de- 
ferential to  woman  than  any  other  people,  they  have  less  real  esteem  for  woman  than 
any  other  nation  on  earth. 

Let  me  illustrate  this.  The  Turk  shews  that  he  values  his  wife,  by  locking  her 
up  ;  it  is,  to  be  sure,  a  mistaken  mode  :  but  he  shews  that  he  estimates  the  value  of 
the  treasure,  by  putting  it  under  lock  and  key.  The  Frenchman  permits  his  wife  to 
mingle  in  political  afiairs ;  and  if  2^Iadame  Roland  had  not  been  engaged  in  such  af- 
fairs. Madame  Roland  would  never  have  ascended  the  scaflold.  If  women  will  un- 
sex  themselves;  and  if  priests — (what  shall  I  say.')  will  degrade  themselves  by 
mingling  in  scenes  and  in  affairs  for  wliich  their  function  renders  them  improper  and 
unfit,  they  must  take  the  consequences.  If  ladies  wiU  plunge  into  the  afiuirs  of  men, 
they  will  lose  the  deference  they  now  enjoy ;  they  will  be  treated  roughly — like 
men.  Just  so  it  is  with  priests.  They  lose  all  the  deference  which  belongs,  and 
wliich  is  paid  to  their  of&ce,  (whether  they  merit  it  or  no.) 

Sir,  rel}'  upon  it.  if  you  permit  priests  to  be  made  members  of  the  Legislature,  they 
will  soon  constitute  a  large  portion  of  all  your  assemblies.  And  it  has  been  truly  said, 
that  no  countries  are  so  ill-governed  as  those  which  were  ruled  by  the  counsels  of  wo- 
men, except  such  as  have  been  governed  by  the  counsels  of  priests. 

The  question  was  now  put  on  striking  out  the  proviso,  and  decided  in  the  negative  ; 
only  twelve  members  rising  in  its  support.    (Mr.  ^Madison  beinff  one.) 

Mr.  Brodnax  now  moved  a  further  amendment,  to  be  added  at  the  close  of  the 
resolution,  viz: 

2sor  shall  be  so  construed,  as  to  deprive  the  Legislature  of  the  power  of  incorpo- 
rating by  law,  the  trustees  or  directors  of  any  Theological  Seminary,  or  other  Reli- 
gious Society,  or  body  of  men  created  for  charitable  purposes,  or  the  advancement  of 
piety  and  learning,  so  as  to  protect  them  in  the  enjoyment  of  their  property  and  im- 
munities, in  such  case,  and  under  such  regulations,  as  the  Legislature  may'deem  ex- 
pedient and  proper.  But  the  Leoislature  of  this  State,  during  all  future  time,  shall 
possess  the  power  to  alter,  re-model,  or  entirely  repeal  such  charter,  or  act  of  incor- 
poration, whenever  they  shall  deem  it  expedient.'' 

Mr.  Giles  rose  in  opposition  to  the  amendment,  which  he  hoped  would  not  be  passed 
upon  without  due  consideration.  He  then  went  into  a  series  of  observations  on  the 
injurious  effect  of  the  incorporating  power,  when  the  corporations  were  of  a  civil  cha- 
racter, and  nmch  more  when  they  were  of  a  religious  description.  He  considered 
their  multiplication  a  serious  evil  which  had  already  accomplished  much  mischief, 
ajid  which  threatened  much  more.  They  were  bodies  very  irresponsible,  and  were 
gradually  absorbing  to  themselves  all  the  powers  of  the  Legislature.  He  dwelt  es- 
pecially upon  the  injurious  effects  of  Banks ;  and  he  hoped  no  sanction  would  be 
introduced  into  the  Constitution,  tending  to  encourage  the  Legislature  in  granting 
incorporations  of  any  kind. 

Mr.  Brodnax  spoke  in  reply.  He  agreed  in  the  sentiments  expressed  by  that  gen- 
tleman, but  contended  that  the  amendment  he  had  offered  went  to  modify,  and  re- 
strain, not  to  increase  the  evil.  The  Legislature  had  now  Constitutional  liberty  to  in- 
corporate Theological  Seminaries,  and  if  once  incorporated,  their  charters  could  not 
be  altered  or  revoked,  unless  legally  forfeited :  But  this  amendment  conferred  on  the 
Legislature,  power  to  alter  or  amend  their  charters  at  pleasure.  He  spoke  of  the  de- 
gradation of  being  obliged  to  send  young  men  who  were  seeking,  and  who  would  o-et, 
and  ought  to  get,  a  clerical  education,  out  of  the  State  to  be  educated.  Two  Theologi- 
cal Seminaries  raised  by  Virginia  capital,  and  supplied  with  Virginia  students,  had, 
through  sheer  necessity,  been  built  and  incorporated,  beycnd  the  limits  of  the  State, 
because  they  could  not  be  incorporated  within  it.  He  denied  that  the  amendment 
gave  any  preference  to  one  sect  over  another;  and,  as  there  would  be  a  ministry  in 
society,  and  that  ministry  must  possess  great  influence,  was  it  not  better  to  provide 
the  means  of  giving  them  a  becoming  education  .'  As  to  the  danger  of  Church  and 
State,  it  was  a  cliimera.    ISot  one-elexenth  part  of  the  inhabitants  of  the  United  States, 


460 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION, 


were  members  of  a  church  of  any  denomination  whatever:  and  when  it  was  remem- 
bered into  how  many  various  and  incompatible  sects,  this  small  fraction  was  itself  di- 
vided, all  fears  of  anything  like  a  religious  establishment  in  this  country,  must  be  ac- 
knowledged to  be  visionary  in  the  extreme.  He  did  not  believe,  that  any  one  sect 
would  wish,  or  accept  such  a  distinction  if  it  were  offered  to  them:  and  sure  he  was, 
that  if  they  should,  all  the  other  sects  would  be  in  hostility  to  them  immediately. 
The  experience  of  England  on  this  subject,  had  taught  a  lesson  which  could  never  be 
forgotten.  Union  with  the  State  was  deadly  in  its  effect  on  any  religious  denomina- 
tion, and  none  in  this  country  were  so  weak  as  to  desire  it. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke  said,  that  every  argument  he  had  heard  from  Mr.  B.  went 
to  prove  the  necessity  of  a  religious  establishment.  For  himself,  he  had  no  partiality 
for  religious  incorporations  of  any  sort.  He  had,  on  the  coiitrary,  a  great  abhorrence 
to  them  in  every  form.  He  had  many  objections  ;igainst  them  ;  but  having  heard  no 
good  reasons  brought  forward  to  prove  that  any  advantage  would  attend  them,  (those 
hitherto  used  only  professed  to  shew  that  they  would  be  attended  with  no  danger,)  he 
should  urge  but  one  objection,  and  that  was,  that  one  feature  of  such  institutions  must 
be,  to  put  it  in  their  power  to  compel  persons  to  the  support  of  religion.  If  not, 
they  were  of  no  use ;  and  all  such  compulsion  was  incompatible  witli  the  spirit  of 
Christianity.  He,  as  a  republican,  should  vote  against  compelling  any  person  to  sup- 
port any  ministry  whatever. 

Mr.  Brodnax  rejoined.  The  Reverend,  or  the  Rigid  Reverend  gentleman  from 
Brooke,  has  discovered  an  objection  to  his  amendment,  which,  he  confessed  had  never 
entered  into  his  brain.  He  must  certainly  have  been  very  unhappy  either  in  the  se- 
lection or  the  expression  of  his  argument,  if  he  had  conveyed  no  better  idea  of  his 
meaning.  The  Rev.  gentleman  said,  he  had  pointed  out  no  good  consequence  what- 
ever, as  likely  to  attend  Theological  Seminaries.  He  hoped  they  would ,  at  least,  have 
this  good  effect,  to  teach  ministers  of  the  gospel  good  morals  and  good  manners. 
The  gentleman  had  said,  that  such  incorporations  could  be  of  no  use,  unless  they 
compelled  contributions  to  the  support  of  their  ministry:  but  could  the  gentle- 
man forget  that  in  the  body  of  the  resolution,  such  a  power  is  expressly  prohibited, 
not  to  a  mere  corporation,  but  to  the  Legislature  of  the  State?  a  clause  which  had  been 
introduced  with  the  precise  view  to  prevent  that  compulsion  which  some  other  States 
had  sanctioned. 

The  question  being  now  taken  on  the  amendment,  it  was  promptly  negatived, 
twelve  only  rising  in  its  favour. 

The  tenth  and  eleventh  resolutions  were  passed  over  without  amendment.  They 
read  as  follows : 

10.  Resolved,  That  no  bill  of  attainder,  or  expost  facto  law,  or  law  impairing  tlie 
obligation  of  contracts,  ouoht  to  be  passed." 

11.  "  Resolved,  That  private  property  ought  not  to  be  taken  for  public  uses  without 
just  compensation." 

The  Committee  then  proceeded  to  consider  the  twelfth  resolution,  which  is  in  the 
following  words  : 

12.  "  Resolved,  That  the  members  of  the  Legislature  shall  receive  for  their  services, 
a  compensation,  to  be  ascertained  by  law,  and  paid  out  of  the  public  treasury,  but  no 
law  increasing  the  compensation  of  members  of  the  Legislature  shall  take  effect,  until 

.  the  end  of  the  next  annual  session  after  the  said  law  may  have  been  enacted." 

Mr.  Naylor  moved  to  strike  out  the  word  "  end"  and  insert  in  lieu  thereof,  the  word 
"  commencement." 

Mr.  Chapman  of  Giles,  (who  had  introduced  this  resolution  in  the  Legislative  Com- 
mittee,) explained  the  reason  why  he  did  not  wish  the  amendment  to  prevail.  Sup- 
posing a  Legislature,  sitting  this  year,  to  pass  a  resolution  increasing  the  amount  of  the 
wages  of  a  Representative  :  and  supposing  the  people  to  be  dissatisfied  with  what  was 
done  :  when  the  Legislature  meets  the  next  year,  they  nmst  meet  under  that  law,  and 
receive  the  extra  compensation,  until  time  should  elapse  to  pass  a  bill  to  repeal  the 
law.  This  he  was  desirous  to  avoid  ;  and  in  order  to  avoid  it,  he  would  not  have  the 
law  take  effect,  till  the  end  of  the  session.  Then  there  would  be  ample  leisure  to  con- 
sider the  subject,  and  to  introduce,  mature,  and  pass  a  bill  for  the  repeal,  if  it  should 
be  deemed  advisable. 

Mr.  Naylor  thought  this  v/as  an  excess  of  caution  ;  it  was  looking  too  far  ahead  to  le 
gislate  at  the  distance  of  two  sessions  off.  If  the  people  shall  be  dissatisfied,  according 
to  the  case  put  by  the  gentleman,  the  remedy  is  easy.  Let  there  be  an  understand- 
ing that  the  extra  wages  shall  not  be  received. 

The  question  being  put,  the  amendment  was  negatived.    Ayes  37,  Noes  50. 

The  thirteenth  resolution,  which  is  the  last  reported  by  the  Legislative  Committee, 
was  then  passed  by  without  amendment.    It  is  in  the  words  following : 

"  Resolved,  That  no  Senator  or  Delegate  shall,  during  the  term  for  which  he  shall 
have  been  elected,  be  appointed  to  any  civil  ofnce  of  profit  under  this  State,  Vi^hich 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


461 


shall  have  been  created,  or  the  emoluments  of  which  shall  have  been  increased  during 
such  term,  except  such' offices  as  may  be  filled  by  elections  by  the  people." 

Mr.  Doddridge  now  moved  to  take  up  the  second  resolution,  (on  the  subject  of  the 
census.)  but  after  some  conversation  as  to  the  next  subject  to  be  considered, 

Mr.  Nicholas  moved  that  the  Committee  rise  :  the  motion  prevailed.  Ayes  44, 
Noes  42. 

The  Committee  rose  accordingly. 

Mr.  Mercer  moved  a  resolution,  which  was  referred  to  the  Committee  of  the 
Whole,  viz: 

"  Resolved,  That  all  taxes  on  lands,  slaves,  and  horses,  shall  be  founded  on  a  fair  as- 
sessment of  their  value,  that  no  one  of  these  subjects  shall  be  taxed  separately  from  the 
other  two,  and  that  w-hen  taxed,  the  same  rate  shall  be  charged  and  levied  upon  all." 

Mr.  Doddridcre  moved  to  take  up  the  second  resolution  about  the  census ;  and  then 
proposed  the  following  substitute  to  his  former  proposition  : 

Second  resolution,  second  line,  after  t-aken,'"  strike  out  to  the  end  of  the  resolution, 
and  insert  "  in  the  year  Ic^SS,  and  in  every  tenth  year  thereafter,  and  upon  every  such 
census  being  taken,  and  also  upon  the  next  census  taken  under  the  authority  of  the 
United  States,  a  new  apportionment  of  Representation  shall  be  made,  according  to 
the  principles  declared  in  the  foregoing  resolution,  (if  the  state  of  the  population  shall 
have  so  changed,  as  to  render  the  same  necessary,)  and  upon  every  apportionment 
hereafter  to  be  made,  there  shall  be  a  new  assessment  of  lands  for  the  purposes  of 
taxation." 

Mr.  Massie  then  moved  that  the  resolution  proposed  by  Mr.  Gordon  be  pointed  for 
the  use  of  the  members  ;  and  Mr.  Goode  made  a  similar  motion  respecting  Mr.  Dod-  - 
dridge's  amendment  in  relation  to  the  census;  and  the  printing  was  ordered  accord- 

And  thereupon  the  House  adjourned. 


THURSDAY,  November  26, 1829, 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr, 
Douglass  of  the  Presbyterian  Church. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Mason,  the  Convention  passed  an  order,  authorising  the  Com- 
mittee of  the  Whole  to  have  such  printing  executed,  as  they  might  judge  conducive 
to  the  dispatch  of  the  public  business  3  and  then. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Macrae,  certain  documents  were  ordered  to  be  printed. 

The  House  went  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  Powell  at  first,  in  the  Chair; 
but,  his  voice  being  impaired  by  a  severe  cold,  he  soon  after  requested  Mr.  P.  P.  Bar- 
bour to  take  his  place  as  Chairman. 

And  the  question  being  on  the  following  amendment  offered  by  Mr.  Doddridge,  to  "  • 
the  second  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee: 

Second  resolution,  second  line,  after  taken,"  strike  out  to  the  end  of  the  resolu- 
tion, and  insert  in  the  year  1835,  and  in  every  tenth  year  thereafter,  and  upon  every 
such  Census  being  taken,  and  also  upon  the  next  Census  talven  under  the  authority 
of  the  United  States,  a  new  apportionment  of  representation  shall  be  made,  according 
to  the  principles  declared  in  the  foregoing  resolution,  (if  the  state  of  the  population 
shall  have  so  changed,  as  to  render  the  same  necessary.)  and  upon  every  apportion- 
ment hereafter  to  be  made,  there  shall  be  a  new  assessment  of  lands  for  the  purposes 
of  taxation." 

Mr.  Johnson  objected  to  the  amendment,  and  stated  the  expense  which  would  have 
to  be  incurred,  if  an  assessment  was  made  every  five  years,  (reckoning  the  State  and 
Federal  Census  :)  he  referred  to  a  statement  from  the  Auditor's  Office,  for  the  expense 
of  the  last  assessment  of  lands,  to  shew  that  it  cost  $51,.399  94.  This  would  occur 
every  ten  years,  in  addition  to  the  cost  of  the  Census.  He  concluded  with  a  motion, 
that  this  resolution  be,  for  the  present,  passed  over,  which  was  carried. 
The  fifth  resolution,  which  is  in  these  words,  was  also  passed  by: 
"  Resolved,  That  the  number  of  members  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  ought  to  be  re- 
duced, so  that  the  same  be  not  less  than  one  hundred  and  twenty,  nor  more  than  one 
hundred  and  fifty." 

The  Committee  then  proceeded  to  take  up  the  sixth  resolution,  which  reads  as  fol- 
lows : 

"  Resolved,  That  no  person  ought  to  be  elected  a  member  of  the  Senate  of  this  State, 
who  is  not  at  least  thirty  years  of  age." 

Mr.  Bayly  moved  to  amend  the  resolution,  by  striking  out  the  Avord  "  thirty"  and 
inserting  "  twenty-five." 

In  support  of  this  amendment,  he  addressed  the  Committee  as  follo^vs : 


462 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  Chairman, — I  cannot  agree  to  the  resolution  which  requires  the  age  to  be  longer 
in  the  Constitution  we  are  endeavouring  to  make,  than  in  the  old  Constitution,  with- 
out very  strong  reasons  to  justify  the  cliange.  For,  although  we  have  iieard  very 
many  and  great  complaints  from  various  parts  of  the  State  against  the  Constitution, 
in  most  parts  of  its  organization,  yet  I  have  never  heard  a  whisper  of  disapprobation 
from  any  portion  of  tlie  Commonwealth,  or  from  any  man,  that  the  Senators  were  not 
of  sufficient  age  at  twenty-five.  It  seems  to  me,  that  this  part  of  the  Constitution, 
heretofore,  has  been  considered  by  all,  free  from  exception,  until  we  have  met  in 
Convention,  and  an  imaginary  evil  is  now  supposed  to  exist.  And  yet  gentlemen, 
who  are  very  unwilling  to  make,  and  resist  with  all  their  force  and  power  of  argu- 
ment, any  and  every  change  in  those  very  great  defects  in  the  Constitution  which 
have  compelled  tlie  people  to  convene  this  Convention  to  remove,  seem  determined 
to  change  some  of  those  parts  of  the  Constitution  wliich  now  place  no  restraint  upon 
the  people.  But,  such  parts  of  tlie  Constitution  as  the  people  have  demanded  shall  be 
so  altered  or  amended,  whereby  they  shall  have  greater  power  in  the  Government 
than  they  have  heretofore  possessed,  are  to  remain  unaltered  and  unalterable,  and  a 
strong  limitation  put  upon  their  right  of  electing  the  man  of  their  choice,  who  they 
desire  to  be  tlieir  representative,  and  upon  the  supposition  that  they  cannot  distinguish 
between  the  merits  of  old  and  young  men;  the  young  man  without  experience,  and 
the  old  man  who  has  not  profited  by  experience. 

Has  a  single  or  solitary  instance  been  quoted,  where  the  Commonwealth  has  re- 
ceived any  injury  from  the  very  numerous  number  of  young  men  of  great  merit  and 
promise,  which  the  people,  the  freeholders,  have  introduced  into  their  two  Houses  of 
General  Assembly,  that  thereby  in  early  life,  they  may  acquire  those  useful  and  ne- 
cessary accomplishments,  which  will  in  due  time  fit  them  for  the  Councils  of  the 
Union.?  The  people  are  to  be  restricted  from  selecting  a  man  under  thirty  years  of 
age,  to  deliberate  with  grave  Senators,  who  will  be  quick  to  correct  any  error  which 
will  lead  him  from  his  duty;  but  should  his  aged  companions  in  the  Senate,  not  re- 
strain the  youthful  Senators  of  twenty-five  years  from  doing  wrong,  his  constituents 
will,  at  the  next  election,  apply  the  corrective.  You  add  restriction  upon  the  people 
when  they  elect  or  appoint  to  office,  but  when  the  General  Assembly  or  your  Execu- 
tive elect  or  appoint  to  office,  no  restriction  will  then  be  met  with  in  your  Constitu- 
tion. Your  Judges,  your  Generals,  your  Auditor,  Treasurer,  and  all  the  host  of  civil 
and  military  officers,  will  be  created  without  the  requisite  of  any  qualification  of  age : 
I  might  add  your  Councillors  of  State;  but  they  are  dead,  and  nothing  but  a  miracle 
can  bring  to  life.  The  only  cases  where  age  will  be  required  as  a  qualification  to  office, 
is,  when  the  people  choose ;  then  they  are  to  be  restrained  in  their  election,  to  mem- 
bers of  the  General  Assembly,  and  in  the  election  of  the  Governor,  who  is  to  be  thirty 
years  of  age  and  elected  by  the  people,  as  seems  to  be  at  this  time  the  determination 
of  the  Convention,  which  I  hope  and  trust  will  be  adhered  to. 

When  we  consider  the  reduction  we  are  making  of  the  number  of  Legislators,  and 
that  half  the  counties  which  heretofore  have  been  privileged  with  two  Law-givers, 
will  hereafter  only  have  one,  it  may  readily  be  supposed  that  they  will  be  more  solicit- 
ous upon  whom  their  choice  will  fall,  and  will  select  their  brightest  man,  be  he 
young  or  old.  A  majority  of  the  States  finding  no  evil  resulting,  from  permitting 
their  young  men  early  in  life  to  enter  into  their  service  in  deliberative  assemblies, 
have  required  the  age  of  twentj^-one  for  a  Representative,  and  twenty-five  for  a  Sena- 
tor ;  and  some  of  these  modern  Constitutions  may  have  been  copied  from  the  Virginia 
Constitution,  which  is  not  only  the  oldest  written  Constitution  of  any  of  the  States  of 
this  Confederation,  but  it  is  believed  it  is  the  oldest  written  Constitution  of  Govern- 
ment in  the  world.  Why  then  shall  we  change  this  feature  which  has  been  approved  ? 
Sir,  the  people  may,  can,  and  ought  to  be  trusted,  to  select  without  restriction  as  to 
age  after  twenty-five,  whosoever  they  wish  to  be  their  rulers.  It  will  not  do  so  often 
to  say,  that  the  citizens  of  Virginia  are  so  virtuous,  wise  and  independent  in  voting 
viva  voce  for  their  agents,  and  yet  restrain  them  from  promoting  their  interest  by  se- 
lecting a  rising  genius  of  great  expectations  to  advocate  their  rights.  By  this  resolu- 
tion, you  compel  them  to  turn  away  from  a  man  who  has  every  qualification  except 
age,  to  another  who  has  no  other  qualification.  But,  Sir,  so  far  from  this  provision 
producing  mischief,  and  I  think  it  has  produced  none,  for  none  has  been  stated  or 
complained  of,  it  has  produced  much  good.  Soon  after  the  age  of  twenty-one,  the 
three  venerable  gentlemen  who  stand  at  the  head  of  this  Convention,  (Ex-Presidents 
Madison  and  Monroe,  and  Chief  Justice  Marshall,)  entered  into  the  service  of  Virgi- 
nia :  to  these  I  may  add  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk,  (Mr.  Tazewell.)  Another  gen- 
tleman from  Norfolk,  (Mr.  Grigsby,)  in  this  Convention,  is  not  now  twenty-three  years 
old,  and  yet  he  has  been  twice  elected  by  the  citizens  of  that  Borough,  to  represeiit 
them  in  General  Assembly.  I  may  mention  the  names  of  many  more  illustrious  citi- 
zens of  Virginia  to  justify  my  motion ;  one  more  I  will  refer  to,  the  gentleman  from 
Charlotte,  (Mr.  Randolph,)  when  elected  to  Congress,  it  was  supposed  he  had  not 
acquired  the  age  of  twenty-five  years,  (which  I  believe  was  the  fact,)  and  when  called 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


463 


upon  to  take  the  usual  oatlis  in  the  Hall  of  the  Representatives  of  the  Nation,  the 
Speaker  demanded  as  by  authority,  "  Sir,  are  you  twenty-Jive  years  old?'''  The  reply 
of  the  young  Statesman  struck  him  dumb:  "Go  axd  ask  my  Coxstituexts;"  and 
that  was  the  proper  reply.  His  constituents  were  the  rightful  judges  of  his  qualifica- 
tions, and  if  that  gentleman  had  studied  from  that  to  this  time,  for  an  answer  more 
proper  to  have  been  given,  he  would  not  have  succeeded. 

A  newspaper  I  have  received  this  morning,  gives  the  ages  of  the  fifty-six  illustrious 
men  at  the  time  they  signed  the  Declaration  of  Independence  of  the  United  States. 

Edward  Rutledge  was  twenty-six  years  old,  Thomas  Lynch,  jr.  twenty-seven; 
Thomas  Heyward,  jr.  thirty.  These  three,  the  youngest  of  the  fitty-six,  were  from 
South  Carohna.  Benjamin  Rush  thirty  ;  Elbridge  Gerry  thirty-one;  William  Hooper 
thirty-one;  Thomas  Stone  thirty-two:  Thomas  Jefferson  thirty-three;  James  Wilson 
thirty-three. 

It  is  not  probable,  that  the  first  entrance  into  public  life  of  these  men,  was  in  that 
glorious  Congress,  and  I  may  safe!}^  presume,  that  they  had  often  been  chosen  by 
their  countrymen,  to  fill  public  stations,  before  they  were  selected  for  that  great  and 
trying  occasion. 

William  Pitt  the  younger,  who  is  considered  by  Englishmen,  the  wisest  jMinister 
England  ever  had,  took  upon  himself  the  government  of  that  wonderful  people,  at  the 
age  of  twenty-two  or  tweniy-three,  and  sustained  himself  against  every  opposition, 
for  twenty-three  years,  and  until  his  death. 

Taking'^the  example  of  our  own  and  other  States  and  countries,  it  does  appear  to 
me,  that  the  restriction  upon  the  people  which  we  are  about  to  impose  in  choosino-  their 
Representatives,  is  not  necessary,  and  therefore  I  have  made  the  motion. 

Mr.  Jovxes  addressed  tlie  Committee,  in  substance,  as  follows: 

Mr.  Chairman, — The  resolutions  relative  to  the  ages  of  Senators  and  Deleffates, 
having  been  adopted  in  the  Legislative  Committee  on  my  motion,  it  may,  perhaps,  be 
expected  of  me  to  state  the  reasons  which  induced  me  to  propose  to  chano-e  the  pro- 
visions of  the  present  Constitution  on  these  subjects.  I  confess  I  do  not  regard  it  as  a 
matter  of  very  great  importance,  that  Senators  should  be  thirty,  rather  than  tVenty-five 
years  of  age ;  but  there  are  several  considerations  which  induce  me  to  prefer  thirty  as 
the  age  of  Senators.  There  is  no  general  rule  without  exceptions;  and  I  admit,  that 
one  of  the  greatest  Statesmen  England  ever  produced,  was  Prime  Minister  of  that 
Kingdom  at  much  less  than  tliirty  years  of  age.  And  our  own  country  has  produced 
some  splendid  examples  of  very  early  developments  of  great  powers  of  mind.  Some  of 
the  greatest  orators  the  world  has  ever  knoAvn.  have  attained  very  hig-li  distinction 
before  the  age  of  thirty  :  but  these  exceptions  do  not  disprove  the  propriety  of  the  pro- 
posed change. 

It  is  not  enough  to  fit  a  man  for  the  duties  of  a  Senator,  that  he  should  be  a  man  of 
brilliant  genius,  or  great  powers  of  eloquence;  but  it  is  necessary  that  he  should  pos- 
sess a  maturity  of  judgment,  and  a  knowledge  of  the  Constitution  and  laws  of  the 
State,  which  very  few  young  men  possess.  It  is  proposed  that  the  Senate  should  be 
retained  at  its  present  number  of  twenty-four  members ;  and  a  bare  majority  being 
necessary  to  form  a  quorum,  the  votes  of  seven  members  (which  is  a  majority  of  a 
majority,)  will  be  sufficient  to  enact  or  repeal  the  most  important  laws.  The  territory 
of  Virginia,  from  its  extent  and  fertility,  is  able  to  sustain  more  than  twice  the  num- 
ber of  its  present  population ;  and  with  this  increased  population,  and  from  other 
causes,  it  may  reasonabty  be  expected  that  new  interests  will  spring  up,  and  whatever 
may  be  the  increased  population,  and  however  diversified  may  be^the  interests  of  so- 
ciety, it  is  proposed  forever  to  limit  the  number  of  Senators  to  twenty -four. 

In  addition  to  the  ordinary  powers  of  legislation,  it  is  proposed  in  the  Convention 
to  confer  new  and  important  powers  on  the  Senate,  It  is  proposed,  to  give  to  the 
Senate  the  power  of  trying  all  impeachments — to  give  it  a  concvrrent  vote  with  the 
House  of  Delegates  in  the  appointment  of  all  important  officers  of  the  Government,  or 
to  constitute  it  as  a  Council,  by  whose  advice  and  consent,  the  Governor  is  to  make 
such  appointments ;  and  it  is  also  proposed  to  give  to  the  Senate  and  House  of  Dele- 
gates, by  concurrent  vote,  the  power  of  removing  Judges  from  office.  All  these  im- 
portant powers  to  be  exercised  by  twenty-four  men,  it  seems  to  me,  require  that  tliese 
twenty-four  men,  should  be  men  who  possess  great  wisdom  and  experience,  and  that 
maturity  of  judgment  and  discretion,  which  age  alone  can  o-ive. 

But,  Mr.  Chairman,  there  is  another  consideration  which  it  appears  to  me.  is  enti- 
tled to  some  weight  upon  this  subject.  Although  I  ardently  hope  that  the  Union  of 
these  States  may  be  perpetual,  yet  in  modern  "times,  a  dissolution  of  the  Union  is  so 
frequently  spoken  of,  that  there  is  some  reason  to  apprehend  that  that  is  not  merely  a 
possible  event.  If  such  a  catastrophe  should  ever  happen  to  this  confederacy,  the 
Legislature  of  Virginia,  will  not  then,  as  at  present,  be  confined  to  legislation  for  the 
internal  concerns  of  the  State,  but  other  new  and  important  duties  will  devolve  upon, 
them  in  reference  to  the  connexion  of  Virginia,  with  the  great  family  of  nations.  Such 


464 


DEBATES  OP  THE  CONVENTION. 


important  duties  as  would  then  devolve  upon  the  Legislature,  ought  not  to  be  per- 
formed, except  by  the  wisest  and  most  experienced  of  the  sons  of  Viro  inia. 

It  is  said,  that  the  people  may  be  safely  trusted  on  this  subject,  and  that  they  are 
the  best  judges  of  the  fitness  of  candidates  for  office,  and  that  there  is  no  dano-er  of 
their  electing  a  man  to  the  Senate  who  is  not  well  quahfied  lor  the  station.  I  should 
be  the  last  man  to  question  the  competency  of  the  people  to  decide  upon  the  qualifi- 
cations of  candidates  for  office ;  or  to  impose  any  improper  restrictions  upon  the  exer- 
cise of  their  discretion ;  but  the  arguments  of  gentlemen  upon  this  subject  prove  too 
much.  The  restraints  imposed  by  a  people  upon  themselves  in  their  fundamental 
laws,  are  restraints  imposed  by  them  for  their  own  benefit.  If  no  restraint  should  be 
imposed  upon  the  right  of  selection  by  the  people,  why  do  gentlemen  propose  that 
Senators  should  be  tzvejity-five  years  of  age  ?  Why  not  trust  the  people  to  elect  Sena- 
tors at  twent^y-one  years  of  age  ?  Nay,  Sir,  even  less  than  twenty -one  ;  for,  I  dare  say 
that  some  young  men  might  be  found  even  under  twenty-one,  who  would,  jwssibly 
make  good  Senators. 

The  same  argument  would  apply  with  equal  force  to  the  Constitution  of  the  United 
States.  The  wise  men  who  made  that  Constitution,  required  the  President  to  be 
thirty-five,  Senators  thirty,  and  Representatives  twenty-five  years  of  age;  and  the 
Constitution  having  been  adopted  by  the  people,  shews  that  they  approved  of  those 
limitations  on  their  own  discretion.  The  united  voice  of  the  people  of  the  United 
States  would  not  be  sufficient  to  elect  to  the  Presidential  Chair  the  most  distinguished 
man  in  the  nation,  unless  he  were  thirty-five  years  of  age.  Why  not  remove  all  these 
Constitutional  restraints,  and  confide  to  the  discretion  of  the  people  and  to  the  State 
Legislatures,  the  power  of  electing  a  President,  Senators  and  Representatives  of 
whatever  ages  they  choose  ?  The  people  of  other  States  have  thought  it  wise  to  im- 
pose limitations  upon  themselves  in  their  Constitutions  upon  this  subject.  In  four  of 
the  States,  Senators  are  required  to  be  thirty  years  of  age,  in  one  twenty-eight,  in  four 
twenty-seven,  in  one  twenty-six,  and  in  all  the  rest  of  the  States,  twenty-five  years 
of  age  are  required.  In  two  of  the  States,  Representatives  are  required  to  be  twenty- 
five  years  of  age,  in  three  twenty-four,  and  in  one  twenty-two. 

But,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  consider  it  much  more  important  to  require  Delegates  to  be 
twenty-five,  than  Senators  thirty  years  of  age.  Between  the  ages  of  twenty-one  and 
twenty-five,  young  men  ought  to  be  engaged  in  study,  and  in  preparing  themselves 
to  become  members  of  the  Legislature ;  and  the  observation  of  every  man  who  has 
,been  a  member  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  I  am  sure,  has  furnished  him  with  oppor- 
tunities of  seeing  young  men  under  twenty-five  years  of  age  in  that  House,  who  had 
not  sufficient  experience  and  judgment  to  fit  them  to  be  Legislators. 

I  know  that  some  gentlemen  are  opposed  to  changing  tlie  existing  state  of  things, 
unless  great  practical  evils  have  resulted  from  them.  Innovations  upon  established 
regulations  on  important  subjects,  I  admit,  ought  to  be  cautiously  made  ;  but  in  the 
proposed  changes,  no  possible  danger  can  arise.  If  the  proposed  changes  would  ex- 
clude some  young  men  well  qualified,  they  would  also,  probably,  exclude  more  who 
had  not  sufficient  experience  for  the  important  duties  of  legislation;  and  those  who 
were  qualified,  would  be  still  better  qualified,  after  a  few  more  years  devoted  to  the 
acquisition  of  knowledge  and  experience. 

The  question  being  taken,  the  motion  of  Mr.  Bayly  was  negatived — Ayes  37,  Noes 
45.    (Mr.  Marshall  Aye,  Messrs.  Madison  and  Monroe,  JYo.) 

The  seventh  resolution  was  then  read  as  follows : 
Resolved,  That  no  person  ought  to  be  elected  a  member  of  the  House  of  Delegates 
of  this  State,  who  is  not  at  least  twenty-five  years  of  age." 

Mr.  Henderson  moved  to  amend  it,  so  as  to  make  the  age  of  a  Delegate  twenty-one 
instead  of  twenty-five. 

Mr.  Doddridge  opposed  the  motion,  and  it  was  lost — Ayes  37.    (Mr.  Madison 
among  the  Ayes.) 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Mercer,  the  Committee  then  proceeded  to  the  consideration  of 
the  report  of  the  Executive  Committee. 

The  first  resolution  having  been  read  as  follows  : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Chief  Executive  Office  of  this  Commonwealth,  ought  to  be 
vested  in  a  Governor." 

Mr.  Doddridge  moved  the  following  amendment: 

"  To  be  elected  once  in  every  three  years,  at  the  time  of  the  general  annual  elec- 
tions, by  the  persons  qualified  to  vote  for  the  most  numerous  branch  of  the  General 
Assembly." 

Mr.  Henderson  moved  to  amend  Mr.  Doddridge's  amendment,  by  inserting  the 
words  "  most  numerous  branch  of,"  which  was  accepted  by  Mr.  D.  as  a  modification. 

Mr.  Leigh  moved  to  amend  the  amendment  by  striking  out  the  words  after  "  elect- 
ed," and  inserting  "  to  be  elected  by  the  two  Houses  of  the  General  Assembly." 

Mr.  Leigh  said  here  was  a  proposition  of  the  Legislative  Committee  to  elect  a  Go- 
vernor.   The  second  resolution  is  to  abolish  the  Council.    The  proposition  of  the 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


465 


gentleman  from  Brooke,  is  to  give  the  election  to  the  qualified  voters.  If  this  amend- 
ment were  rejected,  the  Constitution  would  stand  as  it  now  stands.  He  wished  to 
know  if  such  be  the  fact. 

At  the  suggestion  of  the  Chair,  who  said  that  if  no  proposition  to  amend  were  car- 
ried, the  Constitution  would  remain  as  it  was,  Mr.  Leigh  withdrew  his  motion  to 
amend. 

Mr.  Leigh  then  called  upon  gentlemen  for  some  reasons,  founded  on  practical  views, 
for  the  change  they  required.    Upon  them  was  the  onus  prohandi. 

Mr.  Powell  regretted  that  the  state  of  his  voice  prevented  him  from  taking  the 
course  which  he  otherwise  would,  by  presentmg  the  amendment  which  he  had  him- 
self moved  to  this  whole  report.  Mr.  P.  then  moved  to  pass  by  the  resolution,  and  to 
take  up  the  other  reports. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said  he  did  not  know  that  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  had  any 
right  to  call  upon  him  to  answer  interrogatories.  It  was  a  practice  growing  upon  the 
Convention.  He  had  been  a  few  days  ago  charged  with  being  cognizant  of  a  motion 
in  the  House  of  Delegates,  when  he  was  not  a  member  of  that  branch,  but  he  was  not 
permitted  to  explain,  and  to  deny  that  he  was  a  member;  and  the  gentleman  then 
proceeded  to  ask  him  questions  as  to  what  he  would  do  in  certain  cases.  Pie  denied 
this  right,  and  declared  that  he  was  at  liberty  to  address  the  Committee  on  the  sub- 
ject of  his  proposition,  or  to  submit  it  to  a  silent  vote.  He  suggested  to  the  gentleman 
from  Frederick,  to  permit  the  question  now  to  be  taken  on  the  report,  and  reserve  his 
argument  for  a  future  stage  of  the  proceedings. 

Mr.  Powell  persisted  in  his  motion,  and  gave  the  reasons  which  induced  him  to  view 
the  election  of  the  Governor,  as  the  most  important  question  which  was  likely  to  arise 
in  the  consideration  of  this  report. 

Mr.  Mercer  said  that  as  it  was  at  his  instance,  the  report  of  the  Executive  Committee 
was  taken  up,  he  felt  it  necessary  to  make  a  few  observations,  with  respect  to  the  mo- 
tion made  by  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Powell).  If  he  thought  that  the 
gentleman  from  Frederick,  from  his  present  indisposition,  would  do  any  injustice  to 
the  advocacy  of  the  substitute  w^hich  he  submitted,  for  the  Executive  report,  he  cer- 
tainly would  not  press  the  decision  at  the  present  time.  But  if  that  gentleman  would 
reflect  and  perceive  the  converse  of  his  argument,  he  would  find  that  we  were  invol- 
ved in  the  same  difficulty  from  which  he  wished  to  extricate  himself.  On  this  prin- 
ciple we  cannot  proceed  one  step ;  we  cannot  move  at  all.  It  was  objected  the  other 
day  when  it  was  proposed  to  take  this  report  under  consideration,  that  it  would  be  im- 
proper, until  we  had  settled  the  whole  basis  of  Representation.  There  is  no  report, 
which  does  not,  in  part,  involve  in  its  consideration,  that  of  another  report.  The 
Executive  depends  on  the  Legislative,  and  the  Judicial  on  both^^the  Legislative  and 
Executive  Departments.  We  cannot  decide  any  proposition  separately  :  every  ques- 
tion is  argued  hypotheticalJy  in  the  Committee,  and  inferences  are  drawn  in  this 
manner.  Suppose  the  Executive  power  is  to  be  enlarged,  then  we  are  to  consider 
the  expediency  of  vesting  the  power  of  appointment  in  the  people ;  if  the  Executive 
powers  remain  as  they  are,  then  we  must  consider  whether  he  is  to  be  appointed  ac- 
cording to  the  present  Constitution.  At  last  when  we  have  settled  the  question  in 
the  Committee,  we  then  go  into  the  Plouse,  with  a  full  knowledge  of  the  whole  prin- 
ciples of  the  proposition,  and  we  can  vote  and  decide,  not  hypothetically.  If  then  it 
was  decided,  that  the  Executive  is  to  be  elected  by  the  people,  he  would  vote  to  give 
him  powers  to  act  independently  of  the  Legislature.  If  the  Executive  was  made  the 
creature  of  the  Legislature,  he  would  regulate  his  vote  accordingly.  He  said  the  gen- 
tleman from  Frederick,  would  have  an  opportunity  to  offer  his  substitute  hereafter. 
The  Executive  report  will  be  open  to  amendment :  he  hoped,  therefore,  he  would  with- 
draw his  motion,  so  that  the  report  might  be  considered. 

Mr.  Leigh  asked,  if  it  was  or  was  not  parliamentary,  to  ask  of  the  friends  of  a  pro- 
position to  give  their  reasons  for  it. 

The  Chair  said  there  war,  no  parliamentary  rule  on  the  subject.  The  only  rule  is 
to  avoid  personality,  and  imputation  of  motive. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  he  was  sure  he  had  attributed  no  personal  motive.  He  asked  the 
gentleman  from  Brooke,  if  he  supposed,  he  had  any  authority  for  carrying  a  propo- 
sition through  the  House,  without  assigning  any  reasons,  or,  if  he  had  a  right  to  take 
offence  against  any  one  for  requiring  reasons?  He  wished  to  know,  if  it  was  to  be 
expected  that  a  system  which  has  all  the  sanctions  of  time  in  its  favour,  was  to  be  at 
once  changed  at  the  suggestion  of  the  gentleman,  without  any  reasons  being  as- 
signed. He  had  thought  our  object  was  to  compare  our  reasons,  and  he  was  willing 
to  meet  the  consequences  of  any  change  of  reasons.  When  he  submitted  a  pro- 
position, he  considered  himself  required  to  state  any  reasons  without  any  specific 
call. 

Mr.  Doddridge  wished  to  say  one  word.  The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  had 
made  an  amendment  to  his  proposition,  and  before  he  sat  down,  seemed  to  call  on  him 
in  a  somewhat  peremptory  manner.    He  stated  that  he  was  as  little  disposed  as  any 

59 


466 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


man  to  look  at  the  conduct  of  any  one  in  an  unfavourable  view ;  and  was  as  ready  to 
make  this  explanation  to  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  as  to  any  gentleman.  He 
said,  that  as  this  projoosition  was  to  be  submitted  to  the  people,  and  the  subject  had  been 
sufficiently  discussed,  he  had  a  right  to  leave  the  question  to  be  taken,  without  giving 
any  reasons. 

After  an  explanation  from  Mr.  Leigh  and  Mr.  Doddridge,  Mr.  Powell  withdrew  his 
motion  to  pass  by  the  proposition. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  he  would  now  assign  his  reasons  for  the  proposed  change  in 
the  Executive,  and  he  would  do  so,  without  adverting  to  any  of  the  existing  abuses  in 
its  constitution.  In  the  first  place,  he  objected  in  theory  to  its  power  of  appointment, 
as  sufficient  to  show  that  the  Executive  Department  should  undergo  a  new  organiza- 
tion. If  we  are  agreed  on  any  one  principle  which  has  been  discussed  amongst  us,  it 
is  that  the  Executive,  Legislative,  and  Judicial  Departments  of  the  Government, 
should  be  separated,  and  that  the  duties  of  neither  should  be  exercised  by  another  de- 
partment.   This,  with  some  exceptions,  would  be  admitted  as  a  general  rule. 

What  is  the  Executive  of  Virginia.?  It  is  nothing  more  nor  less,  than  an  emana- 
tion of  the  Legislative  pov/er.  He  is  appointed  every  year,  and  is  responsible,  only 
to  those  to  whom  he  is  looking  for  a  re-appointment.  And  the  Executive  Magistrate 
by  an  interpretation  of  the  Constitution,  has  been  deprived  of  all  Executive  power. 
By  a  construction  which  was  given  to  it,  in  the  time  of  General  Wood,  it  was  decided^ 
that  when  the  Executive  Council  was  divided,  the  Governor  had  no  power  to  give  a 
casting  vote.  This  was  the  prevailing  doctrine  to  the  present  time.  The  Governor 
requires  no  other  qualification,  than  to  be  a  gentleman,  to  be  enabled  to  fill  his  office. 
All  he  has  to  do,  is  to  write  his  name  when  commanded;  and  not  till  he  is  com- 
manded by  the  Executive  Council,  can  he  do  so.  He  is  the  creature  of  the  Legisla- 
ture and  not  of  the  people,  and  he  is  responsible  to  the  Legislature  alone,  except  when 
the  process  of  impeachment  is  resorted  to;  and  from  the  tenure  of  office,  it  would  be 
useless.  He  understood  from  the  ISTotes  of  Mr.  Jeffisrson,  that  the  Executive  was 
nothing  but  an  emanation  of  the  Legislative  power.  He  had  not  the  Notes  here  now, 
but  he  had  read  them  so  often,  and  they  made  such  an  impression  on  him,  that  he 
could  readily  give  their  substance.  Mr.  Jefferson  proved,  that  the  Executive  was  not 
a  co-ordinate  branch  of  the  Government ;  that  it  was  not  responsible  to  the  people. 
The  conclusion  was,  that  the  Executive  power  resulted  in  the  Legislative  body.  It 
was  asked  had  the  Judicial  body  a  sufficiency  of  independence.  Their  tenure  is,  quam 
(Liu  scsc  bene  gesserint.  This  did  not  make  a  Judge  independent,  because  after  pro- 
viding an  adequate  salary,  the  words,  "  which  shall  not  be  denied  during  the  continu- 
ance of  offi.ce,"  are  omitted. 

The  Legislature  could  thus  starve  a  Judge  out  of  office.  The  Judiciary  is  in  fine  de- 
pendent on  the  Legislature.  What  are  the  words  of  Mr.  Jefferson.?  "  When  all  the 
powers  of  Government,  Legislative,  Executive  and  Judicial,  result  to  the  Legislative 
body,  and  the  concentration  of  them  is  in  the  same  hands,  it  is  a  precise  definition  of 
despotic  power."  Independent  of  this  authority,  is  it  not  so  in  fact .?  What  can  prevent 
the  Executive  Council  from  doing  an  unpopular  act,  since  they  are  not  farther  ac- 
countable to  the  General  Assembly,  and  have  no  motive  to  induce  them  to  act  pro- 
perly, except  that  the  General  Assembly  may  not  re-elect  them 

Another  defect  is,  that  effectually  and  efficiently  they  are  in  no  manner  responsible. 
In  the  Council,  which  consists  of  eight  members,  unless  there  is  a  majority  on  every 
question,  the  Governor  has  no  responsibility.  The  Executive  Council  is  periodically 
removed,  not  appointed,  and  this  was  a  most  odious  and  disgusting  office.  Two  of  the 
eight  must  go  out,  and  this  circumstance  creates  amongst  them  a  disposition  to  elec- 
tioneer in  the  General  Assembly  against  each  other.  The  result  is,  the  dishonour  of 
him  who  is  removed  from  office. 

Among  the  complaints  which  brought  this  Convention  together,  and  which  were 
published  in  the  Gazettes  of  the  country,  was  one  against  the  E'xecutive.  After  the 
extension  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  what  the  people  next  desired,  was  the  establish- 
ment of  an  independent,  responsible  Executive.  If  the  Executive  Council  be  abol- 
ished, tlie  Governor  will  be  responsible  for  whatever  abuse  may  be  committed,  and 
there  will  be  no  necessity  to  refer  for  the  Ayes  and  Noes  to  the  Executive  Council 
book.  The  objections  against  the  Executive,  would  come  with  greater  force,  espe- 
cially if  he  be  invested  v/ith  the  pov/er  of  making  appoiutments. 

The  objection,  therefore,  to  the  constitution  of  the  present  Executive,  is,  being  an 
emanation  of  the  Legislative  body;  as  lacking  independence,  and,  as  not  possessing 
the  power  necessary  for  the  Executive  of  any  country.  He  would  not  go  further  in 
his  argument.  It  was  said  that  no  abuses  existed;  that  none  had  taken  place  under 
the  present  system.  He  was  not  prepared  to  go  into  this  subject;  yet  all  had  not 
given  satisfaction.  Many  of  the  appointments  have  given  dissatisfaction  ;  there  have 
been  many  made  independent  of,  and  against  the  nomination  of  the  county  courts. 
There  was  another  subject  which  he  had  omitted  to  mention.  An  increase  of  power 
has  devolved  upon  the  Executive  by  an  enactment  of  the  Legislature.    He  referred 


DEBATES   OP  THE  CONVENTION. 


46f 


to  the  administration  of  the  Literary  Fund,  and  of  the  fund  for  Internal  Improvement ; 
the  distribution  of  which  the  Executive  possesses,  not  in  virtue  of  any  constitutional 
power  it  enjoys  in  this  respect,  but  by  an  enactment  of  the  Legislature.  The  con- 
sideration surely  shews  the  necessity  of  there  being  a  greater  responsibility  on  the 
part  of  the  Executive.  He  had  briefly  and  imperfectly  assigned  his  objections  to  the 
present  system.  As  to  the  power  of  impeaching  the  Executive,  it  was  futile.  We 
were  not  an  impeaching  people.  There  was  but  one  impeachmxent  which  ever  took 
place  here,  and  that  was  made  at  the  request  of  the  gentleman  himself.  But  as  to  the 
impeachment  of  a  Governor,  whose  tenure  of  office  is  but  one  jrear,  it  was  useless,  as 
-  his  time  would  expire  before  the  impeachment  could  be  effected. 

Mr.  Morgan  said,  he  would  suggest  an  amendment  to  his  colleague,  to  strike  out 
the  word  three,"  and  leave  a  blank.  He  had  intended  to  vote  for  the  appointment 
of  the  Executive  by  the  Legislature,  if  the  election  was  made  annually.  His  reason 
for  making  this  motion  was,  to  have  the  most  responsible  Executive  in  the  United 
States,  which  he  thought  would  be  thus  attained.  The  blank  m.ay  be  again  filled  vvith 
^'  two,"  or  with  "  three,"  if  the  Committee  prefer  the  latter  number.  For  himself,  he 
preferred  that  the  appointment  should  be  made  every  two  years,  if  the  Executive  is 
to  be  elected  directly  by  the  people;  but  if  by  the  General  Assembly,  he  preferred  an 
annual  election,  as  the  Executive  was  thus  held  as  a  tenancy  from  year  to  year,  and 
therefore  more  responsible.  An  annual  election  by  the  people  would  be  inconvenient ; 
an  annual  election  by  the  Legislature,  constituted  as  that  body  now  is,  he  would  never 
consent  to.    He  would  move  that  the  word    three"  be  stricken  out. 

Mr.  Doddridge  accepted  the  modification  proposed  by  his  colleague. 

Mr.  Morgan  said,  he  would  further  remark,  that  he  was  opposed  to  the  augmenta- 
tion of  power  in  the  Executive  branch  of  the  Government.  It  was  dangerous.  He 
thought  the  weakest  Executive  in  the  world  to  be  the  best.  It  v/as  the  safest.  No 
original  good  whatever  can  result  to  tlie  people  from  the  power  of  this  brancii.  It  is 
the  business  of  the  Executive  to  see  that  the  laws  sliall  be  faithfully  executed.  All 
good  resulting  from  Government  to  the  people,  must  originate  and  come  from  the 
Legislature.  It  can  originate  no  where  else.  But  so  far  as  the  Executive  is  con- 
cerned in  the  execution  of  the  laws,  there  ought  to  be  a  high  responsibility.  He 
would  vote  for  the  amendment,  but  against  every  thing  calculated  to  augment  Exe- 
cutive power  or  influence.    He  wished  to  keep  that  branch  feeble. 

Mr.  Doddridge  accepted  the  motion  as  a  modification  of  his  amendment,  so  as  to 
leave  the  term  of  service  blank  for  the  present. 

Mr.  Nicholas  addressed  the  Committee  as  follows  : 

It  appears  to  me,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  we  are  passing  over  vital  interests,  rapidly, 
and  without  due  consideration.  This  is  one  of  the  most  important  branches  of  the 
Government,  and  a  sense  of  duty  impels  me,  to  state  the  result  of  my  reflections  on 
the  subject.  There  is  also,  a  relation,  in  which  I  stand  to  this  question,  which  renders 
it  proper  that  I  should  address  the  Committee.  I  had  the  honour  to  submit  to  the 
Executive  Committee,  of  which  I  was  a  mtember,  a  proposition  relative  to  the  Execu- 
tive Department;  which  since,  with  the  consent  of  the  Convention,  was  laid  on  the 
table,  and  referred  to  this  Committee.  I  have  announced  my  intention,  to  submit  it 
as  a  substitute  for  a  part  of  the  report  of  the  Executive  Committee.  The  resolution 
now  before  the  Committee,  is  limited  to  the  declaration,  that  the  Governor  ought  to 
be  elected  by  the  people,  instead  of  the  Legislature,  But  there  are  other  matters 
connected  with  the  organization  of  the  Executive  Department,  which  have  been  al- 
ready adverted  to  in  debate,  and  which,  in  truth,  will  have  an  important  bearing  on 
the  question  now  before  the  Committee.  The  proposition  I  submitted,  was,  that  the 
ninth  and  tenth  sections  of  the  Constitution  should  be  retained,  and  that  the  eleventh 
should  be  substituted  by  a  new  section,  which  provides  for  retaining  four  members  of 
the  Council,  one  of  them  to  be  chosen  and  act  as  Lieutenant  Governor ;  half  the 
Council  to  go  out  at  the  end  of  two  3'ears,  the  other  two  at  the  end  of  four,  so  that 
though  the  members  are  to  be  re-eligible,  it  shall  be  in  the  power  of  the  Assembly,  if 
necessary,  to  renovate  half  the  body  once  in  two  years.  It  is  also  proposed  to  abolish 
the  present  mode  of  ejecting  members  from  the  Council,  and  to  allow  them  salaries, 
moderate  but  adequate. 

It  is  stated  by  the  gentleman  from  Brooke,  (Mr.  Doddridge)  that  one  object  of 
calling  the  Convention,  was  to  abohsb  the  Executive  Council.  I  do  not  know  what 
other  gentlemen's  constituents  may  think  on  the  subject,  but  I  believe  mine  have  ex- 
pressed no  opinion  on  the  matter,  and  I  feel  myself  free  to  consult  m}^  own  views  of 
what  is  right  and  proper. 

I  admit,  that  I  have  my  fears,  that  any  attempt  that  I  may  make  to  defend  the 
Council,  will  prove  fruitless,  because  many  seem  to  entertain  strong  prepossessions 
against  it.  But  this  will  not  deter  me  from  doing  my  duty,  in  endeavouring  to  de- 
monstrate, that  the  public  interests  will  be  promoted,  by  preserving  tliis  branch  of  the 
Executive,  under  certain  modifications.  Whether  the  Council  ought  to  be  abolished, 
depends  upon  our  ideas,  of  what  are  the  proper  characteristics  of  Ihe  Executive  De- 


468 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


partment.  I  take  it  for  granted,  that  every  gentleman  would  think  it  proper,  to  con- 
struct the  Executive  Department  on  principles  suited  to  republican  institutions.  The 
Government  from  which  we  were  separated  by  the  Revolution,  was  one  which  con- 
centrated inordinate  authority  in  the  hands  of  a  single  Executive  Magistrate.  The 
monarch  had  the  powers  of  war  and  peace,  was  the  fountain  of  honour  and  office, 
and  could  increase  the  House  of  Peers,  who  are  a  body  of  hereditary  nobles,  to  an 
unlimited  extent.  Look  at  the  preamble  to  your  Constitution,  which  enumerates  the 
causes  which  induced  our  ancestors  to  separate  from  Great  Britain,  and  you  will  see, 
that  our  revolution  was  to  a  great  extent,  founded  on  the  tyrannical  and  oppressive 
exercise  of  the  vast  powers  and  prerogatives  of  the  British  King.  Smarting  as  our 
ancestors  did,  under  what  they  declared  to  be  "  a  detestable  and  insupportable  tyranny," 
it  was  natural  as  well  as  proper,  that  in  the  Government  the}''  were  about  to  establish, 
they  sliould  endeavour  to  conform  the  structure  of  the  Executive  Department  to  the 
genius  of  a  Republic.  But,  now,  we  are  about,  it  would  seem,  to  depart  from  these 
principles.  We  are  to  have  a  splendid  Executive.  It  is  contemplated  to  vest  this 
authority  in  a  single  magistrate  ;  and  the  appointment  to  all  offices  in  the  gift  of  this 
Department,  is  to  be  given  to  him,  as  some  contend,  without  controul,  and  as  others 
maintain,  with  no  other  check,  save  the  power  of  rejecting  his  nominations  by  the 
Senate.  I  am  not  prepared  for  this.  The  gentleman  from  Monongalia,  (Mr.  Mor- 
gan,) says  he  is  for  a  feeble  Executive.  This  is  not  precisely  the  phrase  I  would 
adopt.  I  wish  the  Executive  to  have  power  enough  to  execute  the  laws  and  no 
more.  I  would  not  invest  it  with  splendor,  or  extensive  patronage,  or  make  it  the 
mark,  or  instrument  of  inordinate  ambition.  Our  Executive  as  at  present  constituted, 
is  simple  and  unostentatious.  Your  Governor  is  nothing  more  than  a  citizen  called 
upon,  temporarily,  to  execute  the  laws;  this  done,  he  returns  to  the  level  of  the  great 
body  of  the  people.  Whilst  in  office,  he  has  with  the  advice  of  the  Council  all  the 
power  which  is  necessary  to  give  efficacy  to  your  Government.  What  more  can  be 
desired.^  If  you  invest  all  power  and  extensive  patronage  in  a  single  magistrate,  you 
create  a  petty  monarchy.  The  gentlemen  who  are  on  the  other  side  of  this  question, 
admit  the  propriety  of  interposing  checks  to  prevent  the  abuse  of  power  in  the  other 
Departments  of  Government ;  but  the  framers  of  our  Constitution  felt  that  these 
checks  were  equally,  indeed,  more  necessary  in  the  Executive.  The  check  they  in- 
terposed, was  the  Executive  Council.  This  is  a  constitutional  body,  not  dependent 
on  the  Governor. 

The  President  of  the  United  States  has  enormous  powers  and  patronage,  and  he 
has  no  constitutional  Council.  The  Constitution  authorises  him  to  call  for  the  opinion 
of  the  principal  officer,  in  each  of  the  Executive  Departments,  upon  any  subject  re- 
lating to  the  duties  of  his  office ;  and  usage  has  erected  these  officers  into  what  is 
called  the  Cabinet.  But  there  is  all  the  diiference  in  the  world  between  such  a  body, 
and  a  Council  organized  as  ours.  These  Executive  officers  hold  at  the  will  of  the 
President,  and  he  can  act  without,  or  contrary  to  their  advice.  The  Governor  can  do 
no  important  act,  without  the  advice  of  Council.  They  not  only  know  his  acts,  but 
they  understand  the  motives  and  secret  springs  which  set  these  acts  in  motion.  If 
you  entrust  power  to  one  man  to  act  in  the  dark,  and  without  the  possibility  of  de- 
termining his  motives,  you  give  facilities  and  temptations  to  do  wrong,  you  enable 
him  to  indulge  a  spirit  of  favouritism,  and  to  confer  offices,  in  pi'omotion  of  objects  of 
personal  ambition. 

By  a  constitutional  Council,  you  superadd  to  the  responsibility  of  the  Governor,  the 
means,  if  not  of  preventing  the  formation  of  improper  schemes,  yet  of  their  being 
carried  into  effect. 

But,  it  is  proposed  to  give  the  election  of  Governor  to  the  people.  It  seems  to  me, 
that  the  power  is  essentially  exercised  by  the  people,  when  carried  into  effect  by  their 
immediate  representatives.  Both  the  Governor  and  the  members  of  the  Legislature 
are  elected  for  short  periods,  which  constitutes  a  sufficient  security  for  the  proper  ex- 
ercise of  this  power  of  appointment,  by  those  to  whom  the  present  Constitution  has 
entrusted  it.  This  is  one  of  those  selections  for  office,  which  can  be  best  exercised 
by  intermediate  agents.  It  is  impossible  that  the  candidates  for  Governor,  can  be 
known  but  in  a  very  few  counties  of  the  State.  But,  to  the  members  of  the  Legis- 
lature, who  are  on  the  scene  of  action,  all  the  public  men  of  the  State,  who  would  be 
fit  for  the  station,  would  be  known,  and  they  could  make  the  best  choice.  If  the 
Governor  is  to  be  elected  by  the  people  at  large,  they  must  depend  upon  the  repre- 
sentations made  to  them  of  the  characters  of  the  candidates.  The  persons  who  may 
make  these  representations,  will,  in  effect,  control  the  election.  In  the  one  case,  then, 
the  elections  would  be  made  by  the  representatives  of  the  people,  acting  under  a 
sense  of  duty  and  official  responsibility';  in  the  other,  by  the  influence  of  heated  and 
interested  partizans. 

But  it  is  said,  that  the  creation  of  a  single  Executive  magistrate,  and  vesting  his 
choice  in  the  people,  will  increase  responsibility.  Strange,  that  a  large  increase  of 
power,  and  the  investiture  in  a  single  hand,  should  have  tliat  effect.    It  is  further 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


469 


said,  that  the  existence  of  the  Council  destroys  all  responsibility  in  the  Governor. 
Tills  is  not  so.  The  Governor  cannot  act  vdthout  the  advice  of  Council,  and  that 
advice  is  to  be  spread  on  their  journal,  signed  by  each  member,  and  laid  before  the 
Legislature  when  required ;  besides,  any  member  may  enter  his  protest.  The  Gover- 
nor and  Council  then,  are  both  responsible ;  the  former  for  following,  or  not  following 
their  advice,  and  the  latter  for  that  which  they  give.  I  beg  gentfemen  before  they 
adopt  a  svstem  which  gives  all  power  and  patronage  to  one  man,  and  the  election  of 
him  to  the  people,  to  turn  their  eyes  to  the  operation  of  this  system  in  our  sister 
States.  Look  at  Xew  York,  Pennsylvania  and  Kentucky.  It  appears  from  the  de- 
bates of  the  Convention  in  New  York,  that  before  the  recent  change  in  her  Consti- 
tution, about  eight  thousand  offices,  were  in  the  gift  of  the  Executive,  including 
niihtia  appointments,  prothonotaries  and  a  multitude  of  smaller  offices.  Whenever 
the  election  comes  round,  in  some  of  these  States,  the  community  is  convulsed  to  the 
centre.  Every  man  is  made  an  office-hunter  and  dabbler  in  elections.  As  soon  as 
a  new  Governor  is  elected,  all  the  incumbents  in  office  go  by  tlie  board.  And  then 
begins  a  new  struggle,  so  that  the  State  is  kept  in  continual  ferment  and  agitation. 
The  inevitable  effiict  of  these  systems  is,  not  only  to  destroy  the  peace  and  happiness 
of  the  people,  but  to  undermine  their  political  morality.  Under  our  plan,  the  machine 
of  Government  works  so  smoothly,  that  whilst  our  Executive  possesses  power  all-suf- 
ficient to  execute  the  laws,  no  sensation  is  felt  on  the  change  of  the  Chief  ^Magistrate, 
and  it  is  not  unlikely  that  many  citizens  of  the  State  are  frequently  ignorant  who  the 
Governor  is,  unless  he  happens  to  be  a  man  who  has  acquired  distinction  in  other 
pohtical  stations. 

But  it  is  objected  by  tlie  gentleman  from  Brooke,  (Mr.  Doddridge.)  that  in  giving 
the  election  of  the  Governor  to  the  Legislature,  you  violate  that  valuable  pohtical 
maxim,  which  requires  the  different  departments  to  be  kept  separate  and  distinct.  If 
the  gentleman  will  advert  to  the  forty-seventh  Number  of  the  Federahst.  in  which 
this  subject  is  discussed,  he  will  find  that  the  true  meaning  of  the  maxim  laid  down 
by  Montesquieu,  is  that  where  the  ichole imicer  of  one  department  is  exercised  by  the 
same  hands  which  possess  the  ichole  poicer  of  another  department,  the  fundamental 
principles  of  a  free  Constitution  are  subverted."  And  that  he  did  not  mean,  "'that 
these  departments  ought  to  have  no  partial  agency  in.  or  no  controul  over,  the  acts  of 
each  other,"  And  this  Number  also  demonstrates  by  reference  to  the  British  Govern- 
ment, and  the  Governments  of  the  different  States  (to  which  may  be  now  added,  that 
of  the  United  States.)  that  it  is  extremely  difficult,  if  not  unpossible,  to  prevent  the 
powers  of  one  department  from  running  into  those  of_another.  Besides,  how  does  the 
power  of  appointment  of  Governor,  confer  on  the  Legislature,  Executive  power  in 
the  sense  in  which  the  maxim  before  quoted,  can  alone  apply .'  As  weR  mi^ht  it  be 
contended,  that  the  appointment  of  the  Judges,  confers  on  the  Legislature, "Judicial 
powers. 

But  the  gentleman  from  Brooke,  says  the  Governor  has  no  power ;  he  is  a  mere 
cypher.  I  do  not  think  so.  He  is  not  boxmd  to  obey  the  advice  of  the  Council.  It 
is  true  he  cannot  act  without  their  advice,  but  he  can,  after  they  give  it,  execute  it  or 
not,  on  his  responsibility.  This  is  the  uniform  construction  which  has  been  put  on 
the  Constitution.  Besides,  my  plan  proposes,  that  when  the  Council  is  divided,  the 
Governor  shall  have  the  easting  vote.  How  does  it  appeaj,  that  the  Governor  and 
Council  have  not  adequate  power  i  Have  they  not  the  power  to  execute  the  laws  ? 
And  have  not  the  laws  been  always  executed Why  give  them  more  power  .-  It  can 
only  be  necessary  to  confer  splendor  and  patronage.  The  powers  of  the  Executive 
are  very  considerable.  It  must  be  so  in  every  Government  in  a  State  as  large  as 
this.  The  power  of  executing  the  laws  must  always  be  commensurate  with  the 
legislation  of  a  country.  They  have  the  power  of  appointing  magistrates,  sheriffs, 
all  the  militia  officers,  and  many  others,  and  the  power  of  filhnor  vacancies  in  various 
offices  during  the  recess  of  the  Legislature.  They  have  also  a  general  superinten- 
dence of  all  the  departments,  subordinate  to  them,  the  Treasurer's  office,  those  of  the 
Auditors,  the  Penitentiary,  to  which  may  be  added,  the  Boards  of  Internal  Improve- 
ment and  the  Literary  Fund.  Can  any  one  man  discharofe  these  various  important 
duties .'  In  the  exercise  of  the  power  of  appointment,  can  the  Governor  possess  the 
local  information,  or  the  knowledge  of  men  dispersed  over  this  great  State  which 
would  enable  him  to  make  proper  selections  .'  With  a  Council  of  four,  elected  with 
any  reference  to  this  object,  he  would  have  always  at  hand,  the  means  of  makino;  a 
judicious  choice. 

There  is  one  power  vested  in  the  Executive,  which  I  should  be  unvriUing  to  confer 
on  any  individual.  I  mean  the  power  of  pardon.  Is  there  any  o-entlemanliere,  who 
is  willing  so  to  invest  tlus  power,  which  may  involve  the  liberty  ."and  even  the  life  of 
any  citizen  of  the  land.'  There  is  no  man,  however  elevated,"  however  prosperous, 
however  virtuous  or  chcumspect,  such  is  the  frailty  of  our  nature,  and  such  are  the 
accidents  and  vicissitudes  of  life,  who  may  not  either  in  his  own  person,  or  that  of 
ills  connexions,  have  a  deep  interest  in  the  exercise  of  tliis  power. 


470 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


The  idea  advanced  by  some,  that  the  Council  may  be  dispensed  with,  by  taking  the 
advice  of  the  Treasurer,  Auditors,  and  some  other  officers  of  Government,  is  not,  in 
my  mind,  one  which  can  be  sustained.  The  objects  for  which  these  officers  are 
selected,  are  entirely  distinct,  and  they  may  require  different  qualifications.  But 
what  seems  conclusive,  is,  that  these  officers  are  under  the  supervision,  and  to  a  cer- 
tain extent,  the  controul  of  the  Executive,  and  have  already  laborious  duties  to  per- 
form, which  occupy  all  their  time.  It  is  the  opinion  of  others,  that  we  should  con- 
form our  Executive  to  the  model  of  that  of  the  United  States.  I  should  be  more  dis-  \ 
posed,  had  I  the  power,  to  reverse  this  proposition.  The  powers  of  the  Federal  Ex- 
ecutive are  enormous,  and  its  patronage  most  extensive.  For  this  cause,  we  see  the 
nation  frequently  convulsed  in  the  choice  of  this  magistrate.  The  office  of  President 
overshadows  every  other  part  of  the  Government.  His  election  absorbs  the  wishes 
and  thoughts  of  a  large  portion  of  the  nation.  Other  elections,  and  political  mea- 
sures of  vital  importance,  are  too  often  made  subservient  to  the  advancement  of  the 
interests  of  favorite  candidates  for  the  Presidency.  It  is  much  to  be  feared,  that  the 
conflicts  which  take  place  for  this  glittering  object  of  ambition,  may  more  endanger 
the  permanency  of  our  General  Government  than  any  thing  else  which  can  happen 
to  it.  The  remedy  would  be  found  in  diminishing  the  power,  or,  at  least  the  pa- 
tronage of  the  Executive  of  the  United  States. 

It  may  be  well  supposed^  however,  that  there  are  some  of  the  powers  which  are 
conferred  on  the  Executive  of  the  Union  which  may  be  necessary  to  it,  but  would 
be  entirely  otherwise,  as  applied  to  the  State  Government.  In  the  United  States,  are 
invested,  the  powers  of  war  and  peace,  the  regulation  of  commerce,  and  the  manage- 
ment of  our  external  relations.  The  cares  of  the  State  Government  are  principally 
confined  to  the  regulation  of  our  internal  affairs.  And  for  the  management  of  these, 
the  powers  we  have  given  the  Executive  have  been  found  amply  sufficient,  and  to 
have  been  judiciously  arranged,  under  the  existing  Government. 

The  gentleman  from  Brooke  says,  that  the  impeachment  to  which  the  Governor  is 
liable,  is  a  mere  nominal  thing ;  it  contains  no  terror,  because  he  can  only  be  im- 
peached after  his  office  ceases.  But  will  the  gentleman  recollect,  that  if  convicted 
on  impeachment,  he  may  be  disabled  to  hold  any  office  in  future,  and  subjected  to 
such  pains  and  penalties  as  may  be  prescribed  by  law  ? 

The  gentlemen  who  are  against  the  Council,  under  any  modification,  have  not 
agreed  upon  what  they  will  substitute  for  it.  Now,  I  am  persuaded,  that  whenever 
they  bring  forvv'-ard  a  plan,  it  will  be  found  that  it  will  not  be  as  efficient,  or  economi- 
cal, as  the  small  Council  I  propose  to  be  retained. 

The  Executive  Committee  have  decided  there  shall  be  a  Lieutenant  Governor,  but 
iiave  as  yet,  assigned  him  no  duties. 

He  must,  if  tlie  Council  be  abolished,  be  a  salaried  officer.  There  must  be  also, 
some  other  subordinate  and  auxiliary  officers,  to  transact  the  public  business.  By 
my  plan,  the  Lieutenant  Governor  is  to  be  one  of  the  Council,  as  at  present,  and  to 
receive  no  additional  salary. 

The  Committee  will,  however,  be  better  enabled  to  decide,  on  the  intrinsic,  or  com- 
parative merits,  of  what  is  intended  to  be  substituted,  for  a  Council  under  any  modi- 
fication, when  gentlemen  shall  see  fit,  more  fully  to  develop  their  views  on  the 
subject. 

Mr.  Henderson  remarked,  that  it  was  his  misfortune,  again  to  differ  with  the  esti- 
mable gentleman  who  had  just  favored  the  Committee  with  his  views,  I  v^^ill  not, 
said  Mr.  H.,  detain  the  Committee  long,  because  I  am  aware,  that  what  I  may  say, 
will  come  recommended  neither  by  weight  of  reputation,  nor  by  any  grace  of  manner. 
I  agree,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  the  friends  of  the  proposition  itnder  consideration,  are 
bound  to  give  reasons  to  this  Convention,  and  to  the  people  themselves,  for  the  con- 
templated change,  and  sound  and  strong  reasons  too.  Unless  this  can  be  done,  let 
the  existing  mode  of  election  continue.  Such,  I  admit,  is  the  course  of  prudence  and 
common  sense.  It  really  does  appear  to  me,  Sir,  that  it  were  not  difficult  to  place 
this  matter  in  a  point  of  light,  clearly  shewing  the  propriety  of  electing  the  Chief 
Magistrate  of  the  State  by  the  citizens  in  their  primary  capacity.  The  gentleman 
from  this  city,  who  has  just  taken  his  seat,  has  amused  us  with  something  like  a  de- 
clamation upon  the  topic  of  a  splendid  Executive.  In  this,  the  gentleman  has  leaped 
before  he  reached  the  stile.  He  has  invested  the  Governor  with  an  imaginary  splen- 
dor ;  and,  having  done  this,  he  has  very  gravely  proceeded  to  prove  that  this  gorgeous 
pageant  ought  not  to  be  elected  by  the  people.  Now,  Sir,  this  is  varying  the  question 
in  a  manner  singular  enough.  We  contend  that  the  Governor  should  be  elected  by 
the  people;  and  to  prove  this  political  position  untrue,  we  are  told  that  lie  ought  not 
to  be  so  elected,  because  he  is  to  be  armed  with  great  powers,  and  arrayed  in  great 
magnificence.  The  presumption  is,  that  this  body,  in  its  wisdom,  will  give  to  this  de- 
partment of  the  Government,  such  powers  as  are  consistent  with  the  interest  and  ho- 
nor of  the  Commonwealth.  Thus  presuming,  we  are  called  upon  to  decide  on  the 
mode  of  his  election.    My  opinion  is,  that  he  ought  to  be  elected  by  the  people,  and 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION.  471 

for  the  space  of  three  years.  I  voted  for  striking  out  the  term  of  years,  conceiving  it 
more  regular  to  test  the  principle  first,  and  fill  the  blank  afterwards. 

Let  us  then,  Mr.  Chairman,  without  heeding  nicknames,  by  which  principles  are 
too  often  prejudiced,  proceed  with  the  enquiry.  And  here,  Sir,  I  venture  to  assume 
a  ground,  the  soundness  of  which  may  dety  criticism,  that,  as  an  individual  ovght,  in 
no  important  concern,  to  do  by  another  ichat  he  can  as  iccU  do  hj  himself,  so  a  people 
ought  not  to  execute  by  agency  that  to  ichich  it  is  competent  in  its  proper  original  cha- 
racter. If  this  be  true,  then,  we  have  to  ascertain  whether  the  citizens  at  large  can 
perform  this  duty,  as  well  as  their  Legislature,  or  not.  I  maintain  the  aifirmative,  not 
only  of  this  proposition,  but  of  the  other  one  ;  that  they  can  perform  it  better ;  and  that 
strong,  very  strong  objections  to  the  action  of  the  Legislature  upon  the  subject,  exist. 

What  is  the  nature  of  the  duty  ?  What  the  qualifications  necessary  to  its  discharge  ? 
Sound  understanding  and  honesty.  Are  there  any  recondite  principles  of  science 
in  the  matter?  Is  it  complete  in  its  parts  .-^  Do  any  pecuhar  difficulties  attend,  or 
obscurities  hang  over  it  ?  No  man  ought  to  be  a  Governor  of  Virginia,  who  has  not 
attained  considerable  age,  performed  eminent  public  'services,  and  required  a  diffusive 
reputation,  a  high  standing.  All  men  of  that  description  are,  in  the  very  nature  of  the 
thing,  generally  known  to  the  people.  Have  the  people,  then,  not  judgment  enough 
to  discern  who  is  fit,  and  rectitude  enough  to  have  a  sufficient  regai'd,  indeed,  for*lieir 
own  interests  and  dignity,  tu  choose  him  when  discerned  ?  I  cannot,  and  will  not,  im- 
pute to  the  sovereign  people  of  this  ancient  Commonwealth,  so  much  folly,  or  obli- 
quity as  to  doubt  it. 

It  may  not  be  amiss.  Sir,  to  advert  to  our  sister  States  for  a  moment :  eighteen  elect 
their  Chief  Magistrates  by  the  people ;  six,  including  Virginia,  by  their  Legislatures. 
This  is  not  referred  to,  in  the  expectation,  that  we  shall  blindly  follow  their  example  ;^ 
but,  in  the  hope  that  gentlemen  will  be  persuaded  to  pause,  and  ponder  on  the  fact, 
that  three-fourths  of  tlie  States  in  our  Union,  have  adopted  the  system  which  we  ad- 
vocate. 

He  who  will  study  the  European  Governments,  and  especially  that  of  England, 
will  be  struck  with  the  idea,  that  they  are  built  upon  the  ground  of  making  the  prin- 
ciples of  monarchy,  aristocracy,  and  democracy,  conflict  with  each  other  in  such  pro- 
portions, as  to  preserve  the  energy  of  the  whole.  Such  is  the  theory  of  the  British 
Government.  I  will  not  examine  it  now,  in  tlie  abstract,  or  in  its  supposed  aptitude 
or  inaptitude,  to  the  circumstances  or  character  of  that  or  any  other  people.  Suffice 
it  to  say,  that  no  American  politician  ought  to  resist  the  declaration,  that  the  theory 
of  our  Governments  is  the  sovereignty  of  the  people,  and  the  responsibility  of  their 
agents.  And,  to  maintain  this  responsibility  in  its  full  vigor,  the  wise  men  who  framed 
our  institutions,  have  so  ordered,  that  tlie  Legislative  and  Executive  Departments, 
should  emanate  directly  from  the  people  themselves.  Thus,  each  looking  to  its  source, 
will  feel  that  jealousy  of  the  other,  which  inspires  mutual  vigilance,  perpetuates  li- 
berty, and  establishes  public  security.  This  is  the  broad,  the  vital,  the  beautiful  prin- 
ciple, which  stands  substitute  for  the  European  plan  of  checks  and  balances.  This 
it  is,  that  gives  to  the  Governments  composing  our  happy  political  fraternity,  tlie 
spirit  which  assures  us,  they  will  not  prove  disloyal  to  the  societies  over  which  they 
preside.  Remove  this  responsibility,  destroy  this  laudable  and  mauly  jealousy;  and,  al- 
though circumstances  may  prostrate  the  existence  of  free  institutions,  they  are  the  sport 
of  casualty.  It  is  no  answer  to  this  argument,  to  say,  that  all  the  powers  of  the  Go- 
vernment are  vested,  not  in  one  man,  but  in  many.  Many  tyrants  are  not  more  tolera- 
ble tlian  one.  It  is  against  the  principle  of  tyranny,  that  I  struggle  with,  in  its  details. 
Sir,  said  Mr.  H.,  I  am  advancing  no  novelties.  I  am  the  humble  echo  of  the  voice  of 
the  fathers  of  the  Revohition;  the  Statesmen  whom  Virginia  has  delighted  to  honor. 
Few  of  those  to  whom  I  allude,  are  gathered  to  their  fathers;  another  graces,  by  his 
venerable  presence,  the  deliberations  of  this  body. 

Here  Mr.  H.  read  from  Jefferson's  Notes  on  Virginia,  as  follows :  "  All  the  powers, 
Legislative,  Executive,  and  Judiciary,  result  to  the  Legislative  body.  The  concentra- 
tion of  these,  in  the  same  hands,  is  precisely  the  definition  of  despotic  Government.  It 
will  be  no  alleviation,  that  these  powers  will  be  exercised  by  a  plurahty  of  hands,  and 
not  by  a  single  one.  One  hundred  and  sereiity-three  Despots,  would  surely  be  as  op' 
pressive  as  one." 

Again:  Mr.  H.  read,  '^They,  (meaning  the  Legislature,)  have,  accordingly,  in 
many  instances,  decided  rights,  which  should  have  been  left  to  Judiciary  controversy; 
ajid  tfic  direction  of  the  Execidive,  during  the  ichole  time  of  their  session,  is  becoming  ha- 
bitual and  familiar." 

He  then  referred  to  the  47th  No.  of  the  Federalist,  written  by  Mr.  Madison,  and 
read  as  follows:  "No  political  truth  is  of  greater  intrinsic  value,  or  is  stamped  with 
the  authority  of  more  enlightened  patrons  of  liberty,  than  that  on  which  the  objection 
is  founded.  The  accumulation  of  all  powers.  Legislative,  Executive  and  Judiciary,  in 
the  same  hands,  whether  of  one,  a  few,  or  many,  and  whether  hereditary,  self-ap- 
pointed, or  elective,  may.  justly  be  pronounced  the  very  definition  of  tyranny."  Mr. 


• 


472 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


H.  here  called  the  attention  of  the  Committee  to  the  40th  No.  of  the  same  work,  writ- 
ten by  the  same  gentleman,  and  read  as  follows :  "  It  is  agreed  on  all  sides,  that  the 
powers  properly  belonging  to  one  of  the  Departments  ought  not  to  be  directly  and 
completely  administered  by  either  of  the  other  Departments.  It  is  equally  evident, 
that  in  reference  to  each  other,  neither  of  them  ought  to  possess,  directly  or  indirectly, 
an  overruling  influence  in  the  administration  of  their  respective  powers."  Mr.  H.  then 
referred  to  the  51st  No.  of  the  Federalist,  written  by  General  Hamilton,  and  read  as 
follows:  "  In  order  to  lay  a  due  foundation  for  that  separate  and  distinct  exercise  of 
the  different  powers  of  Government,  which,  to  a  certain  extent,  is  admitted  to  be  es- 
sential to  the  preservation  of  liberty,  it  is  evident  that  each  Department  should  have 
a  will  of  its  own;  and,  consequently,  should  be  so  constituted,  that  the  members  of 
each  should  have  as  little  agency  as  possible  in  the  appointment  of  the  members  of  the 
others." 

Again :  "  But  the  great  security  against  a  gradual  concentration  of  the  several  pow- 
ers in  the  same  Department,  consists  in  giving  those  who  administer  each  Depart- 
ment, the  necessary  constitutional  means,  and  personal  motives,  to  resist  the  encroach- 
ments of  the  others.  The  provision  for  defence  must,  in  this,  as  in  all  other  cases, 
be  made  commensurate  to  the  danger  of  attack.  Ambition  must  be  made  to  encoun- 
ter ambition.  The  interests  of  the  man  must  be  connected  with  tlie  constitutional 
rights  of  the  place.  It  may  be  a  reflection  on  human  nature  that  such  devices  should 
be  necessary  to  control  the  abuses  of  Government.  But  what  is  Government  itself, 
but  the  greatest  of  all  reflections  on  human  nature.''  If  men  were  angels,  no  Govern- 
ment would  be  necessary.  If  angels  were  to  govern  men,  neither  external  nor  inter- 
nal controls  on  Government  would  be  necessary."  I  may,  continued  Mr.  H.,  have 
fatigued  the  attention,  or  offended  the  taste  of  the  Committee.  My  excuse.  Sir,  is 
this  :  We  are  boldly  called  on  to  give  reasons  for  the  alteration  v/e  project.  I  am 
without  consequence,  true;  unknown  to  fame,  and  without  those  powers  which  ena- 
ble some  men  to  spread  a  charm  over  every  topic  which  they  touch.  I  am  also  one 
of  a  class  of  men  denounced  as  innovators,  visionaries.  All  that  I  can  hope  is,  that 
my  arguments,  when  sustained  by  the  names  of  Jefferson,  Hamilton,  and  of  the  ho- 
nored fellow-labourer  of  Hamilton,  shall  be  particularly  and  soberly  considered.  I  ask, 
Sir,  if  my  doctrine  is  not  fully  borne  out  by  the  writings  of  those  great  men,  who, 
however  they  may  have  differed  on  other  subjects,  all  unite  in  proclaiming  the  prin- 
ciples of  the  sovereignty  of  the  people,  the  separation  of  the  different  Departments  of 
Government,  and  their  independence  of  each  other,  the  folly  and  danger  of  permitting 
the  one  Department  to  ajyjwint  the  other,  and  that  to  allow  one  an  undue  influence  indi- 
rectly, is  equivalent  to  a  direct  control.  These,  Sir,  are  the  springs  of  republican  Go- 
vernment, its  vital  elements,  the  pledges  of  its  durability,  the  rock  of  its  safety. 

Mr.  Chairman  :  Gentlemen  in  the  face  of  one  of  the  greatest  men  in  America,  the 
political  patriarch  of  Virginia,  over  the  ashes  of  his  illustrious  compatriots,  persist  in 
denying  these  great  political  truths.  They  pronounce  our  Governors  wise  and  good, 
and  challenge  us]  to  specify  acts  of  official  abuse  or  turpitude.  Surrounded  as  we 
are  by  gentlemen  who  have  acted  in  the  affairs  of  the  Executive :  mingling  as  many 
of  these  respectable  gentlemen  do  in  our  deliberations,  shall  we  perform  the  invidious 
and  painful  office  to  which  we  are  invited  ?  And  for  what?  We  are  not  scanning  the 
official  conduct  of  any  body.  We  came  here  on  no  such  errand.  Their  acts  are  em- 
bodied in  the  history  of  the  Commonwealth :  the  citizens  know  them  well.  In  the 
year  1781,  Thomas  Jefferson  prepared  his  Notes.  He  had  recently  filled  the  Chair  of 
Governor,  and  knew  better  than  any  man  in  the  State,  the  action  of  the  Legislature 
on  the  Executive.  What  does  he  say  ?  That  the  direction  of  the  Executive  by  the 
Legislature  was  habitual  and  familiar.  He  had  felt  it.  This  is  history,  not  specula- 
tion. It  proves  that  your  Governor  lias  no  loill  of  his  oicnj  that  he  is  the  creature  of 
the  Legislature  ;  a  very  man  of  straw.  * 

The  gentleman  to  whose  remarks  I  have  heretofore  alluded,  gave  us  a  fane  picture 
of  Executive  excellence;  and  finished  it  by  informing  us,  that  so  harmless  an  Execu- 
tive had  we,  that  a  great  portion  of  the  'people  actually  did  not  hnoto  ivho  the  Governor 
was.  Is  this  desirable  A  free  people,  professing  to  be  intelligent,  and  to  take  an  in- 
terest in  their  own  affairs,  not  to  know  who  their  Governor  is  !  and  to  be  felicitated 
upon  it  in  this  assemblage.  Truly,  the  gentleman  has  placed  the  sovereign  people  in 
a  most  dreamy  and  beatified  state !  Sir,  I  wish  to  arouse  them  from  their  unmanly 
torpor.  I  wish,  Sir,  that  the  people  may  know  their  Governor,  and  that  the  Governor 
may  knoiv  the  people.  Mr.  Jefferson  in  his  Notes,  states,  "  in  December,  1776,  our 
circumstances  being  much  distressed,  it  was  proposed  in  the  House  of  Delegates  to 
create  a  Dictator,  invested  with  every  power.  Legislative,  Executive,  and  Judiciary, 
civil  and  military,  of  life  and  death,  over  our  own  persons  and  over  our  own  proper- 
ties ;  and  in  June,  1781,  again  under  calamity,  the  same  proposition  was  repeated,  and 
wanted  a  few  votes  only  of  being  passed.''  Is  there  a  living  man  who  will  doubt  the 
wisdom  and  patriotism  of  the  Legislatures  of  1776,  and  1781  ?  '  Surely  the  gentleman 
from  Chesterfield,  who  seems  so  confident  that  we  can  give  no  good  reasons  for  the 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


47S 


course  we  recommend,  is  not  that  man.  The  cause,  then,  of  tliis  most  extraordinary 
and  appalling  project  of  clothing  one  man  with  absolute  despotism,  ui  order  that  the  Re- 
public might  receive  no  harm,  is  to  be  found  in  the  utter  imbecihty  of  the  Executive 
Department  of  the  Government.  Any  other  supposition,  imputes  treason  against  the 
freedom  of  the  people,  to  the  fathers  o'f  the  Revolution.  Are  we,  in  the  teeth  of  rea- 
son, against  the  advice  of  the  wise,  the  warnings  of  history,  to  continue  an  Executive 
utterly  incompetent.-  An  Executive  for  the  piping  times  of  peace,"  that  will  trem- 
ble to  its  centre  when  war  blows  its  blast .'  A  fair-weather  Government,  that  may  be 
\\-recked  on  the  first  billow  of  the  tempest  r  I  trust  not.  Sir.  No,  let  us  embark  our 
fortunes  in  a  vessel  that  will  ride  proudly  amidst  the  roarings  of  the  storm,  and  bear 
unshaken,  that  broad  pendant  of  freedom  under  the  hghtning's  flash. 

Mr.  Chairman, — I  am  not  a  gloomy  politician  ;  on  the  contrary.  I  hope  the  best  of 
men  and  things  ;  but  I  cannot  shut  my  ears  to  what  passes  around  me.  An  able  gen- 
tleman told  us,  we  ought  to  prepare  for  a  state  of  affairs  within  the  scope  of  possi- 
bility, and  to  which  alf  good  men  look  with  mournful  apprehension.  The  day  may 
come,  when  Virginia  may  be  compelled  to  take  her  rank  amongst  the  nations  of  the 
earth.  Suppose  a  scene  of  turmoil,  of  peril,  is  there  a  man  of  sense  in  the  Common- 
wealth, who  would  rest  securely,  at  such  a  crisis,  on  an  Executive  constructed  like 
ours.'  Let  us,  for  Heaven's  sake,  frame  such  a  Government  as  will  bring  out  and 
wield  the  energies  of  the  whole  people,  when  the  fortune  of  war  imperiously  de- 
mands it.  Again,  Sir  ;  the  very  term  Legislature  indicates  the  appropriate  functions 
of  the  body.  It  is  no  part  of  that  duty  to  elect  the  Executive.  How  many,  how  va- 
rious, how  difficult  the  subjects  of  legislation  '.  What  labour,  reflection,  devotion,  and 
sober-minded  men  are  necessary  to  do  justice  to  them .'  Surelv,  our  law-givers  have 
ample  employment,  if  confined  within  their  legitimate  sphere.  We  all  know  how  the 
passions,  intrigues,  combinations,  incident  to  these  elections,  asitate  any  body  of  men, 
and  unfit  them  for  that  cool  thought,  accurate  analysis,  and  profoxind  research,  so  in- 
dispensable to  pubHc  usefulness  in  tliis  great  department.  I  appeal  to  the  people  of 
Virginia,  if  the  past  is  not  a  lucid  commentary  upon  this  doctrine.  Some  gentlemen 
are  so  very  tender  of  the  public  repose,  that  they  would  not  expose  the  people  to  the 
agitations  arising  from  the  election  of  tlieir  Governor.  Sir,  I  maintain  that  a  moderate 
exercise  of  the  pubhc  mind,  has  a  most  salutary  effect  in  instructing  the  people,  in 
habituating  them  to  think  of  their  rights  and  interests,  and  in  preserving  that  vigi- 
lance and  self-respect,  which  are  the  stren^rth  and  fflory  of  a  Republic.  The  people 
will  not  thank  gentlemen  for  consulting  their  ease'hj  curtailing  their  rights.  I  am 
not  one  of  those  zealous  and  minute  pohticians,  who  would  continually  teaze  the  citi- 
zens of  the  country  with  the  election  of  constables  and  all  the  httle  machinery  of 
place.    I  despise  it;  I  will  not 

.  "  Ocean  into  tempest  work, 
To  waft  a  feather,  or  to  drown  a  fly." 

But  the  great  Legislative  and  Executive  Departments  of  Government  ought  to  be 
elected,  not  by  eacjh  other,  but  by  the  people  themselves. 

The  gentleman  from  tliis  city  told  us,  that  the  citizens  elected  the  Legislature,  and 
the  Legislature  the  Governor;  and  that,  therefore,  the  citizens  elected  the  Governor. 
Sir,  this  is  very  good  doctrine  at  that  forum  where  the  ijentleman  plays  an  eminent 
part:  but  he  will  not  be  able  to  satisfv  the  common  sense  of  his  fellow-citizens  by  this 
pohtical  special  pleading.  And  he  will  permit  me  to  express  my  surprise,  that  he 
should  so  far  play  upon  their  creduhty,  as  to  present  tliem  a  law-adage  in  lieu  of  their 
political  privileges.  We  are  informed,  that  our  Councillors  ai-e  endued  with  great 
wisdom  and  efficiency.  It  may  be  so.  But  I  remain  to  learn  that  they  are  the  supe- 
riors, or  the  peers  of  the  Attorney  General  and  Auditor  of  Pubhc  Accounts.  At 
any  rate,  we  certainly  can  provide  an  inexpensive  and  dignified  advisory  Council.  It 
is  objected,  that  we  are  about  to  confide  the  interesting  prerogative  of  mercy  to  a  sin- 
gle man.  Why  so.=  May  we  not  provide,  that  advice  shall T)e  taken  under  our  plan 
as  well  as  under  that  the  abohtion  of  which  we  seek : 

I  have  trespassed  too  long  on  the  patience  of  the  Committee,  in  making  these  de- 
sultory remarks.  And  I  close  by  askino",  if  their  spirit  be  not  approved  by  the  best 
theories  of  Government,  supported  by  fhe  highest  authorities  in  America,  and  vindi- 
cated by  the  history  of  the  Commonwealth  itself.' 

.  Mr.  Leigh  followed  Mr.  Henderson,  and  expressed  the  desire  he  had  long  felt,  to 
know  more  about  a  fact  stated  in  Jefferson's  Notes,  and  adverted  to  by  Mr.  H.  con- 
cerning a  proposal  twice  made,  in  1776  and  1751,  by  the  Legislature  of  Virginia,  to 
appoint  a  Dictator.  He  wanted  to  know,  whether  this  was  3Ir.  J"s.  account  of  his 
own  view  of  the  effect  of  the  proposition,  or  whether  the  proposal  was  actually  made 
in  terms.  It  was  not  to  be  found  on  the  Journals  of  the  Assembly,  but  might  have 
been  offered  in  Committee  of  the  "^'Miole.  As  to  another  passage,  also  quoted  fi:om 
the  same  work,  expressing  3Ir.  J's.  views  as  to  the  practical  subserviency  of  the 
Governor  to  the  Assembly j'^he  could  not  understand  its  meaning.    The  Governor  was 

60 


474 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


merely  an  Executive  ofEcer,  and  had  no  independent  power  to  exercise,  unless  it  was 
the  prerogative  of  pardon.  He  adverted  to  the  investigation  into  Mr.  J's.  conduct, 
and  his  honorable  acquittal,  as  part  of  his  general  position,  that  710  one  abuse  had  oc- 
curred in  the  Executive  Department  from  the  foundation  of  the  present  Government 
to  the  present  day.  To  this  statement  he  challenged  contradiction.  He  himself  then 
stated  one  instance,  viz:  the  granting  a  few  barrels  of  damaged  powder  to  be  fired  on 
the  public  square.  [Here  a  well  known  voice  was  heard  to  remark,  that  the  grant 
had  made  far  more  noise  than  ever  the  powder  did,  for  that  would  not  burn.]  Mr. 
L.  denied  that  the  Governor  was  dependent  on  the  Legislature  in  any  other  sense  than 
every  other  Governor  was ;  and  asked  if  gentlemen  wished  a  Governor  with  a  pre- 
rogative like  that  of  the  Crown,  and  povt^er  to  call  out  the  militia  against  the  will  of 
the  Legislature  ?  He  remarked,  with  some  severity,  on  the  proposition  to  abolish  the 
Council,  and  concluded,  it  had  answered  precisely  the  end  of  its  appointment;  which 
was  to  reduce,  by  dividing  the  Executive  power,  and  so  render  it  incapable  of  evil. 

He  retorted  the  charge  of  aristocracy,  by  charging  the  plan  to  give  power  to  the 
Executive,  with  a  spice  of  monarchy.  He  contended  the  Executive  of  the  United 
States  was  an  elective  monarch;  and  went  into  a  long  digression  on  the  effect  of 
patronage  in  the  General  Government,  and  concluded  with  insisting,  that  if  the 
Executive  of  Virginia  was  to  have  similar  powers,  the  election  of  a  Governor  would 
immediately  grow  into  as  great  importance  in  Virginia,  as  tlie  election  of  a  President 
was  to  the  United  States. 

Mr.  Doddridge  promising  to  answer  the  gentleman's  call  for  information  to-morrow, 
moved  that  the  Committee  rise. 

It  rose  accordingly. 

The  President  laid  before  the  Convention  the  following  letter  from  Calohill  Mennis: 

Richmond,  November  26th. 
Sir— My  health  having  become  so  feeble  as  to  prevent  my  discharging  the  duties 
of  a  member  of  the  Convention,  I  resiffn  my  seat.    With  high  respect, 

CALOHILL  MENNIS. 

James  Monroe,  President  of  the  Convention. 

Mr.  Claytor  then  announced ,  that  the  Delegation  from  Mr.  Mennis's  District,  had 
agreed  upon  Samuel  Branch,  Esq.  of  Bucking-ham,  as  a  suitable  person  to  fill  the  va- 
cancy caused  by  his  resignation ;  and  moved  that  the  Sergeant  at  Arms,  cause  Mff. 
Branch  to  be  notified  of  his  election  :    Which  was  ordered  accordingly. 

The  House  then  adjourned. 


FRIDAY,  November  27,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  tlie  Rev.  Mr, 
Armstrong  of  the  Presbyterian  Church. 

The  House  resolved  itself  into  a  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour  in  the 
Chair;  the  question  being  on  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Doddridge  to  the  first  reso- 
lution of  the  Executive  Committee. 

(The  resolution  reads, 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Chief  Executive  office  of  this  Commonwealth  ought  to  be 
vested  in  a  Governor." 

Mr.  Doddridge's  amendment  is  in  these  words : 

"  To  be  elected  once  in  every  three  years,  at  the  time  of  the  general  annual  elec- 
tions, by  the  persons  qualified  to  vote  for  the  most  numerous  branch  of  the  General 

Assembly.") 

Mr.  Doddridge  took  the  floor  in  explanation  of  his  amendment: 
I  observed  yesterday  evening,  said  he,  that  the  discussion  was  becoming  too  latitu- 
dinous,  and  I  will  now  endeavour  to  confine  myself  to  the  question  raised  by  my  amend- 
ment, and  to  that  alone.  This  question  is,  not,  whether  we  shall  build  up  a  splendid 
Executive,  or  whether  any  spice  of  monarchy  shall  be  infused  into  it.  The  question 
is,  should  the  first  resolution  prevail,  whether  the  Governor  of  this  Commonwealth 
shall  be  elected  by  the  people,  or  by  the  General  Assembly  as  heretofore.  The  amend- 
ment  involves  nothing  more.  The  decision  of  this  question  will  greatly  influence 
our  votes  on  others.  If  the  people  shall  elect  their  Governor,  to  the  people  he  will  be 
responsible,  and  not  to  the  Legislature.  It  is  hereafter  to  be  determined  whether  the 
Executive  shall  be  entrusted  with  additional  powers,  and  if  so,  whether  these  shall  be 
exercised  by  him  alone,  or  with  the  advice  and  under  the  direction  of  a  controlling 
Council.  The  decisions  of  these  latter  questions  will  greatly  depend  on  the  fate  of 
the  present  amendment.    I  do  not  mean  at  this  time^  to  give  an  opinion  whether  ad- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


475 


ditional  powers  of  any  description  ought  to  be  conferred,  but  simply  to  enquire 
whether  the  election  of  our  Governors  ought  not  to  be  given  to  the  people.  My  re- 
marks, will,  of  course,  lie  within  a  narrow  compass.  In  my  remarks  of  yesterday, 
I  referred  to  the  opinion  of  Mr.  Jefferson  on  the  very  question  propounded  by  the 
amendment  under  consideration.  This  opinion  is  contained  in  the  Notes  on  Vir- 
ginia. The  words  of  the  author  were  yesterday  quoted  from  memory  only.  Since 
then  the  book  has  been  furnished  me  by  a  friend  and  I  will  use  it  for  greater  accuracy. 
I  am  the  more  induced  to  do  this,  as  the  authority  of  that  gentleman,  contained  in  a 
private  letter,  has  been  used  against  me  in  this  body  by  one  of  his  friends. 

1  acknowledge,  that  I  did  not  generally  approve  the  conduct  of  Mr.  Jefferson  as  a 
practical  politician.  Many  of  his  opinions,  formed  at  a  time  when  he  had  attained  to 
a  maturity  of  age  and  judgment,  ripened  by  much  experience — when  the  Consti- 
tution of  the  United  States  with  its  honours  and  emoluments  was  not  thought  of — 
when  these  States  were  bound  together  by  the  feeble  cords  of  the  Confederation 
alone — I  have  approved  of  since  my  youth.  Such  are  his  opinions  on  the  great 
principles  of  our  present  Constitution,  and  particularly  the  organization  of  the  Exe- 
cutive and  Judicial  Departments.  After  urging  as  an  objection  to  the  latter,  the 
omission  to  provide  that  their  salaries  shall  not  be  reduced  during  their  continuance 
in  office,  and  to  the  former,  the  entire  dependence  of  the  Executive  on  the  Legisla- 
ture, and  the  uselessness  of  the  Council,  Mr.  Jefferson  proceeds  thus  :  (See  Notes 
on  Virginia,  pp.  126,  7.)  All  the  powers  of  Government  result  to  the  Legislative 
body.  The  concentration  of  these  in  the  same  hands  is  pi-ecisely  the  definition  of  des- 
potic Government.  It  will  be  no  alleviation,  that  these  powers  will  be  exercised  by 
a  plurality  of  persons,  and  not  by  a  single  one.  One  hundred  and  seventy-three  des- 
pots would  surely  be  as  oppressive  as  one.  Let  those  who  doubt  it,  turn  their  eyes  on 
the  Republic  of  Venice.  As  little  will  it  avail  us  that  they  are  chosen  by  ourselves. 
An  elective  despotism  was  not  the  Government  we  fought  for ;  but  one  wloich  should 
not  only  be  founded  on  free  principles,  but  in  which  the  pov/er  of  Government  should 
be  so  divided  and  balanced,  among  several  bodies  of  magistracy,  as  that  no  one  could 
transcend  the  legal  limits  without  being  effectually  checked  and  restrained  by  the 
others.  For  these  reasons  that  Convention  which  passed  the  ordinance  of  Govern- 
ment, laid  its  foundation  on  this  basis;  that  the  Legislative,  Executive,  and  Judiciary 
Departments  should  be  separate  and  distinct,  so  that  no  person  should  exercise  the 
powers  of  more  than  one  of  them  at  the  same  time.  But  no  barrier  was  placed  be- 
tween these  separate  powers.  The  Judiciary  and  Executive  members  were  left  de- 
pendent on  the  Legislative  for  their  subsistence  in  office,  and  some  of  them  for  their 
continuance  in  it." 

Thus  we  see,  that  shortly  afler  the  adoption  of  the  present  Constitution,  it  was  ob- 
jected that  the  Executive,  instead  of  being  elected  by  the  people  and  responsible  to 
them,  was  appointed  by  the  General  Assembl}^  and  only  responsible  to  them.  The 
theory  maintained  in  the  Notes  on  Virginia  is  our  theory.  I  will  now  show,  that  afler 
Mr.  Jefferson's  retirement  from  the  Presidency  of  the  United  States,  he  maintained  the 
Bame  opinions,  and  expressed  them  with  such  force  as  to  assure  us,  that  his  intellect 
not  only  remained  unimpaired,  but  that  li;ls  convictions  were  strengthened  by  a  longer 
experience  of  the  defects  in  our  present  system,  which  he  had  so  early  pointed  out. 

In  a  letter  to  his  friend,  dated  July  12,  1816,  Mr.  Jefferson  sa}- s :  "The  question 
you  propose  on  equal  representation,  has  become  a  party  one,  in  which  I  wish  to  take 
no  public  share.  Yet  if  it  be  asked  for  your  own  satisfaction  onl}^,  and  not  to  be  quoted 
before  the  public,  I  have  no  motive  to  withhold  it,  and  the  less  from  you,  as  it  coin- 
cides with  your  own.  At  the  birth  of  our  Republic  I  committed  that  opinion  to  the 
world,  in  the  draught  of  a  Constitution  annexed  to  the  Notes  on  Virginia,  in  which 
a  provision  was  made  for  a  representation  permanently  equal.  The  infancy  of  the 
subject  at  that  moment,  and  our  inexperience  of  self-government,  occasioned  gross 
departures  in  that  draught  from  genuine  republican  canons.  In  truth,  the  abuses 
of  monarchy  had  so  much  filled  all  the  space  of  political  contemplation,  that  we 
imagined  every  thing  republican  that  was  not  monarchy.  We  had  not  yet  pene- 
trated into  the  mother  principle,  that  '  Governments  are  republican  only  as  they  em- 
body the  will  of  their  people  and  execute  it.'  Hence  our  first  Constitutions  had, 
really  no  principle  in  them.  But  experience  and  reflection  have  more  and  more  con- 
firmed me  in  the  particular  importance  of  the  representation  then  proposed.  On  that 
point  then,  I  ani  entirely  in  sentiment  with  your  letters,  &c. 

"  But  inequality  of  representation  in  both  Houses  of  our  Legislature  is  not  the  only 
republican  heresy  in  this  first  essay  of  our  revolutionary  patriots,  at  forming  a  Consti- 
tution. For,  let  it  be  agreed  that  Government  is  repubhcan  in  proportion  as  every 
member  composing  it  has  his  equal  voice  in  the  direction  of  its  concerns  (not  indeed 
in  person,  which  would  be  impracticable  beyond  the  limits  of  a  city  or  small  township, 
but,)  by  representatives  chosen  by  liimself  and  responsible  to  him  at  short  periods ; 
and  let  us  bring  to  the  test  of  this  canon  every  branch  of  our  Constitution. 


476 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION^, 


"  In  the  Legislature,  the  House  of  Bepresentatives  is  chosen  by  less  than  half  the 
people,  and  not  at  all  in  proportion  to  those  who  do  choose.  The  Senate  are  still 
more  disproportionate,  and  for  long  terms  of  responsibility.  In  the  Executive,  the 
Governor  is  entirely  independent  of  the  choice  of  the  people  and  of  their  control ;  his  Coun- 
cil equally  so,  and  at  best  but  a  fifth  wheel  to  a  icaggon." 

Again,  But  it  will  be  said,  that  it  is  easier  to  find  faults  than  to  amend.  I  do 
not  think  their  amendment  so  difficult  as  is  pretended.  Only  lay  down  true  princi- 
ples and  adhere  to  them  inflexibly.  Do  not  be  frightened  into  their  surrender  by  the 
alarms  of  the  timid,  or  the  croakings  of  wealth  against  the  ascendancy  of  the  people. 
If  experience  be  called  for,  appeal  to  that  of  our  fifteen  or  twenty  Governments  for 
forty  years,  and  shew  me  where  the  people  have  done  half  the  mischief  in  these  forty 
years,  that  a  single  despot  would  have  done  in  a  single  year,  or  half  the  riots  and  re- 
bellions, the  crimes  and  the  punishments,  which  have  taken  place  in  any  single  nation 
under  Kingly  Government  during  the  same  period.  The  true  foundation  of  repub- 
lican Government  is,  the  equal  rights  of  every  citizen  in  his  person  and  property,  and 
in  their  management.  Try  by  this,  as  a  tally,  every  provision  in  our  Constitution^ 
and  see  if  it  hangs  directly  on  the  will  of  the  people.  Reduce  your  Legislature  to  a 
convenient  number,  for  full,  but  orderly  discussion.  Let  every  man  who  fights  or  pays  j 
exercise  his  just  and  equal  right  in  their  election.  Let  the  Executive  be  chosen  in  the 
same  way,  and  for  the  same  term,  by  those  whose  agent  he  is  to  be,  and  have  no 
screen  of  a  Council,  behind  which  to  skulk  from  responsibility." 

Mr.  Chairman :  I  will  make  a  further  quotation  from  the  same  author,  to  shew  the 
advantage  of  a  single  Executive  head,  uncontrolled  by  any  species  of  Council.  The 
words  are  these  :  "  Nomination  to  office  is  an  Executive  function.  To  give  it  to  th® 
Legislature  as  we  do,  is  a  violation  of  the  principle  of  the  separation  of  powers.  It 
swerves  the  members  from  correctness,  by  temptations  to  intrigue  for  office  them- 
selves, and  to  a  corrupt  barter  of  votes ;  and  destroys  responsibility,  by  dividing  it 
among  a  multitude.  By  leaving  nomination  in  its  proper  place,  among  Executive 
functions,  the  principle  of  the  distribution  of  powers  is  preserved,  and  responsibility 
weighs  with  its  heaviest  force,  on  a  single  head." 

They  who  have  sought  the  present  Convention,  generally  agree  in  the  following 
principles,  as  comprehending  the  amendments  desired ;  first,  an  equal  apportionment 
of  Representation  among  white  population  :  second,  an  extension  of  the  Right  of  Suf- 
frage to  all  who  pay  taxes  :  third,  a  total  abolition  of  the  Executive  Council :  fourth^ 
a  single  Executive  Head,  or  Governor,  to  be  elected  by  the  people  and  responsible 
to  them :  fifth,  future  apportionments  to  keep  representation  equal  among  the  people  ; 
sixth,  a  provision  for  future  amendments.  Our  theory  requires  that  every  man  to 
whom  Government  looks  for  support  is  a  member  of  the  community,  and  entitled  t© 
an  equal  share  of  power,  and  that  to  separate  the  Executive  from  the  Legislative  De- 
partment, it  is  necessary  that  the  Governor  should  be  immediately  responsible  to  the 
people  as  the  members  of  the  Legislature  are,  and  as  completely  independent  of  them 
as  they  are  of  him;  and  to  secure  Executive  responsibility  to  the  people,  we  are  dis- 
posed to  give  him  "  no  screen  of  a  Cotmcd,  behind  which  to  skulk  from  that  responsibi" 
lity."  Every  principle  for  which  we  contend,  is  supported  by  the  dehberate  opinions 
of  Mr.  Jefferson,  who  has  been  quoted  against  us  to  disprove  an  historical  fact.  He 
is  even  an  authority  for  us  as  to  that  fact.  We  have  asserted  that  our  present  Con- 
stitution was  got  up  in  haste,  and  not  intended  by  those  who  made  it  as  a  durable  in- 
strument. We  are  so  far  from  being  contradicted  by  Mr.  Jefferson  in  this,  that  he 
goes  beyond  us,  and  says  that  the  Convention  of  1776,  were  not  even  elected  with  a 
view  to  independence  and  a  final  separation  from  Great  Britain. 

His  opinions  are  thus  expressed  in  the  Notes,  page  128  :  Speaking  of  the  Conven- 
tions of  1775,  and  1776,  he  says,  "These  were  first  chosen,  anew,  for  every  particular 
session.  But  in  March,  1775,  they  recommended  to  the  people  to  choose  a  Conven- 
tion, which  should  continue  in  office  a  year.  This  was  done  accordingly  in  April, 
1775;  and  in  July  following,  that  Convention  passed  an  ordinance  for  the  election  of 
Delegates  in  the  month  of  April  annually.  It  is  well  knov^^n  that  in  July,  1775,  a  se- 
paration from  Great  Britain,  and  establishment  of  republican  Government,  had  never 
yet  entered  into  any  person's  mind.  A  Convention,  therefore,  chosen  under  that  or- 
dinance, cannot  be  said  to  have  been  chosen  for  purposes  tchich  certainly  did  not  exist 
in  the  minds  of  those  loho  passed  it.  Under  this  ordinance,  at  the  annual  election  in 
April,  1776,  a  Convention  for  the  year  was  chosen.  Independence,  and  the  establish- 
w.ent  of  a  neioform  of  Governmeiit  were  not  even  yet  the  objects  of  the  people  at  large.'* 
In  Mr.  Jefferson's  views  of  the  historical  fact  we  are  more  than  supported  by  his  as- 
sertion, that  they  who  made  our  Constitution  were  not  elected  for  such  a  purpose.  It 
is  not  to  be  wondered  at,  therefore,  that  in  page  124  of  the  Notes,  he  should  speak 
thus  of  the  Constitution  made  by  them,  viz:  "  The  Constitution  was  formed  when 
we  were  new  and  inexperienced  in  the  science  of  Government.  It  was  the  first,  too, 
which  was  formed  in  the  whole  United  States.  No  wonder,  then,  that  time  and  trial 
have  discovered  very  capital  defects  in  it." 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


477 


So  much,  then,  for  the  authority  of  Mr.  Jefferson,  who  has  been  dragged  into  this 
debate  by  his  friends,  to  serve  purposes  directly  contrary  to  his  own  principles,  which 
are  proved  to  be  in  strict  accordance  with  ours  throughout. 

I  have  already  said,  that  the  Governor  is  not  a  responsible  officer,  even  to  the 
General  Assembly,  who  appoint  him.  This  position  I  now  repeat,  for  the  purpose  of 
meeting  more  directly  the  arguments  of  gentlemen  opposed  to  me.  In  sustaining 
this  position,  I  beg  leave  to  notice  the  actual  organization  of  the  Executive  Council. 
This  body  is  composed  of  eight  members  appointed  by  joint  ballot  of  the  Senate  and 
House  of  Delegates.  The  appointing  power  can  only  remove  two  of  them  at  the  ex- 
piration of  every  three  years.  Each  third  year  has  on  this  account  acquired  the  title 
of  scratch  year.  Should  every  member  of  this  body  become  at  once  obnoxious  to  the 
General  Assembly ;  should  all  become  rotten  at  the  same  time  in  this  little  State  of 
Denmark,  what  can  the  Assembly  do.''  At  the  end  of  three  years  they  can  remove 
two,  and  three  years  afterwards  two  more,  and  so  on.  Thus  an  operation  of  twelve 
years  is  required  to  displace  eight  Councillors,  although  every  one  of  them  has  lost 
public  confidence.  In  the  mean  time,  those  appointed  to  succeed  the  members  re- 
moved may  have  become  just  as  obnoxious  as  they.  Practically,  therefore,  there  may 
always  be  an  Executive  Council,  possessing  neither  the  confidence  of  the  Assembly  nor 
the  country.  Universal  experience  has  proved,  that  when  responsibility  is  divided 
among  many  agents,  it  ceases  to  be  responsibility.  This  1  consider  a  political  truth 
of  universal  acceptation.  If  Councillors  are  not  thus  responsible  to  the  Assembly, 
the  gentleman  from  Richmond,  (Mr.  Nicholas,)  triumphantly  says,  that  this  circum- 
stance proves  the  Executive  Department  to  be  as  independent  as  we  claim  it  should 
be.  But  the  gentleman  forgets  that  our  argument  is,  that  the  Governor  is  not  an  in- 
dependent Executive  officer,  and  therefore,  not  responsible  for  the  manner  in  which 
the  Executive  functions  are  performed.  The  Council  is,  at  least,  too  imperfectly  re- 
sponsible to  the  General  Assembly,  while  to  the  people  the  members  are  not  account- 
able at  all.  Yet  these  Councillors  are  a  shield  to  the  Governor,  behind  which  he  may 
skulk  with  the  most  perfect  security.  Not  only  is  this  evident  from  the  Constitution 
itself,  but  the  very  explanation  of  the  gentleman  from  Amelia,  (Gov.  Giles,)  makes 
it  more  plain,  if  possible.  According  to  the  Constitution,  and  the  practice  thus  ex- 
plained, the  Governor,  except  when  acting  as  Commander-in-Chief,  can  do  no  Execu- 
tive act,  without  the  advice  of  Council.  Without  that  advice  he  cannot  even  award 
a  Commission  on  recommendation  of  the  County  Court.  Is  it  not  idle  then,  to  hold 
him  accountable  for  the  omission  to  act,  when  the  Council  shall  have  omitted  or  re- 
fused to  advise  him  to  do  his  duty  ^  But  it  is  said,  that  he  is  not  bound  to  act  on  the 
advice  when  given,  and  is  therefore,  independent  of  the  Council.  This  may  be  true  ; 
yet  when  he  is  advised  to  violate  the  most  important  and  sacred  of  his  duties,  and  he 
follows  that  advice,  all  experience  has  taught  us,  that  the  advice  he  receives  is  his- 
perfect  and  sure  defence,  and  I  have  heard  that  defence  made  within  these  walls 
against  a  motion  for  an  impeachment ;  and  there  are  now  sitting  by  me  two  members  of 
this  Convention  who  have  given  their  votes  against  an  impeachment  on  that  very 
ground.  If,  therefore,  the  Governor  is  advised  to  commit  a  malfeasance  in  office,  and 
he  does  it,  he  is  not  responsible,  because  the  advice  is  his  protection;  and  if  he  and 
the  Council  concur  in  the  omission  to  discharge  an  important  duty,  he  is  not  respon- 
sible for  non-feasance,  because  he  could  not  act  without  advice.  From  this  view,  it 
is  manifest  that  the  Governor  of  this  Commonwealtn  is  a  mere  creature  of  the  Gene- 
ral Assembly ;  a  political  irresponsible  cypher,  and  the  Council  of  State  a  perfect 
nuisance. 

There  is  another  view  of  the  situation  of  the  Executive  Council  which  I  feel  it 
necessary  to  take,  and  in  doing  this  I  will  beg  to  be  understood  as  having  no  reference 
to  any  member  of  that  body,  past,  present,  or  to  come.  In  this  view  I  will  only  have 
reference  to  the  weakness  of  our  nature  ;  that  weakness,  of  which  I  acknowledge 
myself  a  large  partaker.  Whoever  feels  himself  exempt  from  frailties  has  not  studied 
himself.  Since  the  fall  of  our  first  parents  we  are  indeed  all  exposed  to  be  led  astray, 
by  the  suggestions  of  interest,  and  even  to  be  deluded  through  our  virtues  and  the 
amiabilities  of  our  natures.  The  situation  of  an  Executive  Councillor  peculiarly  ex- 
poses him  to  temptation.  When  he  takes  his  seat  at  the  board,  he  does  not  expect  to 
be  the  victim  of  the  first,  or  of  any  future  scratch,  as  it  is  called.  He  hopes  to  hold 
his  office  for  life  or  until  he  can  obtain  some  higher  preferment.  His  salary  will  not 
maintain  him  as  a  private  gentleman  in  tliis  city ;  much  less  will  it  sustain  or  enable 
him  to  provide  for  a  family.  He  must  fellow  the  law,  physic  or  some  other  laudable 
occupation,  with  the  profits  of  which  and  the  aid  of  his  small  salary  he  can  get  along. 
A  Councillor,  in  fact,  becomes  to  every  intent  and  purpose,  a  citizen  of  Richmond, 
in  which,  surrounded  by  his  friends,  associates  and  dearest  connexions,  he  intends  to 
live  and  expects  to  die.  The  Councillor  elected  from  the  country,  ceases  to  be  its 
representative,  and  being  blinded  by  the  interests  of  the  city,  becomes,  without  his 
own  knowledge,  its  advocate  at  the  Council  board.  Should  the  Governor  with  ad- 
vice of  Council  expend  the  public  money  too  profusely  on  the  Penitentiary,  Armory, 


478 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Warehouse  or  James  river,  or  other  city  interests,  this  profusion,  although  a  practical 
evil,  is  not  felt  in  the  city.  Nay,  it  is  unknown  there — those  living  within  the  circle 
and  influence  of  these  expenditures  feel  a  benefit,  without  knowing  or  dreaming  of 
any  wrong.  They  have  full  confidence  in  their  neighbours  and  friends,  the  Governor 
and  members  of  the  Council  of  State.  It  is  not  their  business,  nor  their  immediate 
interest  to  suspect  or  enquire  after  abuses,  and  believing  that  none  exist,  they  are 
ready  to  join  in  the  declaration,  so  often  repeated  here,  that  "  all  has  gone  on 
smoothly — all  has  worked  well !"  &c.  If  such  be  the  tendency  of  things — if  the 
residence  of  Councillors  in  the  city,  and  of  the  habits  formed  there,  withdraws  their 
allegiance  from  the  country  and  attaches  them  to  city  interests,  it  is  not  to  be  ex- 
pected that  where  there  is  any  competition  between  these  and  country  interests,  the 
latter  will  be  fairly  represented.  Considering  the  large  sums  expended  here  by  Gov- 
ernment, and  the  incessant  opportunities  afforded  for  gain  by  improper  disbursements, 
it  cannot  be  doubted  that  by  one  means  or  another  many  have  been  drawn  into  temp- 
tation. The  means  of  temptation  are  of  no  importance.  The  abuse  is  the  evil,  and 
it  is  our  desire  to  prevent  it. 

[I  wish  to  know,  Mr.  Chairman,  whether,  following  the  example  of  others,  I  am  at 
liberty  to  refer  to  the  remarks  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  in  the  Committee. 

Here  the  Chair  stated,  that  it  could  only  be  tolerated  now,  because  such  violations 
of  Parliamentary  practice  had  been  permitted  before. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  that  he  was  willing  that  any  thing  he  had  said  any  where  should 
be  the  subject  of  remark. 

The  Chair,  in  its  decision,  disclaimed  any  reference  to  any  individual.] 

Mr.  Doddridge  resumed :  I  only  desired  to  make  a  reference  to  certain  remarks  on 
our  general  tendency  to  corruption  with  our  growth  in  years.  The  gentleman  stated, 
that  from  his  early  manhood  to  the  present  day,  he  had  marked  its  growth,  and  had 
especially  traced  its  effects  in  the  increasing  love  of  office,  and  in  the  character  of  the 
means  to  which  men  resort  to  obtain  it.  There  is  much  truth  in  the  observation.  I 
am  not  disposed  to  look  altogether  on  the  dark  side  of  things.  There  is  a  German  or 
Dutch  writer  of  aphorisms,  (I  do  not  remember  which,)  who  says,  that  a  man  who  has 
known  a  great  many  villains  is  an  old  man,  and  that  he  who  has  not  known  them  is 
still  young,  though  in  years  he  may  be  as  old  as  Methusaleh.  Our  growing  old  in 
the  knowledge  of  man,  exposes  more,  his  weakness  to  our  view.  Along  the  toilsome 
path  of  life  we  make  so  many  discoveries  of  error  and  abuse,  that  we  too  easily  g'ive 
ourselves  up  to  the  distressing  belief  that  all  is  growing  in  corruption  around  us — a 
belief,  which  may  serve  to  increase  our  distrust,  but  should  not  be  allowed  to  lessen 
our  enjoyments  or  diminish  our  confidence  in  our  friends  and  countrymen  generally. 
Whether  men  of  the  present  age  are  more  corrupt  than  those  of  ages  gone  by,  or 
not,  is  a  question  about  which  men  may  form  different  opinions.  That  human  nature 
is  the  same  every  where  and  in  all  times,  is  a  practical  truth.  Human  nature  both 
formerly  and  now,  has  been  such  that  to  insure  order,  discipline  and  integrity  in  the 
administration,  of  public  affairs,  real,  substantial,  and  not  formal,  responsibility,  in  pub- 
lic functionaries,  is  indispensable. 

While  discussing  this  subject,  I  understood  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  as  say- 
ing that  he  was  acting  for  the  Commonwealth.  I  have  turned  myself  round  to  reflect 
what  that  Commonwealth  can  be,  for  which  the  gentleman  had  taken  a  stand  so  dis- 
tinct from  others.  Who  is  this  Commonwealth  ?  Against  whose  assaults  is  it  to  be 
defended.?  According  to  some,  it  consists  of  certain  freeholders  alone;  according  to 
others,  of  all  tax-paying  citizens;  while  others  again,  compose  it  of  the  whole  white 
population.  This  latter  is  the  Commonwealth  I  am  supporting.  What  then  is  that 
which  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  defends  ?  Is  it  the  sixteen  thousand  freeholders 
who  voted  against  a  Convention  ? 

[Mr.  Leigh  expressed  some  surprise  at  the  manner  in  which  the  gentleman  from 
Brooke  was  treating  a  somewhat  idle  remark  which  fell  from  him.  He  had  considered 
the  member  from  Frederick  as  preferring  a  bill  of  indictment  against  the  Legislature, 
and  he  had  set  himself  up  for  the  defence,  thus  considering  himself  for  the  Common- 
wealth, in  as  much  as  he  stood  to  defend  the  Commonwealth  against  charges  of  abuse 
of  power  by  the  Legislature.] 

Mr.  Doddridge  :  It  is  unnecessary  for  me  to  express  the  respect  I  feel  for  the  public 
and  private  virtues  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield ;  that  I  believe  is  known  to 
him,  and  he  may  rest  assured  that  I  would  not  willingly  misunderstand  him.  In  his 
remarks  yesterday,  that  gentleman  had  enquired  what  act  of  abuse  by  the  Executive 
could  be  pointed  out  and  sustained,  and  I  understood  him  to  say  he  would  yield  the 
present  question  if  one  could  be  sustained,  and  moreover  be  thankful  to  any  gentle- 
man who  would  thus  add  to  the  knowledge  he  at  present  possessed  of  the  manner  of 
discharging  Executive  functions, 

[Mr.  Leigh  said,  he  spoke  of  usurjyations  of  power.  He  was  not  about  to  defend  the 
Executive  against  errors  of  judgment.] 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


479 


Mr.  Doddridge  :  I  understood  the  gentleman  to  say,  an  aluse  of  poicer,  and  I  had 
then  in  my  recollection  a  case,  the  production  of  -which  would  entitle  me  to  tlae  gen- 
tleman's thanks.  I  will  request  the  Secretary  to  read  from  the  Journal  of  the  House 
of  Delegates  in  the  session  of  1S08-9,  the  report  of  the  Armory  Committee  from  page 
108  to  114,  inclusive.    (That  report  being  read,  Mr.  D.  resumed.) 

Mr.  Chairman, — Before  that  year,  strong  grounds  existed  for  suspecting  abuses,  al- 
though the  Executive  reports  of  each  successive  year  were  of  the  most  flattering 
character.  It  was  supposed  by  some,  that  many  of  the  arms  were  deficient  in 
quahty,  and  by  others  that  their  cost  was  greatly  beyond  that  at  wliich  good  arms  of 
the  same  description  could  be  purchased.  These  d'oubts  increased  every  year;  and 
every  year,  the  Governor's  message  with  the  Armory  report  was  calculated  to  dispel 
them.  I  refer  to  this  report  as  furnishing  record  evidence  of  abuses  which  occupied 
a  period  of  eiffht  years  of  imexampled  expenditure.  I  do  not  refer  to  it  as  censuring 
the  Governor's  under  whose  administrations  those  abuses  happened ;  nor  any  one 
else.  My  sole  purpose  is  to  shew,  that  while  thousands  and  hundreds  of  thousands 
were  in  a  course  of  expenditure  on  tlie  Armory  and  its  fixtures,  and  in  the  manufactory 
of  arms,  there  was  no  system  of  care,  accountability  or  supervisorship  observed  by 
the  Executive  Council.  The  Governors,  (for,  these  proceedings  occupied  the  whole 
administrations  of  several  Executives.)  were  as  unqualifiedly  honest  as  any  of  their 
predecessors  or  successors.  The  fault  was  that  of  the  Council,  without  whose  ad- 
vice the  Governors  could  not  act — Nay,  could  not  act  in  one  single  instance  otherwise 
than  in  conformity  with  that  advice. 

The  officers  of  the  Armory  were  of  Executive  appointment.  The  Executive  was 
invested  with  full  power  to  make  all  contracts,  supervise  their  performance,  and 
certify  their  execution  with  the  sums  due,  to  the  Auditor.  For  payment  of  claims, 
the  Auditor  had  no  voucher  except  the  Governor's  warrant,  drawn  in  pursuance  of 
the  advice  of  Council.  In  fine,  the  Executive  power  over  these  extraordinary  ex- 
penditures was  ample,  and  if  our  constitutional  theory  had  been  right,  the  Executive 
responsibihty  would  have  been  conunensurate  with  their  power ;  instead  of  which, 
none  was  found  to  exist,  except  in  the  humble  power  of  removing  two  members  from 
the  Council  every  three  years. 

From  the  report  of  the  Committee  it  appears,  that  the  Executive  contracted  with 
the  Superintendent  for  finishing  the  buildings  and  fixtures  witliin  a  limited  time,  and 
to  pay  the  contractor  for  this  labour  in  certain  instalments  as  the  work  progressed. 
This  contract  was  in  writing,  but  being  filed  with  the  Council,  it  was  in  their  power, 
and  they  permitted  the  contractor,  who  was  Superintendent,  to  vary  this  contract 
from  time  to  time  to  suit  his  own  convenience,  or  as  changes  were  suggested  by  his 
judgment;  these  changes  resulted  in  immense  additions  to  the  contract  under  the  head 
of  extra  work."  These  alterations  were  never  reduced  to  writing,  because  of  the 
unlimited  confidence  reposed  in  the  Superintendent. 

Thus,  public  moneys  were  paid  away  in  immense  sums  on  contracts  between  the 
Executive  Council  and  the  contractor,  of  which  contracts  neither  the  Auditor,  Gene- 
ral Assembly,  nor  people,  had  any  evidence;  nor  was  tliere  any  record,  book,  voucher, 
or  paper  of  any  description  kept,  at  the  Armory,  in  the  Council  chamber  or  Auditor's 
office,  by  which  the  accounting  committees  of  the  Senate  and  House  of  Delegates 
could  detect  an  excess  in  payment,  if  any  existed.  The  Superintendent,  in  this  "  ex- 
tra work,"  employed  the  labour  of  his  own  slaves,  and  certified  the  number  of  days 
and  the  amount  of  pay ;  and  this  certificate  was  the  only  evidence  on  which  the  ad- 
vice of  Council  was  founded.  An  ilhterate  man  was  examined  before  that  committee, 
whose  investigation  was  the  most  laborious  I  ever  witnessed.  This  man  testified 
that  he  kept  the  number  of  days'  work  on  small  slips  of  paper  which  he  returned  to 
the  Superintendent,  who  made  up  (what  he  supposed  to  be)  the  results  on  sheets  of 
paper,  which  he  certified  or  deposed  to.  These  sheets  constituted  the  only  evidence 
on  v.'hich  the  Council  advised  payment  of  sometliing  like  fourteen  thousand  days' 
work.  When  tlie  committee  of  investigation  called  for  evidences  of  this  labour, 
neither  the  sheets  containing  the  general  results,  nor  the  shps  of  paper,  nor  book, 
nor  voucher  of  any  kind  could  be  found;  nor  does  tlaere  exist  to  this  hour  one  letter, 
or  vestige  of  a  letter,  whereby  this  account  can  be  either  refuted  or  supported.  The 
Journal  of  that  session  contains  (I  think  in  page  124  or  12.5.)  a  proposition  to  pass  a 
resolution  of  censure  with  a  view  to  an  impeachment.  That  resolution  was  neither 
adopted  nor  rejected.  It  was  postponed ;  and  it  was  on  that  occasion  I  heard  the  ad- 
vice of  Council  urged  as  a  defence  of  the  Governors  as  to  all  these  transactions ;  and 
it  was  this  defence',  that  induced  at  least  two  members  of  this  Convention  to  vote  for 
the  postponement  of  that  resolution. 

A  bill  providing  against  future  abuses  of  this  kind  grew  out  of  the  Armory  report, 
and  passed  both  Houses,  which  is  now  the  law.  Tliis  law  may  be  found  in  the  first 
volume  of  the  Revised  Code  of  1819,  page  130. 

That  law  divested  the  Executive  of  the  power  of  appointing  Annory  officers.  It 
provided  that  vifiihtrc  no  money  should  be  drawn  from  the  Treasury,  except  in  pur- 


480 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION* 


suance  of  loritten  contracts,  and  that  all  contracts  whereby  money  should  be  so  drawn, 
should  be  filed  with  the  Auditor  of  Public  Accounts,  instead  of  the  Executive  Coun- 
cil. To  the  best  of  my  recollection  the  bill  as  it  passed  the  lower  House  had  a  clause 
to  this  effect,  "  that  the  officers  of  the  Armory  be  removed."  This  clause  contained  a 
direct  censure,  which  was  unnecessary,  and  1  believe  it  was  stricken  out  on  my  mo- 
tion. Here,  then,  is  record  evidence  of  the  irresponsibility  of  the  Governor  to  the 
General  Assembly,  and  of  the  entire  independence  of  the  Executive  Council,  of  all 
the  world.  They  are  convicted  of  negligence,  carelessness  and  gross  improvidence 
in  the  money  transactions  of  Government  committed  to  their  controul,  through  a  long 
series  of  years.  For  this,  what  did  the  Assembly  do  ?  Why,  took  from  them  the  power 
of  appointment — they  disabled  them  from  making  or  varying  a  contract  otherwise 
than  by  writing,  and  they  deprived  them  of  the  custody  of  their  own  contracts  ichen  made. 
They  imposed  many  other  restraints,  as  may  be  seen  by  the  law  referred  to.  Here  the 
confidence  of  the  General  Assembly  was  completely  withdrawn,  yet  they  had  to  con- 
tent themselves  with  the  slow  operation  of  the  scratch.  Such  is  the  Executive  responsi- 
bility of  which  the  gentleman,  who  is  now  at  its  head,  has  boasted  so  much,  and 
of  which,  he  and  others  have  so  often  declared,  that,  "  it  works  so  well  that  all  has 
gone  on  smoothly." 

At  the  time  of  the  investigation  to  which  I  have  alluded,  a  new  Governor  was  ap- 
pointed, of  whom  I  would  more  particularly  speak,  but  that  his  son  is  present,  a  mem- 
ber of  this  body.  The  Armory  report  shewed  that  the  Superintendent  claimed  yet, 
a  small  balance,  the  payment  of  which  had  been  suspended  during  the  investigation. 
It  was  at  the  time,  a  current  report  in  this  city,  that  the  Council,  indignant  at  what 
they  heard  within  these  walls,  retired  to  their  chamber  and  advised  the  payment  of 
that  balance,  and  that  the  new  Governor  refused  to  act  on  that  advice.  This  part  I 
cannot  assert  to  be  true,  as  I  did  not  enquire  into  it.  But  this  I  can  assert,  that  the 
citizens  of  Richmond  appeared  to  be  as  much  excited  against  the  investigation  of  the 
Armory  Committee  then,  as  they  are  against  some  of  the  efforts  made  in  this  Con- 
vention now.  I  will  mention  another  fact.  Governor  Tyler,  after  having  heard  what 
passed  in  the  Hall  of  Delegates,  appointed  a  committee  of  men,  commonly  called 
here,  back- woods-men,  to  examine  the  rifles.  They  tried  them,  and  found  them  as 
they  said,  more  dangerous  to  those  who  would  use  them  than  those  against  whom 
they  were  employed.  Many  pistols  were  reported  to  be  unfit  for  use,  on  account  of 
largeness  of  calibre,  being  made  out  of  the  barrels  of  muskets,  bursted  in  the  proof. 

These  remarks,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  thought  it  my  reasonable  duty  to  make ;  they  are 
crude  1  know.  It  has  been  but  a  short  time  since  the  report  of  the  Executive  Com- 
mittee was  taken  up,  and  I  found  it  necessary  to  examine  the  Legislative  Journal  of 
1808,  rather  than  trust  my  frail  memory. 

Mr.  Leigh  rose  in  reply,  and  went  into  a  history  of  the  causes  which  led  to  the  ap- 
pointment of  the  Committee  of  Investigation.  He  referred  to  the  determination  of 
a  party  to  put  down  the  Armory  ;  the  means  resorted  to  to  libel  the  Superintendent ; 
the  unfair  and  oppressive  course  which  was  pursued  in  denying  him  an  opportunity  of 
defence  :  he  then  went  on  to  give  a  farther  history  of  the  suit  at  law  instituted  against 
that  officer ;  the  elaborate  trial  of  the  cause  before  the  General  Court  of  the  Common- 
wealth ;  the  ample  admission  of  the  testimony  from  all  quarters,  and  the  result  in  his 
honorable  and  triumphant  acquittal.  His  ixanocence  was  farther  confirmed  by  his 
poverty.  This  one  fact,  he  considered  as  an  answer  to  Mr.  D's.  whole  argument :  for, 
if  the  Superintendent  (Major  John  Clarke)  had  been  guilty  of  no  injury  to  the  public, 
the  Council  had  not  permitted  an  injury  to  be  done,  and  so  were  free  from  the  charge 
which  had  been  brought  against  them.  Mr.  L.  defended  Mr.  Clarke  (who  resides  in 
his  District)  with  ardent  zeal,  and  challenged  the  world  to  disprove  his  statement, 

Mr.  Doddridge  rejoined.  Major  Clarke's  acquittal  did  not  touch  his  argument,  or 
weaken  it  in  the  least.  He  had  not  charged  him  with  malfeasance,  but  the  Council 
with  the  grossest  negligence  ;  and  though  Major  Clarke's  honesty  saved  the  State  from 
injury  at  his  hands,  no  thanks  were  due  to  those  who  had  left  power  in  his  hands  by 
which  he  might  have  depredated  to  a  vast  extent  upon  the  public  money.  He  knew 
Clarke  well,  and  was  his  personal  friend. 

Mr.  Cooke,  after  adverting  to  what  had  fallen  sportively  (and  once  more  seriously) 
from  Mr.  Leigh,  as  to  defending  the  Commonwealth  in  an  indictment  to  be  brought 
by  him  against  the  past  course  of  legislation,  said,  that  if  he  had  not  before  been  con- 
vinced of  the  imprudence  of  the  pledge  extorted  from  him  to  bring  such  an  indict- 
ment, what  he  had  now  witnessed  would  be  sufficient  to  admonish  him,  that  to  pre- 
fer any  further  charges  would  be  imprudent  indeed.  He,  therefore  gave  notice,  that 
the  day  for  the  trying  of  that  indictment  would  never  come.  He  was  far  from  blam- 
ing his  friend  from  Brooke  for  what  he  had  done,  and  as  far  from  blaming  his  friend 
from  Chesterfield,  for  his  eloquent  defence  of  an  injured  man ;  but  he  plainly  saw, 
that  if  such  charges,  with  their  specifications,  were  to  be  tried  here,  the  Convention 
would  sit,  not  only  till  Christmas,  but  till  Christmas  of  next  year. 

(Here  Mr.  Randolph's  voice  was  heard  to  say,  "  Enter  then  a  nolle  prosequi.'') 


DEBATES   OF  THE   CONVEXTION.  \ 


481 


Mk.  Moxroe  rose  and  addressed  the  Committee  in  nearly  the  following  words  : 

I  wish  to  submit  a  few  remarks  in  explanation  of  the  ground  on  which  I  shall  give 
my  own  vote,  rather  than  with  the  expectation  of  producing  any  effect  in  the  decision 
on  this  subject.  It  has  been  argued  with  great  ability  on  both  sides,  and  in  a  manner 
very  gratifying  to  me  as  a  citizen  of  this  State  and  of  the  Union.  The  real  question 
before  the  Committee  is,  whether  the  Governor  shall  be  elected  by  the  General  As- 
sembly in  the  manner  now  prescribed  by  the  Constitution,  or  by  the  people  at  large. 
This  is  the  question  before  you.  I  will  concisely  present  my  view  of  it,  stating  the 
objections  which  apply  to  each  mode,  and  on  which  side  in  my  judgment  they  pre- 
ponderate. I  consider  the  question  as  very  important:  inferior  it  is  true  to  some 
which  have  come  before  us ;  but,  involving  in  a  high  degree  the  fate  of  the  Republic. 
I  do  believe  it  a  question,  involving  in  a  high  degree,  the  success  of  our  system  of 
Government.  Tlie  objection  to  the  election  of  the  Executive  by  the  Gener.-\I  Assem- 
bly, is  founded  on  the  idea,  that  you  thereby  concentrate  all  the  powers  of  Govern- 
ment in  that  body,  uniting  in  one  branch,  not  only  the  Legislative  power,  but  a  con- 
trol over  the  other  two  branches,  and  thus  bringing  all  the  three  in  effect  into  one. 
This  is  the  objection.  Let  us  examine  it.  I  admit  most  fully,  that  the  unqualified 
concurrence  of  the  three  great  powers  of  Government  in  one  body,  especially  if  in 
one  person,  gives  it  the  character  of  a  despotism.  If  these  powers  meet  in  a  mo- 
narch who  is  hereditary,  and  responsible  to  nobod}-,  that  monarch  is  a  despot,  and  the 
people  are  his  slaves.    But  there  is  another  aspect  of  the  subject. 

If  these  three  powers  are  united  in  a  General  i\ssembly  of  the  people,  as  in  tlie 
ancient  Republics,  though  tlie  Government  is  not  despotic,  yet  the  consequences  are 
equally  fatal  and  even  worse,  than  in  the  other  case.  All  things  are  soon  thrown  into 
confusion;  there  is  no  security  for  property  or  any  thing  else.  Life  itself  is  not  safe. 
Some  popular  leader  gets  the  control,  and  soon  makes  himself  a  despot.  In  either 
of  these  instances,  the  concurrence  of  the  three  powers  produces  a  despotism.  But 
as  soon  as  you  pass  the  power  firom  the  people  to  their  Representatives,  the  matter  is 
changed.  The  people  control  all  their  movements.  The  people  have  a  complete 
check  upon  them,  if  they  are  only  true  to  themselves,  intellicrent  and  virtuous.  Con- 
sider the  operation  on  the  Legislative  body,  even  supposing  the  whole  power  to  be  in 
it.  That  power  is  liable  to  abuse,  and  has  been  abused  th  're  is  no  doubt.  But  still 
there  is  a  check,  although  the  whole  power  of  Government  be  in  one  body.  But,  if 
there  be  a  regular  Constitution,  and  the  three  branches  of  Government  be  separated, 
and  a  limit  is  prescribed  to  the  Legislative  branch,  and  its  power  clearly  defined ;  and,  if 
in  like  manner,  liaiits  are  set  to  the  Executive  Department  and  its  power  also  defined; 
and  the  same  with  respect  to  the  Judiciarv  :  the  powers  of  all  being  distinct  and  clearly 
defined;  though  the  election  of  a  Governor  (for  I  now  confine  myself  to  that)  be  by  the 
General  Assembh',  it  cannot  be  said  that  the  three  powers  are  concentrated  tncrether 
in  that  body.  There  is  a  separation  of  them.  How  can  they  encroach  on  each  other.'' 
How  can  the  Governor  interfere  with  the  power  of  the  Legislature  ?  or  the  Le^isla- 
ture  with  the  Executive  f  Common  sense  itself  is  a  sure  barrier.  The  difference  of 
their  duties,  that  of  the  one  being  to  make  the  laws,  and  that  of  the  other  to  execute 
them,  is  so  marked  and  obvious  that  they  cannot  be  mistaken.  The  duties  of  the  Ju- 
diciary are  still  more  distinct,  and  its  limits  more  clearly  and  more  easily  defined.  It 
is  the  Executive  and  Legislative  powers,  if  any,  which  are  likely  to  interfere.  If  the 
Constitution  be  well  drawn.  I  see  no  danger  on  that  score.  The  Judiciary  will  be  in- 
dependent, if  they  hold  their  offices  during  good  behaviour.  They  ought  to  be  main- 
tained so,  and  should  have  power  to  declare  an}-  law  which  is  contrary  to  the  Consti- 
tution. This  is  my  opinion.  The  dancfer  is  in  the  Legislative  branch.  I  should  be 
glad  to  see  a  check  upon  it  in  the  Executive  as  well  as  m  the  Judiciary. 

The  success  of  our  system  of  Government  depends  upon  its  organization,  on  the 
distribution  of  ^ower  between  the  different  branches,  and  on  keeping  each  branch  in- 
dependent of  the  others.  Power  I  know  may  be  abused :  that  the  Legislature  may  in- 
fluence the  Governor.  I  cannot  doubt.  A  leadingf  man  in  the  Legislature  who  can 
contribute  greatly  to  his  re-election  is  likely  to  have  some  weight  with  him  :  and  that 
he  may  turn  that  weight  to  his  own  account  in  an  improper  manner,  is  probable.  It  is 
incident  to  the  frailt}'  of  human  nature.  The  check  is  in  the  intelligence  of  the  peo- 
ple, and  in  the  circulation  by  the  press  of  the  proceedings  of  public  bodies.  The  peo- 
ple are  the  great  check  upon  all. 

Now  let  us  look  to  the  objections  which  exist  to  the  election  of  a  Governor  by  the 
people.  From  my  own  experience" and  reflection,  I  have  learned,  that  when  the  ap- 
peal is  made  to  the  people,  the  most  estimable  men  will  be  sought  out.  In  the  dis- 
charge of  my  official  duties,  I  have  traversed  my  country  from  iVorth  to  South,  and 
from  East  to' West.  1  am  acquainted  with  the  whole  of  "it.  I  know  that  the  people 
are  enlightened  themselves,  and  are  disposed  to  select  the  most  enlightened  men  as 
their  Representatives.  I  view  my  fellow-citizens  from  tlie  East  and  from  the  West, 
from  the  North  and  from  the  South,  with  the  same  confidence  and  attachment,  and 
consider  them  as  a  portion  of  the  humaji  race  more  capable  of  self-government  than 

Gl 


482 


DEBATES  OP  THE  CONVENTION. 


any  other  in  the  fv'orld.  When  the  question  is  for  giving  the  election  to  the  people, 
they  have  my  enUre  confidence  so  far  as  in  the  nature  of  things  they  are  qualified  for 
such  an  office.  But  from  their  situation,  they  can  hardly  ever  be  acquainted  with  the 
real  merits  of  the  candidates.  They  cannot  confer  together  to  any  great  extent ;  they 
can  hold  no  general  meeting  where  the  matter  may  be  discussed,  nor  can  they  get  im- 
partial information. 

They  may  hold  meetings  for  local  purposes,  but  this  is  all  that  they  can  do.  Great 
caucusses  are  vbrmed  who  niiike  the  nominations,  and  into  whose  hands  the  body  of  the 
people  fall.  It  is  by  their  agency  and  under  their  influence  that  the  Governor  is 
elected. 

He  then  looks  to  his  friends,  and  they  in  return  look  to  him,  and  thus  the  country  is 
divided  m'co  two  parties  on  the  worst  and  most  dangerous  of  principles.  Those  who 
voted  for  the  candidate  consider  themselves  as  conipromitted,  and  bound  to  support 
all  his  measures  whatever  they  may  be;  and  he  in  like  manner  feels  bound  to  support 
them.  Such  is  human  nature,  and  such  are  the  passions  of  men,  as  proved  by  their 
condact  in  all  Governments  in  all  nges,  and  on  which  I  found  these  remarks.  By  this 
meuns  the  independence  of  the  people  is  v/eakened.  While  their  elective  power  is 
confined  to  the  choice  of  Senators  and  Delegates,  and  members  of  Congress,  they  are 
fally  competent  to  the  trust.  They  can  perform  their  duty  with  perfect  success.  They 
have  a  personal  knowledge  of  the  men,  and  will  choose  those  best  qualified  for  the 
trust,  and  no  consequence  v/ill  follow  that  can  operate  to  the  injury  of  the  State  at 
large.  But  when  you  extend  this  to  the  Chief  Magistrate,  who  has  great  power  in 
the  Government,  the  result  is  different. 

As  to  the  power  the  Chief  Magistrate  ought  to  possess,  it  is  another  question. 
WhefJtier  he  ought  to  liave  the  pov/er  of  appointment  is  a  matter  that  turns  on  other 
considerations.  Be  his  election  by  whom  it  may,  my  opinion  is,  that  he  should  hold 
his  office  for  one  term  only.  Then  he  is  made  independent.  He  serves  his  one  term 
and  retires.    No  selfish  motives  can  operate  upon  him. 

If  we  look  to  history  on  this  subject,  we  see  the  demonstration,  that  the  more  you 
connect  the  people  with  the  Executive,  and  the  greater  you  make  his  power,  the 
greater  is  the  danger  to  Republican  Government.  What  overthrew  the  ancient  Re- 
publics.? Go  to  Rome,  and  what  do  you  find  there.?  Was  it  not  their  own  Consuls, 
whom  they  themselves  had  chosen,  that  overthrew  the  liberties  of  the  State Marius 
and  Sylla,  Pompey  and  CoBsar,  till  Caesar  made  himself  a  despot.?  It  was  the  people 
who  elected  him,  and  they  stuck  to  him  and  their  own  destruction.  The  Republic 
was  broken  up  into  parties :  their  contentions  were  pushed  to  extremes,  and  ruin  was 
the  consequence.  Self-government  depends  for  its  success,  on  keeping  the  people  in 
a  state  of  calmness.  The  less  you  give  them  to  do  in  exercising  their  elective  privi- 
lege, the  safer  they  will  be.  Embark  them  in  the  election  of  a  Chief  Magistrate,  and 
you  agitate  at  once  the  v/hole  State,  from  which  I  dread  unfavorable  consequences. 
The  whole  system  turns  upon  the  election  of  the  Representatives  to  the  Legislature, 
and  to  which  they  are  fully  competent. 

I  have  thought  it  proper  to  state  my  view.  I  know  that  there  are  strong  arguments 
both  for  and  against  each  plan  ;  but  my  idea  is,  that  the  more  you  confine  the  people 
within  the  limit  stated,  the  safer  will  the  Government  be.  If  they  are  confined  to 
the  election  of  their  R.epresentatives  they  will  sustain  their  dignity,  and  their  judg- 
ment will  be  enlightened  by  the  competition  of  the  candidates,  whose  mutual  rivalry 
will  expose  their  errors  to  public  view.  It  is  on  this  that  the  security  of  the  whole 
system  turns.  My  opinion  is,  that  the  Legislature  supplies  the  place  of  the  people  as 
a  Representative  body:  they  occupy  that  ground  which  the  people  themselves  would 
occupy.  If  the  Legislature  has  the  power  of  impeachment,  and  the  Senate  power  to 
try  the  persons  impeached,  they  v»^ill  watch  over  every  other  branch  of  the  Govern- 
ment and  keep  it  in  order.  It  is  my  opinion,  that  through  the  Legislature,  as  occu- 
pying the  place  of  the  people,  the  whole  movement  will  be  controlled,  and  every 
hranch  made  subservient  to  their  will.  This  is  iny  view. 
Mr.  Coalter  said : 

■Is  there  to  be  any  compromise  of  interests  and  opinions  in  this  case  ? 
What  are  the  great  evils  wiiich  led  to  this  Convention  ? 

The  inequality  of  Representation  is  the  greatest  and  is  one  aclcnoicledged  by  all. 

Serious  evils  have  been  felt,  and  which  are  supposed  to  grow  out  of  this  inequality. 

The  most  jlagrcmt ;  the  most  unjustifiahle,  (for  it  is  without  parallel  in  outrage,  as  it 
is  without  a  semblance  of  reason  or  justice  to  support  it,)  is  that  refusal  of  the  Legis- 
lature, to  extend  its  aid  to  the  courts  in  which  Judge  White  loXoij,  and  so  long,  so 
honorably,  and  so  satisfactorily  presided. 

The  next  has  arisen  out  of  the  subject  of  Internal  Improvement.  This  is  one  in 
which  there  are  great  conflicting  interests;  and,  as  may  well  be  expected  under  every 
system  in  which  justice  may  have  been,  and  hereafter  may  be,  withheld  from  par- 
ticular sections. 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


m 


1  may  possibly  take  the  liberty  to  say  something  more  at  large  on  this  subject,  at 
some  time  hereafter,  having  heretofore  taken  a  deep  interest  in,  and  turned  my  atten- 
tion a  good  deal  to,  that  subject :  suffice  it  to  say  at  present,  that  part  of  the  country 
beyond  the  Blue  Ridge,  confessedly  not  having  its  equal  share  in  Representation, 
may-  well  demand  to  have  their  due  weight  in  tlie  Legislature,  in  order  to  promote 
these  great  interests,  so  far  as  that  weight  may  enable  them. 

There  is  also  another  evil  of  great  magnitucle,  and  which  all  acknowledge  ;  and  that 
is  the  great  number  of  R,epresenta'dves,  and  the  great  expense  consequently  attend- 
ing our  Legislative  deliberations. 

These  are  evils  which  all  admit;  and  these  evils  caused  the  people  to  vote  for  this 
Convention. 

Had  the  question  been  put  to  the  people  :  ¥7111  you  have  a  Convention  to  remedy 
these  evils  ?    I  believe  there  would  not  have  been  one  dissenting  voice  in  the  State. 

Had  a  separate  and  distinct  question  though,  been  put  to  them  ;  will  you  also  have 
a  Convention  to  extend  the  Right  of  Suffrage  in  the  terms  and  to  the  extent  in  which 
this  Committee  has  extended  it,  what  response  w^ould  have  been  given  to  that  ques- 
tion.? I  appeal  to  this  body,  and  to  the  knowledge  they  have  of  this  people,  whether 
thousands,  and  tens  of  thousands,  nay  hundreds  of  thousands,  of  those  who  voted  for 
this  Convention  ;  not  in  loiocr  Virginia  only,  but  in  all  Virginia,  would  not  have  voted 
against  that  distinct  proposition  ?  In  other  words,  had  the  freehold  Suffrage,  been  the 
only  evil  complained  of,  would  we  have  been  here  deliberating  on  that  question  ? 
I  verily  believe,  that  in  that  case,  no  Convention,  would  have  prevailed  one  hundred 
to  one.  In  fact,  but  for  the  other  great  and  apparent  evils,  a  Convention/or  thisjrur- 
pose  never  would  have  been  thovght  of. 

The  Western  country  has  much  changed  v/itliln  the  last  eighteen  years  that  I  have 
been  absent  from  it,  if  in  truth  that  had  been  the  only  evil  they  complained  of,  such 
a  proposition  would  have  been  supported  b}-^  one  in  one  hundred. 

It  has  been  merely  brought  in  as  auxiiiarij,  and  in  the  tempest  of  those  passions 
which  have  been  engendered  by  real  evils. 

But  suppose  a  third  question  had  been  taken ;  shall  we  have  a  Convention  that  the 
Governor  may  he  elected  by  the  vcoyle?  I  will  not  go  farther.  For  whether  he  is  to 
have  a  patronage  tliat  will  rouse  the  people  from  that  quiet  slumber  in  which  they 
have  reposed  for  fifty  years,  and  unlicnncl  the  pack  who  will  be  seeking  for  office,  and 
who  will  make  the  welkin  ring,  has  not  yet  developed  itself— I  will  take  the  naked 
proposition  as  presented  by  the  amendment. 

What  would  the  people  have  said  ?  Vf  hy,  we  never  heard  of  this  as  an  evil.  Our 
sleep  has  been  so  profound,  that  v/e  never  even  dfcamt  of  it. 

Each  man  v/ill  say — how  can  /  elect  a  Governor  ?  I  would  be  very  willing  to  make 
my  neighbour  A.  Governor ;  but  his  vorlh.  may  not  h%  known  to  others.  How  am  / 
to  act?  He  will  be  told,  some  man  v.^ill  be  nominated  to  you;  you  will  be  called  on. 
to  send  some  representative  to  a  Caucras,  to  nominate  a  Governor — or  your  neighbours: 
will  send  some  one  to  this  Caucus.  You  are  a  good  Jackson-man,  or  you  are  a  good 
Clay-man,  and  you  must  take  care  to  vote  for  the  man  nominated  by  yotir  Caucus,  or 
your  party  will  be  overthrov/n. 

If  that  is  to  be  the  case,  he  will  say,  I  had  rather  the  Caucus  would  elect  him  them- 
selves, at  once.    "Why  call  on  me,  if  my  judgment  is  not  to  be  exercised.'' 

No,  no,  that  won't  do — that  is  too  much  like  the  present  Constitution,  which  you 
must  now  vote  to  abolish.  Our  tried  friend  Mr.  Jefferson  has  said  there  is  danger  in 
it,  and  although  we  have  not  yet  felt  it,  we  must  guard  against  danger. 

But  if  there  must  be  a  Caucus,  why  not  let  the  members  of  the  Legislature  be  that 
Caucus.''  Why,  my  dear  Sir,  that  is  worse  and  worse — that  is  still  coming  nearer  to 
the  present  Constitution — they  miglit  as  v/ell  elect  directly,  as  thus  to  do  it  indirectly. 

But  suppose  they  will  Caucus  it.?  The  members  of  Congress  do  so  as  to  the  Presi- 
dent, and  so  do  our  members  of  Assembly  ;  and  in  fact,  between  them  actually  elect 
the  President.  In  short,  they  have  done  little  else  for  the  last  eight  or  ten  years,  but 
elect  Presidents.  Do  you  mean.  Sir,  that  we  shall  be  placed  in  The  same  situation  as 
to  our  Governor  ?  That  I  am  to  be  placed  in  a  situation,  in  which,  so  far  as  I  can 
learn,  knowing  nothing  myself,  and  giving  due  faith  and  credit  to  all  that  is  said  on 
both  sides,  as  to  the  candidates,  it  can  only  be  a  choice  of  evils  !  If  this  is  what  you 
mean,  I  am  not  for  it — I  must  go  to  my  wlieat-stack  and  draw  straws  :  and  if  the  Le- 
gislature will  be  bound  to  pass  a  law  to  make  that  a  good  vote,  and  that  I  may  send 
the  result  to  the  polls,  tliere  to  be  registered  as  my  vote,  as  Mr.  Jefferson  thought  the 
present  Constitution  dangerous,  I  may  vote  for  a  change.  But  if  I  am  to  mix  in  the 
/mc  and  cry  against,  or  in  eidogising  a  man  that  I  knew^othing  about,  I  beg  to  be  ex- 
cused. 

I  would  rather  stay  at  home  and  attend  to  my  business ;  in  v.^hicli  case  the  election 
must  be  abandoned  by  me  to  those  yA\o  have  something  in  view. 

At  present,  I  ought  to  vote  for  an  Elector  of  President  of  the  United  States,  whom 
I  know,  and  in  whom  I  can  confide. 


484 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


That  was  understood  to  be  the  spirit  of  that  Constitution,  when  I  gave  my  sanction 
to  it — and  it  was  so  practised  on  for  some  time. 

I  now  elect  my  members  to  the  Legislature  of  the  State,  and  by  the  Constitution, 
they  are  my  electors  of  Governor. 

I  have  witnessed  no  evil  growing  out  of  that. 

I  have  though,  witnessed  the  deadly  sin  and  wickedness  growing  out  of  the  change 
in  practice,  which  has  deprived  me  of  tlie  power  of  electing  an  elector  of  President, 
whom  I  know.  Nay,  I  am  told,  that  the  Congressional  or  State  Caucvsscs  have  gone  so 
far,  that  no  man  shall  be  elected  by  me,  who  will  not  give  in  his  adhesion — his  promise 
to  vote  for  a  certain  man  as  President,  however  unfit,  either  from  bodily  infirmity,  or 
otherwise,  he  may  thereafter  be  discovered  to  be. 

This,  in  fact,  makes  me  not  the  elector  myself  of  the  President,  for  which  I  am 
incompetent,  as  well  by  my  natural  constitution,  as  by  the  Constitution  of  the  United 
States,  but  the  cats-paw  of  a  Congressional  and  State  Caucus,  or  some  other  party 
Caucus. 

I  go  against  the  whole  of  this  as  a  deception  on  the  people  ;  alike  contrary  to  sound 
sense  and  good  morals,  and  of  course,  contrary  to  the  true  interest  of  any  people. 

Such,  it  seems  to  me,  would  be  the  common-sense  argument  of  any  plain  man  in 
the  country,  possessing  common-sense,  and  a  small  knowledge  of  the  course  of  things 
passing  before  him. 

As  to  the  history  of  the  Executive  branch  of  our  Government,  said  to  have  been 
written  by  Mr.  Jefferson — 1  don't  recollect  when  it  was  written.  If  very  soon  after 
his  own  administration  of  that  department,  or  he  intended  to  say,  that  from  his  oicn 
experience,  the  Governor  acted,  not  under  the  influence  of  his  ovm  conscience,  hut  un- 
der that  of  the  Legislature,  it  may  be  received  as  evidence,  so  far  as  it  regarded  him- 
self; but,  surely,  not  to  implicate  Patrick  Henry — Governor  Nelson — Governor  Har- 
rison— or  any  other  Governor  of  those  early  days.  No,  Sir,  he  intended  no  such 
thing,  either  as  to  himself  or  others. 

He  merely  intended  to  state  his  views  of  the  tendency  of  the  system,  or  of  what 
it  might  thereafter  result  in. 

The  gentleman  from  Loudoun  has  given  the  history.  He  has  read  it  in  the  eyes 
of  this  nation.  A  sleep,  it  is  true  ;  but  not  that  sleep,  which  is  often  the  symptom  of 
approaching  dissolution  ;  and  to  arouse  from  which  cataplasms  are  to  be  applied ;  but 
the  sound,  calm,  refreshing  sleep  of  the  peaceful  husbandman — untroubled  by  dreams 
of  amhition,  or  fears  for  his  safety. 

I  think  a  higher  eulogium  never  was  passed  on  any  Executive  Government  than 
tliat  history,  so  well  depicted,  has  given  of  ours. 

Like  Almighty  Providence,  it  causes  punishment  to  be  inflicted  on  the  guilty  viola- 
tor of  our  laws.  They  feel  it,  and  they  alone  tremble  under  it — all  others  are  in 
mansions  of  peace,  rest,  and  quietness. 

I  wish  to  sleep  in  peace  after  this  Convention  rises,  and  therefore  I  must  vote 
against  this  amendment. 

It  is  essential  to  the  salvation  of  the  State,  according  to  my  views,  to  resist  it;  and 
I  must,  at  all  times,  and  in  all  places,  vote  against  a  Constitution  which  shall  have 
this  provision  in  it. 

Is  it  equally  important  to  its  friends  Must  they  oppose,  liere  and  elsewhere,  any 
Constitution  which  has  not  this  provision  in  it  ^  If  so,  so  far  as  I  am  concerned,  a 
compromise  is  of  no  avail.  Gentlemen  must  be  finally  willing,  however  they  may 
vote  now,  to  give  up  things  not  deemed  absolutely  essential  to  their  rights  at  present — • 
things  that  may  wait  to  a  future  day,  without  injury  to  the  State  :  Something  for  pos- 
terity to  do,  if  real  evils  shall  be  found  to  arise,  and  accord  for  the  present  those 
things  which  are  deemed  by  others  as  essential  to  the  good  of  society,  until  evils  are 
found  to  grow  out  of  them,  which  they  are  not  now  prepared^  and  cannot  agree  to 
change. 

I  am  desirous — most  icilling  to  remedy  real  evils — I  am  willing  to  go  far  in  doing 
it.  Tardy  justice  often  leads  to  some  degree  of  injustice.  The  jury  may  give  too 
heavy  damages.  Be  it  so:  it  is  the  nature  of  things — against  excessive  damages, 
though  the  Court  will  release  and  grant  a  new  trial ;  unless  there  is  a  release  that 
will  bring  them  down  to  something  like  censure ;  in  which  case,  and  for  the  sake  of 
peace,  judgment  will  be  entered. 

Let  us  be  cautious  how  we  go  before  our  judges  for  a  new  trial. 

Let  us  rather  agree  vpon  the  icay. 

Mr,  Stanard  wishing  to  have  the  sense  of  the  Committee  taken  on  the  isolated 
proposition,  whether  the  Governor  shall  be  elected  by  the  people,  moved  to  amend 
the  amendment  of  Mr.  Doddridge  by  striking  out  that  part  of  it  which  says  that  he 
shall  be  so  elected. 

The  question  being  put,  it  was  decided  in  the  negative  :  Ayes  43,  Noes  48. 
(Messrs.  Monroe  and  Marshall,  Ayes  :  Mr.  Madison,  No.) 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


485 


The  question  recurred  on  the  whole  of  Mr.  Doddridge's  amendment.,  and  tlie  votes 
stood,  Ayes  46,  Noes  46. 

(Mr.  Madison,  Aye:  Messrs.  Monroe  and  Marshall,  No.) 

The  votes  being  equally  divided,  the  Chairman  voted  in  the  negative ;  so  Mr. 
Doddridge's  amendment  was  rejected. 

Mr.  Fftzhugh  said,  that  if  the  question  was  taken  as  between  leaving  the  appoint- 
ment of  the  Governor  and  his  term  of  office  as  at  present,  and  an  election  by  the 
people,  he  should  be  for  the  latter  ;  but  he  wished  a  different  course  taken;  and  he, 
therefore,  moved  the  following  amendment : 

"  Resolved^  That  the  Executive  Office  of  tliis  Commonwealth  ought  to  be  vested 
in  a  Governor  ;"  as  follows  :  "  To  be  elected  by  the  General  Assembly  for  three  years, 
and  to  be  ineligible  for  three  years  thereafter." 

Mr.  F.  said,  his  sole  object  was  to  render  the  Governor  independent  of  the  Legis- 
lature :  to  effect  that  object,  he  must  either  be  elected  by  the  people,  or  if  by  the  Le- 
gislature, his  term  of  service  must  be  prolonged.  The  latter  mode  avoided  Caucusses 
and  popular  excitement,  and  therefore,  he  offered  his  amendment. 

Mr.  Powell  being  disabled  by  a  severe  cold  and  hoarseness  from  advocating  at 
length  the  plan  for  an  Executive,  which  he  had  proposed  in  the  Executive  Conunittee, 
contented  himself  with  simply  moving  it  as  an  amendment. 

It  was  suggested  by  the  Chair,  that  the  proper  course  would  be,  first  to  allow  the 
present  amendment  to  be  modified  by  its  friends  and  made  as  perfect  as  possible,  be- 
fore admitting  a  substitute  for  it;  but  as  he  was  informed  the  practice  of  the  House 
of  Delegates  was  different,  he  should  receive  the  amendment. 

Mr.  Stanard  suggested  that  if  it  was  received,  still  the  existing  amendment,  with 
its  modifications,  would  have  priority  ;  the  other  being  subsequent  in  the  order  of  na- 
ture, no  matter  what  might  be  its  place  in  the  order  of  time. 

At  the  suggestion  of  the  Chair,  Mr.  Powell  withdrew  his  amendment  for  the 
present. 

Mr.  Doddridge  was  opposed  to  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Fitzhugh;  and  gave  notice 
that  if  it  should  fail,  he  would  then  modify  his  former  amendment,  so  as  to  make  the 
Governor  eligible  by  the  qualified  voters  for  the  most  numerous  branch  of  the  Legis- 
lature, his  term  to  be  three  years,  and  then  to  be  ineligible  for  three  years. 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Fitzlmgh,  and  carried: 
Ayes  47,  Noes  43. 

'(Messrs.  Marshall  and  Monroe  in  the  affirmative,  Mr.  Madison  in  the  neo-ative.) 

Mr.  Upshur  enquired  of  the  Chair,  if  it  would  be  in  order  to  ofier  a  substitute  for 
this  amendment.  He  explained  himself  to  be  in  favour  of  having  the  Governor 
elected  by  the  people  rather  than  the  Legislature,  and  to  serve  one  term  onlv. 

The  Chair  replying  in  the  affirmative, 

Mr.  Doddridge  moved  to  strike  out  the  whole,  and  insert  as  a  substitute,  the  fol- 
lowing : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Executive  Office  of  this  Commonwealth  be  vested  in  a  Gover- 
nor to  be  elected  by  the  electors  qualified  to  vote  for  members  of  the  most  numerous 
branch  of  the  General  Assembly,  who  shall  continue  in  office  years  and  be  in- 

eligible thereafter  until  after  the  expiration  of  years." 

Mr.  Randolph  rose  merely  to  suggest  a  hope  that  after  the  sense  of  the  Committee 
had  been  so  fairly  and  distinctly  expressed,  the  amendment  would  not  be  pressed  at 
this  particular  time,  when  two  members  from  the  south  side  of  James  river  (Mr. 
Venabie  and  Mr.  Branch,)  were  absent. 

[Mr.  Branch  has  not  yet  arrived,  and  Mr.  Venabie  is  indisposed.] 

Mr.  Doddridge  then  moved  that  this  resolution  be  for  the  present  passed  by. 

Mr.  Giles  wished  to  know  of  the  mover,  whether  he  intended  tlie  election  to  be  by 
a  jnajority  or  only  by  a  ijluralitij  of  the  qualified  voters 

Mr.  D.  said,  he  had  not  thought  of  the  details — they  could  be  reserved. 

The  resolution  was  passed  over,  and  the  Committee  proceeded  to  the  second  reso- 
lution which  reads  as  follows  : 

"  Resolved,  That  there  ought  to  be  appointed  a  Lieutenant  Governor  of  this  Com- 
monwealth." 

Mr.  Mercer  thought  this  resolution  out  of  its  due  order.  If  the  Council  should 
be  retained,  there  could  be  norneed  of  a  Lieutenant  Governor,  He  moved  to  pass  it 
over. 

The  Committee  then  passed  to  the  third  resolution,  in  the  followino-  words  : 
"  Resolved,  That  the  Executive  Council,  as  at  present  organized,  ought  to  be  abo- 
lished, and  that  it  is  inexpedient  to  provide  any  other  Executive  Council." 

Mr.  G-iles  being  disabled  by  the  state  of  his  health  and  voice  from  discussino-  this 
subject,  in  which  he  was  desirous  of  stating  some  facts  and  arguments,  moved  to 
pass  it  by. 

The  Committee  then  passed  by  the  fourth  resolution,  which  was  in  the  following 
words :  ^ 


486 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


"  Resolved,  That  in  case  of  the  removal  of  the  Governor  from  office,  or  of  his 
death,  resignation,  or  inability  to  discharge  the  duties  and  powers  of  his  office,  the 
said  powers  and  duties  shall  devolve  on  the  Lieutenant  Governor ;  and  the  Legisla- 
ture may  provide  for  the  case  of  removal,  death,  or  similar  inability  of  the  Lieutenant 
Governor." 

And  the  fifth  resolution  having  been  read  as  follows  : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Sheriffs  of  the  different  counties  in  the  Commonwealth,  shall 
hereafter  be  elected  by  the  voters  qualified  to  vote  for  the  most  numerous  branch  of 
the  Legislature :" 

Mr.  Henderson  moved  to  strike  out  the  word  Resolved,  (in  effect  to  destroy  the 
resolution.) 

Mr.  Naylor  went  into  a  defence  of  the  resolution  : 

Mr.  Chairman, — As  it  is  expected  that  the  advocates  for  each  provision  now  to  be 
introduced  into  the  Constitution  should  say  something  in  support  of  it,  or  show  some 
cause  for  its  adoption;  and,  as  it  was  on  my  motion  that  this  one  was  reported,  I  think 
it  incumbent  upon  me  to  state  the  considerations  which  prevailed  in  the  Committee, 
and  which  I  think  ought  to  prevail  generally  in  favour  of  this  provision.  In  doing 
this,  I  shall  be  as  brief  as  possible.  It  is  essential  to  the  character  of  a  Republican  Go- 
vernment, that  the  people  with  whom  or  in  whom  is  all  the  power,  should  have  the 
appointment  of  all  their  officers  or  public  functionaries,  either  directly  or  indirectly. 
Now,  there  is  not  an  officer  in  this  Governinent,  so  far,  or  so  entirely  removed  from 
the  control  of  the  people  in  his  appointment  or  otherwise,  as  the  Sheriff.  They  have 
no  agency  in  his  appointment  either  directly  or  indirectly.  He  is  a  creature  entirely 
of  the  county  courts,  and  the  county  courts  create  themselves.  They  perpetuate 
their  own  body,  and  are  what  is  termed  hnperium  in  imperio.  They  have  also  by  long 
usage,  appropriated  the  office  of  Sheriff  to  themselves,  although  there  is  not  a  word  in 
the  Constitution  v/hich  indicates  such  a  meaning.  They  have  just  as  much  right  to 
appropriate  the  clerkship  to  themselves,  as  the  Sheriffalty,  It  is  nothing  more  or  less, 
than  a  set  of  men  entrusted  with  the  power  of  appointment  for  the  good  of  the  com- 
munity, who  have  taken  to  themselves  tlie  whole  benefit  of  it,  and  do  now  exercise 
that  power  of  appointment  for  their  own  use  and  benefit.  They  have  established  an 
order  of  things  among  tiiemselves,  by  which  they  take  this  office  in  a  kind  of  rota- 
tion. And  it  is  now  the  universal  practice,  with  every  one  of  those  county  court 
magistrates,  who  receives  the  office,  to  sell  it  for  the  highest  price  they  can  obtain, 
and  in  some  instances,  as  I  have  been  informed,  tliis  has  been  done  at  public  auction. 
This  has  raised  up  another  class  of  officers  called  Deputy  Sheriffs,  many  of  whom  are 
worthy  and  respectable  in  their  character,  correct  and  upright  in  the  discharge  of 
their  duty,  though,  from  the  circumstances  in  which  they  are  placed,  they  are  all  ex- 
posed to  strong  temptation.  And  where  any  are  disposed  to  yield  to  this  temptation, 
there  is  no  situation  in  which  it  can  be  done  to  so  much  advantage,  with  so  much 
impunity,  and  unfortunately  there  are  too  many  so  disposed.  And  on  account  of  the 
illicit  gains  which  are  to  be  made  in  that  office,  many  of  those  who  farm  the  office, 
give  for  it  more  than  the  v/hole  fees  would  amount  to,  which  is  manifestly  done  upon 
the  calculation  of  indemnifying  themselves  by  peculation  and  exactions  in  one  shape 
or  another,  from  unfortunate  debtors,  to  a  large  amount.  Yes,  Sir,  and  by  these 
means,  the  misfortunes  of  the  unfortunate  are  every  day  aggravated  to  an  extreme  de- 
gree. The  officer  by  delay  in  the  first  instance,  discourages  the  creditor  or  plaintiff, 
insomuch,  that  at  last  he  sells  to  the  Deputy  Sheriff  his  whole  claim  at  a  large  dis- 
count of  perhaps  one-fourth  of  the  whole.  The  sale  of  the  debtor's  property  is  then 
immediately  forced,  which  was  always  delayed  before,  and  the  property  purchased  by 
the  Deputy  or  for  his  benefit  at  perhaps  one  half  of  its  value  ;  it  is  immediately  re-sold 
to  the  debtor  at  its  full  value  on  a  short. credit,  taking  bond  and  good  security  for  the 
amount.  This  bond  is  immediately  put  into  suit  when  it  is  due,  and  then  another 
round  of  shaving  and  extortion  takes  place,  and  may  be  repeated  until  the  original 
debt  is  doubled  or  tripled.  These  men  who  have  been  for  some  years  thus  engaged, 
look  a-head  and  secure  the  office  for  a  number  of  years  in  advance.  The  longer  they 
hold  it,  the  more  adroit  they  become  in  their  extortions,  until  they  become  the  per- 
fect leeches  of  society.  It  is  in  this  office  alone,  that  the  bold  and  daring  usurer  can 
escape ;  it  throws  around  him  a  protection  which  the  law  cannot  or  does  not  break 
through,  and  here  alone  the  laws  against  usury  and  extortion  are  totally  inefficient. 
Thus  it  is,  that  many  who  wish  to  follow  the  practice  of  shaving  or  exacting  unlaw- 
ful interest  for  their  money,  seek  the  off.ce  of  Deputy  Sheriff,  as  the  only  situation  in 
which  it  can  be  carried  on  with  impunity.  It  may  be  enquired,  why  are  not  these 
peculators  punished.?  and  why  is  not  the  law  put  in  force  against  them  ?  The  answer 
is,  that  the  only  persons  to  put  the  law  in  force,  are  always  so  much  in  the  power  of 
those  usurers  and  extortioners  that  they  dare  not  complain. 

If  the  Sheriffs  were  elected  by  the  people,  these  enormities  could  not  and  would 
not  take  place,  for,  although,  these  men  might  escape  from  the  bar  of  pubhc  justice, 
yet  they  would  be  taken  up,  tried,  and  condemned  at  the  bar  of  public  opinion,  and 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


487 


none  such  would  be  permitted  to  hold  the  office.  But  it  will  be  objected,  that  to 
make  the  Sheriff  eligible  by  the  people,  would  be  increasing  the  turmoil  and  turbu- 
lence of  popular  elections,  from  which  much  danger  is  apprehended.  For  my  part, 
I  do  not  apprehend  the  danger  so  much,  or  indeed  any  at  all.  Even  in  the  States  of 
New  York  and  Pennsylvania,  which  are  held  up  to  us  as  frightful  examples  of  popular 
elections,  I  do  not  see  that  so  much  evil  has  resulted.  Where  there  is  the  vitality  of  li- 
berty, there  will  be  the  vivacity  of  liberty,  and  this  is  far  preferable  to  the  calm  which 
reigns  in  those  Governments  v/here  there  is  no  liberty,  where  its  fires  are  repressed 
and  buried  deeply  within  the  mountain  as  it  were  that  shuts  them  in,  until  with  con- 
centrated violence  they  burst  into  a  volcano.  Carry  those  fears  a  degree  further,  and 
it  may  be  found  convenient  and  safe  to  deprive  the  people  of  all  elections,  and  to  save 
them  from  the  trouble  and  demoralizing  influence  of  choosing  any  of  their  public 
functionaries.  But  there  is  certainly  much  more  danger  in  this  fear,  than  all  which 
gives  rise  to  it.  I  would  rather  drink  at  the  hving  rapid  mountain  stream,  although 
it  may  sometimes  be  turbulent,  and  sometimes  overflow  its  banks,  than  to  drink  at  the 
stagnant  pool  which  breeds  pestilence  and  death.  The  one  is  an  apt  representation 
of  free  men  in  the  exercise  of  their  rights,  the  other  of  an  all  paralizing  despotism. 
Moreover,  I  am  compelled  to  say,  that  there  is  something  in  the  Virginian  character, 
which  secures  us  against  all  apprehension  of  those  excesses  which  have  been  pointed 
out  to  us,  as  resulting  from  popular  elections  in  some  States  to  the  North.  The  peo- 
ple in  those  last  mentioned  States  are  much  more  mixed  :  the  native  American  cha- 
racter there  has  been  much  alloyed  with  a  material  which  makes  it  more  variable  and 
unstable.  Not  so  with  the  people  of  Virginia,  where  political  sentiment  moves  on  a 
larger  scale,  and  cannot  be  so  easily  agitated.  Their  history  shows,  that  no  capri- 
cious, or  unreasonable  commotion  has  ever  prevailed  amongst  them,  and  if  there  is  a 
people  on  earth  whom  it  is  safe  to  trust  with  their  own  business  in  this  respect,  it  is 
they.  Why,  then,  refuse  to  permit  them  to  elect  their  Sheriffs:  officers,  who  are 
elected  in  a  great  majority  of  the  other  Sto.tes  by  the  people  ?  especially,  when  it  ap- 
pears to  be  the  most  effectual  remedy  for  the  evils  which  I  have  pointed  out. 

Mr.  Leigh  replied  at  some  length  to  Mr.  Naylor.  (But  the  Reporter  has,  unfortu- 
nately, made  no  sketch  of  his  speech.) 

Mr.  Naylor  in  reply  to  Mr.  Leigh,  said,  that  he  knew  something  of  the  practice  in 
Maryland,  where  the  Sheriffs  are  elected  by  the  people,  and  he  never  knew  or  heard 
of  the  evils,  such  as  had  been  pointed  out  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  as  ex- 
isting there.  In  fact,  he  did  not  see  how  they  could  exist,  for  the  Sheriff  there,  be- 
fore the  sitting  of  a  court,  summonses  forty-eight  men,  qualified  to  serve  as  jurors, 
and  who  serve  during  the  whole  court.  At  the  trial  of  every  cause,  tlie  names  of 
those  forty-eight  men,  written  upon  separate  tickets  are  thrown  into  a  box  promiscu- 
ously,  out  of  which  the  clerk  draws  by  lot,  twelve,  who  constitute  the  jury  to  try  the 
cause.  So  that,  unless  the  Sheriff,  during  the  sitting  of  the  court,  should  summon 
the  whole  forty-eight,  with  an  eye  to  some  particular  cause,  (which  cannot  be  pre- 
sumed,) there  can  be  no  such  packing  of  juries.  And  as  to  our  own  system  of  se- 
lecting juries,  among  other  good  things,  which  he  did  hope  would  result  from  this 
Convention,  would  be  the  rem_oval  of  that  abomination  in  the  administration  of  jus- 
tice;  for,  it  goes  upon  the  unfounded  presumption,  that  there  are  at  all  times  to  be 
found  in  the  court  yard  during  the  sitting  of  the  court  twelve  men,  who  are  compe- 
tent and  fit  to  be  trusted  in  determining  every  cause  as  it  comes  on  for  trial,  in  which 
may  be  involved  the  whole  estate,  or  the  characters  of  those  citizens  interested  in 
those  causes.  And  as  to  men  in  office,  such  as  Sheriffs,  pursuing  with  hostility  those 
who  voted  against  them,  it  is  to  be  hoped,  that  a  high  example  of  that  kind  of  vengeance 
will  remain  a  solitary  one,  not  to  be  repeated  nor  followed  by  those  in  the  humbler 
walks  of  life.  Knowing  and  believing  it  to  be  the  desire  of  a  large  number  of  those 
citizens,  whom  I  have  the  honour  in  part  to  represent,  that  this  alteration  should  be 
made  in  the  Constitution,  with  whom  I  do  concur,  I  have,  therefore,  urged  it,  as  I 
thought  it  my  duty  to  do. 

Mr.  Giles  supported  the  vievv^s  of  Mr.  Leigh,  and  opposed  the  resolution  as  going 
to  destroy  the  foundation  of  the  existing  county  court  system,  which  Mr.  G.  con- 
sidered the  most  valuable  part  of  the  Constitution,  and  that  to  which  the  peaceful  and 
happy  progress  of  affairs  for  fifly-four  years  was  mainly  to  be  attributed.  It  tended 
to  keep  the  power  in  the  hands  of  the  middle  class  of  society,  where  it  ought  to  be : 
it  gave  justice  to  the  poor  at  little  or  no  expense,  and  made  the  justices  of  the  peace 
to  be  what  their  names  import ;  the  conservators  and  promoters  of  the  social  peace  of 
the  Commonwealth. 

The  question  being  taken  on  Mr.  Henderson's  motion,  it  was  carried  by  a  large 
majority :  so  the  resolution  was  stricken  out. 

The  Committee  then  rose,  and  the  House  adjourned. 


488 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


SATURDAY,  November  28, 1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 

Douglass,  of  the  Presbyterian  Church. 

The  House  then  went  again  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour  in 

the  Chair  ;  and  the  question  being  on  the  sixth  resolution  of  the  Executive  Committee, 

which  is  in  the  words  following  : 

Resolved,  That  the  commissioned  officers  of  Militia  Companies  be  nominated  to 

the  Executive  by  a  majority  of  their  respective  companies." 
Mr.  Mercer  moved  that  it  be  passed  by  for  the  present. 
The  Committee  then  passed  to  the  third  resolution,  which  is  as  follows: 
"  Resolved,  That  the  Executive  Council,  as  at  present  organized,  ought  to  be  abol- 
ished, and  that  it  is  inexpedient  to  provide  any  other  Executive  Council." 

Mr.  Mason,  observing  the  absence  of  Mr.  Nicholas,  who  had  moved  an  amendment 

to  this  resolution,  moved  that  it  be  passed  over  for  the  present. 

The  fourth,  fifth,  sixth  and  seventh  resolutions  having  been  passed  over  yesterday, 
The  Committee  took  n\i  the  eighth  resolution,  which  reads  as  follows : 
'■'■Resolved,  That  no  pardon  shall  be  granted  in  any  case,  until  after  conviction  or 

judgment." 

Mr.  Doddridge  having  called  for  an  explanation  of  the  reasons  on  which  this  reso- 
lution was  founded, 

Mr.  Morgan  of  Monongalia,  briefly  explained  it  to  be,  to  prevent  the  interference 
of  the  Executive  in  the  punishment  of  crimes,  by  interposing  a  pardon  before  trial 
and  conviction.  He  referred  to  the  cases  so  frequent  in  the  State  trials  of  Encrland, 
where  the  Crown  had  thrown  in  the  pardoning  prerogative  to  shield  the  accused  be- 
fore prosecution  and  judgment.  Some  instances  had  also  occurred  in  this  country: 
he  did  not  desire  to  trammel  the  prerogative  of  pardon,  but  only  to  have  crime  proved 
before  it  was  forgiven. 

Mr.  Doddridge  thought  the  reasons  not  satisfactory.  In  cases  of  riot,  or  extensive 
combinations  to  resist  the  law,  a  pardon  might  be  a  necessary  means  of  obtaining  tes- 
timony. There  was  not  the  same  danger  of  abuse  here  as  in  England,  because  the 
officer  having  the  pardoning  power,  is  responsible  for  all  his  acts.  The  Executive  is 
not  a  ^'^ first  estate,'"  as  in  Europe.  He  moved  to  strike  out  the  word  Ptesolved,"  (in 
effect  to  destroy  the  resolution.) 

Mr.  Morgan  insisted  on  his  former  ground,  and  stated  the  cnse  where  one  Governor, 
(Desha)  had  pardoned  his  son  without  convictioii  or  trial.  He  saw  no  danger  of  such 
combinations  or  conspiracies,  as  the  gentleman  had  mentioned.  He  thought  less 
danger  would  result  from  the  adnption  of  the  resolution  than  its  rejection.  No  man 
ought  to  be  pardoned  without  Judicial  enquiry  into  his  offence. 

Mr.  Doddridge  admitted  this  as  a  general  rule ;  but  insisted  that  the  public  good 
might,  in  extraordinary  cases,  require  a  departure  from  it.  He  instanced  the  whiskey 
insurrection  in  Pennsylvania,  and  enquired  what  must  have  been  the  result,  if  the 
hands  of  the  Executive  had  been  tied  up  by  such  an  article  in  the  Constitution  The 
Attorney  General  would  have  had  to  file  bills  of  indictment  against  a  whole  commu- 
nity. Suppose  a  civil  war  to  be  quelled  by  the  arm  of  the  Government,  how  was  the 
country  to  be  settled  if  such  an  obstacle  as  this  stood  in  the  way.'' 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  striking  out,  and  carried  without  a  count. 

Mr.  Nicholas  having,  during  the  above  debate,  appeared  and  took  his  seat, 

Mr.  Mason  moved  that  the  Committee  take  up  now  the  third  resolution. 

It  was  taken  up  accordingly,  and  again  read  as  follows: 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Executive  Council,  as  at  present  organized,  ought  to  be  abol- 
ished, and  that  it  is  inexpedient  to  provide  any  other  Executive  Council." 

Mr.  Henderson  moved  that  the  question  on  adopting  the  two  members  of  the  reso- 
lution be  divided. 

The  Chair  reminded  him  that  no  question  would  be  taken  on  the  resolution,  unless 
some  amendment  should  be  offered. 

Mr.  Nicholas  now  moved  the  following  amendment : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  ninth  and  tenth  sections  of  the  present  Constitution  be  re- 
tained, and  that  the  eleventh  be  substituted  by  the  following  resolution : 

"  A  Privy  Council  or  Council  of  State,  consisting  of  four  members,  shall  be  chosen 
by  both  Houses  of  Assembly,  either  from  their  own  members,  or  the  people  at  large, 
to  assist  in  the  administration  of  Government.  They  shall  annually  choose  out  of 
their  own  members  a  Lieutenant  Governor,  who  in  the  case  of  the  death,  inability, 
or  necessary  absence  of  the  Governor,  from  the  Government,  shall  act  as  Governor. 
The  Governor  shall  be  the  President  of  the  Council,  and  shall  in  all  cases  of  decision 
have  the  casting  vote.  ,  Two  members  with  the  Governor,  or  Lieutenant  Governor, 
as  the  case  may  be,  shall  be  sufficient  to  act,  and  their  advice  and  proceedings  shall 
be  entered  of  record,  and  signed  by  the  members  present,  (to  any  part  whereof  any 
member  may  enter  his  dissent)  to  be  laid  before  the  General  Assembly  when  called 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


489 


for  by  them.  The  members  of  the  Council  shall  be  elected  by  both  Houses  of  the 
General  Assembly  for  four  years.  At  the  first  election,  the  two  Houses  shall,  by 
joint  resolution,  divide  the  persons  elected  into  two  classes.  The  seats  of  the  Coun- 
cillors of  the  first  class  shall  be  vacated  at  the  expiration  of  the  second  year ;  of  the 
second  class  at  the  expiration  of  the  fourth  year ;  so  that  one  half  may  be  chosen  every 
second  year;  and  if  vacancies  happen  by  resignation  or  otherwise,  they  shall  be  filled 
by  the  two  Houses  of  the  General  Assembly.  An  adequate,  but  moderate  salary, 
shall  be  settled  on  them  during  their  continuance  in  office,  and  they  shall  be  incapa- 
ble during  that  time,  of  sitting  in  either  House  of  Assembly." 

Mr.  Nicholas,  without  going  into  the  general  question  as  to  the  propriety  of  abol- 
ishing the  Council,  (having  shewn  at  length  his  objections  to  it  on  a  late  occasion,) 
briefly  explained  the  alterations  he  proposed  to  introduce.  Leaving  the  number  as 
at  present,  and  also  the  manner  of  appointing  the  Lieutenant  Governor ;  both  which 
he  considered  as  most  promotive  of  economy,  he  would  abolish  what  is  called  the 
"  scratch,''''  or  dismission  of  two  members  selected  by  the  Legislature  to  go  out  at  a 
given  period:  this  he  had  always  disapproved,  as  an  ostracism  very  odious  in  its  cha- 
racter, and  often  very  injurious  in  its  practical  effect.  He  preferred  classing  the  mem' 
bers,  and  letting  their  time  of  exclusion  come  on  statedly,  so  as  to  avoid  any  hard 
feelings  or  invidious  distinctions.  He  dishked  the  present  arrangement  in  respect  to 
the  pay  of  the  members,  which  was  besides  inoperative  in  practice,  as  by  agreement 
among  themselves,  the  total  amount  of  salary  is  equally  divided.  He  would  do  this 
by  the  Constitution.  A  more  important  change  was  to  give  the  Governor  the  casting 
vote  where  the  Council  shall  be  equally  divided.  He  concluded  by  a  few  general 
remarks  on  the  responsibility  of  the  whole  Executive. 

Mr.  Giles  now  rose  in  support  of  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Nicholas,  and  contended 
with  great  earnestness  against  the  abolition  of  the  Council,  He  replied  to  an  argu- 
ment repeatedly  urged  by  Mr.  Doddridge,  as  to  the  very  decided  majority  of  the  free- 
holders who  had  called  the  Convention.  He  had  always  doubted  that  there  was  any 
such  majority  actually  in  favour  of  the  meesure.  Those  who  were  contented  with 
the  present  state  of  things  had,  in  a  multitude  of  cases,  either  not  voted  at  all,  or 
consented  to  the  Convention  out  of  a  wish  to  indulge  their  neighbours :  while  those 
on  the  other  side  had  been  active  and  persevering,  and  had  turned  out  to  a  man.  He 
believed  if  the  two  first  classes  should,  be  added  to  the  minority,  there  would  be  a 
large  majority  in  opposition  to  the  whole  affair.  However  this  might  be,  he  had  not 
a  doubt  that  now,  after  the  exhibition  made  by  this  body,  the  majority  would  be  very 
decided. 

He  then  went  into  an  examination  of  the  responsibility  of  the  Executive  body— 
the  relation  of  the  Council  to  the  Governor  as  advisers,  and  the  liberty  as  well  as 
personal  responsibility  of  that  officer;  contending  that  a  more  responsible  body,  in 
every  particular  of  all  its  acts,  did  not  exist  under  the  sun — and  challenging  the 
gentlemen  on  the  other  side  to  devise,  if  the}'-  could,  any  conceivable  mode  to  make 
persons  more  responsible.  Every  a,ct  and  every  advice  had  to  be  recorded  and  signed, 
submitted  annually  to  that  body  from  whom  they  received  their  office,  and  then  pub-* 
lished  to  all  the  world.  Nay,  the  principle  was  carried  even  to  harshness  ;  in  the  in- 
stance of  the  scratch,  or  ostracism  of  the  Council :  a  measure  shewing,  however,  the 
wise  caution  of  the  framers  of  tiie  system,  and  one  wiiich  had  a  powerful,  though  not 
a  pleasant  influence  as  a  stimulant  to  duty.  He  was  wilhng  to  have  this  feature  sof» 
tened.  Nor  was  the  impeachment  of  the  Governor  so  arranged,  that  before  it  could 
be  issued,  he  was  out  of  office.  It  did  not  commence  till  he  was  out  of  office,  and 
then  it  might  disqualify  him  from  office  for  the  rest  of  his  life.  What  more  would 
they  desire  an  impeachment  to  effect  ? 

He  then  went  into  a  review  of  the  power  of  the  Executive.  He  referred  to  the 
mass  of  incidental  power  thrown  into  its  hands  every  year  by  the  orders  of  the  Legis- 
lature, and  the  satisfactory  manner  in  which  it  had  always  been  exercised ;  on  which 
point  he  adverted  to  the  late  quotations  from  the  I>egislative  Journal,  and  the  result 
in  triumphantly  vindicating  the  parties  accused.  He  touched  on  the  power  of  the 
Lieutenant  Governor — and  on  the  abortive  attempt  to  improve  the  nature  of  his  of- 
fice— the  new  plan  gave  him  no  duties  at  all.  As  to  substituting  the  Attorney  Gene- 
ral, the  Treasurer  and  Auditor  as  a  Council,  he  scouted  the  idea.  The  first  of  these 
officers  is  now  the  Governor's  official  adviser,  and  the  other  two,  it  is  his  business  to 
watch  over  and  controul,  (and  this  had  been  so  done  as  to  detect  great  defalcations 
and  save  much  money  to  the  Commonwealth.) 

The  pardoning  power  had  been  discussed  by  Mr.  Nicholas.  The  administration  of 
the  Contingent  Fund  was,  in  practice,  the  scrutiny  of  a  miser  over  his  gold  :  accounts 
were  sifted  down  to  a  dollar,  insomuch  that  the  money-hunters  had  given  up  the 
Council  entirely. 

Mr.  G.  then  went  into  an  earnest  remonstrance  against  pulling  down  an  institution 
fiill  of  wisdom,  tested  by  fifty-four  years'  experience,  and  w^hich  defied  scrutiny. 
When  called  to  build  up  something  in  its  place,  they  flinched,  and  could  not  agree, 

62 


490 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Some  wished  to  assimilate  the  Executive  of  this  State,  to  that  of  the  United  States, 
which  he  viewed  as  neither  more  nor  less  than  a  limited  monarch.  Mr.  G.  here 
went  into  the  practical  effects  which  had  been  produced  in  the  General  Government 
by  Executive  patronage,  &c.  and  deprecated  the  introduction  -of  similar  evils  into 
Virginia.  He  adverted  to  the  Executive  of  Pennsylvania,  as  furnishing  a  similar  il- 
lustration, though  on  a  smaller  scale.  He  concluded  by  forcibly  pressing  the  respon- 
sibility under  which  every  member  was  acting,  and  the  solemn  results  to  himself  and 
to  posterity.* 

The  Convention  now  became  involved  in  a  labyrinth  of  questions  of  order  which 
suspended  all  actual  business  for  a  long  time ;  the  particulars  of  which  can  be  of  no 
interest  to  the  public.  They  at  length  became  extricated  by  a  motion  of  Mr.  Powell 
to  strike  out  the  last  clause  of  the  resolution  reported  by  tiie  Executive  Committee, 
viz:     and  that  it  is  inexpedient  to  appoint  any  other  Executive  Council.'' 

The  question  being  taken  on  this  question,  it  was  carried ;  Ayes  55. 

[So  the  Committee  determined  that  it  is  expedient  there  shall  be  a  Council :  and  by 
leaving  the  first  clause  standing,  viz  : 

Resolved,  That  the  Executive  Council  as  at  present  organized,  ought  to  be 
abolished:"  They  did  virtually  determine,  that  the  Council  shall  7iot  be  constituted 
as  at  present.'] 

Mr.  Nicholas  now  moved  to  amend  the  resolution  by  adding  thereto  the  following: 

"  Resolved,  That  the  ninth  and  tenth  sections  of  the  present  Constitution  be  retained, 
and  that  the  eleventh  be  substituted  by  the  following  resolution  :" 

''_A  Privy  Council  or  Council  of  State,  consisting  of  four  members,  shall  be  chosen 
by  joint  ballot  of  both  Houses  of  Assembly,  either  from  their  own  members,  or  the 
people  at  large,  to  assist  in  the  administration  of  Government.  They  shall  annually 
choose  out  of  their  own  members,  a  Lieutenant  Governor,  who  in  case  of  the  death, 
inability,  or  necessary  absence  of  the  Governor  from  tlie  Government,  shall  act  as 
Governor.  The  Governor  shall  be  the  President  of  the  Council,  and  shall  in  all 
cases  of  division,  have  the  casting  vote.  Two  menibers,  with  the  Governor  or  Lieu- 
tenant Governor,  as  the  case  may  be,  shall  be  sufhcient  to  act,  and  their  advice  and 
proceedings  shall  be  entered  of  record,  and  signed  by  the  members  present  (to  any 
part  whereof,  any  member  may  enter  his  dissent)  to  be  laid  before  the  General  As- 
sembly, when  called  for  by  tliem.  The  members  of  that  Council  shall  be  elected  by 
joint  ballot  of  both  Houses  of  the  General  Assembly,  for  four  years.  At  the  first 
election  the  two  Houses  shall  by  joint  resolution,  divide  the  persons  elected  into  two 
classes.  The  seats  of  the  Councillors  of  the  first  class  shall  be  vacated  at  the  expira- 
tion of  the  second  year ;  of  the  second  class  at  the  expiration  of  the  fourth  year ;  so 
that  one  half  may  be  chosen  every  second  year  ;  and  if  vacancies  happen  by  resigna- 
tion, or  otherwise,  they  shall  be  filled  by  joint  ballot  of  the  two  Houses  of  the  General 
Assembly.  An  adequate,  but  moderate  salary,  shall  be  settled  on  them  during  their 
continuance  in  office,  and  they  shall  be  incapable  during  that  time,  of  sitting  in  either 
House  of  Assembly." 

The  question  was  taken  without  debate,  and  decided  in  the  negative:  Ayes  32, 
Noes  not  counted. 

(Messrs.  Monroe,  Marshall  and  Giles,  in  the  affirmative  ;  Mr.  Madison  in  the 
negative.) 

So  Mr.  Nicholas's  amendment  was  rejected. 

Mr.  Leiffh  now  enquiring,  what  sort  of  a  Council  gentlemen  wished 
Mr.  Fitzhugh  referred  him  to  section  eleventh  of  Mr.  Powell's  substitute  : 
^'  Sect.  11.    The  Governor  shall  have  power  to  require  in  writing,  the  opinions  of 
the  Lieutenant  Governor,  and  of  the  Attorney  General,  upon  all  matters  appertaining 
to  tlie  duties  of  his  office." 

Mr.  Leigh  denied  that  this  was  any  Council  at  all.  The  Governor  had  now  the 
riglit  to  ask  counsel  where  he  pleased.  The  Attorney  General  answered  him.  offici- 
ally— but  other  lawyers  were  frequently  consulted,  and  who  would  refuse  ? 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  said,  the  plan  made  it  obligatory,  and  did  not  leave  it  a  mere  act  of 
courtesy. 

Mr.  Leigh  thought  the  difference  immaterial  in  practice.  His  idea  of  a  Council 
was,  that  they  must  be  consulted,  and  that  the  Governor  must  act  according  to  their 
official  advice. 

After  some  conversation  between  Messrs.  Leigh  and  Powell, 

Mr.  Brodnax  moved  a  modification  of  the  proposition,  which  had  been  offisred  by 
Mr.  Nicholas,  viz  : 

"  A  Privy  Council  or  Council  of  State,  consisting  of  members,  shall  be  cho- 
sen by  both  Houses  of  Assembly,  either  from  their  own  members,  or  the  people  at 
large,  to  assist  in  the  administration  of  Government." 

His  wish  was  to  fill  the  blank  with  an  odd  number,  three  or  five, 

*  For  a  more  extended  report  of  Mr.  Giles's  speech,  see  the  Appendix, 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


49% 


Mr.  M'Coy  said,  as  it  seemed  pretty  generally  determined,  that  a  Lieutenant  Gov- 
ernor there  is  to  be,  somehow  or  other,  he  made  the  suggestion,  whether  it  would  not 
be  well  to  give  to  him  the  duties  now  performed  by  the  Council?  He  presumed  it 
was  not  the  plan  to  have  a  Lieutenant  Governor,  who  should  only  be  the  President 
of  a  Bank,  and  act  in  case  of  the  Governor's  death.  He  ought  to  have  some  duty, 
which  continually  devolved  on  him  ;  and  he  could  not  imagine  any  thing  better  for 
him  to  do,  than  to  perfect  himself  in  his  knowledge  of  the  office  of  Governor,  by 
acting  as  his  Council.  He  would  make  the  Lieutenant  Governor  a  substitute  for  the 
Council, 

Mr.  Mercer  suggested  to  Mr.  Brodnax,  as  a  difficulty  growing  out  of  his  plan,  that 
if  the  Council  were  all  in  attendance,  and  the  number  uneven,  the  Governor  must 
either  have  two  votes,  or  in  fact  none  at  all;  and  if  the  advice  of  the  Council  is  to 
be  made  binding,  where  is  his  power  ?  If  any  thing  was  to  be  considered  as  settled  in 
Republican  Government,  it  was,  that  the  Executive  should  derive  its  power  from  the 
people,  and  be  responsible  to  them;  and  that  being  tlius  responsible,  should  be  so 
constituted,  as  to  have  unity  and  efficiency.  Such  Vv'ere  the  principles  laid  down  in 
the  Federalist ;  there  he  had  learned  them ;  nor  had  but  a  single  State  in  the  Union, 
since  the  publication  of  that  vv  ork,  adopted  the  feature  of  an  Executive  Council ;  in 
others,  it  had  been  abolished. 

Mr.  Brodnax  replied — this  was  a  matter  of  detail  to  be  settled  afterwards — some 
might  be  sick  or  absent,  it  was  rarely  that  all  the  members  of  any  deliberative  body 
were  in  attendance.  Some  of  the  members  of  the  Convention  had  been  so  rude  as 
to  get  sick  and  confine  themselves  to  their  rooms.  As  to  the  Governor,  he  must 
never  die:  it  would  be  infamous — treason — a  desertion  of  his  post:  for,  no  substitu- 
tion had  been  provided.  As  to  the  idea  of  the  Lieutenant  Governor's  performing  the 
duties  of  the  Council,  it  seemed  to  him  very  strange.  He  drew  a  picture  of  the 
Governor  and  Lieutenant  Governor  tete  a  tete,  warming  their  toes  before  the  fire," 
and  then  represented  the  Governor  as  bound  to  take  the  advice  of  the  Lieutenant 
Governor,  and  so  the  latter  would  rule. 

Mr.  Nicholas  replied  to  Mr.  M'Coy — and  stating  the  Lieutenant  Governor  to  be, 
politically,  a  nonentity  unless  in  case  of  the  Governor's  death,  asked  how  he  could 
be  his  Council  ?  If  he  was  to  be  always  ready  to  act  in  case  of  the  Governor's  ab- 
sence or  death,  he  must  always  be  on  the  spot,  and  have  a  competent  salary — and  so 
be  a  charge  on  the  State  while  he  did  nothing. 

Mr.  N.  then  read  a  section  of  an  act  empowering  the  Governor  to  supervise  the 
Auditor,  Treasurer,  &c.  and  to  demand  the  advice  of  the  Attorney  General. 

Mr.  Leigh  now  took  the  floor  in  earnest  defence  of  the  Council  as  one  of  the  most 
important  features  of  the  Constitution,  the  preservation  of  which  was  essential  to  the 
peace  of  the  Commonwealth.  He  compared  the  plans  of  a  Council  whose  advice 
the  Governor  shall  be  obliged  to  obtain,  (then  acting  on  his  own  responsibility)  and  a 
Council  whose  advice  he  might  ask  or  not  at  pleasure.  He  warmly  defended  the  ex- 
isting plan  as  calculated,  first,  to  divide  the  power  of  Executive  patronage,  so  as  to 
render  it  innocuous  ;  second,  to  supply  to  a  Governor  new  in  office  a  mass  of  expe- 
rience in  the  details  of  police,  and  of  information  essential  to  the  right  discharge  of 
his  duty;  third,  to  give  him  mature  and  recorded  advice  on  all  his  official  acts — ad- 
vice he  was  compelled  to  ask,  and  by  whicli  he  was  usually  governed,  tliough  free  to 
disregard  it  if  he  was  willing  to  risk  the  responsibility. 

This  last,  he  contended  for  as  the  vital  principle  of  the  present  Executive  system. 
He  dwelt  on  the  virtues  which  had  adorned  this  Council;  the  assiduity  with  which  • 
they  had  attended  to  their  duties,  and  the  happy  effects  to  the  public  peace  which  had 
grown  out  of  this  system  for  fifty-four  -years.  Not  a  charge  could  be  substantiated  to 
shew  usurpation  or  oppression  :  on  this  subject  he  reiterated  his  challenge  to  the  world, 
professing  to  stand  ready  at  any  moment  to  meet  and  refute  the  charge.  He  depre- 
cated it  as  the  very  wantonness  of  innovation  to  destroy  such  an  institution,  v/hich 
had  continued  through  two  wars,  in  the  most  anxious  period  of  the  world's  history, 
without  a  single  act  of  oppression.  Could  as  much  be  said  for  any  Executive  on 
eartii  beside  ?  He  adverted  to  one  of  their  acts  of  mercy  in  pardoning  a  criminal — he 
thought  they  had  erred — but  it  was  not  to  save  a  rich  or  influential  delinquent,  but  a 
poor  despised  slave.  (Here  lie  quoted  Sterne  with  happy  effect.)  He  earnestly  pleaded, 
for  the  love  of  Heaven,  that  the  Committee  would  not,  when  in  perfect  political 
health,  venture  on  such  an  experiment  upon  the  happiness  of  the  Commonwealth, 
He  concluded  a  very  impassioned  address,  by  saying  that  he  felt  bound  to  say  thus 
much,  to  save  an  institution  he  had  alwaj-s  viewed  next  after  the  Freehold  Suffrage, 
and  the  happy  system  of  County  Court  police,  as  the  distinguishing  excellence  of  the 
Commonwealth.  Give  me,  said  Mr.  L.  this  plural  Executive:  give  me  the  neigh- 
bourly'  tribunals  of  the  County  Court  system,  which  bring  justice  to  every  man's 
door  almost  free  of  expense  :  and  give  me,  finally,  the  power  of  Government  in  the 
hands  of  the  independent  yeomanry  of  the  State ;  and  I  will  be  content  that  you 
modify  or  abolish  all  the  rest  at  your  pleasure. 


492 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION, 


Mr.  M'Coy  explained  in  reply  to  Mr.  Brodnax,  who,  he  thought,  had  treated  his 
suggestion  rather  cavalierly. 

Mr.  Brodnax  explained  in  reply,  disclaiming  the  least  intentional  disrespect.  As  a 
close  to  Mr.  Leigh's  appeal,  he  promised  an  anecdote :  and  then  referred  to  the  well 
known  epitaph,  "  I  was  well — seeking  to  be  better — I  took  physic — and  here  I  am." 

Mr.  Johnson  explained  the  grounds  on  which  he  had  voted  against  the  proposition 
of  Mr.  Nicholas,  and  should  vote  against  it  as  now  modified.  He  was  not  decidedly 
of  opinion,  that  the  Council  as  now  organized  ought  to  be  abolished  :  he  would  not 
say  that  he  should  never  so  vote  under  any  circumstances,  but  never  until  some  plan 
should  be  proposed  which  his  mind  could  prefer. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  he  now  rose  for  the  first  and  last  time,  to  make  his  protest  against 
the  assertion,  so  often  repeated,  that  the  friends  of  a  different  organization  of  some 
features  of  the  Government  meant  any  wanton  innovation  in  the  existing  Constitu- 
tion; and  against  the  assertion,  made  before,  and  now  repeated,  that  because  no  spe- 
cification of  examples  of  the  abuse  of  power  had  been  brought  forward,  that  it  was, 
therefore,  to  be  interred,  that  gentlemen  on  his  side  of  the  House, "  dare  not'  make  the 
attempt.  He  said  thus  much,  lest  his  silence  might  be  construed  into  an  acquiescence 
in  the  truth  of  such  a  position. 

Mr.  Randolph  then  addressed  the  Committee  nearly  as  follows  : 

I  was  of  opinion,  before  I  came  to  this  Assembly,  that  this  species  of  legislation 
was  an  anomaly.  I  did  not  expect  to  find  introduced  here,  the  practice  which  obtains 
in  the  British  House  of  Peers ;  where  every  member — every  noble  Lord- — represent- 
ing his  noble  self,  is  at  liberty  to  enter  his  protest  on  the  Journal  of  the  House,  against 
any  thing  he  happens  to  disapprove. 

I  don't  know  where  the  protest  of  the  gentleman  over  the  way  is  intended  to  be 
inscribed ;  but,  inscribe  it  where  he  will,  there  are  none  who  will  remember  it  to-mor- 
row. 

Sir,  I  have  been  brought  by  experience — and  especially  by  recent  observation,  to 
the  conclusion  to  which  a  man  of  sense  and  reflection  might  have  arrived  a  priori — 
that  of  all  the  mechanists  under  the  sun.  Constitution-makers  least  understand  their 
own,  trade.  We  have  given,  I  think,  to  all  the  world,  most  ample  evidence  of  our  un- 
fitness— I  do  not  say  to  make  a  Constitution — but  I  was  almost  about  to  say,  to  tinker 
the  old  Constitution  we  have.  Sir,  I  am  well  satisfied  that  this  Assembly  has  already 
lost — and  is  daily  losing  the  confidence  of  the  people  of  Virginia.  It  becomes  not  me 
to  pass  an  eulogium  on  the  wisdom  and  the  worth  of  many  of  those  who  compose  it ; 
but  the  truth  is,  such  is  the  wisdom  of  our  existing  form  of  Government,  that  no 
proposition  can  be  brought  forward  with  a  view  to  make  an  inroad  upon  it,  that  can 
command  a  respectable  majority:  when  1  say  respectable,  1  refer,  of  course,  to  num- 
bers only — not  one,  that  can  get  in  its  favor,  a  respectable  majority — and  yet,  nothing 
short  of  an  overwhelming  majority,  can  reconcile  the  people  of  Virginia  to  any  impor- 
tant change  in  their  fundamental  law. 

I  did  vote,  reluctantly,  for  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Richmond ;  but  I 
had  almost  risen  from  my  seat  to  move  to  strike  out  the  clause  for  abolishing  the 
CounciL  It  has  been  better  said,  than  I  am  capable  of  saying  it,  that  the  lust  of  inno- 
vation— for  it  is  a  lust — that  is  the  proper  term  for  an  unlawtul  desire — this  lust  of  in- 
novation—this  rerum  novarum  lubido  has  been  the  death  of  all  Republics.  All  men 
of  sense,  ought  to  guard  and  warn  their  neighbours  against  it.  Sir,  I  have  felt  deep 
aflS^iction — mortification — and  humiliation,  at  seeing  this  venerable  fabric  of  our  Go- 
vernment treated  with  as  little  ceremony  as  a  mouse  in  the  receiver  of  a  natural  phi- 
losopher and  experimenter.  There  are  some  things  which  ought  to  be  changed.  I  had 
hoped  W"e  should  at  length  havo  come  to  the  source  of  the  disease — which  is  to  be 
found  in  the  Judicial  body.  It  is  because  of  the  delay — the  delay  ad  indefinitum — I 
Bpeak  it  with  feelings  the  most  respectful  toward  those — and  there  are  such — who 
have  faithfully  discharged  their  duty  ;  but  it  is  the  want  of  that  faithful  discharge  of 
it,  in  too  many,  which  has  brought  all  tliis  about.  Sir,  it  is  there  we  ought  to  apply 
the  remedy.    But  I  am  going  away  from  the  point  before  the  Committee. 

I  rose  to  move,  and  when  in  order,  I  shall  move  you,  to  strike  out  the  whole  of  the 
resolution. 

Sir,  our  discussions  here  have  brought  to  my  recollection  that  beautiful  apologue, 
or  fable,  of  Addison's,  where  he  represents  the  whole  human  race  as  summoned  by 
Jupiter  into  one  assembly — the  God  listens  to  their  various  complaints,  and  then  gives 
permission  to  each  to  lay  down  his  own  grievance  and  take  up  any  that  he  chose  to 
select  among  those  deposited  by  his  neighbours.  A  very  handsome  well-made  man 
lays  down  a  disease  under  which  he  labours,  and  takes  up  the  deformity  which  a 
hump-backed  man  had  thrown  off :  A  mother  brings  her  un dutiful  son— a  wife  her 
bad  husband.  A  husband  comes  with  his  shrew  of  a  wife,  and  selects  another  partner, 
who,  as  he  believes,  will  suit  him  better.  All  were  anxious  to  make  the  change;  for 
it  is  human  nature.  Sir,  to  view  all  the  miseries  of  others  as  very  easy  to  be  endured ; 
yes,  Sir,  nothing  is  so  easy  as  to  endure  other  people's  evils,  unless  it  be  to  spend 


DEBATES   or   THE  CONVENTION. 


493 


other  people's  money.  The  assembly  broke  up  well  pleased,  and  each  returned  to 
his  home  to  try  his  altered  situation.  But.  Sir,  what  was  the  issue  '.  In  a  little  time 
they  all  came  back  a^in.  The  once  handsome  man  came  to  be  set  free  from  his 
hamp — the  diseased  man  to  take  it  back  again:  The  lady  brought  her  new  husband j 
and  the  man  who  had  before  brought  his  shrew  of  a  wife,  came  back  to  seek  her  ag-ain  : 
declaring  that  long  habit  and  intimacy  had  so  cemented  their  union,  that  the  oCd  ico' 
mart  was  the  best  companion  after  all. 

(Here  loud  laughter  was  heard  in  the  gallery,  and  the  Chair  repeatedly  called  to 
order,)  Sir,  I  mean  no  pleasantry  on  such  a  subject:  but  what  I  mean  is  this  j  that 
there  is  not  now  a  mal-content  in  the  Commonwealth,  who,  after  this  new  Constitu- 
tion shall  have  been  adopted,  will  not  in  six  months  more  be  ju;:t  as  much  dissatisfied 
and  more  than  he  is  now.  But  even  if  1  am  mistaken  in  this,  recollect  what  a  vast 
minority  you  must  have  opposed  to  your  plan.  I  believe  there  is  a  majority  who  are 
well  satisfied  with  the  Council  they  have  had  for  these  fifty-four  years,  and  who  will 
see  it  abolished  with  reoret.  E.ecollect  that  change  is  not  always  amendment.  Re- 
member that  you  have  to  reconcile  to  new  institutions  the  whole  mass  of  those  who 
are  contented  with  what  they  have,  and  seek  no  change — and  besides  these,  all  the 
disappointed  of  the  other  class  ;  and  what  possible  chance  is  there  that  your  new  Con- 
stitution can  be  accepted?  If  you  change  tlie  existing  form  of  your  Executive,  your 
Governor  may  come  to  the  most  important  decisions  at  the  most  unguarded  m.oments. 
Publicity  is  the  guardian  of  virtue.  He  cannot  now  decide  in  secret,  where  no  eye 
is  upon  him  but  that  eye,  which  we  are  all  too  apt  to  forget.  It  is  in  privacy  that  tiie 
deepest  and  most  damning  crmes  are  perpetrated.  The  man  who  is  going  to  commit 
wickedness,  ever  shrinks  from  the  eye  of  his  neighbour.  Gentlemen  tell  us  of  the 
economy  of  this  new  Constitution — by  abolishing  the  Council  and  retrenching  the 
numbers  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  they  are  to  save  the  Commonwealth  a  matter  of 
some  b  or  6.000  dollars.  ^Vhy,  Sir,  the  expense  of  this  Convention,  placed  in  the 
funds,  would  pay  the  salaries  of  the  Council  forever — yes,  Sir,  forever. 

These  savinofs  made  by  paring  down  the  Legislature,  and  loppinor  off  the  Council, 
may  not  prove  lo  be  true  economy.  Remember  the  fable — if  the  sheep  will  not  spare 
enouorh  of  their  fleece  to  feed  the  dogs,  they  may  have  to  spare  the  whole  of  it,  and 
the  carcass  to  boot,  to  the  wolf. 

Mr,  Mercer  said,  that  he  liad  felt  it  his  duty  to  maint-ain  silence  under  the  repeated 
challenges  so  pointedly  made  on  tlie  other  side,  as  long  as  silence  was  possible  :  yet  to 
guard  against  the  imputation  of  acquiescence_in  the  views  expressed  in  the  remarks 
of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  he  had  used  a  form  of  expression  common  to  the 
humblest  individual  in  the  humblest  assembly,  by  saying  that  he  protested  against 
such  an  imputation:  and  now  he  had  been  told,  tliat  his  protest,  made  to-dav.  would 
be  forgotten  to-morrow ;  and  this  in  a  tone  and  manner,  to  which  he  could'  not  but 
take  exception.  Humble  as  his  station  might  be,  he  had  constituents,  whose  eve  was 
upon  him  ;  who  watched  over  all  his  otScial  conduct :  and  he  could  have  stated  several 
abuses,  which  had  been  practised  in  special  relation  to  them  :  having  enjoved  the  mani- 
festation of  their  favour  and  affection,  for  more  than  twenty  years,  durinor  which  time 
it  had  never  been  intermitted,  he  felt  bound  to  take  care  that  his  conduct  should  not 
be  misunderstood.  Hitherto,  he  had  done  nothing  which  had  induced  them  to  with- 
draw their  confidence  from  hhn.  and  he- trusted  he  never  should. 

The  question  was  now  taken  on  the  amendment  proposed  by  Mr.  Brodnax,  and  de- 
cided in  the  negative — Ayes  39,  Noes  not  counted. 

Mr.  Monroe  and  Mr.  Marshall  ^iye.  !Mr.  Madison  .Ab.) 

Mr.  Randolph  now  moved  to  strike  out  the  whole  of  the  resolution,  in  order,  that 
should  it  prevail,  the  field  might  be  clear,  and  gentlemen  have  a  carte  blanche  before 
them. 

The  question  being  taken,  it  was  decided  in  the  negative — Ayes  39,  Noes  53. 
Mr.  Fitzhugh  now  moved  the  following  amendment : 

After  these  words,  Resolved.  That  tlie  Executive  Council,  as  at  present  organized, 
ought  to  be  abolished,"  add  these  tcords,  •'•  and  that  the  Governor  shall  have^wer  to 
require  in  writing,  the  opinions  of  upon  all  matters  appertaining  to  the 

duties  of  his  office.'" 

The  amendment  was  adopted — Ayes  50. 

(Mr.  Madison  in  the  affirmative.) 

The  Convention  having  now  acted  upon,  or  else  resolved,  for  the  present,  to  pass 
by  all  the  resolutions  of  the  Executive  Committee, 

Mr.  Powell  expressed  a  desire  to  present  and  to  discuss  his  substitute,  on  the  sub- 
ject of  the  Governor  and  Lieutenant  Governor,  which  he  had  offered  in  the  Executive 
Committee  :  but  Mr.  Henderson  suggesting  that  it  was  now  too  late  an  hour  (three 
o'clock)  to  enter  on  that  discussion,  moved  that  the  Committee  rise. 

It  rose  accordingly,  and  thereupon  the  House  adjourned. 


494 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONYENTION. 


MONDAY,  November  30, 1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Sykes,  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

Mr.  Upshur  of  Northampton,  submitted  as  a  proposition  for  a  compromise,  the  fol- 
lowing : 

"  Jiesolved,  That  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  consist  of  one  hundred  and  twenty 
members,  of  which  there  shall  be  chosen  for  the  hrst  district,  or  district  West  of  the 


Alleghany  Mountain,  26 
For  the  second  district,  or  district  of  the  Valley,  22 
For  the  third  district,  or  district  between  the  Blue  Ridge  and  Tide-water,  38 
For  the  fourth  district,  or  district  between  the  head  of  Tide-water  and  the 

Ocean,  34 
"  Resolved,  That  the  Senate  shall  consist  of  thirty  members,  of  which  there 
shall  be  chosen  for  the  first  district  aforesaid,  7 
For  the  second  district  aforesaid,  6 
For  the  third  district  aforesaid,  9 
For  the  fourth  district  aforesaid,  8 
"  Resolved,  That  the  Legislature  shall  have  power  to  re-arrange  the  Representation 
in  both  Houses  of  the  General  Assembly  once  in  every  years  upon  a  fair 


average  of  the  following  ratios,  to  wit:  1st,  of  white  population;  2d,  of  white  popula- 
tion and  taxation  combmed;  3d,  of  the  Federal  numbers:  Provided,  That  the  number 
of  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  never  exceed  one  hundred  and  sixty,  nor  the  number 
of  the  Senate  forty." 

Mr.  Upshur  accompanied  this  proposition  with  a  few  remarks  in  explanation  of  its 
principles.  He  referred  to  the  three  parties  into  which  the  House  had  been  divided, 
viz  :  those  who  were  in  favor  of  the  basis  of  white  population  exclusivel}' ;  those  who 
were  in  favor  of  the  basis  of  white  population  combined  with  taxation,  and  those  who 
were  in  favor  of  the  basis  of  Federal  numbers.  He  stated  his  own  plan  to  be  an  ave- 
rage, as  nearly  as  was  practicable,  of  all  these  three  ratios.  He  had  carefully  abstained 
from  introducing  simple  taxation  as  an  element,  being  anxious  to  conciliate  as  far  as 
possible,  the  feelings  of  Western  members,  and  desiring  to  oifer  every  concession  on 
his  own  part,  whicli  was  possible,  without  a  total  sacrifice  of  principle,  and  an  utter 
disregard  of  those  great  interests  which  it  was  the  object  of  all  parties  to  protect.  He 
said  it  was  obvious  that  the  basis,  thus  presented  by  him,  must  operate  favorably  to  those 
portions  of  the  country  which  were  increasing  most  rapidly  in  all  the  elements  of 
which  the  basis  was  composed.  In  effect,  he  would  not  doubt  that  the  power  now 
held  by  the  East,  would  in  a  few  years  only,  be  transferred  to  the  West.  He  had 
not,  however,  made  any  calculations  upon  the  subject,  founded  on  our  statistical  tables. 
He  had  purposely  avoided  every  thing  of  the  kind.  He  could  not  tell,  nor  did  he  de- 
sire to  know,  whether  the  West  would  possess  a  majority  in  the  Legislature  in  one  year 
or  in  fifty  years.  He  presented  his  basis  as  a  just  and  fair  compromise  among  all  par- 
ties, and  being  just  and  tiiir  in  principle,  he  left  its  operation  upon  the  several  divi- 
sions of  the  Slate,  to  ful.ure  times.  So  far  as  the  Senate  was  concerned,  his  Western 
friends  would  perceive  at  a  glance,  that  his  proposition  was  much  more  favorable  to 
them  than  any  other  which  had  been  offered.  With  this  explanation  of  his  views  of 
the  principles  of  the  measure  he  proposed,  he  moved  that  his  resolutions  be  referred 
to  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  and  printed  for  the  use  of  the  members.  This  was 
accordingly  done. 

Mr.  Leigh  now  submitted  the  following  with  a  like  view.  He  insisted  only  on  the 
principle  on  which  it  proceeded.  And  was  willing  if  that  was  preserved,  that  the 
details  should  be  modified  : 

That  Representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates  be  apportioned  as  follows : 

"  The  twenty-six  counties  lying  West  of  the  Alleghany  shall  have  twenty-six 
Delegates ; 

"  Thei^burteen  counties  lying  betv/een  the  Alleghany  and  Blue  Ridge  shall  have 
twenty-three  Delegates  ; 

"  The  twenty-nine  counties  lying  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge  and  above  tide-water  shall 
have  forty-two  Delegates ; 

"  And  the  thirty-six  counties  and  four  towns  lying  on  tide-water  shall  have  thirty- 
five  Delegates. 

No  more  new  counties  shall  ever  be  formed  of  the  territory  lying  East  of  the  Blue 
Ridge  of  mountains;  but  the  Legislature  may  in  its  discretion  from  time  to  time,  a 
majority  of  the  whole  number  of  both  Houses  concurring,  whensoever  the  increase  of 
•'  the  population  of  the  country  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge  and  the  more  convenient  ad- 
ministration of  justice  and  poUce  may  require,  form  new  counties,  not  exceeding 
eight,  out  of  the  territory  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  and  whenever  any  such  new 
county  shall  be  formed,  an  additional  Delegate  shall  be  allowed  to  the  country  West 
of  the  Blue  Ridge. 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


496 


And  the  Legislature,  having  regard  to  tjie  relative  state  of  the  population  of  the 
respective  counties,  cities,  and  towns,  and  three-fifths  of  both  Houses  always  con- 
curring, may,  at  any  time,  form  two  or  more  contiguous  counties,  into  one  district,  for 
the  election  of  one  Delegate;  and  may  allow  one  or  m.ore  additional  Deieg-ates  to  anv 
county,  city,  town,  or  district,  so  that  none  shall  ever  be  allovred  more  than  four 
Delegates:  and  may  reduce  the  number  of  Delegates  which  may  or  shall  be  allowed 
to  any  county,  city,  or  town,  to  which  more  than  one  Delegate  may  in  the  first  in- 
stance be  allowed,  so  that  each  be  allowed  at  least  one  :  Provided,  That  the  number 
of  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  never  exceed  one  hundred  and  fifty." 

Mr.  Cooke,  at  the  request  of  sundry  members  from  the  Western  and  middle  parts 
of  the  State,  submitted  the  following  proposition  for  compromise,  which  he  stated  to  be 
the  result  of  an  earnest,  honest,  and  laborious  comparison  of  opinions  among  mem.bers 
from  that  portion  of  the  State,  and  to  have  the  support  of  a  large  portion  of  those  who 
were  the  friends  of  the  white  basis : 

"  Resolved,  That  in  the  opinion  of  this  Committee,  the  Legislative  Department  of 
the  Government  of  this  Commonwealth,  should  consist  of  a  Senate  containing  thirty- 
six,  and  a  House  of  Delegates  containing  one  hundred  and  twenty  members. 

•■  That  the  principle  of  Representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates  should  be  equal 
Representation,  as  nearly  as  may  be,  of  the  free  white  people  in  every  part  of  the 
Commonwealth. 

"  That  the  principle  of  Representation  in  the  Senate  should  be  equal  Representa- 
tion, as  nearly  as  may  be,  of  all  free  persons  taken  in  connection  with  three-fifths 
of  all  other  persons,  in  every  part  of  the  Conomonwealth ;  or,  in  other  words,  the 
equal  Representation,  throughout  the  Commonwealth,  of  what  is  familiarly  called 
'  Federal  numbers.' 

That  an  apportionment  should  be  made,  as  soon  as  may  be,  afler  the  next  census 
which  shall  be  taken  under  the  authority  of  the  United  States,  of  the  members  of  the 
two  Houses  respectively,  on  the  principles  above  stated  throughout  the  Common- 
wealth. 

'•'  That  in  default  of  a  census  by  the  Government  of  the  L^nited  States,  in  1830,  or 
at  any  future  Constitutional  period,  it  should  be  the  duty  of  the  Legislature  to  cause 
a  census  of  the  population  of  this  Commonwealth  to  be  taken,  as  soon  as  may  be  afler 
such  default  shall  occur. 

That  it  should  be  competent  to  the  Legislature  to  substitute  a  census  made  under 
the  authority  of  the  State,  for  the  Federal  census,  if  the  latter,  after  it  shall  have  been 
taken,  shall  be  considered  by  the  Legislature  as  inaccurate  or  imperfect:  Provided 
however,  That  the  next  ensuing  Federal  census,  or  that  of  1S30,  shall  be  definitely 
taken,  as  the  basis  of  the  first  apportionment. 

"  Tha.t  there  should  be,  as  soon  as  may  be,  afler  the  organization  of  the  Govern- 
ment under  any  new  Constitution,  or  any  amended  Co'nstitution  which  shall  be 
adopted  by  the  people  of  Virginia,  on  the  recommendation  of  this  Convention,  and 
at  the  expiration  of  every  ten  years  thereafter,  an  assessment  of  all  the  lands  subject 
to  taxation,  within  the- limits  of  the  Commonwealth." 

This  scheme,  continued  I\lr.  C.  for  apportioning  Representation  throuo-hout  the 
Commonwealth,  on  the  principle  of  compromise,  has  one  recommendation  which  en- 
titles it  to  the  respectful  consideration  of  the  House.  It  is  the  result  of  an  earnest, 
honest,  and  laborious  investigation  and  comparison  of  opinions,  made  by  a  very  con- 
siderable number  of  members  from  the  middle  and  Western  districts,  and  indeed,  by 
nearly  ail  those  who  voted  for  what  is  familiarly  called  the  white  basis"'  of  Repre- 
sentation, as  the  rule  of  apportionment  in  the  House  of  Delegates. 

We  had  not  been  long  assembled  in  this  place,  said  Mr.  C.,  before  the  character 
and  views  of  the  two  parties  which  divide  the  House  were  distinctly  seen.  One 
of  these  parties,  distinguished  by  brilliant  talents,  and  respectable,  even  for  its  num- 
bers, but  still  a  small  minority,  was  opposed  to  all  change  whatsoever.  Some  of  them, 
because  they  considered  the  Constitution  under  which  we  have  lived  for  more  than 
half  a  century,  as  perfect  as  any  institution  merely  human,  can  well  be;  others,  be- 
cause they  thought  that  its  defects  were  more  than  counterbalanced  by  its  valuable 
features,  and  that  it  was  better,  as  they  themselves  expressed  it,  ^'  to  bear  the  ills  we 
have,  than  fly  to  others  that  we  know  not  of." 

A  far  more  numerous  party  in  the  House,  the  friends  of  reform,"  or  of  "  innova- 
tion," if  gentlemen  like  the  term  better,  were  of  opinion,  that  the  Constitution  w-as 
defective  in  many  important  points,  and  required  material  amendments.  But  this 
party  too  was  subdivided  :  while  a  small  portion  of  it  was  content  with  minor  chancres 
a  great  majority  of  this  more  numerous  party,  and  almost  one  half  of  the  House, 
came  hitJier  with  the  fixed  and  deliberate  opinion,  that  the  principle  of  Representa- 
tion proclaimed  in  the  Declaration  of  Rights — the  principle  of  the  equal  Representa- 
tion of  the  free  white  population  of  the  State,  was  the  only  true  Republican  principle, 
and  one,  which  could  not  be  departed  from  in  the  organization  of  either  one  or  the 


496 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


other  of  the  Legislative  bodies,  without  deeply  impairing  the  strength  and  durability 
of  our  Republican  institutions. 

Deeply  impressed  with  the  correctness  of  these  opinions,  they  adhered  to  them 
with  a  pertinacity  corresponding  with  the  strength  of  their  convictions.  Discovering, 
at  length,  however,  the  utter  improbability  of  rallying  round  their  standard,  a  ma- 
jority of  the  House,  they  have  abandoned  the  effort  in  despair.  They  see  the  alternative 
presented  to  them,  of  returning  to  their  constituents  without  having  accomplished  any 
thing,  or  of  endeavouring  to  find  some  middle  ground  on  which  the  conflicting  parties 
may  meet  and  be  reconciled.  Every  feeling  of  patriotism,  every  suggestion  of  sober 
reason,  concurred  in  recommending  the  latter  course,  and  they  resolved  to  adopt  it. 

After  repeated  conferences  they  formed  a  compromise  basis  of  Representation,  that 
which  I  have  just  read,  and  determined  to  offer  it,  in  the  true  spirit  of  compromise, 
and  with  the  hope  of  being  met  in  a  similar  spirit,  by  their  brethren  of  the  East  and 
the  South.  They  have  abandoned,  in  fact,  a  principle  which  is  inexpressibly  dear  to 
them,  and  in  the  feeling  of  expanded  patriotism,  have  ofi'ered  it  up  as  a  sacrifice  on 
the  altar  of  the  public  safety.  They  have  seen  not  this  House  only,  but  the  whole 
people  of  Virginia  divided,  distracted,  and  fevered  for  many  weeks,  by  this  harassing 
and  dangerous  question;  and  they  seek,  by  offering  this  compromise,  to  quiet  these 
alarming  dissensions,  and  restore  peace  and  tranquillity  to  the  Commonwealth.  It  re- 
mains to  be  seen,  whether  they  will  be  met  in  a  similar  spirit,  by  their  brethren  of  the 
East  and  South. 

I  can  assure  gentlemen,  that  there  are  slender  grounds  for  hoping,  that  either  of 
the  plans  of  compromise  this  day  offered  by  the  gentlemen  from  Chesterfield  and 
Northampton,  will  be  satisfactory  to  those,  who  have,  after  mature  deliberation,  de- 
termined to  offer  the  plan  which  I  have  just  presented  to  the  House.  If  it  shall  un- 
happily fail  to  meet  the  approbation  of  those  to  v^hom  it  is  offered,  what  will  be  the 
result We  shall  separate,  having  done  nothing  to  allay  the  ferment  of  the  public 
mind ;  and  icorse  than  nothing.  We  shall  return  to  an  angry  and  divided  people.  We 
shall  be  asked  by  our  constituents,  what  evil  spirit  pervaded  our  councils  to  prevent 
us  from  adopting  a  Constitution  which  should  heal  the  division,  and  restore  the  tran- 
quillity of  the  Commonwealth.  And  what  answer  shall  we  give Is  it  not  obvious 
that  each  party,  that  each  member  of  this  body,  will  seek  to  throw  on  the  opposite 
party,  and  on  other  members,  the  blame  of  having  produced  this  lamentable  result.? 
Is  it  not  obvious  that  crimination  and  recrimination  will  become  the  order  of  the  day  ? 
that  the  country  will  be  inundated  with  inflammatory  addresses that  party  epithets 
will  be  bandied  about,  and  party  hatred  inflamed  to  the  highest  degree  of  inveteracy 
And  can  any  man  who  loves  his  country,  contemplate  the  results  which  are  likely  to 
ensue  from  such  a  state  of  exasperation  in  the  public  mind,  without  a  feeling  of  dis- 
may .''  I  implore  all  those  who  love  their  native  State ;  all  those  who  are  willing  to 
make  some  sacrifice  of  their  preconceived  notions  on  the  altar  of  the  public  safety  ;  some 
compromise  of  opinion  in  the  formation  of  our  organic  law ;  to  rally  round  the  com- 
promise now  offered,  which  has  already  received  the  approving  sanction  of  so  large  a 
portion  of  this  assembly.  Let  us  resolve,  before  this  week  shall  close,  to  settle,  and 
to  settle  amicably  and  forever,  the  differences  which  have  so  long  distracted  the  Com- 
monwealth. Let  us  form  a  Constitution  which  will  unite  the  people  of  Virginia  as  a 
band  of  brothers.  Let  party  names,  and  party  criminations  and  recriminations,  be 
buried  in  eternal  oblivion.  Let  us  hear  no  more  of  Eastern  men,  and  Middle  men, 
and  Western  men  ;  let  us  hereafter  be  Virginians  and  brethren. 

The  resolution  was  referred  to  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  and  ordered  to  be 
printed. 

In  reply  to  a  queere  of  Mr.  Henderson,  Mr,  Leigh  stated  it  to  be  his  purpose  to  carry 
the  same  principle  out  in  its  application  to  the  Senate,  which  he  had  proposed  for  the 
House  of  Delegates. 

Mr.  Cooke  proposed  an  adjournment  to  to-morrow,  with  a  view  to  the  consideration 
of  the  several  proposals  which  had  been  submitted;  but  withdrew  his  motion  at  the 
request  of 

Mr.  Doddridge,  who  suggested  that  there  might  be  other  gentlemen  who  wished  to 
BvDnvciit  projets  of  a  similar  kind. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke  then  submitted  the  following  preamble  and  plan,  which  he 
prefaced  with  some  remarks  on  the  course  of  debate  hitherto,  and  the  relative  posi- 
tion and  offers  of  the  two  great  parties  in  the  Convention  : 

Much  has  been  said  in  this  Committee  on  the  subject  of  compromise.  We  confess 
that  we  have  heard  nothing  proposed  as  yet,  which  deserves  the  name  of  compromise. 
As  we  understand  that  word,  it  imports  mutual  concession  ;  as  yet,  the  concessions 
have  been  required  from  one  party,  from  the  Representatives  of  the  West.  We  of 
the  West  have  in  Committee  of  the  Whole,  carried  one  principle,  and  only  one,  in 
one  branch  of  the  Legislature,  that  is,  the  principle  of  equal  Representation  in  the 
House  of  Delegates.  This  has  not  been  granted  to  the  West  in  the  spirit  of  compro- 
mise, but  by  the  decisions  of  immutable  justice.    The  controversy  now  is  about  the 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


same  principle  in  the  Senate.  We  are  asked  to  compromise  this  principle  in  the 
Senate.  Now,  had  the  East  conceded  to  us  this  principle  in  the  House  of  Delegates, 
they  might  have  asked  us  to  concede  something  to  them  in  the  application  of  this  prin- 
ciple in  the  organization  of  the  Senate.  But  they  did  not,  we  gained  it  so  far  with- 
out any  concession  on  their  part.  But  now,  we  are  required  to  make  the  whole  con- 
cession on  our  part  of  this  principle  to  the  East.  This  is  not,  as  we  think,  compatible 
with  any  just  interpretation  of  the  term  compromise.  If,  however,  the  East  had  car- 
ried without  our  concession,  the  principle  of  Federal  numbers  in  the  Senate,  we  would 
have  then  been  on  equal  ground,  and  both  parties  might  have  fairly  talked  of  and 
entered  into  a  compromise.  We  of  the  West  Vv^ould  still  be  placed  in  awkward  cir- 
cumstances, because  we  would  be  called  upon  to  compromise  a  principle,  which,  as 
republicans  we  can  never,  without  apostacy  from  our  faith,  and  a  renunciation  of  our 
principles,  yield.  Our  brethren  of  the  East  have  as  they  think  to  compromise,  no  re- 
publican principle  :  they  admit,  that  the  principle  for  which  we  contend  is  a  just  prin^ 
ciple  and  a  republican  principle,  were  there  no  peculiar  propertj^,  or  peculiar  interest 
in  the  way.  But  contemplating  the  local  interests  of  the  East  and  the  West,  and 
the  different  states  of  the  East  and  the  West,  they  argue  that  the  principle  for  which 
we  contend  would  be  unjust  and  oppressive,  or  tend  to  injustice  and  oppression  upon 
them  in  the  future  application  of  it.    This  is,  we  think,  a  fair  statement  of  the  case. 

Now,  with  the  utmost  deference  to  these  arguments  and  reasonings,  with  the  most 
conscientious  regard  to  our  own  principles,  and  in  the  true  spirit  of  conciliation  and 
compromise,  we  tender  the  following  scheme: 

1.  "  The  whole  State  shall  be  divided  into  one  hundred  Delegate  districts,  and 
twenty-four  Senatorial  districts,  after  each  and  every  census,  according  to  the  white 
population ;  so  that  the  House  of  Delegates  and  the  Senate  shall  never  exceed  tO" 
gether,  more  than  one  hundred  and  tv.'enty-four  members. 

2.  The  taxes  imposed  upon  every  species  of  property  shall  be  ad  valorem,  and  on 
a  fixed  ratio  between  real  and  personal  property. 

3.  The  appropriations  of  the  revenue  for  any  other  purpose,  than  the  payment  of 
the  expenses  of  Government,  for  any  improvements  East  or  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge, 
shall  be  always  in  exact  proportion  to  the  amount  of  taxes  paid  by  the  citizens  East 
and  West  of  that  Ridge  of  mountains. 

4.  The  revenue  resulting  from  any  improvements  which  shall  hereafler  be  made 
in  the  East  or  the  West,  shall  belong  to  that  section  of  the  State  in  which  said  im- 
provements are  made. 

5.  "  Any  roads  which  may  be  made  over  the  Blue  Ridge  mountain,  shall  be  made 
at  the  expense  of  the  whole  State,  in  equal  proportion  to  the  taxes  paid  by  the 
Eastern  and  Western  divisions  of  the  State  ;  and  the  tolls  thence  accruing,  shall,  in 
the  same  proportion  be  distributed  between  the  East  and  the  West." 

These  propositions  are  made  in  the  spirit,  and  we  humbly  think,  upon  the  fair  and 
just  principles  of  conciliation  and  compromise.  We  would  appeal  to  the  good  sense 
of  the  citizens  of  ex'ery  section  of  the  State ;  to  the  citizens  of  the  whole  United 
States;  nay,  to  the  Universe  itself,  for  the  justice  and  impartiality  of  the  scheme  pro- 
posed. If  there  is  in  it  any  latent  principle  of  injustice,  we  see  it  not ;  we  know  it 
not;  but  upon  the  detection  and  exposition  of  such  a  principle,  we  would  most  cor- 
dially renounce  it.  We  ask  for  nothing,  we  propose  nothing,  which  we  know  of,  dis- 
honourable to  us  or  to  our  brethren. 

We  need  not  be  told  that  such  a  scheme  would  be  inefficient,  being  only  inscribed 
upon  parchment;  for  if  that  were  true,  there  is  no  use  for,  no  security  in,  any  instru- 
ment called  Constitution,  bond  or  covenant,  which  human  hands  can  sign  and  seal. 

We  tender  this  scheme  of  compromise  now  at  the  eleventh  hour,  having  waited  for 
a  full  disclosure  of  the  sentiments  and  views  of  more  mature  minds ;  but  nothing 
having  been  yet  tendered,  which  at  once  saves  our  principles  and  secures  the  interests 
of  all,  we  have  felt  it  our  duty  to  submit  the  above,  and  submit  it  with  all  deference, 
to  the  revision  and  modification  of  every  gentleman,  who  can  improve  it,  without 
changing  the  principles  which  it  recommends. 

Mr.  Marshall  now  rose,  and  addressed  the  Committee  nearly  as  follows: 

Mr.  President:  No  person  in  the  House  can  be  more  truly  gratified  than  I  am,  at 
seeing  the  spirit  that  has  been  manifested  here  to-day  ;  and  it  is  my  earnest  wish  that 
this  spirit  of  concihation  may  be  acted  upon  in  a  fair,  equal  and  honest  manner,  adapt- 
ed to  the  situation  of  the  different  parts  of  tlie  Commonwealth,  which  are  to  be  af- 
fected. As  to  the  general  propositions  which  have  been  offered,  there  is  no  essential 
difference  between  them.  That  tbe  Federal  numbers  and  the  plan  of  the  white  basis 
shall  be  blended  together  so  as  to  allow  each  an  equal  portion  of  power,  seems  to  be 
very  generally  agreed  to.  The  difference  is,  that  one  party  applies  these  two  prin- 
ciples'separately°the  one  to  the  Senate,  the  other  to  the  Ilouse  of  Delegates,  while 
the  other  party  proposes  to  unite  the  two  principles,  and  to  carry  them  in  their  blended 
form  tlirough  the  whole  Legislature.    One  gentleman  differs  in  the  whole  outline  of 

63 


498 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


his  plan.  He  seems  to  imagine  that  we  claim  nothing  of  republican  principles,  when 
we  claim  a  representation  for  property.  Permit  me  to  set  him  right.  I  do  not  say 
that  I  hope  to  satisfy  him  or  others,  who  say  that  Republican  Government  depends 
on  adopting  the  naked  principle  of  numbers,  that  we  are  right;  but  I  think  I  can  sa- 
tisfy him  that  we  do  entertain  a  different  opinion.  1  think  the  soundest  principles  of 
republicanism  do  sanction  some  relation  between  representation  and  taxation.  Cer- 
tainly no  opinion  has  received  the  sanction  of  wiser  statesmen  and  patriots.  I  think 
the  two  ought  to  be  connected.  I  think  this  was  the  principle  of  the  revolution  :  the 
ground  on  which  the  Colonies  were  torn  from  the  motlier  country  and  made  inde- 
pendent States. 

1  shall  not,  however,  go  into  that  discussion  now.  The  House  has  already  heard 
much  said  about  it.  1  would  observe,  that  this  basis  of  Representation  is  a  matter  so 
important  to  Virginia,  that  the  subject  was  reviewed  by  every  thinking  individual  be- 
fore this  Convention  assembled.  Several  different  plans  were  contemplated.  The 
basis  of  white  population  alone  ;  the  basis  of  free  population  alone ;  a  basis  of  popu- 
lation alone  ;  a  basis  compounded  of  taxation  and  white  population,  (or  which  is  the 
same  thing,  a  basis  of  Federal  numbers  :)  two  other  bases  were  also  proposed,  one  re- 
ferring to  the  total  population  of  the  State,  the  other  to  taxation  alone.  Now,  of 
these  various  propositions,  the  basis  of  white  population,  and  the  basis  of  taxation 
alone  are  the  two  extremes.  Between  the  free  population,  and  the  white  population, 
there  is  almost  no  difference  :  Between  the  basis  of  total  population  and  the  basis  of 
taxation,  there  is  but  little  difference.  The  people  of  the  East  thought  that  they  of- 
fered a  fair  compromise,  when  they  proposed  the  compound  basis  of  population  and 
taxation,  or  the  basis  of  the  Federal  numbers.  We  thought  that  we  had  republican: 
precedent  for  this — a  precedent  given  us  by  the  wisest  and  truest  patriots  that  ever 
were  assembled  :  but  that  is  now  past.  We  are  nov/  willing  to  meet  on  a  new  middle 
ground  beyond  what  we  thought  was  a  middle  ground,  and  the  extreme  on  the  other 
side.  We  considered  the  Federal  numbers  as  middle  ground,  and  we  may,  perhaps, 
now  carry  that  proposition.  The  gentleman  assumed  too  much  when  he  said  that 
question  was  decided.  It  cannot  be  considered  as  decided,  till  it  has  come  before  the 
House.  The  majority  is  too  small  to  calculate  upon  it  as  certain  in  the  finai  decision. 
We  are  all  uncertain  as  to  the  issue.  But  all  know  this,  that  if  either  extreme  is 
carried,  it  must  leave  a  wound  in  the  breast  of  the  opposite  party  which  will  fester 
and  rankle,  and  produce  I  know  not  what  mischief.  The  majority,  also,  are  now 
content  once  more  to  divide  the  ground,  and  to  take  a  new  middle  ground.  The 
only  difficulty  is,  whether  the  compromise  shall  be  effected  by  applying  one  principle 
to  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  the  other  to  the  Senate,  or  by  mingling  the  two  prin- 
ciples and  applying  them  in  the  same  form  to  both  branches  of  the  Legislature.''  I 
incline  to  the  latter  opinion.  I  do  not  know,  and  have  not  heard,  any  sufficient  reason 
assigned  for  adopting  different  principles  in  the  two  branches.  Both  are  the  Legisla- 
ture of  Virginia,  and  if  they  are  to  be  organized  on  different  principles,  there  will  be 
just  tlie  same  divisions  between  the  two,  as  appears  in  this  Convention,  It  can  pro- 
duce no  good,  and  may,  I  fear,  produce  some  mischief.  It  will  be  said,  that  one 
branch  is  the  representative  of  one  division  of  the  State,  and  the  other  branch  of 
another  division  of  it.  Ought  they  not  both  to  represent  the  whole  ?  Yet  I  am 
ready  to  submit  to  such  an  arrangement,  if  it  shall  be  the  opinion  of  a  majority  of  this 
House.  If  this  Convention  shall  think  it  best  that  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  be 
organized  in  one  way  and  the  Senate  another,  I  shall  not  withhold  my  assent.  Give 
me  a  Constitution  that  shall  be  received  by  the  people;  a  Constitution  in  which  I  can 
consider  their  different  interests  to  be  duly  represented,  and  I  will  take  it,  though  it 
may  not  be  that  which  I  most  approve. 

While  I  agree  in  the  main  to  the  propositibn  offered  by  the  gentleman  from.  Ches- 
terfield, there  are  some  slight  objections  to  it.  It  is  not  perfectly  equal,  if  you  take 
tlie  census  of  1820,  as  the  basis  of  computation.  I  have  prepared  no  plan  to  be  laid 
before  the  House,  but  have  made  some  calculations  as  a  guide  for  my  own  judgment, 
going  to  show  what  the  apportionment  ought  to  be  on  the  basis  he  has  assumed.  His 
ground  is  that  the  ratio  ought  to  be  an  exact  compromise  of  the  principle  of  white 
population,  and  that  of  the  Federal  numbers.  I  have  endeavoured  to  calculate  the 
result  of  such  a  ratio.  The  whole  white  population  being  six  hundred  and  three 
thousand  and  thirty-one,  and  the  House  of  Delegates  consisting  of  one  hundred  and 
twenty-six,  each  member  will  represent  four  thousand  seven  hundred  and  ninety-one 
white  persons.  The  country  west  of  the  Blue  Ridge  having  one  hundred  and  thirty- 
three  tliousand  one  hundred,  will  be  entitled  to  twenty-seven  members  and  a  large 
fraction  :  I  have  therefore  allowed  them  twenty-eight.  The  Valley  containing  one 
hundred  and  twenty-one  thousand  and  ninety-six  white  persons  will  be  entitled  to 
twenty-five  members.  The  country  between  the  Blue  Ridge  and  tide-water,  having 
one  hundred  and  eighty-nine  thousand  three  hundred  and  fifty-six  free  whites,  will  be 
entitled  to  thirty-nine  members  and  a  large  fraction  :  I  therefore  allow  that  part  of  the 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


State  forty  Delegates.  The  tide-water  country  containing  one  hundred  and  fifty-nine 
thousand  five  hundred  and  seventeen,  will  be  entitled  to  thirty-three  Delegates.  This 
will  be  the  ratio,  taking  the  free  white  population  as  the  basis. 

Let  us  now  assume  as  tiie  basis  the  Federal  numbers.  The  whole  State  contains 
eight  hundred  and  ninety-five  thousand  and  three  Federal  persons.  Each  member 
will,  therefore,  represent  seven  thousand  and  thirty-one  Federal  persons.  The 
Western  district  containing  one  hundred  and  forty-two  thousand  one  hundred  and 
forty-seven  of  such  persons,  will  be  entitled  to  twenty  Delegates.  The  Valley  con- 
taining one  hundred  and  forty-two  thousand  and  eighty-three,  will  also  be  entitled  to 
twenty  Delegates.  The  middle  country  three  hundred  and  thirty  thousand  and 
twenty-five,  will  be  entitled  to  forty-five  and  a  large  fraction,  say  forty-six.  The 
tide-water  country,  containing  two  hundred  and  eighty  thousand  six  hundred  and 
nineteen,  will  be  entitled  to  thirty-nine. 

Now,  Sir,  I  added  these  several  results  of  the  white  basis,  and  of  Federal  numbers, 
and  I  divided  the  amount  by  two,  which  gave  me  the  following,  as  the  average  of  the 
two  ratios : 

For  the  Western  district,  24  Delegates. 

For  the  Valley,  22i,  say  23. 

For  the  Middle  Country,  43i,  say  43. 

For  the  Tide-water  Country,  36. 
I  think  if  we  do  adopt  an  exact  compound  of  these  two  ratios,  we  ought  to  carry 
the  principle  through,  and  take  the  above  numbers,  unless  I  have  committed  some 
arithmetical  error — it  is  possible  I  may,  but  I  think  I  have  not.  The  principle,  then, 
which  I  propose  as  a  compromise  is,  that  the  apportionment  of  representation  shall 
foe  made  according  to  an  exact  compound  of  the  two  principles,  of  the  white  basis 
and  of  the  Federal  numbers,  according  to  the  Census  of  1820.  There  can  be  but  one 
objection  to  this  calculation.  It  is  that  the  Census  of  1820  is  not  the  Census  of  1829. 
I  admit  it.  But  every  thing  of  the  population  of  1829  considered  as  a  basis  is  so 
much  conjectural,  that  it  will  be  difficult  to  come  to  any  satisfactory  result.  I  take 
the  Census  of  1820,  as  preferable  to  such  a  conjectural  basis.  If  it  produces  injustice, 
that  injustice  will  be  temporary  and  of  short  duration.  The  proposition  of  the  gen- 
tleman from  Chesterfield,  which  has  my  perfect  approbation  with  this  exception,  al- 
lows an  immediate  increase  of  numbers  to  that  part  of  the  State  which  must  suffer 
by  the  Census  of  1820.  It  cannot  do  permanent  injustice  to  them  ;  perhaps  not  for  a 
moment;  and  even  if  it  should,  the  other  part  of  the  plan  will  effectually  remove  it. 
Should  there  be  an}''  injustice,  it  must  speedily  be  removed  hy  a  new  Census.  I 
wished  to  avoid  going  into  the  detail  of  the  apportionment  in  each  county.  That  may 
be  left  to  the  first  Legislature  v/hich  shall  assemble  under  the  amended  Constitution. 
Let  the  first  House  of  Delegates  be  constituted  of  five  Representatives  from  each 
Senatorial  district,  you  will  then  have  a  House  consistmg  of  one  hundred  and  twenty 
Delegates,  who  will  be  more  competent  than  ourselves,  to  apportion  the  total  repre- 
sentation among  the  counties,  and  who  can  more  appropriate!}'-  perform  that  office.  I 
should  regret  to  see  the  time  of  the  Convention  wasted  in  balancing  the  controver- 
sies of  the  counties.  I  barely  throw  this  out,  however,  for  consideration.  1  only 
wish,  that  the  calculations  may  be  understood  by  the  Convention,  together  with  the 
principles  on  which  they  have  been  made.  It  will  be  necessary  to  carry  the  substance 
of  this  calculation  in  mind,  before  we  form  a  definite  judgment  on  the  estimates 
which  differ  from  it. 


Mr,  Leigh's  Plan  is  a  House  of  126  Members. 


White  population  amounts  by  the  Census  of  1820,  to  603,081 
In  a  House  of  126.  each  member  will  represent  persons,  4,791 

West  of  the  Alleghany,                                         133,100  27—3,743  28 

Between  the  Alleghany  and  Blue  Rido-e,                  121,096  25—1.321  25 

Between  the  Blue  Ridge  and  Tide-water,                 189.^56  39—2,507  40 

On  Tide- water,                                                   159,517  33—1.414  33 


603,069  124  126 

Federal  numbers  amount  to  895,003 

Each  member  will  represent  persons,  7,031 

West  of  the  Alleghany,  >      142,147  20—1,527  20 

Between  the  Alleghany  and  Blue  Ridge,  142,083  20  -1,463  20 

Between  the  Blue  Ridge  and  Tide-water,  330,025  46—6.599  47 

On  Tide -water,  280,619  39—6,410  39 


894,874  125  126 


500 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


To  divide  the  apportionment  between  white  population  and  Federal  numbers : 
West  of  the  Alleghany,  ^  Federal,  20 


On  Tide-water,  >  p^^^^^'j 


48  24 


Between  the  Alleghany  and  Blue  Ridge,  ^  j^jlfj^  20 

45  23 


Between  the  Blue  Ridge  and  Tide-waterj  ^  J^^e^j.^^]  4? 


87  43 


White,  33 


39 

72  36 


126 

The  white  population  and  Federal  numbers  added,  and  then  divided,  give  220,068 
If  the  country  on  tide-water  be  entitled  to  36  members,  then  each  member 

will  represent,  6,113 


Whites.     Fed.  Noa. 
The  Henrico  district  contains,  -  21,885  40,395 

Its  share  of  36  members,  is  4—3,001    5—4,240  9—7,241 


4_8,620 

Mr.  Leigh  explained  the  ground  of  the  slight  difference  between  his  estimate  and 
that  of  Mr.  Marshall,  arising  from  the  latter's  having  referred  to  the  Census  of  1820, 
while  Mr.  L.  endeavoured  to  approximate  the  true  estimate  of  the  present  population. 
He  had  allowed  two  more  to  the  Western  district,  being  resolved  to  guard  against  the 
influence  of  his  own  partialities. 

Mr.  Nicholas  would  not  commit  himself  by  any  pledge  to  vote  for  either  of  these 
plans  till  he  had  considered  their  practical  effect  on  his  own  district :  in  matters  of 
general  principles  he  was  a  representative  of  the  State  at  large— but  in  a  plan  of 
compromise  he  must  look  at  home. 

Mr.  Randolph  expressed  his  very  high  personal  respect  for  the  gentleman  from 
Richmond,  (Mr.  Marshall,)  who  had  given  his  views  to  the  Convention.  The  very 
^reat  weight,  said  Mr.  R.,  which  that  gentleman  has  here,  in  the  Commonwealth,  and 
in  the  Union,  makes  me  desirous  that  I  may  be  under  no  misapprehension  of  his  mean- 
ing. I  rise  to  put  myself  right.  If  I  understood  him  rightly,  he  describes  the  two 
extremes  of  the  question  to  be,  on  one  side  the  principle  of  naked  numbers,  and  on 
the  other,  that  of  taxation  taken  alone.  Between  these  two  extremes  he  has  found  a 
medium — consisting  of  the  Federal  numbers.  This  he  considers  as  a  proper,  middle 
ground  of  compromise.  Now,  I  see  nothing  in  a  fair  sprit  of  compromise  in  depart- 
ing from  this  golden  mean,  and  taking  the  white  basis  as  one  extreme  and  the  Federal 
numbers  as  the  other,  to  meet  half-way.  Let  me  illustrate  my  meaning.  Two  neigh- 
bours have  a  dispute,  and  the  sum  in  controversy  between  them  amounts  to  $100  : 
Each  rigorously  insisting  that  that  amount  is  due  to  him.  They  agree  at  length,  (to  use 
tt  phrase  which  has  been  already  employed,  and  which  though  it  be  a  vulgar  one,  ex- 
actly expresses  the  idea)  to  split  the  difference:  $50  is  the  half-way  point.  But,  says 
one  of  the  parties,  let  us  now  make  a  fair  compromise  :  I  will  take  the  $  100  I  claimed 
as  one  point,  and  this  $50  as  the  other,  and  then  you  shall  pay  me  $75,  With  all 
tny  heartj  says  the  other,  but  with  this  difference  :  I  will  take  nothing  for  the  one 
point,  and  this  $50  for  the  other,  and  then  I  will  pay  you  $25.  According  to  which 
extreme  you  go,  on  one  side  or  other  of  the  middle  ground,  you  must  pay  75  or 
2o  p^r  cent,  of  your  n^'ghbour's  demand.  I  cannot  see  the  justice  after  we  have 
fixed  upon  one  golden  mean,  a  "  vicdio  tvtissimus,''  of  leaving  it  for  another  middle 
ground,  between  this  and  the  extreme  of  the  stern  inexorable  demand  of  our  adver- 
saries. I  thought  it  due  to  myself  to  state  what  gross  injustice  I  consider,  first  to  fix 
Upon  the  Federal  numbers — and  then,  after  settling  upon  that  as  a  ground  of  compro- 
mise, to  make  it  only  one  of  two  extremes,  taking  the  utmost  claim  of  numbers  for 
the  other  extreme  and  going  into  a  new  compromise  between  these  two. 

Mr.  Powell  considei-ed  the  course  which  had  been  pursued  as  tending  rather  to  re- 
tard than  advance  a  compromise — it  was  calculated  to  distract  and  divide,  and  to  draw 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONTENTIOX. 


501 


off  the  minds  of  gentlemen  from  the  steady  purpose  they  had  cherished,  Tvhen  they 
offered  the  compromise  stated  by  liis  friend  from  Frederick  (Mr.  Cooke.)  All  the 
principles  in  Mr.  Leigh's  proposition  had  been  discussed  and  successively  rejected. 
They  had  already  conceded  %Yhat  they  considered  most  important,  by  giving  up  the 
white  basis  in  the  Senate :  he  called  upon  his  friends  to  stand  firm  to  the  ground  they 
had  taken,  and  not  have  their  minds  distracted  by  these  various  schemes, 

Mr.  Mercer  moved  that  the  House  go  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  but  vrithdrew 
the  motion  at  the  request  of 

Mr.  Johnson,  who  expressed  his  lively  satisfaction  at  seeing  the  gravest  and  most 
experienced  members  coming  forward,  with  endeavours  to  bring  this  vexed  question 
to  an  amicable  issue  :  he  did  not  now  despair  of  success.  He  preferred  having  a  prin- 
ciple laid  dovvn,  for  all  future  time,  to  leaving  the  ratio  of  Representation  within  the 
reach  of  Legislative  enactment.  He  disclaimed  any  thing  like  a  pledge  to  vote  for  the 
compromise°of  2vlr.  Cooke — but  held  himself  at  liberty  to  embrace  any  other  which  he 
should  consider  preferable  in  its  results.  He  concluded  by  moving  the  reference  of 
the  various  projects  to  a  Select  Committee  of  seven, 

Mr.  Leio-h  opposed  the  motion — According  as  the  majority  in  the  Select  Committee 
should  be  on  one  side  or  the  other,  so  would  be  the  report,  and  all  would  have  to  be 
gone  over  again.  He  had  himself  been  willing  to  concede — but  the  gentieman  from 
Frederick  met  that  spirit,  by  calling  on  his  friends  to  "  stand  firm/' 

Mr.  Powell  disclaimed  having  spoken  of  any  pledge.  He  had  called  on  the  friends 
of  the  comprom.ise  ofi'ered  by  the  West,  to  stand  firm,  and  not  permit  their  minds  to 
be  distracted  hy  various  propositions  from  that  which  they  had  agreed  to  offer. 

Mr.  Leigh  still  referring  to  the  import  of  "  standing  firm," 

Mr.  Powell  said,  he  meant  to  call  on  them  to  stand  firm,  unless  in  their  conscience 
tliev  believed  some  one  of  the  other  schemes  to  be  better. 
Mr.  Doddridge  enquired,  what  was  the  question  ? 

The  President  replied — Explained  why  he  had  given  some  latitude  to  the  previous 
conversation,  and  stated  the  question  to  be  on  2ylr,  Johnson's  motion  for  a  Select  Com- 
mittee. 

Mr.  Leigh  again  referring  to  Mr.  Powell's  call,  said,  if  those  gentlemen  were  re- 
solved to  -^stand  firm,"  he  trusted  in  God  they  (himself  and  friends)  could  stand  as 
firm  on  the  ground  of  liberty,  truth  and  justice  they  had  taken.  The  moment  gentle- 
men should  shew  themselves  ready  to  meet  and  offer  for  compromise,  he  was  prepared 
to  meet  them — but  he  would  not  travel  one  inch  if  tiiey  were  to  "stand  firm."  He 
opposed  the  plan  of  a  Select  Committee. 

Mr.  Stanard  agreed  in  considering  Mr.  Johnson's  motion  as  likely  to  issue  in  no- 
thing; but  was  willing  to  give  it  a  trial.  He  again  adverted  to  the  diflerent  results  ob- 
tained by  referring  to  tax-payers,  qualified  voters,  and  all  persons  over  twenty-one. 
If  the  tax-payers  on  the  Commissioners"  books  should  be  taken  as  a  basis,  the  result 
would  be  nearly  the  same  as  by  adopting  the  ratio  of  Federal  numbers.  He  insisted 
on  the  advantages  of  adopting  this  basis,  as  giving  a  permanent  and  fair  rule  of  Re- 
presentation, 

Mr,  Doddridge  in  explanation  to  ISlc.  Stanard,  disclaimed  any  opinion  on  the  part 
of  his  friends,  tiiat  Representation  was  to  be  based  on  voters  alone  :  none  of  them  held 
it  but  Mr.  Johnson.  He  opposed  the  plan  of  a  Select  Committee,  as  only  ffoino-  to 
clothe  the  opinions  of  the  majority,  which  ever  side  it  should  be,  in  the  best  Maimer 
to  be  sent  to  the  public, 

Mr.  Randolph  said,  that  he  rose  to  express  a  hope  that  the  motion  of  the  gentleman 
from  Augusta.,  would  not  prevail.  He  was  not  surprised  that  it  should  have  been 
made.  If  he  recollected  right,  this  was  the  direction  which  that  gentleman  would, 
have  given  to  the  proceedings  of  the  Convention  ah  initio :  it  was  therefore  not  sur- 
prising that  he  should  look  with  favour  on  such  a  plan.  Though  I,  said  Mr.  R.  am 
not  one  of  the  protestors,  I  must  be  permitted  to  deny  the  right.  (I  speak  of  course  of 
the  Parliamentary  right.)  of  any  gentleman  on  tins  floor — on^behalf  of  himself  and  his 
friends — I  was  about  to  use  a  "hard  word,  but  I  mean  it  in  no  offensive  sense — to  ar- 
rogate to  tiremselves  the  description  of  a  majority,  in  great  clemency  and  condescen- 
sion, holding  out  concessions  to  a  minority,  as  a  prince  would  hold  out  an  offer  of 
amnesty  to  his  revolted  subjects.  There  is  nothing  to  justify  any  gentleman  here  in 
assuming  such  a  tone.  If  there  be.  why  was  not  tlie  famous  white  basis  of  their's  loner 
ago  adopted  by  the  Convention?  But  if  there  were  a  decided  and  fixed  majority  in 
favor  of  such  a  proposition — I  speak  for  myself  and  as  no  man's  proxy — I  will  accept 
no  Constitution,  that  has  the  monstrous,  the  tyrannous,  the  preposterous,  and  abomi- 
nable principle,  that  numbers  alone  are  to  be  regarded  as  a  fit  basis  of  Representation 
in  the  House  of  Delegates.  You  may  compromise  till  the  Day  of  Judgment :  you  may 
offer  us  any  plan  you  will :  give  us  any  form  of  the  Senate  vou  hke,  with  a  Governor 

elected  by  that  Senate:  whife  this  principle  is  retained,  I  will  reject' the  whole  I  nail 

my  colours  to  the  mast.  I  will  go  down  :  but  I  will  never  surrender  to  the  principle  of 
mere  white  population  as  a  basis  for  the  lower  House.  It  never  can  be  endured.  It  leads 


502 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


to  a  despotism,  and  a  state  of  vassalage,  to  which  I  never  will  submit — and  to  which  1 
am  very  sure  that  the  great  body  of  the  ti-eeholders  of  Virginia,  on  this  side  the  moun- 
tain, never  will  submit.  Gild  tlie  pill  as  you  will,  they  never  can  be  made  to  swallow 
this  poison.  There  cannot  be  any  Select  Committee  which  will  justly  represent  the 
feelings  of  the  whole  of  this  body.  I  apprehend  the  plan  is  to  bring  forward  some 
project  very  disagreeable  to  all  parties,  under  the  sanction  and  authority  of  weighty 
names.  No  Select  Committee  can  be  chosen,  that  will  have  my  confidence.  I  will 
make  no  man  my  proxy,  to  speak  for  me. 

Mr.  Mercer  rose  to  express  his  thanks  to  his  venerable  friend  before  him  (Mr.  Mar- 
shall) for  the  determination  he  had  expressed,  that  if  there  should  be  a  majority  in  fa- 
vor of  the  scheme  proposed  by  his  friend  from  Frederick,  he  would  yield  his  assent 
to  it,  though  it  might  not  be  that  which  he  would  prefer.  It  would  be  recollected 
that  that  scheme  proposed  the  white  basis  in  one  House,  and  the  basis  of  Federal 
numbers  in  the  other.  Mr.  M.  opposed  at  some  length  the  plan  of  a  Select  Commit- 
tee— the  duty  proposed  to  be  assigned  to  them  was  one  of  the  last  that  should  be  given 
to  a  committee  of  that  description. 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  the  motion  of  Mr.  Johnson,  and  decided  in  the 
negative. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Nicholas,  the  statement  submitted  by  Mr.  Marshall  was  referred 
to  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  and  ordered  to  be  printed. 

Mr.  Cooke  now  moved  an  adjournment,  but  withdrew  the  motion  at  the  request  of 
Mr.  Leigh,  with  a  view  to  taking  up  some  other  subject. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Nicholas,  a  Committee  of  three  members  was  appointed  to  enquire 
into  some  other  place  of  meeting  for  the  Convention  (on  account  of  the  approaching 
session  of  the  Legislature.) 

Messrs.  Nicholas,  Johnson  and  Leigh,  were  appointed  to  constitute  such  Committee. 

Mr.  Wilson  gave  notice,  that  on  some  day  of  this  week  he  should  move  that  this 
Convention  adjourn  to  meet  again  on  the  first  Monday  in  October,  1830. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Mercer,  the  House  then  went  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr. 
Stanard  in  the  Chair,  and  took  up  the  report  of  the  Judiciary  Committee.  And  the 
question  being  on  the  first  resolution  of  that  report,  which  reads  as  follows : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Judicial  power  shall  be  vested  in  a  Court  of  Appeals,  in  such 
Inferior  Courts,  as  the  Legislature  shall  from  time  to  time  ordain  and  establish,  and  in 
the  County  Courts.  The  jurisdiction  of  these  tribunals  shall  be  regulated  by  law.  The 
Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals  and  of  the  Inferior  Courts,  shall  hold  their  ofiices  du- 
ring good  behaviour,  or  until  removed  in  the  manner  prescribed  in  this  Constitution: 
and  shall,  at  the  same  time,  hold  no  other  office,  appointment  or  pubhc  trust:  and  the 
acceptance  thereof,  by  either  of  them,  shall  vacate  his  Judicial  office.  No  modifica- 
tion or  abolition  of  any  court,  shall  be  construed  to  deprive  any  Judge  thereof  of  his 
office;  but  such  Judge  shall  perform  any  Judicial  duties  which  the  Legislature  shall 
assign  him." 

Mr.  Bayly  moved  to  amend  the  resolution  by  striking  out  the  words  "  and  in  the 
County  Courts." 

Mr.  Bayly  said :  My  motion,  if  agreed  to,will  not  destroy  the  County  Court  system; 
all  it  demands  is  to  place  them  with  the  other  Inferior  Courts  of  this  Commonwealth, 
subject  to  the  control  and  organization  of  the  General  Assembly;  that  the  power  may 
be  given  to  the  people,  by  their  representatives,  to  change  them  whenever,  from  their 
incapacity,  they  become  unfit  to  administer  justice,  or  to  abolish  them  whenever  they 
become  corrupt,  and  are  unworthy  to  be  trusted  with  any  authority.  If  my  proposi- 
tion shall  prevail,  it  will  make  the  Covirt  of  Appeals  the  only  Supreme  and  Constitu- 
tional Court,  and  leave  all  other  courts  subject  to  legislation  as  circumstances  and  the 
good  of  the  Commonwealth  may  require  :  it  will  not  destroy  these  courts,  but  place 
them  by  the  side  of  the  Superior  Courts  of  Chancery  and  Common  Law :  and  all 
will  remain  as  now  organized,  until  the  people  experience  the  necessity  of  a  reforma- 
tion, and  therefore  it  is  proper  that  the  Legislature  should  have  the  power  of  protecting 
.them,  if  worthy  of  protection,  or  of  destroying  them,  if  they  deserve  such  a  fate.  I 
do  not  understand  why  courts  of  higher  grade,  and  the  Judges  of  these  courts, 
which  it  is  the  wish  of  gentlemen  should  be  so  perfectly  independent,  should  be  put 
in  the  power  of  the  General  Assembly  to  abolish  or  reform,  and  the  County  Courts, 
so  inferior  in  every  requisite  qualification  to  exalt  a  tribunal  of  justice,  shall  be  held 
too  sacred  ever  to  be  changed. 

Much  has  been  said  in  debate,  in  commendation  of  these  courts  before  we  have 
reached  the  report  of  the  Committee  which  relates  to  the  Judiciary  Department.  In 
my  judgment,  it  would  have  been  better  if  all  that  has  heretofore  been  urged  in  their 
favour,  had  been  reserved  for  its  proper  place  in  the  order  of  discussion. 

I  am  aware  that  by  some,  these  courts  are  deemed  highly  desirable,  and  in  some 
parts  of  the  State  the  people  approve  the  system ;  but  there  are  other  sections  of  the 
country  that  entertain  very  opposite  opinions,  and  therefore  I  do  not  urge  their  des- 
truction now.  All  I  ask,  is  to  let  them  hereafter  be  judged  according  to  their  good  or 
evil  deeds.    And  if  thej  are  so  popular  as  their  friends  represent  them  to  be,  no 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


503 


doubt  the  Legislature,  speaking  the  will  of  the  people,  will  preserre  the  system. 
When  these  courts  were  first  established,  they  were  clothed  witli  the  high  power 
they  now  possess,  and  nothing  but  the  then  necessity  of  the  times,  situation,  and  cir- 
cumstances of  the  country  would  have  justified  so  great  a  departure  from  republican 
principles  as  to  unite  in  the  same  body  of  men,  Legislative,  Executive,  and  Judicial 
authority.  These  men,  appointed  by  themselves,  a  self-constituted  tribunal,  which 
appoint  "all  civil  officers  of  the  county,  high  and  low  5  all  mihtia  officers  under  the 
grade  of  Brigadier  General ;  they,  lay  all  the  taxes  for  county  purposes,  which  is  more 
in  some  counties  than  the  State 'tax.  Tiie  county  and  State  taxes  are  collected  by 
tlie  sherifi",  who  is  appointed  by  the  justices  of  the  court,  and  is  one  of  them  when 
they  make  the  appointment,  and  vrill  return  to  the  bench  after  his  term  of  two  years 
of  sheriffalty  ends  ;  for,  he  will  be  surely  recommended.  A  sheriff  thus  appointed  con- 
siders himself  perfedly  secure  from  all  punishment,  however  guilty  ,  if  charged  before 
this  court.  I  will  not  say  that  a  court  thus  appointed,  and  poss<^ssing  the  power  and 
authority  they  do,  is  aristocratic,  lest  some  gentlemen  may  consider  it  pure  republican. 
To  me,  however,  it  appears  to  be  in  opposition  to  those  great  principles  of  free  Gov- 
ernment which  declare  that  the  Legislative  and  Executive  powers  should  be  separate 
and  distinct  from  the  Judiciary,  and  that  a  freeman  ought  not  to  be  taxed  without  his 
consent,  expressed  by  himself  or  his  representative.  In  1776,  when  the  Constitution 
was  formed,  the  people  were  looking  more  at  a  state  of  war  than  peace,  and  the 
County  Courts  were  in  effect  committees  of  public  safety  :  there  was  a  necessity  for 
giving' the  justices  of  the  county  high  and  responsible  powers;  they  consisted  of  the 
most  "distinguished  men,  and  their  influence  aided  greatly  in  the  revolutionary  cause. 
At  that  time  it  was  politic,  and  I  am  persuaded  it  was  the  best  Constitution  that  could 
then  be  formed  ;  it  was  fitted  to  the  times ;  it  did  its  full  part  in  establishing  the  in- 
dependence of  the  country,  and  it  worked  well  for  twenty  years  afterwards;,  it  was 
then  in  its  youth,  virtuous  and  respected :  now  the  times  are  changed,  the  system  is 
worn  out ;  the  people  understand  more  of  the  principles  of  free  Government,  feel 
their  power,  and  know  their  rights,  and  will  exercise  them.  Tou  must  change  the 
mode  of  appointing  the  justices,  or  their  courts  will  not  be  worthy  of  the  confidence 
of  the  people. 

The  ofentleman  from  Chesterfield,  (Mr.  Leigh.)  introduced  the  subject  of  the 
County  Courts,  and  th£ir  powers,  to  aid  his  argument  in  opposing  the  election  of  the 
sheriff  by  the  people.  He  said,  that  the  court,  thus  org-anized,  had  never  done  any 
injur}",  and  that  the  appointment  of  sheriff  ought  to  continue  in  their  hands,  to  com- 
pensate themselves  for  their  services. 

When  this  Committee  refused  to  concur  in  the  resolution  of  tlie  Select  Committee, 
providing  that  the  election  of  the  sheriffs  should  be  by  the  people,  it  was  not  thereby 
decided  that  they  should  be  appointed  as  heretofore.  For,  should  no  constitutional 
provision  be  made,  prescribing  the  manner  of  the  appointments,  it  would  be  left  to 
the  General  Assembly,  to  be  regulated  by  law;  and  I  do  not  entertain  a  doubt,  but 
that  public  opinion,  which  is  so  powerful  in  this  country,  would  in  two  or  three  vears, 
compel  the  Legislature  to  give  that  appointment  to  the  people,  by  election;  and  they 
would  make  a  better  selection  of  a  man  capable  and  honest,  to  fill  that  office,  than  by 
the  mode  now  pursued  :  at  all  events,  the  people  would  so  consider  it,  and  be  better 
satisfied  with  the  man  of  their  choice. 

We  are  informed  by  the  same  gentleman,  that  the  justices  are  not  compelled  to  ap- 
point the  sheriff  from  one  of  themselves.  Sir,  I  know  that  they  can  recommend  any 
man  not  belonging  to  their  bench,  and  it  is  no  compliment  to  them  to  say,  that  al- 
though tliey  are  not  by  the  law,  or  the  Constitution,  compelled  to  appoint  one  of  their 
brethren,  yet  they  always  take  care  to  do  it,  and  their  practice  has  made  it  law  in  ef- 
fect. The  justices  of  the  peace  not  only  give  the  sheriffalt}-  to  themselves,  in  rotation, 
but  every  other  office  of  honor  or  trust  in  their  counties,  they  either  fill  from  the 
bench,  or  bestow  on  some  family  connexion.  In  some  parts  of  the  State,  even  the 
petty  office  of  the  commissioner  of  the  revenue  is  passed  from  one  justice  to  another, 
for  the  emoluments  it  affords,  and  they  annually  make  the  appointment,  to  give  every 
justice  his  rotation  in  that  office.  In  other  counties,  a  justice  of  the  peace  having 
great  influence  in  the  court,  is  commissioner  for  life ;  however  unfit  he  may  be  to 
discharge  the  duties,  he  considers  himself  perfectly  secure,  and  thus  lie  is  at  the  same 
time  a  justice  of  the  peace,  a  justice  of  the  County  Court,  exercising  great  judicial 
powers,  and  a  commissioner  of  the  revenue,  appointed  by  the  same  court,  and  exer- 
cising ministerial  and  executive  duties ;  and  in  all  this  the  people  are  not  consulted, 
for  they  have  no  voice  in  the  appointment  of  this  man,  who  has  a  power  of  great 
magnitude  over  them.  In  practice,  the  justices  of  the  peace  in  court  and  out  of 
court,  monopolize  to  tliemselves  all  the  offices  in  the  county  that  are  worth  possessing. 

The  gentleman  from  Amelia,  (Mr.  Giles.)  has  said  that  the  County  Court  system 
operates  to  throw  all  the  power  of  the  county  into  the  middle  class  of  the  communitv. 
What  that  gentleman  means  by  the  middle  class  of  tlie  communitv.  he  has  not  ex- 
plained.   Perhaps  what  he  considers  the  middle  class,  I  may  consider  the  best  class; 


504 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


but  I  have  yet  to  learn  that  those  who  compose  these  courts,  are  either  the  middle  or 
the  best  part  of  the  people.  Constituted  as  they  now  are,  with  an  unlimited  jurisdic- 
tion in  all  cases  of  law  and  equity,  they  certainly  are  not  fit  for  that  duty  in  a  very 
large  portion  of  the  State ;  though  it  may  be  otherwise  in  some  few  counties  and 
cities,  but  in  general  they  are  very  unfit  to  exercise  chancery  or  common  law  jurisdic- 
tion. They  are  perfectly  incompetent  to  decide  long  and  complicated  chancery 
causes,  with  voluminous  documents  and  intricate  accounts,  which  occupies  a  court 
two  or  three  days  ;  and  it  has  happened,  that  there  has  not  been  on  the  bench  a  single 
justice  when  the  decree  was  pronounced,  that  was  there  when  the  cause  was  opened  : 
the  case  often  happens  in  the  trials  of  causes  at  common  law,  where  the  law  is  not 
very  clear,  and  the  subject  in  demand  is  of  great  value.  Sir,  you  give  them  the 
authority  to  decree  and  render  judgment  in  matters  of  great  importance,  but  you 
cannot  give  them  the  ability  to  discharge  these  duties  correctly. 

The  dockets  of  these  courts  heretofore,  have  been  so  neglected,  they  became  so 
crowded  with  causes,  that  to  enter  a  suit  was  a  denial  of  justice ;  and  they  are  not 
much  better  now.  To  remedy  this  evil,  the  General  Assembly  abolished  the  High 
Court  of  Chancery,  and  nine  District  Courts  of  Chancery  have  been  created  to  make 
it  convenient  for  the  parties  to  leave  the  county  and  go  into  these  courts.  The  Dis- 
trict Courts  of  Common  Law,  which  were  the  best  that  were  ever  established  in  Vir- 
ginia, held  by  two  Judges,  and  they  every  term  exchanging  circuits,  with  other 
Judges  of  the  General  Court,  for  the  same  reason  were  abolished,  and  a  Superior 
Court  of  Common  Law  was  created  in  each  county  to  take  the  business  from  these 
incompetent  tribunals,  the  County  Courts.  And  you  now  have  twelve  terms  of  the 
County  Coui't,  and  two  terms  of  the  Superior  Court  of  Law,  every  year  in  each 
county,  small  and  great.  If,  Sir,  the  County  Court  could  be  abolished,  the  Superior 
Court  of  Law  would  soon  follow  its  fate.  I  rejoice,  that  I  voted  against  the  estab- 
lishment of  the  Superior  Court  of  Law,  in  1808,  but  it  passed  the  Senate  ten  to  nine 
votes  :  a  court  composed  of  one  Judge,  and  he  confined  to  his  circuit:  this  court,  the 
offspring  of  the  County  Courts,  is  not  a  favourite  of  the  people.  Abolish  both  these 
Courts,  for  be  assured  both  greatly  aided  in  the  call  of  this  Convention,  and  place  in 
their  stead,  tribunals  of  justice  that  will  demand  (which  they  will  be  certain  to  do  if 
they  merit  it,)  the  affection  and  confidence  of  the  people.  I  know.  Sir,  this  court  of 
one  Judge  is,  by  the  report  of  the  Committee,  left  subject  to  legislative  controul,  and 
it  seems  to  be  the  expectation  and  wish  of  a  majority  of  the  Convention,  that  the 
first  Legislature  which  shall  assemble  under  the  Constitution  we  are  endeavouring  to 
make,  will  reform  these  Superior  Courts  of  Law  of  each  county.  Let  this  Conven- 
tion not  do  their  business  by  halves.  You  cannot  effectually  reform  the  County  Su- 
perior Courts,  without  at  the  same  time  having  under  advisement  the  County  Courts; 
they  are  very  much  united  together.  And  let  both  be  under  the  guardianship  of  the 
General  Assembly. 

Some  gentlemen  most  highly  approve  of  the  County  Court  system,  because  they 
say  justice  is  administered  cheap,  and  the  saving  of  expense  to  the  people  is  great.  I 
believe  the  people  will  not  thank  them  for  thus  taking  care  of  their  expenses  on  this 
occasion,  for,  so  far  is  this  from  being  the  case,  that  my  experience  convinces  me  that 
it  is  most  expensive  and  most  oppressive  not  only  to  suitors,  but  to  all  others  having 
any  business  in  these  courts,  and  constituted  as  they  now  are,  with  all  their  multifa- 
rious duties  and  powers,  every  man  is  compelled  occasionally  to  attend  them  upon 
business  other  than  that  of  litigation.  Thus  it  is,  that  those  persons  who  must  re- 
sort to  them  upon  other  than  contested  cases,  have  often  to  attend  two  or  three  days 
before  they  can  get  their  business  done  ;  and  the  suitors  are  postponed  from  day  to 
day,  from  court  to  court,  for  years  before  they  can  get  a  trial  of  their  causes  ;  the  daily 
expenses,  the  loss  of  time  to  suitors  and  their  witnesses,  exclusive  of  costs  of  attor- 
nies,  sheriffs  and  clerk's  fees,  are  more  than  the  subject  of  controversy  is  often  worth, 
and  in  fact,  it  is  sometimes  better  for  a  man  to  give  up  a  demand  of  one  hundred 
dollars,  however  plain  his  demand  may  be,  than  to  resort  to  those  courts,  miscalled 
courts  of  justice,  administering  the  uncertainty  of  the  law. 

Mr.  Marshall  rose  in  opposition.  The  question  now  before  the  Committee  is  substan- 
tially the  question,  whether  the  County  Courts  shall  contmue  to  exist  or  not.  Any  ob- 
jection to  the  details  of  the  system  is  not  sufficient,  to  induce  us  to  strike  out  the 
clause  which  is  the  subject  of  the  present  motion.  If  the  jurisdiction  of  these  courts 
is  considered  as  defective,  let  the  system  be  so  modified,  as  to  make  their  jurisdiction 
more  perfect.  The  matter  is  perfectly  open,  and  will  continue  to  be  perfectly  open,  if 
this  clause  is  permitted  to  stand.  If  the  motion  succeeds,  either  the  County  Courts 
must  be  abandoned,  or  the  article  modified.  The  article,  as  it  stands,  purports  to  enu- 
merate all  the  courts,  in  which  the  judicial  power  of  the  Commonwealth  is  to  be 
vested.  County  Courts  form  one  of  these  depositories.  If  we  expunge  County  Courts 
from  this  fist,  we  shall  virtually  deny  to  them  any  part  of  the  judicial  power  of  the 
State :  it  follows,  that  no  objection  to  the  jurisdiction  of  those  courts  as  at  present  ex- 
ercised, ought  to  induce  us  to  consent  to  the  proposed  amendment,  unless  it  is  our 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


505 


purpose  that  County  Courts  shall  not  continue  to  constitute  any  part  of  our  Judiciary 
system.  The  article,  as  it  now  stands,  leaves  the  whole  subject  open  to  the  Legislature. 
They  may  limit  or  abridge  the  jurisdiction  of  all  the  courts  as  they  please.  If  the  Legis- 
lature choose  to  give  them  all  Chancery  jurisdiction,  or  if  they  shall  think  fit,  to  limit 
their  jurisdiction  in  common  law  cases  to  a  specific  sum,  the  Legislature  can  do  so.  The 
whole  subject  of  jurisdiction  is  submitted,  absolutely  and  without  qualification,  to  the 
power  of  the  Legislature.  The  only  effect  therefore  of  the  amendment  will  be,  to  abolish 
the  County  Courts.  Is  the  Committee  prepared  for  this.?  I  certainly  am  not.  The 
County  Courts  may  be  for  some  causes,  an  ill  organized  tribunal.  It  may  be,  for  in- 
stance, unfit  for  Chancery  jurisdiction:  but  that  is  no  reason  why  such  courts  should 
not  exist.  We  luust  have  a  County  Court  of  some  kind:  its  abolition  will  affect  our 
whole  internal  police.  I  am  not  in  the  habit  of  bestowing  extravagant  eulogies  upon 
my  countrymen.  I  would  rather  hear  them  pronounced  by  others :  but  it  is  a  truth,  that 
no  State  in  the  Union,  has  hitherto  enjoj-ed  more  complete  internal  quiet  than  Virginia. 
There  is  no  part  of  America,  where  less  disquiet  and  less  of  ill-feeling  between  man 
and  man  is  to  be  found  than  in  this  Commonwealth,  and  I  believe  most  firmly  that  this 
state  of  things  is  mainly  to  be  ascribed  to  the  practical  operation  of  our  County  Courts. 
The  magistrates  who  compose  those  courts,  consist  in  general  of  the  best  men  in 
their  respective  counties.  They  act  in  the  spirit  of  peace-makers,  and  allay,  rather 
than  excite  the  small  disputes  and  differences  which  will  sometimes  arise  among  neigh- 
bours. It  is  certainly  much  owing  to  this,  that  so  much  harmony  prevails  amongst 
us.  These  courts  must  be  preserved:  if  we  part  with  them,  can  we  be  sure  that  we 
shall  retain  among  out'  justices  of  the  peace  the  same  respectability  and  .weight  of 
character  as  are  now  to  be  found  ?  I  think  not.  But  my  main  object  in  rising,  was 
to  remind  the  Committee  that  there  was  no  need  of  striking  out  the  clause,  if  all  we 
seek  is  some  change  in  the  jurisdiction  of  the  courts. 
Mr.  Jovnes  spoke  in  substance  as  follows: 

Mr.  Chairman, — In  rising  to  support  the  motion  of  my  colleague  to  strike  out 
"  County  Courts,"  from  the  first  paragraph  of  the  first  resolution  reported  by  the  Com- 
mittee on  the  Judicial  Department  of  the  Government.  I  regret,  that  I  am  under  the 
necessity  of  endeavouring  to  sustain  an  opinion,  contrary  to  that  which  has  just  been 
expressed  by  the  venerable  gentleman  from  Richmond,  (Chief  Justice  Marshall). 
The  opinions  of  that  gentleman  are  entitled  to  great  weight  not  only  in  this  Convei>- 
tion,  but  throughout  the  United  States,  on  every  subject  on  which  his  opinions  are  ex- 
pressed;  and,  I  am  sure  there  is  no  man  who  feels  more  respect  for  those  opinions 
than  the  humble  individual  who  now  addresses  you.  But  in  political  matters  I  cannot 
feel  such  a  high  respect  for  the  opinions  of  any  man,  however  exalted  by  character  or 
talents,  as  iiuplicitly  to  adopt  his  opinions.  I  will  attentively  and  respectfully  listen 
to  the  arguments  of  those  who  differ  from  me,  and  I  must  then  decide  according  to 
the  honest  dictates  of  my  own  judgment,  humble  as  it  may  be,  on  a  view  of  the  whole 
ground. 

-  .The  gentleman  from  Richmond  has  told  the  Committee,  that  if  the  motion  to  strike 
out  County  Courts  from  the  first  resolution  reported  by  the  Judicial  Committee  be  sus- 
tained by  the  vote  of  the  Convention,  it  will  totally  destroy  the  County  Courts;  but 
with  all  my  respect  for  such  high  authority,  I  cannot  so  understand  the  effect  of  sustain- 
ing the  motion  of  my  colleague.  The  first  paragraph  of  the  first  resolution  reported 
by  the  Judicial  Committee  is  in  these  words,  "  R.esolved,  that  the  Judicial  power  shall 
be  vested  in  a  Court  of  Appeals,  in  such  inferior  courts  as  the  Legislature  shall  from 
time  to  time  ordain  and  establish,  and  in  the  County  Courts."  The  motion  is  to  strike 
out  County  Courts,  and  notwithstanding  all  my  respect  for  the  contrary  opinion  ex- 
pressed by  the  Chief  Justice,  I  cannot  avoid  the  conclusion,  that  if  tlie  motion  to  strike 
out  County  Courts  prevail,  it  will  still  be  entirely  competent  to  the  Legislature,  if  they 
think  jJroper  to  do  so,  to  retain  the  County  Courts  precisely  as  they  are  now  organized, 
and  to  confer  upon  them  precisely  the  same  powers  now  conferred  upon  them  by  law. 
If  the  report  of  the  Judicial  Committee  be  adopted,  the  existence  of  the  County 
Courts  as  noio  organized,  will,  forever,  be  placed  entirely  beyond  the  reach  of  legisla- 
tion; whereas,if  they  be  stricken  out  of  the  report,  they  will  not  be  thereby  abolished, 
but  will  be  subjected  to  the  power  of  the  Legislature,  who  may  continue  them  or  not, 
or  change  their  organization  as  past  or  future  experience  may  render  necessary. 

In  supporting  the  motion  to  strike  out  County  Courts  from  the  report  of  the  Com- 
mittee, I  am  not  actuated  by  any  wish  to  destroy  those  courts;  very  far  from  it;  I 
think  it  would  be  unwise  either  to  destroy  or  retain  them  by  Constitutional  sanction ; 
but  my  wish  is  to  subject  them,  and  all  the  other  Judicial  tribunals  of  the  Common- 
wealth, to  the  unlimited  control  of  the  Legislative  power,  which  may  from  time  to 
time  establish,  modify,  or  abolish  them,  as  experience  may  render  advisable.  Great 
inconvenience  has  been  heretofore  experienced  in  this  Commonwealth  under  the  old 
Constitution,  from  Judges  of  the  General  Court  and  Judges  in  Chancery  being  named 
in  the  Constitution  ;  and  which  has  been  generally  so  construed  as  to  prevent  the  Le- 
gislature from  conferring  Chancery  powers  on  Judges  of  the  General  Court.    It  is  my 

64 


506 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTIOH. 


wish  to  leave  the  Legislature  uncontrolled  power  to  act  on  the  subject  from  time  t& 
time  as  the  public  good  may  require. 

I  have  the  authority  of  the  gentleman  from  Richmond,  himself,  for  saying,  that  the 
Constitution  ought  not  to  go  too  much  into  detail ;  but  that  only  general  principles 
should  be  established  in  the  Constitution,  and  it  should  be  left  to  the  Legislature  to 
act  upon  those  principles  and  carry  them  out  in  organizing  the  Government  under 
the  Constitution.  The  Constitution  of  the  United  States  declares,  that  "  the  Judicial 
power  of  the  United  States  shall  be  vested  in  one  Supreme  Court,  and  in  such  inferior 
courts  as  the  Congress  may,  from  time  to  time,  ordain  and  establish,"  and  under  that 
Constitution  it  has  been  found  necessary  at  different  times  to  change  the  organization 
of  the  courts.  I  wish  to  give  similar  powers  to  the  Legislature  over  the  courts  of 
Virginia ;  and  my  objection  to  the  report  of  the  Judicial  Committee  is,  that  the  County 
Courts,  as  at  present  organized,  are  proposed  to  be  retained  in  all  future  time  and  un- 
der all  possible  circumstances,  whatever  may  be  the  opinion  of  the  Legislature  or  of 
the  people  on  the  subject,  founded  upon  the  experience  of  past  and  future  times.  The 
County  Courts  maij  be  necessary  and  proper  tribunals  now,  and  might  hereafter  be 
rendered  unnecessary  or  improper,  by  a  different  organization  of  the  courts  of  the 
Commonwealth,  or  by  a  change  in  the  opinions  of  the  people  relative  to  those  courts. 

Under  the  present  organization  of  the  courts  of  the  Commonwealth,  we  have  Su- 
perior Courts  of  Chancery  and  Superior  Courts  of  Law ;  and  I  imagine  gentlemen 
will  agree  that  those  courts  are  as  necessary  as  County  Courts — and  if  it  be  necessary 
to  retain  County  Courts  in  the  Constitution,  so  as  to  render  them  independent  of  Le- 
gislative control,  why  not  also  retain  Superior  Courts  of  Chancery  and  Common  Law 
by  Constitutional  sanction  ?  I  can  see  no  reason  to  retain  the  one  any  more  than  the 
other  in  the  Constitution.  If  it  be  safe  to  trust  the  Legislature  with  control  over  the 
one,  it  appears  to  me  that  they  may  be  safely  trusted  with  control  over  the  other.  If 
County  Courts  be  stricken  out  of  the  resolution,  will  they  thereby  be  abolished  any 
more  than  Superior  Courts  of  Law  and  Chancery,  which  are  not  enumerated  in  the 
resolution?  By  striking  out  County  Courts  from  the  resolution,  they,  as  well  as  the 
other  courts  will  stand  precisely  upon  the  same  footing,  and  will  be  continued  or 
abolished  as  in  the  wisdom  of  the  Legislature  may  seem  best ;  and  if  the  County 
Courts  possess  the  confidence  of  the  people  in  the  State  generally,  we  may  safely  rely 
on  their  being  continued  by  the  Legislature ;  and  if  they  have  not  that  confidence, 
they  ought  not  to  be  continued. 

The  report  of  the  Judicial  Committee  proposes  to  leave  the  powers  and  j  urisdiction 
of  the  different  courts  to  be  regulated  by  law — and  if  it  be  prudent  to  give  to  the  Le- 
gislature unlimited  control  over  the  organization  of  all  other  courts,  and  over  the  ju- 
ristliction  and  'poivers  of  the  County  Courts,  as  well  as  th-e  other  courts  of  the  State, 
where  can  be  the  necessity  of  retaining  the  County  Courts,  eo  noniine  in  the  Consti- 
tution.? As  the  resolution  now  stands,  the  County  Courts  are  to  be  retained  at  all 
events,  and  yet  the  Legislature  may  take  away  all  the  powers  and  jurisdiction  con- 
ferred upon  them  by  law. 

The  gentleman  from  Richmond  tells  us,  that  he  is  not  in  the  habit  of  bestowing  en- 
comiums on  his  countrymen,  but  that  he  will  say,  that  he  believes  that  no  people  in 
the  United  States  enjoy  more  internal  tranquillity  and  quiet  than  the  people  of  Vir- 
ginia, and  that  he  believes  that  this  is  owing,  in  a  very  great  degree,  to  the  justices  of  the 
County  Courts  who  are  the  great  peace-makers  of  the  country.  I  have  no  doubt,  Sir,  of 
the  fact,  that  the  internal  peace  and  tranquillity  of  society  depend  more  upon  the  jus- 
tices of  the  peace,  than  upon  all  the  other  officers  of  the  Commonwealth  together — and 
I  have  as  much  confidence  in  the  justice  and  impartiality  of  these  courts,  as  any  man  in 
the  Convention.  My  connexion  with  these  courts  has  been  intimate  for  twenty  years 
past,  and  there  are  no  tribunals  in  the  State  in  whose  justice  and  iritegrity  I  have 
more  confidence.  But,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  equal  confidence  in  the  Superior 
Courts  of  Chancery  and  Law,  and,  I  would  as  soon  retain  them  as  the  County  Courts 
by  Constitutional  sanction.  If  it  be  unwise  to  trust  the  County  Courts  to  the  power 
of  the  Legislature  merely  because  we  have  confidence  in  those  courts,  the  same  rea- 
son will  apply  with  equal  force  to  the  Superior  Courts  of  Law  and  Chancery.  If  we 
cannot  trust  the  Legislature,  let  us  go  on  to  designate  by  name,  all  the  courts  which 
shall  be  established  in  Virginia  in  all  future  time  ;  and  let  us  also  fix  and  establish 
their  several  powers  and  jurisdictions.  While,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  willingly  and  un- 
hesitatingly bear  testimony,  with  the  venerable  gentleman  from  Richmond,  to  the  iji- 
tegrity  and  impartiality  of  the  County  Court  magistrates,  permit  me  to  say,  that  I  con- 
sider tlLeir  mode  of  aptpointment  as  entirely  opposed  to  the  principles  of  our  Govern- 
ment. In  the  second  section  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  it  is  declared,  "  that  all  power  is 
vested  in  and  consequently  derived  from  the  people."  Although  this  principle  jnay  be 
carried  into  practice  as  to  all  the  other  officers  of  the  State,  yet  it  is  totally  disregarded 
in  the  mode  of  appointing  County  Court  magistrates.  Instead  of  justices  of  the  peace 
in  Virginia  deriving  their  powers  from  the  people,  they  are  totally  independent  of  the 
people  for  their  appointment  to,  or  continuance  in  office.   The  justices  appointed  un 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONYENTIOX. 


607 


der  the  Regal  Government  before  the  Revolution,  were  continued  in  office,  and  they 
have  continued  to  supply  vacancies  in  their  own  body  as  completely  independent  of 
the  people  of  Virginia  as  is  the  Autocrat  of  all  the  Russias.  I  know  that  many  justices 
of  the  peace,  themselves,  consider  their  mode  of  appointment  as  highly  objectionable, 
and  they  would  wilhngly  see  a  different  mode  adopted  for  the  future. 

I  am  aware  of  the  difficulty  and  perhaps  impossibility  of  suggesting  any  mode  of  ap- 
pointing justices  of  the  peace  different  from  tlie  mode  prescribed  in  the  Old  Constitu- 
tion, which  would  be  acceptable  to  a  majority  of  this  Convention — and,  perhaps,  it 
would  be  best  to  leave  that  matter  entirely  to  the  Legislature  :  and  if  any  mode  of  ap- 
pointment were  adopted  by  the  Legislature  which  was  found  not  to  answer  well  in 
practice,  the  present  method  could  be  restored,  or  such  other  adopted  as  tlie  wisdom 
of  the  Legislature  might  suorgest:  whereas,  a  mode  of  appointment  prescribed  hi  the 
Constitution  could  not  be  altered  by  Legislative  enactment.  The  mode  of  appointing 
Sheriffs  seems  to  be  so  nearly  connected  with  the  County  Court  system,  that  if  one 
be  referred  to  Legislative  control,  it  would,  probably,  be  best  to  refer  the  other  to  the 
same  power.  If  justices  of  the  peace  are  to  be  appointed  and  compensated  as  at  pre- 
sent, as  a  matter  of  course,  the  appointment  of  Sheriffs  must  devolve  on  them;  but  if 
a  different  mode  of  appointing  and  compensating  justices  of  the  peace  be  adopted 
either  in  the  Constitution  or  by  law,  then  the  Sheriffs  ought  to  be  elected  by  the 
people;  and  it  would,  probably,  be  hest,  under  existing  circumstances,  \o  confide  the 
whole  matter  to  the  Legislature,  who  might  from  time  to  time  change  any  regulations 
which  miofht  be  adopted  as  experience  might  prove  to  be  necessary  on  both  subjects. 

Mr.  P.  2.  Barbour  rose,  not  to  enter  into  an  argument,  but  to  add  a  word  of  testi- 
mony as  to  the  practical  effects  of  the  County  Court  system.  I  have  practised  in  these 
courts  for  a  quarter  of  a  century,  and  I  can  say  with  the  utmost  truth,  that  my  confi- 
dence in  them  has  grown  with  my  growth,  and  strengthened  with  my  strength.  Af- 
ter a  twenty-five  years'  acquaintance  with  the  County  Courts  of  Virginia,  it  is  my  con- 
scientious opinion  that  there  is  not,  and  never  has  been  a  tribunal  under  the  Sun, 
where  more  substantial  practical  justice  is  administered.  I  am  for  giving  them  a  Con- 
stitutional foothold  in  the  Commonwealth,  above  the  control  of  tSe  Legislature  :  for 
myself,  I  would  sooner  part  with  any  other  department  of  the  Government :  I  look  to 
our  County  Courts  as  tabula  in  nmufragio.  The  gentleman  from  Richmond  asks,  whe- 
ther we  can  expect  that  our  justices  will  have  the  same  respectability  and  weight  of 
character,  if  these  courts  shall  be  abolished  ?  I  answer  promptly  in  the  negative.  As 
lonof  as  the  County  Courts  continue  to  exist,  not  only  our  most  intelligent  and  re- 
spectable citizens  will  go  upon  tlie  bench,  buttliose  courts  will  bring  before  them  such 
varied  discussions  of  law  points,  as  will  materially  contribute  towards  enabling  them 
the  better  to  discharge  the  duties  of  their  station;  and  these  discussions  are  connected 
with  those  courts  mainly  by  the  respectability  of  the  Judges  and  the  extent  of  their 
jurisdiction.  The  idea  was  suggested  to  me  fifteen  years  ago  by  one  of  the  most  dis- 
tincfuished  men  we  ever  had  among  us ;  who  declared  it  to  me  as  his  own  belief,  that 
the"County  Courts  of  Virginia  exerted  an  important  pohtical  influence  upon  her  popu- 
lation. The  monthly  meeting  of  neigiibours  and  of  professional  men,  caused  the  peo- 
ple to  mingle  and  associate  more  than  they  otherwise  would  do,  and  produced  a  dis- 
cussion of  topics  of  public  interest  in  regard  to  the  administration  of  Government, 
and  the  politics  of  the  community.  These  meetings  perpetually  recurring  in  all  the 
counties  of  the  State,  constitute  so  many  points  from  which  political  information  was 
thus  diffused  among  the  people,  and  their  interest  increased  in  public  affairs.  Mr.  B. 
concluded  by  observing  that  he  had  not  risen  to  argue,  but  merely  to  bear  liis  testi- 
mony to  the  importance  and  value  of  the  County  Courts,  and  to  express  his  hope  that 
they  would  be  permitted  to  continue. 

Mr.  Bayly  said,  he  was  well  aware  that  any  observations  which  he  should  offer 
would  be  of  no  avail  ao-ainst  the  name  and  influence  of  the  venerable  and  worthy  gen- 
tleman from  Richmond,  (C^ief  Justice  Marshall.)  or  the  learned  gentleman  from 
Orange,  (Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour.)  But  he  would  refer,  as  authority,  to  the  opinion  of  a 
man,  as  great  as  either  of  these  gentlemen,  who  held  a  very  difterent  sentiment  upon 
this  subject,  and  was  directly  in  opposition  to  them :  their  opponent  was  Mr.  Jeffer- 
son. The  gentleman  from  Richmond  had  not  mixed  as  much  in  society  with  the  citi- 
zens from  different  parts  of  the  State,  as  !Mr.  Jefferson  had  done.  He  had  spent  the 
greater  part  of  his  life  in  Richmond  and  in  other  cities  ;  and  his  attention  had,  during 
that  time,  been  drawn  to  higher  and  more  important  concerns  than  the  business  of 
County  Courts.  Mr.  Bayly  said,  he  had  very  gfreat  confidence  in  the  opinions  of  the 
gentleman  upon  every  subject  where  he  had  the  opportunity^  by  experience,  to  com- 
mand the  facts  on  which  he  founded  them.  But  Mr.  Jefferson  had  been  a  personal 
witness  to  the  operation  of  the  County  Court  system;  he  was  a  justice  of  the  peace 
for  the  county  where  he  resided,  remote  from  the  cities  or  places  for  holding  the 
higher  Courts  of  the  State ;  he  knew  and  had  experienced  tlie  bad  effects  of  the  County 
Court  system.  In  the  fourth  volume  of  his  writings,  pubhshed  since  his  death,  is  a. 
letter  to"  Samuel  Kerchival,  dated  IMonticello,  July  19, 1616. 


503 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


A  part  of  which  I  will  read : 
The  justices  of  the  Inferior  Courts  are  self-chosen,  are  for  life,  and  perpetuate 
their  own  body  in  succession  forever,  so  that  a  faction  once  possessing  themselves  of 
the  bench  of  a  county,  can  never  be  broken  up,  but  hold  their  county  in  chains,  for- 
ever indissoluble.  Yet  these  justices  are  the  real  Executive  as  well  as  Judiciary,  in 
all  our  minor  and  most  ordinary  concerns.  They  tax  us  at  will ;  fill  the  office  of 
sherifl",  the  most  important  of  all  the  Executive  officers  of  the  county;  name  nearly 
all  our  military  leaders,  which  leaders,  once  named,  are  removable  but  by  themselves. 
The  juries,  our  judges  of  all  fact,  and  of  law  when  they  choose  it,  are  not  selected 
by  the  people,  nor  amenable  to  them.  They  are  chosen  by  an  officer  named  by  the 
court  and  Executive.  Chosen,  did  I  say Picked  up  by  the  sheriff  from  the  loung- 
ings  of  the  court  yard,  after  every  thing  respectable  has  retired  from  it.  Where  then 
is  our  republicanism  to  be  found  ?  Not  in  our  Constitution  certainly,  but  merely  in 
the  spirit  of  our  people.  That  would  oblige  even  a  despot  to  govern  us  republicanly. 
Owing  to  this  spirit,  and  to  nothing  in  the  form  of  our  Constitution,  all  things  have 
gone  well.  But  this  fact,  so  triumphantly  misquoted  by  the  enemies  of  reformation, 
is  not  the  fruit  of  our  Constitution,  but  has  prevailed  in  spite  of  it.  Our  functionaries 
have  done  well,  because  generally  honest  men.  If  any  were  not  sOj  they  feared  to 
shew  it. 

"  But  it  will  be  said,  it  is  easier  to  find  faults  than  to  amend  them.  I  do  not  think 
their  amendment  so  difficult  as  is  pretended.  Only  lay  down  true  principles,  and  ad- 
here to  them  inflexibly.  Do  not  be  frightened  into  their  surrender  by  the  alarms  of 
the  timid,  or  the  croakings  of  wealth  against  the  ascendancy  of  the  people. 

"  The  organization  of  our  county  administrations  may  be  thought  more  difficult. 
But  follow  principle,  and  the  knot  unties  itself.  Divide  the  counties  into  wards  of 
such  size  as  that  every  citizen  can  attend  when  called  on,  and  act  in  person.  Ascribe 
to  them  the  government  of  their  wards  in  all  things  relating  to  themselves  exclusively. 
A  justice,  chosen  by  themselves,  in  each,  a  constable,  a  military  company,  a  patrol,  a 
school,  the  care  of  their  own  poor,  their  own  portion  of  the  public  roads,  the  choice 
of  one  or  more  jurors  to  serve  in  some  court,  and  the  delivery,  within  their  own 
wards,  of  their  own  votes  for  all  elective  officers  of  higher  sphere,  will  relieve  the 
county  administration  of  nearly  all  its  business,  wilWiave  it  better  done,  and  by  mak- 
ing every  citizen  an  acting  member  of  the  Government,  and  in  the  offices  nearest 
and  most  interesting  to  him,  will  attach  him  by  his  strongest  feelings  to  the  indepen- 
dence of  his  country,  and  its  republican  Constitution.  The  justices  thus  chosen  by 
every  ward,  would  constitute  the  County  Court,  would  do  its  judiciary  business,  di- 
rect roads  and  bridges,  levy  county  and  poor  rates,  and  administer  all  the  matters  of 
common  interest  to  the  whole  county.  These  wards,  called  townships  in  New  Eng- 
land, are  the  vital  principle  of  their  Governments,  and  have  proved  themselves  the 
wisest  invention  ever  devised  by  the  wit  of  man  for  the  perfect  exercise  of  self-gov- 
ernment, and  for  its  preservation.  We  should  thus  marshal  our  Government  into, 
first,  the  general  Federal  Republic,  for  all  concerns  foreign  and  Federal;  second,  that 
of  the  State,  for  what  relates  to  our  own  citizens  exclusively;  third,  the  county  re- 
publics, for  the  duties  and  concerns  of  the  county;  and  fourth,  the  ward  republics, 
for  the  small,  and  yet  numerous  and  interesting  concerns  of  the  neighbourhood  :  and 
in  Government,  as  well  as  in  every  other  business  of  life,  it  is  by  division  and  sub-di- 
vision of  duties  alone,  that  all  matters,  great  and  small,  can  be  managed  to  perfection. 
And  the  whole  is  cemented  by  giving  to  every  citizen,  personally,  a  part  in  the  ad- 
ministration of  the  public  affairs. 

The  smii  of  these  amendments  is,  first,  General  Suffrage.  Second,  Equal  repre- 
sentation in  the  Legislature.  Third,  An  Executive  chosen  by  the  people  Fourth, 
Judges  elective  or  amovable.  Fif9i,  Justices,  jurors  and  sheriffs  elective.  Sixth, 
Ward  divisions.    And  seventh,  Periodical  amendments  of  the  Constitution." 

In  the  same  book  is  a  letter  to  Col.  John  Taylor,  a  justice  of  the  peace  for  the 
county  of  Caroline,  dated  July  21,  1816. 

I  will  read  a  part :  ■ 

"  Nor,  I  believe,  do  we  differ  as  to  the  County  Courts.  I  acknowledge  the  value 
of  this  institution ;  that  it  is  in  truth  our  principal  executive  and  judiciary,  and  that 
it  does  much  for  little  pecuniary  reward.  It  is  their  self-appointment  I  wish  to  cor- 
rect ;  to  find  some  means  of  breaking  up  a  cabal,  when  such  a  one  gets  possession  of 
the  bench.  When  this  takes  place,  it  becomes  the  most  afflicting  of  tyrannies,  be- 
cause its  powers  are  so  various,  and  exercised  on  every  thing  most  immediately 
around  us.  And  how  many  instances  have  you  and  I  known  of  these  monopolies  of 
county  administration  !*  I  knew  a  county  in  v/hich  a  particular  family  (a  numerous 
one)  got  possession  of  the  bench,  and  for  a  whole  generation  never  admitted  a  man 
on  it  who  was  not  of  its  clan  or  connexion.  I  know  a  county  now  of  one  thousand 
and  five  hundred  militia,  of  which  sixty  are  federalists.  Its  court  is  of  thirty  mem- 
bers, of  whom  twenty  are  federalists,  (every  third  man  of  the  sect.)  There  are  large 
and  populous  districts  in  it,  without  a  justice,  because  without  a  federalist  for  appoint- 


DEBATES  OP  THE  CONVENTION. 


509 


ment:  the  militia  are  as  disproportionably  under  Federal  ofRcers.  And  there  is  no 
authority  on  earth  wiiich  can  break  up  this  junto,  short  of  a  general  Convention. 
The  remaining  one  thousand  four  hundred  and  forty,  free,  fighting  and  paying  citi- 
zens, are  governed  by  men  neither  of  their  choice  nor  confidence,  and  without  a  hope 
of  relief.  They  are  certainly  excluded  from  the  blessings  of  a  free  Government  for 
life,  and  indefinitely,  for  aught  the  Constitution  has  provided.  This  solecism  maybe 
called  any  thing  but  t^eputflican,  and  ought  undoubtedly  tQ,be  corrected." 

These  letters  were  written  about  the  time  of  the  first  meeting  of  Delegates  at 
Staunton,  to  promote  the  calling  of  a  Convention  to  reform  the  Constitution,  and  no 
doubt  had  its  influence  on  the  State,  in  effecting  and  promoting  the  meeting  of  this 
Assembly. 

Mr.  Bayly  said,  that  it  would  seem  that  this  patriotic  man  directed  his  attention 
and  scrutiny  into  every  corner  of  Virginia,  to  consider  and  discover  defects  in  the 
Constitution  requiring  amendments  that  would  render  the  condition  of  the  people 
more  prosperous  and  happy. 

What  is  it  that  I  propose  ?  To  abolish  the  County  Courts  ?  No  :  All  I  desire  at  this 
time,  is,  that  they  may  be  placed  under  Legislative  restraint  and  organization.  If  the 
Legislature  shall  say  that  the  County  Courts  shall  remain  precisely  as  they  are  for 
the  next  half  century,  they  will  have  the  authority;  but  if  at  any  period  to  come,  the 
bench  of  these  courts  shall  be  found  to  be  in  a  different  situation  from  what  at  pre- 
sent their  friends  wish  us  to  believe,  let  the  Legislature  of  your  country  have  the 
power  to  regulate  and  controul  them,  so  as  to  remedy  any  evils  which  may  arise  or 
which  have  arisen.  Give  them  power  to  break  up  this  monopoly  of  office  among 
family  connexions,  and  to  put  an  end  to  the  intrigues  by  which  it  has  been  effected. 

Mr.  Giles  said,  that  he  did  not  rise  to  make  a  speech,  (the  season  for  speech-making 
was  now  past,)  but  only  to  remind  gentlemen  of  one  thing  which  they  seemed  to 
have  forgot.  The  County  Court  system  formed  a  part  of  the  Constitution,  as  it  now 
existed.  What  was  it  now  proposed  to  do  ?  To  amend  the  Constitution  by  striking 
out  a  feature  which  it  now  coiitains  :  and  what  would  be  the  effect  of  such  an  opera- 
tion ?  Gentlemen  say  the  effect  will  be  not  to  destroy  the  County  Courts.  But  cer- 
tainly it  will  be  giving  a  very  broad  hint  to  the  Legislature  that  they  shall  destroy 
them,  yet  gentlemen  say,  oh  no,  that  they  do  not  wish  to  destroy  the  County  Courts. 
One  gentleman  has  furriished  us  with  a  variety  of  arguments  on  the  subject ;  but  I 
ask  this  Committee  whether  every  argument  he  used,  does  not  in  fact  go  to  the  abo- 
lition of  these  courts.  If  his  arguments  are  well  founded,  the  courts  ought  to  be 
abolished.  The  gentleman  has  introduced  the  opinions  of  Mr.  Jefferson.  I  respect 
Mr.  Jefferson's  opinions  very  highly,  but  I  confess  I  was  not  a  little  astonished  to  see 
the  quarter  from  which  the  opinions  of  that  gentleman  are  now  urged  upon  this  As- 
sembly. Sir,  it  is  something  anomalous  that  this  should  come  from  gentlemen  who 
tell  us  that  they  have  no  respect,  and  never  had,  for  his  political  opinions. 

Here  Mr.  Bayly  interposed.  I  do  not  know  whether  the  gentleman  means  me, 
but  I  shall  ask  him  whether  he  does. 

Mr.  Giles  resumed.  I  had  no  special  reference  to  that  gentleman,  yet,  as  I  un- 
derstand that  he  disagrees  with  Mr.  Jefferson  generally,  I  include  him  with  others. 
We  are  told  that  Mr.  Jefferson  made  a  great  discovery,  viz:  that  this  is  not  a  Repub- 
lican Government.  Mr.  Jefferson  was  certainly  a  highly  respectable  man,  but  as  we 
all  know,  he  dealt  very  much  in  theories.  He  allows  that  the  spirit  of  the  people  is 
republican  in  a  high  degree,  yet  the  people  have  sustained  this  Government:  and 
whence  I  ask  is  this  republican  spirit  of  the  people  derived  ?  I  say,  they  have  derived 
it  from  their  Government ;  and  more  especially  to  that  feature  of  it  which  relates 
to  the  County  Courts.  Going  extensively  into  theories,  sometimes  deprives  us  of  a 
knowledge  of  facts :  all  acknowledge  that  the  County  Courts  are  of  great  impor- 
tance. The  gentleman  from  Accomac  moves  to  strike  them  out  of  the  Constitution, 
and  in  the  next  breath  he  tells  us,  that  he  does  not  wish  to  see  them  abolished.  To 
say  the  least,  he  puts  their  existence  at  imminent  hazard.  He  will  not  destroy  the 
courts  ;  but  he  will  leave  them  almost  to  the  winds,  and  will  himself  give  them  a  pretty 
good  breeze  to  begin  with.  Yet  they  are  parts  of  our  political  system  now,  and  the 
reasons  for  which  he  asks  us  to  strike  them  out  of  tlie  Constitution  are  such  as  go  to 
justify  their  entire  abolition. 

Sir,  I  believe  that  our  Government  is  Republican,  though  it  does  not  draw  that  ex- 
act line  of  separation  between  the  departments  which  is  held  by  some  to  be  essential 
to  republicanism.  Sir,  it  is  impossible  in  practice  to  do  this,  and  I  look  upon  the  doc- 
trines which  have  been  advanced  by  some,  on  that  subject,  as  beautiful  visions,  but 
as  visions  only.  There  never  yet  was  a  Government,  where  the  Legislative,  Execu- 
tive and  Judicial  Departments  were  kept  perfectly  and  absolutely  distinct.  Some 
have  maintained,  that  in  the  Government  of  the  United  States  this  end  has  been  ef- 
fected, but  there  never  was  a  greater  mistake.  The  Federal  Government  is  a  com- 
plete mixture,  a  perfect  Omnium  Gatherum.  The  Executive  is  a  unit,  but  he  has  the 
controul  of  every  law,  provided  he  can  get  one  more  vote  than  one-third  of  both 


610  ^ 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Houses.  And  what  is  the  Senate  ?  It  is  a  co-ordinate  branch  of  the  Legislative  De- 
partment in  all  but  money  bills,  and  in  yet  in  another  aspect  of  it,  the  Senate  is  an 
essential  part  of  the  Executive  Department.  It  has  a  check  upon  all  the  nominations 
of  the  President,  and  its  consent  is  essential  to  the  validity  of  all  treaties ;  while  in 
yet  another  view  of  it,  that  same  body  is  a  Judicial  tribunal  in  the  highest  resort.  It 
has  to  decide  on  the  impeachment  of  the  greatest  officers  in  the  States.  I  did  myself 
sit  -as  a  Judge  in  that  body.  To  insist  then,  on  the  utter  Reparation  of  the  different 
departments  is  to  follow  an  ignis  fatuus,  to  run  after  visions,  while  we  have  experience 
for  a  guide,  which  is  the  best  test  of  wisdom.  Can  this  proceed  from  any  thing  but 
the  love  of  change.?  A  determination  to  take  whatever  we  can  pick  up,  and  if  it 
does  not  answer,  to  strike  it  down  and  substitute  something  else.?  What  can  be  the 
effect  of  such  a  course  but  to  produce  public  agitation .?  To  destroy  that  quiet  which 
has  been  the  peculiar  blessing  of  Virginia.?  The  State,  as  we  all  believe,  has  some 
celebrity  :  there  is  such  a  thing  known  in  the  United  States  as  the  Virginia  character, 
"Whence  has  it  been  derived .?  From  our  Government ;  from  the  happy  operation  of 
those  fundamental  laws  under  which  we  have  lived  and  prospered  for  fifty-four  years. 
Should  we  continue  for  fifty-four  years  more  under  the  same  state  of  things,  we  shall 
become  yet  more  distinguished  than  we  now  are  :  but  once  strike  down  these  bul- 
warks of  the  public  peace  and  happiness,  and  nothing  will  ever  be  heard  again  of  the 
Virginia  character.  Rely  upon  it,  that  character  goes  with  your  Government.  It 
will  not  exist  a  moment  after  that  shall  have  been  prostrated.  Your  fate  is  inevitable, 
the  causes  which  urge  it  on  are  irresistible.  Once  commence  this  downward  course 
and  you  will  infallibly  go  on,  till  every  vestige  of  your  former  greatness  shall  be  for- 
ever effaced.  There  is  nothing  in  this  Virginia  character  but  a  regard  to  morality, 
public  and  private.  This  it  is  that  has  won  you  the  respect  you  enjoy.  It  is  this 
which  makes  men  who  are  bargaining  and  trafficing  in  Congress,  say  to  each  other, 
It  is  no  use  to  go  to  him :  he  is  a  Virginian.  Sir,  the  proposition  before  you  hazards 
much,  and  we  shall  not  be  acting  with  coolness  and  deliberation,  if  we  consent  even 
to  put  at  hazard  political  blessings  so  great  as  those  we  now  enjoy.  Let  us  not  be 
persuaded  to  do  this,  by  gentlemen  who  cry  up  a  system  to  the  skies,  and  then  pro- 
pose a  measure  which  insures  its  destruction. 

Mr.  Bayly  rose  in  reply  to  Mr.  Giles,  and  said,  I  never  believed  that  either  a  young 
or  an  old  man  ought  to  follow  the  opinions  of  others,  unless  he  approved  of  them,  and 
I  did  not  suppose  that,  that  gentleman,  (Mr.  Giles)  ought  to  object  to  any  member  of 
this  Committee  introducing  Mr.  Jefferson  as  authority  to  support  a  motion  upon  a 
subject  where  he  had  expressed  an  opinion  directly  in  point.  JNor  did  I  believe  it  was 
absolutely  necessary  for  a  man  to  agree  in  every  sentiment,  opinion  or  measure  of  po- 
licy of  an  author,  before  he  should  be  allowed  to  refer  to  them  in  debate,  as  worthy  of 
consideration.  If,  however,  this  new  rule  should  be  binding  upon  all,  I  might  point 
to  a  gentleman  who  would  be  deprived  of  the  right  to  use  as  authority  the  writings  of 
any  American  statesman,  because  he  never  agreed  with  any.  The  time  has  been,  and 
not  long  since,  when  not  only  the  opinions,  but  even  the  wishes  of  Mr.  Jefferson 
seemed  almost  to  control  the  public  sentiment  of  this  country,  and  they  yet  have  great 
respect  in  a  Virginia  Assembly. 

It  was  not  my  intention  to  have  read  to  the  Committee  any  part  of  this  book,  (Mr. 
Jefferson's  works,)  but  when  the  Chairman  of  the  Judiciary  Committee,  (the  Chief 
Justice  of  the  United  States,)  so  powerful  in  debate,  opposed  the  motion,  and  finding 
myself  in  opposition  to  him,  who  as  a  lawyer  and  Judge,  is  without  a  rival,  it  was  my 
duty  to  balance  the  great  weight  of  his  argument,  by  introducing  the  authority  of  Mr. 
Jefferson,  whose  opinions  precisely  meet  the  argument  of  the  gentleman  from  R,ich- 
mond.  I  ought  to  have  drawn  to  my  aid  so  great  and  influential  an  assistant  in  sup- 
port of  the  motion.  To  this,  the  gentleman  from  Amelia  has  such  strong  objections, 
because  he  says,  that  I  have  not  uniformly  been  an  admirer  of  Mr.  Jefferson's  opinions. 
Mr.  Chairman,  although  I  have  never  been  in  the  habit  of  continually  promulgating 
my  political  creed  and  schemes  by  pushing  them  upon  the  people  by  newspaper  essays, 
pamphlets  and  books,  lest  they  should  suspect  that  I  had  no  political  fixed  creed,  that 
did  not  change  with  the  times ;  yet  I  have  for  thirty  years,  obtained  the  approbation 
and  support  of  my  constituents,  who  are  of  all  parties,  because  my  sentiments  of  pub- 
lic men  and  measures,  have  never  been  concealed,  and  therefore,  there  was  no  neces- 
sity of  keeping  alive  party  names  for  party  purposes  and  for  private  interest,  by  such 
means.  I  always  distinguish  between  men,  measures  and  principles,  and  if  the  gen- 
tleman ever  heard  me  disparage  Mr.  Jefferson's  writings,  he  has  heard  what  never 
happened.  And  if  he  or  any  other  gentleman  ever  imagined  that  they  heard  me  speak 
of  that  man  in  any  manner,  or  on  any  occasion,  but  with  the  greatest  respect,  they 
have  heard  what  never  took  place.  From  early  youth  to  the  present  day,  his  writings 
ha  been  my  favourite  reading.  It  is  true  that  I  did  disapprove  of  the  repeal  of  the 
Judiciary  Law,  which  he  greatly  promoted,  because  I  believed  it  was  a  good  system 
and  ought  to  have  been  further  tried ;  and  no  better  system  has  yet  been  substituted. 
And  where  is  the  man  living  on  the  Eastern  Shore,  who  was  not  grieved  by  the  almost 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION; 


511 


fatal  blow  that  was  given  to  the  navy  and  commerce  of  the  country  during  his  admin- 
istration :  that  man  is  not  to  be  found.  But  for  the  purchase  of  Louisiana,  and  many 
others  of  his  acts,  I  was  numbered  among  his  friends,  which  the  Journal  of  the  Senate 
of  Viro-inia  from  1801  to  1809  will  show^  1  belong  to  that  class  of  politicians,  who 
stand  by  their  country  in  times  of  w^ar  and  great  danger.  The  gentleman  from  Ameha 
may  know,  that  in  the  gloomy  period  of  the  last  war,  when  it  was  necessary  for  every 
man  to  stand  by  the  Government,  that  I  was  not  found  united  to  a  faction  of  open 
enemies  or  pretended  friends  to  the  Administration,  to  destroy  it  and  degrade  the 
country.  I  united  my  cheerful  support  to  those  in  power,  to  bring  that  war  to  a  happy 
conclusion,  and  I  stood  by  my  post  until  that  was  accomplished. 

Mr.  Giles  observed  in  reply,  that  he  had  not  supposed  that  any  thing  he  had  said 
would  call  out  so  much  animation  on  the  part  of  the  gentleman.  When  speaking  of 
his  introduction  of  the  opinions  of  Mr.  Jefferson,  he  really  did  not  know  that  the  gen- 
tleman agreed  vvith  Mr.  Jefferson's  political  sentiments ;  he  had  always  underst'-  .d 
that  when  the  politicians  of  the  country  were  divided  into  Federalists  and  Republicans^ 
the  gentleman  had  always  ranked  as  a  Federalist,  and  Mr.  Jefferson  as  a  Republican. 

Mr.  Bayly  said,  that  the  gentleman  from  Amelia  was  peculiarly  fortunate  in  resi- 
ding in  a  county  where  the  court  is  so  highly  qualified  for  the  discharge  oftheir  duty, 
and  we  may  imagine  it  is  the  most  distinguished  in  Virginia.  The  reason  is  obvious  : 
that  gentleman  has  placed  himself  at  the  head  of  the  schools  in  that  county,  which  has 
educated  the  justices,  and  rendered  them  so  accomplished.  Not  so  in  my  part  of  the 
country ;  we  have  had  no  eminent  statesman  as  yet,  who  has  taken  upon  himself  the. 
education  of  boys. 

When  the  gentleman  made  his  long  speech  on  the  basis  of  Representation,  he  in- 
troduced, as  applicable  to  his  subject,  the  County  Court  system.  1  am  very  sure  I  am 
not  mistaken  in  the  fact,  for  he  told  us,  by  way  of  proving  the  excellence  of  these 
courts,  that  a  rich  man  could  with  difficulty  get  justice  against  a  poor  man.  And  if 
they  do  not  administer  jnstice  equally  between  rich  and  poor,  how  is  it  that  they  are 
such  favorites  with  the  rich.''  But  there  are  other  parts  of  the  State  where  the  oppo- 
site seems  to  be  the  case ;  however,  it  is  not  probable  that  they  will  long  be  a  favorite 
in  Virginia.  There  are  more  counties  than  Dinwiddle,  which  has  been  quoted  as  an 
example  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  (Mr.  Leigh,)  where  the  magistracy  of 
the  county  is  in  the  possession  of  one  or  two  families  only. 

The  gentleman  from  Amelia  assimilated  the  County  Courts  to  the  Senate  of  the 
United  States,  having  Legislative,  Executive,  and  Judicial  power.  He  always  finds, 
his  subject  carry  him  in  some  way  to  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  the  Ad- 
ministration,  or  some  department  thereof,  and  has  informed  this  Committee  that  he 
has  sat  as  a  Judge  in  that  Senate.  I  thank  him  for  this  example  of  illustrating  his  argu- 
ment. Does  Virginia  wish  that  her  Senators  in  Congress,  with  their  Executive,  Le- 
gislative, and  Judicial  powers,  sliould  be  appointed  by  themselves,  and  remain  in  office 
during  life,  as  County  Court  justices  are  appointed  and  remain  in  office .'  Not  so 
Virginia  has  lamented  the  election  of  some  of  her  Senators  before  their  short  term  of 
six  3^ears  expired,  which  no  man  better  knows  than  the  Delegate  from  Amelia. 

The  gentleman  has  informed  us,  that  if  the  freeholders  of  the  State  had  all  voted 
for  or  against  the  call  of  this  Convention,  and  the  polls  had  been  correctly  taken  and 
returned  by  the  Sherifts,  there  would  not  have  been  a  majority  in  favor  of  it:  and  that 
he  had  great  doubts  when  he  signed  his  proclamation,  w^hether  a  majority  was  in  favo? 
of  the  measure,  and  that  he  still  has  great  doubts  now.  If  we  examine  his  communica- 
tion to  the  last  General  Assembly,  it  would  seem  to  me  that  he  entertained  a  differ- 
ent opinion  at  that  time. 

We  have  also  heard  from  the  same  gentleman,  that  a  majority  of  the  freeholders 
would  be  against  the  call  of  the  Convention,  if  they  had  to  vote  now  for  or  against  it; 
and  changes  in  public  opinion  have  takeii  place  since  we  assembled.  So  far  as  my  ex- 
perience goes,  and  from  all  parts  of  the  State  that  I  have  heard  from,  there  has  b^en 
a  great  change,  but  that  change  is  against  the  old  Constitution,  with,  one  exception^ 
and  perhaps  that  exception  influenced  the  opinion  of  the  gentleman,  for  the  county 
is  not  far  from  Richmond. 

A  gentleman  of  great  authority  informed  me  a  few  days  ago,  that  there  were  great 
changes  in  the  county  in  which  he  resided,  and  that  if  the  vote  was  now  to  be  taken, 
the  majority  against  a  Convention  would  be  greater  than  it  was  in  the  Spring.  1  have 
examined  theleturn  of  the  votes  from  that  county,  as  communicated  to  the  last  Gene- 
ral Assembly  by  the  Governor,  and  I  find  that  in  May  last  only  o>fE  man  voted  in  that 
county  for  a  Convention. 

Mr.  Giles  rejoined  :  and  expressed  his  regret  that  the  gentleman  appeared  so  sensi- 
tive under  the  remarks  which  he  had  thrown  out.  He  had  served  with  that  gentleman 
in  Congress,  and  sure  he  was,  that  the  gentleman  at  that  time  had  always  been  ranked 
as  one  of  the  Federal  Party.  He  was  happy  at  this  late  period  to  hear  fi-om  the  gen- 
tleman a  new  profession.   It  was  wholly  new  to  him,  but  he  was  joyful  to  hear  it 


512 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION* 


even  though  it  was  so  late.  Mr.  G.  disclaimed  having  ever  Baid,  that  there  were 
counties  in  the  State  in  which  a  rich  man  could  not  get  justice.  What  he  had  said 
on  that  subject  was  intended  not  as  a  disparagement,  but  rather  as  a  compliment  to 
the  justices.  So  guarded  were  they  against  leaning  to  the  side  of  the  rich  to  the  in- 
jury of  the  poor,  that  their  leaning,  if  they  had  any,  was  rather  to  the  other  side,  so 
that  the  possession  of  riches  was,  if  any  thing,  rather  a  disadvantage  than  otherwise 
to  a  suitor  who  sought  to  oppress  his  poor  neighbour.  This  he  conceived  to  be  one  of 
the  highest  eulogiums  which  could  be  pronounced  upon  any  judicial  tribunal, 

Mr.  Johnson  said,  that  he  could  not  permit  the  vote  to  be  taken,  without  adding  his 
testimony  to  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Orange,  in  favour  of  these  ancient  tribunals 
of  the  land.  When  I  was  very  young,  said  Mr.  J.  and  but  little  experienced  in  the 
duties  of  my  profession,  I  had,  I  confess,  some  misgivings  about  our  County  Courts, 
My  perceptions  enabled  me  to  see  those  objections  to  them  which  lie  upon  the  sur- 
face, and  to  which  none  can  be  blind ;  but,  I  had  not  appreciated  the  blessings  which 
daily  flow  to  the  community  from  this  institution :  blessings  the  mofet  important  and  ex- 
tensive ;  which,  because  they  operate  silently,  are  not  so  apt  to  be  observed  by  a  tran- 
sient looker-on.  The  ill  effects  are  obvious  and  seen  by  all,  but  it  is  of  the  nature  of  all 
well  organized  political  institutions,  that  they  dispense  their  benefits  silently  and  with- 
out observation.  It  is,  therefore,  that  we  find  the  young  and  inexperienced  so  often  ar- 
rayed against  the  most  valuable  parts  of  the  Constitution.  It  was  so  with  me :  but  I 
had  not  long  looked  beneath  the  surface  and  reflected  on  the  eflfects  actually  produced 
by  the  County  Court  system,  till  I  was  perfectly  satisfied  of  its  value  and  importance 
to  the  well-being  of  our  Commonwealth.  Evils  it  no  doubt  has,  but  they  are  such  as 
are  inseparable  from  the  imperfection  of  all  human  things.  They  might,  many  of 
them,  be  corrected  by  ordinary  legislation:  but  in  getting  rid  of  some,  it  is  very  ques- 
tionable, whether  you  might  not  substitute  others  of  more  pernicious  consequences. 
I  am  well  persuaded  we  could  not  surrender  these  institutions  without  losing  one  of 
the  best  blessings  of  the  country.  I  concur  with  the  gentleman  from  Orange,  (Mr. 
Barbour,)  and  the  gentleman  from  Amelia,  (Mr.  Giles,)  in  the  opinions  they  have  ex- 
pressed, as  to  the  influence  of  these  courts  on  public  sentiment,  and  the  political 
opinions  of  the  people,  and  of  their  effect  upon  the  character  of  the  State.  Yes,  Sir, 
it  is  in  these  family  tribunals  with  their  mild  and  patriarchal  jurisdiction,  their  meet- 
ings held  at  short  periods,  and  in  small  districts,  that  the  obligations  and  rights  of  the 
citizen  are  taught  to  the  humblest  members  of  the  community.  Before  these  just  and 
equitable  tribunals,  the  humblest  and  the  poorest  man  can  have  his  right  to  property, 
to  character,  to  liberty,  and  to  life,  brought  into  fair  and  equal  competition  with  those 
of  his  proudest  and  most  wealthy  neighbour.  This  equal  administration  of  the  laws, 
tends  to  produce  among  the  people  a  strong  attachment  to  the  country  which  thus 
protects  their  persons  and  their  lives,  and  so  sensible  are  they  of  the  value  of  these  in- 
stitutions that  they  are  firmly  determined  never  to  give  them  up. 

Strike  out  this  clause  from  the  Constitution,  and  what  is  the  consequence  ?  Why^ 
say  the  gentlemen,  the  consequence  will  be  not  to  destroy  the  County  Courts,  but 
only  to  leave  them  to  the  control  of  the  Legislature.  The  Legislature  may  re-orga- 
nize them  if  they  please.  Sir,  do  gentlemen  really  think,  that  such  will  be  the  effect 
of  striking  out  this  clause  ?  Other  parts  of  our  Constitution  make  it  necessary  that  the 
County  Courts  should  be  Constitutional  Courts,  unless  they  also  are  to  be  surrendered 
to  the  Legislature.  Not  the  least  of  the  benefits  attending  these  courts  is  derived 
from  their  participation  in  the  Executive  power  of  the  Government,  but  how  can  this 
be  maintained  if  you  strike  them  out  as  a  Constitutional  provision  ?  Are  gentlemen 
prepared  to  leave  it  to  the  Legislature  to  mould  the  Executive  powers  of  the  Govern- 
ment? They  must  do  so  if  this  measure  prevails ;  they  must  vest  the  whole  of  it  in 
a  single  Executive,  if  they  deprive  the  County  Courts  of  all  share  in  its  participa- 
tion. What  will  gentlemen  do  with  the  residuum  of  power  which  they  take  away 
from  these  courts  ?  They  recommend  for  appointment  all  justices  and  militia-officers. 
This  must  be  given  to  the  Executive,  and  this  forsooth  is  proposed  as  a  means  to  get 
rid  of  faction  and  cabals  in  the  community.  Will  gentlemen  look  a  moment  at  this 
subject?  when  they  indulge  their  fears  of  this  spectre  of  cabal  and  intrigue  and  com- 
motion? From  whence  is  it  to  proceed?  from  the  County  Courts?  what  are  they? 
one  hundred  and  four  different  bodies;  one  in  each  county.  Can  it  be  probable  that 
one  hundred  and  four  collections  of  respectable  men  possessed  of  property  and  charac- 
ter, and  having  their  all  dependant  on  the  good  administration  of  the  laws,  will  be 
likely  to  produce  as  much  cabal  and  intrigue  in  the  State,  as  might  be  expected  to 
arise  if  the  whole  of  this  mass  of  power  should  be  put  into  the  hands  of  a  single 
Executive  ?  or  of  a  Governor  with  an  advisory  Council  ?  or  even  of  a  Governor  with 
a  Council  of  control  ?  Gentlemen  fear  lest  the  County  Courts  in  a  single  county 
should,  in  high  party  times,  appoint  two  or  three  Federalists,  with  a  view  to  influence 
the  balance  of  parties  in  the  State,  But,  what  might  be  apprehended  if  the  whole  of 
this  power  should  be  in  the  hands  of  an  Executive  wholly  Federal  ?  or  wholly  Repub- 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


513 


lican?  Then  instead  of  appointing  two  or  three  individuals  of  a  particular  party, 
from  party  considerations,  we  might  have  two  or  three  thousands  appointed  from  the 
same  motives. 

About  what  are  these  cabals  and  factions  to  arise  ?  Gentlemen  tell  us,  it  will  be  for 
the  purpose  of  keeping  up  family  power,  because  these  courts  appoint  the  members 
of  their  own  body;  but  do  gentlemen  remember  that  the  office  of  a  justice  is  not  an 
office  of  profit,  but  an  office  of  labour,  of  great  labour?  and  do  gentlemen  remember 
the  nature  of  the  responsibility  under  which  these  justices  act  ?  not  the  responsibility 
of  being  turned  out  of  office,  not  the  responsibility  which  they  owe  to  the  Constitu- 
tion, but  that  which  each  man  owes  to  his  immediate  neighbours.  They  have  a  di- 
rect relation  to  all  the  country  around  them,  and  the  moment  a  magistrate  incurs  by 
ill  conduct  the  public  displeasure,  that  moment  he  loses  all  the  honour  of  his  office,  and 
all  the  peace  and  comfort  of  his  life.  This  is  the  safeguard :  the  powerful  and  the  con- 
stant security,  which  the  Commonwealth  holds,  for  the  due  discharge  of  the  duties  of 
tlie  magisterial  office ;  this  is  the  pledge  against  the  undue  influence  of  any  party  of 
politicians  or  any  sect  of  religionists.  I  have  often  heard  the  charge  of  partiality  ad- 
vanced, but  I  never  yet  knew  it  to  be  verified  in  one  single  instance.  The  responsi- 
bility to  which  I  have  alluded  is  found  to  be  sufficient  and  effectual,  and  I  am  not 
willing  for  the  sake  of  opening  a  field  to  Legislative  ingenuity  on  a  subject  of  such 
vital  importance  to  the  well-being  of  the  Commonwealth,  to  strike  the  County  Courts 
from  our  proposed  Constitution. 

Mr.  Henderson  said,  that  he  had  intended  to  enter  fully  into  a  reply,  but  he  should 
not  do  so  now.  He  differed  from  the  gentleman  who  had  spoken  as  to  the  necessity 
of  retaining  these  tribunals,  by  giving  them  a  Constitutional  consecration.  He  saw 
no  need  whatever  of  making  them  a  part  of  our  organic  law.  If  the  arguments  of 
gentlemen  were  good,  and  the  statements  which  they  had  made  correct,  the  Legisla- 
ture could  not  fail  to  retain  these  courts.  Could  it  be  believed  that  the  Assembly 
would  be  guilty  of  the  wantonness  of  throwing  such  popular  and  such  valuable  tribu- 
nals to  the  winds  ?  Mr.  H.  said,  that  in  case  he  should  find  it  likely  to  be  of  any 
avail,  he  should  present  some  different  views  of  the  subject;  at  present,  he  should 
merely  say,  that  it  was  his  opinion  that  the  County  Courts  ought  not  to  be  left  in  the 
fundamental  laws  of  the  State.  Gentlemen  had  said,  that  they  had  observed  these 
courts  for  a  quarter  of  a  century,  and  that  they  had  constantly  grown  in  their  estima- 
tion: He  also  had  practised  before  tiiem,  and  was  sorry  that  he  could  not  in  candour 
bear  the  same  testimony  in  their  behalf  The  magistrates  were  in  general  worthy 
men,  but  they  were  not  acquainted  with  law,  and  were  not  capable  of  duly  discharging 
the  duties  that  were  required  at  their  hands.  However  it  might  be  in  lower  Virginia, 
where,  according  to  gentlemen's  statements,  the  magistrates  were  men  of  fortune  and 
leisure,  and  took  a  pride  in  fitting  themselves  for  their  duty,  in  the  remote  parts  of  the 
State  this  was  not  the  case.  The  population  were  in  a  very  different  condition  :  the 
magistrates  were  not  so  wealthy  ;  they  had  business  at  home  and  could  not  afford  to 
travel  thirty,  fifty,  and  one  hundred  miles,  attend  their  courts  and  return  again,  on 
their  own  charges.  When  they  did  so,  the  court  could  not  be  induced  to  sit  long  enough 
to  try  the  causes  before  them,  and  such  were  the  impediments  and  the  delays  in  ob- 
taining justice,  that  though  he  was  a  professional  man,  he  was  in  the  habit  of  advising 
clients  who  applied  to  him,  to  pocket  their  loss,  if  it  did  not  exceed  fifty  or  sixty  dol- 
lars, rather  than  encounter  the  difficulties  and  the  hazard  of  going  before  these  courts. 
He  repeated  his  belief,  that  the  magistrates  were  in  general  very  worthy  men.  He 
felt  high  respect  for  those  in  his  own  portion  of  the  State,  yet  he  considered  them  for 
the  most  part  unfit  for  the  stations  they  held  :  and  this  without  any  fault  of  their  own, 
or  the  least  imputation  against  them.  They  were  country  gentlemen,  very  imper- 
fectly acquainted  with  law,  who  liad  affairs  of  their  own  to  attend  to,  and  could  not 
afford  to  neglect  their  own  business  for  that  of  the  public,  without  som-C  compensation. 

Mr.  Leigh  rose  in  reply.  The  gentleman  from  Loudoun  had  said,  that  he  could 
see  no  reason  why  the  Legislature  might  not  be  entrusted  witli  the  entire  control  of 
this  subject;  would  the  gentleman  carr\''  out  his  principle,  and  leave  the  whole  Judi- 
cial Department  of  the  Government  to  the  management  of  the  Legislature  .''  Such  was 
the  direct  consequence  of  the  gentleman's  doctrine.  Sir,  said  Mr.  L.  it  is  with  inef- 
fable surprise,  that  I  learn  that  in  the  great  and  flourishing  county  of  Loudomi,  of 
which  we  have  all  heard  so  much  and  so  long,  persons  are  not  to  be  found,  who  are 
fit  to  discharge  the  duties  of  a  magistrate.  Tf  this  had  been  affirmed  of  some  very 
poor  or  very  small  county  of  the  State,  I  should  have  less  difficulty  in  comprehending 
the  case,  and  in  crediting  the  assertion  ;  but  how  there  should  be  such  a  difference  in 
this  respect,  between  the  county  of  Loudoun  and  the  county  of  Orange,  I  confess 
myself  to  be  at  a  loss  to  comprehend.  I  never  before  heard  any  complaint  of  Lou- 
doun, or  any  thing  about  its  insufficiency  to  produce  good  magistrates.  However 
this  may  be  in  Loudoun,  it  is  certainly  a  fact  that  the  County  Courts  accomplish  nine- 
tenths  of  the  Judicial  business  of  this  State.  The  mass  of  business  they  go  through 
would  hardly  be  believed  by  the  mao-istrates  themselves.    Those  unpretending  men 

65 


I 


514  DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 

can  scarce  form  a  conception  of  the  importance  of  their  own  situation :  they  do  not  exer- 
cise a  jurisdiction  in  common  law  and  equity  only,  but  perform  all  the  duties  of  a  Court 
of  Probat,  and  of  an  Orphan's  Court.  It  is  calculated,  that  every  estate  in  England 
passes  the  Court  of  Chancery  once  in  thirty  years ;  if  such  is  the  case  in  England,  in 
Virginia  where  the  law  of  descents  is  so  different,  the  real  estate  must  come  under 
Chancery  decision  in  a  much  shorter  period ;  ninety-nine  hundredths  of  the  cases  of 
guardians  and  executors  and  all  those  of  trustees  are  of  this  description.  All  our  estates 
are  divided  by  descent  or  devise.  Only  compare  the  number  of  estates  with  the  number 
of  law-questions  which  come  to  be  settled.  Now  in  ninety-nine  cases  out  of  one  hun- 
dred, the  County  Courts  perform  all  this  business.  Of  all  the  litigated  questions  of  pro- 
bat,  what  proportion  ever  reach  the  Court  of  Appeals  ^  Nine  hundred  and  ninety-nine 
out  of  a  thousand  of  these  questions  are  finally  determined  in  the  County  Courts.  Take 
the  Circuit  Court  dockets  and  compare  the  number  of  causes  there  with  the  number 
in  the  County  Courts,  and  yoxx  will  find  that  the  number  in  the  latter  is  infinitely 
greater.  [Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour,  as  four  to  one.  Mr.  Morris,  aye  as  ten  to  one.]  Now, 
Sir,  the  County  Courts  do  all  this  amount  of  business,  and  they  do  it  well.  A  case 
may  accidentally  occur  under  their  Chancery  jurisdiction  involving  some  difficult 
questions  of  law,  and  in  these  they  may  be  somewhat  at  a  loss  ;  yet  I  remember  one  such 
case  in  Dinwiddie,  which  was  very  difliicult  indeed,  where  the  decision  of  the  County 
Court  was  carried  up  to  the  Superior  Court  and  reversed  ;  it  was  afterwards  carried 
to  the  Court  of  Appeals,  and  after  a  full  hearing,  the  judgment  of  the  County  Court 
was  there  found  to  have  been  right.  The  Judges  of  the  Superior  Court  bewildered 
by  their  authorities  had  decided  wrong,  while  these  plain  magistrates  of  the  County 
Court  had  followed  the  exact  spirit  of  the  law,  and  had  decided  right.  How  did  this 
happen  that  a  collection  of  country  justices  should  decide  on  a  very  difficult  question 
of  law  more  correctly  than  men  educated  to  the  profession,  and  of  long  experience  in 
the  very  business  of  deciding  questions  of  that  kind  ^  It  happened,  because  the  one 
followed  the  principles  of  natural  justice,  while  the  other  was  perplexed  and  bewil 
dered  by  a  set  of  artificial  rules :  and  hence  it  comes,  that  the  eulogium  pronounced 
by  the  learned  gentleman  from  Orange  is  perfectly  just,  in  declaring  that  these  tribu- 
nals are  not  merely  good,  but  the  very  best  on  earth.  They  accomplish  all  the  busi- 
ness I  have  stated  :  they  do  it  well,  and  they  do  it  for  nothing  :  they  have  jurisdiction  of 
all  common  law  causes  over  twenty  dollars,  of  all  cases  in  equity  and  probat ;  all 
cases  of  intestacy  and  of  administration ;  besides  the  jurisdiction  over  mills,  roads, 
bridges,  &c.,  and  the  people  get  the  whole  of  this  for  nothing.  With  what  do  gentle- 
men propose  to  furnish  a  substitute  for  such  an  institution  ?  They  will  give  us  a  few 
ignorant  Judges.  These  of  course  are  to  receive  a  salary.  You  cannot  have  less  than 
two  in  each  county ;  and  what  will  you  give  them  ?  You  cannot  offer  them  less  than 
three  hundred  dollars,  and  their  services  are  low  at  that.  You  must  then  have  an  ex- 
penditure of  six  hundred  dollars  a-piece  for  one  hundred  and  five  counties,  that  is,  an 
expenditure  of  $  63,000,  and  then  what  is  all  your  saving  by  the  reduction  of  the  num- 
ber of  the  Legislature  ?  Instead  of  our  present  upright  justices  of  the  peace,  who 
have  learned  none  of  the  tricks  of  the  profession,  you  are  to  get  a  pettifogger,  too 
young  to  understand  his  profession,  or  else  an  old  one  who  never  had  brains  to  ac- 
quire it.  It  is  with  materials  like  these  that  you  are  to  fill  your  seat  of  judgment, 
with  young  lawyers  half  read,  who  have  some  little  knowledge  of  Blackstone  :  very 
small ;  very  small  indeed  ;  and  a  few  of  the  principal  Statutes,  or  an  old  lawyer  who  is 
willing  to  take  the  place  for  three  hundred  dollars.  These  are  to  be  your  Judges.  I 
confess  they  are  the  very  last  that  I  should  choose  for  mine.  This  is  the  gentleman's 
expedient,  and  what  conceivable  benefit  is  likely  to  result  from  such  a  change.^  none 
whatever.  You  will  get  nobody  for  your  Judges,  but  the  very  last  men  in  whom  the 
community  v/ill  have  any  confidence.  It  is  an  old  remark  that  in  the  administration 
of  justice  it  is  indispensable  not  only  that  it  should  be  done  fairly,  and  done  prompt- 
ly, but  that  it  should  be  done  to  the  satisfaction  of  the  people.  This  is  a  considera- 
tion which  a  statesman  will  not  fail  to  keep  in  view.  And  how  is  it  administered  in 
the  County  Courts  Mr.  Chairman,  I  am  sometimes  tempted  to  believe  that  I  am  in 
a  different  part  of  the  world,  from  the  accounts  some  gentlemen  give  of  these  courts. 
I  have  long  practised  in  them ;  1  thought  that  I  knew  them  well ;  my  confidence  has 
all  sprung  from  observation  and  experience ;  yet  it  seems  that  they  know  nothing  of 
law,  and  are  wholly  incompetent  to  the  duties  they  perform.  Sir,  might  not  the  same 
objection  be  urged  against  the  trial  by  jury  ?  We  submit  the  law  as  well  as  the  fact 
to  men  who  are  not  lawyers,  and  yet  we  all  see  good  juries  and  sound  verdicts. 

Is  any  charge  of  arrogance  brought  against  our  justices?  do  the  people  complain  of 
them  as  tyrannical  and  overbearing far  from  it.  On  the  contrary,  there  is  a  purity,  an 
easy  unassuming  unconscious  dignity,  and,  above  all,  an  impress  of  neighbourly  kind- 
ness, seen  and  felt  in  the  administration  of  all  their  powers,  which  has  endeared  these 
tribunals  to  tlie  people,  and  procured  for  them  universal  respect.  But  we  are  told 
there  will  be  cabals ;  tliere  will  be  intrigues.  Doubtless  there  will.  There  will  be 
cabals,  and  there  will  be  intrigues  among  men  at  all  times,  and  in  every  place.  But 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


615 


what  cabals  and  what  intrigues  are  likely  to  arise  in  these  County  Courts  ?  How 
many  instances  of  corruption  have  been  so  much  as  charged  against  any  of  them  ? 
I  know  of  but  one,  in  the  county  of  Berkeley,  and  I  believe  one  more  in  the  county  of 
Amherst.  Such  is  the  amount  of  corruption  which  has  been  alleged  against  this  en- 
tire body  of  men  in  the  course  of  two  hundred  years.  I  will  be  obliged  to  any  gen- 
tleman to  point  me  out  so  much  as  a  charge  of  corruption  beyond  this,  and  this  so 
far  as  I  know  is  a  charge  only.  If  there  are  cabals,  they  have  never  been  charged 
to  any  unfairness  of  the  justices  in  the  discharge  of  their  official  duty. 

But  we  are  told  that  the  County  Courts  renew  themselves  ;  that  the  justices  have 
power  to  perpetuate  their  own  body.  Sir,  I  have  seen  them  at  this  v/ork.  They  first 
enquire  whether  an  additional  justice  of  the  peace  is  required  by  the  wants  of  the 
county:  they  then  select  the  most  respectable  man  they  can  find ;  they  name  him  to 
the  Executive  as  a  fit  person  to  be  put  in  commission,  and  the  Executive  rarely  sees 
cause  to  refuse  the  appointment.  Much  however  has  been  said  about  the  force  of 
family  influence.  A  friend  of  mine  very  zealous  for  the  reformation  of  old  abuses,  said 
to  me,  some  time  ago,  (and  appealed  to  me  for  the  truth  of  the  remark),  that  the  bench 
of  justices  of  the  County  Court  of  Dinwiddie  consisted  almost  exclusively  of  two 
families  and  their  connexions;  and  I  well  remembered,  and  therefore  admitted,  that 
when  I  belonged  to  that  county,  the  fact  was  so.  But  I  asked  him,  in  my  turn,  whe- 
ther he  had  ever  known  that  court  to  refuse  or  hesitate  to  nominate  any  person  of  any 
other  family  or  connexion,  proper  to  be  put  in  the  commission  of  the  peace  He 
readily  answered.  No.  Whether  the  number  of  persons  of  those  families  on  the  bench, 
at  the  time  he  spoke  of,  was  not  owing  intirely  to  the  numerousness  and  general  res- 
pectability of  those  two  families  and  tlieir  connexions  in  the  county  ?  This  he  readily 
admitted.  Were  not  the  justices  in  commission,  highly  respectable,  honorable,  honest 
men,  fit  and  worthy  of  their  station  ?  Yes.  Did  they  not  do  their  duty,  and  admi- 
nister justice  promptly,  intelligently,  impartially,  in  a  spirit  of  neighbourh-  kindness 
towards  the  people,  and  at  the  same  time  with  firmness Yes.  Did  they  not  admi- 
nister justice  to  the  satisfaction  of  the  people  ?  Yes.  Heard  you  ever  any  complaint 
of  thera.'  No.  Well  then,  said  I,  if  justice  was  administered  to  me  and  mine, 
honestly,  fairly  and  promptly,  and  administered  without  fee  or  reward,  why  should 
I  care,  that  the  judges  were  named  Goodicijn  or  Pegram!  As  to  incapacity  and 
ignorance,  I  have  seen  County  Courts  wliich  were  among  the  ablest  tribunals 
before  which  I  ever  practised,  not  excepting  the  Court  of  Appeals.  They  are  in 
general  able  tribunals  for  all  they  have  to  do.  This  was  eminently  true  of  the 
County  Court  of  Amelia  twenty-seven  years  ago,  when  I  practised  there,  I  am  for 
retaining  the  County  Courts,  if  to  retain  them  be  possible.  A  friend  sent  to  me  an  ac- 
count of  the  expense  of  accomplishing  in  the  County  Court  of  Baltimore,  what  would 
be  done  in  Virginia  for  nothinor.  The  fees  of  the  register  of  wills  alone,  were  equal 
to  what  would  be  a  salary  for  one  of  our  justices.  The  charges  of  the  Orphan's 
Court  were  two  or  three  dollars  a  day,  whether  the  session  consisted  of  a  day  or  an 
hour.  In  short,  the  costs  beat  those  in  our  Court  of  Appeals  all  hollow.  '  When 
I  knew  that  the  County  Courts  were  to  be  assailed,  I  made  out  a  list  of  these  ex- 
penses, and  according  to  my  recollection,  the  amount  greatly  exceeded  the  revenue 
paid  by  the  like  number  of  people  in  any  part  of  Virginia.  Yet,  gentlemen  are  for 
getting  rid  of  this  cheap  system,  and  substituting  a  dear  one  in  its  place,  the  expense 
of  which  will  greatly  exceed  all  the  saving  we  shall  effect  by  reducing  the  Legisla- 
ture. But  that  is  not  all,  nor  the  tenth  part,  nor  the  thousandth  part  of  what  we  shall 
lose,  or  of  what  Maryland  lost,  by  exchanging  her  County  Court  system  for  Circuit 
Courts  and  justices  with  fees,  and  Courts  of  Probat.  How  much  they  pay  in  fees, 
I  know  not,  but  the  sum  is  enormous. 

When  I  was,  sometime  since,  in  the  city  of  Philadelphia,  a  gentleman  said  to  me, 
partly  in  jest,  "You  Virginians  are  very  proud;"  I  replied,  that  I  had  often  heard 
that  charge  advanced,  and  believed  that  there  might  be  some  truth  in  it.  and  that  since 
I  had  crossed  the  Potomac,  I  felt  a  little  inclined  to  indulge  such  a  feeling  myself. 
The  gentleman  answered,  *•  proud  as  you  are,  yon  are  not  as  proud  as  you  ought  to 
be,"  and  he  then  went  into  an  eulogium  of  our  institutions,  which  I  am  unwilling  to 
repeat.  How  he  got  his  information,  1  do  not  know,  but  he  was  intimately  acquainted 
with  our  circumstances,  and  especially  with  our  County  Court  system,  which  he  ap- 
peared to  understand,  at  least  as  well  as  I  did  myself.  By  way  of  showing  the 
contrast  between  the  state  of  matters  in  his  own  Commonwealth  and  ours,  he  related 
to  me  this  anecdote.  He  had  once  been  foreman  of  a  jury,  when  a  black  man  was 
tried  for  stealing  a  side  of  leather.  There  was  but  one  witness,  and  he  was  an  ap- 
prentice. The  black  man  had  sold  a  side  of  leather  to  a  white  man,  who  was  to  pay 
the  money  down,  but  failed  to  do  so.  The  black  man,  sometime  after,  went  to  the 
house  of  the  white  man  to  get  the  money;  the  white  man  was  absent  from  home,  and 
the  side  of  leather  lay  in  a  shop  where  this  apprentice  was  at  work.  Seeing  his  own 
property,  which  had  not  been  paid  for  according  to  agreement,  the  black  man  laid  it 
on  his  shoulder  and  carried  it  home.    For  thus  resuming  his  own  property,  he  was 


516 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


committed  by  a  justice  of  the  peace  to  be  tried  for  grand  larceny.  When  a  gentle- 
man remonstrated  with  the  justice  on  the  hardship  of  the  case,  and  asked  him  how- 
he  could  do  such  a  thing ;  the  justice  replied,  "  It  was  all  his  own  fault,  if  he  would 
have  paid  the  costs,  I  would  not  have  committed  him."  Sir,  thus  it  is,  and  thus  it 
will  be  obliged  to  be,  if  you  put  men  into  the  commission  of  the  peace,  and  allow 
them  fees  for  their  services.  Litigation ;  petty  litigation  with  all  its  evils  will  prevail 
and  increase.  Instead  of  composing  the  disputes  of  their  neighbours,  they  will  incite 
them  to  strife,  for  the  sake  of  Ihe  lucre  of  gain.  The  office  of  a  justice  will  come  to 
serve  as  a  m.ere  place  for  pettifogging.  But,  gentlemen  say,  they  do  not  wish  us  to 
abolish  the  Connty  Courts,  but  only  to  give  fees  to  the  justices.  Kentucky  tried  this 
tack,  and  enacted  a  fee-bill,  and  from  that  ill-fated  moment,  she  found  the  justices  of 
the  peace  prove  a  curse  and  not  a  blessing.  All  respectable  men  withdrew  from  the 
office  ;  and  to  cure  the  evils  which  followed,  the  Legislature  was  obliged  to  narrow 
down  the  jurisdiction  of  the  County  Courts,  until  they  reduced  it  to  almost  nothing. 
No,  Sir.  If  you  abolish  the  County  Court  system  as  it  is  now  established,  there  is  no 
other  alternative,  than  a  set  of  petty  Judges  with  fees;  than  whom  I  can  imagine  no 
greater  pest  to  this,  or  any  other  community.  I  do  trust,  that  this  ancient  feature  of 
the  internal  polity  of  Virginia,  will  be  permitted  to  remain.  Gentlemen  profess  vast 
veneration  for  the  Constitution,  but,  I  would  thank  them  to  tell  me,  what  part  of  the 
Constitution  they  do  venerate.  Let  what  change  be  proposed  that  will,  it  is  sure  of 
having  their  vote.  They  abolish  all  they  can,  and  yet  they  tell  us,  of  their  great  and 
profound  veneration  for  our  ancient  institutions.  From  such  veneration,  may  God 
deliver  all  that  I  hold  dear. 

Mr.  Henderson  wishing  to  reply,  moved  that  the  Committee  rise.  It  rose  according- 
ly, and  thereupon  the  House  adjourned. 


TUESDAY,  December  1,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Parks  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

Mr.  Henderson  moved,  that  the  Convention  go  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  but 
withdrew  the  motion  at  the  request  of, 

Mr.  Coalter,  who  rose  and  addressed  the  Committee  from  a  written  speech,  as 
follows : 

I  have  been  a  week  in  this  Convention,  and  but  within  the  last  two  or  three  days 
have  been  furnished  with  a  copy  of  the  reports  of  the  various  Committees  which  have 
been  under  discussion ;  and  some  reports  of  the  Auditor. 

I  find  that  we  are  thrown  on  rather  a  tempestuous  ocean  ;  and  not  being  accustomed 
to  such  voyages,  I  am  getting  somewhat  sea-sick.  I  wish,  if  possible,  to  see  land  ;  to 
see  my  family,  and  to  see  my  friends  and  constituents,  who  are  looking  out  for  the 
good  old  ship,  the  Constitution,  with  no  little  anxiety  ;  and  many  of  whom,  I  know, 
would  be  willing  to  obtain  a  policy  of  insurance  for  her  safety,  at  almost  any  pre- 
mium— I  too,  have  been  thinking  of  a  plan  by  which  we  may  perhaps  get  again  into 
harbour,  or  at  least  into  still-water.  I  have  consulted  no  man  about  it;  for,  I  wish  no 
one  to  be  implicated  with  me  in  what  may  be  considered  so  visionary  a  scheme.  Be- 
sides, I  may  be  wrong  in  the  extent  to  which  I  am  at  present  prepared  to  go,  in  mak- 
ing a  compromise,  or  may  not  be  willing  to  go  far  enough. 

I  know  nothing  o7  the  order  and  forms  to  be  pursued  for  the  purpose  of  laying  be- 
fore this  body  the  plan,  which  has  suggested  itself  to  my  mind,  in  order  to  bring  our 
labours  to  a  close. 

We  are  pretty  equally  divided,  it  seems,  on  a  great  variety  of  most  hnportant  sub- 
jects. It  may  be  thought,  that  if  those  great  subjects  were  grouped  together,  and 
presented  to  us  in  some  single  or  tangible  shape,  containing,  in  the  whole  instrument, 
those  things  which  can  be  acceded  to  on  either  side,  and  also  indicating  those  which 
cannot,  we  might  come  to  some  agreement. 

I  find,  on  looking  over  the  table  furnished  by  the  Auditor,  that  the  whole  number 
of  freeholders  in  the  State  may  amount,  say  to  92,856 
By  adding  together  the  whole  number  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  and  non-residents 

including  therewith,  the  counties  of  Loudoun  and  Fairfax,  (sup-  and  all. 

posed  to  have  an  identity  of  opinion,  feeling  and  interest  on  many 

of  these  great  questions)  the  whole  number  amounts,  say  to  48,920 

Which  deducted,  leaves  43,936 
It  is  supposed,  however,  that  certain  other  counties  below  the  Ridge,  are  also  iden- 
tified with  them,  if  not  m  interest,  at  least  in  opinion  and  feeling  as  to  some  of  these 
questions.    This,  though,  is  doubted ;  and  it  is  said  that  the  signs  of  the  times  in  those 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


617 


counties  shew  that  there  is  in  reahty  no  such  serious  disunion  in  the  rest  of  lower 
Virginia.    Taking  this  to  be  so,  the  comparative  strength  is  as  48,920  to 

43,936 


4,984 

It  is  probable  this  majority  would  be  lessened  by  estimating  the  number  of  non- 
residents. 

But  whether  I  am  in  the  majority  of  freeholcfers,  or  in  the  minority,  or  whether 
from  instructions,  or  other  convictions  operating  on  the  Delegation  from  that  section 
of  the  State  above  alluded  to,  as  to  the  opinions  of  their  constituents,  I  may  hereafter 
find  myself  in  a  majority  on  this  floor,  is  not  the  question. 

The  question  with  me  is,  whether  should  I  be  in  such  a  majority  against  such  a 
minority  as  would  then  be  on  this  floor,  and  in  the  country,  am  I  prepared  to  adopt 
an  amendment  to  the  Constitution,  containing  the  mixed  basis  of  Representation,  or 
the  Federal  number  in  both  branches  of  the  Legislature  ?  Now,  though  I  most  sin- 
cerely and  religiously  tliink,  that  this  latter  is  wliat  we  ought  all  to  agree  to,  and 
were  it  proper  nov/,  or  should  it  become  proper,  I  trust  I  can  shew  reasons  enough  to 
induce  a  belief  at  least  that  I  am  as  sincere  in  that  opinion  as  those  are  who  entertain 
a  contrary  one,  yet  I  could  not  exercise  that  power — no — I  am  not  that  man — I  have 
Scotch-Irish  blood  in  me,  it  is  true — of  that  old  blood  which  did  not  come  here  to  en- 
joy a  land  already  blessed  with  every  thing  that  land  can  be  blessed  with;  but  to 
subdue  the  wilderness,  and  to  make  a  country  for  themselves — who  came  over  about 
the  time  when  tlie  Solemn  League  and  Covenaiit  was  still  talked  of,  and  which  I  re- 
collect to  have  heard  talked  of  as  far  back  as  I  can  recollect  any  thing. 

It  is  a  blood  I  am  proud  of ;  and  I  hope  I  don't  disgrace  it  when  I  say  I  would  trem 
ble  and  shrink  from  such  a  step. 

Reluctant  as  I  would  be  for  this  Convention  to  rise  without  doing  any  thing,  I 
would  rather  do  that — on  this  great  question  of  basis  of  Representation.  The  power 
of  reason,  it  seems  to  me,  is  gone— -forever  gone^  perhaps  on  both  sides — we  must 
compra/nise  or  do  nothing. 

But,  will  I,  if  I  have  the  power  to  do  so,  establish  the  mixed  basis,  or  the  Federal 
number  for  the  most  numcrotis  branch  ?  No,  Sir,  I  would  not  even  do  this  against  such 
a  minority  in  this  House,  and  probable  majority  in  this  country,  although  the  majority 
here  be  with  me.  I  icill  rather  adjourn  and  do  nothing.  I  would  rather  call  on  the 
magnanimity  of  such  a  majority,  to  say,  whether  we  ought  not  to  adjourn,  rather  than 
do  this  thing?  But,  as  it  is  all-important  that  we  should  not  so  adjourn,  then  I  again 
call  on  them  to  say,  whether,  if  other  great  interests,  in  which  they,  with  me,  feel 
most  deeply  concerned,  can  be  saved,  at  least  for  the  present,  and  until  more  time  and 
reflection  can  be  bestowed  on  them,  this  troubled  ocean  ought  not  to  be  at  rest? 

Whether  this  ought  not  to  be  done,  even  at  the  expense  of  considerable  sacrifices? 

And  I  call  upon  the  other  side  to  say,  whether  the  storm  is  to  continue  to  rage ;  or 
whether  they  will  be  satisfied  with  an  ample  redress  of  real  grievances,  leaving  some- 
thing for  posterity  to  reflect  upon  and  to  do,  if  they  think  proper?  I  trust  I  will  be 
met  in  that  spirit  of  candour  and  open-heartedness,  by  which  /  feel  myself  actuated. 
As  to  the  manner  in  which  we  shall  come  together,  and  as  to  many  minor  points,  I 
Sim  a.  nose  of  icax,  to  be  fashioned  as  gentlemen  choose.  As  to  great  and  essential 
points,  if  they  can't  be  compromised,  I  am  a  rock  of  granite  ;  or  what  is  nearly  the 
same  thing — a  Scotch-Irishman.  I  am  willing  now,  if  it  be  the  pleasure  of  the  House, 
to  expose  fully  my  views. 

In  order  to  bring  before  the  House  what  /  am  zcilling  to  do,  as  well  as  what  I  am 
■iwt  willing  to  do,  I  will  have  reference  to  the  reports  of  the  Committees,  which  have 
been  under  consideration — (all  my  projects  may  be  said  to  be  already  in  print :)  It 
being  always  understood,  that  wlaen  [  agree  to  any  proposition,  by  way  of  compro- 
mise, to  which  it  is  known  I  am  otherwise  opposed,  I  am  not  to  be  considered  as  com- 
mitted, unless  other  things,  deemed  essential  by  me,  are  yielded  to  me,  or  abandoned, 
as  the  case  may  be.  Should  others  act  with  the  same  frankness,  we  may,  perhaps, 
soon  see  whether  we  are  likely  to  compromise.  I  will  also  premise,  that  if  other 
schemes  of  compromise  are  proposed,  not  touching  certain  cardinal  points,  from  which 
no  evils  have  resulted,  but  leaving  them  to  posterity  to  settle,  I  will  feel  myself  quite 
at  liberty  to  choose  between  them.  Some  of  these  have  been  presented.  But  I  wish 
to  see,  combined  icith  them,  the  ^chole  scheme  of  the  instrument,  that  I  may  say,  whe- 
ther, 071  the  ichole,  I  think  it  will  be  a  blessing  or  a  curse  to  the  country. 

Thus,  then,  and  in  this  spirit,  I  am  willing  to  agree  to  the  first  resolution  of  the 
Legislative  Committee,  and  also,  of  course,  to  the  second,  or  any  modification  of  it, 
that  may  be  satisfactory  to  a  majority. 

•  In  lieu  of  the  third  resolution,  I  am  willing  to  adopt  the  amendment,  (No.  35,)  of- 
fered by  the  member  from  Chesterfield.  I  would  though,  as  at  present  advised,  prefer 
to  retain  the  provision  in  the  original  resolution,  to  be  found  in  the  third,  fourth,  fiflh 
and  sixth  lines,  so  as  to  require  some  reasonable  value  to  be  affixed  to  all  freeholds  : 


518 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


And  I  have  reasons,  which  have  considerable  weight  with  me,  and  which  I  will  be 
ready  to  assign,  if  necessary,  for  preferring  to  amend  that  amendment,  by  striking 
out  the  third  resolution  therein,  concerning  lease-holders.  These,  however,  are  not 
essential  points  with  me  ;  but  it  is  a  sine  qua  non  with  me,  not  to  go  farther  than  that 
amendment  goes,  in  enlarging  the  Right  of  Suffrage. 

In  lieu  of  the  fourth  resolution,  I  am  content  to  take  the  amendment,  (No.  35,) 
proposed  by  the  member  from  Goochland.  That  is  also  a  sine  qua  non  with  me,  if 
nothing  better  can  be  had — and  I*  moreover,  think  it  important,  that  the  Senate 
should  have  the  right  to  propose  amendments  to  revenue  bills,  as  well  as  to  any  others. 

I  will,  then,  have  no  objections  to  the  other  resolutions  of  the  Legislative  Com 
mittee.  As  to  the  report  of  the  Executive  Committee,  I  am  for  rejecting  the  whole 
of  it,  except  the  first  resolution,  which  ought  to  be  amended  by  a  provision,  that  the 
Oovernor  shall  be  elected  by  the  Legislature.  This  is  a  sine  qua  non — but  whether 
he  is  to  be  elected  for  one  or  three  years,  is  a  matter  of  minor  importance.  The  in- 
clination of  my  mind,  at  present,  is  for  the  latter. 

In  lieu  of  the  second,  third  and  fourth  resolutions,  I  would  greatly  prefer  the  propo- 
sition, (No.  2!J,)  of  the  member  from  this  city,  to  any  thing  else  which  I  have  hitherto 
seen.  1  will,  however,  be  content  with  the  will  of  the  majority,  on  this  point.  It 
has  occurred  to  me  though,  that  this  proposition  might,  perhaps  be  more  acceptable, 
if  five  were  the  number — one  of  whom  to  be  elected  from  the  Western  district,  one 
from  the  Valley,  two  between  that  and  Tide-water,  and  one  below  :  Or,  if  four  con- 
tinued the  number,  to  have  one  from  each  district.  Thus,  the  circumstances  and 
situation  of  each  district,  would,  as  it  were,  be  represented  in  the  Executive  ;  and  the 
people  could  more  easily  make  known  their  wants.  The  changes  that  must  be  made 
in  many  of  the  laws,  to  fit  them  to  a  new  state  of  things,  is  also  a  consideration  with 
me.  In  executing  many  of  those  laws  too,  the  Governor,  it  seems  to  me,  must  have 
assistance,  as  well  as  advice.    This  must  be  provided  and  paid  for. 

There  is  nothing  in  the  report  of  the  Judicial  Committee,  (in  relation  to  which,  I 
can  or  ought  to  express  an  opinion,)  of  which  I  can  be  said  to  disapprove,  as  I  may 
possibly  give  some  reasonr,,  at  a  proper  time,  to  shew  that  it  might  be  safest  to  vary  it 
in  some  respects.  I  allude  particularly  to  the  Chancery  Jurisdiction — as,  for  instance, 
after  the  word  "  Courts,"  in  the  second  line,  to  introduce  the  words,  "  of  Common 
Law  and  Chancery  Jurisdiction,"  so  as  to  prevent  the  Legislature  from  a  total  aboli- 
tion of  Chancery  Jurisdiction,  in  any  shape.  Should  1  conclude  to  propose  any  such 
amendment,  I  will,  at  a  proper  time,  assign  my  reasons. 

There  is  nothing,  however,  in  that  report,  (on  which  I  can  vote)  in  regard  to  which 
I  will  not  readily  accede  to  the  will  of  the  majority,  unless  the  words  "  Inferior 
Courts,"  in  the  second  line  of  the  fourth  resolution,  can  be  construed  as  embracing 
justices  of  the  peace,  which  I  presume  was  not  intended  :  and  unless  the  eighth  reso- 
lution can  be  construed  to  mean,  that  a  Judge  may  be  removed  by  a  vote  of  two- 
thirds  of  the  Legislature,  not  only  for  an  impeachable  oflTence,  but  for  an  opinion 
honestly  given,  but  which  may  be  vmpopular,  or  considered  erroneous  by  the  Legisla- 
ture. I  feel  satisfied  it  was  not  so  intended ;  but  I  fear,  lest  in  trying  times,  it  might 
be  so  construed.  I  presume  the  object  was  to  provide  for  the  removal  of  a  Judge, 
who,  from  age,  confirmed  bodily  disease,  or  from  any  other  incapacity,  not  of  an  im- 
peachable character  as  a  crime,  is  unable  to  perform  the  duties  of  his  office. 

I  too,  have  bestowed  a  Sabbath  in  this  work.  It  is  lawful,  on  that  day,  to  get  our 
neighbours  up  out  of  the  ditch.  I  thought  it,  therefore,  not  unlawful,  and  not  knowing 
that  others  were  making  similar  efforts,  to  try  and  get  myself,  as  well  as  my  neighbours, 
out  of  the  slough  of  despond,  into  which  we  seem  unfortunately  to  have  fallen. 

I  owe  it  to  myself  distinctly  to  state  this  much;  and,  thus,  according  to  my  notions 
of  difair,  open,  honorable  and  manly  compact,  to  present  something  entire  to  the  view 
of  the  House.  I  am  prepared  to  go  thus  far,  in  order  to  save  some  part  of  our  ancient 
and  venerable  institutions.  Our  County  Courts  amongst,  if  not  above  all  others. 
Sometimes,  I  think  gentlemen  only  mean  to  scare  me  now — but  I  am  scared  enough 
already  for  all  wise  purposes.    Scare  me  now  and  it  may  give  me  courage. 

There  is  a  great  deal  in  good  habits,  both  in  individuals  and  nations — Train  up  a 
child  in  the  way  that  he  should  go,  and  he  will  not  depart  from  it.  The  habits — I 
mean  the  political  habits  of  the  people  of  this  ancient  dominion,  are  good — peaceable — 
law-abiding — and  loyal  to  themselves  and  to  the  country.  Change  them  and  we  may 
change  the  whole  character  and  mural  influence  of  this  State,  so  happily  and  elo- 
quently pourtrayed,  on  yesterday,  by  our  venerable  Chief  Magistrate. 

I  think  it  is  stated,  perhaps  in  Mr.  Jefferson's  Notes,  that  our  present  Constitution 
is  first  written  instrument  of  the  kind,  in  the  history  of  man.  Shall  we  expunge 
it  from  our  records We  are  told  to  look  at  other  States— I  tell  other  States  to  look  at 
us.  They  are  looking  at  us,  and  with  an  anxiety  but  little  short  of  that  with  which 
our  own  people  are  looking  at  us.  The  children  of  Israel  wanted  a  King,  that  they 
might  be  like  the  nations  of  the  earth.  They  got  their  wish,  and  the  Chronicles  of 
those  Kings  shew  how  much  they  profited  by  it — I  am  no  prophet  to  say  what  our 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


519 


future  Chronicles  will  be.  but  if  the  page  is  as  fair  a  one,  and  if  our  people  shall  be 
as  happy  during  the  next  fifty  years,  we  will  have  made  a  lucky  escape.  Let  others 
pioneer  for  us  and  make  experiments  ;  if  theij  succeed  better  than  ice  have  done,  they 
will  do  great  tilings,  and  we  can  profit  by  it 3  if  not,  they  may  live  to  profit  by  our 
experiment. 

We  are  all  making  a  grand  experiment.  Let  us  not  plant  the  whole  crop  in  pota- 
toes;  let  us  have  a  mixed  culture,  lest  we  all  come  to  want. 

There  is  no  disease  so  fatal  to  individual  man — and  it  must  also  be  so  as  to  man  in 
society — no  disease  which  Heaven  takes  so  little  care  to  relieve  him  from,  as  that 
which  he  brings  on  himself,  b}^  imagining  evils  which  do  not  exist  in  reahty .  All  such 
repininors  are  ingratitude  to  Heaven,  and,  in  individual  man,  too  often  end  in  suicide. 

I  say"l  feel  bound  in  justice  to  myself,  to  make  this  expose  ;  because  I  am  told  I  am 
counted  on  to  support  the  proposition  of  the  member  from  Frederick.  This,  I  admit, 
may  be  considered  as  trae.  provided,  nerertlieless,  that  he  and  his  friends  support  me 
in  the  great  and  leading  propositions  which  I  have  here  insisted  on ;  otherwise,  not. 
These  have  been  my  views,  and  I  have  always  intended  so  to  express  them. 

It  is  true,  I  have  been  something  like  the  man  who  sent  his  turkey  to  market  with 
a  note  tied  to  its  wing,  informing  all  concerned  that  he  asked  7s.  6d.  for  it,  but  if 
he  could  not  get  that,  he  would  take  6s.  Verily,  it  was  said  of  that  man,  that  he  was 
more  fool  than  knave.  It  does  not  become  me  to  pay  so  high  a  compliment  to  my- 
self: and,  perhaps,  I  would  not  have  been  able  to  do  so,  had  I  known  more  of  the  na- 
ture of  Legislative  proceedings. 

Be  this  though  as  it  may — I  feel  for  my  brethren  of  the  West — they  have  suffered 
injury  and  injustice;  and  I  don't  expect  them  to  be  as  reasonable  in  their  demands, 
as  otherwise  they  ought  to  be;  but  there  is  a  point,  beyond  which,  I  can't  go.  We 
may  go  on  a  while  longer  to  try  our  strength  ;  but  if  we  can  finally  adopt  amendments, 
such  as  I  have  indicated,  and  iio  more,  we  will  have  done  much  good;  and  I  Jnanbly 
trust,  will  have  done  no  injury  which  that  good  will  not  compensate  us  for.  We  can't 
adjourn,  either  until  next  October,  or  sine  die,  if  we  have  it  in  our  power  to  do  this,  by 
a  respectable  majority. 

It  may  be  though,  that  some  of  the  various  propositions,  lately  offered,  will  be  more 
acceptable,  and  command  a  larger  majority  than  what  I  have  thus  proposed.  It  may 
be  thought  most  advisable  to  adopt  some  one  of  those  schemes,  even  at  the  expense  of 
much  which  I  hold  so  dear.  Be  it  so.  I  suppose  we  must  try  it.  If  we  fail,  we  have 
only  to  turn  back  and  see  whether  there  is  any  thing  good  in  my  poor  efforts. 

I  won't  give  up  the  ship  yet. 

I  have  the  consolation,  too,  to  stand  alone — my  sin  is  on  my  men  head — my  colleagues 
are  not  committed;  and  my  people  will  hear  of  my  course  time  enough,  I  trust,  to  re- 
call me,  if  I  am  going  wrong. 

I  myself  may  think  some  of  those  schemes  better  than  my  own;  and,  at  all  events, 
if  I  think  any  or  all  of  them  better  than  that  which  is  offered  by  the  member  from 
Frederick,  so  long  as  that  is  unaccompanied  by  a  willingness  to  accede  10  my  terms,  I 
must,  of  course,  vote  for  them. 

Let  us,  in  some  way,  become  reconciled  to  each  other.  The  people  of  the  West 
can't  do  without  us,  nor  can  the  people  of  the  East  do  without  them — neither  of  them 
can  do  without  the  internal  improvement  of  the  country.  This  is  now  beginning  fully 
to  be  felt  below. 

Be  ye  reconciled  one  to  the  other  ;  and  there  will  be  joy  in  Heaven,  and  peace  on  earth, 
and  good  will  towards  men. 

]\Ir.  Summers,  after  some  prefatory  remarks,  offered  the  following  amendment, 
which  he  intended  only  as  expressive  of  the  general  principle  he  wished  to  see  adopted, 
leaving  the  details  to  subsequent  arrangement: 

Resolved,  That  each  county  ought  to  be  divided  into  wards,  so  that  there  shall  be 
not  less  than  three,  or  more  than  seven  in  any  one  county :  that  there  ought  to  be 
elected  in  each  ward,  by  the  voters  qualified  to  vote  for  members  of  the  House  of  De- 
legates, one  Commissioner,  and  that  the  Commissioners  elected  in  the  several  wards, 
ought  to  form  a  Board  of  Police  for  their  respective  counties. 

Resolved,  That  the  Commissioners  of  Police  ought  to  go  out  of  office,  one  at  the 
end  of  each  year,  to  be  determined  in  the  first  instance,  by  lot;  and  that  successors 
ought  to  be  elected  by  their  respective  wards,  to  serve  for  a  number  of  years  equal  to 
the  number  of  Commissioners  in  such  county,  so  that  one  Commissioner  of  Pohce 
may  be  chosen  in  each  county  at  every  annual  election. 

Resolved,  That  the  Boards  of  Pohce  ought  to  be  charged  with  the  superintendence 
and  direction  of  the  fiscal  concerns  of  their  respective  counties — with  power  to  assess, 
levy,  and  cause  to  be  collected,  all  local,  county,  or  ward  taxes,  and  to  direct  the  dis- 
bursement of  the  same,  to  superintend  all  provisions  and  expenditures  for  the  support 
of  the  poor,  and  that  the  opening,  preserving,  and  improving,  of  the  public  roads  and 
other  highways,  with  the  erection  of  bridges,  and  other  public  structures,  ought  to  be 
confided  to  the  Boards  of  Pohce. 


520 


DEBATES   OP  THE  CONVENTION. 


Resolved,  That  it  ought  to  be  the  duty  of  the  several  Boards  of  Police  from  time 
to  time,  or  whenever  required  by  the  Governor,  to  recommend  to  him  suitable  persons 
to  fill  the  offices  of  justice  of  the  peace,  and  to  make  any  other  recommendations,  and 
perform  such  other  duties,  as  may  be  required  by  law. 

"  Resolved,  That  the  proceedings  of  the  several  Boards  ought  to  be  recorded  and 
preserved  by  such  officer  as  the  General  Assembly  shall  designate,  and  that  the  Com- 
missioners ought  to  receive  a  moderate  compensation  for  their  services,  to  be  ascer- 
tained by  law,  and  paid  out  of  the  county  funds. 

"  Resolved,  That  each  Commissioner  of  Police  ought  to  be  a  conservator  of  the  peace 
within  his  county,  and,  if  holding  no  office  or  employment  incompatible  with  that  of 
justice  of  the  peace,  ought  to  be  included  in  the  Commission  of  the  Peace." 

Mr.  S.  explained  and  defended  his  amendment,  objecting  to  the  power  of  taxation 
now  deposited  with  the  County  Courts,  and  also  their  power  to  fill  the  vacancies  in 
their  own  body.  If  these  two  features  were  removed,  he  should  desire  the  County 
Court  system  to  continue  :  if  not,  he  should  be  opposed  to  giving  them  a  Constitu- 
tional perpetuity. 

The  amendment  was  referred  to  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  and  ordered  to  be 
printed. 

The  House  then  went  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  Stanard  in  the  Chair. 

Mr.  Bayly  explained  more  fully  the  ground  he  had  taken  j^esterday  in  reply  to  Mr. 
Giles,  referring  more  at  large  to  the  opinioiis  of  Mr.  Jefferson,  expressed  in  conversa- 
tion shortly  before  the  Staunton  Convention.  Mr.  B.  then  went  into  an  explanation 
of  the  course  he  had  taken  during  Mr.  Jefferson's  administration,  shewing  how  far  he 
had  approved,  and  on  what  points  he  had  dissented  from  Mr.  Jefferson's  policy. 

Mr.  Henderson  considering  the  question  in  relation  to  the  County  Courts  as  of  minor 
importance,  in  comparison  with  the  great  questions  of  Representation  and  the  Right 
of  Suffrage,  moved  to  pass  over  for  the  present  the  report  of  the  Judiciary  Committee 
and  take  up  that  of  the  Legislative  Committee. 

Mr.  Leigh  remonstrated  against  this  course,  as  the  gentleman  who  was  to  fill  the 
place  of  Mr.  Mennis  had  not  yet  arrived,  and  another  gentleman  on  that  side  of  the 
House  was  absent. 

Mr.  Henderson,  to  meet  this  objection,  offered  himself  to  withdraw,  should  any  vote 
be  taken,  calculated  to  settle  important  and  controverted  questions,  which  would  ba- 
lance the  absence  of  the  new  Delegate:  as  to  the  other  case,  absences  would  always 
be  occurring  on  both  sides,  and  furnished  no  just  cause  for  delay.  He  hoped  they 
should  proceed  to  take  the  question  without  much  debate,  after  the  authors  of  the  seve- 
ral projets  had  been  heard. 

Mr.  Leigh  objected,  assuring  gentlemen  that  no  turning  question  would  be  taken 
without  much  and  strenuous  debate. 

Mr.  Cooke  was  also  opposed  to  the  motion  of  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun. 

After  a  remark  or  two  from  Mr.  Henderson,  the  question  was  taken  on  passing  over 
the  Judicial  report,  and  negatived— Ayes  27. 

Mr.  Doddridge  confessing  his  mind  to  be  so  much  engrossed  with  the  more  impor- 
tant questions  pending,  that  it  was  with  difficulty  he  could  bring  it  to  the  subject  be- 
fore the  Committee,  moved  an  adjournment. 

But  the  motion  was  unsuccessful — Ayes  36,  Noes  48. 

The  Committee  then  returned  to  the  consideration  of  the  report  of  the  Judiciary 
Committee,  and  the  question  still  being  on  the  motion  of  Mr.  Bayly,  to  strike  out  in 
the  first  resolution  of  that  Committee,  the  words,  "  and  in  the  County  Courts:" 

Mr.  Henderson  said,  he  reluctantly  engaged  in  the  discussion  of  this  subject;  and 
that  he  would,  certainly,  have  declined  it,  had  not  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield, 
(Mr.  Leigh,)  gone  into  an  argument  last  evening,  after  he,  Mr.  H.,  had,  in  order  to 
save  the  time  of  the  Committee,  proposed  to  wave  further  debate.  Mr.  H.  stated 
that,  in  supporting  the  motion  to  strike  out  the  words  "  County  Courts,"  and  to  insert 
''justices  of  the  peace,"  it  was  his  wish  to  vest  the  judicial  power  of  the  Common- 
wealth in  the  Court  of  Appeals,  the  Superior  Courts,  meaning  the  General  Court, 
the  Circuit  and  Chancery  Courts,  or  such  substitutes  fur  them  as  legislative  wisdom 
might  devise,  and  in  the  justices.  Thus  the  County  Courts  would,  like  the  Chancery 
and  Circuit  Courts,  be  alterable  as  the  interests  of  the  State  required.  The  gentle- 
man had  asked  if  it  was  the  policy  of  the  friends  of  the  motion  to  distinguish  the 
Court  of  Appeals,  and  place  it  above  the  controul  of  the  Legislature  ?  Surely,  said 
Mr.  H.  no  lawyer  of  experience  will  require  argument  to  prove  that  the  Supreme 
Appellate  Tribunal  of  the  State  should  have  its  foundations  firmly  laid  in  the  organic 
law.  It  is  clear  that  such  is  the  result  of  any  icritten  Constitution.  If  the  Legislatufe 
overstep  the  limits  of  the  Constitution,  there  must  be  a  tribunal  to  declare  its  acts  in- 
valid :  it  would  be  a  mockery  to  place  this  tribunal  at  the  mercy  of  the  Legislature  ; 
a  solecism  in  politics.  From  this  reasoning  the  supremacy  of  the  Court  of  Appeals 
arises ;  and  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  will  be  the  last  man  to  controvert  the 
reasoning  or  to  deny  its  consequence.    Here  we  all  agree — farther,  in  giving  Con- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


621 


Btitutional  consecration  to  the  courts,  it  appears  to  me  we  are  forbiddeu  by  wisdom 
and  discretion  to  2"o.  The  great  principle  of  policy  which  founds  and  shields  the 
Court  of  Appeals,  has  no  sort  of  application  to  the  other  courts;  and,  least  of  all,  to 
the  County  Courts.  The  General  Court,  which  decides  ultimately  on  the  life  of  a 
citizen,  with  the  aid  of  a  jury,  and  the  Superior  Comrts  of  Chancery  as  well  as  law, 
are,  to  use  the  language  of  gentlemen,  to  be  subjected  to  the  whim  of  the  Legisla- 
ture/' while  the  County  Courts  are  to  be  placed  beyond  its  reach.  Is  this  wise  Is 
it  consistent  r  Is  it  not  slighting  the  superior,  and  nursing  the  inferior  ?  What,  in  the 
nature  of  things,  in  the  merits  of  the  subject,  justifies  this  inversion  of  the  order  of 
reasoning,  and  political  action  A  plain  man,  who  estimated  things  according  to  their 
actual  comparative  value,  would  be  surprised  to  hear  learned  gentlemen  consigning 
all  these  great  courts,  without  hesitation  or  regret,  to  the  ordinary  Legislature,  while 
they  declared  the  County  Courts,  too  precious  for  its  touch,  too  sacred  for  the  opera- 
tion of  the  discretion  of  tlie  Legislature,  or  the  judgment  of  the  people.  In  all  this, 
I  think.  I  can  discern  the  influence  of  habit,  and  the  delusion  of  prejudice. 

The  gentleman,  said  ^Ir.  H.,  treats  the  proposition,  which  I  have  the  honor  to  sup- 
port, as  if  it  went  directly  to  the  abolition  of  the  County  Courts.  This  is  not  true ;  and 
the  Committee  ought  not  so  to  regard  it.  I  propose  to  let  these  courts  stand  where 
their  superiors  stand,  at  the  disposal  of  the  Legislature,  asjhe  public  interest  may  require. 
It  is  due  to  candour  to  say,  that  I  am  decidedly  of  opinion,  they  ought  to  be  abohshed; 
but  the  question  of  their  continuation,  or  abolition,  is  merely  sought,  by  our  plan,  to 
be  left  open:  wliile  by  that  of  our  opponents,  the  hands  of  the  iTegislature  are  to  be 
always  tied,  whatever  maybe  the  course  of  public  opinion  ;  vrhatever  the  exigencies 
of  the  State  in  all  future  time  may  require.  Compare  our  views  farther.  We  say, 
if  these  courts  are  good,  and  tire  community  prefers  them,  tlie  Legislature,  which 
speaks  its  voice,  will  retain  them  ;  if  bad,  it  will  remove  or  change  them.  What  is  the 
language  of  our  opponents?  Consecrate  them.  Retain  them  forever.  Silence  puhhc 
opinion  on  tlie  subject."  Is  not  this  a  tacit  admission,  either  that  the  courts  will  fall 
by  their  own  weakness,  or  that  the  people  are  not  to  be  permitted  to  judge  for  them- 
selves in  their  behalf?  The  organic  law  ought  to  be  simple  ;  it  should  establish  and 
sanctify  great  principles  which  are  true  now,  always  have  been  true,  and  ahvays  must 
be  true,  embracing  details  so  far  only  as  may  be  necessary  to  carry  those  principles 
into  action.  All  the  rest  is  a  fair  and  proper  subject  for  the  operation  of  pubhc  opinion 
and  the  public  interests,  as  new  lights,  or  varying  circumstances  demand  modifications 
or  changes. 

Gentlemen  insist  that  these  institutions  are  the  fittest  imaginable ;  that  they  are  full 
of  wisdom,  that  their  decisions  are  oflener  affirmed  by  the  Court  of  Appeals  than 
those  of  the  Superior  Courts  of  Law  and  Equity.  Let  us  examine  this  matter.  A 
man  cannot  make  a  boot,  give  an  opinion  as  a  lawyer,  build  a  house  :  in  short,  he  can 
do  nothing  which  requires  skill  and  knowledge,  in  any  department,  without  previous 
stud}'  or  instruction.  Yet  law,  the  most  difficult  of  all  sciences,  is  to  be  seized  by  in- 
tuition. 3Ien  are  to  be  born  judges,  as  they  are  said  to  be  born  poets.  I  should  be 
glad  to  know.  Sir,  if  gentlemen  would  test  the  sincerity  of  this  declaration  by  taking 
the  opinion  of  an  ordinary  County  Court  justice,  rather  than  that  of  the  gentleman 
from  Chesterfield,  when  their  farms  are  at  stake.  That  gentleman  told  us,  the  other 
day,  tiiat  his  child  was  sick.  I  take  leave  to  ask  hun  a  question.  Did  he  send  for  a 
justice  of  the  peace,  a  lawyer  or  a  carpenter  to  prescribe  to  the  interesting  object  of 
his  affections,  or  did  he  call  in  a  physician?  one  skilled,  studied,  practised  in  the 
healing  art?  The  answer  is  easily  known.  Such,  jNIr.  Chairman,  is  the  difierence 
between  the  speculations  and  the  conduct  of  ingenious  gentlemen.  But  the  argu- 
ment in  favour  of  the  superior  capacity  of  the  justices  proves  too  much;  else,  our 
courts  are  radically  wrong  in  their  structure.  If  they  are  thus  v,dse,  why  have  any 
Superior  Courts  or  Appellate  Courts  at  all?  Why  not  Test  all  our  rights  upon  their 
decisions  at  once,  and  avoid  the  vast  delays  and  charges  of  appellate  litigation  ?  Surely 
we  ought  either  to  do  this,  or  to  make  the  Court  of  Appeals.  For  if  it  be  true,  that 
the  less  law  a  man  knows  the  better  judge  he  is,  the  magistrates  are  certainly  better 
judges  than  those  who  sit  on  the  bench  of  the  Court  of  i^ppeals.  But,  Sir,  it  is  not 
true  that  the  Court  of  Appeals  affirms  more  of  the  decisions  of  the  justices  than  of 
the  Superior  Courts ;  for,  of  twenty  decisions  of  the  County  Cotu:ts  that  go  to  the 
Superior  Courts  of  Law  and  Chancery,  not  more  than  one  is  taken  to  the  Court  of 
Appeals.  And  this  is  the  solution  of  the  paradox.  I  will  add  that,  if  the  judgments 
of  my  old  and  able  friend,  now  prevented  by  the  visitation  of  Heaven,  from  continu- 
ing to  the  tenth  Judicial  Circuit  his  useful  talents,  had  been  reversed  by  the  Court  of 
Appeals ;  or,  if  those  of  the  Chancellor  who  now  so  advantageously  acts  in  that  quar- 
ter of  the  State,  were  to  meet  a  similar  fate,  the  bar  of  the  country  would  douht  while 
it  submitted.  ^ 

Again,  it  is  urged  that  sound  policy  persuades  us  to  respect  the  habitudes,  and  the 
very  prejudices  of  a  people.  Admit  it:  is  not  this  appeal  referable  to  the  Legislative 
bodv  ratiier  than  to  the  Convention  ?    Gentlemen  assume  too  much  when  thev  sup- 

66 


522 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


pose  the  people  of  the  State  are  so  wedded  to  these  tribunals;  and,  if  they  were,  where 
is  the  danger  of  their  abolition  ?  Do  not  the  zeal  and  pertinacity  with  which  gentle- 
men refuse  to  trust  public  opinion,  clearly  shew  their  diffidence  of  that  attach- 
ment of  the  people  to  these  courts?  So  much  are  the  arguments  and  the  course 
of  gentlemen  at  war  with  each  other !  I  believe  it  is  true  that  in  the  lower 
country,  where  gentlemen  own  many  slaves  and  have  ample  leisure  ;  and  where 
there  is  less  enterprise  and  less  business,  these  tribunals  answer  well,  and  may  be 
well  approved.  JNot  so  in  the  upper  country  generally.  There  the  equal  division  of 
property,  the  necessity  that  men  are  under  to  attend  to  their  own  affairs,  with  many 
other  circumstances,  serve  to  make  these  courts  a  perfect  incubus.  Their  delays  in 
the  county  of  Loudoun  are  oppressive  in  the  extreme ;  and  their  expenses  vastly 
greater  than  those  of  the  Superior  Courts.  I  have,  said  Mr.  H.,  repeatedly,  and  al- 
most habitually,  advised  my  clients,  who  lived  any  vi'here  except  in  the  immediate 
neighbourhood  of  the  Court-house,  rather  to  abandon  small  disputed  claims,  than  put 
them  in  suit.  I  have  often  known  the  costs  in  such  cases,  without  including  extra- 
ordinary expenses  or  loss  of  time,  to  exceed  the  subject  of  claim;  and  witnesses  to 
attend,  on  the  courts,  at  such  loss  of  time  and  money,  that  it  would  have  been 
better  for  them,  far  better,  to  have  paid  the  claims  themselves.  Such  are  our  cheap 
tribunals — the  dearest  for  the  subjects  of  litigation,  in  the  world  ! 

The  gentleman  from  Orange  has  commended  these  courts,  and  has  informed  us 
that  he  is  a  pra,ctitioner  in  them,  of  a  quarter  of  a  century  standing.  And  so  am  I, 
Mr.  Chairman,  God  help  me  !  Of  a  disposition  more  churlish  or  less  grateful  than 
that  of  the  gentleman,  i  cannot  unite  in  his  praises.  The  gentleman  is  an  indus- 
trious man  :  by  day  he  rode,  and  was  compelled  to  trim  the  midnight  lamp,  in  order 
to  acquire  a  competent  knowledge  of  the  principles  of  his  vocation.  I  hope,  like  that 
estimable  gentleman,  I  am  not  indolent  or  idle.  Behold  the  result  of  the  action  of 
these  courts  upon  us.  We  hear  an  illustrious  gentleman,  the  colleague  of  the  gen- 
tleman from  Orange,  and  my  honoured  colleague,  termed  venerable.  I  fear,  Mr. 
Chairman,  if  grey  hairs  and  wan  faces  could  confer  the  title,  we  should  have  two 
venerable  gentlemen  from  Orange  and  Loudoun;  for,  truly  in  those  particulars,  I  fear 
we  may  compare  with  our  respected  colleagues.  Sir,  I  cannot  thus  deem  of  these  tribu- 
nals.  The  gentleman  from  Orange  seems  to  think,  that  these  County  Courts  are  ad- 
mirable machines  for  the  diffusion  of  political  information.  In  my  humble  opinion, 
they  are  better  calculated,  much  better,  for  the  diffusion  of  intemperance  amongst  th© 
people.  A  Court-house  or  a  tavern  is  a  poor  political  lecture-room.  And  I  cannot 
but  believe  this  idea,  which  I  have  heard  advanced  before,  to  be  quite  chimerical. 
Establish  good  schools.  Educate  your  people,  and  they  will  become  politicians  fast 
enough,  without  giving  you  the  trouble  to  make  courts  to  render  them  so.  The  true 
interest  of  individuals,  as  well  as  of  the  community,  is  to  interrupt  the  people  as  little 
as  possible  in  their  pursuits  of  industry,  and  their  domestic  quiet  and  purity.  Fre- 
qilent  assemblages,  in  lai-ge  numbers,  with  little  business,  lead  to  drunkenness  and 
vice.  Such  is  the  result  of  my  observation.  I  believe  it  is  correct  as  to  all  classes 
of  men. 

But,  Sir,  there  is  another  great  evil  incident  to  these  courts  :  they  tend  to  make  the 
lawyers  ignorant  arid  to  impart  that  ignoranee  to  the  benches  of  the  Superior  Courts. 
This  is  obvious  to  a  superficial  observer  :  and  it  is  a  great  pubfic  calamity.  Look  at 
the  matter.  How  little  legal  knowledge  suffices  to  fit  a  man  to  become  an  advocate 
in  such  a  court !  What  motive  is  there  to  study,  in  order  to  practice  successfully  in 
them  Is  not  the  capacity  to  ride  far  and  fast,  to  bear  the  inclemencies  of  the  weather, 
more  important  than  learning  ?  Is  not  assurance  more  valuable  than  mature  judgment.? 
Is  it  not  the  tendency  of  such  courts  to  make  a  lawyer  a  post-rider }  An  able  Judiciary 
is  an  inappreciable  treasure.  Who  will  expect  to  find  one  under  such  a  discipline 
From  such  a  bar  ?  What  is  your  situation  ?  What  your  prospects Are  you  to  find  all 
your  Judges  in  your  cities,  or  to  fill  your  benches  v/ith  lack-learning  lawyers .'' 

To  my  astonishment,  gentlemen  extol  these  courts  as  peculiarly  suited  to  the  in- 
terests of  orphans.  It  is  true.  Sir,  the  justices  are,  in  general,  worthy  men  ;  and  feel 
as  such  men  do,  for  the  fatherless.  Notwithstanding  this,  such  is  their  ignorance  of 
the  science  of  equity,  and  such  their  necessary  devotion  to  their  own  affairs,  that,  in 
the  region  of  country  where  I  live,  if  you  suppose  a  subject  too  small  for  the  cogni- 
zance of  the  Superior  Court  of  Chancery,  the  orphan  is  as  effectually  at  the  mercy 
of  an  adroit  and  unprincipled  fiduciary  character,  as  is  the  bleeding  lamb  at  that  of  the 
wolf  which  is  devouring  him.  Here  Mr.  H.  stated  facts  within  his  own  knowledge 
as  illustrative  of  the  superiority  of  the  orphan  system  of  Maryland,  and  commented 
upon  facts  stated  by  Mr.  Leigh.  Mr.  H.  adduced  other  examples  of  the  utter  incom- 
petency of  these  courts,  derived  from  counties  with  whose  business  he  was  acquainted, 
but  not  his  own.  The^  incidents  were  of  a  ludicrous  character,  and  were  avowed  to 
be  an  offset  to  anecdotes  of  a  similar  cast,  related  by  Mr.  Leigh,  which  went  to  bring 
into  disrepute  tribunals  in  Maryland  and  FennsyJvania,  which  Mr.  H.  contended, 
were  much  superior  to  our  County  Courts. 


DEBATES 


OF  THE 


CONVENTION. 


523 


Mr.  H.  declared  that  he  had  seen  magistrates,  not  in  the  county  of  his  residence,  in  a 
state  of  ebriety  on  the  bench;  that  such  spectacles  were  disgraceful;  and  remarked 
that,  if  he  had  not  been  misinformed,  in  one  of  the  counties  of  the  lowland,  so  much 
praised  by  the  gentleman,  a  recent  occurrence  had  taken  place  not  very  creditable. 
These  facts  were  painful  in  the  allusion  to  them,  or  reflection  upon  them;  but,  when 
an  interesting  subject  was  to  be  acted  on,  the  truth  should  be  revealed.  We  have 
been  repeatedly  told,  said  Mr.  H.,  that  we  were  a  great  and  happy  people,  and  that 
these  courts  contributed  much  to  the  production  of  these  felicitous  results.  It  is  dif- 
ficult to  conceive  how  such  causes  should  lead  to  such  consequences.  For  our  great- 
ness I  will  not  debate  it.  Others  may  possibly  be  regarded  as  better  judges  of  it.  At 
any  rate,  it  were  as  well  to  leave  them  to  proclaim  it.  But  we  are  exceedingly  happy. 
Happiness,  continued  Mr.  H.,  is  a  ditTicult  matter  of  investigation.  I  should,  how- 
ever, suppose,  take  them  ago:regately.  the  people  I  have  the  honor  to  represent  in  part 
were  somewhat  more  happy"than  those  of  lower  ^^irginia.  Butj  Mr.  Chairman,  did 
you  ever,  in  a  sickly  country,  ask  a  pale-faced,  feeble  anan  or  woman,  if  it  was  un- 
healthy in  the  neighbourhood  of  his  residence ;  Was  not  the  answer  "  oh  no,"  not 
immediately  hereabout,  but  in  the  neighbourhood  below  they  are  very  sickly  indeed, 
and  several  have  died  lately  ?  Did  you,  in  a  town  in  whose  streets  the  grass  that  grew 
up,  was  little  disturbed,  ask  if  com.merce  was  not  declining?  Was  not  the  answer, 

No  truly,  we  were  never  doing  better,  there  is  not  a  house  in  town  for  rent.'"'  Mr. 
Chairman,  I  will  not  dispute  our  greatness  :  it  were  invidious  to  do  so.  And  I  will 
leave  every  one  to  judge  of  his  own  happiness,  with  a  sincere  desire  that  it  may 
please  God  to  make  us  all  happy.  What  Cicero  predicated  of  immortality  may  be 
said,  with  equal  truth,  on  this  subject,  if  it  be  a  di-e<im  it  is  a  sweet  one."  However 
these  points  may  be  determined,  I  may,  without  incurring  the  imputation  of  temerity, 
assert  that  our  Coimty  Courts  have  never  rendered  us  either  great  or  happy. 

The  gentleman  asked  what  we  meant  to  spare  in  our  sweep  of  reform Let  him 
tell  me  what  he  means  to  surrender  of  the  abuses,  under  whose  united  pressm-e  we 
are  groaning?  I  am,  myself,  disposed  to  spare  all  that  is  right,  and  to  sweep  all  that  is 
wrong. 

It  is  not  to  be  inferred,  Mr.  Chairman,  by  the  course  of  my  argument,  that  I  feel 
the  smallest  disrespect  for  the  gentlemen  in  the  commission  of  tiie  peace,  especially 
in  the  county  of  my  residence  :  those  who  so  interpret  my  remarks  will  do  me  wrong. 
I  speak  against  the  tribunals.  Although  suitable  half  a  century  since,  I  pronounce 
them,  at  this  day,  and,  in  the  part  of  the  State  with  which  I  azn  conversant,  worn  out, 
and  unfit,  entirely  so,  for  the  end  of  their  institution.  I  am  confident  I  do  not  err, 
when  I  declare  that,  of  the  magistrates  of  the  county  of  Loudoun,  five  out  of  forty 
would  not  refuse  to  sign  a  petition  praying  the  abolition  of  their  court.  Many  of 
these  gentlemen  are  my  friends.  They  have  too  much  understanding  to  be  displeased 
with  me  for  endeavouring  to  prove  what  they  know  to  be  true,  and  to  promote  what 
they  ardently  wish. 

Mr.  Scott  bore  a  favorable  testimony  to  the  respectability  of  those  courts  in  Faii- 
quier  county. 

Mr.  Doddridge  next  addressed  the  Committee,  nearly  as  follows  : 
I  mean  not  to  enter  into  the  argument  of  the  proposition,  nor  to  say  whether  the 
County  Courts  ought  to  be  abolished  or  not.  That  has  been  done  by  others  and  is 
not  properly  under  consideration;  but  the  true  question  is,  shall  these  courts  exist  in- 
dependent of  the  Legislative  will,  and  above  that  will?  or,  shall  the  General  Assem- 
bly have  power  over  them  ?  The  other  day  a  gentleman  on  this  floor,  described  a  race 
of  politicians,  who  are  of  opinion  that  each  son  has  a  patent  right  to  be  wiser  than  his 
father.  But  neither  that  gentleman  nor  I  have  any  confidence  in  such  politicians.  I 
have  as  little  in  another  order  of  statesmen,  who  attribute  to  the  present  race,  superior 
wisdom  to  every  person  who  shall  follow  them  in  life,  or  in  oflice.  I  am  not  certain 
what  my  constituents  would  do  with  these  Courts,  if  it  were  left  to  them  to  retain  or 
put  them  down.  I  do  not  know  their  wishes  on  that  point,  but  I  do  know  that  they 
desire  them  to  be  placed  within  the  power  of  the  General  Assembly.  Should  the  pub- 
lic will  sustain  them,  they  will  be  sustained,  and  otherwise,  not. 

Doubtless  there  are  matters  which  should  be  unalterably  laid  deep  in  the  founda- 
tions of  the  Constitution — such  are  the  departments  of  Government — the  division  of 
their  powers,  and  a  reasonable  degree  of  Judicial  independence.  There  are  some 
powers,  from  the  exercise  of  which  the  Legislature  ought  to  be  restrained.  At  no 
time  should  an  ex  post  facto  law,  or  law  im.pairing  the  obligation  of  contracts  be  passed, 
nor  any  provision  for  suspending  the  writ  of  habccis  corpus  in  time  of  peace,  or  taking 
away  the  trial  by  jury,  in  criminal  cases. 

The  County  Courts  are  inferior  tribunals,  and  to  place  them  on  Constitutional  foun- 
dations, is  to  suppose  that  at  no  future  time  and  under  no  possible  circumstances,  will 
it  be  wise  to  change  them  for  some  other  establishments  more  suited  to  the  times  ;  and 
by  placing  these  courts  above  the  General  Assembly,  we  put  them  beyond  the  con- 
troul  of  the  people,  and  we  should  not  do  this,  unless  we  are  satisfied  that  the  judg- 


524 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION, 


ment  of  posterity  cannot  be  safely  trusted  to  meddle  with  even  County  Courts.  I 
hope,  therefore,  they  will  be  left  within  the  scope  of  Legislative  power, 

Mr.  Marshall  wished  to  offer  a  few  observations,  merely  with  a  view  to  put  gentle- 
men on  a  right  footing,  as  to  the  nature  of  the  question.  They  spoke  of  the  County 
Courts,  as  if  the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee  proposed  to  perpetuate  them  in 
precisely  their  existing  form,  and  with  their  present  powers.  They  speak  of  the  un- 
ritness  of  those  courts  for  all  the  jurisdiction  they  now  possess;  and  if  they  prove,  or 
think  that  they  prove  that  the  present  organization  of  those  courts  can  be  improved,  they 
think  they  have  thereby  proved  that  this  clause  ought  to  be  stricken  out.  But  the 
whole  jurisdiction  of  the  County  Courts  is  submitted  to  the  Legislature ;  the  Legisla- 
ture may  take  away  the  whole  of  it,  and  leave  them  to  exist  in  Ibrra  only.  What  in- 
jury will  ensue?  no  salaries  will  be  taken  away.  The  form  of  a  County  Court  will 
be  left  in  existence,  but  without  any  power.  Can  they  do  any  injury  ?  But,  if  they 
cease  to  be  nominal,  they  cease  to  be  real.  While  they  exist,  they  are  capable  of  re- 
ceiving any  jui'isdiction  the  Legislature  may  choose  to  give  them.  But  if  they  do 
not  exist,  they  can  have  no  jurisdiction.  Gentlemen,  therefore,  mistake  the  question, 
and  speak  to  a  matter  not  before  the  Committee,  when  they  shew  that  these  courts 
can  be  modified  to  advantage.  Some  gentlemen  are  opposed  to  the  mode  of  appoint- 
ment in  these  courts;  but  that  question  is  not  before  the  Committee.  For  myself,  I 
prefer  the  existing  mode ;  others  may  differ  from  me.  Let  the  mode  of  continuing 
them  be  changed,  still  the  courts  themselves  will  be  preserved.  We  have  not  reached 
the  resolution  which  provides  for  that ;  when  we  shall  reach  it,  if  gentlemen  wish  the 
general  system  preserved,  but  the  mode  of  appointment  changed,  they  can  give  their 
opinions  then.  That  question  is  not  now  before  the  Committee.  The  only  question 
is,  whether  the  form  of  the  County  Courts  shall  be  preserved.  When  gentlemen  say 
that  to  strike  this  clause  from  the  resolution  amounts  to  nothing,  and  that  the  courts 
nevertheless  may  still  be  preserved,  I  beg  leave  to  repeat,  that  if  the  form  of  the  reso- 
lution remains  and  you  strike  out  the  words  "and  in  the  County  Courts,"  you  take 
away  from  those  courts  all  capacity  to  receive  Judicial  power,  and  do  not  leave  the  Le- 


stands.  It  may  indeed  be  altered,  so  as  to  leave  all  the  jurisdiction  in  the  power  of 
the  Legislature,  and  I  wish  they  would  suggest  such  an  alteration.  But  as  the  reso- 
lution is  now  drawn,  if  you  strike  out  this  clause,  you  leave  the  County  Courts  inca- 
pable of  receiving  any  Judicial  power  whatever.  You  enumerate  all  the  tribunals 
which  are  to  possess  Judicial  power;  and  tribunals  not  in  the  resolution,  can  have 
none.  Let  it  be  recollected  that  all  the  various  services  performed  by  these  courts, 
and  which  were  enumerated  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  (Mr.  Leigh,)  are 
portions  of  Judicial  power. 

Mr.  Doddridge  asked,  what  it  w^as  that  rendered  it  impossible  that  these  courts  could 
receive  Judicial  power,  if  the  express  mention  of  them  were  stricken  out. 

Mr.  Marshall  replied,  that  it  was  because  the  resolution  professes  to  enumerate  all 
the  courts  in  which  the  Judicial  power  of  the  Commonwealth  was  to  be  reposed.  If 
County  Courts  are  stricken  out  from  that  enumeration,  they  will  be  incapable  of  receiv- 
ing any  part  of  that  power.    Why  should  this  be  done  ? 

Mr.  Henderson  said  he  differed  from  the  opinion  just  expressed.  Supposing  the 
clause  to  be  stricken  out,  the  County  Courts  would  still  be  included  under  the  words 
of  the  clause  immediately  preceding,  viz :  "  such  Inferior  Courts  as  the  Legislature 
shall  from  time  to  time  ordain  and  establish." 

Mr.  Marshall  said,  he  was  truly  sorry  so  often  to  trouble  the  Committee,  but  he 
wished  to  remove  a  misunderstanding  which  seemed  to  have  obtained.  If  gentlemen 
would  look  at  the  residue  of  the  resolution,  they  would  perceive  that  it  goes  on  to  give 
salaries  to  all  the  Judges  of  the  Inferior  Courts.  This,  surely,  does  not  extend  to 
County  Courts. 

It  was  plain,  therefore,  that  the  resolution  does  not  comprehend  County  Courts, 
when  it  speaks  of"  other  Inferior  Courts,"  but  means  to  designate  them  by  the  spe- 
cific and  appropriate  term. 

Mr.  Powell  opposed  the  amendment,  and  testified  to  the  manner  in  which  the  law 
business  of  his  own  county,  (Frederick)  had  been  conducted  for  the  last  five  years, 
during  which  they  had  for  the  most  part  been  without  any  Circuit  Court  Judge.  He 
eulogized  the  magistrates  of  that  county — and  attributed  the  opposite  experience  of 
Mr.  Henderson,  to  the  peculiar  character  of  the  people  of  Loudoun,  consisting  of  a 
mixture  of  persons  from  without  the  Commonwealth — while  those  of  Frederick  were 
of  the  true  old  Virginia  stock. 

Mr.  Mercer  protested  against  such  comparisons  as  unparliamentary.  He  vindicated 
the  character  of  the  citizens  of  Loudoun  with  much  animation. 

Mr.  Powell  explained.  The  people  of  Loudoun  might  be  worthy,  honest  and  indus- 
trious, and  yet  not  fit  to  make  County  Court  magistrates. 

Mr.  Leigh  went  again  into  the  defence  and  eulogy  of  the  County  Courts :  adverted 
to  their  criminal  jurisdiction,  particularly  over  slaves,  and  insisted  that  that  jurisdic- 


I  speak  of  the  resolution  as  it  now 


DEBATES   OF  THE   CONVENTION.  625 

tion  could  not  so  well  be  lodged  any  where  else.  He  dwelt  on  their  value  as  a  school 
for  young  practitioners ,  in  which  all  the  greatest  men  of  the  State  had  at  first  been 
trained.  He  remarjied  on  the  peculiar  situation  of  Loudoun,  and  charged  upon  that 
county  the  chief  ageiicy  in  introducing  the  Circuit  Court  system  into  Virginia,  which 
made  no  provision  m  case  of  the  sickness  of  the  Circuit  Judge. 

He  replied  to  the  arguments  of  Air.  Henderson — urging  the  power  of  a  jury  to  judge 
of  law  as  well  as  of  fact,  as  a  reply  to  that  part  of  bis  speech,  in  which  he  had  urged 
ignorance  of  law  and  equity  as  an  argument  against  the  County  Courts.  As  to  their 
power  to  recommend  suitable  persons  for  magistrates,  the  Executive  must  act  on  some 
recommendations,  and  it  was  better  they  should  be  given  openly  than  in  a  secret  and 
irresponsible  manner. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke,  rose  to  address  the  Committee: 

Mr.  Chairman, — We  have  now  got  the  County  Court  system  fairly  and  fully  before 
us.  The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  has  even  gone  into  the  mode  of  appointino-  the 
justices,  i  rose  some  time  ago  to  make  a  remark  in  reference  to  the  construction 
given  to  the  first  resolution  of  the  report  of  the  Judicial  Committee,  by  the  honorable 
gentleman  from  Richmond,  (Mr.  Marshall).  I  rise  now  to  do  more ;  to  carry  my  re- 
marks a  little  further.  He  supposes  that  the  Judicial  power  vested  in  these  courts  by 
the  Constitution  will  be  unappropriated,  if  they  should  cease  to  be  Constitutional  Courts. 
I  had  thought  that  it  would  still  continue  in  the  Inferior  Courts,  of  which  the  County 
Courts  to  be  established  by  the  Legislature  would  be  one. 

You  know,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  the  County  Courts  were  once  rejected  as  Constitu- 
tional courts,  in  the  Judicial  Committee.  You  moved  for  a  re-consideration,  a  member 
being  then  present  who  was  absent  when  they  were  rejected — they  were  then  carried 
by  one  of  a  majority,  one  of  the  friends  of  reform  being  absent.  Tiiis  fact  will  shew 
that  the  report  of  this  Judicial  Committee,  at  the  head  of  which  is  the  venerable  gen- 
tleman from  Richmond,  is  not  to  be  regarded  with  all  the  authority  wliich  is  com- 
monly attached  to  the  reports  of  Committees. 

On  the  24th  of  October,  I  had  the  honor  to  present  to  the  Convention  a  substitute 
for  the  first  resolution,  which  embraced  the  amendment  now  under  consideration. 
That  substitute  presented  a  Court  of  Appeals  and  such  Inferior  Courts  as  the  Legisla- 
ture might  from  time  to  time  ordain  and  establish,  as  the  only  Constitutional  Courts; 
leaving  it  to  the  wisdom  and  experience  of  the  Legislature  to  establish  and  regulate 
County  Courts,  as  in  their  wisdom  might  seem  good.  This  was  placing  the  utility  of 
these  courts  where  we  humbly  conceived  it  ought  always  to  rest,  under  the  supervi- 
sion of  future  Legislative  bodies. 

I  have  been  disappointed  in  the  mode  of  defence  adopted  by  the  gentlemen  who 
are  for  giving  them  a  Constitutional  existence  and  character.  They  are  for  proving^ 
their  claims  to  such  a  distinction  from  testimony.  One  of  the  most  illustrious  sages 
which  Vhginia  has  produced,  the  immortal  Jefterson,  has  testified  against  them.  His- 
testimony  has  been  assailed  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  (Mr.  Leio-h)  on  tha 
ground  of  incompetency;  for,  says  he,  Mr.  Jefferson  never  practised  law  before  a 
Count}''  Court,  consequently  could  know  little  about  tliem.  But  I  am  informed  by 
a  gentleman  on  my  left,  that  he  was  a  justice  of  the  peace,  and  sat  upon  the  bench  of 
his  own  county,  and  therefore  had  the  best  opportunity  of  testing  their  merits.  But 
the  venerable  gentleman  from  Amelia,  (Mr.  Giles)  has  eulogized  them.  The  gentle- 
man from  Orange,  (Mr.  Barbour,)  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  (Mr.  Johnson,)  and 
other  gentlemen  from  different  quarters,  have  given  their  testimony  in  favor  of  them  : 
Some  of  them  too  from  the  experience  of  twenty-five  years.  They  affirm  that  they 
are  one  of  the  wisest  and  most  beneficial  institutions  in  the  country,  if  not  in  the 
world.  Now,  without  imputing  any  thing  to  their  motives,  or  to  their  capacity  to 
judge  of  them,  so  far  as  their  experience  bas  gone,  I  may  be  permitted  to  remark,  that 
the  relations  in  which  we  stand  to  persons  and  things,  and  the  media  through  which 
we  view  them,  generally,  and  often  imperceptibly,  influence  our  judgment,  and  lead 
us  to  very  different  conclusions.  Were  we,  Mr.  Chairman,  to  ask  the  Autocrat  of  all 
the  Russias,  what  he  had  to  testify  concerning  the  Government  over  which  he  pre- 
sides, he  would  doubtless  say  it  was  the  best  on  earth.  Were  we  to  ask  the  Kino-  of 
Great  Britain  what  he  thinks  of  the  Constitution,  Government,  and  laws  of  England, 
he  would  doubtless  say  they  approacbed  almost  to  perfection.  Yes,  Sir,  were  we  to 
ask  every  Peer  of  England,  every  member  of  tbe  House  of  Lords,  one  by  one,  what  is 
the  character  of  all  the  English  institutions?  each  and  everyone  of  them  would  doubt- 
less testify,  the  very  best  on  earth.  Thus,  Sir,  some  gentlemen  here  give  the  highest 
character  to  the  County  Courts ;  others,  however,  testify  against  them.  They  view 
the  system  through  different  media,  and  stand  in  different  relations  to  these  tribunals. 
But  as  we  have  heard  much  testimony  on  this  subject,  and  the  testimony  of  one  Go- 
vernor of  this  Commonwealth  in  favor  of  this  system,  we  shall  present  as  o.  per  contra^ 
the  testimony  of  another  Governor  of  this  same  Commonwealth. 

It  is  from  the  message  of  the  Governor  of  this  Commonwealth  in  the  year  1810, 
(Judge  Tyler).    Towards  the  conclusion  of  his  message,  he  gives  the  following  cha- 


526 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


racter  of  our  Virginia  County  Courts :  "  As  to  the  County  Court  system,  every  ex- 
perienced and  reflecting  man  must  see  and  feel  the  incompetency  of  those  persons 
whose  daily  avocations  prevent  any  acquisition  in  legal  knowledge,  to  discharge  the 
important  trust  reposed  in  them  of  deciding  between  man  and  man,  on  their  most  im- 
portant legal  and  equitable  rights.  Suppose  it  should  be  necessary,  as  it  often  is,  that 
instructions  should  be  moved  to  aid  the  jury  as  to  the  evidence  adduced  on  a  point  of 
law  arising  out  of  the  facts  of  a  cause,  what  respect  will  an  intelhgent  jury  pay  to 
them,  when  they  are  sensible  that  a  little  time  before  the  justices  were  only  jury-men, 
and  could  not  be  made  judges  of  the  law  by  a  mere  translation  of  them  from  a  jury- 
room  to  the  bench  ?  Tliey  would  in  such  a  case  (which  often  has  liappened)  act  for 
themselves,  well  knowing  that  the  blind  cannot  lead  the  blind.  Besides,  it  is  not  just 
to  call  for  so  much  public  duty  from  the  magistrates,  without  any  compensation,  ex- 
cept that  precarious  one  arismg  out  of  the  office  of  Sheriff,  which  may  be  obtained 
once  perhaps  in  the  course  of  one's  life.  At  present  a  Judge  rides  into  every  county 
of  the  State  ;  let  his  jurisdiction  therefore  be  extended  to  cases  generally,  and  limit 
the  County  Court  jurisdiction  to  local  matters,  and  to  cases  of  small  importance,  bring- 
ing back  the  out-oi-doors  authority  of  a  single  magistrate  to  what  it  formerly  was.  At 
any  rate  let  the  Superior  Courts  have  concurrent  jurisdiction,  and  leave  it  to  every 
man's  option  to  go  into  either  court  he  may  please. 

"  I  by  no  means  mean  to  detract  from  the  merit  of  the  County  Courts.  They  are  a 
valuable  branch  of  our  Government,  and  deserve,  in  general,  much  of  their  country. 
But  those  citizens  who  fill  the  high  office  of  dispensing  law  and  justice,  certainly 
should  be  better  qualified  for  so  great  a  trust.  And  it  is  no  reflection  on  those  who 
are  liberally  endowed  by  nature  or  a  superior  education,  to  say  that  they  may  not  be 
judges  of  law.  These  sentiments  I  submit  to  my  country,  with  all  due  deference. 
They  are  such  as  I  expressed  in  the  Legislature  tweiity- eight  years  ago,  and  1  never 
heard  a  reason  advanced,  which  made  me  doubt  for  a  moment  the  propriety  of  them." 

Thus  testifies  the  experienced  gentleman,  who,  at  that  time  presided  over  this  Com- 
monwealth ;  such,  he  adds,  was  the  conviction,  resulting  from  twenty-eight  years  ex- 
perience,-from  an  intimacy  of  more  than  a  quarter  of  a  century  with  those  tribunals. 
This  will  certainly  prove  my  proposition,  that  gentlemen  may  and  do  view  persons 
and  things,  through  different  relations  and  different  media. 

Without  hazarding  any  thing,  I  think,  Sir,  1  may  say,  more  of  the  happiness  of 
this  Commonwealth,  depends  upon  the  County  Government  under  which  we  live, 
than  upon  the  State  or  United  States'  Government.  The  more  we  circumscribe 
the  supervision  of  any  tribunal,  the  more  interest  we  feel  in  it,  and  the  more  happi- 
ness or  misery  it  bestows  upon  us.  The  more  you  enlarge  it,  the  less  interest.  And, 
tlierefore,  1  venture  to  affirm,  that  no  question  which  has  been  discussed  in  this 
Committee,  is  more  intimately  allied  to  our  interests,  or  more  conducive  to  our  po- 
litical happiness  or  misery,  than  the  very  question  now  before  us.  What  Govern- 
ment is  that.  Sir,  which  has  the  greatest  power  to  afflict  us,  or  make  us  happy  ?  It 
is  that.  Sir,  which  has  the  most  limited  jurisdiction ;  it  is  the  tribunal  of  our  own 
conscience.  TJre  quotation  elegantly  adduced  a  few  days  ago,  by  the  gentleman  from 
Chesterfield,  forcibly  applies  here.  "  Quis  exul  jaatria,  se  quoqiie  fugity  Self-go- 
vernment, the  government  of  our  own  passions,  appetites,  and  propensities,  more 
than  any  other  Government,  contributes  to  our  individual  happiness.  Next  to  this, 
family  government.  We  derive  much  of  our  social  happiness  lirom  domestic  govern- 
ment; because  we  are  always  under  its  influence.  For  the  same  reasons  we  are 
more  interested  in  the  County  Government  than  in  the  State,  or  United  States'  Govern- 
ment, and  more  of  our  happiness  depends  upon  it,  than  upon  any  other.  Not  merely, 
because  it  is  nigher  home,  but  because  w.e  have  more  to  do  with  it,  or  under  its  juris- 
diction. All  the  laws  of  the  Commonwealth,  reach  us  through  the  County  Govern- 
ment. No  matter  whence  the  laws  are  promulged,  they  first  reach  us  through  the 
county  tribunals. 

Now,  Sir,  the  citizens  of  any  county  in  this  Commonwealth,  have  no  more  control 
over  these  tribunals,  than  they  have  over  the  Government  of  France  or  England. 
They  never  created  the  officers  who  preside  on  the  benches  of  the  County  Courts, 
nor  the  ministers  who  execute  their  decisions.  We  live  under  a  Government  not 
amenable  to  us,  not  responsible  to  us;  because  not  created  by  us.  The  objections  to 
these  tribunals,  arise  from  the  manner  in  which  they  are  created,  from  their  incom- 
petency to  discharge  those  duties  assigned  them,  and  the  consequent  evil  influence 
which  they  may  exercise  over  the  destinies  of  a  county. 

I  heard,  with  much  regret,  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Powell,)  rise  to 
sustain  them :  1  say  regret,  because  I  have  heard  him  with  pleasure  support  the  most 
Republican  principles  on  this  floor.  But,  how  to  reconcile  these  tribunals  with  Re- 
publican Government,  I  know  not.  At  best,  they  are  elective,  and  most  generally 
terminate  in  a  hereditary  aristocracy.  How  a  republican  can  advocate  a  system, 
which,  forever,  puts  a  county  under  the  control  of  a  few  individuals,  without  a  per- 
fect abandonment  of  his  creed,  I  am  unable  to  perceive.    And  is  not,  Mr.  Chairman, 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


527 


every  county  in  tliis  Commonwealth,  by  the  system,  necessarily  subjected  to  the  go- 
vernment of  a  few  individuals  by  a  legal  investment  ? 

Let  us,  for  example,  place  before  us,  the  erection  of  a  new  county.  A  new  county 
and  a  new  court  are  by  the  same  authority  at  once  erected.  Some  four  or  five  justi- 
ces are  assigned  to  the  bench  of  this  new  county,  and  the  county  assigned  to  them. 
These  justices  are  to  nominate  their  successors  forever.  Thus  the  county  is  by  an  act 
of  incorporation,  or  a  charter,  or  by  whatever  instrument  you  may  please  to  call  it, 
signed,  sealed,  and  delivered  over  to  the  four  or  five  magistrates  first  appointed  and 
their  successors,  as  far  as  all  the  offices  of  trust,  honor,  and  profit,  as  far  as  the  public 
concerns  and  interests,  as  far  as  tlie  public  levies  and  their  appropriations  are  con- 
cerned, or  assignable;  they  are  all  given  over  by  one  general  deed  of  gift  to  these 
justices,  and  their  successors  forever. 

There  are  three  influences,  interests,  or  if  you  please,  Mr.  Chairman,  three  sorts  of 
pride,  to  which  this  countr}^  is  now  subordinate  }  I  mean,  religious,  family,  and  politi- 
cal pride. 

The  first  batch  of  justices,  we  shall  suppose,  are  either  all,  or  a  great  majority  of 
them,  of  one  religious  creed.  I  care  not  of  what  sect.  They  are  all  men  of  like 
passions.  They  have  sectarian  interests,  and  they  have  sectarian  pride.  Now,  if  they 
yield  to  the  temptation,  which  their  station,  and  office  present,  and  to  the  feelings 
which  the  sectarian  spirit  creates  and  cherishes,  will  they  not  have  the  opportunity, 
(and  will  they  not  most  hkely  embrace  it.)  of  nominating  .such,  and  such  only,  as  be- 
long to  their  own  party,  to  fill  all  vacancies  which  occur  in  their  body  ?  It  is  only 
necessary  to  show,  that  they  will  have  the  opportunity  to  do  so,  to  prove  the  system 
to  be  a  bad  one.  And  that  mankind  are  always  too  apt  to  secure  every  opportunity 
which  is  thrown  in  their  way,  to  aggrandize  their  own  interests,  and  gratify  their  own 
pride,  is  too  plain;  and,  alas,  too  true,  to  need  either  illustration  or  proof. 

It  is  not  necessary  for  me  to  prove,  that  such  has  always  been  the  case,  and  that 
such  must  always  be  the  issue  ;  but  that  it  may  be  so,  all  must  admit.  Thus,  one  party 
rides  triumphantly  in  the  county,  as  far  as  court  influences  are  concerned.  They  are 
the  court  party.  And  like  the  patented  creed  and  party  under  a  monarchy,  they  are 
wont  to  become  insolent  and  over-bearing.  I  %vish  to  give  no  opportunity  for  such  a 
state  of  things,  and  must  reprobate  every  system,  which  thus  creates  invidious  castes 
in  society. 

But  in  the  absence  of  such  feelings,  or  in  connexion  with  them,  there  is  still  a 
more  dangerous  domination  to  which  this  new  county  before  us  is  subjected.  The 
first  lot  of  justices  may  all  be  of  one  family  connexion,  either  related  by  affinity  or 
consanguinity.  If  this  be  the  case,  how  easy  will  it  be  for  them  to  concur  in  keeping 
all  the  offices  in  the  county  in  their  own  family  ?  And  if  they  should  not  all  be  of 
one  and  the  same  family,  but  of  two  or  three  families,  how  easy  for  them  under  this 
system  to  enter  into  a  co-partncrsldp  understanding,  and  by  a  sort  of  rotation  to  secure 
to  themselves  the  dominion  of  the  county  for  ages.'  And,  have  we  not  heard  that 
such,  even  to  this  day,  is  the  fact  in  sundry  of  the  old  counties  !  But  add  to  the 
family  the  religious  pride,  and  who  can  resist  their  united  influence 

But  there  is  yet  another  sort  of  influence,  which  we  choose  to  call  political,  because 
arising  from  those  parties  and  factions  which  have  existed  in  all  Governments,  and 
ever  will  exist,  so  long  as  men  are  governed  more  by  passions  and  interest,  than  by 
reason.  Latel}'^  it  was,  and  yet  in  some  degreee,  is,  Jackson  and  Adams.  It  has  been 
Federalist  and  Republican.  Now  the  first  appointment  of  magistrates  may  be  of  one 
political  creed,  or  of  another,  and  thus  an  undue  preponderance  is  given  to  that  which 
is  placed  upon  the  bench  without  the  hope  of  removal.  Thus  in  the  original  estab- 
lishment of  a  new  county,  and  a  new  court,  there  is  a  real  subordination  of  all  the 
interests  of  that  county,  as  respects  Government,  to  the  influence  of  either  religious, 
famil}'-,  or  political  pride,  cupidity  and  ambition,  and  sometimes  to  all  of  them  acting  in 
combmation.  iVnd  is  this  what  gentlemen  call  a  Republican  institution  .'  the  best,  the 
very  best,  which  human  ingenuity  can  devise,  and  which  the  world  has  ever  seen  !  ! 

Next  to  the  manner  of  creating  these  tribunals,  the  variety  of  powers  and  functions 
which  are  lodged  in  the  same  hands,  and  their  incompatibility  with  each  other,  have 
been  for  a  long  time  an  object  of  serious  and  just  complaint.  These  are  full}"  exposed 
in  the  very  learned  dissertations  of  a  highly  respectable  authority^,  (Judge  St.  Geo. 
Tucker.)  I  do  not  quote  his  words,  but  I  think  I  give  the  substance  :  Justices  of  the 
bench,  says  he,  as  such,  may  be  elected  to  either  branch  of  the  Legislature,  and  are 
very  frequently  elected  to  the  House  of  Delegates.  While  the  character  of  the  jus- 
tice is  merged  in  that  of  the  Legislator,  he  is  under  the  present  sj^stem.  Constitution- 
ally authorised  to  legislate  for  himself  He  may  enact  the  law  under  which  he 
chooses  to  officiate  at  home,  and  thus,  make  his  own  office,  what  he  wishes  it  to  be. 
He  can  also  in  part  create  the  Governor,  who,  is  afterwards  to  appoint  and  commis- 
sion such  of  his  friends  as  he  may  nominate  to  fill  vacancies  on  the  bench.  He  may 
also  assist,  in  creating  the  Judges  of  the  Supreme  Courts,  who,  are  to  judge  of  his  of- 
ficial proceedings.    As  Legislator,  he  may  create  Major  and  Brigadier  Generals  from 


528 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


amongst  his  friends  upon  the  bench,  if  he  pleases.  Under  the  present  system,  he 
may,  and  in  part  does,  create  and  govern  all  the  State  officers,  from  the  Treasurer 
down  to  the  State  Attorney  in  his  own  county. 

When  on  the  bench  at  home,  they  are  judges  in  all  cases  of  life  and  death,  when  a 
slave  is  to  be  tried,  and  of  all  offences  under  the  grade  of  felony.  They  constitute 
an  Examining  Court,  when  any  free  person  is  brought  before  them  accused  of  any 
crime  amounting  to  felony  at  common  law,  and  may  remand  him  for  a  trial  to  the 
District  Court,  or  discharge  him  as  they  think  proper.  The}'-  are  also  judges  in  all 
other  civil  causes  arising  within  the  county,  whatever  may  be  the  amount,  both  at 
common  law  and  equity,  and  without  appeal  when  the  sum  is  not  over  ten  dollars. 

As  police  officers,  they  open  roads,  build  bridges,  erect  prisons,  and  court  houses; 
and  levy  the  expenses  thereof  upon  the  county  ;  and  last  of  all,  recommend  to  the 
Executive,  whom  they  are  willing  to  admit  into  their  own  body. 

At  one  and  the  same  time,  they  may  be  the  Judges  of  the  County  Courts,  mili- 
tary officers  of  any  rank  whatever.  State  Legislators  and  members  of  Congress. 
They,  in  short,  unite  in  their  own  persons  all  sorts  of  powers,  Legislative,  Executive, 
Judicial,  military;  and  if  all  these  can  be  safely  lodged  in  the  same  hands,  and  at  the 
same  time,  then  it  must  follow,  and  undeniably  too,  that  all  the  doctrines  on  which 
our  political  system  is  founded  are  erroneous  and  fallacious. 

May  I  not  ask.  Sir,  what  are  the  fundamental  doctrines  of  our  Government  ?  Is 
not  the  following  one  of  them  ?  "  All  power  is  vested  in  and  consequently  derived 
from  the  people.  Magistrates  are  their  trustees  and  servants,  and  at  all  times  amena- 
ble to  them."  When  did  the  justices  of  the  peace  derive  their  power  from  the  people  ; 
and  how,  or  in  what  sense  are  they  responsible  or  amenable  to  them?  Why  then  hold 
this  doctrine  to  be  true,  and  deny  it  in  practice?  I  must  always  recur  to  fundamental 
principles,  for  one  good  reason,  because  I  cannot  reason  without  them.  If  I  mistake 
not,  it  is  written  in  the  sixth  article  of  our  Bill  of  Eights,  that  no  persons  in  this 
Commonwealth,  "  ought  to  be  taxed,  or  deprived  of  their  property  for  public  uses, 
without  their  own  consent  or  that  of  their  Representative  elected  by  them."  This  is 
deemed  essential  to  the  liberty  and  happiness  of  our  community.  Now,  I  ask,  do  not 
the  magistrates  composing  the  County  Courts  tax  us,  and  deprive  us  of  our  property 
for  public  uses  without  our  consent,  or  that  of  our  Representatives?  When  did  we 
authorise  them,  by  any  act  of  ours,  to  levy  taxes  upon  us  ?  They  have  no  more  right 
to  tax  us,  by  any  act  of  ours,  nor  according  to  the  doctrine  just  now  quoted,  than  we 
have  in  this  Convention  to  tax  the  citizens  of  Ohio.  It  is,  in  my  humble  opinion,  as 
real  a  grievance  of  which  we  complain,  resulting  to  us  from  this  system,  as  was  the 
complaint  of  this  Commonwealth  when  a  Colony,  against  the  right  usurped  by  the 
English  Government,  to  tax  us  without  our  own  consent,  or  that  of  our  Representa- 
tives. 

Does  not  another  of  our  political  maxims  teach — "  that  no  man,  or  set  of  men,  are 
entitled  to  exclusive,  or  separate  emoluments  or  privileges  from  the  community,  but 
in  consideration  of  public  services,  which,  not  being  descendible,  neither  ought  the 
offices  of  magistrate.  Legislator,  or  Judge,  to  be  hereditary  f  Does  not  the  County 
Court  system  virtually  repudiate  this  maxim  ?  Does  not  the  system  confer  exclusive 
privileges,  without,  and  anterior  to  any  public  services  ?  And  does  it  not  tend  to 
make  the  magistracy  hereditary  in  certain  families? 

But  again,  does  not  the  third  article  of  the  Constitution,  the  existing  Constitution 
of  this  Commonwealth,  declare,  that  "  the  Legislative,  Executive,  and  Judiciary  De- 
partments of  Government,  shall  be  separate  and  distinct,  so  that  neither  exercise  the 
powers  properly  belonging  to  the  other ;  nor  shall  ever  any  person  exercise  the 
powers  of  more  than  one  of  them."  This  is  clear  and  express.  But  mark  what  fol- 
lows— Except  that  the  justices  of  the  County  Courts  shall  be  eligible  to  either 
House  of  Assembly."  This  arbitrary  exception  shews,  that  it  is  not  compatible  with 
the  doctrine  of  the  framers  of  the  old  Constitution.  They  saw  it  was  incompatible 
with  the  truth  which  they  had  propounded,  and  declared  it  an  exccfption.  Why  was 
the  exception  made?  Tradition  informs  us,  that  most  of  the  influential  men,  in  v>'hat 
is  now  called  old  Virginia,  at  the  time  of  the  Revolution,  were  magistrates  on  the 
bench;  and  if  proscribed  from  the  Legislative  Hall,  it  would  have  endangered  the 
great  cause  of  liberty  and  the  rights  of  man ;  and  as  Virginia  wished  to  rally  all  her 
forces  and  to  concentrate  all  her  energies,  she  was  willing  to  make  an  exception  in 
favour  of  the  magistrates  of  that  day.  But  they  declared  it  an  inconsistency,  and  so  it 
is.  Attached  to  such  a  declaration,  it  is  as  incongruous,  as  if  to  a  series  of  laws  pro- 
hibiting murder,  it  were  added,  "  but  killing  a  man  is  not  murder."  But  time  has 
consecrated  the  exceiytion,  and  the  error  equally  with  the  principle;  and  many  are  as 
tenacious  now  of  the  exception  as  they  are,  yes,  more  than  they  are  of  the  principle 
from  which  it  is  an  exception.  However  well  it  may  have  operated  at  that  time, 
during  the  struggle  for  independence,  it  has  not  operated  so  well  since. 

The  Constitution  gave  the  magistrates  no  reward  whatever  for  their  services.  But 
m  making  them  eligible  to  the  General  Assembly,  it  put  it  in  their  power  to  provide 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


529 


for  themselves,  which  they  have  since  done.  It  is  known.  I  presume,  to  every  mem- 
ber of  this  Committee,  that  generally  a  quormn,  and  often  a  majority  of  the  House  of 
"Deleo'ates,  is  composed  of  magistrates,  sheriffs,  and  their  deputies.  Tradition  in- 
forms us,  that  such  a  Legislative  body  found  it  easy  to  seize  the  sheriffalty  and  to  attach 
it  to  their  own  office,  or  to  secure  it  by  way  of  an  indirect  compensation  for  their  ser- 
vices, so  indirect  as  not  to  disqualify  them  from  being  eligible  to  the  office  of  Legisla- 
tors. In  this  wav  they  dispense  justice  for  nothing  I  In  this  way  they  compensate 
themselves  I  Thus,  too,  the  sheriffs  are  irresponsible  to  the  people,  and  this  has  been 
a  arrievance  at  least  from  the  days  of  Patrick  Henry,  who  gives  them  the  following  ad- 
mirable character  in  one  of  his  speeches  in  the  Convention  which  ratified  the  Federal 
Constitution.  ■*  Our  State  sheriffs,  "  says  he,  those  unfeeling  blood-suckers,  have 
under  the  watchful  eye  of  the  Legislature,  committed  the  most  horrid  and  barbarous 
ravages  upon  our  people.  It  has  required  the  constant  vigilance  of  the  Legislature, 
to  keep  them  from  totallv  ruining  the  people.  A  repeated  succession  of  laws  has 
been  made  to  suppress  their  iniquitous  speculations  and  cruel  extortions,  and  as 
often  has  their  nefarious  ingenuity  devised  methods  of  evading  these  laws."'  Such 
was  the  character  of  the  sheriffs  in  those  days,  in  the  opinion  of  one  of  Virginia's 
most  distinguished  men.  It  must  often  be  so,  when  pubhc  functionaries  are  not  re- 
sponsible to  the  people. 

But  we  love  a  cheap  magistracy,  and  the  justices  serve  forTiothing  I  It  is  true,  they 
only  divide  among  them,  between  -50  and  60.000  dollars  per  annum,  in  the  way  of 
sheriffs'  fees.  Valuing  the  one  hundred  and  five  sheriffalties  in  this  CommonweeJth 
at  -500  dollars  per  annum,  we  can  easily  estimate  what  serving  for  nothing  means, 
when  applied  to  our  present  system.  They  are  paid  in  the  most  exceptionable  way, 
and  it  is  all  one  and  the  same,  whether  they  receive  the  amount  of  the  sheriffalty  in 
succession,  or  divide  it  annually  amongst  them  according  to  their  services  ;  it  is  stiU 
ijt  principle  a  compensation,  and  the  office  of  justice  is  so  far  lucrative. 

But,  some  o-entlemen  tell  us,  of  the  immense  expense  to  be  incurred,  by  chanodng 
the  present  svstem.  It  has  been  said  by  one  cri^ntleman,  (Mr.  Giles.)  that  if  the  ma- 
gistrates were  to  be  paid  only  *2u0  dollars  annually,  it  would  surpass  the  whole  reve- 
nue of  the  State.  And  this  is  to  affright  us  from  a  change  of  the  system.  But  if  the 
justices  of  Virginia  are  so  high-minded  as  to  serve  for  nothing  under  the  present  sys- 
tem, why  might  they  not.  if  found  expedient,  serve  under  another  system! ! 

I  had  intended,  to  take  some  notice  of  the  incGmpetency  of  these  tribunals  to  render 
satisfaction  to  the  community,  in  the  discharge  of  so  many  duties,  for  which  in  many 
parts  of  the  country  they  are  so  illy  qualified.  But  in  this,  I  have  been  preceded  and 
anticipated,  by  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  pir.  Henderson.)  who  has  gone  so  fully 
into  the  details.  I  feel  rather  disposed  to  examine  their  claims  to  Constitutional  con- 
secration upon  principle,  but  I  confess.  I  cannot  find  a  good  reason,  why  they  should 
not  be  committed  wholly  to  Legislative  jurisdiction  ancT  management.  To  the  prin- 
ciple on  which  the  County  Court  system  is  now  built,  I  have  insuperable  objections. 
It  is  at  variance  with  all  principle  and  precedent  in  these  United  States. 

Time  was.  when  ^lontesquieu  wais  considered  as  high  authority  in  matters  of  this 
sort :  and  what  does  Montesquieu  say  of  the  principle  on  which  our  County  Courts 
are  founded?  His  words  are,  ••'  In  a  Republic,  if  any  body  of  magistracy,  have  the 
power  of  jiUins  tacancies  occurring  in  their  own  body,  or  of  appointino-  their  own 
successors  ;  if  they  once  become  corrupt,  which  in  all  probability  will  be  the  case, 
the  evil  will  become  incurable,  because  corrupt  men  will  appoint  corrupt  successors." 
Is  this  true  or  is  it  false  ?  Is  it  entitled  to  no  weight :  to  no  consideration  on  this  ques" 
tion.'  I  think  it  is.  If,  let  me  ask,  one  body  of  Judges  may  appoint  their  own  suc- 
cessors, why  may  not  another  body  ?  "Why  not  then  penuit  the  Judges  of  the  Infe- 
rior Courts,  of  the  Court  of  Appeals,  to  appoint  their  own  successors.-  Certainly 
they  are  as  competent  as  the  judges  of  the  County  Courts  I  I  might  here  appeal  to; 
nay,  I  might  ask  the  venerable  gentleman  from  Richmond,  the  Chief  Justice  cf 
these  United  States,  would  he.  with  all  his  wisdom  and  experience,  undertake  to  ap- 
point his  successor?  and  if  not,  would  he  sanction  cind  consecrate  this  principle  and 
this  practice,  in  any  other  body  of  Judofes? 

But  some  gentlemen  eulogize  these  tribunals  and  the  whole  svstem  as  the  wisest 
in  the  world.  One  thing  only  is  wanting  to  give  them  the  highest  dignity,  and  to 
entitle  them  to  the  unqualified  approbation  of  some,  and  that  would  seem  to  be,  to  in- 
vest them  with  the  power  of  filling  all  vacancies  in  the  Legislative  Assemblies;  to 
give  them  the  right  to  elect  all  our  R.epresentatives.  Tliis  they  virtually  do  in  some 
instances  already,  by  the  exclusive  privileges  which  they  now  possess.  But  to  invest 
them  with  this  exclusive  privilege,  would  prevent  those  tumults  and  cabals  attendant 
on  elections,  and  thus  give  perfect  peace  to  the  Commonwealth  I 

But.  I  have  yet  to  learn,  why  the  corporate  towns  in  this  Commonwealth,  Rich- 
mond. Petersburg,  ^Norfolk,  &c.  can  elect  their  magistrates,  who  are  at  least  as  well 
qualified  judges  as  any  in  the  Commonwealth,  and  why  the  counties  of  Ohio,  and 
Brooke,  and  other  coimties  in  the  State  cannot  do  the  same  r  The  onlv  relevant  rea- 

67 


530 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


sons  which  I  have  as  yet  heard  assigned,  why  the  Legislature  should  elect  the  Judges 
of  the  supreme  tribunals,  is,  because  the  people  do  not  always,  cannot  always,  know 
the  claims  of  the  aspirants  or  candidates.  If  this  be  good  logic  or  good  sense,  it  will 
prove  that  the  counties  ought  to  elect  their  own  magistrates,  because  they  can  know 
them  better  than  any  persons  living  out  of  the  counties ;  and  the  recommendation  O'f 
a  whole  ward  of  qualified  voters,  is  better  evidence  to  the  chief  Executive  of  their 
competency,  than  is  the  recommendation  of  a  few,  perhaps  interested  magistrates.  I 
am  for  reposing  the  greatest  confidence  in  the  people.  The  pov^^er  is  safely  lodged  in 
their  hands  ;  more  safely,  I  am  sure,  than  in  a  few  privileged  ones,  whom  tliey  never 
appointed  their  trustees. 

The  virtue  of  the  people,  and  not  the  goodness  of  the  system,  has  hitherto  pre- 
vented that  corruption  to  which  many  of  our  institutions  tend.  But,  if  that  deteriora- 
tion of  the  public  morals  which  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  has  assured  us  is 
advancing  v/ith  such  appalling  rapidity,  in  a  few  years  the  County  Court  system  will 
become  an  intolerable  grievance. 

I  am  not  an  enemy  to  County  Courts,  but  I  Vvnsh  to  leave  them  in  the  power,  and 
subject  to  tiie  wisdom  of  legislation.  I  do  not  wish  to  bind  them  irrevocably  and  un- 
alterably upon  posterity  by  Constitutional  provision.  If  they  are  so  wise  and  so  use- 
ful, as  gentlemen  suppose,  they  need  not  fear  the  Legislative  power. 

Bat,  why  we  should  only  establish  the  prmciple  of  a  Court  of  Appeals  and  of  such 
other  Inferior  Courts  as  the  Legislature  may  ordain  and  establish,  and  bind  by  the  de- 
finite article  the,  the  present  County  Courts  upon  the  people,  is  to  me  unaccountable, 
except  upon  one  principle,  and  that  is  because  so  many  complaints  have  been  made 
against  them.  V/hy  should  the  article  the  precede  County  Courts,  and  the  others  be 
spoken  of  indefinitely  ?  Thus  the  Legislature  is  debarred  from  touching  them !  For,  if 
such  an  attempt  should  be  made,  some  ten  or  twenty  years  hence,  would  it  not  be 
argued  that  the  phrase  "  the  Coiinty  Courts,''  just  imported  such  County  Courts  so  or- 
ganized and  so  constituted  as  those  existing  at  this  day.  A  Court  of  Appeals  will  ad- 
mit of  Legislative  provision,  but  tlie  County  Courts  will  not.  I  hope  gentlemen  will 
perceive  the  impropriety  of  this  phraseology,  and  correct  it,  if  they  wisii  the  Legisla- 
ture ever  to  take  these  courts  into  examination. 

I  could  produce  many  testimonies  against  them,  were  I  to  follow  the  example  of 
gentlemen  who  defend  them;  but  I  prefer  examining  their  merits  or  demerits  upon 
principle;  and,  I  doubt  not,  if  we  were  fully  acquainted  with  the  whole  history  of 
them,  they  will  be  found  no  better  in  practice  than  in  principle.  From  the  informa- 
tion I  have  received,  I  can  hazard  nothing  in  saying  that  I  am  of  opinion  that  at  least 
four-fifths  of  the  magistrates  in  'Western  Virginia,  would  wish  to  see  the  present  sys- 
tem subjected  to  Legislative  jurisdiction.  I  do  therefore  hope,  that  we  will  commit 
them  wholly  to  Legislative  controul  and  management,  which  can  best  adapt  them  to 
the  ever-changing  exigencies  of  society. 

The  question  was  now  taken  on  striking  out  the  clause,  and  decided  in  the  nega- 
tive—Ayes 22. 

So  the  Committee  refused  to  strike  out  the  words  "  and  in  the  County  Courts," 
from  the  resolution  declaring  in  what  courts  the  Judicial  power  of  Virginia  shall  reside. 

Mr.  Campbell  now  moved  (in  consequence  of  an  alleged  suggestion  of  the  venera- 
ble gentleman  from  Richmond,  Mr.  Marshall,)  to  strike  out  the  word  the"  before 
"  County  Courts,"  so  as  to  let  the  clause  read  "  and  in  County  Courts."  _ 

Mr.  Marshall  thought  this  could  do  no  harm,  and  if  it  tended  to  reconcile  any  gen- 
tleman to  the  resolution,  it  had  better  be  adopted. 

Mr.  Randolph  wished  to  hear  what  good  it  would  do. 

Mr.  Henderson  rephed,  that  if  the  word  should  be  retained,  the  Legislature  might 
consider  themselves  as  withheld  from  any  alteration  in  the  organization  of  these  courts ; 
if  it  was  removed,  that  doubt  would  be  removed. 

Mr.  Coalter  said,  if  the  amendment  was  to  have  no  efltect,  he  did  not  object  to  it ; 
but  if  it  was  to  give  the  Legislature  power  to  organize  the  County  Courts,  so  as  to  as- 
sign them  pay  and  put  them  on  the  civil  list,  he' should  be  against  it. 

Mr.  Mercer  was  astonished  to  hear  a  doubt  on  that  subject :  the  Legislature  had  at 
present  power  to  assign  pay  to  the  magistrates,  if  they  pleased. 

Mr.  Coalter  said,  the  Constitution  contained  no  power  to  that  effect. 

Mr.  Morgan,  in  reply  to  Judge  Coalter,  said  he  had  always  understood,  that  by  a 
true  construction  of  the  Constitution,  the  Legislature  has  full  authority  to  allow  jus- 
tices of  the  peace  any  compensation  whatever.  There  can  be  no  doubt,  as  no  part  of 
the  Constitution  prohibits  it.  By  one  clause,  justices  are  authorised  to  sit  in  either 
House  of  Assembly ;  but  by  another,  the  disqualifying  clause,  every  person  holding 
any  lucrative  office  is  disqualified  from  sitting  in  the  Legislature.  Thus,  if  they  be  al- 
lowed either  fees,  or  a  salary  for  their  services,  they  cannot  sit  in  either  House  under 
this  last  clause  ;  the  fees  or  salary,  making  the  office  a  lucrative  one.  They  have  the 
whole  subject  of  compensation  under  their  own  controul,  and  in  their  own  hands. 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


531 


But  they  prefer  sitting  in  the  Assembly,  and  \vieldino;  their  counties  at  home,  as  has 
well  been  said  by  others,  to  any  fees  or  salary  whatever. 

The  question  was  now  taken  on  Mr.  Campbell's  motion,  and  carried — Ayes  48, 
Noes  4.2. 

(Messrs.  Madison,  Monroe  and  Marshall,  voting  in  tlie  affirmative.) 
So  the  Committee  resolved  that  the  clause  shall  read  : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Judicial  power  shall  be  vested  in  a  Court  of  Appeals,  in  such 
Inferior  Courts  as  the  Legislature  shall  from  time  to  time  ordain  and  establish,  and  in 
County  Courts." 

The  Committee  then  rose,  and  the  House  adjourned. 


WEDNESDAY,  December  2, 1S29, 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  w^ith  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Sj'kes  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

The  House  then  went  into  Com-mittee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  Stanard  in  the  Chair, 
and  the  question  being  on  the  first  resolution  in  the  report  of  the  Judiciary  Com- 
mittee : 

Mr.  Marshall  said,  there  were  some  additional  provisions  he  wished  to  have  intro- 
duced into  the  resolution,  and  which  he  had  not  yet  suggested.  The  resolution  pro- 
fesses to  enumerate  all  the  depositories  of  the  Judicial  power  of  the  Commonwealth ; 
and,  therefore,  all  intended  to  be  included  must  be  enumerated.  Justices  of  the 
peace  when  not  upon  the  bench,  but  acting  singly,  exercise  an  important  portion  of 
the  Judicial  power.  The  trial  of  warrants  was  a  considerable  part  of  the  Judicial 
power  of  the  Commonwealth.  He,  therefore,  moved  to  amend  the  resolution  by 
adding  the  following  clause  after  the  words  "  County  Courts 

In  the  third  line  of  the  first  resolution  of  the  Judicial  Committee,  strike  out  the 
word  and" — and  secondly,  at  the  end  of  the  .same  line  insert  •'■  and  in  the  justices 
of  the  peace  who  shall  compose  the  said  courts." 

The  amendment  was  agreed  to. 

Mr.  JMarshall  then  proposed  to  add  still  farther  to  the  enumeration.  Corporation 
Courts  constituted  a  necessary  part  of  the  Judicial  system,  and  should  not  be  omitted. 
He  at  first  proposed  to  insert  the  amendment  after  the  words  County  Courts,"  but 
some  gentlemen  whom  he  had  consulted,  felt  apprehensive  that  such  a  location  might 
render  these  Corporation  Courts,  Constitutional  tribunals;  and  though  he  had  no  such 
apprehension  himself,  for  caution  sake,  he  would  not  propose  to  insert  them  there, 
but  so  introduce  the  am.endment,  that  it  should  be  impossible  to  consider  them  as 
courts  Constitutionally  established.    He  then  moved  the  following  : 

"  The  Legislature  may  also  vest  such  jurisdiction  as  shall  be  deemed  necessary  in 
Corporation  Courts,  and  in  the  magistrates  who  may  belong  to  the  Corporate  body." 

This  amendment  was  also  agreed  to. 

Mr.  Mercer  having  moved  fhat  the  report  of  the  Judiciary  Committee,  wliich  had 
now  been  gone  through,  be  laid  aside,  and  that  the  Committee  proceed  to  consider 
the  report  of  the  Legislative  Committee. 

Mr.  Powell  said,  that  it  would  be  recollected  by  a  vote  taken  yesterday,  the  Com- 
mittee had  agreed  to  strike  out  the  word  the''  before  the  words  Comity  Courts,''  in 
the  first  resolution  of  the  Judiciary  Committee.  Mr.  P.  said,  that  he  had  been  one  of 
those  who  voted  in  the  affirmative  on  that  question,  but  he  was  now  free  to  confess, 
that  he  had  given  that  vote  under  a  total  mistake,  as  to  what  would  be  the  effect  of 
striking  out  the  word,  and  his  object  in  rising  at  this  time  was  to  move  a  re-considera- 
tion. He  had  been  confirmed  in  his  opinion,  b}'  the  view  which  had  been  taken  by 
the  gentleman  from  Richmond,  (Mr.  Marshall.)  that  the  effect  would  be  to  abrogate 
the  provision  in  the  existing  Constitution ;  and  if  the  present  resolution  should  be 
adopted,  and  the  word  "  the"  be  stricken  therefrom,  what  would  be  the  necessary  ef- 
fect ?  The  effect  must  be,  that  the  Legislature  would  be  required  forthwith  to  build 
up  anew  the  County  Court  system,  with  whatever  power  or  jurisdiction  attached  to 
it,  that  body  might  deem  it  proper  to  confer.  Now,  he  was  well  satisfied,  that  this 
had  not  been  the  object  desired  by  most  of  those  who  had  voted  in  favour  of  striking 
out  the  word  ^-  tlie.''  Mr.  P.  said,  that  while  he  was  desii-ous  to  preserve  the  system 
of  the  County  Courts,  and  to  vest  in  the  Legislature,  a  power  to  correct  the  existing 
evils  of  that  system,  it  was  by  no  means  his  wish  to  impose  upon  the  Legislature,  the 
duty  of  building  up  an  entire  system  from  the  foundation.  If  the  word  "  the"  should 
be  retained,  then  the  County  Courts  would  be  retained  in  their  present  organization, 
the  Legislature  having  power  to  alter  and  regulate  the  jurisdiction  of  those  courts  as 
they  might  see  proper.    It  was  true,  that  that  body  might  choose  to  retain  the  system. 


532 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


as  it  now  existed,  with  its  present  jurisdiction  unaltered;  but  it  was  also  true  that 
they  might  do  otherwise.    He  hoped  tlie  motion  would  be  re-considered. 

Mr.  Randolph  said,  that  he  hoped  and  trusted  that  the  Committee  would  re-consider. 
He  had  never  been  more  surprised  in  his  life  than  on  yesterday,  when  after  the  very 
slender  vote  their  exertions  had  enabled  them  to  obtain,  he  found  instantcr,  a  sudden 
change  produced  by  the  adoption  of  an  amendment,  which,  to  put  the  most  fair  con- 
struction upon  it,  was  equivalent  to  striking  out  the  whole  of  that,  which  the  Com- 
mittee had  determined  to  retain,  and  which  was  susceptible  of  a  construction  still 
more  hostile  to  the  existing  system.  Mr.  R.  said,  that  he  did  not  know  any  other 
thing  which  could  have  induced  him,  in  the  present  pitiable  condition  of  his  frame, 
to  throw  himself  upon  the  attention  of  the  Committee.  He  had  long  considered  the 
County  Court  system,  and  the  freehold  Suffrage,  as  the  two  main  pillars  in  the  an- 
cient edifice  of  our  State  Constitution.  In  the  course  of  my  life  I  have  repeatedly 
been  called  upon  by  various  eminent  men,  to  explain  to  them  the  system  of  Govern- 
ment in  this  Commonwealth;  and  I  never  knew  a  single  individual  of  the  number, 
who  was  not  struck  with  admiration  at  the  structure  of  our  County  Court  system. 
I  have  been  asked,  whether  it  was  the  effect  of  design,  or  of  one  of  those  fortunate 
combinations  of  circumstances,  which  enabled  its  framers  to  "  snatch  a  grace  beyond 
the  reach  of  art."  Whether  it  was  design  or  chance,  one  thing  is  certain,  that  the 
plan  has  proved  in  practice,  to  be  one  of  the  very  best  which  the  wit  of  man  could 
have  devised  for  this  Commonwealth  ;  preserving  in  the  happiest  manner,  a  just  ad- 
ministration of  our  affairs,  between  the  instability  attendant  upon  popular  elections, 
and  the  corruption  or  oppression  of  Executive  patronage.  It  insures  to  us,  that  the 
power  of  the  Commonwealth  will  always  be  in  the  hands  of  good  and  lawful  men. 
I  never  met  an  individual  who  cursed  the  appointment  of  Jackson,  or  a  Federalist, 
when  Federalism  was  uppermost,  or  a  Republican,  when  it  was  downmost,  who  did 
not  express  envy  at  this  feature  of  our  polity.  Virginia  stands  between  Scylla  and 
Charybdis.  We  must  have  magistrates  appointed  by  the  people  or  by  the  Execu- 
tive, (unless  the  present  mode  be  continued.)  Suppose  by  the  people.  Then,  in  a 
cause  between  a  man  of  great  influence,  popularity,  and  power — and  a  poor  man, — 
he  that  is  poor  will  have  no  chance  of  justice.  If  they  are  appointed  by  the  Execu- 
tive, it  must  be  by  recommendation  : — but  of  what  sort.''  Such  as  prevails  at  Wash- 
ington? (thank  God  no  man  ever  dared  to  approach  me,  for  my  name  to  one  of  them,) 
recommendations  obtained  by  cabal  and  intrigue  ? — and  after  all — you  must  be  doomed 
to  instability — yes,  to  utter  instability.  At  present  the  Government  of  each  county, 
is  in,  hands  best  fitted  for  it.  The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  in  enumerating  so 
ably  and  clearly  the  Herculean  labours  of  their  office,  has  truly  said,  that  they  step 
in  between  the  accused  and  the  Commonwealth  in  all  cases,  where  the  crime  is  not 
so  great  as  to  be  sent  on  to  the  higher  courts.  Their  mode  of  appointment  may  be 
an  anomaly — but  I  consider  it  the  most  valuable  feature  of  the  system. 

If  we  abandon  this,  we  must  resort  to  infamous  jobbers  and  trading  justices  ;  who 
will  foment  instead  of  allaying  village  quarrels.  If  you  will  strike  the  pettifogger 
out  of  existence,  you  shall  have  my  vote  most  heartily.  It  can  be  done  thus  alone. 
But  there  are  some  (I  speak,  of  course,  of  those  02it  of  this  House.)  who  delight  to 
excite  clamour — who  long  to  suck  blood — and  raise  popular  commotion ; — who  want 
to  be  Judges  and  justices,  because  the  people  refuse  them  a  livelihood  as  lawyers.  I 
was  pained  and  surprised  at  the  description  given,  by  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun, 
of  drunken  justices.  1  had  thought  there  were  none  of  such  a  description  ;  but  the 
testimony  is  given  by  a  respectable  gentleman — and  in  his  count}^,  the  fact  must  be 
so.  I  bless  God  it  is  so  no  where  else.  Our  justices  are  not  so  ignorant  as  he 
imagines — my  confidence  is  infinitely  g-reater  in  County  Courts  than  in  the  Superior 
Courts.  The  bench  of  the  latter  is  filled  too  often  by  lawyers — who  can't  get  a  live- 
lihood at  the  bar.  I  speak  not  of  Judges  in  general.  But  the  gentleman  says,  that 
when  he  wants  a  pair  of  boots,  he  goes  to  a  skilful  boot-maker :  but,  Sir,  when  I 
want  either  boots  or  a  Constitution,  I  will  go  to  capable  workmen,  and  not  to  cobblers. 

Great  stress  has  been  laid  on  the  opinion  of  Mr.  Jefferson,  by  a  gentleman  not  now 
in  his  place.  Sir,  the  opinion  of  Mr.  Jefferson  comes  strangely  from  him.  He  has 
gone  beyond  the  Ganges  into  the  uttermost  East.  But  I  have  no  hesitation  to  say, 
that  on  a  subject  like  this,  I  have  not  much  deference  for  the  opinion  of  Mr.  Jeffer- 
son. We  all  know  he  v/as  very  confident  in  his  theories — but  1  am  a  practical  man 
and  have  no  confidence  a  priori  in  the  theories  of  Mr.  Jefferson,  or  of  any  other  man 
under  the  sun. 

Not  an  argument  has  been  advanced  against  County  Courts,  but  would  be  equally 
good  a  ■priori  against  jury-trial.  What  could  have  taught  us  its  value,  but  expe- 
rience A  2)riori,  it  seems  absurd  to  trust  a  dozen  ploughmen — good  and  lawful  of 
the  vicinage  I  grant,  but  still  ploughmen — with  a  point  of  law  in  criminal  cases, 
without  appeal — and  in  civil  cases  under  circumstances  almost  equivalent.  We  can 
hardly  conceive  any  thing  more  ridiculous  in  theory — yet  we  find  none  half  so  valua- 
ble in  practice  : — So  vain  is  it  to  argue  against  fact.    I  once  witnessed  a  contest  of 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


53S 


argument  against  fact;  and  if  it  will  relieve  the  oppression  and  ennui  of  this  debate,  I 
will  relate  it:  1  saw  one  of  the  best  and  worthiest  men  on  a  visit  at  some  distance  from 
home,  urging  his  lady  to  make  preparation  to  ride,  for  "the  Sun  was  down" — His 
lady  said,  Uie  Sun  was  not  down."  Her  lord  gravely  replied,  "  the  Sun  sets  at  half 
past  SIX  :  it  is  now  past  that  time."  (Every  man's  watch  is  right  and  his  was  in  his 
hand.)  The  company  looked  out  of  the  window  and  saw  the  Sun  in  all  his  blaze  of 
glory — but  the  Sun  ought  to  have  been  down,  as  fleas  ought  to  have  been  lobsters. 
The  Sun,  however,  was  not  down,  and  fleas  are  not  lobsters:  whether  it  be  because 
they  have  not  souls,  I  leave  to  St.  Jerome  and  the  Bishops  to  settle. 

W e  are  not  to  be  struck  dowm  by  the  authority  of  iNIr.  Jefl:erson.  Sir,  if  there  be  any 
point  in  which  the  authority  of  Mr.  Jefferson  might  be  considered  as  valid,  it  is  in  the 
mechanism  of  a  plough.  He  once  mathematically  and  geometrically  demonstrated 
the  form  of  a  mould-board  which  should  present  the  least  resistance :  his  mould-board 
was  sent  to  Paris,  to  tlie  Savants — it  was  exhibited  to  all  the  visitors  at  the  Garden  of 
Plants.  The  Sacants  all  declared  una  voce  that  this  was  the  best  mould-board  that  had 
ever  been  devised.  They  did  not  decree  to  INIr.  Jefterson  the  honors  of  Hermes  Tris- 
megistus,  but  they  cast  his  mould-board  in  plaister ;  and  there  it  remains  an  eternal 
proof,  that  this  form  of  mould-board  presents  less  resistance  than  any  other  on  the  face 
of  the  earth.  Some  time  after,  an  adversary  brought  into  Virginia  the  Carey  plough; 
but  it  was  such  an  awkward  ill-looking  thing,  that  it  would  not  sell :  at  length  some 
one  tried  it,  and  though  its  mould-board  was  not  that  of  least  resistance,  it  beat  Mr. 
Jelferson's  plough  as  much  as  common  sense  will  always  beat  theory  and  reveries. 
Now  there  is  not  in  Virginia,  I  believe,  one  plough  with  the  mould-hoard  of  least  resis- 
tance. I  have  had  some  experience  in  its  use,  and  find  it  the  handsomest  plough  to 
draw  I  ever  saw.    So  much  lor  authority ! 

Sir,  when  we  shall  have  given  up  County  Courts,  and  jury-trial,  and  Freehold  Suf- 
frage, there  will  be  nothing  in  the  Commonwealth  worth  attention  to  any  one  of  prac- 
tical sense.  The  County  Courts  hold  the  just  balance  between  popular  mutability, 
(the  opprobrium  and  danger  of  all  popular  systems)  on  the  one  hand,  and  Executiva 
patronage,  on  the  other.  1  said  before  that  there  must  be  recommendation  of  some 
sort.  C^uaere  then,  which  is  better  ?  that  it  shall  be  made  openly  by  the  justices  when 
assembled,  on  notice,  or  by  a  private  letter.'*  Sir,  I  am  for  a  strict  adherence  to  the 
anchorage  ground  of  the  Constitution :  it  has  hitherto  kept  the  Commonwealth  from 
swinging  from  its  moorings  :  when  it  shall  drag  its  anchors,  or  slip  its  cable,  God  knows 
what  will  become  of  the  vessel  of  State.  But  my  hand  may  not  be  wanting  at  the 
plough.  If  gentlemen  succeed  in  introducing  the  newest,  theoretical,  pure,  defeca- 
ted Jacobinism  into  this  Commonwealth,  I  do  upon  my  soul  believe,  they  will  have 
inflicted  a  deeper  wound  on  Republican  Government,  than  it  ever  experienced 
before. 

I  wish  I  could  have  presented  my  thoughts  in  a  manner  more  Avorthy  of  the  subject 
and  the  occasion.  The  gentleman  who  has  aspired  to  out-act  Ctesar  in  the  Capitol, 
folds  himself  in  his  robe,  and  exclaims  et  tu  Brute! 

Mr.  Marshall  said,  he  could  assure  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte,  that  that  gentle- 
man was  not  a  greater  friend  to  the  County  Courts  than  he  was,  nor  was  he  a  greater 
friend  to  the  mode  in  which  the  justices  are  now  appointed  than  lie;  and  whenever 
the  Committee  should  reach  that  part  of  the  report  which  applied  to  this  particular 
question,  the  gentleman  would  find  him  following  in  his  track,  not  closely  perhaps, 
but  at  some  distance,  yet  certainly  following.  He  was  disposed  to  make  a  great  sa- 
crifice to  secure  that  object. 

He  would  now  call  the  attention  of  the  Committee  to  the  fifth  resolution  of  the  re- 
port, and  which  he  trusted  would  be  suffered  to  remain  in  it.  It  disposed  of  the  subject 
the  gentleman  from  Charlotte  appeared  to  be  so  much  concerned  about.  [Here  Mr. 
M.  read  the  fifth  resolution  in  the  following  words:  "  Resolved,  That  on  the  creation 
of  any  new  county,  justices  of  the  peace  shall  be  appointed  in  the  first  instance  as 
may  be  prescribed  by  law.  When  vacancies  shall  occur  in  any  county,  or  it  shall, 
for  any  cause,  be  deemed  necessary  to  increase  their  number,  appointments  shall  be 
made  by  the  Governor,  by  and  with  the  advice  and  consent  of  the  Senate,  on  the  re- 
commendation of  their  respective  County  Courts."] 

If  the  Convention  should  leave  to  the  Governor  an  Executive  Council,  then  he  was 
ready  to  say,  let  the  appointment  of  justices  be  made  by  the  Governor,  by  and  wdth  the 
advice  of  the  Council,  as  is  now  provided  by  the  Constitution.  But,  if  it  should  be 
contrary  to  the  will  of  the  Convention  that  a  Council  be  retained,  then  let  the  ap- 
pointment be  made  with  the  advice  of  the  Senate,  on  the  recommendation  of  the 
County  Court.  It  was  his  purpose  to  offer  an  amendment,  which  would  give 
still  more  importance  to  the  recommendation  of  the  County  Court.  He  would  not 
suggest  it  at  present,  but  he  should  most  certainly  so  endeavor.  He  did  not  differ 
from  the  gentleman  in  his  views  of  the  County  Courts.  He  did  not,  however,  sup- 
pose it  to  be  necessary  to  re-instate  the  article  "  the''  in  order  to  effect  all  that  gentle- 
man wished,  and  which  he  wished  as  strongly  as  the  gentleman.    When  tlie  word 


534 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


was  stricken  out,  it  was  apprehended  that  the  effect  might  be  to  have  some  new  court 
constituted  and  called  "  a  County  Court,"  and  which  might  displace  the  County  Courts 
as  at  present  established.  Mr.  M.  said,  he  should  be  dissatisfied  with  such  a  change  ; 
but  he  did  not  apprehend  it  could  result  from  omitting  the  article.  The  amendinent 
which  had  been  adopted  rendered  such  a  thing  impossible.  It  directed  that  the  jus- 
tices of  the  peace  should  constitute  the  County  Courts;  and  if  so,  what  was  there  to 
fear  He  perceived  nothing.  But  with  respect  to  the  County  Courts  as  now  estab- 
lished, and  the  mode  of  their  appointment,  there  was  not  a  member  of  the  Convention 
more  strongly  disposed  to  retain  them  than  he. 

Mr.  Randolph  rose  to  supply  the  omission  of  a  fact  which  he  had  intended  to  state 
when  last  up,  which  was,  that  he  never  had  been,  was  not  then,  and  never  should  be, 
a  magistrate ;  nor  was  there  a  magistrate  connected  with  him  by  blood  or  marriage, 
within  his  own  county,  or  as  far  as  he  knew,  any  where  else. 

Mr.  Marshall  said,  that  he  hoped  he  had  not  been  considered  as  insinuating  any 
such  motive  as  having  actuated  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte.  It  would  really  give 
him  more  pain  than  he  could  express.  No  person  could  be  more  fully  satisfied  that 
that  gentleman  uttered  his  own  opinions,  and  that  what  he  said  flowed  from  him  in 
a  manner  the  most  spontaneous  and  impartial. 

Mr.  Randolph  replied,  that  it  was  impossible  that  what  he  had  now  stated  could  have 
had  the  remotest  connexion  with  the  remarks  of  the  distinguished  gentleman  from  Rich- 
mond, because  he  had  intended  to  have  said  it  when  up  before,  and  had  omitted  to  do 
so  only  tiirough  inadvertence  :  that  gentleman  was  the  last  man  in  the  world  that  he 
could  suspect  of  intending  to  make  any  injurious  insinuations  whatever.  He  knew 
that  like  my  uncle  Toby    he  would  not  hurt  a  fly." 

Mr.  Powell  said,  that  he  should  not  attempt,  because  he  felt  himself  to  be  unquali- 
fied, to  oppose  the  interpretation  which  had  been  put  upon  the  amendinent  by  the 
venerable  gentleman  from  Richmond;  and  if  he  could  have  satisfied  his  mind,  that  it 
would  have  the  effect  that  gentleman  supposed,  he  should  cheerfully  have  withdrawn 
his  motion  for  a  re-consideration.  He  attributed  it  to  the  obtuseness  of  his  own  intel- 
lect, that  he  was  unable  to  subscribe  to  the  opinion  which  the  gentleman  had  ex- 
pressed; but  he  could  not  still  help  believing,  that  if  the  efiect  of  the  present  resolution 
would  be,  to  abrogate  so  much  of  the  existing  Constitution  as  applied  to  this  subject, 
so  that  the  Constitution  would  stand  as  if  it  contained  no  such  clause  at  all,  and  in 
place  of  it  the  naked  resolution  of  the  Committee  was  to  be  substituted,  the  effect 
would  be  to  vest  a  portion  of  the  Judicial  power  in  a  County  Court;  of  course,  all  the 
laws  resting  on  the  present  clause  in  the  Constitution,  must  fall  with  it.  They  could 
not  operate  with  respect  to  a  principle,  now  first  proposed.  This  resolution,  then, 
was  to  be  a  substitute  for,  and  an  abrogation  of,  the  existing  provision  in  the  Constitu- 
tion. The  Legislature  would  consequently  have  to  create  the  duties  and  to  define  the 
jurisdiction  of  the  County  Courts.  If  his  view  was  correct,  the  result  would  be,  to 
impose  that  duty  upon  the  Legislature.  They  must  define  by  law,  ail  the  powers  and 
all  the  duties  of  the  new  County  Courts.  He  had  before  admitted,  that  it  was  possi- 
ble that  they  might  re-enact  the  present  system  just  as  it  stood,  but  they  might  also 
determine  otherwise,  and  he  for  one,  did  not  choose  to  entrust  them  with  that  power. 
He  had  fears,  that  the  Legislature  might  go  beyond  a  mere  pruning  away  of  the  ex- 
crescences of  the  present  County  Court  system.  He  wished  to  give  them  power  to 
do  no  more  than  to  correct  the  abuses  of  that  system — would  the  amendment  of  the 
gentleman  from  Richmond  have  that  effect?  The  amendment  only  said,  that  the 
magistrates  of  which  it  spoke  should  constitute  the  County  Court.  But  what  County 
Court.?  It  did  not  say  what  sort  of  a  County  Court  it  should  be.  Now,  he  thought 
that  the  Legislature  would  be  bound  to  supply  this  omission  by  regulating  the  whole 
subject.  Mr.  P.  however,  concluded  by  acknowledging  that  he  felt  inclined  to  dis- 
trust his  own  opinion,  because  he  found  that  it  differed  from  that  of  a  venerable  gen- 
tleman for  whose  personal  character,  as  well  as  exalted  station,  he  felt  the  highest  re- 
verence. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  that  if  his  good  and  great  friend  w^ould  give  him  his  attention  for 
a  moment,  he  thought  he  could  satisfy  him  of  the  importance  of  re-inserting  the 
word  "  the"  in  the  clause,  which  had  been  referred  to.  As  the  proposition  now  stood, 
since  that  word  had  been  stricken  out,  the  whole  amount  of  what  was  provided  was, 
that  the  Judicial  power  of  the  Commonwealth  should  be  vested  in  a  Court  of  Ap- 
peals, in  the  Inferior  Courts,  and  in  County  Courts  generally.  The  effect  would  have 
been,  that  the  Legislature  would  have  been  at  liberty  to  ordain  County  Courts,  held 
by  pettifoggers,  with  a  salary  of  $200;  with  an  enormous  expense  to  the  public,  and 
to  the  great  injury  of  tiie  suitors.  It  would  have  enabled  the  Legislature  to  have 
constituted  those  very  tribunals,  which  he  and  his  friend  held  m  the  most  abhorrence, 
but  which  some  other  gentlemen  seemed  so  earnestly  to  desire.  That  danger,  indeed, 
was  now  taken  away  in  some  measure  by  the  amendment,  which  had  been  adopted.  In 
that  respect,  the  existing  system  was  pursued,  but  it  was  pursued  only  in  that  parti- 
cular. What  had  been  the  object  of  the  Legislative  Committee It  certainly  had  been 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


535 


to  preserve  the  existing  system  of  our  County  Courts,  leaving  to  the  Legislature 
no  other  power  in  respect  to  them,  but  to  modify  their  jurisdiction.    But,  if  the 
word  •■  the"  should  not  be  inserted,  the  effect  would  be  precisely  that  which  had  been 
described  by  the  gentleman  from  Frederick.  (Mr.  Powell.)    It  secured  nothino-  more 
than  that  the  State  should  have  County  Courts  of  some  kind,  and  that  these°should 
consist  of  justices  of  the  peace.    But  still,  the  existing  Count}'-  Courts  would  not  be 
preserved  or  continued.    Not  only  would  the  County  Court  law  have  to  be  re-enacted 
but  there  was  hardly  a  statute  in  relation  to  the  Executive  authority  of  the  State,  and 
not  one  in  reference  to  its  police,  but  must  be  re-enacted  also:  and  every  man  must 
know,  that  to  re-build  the  entire  system,  would  be  an  immense  undertaking.  Whole 
bodies  of  law  must  be  subjected  to  alterations,  and  years  would  be  required  to  reinstate  - 
what  it  had  taken  two  hundred  years  to  perfect,  and  which  had  employed  the  wisdom  of 
their  ancestors  from  the  foundation  of  the  Colony  to  the  present  "time.    The  effect 
would  be,  not  to  preserve  the  Count}^  Courts  as  they  were,  but  to  obhge  the  Legis- 
lature to  re-enact  and  to  revise  every  statute  relating  to  them. 

But  should  this  not  be  the  effect,  and  his  apprehension  unfounded,  (for,  he  had  found 
that  the  high  degree  of  alarm  he  had  felt  and  expressed  on  this  subject,  appeared  to 
many  gentlemen  like  insanity.)  what  course  did  it  behove  the  wisdom  of  the  g-entle- 
man  from  Richmond  to  take  1  That  gentleman  had  told  the  Committee,  that  he  con- 
sidered it  as  of  no  importance  whether  the  word  the  was  there  or  not — that  it  did 
neither  good  nor  harm.  If  so,  he  asked  that  the  gentleman,  if  only  out  of  deference 
to  those  who  thought  the  word  of  importance,  would  consent  to  let  it  be  restored. 
If  he  thought  the  word  could  do  no  evil,  he  hoped  he  would  restore  it,  out  of  ren-ard 
to  their  real  and  sincere  apprehensions  of  the  effect  of  its  omission.  ~ 

Mr.  Henderson  in  reply  to  Mr.  E.andolph  said,  that  he  understood  that  gentleman 
to  have  accused  him  of  imputing  to  the  magistracy  of  his  own  countv  a  oreater  de- 
gree of  incompetency,  than  befonged  to  those  of  other  counties  simiiarFy  situated. 
He  disclaimed  any  such  intention,  and  thought  that  he  had  used  no  languao-e  which 
would  justify  it.  The  gentleman  from  Charlotte  had  charged  Iris  remarks\-itli  a  want 
of  decorum.  He  was  free  to  own  that  a  want  of  training,  as  well  as  of  other  qualifi- 
cations, which  were  requisite  to  sustain  his  character  inlhat  House,  subjected  him  to 
just  criticism.  But  he  did  not  owe  that  acknowledgment  to  the  o-entleman  from 
Charlotte — and  from  the  sample  which  the  House  had  witnessed  to-day,  he  should 
feel  inclined  to  take  some  other  model  for  miitation  when  he  wished  to  improve  his 
manners. 

Mr.  Johnson  said,  that  he  had  voted  to  strike  out  the  word  "  the"  before  "  County 
Courts."  He  had  done  so  from  deference  to  the  opinion  of  the  gentleman  from 
Richmond,  (Mr.  Marshall.)  and  from  a  persuasion  that  to  retain  it,  would  operate  in 
a  manner  that  might  trammel  the  Legislature,  (though  he  knew  that  no  such  inten- 
tion was  entertained  by  those  who  inserted  it.)  He  had  yielded  the  more  readily,  be- 
cause the  subject  had  been  gravely  considered  in  the  Judicial  Committee :  whereas 
he  had  not  himself  given  it  any  close  examination,  except  during  the  very  short  pe- 
riod in  which  it  had  been  discussed  in  Committee  of  the  Whole.  He  was'now  satis- 
fied that  he  had  done  wrong — and  that  in  voting  to  strike  out  the  word,  he  had  not 
done  that  which  was  required  from  him.  to  maintain  the  doctrines  he  had  alwavs  vin- 
dicated there  and  elsewhere.  It  had  not  been  to  a  County  Court  that  he  was  attached- 
for  a  court  organized  in  any  manner  and  called  a  County  Court  he  felt  no  particular 

reverence.    He  had  been  endeavouring  to  vindicate  the  County  Court  system  a 

system  long  k  nown  to  \  irgmians  by  its  Constitutionalty  and  its  practicabihtv.  It  was 
this  system  which  he  had  thought  so  beneficial.  It  was  that  County  Court,  which 
was  composed  of  justices  of  the  peace  with  power  to  recommend  their  successors 

and  which  participated  so  essentialh-  in  the  Executive  Department  of  Government  ■ 

it  was  that  identical  County  Court,  which  he  wished  to  see  recoo-nized  in  the  pro- 
posed Constitution.  Though  he  was  not  clear  that  striking  out  the  word  the  would 
hazard  this,  yet  restoring  it  would  clearly  declare  the  intention  of  this  body  in  that 
behalf.  The  County  Courts,  he  confessed,  were  his  favourites — and  he  did  not  think 
that  the  Legislative  discretion  could  be  restrained,  if  once  entrusted  with  the  subject 
because  that  discretion  would  follow  the  declaration  which  preceded,  viz:  that  the 
jurisdiction  of  all  the  courts  was  to  be  regulated  by  the  Legislature.  A  fair  construc- 
tion of  this  clause  would  not  restrain  tha^  body.  The  Legislature  mioht  sav  that  the 
Constitution  meant  the  courts  to  meet  racnthly.  or  once  in  two  months.  or"^in  three 
or  in  four  months :  that  it  meant  the  court  to  consist  of  but  three  or  four  members' 
&c.  All  was  completely  in  the  power  of  the  Legislature.  If  any  o-entleman  feared 
that  retaining  the  word  would  too  much  trammel  this  discretion,  fet  them  introduce  a 
guarded  article  to  prevent  it.  But  let  it  be  tlie  County  Courts  that  we  recognize. 
He  should  vote  in  favour  of  re-considering  the  decision  of  yesterdav  and  re-instatinff 
the  word. 

The  question  of  re-consideration  was  now  put,  and  decided  in  the  affirmative — 
Ayes  53,  Noes  41. 


536 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  Upshur  said,  he  would  trouble  the  Committee  with  but  a  few  remarks.  He 
had  voted  for  a  re-consideration,  and  it  was  due  to  himself  that  he  should  make  liis 
course  in  this  matter  understood.  He  should  vote  against  re-instating  the  word  "  the" 
for  reasons  which  he  would  now  briefly  state.  It  had  been  said  that  the  Convention 
by  retaining  that  word,  would  shew  its  determination  to  retain  the  County  Courts  as 
now  organized  in  every  respect :  not  only  to  preserve  some  of  the  forms  of  the  pre- 
sent system,  but  the  County  Courts,  with  all  and  every  incident  pertaining  to  them ; 
and  the  objection  to  this  was,  that  the  vote  would  bind  tlie  Convention  to  take  those 
courts,  not  only  with  all  their  present  jurisdiction,  but  also  with  the  present  mode  of 
appointing  the  justices  who  were  to  compose  them  ;  what  course  he  might  take,  was 
questionable.  He  had  listened  with  attention  to  the  observaiions  on  both  sides,  but 
he  could  not  fully  agree  with  either.  He  thought  in  the  main,  that  these  courts  were 
the  most  useful  of  all  the  branches  of  the  Judiciary  system,  but  he  was  willing  that 
all  modes  of  appointing  justices  should  be  proposed.  If  any  one  of  them  was  better 
than  that  now  in  use,  Mr.  U.  was  ready  to  vote  for  it;  but,  unless  it  were  better,  he 
should  of  course  prefer  to  retain  t)ie  present  mode.  He  should  now  vote  with  a  view 
to  leave  that  point  open.  Gentlemen  seemed  to  imagine,  that  if  they  did  not  adopt 
the  whole  system,  they  would  leave  it  in  the  power  of  the  Legislature,  to  organize 
under  the  name  of  a  County  Court  any  sort  of  tribunal  they  pleased.  This  might 
be  true,  if  the  vote  now  given  were  final ;  but  they  were  now  sitting,  not  in  Conven- 
tion, but  in  Committee  of  the  Whole,  and  deliberating  on  the  proper  shape  to  be  given 
to  the  several  Judicial  tribunals  of  the  Commonwealth.  The  vote  now  to  be  taken 
would  not  deprive  them  of  the  power  of  hereafter  adopting  either  the  present  mode 
of  appointing  justices,  or  some  other  instead  of  it,  as  the  Convention  might  prefer. 
The  subject  would  still  be  left  open  ;  they  would  not  be  concluded  by  their  present 
act.  If  they  voted  against  re-instating  the  word  now,  the  resolution  without  it  v/ould 
only  form  a  part  of  that  Constitution,  on  each  article  of  which  they  would  hereafter 
have  to  pass.  They  would  only  have  determined  that  a  part  of  the  Judicial  power  of 
the  State  should  be  vested  in  County  Courts,  and  in  justices  of  the  peace.  Who 
were  these  to  be  ?  Persons  appointed  under  the  Constitution  which  they  should  erect. 
And  how  appointed  As  that  Constitution  might  direct.  They  could  provide  that  the 
justices  should  be  appointed  in  one  mode,  or  in  another  mode.  Would  they  be  at  all 
precluded  from  devising  some  other  scheme  ?  Not  at  all.  This  view  of  the  matter 
was  with  him  conclusive.  He  was  for  letting  gentlemen  have  an  opportunity  of  sub- 
mitting their  various  schemes  for  some  better  mode.  If  after  these  had  been  con- 
sidered, the  present  plan  should  at  last  be  found  preferable  to  all  others,  they  could  at 
the  latest  hour  go  back  and  adopt  it. 

But  what  would  be  the  consequence  of  the  opposite  vote  ?  The  entire  system  must 
be  retained  precisely  in  its  present  form.  If  the  whole  must  not  be  retained,  then 
his  argument  was  good  for  nothing;  but,  if  it  must,  they  were  now  making  a  final 
determination,  and  though  a  thousand  schemes,  hov^^ever  judicious,  should  be  proposed, 
with  a  view  to  check  and  controul  abuses  now  complained  of,  the  Convention  would 
be  precluded  from  considering  any  one  of  them. 

The  difficulty  suggested  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  did  not  weigh  much 
with  him;  there  would  be  no  necessity  for  re-enacting  all  those  laws  of  which  he 
spoke.  Let  the  justices  of  the  peace  be  appointed  under  the  same  title,  and  the 
County  Courts  be  established  under  the  same  designation  as  at  present.  The  one 
would  then  take  the  place  of  the  other,  and  the  laws  wouJd  apply  to  them  just  as 
they  did  at  present;  or  if  this  were  doulDtful,  what  could  be  easier  than  to  cause  them 
to  do  so  by  a  provision  of  the  Constitution  ?  He  saw  no  difficulty  in  the  case.  The 
vote  had  been  given  on  the  idea  (he  would  not  say  entertained  by  himself.)  that  re- 
taining the  word  "  the"  precluded  them  from  amending  the  mode  of  appointing  jus- 
tices. If  it  did  not,  the}^  were  still  left  free.  Why  adhere  to  this  precise  phraseology, 
while  it  did  produce  the  most  serious  doubt?  There  were  many  members  who  would 
vote  to  strike  out  the  system  altogether,  rather  than  allow  magistrates  to  be  appointed 
as  they  now  are.  Mr.  U.  said,  he  was  not  one  of  these,  but  he  had  an  anxious  desire 
to  give  gentlemen  an  opportunity  of  submitting  their  plans.  For  himself,  he  believed 
that  nine  out  of  ten  would  find  the  present  plan  best.  He  confessed  that  he  was  un- 
able to  see  a  better.  He  felt  but  little  respect  for  theories,  and  had  little  doubt  that 
the  existing  system  would  be  retained.  But  why  preclude  members  from  offering 
their  schemes.^  He  did  not  wish  to  shut  the  door  upon  enquiry.  Should  any  plan  be 
offered,  the  theory  of  which  he  might  approve,  and  which  he  believed  would  not 
prove  injurious  in  practice,  he  should  be  disposed  to  go  with  it.  But  if  retaining  the 
word  "  the"  would  leave  open  the  question  as  to  the  appointment  of  justices,  he 
should  not  care  a  farthing  which  way  the  vote  went. 

The  Chair  here  observed,  that  the  consideration  of  the  fifth  resolution  would  open 
that  point. 

Mr.  Upshur  said,  he  had  so  understood  it.  What,  then,  could  be  the  use  of  re- 
taining the  word  "  the  ?" 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


537 


Mr.  Johnson  said,  he  would  shew  the  gentleman  what  was  the  use  of  retaining. 
Re-instating  the  word  would  not  preclude  any  subsequent  amendments.  If  the  Com- 
mittee chose  to  say,  that  justices  of  the  peace  should  be  appointed  at  the  will  of  the 
Governor,  or  should  be  elected  by  wards,  or  should  be  appointed  on  the  recommen- 
dation of  the  County  Courts,  by  and  with  the  consent  of  the  Senate,  it  was  surely 
competent  to  them  to  do  so.  But,  he  was  for  re-instating  the  word  "  the,''  because  the 
striking  of  it  out  went  to  destroy  the  indication  they  had  given  as  to  the  tribunal 
they  intended  to  erect.  When  the  Constitution  said,  iAe  County  Courts  5  to  what 
could  it  be  supposed  to  refer  ?  To  the  County  Courts  of  Kentucky  ?  To  the  County 
Courts  of  Maryland?  Or,  must  it  not  refer  to  the  County  Courts  of  Virginia,  as 
known  to  them  at  the  time  the  Constitution  was  adopted  ?  He  understood  the  Com- 
mittee as  having  said,  that  in  these,  a  part  of  the  Judicial  power  should  be  vested.  But 
how.?  Precisely  in  all  respects  as  at  present  ?  No.  If  they  adopted  that  resolution 
alone,  all  the  essential  characteristics  of  the  County  Courts  would  be  retained.  But, 
might  they  not  say,  that  power  should  be  vested  in  the  County  Courts,  but  that  their 
organization  should  be  varied  in  such  and  such  particulars  ?  Surely,  there  was  no 
inconsistency  between  these  two.  The  general  provision  would  have  reference  to  a 
well-known  subject,  while  the  subsequent  clause  went  to  qualify  the  generahty.  The 
Convention  would  declare,  that  the  County  Courts  of  Virginia  should  be  such  as  they 
now  were,  save  in  such  respects  as  they  chose  to  modify  them.  The  gentleman  from 
Northampton  thought  with  them,  and  ought  to  vote  with  them.  He  need  not  discard 
the  word  the,"  for  fear  the  Convention  should  control  themselves.  Any  qualifica' 
lions  of  the  general  proposition,  would  be  considered  on  their  own  merits.  Let  it  be 
remembered,  that  the  County  Courts  were  not  the  creatures  of  this  body,  but  had 
subsisted  in  Virginia  long  before  it  came  into  existence ;  and  though  the  institution 
was  not  now  erected  in  terms,  it  was  referred  to  as  already  in  existence.  There  could 
be  no  difficulty,  either  in  understanding  the  clause,  or  in  practising  under  it.  The 
power  of  the  Legislature  would  not  be  controlled  or  restricted,  but  would  be  fully  and 
legitimately  exercised.  These  courts  had  been  organized  since  76.  Should  the  Con- 
stitution refer  to  tliem  as  the  County  Courts,  it  would  refer  to  them  as  they  had  ex- 
isted at  the  time  of  its  adoption :  and  it  would  leave  to  the  Legislature  full  power  to 
act  on  the  subject.  Mr.  J.  concluded,  by  declaring  his  intention  to  vote  against  any 
qualification  of  the  existing  system. 

The  question  being  at  length  taken  on  striking  out  the  word  ^'  i/te,"  before  the  words 
"  Coimty  Courts,''  it  was  decided  in  the  negative. — Ayes  44,  Noes  50. 

So  the  word  "  the,"  was  retained. 

Messrs.  Madison,  Monroe  and  Marshall  voting  against  striking  out  the  word  "  the." 

So  the  Committee  resolved  to  retain  the  first  resolution,  in  these  words  : 
The  Judicial  power  shall  be  vested  in  a  Court  of  Appeals,  in  such  Inferior  Courts 
as  the  Legislature  shall  from  time  to  time  ordain  and  establish,  and  in  the  County 
Courts." 

Mr.  Mercer  now  renewed  his  motion,  to  pass  over  the  residue  of  the  report  of  the 
Judiciary  Committee,  and  expressed  it  as  his  desire,  that  the  several  propositions  for 
compromise  should  be  taken  up,  not  as  in  the  character  of  amendments,  but  as  dis- 
tinct substantive  propositions. 

After  a  desultory  debate  on  points  of  order,  this  arrangement  prevailed,  and  the 
Committee  proceeded  to  consider  the  proposition  offered  by  Mr.  Upshur. 

Mr.  Madison  now  rose  and  addressed  the  Chair  :  the  members  rushed  from  their 
seats,  and  crov^ded  around  him. 

Although  (says  he)  the  actual  posture  of  the  subject  before  the  Committee  might 
admit  a  full  survey  of  it,  it  is  not  my  purpose,  in  rising,  to  enter  into  the  wide  field  of 
discussion,  which  has  called  forth  a  display  of  intellectual  resources  and  varied  powers 
of  eloquence,  that  any  country  might  be  proud  of,  and  which  I  have  witnessed  with 
the  highest  gratification.  Having  been,  for  a  very  long  period,  withdrav\'n  from  any 
participation  in  proceedings  of  deliberative  bodies,  and  under  other  disqualifications 
now,  of  which  I  am  deeply  sensible,  though  perhaps  less  sensible  than  others  may 
perceive  that  I  ought  to  be,  I  shall  not  attempt  more  than  a  few  observations,  which 
may  suggest  the  views  I  have  taken  of  the  subject,  and  which  will  consume  but  little 
of  the  time  of  the  Committee,  now  become  precious.  It  is  sufficiently  obvious,  that 
persons  and  property  are  the  tv»^o  great  subjects  on  which  Governments  are  to  act; 
and  that  the  rights  of  persons,  and  the  rights  of  property,  are  the  objects,  for  the  pro- 
tection of  which  Government  was  instituted.  These  rights  cannot  well  be  separated. 
The  personal  right  to  acquire  property,  which  is  a  natural  right,  gives  to  property, 
when  acquired,  a  right  to  protection,  as  a  social  right.  The  essence  of  Government 
is  power;  and  power,  lodged  as  it  must  be  in  human  hands,  will  ever  be  liable  to 
abuse.  In  monarchies,  the  interests  and  happiness  of  all  may  be  sacrificed  to  tlie 
caprice  and  passions  of  a  despot.  In  aristocracies,  the  rights  and  welfare  of  the  many 
may  be  sacrificed  to  the  pride  and  cupidity  of  the  few.  In  republics,  the  great  danger 
is,  that  the  majority  may  not  sufficiently  respect  the  rights  of  the  minority.  Some 


538 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


gentlemen,  consulting  the  purity  and  generosity  of  their  own  minds,  without  adverting 
to  the  lessons  of  experience,  would  find  a  security  against  that  danger,  in  our  social 
feelings;  in  a  respect  for  character;  in  the  dictates  of  the  monitor  within;  in  the 
interests  of  individuals;  in  the  aggregate  interests  of  the  community.  But  man  is 
known  to  be  a  selfish,  as  well  as  a  social  being.  Respect  for  character,  though  often 
a  salutary  restraint,  is  but  too  often  overruled  by  other  motives.  When  numbers  of 
men  act  in  a  body,  respect  for  character  is  often  lost,  just  in  proportion  as  it  is  neces- 
sary to  control  what  is  not  right.  We  all  know  that  conscience  is  not  a  sufficient 
safe-guard ;  and  besides,  that  conscience  itself  may  be  deluded ;  may  be  misled,  by 
an  unconscious  bias,  into  acts  which  an  enlightened  conscience  would  forbid.  As  to 
the  permanent  interest  of  individuals  in  the  aggregate  interests  of  the  community, 
and  in  the  proverbial  maxim,  that  honesty  is  the  best  policy,  present  temptation  is  too 
often  found  to  be  an  over-match  for  those  considerations.  These  favourable  attributes 
of  the  human  character  are  all  valuable,  as  auxiliaries;  but  they  will  not  serve  as  a 
substitute  for  the  coercive  provisions  belonging  to  Government  and  Law.  They  will 
always,  in  proportion  as  they  prevail,  be  favourable  to  a  mild  administration  of  both : 
but  they  can  never  be  relied  on  as  a  guaranty  of  the  rights  of  the  minority  against  a 
majority  disposed  to  take  unjust  advantage  of  its  power.  The  only  effectual  safe- 
guard to  the  rights  of  the  minority,  must  be  laid  in  such  a  basis  and  structure  of  the 
Government  itself,  as  may  afford,  in  a  certain  degree,  directly  or  indirectly,  a  defen- 
sive authority  in  behalf  of  a  minority  having  right  on  its  side. 

To  come  more  nearly  to  the  subject  before  the  Committee,  viz :  that  peculiar  fea- 
ture in  our  community,  which  calls  for  a  peculiar  division  in  the  basis  of  our  Govern- 
ment, I  mean  the  coloured  part  of  our  population.  It  is  apprehended,  if  the  power 
of  the  Commonwealth  shall  be  in  the  hands  of  a  majority,  who  have  no  interest  in 
this  species  of  property,  tlmt,  from  the  facility  with  which  it  may  be  oppressed  by  ex- 
cessive taxation,  injustice  may  be  done  to  its  owners.  It  would  seem,  therefore,  if 
we  can  incorporate  that  interest  into  the  basis  of  our  system,  it  will  be  the  most  ap- 
posite and  effectual  security  that  can  be  devised.  Such  an  arrangement  is  recom- 
mended to  me  by  many  very  important  considerations.  It  is  due  to  justice;  due  to 
humanity;  due  to  truth;  to  the  sympathies  of  our  nature;  in  fine,  to  our  character 
as  a  people,  both  abroad  and  at  home,  that  they  should  be  considered,  as  much  as  pos- 
sible, in  the  light  of  human  beings,  and  not  as  mere  property.  As  such,  they  are 
acted  upon  by  our  lav/s,  and  have  an  interest  in  our  Iaws.  They  may  be  considered 
as  making  a  part,  though  a  degraded  part,  of  the  families  to  which  they  belong. 

If  they  had  the  complexion  of  the  Serfs  in  the  North  of  Europe,  or  of  the  Villeins 
formerly  in  England ;  in  other  terms,  if  they  were  of  our  own  complexion,  much  of 
the  difficulty  would  be  removed.  But  the  mere  circumstance  of  complexion  cannot 
deprive  them  of  the  character  of  men.  The  Federal  number,  as  it  is  called,  is  parti- 
cularly recommended  to  attention  in  forming  a  basis  of  Representation,  by  its  sim- 
plicity, its  certainty,  its  stability,  and  its  permanency.  Other  expedients  for  securing 
justice  in  the  case  of  taxation,  while  they  amount  in  pecuniary  effect,  to  the  same 
thing,  have  been  found  hable  to  great  objections  :  and  I  do  not  believe  that  a  majority 
of  this  Convention  is  disposed  to  adopt  them,  if  they  can  find  a  substitute  they  can 
approve.  Nor  is  it  a  small  recommendation  of  the  Federal  number,  in  my  view,  that 
it  is  in  conformity  to  the  ratio  recognized  in  the  Federal  Constitution.  The  cases,  it 
is  true,  are  not  precisely  the  same,  but  there  is  more  of  analogy  than  might  at  first 
be  supposed.  If  the  coloured  population  were  equally  diftused  through  the  State, 
the  analogy  w^ould  fail ;  but  existing  as  it  does,  in  large  masses,  in  particular  parts  of 
it,  the  distinction  between  the  different  parts  of  the  State,  resembles  that  between 
the  slave-holding  and  non-slave^rolding  States  :  and,  if  we  reject  a  doctrine  in  our 
own  State,  whilst  we  claim  the  bejiefit  of  it  in  our  relations  to  other  States,  other 
disagreeable  consequences  may  be  added  to  the  charge  of  inconsistency,  which  will 
be  brought  against  us.  If  the  example  of  our  sister  States  is  to  have  weight,  we  find 
that  in  Georgia,  tlie  Federal  number  is  made  the  basis  of  Representation  in  both 
branches  of  tlieir  Legislature  :  and  I  do  not  learn,  that  any  dissatisfaction  or  incon- 
venience has  flowed  from  its  adoption.  I  wish  we  could  know  more  of  the  manner 
in  which  particular  organizations  of  Government  operate  in  other  parts  of  the  United 
States.  There  would  be  less  danger  of  being  misled  into  error,  and  we  should  have 
the  advantage  of  their  experience,  as  well  as  our  own.  In  the  case  I  mention,  there 
can.  I  believe,  be  no  error. 

Whether,  therefore,  we  be  fixing  a  basis  of  R.epresentation,  for  the  one  branch  or 
the  other  of  our  Legislature,  or  for  both,  in  a  combination  with  other  principles,  the 
Federal  ratio  is  a  favourite  resource  with  me.  It  entered  into  my  earhest  views  of 
the  subject,  before  this  Convention  was  assembled :  and  though  I  have  kept  my  mind 
open,  have  hstened  to  every  proposition  which  has  been  advanced,  and  given  to  them 
ail  a  candid  consideration,  I  must  say,  that  in  my  judgment,  we  shall  act  wisely  m 
preferring  it  to  others,  which  have  been  brought  before  us.  Should  the  Federal  num- 
ber be  made  to  enter  into  the  basis  in  one  branch  of  the  Legislature,  and  not  into  th© 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


539 


other,  such  an  arrangement  might  prove  favourable  to  the  slaves  themselves.  It  may 
be,  and  I  think  it  has  been  suggested,  that  those  who  have  themselves  no  interest  in 
this  species  of  property,  are  apt  to  sympathise  with  the  slaves,  more  than  may  be  the 
case  with  their  masters;  and  would,  therefore,  be  disposed,  when  they  had  the  ascen- 
dancy, to  protect  them  from  laws  of  an  oppressive  character,  wliilst  the  masters,  who 
have  a  common  interest  with  the  slaves,  against  undue  taxation,  which  must  be  paid 
out  of  their  labour,  will  be  their  protectors  when  they  have  the  ascendancy. 

The  Convention  is  now  arrived  at  a  point,  where  we  must  agree  on  some  common 
ground,  all  sides  relaxing  in  their  opinions,  not  clianging,  but  mutually  surrendering 
a  part  of  them.  In  framing  a  Constitution,  great  difficulties  are  necessarily  to  be 
overcome  ;  and  nothincr  can  ever  overcome  them,  but  a  spirit  of  compromise.  Other 
nations  are  surprised  at  nothing  so  much  as  our  having  been  able  to  form  Constitu- 
tions in  the  manner  which  has  been  exemplified  in  this  country.  Even  the  union  of 
so  many  States,  is,  in  the  eyes  of  the  world,  a  wonder  ;.  the  harmonious  establishment 
of  a  common  Government  over  them  all,  a  miracle.  I  cannot  but  flatter  myself,  that 
without  a  miracle,  we  shall  be  able  to  arrange  all  difficulties.  I  never  have  despaired, 
notwitiistanding  all  the  threatening  appearances  we  have  passed  through.  I  have 
now  more  than  a  hope — a  consoling  confidence,  tliat  v/e  shall  at  last  find,  that  our 
labours  have  not  been  in  vain. 

IMr.  Upshur  then  addressed  the  Chair,  as  follows  : 

jNIr.  Chairman  :  I  regret,  that  I  have  not  been  fortunate  enough  to  hear  any  of  the 
remarks  of  tiie  venerable  gentleman  from  Orange,  (Mr.  Ivladison.)  The  low  voice  in 
which  he  spoke,  and  the  eager  solicitude  to  hear  him,  which  drew  so  many  of  the 
Committee  around  his  person,  deprived  me  of  the  profit  which  I  could  not  have  failed 
to  derive  from  the  lessons  of  his  wisdom.  For  these  reasons,  I  am  unable  to  say  what 
bearing  his  remarks  were  designed  to  have  on  the  subject  immediately  befor^  us;  and 
of  course,  I  am  constrained  to  proceed  v/ith  the  development  of  ray  views,  without 
regard  to  those  remarks.  In  doing  this,  I  shall  carefully  abstain  from  any  laboured 
argument,  convinced  that  in  the  present  state  of  the  discussion,  no  such  argument 
can  be  necessary,  even  if  it  would  be  patiently  endured.  I  will,  therefore,  content 
myself  with  a  simple  reference  to  the  few  explanatory  remarks,  with  which  I  intro- 
duced these  resolutions  a  few  days  ago,  enlarging  on  them  only  so  far  as  may  be  ne- 
cessary to  a  full  and  correct  understanding  of  the  subject. 

It  must  be  evident  to  all,  that  I  am  contending  for  no  peculiar  principle.  Our  ex- 
perience cannot  have  failed  to  admonish  us,  that  no  good  can  result  from  that  array  of 
parties,  which,  from  the  very  commencement  of  our  session,  I  have  dreaded  and  de- 
precated. Nothing  can  now  be  done  by  a  contest  of  strength.  Argument  is  exhausted, 
and  no  hope  can  be  cherished  of  a  happy  result  to  our  labours,  except  in  that  spirit  of 
conciliation,  of  which  I  trust  every  one  of  us  feels  the  necessity.  We  all  profess  to 
have  a.bandoned  the  idea  of  carrjung  our  favorite  measures,  and  to  be  seeking,  in  good 
faith,  for  some  middle  ground,  on  which  we  mav  meet  and  harmonize.  Our  only 
enquiry,  therefore,  is,  where  can  this  middle  ground  be  found  Through  what  paths 
are  we  to  seek  it?  Each  party  must  be  prepared  to  abandon  something,  in  conside- 
ration of  something  to  be  abandoned  to  it  in  return.  And  these  concessions.  Sir, 
must  not  only  be  mutual,  but  they  must  be  eqiLoL  also.  In  this  way,  and  in  this  way 
only,  can  we  hope  to  rest  the  Constitution  on  the  sure  foundation  of  public  confi- 
dence. It  has  been  my  most  anxious  desire,  to  attain  this  golden  medium.  How  far 
I  have  succeeded,  it  is  for  the  Committee  now  to  determine. 

We  all  know.  Sir,  that  there  are  three  distinct  parties  in  this  body.  The  first  and 
most  numerous,  contends  for  the  basis  of  white  population;  the  second  contends  for 
the  basis  of  white  population  and  taxation  combined ;  and  the  third  contends  for  the 
basis  of  Federal  numbers.  Each  party  is  entirely  persuaded,  that  its  principle  is  right, 
and  each  is  desirous  to  carry  its  principle  into  both  Houses  of  the  General  Assembly. 
Neither  of  them,  however,  is  strong  enough  for  this  purpose ;  and  all  profess  to  be 
willing  to  depart  in  equal  degree  from  their  favourite  principle.  If  so,  Sir.  it  appears 
to  my  mind  most  evident,  that  our  present  office  is  merely  one  of  numbers.  Our 
object  can  be  obtained  by  a  simple  arithmetical  calculation,  and  that  too,  with  absolute 
certainty.  We  have  nothing  to  do,  but  to  add  together  the  results  of  the  several 
ratios,  and  ascertain  the  fair  average  of  all.  This  I  have  done.  I  have  fixed  the  re- 
presentation for  the  present  time,  and  adopted  the  same  principle  as  the  rule  for  all 
time  to  come.  This,  Sir,  is  the  true  average  of  principle.  I  am  willing  to  abide  by 
it,  whatever  may  be  its  effects  upon  tire  several  interests  of  the  Commonwealth.  I 
believe,  however — sincerely  I  believe,  that  of  all  the  plans  of  compromise  heretofore 
submitted,  this  is  most  favourable  to  our  Western  friends.  Indulge  me  in  a  short 
comparison. 

The  scheme  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  (Mr.  Gordon.)  is  founded  on  the 
Census  of  1S'20  :  mine  is  founded  on  the  Auditor's  estimates  for  18.29.  During  this 
interval,  the  population  of  the  West  has  increased  much  more  rapidly  than  that  of  the 
East;  and  of  course,  the  West  would  enjoy  the  advantage  of  this  increase  by  my 


540 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION, 


scheme,  and  lose  it  by  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle.    In  the  present  appor- 
tionment of  power,  our  plans  result  as  follows : 

For  the  House  of  Delegates — Fii'st  District,  or  District  West  of  the  Alleghany : 
Mr.  Gordon's,  .  =  26  members. 

The  plan  now  before  us,  -  -  ^  -  ^  26 

Second,  or  Valley  District: 
Mr.  Gordon's,  ......  24 

The  plan  now  before  us,  -  -  .  .  .  22 

Third,  or  Middle  District : 
Mr.  Gordon's,  =  37 

The  plan  now  before  us,         -  -         -         -  »  38 

Fourth,  or  Tide- Water  District: 
Mr.  Gordon's,  ......  33 

The  plan  now  before  us,  -  -  -  -  34 

Thus  it  appears,  that  according  to  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  the 
East  will  have  a  majority  of  twenty  in  the  House  of  Delegates  5  and  according  to  the 
plan  now  under  consideration,  it  will  have  a  majority  of  twenty-four.  This  difference^ 
however,  is  much  more  than  compensated  to  the  West,  in  the  Senate.  According  to 
the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  the  East  will  have  a  majority  of  four  in  a 
Senate  of  twenty-four  :  according  to  my  plan,  it  will  have  a  majority  of  only  four  in 
a  Senate  of  thirty.  In  truth,  Sir,  I  have  given  to  the  West  a  larger  number  in  the 
Senate,  than  it  can  fairly  claim  upon  my  own  principles.  My  reason  was  this  r  by 
an  exact  estimate,  the  first  District  would  be  entitled  to  six  and  a  half,  and  I  have 
given  it  seven ;  the  second  District  would  be  entitled  to  five  and  a  half,  and  I  have 
given  it  six  ;  the  third  District  would  be  entitled  to  nine  and  a  half,  and  I  have  given 
it  nine ;  the  fourth  District  would  be  entitled  to  eight  and  a  half,  and  I  have  given  it 
eight.  Thus,  I  have  taken  from  the  East  all  the  fractions  to  which  it  is  entitled, 
while  I  have  counted  the  same  fractions  as  integers  to  the  West.  I  trust  that  this 
will  be  received  as  some  proof  of  friendly  feeling,  and  a  conciliatory  temper,  on  the 
part  of  the  East. 

There  is,  however,  a  still  more  important  difference  between  the  gentleman  from 
Albemarle  and  myself.  He  has  provided  no  rule  for  future  apportionments,  whilst 
the  rule  proposed  by  me  secures  to  the  West  all  the  advantage  to  be  derived  from  her 
certain  increase  in  every  one  of  the  elements  of  which  that  rule  is  composed.  In» 
deed.  Sir,  the  only  doubt  should  be,  not  whether  the  West,  but  whether  the  East^ 
ought  to  accept  of  my  rule  ;  for  it  is  extremely  obvious,  that  the  East  has  every  thing 
to  lose,  and  little  or  nothing  to  gain,  whilst  the  West  has  every  thing  to  gain,  and 
literally  nothing  to  lose.  Our  tabular  statements  confirm  the  truth  of  this  remark. 
Population  in  the  East  is  nearly  full.  Our  white  population  increases  by  a  very  in- 
Considerable  ratio,  whilst  to  the  West,  it  increases  with  a  rapidity  which  exceeds  our 
most  sanguine  calculations.  On  this  one  of  the  three  ratios,  therefore,  their  advan- 
tage over  us  is  manifest.  In  like  manner,  our  taxation  is  probably  as  high  as  it  will 
ever  be ;  and  if  We  ourselves  are  consulted,  we  shall  scarcely  desire  an  increase  of 
political  power,  at  the  expense  of  an  increase  of  taxation.  Our  population  is  nearly 
stationary ;  our  agriculture  shews  us  no  wealth  in  the  distance ;  our  taxable  subjects 
are  as  numerous  as  they  will  be  for  years,  perhaps  in  all  time  to  come.  Not  so  with 
the  West.  As  the  people  increase  in  numbers,  their  wealth  will  increase  also.  Their 
taxable  subjects  will  multiply;  and  they  will  have  also  this  advantage;  that  the  in- 
crease of  their  taxes  v/iW  be  in  exact  proportion  to  the  increase  of  their  ability  to  pay. 
Even  here,  therefore,  they  have  every  reason  to  be  satisfied.  But,  this  is  not  alL 
Their  white  population,  in  which  their  increase  is  acknowledged  to  be  most  rapid,  is 
twice  counted  to  them.  It  is  counted  as  a  simple  element ;  and  it  is  again  counted 
in  combination  with  taxes.  The  same  remarks  apply  to  the  third  ratio,  or  Federal 
numbers.  We  have  already  as  many  slaves  as  our  agriculture  requires,  and. more 
than  we  find  profitable.  They  will  not,  it  is  to  be  hoped,  increase  to  any  extent  with 
tis ;  but  gentlemen  themselves  have  assured  us,  that  they  are  rapidly  increasing  to  the 
West.  They  assured  us  of  this,  in  order  to  allay  our  apprehensions  of  unjust  taxa- 
tion on  that  species  of  property.  I  offer  them  now  the  full  benefit  of  their  own  cal- 
culations. 

Gentlemen  will  perhaps  reply  that  my  rule  works  both  ways ;  that  while  I  hold  out 
to  them  the  prospect  of  advantage  from  multiplying  these  ratios,  the  East  also  enjoys 
the  benefit  of  two  of  these  ratios  in  a  greater  degree.  This  is  undoubtedly  true,  so  far 
as  the  present  time  is  concerned.  As  the  East  would  be  benefitted  by  both  the  ratios 
of  population  and  taxation  combined,  and  of  Federal  numbers,  she  undoubtedly  gains 
by  bringing  both  these  ratios,  instead  of  one  of  them  only,  in  connexion  with  another 
ratio  w^hich  is  adverse  to  her  interests.  But  the  gain  is  for  the  present  time  only,  and 
gentlemen  are  at  liberty  to  choose  between  a  small  comparative  advantage  now,  and 
Q.  double — nay,  a  four  fold  advantage  in  certain  prospect ;  and  that  too,  at  no  distant 
day.    On  this  subject,  however,  gentlemen  may  consult  their  own  views.    I  have 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


541 


taken  the  average  of  three  ratios  instead  of  two, because  I  considered  it  most  advantage- 
ous to  the  West,  and  because  I  was  anxious  to  advance  at  once,  to  the  ultimate  point 
of  concession.  I  will  not,  however,  force  upon  gentlemen  a  benefit  which  they  reject. 
I  give  them  a  carte  hlanche  ;  they  may  strike  from  my  three  ratios  any  one  they  please. 
In  this  particular,  the  proposition-of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  (Mr.  Leigh) 
meets  their  ideas,  and  I  have  no  hesitation  myself,  in  adopting  so  much  of  that  propo- 
sition, in  lieu  of  this  part  of  my  own. 

In  regard  to  the  proviso,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  but  a  few  words  to  say.  I  have  no 
ultimatum  as  to  the  number  of  either  House  of  the  General  Assembly.  I  must  be  per- 
mitted to  declare,  however,  that  a  Senate  of  twenty-four  is  not,  in  my  opinion,  large 
enough  for  a  territory  so  extensive  as  our  own.  If  our  Senators  were  chosen  by  elec- 
tors, and  those  electors  by  the  people,  the  number  of  the  Senate  would  be  a  matter  of 
comparative  indifference.  But  v-e  contemplate  no  such  regulation.  The  people  are 
to  be  alike  the  electors  of  both  Houses,  and  it  is  therefore  proper  to  establish  such  a 
proportion  between  the  representative  and  the  electoral  body,  as  will  enable  each  to 
know  the  other.  We  should  place  it  in  the  power  of  the  people  to  understand  the 
character,  and  weigh  justly,  tlie  pretensions  of  tlie  candidate,  and  the  services  of  the 
representative  ;  and  surely  it  is  of  the  utmost  importance  that  the  representative  should 
be  well  acquainted  with  the  feelings,  the  wishes,  and  the  interests  of  the  people.  This 
will  be  impossible,  if  the  Senatorial  Districts  be  too  widely  extended.  This  principle 
being  preserved,  I  cheerfully  surrender  the  details  of  my  plan  to  the  Committee. 

Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  entered  upon  this  delicate  task,  in  the  most  accommodating 
spirit.  So  far  as  I  am  myself  concerned,  there  are  now  before  us  two  other  plans  of 
compromise,  which  I  prefer  to  my  own.  My  object  is  to  settle  this  agitating  contest 
upon  just  and  fair  principles — nay,  Sir,  upon  liberal  principles,  and  I  have  gone  farther 
than  I  think  could  be  properly  required,  in  the  hope  of  meeting  the  wishes  of  others. 
I  consider  this  scheme  highly  favorable  to  the  West;  but  if  gentlemen  tliink  other- 
wise, I  offer  an  alternative  which  will  remove  all  just  objections.  If  any  just  princi- 
ple can  be  adopted,  it  must  be  manifest  to  all,  that  it  ought  to  be  tarried  into  both 
Houses  of  the  General  Assembly.  Upon  such  an  organization,  they  would  be  much 
more  apt  to  act  harmoniously,  than  if  they  were  organized  upon  opposite  and  antago- 
nist principles.  I  will  not  press  this  topic  farther,  because  my  present  business  is  not 
to  argue,  but  to  explain.  I  am  offering  a  scheme  for  comproinise ;  a  scheme  which  I 
humbly  think,  requires  only  to  be  understood,  in  order  to  be  embraced.  In  adopting 
it,  no  party  can  be  accused  of  conceding  more  than  it  receives  in  return.  It  is  evident 
that  a  compromise  which  concedes  only  that  which  would  have  been  obtained  with- 
out it,  or  such  as  does  not  in  the  least  weaken  the  powers  retained,  does  not  deserve 
the  name.  Such  a  compromise  as  will  carry  peace  to  the  people,  must  be  made  by  a 
suhstanUal  surrender  on  all  sides:  a  surrender  for  the  sake  of  peace,  and  one  which 
shall  appear  to  all,  to  be  nearly  if  not  exactly  equal.  Sir,  I  offer  such  a  compromise 
to  your  acceptance,  in  the  earnest  hope  that  it  will  reconcile  our  conflicting  claims, 
allay  all  the  excitements  of  this  dangerous  contest,  give  a  happy  issue  to  our  arduous 
labors,  and  enable  us  to  return  to  our  constituents  with  a  well-founded  hope,  that  we 
have  merited  their  confidence  and  favor. 

Mr.  JMoore  of  Rockbridge  rose  to  say  a  few  words  in  explanation  of  the  course  he 
intended  to  take.  When  he  last  addressed  the  Committee,  he  had  expressed  his  dis- 
approbation of  a  proposition  offered  by  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  and  since  pre- 
sented in  substance  by  tlie  gentleman  from  Goochland,  being  the  same  as  had  since 
been  offered  by  the  gentleman  from  Frederick  (Mr.  Cooke.)  He  had  then  been  op- 
posed to  all  compromise,  and  had  so  declared  himself,  because  he  believed  that  the 
East  was  not  entitled  to  any  representation  of  property  as  of  right,  nor  as  a  protection, 
and  because  he  was  convinced  that  the  principle  of  the  white  basis  was  laid  down  in 
the  Bill  of  Rights.  He  had  not  changed  his  opinion:  but  he  was  wilhng  to  do  now, 
what  he  had  not  been  willing  to  do  then. 

However  satisfied  he  might  be  of  the  rectitude  of  his  own  opinion,  he  considered 
that  m.uch  was  due  to  the  opinions  of  those  who  were  acting  with  him,  and  something 
also  to  the  fears  and  prejudices  of  gentlemen  on  the  other  side:  and  a  still  weightier 
consideration  with  hiiri  was  this  ;  that  his  constituents  were  willing  to  malve  a  sacrifice 
on  the  altar  of  peace.  These  considerations  alone  induced  him  to  vote  for  any  com- 
promise. He  was  opposed  to  all  the  projects,  and  if  he  voted  for  any,  it  would  be 
purely  from  a  spirit  of  conciliation.  Gentlemen  had  talked  much  of  the  unyielding 
spirit  of  the  West,  themselves  being  very  willing  to  yield  to  a  compromise  ;  provided 
they  may  fix  it  at  a  point  exactly  to  suit  themselves.  If  a  neighbor  of  his  had  long 
been  in  the  unrightful  possession  of  his  farm,  and  he  came  to  demand  his  own,  the 
wrong  does  not  offer  him  a  compromise,  but  it  would  be  to  give  up  all  that  he  owed 
him  for  the  use  of  the  property.  A  man  stole  his  horse,  and  then  offered  to  compro- 
mise, on  condition  that  he  would  give  up  the  horse  and  tlie  saddle  to  boot.  Just  such 
a  compromise  he  lield  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier,  (Mr.  Scott,) 


542 


DEBATES  OE  THE  CONVENTION. 


of  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  (Mr.  Upshur,)  and  of  the  gentleman  from 
Culpeper,  (Mr.  Green.) 

He  was  opposed  to  the  proposition  now  before  the  Committee  :  when  he  first  heard 
it,  he  was  astonished  that  the  gentleman  proposed  to  give  so  large  a  number  of  Sena- 
tors to  the  Western  District,  but  when  he  came  to  find,  that  that  number  was  made 
up  by  taking  fractions  from  other  districts,  he  found  it  to  be  the  effect  of  force.  He 
had  been  astonished  to  find,  that  the  West  was  to  get  more  by  the  plan  of  the  gentle- 
man from  Northampton,  who  makes  an  average  of  three  ratios,  than  by  that  of  the 
gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  who  gives  an  average  of  two  only. 

Mr.  Leigh  explained.  There  was  no  discrepancy  between  them,  except  as  to  the 
number  of  the  House  of  Delegates.  Mr.  L.  allowed  a  greater  ratio  of  increase  in  the 
West  than  in  the  East.  This  was  the  only  difference  between  his  plan  and  that  of 
Mr.  Marshall. 

Mr.  Moore  rephed,  that  let  the  difference  arise  as  it  might,  both  principles  were 
such  as  he  could  never  assent  to.  There  was  an  objection,  on  the  face  of  Mr.  L's 
plan.  It  did  not  allow  for  an  increase  for  the  West,  but  it  took  care  to  provide,  that 
let  that  increase  be  what  it  might,  a  majority  might  still  remain  East  of  the  Ridge. 
Mr.  M.  now  declared,  that  the  only  proposition  he  would  ever  assent  to,  was  that  of 
the  Federal  numbers  in  the  Senate,  and  the  white  basis  in  the  House  of  Delegates. 
He  had  voted  against  the  mixed  basis  in  the  Senate,  because  he  had  been  disposed  to 
act  in  a  fair  spirit  of  compromise,  but  farther  he  would  never  go.  Nor  did  he  mean 
to  be  understood  as  pledging  himself  to  go  even  thus  far  at  the  polls,  when  the  Con- 
stitution should  be  voted  for.  He  wished  first  to  know  the  will  of  his  constituents. 
The  gentleman  at  the  head  of  the  Judiciary  Committee  (Mr.  Marshall)  had  expressed 
his  desire  to  vote  for  some  proposition  which  would  meet  with  the  acceptance  of  tlie 
people  of  the  Commonwealth.  If  that  was  the  gentleman's  wish,  he  hoped  he  would 
vote  for  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick  (Mr.  Cooke ;)  for  he  could 
assure  him  that  the  people  of  the  West  never  would  adopt  and  never  would  submit 
to  any  such  proposition  as  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  (Mr.  Leigh,)  and 
in  his  opinion  they  never  ought  to  submit  to  it.  The  language  of  such  a  compromise 
was,  meet  us  on  the  ground  where  we  are  willing  to  meet,  or  we  will  break  up  and 
do  nothing.  As  to  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Stafford  (Mr.  Coalter)  it  had 
quite  too  many  sine  qua  nons  in  it :  more  by  far  than  he  had  heard  of  since  the  treaty  of 
Ghent.  Some  of  them  were  sine  qua  nons  with  him.  The  gentleman  had  boasted  of 
his  Scotch-Irish  blood ;  there  was  some  of  that  blood  in  his  own  veins,  and  he  consi- 
deired  it  at  least  equal  to  that  of  what  had  been  called  the  old  Virginia  stock.  It  was 
blood  which  had  been  shed  as  freely  in  the  cause  of  liberty;  the  two  had  mingled  in 
the  hour  of  our  revolution.  The  West  was  settled  by  the  Wallaces,  the  Graemes,  the 
Douglasses.  Every  man  was  with  Bruce,  save  Sir  John  Cummine,  and  he  was  found 
under  Edward's  standard.  He  was  sorry  to  see  him  there,  and  if  the  controversy  must 
come  to  be  settled  at  Bannockburn,  they  would  all  be  there,  and  old  Kirkpatrick 
among  the  rest.  But  it  must  be  settled  now.  This  question  was  not  to  be  put  off  till 
next  October ;  it  must  be  settled  now  or  not  at  all. 

Mr.  Cooke  said,  that  he  deeply  lamented  the  course  which  the  debate  had  taken, 
and  the  course  which  it  seemed  about  to  take.  From  my  soul,  said  he,  do  I  lament  it. 

I  listened,  Mr.  Chairman,  with  respectful  attention,  to  the  exposition  made  by  the 
gentleman  from  Northampton,  of  his  plan  of  a  compromise-basis  of  Representation 
in  the  Legislative  bodies.  And,  had  he  deemed  it  necessary  to  consume  a  far  greater 
portion  of  our  time  in  the  exjAanation  and  devclopement  of  his  plan,  I  should  have 
listened,  not  with  patience  only,  but  with  pleasure.  His  plan  is  a  nnv  one,  and  there- 
fore requires  development :  it  proposes  an  amicable  adjustment  of  a  dangerous  con- 
troversy, and  therefore  demands,  from  every  lover  of  his  country,  a  patient  and  res- 
pectful hearing. 

But,  Sir,  I  hstened,  I  confess,  with  other  feelings,  with  feehngs  not  of  impatience 
merely,  but  of  heartfelt  sorrow,  to  the  angry  declamation  of  the  gentleman  who  fol- 
lowed him.  I  did  conceive,  Sir,  that  the  flag  of  truce  was  flying  aloft — that  a  sus- 
pension of  hostilities  had  been  proclaimed — I  cherished  the  fond  but  delusive  hope 
that  the  war  was  at  an  end.  The  hope  was  indeed  delusive  :  for,  while  the  white  flag 
is  still  waving  over  our  heads,  the  war  has  recommenced.  In  the  midst  of  negocia- 
tion  the  cry  of  battle  is  raised.  Our  passions  are  sought  to  be  inflamed  by  angry  de- 
nunciations. We  are  told  of  blood  that  is  to  be  shed,  and  of  battles  that  are  to  be 
fought.  To  be  fought  between  whom.?  To  be  fought  between  friends— countrymen- 
brethren  ! 

Sir,  the  gentleman  who  has  uttered  these  angry  declamations,  should  have  reflected 
that  even  between  belligerent  nations  the  flag  of  truce  is  held  sacred — that  we  are 
actually  engaged  in  negociating  a  compromise — and  that  it  is  not  thus  that  we  are  to 
bring  our  conflicting  pretensions  to  an  amicable  adjustment.  Deeply — deeply,  do  1 
lament  tlie  course  he  has  pursued. 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


543 


For  myself,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  did  suppose,  that  after  a  three  -u-eeks  discussion  had 
exhausted  eQI  the  topics  wliich  belong  to  the  subject  of  the  apportionment  of  Repre- 
sentation,/uriAe/-  debate  of  any  sort  was  superfluous :  and  I  did  more  especially  sup- 
pose, that  polemical  debate,  while  plans  of  compromise  were  under  consideration, 
would  be  in  the  highest  degree  pernicious.  I  took  it  for  granted  that  the  schemes  of 
compromise  proposed  by  tlie  gentlemen  from  Northampton  and  Chesterfield,  would 
be  elaborately  developed,  fully  explained,  and  then  accepted  or  rejected  by  a  silent 
vote.  I  deemed  it  an  evil  augury,  then,  when  I  heard  the  gentleman  from  Chester- 
field remark,  that  these  plans  of  compromise  would  give  birth  to  "a  strenuous 
debate." 

What  good  purpose,  I  would  ask  him,  can  discussion  occasion.  The  plans  of  com- 
promise proposed  by  the  gentlemen  of  the  Middle,  and  Western  country,  by  the  mem- 
ber from  Northampton,  and  by  himself,  involve  no  element  of  representation  which 
is  not  fully  understood  by  every  member  of  the  Committee.  They  involve  topics 
too,  1  must  be  permitted  to  say,  which  have  already  elicited,  and  whose  discussion 
will  again  stir  up  the  angry  passions  of  this  excitable  body.  I  implore  the  gentleman 
from  Chesterfield  to  content  liimself  with  an  exposition  of  his  plan  of  compromise, 
ofiered,  1  believe,  with  a  sincere  view  to  the  adjustment  of  the  points  in  dispute,  and 
to  abandon,  for  the  sake  of  peace,  his  expressed  purpose  of  making  them  the  subject 
of  "  a  strenuous  debate."  I  would  say  to  that  gentleman,  in  the  words  of  his  favou- 
rite author, 

 Incedis  per  ignes 

Suppoiitos  cineri  doloso. 

I  would  warn  him,  that  there  are  fires  concealed,"  under  the  deceitful  ashes," 
over  which  he  rashly  proposes  to  tread :  That  by  pursuing  the  course  he  contemplates, 
he  will  kindle  again  the  half-extinguished  flames  of  discord,  and  run  the  risk  of  frus- 
trating the  object  so  dear  to  us  all. '~  I  again  entreat  lum  to  abandon  liis  purpose  of  de- 
hating  the  proposition  before  us. 

Let  us  have  no  more  strenuous  debate,"  on  tliis  subject  at  least — let  us  express 
by  our  votes,  our  deliberate  opinion  as  to  their  merits. 

If,  unhappily,  it  siaall  be  found  that  we  can  agree  on  nothing,  let  us,  at  least,  part 
in  peace.  Let  us  not  inflame  our  imaginations  and  our  passions,  by  declaiming  about 
wars  that  are  never  to  be  waged,  and  about  battles  that  are  never  to  be  fought. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  that  if  the  heart  of  the  gentleman  fi-om  Frederick,  and  his  own 
could  be  examined,  he  believed  they  would  be  found  more  in  unison  than  they  ap- 
peared to  be.  The  gentleman,  said  Mr.  L.,  tells  us  of  the  flag  of  truce  that  is  waving 
over  our  heads,  and  of  some  negociation  in  which  we  are  engaged.  If  there  be  such 
a  flag,  I  have  not  yet  seen  its  white  colours.  If  a  negociation  is  going  on.  I  am  not 
among  those  who  have  been  admitted  to  take  a  part  in  it.  If  there  has  been  any 
comparison  of  views,  and  any  eflbrt  towards  a  fair  adjustment  of  interests,  I,  at  least, 
have  not  been  admitted  to  the  conclave  :  perhaps  it  has  been,  because  I  do  not  de- 
serve it;  perhaps  the  part  I  took  has  excluded  me.  When  I  asked  that  the  snbject 
might  be  postponed  until  I  should  have  time  to  ofier  what  I  considered  as  a  fair  com- 
promise, in  which  something  was  to  be  yielded  by  both  sides,  I  indicated  the  nature  of 
the  compromise  I  meant  to  propose.  At  that  very  time,  the  proposition  of  the  gen- 
tleman from  Goochland,  (Mr.  Pleasants,)  vras  pending.  I  then  ofiered  the  flag  of 
truce,  and  I  did  not  withdraw  it,  till  the  flag  of  truce  was  fired  on ;  tiU  I  was  told 
that  my  proposition  would  be  rejected,  without  the  least  hesitation.  It  was  then  I 
intimated  that  gentlemen  might  expect  strenuous  debate.  Would  to  Heaven  I  were 
willing  to  meet  and  to  fulfil  that  promise;  and  never,  while  I  have  health  to  make  my 
protest  heard,  never  will  I  surrender  the  principle,  that  property  is  to  be  vrholly  and 
utterly  disregarded.  The  gentleman  from  E.ockbridge,  teUs  us  of  his  Scotch-Irish 
blood.  That  gentleman  knows — yes,  Sir,  he  well  knows,  that  I  have  no  prejudice 
against  it.  ISobody  knows  tliat  better  than  he.  He  has  felt  the  efiects  of  it  in  his 
own  person.    I  am  far  from  blaming  the  gentleman — I  respect  the  sentiment. 

But,  let  me  tell  him,  that  although  personally  there  is  not  a  man  in  the  Common- 
wealth or  in  this  world  that  I  would  not  as  soon  meet  as  him,  yet  if  he  brings  us  to 
Bannockburn,  he  wiU  find  that  Old  Virginia  is  as  httle  disposed  to  submit  to  injustice 
as  Xeic  Virginia.  To  what  purpose  are  these  threats  i  Does  he  suppose — can  the 
gentleman  suppose,  that  Old  Viroinia  is  to  be  scared  whenever  he  shews  the  glittering 
sword  Does  he  imagine  that  w-e  have  lost  all  spirit,  and  all  courage  ?  and  are  pre- 
pared to  submit  to  any  yoke,  that  they  propose  to  fasten  upon  us  ?  I  put  it  to  tlie  gen- 
tleman, knowing  the  persons  whom  he  addresses,  whether  their  spirit  is  not  at  least 
as  warm,  as  generous,  and  as  true  as  the  spirit  of  that  gentleman's  own  country. 

Here  Mr.  ^Moore  explained — declaring  that  he  had  never  expected  or  intended  to 
alarm  the  gentlemen  of  the  East,  but  some  gentleman  had  made  a  distmction  between 
the  Old  Virginia  stock,  and  he  presumed,  the  New  Virginia  stock;  and  if  ground 
like  that,  was  to  be  taken,  he  would  inform  that  gentleman,  or  any  other,  that  they 


544 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


of  the  West  were  prepared  to  take  their  stand :  that  they  had  no  thought  of  yielding-, 
and  never  would  be  driven  to  the  wall.  He  had  gone  as  far  as  he  meant  to  go,  and 
never  would  go  further. 

Mr.  Leigh  resumed:  It  was  I  who  alluded  to  Old  Virginia,  but  I  did  so  in  no  dis- 
respecttul  spirit.  1  thought  1  spoke  in  a  manner  highly  complimentary,  for  1  put  the 
New  Virgmia  stock  on  precisely  the  same  footing  as  the  old.  I  never  manifested  the 
least  partiality  between  them. 

Mr.  Ciiairman :  Though  1  did  mean  to  debate  these  propositions  with  all  the  strength  ^ 
that  God  had  given  me,  never  did  I  rise  with  the  same  embarrassment,  as  I  have  ex- 
perienced on  this  occasion.  I  went  to  work  with  the  honest  purpose  of  compromise. 
I  met  with  difficulties  without  number,  from  quarters  where  1  expected  only  support. 
I  thought  I  had  done  ample  justice  to  the  West,  and  at  the  same  time  had  done  full 
justice  to  the  East,  and  I  expected  the  support  of  the  East  at  least,  if  of  no  other  part 
of  the  Coniinonweaith :  judge  then  what  was  my  surprise  and  affliction,  when  my 
good  friend  from  Richmond,  (Mr.  Marshall,)  gets  up  and  expresses  his  approbation  of 
my  plan,  and  in  the  very  next  breath,  says  that  he  will  accept  that  of  the  gentleman 
from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Cooke).  Up  gets  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  (Mr.  Mercer,) 
and  thanks  his  honoured  and  venerable  and  venerated  friend  from  Richmond,  for  say- 
ing that  he  will  vote  for  their  proposition,  and  immediately  after,  another  gentleman 
from  Loudoun,  (Mr.  Henderson,)  made  an  occasion  to  say  that  his  highly  venerated 
friend  was  his  political  father — that  he  took  delight  in  following  his  lessons,  and  that 
it  is  gratiiying  to  his  heart  to  find,  that  his  very  venerable  friend  from  Richmond,  was 
willing  to  take  what  they  proposed  to  give,  if  he  could  not  get  what  he  preferred. 
But,  Kir,  have  we  heard  one  word  like  a  purpose  to  meet  the  generous  spirit  of  that 
gentleman  with  a  like  generous  spirit?  Any,  the  least  intimation,  that  if  their  propo- 
sition failed,  they  v/ould  accede  to  his?  Not  one  word.  Not  one  word,  Sir, — not  a 
syllable.  To  our  atiections  they  make  their  appeal  with  confidence ;  but  when  we  in 
return  make  our  appeal  to  the  teelings  of  Old  Virginia,  or  New  Virginia,  from  them, 
we  hear  not  one  breath  out  of  their  hps.  The  generous  and  affectionate  disposition 
of  the  gentleman  from  Richmond  they  applaud  and  countenance — but  tlicy — they  will 
yield  nothing  !  They  were  called  upon  to  stand  firm,  and  firm  they  stand. 

The  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  (Mr.  Henderson,)  is  willing  to  follow  the  gentle- 
man from  Richmond  as  his  political  father :  in  his  wisdom,  his  virtue,  his  prudence, 
his  good  sense,  he  has  the  most  unbounded  reliance  upon  all  of  it:  and  then  he  tells 
him,  it  is  his  vote  he  wants,  and  not  his  advice.  It  is  his  vote  he  values;  yet  at  the 
same  instant,  he  must  have  known  that  that  gentleman  had  said,  he  would  take  their 
proposition  only  as  a  last  resort,  and  that  he  had  recommended  mine.  Sir,  I  beg  the 
gentlemen  from  Loudoun,  to  act  fairly  and  to  follow  the  advice  of  the  gentleman 
from  Richmond  :  but  if  it  is  not  that,  but  his  vote  only  that  he  v/ants,  then  let  him 
come  out  fairly  and  openly  and  say  so. 

It  is  not  his  vote  onl}'^  tliat  I  want,  I  shall  get  that ;  I  want  his  support:  I  want  his 
w^eight  of  character :  I  am  here  feeble,  and  almost  alone:  alone,  at  least  in  this,  that 
I  am  the  only  one  who  think  it  proper  to  debate  this  ground.  I  want  such  support  as 
lie  gave  to  the  system  of  the  County  Courts  ;  let  me  have  that  support  firmly  and 
steadily  :  let  me  have  the  weight  of  his  mind  :  and  then  the  propriety  of  that  propo- 
sition will  be  more  perceptible  to  the  House. 

When  I  got  to  the  House  on  Monday,  I  found  the  gentleman  from  Northamptom 
upon  the  flom-  explaining  the  nature  of  his  proposition.  I  heard  but  a  few  of  his  re- 
marks, and  the  few  of  the  details  that  I  did  hear,  were  not  sufficient  to  inform  me  of 
the  precise  nature  of  his  proposition.  I  did,  to  be  sure,  hear  it  read  by  the  Clerk, 
but  for  reasons  which  must  be  familiar  to  every  gentleman  who  has  ever  attended  to 
the  mere  reading  of  a  document  where  figures  are  concerned,  I  could  not  collect  the 
precise  sense  of  it.  I  lost  the  opportuiuty  of  seeing  it  before  it  was  presented,  by 
coming  late  to  the  House.  Had  1  come  but  a  few  moments  sooner,  so  as  to  have 
been  in  the  House  when  it  was  ofiered,  I  should  have  suggested  to  that  gentleman  a 
slight  modification,  and  not  offered  mine  at  all.  That  modification  would  have  been 
only  in  the  details,  and  arising  simply  out  of  this  circumstance,  that  after  repeated 
trials  and  considerations,  I  found  when  I  came  to  district  the  small  counties,  that  one 
hundred  and  twenty-six,  was  a  more  convenient  number  for  the  House  of  Delegates, 
than  one  hundred  and  twenty.  But,  I  should  have  been  contented  to  take  all  the 
gentleman's  resolutions,  and  I  will  take  them  now,  leaving  the  details  for  future  ar- 
rangement. I  will  consent  to  withdraw  mine,  only  submitting  as  an  amendment  to 
his  the  number  one  hundred  and  twenty-six,  instead  of  one  hundred  and  twenty 
members  in  tli^  House  of  Delegates.  I  should  prefer  its  increase  hereafter.  How 
that  may  meet  the  minds  of  the  members  from  the  West,  I  do  not  pretend  to  under- 
stand. 

I  came  yesterday  fully  determined,  if  the  debate  should  be  forced  on  the  Committee, 
that  I  would  avow  my  willingness  to  take  his  proposition,  and  to  withdraw  mine.  I 
came  with  a  confidence  arising  from  that  sanguine  temperamentj  with  which  I  am 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


545 


either  blest  or  cursed,  (and  I  redly  cannot  tell  whether  it  is  more  a  blessing  or  a  curse,) 
that  I  should  be  able  to  convince  gentlemen  from  the  West  that  I  meant  them  fair : 
that  I  had  come  in  the  real  spirit  of  compromise  ;  but.  Sir,  I  soon  met  with  a  damper. 
A  gentleman  got  up,  (Mr.  Coalter.)  and  addressing  the  Committee,  divided  as  all 
knew  this  Committee  to  be.  declared  that  he  would  take  the  principle  of  the  white 
basis,  if  they  would  give  him  landed  Sufiiage;.  a  vote  for  lease-holders;  an  election  of 
Governor  by  both  Houses  :  an  Executive  Council,  and  the  County  Court  system.  If 
each  and  all  of  these  things  were  not  complied  with,  they  would  find  him  **'  firm  as  a 
rock,  or.  in  other  words,  as  a  Scotch-Irishman."  Such  was  his  own  language.  Did 
the  gentleman  consider  what  he  was  doing Did  he  recollect,  that  any  member  of  this 
Committee  by  simply  going  over  to  the  opposite  party,  has  the  absolute  power  at  once 
to  put  an  end  to  the  rights  of  that  side  to  which  he  belongs?  1  have  only  to  yield, 
and  the  question  is  at  an  end ;  and  that  gentleman  has  only  to  yield,  and  it  is  more 
than  at  an  end;  for  he  is  well  known  to  possess  that  indomitable  spirit,  which,  when 
once  he  has  taken  a  stand,  leaves  no  hope  of  change. 

The  gentleman  from  Rockbridge  meets  the  gentleman  from  Stafford,  and  is  willing 
to  give  him  all  he  asks  on  the  simple  condition,  that  he  shall  take  away  immediately 
all  he  had  given.  Do  gentlemen  remember  that  this  Convention  was  called  on  the 
declared  principle,  that  the  people  have  aright  to  amend  the  Constitution?  Do  they 
tliink  that  no  other  Convention  will  ever  be  called  ?  When  we  have  thrown  all  they 
ask  into  their  hands,  does  ctny  gentleman  imagine  they  will  be  content  ?  What  is 
there  to  take  away  the  inherent  right  of  the  people  to  call  Convention  after  Conven- 
tion, till  members  shall  have  got  all  they  demand  ?  Do  gentlemen  suppose  that 
w^hen  this  new  Constitution  shall  be  given,  there  will  be  no  more  complaints — no 
clamours  ?  Do  they  think  the  new  Constitution  wiU  be  made  so  perfect,  as  to  be  in- 
capable of  amendment  ?  What  is  to  prevent  the  call  of  a  Convention  at  any  moment, 
but  some  effort  by  those  who  are  able  to  take  power  into  their  own  hands,  and  caU  for 
the  protection  of  property  ? 

In  the  commencement  of  this  debate,  all  the  gentlemen  on  the  other  side  told  us 
that  an  equal  participation  of  pohtical  power  was  the  grand  ftmdamental  principle,  to 
depart  from  which,  was  to  estabhsh  an  aristocracy  or  monarchy,  and  that  all  those 
who  did  not  share  in  that  power,  were  at  once  made  slaves.  I  will  do  the  ofentleman 
from  Rockbridge  the  justice  to  own  that  his  course  is  consistent,  except  in  one  re- 
spect :  he  tells  us  that  it  is  aristocracy  to  base  the  Representation  in  the  House  of 
Delegates  on  any  thing  else  than  the  number  of  free  vmite  citizens,  and  he  formerly 
told  us  the  same  thing  in  relation  to  the  Senate.  But  now  I  find  that  aristocracy 
may  be  tolerated  in  the  Upper  House,  if  they  have  democracy  in  the  Lower.  Now, 
there  is  nothing  in  the  Bill  of  B.ights  to  prevent  our  basing  the  Senate  on  an  aristo- 
cratical  principte,  and  the  Lower  House  on  a  democratical  one.  They  have  found 
out,  at  last,  that  convenience  may  modify  a  general  principle  and  adapt  it  to  the  wants 
and  circumstances  of  the  community.  Sir,  I  defy  the  gentlemen  to  relieve  them- 
selves from  the  inconsistency  charged.  (I  do  not  say  proved  but  charged)  upon  them, 
on  any  principle  in  the  world  but  this  :  They  know  that  if  they  get  the  white  basis 
in  the' Lower  House,  it  is  a  matter  of  no  sort  of  consequence  what  basis  you  adopt  in 
the  Senate — none,  Sir — none  at  all.  You  have  no  control  over  the  Lower  House, 
and  cannot  have. '  When  they  offer  this  basis  in  the  Senate,  they  know,  perfectly, 
that  practically  it  will  be  of  no  avail.  They  will  have  as  complete  possession  of  the 
Government  and  the  property  of  the  State,  as  it  is  possible  for  them  to  have — they 
know  it,  perfectly,  if  all  the  friends  of  the  compound  basis  do  not.  They  know  it, 
and  feel  it.  It  is'  only  among  us  that  the  idea  is  to  be  found  that  there  is  to  be  any  pro- 
tection in  the  Senate.  The  Senate  based  on  the  Federal  numbers  is  to  be  our  protec- 
tion. The  Senate !  Are  thev  to  orio-inate  money  bills  ?  If  you  give  them  that  power,  you 
overturn  at  once  the  elemeiitary  principles  of  Republican  Government;  you  overturn 
the  entire  theory  on  which  the  two  branches  have  been  kept  separate  hitherto.  Gentle- 
men, I  suppose"!  hardly  intend  this.  Well,  you  are  to  have  the  Federal  numbers  in 
the  Senate  and  the  white  basis  in  the  House  of  Delegates — the  Senate  is  to  be  the 
Representative  of  property — of  slaves.  What  then?  Do  you  give  them  the  sole 
power  to  reject  money  bills  without  amendment  ?  or  do  you  let  them  amend  ?  What 
then  ?  The  Lower  House  sends  up  a  money  bill  laying  unequal  exactions  on  pro- 
pertv :  the  Senate  rejects  the  bill:  Do  not  all  gentlemen  see  that  by  withholding 
another  money  bill,  which  is  very  much  needed,  they  can  at  anytime  throw  on  the  Se- 
nate the  responsibility  of  stopping  the  wheels  of  Government  ?  But  they  amend  the  bill : 
what  then?  The  Lower  House  rejects  the  amendments,  and  then  the  same  confro- 
versy  and  all  the  same  consequences  ensue.  Which  of  these  two  bodies,  think  you, 
wUl "prevail  in  such  a  contest?  The  Senate — a  small  body  of  men  elected  for  four 
years— or  the  House  of  Delegates,  a  large  body  of  men,  and  elected  but  for  a  single 
year?  Has  any  body  heard  of  a  solitary  case  where  the  Senate  has  stood  out  and  de- 
feated the  Lower  House  any  where  ?    The  only  function  of  the  Senate  is  to  suspend 

69 


54G 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


the  order  of  the  Lower  House,  till  the  House  shall  have  time  to  grow  cool  and  abandon 
their  project,  or  till  the  people  interpose  and  turn  them  out. 

I  appeal  not  to  the  examples  in  this  country :  I  appeal  to  the  history  of  England — 
to  the  House  of  Commons,  and  the  House  of  Lords.  What  proposition  was  ever 
perseveringly  pressed  by  the  Commons  and  defeated  by  the  other  House  ?  I  am 
talking  to  gentlemen  who  are  presumed  to  have  studied  the  history  and  institutions  of 
the  mother  country,  (if,  I  may  be  permitted  to  call  it  by  that  name ;)  and  I  ask  them  to 
produce  to  me  a  single  instance.  Yet,  we  are  to  expect  from  the  Senate  ample  pro- 
tection and  resistance  against  the  power  of  the  Lower  House.  Sir,  are  there  no 
means  of  influence  which  can  be  brought  to  bear 

If  appointments  are  to  be  made  by  a  joint  vote  of  the  two  Houses,  then  the  whole 
patronage  of  Government  will  be  in  the  House  of  Delegates. 

If,  by  concurrent  vote,  great  weight  will  be  given  to  the  Lower  House,  by  its  im- 
mediate connexion  with  the  people.  I  desire  any  gentleman  to  tell  me  the  reason, 
why  members  of  the  Senate  are  elected  for  four  years,  and  members  of  the  Lower 
House  for  only  one  ?  Why  ?  What  is  the  motive  ?  You  do  not  change  the  character 
of  individuals  :  the  men  are  just  the  same.  Why,  then,  do  you  allow  members  of 
the  Lower  House  a  shorter  term  ?  Because  they  have  the  tax-giving  power.  The 
Lower  House  sends  up  a  money-bill :  if  the  people  are  dissatisfied  with  it,  the  next 
year  they  turn  them  all  out.  But,  if  they  are  displeased  with  the  Senate,  how  can 
they  get  rid  of  tiieni  ?  That  body  remains  firm  and  stable.  They  remain  beyond 
the  reach  of  the  people:  all  the  evils  have  been  accomplished  and  felt,  and  it  is  too 
late  to  correct  them.  Constitute  your  two  Houses  on  two  different  bases,  and  then 
one  will  be  the  democratic  House,  and  the  other  will  be  the  aristocratic  House.  All 
those  who  happen  to  have  a  little  property,  and  much  more  those  who  have  respect 
for  such  as  do  own  it,  and  who  wish  them  to  retain  it  in  their  hands  ;  all  these  will  be 
the  friends  of  aristocracy.  Then  you  will  have  formed  the  Lower  House  on  a  demo- 
cratic principle,  and  the  Upper  and  smaller  House  on  an  aristocratic  one.  Now,  let 
there  be  a  contest  between  the  two :  and  you  will  hear  the  same  note  that  you  heard 
so  long  and  so  loud  before  this  Convention, — the  cry  of  aristocracy.  The  Senate  wnll 
immediately  be  condemned,  as  the  aristocratic  branch  of  the  Legislature,  and  what 
strength,  what  stability,  I  pray  you,  can  stand  against  that  blast?  What  shall  re- 
main firm  when  that  volcano  shakes  the  land.''  The  moment  that  contest  arises,  just 
as  certainly  as  this  Convention  sits,  will  another  Convention  be  called  to  abolish  the 
aristocratical  branch  in  the  Government.  Sir,  there  is  not  the  slightest  hope  of  its 
permanency.  They  begin  in  the  outset  with  different  principles  in  the  construction 
of  the  two  Houses  as  if  it  were  done  on  purpose  to  breed  new  monsters  to  excite  the 
passions  of  the  people. 

No,  Sir,  our  whole  chance  is  in  giving  some  protection  to  property  in  the  Lower 
House. 

Here  Mr.  Leigh  not  being  prepared  with  some  documentary  details  to  which  it 
would  be  necessary  to  refer  in  farther  prosecuting  his  argument,  moved  that  the  Com- 
mittee rise. 

It  rose  accordingly,  and  thereupon  the  House  adjourned. 


THURSDAY,  December  3,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev,  Mr. 
Parks  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

The  House  having  again  gone  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  Pleasants  in  the 
Chair, 

Mr.  Leigh  resumed  the  argument  he  had  suspended  yesterday,  and  went  into  an 
exposition  and  comparison  of  the  several  propositions,  offered  as  grounds  of  compro- 
mise. He  remonstrated  against  the  idea  of  considering  the  proposition  of  Mr.  Cooke, 
as  any  compromise  at  all,  and  dwelt  on  its  effect,  in  ultimately  swallowing  up  the 
power  of  the  Senate,  by  giving  it  an  organization,  similar  to  that  of  the  Lower  House, 
and  in  the  mean  while  cherishing  a  spirit  of  perpetual  strife  and  the  bitterest  enmity 
between  the  two  branches  of  the  Government. 

He  reviewed  the  plan  proposed  by  Mr.  Gordon,  and  compared  it  with  his  own, 
shewing  how  Mr.  G.  arrived  at  his  results,  and  insisting  that  if  it  should  be  adopted 
as  a  permanent  basis,  in  a  few  years  the  same  inequality  would  arise,  and  the  same 
strviggle  have  to  be  gone  over  again.  Mr.  L.  professed  himself  willing  to  take  Mr. 
Gordon's  plan  with  one  or  two  modifications. 

He  next  proceeded  to  review  Mr.  Upshur's  proposition,  with  which  he  was  better 
pleased,  and  v/hich  he  professed  himself  wilhng  to  adopt,  if  the  number  of  the  House 
of  Delegates  was  changed  from  one  hundred  and  twenty  to  one  hundred  and  twenty- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


647 


six,  a  more  convenient  number  in  relation  to  the  apportionment  of  districts ;  particu- 
larly in  the  Eastern  parts  of  the  State. 

(Mr.  Upshur  expressed  himself  willing  to  make  this  modification.) 

Mr.  Leigh  urged  gentlemen's  acceptance  of  the  principles  of  this  plan,  and  ex- 
pressed his  willingness  to  modify  the  details  in  any  way  tiiat  would  leave  the  princi- 
ples untouched. 

He  then  went  into  a  full  exposition  of  his  own  plan ;  the  general  principle  of  which 
was  to  split  the  difference  between  the  white  basis  and  the  mixed  basis ;  with  a  modi- 
fication. He  explained  the  difference  between  his  own  and  Mr.  Marshall's  plan, 
arising  chiefly  from  the  fact  that  the  latter  had  gone  upon  the  Census  of  1820,  while 
he  had  himself  endeavoured  to  ascertain  as  nearly  as  possible  the  present  population 
of  the  State. 

[To  make  the  parallel  more  intelligible,  we  have  here  thrown  side  by  side,  for  the 
apportionment  of  the  Houses,  all  the  schemes  proposed.] 


Schemes. 

Number  of  the 
House  of  Dele- 
gates. 

Number  of  the 
Senate. 

House  of 

Delegates. 

SE^'ATE. 

1st  or  West- 
ern district. 

2d  or  Valley 
district. 

3d  or  Mid- 
dle district. 

4th  or  Tide 
Water  dis- 
trict. 

Lst  district. 

2d  district. 

3d  district. 

4th  district.  | 

Mr.  Cooke's, 

120 

36 

Mr.  Gordon's, 

120 

26 

24 

37 

33 

Mr.  Upshur's, 

120 

26 

22 

38 

34 

7 

6 

9 

8 

Mr.  Marshall's 

12G 

24 

23 

43 

36 

Mr.  Leigh's, 

126 

26 

23 

42 

35 

He  stated  the  considerations  of  justice  which  had  induced  him  to  give  the  two  R.e- 
presentatives  which  Mr.  Marshall  gave  to  the  Middle  and  Tide-water  districts,  both 
to  the  West  or  Alleghany  district :  it  was  intended  to  meet  the  increasing  population 
of  the  West.  Besides,  that  district  having  twenty-six  counties  in  it,  he  thought  it 
ought  to  have  twenty-six  Deleorates  ;  else  the  district  became  too  large  to  admit  a  per- 
sonal knowledge  of  "the  Delegate  by  his  constituents,  and  the  proper  degree  of  inter- 
course between  them.  This  could  not  be  complained  of  by  the  Valley,  as  the  great 
Western  division  of  the  State  got  these  votes  on  every  question  where  Eastern  and 
Western  interests  would  come  in  conflict.  He  explained  it  also  to  have  been  his 
wish  to  have  taken  one  more  Delegate  from  each  of  the  two  Eastern  districts,  and 
given  them  also  to  the  West.  He  should  have  preferred  taking  both  from  the  Tide- 
water district ;  because  he  thought  policy  required  that  the  Middle  district  should  be 
strengthened  as  an  arbiter  between  the  two  extremes,  and  a  protector  to  both  :  to  the 
East,  against  unreasonable  taxation  of  their  slave  propert)'-,  because  it  held  large 
masses  of  that  property :  to  the  W^est,  against  any  niggardliness  of  the  East  respect- 
ing Internal  Improvements,  because  it  had  a  great  interest  in  all  reasonable  and  fea- 
sible schemes  for  Internal  Improvement. 

Mr.  L.  then  went  into  an  explanation  of  the  grounds  on  which  this  arrangement 
had  been  opposed  by  the  Delegates  from  the  Eastern  division,  who  insisted  on  that 
division's  having  thirty-six  Delegates  in  order  that  the  Richmond  district  might  have  its 
quota  of  five.  He  shewed  that  his  scheme  gave  a  larger  proportion  to  the  Eastern 
division,  or  Tide- water  country,  than  either  Mr.  Upshur's  or  Mr.  Gordon's  :  thirty-five 
out  of  one  hundred  and  twenty-six,  being  better  than  thirty-two  out  of  one-hundred 
and  twenty.  (See  the  table  above.)  Mr.  L.  here  went  into  a  number  of  details  as 
to  the  apportionment  of  representatives  among  the  various  districts  in  the  lower 
country,  concluding  from  the  whole  statement  the  unreasonableness  of  the  pertinacity 
which  had  diminished  the  advantage  of  his  scheme,  by  insisting  on  so  full  a  represen- 
tation for  the  Richmond  district.  He  addressed  an  argument  to  the  members  from 
the  Middle  district,  and  who  were  in  favour  of  Mr.  Gordon's  plan — shewing  that  they 
would  be  greater  gainers  on  his  own  schem.e.  To  shew  that  what  he  had  before  said, 
as  to  the  large  counties  of  the  West,  and  the  propriety  that  one  representative  should 
be  allowed  to  each  of  them,  was  not  said  pro  rc  nata,  merely  to  suit  the  case  in  hand, 
but  had  long  before  been  his  settled  and  avowed  opinion,  Mr.  Leigh  read  extracts 
from  a  publication  of  his  in  1824,  called  the  Substitute,  which  went  to  the  same  ef- 
fect and  covered  much  of  the  ground  he  had  lately  been  occupying  in  the  general 
debate.  He  then  passed  to  some  general  reflections  on  the  state  of  existing  parties — 
the  odious  nature  of  the  struggle,  the  responsibility  of  those  who  had  brought  it  on, 
and  its  painful  effect  on  his  own  feelings. 


548 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION, 


He  then  went  on  to  shew  his  reasons  for  the  provision  which  forms  a  part  of  his 
plan,  that  the  Legislature  might  lay  off  eight  counties  to  the  West  of  the  Ridge  when- 
ever their  increase  of  population  sliould  justify  it.  He  thought  it  hard,  that  this  part 
of  his  plan  should  have  been  censured,  because  he  had  not  made  this  imperative  upon 
the  Legislature.  He  professed  his  readiness  to  accommodate  the  representation  of 
every  portion  of  the  State  to  its  circumstances,  and  his  willingness  to  meet  gentle- 
men of  the  West  in  a  fair  spirit  of  compromise,  on  grounds  of  expediency,  (but  not 
of  imagined,  natural  or  divine  right  to  an  equal  representation  of  equal  numbers). 
He  concluded  the  review  of  his  plan  by  alluding  to  the  variation  in  the  population 
of  the  same  counties  at  different  times,  and  then  stated  the  arrangement  he  had  made 
to  meet  this  by  allowing  the  representation  to  increase  and  diminish  when  circum- 
stances should  require. 

Mr.  L.  then  adverted  in  very  forcible  language  to  the  prospect  which  lay  before  the 
Commonwealth,  should  all  compromise  be  rejected.  He  proiessed  his  great  horror  at 
the  idea  of  a  division  of  the  State  :  of  a  civil  war  he  felt  no  fears,  because  the  pres- 
sure of  the  General  Government  would  prevent  it,  else  it  would  be  inevitable.  All 
seemed  thus  far  to  have  gone  on  it  as  a  conceded  ground  that  the  West  never  would 
submit,  but  that  the  East  would.  He  repelled  such  an  idea;  said  the  East  had  an  al- 
ternative, and  that  he  should  despise  himself  as  a  driveller  if  he  could  see  none.  He 
knew  perfectly  what  it  was.  He  could  not  suppose  the  General  Government  would 
refuse  their  assent  to  a  division  of  the  State,  which  would  break  the  power  of  Vir- 
ginia. It  would  not  be  according  to  their  past  poUcy  so  to  refuse — and  if  the  State 
should  be  divided  by  the  Ridge,  it  would  be  but  a  short  time  before  the  Valley  would 
have  to  take  the  same  ground  in  relation  to  the  Trans-Alleghany  country,  as  the  low- 
lands were  now  taking  with  the  entire  West. 

Mr.  L.  concluded  by  a  reference  to  the  natural  ardour  of  his  temper,  and  a  profes- 
sion of  his  freedom  from  every  thing  like  personal  resentment  in  matters  of  public 
concern. 

Mr.  Tyler  said,  that  lie  was  in  no  situation  to  address  an  argument  to  the  Com- 
mittee. His  state  of  health  rendered  that  impracticable.  He  had  risen  merely  be- 
cause of  the  frequent  references  made  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  to  himself 
in  common  with  those  who  represented  the  Richmond  district.  The  gentleman  had 
done  him  the  favor  of  submitting  to  his  inspection,  his  scheme  of  Representation  some 
days  before  he  submitted  his  proposition  to  the  House.  When  he  first  saw  it,  the 
gentleman  from  Chesterfield  had  proposed  to  make  the  whole  district  from  the  New 
Kent  line  below,  a  tabula  rasa — to  obliterate  the  county  fines,  and  to  form  one  county 
out  of  James  City,  Williamsburg,  York,  Warwick,  and  Elizabeth  City.  To  this  he 
had  objected,  and  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  had  readily  acquiesced  in  the  ob- 
jection.   Charles  City  and  New  Kent  were  to  have  a  Delegate  each. 

[Mr.  Leigh  said,  that  it  was  on  the  suggestion  of  Mr.  Tyler,  that  New  Kent,  Charles 
City  and  James  City,  were  united  as  an  election  district — and  that  his  plan  had  been 
varied  in  this;  that  he  had  then  intended  to  compose  the  House  of  Delegates  of  one 
hundred  and  twenty-nine  members ;  whereas  the  present  proposition  reduced  that 
number  to  one  hundred  and  twenty-six.] 

Mr.  Tyler  resumed,  that  he  did  make  the  suggestion  mentioned  by  the  gentleman, 
and  he  was  ready  to  avow  his  reasons  for  it  every  where.  The  county  of  Charles 
City  was  the  county  of  his  birth  and  residence ;  but  yet  he  could  not  consent  to  take 
for  it  a  Delegate,  while  one  was  denied  to  Elizabeth  City,  which  in  his  view,  presented 
much  stronger  claims  to  a  separate  representation.  The  population  of  Elizabeth  City 
was  greater  than  that  of  Charles  City,  and  she  had  also  a  separate  and  distinct  inter- 
est to  uphold — the  pilot  interest — one  of  great  importance,  and  which  he  felt  himself 
incapable  of  properly  representing.  In  truth,  the  General  Assembly  had  uniformly 
delivered  a  carte  blanche  into  the  hands  of  her  Delegates  on  that  subject. 

He  would  frankly  say,  that  he  approved  of  a  plan  of  county  Representation  through- 
out the  State,  based  upon  the  principles  which  had  entered  into  the  plan  of  his  friend 
from  Northampton.  He  had  in  fact  come  to  the  House  this  morning  with  such  a  plan; 
but  that  his  colleagues  had  advised  him  not  to  present  it,  and  he  had  for  the  present, 
abandoned  the  idea  of  doing  so.  He  was  very  unwilling  to  disfranchise  any  one  of 
the  counties  of  his  district — but  he  had  shaken  off"  the  influences  of  local  attachment, 
and  was  resolved  to  sacrifice  much  upon  the  altar  of  harmony  and  conciliation.  Parga, 
then,  said  he,  must  be  surrendered  to  the  Albanians.  Be  it  so.  Sir,  if  the  surrender 
can  operate  as  a  cement  to  our  union  in  sentiment.  He  came  here  prepared  to  bind 
up  in  one  common  bond  all  the  people  of  Virginia — to  preserve  the  integrity  of  the 
State — and  he  should  rejoice  if  the  plan  of  gentlemen  succeeded,  although  it  visited 
the  counties  of  his  district  with  extensive  disfranchisement.  His  district  paid  an 
amount  of  revenue,  equal  within  a  very  small  fraction,  to  the  amount  paid  by  all  the 
Trans-Alleghany  country.  The  county  of  his  birth  and  residence,  at  the  hands  of 
whose  inhabitants  he  had  never  received  any  thing  but  acts  of  unmeasured  kindness 
and  confidence,  was  to  part  with  its  political  power;  but  all  this,  nay  more,  he  would 


DEBATES  OF 


THE 


CONVENTION. 


549 


part  with  sooner  than  be  instrumental  in  destroying  those  sentiments  of  brotherly 
feeling  which  had  heretofore  bound  the  State  together.  He  was  Virginian  throughout. 
He  acknowledcred  no  discrimination^between  those  of  the  ntw  blood  or  the  old  blood. 
In  all  his  public  course  he  had  acted  in  reference  to  all  Virginia,,  and  he  should  con- 
tinue to  do  so — but  he  would  ask  if  he  could  make  the  sacrifices  he  had  indicated, 
what  could  prevent  others  from  harmonising  ? 

Before  he  took  his  seat,  he  would  say  that  he  knew  of  no  yery  sound  objection  to 
preserving,  if  practicable,  the  count}'-  system.  It  had  worked  well  in  his  own  opinion. 
Was  there  any  cancer  which  required  to  be  cut  out.'  Warwick  had  been  the  theme  of 
much  rhetorical  display,  and  if  disfranchised,  we  should  destroy  the  most  fruitful 
source  of  popular  eloquence;  but  he  submitted  it  in  all  candour  to  gentlemen  to  say, 
what  evils  Warwick  had  ever  done  .'  From  the  dawn  of  the  revolution  she  had  always 
been  the  fond  advocate  of  free  principles,  and  had  contributed  by  her  voice  and  from 
her  purse  to  maintain  the  cause  of  liberty.  True  ;  she  occupied  a  small  space  upon 
the  map,  but  surely  no  one  would  base  representation  upon  a  territ(jrial  principle, 
without  reference  to  other  considerations — she  contained  six  hundred  and  eighty 
white  persons,  and  yet  paid  nearl}-  one  third  the  tax  paid  by  fourteen  thousand  in  the 
populous  county  of  Monongalia.  Pie  meant  no  invidious  discriminations,  but  merely 
to  do  justice  to  those  who  had  sent  him  there. 

He  concluded  by  expressing  the  sincere  v^-ish  that  the  proposition  then  before  the 
House  would  prove  to  be  the  harbinger  of  an  harmonious  result. 

Mr.  Cooke  said,  that  since  the  various  propositions  for  a  compromise-basis  of  Re- 
presentation had  been  submitted  to  the  House,  he  had,  with  a  view  to  act  advisedly 
on  the  subject,  carefully  examined  and  compared  them  all,  both  as  to  their  principles 
and  their  results.  Mj-  purpose,  at  present,  said  he,  is  to  lay  some  of  these  results  be- 
fore the  Committee,  and  to  make  a  few  brief  remarks  on  the  principles  involved  in 
three  of  the  plans  at  present  under  consideration.  I  allude  to  those  offered  by  the 
members  from  the  Middle  and  VVestern  districts,  by  the  member  from  ^Northampton, 
and  by  the  member  from  Chesterfield.  In  the  comparison  of  their  plans,  the  first  dif- 
ficulty which  I  encountered,  arose  out  of  the  circmnstance  that,  in  tbe  number  of  the 
Legislative  bodies,  each  one  varies  from  the  rest :  The  plan  of  the  members  from  the 
Middle  and  Western  districts,  contemplating  a  House  of  Delegates  of  one  hundred 
and  twenty,  and  a  Senate  of  thirty-six:  That  of  the  member  from  Northampton,  a 
House  of  Delegates  of  one  hundred  and  twenty,  and  a  Senate  of  thirty  :  That  of  the 
member  from  Chesterfield,  a  House  of  Delegates  of  one  hundred  and  twenty-six,  with- 
out specifying  at  all  the  number  of  the  Senatorial  body.  With  a  view  to  institute  a 
fair  comparison  between  thern,  as  to  practical  resiilts,  I  reduced  them  all  to  the  com- 
mon standard  of  one  hundred  and  twenty  members  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  and 
thirty-six  in  the  Senate.  I  then  applied  the  pri?iciple  of  opportionraent  peculiar  to  each 
plan,  to  a  House  of  Delegates  and  a  Senate  containing  the  numbers  just  mentioned, 
and  found  that  they  distributed  political  power  to  tiie  people  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge, 
and  to  those  West  of  it,  in  the  following  proportions  : 

The  plans  of  the  members  fi-om  the  Middle  and  Western  district,  gives,  in  the 

House  of  Delegates. 

Members. 

To  tbe  West,  -  -  -  -  -  56 

To  the  East,  -  -  -  -  -  64 

^Majority  for  the  East,        -  -  -  -  8 

The  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  gives,  in  the 

House  of  Delegates. 
To  the  West,  -  -  -  -  -  48 

To  the  East,  -  -  -  -  -  72 

Majority  for  the  East,        -  -  -  -  24 

The  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  gives,  in  the 
House  of  Delegates. 
To  the  West,  -  -  -  "  -  -  48 

To  the  East,  -  -  -  -  -  72 

Majority  of  the  East,         -  -  -  -  24 

The  plan  of  the  members  from  the  Middle  and  Western  districts,  in  the 

Sex  ATE  OF  THIRTY- SIX. 

To  the  West,  -  -  -  -  -  13 

To  the  East,  ■  -  -  -  -  -  23 


Majority  for  the  East, 


10 


550 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


The  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  gives,  in  a 

Senate  of  thirty-six.  Members. 

To  the  West,               ....  14.4  or  14 

To  the  East,                 -             -             -             -  21 .6  or  22 

Majority  for  the  East,        -              -             -  -  8 
The  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  gives,  in  a 
Senate  of  thirty-six. 

To  the  West,               .             .             .             .  15.G  or  16 

To  the  East,                -             -             -             -  20.4  or  20 

Majority  for  the  East,        -  -  -  -  4 

Having  presented  these  practical  results,  I  proceed  to  make  a  few  remarks,  and  they 
ehall  be  very  brief,  on  the  principle  of  apportiorwient  on  which  these  plans  are  formed, 
or  by  which  they  are  hereafter  to  be  modified.  That  proposed  by  the  Middle  and  West- 
ern districts,  requires  little  or  no  explanation.  It  was  first  proposed,  in  effect,  by  the 
worthy  member  from  Goochland,  (Gov.  Pleasants,)  on  the  1st  ultimo,  and  has  been 
ever  since  under  the  view  of  the  Committee.  It  proposes  Federal  numbers  as  the 
basis  of  Representation  in  the  Senate,  and  white  population  as  the  basis  in  the  House 
of  Delegates.  It  is  almost  superfluous  to  remark,  that  the  basis  of  white  population 
in  the  Senate,  long  and  strenuously  contended  for  by  the  members  from  the  Middle 
and  Western  districts,  has  been  abandoned,  on  the  principle  of  compromise.  They 
have  also  abandoned,  on  the  same  principle,  their  favorite  number  of  twenty-four  for 
the  Senate,  and  have  proposed  that  it  shall  consist  of  thirty-six.  They  have  added  to 
their  plan  a  decennial  assessment  of  all  the  lands  in  the  Commonwealth  subject  to  taxa- 
tion, as  a  fit  accompaniment  for  the  decennial  apportionment  of  Representation,  which 
they  consider  an  essential  feature  in  any  jtist  plan  for  the  distribution  of  political  power, 
in  a  country  whose  population  is  increasing,  in  the  different  sections,  in  such  unequal 
a-atios. 

In  considering  the  principle  of  apportionment  embraced  in  the  plan  of  the  gentle- 
man from  Northampton,  the  first  remark  to  be  made  is,  that  it  operates  only  infuturo, 
and  is  not  adhered  to  at  all  in  the  actual  distribution  of  power  made  in  presenti.  His 
•■act2ial  distribution  is  an  arbitrary  one,  and  more  favourable  to  the  West  than  that  of 
the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield.  His  principle  of  future  apportionment,  is  on  the 
■contrary,  less  favourable  than  that  on  which  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  in  com- 
mon with  the  Chief  Justice  of  the  United  States,  has  founded  his  actual  apportion- 
ment. I  understood  the  gentleman  from  Northampton  to  contend,  that  his  principle 
was  more  favourable  to  the  West,  than  that  of  his  friend  from  Chesterfield,  and  that 
it  derived  this  advantage  from  the  circumstance  of  his  having  introduced  a  third  ele- 
ment into  its  constitution;  from  the  circumstance  of  his  proposing  "  a  fair  average 
of  the  three  ratios,  viz  :  1st,  of  vv'hite  population  ;  2d,  of  white  population  and  taxa- 
tion combined;  and  3d,  of  Federal  numbers;"  while  that  of  the  gentleman  from 
Chesterfield  proposes  the  average  of  two  ratios  only,  that  of  white  population,  and 
that  of  white  population  and  taxation  combined.  In  other  words,  he  contends,  that 
the  introduction  of  the  third  element,  of  Federal  numbers,  renders  his  average  more 
favourable  to  the  West,  than  the  average  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield. 

But,  in  this  he  is  clearly  mistaken.  A  comparison  of  the  two  principles,  through 
the  medium  of  their  results,  will  shew  that  his  is  less  favourable  to  the  West,  than  that 
of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield. 

Take,  for  example,  the  calculation  made  by  the  Chief  Justice,  (and  printed  for  the 
use  of  the  Committee,)  of  the  results  of  his  principle,  which  is  the  same  with  that 
of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  when  applied  to  a  House  of  one  hundred  and 
twenty-six  members.  He  tells  you,  and  correctly,  I  doubt  not,  that  in  such  a  House 
the  West  would  be  entitled. 

On  the  basis  of  white  population,  to  members        .  .  -  -  53 

On  the  basis  of  Federal  numbers,  to  .....  40 

On  the  average  of  the  two,  to         -----  -  46^ 

Now,  it  is  conceded  on  all  hands,  that  the  basis  of  Federal  numbers,  and  the  basis 
of  white  population  and  taxation  combined,  are  practically,  and  in  results,  the  same — 
in  other  words,  that  either  basis  would  give  to  the  West  forty-six  members,  and  no 
more,  i  of  one  hundred  and  twenty-six.  Taking  this  as  true,  let  us  see  how  the 
threefold  average  of  the  gentleman  from  Northampton  will  operate  on  the  people  of 
the  West.    They  will  be  entitled. 

On  the  basis  of  white  population,  to  ...  -  -  53 

On  the  basis  of  Federal  numbers,  to  -  -  "  .        '  " 

On  the  basis  of  white  population  and  taxation  combined,  again  to  -  40 

Total,  -  -  -  -  -  133 

Divide  by  three,  to  attain  the    fair  average  of  the  three  ratios,"  as  proposed 

by  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  and  you  have      -         -         -  44^ 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


651 


Thus,  his  three-fold  average  gives  to  the  people  of  the  West  two  and  one-sixth  mem- 
bers less  than  the  two-fold  ratio  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield.  And  thus  for  the 
plainest  reason  in  the  world,  he  introduces  tico  elements  into  his  average,  unfavour- 
able to  the  Western  people,  viz  :  Federal  numbers,  and  taxation  and  population  com- 
bined ;  whereas,  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  introduces  only  one  unfavourable 
element — the  favourable  element  of  white  population  being  common  to  both.  His 
principle,  then,  of  future  apportionment,  is  worse  than  the  principle  of  actual  appor- 
tionment resorted  to  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  as  it  regards  the  interests  of 
the  Western  people.  His  actual  distribution,  in  ^^rcscnti,  is,  in  regard  to  the  Senate, 
more-  favourable  to  the  West,  being,  as  far  as  I  can  perceive,  merely  arbitrary,  and  not 
in  any  manner  conformable  to  his  principle  of  future  apportionment. 

A  word  or  two  with  regard  to  his  plan  for  re-apportioning  political  power,  at  some 
future  period.  Is  it  not  a  strong  objection  to  that  plan,  iu  the  eyes  of  the  W^estern 
people,  that  its  execution  is  left  at  tiie  absolute  discretion  of  an  Eastern  majority  in 
both  of  the  Legislative  bodies?    Let  us  examine  his  third  resolution. 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Legislature  shall  have  poicer  to  re-arrange  the  representation 
in  both  Houses  of  the  General  Assembly,  once  in  every  j-ears,  upon  a  fair 

average  of  the  following  ratios,  viz  :  1st,  of  white  population;  2d,  of  white  T>opula- 
tion  and  taxation  combined;  3d,  of  Federal  numbers." 

Does  he  suppose,  that  the  people  of  the  West  will  regard,  with  a  favourable  eye, 
a  plan  for  a  re-apportionment  of  representation — for  an  adaptation  of  the  members  of 
the  two  Houses  to  their  comparatively  fast  increasing  population — which  may  or  may 
not  be  carried  into  execution  at  the  will  and  pleasure  of  an  Eastern  majority  in  both 
of  the  Legislative  Houses.?  Does  he  not  perceive,  that  if  his  plan  were  carried  into 
full  effect  at  present,  and  if  it  should  be  found  some  five  or  ten  years  hence,  that  from 
the  comparatively  rapid  increase  of  Western  population,  the  two  divisions  of  the 
State  are  very  unequally  represented,  the  Western  people  will  call  loudly  for  a  re- 
apportionment And  if  the  people  of  the  East,  acting  on  the  principle  which  he  and 
his  friends  insist  is  the  great  master-spring  of  human  actions — I  mean  on  the  princi- 
ple of  selfishness — should  refuse  to  re-apportion  representation,  would  not  the  same 
divisions — the  same  sectional  animosities — the  same  discord  and  confusion,  be  re- 
'produced,  which  we  are  seeking  to  heal,  and  to  prevent  in  all  time  to  come.?  In  a 
word,  are  not  the  seeds  of  new  discord,  of  new  dissentions,  sowed  in  the  very  act  by 
which  existing  dissentions  are  sought  to  be  removed  ?  Believing,  as  I  do,  that  he 
fairly  and  honestly  seeks  to  provide,  not  only  for  present  exigencies,  but  for  future 
tranquillity,  I  recommend  these  questions  to  his  grave  and  considerate  reflection. 

In  commenting  on  the  objections  to  his  plan  for  the  future  apportionment  of  repre- 
sentation, I  have  anticipated  some  of  those,  v.'hich  apply  with  equal  force  to  that  of 
the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield.  The  prospective  augmentation  of  the  power  of  the 
West  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  is  made  in  his  plan  too,  to  depend  on  the  will  and 
pleasure  of  an  overwhelming  Eastern  majority  in  both  of  the  Legislative  bodies. 
He  gives  power  to  the  Legislature  to  create  eight  Western  counties,  and  to  confer  one 
Representative  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  on  each  of  these  new  counties.  But  does 
he  forget  how  often  he  has  told  us,  and  with  what  emphatic  earnestness,  that  he  will 
put  his  rights  in  the  power  of  no  man,  unless  it  be  clearly  the  interest  of  that  man  to 
exercise  that  power  to  his  advantage — or  at  least  with  fairness  ?  And  does  he  not 
perceive,  that  it  will  be  the  interest  of  the  Eastern  people,  or  that,  on  his  own  prin- 
ciple, of  the  selfishness  of  man,  they  will  think  it  their  interest,  to  refuse  to  create 
these  Western  counties,  and  thus  give  additional  power  to  the  rival  section  of  the 
Commonwealth.''  May  we  not,  on  his  own  principles,  entertain  a  well-grounded  ap- 
prehension, that  the  people  of  the  East  will  so  refuse  ?  And  if  they  do,  will  not  the 
clamours  of  the  West  be  as  loud  as  ever Will  they  not  again  call  for  a  Convention 
to  redress  their  grievances  ?  Is  it  not  better,  I  ask  him  in  sober  seriousness,  to  make 
his  proposed  re-apportionment  imperative  on  the  Legislative  bodies,  and  thereby  pre- 
vent, as  far  as  they  can  be  prevented,  all  future  trouble  and  dissention  ?  And  I  would 
further  ask  him,  if  it  would  not  be  more  just,  and  more  satisfactory  to  the  Western 
people,  to  apply  to  future  apportionments  the  same  principle  of  the  two-fold  average, 
by  which  he  Jioio  regulates  the  actual  distribution  of  political  power.''  If  that  princi- 
ple be  more  just,  and  fair,  and  honourable,  as  I  doubt  not  he  thinks  it  is,  will  it  not  be 
equally  just,  and  fair,  and  honourable,  in  all  time  to  come?  Is  he  willing,  that  his 
scheme  of  representation  shall  be  considered  a  mere  temporary  expedient  for  the  ad- 
justiuent  of  existing  differences,  while  it  holds  out  the  certain  evidence  of  creating 
future  quarrels,  and  of  embroiling  the  Commonwealth  by  a  new  strug-gle  for  power? 
These  are  grave  and  serious  questions,  and  worthy  of  his  attentive  colisideration. 

But,  is  there  not  another  feature  in  his  scheme  of  future  apportionment,  wliich  will 
seem  odious  to  the  people  of  the  West  ? 

He  gives  poicer  to  the  Legislative  bodies  to  add  ticentyfovr  members  to  the  House 
of  Delegates,  whenever,  and  from  whatever  quarter  of  the  Commonwealth,  it  may  to 
them  seem  fit,  provided  three-fifths  of  each  House  of  the  Legislature  shall  concur  in 


552 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


the  measure.  These  twenty-four  members  may  be  derived  from  the  extreme  JVcst,  or 
from  the  extreme  East,  or  all  from  the  East,  if  it  shall  seem  good  to  three-fifOis  of  the 
Legislative  bodies.  And,  in  this  actual  apportionment  of  the  number  of  Representa- 
tives in  those  bodies,  he  gives  more  than  tlirec-jifths  to  the  country  East  of  the  Ridge. 
He  thus  gives  to  the  Eastern  people  the  -poicer,  at  the  same  time  that  he  holds  out  to 
them  the  strongest  temptation,  to  re-establish  a  greater  inequality  of  representation  in 
the  House  of  Delegates,  than  has  ever  existed  in  the  Commonwealth— a  greater 
inequality  of  representation  than  that  which  has  produced  all  the  dissentions,  all  the 
turmoils,  the  existence  of  which,  at  present,  he  regards  with  so  much  horror. 

In  short,  Sir,  what  would  it  avail,  if  we,  the  Rcqjresentatives  of  the  people,  were  to 
accept  a  compromise  like  this,  which  would  be  rejected  by  the  unanimous  voice  of  all 
the  vVest. 

1  have  thus  stated,  respectfully,  but  frankly,  the  objections  which  seem  to  me  con- 
clusive against  the  adoption  of  either  of  the  proposed  schemes  of  compromise,  in 
their  present  form.  Believing,  as  I  do,  that  they  are  nevertheless  offered  in  the  spirit 
of  conciliation,  I  submit  to  the  gentlemen  who  have  offered  them,  whether  it  would 
not  be  advisable  to  attempt,  at  least,  to  render  them  more  palatable  to  the  great  section 
of  the  Commonwealth  to  which  they  are  offered. 

Mr.  Upshur  rose  in  reply  to  Mr.  Cooke  : 

Mr.  Cnairman, — i  have  iieard  the  remarks  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick  (Mr. 
Cooke)  wiih  peculiar  pleasure.  I  perfectly  understand,  and  I  am  fully  able  to  appre- 
ciate, the  conciliatory  temper  in  which  they  were  offered.  If  there  be  no  other  ob- 
jections to  my  scheme,  than  those  which  he  has  urged,  1  can  remove  them  all  so 
easily,  that  1  am  not  without  hope  of  ultimately  receiving  his  support.  One  con- 
sideration there  is,  which  would  weaken  this  hope,  if  I  did  not  know  the  gentleman 
fnnn  Frederick  to  be  superior  to  all  views  of  a  personal  kind,  when  opposed  to  his 
sense  of  public  duty,  and  to  the  obvious  interests  of  the  Commonwealth.  The  gen- 
tleman has  himself  offered  a  plan  of  compromise,  which  has  not  yet  been  called  up 
for  consideration,  and  which  he  doubtless  believes  to  be  preferable  to  that  now  before 
us.  He  proposes  to  organize  the  House  of  Delegates  upon  the  basis  of  white  popula- 
tion, and  the  Senate  upju  that  of  Federal  numbers;  increasing  the  Senate  to  thirty- 
six,  but  conferring  on  it  no  additional  Legislative  powers,  and  preserving  its  present 
organization  in  all  other  respects.  Before  I  proceed  to  remove  the  objections  which 
have  been  urged  against  the  measure  now  under  consideration,  permit  me  to  remark, 
that  the  scheme  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  as  a  substitute  for  it,  is 
in  fact,  no  compromise  at  all.  The  term  compromise,  necessarily  implies  a  surrender 
of  something  which  the  party  has  power  to  retain,  in  consideration  of  something  to 
be  surrendered  to  it  in  return.  Now,  no  fact  can  be  better  estabhshed  than  this,  that 
froiri  the  coai.nencement  of  our  Session  to  this  hour,  the  advocates  of  the  basis  of 
white  population,  have  not  been  able  to  carry  that  principle  for  the  Senate.  They 
have  at  all  times  been  able  to  carry  their  principle  for  the  House  of  Delegates,  and 
we,  to  carry  ours  for  the  Senate.  What  then  do  they  offer  us  under  the  name  of  com- 
promise Nothing  more  than  this,  Sir,  that  they  will  consent  that  we  shall  retain 
what  we  already  possess,  and  what  thej'  have  not,  and  never  have  had,  power  to  take 
away  from  us.  1  will  not  enquire  whether  the  terms  thus  offered,  are  fair,  just  and 
equal,  or  not;  I  will  not  debate  the  terms  of  a  compromise,  where  no  compromise  is 
offered.  It  would,  indeed,  better  deserve  that  name,  if  gentlemen  would  surrender 
the  Senate  to  us  to  be  organized  in  all  respects,  upon  our  own  principles,  in  considera- 
tion of  a  similar  surrender  on  our  part,  of  the  House  of  Delegates  to  them.  Even 
this  would  not  be  perfectly  equal,  but  we  should  not  hesitate  to  meet  them  on  that 
ground.  This,  however,  they  will  not  consent  to,  nor  do  they  propose  to  yield  any 
thing  whatever,  except  precisely  that  which  v/e  already  possess,  and  that  which  their 
consent  will  not  give  us  either  in  greater  degree,  or  in  greater  security.  I  entreat 
gentlemen  to  reflect  on  this.  We  have  undoubted  proof  that  in  many  parts  of  the 
Commonwealth,  the  people  have  taken  this  subject  into  their  own  hands.  We  are 
but  their  agents,  their  servants,  bound  to  obey  their  will.  It  is  known  that  the  changes 
which  have  already  taken  place,  have  all  been  in  favor  of  Eastern  principles,  and 
such,  it  is  but  reasonable  to  suppose,  will  all  future  changes  be.  Suppose,  Sir,  that 
the  sceptre  should  pass  over  to  us ;  suppose  that  we  should  have,  as  we  probably  shall 
have,  power  to  carry  our  principle  not  for  the  Senate  only,  but  for  both  Houses  of  the 
General  Assembly.  Can  gentlemen  imagine  that  we  shall  be  restrained  from  doing 
so,  by  the  acceptance  of  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick  ?  Can  we 
feel  under  any  obligation  to  refrain  from  the  exercise  of  our  power  to  its  full  extent, 
merely  because  gentlemen  who  could  not  restrain  us,  have  consented  that  v/e  should 
exercise  that  power  in  less  degree.?  What  equivalent  can  be  demanded,  where 
nothing  is  tendered.?  How  can  gentlemen  expect  forbearance  from  us,  after  having 
rejected  all  terms  of  compromise  tendered  by  us,  without  having  offered  on  their  part, 
any  other  terms  which  we  can  regard  as  compromise  at  all .?  It  is  impossible,  Sir,  and 
I  entreat  gentlemen  to  be  assured,  that  it  is  impossible.    If,  however,  gentlemen  shall 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


553 


meet  us  on  the  terms,  offered  by  ourselves ;  terms  which  demand  no  sacrifice  of  prin- 
ciple, and  which  are  no  otherwise  unequal,  than  as  they  operate  more  for  their  ad- 
vantage than  for  ours;  then,  Sir,  whatever  may  be  the  future  condition  of  parties,  we 
shall  feel  under  an  absolute  obligation  to  adhere  to  our  agreement.  This  will  certainly 
be  my  own  feeling,  and  I  think  I  may  safely  affirm  that  it  will  be  the  feeling  of  all 
those  who  act  with  me.  This  view  of  the  subject  certainly  demands  the  grave  con- 
sideration of  all  those,  who  are  seeking  in  good  faith  an  amicable  arrangement  of  our 
present  diff'erences. 

The  gentleman  from  Frederick  has  endeavored  to  shew,  that  the  average  of  three 
ratios,  is  less  favorable  to  the  West,  than  the  average  of  two.  So  far  as  the  present 
time  is  concerned,  he  is  undoubtedly  correct,  and  the  difference  is  precisely  what  he 
states  it  to  be.  i  distinctly  admitted  this  in  the  exposition  which  I  gave  of  this 
measure,  when  it  was  first  called  up  for  consideration.  Two  of  the  ratios,  in  the 
jiresent  conditiun  of  the  country,  are  favorable  to  the  East,  and  of  course,  the  combi- 
nation of  those  two,  with  another  less  favorable  to  them,  must  produce  a  present  re- 
sult correspondently  favorable.  But  it  is  for  gentlemen  to  choose  between  the  pre- 
sent hour,  and  all  future  time.  One  thing  is  certain.  If  the  West  be,  as  it  is  ad- 
mitted to  be,  acquiring  more  rapidly  than  the  East,  all  the  elements  of  pohtical  power, 
precisely  in  proportion  as  you  multiply  those  elements,  will  you  accelerate  their  pro- 
gress and  hasten  the  period  at  which  their  power  will  preponderate.  Tliis,  however, 
is  a  topic  which  I  have  no  disposition  to  press.  If  the  arguments  which  I  have  al- 
ready offered,  have  failed  to  convince,  I  have  nothing  now  to  add  to  them.  I  repeat, 
that  I  will  not  be  instrumental  in  forcing  a  benefit  upon  reluctant  minds.  Gentle- 
men are  at  perfect  liberty  to  carve  for  themselves.  My  three  ratios  are  before  them, 
and  I  do  in  my  conscience  believe  that  it  is  the  peculiar  interest  of  the  West,  to  re- 
tain every  one  of  them.  But  if  those  for  whose  benefit  alone  this  combination  was 
designed,  are  dissatisfied  with  it,  I  will  unite  with  tliem  in  erasing  from  the  ratios, 
any  one  which  may  be  most  obno.xious  to  them. 

The  gentleman  from  Frederick  is  undoubtedly  mistaken  in  supposing,  tliat  the 
scheme  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  (Mr.  Leigh)  is  more  favorable  to  the 
West  than  my  own.  The  difference  between  them,  resulting  from  the  operation  of 
three  ratios  instead  of  two,  upon  future  apportionm.ents  of  Representation.  I  have  al- 
ready explained.  There  is  an  equall}^  obvious  difference,  if  we  consider  the  two 
s-chemes  only  with  reference  to  the  distribution  of  power  at  the  present  time.  It  is 
true  that  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  the  scheme  of  the  gentleman  from  Cheste^eld 
gives  to  the  West,  two  members  and  a  fraction  more  than  my  own  5  that  is,  there  is 
a  difference  of  about  one  sixtieth  part  of  that  House,  in  favor  of  tlie  scheme  of  the 
gentleman  from  Chesterfield.  But  his  principle,  applied  to  the  Senate,  gives  to  the 
West  four  members  less  than  mine  :  that  is,  nearly  one  eighth  of  that  House  in 
favor  of  my  scheme.  The  gentleman  from  Frederick  would  not  have  failed  to 
discover  this,  had  he  apphed  the  principle  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  to 
the  Senate.  He  is  equally  mistaken  in  supposing  that  my  arrangement  of  the  Senate 
is  merely  arbitrary,  and  not  according  to  my  own  principle.  It  is  true  that  the  re- 
sults do  not  precisely  illustrate  the  principle,  but  the  reason  of  tliis  was  fully  explained 
by  me,  in  the  opening  of  this  subject  a  da\''  or  two  ago.  In  carrying  out  my  calcu- 
lations, I  found  a  fraction  of  half  a  member  in  each  of  the  four  great  districts,  and  in 
every  instance,  not  in  the  Senate  only,  but  in  the  House  of  Delegates  also,  the  frac- 
tions were  taken  from  the  East  and  given  to  the  West.  Hence  it  is,  that  thirteen 
Senators  are  assigned  to  the  two  districts  West  of  the  Ridge,  instead  of  twelve,  which 
is  their  just  number.  This  arrangement,  sugcrested  by  a  desire  to  reconcile  the  West 
to  this  reasonable  plan  of  compromise,  and  prompted  by  the  most  friendly  feeling  to- 
wards that  country,  presents  the  onlj'  instance,  or  the  only  reason  for  a  departure 
from  my  strict  principle  in  its  application  to  practice. 

I  have  but  one  other  remark  to  make  upon  this  branch  of  the  subject.  It  has  ap- 
peared to  some  gentlemen,  too  plain  for  argument, — manifest  upon  the  very  face  of 
my  proposition,  that  it  must  be  less  favorable  to  them  than  that  of  the  gentleman  from 
Chesterfield,  since  I  have  taken  tico  ratios  favorable  to  the  East,  and  he  only  one. 
Gentlemen  fall  into  this  mistake,  by  forgetting  the  precise  character  of  the  object  we 
are  pursuing.  We  are  engaged  in  an  arithmetical  process,  by  which  we  propose  to 
arrive  at  an  average  of  certain  given  quantities.  In  proportion,  therefore,  as  you  mul- 
tiply those  quantities,  you  necessarily  increase  your  divisor .  hxxi  you  do  not  necessarily 
change  your  quotient.  Let  me  illustrate  by  an  example.  Suppose  that  each  of  the 
three  ratios  before  us  is  equal  to  three  ;  then,  to  obtain  the  average  of  two  of  them,  you 
divide  their  sum,  which  is  six,  by  two,  and  your  quotient  is  three.  To  obtain  the 
average  of  all  of  them,  you  divide  their  sum,  which  is  nine,  by  three,  and  your  quo- 
tient here  also,  is  three.  Thus  if  the  ratios  before  us  were  all  precisely  equal,  it  is 
evident  that  the  result,  with  reference  to  the  present  distribution  of  power,  would  be 
precisely  the  same,  whether  the  average  were  taken  of  two,  or  of  three  of  those  ra- 
tios.   In  point  of  fact,  however,  they  are  not  equal.    Population  and  taxation  com- 

70 


554 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION, 


bined,  give  very  nearly  the  same  result  with  Federal  numbers,  and  these  two  may 
therefore  be  assumed  as  equal.  But,  white  population  is  much  more  favorable  to  the 
West  tlian  either  of  the  other  ratios  j  and  the  dilFerence  in  the  averages,  is  precisely 
the  loss  sustained  in  this  largest  ratio,  by  taking  three  as  the  divisor  instead  of  two. 
The  mode  of  operation  and  tiie  reason  of  the  result,  must  be  manifest  to  every  arith- 
metician. 

The  gentleman  from  Frederick  urges  a  still  farther  objection  to  my  scheme,  founded 
on  the  fact  that  it  leaves  it  to  the  discretion  of  the  Legislature,  whether  to  re-arrange 
the  Representation  at  any  future  time,  or  not;  and  he  argues,  that  as  the  majority  irs 
the  Legislature  must  be  with  the  East,  according  to  any  plan  of  present  apportion- 
ment, it  will  be  in  the  power  of  that  majority,  by  refusing  to  re-apportion,  to  with- 
hold forever  from  the  "West,  all  benefit  of  the  rule.  It  did  not  enter  into  my  contem- 
plation, Sir,  that  any  future  Legislature  of  Virginia  could  so  far  misunderstand  the 
obvious  meaning  of  the  expression,  as  to  be  guilty  of  such  gross  injustice.  In  adopt- 
ing the  particular  pliraseology  before  you,  1  had  no  object  in  view  but  this.  It  oc- 
curred to  me  as  probable,  nay,  almost  certain, — that  it  would  be  found,  at  some  future 
period  designated  for  re-apportionment  of  Representation, — that  no  change  had  oc- 
curred in  the  relative  condition  of  the  several  parts  of  the  Commonwealth,  to  render 
such  re-apportionment  necessary.  In  this  view  of  the  subject  and  not  doubting  that 
the  Legislature  would  be  disposed  at  all  times,  and  in  good  faith,  to  carry  the  Consti- 
tution into  effect,  according  to  its  true  intent  and  meaning,  I  saw  some  convenience 
and  no  danger,  in  trusting  the  subject  to  Legislative  discretion.  I  have  no  difhculty, 
however,  in  conforming  to  the  wishes  of  other  gentlemen  in  this  respect.  I  will 
therefore,  Sir,  with  the  leave  of  the  Committee,  strike  out  the  words,  "  have  power 
to,"  so  as  to  leave  it  mandatory  upon  the  Legislature  to  re-apportion  the  Representa- 
tion at  stated  periods. 

I  have  thus  endeavored,  Sir,  by  a  candid  exposition  of  my  plan,  to  obviate  all  the 
objections  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick.  It  would  rejoice  me  to  believe,  that  he 
is  reconciled,  if  not  convinced,  and  that  we  may  yet  hope  for  his  co-operation  in  set- 
tling, upon  the  simple  plan  before  you,  this  distressing  and  oppressive  contest.  It 
cannot  be  doubted,  that  the  compromise  I  have  offered  is  in  substance  and  in  truth,  a 
compromise  of  principle,  and  being  so,  we  must  submit  to  the  consequences,  let  them 
fall  as  they  may.  If,  in  the  application  of  a  just  principle,  an  inequality  of  political 
power  shall  be  the  result,  it  will  only  prove  that  the  party  which  enjoys  the  supe- 
riority, ought  to  enjoy  it,  and  the  opposing  party,  cannot,  of  course,  have  any  good 
reason  to  complain.  In  point  of  fact,  however,  the  practical  majority  of  the  East 
will  be  very  small.  The  line  of  separation  between  parties,  is  not  a  geographical,  but 
a  political  line.  Many  counties  lying  immediately  under  the  Eastern  side  of  the 
Blue  Ridge,  are  essentially  Western  in  their  interests,  and  consequently,  in  their  po- 
litical views.  These,  therefore,  must  be  counted  to  the  West,  as  to  all  practical  pur- 
poses, and  thus  it  is,  that  the  apparent  superiority  of  the  East  dwindles  into  nothing, 
and  cannot  be  seriously  felt  in  the  operations  of  Government. 

But,  Sir,  all  enquiries  of  this  sort,  are  unworthy  of  the  occasion.  I  again  entreat 
gentlemen  not  to  confine  their  views  to  present  results.  Let  us  venture  to  hope  that 
we  are  laboring  for  distant  times,  and  let  us  endeavor  to  accommodate  our  systems  to 
all  the  probable  changes  which  those  times  will  produce.  I  cannot  sufficiently  com- 
mend the  spirit  which  characterized  the  remarks  of  my  honorable  friend  from  Charles 
City,  (Mr.  Tyler.)  Like  him,  I  am  laboring  for  all  Virginia,  and  dear  to  me  as  is  the 
hope  that  my  own  native  county  may  have  her  separate  Representation  under  the 
new  Constitution,  I  will  not  permit  that,  nor  any  other  consideration  merely  local 
or  temporary,  to  oppose  any  obstacle  to  a  just,  fair,  and  wise  arrangement  of  this  per- 
plexing subject. 

Mr.  Doddridge  addressed  the  Committee  as  follows  : 

Mr.  Chairman, — I  certainly  did  not  expect  to  say  one  word  more  on  the  basis  of 
Representation.  I  had  supposed  until  yesterday,  that  every  member  considered  the 
argument  as  at  an  end,  and  all  that  remained  was  to  give  our  votes  finally.  After  a 
session  of  nine  weeks,  we  ought,  if  ever,  to  have  made  up  our  minds,  so  far  as  to  pre- 
clude all  hope  of  altering  them  by  farther  discussion. 

I  will  ask  indulgence  a  few  minutes.  The  gentleman  from  Northampton  says,  the 
white  basis  in  the  House  of  Delegates  is  in  the  power  of  the  West,  and  the  Federal 
basis  in  the  Senate  in  the  power  of  the  East.  This,  he  says,  has  been  the  case  for  a 
long  time.  He  therefore  concludes,  that  acceding  to  these  bases  respectively,  would 
be  no  compromise.  The  gentleman  is  mistaken.  I  had  supposed  every  member 
knew,  that  although  forty-nine  members  voted  for  our  basis  in  the  Lower  House,  yet 
several  of  them  only  did  so  with  a  view  to  the  Senate.  They  are  not  committed — 
you  all  know  they  are  not. 

If  they  were  committed,  what  would  be  the  situation  of  parties  in  the  Convention? 
We  have  a  majority  as  to  one  Plouse,  and  you  as  to  the  other.  We  cannot  adopt  an 
amendment  on  our  principles  without  your  consent,  nor  can  you  on  your  principles 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


655 


without  ours.  Neither  of  us  can  stir  without  the  other ;  we  cannot  move  one  step 
without  compromise.  Tiiis  view  of  our  situation  has  induced  me,  (I  only  speak  for  my- 
self,) to  accede  to  the  Federal  number  in  the  Senate,  on  securing  the  white  basis  in  the 
Lower  House.  When  I  agree,  even  to  this,  I  do  not  certainly  know  that  my  constit- 
uents would  accept  a  Constitution  founded  on  that  agreement.  But  I  do  know,  they 
never  will  accept  one  in  the  least  degree  acknowledging  a  mixed  basis  in  the  House 
of  Delegates.    It  would  be  idle  to  offer  one  to  them.    They  must  and  would  reject  it. 

We  are  warned  of  the  awful  consequences  of  parting,  without  coming  to  some  agree- 
ment. This  warning  voice  sounds  both  ways.  The  argument  is  a  two-edged  sword ; 
it  cuts  both  ways,  and  it  behooves  us  to  reflect  well  on  whose  shoulders  the  responsi- 
bility will  rest.  It  will  not  be  taken  amiss  if  I  should  say,  that  in  every  proposition 
for  accommodating  our  differences,  except  that  submitted  by  the  gentleman  from  Fre- 
derick, there  is  one  district  which  is  to  furnish  the  sacrifice  required  for  peace.  1  need 
not  say,  that  is  the  district  W^est  of  the  Alleghany ;  and  I  will,  therefore,  endeavour 
to  imitate  the  candour  and  decision  of  others. 

The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  in  his  first  argument  on  the  basis,  declared  that 
a  Government  in  this  State,  founded  on  the  right  of  numbers  of  white  population, 
would  be  such  a  cruel,  intolerable,  and  insupportable  tyranny,  as  no  man  ever  did, 
could  or  would  submit  to.  About  seventy  hours  since,  and  again  to-day,  that  gentle- 
man has  repeated  this  declaration.  Sach,  then,  is  the  deliberate  judgment  of  tliat  gen- 
tleman. The  gentleman  from  Charlotte  (Mr.  Randolph,)  with  equal  candour  declared 
yesterday,  that  any  Constitution,  which  would  establish  in  the  House  of  Delegates 
the  basis  of  free  white  numbers,  would  be  a  Jacobinical  Government,  to  which  he  ne- 
ver could  submit.  Those  gentlemen  occupy,  and  deservedly,  a  large  space  in  this 
House,  and  in  public  opinion.  On  this  ground,  the  latter  genllem.an  planted  his  staff, 
and  nailed  his  flag.  As  I  view  things,  gentlemen  have  a  right  to  maintain  as  they 
do,  that  our  doctrines  tend  to  anarchy,  despotism,  or  Jacobinism,  and  to  support  their 
opinions  by  fair  argument;  in  doing  so,  they  give  no  cause  of  personal  offence.  On 
the  other  hand,  I  have  a  right  to  maintain  that  their  doctrines  go  to  build  up  an  oli- 
garchy of  weahh.  Here,  then,  we  stand  on  equal  ground.  In  the  same  spirit  of 
frankness,  that  animates  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte,  I  now  say,  and  for  the  last 
time,  that  yielding  us  the  free  white  basis  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  with  a  new  ap- 
portionment of  Representation  after  the  next  Census,  and  periodical  enumerations  and 
apportionments,  I  will  yield  the  Federal  number  in  the  Senate.  Further  than  this  I 
will  never  go,  and  here  I  nail  my  flag. 
What  then  is  to  be  done  ^ 

There  are  three  possible  results  to  our  deliberations.  One  of  these  is  certain.  The 
Srst,  and  perhaps  the  most  probable,  is  an  adjournment  vrithout  doing  any  thing.  The 
second,  an  agreement  by  the  West  to  join  the  East,  in  forming  a  Constitution,  which 
the  people  must  reject.  The  third,  and  that  which  I  think  will  happen,  if  the  first 
does  not,  that  the  members  from  the  East  will  act  for  themselves,  and  tender  to  the 
people  what  shall  seem  to  them  most  advisable. 

Of  these  three  results,  the  first  would  tend  to  the  least  present  commotion.  We 
would  return  to  our  subjection  under  the  present  Government.  We  would  labour  for 
a  while  under  the  inequality  of  which  we  complain,  and  which  we  came  here  to  re- 
move. This  inequality  would  be  the  less  odious,  as  the  principles  on  which  it  rests, 
are  not  of  your  own  assumption.  Your  power  came  to  you  by  descent,  and  is  the  re- 
sult of  accidental  and  fortuitous  circumstances,  of  changes,  of  settlement,  population 
and  wealth.  The  second  result,  I  cannot  contemplate  without  dismay.  May  I  ask 
my  Western  brethren,  who  of  them  feels  that  he  has  power  from  his  constituents 
to  adopt  in  both  Houses,  any  mixed  basis  whatever  ?  Do  we  not  all  know  that  such  a 
basis  would  not,  ought  not,  and  could  not  be  accepted  ?  And  surely,  the  rejection  of 
our  work  by  our  own  constituents,  would  leave  the  public  mind  more  exasperated 
than  we  are  now  prepared  to  anticipate.  Should  gentlemen  from  the  East  do  what 
they  have  power  to  do,  the  responsibility  will  be  their  own.  It  is  vain  to  conceal  it; 
they  have  power  to  do  in  this  Convention  what  they  please,  unless  some  of  them 
should  change  their  minds.  Let  them  throw  out  for  consideration,  a  Constitution 
formed  by  themselves — they  will  consecrate  their  own  power,  and  their  unequal  rule 
will  be  the  result  of  their  own  conduct — of  principles  assumed  axid  enforced,  by  them- 
selves, for  which  they  will  be  responsible. 

The  most  favorable  proposition  for  the  West,  is  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Rich- 
mond (Chief  Justice  Marshall.)  The  ratio  of  Representation  proposed  by  him,  is  to 
be  composed  of  all  free  whites,  and  three-tenths  of  all  people  of  colour,  bond  and  free. 
I  request  gentlemen  from  the  West  to  look  at  this.  The  whole  slave  population,  is 
four  hundred  and  forty-eight  thousand  two  hundred  and  ninet3^-four;  of  this,  a  balance 
of  three  hundred  and  forty-six  thousand  eight  hundred  and  seventy-three,  is  owned 
in  the  East.  Add  to  this,  the  balance  of  free  people  of  colour  in  the  East,  which  is 
twenty-two  thousand  eight  hundred  and  eighty-six,  and  they  have  a  balance  of  co- 
loured population,  bond  and  free,  in  the  East,  of  three  hundred  and  seventy-five  thou- 


556 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


sand  seven  hundred  and  fifty-nine;  three-tenths  of  which,  it  is  proposed  to  add  to  the 
Eastern  white  population,  which,  by  adding  to  it  the  present  majority  of  white  inha- 
bitants, of  forty-three  thousand  two  hundred  and  twenty,  will  give  the  East  a  majority 
of  one  hundred  and  fifty-five  thousand  nine  hundred  and  forty-five  j  placing  us  nearly 
back  to  our  condition  in  1790. 

Who  of  us  can  venture  to  propose  such  a  scheme  to  our  constituents? 
In  these  remarks,  I  assume  the  estimate  of  the  Auditor,  as  sufficiently  accurate  for 
the  present  purpose — and  if  not,  whose  fault  is  it,  that  this  Convention  is  not  in  pos- 
session of  an  official  table  of  population  ?  The  fault  is  not  that  of  the  West,  but  of  a 
public  body  not  now  existing,  which  forced  us  here  on  the  Census  of  1810,  and  pur- 
posely kept  from  our  eyes  a  true  return  of  the  present  population. 

Unless  gentlemen  accept  our  peace-oftering — unless  they  will  accept  the  one  basis 
in  the  Senate,  and  yield  our  claim  in  the  other  House,  I  can  see  no  good  as  likely  to 
result  from  our  labours.    We  shall  do  nothing,  but  continue  to  exasperate  each  other. 

Mr.  Randolph  said,  it  was  with  unfeigned  satisfaction,  and  equally  unfeigned  sur- 
prise, he  perceived  that  the  gentleman  who  had  just  taken  his  seat  had  so  far  recon- 
ciled himself  to  the  good  old  Constitution,  with  all  the  burdens  and  privations  it  im- 
posed, and  against  which  he  had  waged  an  unrelenting  war  from  the  first  day  the 
Convention  had  been  sitting  until  now  :  And  he  rose  to  express  his  unfeigned  satisfac- 
tion, and  equal  surprise  that  he,  the  gentleman,  had  made  the  discovery  that  he  could 
live  comfortably  and  happily  under  this  old  Constitution;  all  the  clamour  which  had 
been  raised  against  it  to  the  contrary  notwithstanding. 

A  little  while  ago,  and  the  Constitution,  in  the  eyes  of  that  gentleman,  was  one 
mass  of  political  deformity,  but  now  it  seemed  that  the  gentleman  on  a  nearer  ap- 
proach had  inverted  his  glass,  and  had  discovered  that  its  features,  if  not  perfectly 
beautiful,  were  at  least  such  as  to  constitute  it  a  companion  which  any  man  might 
feel  himself  happy  and  honoured  to  live  with. 

But,  the  main  object  for  which  he  liad  risen,  was  to  assure  the  gentleman  frona 
Brooke,  for  whose  conciliatory  manner,  observed  throughout  the  entire  course  of  this 
debate,  he  offered  him  his  most  sincere  and  respectful  acknowledgments,  that  if  there 
was  one  member  on  that  side  of  the  House,  who,  while  he  protested  against  having  a 
Constitution  forced  down  their  throats  by  a  bare  majority,  would  undertake  to  do  that 
to  others  which  he  would  not  suffer  others  to  do  to  him,  such  a  man  should  never 
have  his  vote  :  so  far  as  depended  upon  him,  no  other  Constitution  than  that  which 
they  had  all  lived  happily  under,  for  so  long  a  course  of  time,  should  be  imposed 
upon  the  gentleman  and  his  constituents. 

He  would  add  one  word,  as  to  the  ultbnatttm  for  which  the  gentleman  eontended, 
viz  :  the  basis  of  white  population  exclusively  in  one  branch  of  the  Legislature  and 
the  Federal  number  in  the  other.  He  declared  with  a  sincerity  which  his  vote  would 
be  found  to  vouch  for,  that  if  the  gentleman  should  succeed  in  iimposing  on  thena 
the  hard  and  stern  condition  of  submitting  to  so  intolerable  a  yoke  in  the  LoweT 
House,  he  would  yield  to  him  the  same  principle  in  the  other,  and  let  both  branches 
be  based  on  the  white  population  alone.  He  should  do  so  by  preference.  He  would 
prefer  having  both  branches  on  the  white  basis,  to  the  Manichoean  plan,  of  a 
good  and  an  evil  principle,  in  which,  as  in  the  Maiiichoean  system,  the  evil  principle 
was  the  stronger,  and  was  always  in  the  end  sure  to  prevail.  To  adopt  such 
a  plan  could  be  doing  nothing  but  sowing  the  seeds  of  interminable  discord,  which 
must  lead  to  consequences  that  all  could  see.  He  would  vote  with  the  gentleman  so 
soon  as  he  should  have  vanquished  them.  He  would  then  go  for  the  whole  of  what 
he  contended  for,  by  preference.  He  would  sooner  throw  himself  upon  the  genero- 
sity, he  might  almost  say,  the  charity  of  the  West,  than  take  a  fallacious  security — 
not  the  Balkan — but  a  mound  of  sand — something  with  which  to  cheat  his  constitu- 
ents, crying  to  them  peace,  peace,  when  there  was  no  peace,  and  never  could  be  any. 

From  the  days  of  Aristotle  till  that  day,  no  such  Government  had  ever  been  heard 
of— it  was  a  monster.  Two  branches  of  the  Legislature  representing  the  same  people^ 
elected  by  the  same  voters,  to  manage  the  same  interests,  to  be  pitted  against  each 
other  like  two  game  cocks,  to  tear  and  wound  each  other  till  one  or  the  other  should 
be  forced  to  submit ;  that  was  the  Government  proposed  for  Virginia  for  all  time  to 
come.  A  Government  of  numbers  in  opposition  to  property  was  Jacobinism,  rank 
Jacobinism.  He  was  about  to  say  pure  Jacobinism — but  nothing  pure;  nothing  de- 
fecated could  belong  to  the  thing.  It  was  to  be  an  arraying  of  numbers  against  pro- 
perty, and  then  they  would  soon  hear  the  old  cry,  "  peace  to  the  cottage,  war  to  the 
palace,"  and  when  the  Convention  should  have  established  this  Jacobinical  principle, 
it  was  not  a  few  despised  nobles— not  a  few  hated  priests,  odious  at  once  for  their  hy- 
pocricy  and  their  rapacity,  no— it  was  the  body  of  freeholders,  the  substantial  yeo- 
manry of  the  Commonwealth,  into  whose  mouth  they  were  to  put  that  bridle,  and 
into  whose  nose  they  would  put  that  hook.  But  they  never  could  do  it :  by  him  and 
his  friends  they  never  should  do  it :  they  ought  not — they  could  not  consent  to  it. 
And  aa  he  had  said  once  before,  to  make  the  attempt  would  only  be  to  sound  the 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


5^7 


ttumpet  of  civil  war.  It  might,  at  first,  be  a  weaponless  warfare,  a  war  of  words ; 
but  it  would  pour  into  the  cup  of  existence  an  animosity  so  deep  and  deadly  ;  it  would 
fix  in  the  bosoms  of  the  injured  a  wound  so  rankling  and  remediless;  that  nothing 
short  of  the  plenary  power  of  the  Federal  Government  would  be  able  to  keep  Vir- 
ginia together.  Tliere  was  another  consideration  which  he  had  intended  to  reserve 
for  an  after  time — but  he  would  submit  it  now — to  those  who  were  opposed  to  the  un- 
constitutional ;.  he  was  about  to  say,  to  the  arbitrary  usurpations  of  the  Federal  Gov- 
ernment— not  to  trust  their  objections  to  this  Convention  or  to  the  Constitution  which 
the  Convention  might  finally  adopt,  to  be  submitted  to  their  masters  at  "Washington 
to  have  their  imprimatur.  He  foresaw  if  the  basis  of  white  population  should  be 
agreed  to  for  the  Lower  House,  and  the  basis  of  the  Federal  number  for  the  Senate, 
when  it  came  to  be  debated  in  Congress  whether  such  a  form  of  Government  was  re- 
publican or  not  (for  the  General  Government  was  bound  to  guaranty  to  every  State 
in  the  Union  a  republican  form  of  Government,)  it  was  easy  to  see  what  would  be 
the  course  of  such  a  debate  in  the  future  House  of  Representatives  and  Senate, 

But,  his  purpose  had  not  been  to  enter  into  the  question,  but  to  assure  the  gentle- 
man from  Brooke  that  he  should  be  the  last  man  in  the  world  to  mete  out  to  him  and 
to  his  friends  in  the  West  the  hard  measure  which  that  gentleman  until  that  day  liad 
with  relentless  and  inexorable  determination  endeavoured  to  mete  out  to  him  and  his 
friends.  What  had  produced  so  great  a  change,  he  did  not  pretend  to  know:  it  was 
sufficient  for  him  to  mark  it  and  to  note  it. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  that  his  sentiments  had  undergone  no  change  whatever, 
and  if  

[Here  3Jr.  Ptandolph  interposed  to  explain  :  It  was  to  the  gentleman's  preference 
for  the  existing  Government,  and  his  willingness  to  adjourn  re  infecta  and  sine  die, 
that  he  had  alluded.] 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  that  he  owed  to  the  Committee  an  explanation  of  that.  He 
had  said  that  three  results  Vvere  before  them.  One  was,  that  the  whole  of  the  Wes- 
tern counties  would  unanimously  go  against  the  new  Constitution,  and  then  the  Gov- 
ernment would  continue  as  it  now  stood.  This  he  should  view  as  a  grievance.  But 
the  Constitution  by  which  the  Eastern  majority  now  governed  the  State,  was  one 
which  they  made  not — it  came  into  their  hands  in  a  fair,  honest,  and  legitimate  man- 
ner. But  a  Government  they  should  create  by  the  vote  of  a  majority  of  this  Con- 
vention, would  be  their  own  work  ;  its  oppression  would  be  their  own  act  and  deed, 
and  for  that  reason  the  people  of  the  West  would  be  less  satisfied  with  such  a  Con- 
stitution than  with  that  which  now  existed. 

It  ought  not  to  be  inferred  that  his  views  of  the  existing  Constitution  were  at  all 
changed,  or  that  he  was  in  the  least  degree  better  satisfied  with  it  because  he  prefer- 
red it  to  a  worse  Constitution  imposed  b}^  the  members  from  the  East.  He  would 
submit  to  it,  because  it  was  tiie  established  Government  of  the  State  :  and  so  he 
should  to  any  other,  however  objectionable  in  his  view,  which  the  people  should  en- 
join. His  loyalty  would  be  the  same,  though  his  personal  satisfaction  might  be  less.  But 
suppose,  as  a  third  result,  that  a  majority  of  this  House  should  send  out  a  Constitu- 
tion containing  the  principle  of  Federal  numbers  in  both  branches  of  the  Legislature, 
and  that  the  people  should  reject  it :  then,  the  excitement  and  dissatisfaction  would  be 
far  greater  than  if  the  Convention  should  break  up,  having  done  notliing. 

Mr.  Coalter  now  rose  and  said: 

I  had,  in  a  msual  conversauon  said,  that  I  for  one,  would  yield  much  in  order  to 
save  to  the  country  our  ancient  Right  of  Suffrage,  and  other  great  interests,  deemed 
by  me,  essential  to  the  preservation  of  the  Commonwealth.  And  if  this  could  be  ef- 
fected, I  would  be  disposed,  for  that  purpose,  to  accept  the  basis  of  Federal  numbers 
in  the  Senate.  I  was  afterwards  informed  that  this  casual  obscrzation  had  been  stated, 
and  was  counted  on,  so  far  as  one  vote  wc-nt,  in  relation  to  certain  measures  about  to 
be  proposed.  I  consequently  considered  it  due  to  myself  and  to  those  gentlemen,  to 
explain,  distinctly,  the  extent  to  which,  at  that  time,  1  had  been  disposed  to  go  :  at  the 
same  time  apprising  them,  that  propositions  were  now  before  us,  which  I  might  prefer. 

jMy  siiie  qua  non,  which  have  been  received  with  so  little  apparent  respect  by  the 
member  from  Rockbridge,  were  merely  carrying  into  detail,  on  my  part,  what  I  had 
always  asked  to  be  favoured  with  on  the  part  of  others,  as  far  as  possible  ;  that  is  to 
say,  a  view  of  the  ichole  bond.  I  wanted,  as  to  all  essential  jioints,  to  see  tlie  quid  for 
the  quo.  I  find,  though,  that  this  can't  be  done  ;  and  I  beg  pardon  of  both  sides  for 
the  attempt.  I  fear,  greatly  fear,  from  the  reception  of  my  simple  remarks — you  may 
take  the  word  simple  in  either  sense — that  no  proposition,  which  one  party  may  think 
reasonable,  will  be  received  by  the  other,  except  under  an  idea  that  some  insult  is 
intended. 

I  am  now  fearful  too,  that  nothing  can  stay  the  hand  of  innovation  except  a  steady 
vote.  Nay,  I  am  more  than  fearful,  that  if  the  gentlemen  from  the  West  could,  by 
one  single  vote,  fix  the  white  basis  in  both  Houses,  and  could  carry  every  scheme  of  in- 
novation which  they  have  proposed,  by  a  similar  vote,  they  would  think  they  were 
doing  God's  service^  by  giving  such  a  Constitution  to  Virginia. 


558 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


I  have,  therefore,  given  all  I  have  said,  or  thought  on  that  subject,  to  the  idle  winds. 

I  do  this  now,  with  the  less  regret,  because  I  find  that  my  notions  on  that  subject 
are  entirely  unsatisfactory,  at  this  time,  and  I  have  no  doubt  will  so  continue,  to  both 
sides  of  the  House. 

I  do  this,  too,  with  still  less  regret,  because  I  am  now  perfectly  confirmed,  in  what  I 
had  before  been  satisfied  of,  that  the  Federal  basis  is  the  true  and  just  basis  on  which 
the  representation  of  the  country  ought  to  be  established . 

I  ought  not  to  darken  counsel,  by  saying  one  word  on  this  subject,  after  the  argu- 
ment of  the  member  from  Orange,  (Mr.  Madison.)  That  argument  must  and  will 
carry  conviction  to  the  mind  of  every  cool-refiecting  man.  It  ought  to  be  the  tabula 
in  nuufragio,  in  the  hands  of  every  Virginia  politician  on  this  subject.  It  will  be  re- 
collected, that  I  was  not  in  the  House  to  hear  the  arguments  on  this  subject  formerly 
delivered — nor  have  I  seen  them  in  print. 

The  combined  ratio,  too,  is  not  so  plain,  and  so  easily  understood  as  the  Federal. 

But  I  beg  to  be  permitted  to  say,  that  this  has  always  appeared  to  me  to  be  a  ques- 
tion about  which  there  ought  to  be  no  division  here.  We  have  two  Governments  and 
two  Constitutions  ;  and  we  ought  not  to  put  them  at  war  with  each  other.  The  same 
reason  for  the  provision  in  the  one  applies  to  the  other.  This  is  not  denied,  so  far  as 
I  have  heard ;  but  the  one  was  a  compact,  and  it  is  the  bond.  Let  us  be  careful  how 
we  take  from  that  bond  its  just  basis,  so  ably  maintained  in  the  argument  I  have  al- 
luded to.  Virginia  may  again  be  called  upon  to  stand  in  the  breath,  and  on  this  very 
subject,  a  Daniel  may  come  to  judgment,  if  we  stand  purely  on  the  bond.  We  will 
then  want  that  panoply  and  shield  of  justice,  which  has  always  covered  the  breast  of 
Virginia  in  her  hour  of  need. 

The  lower  country  then,  in  my  opinion,  are  justly  entitled  to  that  as  the  basis  in 
both  Houses.  They  agree  though  to  yield  it  so  far,  according  to  my  understanding 
of  the  ])rinciple  proposed  in  the  resolutions,  as  to  give  to  the  people  West  of  the  Al- 
leghany three  or  four  members,  and  to  the  Valley  district  two  or  three  members  more 
than  they  would  be  entitled  to  on  that  basis  5  and  take  from  the  district  between  the 
Blue  Ridge  and  Tide-water,  three  or  four,  and  from  the  district  below  the  head  of 
Tide-water,  two  or  three,  to  which  they  would  be  entitled,  according  to  that  principle, 
-Now,  when  we  recollect  that,  in  counting  votes,  five  or  seven  are  taken  from  one  side 
:and  given  to  the  other,  I  think  it  must  be  manifest,  that  if  this  sacrifice,  for  the 
sake  of  peace,  is  not  enough,  it  is  in  vain  to  offer  any  thing  short  of  total  surrender. 

These  calculations  do  not  embrace  the  gain  on  one  side,  and  loss  on  the  other,  in 
the  Senate.  And  should  they  not  be  minutely  accurate  in  other  respects ;  yet  I  un- 
derstood the  principle  on  which  the  resolutions  are  founded  must  work  an  effect  of 
this  kind  ;  and  that  to  all  time,  according  to  the  modification  now  indicated. 

Assuming  then,  that  the  Federal  number  is  the  correct  basis,  this  plain  statement 
aiust  satisfy  every  one  of  the  generosity  of  this  offer  for  a  compromise. 

The  people  of  the  West  will  only  have  to  reconcile  themselves  to  the  propriety  of 
that  basis  to  be  satisfied,  that  ample  justice  has  been  done  them.  The  people  here, 
who  most  conscientiously  believe  that  this  basis  is  just,  and  none  more  so  than  myself, 
have  to  reconcile  to  themselves  the  loss  of  these  five  or  seven  members  more  or  less, 
to  which  they  are  entitled,  and  which  may  make  a  difference  of  ten  or  fourteen  on  a 
vote  and  to  a  probable  future  loss,  in  the  same  proportion,  when  the  number  of  mem- 
bers is  added  to  ;  to  say  nothing  of  a  similar  loss  in  the  Senate. 

They  must  find  their  consolation  in  this ;  that  it  was  the  price  of  peace  and 
harmony. 

I  feel  at  present  perfectly  convinced,  that  under  existing  circumstances,  this  measure, 
so  plain,  and  so  easily  understood  by  every  one,  will  reconcile  more  people  to  it,  on 
all  sides  of  the  question  and  country,  than  any  other  that  it  is  now  in  our  power  to 
adopt. 

The  principle  of  the  resolution,  therefore,  has  my  hearty  approbation  and  cordial 
support. 

Gentlemen  have  planted  their  standard — I  now  plant  mine  firmly  in  lower  Virginia, 
I  think  she  has  law,  justice  and  sound  policy  in  her  favor,  and  much  of  the  spirit  of 
conciliation. 

Mr.  Stanard,  after  recognizing  with  gratification  the  liberal  spirit  in  which  Mr. 
Cooke's  remarks  had  been  presented,  went  into  a  lengthy  argument  to  shew,  that  the 
doctrine  of  the  white  population,  being  a  fair  exponent  of  the  number  of  qualified 
voters,  was  false  and  delusive.  Going  on  the  basis  of  taxable  inhabitants,  the  propor- 
tions of  representation  between  the  East  and  West,  would  be  fifty  Representatives  for 
the  West,  and  seventy  for  the  East ;  whereas  Mr.  Cooke  gave  to  the  West  fifty-six, 
and  to  the  East  sixty-four.  Taxation  gave  the  East  a  majority  of  twenty ;  Numbers, 
a  majority  of  only  eight.  Yet,  he  would  not  take  taxation  as  a  rule,  because  the  re- 
turns were  liable  to  fraudulent  misrepresentation,  and  taxation  itself  was  under  the 
control  of  the  Legislature  :  but  he  would  combine  it  with  population  and  Federal 
number — the  result  would  coincide  almost  exactly  with  that  which  would  follow  from 


DEBATES   OF  THE 


CONVENTION'. 


550 


taking  voters  only.  He  urged  the  ground  of  principle  as  leading  to  the  same  basis  of 
K-epresentation  in  both  Houses,  and  exposed  the  inconsistency  of  pleading  for  one 
House  on  the  around  of  principle,  and  yet  surrendering  the  other,  though  the  prin- 
ciple applied  equally  to  both.  He  concluded  by  insisting;  that  a  plan  like  that  of  Mr. 
Cooke  did  not  deserve  to  be  considered  as  a  compromise.  In  the  course  of  his  Speech, 
Mr.  S.  referred  to  the  tabular  statement  below. 

Distribution  of  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  consisting  of  one  hun- 
dred and  twenty  members,  and  in  a  Senate  of  twenty-four  members,  upon  the  basis 
of  white  population  exclusively,  taking  as  the  rule  the  Auditor's  estimate  of  the  po- 
pulation of  18*29  ;  and  shewing  the  number  of  land-holders,  and  of  those  assessed  to 
the  payment  of  property  taxes,  which  would  be  necessary  to  give  one  Representative 
in  each  House  in  the  four  great  districts  of  the  State ;  and  the  average  amount  of 
direct  and  indirect  taxes  assessed  upon,  and  paid  bv,  the  constituents  of  each  member 
in  lS-28 : 


Districts. 

^  ?.  ~ 

1  • 

.. 

_c  J: 

. 

4    ^  ^ 

Western, 
Vallev, 
Middle, 
Tide-Water, 

1S13S4 
138132 
1972-22 
165523 

20946 
15114 
23744 
28052 

23323 
ia559 
30419 
25724 

31888 
24295 
34688 
29129 

6311 
4859 
5937 
5825 

655 
622 
783 
963 

3280 
3110 
3915 
4815 

731 
681 
876 
883 

3655 
3405 
4380 
4415 

S  952 
2168 
4092 
4051 

270 
402 
639 
13&4 

4660 
10840 
20460 
20255 

laSOj  11159 
2010  2344 
319514:331 
6820,4958 

.5295 
11720 
•21655 
24790 

92856 

9602.5 

Representation  according  to  land-holders.  Representation  on  tax-payers  on  personal  propertii. 

West,        -      -      -      -      46,816  West,        ______  "49,315 

East,  -      -      -      -      73,184  East,  70,785 

Mr.  Gordon  now  moved  to  amend  the  resolution,  by  substituting  the  following  .■■ 
Resolved,  That  the  representation  in  the  Senate  and  House  of  ^Delegates  of  Vir- 
ginia, shall  be  apportioned  as  follows  : 

"  There  shall  be  thirteen  Senators  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge  mountains,  and  nine- 
teen East  of  those  mountains. 

Tiiere  shall  be  in  the  House  of  Delegates  one  hundred  and  twenty-six  members: 
of  whom,  twenty-nine  shall  be  elected  from  the  district  West  of  the  Alleorhany  moun- 
tains ;  twenty-four  from  the  Valley  between  the  Alleghany  and  Blue  Ridge  ;  thirty- 
nine  from  the  Blue  Ridge  to  the  head  of  tide-water;  and  thirty -four  thence  below.'* 

He  wished  to  avoid  the  diiScult  question  of  future  apportionments,  thinking  it 
better  to  leave  that  wholly  unprovided  for,  than  to  adopt  any  plan  that  would  be  re- 
voltinsr  to  any  larcre  portion  of  the  State. 

On  Motion  of  Mr.  Leigh,  the  Committee  rose. 

The  amendment  of  Mr.  Gordon  was  ordered  to  be  printed;  and  then  the  House 
adjourned. 


FRIDAY,  December  4,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Sykes  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

Mr.  [Nicholas,  from  the  Committee  appointed  to  enquire  on  the  subject  of  a  place 
of  meeting  for  the  Convention,  after  the  meeting  of  the  Legislature,  made  the  fol- 
lowing report : 

The  Committee  appointed  to  enquire  into  the  expediency  of  providing  other  ac- 
commodations for  the  Convention,  have  performed  that  service,  and  submit  the  fol- 
lowing report : 

It  is'supposed,  that  as  the  Legislature  will  meet  on  Monday,  it  will  not  be  practica- 
ble for  the  Convention  to  continue  their  sittings  in  the  Hall  of  the  House  of  Dele- 
gates. Acting  under  this  impression,  the  Committee  next  turned  its  attention  to 
various  buildings  in  the  City,  but  soon  found  that  no  other  building  would  afford  the 
necessary  accommodation,  but  some  one  of  the  Churches  in  this  City.  Havincr 
examined  the  New  Presbyterian  Church  on  F  street,  the  Committee  are  of  opinioif, 
that  it  is  well  suited  to  the  object  in  view.    Lender  this  impression,  tliey  made  appli- 


560 


DEBATES  OP  THE  CONVENTION. 


cation  to  the  Rev.  Mr.  Armstrong,  and  through  him,  to  the  Trustees  of  the  Church; 
to  ascertain  whether  it  could  be  obtained.  The  Committee  beg  leave  to  state,  that 
their  application  was  received  in  a  gratifying  manner ;  and  that  tJie  Trustees,  as  well 
as  the  Fastor  of  the  Church,  evinced  the  greatest  promptitude  and  liberality,  in  af- 
fording the  Convention  any  accommodation  in  their  power.  The  subject  was  referred 
to  a  Committee  of  the  Trustees  of  the  Church,  who,  in  a  meeting  "with  this  Com- 
mittee, expressed  their  willingness,  that  the  Convention  should  have  the  use  of  their 
Church;  but,  with  an  understanding,  that  all  the  lower  floor  of  the  Church  be  appro- 
priated to  the  use  of  the  Convention,  of  ladies,  and  such  persons  as  the  President, 
under  the  established  rules,  may  admit  to  seats  on  the  first  floor ;  the  galleries,  which 
are  large  and  commodious,  to  be  appropriated  to  visitors  generally.  The  above  ar- 
rangement the  Trustees  supposed  to  be  calculated  to  guard  the  Church  against  injury  ; 
but,  as  the  building  is  recently  finished  at  a  great  expense  to  the  congregation,  the 
Trustees  expect,  tiiat  in  case  it  sustain  injury,  it  shall  be  returned  by  the  Conven- 
tion, or  under  its  authority,  in  as  good  a  condition  as  it  may  be  received  by  it.  The 
Trustees  are  also  desirous  that  hucksters,  and  other  venders,  should  not  be  admitted 
into  the  Church,  or  the  anti-chamber  to  the  same,  for  the  purpose  of  selling  or  dis- 
posing of  the  articles  in  which  they  deal. 

The  Committee  submit  to  the  Convention,  the  propriety  of  adopting  the  following 
resolutions: 

1.  That  the  Convention  agree  to  receive  the  use  of  the  Presbyterian  Church  on  F 
street,  upon  the  terms  stated  in  the  report  of  their  Committee,  to  have  been  proposed 
by  the  Trustees  of  said  Church. 

2.  That  the  Secretary  cause  to  be  procured,  and  placed  in  the  Presbyterian  Church 
on  F  street,  a  suitable  seat  for  the  President,  and  such  other  fixtures  as  are  necessary 
for  the  accommodation  of  the  Convention. 

A  conversation  ensued  between  Messrs.  Nicholas,  Mason,  Doddridge,  Goode,  and 
Claytor,  which  resulted  in  laying  the  report  for  the  present  upon  the  table. — Ayes  47, 
Noes  44. 

The  Convention  then  went  again  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  Stanard  in 
the  Chair. 

Mr.  Gordon  withdrew  his  amendment,  and  the  question  then  being  on  the  first 
resolution  in  the  scheme  proposed  by  Mr.  Upshur, 

Mr.  Green  suggested,  that  the  question  pending  was  not  on  the  adoption  of  the 
clause,  but  on  a  motion  to  strike  out  the  first  word  "  Resolved." 

The  Chair  reminded  Mr.  Green,  that  this,  though  it  had  been  talked  of  in  the  dis- 
cussion upon  order,  had  not  been  expressly  moved. 

Mr.  Johnson,  expressing  it  to  be  his  wish  to  get  the  sense  of  the  House  on  the 
merits  of  the  plan,  made  that  motion. 

A  conversation  in  relation  to  the  proper  course  to  be  pursued  took  place  between 
Messrs.  Johnson,  Leigh,  P.  P.  Barbour,  Upshur,  and  Mercer,  which  resulted  in  put- 
ting the  question  on  the  motion  to  strike  out  the  word  "  Resolved,"  (in  effect,  to  de- 
stroy Mr.  Upshur's  proposition.) 

Mr.  Johnson  rose  in  support  of  his  motion: 

He  said  that  he  expected  the  Committee  would  consider  the  proposition  on  its 
merits — that  they  would  direct  their  attention  only  to  the  principles,  and  consider  the 
details  as  if  modified  to  suit  their  own  inclinations.  He  was  sorry  the  propositions 
from  his  side  of  the  House  had  not  been  met  in  that  temper  with  which  every  attempt 
at  conciliation  ought  to  be  received — and  that  this  fault  extended  in  some  degree  to 
both  sides  of  the  House.  He  was  himself  disposed  to  give  gentlemen  credit  for  the 
utmost  sincerity  and  the  best  spirit,  insomuch  that,  personally,  he  had  some  difficulty 
in  choosing  among  the  propositions,  and  if  made  umpire  between  the  parties  he  should 
prefer  those  of  Mr.  Upshur  or  Mr.  Leigh  (which  he  considered  substantially  the  same) 
as  surpassing  in  simplicity  and  harmony  of  action.  But  he  was  not  umpire,  nor  did 
those  on  his  side  agree  Vv^ith  him  in  the  opinion  he  had  avowed.  He  preferred  greatly 
the  basis  of  qualified  voters — but  in  that  he  had  been  sustained  by  neither  side.  He 
was  now  left  to  choose  not  what  was  most  acceptable  to  him,  but  what  would  unite 
the  greatest  number  of  the  members  of  the  Convention. 

Such  a  compromise  ought  to  be  sought  as  when  fixed  upon  would  unite  not  a  bare 
negative,  but  a  large  portion  of  the  minority  also.  He  was  led  on  these  grounds,  to 
prefer  the  proposition  of  Mr.  Cooke. 

He  owned  the  force  of  the  arguments  addressed  to  him  by  the  other  side  in  favor  of 
the  Federal  number — but  it  could  not  be  made  plain  to  his  constituents.  They  had  a 
deep-rooted  antipathy  to  that  ground  of  apportionment — and  even  if  it  was  a  preju- 
dice, it  was  entitled  to  respect.  The  compromise  of  Mr.  Cooke  was  more  simple — 
more  easily  imderstood,  and  would,  he  believed,  be  more  acceptable  to  the  people. 
The  only  difference  between  the  plans  of  Mr.  Cooke  and  Mr.  Upshur  lay  in  this,  that 
the  same  elements  of  compromise  were  separately  applied  to  one,  and  applied  in  a 
combined  form  by  the  other :  how  then,  would  one  be  a  compromise,  and  the  other 
none  ^ 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


561 


The  danger  of  taking  Federal  numbers  as  a  true  exponent  of  the  number  of  quali- 
fied voters  lay  in  this,  that  if  the  calculation  proved  erroneous,  it  could  not  be  reme- 
died, and  it  might  turn  out  to  have  been  irrevocably  surrendered  into  the  hands  of  a 
minority:  if  a  minority  get  the  ascendancy  in  one  branch,  they  had  it  in  both. 

But,  if  Mr.  Cooke's  compromise  were  adopted,  the  Government  would  be  surren- 
dered neither  to  a  majority  nor  a  minority;  it  would  be  in  the  hands  of  a  majority  in 
one  House  and  of  a  minority  in  the  other.  He  insisted,  that  the  veto  of  the  Senate 
was  an  all-sufficient  guaranty  for  the  protection  of  the  slave-property  in  the  East. 

In  reply  to  Mr.  Leigh's  argument  that  the  Senate  would  be  overcome  and  a  new 
Convention  called  to  destroy  its  power,  he  said  that  this  objection  applied  to  every 
plan — a  new  Convention  might  overturn  any  system.  He  appealed  to  experience  to 
shew,  that  the  Senate  had  been  able  to  resist  the  Lower  House,  but  if  the  deliberate  will 
of  its  constituents  was  expressed,  it  ought  not  to  have  power  to  resist  that  v/ill.  As  to 
the  constancy  of  the  Senate  being  subdued  by  the  Lower  House  refusing  to  send  up 
necessary  money  bills  and  stopping  the  wheels  of  Government,  it  was  what  no  Dele- 
gates annually  elected  would  dare  to  do.  He  had  seen  the  experiment  made ;  the 
Senate  did  reject  almost  unanimously  a  money  bill  passed  in  the  liouse  by  an  over- 
whelming majority.  The  charge  of  aristocracy,  while  it  might  intimidate  some  men, 
would  make  others  but  the  more  firm ;  and  besides,  if  weak  nerves  feared  the  charge 
here,  would  they  not  fear  the  opposite  charge  nmcli  more  at  home  ?  Some  trust  must 
be  reposed,  if  gentlemen  would  have  any  Representative  Government  at  all :  if  not,  they 
must  go  back  to  pure  democracy  or  forward  to  absolute  despotism.  The  objection  as 
to  a  constant  conflict  between  the  two  Houses  was  not  without  weight;  but  he  had  con- 
fidence in  the  discretion  of  both,  and  had  besides  seen  the  thing  in  practice,  under  the 
former  organization  of  the  Senate;  and  it  produced  no  serious  conflict  or  injury. 

Mr.  Marshall  rose  and  addressed  the  Cluiir  nearly  as  follows  : 

Two  propositions  respecting  the  basis  of  Representation  have  divided  this  Conven- 
tion almost  equally.  One  party  has  supported  the  basis  of  white  population  alone,  the 
other  has  supported  a  basis  compounded  of  white  population  and  taxation ;  or  which 
is  the  same  thing  in  its  result,  the  basis  of  Federal  numbers.  The  question  has  been 
discussed,  until  discussion  has  become  useless.  It  has  been  argued,  until  argument  is 
exhausted.  We  have  now  met  on  the  ground  of  compromise.  It  is  now  no  longer  a 
question  whether  the  one  or  the  other  shall  be  adopted  entirely,  but  whether  we 
shall,  as  a  compromise,  adopt  a  combination  of  the  two,  so  as  to  unite  the  House  on 
something  which  we  may  recommend  to  the  people  of  Virginia,  with  a  reasonable 
hope  that  it  may  be  adopted. 

Now,  when  on  the  subject  of  compromise,  two  propositions  are  again  submitted  to 
the  Committee;  one  of  them  is,  that  the  two  principles  originally  proposed  shall  re- 
main distinct ;  one  of  them  constituting  the  basis  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  the 
other  of  the  Senate.  The  other  proposition  is,  that  the  two  principles  shall  be  com- 
bined and  made  the  basis  of  both  Houses.  This  latter  proposition  presents  the  exact 
middle  ground  between  white  population  exclusively,  and  the  basis  of  white  population 
combined  with  taxation,  or  what  has  been  denominated  the  basis  of  Federal  numbers. 

The  motion  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  (Mr.  Johnson)  to  strike  out  the  word 
"  Resolved,"  from  the  proposition  offered  by  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  (Mr. 
Upshur,)  is  intended  to  substitute  for  the  combined  ratio,  which  is  the  foundation  of 
that  gentleman's  scheme,  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr. 
Cooke,)  which  is  to  introduce  white  population  exclusively  as  tlie  basis  of  the  House 
of  Delegates,  and  white  population  and  taxation  combined  as  the  basis  of  the  Senate. 
This  is  the  question  now  before  the  Committee. 

We  are  engaged  on  the  subject  of  compromise, — a  compromise  of  principles  which 
neither  is  willing  to  surrender.  The  very  term  implies  mutual  concession.  Some 
concession  must  be  made  on  both  sides,  but  the  quantum  to  be  made  by  each  must 
depend  on  the  relative  situation  of  the  parties,  and  this  must  be  considered  before  a 
right  judgment  can  be  formed  on  the  subject.  Let  us  enquire,  then,  what  is  the  real 
situation  of  the  parties  on  this  question.  On  this  enquiry  will  depend  the  reasona- 
bleness of  any  compromise  that  may  be  proposed. 

The  past  discussion  shows  conclusively  the  sincerity  with  which  each  principle  has 
been  supported.  There  can  be  no  doubt  of  the  honest  conviction  of  each  side,  that 
its  pretensions  are  fair  and  just.  The  claims  of  both  are  sustained  with  equal  sin- 
cerity, and  an  equally  honest  conviction,  that  their  own  principle  is  correct,  and  the 
adversary  principle  is  unwise  and  incorrect.  On  the  subject  of  principle,  nothing  can 
be  added,  no  advantage  can  be  claimed  by  either  side  ;  for,  no  doubt  can  be  entertained 
of  the  sincerity  of  either.  To  attempt  now  to  throw  considerations  of  principle  into 
either  scale,  is  to  add  fuel  to  a  flame  which  it  is  our  purpose  to  extinguish.  We  must 
lose  sight  of  the  situation  of  parties  and  state  of  opinion,  if  we  make  this  attempt. 

What  is  that  situation? 

A  question  has  been  taken  in  the  Committee  on  the  proposition  first  submitted  to 
us,  and  it  has  been  carried  by  a  majority  of  two.    Is  it  possible  under  existing  cir- 

71 


562 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


cumstances,  that  any  confidence  can  be  reposed  in  this  decision  ?  Can  either  the 
majority  or  minority  feel  any  confidence  that  the  same  question  will  hereafter  be  again 
decided  precisely  in  the  same  manner  ?  Can  we  be  blind  to  the  actual  working  of 
public  opinion  ?  Do  not  gentlemen  believe  it  to  be  more  probable,  that  at  least  some 
one  of  the  members  of  this  majority,  ma}'-  change  his  opinion  and  thus  leave  the 
House  equally  divided  ?  Is  it  not  even  probable  that  a  still  greater  change  may  take 
place,  so  as  to  place  the  present  scanty  majority,  with  the  same  paucity  of  numbers 
on  the  other  side  ?  Can  any  gentleman  be  confident  how  this  question  will  be  ulti- 
mately decided  ?  None  of  us  can  be  certain  that  its  result  in  the  House  will  be  the 
same  that  it  has  been  in  Committee. 

But  let  us  decide  one  way  or  the  other;  if  the  majority  shall  be  so  small,  if  the  opi- 
nions of  the  Convention  shall  be  so  nearly  balanced,  tlie  Constitution  will  go  forth  to 
the  people,  deriving  very  little  additional  weight  from  the  recommendation  of  this 
body.  The  majority  and  minority  will  have  almost  equal  weight,  and  the  Constitu- 
tion will  rest  on  itself.  Is  it  possible  to  conceal  from  ourselves,  that  the  powerful  ar- 
guments of  the  minority  conveyed  to  the  people  through  the  Press,  supported  by  the 
co-operating  interest  of  a  large  district  of  country  whose  weight  has  been  placed  in 
the  opposite  scale,  may  produce  great  effect?  The  endeavor  would  be  vain  to  con- 
ceai  the  fact,  that  in  a  part  of  tlie  Eastern  country — that  lying  upon  and  South  of 
James  river  near  tlie  Blue  Ridge,  there  are  iiiterests  which  must  and  will  operate  with 
great  force,  unless  human  nature  shall  cease  to  be  what  it  has  been  in  all  time.  It  is 
impossible  to  say  what  may  be  the  influence  on  those  interests  abroad,  though  they 
may  exert  none  on  the  members  of  this  Convention.  It  is  impossible  to  say,  how  far 
they  may  affect  the  adoption  or  rejection  of  the  Constitution.  But  it  is  by  no  means 
certain,  that  this  change  in  public  opinion  will  not  be  felt  in  this  body  also.  Admitting 
gentlemen  to  retain  their  theories — theories  which  they  maintain  with  perfect  sin- 
cerity, still  there  exists  another  theory  equally  Republican,  and  which  they  equally 
respect,  the  theory  that  it  is  the  duty  of  a  Representative  to  speak  the  will  of  his  con- 
stituents. We  cannot  say  how  far  this  may  carry  gentlemen.  Neither  can  we  say 
what  will  be  the  iiltimate  decision  of  this  House  or  of  the  people. 

Taking  this  view  of  the  state  of  parties,  it  is  manifest  that  to  obtain  a  just  compro- 
mise, concession  must  not  only  be  mutual — it  must  be  equal  also.  The  claims  of  the 
parties  are  tlie  same.  Each  ought  to  concede  to  the  other  as  much  as  he  demands  from 
that  other,  and  thus  meet  on  middle  ground.  There  can  be  no  hope  that  either  will 
yield  more  than  it  gets  in  retu^rn. 

What  is  that  middle  ground  ? 

One  party  proposes  that  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  be  formed  on  the  basis  of 
white  population  exclusively,  and  the  Senate  on  the  mixed  basis  of  white  population 
and  taxation,  or  on  the  Federal  numbers.  The  other  party  proposes  that  the  white 
population  shall  be  combined  with  Federal  numbers,  and  shall,  mixed  in  equal  pro- 
portions, form  the  basis  of  Representation  in  both  Houses.  This  last  proposition 
must  be  equal.  All  feel  it  to  be  equal.  If  the  two  principles  are  combined  exactly, 
and  thus  combined,  form  the  basis  of  both  Houses,  the  compromise  must  be  perfectly 
equal. 

Is  the  other  proposition  equal  ?  1  ask  the  gentlemen  who  make  it,  if  they  think  it  so  1 

The  party  in  favor  of  the  compound  basis  in  both  Houses  have  declared  their  con- 
viction, that  there  is  no  equality  in  the  proposition.  They  at  least  think  it  unequal. 
How  can  they  accede  to  a  proposition  as  a  compromise  which  they  firmly  believe  to 
be  unequal.^  Do  gentlemen  of  the  opposite  party  think  it  equal.?  If  they  do,  why 
refuse  to  take  what  they  offer  to  us .? 

They  consent  that  the  Senate  shall  be  founded  on  the  mixed  basis,  and  the  House  of 
Delegates  on  the  white  basis.  If  this  be  equality,  why  will  they  not  take  the  Senate  .>* 
There  can  be  only  one  reason  for  rejecting  it — they  think  the  proposition  unequal. 
If  the  Senate  would  protect  the  East,  will  it  not  protect  the  West  also  ?  If  the  pro- 
position is  equal  when  tlie  Senate  is  tendered  by  them  to  us,  is  it  not  equal  when  ten- 
dered by  us  to  them.?  If  it  is  equal,  it  must  be  a  matter  of  absolute  indifference 
to  which  part}'  the  Senate  is  assigned.  If  a  difficulty  arises,  it  is  because  the  propo- 
sition is  unequal ;  and  if  it  be  unequal,  can  gentlemen  believe  that  it  will  be  accepted  } 
Ought  they  to  wish  it .? 

After  the  warm  language  (to  use  the  mildest  phrase)  which  has  been  mingled  with 
argument  on  both  sides,  I  heard  with  inexpressible  satisfaction,  propositions  for  com- 
promise proposed  by  both  parties  in  the  language  of  conciliation.  I  hailed  these  au- 
spicious appearances  with  as  much  joy,  as  the  inhabitant  of  the  polar  regions  hails  the 
re-appearance  of  the  sun  after  his  long  absence  of  six  tedious  months.  Can  these  ap- 
pearances prove  fallacious?  Is  it  a  meteor  we  have  seen  and  mistaken  for  that  splen- 
did luminary  v/hich  dispenses  light  and  gladness  throughout  creation  ?  It  must  be  so, 
if  we  cannot  meet  on  equal  ground.  If  we  cannot  meet  on  the  line  that  divides  us 
equally,  then  take  the  hand  of  friendship,  and  make  an  equal  compromise ;  it  is  vaia 
to  hope  that  any  compromise  can  be  made. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


563 


Mr.  Mercer,  after  expressing  t'ae  reluctance  wliich  he  felt  at  all  times  to  trespass  on 
the  time  of  the  House,  and  the  pecuhar  embarrassment  under  which  he  now  laboured, 
referred  to  the  feelings  of  good  will  toward  every  part  of  Virginia,  which  he  had 
brought  with  him  to  the  Convention,  and  their  still  undiminished  force.  He  hoped 
the  asperities  of  all  parties  had  nearly  subsided,  and  that  the  Committee  had  attained 
that  state  of  tranquillity,  so  favourable  to  the  exercise  of  reason.  He  then  expressed 
toward  Judge  ^Marshall  a  filial  respect  and  veneration  not  surpassed  by  the  ties  which 
had  bound  him  to  a  natural  parent,  long  since  returned  to  the  dust.  Yet  he  was  un- 
able to  meet  his  proposition.  He  thought  complete  justice  had  not  been  done  to  their 
side  of  the  question.  All  their  opponents  had  conceded  that  if  equal  numbers  always 
possessed  equal  wealth,  numbers  might  be  urged  as  a  fair  exponent  of  pohtical  power: 
but  the  unequal  distribution  of  property  rendering  this  impossible,  some  protection 
was  needed  for  it.  But  did  gentlemen  ever  claim  any  tiling  more  than  enough  of 
political  power.'  He  adverted  to  the  course  which  had  been  pursued  in  the  Legisla- 
tive Committee — the  majoritv  which  had  been  for  the  white  basis,  and  the  vote  of 
IVIr.  Madison  in  its  favour — the  subsequent  majority  of  two  in  the  House.  Under 
these  circumstances,  they  might  have  at  once  decided  on  that  principle,  and  after  ar- 
ranging the  Right  of  SuffraDre,  sent  both  to  the  people.  Then  they  should  have  had 
a  Senate  based  on  white  population,  (arranged  in  1>'26.)  and  a  House  of  Delegates  on 
the  same  basis.  Yet  they  had  agreed  to  concede  so  far.  as  to  introduce  the  principle 
of  the  Federal  number  in  the  Senate.  Hence  he  argued  the  spirit  of  forbearance 
which  had  governed  the  West.  He  objected  to  insisting  on  a  security  beyond  the 
danger  wliich  called  for  it — and  from  the  examples  of  Xortli  and  South  Carolina,  in- 
ferred that  no  fears  were  to  be  entertained  of  strife  between  the  two  Houses.  He 
went' into  a  statistical  statement  to  shew  that  the  results  of  white  population,  and 
qualified  voters  were  in  substance  the  same. 

He  had  risen  to  shew,  that  the  majority  had  not  been  claimed  of  them  which  Mr. 
Marshall  said  ought  to  be  allowed,  only  as  a  defensive  guard ;  wliile  Mr.  Madison 
thou2:ht  that  security  would  be  given  by  adopting  the  whole  basis  in  one  House,  and 
the  Federal  numbers  in  the  other.  But  now,  a  principle  of  exact  equality  and  not 
merely  of  defence  and  protection,  was  demanded. 

^Ib..  Baldwin  addressed  the  Chair: 

Mr.  Chairman :  I  certainly  should  not  trespass  upon  the  attention  of  the  Connnittee, 
especially  at  this  late  period  of  the  debate,  but  for  one  consideration.  Havinsr  on  a 
former  occasion  suggested  a  plan  of  compromise  substantially  the  same  with  that  now 
offered  by  the  gentleman  from  Frederick.  (!Mr.  Cooke.)  and  the  merits  of  which  must 
be  weighed  in  determining  the  present  question,  I  feel  it  to  be  a  duty  which  I  owe 
to  myself  and  my  constituents,  tliat  the  motives  for  my  conduct  should  be  distinctly 
understood.  There  are  some  gentlemen  on  this  floor,  who.  entertaining  an  enthusi- 
astic, and  no  doubt,  honest  attachment  to  tlie  existing  Constitution,  do  not  seem  dis- 
posed to  view  the  course  pursued  by  their  adversaries  with  sufficient  induiorence. 
Hence  we  have  had  charges  which  it  becomes  those  assailed  to  repel — charges  of 
such  a  nature,  as  maybe  best  repelled  by  a  free  and  candid  exposition  of  our  motives 
and  conduct. 

Though  I  do  not  profess.  Sir,  to  have  made  politics  my  study,  or  to  have  had  much 
experience  in  pubhc  affairs,  there  is  one  truth  deeply  impressed  on  my  mind,  which 
cannot  escape  the  most  casual  observer.  "Whoever  acts  the  part  of  a  statesman,  how- 
ever humble,  or  however  distinguished,  is  compelled,  if  he  be  honest,  to  make  great 
sacrifices.  On  this  occasion,  I  feel  myself  constrained  by  a  sense  of  duty  to  make 
&  sacrifice  of  opinion,  of  feeling,  even  of  consistency  itself.  It  shall  be  made,  fi-eely 
made — upon  the  altar  of  my  country,  without  hesitating  a  moment  to  consider  the 
consequences  personal  to  myself.  3-Iy  only  answer,  tlierefore,  to  the  charge  of  in- 
consistency is,  that  I  confes's  and  justify  it.  What  is  my  justification .-  The  peace, 
the  happiness,  the  safety  of  Virginia.  Mr.  Chairman,  this  is  a  momentous  crisis  in 
the  destiny  of  our  State.  In  this  Assembly,  convened  by  the  highest  exercise  of 
sovereign  power,  the  waves  of  controversy  liave  risen  to  a  great  height — they  have 
extended  beyond  us  in  every  direction,  and  threaten  to  overwhelm  the  whole  Com- 
monwealth. We  are  now  to  determine  v.-hether  we  shall  pour  oil  upon  those  waves, 
or  permit  the  storm  to  rage  with  reckless  and  resistless  fury.  Is  this  a  time  to  indulge 
the  pride  of  opinion,  the  spirit  of  party,  the  love  of  consistency;  or  does  the  occasion 
demand  the  influence  of  widely  different  and  far  higher  motives 

It  must  now  be  obvious  to  all,  that  if  this  disagreeable  and  dangerous  controversy 
is  to  be  happily  adjusted,  the  only  practicable  means  is  that  of  compromise.  The 
parties  on  this  "floor  may  be  regarded  as  equally  balanced.  We  have  a  majority  of 
two  in  favour  of  the  white  basis  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  but  it  is  well  understood 
that  tliere  is  an  equal  majority  opposed  to  a  similar  basis  in  the  Senate.  If  both  par- 
ties should  remain  inflexible,  what  hope  is  there  of  a  profitable  termination  of  our 
labours  r  Is  the  contest  to  be  continued  throughout  the  whole  of  the  session,  and 
upon  all  the  details  of  the  subject  ?  Is  this  question  of  relative  political  power,  to 


564 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


mingle  itself  with,  and  influence  the  consideration  and  decision  of  every  proposed 
amendment  in  the  Constitution  ?  Shall  we  exhaust  our  own  patience  and  that  of  the 
people,  and  finally  return  home,  not  the  harbingers  of  reconciliation  and  peace,  but  of 
interminable  discord  and  hatred  ? 

These  considerations  have  forced  upon  my  mind  the  necessity  of  compromise,  and 
I  have  yielded  to  that  necessity,  though  not  without  great  repugnance  and  difficulty. 
I  act  upon  my  own  responsibility,  without  pledging  or  committing  my  constituents 
in  the  slightest  degree.  They  will  decide  for  themselves;  and  are  capable  of  esti- 
mating the  magnitude  of  the  proposed  concession  on  their  part,  and  of  the  mischiefis 
which  it  is  intended  to  obviate. 

I  have  been  much  surprised  to  hear  it  repeatedly  asserted,  that  we  have  shewn  no 
spirit  of  conciliation,  on  our  part,  and  no  disposition  to  meet  the  adverse  party  on 
middle  ground.  What,  Sir,  was  the  original  demand  of  the  Western  members,  and 
those  associated  with  them.?  They  contended  for  the  basis  of  white  population  in 
both  branches  of  the  Legislature,  as  required  by  justice,  sound  policy,  and  the  funda- 
mental principles  of  our  republican  system.  They  were  vigorously  resisted,  on  the 
ground,  that  property  would  be  rendered  insecure,  by  looking  only  to  numbers,  in 
the  apportionment  of  representation.  It  was  not  denied,  but  on  the  contrary  admit- 
ted by  several  of  the  Eastern  members,  that  as  a  general  rule,  the  majority  ought  to 
have  the  ascendancy  in  a  Republican  Government.  But  the  conflicting  interests 
existing  in  Virginia,  were  appealed  to  as  justifying  a  departure  from  that  rule.  I 
ask,  if  security  for  property  was  not  the  great  and  only  object  declared  by  those  op- 
posed to  the  basis  of  white  population;  and  if  that  security,  by  means  of  representa- 
tion, is  all  that  is  desired,  whether  it  be  not  furnished  by  the  concession  of  Federal 
numbers  in  the  Senate  ? 

We  have  been  charged  at  one  moment  with  inconsistency;  and  at  another,  with 
inflexible  pertinacity.  These  impulations  may  be  retorted,  with  much  more  propriety, 
against  those,  from  whom  they  have  proceeded.  Representation,  according  to  Fede- 
ral numbers,  was  not,  in  the  first  instance,  demanded  in  this  Assembly  by  our  adver- 
saries. It  was  not  proposed,  until  after  strength  had  been  gained  here,  and  with  the 
people,  by  the  powerful  efforts  made  to  excite  alai-ms  for  the  security  of  property. 
At  first,  nothing  more  than  the  mixed  basis  of  white  population  and  taxation  was  re- 
quired. I  think  I  may  confidently  assert,  that  a  compromise  might  have  been  had 
early  in  the  session,  by  yielding  the  mixed  basis  in  the  Senate — at  all  events,  by 
yielding  the  basis  of  taxation  in  that  branch  of  the  Legislature.  The  latter  proposi- 
tion, it  will  be  recollected,  was  offered  as  a  scheme  of  compromise,  by  the  gentleman 
from  Fauquier,  (Mr.  Scott.) 

But,  even  if  the  Federal  numbers  for  both  branches  of  the  Legislature  had  been 
originally  demanded  on  this  floor,  we  surely  meet  our  adversaries  on  middle  ground 
when  we  offer  to  yield  that  basis  in  the  Senate,  and  insist  only  upon  representation 
according  to  white  population  in  the  House  of  Delegates.  Gentlemen  must  not  re- 
gard us  as  conceding  nothing  on  our  part,  because  they  choose  to  consider  our  pre- 
tensions as  dangerous  or  visionary.  They  will  gain  nothing  by  treating  all  proposi- 
tions for  alterations  of  the  existing  system,  as  the  wild  schemes  of  revolutionists  and 
mad  reformers.  Let  every  proposition  be  examined  upon  its  own  merits,  and  adopted, 
if  wise,  or  rejected,  if  mischievous.  For  myself,  I  can  freely  declare  that  there  are 
few  members  of  this  Assembly  who  estimate  the  existing  Constitution  more  highly 
than  I  do.  So  far  from  having  any  thirst  for  innovation,  I  have  been  uniformly  op- 
posed to  the  call  of  a  Convention,  believing  the  practical  operation  of  the  Govern- 
ment to  have  been  substantially  good,  and  fearing  to  hazard  blessings  attained  in 
search  of  others,  perhaps  unattainable.  I  am  not  disposed,  however,  to  shut  my  eyes 
against  the  defects  of  the  present  Constitution ;  and  there  is  surely  none  so  glaring 
as  the  inequality  of  representation.  On  this  subject,  I  would  ask  if  we  are  not  all 
reformers  ?  The  existing  plan  of  county  representation  has  no  advocates  in  this  Con- 
vention— no  one  here  will  raise  his  voice  in  favour  of  a  system  which  gives  to  one- 
third  of  the  people  the  election  of  one-half  the  representatives  in  the  most  numerous 
branch  of  the  Legislature  ;  which  places  the  smallest  county  on  an  equal  footing  as 
regards  political  power  with  others  ten  times  superior  in  population,  territory  and 
wealth.  Even  my  worthy  and  eloquent  friend  from  Charles  City,  (Mr.  Tyler,) 
whose  constituents  have  so  much  reason  to  be  partial  to  the  present  system,  felt  him- 
self compelled  on  yesterday  to  surrender  the  undue  advantages,  which  they  now  en- 
joy, to  what  he  considers  the  conunon  good. 

It  being  conceded  on  all  hands,  that  the  present  plan  of  Representation  is  defec- 
tive, and  ought  to  be  reformed,  the  question  has  of  course  arisen,  in  what  mode  the 
object  ought  to  be  effected.?  A  question  which  necessarily  involves  the  principles  by 
which  we  are  to  be  governed.  I  came  here.  Sir,  with  the  most  perfect  conviction, 
which  still  remains  unshaken,  that  Representation  ought  to  be  apportioned,  with  all 
practicable  equality,  throughout  the  Commonwealth,  amongst  the  qualified  voters ; 
and  that  no  regard  to  relative  wealth  or  other  considerations,  can  justify  the  subjec- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CON'VEXTIOX. 


565 


tion  of  the  majorltr  to  the  power  and  domimon  of  the  minority.  In  common  with  the 
other  members  from  the  Western  part  of  the  State,  I  have  been  induced,  for  the  rea- 
sons already  suggested,  and  in  the  hope  of  quieting  the  pubhc  mind,  now  so  greatly 
agitated,  to'^make  a  concession,  which  it  was  hoped  would  be  satisfactory  to  most  of 
our  Eastern  brethren.  The  compromise  proposed  by  us,  while  it  does  not  surrender 
the  principles  for  which  we  have  contended,  furnisiies  all  the  security,  so  much  in- 
sisted upon,  which  can  be  derived  from  the  representation  of  property.  On  the  one 
hand,  while  the  will  of  tlie  majority  will  be  fully  and  fairly  expressed  in  the  most 
popular  branch  of  the  Legislature,  the  basis  of  Federal  numbers  in  the  Senate  will,  if 
anv  plan  of  property  Representation  can,  present  a  bcirrier  against  incursions  upon  the 
rights  of  property,  and  tJie  exaction  of  partial  or  excessive  contributions. 

°But  it  has  been  urged,  that  if  the  same  basis  of  P«.epresentation  be  not  adopted  for 
both  branches  of  the  Legislature,  there  will  be  a  contmual  warfare  between  the  two 
Houses — that  the  Senate  will  not  be  able  to  withstand  the  assaults  of  the  more  nume- 
rous badv;  and  will  be  rendered  odious  with  the  people  by  the  cry  of  aristocracy.  My 
friend  and  colleague  (Mr.  Johnson)  in  his  argument  just  dehvered,  has  showed  very 
clearly  the  efficiency  heretofore  of  tlie  controlling  power  in  the  Senate.  Will  that 
efficiency  be  destroyed  by  giving  to  the  Senate  the  basis  of  Federal  numbers?  What, 
then,  would  be  the  effect  of  introducing  that  basis,  either  in  the  whole,  or  in  part,  into 
both  branches  of  the  Legislature?  Sir,  I  have  uniformly  thought  and  declared,  that 
the  scheme  of  property  Representation,  instead  of  affording  the  protection  so  anxiously 
desired,  would  only  tend  to  impair  the  security  of  property.  It  matters  not  whether 
you  confine  the  principle  to  one  House,  or  infuse  it  into  both;  you  will  equally  excite 
the  hostility  of  those  whose  political  power  is  thereby  diminished.  The  people  are  not 
bhnd — they  will  see  and  understand  the  practical  operation  of  tlie  principle,  and  it  will 
not  be  more  disguised  by  extending  it  to  both  branches,  than  by  commimicating  it  to 
one  only.  The  cry  of  aristocracy  might  be  raised  by  demagogues  in  either  case,  with, 
the  same  force  and  effect, 

Mr.  Chairman,  there  can  be  no  hope  of  callingr  back  efentlemen  to  a  calm  and  dis- 
passionate consideration  of  the  evil  consequences  to  which  their  principles  lead.  They 
cannot  be  persuaded,  that  the  best  security  for  property  is  to  be  fotmd  in  the  moral 
sense  and  intelligence  of  the  community ;  in  the  natural  and  legitimate  influence  of 
%vea!th,  talents  and  learning  ;  in  tlie  common  interest  which  all  classes  have  in  a  just 
and  wholesome  course  of  legislation.  But  while  they  ask  for  power  as  the  only  ade- 
quate means  of  security,  do  tliey  not  perceive  how  odious  it  will  become  if  extended 
beyond  the  only  plausible  object  for  which  it  can  be  demanded?  The  majority  may 
be  reconciled  to  a  restraining  power  in  the  least  numerous  and  most  discreet  branch  of 
the  Legislature;  a  power,  which  will  not  dictate,  but  merely  protect;  but  can  they  be 
ever  reconciled  to  a  surrender  of  all  the  powers  of  Government  for  ages  to  come,  into- 
the  hands  of  the  minorit}-  ? 

It  is  far.  Sir.  from  my  desire,  that  the  protection  conceded  by  the  compromise,  which, 
we  propose,  should  prove  in  any  respect  illusory.  Though  extremely  averse  to  the 
concession,  yet  having  once  determined  upon  it,  I  am  prepared,  so  far  as  I  am  con- 
cerned, to  carry  it  into  effect,  fairly,  candidly  and  cheerfully;  without  chaffering  or 
higgling  about  petty  details.  Let  the  Senate  be  so  organized  as  to  remove  all  reason- 
able objections  from  the  other  side,  to  its  efficiency  in  resisting  any  apprehended  in- 
vasions by  the  Lower  House,  of  the  rights  of  property.  XbusTar  I  am  willing  to  o-o, 
in  a  spirit  of  conciliation,  and  for  the  sake  of  peace  :  and  upon  the  supposition  that 
both  parties  are  equally  confident  in  the  justice  of  their  original  demands,  I  am  at  a  . 
loss  to  perceive  how  the  terms  which  we  offer  can  be  reofarded  as  inadequate. 

It  was  urged,  !Mr.  Chairman,  by  yourself  on  yesterday,  by  way  of  objection  to  our 
terms  of  compromise,  that  a  fair  deduction  from 'our  own  principles  would  not  give  the 
whole  white  population  as  the  proper  basis  for  the  House  of  Delegates,  but  only  the 
qualified  voters,  who  alone  enjoy  the  rights  of  sovereignty.  You  endeavoured  to  shew 
that  the  Western  people,  according  to  the  relative  proportions  of  qualified  voters, 
would  gain  less,  than  by  assuming  the  whole  white  population  as  the  standard.  And 
hence  you  inferred,  that  instead  of  requiring  the  basis  of  white  population  for  the  House 
of  Delegates,  we  ought  to  be  contented  with  that  of  qualified  voters.  Without  goino- 
into  anv  examination  of  your  premises,  I  cannot  admit  the  correctness  of  your  conclu^ 
sion.  1  would  be  perfectly  satisfied  myself  with  the  basis  of  qualified  voters  for  both 
branches  of  the  Legislature;  but  who  of  the  opposite  party  would  be  willing  to  adopt 
it?  And  where  would  be  the  propriety  of  introducing  it  into  tlie  House  of  Delegates, 
if  Federal  numbers  should  be  the  rule  for  the  Senate"?  Ton  do  not  propose  to  make 
any  deduction  from  the  Federal  numbers,  embracing  all  the  whites  and  three-fifths  of 
all  other  persons;  then  why  insist,  that  any  deductTon  should  be  made  from  the  basis 
of  white  population? 

If  the  terms  of  compromise  which  we  propose  be  not  unjust  nor  unequal  as  reo-ards 
the  adverse  party,  then  why  not  adopt  them  ?  Why  do  gentlemen  insist  upon  a°plan 
of  Representation  inexpressibly  odious  to  the  Western  people  ?    We  have  been  told 


566 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


repeatedly,  with  great  propriety,  in  the  course  of  our  debates,  that  in  the  constructing 
our  fundamental  law,  not  only  the  rights  and  interests,  but  even  the  prejudices  of  the 
people  ought  to  be  consulted.  We  ought  not  to  wound  that  pride  of  character,  with- 
out which,  the  gentleman  from  Chesterheld  will  agree  with  me,  there  can  be  nothing 
estimable.  I  do  most  heartily  wish  that  by  any  exertion  of  my  humble  talents.  I  could 
impress  upon  this  Committee  what  are  the  feelings  of  the  Western  people  on  this  sub- 
ject. I  am  sure  that  they  are  not  correctly  understood  by  many  persons  in  this  body  ; 
and  if  properly  estimated,  would  lead  to  a  more  calm  and  deliberate  consideration 
of  the  question.  The  Eastern  people  demand,  as  we  are  told,  only  security — not  for 
their  personal  rights,  but  for  their  property;  and  it  is  granted,  by  conceding  Repre- 
sentation according  to  Federal  numbers  in  the  Senate.  They  would  sustain  no  pangs 
of  humiliation  by  yielding  to  the  basis  of  white  population  in  the  House  of  Delegates; 
and  would  soon  become  reconciled  to  the  compromise.  What  do  the  Western  peo- 
ple demand  That  equal  Representation  which  is  to  give  protection  not  only  to  their 
property,  but  to  their  persons ;  and  place  them  upon  an  equality  v/ith  the  other  free- 
men of  the  Commonwealth.  Let  the  principle  of  Federal  numbers,  in  whatever  de- 
gree, be  introduced  into  both  Houses,  and  the  hardy  yeomanry  of  the  West  will  never 
be  satisfied.  They  can  never  consent  to  be  put  upon  a  footing,  in  the  apportionment 
of  political  power,  with  the  slave  who  moves  and  toils  at  the  command  of  his  master. 
They  will  not,  cannot,  dare  not  submit  to  it.  They  dare  not  so  degrade  themselves 
in  their  own  eyes — in  the  eyes  of  the  whole  world — even  in  the  eyes  of  their  brethren 
who  now  require  the  concession. 

And  here,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  must  notice  a  topic  of  the  gravest  character,  which  has 
been  several  times  brought  to  our  view,  by  Eastern  members,  in  the  course  of  debate. 
I  mean  a  separation  of  the  State — at  one  time  gently  insinuated — at  another  wrapt 
up  in  beautiful  rhetorical  language,  and  finally  expressed  in  what  has  been  emphati- 
cally called  plain  old  English.  1  am  not  disposed.  Sir,  to  regard  such  menaces,  be- 
cause I  am  aware  of  the  extremities  of  intellectual  warfare,  and  can  estimate  the  effer- 
vescence of  momentary  excitement.  They  would  not  be  iznpressed  upon  my  mind, 
but  for  a  corresponding  sentiment,  which  I  have  reason  to  believe,  prevails  amongst 
the  Western  people.  I  do  not  say  that  if  slave  Representation  should  be  forced  upon 
them,  they  will  raise  the  standard  of  rebellion,  or  in  any  wise  resist  the  constituted 
authorities.  Far  from  it.  But  within  the  pale  of  the  (Constitution  and  laws,  they  will 
carry  their  opposition  to  the  utmost  limit ;  and  the  members  of  this  Committee  can 
estimate  the  feelings  of  hostility  by  which  it  will  be  accompanied.  The  final  result 
will  be  a  separation  of  the  State.  No  one  can  doubt  that  if  such  an  event  should  be 
perse veringly,  though  peaceably  sought,  by  a  large  portion  of  the  State,  it  would  be 
ultimately  conceded. 

I  beg.  Sir,  to  be  distinctly  understood.  There  is  no  one  in  this  Committee,  to 
whom  the  idea  of  such  a  separation  is  more  abhorrent  than  myself.  I  believe  there 
is  no  man  here,  who  wishes  separation  for  its  own  sake,  or  who  could  contemplate  it 
for  a  moment,  except  as  a  refuge  from  greater  evils.  If  there  were  any  such  man,  I 
would  say  to  him,  in  the  language  of  an  immortal  bard, 

"  If  thou  do'st  consent 
To  this  most  cruel  act,  do  but  despah- ; 
And  if  thou  waut'st  a  cord,  the  smallest  tliread 
That  spider  ever  twisted  from  her  womb,  ■ 
Will  serve  to  strangle  thee." 

We  should  look  forward  to  such  a  calamity,  only  to  deprecate  and  avoid  it.  Surely, 
it  will  not — must  not  be.  Separate  Virginia!  Shall  she  be  shorn  of  her  strength, 
her  influence,  and  her  glory?  Shall  her  voice  of  command,  of  persuasion,  and  re- 
proof, be  no  longer  heard  in  the  National  Councils Shall  she  no  more  be  looked  up 
to  as  the  guide  of  the  strong,  the  guardian  of  the  weak,  and  the  protector  of  the  op- 
pressed.? Break  in  twain  the  most  precious  jewel,  and  the  separated  parts  are  com- 
paratively worthless.  Divide  Virginia,  and  both  the  East  and  the  West  will  sink  into 
insignificance,  neglect  and  contempt. 

I  rose,  Mr.  Chairman,  to  make  but  a  few  remarks,  and  have  detained  the  Committee 
longer  than  I  conteniplated.  I  am  thankful  for  the  indulgent  attention  with  which  I 
have  been  heard,  and  regret  my  inability  to  do  justice  to  the  subject.  I  would  to 
God,  that  for  this  single  occasion  only,  1  could  utter  my  feelings  in 

"  Thoughts  that  breathe,  and  words  that  burn." 

1  would  kindle  a  flame,  which  should  find  an  altar  in  every  heart,  which  should  burn 
to  ashes  the  prejudices  of  the  hour,  and  the  petty  interests  of  the  day,  and  throw  upon 
our  path  of  duty  a  strong  and  steady  light,  directing  us  forward  to  the  permanent 
welfare,  safety  and  honour  of  Virginia. 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


567 


Mr.  Leigh,  afler  noticing  some  of  Mr.  B's  statements,  went  on  to  reply  to  Mr. 
Johnson — and  complained,  that  they  were  constantly  called  upon  to  respect  the 
feelinffs  of  the  West,  and  to  make  a  Constitution  that  should  be  acceptable  to  the 
VVest,^but  nobody  seemed  to  consider  the  feelings  of  the  East  at  all,  or  to  care  whe- 
ther the  Constitution  was  acceptable  to  the  East  or  not.  If  gentlemen  asked  for  sym- 
pathy, let  them  shew  it — if  they  insisted,  that  their  theoretical  claims  should  be  con- 
sidered, let  the  practical  claims  of  the  East  be  considered  also.  He  insisted  on  the 
prejudices  which  vrould  assail  a  Senate  differently  constituted  from  the  House  of  De- 
legates— it  would  be  branded  in  its  very  birth  with  '•  Aristocracy"  upon  its  front — it 
would  be  sent  forth  with  the  cry  of  mad-dog,"  to  make  its  way  among  the  people. 
He  strongly  objected  to  the  interpretation  which  Mr.  Mercer  had  put  upon  Mr.  Madi- 
son's speech,  as  advising  the  Committee  to  accept,  by  way  of  compromise,  ditFerent 
bases  in  the  two  Houses.  Did  Mr.  M.  forget,  that  that  gentleman  had  twice.,  in  Com- 
mittee, voted  against  that  proposition  for  a  white  basis  in  the  House  of  Delegates  ? 
On  the  question  of  Federal  numbers,  they  had  enjoyed  the  happiness  and  honour  of 
receiving  his  vote.  He  diifered  from  Mv.  M.  entirely,  as  to  the  tenor  of  Mr.  Madi- 
son's speech  in  the  Committee,  and  stated  what  was  his  understanding  of  the  sub- 
stance of  it.  He  commented  with  severity  on  Mr.  M's  profession  of  filial  respect  for 
Mr.  Marshall,  accompanied  by  an  entire  disregard  of  that  gentleman's  advice,  and 
insisted  on  this  as  one  illustration  of  the  truth  of  his  own  remark,  that  in  this  country, 
sons  were  always  wiser  than  their  fathers.  From  whatever  other  quarter  the  spirit 
of  conciliation  had  proceeded,  he  never  expected  to  see  one  scintilla  of  it  from  him. 

Mr.  Mercer  replied,  that  he  had  not  intended  to  misrepresent  the  argument  of  Mr. 
Madison.  He  had  understood  that  gentleman  as  recommending  Federal  numbers,  only 
so  far  as  they  would  operate  as  a  protection  to  the  peculiar  property  of  the  East. 
With  regard  to  the  venerable  gentleman  from  E.iclimond,  he  had  had  the  happiness 
of  knowmg  him  for  thirty  years.  That  gentleman  was  his  friend  and  his  father's 
friend.  No  remarks  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  would,  he  trusted,  ever  be 
able  to  sever  that  bond  ;  and  he  cared  for  no  other  consequence  that  might  follow  them. 

Mr.  Johnson  said,  when  he  wished  to  allay  irritated  feelings,  he  had  found  that  the 
best  way  was  never  to  allude  to  them.  The  certain  effect  of  a  different  course,  was 
rather  to  exasperate  than  allay  the  irritation. 

In  reply  to  a  personal  appeal  of  -ilr.  Leigh  to  himself,  he  bore  testimony,  that  in 
his  opinion,  the  charge  of  aristocracy  brought  against  the  existing  Constitution,  was 
wholly  unfounded ;  but,  he  did  not  believe  with  Mr.  L.,  that  that  charge  had  been  the 
main  cause  of  calling  this  Convention.  It  had  been  used  indeed,  as  a  powerful  wea- 
pon in  the  hands  of  men,  who  felt  that  they  were  deprived  of  their  just  rights.  The 
cry  of  mad-dog  had  been  raised  against  the  present  Senate;  but,  they  had  survived 
the  cry,  and  had  had  the  pleasure  of  hearing  blessings  sung  by  the  same  lips.  The 
Senates  of  Massachusetts,  New  Hampshire,  and  of  the  United  States,  had  all  been 
quoted  in  this  very  light,  by  gentlemen  themselves ;  and  the  Senate  of  Maryland 
was  an  example  in  point,  to  shew  that  a  small  body  could  resist  with  firmness,  and 
maintain  the  stand  it  had  taken. 

In  reply  to  Mr.  M.  he  urged  this  consideration,  that  that  could  not  be  called  middle 
ground,  where  one  party  surrendered  all  they  had  been  contending  for.  to  the  other. 
Now,  the  West  had  for  eight  v.-eeks  been  contending,  to  secure  themselves  from  a 
system,  which  placed  the  power  of  the  State  in  the  hands  of  a.  rninoriti/ :  but,  the 
principle  of  that  gentleman's  compromise,  was  to  propose  a  principle  which  con- 
fessedly did  this  very  thing  in  both  branches  of  the  Legislature.  To  yield  this,  was 
to  yield  the  whole  they  had  been  contending  for.  The  West  had  set  out  with  con- 
tending, that  the  power  should  reside  with  tlie  majority  in  both  branches.  The  East 
contended,  that  it  should  remain  with  a  minority  in  both  branches.  If  the  mixed 
basis  should  be  adopted  in  both  Houses,  the  power  would  be  in  a  minority  in  both 
Houses.    Was  this  compromise Or,  was  it  not  complete  and  entire  surrender.' 

The  question  was  now  taken  on  Mr.  Johnson's  motion  to  strike  out,  and  the  votes 
stood — Ayes  43,  Noes  47.  The  Chair  voting  in  the  negative,  made  a  tie ;  and  so  the 
motion  was  negatived. 

So  the  Committee  refused  to  strike  out  the  word  Resolved,"  in  the  first  clause  of 
Mr.  Upshur's  proposition  for  compronuse,  thereby  leaving  it  open  for  amendments. 

[On  this  motion,  Mr.  Monroe  voted  Aye  :  Messrs.  Madison,  Marshall,  and  Plea- 
sants, No.] 

Mr.  Upshur,  with  a  view  to  test  the  sense  of  the  Committee  on  the  question,  whe- 
ther the  three  ratios  in  his  plan  should  be  retained,  or  only  two  of  them,  moved  to 
amend  the  proposition,  by  striking  therefirom  the  second  of  the  ratios,  viz  :  wliite 
population  and  taxation  combined." 

The  motion  prevailed,  and  the  words  were  stricken  out. 

Mr.  Upshur  moved  a  further  amendment,  changing  the  number  of  Senators  from 
*•  thirty"'  to  "  thirty-two." 

Tills  motion  prevailed — Ayes  53. 


568 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


[Messrs.  Madison,  Monroe,  Marshall  and  Giles,  Aye.] 

Mr,  Powell  said,  that  since  the  question  of  the  basis  seemed  now  decided,  there 
could  be  no  reason  for  extending  the  number  of  the  Senate ;  and  he  therefore  moved 
to  amend,  by  striking  out  "  thirty-two,"  and  inserting  "  twenty-four." 

The  question  being  taken,  the  motion  was  negatived — Ayes  4G,  Noes  48. 

[Mr.  Madison,  Aye  :  Messrs.  Monroe,  Marshall  and  Giles,  No.] 

Mr.  Scott,  considering  it  impossible  at  present  to  fix  on  any  permanent  future  prin- 
ciple of  apportionment,  which  would  be  generally  acceptable,  moved  to  strike  out  the 
third  clause  of  Mr.  Upshur's  proposition. 

The  motion  was  opposed  by  Messrs.  Cooke  and  Upshur,  as  going  to  undo  all  that 
had  been  done,  and  lead  only  to  the  call  of  a  new  Convention.  If  the  principle  was 
fair  now,  it  would  be  as  fair  always.  To  destroy  its  permanence,  would  be  to  impair 
the  ground  of  compromise. 

Mr.  Scott  said,  from  the  equal  vote  in  striking  out  Mr.  Upshxir's  proposition,  it  was 
plain  that  the  scheme,  in  its  present  form,  was  not  acceptable  to  a  majority  of  the 
House.  He  had  made  the  motion,  expecting  that  some  gentleman  would  substitute 
another  scheme  of  future  apportionment. 

The  question  being  taken,  it  was  negatived — Ayes  31,  Noes  not  counted. 

Mr.  Mercer  now  moved  to  amend  Mr.  Upshur's  proposition,  by  substituting  the 
following: 

"  Representation  in  the  Senate  shall  be  based  on  the  whole  number  of  free  persons, 
including  those  bound  to  service  for  a  term  of  years,  and  excluding  indians  not  taxed, 
and  adding  to  the  aforesaid  number  of  free  persons,  three-fifths  of  all  other  persons  : 
and  the  Senate  shall  consist  of  a  number  not  exceeding  ,  and  its  term  of  service 
and  classification  remain  as  at  present." 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  the  same  question  had  in  substance  been  decided  already.  He 
called  upon  all  who  were  in  favour  of  seeing  the  two  Houses  harmonious  in  their 
organization,  to  oppose  the  amendment. 

Mr.  Powell  asked  tlie  mover,  if  this  was  not  word  for  word  the  same  proposition 
once  moved  by  the  gentleman  from  Goochland,  (Mr.  Pleasants  ?) 

Mr.  Mercer  replied  in  the  affirmative. 

After  some  conversation  as  to  the  effect  of  the  motion  between  Messrs,  Mercer, 
P.  P,  Barbour,  Johnson  and  Leigh, 

Mr.  Pleasants  announced  his  determination  to  vote  against  the  amendment.  He 
adverted  to  his  peculiar  situation  (in  relation  to  his  district,)  and  went  into  a  history 
of  the  course  of  the  debate,  and  then  declared  his  preference  to  the  plan  of  county 
Representation.  If  he  could  get  such  a  plan,  graduated  to  suit  his  views  of  propriety, 
he  would  vote  for  it.  He  did  not  hold  himself  bound  by  any  former  vote,  and  had  so 
stated  at  the  time.  Could  a  good  system  of  county  Representation  be  engrafted  in 
the  proposition  he  had  formerly  oflfered,  and  which  was  now  offered  by  Mr.  Mercer, 
he  would  support  it.  He  did  not  fully  know  the  sentiments  of  his  constituents^ — and 
he  believed  his  course  would,  in  these  circumstances,  be  approved. 

Mr.  Mercer  disclaimed  any  intention  of  involving  the  gentleman  in  any  difficulty. 

Mr.  P.  said,  he  did  not  believe  the  gentleman  could  involve  him  in  any  difficulty 
whatever — He  had  no  fears  on  that  score. 

Mr.  Mercer  explained  the  reasons  at  some  length,  which  had  induced  him  to  move 
the  amendment.  The  Committee  had  arrived  at  that  point,  when  such  a  question 
ought  to  be  prescribed.  They  had  got  to  the  end  of  one  path — he  now  presented  to 
them  another.  He  expressed  his  hope  of  Mr.  Marshall's  vote,  after  what  had  fallen 
from  him  in  relation  to  it.  He  had  hoped  for  the  gentleman's  from  Goochland  also, 
which  would  have  made  the  vote  stand  50  to  46.  The  proposition  of  Mr.  Upshur  was 
for  a  county  Representation,  and  the  amendment  had  no  other  in  view.  He  hoped, 
therefore,  for  the  vote  of  Mr.  Pleasants. 

Mr.  Gordon  moved  to  amend  Mr.  Mercer's  amendment. 

Mr.  Johnson  moved,  that  the  Committee  rise.  The  motion  was  negatived — Ayes 
42,  Noes  50. 

Mr.  Johnson  suggested  to  Mr.  Mercer  the  propriety  of  withdrawing  his  amend- 
ment. Let  Mr.  Upshur's  be  first  modified  and  amended  by  its  friends.  It  was  not 
proper  to  press  the  gentleman  from  Goochland,  under  his  present  circumstances. 

Mr.  Mercer  consented  to  withdraw  it. 

Mr.  Leigh  said  it  was  manifest,  gentlemen  thought  that  by  holding  out,  some  of 
their  side  would  go  over. 

Mr.  Johnson  distinctly  avowed  that  to  be  the  ground  on  which  he  suggested  the 
delay. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  this  would  shew  gentlemen  what  effect  their  supposed  pledge  had 
had.  He  knew,  that  those  gentlemen  would  not  be  influenced  by  any  thing  he  could 
say,  but  would  act  for  themselves. 

He  then  moved,  that  the  Committee  rise :  the  motion  prevailed  :  (it  was  now  near 
4  o'clock.)    The  Committee  then  rose,  and  thereupon  the  House  adjourned. 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


569 


SATURDAY,  December  5,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Parks,  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

Mr.  Gordon  moved,  that  when  the  Convention  adjourned,  it  adjourn  to  meet  on 
Monday  at  1  o'clock. 

The  motion  gave  rise  to  desultory  conversation  on  the  subject  of  a  place  of  meeting 
for  the  Convention,  which  resulted  in  a  refusal  to  take  up  the  report  of  the  Committee 
on  that  subject,  and  an  agreement  to  meet  on  Monday  at  2  o'clock,  (allowing  time  for 
the  Legislature  to  convene  and  get  through  its  morning  business.) 

The  Convention  then  went  again  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour 
in  the  Chair. 

And  the  question  being  on  Mr.  Gordon's  amendment  to  the  resolution  of  Mr. 
Upshur, 

Mr.  Gordon  modified  it,  so  as  to  read  as  follows: 

"  Resolved,  That  the  representation  of  the  Senate  and  House  of  Delegates  of  Vir- 
ginia, shall  be  apportioned  as  follows  : 

"  There  shall  be  thirteen  Senators  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge  of  Mountains,  and  nine- 
teen East  of  those  Mountains. 

"  There  shall  be  in  the  House  of  Delegates  one  hundred  and  twenty-seven  mem- 
bers, of  whom  twenty-nine  shall  be  elected  from  the  district  West  of  the  Alleghany 
Mountains;  twenty-four  from  the  Valley  between  the  Alleghany  and  Blue  Ridge; 
forty  from  the  Blue  Ridge  to  the  head  uf  Tide-water,  and  thirty-four  thence  below." 

Mr.  Powell  gave  notice,  that  in  case  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Gordon  should  be  re- 
jected, he  would  offer  another,  which  he  read,  and  which  went,  in  substance,  to  give 
to  the  Senate  the  power  to  amend  revenue  bills ;  with  a  proviso,  that  in  case  of  a  dis- 
agreement between  the  two  Houses  on  such  a  bill,  the  revenue,  as  enacted  for  the 
previous  year,  should  continue. 

Mr.  Morris  said,  that  this  long,  and  to  many,  wearisome  discussion,  must  have  con- 
vinced all  of  one  fact,  a  fact  so  evident,  that  none  could  shut  their  eyes  against  it; 
that,  however  anxious  the  Committee  might  be  so  to  apportion  the  future  representa- 
tion of  the  State  as  to  put  an  end  to  the  confessed  inequality  which  now  existed,  no 
general  principle  that  could  be  proposed,  would  obtain  the  vote  of  such  a  majority  as 
that  it  might  be  carried  with  any  confidence  to  their  constituents.  Yet  all  were 
agreed,  that  the  obtaining  of  this  object  formed  one  of  the  leading  causes,  which  had 
led  to  the  call  of  this  Convention  :  it  was  certainly  one  of  the  prime  considerations, 
which  had  induced  the  people  to  vote  in  its  favour.  He  professed  himself  desirous 
to  establish  some  rule,  on  this  subject,  which  might  apply  not  merely  to  the  present 
moment,  but  to  all  future  time:  but  he  was  satisfied,  that,  situated  as  the  Convention 
now  was,  no  permanent  arrangement,  looking  to  futurity,  could  be  agreed  upon.  But 
the  hopelessness  of  this  was  no  reason  why  some  present  arrangement  ought  not  to 
be  made.  If  they  could  not  do  all  the  good  they  desired,  let  them  do  all  that  was  in 
their  power.  The  result  of  the  calculations  on  both  sides  shewed,  that  a  Hoxise  of 
Delegates  constructed  on  the  principle  of  qualified  voters,  and  one  on  the  compound 
basis  of  population  and  property,  would  not  differ  by  more  than  three,  perhaps  only 
by  two  members.  As  to  the  objection  that  unless  some  permanent  rule  of  apportion- 
ment should  be  settled,  discontent  would  again  arise  and  a  new  Convention  be  called, 
he  thought  the  experience  the  people  had  had  on  the  present  occasion  was  a  pretty 
good  security  against  any  speedy  resort  to  that  expedient.  But,  if  such  Convention 
was  to  assemble,  the  future  rule  of  apportionment  might  be  lefl  to  them.  Yet,  he 
was  willing  to  lend  his  aid  in  the  effort  to  fix  it  now.  His  own  preference  was  for 
the  Federal  number  as  a  just  medium  between  the  ratios  of  population  and  taxation. 
He  repelled  the  charge  of  aristocracy  made  against  this  arrangement,  by  appealing  to 
the  principles  and  virtues  of  the  founders  of  the  Constitution,  and  the  three  venerable 
men,  (two  of  whom  had  fought  in  defence  of  liberty,)  who  had  given  it  their  sanc- 
tion on  the  present  occasion.  He  never  could  be  made  to  believe  that  such  men 
were  the  friends  of  aristocracy.  But,  if  the  time  for  carrying  such  a  principle  as  the 
basis  of  both  Houses  was  past,  still  he  was  in  favour  of  doing  what  might  allay  dis- 
contents for  the  present.  He  was  utterly  opposed  to  basing  the  two  Houses  on  dif- 
ferent ratios  of  representation,  as  leading  to  discord  and  providing  opposite  and  con- 
flicting influences  which  must  forever  keep  the  vessel  of  State  from  the  harbour  of 
the  public  good.  He  had  no  belief  in  the  doctrines  so  commonly  maintained  by  wri- 
ters, and  advocated  here,  of  the  efficacy  of  checks  and  balances.  In  a  Government 
like  that  of  Great  Britain,  where  the  source  of  power  was  not  in  the  people,  but  in  a 
monarch,  claiming  it  by  divine  right  and  hereditary  descent,  they  might  be  necessary 
and  were  certainly  operative;  but  in  a  Government  like  ours,  none  of  the  arguments 
in  their  favour  applied.  The  true  check  here  was  the  distribution  of  power  into 
many  hands.  This  principle  would  be  met  by  placing  the  power  of  Legislation  in 
two  different  branches — without  making  the  two  Houses  antagonists.    The  Consti- 

72 


570 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


tution  provided  a  Legislative,  Executive  and  Judicial  Department,  not  that  they  might 
oppose  each  other,  but  act  in  harmony.  It  v^^as  not  the  duty  of  the  Executive  to  op- 
pose the  execution  of  the  Legislative  will,  but  to  comply  with  it:  nor  was  it  the  ex- 
cellence of  the  Judiciary  to  give  an  interpretation  to  the  laws,  opposite  to  the  purpose 
for  which  they  were  enacted,  but  conformable  to  it.  In  support  of  the  general  views 
he  had  given,  he  referred  to  the  authority  of  the  late  Mr.  Taylor  of  Caroline.  He 
appealed  also  to  what  Mr.  Johnson  had  admitted  on  the  subject  of  a  want  of  harmo- 
nious action  between  the  two  branches  of  the  Legislature,  constituted  in  so  different 
a  manner  as  was  proposed,  and  his  personal  preference  of  Mr.  Upshur's  plan  of  com- 
promise to  that  of  Mr.  Cooke.  He  concluded  by  expressing  his  determination  to 
vote  for  Mr.  Gordon's  amendment,  reserving  himself  as  to  its  details,  which  he  had 
not  examined. 

Mr.  Stanard  expressed  his  view  of  the  proposition  to  be  the  same,  with  that  just  ex- 
pressed, and  his  determination  to  vote  for  it.  It  corresponded  with  a  proposition  men- 
tioned by  himself  to  the  Committee  three  weeks  since.  He  did  not  mean  to  pledge 
himself  to  all  the  details,  in  which  he  thought  there  were  some  errors;  but  he  Mashed 
to  take  this  step  to  remove  existing  difficulties,  and  if  nothing  more  could  be  done, 
leave  the  future  apportionment  to  be  settled  hereafter. 

Mr.  Cooke  rose  to  compare  the  details  of  the  two  plans  now  before  the  Committee, 
viz  :  the  schemes  of  Messrs.  Upshur  and  Gordon.    According  to  these  plans. 
By  Mr.  Gordon's,  Senate  of  32,  13  West,    19  East. 

Mr.  Upshur's     do.  _  14  18 

Here  is  a  difference  in  favour  of  the  West,  of  l-3d  part  of  the  whole  Senate. 
By  Mr.  Gordon's  House  of  Delegates,  of  120,  50  West,    70  EasL 

Mr.  Upshur's  do  48  72 

Thus  the  plan  of  Mr.  Gordon  is  preferable  to  that  of  Mr.  Upshur,  one-sixth }  thus 
in  the  two  Houses,  the  difference  between  the  two  plans  is  very  inconsiderable.  But 
in  another  respect  there  is  a  very  important  difference.  That  of  Mr.  U.  contains  a 
principle  of  future  apportionment,  a  principle  of  vitality  and  self-preservation,  which 
Mr.  G's  entirely  wants.  He  would  therefore  say  it  with  all  due  respect,  that  Mr. 
G's  was  a  mere  shift  and  temporary  expedient,  to  get  clear  of  present  embarrass- 
ments. Much  as  he  desired  to  support  any  plan  which  came  from  that  quarter — from 
a  gentleman  to  whom  he  had  been  so  much  indebted  as  a  faithful  friend  of  reform — 
yet  he  could  not  support  a  plan  which  settled  no  principle,  and  was  merely  a  tempo- 
rary patch- work  of  a  Constitution,  to  be  torn  to  pieces  some  five  or  seven  years  hence 
by  the  agitators  and  Jacobins  of  that  day  :  and  this,  he  said,  was  with  him  a  vital  ob- 
jection, and  such  a  one  as  would  induce  the  people  of  the  West,  to  a  man,  to  reject 
any  such  Constitution. 

Mr.  Gordon  was  sorry  to  hear  the  gentleman  from  Frederick  apply  the  word 
"  shift,"  to  his  proposition,  though  from  the  expression  of  personal  kindness  to  him- 
self aftervv^ards,  he  did  not  suppose  the  gentleman  meant  it  in  an  offensive  sense. 
[Mr.  Cooke  said,  certahily  not.']  Mr.  Gordon  w^ent  on  to  say,  that  he  had  sat  a  silent 
spectator  of  the  debates  on  this  question,  but  it  seemed  to  be  evident  that  the  Con- 
vention could  not  agree  upon  any  future  apportionment.  What  then  were  we  to  do  ? 
Sit  here  in  equilihrio,  doing  nothing — or  shall  we  return  home,  with  a  blank  piece  of 
paper.''  He  had  considered  this  subject  well:  he  was  for  repoising  the  Constitution 
upon  its  ancient  foundations — for  redressing  the  inequalities  of  the  representation — 
and  leaving  it  to  the  aged  and  the  wise  men  of  the  land  to  arrange  some  other  Con- 
stitution. But  he  could  not  consent  to  sit  here,  waiting  till  some  scheme  should  be 
supported  by  one  or  two  votes  thrown  into  the  scale,  and  making  a  meagre  majority; 
then  sending  out  a  Constitution,  so  made,  and  carrying  discord  and  confusion  among 
the  good  people  of  Virginia.  But,  if  gentlemen  on  both  sides  could  agree  on  any 
future  apportionment,  by  a  large  majority,  he  for  one  would  be  most  happy  to  sup- 
port it. 

Mr.  Upshur  briefly  stated  the  reasons  v^^hy  he  should  vote  for  the  amendment  of 
Mr.  Gordon.  The  distribution  of  power  for  the  jjrescnt,  was  nearly  the  same  as  that 
in  his  own  proposition,  and  would  at  all  events,  disembarrass  the  subject  of  many 
difficulties.  As  to  the  question  of  future  apportionment,  the  adoption  of  the  amend- 
ment would  not  preclude  any  arrangements  for  that  object,  and  he  declared  it  to  be 
his  intention,  should  the  proposition  carry,  to  move  as  an  amendment,  the  same  pro- 
vision for  future  apportionment,  as  had  formed  a  part  of  his  own  scheme. 

Mr.  Doddridge  now  moved  as  ari  amendment  to  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Gordon  the 
follov/ing  substitute  : 

After  the  next  Census  to  be  taken  under  the  laws  of  the  United  States,  and  once, 
at  least,  in  every  ten  years  thereafter,  there  shall  be  a  new  apportionment  of  Repre- 
sentation in  the  House  of  Delegates,  on  the  basis  of  white  population,  and  in  the 
Senate  on  that  of  the  Federal  number — and  all  future  enumerations  for  the  purposes 
of  apportionment,  may  be  made,  either  under  the  laws  of  this  State,  or  those  of  the 
United  States,  at  the  discretion  of  the  General  Assembly.    And  whenever  a  new  ap- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


571 


portionment  of  Ptepresentation  shall  be  made,  there  shall  be  a  new  assessment  of  taxes 
in  the  State." 

In  giving  his  reasons  for  moving  this  substitute,  Mr.  Doddridge  said,  that  his  assent 
to  the  Federal  number  as  a  basis  for  the  Senate,  was  given  on  the  hypothesis  that  the 
white  basis  should  be  adopted  for  the  House  of  Delegates.  This  v/as  the  last  step  he 
could  take  with  a  view  to  compromise. 

His  objection  to  the  scheme  of  Mr.  Gordon  arose  from  its  containing  no  plan  for 
any  future  apportionment  of  Representation.  Unless  they  could  agree  to  a  Constitu- 
tion which  should  cause  Representation  to  graduate  itself  a.ccording  to  some  just  prin- 
ciple mutually  agreed  upon,  they  had  better  do  nothing  at  all:  a  Constitution  with- 
out this  feature  would  create  more  dissatisfaction  than  existed  at  present.  He  Vv'as 
fully  confident  that  tlie  West  would  accept  nothing  short  of  the  white  basis  in  the 
House  of  Delegates  at  least :  he  believed  they  might  consent  with  some  unanimity  to 
that  as  a  compromise.  He  declared  for  himself,  and  for  himself  alone,  that  he  should 
determine  between  this  day  and  Tuesday  next,  whether  he  could  farther  serve  his  con- 
stituents by  remaining  here  any  longer. 

Mr.  Leigh  rose  to  express  his  sense  of  what  v/as  the  true  amount  of  Mr.  Dod- 
dridge's amendment,  Mr.  Gordon's  plan  of  distributing  the  Representation  was  based 
substantially  on  the  white  population  as  exhibited  by  the  Census  of  lc20 — though  not 
actually  so  in  all  the  details,  but  throwing  fractions  out  of  view,  it  is  in  fact  the  basis 
of  Vvhite  population  according  to  that  Census.  iNow,  said  Mr.  L.  the  gentleman 
from  Brooke  taking  the  Census  of  lb.20,  and  having  respect  to  the  white  population 
exclusively,  demands  that  this  shall  be  established  as  a  rule  for  all  future  time,  as 
the  basis  of  the  House  of  Delegates.  It  is,  therefore,  precisely  the  same  question  we 
have  been  discussing  for  so  long  a  time;  it  is  brought  forward  again,  and  will,  I  sup- 
pose, be  repeated  until  the  repetition  shall  be  considered  hopeless  ;  and  then,  the  gen- 
tleman tells  us,  he  shall  dptermine  whether  to  go  home  or  not.  Are  we  to  understand 
this  as  a  menace,  that  the  Western  members  vrill  secede  in  a  body.?  Such  an  idea 
lias  been  suggested  out  of  doors — are  we  to  understand  it  as  nov,-  threatened  here.'' 

Mr.  Doddridge  (looking  towards  the  reporter.)  I  hope  my  words  will  be  remem- 
bered: — I  said  that  speaking  for  myself,  and  myself  alonf.,1  should  determine  whether 
I  could  be  of  any  farther  service  to  my  constituents  by  remaining  longer  here. 

Mr.  Leigh.  If  the  gentleman  shall  secede,  himself,  alone,  why  ihen  w^q  shall  carry 
our  proposition.  I  am  not  now  to  understand  him  as  threatening  a  secession  of  the 
West.  If  w^e  are  to  remain  together,  then  the  gentleman  is  to  be  understood  as  say- 
ing that  they  will stand  firm,"  and  not  advance  another  step. 

Let  me  address  one  word  to  the  Representatives  of  my  Y/estern  fellow-citizens  (for 
they  are  my  fellow-citizens,  and  it  is  my  wish  tiaat  they  m.ay  long  remain  so:)  all  we 
ask  is  a  Representation  of  those  interests  which  we  hold  and  which  they  do  not :  but  if 
there  is  to  be  the  smallest  infusion  of  such  a  principle,  then  they  say  that  the  West 
will  not  adopt  such  a  system.  What  does  this  prove  ?  That  their  attachment  to  us 
is  not  equal  to  that  of  the  Northern  States  toward  then*  Southern  brethren  :  they  do 
not  feel  any  thing  like  so  warm  a  regard  to  a  union  with  us,  as  the  States  of  the 
North  did  to  a  union  with  those  of  the  South.  For,  what  is  the  fact  ?  When  the  Con- 
stitution of  the  United  States  was  adopted,  this  very  conflict  took  place  :  the  same 
claim  was  advanced  by  the  South  as  is  novv^  advanced  by  us,  and  it  met  the  same  ob- 
jections as  are  now  urged  by  the  gentlemen  from  the  West. 

The  Federal  Convention  recommended  a  compromise.  The  great  objection  was, 
that  the  proposed  Constitution  gave  too  much  to  the  South:  yet  their  attachment  to 
their  Southern  fellow-citizens  overcame  all  objections,  and  the  compromise  was  ac- 
cepted. But  here,  in  Virginia,  we  are  told  that  their  attachment  to  us  is  so  feeble, 
and  their  concern  for  union  so  small,  that  they  are  willing  to  sacrifice  all  for  a  mere 
theoretical  opinion.  Are  we  to  take  this  as  their  idtimatuiu  ?  Are  we  to  understand 
that  unless  we  give  them,  and  give  them  immediatel}',  complete  povrer  over  our  per- 
sons and  property,  they  wish  no  farther  connexion  v/ith  us.''  -I  can  understand  it  in 
no  other  way.  To  me  it  is  most  painful  to  hear  such  language.  They  will  give  up 
all  connexion  with  us,  unless  we  yield  them  all  that  they  ask. 

Mr.  Doddridge  replied.  We  have  long  ago  had  the  idtimatum  of  the  gentleman 
from  Chesterfield,  (Mr.  Leigh.)  and  a  few  days  since  we  had  the  uUimatujii  of  the 
gentleman  from  Charlotte,  (Mr.  Randolph.)  They  have  both  announced  to  us  that 
they  never  will  yield  us  the  white  basis  in  the  House  of  Delegates. 

[Mr.  Randolph  here  said,  the  gentleman  is  perfectly  right — perfectly  right — we 
never  will.]  I  thought  I  was  not  mistaken.  Well,  then,  I  now  say  that  I  can  go  no 
farther.  This  is  my  ultinuitum.  If  neither  of  us  is  to  3'ield,  future  discussion  can 
end  in  no  good  result.  They  wull  re-organize  the  Assembly,  and  apportion  the  Re- 
presentation of  the  East  and  the  West  differently  from  what  it  now  is ;  but  they  will 
still  leave  the  West  to  be  effectually  and  absolutely  governed  by  the  East,  and  they 
will  engraft  no  provision  to  meet  our  future  growth  in  population.  I  now  address  my- 
self to  the  Representatives  of  the  West,  and  I  say  to  them — we  have  now,  in  a  House 


572 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


of  two  hundred  and  fourteen,  eiglity  Delegates.  The  total  white  population  of  the 
State  being-  632,000,  and  the  West  containing  319,000  of  that  number,  it  is  entitled, 
on  equitable  principles,  to  one  hundred  Delegates.  We  now,  therefore,  lose  twenty  of 
our  fair  proportion  of  Representation.  But  what  shall  we  lose,  if  these  propositions 
succeed  ?  According  to  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  (Mr.  Leigh,) 
we  are  to  lose  twenty-eight :  according  to  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Northampton, 
(Mr.  Upshur)  we  are  to  lose  twenty-four :  and  according  to  that  of  the  gentleman 
tirom  Albemarle  (Mr.  Gordon)  we  are  to  lose  twenty-one.  We  ought  to  have  more 
Representation  than  we  have  now  :  this  is  our  grievance  :  and  do  they  remedy  it  1  No. 
Not  at  all ;  they  increase  it.  They  now  control  us,  and  they  are  to  continue  to  con- 
trol us,  unless  the  force  of  public  opinion  shall  call  another  Convention.  There  is  no 
hope  for  us,  unless  we  settle  the  matter  now.  There  can  be  no  need  of  protracting 
the  discussion,  unless  the  principle  of  a  white  basis  of  Representation  is  to  be  allowed 
us.  If  the  Convention  rises,  we  shall  be  but  where  we  were  before  it  sat.  The  ine- 
quality of  which  we  have  hitherto  complained,  has  been  the  effect  of  circumstances : 
it  has  been  induced  by  time,  and  the  natural  progress  of  our  population  and  improve- 
ment :  but  if  the  grievance  is  to  be  fixed  by  the  vote  of  a  majority  here,  it  will  be  no 
longer  the  effect  of  time,  but  it  will  be  the  deliberate  act  and  deed  of  our  brethren  of 
the  East;  and  it  will  be,  therefore,  more  irritating,  and  more  intolerable.  Procrasti- 
nating our  discussions  can  serve  only  to  sharpen  our  own  animosities  and  aggravate 
the  discontent  of  the  people.  It  must  be  so.  The  public  uneasiness  is  aggravated 
with  every  week's  deliberation  of  this  body.  If  we  can't  agree,  we  can't  agree  : — 
and  there  is  an  end  of  the  matter.  I  believe  the  people  of  the  West,  generally,  will 
stop  at  the  point  I  mentioned  :  such  is  certainly  my  own  determination:  and,  I  be- 
lieve, I  have  just  the  same  right  to  announce  it,  as  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield, 
or  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte  had  to  announce  theirs, 

Mr.  Scott  said,  that  the  compromise  of  Mr.  Gordon  amounted  very  nearly  to  allow- 
ing the  principle  of  the  white  basis  according  to  the  Census  of  1820 :  future  appor- 
tionment might  be  provided  for  in  an  amendment ;  but  if  none  should  be  agreed  upon, 
it  may  be  important  that  the  principles  on  which  it  rests  should  be  known,  that  it 
may  not  be  drawn  into  precedent  hereafter.  It  rested  on  neither  one  of  the  disputed 
principles  :  it  was  founded  neither  on  the  white  basis,  the  mixed  basis,  or  the  Federal 
number.  If  the  great  question  of  fut  ure  apportionment  should  not  finally  be  settled, 
it  was  not  their  fault :  they  had  offered  to  meet  the  West  half  way,  and  the  offer  was 
refused :  he  should  not  now  be  inclined  to  go  quite  so  far. 

Mr.  Powell  rose  distinctly  to  disclaim,  for  himself,  and  on  behalf  of  his  Western 
friends,  the  imputation  cast  upon  them  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  who  had 
said  that  the  question  now  was,  whether  they  meant  to  divide  the  State  if  the  princi- 
ples of  the  Eastern  portion  of  it  should  be  forced  upon  them? 

Mr.  Leigh  explained.    lie  had  asked,  if  that  was  to  be  understood  as  the  question. 

Mr.  Powell  said,  the  gentleman  had  indeed  put  it  as  a  question;  but  it  was  a  preg- 
nant question,  and  carried  the  intimation  that  such  was  their  purpose.  He  now  ex- 
pressly disclaimed  any  such  ulterior  view.  If  gentlemen  would  force  a  mixed  basis 
upon  them,  it  would  be  against  his  consent,  and  against  every  wish  and  feeling  of  his 
constituents ;  they  would  reject  such  a  Constitution  if  they  could  :  but  the}^  cherished 
no  purpose  of  division.  But  in  that  event,  the  table  of  the  Legislature  would  groan 
under  the  mass  of  petitions  for  redress  which  would  be  presented  to  it.  This  would 
be  the  result  of  adopting  the  measure  now  proposed.  Mr.  P.  said  he  should  go  home, 
and  so  far  from  preaching  separation,  he  should  use  his  utmost  efforts  to  preserve 
union:  but  wherever  he  could  make  his  voice  to  be  heard,  he  should  urge  the  people 
indignantly  to  reject  a  form  of  Government  which  did  them  such  gross  injustice. 
Give  us  in  the  House  the  basis  we  ask,  and  we  will  give  you  in  the  Senate  that 
wliich  you  demand.  We  shall  then  hail  the  moment,  (the  first  in  fifty  years,)  that  we 
enjoy  our  just  rights.  Mr.  P.  then  adverted  to  Mr.  Johnson's  reply  to  the  Chief  Jus- 
tice, and  insisted  that  his  argument  had  not  been  answered  and  never  would  be.  To 
meet  the  suggestion  of  Mr.  Leigh  respecting  a  struggle  between  the  two  Houses  re- 
specting money  bills,  Mr.  P.  had  prepared  an  amendment,  which  would  prevent  the 
Lower  House  from  being  ever  able  to  stop  the  wheels  of  Government  by  refusing  to 
send  up  revenue  bills. 

Mr.  Randolph  begged  pardon  of  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier,  (Mr.  Scott)  for 
whose  sound,  manly,  practical  good  sense  he  had  the  very  highest  respect,  for  sug- 
gesting that  he  had  really  understated  their  case.  The  true  medium  between  the  claims 
of  the  two  sides  of  the  Plouse,  was  not  that  A'hich  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier  had 
stated;  but  it  was  the  Federal  number.  That  was  the  half- way-house.  But  now 
they  had  agreed  to  meet  not  there,  not  at  the  half-way-house,  but  at  a  middle  point 
between  the  half-way-house,  and  the  extreme  West.  This  was  in  reality  giving  up, 
not  jifiy  per  cent,  of  their  claim,  but  seventy-Jive  per  cent,  of  it.  Instead  of  taking  a 
middle  point  between  the  half- way-house  and  their  own  end  of  the  road,  they  took 
one  between  the  half-way-house  and  the  ivestern  termination  of  it.    They  were  not 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CON'TEXTIOX. 


573 


insisting  on  seventy-fire  per  cent,  of  their  claim,  but  had  consented  to  take  twenty- 
five  per  cent,  of  it<    He  had  risen  to  put  the  matter  on  its  proper  foot. 

One  word  more,  and  he  would  resume  his  seat.  The  reason  why  the  argument  of 
the  friend  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  he  meant  the  gentleman  from  Augusta, 
(Mr.  Johnson)  ha^  not  been  answered  was.  that  all  he  said  had  been  anticipated. 
The  statement  of  the  argument  by  the  gentleman  from  Richmond,  the  Chief  Justice 
of  the  United  States,  (Mr.  Marshall.)  had  been  such,  as  to  put  at  defiance  all  that  gen- 
tleman had  said,  or,  all  that  any  man  on  earth  could  say.  Where  was  the  necessity 
of  defending  the  fortress  of  Gibraltar,  against  the  abortive  and  puny  attacks  of  the 
gentleman  from  Augusta?  The  Chief  Justice  had  put  the  argument  on  ground 
which  never  could  be  shaken;  and  which  had  no  more  been  impugned,  than  the  for- 
tress of  Gibraltar  could  be  afi'ected  by  attacking  it  with  a  pocket  pistol.  He  had  put 
it  in  a  licfht — he  did  not  mean  any  compliment — in  which  he  put  every  thing  that  he 
attempted  to  place  in  a  clear  light.  He  had  shewn  that  the  weak  and  helpless  Go- 
vernment proposed  in  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  frum  Frederick  was  not  what  it  was 
represented  to  be,  and  had  shewn  them  what  was  a  compromise.  The  gentleman 
from  Brooke  (Mr.  Doddridge,)  had  stated  him  to  have  said,  that  he  never  would  be 
satisfied,  with  what  was  technically  called  the  white  basis  in  the  House  of  Delegates. 
He  never  could:  he  never  would:  the  gentleman's  constituents  were  not  more  Inter- 
ested in  the  question  than  his  were ;.  and  he  saw  no  reason  why  his  own  constituents 
were  to  give  up  any  more  than  those  of  tlie  gentleman,  (and  he  did  not  pretend  that 
they  were  bound  to  do  so.)  Tliis  was  not  a  compromise  on  any  just  principle  :  it  was 
one  in  which  the  West  took  the  Lion's  share,  and  left  to  them  of  the  East,  as  if  they 
had  been  a  parcel  of  Jackalls,  the  refuse  and  off'als  of  power. 

Mr.  Johnson  expressed  his  regret,  that  Mr.  Upshur's  proposition  had  not  been  finally 
disposed  of  before  that  of  Mr.  Gordon's  had  been  brought  before  the  Committee.  He 
should  have  thought  it  desirable,  that  2vlr.  Upshur's  should  first  have  been  made  as 
perfect  as  possible,  before  a  substitute  was  received.  Other  gentlemen,  however, 
who  acted  with  him,  had  not  thought  this  'he  better  course,  and  he  had  acquiesced. 
He  did  not  rise  for  the  purpose  of  vindicating  the  argument  he  had  formerly  used  from 
the  remarks  of  the  gentleman  firom  Charlotte,  or  to  prove  that  it  possessed  a  strength 
which  it  did  not :  far  less  had  he  intended  to  represent  himself  as  in  any  respect,  or°oa 
amy  occasion,  pretending  to  be  equal  to  the  Chief  Justice:  it  needed  no  ghost  (bowing 
toward  ^vlr.  Randolph)  to  inform  the  Committee  of  their  inequahty. 

Ish.  Randolph  said,  he  had  not  distinctly  heard  the  gentleman's  words:  but  if  they 
contained  any  ghostly  advice,  he  was  thankful  for  it,  as  coming  from  so  reverend  a  quar- 
ter. But  he  could  assure  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  that  whatever  he  might  sup- 
pose, he  (Mr.  J.)  was  the  last  man  in  tliat  committee,  against  whom  he  entertained 
the  least  possible  degree  of  personal  feeling.  His  hostility  toward  that  gentleman  was 
political  only;  but  he  must  be  permitted  to  add,  that  there  had  been  nothing  in  the 
o-entleman's  career,  during  the  present  Convention,  to  induce  any  man,  however  hum- 
ble his  condition,  to  regard  him  as  an  object  of  envy. 

Mr.  Johnson  said,  in  reply,  that  he  had  never  been,  he  believed,  an  object  of  envy 
to  any  one,  most  certainly  not  to  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte;  for,  said  Mr.  J.,  we 
cannot  envy  any  tiling  while  we  think  there  is  nothing  superior  to  us.  Yet,  I  cannot 
take  my  seat  without  returning  to  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte  my  thanks  for  the 
assurance  that  he  cherishes  toward  me  personally,  no  ill  feeling.  [Mr.  R.  None  in 
the  world.]  If  that  gentleman  had  known  how  entirely  devoid  my  heart  was  from 
such  a  feelinof  when  he  took  Iris  seat  in  this  Convention,  I  should  have  hoped  the  oc- 
casion for  this  seeming  colhsion  might  have  been  avoided. 

Mr.  Madisox  now  rose,  and  the  members  were  gathering  around  Mm  as  when  he 
last  addressed  the  Committee  ;  but  the  Chair  having  intimated  that  he  considered  it  as 
entirely  out  of  order,  they  resumed  their  seats.  ]Mr.  Madison  then  spoke  as  follows: 
Mr.  Chairman, — In  questions  of  compromise  necessarily  requiring  mutual  conces- 
sions of  opinion,  we  ought  not  to  be  controlled  by  opinions  formerly  expressed,  whe- 
ther derived  from  abstract  views  of  the  subject,  or  from  impressions  found  to  be  erro- 
neous as  to  the  state  of  opinion  prevaihng  in  this  body.  For  myself,  I  brought  to  this 
Convention  a  disposition  to  receive  from  firee  discussion  all  the  lights  it  might  furnish, 
and  a  spirit  of  compromise  of  which  I  foresaw  the  necessity ;  without  losino-  siofht  of 
the  interests  and  feelings  of  my  constituents.  This  view  of  the  trust  committed  to  me, 
was  known  to  them,  when  I  was  honored  with  it. 

This  necessity  of  compromise  is  now  felt  by  all ;  and  I  do  not  despair  that  it  will  yet 
be  effected  by  adequate  concessions  on  both  sides. 

The  plan  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  freed  as  it  has  been  from 
one  of  its  elements  (taxation,)  appears  to  be  entitled  to  a  favourable  consideration :  It 
is  not  liable  to  objections  which  are  so  decisive  with  those  who  oppose  the  rival  plan. 
The  original  and  real  ground  of  opposition  between  the  two  parties,  is,  that  one  basis 
of  Representation  for  both  Houses  of  the  Legislature  was  claimed  on  one  side,  and  a 
different  basis  for  both  Houses  on  the  other  side. 


574 


DEBATES   OP  THE  CONVENTION. 


The  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Northampton  compares  the  two  plans,  and 
divides  equal  concessions  by  the  difference  between  them. 

And  could  there  be  a  case,  Sir,  where  equal,  as  well  as  mutual,  concession  was  more 
reasonable  ?  For,  neither  side  can  say  to  the  other,  we  out-number  you,  and  you 
ought,  therefore,  to  yield  to  numbers.  Neither  side  will  presume  to  say  to  the  other, 
we  have  more  wisdom  than  you,  more  intelligence,  more  information,  more  experi- 
ence, more  patriotism,  or  more  of  the  confidence  of  our  constituents.  Yes,  Sir,  there 
never  was  a  case  imposing  more  obligation  on  both  sides  to  relax  in  their  opinions, 
and  by  equal  as  well  as  mutual  surrenders  of  opinions,  to  meet  on  middle  ground. 

1  acknowledge  that  I  cannot  concur  in  the  expediency  of  adopting  arrangements 
merely  temporary,  however  I  may  respect  and  value  the  motives  prompting  them. 
They  would,  in  my  view,  be  but  an  anodyne  to  the  public  agitation,  only  to  awaken 
it,  after  a  lapse  of  ten  years,  to  a  more  violent  state. 

It  would  be  folding  up  in  the  instrument  of  conciliation  itself,  hidden  torches  of  dis- 
cord, to  be  lighted  vip  whenever  the  same  great  subject  should  be  reviewed.  On  the 
whole.  Sir,  I  shall  give  my  vote  for  the  plan  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  North- 
ampton, as  a  more  equal  ground  of  compromise  than  the  other;  and  I  have  thought  it 
proper  to  make  this  explanation,  lest  my  course  should  be  supposed  wanting  in  con- 
sistency. 

Mr.  Nicholas  thought  it  due  to  himself  to  vindicate  the  course  he  should  pursue  on 
the  present  occasion.  Like  the  gentleman  from  Orange  (Mr.  Madison,)  he  tliought 
that  some  provision  ought  to  be  made  for  future  apportionments ;  but  tliis  was  not  pre- 
cluded by  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  (Mr.  Gordon.)  No  man 
in  the  Convention  represented  a  portion  of  the  State  that  would  lose  a  greater  num- 
ber of  representatives  by  the  arrangement,  than  his  own  district :  and  his  personal 
opinion  was,  that  Representation  ought  to  be  based  on  a  more  numerous  House  of  Dele- 
gates :  but  he  felt  himself  placed  in  a  situation  where  he  must  sacrifice  the  local  inte- 
rests of  his  district,  to  the  general  interests  of  Eastern  Virginia. 

He  thought  it  on  the  whole  best  to  do  so.  It  gave  him  great  pain  to  be  obliged  to 
choose  between  the  two  :  but  he  thought  he  should  be  best  subserving  the  interests  of 
his  constituents,  by  adopting  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle.  He 
considered  himself  as  pledged  to  contribute  his  aid  to  the  arrangement  of  a  future  sys- 
tem of  apportionment. 

Mr.  Scott  said,  he  was  acting  with  the  members  from  Middle  Virginia,  in  embracing 
Mr.  Gordon's  scheme. 

He  would  go  a  step  farther:  He  thought  he  should  be  in  favour  of  some  schem.e  of 
future  apportionment.  He  would  not  be  one  of  a  lean  majority  to  force  any  rule  re- 
specting that  subject  on  a  minority  :  but  he  was  prepared  to  increase  any  respectable 
majority  in  any  plan  they  should  be  able  to  agree  upon. 

The  question  was  now  taken  on  Mr.  Doddridge's  amendment,  and  decided  in  the 
negative — Ayes  44,  Noes  49. 

(Mr.  Monroe  voting  Aye,  Messrs.  Madison  and  Marshall,  No.) 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  Mr.  Gordon's  amendment,  and  carried — Ayes  49, 
Noes  43. 

(Mr.  Marshall  Aye,  Messrs.  Madison  and  Monroe,  No.) 

So  the  Committee  agreed  by  a  majority  of  six,  to  adopt  the  following,  as  a  substitute 
for  the  scheme  of  Mr.  Upshur : 

Resolved,  That  the  Representation  of  the  Senate  and  House  of  Delegates  of  Vir- 
ginia, shall  be  apportioned  as  follows  : 

There  shall  be  thirteen  Senators  West  of  the  Blue  Pudge  of  Mountains,  and  nine- 
teen East  of  those  Mountains. 

"  There  shall  be  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  one  hundred  and  twenty-seven  mem- 
bers, of  whom  twenty-nine  shall  be  elected  from  the  District  Vv^est  of  the  Alleghany 
Mountains;  tv/enty-four  from  the  Valley  between  the  Alleghany  and  Blue  Ridge; 
forty  from  the  Blue  Ridge  to  the  Head  of  Tide-water,  and  thirty-four  thence  below." 

Mr.  Upshur  now  offered  the  following  amendment : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Legislature  shall  have  power,  to  re-arrange  the  Representation 
in  both  Houses  of  the  General  Assembly,  once  in  every  years,  upon  a  fair 

average  of  the  following  ratios,  viz  :  1st,  of  white  population  ;  2d,  of  Federal  numbers." 
Mr.  Thompson  of  Amherst  offered  the  following  amendment,  to  that  of  Mr.  Upshur  : 
"  Resolved,  That  in  the  year  the  Legislature  shall  provide  by  law  for  taking 

the  Census  of  the  population  of  the  State,  and  for  a  new  assessment  of  its  lands  :  and 
at  the  next  succeeding  session  after  the  Census  shall  be  taken  and  the  assessment 
made,  the  Legislature  shall  by  law  submit  to  the  qualified  voters  the  decision  of  the 
question  of  the  basis  of  Representation  in  both  Houses  of  the  Legislature.  If  a  ma- 
jority concur  in  favor  of  any  particular  basis,  the  Legislature  shall  at  their  next  suc- 
ceeding session,  apportion  tire  one  hundred  and  twenty-eight  Delegates  and  thirty- 
two  Senators  according  to  such  basis,  and  shall  provide  by  law  for  all  future  appor- 
tionments upon  such  basis,  and  for  all  future  assessments — but  should  the  majority 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


575 


fail  to  combine  in  any  one  basis,  the  Legislature  shall  adopt  the  compound  basis  of 
white  population,  taxation  and  Federal  numbers,  in  one  only  or  both  branches  of  the 
Legislature,  as  to  them  shall  seem  expedient.  And  the  law  so  to  be  enacted  for  ap- 
portionment of  Representation  and  for  future  assessments,  shall  become  and  forever 
thereafter  be  a  part  of  this  Constitution." 

The  question  being  taken  without  debate,  it  was  negatived — Ayes  44,  Noes  50. 

[Messrs.  Madison,  Monroe  and  Marshall,  jXo.] 

Mr.  Claytor  offered  the  following : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Legislature  shall,  in  tlie  year  ,  make  provision  for  the 

organization  of  a  Convention  equally  as  nearly  as  may  be,  on  the  quahfied  voters  of 
this  Commonvv'ealth,  who  shall  re-apportion  the  Representation  in  both  Houses  of  the 
General  Assembly,  upon  such  basis  as  they  shall  think  best,  and  also  make  provision 
for  future  periodical  apportionments." 

Mr.  Johnson  stated  the  reason  why  he  should  vote  against  all  amendments  of  this 
character,  viz  :  that  the  Convention  v^'as  clothed  with  no  power  to  pass  them.  It  was 
called  for  a  specific  object,  viz  :  the  amendment  of  the  Constitution ;  and  it  had  no 
power  to  do  any  thing  else. 

The  amendment  was  rejected. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke  moved  the  following,  as  a  substitute  for  Mr.  Upshur's 
amendment : 

"  Resolved,  That  when  the  amended  Constitution  shall  be  submitted  to  the  people, 
the  following  question,  by  way  of  amendment,  shall  be  propounded  to  the  people,  for 
a  final  settlement  of  the  principle  of  the  apportionment  of  representation,  viz  : 

"  Shall  the  basis  of  Representation  in  both  branches  of  the  Legislature  be  white 
population  exclusively 

After  a  few  remarks  in  explanation  by  the  mover,  and  an  objection  by  Mr.  Leigh, 

The  amendment  was  rejected — Ayes  39. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  offered  the  following  amendment : 

"  Resolved,  That  in  the  year  ,  and  in  every  tenth  year  thereafter,  it  shall  be 

the  duty  of  the  General  Assembly  to  re-apportion  the  Representation  in  the  House 
of  Delegates,  as  nearly  as  possible  in  proportion  to  white  population  :  Provided,  That 
in  making  such  apportionments,  no  county  shall  be  subject  to  division." 

It  was  rejected — Ayes  4-5,  Noes  49. 

The  question  being  then  put  on  Mr.  Upshur's  amendment,  (see  above,)  it  was 
carried — Ayes  50. 

Mr.  Upshur  moved  the  following  proviso  : 

"  Provided,  That  the  number  of  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  never  exceed  , 
nor  the  number  of  the  Senate  ." 
It  was  carried. 

Mr.  Scott  moved  that  the  Committee  now  rise. 

Mr.  Powell  suggested,  that  it  would  be  better  to  report  progress,  and  go  into  the 
House  and  get  a  vote  upon  it. 

Mr.  Leigh  said  he  did  not  distinctly  understand  what  the  progress  was  :  he  wished 
to  see  and  reflect  upon  it, 

Mr.  Mercer  contended,  that  nothing  had  yet  been  done;  because  it.  was  the  under- 
standing, when  J\Ir.  Johnson  made  his  motion  to  strike  out  the  v/ord  Resolved" 
from  Mr.  Upshur's  first  proposition,  that  a  vote  was  to  be  finally  taken  on  accepting 
that  proposition  as  it  might  be  amended. 

The  Chair  said,  it  should  hold  it  to  be  its  duty  to  put  such  a  question,  should  it  be 
moved ;  but,  it  was  contrary  to  the  rule,  which  it  understood  to  have  been  adopted  at 
the  commencement  of  the  deliberations  of  the  Convention.  The  duty  of  a  Com- 
mittee was  to  amend — that  was  its  whole  duty — and  if  it  could  not  amend  what  was 
sent  to  it,  to  report  the  same  without  amendment. 

Mr.  Scott  was  opposed  to  reporting  in  part.  Let  the  Committee  go  on,  and  settle 
what  were  to  be  all  the  elements  of  the  new  Constitution,  and  then  refer  the  whole 
to  a  Select  Committee,  to  put  them  into  regular  form. 

The  Committee  then  rose. 

In  the  House,  the  printing  of  the  propositions  having  been  ordered, 
The  House  adjourned. 


MONDAY,  December  7,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  2  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Croes  of  the  Episcopal  Church. 

The  report  of  the  Committee  appointed  to  enquire  as  to  another  place  of  meeting 
for  the  Convention,  was  called  up ;  and  after  some  conversation,  was  agreed  to. 


576 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


The  result  is,  a  resolution  of  the  Convention  to  remove  its  sittings  to  Mr.  Arm- 
strong's Church,  where  suitable  fixtures  are  to  be  prepared  for  its  accommodation. 

A  motion,  authorising  the  Clerk  of  the  Convention  to  act  by  a  deputy,  was  slightly 
discussed,  and  for  tlie  present  laid  upon  the  table. 

[Mr.  Munford  (it  ought  in  justice  to  be  known,)  had  expressed  his  willingness  to 
resign,  but  was  persuaded,  by  many  leading  members  of  the  Convention,  not  to  do 
so.  He  then  expressed  his  willingness  to  serve  without  compensation.  Entire  satis- 
faction was  expressed  on  all  hands,  and  the  resolution  was  laid  upon  the  table,  on 
motion  of  Mr.  Summers,  merely  for  consideration  as  to  the  best  arrangement.  The 
name  of  Mr.  Wyndham  Robertson  (brother  of  the  Attorney  General,)  was  men- 
tioned as  a  suitable  deputy.] 

The  Convention  then,  on  motion  of  Mr.  Powell,  adjourned  to  meet  in  the  Presby- 
terian Church  to-morrow,  at  11  o'clock. 


TUESDAY,  December  8,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  in  the  Presbyterian  Church  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened 
with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr.  Croes  of  the  Episcopal  Church. 
The  President  laid  before  the  Convention  the  following  letter : 

RICHMOND,  December  8,  1829. 

Sir, — With  the  warmest  feelings  of  gratitude  to  the  Convention,  for  the  honorable 
office  they  were  pleased  to  bestow  upon  me,  permit  me,  through  you,  to  tender  them 
my  respectful  resignation  of  that  appointinent.  The  delicacy  of  my  situation  will  be 
readily  perceived.  For  the  fifth  time,  I  have  been  elected  Clerk  to  the  House  of 
Delegates ;  and  although  it  would  be  highly  gratifying  to  my  feelings  to  retain  my 
present  station  as  Secretary  of  the  Convention,  other  considerations  imperiously  re- 
quix'e  me  (with  whatever  reluctance,)  to  pursue  a  difi^erent  course.  So  long  as  the 
sessions  of  the  Convention  and  the  House  of  Delegates,  would  not  have  conflicted, 
it  would  have  given  me  great  pleasure  to  have  affi:)rded  each  of  them  my  services : 
and  I  had  determined  to  do  so,  without  receiving  double  compensation ;  but,  being  un- 
willing to  transact  by  deputy  the  duty  which  it  may  be  supposed  I  ought  to  perform 
myself,  I  feel  constrained  to  pursue  the  course  I  now  adopt.  It  will  alford  me  great 
pleasure  to  render  any  assistance  which  may  be  required  to  enable  my  successor  to 
understand  the  present  business  of  the  Convention. 

Relying  on  the  liberality  of  the  body  over  which  you  preside,  for  a  just  appreciation 
of  the  consideration,  and  an  indulgent  interpretation  of  the  motives  that  actuate  me, 
I  have  the  honor  to  be. 

With  the  greatest  respect. 

Your  and  their  very  obedient  servant, 

GEORGE  W.  MUNFORD. 

Hon.  James  Monroe,  ) 
President  of  the  Convention.  ) 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Scott,  the  letter  was  laid  upon  the  table. 

The  Convention  then,  on  motion  of  Mr.  Scott,  proceeded  to  ballot  for  a  Secretary. 

Mr.  Scott  nominated  Mr.  David  Briggs  of  Richmond,  (a  member  of  the  Executive 
Council,)  and  said  a  few  words  as  to  his  character  and  standing. 

Mr.  Doddridge  nominated  Mr.  Thomas  P.  Ray  of  Monongalia,  and  pledged  himself 
for  his  competency. 

Messrs.  Nicholas  and  Powell  supported  the  nomination  of  Mr.  Briggs, 

When  the  Convention  proceeded  to  the  ballot,  which  resulted  as  follows: 
For  Mr.  Briggs,     .  -  ...  57 

For  Mr.  Ray,         -  -  -  ,  -  26 

For  Mr.  W.  Robertson,  (no  candidate,)    -         -  3 

86 

The  result  of  the  ballot  having  been  reported  to  the  House,  Mr.  Briggs  was  de- 
clared to  be  duly  elected. 

Mr.  Venable,  referring  to  the  great  difficulty  of  hearing  in  the  present  place  of 
meeting,  moved  that  the  report  of  the  Committee  appointed  to  enquire  as  to  a  suitable 
place  of  meeting,  be  re-committed. 

The  President  laid  before  the  House  the  following  letter : 

RICHMOND,  7th  December,  1829. 
Sir, — I  am  requested,  by  a  resolution  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  to  advise  the  Con- 
vention of  Virginia  of  a  disposition  on  the  part  of  the  House,  to  afford  the  Conven- 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


577 


tion  every  facility  for  the  convenient  and  expeditious  dispatch  of  the  important  duties 
which  devolve  on  that  body,  and  to  offer  it  the  daily  use  of  the  Hall  of  the  House  of 
Delegates,  after  the  hour  of  12  o'clock. 
I  have  the  honor  to  be, 

With  great  respect, 

Your  obedient  servant, 

LINN  BANKS,  Speaker  H.  D. 

James  Monroe,  Esq.  > 
President  of  the  Convention.  ) 

A  desultory  debate,  attended  with  some  confusion,  ensued,  in  which  Messrs.  Vena- 
ble,  Mercer,  Bayly,  Goode,  Johnson,  Leigh,  Doddridge,  Stannrd,  Campbell  of  Brooke, 
Cooke  and  Mason,  took  part.  Various  propositions  were  suggested  :  some  to  carpet 
the  aisles  of  the  Churcli;  others  to  remove  to  the  Baptist  Church  ;  others  to  return 
to  the  Capitol ;  others  to  remain  and  give  the  present  place  of  meeting  a  longer  trial; 
but  the  conversation  (for,  it  scarce  deserved  the  name  of  a  debate.)  issued  in  the  adop- 
tion of  a  motion  made  by  Mr.  Fitzhugh,  that  the  Convention  adjourn,  to  meet  in  the 
Capitol  this  day  at  12  o'clock. 

The  Convention  adjourned  accordingly ;  [and  the  members,  who  had  been  seen  an 
hour  before,  streaming  down  the  hill,  were  soon  seen  retracing  their  steps,  relinquishing 
the  Church,  with  its  long  aisles  and  lofty  ceilings,  for  the  more  congenial  precincts  of 
the  Hall  of  Legislation,  with  its  convenient  seats  and  easy  reverberation.] 

At  12  o'clock,  the  Convention  assembled  in  the  Capitol. 

Mr.  Scott  announced  to  the  House  the  request  of  the  President,  that  his  presence 
might  be  dispensed  v/ith  for  the  rest  of  the  day,  and  that  Mr.  Stanard  would  occupy 
his  place. 

[Mr.  Monroe  is  in  feeble  health  ;  and  his  unremitted  attention  to  the  duties  of  his 
situation,  accompanied  by  the  effects  of  a  severe  cold,  have  greatly  prostrated  his 
strength.    It  is  hoped  he  will  be  able  to  resume  his  seat  to-morrow.] 

The  House  then  went  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  INIr.  P.  P.  Barbour  in  the 
Chair,  and  took  up  the  report  of  the  Executive  Committee,  (the  discussion  on  which 
occupied  tlie  residue  of  the  day.) 

When  this  report  was  last  under  consideration,  the  first  resolution  had  been  pro- 
posed to  be  amended  by  Mr.  Doddridge,  so  as  to  declare,  that  the  Governor  should  be 
elected  by  the  qualified  voters  of  the  Commonwealth,  entitled  to  vote  for  the  most 
numerous  branch  of  the  Legislature  ;  that  he  should  hold  his  office  for  three  years, 
and  then  be  ineligible  for  three  years  more. 

But  Mr.  D.  had  consented,  that  Mr.  Powell  should  first  offer,  as  a  substitute  for  the 
first  resolution,  the  following  plan  : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Executive  Department  of  the  existing  form  of  Government, 
ought  to  be  amended  as  follows : 

"  Sect.  1.  The  Executive  power  shall  be  vested  in  a  Governor.  He  shall  hold  his 
office  for  years,  and  be  ineligible  for  the  term  of  years  thereafter  :  and  a 

Lieutenant-Governor  shall  be  chosen  at  the  same  time,  for  the  same  term,  and  under 
the  same  restrictions. 

"  Sect.  2.  The  Lieutenant-Governor  shall  act  as  President  of  the  Senate,  but  he 
shall  have  no  right  to  vote,  except  the  Senate  be  equally  divided  upon  any  question; 
in  which  case  he  shall  have  the  casting  vote. 

"  Sect.  3.  No  person  shall  be  eligible  to  the  office  of  Governor  or  Lieutenant- 
Governor,  except  a  citizen  of  the  Commonwealth,  nor  any  who  shall  not  have  at- 
tained the  age  of  years,  and  who  shall  not  have  resided  years  next  pre- 
ceding his  election,  in  the  State. 

Sect.  4.  The  Governor  and  Lieutenant-Governor  shall  be  elected  at  the  times 
and  places  of  choosing  members  of  the  most  numerous  branch  of  the  Legislature,  by 
the  voters  qualified  to  vote  for  members  of  the  General  Assembly  :  Provided,  That 
the  election  shall  take  place  throughout  the  Commonwealth  on  the  same  day.  The 
persons  respectively  having  the  highest  number  of  votes  for  Governor  and  Lieute- 
nant-Governor, shall  be  elected.  In  case  two  or  more  persons  shall  have  an  equal 
number  of  votes  for  Governor,  or  for  Lieutenant-Governor,  the  Legislature  shall  im- 
mediately, by  joint  ballot  of  both  Houses,  choose  of  the  persons  having  an  equal 
number  of  votes  for  Governor  or  Lieutenant-Governor,  the  Governor  or  Lieutenant- 
Governor,  as  the  case  may  be. 

Sect.  5.  The  Governor  shall  be  Commander-in-chief  of  the  militia.  He  shall  have 
power  to  convene  the  Legislature  on  extraordinary  occasions.  He  shall,  from  time 
to  time,  give  information  to  the  Legislature  of  the  condition  of  the  Commonwealth, 
and  recommend  to  their  consideration,  such  measures  as  he  shall  judge  necessary  and 
expedient.  He  shall  expedite  all  such  measures  as  may  be  resolved  upon  by  the  Le- 
gislature, and  shall  take  care  that  the  laws  are  faithfully  executed. 

73 


578 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


"  Sect.  6.  The  Governor  and  Lieutenant-Governor,  shall,  at  stated  times,  receive 
for  their  services,  a  compensation,  which  shall  neither  be  increased  nor  diminished 
during  the  term  for  which  they  shall  have  been  elected. 

"  Sect.  7.  The  Governor  shall  have  power  to  grant  reprieves  and  pardons  after  con- 
viction, fur  all  olfences,  except  treasons  and  in  cases  of  impeachment.  Upon  con- 
viction for  treason,  he  shall  have  power  to  suspend  the  execution  of  the  sentence, 
until  the  case  shall  be  reported  to  the  Legislature  at  its  next  session,  when  the  Le- 
gislature may  pardon,  or  direct  the  execution  of  the  criminal,  or  grant  a  farther  re- 
prieve. 

Sect.  8.  In  case  of  the  removal  of  the  Governor  from  office,  or  of  his  death,  resig- 
nation, or  inability  to  discharge  the  duties  of  his  office,  his  powers  and  duties  shall 
devolve  on  the  Lieutenant-Governor;  and  in  case  of  the  removal,  death,  or  resigna- 
tion, or  like  inability  of  the  Lieutenant-Governor,  the  Legislature  may  provide  by 
law  upon  whom  the  duties  of  Governor  shall  devolve,  until  such  disabilities  shall  be 
removed,  or  a  Governor  shall  be  elected. 

"  Sect.  9.  The  Governor  shall  have  power  to  nominate,  and  by  and  with  the  advice 
and  consent  of  the  Senate,  appoint  Judges  of  the  Supreme  Court,  or  Court  of  Final 
Jurisdiction,  and  Judges  of  such  Inferior  Courts  as  may  from  time  to  time  be  estab- 
lished by  law;  all  militia  officers,  from  the  rank  of  Colonel  exclusive;  the  Treasurer, 
Auditor  of  Public  Accounts,  Register  of  the  Land  Office,  and  Attorney  General. 
The  Legislature  may  by  law  vest  the  appointment  of  all  other  officers  of  the  Com- 
monwealth, whose  appointments  are  not  herein  otherwise  provided  for,  in  the  Gover- 
nor, with  the  advice  and  consent  of  the  Senate,  or  in  the  Courts  of  Law. 

"  Sect.  10.  The  Governor  shall  have  power  to  fill  up  all  vacancies  that  may  happen 
during  the  recess  of  the  Senate,  by  granting  commissions,  which  shall  expire  at  the 
end  of  the  next  session  of  that  body. 

"  Sect.  11.  The  Governor  shall  have  power  to  require  in  writing  the  opinions  of  the 
Lieutenant-Governor,  and  of  the  Attorney  General,  upon  all  matters  appertaining 
to  the  duties  of  his  ofhce. 

"  Sect.  13.  No  person,  whose  tenure  of  office  depends  on  the  pleasure  of  the  Gov- 
ernor, shall  be  removed  from  office  without  the  advice  and  consent  of  the  Senate  to 
such  removal.  But  the  Governor  shall  have  power  at  any  time,  to  suspend  such 
officer,  and  appoint  another  to  discharge  the  duties  of  his  office,  until  the  next  ses- 
sion of  the  Senate,  and  until  their  advice  and  consent  to  such  removal  shall  be  ascer- 
tained and  expressed." 

And  the  question  being  now  on  that  amendment, 

Mr.  Powell  rose  and  addressed  the  Committee  : 

I  beg  leave  to  assure  the  Committee,  that  it  is  not  my  intention  to  occupy  their 
time  by  a  protracted  argument  in  favour  of  the  proposed  substitute  now  under  con- 
sideration, at  this  period  of  our  session,  after  having  expended  nine  weeks  in  discus- 
sion, without  having  definitely  settled  a  single  principle.  1  should  regard  myself  as 
unpardono.ble  in  trespassing  upon  the  time  of  the  Committee,  for  a  moment  longer 
than  Vv'as  absolutely  necessary  for  explanation.  I  shall  content  myself  with  bringing 
to  the  view  of  the  Committee,  the  new  and  distinguishing  principles,  which  it  is  my 
object  to  infuse  into  the  Executive  Department  of  the  Constitution,  and  the  leading' 
considerations  which  have  influenced  my  judgment,  in  presenting  the  proposed  sub- 
stitute. 

I  had  hoped,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  upon  this  subject,  there  could  exist  no  sectional 
or  party  feelings — that  Vv'e  should  all  concur  in  organizing  the  Executive  Department, 
upon  settled  and  acknowledged  principles — acknowledging  as  we  all  do,  that  in  a  fair 
representative  Government,  there  ought  to  be  three  departments  :  That  these  several 
departments  ought  to  be,  in  the  distribution  of  their  respective  powers,  separate  and 
distinct,  as  far  as  practicable,  and,  especially,  that  they  ought  to  be  independent  of 
each  other  :  but  above  all,  believing  that  one  department  should  not  owe  its  very  ex- 
istence to  another.  I  had  hoped  that  the  Committee  vvould  promptly  have  applied 
these  principles  to  the  Executive  of  the  existing  Constitution,  and  reformed  it  ac- 
cordingly. If  such  reform  is  not  required  at  the  present  moment,  I  ask  gentlemen  to 
look  forward  to  future  times  and  ask  themselves,  whether  in  the  course  of  human 
events,  the  time  may  not  arrive  when  the  present  powerless  Executive  may  not  be 
totally  inadequate  to  its  object.  It  is  painful  to  look  to  evil  times;  but  it  is  wise  to 
provide  for  such  times — to  be  prepared  for  the  evil  day,  when  it  shall  arrive.  The 
time  may  come,  when  an  efficient  Executive,  founded  upon  the  affection  and  confi- 
dence oi^  the  people,  may  be  absolutely  necessary  for  our  security  and  preservation. 
These  general  considerations  proinpted  me  to  propose  the  infusion  of  the  prefixed 
new  principles,  into  the  Executive  Department  of  the  Government.  It  must  be  con- 
ceded that  the  Executive  is  now  but  a  cypher — a  bye-word  at  home — an  object  of  ridi- 
cule abroad  ;  the  mere  creature  of  the  Legislature,  without  a  solitary,  substantive, 
independent  power — bound  to  obey  their  will,  and  execute  their  mandates — the  very 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


579 


name  of  the  Governor,  unknovrn  to  many  citizens  of  the  Commonwealth,  during  his 
whole  term  of  service. 

But,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  am  transcending  the  limits  I  had  prescribed  to  myself  upon 
the  present  occasion.  M}^  object  was  only  to  present  to  the  consideration  of  the 
Committee,  the  new  and  discriminating  principles,  I  was  desirous  of  introducing  into 
the  Executive  Department.    I  will  proceed  to  this  duty. 

I  propose  in  the  first  place,  the  creation  of  a  new"  officer,  with  new  powers,  and  for 
specific  purposes,  a  Lieutenant-Governor.  I  have  proposed  this,  with  reference  to 
what  this  Committee  have  ahead}'  done,  by  a  most  decided  vote  ;  I  mean  the  abolition 
of  the  Council  of  State  ;  and  moreover,  with  a  view  to  the  possible  death  or  disability 
of  the  Governor :  In  the  latter  event,  to  supply  his  place — and  in  the  former,  to 
constitute  one  of  his  advisory  Council.  This  ol£cer,  Sir,  migiit  also  discharge  other 
and  important  duties.  It  is  provided,  that  he  is  to  be  the  President  of  the  Senate — 
and,  to  him,  the  Legislature  would  be  expected  to  assign  duties  of  vital  importance, 
under  the  general  superintendence  of  the  Governor:  the  duty  of  watching  over,  and 
participating  in  directing  the  operations  of  the  Literary  Fund,  and  the  Fund  for  In- 
ternal Improvement,  and  a  general  superintendence  over  the  Penitentiary  system — 
duties  of  sufficient  interest  and  importance,  fully  to  occupy  the  time,  and  to  require 
the  talents  of  one  qualified  to  discharge  the  duties  of  the  Governor,  in  certain  events 
before  alluded  to. 

The  second  principle  I  proposed  to  introduce  into  the  Executive  Department  is, 
that  the  Governor  is  to  be  elected  bv  the  people,  and  not  by  the  Legislature  as  is  now 
provided :  In  other  words,  that  the  Chief  Magistrate  of  Virginia — the  head  of  a  dis- 
tinct department  of  the  Government,  is  not  to  owe  his  official  existence  to  a  co-ordi- 
nate branch  of  the  same  Government ;  is  not  to  owe  his  official  existence  to  a  branch 
of  the  Government,  upon  whom,  in  theory,  he  is  to  be  a  check — by  whom  he  is  paid 
for  his  services,  or  not,  according  to  its  will  and  pleasure  :  a  branch  of  the  Govern- 
ment, who  may  say  to  him,  for  every  independent  exercise  of  opinion,  contrary  to  its 
will :  We  will  not  only  deprive  you  of  your  office,  at  the  end  of  the  3'ear,  but  will, 
in  the  interim,  deprive  you  of  your  bread."  It  is  to  provide  a  security  against  such, 
a  state  of  dependence,  I  propose  the  election  of  the  Governor  by  the  people,  in  pre- 
ference to  the  Legislature.  I  had  beheved,  that  upon  tlais  principle,  there  could  be 
no  difference  of  opinion. 

But,  ^Ir.  Chairman,  if  the  people  are  capable  of  self-government,  does  it  not  follow, 
that  it  is  their  undeniable  right,  to  elect  the  Chief  Magistrate — a  right,  of  which  we 
cannot,  ought  not,  to  divest  them,  except  it  can  be  conclusively  shewn,  that  it  vrould 
be  unwise  and  unsafe,  to  limit  its  exercise  to  them 

It  devolves  upon  gentlemen,  opposed  to  the  election  of  the  Governor  by  the  people, 
to  shew,  that  it  is  safest  and  best  to  elect  by  the  Legislature,  rather  than  by  the  people. 
Permit  me  to  depart  from  the  course  I  had  prescribed  to  myself,  for  a  m.oment,  to  ex- 
amine one  or  two  of  the  most  prominent  arguments  relied  upon  by  gentlemen  in  op- 
position. The  venerable  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  (]Mr.  r>Ionroe,)  urges  upon  us, 
that  in  the  nature  of  things,  if  the  people  elect  him,  it  must  be  done  through  the 
agency  of  a  caucus.  Without  admittino-  the  correctness  of  this  proposition,  let  us 
examine,  for  a  moment,  the  character  and  extent  of  this  objection. 

Does  the  venerable  gentleman  believe,  that  caucus  agency  will  not  be  employed  in 
the  election  by  the  Legislature?  What  does  observation  and  experience  teach  us  upon 
this  subject.'  Do  we  not  all  know  in  elections  b}"  the  Legislature,  that  caucuses  are 
resorted  to  by  the  respective  friends  of  different  competitors  for  office  ?  That  in  truth 
and  in  fact,  the  facilities  and  efficiency  of  the  caucus  system  is  greater  in  a  small  than 
in  a  very  large  body.  Can  we  shut  our  eyes  to  the  fact,  that  where  the  Legislature 
have  the  power  to  appoint  to  office,  that  a  system  of  log-rolling  will  occasionally  be 
resorted  to  ?  That  interchange  of  good  offices  will  be  made  by  the  respective  friends 
of  candidates  for  different  offices  ?  I  will  appeal  to  the  venerable  gentleman  from 
Loudoun,  to  say,  if  the  caucus  system  is  inevitable,  whether  there  is  not  more  dan- 
ger to  be  apprehended  from  that  system  when  resorted  to  in  the  Legislature,  than 
when  individuals  are  selected  and  deputed  by  the  people  from  every  section  of  the 
State,  to  meet  at  some  convenient  place  to  nominate  a  suitable  candidate  for  Gover- 
nor, for  this  object  alone  and  with  no  other  or  further  powers.  I  do  not  think,  Mr. 
Chairman,  the  evil  likely  to  occur  ;  but,  if  inevitable,  I  am  perfectly  satisfied,  that 
the  caucus  system,  springing  directly  from  the  people,  for  a  single  and  unconnected 
object,  is  liable  to  much  fewer  exceptions,  than  the  same  system  in  the  Legislature, 
Would  gentlemen  consent,  that  the  President  of  the  United  States  should  be  elected 
by  Congress  originally  ?  Has  not  experience  taught  us  the  evils  of  electing  the  Pre- 
sident ultimately  by  that  body.'  Has  not  the  opinion  become  universal,  that  the  Con- 
stitution of  the  United  States  ought  to  be  altered  in  that  respect  ?  All  the  reasons  in 
favour  of  such  alteration,  apply  in  opposition  to  the  election  of  the  Governor  by  the 
Legislature.  The  last  alteration  which  is  proposed  by  the  substitute,  and  to  which  I 
shall  invite  the  attention  of  the  Committee,  is  the  transfer  from  the  Legislature,  of 


580 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


the  appointment  of  certain  enumerated  officers  to  the  Governor,  by  and  with  the  ad- 
vice and  consent  of  the  Senate.  In  vesting  this  power  in  the  Governor  and  the 
Senate,  I  have  not  been  insensible  to  the  evil  consequences  of  giving  a  large  patro- 
nage to  the  Executive,  and  have  attempted  to  guard  against  them.  Our  experience 
under  the  Government  of  the  United  States,  while  it  has  evinced  the  evils  of  giving 
unlimited  patronage  to  the  Executive,  certainly  furnishes  no  argument  to  shew,  that 
the  Executive  ought  to  have  no  patronage,  or  that  patronage  may  be  more  safely 
confided  to  the  Legislative  Department.  I  beg  gentlemen  to  look  to  the  particular 
character  of  tlie  several  officers,  whose  appointment  I  propose  to  give  to  the  Gover- 
nor and  Senate  ;  and  I  beg  them,  to  ask  themselves,  if  in  the  nature  of  things,  there 
is  any  ground  to  fear  the  use  of  this  patronage  for  sinister  purposes.  He  is  to  nomi- 
nate, and  by  and  with  the  advice  of  the  Senate,  to  appoint  the  Judges,  the  mihtia 
officers  over  the  rank  of  Colonel ;  the  Treasurer,  Auditor  of  Pubhc  Accounts,  Regis- 
ter of  the  Land  Office,  and  the  Attorney  General,  and  no  others.  The  number  of  the 
Judges  is  small,  and  they  are  dispersed  over  a  wide  surface  of  country.  Their  cha- 
racter, their  habits,  their  tenure  of  office,  their  entire  independence,  all  preclude  the 
idea  of  their  subserviency  to  party  views  or  party  purposes — there  can  be  no  fear  from 
this  source  of  patronage.  The  militia  officers  over  the  rank  of  Colonel,  are  alone  to 
be  appointed  by  the  Executive  and  the  Senate.  Can  gentlemen  seriously  apprehend 
danger  from  this  source  of  patronage  ?  I  will  not  delay  the  Committee  by  combating 
so  idle  and  visionary  a  fear.  There  is  one  idea,  however,  connected  with  this  branch 
of  the  subject,  which  1  feel  bound  to  suggest.  If  the  militia  are  to  be  effectually  em- 
ployed— if  such  an  occasion  should  ever  occur,  the  Governor  is  and  ought  to  be  held 
responsible  for  all  results  as  Commander-in-chief ;  and  common  justice  would  demand 
that  he  ought  to  have  the  selection  of  his  agents  in  the  discharge  of  his  important 
duties.  There  are  many  and  strong  considerations  that  might  be  urged  against  de- 
positing the  appointing  power  in  the  Legislative  Department.  It  is  the  most  expen- 
sive department  of  every  Government.  It  is  the  most  encroaching  department. 
There  is  an  irresistible  propensity  in  the  popular  branch  of  every  Republican  Gov- 
ernment, to  draw  to  itself  as  much  power  as  possible — and  above  all,  if  they  dis- 
charge faithfully  their  Legislative  duties,  they  have  no  time  to  devote  to  other  and 
diffisrent  duties.  The  experience  of  every  gentleman  must  have  satisfied  him,  that 
there  is  great  waste  of  the  public  money  in  the  exercise  of  the  appointing  power  by 
the  Legislature  of  Virginia.  Even  in  the  appointment  of  a  Councillor  of  State,  we 
have  witnessed  one  or  two  days  of  the  time  of  the  Legislature  expended,  at  the  rate 
of  a  thousand  or  twelve  hundred  dollars  per  day;  and  the  same  remark  is  applicable 
to  a  greater  or  less  extent  in  all  elections  by  the  Legislature. 

I  have  thus  briefly  explained,  Mr.  Chairman,  the  provisions  of  the  substitute  in- 
tended to  vary  the  existing  Executive  system.  I  might  debate  upon  these  several 
subjects,  but  I  forbear — our  time  is  too  precious,  and  the  questions  have  incidentally 
been  often  discussed  in  the  progress  of  our  debates.  I  will  now  appeal,  in  conclusion, 
to  honourable  gentlemen  who  have  indulged  so  freely  in  denunciations  of  this  scheme, 
as  tending  to  erect  a  splendid  Executive — as  calculated  to  infuse  into  the  Constitution 
monarchical  principles,  to  point  their  finger  to  a  single  feature,  calculated  to  support 
these  imputations.  I  leave  my  scheme  to  its  fate,  satisfied  whatever  that  fate  may  be, 
I  shall  in  no  wise  be  responsible. 

Mr.  Tazewell  rose  in  reply.  It  was  not  his  intention,  at  this  time,  to  go  at  length 
into  the  merits  of  the  question.  The  mover  of  the  amendment,  had  commenced  his 
argument  in  defence  of  it,  by  stating  its  chief  merit  to  lie  in  that  feature,  by  which  the 
election  of  Governor  was  given  directly  to  the  people.  On  that  feature  of  it,  he  should 
address  a  few  remarks  to  the  Committee. 

Ought  the  Governor  of  such  a  Commonwealth  as  Virginia,  to  be  elected  directly 
by  the  people  ? 

In  discussing  this  subject,  the  advocates  of  the  proposition  had  invariably  com- 
menced, by  laying  down  the  doctrine,  that  on  republican  principles,  the  people,  and 
the  people  alone,  are  the  legitimate  source  of  power  :  and  that,  therefore,  they  ought 
to  elect,  to  all  the  offices  in  the  Commonwealth.  None,  that  ever  he  had  heard  of, 
doubted  the  position,  that  the  people,  in  this  country,  are  the  sole,  legitimate  source 
of  power. 

The  only  question,  said  Mr.  T.  is,  as  to  the  mode  in  which  they  shall  exercise  their 
power.  Shall  they  exercise  it  themselves,  in  ihe  first  instance,  or  by  agents,  whom 
they  appoint  for  that  purpose  ?  Either  of  these  modes  is  equally  republican.  "Will 
the  gentleman  contend  that  the  President  of  the  United  States  is  not  elected  by  the 
people  ?  Yet  the  means  they  employ  in  electing  him,  is  to  appoint  Electors  to  choose 
him  by  their  votes.  The  means  by  which  the  Governor  of  Virginia  is  elected  at  pre- 
sent, are  of  the  same  kind.  The  people  elect  the  members  of  the  Legislature,  with 
the  knowledge  that  they  are  to  choose  the  Governor.  The  election  of  these  Delegates 
is  the  act  of  all  the  people.  And  the  only  question  is,  whether  they  shall  call  an  in- 
dividual to  the  Executive  office,  in  their  own  persons,  or  through  their  agents.  Like 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONTENTION. 


581 


most  other  questions  in  politics,  it  is  a  question  of  expediency :  to  be  referred  to  the 
condition  of  the  countr}-,  and  the  nature  of  the  duties  to  be  performed  by  the  Execu- 
tive. The  gentleman  himself  concedes  the  question,  in  another  view  of  it.  If  it  be 
true  that  all  power  originates  with  the  people,  and  that,  Lhexefare,  they  ought  to  choose 
their  own  officers,  and  the  Governor  as  one  of  them,  why  is  it  not  true  that  the  peo- 
pie  oufflit  to  choose  the  Judges  also?  Why  deprive  them  of  the  power  of  electing 
officers  of  one  kind,  and  admit  them  to  elect  those  of  another?  And  yet  the  gen- 
tleman himself  makes  this  distinction.  I  heartily  concur  with  him  that  the  Judicial 
officers  ought  not  to  be  chnsen  directly  bv  the  people  :  but  I  contend  tliat  it  is  equally 
inexpedient  that  they  should  elect  Executive  officers.  I  have  many  objections  to  it; 
to  not  one  of  which,  the  present  mode  of  election  is  exposed. 

I  do  not  approve  of  calhng  on  the  people  to  elect,  except  in  a  case  where  they  can 
act  understandincrlv  :  and  that  is,  in  the  choice  of  their  own  local  Representatives  ;  the 
members  of  both  Houses  of  the  State  Legislature,  and  members  of  Congress.  They 
all  know  this  duty,  and  perform  it  well ;.  but  when  you  give  them  the  choice  of  officers, 
consequences  result  which  are  fatal  in  their  tendency  to  the  people  themselves. 

The  first  difficulty  is  this  :  in  summoning  them  to  the  polls,  you  must  either  con- 
vene them  at  the  same  time  that  they  elect  their  R-epresentatives,  or  at  a  different 
time,  if  at  a  different  time,  we  all  know,  from  experience,  that  it  is  impossible  to  get 
a  full  election.  They  will  not,  and  do  not,  turn  out  to  the  polls  at  an}'  other  season 
of  the  year  than  in  the  Spring.  This  is  not  speculation  ;  it  is  fact,  as  all  gentlemen 
who  hear  me  know.  When  vacancies  occur,  by  death  or  other  causes,  in  the  Dele- 
gation to  the  Legislature,  and  writs  are  issued  for  an  occasional  election,  out  of  the 
usual  season,  it  often  happens  that  less  than  half,  sometimes  that  less  than  a  third,  of 
the  whole  number  of  voters  in  the  Spring,  can  be  brought  to  the  polls.  If  the  choice 
of  your  Governor  shall  be  appointed  at  any  other  time  of  the  year  than  at  the  Spring 
elections,  the  practical  result  will  be,  that  he  will  inevitabh-  be  chosen  by  a  small  mi- 
nority of  the  voters  themselves.  You  will  be  compelled  to  elect  all  your  officers  at 
the  same  time,  and  then  we  know,  from  what  takes  place  in  other  States,  what  must 
follow.  When  many  officers  are  to  be  chosen  at  one  and  the  same  time,  the  choice 
of  the  most  important  of  them  will  invariably  control  all  the  others :  the  smaller  offices 
will  be  lost  sight  of,  and  swallowed  up  in  the  importance  of  the  great  one.  If  you  so 
arrange  your  system  as  to  make  the  office  of  the  Governor  the  most  important,  then 
the  friends  and  partizans  of  the  Governor,  will  doubtless  be  very  glad  to  see  the  plan 
of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick  (Mr.  Powell)  prevail,  and  thej'  will  sacrifice  every 
thing  else  to  secure  the  election  of  their  Governor.  It  is  so  in  New  York.  He  who  is 
for  the  Governor,  is  sure  to  get  the  vote  of  all  other  officers  in  the  county  :  it  is  the 
invariable  result.  But  these  are  not  all  the  consequences  that  must  ensue.  By  whom 
is  the  election  of  Governor  to  be  made  ?  by  a  mojority  of  the  people  .'  or  only  by  a  plu- 
rality? If  it  be  said,  by  a  majority,  I  ask  whether,  if  the  people  are  to  be  left  wholly 
to  themselves  in  this  matter,  in  an  empire  so  wide  as  this  Commonwealth,  and  with 
so  little  intercourse  between  its  opposite  extremities,  any  man  can  believe  it  possible 
that  the  people  will  ever  elect  a  Governor  at  all On  this  plan  there  would  be  twenty- 
five  candidates  at  the  least ;  some  leading  man  is  best  known  to  each  district  of  the 
State  ;  and  the  people,  left  to  themselves,  vrill  naturally  vote  for  him  ;  there  will  be  as 
many  candidates  as  there  are  districts,  if  not  more,  and  there  will  be  no  election.  Then, 
I  suppose  we  are  to  adopt  the  New  England  practice,  and  turn  them  back  to  the  peo- 
ple till  they  shall  give  one  the  majority.  But  in  the  mean  while,  the  period  will  have 
elapsed  for  which  he  wa-s  to  have  served.  You  will  never  unite  a  majority  of  all  the 
people  of  Virginia  on  any  one  candidate  in  that  time.  But  to  guard  against  this  diffi- 
cult}', you  say  that  3.  jjlurality  shall  elect.  What  then.'  There  will  be  a  diversity  of 
votes,  and  the  largest  and  most  united  county  in  the  State,  (which  that  is  I  do  not 
know)  will  regularly  and  invariably  give  a  Governor  to  the  Commonwealth.  Which- 
ever course  you  pursue,  you  will  come  to  the  same  result.  You  must  either  get  a  Go- 
vernor who  is  not  known  to  the  people,  or  a  Governor  appointed  by  a  small  minority 
of  the  people.  A  remedy  will  be  brought  for  such  a  dilemma,  and  what  will  it  be  ? 
The  members  of  the  Legislature  will  convene  in  this  Hall,  and  here  they  will  hold  a 
Caucus  to  make  a  nomination  of  Governor! 

It  will  happen  from  the  necessity  of  the  case.  Then  what  becomes  of  the  gentle- 
man's principle.'  In  its  place  you  will  introduce  the  odious  caucus  system,  in  all  its 
vigour,  here,  at  the  Seat  of  Government:  and  then,  you  have  an  election,  not  by  the 
people,  but  by  a  majority  of  the  members  of  the  Legislature,  not  appointed  to  the 
task,  and  wholly  irresponsible  for  the  manner  in  which  they  perform  it.  Is  it  not  bet- 
ter at  once,  and  openly,  to  call  upon  the  members  to  vote  for  the  Governor,  and  hold 
them  responsible  for  their  act.' 

For  this  reason  it  was,  that  the  wise  framers  of  your  Constitution  gave  the  election 
to  the  Legislature.  It  is  better  than  to  give  it  to  the  people  directly,  who  can  have 
little  personal  information  as  to  the  comparative  merits  of  candidates,  and  who  can 


582 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


make  no  choice  by  a  majority  for  a  long  period  of  time ;  and  who,  if  electing  by  a  plu- 
rality, will  be  thrown  into  the  hands  of  a  caucus. 

Something  was  said  about  tJie  expense  of  this  election :  we  were  told  it  was  to  cost 
$1,2U0.  But  has  the  gentleman  calculated  the  expense  of  giving  the  election  to  the 
people?  the  loss  that  must  be  sustained  by  them  in  order  to  perform  the  task?  Will 
%  1,200  or  %  12,000,  cover  this?  No,  Sir;  this  is  an  element  he  has  not  considered. 
Does  he  think  it  costs  nothing  to  call  out  all  the  people  of  Virginia  to  their  courthouses, 
some  ten  or  a  dozen  times  in  the  course  of  two  years  ?  On  the  score  of  economy, 
then,  the  matter  is  much  better  as  it  now  stands. 

I  am  opposed  to  frequently  convening  the  people  in  any  other  manner  than  is  at 
present  provided  by  the  Constitution.  Nothing  is  more  likely  to  dissatisfy  the  people 
themselves,  than  to  harass  them  in  this  way.  We  know  that  even  now,  whatever 
their  disposition  may  be  on  some  special  occasion,  but  comparatively  few  attend  at  our 
elections.  Get  them  to  begin  neglecting  to  attend  the  election  of  Governor,  and  you 
will  soon  have  them  neglecting  the  elections  of  members  of  their  Legislature ;  the 
most  calamitous  event,  in  my  judgment,  of  any  that  can  befal  the  Commonwealth. 

These  are  the  reasons  for  which  I  prefer  the  mode  of  election  now  provided  by  the 
Constitution;  or  rather,  that  which  will  be  provided,  if  one  of  the  principles  be  finally 
adopted  vi^hich  has  received  the  sanction,  I  believe,  of  all,  or  nearly  all  the  members 
of  this  Committee,  viz  :  that  all  the  elections  shall  be  held  vita  voce.  Suffer  me,  here, 
to  answer  one  of  the  arguments  of  the  gentleman,  which  he  grounded  on  the  fear  that 
in  the  Legislature  there  will  be  introduced  a  system  of  "  log-rolling,"  as  it  has  been 
expressively  termed.  Let  me  remind  the  gentleman  that  there  is  to  be  no  hallot'hox  ; 
each  member  will  have  to  record  his  vote  with  his  name  to  it.  His  constituents  will 
know  how  he  has  acted,  and  he  will  have  to  explain  when  he  returns  to  them.  This 
will  be  a  great  improvement  in  the  election  of  Governor.  The  people  will  still  elect 
him,  but  not  by  irresponsible  agents.  The  Constitution  will  require  every  man  to 
act  openly,  viva  voce,  under  the  eye  of  those  who  appointed  him.  But  the  choice 
immediately  by  the  people,  will  be  injurious  in  its  efiect,  to  the  people  themselves. 

One  word  on  the  other  branch  of  his  argument ;  I  mean  that  part  of  it  relating  to 
patronage.  In  modern  times,  all  the  practical  business  of  Government  is  confined 
principally  to  two  subjects,  which  absorb  all  its  actual  power;  these  are,  revenue  and 
patronage.  It  has  been  said  by  one  of  the  wisest  statesmen  of  modern  times,  that 
"  the  revenue  of  the  nation  is  the  nation."  I  concur  in  this  sentiment:  and  next, 
after  revenue,  comes  patronage.  In  a  Republican  Government,  nothing  is  so  impor- 
tant ais  first  to  reduce  the  amount  of  its  patronage,  and  then  to  divide  the  power  over 
what  remains.  The  wise  framers  of  our  Constitution  hit  upon  the  mode  of  doing  this. 
They  gave  to  the  County  Courts  a  large  share  of  the  patronage  of  this  Common- 
wealth; they  gave  another  large  share  to  the  Legislature,  and  then  they  allowed 
the  Executive  the  rest.  The  effect  has  been  most  happy  :  There  has  not  been,  in  the 
course  of  fifty-four  years,  a  single  case,  at  least  my  recollection  does  not  now  supply 
me  with  one  single  case,  of  general  excitement  in  the  choice  of  our  Governor.  There 
has  been  no  caucus ;  no  log-rolling.  The  reason  is,  the  Executive  has  not  enjoyed 
much  patronage.  But  clothe  the  Executive  power  with  the  patronage  of  the  State, 
and  you  will  introduce  at  once  conflicting  pi-inciples,  which  it  will  be  impossible  to 
control,  and  which  will  have  the  most  dangerous  consequences.  So  far  from  regard- 
ing the  second  member  in  the  gentleman's  plan  as  any  recommendation  to  it,  I  consi- 
der it  the  most  objectionable  feature  of  the  whole.  Let  the  patronage  of  the  State  re- 
main as  it  is,  and  it  will  produce  only  good  results;  but  increase  it,  as  is  proposed,  and 
you  will  make  the  office  of  Governor  po  desirable,  that  you  will  have  cabals  and  com- 
motion thi'oughout  the  community. 

These  are  the  reasons  why  I  am  opposed  to  those  two  features  of  the  gentleman's 
plan  :  and  if  these  two  are  stricken  out,  all  the  residue  will  be  found  to  have  been  pro- 
vided for  in  the  report  of  the  Executive  Committee. 

Mr.  Wilson  required  that  the  question  be  taken  on  the  several  resolutions  of  Mr. 
Powell  seriatim,  as  he  was  in  favor  of  some  and  opposed  to  others  of  them. 

Mr.  Stanard  called  first  for  a  division  of  the  question  to  strike  out  and  insert. 

It  was  so  divided  accordingly  :  and  (on  the  question  to  strike  out  the  resolutions  of 
the  Executive  Committee,  as  already  amended,  previously  to  the  offering  of  Mr. 
Powell's  substitute,)  the  vote  stood,  Ayes  34:  which  being  a  minority,  the  motion  to 
strike  out  was  lost. 

So  the  Committee  decided  not  to  prefer  Mr.  Powell's  substitute. 

(Mr.  Madison  voted  in  the  affirmative.) 

Mr.  Doddridge  now  moved  farther  to  amend  the  report  of  the  Executive  Committee, 
as  follows  : 

"  That  the  Governor  be  elected  by  the  persons  qualified  to  vote  for  membei-s  of  the 
House  of  Delegates,  at  the  several  times  and  places  appointed  to  hold  elections  for 
members  of  the  General  Assembly.    The  Governor  shall  hold  his  office  for 
years,  and  afler  the  expiration  of  his  time,  shall  be  inehgible  for  years." 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


583 


And  the  question  being  on  striking  out  and  inserting, 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  said,  that  the  report  of  the  Committee  had  been  amended  on  his  mo- 
tion. The  opinions  he  had  then  expressed,  he  held  still.  If  the  Constitution  was  to 
be  so  framed,  that  the  election  of  Governor  by  the  Legislature,  would  be  a  fair  ex- 
pression of  the  will  of  the  people,  and  would  leave  the  Governor  afterwards  indepen- 
dent of  the  Legislature,  he  should  be  in  favour  of  his  election  by  that  body.  He 
thought  the  Governor's  independence  pretty  well  secured,  as  the  resolution  now  stood  ; 
and  the  question  now  was,  whether  his  election  by  the  Legislature  would  be  a  fair 
expression  of  the  popular  will.  But  this  must  depend  on  a  matter  yet  unsettled,  viz  : 
the  arrangement  of  Representation  and  Suffrage.  If  this  was  to  be  so  arranged,  that 
the  vote  of  the  majority  of  the  Legislature  would  express  the  will  of  but  a  minority 
of  the  people,  then  he  should  be  in  favour  of  his  election  by  the  people  themselves. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  that  he  too  adhered  to  his  former  view  of  this  subject.  He 
felt  so  much  solicitude  on  the  all-absorbing  question  of  the  basis  of  Representation, 
that  it  entered  into  all  subjects  connected  with  it.  If  the  Legislature  was  not  to  be 
made  fairly  to  represent  the  people,  then  his  solicitude  for  a  popular  election  of  Gov- 
ernor would  be  still  farther  enhanced.  They  could  not  stir  wisely  in  this,  until  that 
was  first  settled. 

Mr.  Leigh  demanded  a  division  of  the  question  on  striking  out  and  inserting.  It 
was  divided  accordingly ;  and  the  question  being  put  on  striking  out,  it  was  nega- 
tived— Ayes  42,  Noes  49. 

[Mr.  Madison,  Aye.] 

So  the  Committee  refused  to  strike  out  the  Governor's  election  by  the  Legislature. 
No  farther  amendments  being  offered  to  the  first  resolution  of  the  Executive  Com- 
mittee, the  second  was  read  as  follows : 

2.  Resolved,  That  there  ought  to  be  appointed  a  Lieutenant-Governor  of  this  Com- 
monwealth." 

No  amendments  being  offered  to  this,  the  third  resolution  was  then  read,  which  is 
in  these  words: 

3.  Resolved,  That  the  Executive  Council,  as  at  present  organized,  ought  to  be  abol- 
ished, and  that  it  is  inexpedient  to  provide  any  other  Executive  Council." 

Mr.  Upshur  moved  to  amend  this  resolution  as  follows : 

*'  Resolved^  That  there  shall  be  appointed  an  Executive  Council  or  Council  of  State, 
consisting  of  a  Lieutenant-Governor,  and  two  Councillors,  (who  shall  perform  the 
same  duties,  and  in  all  other  respects  hold  the  same  relation  to  the  Governor,  as  the 
present  Council  of  State.) 

"  The  said  Councillors  shall  be  elected  by  the  General  Assembly,  and  shall  con- 
tinue in  office  three  years,  but  may  be  re-elected  from  term  to  term.  All  vacancies 
occasioned  by  death,  resignation,  removal  from  the  Commonwealth,  or  other  disability, 
shall  be  supplied  by  the  General  Assembly. 

"  Two  of  the  said  Council  shall  form  a  quoruisi,  and  in  case  of  an  equal  division  of 
the  Council,  the  Governor  shall  have  the  casting  vote." 

Mr.  Wilson  demanded  a  division  of  the  question,  on  striking  out  and  inserting;  but 
withdrew  the  motion  at  the  request  of 

Mr.  Fitzhugh,  who  wished  Mr.  Upshur  to  have  an  opportunity  of  explaining  and 
advocating  the  amendment  he  had  offered  ;  but  who  gave  notice  that  if  it  was  adopted, 
he  (Mr.  F.)  should  move  to  amend  it  in  a  manner  which  he  explained. 

Mr.  Upshur  then  rose  to  address  the  Committee  : 

Mr.  Chairman, — It  was  very  far  from  my  expectation,  when  I  offered  the  resolution 
before  you,  that  I  should  involve  myself  in  the  discussion  of  this  already  exhausted 
subject.  It  was  my  design  to  submit  to  an  immediate  vote,  without  adding  a  single 
remark  to  the  ample  arguments,  which  we  have  already  heard.  It  seems  to  be  con- 
sidered, however,  that  I  am  renewing  a  proposition,  which  has  been  substantially  re- 
jected already,  and  of  course,  that  it  is  incumbent  on  me  to  assign  some  reason  for 
such  a  proceeding.  I  shall  do  so,  Sir,  with  all  possible  brevity  and  simplicity,  con- 
tenting myself  with  a  mere  exposition  of  my  views,  without  attempting  to  enforce  or 
illustrate  the  conclusive  arguments,  which  have  already  been  urged  by  others. 

We  must  all  have  been  struck  with  the  fact,  that  every  scheme  which  has  been 
presented  to  us  upon  this  subject,  contemplates  a  Council,  in  one  fcrm  or  another. 
In  this  respect,  the  coincidence  between  them  is  remarkable,  and  they  differ  only  in 
the  details  of  arrangement,  and  the  duties  to  be  performed.  Let  us  examine  them  all, 
in  order  that  we  may  select  from  their  number  that  which  will  be  at  once  the  cheapest, 
and  the  most  safe  and  salutary  in  practice. 

The  first  to  be  reviewed,  is  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Richmond,  (Mr.  Nicholas.) 
He  proposed  a  Council  different  from  that  now  under  consideration,  only  in  this,  that 
it  was  to  consist  of  four  members,  instead  of  three.  I  need  scarcely  say,  that  it  met 
my  entire  approbation ;  but,  it  has  been  rejected  by  the  Committee,  chiefly,  I  am  wil- 
ling to  believe,  because  it  was  considered  unnecessarily  numerous,  and  therefore,  un- 
necessarily expensive.    In  this  respect,  and  in  this  only,  the  plan  before  us  is  pre- 


584 


DEBATES    OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


ferable.  It  promises  the  same  advantages  as  a  component  part  of  the  Executive, 
W^hile  it  removes,  to  a  great  extent,  the  objection  on  the  score  of  expense. 

Another  plan  proposes,  that  the  Council  shall  consist  of  the  Attorney  General,  and 
what  has  been  called  the  Heads  of  Departments;  that  is,  the  Auditors,  Treasurer, 
Register  of  the  Land  Office,  or  some  one  or  more  of  them.  In  this  respect,  gentle- 
men seek  to  form  the  Government  of  Virginia  upon  the  model  presented  to  us  in  that 
of  the  United  States,  not  remembering  that  the  two  Governments  are  so  entirely  dif- 
ferent, both  in  their  structure  and  in  their  purposes,  as  to  discountenance  all  argu- 
ments from  analogy.  The  very  nature  and  objects  of  these  offices  in  Virginia,  forbid 
the  idea  that  those  who  fill  them  are  properly  qualified  to  become  the  advisers  of  the 
Executive  head.  They  all  require  men  of  methodical  business  habits,  laborious  in- 
dustry, and  a  correct  knowledge  of  accounts;  and  they  require  nothing  more.  We 
have  no  diplomatic  intercourse  to.  conduct;  no  foreign  connexions  to  guard  ;  no  in- 
terest of  any  sort,  with  which  these  officers  are  connected,  requiring  that  they  should 
be  politicians,  nor  indeed,  that  they  should  possess  any  other  qualifications  than  those 
of  the  simple  accountant  and  clerk.  To  what  objects  shall  the  Legislature  have 
regard,  in  electing  them  to  office  ?  Shall  the  Auditor  be  chosen  because  he  is  quali- 
fied for  the  duties  of  Auditor,  or  because  he  possesses  the  loftier  qualifications  of  an 
Executive  Councillor?  He  who  is  best  suited  to  the  one  station,  may  be  least  suited 
to  the  other;  and  this  indeed,  must  be  the  case  in  most  instances,  since  the  duties  of 
the  two  stations  are  wholly  dissimilar.  The  same  remark  applies  with  equal  truth  to 
the  Treasurer  and  Register.  By  this  plan,  therefore,  we  shall  be  reduced  to  the  sad 
alternative,  either  of  filling  these  important  departments  with  incompetent  heads,  or 
else  of  providing  the  Governor  with  incompetent  advisers.  To  this  view  of  the  sub- 
ject, which  would  of  itself  be  conclusive  to  my  mind,  may  be  added  the  fact,  alike 
fortunate  and  honourable  to  us,  that  we  have  no  offices  without  official  duties.  And  so 
far  as  the  officers  above  mentioned  are  concerned,  it  is  believed  to  be  strikingly  true, 
that  they  have  already  a  mass  of  duties  resting  upon  them,  which  all  their  time  and 
all  their  attention  barely  enable  them  to  discharge.  As  to  the  Attorney  General,  he 
is  already  a  Councillor,  as  far  as  he  can  ever  be  properly  made  so.  He  is  the  law 
adviser  of  the  Executive.  This  is  his  profession,  and  for  this  he  is  fitted.  His  mind 
is  not  turned  to  the  details  of  Executive  business;  and  he  may,  and  in  most  cases 
zvill  be  found  as  little  qualified  for  them  as  any  other  man  in  the  community. 

There  is  yet  another  objection,  which  is  decisive  upon  this  question.  According  to 
the  scheme  of  our  laws,  (and  from  the  necessity  of  the  case,  it  must  always  be  so,) 
the  Executive  exerts  a  direct  supervision  over  most,  and  perhaps  all  of  these  depart- 
ments. It  must  appear  to  every  one  extremely  absurd,  to  compel  the  Governor  to 
take  advice  of  those  very  individuals,  upon  whom  his  power  is  to  operate,  and  who 
have,  so  far  as  this  branch  of  Executive  duty  is  concerned,  a  direct  interest  to  mis- 
lead his  judgment.  The  argument  upon  this  point  is  susceptible  of  great  amplifi- 
cation. Gentlemen,  however,  will  not  fail  to  perceive  the  dangerous  and  corrupting 
influences  of  this  sort  of  official  connection,  upon  official  responsibility,  and  the  purity 
of  official  conduct.  It  cannot  be  necessary  to  pursue  the  subject  through  all  its  de- 
tails, nor  to  point  out  all  the  various  modes  in  which  these  deleterious  influences  may 
be  exerted. 

The  only  remaining  plan  which  has  been  submitted  for  consideration,  or  brought 
to  our  notice  in  the  course  of  debate,  is  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier,  (Mr. 
Scott.)  He  proposes  a  Council  of  advice  only,  possessing  no  power  to  control  in  any 
respect  the  discretion  of  the  Governor.  In  whatever  aspect  this  plan  may  be  viewed, 
it  appears  to  me  to  be  altogether  useless  and  unprofitable.  Will  you  compel  the 
Governor  to  consult  his  Council  in  all  cases,  or  will  you  leave  this  to  his  discretion  ? 
Let  us  view  the  subject  in  both  these  aspects. 

According  to  our  present  system,  it  is  true  as  a  general  rule,  that  the  Governor  can 
do  nothing  without  the  advice  of  his  Council.  We  are  informed,  however,  by  the 
gentleman  from  Amelia,  who  now  fills  that  station,  that  in  practice,  there  are  a  variety 
of  cases  in  which  the  Governor  acts  alone ;  cases  which  could  not  be  foreseen  by  the 
Legislature,  and  which  in  their  circumstances,  demand  this  departure  from  the  general 
rule.  If  we  require,  by  a  Constitutional  provision,  that  the  Governor  shall  in  all 
cases  consult  his  Council,  we  shall  run  the  hazard  of  destroying  the  efficiency  of  that 
department  in  a  large  class  of  cases,  which  require  the  utmost  promptness  in  decision 
and  action,  and  in  which  no  consultation  with  Council  can  ever  be  necessary.  If,  on 
the  other  hand,  we  require  such  consultation  in  particular  cases  only,  how,  I  would 
ask,  shall  we  discriminate  ?  It  is  obviously  impossible  to  do  so,  unless  we  can  look 
through  all  futurity,  and  provide  for  all  exigencies,  which  time,  and  the  changing 
relations  of  the  Government  may  produce.  In  this  view  of  the  subject,  we  have  a 
clear  advantage  in  preserving  the  present  organization  of  the  Executive.  The  prac- 
tice under  it  is  settled,  and  its  powers  and  duties  are  ascertained  by  time,  and  fixed 
by  the  long  acquiescence  of  the  country. 


DEBATES   or   THE  CONVENTION. 


585 


But,  Sir,  apart  from  all  these  considerations,  what  benefit  can  vre  promise  ourselves, 
from  corapellinor  the  Governor  to  consult  even  the  wisest  sages  of  the  land,  if  we 
leave  him  at  liberty  to  disregard  their  counsel  ?  After  all,  his  own  discretion  must  be 
his  only  guide,  and  our  only  security.  Even  if  no  Co\mcil  were  provided,  he  would 
be  at  liberty  to  consult  whom  he  pleased,  and  we  should  have  the  same  security  which 
this  proposition  offers,  that  he  would  consult  tliose  who  were  competent  to  advise  him, 
and  that  he  would  profit  by  their  counsel.  I  can  perceive  no  benefit  which  any  one 
can  promise  himself,  from  this  proposition,  except  in  this,  that  the  Council,  by  keeping 
a  record  of  the  measures  proposed  for  their  consideration,  might  bring  the  conduct  of 
the  Governor  to  the  notice  of  the  country,  and  thereby  provide  a  means  of  enforcing' 
the  responsibihties  of  his  office.  There  is  danger  that  we  may  be  deceived  by  the 
speciousness  of  this  idea.  What  vriU.  be  the  real  office  of  tliis  advising  Council? 
They  cannot  compel  the  Governor  to  act :  they  cannot  restrain  him  from  acting : 
thev  cannot  control  him  in  any  respect  whatever.  Their  sole  office  is  to  hear  the 
Gorernor.  while  he  announces  his  purposes  ;  to  express  their  own  opinions,  conscious 
that  no  one  is  compelled  to  respect  them ;  and  to  record  the  transaction  for  the  infor- 
mation of  the  country.  This  is  only  anotlier  name  for  spies  upon  the  Governor.  It 
seems  to  me  inevitable,  that  the  office  of  Councillor  must  soon  fall  into  discredit  under 
such  an  organization  as  this,  and  that  it  will  be  impossible  te  draw  to  it  such  talents 
and  qualifications,  as  to  give  it  either  dignity  or  usefulness.  And  even  if  such  conse- 
quences as  these  should  not  be  the  result,  in  what  respect,  permit  me  to  enquire,  can 
a  system  like  this  secure  responsibiUty  on  the  part  of  the  Governor .'  Suppose  that 
jou  have  all  the  information  which  this  listening  and  recording  Council  can  o-ive  you ; 
and  suppose,  if  you  please,  that  the  Governor  has,  in  hundreds  of  instances,  disre- 
garded tlieir  advice,  when  in  your  opinion,  he  ought  to  have  acted  upon  it.  What 
then  Have  you  not  expressly  authorised  him  to  disregard  it ;  and  will  you  punish 
him  for  exercising  that  very  discretion,  which  your  fundamental  law  compels  him  to 
exercise  ?  It  is  impossible.  Sir — from  the  very  nature  of  the  case,  it  is  impossible, 
that  responsibility  can  be  in  any  degree  secured  by  such  a  contrivance  as  this. 

We  are  yet  to  consider  this  scheme,  Sir,  as  leaving  it  discretionary  with  the  Gov- 
ernor, whether  to  consult  his  Council  or  not.  This  is,  in  other  words,  to  submit  it  to 
his  discretion,  whether  he  will  hate  a  Council  or  not.  I  will  not  detain  the  Com- 
mittee, by  pointino-  out  the  practical  absurdities  of  such  a  system  as  this.  You  allow 
the  Governor  to  consult  his  Council  or  not,  as  shall  seem  to  him  proper ;  and  if  he 
should  condescend  to  consult  them,  you  allow  him  to  follow  their  advice  or  not,  as 
shall  seem  to  him  proper.    What  is  such  a  Council,  other  than  a  name.= 

I  have  endeavoured  to  shew,  that  the  plan  now  before  us  provides  no  means  of  en- 
forcing responsibility  on  the  part  of  the  Governor.  It  is  worthy  of  remark,  liiat  it 
leaves  the  Councillors  themselves  equally  irresponsible.  It  is  their  office  to  advise: 
it  is  the  Governor's  office  to  act.  It  is  difficult  to  imagine  how  you  can  punish  a 
Councillor  for  giving  bad  advice,  when,  according  to  the  strict  theory  of  your  system, 
no  practical  consequences  can  ever  result  from  that  advice. 

If,  Sir.  it  be  admitted,  that  a  Council  of  State  in  some  form  or  other,  ought  to  be 
provided.  I  venture  to  hope,  that  none  of  those  which  have  been  reviewed,  and  which 
propose  to  change  the  character  of  that  body  as  now  existing,  will  meet  the  approba- 
tion of  the  Committee.  I  have  now  but  little  more  to  say  in  favour  of  the  plan  which 
I  have  felt  it  my  duty  to  submit.  The  Committee  will  perceive,  tliat  I  have  not  drawn 
out  that  plan  into  details.  It  is  my  object  to  submit  the  principle  only,  feeling  assured, 
that  if  it  shoiild  be  approved,  no  difficulty  can  arise  in  adapting  it  to  practice.  I  may 
safely  rest  the  defence  of  that  principle  on  the  arguments  we  have  already  heard. 
No  subject  has  been  more  ably  discussed,  nor  is  there  one  on  which  it  is  now  so  diffi- 
cult to  advance  a  new  idea.'  The  arguments  of  the  gentleman  from  Amelia,  (Mr. 
Giles,)  and  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  (Mr.  Leigh.)  have  com,pletely  occupied 
the  entire  ground,  and  left  to  those  who  may  follow  them,  nothincr  but  the  task  of 
recapitulation.  It  is  a  task  which  I  do  not  mean  to  undertake  ;  for,  arguments  which 
have  been  used  by  them,  would  lose  all  their  charms,  and  much  of  their  weight,  if 
detailed  by  me.  I  may  be  excused,  however,  for  reviving  in  the  minds  of  the  Com- 
mittee some  of  the  leadinof  topics  of  discussion,  convinced  tliat  the  able  arguments, 
by  which  they  were  illustrated  and  enforced,  will  be  revived  along  with  them. 

The  advantages  of  a  plural  Executive,  as  it  has  been  aptly  called,  have  been  so 
clearly  pointed  out,  that  the  strongest  prejudices  upon  that  subject  must  have  been 
beaten  down.  Whether  we  look  to  the  responsibihties  of  the  office ;  to  the  security 
which  it  affords  against  an  abuse  of  its  power  and  patronage:  to  the  purity  of  its 
action,  as  a  simple  Executive  of  the  laws;  to  its  peculiar  usefulness  in  retaining 
always  in  office  some  one  or  more  familiar  with  the  history  of  its  transactions,  and 
skilled  in  the  details  of  its  business;  to  the  simplicity  of  its  action,  as  tested  by  ex- 
perience ;  to  its  ample  guards  against  all  usurpation  of  power ;  to  its  pecuhar  adap- 
tation to  a  system,  which  professes  to  surround  hberty  with  every  rampart,  which  ihe 

74 


586 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


most  watchful  jealousy  can  contrive ;  above  all,  to  the  fact,  that  the  history  of  fifty- 
lour  years  does  not  afibrd  us  one  instance  of  a  usurpation  of  power,  and  scarcely  one 
of  serious  abuse.  When  we  consider  all  these  things,  as  they  were  impressed  upon 
us  by  the  oemleman  from  Chesterfield,  (Mr.  Leigh,)  we  ought  at  least  to  pause,  and 
to  pause  long,  before  we  exchange  such  a  system  for  any  untried  expedient.  Let  us 
not  forget,  that  the  practice  under  this  system  is  established  and  settled.  We  have 
seen  the  machine  at  work,  and  we  all  know  that  it  has  worked  well.  We  have  not 
the  same  security  for  any  other,  and  our  wisest  calculations  upon  that  subject  may  be 
disappointed  by  the  results. 

We  all  admit,  Mr.  President,  that  it  is  necessary  to  provide  a  Lieutenant-Governor, 
on  whom  the  duties  of  the  Executive  may  devolve  in  case  of  the  death,  resignation, 
or  absence  of  the  Governor,  or  whenever,  from  other  causes,  the  Governor  may  be 
unable  to  act.  We  have  already  felt  the  difficulty  of  assigning  to  this  office  any  du- 
ties whatever,  (when  not  acting  as  Governor.)  unless  we  make  him  a  Councillor  of 
State.  It  is  admitted,  that  he  must  have  a  salary,  and  we  do  not  wish  that  his  office 
should  be  a  sinecure.  The  plan  before  us  removes  all  difficulty  upon  this  subject.  A 
Councillor  of  State,  and  generally  the  ablest  and  most  experienced  among  them,  will 
be  the  Lieutenant-Governor.  He  will  succeed  to  the  office  of  the  Governor,  with  all  the 
advantages  of  ample  information,  derived  from  actual  practice  in  the  duties  of  the 
station.  Here  then,  is  the  best  material,  out  of  which  a  Lieutenant-Governor  can  be 
made,  a  material  alread}'-  shaped  to  our  hands,  and  one  which  does  not  cost  the  Trea- 
sury one  additional  penny. 

Before  I  entered  this  body,  Mr.  President,  I  partook  very  largely  of  the  hostility, 
which  prevails  so  generally  in  the  country,  against  the  present  Executive  Council.  I 
believe.  Sir,  that  1  did  not  duly  undei'stand  the  subject.  I  acknowledge,  that  my 
opinions  have  been  changed  by  the  arguments  which  1  have  heard  in  this  Committee. 
I  have  now  no  other  objection  to  the  existing  Council  than  this,  that  it  is  too  nume- 
rous, and  consequently  too  expensive.  This  objection  I  have  endeavoured  to  remove, 
in  the  sclieme  before  you.  For  myself,  I  am  at  all  times  in  favour  of  the  most  eco- 
nomical disbursement  of  the  public  money ;  but,  I  would  not  lightly  permit  conside- 
rations of  that  sort  to  interfere  with  a  wise  and  safe  organization  of  an  important 
department  of  the  Government.  True  economy  suggests  the  most  liberal  ideas  upon 
this  subject.  1  shall  not  fear,  that  the  Treasury  will  be  unprofitably  burthened,  if  it 
be  charged  with  no  more  than  the  necessary  expenses  of  wise,  safe,  efficient  and  free 
institutions.  It  is  not  easy  to  pay  too  high  a  price  for  such  blessings  as  these.  Sin- 
cerely-believing that  the  measure  now  before  you  will  contribute  its  lull  share  of  these 
blessings  to  our  common  country,  I  commit  it,  without  farther  comment,  to  its  fate. 

Mr.  Mercer  suggested  an  objection  to  Mr.  Upshur's  scheme ;  as  the  advice  of  the 
Council  was  to  remain,  as  at  present,  obligatory  on  the  Governor,  and  as  it  was  to 
consist  of  a  Lieutenant-Governor  and  two  Councillors,  any  two  of  whom  were  to 
constitute  a  quorum,  if  they  were  to  advise  him  against  his  ow^n  judgment  of  what 
was  right,  he  must  comply:  and  thus  it  might  happen  that  a  Lieutenant-Governor 
and  one  Councillor,  (constituting  a  majority  of  the  Council.)  might  rule  the  Gover- 
nor and  the  other  Councillor,  because  the  Governor  was  to  have  none  but  a  casting 
vote.  Here  then,  the  Governor  and  one  of  his  Council  would  be,  technically,  and  in 
effect,  a  minoritij. 

Mr.  Leigh  replied,  that  the  Governor  is  not  bound  to  do  whatever  the  Council  ad- 
vise him  to  do  ;  but  is  only  restrained  from  doing  what  they  oppose. 

Mr.  Mercer  admitted  the  distinction,  but  insisted  that  the  effect  would  still  be  as  he 
had  stated  ;  and  added,  that  the  Lieutenant-Governor  would  be  the  most  unfit  person 
in  the  world  as  an  adviser  of  the  Governor,  as  he  might  have  been  his  rival.  He 
preferred  the  plan  of  Mr.  Fitzliugh. 

Mr.  Wilson  now  renev.^ed  his  demand  for  a  division  of  the  question,  on  striking 
out  and  inserting  :  it  was  divided  accordingly  ;  and  the  question  being  on  striking  out, 

Mr.  Scott  expressed  his  wish  to  have  the  Council  organized  as  Mr.  Upshur  pro- 
posed, but  without  giving  the  advice  of  Council  a  binding  authority,  in  any  respect, 
upon  the  Governor.  He  gave  notice  that  if  the  motion  to  strike  out  succeeded,  and 
Mr.  Upshur's  amendment  should  then  be  inserted,  he  should  move  so  to  amend  it  as 
to  produce  the  etlect  he  had  mentioned. 

Mr.  Randolph  suggested  that  the  resolution  proposed  to  be  stricken  out,  contained, 
as  now  amended,  two  distinct  propositions — the  first  he  wished  to  retain,  the  second 
to  strike  out,  as,  according  to  the  best  of  his  knowledge  and  belief,  it  was  not  Engfish. 

The  Chair  decided  that  the  question  of  striking  out  could  not  be  so  sub-divided, 
but  the  gentleman  would  obtain  his  object  by  m^oving  to  re-insert  one  of  the  clauses, 
if  in  connexion  with  other  words. 

The  question  on  strikincr  out,  was  then  put,  and  decided  in  the  affirmative — Ayes 
47,  Noes  46. 

(Mr.  Madison  and  Mr.  Marshall,  aye.) 

So  the  Committee  struck  out  the  third  resolution  as  amended. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


587 


And  the  question  novr  being  put  on  inserting  Mr.  Upshur's  proposition  as  a  sub- 
stitute, 

]Mr.  Scott  moved  to  amend  it,  by  striking  from  it  the  words  who  shall  perform  the 
same  duties  as  the  present  Council;"  his  object  being  to  require  the  Governor  to 
possess  himself  of  tlie  advice  of  his  Council  in  all  matters  (except  these  of  his  mili- 
tary function  as  Commander-in-chief.)  but  not  to  bind  Mm  by  it. 

Mr.  Randolph  opposed  the  motion,  on  the  ground  that  what  the  present  duties  of 
the  Council  were,  was  well  known  and  established  ;  but  what  the  new  duties  to  be 
assigned  them  were,  could  not  be  known  till  those  duties  had  been  expressly  defined; 
and  no  man  could  tell  whether  the  Government  would  remain  in  existence  until 
then.  He  thought  they  had  had  experience  enougii  to  induce  them  never  to  depart  from 
the  law  as  adjudged  and  established.  He  was  for  what  was  sellled  and  certain,  and 
not  for  gettino"  at  ignotum  per  ignotius.  If  they  said,  that  the  duties  of  tlie  Council 
were  to  be  the  same  as  they  now  were,  the  meaning  was  known  and  understood  :  but, 
if  these  words  were  to  be  stricken  out,  the  Committee  would  immediatel}^  be  at  sea, 
and  a  long  course  of  adjudged  decisions  would  be  rendered  of  no  value. 

Mr.  Brodnax  suggested  that  the  Governor  was  now  not  compelled  to  follow  the 
advice  of  Council,  and  would  be  still  less  if  tlieir  number  should  be  reduced  from 
eight  to  two, 

Mr.  Scott  explained  his  object  to  be,  to  leave  the  Governor  free;  and  as  to  the  un- 
certainty of  meaning,  it  would  be  no  greater  tlian  at  present. 

The  question  was  now  taken  on  ]\Ir.  Scott's  amendment  to  !Mr.  Upshur's  proposi- 
tion for  a  Council,  and  decided  in  the  affirmative — Ayes  51. 

(Mr.  Madison  and  Mr.  Marshall,  aye.) 

INIr.  Wilson  moved  for  the  rising  of  tlie  Committee,  but  it  was  opposed  by  Mr. 
Claiborne,  and  lost — Ayes  34. 

iSIr.  Scott  moved  further  to  amend  Mr.  Upshur's  proposition,  b}-  strikino;  out  the 
parts  in  brackets,  [see  next  page.] 

It  was  agreed  to  without  debate, 

Mr.  Scott  then  moved  tlie  following  amendment : 
Resolved,  That  the  Governor  shall,  before  he  performs  any  act  in  his  official  capa- 
city other  than  as  Commander-in-chief,  take  the  advice  of  the  Executive  Council 
thereupon ;  but  he  shall  be  at  liberty  to  adopt  or  reject  the  same." 

Mr,  Tho.npson  was  opposed  to  the  amendment :  thinking,  that  if  the  State  were  to 
pay  so  dearly  for  having  this  advice  given  to  the  Governor,  the  least  he  could  do 
would  be  to  treat  it  with  sufficient  respect  to  be  governed  by  it. 

Mr.  Giles,  being  unable  from  hoarseness  to  go  at  large  into  the  debate,  sucrgested 
to  Mr.  Scott  that  the  words  of  his  amendment  went  far  beyond  what  he  presumed  to 
be  the  purpose  of  the  mo%-er.  It  restrained  the  Governor  from,  doing  any  act  what- 
ever without  the  advice  of  Council.  !Xow,  there  were  a  multitude  of  matters  of  form 
which  needed  no  such  advice,  such  as  the  authentication  of  documents,  &c.  &c. 

He  expressed  his  recrret  that  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier,  would  not  content  him- 
self with  what  had  worked  so  well  for  fifty-four  years,  but  would  aim  at  making  it 
absolutely  perfect,  and  in  the  effort  went  to  throw  cU  into  uncertainty  and  embarrass- 
ment. He  thought  the  remark  of  Mr.  Randolph  entitled  to  more  weight  than  had 
been  given  it,  when  he  had  spoken  of  changing  long  fixed,  organic  law.  ^Nlr.  G. 
again  briefly  explained  the  present  relations  between  the  Governor  and  Council,  and 
expressed  his  fears  of  the  embarrassino-  effect  of  Mr.  Scott's  amendment. 

Mt.  Scott  said,  that  he  had  come  to  the  Convention  persuaded  of  the  propriety  of 
abolishing  the  Council  altoo-ether ;  the  gentleman  from  Amelia.  (Mr  Giles,)  had  in- 
duced him  to  abandon  at  least  one  half  of  his  heresies  on  that  subject;  but  he  could 
not,  as  yet  at  least,  become  an  entire  convert.  It  was  very  possible  he  had  used 
words  too  large  in  their  meaning.  All  he  wanted  was,  to  secure  the  principle  of  the 
Governor's  entire  hberty  and  responsibility. 

Mr.  Leigh  referred  to  his  former  ariruments  in  behalf  of  the  Council  as  now  ex- 
isting. He  was  astonished  that  gentlemen,  whose  objection  against  it  was,  that  it 
was  a  useless  body,  should  propose  another  still  more  useless. 

He  remonstrated  with  earnestness  against  giving  the  Governor  advice  which  he 
might  disregard :  illustrated  its  practical  effect  in  making  of  contracts,  appointments, 
and  doing  other  official  acts  of  the  Execulive.  The  patronage  of  the  entire  Execu- 
tive of  Virginia  was  large  ;  it  was  not  felt,  because  so  much  divided  ;  but  if  concen- 
trated in  one  person,  (as  it  must  be,  if  the  Governor  was  perfectly  free.)  it  would 
speedily  be  felt  and  become  an  object  of  intrigue  and  strife. 

Mr.  L.  put.  in  a  stroncr  light,  the  consequences  of  composing  the  Council  of  the 
officers  of  Government,  already  loaded  with  business,  and  though  competent  to  their 
own  departments,  very  unsuitable  to  be  counsellors  of  the  Governor.  He  concluded 
by  declaring  iiimself  opposed  to  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Scott,  and  his  determinatiouj 
if  notliing  better  should  be  sugofested,  to  vote  away  the  whole  Council. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Scott,  the~Committee  now  rose. 


588 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


On  motion  of  Mr.  Leigh,  the  letter  from  the  Speaker  of  the  House  of  Delegates 
was  laid  on  the  table. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Scott,  the  Convention  resolved  to  meet  at  10  o'clock  to-morrow, 
and  take  a  recess  during  the  session  of  the  House  of  Delegates. 

The  House  then  adjourned. 


WEDNESDAY,  December  9,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Croes  of  the  Episcopal  Church. 

In  consequence  of  the  indisposition  of  Mr.  Monroe,  Mr.  P.  F.  Barbour  was  ap- 
pointed President  of  the  Convention,  pro  tcm. 

On  taking  the  Chair,  Mr.  Barbour  delivered  a  brief  address  in  nearly  the  follow- 
ing terms : 

Gentlemen  of^  the  Convention  : 

Whilst  I  tender  you  my  thanks,  for  the  manifestation  of  your  confidence,  in  elect- 
ing me,  as  President //?*o  tempore,  I  cannot  forbear  to  express  my  sincere  regret,  for 
the  cause  which  has  created  the  necessity  of  such  an  appointment. 

In  rising  to  address  you,  it  is  not  my  purpose  to  detain  you,  with  any  thing  like 
a  set  speech  :  but  only  to  say,  that  I  promise  zeal,  fidelity,  and  perfect  impartiality, 
in  the  station  to  which  you  have  just  called  me.  As  to  my  qualifications,  I  shall  say 
nothing;  for  as  on  the  one  hand,  self-commendation  would  be  wholly  unbecoming, 
so  on  the  other,  self-disparagement,  is  almost  always  regarded  as  uncandid.  1  pro- 
ceed, then,  to  the  discharge  of  the  arduous  duties  which  you  have  assigned  me,  with 
such  ability  as  I  possess,  relying  with  confidence,  upon  your  support,  when  I  shall 
be  right;  upon  your  indulgent  consideration,  when  I  may  be  wrong,  and  upon  your 
disposition  to  do  full  justice  to  my  efforts,  to  merit  the  honor  which  you  have  con- 
ferred upon  me. 

The  House  then  went  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  Gordon  of  Albemarle  in 
the  Chair;  and  proceeded  again  to  consider  the  third  resolution  of  the  Executive 
Committee,  wliich  is  in  the  following  words  :  "  Resolved,  That  the  Executive  Council, 
as  at  present  organized,  ought  to  be  abolished,  and  that  it  is  inexpedient  to  provide 
any  other  Executive  Council" — together  with  an  amendment  moved  thereto  by  Mr. 
Fitzhugh,  and  adopted ;  and  the  question  being  on  the  following  substitute  for  the 
whole,  moved  by  Mr.  Upshur: 

"  Resolved,  That  there  shall  be  appointed  an  Executive  Council  or  Council  of  State, 
consisting  of  a  Lieutenant-Governor,  and  two  Councillors,  [who  shall  perform  the 
same  duties,  and  in  all  other  respects  hold  the  same  relation  to  the  Governor  as  the 
present  Council  of  State.] 

"  The  said  Councillors  shall  be  elected  by  the  General  Assembly,  and  shall  con- 
tinue in  office  three  years,  but  may  be  re-elected  from  term  to  term.  All  vacancies 
occasioned  by  death,  resignation,  removal  from  the  Commonwealth,  or  other  disability, 
shall  be  supplied  by  the  General  Assembly. 

["  Two  of  the  said  Council  shall  form  a  quorum,  and  in  case  of  an  equal  division 
of  the  Council,  the  Governor  shall  have  the  casting  vote."] 

Mr.  Scott  moved  to  amend  it  by  substituting  therefor  the  following :  (being  a  mo- 
dification of  what  he  had  offered  yesterday,)  viz  : 

"  An  Executive  Council  consisting  of  three  members,  shall  be  chosen  by  of 
both  Houses  of  Assembly,  to  remain  in  office  for  three  years.  They  shall  annually 
choose  out  of  their  own  members  a  President,  who,  in  case  of  death,  inability,  or 
necessary  absence  of  the  Governor  from  the  Government,  shall  act  as  Governor. 
Their  proceedings  shall  be  entered  of  record  and  signed  by  tlie  members  present,  (to 
any  part  whereof  any  member  may  enter  his  dissent)  and  laid  before  the  General 
Assembly  when  called  for  by  them.  This  Council  may  appoint  their  own  Clerk,  who 
shall  have  a  salary  settled  by  law,  and  take  an  oath  of  secrecy  of  such  matters  as  he 
shall  be  directed  by  the  board  to  conceal.  At  the  end  of  one  year  after  their  first 
appointment,  one  Councillor  to  be  designated  by  lot  shall  go  out  of  office,  and  the  va- 
cancy shall  be  supplied  by  a  new  election.  At  the  end  of  the  next  year,  another  Coun- 
cillor, to  be  designated  in  like  manner,  shall  go  out  of  office,  and  the  vacancy  be  sup- 
plied by  a  new  election :  and  this  rotation  shall  be  continued  in  due  order  annually. 
The  Executive  Council  shall  stand  in  the  same  relation  to  the  Governor  as  the  Privy 
Council  or  Council  of  State  under  the  existing  Constitution,  except  that  it  shall  ad- 
vise merely,  and  not  controul  him." 

■Mr.  Upshur  said,  that  he  should  vote  against  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Scott,  and 
against  all  other  forms  of  a  Council,  unless  based  upon  the  same  principle  as  at  present. 
The  argument  was  exhausted,  and  he  should  not  attempt  to  renew  it.    According  to 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


689 


the  plan  now  proposed,  the  Governor  was  at  liberty  to  ask  the  advice  of  his  Council 
or  not,  and  when  that  advice  was  given,  he  was  at  liberty  to  follow  it  or  not  at  his  plea- 
sure. What  then  was  the  office  of  a  Councillor?  what  possible  good  could  arise  Irom 
having  such  a  body,  unless,  indeed,  it  might  be  to  keep  a  record,  in  order  to  shew 
when  the  Governor  had  consulted  them,  and  when  he  had  acted  contrary  to  their  ad- 
vice. What  was  the  value  of  such  a  record?  Cui  bono?  Was  it  in  order  to  censure 
the  Governor,  although  the  Constitution  would  allow  him  to  disregard  their  advice  ? 
Nay,  when  that  Constitution  exacted  of  him  as  a  duty  to  follow  his  own  judgment, 
when  tlie  advice  of  the  Council  happened  to  coincide  with  his  own  will,  might  he  not 
as  well  act  without  it?  and  if  it  did  not  so  coincide,  he  was  then  bound  to  go  against 
it.  To  constitute  such  a  Council,  would  be  feeing  three  men  to  sit  by  the  Governor, 
with  no  duty  on  earth  to  perform  but  that  of  spies  upon  his  action.  What  would 
such  Councillors  be  r  what  would  be  their  responsibility  ?  The  Governor  would  be 
left  as  perfectly  at  large,  as  if  they  had  no  existence.  He  might  perhaps,  for  form's 
sake,  lay  some  trivial  matters  betbre  them,  which  he  considered  as  of  little  conse- 
quence, and  concerning  which  there  could  be  but  one  opinion.  But  in  all  cases  of 
serious  responsibility,  if  the  Governor  had  reason  to  believe  that  his  Council  difiered 
from  him  in  opinion,  he  would  not  ask  their  advice  at  all.  But  suppose  that  the  Con- 
stitution should  make  it  obligatory  upon  the  Governor  to  apply  for  the  advice  of  his 
Council  in  all  cases,  the  result  would  be  a  great  waste  of  time  :  for,  as  the  gentleman  ^ 
from  Amelia  had  stated,  there  were  a  number  of  cases  of  the  mere  forms  of  office,  such 
as  the  authentication  of  papers,  &c.  in  which  the  Governor  acted  on  his  own  respon- 
sibility. But  under  such  a  regulation,  he  could  not  even  sign  the  commission  of  the 
lowest  officer,  nor  authenticate  the  most  ordinary  paper,  without  first  calling  his 
Council  togetiier.  They  must  advise  in  all  cases  whatever,  but  in  many  cases  it 
would  be  but  pouring  advice  into  deaf  ears.  Such  a  Council  he  should  consider  as 
an  absolute  nuisance,  and  should  therefore  vote  against  the  amendment. 
Mr.  Leigh  of  Chesterlield.  now  rose,  and  spoke  nearly  as  follows : 
Mr.  Chairrnan, — When  this  subject  was  before  the  Committee  the  other  day,  I  de- 
livered my  sentiments  upon  it  somewhat  at  large ;  and  I  do  not  mean  to  inflict  upon 
the  Committee  a  repetition  of  what  I  then  said.  But,  having  always  regarded  the 
Executive  Council  as  a  most  wise  and  valuable  institution ;  an  institution,  which  has 
had  the  rare  felicity  to  accomplish,  fully  and  exactly,  the  purpose  designed  by  its 
founders,  of  weakening  the  Executive  power  by  division,  and  thus  rendering  it  in- 
capable of  mischief,  without  impairing  its  capacity  to  do  good,  and  the  singular  fate 
to  be  condemned  for  the  very  reason  that  it  has  answered  its  original  design — to  be 
chiefly  objected  to,  because  it  destroys  the  independent  power,  and  consequently  (it 
is  inferred)  the  responsibility  of  the  Governor — I  am  bound  to  make  every  effort  to 
preserve  it.  I  think  there  are  some  views  of  the  subject,  which  the  gentleman  front 
Fauquier  (Mr.  Scott)  has  not  yet  fully  considered,  and  which  it  behoves  him,  and  all 
of  us,  to  consider  well,  before  we  consent  to  abolish  the  principle  of  this  institutioru 
I  am  perfectly  aware,  that  what  I  have  to  say,  will  have  no  weight  whatever  with 
those  who  are  opposed  to  a  Council  in  any  shape,  and  who,  on  principle,  prefer  a  sin- 
gle to  a  plural  Executive.  To  such  gentlemen,  I  have  no  remarks  to  offer  worthy  of 
their  attention.  There  is  a  radical  diversity  of  opinion  between  me  and  them;  and  I 
despair  of  producing  any  impression  whatever  on  their  minds.  I  address  myself  to 
those,  who  are  of  opinion,  that  to  demolish,  is  not  the  best  way  to  mend ;  who  believe, 
that  the  work  of  true  reform  consists  in  the  correction  of  abuses,  and  the  prevention 
of  anticipated  evils ;  and  who,  in  pursuit  of  those  ends,  will  give  their  care  to  the 
preservation  of  all  that  is  sound  and  valuable  in  our  political  fabric.  W^ith  gentlemen 
of  this  description,  (and  I  believe  there  are  many  such  in  this  Assembly),  it  is  possi- 
ble what  I  have  now  to  say  may  have  some  influence  to  save  the  Executive  Council 
from  destruction. 

It  must  have  occurred  to  every  man  who  has  bestowed  any  thought  upon  it,  that 
the  wise  construction  of  the  Executive,  is  the  most  difficult  problem  m  forming  a  Re- 
publican Government.  In  a  Government  like  that  of  Virginia,  intended  chiefly,  if 
not  wholly,  for  internal  purposes,  the  Executive  must  be  organized  on  principles  al- 
together different  from  those  that  should  obtain  in  a  Government  designed  for  the 
management  of  foreign  affairs — in  which,  every  thing  must  be  regulated  with  due  re- 
gard to  the  relation  which  the  nation  is  to  sustain  to  other  nations.  It  is  notorious, 
that  the  Convention,  which  framed  the  Federal  Constitution,  found  in  the  formation 
of  the  Executive  Department,  the  principal  difficulties  they  had  to  encounter.  Two 
objects  were  to  be  accomplished — both  of  vital  importance — to  preserve  a  Republican 
form  of  Government,  and  therefore  to  discard  every  thing  like  hereditary  power;  and 
to  provide  such  an  Executive,  as  should  be  suited  to  the  management  of  the  foreign 
relations  of  the  country,  in  war  as  well  as  in  peace.  For  this  latter  object  alone  was 
the  President  of  the  United  States  armed  with  powers,  such  as  hardly  any  man  in  the 
Federal  Convention  would  ever  have  thought  of  giving  to  the  Governor  of  a  State. 
JVe  are  not  charged  with  the  duty  of  forming  an  Executive  suited  to  conduct  foreign 


590 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


relations — foreign  intercourse,  negotiation  and  war:  and  so  long  as  Virginia  remains 
a  member  of  the  Federal  Union,  we  shall  wisely  (for  we  can  safely)  make  her  Go- 
vernor a  mere  agent  to  execute  the  laws,  without  an}^  independent  power  whatever. 
We  were  told,  indeed,  by  the  gentleman  from  Frederick  (Mr.  Powell)  that  we  ought 
to  look  forward  to  a  dilFerent  state  of  things — altliough  he  assured  us  (and  1  believe 
him)  that  none  would  deprecate  such  a  state  of  things  more  than  himself^ — that  we 
ought  to  look  to  that  disastrous  state  of  things,  when  our  Federal  Union  shall  be  dis- 
solved ;  in  which  event,  the  State  Executive  ought  to  be  indued  with  powers  to 
manage  affairs  with  foreign  nations,  since  our  sister  States  will  then  stand  in  that  re- 
lation towards  us.  But,  Sir,  whosoever  shall  go  to  work  now,  to  form  an  Executive 
adapted  to  such  a  state  of  things,  as  cannot  happen  until  the  bands  of  this  Union  shall 
be  dissolved,  and  new  combinations  of  the  States  shall  be  formed — if  all  shall  not  be 
consolidated  into  one  vast  empire,  without  any  reference  to  existing  boundaries — 
when  we  may  have  one  Government  North  of  tlie  Hudson,  another  between  the  Hud- 
son and  the  Potomac,  another  in  the  South,  and  another  in  the  West — will  undertake 
that  to  which  no  human  wisdom  is  competent.  He  will  attempt  to  provide  for  a  state 
of  things,  which  depends  wholly  on  the  providence  of  God,  who  may  save  us  in  his 
mercy,  or  punish  us  in  his  wrath.  As  to  human  agency,  when  that  direful  state  of 
things,  which  gentlemen  talk  of  so  familiarly,  shall  come  upon  us — when  this  great 
political  Confederacy  shall  be  broken  up,  and  separated  into  its  original  atoms,  and 
new  political  beings  shall  rise  out  of  its  ruins,  give  me  leave  to  say,  that  the  exigen- 
cies of  the  times  must  and  will  dictate  the  forms  of  the  Executive  Government;  and, 
just  as  surely  as  man  must  still  remain  man,  the  sword,  that  most  energetic  of  re- 
formers, will  have  a  large  share  in  settling  the  new  forms  of  Government,  whether 
military  despotism,  or  mixed  monarchy,  or  a  Republic.  As  no  man  can  foreknow 
our  condition,  so  no  man  can  now  provide  for  it;  one  thing  only  is  certain,  that  the 
sword  will  be,  or  will  essay  to  be,  the  principal  law-giver.  And  then,  our  only  hope 
for  the  preservation  of  freedom,  will  be  found  in  the  universal  prevalence  of  the  com- 
mon law,  with  its  open  courts  of  justice,  viva  voce  evidence,  and  jury  trial.  In  con- 
stituting an  Executive  for  Virginia,  I  can  only  look  at  her  present  condition,  as  one 
of  the  members  of  the  existing  Federal  Union  :  I  will  not,  because  1  cannot,  look  to 
a  future  and  wholly  altered  state  of  the  Commonwealth.  To  me  it  seems,  (I  mean  no 
disrespect  to  those  who  differ  from  me  in  opinion),  that  man  could  undertake  no  task 
more  presumptuous,  none  which  lies  farther  beyond  the  bounds  of  human  wisdom, 
than  to  make  provision  in  182D,  for  a  dissolution  of  the  United  States,  supposing  it 
shall  happen  a  hundred,  fifty,  or  even  five  years  hence.  No,  Sir — our  duty  is  to  frame 
an  Executive  for  Virginia,  as  Virginia  is  now;  an  Executive  adapted  to  the  ordinary 
administration  of  our  laws,  and  to  the  conduct  of  our  internal  affairs.  What  sort  of 
an  Executive  ought  that  to  he?  I  answer,  one  possessing  the  smallest  degree  of 
power  consistent  with  the  due  execution  of  the  laws.  If  the  Executive  has  power 
enough  for  that  purpose,  we  want  no  more.  That  is  the  problem  we  have  to  solve. 
Now  I  pray  gentlemen — instead  of  exercising  their  ingenuity,  in  forming  new  and 
untried  plans,  and  calculating  the  effects  of  them — plans,  concerning  which  all  rea- 
soning at  present  must  -be  mere  speculation — plans,  which  at  last  can  only  be  proved 
by  experience — to  ask  themselves,  whether  we  have  not  a  system  now,  which  expe- 
rience, and  long  experience  too,  has  approved,  as  well  adapted  to  our  circumstances, 
and  perfectly  fitted  for  all  useful  practical  purposes  ?  And  then  I  ask  them,  as  states- 
men— and,  especially,  I  ask  my  friend  from  Fauquier  (Mr.  Scott)  for  whose  practical 
judgment  I  have  always  the  utmost  deference — whether  any  prudent  statesman  ought 
to  be  willing  to  discard  the  old  and  tried  system  for  any  new  project,  however  plausible 
This  is  the  true  and  fair  state  of  the  question.  Here  is  the  ground  on  which  I  take 
my  stand.  I  find  an  existing  Executive  in  Virginia,  which,  under  all  circumstances, 
amidst  all  the  difficulties  of  war,  and,  in  peace,  amidst  the  utmost  violence  of  party 
contests,  has  well  performed  its  part — upon  wliich  all-trying  time  has  passed  its  judg- 
ment— which  never,  in  a  single  instance,  has  been  guilty  or  even  charged  with  cor- 
ruption, or  usurpation,  or  attempt  at  usurpation.  I  doubt  whether  more  can  be  said 
for  any  Executive  on  earth  :  Sir,  it  is  rare  praise  ;  but  it  is  no  more  than  its  just  due. 
(I  shall  not  undertake  to  defend  the  existing  Government — I  would  not  undertake  to 
defend  any  set  of  men,  either  in  public  or  private  stations — from  the  charge  of  having 
committed  errors).  And  now  we  have  an  amendment  offered  to  our  consideration, 
which  proposes  to  abolish  the  fundamental  principle  of  this  Executive.  I  trust  in  the 
good  sense  and  prudence  of  this  body,  that  it  will  not  be  abolished — that  it  will  only 
be  reformed.  Reform  is  obvious  and  easy ;  and  I  am  ready  for  reform ;  but  not  for 
destruction. 

There  is  a  set  of  gentlemen — the  phrase  may  be  offensive,  v/hich  I  do  not  mean, 
and  I  retract  it — there  are  several  gentlemen  in  this  House,  who  are  of  opinion,  that 
we  oug-ht  to  provide  for  the  Governor  an  advisory  Council — a  distinct  body  so  called, 
whom  it  shall  be  his  duty  to  consult,  without  making  it  his  duty  to  follow  or  respect 
its  advice  :  while  others  think,  that  the  Heads  of  Departments  should  be  required  to 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


591 


advise  the  Governor,  when  he  shall  think  proper  to  ask  their  advice,  leaving  him  at 
full  liberty  to  take  such-advice  or  not,  as  he  thinks  proper.  I  suppose  there  must  be 
some  other  Heads  of  Departments  than  those  we  now  have,  which  are  to  be  created 
for  the  purpose.  The  gentleman  from  Fairlax  (Mr.  Fitzhugh)  intimated  an  opinion^ 
the  otlier  day,  as  the  ground  of  his  preference  lor  this  Cabmet  Council  of  Heads  of 
Departments,  tliat  the  Governor  ought  to  be  made  more  independent  of  the  Legisla- 
ture, than  he  now  is.  I  migiit  possibly  agree  with  the  gentleman,  if  he  had  assigned 
any  reason,  why  he  wished  to  have  the  Executive  more  independent;  if  he  had  shewn 
any  good  purpose  which  would  be  thereby  eflected.  This  he  did  not  even  attempt. 
There  exists,  1  tiiink,  a  misunderstanding  of  that  principle  of  the  Bill  of  Rights,  which 
declares  that  the  Departments  of  Government  ought  to  be  kept  separate  and  distinct. 
It  does  not  mean,  that  the  Executive  ought  to  be  wholly  unconnected  with,  and  inde- 
pendent of  the  Legislature,  or  that  the  oliicers  of  the  Executive  should  not  be  appoint- 
ed by  the  Legislature.  It  means  no  more  than  this — that  the  same  functionaries,  who 
exercise  the  whole  Executive  power,  shall  not  at  the  same  time  exercise  the  whole 
Legislative  power.  The  principle  is  not  new :  it  was  not  new,  when  it  was  embodied 
in  the  Bill  of  Rights:  it  is  a  maxim  of  Montesquieu;  and  you  will  find  it  thoroughly 
examined  and  explained  in  the  47th  number  of  the  Federalist.  Why  is  the  Executive 
to  be  made  independent.''  to  enable  it  to  resist  the  Legislative  will.''  to  perform  any 
act  without  the  Legislative  authority  .''  There  is  not  a  man  here,  to  whom  if  you  put 
the  question,  "  Will  you  have  a  Governor  more  independent,  in  order  that  he  may  do 
any  material  act  without  the  sanction  of  iaw.''"  who  will  not  at  once  answer.  No. 
"Why  then  should  tlie  Governor  be  more  independent.''  The  least  reflection  must  sa- 
tisfy gentlemen,  that  they  cannot  contrive  to  make  hiin  more  independent  of  the  Le- 
gislature, unless  they  give  him  power  to  resist  the  Legislative  will,  to  omit  to  do  what 
the  laws  require  to  be  done,  or  to  do  what  the  laws  do  not  direct.  I  repeat  what  I 
have  said  once  before,  that  to  give  any  such  independence  to  the  Governor,  as  shall 
enable  him  to  do  any  official  act  without  authority  of  law,  i.s  to  mingle  a  spice  of  mo- 
narchy in  the  Constitution.  1  use  the  word  in  its  genuine  English  sense.  To  con- 
stitute monarchy  ,  it  is  not  necessary  that  the  ofiice  of  Chief  Magistrate  should  be  he- 
reditary, or  that  it  should  be  held  for  life  :  wherever  he  has  a  rightful  power  to  act  with- 
out authority  of  law,  there  is  pure  monarchy,  though  he  rule  but  for  a  single  year,  or 
for  a  day.  The  Constitution  of  the  Executive  of  a  Government  intrusted  with  the 
foreign  relations  of  a  nation  (1  repeat)  ought,  in  the  very  nature  of  things,  to  be  widely 
diiferent  Irom  that  of  the  Executive  of  a  Government  intended  to  manage  the  inter- 
nal concerns  of  a  State.  We  want  an  Executive  of  the  latter  kind.  The  other  ought 
to  be  armed  with  larger  powers.  If  I  were  a  subject  of  Great  Britain,  I  should  up- 
hold the  monarchy :  1  doubt  whether  that  nation  could  contend  with  the  military  spi- 
rit of  France,  without  a  monarchical  Executive.  If  her  form  of  Government  were  , 
like  that  of  Virginia,  or  of  the  United  States,  exposed  as  she  is  to  sudden  attack  from 
a  neighbour  so  near,  so  powerful,  so  active,  so  warlike,  she  would  hardly  be  able  to 
defend  herself  in  any  sudden  emergency;  and  the  agitation  of  every  election  would 
expose  her  to  dangers  from  without,  consequent  upon  commotions  within,  which  would 
soon  end  in  her  destruction.  The  Government  of  France  has  been,  at  all  times  (even 
the  republic  of  France  was)  a  military  Government,  dangerous  to  all  Governments  in 
the  neighbourhood,  and  particularly  dangerous  to  free  Governments.  The  republican 
institutions  of  the  United  States  have  been  dictated  by  the  character  of  the  people,  and 
the  peculiar  happiness  of  their  geographical  situation.  But  if  I  had  to  form  an  Execu- 
tive for  the  United  States,  I  should  not  constitute  it  like  the  Government  of  Virginia  : 
I  should  feel  the  necessity  of  giving  it  more  power,  in  order  to  fit  it  to  its  ends.  And 
here  is  the  difference  between  the  principles  I  maintain,  and  those  which  the  gentle- 
man from  Frederick  (Mr.  Powell.)  would  have  us  act  on  :  he  does  not,  I  think,  pay 
sufiicient  regard  to  the  peculiar  functions  of  the  State  Government  of  Virginia,  con- 
sidered as  a  member  of  the  Federal  Union.  I  hold  politics  to  be  the  science  of  cir- 
cumstances. 

Let  us  now  see  what  will  be  the  immediate  effect  of  the  amendment  proposed  by 
the  gentleman  from  Fauquier  (Mr.  Scott.)  There  is  something  equivocal  in  the  latter 
part  of  it,  which  I  am  sure  he  does  not  intend,  and  I  only  mention  it  that  he  may 
make  it  explicit.  It  proposes  a  Council,  whose  wisdom  the  Governor  shall  be  bound 
to  call  to  his  aid,  witliout  being  bound,  v.^hen  he  shall  get  their  advice,  to  comply  with 
it.  JNow,  I  ask  that  gentleman,  in  the  first  place,  whether  he  does  not  perceive  that 
this  arrangement  would,  at  the  Governor's  will  and  pleasure,  place  the  whole  Execu- 
tive power  of  the  State  in  the  Governor  alone  1  Does  he  not  see,  that  the  practical 
operation  of  the  principle  would  be  to  make  the  character  of  that  entire  Department 
of  the  Government,  dependent  on  the  personal  character  of  the  Governor If  he 
should  chance  to  be  a  modest  man,  much  more  if  a  timid  man,  (and  political  courage 
is  much  more  rare  than  personal),  he  will  follow  the  advice  of  his  Council  in  all  cases, 
and  shield  himself  under  it  from  all  responsibility.  But  if,  on  the  contrary,  the  Go- 
vernor should  be  of  a  firm  and  spirited  character,  and  much  more  if  there  should  be 


592 


DEBATES  OP  THE  CONVENTION. 


any  obstinacy  in  his  disposition,  he  may  indeed  ask  the  advice  of  his  Council,  but 
when  he  has  received  it,  he  will  give  it  to  the  winds.  And  then  comes  the  question 
put  by  the  gentleman  from  Northampton  (Mr.  Upshur),  Will  you  have  this  advice  of 
Council  recorded,  only  that  it  may  appear  that  the  Governor  disregarded  it?  Would 
you  impeach  him  for  not  abiding  by  it,  when  you  have  expressly  provided,  that  he 
may  disregard  it,  if  he  pleases  to  do  so.'' 

I  ask  my  friend  from  Fauquier  to  consider  another  thing.  There  were  several  valu- 
able purposes,  which  the  framers  of  the  present  Constitution  designed  to  accomplish 
by  this  institution  of  the  Executive  Council:  and  one  of  those  objects  was,  to  preserve 
a  continuity  of  knowledge,  in  the  Executive  Department.  If,  to  accomplish  this  ob- 
ject, we  shall  abolish  the  Council,  and  provide  that  the  Executive  duties  shall  be  dis- 
tributed among  different  Departments  (which  some  gentlemen  think  the  most  eligible 
plan),  each  of  the  Heads  of  those  Departments  may  acquire  a  knowledge  of  the  busi- 
ness of  his  particular  Department ;  but  the  duties  of  all  will  be  merely  ministerial,  almost 
mechanical ;  none  of  them  will  be  statesmen ;  none  of  them  will  acquire  a  general 
knowledge  of  the  whole  business  of  the  Executive.  But  that  is  what  is  wanted.  Be- 
sides, to  create  Executive  Departments,  merely  to  avoid  the  erection  of  an  Executive 
Council,  were  an  awkward  expedient.  Then,  as  to  an  advisory  Council,  as  it  is 
called — a  Council  to  advise  the  Governor,  and  a  Governor  bound  to  ask  but  not  to 
take  advice — it  is  obvious,  that  the  members  of  such  a  Council  will  lie  under  little  or 
no  responsibility,  and  will  have  hardly  any  motive  to  apply  themselves  to  the  acqui- 
sition of  a  general  knowledge  of  Executive  affairs ;  and  that,  unless  the  members  of 
the  Council,  or  some  of  them,  remain  in  office  longer  than  the  Governor,  every  Go- 
vernor will  have  to  commence  his  administration,  without  any  knowledge  of  the  de- 
tails of  Executive  business,  and  with  a  Council  to  advise  with,  as  uninformed  as  him- 
self. Gentlemen  who  have  not  reflected  on  the  subject,  cannot  form  an  idea  of  the 
inconvenience.  If  you  will  ask  any  man  that  has  ever  filled  tlie  office  of  Governor  of 
Virginia,  whether  when  he  first  came  into  office,  he  did  not  rely  almost  wholly  upon 
his  Council,  for  all  the  details  of  business,  I  venture  to  affirm,  that  his  answer  will  be 
in  the  affirmative.    It  must  be  so  in  the  nature  of  things. 

Sir,  our  fathers  took  it  into  their  heads  (very  simple  heads  as  some  think,  very  wise 
ones  in  my  opinion),  that,  as  it  would  be  necessary  to  confide  much  patronage  to  the 
Executive,  the  only  way  to  render  it  harmless,  would  be  to  divide  it.  But  if  the 
scheme  of  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier  shall  prevail,  all  public  contracts,  and  all 
Executive  appointments,  will  depend  absolutely  upon  the  will  of  the  Governor,  The 
Council  is  merely  to  give  advice  :  it  is  to  possess  no  actual  power  or  controul :  of 
■course,  the  whole  patronage  of  the  State  will  be  vested  in  the  hands  of  the  Governor. 
Look  at  the  amount  of  patronage,  which  is  now  exercised  by  the  Governor  and  Coun- 
cil, almost  without  being  felt  or  known  to  exist.  Not  to  enumerate  the  appointments 
to  all  the  lesser  offices,  I  only  desire  gentlemen  to  reflect  that  the  Executive  of  Virgi- 
nia lets  out  all  contracts  for  public  works.  This  building,  in  which  we  are  now  sit- 
ting, was  erected  by  contracts  made  by  the  Executive  :  so  was  the  Armory :  so  was 
the  Penitentiary.  The  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier  will,  in  effect,  place  all 
:this  patronage  in  the  hands  of  a  single  individual. 

Much  has  been  said  of  Legislative  caucuses,  got  up  to  dispose  of  offices  :  but  I  never 
heard  of  any  caucusing  about  the  election  of  a  Governor,  for  the  simple  reason  that 
liis  office  has  no  emolument  to  tempt  avarice,  no  power  to  tempt  ambition,  no  patron- 
age to  give  influence.  But  give  him  the  patronage,  which  this  amendment  proposes 
to  give  him  ;  let  him  be  the  person  to  whom  alone  all  must  look  for  profitable  employ- 
ments, and  more  profitable  contracts  ;  and  you  will  soon  see  a  different  state  of  things. 
It  will  make  little  odds,  whether  he  shall  be  elected  by  the  people  or  by  the  Legisla- 
ture :  the  increase  of  his  power  and  patronage,  is  the  substance  of  the  change.  And 
the  first  effect  of  that  change  will  be,  that  every  newspaper  in  the  Commonwealth  will 
be  filled  with  what  they  call  discussions  of  the  merits  of  the  several  candidates  for  the 
office.  Let  any  gentleman  look  at  the  newspapers  of  Pennsylvania,  or  of  New-York, 
or  of  Kentucky,  for  some  time  previous  to  an  election  of  Governor,  and  note  the  ac- 
counts there  given  of  the  candidates  for  the  office.  If  you  look  at  the  Pennsylvania 
papers,  (as  I  have  often  done  out  of  curiosity),  which  have  been  opposed  to  the  candi- 
dates that  have  been  elected,  and  take  their  word  for  it,  you  must  believe,  that,  since 
the  time  of  M'Kean,  there  has  not  been  a  Governor  in  that  Stale,  who  was  not  the 
veriest  fool  in  existence.  But  look  at  the  papers  on  the  other  side,  and  you  will  find 
the  same  persons  metamorphosed  into  paragons  of  wisdom.  It  is  a  peculiarity  of  my 
nervous  system,  that  I  loathe  all  strong  perfumes  almost  as  much  as  stinks,  (I  can 
think  of  no  politer  word  that  would  convey  the  thought  in  its  full  force)  ;  and  1  do  not 
know  which  is  the  more  offensive  to  my  moral  sense,  fulsome  panegyric,  or  coarse 
abuse.  New-York  indeed  does  not  appear  to  have  been  so  cursed  with  fools  for  Go- 
vernors, as  her  neighbour  Pennsylvania,  (I  mean  according  to  the  newspapers)  ;  but 
she  seems  to  have  been  worse  off;  for,  all  her  Governors,  v/ithout  any  exception,  have 
been  the  rankest  knaves  they  could  possibly  find.    Sir,  it  was  the  saying  of  a  very 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


593 


wise  man,  that  the  Government  of  these  United  States  was  of  a  kind  never  yet  de- 
scribed: that  it  was  a  newspaper  Government.  Tiie  newspapers  not  only  claim  to 
discuss  the  merits  of  all  public  measures,  and  all  competitors  for  office,  but  to  dictate 
measures,  and  to  direct  our  elections — the  only  check  on  their  power,  consisting  in 
their  rival  claims — these  applauding  their  favorites  to  the  skies,  and  those  damning 
them  to  hell  without  remorse.  If  any  tliink  this  an  exaggeration,  I  only  ask  him  to  re- 
member the  late  Presidential  election.  I  am,  Sir,  particularly  anxious  to  avoid  all 
newspaper  agency  in  the  election  of  the  Chief  Magistrate  of  Virginia;  and,  with  that 
view  (among  others)  to  reduce  the  power  and  patronage  of  that  office  to  the  lowest 
point  I  possibly  can. 

There  was  published,  not  long  ago,  an  entertaining  work,  which  pubhc  rumour  as- 
cribes to  one  of  your  own  constituents,^  called  ^3  voyage  to  the  Moon;  in  which  the 
voyaorer  gives  an  account  of  an  election  there  which  he  was  present  at.  He  saw  drawn 
up  on  the  public  square,  in  opposite  confronting  ranks, between  which  the  candidates, 
and  their  friends,  and  all  the  electors,  were  obliged  to  pass,  a  set  of  little  fellows,  called 
Syringe  boys  :  each  with  a  syringe  in  his  hand,  and  two  bottles  hanging  on  either  side  ; 
one  full  of  a  black  liquor,  foul  and  stinking — the  other  containing  a  white  and  highly 
perfumed  liquor,  so  sweet  to  the  smell  as  to  produce  faintness.  The  syringes  were 
their  weapons,  and  the  bottles  contained  their  ammunition.  When  either  candidate,  or 
any  of  his  friends  appeared,  the  syringe  boys  of  the  one  party,  were  sure  to  empty 
their  phials  of  perfume  upon  the  side  of  his  person  next  to  them,  and  those  of  the 
other  to  pour  torrents  of  the  black  liquid  upon  him — so  that  the  odour  in  which  you 
would  find  the  party  squirted  at,  depended  on  the  side  on  which  you  happened  to 
approach  him.  If  nobody  else  came  in  their  way,  the  opposing  ranks  turned  their 
arms  against  each  otlier,  just  to  keep  their  hands  in.  And  when  the  voyager  asked 
why  these  mischievous  boys  were  tolerated,  he  was  told,  that  it  was  an  ancient  prac- 
tice, to  which  the  people  were  wedded,  and  nobody  dared  to  disturb  them.  The  voy- 
ager does  not  (that  I  remember)  note  two  pecviliarities  in  the  lunar  syringe  boys, 
which  mark  the  conduct  of  our  sublunary  gentlemen  of  the  squirt — the  one  is,  that, 
upon  the  great  body  of  electors,  our  sj-ringe  boys  never  squirt  any  but  the  sweet  wa- 
ter, though  they  go  near  to  drown  them  with  that — the  other,  that  when  they  direct 
their  little  engines  against  each  other,  they  generally  fill  only  from  the  black  bottle ; 
so  that  approach  one  of  them  which  side  you  may,  you  are  almost  sure  to  find  him  in 
bad  odour. 

I  have,  in  common  with  the  rest  of  my  countrymen,  been  always  in  the  habit  of 
regarding  the  freedom  of  tlie  press  as  the  most  inestimable  of  blessings — but  there  is 
no  good  without  alloy — the  freedom  of  the  press  is  indeed  indispensible ;  but  the 
license  into  which  our  daily  press  has  degenerated,  is  an  evil  almost  beyond  endu- 
rance; and,  after  long  observation,  and  anxious  reflection,  I  find  myself  at  a  loss  to 
say,  whether  its  freedom  is  more  a  blessing,  or  its  licentiousness  a  curse.  Our  press 
is  active  and  powerful  alike  in  disseminating  truth  and  error.  In  one  view,  I  am 
ready  to  say,  that  our  free  institutions  could  not  exist  without  it ;  in  another,  it  seems 
to  me  to  be  the  poison  of  free  Government.  In  my  reflections  on  this  subject,  my 
mind  has  often  recurred  to  those  lines  of  Pope's  Homer: — 

"  Two  urns  by  Jove's  high  throne  have  ever  stood  ; 
The  source  of  e^il  one,  and  one  of  good — 
From  these  the  cup  of  mortal  man  he  fills  j 
Blessings  to  these,  to  those  distributes  ills  ; 
To  most  he  mingles  both — the  wretch  decreed 
To  taste  the  bad  unmixed,  is  curs'd  indeed — 
Pursued  by  want,  by  meagre  famine  driven, 
He  wanders  outcast  both  of  Earth  and  Heaven" — 

I  forget  the  rest;  but  this  is  enough  for  my  purpose.  To  nations,  in  which  the  press 
is  enslaved.  Providence  has  filled  their  portion  from  the  bitter  urn.  A  free  press,  bold 
without  license,  active  without  being  factious,  busy  without  being  venal,  is  meted  from 
the  urn  of  unmixed  good.  But  licentiousness,  faction  and  corruption,  in  the  press, 
are  bitter  waters.  Every  man  that  loves  his  country,  ought  to  pra}-  Heaven,  that  they 
may  not  prevail  to  overflowing;  every  wise  Statesman  ought  to  do  his  utmost, to  pre- 
vent another  drop  from  being  mingled  in  our  cup.  There  is  too  much  already — too 
much  !  Let  us  be  careful  not  to  aggravate  the  vices  of  the  press,  by  bringing  them 
to  bear  on  the  election  of  the  Chi^ef  Magistrate  of  this  ancient  and  peaceful  Com- 
monwealth; which  we  shall  surely  do,  if  we  increase  the  patronage,  the  influence, 
the  importance  of  the  office.  The  Executive  power  and  patronage  cannot  be  annihi- 
lated :  but  they  may  be  rendered  innocuous  by  dividing  them  :  the}'  have  been  ren- 
dered innocuous,  under  the  existing  Constitution,  by  the  institution  of  the  Executive 
Council;  an  institution,  wliich  having  worked  exactly  according  to  the  original  de- 


*  Air.  Gordon  of  Albemarle  was  iu  the  Chair. 

75 


594 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


sign,  has  afforded  the  surest  proof  of  the  wisdom  of  its  founders.  I  know  of  no  other 
political  institution  that  has  proved  the  same  in  practice  as  in  theory. 

I  have  been  told  a  thousand  times,  since  this  Convention  assembled — I  do  not  mean 
in  open  debate,  nor  do  1  mean  that  I  have  been  so  told  by  the  gentleman  from  Fau- 
quier— for  he  avows  himself  a  convert,  in  some  measure,  in  respect  to  an  Executive 
Council — I  have  been  told,  that  the  Council  is  a  useless  body,  a  set  of  loiterers,  whose 
office  is  little  better  than  a  sinecure.  I  shall  not  reflect  on  the  motives  of  this  denun- 
ciation :  I  shall  only  say,  that  my  observation  and  experience  do  not  justify  the  truth 
of  it.  I  shall  not  affirm,  that  this  Council  has  always  been  filled  with  the  ablest  and 
most  experienced  men  in  the  State :  but  I  do  afiirm,  that  it  has  always  been  filled  by 
men  competent  to  their  duties;  and  that  those  duties  have  been,  in  the  main,  wisely 
and  prudently,  and  always  honestly,  discharged.  The  office  has  been  held  by  men^ 
two  of  whom  have  since  filled  the  office  of  President,  and  one  that  of  Chief  Justice 
of  the  United  States.  The  ablest  men  of  Virginia  have  been  in  the  Council :  and  I 
shall  take  occasion  to  say,  that  the  present  Lieutenant-Governor  (I  mean  the  gentle- 
man, v.^ho,  being  the  oldest  Councillor,  is  charged  with  the  duty  of  Lieutenant-Gov- 
ernor.) is,  in  point  of  capacity,  abundantly  fit  for  the  management  of  the  affairs  of 
this  State,  or  of  any  other  State  in  the  Union;  and,  in  point  of  firmness,  integrity 
and  virtue,  there  is  not  a  man  in  the  Commonwealth  that  would  be  disparaged  by  a 
comparison  with  him. 

Shall  we  abolish  this  institution,  and  substitute  another  in  its  stead,  on  mere  specu- 
lation, and  by  way  of  experiment.''  It  does  not  become  the  wisdom  of  the  gentleman 
from  Fauquier,  to  make  this  experiment  upon  us.  I  protest  against  any  experiments 
being  made  on  me  and  my  children.  I  regard  that  whole  system  of  political  experi- 
ments with  the  utmost  horror  and  alarm.  I  know  that  I  am  now  free ;  I  suffer  no 
oppression  :  I  ask  for  nothing  more.  No  man  has  a  right  to  expect  more  from  any 
Government,  than  to  be  left  to  carve  out  his  own  happiness,  as  best  he  can,  in  peace 
and  security. 

I  think  the  Executive  Council  may  be  re-modeled  to  advantage,  without  touching 
the  principle  of  the  institution.  Half  the  number  of  Councillors  may  be  dispensed 
with ;  the  principal  benefit  of  which  will  be,  that  the  Legislature  will  then  have  it  in 
its  power  to  double  the  salary  of  those  who  remain,  without  any  additional  expense, 
by  dividing  among  four  the  same  sum  that  is  now  paid  to  eight.  I  would  also  change 
the  method  of  removing  the  members  of  the  Council  from  office.  I  have  been  a 
member  of  the  Assembly  in  one  of  the  scratch  years  (as  they  are  called)  when,  without 
offence,  or  suspicion  of  offence,  two  members  of  the  Council  were  to  be  removed 
by  ballot :  and  never  have  I  experienced  more  pain,  than  1  suffered  in  witnessing,  and 
bearing  part,  in  the  scratch.  I  saw  men  of  honourable  feeling  and  of  high  worth, 
subjected  to  the  deepest  mortification.  I  wish  to  get  rid  of  that  painful  process.  In 
order  to  effect  this,  after  reducing  the  number  of  the  Council  to  four,  and  empowering 
them  to  appoint  one  of  their  own  number  to  act  as  President  of  the  body,  and  to  be 
charged  with  the  duty  of  Lieutenant-Governor,  I  would  have  each  Councillor  elected 
for  four  years,  and  provide  that  one  of  them  should  go  out  of  office  every  year.  I 
would  make  the  term  four  years,  on  the  supposition  that  that  of  the  Governor  is  to 
be  three  years.  But  if  the  Governor's  term  is  to  be  only  two  years,  then  I  would 
make  the  term  of  a  Councillor  three.  The  plan  is  simple,  and  will  be  readily  under- 
stood without  more  explanation. 

I  have  an  objection  to  the  details  of  the  plans,  both  of  the  gentleman  from  North- 
ampton, and  of  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier,  (Messrs.  Upshur  and  Scott.)  It  is  to 
the  number,  three.  The  Governor  is  not  to  be  one  of  the  Council,  but  is  to  have  three 
Councillors.  Suppose  one  of  these  should  die,  then,  if  another  should  be  sick,  the 
Governor  would  be  without  a  Council.  Would  this  be  a  rare  casualty  ?  Certainly 
not,  when  we  consider,  that  a  Councillor  may  often  be  taken  from  the  top  of  the  Al- 
leghany mountains  and  brought  to  Richmond — to  a  climate  very  different  from  that 
to  which  he  has  been  enured. 

I  prefer  a  Council  of  four  to  one  of  three  members — but  on  that  point,  I  shall  not 
be  pertinacious.  I  am  chiefly  anxious  that  the  Council.may  be  preserved,  with  the 
same  relation  to  the  Governor  which  it  bears  at  present.  And  I  trust  and  hope  and 
pray,  that  this  body  w^ill  not,  for  the  sake  of  change,  for  a  mere  chance  of  bettering 
our  condition,  give  up  an  institution,  which  has  been  found  to  answer  so  well  the 
good  purposes  for  which  it  was  founded. 

It  being  now  near  1  o'clock,  the  Committee  rose  on  Mr.  Fitzhugh's  motion,  and  the 
House  adjourned  to  give  place  to  the  sitting  of  the  House  of  Delegates. 

At  1  o'clock  the  Convention  again  convened,  and  immediately  went  into  Commit- 
tee of  the  Whole,  Mr.  Gordon  in  the  Chair. 

Mr.  Scott  then  rose  and  went  into  a  vindication  of  his  scheme  for  a  Council,  and  a 
reply  to  the  objections  which  had  been  urged  against  it  by  Messrs.  Upshur  and  Leigh. 

He  had  had  no  purpose  to  bring  on  such  a  discussion — and  the  state  of  his  health 
forbade  him  to  go  very  extensively  into  debate.    He  adverted  to  the  stage  of  tlie  debate 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONTENTION. 


595 


when  he  had  moved  his  amendment.  When  the  utmost  efforts  of  the  friends  of  the 
present  system,  having  failed,  it  seemed  that  there  must,  either  be  no  Council,  or 
one  wliicfi  the  Governor  might  consult  or  not.  as  he  pleased.  Their  arguments  had 
gone  far  to  convince  him.  that  there  ought  to  be  a  Council  of  some  kind,  and  he 
sketched  out  his  plan  as  a  middle  course.  As  it  seemed  agreed  on  all  hands  that 
there  must  be  a  Lieutenant-Governor,  he  thought  they  might  go  a  step  farther,  and 
add  two  other  persons  to  make  a  Council.  Instead  of  a  Lieutenant-Governor  co  no- 
mine.  he  wished  these  Councillors  to  choose  one  of  their  own  number,  who  should  be 
so  in  effect.  His  plan  differed  from  Mr.  L'pshur's  in  taking  away  from  the  Council 
the  veto  it  now  exercises.  He  was  in  favor  of  Driving  to  the  Governor  the  whole  be- 
nefit of  the  wisdom  and  advice  of  his  Council,  but  not  of  binding  him  to  be  governed 
by  their  will. 

Mr.  U.  he  said,  had  misconceived  him  in  supposing  that  the  Governor  was  not 
to  be  obliged  to  ask  the  advice  of  Council — he  was  in  all  cases  to  ask  for.  and  receive 
it.  But  the  gentleman  from  Northampton  had  asked,  why  pay  so  much  for  advice 
and  then  leave  the  Governor  at  liberty  to  reject  it.'  In  reply,  ]Mr.  Scott  asked,  if  this 
was  not  done  in  the  dailv  affairs  of  life .'  Did  not  men  pay  for  the  advice  of  a  phy- 
sician, but  were  they  obliged  to  take  it,  even  if  he  prescribed  a  dose  of  arsenic  t  Was 
advice  worth  nothing,  unles-s  a  man  was  imperatively  bound  to  pursue  it?  Would 
gentlemen  tell  a  Commander  in  Chief  that  he  must  never  summon  a  Council  of  W^ar, 
unless  he  meant  to  submit  to  the  opinions  of  his  officers. 

He  expressed  the  pain  it  gave  him  to  differ  fi-ora  his  worthy  friend  from  Chester- 
field. But  he  had  come  to  this  Convention,  impressed  with  the  belief  that  the  Coun- 
cil was  not  only  useless,  but  positively  injurious  ;  and  such  was  the  opinion  of  a  large 
portion  of  the  citizens  of  the  Commonwealth.  The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  had 
not  seen  the  operation  of  the  Council :  he  had  only  been  pained  by  witnessing  the 
process  of  the  ''scratch:"  but  ]Mr.  S.  said  that  his  people  considered  that  a  mere 
scratch,  indeed,  in  comparison  to  the  evils  which  had  grown  out  of  this  part  of  the 
Government.  He  was  about,  however,  to  prefer  no  bill  of  indictment;  he  had  prac- 
tised at  home  for  many  years  in  the  character  of  public  prosecutor,  and  he  well  knew 
how  hard  it  was  often,  to  convert,  even  in  the  plainest  cases,  and  vrith  process  in  his 
liands  to  compel  the  attendance  of  witnesses;  he  should  not  think  of  exercising  his 
function  in  this  Committee,  when  the  Governor  and  Council  were  to  be  the  prisoners 
at  the  bar,  and  the  judges  before  whom  he  was  to  plead  were  already  invincibly  pre- 
possessed in  favor  of  the  parties  accused.  But  he  might  appeal  to  many  members  of 
the  House  who  were  acquainted  with  the  inability  of  tliis  part  of  the  State  machinery, 
and  how  badly  it  had  worked  in  many  cases.  It  was  natural  that  a  gentleman  who 
had  entered  with  all  his  constitutional  ardour  into  the  defence  of  tlie  existing  Govern- 
ment in  all  its  departments,  in  all  its  forms,  and  all  its  past  and  present  officers,  to  be 
very  sensitive  when  the  minuest  feature  of  either  was  assailed :  not  an  excressence 
could  be  lopped  off  but  all  his  fears  were  excited  at  once.  He  (Mr.  S.)  would  change, 
but  only  to  improve,  and  he  thought  tliis  Department  of  the  Government  did  require 
the  pruning,  though  not  the  amputating  loiife. 

After  noticing  the  irrelevancy  of  much  that  ]Mr.  L.  had  said  to  the  question  before 
the  Committee — the  gentleman  had  asked  whether  they  would  have  the  Governor 
without  advice  .'  and  if  not.  whether  he  was  to  look  to  his  private  friends  or  official  in- 
feriors and  dependants,  or  to  a  public  and  responsible  body  t  He  answered,  to  a  body 
public  and  responsible;  and  such  an  one  he  had  provided.  He  v.'ould  have  tlie  Go- 
vernor look  neither  to  those  on  whom  he  was  dependant,  nor  on  those  who  were  de- 
pendant upon  him  :  but  to  a  Council  obliged  to  advise  him,  and  responsible  for  their 
advice.  The  recording  of  the  acts  of  the  Governor,  and  the  publicity  of  all  his  trans- 
actions, so  pithily  adverted  to  by  the  gentleman  from  Cliarlotte  pir.  Randolph.) 
whom  he  was  sorry  not  to  see  in  his  place,  and  who  had  reminded  the  Committee 
that  publicity  was  the  safe-guard  of  virtue,  were  all  secured  by  the  plan  now  propo- 
sed. It  had  the  excellfuce  of  perpetuity  too,  which  had  been  so  well  insisted  upon 
by  the  gentleman  from  Amelia  and  his  friend  from  Chesterfield.  They  had  been  told 
by  the  present  incumbent  of  the  Governor's  Chair,  that  the  Executive  of  Virginia  was 
the  most  responsible  Executive  in  the  world  :  be  it  so:  all  that  responsibility  was  pre- 
served unimpaired  by  his  amendment.  All  the  valuable  characteristics  of  the  present 
system  were  retained,  untouched.  But  he  was  told  that  such  a  Council  as  was  pro- 
posed was  an  anomaly ;  but  he  thought  that  remark  applied  rather  to  a  Council  like 
the  present;  where  the  advisers  were  made  paramount  to  the  party  advised.  He  was 
asked  if  he  would  put  all  the  power  in  the  Governor  J  He  answered  yes  :  but  now  it 
was  all  in  the  Council.  And  the  question  was,  whether  it  was  better  to  put  the  power, 
with  a  check  (thougii  not  a  control)  over  it,  in  the  Governor,  or,  to  place  it,  without 
any  check  at  all.  in  the  Council .'  It  had  been  said  with  great  truth  that  the  Governor 
could  now  shelter  himself  from  respon:>ibilitv  behind  his  Council.  lie  had  power,  it 
was  true  in  himself  to  stand  still;  but  if  he  took  one  step,  he  must  be  shielded  by  the 
advice  of  his  Council. 


696 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  S.  said,  his  plan  appeared  to  him  to  strike  the  golden  mean,  between  a  Go- 
vernor without  any  Council,  and  a  Governor  with  a  Council  who  ruled  over  him. 
At  present,  he  may  submit  measure  after  measure,  but  till  he  varies  his  proposition  so 
as  exactly  to  hit  the  views  of  his  Councillors,  the  wheels  of  Government  must  stand 
still.  He  said,  he  had  heard  this  complained  of  by  those  who  had  filled  the  office  of 
Governor,  and  he  had  learned  from  the  gentleman  from  Orange,  (Mr.  Madison.)  that 
one  Governor  of  Virginia  had  felt  the  check  so  severely,  as  to  have  remarked  that 
"  according  to  the  theory  of  the  Constitution,  Virginia  had  one  Governor,  and  eight 
Councillors;  but  practically  and  in  reality,  she  had  eio-/t^  Governors,  and  one  Coun- 
cillor." The  Governor  of  Virginia  now  stood,  he  had  often  thought,  much  in  the 
condition  of  a  very  worthy  and  renowned  Governor  of  whom  he  had  read ;  he  meant 
Governor  Sancho — who  had  at  his  table,  one  Dr.  Pedro  Positive,  native  of  the  town 
of  Snatchaway,  who,  as  soon  as  the  Governor  had  fixed  his  eyes  upon  a  favorite  dish, 
would  touch  it  with  his  wand  and  cry,  "  no,  not  that,"  till  this  worthy  Governor  had 
been  like  to  lose  his  dinner  entirely,  because  no  dish  of  which  he  attempted  to  eat, 
happened  to  please  the  Doctor.  The  Governor  proposes  one  plan;  the  Council  dis- 
approves; he  offers  another  and  another  and  another;  and  while  they  are  disapprov- 
ing, the  wheels  of  State  stand  still. 

The  question  being  taken  on  Mr.  Scott's  amendment,  it  was  rejected. — Ayes  44, 
Noes  48. 

(Messrs.  Madison  and  Marshall  in  the  affirmative.) 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  now  moved  as  an  amendment,  "  that  the  Executive  Council  ought 
to  be  abolished." 

The  question  being  taken,  it  was  carried. — Ayes  50. 

So  the  Committee  have  voted  to  abolish  the  Council  of  State. 

The  Committee  then  proceeded  to  consider  the  sixth  and  seventh  resolutions  of  the 
Executive  Committee,  which  read  as  follows: 

"  Resoleed,  That  the  commissioned  officers  of  militia  companies  be  nominated  to  the 
Executive  by  a  majority  of  their  respective  companies. 

"  Resolved,  That  the  field  officers  of  regiments,  be  nominated  to  the  Executive  by 
a  majority  of  the  commissioned  officers  of  their  respective  companies." 

Mr.  Trezvant  said,  that  as  both  these  resolutions  had  been  adopted  on  his  motion, 
he  would  take  the  liberty  of  proposing  an  amendment  whicli  he  thought  better  calcula- 
ted to  attain  the  object  he  had  in  view.    He  presented  it  in  the  words  following: 

"  Resolved,  That  the  mode  of  appointing  militia  officers  ought  to  be  provided  for  by 
law :  Provided,  nevertheless.  That  no  officer  below  the  grade  of  a  Brigadier  General 
should  be  appointed  by  the  General  Assembly." 

Mr.  T.  accompanied  the  amendment  by  a  few  remarks  in  explanation,  going  to 
shew  that  some  change  in  the  present  mode  of  appointment  was  desirable,  but  that 
if  the  experiment  he  proposed  should  on  trial  be  found  to  produce  worse  results  than 
the  present  system,  the  step  could  be  retraced. 

Mr.  Macrae  moved  the  following  amendment  to  that  of  Mr.  Trezvant : 
Resolved,  That  the  general  officers  of  the  militia  shall  be  appointed  by  tlie  Execu» 
live,  by  and  with  the  advice  and  consent  of  the  Senate,  upon  the  nominations  of  the 
field-officers  of  the  militia  in  such  districts,  and  in  such  manner  as  shall  be  prescribed 
by  law. 

"  Resolved,  That  all  other  officers  of  the  militia  shall  be  appointed  in  such  manner 
as  shall  be  prescribed  by  law." 

Mr.  Macrae  expressed  his  concurrence  with  the  views  of  the  gentleman  from 
Southampton,  in  respect  to  the  inferior  officers.  He  thought  the  present  mode  of  ap- 
pointment, judging  by  its  results,  as  bad  as  any  that  could  be  devised  ;  and,  therefore, 
he  was  willing  to  make  the  experiment  of  elective  nominations;  but,  as  experience, 
the  only  test  of  human  institutions,  might  demonstrate  the  latter  to  be  even  v/orse 
than  the  former,  he  was  disposed  to  subject  the  whole  matter  to  Legislative  control 
and  discretion.  The  military  elections  in  Pennsylvania,  had  resulted  in  one  instance, 
in  the  choice  of  a  Colonel  Pluck— whilst  here,  perhaps,  it  might  be  retorted,  our 
County  Court  recommendations  had  given  us  many  a  Colonel  J\'o-Pluck,  or  without 
•pluck,  as  the  experience  of  the  late  war  had  unhappily  manifested.  The  Constitution 
of  New  York,  provides  for  the  election  of  the  inferior  officers  of  the  militia ;  but,  dis- 
trusting this  mode  of  appointment,  it  authorises  the  Legislature  to  substitute  any 
other  in  its  discretion.  So  that,  upon  the  whole,  it  seemed  to  be  most  expedient  to 
abohsh  the  present  Constitutional  restriction,  as  to  the  mode  of  appointment;  and  to 
leave  it  to  the  Legislature,  to  provide  such  as  circumstances  shall  recommend  to  its 
adoption. 

As  to  the  general  officers,  he  adverted  to  the  high  importance  of  selecting  men  of 
the  best  military  qualifications;  and  he  declared,  that  he  considered  the  election  by 
the  General  Assembly,  as  not  adapted  to  that  end,  and  as  resulting  in  practice,  in 
many  exceptionable  appointments.  He  claimed  to  be  a  reformer,  but  he  was  no  theo- 
rist ;  he  should  go  for  the  principles  that  would  work  well";  he  would  deduce  them 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


597 


from  facts,  supplied  by  history  and  experience ;  and  he  would  apply  them  with  a 
view  to  practical  results.  He  asked,  if  it  was  not  the  tendency  and  effect  of  the  pre- 
sent system,  to  choose  politicians  rather  than  soldiers;  to  prefer  civic  merit  to  military 
endowments ;  and  to  make  it  tiie  most  essential  qualification,  to  attain  the  station  of  a 
Virginia  general,  that  he  should  be  a  member  of  the  Legislature  ?  It  must  be  so  from 
the  nature  of  things,  and  the  ordinary  workings  of  hunmn  nature  :  the  electors  have  no 
opportunity  of  making  a  fair  comparison  of  the  pretensions  of  the  rival  candidates ; 
and  they,  therefore,  readily  yield  to  tlie  influence  of  the  csjjrit  dir  corps,  or  of  personal 
friendship  or  esieem,  contracted  during  tiieir  association  in  public  duty.  The  Legis- 
lature had  proved  itself  to  be  wholly  incompetent  to  the  due  exercise  of  this  elective 
function,  by  the  appointment  of  popular  men,  who,  however  amiable  and  respectable, 
were  not  recommended  by  either  military  service  or  military  talent  3  of  men,  who  not 
only  had 

Never  set  a  squadron  in  the  field, 
Nor  the  division  of  a  battle  knew, 
More  than  a  spinster," — 

But  were  incapable  of  drilling  a  sergeant's  squad ;  and,  perhaps,  had  never  even  held 
a  commission.  In  these  remarks,  he  disclaimed  any  particular  allusion.  He  spoke 
Tjnly  of  the  general  tendency  of  the  system;  and  he  doubted  not,  that  there  had  been 
many  honorable  exceptions. 

But  he  utterly  disapproved  of  the  principle  of  rewarding  military  service  by  civil 
office ;  and  he  thought  the  converse  equally  true,  and  that  civil  service  ought  not  to 
be  rewarded  by  military  office.  He  thought  that  military  men  were  the  best  judges 
of  military  merit,  and  that  the  best  depository  of  the  power  of  nominating  our  com- 
manders, would  be  the  field-officers  of  regiments,  who,  however  deficient  many  of 
them  must  be  from  the  want  of  experience,  will  always  embody  the  mass  of  the  mili- 
tary talent  and  spirit  of  the  State.  The  nominating  power  ought  to  be  lodged  in 
the  hands  of  those  having  the  best  capacity  and  opportunity  to  judge  of  the  qualifica- 
tions of  those  recommended  to  office ;  and  he  asked  whether  this  function  could  be 
properly  performed  by  the  members  of  the  General  Assembly  who  are  civilians,  and 
not  soldiers,  and  who  have  no  means  of  comparing  the  pretensions  of  the  officers 
from  whom  in  general  the  selection  ought  to  be  made,  or  other  candidates  presented 
for  their  choice.-'  Emulation  was  the  soul  of  a  soldier;  and  the  hope  of  promotion, 
the  great  incentive  to  military  energy;  and  these  he  believed  would  be  much  more 
strongly  excited  among  our  officers,  when  they  knew  that  their  advancement  de- 
pended upon  the  estimates  formed  of  each  other  from  personal  observation,  or  certain 
information,  and  not  upon  holding  a  place  in  the  Legislature.  He  proposed  to  give 
the  Governor  and  Senate,  a  negative  upon  the  nominations,  with  a  view  to  the  cor- 
rection, of  those  instances  of  erroneous  judgment,  or  personal  injustice,  which  would 
•occur  sometimes,  wherever  the  power  of  selection  might  be  lodged.  He  had  made 
the  Senate  participate  in  the  exercise  of  that  negative  at  the  instance  of  others  :  he 
was  content  to  confide  it  to  the  Executive  alone  ;  and  he  hoped  that  those  who  ob- 
jected to  his  plan,  merely  by  reason  of  the  action  of  the  Senate,  would  move  to  strike 
out  that  feature  of  it.  His  plan  was  recommended,  too,  by  its  consonance  with  those 
great  and  pervading  principles  of  our  Constitution,  \vhich  had  operated  so  happily  for 
more  than  half  a  century  ;  namely,  the  division  of  patronage  and  local  nomination  for 
office,  wherever  those  nominations  could  be  best  exercised  upon  local  knowledge. 
These  principles  were  as  a?pplicable  to  the  Legislative,  as  to  the  Executive  Depart- 
ment of  the  Government.  The  corrupting  influence  of  the  patronage  of  the  Execu- 
tive of  the  United  States  over  the  Legislative  Department,  had  been  the  subject  of  loud 
complaint  and  open  denunciation  from  high  authority  ;  and  it  had  been  proposed  to 
remedy  the  evil,  by  making  members  of  Congress  ineligible  during  the  term  for 
which  they  shall  be  elected  to  any  office  in  the  gift  of  the  President.  It  has  been 
thought  that  the  same  sort  of  influence  might  exist  where  the  persons  exercising  the 
patronage  might  bestow  it  upon  themselves  ;  and,  therefore,  the  Constitutions  of  some 
of  the  States  provide  that  members  of  the  Legislature  shall,  during  the  period  for 
which  they  shall  have  been  elected,  be  ineligible  to  any  office,  the  appointment  to 
"which  is  confided  to  the  Legislature.  He  was  not  prepared  to  go  this  length :  but  he 
doubted  whether  the  disqualification  did  not  in  effect,  rather  enlarge  than  limit  the 
•field  of  choice  ;  and  whether  the  considerations  wliich  had  recommended  it  to  the  adop- 
tion of  other  States,  might  not  recommend  it  to  ours.  Experience,  he  said,  was  his 
guide  in  all  political  reforms ;  and  he  referred  to  the  examples  of  other  States,  where 
the  plan  of  elective  nominations  of  the  military  had  prevailed.  He  referred  particu- 
larly to  the  militia  of  Tennessee,  who  elected  their  own  officers  :those  gallant  militia, 
who,  in  so  many  hard-fought  battles,  had  acquired  immortal  fame  for  themselves,  and 
shed  imperishable  renown  upon  our  arms;  who,  with  their  compatriots,  in  an  hour  of 
gloom  and  despondency,  had,  on  the  plains  of  New  Orleans,  terminated  the  late  war 
in  a  blaze  of  glory  which  illuminated  our  political  horizon,  and  made  every  American 
citizen  proud  of  his  country  :  those  militia  who  were  led  by  their  own  chosen  com- 
manders— a  Coffee,  a  Carroll,  and  a  Jackson  ! 


598 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr>  Trezvant,  after  stating  the  difference  between  Mr.  Macrae's  scheme  and  his 
own,  expressed  his  preference  that  the  appointment  of  the  higher,  as  well  as  the  in- 
ferior ofhcerSj  should  remain  witli  the  Legislature.  It  was  true  that  that  body  could 
not  have  a  personal  knowledge  of  all  the  candidates  3  but  no  more  could  the  Gover- 
nor and  Senate. 

Mr.  Macrae  here  explained :  His  scheme  did  not  leave  either  to  their  personal 
knowledge  of  the  candidates,  but  provided  for  recommendations  from  the  commis- 
sioned officerj. 

Mr.  Trezvant  replied :  If  so,  he  saw  no  reason  why  the  choice  should  be  confined 
to  one  House  only :  why  not  give  it  to  both  branches  of  the  Legislature  ?  There 
would  be,  he  thought,  a  greater  prospect  of  a  good  selection. 

Mr.  Macrae  suggested,  that  according  to  Mr.  Trezvant's  scheme,  the  Adjutant 
General  would  not  be  chosen  by  the  General  Assembly.  The  nominating  body  was 
the  best  qualified  to  judge,  and  there  should  be  a  negative  in  some  superior  body. 
He  was  for  putting  that  veto  in  the  Governor  and  one  branch  of  the  Legislature ;  he 
had  precedent  for  this  in  the  Government  of  the  United  States.  He  thought  it  better 
to  leave  it  with  the  advisory,  and  more  permanent  body  than  in  the  popular  branch. 
But  some  might  desire  that  this  veto  should  remain  in  the  Governor  alone  :  on  this 
point  he  should  not  be  very  strenuous,  and  an  amendment  to  that  effect  could  be 
made. 

Mr.  Trezvant  replied,  that  the  case  of  the  Adjutant  General  could  readily  be  pro- 
vided for,  by  striking  out  "  Brigadier,"  and  inserting  "  Adjutant." 

As  to  the  recommendation  of  the  regimental  officers,  this  would  be  more  of  a  per- 
sonal than  of  a  military  kind  ;  for  they  were  not  known  to  each  other  in  their  mili- 
tary character ;  they  were  seldom,  in  time  of  peace,  brought  together  to  manoeuvre 
in  the  same  field,  and  hence  had  no  opportunity  of  judging  of  each  other's  skill  and 
fitness.  If  the  recommendation  were  left  to  the  officers  of  regiments,  they  would  re- 
gularly, certainly  and  invariably  nominate  the  oldest  officer,  according  to  date  of  com- 
mission, and  then  matters  would  be  even  worse  than  at  present. 

Mr.  Morgan  said,  he  had  intended  to  have  amended  the  sixth  resolution:  as  it  now 
stood,  the  Legislature  were  to  appoint  all  the  officers  above  a  Colonel  or  commandant 
of  a  regiment.  Before  the  revolutionary  war,  there  were  no  Brigadier  Generals,  and 
only  county  lieutenants.  The  election  of  Brigadier  Generals  and  Major  Generals 
was  a  measure  adopted  during  the  revolution.  Although  there  might  be  occasionally 
some  hard  cases,  the  present  plan  had  operated  well.  None  of  the  States,  he  trusted, 
had  enjoyed  a  liigher  military  fame.  The  amendment  he  wished,  was  to  insert  after 
the  word  companies"  in  the  sixth  resolution,  the  words  battalions  and  regiments." 
Let  the  officers  nominate,  and  nomination  would  be  nearly  the  same  thing  as  appoint- 
ment. The  oldest  officers  would  invariably  be  nominated  :  because  each  man  respects 
the  age  of  his  own  commission.  If  both  the  amendment  and  the  amendments  to  the 
amendment,  should  be  rejected,  and  the  alteration  be  made  which  he  had  suggested, 
he  was  persuaded  the  system  would  be  found  to  work  well :  it  had  thus  far. 

Mr.  Tazewell  wished  to  know  of  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier,  (Mr.  Macrae.)  how 
he  proposed  to  collect  the  sense  of  the  nominating  body.?  The  State,  at  present,  con- 
tained, he  believed,  four  division  districts;  each  containing  a  Major  General  and 
field  officers  of  division.  They  must  amount  to  some  hundreds  in  all.  They  could 
not  be  collected  into  one  spot  without  great  inconvenience  and  expense,  and  without 
so  collecting  them,  how  was  the  will  of  the  majority  to  be  ascertained. 

Mr.  Macrae  replied,  that  if  this  was  the  only  objection  to  his  plan,  he  anticipated 
its  entire  success.  His  great  object  was  to  have  a  military  body  for  the  nominating 
power  :  the  details  of  his  plan  were  to  be  left  to  the  Legislature  :  as  to  brigades,  there 
could  be  no  great  difficulty.  The  officers  of  one  brigade  inight  be  brought  together, 
without  travelling  more  than  thirty,  or  at  most,  more  than  fifty  miles  in  the  Eastern 
part  of  the  State,  and  not  exceeding  seventy  in  the  Western.  The  sense  of  the  offi- 
cers might  be  collected  in  their  own  counties.  There  would  be,  to  be  sure,  more 
difficulty  as  to  divisions;  but  it  was  not  insurmountable,  and  the  principle  was  very 
important.  As  to  the  objection  that  the  officers  of  the  same  division  were  not  ac- 
quainted with  each  other's  military  capacity,  surely  the  difficulty  v^^as  greater  if  ex- 
tended, as  now,  to  the  whole  State. 

Mr.  Johnson,  without  pretending  to  be  well  versed  in  military  matters,  suggested 
his  objection  to  the  plan  of  having  officers  nominated  by  tliose  whom  they  were  to 
command.  He  thought  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier,  had  not  removed  the  objection 
of  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk.  And  though  the  details  were  to  be  left  to  the  Legis- 
lature, yet  if  they  presented  impossibilities,  they  formed  a  valid  objection  against  the 
plan.  Suppose  four  divisions  were  to  be  put  together,  (for  this  was  a  matter  for  Con- 
gress to  controul,)  how  could  the  sense  of  the  officers  be  collected  ?  The  rule  o^  se- 
niority, too,  would  always  be  resorted  to.  Every  military  man  adhered  with  invin- 
cible pertinacity  to  the  principle  of  seniority.  All  were  alike  interested  in  maintain- 
ing it. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


599 


How  the  gentleman's  plan  might  answer  in  the  regular  army,  he  could  not  say : 
but,  he  put  it  to  the  gentleman's  good  sense  to  say.  how  it  could  work  among  militia, 
where  there  was  no  railitar}^  school  and  no  opportunity  for  practice  r  The  principle  of 
seniority  mig-ht  soon  raise  a  sergeant  to  the  command  of  a  regiment — and  the  com- 
mandant of  a  company  to  the  rank  of  a  General.  He  was  opposed  to  tlie  principle, 
nor  could  he  think  it  wise  to  set  the  ofncers  by  the  ears  in  the  selection  and  nomina- 
tion for  filling  vacancies,  nor  to  set  soldiers  in  the  line  to  elect  their  own  officers — 
they  would  always  nominate  the  most  lenient.  He  would  never  consent  to  set  offi- 
cers canvassing  with  their  men  for  all  tlie  offices  in  the  army.  These  might  be  the 
sucfcrestions  of  ig-norance.  for  he  professed  little  knowledge  of  tlie  subject )  but  they 
struck  him  as  olTvious  common-sense  objections  to  the  plan  proposed. 

Mr.  Brodnax  g-ave  notice,  that  if  the  present  amendments  should  be  rejected,  he 
should  move  thai  all  appointments,  be  in  future  made  by  law.  He  did  not  intend  to 
enter  on  the  discussion.  It  was  very  possible  there  might  have  been  some  abuses, 
but  he  believed  that  all  militia  Generals  were  not  members  of  the  Legislature.  He 
advocated  the  reference  to  future  legislation  of  the  mode  of  appointing  all  officers,  if 
scay part  of  the  subject  was  committed  to  them;  that  in  the  event  of  failure  in  any 
experiment,  the  old  mode  might  be  recurred  to:  for  which  he  expressed  a  preference 
to  that  of  elections  by  the  military  themselves.  He  was  opposed  like  the  gentleman 
from  Auffusta,  to  the  idea  of  soldiers  selecting  their  own  officers — the  effect  would 
be,  that  instead  of  training  their  men,  the  officers  would  be  treating  them  to  whiskey 
and  electioneering.  They  would  meet,  not  to  improve  themselves  in  military  exer- 
cises, but  to  eat  "barbecues  and  to  drink  whiskey  :  and  he  who  could  make  the  pret- 
tiest speeches,  would  stand  the  best  chance  to  be  elected. 

In  the  case  of  companies,  the  County  Courts  recommend  according  to  the  nomina- 
tion of  the  company :  in  that  case,  it  was  well  known  that  military  merit  v.-as  the 
verj"  last  thing  that  was  thought  of.  The  question  was  about  Adams  men  and  Jack- 
son men.  And  above  all,  whether  the  man  had  a  hberal  heart  and  a  full  purse,  to 
buy  more  whiskey.  But  tiie  whole  scheme  was  idle.  jN'o  man,  he  presumed,  but  a 
mere  theorist,  could  ever  expect  an  efficient  militia  system,  in  the  piping  times  of 
peace.  The  best  place  for  the  display  of  such  a  system  was  on  paper.  As  to  the  ap- 
pointment of  the  officers  by  the  Governor,  with  the  advice  of  the  Senate,  the  objec- 
tions to  it  were  insurmountable.  He  illustrated  the  effects  of  such  a  plan,  by  refer- 
ring to  the  Government  of  Great  Britain,  where,  though  the  King  nominally  made 
all  the  appointments,  the  ministry  controlled  them,  and  they  were  the  subject  of  bar- 
gain and  sale.  He  suggested  difficulties  as  to  the  nomination  by  officers  of  very  un- 
equal grades.  Were  alfto  have  equal  votes  ?  and  if  all  these  details  could  be  arrayed, 
the  effect  would  be  endless  heart-burnings.  The  influence  of  resentment  and  jealousy 
would  be  felt  and  unconsciously  acted  upon. 

Mr.  Powell  was  in  favour  of  Mr.  Macrae's  proposition,  so  far  as  the  appointm.ent 
by  the  Governor  was  concerned ;  but  he  vras  for  excluding  the  Senate  from  any  par- 
ticipation. 

Mr.  Trezvant  replied  to  !Mr.  Brodnax.  If  his  plan  were  to  carry,  the  time  of  the 
Assembly  would  be  wasted  in  the  apppointment  of  regimental  officers — Colonels, 
Majors  and  Captains.  To  this  he  should  be  wholly  opposed.  He  was  opposed  to  an 
unrestricted  submission  of  the  mode  of  appointment  to  the  Legislature,  of  officers  of 
all  grades,  for  fear  they  might  themselves  undertake  the  appointment  of  inferior  offi- 
cers. 

INIr.  Macrae  and  ^Ir.  Brodnax  made  a  few  remarks  in  reply,  vrhen  the  question  was 
taken  on  Mr.  Macrae's  amendment,  and  negatived  :  Ayes  40.  !Xoes  49. 
(Mr.  Madison  and  Z\Ir.  3Iarshall  in  the  negative.) 

Mr.  Macrae  then  offered  it  in  a  modified  shape,  omitting  the  advice  and  consent  of 
the  Senate  ;  but  it  was  not  more  successful  than  before. 

He  modified  it  once  more,  so  as  to  have  the  higher  officers  appointed  by  the  Execu- 
tive, by  and  with  the  consent  of  the  Senate,  and  the  rest  by  the  Assembly. 

But  this  was  also  negatived. 

The  question  being  then  put  on  ^Ir.  Trezvant's  motion  to  strike  out  and  insert, 

rvlr.  Summers  called  for  a  division  of  the  question  :  it  was  divided  accordingly  ;  and 
being  first  on  striking  out, 

Mr.  Mercer,  in  illustration  of  the  effect  of  allowing  officers  to  be  elected  bv  their 
inferiors,  quoted  the  instance  of  a  Pennsylvania  regiment  on  the  frontier  during  an 
interesting  and  critical  period  of  the  last  war,  whose  soldiers  beinrr  tried  by  their  of- 
ficers for  dcserLlon.  v:ere  fined  ticelve  and  a  half  ccfits  a  piece.  If  onentlemen  were  for 
giving  to  the  nrihtia  of  the  State  such  an  organization  as  would  render  it  most  effi- 
cient in  war,  there  ought  to  be  no  officers  at  all  appointed  above  the  rank  of  Colonel. 
But  this  was  not  in  the  power  of  the  Convention  :  it  belonofed  to  the  General  Gov- 
ernment.   He  should  vote  for  the  strikinar  out. 

The  question  was  then  put  on  striking  out  the  sixth  and  seventh  resolutions  of  the 
Executive  Committee  and  carried,  without  a  count.  And  the  question  recurring  on 
inserting  Mr.  Trezvant's  amendment  in  lieu  of  them, 


coo 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  Doddridge  said,  that  with  a  view  to  test  the  sense  of  the  Committee,  he  should 
move  that  it  now  rise  :  he  was  not  prepared  to  vote  on  this  proposition,  or  any  other 
connected  willi  the  Legislature,  until  it  was  first  settled  how  the  Legislature  was  to 
be  constituted.  He  felt  this  difficulty  touch  him  at  every  step,  and  in  the  hope  that 
the  Coimnittee  would  to-morrow  take  up  the  question  of  the  basis  of  Representation,, 
he  moved  that  the  Committee  do  now  rise. 

The  motion  was  negatived — Ayes  36. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  if  the  proposition  of  Mr.  Trezvant  should  be  inserted,  the  inevi- 
table result  would  be,  that  all  militia  officers  would  in  fact  be  elected  by  the  people. 

The  question  being  then  put  on  inserting  the  proposition  of  Mr.  Trezvant,  it  was 
carried — Ayes  45,  Noes  4J . 

(Mr.  Marshall,  aye  :  Mr.  Madison,  no.) 

So  the  Committee  inserted  in  lieu  of  the  sixth  and  seventh  resolutions  of  the  Ex- 
ecutive Committee,  the  following: 

"  Resolved,  That  the  mode  of  appointing  militia  officers  ought  to  be  provided  for  by 
law :  Provided,  nevertheless,  That  no  officer  below  the  grade  of  a  Brigadier  General 
should  be  appointed  by  the  General  Assembly." 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Powell,  the  Committee  then  rose. 

And  the  House  adjourned  to  meet  in  the  Capitol  to-morrow  at  11  o'clock. 


THURSDAY,  December  10,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr, 
Croes  of  the  Episcopal  Church. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Summers,  the  report  of  the  Committee  charged  with  procuring 
a  suitable  house  for  the  sittings  of  the  Convention  was  taken  up ;  and  after  a  conver- 
sation, in  which  Messrs.  Summers,  Powell  and  Clay  tor  took  part,  Mr.  Campbell  of 
Brooke  was  added  to  the  Committee,  and  they  were  directed  to  prepare  accommoda- 
tions for  the  Convention  in  the  first  Baptist  Church ;  and  it  was  resolved  that  when 
the  Convention  adjourned,  it  would  adjourn  to  meet  in  that  place  at  11  o'clock. 

The  Convention  then  went  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  Gordon  in  the  Chair, 
and  resumed  the  consideration  of  the  report  of  the  Judicial  Committee. 

And  the  second  resolution  of  that  report  having  been  read  as  follows  : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  present  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals,  Judges  of  the  Gene- 
ral Court,  and  Chancellors  remain  in  office  until  the  expiration  of  the  first  session  of 
the  Legislature  held  under  the  new  Constitution,  and  no  longer.  But  the  Legisla- 
ture may  cause  to  be  paid  to  such  of  them  as  shall  not  be  re-appointed,  such  sura  as, 
from  their  age,  infirmities,  and  past  services,  shall  be  deemed  reasonable." 

Mr.  Henderson  moved  to  strike  out  this  resolution.  It  was  incompatible  with  the 
doctrine  laid  down  in  the  seventh  and  eighth  resolutions  of  the  same  Committee:  the 
first  of  which  provided  for  Judges  being  impeached  and  removed  upon  conviction,  and 
the  last  required  a  vote  of  two-thirds  of  both  Houses  of  the  Legislature  to  exclude 
them  from  office.  These  two  provisions  covered  the  whole  ground;  and  why  should 
such  a  measure  as  this  be  thought  of?  It  was  at  least  wholly  useless;  and  if  so,  why 
should  it  be  done.''  It  was  unfeeling  and  unadvised.  He  trusted  the  House  would 
strike  it  out.  He  was  aware  that  discontent  existed  in  relation  to  some  of  the  Judges, 
and  he  had  himself  participated  in  it  to  a  considerable  extent :  but  he  trusted  that  our 
Judges  would  be  put  on  the  same  footing  with  other  officers  :  not  a  justice  of  the  peace, 
not  a  constable,  could  have  a  hair  of  his  head  touched  without  crime  being  proved 
against  him :  but  here,  at  one  sweep,  all  the  Judges  and  the  Chancellors  were  to  lose 
their  offices,  and  that  without  any  fault  being  proved  or  even  pretended  against  them. 
He  trusted,  if  the  Judges  had  done  no  wrong,  and  v/ere  capable  of  discharging  their 
duties,  that  they  would  be  left  where  every  other  officer  under  the  Government  was 
left. 

Mr.  Morgan  having  ascertained  from  the  Chair  that  such  a  motion  would  be  in  order, 
moved  to  amend  the  resolution,  by  striking  from  it  these  words:  "  But  the  Legisla- 
ture may  cause  to  be  paid  to  such  of  them  as  shall  not  be  re-appointed,  such  sum  as, 
from  their  age,  infirmities,  and  past  services,  shall  be  deemed  reasonable."  The  clause 
was  unnecessary — as  the  Legislature  would  have  this  power  without  it.  The  Con- 
vention would  not  assume  that  the  Judges  are  old  and  infirm,  or  to  presume  that,  of 
course,  they  would  not  be  re-appointed.  As  to  removing  all  the  Judges  from  office, 
they  might  as  well  remove  all  members  of  Assembly,  and  all  Executive  officers  under 
the  Government :  they  have  power  to  re-organize  the  whole  system.  He  was  in  fa- 
vour of  retaining  the  first  clause. 

Mr.  Morgan  consented,  for  the  present,  to  withdraw  his  motion,  at  the  request  of 
Mr.  Scott,  who  moved  to  amend  the  last  clause,  by  striking  out  the  word  may," 
and  inserting  the  word  "  shall,"  so  as  to  make  it  imperative  on  the  Legislature  to  pay 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


601 


a  reasonable  sum  to  such  of  tliem  as  were  not  re-appointed,  and  wliose  age  and  infir- 
mities might  require  it. 

Mr.  Scott  saidj  he  wa.s  the  mover  of  the  resolution  in  the  Judiciar\'  Committee,  but 
not  in  the  shape  which  it  now  wears.  He  had  thought,  and  did  still  think,  that  great 
inconvenience  attended  the  system  now  in  operation  :  and  he  was  not  singular  in  that 
opinion.  He  wished  to  put  it  in  the  power  of  the  Leo;islature  to  remedy  all  the  evils  that 
grew  out  of  it.  While  he  thought  that  the  Judges  might  be  removed  from  office  as 
the  resolution  proposed,  he  also  thought  it  fair  that  they  should  receive  some  com- 
pensation. He  considered  Judges  as  standing  in  a  very  diiierent  relation  to  the  peo- 
ple, from  all  other  public  servants ;  their  offices  had  been  accepted  under  a  contract 
that  they  should  retain  them  during  good  behaviour  :  and  though  they  v\'ere  aj^pointed 
under  the  existing  Constitution,  and  when  it  was  abolished  their  office  ceased  with  it, 
yet  they  had  had  no  such  evil  in  view  when  they  accepted  tlieir  appointments  :  and 
tliough  the  people  had,  in  strictness,  a  legal  right  to  remove  them,  yet  moral  justice 
required  that  this  should  not  be  done  without  some  compensation  being  made  to  them. 
Unless  the  amendment  should  be  adopted,  he  should  vote  against  the  resolution. 

The  question  being  taken,  the  amendment  was  rejected. 

(Mr.  Madison  and  Mr.  2>Iarshall  voting  in  its  favour.) 

Mr.  Morgan  now  renewed  his  motion  to  strike  out  the  latter  clause.  He  said,  that 
Mr.  Scott's  whole  argument  had  gone  to  prove  eitlier  that  the  Judges  should  not  be 
removed,  or  that  they  should  be  allowed  their  whole  salary  during  life.  But  the  Ju- 
diciary Committee  had  been  of  opinion,  that  the  whole  Judicial  system  ought  to  be  re- 
organized, and  the  Judges  preserved.  No  attack  was  intended  by  him  on  the  inde- 
pendence of  the  Judiciary,  by  making  the  motion  to  strike  out  the  words  mentioned, 
nor  did  he  think  it  could  be  so  construed.  It  was  expected  that  a  new  Judicial  De- 
partment, as  well  as  a  new  Legislative  and  Executive,  was  to  be  established;  and  it 
was  as  proper  to  remove  all  the  present  Judges,  as  to  remove  the  officers  of  the  other 
Departments.  If,  from  any  cause,  some  of  them  should  not  be  re-appointed,  certainly 
the  Legislature  ought  not  to  be  directed  to  make  provision  for  them.  That  was  a 
power  which  properly  belonged  to  the  Legislature  and  not  to  the  Convention. 

The  question  being  taken  on  Mr.  Morgan's  motion,  it  was  decided  in  the  negative — 
Ayes  39,  Noes  46. 

(Mr.  Madison  and  Mr.  IMarshall,  No.) 

So  the  Committee  determined  to  retain  the  clause  which  allows  (but  does  not  re- 
quire) the  Legislature  to  compensate  old  and  infirm  Judges  who  lose  their  office  by 
the  adoption  of  the  new  Constitution,  and  are  not  re-appointed. 

Mr.  Doddridge  moved  to  amend  the  resolution  by  strildng  out  the  word  "  held," 
and  inserting  the  word  elected,"  so  as  to  make  it  read,  "  Resolved,  that  tbe  present 
Judges,  &c.  remain  in  office  until  the  expiration  of  the  first  session  of  the  Legislature 
elected  under  the  new  Constitution."  The  effect  of  which  change  would  be,  to  defer 
the  effect  of  the  resolution  upon  the  Judges  for  one  session  longer.  By  the  law  of  the 
last  session,  it  was  made  the  duty  of  the  Governor  to  convene  the  Assembly  under 
the  old  Constitution,  in  order  to  put  the  new,  if  accepted,  into  operation.  Now,  it 
was  usual  to  elect  members  to  the  Assembly  in  April :  and  the  vote  on  the  Constitu- 
tion by  the  people,  was  to  be  taken  on  the  same  da}-  and  at  the  same  place.  The  same 
inequality  of  representation  which  now  exists  in  the  Assembly,  will  continue  till  next 
Spring,  and  the  new  system  of  representation  will  not  go  into  effect  until  the  session 
after;  and  Mr.  D.  thought  it  not  advisable  that  the  new  organization  of  the  Judiciary 
should  take  effect  till  then.    That  object  would  be  effected  by  his  amendment. 

The  amendment  was  adopted. 

The  question  now  recurring  on  -ilr.  Henderson's  motion  to  strike  out  the  whole  of 
the  second  resolution, 

Mr.  Powell  opposed  it,  as  oroing  to  place  the  Legislature  in  a  most  unpleasant  situ- 
ation, should  the  number  of  fudges  be  reduced,  b}-  compelling  them  to  make  a  selec- 
tion among  the  Judges.  It  was  an  invidious  and  painful  task.  He  thought  it  far 
better  to  let  all  their  offices  expire  together  :  nobody  could  seriously  believe  they  would 
not  be  re-appointed,  unless  infirmity  and  disease  rendered  them  incapable  of  service. 

Mr.  Nicholas  was  in  favor  of  the  motion  to  strike  out.  He  saw  no  reason  why 
Judges  should  be  placed  on  a  dlfierent  footing  from  other  officers.  It  was  a  mere  sub- 
tilty  to  pretend  they  lost  their  offices  by  the  adoption  of  the  new  Constitution.  Why 
they  more  than  other  functionaries  ?  Were  all  the  officers  of  the  Government  to  be 
displaced  by  the  change.''  If  the  principle  was  true,  why  not  carry  it  out.''  Why  make 
the  Judges  alone,  the  object  of  a  proscription.'  He  had  voted  for  Mr.  IMorgan's  amend- 
ment, not  because  he  sliould  not  be  gratified  to  see  some  provision  made  for  old  and 
infirm  Judges,  who  had  lost  their  offices  without  a  fault ;  but  because  he  apprehended 
it  to  be  the  entering  wedge  of  a  system  of  pe}i.sion^.  He  dwelt  on  the  evils  of  such  a 
system,  particularly  as  felt  in  Great  Britain,  and  deprecated  its  introduction  here. 

He  bore  honorable  testimony  to  the  present  Judges,  as  men  of  probity  and  free  from 
injustice  and  oppression — inveighed  against  proscribing  the  whole  class  because  ob- 

76 


C02 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


jections  were  entertained  against  a  few  of  the  number—and  turning  them  adrift  after 
they  had  abandoned  every  other  occupation  to  serve  the  State,  in  an  arduous  and  re- 
sponsible station.  If  gentlemen  wish  to  get  rid  of  any  of  the  Judges,  there  was  a  plain 
path  provided — two-thirds  of  the  Legislature  could  remove  them  at  any  time,  accord- 
ing to  the  eighth  resolution.  As  to  what  was  said  about  the  certainty  that  all  good 
Judges  would  be  re-appointed,  he  had  not  enough  of  the  gift  of  prophecy  to  know 
that.  He  hoped  the  Convention  would  have  more  magnanimity,  than  to  take  away 
the  offices  of  all  those  worthy  men,  because  it  was  in  their  power  to  do  so. 

Mr.  Coalter  said,  he  had  thought  he  was  disqualified  from  voting  on  this  question, 
being  one  of  the  persons  implicated :  but,  he  was  told,  this  was  not  the  case.  He  had 
voted  on  Mr.  Morgan's  motion,  because  he  believed  he  did  not  come  within  the  de- 
scription in  the  clause,  which  that  gentleman  wished  to  strike  out.  The  clause  spoke 
of  such  "  as  from  their  age."  Now  he  did  not  consider  himself  as  yet  superannuated — 
"  Infirmities  !" — he  thanked  God  that  this  was  not  his  case — he  was  not  past  service 
on  that  score — but  was  able  to  work  as  hard  as  any  man  in  the  service  of  the  State — 
As  to  "past  services,"  he  should  advance  no  claim  on  that  score  either.  He  conclu- 
ded by  expressing  his  wisli  to  be  excused  from  voting  on  the  present  occasion. 

The  question  being  now  put  on  the  motion  to  strike  out,  it  was  negatived — Ayes  29. 

(Mr.  Marshall,  Aye.) 

So  the  second  resolution  was  retained — [See  it  above.] 

The  Committee  next  proceeded  to  the  third  resolution,  which  is  in  the  words  fol- 
lowing : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals  and  Inferior  Courts,  except 
justices  of  the  County  Courts,  and  the  aldermen  or  other  magistrates  of  Corporation 
Courts,  shall  be  elected  by  the  concurrent  vote  of  both  Houses  of  the  General  Assem- 
bly, each  House  voting  separately,  and  having  a  negative  on  the  other  ;  and  the  mem- 
bers thereof  voting  viva  voce.  The  votes  of  the  members  shall  be  entered  on  the  Jour- 
nals of  their  respective  Houses.  Should  the  two  Houses,  in  any  case,  fail  to  concur 
in  the  election  of  a  Judge,  during  the  session,  the  Governor  shall  decide  the  election, 
by  appointing  one  of  the  two  persons  who  first  received  a  majority  of  votes  in  the 
Houses  in  which  they  were  respectively  voted  for.  But  if  any  vacancy  shall  occur, 
during  the  recess  of  the  General  Assembly,  the  Governor,  or  other  person  performing 
the  duty  of  Governor,  may  appoint  a  person  to  fill  such  vacancy,  who  shall  continue 
in  office  until  the  end  of  the  next  succeeding  session  of  the  General  Assembly." 

Mr.  Wilson  moved  to  amend  the  resolution,  by  striking  out  the  word  "  concurrent" 
and  insei'ting  "joint,"  so  as  to  read  "  that  Judges,  &c.  shall  be  elected  by  the  joint 
vote  of  both  Houses." 

He  stated  his  reason  to  be,  that  if  there  was  any  difference  of  opinion  between  the 
two  Houses  on  a  nomination,  it  was  prosper  the  House  of  Delegates  should  prevail,  as 
being  the  direct  representatives  of  the  people  annually  elected,  and  the  most  nume- 
rous body. 

Mr.  Thompson  of  Amherst,  had  moved  the  resolution  in  the  Judicial  Committee, 
and  now  defended  it  against  the  proposed  amendment. 

He  considered  the  question  of  appointment  as  one  of  great  difficulty :  though  the 
act  of  appointment  being  neither  an  Executive,  Legislative  nor  Judicial  act,  in  strict- 
ness, the  principle  of  the  Bill  of  Rights,  which  related  to  keeping  those  departments 
separate,  did  not  apply.  The  question  was,  what  body  was  the  safest  depository  for 
the  appointing  power  ?  Certainly  not  the  people  ;  for  they  were  not  in  a  situation  to 
perform  the  duty.  In  what  body,  then,  was  the  trust  to  be  reposed.?  There  were 
objections  to  each.  He  had  once  thought  it  best  to  give  it  (after  the  example  of  some 
other  States,  and  of  the  United  States,)  to  the  Governor  and  Senate  ;  but  he  had 
heard  strong  objections  to  this  plan,  and  recent  events  in  the  Federal  Government 
had  discouraged  such  an  idea.  Then,  it  must  be  given  to  the  Legislative  body.  But 
jointly,  or  separately.''  ]f  jointly,  the  House  of  Delegates  becomes  the  appointing 
power,  having  a  large  majority  of  the  votes.  There  were  objections  to  this,  a  priori. 
The  popular  branch,  without  a  check,  and  subject  as  it  is  to  intrigues  and  cabals,  and 
the  influence  of  party  spirit,  and  "  log-rolling,"  seemed  an  improper  depository  for 
such  a  trust.  Very  bad  appointments  had  been  made ;  and  a  man  who  was  on  the 
floor  would  always  have  a  great  advantage  over  other  candidates. 

The  resolution  as  it  now  stood,  provided  a  check,  by  requiring  the  Senate  to  concur. 
And  if  a  check  in  the  Lower  House  was  thought  so  necessary  in  matters  of  ordinary 
legislation,  why  not  in  cases  of  appointment.?  But,  if  they  could  not  agree  on  the 
candidate  nominated,  another  candidate  was  to  be  taken  up,  and  the  two  bodies,  con- 
current, were  substituted  as  a  nominating  power.  This  gave  no  patronage  to  the 
Executive,  but  made  him  merely  an  umpire  :  he  could  not  go  far  wrong  by  taking 
either  candidate. 

Mr.  Wilson  replied,  no  objection  had  been  observed  in  practice  to  the  existing 
mode.  The  gentleman  from  Amherst  had  said,  to  make  the  election  a  joint  one,  was 
to  give  the  appointing  power  to  the  House  of  Delegates.    This  would  be  true,  if  that 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


603 


House  was  perfectly  and  alvrays  united  :  but  the  reverse  was  oflen  the  case.  He  had 
never  heard  of  a  single  instance,  where  they  were  thus  united.  But,  suppose  each 
House  to  be  united  on  their  own  candidate,  and  to  disagree  with  each  other.  This 
was  not  an  improbable  case  :  and  then  the  Governor  would  invariably  have  the  ap- 
pointment of  the  .Tudges,  which  was  the  very  evil  deprecated  by  the  gentleman  from 
Arnherst  himself. 

Mr,  Powell  called  for  a  division  of  the  question  on  striking  out  and  inserting,  and 
it  was  divided  accordingly  :  and  being  nov-  on  striking  out, 

Mr.  Giles  rose  in  favour  of  the  motion  to  strike  out.  He  was  in  favour  of  the  pre- 
sent mode  of  joint  election.  It  had  long  been  practised;  and  so  far  from  proving  any 
evil,  had  been  attended  with  the  greatest  good  that  could  be  looked  for  in  the  present 
state  of  human  nature,  which  was  trail  at  best.  He  diifered  entirely  from  the  gentle- 
man from  Amherst,  as  to  the  House  of  Delegates  being  a  theatre  for  intrigue,  party 
spirit,  lo0--rolling,"  &c.  His  experience  (though  not  great)  had  led  him  to  a  con- 
clusion directlv  the  reverse.  There  was.  to  be  sure,  much  conversation  and  much 
coraparinof  of  opinions ;  but.  this  was  all  right  and  proper,  and  ought  to  accompany 
every  election.  He  thougiit  the  simplicity  and  certainty  of  the  present  mode  were 
great  recommendations  of  it.  He  referred  to  the  experience  of  Pennsylvania,  where 
her  influence  on  a  turning  question  in  the  General  Government,  had  on  one  occasion 
been  endangered,  if  not  lost,  by  the  obstinate  adherence  of  two  branches  of  the  Le- 
gislature to  opposite  candidates. 

But,  these  reasons  were  subordinate  and  collateral.  His  great  and  controlling  rea- 
son for  wishing  the  resolution  to  remain  unchanged,  was,  that  it  involved  the  great 
question  of  intermediate  elections.  He  questioned  the  fitness  of  the  people  in  tlieir 
original  capacity,  to  elect  Judges  and  Militia  Officers,  or  indeed  any  other  function- 
aries, except  their  own  Representatives  in  the  State  and  General  Governments.  So 
long  as  they  could  perform  that  duty  well,  their  rights  and  liberties  were  secure.  It 
was  not  necessar\'  they  should  go  farther  in  their  own  persons. 

But.  this  was  not  a  mere  question  of  fitness  and  expediency,  such  as  that  respecting 
the  election  of  2vlilitia  Officers.  There  were  many  objections  to  the  people's  electing 
Judges.  Tiiey  were  not  able  to  judge  of  the  legal  qualifications  which  fitted  a  Judge 
for  his  office. 

Mr.  G.  said,  he  was  one  who  believed  that  the  principle  of  intermediate  elections 
must  be  eventually  called  in  to  save  this  country.  The  people,  in  our  svstem  of  Go- 
vernment, were  called  on  to  elect  so  many  officers  of  difierent  kinds,  that  they  must 
have  agents  to  do  for  them  that  wliich  they  could  not  do  for  themselves  :  and  what 
better  agents  could  they  have,  than  their  own  Representatives  in  the  Legislature 
What  was  the  object  of  appointing  these  Representatives .'  That  they  might  lay 
down  rules  of  conduct  for  the  community.  This  was  the  great  security  for  liberty. 
But  the  people  had  power  to  say,  that  they  would  not  take  the  task  of  appointing 
their  ministerial  officers,  because  they  had  not  sufficient  personal  knoyyledge  of  the 
qualifications  of  individuals,  but  would  lay  this  dut^r  upon  those  who  had  the  know- 
ledge, and  whom  they  had  already  entrusted  with  their  dearest  interests.  Mr.  G. 
here  referred  to  the  rapid  increase  of  oar  country  in  population,  and  insisted  on  the 
necessity  of  knowledcre  to  a  suitable  exercise  of  the  right  of  election.  This  the  people 
could  get  to  the  whole  extent  necessary  for  a  proper  selection  of  their  Pi.epresenta- 
lives,  but  not  to  fit  them  to  select  such  officers  as  their  Judges  and  Governors.  The 
moment  you  place  them  to  act  in  a  matter  beyond  their  sphere,  they  must  of  neces- 
sity depend  for  knowledge  on  somebody  else  ;  and  that  moment  they  were  thrown  into 
the  hands  of  electioneerers — recpular  thorough-going  electioneerers  :  and  of  all  the 
baneful  spirits  which  could  infest  the  community,  the  spirit  of  electioneering  was  the 
eery  worst. 

Mr.  G.  then  went  into  a  detailed  description  of  the  manner  in  which  elections  were 
conducted  in  the  House  of  Delegates  ;  and  contended,  that  what  was  called  log- 
rolling," was  in  most  cases  but  a  free  interchange  of  opinions,  with  a  view  to  en- 
lightened and  united  action.  He  insisted,  that  instead  of  tlirowing  all  elections 
into  the  hands  of  the  people,  and  all  the  patronage  of  the  Government  into  the  hands 
of  the  Governor,  let  the  election  be  fairly  coaducted  by  the  Legislatin-e,  and  their 
responsibility  to  the  people  would  be  enhanced  and  not  diminished. 

By  keeping  the  resolution  in  its  present  form,  Mr.  G.  thought  he  was  selecting 
electors  to  make  appointments  in  his  behalf. 

As  to  the  greater  numbers  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  the  two  Houses  were  amal- 
gamated into  one  body  for  the  purpose  of  the  election — they  acted  as  individuals,  not 
as  chambers.  The  amendment  would  cause  them  to  vote  as  two  chambers,  and  if 
they  disagreed,  the  power  would  be  wielded  by  the  umpire  between  them. 

The  question  being  taken  on  striking;  out  the  word  '•  concurrent.'"  it  was  carried. 

[Mr.  3Iadison  and  Mr.  Marshall,  Xo^.] 

The  question  being  then  on  inserting  the  word  -  joint."' 

INIr.  Mercer  wished  to  defer  it  until  the  number  and  constitution  of  the  Senate 
should  be  settled, 


604 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  Mason  thought,  after  the  last  vote,  that  the  necessity  of  the  whole  resolution 
was  done  away  with.  After  some  farther  conversation  between  Messrs.  Mercery 
Mason  and  Coalter,  the  question  was  taken,  and  decided  in  the  affirmative. 

So  the  Committee  inserted  the  word  "joint,"  deciding  that  the  election  of  Judges 
shall  be  by  a  joint  vote  of  both  Houses  of  the  Legislature. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Wilson,  the  following  part  of  the  resolution  was  then  stricken 
out : 

"  Each  House  voting  separately,  and  having  a  negative  on  the  other ;  and  the  mem- 
bers thereof  voting  viva  voce.  The  votes  of  the  members  shall  be  entered  on  the 
Journals  of  their  respective  Houses.  Should  the  two  Houses  in  any  case  fail  to  con- 
cur in  the  election  of  a  Judge  during  the  session,  the  Governor  shall  decide  the  elec- 
tion, by  appointing  one  of  the  two  persons  who  first  received  a  majority  of  votes  in 
the  Houses  in  which  they  were  respectively  voted  for," 

The  Committee  now  proceeded  to  consider  the  fourth  resolution,  which  is  in  these 
words : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals,  and  of  the  Inferior  Courts^ 
shall  receive  fixed  and  adequate  salaries,  which  shall  not  be  diminished  during  their 
continuance  in  office." 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Fitzhugh,  it  was  amended,  by  inserting  after  the  words  "Inferior 
Courts,"  these  words:  "  Except  justices  of  the  County  Courts,  and  the  aldermen,  or 
other  magistrates  of  Corporation  Courts." 

The  Committee  next  took  up  the  fifth  resolution,  which  reads  as  follows : 

"  Resolved,  That  on  the  creation  of  any  new  county,  justices  of  the  peace  shall  b© 
appointed  in  the  first  instance,  as  may  be  prescribed  by  law.  When  vacancies  shall 
occur  in  any  county,  or  it  shall  for  any  cause  be  deemed  necessary  to  increase  their 
number,  appointments  shall  be  made  by  the  Governor,  by  and  with  the  advice  ant! 
consent  of  the  Senate,  on  the  recommendation  of  their  respective  County  Courts." 

Mr,  Campbell  of  Brooke  moved  his  substitute  for  the  fifth  resolution,  prescribing 
the  mode  of  appointing  the  magistrates  of  County  Courts, 

After  some  conversation  between  Messrs,  Campbell  and  Leigh,  the  substitute  was 
rejected — Ayes  19, 

The  question  recurring  on  the  original  resolution, 

Mr.  Clay  tor  moved  to  amend  it,  by  striking  out  all  the  latter  clause,  viz  :  "  appoint- 
ments shall  be  made,"  &c.  (to  the  end,)  with  a  view  to  submit  an  amendment,  giving- 
the  filling  of  vacancies  to  the  Legislature.  He  was  unable,  from  indisposition,  to  g© 
into  a  discussion  of  his  reasons. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  should  vote  for  striking  out,  but  reserved  himself  as  to  filling  the 
vacancy. 

After  some  conversation  between  him  and  Mr.  Leigh, 

The  question  was  taken  on  striking  out,  and  rejected — Ayes  44,  Noes  48, 

[Mr.  Madison  and  Mr.  Marshall,  No.] 

Mr.  Marshall  said,  that  the  fate  of  the  motion  just  made,  shewed  it  to  be  very  de- 
cidedly the  sense  of  the  Committee,  that  vacancies  in  the  number  of  justices  were  to 
be  filled  by  the  Executive,  on  the  recommendation  of  the  County  Courts ;  but  this 
mode  of  appointment  could  be  preserved  in  its  purity  and  perfection,  only  by  requiring 
the  Executive  in  nominating,  and  the  Senate  in  deciding  on  his  nomination,  to  act  on 
all  the  recommendations  of  a  County  Court,  taken  as  a  whole.  If  this  were  not  re- 
quired, the  Governor  might  select  one,  or  two,  or  more  of  the  names  recommended, 
get  these  persons  appointed  and  commissioned,  and  thus  A^ery  materially  change  the 
character  of  the  court  which  m^ade  the  recommendations,  and  effect  the  same  thing  as 
by  the  original  power  of  appointment,  without  any  recommendation  by  the  County 
Court.  By  requiring  him  to  take  the  whole,  if  any,  you  retain,  said  Mr.  M.,  those 
magistrates  which  the  Court  wished  to  see  appointed,  and  thus  give  full  effect  to  their 
nomination. 

If  the  Executive  needs,  as  is  conceded,  to  be  instructed  as  to  who  are  proper  can- 
didates to  be  nominated,  and  who  not,  from  whom  is  he  to  ask  that  instruction,  rather 
than  from  the  County  Court  magistrates  themselves  ?  They  are  dispersed  through 
the  county  :  they  know  when  vacancies  occur ;  and  they  know  better  than  any  one 
else  who  are  fit  persons  to  fill  them.  To  whom  shall  the  Governor  appeal  rather  than 
to  them  ^  If  the  nomination  is  to  be  made  by  the  Executive,  all  must  agree  there  is 
no  source  of  information  so  valuable  to  him,  or  which  can  furnish  such  correct  and 
certain  intelligence. 

Suppose  it  left  in  the  choice  of  the  Executive  to  leave  out  some  of  the  persons  re- 
commended to  him,  and  to  retain  others,  how  is  he  to  learn  whom  to  admit  and  whom 
to  refuse  ?  All  gentlemen  feel  that  it  is  impossible  the  Governor,  personally,  should 
possess  such  knowledge  of  men  in  the  various  counties  throughout  the  Common- 
wealth, and  such  an  acquaintance  with  all  the  individuals  they  may  recommend,  so  as 
to  be  able  to  select  such  as  are  the  most  fit  from  among  them.  He  must  receive  in- 
formation from  othersj  either  privately  or  publicly  communicated  to  him ;  and  none 


DEBATES 


OF  THE 


CONVENTION. 


605 


can  make  a  communication  which  the  Executive  can  more  rely  upon  than  on  theirs. 
It  is  possible  that  some  individual  whom  they  have  recommended,  may  be  unworthy  ; 
he  may  have  been  guilty  of  some  offence,  even  after  being  recommended.  In  that 
case,  let  the  v.'hoie  recommendation  be  returned  to  be  revised  and  corrected,  and  let 
the  court  strike  out  such  names  as  they  please.  The  courts  themselves  can  alone 
know  how  to  select  proper  individuals,  unless  indeed  the  election  of  magistrates  is  to 
be  made  by  the  people  ;  but  that  is  a  point  not  presented  by  the  present  proposition. 
The  question  now  is,  on  the  recommendation  by  the  courts,  and  the  action  of  the 
Executive  upon  that  recommendation.  Let  him  be  required  to  act  upon  the  whole 
recommiendation,  and  either  nominate  all  or  none  of  the  individuals  it  contains. 

It  may  be  said,  that  if  the  Governor  recommends  the  whole,  the  subject  may  then 
be  left  to  the  discretion  of  the  Senate,  and  they  may  advise  the  appointment  of  some 
and  not  of  others  of  those  nominated.  What  will  be  the  effect  ?  The  Senate  will 
derive  the  information  on  which  it  acts,  from  that  member  of  its  own  body,  who  comes 
from  the  district  in  whicji  tJie  appointments  are  to  be  made  :  and  will  you  rather  sub- 
mit the  question  to  him  to  decide,  than  to  the  County  Courts?  If  the  Senate  reject 
some  of  the  persons  nominated,  they  must  do  so  on  some  information,  probably  that 
of  one  of  their  own  members  :  but  dJi  know  how  many  various  influences  may  ope- 
rate on  that  member,  which  do  not  upon  the  County  Courts.  He  has  his  supporters 
and  his  opponents,  his  friends  and  his  enemies  :  but,  this  can  have  no  influence  on  the 
justices  of  the  County  Court.  They  liave  no  motive  to  action  which  is  calculated  to 
lead  them  to  make  improper  recommendations. 

I  therefore  move  you.  Sir,  to  amend  the  resolution  as  follows  : 
But  the  whole  number  recommended  at  any  one  time,  shall  be  commissioned  or 
rejected." 

Mr.  Leigh  suggested  some  inconveniences  that  would  attend  the  plan  proposed  by 
the  Chief  Justice,  where  counties  were  distant  from  the  seat  of  Government.  So 
much  time  v."ould  be  occupied  in  correspondence,  that  if  a  recommendation  was  re- 
turned, before  the  County  Court  could  have  time  to  act  upon  the  case,  and  make  a 
new  recommendatiom  the  Senate  would  have  adjourned.  He  suggested  the  very  un- 
pleasant effects  that  would  be  occasioned,  if  tlie  reasons  were  to  be  assigned  why  the 
rejection  of  the  recommendation  had  been  made — the  destruction  of  character,  heart- 
burnings, &c.  This  vras  not  the  case  at  present;  because  when  one  was  rejected,  it 
might  be  supposed  to  have  been  done,  lest  the  bench  should  become  more  numerous 
than  the  wants  of  the  county  rendered  necessary,  and  the  same  candidate  was  always 
recommended  again.  Thus  character  was  spared.  So  invariabl}'  was  this  the  case, 
that  an  individual,  when  passed  over  in  a  recommendation  for  the  shrievalty,  was 
heard  by  counsel  before  the  Executive  Council. 

Mr.  Campbell  said,  the  remarks  of  both  the  gentlemen  had  only  convinced  him, 
that  neither  Governor  nor  Council  ought  to  be  troubled  in  the  case  at  all.  Let  the 
County  Court  who  now  recomauend,  have  power  also  to  appoint :  for  there  it  ended 
at  last. 

Mr.  Giles  went  into  a  statement  of  the  manner  in  which  the  matter  was  conducted 
at  present,  from  which  it  appeared  that  though  the  Governor  was  held  to  have  a  per- 
fect right  to  reject  any  one  or  more  of  those  recommended  to  him,  from  delicacy  it 
had  never  been  done  durinfr  his  term  of  office.  Scrutiny  into  individual  character 
was  rare,  though  it  was  sometimes  made.  He  declared  on  the  whole,  his  purpose  to 
vote  in  favour  of  Mr.  Marshall's  proposition.  He  could  not  avoid  again  going  into  a 
general  commendation  of  the  existing  County  Court  system,  as  throwing  power  into 
the  hands  of  the  middle  class  of  tlie  community. 

Mr.  Marshall  having  for  a  moment  withdrawn  liis  former  amendment,  after  a  few- 
prefatory  remarks,  moved  to  amend  the  resolution  b}^  striking  out  the  words  "  bj-and 
witli  the  consent  of  the  Senate."    "Whicli  Avas  agreed  to, 

JNIr.  Macrae  moved  as  a  substitute  the  following : 
Provided,  Jioiccrer,  That  if  any  person  be  reconnnended  tofili  any  such  vacancy,  or 
new  appointment,  and  shall  be  disapproved  b}-  the  Governor,  such  person  shall  not  be 
again  recommended  to  fill  the  same  vacancy,  or  new  appointment." 

He  said,  it  was  with  great  diffidence  that  he  ventured  upon  any  question,  and  more 
especially,  upon  one  relating  to  our  Judicial  system,  to  difler  from  the  venerable  gen- 
tleman from  Richmond  ;  but  great  and  virtuous  men  in  this  bod}'  had  differed  upon 
almost  every  proposition  presented  for  our  consideration  ;  and  each  individual  (though 
humble  as  he  himself  was)  must  rely  upon  his  own  judgment,  and  could  find  no  guide 
in  authority.  He  was  disposed  rather  to  enlarge,  than  fetter  the  veto  of  the  Execu- 
tive upon  the  recommendation  of  the  Covmty  Courts  for  appointments  to  the  magis- 
tracy. The  present  mode  had  been  regarded  by  many  as  anti-republican  in  theory ; 
and  in  some  instances,  it  had  been  mischievous  in  practice  :  and  he  was  disposed  to  ap- 
ply a  constitutional  corrective,  if  one  could  be  devised  likely  to  be  adequate  to  its  end. 
In  matters  of  Government,  he  did  not  profess  to  be  much  influenced  by  mere  theory: 
he  should  seek  the  discovery  of  tlie  principles  that  would  work  well ;  and  he  would 


606 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


apply,  as  well  as  deduce  them  in  reference  to  their  practical  consequences.  He  feared 
that  the  various  schemes  of  appointment  offered  in  place  of  that  provided  by  the  ex- 
isting Constitution,  would  induce  more  evil  than  they  would  remedy.  The  present 
mode,  he  believed,  had,  in  general,  filled  the  magistracy  with  the  best  men  in  every 
county  ;  and  had,  at  least,  procured  as  good  men  as  would  probably  have  been  se- 
lected in  any  other  mode.  It  had,  therefore,  in  the  main  answered  its  purpose  ;  and 
he  was  disposed  to  retain  it;  but  he  would  subject  it  to  such  modification  as  would  in 
his  judgment  correct  its  irregular  action.  The  County  Courts  had  been  called  a  self- 
elective  magistracy  ;  but  they  were  not :  they  were  a  self-nominating  body  ;  and  the 
Executive  made  the  appointments,  and  exercised  a  negative  upon  the  recommenda- 
tion of  the  coui-ts.  He  referred  to  the  opinion  expressed  by  Mr.  Jefferson  ;  and  he 
believed  instances  had  occured  of  favouritism  from  family  influence,  and  party  feel- 
ings. If  a  family,  or  a  faction  should  attempt  to  perpetuate,  or  strengthen  itself  on 
the  bench  of  a  county,  in  what  manner  could  it  be  frustrated  but  by  the  due  exercise 
of  the  veto  of  the  Executive  ?  And  how  could  that  veto  be  made  effectual,  if,  after 
the  rejection  of  a  recommendation  by  the  Executive,  the  court  could  renew  it?  It 
had  been  said  that  the  Executive  might  be  misled,  and  be  disposed  to  recal  its  disap- 
proval :  but  this  objection  might  be  obviated  by  providing,  that  the  rejected  nomina- 
tion might  be  renewed  with  the  assent  of  the  Executive.  It  had  been  said,  too,  that 
the  amendment  would  operate  a  total  disqualification  of  the  persons  recommended 
and  rejected;  but  this  was  a  mistake ;  it  only  prevented  a  renewal  of  the  same  nomi- 
nation to  fill  the  same  vacancy,  and  a  perpetual  see-saw  between  the  Executive  and 
the  court.  The  gentleman  from  Richmond  had  insisted,  that  the  Executive  was  not 
as  competent  to  make  a  due  selection  of  justices,  as  the  courts  of  the  counties  where 
they  reside ;  but  he  answered  that  the  Executive  must  be  presumed  to  be  as  compe- 
tent to  exercise  its  veto,  as  the  courts  were  to  prefer  their  nominations:  each  acted 
in  a  mode,  and  upon  information,  appropriate  to  the  particular  functions  delegated  to 
them.  The  Executive  was  competent,  or  it  was  not :  if  competent,  it  ought  to  have 
power  to  make  its  veto  effectual  to  the  end  for  which  it  was  given;  and,  if  not,  the 
veto  should  be  taken  away  from  it,  and  the  recommendations  of  the  courts  should  be 
without  controul.  He  did  not  pretend  that  his  amendment  would  be  effectual  in  all 
clises  ;  but  he  believed  it  would  have  a  salutary  tendency  to  prevent,  or  check  the 
evils  it  was  designed  to  remedy. 

Mr.  Marshall  opposed  the  amendment,  as  going  to  disqualify  forever,  a  man,  against 
whom  any  objection  was  once  made. 

The  Governor  might  send  back  a  recommendation,  simply  because  it  contained  too 
anany  persons:  yet,  according  to  Mr.  Macrae's  proposition,  they  were  all  to  be  dis- 
qualified, and  among  them,  perhaps  the  fittest  man  in  the  county. 

Mr.  Macrae  said  in  reply,  that  the  extent  of  his  amendment  has  been  misunder- 
stood :  it  only  referred  to  the  same  vacancy  for  which  the  individual  had  been  recom- 
mended, and  not  to  any  other.  He  mentioned  the  dissatisfaction  among  the  people, 
in  respect  to  these  courts,  and  the  desirableness  of  removing  it.  As  to  the  objection, 
so  far  as  it  did  apply,  it  could  be  obviated  by  a  slight  alteration  of  the  resolution.  He 
.thought  the  measure  calculated  to  lead  to  a  different  practice  in  the  County  Courts, 
and  prevent  the  present  see-saw  between  them  and  the  Executive. 

The  question  being  taken  on  Mr.  Macrae's  amendment,  it  was  rejected. 

Being  taken  on  that  of  Mr.  Marshall,  it  was  also  rejected. 

(Mr.  Madison  and  Mr.  Marshall,  aye.) 

Mr.  Macrae  now  offered  another  amendment,  referring,  for  his  justification,  to  the 
•earnest  interest  of  a  portion  of  his  constituents,  in  this  matter.    It  was  as  follows : 

"  Justices  of  the  peace  shall  be  commissioned  during  good  behaviour,  but  may  be 
i-emoved  in  the  manner  which  shall  be  prescribed  by  law,  for  misbehaviour  in  office, 
crime,  neglect  of  duty,  removal  from  the  respective  counties,  or  insolvency." 

He  said,  that  as  to  the  first  provision,  all  must  agree  :  the  fountains  of  justice  ought 
not  to  be  polluted  by  crime.  It  had  been  said,  indeed,  that  this  case  had  been  pro- 
vided for  by  law :  but  he  thought  it  would  be  found,  upon  examination,  that  the  jus- 
tices of  the  peace  were  only  removable  for  misbehaviour  in  office,  and  not  for  offences 
unconnected  with  their  public  duty.  He  would  not  say,  that  a  man  without  property, 
would  not  give  a  fair  decision  on  questions,  where  property  was  concerned  ;  he  would 
not  say  that  a  man  who  did  not  pay  his  own  debts,  was  in  all  cases,  an  improper  de- 
pository of  the  power  of  compelling  other  people  to  pay  theirs ;  but  he  would  say, 
that  a  very  general  impression  prevailed,  and  it  appeared  to  him,  not  without  reason, 
that  such  a  condition  was  extremely  unfavourable  to  the  impartial  and  firm  adminis- 
tration of  justice,  between  debtor  and  creditor.  This  branch  of  our  polity,  was  one 
very  peculiar  in  its  constitution ;  and  it  had  been  found  necessary  to  enforce  the  per- 
formance of  its  multifarious  functions,  by  subjecting  its  administrators  to  a  pecuniary 
responsibility,  in  many  important  cases.  Deprivation  of  this  office  was  no  punish- 
ment ;  for  it  was  an  office  of  labour  and  expense  to  the  incumbent,  and  was  without 
(emolument;  and  hence,  the  law  has  considered  it  necessary  to  enforce  its  regular  ad- 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


607 


ministration,  by  the  imposition  of  fines — a  security,  and  an  important  one  too,  which 
totally  fails,  in  relation  to  insolvents.  They  are  required  to  aid  in  important  Execu- 
tive functions}  and  if  they  are  guilty  of  neglect,  they  are  subject  to  pecuniary  penal- 
ties. They  are  entrusted  with  the  administration  or  disposition  of  important  funds, 
both  public  and  private,  in  respect  to  which,  the  best  pledge  of  their  fidelity,  and  that 
relied  on  by  law,  is  their  pecuniary  responsibility.  They  are  required  to  take  ade- 
quate security  from  executors  and  ether  fiduciaries  of  estates;  and,  if  they  fail  to  do 
so,  they  are  made  liable  out  of  their  own  propert3\  AVhat  will  this  safe-guard  avail, 
if  the  bench  be  occupied  by  insolvent  justices,  as  is  sometimes  the  case  ?  And  may 
not  this  defect  of  responsibility,  lead  to  iniquitous  combinations  to  defraud  orphans .'' 
Mischiefs  of  this  sort  have  happened;  and  altliough.  happily,  they  have  been  few  in 
number,  owing  to  the  general  respectability  and  responsibility  of  the  County  Court 
magistrates,  it  had  been  better  to  have  prevented  even  those  few.  The  County 
Courts  are  invested  with  a  sort  of  Legislative  character ;  and  in  that  character  they 
impose,  and  appropriate  the  county  taxes.  This  duty  is  assigned  to  them  by  law.  It 
has  been  often  objected  to  it,  that  it  was  performed  by  men  who  were  not  elected  b}-  and 
responsible  to  the  people;  and  the  answer  has  been,  that  a  very  sufficient  security  was 
afforded  in  the  fact,  that  the  justices  participated  in  the  burthens  which  they  imposed. 
But  what  security  is  there  in  a  bench  of  insolvents  ?  And,  if  only  a  part  be  insolvent, 
as  is  the  fact,  I  believe,  in  every  county,  is  not  the  security  proportionably  diminished? 
Do  we  not  sometimes  see  that  part  only  occupying  the  bench  to  the  injury  of  public 
justice,  and  the  great  offence  of  the  people  ?  And  ought  we  not  to  endeavour  to  se~ 
cure  to  all  our  institutions,  and  more  especially  to  our  courts  of  justice,  the  confidence, 
and  atfections  of  the  people,  which  are  so  essential  to  their  beneficent  operation  ?  Ac- 
tual evils  have  resulted  from  this  defect.  I  have  heard  upon  good  authority,  of  one- 
instance,  in  which,  an  insolvent  court  appointed  an  insolvent  sheriff",  and  look  from 
him  insolvent  sureties  ;  and  the  report  is  that  the  infamous  combination  divided  among 
them  the  spoils  of  their  fraud.  These  remarks,  Sir,  are  intended  to  be  general,  and 
not  to  apply  to  any  particular  county,  or  any  particular  individuals.  The  district 
which  I  in  part  represent,  has  no  peculiar  cause  of  complaint  on  this  subject;  al- 
though a  portion  of  my  constituents  think  the  evil  of  sufficient  magnitude  to  call  for 
redress.  I  know,  too,  insolvents  who  have  my  most  perfect  confidence  :  but  there 
are  others  who  have  not ;  and  as  the  people  have  no  choice,  can  make  no  discrimina- 
tion, we  must  adopt  a  general  rule  which  will  exclude  all. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  that  all  the  cases  in  the  amendment  were  provided  for  already^ 
except  that  of  insolvency. 

Mr.  Macrae  replied,  that  justices  held  their  offices  during  good  behaviour,  and  that 
was  held  to  refer  to  their  official  conduct  alone. 

Mr.  Joynes  moved  to  strike  out  the  word  •■  insolvency."    Which  was  carried. 

Mr.  Cla^'tor  moved  to  amend,  by  adding  the  words,  "  or  incapacity  for  tlie  discharge; 
of  the  duties  of  their  office." 

The  amendment  was  negatived. 

The  question  being  then  taken  on  Mr.  Macrae's  amendment,  it  was  rejected. 
(Mr.  Madison,  aye  :  ^Ir.  Marshall,  no.) 

The  Committee  then  took  up  the  remaining  resolutions  of  the  Judicial  Committee, 
which  were  passed  without  amendment,  and  are  as  follow : 

Resolved,  That  the  Clerks  of  the  several  courts  shall  be  appointed  by  their  respec- 
tive courts,  and  their  tenure  of  office  be  prescribed  by  law. 

Resolved,  That  the  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals  and  of  the  Inferior  Courts, 
offending  against  the  Slate,  either  by  mal-administration,  corruption,  or  neglect  of 
duty,  or  by  any  other  high  crime  or  misdemeanor,  shall  be  impeachable  by  the  House 
of  Delegates,  such  impeachment  to  be  prosecuted  before  ihe  Senate.  If  found  guilty 
by  a  majority  of  two-thirds  of  the  whole  Senate,  such  persons  shall  be  removed  from 
office.  And  any  Judge  so  impeached,  shall  be  suspended  from  exercising  the  func- 
tions of  his  office  until  his  acquittal,  or  mitil  the  impeachment  shall  be  discontinued 
or  withdrawn. 

Resolved,  That  Judges  may  be  removed  from  office  by  a  vote  of  the  General  As- 
sembly ;  but  two-thirds  of  the  whole  number  of  each  House  must  concur  in  such 
vote,  and  the  cause  of  removal  shall  be  entered  on  the  journals  of  each.  The  Judge 
against  whoin  the  Legislature  is  about  to  proceed,  shall  receive  notice  thereof,  ac- 
companied with  a  copy  of  the  causes  alleged  for  his  removal,  at  least  twenty  days 
before  the  day  on  which  either  House  of  the  General  Assembly  shall  act  thereupon." 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Campbell  (of  Brooke.)  the  Committee  then  rose,  and  the  House 
adjourned. 


608 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION* 


FRIDAY,  December  11,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  in  the  First  Baptist  Church  at  11  o'clock,  and  its  sitting  was 
opened  witli  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr.  Croes  of  the  Episcopal  Church. 

Mr.  Campbell,  from  the  Committee  appointed  to  procure  a  House  for  the  sittings 
of  the  Convention,  made  a  report  in  part. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Summers,  the  Convention  proceeded  to  the  appointment  of  an 
additional  door-keeper,  rendered  necessar}'^  by  its  present  situation  :  and  Mr.  George 
R.  Myers  v^^as  appointed  vidthout  opposition. 

The  Convention  then  went  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  Gordon  in  the  Chair: 
and  the  report  of  the  Judicial  Committee  being  still  under  consideration, 

Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour  moved  to  amend  the  first  resolution  of  the  report,  by  striking 
therefrom  the  following  words :  "  no  modification  or  abolition  of  any  court  shall  be 
construed  to  deprive  any  Judge  thereof  of  his  office ;  but  such  Judge  shall  perform 
any  judicial  duties  which  the  Legislature  shall  assign  him." 

Mr.  Barbour  said,  he  had  no  idea  of  detaining  the  Committee  with  any  argument 
at  large  on  the  subject  of  the  amendment,  being  fully  sensible  that  the  condition  of 
the  Committee  and  the  value  of  every  hour  of  its  time  ahke  forbade  it :  he  should 
state  concisely  two  or  three  of  the  reasons  which  had  led  him  to  offer  the  amendment 
and  add  a  few  remarks  on  the  general  subject.  He  was  aware  that  the  question  was 
necessarily  involved  in  some  difficulty.  He  took  it  for  granted,  the  object  intended 
by  the  clause  he  had  moved  to  strike  out  was,  to  guard  against  any  evils  happening  in 
Virginia,  which  had  occurred  elsewhere,  and  which  attended  the  possihility  that  the 
Legislature,  when  it  should  find  itself  unable,  either  by  impeachment  or  by  a  vote  of 
two-thirds  of  the  members  of  both  Houses  to  get  rid  of  an  obnoxious  or  unpopular 
Judge,  might  attempt  to  effect  the  object  by  abolishing  the  office  which  he  held ;  and 
the  arguments  in  favour  of  the  provision,  had  reference  to  a  memorable  case  which 
happened  about  twenty  years  since,  the  circumstances  of  w^hich  he  should  not  stop  to 
retrace  :  but  would  proceed  to  remark  upon  the  apprehended  difficulties. 

It  was  certainly  true,  that  there  was  a  jwssibility  that  the  Legislature  of  Virginia 
might  pursue  such  a  course  :  he  believed  it  to  be  true  that  a  course  of  conduct  very 
like  it,  had  been  adopted  in  Maryland  and  in  Kentucky,  and  that  there  was  consider- 
able excitement  in  the  public  mind  upon  the  subject.  But,  if  the  mere  possibility  of 
abuse  was  to  be  relied  on  as  an  argument  in  its  naked,  unmodified,  unqualified 
shape,  then  no  power  at  all  could  be  conferred  by  the  Constitution  ;  for,  all  power  in 
human  hands,  was  liable  to  abuse.  But,  if  it  was  only  said  that  this  principle  ought  to 
govern  in  the  distribution  of  power,  viz:  not  to  give  it  where  there  was  a  strong  and 
reasonable  probability  of  its  abuse,  if  the  abuse  was  only  possible  and  the  advantages 
to  be  derived  from  conferring  it  were  great  enough  to  compensate  for  running  the 
risk,  then  it  ought  to  be  conferred.  As  to  Kentucky,  he  spoke  doubtfully  and  not 
from  full  knowledge,  but  he  believed  that  after  a  period  of  great  but  temporary  ex- 
citement, the  sound  sense  of  the  reflecting  part  of  the  community  had  eventually 
prevailed.  In  Virginia,  however,  without  claiming  any  peculiar  exemption  from  evil 
as  peculiar  to  her  citizens  over  others,  he  had  supposed  that  there  was  a  sedateness  of 
character  and  a  fixedness  of  habit,  a  sense  of  propriety — a  moral  sense — a  regard  to 
reputation,  and  a  consciousness  of  responsibility  to  the  people,  which  would  prevent 
such  an  abuse  from  ever  taking  place.  Let  me  endeavor  to  shew  the  Committee 
what  will  be  the  result  of  retaining  the  clause  in  question.  It  declares  that  "  no  modi- 
fication or  abolition  of  any  court  shall  be  construed  to  deprive  any  Judge  thereof  of 
his  office;  but  such  Judge  shall  perform  any  judicial  duties  which  the  Legislature 
shall  assign  him."  Suppose  that  in  the  progress  of  our  history  and  experience,  it 
shall  be  found  that  certain  courts  at  present  recognized  by  our  judicial  system  are  in 
effect  useless,  or  worse  :  but  that  on  a  re-organization  of  the  system  it  should  be 
found  that  there  remained  more  Judges  than  could  be  beneficially  employed,  this  pro- 
vision, if  left  to  stand  in  the  Constitution,  will  prevent  the  Legislature  from  ridding 
the  state  of  the  existing  evil.  Let  me  illustrate  this  for  one  moment.  Let  me  sup- 
pose, (I  do  not  say  it  is  my  opinion  that  the  Legislature  ought,  but  they  might,  and 
it  is  supposable  that  they  might  consider  it  correct,  and  might  wish  to  do  such  a 
thing,)  let  me  suppose  in  reference  to  the  Supreme  Court  or  Court  of  Appeals,  that 
instead  of  enjoining  the  Judges  to  go  through  the  State,  performing  Nisi  Prius  cir- 
cuits and  having  the  causes  adjudged  in  banc  at  the  seat  of  Government,  it  should 
choose  to  confine  its  sessions  to  this  plan,  and  should  thereby  dispense  with  the  servi- 
ces of  a  part  of  the  Judges  :  or  let  me  suppose  that  they  should  undertake,  as  has  been 
much  talked  of  lately,  to  unite  Chancery  and  Common  Lavv^  jurisdiction:  all  the 
Chancellors  would  at  once  become  unnecessary.  I  could  imagine  other  cases,  but  I 
will  not  detain  the  Committee.  I  quoted  these  merely  to  illustrate  the  position  that 
we  ought  not,  out  of  fear  that  the  Legislature  may  do  wrong,  so  tie  vip  their  hands  as 
to  prevent  them  from  doing  right.  If  the  Legislature  in  its  wisdom,  should  find  that 
there  are  more  Judges  than  can  be  usefully  occupied,  and  wishing  to  rejnedy  the  caae, 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


609 


this  provision  puts  it  out  of  their  power.  >'one  I  presume  can  intend,  that  any  indi- 
vidual shall  receive  the  emoluments  of  an  office,  which  does  not  exist.  If  we  could 
bring  ourselves  to  suppose  that  the  Legislature  out  of  mere  wantonness,  would  vacate 
a  Judge  by  the  abolition  of  his  office,  it  would  no  doubt  be  a  great  evil :  but  would  it 
not  be  a  greater  to  say  that  they  shall  not  abolish  the  office  effectually,  because  the 
Judge  must  still  remain  in  office?  I  submit  to  gentlemen  whether  this  would  not  be 
the  greater  evil  of  the  two. 

I  believe  that  no  practical  danger  like  that  suggested  is  at  all  to  be  apprehended: 
I  believe  that  the  responsibility  of  the  Representative  and  his  regard  to  reputation, 
that  the  character  of  the  people  of  Virginia  and  its  Legislation,  authorise  me  to  say 
that  such  a  thing  is  not  possible.  Surely  we  ought  not,  from  apprehension  of  any 
such  dano^er.  to  encounter  a  great  and  positive  evil. 

It  has  been  suggested,  however,  that  the  end  may  be  attained  by  what  is  provided 
in  the  eighth  resolution.  That  resolution  reads,  Resohed,  That  Judges  may  be  re- 
moved from  office  by  a  vote  of  the  General  Assembly:  but  two-thirds  of  the  whole 
number  of  each  House  must  concur  in  such  vote,  and  the  cause  of  removal  shall  be 
entered  on  the  Journals  of  each.  The  Judge  against  whom  the  Legislature  is  about 
to  proceed,  shall  receive  notice  thereof,  accompanied  with  a  copy  of^the  causes  alle- 
ged for  his  removal,  at  least  twenty  days  before  the  day  on  which  either  House  of  the 
General  Assembly  shall  act  thereupon." It  must  be  obvious  to  the  Committee,  frorn 
an  eye  glance,  that  this  contemplates  the  removal  of  a  Judge  from  an  office  which 
exists,  and  wiiich  will  continue  after  his  exclusion,  and  not  to  the  case  where  the  of- 
fice itself  will  have  ceased,  when  he  no  longer  occupied  it.  It  speaks  of  the  Judge 
being  *•  removed /m?rt,  office:"'  tliis  undoubtedly  contemplates  that  his  removal  will 
creafe  a  vacancy  in  an  office  still  to  continue :  but  cannot  properly  apply  to  the  sup» 
posed  case  of  the  abolition  of  the  office  itself. 

This  idea  is  confirmed  by  consulting  the  context.  The  Judge  against  whom  the 
Legislature  is  about  to  proceed  shall  receive  notice  thereof,  accompanied  with  a  copy 
of  the  causes  alleged  for  his  removal;"  causes  personal  to  him,  and  relating  to  some 
offence  he  is  alleged  to  have  committed — but  the  office  still  continues  readv,  to  be 
filled  by  others,  if  he  shall  be  excluded  from  it,  but  which  if  he  succeeds  in  repelling 
the  charge,  he  will  continue  himself  to  fill.  The  two  clauses  are  to  be  considered  to- 
gether. The  one  says  the  Judge  may  be  removed,  the  other  says  that  this  rnay  not 
be  done  by  the  abolition  of  his  office.  The  amount  would  be,  that  the  Judge  shall  not 
cease  to  be  a  Judge — and  yet,  what?  that  you  may  remove  him  from  office  because 
you  wish  to  get  rid  of  him.  But  the  Judge  is  called  upon  with  notice  of  the  causea 
alleged  for  his  removal,  not  that  he  may  argue  with  the  Legislative  body  about  the 
continuance  of  his  office  :  no;  but  to  repel  the  charges  brought  against  him.  And  I 
say  that  no  Legislature  on  earth  with  these  two  clauses  before  them,  would  feel  au- 
thorised to  dispose  of  a  Judge  by  the  abolition  of  his  office,  when  the  other  clause 
says  that  by  its  abolition  he  shall  not  be  removed  for  being  a  Judge. 

I  will  now  add  two  or  three  remarks,  and  then  resume  my  seat. 

I  am  well  aware  the  question  is  a  difficult  one.  The  independence  of  the  Judicia- 
ry— I  mean  its  just  and  reasonable  independence — is  what  I  will  never  break  in 
upon  :  but  I  will  not  consent  to  make  the  office  of  a  Judge  continue  against  the  will 
of  the  Legislature  and  of  the  people.  The  Legislature  will  never  attempt  to  abolish 
the  office  of  a  Judge,  unless  they  shall  deliberately  beheve  it  to  be  for  the  public  good  : 
and  then  they  ought  to  have  the  power  to  do  it.  There  is  a  possibilitij.  I  grant,  that 
tliey  might  abolish  it  for  the  sake  of  cretting  rid  of  three  letters  of  the  alphabet,  and 
immediately  reinstate  it  for  the  salie  of  putting  into  it  three  other  letters  in  their 
room :  such  a  thing  is  possible  :  but  I  will  not  impute  such  a  purpose  to  the  Legisla- 
ture of  my  native  State,  and  from  the  dread  of  such  a  deed,  tie  up  their  hands  from 
abolishing  an  office  which  they  have  found  to  be  useless  and  injurious. 

Mr.  Venable  said  he  was  in  favor  of  the  resolution  as  it  stood,  and  against  the  mo- 
tion to  strike  out.  I  have  considered  this  subject,  said  Mr.  V^..  and  looked  at  the  evils 
on  both  sides:  and  I  am  disposed  to  take  that  v,-hich  I  think  the  best.  If  the  Assem- 
bly should  wish  to  get  rid  of  some  Judge  or  Judges,  they  may  not,  to  be  sure,  be  aa 
infirm  as  the  Legislatures  of  some  of  our  neighbors:  but  if  they  should,  it  will  bring 
a  great  stain  upon  our  character:  and  the  moment  they  shall  recover  from  the  tem- 
porary heat  and  excitement  under  which  they  did  the  act,  they  must  themselves  be- 
come convinced  that  they  have  done  very  wrong.  On  the  other  hand,  suppose  the 
chanore  or  abolition  of  a  particular  court  should  leave  a  few  Judges  to  spare,  what  will 
be  the  mighty  mischief?  They  will  only  have  to  go  into  some  one  of  the  other  courts 
during  the  remaining  period  of  their  fife ;  and  when  they  die,  there  will  be  an  end  of 
the  difficulty. 

They  will  always  be  valuable  elsewhere,  if  not  in  the  court  where  they  were  at 
first  ap'pointed — and  where  is  the  great  difficulty  ?  But  I  should  consider  it,  and  my 
friend  from  Orange  acknowledges^that  it  would  be.  a  great  evil  indeed,  if  the  Assem- 
bly of  Virginia  should  be  tempted  to  abolish  a  court  for  tl:e  sake  of  getting  rid  of  a 

T7 


610 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Judge.  This  was  the  view  of  the  subject  which  was  taken  in  the  Judicial  Committee, 
and  I  feel  confident  that  the  clause  ought  to  be  retained. 

Mr.  Stanard  expressed  his  surprise  that  his  acute  and  sagacious  friend  from  Orange 
(Mr.  Barbour,)  had  totally  misconceived  the  terms  and  scope  of  the  clause  he  wished 
to  strike  out,  and  had  supposed  that  the  terms  of  the  eighth  resolution  could  in  no  pos- 
sible contingency  be  found  a  remedy  to  the  case  where  a  honajide  honest  abolition  of 
one  court  was  desired,  and  the  substitution  of  another  differently  organized  in  its  room. 
Let  us  look  to  his  general  reasoning.  He  thinks  proper  to  indulge  in  the  pleasing 
anticipation  that  so  much  morality  and  integrity  exists  now,  and  will  forever  hereaf- 
ter continue  to  exist  in  the  Legislature,  that  he  cannot  expect  it  as  probable,  nay,  not 
as  possible,  or  barely  so,  that  a  spirit  will  be  dominant  in  that  body,  that  will  lead  to 
the  expedient  of  repealing  a  law  organizing  a  particular  court,  and  then  to  re-enact  it 
for  the  sake  of  getting  rid  of  some  obnoxious  Judge.  And  he  thinks  this,  in  the  face 
of  the  experience,  the  very  recent  experience,  of  two  of  our  neighboring  States,  be- 
sides other  examples  wliich  might  be  quoted,  in  total  oblivion  of  what  passes  under 
his  eyes,  and  what  we  all  know  daily  to  happen,  viz:  that  when  the  passions  are 
highly  excited,  no  means  that  the  Constitution  allows  will  remain  unemployed  to 
gratify  those  passions.  What  v/as  the  course  pursued  in  Kentucky Under  the  in- 
fluence of  passion,  a  majority  of  the  Legislature  became  embodied  against  certain 
Judges  of  that  State  :  but  their  Constitution  imposed  a  clog  upon  their  movements, 
(just  such  as  this  eighth  resolution  of  ours  proposes  to  do;)  it  required  two-thirds  of 
both  Houses  to  put  the  Judges  out  of  office.  After  an  impassioned  struggle,  they 
failed  to  obtain  the  requisite  number ;  and  frustrated  in  their  plans  of  vengeance,  the 
majority  resorted  to  the  exercise  of  a  power  which  their  Constitution  did  not  forbid, 
and  forthwith  passed  a  law  discarding  the  whole  court,  and  turning  every  Judge  out 
of  his  office ;  and  then  immediately  re-instated  the  court  with  new  Judges.  Sir,  will 
this  never  be  attempted  here  ?  Will  not  some  inflamed  majority,  unable  under  the 
eighth  resolution,  to  accomplish  their  object,  attempt  to  do,  what  the  amendment  of 
the  gentleman  almost  invites  them  to  do?  I  know  not  why  we  are  to  be  free  from 
the  passions  which  sway  other  men. 

The  provisions  of  the  clause  proposed  to  be  stricken  out,  are  the  more  necessary, 
in  consequence  of  that  in  the  eighth  resolution.  And  has  the  gentleman  who  pro- 
fesses (and  I  doubt  not  sincerely  feels)  such  friendship  for  an  independent  Judiciary, 
looked  to  the  influence  which  his  measure  will  give  to  the  Legislature  over  the  Ju- 
dicial body  ?  So  far  as  it  operates,  its  tendency  is  to  mould  the  Judge  to  the  Legisla- 
tive will.  It  certainly  lays  him  under  the  strongest  temptation  not  to  go  in  contra- 
riety to  that  will.  Here  Mr.  S.  put  the  case  of  an  unconstitutional  law  having  been 
passed,  and  the  trying  situation  of  the  Judiciary,  if  liable  to  have  their  office  legis- 
lated from  under  them.  But  for  this  provision,  ever}'-  modification  of  a  Court  may 
incorporate  the  repeal  of  the  commissions  of  its  Judges,  and  put  every  Judge  out  of 
office  by  a  stroke  of  the  pen.  The  Legislature  cannot  provide  for  the  continuance  of 
a  Judge  in  oflice,  by  mere  act  of  law.  If  the  law  constituting  the  court  is  repealed, 
the  Judges  will  go  with  it :  and  this  possibility  would  hang  over  every  Judge  in  all  the 
Courts  of  Virginia,  from  the  Court  of  Appeals  down  to  the  County  Courts.  Besides, 
clauses  may  be  introduced  without  observation,  and  by  dextrous  management  be  re- 
tained till  they  pass  with  the  rest  of  the  law,  and  thus  turn  the  Judges  out  of  their 
office.  From  the  very  nature  of  the  case,  as  soon  as  the  Legislative  and  Judicial  De- 
partments come  into  conflict  with  each  other,  the  power  of  the  Legislature  will  be  put 
into  operation  to  remove  those  who  are  obnoxious  to  their  displeasure  :  and  this  in  the 
face  of  the  vain,  and  (as  it  will  then  become)  the  ridiculous  limitation  contained  in  the 
eighth  resolution.  Let  us  be  consistent  at  least.  Let  us  say  that  a  majority  of  the 
Legislature  may  at-any  tim.e  remove  every  Judge  of  all  the  intermediate  Courts,  and 
not  put  them  upon  scandalous  expedients  to  attain  by  indirection  wha.t  they  may  as 
well  be  allowed  to  attain  openly  and  without  disguise. 

But  the  gentleman  from  Orange  labours  under  a  total  misconception  of  the  terras 
of  the  eighth  resolution.  He  supposes,  that  it  does  not  furnish  the  means  of  getting 
rid  of  useless  Judges,  where  the  Legislature,  honajide,  and  without  any  enmity  against 
the  Judge,  abolishes  the  Court,  and  re-orgcUiizes,  in  order  to  improve  it.  He  supposed 
that  resolution  only  gives  the  Legislature  power  to  remove  a  Judge  from  an  office 
which  continues  ;  and  if  the  Court  is  abolished,  he  then  supposes  that  this  cannot  be 
done.  He  asks,  how  can  a  man  be  removed  from  an  office,  if  the  office  itself  is  de- 
stroyed But  the  clause  in  the  first  resolution,  which  he  proposes  to  strike  out,  pre- 
vents the  abolition  of  the  office,  the  abolition  of  the  Court  notwithstanding.  You  may 
have  abolished  the  Court,  yet  that  clause  says  he  is  still  a  Judge.  He  may  have  lost 
his  jurisdiction,  but  he  is  a  Judge  still,  and  retains  his  Judicial  office.  Can  there  be 
any  better  cause  for  the  amotion  of  a  Judge,  than  that  the  Legislature  has  ascertained, 
that  the  court  to  which  he  belonged  is  of  no  value  ?  that  it  shall  be  abolished,  and  its" 
jjpdiction  exercised  by  some  other  court,  or  shall  cease  to  be  exercised  at  all and 
this  bona  fide.    I  say,  could  there  be  a  better  cause  for  the  amotion  of  a  Judge,  than 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


611 


this?  For  such  a  case,  the  eighth  resolution  furnishes  an  ample  remedy ;  but  it  is 
provided,  under  this  salutar}/  check,  that  the  Legislature  is  inhibited,  under  the  mere 
colour  of  abohshing  the  court,  to  do  so  with  the  unhallowed  purpose  of  depriving  the 
Judge  of  his  office.  If  you  give  the  Legislature  this  power,  they  may  disband  the 
whole  of  the  Judges  at  pleasure. 

But  the  gentleman  tells  us  there  are  dangers  in  the  way.  Does  he  expect,  as  the 
country  goes  on  increasing  in  its  population,  and  the  extent  of  its  settlements,  that 
our  Judicial  establishment  is  to  be  diminished  Can  he  look  forward  to  a  time,  when 
a  less  quantum  of  Judicial  power  is  likely  to  be  needed :  But  admit  it.  Where  is 
the  danger  ;  What  are  the  mischiefs  which  are  to  grow  out  of  this  paragraph  ?  The 
only  conceivable  one  is,  that  in  the  changes  induced  by  a  new  organization  of  the 
courts,  a  Judge  or  two  may  become  supernumerary.  Not  to  insist  on  what  I  said 
concerning  the  constant  progress  of  society,  the  eighth  resolution  provides  a  remedy 
even  in  that  case.  These  supernumeraries,  if  they  become  so  numerous  as  to  prove 
a  burden,  may  be  removed.  But  no  day  is  more  remote  or  improbable.  In  the  mean 
while,  the  preceding  part  of  the  first  resolution  leaves  the  courts  to  the  entire  power 
of  the  Legislature,  as  to  their  organization  and  jurisdiction — these  they  may  re-model 
at  their  pleasure. 

I  ask  the  Committee  to  vreigh  the  opposite  miscliiefs — on  the  one  hand,  leaving  the 
Legislature  in  the  possession  of  power  to  disband  all  the  Judges  the}-  dislike,  and 
attack  and  destroy  the  independence  of  the  Judiciary,  This  to  be  counted  against  the 
possibility,  and  that  a  remote  one,  of  the  existence  of  one  or  more  supernumerary 
Judges.    They  are  as  dust  in  the  balance. 

Mr.  Morris,  with  a  view  to  remedy  the  difiiculty  apprehended  by  Mr.  Barbour, 
although  not  of  opinion  that  such  a  clause  was  absolutely  needed,  but  under  the  per- 
suasion that  it  might  remove  doubt,  and  produce  no  evil,  moved  the  following  pro- 
viso to  be  added  at  the  end  of  the  eighth  resolution  : 

Provided,  hoicever,  That  if  upon  the  m.odification  or  abolition  of  any  court,  any 
Judge  or  Judges  should  not  be  directed  to  perform  other  Judicial  duties,  it  shall  be 
competent  to  the  General  Assembly,  tv.'o-thirds  of  the  whole  number  of  each  House 
concurring  therein,  to  vacate  the  commission  or  commissions  of  such  Judge  or  Judges." 

Mr.  Barbour  thought  the  amendment,  though  it  obviated  what  he  had  urged  in  re- 
lation to  the  eighth  resolution,  did  not  remove  the  difiiculty  as  to  retaining  Judges 
wliose  duties  had  ceased,  unless  they  could  be  removed  hj  a  vote  of  two-thirds  of  both 
Houses.  He  w^ould  not  consent  to  frame  the  organic  law  on  the  hypothesis,  that  the 
Legislature  were  to  do  wilful  and  deliberate  wrong.  He  judged  them  by  his  own 
conscience,  and  could  not  believe  they  ever  would. 

Mr.  Marshall  said,  he  did  not  intend  to  enter  into  the  debate  at  this  time.  Had  the  gen- 
tleman from  Orange  been  content  with  the  amendment,  he  should  have  said  nothing ; 
but  as  he  had  not  seemed  satisfied  with  it,  he  could  not  help  suggesting  to  the  gentle- 
man from  Hanover,  (Mr.  Morris,)  whether  it  was  proper  to  press  the  amendment. 
There  was  not  the  slightest  possible  necessity  for  it  as  an  explanation  of  the  resolu- 
tion: with  great  respect,  said  Zvlr.  M.,  for  the  opinion  of  the  gentleman  from  Orange, 
if  I  can  understand  his  language,  he  both  misquoted  and  misunderstood  the  eighth 
resolution,  when  he  supposed  it  to  require  the  construction  he  puts  upon  it.  He  has 
used  throughout  his  argument  the  word  office  instead  of  Court,  and  it  Vi'as  that  which 
produced  the  confusion  into  which  he  has  fallen,  and  which  alone  leads  to  the  slight- 
est supposable  difiiculty.  He  says  that  the  eighth  resolution  does  not  apply  to  the  case 
provided  against  in  the  clause  he  would  strike  out,  because  it  uses  the  term  office,  and 
he  says  the  Legislature  cannot  remove  a  man  from  an  office,  which  office  does  not 
exist — that  no  abolition  of  the  ofiice  can  be  construed  as  a  removal  of  the  Judge — and 
that  a  Judge  cannot  be  removed  from  an  ofiice  that  he  does  not  hold,  because  the  of- 
fice has  been  abolished. 

Now,  the  language  of  the  clause  in  the  first  resolution,  speaks  of  the  abolition  of  a 
Court,  not  of  an  office :  but  the  abolition  of  a  Court  is  not  the  abolition  of  the  office  of 
the  Judge.  The  office  of  a  Judge  is  his  capacity  to  administer  justice:  not  to  adminis- 
ter it  in  one  Court  only.  The  former  Judges  of  the  General  Court  have  been  ad- 
vanced to  another  Court  since  :  yet  the  Judge  remains,  though  he  was  appointed  a 
Judge  of  the  General  Court.  There  is  no  necessity,  whatever,  for  the  proposition  of 
the  gentleman  from  Hanover.  It  is  impossible  the  resolutions  should  be  misunder- 
stood so  far  as  that  the  application  of  the  eighth  resolution,  to  the  case  provided  for 
by  the  second,  cannot  be  seen — but  if  it  was  possible  so  far  to  misunderstand  it.  the 
language  might  be  slightly  changed.  But  it  is  obvious  from  the  two  taken  together, 
that  change  the  Courts  as  you  pfease,  the  Judge  remains  in  office  and^is  ready  to  re- 
ceive any  duty  which  the  Legislature  may  assign  to  him.  I  suggest  to  the  gentleman 
the  propriety  of  withdrawing  his  proviso. 

Mr.  Barbour  said,  that  the  gentleman  from  Richmond  had,  (not  intentionally  he  was 
very  sure)  done  him  injustice,  when  he  charged  him  with  misquoting.  He  read  from  the 
printed  pamphlet  in  his  hand.    The  argument  he  had  intended  to  urge  was  this ;  tliat 


C12 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


though  the  Court  should  be  abolished  and  the  office  remain,  still  he  questioned  whether 
the  removal  of  a  useless  Judge  was  within  the  scope  of  the  eighth  resolution.  He 
would  submit  another  reason  for  this  opinion.  By  that  resolution  it  was  provided, 
that  the  Judge  was  to  be  served  with  a  copy  of  the  causes  alleged  against  him. 

Now,  supposing  the  Legislature  has  abolished  the  Court  and  wishes  to  remove  one 
of  the  Judges.  What  "  are  the  causes"  to  be  shewn  in  this  case?  Are  they  to  say  to 
the  Judge,  we  want  your  services  no  longer,  and  you  must  come  and  dispute  before 
Us,  whether  your  office  ought  or  ought  not  to  be  continued  ^  To  my  mind  the  eighth 
resolution  imports  the  idea,  not  that  the  Legislature  wish  to  remove  the  Judge,  but  that 
against  A.  or  B.  some  imputation  has  been  brought,  and  that  he  is  to  be  summoned  to 
answer  the  charges. 

Mr.  Marshall  rose  in  reply.  I  still  say  the  gentleman  has  totally  misrepresented 
the  meaning  of  the  resolution.  He  still  says  that  it  speaks  of  charges  alleged  against 
him,  and  asks  if  the  abolition  of  the  office  is  any  charge  against  the  Judge.  No,  it  is 
not.  I  did  not  say  it  was.  But  I  say,  and  I  say  it  with  great  confidence,  that  as  the 
terms  of  the  resolution  are  expressed,  it  does  not  require  that  any  cause  shall  be  alleged 
against  the  Judge :  whatever  may  operate  as  a  cause  for  his  removal  comes  within 
the  resolution:  it  may  be  assigned  as  such  by  the  Legislature,  and  it  does  not  imply 
that  he  has  committed  any  oftence.  We  must  not  confound  the  clause  providing  for 
the  impeachment  of  a  Judge  with  the  clause  providing  for  his  removal  from  office :  for 
crimes  and  offences,  he  is  to  be  impeached,  and  the  impeachment  is  to  be  tried  before 
the  Senate.  But  when  the  Legislature  shall  say  that  he  is  useless,  and  that  there  is 
cause  for  his  removal,  he  may  be  removed.  The  resolution  requires  the  cause  to  be 
assigned  and  recorded.  The  Legislature  may  say,  as  that  cause,  that  the  Judge  is 
useless ;  that  the  number  of  Judges  is  too  great,  and  that  part  of  them  may  be  dis- 
pensed with :  and  then  the  resolution  applies  entirely.  It  may  be  a  question  with  the 
Legislature,  whether  he  has  not  been  rendered  useless  by  themselves  in  the  abolition 
of  his  Court;  but  that  is  a  question  for  them  only,  and  for  nobody  else.  If  they  choose 
to  designate  it  as  the  cause  of  his  removal,  they  can  act  upon  it. 

Mr.  Morris  said,  it  gave  him  at  all  times  great  pleasure  to  comply  with  any  request 
of  the  gentleman  from  Richmond,  and  the  more  now  as  he  had  at  first  been  of  the  same 
opinion  as  that  gentleman ;  but  he  had  offered  the  proviso  with  the  hope  of  satisfying 
his  friend  from  Orange  ;  and  the  gentleman  from  Richmond  had  said,  he  would  be  con- 
tent it  should  be  inserted :  it  was  true,  the  gentleman  from  Orange  was  not  wholly 
satisfied,  yet  owned  that  it  removed  his  objection  to  the  eighth  resolution — he,  there- 
fore, must  still  insist  upon  his  motion. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  he  was  against  both  the  proviso  and  the  amendment  of  the  gen- 
tleman from  Orange,  and  for  a  different  reason  from  any  that  had  been  assigned.  He 
had  yesterday  voted  against  striking  out  the  second  resolution — but  he  wished  to  sub- 
stitute a  proviso,  which  he  would  indicate.  The  great  difficulty  of  giving  the  Legis- 
lature power  to  re-organize  the  Courts,  grew  out  of  the  tenure  of  the  Judges,  and  from 
even  a  seeming  attack  upon  their  independence.  It  was  easy  to  empower  the  Legis- 
lature to  reduce  the  number  of  the  Judges  in  commission,  according  to  a  plan  which 
he  would  submit  when  they  got  into  the  House.  Some  years  since,  Mr.  D.  said,  a 
desire  was  felt  to  reduce  the  number  of  the  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals  from  five 
to  three,  and  others  wished  that  their  salaries  might  be  increased.  And  it  was  pro- 
posed that  on  the  first  vacancy's  occurring  it  should  be  left  unfilled,  and  so  when  the 
second  should  occur;  and  when  their  number  should  be  reduced  to  three,  the  salaries 
of  all  the  five  should  be  divided  among  them.  The  proposal  met  with  minds  enough 
to  carry  it;  but  experience  had  proved  that  it  worked  badly  ;  in  consequence  of  which 
the  number  was  restored  to  five,  but  the  increased  salary  was  continued.  Now,  Mr. 
D.  thought  that  a  plan  of  this  kind  might  be  adopted  to  get  rid  of  supernumerary 
Judges,  should  any  be  occasioned  by  the  re-organization  of  the  Judiciary  system :  let 
them  have  employment  while  they  lived,  and  when  they  died  leave  their  places  un- 
Bupplied. 

The  question  was  now  taken  on  Mr.  Morris's  amendment,  and  negatived :  and  the 
question  recurring  on  that  of  Mr.  Barbour, 

Mr.  Johnson  rose  in  opposition  to  the  amendment.  He  was  opposed  to  striking 
out  the  clause  in  question,  and  equally  to  the  object  which  seemed  to  be  in  view  by 
doing  so.  He  did  not  wish  to  put  it  in  the  power  of  the  Legislature,  at  pleasure,  to 
remove  every  Judge  from  office,  whenever  they  should  persuade  themselves  that  some 
good  effect  was  to  follow  from  it ;  yet  such  would  be  the  certain  effect  of  the  motion 
of  the  gentleman  from  Orange.  He  did  not  know  whether  he  had  correctly  under- 
stood the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania,  who  said  that  the  clause  only  applied  to 
Judges  of  the  Superior  Courts.  Such  was  not  his  interpretation.  Its  language  was 
universal :  "  No  modification  or  abolition  of  any  Court  shall  be  construed,"  &c.  But, 
if  the  Committee  should  agree  to  the  first  resolution  in  its  present  form,  what  would 
be  the  foundation  of  the  Court  of  Appeals  Would  it  be  beyond  the  power  of  the 
Legislature  to  modify  and  even  abolish  that  Court  ?    They  could  not,  to  be  sure,  say 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


613 


there  shall  not  be  any  Court  of  Appeals,  but  they  might  abolish  any  particular  Courts 
of  Appeals,  change  it  entirely,  and  give  the  new  court  power  to  issue  appeals.  Sup- 
pose the  Legislature  should  say,  that  the  Court  of  Appeals  should  be  abolished,  and 
that  the  General  Court  shall  be  a  Court  of  Appeals  in  all  civil,  as  it  now  is  in  all 
criminal  cases.  Does  the  resolution  restrain  them  from  doing  this  ?  It  does  not :  and 
if  it  is  adopted,  there  is  no  protection  whatever  to  the  Court  of  Appeals  as  it  is  now 
organized — none  whatever.  Now,  he  held  that  the  clause,  which  the  gentleman  sought 
to  strike  out,  covered  with  its  mantle  the  Judges  of  that  Court,  as  well  as  of  all  the 
rest.  The  moment  it  was  stricken  out,  they  would  have  all  the  Judges  at  the  mercy 
of  the  Legislature.  Would  any  gentleman  be  willing  so  to  subject  the  Judicial  to  the 
Legislative  branch  of  the  Government?  Did  any  man,  who  valued  the  indepen- 
dence of  the  Judiciary,  as  the  very  best  feature  in  our  free  institutions,  wish  to  put 
every  Judge  in  the  land  entirely  at  the  discretion  of  the  Legislature  ?  Yet  would  not 
that  be  the  practical  effect  of  the  amendment.''  The  gentleman  from  Orange,  he  was 
very  sure,  did  not  desire  such  an  effect.  The  gentleman,  looking  only  to  his  own 
heart,  and  his  own  independent  impartiality  and  exemption  from  the  bias  of  party 
feeling,  could  not  indulge  the  idea,  that  the  Legislature  of  his  State  would  be  go- 
verned by  any  but  the  purest  motives  of  wisdom  and  patriotism.  If  this  were  indeed 
so,  tlien  he  would  agree  at  once  to  put  all  the  destinies  of  the  Commonwealth  unre- 
servedly into  their  hands.  He  asked  for  no  courts — no  Judges.  He  would  commit 
all  the  powers  of  the  Government  at  once  to  the  Legislature.  But  was  that  the  course 
of  human  affairs  ?  Did  the  experience  of  the  world  authorise  such  a  doctrine  ?  Did 
not  the  gentleman  see  how  readily  a  Legislative  body,  influenced  even  by  the  purest 
wishes  lor  the  public  good,  might  be  brought  to  the  conclusion,  that  duty  to  their 
country  required  that  every  Judge  in  the  country  should  surrender  his  commission 
In  the  moment  of  party  excitement,  a  Judge  would  be  considered  as  but  a  small  sa- 
crifice, when  some  favourite  measure  was  to  be  carried.  How  little  would  his  fate- 
or  his  prospects  weigh  against  some  immediate  imaginary  good  to  be  obtained  by  hiff 
removal  ?  Was  the  gentleman  willing  to  put  the  Judges  upon  the  virtue  and  good 
intentions  of  the  Legislature,  for  the  security  of  their  offices Would  he  cast  them 
upon  its  wisdom  as  their  safeguard It  was  an  idle  belief.  They  never  would  be 
insensible  to  the  effect  of  popular  clamour  and  discontent,  nor  to  the  excitement  of 
party  politics  in  high  party  times.  There  was  besides,  a  feeling  engendered  by  the 
mere  conflict  of  opinion  between  an  independent  Judiciary,  who  sought  to  restrain 
their  excess,  and  an  ardent  body  pressing  for  a  favourite  scheme,  which  could  not  but 
expose  the  former  to  danger.  What  was  the  object  of  creating  an  independent  Ju- 
diciary ?  Was  it  merely  to  secure  the  salaries  of  a  few  men  ?  Far  from  it.  That  did 
not  even  enter  into  the  question.  It  was  to  enable  the  poor  and  despised  man  to  come 
on  equal  terras  into  controversy  with  the  rich  and  the  powerful.  It  was  to  enable  the 
unpopular  man  to  appeal  with  confidence  to  the  tribunal  of  his  country,  against  the 
popular  idol  of  the  day.  It  was  to  enable  the  humblest  citizen  in  the  community  to 
stand  firm  and  erect  before  the  Commonwealth  itself.  In  a  political  point  of  view, 
it  was  to  enable  the  Judicial  branch  of  the  Government  to  prescribe  limitations  to 
Legislative  power  itself.  But,  could  it  answer  these  noblest  and  best  of  ends,  if  its 
functionaries,  before  they  pronounced  a  decision,  were  to  look  at  its  effect  upon  their 
own  subsistence,  and  the  comforts  of  all  whom  they  loved  ?  Compel  a  Judge  to  look, 
at  this,  and  he  could  soon  find  ways  and  means  of  justifying  any  decision  which  his 
interest  or  his  safety  might  require.  It  took  but  little  trouble  to  muster  up  law  enough 
to  effect  such  an  end.  The  late  Judge  Pendleton  used  to  say,  that  when  a  cause  had 
been  examined  by  him,  the  first  question  he  asked  himself  was,  which  decision  does 
justice  require.^  And  then  he  set  about  to  find  law  to  sustain  that  decision.  Set  a 
Judge  to  enquire  what  does  policy  demand,  and  he  was  a  driveller  if  he  could  not 
find  law  for  it.  None  ought  to  drive,  or  wish  to  drive  any  Judge  to  consult  such  un- 
worthy motives.  How  then,  would  the  Judge  stand,  supposing  the  clause  to  be  stricken 
out,  as  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Orange  ?  If  an  unconstitutional  law  had  been 
passed  by  a  bare  majority,  he  would  consider  himself  as  safe  against  a  vote  of  two- 
thirds  of  the  House ;  but,  if  the  law  was  known  to  be  very  popular,  he  would  have 
reason  to  fear.  How  then,  was  the  power  of  the  Legislature  to  be  exercised  against 
him 

Mr.  J.  said  he  would  never  give  his  vote  for  the  provision,  which  went  to  remove 
Judges  by  a  vote  of  two-thirds  of  both  branches  of  the  Legislature,  without  any  crime 
having  been  proved  against  them.  If  they  were  to  be  removed  for  bodily  or  for  mental 
inability,  he  had  no  objections ;  but,  he  would  never  consent  to  give  the  Legislature 
a  carte  blanche  to  put  any  Judge  they  please  out  of  office,  if  they  could  muster  a  ma- 
jority of  two-thirds  of  their  number  against  him.  The  Judge  might  further  be  sup- 
posed to  ask  himself,  if  they  fail  to  get  two-thirds,  is  there  no  other  way  in  which 
they  cari  get  at  me  ?  How  do  1  hold  my  office  ?  I  am  not  a  Judge  of  a  Court,  which 
the  Legislature  yesterday  organized,  and  which  they  may  to-morrow  modify,  re- 
organize or  abolish.  If  I  hold  my  office  by  the  continuation  of  the  court  as  at  pre- 
sent organized,  the  Legislature  may  say,  this  man  by  his  decision  has  defeated  one  of 


614 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


our  most  favourite  objects  of  policy.  The  Governor,  I  perceive,  takes  part  with  them. 
He  says  to  them,  you  made  a  most  wise  and  excellent  law  :  I  entirely  approve  of  it, 
and  I  tried  my  best  to  put  it  into  execution ;  but,  that  unjust  and  oppressive  tribunal 
has  refused  to  sanction  it.  Can  I  suppose  that  a  hint  from  head  quarters,  that  the 
court  is  not  wisely  and  judiciously  organized,  will  not  be  sufficient?  Does  any  gen- 
tleman here,  asked  Mr.  J.,  believe  that  the  Judge  would  reason  unwisely  ?  Does  any 
man  believe  that  the  Legislature,  under  such  circumstances,  would  stop  for  one  hour  ? 
No.  They  would  re-organize  the  court,  and  thus  get  rid  of  the  Judge.  I  have  no 
doubt,  said  Mr.  J.  that  among  the  schemes  of  reform,  and  we  shall  have  plenty  of 
them,  the  Judicial  office  will  become  to  be  no  more  respected  by  the  Legislature  than 
the  law  of  their  predecessors.  Will  you  give  them  this  power And  do  you  believe 
that  two  or  three,  or  ten,  or  twenty  Judges  will  stand  in  their  way  ?    Not  in  the  least. 

Mr.  J.  observed,  that  any  Judicial  duty  that  could  be  performed  with  ten  Judges, 
might  be  as  well  performed  by  twenty.  Supernumeraries  in  that  respect,  would  not 
be  serious  impediments.  As  to  the  expense,  that  was  already  incurred  :  they  must 
pay  them,  simply  because  they  had  them.  Besides,  the  objection  on  the  ground  of 
economy  diminished  with  every  life  that  fell.  And  will  you,  asked  he,  encounter  so 
serious  a  danger,  on  the  paltry  consideration  of  the  salaries  of  some  half  dozen  Judges 
during  their  remnant  of  life  ?  Will  gentlemen  look  at  the  plans  of  reform,  and  tell 
me  which  of  them  contemplates  the  least  diminution  in  the  number  of  our  Judges  ? 
All  that  I  have  heard  of,  contemplate  an  increase.  The  objections,  then,  rest  on  the 
basis  of  a  bare  naked  possibility. 

Mr.  Tazewell  now  moved  to  amend  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Barbour,  by  striking  out 
the  words  "  a  Court  of  Appeals,"  and  inserting  in  lieu  thereof  the  words  "  one  Su- 
preme Court."  In  advocating  the  amendment,  Mr.  T,  observed,  that  this  at  first  view 
might  appear  to  be  a  mere  verbal  criticism.  He  should  not  stop  to  enquire  if  it  were 
so  or  not,  but  would  go  on  to  observe,  that  by  so  altering  the  phraseology,  it  would  be 
made  to  conform  in  terms  to  that  used  in  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  and 
then  they  should  have  the  benefit  of  the  settled  interpretation  put  upon  that  phrase, 
which  would  answer  the  gi-eat  argument  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  (Mr.  John- 
son.) Then  they  would  have  the  one  Supreme  Court  of  the  State,  a  Constitutional 
Court,  and  the  Inferior  Courts  Legislative  ones :  and  as  according  to  the  settled  con- 
struction of  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  Congress  had  power  to  re-model 
or  abolish  the  Inferior  Courts  of  the  Union,  so  the  Legislature  of  Virginia  would  have 
power  over  the  Inferior  Courts  of  Virginia.  Then  the  question  as  to  the  operation  of 
the  clause  proposed  by  his  friend  from  Orange  to  be  stricken  out,  would  be  confined 
exclusively  to  courts  of  the  latter  description  ;  and  it  was  a  very  singular  proposition, 
that  while  the  Constitution  gave  authority  to  the  Legislature  to  modify  that  portion 
of  the  Judicial  power,  which  shall  be  vested  in  the  Inferior  Courts,  according  to 
its  discretion,  or  to  abolish  those  courts  absolutely  and  vv'ithout  any  condition,  it  was 
yet  proposed,  that  the  Judges  of  those  courts  after  the  abolition  of  them,  shall  be 
preserved.  He  had  not  understood  one  remark  which  had  been  made  on  the  word 
"  office."  He  took  it  to  be  settled  under  the  words  "that  Judges  may  be  removed 
from  office  ;"  that  the  Legislature  had  power  to  abolish  and  modify  Inferior  Courts. 
What  then  became  of  the  office.?  If  it  remains,  said  Mr.  T.,  of  what  sort  is  it 
Under  the  Constitution,  or  under  the  law.?  If  under  the  Constitution,  then,  vi^hen 
the  Judge  dies  the  office  remains,  and  there  must  be  a  successor  appointed,  and  re- 
mains a  sinecure.  If  under  the  law,  when  you  repeal  the  law  you  repeal  the  office. 
I  do  not  then  understand  how  the  office  remains.  I  always  apprehended,  that  the 
Judge's  office  pertained  to  his  court,  and  could  not  continue  after  it.  There  will  be 
a  strange  anomaly  existing  in  Virginia,  which  exists  no  where  else,  nor  can.  The 
Legislature  has  power  to  create,  modify  and  abolish  an  office,  and  yet  the  incumbent 
of  the  offi-ce  is  to  be  saved,  though  the  office  may  cease.  What  is  the  reason  of  this.? 
The  office  of  a  Clerk  and  a  Marshal  is  held  during  good  behaviour.  Why  must  not 
they  too  retain  their  office,  unless  there  is  something  peculiar  in  the  character  of  a 
Judge  ?  Does  an  independent  Judiciary  require  that  the  Inferior  Courts  should  be 
inde'jjendent  of  the  Legislature  ?  Was  ever  such  a  thing  heard  of  upon  earth  ?  It  is 
true,  there  must  be  an  independent  department,  but  there  is  no  need  of  but  one  such 
department.  The  Inferior  Courts  must  be  subjected  to  the  Legislature.  Preserve 
your  Supreme  Court  independent,  and  you  get  all  you  need.  All  your  provisions  are 
vain.  What  does  it  all  amount  to.?  You  abolish  the  court,  but  do  not  abolish  the 
office.  Your  Judo-e  is  still  preserved  in  posse— not  in  esse—n  Judge  without  jurisdic- 
tion—an  officer  wtthout  a  place— and  why .?— for  what .?  That  he  may  get  his  salary. 
But  where  is  he  to  get  it .?  It  must  be  paid  him  by  the  Legislature.  But,  u  you  are 
to  presume  mala  fides  in  the  Legislature,  the  salary  of  the  Judge  being  under  their 
controul,  they  may  withhold  it  at  pleasure ;  and  how  are  you  to  help  yourselves  ?  It 
will  always  be  so— it  is  in  the  nature  of  the  case,  and  you  cannot  change  or  remedy  it. 

If  the  amendment  shall  obtain,  that  the  Constitution  of  Virginia  will  read  as  the 
Federal  Constitution  does  now :  you  will  have  one  Supreme  Court,  with  its  Judges 
holding  their  offices  during  good  behaviour,  beyond  the  controul  of  the  Legislature, 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


615 


just  as  the  Judges  of  the  Supreme  Court  of  the  United  States,  are  beyond  the  reach 
of  Congressional  power,  while  your  Inferior  Courts,  like  those  of  the  Union,  will  be 
Bubjectlo  Legislative  controul,  and  may  be  modified  or  abolished  at  will. 

This  is  not  a  speculation  :  it  accommodates  the  Constitution  of  Virginia  to  the 
terms  of  the  Constitution  of  the  Union,  which  has  received  a  fixed  interpretation,  and 
concerning  whose  meaning  doubt  is  removed  by  a  long  train  of  recorded  decisions. 
By  accommodating  ours  to  that,  no  difficulty  will  arise  ;  it  will  get  aid  of  the  argu- 
ment of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta — and  when  it  is  disposed  of,  I  am  prepared  to 
vote  for  the  amendment  offered  by  my  friend  from  Orange. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke  said,  that  he  should  vote  for  the  amendment  of  the  gen- 
tleman from  Norfolk,  (Mr.  Tazewell,)  for  two  reasons  :  first,  for  the  sake  of  the  argu- 
ment he  had  given  to  the  Committee,  and  by  which  he  had  satisfactorily  proved  that 
the  Commonwealth  ought  to  have  but  one  Constitutional  Court ;  and  next  tor  the  sake 
of  the  amendment  itseTf  Mr.  C.  said  he  had  prepared  one  of  the  same  tenor,  but 
doubtino-  his  own  judgment,  had  forborne  to  offer  it.  He  had  always  thought  there 
ought  to  be  but  one  Constitutional  Court,  and  that  it  ought  to  have  two  kinds  of  ju- 
risdiction, appellate  and  original.  It  was  now  called  a  Court  of  Appeals,  and  its  ju- 
risdiction of  course  was  appellate  only,  but  if  it  were  denominated  a  Supreme  Court, 
it  might  be  endowed  with  original  jurisdiction  also. 

Mr.  Nicholas  wished  to  explain  the  grounds  of  his  vote.  He  agreed  in  part  with 
the  gentleman  from  Norfolk,  and  should  vote  for  his  amendment,  but  was  not  in  fa- 
vour of  striking  out  the  clause  referred  to  by  the  gentleman  from  Orange. 

He  had  had  a  doubt  whether  tlie  Court  of  Appeals  was  not  on  the  tooting  of  an 
ordinary  Legislative  Court;  and  that  doubt  had  been  confirmed  by  the  late  debate  on 
the  subject  of  the  County  Courts.  Here  Mr.  N.  recapitulated  what  had  passed  in 
respect  to  retaining  the  word  "  the"  before  County  Courts,  and  contended  that  it  was 
equally  necessary  before  the  words  "  Court  of  Appeals,"  should  that  title  be  retained. 
He  was,  however,  in  favour  of  giving  it  the  title  of  a  Supreme  Court;  then,  if  Infe- 
rior Courts  should  be  provided  when  the  court  was  abolished,  the  office  went  with  it. 
He  agreed  perfectly  in  that  opinion.  Here  Mr.  N.  adverted  to  the  well  known  con- 
troversy as  to  the  Judges  of  the  District  Court  retaining  their  oflices.  That  was  a 
dispute  about  interpreting  a  Constitution  already  in  being ;  but  now  a  Constitution 
was  to  be  formed,  and  they  might  put  in  it  such  provisions  as  they  pleased ;  and  so 
they  might  declare  that  the  Judge  should  survive  the  abolition  of  his  court.  He  was 
in  favour  of  such  a  provision.  He  professed  himself  an  ardent  friend  to  the  indepen- 
dence of  the  Judiciary  ;  yet  he  would  have  held  the  Judges  amenable  to  law  and  not 
above  law,  if  the  continuance  of  their  office  be  essential  to  their  independence.  But  - 
if  the  public  good  required  the  abolition  of  their  courts,  gentlemen  asked  if  he  would 
be  for  continuing  the  Judges  in  office,  without  any  employment.?  He  answered  no: 
and  contended  that  that  case  was  provided  for  in  the  eighth  resolution,  by  which  they 
might  be  removed  whenever  the  public  good  required ;  but  as  a  safeguard  against  ca- 
price, two-thirds  of  both  Houses  were  required  to  effect  it. 

jNIr.  Leigh  was  opposed  to  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Tazewell.  The  only  effect  of  it 
would  be,  that  the  court  might  then  receive  original  jurisdiction.  He  perceived  no 
expediency  in  this  :  He  contended  that,  in  order  to  understand  the  report  of  the  Ju- 
dicial Committee,  it  was  necessary  to  take  the  whole  together.  He  compared  the  first 
and  second  resolutions  v/ith  the  eighth,  and  concluded  from  the  whole,  that  the  juris- 
diction of  all  tiie  tribunals  of  the  State  was  left  to  the  law  ;  there  the  term  of  the 
Judge's  oflice  was  fixed — and  there  provision  was  made  against  a  manoeuvre  to  get 
him  out  of  office  by  destroying  and  re-instating  his  court.  The  meaning  of  a  Judge's 
office  was  his  civil  capacity  as  a  Judge  to  receive  new  Judicial  duties.  This  was  to 
remain,  however  the  courts  might  be  re-modelled  or  even  abolished:  then  came  the 
test;  if  the  Legislature  wished  to  get  rid  of  a  Judge,  there  was  a  check  upon  their 
proceedings  by  requiring  two-thirds  of  both  Houses  to  concur. 

Mr.  Leigh  referred  to  a  case  in  the  historv  of  the  courts  of  Virginia,  when  this  prin- 
ciple of  a  Judge  surviving  the  change  of  his  court  was  acted  on.  Before  the  Fede- 
ral Constitution  had  been  adopted,  there  had  been  in  Virginia  a  General  Court  with 
five  Judges,  a  Chancery  Court  with  three  Chancellors,  and  an  Admiralty  Court  with 
three  Judges.  The  latter  was  superseded  by  the  powers  of  the  Federal  Government. 
The  Legislature  left  one  Chancellor ;  and  then  gave  ten  Judges  to  the  General  Court. 
The  effect  of  the  struggle,  was  to  compel  the  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals,  to 
perform  nisi  prius  duty  as  Judges  of  Assize.  He  then  went  into  a  history  of  the 
creation  of  the  District  Courts,  and  the  transfer  of  the  Judges.  He  contended,  that 
in  the  present  case,  if  any  chancery  jurisdiction  was  to  be  abolished,  the  Chancellors 
could  be  transferred  to  the  General  Court;  and  if  it  should  prove  too  numerous 
the  extra  Judges  could  be  gotten  rid  of  by  the  plan  suggested  by  Mr.  Doddridge. 
The  difficulty  would  be  of  short  duration, 

Mr.  Marshall  now  rose  and  addressed  the  Committee  in  nearly  the  following 
terms : 


616 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  has  understood  the  language  of  these  resolutions 
correctly.  No  doubt  was  entertained  in  the  Judicial  Committee,  that  the  whole  sub- 
ject of  the  jurisdiction  of  the  courts  and  the  change  of  their  form  should  be  submitted 
entirely  to  the  Legislature.  There  was  no  question  on  the  subject.  When  I  first 
heard  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk,  I  had  no  objection  to  it  except 
that  this  Court  of  Appeals  had  been  long  known  to  the  Constitution  of  Virginia,  and 
ought  to  be  retained,  unless  there  was  some  utility  in  the  change.  As  to  the  con- 
sideration that  there  had  been  a  regular  and  fixed  construction  of  the  Constitution  of 
the  United  States  for  a  great  length  of  time,  that  was  no  reason  to  change  the  title  of 
Court  of  Appeals,  because  the  Constitution  of  Virginia  had  been  in  existence  for  a 
still  longer  time.  But  though  my  original  objection  to  the  change  had  been  only  that 
it  was  unnecessary,  when  I  heard  the  gentleman's  argument  I  felt  more. 

1  shall  not  enter  on  the  question,  whether  the  construction  of  the  Federal  Consti- 
tution by  the  Congress  of  the  United  States  is  correct,  or  whether  it  will  be  adhered 
to  or  not.  That  question  I  shall  not  touch — it  is  not  before  the  Committee.  We  act 
on  the  presuuiption,  that  that  construction  might  be  adopted,  and  we  have  provided 
against  it.  The  argument  of  the  gentleman  goes  to  prove  not  only  that  there  is  no 
such  thing  as  Judicial  independence,  but  that  there  ought  not  to  be  no  such  thing: 
that  it  is  unwise  and  improvident  to  make  the  tenure  of  the  Judge's  office  to  continue 
during  good  behaviour.  That  is  the  effect  of  his  argument.  His  argument  goes  to 
prove,  not  only  that  there  is  no  such  thing,  but  that  it  is  unwise  that  there  should  be. 
I  have  grown  old  in  the  opinion,  that  there  is  nothing  more  dear  to  Virginia,  or  ought 
to  be  dearer  to  her  statesmen,  and  that  the  best  interests  of  our  country  are  secured 
by  it.  Advert,  Sir,  to  the  duties  of  a  Judge.  He  has  to  pass  between  the  Govern- 
ment and  the  man  whom  that  Government  is  prosecuting :  between  the  most  pow- 
erful individual  in  the  community,  and  the  poorest  and  most  unpopular.  It  is  of  the 
last  importance,  that  in  the  exercise  of  these  duties,  he  should  observe  the  utmost 
fairness.  Need  I  press  the  necessity  of  this  ?  Does  not  every  man  feel  that  his  own 
personal  security  and  the  security  of  his  property  depends  on  that  fairness The  Ju- 
dicial Department  comes  home  in  its  effects  to  every  man's  fireside :  it  passes  on  his 
property,  his  reputation,  his  life,  his  all.  Is  it  not,  to  the  last  degree  important,  that 
he  should  be  rendered  perfectly  and  completely  independent,  with  nothing  to  influ- 
ence or  controul  him  but  God  and  his  conscience  ?  You  do  not  allow  a  man  to  per- 
form the  duties  of  a  juryman  or  a  Judge,  if  he  has  one  dollar  of  interest  in  the  matter 
to  be  decided :  and  will  you  allow  a  Judge  to  give  a  decision  when  his  office  may  de- 
pend upon  it?  wlien  his  decision  may  offend  a  powerful  and  influential  man?  Your 
salaries  do  not  allow  any  of  your  Judges  to  lay  up  for  his  old  age :  the  longer  he  re- 
mains in  office,  the  more  dependant  he  becomes  upon  his  office.  He  wishes  to  re- 
tain it ;  if  he  did  not  wish  to  retain  it,  he  would  not  have  accepted  it.  And  will  you 
make  me  believe  that  if  the  manner  of  his  decision  may  affect  the  tenure  of  that  of- 
fice, the  man  himself  will  not  be  affected  by  that  consideration  ?  But  suppose  he 
is  not  affected  by  it:  if  the  mere  repeal  of  a  law,  and  the  making  some  change  in 
the  organization  of  his  court,  is  to  remove  him,  that  these  circumstances  will  not  re- 
cur perpetually  ?  I  acknowledge  that,  in  my  judgment,  the  whole  good  which  may 
grow  out  of  this  Convention,  be  it  what  it  may,  will  never  compensate  for  the  evil  of 
changing  the  tenure  of  the  Judicial  office. 

The  gentleman  from  Orange  placed  his  argument  upon  this  ground,  that  to  impose 
such  a  restraint  upon  the  Legislature,  was  to  make  an  imputation  upon  the  Legisla- 
ture, which  he  would  not  make.  He  did  not  suppose  it  possible  they  would  act  in 
that  manner,  and  he  would  not  provide  against  it.  For  what  do  you  make  a  Consti- 
tution ?  If  your  confidence  is  complete,  and  no  provision  is  necessary  against  mis- 
doing, and  no  imputation  is  to  be  cast  upon  the  Legislature,  why  are  we  making 
another  Constitution  ?  Consider  how  far  this  argument  extends.  In  the  tenth  reso- 
lution of  the  Legislative  Committee,  you  say  that  no  bill  of  attainder,  or  ex  post  facto 
law,  shall  be  passed.  What  a  calumny  is  here  upon  the  Legislature  of  the  gentle- 
man's native  State  !  Do  you  believe,  that  the  Legislature  will  pass  a  bill  of  attainder, 
or  an  ex  ])ost  facto  law?  Do  you  believe,  that  they  will  pass  a  law  impairing  the 
obligation  of  contracts  ?  If  not,  why  provide  against  it  ?  Does  not  the  principle  of 
the  gentleman  from  Orange  apply  as  much  to  this  case  as  to  the  other  ?  You  declare, 
that  the  Legislature  shall  not  take  private  property  for  the  pubhc  use,  without  just 
compensation.  Do  you  believe,  that  the  Legislature  will  put  forth  their  grasp  upon 
private  property,  without  compensation  ?  Certainly  I  do  not.  There  is  as  little  reason 
to  believe  they  will  do  such  an  act  as  this,  as  there  is  to  believe,  that  a  Legislature 
will  offend  against  a  Judge  who  has  given  a  decision  against  some  favourite  opinion 
and  favourite  measure  of  theirs,  or  against  a  popular  individual  who  has  almost  led 
the  Legislature  by  his  talents  and  influence.  1  am  persuaded  there  is  at  least  as  much 
danger  that  they  will  lay  hold  on  such  an  individual,  as  that  they  will  condemn  a  man 
to  death  for  doing  that  which,  when  he  committed  it,  was  no  crime.  The  gentleman 
says,  it  is  impossible  the  Legislature  should  ever  think  of  doing  such  a  thing.  Why 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


617 


then  expunge  the  prohibition  ?  He  repHes,  the  benefit  to  be  obtained  is  this,  that  it 
is  possible  the  Legislature  may  create  Judges  whom  they  afterwards  discover  to  be 
useless :  they  discern  their  error,  but  if  this  clause  is  retained,  they  cannot  retrace 
tlie  step,  and  abolish  their  own  work.  Is  this  probable  ?  In  the  history  of  this  coun- 
try, Judges  are  known  to  be  charged  with  duties  they  are  scarcely  equal  to.  There 
are  no  surplus  Judges.  The  office  does  not  descend  to  the  family,  and  multiply  with 
it.  AH  the  Judges  are  created  by  a  Legislative  act :  and  they  may  as  well  abolish  a 
court  to  get  rid  of  a  Judge,  as  create  a  court  to  make  a  Judge.  There  can  be  no  just 
fear  that  unnecessary  Judges  will  be  created.  It  is  not  the  tendency  of  our  situation 
and  our  Government.  The  danger  that  they  will  be  left  dependent,  is  more  pro- 
bable :  but  if  it  does  arise,  it  is  provided  against  by  the  eighth  resolution. 

I  see  no  utility  in  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk.  It  will  change 
the  established  appellation  of  the  court,  long  settled  in  our  own  Constitution.  Be 
this,  however,  as  it  may,  nothing  can  be,  in  my  apprehension,  more  mischievous  than 
to  expunge  that  clause  with  the  views  that  gentleman  entertains.  His  design  is  pro- 
fessedly and  avowedly  to  leave  all  the  Judges  but  the  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Ap- 
peals, (and  them  too,  as  I  believe  will  be  the  fact,)  to  the  power  of  the  Legislature. 
There  is  this  difference  :  The  removal  of  a  Judge  is  an  unpleasant  task — it  usually 
occasions  some  reluctance  :  but,  merely  to  take  away  the  foundation  on  which  he 
stands,  and  to  let  him  drop,  is  another  thing:  this  occasions  very  little  compunction, 
and  as  little  to  re-elect  others,  and  leave  him  unprovided  for. 

I  feel  strongly,  tliat  this  Convention  can  do  nothing  that  would  entail  a  more  se- 
rious evil  upon  Virginia,  than  to  destroy  the  tenure  by  which  her  Judges  hold  their 
offices. 

Mr.  Tazewell  rose  in  reply  : 

The  gentleman  firom  Chesterfield,  said  he,  urges  as  an  objection,  that  the  jurisdic- 
tion of  the  Court  of  Appeals  is  merely  appellate,  and  gives  this  as  a  reason  why  he 
will  vote  to  change  the  name  of  the  court.  Has  the  gentleman  adverted  to  the  fourth 
line  of  the  resolution,  wliich  declares,  that  the  jurisdiction  of  these  tribunals  shall 
be  regulated  by  law  ?"  If  the  Legislature  is  to  regulate  the  jurisdiction  of  all  the 
courts,  and  this  among  the  rest,  v,'hat  becomes  of  the  ground  he  has  taken,  that  the- 
present  jurisdiction  of  this  court  is  appellate  only  It  is  called  The  Court  of  Ap- 
peals," and  ex  xi  termini  it  must  be  appellate )  but,  its  jurisdiction  may  be  altered  by 
law  in  any  way  the  Legislature  shall  direct.  I  do  not  know  that  it  is  so  desirable, 
that  its  jurisdiction  shall  be  appellate  only.  The  distinction  between  original  and  ap- 
pellate jurisdiction,  is  not  perfectly  clear.  It  runs  into  apices  juris.  I  know  of  no 
argument  to  show,  that  we  ought  to  exclude  all  jurisdiction,  other  than  appellate.  I 
think  there  are  many  cases,  where  it  ought  to  be  original  also.  I  therefore  apprehend 
there  is  no  force  in  the  objection  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield. 

The  gentleman  from  Richmond  tells  us,  that  he  is  unwilling  to  adopt  the  change 
of  denomination  proposed  by  my  amendment.  First,  because  it  may  cause  the  Con- 
stitution of  Virginia  to  read  totidem  verbis,  as  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States 
does ;  and  the  Constitution  of  V^irginia  is  older  in  its  date  than  the  Federal  Con- 
stitution, and  is  more  certain  in  its  interpretation.  It  will  be  seen  by  a  repetition  of  the 
words,  that  the  terms  of  the  Federal  Constitution  are  not  repeated — they  are  changed  ; 
but,  if  they  were  identically  the  same,  what  interpretation  has  been  put  on  this  Con- 
stitution,  v/hich  should  induce  us  to  prefer  it  ?  What  did  the  Constitution  do  ?'  Ap- 
point Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals No.  Judges  of  other  Courts  were  made 
Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals  until  178S,  when  the  District  Court  s3-stem  was 
adopted.  When  that  system  was  adopted,  the  Legislature  thought  there  must  be  a 
Court  of  Appeals,  and  they  then  erected  a  District  Court  with  that  name,  and  so  it 
has  remained  ever  since.  So  far  the  Constitution  of  Virginia  has  had  no  settled  de- 
cision which  bears  upon  the  subject.  The  Court  of  Appeals  was  composed  of  the 
Judges  of  three  other  Courts,  and  a  subsequent  Legislature  pronounced  it  to  be  a 
Constitutional  Court.  But  no  such  difficulty  has  ever  occurred  respecting  the  Con- 
stitution of  the  United  States.  I  am  told  there  may  be  different  constructions  of 
that  Constitution.  I  care  not  how  many  different  constructions  may  be  put  upon  it 
hereafter.  If  the  Convention  adopt  its  language  now,  it  adopts  it  as  noic  construed : 
and  after  that,  I  do  not  care  if  they  shall  change  the  construction  fifty  times.  I  am 
for  adopting  the  words  as  they  are  noio  understood  :  and  it  was  for  that  reason  that  I 
moved  the  amendment.  I  would  take  the  words  "  a  Supreme  Court,"'  under  the 
construction  held  by  every  Department  of  the  Federal  Government — that  the  Su- 
preme Court"  is  a  Constitutional  Court,  and  its  Judges  beyond  the  reach  of  Congress 
itself.  If  we  adopt  the  term  under  this  construction,  we  adopt  the  construction  itself; 
and  thus  the  Court  of  Appeals  becomes  consecrated  as  much  as  the  Supreme  Court 
of  the  United  States.  And  with  respect  to  the  Inferior  Courts,  change  but  one  word, 
and  your  Constitution  will  be  precisely  the  same,  on  this  subject,  as  the  Constitution 
of  the  United  States.  The  construction  always  was,  that  Congress  may  change  and 
abolish  them  at  pleasure ;  and  tlie  construction  has  been  acquiesced  in  to  tlie  present 

78 


61S 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


time.  By  adopting  tlie  same  words  with  the  Federal  Constitution  as  to  both  the  Su- 
perior and  Inferior  Courts,  all  difficulty  will  be  avoided  for  all  time  to  come.  This 
was  my  sole  reason  for  wishing  to  have  the  amendment  adopted. 

But,  it  seems  that,  because  of  this,  I  am  supposed  to  be  opposed  to  the  indepen- 
dence of  the  Judiciary.  Sir,  if  I  know  myself,  there  is  no  member  of  this  Conven- 
tion more  sincerely  attached  to  that  independence  than  I  am.  But  I  have  no  idea  of 
making  the  Judiciary  independent  of  the  law.  I  want  a  constitutional  tribunal  which 
the  Legislature  cannot  abolish ;  and  you  get  that,  when  you  get  a  Supreme  Court. 
When  it  is  said  that  every  judgment  of  your  Judicial  Department  shall,  if  required, 
be  passed  under  the  revision  of  this  tribunal,  you  have  got  all  that  ought  to  be  desired. 
If  you  go  beyond  this  rule,  where  are  you  to  stop  ?  If  every  officer  of  every  court  is. 
not  to  be  declared  constitutional,  at  what  point  are  you  to  stop  ?  Create  a  forum  which 
shall  be  as  distinct  and  independent  a  department  of  your  Government  as  the  Legis- 
lative or  the  Executive.  You  then  have  your  three  great  departments,  and  that  is 
enough.  The  Inferior  Courts  must  be  subject  to  the  Legislative  controul.  It  must 
be  so.  It  always  has  been  so  in  every  country  in  the  world  but  Virginia.  Then  1 
wish  to  know,  whether  it  is  desirable  that  the  Judges  should  remain  free  from  this 
controul  ?  The  gentleman  is  for  allowing  the  Legislature  to  act  on  the  tribunal  itself; 
but  he  wants  to  secure  the  preservation  of  the  Judge.  What  Judge.?  the  Judge  of 
what  court.?  When  you  say  that  he  retains  the  capacity  to  receive  another  judicial 
office,  it  is  saying  nothing  :  because  he  would  have  that  capacity  just  as  much  if  he 
was  no  Judge  at  all.  It  is  only  to  declare  that  the  Judge  shall  continue  to  receive  his 
salary.  But  for  what.?  for  nothing.  If  this  is  necessary  to  secure  the  independence 
of  the  Judiciary,  why,  in  the  name  of  Heaven,  let  it  be  so.  You  can't  buy  that  in- 
dependence too  dear.  But  you  have  that,  when  you  said  there  shall  be  a  Supreme 
Court.  The  Constitution  of  the  United  States  says  the  same  thing,  and  it  has  worked 
well :  the  independence  of  the  Federal  Judiciary  has  not  been  impaired.  As  to  the 
duty  which  a  Judge  is  called  to  perform,  it  certainly  ought  to  influence  the  Legisla- 
ture. It  always  has.  The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  is  mistaken,  when  he  says, 
that  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  sinks  the  boat  under  the  Judge.  Three 
Judges  became  useless;  but  at  that  precise  period,  the  old  system  of  assize  was  got 
up  in  1780,  and  brought  in,  in  1788 :  and  then  the  Legislature  appointed  the  three 
Judges  of  the  Court  of  Admiralty,  to  be  Judges  of  the  General  Court.  They  Avere 
so  commissioned,  that  they  might  be  made  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals.  .  There 
was  no  obligation  on  the  Legislature  to  elect  these  particular  persons  :  but  they  were 
selected,  because  they  had  been  Judges  :  this  was  the  overruling  motive,  which  pre- 
vailed in  their  election.  I  never  can  agree  to  introduce  into  any  Constitution,  a 
principle,  which  virtually  declares,  that  a  sinecure  shall  be  created,  to  support  a  man, 
without  employment,  because  he  has  been  a  Judge.  I  never  will  or  can  agree  to 
create  a  band  of  judicial  pensioners,  call  them  what  you  will.  He  who  performs  a 
duty,  should  be  paid  for  performing  it;  and  he  should  not  be  paid,  unless  he  does 
perform  it.  I  never  will  consent  to  depart  from  this  rule,  be  the  consequences  what 
they  may. 

But,  how  is  the  independence  of  the  Judiciary  affected,  by  declaring  that  the  Judge, 
whose  court  has  been  abolished,  shall  stijl  retain  his  office  ?  It  is  said,  that  he  "  shall 
perform  any  Judicial  duties,  which  the  Legislature  shall  assign  him."  What  now  be- 
comes of  his  independence  ?  You  may  not  sink  the  boat  from  under  him,  but  you 
may  pile  up  jurisdiction  to  any  extent  you  please,  till  you  sink  the  Judge,  boat  and 
all.  Here  is  a  Judge  who  resides,  say  in  Accomac  :  (one  of  these  Judges  in  posse, 
not  in  esse,)  and  you  require  him  tc  hold  a  court  in  Lee,  or  Monongalia,  two,  three, 
or  four  times  a  year.  Is  not  this  striking  at  his  independence,  as  much  as  if  you  took 
away  his  office  ?  You  say  he  shall  keep  the  office ;  but,  then,  you  may  lay  upon  him 
any  amount  of  duty  you  choose.  You  have  only  to  suppose  mala  fides,  in  your  Le- 
gislature, (and  the  provisions  in  your  resolution  go  to  the  hypothesis  of  mala  fides  and 
profess  to  guard  against  it,)  and  your  Judge  is  just  as  much  at  its  mercy,  as  he  would 
have  been  in  the  other  case.  You  have  only  to  suppose  your  Legislature  wicked,  and 
they  can  destroy  any  Judge  they  please. 

As  to  the  last  clause,  moved  to  be  stricken  out,  by  my  friend  from  Orange,  (Mr. 
Barbour,)  I  would  abandon  my  opinions  respecting  it,  if  I  could  be  satisfied,  that 
when  I  have  got  a  Supreme  Court,  I  have  not  got  an  independent  Judiciary ;  but  I 
know  that  I  have  it,  for  I  have  seen  it  in  the  Federal  Constitution  for  forty  years ;  I 
want  no  more,  and  no  better. 

Mr.  Marshall  rejoined : 

I  trust  the  great  importance  of  this  subject,  will  be  deemed  a  sufficient  apology  for 
my  again  troubling  the  Committee.  Some  observations  have  fallen  from  the  gentle- 
man from  Norfolk,  which  I  feel  it  incumbent  upon  me  to  notice.  The  gentleman  has 
said,  that  it  is  sufficient  for  the  independence  of  the  Judiciary  Department,  that  the 
Judges  of  the  Supreme  Court  be  independent :  and  that  there  is  no  country  on  earth, 
where  the  independence  of  the  Judges  of  the  other  courts  is  secured.    I  will  refer 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


619 


him  to  the  country  with  Vv-hich  I  am  best  acquainted — I  mean  Great  Britain.  What 
is  the  Supreme  Court  of  Great  Britain?  It  is  the  House  of  Lords.  And  are  not  the 
Judges  of  the  Court  of  Common  Pleas  independent?  Do  they  not  hold  their  ofBce 
during  good  behaviour  ?  Tet  these  are  Inferior  Courts.  1  do  not  know  so  well  the 
condition  of  other  countries  in  this  respect;  but,  I  believe  the  independence  of  the 
courts  is  preserved  in  France. 

The  independence  of  all  those  who  try  causes  between  man  and  man,  and  between 
a  man  and  his  Government,  can  be  maintained  only  by  the  tenure  of  their  office.  Is 
not  their  independence  preserved  under  the  present  system?  None  can  doubt  it. 
Such  an  idea  was  never  heard  of  in  Virginia,  as  to  remove  a  Judge  from  office.  You 
may  impose  upon  him  any  duty  you  please.  Tou  ma}-  say,  that  the  Court  of  Appeals 
shall  sit  every  day,  from  the  first  of  January  to  the  last  of  December.  The  Judge  of 
a  County  Court  may  be  called  on  to  perform  his  duty  on  the  bench  for  a  whole  year. 
Yet  he  holds  his  office  during  good  behaviour. 

The  Legislature  can  have  no  motive  to  impose  unreasonable  duties  on  a  Judge — he 
may  be  required  to  do  all  he  can  do,  and  he  can  do  no  more.  If  the  Judges  in  com- 
mission are  incompetent  to  the  duty  which  is  to  be  performed,  the  Legislature  will 
create  more  Judges  :  it  is  within  the  ordinary  province  of  Legislative  action.  Their 
independence  is  not  impaued  by  their  being  required  to  do  all  they  can.  This  is  their 
acknowledged  duty. 

We  have  heard  about  sinecures  and  Judicial  pensioners.  Sir,  the  weight  of  such 
terms  is  well  known  here.  To  avoid  creating  a  sinecm'e,  you  take  away  a  man's  du- 
ties, when  he  wishes  them  to  remain — you  take  away  the  duty  of  one  man,  and  give 
it  to  another :  and  this  is  a  sinecure.  What  is  this  in  substance  but  saying,  that  there  is 
no  such  thing  as  Judicial  independence?  You  may  take  a  Judge's  duties  away,  and 
then  discard  him.  W^hat  is  this  but  saying,  that  there  is,  and  can  be,  and  ought  to  be, 
no  such  thing  as  Judicial  independence  ?  The  gentleman  says,  he  is  a  great  friend 
to  an  independent  Judiciary,  and  his  friendship  extends  to  the  Supreme  Court  only. 
The  whole  circuit  duty  is  now  in  the  Inferior  Courts  :  would  he  be  very  willing  to 
transfer  it  to  the  Court  of  Appeals  ?  It  is  impossible  for  him  to  answer  but  in  the  nega- 
tive. He  would  then  have  the  whole  criminal  jurisdiction  of  the  State,  entrusted  to 
Judges,  removable  from  office  by  the  Legislatm-e  at  its  pleasure.  "What  would  then 
be  the  condition  of  the  court,  should  the  Legislature  prosecute  a  man,  with  an  ear- 
nest wish  to  convict  him  ?  But  more.  The  great  mass  of  controversy  existing  in  the 
Commonwealth,  must  always  be  decided  in  the  Inferior  Courts.  We  had  an  exam- 
ple in  the  Old  General  Court.  What  would  be  the  consequence  of  giving  original 
jurisdiction  to  an  Appellate  Court?  Such  a  mass  of  causes  accumulated  in  that 
court,  that  the  great  grand-son  of  no  man  then  living,  would  have  seen  the  trial  of  the 
last  cause  on  the  docket.  This  will  be  the  inevitable  consequence  :  business  will  ac- 
cumulate to  an  extent,  that  it  will  be  impossible  to  pass  through.  The  Inferior  Courts 
will,  therefore,  try  the  great  mass  of  causes,  and  reserve  an  appeal  on  questions  of 
law.  The  gentleman  would  leave  all  these  Judges  unprotected  by  the  Constitution. 
He  declares  himself  a  friend  to  Judicial  independence,  and  gives  independence  to 
those  only,  who  have  no  criminal  jurisdiction.  I  understand  by  Judicial  indepen- 
dence, the  independence  of  all  the  members  of  the  Judicial  Department,  whatever  be 
their  situation.  He  asks,  are  j'ou  to  make  every  petty  officer  independent?  I  an- 
swer, no  :  but,  is  that  the  question  ?  Are  your  Judges  to  be  likened  to  every  petty- 
officer  ?    W"ould  he  liken  the  Judges  to  them  ? 

Will  the  gentleman  recollect,  that  in  order  to  secure  tlie  adm.inistration  of  justice, 
Judges  of  capacity,  and  of  legal  knowledge  are  indispensable  ?  And  how  is  he  to 
get  them?  How  are  such  men  to  be  drawn  off  from  a  lucrative  practice  ?  Will  any 
gentleman  of  the  profession,  whose  practice  will  secure  him  a  comfortable  indepen- 
dence, leave  that  practice,  and  come  to  take  an  office,  which  may  be  taken  from  him 
the  next  day  ?  You  may  invite  them,  but  they  will  not  come.  You  may  elect  them, 
but  they  will  not  accept  the  appointment.  You  don't  give  salaries  that  will  draw  re- 
spectable men,  unless  by  the  certainty  of  permanence  connected  with  them.  But,  if 
they  may  be  removed  at  pleasure,  will  any  lawyer  of  distinction  come  upon  your 
bench  ?  No,  Sir.  I  have  always  thought,  from  my  earliest  youth  till  now,  that  the 
greatest  scourge  an  angry  Heaven  ever  inflicted  upon  an  ungrateful  and  a  sinning 
people,  was  an  ignoranf,  a  corrupt,  or  a  dependent  Judiciary.  Will  you  draw  down 
this  curse  upon  Virginia  ?  Our  ancestors  thought  so  :  we  thought  so  till  very  lately; 
and  I  trust  the  vote  of  this  day  will  shew  that  we  think  so  still. 

The  question  was  taken  on  the  amendment  of  Mr.  TazeweU,  and  decided  in  the 
negative. — Ayes  29,  Noes  56. 

(Mr.  Madison,  no.) 

The  question  now  recurring  on  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Barbour,  Mr.  Stanard 
moved  to  amend,  by  inserting  the  word  "  Supreme"  before  Court  of  Appeals.  W^hich 
was  agreed  to. 


620 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


The  question  was  then  taken  on  Mr.  Barbour's  amendment,  and  decided  in  the 
negative. — Ayes  36,  Noes  53. 
(Mr.  Madison,  no.) 

So  the  Committee  resolved  to  retain  the  follov^^ing  clause : 

"  No  modification  or  abolition  of  any  court,  sliall  be  construed  to  deprive  any  Judge 
thereof  of  his  office  ;  but  such  Judge  shall  perform  any  Judicial  duties  which  the  Le- 
gislature may  assign  him." 

The  printing  of  the  various  amendments,  which  had  been  agreed  upon  in  Commit- 
tee of  the  Whole,  having  been  ordered,  the  Committee  rose,  and  the  House  immedi- 
ately adjourned. 


SATURDAY,  December  12, 1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Lee  of  the  Episcopal  Church. 

Mr.  Mercer  said  it  was  with  unfeigned  regret,  which  he  was  sure  would  be  shared 
by  the  Convention,  that  he  rose  to  announce  the  resignation  of  his  venerable  friend 
and  colleague,  (Mr.  Monroe,)  as  President  of  this  body.  His  present  indisposition 
rendered  him  unable  to  discharge  the  duties  of  that  situation,  and  he  felt  it  his  duty 
to  his  constituents  to  tender  his  resignation. 

Mr,  M,  presented  to  the  President p-o.  tern.  (Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour,)  the  following  letter : 

Sir — My  indisposition  rendering  it  impossible  for  me  to  perform  my  duties,  either 
_  as  presiding  ofhcer,  or  as  a  member  of  the  Convention,  I  owe  it  to  that  body,  to  my 
constituents,  and  to  the  Commonwealth,  to  resign  my  seat,  to  enable  my  colleagues 
to  devolve  on  some  other  person  the  duties  that  1  am  prevented  from  performing. 

I  avail  myself  of  the  opportunity  to  express  my  grateful  sense  of  the  generous  con- 
fidence of  my  constituents,  evinced  by  their  election  of  me  to  the  important  trust,  and 
of  their  support  of  me  in  the  course  that  my  conscientious  convictions  have  induced 
me  to  take  in  the  execution  of  that  trust,  though  it  differed  in  some  degree  with  the 
sentiments  they  had  entertained. 

For  the  distinction  with  which  I  have  been  honored  by  the  Convention,  by  its  elec- 
tion of  me  to  preside  over  its  deliberations,  I  have  already  offered  my  grateful  ac- 
knowledgments, and  I  beg  again  to  tender  them,  and  to  add,  that  as  a  testimony  of 
approbation  of  my  conduct  in  the  many  important  trusts  I  have  held,  under  the  State 
and  Federal  Governments,  at  home  and  abroad,  it  will  continue  to  be  a  source  of  con- 
solation to  me  to  the  latest  moment  of  my  life. 

In  separating  myself  from  the  Convention,  I  cannot  refrain  from  the  expression  of 
my  ardent  and  anxious  hopes,  that  the  result  of  its  deliberations  may  correspond  with 
the  expectations  so  fondly  cherished  before  its  session  commenced  ;  and  that  a  Consti- 
tution will  be  framed  that  will  secure  the  rights  and  protect  the  interests  of  all,  com- 
mand the  public  approbation,  and  promote  the  happiness  and  prosperity  of  the  State. 

I  beg  you  to  tender  to  the  members  of  the  Convention  individually,  my  most  re- 
spectful salutations,  and  to  be  assured  of  the  high  esteem  with  which  I  am,  your  most 
obedient  servant, 

JAMES  MONROE. 

To  Philip  P.  Barbour,  Esq.  ) 

President  of  the  Convention.  5 

This  letter,  on  motion  of  Mr.  Mercer,  was  laid  upon  the  table. 

Mr.  Tazewell  then  observed  that  the  resignation  of  the  late  President  of  the  Con- 
vention rendered  it  necessary  that  another  should  be  elected;  and  he  made  that 
motion. 

Mr.  P.P.  Barbour  having  relinquished  the  Chair  to  Mr.  Fitzhugh, 
Mr.  Gordon  nominated  Philip  P.  Barbour,  as  a  suitable  person  to  be  appointed  Presi- 
dent of  this  body. 

No  other  candidate  being  nominated,  it  was  determined  to  dispense  with  the  for- 
mality of  a  ballot,  and  the  question  being  put,  the  nomination  of  Mr.  Barbour  was 
unanimously  concurred  in,  and  he  was  appointed  President  of  the  Convention. 

Mr.  Mercer  then  moved  the  following  resolution : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Convention  entertain  a  high  sense  of  the  patriotic  zeal  and 
ability  manifested  by  their  fellow-citizen,  James  Monroe,  in  the  various  public  rela- 
tions in  which  he  has  acted ;  and  sympathise  with  him  in  the  dispensation  which  has 
deprived  them  of  his  services  as  President  of  this  body." 

The  resolution  was  unanimously  agreed  to,  and  so  entered  on  the  Journal. 


DEBATE5    OF   THE  CONTENTION. 


621 


Tlie  House  tlien  went  into  Committee  of  the  Whole.  Mr.  Gordon  in  the  Chair,,  and 
on  motion  of  ^Ir.  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  proceeded  to  consider  the  report  of  the  Com- 
mittee on  the  Bill  of  Rights. 

The  report,  toa-ether  with  the  Bill  of  Rights  itself,  having  been  read,  the  resolu- 
tions were  considered  5cnof/7n. 

The  first  resolution  is  in  the  followinop  words  : 
Re^ohed.  As  the  opinion  of  this  Committee,  that  the  Constitution  of  this  State 
ought  to  be  so  amended  as  to  provide  a  mode  in  which  future  amendments  shall  be 
made  therein." 

3Ir.  Johnson  observing,  that  after  much  reflection,  he  had  come  to  tlie  conclusion 
that  it  was  better  to  leave  the  amending  power  in  the  hands  of  the  creating  power, 
with  a  view  to  test  the  sense  of  the  Committee,  moved  to  strike  out  the  word  ••  Re- 
solved." 

Mr.  Doddridge,  speaking  for  the  county  in  which  he  dwelt,  and  with  tne  sentiments 
of  which  he  was  well  acquainted,  said  that  very  great  disappointment  would  be  ex- 
perienced there,  if  the  new  Constitution  should  contain  no  provision  for  its  being 
amended  as  the  chancfing  and  prosfressive  state  of  society  should  demand.  He  was 
aware  of  the  extreme^  dehcacy  of  Ihe  subject,  but  thought  it  his  duty  to  introduce 
some  provision  of  amendment. 

Mr.  Nicholas  thought  it  was  better  to  let  the  resolution  be  passed  over  for  the  pre- 
sent, until  they  should  see  whether  any  new  Constitution  could  be  agreed  upon. 

Mr.  Powell  agreed  in  this  view,  and  opposed  the  motion  to  strike  out. 

After  some  farther  conversation,  at  the  suggestion  of  Mr.  Mercer,  ^Ir.  Johnson  con- 
sented to  vrlthdraw  his  motion. 

The  second  resolution  was  then  read  as  follows : 
Resolved,  That  the  first  and  second  sections  of  the  present  Constitution  ought  to  be 
stricken  out^  and  that  an  introductory  clause  adapted  to  the  amended  Constitution,  be 
substituted  in  heu  thereof" 

Mr.  Leicrh  suggested  that  the  propriety  of  adopting  this  resolution,  must  depend  on 
the  fact  whether  an  entirely  new  Constitution  was  to  be  submitted,  as  a  whole,  to  the 
people,  or  whether  the  existing  Constitution  was  to  be  submitted  with  amendments. 
In  the  latter  case,  there  could  be  no  need  of  striking  out  the  preamble  3  in  the  for- 
mer, it  would  have  an  odd  and  incongruous  appearance. 

The  preamble  of  the  existing  Constitution,  was  then  read  at  the  Clerk's  table. 

It  was  aoreed  to  pass  by  this  resolution  for  the  present. 

The  thir'cl  resolution  was  then  read  as  follows : 

*'  Resolved.  That  the  twelfth,  twenty-first,  and  twenty-second  sections  of  the  pre- 
sent Constitution  ought  to  be  stricken  out,  as  no  longer  necessary."' 
No  amendment  being  proposed, 
The  fourth  resolution  was  read,  viz  : 

"  Resolved.  Tiiat  the  freedom  of  speech,  and  of  the  press,  ought  to  be  held  sacred, 
and  guaranteed  bv  the  Constitution." 
Xo  amendment  being  offered, 

The  fifth  resolution  was  then  read  in  the  words  following : 

"  Resolved.  That  no  title  of  nobility  shall  be  created  or  granted,  and  no  person 
holding  any  ofiice  of  profit  or  trust  under  the  United  States,  or  under  any  King, 
Prince,  or  foreign  State,  shall  hold  any  office  under  this  State." 

Mr.  Leiffh  expressed  his  concurrence  in  the  general  principle  of  policy  now  laid 
down,  but  could  not  consent  to  its  universahty.  He  had  supposed  that  there  were 
few  persons  more  jealous  of  the  influence  of  the  General  Government  than  he  was ; 
but,  for  this  view  of  the  subject,  the  present  provisions  of  law  went  far  enough.  He 
thought  there  might  be  such  a  tlung  as  an  unreasonable  jealousy  of  tliat  Govern- 
ment and  he  could  not  consent  to  a  clause  whose  extent,  as  it  now  stood,  would  af- 
fect all  justices  of  the  peace  and  militia  ofiicers.  so  as  to  render  them  ineligible  to 
•Congress,  and  might  even  raise  a  question  whether  counsel  temporarily  acting  for 
the  United  States  in  their  professional  capacity,  would  not,  in  like  manner,  be  dis- 
qualified. He  was  in  favor  of  leaving  the  entire  subject  to  the  Legislature.  As 
to  that  clause  of  the  resolution  which  had  respect  to  titles  of  nobility,  any  body  micrht 
have  it  for  him  :  he  felt  perfect  indifference  whether  it  was  out  or  irf. 

3Ir.  Doddridge  moved  to  amend  the  resolution  by  striking  out  the  words  ^-  United 
States  or." 

Mr.  Taylor,  after  some  commendatory  remarks  on  the  proviso  contained  in  the  Act 
«f  Assembly  on  this  subject,  moved  that  it  be  inserted  by  way  of  amendment.  It  is 
in  the  words  following  : 

Provided.  That  nothing  herein  contained  shall  be  so  construed,  as  to  prevent  mem- 
bers of  Congress  from  sitting  as  County  Court  magistrates,  or  from  holding  ofiices  in 
the  mihtia,  or  so  as  to  exclude  any  person  receiving  a  pension  from  the  United  States, 
in  consequence  of  any  wound  received  in  war,  from  any  office  under  this  Common- 
wealth, on  account  of  such  pension  ;  or,  so  as  to  create  any  exclusion  whatsoever,  of 


622 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


militia  officers  or  soldiers,  on  account  of  the  recompense  they  may  receive  from  the 
United  States,  when  called  out  into  actual  duty." 

Mr.  Powell,  concurring  in  the  views  of  Mr.  Leigh,  moved  to  amend  the  resolution 
by  striking  out  the  word  "  Resolved"  (in  effect  to  destroy  it.) 

The  Chair  decided  that  motions  to  improve  took  precedence  of  a  motion  to  destroy, 
Mr.  Mercer  suggested,  that  few  if  any  of  the  Constitutions  adopted  by  other  States 
of  the  Union  contained  any  reference  to  the  United  States'  Government  at  all ;  but 
were  so  framed  as  to  remain  entire  and  unaffected  if  that  Government  were  to  cease 
to  exist.  He  was  as  little  a  friend  to  the  dissolution  of  the  Union,  and  looked  to  such 
an  event  with  as  unfeigned  and  deep-felt  a  horror  as  any  other  man ;  but,  he  never- 
theless approved  of  such  a  form  for  the  State  Constitutions.  One  great  end  to  be  at- 
tained by  it,  was,  to  enable  a  State  to  sustain  itself  as  a  distinct  and  perfect  Govern- 
ment, even  amidst  all  the  anarchy  produced  by  so  calamitous  an  event,  as  a  forcible 
dissolution  of  the  Federal  Union.  The  definition  of  the  term  "office"  had  been  a 
subject  of  much  discussion  in  the  Legislature.  It  was  not  easy  legally  to  distinguish 
an  office"  from  a  "  trust,"  as  relating  to  this  subject.  It  was  at  one  time  voted  that 
a  situation  in  the  Board  of  Public  VVorks  was  not  an  office,  and  members  of  that 
Board  were  allowed  to  serve  and  did  serve  in  Congress.  The  decision  was  after- 
wards otherwise.  So  of  prosecutor  for  the  Commonwealth.  The  gentleman  from 
Brooke,  (Mr.  Doddridge,)  who  had  once  held  that  situation  while  a  member  of  the 
Senate  of  this  State,  had  contended  that  it  was  an  office,  and  wished  to  make  it  a 
ground  of  resignation. 

After  some  conversation  as  to  the  point  of  precedence  between  the  several  motions, 
Mr.  Leigh  opposed  the  motion  of  his  colleague  (Mr.  Taylor,)  contending  that  the 
resolution  left  alone,  would  not  go  as  far  as  the  resolution  with  the  proviso  inserted. 
Tiie  resolution  spoke  of  "  offices''  only;  the  statute,  of  jjlaces"  as  well  as  offices: 
and  the  latter  excluded  a  man  who  received  any  "  emolument"  from  the  General 
Government,  whether  he  held  an  office  under  it  or  not.  But  if  the  Constitution  once 
fixed  a  disqualification,  the  law  could  neither  increase  nor  diminish  it.  He  contended 
that  a  citizen  of  Virginia  might  receive  emolument  from  the  United  States'  Govern- 
ment, and  yet  be  as  perfectly  independent  of  that  Government  as  could  be  imagined 
or  desired.  He  referred,  for  illustration,  to  temporary  mail-contractors  :  the  profit 
they  receive,  purged  them  from  the  charge  of  dependence:  but  those  who  were  per- 
manently employed  as  mail-contractors,  stood  in  a  different  relation.  It  would  not, 
he  believed,  exclude  counsel  acting  on  behalf  of  the  United  States  ^ro  hacvice. 

Mr.  Taylor  did  not  entertain  the  same  opinion  with  his  colleague,  (Mr.  Leigh).  It 
was  with  great  diffidence  that  he  ventured  to  differ  from  him  at  any  time,  but  the  best 
opinion  he  had  been  able  to  form  was,  that  if  the  resolution,  with  the  proviso  he  pro- 
posed to  annex  to  it,  should  become  a  part  of  the  Constitution,  the  Legislature  would 
not  be  inhibited  from  extending  the  disqualification  beyond,  though  it  could  not  re- 
trench it  within  the  limit  set  by  that  instrument  For  the  same  reason  that  the  Le- 
gislature had  a  right  to  create  the  present  disqualification,  it  might  extend  it,  just  as 
if  there  were  no  Constitutional  provision  upon  the  subject.  They  could  not  confer 
the  capacity  of  holding  office,  but  they  were  not  restrained  from  creating  an  incapa- 
city beyond  what  the  Constitution  declares.  He  had  wished  to  see  the  proviso  made 
a  part  of  the  Constitution,  because  he  viewed  it  as  important  to  the  perpetuation  of 
the  Federal  Government,  that  offices  should  not  be  permitted  to  be  held  under  it  and 
the  State  Governments  at  the  same  time.  None  could  be  more  sincerely  a  friend  to 
that  Government  than  he  was,  so  long  as  it  remained  within  its  own  legitimate 
sphere  and  sought  only  the  ends  for  which  it  was  estabhshed  :  and  believing  as  he 
did,  that  all  the^rich  blessings  which  had  been  hoped  for,  would  be  realized  from  its 
operation,  he  was  desirous,  as  its  best  safeguard,  to  prevent  its  interference  beyond 
its  own  appropriate  limits.  As  the  Legislature  had  thought,  and  the  people  of  Vir- 
ginia, he  believed,  continued  to  think,  that  offices  under  both  Governments  should  not 
be  in  the  same  hands,  and,  it  was  probable,  that  the  Legislature  would  continue  the 
same  incapacity  that  now  existed,  he  should  vote  for  the  insertion  of  the  proviso  and 
its  permanent  incorporation  in  the  Constitution.  He  thought  that  offices  under  the 
two  Governments,  v/ere  sufficiently  distinct— and  as  long  as  they  could  not  be  held 
by  the  same  ])erson,  he  apprehended  no  danger  that  the  General  Government  would 
accumulate  more  power  than  was  consistent  with  a  preservation  of  the  sovereignty 
of  the  States.  He  hoped  both  would  exist  happily  together  through  all  time.  _  At  all 
events,  from  the  temper  which,  at  present,  seemed  to  actuate  both  the  Legislature 
and  the  people  of  the  State,  he  was  warranted  to  expect  that  such  might  long  be  the 
case.  Yet  it  was  impossible  for  human  wisdom  to  foresee  what  changes  of  opinion 
might  take  place :  and  the  danger  to  both  Governments  would  certainly  be  great, 
should  that  spirit  expire.  It  was  with  the  utmost  good  will  toward  the  Federal  Gov- 
ernment, that  he  offered  the  amendment,  seeking  to  strengthen,  not  to  impair  it,  to 
preserve,  not  to  destroy. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


623 


Mr.  Doddridge  next  addressed  the  Committee  :  ... 

1  will  briefly'^asslcrn  to  the  Committee,  my  reasons  for  opposing  the  proviso,  and  in 
favour  of  mv  amendment.  In  my  opinion,  the  safest  course  in  all  legislation,  is,  to 
take  care  to  "have  the  text  of  a  resolution  or  section,. so  framed,  as  to  admit  of  no 
doubt  in  its  meaning,  nor  ambiguity  of  construction,  so  as  to  render  the  savings,  usu- 
ally found  in  a  provTso,  unnecessary.  This  course,  commonly  avoids  the  doubts  and 
diaiculties  of  construction,  resulting  from  comparing  the  text  with  the  proviso,  and 
expounding  them  together.  If  tiie  proviso  should  be  rejected,  and  my  amendment 
prevail,  the  resuh  wUl  be,  that  it  will,  as  heretofore,  be  left  to  every  future  Assembly 
to  determine,  wdiether,  and  how  far,  it  is  necessary  to  disquahfy  persons  Jiolding  of- 
fice under  the  United  States,  from  holding  an  office  under  this  State.  And  this  is  a 
power,  which  may  be  safely  left  with  Assemblies  to  exercise  or  not,  as  they  may  think 
politic'  under  existing  and  changing  circumstances. 

The  opinion  I  entertain  on  this  head,  is  that  which  I  have  endeavoured  to  urge 
from  the  time  this  Convention  met,  and  will  continue  to  urge,  until  its  labours  shall 
terminate.  That  opinion  is  this,  that  the  exercise  of  no  power  should  be  inhibited 
to  future  Legislatures,  except  such  as  it  would  be  impohtic  and  immoral  to  exercise, 
at  any  future  time,  and  under  any  possible  circumstances.  Such,  for  instance,  as  the 
establishment  of  a  particular  rehgious  sect— passing  an  exjjost  facto  law,  or  law  im- 
pairing the  obligation  of  contracts.  These  powers  ought  never  to  be  exercised. 
Their  "exercise  w^ould  be  immoral  and  impolitic,  at  any  time,  and  under  any  possible 
circumstances.  I  would,  therefore,  inhibit  their  exercise  forever.  Other  powers,  and 
among  them,  the  disqualification  in  question,  are  not  of  that  character.  Public  secu- 
rhy  inay  require,  and  sound  morahty  admit,  their  exercise  at  one  time,  and  not  at 
another;  and  these  times  and  circumstances,  may  safely  be  left  w-ith  the  Legis- 
lature, as  they  now  are. 

The  report  will  then  shew,  that  the  proviso  was  rejected,  and  the  amendment 
adopted. 

Mr.  Summers  acknowledged  that  a  due  degree  of  jealousy  as  to  the  encroachments 
of  the  General  Government  was  salutary  and  proper,  but  thought  it  might  be  carried 
to  very  inconvenient  lengths,  and  would  then  produce  mischievous  consequences.  He 
could  not  agree  with  the'^gentleman  from  Chesterfield  as  to  the  fact,  that  the  present 
statutory  provision  w^as  approved  by  the  people — it  was  certainly  not  the  case  in  his 
part  of  the  State.  It  carried  that  unreasonable  jealousy  into  all  the  relations  of  the 
citizens  to  the  General  Government.  A  contract  to  carry,  or  to  distribute  the  mail,, 
deprived  a  man  of  all  right  to  office  under  the  State,  from  whence  great  inconve- 
nience was  experienced  In  the  West.  The  most  respectable  and  trust-worthy  men 
in  every  county  were  justices  of  the  peace — all  these  men  were  excluded  fromhaving- 
any  thing  to  do  in  the  transportation  of  the  mails,  which  consequently  fell  into  hands 
much  less  worthy  of  trust,  and  thus  the  interests  of  the  Post  Office  Department,  so- 
vitally  important  to  the  whole  community,  were  put  at  hazard.  He  was  for  leaving 
the  matter  to  Legislative  discretion,  and  they  v/ere  much  more  likely  to  err  on  the 
side  of  extreme  caution  than  the  opposite. 

Mr.  Coalter  was  in  favour  of  the  amendment  in  order  that  the  subject  might  be 
kept  before  the  Committee.  No  man  could  tell  how  far  the  Federal  Government,  by 
a  construction  of  the  Constitution,  or  by  amendments  to  it,  might  come  to  operate  on 
the  local  concerns  of  the  States.  Should  the  power  of  carrying  on  Internal  Im- 
provements within  the  States  be  given  by  an  amendment  of  the  Federal  Constitution 
to  that  Government,  there  would,  he  foresaw,  be  a  need  of  such  a  clause  as  was  now 
proposed  to  be  inserted.  This  would  not  impede  nor  hasten  the  adoption  of  such, 
amendment.  He  did  not  know,  for  his  part,  how  far  the  Genera]  Government  might 
be  disposed  to  extend  its  hands  into  their  houses,  and  their  bed-chambers,  and  their 
kneading-troughs,  and  every  where  else.  A  repeal  of  the  existing  law  would  go  far 
to  pave  a  way  for  them.  He  was  not  one  of  those  who  believed  that  all  wisdom  and 
all  prudence  resided  in  any  Legislative  body  in  the  country,  and  he  thought  that  some 
judicious  plan  should  be  interposed  to  guard  against  breakers  ahead. 

Mr.  Stanard  said,  that  a  few  observations  would  suffice  to  convince  the  Committee 
that  the  present  proposal  was  an  illustration  of  the  principle,  that  extreme  jealousy 
was  often  blind,  and  like  ••'  vaulting  ambition,"  sometimes  "  o'erleaped  itself  and  fell 
on  t'other  side."  He  referred  to  that  clause  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  which  relates  to 
this  subject,  and  which  he  said  had  obviously  been  the  result  of  extreme  jealousy^ 
lest  the  interests  of  the  State  and  Federal  Governments  should  be  improperly  mingled; 
in  which  case  those  of  the  stronger  Government  would  always  be  sure  to  predominate. 
He  did  not  find  fault  with  the  sentiment,  but  disapproved  of  the  shape  which  it  now 
proposed  to  assume,  because  the  measure  proposed,  would  have  the  certain  tendency 
to  produce  the  very  evil  sought  to  be  avoided.  There  was  no  proposition  which  he 
thought  would  more  readily  command  the  assent  of  reflecting  minds  than  this,  that 
as  far  as  practicable,  it  was  desirable  that  the  functions  of  tlie  General  Government 
should  be  exercised  through  organs  appointed  by,  and  pertaining  to,  the  State  Gov- 


624 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


eminent.  This  was  the  most  effectual  safeguard  against  the  absorbing  influence  of 
the  General  Government:  it  would  cause  that  power  to  look  to  the  Governments  of 
the  States  for  its  own  wholesome  and  efficient  operation,  and  prevent  the  vast  mass 
of  patronage  which  must  otherwise  grow  out  of  the  appointment  of  all  the  hosts  of 
functionaries  that  must  be  spread  over  the  whole  country.  He  here  referred  to  the 
criminal  jurisdiction  of  the  Federal  Courts  and  the  obligation  upon  the  Federal  Gov- 
ernment, to  seek  out,  apprehend,  try,  convict  and  punish  offenders.  He  then  went 
on  to  shew  that  this  would  be  in  a  great  degree  impracticable  without  the  aid  of  jus- 
tices of  tlie  peace  acting  under  State  authority.  Unless  they  were  allowed  to  issue 
their  warrants  for  the  apprehension  of  persons  accused,  crimes  against  the  Union 
miglit  be  committed  with  impunity.  But  should  the  extreme  rigour  of  the  proposed 
proviso  be  introduced  into  the  Constitution,  the  moment  a  justice  did  this,  he  lost  his 
office,  and  his  office  being  forfeited,  the  validity  of  his  warrant  was  destroyed.  The 
only  remedy  then  would  be  to  call  in  a  host  of  United  States'  justices  for  the  purpose 
of  issuing  initiatory  process  and  carrying  the  laws  into  effect.  Mr.  S.  adverted  to  the 
mistaken  impression  which  had  for  a  short  time  prevailed  in  the  Legislature,  where 
it  was  at  first  strenuously  insisted  on  as  necessary  to  withhold  this  action  on  the  part 
of  State  functionaries,  by  way  of  guarding  against  Federal  influence  and  interference, 
but  the  delusion  had  speedily  been  dissipated.  The  question,  whether  under  the  ex- 
isting law,  a  magistrate  does  not  forfeit  his  office  by  so  far  executing  a  trust  under  the 
United  States"  Government,  as  to  issue  process  for  that  Government,  had  not  yet  been 
tried;  should  it  be  decided  in  the  affirmative,  the  greatest  degree  of  private  distress 
must  ensue,  as  the  title  of  much  real  estate  depended  on  the  validity  of  the  act  of  a 
justice  in  taking  the  privy  examination  of  a.  feme  covert. 

He  had  known  a  case  of  utter  ruin  produced  by  a  justice  having  inadvertently 
taken  such  an  examination  after  receiving  the  appointment  of  a  petty  Post  Office  not 
worth  six  dollars  a  year.  The  amendment  would  destroy  the  existing  facilities  of 
giving  special  bail  in  the  counties,  without  coming  all  the  way  to  Richmond.  It 
would  prevent  the  use  of  any  of  the  jails  of  the  States  for  United  States'  criminals, 
and  thus  oblige  the  General  Government  to  expend  large  sums  of  money  in  the  erec- 
tion of  prisons,  and  in  providing  all  the  necessary  officers  to  attend  them.  If  a  State 
jailor  should  take  a  fee,  it  would  be  emolument"  under  the  General  Government: 
so  he  must  guard  the  Federal  prisoners  for  nothing  or  not  guard  them  at  all.  It  would 
prevent  the  summoning  of  Federal  juries  ;  for,  every  juryman,  v»'ho  should  receive  a 
fee  from  the  United  States  would  be  incapable  of  any  office  under  the  State.  He 
could  go  on  till  night  in  tracing  out  such  consequences.  He  hoped  the  amendment 
would  not  prevail :  ail  that  was  necessary,  was  to  exclude  from  State  employment  all 
who  should  hold  offices  of  emolument  under  the  United  States'  Government. 

Mr.  Taylor  said,  he  was  far  from  supposing  that  the  amendment  would  make  the 
provisions  of  the  Constitution  exactly  what  they  ought  to  be,  or  the  best  that  possibly 
could  be ;  but  he  wished  the  subject  to  be  retained  before  the  Committee,  subject  to 
the  suggestions  of  gentlemen  who  would  improve  it.  In  replj^  to  Mr.  Stanard,  he 
thought  it  a  very  curious  thing,  seeing  the  provisions  of  the  proviso  had  been  passed 
as  far  back  as  1788,  that  none  of  the  many  formidable  consequences  enumerated  by 
the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania  had  as  yet  grown  out  of  it.  It  was  now  the  law 
of  the  land,  as  much  as  if  it  were  in  the  Constitution — and  yet  none  of  these  things  had 
happened.  The  justices  issued  their  warrants,  the  jailors  took  their  fees,  the  juries 
performed  their  dut)^,  and  all  tilings  went  on  very  smoothly.  As  to  justices  profess- 
ing to  act  after  their  office  v/as  vacated  by  law,  no  law  nor  Constitution  either  could 
provide  against  the  consequences.  But  he  could  not  agree  that  the  issuing  of  a  jus- 
tice's warrant  was  exercising  any  trust  under  Ihe  United  States.  A  justice  had  a 
right  under 'the  common  law  to  apprehend  persons  charged  with  crime,  and  transmit 
them  to  the  place  where  they  could  be  tried.  He  was  acting  under  the  Common- 
wealth and  not  under  the  Federal  Government.  Such  was  the  common  sense 
construction  of  the  law — and  why  not  of  the  same  words,  if  in  the  Constitution.'^ 
But  to  prevent  all  doubt,  the  proviso  could  be  modified. 

The  question  being  taken  on  Mr.  Taylor's  amendment,  it  was  rejected — Ayes  16. 

The  question  was  then  put  on  Mr.  Doddridge's  amendment,  and  decided  in  the  af- 
firmative— Ayes  41,  Noes  39. 

So  the  Committee  agreed  to  strike  out  the  words  Uriited  States  or,''  confining  the 
prohibition  to  offices  under  foreign  Governments. 

The  sixth  resolution,  being  literally  the  same  as  the  ninth  resolution  of  the  Legis- 
lative Committee,  and  which  has  been  adopted  (relating  to  the  freedom  of  religion) 
was  stricken  out. 

The  Committee  then  again  took  up  the  resolutions  of  the  Executive  Committee. 
Mr.  Claiborne  moved  to  strike  out  the  second  resolution  and  insert  in  lieu  thereof 
the  following : 

<'  Resolved,  That  there  shall  be  a  Privy  Council  or  Council  of  State,  consisting  of 
four  members,  to  be  chosen  by  joint  vote  of  both  Houses  of  Assembly ,  to  assist  in  the 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


625 


admmistration  of  Government ;  one  of  whom  shall  be  chosen  from  the  «)mitrT  West 
of  the  Alleghany  Momitains;  one  from  the  Talley  between  the  Alleghany  and  Blue 
Ridge  [Mountains  :  one  from  the  country  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge  and  above  the  head  of 
Tide- water  :  a:.  ■  !  ^  head  of  Tide- water  and  the  At- 
lantic. They  =  .  body  a  President,  who.  in  case 
of  the  death.'  :  ^rovemor  from  the  Government, 
shall  act  as  L  Tjaxee  mem£>ers  shall  be  sufficient  to  act.  and 
their  advice  ai-  „  -  entered  of  record,  and  signed  by  the  members 
present,  to  any  :  t  _r:r  :  raay  enter  his  dissent,  and  to  be  laid  before 
the  General  Assembly,  v  them.  They  may  appoint  their  own  Clerk; 
who  shall  hare  a  salary  r.:  1.  11  take  an  oatK  of  secrecy  in  such  mat- 
ters as  he  5.1  -  Tr  ;  ■  .  :  :  r :  J.  A  stun  of  money  shall  be  appro- 
priated by  la~  i:.  a  a:  .  :ara  ai^i  aa!.  _  ~  naerabers  in  -^-^rti on  to  their  ^ten- 
dance and  tliey  shall  be  irca,  ,  :  _  -  —.ce  of  sitting  in 
either  House  of'Asserably.  T-ir  :  :  -  .lest  number  of 
votes  shall  go  out  at  the  er.a  ::  :l::ee  vear-,  a:.  -  .r^e  next-,  and 
the  remaining  two.  a:  :..r  t:.1  :l.ree years  thr  _  r  the  same 
period  of  three  years.  Tl-rse  aiaajies.  as  "vTrl.  .  -    .  aeath  or  in- 
capacity, shall  be  nlied  by  nevr  elv  i.s  samenianiier  and  under  the  same  re- 
strictions-" 

IMr.  Fitzhugh  cafled  for  a  divisljn  of  tl:^  .  and  it  was  divided  accOTdingly. 

Whereur>on.  the  question  being  put  on  st:  :t  was  decided  in  the  negative — 

Ayes  34'.  >'oes  4S. 

On  motion  of  Air.  Fitzhugh,  the  following  supplementary  amendments  to  the  Ex- 
ecutive Report,  vrere  agreed  to  ; 

First.  Tna:  f  :1.^  G:Ter~  tr  s  oSce.  shall  conmience  on  the  first  day  cji 

January,  suce^  _  Ir  ;  v  :  :r  ::.  s  ach  other  day.  as  the  Legislatare  may  from 
time  to  ti:..^        _           -  ~       l.e  Lieutenant-Governor  is  to  be  elected  in 

the  same  .1  for  the  same  term,  with  the  Governor: 

Third,  T..    Governor,  shall  be  chosen  from  such  per- 

sons only,  as  axe  nauve  ciaizens  of  ilae  Uidted  States,  shall  have  attained  the  age  of 
thirty  years,  and  have  been  citizens  of  the  State,  during  the  five  years  immediate^ 
preceding- tlae  elr:a::-.a    Frarh,  Tlaat  -  emor  and  Lieutenant- Go vemor, 

shall  rec  el  Tr  ::r  ...ri:  ^er-riies  a  :  :a::ar::  r  determined  bylaw,  and  to  be 

neither  increased  :a::    .    :     It  _  zji  which  they  shall  have  been 

elected,  and  they  si.  1  removed  from  office,  for  treason, 

bribery,  or  other  crla  .  a?  ^^rf  '^.  That  it  shall  be  the  duty 

of  the  Governor  to  execute  cr  ca.a5e  laws  of  the  Common- 

we^th — to  communicate  to  the  Lesaslav  -        the  condition  of  the 

State,  and  to  recommend  to  their  consider-  >  deem  expe- 

dient.   He  shall  also  be  Commander-in-:l:: r:  :;es  of  the 

State — shxiU  have  power  to  crr.Tene  tla-^  Ler-^l  "  ^   .  the  rater- 

ests  of  the  State  may  recv.      ;  — -    -  :  rs  occuziizig  during  tne  recess  of  the 

Legislature,  in  oSees.  tr.e  :a  is  vested  in  the  Legislative  body ; 

and  to  c:    '    ■  -  -    -  -  :^  L^i  slature  may  designate, 

all  neafo'  a  .  _    "  res." 

IMr.  AIr  .  r:  .    _       _  re;.la.:;n  ;   ...   r  .Zried  by  him,  in  the  fol- 

lowing words : 

Resolred.  That  all  taxes  on  lands,  slaves  and  horses,  shall  be  founded  on  a  feir  as- 
sessment of  their  value  ;  that  no  one  of  these  subjects  shall  be  taxed  separately  from 
the  other  two,  and  that  when  taxed,  the  same  rate  shall  be  charged  and  levied 
upon  all.  " 

Tn  a  brief  explanation  of  this  amendment,  Mr.  ^Mercer  stated  his  estimate  of  the 
present  value  of  lands  in  the  Commonwealth  to  be  ninety  millions  of  dollars :  slaves 
sixty-seven  and  a  half  milhons  :  and  horses  thirteen  and  a  half  miUions,  The  sup- 
posed disparitv  of  taxation  between  lands  and  slaves  did  not  exists 

ISIr.  Fitzhugh  stated  his  intention  to  ofier  the  following  as  a  substitute  : 
"  Rtsdrtd.  'Thsit  the  power  of  the  Legislature  to  impose  taxes,  ought  to  be  so 
limited  as  to  prohibit  the  imjjosition  on  properly,  either  real  or  personal,  of  any  other 
than  an  ad  valorem  tax  :  and  that,  in  apportioning  this  tax,  either  for  State  or  county 
purposes,  the  lands,  the  slaves,  the  horses,  and  aU  the  other  visible  property  of  each 
individual  in  the  community,  (except  household  furniture,  wearing  apparel,  and  such 
other  articles  of  propertv  as  may  be  exempted  by  law.)  ought  to  be  valued  and  taxed 
in  proportion  to  their  value :  Prodded,  hoiceter,  That  no  individual,  whose  taxable 
property  d<3es  not  exceed  in  value  dollars,  shall  be  subject  to  any  property  tax 

whatever :  ,ind  provided,  moreoter,  That  the  Legislatare  may  impose  on  all  profes- 
^ons  and  >xcupations  usoally  resorted  to  for  support  or  profit,  such  tax  as  may  be 
deemed  reasonable." 

79 


C26 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  F.  said,  his  object  was  to  tax  the  entire  capital  of  the  community ;  that  of  Mr. 
M.  to  tax  only  lands,  slaves  and  horses.  His  plan  had  been  tried  in  Maryland,  and 
succeeded  to  entire  satisfaction. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  the  gentleman  had  misapprehended  his  amendment — it  did  not 
confine  taxation  at  all,  but  proposed  a  certain  ratio  between  these  three  as  present 
subjects  for  it;  being  designed  as  a  guaranty  against  the  disproportionate  taxation  of 
slaves. 

After  a  few  further  remarks  in  explanation  of  his  object, 
Mr.  Mercer  moved  that  the  Committee  rise.    It  rose  accordingly. 
In  the  House,  Mr.  Powell  moved  to  meet  on  Monday,  at  10  o'clock,  but  it  was  ne- 
gatived— Ayes  39,  Noes  44. 
The  House  then  adjourned. 


MONDAY,  December  14,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Hoerner  of  tlie  Roman  Catholic  Church. 

The  House  immediately  went  into  Committee  of  the  Whole,  Mr.  Doddridge  in  the 
Chair. 

Mr.  Summers  offered  the  following  resolutions: 

"  1.  Resolved,  That  each  county  ought  to  be  divided  into  wards,  so  that  there  shall  be 
not  less  than  three,  nor  more  than  seven,  in  any  one  county.  That  there  ought  to  be 
elected  in  each  ward,  by  the  voters  qualified  to  vote  for  members  of  the  House  of 
Delegates,  one  commissioner,  and  that  the  commissioners  elected  in  the  several 
wards,  ought  to  form  a  Board  of  Police  for  their  respective  counties. 

2.  Resolved,  That  the  commissioners  of  police  ought  to  go  out  of  office,  one  at 
the  end  of  each  year,  to  be  determined  in  the  first  instance  by  lot;  and  that  succes- 
sors ought  to  be  elected  by  their  respective  wards,  to  serve  for  a  number  of  years 
equal  to  the  number  of  commissioners  in  such  county,  so  that  one  commissioner  of 
police  may  be  chosen  in  each  county,  at  every  annual  election. 

"  3.  Resolved,  That  the  Boards  of  Police  ought  to  be  charged  with  the  superintendence 
and  direction  of  the  fiscal  concerns  of  their  respective  counties — with  power  to  as- 
sess, levy,  and  cause  to  be  collected,  all  local,  county,  or  ward  taxes,  and  to  direct  the 
disbursement  of  the  same,  to  superintend  all  provisions  and  expenditures  for  the  sup- 
port of  the  poor ;  and  that  the  opening,  preserving,  and  improving  of  the  public  roads 
and  other  highways,  with  the  erection  of  bridges,  and  other  public  structures,  ought 
to  be  confided  to  the  boards  of  police. 

"  4.  Resolved,  That  it  ought  to  be  the  duty  of  the  several  Boards  of  Police  from 
time  to  time,  or  whenever  required  by  the  Governor,  to  recommend  to  him  suitable 
persons  to  fill  the  offices  of  justice  of  the  peace,  and  to  make  any  other  recommen- 
dations, and  perform  such  other  duties  as  may  be  required  by  law. 

5.  Resolved,  That  the  proceedings  of  the  several  Boards  ought  to  be  recorded  and 
preserved  by  such  officer  as  the  General  Assembly  shall  designate,  and  that  the  Com- 
missioners ought  to  receive  a  moderate  compensation  for  their  services,  to  be  ascer- 
tained by  law,  and  paid  out  of  the  county  funds. 

^'  6.  Resolved,  That  each  commissioner  of  police  ought  to  be  a  conservator  of 
the  peace  within  his  county,  and  if  holding  no  office,  or  employment,  incompatible 
with  that  of  justice  of  the  peace,  ought  to  be  included  in  the  commission  of  the  peace." 

In  supporting  the  resolutions,  Mr.  Summers  said,  he  was  one  of  those  who  be- 
lieved that  there  were  certain  af/nori  principles,  which  entered  into  the  formation  of 
all  just,  or  free  Governments,  notwithstanding  the  arguments,  which  he  had  heard  in 
disparagement  of  this  opinion — principles,  which  if  disregarded,  must,  in  a  greater, 
or  less  degree,  mark  the  tyrannical  character  of  the  Government  from  which  they  are 
excluded.  One  of  those  principles  long  concurred  in  by  every  friend  of  rational  free- 
dom, was,  that  the  contributions  levied  from  the  people,  ought,  in  all  cases,  to  be  re- 
gulated and  controlled  by  those  who  pay  them.  That  the  taxing  power  can  of  right, 
only  reside  with,  and  be  exercised  by  agents,  chosen  immediately  by  the  people,  and 
accountable  directly  to  them  for  the  exercise  of  this  power.  These  principles  form- 
ing the  very  foundation  of  our  political  institutions,  are  entirely  disregarded  in  the 
imposition  of  a  large  portion  of  the  taxes  paid  by  the  people  of  Virginia.  In  the 
form  of  county  levies,  our  County  Courts  exercise  under  our  present  system,  a  more 
extensive  power  of  taxation  in  many  of  the  counties  than  that  exercised  by  the  Le- 
gislature. 

The  repairing  of  the  highways— the  erection  of  public  buildings,  and  various  other  ob- 
jects of  expenditure  placed  under  their  controul,  calls  into  exercise,  an  authority  in 
relation  lo  taxation,  which,  in  his  opinion  ought  to  be  placed  in  other  hands.  The 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


627 


County  Courts,  he  said,  do  not  emanate  either  directly,  or  indirectly  from  the  people ; 
they  are  not  responsible  to  them  in  any  form,  and,  therefore,  cannot  be  fit  agents  to 
decide  on  the  extent  of  the  public  burdens,  or  the  expenditure  of  the  public  funds. 
To  subject  the  people  to  be  thus  taxed,  by  agents  in  whose  selection  they  have  never 
been  consulted,  was  clearly  against  the  Republican  maxim  insisted  upon,  where  its 
application  was  much  less  obvious;  that  the  taxes  of  the  State,  ought  to  be  granted 
by  the  people  of  the  State.  In  looking  around  for  a  substitute  for  the  County  Courts 
in  relation  to  this  particular  power,  now  exercised  by  them,  he  had  consulted  the  ex- 
perience and  example  of  some  of  our  sister  States,  and  the  opinions  of  one  of  the 
most  distinguished  of  our  own  Statesmen,*  and  the  several  conclusions  of  his  mind  had 
resulted  in  the  propositions  under  consideration.  They  covered  less  ground  than  they 
probably  would  have  done,  had  he  not  witnessed  the  previous  discussions — discussions, 
which  had  evinced  the  reluctance  with  which  any  changes  were  to  be  made  in  our  ex- 
isting institutions,  and  particularly  those  which  proposed  any  modification  of  the  powers 
of  the  existing  County  Courts.  He  had  listened  to  all  the  reasoning  which  had  been 
offered  in  relation  to  those  tribunals,  without  concurring  in  the  animated  eulogies 
which  had  been  pronounced  upon  them  on  the  one  side,  or  the  general  condemnation 
which  they  had  called  forth  on  the  other:  he  regarded  them  as  valuable  in  many  points 
of  view,  and  was  satisfied  that  they  would  not  be  less  so,  if  deprived  of  some  of  their  ano- 
malous powers.  He,  however,  took  pleasure  in  bearing  testimony  to  the  general  respec- 
tability and  integrity  of  the  magistrates  of  the  State,  so  far  as  he  had  had  an  oppor- 
tunity of  becoming  acquainted  with  them,  and  particularly  of  those  in  that  quarter  of 
the  Commonwealth  in  which  he  was  most  familiar :  he  believed  as  few  abuses  oc- 
curred in  the  exercise  of  their  various  powers,  as  ought  reasonably  to  be  expected  un- 
der the  circumstances  of  their  creation,  and  the  great  diversity  of  subjects  confided 
to  them.  With  the  Judicial  powers  of  the  County  Courts,  he  had  not  the  slightest 
inclination  to  interfere;  those  courts,  he  believed,  administered  justice  as  cheaply, 
and  as  satisfactorily,  in  the  ordinary  and  less  complicated  class  of  cases,  as  could  rea- 
sonably be  expected  from  any  tribunals,  which  might  be  devised  to  supply  their  place 
in  the  general  administration  of  justice ;  and  as  the  power  was  about  to  be  given  to 
the  Legislature  to  make  such  alterations  and  modifications  in  the  jurisdictions  of 
those  courts,  as  experience  might  dictate,  he  hoped  those  would  become  satisfied  who 
looked  to  the  County  Courts  with  less  confidence  than  he  did. 

The  power  of  perpetuating  their  own  body — of  making  all  appointments  to  county 
offices,  and  levying  and  disbursmg  the  county  taxes,  were  the  anomalous,  and  incon- 
gruous pov/ers,  v/liich  in  his  humble  judgment  ought  to  be  lodged  with  persons  elec- 
ted immediately  by  the  people. 

Our  County  Courts  on  the  creation  of  a  new  county,  are  usually  composed  of  per- 
sons recommended  to  the  Governor  by  the  Delegates,  or  Senators  from  the  adjoining 
counties,  and  thenceforward  the  addition  of  their  members,  depends  alone  on  the 
choice  of  those  already  on  the  bench.  The  objections  to  this  mode  of  keeping  up  the 
succession,  are  many,  and  obvious,  and  no  where  placed  in  stronger  points  of  view 
than  by  Mr.  Jefferson  in  the  letter  before  alluded  to.  As  far  as  his  recollection  ex- 
tended, no  one  had  defended  this  course  of  appointment  as  correct  in  principle,  or 
desirable  in  practice  :  the  only  difference  of  opinion  seemed  to  be  in  devising  a 
mode  free  from  objection.  Elections  by  the  people  of  Judicial  officers  who  may  be 
called  upon  to  decide  between  those  who  supported,  and  those  who  opposed  their 
election^  is,  perhaps,  among  all  the  modes  of  appointment,  the  most  objectionable.  To 

*  "  In  the  Legislature,  the  House  of  Representatives  is  chosen  by  loss  than  half  the  people,  and  not 
at  all  in  proportion  to  those  who  do  choose.  The  Senate  are  still  naore  disproportionate,  and  for  long 
terms  of  irresponsibility.  In  the  Executive,  the  Governor  is  entirely  independent  of  the  clioice  of  the 
people,  and  of  their  control ;  his  Council  equally  so,  and  at  best  but  a  fifth  wheel  to  a  wagon.  In  the 
Judiciary,  the  Judges  of  the  highest  courts  are  dependent  on  none  but  themselves.  In  England,  where 
Judges  were  named  and  removable  at  the  will  of  an  hereditary  Executive,  from  which  branch  most  mis- 
xule  was  feared,  and  has  flowed,  it  was  a  great  point  gained,  by  fixing  them  for  life,  to  make  tliem  inde- 
pendent of  that  Executive.  But  in  a  Government  founded  on  the  public  will,  this  principle  operates 
in  an  opposite  direction,  and  against  that  will.  There,  too,  they  were  still  removalde  on  a  concur- 
rence of  the  Executive  aud  Legislative  branches.  But  we  have  made  them  independent  of  the  nation 
itself.  They  are  irremovable,  but  by  their  own  body,  for  any  depravities  of  conduct,  and  oven  by  their 
own  body  for  the  imbecilities  of  dotage.  The  justices  of  tlie  inferior  courts  are  self-choson,  are  for 
life,  and"  perpetuate  their  own  body  in  succession  forever,  so  that  a  faction  once  possessing  themselves 
of  the  bench  of  a  county,  can  never  be  broken  up,  but  hold  their  county  in  chains,  forever  indissoluble. 
Yet  these  justices  are  the  real  Executive  as  ^\  eli  as  Judiciary,  in  all  onr  minor  and  most  ordmary  con- 
cerns. They  tax  us  at  will ;  fill  the  office  of  sherifl:',  the  most  important  of  all  the  Executive  officers 
of  the  county ;  name  nearly  all  our  military  leaders,  which  leaders,  once  named,  are  removable  but  by 
themselves.  The  juries,  our  judges  of  all  fact,  and  of  law  when  they  choose  it,  are  not  selected  by 
the  people,  nor  amenable  to  them.  They  are  chosen  bv  an  officer  named  by  the  court  and  Executive. 
Chosen  did  I  say  ?  Picked  up  by  the  sherifl:'  from  the  loungin^s  of  the  court  yard,  atter  every  thmg  re- 
spectable has  retired  from  it.  Where  then  is  our  Kepnblicanism  to  be  found  ?  Not  in  our  Constitution 
certainly,  but  merely  in  the  spirit  of  our  people.  That  would  oblige  even  a  despot  to  govern  us  Re- 
publicanly.  Owing  to  this  spirit,  and  to  nothing  in  the  form  of  our  Constitution,  all  thuigs  have  gone 
■well.  But  this  fact,  so  triumphantly  misquoted^by  the  enemies  of  reformation,  is  not  the  fi-uit  of  our 
Constitution,  but  has  prevailed  in  spite  of  it.  Our  functionaries  have  done  M'ell,  because  generally 
honest  men.   If  any  were  not  so,  they  feared  to  shew  iW— Jefferson's  Works,  vol.  4,  pp.  286,  287. 


623 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


confide  the  power  of  appointment  to  the  Governor,  without  the  aid  of  a  recommend- 
ing body,  might  be  an  unwise  extension  of  patronage,  and  in  most  instances,  it 
would  leave  the  appointments  to  be  made  on  private  and  irresponsible  advice. 

The  Boards  of  Police,  he  thought,  would  be  free  from  either  class  of  those  objec- 
tions, and  offered  a  safe  alternative,  not  only  for  the  recommending  of  justices  of  the 
peace,  but  of  many  other  of  the  county  officers.  Elected  directly  by  the  people,  ap- 
pointments through  their  instrumentality  would  assume  somewhat  of  a  popular  cha- 
racter, and  would  unquestionably,  in  some  measure,  reflect  the  public  will,  in  the  se- 
lection of  the  public  agents.  Called  into  office  by  the  people  of  their  several  wards, 
those  boards  would  be  more  likely  to  recommend  justices  of  the  peace  with  a  view  to 
the  convenience  of  the  people,  and  to  the  fitness  and  qualifications  of  the  persons  to 
be  appointed,  than  can  be  expected  in  the  present  mode  of  selection. 

It  is  said,  that  the  taxing  power  of  the  County  Courts,  has  its  foundation  in  Legis- 
lative enactments,  and  may,  therefore,  be  transferred  at  the  pleasure  of  that  body. 
That  this  experiment  ought  not  to  be  engrafted  on  the  organic  law,  because,  experi- 
ence may  not  demonstrate  its  beneficial  character,  and  if  it  shall  turn  out  prejudicial, 
the  ordinary  Legislature  cannot  remedy  the  evil.  These  arguments,  he  thought, 
would  lose  much  of  their  force  by  reflecting,  that,  the  power  of  taxation  was  among 
the  most  delicate  of  the  powers  of  Government,  and  which,  a  free  people  will  always 
regard  v^^^ith  the  greatest  sensibility :  those  considerations,  he  thought,  strongly  re- 
commended a  disposition  of  this  power  by  the  Constitution,  in  preference  to  leaving 
it  to  the  discretion  of  the  General  Assembly.  Experience,  he  said,  proved  the  ten- 
dency of  that  body  to  accumulate,  rather  than  diminish,  the  powers  of  those  courts, 
and  that  it  could  not  well  be  otherwise,  from  the  number  of  justices  of  the  peace  an- 
nually returned  as  members  of  the  Legislature.  However  valuable  the  services  of 
those  gentlem.en,  and  he  felt  no  disposition  to  question  their  merits,  the  Committee 
must  recollect,  that  their  number  varied  throughout  the  State,  from  two  thousand 
eight  hundred,  to  three  thousand  four  hundred;  and,  he  put  it  to  gentlemen  fairly  and 
frankly  to  decide,  whether  this  body  of  men,  permanent  in  their  offices,  and  exer- 
cising great  influence  over  public  opinion,  and  over  the  persons  and  property  of  their 
fellow-citizens,  were  likely  to  lose  any  of  their  powers  or  patronage  by  the  action  of 
the  ordinary  Legislature.  He  believed,  that  if  a  transfer  of  the  taxing  and  appointing 
powers,  was  ever  to  take  place,  it  must  be  through  the  instrumentality  of  the  Con- 
vention. 

The  objection  founded  on  the  unchangeable  character  of  a  Constitutional  pro- 
vision, he  thought,  not  entitled  to  the  weight  which  some  gentlemen  seemed  disposed 
to  ascribe  to  it,  as  it  would  be  perceived,  that  the  resolutions  under  consideration  pro- 
posed to  ingraft  but  the  skeleton  of  this  branch  of  the  Government  on  the  funda- 
mental law,  and  that  the  Legislature  would  be  plenary,  as  to  the  extent — and  the 
manner  of  exercising  the  powers  proposed  to  be  delegated,  would  have  entire  control 
in  limiting  and  directing  the  powers  of  taxation,  and  in  regulating  its  exercise  in  all 
the  details  :  That  while  the  Constitution  would  provide  for  the  creation  of  the  agents, 
every  thing  else  connected  with  the  agency,  would  be  lefl  to  Legislative  provision 
and  modification. 

He  begged  leave,  to  anticipate  another  objection  which  had  been  suggested  to  him 
elsewhere:  That  the  County  Court  magistrates,  although,  not  elected  by  the  people, 
or  responsible  to  them,  were  safe  depositories  of  the  power  of  taxing,  because,  they 
are  themselves  included  in  the  effect  of  every  tax  which  they  impose.  To  this  argu- 
ment, he  answered,  that  a  large  proportion  of  the  justices,  were  usually  appointed  in 
the  neighborhoods  near  their  respective  court  houses,  for  the  purpose  of  ensuring  the 
regular  holding  of  the  courts,  and  the  result  not  unfrequently  was,  that  both  taxation 
and  expenditure  were  governed  by  this  circumscribed  interest,  to  the  serious  neglect 
of  more  distant  sections  of  the  counties  :  That  justices  of  the  peace  were  frequently 
contractors  for  work  to  be  done  under  the  authority  of  the  courts  of  which  they  were 
members,  and  so  became  more  interested  in  the  imposition  of  taxes,  than  was  con- 
sistent with  a  fair  and  impartial  discharge  of  the  duties  of  laying  them.  But  the 
public  may  suffer  as  much  by  the  courts'  refusing  to  provide  for  the  erection  [of 
bridges,  and  other  public  structures,  and  the  repairs  of  the  highways,  ashy  an  excess 
of  taxation  ;  and  if  the  justices  furnish  security  against  inordinate  levies  by  the  por- 
tions which  they  must  necessarily  pay,  the  same  considerations  may  in  many  instan- 
ces, lead  to  very  injurious  omissions  of  public  works  intimately  connected  with  the 
best  interests  of  their  counties — transfer  this  pov/er  to  boards  of  police  elected  in  the 
different  wards  of  each  county,  and  you  will  place  the  duties  and  powers  in  the  hands 
of  persons  stimulated  by  the  confidence  of  their  fellow  citizens,  and  whose  conduct 
will  be  regulated  by  accountability  to  public  opinion,  and  responsibility  to  the  con- 
stituent body,  which  rarely  fails  to  bring  into  action  the  best  means  of  effecting  the 
proposed  ends.  Commissioners  so  elected,  can  scarcely  fail  to  bring  into  the  pub- 
lic service,  a  more  intimate  knowledge  of  the  wants,  the  interests,  and  abilities  of  the 
people  of  their  respective  counties,  with  a  greater  degree  of  sympathy  in  their  wel- 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


629 


fare  and  prosperity,  than  the  justices  of  the  peace  can  be  supposed  to  possess,  who 
are.  and  ought  to  be  selected  without  pecuHar  regard  totliose  qualifications. 

Mr.  S.  requested  gentlemen  to  reflect,  that  they  had  the  benefit  of  experience  to 
guide  them  as  to  the  beneficial  efiects  of  committing  the  subject  of  local  taxation  to 
ao-ents  elected  by  the  people  :  he  reminded  the  Committee,  of  the  taxes  imposed  and 
disbursed  for  the  maintenance  and  support  of  the  poor,  by  overseers  elected  in  the 
different  parishes,  and  appealed  to  the  experience  of  those  who  had  been  most  atten- 
tive to  such  subjects,  if  the  poor  rates  were  not  more  judiciously  applied,  and  gene- 
rally managed  with  more  economy  than  the  county  levies. 

In  connection  with  the  establishment  of  Boards  of  Pohce,  Mr.  S.  said,  he  looked 
to  more  equal  distributions  of  the  public  burdens;  he  anticipated  the  abolition  of  the 
poll-tax,  which  exacted  equal  contributions  from  the  same  number  of  individuals, 
whether  poor  and  destitute,  or  possessed  of  the  greatest  affluence,  provided  they  shall 
be  without  slaves.    This  mode  of  assessing  the  county  taxes,  he  thought,  must  shortly 
give  place  to  a  property  tax,  reqifiring  greater  care,  system  and  skill,  in  the  manage- 
ment of  its  details,  than  had  been  heretofore  called  for  by  our  loose  and  unequal  capi- 
tation tax — and  for  the  assessment  and  administration  of  the  revenue  of  the  counties 
upon  such  improved  principles,  the  proposed  Boards  of  Police  would  be  found  peculi- 
arly appropriate  and  convenient.    While  on  this  subject,  he  begged  leave  to  remark, 
that  Dfentlemen,  who  drew  their  rules  of  equality  and  justice  from  a  state  of  society 
wher^  the  number  of  slaves  owned  by  each  member  gave  a  tolerable  fair  rule  for  the 
contribution,  could  not  well  imagine  the  injustice  of  our  road  laws  in  their  operation 
on  those  quarters  of  the  State  where  there  are  but  few  slaves,  and  much  of  the  land 
unoccupied,  and  held  by  non-resident  proprietors.    There  the  poor  man  is  called  upon 
to  contribute  an  equal  share  of  labor  and  money,  with  the  rich  in  opening  and  im- 
provincf  the  roads  of  the  country ;  there  those  avenues  of  intercourse  and  internal 
trade  are  mainly  created  and  sustained  by  the  labor  of  the  settlers,  who  have 
comparatively  but  little  interest  in  their  results,  while  the  larger  proprietors,  whose 
estates  are  opened  to  settlements  and  sales,  and  essentially  enhanced  in  value  by  those 
operations,  most  frequently  bear  no  part  of  the  burdens  of  the  improvement.  More 
enlightened  legislation,  he  thought,  must  very  shortly  change  our  sj^stem  in  those 
particulars,  by  transferring  the  weight  of  contribution  from  the  persons,  to  the  ^^ro- 
perty  of  the  country. 

There  was  another  subject  of  great  interest,  for  the  management  of  which  he- 
thought  those  Boards  of  Police  would  be  particularly  adapted.  He  meant  the  super- 
intendence of  primary  education.  This  was  in  some  measure  a  complex,  and  in  every 
point  of  view,  a  very  delicate  and  important  trust;  on  the  successful  management  of 
which,  much  of  individual  happiness,  and  national  prosperity  must  depend.  He  be- 
lieved it  essential  to  the  success  of  any  system  of  general  education,  that  the  affec- 
tions of  the  people  should  be  enlisted  in  its  favour,  by  giving  them  some  participa- 
tion and  controul  in  its  direction  and  application.  A  system  of  education  calculated 
to  carry  its  blessings  equally  to  the  cottage,  and  the  wealthy  farm-house  ;  which  shall 
place  the  means  of  instruction  equal]}'  within  the  reach  of  all,  and  teach  those  prac- 
tical lessons  of  equality  which  are  acquired  in  common  schools,  supported  at  the 
common  expense,  were  among  the  most  important  benefits  wliich  he  hoped  from  the 
re-organization  of  the  Government. 

He  however  disclaimed  any  wish,  or  intention,  of  drawing  upon  the  wealth  of  one 
part  of  the  State,  to  educate  the  children  of  another :  the  imputation  of  such  a  design 
he  said  was  wholly  gratuitous,  and  without  the  slightest  ground  on  which  to  found 
such  a  suspicion.  No  man  felt  more  strongly  than  he  did.  the  injustice  of  the  impu- 
tation;  his  mind  revolted  as  strongly  from  any  such  sinister  design,  as  it  did  against 
the  injustice  of  exciting  local  apprehensions,  when  no  reasonable  grounds  of  fear  were 
to  be  found.  The  friends  of  education  in  the  West,  he  was  satisfied,  never  contem- 
plated in  their  most  liberal  views,  any  resources  for  the  expense  of  education,  beyond 
what  the  Literary  Fund  may  reasonably  spare  to  that  purpose,  other  than  contribu- 
tions within  the  wards,  or  school  districts,  for  the  support  of  each  particular  school. 
Many,  he  believed,  were  prepared  to  place  the  burdens  of  education  on  the  property 
of  the  country,  by  supporting  well-organized,  and  well  conducted  schools,  by  assess- 
ments upon  each  district,  according  to  the  property  and  ability  of  the  inhabitants; 
and  he  hoped  public  opinion  would  shortly  authorise  a  fair  experiment  upon  those 
principles. 

He  had  adverted  to  education  in  part,  because  of  the  unspeakable  importance  of 
its  influence  on  our  Government;  resting  as  it  does  on  public  morals  and  general  in- 
telhgence.  Early  elementary  instruction,  he  said,  was  the  great  preservative,  pledge, 
and  safeguard  of  our  free  institutions  :  as  to  our  parchment  Constitutions,  he  regarded 
them  but  as  pack-thread  and  paper,  unless  sustained  by  morals,  intelligence,  and  the 
social  virtues.  Whenever  his  anxieties  rose  on  the  subject  of  the  perpetuity  of  our 
representative  system,  his  mind  invariably  turned  to  education  for  all  his  hopes — ■ 
here  liberty  was  secured  at  its  source  :  while  tlie  fouiatain  is  pure  at  its  head,  occa- 


630 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Bional  turbidness  in  the  stream  can  produce  no  lasting  diseases  in  the  body  politic. 
The  safety  of  the  Commonwealth,  he  was  persuaded,  could  only  be  secured  by  the 
knowledge,  discrimination,  and  habits  of  those  who  are  to  be  the  future  directors  of 
its  destiny — in  their  morals  and  patriotism  all  must  rest.  Pie  asked  the  indulgence 
of  the  Committee  for  the  time  which  he  had  occupied  with  this  branch  of  the  sub- 
ject, it  lay  in  his  way,  or  he  should  not  have  touched  upon  it ;  but  having  adverted  to 
it,  he  found  it  sufficient  to  restrain  his  reflection  on  a  topic  of  so  much  interest. 

In  explaining  that  part  of  his  plan  which  proposed  to  give  to  the  Boards  of  Police, 
the  nomination  of  the  justices  of  the  peace,  Mr.  S.  said,  the  abolition  of  the  present 
mode  of  recommending  those  officers,  he  found  encountered  the  prejudices  resulting 
from  long  usage,  and  that  the  feature  of  self-perpetuation,  would  not  be  yielded  with- 
out great  reluctance,  if  at  all.  Still,  however,  he  hoped  that  a  majority  of  the  Com- 
mittee would  concur  with  him  in  this  particular  provision,  but  should  he  be  mistaken 
in  this  anticipation,  that  part  of  the  resolution  might  be  rejected,  without  materially 
affecting  the  general  objects  for  which  the  scheme  was  intended  to  provide,  although 
not  without,  in  his  opinion,  serious  disadvantage  ;  so  also,  as  to  the  provision  which 
proposes  to  confer  on  the  police-commissioners  the  powers  of  conservators  of  the 
peace.  There  are  many  who  cannot  from  incompatible  official  situations,  hold  seats 
on  the  bench  of  the  County  Courts,  and  yet  be  of  great  value  to  the  community  as 
police-commissioners,  and  as  guardians  of  the  public  tranquillity. 

The  records  of  those  Boards  he  presumed  would  be  confided  to  the  clerks  of  the 
County  Courts ;  but  as  some  important  questions  in  relation  to  these  tribunals  were 
yet  unsettled,  he  deemed  it  most  expedient  to  leave  the  recording  officer  to  be  desig- 
nated by  law. 

Mr.  S.  in  conclusion  observed,  that  when  he  first  offered  those  resolutions,  he  had 
entertained  strong  hopes  that  the  system,  at  least  in  its  principal  features,  would  be 
adopted,  but  that  he  was  now  less  sanguine.  He  had  heard  principles  advanced  and 
advocated  here,  which  denied  to  the  people  the  capacity  of  advantageously  selecting 
any  of  the  public  functionaries,  except  those  who  are  to  enact  the  laws,  or  of  con- 
ducting any  of  the  operations  of  the  Government,  except  through  this  pecuhar  class 
of  agents.  To  this  circumscribed,  and  very  limited  range  of  popular  action,  he  could 
not  subscribe,  but  that  he  could  perceive  the  probable  influence  of  those  opinions  upon 
the  resolutions  under  consideration.  To  his  mind,  the  popular  character  of  the  pro- 
posed Boards  of  Police,  would  add  greatly  to  their  practical  value,  and  he  thought  the 
gradual  process  for  their  removal,  would  give  ample  assurance  of  steadiness  of  policy, 
and  of  purpose,  and  amply  provide  for  that  continuity  of  knowledge,  and  of  action, 
so  essential  to  the  preservation  of  all  the  public  interests.  If  left  to  his  own  reflec- 
tions, he  should  never  have  imagined  that  any  serious  objections  could  arise  to  this 
mode  of  creating  the  public  bodies,  to  whom  the  fiscal  concerns  of  the  counties  are 
proposed  to  be  committed ;  but  that  opinions  had  been  developed  upon  other  subjects 
of  very  opposite  tendency.  When  it  was  proposed  that  the  people  should  elect  the 
Chief  Magistrate  of  the  Commonwealth,  the  proposition  was  resisted  on  the  ground 
that  it  was  impossible  for  them  to  know  who  was  most  fit,  and  best  qualified.  Appre- 
hensions of  popular  excitement — fears  of  caucuses,  and  the  dread  of  tumult — the 
dangers  of  disorderly  assemblies  ending  in  intoxication — the  armies  of  demagogues, 
and  of  tavern-politicians,  who  would  take  the  field  ;  were  all  arrayed  before  us  in  the 
most  appalhng  forms.  When  it  Avas  proposed  to  let  the  citizens  in  arras  choose  those 
who  were  to  lead  their  platoons,  and  bear  their  standards,  and  to  confer  on  the  com- 
pany officers,  the  choice  of  the  commanders  of  battalions  and  regiments— the  dangers 
of  insubordination,  the  temptations  to  electioneering,  and  the  disorganizing  tendency 
of  the  measure,  v/ere  pourtrayed  in  the  most  vivid  colors.  With  those  admonitions 
before  him,  he  could  but  anticipate  like  objections  in  the  minds  of  many,  to  the  elec- 
tion of  commissioners  of  police  by  the  people.  He  hoped,  however,  that  a  majority 
of  the  Committee  would  act  on  principles  more  in  harmony  with  the  character  of  our 
Government,  and  more  congenial  with  the  age.  The  people  of  Virginia  have  for 
a  series  of  years  left  the  purse  strings — the  law-making  power,  and  the  appointment 
to  all  the  great  offices  of  the  State,  in  the  hands  of  an  Assembly,  representing  a 
meagre  minority  of  their  number.  They  have  left  the  whole  police  duties,  with 
the  power  of  imposing  and  disbursing  the  local  taxes,  in  the  hands  of  the  magistrates, 
in  whose  choice  they  have  no  agency,  and  over  whose  conduct  they  have  no  coritroul; 
but  they  now  claim  to  reform  the  Government  in  those  particulars,  and  they  will  not 
be  turned  aside  from  their  purpose. 

The  second,  third  and  fourth  resolutions  of  Mr.  Summers'  plan  were  then  read : 
(See  page  62G.) 

Mr.  Powell,  approving  the  residue  of  the  plan,  moved  to  amend  it  by  striking  out 
the  word  Resolved"  in  the  fourth  resolution,  (to  destroy  it.)  He  preferred  leaving 
this  subject  to  the  Legislature,  as  the  whole  scheme  was  new :  it  might  succeed  or 
not:  if  not,  it  was  then  within  reach  of  a  remedy;  but  if  introduced  into  the  Con- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


631 


stitution,  it  must  continue,  be  its  evil  effects  vdiatthey  would,  till  another  Convention 
w^as  called. 

Mr.  Summers  thought,  the  omission  of  this  part  of  the  plan  would  be  injurious  to 
it,  but  still  it  might  work  without  it ;  yet,  to  meet  the  gentleman's  views,  he  suggested 
the  middle  course :  let  the  magistrates  be  nominated  by  the  boards  of  commissioners, 
and  let  that  nomination  be  submitted  to  the  County  Courts :  thus,  the  nominations 
would  undergo  a  double  filtration. 

Mr.  Powell  thought  that  all  the  objections  which  applied  to  nominations  by  the 
County  Courts,  applied  equally  to  this  scheme. 

Mr.  Summers  said,  that  these  commissioners,  situated  at  remote  extremities  of  the 
county,  were  less  likely  to  combine  to  promote  family  interests  and  political  feuds. 

The  question  being  taken  on  striking  out,  it  was  carried — Ayes  48,  Noes  34. 

Mr.  Johnson,  to  test  the  sense  of  the  Committee,  moved  to  strike  the  word  "  Re- 
solved," from  tlae^r^f  resolution,  (thereby  rejecting  the  entire  scheme,)  and  the  ques- 
tion being  taken,  it  was  carried — Ayes  52. 

Mr.  Powell  moved  that  tJie  Committee  now  rise,  and  report  its  proceedings  to  the 
House. 

[This  motion  gave  rise  to  a  long,  and  by  far  the  most  desultory  debate,  which  has 
yet  occurred  in  the  Committee  :  but  which,  turning  mainly  on  principles  of  order,  it 
is  unnecessary  to  present  to  the  public] 

Messrs.  P.  P.  Barbour,  Scott,  Powell,  Mercer,  Johnson,  Fitzhugh,  Leigh,  Summers, 
Stanard,  Upshur,  and  Gordon,  severally  took  the  floor. 

The  main  principle  involved  was,  whether,  after  a  proposition  had  been  voted  by 
one  majority  of  the  Committee,  and  an  amendment  appended  to  it  by  a  different  ma- 
jority, any  question  was  necessary,  in  Committee  of  the  Whole,  on  the  two  united 
together. 

Mr.  Mercer,  believing  there  was  a  majority  of  the  Committee  opposed  to  the  pro- 
position of  Mr.  Gordon,  (which  distributes  according  to  certain  numbers  the  repre- 
sentation in  the  Legislature,  among  the  four  great  divisions  of  the  State,)  with  part 
of  Mr.  Upshur's  apj)e?ided  to  it,  (which  provides  a  plan  for  future  apportionment,) 
pressed  to  have  a  question  taken  07i  the  vJiole  together. 

This  was  opposed  as  being  not  in  order  in  Committee  of  the  Whole,  as  being  use- 
less, so  that  it  might  as  well  be  taken  in  the  House. 

The  question  being  taken  on  rising  and  reporting,  it  was  negatived — Ayes  41, 
Noes  47. 

The  debate  was  then  renewed,  but  ended  in  a  motion  by  Mr.  Mercer,  that  tha 
Committee  do  now  rise,  which  was  agreed  to. 

It  rose  accordingly,  and  thereupon  the  House  adjourned. 


TUESDAY,  December  15, 1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Me. 
Hoerner  of  the  Roman  Catholic  Church. 

Mr.  Powell  presented  the  following  letter  of  resignation,  which  was  read  and  laid 
on  the  table  : 

RICHMOND,  December  15th,  1829. 
Sir, — Circumstances  beyond  my  controul,  compel  me  to  resign  my  seat  in  the  body 
over  which  you  preside.  The  remaining  delegates  from  the  district  will,  of  course, 
supply  the  vacancy  occasioned  by  my  resignation.  With  the  strongest  feelings,  and 
most  heart-felt  desire  for  the  best  results  from  your  deliberations  for  our  beloved  State, 
with  tlie  kindest  recollections  for  yourself  and  every  member  of  the  Convention,  I 
beg  leave  to  subscribe  myself  your  and  their  friend  and  fellow-citizen, 

H.  L.  OPIE. 

P.  P.  Barbour,  Esq.  ) 

President  of  the  Convention,  y 

Mr.  Powell  said,  that  the  colleagues  of  Mr.  Opie  would  select  a  person  to  fill  his 
place  before  the  meeting  of  the  Convention  to-morrow. 

The  Chairman  informed  the  House  that  he  should  be  prepared  to  report  the  pro- 
ceedings of  the  Committee  after  about  an  hour's  farther  labour  in  copying  :  that  when 
the  report  was  completed,  it  would  astonish  any  one,  to  find  how  few  of  the  subjects, 
which  had  occupied  the  debates  of  the  Committee,  would  be  reported  upon  to  the 
House :  the  chief  embarrassment  arose  from  the  fact,  that  the  resolutions  numbered 
fourteen  and  fifteen  had  not  been  passed  upon  by  the  Committee  at  all. 

[They  are  as  follow  : 


632 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Resolved,  That  the  representation  in  the  Senate  and  House  of  Delegates  of  Vir- 
ginia, shall  be  apportioned  as  follows  : 

There  shall  be  thirteen  Senators  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge  of  Mountains,  and  nine- 
teen East  of  those  Mountains. 

"  There  shall  be  in  the  House  of  Delegates  one  hundred  and  twenty-seven  members; 
of  whom  twenty-nine  shall  be  elected  from  the  district  West  of  the  Alleghany  Moun- 
tains ;  twenty-four  from  the  Valley,  between  the  Alleghany  and  Blue  Ridge ;  forty 
from  the  Blue  Ridge  to  the  head  of  Tide-water,  and  tliirty-four  thence  below. 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Legislature  shall  re-arrange  the  representation  in  both  Houses 
of  the  General  Assembly,  once  in  every  years,  upon  a  fair  average  of  the  fol- 

lowing ratios,  to  wit : 

"  First,  of  white  population  : 

"  Second,  of  Federal  numbers. 

"  Provided,  That  the  number  of  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  never  exceed  , 
nor  the  number  of  the  Senate  ."] 

Mr.  Mercer  now  moved,  that  the  sense  of  the  Committee  be  taken  on  these  two 
resolutions,  taken  together,  as  an  amendment,  by  way  of  substitute,  for  the  second 
resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee  ;  (he  afterwards  modified  it  so  as  to  be  a  sub- 
stitute for  the  first  resolution  of  that  Committee.) 

Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour  suggested  as  a  preferable  arrangement,  that  the  Committee  of 
the  Whole  should  rise  ;  and  in  the  House  be  discharged  from  the  farther  considera- 
tion of  the  subjects  referred  to  them,  and  then  let  each  member  move,  in  the  House, 
such  propositions  as  had  been  considered,  (or  any  others,)  and  let  the  question  be  taken 
directly  on  agreeing  to  them,  instead  of  a  question  of  concurring  in  them  as  reported 
by  a  Committee.  This  arrangement  could  produce  no  public  injury  or  unfairness  to 
either  of  the  parties,  or  any  member  of  either. 

He  moved  that  the  Committee  rise ;  but  withdrew  the  motion,  at  the  request  of 

Mr.  Johnson,  who  objected  to  the  course  proposed,  as  leaving  the  proceedings  of 
the  House  without  any  definite  order,  or  course  of  succession.  After  some  farther 
conversation,  Mr.  Barbour  withdrew  his  motion. 

Mr.  Scott  moved  that  the  Committee  rise  and  report. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  enquired  what  was  then  to  be  reported  as  to  the  fourteenth  and 
fifteenth  resolutions  ? 

Mr.  Mercer  pressed  his  motion,  and  the  debate  on  it  occupied  the  Committee  dur- 
ing the  rest  of  the  day. 

He  claimed  his  right  to  have  the  question  so  taken,  because  there  had  been  an  im- 
plied agreement  when  those  propositions  were  offered,  that  a  question  should  so  be 
taken.  This  was  strenuously  denied — and  after  much  recapitulation  of  what  had 
taken  place  at  the  time, 

The  Chair  was  asked  to  decide  whether  such  a  motion  could  be  entertained  as  in 
■order 

The  Chair  decided  in  the  affirmative.  Mr.  Goode  took  an  appeal  to  the  Committee. 
The  motion  was  reduced  to  writing  by  Mr.  Mercer,  in  the  following  form  : 

Resolved,  That  the  question  be  put  to  the  Committee,  whether  the  propositions 
contained  in  the  fourteenth  and  fifteenth  resolutions,  being  the  amendment  of  the 
gentleman  from  Northampton,  as  amended  on  the  motions  of  the  gentleman  from 
Albemarle  and  the  gentleman  from  Noi-thampton,  be  adopted  as  an  amendment  by 
way  of  substitute  for  the  first  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  without  any 
motion  made  that  such  substitute  be  adopted." 

And  the  question  of  order  was  debated  till  near  three  o'clock. 

Mr.  Mercer  was  asked  whether  he  would  move  these  two  propositions  himself,  as 
an  amendment  to  the  second  resolution  ? 

This  he  declined  ;  but  insisted  that  the  sense  of  the  Committee  should  be  taken  on 
them,  as  one  whole  :  he  wanted  this,  in  order  to  govern  his  future  course. 

The  debate  was  strenuous  and  spirited ;  but  turning  entirely  on  questions  of  order, 
and  Parliamentary  usage,  we  adhere  to  our  usual  course,  in  abstaining  from  present- 
ing it  to  our  readers. 

The  question  was  at  length  taken  on  sustaining  the  decision  of  the  Chair,  and  de- 
cided in  the  negative — Ayes  40,  Noes  49. 

So  the  Committee  decided  that  the  motion  of  Mr.  Mercer  was  out  of  order,  and 
could  not  be  put. 

Mr.  Mercer  then  moved  that  the  Committee  do  now  rise  and  report. 
The  motion  prevailed,  and  the  Committee  rose  accordingly. 

Mr.  Doddridge  stated,  that  the  report  was  nearly  ready,  but  wanted  some  farther 
copying  to  complete  it. 

It  was  agreed  to  be  received  pro  forma,  as  if  actually  made ;  and  it  was  ordered 
that  it  he  on  the  table,  and  be  printed. 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


633 


Mr.  Gordon  moved,  that  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  be  discharged  from  all  those 
subjects  on  which  it  had  not  acted. 

After  some  explanations,  this  motion  was  agreed  to. 

The  Secretary  was  ordered  to  authenticate  the  upholsterer's  bill  for  carpeting  a 
portion  of  the  Church. 

And  then  the  House  adjourned. 


WEDNESDAY,  December  16,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Hoerner  of  the  Roman  Catholic  Church. 

Mr.  Powell  announced  to  the  Convention,  that  the  Delegation  from  his  district 
had  agreed  in  the  choice  of  Mr.  James  M.  Mason,  to  fill  the  vacancy,  occasioned  by 
the  resignation  of  Mr.  Opie. 

Mr.  Mercer  presented  the  following  letter  from  Gen.  Taylor  of  Norfolk : 

NORFOLK,  December  14,  1829. 
Sir, — I  have  been  notified  this  evening,  of  my  appointment  as  a  member  of  the 
Convention,  to  supply  the  vacancy  occasioned  by  the  resignation  of  Mr.  Monroe. 
Highly  as  I  value  this  honour,  considerations,  which  I  am  not  at  liberty  to  disregard, 
forbid  me  to  accept  the  appointment ;  and  I  take  the  earliest  opportunity  of  commu- 
nicating this  circumstance,  that  the  least  possible  inconvenience  may  result. 
I  have  the  honour  to  be, 

Very  respectfully. 

Your  obedient  servant, 

ROBERT  B.  TAYLOR. 

The  President  of  the  Convention. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Mercer,  the  letter  was  laid  upon  the  table. 

Mr.  Henderson  announced  to  the  Convention,  that  the  Loudoun  Delegation  had 
agreed  in  the  choice  of  Mr.  Joshua  Osborne,  now  a  Senator  of  this  State,  to  fill  the 
vacancy  to  which  Mr.  Taylor  had  been  elected. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Doddridge,  the  Convention  then  proceeded  to  consider  the  re- 
port of  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  : 

[The  Committee  of  the  Whole  Convention  have,  according  to  order,  had  under  con- 
sideration the  reports  of  the  several  Select  Committees,  on  the  different  Departments 
of  Government,  the  Declaration  of  Rights,  &c.  together  with  several  resolutions  and 
propositions  to  them  referred,  and  have  made  several  amendments  to  the  said  reports, 
which  they  beg  leave  to  submit.    These  amendments  are  as  follow,  viz  : 

Amendments  to  the  Report  of  the  Committee  on  the  Legislative  Department. 

First,  strike  out  from  the  word  "  Constitution,"  in  the  third  line,  of  the  third  resolu- 
tion, to  the  end  of  the  resolution,  and  insert,  "  and  shall  be  extended,  first,  to 
every  free  white  male  citizen  of  the  Commonwealth,  resident  therein,  above  the 
age  of  twenty-one  years,  who  owns  and  has  possessed  for  six  months,  or  who 
has  acquired  by  marriage,  descent  or  devise,  a  freehold  estate,  assessed  to  the 
value  of  not  less  than  dollars,  for  the  payment  of  taxes,  if  such  assessment 

shall  be  required  by  law ;  second,  or  who  shall  own  a  vested  estate  in  fee,  in  remain- 
der or  reversion,  in  land,  the  assessed  value  of  which  shall  be  dollars;  third,  or 
who  shall  own,  and  be  himself  in  actual  occupation  of,  a  leasehold  estate,  with  the 
evidence  of  title  recorded,  of  a  term  originally  not  less  than  five  years,  of  the  annual 
value  or  rent  of  dollars;  fourth,°or  who  for  twelve  months  next  preceding, 
has  been  a  house-keeper  and  head  of  a  family  within  the  county,  city,  borough,  or 
election  district,  where  he  may  offer  to  vote,  and  who  shall  have  been  assessed  with 
a  part  of  the  revenue  of  the  Commonwealth  within  the  preceding  year,  and  actually 
paid  the  same :  Provided,  nevertheless,  That  the  Right  of  Suffrage  shall  not  be  exer- 
cised by  any  person  of  unsound  mind,  or  who  shall  be  a  pauper,  or  a  non-commis- 
sioned officer,  soldier,  sailor,  or  marine,  in  the  service  of  the  United  States,  or  by  any 
person  convicted  of  any  infamous  crime."                                     .     „   ,  . 

8.  Resolved,  That  it  ought  to  be  provided  in  the  Constitution,  that  m  all  elections  m 
this  State  to  any  office  or  place  of  trust,  honor  or  profit,  the  votes  should  be  given 
openly,  or  viva  voce,  and  not  by  ballot. 

Amendments  to  the  Report  of  the  Committee  upon  the  Executive  Department. 
First,  add  to  the  first  resolution  the  words  following,  to  wit :  "  to  be  elected  by  the 
General  Assembly  for  three  years,  and  to  be  ineligible  for  three  years  thereafter. 
His  term  of  office  shall  commence  on  the  first  day  of  January  succeeding  his  elec- 
tion, or  on  such  other  day  as  the  Legislature  may  from  time  to  time  designate." 

80 


634 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Second  amendment,  add  to  the  second  resolution  the  following  :  "  to  be  elected  in 
the  same  manner,  and  at  the  same  time,  and  for  the  same  period  with  the  Governor." 
Third  amendment,  strike  out  the  fifth  resolution. 
Fourth  amendment,  strike  out  the  sixth  resolution. 

Fiftli  amendment,  strike  out  in  the  seventh  resolution,  from  the  word  "  Resolved," 
to  the  end  of  the  resolution,  and  insert,  "  that  the  mode  of  appointing  militia  officers, 
ought  to  be  provided  for  by  law :  Provided,  nevertheless,  That  no  officer  below  the 
grade  of  a  Brigadier  General,  should  be  appointed  by  the  General  Assembly." 

Sixth  amendment,  strike  out  the  eighth  resolution. 

Seventh  amendment,  add  the  following  to  the  report : 

9.  Resolved,  That  the  Governor  and  Lieutenant  Governor  shall  be  chosen  from  such 
persons  only  as  are  native  citizens  of  the  United  States,  who  have  attained  the  age  of 
thirty  years,  and  have  been  citizens  of  the  State  during  the  tive  years  immediately 
preceding  the  election. 

10.  Resolved,  That  both  the  Governor  and  Lieutenant  Governor  shall  receive  for 
their  services,  a  compensation  to  be  determined  law,  and  to  be  neither  increased  nor 
diminished,  during  the  term  for  which  they  shall  have  been  elected,  and  they  shall  be 
liable  to  be  impeached  and  removed  from  office,  for  treason,  bribery,  or  other  crimes 
or  misdemxeanors. 

11.  Resolved,  That  it  shall  be  the  duty  of  the  Governor  to  execute,  or  cause  to  be 
executed,  all  the  laws  of  the  Commonwealth;  to  communicate  to  the  Legislature,  at 
every  session,  the  condition  of  the  State,  and  to  recommend  to  their  consideration 
such  measures  as  he  may  deem  expedient.  He  shall  also  be  Commander-in-Chief  of 
the  land  and  naval  forces  of  the  State  ;  shall  have  power  to  convene  the  Legislature, 
v/hen  in  his  opinion,  the  interests  of  the  State  may  require  it.  or  on  application  of  a 
majority  of  the  members  of  the  House  of  Delegates :  to  fill  vacancies  occurring  du- 
ring the  recess  of  the  Legislature,  in  offices,  the  appointment  to  which  is  vested  in 
the  Legislative  body ;  to  grant  reprieves  or  pardons,  except  where  the  prosecution 
shall  have  been  carried  on  by  the  House  of  Delegates,  or  the  law  shall  otherwise  par- 
ticularly direct;  and  to  conduct,  either  in  person,  or  by  such  agents  as  the  Legisla- 
ture may  designate,  all  negociations  and  correspondence  with  other  or  foreign  States. 

Amendments  to  the  Report  of  the  Committee  on  the  Judicial  Department. 
First,  in  the  first  line  of  the  first  resolution,  before  the  word     court"  insert  "  Su- 
preme." 

Second,  in  the  third  line  of  the  same  resolution,  after  the  word  establish,"  strike 
out  the  word  and." 

Third,  after  the  word  courts"  in  the  third  line  of  the  same  resolution,  insert and 
in  the  justices  of  the  peace,  who  shall  compose  the  said  courts;  the  Legislature  may 
also  vest  such  jurisdiction  as  shall  be  deemed  necessary,  in  Corporation  Courts  and  in 
the  magistrates  who  may  belong  to  the  Corporate  Body." 

Fourth  amendment,  in  the  second  resolution,  third  line,  strike  out  the  word  "  first" 
where  it  occurs,  and  insert  the  same  word  before    Legislature"  in  the  same  line. 

Fifth  amendment,  in  the  fourth  line  of  the  same  resolution,  strike  out  the  word 
"  held,"  and  insert  the  word  elected." 

Sixth  amendment,  in  the  fourth  line  of  the  third  resolution,  strike  out  concur- 
rent," and  insert  "joint." 

Seventh  amendment,  after  the  word  "  Assembly,"  in  the  fifth  line  of  the  same  re- 
solution, strike  out  to  the  word    but,"  in  the  twelfth  line. 

Eighth  amendment,  in  the  fourth  resolution,  second  line,  after  the  word  courts," 
insert  "  except  justices  of  the  County  Courts,  and  the  aldermen,  or  other  m.agistrates 
of  Corporation  Courts." 

Ninth  amendment,  in  tlie  fifth  resolution,  strike  out  the  v/ords  "  by  and  with  the 
advice  and  consent  of  the  Senate." 

Amendment  to  the  Report  of  the  Committee  on  the  Bill  of  Rights,  ^c. 

First  amendment,  in  the  second  report  of  the  Committee  upon  the  Bill  of  Rights, 
&c.,  fifth  resolution,  second  and  third  lines,  strike  out  the  words  under  the  United 
States,  or." 

The  Committee  of  the  Whole  have  further,  according  to  order,  had  under  consid- 
eration, a  proposition  submitted  to  the  House,  on  the  30th  day  of  November  last,  by 
Mr.  Upshur,  of  the  tenor  following  to  wit : 

1.  "  Resolved,  That  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  consist  of  one  hundred  and 
twenty  members,  of  which,  there  shall  be  chosen  for  the  First  District,  or  Dis- 
trict West  of  the  Alleghany  mountain,  26 

For  the  Second  District,  or  District  of  the  Valley,  22 

For  the  Third  District,  or  District  between  the  Blue  Ridge  and  the  head  of 
tide-water,  33 

For  the  Fourth  District,  or  District  between  the  head  of  tide-water  and  the 
ocean, 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION 


635 


2.     Resolved,  That  tlie  Senate  shall  consist  of  thirty  members,  of  Vi-hich,  there 


shall  be  chosen  for  the  First  District,  aforesaid,  7 

For  the  Second  District,  aforesaid,  6 

For  the  Third  District,  aforesaid,  9 

For  the  Fourth  District,  aforesaid,  8 


3.  Resolved,  That  the  Legislature  shall  have  power  to  re-arrange  the  Representa- 
tion in  both  Houses  of  the  General  Assembly,  once  in  every  years,  upon  a 
fair  average  of  the  following  ratios,  to  wit:  first,  of  white  population:  second,  of 
white  population  and  taxation  combined  :  third,  of  Federal  numbers  :  Provided,  That 
the  number  of  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  never  exceed  one  hundred  and  sixty,  nor 
the  number  of  the  Senate  forty." 

To  which  your  Committee  beg  leave  to  report  the  following  amendments,  by  way 
of  substitute,  to  wit  : 

Resolved,  That  the  Representation  in  the  Senate  and  House  of  Delegates  of  Vir- 
ginia, shall  be  apportioned  as  follows  : 

"  There  shall  be  thirteen  Senators  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge  of  mountains,  and  nine- 
teen East  of  those  mountains. 

"  There  shall  be  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  one  hundred  and  twentv-seven  mem- 
bers;  of  whom,  twenty-nine  shall  be  elected  from  the  District  Yv  est  of  the  Alleghany 
mountain  ;  twenty-four  from  the  Valley  between  the  Alieghany  and  Blue  Ridge  j 
forty  from  the  Blue  Ridge  to  the  head  of  tide-water,  and  tliirty-four  thence  below. 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Legislature  shall  re-arrange  the  Representation  in  both  Houses 
of  the  General  Assembly,  once  in  every  years,  upon  a  fair  average  of  the 

following  ratios,  to  wit :  first,  wliite  population  :  second.  Federal  numbers  :  Provided, 
That  the  number  -of  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  not  exceed  ,  nor  the  num- 

ber of  the  Senate 

Mr.  Powell  enquired  of  the  Chair,  what  was  to  be  done,  in  relation  to  those  reso- 
lutions of  the  several  Committees,  to  which  there  were  no  amendments.' 

The  Chair  replied,  that  after  all  the  amendments  had  been  gone  through,  the  ques- 
tion would  then  be  put  on  concurring  with  the  resolutions  not  amended. 

Mr.  Doddridge  enquired,  whether,  after  the  House  should  have  concurred  in  any 
amendment  reported  by  the  Committee,  that  amendment  would  be  susceptible  of  far- 
tiier  amendment.' 

The  Chair  replied  in  the  negative :  but  stated,  that  any  amendment  which  was  pro- 
posed to  a  resolution  itself,  of  either  of  the  Committees,  would  be  in  order  :  and  even 
the  amendments  to  them  might  be  amended,  if  other  matter  were  included  in  the 
motion,  so  as  not  to  involve  the  contradiction  of  striking  out,  what  had  been  agreed 
to  be  put  in. 

The  question  then  recurring  on  the  concurrence  of  the  Convention  with  the  amend- 
ments proposed  by  the  Committee  of  the  "Whole  to  the  third  resolution  of  the  Legis- 
lative Committee  : 

Mr.  Doddridge  demanded  that  the  question  on  concurring  be  taken  by  yeas  and 
nays. 

Mr.  Tyler  asked,  that  the  amendment  proposed  to  the  third  resolution  should  be  di- 
vided into  clauses,  and  the  question  of  concurrence  be  put  upon  each  clause,  seriatim. 

Mr.  Leigh  enquired,  whether,  after  the  amendment  should  have  been  disposed  of, 
it  would  be  in  order  to  move  a  substitute 

The  Chair  replied  in  the  affirmative. 

Mr.  Stanard  demanded,  that  the  question  on  striking  out  the  several  clauses  in  the 
original  resolution,  in  order  to  introduce  the  amendments  in  their  room,  be  also  divided, 
and  put  separately  on  each  clause  : 

Which,  after  some  conversation  was  agreed  to. 

The  question  was  then  put  on  agreeing  with  the  report  of  the  Committee  of  the 
Whole  vrhich  recommends  that  the" following  clause  be  striken  out.  viz  :  "  Provided, 
That  no  person  shall  vote  by  virtue  of  his  freehold  only,  unless  the  same  shall  be 
assessed  to  the  value  of  at  least  dollars  for  the  payment  of  taxes,  if  such  assess- 

ment be  required  hy  law." 

Mr.  Stanard  moved  that  the  blank  in  the  above  clause  be  first  filled :  and  that  it  be 
filled  with  the  sum  of  twenty-five  dollars. 

On  this  motion,  Mr.  Powell  demanded  the  ayes  and  noes,  and  they  were  ordered 
by  the  House. 

'  Mr.  ]Mercer  questioned  the  right  of  having  the  question  of  striking  out  drawn  into 
clauses. 

The  Chair  replied,  that  it  was  usually  conceded  as  of  course  ;  but  the  House  might 
refuse  to  permit  it. 

?vlr.  Powell  withdrew  his  call  for  the  ayes  and  noes. 

Mr.  Thompson  now  moved  to  fill  the  blank  with  one  dollar ;  stating,  that  the  price 
at  which  the  State  sold  its  lands  being  two  dollars  for  one  hundred  acres,  one  dollar 
would  purchase  fifty  acres  of  land. 


636 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr,  Stanard  opposed  the  motion  as  going  to  make  the  proviso  ridiculous  and  pre- 
posterous. The  very  extent  of  the  proviso  is,  to  prevent  men  from  voting  on  mere 
nominal  freeholds ;  and  to  fill  the  blank  at  one  dollar,  w^ould  make  the  freehold  nomi- 
nal merely,  and  was  in  fact,  the  introduction  of  Universal  Suffrage. 

Mr.  Thompson  said,  he  should  be  glad  if  he  could  defeat  the  proviso  and  make  it 
nominal  only.  He  was  one  of  those  who  regarded  a  freehold  Suffrage  as  "  ridiculous 
and  preposterous."  If  there  must  be  any  such  qualification  at  all,  he  was  for  making 
it  as  cheap  as  possible — and  all  who  thought  with  him  on  the  question  of  Suffrage, 
would  consider  it  their  duty  to  do  so.  ^  He  would  tell  the  gentleman  from  Spottsyl- 
vania,  (Mr.  Stanard,)  that  there  were  votes  given  in  the  county  of  Amherst  on  land 
not  assessed  at  eight  dollars  now,  at  this  present  time.  The  existing  Constitution 
said  nothing  about  the  quality  of  the  land  ;  it  required  a  certain  quantity  only.  The 
Constitution  gave  the  same  Right  of  Suffrage  on  a  freehold  of  fifty  acres,  that  it  did 
on  a  freehold  of  one  hundred  thousand.  That  might  be  called  "  ridiculous  and  pre- 
posterous." While  Virginia  sold  its  public  lands  at  two  dollars  for  one  hundred  acres, 
to  value  the  freehold  at  one  dollar,  (the  price  of  fifty  acres)  was,  in  his  opinion, 
neither  "  ridiculous  nor  preposterous." 

Mr.  Stanard  said,  he  had  not  affirmed  that  the  motion  was  ridiculous,  but  that  it 
would  make  the  proviso  appear  so.  Mr.  S.  had  addressed  the  friends  of  a  property 
qualification,  and  not  the  opposers  of  it  and  friends  of  Universal  Suffrage.  If  there 
were  freeholds  in  Amherst  not  worth  more  than  eight  dollars,  he  had  not  been  aware 
of  the  fact :  they  must  be,  he  presumed,  on  the  declivities  of  the  Blue  Ridge.  He 
asked  the  friends  of  a  freehold  Right  of  Suffrage,  whether  they  would  introduce  a 
proviso  which  was  a  restraint  in  one  part  of  the  State  and  not  in  another }  If  such 
was  the  effect  of  the  present  Constitution,  it  had  grown  out  of  the  changes  produced 
by  time,  and  ought  to  be  remedied. 

The  question  was  then  put  on  filling  the  blank  with  twenty-five  dollars,  and  nega- 
tived.— Ayes  37, 

Mr.  Scott  moved  to  fill  it  with  ten  dollars. 

Mr.  Brodnax  moved  twenty  dollars. 

Mr.  Marshall  suggested,  that  it  might  save  time  at  once  to  put  the  question  on 
agreeing  with  the  report  of  the  Committee  first :  if  the  clause  were  retained,  the  blank 
could  be  filled  afterwards. 

The  several  motions  for  filling  the  blank,  were  thereupon  withdrawn. 

Mr.  Nicholas  was  opposed  to  requiring  any  specific  value  in  the  freehold.  The  lit- 
tle piece  of  land  of  the  poor  man  was  as  dear  to  him  as  the  estate  of  the  rich. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  that  the  effect  of  this  clause  was  to  disqualify  many  who  were  al- 
ready freeholders,  but  whose  freehold  might  not  come  up  to  the  required  value  :  He 
should  vote  to  strike  it  out,  because  he  would  not  consent  to  take  away  the  Right  of 
Suffrage  from  any  of  those  who  now  enjoyed  it.  He  was  unwilling  to  disturb  a  right 
once  vested,  though  if  consulted,  when  that  right  was  to  be  granted,  he  might  possi- 
bly have  refused  it. 

Mr.  Coalter  stated  a  fact  which  had  come  to  his  knowledge  in  relation  to  this  right 
of  voting.  A  man  bein^  called  to  serve  as  a  juryman,  was  asked  whether  he  was  a 
freeholder.?  He  replied  in  the  negative.  The  clerk  of  the  court  insisted  that  he  was, 
and  reminded  him  of  a  deed  recorded  six  months  before  which  conveyed  to  him  a 
freehold,  on  which  freehold  he  had  voted  at  the  last  election.  The  man  replied,  that 
he  knew  nothing  about  the  deed  :  that  he  disclaimed  the  deed  and  the  freehold  too  : 
and  when  he  had  voted,  had  voted  as  a  freeman,  supposing  himself  to  have  a  right  to 
do  so. 

The  question  was  now  put  on  striking  out  the  first  clause,  (see  above,)  and  was 
carried,  by  ayes  and  noes. 

Ayes— Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield, 
Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton, 
Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith, 
Baxter,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Venable,  Holladay,'  Mercer,, Henderson,  Os- 
borne, Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pen- 
dleton, George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Roane,  Morris,  Garnett, 
Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge, 
Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Campbell  of  Bedford, 
Clay  tor,  Saunders,  Branch,  Townes,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stewart,  Pleasants,  Gordon, 
Thompson,  Massie,  Bates,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin. — 75. 

JS'oes — Messrs.  Jones,  Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Leigh  of  Hali- 
fax, Logan,  Madison,  Stanard,  Fitzhugh,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green, 
Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Neale,  Rose  and  Coalter. — 20. 

So  the  Convention  concurred  in  the  report  of  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  recom- 
mending that  this  clause  be  stricken  out. 

Mr.  Scott,  after  adverting  to  the  full  attendance  of  the  members  of  the  Convention, 
(one  only  being  absent,  and  his  attendance  could  be  procured,)  moved  to  lay  the  re- 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


637 


port  of  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  upon  the  table,  v/ith  a  view  to  take  up  the  all- 
absorbing  question  of  the  Basis  of  Rejjresentaticni. 

Mr.  Doddridge  opposed  the  motion  as  only  leading  to  a  needless  consumption  of 
time. 

Mr.  Mercer  suggested,  that  the  gentleman  would  not  obtain  that  end  by  pursuing 
the  course  he  proposed.  The  proper  course  would  be,  to  take  up  first  the  amendments 
reported  by  the  Committee. 

Mr.  Scott  replied,  that  the  course  suggested  by  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun  would 
not  accomplish  the  object  he  had  in  view.  He  sought  to  obtain  a  settlement  of  the 
all-absorbing  question  of  Representation,  wJiich  affected  so  man}^  of  the  great  ques- 
tions before  the  Convention. 

He  wished  to  avail  himself  of  the  attendance  of  a  full  House,  and  at  once  to  take 
up  the  question  of  "  the  negro  Senate,"  as  it  had  been  called.  He  was  for  encoun- 
tering the  spirit  which  had  so  long  been  haunting  the  path  of  the  Convention  and 
meeting  it  at  every  turn,  and  for  laying  it.  Tliis  v^  as  his  object  and  he  meant  to  pur- 
sue it. 

Mr.  Summers  was  opposed  to  the  motion.  The  question  of  a  negro  Senate  might  be 
important  in  the  views  of  many  ;  but  he  would  not,  even  for  the  sake  of  settling  the 
question  as  to  a  negro  House  of  Delegates,  depart  from  the  regular  order  of  proceed- 
ings. The  question  was  absorbing,  indeed,  (and  he  feared  it  was  likely  to  absorb  the 
liberties  of  the  people  of  the  Commonwealth,)  but  he  could  not  consent  to  force  it  at 
this  moment.  Two  gentlemen  had  taken  their  seats  in  the  Convention  for  the  first 
time  that  morning ;  and  it  was  decorous  to  allov/  this  question  to  lie  at  least  one  day 
before  they  were  compelled  to  give  a  vote  upon  it. 

The  question  was  taken  on  postponing  the  report  of  the  Committee  of  the  Whole, 
and  lost. — Ayes  43. 

The  question  recurred  on  concurring  with  the  Committee  of  the  AVhole,  in  striking 
out  the  following  clause  of  the  report  of  the  Leo-islative  Committee,  viz  :  ''and  shall 
be  extended,  first,  to  every  free-white  male  citTzen  of  the  Commonwealth  resident 
therein,  above  the  age  of  twenty-one  years,  who  owns  and  has  possessed  for  six 
months,  or  who  has  acquired  by  marriage,  descent,  or  devise,  a  freehold  estate, 
assessed  to  the  value  of  not  less  than  dollars  for  the  payment  of  taxes,  if  such 

assessment  shall  be  required  by  lav/." 

Mr.  Green  moved  to  fill  the  above  blank  v.'ith  two  hundred  dollars. 

iVlr.  Brodnax  made  an  explanation  as  to  the  grounds  of  his  former  vote  which  was 
not  distinctly  heard  by  the  Reporter. 

jNIr.  M'Coy  moved  to  fill  the  blank  with  ten  dollars. 

Mr.  Leigh  with  fiity  dollars. 

Mr.  Stanard  moved  forty  dollars. 

Mr.  Powell  twentj'-five  dollars. 

The  question  was  put  on  two  hundred  dollars,  and  negatived. — Ayes  45,  Noes  48. 
The  question  was  put  on  forty  dollars,  and  negatived.— Ayes  45. 
It  was  then  put  on  twenty-five  dollars,  and  carried. — Ayes  52. 

The  questi(jn  then  recurring  on  concurring  with  the  Committee  of  the  W^hole  in 
striking  out  the  clause,  it  was"negatived. 

The  question  was  next  put  on  agreeing  to  strike  out  the  following :  "  second,  or 
who  shall  own  a  vested  estate  in  fee,  in  remainder  or  reversion,  in  land,  the  assessed 
value  of  which  shall  be  dollars." 

Mr.  Stanard  moved  to  fill  the  blank  with  fifty  dollars  :  which,  he  thought,  preserved 
a  proper  ratio  between  an  estate  in  possession  and  in  reversion. 

xMr.  Clay  tor  moved  twenty-five  dollars — not  seeing  any  reason  why  the  sum  should 
be  increased  :  the  owning  of  an  estate  in  reversion. "gave  a  man  the  same  interest  in 
the  community.    He  was  governed  only  by  that  principle. 

The  question  being  taken  on  filling  the  blank  with  fifty  dollars,  it  was  carried. — 
Ayes  51.  • 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Mercer,  the  following  clause  was  inserted,  viz  :  if  such  assess- 
ment shall  be  required  by  law." 

The  question  being  then  put  on  striking  out,  it  was  negatived. 

Mr.  Leigh  rose  to  offer  an  amendment,  which  went  not  to  affect  the  substance  at 
all,  of  what  had  been  agreed  on,  but  only  to  throw  it  into  a  more  distinct  snd  definite 
form.  He  wished  to  conform  it  to  the  language  of  the  Constitution  and  laws  ;  and 
also  to  introduce  a  class,  whicli,  he  was  well  assured,  it  was  not  the  intention  of  the 
Convention  to  exclude  :  he  meant,  co-parceners,  tenants  in  common,  and  joint-te- 
nants, in  a  freehold,  not  large  enough  as  to  its  number  of  acres,  to  fall  within  the 
Constitutional  hmit,  but  of  sutficient  value,  to  entitle  it  to  give  a  vote,  as  well  as 
others  which  were  larger.  He  moved  to  amend  the  report,  by  striking  out  all  from 
the  word  "  Resolved,"  to  the  word  Provided,"  and  to  insert  an  amendment,  which 
he  read— but  which  was  subsequently  withdrawn. 


638 


DEBATES   OF  THE 


CONVENTION. 


The  question  then  recurred  on  striking  out  the  following : 

"  3d.  Or  who  shall  own  and  have  possessed  a  lease-hold  estate,  with  the  evidence  of 
title  recorded,  of  a  term  originally  not  less  than  five  years,  ayid  one  of  ivhich  shall  he 
unexpired,  of  the  annual  value,  or  rent  of  dollars." 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Stanard,  the  clause  was  amended,  by  striking  out  the  words 
"  have  possessed,"  and  inserting  in  lieu  thereof,  the  words,  "  be  himself  in  the  actual 
occupation  of." 

And,  on  motion  of  Mr.  Mercer,  the  words,  "  and  one  of  which  shall  be  unexpired," 
were  stricken  out. — Ayes  54. 

The  question  now  recurring  on  striking  out  this  clause, 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  that  being  opposed  to  extending  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  to  tenants  sub- 
ject to  distress  by  their  landlords,  he  should  vole  to  strike  out  the  clause,  and  against 
inserting  any  other,  containing  that  principle.  He  demanded,  that  the  question  on 
striking  out,  be  taken  by  yeas  and  nays;  and  it  was  so  ordered. 

Mr.  Green  moved  to  fill  the  blank  with  twenty-five  dollars. 

Mr.  Claytor  moved  ten  dollars. 

The  motion  of  Mr.  Green  was  negatived. — Ayes  41,  Noes  52. 
Mr.  Doddridge  moved  five  dollars. 
Mr.  Stanard  moved  twenty  dollars. 

The  question  being  put  on  twenty  dollars;  it  was  carried. — Ayes  47,  Noes  47. 
The  Chair  in  the  affirmative. 

The  question  on  striking  out  was  then  taken,  and  decided  in  the  negative  by  ayes 
and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Giles,  Brodnax, 
Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trez- 
vant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Roane, 
Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Scott,  Tazewell,  Grigsby,  Loyall,  Prentis  and 
Tbwnes— 28. 

Moes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Marshall,  Tyler,  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harri- 
son, Williamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  M'Co)',  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter, 
Madison,  Stanard,  HoUaday,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell, 
Mason  of  Frederick,  Griggs,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Mil- 
lan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan, 
Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Barbour 
of  Culpeper,  Macrae,  Green,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  J^Jranch,  Saunders, 
Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Coalter, 
Rose,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 68. 

So  the  Convention  resolved  (by  a  vote  of  two-thirds,)  to  retain  the  clause  admitting 
lease-holders  to  the  Right  of  Suffrage. 

The  question  was  next  put  on  striking  out  the  following  clause  : 

^'Fourth,  Or  who  for  twelve  months  next  preceding,  has  been  a  house-keeper  and 
head  of  a  family  within  the  county,  city,  borough  or  election  district,  where  he  may 
offer  to  vote,  and  who  shall  have  been  assessed  with  a  part  of  the  revenue  of  the 
Commonwealth  within  the  preceding  year,  and  actually  paid  the  same." 

Mr.  Leigh  moved  to  amend  the  clause,  by  inserting  after  the  words,  "the  prece- 
ding year"  the  words,    to  the  amount  of  ." 

Mr.  Leigh  again  presenting  the  case  of  a  freeholder  excluded,  because  his  land  did 
not  come  up  to  the  constitutional  limit,  while  his  tenant,  paying  no  tax,  was  admitted 
to  vote  : 

He  demanded  the  yeas  and  nays  upon  the  amendment,  and  they  were  ordered  by 
the  House. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  the  case  put  by  Mr.  Leigh  could  not  happen,  as  the  latter  part  of 
the  clause  reqviired  the  tenant  to  pay  a  tax. 

Mr.  Leigh  replied,  that  this  was  mere  verbal  criticism  ;  the  tenant  might  pay  a  tax 
of  four  cents,  or  ten  cents  on  a  horse,  and  then  he  could  vote,  while  the  owner  of  his 
house  and  land  was  excluded  from  the  polls.  If  the  Legislature  should  be  possessed 
with  as  great  a  desire  to  extend  the  Right  of  Suffrage  as  some  gentlemen  in  the  Con- 
vention manifested,  they  might  lay  a  capitation  tax  of  one  cent,  or  of  one  mill,  and 
admit  every  man  to  vote.  The  injustice  of  excluding  the  landlord,  while  the  tenant 
voted  before  his  face,  was  huge  and  palpable;  and  the  only  remedy  was  to  fix  an 
amount  of  tax  to  be  paid. 

Mr.  Mercer  replied,  that  he  had  not  meant  his  remarks,  as  a  mere  verbal  criticism. 
He  was  not  himself  in  favour  of  taxation  as  a  qualification  at  all,  because  it  put  the 
extent  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage  into  the  power  of  the  Legislature,  who  might  indi- 
rectly contract  or  extend  it,  by  increasing  or  diminishing  taxation.  What  attracted 
him  to  the  resolution  was  the  preceding  part  of  it,  viz :  "  that  the  man  should  be  a 
house-keeper  and  head  of  a  family  :"  this  he  thought  a  much  better  test  of  interest 
in,  and  attaclmient  to,  the  community,  than  any  landed  qualification  whatever. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


639 


Mr.  Fitzhugh  said,  that  on  the  preceding  portions  of  the  report  he  had  voted  with 
comparative  indifference;  because,  taken  together,  they  formed  such  a  comphcated 
and  unequal  system  of  suffrage,  that  it  could  never  be  adopted. 

Mr.  F.  said  that  he  had,  after  much  reflection,  with  great  difhculty  brought  his 
mind  to  abandon  the  freehold  Right  of  Suffrage ;  and  he  had  done  so  mainly  out  of 
deference  to  what  he  believed  to  be  the  opinion  and  wishes  of  his  constituents.  And 
now,  in  what  way  ought  the  right  to  be  regulated  He  had  thought  that  the  best 
basis  for  it  was  residence,  and  the  possession  of  property,  whether  that  property 
were  real  or  personal.  He  only  differed  from  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  as  to 
the  mode  of  ascertaining  the  possession  of  these  requisites.  If,  said  Mr.  F.  you  fix 
an  amount  of  tax  as  your  test,  you  create  the  occasion  of  a  perpetual  contest  in  the 
Leo-islature,  as  to  raising  or  lowering  the  tax  with  a  vie\\  to  its  operations  on  the 
Right  of  Suffrage. 

r  have  drawn  up  an  amendment  which  it  is  my  purpose  to  offer  by  way  of  substi- 
tute, unless  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  is  disposed  to  avail  himself  of  it  and 
adopt  it  as  his  own — I  suggest  it  to  the  gentleman's  consideration  :  he  can  offer  it  or 
not,  as  he  thinks  best.    It  is  in  the  following  words  : 

"  And  to  all  free  male  white  citizens  of  twenty-one  years  of  age  and  upwards,  who 
shall  have  resided  two  years  within  the  State,  and  twelve  months  within  the  county, 
city  or  borough,  where  they  offer  to  vote,  and  shall  have  been  assessed  during  the 
preceding  year,  with  any  portion  of  the  revenue,  and  have  paid  the  same  :  Provided, 
That  no  capitation  tax  shall  ever  be  laid,  and  that  no  individual,  whose  taxable  pro- 
perty is  of  less  value  than  dollars,  shall  be  subject  to  any  property  tax  whatever." 

I  am  aware  (said  Mr.  Fitzhugh.)  of  one  difficulty  which  attends  this  plan  :  it  lies 
in  the  fact  that  all  property  is  not  assessed  ;  but  only  horses  and  negroes. 

But  this  difficulty  may  be  removed  by  the  Legislature  fixing  an  average  value  upon 
negroes  and  horses,  and  then  letting  them,  as  well  as  all  other  property,  be  entered  on 
the  commissioners'  books  by  its  value  alone.  These  books  then,  being  exhibited  at  the 
polls,  will  furnish  a  true  test  of  every  man's  Right  of  Suffrage,  so  far  as  property  is 
concerned.    His  residence  must  be  proved  in  a  different  manner. 

I  think  this  will  be  a  less  exceptionable  plan  than  fixing  a  definite  amount  of  tax. 
I  sud-D-est  it  to  him.  But  if  he  declines  offering  it,  and  his  amendment  shall  fail,  I 
purpose  to  offer  it  myself  at  some  future  period  of  our  proceedings. 

Mr.  Leigh  said  that  he  liad  expended — rather  wasted,  much  thought  and  labour  on 
the  subject,  and  he  could  assure  the  gentleman  from  Fairfax,  that  it  would  be  impos- 
sible to  accomplish  his  object  without  entering  into  specification,  and  that  very  mi- 
nutely :  without  this  there  was  no  way  of  avoiding  Universal  Suffrage.  If  that  was 
desired,  the  course  was  the  simplest  in  the  world :  a  few  words  would  answer  all  the 
purpose.  But  if  it  was  intended  to  fix  the  limit  of  suffrage  at  any  point  short  of  its 
universality,  specification  must  be  of  the  essence  of  the  scheme.  He  knew,  very 
well,  that  the  moment  a  definite  amount  of  tax  was  fixed,  the  R.ight  of  Suffrage  was, 
to  a  certain  extent,  put  within  the  power  of  the  Legislature,  who  might  give  the 
qualification  to  almost  whom  they  pleased  :  but  tlien  he  would  be  for  fixing  the  point 
of  requirement  so  high,  that  the  Legislature  would  not  go  up  to  it  for  the  sake  of 
conveying  the  right. 

He  believed,  if  the  blank  should  be  filled  with  the  sum  of  fifty  cents,  those  whom 
it  was  desirable  to  exclude  would  not  pa}^  that  amount  for  the  right  of  voting.  For, 
though  the  Right  of  Suffrage  had  been  represented  in  this  debate  as  the  verv  dearest 
privilege  of  man,  it  so  happened  that  there  were  few  in  the  world  who  were  willing 
to  pay  moneij  fov  it:  very  few.  But  JMr.  L.  added,  that  if  the  amendment  should 
prevail,  he  should  nevertheless  vote  against  the  whole  proposition  :  for  never,  while 
he  retained  his  senses,  would  he  under  any  name  or  form,  give  his  vote  to  confer  the 
Right  of  Suffrage  on  house-keepers,  which  was  in  effect  to  give  a  vote  A-o  his  land- 
lord, to  increase  the  power  not  of  the  poor,  but  of  the  rich.  Jt  always  had  operated 
to  increase  the  power  of  the  rich  man,  and  give  his  property  an  influence  over  others, 
not  such  as  legitimately  belonged  to  it,  (for  to  this  he  had  no  objection)  but  such  as 
worked  by  direct  corruption.  If  the  gentleman  from  Fairfax  would  fix  upon  any 
form  of  words  which  would  exclude  Universal  Suffrage  while  it  admitted  house- 
keepers to  vote,  he  should  be  ready  to  go  with  him  in  the  support  of  such  an  amend- 
ment;  but  he  could  not  but  believe  it  to  be  wholly  impracticable. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  asked,  if  the  gentleman  did  not  think,  that  the  amendment  he  had 
read,  covered  the  whole  ground,  except  providing  for  remaindermen  ? 

Mr.  Leigh  replied,  that  it  did  not  cover  such  freeholders,  as  did  not  reside  on  their 
own  land. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  replied,  that  he  had  intended  to  have  added  the  word  freeholder,  and 
would  still  do  it. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  that  the  controlling  argument  against  fixing  an  amount  of  tax, 
when  the  question  had  been  debated  in  Committee  of  the  Whole,  was,  that  it  enabled 
the  Legislature,  by  putting  the  tax  a  cent  below  the  constitutional  limit,  to  curtail  tlia 


640 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Right  of  Suffrage  at  pleasure — and  they  would  be  inclined,  probably  in  that  direction, 
rather  than  the  other,  inasmuch  as  they  were  themselves  for  the  most  part  freehol- 
ders. Was  it  not  a  little  extraordinary,  that  this  limitation,  which  it  was  said,  was  to 
prevent  throwing  power  into  the  hands  of  rich  men,  should  be  urged  by  that  side  of 
the  House,  who  were  for  throwing  the  entire  controul  of  the  Government,  into  the 
hands  of  rich  men  ?  They  urge  the  argument — tliey  feel  the  argument. 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  Mr.  Leigh's  amendment,  and  decided  in  the  nega^ 
tive,  by  ayes  and  noes,  as  follows  : 

Jlyes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh 
of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Fitzhugh,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caro- 
line, Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall, 
Prentis,  Grigsby,  Brancli,  Pleasants,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose  and  Coalter — 42. 

JVoes — Messrs.  Clopton,  Anderson,  Cofxman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy, 
Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Madison,  Mercer,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke, 
Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  INaylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George, 
M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby, 
Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson, 
Campbell  of  Bedford,  Clay  tor,  Saunders,  Townes,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Gordon, 
Thompson,  Massie,  Joynes,  Baj'ly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 54. 

Mr.  Stanard  moved  to  amend  the  resolution  by  inserting,  after  the  words  "  who 
shall  have  been  assessed"  (see  above.)  the  words,  "by  a  tax  on  property  owned  by 
him."  He  did  this,  that  the  Legislature  might  not  by  laying  some  trifling  tax  of  a 
cent,  or  a  few  cents,  introduce,  in  effect,  Universal  Suffrage. 

Mr.  Summers  opposed  the  amendment.  He  thought  the  gentleman's  fears  unrea- 
sonable. The  resolution  confines  the  Legislature  to  house-keepers  and  heads  of  fa- 
milies— beyond  that  limit  they  could  not  go  :  and  if  they  should  admit  all  the  house- 
keepers, and  all  the  heads  of  families  in  the  Commonwealth,  he,  for  one,  should  not 
consider  it  any  instance  of  their  misrule.  Such  a  clause  would  exclude  a  useful 
class  of  men  ;  he  meant  those  who  hired  slaves  in  performing  jobs  and  contracts.  The 
tax  on  the  slave  was  for  the  time  being  charged  upon  them ;  they  were  pro  hac  vice 
the  owners  of  the  slaves;  yet  they  could  not  vote  under  this  amendment. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  that  there  was  anotiier  class  whom  it  would  exclude,  viz  : 
shop-keepers  and  such  as  followed  any  business  which  required  a  license. 

Mr.  Stanard  said,  it  was  that  class  whom  he  wished  to  exclude.  He  wanted  to  keep 
out  shovv^-men  and  mountebanks.  Why  ought  the  shop-keeper  who  sells  foreign 
goods  to  be  admitted,  while  the  industrious  mechanic  who  sells  his  own  work  is  shut 
out.^  What  was  meant  by  the  term  head  of  a  family  ?  Did  it  mean  a  bachelor  who 
occupied  a  house  ?  or  must  he  have  a  wife.''  Must  he  have  children.''  Would  gentle- 
men go  into  the  question  of  colour  ?  It  was  not  an  uncommon  thing  to  call  a  trusty 
female  black  a  house-keeper.  He  wished  to  expel  this  loose  indefinite  phrase.  The 
Charter  of  Williamsburg  allowed  a  house-keeper  to  vote — and  it  became  a  vexed 
question  in  that  city.  He  related  an  anecdote  of  a  student  at  college  who  was  over 
twenty-one  and  had  his  study  in  an  out-building,  who  was  permitted  to  vote  as  a 
house-keeper.  Such  a  term  would  prove  a  mere  ball  of  contention,  and  would  be  in- 
terpreted in  one  way  or  in  another,  just  as  circumstances  at  the  moment  rendered  de- 
sirable. It  was  a  seeming  limitation,  but  would  operate  in  practice  as  none  :  it  was 
in  fact  and  in  truth,  nothing  else  but  Universal  Suffrage. 

Mr.  Doddridge  observed,  that  whenever  any  proposal  was  made  to  enlarge  tlie  ex- 
tent of  suffrage,  it  was  seen  to  be  met  by  a  declaration  of  the  danger  of  fraud:  but 
surely  the  same  danger  might  as  well  be  urged  on  the  other  side  against  Freehold 
Suffrage.    That  was  liable  to  as  many  and  as  great  frauds  as  the  other  plans. 

The  question  was  put  on  agreeing  to  Mr.  Stanard's  amendment,  and  decided  by 
ayes  and  noes  in  the  negative,  as  follows  : 

Jyes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Baldwin,  Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Pvandolph, 
Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Stanard,  Plolladay,  Griggs,  Pendleton,  Roane, 
Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green, 
Tazewell,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Pleasants,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose  and 
Coalter— 44. 

A''oes — Messrs.  Clopton,  Anderson,  Coffraan,  Harrison,  Williamson,  M'Coy,  Moore, 
Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Madison,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne, 
Cooke,  Powell,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  George,  M'Millan, 
Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan, 
Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Loyall, 
Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Gordon,  Thompson, 
Massie,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 52. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


641 


The  question  was  then  put  on  striking  out  the  fourtli  paragraph,  and  decided  by 
ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — 3Iessrs.  Barbour.  (President;)  Jones.  Leicrli  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield. Giles.  Brodnax.  Droragoole,  Alexander,  Goode.  Marshall.  Tyler,  2sichoias, 
Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Tre^vant,  Claiborne.  Urquhart,  Randolph.  Leigh  of 
Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Stanard,  Hoiladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Carohne,  Morris, 
Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  ^tlacrae.  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Grigsby, 
Prentis,  Branch,  Bates,  -^eale,  Rose  and  Coalter — 10. 

Ab&? — Messrs.  Clopton,  Anderson.  Coffman,  Harrison,  Willian3son,  Baldwin,  M'Coy, 
Moore,  Beirne.  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Madison,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Os- 
borne. Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  IVaylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendle- 
ton, George,  M'Millan.  Campbell  of  Washington.  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  ^lathews, 
Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridore.  Morcfan,  Campbell  of  Brooke, 
Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Clay  tor,  Saunders,  Townes."  CabeU,  Martin,  Stuart, 
Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Joynes,  Bayly.  L'pshur  and  Perrin — 56. 

So  the  fourth  clause,  admitting  house-keepers  to  vote,  was  retained. 

The  question  now  recurring  on  striking  out  the  proviso,  it  was  put  entire  as  follows  : 
Provided,  nexertheless.  That  the  Right  of  Sufirage  shall  not  be  exercised  by  any 
person  of  unsound  mind,  or  who  shall  be  a  pauper,  or  a  non-commissioned  officer, 
soldier,  sailor,  or  marine,  in  the  service  of  the  L  nited  States  ;  nor  by  any  person 
convicted  of  any  infamous  oiience  ;  nor  by  citizens  born  without  the  Commonwealth, 
unless  they  shall  have  resided  therein  for  five  years  immediately  preceding  the  elec- 
tion at  which  they  shall  olFer  to  vote,  and  two  years  preceding  tlie  said  election,  in 
the  county,  city,  borough,  or  election  district,  where  they  shall  offer  to  vote  (the 
mode  of  proving  such  previous  residence,  when  disputed,  to  be  prescribed  by  law.) 
and  shall  possess,  moreover,  some  one  or  more  of  the  quahfications  above  enu- 
merated." 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Claytor,  all  the  latter  part  of  the  proviso,  beginning  with  the 
words    nor  by  citizens  born  out  of  the  Commonwealth'"  to  the  end,  was  stricken  out. 

The  question  being  put  on  striking  out  the  residue,  it  was  negatived. 

Mr.  Leigh  now  offered  again  the  amendment  which  he  had  previously  moved  and 
withdrawn. 

But  on  some  conversation  as  to  its  details,  he  again  withdrew  it  to  allow  an  oppor- 
tunity to 

Mr.  Wilson,  who  moved  the  following  amendment : 

''Resolved,  That  every  free  white  male  citizen  of  this  Commonwealth,  of  the  age 
of  twenty-one  years,  and  upwards,  who  shall  have  resided  in  the  State  two  years, 
and  in  the  county  where  he  proposes  to  vote  one  year,  next  preceding  the  time  of 
offering  such  vote  :  who  shall  have  been  enrolled  in  the  militia,  if  subject  to  military 
duty  and  who  shall  have  paid  all  levies  and  taxes  assessed  upon  him.  or  his  property, 
for  the  year  preceding  that  in  which  he  offers  to  vote,  shall  have  a  right  to  vote  for 
members  of  the  General  Assembly  :  Prozided,  That  no  person  shall  be  permitted  to 
exercise  the  Ptight  of  Suffrage,  who  i?  a  pauper ;  who  is  of  unsound  mind:  who  has 
been  convicted  of  any  infamous  crime  :  or  who  shall  be  a  non-commissioned  officer 
or  private  soldier,  seaman  or  marine  in  tlie  regular  service  of  the  L  nited  States,  or  of 
tills  Commonwealth:  and  the  Legislature  shall  prescribe  the  mode  of  trying  and  de- 
termining disputes,  concerning  the  said  qualifications  of  voters,  whenever  the  right  of 
a  person  to  vote  shall  be  questioned.'' 

Mr.  Mercer  had  previously  moved  an  adjournment,  with  a  view  to  the  accommo- 
dation of  those  who  were  attending  under  severe  indisposition — but  it  was  lost — 
Ayes  43,  Noes  44. 

'Afler  some  farther  conversation  in  relation  to  Mr.  Leigh's  amendment,  and  his 
determination  to  re-cast  it  to  meet  a  suggestion,  that  was  made  to  him,  the  motion  to 
adjourn  was  renewed  by  Mr.  Summers  and  prevailed. 
The  House  thereupon  adjourned. 


THURSDAY,  December  17,  18:29. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Pvev.  Mr. 
Hoerner  of  the  Roman  Catholic  Church. 

RIGHT  OF  SUFFRAGE. 
And  the  question  being  on  a  resolution,  offered  by  ^Mr.  Wilson  of  Monongcdia,  as  an 
amendment  to  the  third  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  ^ 
]Mr.  Wilson  modified  liis  amendment,  so  as  to  read  as  follows,  viz  : 
Resolved.  That  everv  free  white  male  citizen  of  this  Commonwealth,  of  the  age 
of  twenty-one  years  and  upwards.,  who  shall  have  remained  in  the  State  two  years, 

81 


642 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


and  in  the  county  in  which  he  proposes  to  vote,  one  year,  next  preceding  the  time  of 
offering  such  vote;  who  shall  have  been  enrolled  in  the  militia,  if  subject  to  military 
duty  ;  and  who  shall  have  paid  all  levies  and  taxes,  assessed  upon  him  or  his  property, 
for  the  year  preceding  that  in  which  he  offers  to  vote,  [provided  such  taxes  shall  have 
been  demanded  of  him,]  shall  have  a  right  to  vote  for  members  of  the  General  As- 
sembly :  Provided,  That  no  person  shall  be  permitted  to  exercise  the  Right  of  Suf- 
frage, who  is  a  pauper ;  who  is  of  unsound  mind ;  who  has  been  convicted  of  any 
infamous  crime ;  or  who  shall  be  a  non-commissioned  officer  or  private  soldier,  sea- 
man or  marine  in  the  regular  service  of  the  United  States,  or  of  this  Commonwealth  ; 
and  the  Legislature  shall  prescribe  the  mode  of  trying  and  determining  disputes, 
concerning  the  said  qualifications  of  voters,  whenever  the  right  of  a  person  to  vote 
shall  be  questioned." 

And  on  this  question,  he  asked  the  ayes  and  noes,  which  were  ordered  accordingly. 

Mr.  Joynes  moved  to  amend  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Wilson,  by  striking  therefrom 
the  words,  "  all  levies  and  taxes,"  and  inserting  in  lieu  thereof,  the  words,  a  State 
or  county  tax,"  (so  as  to  require  some  tax  to  have  been  demanded  and  paid.) 

Mr.  Wilson  acceptejl  the  amendment  as  a  modification. 

Mr.  Claytor  suggested  the  addition  of  the  words,  "  or  Corporation,"  before  "  tax." 
Which  was  in  like  manner  accepted  by  Mr.  Wilson. 

After  some  conversation,  the  question  was  about  to  be  put  on  the  amendment,  as 
modified,  when 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  said,  that  it  must  be  obvious,  that  the  proposition  amounted  in  sub- 
stance to  Universal  Suffrage  :  for,  all  were  subject  to  a  capitation  tax.  He  considered 
this  capitation  tax,  as  one  of  the  most  injurious,  unequal,  and  oppressive  systems  of 
taxation,  that  ever  was  devised  ;  and  it  had  been,  from  the  first,  his  earnest  desire  to 
rid  the  State  of  it.  With  that  view,  he  moved  the  following  as  an  amendment  to  the 
amendment  of  Mr.  Wilson  : 

Provided,  That  no  capitation  tax,  either  for  State  or  county  purpose,  shall  here- 
after be  levied — and  that  no  individual,  whose  taxable  property  shall  be  of  less  value 
than  dollars,  shall  be  subject  to  any  property  tax  whatever." 

In  illustration  of  the  unequal  operation  of  the  capitation  tax,  Mr.  F.  referred  to  the 
case  of  an  individual,  in  his  own  county  of  Fairfax,  w^ho  was  one  of  the  wealthiest 
men  in  the  Commonwealth,  but  who  owned  no  negroes.  That  man's  contribution 
was  but  eighty  or  ninety  cents  under  this  tax.  He  wanted  to  see  the  State  rid  of  it, 
once  and  forever.  His  desire  was  that  no  man  should  enjoy  the  Right  of  Suffi-age, 
unless  he  possessed  some  property,  and  enough  to  shew  that  he  was  not  a  vagabond: 
he  had  not  fixed  upon  any  definite  sum — but  had  left  a  blank  to  be  filled  with  what 
the  Convention  might  deem  reasonable. 

Mr.  Cooke  said,  that  the  gentleman  from  Fairfax  was  mistaken,  in  supposing  that 
the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Monongalia,  amounted  to  Universal  Suffrage. 
There  were  returned  in  1828,  in  one  single  county  of  this  State,  between  six  and 
seven  hundred  persons  as  delinquent,  for  the  non-payment  of  their  county  levies, 
though  over  twenty-one  years  of  age.  Now,  if  the  delinquency  extended,  in  the  same 
proportion,  throughout  the  State,  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Monongalia, 
would  operate  to  exclude  twenty  thousand  of  these  insolvents  to  the  public.  It  could 
not  then  be  objected  to  as  Universal  Suffrage.  It  would  exclude  such  as  he  wished 
to  see  excluded — all  the  vagabonds  and  worthless  idlers.  He  did  not  mean  to  be  un- 
derstood as  saying,  that  all  those  thus  returned  delinquent,  were  idlers  and  vagabonds; 
but  the  class  of  delinquents  included  those  who  were  of  that  description. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  said,  that  as  matters  now  stood,  the  resolutions  admitted  a  man  to 
vote,  who  paid  any  county  tax,  of  any  sort,  or  to  any  amount  however  small.  If,  in- 
deed the  system  of  county  taxation  was  to  be  adopted,  and  the  county  taxes  were  to 
be  of  the  same  kind  as  are  now  laid  by  the  Legislature,  then  he  should  have  no  such 
strong  objection  to  it ;  but  that  was  not  the  fact — and  it  now  fell  but  httle  short  of 
Universal  Suffrage. 

Mr.  Leigh  enquired,  to  what  county  the  gentleman  from  Frederick  had  alluded, 
when  he  spoke  of  six  or  seven  hundred  delinquents  ? 
Mr.  Cooke  answered,  the  county  of  Loudoun. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  he  took  it  for  granted,  these  seven  hundred  delinquents  could  not 
have  been  residents  of  Loudoun.  He  had,  indeed,  once  heard,  that  there  were  eight 
hundred  paupers  in  that  county.  It  was  certainly  a  very  incredible  state  of  things  : 
possibly,  there  were  a  number  of  persons  there,  engaged  in  some  large  pubhc  work, 
(perhaps  on  the  river,)  who  went  off  before  the  county  levy  had  been  demanded.  He 
must  confess  himself  very  sceptical,  as  to  the  accuracy  of  the  statement. 

Mr.  Cooke  replied,  that  he  had  derived  the  knowledge  of  tlie  fact,  from  one  of  the 
members  of  the  Loudoun  Delegation.  Mr.  C.  said,  he  did  not  know  of  any  pubhc 
work,  going  on  in  that  county  in  1828,  and  he  did  not  know  why  the  proportion  of 
delmquents  there,  was  not  to  be  considered  as  extending  to  the  rest  of  the  State— he 
should  presume  so,  until  the  contrary  were  shewn.    All  knew  what  a  number  of 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


643 


young  men,  without  property,  there  were,  who  were  habitually  returned  delinquent, 
for  the  small  amount  of  a  county  levy.  He  took  this  as  prima  facie  evidence,  that 
they  were  not  good  citizens,  but  idle,  worthless  fellows.  The  amendment  of  the 
gentleman  from  Monongalia,  would  exclude  such  from  the  polls ;  and,  on  that  ac- 
count, he  was  in  its  favour. 

Mr.  Mercer  expressed  his  regret,  that  the  name  of  his  county  had  become  involved 
in  the  present  debate.  He  should  not  himself  have  introduced  it :  but  circumstanced 
as  he  was,  he  felt  called  upon,  by  his  duty  to  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  to  avow, 
that  it  was  from  himself,  that  gentleman  had  derived  the  information,  in  relation  to 
the  number  of  persons  returned  delinquent  in  a  single  year,  which  he  had  stated  to 
the  House,  as  having  been  communicated  to  him  by  one  ot  the  Loudoun  Delegation. 
He  held  in  his  hand  a  statement,  procured  on  another  occasion,  and  for  a  very  dif- 
ferent purpose,  which  contained  an  annual  return  of  the  number  of  such  delinquents, 
during  eight  consecutive  years,  and  w^hich,  with  the  permission  of  the  House,  h« 
would  now  read.    Mr.  M.  then  read  the  following,  viz  : 


In  1817, 

359  Delinquents, 

1818, 

454 

1819, 

343 

1820, 

469 

1821, 

572 

1822, 

758 

1823, 

757 

1824, 

831 

1825, 

831 

This  list  had  been  furnished  to  him  by  the  clerk  of  the  overseers  of  the  poor. 
There  had  once  been  a  poor-house  near  Leesburg,  in  which  he  had  found  on  particu- 
lar enquiry,  but  a  single  native  American,  the  rest  being  all  foreigners.  Yet  the  poor 
rates  in  Loudoun  were  very  onerous.  It  was  easy  to  account  for  the  fact  of  this 
iarge  number  of  delinquents.  The  persons  among  whom  they  were  found  consisted 
of  titheahlcs  from  sixteen  and  upward.  It  would  often  happen  that  a  father  who  was 
poor,  had  several  sons  subject  to  this  levy,  and  was  charged  not  only  with  his  own 
tax,  but  with  tiiat  of  his  sons.  Another  source  of  the  apparently  large  delinquency 
was  to  be  found  in  the  fact,  that  the  sheriff  did  not  duly  enforce  the  collection  of 
these  small  dues.  The  fees  allowed  for  collection  amounted  to  about  seven  per  cent., 
and  where  the  tax  was  small,  the  fees  were  so  trifling  that  that  officer  became  remiss 
in  hunting  up  persons  from  whose  contribution  he  should  receive,  perhaps,  but  seven 
or  fourteen  cents;  and  to  avoid  trouble,  he  returned  them  delinquent.  Mr.  M.  did 
not  believe  there  were  more  delinquents  in  Loudoun  than  in  any  other  portion  of  the 
State  containing  the  same  amount  of  population  :  he  could  not  believe  it;  because 
there  was  no  county  in  the  State  in  a  more  prosperous  condition — the  county  was 
large  and  wealthy,  but  the  estates  were  owned  in  very  equal  proportions  throughout. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  that  from  all  he  could  learn,  he  was  apt  to  believe  that  it  would  not 
be  a  possible  thing  to  frame  any  Constitution  whatever,  that  would  be  adapted  to  the 
residue  of  the  Commonwealth,  and  at  the  same  time  adapted  to  the  county  of  Lou- 
doun. It  stood  certainly,  in  a  most  extraordinary  situation.  One  of  its  Delegates 
had  informed  the  Convention  that  there  was  nobody  there  able  and  willing  to  dis- 
charge the  duties  of  a  justice  of  the  peace.  Another  told  the  Convention  that  it 
contained  seven  or  eight  hundred  persons  delinquent  in  the  payment  of  their  county 
dues,  and  this  was  owing  to  the  circumstance  that  there  were  so  many  persons  be- 
tween the  ages  of  sixteen  and  twenty-one,  whose  parents  w^ere  unable  to  pay  for 
them:  heads  of  families  that  were  vagabonds:  so  it  would  seem  that  there  must  be 
about  six  hundred  vagabond  house-keepers  and  heads  of  families  in  that  county. 

Mr.  Cooke  said,  tlie  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  if  alluding  to  him,  had  entirely 
misconceived  his  statement.  He  had  not  said  that  all  that  number  of  delinquents 
were  of  course  vagabonds ;  but  had  expressly  denied  any  such  opinion  :  all  he  had 
said  was,  that  it  included  many  worthless,  idle  fellows,  to  whom  he  believed  he  had 
applied  the  term  vagabond. 

Mr.  L.  resumed  :  Very  well,  the  gentleman  should  be  correctly  understood.  Lou- 
doun, then,  it  appeared,  had  that  number  of  delinquents,  and  a  gentleman  from  Lou- 
doun supposed,  that  many  of  them  were  under  twenty-one,  and  over  sixteen  years  of 
age,  w'ho  had  no  means  of  paying,  and  could  not  be  forced  by  the  sheriff  to  pay. 
Now,  he  begged  gentlemen  to  observe  how  this  operated  in  its  bearing  on  the  plan 
of  admitting  house-keepers  and  heads  of  famihes  to  the  right  of  voting.  That  class, 
it  seemed,  included  all  the  vagabonds.  The  sheriffs  of  Loudoun,  too,  were  prone  to 
make  false  returns :  they  were  in  the  habit  of  falsifying  their  returns,  to  save  trouble. 
Another  peculiarity  of  this  same  county  of  Loudoun,  was,  that  it  paid  a  very  heavy 
poor  rate,  yet  there  was  but  one  native  American  in  their  poor-house  :  of  course,  to 
absorb  all  this  heavy  amount  of  poor  rate,  it  must  have  more  poor  aliens  and  for- 
eigners in  it,  than  any  county  of  the  Commonwealth,  or  probably  in  the  Union  : 


644 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


how  else  could  it  require  this  onerous  poor  rate  ?  Taking  all  these  things  together — 
that  there  were  none  fit  and  wiUing  to  be  justices  of  the  peace — that  the  sheriffs  made 
false  returns — that  the  parents  were  not  able  to  pay  the  county  levy — that  there  was 
a  multitude  of  vagabond  foreigners  there — so  that  there  was  but  one  American  in  their 
poor-house — while  they  paid  a  very  heavy  poor-rate  :  Putting  all  these  facts  together, 
this  Convention  were  called  upon  to  adopt  a  provision  in  the  Constitution  on  the  hy- 
pothesis that  such  was  the  state  of  things  in  every  other  county  in  the  State  _!  He 
was  happy  to  be  able  to  say  from  his  own  personal  knowledge,  that  there  was  in  all 
this  part  of  the  Commonwealth  nothing  that  resembled  it  in  any  one  particular.  He 
felt  very  anxious  to  have  a  Constitution  that  would  suit  Loudoun,  but  he  could  not, 
with  that  view,  consent  to  take  this  as  a  just  account  of  any  other  county  in  the 
State.  He  was  very  sure  he  could  not  take  it  as  a  fair  representation  of  its  neigh- 
bouring counties,  Frederick  and  Jefferson.  He  judged  from  his  general  knowledge 
of  the  state  of  those  counties.  He  was  equally  sure  it  was  not  true  of  the  county  of 
Chesterfield,  though  that  lay  between  the  two  cities  of  Richmond  and  Petersburg, 
wliere  they  were  cursed  with  vagabonds  from  both.  It  was  not  true  of  Henrico,  of 
Norfolk,  of  Spottsylvania,  of  Stafford,  of  Dinwiddle,  or  of  Prince  George  :  although 
these,  too,  were  contiguous  to  towns  ;  Vvdiere  vice  usually  made  its  resort,  and  round 
the  skirts  of  which  it  was  usual  to  find  some  of  the  worst  members  of  society  :  those 
who  became  house-keepers  in  the  Penitentiary.  Such  persons  were  to  be  found  near 
towns  and  cities  in  ten  times  greater  numbers  than  in  any  other  part  of  the  Com- 
monwealth :  yet  even  there,  nothing  existed  like  the  unhappy  condition  of  Loudoun. 

Mr.  Leigh  concluded  by  observing,  that  the  gentleman  from  Fairfax  had  given  a 
true  account  of  the  nature  and  tendency  of  the  amendment :  it  went  to  introduce 
Universal  Suffrage  ;  and  if  it  did  not  actually  do  that,  it  provided  an  entering  wedge 
which  must  open  the  way  to  it. 

Mr.  Mercer  rose  in  reply.  He  said  that  if  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  had 
correctly  represented  what  he  had  before  said,  he  should  not  now  have  risen  to  trou- 
ble the  Committee.  He  had  not  said  there  were  no  paupers  in  Loudoun,  save  such 
as  were  in  the  poor-house.  Nor  did  he  state  that  the  poor-rates  were  levied  merely 
to  support  foreigners.  The  account  of  the  number  of  delinquents  he  had  given  from 
a  record  furnished  by  the  officer  he  had  before  named :  he  held  it  now  in  his  hand, 
and  it  was  at  the  service  of  any  gentleman  that  chose  to  examine  it.  He  submitted 
to  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  whether  it  contained  any  thing  that  furnished  a 
just  argument  against  the  character,  principles,  manners,  or  condition  of  the  people  of 
Loudoun.  He  had  not  said  that  the  sheriffs  of  Loudoun  were  in  the  habit  of  making 
false  returns ;  but  that  the  small  fee  of  seven  or  fourteen  cents  did  not  operate  as  an 
inducement  to  cause  them  to  use  diligence  in  searching  for  persons  who  OAved  a  tax 
of  one  dollar,  or  possibly  two,  to  the  county.  It  was  common  when  militia  fines  were 
collected,  as  all  gentlemen  must  recollect  who  had  served  on  court  martials,  (as  he 
had  done  as  often  as  ten  or  twelve  times,)  for  the  sheriff"  to  settle  up  his  accounts; 
and  if  gentlemen  would  go  into  an  investigation  of  the  facts,  they  would  find  as  many 
as  seven  hundred  insolvents  frequently  returned.  He  believed  that  the  number 
of  delinquents  would  be  found  even  greater  in  every  other  county  of  the  State  in 
proportion  to  its  population  than  in  Loudoun.  He  was  willing  to  rest  the  question  on 
that  issue.  He  inferred  this  from  the  equal  division  of  property  in  that  county.  Fo- 
reigners were  numerous,  it  was  true  :  they  constituted  the  mass  of  white  laboring 
poor.  Many  of  them  came  into  Loudoun,  as  being  the  first  county  over  the  line  in 
their  way  south  from  New  England  and  New  York.  There  existed  in  New  York  a 
society  for  the  express  purpose  of  distributing  its  surplus  labour  of  population  into  other 
parts  of  the  Union:  that  society  were  in  correspondence  with  various  persons  on  that 
subject. 

As  to  public  works,  there  had  been  none  prosecuted  in  the  county  of  Loudoun, 
either  at  the  date  of  those  returns,  or  since  :  but  he  had  no  doubt  that  the  fact  he  had 
commented  on,  would  be  found  to  be  very  common  throughout  the  Commonwealth. 
He  had  been  led  to  obtain  the  paper  from  v/hich  he  had  read  those  items,  for  the  pur- 
pose of  shewing  the  iniquity  (he  would  call  it  no  less)  of  the  prevailing  system  of 
capitation  tax,  for  the  preservation  of  the  roads,  and  the  maintenance  of  the  poor :  of 
calhng  on  the  poor  man  equally  with  the  rich,  for  the  contribution  of  his  time  and  la- 
bour to  improve  roads  which  he  trod  only  with  his  feet,  but  over  which  neither  hoof 
nor  wheel  of  his  ever  passed.  For  such  a  system,  thousands  receive  the  stamp  of  insol- 
vency. The  system  was  a  bad  one,  and  the  Legislature  ought  to  repeal  it.  The  fact 
he  had  stated  was  established  by  record  evidence  :  it  could  not  be  questioned — these 
six  or  seven  hundred  persons  ought  not  to  be  suffered  thus  to  stand  as  insolvents  by 
the  infliction  of  so  unjust  an  exaction.  If  gentlemen  had  any  doubts  as  to  what  he 
had  stated,  he  referred  them  to  public  records,  at  not  two  hundred  yards  distance 
from  the  spot  where  they  were  sitting.  Let  them  look  at  the  militia  returns  (which 
rested  on  the  same  principle,)  and  they  would  find  that  the  proportion  of  insolvents  in 
other  counties,  was  at  least  as  great  as  in  Loudoun.    All  the  poor  were  not  to  be 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


645 


found  in  the  poor-house  :  they  stayed  the  most  of  them  at  home,  and  were  partially 
sustained  by  their  relations,  though  in  part  a  burden  to  the  State.  It  was  such  as  had 
no  friends  or  relatives  to  take  care  of  tliem,  especially  foreigners,  that  were  obliged 
to  resort  to  the  poor-house.  In  Great  Britain  the  paupers,  he  believed,  amounted  to 
two  millions  :  but  the  greater  part  of  them  lived  at  their  own  homes  or  with  their  re- 
latives, and  received  partial  aid  from  the  poor  rates. 

He  had  made  these  statements,  because,  as  a  Representative  of  Loudoun,  he  felt  it 
his  duty  to  reply  to  the  remarks  which  had  been  made.  It  was  certainly  painful  to  be 
obliged  to  sit  and  listen  to  a  course  of  observations,  degrading  to  the  character  of  the 
county  from  v/hich  he  came,  and  which  seemed  intended  either  to  degrade  Loudoun, 
or  injure  the  cause  in  v/hich  she  was  engaged  :  but  he  knew  no  remedy. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  the  gentleman  had  commenced  his  remarks  by  saying,  "  that  if  he 
had  correctly  represented  what  he  had  said,  he  should  not  have  risen."  Mr.  L.  said, 
he  had  perfectly  understood  the  tone  and  temper  in  which  this  had  been  said,  and,  if 
it  were  parliamientary,  should  certainly  meet  it  in  a  similar  tone. 

Mr.  Mercer  here  said,  the  gentleman  was  entirely  mistaken  in  his  impression — 
nothing  had  been  meant,  in  tone  or  in  language,  to  give  any  just  offence. 

Mr.  Wilson  here  observed  to  the  Chair,  that  he  could  see  no  good  purpose  to  which 
this  debate  tended. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  he  did  not  understand  this  temper,  tone,  and  manner  of  treating 
him,  nor  should  he  submit  to  it  in  any  form  whatever.  How  could  the  gentleman 
tell  what  he  vras  going  to  say  ? 

The  Chair  told  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  to  proceed. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  he  had  not  misrepresented  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  or  any 
fact  which  that  gentleman  had  stated :  but  he  doubted  the  accuracy  (not  the  veracity) 
of  the  statements  which  he  had  made.  He  v^-as  not  wholly  ignorant  of  the  county  of 
Loudoun,  its  soil,  or  the  character  of  its  inhabitants — and  he  doubted  extremely  the 
accuracy  of  the  gentleman's  information,  and  I  have  strangely  misapprehended  the 
true  state  of  that  county,  if  it  will  not  be  seen  that  he  is  wholly  misinformed.  I  was 
about  to  shew  this.  The  gentleman  says  he  has  record  evidence ;  he  produces  a  cer- 
tificate from  the  clerk  of  the  overseers  of  the  poor ;  is  that  record  evidence  But  no 
matter.  If  this  is  true  of  Loudoun,  it  is  not  true  of  other  counties.  It  will  be  easy 
to  get  a  statistical  statement  to  test  this,  in  the  clearest  and  fullest  manner.  My  pur- 
pose was  to  shew  that  the  gentleman  from  Fairfax  was  right  in  the  account  he  gave 
of  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Monongalia — 1  think  he  was  right,  and  I 
shall  vote  against  all  such  principles,  come  they  from  what  quarter  they  may.  I 
would  gladly  vote  for  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Fairfax,  if  it  were  pos- 
sible for  me  to  do  so.  But  he  is  going  into  questions  of  finance,  and  it  requires  a 
vast  deal  more  time  duly  to  consider  such  a  measure,  than  has  been  allowed  me,  and 
the  profoundest  consideration,  before  I  can  vote  upon  it.  I  certainl}'  cannot  vote  for 
it  now.  I  shall  vote  against  it,  because  I  do  not  clearly  see  the  consequences  to  which 
it  may  lead:  and  I  shall  vote  against  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Monon- 
galia, because  I  believe  it  fairly  liable  to  the  objections  of  the  gentleman  from  Fairfax. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  would  ask  gentlemen  if  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Mo- 
nongalia must  pass,  whether  its  evil  v/ould  not  be  lessened  by  adopting  as  an  amend- 
ment to  it  what  he  had  proposed  ?  He  invited  the  attention  of  the  Convention  to  a 
single  fact  whicli  existed  in  his  own  county,  (and  he  presumed  it  might  be  considered 
as  an  average  county  of  the  State.)  In  the  year  1821,  out  of  |>  3,500  of  tax  paid  by 
that  county,  $  35  30  was  paid  by  five  hundred  and  thirty-five  of  its  inhabitants.  This 
was  sufficient  to  shew  the  vast  inequality  in  the  distribution  of  property.  Yet  by  the 
capitation  tax  all  were  called  to  pay  alike ;  and  all  who  did  so  pay  would  be  admitted 
by  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Monongalia.  He  presumed  that  such  as 
wished  to  restrain  the  Right  of  Suffrage  at  all,  would  vote  for  his  amendment,  rather 
than  that  gentleman's  proposition  without  it. 

The  question  being  on  Mr.  Fitzhugh's  amendment, 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  he  hoped  it  vv'ould  prevail.  He  had  always  been  of  opinion 
that  no  tax  ought  to  be  laid  on  a  poor  man  vvuthout  property.  He  considered,  that  the 
military  service  which  every  citizen  owed  to  the  State,  was  an  equivalent  fox  its  pro- 
tection of  his  personal  rights,  and  that  taxation  was  the  return  he  owed  for  the  pro- 
tection of  his  property.  If  he  had  no  property  to  be  protected,  he  ought,  in  justice, 
to  pay  no  tax.  He  considered  the  capitation  tax  not  only  as  very  unequal  and  op- 
pressive as  to  those  on  whom  it  was  laid,  but  extremely  inconvenient  in  its  effects 
upon  all  those  who  employed  hired  hands  in  any  business  whatever.  Such  an  em- 
ployer was  obliged  to  indemnify  his  hands  against  all  the  county  levies  of  every  sort, 
since  he  could  get  the  same  wages  in  another  State,  (lying,  perhaps,  within  sight) 
where  he  would  have  none  of  these  levies  to  pay.  A  poor  mechanic,  just  out  of  his 
apprenticeship,  before  he  had  time  enough  to  earn  money  to  pay  for  the  necessary 
tools  of  his  trade,  was  called  on  for  road  tax,  levies  and  poor-rates.  The  road-tax  was 
in  its  operation,  very  oppressive  upon  such  persons:  it  occupied  ten,  fifteen  and 


64G 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


twenty  days,  in  some  cases,  of  their  time,  besides  obliging  them  to  travel  miles  to  and 
from  the  place  where  the  work  was  to  be  done,  carrying  tlieir  tools  upon  their  shoulder. 
Near  where  he  resided  was  one  of  the  noblest  white  glass  factories  in  the  United  States, 
conducted  altogether  by  white  labor — all  the  hands  had  to  be  indemnified  against  the 
capitation,  because,  at  seven  miles  distance,  they  could  get  employment  in  Ohio  at  a 
similar  establishment,  and  at  the  same  wages.  It  would  be  very  simple  to  say,  that 
all  the  impositions  of  Government  for  the  protection  of  propertj',  should  be  laid  on  pro- 
perty only:  while  the  man  who  was  so  unfortunate  as  by  losses,  sickness,  (and  still 
more  unfortunate  as  by  his  own  irregular  habits)  to  be  reduced  to  poverty,  should  be 
subject  only  to  military  duty.  Mr.  D.  here  referred  to  the  regulations  in  some  other 
States  to  exempt  the  cow,  tools,  bed,  and  some  few  other  necessaries  of  a  family,  from 
seizure  by  the  sheriff.  He  asked  how  there  could  be  any  imposition  when  the  sheriff 
who  collected  the  tax,  and  who  knew  whether  it  had  been  paid  or  not,  was  himself 
the  presiding  officer  of  the  election ;  how  could  paupers  and  vagabonds  be  admitted  ? 
He  concluded  by  declaring,  that  he  came  to  the  Convention  determined  to  make  the 
best  effort  in  his  power  to  abolish  all  capitation  tax  in  Virginia  forever. 

Mr.  Cooke  demanded  a  division  of  Mr.  Fitzhugh's  amendment.  He  was  opposed 
to  the  capitation  tax  as  unjust  and  oppressive,  and  would,  therefore,  cheerfully  vote 
for  the  first  part  of  the  amendment,  but  he  could  not  for  the  latter  part  of  it,  which 
he  considered  as  an  impracticable  scheme. 

After  some  further  conversation,  the  amendment  was  divided.  And  the  question 
being  on  the  following  portion  of  it,  viz : 

"  Provided,  That  no  capitation  tax,  either  for  State  or  county  purpose,  shall  here- 
after be  levied :" 

Mr.  M"Coy  expressed  his  hearty  approbation  of  it,  and  asked  for  the  ayes  and  noes, 
which  were  ordered. 

Mr.  Green  now  moved  to  amend  it  by  striking  out  the  word  "  State"  before  "  tax," 
ibut  the  motion  could  not  be  received,  as  there  was  already  an  amendment  to  an 
amendment,  and  the  rules  of  order  did  not  permit  them  going  to  a  third  degree. 

The  question  was  now  taken  on  the  first  clause  of  Mr.  Fitzhugh's  amendment,  and 
decided  in  the  affirmative  by  ayes  and  noes,  as  follows : 

^yes — Messrs.  Clopton,  Anderson,  Coffnmn,Harrison,  Williamson,  Johnson, M'Coy, 
Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke, 
Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd.  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington, 
Byars,  Cloyd,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Sunnners,  See,  Doddridge,  Mor- 
gan, Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Camp- 
bell of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Gordon,  Massie,  Joj'nes 
and  Upshur — 50. 

JVoes — Messrs.  Barbour  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Baldwin,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madi- 
son, Stanard,  Holladay,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caro- 
line, Morris,  Garnett,  Chapman,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes, 
Pleasants,  Thompson,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Bayly  and  Perrin — 44. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh,  concluding  from  the  aspect  of  things  that  the  second  part  of  his 
amendment  could  not  succeed,  withdrew  it.. 

The  question  then  recurring  on  Mr.  Wilson's  amendment,  to  the  resolution  of  the 
Committee, 

Mr.  Stanard  opposed  it  with  earnestness,  as  going  to  the  whole  length  of  putting 
the  Right  of  Suffrage  into  the  controul  of  the  Legislature,  nay  of  every  corporation 
in  the  State,  For,  as  the  term  was  indefinite,  any  company  of  incorporated  persons 
who  chose  to  lay  a  contribution  on  their  stockholders  in  wliich  the  State  had  no  in- 
terest at  all,  could  thereby  convey  to  them  the  Right  of  Suffrage.  He  dwelt  much 
on  the  inconsistency  of  allowing  a  man  who  had  taxes  from  the  State  and  from  his 
county  of  very  unequal  amount,  to  omit  paying  the  larger  amount,  and  be  allowed  to 
vote  on  the  very  smallest :  paying  a  tax  of  one  cent  on  a  head  of  cattle  made  him  a 
voter,  though  he  might  be  delinquent  on  other  taxes  to  the  amount  of  dollars.  Nay, 
even  the  one  cent  might  be  paid  for  him  by  others,  or  he  might  vote  if  it  had  never 
been  demanded  of  him.  So  if  the  statement  of  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun  was 
correct,  the  sheriff  of  that  county  by  demanding  or  not  some  small  county  levy  might 
exclude  or  admit  some  seven  or  eight  hundred  votes.  But  allowing  for  such  parts  of 
these  delinquents  as  were  under  twenty-one  years,  he  would  reckon  them  at  six  hun- 
dred. These  six  hundred  persons  would  be  voters  or  not  at  the  pleasure  of  the  sheriff, 
and  would  turn  any  election.  If  it  were  right  to  extend  the  Right  of  Suffrage  so  as 
to  embrace  these,  still  they  ought  not  to  be  placed  so  as  to  depend  on  the  partiality  or 
passions  of  the  officer  who  conducts  the  election. 

Mr.  Coalter  observed,  that  the  high-sheriff  usually  conducted  the  elections,  but  it 
was  not  that  officer  but  his  deputies  who  collected  the  county  levies,  so  that  the  high- 
sheriff  would  Jiot  be  able  to  say  whether  the  person  claiming  to  vote  had  paid  his  dues 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


G47 


or  not.  AVhat  w  uld  a  candidate  have  to  say  to  the  voters  at  sncli  an  election .' 
•■  Mv  20od  fellows,  go  up  to  the  polls  to  vote  :  'l  will  see  that  voux  levies  are  all  paid : 
I  can  not,  offer  vou  ajiv  s^os.  but  if  you  go  up  there,  you  will  see  persons  drinking  and 
vou  will  help  yourselves.  ^  Do  you  go  and  vote  for  such  a  man,  and  here  is  eighteen 
pence  to  pay  your  tax."'  He  said  that  thus  it  would  certainly  be.  should  the  amend- 
ment be  adopted.    It  tended  to  corruption. 

Mr.  Doddridge  replied,  that  the  State  tax  and  the  county  levies  would  have  been 
demanded  durincrthe  summer  preceding.  It  would,  therefore,  be  immaterial  whether 
the  election  should  be  conducted  by  the  high-sheriff  or  his  deputy.  The  taxes  would 
have  been  received  in  the  County  Court.  He  thought,  there  was  no  more  danger  of 
this  Rig'ht  of  Suffrage  being  abused  than  the  freehold  Right  of  Suffrage :  all  gentle- 
men knew  the  milUons  of  acres  of  fictitious  land  on  which  freehold  votes  were  given. 
These  titles  were  proverbially  known — and  were  called  tax  titles,  and  sometimes 
Penitentiarv  titles.    There  would  be  no  more  danger  in  the  one  case  than  in  the  other, 

Mr.  Stanard  said  the  delinquents  were  returned  in  the  fail :  there  were  six  months 
before  the  election,  during  v.-iiich  these  arrearages  might  be  paid  up.  He  denied  that 
the  return  of  the  sheriff,  that  the  dues  had  not  been  paid,  was  any  evidence  that  they 
bad  been  demanded  :  it  would  be  set  aside  by  the  sheriff's  receipt,  or  the  party  might 
have  paid  afterwards.    This,  therefore,  was  no  guaranty  at  all. 

3Ir.  Fitzhugh  said  that  he  should  vote  for  the  amendment  as  it  had  been  amended, 
though  it  did  not  go  as  far  as  he  wished. 

Mr.  Ciaytor  insisted  that  there  was  no  just  distinction  to  be  taken  between  corpo- 
ration taxes  and  others,  both  being  laid  by  the  same  authority  and  for  the  same  ob- 
jects.   They  were  equally  burdensome,  and  should  convey  equal  rights. 

Mr.  Jovnes,  with  a  view  to  obviate  the  objection,  that  the  election  would  be  in  the 
liands  of 'the  sheriff,  moved  to  strike  out  the  words  provided  such  tax  shall  have 
been  demanded." 

Mr.  Wilson  accepted  this  as  a  modification. 

Mr.  Mercer  objected  to  this,  and  opposed  the  alteration.  The  clause  had  been  in- 
serted in  the  Legislative  Committee  by  a  large  majority.  He  referred  to  the  case 
of  the  countv  of  Tazevrell  which  was  returned  on  the  commissioner's  books  as  con- 
tain'mg  three' millions  of  acres  of  land,  and  by  its  dimensions  could  not  by  possibility 
contain  more  than  six  hundred  thousand  acres.  It  was.  therefore,  made  to  contain 
Jive  times  its  real  quantity  of  land.  He  referred  to  a  case  on  the  same  books  where 
the  same  tract  of  land  was  charged  three  times  over,  and  neither  time  to  the  true 
owners.   To  rely  on  such  returns  would  be  most  xinwise. 

The  question  being  put  on  the  motion  of  Mr.  Joynes  to  strike  out  the  proviso,  it 
was  carried. 

The  question  being  then  put  on  agreeing  to  Mr.  TVHson's  amendment,  as  amended 
by  Mr.  Fitzhugh,  it  was  lost  by  a  tie,  viz  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Anderson.  Coffman.  Harrison,  "VTilliamson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne, 
Smith.  Miller,  Baxter.  Mercer.  Fitzhugh,  Henderson.  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Ma- 
son of  Frederick.  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  George.  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Wash- 
ington. Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan.  Laidley,  Summers, 
See,  Doddridge,  Morgan.  CampbeU  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Clav- 
tor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Stuart,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Jonyes,  Bayly  and  Up- 
shur— i7. 

yots — Messrs.  Barbour.  (President.)  Jones.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax.  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode.  Marshall.  Tyler.  ]Sicholas, 
Clopton,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  L'rquhart,  Leigh  of  Halifax.  Logan, 
Venable,  Madison.  Stanard.  Holladay,  Griggs.  Pendleton.  Roane.  Taylor  of  Caroline, 
Morris.  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper.  Scott,  Macrae,  Green.  Tazewell,  Lo}  aU,  Pren- 
tis,  Grigsby,  Branch.  Townes,  JSIartin,  Pleasants,  Bates,  Neale,  Pcose,  Coalter  and 
Perrin — 47. 

So  the  amendment  was  rejected. 

Mr.  Doddridge  now  moved  the  following  : 

*•  Or  who  shall  have  resided  within  the  Commonwealth  two  years,  and  for  the  last 
year  within  the  county,  city,  borough  or  district,  where  lie  offers  to  vote:  and 
who  during  the  last  mentioned  period  shall  have  actually  paid  a  revenue  tax  legally 
assessed  on  him — and  hencefjrth  there  shall  be  no  capitation  tax  [except  on  slaTvesj 
assessed  or  collected  either  for  State  or  county  purposes."' 

Mr.  Mercer  suggested  a  proviso,  "  that  it  had  been  demanded  of  him" — which  weis 
accepted  by  the  mover. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  he  had  not  been  called  on  to  pay  this  capitation  tax  in  twelve 
vears — and  he  doubted  not  the  same  thing  was  frequent  throughout  the  Common- 
wealth. He  had  formerly  been  chairman  of  the  Finance  committee  in  the  House  of 
Delegates,  and  the  fact  was  then,  he  believed,  universally  admitted. 

ISIr.  Doddridge  said,  his  amendment  differed  from  that  of  the  member  from  Mo- 
nongalia, in  not  admitting  the  payment  of  county  or  corporation  tax  as  a  qualification. 


648 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  Venable  admitted  that  a  capitation  tax  was  improper  in  its  principle,  but  ob- 
jected to  the  exception  Mr.  D.  had  introduced  in  relation  to  slaves.  He  accepted 
the  principle  the  gentleman  had  on  a  former  occasion  advocated,  that  each  individual 
and  each  county  and  district,  should  be  required  to  pay  in  proportion  to  its  ability. 
He  then  put  the  case  of  two  adjacent  counties  of  equal  ability  in  popuMion  and  soil, 
but  one  of  these  having  half  its  population  consisting  of  blacks :  tJie  exception  would 
cause  that  county  to  pay  double,  though  their  ability  to  pay  was  the  same. 

Mr.  Doddridge  struck  out  that  feature  in  his  amendixient. 

Mr.  Scott  moved  to  amend  the  amendment,  by  adding  a  clause  providing  that  the 
tax  should  not  be  less  than  one  dollar. 

Mr.  Doddridge  asked  the  ayes  and  noes  on  this  amendment. 

Mr.  Nicholas  briefly  advocated  it  as  necessary  to  prevent  Universal  Suffrage.  If 
any  tax  was  to  be  required,  let  it  have  some  reality.  The  very  requisition  of  the  Yi'<i-yr 
ment  of  a  tax  went  on  the  idea,  that  residence  alone  was  not  sufficient  evidence  of  at- 
tachment to  the  community. 

Mr.  Townes  said,  he  had  been  in  favour  of  an  extension  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage, 
and  had  hitherto  voted  in  its  favor :  but  seeing  how  far  it  was  now  attempted  to  be 
carried,  he  should  support  Mr.  Scott's  motion. 

Mr.  Leigh  referred  to  an  effort  which  had  once  been  successful  in  the  Legislature, 
to  lay  a  tax  on  man's  antient  ally,  the  dog  ;  and  it  had  been  advocated  as  going  to  in- 
crease the  stock  of  sheep  :  should  the  present  amendment  succeed,  it  would  go  to  in- 
crease not  the  stock  of  sheep,  but  the  stock  of  voters.  The  payment  of  a  dog  tax 
would  make  a  voter  at  once. 

Mr.  L.  said,  he  was  now  perfectly  satisfied  that  until  the  great  question  of  the  hasis 
of  Representation  should  be  settled,  all  the  principles  respecting  property  which  had 
hitherto  been  held  sacred,  would  be  in  jeopardy. 

Mr.  Scott  said,  he  should  not  take  any  part  in  the  debate.  He  had  risen  only  to 
prevent  misapprehension.  He  said  he  was  among  those  who  thought  that  Govern- 
ment should  be  based  upon  property.  Government  was  meant  for  the  protection  of 
property:  this  was  its  chief  object:  and  all  who  had  any  share  in  the  Government 
ought  to  be  possessors  of  property,  being  that  on  which  Government  was  to  act.  He 
would  lay  the  foundation  of  Government  in  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  based  upon  pro- 
perty (not  wealth,)  the  best  index  of  this  was  the  payment  of  taxes — it  was  the  simplest 
and  the  easiest  proof.  He  would  make  the  property  qualification  so  small  as  to  in- 
clude the  bulk  of  society.  He  should  exclude  the  monied  aristocracy  from  ruling  the 
country  :  and  attain  all  the  just  ends  of  a  popular  Government.  He  should  then  con- 
sider himself  as  having  gone^  far  enough.  He  considered  it  as  the  great  secret  to 
know  where  to  stop.  On  these  principles  he  had  voted  against  those  propositions 
which  he  thought  went  too  far,  in  order  to  secure  the  popular  character  of  a  Govern- 
ment. 

Mr.  S.  protested  against  any  desire  to  take  the  Right  of  Suffrage  from  any  who  now 
enjoyed  it  3  not  even  if  their  freeholds  were  merely  nominal.  But  he  was  for  exclu- 
ding such  persons  as  were  neither  freeholders,  landholders  nor  housekeepers. 

Mr.  Doddridge  withdrew  his  demand  for  the  ayes  and  noes,  declaring  his  intention 
to  vote  against  Mr.  Scott's  amendment,  but  still  to  vote  for  his  own,  should  that  not 
prevail. 

Mr.  Stanard  opposed  Mr.  D's  amendment,  as  going  beyond  all  the  northern  States 
in  its  latitude  of  Suffrage,  and  being  equalled  onJy  in  the  new  States  where  Suffrage 
was  universal.  In  Massachusetts  the  payment  of  a  capitation  tax  of  ^  1  50  was  re- 
quired :  that  now  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier,  did  not  go  so  far;  it  did 
not  require  any  capitation  to  filter  the  community.  This  was  in  terms  the  amend- 
ment which  had  been  offered  by  Mv.  Summers  in  Committee  of  the  Whole,  and  re- 
jected without  a  count.  It  was  certainly  better  to  make  no  requirement  of  a  tax  at 
all,  than  to  hold  out  these  inducements  to  petty  frauds. 

Mr.  Mercer  was  in  favour  of  almost  any  system  of  Suffrage  which  excluded  taxa- 
tion. He  corrected  Mr.  Stanard  as  to  Massachusetts — they  had  no  taxes,  except  on 
auctions  and  bank  stock ;  the  latter  a  very  heavy  one,  being  one  per  cent,  on  their 
capitals.  Once  in  seven  years  they  laid  another,  merely,  however,  to  secure  to  Bos- 
ton its  due  representation,  (which  was  regulated  by  this  test.)  Mr.  M.  went  into  a 
calculation  to  shew  that  an  individual  who  paid  two  cents  on  land  might  vote,  while 
he  who  owned  no  land  was  required  to  pa}^  $  1. 

Mr.  Scott  said;  there  was  no  congruity  to  the  principles  of  the  Bill  of  Rights  in  such 
an  amendment.  The  Bill  of  Rights  required  evidence  of  permanent  interest  in  the 
community  :  twenty-five  acres  of  land  was  admitted  as  furnishing  this  evidence,  not 
from  its  value,  but  from  the  permanence  of  its  nature.  So  leaseholders  had  been  ad- 
mitted, but  not  for  the  amount  of  tax  they  paid;  their  residence  and  the  nature  of  the 
property  were  the  considerations.  So  of  a  housekeeper;  it  was  not  the  tax  he  paid, 
but  his  fixed  location  was  supposed  (not  by  him)  to  furnish  this  evidence.  But  here 
was  an  amendment  which  declared  that  a  man  who  paid  one  cent  tax  on  a  dog,  shmild 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


649 


be  admitted  to  vote.  He  could  never  receive  this  a,s  any  evidence  at  all.  Such  a 
man  might  be  here  to-day  and  gone  to-morrow. 

Mr.  Morgan  said,  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Scott  seemed  rather  m.ore  like  a  restric- 
tion in  principle  on  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  than  an  extension.  [Mr.  Scott  observed 
that  his  amendment  would  not  apply  to  any  of  the  other  qualifications  so  as  to  hmit 
them.]  Mr.  M.  Very  well.  Then  the  freeholders  are  not  required  to  pay  a  tax  before 
voting,  nor  the  leaseholders  either — they  vote  whether  their  taxes  be  paid  or  not.  The 
housekeeper,  who  is  also  a  head  of  a  family,  may  vote  after  the  payment  of  a  tax  of 
one  or  two  cents — indeed  of  one  mill,  if  it  shall  be  a  part  of  the  revenue  of  the  State. 
But  the  man  whose  freehold  is  not  of  the  value  fixed  by  the  Convention,  or  who  shall 
not  be  a  housekeeper  and  head  of  a  family,  must,  by  the  amendment,  pay  one  dollar. 
If  this  sum  be  agreed  to,  it  will  render  the  amendment  almost  nugatory.  There  would 
be  very  few  persons,  not  coming  within  some  of  the  other  qualifications,  who  would 
own  property  sutficient  upon  which  to  levy  so  large  a  sum.  It  would  be  confined 
mainly  to  merchants  and  shopkeepers,  whose  license  might  be  sufficient.  Accordino[ 
to  the  present  rate  of  taxes,  it  would  require  that  a  man  should  own  ten  horses,  or 
three  taxable  slaves,  upon  wliich  to  raise  a  sum  sufficient  to  get  him  a  vote.  This,  he 
thought,  too  unequal.  His  object  in  rising,  was  to  ask  for  the  ayes  and  noes.  They 
were  ordered  accordingly,  and  being  taken,  stood  as  follows  : 

Ayes — ^lessrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield. Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler.  Nicholas, 
Clopton,  Johnson,  Trezvant,  CFaiborne,  Urquhart,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable, 
Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Griggs,  Pendleton,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline.  Morris, 
Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis, 
Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Bates,  I\eale,  Rose,  Coalter  and  Per- 
rin-^G. 

Xoes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Cofl&aan,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy,  Meore, 
Beirne,  Smith.  ]Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson.  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell, 
Mason  of  Frederick,  ]\aylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Wash- 
ington. Byars.  Cloyd.  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See, 
Doddridge,  Morgan.  Campbell  of  Brooke,  ^Vilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor, 
Saunders,  Cabell,  Stuart.  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Joynes,  Bayly  and  Upshur — 48. 

So  Mr.  Scott's  amendment  was  rejected. 

Mr.  Bayly  now  moved  to  strike  out  all  that  part  of  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Dod- 
dridge, which  referred  to  a  capitation  tax. 

Mr.  Doddridge  having  thereupon  moved  to  amend  his  amendment,  so  as  to  read 
*'  except  on  free  negroes  or  mulattoes,"' 

Mr.  Bayly  observed  that  the  Right  of  Suffrage  being  very  much  extended,  he  con- 
sidered that  there  was  no  probability  of  the  Legislature  laying  a  capitation  tax,  except 
on  extraordinary  occasions,  which  in  the  history  of  a  country  might  occur  :  he  in- 
stanced the  late  war,  when  Great  Britain  demanded  the  Ohio  river  should  be  the 
boundary  line  between  her  possessions  and  the  United  States,  and  that  all  West  of 
that  river  should  be  ceded  to  her.  In  such  a  war,  every  man  ought  to  fight  and  pay  ; 
and  a  capitation  tax,  in  such  a  case,  ought  to  be  resorted  to.  But,  as  the  General 
Assembly  heretofore,  when  the  Right  of  Suffrage  was  limited  to  the  freehold,  had 
never  resorted  to  such  a  tax,  there  was  no  dann-er  now  that  they  ever  would,  except 
on  an  emergency  that  would  justify  it.  But  there  were  many  men  in  the  country 
who  lived  upon  their  money,  stocks,  salaries,  yearly  wages  and  professions,  who 
would  be  reached  by  no  other  than  a  capitation  tax:  and  there  was  another  kind  of 
population  very  expensive  to  the  county  and  parish  revenue— free  negroes — who  could 
be  taxed  only  by  their  person  ;  but  exempt  them  from  taxes,  and  you  give  them  a  pre- 
mium to  remain  in  the  country,  and  thereby  increase  the  parish  and  county  taxes. 
He  hoped  the  motion  he  made  would  prevail. 

]Mr.  Doddridge's  amendment  in  relation  to  free  negroes  and  mulattoes,  was  nega- 
tived— Ayes  37T 

He  then  demanded  the  ayes  and  noes  on  Mr.  Bayly's  motion,  and  they  weie  or- 
dered accordingly. 

Mr.  ]\Iercer  was  in  favor  of  the  amendment.  He  asked,  if  the  gentleman  froni 
Brooke  seriously  apprehended  that  the  Legislature  of  Virginia  would  resort  to  a  capi- 
tation tax,  except  in  case  of  some  great  public  emergency  and  danger?  There  might 
be  situations  of  great  extremity,  when  such  a  measure  would  be  justifiable.  Now, 
the  taxes  on  brown  sugar,  on  coarse  teas,  on  salt,  on  coarse  cottons,  and  some  other 
articles  of  general  necessity,  were  in  principle  capitation  taxes  :  would  he  wish  to  pro- 
hibit taxation  on  these  in  case  of  great  emergency In  case  of  invasion,  it  might 
happen  that  the  Federal  arm  would  not  be  strong  enough  to  afibrd  the  necessary  pro- 
tection :  ought  the  State  thus  to  be  trammelled  f 

The  question  was  taken  and  decided  in  the  affirmative  by  ayes  and  noes  ag  fol- 
lows : 

82 


650 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Aijes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dronigoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Baldwin,  Miller,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable, 
Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Mercer,  Henderson,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of 
Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett, 
Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes, 
Pleasants,  Thompson,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Bayly  and  Perrin — 53. 

JS'ocs — Messrs.  Clopton,  Anderson,  Coflfman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Johnson, 
M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Baxter,  Fitzhugh,  Osborne,  Pendleton,  George, 
M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  By ars,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See, 
Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Ma- 
crae, Green,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Gor- 
don, Joynes  and  Upshur — 40. 

So  the  clause  was  stricken  out. 

The  question  now  recurring  on  Mr.  Doddridge's  amendment  as  amended, 

Mr.  Stanard  moved  the  same  proviso  before  moved  by  Mr.  Scott,  but  leaving  a 
blank  for  the  amount  of  tax. 

The  ayes  and  noes  being  demanded  by  Mr.  Nicholas,  were  ordered  accordingly, 
and  being  taken,  stood  as  follows: 

Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Clopton,  Johnson,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable, 
Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Griggs,  Pendleton,  Roane,  Taylor 
of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell, 
Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose, 
Coalter  and  Perrin — 48. 

Koes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Wilhamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy,  Moore, 
Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Mason  of  Frederick, 
Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd, 
Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan, 
Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Stuart, 
Gordon,  Thompson,  Joynes,  Bayly  and  Upshur — 45. 

Mr.  Naylor  moved  to  amend  the  amendment,  by  striking  out  "  revenue,"  and  in- 
serting "  county  tax  ;"  but  it  was  negatived. 

7^he  question  being  on  the  amendment  as  amended, 

Mr.  Johnson  moved  to  strike  out  the  words  "  if  such  tax  shall  have  been  demanded 
thinking  it  a  sufficient  objection  if  there  were  none  other,  that  it  opened  a  subject  of 
perpetual  disputes,  which  there  were  no  means  of  settling.    This  motion  prevailed 
without  a  division. 

The  question  was  now  taken  on  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Doddridge,  as  amended  by 
Mr.  Stanard,  when  it  was  rejected  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Clopton,  Anderson,  Coifman,  Williamson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne, 
Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Mason 
of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington, 
Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Dod- 
dridge, Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  W^ilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saun- 
ders, Cabell,  Stuart,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Joynes,  Bayly  and  Upshur — 46. 

Noes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Harrison,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Leigh  of  Hahfax,  Logan, 
Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Griggs,  Pendleton,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline, 
Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Pren- 
tis, Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter  and 
Perrin — 47. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke,  now  moved  to  amend  the  resolution  of  the  Legislative 
Committee,  by  inserting  before  the  proviso,  the  following  words : 

"  And  to  every  free  white  male,  a  native  of  this  Commonwealth,  and  a  resident 
therein,  of  the  age  of  twenty-one  years  and  upwards,  who  shall  have  resided  one  year 
within  the  county,  city,  borough,  or  election  district,  in  which  he  offers  to  vote,  and 
who  shall  have  been  assessed,  and  shall  have  paid  either  county  or  State  tax." 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Campbell,  the  ayes  and  noes  were  ordered  on  this  amendment. 

Mr.  M'Coy  moved  to  amend  the  amendment,  by  striking  out  "  one  year,"  and  in- 
serting in  lieu  thereof,    two  years." 

Which  was  accepted  by  Mr.  Campbell  as  a  modification. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  that  the  distinguishing  feature  of  this  amendment  was,  that  it  gave 
the  Right  of  Suffrage  to  native  born  citizens  of  the  Commonwealth.  That  point  had 
been  fully  discussed  in  Committee  of  the  Whole.  Its  effect  would  be  to  deny  to  the 
citizens  of  our  sister  States  an  equal  footing  with  our  own  citizens,  though  they  re- 
moved permanently  to  reside  within  this  Commonwealth.    There  was  one  very  sin- 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


651 


^ular  operatioii  it  would  have  on  the  Southern  border  of  the  State.  The  line  separa- 
ting Virginia  and  North  Carolina  was  only  a  "  chopped  line"  as  it  was  called — that  is, 
an  imaginary  line,  being  by  law  a  parallel  of  latitude.  This  line  often  ran  through 
the  heart  of  a  man's  plantation.  A  citizen  of  Virginia  might  ha  ve  a  son  born  on  that 
,|>art  of  his  estate  lying  south  of  the  line,  yet  this  son,  being  his  heir,  would  be  exclu- 
ded so  far  as  this  resolution  went,  from  a  right  to  vote  in  Virginia.  Mr.  L.  disclaimed 
the  slightest  jealousy  of  the  citizens  of  other  States,  and  thought  they  ought  to  be  re- 
ceived (and  so  should  all  persons  naturalized)  as  if  they  had  been  natives  of  the  soil. 

Mr.  Campbell  said,  that  he  did  not  consider  naturalized  citizens  as  less  meritorious 
than  others,  but  he  had  introduced  nativity  as  the  strongest  of  all  evidence  of  attach- 
ment to  the  Commonwealth :  he  could  not  get  the  right  extended  as  far  as  he  wished  : 
■but  this  v/ould  give  it  some  extension. 

Mr.  Giles  said,  that  while  he  could  not  find  words  to  express  his  apprehension, 
arising  from  the  rage  he  saw  prevailing,  (if  gentlemen  would  pardon  the  term — it  was 
really  the  only  appropriate  one,)  for  extending  the  Pught  of  Suffrage  to  universality, 
he  could  not  but  be  amused  at  the  progress  of  those  who  were  under  the  influence  of 
this  rage — (he  again  begged  pardon  for  the  term.)  He  had  observed  the  scene  from 
ita  commencement.  One  proposition  after  another  had  been  put  down  ;  and  still,  with 
a.  perseverance  which  was  truly  astonishing,  and  no  doubt  very  praiseworthy,  other 
^substitutes  were  instantly  suggested,  with  the  smallest  conceivable  difference  :  some- 
times so  small,  that  he  was  puzzled  to  perceive  any  at  all.  It  seemed  as  if  gentlemen 
were  really  running  as  competitors,  and  trying  their  utmost,  to  see  which  should  get  be- 
fore the  other,  toward  a  goal,  which  he  must  ever  consider  as  threatening  and  fatal  to 
the  liberties  of  mankind.  He  wished  to  ask  gentlemen,  if  they  were  not  sensible  of 
the  force  of  this  competition,  and  whether  it  was  not  really  like  to  drive  them  beyond 
their  own  wishes  ?  None  of  those  gentlemen  avowed  any  intention  to  introduce  Uni- 
•versal  Suffrage — yet  they  were  striving  with  each  other,  in  propositions,  which  went 
so  near  it,  that  nobody  could  distinguish  between  them.  There  was  an  important  ob- 
jection to  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Brooke.  How  was  this  nativity  to 
be  proved .''  Must  the  records  be  brought  up  to  the  polls  If  not,  how  was  the  ques- 
tion to  be  tried.''  A  voter  presented  himself,  and  said,  I  am  a  native  born  citizen  of 
the  Commonwealth  :"  how  would  it  be  tried.'  Would  the  gentleman  have  a  jury  sum- 
moned ? 

He  had  been  induced  to  offer  these  remarks,  with  a  view  to  turn  the  attention  of 
gentlemen,  to  a  great  lover  of  Universal  Suffrage — a  very  great  lover  of  it,  and  a  very 
great  man — he  meant  the  Liberator  of  Colombia.  He  had  been  one  of  the  greatest 
lovers  and  admirers  of  Universal  Suffrage.  He  had  made  a  Constitution,  too — and 
what  was  it.''  His  first  act  was  to  liberate  all  the  slaves;  his  next  was  to  proclaim 
Universal  Suffrage  ;  then  to  establish  the  trial  by  jury,  and  admit  the  slaves  to  be  jury- 
men ;  and  then  to  proclaim  the  reign  of  universal  liberty.  But  he  had  thought  pro- 
per to  make  one  provision  for  the  exclusion  of  habitual  drunkards.  He  set  negroes 
for  the  jurors — but  the  fact  never  could  be  proved. 

Mr.  Gr.  said,  it  was  not  the  business  of  the  Convention  to  go  into  these  details ;  they 
were  summoned  to  revise  and  amend  a  fundamental  law ;  and  they  must  rely  on  the 
moral  tendency  of  such  laws  for  all  subordinate  effects^  But  where  did  gentlemen 
now  behold  this  great  lover  of  Universal  Suffrage  ?  Where  all  Suffrage  was  put  down, 
and  the  people  subjected  to  his  absolute  will  and  pleasure.  He  was  the  great  autocrat 
of  the  South.  The  same  course  might  have  the  same  termination  elsewhere  :  it  might 
yet  give  a  liberator  to  Virginia.  The  schemes  went  to  take  the  property  of  the  State 
out  of  one  set  of  hands  to  put  it  into  another. 

The  gentleman  from  Loudoun  had  told  the  Convention  that  the  freeholders  were 
forty  thousand,  while  the  non-freeholders  were  sixty  thousand.  Were  these  forty 
thousand  going  to  give  up  the  controul  of  the  property  of  the  Commonwealth  to  those 
sixty  thousand  who  owned  not  one  foot  of  land  in  the  world  ?  Any  man  who  should 
do  so  in  his  private  concerns,  would  be  declared  a  lunatic.  Let  gentlemen  see  the 
issue  of  such  schemes  elsewhere  :  they  ended  in  a  despot,  a  liberator,  an  autocrat,  put 
up,  in  the  first  instance,  by  those  who  had  no  interest  in  the  property  of  the  country. 

Mr.  Henderson,  referring  Mr.  Campbell  to  the  fact  that  the  same  proposition  had 
been  offered  before,  remonstrated  against  its  repetition,  and  reminded  him  in  a  latin 
proverb,  that  the  public  interest  ought  to  take  place  of  all  other  and  minor  interests. 

Mr.  Campbell  denied  that  any  such  proposition  had  been  offered.  He  had  travelled 
extensively  over  the  new  States,  and  had  never  seen  any  of  those  formidable  evils 
which  seemed  to  haunt  gentlemen's  imagination  in  reference  to  Universal  Suffrage. 
He  believed  it  was  owing  to  the  restraints  upon  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  that  Virginia 
was  so  far  behind  some  of  her  neighbours  in  the  culture  of  her  soil,  and  the  progress 
of  general  improvement. 

The  question  was  taken  by  ayes  and  noes,  and  Mr.  Campbell's  amendment  was 
rejected  by  the  following  vote  : 


652 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Aijes — Messrs.  Anderson,  CofFman,  Williamson,  M'Coy,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Bax- 
ter, Mercer,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  George,  M'Millan, 
Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Summers, 
See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell, 
Stuart,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Joynes  and  Bayly — 36. 

Noes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Ta3dor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Clopton,  Harrison,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  Moore,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Ui-quhart,  Leigh 
of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson, 
Griggs,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Cloyd,  Laid- 
ley,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby, 
Campbell  of  Bedford,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Massie,  Bates,  JNeale, 
Rose,  Coalter,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 57. 

Mr.  Leigh  now  renewed  his  motion,  made  yesterday  and  withdrawn,  to  amend  the 
third  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  by  striking  therefrom  all  after  the  word 
"resolved,"  down  to  the  proviso,  and  inserting  a  substitute  prepared  by  him. 

After  some  explanatory  conversation,  and  the  failure  of  a  motion  by  Mr.  Summers 
to  lay  it  upon  the  table,  the  amendment  was  agi'eed  to,  nem.  con. 

And  tlien  the  House  adjourned. 


FRIDAY,  December  18,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  w^as  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Hoerner  of  the  Roman  Catholic  Chui-ch. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh,  from  the  committee  on  the  compensation  of  officers,  made  a  report, 
which  was  read,  and  laid  upon  the  table. 

The  House  then  proceeded  to  consider  the  report  of  the  Committee  of  the  Whole, 
and  concurred  in  the  following  amendment  to  the  eighth  resolution  of  the  Legisla- 
tive Committee  : 

"  Resolved,  That  it  ought  to  be  provided  in  the  Constitution,  that  in  all  elections  in 
this  State  to  any  ofiice  or  place  of  trust,  honour  or  profit,  the  votes  should  be  given 
openly,  or  viva  voce,  and  not  by  ballot." 

The  report  of  the  Committee  having  been  gone  through  with,  the  House  proceeded 
to  consider  the  resolutions  of  the  Legislative  Committee  in  order. 

The  first  resolution  was  read  as  follows  : 

"  Resolved,  That  in  the  apportionment  of  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates, 
regard  should  be  had  to  the  white  population  exclusively." 

On  the  suggestion  of  Mr.  Leigh,  this  resolution  was  postponed  for  the  present, 
until  the  House  should  be  full. 

(Mr.  Randolph's  indisposition  had  detained  him  from  his  seat.) 

The  second  resolution  was  read  as  follows : 

"  Resolved,  That  a  Census  of  the  population  of  the  State,  for  the  purpose  of  ap- 
portioning the  representation,  should  be  taken  in  the  year  1831,  the  year  1845,  and 
thereafter  at  least,  once  in  every  twenty  years." 

On  the  suggestion  of  Mr.  Powell,  that'this  resolution  was  immediately  connected 
with  the  former,  it  also  was  passed  by  for  the  present. 

The  third  resolution,  as  amended  in  the  House  yesterday,  on  Mr.  Leigh's  motion 
was  next  read  in  the  words  following : 

"  Every  male  citizen  of  the  Commonwealth  resident  therein,  aged  twenty-one 
years  and  upwards,  other  than  free  negroes  and  mulattoes,  qualified  to  exercise  the 
Right  of  Suffrage  by  the  existing  Constitution  and  laws — and  every  such  citizen  being 
possessed,  or  whose  tenant  for  years,  at  will,  or  at  sufferance,  is  possessed  of  land  of  the 
assessed  value  of  twenty-five  dollars,  if  such  assessment  be  required  by  law,  and 
having  an  estate  of  freehold  therein — and  ever}'^  such  citizen  being  possessed  as  ten- 
ant in  common,  joint  tenant  or  parcener  of  an  interest  in  or  share  of  land,  and  having 
an  estate  of  freehold  therein,  such  interest  or  share  being  of  the  assessed  value  of 
twenty-five  dollars,  if  such  asscbsment  be  required  by  law  ;  and  every  such  citizen 
being  entitled  to  a  reversion  or  vested  remainder  in  fee,  expectant  on  an  estate  for 
life  or  lives,  in  land  of  the  assessed  value  of  fifty  dollars,  if  such  assessment  be  re- 
quired by  law,  (each  and  every  such  citizen,  unless  his  title  shall  have  come  to  him 
by  descent,  devise,  marriage,  or  marriage  settlement,  having  been  so  possessed  or 
entitled  for  six  months,)  and  every  such  citizen  who  shall  own  and  be  himself  in  ac- 
tual occupation  of  a  leasehold  estate,  with  the  evidence  of  title  recorded,  of  a 
term  originally  not  less  than  five  years,  of  the  annual  value  or  rent  of  twenty  dollars; 
and  every  such  citizen,  who  for  twelve  months  next  preceding,  has  been  a  house- 
keeper and  head  of  a  family  within  the  city,  county,  borough  or  election  district 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


653 


where  he  may  offer  to  vote,  and  shall  have  been  assessed  "witli  a  part  of  the  revenue 
of  the  Cornrnou wealth  within  the  preceding  year,  and  actually  paid  the  same,  and  no 
other  persons,  shall  be  qualified  to  vote  for  members  of  the  General  Assembly  in  the 
county,  city,  or  borough,  respectively,  wherein  such  land  lieth.  or  such  house-keeper 
and  head  of  a  family  hveth ;  and  in  case  of  two  or  more  tenants;  in  common,  joint  tenants 
or  parceners,  in  possession,  reversion,  or  remainder,  havinof  interest  in  land,  the  va- 
lue whereof  shall  be  insufncient  to  entitle  them  all  to  vote,  they  shall  together  have 
as  many  votes  as  the  value  of  the  land  shall  entitle  them  to  :  and  the  Leg-islature  sliall 
by  law  provide  the  mode  in  which  their  vote  or  votes  shall  in  such  case  be  given." 
^  The  question  then  being  on  the  filling  of  the  blank  in  the  above  resolution, 
Mr.  Leigh  moved  to  fiU  it  with  the  words    three  months." 

Mr.  L.  in  advocating  this  amendment  said,  that  he  should  not  trouble  the  House 
with  many  remarks  on  the  propriety  of  tliat  term.  It  would  be  recollected  that  free- 
holders, by  a  resolution  already  agreed  to,  were  required  to  have  their  title  for  six 
months  before  the  time  they  otier  to  vote ;  and  the  question  was,  whether  the  non- 
freeholder,  who  certainly  had  a  less  interest  in  the  community,  ought  not  to  have 
theirs  at  least  three  months  before  they  voted  ?  The  object  of  botli  provisions  was  to 
prevent  a  fraudulent  manufacturing  of  votes  with  a  view  to  an  approaching  election. 
The  period  of  six  months  in  the  case  of  freeholders,  though  it  might  not  be  a  perfect 
safeguard,  vrould,  under  the  prevailing  temper  and  habits  of  Vircfinia,  be  generally 
found  sumcient.  It  would  rarely  occur,  that  votes  would  be  provided  so  long  as  six 
months  before  an  election.  If,  indeed,  such  a  practice  did  at  all  exist,  the  mode  was 
to  make  the  fraudulent  deed  just  before  the  election  took  place,  but  to  antedate  it 
the  law  not  requiring  the  deed  to  have  been  recorded.  He  was  very  much  gratified 
to  hear  the  truth  of  such  an  allegation  denied,  as  it  applied  to  the  Western  part  of 
the  State,  and  in  the  roundest  terms.  As  to  the  case  of  leaseholders,  occupation  was 
required,  and  this  he  presumed  would  be  sufficient,  though  he  could  easily  conceive 
a  case  in  which  that  seciirity  would  fail.  Suppose  a  tenant  to  have  rented  a  tract  of 
land,  on  which  he  was  employing  many  free  white  labourers.  All  he  would  have  to 
do,  would  be  to  partition  out  the  land  and  re-let  it  to  these  labourers,  and  put  them  in 
possession  of  their  respective  shares ;  then  let  them  vote ;  and  immediately  after, 
transfer  the  land  book  to  the  original  tenant.  He  said,  he  saw  no  motive  to  induce 
any  gentleman  to  desire  to  leave  open  a  door  to  frauds  of  any  kind,  let  the  qualifica^ 
tion  be  what  it  might. 

He  concluded  by  moving  to  fill  the  blank  with  three  months. 

Mr.  Summers  said,  he  was  unwilling  to  countenance  frauds  of  any  kind,  and  very 
desirous  of  withholding  all  facilities  to  their  perpetration,  particularly  in  relation 
to  our  future  elections :  but  that  he  was  also  opposed  to  multiplying  difficulties  to 
the  exercise  of  the  elective  franchise.  He  thought  the  recording  of  the  lease,  with 
a  shorter  period  of  occupancy,  would  sufficiently  guard  against  irregular  voters. 
It  would  be  a  troublesome,  and  somewhat  expensive  operation,  for  a  tenant  to  leave 
his  tenement,  and  put  a  sub-tenant  into  possession,  and  therefore,  not  likely  to  be 
practiced  for  the  purpose  of  multiplying  votes,  and  that  if  this  mode  of  evading  the 
law  should  ever  be  resorted  to,  the  pro\nsions  requiring  all  who  are  challenged  to 
purge  themselves  on  oath,  would  be  found  a  sufficient  security  against  the  species  of 
fraud  which  seems  to  be  apprehended. 

The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  had  expressed  his  gratification,  on  learning  that 
no  fraudulent  or  collusive  conveyances  had  been  resorted  to  in  the  West,  with  a  view 
to  creating  votes ;  if  that  gentleman  referred  to  what  had  fallen  from  him  on  a  for- 
mer occasion,  he  felt  persuaded  that  he  would  do  him  the  justice  to  recollect,  that 
while  he  denied  the  existence  of  any  such  practices  within  his  own  observation, 
he  had  particularly  referred  to  a  striking  case  which  had  been  reported  to  him,  and  in 
v\'-hich  the  attempt  had  proved  abortive,  from  the  prompt  and  correct  course  pursued 
by  the  commissioners  appointed  to  hold  the  election.  He  did  not  wish  to  be  under- 
stood now,  or  at  any  other  time,  as  denying  the  existence  of  such  frauds;  he  feared 
from  what  he  had  learned  here,  that  they^were  too  frequent  throughout  the  State, 
and  while  he  would  take  pleasure  in  extendino-  every  reasonable  guard  to  prevent 
their  re-occurrence,  he  could  not  consent  to  any  unnecessary  restraints  upon  those 
whom  it  was  intended  to  admit  to  the  Right  of  Suffrao;e. 

3Ir.  Leigh  said,  that  a  gentleman  near  him  had  given  him  a  very  wood  reason  for  re- 
ducing the  term  from  tliree  to  tico  months  :  which  was.  that  the  leases  usually  run  from 
1st  January,  and  were  commonly  recorded  some  time  during  the  month  of  Januar\' : 
as  the  elections  were  commonly  held  in  April,  if  three  months  were  required,  the 
period  would  be  too  long.    He  would  therefore  be  content  with  two  months. 

[Some  explanations  passed  between  ^Ir.  Leigh  and  Mr.  Summers,  as  to  the  denial 
by  the  latter's  having  been  qualified  in  general.] 

Mr.  L.  said,  all  he  wished,  was  to  impose  the  same  security  in  the  case  of  leaseholds 
as  in  that  of  freeholds :  he  was  aware  that  it  was  impracticable  to  attain  perfect  se- 
curity against  frauds,  for  all  laws  would  be  evaded. 


654 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


As  to  the  consideration  of  expense,  though  few  men  would  pay  much  money  to 
give  a  vote,  yet  there  might  be  men  who  would  willingly  give  money  to  get  a  vote. 

Mr.  Sununers  was  not  satisfied  with  the  term  of  two  months.  He  referred  to  the 
practice  existing  in  some  part  of  tlie  State  of  creating  very  burdensome  leases  re- 
vokable  at  the  pleasure  of  the  landlord.  It  would  be  better  to  give  the  people  their 
rights,  and  not  force  them  to  indirect  means  to  attain  them.  It  was  customary  to 
transfer  the  possession  of  leasehold  property  in  April,  as  the  stock  of  provender  was 
then  consumed,  and  the  new  crop  would  have  to  be  put  in.  If  the  term  was  re- 
duced to  one  month,  he  would  support  the  amendment. 

Mr.  Doddridge  explained  the  great  ease  with  which  fraudulent  freehold  votes 
might  be  created  by  large  land  speculators ;  holding  the  title  of  lands  which  had  no 
•  existence,  or  for  which  different  grants  had  been  issued.  He  perfectly  agreed  in  the 
obligation  on  all  honorable  men  to  unite  in  the  prevention  of  frauds  :  they  were  al- 
ways practised  at  the  expense  of  honorable  men,  because  they  would  not  avail  them- 
selves of  similar  means. 

He  explained  the  practice  of  issuing  leases  on  the  1st  of  April — in  his  district  it 
was  almost  universal,  and  in  Wheeling  tlie  streets  were  alive  on  that  day  with  people, 
changing  their  residence  and  moving  their  furniture.  He  apprehended  no  great  dan- 
ger from  removals  for  the  sake  of  fraudulent  taking  of  possession,  to  be  relinquished 
after  the  election  was  over :  such  a  transaction  must  become  known,  and  would  in- 
volve the  perpetrators  in  disgrace.    He  was  in  favour  of  a  term  of  one  month. 

The  question  being  put,  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Leigh  was  agreed  to,  ayes  53  :  bo 
the  blank  was  filled  with  the  words  "  two  months." 

The  question  now  recurring  on  the  resolution  as  amended, 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke,  demanded  the  ayes  and  noes,  and  they  were  ordered  by 
the  House.    Being  taken,  they  stood  as  follows: 

Ayes — Messrs.  Cloplon,  Anderson, Cotfinan,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy, 
"Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Madison,  Mercer,  Filzhugh,  Henderson,  Os- 
;borne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pen- 
fdleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Ma- 
;thews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of 
iBrooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Townes,  Cabell,  Martin, 
..Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 56. 

JVoc5 — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
jierfield,  Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
.Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh 
sof  Halifax.,  Logan,  Venable,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris^ 
jOarnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis, 
jiGrigsby,  Branch,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose  and  Coalter — 40. 

The  House  being  now  full,  on  motion  of  Mr.  Powell,  the  House  returned  to  the 
consideration  of  the  first  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee,  which  was  read  as 
■follows : 

"  Resolved,  That  in  the  apportionment  of  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates, 
3.*egard  should  be  had  to  the  white  population  exclusively." 

Mr.  Venable  then  rose,  and  addressed  the  House  in  nearly  the  following  terms: 
Mr.  President  :  The  question  of  the  basis  of  Representation  has  been  so  ably  and 
fully  discussed,  in  the  early  part  of  our  session,  that  on  this  subject  1  had  concluded 
■to  say  nothing  ;  being  fully  convinced  that  my  abilities  fall  far  short  of  those  which 
iliad  been  already  exerted  on  the  side  I  should  advocate.  Yet  I  have  been  taught  by 
■experience,  that  one  more  intelligent  and  eloquent  than  another,  may  not  be  able  with 
precision  to  express  the  views  and  opinions  of  that  other  on  any  given  subject.  I 
iiave  concluded,  therefore,  to  give  my  own  opinions  in  my  own  imperfect  way; 
thinking  that  I  may  possibly  say  something,  even  after  all  the  discussion  which  has 
taken  place,  that  ma}^  serve  for  future  reflection,  although  I  have  not  the  remotest 
hope  of  producing  a  change  in  one  vote  to-day.  In  expressing  my  own  views,  it  may 
.have  a  good  effect  in  another  way.  I  may  be  in  an  error,  obviously  so ;  and  some 
gentleman  may  set  me  right — for,  this  is  what  I  desire.  I  wish  to  aid  in  laying  the 
foundation  of  a  Government,  so  that  it  may  be  practically  beneficial.  Whatever  form 
of  Government  we  adopt,  it  can  never  be  permanent  unless  it  be  beneficial  and  just 
in  its  practical  operations.  In  the  course  of  the  present  discussion,  I  think  I  have 
perceived  something  in  our  Western  brethren,  like  prejudice  against  their  fellow- 
citizens  who  reside  in  the  slave-holding  part  of  the  State ;  possibly  I  have  been  mis- 
taken ;  but  if  any  do  eniertain  such  feelings,  to  them  I  would  say,  that  I  have  had 
no  more  controul  of  the  dispensations,  that  caused  me  to  be  born  and  raised  where 
part  of  the  population  are  slaves,  or  which  produced  that  state  of  things,  than  those 
who  dwell  among  tlie  mountains  have  been  able  to  controul  the  destiny  that  made 
that  the  place  of  "their  nativity,  or  located  the  mountains  where  they  are.  Both  are 
evils,  but  I  consider  the  mixed  population  the  greater  evil  of  the  two. — We  have  seen 
no  practicabJe  mode  of  removing  the  coloured  population,  nor  have  our  brethren  of 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


655 


the  West  been  able  to  remove  the  mountains.  I  would  wish  to  consider  this  question 
■without  prejudice.  1  came  here  with  a  desire  to  aid  in  forming  a  Government,  which 
should  recognize  such  rights  as  had  been  acquired  under  our  present  Government; 
such  as  wei-e  known  and  acknowledged.  Those  rights  the  new  Government  must 
secure,  or  it  will  not  give  satisfaction  ;  it  will  not  work  well  in  practice. 

As  to  the  police  of  the  various  counties,  that  has  been  no  cause  of  collision.  Each 
county  has  attended  to  its  own  internal  concerns,  and  there  is  no  cause  of  strife  on 
that  ground.  As  to  the  present  rights  of  the  citizens,  they  are  the  same  in  all  parts  of 
the  State  ;  no  ditficulty  exists  in  tbat  respect.  Our  whole  difficulty  in  forming  a 
Government  is  founded  in  the  circumstance,  that  the  East  have  a  large  portion  of 
their  population  coloured,  or  slaves,  whilst  the  Western  half  of  the  State  contains 
almost  wholly  a  free  white  population.  1  shall  endeavour  to  confine  my  attention  to 
this  part  of  the  subject. 

And  first.  I  would  observe,  that  all  representative  Governments  that  ever  have,  or 
can  be  formed  so  as  to  be  permanent,  nuust  preserve  some  proportion  between  repre- 
sentation and  taxation.  1  say,  representation  should  be  in  proportion,  or  if  not  in 
exact  proportion,  should  bear  a  just  relation  to  taxation  ;  for,  if  the  tux-levijing  com- 
munity be  very  dilFerent  from  the  tax-paijing  community,  the  power  of  the  former' 
over  the  latter  will  be  exercised  oppressivelv.  The  question  then  arises,  how  shall 
we  have  representation  so  as  to  be  in  just  proportion  to  taxation  ?  Taxation,  whether 
of  an  individual  or  of  a  community,  or  county,  should  be  in  proportion  to  their  ability 
to  pay.  No  rule  has  ever  yet  been  discovered,  which  in  practice  would  exactly  indi- 
cate this  ability  to  pay.  Tnat  wbich  has  been  generally  adopted  as  best,  is  numbers- 
or  population  :  if  then  the  ability  to  pay  be  indicated  by  numbers,  or  population,  the' 
tax  to  be  paid  by  the  different  parts  of  the  country,  will  in  general  bear  the  same  re- 
lation to  numbers,  and  the  representation  may  be  safely  based  on  population ;  but  if 
must  be  the  whole  population,  from  whose  labour  the  revenue  is  derived.  These  are 
the  opinions  which  will  govern  me,  and  direct  to  the  conclusions  to  which  I  shall  ar- 
rive on  this  subject — Certainly  there  should  be  a  close  connection  between  thoss  who* 
lay  the  taxes,  and  those  who  pay  them. 

In  considering  this  question,  our  situation  has  been  compared  to  other  States  in  the- 
Union,  but  the  comparison  will  not  apply.  Virginia  has  one  half  of  her  territory 
largely  interested  in  a  black  slave  population,  while  the  other  half  is  inhabited  by 
wbite  population  exclusiveh^,  or  nearly  so.  There  is  no  State  in  the  Union  similarlvr 
situated.  In  the  Southern  States,  where  this  population  prevails,  it  prevails  through- 
out the  whole  State,  in  nearly  equal  proportions,  so  that  the  discussion  which  oceupiesr^ 
us  here,  can  have  no  place  among  them  :  there  is  no  one  State  whose  condition  fur- 
nishes a  correct  analogy;  but  an  analogy  does  exist,  and  to  the  extent,  in  the  condi- 
tion of  the  Union  taken  collectively..  And  what  was  the  determination  in  that  Con- 
vention, which  framed  a  Constitution,  to  suit  such  a  state  of  things,  only  existintr  on- 
a  larger  scale  r  What  was  the  expedient  hit  upon  to  meet  tlie  difficultv,  and  which 
did  meet  that  difficulty  azid  remove  it.'  It  was  the  principle  that  population  and  taxa-. 
tion  should  correspond  to  each  other ;  that  the  slave  States  should  be  taxed  only  iit 
proportion  to  the  population  enumerated.  This  principle  was  supported  by  Virginia 
herself,  and  it  was  adopted  and  established  by  the  Federal  Government  in  its  wisdom. 

There  is  another  way  of  considering  the  subject,  ana  it  is  one  I  am  fond  of  apply- 
ing to  all  subjects  which  1  am  called  upon  to  examine  ;  that  is,  to  work  out  the  rule  ;, 
to  trace  the  principle  out  to  its  practical  details.  Let  us  in  this  way  attempt  to  examine 
the  rule  established  by  the  existing  Government,  and  then  tr}'  that  which  it  is  pro- 
posed to  form  by  placing  representation  on  the  white  basis. 

To  remove  from  our  minds  as  far  as  possible  all  prejudice,,  for  prejudice  I  am  con- 
strained to  believe  has  its  influence,  when  I  see  the  individuals  of  this  Convention^, 
of  equal  talents  and  integrity,  directly  opposed  to  each  other  in  opinion,  and  these 
opinions  generally  indicating  their  geographical  situation — I  say,  to  free  ourselves 
from  this  intluence,  I  will  suppose  the  case  of  two  counties,  and  suppose  that  we  are  the 
jury  which  has  to  try  the  question  as  between  them :  I  will  take  for  this  purpose  the 
counties  of  Albemarle  and  Buckingham ;  counties  containing  the  same  amount  of 
population,  and  the  same  quality  of  soil,  but  with  this  difference  between  them  ; 
Albemarle  has  one-half  of  its  population  consisting  of  black  slaves ;  Buckingham  has 
its  population  consisting  of  free  white  persons  only ;  how  will  the  Governrnent  as  it 
now  exists  operate  on  these  two  counties  — I  have  said  they  were  equal  in  their  popu- 
lation, and  in  their  soil,  and  hence  equal  in  their  crops  and  in  their  capacity  to  sus- 
tain taxation;  their  land  tax  also  equal — how  are  they  represented.'  By  two  repre- 
sentatives from  each.  This  is  very  well:  here  is  no  inequality  or  injustice  :  but  Buck- 
ingham becomes  dissatisfied — She  says,  I  will  not  consent  that  slaves  shall  be  repre- 
sented. I  will  have  a  new  Constitution,  and  representation  shall  be  based  on  white 
population  exclusively."  The  new  Constitution  is  adopted  and  goes  into  operation  :; 
and  what  is  the  effect.'  It  is  simply  this;  while  the  population  of  Albemarle  is  the 
same,  and  pays  the  same  amount  of  tax,  Buckingham  has  two  representatives,  Albe- 


656 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


marie  but  one  :  this  is  the  effect.  The  present  contest  relates  to  the  Treasury ;  and 
here,  while  these  two  counties  pay  the  same  amount  of  tax,  one  of  them  has  double 
the  representation  of  the  other.  Plow  could  Albemarle  lay  any  restraint  on  Bucking- 
ham in  her  future  views  of  taxation  ?  Is  it  not  plain  that  Buckingham  might  levy 
taxes  and  appropriate  tliem  at  pleasure.  If  Albemarle  had  a  prudent  regard  for  her 
cwn  safety,  would  she  not  rather  say,  that  she  would  live  without  such  an  associate 
in  Government,  and  rely  on  her  own  strength  and  importance  ?  Indeed,  were  such  a 
Government,  formed  it  could  not  be  permanent;  because  it  does  not  contain  the  ele- 
ments of  justice  and  protection  to  its  several  parts. 

Tims  far  I  have  supposed  the  taxation  of  the  two  counties  to  be  equal;  but  now  let 
us  extend  our  views  further  :  Albemarle,  long  before  Buckingham  was  settled,  had  a 
poll-tax  on  her  black  population,  and  as  the  black  population  extended  through  the 
Vfhole  county,  there  was  no  material  injustice  in  its  operation:  it  was  found  conve- 
nient, and  was  her  own  concern.  But  after  a  time  her  white  citizens  emigrated  over 
James  river  and  settled  Buckingham;  and  now  the  poll-tacc  on  slaves  is  no  longer  a 
matter  of  indilference  ;  since  its  pressure  is  on  Albemarle  alone,  it  becomes  an  impor- 
tant question.  Albemarle  has  paid  an  equal  tax  with  Buckingham  by  way  of  land-lax, 
and  then  pays  a  poll-tax  of  equal  amount  on  half  her  population,  so  that  the  tax  on 
Albemarle  is  double,  and  yet  the  ability  to  pay,  was,  as  before  stated,  only  the  same. 
Thus  there  is  a  new  difference  between  these  counties;  one  has  to  pay  a  double  tax, 
while  it  is  at  the  same  time  but  half  represented.  Thus,  the  former  difference  of  two 
to  one,  has  now  become  a  difierence  of  four  to  one,  tvi^o  to  one  in  Representation,  and 
two  to  one  in  taxation. 

1  call  on  gentlemen  on  this  side  the  mountain  to  re-consider  this  subject,  and  can- 
didly to  say,  whether  the  plan  they  propose  does  justice  to  the  counties  they  repre- 
sent: to  say  whether  such  a  basis  of  Representation  is  one  on  which  our  Govern- 
ment can  be  considered  as  permanent  ? 

I  say  again,  that  no  comparison  will  hold,  as  to  anyone  of  the  other  States,  but  that 
it  does  hold  as  it  respects  the  two  portions  of  the  Union  under  the  Federal  Govern- 
ment.   I  ask  again,  what  did  Virginia  contend  for  v^hen  that  compact  was  entered 
into.?    That  the  black  population  should  be  excluded  in  representing  her  in  the  Fede- 
ral Government.?    No,  Sir  :  no  such  thing.    She  maintained  the  principle,  that  Re- 
presentation and  taxation  should  go  hand  in  hand;  that  if  the  enumeration  of  her 
population  was  to  be  reduced  on  account  of  the  slaves,  so  should  her  taxation  in  the 
same  proportion,  or  she  never  could  be  safe.    Such  was  the  demand,  and  such  was 
the  decision  of  the  General  Government ;  and  accordingly,  her  taxation  was  laid 
in  proportion  lo  the  number  of  her  inhabitants  which  was  allowed  in  the  enumera- 
tion.   But,  it  may  be  said,  that  the  case  of  the  two  counties  of  which  I  have 
spoken  is  a  supposed  case,  and  may,  in  some  way,  be  inapplicable  and  delusive.  I 
will  then  take  the  county  of  Harrison,  whose  population  is  ten  thousand,  and  Am- 
herst, whose  whole  population  is  also  ten  thousand,  her  white  population,  four  thou- 
sand four  hundred.    Here  are  two  counties  with  the  same  population  :  how  stands 
the  taxation  ?  Harrison  pays  ,*|  1789,  Amherst  $  4000.   Now  basing  Representation  on 
the  white  basis,  Harrison  gets  two  Representatives  and  Amherst  only  one,  (not  quite 
one).    Here,  then,  you  have  Harrison  paying  less  than  ^2000,  and  Amherst  ^4000, 
a  difference  in  taxation  in  favour  of  Harrison  of  two  to  one.    Again,  Harrison  lias 
two  Representatives  and  Amlierst  one ;  another  difference  in  favour  of  Harrison  of 
two  to  one:  put  the  two  advantages  together,  and  Harrison  by  the  white  basis,  and 
our  present  mode  of  taxing,  has  a.n  advantage  over  Amherst  of  four  to  one.    Can  Am- 
herst approve  of  this  ?    Compare  other  comities  of  the  East,  with  the  West,  and  you 
will  find  nearly  the  same  result.    No  Government  can  be  safe  or  well  founded,  where 
the  taxation  and  Representation  of  its  component  parts,  does  not  approximate  much 
nearer  than  four  to  one,  or  even  two  to  one.    No  man  can  come  on  my  land  and  de- 
prive me  of  the  possession.    But,  what  avails  this  possession,  if  doubly  taxed  and 
half  represented.    I  may  be  taxed  to  the  amount  of  its  annual  value,  and  the  fvmds 
appi'opriated  in  a  way  in  which  I  have  no  interest  or  controul.    I  may  complain;  but 
what  does  it  avail?    If  only  half  represented,  I  shall  be  voted  down.    If  such  power 
be  given,  we  had  best  not  send  Delegates  to  the  Assembly  at  all — it  will  be  but  use- 
less trouble  and  expense. "  But  then,  we  have  something  consolatory  about  three- 
tenths  of  the  black  population.    This  is  hable  to  the  same  objection.    In  the  case 
stated  of  Albemarle,  taking  this  into  view,  she  would  have  something  more  ;  and  fitly 
counties  vinder  like  circumstances,  would  be  entitled  to  sixty-five  Representatives  : 
whilst  fifty  counties  situated  as  Buckingham,  would  have  one  hundred  Representa- 
tives.   Would  this  be  justice  to  Albemarle  or  the  counties  associated  with  her.?  Sup- 
pose from  oversight,  or  causes  such  as  have  been  assigned,  Albemarle  and  the  coun- 
ties in  like  circumstances  have  not  only  paid  land  and  other  taxes,  in  proportion  to 
their  ability  to  pay,  but  also  a  poll-tax  on  the  slave  population,  of  equal,  and  in  many 
cases  of  greater  amount.    Suppose  this  poll-tax  from  the  present  diversity  of  the 
population  in  the  East  and  West,  can  be  demonstrated  to  be  unjust  and  oppressive  lo 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


657 


the  East ;  as  I  think  it  can  most  clearly.  Should  the  white  basis  of  Representation 
be  now  adopted,  what  prospect  would  be  offered  to  Eastern  Virginia  to  resist  this  op- 
pressive mode  of  taxation— this  jwll-tax  on  slaves?  In  relation  to  the  treasury,  all 
that  Western  Virginia  should  ask  of  the  East,  is,  that  the  West  should  sustain  no 
wrong  from  the  condition  of  the  black  population  of  the  East;  that  the  East  should 
contrfbute  as  much  as  their  whole  population  would,  were  they  white  and  free.  Be- 
yond this  is  oppressive  and  unjust. 

Land  to  produce  revenue  must  be  combined  with  labour,  A  land-tax  diminishes 
the  value  of  labour  as  well  as  land  ;  and,  although,  it  may  be  denominated  a  land-tax, 
its  operation  is  a  tax  on  labour  as  well  as  on  the  land  ;  and  this  is  the  case  whether 
the  labourers  be  bond  or  free ;  black  or  white.  A  tax  on  land  is  a  tax  on  every  man 
who  labours  on  it.  Where  the  labourer  is  free,  it  is  paid  by  the  labourer  in  the 
diminution  of  wages— where  the  labourer  is  a  slave,  it  is  paid  by  the  master  out  of  tlie 
proceeds  of  the  labour  of  the  slave.  Had  the  Federal  Government  the  power,  and 
should  levy  a  poll  or  other  tax  on  slaves,  would  it  not  do  injustice  to  the  slave-hold- 
ing States.'    Should  they  also  lay  a  land-tax,  would  this  remove  the  injustice  ? 

This  is  precisely  the  case  between  Eastern  and  Western  Virginia.  Such,  Mr. 
President,  have  been  my  reflections,  while  attempting  to  form  a  judgment  on  this 
part  of  the  question  under  consideration.  I  think  the  principle  adopted  by  the  Fede- 
ral Government  in  relation  to  this  subject  just  and  proper  :  that  is,  that  the  number 
taxed  should  be  represented,  and  when  the  whole  number  is  taxed  without  regard  to 
condition  as  in  Virginia,  the  whole  should  be  represented.  I  consider  it,  therefore,  a 
concession  to  the  West,  on  the  part  of  the  people  of  the  East,  when  they  propose  to 
base  Representation  on  what  is  called  Federal  numbers. 

Mr.  Summers  then  rose  and  addressed  the  House  on  the  other  side  : 

Mr.  Summers,  after  inquiring  of  the  President  if  it  would  be  in  order  to  consider 
the  resolutions  offered  some  time  since  by  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Cooke,) 
and  the  resolutions  offered  by  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  (Mr.  Upshur,)  in 
connection  with  the  resolution  of  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  now  under  considera- 
tion, and  to  contrast  their  relative  provisions,  and  being  informed  that  it  would  be  in 
order  to  do  so,  addressed  the  Chair  in  substance  as  follows  : 

Mr.  S.  said  he  could  not  longer  observe  the  silence  which  he  had  hitherto  imposed 
upon  himself,  in  relation  to  the  important  subject  under  consideration.  The  deep  in- 
terest felt  by  some  fifty  thousand  of  his  fellow-citizens,  in  the  deliberations  of  this 
day,  and  whom  he  had  the  honour  in  part  to  represent  on  this  floor,  forbid  it.  The  hap- 
piness and  security  of  their  posterity  forbid  it.  He  came  here,  he  said,  persuaded, 
that  the  people  of  Virginia  had  the  unalienable  right  to  alter  and  reform  their  Go- 
vernment, and  to  direct  its  operations  when  formed :  this  opinion  he  had  not  aban- 
doned. It  was  one  he  never  should  surrender  :  necessity,  and  very  imperious  neces- 
sity, could  alone  limit  its  influence ;  that  necessity,  he  thought,  now  existed,  and  he 
was  willing  to  limit  it  to  ground  less  exiensive  than  it  legitimately  covered.  Its  en- 
tire surrender  was  however  demanded,  and  he  was  required  to  adopt  the  principle, 
that  a  minority  of  the  people,  under  peculiar  circumstances,  should  govern,  controul, 
and  direct  a  majority  of  their  fellow-citizens ;  a  sacrifice  which  he  could  not  make, 
which  he  never  would  make. 

Before  entering  upon  the  consideration  of  the  subjects  before  him,  he  said,  he 
would  take  leave  to  correct  some  errors  into  which  gentlemen  had  fallen.  It  had 
been  supposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania,  (Mr.  Stanard.)  that  the  West 
claimed  an  equal  participation  in  the  Legislation  of  the  country,  as  a  debt  of  gratitude, 
accruing  from  the  blood  and  treasure  expended  in  defence  of  the  Eastern  frontier  du- 
ring the  late  war.  In  this,  he  said,  the  Western  people  were  misapprehended;  their 
claim  rested  on  other  and  stronger  o-rounds.  Debts  of  gratitude,  he  said,  were  can- 
celled when  claimed  :  That  the  West- asked  nothing  of  the  bount}-  of  their  Eastern 
brethren ;  they  invoked  their  justice  only.  The  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania,  he 
said,  had,  however,  kindly  pointed  us  to  the  beneficent  conduct  of  our  Eastern  brethren, 
on  two  occasions,  when  he  supposed,  that  as  far  as  gratitude  was  concerned,  the  ac- 
count was  settled.  The  first  was  the  distribution  of  the  Literary  Fund,  according  to 
white  population  ;  the  second,  the  saving  of  the  West  from  the  pernicious  effects  of 
a  "  splendid  scheme  of  banking,"  rejected  by  the  Legislature  a  few  years  since. 

As  to  the  first,  Mr.  S.  remarked,  that  the  policy  of  the  East  forbade  the  education 
of  their  slaves ;  and  as  white  children  were  the  only  objects  of  the  public  bounty  lefl, 
it  resulted,  necessaril}'.  that  this  bounty  should  be  distributed  with  reference  to  the 
numbers  to  be  benefitted,  and  without  conferring  an}'  peculiar  boon,  on  any  particular 
part  of  the  Commonwealth.  As  to  the  second,  he  said,  all  must  recollect  the  perti- 
nacity with  which  the  Legislature  resisted  the  attempts  which  were  made,  to  aid  the 
enterprize  and  industry  of  the  West,  by  the  establishment  of  a  few  safe  and  secure 
banks;  a  resistance,  wliich  brought  into  existence,  those  that  were  founded  in  infrac- 
tions of  the  laws,  without  capital,  and  in  their  ultimate  results,  most  injurious  to  the 
country  in  which  they  had  existence ;  that  a  course  of  legislation  followed,  which  lell 

83 


G53 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


these  unauthorised  banking  institutions,  in  possession  of  their  ill-gotten  gains,  with- 
out any  means  of  recovery  for  the  great  variety  of  debts  which  they  had  contracted 
with  the  holders  of  their  notes. 

This  debt  of  gratitude  paid  to  the  West  by  saving  them  from  banks,  was  followed 
in  the  East  by  creating  and  continuing  in  operation  banks  of  vast  capital,  extending 
their  branches  from  the  metropolis  to  all  the  principal  towns.  What  was  to  have 
been  the  curse  of  one  quarter  of  the  State,  was  given  as  a  blessing  to  another.  He 
would  not  stop  to  inquire  how  much  of  that  property,  for  which  political  power  is 
now  claimed,  had  resulted  from  bank  accommodations,  bank  dividends,  or  bank  sala- 
ries; but  judging  from  the  palaces  around  us,  this  source  of  wealth  could  not  have 
been  inconsiderable. 

Mr.  S.  said,  when  the  question  of  equal  representation  was  presented  to  this  body, 
it  was  resisted  on  the  ground  that  the  slave  property  of  the  East  could  not  be  safely 
confided  to  Western  legislation,  because  but  a  small  proportion  of  this  property  was 
held  in  that  part  of  the  State.  To  resist  tliis  disingenuous  objection,  the  West  had 
referred  their  Eastern  brethren  to  the  alacrity  with  which  the  men  of  the  mountains 
descended  to  the  shores  of  tlie  ocean,  to  assist  in  the  defence  of  the  persons  and  pro- 
perty of  their  Eastern  brethren  ;  not  as  forming  claims  upon  their  gratitude,  but  for 
the  purpose  of  repelhng  the  unwarranted  assumption,  that  they  could  not  be  safely 
trusted  with  their  just  share  in  the  Government  of  the  country.  He  asked  to  whom 
was  this  distrust  directed  ?  Who  are  the  men  you  thus  hold  unworthy  of  equal  poli- 
tical rights?  Sprung  from  the  same  common  stock,  their  fathers  formed  the  frontier 
barrier  between  your  fathers  and  the  savages  of  the  wilderness — the  descendants  of 
the  Campbells  and  the  Prestons — the  Lewises  and  the  Dickinsons— the  Lowthers  and 
the  Morgans,  ask  their  equal  rights  at  your  hands;  and  are  Ihey  to  be  told,  that  al- 
though they  are  the  sons  of  sires  who  bore  your  flag  triumphant  against  the  Indian 
hordes  at  the  mouth  of  Kanawha,  and  against  the  no  less  barbarous  enemy  on  King's 
Mountain — who  stood  by  you  in  every  peril,  and  shared  with  you  in  every  danger, 
that  they  must  hold  a  colonial  inferiority  in  the  Commonwealth,  because  they  hold 
fewer  slaves  than  their  brethren  in  the  East ! 

The  men,  whom  you  cannot  now  trust  with  equal  political  rights,  were  not  distrust- 
ed during  the  darkest  hour  of  your  danger.  When  the  capital  was  threatened  during 
the  late  war,  your  Governor  appealed  to  the  patriotism  of  the  country  for  its  defence. 
The  West  scarcely  heard  tlie  alarm,  when  a  corps  of  cavalry  with  their  intrepid  leader, 
Steenbergen,  at  their  head,  left  the  Ohio  shore,  for  the  defence  of  the  Eastern  border : 
Wilson's  company  of  riflemen  left  the  valley  of  Kanawha  for  the  same  destination. 
The  enquiry  was  not  then  made,  who  paid  the  greatest  or  least  amount  of  taxes;  who 
owned  the  greatest  or  smallest  number  of  slaves.  Their  common  country  was  in 
danger,  and  the  only  question  was,  where  could  service  be  most  efi^ectually  rendered. 
As  characteristic  of  the  feeling  of  tliat  country,  he  begged  leave  to  mention  a  single 
occurrence  of  devotion  to  the  Commonwealth.  Two  young  gentlemen,  who  had  just 
closed  their  studies,  and  about  to  enter  on  their  professional  career,  left  the  Western 
frontier  on  foot,  and  threaded  the  mazes  of  your  Western  mountains,  until  they 
reached  Jackson's  river.  Unaccustomed  to  this  mode  of  travelling,  fatigued,  but  not 
discouraged,  they  embarked  in  a  canoe,  at  the  mouth  of  Dunlap's  creek,  encountered 
the  perils  of  the  falls  and  rapids  of  James  river,  to  which  they  were  entire  strangers. 
At  Richmond  they  reported  themselves,  and  repaired  to  Norfolk,  where  they  performed 
a  full  tour  of  duty.  With  pleasure,  he  added,  that  this  early  devotion  to  their  native 
State  had  been  followed  by  a  life  of  honor  and  usefulness,  in  each  of  these  gentlemen, 
and  that  one  of  them  holds  a  place  upon  this  floor.  He  begged  leave  to  enquire,  if 
stronger  evidence  could  be  given,  of  the  safety  and  security  with  which  political 
rights,  and  equal  participation  in  the  Government,  could  be  conceded  to  any  people. 
Another  ground  of  distrust,  however,  he  said,  had  been  relied  upon.  It  had  been  the 
pleasure  of  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  (Judge  Green.)  to  suppose,  that  the  people 
of  the  West  have  contracted  a  passion  for  internal  improvement,  and  that  this  passion 
may  prompt  them  to  excessive  taxation,  to  carry  into  eftect  their  favorite  S3'stem  of 
policy.  The  tendency  to  abuse  the  taxing  power,  by  the  people  of  the  West,  had 
also  been  relied  on  by  other  gentlemen,  as  a  source  of  danger  to  the  East,  against 
which  they  insist  upon  security.  He  said,  if  this  disqualifying  mania  really  prevailed 
in  the  West,  from  whom  was  it  derived?  He  would  call  the  attention  of  the  Con- 
vention to  the  letters  of  General  Washington.  The  father  of  his  country  was  scarcely 
relieved  from  the  toils  of  the  camp,  when  in  writing  to  the  then  Governor  of  Virginia, 
he  urged  the  necessity  of  connecting  the  Eastern  and  Western  waters  of  the  Com- 
monwealth, at  the  most  practicable  points,  particularly  enforcing  the  practicability  and 
great  importance  of  drawing  the  Western  trade  into  Virginia,  by  the  Kanawha  and 
James  river.  In  1810-11,  a  lowland  Legislature  organized  a  commission,  for  the  ex- 
amination of  those  rivers,  whose  report  gave  to  the  country  the  most  flattering  ])ros- 
pect  of  securing  a  very  important  share  of  the  Western  trade  by  that  route.  Tlie 
strong  and  powerful  reasoning  employed  in  that  report,  gave  an  increased  value  to  the 


DEBATES   OF  THE   CONVLin  .0.1 


1)59 


enterprize,  in  the  minds  of  every  one  ;  and  he  only  felt  restrained  from  speaking  of  it, 
with  the  warm  feelings  which  it  produced,  by  the  presence  of  the  distinguished  indi- 
vidual, at  the  head  of  that  commission.  The  subsequent  reports  of  the  Civil  Engi- 
neers, continued  to  increase  the  confidence,  felt  in  the  practicability  and  value  of  the 
work.  But  in  tliis,  as  in  many  other  splendid  projects,  he  feared  that  a  due  regard 
had  not  been  paid  to  all  the  elements,  which  entered  into  the  consideration  of  the 
subject.  It  was  then  supposed  that  the  use  of  steamboats  could  not.  under  any  cir- 
cumstances, reduce  transportation  from  New  Orleans  to  the  mouth  of  Kanawha, 
to  less  than  from  $40  to  §50  per  ton  ;  and  upon  this  estimate  of  freight,  was  the  con- 
clusion mainly  formed,  that  the  Virginia  line  of  proposed  communication,  might  suc- 
cessfully enter  into  competition  with  that  through  the  Gulf  of  Mexico.  Unfortunately 
for  this  hypothesis,  he  had  been  assured  by  merchants  of  respectabilit}'-,  that  their 
goods  had  been  brought  from  the  city  of  New  York,  to  a  point  on  the  Ohio  river,  near 
the  mouth  of  the  Kanawha,  at  one  dollar  and  seventy-five  cents  per  hundred,  inclu- 
ding port  charges,  insurance,  transhipment  at  New  Orleans,  and  drayage  at  the  falls 
at  Louisville.  This  single  fact,  had  gone  far  to  remove  from  his  mind,  the  disqualif}'- 
ing  passion,  supposed  to  be  felt  by  the  Western  people. 

In  looking  through  tliat  district  of  the  Commonwealth,  but  few  objects  of  internal 
improvement  presented  themselves,  of  a  character  warranting  public  expenditure.  The 
forming  and  graduating  a  few  leading  roads,  comprised  the  principal  benefits,  wliich 
he  thought  could  novi-'  be  conferred  on  that  quarter  of  the  State,  with  prcspects  of 
adequate  returns  to  the  treasury.  The  attempts  to  improve  the  rivers,  had  as  yet 
proved  abortive,  particularly  so,  in  relation  to  the  Great  Kanawha.  He  then  adverted 
to  the  quarters  of  the  State  where  public  improvements  were  most  required,  and  where, 
under  any  system,  having  for  its  object  the  dev^elopment  of  the  resources  of  the  Com- 
monwealth, they  were  most  likely  to  take  place. 

In  doing  so,  he  ca.lled  the  attention  of  the  Convention  to  the  connection  of  the  up- 
per branches  of  the  Roanoke  vvith  New  river,  and  to  the  important  influence  of  such 
a  connection  upon  the  growth  and  prosperity  of  Norfolk.  The  Engineers,  in  the  ser- 
vice of  this  State,  as  well  as  those  in  the  employment  of  the  United  States,  had  con- 
curred in  the  reasonable  practicability  of  this  connection,  without  tunnelling  or  deep 
cutting — an  advantage  peculiar  to  this  line.  And  if,  in  his  humble  judgment,  any  por- 
tion of  the  people  of  the  Commonwealth  had  a  deeper  interest  than  their  fellow-citi- 
zens generally,  in  a  liberal  and  extensive  S3-stem  of  improvement,  it  was  the  people  of 
JVorfolk,  and  those  interested  in  its  wealth  and  extension. 

As  to  James  river,  he  said,  that  although  no  adequate  motive  may  exist,  for  mingling 
its  waters  with  the  Kanav.'ha,  yet  it  had  high  claims  upon  the  resources  of  the  State 
for  further  improvement. 

The  canal  of  James  river,  although  now  comparatively  unproductive,  would,  he 
thought,  produce  ample  returns.  If  extended  to  Lynchburg,  its  salutary  effects  upon 
the  trade  and  commerce  of  that  interesting  town,  could  not  be  doubted.  The  Salem 
turnpike,  now  languishing  for  want  of  funds,  might  receive  an  invigoration,  which 
would  shortly  extend  it  to  the  Tennessee  line,  rendering  it  a  source  of  much  wealth 
to  the  intermediate  counties,  as  well  as  to  Lynchburg.  The  Rivanna  and  the  Rappa- 
Liannock,  he  said,  also  looked  to  the  patronage  of  the  State  for  the  extended  benefits 
which  he  hoped  they  were  destined  hereafter  to  eoufer  on  the  agriculture  of  the  coun- 
try. The  Valley  country,  he  said,  would  expect,  as  the  Chesapeake  and  Ohio  canal 
progressed,  some  application  of  the  funds  of  the  State,  to  the  improvement  of  the  She- 
nandoah and  South  Branch ;  but  when  the  whole  field  of  operation  was  passed  in  re- 
view, and  the  objects  of  internal  improvement  fully  considered,  he  thought  every 
mind  must  be  satisfied,  that  the  West  could  find  no  motives  for  favoring  a  rigorous 
and  unjust  system  of  taxation,  to  carry  into  effect  objects,  in  which  they  could  have 
but  a  common  interest,  and  in  relation  to  which,  the  Midland  and  Eastern  District 
must  feel  more  deeply  concerned  than  their  Western  fellow-citizens.  The  various 
and  varying  views  of  gentlemen,  in  relation  to  this  subject  of  internal  improvement, 
would  furnish,  he  thought,  some  illustration  of  the  weight  due  to  the  argument,  wliicli 
denied  to  the  Western  people  their  due  participation  in  the  legislation  of  the  country, 
because  of  their  passion  for  internal  improvement.  Some  few  j-ears  since,  an  enter- 
prize was  determined  upon,  in  the  town  of  Baltimore,  having  for  its  object  the  con- 
nection of  that  city  with  the  Ohio  river,  by  a  rail-road.  Among  the  authors  of  this 
enlightened  undertaking,  was  found  the  venerable  Carroll  of  Carollton,  and  William 
Patterson,  who  might  be  almost  regarded  as  the  father  of  that  city.  These  gentle- 
men, with  eight  others,  subscribed  about  half  a  million  of  stock.  Their  example  was 
followed,  and  the  residue  of  the  capital  was  taken  with  avidity  by  their  fellow  towns- 
men. Application  was  made  to  the  Legislature  of  Virginia,  for  permission  to  conduct 
the  road  through  her  territory.  This  boon,  which  was  to  bring  no  charge  upon  the 
treasury  of  the  State,  but  which  looked  to  the  expenditure  of  a  large  sum  of  money 
among  its  citizens,  was  granted, "but  coupled  with  a  prohibition  against  uniting  the 
xaii-road  with  tlie  Ohio  river,  at  any  point  below  the  Little  Kanawha.    Tliis  reserva- 


660 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


tion,  as  he  understood,  was  made  for  the  avowed  purpose  of  improving,  by  Virginia 
means,  and  Virginia  resources,  the  line  of  the  Great  Kanawha  and  James  river.  So 
strong  was  the  passion  for  internal  improvement  with  the  lowland  gentlemen,  that 
they  reserved  this  entire  line  for  their  own  especial  operations.  In  the  course  of  the 
succeeding  season,  reconnoisances  were  made  by  the  Engineers  of  the  Company,  who 
directed  their  examinations  to  the  valleys  of  the  Shenandoah  and  South  Branch,  as 
well  as  to  the  valley  of  Greenbrier  and  Kanawha.  Their  reports  were  sufficiently 
favorable  to  induce  the  company  to  determine  to  submit  the  line  to  a  critical  survey 
and  examination,  if  the  Virginia  restriction  should  be  removed.  Petitions  from  vari- 
ous quarters  were  presented  to  the  Legislature,  urging  the  removal  of  the  restriction  ; 
but  to  the  astonishment  of  every  body,  the  bill  introduced  for  this  purpose  was  re- 
jected. It  was  resisted  by  lowland  gentlemen,  whose  influence  had  not  been  suffi- 
cient to  call  out  the  resources  of  the  State  on  this  line,  but  who  satisfied  one  branch 
of  the  Legislature,  that  this  Baltimore  connection  might  weaken  the  affections  of  the 
upper  country  to  the  Eastern  schemes  of  improvement,  and  convert  that  part  of  the 
Commonwealth  into  the  "  back  country  of  Baltimore."  These,  he  remarked,  had  been 
the  wayward  notions  of  gentlemen  in  relation  to  their  Western  brethren.  Heretofore, 
they  had  denied  to  them  all  participation  in  the  benefits  of  the  Baltimore  rail-road, 
lest  it  might  diminish  their  passion  for  internal  improvement  by  Virginia.  Now, 
their  political  rights  and  equal  participation  in  the  legislation  of  the  country,  was  to 
be  cruelly  and  unjustly  denied  to  them,  because  they  are  suspected  of  cherishing 
this  passion.  He  enquired,  can  wisdom  approve,  or  experience  warrant  the  infusion 
of  a  principle  into  the  Government,  so  unequal  and  unjust  in  itself,  and  upon  grounds 
so  slight,  and  for  reasons  so  fallacious  ? 

Having  disposed  of  the  debt  of  gratitude  and  the  passion  for  inteimal  improvemerit, 
he  proposed  to  consider  another  ground,  upon  which  it  was  deemed  unsafe  to  admit 
the  West  to  full  participation  in  legislation.  He  said,  it  had  been  contended  with 
great  earnestness  and  plausibility,  and  not  without  effect  on  the  public  mind,  that  the 
taxes  were  so  unequal,  that  when  a  Western  man  paid  one  dollar,  an  Eastern  man 
contributed  from  three  to  four  dollars ;  and  assuming  what  remained  to  be  proved,  it 
was  insisted,  that  the  temptation  to  exorbitant  taxation  on  the  part  of  the  West,  and 
profuse  expenditure  upon  local  objects,  was  so  great  as  to  endanger  the  property  lia- 
ble to  taxation  in  the  East.  He  said,  an  inspection  of  the  documents  from  which 
those  results  were  attempted  to  be  drawn,  would  at  once  expose  the  fallacy  of  the  con- 
clusion at  which  gentlemen  arrived.  He  affirmed,  that  wealth  consisted  in  the  quan- 
tity of  labor,  which  any  individual  held  the  means  of  controlling  and  directing— that 
the  labour  of  a  country  constituted  its  wealth,  and  that  the  products  of  labour,  over 
and  above  the  consumption  of  the  labourers,  constituted  the  aggregate  profits  of  the 
community,  and  that  taxation,  when  properly  regulated,  was  that  portion  of  the  pro- 
fits of  labour,  which  might  be  required  by  the  exigencies  of  the  Government.  Hence, 
it  followed,  that  taxation  to  be  equal,  must  take  in  equal  portions  from  the  labour  of 
the  country — that  testing  the  taxation  of  Virginia  by  this  rule,  and  taking  the  entire 
population,  both  freemen  and  slaves,  as  the  proper  exponent  of  the  labour  of  the  coun- 
try, the  following  results,  he  said,  would  be  fund  accurate. 

The  several  districts  pay  per  head,  as  follows : 


Western  District, 
Valley  do. 
T^hird  do. 
Tide  do. 


Lands  and 

Slaves. 

Horses 

and 

Total 

lots. 

carriages. 

heat 

c.  m. 

c. 

m. 

c. 

m. 

c. 

m. 

11  3 

2 

8 

6 

4 

20 

5 

22  1 

5 

6 

6 

6 

34 

3 

16  8 

14 

0 

4 

5 

35 

3 

15  9 

12 

6 

4 

1 

32 

6 

That  dividing  the  State  by  the  Blue  Ridge,  and  placing  the  taxation  of  each  portion 
in  contrast  with  the  other,  the  following  results  would  be  found : 


Western  District, 
Eastern  do. 


Lands  and 

Slaves. 

Horses  and 

lots. 

carriages. 

c.  m. 

c.  m. 

c.  m. 

16  8.^ 

4  2i 

6  5i 

16  3| 

13  3| 

4  3h 

TotaL 

c.  m. 
27  6^ 
34  Oh 


This  exhibition,  he  said,  would  shew  that  the  labour  of  the  West  is  higher  taxed 
than  that  of  the  East,  in  relation  to  two  out  of  three  of  the  subjects  of  taxation,  and 
differs  inconsiderably  in  the  amount  of  tax  paid  per  head  in  the  different  quarters  of 
the  State.  That  difference,  he  said,  was  owing  to  the  apparently  diminished  amount 
paid  on  land  by  the  extreme  Western  district,  and  which  he  thought  might  be  fully 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


661 


and  satisfactorily  accounted  for,  by  reference  to  present  and  past  systems  of  taxation, 
and  their  influence  on  tJiat  part  of  the  Common n-ealth. 

Before  the  year  1~17.  the  tax  on  land  was  assessed  upon  an  arbitrarily  assumed 
average  of  the  vaiae  in  the  several  districts  of  the  State.  By  the  operation  of  this 
rale  the  inferior  lands  of  the  West  were  taxed  beyond  any  just  regard  to  their  annual 
product,  whether  from  cultivation  or  appreciation  in  the  market,  and  the  consequence 
has  been,  that  a  vast  quantity  of  the  Western  lands  have  become  forfeited  for  the  non- 
payment of  taxes,  and  are  now  vested  in  the  President  and  Directors  of  the  Literary 
Fund.  ISo  means,  he  said,  now  offered  for  ascertainincp  the  number  of  acres  which 
had  been  trnsferred  by  this  process  from  the  assessment  lists,  or  of  the  amount  of  taxes 
and  damages  now  due,  or  annusdly  accruing,  on  lands  so  situated,  or  of  the  amount 
annually  paid  into  the  treasury  for  the  redemption  of  lands  in  this  condition.  Mr.  S. 
said,  that  an  attempt  to  investigate  tliis  subject  at  the  Auditor's  office  had  furnished 
him  with  a  statement  of  the  forfeited  lands  in  one  of  the  Western  counties  only.  From 
this  statement  it  appeared,  that  there  was  forfeited  to  the  Literary  Fund,  in  the  county 
of  Cabell,  3.1.30,552  acres,  charged  -svitli  taxes  and  damages,  amounting  in  the  year 
1>'14,  to  8  19,975.  He  said  this  singular  expose  was  a  melancholy  commentary  on  our 
land  laws  of  17S9;  under  the  operation  of  which,  land  to  nearly  double  the  area  of  the 
coimty,  while  Logan  was  yst  a  part  of  it,  had  been  sold  by  the  Commonwealth,  and 
the  evil  was  daily  increasing  by  new  grants  from  the  land  office. 

Mr.  S.  remarked  that  he  had,  however,  attempted  to  ascertain  what  ought  to  be  the 
probable  product  of  the  land  tax  in  the  county  of  Cabell,  under  a  system  which  as- 
sessed the"  tax  upon  the  land,  and  not  upon  the  pretended  titles  which  the  Common- 
wealth was  daih'  fumisliing.  He  found  the  area  of  that  county  to  be  1,033  square 
miles,  equal  to  661,120  acres;  154,003  acres  only  of  which  were  now  to  be  found  on 
the  land  lists  for  taxation,  and  which  produced  a  revenue  of  S'354. 

Mr.  S.  then  entered  into  a  calculation,  shewing,  that  If  the  residue  of  the  land 
actually  found  in  that  county,  amounting  to  507,117  acres,  was  restored  to  the  tax 
lists,  and  charged  at  the  same  rate  with  that  already  on  the  Commissioners'  books,  it 
would  augment  the  land  tax  of  the  coimty  of  Cabell  1.519 — giving  an  amount  of  re- 
venue from  land  in  that  county,  beyond  the  sura  derived  from  the  same  source,  in 
the  large  populous  countv  of  Accomac.  to  whose  representative  the  Convention  had 
been  indebted  for  so  much  statistical  information — information,  which  however  had 
unfortunatelv  tended  to  mislead  the  public  mind,  as  it  no  where  furnished  the  amount 
paid  in  the  different  quarters  of  the  State,  in  proportion  to  the  labour  employed  in 
each — a  rule  of  contribution  as  generally  true,  and  liable  to  as  few  exceptions,  as  the 
republican  principle,  unquestioned  by  the  friends  of  representative  Government  from 
the  days  of  John  Locke,  to  the  present  time,  that  the  people  for  whose  benefit  all  Gov- 
ernments are  instituted,  hold  in  themselves  the  sovereign  power,  and  in  equal  portions 
as  relates  to  each  other. 

Mr.  S.  remarked,  that  he  did  not  intend  to  follow  into  detail,  the  questions  of  reve- 
nue presented  by  that  gentleman  ;  but  that  he  would  take  occasion  to  remind  him, 
that  if  the  Eastern  peninsula  of  Virginia  contributed  more  to  the  treasury  than  some 
of  the  Western  counties,  it  was  more  than  indemnified  in  its  proportion  of  the  expen- 
diture for  the  support  of  the  Judiciary.  Mr.  S.  said,  that  he  was  satisfied  that  when- 
ever the  paternal  care  of  the  Government  should  give  quiet  and  repose  to  the  West- 
ern settlers,  they  would  not  be  found  deficient  in  contributions,  either  to  the  treasury 
or  to  the  defence  of  the  country. 

Mr.  S.  said,  that  on  examining  the  relative  merits  of  the  propositions  before  the 
Convention,  it  might  not  be  unprofitable  to  look  into  some  of  tliose  which  had  been 
heretofore  pressed  upon  its  consideration.  It  would  be  recollected,  that  Eastern  gen- 
tlemen had  taken  their  stand  upon  a  proposition  vrhich  combined  white  population 
and  taxation  as  the  basis  of  Representation.  He  said,  that  he  was  accustomed  to  re- 
gard himself  as  not  understanding  that,  of  the  results  of  which  he  was  ignorant.  He 
had.  therefore,  put  into  requisition  his  own  arithmetical  skill,  aided  by  two  gentlemen 
particularly  versed  in  calculations — one  of  tlaem  furnished  him  with  tlie  combinations, 
as  follows : 

Western  District,  -  -  -  -  24 

Vallev  District,  -  -  -  -  22 

Midland,  39 

Tide-water,        -----  35 
In  a  House  of  Delegates  composed  of  one  hundred  and  twenty  members. 

In  this  computation,  men  and  dollars  were  regarded  as  units  of  the  same  value,  pro- 
ducing about  seventy-seven  Delegates  from  the  white  population,  and  forty-three  from 
the  taxed  property.  Its  application  to  the  extreme  Western  and  Ea.stern  districts, 
was  found  to  place  the  inhabitants  of  each  in  the  following  relations  to  the  other :  In 
the  Western  district,  7,557  white  persons,  paying  taxes  to  the  amount  of  1,407  dollars, 
would  be  entitled  to  one  Delegate,  wliile  in  the  Eastern  district,  4,700  white  inhabi- 
tants, paying  4,126  dollars,  would  be  entitled  to  the  same  representation.    By  this  po- 


662 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


litical  arithmetic,  an  excess  in  taxation  of  2,719  dollars,  was  to  be  compensated,  by  an 
excess  in  persons,  equal  to  2,857,  which  balances  at  the  rate  of  95  cents  per  head. 
This  combination,  although  it  rated  our  Western  citizens  as  five  franc  pieces,  and 
their  Eastern  brethren  as  Louis  d'ors,  was  found  more  favorable  to  Western  equality 
than  was  admissible  by  the  principles  of  combination,  avowed  and  explained  by  the  au- 
thors of  that  notable  project.  Their  principles  of  combination  required,  that  to  ascer- 
tain the  number  of  Delegates  to  which  any  particular  district  would  be  entitled,  it  was 
first  necessary  to  find  what  number  would  be  given  by  white  population ;  and,  second- 
ly, what  number  the  tax  paid  by  the  district  would  entitle  it  to.  The  comlsined  re- 
sults divided,  or  averaged,  was  then  assumed  as  the  proper  representation.  The  ap- 
plication of  the  rule  thus  modified,  was  found  to  give  to  the 

Western  District,  -  -  -  -  21 

Valley,  ....  21 

Midland,  ....  41 

Eastern,  -  -  -  -  37 

120 

Following  out  the  results  of  this  scheme,  Mr.  S.  said,  it  would  have  required  eight 
thousand,  six  hundred  and  thirty-seven  of  the  white  population  of  the  "West,  contri- 
buting to  the  treasury  $  1,608,  to  send  one  delegate,  while  in  the  Eastern  district, 
four  thousand,  eight  hundred  and  ten  persons,  paying  $  3,G65,  would  have  been  enti- 
tled to  equal  Representation.  Pursuing  the  inquiry,  he  said,  that  it  was  found,  that 
the  political  rights  of  four  thousand,  one  hundred  and  sixty-five  persons,  wDuld  be  sa- 
crificed, in  each  delegate  district  of  the  West,  to  $  2,295  excess  of  taxation,  in  each 
delegate  district  of  the  East.  In  thvis  comparing  the  measure  of  political  rights,  in 
the  two  extreme  districts  of  the  State,  he  said,  it  was  found,  that  four  thousand, 
one  hundred  and  sixty-five  white  persons  in  the  West,  were  required  to  surrender  all 
their  rights  in  the  Government  on  the  payment  of  $  2,295,  beyond  the  average  taxa- 
tion by  an  Eastern  district.  By  this  scale  for  ascertaining  the  relative  political  weight 
of  men  and  money,  it  was  found,  that  the  highest  attributes  of  men,  the  dearest  im- 
munities of  freemen,  v.^ere  to  be  rated  at  fifty-five  cents  per  head.  This  political  mo- 
rality and  equality,  he  said,  had  been  supported  by  the  votes  of  nearly  one-half  of  the 
Convention,  but  happily  for  the  liberties  of  the  country,  it  had  not  secured  a  majority. 
The  next  scheme  for  the  security  of  property,  as  its  friends  were  pleased  to  denomi- 
nate it,  but  which  to  his  mind,  looked  to  power  and  power  alone,  was  the  proposition 
of  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier,  (Mr.  Scott,)  to  apportion  the  Senate  to  taxation 
alone — a  proposition,  which  if  adopted,  would  have  given  in  that  body,  equal  politi- 
cal weight  to  eighteen  thousand,  four  hundred  inhabitants  of  the  lowlands,  with 
ninety  thousand,  six  hundred  and  ninety-two  inhabitants  of  the  Western  district;  and 
even  this  scheme,  he  said,  had  been  rejected  by  but  a  small  majority.  Mr.  S.  then 
entered  into  a  comparison  of  the  relative  merits  of  the  resolution  under  consideration, 
agreed  to  in  Committee  of  the  Whole,  and  those  submitted  by  the  gentleman  from 
Frederick,  (Mr.  Cooke.)  which  had  for  their  object,  a  House  of  Delegates,  founded 
on  white  population,  and  a  Senate  based  on  Federal  numbers^  He  said,  that  he  had 
used  throughout  in  his  computations  of  the  present  population  of  the  Commonwealth, 
the  tables  furnished  by  the  Auditor ;  he  did  not  maintain  their  entire  accuracy,  but 
believed  they  approximated  the  truth  sufficiently  near  for  general  purposes  of  enquiry 
and  comparison. 

According  to  those  tables,  he  said,  the  apportionment  of  a  House  of  Delegates  of 
one  hundred  and  twenty-eight  members  ought  to  give  to  the 

Western  District  34 
Valley,  26 
Midland,  37 
Eastern,  31 
The  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  (Mr.  Gordon,)  concurred  in  by 
the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  gave  as  the  present  apportionment  in  a  House  of  one 
hundred  and  twenty-seven  memibers,  the  following  proportions : 

Western  District,  29 
Valley,  24" 
Midland,  40 
Eastern,  34 
Placing  a  majority  in  the  hands  of  the  country  east  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  of  twenty-one, 
while  the  basis  of  white  population,  denied  to  that  country  a  majority  larger  than 
eight.    It  proposed  a  Senate  of  thirty-two  members,  distributing  thirteen  West  of  the 
Blue  Ridge,  and  nineteen  East  of  that  range  of  mountains— while  the  present  appor- 
tionment of  that  body,  enlarging  it  to  thirty-two  members,  gives  a  Representation 
equal  to  twelve  and  twenty.    He  said,  that  contrasting  this  scheme  with  the  results 
of  white  population  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  the  present  condition  of  the  Se- 
nate, it  sacrifices  thirteen  delegates  in  the  West,  and  yields  one  additional  Senator  to 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION'. 


663 


that  district.  Should  the  future  Senate  be  composed  with  reference  to  Federal  num- 
bers, the  relative  apportionment  of  that  body,  he  said,  would  undergo  no  sensible 
change,  as  he  had  found  upon  computation  that  the  West  would  be  entitled  to  eleven 
and  a  quarter  Senators,  in  the  present  state  of  the  population.  jSIt.  S.  proceeded  to 
remark  upon  the  effect  of  the  proposed  apportionments,  upon  the  district  West  of  the 
AUeffhany  mountains.  That  country,  he  said,  was  divided  into  twentv-six  counties, 
now  sending  fifty-two  delegates,  to  a  House  composed  of  two  hundred  and  fourteen 
members,  equal  to  thirty-one  in  a  House  composed  of  one  hundred  and  twenty-eight 
mumbers;  that  it  now  sent  four  and  a  half  Senators,  nearly  equal  to  six  in  a  Senate  of 
thirty-two — and  what  were  the  inducements,  he  asked,  for  gentlemen  representing 
that  country,  to  reduce  its  present  influence  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  without  any 
acquisition  in  the  Senate;  a  sacrifice  not  called  for,  in  support  of  any  principle  con- 
nected with  R.epreseatative  Government,  but  on  the  contrary  avowedly  supported  on 
the  ground,  that  it  was  founded  on  no  principle  whatever,  except  tiie  equitable  no- 
tions of  its  author  .'  If,  said  he,  the  Western  delegation  can  be  justified,  in  accepting 
a  present  apportionment,  so  unequal  and  unjust,  in  relation  to  their  constituents,  that 
justification  must  be  found  in  the  salutary  operations  of  a  future  rule  of  apportion- 
ment. The  gentleman  from  Albemarie,  he  said,  had  given  them  none  to  appeal  to  : 
that  presented  by  the  gentleman  from  ZS'orthampton ,  (Mr.  Upshur,)  as  it  stands  now 
amended  by  the  Committee  of  the  "Whole,  was  alone  pressed  upon  the  acceptance  of 
the  West,  by  either  of  tiie  gentlemen. 

He  said,  it  came  to  us  recommended  by  the  votes  and  advice  of  the  most  revered 
and  respected  members  of  the  House.  It  was  urged  as  a  measure  of  concihation  and 
compromise,  as  one  that  called  for  equal  concession  of  the  different  grounds  sustained 
here;  that  while  one  side  had  contended  for  taxation  and  populafion  combined,  or 
Federal  numbers  as  its  equivalent,  the  other  had  insisted  on  white  population  alone 
as  the  true  basis  of  Government :  That  taking  those  t  wo  as  the  extreme  rules,  their 
combination,  and  the  average  of  both,  ought  to  be  occupied  as  the  middle  ground  : 
That  here  equal,  and  only  equal  sacrifices  of  opinion,  were  made  on  the  altar  of  concords 
So  strong  was  this  appeal,  so  ably  was  it  enforced  by  the  highest  reasoning  powers  of 
this  country,  that  he  said  he  had  been  for  some  time  in  deliberation  as  to  the  vote 
wliich  he  ought  to  give.  An  examination  of  the  whole  ground,  and  a  comparison  of 
the  concessions  required,  had  been  necessary  to  convince  liim  of  the  unequal,  and 
consequently  unjust  abandonment,  which  was  asked  at  his  hands. 

The  principle  atHrmed  on  one  side  was,  that  the  people  were  capable  of  self-go- 
vernment, and  ought  to  participate  equally  in  its  formation,  and  that  a  majority  ought 
to  give  the  direction  of  its  action.  On  the  other  side  it  was  contended  that  a  portion 
of  the  people  ought  to  hold  an  increased  influence  in  the  formation  and  direction  of 
Government,  either  in  proportion  to  the  taxes  paid  by  the  different  quarters  of  the 
State,  or  to  the  number  of  slaves  held  in  the  different  portions  of  the  Commonwealth, 
by  the  application  of  which  rule  a  minority  of  the  people  from  the  adventitious  cir- 
cumstances of  wealth  or  situation,  might,  and  probably  would,  have  the  Government 
in  their  hands,  and  exercise  it  independent  of,  and  uncontrouled  by,  the  majority. 
He  denied,  that  the  proposed  accommodation  attained  middle  ground,  and  insisted, 
that  it  only  increased  the  numbers  of  the  minority  to  whom  it  proposed  to  confide  the 
Government,  and  illustrated  the  effects  of  the  proposed  compromise  of  the  question 
of  future  apportionments  by  supposing  three  hundred  thousand  free  white  citizens  to 
reside  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  and  two  hundred  thousand  East  of  that  Ridge.  He 
said,  the  slave  population  in  the  East  exceeded  that  of  the  West,  three  hundred  and 
forty-six  thousand,  seven  hundred  and  seventy-two,  and  if  three-tenths  were  intro- 
duced into  the  body  politic,  it  would  give  an  increase  of  political  units  to  the  East  of 
one  hundred  and  four  thousand;  with  the  aid  of  which,  two  Eastern  men  would 
balance  three  Western  men,  as  long  as  their  relative  state  of  the  population  remained^ 
and  this  pernicious  element  of  power  continued.  Its  influence  would  not,  he  said,  be 
limited  to  the  controul  of  the  action  of  the  majority,  when  that  action  might  be  at 
variance  with  the  interests  or  Vv'ishes  of  the  minority^  but  would  place  the  entire  law- 
making power  in  the  hands  of  the  minority,  to  be  exercised  independent  of  the  ma- 
jority, and  uncontrouled  by  tlieir  unanimous  wishes  and  entire  interests.  If  it  was 
determined  to  perpetuate  power  in  lowland  hands,  and  to  balance  three  of  his  con- 
stituents, with  two  of  the  favoured  district,  it  was  of  but  little  consequence  on  what 
pretext  the  injurious  and  degrading  pwlicy  was  made  to  rest :  no  gilding  could  induce 
lum  to  swallow  the  pill;  it  must  produce  nausea  in  whatever  combination  it  may  be 
given — and  cannot  long  be  retained  by  those  upon  whom  you  force  it. 

W^ith  this  view  of  the  subject,  he  said,  he  never  could  consent  to  the  proposed 
measure  of  compromise ;  he  never  could  aflirm  a  principle  that  denied  to  the  people 
of  Virginia  the  capacity  of  self-crovernment,  and  from  which  resulted  tlie  repubhcan 
rule,  tliat  the  interests  of  society  could  onl}--  be  confided  to  a  majority  of  its  members. 
He  thought,  tliat  it  was  fully  as  objectionable  to  give  one  part  of  tlie  State  increased  po- 
litical power  over  another,  by  reason  of  its  wealth,  as  it  would  be  to  give  tlie  inliabi- 


664 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


tants  of  the  same  county  uneqal  portions  of  political  power  in  consequence  of  the 
disparity  of  their  fortunes.  On  turning  his  mind  to  what  would  be  an  equal  conces- 
sion by  the  rival  parties,  he  called  to  his  recollection  what  had  been  affirmed  by  dis- 
tinguished gentlemen  in  the  past  debate,  (Mr.  Giles  and  Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour.)  By  those 
gentlemen  the  right  of  the  majority,  to  give  the  direction  of  the  Government,  was 
defended  :  they  then  only  contended,  that  the  rights  of  the  minority  ought  to  be  re- 
spected in  all  just  Governments,  and  that  a  sufficient  portion  of  political  power  ought 
to  be  exercised  by  the  minority,  to  stay  the  action  of  the  majority,  when  not  directed 
by  the  interest  of  all — A  rule  so  just  in  itself,  so  salutary  in  practice,  readily  met  with 
his  assent :  he  was  desirous  of  carrying  it  into  effect  by  restrictions  on  the  Legislative 
powers  of  the  Government.  He  had  supposed,  that  restraining  clauses  would  as  amply 
protect  property  in  all  its  various  relations,  as  the  freedom  of  religion ;  the  freedom  of 
the  press;  and  the  great  shield  of  civil  liberty,  the  writ  of  habeas  corpus  ;  but  so  earnest, 
and  so  pervading  seemed  the  fears  of  the  Eastern  gentlemen,  that  he  had  at  length  come 
to  the  conclusion  of  giving  them  security  on  their  own  principles  of  controuling  power 
by  power.  Upon  this  hypothesis,  he  had  consented  to  give  in  connection  with  the 
House  of  Delegates  flowing  from  white  population,  a  Senate  based  on  Federal  num- 
bers. In  doing  so,  he  had  satisfied  himself  that  the  fears  of  the  East,  whether  real  or 
imaginary,  must  be  buried  in  a  branch  of  the  Government  flowing  in  an  eminent  de- 
gree directly  from  themselves,  charged  with  their  peculiar  interests  and  safety,  and 
immediately  responsible  to  Eastern  constituents.  This  principle  of  security  and  of 
compromise  had  the  further  recommendation  of  calling  into  existence  the  Legislative 
part  of  the  Government  from  two  rival  elements.  To  the  people  it  gave  the  popular 
branch ;  to  the  slave-holders  it  gave  the  supervising  and  controuling  body — it  equally 
denied  the  powers  of  the  Government  to  numbers  alone,  or  to  the  wealth  of  the 
country  in  the  hands  of  its  holders.  Although  it  was  objected  with  much  force,  that 
this  compromise  of  interests  would  enable  the  minority,  to  paralize  the  will  of  the 
majority,  yet,  it  was  unquestionably  more  in  unison  with  the  equal  rights  of  all,  that 
the  action  of  the  majority  should  be  stayed,  when  the  consent  of  the  minority  should 
be  denied,  than  commit  the  Government  to  a  minority  of  the  people,  with  the  power 
of  applying  its  action  to  all  persons,  and  all  things,  regardless  of  the  interests,  the 
feelings,  or  the  wishes  of  the  majority. 

If  protection  is  really  the  object  of  Eastern  gentlemen,  they  will  not  hesitate  to 
accept  a  Senate  so  formed — its  members  returning  to  Eastern  constituents,  will  pos- 
sess their  confidence  in  the  degree  in  which  Eastern  interests  have  been  the  objects 
of  their  care.  The  influence  claimed  for  the  slave  property  will  be  doubled  in  this 
branch  of  the  Legislature — one  hundred  thousand  white  persons  of  the  East,  with 
their  political  influence  increased  in  the  Senate,  by  three-fifths  of  the  slaves,  may  re- 
ject bills  which  unite  in  their  favour  three  hundred  thousand  of  the  white  population 
of  the  West. 

Should  this  division  of  the  power  of  Legislation  be  rejected,  can  the  people  of 
Lower  Virginia  suppose — can  the  world  believe,  that  the  protection  of  property  has 
been  the  object  sought  for  here  Will  not  the  disguise  be  thrown  off?  Will  not  this 
question  shew  the  most  determined  effort  ever  made  in  the  American  States,  to  ren- 
der the  many  the  vassals  of  the  few  ? 

For  the  safety  of  the  State  he  hoped  this  lust  of  power  would  be  abandoned,  and  a 
spirit  of  compromise  and  conciliation  really  adopted — a  compromise,  which  giving  to 
one  branch  of  the  Legislature,  the  principles  contended  for  on  one  side,  embodies  in 
the  other,  the  elements  attempted  to  be  infused  throughout. 

To  this  spirit  of  compromise,  he  yielded  his  full  assent,  not  because  the  safety  of 
any  part  of  the  country  required  it — not  because  the  just  principles  of  Representative 
Government  demanded  it;  but  as  the  price  of  concord,  harmony,  and  the  future  tran- 
quillity of  the  State. 

Beyond  this,  he  could  not  go;  other  or  further  sacrifices  of  the  just  rights  of  his 
constituents  he  could  not  make.  If  it  should  be  the  pleasure  of  gentlemen  to  force 
upon  them  the  cruel  and  galling  yoke  with  which  they  were  threatened,  he  took 
leave  to  assure  them,  that  the  polls  would  show  its  indignant  rejection. 

If  the  rights  of  the  Western  people  are  now  to  be  denied  to  them,  he  would  do  no 
act  to  bar  their  future  claims  to  an  equal  participation  in  the  Government.  He  had 
fully  weighed  the  subject,  and  was  prepared  to  await  the  growing  influence  of 
wealth,  numbers,  and  intelligence  in  the  West,  and  a  returning  sense  of  justice  and 
equality  in  the  East,  rather  than  take  a  Constitution  affording  but  a  meagre  and  in- 
adequate relief,  and  which  might  hereafter  be  holden  to  release  all  that  is  not  now  ob- 
tained. He  begged  gentlemen  to  consider,  that  a  majority  in  Convention  represen- 
ted a  minority  of  the  people,  and  how  extremely  idle  and  futile  it  must  be,  to  offer  a 
Constitution  for  acceptance,  which  could  not  be  received  by  those  who  are  seeking 
reform  without  placing  themselves  in  colonial  inferiority,  if  not  in  a  state  of  vas- 
salage :  How  vain  it  was  for  a  Government  like  ours,  to  offer,  on  the  demand  of  re- 
form, less  than  the  people  would  accept.    They  will  not  be  appeased  by  such  an  illu- 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


665 


sory  answer  to  their  claims,  they  will  but  reiterate  their  demands  in  language  which 
must  be  heard  and  cannot  be  disobeyed. 

He  asked,  if  the  protection  now  oftered  in  the  Senate  should  be  refused,  will  not 
even  the  people  of  Eastern  Virginia  perceive  that  it  is  the  lust  of  power,  and  not  the 
protection  of  property,  for  which  the  rights  of  their  fellow-citizens  of  the  West  have 
been  sacrificed.  Such  discovery,  he  thought,  must  unquestionably  follow  the  present 
artificial  and  groundless  excitement,  and  bring  with  it  that  calm  sense  of  justice, 
which  will  secure  to  the  people  of  every  part  of  the  Commonwealth,  tlieir  equal  and 
unalienable  rights. 

If,  however,  these  anticipations  should  not  be  realized,  and  the  cold-hearted  and 
cruel  policy  should  prevail,  which  holds  the  Western  Virginians  unsafe  depositories 
of  equal  portions  of  the  political  power  of  the  Commonwealth,  they  may,  and  I  trust, 
will  submit  as  men  who  know  their  duties  to  their  country,  although  they  may  feel 
most  sensibly  its  injustice. 

He  said,  it  had  been  the  pride  of  the  men  of  the  mountains  to  witness  the  metro- 
politan honors  of  the  lowlands.  They  have  contributed  freely  from  a  common  treasury 
to  the  enlargement  and  embellishment  of  the  Eastern  towns — for  all  the  public  works 
of  the  East,  they  have  voted  freely- — they  have  regarded  the  genius  and  talents  of 
Eastern  men,  as  shedding  equal  glory  and  renown  on  every  part  of  the  Common- 
wealth. But  what  must  be  their  future  feelings,  under  the  deprivations  of  poUtical 
rights  with  which  the}^  are  now  threatened ! 

He  begged  gentlemen  to  pause  before  they  severed  those  cords  of  affection,  which 
had  so  long  and  so  strongly  bound  the  people  of  the  West  to  those  of  the  East. 

Mr.  Scott  now  moved  that  the  present  subject  be  laid  upon  the  table. 

Mr.  Doddridge  enquired  for  the  reasons  in  favour  of  such  a  measure. 

Mr.  Scott  replied,  that  no  respectable  majority  could  be  obtained  for  the  present 
plan,  and  that  such  a  majority  could  be  obtained  for  that  of  Messrs.  Gordon  and  Up- 
shur's. 

Mr.  Powell  remonstrated  against  so  unprecedented  a  course,  as  that  the  avowed 
enemy  of  a  proposition  should  lay  it  upon  the  table,  for  the  sake  of  palming  upon  the 
consideration  of  the  House,  against  the  wishes  of  its  friends,  a  proposition  to  which 
he  was  an  open  enemy. 

Mr.  Gordon  said,  he  should  vote  in  favour  of  Mr.  Scott's  motion.  He  should  not 
change  his  vote  upon  the  subject  of  the  compromise.  He  thought  the  Convention 
had  had  experience  enough  to  see  that  the  discussion  of  this  white  basis  could  only 
have  a  tendency  to  protract  its  deliberations  to  no  end.  He  should  vote  to  lay  it  upon 
the  table,  and  take  up  what  Vv^as  a  practical  scheme.  He  saw  plainly  that  the  present 
discussion  would  be  interminable.  If  the  Convention  were  to  agree  on  any  Consti- 
tution at  all,  the  period  allotted  for  that  work  by  law,  was  very  short.  The  subject 
had  already  been  discussed  for  two  months,  and  why  should  more  time  be  wasted 
upon  its  discussion? 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  he  v.'^as  now  the  more  disposed  to  proceed.  The  gentleman 
from  Albemarle  is  for  laying  this  subject  upon  the  table,  and  thus  escaping  any  direct 
vote  upon  the  question  of  a  white  basis  in  the  House  of  Delegates.  The  ayes  and 
noes  would  never  be  recorded,  and  the  votes  of  members  forever  concealed.  He  de- 
manded the  ayes  and  noes  on  the  present  motion.    They  were  ordered  accordingly. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  that  if  this  motion  should  succeed,  and  the  gentleman  should  call 
up  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Cooke,)  against  the  will  of 
the  mover,  he  should  vote  against  that  proposition. 

Mr.  Gordon  disavowed  all  design  of  concealing  from  his  constituents  or  from  the 
world,  any  vote  he  should  give,  or  any  thought  he  entertained  on  the  subjects  before 
the  Convention. 

Mr,  Doddridge  said,  that  that  gentleman  was  one  of  the  last  whom  he  should  sus- 
pect of  such  a  purpose,  but  such  would  nevertheless  be  the  effect. 

Mr.  Scott  said,  in  reply  to  Mr.  Powell,  that  if  the  course  was  unprecedented,  or  un- 
parliamentary,  he  had  learned  it  from  the  example  of  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun, 
(Mr.  Mercer.)  who  had  pursued  such  a  course  toward  propositions  which  he  had 
sought  to  consider  against  the  wishes  of  all  their  friends,  and  had  consumed  two  whole 
days  in  the  attempt  to  force  a  vote  upon  them. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  he  wished  the  gentleman  would  be  guided  by  his  example  in 
some  other  respects  :  as  to  this,  he  was  in  an  error :  what  he  (Mr.  M.)  had  endea- 
voured to  procure  was  not  the  vote  on  any  one  proposition  against  the  will  of  its 
friends,  but  on  two  different  propositions  combined. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  what  his  friend  from  Fauquier  probably  alluded  to  was  the  motion 
of  Mr.  JMercer  to  pass  over  the  proposition  of  INIr.  Upshur,  when  it  had  first  been 
moved  in  Committee  of  the  Whole  ;  which  motion  was  equivdent  to  laying  it  on  the 
table. 

Mr.  Mercer  replied,  it  was  one  thing  to  call  up  a  proposition  icith  the  consent  of  its 
mover,  and  quite  another  to  call  it  up  against  that  consent.    He  had  had  the  consent 

34 


666 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


of  Mr.  Upshur  before  he  made  his  motion.  He  had  called  up  the  amendment  of  the 
gentleman  from  Goochland,  (Mr.  Pleasants,)  out  of  compliment  to  that  gentleman, 
whom  he  considered  as  prevented  by  motives  of  delicacy  from  making  the  motion 
himself.  It  was  altogether  from  respect  to  the  gentleman  from  Goochland  he  had 
done  so,  and  because  he  thought  the  critical  moment  had  arrived  for  its  adoption. 

Mr.  Pleasants  said,  he  could  not  doubt  the  gentleman  had  been  actuated  by  the 
motives  he  now  professed ;  but  he  had  thought  at  the  time  that  before  the  gentleman 
offered  his  (Mr.  P's)  amendment,  he  might  have  asked  his  consent :  the  more  par- 
ticularly as  the  gentleman  had  two  or  three  days  before  in  a  private  interview,  taken 
great  pains  indeed  to  convince  him  it  was  impossible  it  could  pass,  and  had  told  him 
that  the  Chief  Justice  himself  would  vote  against  it. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  he  had  not  asked  the  gentleman  from  Goochland,  because  he 
could  not  liave  given  his  consent  to  have  his  amendment  moved  by  another  without 
the  same  breach  of  delicacy  as  would  have  attended  the  motion,  if  made  by  himself. 
As  to  the  fate  of  the  resolution  when  the  gentleman  first  moved  it,  he  was  not  pre- 
pared to  vote  for  it.  He  afterwards  learned  it  might  get  forty-eight  votes.  He  was 
afterwards  informed  by  the  Chief  Justice  himself,  in  the  presence  of  the  whole  Con- 
vention, that  he  would  vote  for  it.  He  had  laboured  hard  to  effect  a  compromise,  and 
had  devoted  several  days  to  that  effect:  if  it  should  finally  prove  abortive,  he  should 
still  look  back  upon  those  endeavours  with  heartfelt  pleasure. 

The  question  was  now  put  on  the  motion  of  Mr.  Scott  to  lay  the  first  resolution  of 
the  Legislative  Committee  on  the  table,  and  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax.  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Clopton,  Ptlason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh 
of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline, 
Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Pren- 
tis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale, 
Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 50. 

JVoes — Prfessrs.  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson, 
M'Coy,  Moore, Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne, 
Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  JNaylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton, 
George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews, 
Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke, 
Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Clay  tor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Stuart  and  Thompson — 46. 

Mr.  Scott  now  moved  to  take  up  Mr.  Cooke's  amendment. 

Mr.  Mercer  asked  the  ayes  and  noes  on  that  motion,  which  were  ordered  accord- 
ingly. 

Mr.  Cooke  said,  if  the  amendment  was  taken  up  at  this  time,  it  would  be  utterly 
against  his  wishes. 

Mr.  Sunnners  said,  here  Avas  a  proposition,  which  had  been  offered  at  first  in  Con- 
vention, and  by  them  had  been  referred  to  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  ;  had  not  been 
considered  by  that  Committee,  nor  reported  by  them  to  the  House,  and  while  on  the 
other  hand  there  was  a  proposition  which  had  been  referred  to  the  same  Committee 
of  the  Whole:  hadheen  considered  there;  had  been  reported  with  an  amendment 
to  the  House ;  and  which  on  every  ground  of  fairness  ought  first  to  claim  the  notice 
of  the  Convention,  and  yet  the  former  was  now  to  be  forced  upon  the  House,  con- 
trary  to  the  avowed  wish  of  its  mover,  and  of  all  its  friends.  Why  was  this  ?  What 
had  brought  this  bantling  of  the  West  into  such  great  and  such  sudden  favour  with 
its  worst  and  bitterest  foes.'  Why  did  they  seize  upon  it  and  compel  the  Convention 
to  take  it  up Why  was  it  thrust  on  those  who  were  desirous  to  reject  it  ?  Could  the 
gentlemen  suppose  that  any  votes  were  to  be  gained  or  lost  by  taking  it  up  now  ?  He 
trusted  it  would  be  left  to  slumber  in  quiet  in  the  arms  of  its  parent. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  he  could  very  readily  answer  the  gentleman's  enquiry  why  this 
bantling  was  now  to  be  brought  forth :  the  purpose  was  this  :  that  it  might  be  killed. 

Mr.  Scott  denied  the  imputation  of  unfairness.  Though  this  bantling  had  not  been 
taken  up  in  Committee  of  the  Whole,  its  twin  brother  had  been,  and  voted  down. 
If  the  gentlemen  wished  to  amend  this,  the  field  was  open.  Where  was  the  un- 
fairness 

The  question  on  considering,  at  this  time,  the  proposition  of  Mr.  Cooke  was  then 
put,  and  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows: 

Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax, 
Logan,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of 
Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes, 
Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes. 
and  Perrin — 46. 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


667 


jVbe^— Messrs.  Clopton,  Anderson,  CofFman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  John- 
son, M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Venable,  iVIadison,  Mercer,  Fitz- 
hugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor, 
Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars, 
Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Offlesby,'  Duncan,  Laidley,  Smnmers,  See,  Doddridge, 
-Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke, "Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders, 
Cabell,  Stuart,  Bayly  and  Upshur— 50. 

So  the  House  refused  to  take  up  Mr.  Cooke's  amendment. 

Mr.  Scott  now  offered  to  take  up  the  proposition  of  Mr.  Upshur  as  amended  which 
■was  agreed  to. 

It  was  then  read  as  follows  : 

"  1.  Resolved,  That  the  representation  in  the  Senate  and  House  of  Delegates  of 
Virginia,  shall  be  apportioned  as  follows  : 

There  shall  be  thirteen  Senators  west  of  the  Blue  Ridge  of  Mountains,  and  nine- 
teen east  of  those  Mountains.  There  shall  be  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  one  hun- 
dred and  twenty-seven  members,  of  whom  twenty-nine  shall  be  elected  from  the  dis- 
trict west  of  the  Alleghany  Mountains ;  twenty-four  from  the  Valley  between  the  Al- 
leghany and  Blue  Ridge ;  forty  from  the  Blue  Ridge  to  the  head  of  Tide-water,  and. 
tliirty-four  thence  below. 

"2.  Resolved,  That  the  Legislature  shall  re-arrange  the  representation  in  both 
Houses  of  the  General  Assembly,  onee  in  every  years,  upon  a  fair  average 

of  the  following  ratios,  to  wit : 
First,  of  white  population  : 

"  Secoiid,  of  Federal  numbers  : 

"Provided,  That  the  number  of  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  never  exceed  , 
nor  the  number  of  the  Senate,  ." 

Mr.  Powell  now  moved  as  an  amendment,  that  all  afler  the  word  "Resolved,"  be 
stricken  out,  and  the  following  be  inserted  in  lieu  thereof,  viz  :  "  That  in  the  appor- 
tionment of  representation  in^the  House  of  Delegates,  regard  should  be  had  to  the 
white  population  exclusively." 

Mr.  Powell  said,  his  object  was  to  give  an  opportunity  for  recording  the  vote  on 
that  proposition  distinctly,  and  he  therefore  demanded  the  ayes  and  noes.  They  were 
erdered  by  the  House. 

Mr  Gordon  said,  that  while  his  opinions  remained  unchanged  as  to  the  principle 
en  which  representation  ought  to  be  based,  yet  his  own  proposition  had  been  offered 
as  a  compromise,  and  he  was  reluctantly  compelled,  since  gentlemen  would  force  a 
vote  on  the  present  question  in  its  naked  form,  to  vote  against  it  and  in  favour  of  his 
own  :  though  if  at  liberty  to  follow  his  own  feelings  and  wishes,  he  should  certainly 
vote  for  a  white  basis  alone. 

The  ayes  and  noes  were  then  called  and  recorded  as  follows  : 

jlyes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson, 
M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Os- 
borne, Cooke,  jPowell,  Griggs,  iSIason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pen- 
dleton, George,  M  jNIillan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Ma- 
thews, Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of 
Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Stuart  and  Thomp- 
son— 4(5. 

JVoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Clopton,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh 
of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  ^ladison,  Stanard,  Hollada}",  P»,oane,  Taylor  of  Caroline, 
Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall, 
Pr^ntis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  iMartin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale, 
Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 50. 

So  the  amendment  of  jNIr.  Powell  was  rejected,  (and  the  question  of  the  W'hite 
basis  settled  by  a  distinct  vote  in  the  negative.) 

The  question  now  recurring  on  the  proposition  of  Messrs.  Gordon  and  Upshur, 

Mr.  Gordon  moved,  that  the  two  parts  of  the  proposition  be  divided,  and  the  ques- 
tion first  put  on  the  first  portion  of  it :  it  was  so  divided  accordingly,  and  the  question 
being  first  put  on  agreeing  to  the  following : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  representation  in  the  Senate  and  House  of  Delegates  of  Vir- 
ginia, shall  be  apportioned  as  follows  : 

There  shall  be  thirteen  Senators  west  of  the  Blue  Ridge  of  Mountains,  and  nine- 
teen east  of  those  Mountains. 

"  There  shall  be  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  one  hundred  and  twenty-seven  mem- 
bers, of  whom  twenty-nine  shall  be  elected  from  the  district  west  of  the  Alleghany 
Mountain  ;  twenty-four  from  the  Valley  between  the  Alleghany  and  Blue  Ridge  ;  and 
forty  from  the  Blue  Ridge  to  the  head  of  Tide-water;  and  thirty-four  thence  below." 

It  was  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows : 


668 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Clopton,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of 
Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline, 
Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Pren- 
tis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale, 
Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin. — 50. 

Noes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffraan,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson, 
M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Os- 
borne, Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pen- 
dleton, George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Ma- 
thews, Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of 
Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Stuart  and 
Thompson — 46. 

The  question  was  then  put  on  the  following : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Legislature  shall  re-arrange  the  representation  in  both  Houses 
of  the  General  Assembly,  once  in  every  J^^rs,  upon  a  fair  average  of  the  fol- 

lowing ratios,  to  wit: 

*'  First,  white  population  : 
Second,  Federal  numbers  : 

"  Provided,  That  the  number  of  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  never  exceed  , 
nor  the  number  of  the  Senate,  ." 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  he  should  vote  against  the  scheme  with  the  view  of  substituting 
another  plan  to  equalize  the  representation,  should  the  increase  of  population  be  such 
as  to  justify  it.  He  should  propose  some  change  in  the  numbers  and  proportions  of 
the  representation  from  the  several  divisions  of  the  State.  His  scheme  was  bottomed 
on  principles  which  he  could  not  give  up ;  but  he  again  assured  gentlemen  that  he 
should  be  in  a  great  degree  regardless  of  the  details. 

Mr.  Leigh  then  presented  to  the  House  the  following,  v/hich  he  accompanied  with 
explanatory  remarks  that  would  be  unintelligible  if  reported  separately. 

"  That  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  consist  of  one  hundred  and  thirty-nine  mem- 
bers, and  the  representation  therein  shall  be  apportioned  as  follows : 

"  The  twenty-six  counties  lying  west  of  the  Alleghany,  shall  have  thirty-two 
Delegates. 

"  The  fourteen  counties  lying  between  the  Alleghany  and  Blue  Ridge,  shall  have 
twenty-four  Delegates. 

"  The  twenty-nine  counties  lying  east  of  the  Blue  Ridge  and  above  Tide-water, 
shall  have  forty-five  Delegates. 

^ "  And  the  thirty-six  counties  and  four  towns  lying  on  Tide-water,  shall  have  thirty- 
eight  Delegates. 

"  No  more  new  counties  shall  ever  be  formed  of  the  country  lying  east  of  the 
Blue  Ridge ;  but  the  Legislature  may  in  its  discretion,  from  time  to  time,  a  majority 
of  the  whole  number  of  both  Houses  concurring,  whensoever  the  increase  of  the  po- 
pulation of  the  country  west  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  and  the  more  convenient  adminis- 
tration of  justice  and  police  shall  require,  form  new  counties  not  exceeding  ten,  out 
of  the  territory  lying  west  of  the  Blue  Ridge ;  and  whenever  such  new  county  shall 
be  formed,  an  additional  Delegate  shall  be  allowed  to  the  country  west  of  the  Blue 
Ridge. 

"  And  the  Legislature  having  respect  to  the  relative  state  of  population  of  the  re- 
spective counties,  cities,  towns,  and  election  districts,  and  a  majority  of  the  whole 
number  of  both  Houses  concurring,  may,  at  any  time,  allow  one  additional  Delegate 
to  any  county,  city,  town,  or  election  district,  now  existing,  or  to  be  formed,  and  to 
which  only  one  Delegate  shall  in  the  first  instance  be  allowed  ;  so  that  not  more  than 
two  Delegates  shall  ever  be  allowed  to  any  county,  city,  or  election  district;  and  so 
that  the  number  of  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  never  exceed  one  hundred  and  sixty 
members." 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


669 


6  Counties,  2  each, 
20      do.      1  each, 

Brooke, 

Cabell, 

Giles, 

Grayson, 

Greenbrier, 

Harrison, 

Kanawha, 

Lee, 

Lewis, 

Logan, 

Mason, 

Monongalia, 

Monroe, 

Montgomery, 

Nicholas, 

Ohio, 

Pocahontas, 

Preston, 

Randolph, 

Russell, 

Scott, 

Tazewell, 

Tyler, 

Washington,     -  - 

Wood, 

Wythe, 


32 


4  Counties,  1  each,  > 
2  each, 5 


10  do. 


Alleghany, 

Bath, 

Berkeley, 

Hampshire, 

Hardy, 

Morgan, 

Pendleton, 

Rockbridge, 

Augusta, 

Botetourt, 

Jefferson, 

Rockingham, 

Frederick, 

Shenandoah, 


24 

1 
1 

2 
2 
2 
1 
1 
2 
2 
2 
2 
2 
2 
2 

24 


33 


670 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


20  Counties,  3  Towns,  1  each, 
5  Counties,  2  each, 

11  Counties,  and  1  Town,  dis- 
tricted for  5. 

4 
40 

Essex,                 -  -  1 

Fairfax,                -  -  1 

Gloucester,           -  -  1 

Greensville,          -  -  1 

Hanover,             -  -  1 

Henrico,              -  -  1 

Isle  of  Wight,      -  -  1 

King  &  Queen,    -  -  1 

King  William,      -  -  1 

Nansemond,          -  -  1 

New  Kent,           -  -  1 

Northampton,        -  -  1 

Northumberland,   -  -  1 

Princess  Anne,      -  -  1 

Prince  George,      -  -  1 

Prince  William,     -  -  1 

Spottsylvania,       -  -  2 

Southampton,       -  -  1 

Stafford,               -  -  1 

Surry,                  -  -  1 

Sussex,                -  -  1 

Richmond  City,    -  -  1 

Petersburg,           -  -  1 

Norfolk  Borough,  -  »  1 

Accomack,           -  -  2 

Caroline,              -  ■  -  2 

Chesterfield,         -  -  2 

Norfolk  County,    -  -  2 

Lancaster  and  Richmond,  -  1 

Westmoreland  and  King  George,  1 

Middlesex  and  Matthews,  -  1 
Elizabeth  City,  York,  Warwick 

and  Williamsburg,  -  1 

Charles  City  and  James  City,  1 

38 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  he  wished  to  bring  this  question  up,  not  for  adjustment :  no  :  all 
hope  of  that  was  at  an  end  :  after  the  temper  which  had  been  exhibited,  it  was  mani- 
fest that  both  sides  were  unwilling  to  agree  upon  any  compromise.  When  a  propo- 
sition in  that  character  was  offered  to  the  gentlemen  from  the  West,  they  rejected  it, 
he  was  about  to  say,  with  disdain.  He  did  not,  of  course,  speak  of  the  motives  of 
gentlemen,  but  only  of  their  course,  though  he  thought  this  very  unjust :  but  he 
should  not  enter  into  the  question  which  appeared  indeed  to  be  interminable,  and 
which  if  pressed  to  its  extremes  threatened  to  divide  the  State.  Mr.  L.  said,  that  if 
sinking  that  question  entirely,  if  it  were  possible  to  sink  it,  the  proposition  he  now 
offered  should  be  acceptable  to  the  West,  and  they  would  go  with  him  for  the  promo- 
tion of  perpetual  harmony  by  destroying  forever  the  principle  and  cause  of  discord 
between  them,  he  was  prepared  to  abide  by  it.  But  if  this  should  be  rejected  by 
them  with  unanimity,  and  they  persisted  in  standing  firm  on  what  they  called  their 
strict  rights,  all  motives  for  compromise  would  be  gone,  and  sorry,  heartily  sorry  was 
he  to  add.  that  every  hope  of  real  and  substantial  union  with  them  would  be  gone  too. 

Earnest,  zealous  and  sincere  as  they  were,  they  might  rest  assured  that  with  equal 
honesty,  sincerity  and  perseverance  he,  for  one,  should  adhere  to  what  he  regarded  as 
essential  to  the  existence  of  the  country :  For,  property  was  necessary  to  existence. 
To  live  as  a  freeman  was  indeed  a  great  good  :  but  in  order  to  live  in  freedom,  it  was 
necessary  to  live  ;  and  in  order  to  live,  it  was  necessary  to  have  property,  and  to  have 
it  at  a  man's  own  disposal.  He  cared  not  whether  they  were  few  or  many,  whether 
it  was  a  monarch  or  his  fellow-citizens,  he  was  equally  unwilling  that  any  should 
have  the  disposal  of  his  property.  He  was  anxious,  most  anxious,  if  possible,  to  sink 
the  question  forever.    He  offered  what  in  his  own  judgment,  (he  was  going  to  say 


13  Counties,  1  each, ) 
16      do.      2  each,  5 


Ameha,  -  -  1 

Amherst,  -  -  1 

Charlotte,  -  -  2 

Cumberland,  -  -  1 

Dinwiddle,  -  -  2 

Fluvanna,  -  -  1 

Franklin,  -  -  2 

Goochland,  -  -  1 

Henry,  -  -  1 

Louisa,  -  -  2 

Lunenburg,  -  -  1 

Madison,  -  -  1 

Nelson,  -  -  1 

Nottoway,  -  -  1 

Orange,  -  -  2 

Patrick,  -  -  1 

Powhatan,  -  -  1 

Prince  Edward,     -  -  1 

Albemarle,  -  -  2 

Bedford,  -  -  2 

Brunswick,  -      ^  -  2 

Buckingham,  -  -  2 

Campbell,  -  -  2 

Culpeper,  -  -  2 

Halifax,  -  -  2 

Mecklenburg,  -  -  2 

Pittsylvania,  -  -  2 

Fauquier,  -  -  2 

Loudoun,  =  .=  2 


45 
38 

83 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION* 


671 


his  impartial  judgment,  but  he  could  not  know  it  to  be  so)  would  more  contribute  to 
their  interest  in  all  respects,  than  any  that  had  yet  been  presented  to  them.  It  was 
because  he  thought  so,  that  he  was  induced  to  offer  it.  He  had  done  his  best  to 
shake  off  the  influence  of  prejudice  and  of  passion,  though  he  knew  it  to  be  impossi- 
ble to  do  this  entirely.  He  offered  this  as  a  compromise.  Its  merit  would  be  gone 
if  it  failed  of  that  end,  and  all  that  could  possibl}^  recommend  it  to  the  acceptance  of 
gentlemen  from  the  south-east  part  of  the  State,  would  be  gone  too. 

After  some  conversation  as  to  the  proper  course  to  be  pursued  ; 

Mr.  Upshur  moved  to  lay  his  amendment  for  the  present  upon  the  table.  He  said 
he  had  ofiered  it  as  a  compromise,  and  as  likely  in  its  practical  operation  to  be  bene- 
ficial to  the  Western  interest;  and  it  was  possible  it  might  yet  be  accepted  by  them. 
It  was  not  at  once  to  be  taken  for  granted,  that  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from 
Chesterfield  would  be  preferred  to  it.  As  an  Eastern  Delegate  he  should  prefer  hisy 
or  indeed  any  of  those  which  had  been  offered  to  his  own  :  but  he  was  afraid  the 
other  might  not  be  adopted,  and  none  other  be  substituted,  and  then  the  State  would 
be  left  without  any  scheme  of  future  apportionment  at  all ;  a  result  he  deprecated.  It 
was  not  probable  the  West  would  be  satisfied  with  any  Constitution,  which  deprived 
them  of  the  benefits  of  their  growth  and  improvement.  Should  the  question  on  his 
amendment  be  pressed  now,  he  should  himself  vote  against  it,  but  he  preferred  laying 
it  on  the  table  in  reserve. 

Mr.  Gordon  pressed  for  a  vote  on  the  amendment. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  that  so  far  as  it  depended  on  him,  and  in  this  he  spoke  the 
mind  of  all  the  Western  members,  he  never  could  consent  to  accept  of  that  scheme, 

Mr.  Cooke  said,  that  if  the  House  would  agree  to  end  here  the  discussion  which 
had  lately  engrossed  it,  he  should  ofter  as  a  substitute  for  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Up- 
shur, the  following: 

^\ Resolved^  That  it  shall  be  the  duty  of  the  Legislature  to  cause  an  assessment  to 
be  made  in  tlie  year  1839,  or  1840,  of  all  the  lands  within  the  Commonwealth  sub- 
ject to  taxation  ;  and,  as  soon  as  may  be  after  the  year  1840,  to  re-apportion,  through- 
out the  Commonwealth,  the  representation  of  the  people  in  both  of  the  Legislative 
bodies." 

Mr.  Cooke  said,  the  principle  of  this  measure  was  very  simple ;  and  if  tlie  House 
should  view  it  as  a  fair  and  honorable  compromise,  he  should  have  no  objection  to 
leave  the  future  re-apportionment  to  the  Legislature. 

Mr.  Upshur  said,  tliat  as  the  opinions  of  the  West  had,  he  presumed,  been  correctly 
stated  by  the  gentleman  from  Brooke,  he  Vv'ould  now  heartily  concur  in  voting  his 
amendment  out  of  the  House. 

The  question  was  then  taken  by  ayes  and  noes ;  when  it  appeared  that  Mr.  Madi- 
son alone  voted  in  tiie  affirmative. 

So  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Upshur  was  rejected. 

The  printing  of  Messrs.  Leigh's  and  Cooke's  propositions  having  been  ordered,  the 
House  adjourned. 


SATURDAY,  December  19,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr, 
Hoerner  of  the  Roman  Catholic  Cliurch. 

The  question  which  came  up  in  order  from  yesterday,  was  on  the  adoption  of  Mr. 
Upshur's  resolution  as  amended  by  Mr.  Gordon — (in  substance,  the  plan  of  Mr.  Gor- 
don, nothing  of  Mr.  Upshur's  being  retained  but  the  word  "Resolved;")  but  the 
House  not  being  yet  full,  it  was  suspended  for  the  present :  and  the  Convention  pro- 
ceeded to  the  consideration  of  the  sixth  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee, 
which  is  in  the  words  following,  viz  : 

"  Resolved,  That  no  person  ought  to  be  elected  a  member  of  the  Senate  of  this 
State,  who  is  not  at  least  thirty  years  of  age." 

Mr.  Gordon  moved  to  amend  the  resolution  by  striking  out  "  thirty,"  and  inserting 
"  twenty-five." 

On  this  motion,  Mr.  Chapman  demanded  the  ayes  and  noes.  They  were  ordered 
by  the  House,  and  being  taken,  stood  as  follows : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Giles,  Brod- 
nax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander",  Goode,  Marshall.  Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Anderson, 
Harrison,  Miller,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Rnndolph,  Leigh  of 
Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Griggs.  JNIuson  of  Frederick,  Naylor, 
Donaldson,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Chapman, 
Oglesby,  Morjran,  Tazewell,  Lo}' all,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Saun- 
ders, Cabell,  Stuart,  Gordon  and  Bayly — 15. 


672 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


jVbc5— Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Coffman,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson, 
M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Baxter,  Trezvant,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Mer- 
cer, Fitzhugh,  Cooke,  Powell,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Byars,  Garnett, 
Cloyd,  Mathews,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Campbell  of  Brooke, 
Wilson,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Claytor,  Branch,  Townes,  Mar- 
tin, Pleasants,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Upshur  and 
Perrin — 51. 

So  the  amendment  was  rejected.    And  the  resolution  as  reported  was  agreed  to. 

The  House  next  took  up  the  seventh  resolution  which  is  in  the  following  words : 

"Resolved,  That  no  person  ought  to  be  elected  a  member  of  the  House  of  Delegates 
of  this  State,  who  is  not  at  least  twenty-five  years  of  age." 

The  question  being  put  without  debate,  the  resolution  was  agreed  to. — Ayes  55. 

The  House  being  now  full,  on  motion  of  Mr.  Fitzhugh,  the  Convention  returned 
to  the  "  all  absorbing  question"  of  the  basis  of  Representation :  and  the  question  being 
substantially  on  the  following  plan,  (moved  by  Mr.  Gordon  as  an  amendment  to  Mr. 
Upshur's  by  way  of  substitute),  viz: 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Representation  in  the  Senate  and  House  of  Delegates  of  Vir- 
ginia, shall  be  apportioned  as  follows  : 

"  There  shall  be  thirteen  Senators  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge  of  mountains,  and  nine- 
teen East  of  those  mountains. 

"  There  shall  be  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  one  hundred  and  twenty-seven  mem- 
bers, of  whom,  twenty-nine  shall  be  elected  from  the  district  West  of  the  Alleghany 
mountain ;  twenty-four  from  the  Valley  between  the  Alleghany  and  Blue  Ridge  ;  and 
forty  from  the  Blue  Ridge  to  the  head  of  tide-water,  and  thirty-four  thence  below." 

A  question  of  order  arose  as  to  the  proper  course  to  be  pursued,  in  order  to  get  at 
the  consideration  of  the  proposition  offered  yesterday  by  Mr.  Leigh.  It  could  not  be 
moved  as  an  amendment  to  the  proposition  of  Mr.  Gordon  by  way  of  substitute,  be- 
cause Mr.  Gordon's  amendment  had  yesterday  been  agreed  to  by  the  House  and 
"Could  not  be  stricken  out  without  a  vote  to  reconsider.  It  could  not  be  added  to  Mr. 
Gordon's  amendment,  because  it  was  inconsistent  with  it,  and  contained  a  different 
Ulan.  And  it  could  not  be  taken  up  and  considered  as  an  original  substantive  propo- 
sition, because  a  rule  of  order  adopted  by  the  Convention  required  all  such  proposi- 
tions to  go  first  to  a  Committee  and  be  reported  on. 

After  some  conversation  had  taken  place,  and  Mr.  Stanard  had  moved  to  lay  the 
proposition  of  Mr.  Gordon  on  the  table,  with  a  view  to  rescind  the  rule  above  refer- 
red to,  and  thus  to  arrive  at  the  discussion  of  Mr.  Leigh's  proposition : 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  he  was  at  a  loss  to  conceive  how  the  friends  of  Mr.  Gordon's 
g)lan  could  consent  to  lay  it  on  the  table  with  a  view  to  consider  that  of  Mr.  Leigh, 
which  was  obviously  more  hostile  to  their  views.  He  then  went  into  a  comparison 
of  the  operation  of  the  two  propositions  upon  Western  interests  and  came  to  this  con- 
clusion, that  while  the  plan  of  Mr.  Gordon  secured  to  Eastern  Virginia  a  majority  of 
twenty-one,  that  of  Mr.  Leigh  gave  them  a  majority  of  twenty -seven.  The  first  he 
considered  a  great  inroad  on  the  rights  of  the  Western  portion  of  the  State ;  but  the 
latter  was  a  still  greater. 

Mr.  Gordon  addressed  the  Committee  as  follows: 

Mr.  President, — I  greatly  regret  the  excitement,  either  of  expression  or  manner, 
apparent  in  this  debate.  1  shall  endeavour  to  avoid  either,  in  what  I  may  say.  The 
:proposition  I  submitted  for  the  consideration  of  the  Convention,  was  made  in  the 
hope  of  sinking  the  discussion  on  the  basis  of  future  apportionment  of  Representa- 
tion. My  own  opinion  was,  and  is,  that  the  white  population,  gave  a  fair  criterion 
for  a  just  arrangement  of  power  among  the  several  parts  of  the  Commonwealth.  We 
have,  however,  found  the  Convention  equally  divided  in  opinion;  each  positive  and 
pertinacious,  in  opposing  any  plan  of  Representation  founded  in  the  views  of  the 
other.  This  discussion  had  greatly  agitated  our  councils,  distracted  our  deliberations, 
and  disturbed  the  quiet  of  the  country.  We  had  nothing  to  hope  from  prolonging  it: 
nor  can  there  now  be  any  other  purpose  in  continuing  it,  unless  to  rupture  the  Con- 
vention and  send  us  home  to  a  distracted  and  dissatisfied  community,  divided  by  a 
geographical  line,  into  two  great  hostile  parties.  Sir,  it  was  in  the  hope  of  healing 
these  divisions,  that  I  ventured  to  propose  to  this  Convention  a  plan  for  the  present 
division  of  Representative  power  in  the  State. 


condition  of  the  Commonwealth,  drawn  from  statistics  within  my  reach.  Sir,  the 
proposition  which  I  have  submitted,  was  not  guess  toork  ;  much  less  was  it  a  scheme 
to  give  to  one  part  of  the  Commonwealth  a  disproportionate  and  unjust  power  over  the 
rights  and  interests  of  any  other.  It  was  proposed  in  a  spirit  of  conciliation  and  com- 
promise, violating  no  principle  deemed  correct  by  myself,  and  those  with  whom  1  had 
thought  and  acted  ;  and,  above  all,  in  strict  regard  to  what  I  considered  just  to  every 
part  of  the  State. 


I  made  various  calculations  on  the 


DEBATES   OF   THE   CONVENTION.         '  6  73 

1  found  by  calculations  on  the  Census  of  1820,  the  only  authentic  document  of 
population  within  our  power,,  that  the  present  apportionment  of  Representation  in  the 
House  of  Delegates  was  greatly  unequal  throughout  the  State,  and  among  its  seve -al 
parts:  That  in  a  House  of  Delegates  of  two  hundred  and  fourteen  members,  tie 
twenty-six  counties  West  of  the  Alleghany  mountains,  composing  the  first  Weste  n 
district,  had  fifty-two  delegates,  when,  by 'the  white  numbers  of  1S20,  they  were  en- 
titled to  only  forty-seven  :  That  the  section  of  the  State,  below  tide- water,  with  thirty= 
six  counties  and  Your  towns,  had  seventy-six  delegates,  whilst  they  were  entitled  to 
but  fifty-nine  :  That  the  Valley  or  second  Vv  estern  district,  with  fourteen  counties  and 
twenty-eight  delegates,  was  entitled  to  forty-two,  and  that  the  middle  country  from 
which  I  come,  with  twenty-nine  counties,  had  fifty-eight  delegates,  and  was  entitled  to 
sixty-six :  That  the  two  last  mentioned  sub-divisions  of  the  State,  the  Valley  and 
middle  sections,  had  a  majority  of  seven  thousand,  seven  hundred  and  forty-two 
white  population,  of  twenty-two  thousand,  five  hundred  and  sixty-two  slaves,  and 
paid  of  the  taxes  of  1828.  S  17,926  more  than  the  other  two,  or  the  extreme  West  and 
Eastern  divisions  :  That  these  two  central  contiguous  districts  of  country ,  containing 
a  majority-  of  whites,  a  majority  of  slaves,  and  paying  greatly  more  than  half  the  re= 
venue  of  the  State,  had  a  vote  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  as  eighty-six  is  to  two  hun- 
dred and  fourteen.  Sir,  the  glaring  inequality  of  Representation,  has  not,  and  can- 
not be  met  by  any  argument,  and  challenges  universal  assent  to  its  injustice.  Do 
gentlemen  suppose  that  I,  as  one  of  the  Representatives  from  one  of  the  largest  and 
most  populous  districts  in  Virtrinia,  both  as  to  white  and  Federal  numbers,  was  insen- 
sible of  its  true  interests,  or  was  disposed  to  abandon  them.'  I  assure  gentlemen  the 
proposition  I  have  submitted  for  their  consideration,  was  not  a  leap  in  the  dark.  My 
first  proposal  was  to  reduce  the  House  of  Delegates  to  one  hundred  and  twenty.  (I 
added  seven  members  to  satisfy  the  wishes  of  some  of  the  Convention.)  I  made  va- 
rious estimates  on  the  different  propositions  for  apportionment,  suggested  to  the  Con- 
vention by  others,  or  that  presented  themselves  to  my  own  mind.  I  found  that  if 
taxation  alone  was  the  basis  of  Representation  in  a  House  of  one  hundred  and  twenty 
members,  the  twenty-nine  counties  composing  the  first  Western  district,  would  have 
eleven  and  a  half.  The  second  Western  or  Valley  district,  seventeen  and  a  half.  The 
first  Eastern  or  Middle  district,  forty-si.x  and  a  half.  The  second  Eastern  or  Lower 
district,  forty-four  and  a  half  If  the  Federal  number,  the  first  district,  twenty;  the 
second,  nineteen  ;  the  third,  forty-three  and  a  half;  and  the  fourth,  thirty-seven  and 
a  half.  If  the  combined  ratio  of  numbers  and  taxation,  the  first  district,  nineteen; 
the  second,  twenty  and  three-quarters;  the  third,  forty-two  ;  the  fourth,  thirty-eight 
and  a  quarter  members.  On  the  Federal  numbers  of  the  Auditor's  estimate  of  the 
present  population,  the  first  district  would  have  twenty-four  ;  the  second,  twenty-one; 
the  third,  forty-four ;  and  the  fourth,  thirty-eight  members.  Sir,  I  made  other  esti- 
mates from  the  Auditor's  statement  of  the  taxes  of  1628.  Dividing  the  whole  amount 
of  taxes  or  revenue,  by  the  whole  number  of  delegates  in  our  present  House  of  Dele- 
gates, I  found  that  if  all  parts  of  the  State  paid  equally,  the  average  for  each  member, 
should  be  $1,872.  I  then  made  a  comparative  estimate  of  the  taxation  and  Repre- 
sentation of  each  section  of  the  State — I  found  that  the  first  Western  section  paid 
$  751  per  member;  the  second  Western  or  Valley  District,  paid  S  2.233  per  member; 
the  third  or  middle  district.  82,830,  and  the  fourth  or  second  Eastern  district,  paid 
$1,684  per  member.  Sir,  I  give  these  estimates  in  no  spirit  of  reproach  to  that 
Western  district,  for  the  small  contributions  to  the  Treasury,  in  proportion  to  their 
actual  Representative  power  in  the  Government,  but  to  admonish  gentlemen  who 
complain  that  my  proposition  does  injustice  to  their  country,  that  they  should  not  for- 
get, that  in  Committee  of  the  Whole,  forty  members  of  this  Convention  rose  in  favour 
of  a  proposition  to  base  Representation  on  taxation  alone.  Sir,  when  it  is  conceded 
on  all  hands,  that  without  a  spirit  of  temperance  and  moderation,  no  good  can  result 
from  our  deliberations,  I  ask  what  injustice  my  proposition  can  do  to  the  West.'  On 
the  contrary,  is  it  not  fair  and  liberal  .^^  It  gives  to  the  whole  country  West  of  the 
Blue  Ridge,  within  a  very  few  members  of  what  it  would  be  entitled  to  upon  the  pre- 
sent uncertain  estimate  of  the  Auditor  of  the  white  population  of  the  State  ;  and  it 
gives  to  the  Valley  all,  all  it  claims  for  the  present  on  any  scheme  of  Representation, 
and  to  the  Trans-AUeghany  country,  three  more  than  it  would  be  entitled  to  by  the 
Census  of  1820,  on  white  population  alone.  Sir,  is  not  this  a  fair  and  liberal  estimate 
for  the  West.'  Does  it  not  give  all  that  it  may  fairly  claim  for  the  present.?  What 
do  gentlemen  ask  :  that  we  should  give  a  rule  of  future  apportionments  :  without  fix- 
ing the  Representation  for  the  present?  Can  our  brethren  of  the  West  think  it  would 
be  right  or  reasonable  in  us  of  the  East,  who  represent  a  country  containing  nearly 
half  a  milhon  of  bondsmen,  whilst  they  have,  comparatively  but  few,  to  return  to  our 
constituents  the  masters  of  these  slaves,  without  being  able  to  tell  them  what  will  be 
tlie  actual  state  of  their  Representation  in  the  Legislature  ?  What  will  be  the  actual 
and  relative  power  of  each  section  of  the  State  in  regard  to  this  great  and  delicate  in= 
terest.'    Sir,  the  people  of  Virginia  would  ratify  no  Constitution,  looking  to  a  pro= 

85 


674 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


spec  five  Census,  which  did  not  fix  the  present  Representation  of  its  respective  dis- 
tricts. The  very  anxious  suspense  and  uncertainty  on  that  subject,  after  the  agita- 
tions whicli  have  been  excited  here  and  elsewhere,  would  make  them  reject  any  Consti- 
tution you  can  propose,  and  content  them  to  live  under  the  present  Constitution,  une- 
qual as  the  distribution  of  power  under  it,  undoubtedly  is.  Sir,  when  I  first  presen- 
ted my  plan  of  Representation,  I  thought  it  would  be  acceptable  to  the  "West,  be- 
cause, I  was  sure,  it  did  them  ample  justice,  and  was  not  subject  to  be  criticised,  from 
containing-  in  its  principles  any  element  peculiarly  objectionable  to  them.  In  pre- 
senting it  I  looked  to  the  rights  and  interests  of  the  whole  State — acknowledging  as 
I  always  do,  my  peculiar  obligations  and  duties  to  my  immediate  constituents.  1  feel 
and  have  felt  that  their  interests  will  on  this  occasion  be  best  subserved  by  looking 
with  an  enlarged  view  to  tiie  rights  and  interests  of  the  whole,  rather  than  to  a  per- 
petuation of  sectional  strife,  in  which  they,  nor  any  who  love  their  country,  can  take 
delight.  "With  tiiese  views,  the  proposition  was  submitted  and  has  been  sustained. 
The  first  proposition  was  the  result  of  an  estimate  of  the  white  population  of  1820 — 
Tnodified  from  one  hundred  and  twenty  members  to  one  hundred  and  twenty-seven, 
to  accommodate  the  views  and  to  endeavour  to  sink  the  debate  on  that  vexed  question. 
iSiY,  one  great  objection  I  alwaj^s  had  to  bringing  this  Federal  number  or  mixed  basis 
under  discussion,  was  an  anticipation  of  tlie  heat  and  unhappiness  it  would  engender  ; 
and  a  strong  objection  to  fixing  it  in  the  Constitution,  was,  that  it  would  be  an  ele- 
ment of  faction;  a  seed  of  discord;  fatal  to  the  permanence  of  the  Constitution.  If 
you  do  put  it  in  the  Constitution,  cannot  the  non-slave-holding  part  of  the  State,  ex- 
cite you  on  this  subject  whenever  they  may  have  a  purpose  to  answer  by  it — and 
you  may  iiave  a  Missouri  question,  of  perpetual  recurrence  in  the  heart  of  your  insti- 
tutions. Sir,  no  Constitution  you  can  form,  situated  as  Virginia  is,  can  endure  with 
such  a  provision  in  it. 

The  non-freeholders  and  non-slave-owners,  who  are  excluded  from  the  Right  of 
Suflrage,  w'ill  be  the  lever  to  wrench  your  institutions  from  such  foundations — they 
will  not  be  insensible  to  the  appeal,  that  this  fair  domain  of  Virginia,  was  conquered 
by  their  fathers  in  manj^  a  battle  bravely  won — that  they  established  a  republican  form 
of  Government,  leaving  its  adnfmistration  in  the  hands  of  the  freeholders — that  after 
fifty-fonr  years  of  possession  of  this  exclusive  power,  they  delegated  their  men  of  age 
and  wisdom,  who  met  in  council  to  liberalize  their  institutions  and  fix  the  foundations 
of  future  Government,  but  that  such  had  been  the  influence  of  long  submission  to  un- 
equal power,  that  they  not  only  refused  to  extend  the  Right  of  Suflrrage  to  the  free- 
men of  the  country,  but  they  infused  a  new  element  of  power — they  made  their  slaves 
the  basis,  in  part,  of  representation,  whilst  those  who  guard  them  in  their  subjugation, 
are  denied  a  voice  in  their  councils  and  in  elections.  Sir,  I  will  not  pursue  this  subject, 
but  ask  gentlemen  to  reflect.  Can  a  Government  so  based,  be  permanent?  "Will  it  not 
contain  within  itself  the  fatal  germ  of  its  own  destruction,  after  years  of  strife  and  con- 
futnon Sir,  is  it  wise  in  a  slave-holding  community  to  keep  up  this  discussion.'*  If 
we  do  not  put  this  ingredient  in  our  cup,  ma}'  we  not  fairly  appeal  to  the  just  sympa- 
thies of  our  Western  brethren  Not  from  any  apprehension  of  danger  personal  to  our- 
selves. Those  who  have  commanded  slaves,  can  never  become  so  themselves ;  the 
spirit  of  command  endures  through  life.  But  when  they  reflect  tliat  we  are  hereditary 
masters  of  men  born  in  slavery  ;  that  our  condition  is  unalterable  at  present ;  that  theirs 
is  every  day  more  and  more  assimilated  to  ours ;  that  their  interests  and  ours  equally 
combine  to  allay  this  excitement  and  look  to  Virginia  as  one  great  united  Common- 
wealth, I  am  sure  the  appeal  will  not  be  in  vain.  Sir,  we  ought  to  meet  on  this  mid- 
dle ground  of  the  Census  of  1820,  notwithstanding  the  "West  sets  up  a  Ingher  claim. 
But,  Sir,  whatever  may  be  the  result,  I  shall  have  the  consolation  to  reflect,  that  I 
have  discovered  no  narrow  selfishness  in  the  plan  I  have  submitted,  as  my  own  gives 
to  that  portion  of  the  Commonwealth  from  which  I  come,  a  just,  but  smaller  portion 
of  power  than  has  been  offered  by  others,  and  that  true  to  my  principles  and  my  coun- 
try, 1  have  made  an  honest  effort  to  advance  her  peace  and  honor.  I  hope  the  Con- 
vention will  give  to  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  a  candid  con- 
sideration. 1  am  not  vain  enough  to  believe  I  have  proposed  a  perfect  plan,  but  think 
it  better  calculated  to  combine  a  majority  of  the  Convention  than  any  other. 

Mr.  Massie  made  an  explanation  as  to  his  course  in  voting  for  Mr.  Gordon's  amend- 
ment yesterday,  which  he  understood  to  be  referred  to  in  some  of  the  remarks  of  Mr. 
Doddridge.  He  had  voted  against  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick, 
(Mr.  Powell.)  because  it  directlj'  presented  the  first  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Com- 
mittee, which  had  been  previously  laid  \ipon  the  table  b}'-  a  vote  of  the  Convention, 
in  which  he  concurred,  for  the  purpose  of  taking  up  the  subject  of  compromise.  It 
was  now  certain  that  no  basis  of  Representation  could  be  ^igreed  on  by  any  majority 
respectable  in  point  of  number,  and  the  proposition  in  question  was  not  so  great  a  de- 
parture from  the  principle  contended  for  here,  as  the  scheme  proposed  of  a  white  basis 
in  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  a  Federal  basis  in  the  Senate.  His  constituents  had 
a  deep  interest  in  the  compromise  of  this  agitating  controversy,  lying  as  they  did,  be- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


67S 


tween  the  conflicting  parties ;  and  he  had  voted  iu  the  spirit  of  compromise  and  in 
none  other. 

Mr.  Johnson  was  in  favour  of  laying  the  present  proposition  upon  the  table,  in  or- 
der that  that  of  Mr.  Leigh  might  be  fairly  considered.  As  to  the  rule  which  stood  in 
the  way,  it  had  been  adopted  at  liis  motion,  had  now  done  all  he  intended  it  to  do,  and 
might  be  dispensed  with. 

The  proposition  of  Mr.  Gordon  was  then  laid  upon  the  tible  for  the  present. 

The  rule  requiring  every  orioinal  proposition  offered  in  Convention  to  be  referred 
to  a  Committee  and  reported  upon,  was  then,  after  some  opposition  from  Mr.  Mercer, 
rescinded. 

Mr.  Leigh's  proposition  was  then  read  from  the  Chair,  as  follows  : 
"  That  tne  House  of  Delegates  shall  consist  of  one  hundred  and  thirty-nine  mem- 
bers, and  the  representation  therein  shall  be  apportioned  as  follows  : 

"  The  twenty-six  counties  lying  West  of  the  Alleghan}- ,  shall  have  thirty-two  De- 
legates. 

The  fourteen  counties  lying  between  the  Alleghany  and  Blue  Ridge,  shall  have 
twenty-four  Delegates. 

"  Tlie  twenty-nine  counties  l3dng  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge  and  above  Tide-water, 
shall  have  forty-five  Delegates. 

"  And  the  thirty-six  counties  and  four  towns  lying  on  tide-water,  shall  have  thirty- 
eight  Delegates. 

"  No  more  new  counties  shall  ever  be  formed  of  the  country  lying  East  of  the  Blue 
Ridge ;  but  the  Legislature  may  in  its  discretion,  from  time  to  time,  a  majority  of  the 
whole  number  of  both  Houses  concurring,  whensoever  the  increase  of  the  population 
of  the  country  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  and  the  more  convenient  administration  of 
justice  and  police  shall  require,  form  new  counties  not  exceeding  ten,  out  of  the  ter- 
ritory lying  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge ;  and  whenever  such  new  county  shall  be  formed, 
an  additional  Delegate  shall  be  allowed  to  the  country'-  West  of  the  Blue  R.idge. 

And  the  Legislature  having  respect  to  the  relative  state  of  population  of  the  re- 
spective counties,  cities,  towns,  and  election  districts,  and  a  majority  of  the  whole - 
number  of  both  Houses  concurring,  may,  at  any  time,  allow  one  additional  Delegate 
to  any  county,  city,  town,  or  election  district,  now  existing,  or  to  be  formed,  and  to 
which  only  one  Delegate  shall  in  the  first  instance  be  allowed;  so  that  not  more  than 
two  Delegates  shall  ever  be  allowed  to  any  county,  city,  or  election  district:  and  so 
that  the  number  of  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  never  exceed  one  hundred  and  sixty 
members." 

Mr.  Leigh  then  rose  in  explanation  and  defence  of  his  proposition.  He  premised, 
in  the  outset,  that  all  he  was  now  solicitous  about,  was  the  principle  of  the  plan,  with- 
out insisting  on  its  details,  or  attempting  to  present,  with  exact  precision,  all  the  re- 
sults to  which  it  would  lead  :  he  only  meant  to  shew  its  modus  operandi — how  it  would 
work  generally.  He  repeated,  (what  he  had  declared  when  he  first  offered  it,)  his 
entire  and  perfect  indifference  as  to  the  details,  so  far  as  they  might  affect  his  own  dis- 
trict. 

He  assured  the  Convention,  that  he  never  went  to  any  work,  with  more  reluctance 
in  his  life,  than  to  that  of  tendering  this  plan  of  compromise,  in  his  own  person.  No 
consideration,  short  of  the  absolute  necessity  of  the  case,  should  have  induced  him  to 
do  it.  If  any  other  gentleman,  holding  his  opinions,  would  have  undertaken  to  pre- 
pare and  present  this,  or  any  similar  plan,  the  House  should  not  have  heard  one  word 
from  him  :  he  would  have  been  well  content  to  give  it  only  his  silent  support.  He 
knew,  perfectly  well,  that  there  was  a  portion  of"  the  members  of  the  Convention, 
who,  without  indul0:ing  any  personal  hostility  or  ill  will  towards  him,  felt,  neverthe- 
less, an  extreme  jealousy  of  any  propositions  he  might  offer,  merely  for  being  presented 
by  him.  Some,  because  they  asserted  an  exclusive  claim  to  republicanism,  and  thought 
it  necessary  to  suppose,  that  his  mind  was  possessed  with  anti-republican  principles; 
others,  from  a  belief  that  he  was  actuated  by  a  strong  jealousy  of  Western  interests — 
but,  from  whatever  cause,  he  knew  that  such  a  prejudice  did  exist,  just  as  well  as  if 
gentlemen  had  avowed  it  to  him  :  he  only  desired  to  look  into  a  man's  face,  to  know 
how  he  felt  afiected  towards  him,  and  measures  coming  from  him.  He  would  have 
avoided  incurring  this  obstacle  to  the  success  of  his  present  proposal,  if  it  had  been 
in  his  puwer,  to  tlie  end  that  it  might  get  fair  play,  and  stand  or  fall  by  its  own  merits 
alone;  but  that  being  impracticable,  he  had  ofiered  it,  to  take  its  fate.  He  should 
now,  as  briefly  as  he  could,  explain  it  to  the  House. 

Nothing  had  filled  him  with  more  surprise,  than  to  find,  that  gentlemen  of  the  Val- 
ley should  prefer  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  (Mr.  Gordon,)  to  that  he 
now  offered.  He  said,  gentlemen  of  the  Valley:  because,  after  the  speech  which  the 
House  had  heard  yesterday,  (Mr.  Summers's,)\nd  this  morning,  (Mr.  Doddridge's.) 
he  saw  that  there  was  a  feeling  in  the  Trans-Alleghany  country,  which,  he  should 
think,  gentlemen  from  the  Valley  would  be  quite  as^much  alarmed  at,  as  gentlemen 
from  Eastern  Virginia :  but  that  was  a  question  for  them,  and  not  for  him  to  judge  of. 


676 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


The  substantial  difference  between  his  plan,  and  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Albe- 
marle, lay  in  two  points  only  :  first,  there  was  a  shght  difference  in  the  proportions  of 
representation  assigned  to  the  four  great  divisions  of  the  State  respectively — (he  should 
not  speak  of  the  shght  difference  as  to  the  whole  number  of  the  House  of  Delegates ;) 
and  secondly,  that  the  gentleman's  proposition  contained  within  it,  no  provision  for 
settling  this  vexed  controversy  hereafter;  though  it  did,  (what  alone  it  professed  to 
do.)  provide  for  settling  that  controversy  for  the  present.  The  gentleman,  out  of  a 
House  of  Delegates  consisting  of  one  hundred  and  twenty-seven  members,  assigned 
to  the  West  very  nearly  the  exact  proportion  to  which  it  v/ould  be  entitled  on  the 
principle  of  the  lohite  basis,  (so  called,)  according  to  the  Census  of  1820  :  probably  not 
varying  as  to  the  number  of  representatives,  more  than  a  unit,  in  either  of  the  four  divi- 
sions of  the  Commonwealth.  Now,  this  near  approach  to  "  the  principles  of  justice," 
(as  the  gentleman  from  Brooke,  (Mr,  Doddridge,)  always  called  them — assuming  that 
all  other  principles  but  his  own,  are  unjust  and  oppressive,)  was  his  principal  objection 
to  that  arrangement.  The  gentleman  from  Albemarle  was,  he  knew,  of  the  same 
opinion  with  the  gentleman  from  Brooke,  as  to  the  justice  of  the  principles  of  the 
white  basis  :  he  had  avowed  that  opinion.  Mr.  L.  was  not  now  going  into  that  ques- 
tion :  but  he  was  going  to  discuss  this  question,  viz  :  what  is  the  best  practicable  mode, 
(if  any  mode  be  practicable,)  to  sink  that  controversy  forever.'  If  he  could  shew  the 
gentleman  from  Albemarle,  that  his  (Mr.  L's)  plan  was  more  likely  to  accomplish  this 
object  than  his  own,  he  hoped,  from  that  gentleman's  candour,  that  he  should  have 
his  support. 

He  concurred  entirely  with  that  gentleman  in  the  opinion,  and  in  the  feeling  he 
had  expressed  on  that  subject:  sound  policy  required  of  every  statesman  to  sink  that 
distracting  controversy  then  and  forever.  And  he  was  greatly  mistaken  if  there  was 
a  gentleman  in  the  House,  who  would  not  acknowledge  that  the  very  agitation  of  it 
had  not,  already,  of  itself,  produced  a  greater  amount  of  evil,  than  could  be  compen- 
sated by  any  possible  good,  which  any  conceivable  amendment  of  the  Constitution 
wh  ch  this  Convention  could  make  would  ever  produce. 

Supposing  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  to  be  adopted,  its  dis- 
tribution of  representation,  as  between  the  four  great  divisions  of  the  State,  was  to  be 
unchangeable,  fixed,  permanent.  Could  that  gentleman  suppose,  that  he  sank  the 
controversy  in  question  by  that  provision Could  he  expect  that  those  who  were  so 
extremely  anxious  for  the  establishment  of  what  they  considered  as  the  only  true  re- 
publican basis  of  Government,  would  make  no  effort  to  get  a  new  Conventi(m  for  the 
purpose  of  establishing  such  a  basis  ?  If  the  gentleman  hoped  this,  he  must  be  far  more 
sanguine  than  he  was.  Or  did  he  hope,  that  any  Constitution,  in  any  conceivable 
shape,  would  not,  in  its  actual  operation,  engender  discontents,  which  those  gentle- 
men could  use  as  an  instrument  to  effect  a  new  Convention  ?  Could  he  imagine,  that 
any  Constitution  could  be  devised  by  this  Convention,  or  by  the  wit  of  man,  that 
would  exenjpt  this  connnunity  from  evils,  and  sore  evils  too If  the  gentleman  knew, 
as  he  must  know,  that  every  v/ork  of  man  was  necessarily  imperfect,  he  could  not  but 
own  that  many  and  great  evils  must  exist  under  any  possible  form  of  Government, 
and  that  the  question  concerning  the  merit  of  every  Government  under  the  sun,  was 
only  this — whether  the  sum  of  good  it  produced  was  the  greatest  practicable,  instead 
of  the  greatest  desirable.?  Any  Constitution  that  could  be  devised  would  cause  some 
discontents,  reasonable  or  unreasonable  discontents,  which  might  be  inflamed  at  any 
time,  when  any  great  question  of  geographical  and  political  interests  was  to  be  de- 
cided. 

Mr.  L.  said  he  would  be  content  to  take  the  apportionment  of  the  gentleman  from 
Albemarle,  if  that  gentleman  could  shew  him  that  it  could  be  fixed  as  a  permanent 
rule  of  apportionment.  His  great  objection  to  it  was,  that  it  could  not  be  made  so.  All 
that  it  did,  or  could  do,  was  to  settle  it  for  the  present — for  the  present  in  that  sense 
of  the  word,  in  which,  while  we  are  yet  speaking,  present  has  passed  away.  The  rule 
would  be  overturned,  the  very  moment  the  question  could  be  submitted  to  the  people, 
whether  it  should  continue  ;  instantly.  Both  sides  would  unite  against  it.  It  settled 
nothing  :  it  left  us  just  where  we  were.  It  left  the  great  basis  question  to  agitate  the 
community,  till  all  the  community  shall  be  dissolved  between  the  disputants. 

Mr.  L.  said  he  now  prophecied,  that  that  struggle,  if  persisted  in,  would  end  in  the 
dissolution  of  the  Commonwealth.  He  went  on  this  principle,  established  by  long 
experience,  that  whenever  men  have  a  controversy  on  matters  of  interest,  that  con- 
tinues for  a  long  time,  it  is  sure  to  end  in  a  separation.  He  was  for  avoiding  this,  if 
it  were  possible  to  avoid  it  by  fair  and  just  means. 

The  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Cooke,)  had  presented  a  different  proposition. 
He  was  for  taking  the  proportions  of  representation,  assigned  by  the  plan  of  the 
gentleman  from  Albemarle,  as  a  present  arrangement,  and  providing  for  a  new  ap- 
portio  nment  after  the  year  1840,  to  be  entrusted  entirely  to  Legislative  discretion. 
He,  M  r.  L.  had  given  this  plan  as  full  a  consideration  as  the  time  would  enable  him. 
At  the  first  view  of  it,  he  had  been  strongly  disposed  to  give  it  his  assent.  As  the 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


677 


proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  gave  to  the  cis-montane  country  a  ma- 
jority of  twenty-one  in  the  lower  House,  and  six  in  the  Senate,  he  had  supposed  that 
the  future  apportionment  might  be  left  with  safety  to  a  Legislature  thus  constituted. 
But.  on  farther  reflection,  he^found  that  there  was  one  reason  operating  so  strongly 
against  its  adoption,  he  was  compelled  to  reject  it :  that  reason  was,  that  it  defeated  the 

freat  end  he  had  in  view,  which  was  to  sink  the  controversy  between  East  and  West, 
'or,  supposing  representation  in  botli  Houses  to  be  distributed  according  to  the  pro- 
position of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  and  the  prospect  to  be  held  out  of  a  new 
apportionment  in  1S40,  and  no  principle  settled  as  a  rule  for  that  apportionment,  it 
was  only  makingf  provision  for  a  party  war  to  last  as  long  as  the  siege  of  Troy,  to  be 
prosecuted  for  ten  long  years,  with  the  utmost  zeal  and  ability  that  could  be  furnished 
bv  both  sides.  He  asked  gentlemen  if  they  did  not  feel  and  see  this  consequence.'' 
The  moment  such  a  plan  should  be  submitted  to  the  West,  they  would  be  told  "  yes, 
accept  this  for  the  present — for  in  ten  years  the  Legislature  will  have  '  came  to  a  sense 
of  justice.' — and  we  shall  then  have  representation  based  upon  the  white  population 
exclusively.''  The  leaders  of  that  party  would  keep  that  idea  constantly  before  the 
minds  of  the  people.  And  did  they  suppose,  that  the  other  party  would  remain  per- 
fectly silent.?  Did  any  one  persuade  himself,  that  if  pamphlets  and  newspaper  essays 
were  resorted  to  and  multiplied  in  the  West,  that  essays  and  pamphlets  would  not  be 
written  in  the  East,  with  at  least  as  much  fluency  and  zeal,  if  not  the  same  ability.? 
[Looking  toward  Mr.  Cooke.]  For  one,  he  promised  gentlemen,  that  if  God  should 
spare  his  life,  the  question  should  be  met  with  as  much  earnestness  and  diligence,  on 
this  side  the  mountains,  as  on  the  other — and  if  success  depended  on  zeal,  earnest- 
ness and  sincerity,  he  thought  he  should  stand  as  good  a  chance  for  success  as  any 
one — they  had  no  more  zealous  advocate  for  their  principles  than  he  was  for  his,  and 
should  be  (he  believed)  to  the  day  of  his  death.  Though  (said  he)  I  have  changed 
many  of  my  opinions  since  you.  Sir,  and  I  were  together  at  college,  I  do  not  expect 
after  arriving  at  my  time  of  life  to  change  them  again. 

Mr.  L.  again  insisted,  that  the  proposition  of  Mr.  Cooke,  was  the  proclamation  of  a 
Trojan  war  between  the  two  great  parties  of  the  State.  This  was  his  objection  to  it: 
That  war  he  wished  to  end  now,  and  avert  hereafter.  But  the  proposition  of  the  gen- 
tleman from  Albemarle,  renewed  it  at  once — immediately;  while  that  of  the  gentle- 
man from  Frederick,  would  keep  it  up,  without  decision,  till  1640.  What  new  feuds 
or  flames  might  arise  in  that  period  of  time,  it  was  not  for  the  wisdom  of  man  to  fore- 
know. The  war  had  endured  now  since  lc24:  and  who  could  be  ignorant,  that  in 
the  course  of  its  prosecution,  many  who  had  once  been  bound  by  the  strongest  at- 
tachment, had  become  entirely  alienated Some,  who  reposed  unbounded  political 
confidence  in  each  other,  had  found  all  bonds  dissolved,  and  hostility  planted,  where 
nothing  but  peace  and  harmony  once  reigned.  He  knew  this  to  be  the  fact ;  and  it 
was  impossible  that  others  could  be  blind  to -it.  His  own  temper  was  to  fight  as  hard 
as  he  could,  while  the  battle  raged,  and  to  forget  all,  as  soon  as  it  was  over.  Give 
him  a  short  war,  as  hard  as  they  pleased  :  only,  in  the  name  of  Heaven,  let  it  be 
short:  and  then,  when  peace  comes,  let  it  be  sincere  and  hearty  peace.  He  was  for 
no  ten  years  war.  He  preferred  that  the  controversy  should  be  decided  at  once,  at 
the  point  of  the  bayonet,  (the  bayonet  he  referred  to.  was  the  vote  of  the  people  :  votes 
were  the  only  bayonets  he  hoped  ever  to  see  employed  in  this  contest.)  let  it  rather 
be  decided  at  once,  upon  the  question  of  accepting  or  rejecting  the  proposition  of  the 
gentleman  from  Albemarle.  He  had  rather  have  that,  than  the  plan  of  the  gentle- 
man from  Frederick,  with  that  ten  years  war  to  follow  it.  That  of  the  gentleman 
from  Albemarle,  brought  them  first  to  the  charge ;  and  if  they  must  come  to  it,  the 
sooner  the  better,  always. 

As  to  the  plan  he  had  submitted,  he  said,  he  did  not  address  himself  to  any  who 
thought  that  the  best  way  to  reform  was  to  begin  by  demolition  ;  nor  to  any  who 
thought  there  was  a  best  in  Government  which  applied  to  all  mankind,  in  all  times, 
places,  and  circumstances  ;  nor  to  any  who  thought  that  they  were  bound  to  any  certain 
set  of  abstract  principles,  as  being  the  only  republican  principles  which  did  or  could 
exist,  or  who  were  of  opinion,  that  the  particular  circumstances  of  Virginia  ought  not 
to  be  regarded.  He  spoke  to  those  only  who  thought  that  they  ought  to  suit  our  in- 
stitutions to  our  condition.  All  those  who  thought  that  one  who  did  not  advocate 
the  white  basis"  could  not  be  a  republican,  of  course,  thought  him  an  aristocrat, 
and  were  ready  to  fix  the  name  mad- dog  upon  him  accordingly  ;  and  to  keep  clear 
of  all  communication  with  him,  for  fear  of  a  bite. 

But,  he  asked  the  consideration  of  his  proposition,  upon  its  own  merits  alone.  Let 
it  be  separated  from  its  author,  and  judged  by  itself. 

It  was  his  opinion  that  in  the  trans-Alleghany  country,  there  ought,  in  a  short  time, 
to  be  a  farther  division  of  counties,  for  the  more  convenient  administration  of  justice 
and  for  the  purposes  of  internal  pohce.  He  was  willing  to  give  them  a  Republican 
Government  in  reality  ;  so  that  the  representative  should  be  personally  known  by  his 
constituents,  and  they  by  him,  and  that  he  might  truly  represent  their  views  and 


678 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


wants  in  the  Legislature,  He  therefore  provided  for  tlie  erection  of  ten  new  coun- 
ties to  the  west  of  the  Ridge,  which  would  reduce  the  majority  on  this  side  the  moun- 
tains to  seventeen.  Did  he  do  nothing  else?  Should  tlie  counties  in  the  Valley  in- 
crease in  population  and  improvement,  and  the  trans-Alleghany  country  also,  to  the 
extent  of  their  own  most  sanguine  hopes  and  calculations,  or  should  they  even  attain 
to  one-half  of  who.t  was  so  confidently  predicted,  he  had  provided  that  the  Legisla- 
ture should  have  power  to  assign  to  any  of  them  one  additional  representative,  so  that 
it  should  thenceforth  have  two.  Or  he  had  no  objection  to  extend  this  to  three,  should 
the  proportional  increase  of  population  require  it,  and  their  representation  might  be 
equalized  as  far  as  practicable;  and  in  this  case,  he  would  allow  one  hundred  and 
eighty,  as  the  maximum  number  of  the  House  of  Delegates.  The  Legislature,  having 
respect  to  popn'  'ion  and  increase,  might  increase  the  representation  in  all  parts  of 
the  State.    He  u- not  confined  this  provision  to  the  West  only. 

Let  gentlemen  trom  that  portion  of  the  State  say  what  they  pleased,  so  long  as  he 
looked  at  the  face  of  the  country,  such  as  the  hand  of  God  had  made  it,  he  must  ever 
be  of  opinion,  that  the  greatest  increase  of  Virginian  population  must  take  place  in 
the  middle  country  until  it  should  become  very  dense;  and  then  it  would  naturally 
seek  the  Tide-water  country,  where  the  waters  teemed  with  subsistence  for  man.  This, 
however,  was  looking  forward  to  a  remoce  period  indeed.  But  the  chief  increase 
would,  at  all  times,  happen  in  the  Valley  and  in  the  midland  district.  Mr.  L.  said,  he 
had  no  objection,  that  that  portion  of  the  State  should  hold  the  balance  of  power.  He 
told  gentlemen  from  the  West,  that  he  hoped  they  might  increase  in  population  to 
the  utmost  extent  of  their  desires;  and  he  had  accordingly  provided  to  meet  that 
growth  by  a  proportionate  increase  of  power  He  was  perfectly  content  with  this. 
He  had  no  objections  in  the  world  to  their  obtaining  power  in  this  way  ;  because  they 
would  then  be  compelled  to  pay  their  share  of  the  taxes  of  the  Commonwealth :  as 
soon  as  they  were  compelled  to  tax  themselves  as  well  as  us,  they  might  tax  him  and 
welcome.  That  was  all  he  asked.  That  was  all  the  safegum-d  he  should  ever  require. 

Mr.  L.  observed,  in  conclusion,  that  these  views  were  perttictly  plain  and  simple. 
Had  such  propositions  come  from  Western  members,  he  should  have  hailed  them 
with  the  sincerest  joy.  Ana  lie  was  persuaded  that  nothing  but  the  interminable 
contest  about  the  "  Vv'hite  basis"  had  prevented  such  an  event.  Yet  he  made  no  com- 
plaint on  that  subject:  he  uttered  no  censure  on  the  course  gentlemen  had  thought 
it  right  to  pursue  :  they  were  certainly  the  best  judges  of  their  ow^i  course.  He 
lioped  he  should  not  be  left  alone  in  the  support  of  the  scheme  he  had  proposed;  but 
that  it  would  receive  the  co\intenance  of  those  who  possessed,  in  so  large  a  degree, 
wliat  he  did  not — he  meant,  weight  of  character. 

Mr.  Cooke  said,  that  the  question  under  consideration  was  a  question  concerning 
the  retative  merits  of  the  schemes  for  apportioning  representation  offered  by  the  gen- 
tleman from  Chesterfield,  (Mr.  Leigh),  and  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  (Gen.  Gor- 
don ;)  and  the  positive  merits  of  the  former.  With  the  positive  merits  of  the  latter 
scheme,  (said  Mr.  C.)  we  have  at  present  nothing  to  do.  I  learn  from  the  gentleman 
from  Chesterfield,  that  his  scheme  is  offered  in  the  spirit  of  conciliation  and  compro- 
mise, and  in  that  spirit  I  will  frankly  consider  it. 

And  I  beg  that  gentleman  to  be  assured,  that  his  schemes  are  not  received  by  7ne, 
at  least,  with  jealousy  and  distrust.  For,  however  formidable  his  hostility  to  Westei-n 
interests,  it  has  certainly  the  merit  of  being  open  and  manly.  So  far  from  considering 
his  various  propositions  as  having  any  thing  covert  or  insidious  in  them,  I  am  ratlier 
inclined  to  admire  the  naivete  and  frankness  with  which  he  uniformlj'^  proposes  to  the 
people  of  the  West  to  surrender  themselves,  bound  liand  and  foot,  to  those  of  the 
East.  Such  is,  invariably,  tlie  dist:!ictive  and  peculiar  feature  of  his  plans.  No,  Sir, 
I  do  assure  him  that  I  expect  nothing  insidious  from  Jiiin. 

Let  us  briefly  examine  his  new  plan  for  organizing  the  Legislative  bodies,  and  ap- 
portioning representation  among  the  people  of  Virginia,  in  comparison  with  that  of 
the  gentleman  from  Albemarle.  I  heard  him,  I  confess,  with  no  small  surprise,  ex- 
press his  astonishment  that  any  member  from  the  Valley  should  prefer  the  scheme  of 
the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  to  that  just  offered  by  himself.  I  should  suppose  that 
a  very  slight  examination  of  the  two  plans  would  have  disclosed  very  obvious  rea- 
sons for  such  a  preference.  Li  a  House  of  Delegates,  consisting  of  one  hundred  and 
twenty-seven,  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  offers  to  the  Valley  twenty-four  mem- 
bers. In  a  House  of  one  hundred  and  thirty-nine  at  least,  the  gentleman  from  Ches- 
terfield allows  to  the  Valley  hut  twenty-four.  He  increases  the  numbers  of  the  HotisCj 
without  increasing  the  number  of  the  Valley  Delegates.  If  the  House  of  one  hun- 
dred and  twenty-seven,  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  were  increased  to 
one  hundred  and  thirty-nine,  his  principle  or  rule  of  distribution  would  allow  to  the 
country  west  of  the  Ridge  fifty-eight  members,  while  the  rival  proposition  of  the 
gentleman  from  Chesterfield  allows  it  but  fifty-six.  The  three  additional  members 
which,  out  of  his  enlarged  House  of  Delegates,  he  allows  to  the  whole  country  west 
of  the  Blue  Ridge  of  Mountains,  are  all  bestowed  on  the  trans-Alleghany  country. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


67a 


He  swells  tlie  representation  of  that  country  beyond  its  due  proportion,  (on  the  basis 
of  white  population,)  of  the  whole  number  allowed  by  his  plan  to  the  West ;  and  of 
course  robs  the  Valley  of  its  just  and  equal  share  of  the  pittance  which  he  bestows 
on  the  two  united.  Whereas  the  scheme  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  divides 
what  he  allows  to  the  West  fairly  between  its  two  sections,  according  to  the  most 
correct  estimate  of  the  white  population  of  the  two  districts  at  the  present  time.  And 
yet  the  o-entleman  from  Chesterfield  is  astonished  that  any  member  Irom  the  Valley 
should  prefer  the  scheme  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  to  his  ! 

Having  thus  disposed  (said  lUr.  C.j  of  the  relative  merits  of  the  two  propositions, 
I  will  briefly  consider  the  positive  merits  of  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield, 
as  a  measure  of  conciliation,  addressed  to  the  calm  good  sense  of  the  western  pet  pie 
in  general.  He  proposes  a  House  of  Delegates,  consisting  of  one  hundred  and  thirty- 
niiie  members,  whicii  may  be  augmented,  at  the  discretion  of  tlic  Legislature,  to  the 
number  of  one  hundred  and  sixty.  JNow,  one  objection,  which  the  ]^,o\)\e  of  Wes- 
tern Virginia,  in  common  with  their  fellow-citizens  of  the  East,  would  have  to  the 
plan  in  question,  is,  that  it  unnecessarily  swells  the  whole  number  of  Delegates,  and 
thus  increases  the  expenses  of  the  Government,  and  consequently  the  burthen  of 
taxation.  But  this  objection  is  a  trivial  one,  compared  with  others  which  stare  us  in 
the  face,  on  the  very  presentation  of  his  scheme. 

He  proposes  a  House  of  Delegates  consisting  of  one  hundred  and  thirty-nine  mem- 
bers. He  axdhorises  the  Legislature,  at  its  discretion,  to  create,  from  time  to  time,  ten 
additional  Western  counties,  requiring  it,  should  it  exercise  the  power  so  given,  to 
beslow  on  the  country''  West  of  the  Pcidge  ten  additional  members.  He  moreover 
authorises  the  Legislature,  at  its  discretion,  to  increase  the  power  by  the  addition  of 
twenty-one  members  in  all,  so  as  to  swell  the  total  number  to  one  hundred  and  sixty. 
And  then  twenty-one  members  may  be  given,  at  the  discretion  of  the  Legislature,  to 
amj  tw^enty-one  counties  having  each,  according  to  his  first  distribution,  but  one  re- 
presentative. In  other  words,  the  Legislature  niay ,  or  may  not,  at  its  discretion,  create 
new  counties  in  the  West,  and  consequently  may,  or  may  not,  as  it  pleases,  give  to 
the  Western  country  any  additional  representation.  And  it  may,  if  it  chooses,  at  its 
very  first  session,  add  twenty-one  members  to  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  distribute 
them  all  among  the  small  counties  between  the  City  of  Richmond  and  the  Capes  of 
the  Chesapeake.  And  the  Legislature,  invested  with  these  extraordinary  powers,  is 
divided  between  the  two  great  sections  in  the  prr.prrtion  of  fifty-six  to  the  West,  and 
eighty-three  to  the  East.  An  Eastern  majority  liien,  and  the  East  enjoys  under  his 
scheme  an  overwhelming  majority,  may  at  an}'  moment,  at  its  uncontrolled  will  and 
pleasure,  augment  that  majority  to  such  a  point  that  the  existing  inequality  of  repre- 
sentation, the  great  grievance  of  the  West,  is  absolutely  justice  compared  with  that 
which  he  enables  the  Legislature  to  create.  And  this  is  a  scheme  of  conciliation  and 
compromise  offered  to  the  grave  consideration  of  the  sober-minded  people  of  the  West ! 

I  concede  to  this  scheme  fair  and  honest  purposes,  and  that  is  all  that  1  can  concede. 
I  admit,  that  the  proposed  Legislature  may  add  ten  representatives  to  the  Western  di- 
vision of  the  State,  if  so  disposed.  It  catinot  add  more  than  ten  out  of  the  twenty-one 
additional  members,  no  matter  how  liberal  its  views. 

Now,  Sir,  I  put  it  to  the  candour  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  to  say,  how 
far  such  a  scheme  of  representation  accords  with  his  own  views  of  human  nature,  and 
his  own  estimate  of  human  motives  and  conduct.  How  often  and  how  emphatically 
has  he  told  us  that  selfishness  is  the  great  master-spring  of  human  action.  That  no 
man  of  common  sense,  would  put  his  property,  or  his  interests,  in  the  keeping  or  un- 
der the  control  of  another,  unless  it  was  the  interest  of  that  other  to  discharge  the  trust 
to  his  advantage  !  If  he  be  correct  in  his  theory  of  human  nature,  and  in  his  estimate 
of  the  motives  which  commonly  actuate  men,  how  can  he  exyect  the  people  of  the 
West  to  accept  of  such  a  proposition  ?  How  can  he  expect  that  they  will  accept  a 
scheme  \n\\\c\\  commences  vvitli  giving  them  a  weight  in  the  Legislative  bodies  far  be- 
low that  which  they  claim  as  their  just  and  undoubted  right,  and  believe  to  he  their 
right,  with  a  provision  annexed,  enabling  their  fellow-citizens  in  the  East,  whenever 
they  shall  think  proper,  at  their  arbitrary  will  and  pleasure,  to  reduce  the  pittance  of 
power  at  first  granted  to  them,  to  absob^te  insignificance.  How  can  he  for  a  moment 
beheve  that  the  Western  people  will  consent  thus  to  temijt  their  fellow-citizens  in  the 
East  to  so  gross  an  abuse  of  power 

Has  he  not  told  us,  in  the  most  pointed  and  ernphatical  manner,  that  the  Constitutional 
provision,  offered  at  the  commencement  of  the  session,  by  the  people  of  the  West,  to 
those  of  the  East,  prohibiting  the  Legislature  from  imposing  undue  burthens  of  taxation 
on  the  slave-property  of  the  Eastern  people,  was  "  a  mere  paper  guarantee.^"'  Has  he 
not  treated  the  idea  of  relying  on  such  a  guarantee  v.-ith  absolute  contempt  and  derision  ? 
And  does  he  still  expect  the  people  of  the  West  to  accept  of  a  scheme,  which  contains 
not  even  the  poor  security  of  di  paper  guarantee,  against  an  abuse  of  power  utterly  sub- 
versive of  their  interests  and  their  rights.  I  am,  I  confess.  Sir,  utterly  amazed  at  the 
haracter  of  this  compromise  plan  for  the  security  of  Western  rights.    I  hazard 


680 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


nothing  in  saying  that  the  Western  members  of  this  body  would  vote,  to  a  man, 
against  an?/  Constitution  containing  a  provision  so  odious,  and  that  the  universal  voice 
of  all  the  West  would  at  once  denounce  it,  were  it  to  receive  the  sanction  of  this 
honourable  body. 

One  word,  Sir,  in  regard  to  the  resolution  which  I  yesterday  laid  on  the  table,  au- 
thorising the  Legislature,  as  organized  and  distributed  by  the  scheme  of  the  gentle- 
man from  Albemarle,  to  re-apportion  in  1841,  the  Representation  of  the  people  of 
Virginia  in  the  Legislative  bodies.  That  was  no  scheme  of  mine,  it  was  offered  at 
the  suggestion  and  request,  of  a  respectable  member  of  this  body  from  the  Trans- 
AUeghany  country.  He  thought  that  even  such  a  plan  of^re-apportionment  would  be 
better  than  none,  and  requested  me  to  submit  it  to  the  consideration  of  this  honorable 
body.    It  is  not  now  under  consideration,  and  1  am  little  solicitous  about  its  fate. 

I  do  not  believe,  however,  with  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  that  such  a  pro- 
vision would  ??;3cessarily  produce  a  ten  years'  war  of  faction,  if  the  Constitution,  to 
which  it  should  be  annexed,  were  accepted  by  the  people  of  Virginia.  I  do  not  be- 
lieve that  such  a  state  of  things  would  immediately  ensue  under  any  Constitution, 
sufficiently  equitable  to  unite  in  its  favour  a  majority  of  the  people.  I  believe,  that 
under  any  such  Constitution,  the  people  would  remain  quiet,  until  provoked  by  injus- 
tice, or  a  gross  neglect  of  their  rights.  If,  under  such  a  Constitution,  or  any  Consti- 
tution, the  Government  should  continue,  as  heretofore,  to  act  like  a  step-mother  to 
the  Trans- Alleghany  people,  and  little  better  to  those  of  the  Valley,  the  people  of 
those  regions  would  be,  as  they  now  are,  clamorous  for  a  redress  of  grievances — and 
not  until  then.  I  believe,  that  if  under  such  a  Constitution,  the  Government  were 
to  be  administered  liberally  and  fairly,  with  equal  and  exact  justice  to  all  the  different 
sections  of  the  Commonwealth,  the  people  of  Virginia  are  not  made  of  such  com- 
bustible stuff  as  to  blaze  out  into  factions,  and  run  after  change  merely  for  the  sake  of 
change.  Under  such  a  Government,  the  ten  years'  war  which  he  speaks  of  would 
turn  out  to  be  a  mere  figment  of  his  lively  imagination.  I  repeat,  Sir,  that  as  to  the 
scheme  of  re-apportionment  alluded  to,  but  not  now  under  consideration,  1  am  not 
its  sponsor. 

The  animadversions  which  I  have  made  on  the  compromise  scheme  of  the  gentle- 
man from  Chesterfield,  however  plain  and  unvarnished,  are  made,  not  in  the  spirit  of 
polemical  debate,  but  with  a  direct  view  to  a  friendly  compromise,  if  such  can  be 
made,  of  our  conflicting  pretensions,  and  with  a  view  to  convince  him  that  the  peo- 
ple of  the  West  never  will  or  can  accept  that  which  to  him  appears  so  v;ell  calcu- 
lated to  attract  their  favourable  consideration. 

The  question  being  about  to  be  put  on  Mr.  Leigh's  proposition,  Mr.  George  de- 
manded the  ayes  and  noes,  and  they  were  ordered  by  the  House, 

Mr.  Scott  said,  he  did  not  see  any  good  reason  why  no  new  counties  were  ever  to 
be  formed  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge.  He  could  not  vote  for  the  proposition  in  its  pre- 
sent form,  and  wishing  to  give  it  his  support,  he  moved  as  an  amendment,  to  strike 
out  the  clause  making  that  provision. 

The  motion  was  negatived — Ayes  23. 

Mr.  Stanard  proposed  to  amend  the  proposition  so  as  to  allow  to  each  county  three 
Representatives  when  the  increase  of  its  population  would  render  it  proper. 
Mr.  Leigh  accepted  this  as  a  modification. 

But  Mr.  Henderson  objecting,  the  question  was  taken  on  Mr.  Stanard's  amend- 
ment, and  decided  in  the  negative. 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  Mr.  Leigh's  scheme,  and  decided  by  ayes  and  noes, 
as  follows : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Giles,  BrodnaX, 
Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Nicholas,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Clai- 
borne, Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Stanard,  Holladay, 
Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Coal- 
ter,  Joynes  and  Bayly — 30. 

JS'oes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Marshall,  Tyler,  Clopton,  Anderson,  Coffman, 
Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Bax- 
ter, Madison,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke, Powell,  Griggs,  Mason 
of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell 
of  Washington ,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Sum- 
mers, See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Barbour  of  Culpeper, 
Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Branch,  Townes, 
Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose, 
Upshur  and  Perrin — 66. 

So  the  proposition  of  Mr.  Leigh  was  rejected. 

The  question  now  recurring  on  Mr.  Gordon's  plan, 

Mr.  Doddridge  offered  the  following  amendment : 
After  the  next  Census  to  be  taken  under  the  laws  of  the  United  Slates,  and  every 
ten  years  thereafter^  there  shall  be  a  new  apportionment  of  Representation,  and  a  new 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


681 


assessment  of  land-taxes — each  apportionment  of  Representation  shall  be  made  in  the 
following  manner  and  on  the  following  basis,  viz :  the  number  of  free  white  inhabi- 
tants in  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  the  Federal  basis  in  the  Senate." 

Mr.  Powell  moved  to  amend  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Doddridge  by  striking  there- 
from  the  words  "  after  the  next  Census,"'  and  inserting  in  heu  thereof,  "  after  ihe  year 
1840." 

Mr.  Doddridge  accepted  this  as  a  modification. 

Mr.  Thompson  moved  to  i-nsert    lfc^50,"  instead  of  "  1840." 

Mr.  Doduridge  then  rose  and  addressed  the  Convention  nearly  as  follows: 

Mr.  President, — I  again  submit,  and  perhaps  for  the  last  time,  the  proposition  under 
consideration  The  delegation  of  which  I  am  part,  cannot  assure  the  House  that 
their  constituents  will  adopt  a  Constitution  founded  on  it.  We  believe  they  will,  if 
the  other  provisions  are  acceptable.  This  is  all  that  we  can  say,  and  our  consolation 
is,  that  they  are  not  bound  by  our  act  unless  they  choose  to  adopt  it. 

I  agree  with  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  in  most  of  the  remarks  with  which 
he  introduced  his  plan  of  apportionment  just  rejected.  I  agree  with  him,  that  should 
the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Cooke,)  be  adopted  with  that 
of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  (Mr.  Gordon,)  the  siege  of  Troy  will  soon  com- 
mence. It  will  have  begun  as  soon  as  we  can  see  our  constituents,  and  perhaps  be- 
fore. That  war  may  be  of  longer  continuance  than  the  siege  of  Troy.  It  will  cer- 
tainly continue  until  it  will  have  subdued  the  injustice  proposed  to  be  inflicted  by 
those  propositions. 

The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  supposes,  that  unless  some  rule  for  future  appor- 
tionment shall  be  established,  or  some  permanent  regulation  that  will  render  future 
popular  appeals  unnecessary — in  short,  should  tlie  proposition  of  the  member  from 
Frederick  prevail,  those  seeds  of  interminable  discord  v.-ill  be  scattered  tlirough  the 
country,  which  nothing  but  another  Convention  or  a  division  of  the  State  can  eradi- 
cate. 1  agree  with  the  gentleman  perfectl}-.  I  agree  that  nothing  short  of  a  perma- 
nent provision  for  future  apportionment  can  avert  the  calamity  deprecated.  But,  to 
produce  the  beneficial  effects  of  averting  discord  or  division,  the  rule  of  future  ap- 
portionment must  be  just.  It-must  secure  the  rights  and  accord  with  the  common 
sense  of  the  great  body  of  the  people.  Had  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  pre- 
vailed, the  war  would  have  begun  instantly — and  would  have  commenced,  not  only 
against  the  present  assumed  basis,  but  against  the  gross  injustice,  in  my  opinion,  of 
its  prospective  operation.  '  The  gentleman  supposes,  that  no  good  can  result  from  the 
rule  proposed  by  the  member  from  Frederick,  because  it  settles  no  governing  princi- 
ple;  and  while  1  concur  in  this  opinion,  will  oppose  it  for  another — the  inequality  of 
its  present  basis,  and  the  total  want  of  security  for  the  fair  exercise  of  the  power  to 
be  conferred. 

Mr.  President, — although  not  strictly  in  order,  I  will  bestow  a  few  remarks  on  the 
proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  just  rejected,  in  order  the  better  to  il-  ■ 
lustrate  my  objections  to  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  consider- 
ing the  latter  as  an  entire  whole,  or  as  carried  out  by  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman 
from  Frederick. 

The  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  looks  to  the  state  of  population 
in  1820.  It  reposes  on  the  Federal  Census  of  that  3'ear.  Had  there  been  no  relative 
change  of  population  since,  and  were  we  satisfied  that  none  is  likely  to  happen,  that 
amendment  might  be  acceptable.  It  would  work  no  great  injustice  ;  but  the  efi'ect  of 
adopting  it  now,  either  with  or  without  its  proposed  adjunct,  can  only  be  illustrated 
by  a  statistical  view,  which  I  beg  leave  to  present,  much  as  I  dislike  this  species  of 
labour. 

In  1810,  the  white  population  was  distributed  thus,  viz : 

East  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  338,837 
In  the  Valley,  108,355  >  91979^ 

West  of  the  Alleghany,  104,377  5  ^^^'^^'^^ 

Whole  population ,  551,553 
In  1820,  population  was  distributed  thus,  viz  : 

East  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  348,875 
In  the  Valley,  121,196 
West  of  the  Alleghany,  133,112 


254,308 


Whole  population,  603,081 
And  in  1829,  the  white  population,  as  estimated  by  the  Auditor,  stood  thus; 

East  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  362,745 

In  the  Valley,  138,134  )  ^-^r,K^^^ 

West  of  the  Alleghany,  181,384  5  ^^^'^^^ 

Whole  population,  682,261 
86 


682 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


It  thus  appears  that  in  nineteen  years,  white  population  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  be- 
ginning witii  338,837,  has  increased  to  362,745,  or  to  the  amount  of  29,908.  The  in- 
crease in  the  Valley  having  in  181U,  108,345,  has  been  29,779:  making  in  1829, 138,134. 
These  data  shew  that  the  increase  in  the  Valley  and  in  the  whole  East  are  nearly  equal : 
that  in  the  Valley  being  the  smallest  only  by  a  difference  of  129.  As  the  Valley  has 
kept  pace  with  the  v^'hole  East  for  nineteen  years  past,  so  it  probably  will  hereafter, 
and  therefore,  a  permanent  apportionment  which  would  do  justice  to  the  present 
Valley  and  Eastern  population  with  reference  to  each  other,  might  probably  suit  them 
in  all  future  time ;  yet,  the  same  apportionment  might  operate  the  utmost  excess  of 
cruelty  and  injustice  to  the  Trans-Alleghany  country.  To  concur  in  such  an  one, 
would  be  a  treachery  in  the  Valley,  of  which  we  have  not  the  least  apprehension.  The 
extent  of  this  injustice  will  be  manifested  by  comparing  the  increase  of  that  popula- 
tion during  the  same  period  of  nineteen  years.  In  1810,  we  commenced  with  a  popu- 
lation of  104,377,  which,  in  1829,  is  181,384,  having  increased  77,007,  or  four  times 
as  much  as  either  the  Valley  or  all  tlie  country  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge  mountains. 

I  have  already  observed,  that  the  plan  of  tlie  gentleman  from  Albemarle  rests  on 
the  Census  of  1820.  To  sum  up  its  unquestionable  injustice,  I  will,  for  the  present, 
assume  the  general  correctness  of  the  Auditor's  estimate.  I  will  presently  allude  to 
that  estimate  more  particularly,  and  for  a  different  purpose.  The  increase  of  Western 
population  since  1820,  is  51,336,  after  deducting  from  the  Western  the  whole  Eastern 
increase.  According  to  the  Albemarle  plan,  51,336  white  people  residing  West  of 
the  Blue  Ridge,  are  to  go  unrepresented  from  the  present  moment,  and  they,  with  all 
future  relative  increase  in  the  Vv^est,  are  not  only  excluded  now,  by  the  amendment 
of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  but  will  be  forever  by  the  adjunct  of  the  gentle- 
man from  Frederick,  should  that,  also,  be  adopted. 

Mr.  President, — I  will  now  expose  numerically,  the  injustice  offered  by  the  gentle- 
man from  Albemarle,  under  the  name  of  compromise.  This  I  will  do  first,  and  then 
follow  this  scheme  into  its  SLd^nnct  j^roposed,!  should  say  not  offered  by  the  gentleman 
from  Frederick. 

First,  then,  let  me  observe,  that  if  the  present  w^hite  population  are  to  be  represen- 
ted by  one  hundred  and  twenty-seven  members  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  each 
delegate  will  represent  5,379  white  people — or,  in  other  words,  every  section  of 
5,379  white  people  ought  to  elect  a  delegate  in  this  same  House  of  one  hundred  and 
twenty-seven  members.  The  proportion  East,  being  deducted  from  the  proportion 
West,  leaves  a  difference  equal  to  six  and  a  half  members.  This  may  be  thus  demon- 
strated :  According  to  the  Auditor's  estimate,  the  whole  white  population  amounts 
to  6b2,261 — of  which  the  V/ estern  population  amounts  to  319,516.  The  gentleman 
from  Albemarle  proposes  an  House  of  one  hundred  and  twenty-seven  members.  The 
nuaiber  to  which  the  West  are  entitled  by  their  population  is  thus  proved : 

Whole  white  population  682,261 — entitled  to  members  one  hundred  and  twenty- 
seven. 

To  what  number  the  West  ? 

First,  whole  West,  682,261 :127::319,516:59  325133 

682261 

Of  which  fifty-nine  members,  and  a  half,  the  Valley  and  Trans-Alleghany  country, 
are  entitled  as  follows,  viz  : 

First,  Valley,  682,261 :127:138,124||25  M 

West  of  Alleghany,  '  682,261:127:18l,384||33 « 

So  far  I  have  calculated  by  the  estimate  of  the  Auditor.  If  population  had  not  re- 
latively changed,  the  gentleman's  amendment  is  not  far  from  what  is  right.  By  the 
Census  of  lb20,  we  were  entitled  to  fifty-three  members  and  a  fraction,  and  the  East 
to  seventy-three  and  a  fraction.  This  would  give  a  majority  to  the  East  of  twenty 
members;  but  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  turning  these  fractions  to  the  best  ac- 
count, takes  them  all  to  the  East,  and  makes  out  of  them  an  unit,  and  thus  gives 
the  East  a  majority  of  twenty-one  members. 

Mr.  President, — When  we  stood  on  the  whole  basis  in  this  House  as  fort3''-nine  to 
forty-seven  members,  we  represented  402,000,  and  you  280,000  white  people.  This 
great  majority  was  very  encouraging.  I  admit,  it  is  now  considerably  lessened,  having 
lost  part  of  the  Albemarle  delegation.  The  majority  is  yet  great  enough  to  be  re- 
spected. My  friend  from  Albemarle  overlooks  all  changes  of  population  since  1820, 
because  we  have  no  official  tabulars  of  it  since  then — in  doing  this,  the  gentleman 
takes  from  the  West  six  and  a  half  members  to  which  they  are  now  entitled,  and  adds 
that  number  to  the  East,  which  makes  a  difiFerence  of  thirteen  members.  Then  ta- 
king to  the  East  its  rightful  majority  of  members  according  to  present  population,  and 
making  a  judicious  application  of  fractions,  he  adds  eight  more  members,  and  thus 
acquires  his  majority  of  twenty-one  members. 

The  power  thus  to  be  conferred  on  the  East  by  taking  from  the  West  six  and  a  half 
members,  and  adding-'-them  to  the  East,  is  immense.    It  is  irresistible.    But  then  it 


DEBATES    or   THE  CONVEXTIOX. 


683 


is  not  professedly  taken  as  a  slave  or  other  property  Representation,  and  therefore,  is 
can  be  voted  for  by  those  whose  consciences  will  not  per:;.:':  ^h^^i.i  to  sustain  a  pro- 
perty basis  of  any  kind.  On  what  basis  then  does  the  _  Albemarle  rest 
his  apportionment  ?  Certainly  not  the />resr£?2^  white  .  -  -ad  ti.ouj^ht  we 
both  came  here  to  maintain.  But.  it  is  said  to  be  fou;  r  v.  iiite  basis  of 
and  that  we  have  no  regular  table  of  population  sine-  Mr.  President,  might 
do  if  we  were  ignorant  of  the  fact.  The  gentleman  t„:r=  ,.  .  cr  trom  us  to  give  it  to 
the  East.  This  is  not  done  on  the  mixed.  Federal,  or  any  other  basis  of  property  what- 
ever: but  it  is  done.  It  is  oo'.ver  that  is  taken,  and  power,  after  ail.  /5  power,  and  is 
the  very  thing  demi:.     -      "     East,  by  every  basis  they  have  proposed. 

The  gentleman  fr  ;  ..-  l  .  r  -  -ineld.  and"  his  friends,  admonished  us  very  early  in  this 
debate,  that  interest  is  a  r,  iMiit  passion  not  to  be  controulled  in  political  transactions 
by  all  the  restraints  of  power,  religion,  duty,  or  even  of  oaths;,  and  that,  indeed,  there 
was  no  security  against  its  influence  but  in  the  possession  of  power  to  resist  it.  Our 
present  struggle  has  shewn  that  there  is  too  much  truth  in  this  lesson,  at  least  where 
perpetual  p:-.ver  is  the  object  in  view. 

Knowi::_  T  e  late  increase  of  Western,  over  Eastern  population,  I  foresaw  last 
winter  tii^    -  of  a  Census  of  it  to  be  laid  before  this  Convention.    I  had  the 

honor  to  oiier  a  mecisure  for  it  in  the  late  House  of  Delegates.  That  measure  was 
supported  by  those,  who  I  beheve,  represented  a  majority  of  tlie  people.  It  was  re- 
jected, but  by  whom.-  A  majority  who  represented  a  minority,  and  who  would  not 
permit  an  oificial  table  to  be  laid  before  this  body.  They  had  the  power  to  shut 
out  tills  light,  and  they  exercised  it  because  they  had  it,  and  because  it  suited  their 
purposes  to  conceal  the  truth  from  our  eyes.  The  consequence  is,  that  when  I  com- 
plain of  the  inequality  of  the  proposed  apportionment,  1  must  rely  on  the  present 
state  of  population,  and  on  the  Auditor's  statement  of  its  probable  condition.  But  al- 
though this  is  relying  on  an  estimate.  L  think  I  will  satisfv  everv  man  v.  ho  understands 
the  rule  of  three,  tliat  tills  esliaiate  may  be  relied  on  as  sufnciently  at'  urate  rcr  ti  e 
present  purpose.    I  will  assume  it  as  a  fact,  that  those  paying  a  tax  -    r  :i 

property,  bore  about  the  same  ratio  to  tlie  whole  white  population  in  1  '  i  -  .  1  i  J 
and  1S20,  that  they  did  in  1529.  In  each  of  these  years  there  v  -  ^  ~  -  :  p  pu- 
latioD  taken,  and  in  each,  the  Auditor's  office  will  shew  the  nui;..  -  vir.g 

a  land  tax,  and  the  number  payina-  a  property  tax.  The  prcpd  y  tax  1:  .  li  is  tlie 
safest  document,  because  those  paying  that  tax  are  residents.  What  difiiculty  is  there 
in  ascertaining  what  ratio  the  number  of  those  paying  a  property-  tax  in  any  county, 
bore  to  the  v^-iiite  population  of  the  same  county' in  1790,  in  1800.  1810,  and  1820.? 
And,  as  the  Auditor  possesses  the  tax  books  for  lt29,  what  danger  is  there  of  iall.ng 
into  any~great  error  by  assuming  that  the  tax-pavers  of  1829.  bear  the  same  proportion 
to  the  present  white  population  that  they  did  in  the  several  years  when  a  Census  was 
taken I  have  tried  this  on  the  tables  of  several  counties,  and  there  is  no  difitculty 
in  it.  There  is  a  dificulty,  not  in  arrivino-  at  a  knovriedae  of  the  fact,  but  in  the 
proof.  "SMien  we  assert  that  which  ever;-  man  may  know  to  a  reasonable  certainty,  il' 
he  will,  we  cannot  maintain  our  assertion  by  record  proof. 

I  trust  I  have  proved,  satisfactoniy,  that  the  plan  of  the  c^entientan  from  Albtrnaile, 
is  to  create  an  House  of  Delegates  of  one  hundred  andtwe  -  ^  ^.  members.  T?nd  in 
which  the  East  is  to  have  a  majority  of  twenty-one,  bei:  _  :  .  cn,  or  at  the  very 
least,  thirteen  more  than  the  East  are  entitled  to  by  any  lair  p:::-C4-iie:  An  House  of 
Delegates,  in  which  the  East  is  to  possess  uncontrollable  power  in  the  first  instance. 
To  such  an  House  of  Delegates  it  is,  that  the  gentleman  from  Frexierick  proprses  to 
give  power  to  re-apportion  representation,  after  1840,  or  1841,  v.ithcut  compelhng 
them  to  observe  any  particular  ratio,  principle  or  basis. 

ill  such  an  House  of  Delegates  part  with  their  power.'  Does  my  friend  hope, 
inuch  less  believe  it .'  Before  we  can  believe  tiiese  people  will  impair  their  own  autho- 
rity willingly,  we  must  absolutely  forget  what  happened  so  short  a  time  ago  as  last 
winter,  and  all  that  we  behold  here  every  day  with  our  own  eyes. 

This  would  be  perpetuating  power  to'  be  sure ;  but  then  it 'will  be  an  unequal  and 
oppressive  power,  and  it  would  only  differ  in  degree  from  that  just  view  proposed  by 
the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  whose  plan  of^power,  present  and  future,  has  just 
been  rejected. 

The  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  proposes  an  House  of  Delegates  of  one  hundred 
and  twenty-seven  members.  fil\v-three  of  whom  are  to  be  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge, 
and  of  these  fifty-three,  twenty -nine  are  to  be  West  of  the  Alleghany,  and  twentv- 
four  in  the  Valley.  The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  proposed  the  "whole  number 
of  the  House  of  Delegates  to  be  one  hundred  and  thirty-nine — that  is,  to  add  to  the 
number  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  twelve.  Of  "these,  he  proposed  to  0-iye  to 
the  country  West  of  the  Alleghany  three,  making  their  number  thirty-two — fifivinff  to 
the  \  alley  notliing  in  addition.  Now.  in  his  proposed  House  of  Delegates  of  one  hun- 
dred and  thirty-nine  members,  the  thirty-two  he  proposes  for  the  extreme  West,  bears 
the  same  relative  proportion  to  one  hundred  and  thirty-nine,  as  the  number  twenty- 


684 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


nine  did  to  the  other  whole  number  one  hundred  and  twenty-seven.  The  difference, 
then,  between  the  two  plans,  was  precisely  this:  The  gentleman  from  Albemarle, 
would  commence  with  fifty-three  West  and  seventy-four  East;  and  the  gentleman 
from  Chesterfield,  with  fifty-six  West  and  eighty-three  East — giving  to  the  East  at  the 
commencement,  a  majority  of  twenty-seven,  instead  of  twenty-one. 

But,  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  allows  ten  new  counties  to  be  created  in  the 
West,  and  on  that  account,  ten  additional  members  to  be  granted  to  the  West.  Even 
this  he  refers  to  the  discretion  of  the  pov.  ers  that  be — to  be  exercised  by  a  majority  of 
the  members  of  each  House.  By  his  sclieme,  this  whole  power  might  be  exhausted, 
by  one  legislative  act  of  the  first  Legislature  under  the  new  Constitution.  Suppose, 
then,  the  most  favorable  result — that  ten  new  counties  should  be  made,  and  ten  addi- 
tional members  given  to  the  West:  then  the  West  would  have  sixty-six  members; 
and  if  eleven  should  be  added  to  the  East,  that  would  give  the  East  ninety-four  mem- 
bers, and  thus  there  would  be  an  House  of  Delegates  of  one  hundred  and  sixty  mem- 
bers— the  largest  number  he  would  allow — in  which  the  East  would  have,  in  all  fu- 
ture time,  a  majority  of  tw^enty-eight,  if  even  the  Eastern  population  should  be  station- 
ary, and  the  West  increase  to  a  million. 

1  am  satisfied,  Mr.  President,  that  if  a  Constitution  should  be  offered  to  the  people, 
on  either  of  those  plans,  it  would,  nay,  must  be  rejected  by  the  people.  And,  as  I 
before  said,  I  would  infinitely  prefer  to  do  nothing. 

Mr.  Leigh  observed,  that  he  had  nothing  to  say  in  relation  to  his  own~  proposition. 
He  considered  its  end  as  defeated  the  moment  the  gentleman  from  Frederick  declared 
that  all  the  West  would  vote  against  it;  because  he  presumed  him  to  speak  from  cer- 
tain knowledge.  He  had  only  presented  it  as  a  scheme  for  conciliation  ;  it  failed  of 
its^end,  and  from  that  moment  all  its  value  was  lost.  But  now,  they  had  a  proposi- 
tion by  which  the  property  of  the  East  was  secured  to  ii  for  ten  years,  with  a  reversion 
in  favor  of  the  West  after  that  time.  A  gentleman  from  Amherst,  (Mr.  Thompson,) 
seemed  to  think  the  East  would  surely  be  content  if  they  had  that  possession  extended 
to  twenty  years ;  they  would  not  certainly  repine  if  they  were  allowed  a  life  estate  in 
their  property.  But,  for  one,  he  preferred  the  simple  proposition  of  the  gentleman 
from  Albemarle  without  any  addition  whatever,  to  any  scheme  which  should  contain 
the  admission  that  sooner  or  later  the  property  of  the  East  was  to  pass  over  into  the 
possession  of  the  West. 

Mr.  Thompson  said,  he  had  offered  the  amendment  with  a  view  to  making  the  pro- 
position more  acceptable  to  gentlemen  from  the  East.  He  had  understood  it  to  have 
been  admitted  all  along,  that  the  period  would  arrive  when  the  balance  of  power 
would  pass  into  the  hands  of  the  "W est.  That  period,  if  he  recollected  right,  had  been 
fixed  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  himself  at  about  the  year  1855. 

Mr.  "Leigh  replied,  that  he  had  said  if  the  Auditor's  calculations  were  correct,  and 
the  mixed  basis  should  be  adopted  in  both  Houses,  the  increase  of  population  and 
taxes  to  the  West  might  give  them  the  balance  of  power  about  that  time. 

Mr.  Thompson  said  he  was  by  no  means  tenacious — he  would  withdraw  his  amend- 
ment.   And  he  withdrew  it  accordingly. 

Mr.  Johnson,  adverting  to  the  expense  of  taking  an  assessment  of  all  the  lands  of 
the  State,  thought  that  once  in  ten  years  was  too  frequent,  and  that  once  in  twenty 
years  would  be  sufficient.  His  view  would  be  to  fix  an  apportionment  of  representa- 
tion among  the  great  divisions  of  the  State,  and  then  to  let  the  county  representation 
be  made  as  equal  as  possible  among  the  large  counties.  He  moved  every  twenty  yezxs, 
instead  of  every  ten. 

Mr.  Powell,  with  the  consent  of  Mr,  Doddridge,  varied  his  amendment,  so  as  to 
read  1841,  instead  of  ] 840. 

Mr.  Doddridge  could  not  accept  as  a  modification  the  suggestion  of  Mr.  Johnson, 
as  to  increasing  the  interval  between  the  assessments  from  ten  to  twenty  years. 

Mr.  Powell  said,  that  with  the  deepest  solicitude  any  human  being  could  feel,  he 
had  turned  his  attention  to  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  with  a 
view  to  find  v/hether  it  contained  any  thing  that  would  warrant  him  in  voting  for  it. 
Pie  regarded  the  peace  and  good  feeling  of  the  West  as  of  vast  importance,  and  was  most 
desirous  to  secure  it ;  but  he  really  could  not  bring  himself  to  vote  for  the  plan,  unless 
some  additional  provision  should  be  appended  to  it,  having  respect  to  future  apportion- 
ment He  hoped  something  of  this  kind  which  he  could  approve,  would  be  united 
with  it,  and  then  it  should  have  his  support. 

Mr.  Scott,  in  reply  to  Mr.  Doddridge,  observed,  that  it  seemed  the  gentleman  who 
moved  the  present  amendment,  had  changed  his  opinions  on  the  subject  of  Govern- 
ment. The  House  had  heard  from  that  gentleman  and  from  others  who  acted  with 
him.  very  able  and  ingenious  discussions  on  the  principles  of  republicanism:  They 
had  laid  downi,  a  priori,  what  were  the  distinctions  between  a  republic  and  an  aris- 
tocracy, and  an  oligarchy:  and  this  proposition  or  that,  had  been  pronounced  accepta- 
ble to  them,  according  as  it  squared  with  these  fixed,  unalterable,  a  priori  principles, 
derived  from  nature  and  the  fitness  of  things.    They,  on  his  side  of  the  House,  had 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION". 


655 


contended  for  opposite  doctrines :  they  had  insisted  that  in  establishing  a  Gk)vemment, 
respect  must  be  had  to  the  interests  of  the  goTemed  :  that  men  were  always  swaved 
by  interest:  that  it  was  dangerous  to  trust  to  their  passions — and  that  there  must  be 
a  check  and  controul  founded  in  their  interest,  to  counterl  a^-nce  those  passions, 
^ow.  it  appeared,  the  gentleman  had  at  length,  become  a  c  :.eir  sentiments. 

For,  his  main  objection  to  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  '  d  was  this.  Lhat 

the  onlv  guaranty  it  contained  for  the  security  of  the  West  .  the  members  of 

an  Eastern  Legislature  would  be  (royerned  hy  principle,  ^ow.  it  seemed,  men  were 
very  prone  to  be  goyemed  by  interest,  and  all  that  had  been  said  about  cor.sci-:.  :e. 
and  a  moral  sense,  »S:c.  was  not  to  be  reoarded.  The  gentleman  had  for:;  -:  i 
the  Conyention,  that  the  representation  of  slaye  property  was  utterly  odic ,  ... 
and  to  all  in  that  portion  of  the  State  trom  wiiich  he  came.  But  the  gentleman  was 
a  conyert  on  this  subject  also :  and  now  be  was  the  man  who  proposed  to  engraft  on 
the  scheme  of  compromise,  that  yery  principle  of  the  representation  of  slaye  property. 
The  sreulleman  had  addressed  himself  to  Eastern  Virginia,  and  yery  successlully.  So 
successfully,  that  he  had  induced  them,  out  of  magnanimity;  to  forego  the  interests 
of  that  section  of  countr}-,  for  the  sake  of  principle,  pure  principle,  and  in  pursuance 
of  the  true  doctrine  of  republicanism.  But,  now.  the  gentleman  said  to  those  yery 
men,  I  ask  you  to  defeat  and  oyertum  those  doctrines  which  you  belieye  to  be  the 
a  priori  truths  of  genuine  republicanism :  and  1  ask  you  fmther,  to  enoraft  upon  the 
plan  of  compromise  a  principle  which  I  haye  declared  before  the  world  to  be  unjust 
and  odious  :  and  to  do  this  in  such  a  way  as  to  prostrate  the  interests  of  your  own  consti- 
tuents, for  tlie  sake  of  those  of  a  gentleman  from  Brooke.  "When  the  gentleman  had 
said  he  was  wUling  to  meike  this  sacrifice  for  the  sake  of  compromise,  diey  had  asked 
him  why  he  would  not  consent  to  encrraft  the  same  principle  on  the  House  of  Dele- 
gates ?  The  ingredient  was  the  same  in  either  House.  The  answer  was  furnished 
by  his  present  course.  It  now  seemed  tliat  the  principle  by  which  he  had  been  go- 
verned, and  the  only  principle,  was  a  regard  to  Western  interest.  Xow.  the  o-entle- 
man  avowed  the  principle  that  men  are  goyerned  by  tlieir  views  of  interest.  ^  And, 
thus  situated,  the  gentleman  hoped  to  preyail  with  Eastern  Virginia,  to  induce  her  to 
defeat  his  own  favorite  principle,  and  that  to  the  injury  of  her  own  peop-e  S  : 
was  Mr.  S.  from  regarding  tlie  Federal  number  in  the  Senate  as  a  protect:::  .  .e 
esteemed  it  even  worse  than  the  white  basis  alone.  He  had  rather  accept  tiie  vrLite 
basis  in  both  Houses.  To  organize  one  House  on  one  basis  and  the  other  on  the  other, 
would  be  to  provide  for  a  perpetual  war  between  them. 

The  feature  was  avowedly  odious  to  the  people  of  the  West,  yet  the  gentleman 
pressed  to  have  it  inserted.  He  would  not  say  that  this  was  done  because  tliat  princi- 
ple was  odious  to  the  West :  but  this  was  obvious,  that  if  tlie  gentleman  wished  to 
render  the  new  Constitution  distateful  and  odious  to  the  West,  this  was  a  direct  mode 
of  ejecting  that  object. 

Why  not  accept  of  the  compound  ratio  r  Its  effect  would  be  almost  exactly  the 
same.  He  would  not  answer  the  question.  How  easy  would  it  be  to  expel  tliis  prin- 
ciple from  the  Constitution  :  The  people  of  the  East  began  already  to  be  presented  in 
an  unfriendly  manner  to  their  Western  brethren.  They  were  called  ■•  the  Eastern 
Dons."  The  terms  black  Senate"'  and  negro  Senate"-  were  already  heard.  And 
with  this  spirit  prevailiog,  the  West  were  to  have  the  entire  controul  of  the  House  of 
Delegates.  Who  so  dull'  as  not  to  anticipate  the  process The  lower  House  send  up 
a  popular  bill.  The  Senate  reject  it.  the  West  complains  of  the  rejection.  Xext  year, 
the  same  bill  is  sent  up  again.  The  Senate  again  reject  it.  The  clamour,  the  odium 
is  increased.  Other  bills  are  got  up — for  the  very  purpose  :  so  framed  as  to  insure 
their  rejection.  These  are  sent  up  in  succession,  and  one  aiter  another  are  rejected 
in  the  Senate,  and  this  is  repeated,  until  at  length  the  people  of  tiie  West  are  told, 
and  made  to  believe  it.  that  they  are  despised  and  trampled  on.  The  next  step  is  to 
pass  a  bill  in  the  lower  House  for  the  calling  of  a  Convention.  That  bill  is  rejected 
in  the  Senate.  The  tumult  is  now  heightened.  Next  session  another  bill  for  a  Con- 
vention is  sent  up  :  it  is  rejected  again.  And  what  is  the  next  step  r  It  is  this — to 
call  a  Convention  by  resolution  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  the  Convention  meets 
and  the  obnoxious  principle  is  expelled  from  the  Constilntion. 

I  now  ask.  said  Mr.  S.  if  this  purpose  has  not  been  formed,  and  been  aroiced  since 
this  Convention  has  been  a.^sembled  ?  >»othing,  certainly,  is  more  easy  of  accomplish- 
ment. This  aristocratic  feature,  branded  in  its  very  birth  with  the'  most  odious  of 
names,  what  chance  has  it  to  contend  with  popular  commotion  and  cabal  For  my 
own  part  I  had  much  rather  surrender  the  whole  orround  at  once. 

Mr.  Scott  concluded  by  moving  to  amend  the  amendment  of  !Mr.  Doddridcre.  by- 
transposing  the  terms  Senate  and  House  of  Delegates,  so  that  the  House  of  "Dele- 
gates should  be  based  upon  Federal  numbers  and  the  Senate  on  white  population  ex- 
clusively. 

Mr.  M'Coy  spoke  in  reply :  The  gentleman  from  Fauquier  has  said  that  a  plot  has 
been  formed,  and  avowed,  to  blow  up  this  negro  Senate.    I  teU  him,  that  if  there  is 


686 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


such  a  plot,  I  have  never  heard  of  it.  The  gentleman  from  Fauquier  may  hear  what 
I  do  not.  But,  I  have  never  so  much  as  heard  of  the  plot  he  attributes  to  the  whole 
body  with  whom  I  act.  He  charges  us  with  inconsistency.  This  charge  I  do  not 
take  to  myself.  I  have  never  denied  that  the  people  of  Virginia,  met  in  Convention, 
may  base  their  own  Constitution  in  whatever  pleases  them  best.  But  throughout  the 
whole  of  my  political  life,  I  have  always  thought  that  Government  ought  not  to  be 
based  upon  property.  It  is  my  belief  that  wealth  will  always  take  care  of  itself :  and 
that  it  has  too  much  interest  and  influence  in  controlling  society  already,  without 
giving  it  more  by  Constitutional  provision.  I  agreed  to  introduce  the  Federal  num- 
ber in  the  Senate  for  two  reasons.  I  am  not  for  surrendering  the  principle  contended 
for  by  the  slave-holding  States  in  the  Federal  Government.  The  Federal  Constitu- 
tion gives  to  one  half  of  Virginia  a  representation  based  on  that  number.  And  this 
Convention  has  no  right  to  fix  on  the  State  a  principle  of  miserable  discord.  The 
people  of  the  East  will  have  a  security  in  such  a  Senate  that  will  protect  this  slave 
property  from  all  unjust  legislation.  None  can  disturb  them  in  the  quiet  possession 
of  it.  This  was  the  inducement  with  me  to  consent  to  a  comproiTiise.  I  found  no 
difficulty  in  it,  because  on  this  plan  they  would  not  have  their  property  held  at  the 
discretion  of  those  who,  they  say,  have  got  no  property  themselves.  Now,  we  have 
some  little  property  to  the  West.  But,  we  are  very  poor,  very  poor :  and  I  think  our 
Eastern  friends  are  not  very  rich.  They  have,  to  be  sure,  this  species  of  property, 
which  is  the  cause  of  all  this  distress  ;  and  which  all  admit  is  a  curse.  Now,  I  want 
to  have  them  protected  in  it.  I  cannot  vote  for  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from 
Albemarle,  unless  it  is  to  have  some  provision  for  the  future.  But,  I  am  willing  to 
go  on  for  ten  years  without  disturbing  the  question,  and  twenty  years  after  that ;  but  not 
to  all  time.  If  I  can't  get  something  better  than  this,  I  had  rather  go  back  to  the  old 
Government.  I  shall  vote  against  adopting  the  Constitution  unless  something  better 
than  this  is  to  be  put  into  it.  I  have  listened  with  great  patience  to  the  debates,  (and 
I  am  of  a  very  irritable  temper)  and  said  nothing ;  and  for  the  very  best  reason.  I 
have  no  abilities  for  debate  :  I  am  not  a  talking  man.  I  make  no  pretensions  to  be  so. 
But,  now,  I  am  pretty  well  weary ;  and  I  think  it  is  time  we  had  done. 

Mr.  Leigh  rose  to  state  a  matter  of  history ;  but  one  which  had  a  bearing  on  the 
argument  before  the  House.  It  was,  that  a  gentleman  had  called  on  him  that  morning 
and  informed  him,  that  the  gentlemen  from  the  Valley  had  assured  that  gentleman 
that  they  were  ready  to  take  the  compromise  of  the  gentlen)an  from  Albemarle  as  it 
stood,  and  would  recommend  a  Constitution  with  that  feature  in  it,  to  the  adoption  of 
their  own  constituents :  and  this  statement  had  been  made  to  him  (Mr.  L.)  with  a  view 
to  regulate  his  conduct  in  reference  to  his  own  proposition. 

The  interview  had  the  effect  to  render  him  less  zealous  than  he  otherwise  should 
have  been  in  advocating  the  proposition  :  and  it  explained  to  him  the  votes  which 
had  been  given  against  it,  and  which  he  had  expected  to  have  been  given  in  its  favour. 
He  stated  that  fact  to  shew  its  influence  on  his  own  course.  The  experiment  was 
now  about  to  be  made,  (he  was  going  to  say  for  the  last  time,)  to  see  whether  the 
East  would  be  content  to  agree  to  a  compromise  in  which  they  were  to  accept  a  ten 
years  lease,  and  give  up  the  fee  simple  of  their  property. 

Whether  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Powell.)  was  one  to  whom  he  alluded, 
he  could  not  tell.  But  now  was  the  time,  as  he  supposed,  when  this  question  of  the 
basis  was  to  be  definitively  settled. 

Mr.  Powell  said,  that  when  he  had  been  last  on  the  floor,  he  gave  the  Convention 
a  solemn  and  most  sincere  assurance  that  he  could  not  vote  for  the  proposition  of  the 
gentleman  from  Albemarle,  in  conscience.  And  no  individual  had  any  right  to  say 
that  he  was  prepared  to  vote  for  that  proposition  against  his  conscience.  He  never 
had  said  to  any  one  that  he  was  prepared  to  vote  for  it  as  it  stood ;  and  from  whatever 
source  his  information  was  derived,  there  was  no  truth  in  the  author's  statement,  so 
far  as  he  was  concerned. 

Mr.  M'Coy  said,  it  was  very  probable  he  had  said  that  if  he  was  reduced  to  the 
dilemma  of  taking  one  or  the  other,  he  should  prefer  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from 
Albemarle  to  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield ;  but  he  could  take  neither,  un- 
less there  was  added  some  principle  of  future  apportionment.  Either  would  suit  him 
very  well  for  the  time  present,  but  he  did  not  come  here,  and  the  people  did  not  send 
him  here,  to  agree  to  any  temporary  expedient.  He  wanted  something  that  should 
last  through  time.  He  had  no  objections  to  the  propositions  in  the  plan  of  the  gen- 
tleman from  Albemarle,  or  even  of  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  :  but  to 
me  it  seems  that  no  man  could  cast  his  eye  upon  the  last,  and  not  see  that  if  that  is 
to  be  adopted,  the  East  must  rule  through  all  time.  No  matter  where  the  population 
shall  be,  or  what  shall  be  the  growth  of  the  Western  country,  the  East  is  to  rule  them 
through  all  time. 

Mr.  Mason  of  Frederick,  now  addressed  the  Convention  as  follows  : 
Mr.  President :  By  those  with  whom  I  have  the  advantage  of  personal  acquain- 
tance, I  shall  never  be  suspected  of  being  influenced  in  rising  by  the  petty  ambition 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


687 


of  hearing  my  voice  sound  within  these  walls.  Could  I  he  thus  actuated,  I  should  be 
admonished  to  silence  by  the  attitude  in  which  I  stand  to  this  Assembly.  I  am  here 
as  the  humble  successor  of  one.  who  was  honoured  as  the  pe^-ple's  choice — tlieir  con- 
fidence was  not  given  to  me:  for  my  seat  I  am  indebted  to  liie  kind  estimate  ot  those 
who  are  now  my  coheagues. 

"Were  more  wanting  to  repress  me.  1  should  be  further  and  sternly  admonished,  by 
the  august  presence  of  this  Assembly.  But,  Sir,  the  time  has  come,  when  to  remain 
silent  might  be  to  betray — Coming  as  I  do  more  recently  from  the  people.  I  may  per- 
haps bear  with  me  a  fresher  impression  of  their  ietlings  on  this  momentous  question, 
and  though  by  accident  their  representative,  they  shall  find  me  not  less  true  to  the 
trust. 

Though  not  present  at  your  deliberations,  I  have  been  not  an  unmindful  observer 
of  all  that  has  passed  on  this  much  vexed  question  of  representation.  Tbrough  the 
faithful  medium  of  the  press,  I  have  attentively  heard  and  maturely  1  hope,  considered 
all  that  has  been  urged  on  either  side — and  have  taken  a  view  of  this  controversy  dif- 
ferent from  any  that  I  have  seen  presented.  "Tis  true,  Sir,  as  has  been  avowed  on 
this  floor,  that  it  is  a  struggle  for  power — but  not  as  I  imagine,  a  struggle  between  the 
East  and  the  West.  It  is^one  of  those  fearful  contests,  of  which  all  history  is  full, 
in  which  the  Government  is  on  one  side,  and  the  jjeople  are  on  the  other. 

Instances  almost  innumerable  might  be  adduced,  when  at  periods  more  or  less  fre- 
quent in  the  history  of  every  Government,  (I  care  not  what  its  form)  this  controversy 
has  arisen  between  the  people  and  tlie  ridincr  power. 

The  people  demand  the  restitution  of  an  usurped  authority — the  Government  re- 
fuses to  accede — the  people  persist — the  Government  stand  firm  in  their  refusal — an 
issue  is  feartully  made  up — most  generally  the  momentous  trial  of  right  is  avoided  by 
a  compromise — when  that  fails,  there  is  left  but  the  narrow  choice,  between  an  abject 
submission,  or  the  most  spirited  resistance.  I^am  afraid,  Su',  we  are  now  brought  to 
that  point  in  our  deliberations. 

Let  us  briefly  review  the  liistory  of  this  Convention.  I  shall  make  no  laboured 
exposition  from  the  statistical  tables  with  which  we  have  been  furnished,  to  shew  that 
it  has  been  called  hy  a  large  majority  of  the  white  population  of  the  State — I  am  war- 
ranted in  that  assertion,  it  was  loudlv  a^ain  and  again  demanded  at  the  hands  of 
the  Government,  before  it  was  extended — in  ItlT,  the  popular  clamour  was  for 
the  time  appeased,  by  a  new  arranorement  of  the  Senatorial  districts,  so  as  to  accom- 
modate that  branch  somewhat  nearer  to  an  equal  representation  of  the  white  popu- 
lation. 

The  douceur  had  its  eflect,  and  the  evil  day  for  the  time  postponed.  But  it  could 
not  last — the  thing  was  wrong  in  itself — the  people  would  never  be  satisfied  so  long  as 
they  were  held  in  a}l  things  obedient  to  the  will  of  a  confessed  minority.  This,  Sir^ 
was  the  grievance.  The  Government  was  called  to  retribution  in  this — a  Convention 
was  demanded  ah*nost  for  this  alone — I  speak.  Sir,  for  the  people  whom  I  am  here  to 
to  represent  in  part,  and  for  the  whole  adjacent  country.  I  speak  the  voice  of  the 
entire  West  when  I  sa}-,  that  to  equalize  the  representation — to  place  the  Govern- 
ment where  of  right  it  ought  to  be,  in  the  hands  of  the  majority  of  the  political  com- 
munity, was  the  controihng  motive  wliich  impelled  them  to  a  Convention. 

Other  objects  may  have  been  in  view,  but  they  were  of  far  minor  consideration — 
compared  with  this,  they  were  but  as  a  feather  in  the  scale.  A  minority,  and  a  very 
small  minority,  wielded'  the  whole  power  of  the  State.  The  foundations  of  our  in-  _ 
stitutions  were  subverted,  and  the  grand  eflibrt  was,  to  restore  the  power  where  it 
rightfully  belonged,  to  the  majority  of  the  people.  I  speak.  Sir,  of  the  only  majority  I 
ever  knew — a  majority  of  the  political  community — of  the  free  white  population. 
Much  refined  and  able  reasoning  has  been  adduced'  to  shew,  that  this  is  not  the  true 
majority — I  have  neither  time  now,  nor  perhaps  ability  to  reply  to  the  argument,  but 
permit  me  to  say  in  part,  to  tlie  gentleman  on  the  other  side,  who  has  attacked  this 
republican  fortress  v.-ith  most  eflect,  in  the  language  of  a  pithy  poet,  "  addidit  rohur 
intalidm  facundia  causa."  ° 

1  never  can  acknowledge  but  one  majority  in  our  country — and  those  whom  we 
represent  here,  expect  us  to  keep  this  steadily  in  view. 

Again,  by  our  brethren  of  the  East,  the  right  of  the  majoritv  to  rule,  is  denounced 
as  an  abstract  principle.  If  any  principle,  apart  from  practice,  i's  worthy  to  be  denoun- 
ced, it  must  be,  because  such  principle  is  not  only  in  practice,  inapphcable,  but  ought 
not  to  be  applied.  When  such  principle  is  found  in  the  abstract,  and  is  ascertained 
impracticable,  I  agree  that  it  ought  to  be  denounced— but  if  the  principle  in  question 
be  such,  surely  all  popular  Goverament  resting  upon  it,  is  included  in  the  denuncia- 
tion. To  thi^s,  gentlemen  are  inevitably  brought — and  if  their  denunciation  be  right- 
ful, what  a  farce  is  your  whole  scheme  of  popular  Government.  If  it  be  righfful, 
put  aside  at  once  all  your  popular  forms,  and  assume  some  other  rule  of  power.  Only, 
we  entreat  you,  let  your  people  know  what  their  Government  in  truth  is.  Do  not 
announce  it  in  your  Bill  of  Rights  in  one  breath,  and  violate  it  in  your  Constitution 


688 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


in  the  other,  Speak  boldly  forth  and  let  the  people  know  that  power  is  no  longer 
their's — don't  "  keep  the  word  of  promise  to  the  ear,  and  break  it  to  the  hope." 

But,  Sir,  we  are  told  on  the  other  side,  in  further  answer,  you  require  of  us  by 
your  scheme  of  Representation,  to  surrender  up  our  property  to  your  absolute  con- 
troul.  Though  I  should  rely  much  on  the  strong  sound  sense  which  pervades  the 
people,  I  have  no  overweening  confidence  in  public  virtue- — 1  know  well  that  under 
that  mask,  much  and  cruel  injustice  has  been  done.  Jt  is  seldom  safe,  to  trust  one 
man,  or  a  set  of  men  with  the  property  of  another.  But  the  supposition  that  we  re- 
quire this,  is  clearly  gratuitous.  Property,  as  the  subject  of  taxation,  is  diffused 
through  the  whole  State.  Though  you  of  the  East  may  have  much,  we  of  the  West  (as 
we  have  been  just  told  by  the  venerable  gentleman  tirom  Pendleton.)  have  some  little 
too.  In  a  question  of  taxation,  or  of  confiscation,  he  who  has  little  is  as  deeply  con- 
cerned as  he  who  has  more. 

The  rich  argosie  which  bears  abroad  a  nation's  wealth,  takes  with  it  too  the  sea- 
man's humble  venture — if  dash'd  upon  a  rock,  or  plundered  by  pirates  of  the  sea — the 
merchant  is  dispoiled  of  his  gains — whilst  the  seaman's  all  has  perished.  Does  not 
the  figure  illustrate.? 

"Where  then  is  the  disparity  found The  grain-grower  of  the  West  may  have  an 
humble  competency — whilst  his  more  favored  neighbour  of  the  East,  mayjiave  that 
which  commands  the  luxuries  of  the  Indies — tax  them  both  equally — they  both  feel 
it  equally — and  though  the  Eastern  man  pays  more,  he  in  fact  feels  its  loss  far  less. 
This  argument  will  apply  throughout,  as  far  as  property  is  homogeneous. 

But  an  objection  is  drawn  from  the  fact  that  there  is  to  the  East  a  peculiar  species 
of  property  of  which  the  redundancy  is  there  so  great,  that  there  is  no  correspondent 
sympathy  to  the  West.  I  give  to  this,  Sir,  its  full  weight.  Not  that  I  believe  there 
is  any  real  ground  of  apprehension,  that  it  may  be  unjustly  taxed ;  but  its  character 
is  so  peculiar,  that  I  can  well  appreciate  the  anxiety,  which  would  place  it  beyond 
the  reach  of  harm.  It  is  the  peculium  of  the  South,  unfortunately  there,  we  believe; 
yet  so  long  as  it  remains,  it  should  be  sacred  in  their  hands  :  In  its  careful  manage- 
ment, and  delicate  conversation,  those  who  possess  it,  have  a  deeper  stake,  than  the 
mere  right  of  property :  it  is  natural  they  should  be  sensitively  alive  to  all  that  affects 
it,  and  far  be  it  from  me  to  advise  any  profane  approach. 

But,  Sir,  having  made  this  acknowledgment,  is  it  not  asking  too  much  in  return, 
that  for  the  sake  of  that,  we  should  surrender  to  them  our  birth-right.?  That  w^  should 
hand  over  to  them  an  absolute  dominion  over  ourselves — or  rather  should  I  not  say, 
submit  to  their  exaction.?  for  as  such  is  it  required. 

Mr.  President, — To  quiet  this  apprehension,  v/e  have  offered  to  concede  mnch — 
at  least,  so  we  have  fondly  thought.  We  offer  it  now,  and  I  fear  for  the  last  time, 
by  the  amendment  in  your  hands.  We  offer  a  guarantee  in  the  Senate,  by  infusing 
there  the  Federal  numbers.  But  the  popular  branch  must  be  pure.  Distant  as  we 
are  from  our  constituents,  we  cannot  say  how  far  they  will  sanction  this  concession. 
I  for  one,  am  willing  to  assume  the  responsibility ;  and  if  wrong,  to  look  for  my  ac- 
quittal in  that  generous  confidence,  on  which  the  Representative  principle  is  founded. 
The  gentleman  from  Brooke,  who  offered  the  amendment,  and  my  colleagues,  nay, 
the  entire  West,  will  go  thus  far.  But,  Sir — I  speak  it  not  in  anger,  nor  as  menace — 
when  I  say,  farther  I  cannot  go — farther  (I  think  I  may  speak  it  for  them,)  they  will 
not  go.  Take  it  then  as  our  ultimatum.  So  far  as  I  know  the  will  of  those  whom 
I  represent,  every  principle  of  obedience  forbids  it.  Though  now  a  minority  in  the 
Government,  they  have  become  so  by  the  fortuities  of  time  and  accident.  To  remain 
such  by  their  own  act,  as  they  would  do,  b}^  taking  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman 
from  Albemarle,  without  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Brooke,  would  rivet 
their  chains,  and  conclude  them  for  ever. 

As  to  what  has  been  said  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  of  a  communication 
to  him,  that  many  of  the  Valley  members  would  unite  on  the  plan  of  the  gentleman 
from  Albemarle,  if  his  was  abandoned,  it  must  have  been  founded  in  misconception — 

[Here  Mr.  Neale  interposed  to  explain,  &c.] 

The  gentleman  from  Richmond,  is  not  the  man  to  misrepresent,  but  he  may  have 
misapprehended — 

Mr.  Neale  here  again  interposed,  and  said: 

Mr.  President, — 1  rise  to  state,  that  it  was  to  me  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield 
alluded,  when  he  said,  that  a  member  of  this  House,  had  this  morning  made  a  com- 
munication to  him,  as  to  the  probable  vote  of  the  Western  members  on  the  proposition 
of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  (Mr.  Gordon.)  I  had  not  intended  to  have  noticed 
the  allusion,  knowing  that  in  the  course  of  the  debate,  the  whole  matter  would  be  ex- 
plained by  others;  but  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Mason,)  has  again  refer- 
red to  the  subject,  and  I  feel  bound  to  put  this  matter  upon  the  ground  it  should  rest. 

Two  gentlemen  of  honorable  distinction  in  this  body  as  elsewhere,  who  will,  I 
doubt  not,  at  a  proper  time,  confirm  what  I  am  about  to  state,  were  conversing  with^ 
me  last  evening  on  the  subject  of  the  vote  given  yesterday  in  favour  of  the  plan  of 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTIOX. 


689 


Representation  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  50  to  46.  They  expressed 
an  opinion  in  which  I  fully  concurred,  that  it  was  the  final  opinion  of  the  House,  and 
that  the  Western  plan  was  irretrievably  lost.  Tlie}^  expressed  great  apprehension 
that  the  new  scheme  of  the  gentleman  trom  Chesterfield,  (Mr.  Leigh.)  might  be  car- 
ried by  the  Eastern  gentlemen.  The}^  stated  that  such  a  result  would  prove  fatal  to  the 
last  hope  of  forming  a  Constitution  which  would  be  accepted  by  the  people  of  Virginia:  . 
That  they  could  not  vote  for  a  Constitution  so  obnoxious  and  injurious  to  the  West,  and 
the  people  of  the  West  would  vote  against  it  to  a  man,  and  so  would  many  of  the  East:  >. 
That  if  that  scheme,  so  odious  to  the  West,  could  be  defeated,  they  had  sanguine  hopes, 
and  were  of  opinion,  that  twenty  or  more  of  the  Western  members,  now  that  their 
favorite  plan  was  lost,  would  unite  with  the  East  in  voting  for  the  plan  of  the  gentle- 
man from  Albemarle,  which  in  their  opinion,  was  in  fact,  more  beneficial  to  the  West 
than  their  own  favorite  plan:  That  if  the  Eastern  gentlemen  would  be  satisfied  with 
the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  (JSh.  Gordon,)  they  would  advocate 
it,  (as  all  their  own  schemes  had  failed.)  and  that  they  thought,  that  gentlemen  from 
the  West  (in  which  I  certainly  understood  that  the  Valley  was  included.)  would  very 
probably  to  the  number  of  more  than  twenty,  unite  with  them — and  if  I  concurred,  I 
might,  if  I  thought  proper,  communicate  the  same  to  my  friends.  That  their  own 
schemes  had  failed;  and  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  they  deemed  ob- 
noxious and  injurious;  and  they  were  willing  to  take  the  plan  voted  for  as  presented 
by  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  it  being  the  best  which  they  thought  could  be  got. 

I  this  morning  made  the  communication  to  many  of  my  political  friends,  among 
whom,  was  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  to  the  effect  of  which  I  have  stated,  and 
expressing  always,  that  I  believed,  that  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle 
would  be  voted  for  by  members  from  the  West :  That  1  had  great  reliance  in  the 
opinion  and  discretion  of  those  with  whom  I  had  conversed,  witliout  even  having 
named  the  gentlemen  to  my  friends. 

I  considered  the  information  which  I  gave  as  important,  if  we  wished  to  frame  a 
popular  Constitution — and  to  my  mind,  as  good  a  compromise  of  the  question  of  Re- 
presentation as  it  was  practicable  to  obtain. 

I  was  well  convinced  that  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  could  not  go 
down;  and  I  voted  against  it,  in  the  hope,  that  the  prediction  of  the  gentlemen,  with 
whom  I  conversed  last  night  might  prove  correct,  as  to  the  fate  of  the  scheme  of  the 
gentleman  from  Albemarle.    In  all  this  matter  I  laboured  sincerely,  to  put  at  rest  for-  - 
ever,  (if  I  could)  this  much  agitated  and  agitating  question  of  Representation. 

Mr.  Mason — If  the  gentleman  is  right  in  his  apprehension,  I  am  entirely  ignorant 
to  whom  there  is  allusion — certainly  not  to  me. 

I  have  finished,  Sir,  all  that  I  had  to  say.  I  feel — deeply  feel — interested  in  the 
fate  of  the  amendment ;  for  on  it  hangs,  I  fear,  the  peace — the  peace — if  not,  the  in- 
tegrity of  Virginia. 

The  question  was  then  put  on  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Johnson,  (proposing  an  in-  - 
terval  of  twenty  years  between  the  assessments  of  the  lands  of  the  State,)  and  it  was 
adopted. 

Mr.  Summers  moved  to  insert  the  words  at  least"  before  the  words  "twenty 
years:"  but  it  was  lost. 

Mr.  Scott  now  moved  to  amend  so  as  to  give  the  Federal  number  as  a  basis  of  Re- 
presentation in  the  Lower  House,  and  the  white  basis  in  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke,  moved  an  adjournment,  but  it  was  lost. 

Mr.  Doddridge  demanded  the  ayes  and  noes  on  Mr.  Scott's  motion,  and  they  were 
ordered  by  the  House. 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Scott,  (to  reverse  the  two 
Houses,  putting  the  Federal  number  in  the  Lower  House,  and  the  white  basis  in  the 
Senate.)  and  decided  in  the  negative  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)' Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  "Goode,  Manshall,  Nichnlas,  Mason 
of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart.  Randolph.  Leigh  of  Halifax.  Lrgan, 
Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Carohne,  Morris,  Garnett, 
Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prenlis.  Grigsby, 
Branch,  Townes,  Bates,  Neale,Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrm — 44. 

J\'oes — Messrs.  Tyler,  Clopton,  Anderson.  Cofiinan,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin, 
Johnson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitziiugh,  Hender- 
son, Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  iSaylor,  Donaldson, 
Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chap- 
man, Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers.  See,  Doddridge.  Morgan, 
Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  CamplDell  of  Bedford.  Clay  tor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Martin, 
Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson  and  Massie — o2. 

So  Mr.  Scott's  amendment  was  rejected. 

The  question  next  recurred  on  Mr.  Doddridge's  amendment,  when 

87 


690 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  Scott  moved  to  amend  it  so  as  to  give  the  Senate  a  basis  on  Federal  numbers, 
and  the  Lower  House  a  basis  on    population  and  taxation  combined." 

Mr.  Doddridge  asked  the  ayes  and  noes  which  were  ordered  and  taken  accordingly, 
and  stood  as  follows  : 

£t/es — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax, 
Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris, 
Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis, 
Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and 
Perrin — 45. 

JYoes — Messrs.  Clopton,  Anderson,  CofFman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  John- 
son, M'Cov,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson, 
Odborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pen- 
dletoa,  George,  M'MiUan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Ma- 
thews, Oglesby,  Duncan.  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of 
Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart, 
Pleasants,  Gord(m,  Thompson  and  Massie — 51. 

So  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Scott  was  rejected. 

Mr  Martin  now  moved  to  amend  by  striking  out  <^  1841,"  and  inserting  "  1850," 
(for  the  time  of  re-apportionment  of  the  Representation  in  the  Legislature.) 

This  amendment  was  also  rejected  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

^^t/es — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield, 
Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Mason 
of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Vena- 
ble, Stanard,  Hf)lladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Cul- 
peper, Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes, 
Martin,  Pleasants,  Massie,  Bates,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly  and  Perrin — 43. 

JVoes — Messrs.  Jones,  Goode,  Anderson,  CotFman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin, 
Johnson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Logan,  Madison,  Mercer, 
Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor, 
Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars, 
Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge, 
Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders, 
Cabell,  Stuart,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Neale  and  Upshur — 53. 

The  question  was  at  length  taken  on  Mr.  Doddridge's  amendment  as  amended  by 
Mr.  Johnson,  viz: 

"  After  the  year  1841,  and  every  ticenty  years  thereafter,  there  shall  be  a  new  ap- 
portionment of  Representation,  and  a  new  assessment  of  land  taxes — each  apportion- 
ment of  Representation  shall  be  made  in  the  following  manner  and  on  the  following 
basis,  viz :  the  number  of  free  white  inhabitants  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  the 
Federal  basis  in  the  Senate." 

When  the  vote  stood  as  follows : 

Aijes — Messrs.  Anderson,  CofFman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson, 
M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Madison,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Hender- 
son, Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd, 
Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman, 
Miithews,  Ooflesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell 
of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Stuart,  Thomp- 
son and  Massie — 48. 

Koes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Clopton,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh 
of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris, 
Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis, 
Grigsby.  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter, 
Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 48. 

So  the  amendment  not  having  a  majority  in  its  favour  was  lost. 

[The  Convention  therefore,  have,  a  second  time,  rejected  the  proposition  to  base 
Representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates  on  the  white  population  exclusively.] 

Mr.  Cooke  now  rose,  and  spoke  as  follows : 

He  said,  that  he  felt  himself  impelled  by  so  strong  a  sense  of  duty  to  state  his 
views  of  the  subject  under  the  consi;leration  of  the  House,  that  even  at  that  late  hour 
of  the  day,  v/hen  the  {(atience  and  the  physical  strength  of  his  auditors  had  been  worn 
out  by  a  protracted  and  agitating  session,  he  was  induced  to  throw  himself  on  the  in- 
dulgence of  that  honourable  body.  And  if,  (continued  Mr.  C.)  in  the  remarks  which 
I  propose  to  make,  I  shall  subject  myself  to  the  charge  of  egotism,  I  rely  with  confi- 
dence on  the  kindness  of  the  House,  and  shall  expect  their  forgiveness ;  not  only  be- 
cause it  is  my  first  offence,  but  because  it  vi^ill  be  seen  that  the  peculiar  position  in 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


(591 


which  I  stand,  renders  egotism  indispensable — absolutely  essential  to  the  exposition 
of  my  views. 

Without  further  preamble,  then,  I  say,  that  from  the  year  1816,  and  I  might  safely 
say  from  a  much  earlier  period,  I  have  been  a  firm  and  zealous,  and  am  accused  of 
having  been,  an  uncompromising  friend  of  reform.  I  am  one  (if  three  persons,  all 
at  this  time  present,  and  members  of  this  honorable  bod\' — I  allude  to  the  two  gentle- 
men from  Berkeley,  (Gen.  Boyd  and  Mr.  Pendleton.)  who  in  the  month  of  February, 
1816,  gave  the  first  decided  impulse  to  the  cause  of  constitutional  reform  among  the 
people  of  Western  Virginia.  At  the  period  just  mentioned,  we  caused  a  circular  let- 
ter to  be  addressed  to  gentlemen  in  various  parts  of  the  Commonwealth,  who  in  con- 
sequence of  the  invitation  contained  in  it,  assembled,  to  the  number  of  some  twenty 
or  thirty,  in  the  month  of  May  following,  in  the  town  of  Winchester.  At  tliat  Con- 
vention, the  grievances  of  Middle  and  Western  Virginia,  and  the  most  efficient  means 
of  obtaining  redress,  were  the  topics  discussed  and  considered.  It  resulted  in  an  ear- 
nest appeal  to  the  friends  of  reform,  throughout  the  Commonwealth,  urging  them  to 
assemble  in  their  respective  counties  on  the  4th  of  JuU*  following,  for  the  purpose  of 
electing  Delegates  to  a  Convention,  to  be  held  at  Staunton,  in  the  month  of  August 
following. 

The  avowed  purpose  of  assembling  that  general  Convention  of  the  friends  of  re- 
form, was  to  devise  means  for  effecting  a  full  and  free  Convention  of  the  people  of 
Virginia,  for  the  reform  of  her  institutions  ;  a  Convention  which  should  enforce,  by  a 
new,  or  amended  Constitution,  the  equal  rights  of  all  the  people  of  Virginia  ;  a  Conven- 
tion which  should  give  practical  effect  to  the  great  political  principles  announced  in 
the  Declaration  of  the  Rights  of  the  people  of  Virginia,  which  do  pertain  to  them 
and  their  posterity  ;"  to  the  principles,  that  '*  all  jmiccr  is  vested  in,  and  consequently 
derived  from,  the  people.'"  and  that  '•  a  majority  of  the  people  have  an  indubitable,  un- 
alienable, and  indefeasible  right."  to  controul  the  affairs  of  the  Commonw'ealth  : 
Principles  wholly  disregarded  in  the  actual  Constitution  of  Virginia. 

A  Convention  of  the  friends  of  reform  was  held  at  Staunton  in  consequence  of  this 
appeal.  The  result  is  known  ;  and  I  will  not  weary  you  by  pursuing  further  the 
liistory  of  that  popular  movement  which  at  lengtii  resulted  in  the  assembling  of  this 
Convention. 

But  I  will  say.  and  I  say  it  proudly,  that,  from  the  time  of  that  first  movement  to 
the  day  on  which  I  address  you,  I  have  been  a  fi.rm,  an  undeviating,  a  zealous,  aye, 
Sir,  an  ardent  friend  of  the  rights  of  the  people.  The  promotion,  the  enforcement,  of 
those  rights,  by  constitutional  reform,  has  ever  since  been,  and  still  is,  an  object  near 
and  dear  to  my  heart.  Notwithstanding  the  vicious  principle  of  representation  under 
which  this  body  was  elected — notwithstanding  that  provision  of  its  organic  law,  which 
gives  to  fifteen  thousand  citizens,  near  to  tlie  line  of  North  Carolina,  the  same  repre- 
sentation with  sixty  thousand  who  dwell  in  a  trans-Alleghany  district,  I  did  not 
"  despair  of  the  Republic."  I  did  not  abandon  the  hope,  to  which  I  had  clung  so 
long,  that  a  Constitution  would  be  formed,  b}'^  which  the  equal  representation  of  the 
people  of  Virginia,  in  both  of  the  Legislative  bodies,  would  be  carried  into  full  effect. 
To  that  hope  I  clung  till  my  reason  told  me  to  despair  of  its  accomplishment.  After 
a  protracted,  an  obstinate,  and  I  may  almost  say,  a  fierce  contest  in  this  Assembly  of 
several  weeks  duration,  it  was  but  too  apparent  that  victory  had  deserted  the  banner 
of  the  friends  of  reform — that  they  had  not  numerical  strength  in  this  Assembly  to 
carry  into  full  effect  the  principles  of  their  political  creed — that  the  effort  to  obtain  an 
equal  representation  of  the  peojjle  of  Virginia  in  the  Government  of  Virginia,  must  be 
abandoned  as  hopeless.  ' 

But  still,  much  had  been  gained.  The  rnmparts  of  the  old  Constitution  had  been 
defended,  it  is  true,  with  a  zeal,  an  ability,  and  a  gallantry,  that  must  extort  praise 
even  from  an  enemy.  Our  ranks  had  been  thinned,  and  many  of  our  attacks  had 
-  been  repelled.  But  we  were  neither  routed  nor  dismayed.  Thus  much,  at  least,  we 
had  attained  :  It  was  given  up  on  all  hands,  that  the  actual  distribution  of  political 
power  through  the  territory,  and  among  the  people  of  Virginia,  under  the  existing 
Constitution,  was  too  grossly  unequal  to  be  longer  endured,  and  that  a  more  equitable 
plan  of  distribution  was  indispensably  necessar}^  The  disfranchised  class  of  the 
non-freeholders,  too,  had  found  favour  in  the  eyes  of  a  majority  of  this  Assembly ; 
and  it  was  ascertained,  that  a  Constitution  would  receive  its  assent,  by  which  four 
additional  classes,  to  wit:  small  freeholders,  reversioners  and  remainder-men,  lessees 
for  years,  and  house-keepers  paying  taxes,  should  be  admitted  to  a  participation  in  the 
sovereignty  of  the  country.  It  had  also  been  ascertained  to  be  the  sense  of  a  majo- 
rity of  this  body,  that  our  unwieldy  House  of  Delegates  should  be  reduced  in  number, 
and  the  expenses  of  the  Government  diminished.  Other  useful  and  oeconomical  re- 
forms, it  was  known  would  receive  its  sanction.  It  w^as  ascertained,  in  short,  that 
thoiigh  the  equal  representation  of  tlie  people  could  not  be  carried,  a  great  approxi- 
mation towards  it  was  attainable. 


692 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Under  these  circumstances,  the  alternative  was  presented  to  the  friends  of  reform, 
on  the  one  hand,  of  abandoning  the  contest,  and  dissolving  this  Assembly,  without 
forming  any  Constitution,  or,  on  the  other,  of  endeavouring  to  effect  something  like 
a  fair  compromise  on  the  great  and  vexed  question  of  the  basis  of  Representation. 

I  contemplated,  as  was  my  duty,  with  a  steady  eye,  the  alternative  thus  presented. 
I  saw  on  the  one  hand  the  continuance,  for  an  indefinite  period,  of  that  gross  ine- 
quality of  Representation  which  has  kept  Virginia,  for  thirteen  years,  in  a  state  of 
turmoil  and  confusion:  I  saw  the  hopes  of  my  disfranchised  fellow-citizens  blasted, 
and  their  passions  aroused  and  excited.  I  knew  that  a  large  majority  of  the  people 
of  Virginia  considered  themselves  iniquitously  held  in  a  state  of  political  bondage.  I 
knew  that  threats  had  been  uttered,  within  the  last  eighteen  months ;  not  loud  and  braw- 
ling menaces,  but  threats,  which,  by  the  manner  in  which  they  were  uttered,  manifes- 
ted a  cool,  stern,  deep,  and  determined  purpose — threats,  "  that  if  the  non-freeholders 
did  not  obtain  justice,  in  the  Convention  then  anticipated,  they  would  no  longer  submit 
to  the  laws  and  the  constituted  authorities  :  that  they  would  refuse  to  labour  on  the 
roads,"  (a  rank  and  palpable  grievance) — "  that  they  would  refuse  to  pay  county  le- 
vies and  taxes — and  to  perform  militia  duty;  that  if  the  constituted  authorities  at- 
tempted to  enforce  the  payment  of  the  taxes,  levies,  fines,  and  penalties,  they  would 
resist  force  with  force."  1  knew,  by  the  result  of  a  private  Census,  that  in  the  county 
of  Frederick  alone,  there  were  no  less  than  tioo  thousand  tioo  hundred  of  these  dis- 
franchised citizens — men  of  full  age — and  that  they  bore  to  the  freeholders  the  pro- 
portion of  nearly  nine  to  five. 

I  shuddered  at  the  probable  result  of  a  conflict,  begun  by  a  stubborn  refusal  to  obey 
the  constituted  authorities — proceeding  next  to  an  attempt,  by  those  authorities,  to 
enforce  obedience  by  the  posse  comitatus — then  a  tumultuary  and  successful  resistance, 
ripening  fast  into  organized  insurrection — a  military  array  for  its  suppression — the 
passions  of  the  oppressed  and  disfranchised  classes  at  length  aroused  to  frenzy — and 
then — a  civil  war  with  all  its  concomitant  horrors — houses,  villages,  and  towns  redu- 
ced to  ashes,  and  many  a  stricken  field  strewed  with  the  mangled  corpses  of  our  citi- 
zens, and  drenclied  with  the  best  blood  of  Virginia. 

Believe  me.  Sir,  this  is  no  rhetorical  war;  no  fancy  picture.  I  tell  you,  Sir,  for  I 
knoio  it,  that  so  sure  as  God  is  in  heaven,  the  separation  of  this  Assembly,  without 
redressing,  in  some  measure  at  least,  the  grievances  of  the  non-freeholders,  will  be 
the  signal  for  resistance,  passive  at  first,  to  the  constituted  authorities.  And  he  has 
read  in  vain  the  history  of  past  ages  and  other  times — and  the  history  of  our  own 
revolutionary  struggle  more  especially,  who  does  not  see  that  eyen  passive  resistance 
must  and  will  produce  an  attempt,  on  the  part  of  the  Government,  to  enforce  obedi- 
ence— that  that  attempt  will  arouse  the  passions  of  the  oppressed,  and  that  civil  war 
will  be  the  result. 

This,  Mr.  President,  was  one  of  the  alternatives,  carried  out  to  its  results,  presented 
by  the  refusal  of  a  majority  of  this  Assembly  to  recognize  the  equal  rights  of  the  people 
to  Representation  in  the  Legislative  bodies.  The  other,  as  I  have  said,  was  the  aban- 
donment of  long  cherished  hopes — the  sacrifice  of  a  great  principle — a  principle  coe- 
val with  the  R.epublic  itself,  and  endeared  to  us  by  its  association  with  all  those  early 
feelings  of  enthusiasm  inspired  by  the  story  of  the  Revolution.  But  in  abandoning 
those  hopes,  we  did  but  bow  to  the  supreme  law  of  necessity — in  sacrificing  that  prin- 
ciple we  offered  it  up  on  the  altar  of  the  public  safety.  The  choice  was  painful  but 
not  difficult. 

The  friends  of  reform  in  this  Assembly,  unanimously  determined  that  it  was  due  to 
the  country  to  attempt,  at  least,  to  negotiate  a  compromise  basis  of  Representation. 

The  first  attempt  of  the  sort  was  made  on  the  18th  of  November,  by  the  worthy 
gentleman  from  Goochland,  (Governor  Pleasants.)  As  one  of  the  friends  of  reform, 
and  of  conciliation  too,  he  proposed,  in  effect,  that  preserving  the  equal  Represen- 
tation of  the  people,  in  the  most  numerous  branch  of  the  Legislature,  we  should  ex- 
tend the  number  of  the  Senate  to  thirty-six,  in  deference  to  the  expressed  wishes  of 
our  political  opponents,  and  distribute  the  Representation  in  that  body,  throughout 
the  Commonwealth,  on  the  basis  of  Federal  numbers.  A  manifest  improvement  in 
the  temper  of  the  body  was  produced  by  the  proposition  itself,  but  more  especially  by 
the  manner  in  which  it  was  announced,  and  by  the  patriotic  feelings  by  which  it  was 
evidently  dictated. 

That  pi-oposition  was  still  on  the  table,  undisposed  of,  when,  on  the  25th  of  Novem- 
ber, a  second  plan  of  a  compromise-basis  of  Representation  was  offered  to  the  con- 
sideration of  the  House  by  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  (General  Gordon.)  He 
avowed  it  to  be  his  purpose  to  conciliate  both  parties,  by  throwing  out  of  view,  alto- 
gether, the  vexed  questions  concerning  the  basis  of  Representation,  which  had  agi- 
tated for  weeks,  not  only  this  Assembly,  but  the  whole  people  of  Virginia,  and  which 
had  led  to  no  result,  save  only  the  absolute  certainty,  that  a  majority  of  this  body 
could  not  be  brought  to  unite  in  any  one  principle  of  representation  which  should  be 
the  common  basis  of  both  of  the  Legislative  bodies.    He  recommended  an  arbitrary 


DEBATES    or   THE    C ONTEXTIOIS". 


apportionment  of  representation,  in  which  no  express  reference  shonld  be  had,  either 
to  the  principle  of  the  equal  representation  of  the  white  people,  or  to  the  principle  of 
the  representation  of  Federal  numbers,  or  to  the  principle  of  the  compound  ratio  of 
white  population  and  tasation.  or  to  any  other  of  the  debateable.  and  long  debated 
propositions  which  had  disturbed  the  harmony  of  the  body :  an  apportionment,  in 
which  the  sole  object  should  be  an  equitable  compromise,  so  far  as  any  compromise 
can  be  equitable,  of  the  conflicting  pretensions  of  the  East  and  the  West,  with  a  tacit 
sating  of  the  principles  on  which  those  pretensions  were  founded,  and  a  postpone- 
ment~of  their  discussion  till  some  fhture  period  more  auspicious  to  their  harmonious 
adjustment. 

The  actual  distribution  of  power  contemplated  by  his  proposition,  was.  that  in  a 
House  of  Delegates  of  one  hundred  and  twenty  members.  twenty-six  should  be 
elected  from  that  part  of  Virginia  lying  west  of  the  Alleghany  ISIountains  :  twenty- 
four  from  the  Valley  between  the  Alleghany  and  the  Blue  Ridge  thirty-seven  from 
the  Blue  Ridge  to  the  head  of  Tide- water  ;  and  thirty -three  from  the  country  below 
the  falls  of  the  rivers."  And  that,  in  a  Senate  of  twenty-iour.  there  should  be  ten 
Senators  from  the  connfry  west  of  the  Blue  B.idge  of  Mountains,  and  fourteen  from 
the  country  east  of  those  Mountains.  He  has  since  niodiiied  his  proposition  by 
changinof  the  number  of  members  in  both  bodies,  without  changing  materially  the 
distribution  of  power.  His  proposition,  now  under  consideration  is.  that  the  House 
of  Delegates  shall  consist  of  one  hundred  and  twenty-seven  members,  of  whom 
twentv-nine  shall  be  elected  from  the  district  west  of  the  Alleghany  3Iountains ; 
twenty-iour  from  the  Valley  between  the  Alleghany  and  Blue  Ridge :  forty  from  the 
Blue  Ridge  to  the  head  of  tide-water,  and  thirty -four  thence  below."  And  that  the 
Senate  shall  consist  of  thirty-two  members,  of  whom  there  shall  be  thirteen  west 
of  the  Blue  Ridge  of  AIotLntains,  and  niaeteen  east  of  those  Mountains."" 

I  have  said.  Sir.  that  the  resolution  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  was  offered 
to  the  House  on  the  '2-5th  of  2vovember.  I  had  previously  examined,  in  concert  with 
my  friend  from  Londoun,  (Mr.  Henderson.)  that  of  the  gentieman  from  Goochland, 
by  comparing  its  results  vrith  those  of  the  white  population  basis,  which  we  consi- 
dered the  true  standard  whereby  to  measure,  by  the  extent  of  their  aberration  from  it, 
the  feasibihty  of  all  plans  of  compromise  whatever.  We  now  instituted  a  critical  and 
laborious  examination  of  the  compromise-basis  proposed  by  the  gentieman  from  Albe- 
marle. We  took  next  a  relative  or  comparative  view  of  both  of  Siese  plans,  in  all  their 
bearings  and  eispects — in  their  operation  on  each  section  of  the  State  ,  and  on  the  whole 
State — in  their  principles,  so  far  as  any  principle  was  involved,  and  in  their  practical 
results — ^in  their  probable  effects  on  the  various  and  apparentiy  coDiiicting  interests  of 
the  different  parts  of  the  Commonwealth  at  present,  and  on  the  same  interests,  when 
the  relative  situation  of  those  parts  should  be  changed,  as  it  probably  would  be,  by  the 
unequal  ratios  of  the  increase  of  their  population.  The  result  of  this  esamination 
was  a  dehberate  and  well  considered  preference  for  the  plan  of  the  gentieman  from 
Albemarle,  in  regard  to  the  present  or  actual  distribution  of  political  pouer.  We  con- 
sidered it.  however,  a  great  defect  in  the  plan,  that  it  provided  no  rule  for  future  ap- 
portionment, so  as  to  adapt  itself,  from  time  to  time,  to  the  varying  population  of  the 
different  sections  of  the  Commonwealth ;  the  attempt  to  frame  such  a  rule  havinor  been 
abandoned,  or  rather  never  made  by  its  author,  because  he  considered  that  the  very 
attempt  would  bring  into  instant  conflict  the  discordant  pretensions  of  the  contending 
parties,  which  it  was  the  main  object  of  his  plan  to  keep  in  a  state  of  quiescence.  But! 
even  in  this  respect,  we  considered  his  plan  a  more  acceptable  compromise  to  the  West 
than  that  of  the  gentieman  from  Goochland,  because  we  deemed  it  the  interest  of  that 
comparatively  non-slave-holding  part  of  the  Commonwealth  to  have  no  principle  at  all 
of  re-apportionment  rather  than  a  principle,  which,  in  all  time  to  come,  icould  make 
every  fire  slaves  iri  the  East  equal  to  three  citizens  in  tJie  West  i7i  the  organization  of  the 
Senate,  a  body  i7ivcsted  icitli  poa:er  to  negative  every  act  of  legiMation  proposed  hy  the 
House  of  Delegates,  hoicever  vital  in  importance  to  the  people  of  Western  Virginia.'^ 

Impressed  with  these  views  of  the  character  of  the  two  plans  of  compromise,  and 
deeply  impressed,  too,  with  the  critical,  it  not  dangerous,  state  to  which  the  dissensions 
of  this  Assembly  had  brought  the  best  interests  of  our  country,  we  resolved  to  make 
an  effort,  at  least,  to  foster  that  spirit  of  conciliation  then  so  recently  manifested.  We 
resolved  to  commence  v.ith  an  attempt  to  unite  the  friends  of  reform  in  some  scheme 
of  compromise  to  be  afterwards  tendered  to  our  fellow-citizens  from  the  East  and  the 
South.  We  accordingly  effected  a  meeting,  on  the  27th  of  November,  of  the  fortv- 
nine  members,  or  a  great  portion  of  them,  who  had  voted  for  the  first  resolution  of  the 
Legislative  Committee,  recommending  that  representation  in  the  House  of  Dele- 
gates should  be  apportioned  with  regard  to  white  population  exclusivelv."  The  dis- 
cussions which  took  place  at  that  meeting  disclosed  the  fact  that  a  considerable  num- 
ber, at  least,  of  the  Wester-n  members,  felt  a  decided  preference  tor  the  scheme  of  the 
gentleman  from  Goochland.  The  meeting  resulted  in  the  appointment  of  a  Commit- 
tee, consistiag  of  a  gentieman  from  the  Trans- Alleghany  district  and  myself,  to  con= 


694 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


fer,  on  the  following  day,  with  those  members  of  the  forty-nine  who  represented  the 
districts  lying  East  of  the  Ridge — to  ascertain  whether  tliey  could  unite  in  any  scheme 
of  compromise  which  would  be  acceptable  to  the  Western  members,  and  to  report  the 
result  to  a  second  meeting  of  the  forty-nine  members,  to  be  held  on  the  following 
evening.  The  Committee  which  I  have  mentioned  did  accordingly  confer,  in  the 
course  of  the  following  day,  with  all  the  members  before  alluded  to,  East  of  the  Ridge, 
except  the  venerable  Ex-JPresident  of  this  body,  who  had  not  attended  the  meeting  of 
the  evening  before.  The  result  was,  that  the  members  of  the  forty-nine  residing  East 
of  the  Ridge,  concurred  in  recommending  to  their  political  friends  of  the  West,  a  com- 
promise scheme  of  representation  exactly  according  in  the  actual  distribution  of  pov^er 
with  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle.  The  scheme  proposed  by  those  gentle- 
men was,  a  House  of  Delegates  of  one  hundred  and  twenty  members,  and  a  Senate 
of  thirty-six :  the  members  of  the  House  of  Delegates  to  be  distributed,  fifty  to  the 
West  and  seventy  to  the  East;  those  of  the  Senate,  fifteen  to  the  West  and  twenty-one 
to  the  East :  "  this  apportionment  of  representation  to  remain  unchanged  till  the  year 
1841,  when,  and  at  the  expiration  of  every  ten  years  thereafter,  a  re-apportionment  of 
representation  maybe  made  by  law  in  regard  to  the  House  of  Delegates."    The  gen- 

\-  tlemen  in  question  also  desired  the  Committee  to  report  that  "  they  were  not  to  be 

considered  as  peremptorily  pledged,  in  any  and  all  events,  to  vote  for  the  final  adop- 
tion of  the  scheme  recommended,  but  merely  as  offering  a  plan,  which,  as  then  ad- 
vised, they  were  determined  to  support,  should  it  prove  acceptable  to  their  political 
friends  of  the  West." 

The  report  was  made  to  a  second  meeting  of  the  forty-nine,  or  a  considerable  part 
of  them,  held  on  the  evening  of  the  28th.  At  that  meeting  the  gentleman  from  Albe- 
marle attended,  and  explained  his  scheme  of  representation.  But  a  still  more  decided 
preference  was  by  this  time  manifested  for  the  scheme  originally  proposed  by  the 
gentleman  from  Goochland,  to  wit,  the  zvhtte  basis,  as  it  is  called,  in  the  House  of  De- 
legates, and  Federal  numbers  in  the  Senate  :  So  decided  a  preference,  that,  when  the 
opinions  of  all  the  gentlemen  were  ascertained  seriatim,  it  was  found  that  the  scheme 
of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  had  no  advocates  except  himself,  my  friend  from 
Loudoun,  and  myself  That  gentleman  and  myself  still  retained,  and  distinctly  ex- 
pressed, our  decided  preference  for  the  scheme  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle:  but 
we  frankly  stated  to  our  political  friends,  that,  as  the  great  object  in  view  was  a  har- 
monious co-operation  of  all  the  friends  of  reform  in  one  plan  of  compromise,  in  order 
that  it  might,  on  that  account,  attract  a  more  respectful  consideration  when  ofJered  to 
our  fellow-citizens  in  the  Convention  from  the  East  and  the  South,  and  as  we  had  no 
.insuperable  objection  to  the  plan  in  which  they  had  thus  united,  we  would,  in  defer- 
ence to  their  opinions,  and  to  promote  the  great  cause  of  Constitutional  reform,  waive 
43ur  opinions,  and  concur  with  them  in  supporting  their  favorite  plan,  to  the  extent  of 
noting  for  it,  and  giving  it  a  fair  trial  in  the  Convention.  The  gentleman  from  Albe- 
marle did  not  join  in  this  promise — a  promise  which  we  had  afterwards  cause  to  regret. 

.  For,  by  this  gratuitous  promise,  made  in  the  spirit  of  conciliation,  and  with  the  sole 

purpose  of  promoting  the  great  object  we  had  so  much  at  heart,  we  alone  were  pledged, 
or  so  considered  ourselves,  in  the  first  instance  at  least,  to  vote  against  the  scheme 
we  preferred,  and  in  favor  of  that  which  we  thought  the  worst  of  the  two,  while  it  was 
distinctly  understood  that  the  other  members  were  not  pledged  to  adhere  to  the  opi- 
nions then  entertained  and  expressed.  It  is  proper.  Sir,  that  I  should  here  remark, 
that  the  meetings  in  question  were  held  with  open  doors,  and  that  there  were  specta- 
tors present  at  one  or  both  of  them.  I  will  add,  that  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle, 
who  had  failed  in  his  attempt  to  make  his  plan  acceptable  to  the  meeting,  was  under 
,  no  sort  of  pledge,  express  or  implied,  to  conceal  the  fact  that  the  gentleman  from 
Loudoun  and  myself  preferred  his  plan  to  that  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Gooch- 
land. I  have  not  the  smallest  doubt  that  he  mentioned  the  fact,  as  he  had  a  right  to 
do,  to  all  with  whom  he  conversed  on  the  subject.  And  in  fact.  Sir.  our  opinion,  from 
the  publicity  of  the  meetings,  and  the  circumstance  I  have  just  mentioned,  was  as  no- 
torious in  this  body,  from  the  very  time  of  those  meetings,  in  the  last  week  in  Novem- 
ber, as  if  it  had  been  published  in  the  newspapers  of  Richmond.  This  fact  1  state, 
without  the  hazard  of  contradiction.  And  I  state  it.  Sir,  with  reference  to  a  most  ex- 
traordinary and  most  groundless  opinion,  which  some  of  the  gentlemen  of  our  party 
have  ventured  to  express,  that  their  strenuous  efforts  to  carry  their  favorite  plan  of 
representation  had  been  frustrated  by  our  indiscretion  in  letting  it  be  understood  by 
the  gentlemen  of  the  opposite  party,  that  though  we  meant  to  vote  for  that  plan,  and 
give  it  a  fair  trial,  we  would  eventually  vote  for  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle, 
if  the  Western  plan  should  be  defeated.  Sir,  the  idea  that  we  had  it  in  our  power  to 
conceal  our  opinion,  after  it  had  been  so  openly  expressed  before  the  adoption  of  the 
Western  plan  as  a  party-measure,  is  utterly  ridiculous,  and  the  imputation  thrown  on 
us  is  gratuitous  and  unfounded. 

Moreover,  Sir,  I  will  take  leave  to  say,  that  however  wise  and  profound  the  scheme 
of  attracting  to  a  great  political  measure  the  support  of  its  enemies,  Avho  are  the  ma- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


695 


joritv.  by  the  obstinate  adherence  to  it  of  its  friends,  who  are  the  minority — hp-vrever 
justifiable  it  mav  seem  to  veteran  politicians  to  hold  out  a  false  and  delusive  impres- 
sion, in  a  conthct  like  this,  which  is  not  a  conflict  of  principle,  but  a  question  of  pre- 
ference between  tico  plans,  both  of  them  at  war  with  true  principles,  that  they  mean 
to  adhere  to  their  own  favorite  scheme,  even  to  the  point  of  breaking  up  the  Conven- 
tion or  rendering  it  wholly  abortive — however  justifiable  it  may  se-em  to  them  to  sport 
with  the  patriotic  fears  of  their  opponents,  and  turn  their  very  virtues  against  them — 
I,  for  one.  have  not  been  accustomed  to  such  projects,  and  practices,  have  had  no  part 
in  them,  emd  icill  have  none.  I  vrill  not  consent  to  practice  against  my  countrymen 
and  fellow-citizens,  if  they  are  my  political  opponents,  the  tricks  and  devices  of  hos- 
tile diplomacy.  And  I  will  add,  before  I  dismiss  this  unpleasant  subject,  that  the 
gentleman  from  Loudoun  and  myself  could  not,  even  if  we  had  been  inclined,  from 
the  circumstances  of  the  case,  have  aided  in  the  prosecution  of  such  schemes  and 
devices. 

But  to  return  to  the  promise  given  by  that  gentleman  and  myself  to  vote  for  the 
compromise-basis  proposed  by  the  member  from  Goochland,  and  adopted  by  the  Wes- 
tern members.  On  the  30th  of  ^Vovember,!  offered  the  plan  in  question  to  the  consi- 
deration of  the  Convention,  as  a  plan  adopted  by  the  Western  members,  in  the  spirit  of 
compromise,  and  in  the  hope  that  it  icoidd  be  acceptable  to  the  East.  It  had  not  that  good 
fortune.  My  friend  from  Loudoun  and  myself  considered  its  fate  as  sealed  on  the  5th 
of  December,  bij  tico  successive  votes.  First,  by  a  vote  of  50  to  45,  adopting  the  plan 
of  the  gentleman  Irom  Albemarle,  providing  a  present,  apportionment  of  representation ; 
the  West  em  plan  then  lying  on  the  table,  and  fully  understood.  Second,  and  more  deci- 
sively, if  possible,  bv  a  vote  of  50  to  45,  rejecting  a  resolution  offered  by  the  gentleman 
from  Brooke,  pir.  Doddridge.)  by  which  it  was  provided  that  representation  should 
hereafter  be  apportioned  on  the  Western  plan,  to  wit :  in  the  House  of  Delegates  on  the 
basis  of  white  population,  and  in  the  Senate  on  the  basis  of  Federal  numbers.  This 
wouid  seem  to  have  been  decisive  enough.  And  by  voting  as  we  did,  with  the  mi- 
nority, on  both  of  these  occasions,  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun  and  myself,  had  fully 
performed,  and  had  a  right  to  consider  ourselves  released  from,  our  promise  to  give 
the  Western  plan,  v%-hich  we  disapproved,  a  fair  trial  in  this  body.  Moreover,  after 
those  votes  it  ceased  to  be  a  plan  of  compromise,  and  as  a  plan  of  compromise  alone 
had  we  promised  it  our  support.  But  operated  on  by  the  solicitations  of  our  political 
friends,  who  were  now  heartily  embarked  in  it  as  a  party-measure,  and  who  did  not 
consider  the  votes  I  have  just  mentioned  as  decisive,  we  reluctantly  consented  to  o-ive 
it  another  trial,  expressly  announcing  our  determination  to  abandon  it  and  vote  for 
■what  we  considered  the  preferable  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  when  the 
former  should  be  again  rejected. 

In  compliance  with  that  promise  we  again  voted  on  yesterday,  against  the  plan  of 
the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  when  it  was  perfectly  well  understood  that  the  vote 
was  a  test  of  the  relative  strength  of  his  plan  and  that  of  the  Western  members.  His 
plan  was  again  sustained  by  a  vote  of  50  to  46,  and  the  Chair  was  understood  to  de- 
cide, expressly,  that  by  that  vote  the  resolution  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  was 
finally  adopted,  and  that  tlie  resolution  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  proposing 
a  new  plan  of  representation,  offered  immediately  after,  could  not  be  considered,  and 
that  it  was  not  in  order  to  offer  it  till  the  House  had  first  agreed  to  re-consider  the  re- 
solution then  recently  adopted.  The  resolution  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield 
was  then  laid  on  the  table,  and  the  House  adjourned. 

The  gentleman  from  Loudoun  and  myself  having  thus  thrice  voted  for  the  Western 
plan,  and  having  seen  it  thrice  defeated,  and  each  time  by  the  same  vote  of  50  mem- 
bers, considered  it  as  finally  disposed  of.  and  did  not  imaoine  that  its  warmest  friends 
indulged  the  hope  of  resuscitating  it,  or  meant  again  to  "try  it.  We  considered  our- 
selves, therefore,  fully  at  liberty  to  support  tlae  plan  v.-hich  we  original!}-  preferred, 
and  still  continued  to  prefer,  to  that  which  had  just  been  lost.  We  considered  the 
plan  alluded  to,  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  as  imperilled  by  the  new  pro- 
position of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  which  we  feared  would"^be  broua-ht  on 
and  supported  by  an  Eastern  majority,  by  means  of  a  successful  motion  to  re-consider 
the  plan  adopted  yesterday.  We  had  procured  a  manuscript  copy  of  this  new  plan, 
after  the  rising  of  the  House,  and  had  critically  examined  it.  We  considered  it  utterly 
inadmissible — utterly-  destructive  of  the  rights  and  interests  of  the  West — and  one 
which  a  majority  of  the  people  of  Virginia  would  inevitably  reject.  Knowino-  the 
high  standing  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  with  his  party,  we  entertain ecf  seri- 
ous apprehensions  that  it  would  unite  the  voices  of  a  majority  of  this  body.  To  pre- 
vent a  result  so  calamitous  to  Virginia,  so  destructive  of  all  our  hopes,  we  stated  our 
views  to  tlie  worthy  member  from  Richmond,  (3Ir.  Xeale.)  whom  we  knew  to  be  sin- 
cerely desirous  to  effect  a  fair  and  honorable  compromise — told  hira  how  odious  the 
plan  in  question  would  be  to  the  people  of  the  West,  and  earnestlv  requested  him  to 
have  it  withdrawn,  if  possible,  stating  our  belief  that  if  it  were  withdra^^-n,  man3'  of 
our  Western  friends,  having  now  finally  lost  their  favorite  measure,  would  unite  with 


696 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


the  East  in  sustaining  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  which  we  told  him, 
as  indeed  he  knew  before,  we  preferred,  ourselves,  to  the  Western  plan  which  had 
been  lost. 

He  promised  to  comply  with  our  request,  and  he  performed  his  promise;  but  was 
Xinable,  it  seems,  to  prevail  on  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  to  withdraw  his  reso- 
lution. That  resolution  has  been  this  day  rejected,  to  my  no  small  satisfaction,  by  a 
decisive  majority. 

The  friends  of  the  Western  plan,  hoping  against  hope,  have  to-day  subjected  it  to 
another  test,  by  moving  it  in  the  shape  of  an  amendment  to  the  plan  of  the  gentleman 
from  Albemarle.  The  gentleman  from  Loudoun  and  myself,  governed  more  by  a 
punctilio  of  honour,  than  by  any  obligation  to  perform  again  the  promise,  already 
thrice  fulfilled,  twice  on  the  5th  of  December,  and  once  yesterday,  have  again  on  this 
day  fulfilled,  for  the  last  time,  the  gratuitous  and  ill-judged  promise  which  we  gave 
to  the  friends  of  that  measure,  because  they  were  also  our  political  friends.  With 
our  assistance  it  has  at  length  obtained  the  votes  of  half  the  body,  and  has  just  been 
rejected  by  an  equal  division  of  the  House.  1  trust  that  it  is  at  last  disposed  of.  I  feel 
that  I  have  pushed  my  fidelity  to  a  gratuitous  promise  to  an  extreme,  and  I  rejoice 
that  I  am  released  from  it.  1  have  paid  the  debt  which  I  owed  to  my  party,  I  pro- 
ceed to  pay  that  which  I  owe  to  my  country.  The  resolution  of  the  gentleman  from 
Albemarle  which  I  thought  had  heen  finally  adopted  by  the  vote  of  yesterday,  is  now 
on  its  final  passage. 

I  have  said  that  my  friend  from  Loudoun  and  myself  prefer  that  scheme  to  the 
compromise  plan  of  representation  which  we  have  thus  far  supported.  I  have  sug- 
gested, already,  one  of  our  reasons  for  that  preference.  I  proceed  to  state  other  rea- 
sons which  have  led  us  to  this  conclusion. 

Before  I  do  so,  however,  I  must  premise  that  the  critical  investigations  which  I 
have  been  compelled,  by  a  sense  of  duty  to  make,  respecting  the  relative  population 
in  182.9,  of  the  four  great  sections  into  which  the  State  is  divided,  have  led  me  to  the 
conclusion  that  the  conjectural  statement  made  by  the  Auditor  is  far  from  being  accu- 
rate. Indeed,  he  himself  states,  that  "  the  white  and  slave  tythables  have  been  in 
some  instances  supplied  by  conjecture,  the  returns  being  imperfect,  or  altogether 
wanting."  And  again,  that  there  -are  so  many  probable  errors  in  the  data  upon 
w^hich  the  population  of  1829  is  estimated,  that  he  entertains  considerable  doubt  of 
its  correctness."  A  conclusive  proof  with  me,  if  further  proof  were  wanted  of  the 
inaccuracy  of  his  estimate,  is,  that  he  reports  the  county  of  Loudoun,  one  of  the  most 
prosperous  in  the  State,  as  containing  some  four  thousand  fewer  people  in  1829  than 
it  contained  in  1820.  Other  results  might  be  mentioned,  equally  erroneous;  but  it  is 
superfluous. 

Piejecting  his  estimate,  then,  as  clearly  erroneous,  I  made  an  estimate,  for  myself, 
of  the  population  of  the  four  great  divisions  of  the  Commonwealth,  by  comparing  the 
Census  of  1810  with  that  of  1820 ;  and  having  thus  ascertained  the  actual  increase  of 
population  in  each  division,  between  those  periods,  I  assumed  that  they  had  respec- 
tively continued  to  increase  at  the  same  rate  from  1820  to  1829.  Having  calculated 
the  increase  in  each  division  in  this  mode,  which  I  venture  to  assert  presents  a  nearer 
approximation  to  the  truth  than  any  other  which  can  be  resorted  to,  short  of  an  actual 
Census,  I  arrived  at  these  results  : 

The  Auditor  estimates  the  actual  white  population  of  the  State  to  be  682,261. 
"   By  my  calculation  it  is  but  671,017. 

This  variance  would  not  be  very  material  as  to  the  results  we  have  in  view,  if  the 
excess  were  distributed  among  the  four  divisions  with  any  thing  like  equality.  But 
it  so  happens,  that  of  the  whole  excess,  amounting  to  eleven  thousand  two  hundred 
and  forty-four,  he  has  given  to  the  trans- Alleghany  district  the  benefit  of  no  less  than 
ten  thousand  six  hundred  and  seventy-six.  The  error  would,  therefore,  have  a  very 
injurious  effect  on  the  Valley  country  in  the  distribution  of  representation  either  ac- 
cording to  Federal  numbers  or  white  population.  The  following  statement  presents  a 
relative  view  of  the  two  estimates,  in  regard  to  the  white  population  of  the  country 
west  of  the  Ridge. 

The  trans- Alleg-hany  country  contains,  according  to  the  Auditor's  estimate,  181,384 


The  same  country  by  my  estimate,  170,708 

Difference,  as  before  stated,  10,676 

The  Valley  country  contains,  by  the  Auditor's  estimate,  138,132 

The  same  country  contains,  by  my  estimate,  137,041 

Difference,  only,  1,091 

The  whole  country  west  of  the  Ridge  contains,  by  the  Auditor's  estimate,  319,516 

The  same  country  contains,  by  my  estimate,  but  307,749 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


697 


I  will  further  remark,  that  in  making  to  the  trans- Alleghany  country  the  conces- 
sion that  it  has  increased  in  population,  during  the  last  nine  years,  as  fast  as  it  in- 
creased between  ISIO  and  1620,  1  have  done  it  ample  justice,  and  probably  more  than 
justice. 

It  is  a  new  country;  and,  like  all  new  countries,  it  is  increasing  fast  in  population. 
But  like  all  new  countries,  the  nearer  it  approaches  to  a  full  population,  the  more 
slowly  does  it  increase.  On  this  subject  we  are  not  left  to  conjecture.  For  the  gen- 
tleman from  Augusta.  (Mr.  Johnson.)  in  the  able  argument  which  he  delivered,  a  few 
weeks  ago,  in  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  on  the  subject  of  the  apportionment  of 
representation,  presented  to  us  the  actual  rate  of  the  increase  of  population,  in  the  dis- 
trict in  question,  in  three  periods  of  ten  years  each.  On  his  calculation,  the  fullest 
reliance  may  be  placed.  And  he  told  us,  that  by  comparing  the  Censuses  of  1790, 
1800,  1810,  and  1820,  he  had  arrived  at  the  following  results  :  The  population  of  the 
trans- Alleghany  country  increased, 

Between  1790  and  1800,       83^  per  cent. 

Between  1800  and  1810,       47   per  cent. 

Betv/een  1810  and  J  8.20,  27^  per  cent. 
Thus  it  appears  that  during  those  three  periods,  of  ten  years  each,  the  population  of 
that  country  increased  in  a  rapidly  decreasing  ratio.  If  the  ratio  of  increase  has  con- 
tinued to  sink  in  the  same  proportion,  the  actual  increase  of  the  last  nine  vears  is 
probably  not  more  than  fifteen  per  cent.  I  say  probably,  because  I  have  not  taken  the 
trouble  of  making  the  calculation.  But  the  Auditor  estimates  the  increase,  I  think 
ai,  about  forty  per  cent.  I  have  said  enough,  I  presume  to  show,  that  in  my  estimate 
of  the  population  of  the  trans-Alleghany  district,  I  have  done  it  ample  justice,  if  not 
more  than  justice. 

Taking  my  estimate,  then,  of  the  relative  population  of  the  four  great  districts  as 
correct,  (for  I  have  made  an  estimate  of  ali.  though  I  have  not  stated  the  precise 
number  of  the  two  Eastern  districts.)  and  applying  to  the  actual  popjalation,  in  1829, 
so  ascertained,  the  two  plans  of  apportioning  representation  between  which  I  am  in- 
stituting a  comparison,  we  have  the  following  results  in  a  House  of  Delegates  of  one 
hundred  and  twenty-seven,  and  a  Senate  of  thirty-two,  the  numbers  assumed  in  the 
plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle. 

Western  Plan. 

According  to  tlie  Western  Plan,  to  wit:  the  white  basis  in  the  House  of  Delegates, 
and  the  Federal  basis  (or  all  the  free  persons  and  three-fifths  of  the  slaves)  in  the 
Senate. 

The  country  west  of  the  Ridge  is  entitled,  in  the  House  of  Delegates  to  members, 


58.25  or  58 

The  country  east  of  the  Ridge  to  members,  68.75  or  69 

Eastern  majority,  11 

The  country  west  of  the  Ridge  is  entitled,  in  the  Senate  to  members  11.19  or  11 

The  country  east  of  the  Ridge  to  members  20.81  or  21 

Eastern  majority,  10 

Plan  of  the  member  from  Mbemarle. 


According  to  the  plan  of  the  member  from  Albemarle,  (which  proposes,  as  I  have 


said,  an  arbitrary  distribution  of  representation)  in  the 

House  of  Delegates, 

The  country  west  of  the  Alleghanj'  is  allowed,  members  29 

The  Valley  country  is  allowed,  members  24 

The  whole  country  west  of  the  Bidge,  53 

The  country  east  of  the  Ridge,  74 

Eastern  majority,  21 

In  the  Senate, 

The  country  west  of  the  Ridge  is  allowed  members  13 

The  country  east  of  the  Ridge,  members  19 

Eastern  majority,  6 

In  a  Senate  of  thirty-two,  distributed  according  to  2chite  pojn'Jaiion  alone, 

The  country  west  of  the  Ridge  would  be  entitled  to  members  14|  or  15 

The  country  east  of  the  Ridge  to  members  17J  or  17 

88 


698 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


It  seems,  then,  that  by  the  Western  Plan  the  Eastern  majority  in  the  House  of  Dele- 
gates is  ten  members,  or  about  one-thirteenth  of  the  whole  body,  less  than  by  the  plan 
of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle.  And  that  by  the  same  Western  Plan  the  Eastern 
majority  in  the  Senate  is  four  members,  or  one-eighth  of  the  wliole  body,  greater  than 
by  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle.  In  other  words,  the  West  gains  more 
in  the  Senate,  by  the  plan  of  tiie  member  from  Albemarle,  compared  with  the  Western 
Plan,  than  it  loses  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  by  *a  comparison  of  the  same  plans.  The 
plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  therefore,  confers  more  poiver  on  the  West  than 
the  plan  tohich  is  so  strangely  jn-eferred  by  the  Western  members.  I  apprehend  that  this 
statement  alone  would  justify  the  preference  which  I,  as  a  Western  member,  bound 
by  duty  and  led  by  inclination  to  obtain  as  much  power  as  I  can  for  my  constituents, 
within  the  limits  of  justice,  entertain  for  the  plan  of  the  member  from  Albemarle. 
The  weight  allowed  to  the  West,  by  his  plan,  in  the  Senate,  is  only  one  and  two- 
thirds,  or  two  members  less  than  that  to  which  it  is  entitled  on  the  true,  but  unat- 
tainable basis  of  white  population.  According  to  the  Western  Plan,  to  carry  any  bill 
in  the  Senate,  no  matter  how  vitally  important  to  Western  interests,  the  West  must 
invoke  the  aid  of  six  out  of  the  twentj^-one  Eastern  Senators.  A  matter  1  should 
apprehend  in  some  cases,  of  no  easy  attainment.  Whereas,  according  to  the  other 
plan,  a  Western  measure  can  be  carried  in  the  Senate,  by  the  aid  oi  four  Eastern 
Senators  only — a  thing,  I  conceive,  always  attainable,  having  reference  to  obvious 
circumstances,  provided  the  measure  be  jast  in  itself.  The  obvious  consideration, 
that  the  Senate  will  be  invested  witli  the  power  to  negative  all  hills  ^vhatever  sent  to  it 
by  the  House  of  Delegates,  lies  on  the  surface  of  the  subject,  has  been  already  ad- 
verted to,  and  need  not  be  further  insisted  on. 

Entertaining  these  views  of  the  subject,  I  have  been  at  a  loss  to  conceive  the 
grounds  of  that  strong  and  decided  preference  manifested  by  the  Western  members 
for  the  plan  of  representation  which  they  have  supported.  1  have  heard  but  one  rea- 
son in  favour  of  it,  which  I  think  even  a  feasible  one.  It  is,  that  at  some  future  and 
far  distant  day,  (which  they  believe,  however,  to  be  not  so  distant,)  the  comparatively 
rapid  increase  of  population  west  of  the  mountains  will  counteract  the  inequality  in 
the  Senate  which  they  are  willing  to  submit  to  at  present.  What  changes  may  be 
wrought  by  time  in  the  relative  population  of  the  Eastern  and  Western  country,  no 
man  can  tell.  But  I,  for  one,  am  more  than  sceptical  in  regard  to  their  sanguine  cal- 
culations of  the  rapid  and  sastained  increase  of  Western  population.  The  rapid  de- 
dine  of  the  ratio  of  i?icrease  West  of  the  Alleghany  Mountains,  and  the  natural  and 
permanent  causes  of  that  decline,  have  been  already  adverted  to.  The  increase  in 
the  Valley  daring  the  last  twenty  years,  has  been  exceedingly  small,  and  I  see  no 
reason  to  expect  any  favourable  change,  which  does  not  apply  with  equal  force  to  a 
large  portion  of  the  country  east  of  the  Ridge.  The  mistake  in  the  Auditor's  esti- 
mate, already  noticed,  has  given  a  temporary  countenance  to  these  sanguine  calcula- 
tions ;  but  this  illusion  will  be  dispelled  by  the  approaching  Census.  1  may  be  mis- 
taken in  these  views,  but  they  are  sustained  by  the  able  argument  of  the  gentleman 
from  Augusta,  to  which  I  have  already  adverted.  The  number  and  extent  of  sterile 
and  inarable  mountains  in  the  West,  and  the  comparatively  unbroken  surface  of  the 
Eastern  country,  are  elements  in  any  sound  calculation  of  the  future  population  of 
the  two  regions,  too  obvious  for  comment. 

On  the  whole,  Sir,  I  think  it  may  be  reasonably  doubted,  whether  under  the  disad- 
vantage of  the  gross  inequality  in  the  Senate,  created  by  the  Federal  numbers,  the 
West  would  ever  attain  to  a  majority  in  that  Legislative  body.  The  present  loss  is 
certain,  in  the  comparison  of  the  two  plans  ;  the  future  gain  is  at  best  doubtful.  On 
the  score  of  the  relative  pojccr  conferred  on  the  West,  present  and  future,  by  the  two 
plans  under  consideration,  I  have  nothing  further  to  add. 

But  another  consideration,  of  an  entirely  different  nature,  has  operated  on  my  mind 
with  no  small  force,  in  the  comparison  which  I  have  instituted  between  the  plans  in 
question.  I  entered  this  Assembly  with  a  political  creed  which  all  the  eloquence  of 
our  able  opponents  has  not  shaken,  and  which  will  continue  to  be  my  creed  so  long 
as  life  and  consciousness  remain.  It  is,  that  frecyncn  are  the  sole  elements  out  of 
which  a  republic  should  be  formed,  and  that  equality  is  the  only  just  rule  for  the  dis- 
tribution of  power  among  them.  And  while  I  bow  to  the  necessity  which  places  the 
enforcement  of  this  creed,  in  the  Commonwealth  of  Virginia,  beyond  the  power  of 
the  friends  of  reform,  I  would  at  least  avoid  the  express  recognition  of  a  principle  of 
representation  diametrically  opposite  to  that  which  I  am  compelled  to  give  up  as  un- 
attainable. I  cannot  Iring  myself  to  relish  a  rule  of  apportionment,  which  counts 
slaves  in  the  East  against  freemen  in  the  West.  I  might  submit  to  it,  too,  as  a  mat- 
ter of  cruel  necessity,  but  I  feel  an  inexpressible  repugnance  to  the  voluntary,  and 
unforced  recognition  of  a  principle  so  odious  to  my  feehngs,  so  repugnant  to  all  my 
notions  of  Government.  The  more  I  reflect  on  it,  Sir,  the  more  odious  to  me  does 
this  principle  of  negro  representation  seem. 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


699 


There  is  slill  another  view.  Mr.  President,  wliich  I  have  taken  of  the  comparative 
merits  of  these  two  plans  of  the  basis  of  Representation,  and  tiie  apportionment  of 
power.  The  interests  and  the  feelings  of  the  East  and  West  are  surely  discordant 
enough  already,  without  adventitious  aid.  Why.  then,  should  we  stek  to  render  the 
Government  more  discordant  than  it  must  inevitably  be,  under  the  most  favourable 
circumstances,  by  infusing  fresh  elements  of  discord  into  the  very  Constitution  to 
which  it  is  to  owe  its  birth  ?  Why  create  an  Eastern  Senate  and  a  Western  House  of 
Delegates,  for  such,  to  a  considerable  extent,  would  be  the  effect  of  one  of  the  plans 
under  consideration — to  wage  a  perpetual  war — to  disturb  the  peace  of  the  Common- 
wealth and  sacrihce  its  best  interests  by  their  inevitable  dissentions :  I  cannot  per- 
suade myself  to  think,  that  such  a  constitution  of  the  Legislative  bodies  comports 
with  sound  and  statesman-hke  views  of  the  true  interests  of  Virginia. 

I  have  thus  endeavoured,  Sir,  to  explain  the  views  of  policy  and  principle  which 
have  separated  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun  and  myself  from  the  crreat  body  of  our 
pohtical  friends,  witb  whom  it  is  oar  happiness  still  to  agree,  on  every  other  important 
subject  whicn  has  come  under  the  review  of  this  honourable  bod}-.  Tou  may  well 
conceive,  that  it  has  been  to  us  a  subject  of  no  small  regret  to  sever  from  our  Iriends 
on  a  subject  of  so  grave  and  important  a  nature.  2so  man,  we  persuade  ourselves, 
can  be  so  imjust  as  to  beheve  that,  in  taking  this  bold  and  highly  responsible  step, 
we  have  been  actuated  by  any  other  consideration  than  a  deep  sense  of  the  duty 
which  we  owe  to  our  constituents  and  to  our  country. 

Sir,  we  know  the  consequences  of  taking  this  high,  and,  in  the  view  of  those  who 
differ  with  us,  presumptuous  ground — and  1  say  proudly,  we  are  ready  to  meet  them. 
We  know  the  odium  which  attaches,  in  a  time,  like  this,  of  great  party  excitement, 
to  any  deviation  by  the  member  of  a  party,  from  the  measures  of  a  party.  Proudly 
conscious  of  the  rectitude  of  our  motives,  of  our  undeviatinor  fidehty  to  the  cause  of 
popular  rights,  we  look  with  serenity  on  the  approach  of  that  storm  of  popular  delu- 
sion, perhaps  even  now  brewmg  over  our  heads. 

I  speak  not.  Sir,  of  those  generous  constituents  who  invested  me  with  the  dignified 
station  which  I  have  sought  worthily  to  fill.  From  them  I  fear  no  wrong.  They  sent 
me  thither  to  protect  their  interests  and  to  assert  their  rights,  not  in  the  mode  that 
should  be  dictated  to  me  by  others,  but  accordincr  to  the  best  hghts  that  God  has  given 
me — the  dictates  of  my  conscience  and  my  reason.  If  they  shall  be  of  opinion  that 
I  have  erred  in  tliis  matter,  they  will  consider  it  an  error  of  judgment,  and  not  the 
result  of  unworthy  or  interested"  motives.  Sir,  I  say  it  with  honest  pride — they  know 
me  well.  They  will  know  that  I  have  acted  honestly,  and  perhaps  I  may  be  able  to 
convince  them  that  I  have  acted  icisely. 

Mr.  Henderson  rose  and  stated,  that  if  he  had  rightly  apprehended  the  Chair,  it  was 
not  in  order  farther  to  debate  the  question  before  the  House:  upon  which  the  Presi- 
dent announced  that  it  was  in  order. 

]Mr.  H.  continued  :  I  do  not  rise.  Sir,  at  this  hour,  to  enter  into  the  debate,  but  simply 
to  declare,  and,  Mr.  President,  it  is  unnecessary  to  make  the  declaration,  that  the  nar- 
rative of  my  friend  firom  Frederick  is  strictly  accurate ;  and  that  I  agree  with  him, 
most  cordicdly,  in  every  opinion  that  he  has  advanced.  Yes,  Sir,  I  unhesitatingly 
pronounce  that  tiie  plan  presented  by  the  crentleman  from  Albemarle,  is  better  than 
the  project  of  a  House  of  Delegates  on  the  v%"hite  basis,  with  this  Federal  Senate,  not 
for  my  immediate  constituents  "only,  but  for  the  whole  Commonwealth.  It  is  purer 
in  principle,  and  in  its  effects  it  will  prove  more  salutary.  This  opinion.  Sir,  is  not 
lightly  or  hastily  formed  ;.  it  is  the  fruit  of  much  study,  of  long  continued,  anxious,  and 
laborious  investigation.  I  confidently  hope  to  be  able  to  convince  my  immediate  con- 
stituents that  my  judgment  is  correct ;  at  least  that  I  am  animated  by  motives  worthy 
of  the  station  with  which  they  have  honored  me.  If  I  fail  in  both,  still,  Sir,  I  feel 
that  I  am  a  man ;  I  feel  the  prc;id  consciousness  tliat  I  never  sought  place,  with  the 
fiillest  conviction  that  I  have  no  earthly  claim  to  distinction.  I  am  well  aware  tliat 
independence  is  the  fruit  of  the  sweat  of  the  brow  ;  or,  Sir,  if  you  will  have  it  so,  of 
the  toil  of  the  brain.  All  that  an  honest  man  can  claim  is  an  open  theatre  for  Ms  ex- 
ertions. Gentlemen  have  talked  here  of  having  planted  their  standards  ;  and  amongst 
them  an  honorable  friend  of  mine,  turning  to  Mr.  Doddridge,  my  superior  in  years, 
and  more,  much  more,  my  superior  in  intellectual  endowments.  !\Jr.  President,  these 
declarations  penetrate  me  with  profound  regret.  I  boldly  declare,  Sir,  in  the  face  of 
this  body,  and  of  the  ancient  Commonwealth  which  it  represents,  that  1  will  foUow  no 
sectional  standard :  but,  that  wherever  the  banner  of  Virginia  floats,  there,  and  tliere 
only  will  I  be  found. 

Sir.  we  have  been  told  of  the  "  justum  et  tenacem  propositi  virum  and  that  he  fears 
not  the    ardor  civium  prara  Jubentium.'' 

This  is  the  test  to  which  I  am  wiihng  to  be  brought.  I,  in  common  with  my  friend 
from  Frederick,  held  with  the  respectable  gentleman  from  Richmond  county,  the  con- 
versation which  he  has  detailed.  The  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  was 
exliibited  to  us.    I  felt  for  it  aversion,  I  had  almost  said  abhorrence.    The  project  for 


700 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


the  white  basis  in  the  House  of  Dele2;ates,  and  three-fifths  of  the  slaves,  mixed,  with  it, 
for  the  Senate,  liad  distinctly  and  repeatedly  failed  in  Committee  of  the  Whole,  and 
in  the  Convention.  A  g-entleman  with  whom  I  had  acted  politically  here,  had  de- 
clared in  his  place,  that  loc  icere  beaten.  In  these  circumstances,  we  felt  it  our  duty 
to  uro-e  the  gentleman  from  Richmond  county,  not  to  sustain  the  proposition  of  the 
member  irom  Chesterfield,  assuring  him,  that  in  our  opinion,  many  members  from  the 
Valley,  and  a  portion  of  the  Trans-Alleghany  delegation,  would  vote  for  the  scheme 
of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle.  This  was  conjectural  on  our  part.  Seeing  that ,  in 
our  humble  estimate,  the  public  weal  required  it,  we  had  just  ground  for  the  impression-. 
We  hoped  that  gentlemen  would  take  this  course  rather  than  peril  the  peace,  the  hap- 
piness, the  gior/ of  the  State  by  separation  or  civil  war.  If  in  this  we  err,  it  is  a  delu- 
sion of  the  understanding.  The  wise  and  distinguished  gentleman  from  Augusta, 
(Mr.  Johnson,)  announced  in  his  place,  that  the  plan  which  we  advocate  was  better 
for  the  interests  of  the  West,  than  that  v/hich  it  opposes.  Allowing,  for  the  sake  of 
the  argument,  that  it  is  not  better,  any  dispassionate  man  will  admit  it  to  be  nearly  as 
good.  And  then.  Sir,  no  principle  whatever  involved,  for  this  difference  between 
tweedle  dum  and  tweedle  dee,  we  are  to  "  cry  havoc  and  let  slip  the  dogs  of  war  !" 
Sir,  I  v/as  asked  the  other  day  to  testify  the  sincerity  of  my  attachment  for  my  native 
State  bj^  my  acts;  to  shew,  otherwise  than  by  words,  that  I  venerated  an  honorable 
member  of  this  body.  Here,  Sir,  this  day,  before  this  assembly,  I  tender  my  proofs. 
This  is  the  offering  that  I  bring,  little  as  it  is,  to  the  altar  of  our  common  and  beloved 
country.  Happy,  thrice  happy  had  I  been,  had  the  honorable  individual  to  whom  I 
take  the  liberty  to  allude,  had  gone  before  me  in  this  race.  I  did  anticipate  it ;  and  1 
feel  disappointment,  deep  and  painful  disappointment.  For  myself.  Sir,  allow  me  to 
say,  in  that  which  vi'ally  concerns  my  country,  no  consideration  shall  ever  induce 
me.  humble  as  I  am,  to  violate  tiie  dictates  of  my  conscience,  so  help  me  God. 

Mv.  Johnson  rose  in  explanation.  When  what  had  been  called  a  pledge  by  the 
Western  members  to  take  a  certain  course  had  been  given,  he  had  expressly  stated  it 
to  be  his  understanding  tliat  nothing  which  passed  should  bind  any  body.  No  pledge 
had  been  given  by  him.  Ki  liad  bound  himself  to  advocate  no  one  measure  in  pre- 
ference to  another.  He  had  said,  thai  the  object  of  the  meeting  was  simply  enquiry; 
a  frank  comparison  of  opinions,  to  ascertain  not  w^hat  was  best,  but  what  was  practi- 
cable, and  then  to  leave  each  individual  to  pursue  the  course  recommended  or  not, 
just  as  he  should  think  fit.  He  had  felt  himself  at  no  time  bound  to  vote  for  the  pro- 
position of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle;  and  the  suppcithe  should  now  give  it  was 
the  result  of  no  pledge  to  any  human  being. 

Mr.  J.  said,  he  should  vote  for  the  plan  of  that  gentleman,  viewing  it  as  a  compro- 
mise. But  not  with  any  view  whatever  that  it  was  to  sink  the  questio7i  which  had  been 
so  much  debated.  That  question  never  could  be  sunk  till  interest  should  sink  in  the 
view  of  men.  He  should  vote  for  this  as  a  part  of  that  whole  w^hich  he  had  from  the 
beginning  endeavored  to  attain  :  of  tha.t  whole  which  he  yet  trusted  the  wisdom  of 
this  Convention  would  be  adequate  to  devise.  If  they  were  to  be  finally  driven  from 
any  scheme  of  future  apportionment,  he  could  not  help  it :  but  his  vote  was  given  with 
no  view  to  put  an  end  to  the  question  as  to  the  just  basis  of  Representation.  Two 
schemes  had  been  presented  to  the  House ;  one  by  the  gentleman  from  Frederick, 
(Mr.  Cooke,)  the  other  by  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  (Mr.  Upshur,)  for  a  sys- 
tem of  future  apportionment.  He  would  vote  for  either.  He  would  willingly  assume 
that  responsibility,  should  no  other  or  preferable  plan  be  presented  to  the  Convention. 

Mr.  Thompson  said,  it  was  certainly  not  his  purpose  at  this  late  period  of  its  pro- 
ceedings, to  detain  the  Convention  v/ith  a  speech.  He  rose  merely  for  the  purpose 
of  explaining,  and  that  very  briefly,  the  vote  he  was  about  to  give.  He  had  been  a 
silent  voter  on  this  deeply  interesting  and  agitating  qiiestion  of  the  basis  of  Represen- 
tation, during  the  whole  progress  of  its  discussion  up  to  the  present  moment,  notwith- 
standing the  frequent  allusions,  direct  and  indirect,  made  in  the  debate,  to  the  district 
he  had  the  honor  in  part  to  represent  on  this  floor.  It  was  evident  from  the  character 
of  tiiose  allusions,  that  by  the  effect  or  accident  of  local  circumstances,  the  attitude  he 
was  placed  in,  and  the  relation  he  bore  to  this  question,  was  one  of  high  importance 
and  weighty  responsibility.  These  considerations  he  was  sure  would  constitute  a  suf- 
ficient apology  for  his  trespassing  a  short  time  upon  the  attention  of  the  Convention, 
jaded  and  exhausted  as  he  w^as  sure  it  must  be,  and  he  assured  the  Convention  it 
should  be  a  very  short  time.  He  meant  to  say  no  more  than  was  absolutely  necessary 
to  guard  his  course  and  conduct  from  misconstruction  from  any  and  every  quarter. 
Mr.  T.  said,  he  came  to  this  Convention  with  the  settled  and  deliberate  conviction 
that  free  white  population  was  the  only  true  basis  of  Representation  in  a  representa- 
tive democracy ;  and  he  came  pledged  to  his  constituents  to  act  upon  that  conviction 
in  the  votes  he  should  be  called  on  to  give  here.  That  conviction  had  not  been  in  the 
slightest  degree  shaken  by  any  thing  he  had  heard  in  debate,  and  by  his  votes  he  had 
as  faithfully  redeemed  his  pledge  to  his  constituents  as  he  had  obeyed  the  honest  dic- 
tates of  his  conscience  and  his  best  judgment.    He  had  foreseen,  however,  at  an  early 


DEBATES    OF    THE  CO^'VENTIO^^ 


TO] 


period  of  the  session,  tliat  concession  and  compromise  were  necessary  to  bring  cnr 
labors  to  an  harmonious  and  happy  termination.  The  fears  and  apprehensions  of  his 
Eastern  brethren,  which  he  had  hoped  could  be  allayed  by  a  Ccnstitutional  gnaranty 
against  unequal  and  oppressive  taxation  and  partial  appropriations,  had  rather  been 
augmented  than  allayed  by  the  temper  and  spirit  of  the  debate.  Those  fears  and  ap- 
prehensions he  had  heretofore  and  still  considered  imaginary,  but  they  were  not  on 
that  account  tiie  less  entitled  to  respect  and  consideration — and  so  soon  as  the  idea  of 
a  guarantv  was  repudiated,  as  it  seemed  to  be,  on  one  side,  if  not  on  both,  Mr.  T.  said^ 
he^had  made  up  his  mind  to  go  for  the  compromise  of  the  white  population  basis  in 
the  House  of  Delegates,  and  Federal  numbers  in  the  Senate.  This,  he  beheved  most 
conscientiously  to  be  the  true  and  the  only  middle  ground  between  the  panies — it 
placed  the  popular  branch  in  its  legitimate  hands,  the  majority  of  free  whites — this 
was  made  the  guardian  of  persons  and  personal  rights — it  gave  to  the  slave-holders 
the  Senate  for  their  protection — and  if  protr :  :  r  d  security  be  really  the  object  of 
the  East,  here  was  a  protection  and  safe-gv.  md  complete. 

Here  was  the  siiielJ  f^r  v.-]ii:h  they  hr  To  concede  the  House  of  Dele- 

gates also,  would  be  :  -  ra,  not  for  defence,  but  which  might 

be  employed  ofiensiv-  '-i2r  these  opinions,  he  had  earnestly 

hoped  this  comproinisr  .  :       :.:r  .  ...  :  ^  ren  his  •■  first  love,"  since  he  had  been 

impressed  with  the  necessity  ci  compromise,  and  he  had  uniformly  voted  for  it  in 
Committee  of  the  Whole,  and  in  Convention.  By  the  vote  just  taken,  however,  it 
had  been  lost  by  an  equal  division  of  the  body  ;  and  the  only  remaining  proposition 
now,  is  that  of  my  worthy  colleague,  (Mr.  Gordon.)  upon  which  we  are  about  to  vote. 

Of  the  merits  of  this  proposition,  ZSIr.  T.  would  say  nothing,  as  they  had  already 
been  fuEy  developed  by  the  mover  and  other  gentlemen  pro  and  con — though  the 
scheme  was  no  favourite  with  him,  he  had  assured  his  worthy  colleague,  and  had  al- 
ways intended  to  vote  for  it  as  a  compromise,  after  failing  in  his  first  choice,  provided 
in  the  meantime  no  proposition  less  objectionable  was  presented.  He  preferred  it  in- 
finitely to  the  projeis  of  the  gentleman  fi-om  Northampton,  (Mr.  Upshur.)  and  the 
gentleman  fi-om  Chesterfield,  Qtlr.  Leigh.)  ]Mow,  indeed,  Eilter  rejecting  all  othersy 
we  were  reduced  to  this  single  proposition :  and  objectionable  to  him  as  he  would 
candidly  confess  it  was.  he  could  not  hesitate  to  prefer  it  to  the  alternative  of  making- 
no  Constitution.  As  a  present  and  temporary  apportionment,  he  had  no  serious  ob- 
jections to  it.  The  great  defect  was,  that  it  contained  no  satisfactory  proA-isicn  for  fu- 
ture apportionments  of  power.  The  object  of  the  mover  he  had  avowed  to  be  to 
sink  that  vexed  question — this  !Mr.  T.  beheved  to  be  a  vain  efibrt — it  could  not  be,  it 
must  be  met  and  must  be  decided  and  adjusted  sooner  or  later :  and  the  sooner  the 
better  lor  the  repose  of  the  Commonwealth ;  and  hs,  Mr.  T..  believed  the  only  prac- 
ticable and  satisfactory  adjustment  that  could  take  place,  since  the  constitutional 
guaranty  was  repudiated,  was  to  adopt  the  white  basis  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  and 
the  Federal  or  mixed  basis  in  the  Senate.  This  would  satisfy  a  majority  of  the  com- 
munity and  nothing  else  would.  The  West  were  now  willing  to  yield  it,  and  it  was 
to  him  matter  of  astonishment  that  the  East  would  not  close  with  tiie  offer.  Sir.  T. 
said,  whilst  he  held  these  opinions,  and  whilst  he  feared  that  the  adoption  of  the  pro- 
position of  his  colleague,  would  defeat  the  passage  of  the  Constitution  in  this  Con- 
vention, and  if  not  its  ratification  by  the  people,  he  could  not,  so  far  as  his  vote  was 
concerned,  be  instrumentxd  in  its  rejection  now — ^for  peradventure  the  scheme  might, 
contrary  to  his  anticipations,  unite  a  respectable  majority  here,  and  a  Ciajoritv  of  the 
people.  He  felt  it,  therefore,  to  be  his  duty  under  present  circumstances,  to  orive  the 
experiment  a  fair  trial,  and  should  it  receive  the  sanction  and  support  of  a  majority 
here  and  elsewhere,  as  a  republican  he  should  feel  it  his  bounden  duty,  to  acquiesce 
cheerfully  in  their  decision.  For  these  reasons,  he  should  record  his  vote  in  favour  of 
the  proposition  of  his  colleague,  now  under  consideration. 

Mr.  Mercer  went  into  an  explanation  of  his  course.  He  considered  it  due  to  himself 
to  say.  that  like  the  gentieman  from  Augusta,  he  had  not  viewed  himself  Jis  compro- 
mitted  by  any  thing  that  passed  at  the  meeting  alluded  to.  It  was  the  first  of  the 
kind,  which  he  had  ever  attended  in  the  course  of  ids  short  political  fife.  The  meet- 
ing was  not  held  in  private  ;  other  gentlemen  were  present  besides  the  members  of 
Convention.  Some  gentlemen  whom  he  did  not  personally  know  :  the  door  had 
been  always  open  to  the  intrusion  of  any  one.  He  supposed  that  the  object  had  been 
to  ascertain  whether  any  compromise  could  be  sustaine  d.  He  was  himself  in  favour 
of  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Goochland,  (Mr.  Pleasants.)  and  had  made  a  cal- 
culation, according  to  which  he  reckoned  a  majority  of  sixteen  votes  in  its  favour. 
When  he  discovered  that  they  had  a  majorit)^  of  twenty-four  thousand  of  the  citizens 
of  the  Commonwealth  in  favour  of  the  white  basis,  exclusive  of  Albemarle,  he  had 
felt  much  encouraged.  Delicate  as  was  his  situation,  he  should  persevere  in  voting 
against  any  other  scheme  than  that  of  the  white  basis  in  the  House  of  Delecrates.  He 
thought  t'lis  was  the  very  last  moment  in  which  any  friend  of  that  cause^ought  to 
despair.    The  vote  which  had  been  given  rather  filled  him  with  hope.    He  Siould 


702 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


vote  against  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle.    He  had  understood 
the  gentleman  from  Goochland,  had  consented  to  vote  for  his  own  proposition. 
Mr.  Pleasants  denied  having  given  such  an  assurance. 

Mr.  Cooke  made  an  explanation,  corroborating  the  statement  of  Mr.  Pleasants. 

Mr.  Pleasants  said,  that  he  had  declared,  that  if  he  could  not  get  a  graduated  sys- 
tem of  county  representation  to  suit  him,  he  might  possibly  accept  of  the  other ;  but 
that  he  was  so  situated  wath  respect  to  his  district,  that  he  did  not  know  if  it  would 
have  been  in  his  power.  He  had  expressly  said  at  the  meeting,  that  he  would  bind 
himself  to  nothing. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  that  he  had  so  understood  all  the  other  gentlemen  :  he  never  had 
been  any  where  that  he  would  consent  to  be  bound.  He  had  the  public  assurance  of 
the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  (Mr.  Upshur,)  that  he  was  not  satisfied  with  a 
Senate  of  thirty-six,  and  that  if  forty  was  moved,  he  should  sustain  it.  He  had, 
therefore,  counted  upon  that  gentleman's  support.  He  had  also  reckoned  upon  the 
venerable  gentleman  from  Orange,  (Mr.  Madison,)  and  very  confidently  on  the  sup- 
port of  the  gentleman  from  Richmond,  (Mr.  Marshall.)  He  had  now,  however,  wit- 
nessed one  equal  division  of  the  House  on  a  Senate  based  upon  the  Federal  number, 
and  a  House  of  Representatives  upon  the  white  basis.  And  this  was  the  moment 
gentlemen  had  chosen  to  despair — on  him  it  had  a  very  different  effect. 

If,  indeed,  he  could  believe  with  his  friend  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Cooke,)  and  his 
colleague,  (Mr.  Henderson,)  who  had  conjured  up  such  frightful  phantoms  before  their 
own  imagination  and  that  of  the  Convention,  then,  indeed,  he  would  give  gentlemen 
a  carte  bianche,  and  they  might  write  any  Constitution  that  they  supposed  would  re- 
medy the  evil ;  but  he  could  believe  in  no  such  thing.  In  his  country,  certainly  he 
had  never  heard  of  such  an  idea.  There  had  been,  he  believed,  some  meetings  of  the 
non-freeholders,  but  nothing  was  to  be  apprehended  of  a  violent  character.  The 
question  was  to  be  settled,  not  by  alarm,  but  by  sound  judgment.  The  gentlemen 
seemed  to  suppose,  that  they  were  not  fixing  on  any  basis  of  Representation,  because 
this  apportionment  was  called  an  arbitrary  one.  It  was  not  arbitrary — a  principle  of 
apportionment  was  at  the  bottom  of  it.  And  if  it  was  intended  to  sink  the  question 
in  dispute,  it  certainly  failed  of  its  object.  Where  must  the  resort  be  made,  to  dis- 
cover the  principles  on  which  it  was  founded.?  To  the  Census  of  the  State.  And 
did  gentlemen  suppose,  that  their  constituents  would  not  or  could  not  resort  to  the 
Census  too.?  They  had  gained  nothing  on  that  score.  He  granted,  that  when  the 
Constitution  should  come  before  the  people,  it  would  be  hard  to  say  on  what  basis  it 
was  founded. 

It  was  not  on  the  white  basis,  nor  on  the  black  basis,  nor  on  a  money  basis.  But 
did  they  suppose  this  would  satisfy  the  people  ?  Were  they  likely  to  remain  con- 
tented.?  He  said  no  ;  and  he  believed  that  gentlemen  deceived  themselves,  if  they 
thought  that  the  great  question  would  be  settled  by  the  present  Convention. 

Mr.  Upshur  then  spoke  as  follows  : 

Mr.  President, — I  should  not  trespass  on  the  patience  of  the  Convention  at  this  late 
hour,  if  it  were  not  for  the  direct  allusion  which  has  been  made  to  me,  by  the  gentle- 
man from  Loudoun,  (Mr.  Mercer.)  That  allusion  renders  it  proper,  if  not  absolutely 
necessary,  that  1  should  ask  your  attention  for  a  few  minutes.  The  gentleman,  after 
having  assigned  reasons  for  calculating  with  certainty  on  tlie  support  of  the  gentle- 
man from  Richmond,  (Judge  Marshall,)  and  the  gentleman  from  Goochland,  (Mr. 
Pleasants,)  concluded  his  remarks  with  an  intimation,  that  /  also  had  brought  myself 
within  the  reach  of  his  reasonable  hopes.  He  founds  these  hopes  upon  an  expres- 
sion which  escaped  me  some  three  weeks  ago,  while  this  subject  was  under  conside- 
ration in  Committee  of  the  V/hole,  an  expression  not  used  in  the  course  of  argument, 
but  incidentally  only.  The  gentleman,  however,  has  never  lost  sight  of  it,  and  he 
has  just  told  us,  that  he  considered  it  as  authorising  him  to  calculate  on  my  support 
of  the  measure  which  we  have  just  rejected,  under  all  possible  circumstances,  and  in 
every  conceivable  condition  of  things.  With  what  justice  or  reason  he  has  che- 
rished these  hopes,  a  very  brief  review  of  the  facts  of  the  case  will  enable  you  to 
determine. 

It  is  needless  to  advert  to  the  efforts  which  were  made  by  me,  to  bring  about  a  com- 
promise of  our  differences  with  reference  to  this  question,  before  the  strength  of  par- 
ties should  be  tested  by  any  direct  vote.  Suffice  it  to  say,  that  my  wishes  were  met, 
and  my  efforts  were  of  course  unavailing.  By  a  majority  of  two,  the  free  white  po- 
pulation was  adopted  as  the  basis  of  Representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates.  But 
the  question  was  still  unsettled  as  to  the  Senate,  and  it  was  extremely  doubtful,  whe- 
ther or  not  the  East  would  be  able  to  carry  its  principle  into  the  organization  even  of 
that  House.  I  was  myself  extremely  anxious  to  succeed  in  this  measure.  Beheving 
that  the  House  of  Delegates  was  forever  lost  to  us,  I  was  eager  to  grasp  at  any  thing 
which  promised  security,  even  though  imperfect  and  precarious  to  those  Eastern  in- 
terests which  we  all  considered  to  be  most  in  danger.  I  believed  it  to  be  better  to 
gain  a  little — however  little — than  to  lose  all ;  and  I  am  of  the  same  opinion  still.  In 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


703 


the  mean  time,  however,  the  views  of  parties  had  begun  to  change.  The  gentleman 
from  Goochland,  (Mr.  Pleasants.)  who  had  all  along  voted  with  the  majority,  had  be- 
come uneasy  at  the  distracted  state  of  our  councils,  and  had  brought  forward  his  pro- 
position for  a  Senate  arranged  on  Federal  numbers,  as  a  measure  of  compromise. 
But  it  was  now  too  late.  The  East  had  looked  warily  into  the  subject,  and  it  had 
become  a  serious  question  with  a  large  majority  of  that  delegation,  whether  they 
ought  to  accept  of  such  a  Senate  or  not.  A  few  of  them,  and  myself  among  the 
number,  thouoht  that  we  ought,  for  we  considered  it  wiser,  in  the  present  state  of 
public  feelinir,  to  submit  even  an  exceptionable  Constitution  to  the  people,  than  to 
dissolve  the  "Convention  without  doing  any  thing.  But  we  all  contemplated  not 
merely  a  Senate  on  the  basis  of  Federal  numbers,  or  some  other  basis  equally  favora- 
ble to  us,  but  we  looked  also  to  additional  guards  and  securities.  The  gentleman 
from  Fairfax,  (Mr.  Fitzhugh.)  had  submitted  his  guarantees  against  unequal  taxation, 
which  were  still  undisposed  of,  and  which  were  in  the  contemplation  of  every  Ecistern 
member  who  had  reconciled  himself  to  such  a  Senate  at  all.  In  this  state  of  things, 
the  question  came  up  for  consideration.  The  gentleman  from  Fauquier,  (Mr.  Scott,) 
proposed  a  Senate  of  forty-eight,  based  on  taxation  alone,  and  possessing  concurrent 
Legislative  powers  with  the  House  of  Delegates.  This,  it  is  believed,  would  have 
been  acceptable  to  every  Eastern  member,  but  it  was  lost,  the  2inivcrsal  Western  vote 
being  against  it.  We  then  proposed  a  Senate  of  thirty-six.  upon  a  different  basis,  but 
it  was  lost,  the  universal  Wesicrn  vote  being  against  it.  A  Senate  of  thirty  or  thirty- 
two  was  then  proposed,  and  before  the  question  was  taken,  the  gentleman  from 
Brooke,  (]Mr.  Doddridge.)  gravely  proposed  the  number  of  the  existing  Senate, 
twenty -four  !  That  gentleman  knew,  as  ever}^  other  gentleman  knew,  that  no  Eas- 
tern member  would  agree  to  accept  of  a  Senate  organized  upon  any  principle  what- 
ever, without  a  considerable  increase  in  the  number  of  that  House.  But  this  was  not 
all.  That  same  gentleman  had  declared  on  that  occasion,  or  a  few  days  before — the 
time  is  of  no  consequence — that  his  votes  on  the  question  of  suffrage  had  been  given 
with  express  reference  to  this  subject.  Such  a  Senate  as  we  asked  was  odious  to 
him,  and  he  had  voted  for  the  least  limited  extension  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  with 
the  express  view  of  rendering  that  Senate  useless  and  unavailing.  This  object  was 
to  render  it  either  inoperative  in  practice,  or  very  short  in  duration.  Sir,  when  things 
of  this  sort  were  acting  before  my  e^yes,  by  gentlemen  who  professed  to  be  in  search 
of  fair  compromise,  and  who  calculated  on  my  support  to  their  measure,  I  thought  it 
high  time  to  undeceive  them.  It  was  then  that  I  told  them,  that  all  these  attempts 
were  worse  than  idle ;  that  although  they  did  not  mean  to  moclt  us,  yet  that  we  should 
assuredly  regard  their  offers  as  the  worst  of  mockery,  if  they  did  not  indicate  some 
desire  to  render  those  offers  acceptable  to  us,  and  that  the  course  they  were  pursuing 
would  have  the  certain  effect  of  driving  from  them  even  those  among  us,  who  were 
then  best  disposed  to  their  measures.  1  added  also,  with  very  little  of  the  caution  of 
tlie  diplomatist,  I  admit,  for  I  have  no  concealments,  neither  in  Parliament  nor  out  of 
it,  that  so  far  as  I  myself  was  concerned,  I  would  prefer  a  Senate  of  forty -eight,  but 
that  I  might  agree  to  one  of  thirty-six,  and  would  not  agree  to  any  less  number.  This 
is  the  remark  alluded  to  by  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  and  these  the  circum- 
stances under  which  it  was  made.  The  gentleman  now  offers  us  a  Senate  of  thirty- 
six — he  gives  us  one  number,  but  he  loses  sight  of  that  increase  of  Legislative  power, 
which  was  contemplated  in  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier,  and  of 
the  equally  valuable  guarantee  of  the  gentleman  from  Fairfax  !  An  expression  of  my 
willingness  to  accept  a  Senate  of  thirtj^-six,  but  with  a  reference  irresistibly  implied 
to  all  the  guards  and  securities  which  were  then  before  us,  and  considered  in  direct 
connection  with  it,  has  been  construed  into  something  like  a  pledge,  that  I  would  ac- 
cept of  a  Senate  with  that  number  oJiJij,  tcithovt  either  guard  or  security  !  ! 

But,  there  is  yet  another  part  of  the  history  of  this  subject,  which  deserves  to  be 
mentioned.  Even  after  the  declaration  above  alluded  to  was  made,  no  farther  vote 
was  taken  upon  the  question.  No  Western  gentleman  ever  announced  his  willino-. 
ness  to  vote  for  a  Senate  of  thirty-six,  either  with  or  without  guards  and  securities, 
but  the  Committee  rose,  without  coming  to  any  resolution  in  regard  to  it.  The  sub- 
ject was  not  again  taken  up  for  many  days,  nor  until  Western  gentlemen  had  held  no 
less  than  three  meetings  of  their  friends,  in  order  to  determine  whether  they  would 
go  even  as  far  as  they  no2v  propose,  or  not.  In  the  mean  time,  the  attention  of  Eas- 
tern members  had  been  turned  to  other  plans  of  compromise.  The  gentleman  from 
Albemarle  had  submitted  the  scheme  now  before  us — the  gentleman  from  Chester- 
field had  submitted  another — I  had  myself  submitted  a  third,  and  the  gentleman  from 
Richmond  had  presented  calculations  for  a  fourth.  Each  and  every  one  of  these 
measures  was  more  acceptable  to  the  Eastern  delegation,  than  the  House  of  Dele- 
gates on  the  white  basis,  and  the  Senate  on  every  other  basis  that  could  be  devised  • 
measures  which  we  had  carefully  prepared,  and  committed  ourselves  to  support,  while 
the  gentleman  from  Loudoun  and  his  friends  were  deliberating  whether  they  would 
give  us  a  feeble  and  inefficient  Senate  of  thirty-six  members,  or  not.    They  finally 


704 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


determined  that  they  would  make  us  the  offer,  but  never  until  it  was  fully  ascertained, 
that  we  could  get  all  that  they  offered  us  and  more,  without  any  assistance  from  them. 
And  yet  under  all  these  circumstances,  after  the  backwardness  and  reluctance  of  Wes- 
tern gentlemen  to  meet  us  on  the  terms  of  compromise,  proposed  by  the  gentleman 
from  Goochland,  had  forced  us  upon  other  expedients,  after  we  had  committed  our- 
selves to  our  friends,  and  to  the  country  at  large,  to  advocate  and  sustain  those  expe- 
dients with  all  our  powers.  While  those  very  expedients  were  yet  before  us  undis- 
posed of,  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun  has  flattered  himself  with  the  hope,  that  we 
should  consider  ourselves  under  a  pledge  to  retrace  our  steps,  to  abandon  all  our  own 
favourite  projects,  and  to  accept  another,  which  we  had  never  looked  to  but  as  a  last 
alternative,  and  which  was  never  offered  to  us,  until  it  could  no  longer  be  withheld  ! 
Whether  the  gentleman,  in  entertaining  this  extravagant  expectation,  has  deceived 
himself,  or  been  deceived  by  others,  you.  Sir,  and  others  who  hear  me,  may  determine. 

But,  Sir,  whatever  may  have  been  the  favour  with  which  we  at  first  regarded  the 
measure  to  which  the  gentleman  is  now  so  anxious  to  bind  us,  he  has  himself,  given 
us  the  best  possible  reasons  for  looking  more  narrowly  into  the  matter.  If  we  have 
become  somewhat  more  distrustful  than  we  were  at  first,  we  owe  our  additional  cau- 
tion to  the  gentleman's  own  admonitions.  Remember,  Sir,  that  this  measure  is  offered 
us  under  the  name  of  compromise ;  an  agreement  founded  upon  mutual,  if  not  equal 
concession.  None  of  us  have  forgotten  the  masterly  argument  of  the  gentleman 
from  Richmond,  (Judge  Marshall,)  upon  this  subject.  He  endeavoured  to  shew,  that 
to  give  the  Senate  to  the  East  and  the  House  of  Delegates  to  the  West,  was  not  an 
equal  compromise,  and  that  the  very  gentlemen  who  offered  it,  did  not  consider  it 
equal.  "  If  they  do  consider  it  equal,"  (said  he)  "  why  will  they  not  take  the  Senate 
and  give  us  the  House  of  Delegates  The  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  in  reply  to 
this  question,  no  Sir,  not  in  reply  to  it,  for  it  is  one  of  those  home  questions  which 
admit  of  no  reply,  in  endeavouring  to  evade  the  force  of  it,  told  us  that  equality  was 
not  what  we  asked  for ;  that  protection  and  security  were  the  utmost  that  we  had 
ever  demanded.  The  same  idea  has  been  reiterated  by  the  gentleman  from  Brooke, 
(Mr.  Doddridge.) 

Now,  Sir,  will  gentlemen  be  pleased  to  tell  me,  whether  they  believe  that  we 
should  be  "  secure"  or  not,  if  both  branches  of  the  Legislature  were  based  on  white 
population  ?  They  may  answer  the  question  as  they  please.  If  they  think  that  we 
should  not  be  "  secure,"  then  they  meant  us  injustice  when  they  so  strenuously  con- 
tended for  that  basis,  and  of  course  we  were  riglit  on  that  question.  If  on  the  other 
liand,  they  think  that  we  should  he  "  secure,"  then  what  do  they  concede  to  us,  when 
Ihey  offer  us  the  Senate.?  They  will  doubtless  disclaim,  as  they  may  truly  disclaim, 
all  idea  of  intentional  injustice,  and  then,  the  conclusion  is  inevitable,  that  in  offering 
•as  the  Senate,  they  offer  us  no  more  than  they  themselves  believe,  we  fully  enjoyed 
before.  Is  not  this  a  perfectly  original  idea  of  a  compromise.?  a  compromise  which 
neither  concedes  nor  abandons  any  thing  whatever  !  !  Nay  more.  A  compromise 
which  proposes  to  give  us,  as  an  equivalent  for  a  total  abandonment  of  our  political 
principles  and  pohtical  power  also,  security  for  our  property,  against  unjust  or  unv/ise 
legislation ;  a  compromise  which  exacts  every  thing  from  us,  and  gives  us  no  more 
than  belongs,  of  absolute  right,  to  every  human  being  in  the  world.?  It  is  from  this 
view  of  the  subject,  that  I  have  repeatedly  refused  to  debate  the  terms  of  this  propo- 
sition. I  can  never  recognise  it  as  a  compromise  at  all.  And  surely.  Sir,  no  better 
reason  can  be  required  than  is  here  presented,  for  refusing  now,  a  measure  which  ap- 
peared so  plausible,  before  its  own  friends  had  stripped  it  of  its  disguise.  When  we 
claimed  the  Senate  and  struggled  to  gain  it,  we  considered  it  of  value,  because  we 
believed  that  it  would  give  us  political  power  ;  and  then  it  was  refused  to  us.  And 
now  it  is  offered  to  us,  and  it  is  insisted  that  we  are  bound  to  take  it,  after  gentlemen 
have  proved  to  us  that  it  gives  no  power  at  all ;  that  they  never  intended  that  it 
should  give  any  thing  more  than  "  security,"  and  that  even  in  point  of  "  security," 
it  gives  us  no  more  than  we  had  without  it.  Under  these  circumstances  the  gentle- 
man from  Loudoun  may  measure  the  reasonableness  of  his  expectations,  by  his  own 
estimate  of  our  intelligence  and  watchfulness. 

The  final  question  was  now,  at  length,  put  on  agreeing  to  Mr.  Gordon's  compro- 
mise, and  decided  in  the  affirmative  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

j2ycs  Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Clopton,  Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph, 
Leio-h  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Henderson,  Cooke, 
Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae, 
Green^  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Branch,  Townes, 
Martin',  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes, 
Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin— 55. 

JVoe^— Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldv/m,  M  Coy,  Moore, 
Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Osborne,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


705 


Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of 
Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Sum- 
mers, See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Claytor,  Saunders, 
Cabell  and  Stuart— 41. 

So  the  Convention,  by  a  majority  of  fourteen  votes,  decided  to  adopt  the  following 
arrangement  on  the  subject  of  representation  in  the  Legislature,  viz  : 

Resolved,  Tiiat  the  representation  in  the  Senate  and  House  of  Delegates  of  Vir- 
ginia, shall  be  apportioned  as  follows  : 

"  There  shall  be  thirteen  Senators  west  of  the  Blue  Ridge  of  Mountains,  and  nine- 
teen east  of  those  Mountains  : 

"  There  shall  be  in  the  House  of  Delegates  one  hundred  and  twenty-seven  mem- 
bers, of  whom  twenty-nine  shall  be  elected  from  the  district  west  of  the  Alleghany 
Mountains ;  twenty-four  from  the  Valley  between  the  Alleghany  and  Blue  Ridge  ; 
forty  from  the  Blue  Ridge  to  the  head  of  tide- water,  and  thirty-four  thence  below." 

The  Convention  then  adjourned — (at  near  five  o'clock.) 


MONDAY,  December  21,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr- 
Welsh  of  the  Baptist  Church. 

The  Convention  returned  to  the  consideration  of  the  report  of  the  Legislative 
Committee. 

The  first  resolution  was  read  as  follov\' s  ; 
Resolved,  That  in  the  apportionment  of  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates, 
regard  should  be  had  to  the  white  population  exclusively." 

Mr.  Scott  moved  to  lay  it  on  the  table,  (the  plan  of  Mr.  Gordon  having  been  adopt- 
ed on  Saturday,  which  in  effect  supersedes  it.) 

Mr.  Doddridge  demanded  the  ayes  and  noes,  and  they  were  taken  as  follows : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of 
Chesterfield,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Clopton,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of 
Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline, 
Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis, 
Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates, 
Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Jojmes,  Ba3^1y,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 49. 

Aoes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson, 
M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne, 
Cooke,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George, 
M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby, 
Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddrido-e,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson, 
Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell  and  Stuart — 44. 

The  second  resolution  was  then  read  as  follov»'s : 

"  Resolved,  That  a  Census  of  the  population  of  the  State,  for  the  purpose  of  appor- 
tioning the  representation,  should  be  taken  in  the  year  1831,  the  year  1845,  and 
thereafter  at  least  once  in  every  twenty  years." 

Mr.  Stuart  of  Patrick,  moved  to  amend  this  resolution  by  substituting  the  following  : 

"  That  in  order  to  provide  for  the  future  equalization  of  representation,  the  Legis- 
lature shall,  in  the  year  1840,  and  every  ten  years  thereafter,  make  provision  by  law 
for  ascertaining  the  whole  number  of  qualified  voters  within  the  Commonwealth; 
and  shall  apportion  the  representation  among  the  four  districts  following,  to  v/it : 
First,  The  country  west  of  the  Alleghany.  Second,  The  country  between  the  Alle- 
ghany and  the  Blue  Ridge.  Third,  The  country  between  the  Blue  Ridge  and  tide- 
water ;  and  Fourth,  The  country  thence  below,  according  to  the  number  of  qualified 
voters  contained  in  each  district  respectively:  and  shall,  in  distributing  the  members 
to  which  each  of  said  districts  shall  be  entitled,  secure,  as  far  as  possible,  at  least  one 
member  to  each  county:  Provided,  That  the  number  of  the  House  of  Delegates  shall 
never  exceed  one  hundred  and  forty,  nor  that  of  the  Senate,  thirty-six." 

Mr.  Stuart,  not  wishing  to  bring  on  the  discussion  at  this  time,  moved  to  lay  this 
amendment  on  the  table.  He  had  offered  it,  he  said,  as  presenting  a  scheme  for  fu- 
ture apportionment ;  and  he  hoped  that  other  gentlemen,  having  propositions  intended 
to  effect  the  same  object,  would  bring  them  forward,  that  the  Convention  might  have 
the  Avhole  field  before  them. 

Mr.  Scott  said  he  should  vote  to  lay  the  gentleman's  resolution  on  the  table,  but 
candor  required  him  to  apprise  the  mover,  that  he  should  vote  against  taking  it  up 
again.    If  the  gentleman  had  not  made  the  motion,  he  should  have  made  it  himself. 

89 


706 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


After  the  very  decided  vote  of  Saturday,  any  attempt  to  bring  up  that  subject  agaiiij 
could  tend  only  to  mischief. 
Tiie  motion  was  agreed  to. 

Mr.  Summers  said  he  had  voted  to  lay  the  resolution  on  the  table,  but  he  should 
vote  to  take  it  up  whenever  the  mover  should  think  it  advisable.  He  expressed  his 
hope  of  some  arrangement  yet  being  gone  into,  in  relation  to  a  future  apportionment 
of  representation.  When  that  hope  should  forsake  him,  all  expectation  of  good  from 
this  Convention  would  depart  witli  it. 

He  moved  the  printing  of  the  amendment,  which  was  ordered  accordingly. 

The  3d,  4tli,  5th,  6th,  7th  and  8th  resolutions  v\^ere  then  read  as  follows : 

^'  Resolved,  That  the  Right  of  Suffrage  shall  continue  to  be  exercised  by  all  who 
now  enjoy  it  under  the  existing  Constitution  :  Provided,  That  no  person  shall  vote  by 
virtue  of  his  freehold  only,  unless  the  same  shall  be  assessed  to  tire  value  of  at  least 
dollars,  for  the  payment  of  taxes,  if  such  assessment  be  required  by  law ;  and 
shall  be  extended,  1st,  to  every  free  white  male  citizen  of  the  Commonwealth,  resi- 
dent therein,  above  the  age  of  twenty-one  years,  who  owns,  and  has  possessed  for  six  '  • 
months,  or  Vv^ho  has  acquired  by  marriage,  descent  or  devise,  a  freehold  estate,  as- 
sessed to  the  value  of  not  less  than  dollars,  for  the  payment  of  taxes,  if  such 
assessment  shall  be  required  by  law  :  2d,  or  who  shall  own  a  vested  estate  in  fee,  in 
remainder  or  reversion,  in  land,  the  assessed  value  of  which  shall  be  dollars  : 
3d,  or  who  shall  own,  and  have  possessed  a  leasehold  estate,  with  the  evidence  of  title 
recorded,  of  a  term  originally  not  less  than  five  years,  and  one  of  which  shall  be  un- 
expired, of  the  annual  value  or  rent  of  dollars  :  4th,  or  who  for  twelve  months 
next  preceding,  has  been  a  house-keeper  and  head  of  a  family  within  the  county,  city, 
borough  or  election  district,  where  he  may  offer  to  vote,  and  who  shall  have  been  as- 
sessed wit4i  a  part  of  the  revenue  of  the  Commonwealth  within  the  preceding  year, 
and  actually  paid  the  same  :  Provided,  nevertheless,  That  the  Right  of  Suffrage  shall 
not  be  exercised  by  any  person  of  unsound  mind,  or  who  shall  be  a  pauper,  or  a  non- 
commissioned officer,  soldier,  sailor  or  marine,  in  the  service  of  the  United  States,  nor 
by  any  person  convicted  of  any  infamous  offence,  nor  by  citizens  born  without  the 
Commonwealth,  unless  they  shall  have  resided  therein  for  five  years  immediately  pre- 
ceding the  election  at  whicla  they  shall  offer  to  vote,  and  two  years  preceding  the  said 
election,  in  the  county,  city,  borough  or  election  district,  where  they  shall  offer  to 
vote,  (the  mode  of  proving  such  previous  residence,  when  disputed,  to  be  prescribed 
by  law,)  and  shall  possess,  moreover,  sonie  one  or  more  of  the  qualifications  above 
enumerated. 

"  Resolved,  That  the  number  of  memJoers  in  the  Senate  of  this  State  ought  to  be 
neither  increased  nor  diminished,  nor  the  classification  of  its  members  changed. 

"  Resolved,  That  the  number  of  members  in  the  House  of  Delegates  ought  to  be 
reduced,  so  that  the  same  be  not  less  than  one  hundred  and  twenty,  nor  more  than 
one  hundred  and  fifty. 

"  Resolved,  That  no  person  ought  to  be  elected  a  member  of  the  Senate  of  this 
State,  who  is  not  at  least  thirty  years  of  age. 

Resolved,  That  no  person  ought  to  be  elected  a  member  of  the  House  of  Dele- 
gates of  this  State,  v/ho  is  not  at  least  twenty-five  years  of  age. 

"  Resolred,  That  it  ought  to  be  provided,  that  in  all  elections  for  members  of  either 
branch  of  the  General  Assembly,  and  in  the  election  of  all  officers  which  may  be  re- 
quired to  be  made  by  the  two  Houses  of  Assembly  jointly,  or  in  either  separately, 
with  the  exception  of  the  appointment  of  their  own  officers,  the  votes  should  be  given 
openly  or  viva  voce,  and  not  by  ballot." 

These  resolutions  having  been  already  acted  upon,  were  passed  by. 

The  9th  resolution  was  then  read  as  follows  : 

"  Resolved,  That  no  man  shall  be  compelled  to  frequent  or  support  any  religious 
worship,  place  or  ministry  whatsoever  ;  nor  shall  be  enforced,  restrained,  molested  or 
burthened  in  his  body  or  goods,  nor  shall  otherwise  suffer  on  account  of  his  religious 
opinions  or  belief ;  but  that  all  men  shall  be  free  to  profess,  and  by  argument  to  main- 
tain their  opinions  in  matters  of  religion  ;  and  that  the  same  shall  in  no  wise  diminish, 
enlarge  or  affect  their  civil  capacities. 

"  That  the  Legislature  shall  have  no  power  to  prescribe  any  religious  test  what- 
ever, nor  to  establish  by  law  any  subordination  or  preference  between  different  sects 
or  denominations,  nor  confer  any  peculiar  privileges  or  advantages  on  any  one  sect 
or  denomination  over  others,  nor  pass  any  lav/,  requiring  or  authorising  any  religious 
society,  or  the  people  of  any  district  v/ithin  this  Commonwealth ,  to  levy  on  them- 
selves or  others,  any  tax  for  the  erection  or  repair  of  any  house  for  public  worship, 
or  the  support  of  any  church  or  ministry ;  but  that  it  be  left  free  to  every  person  to 
select  v/hom  he  pleases  as  his  religious  instructor,  and  to  make  for  his  support  such 
private  contract  as  he  pleases  :  Provided,  hdzoever,  That  the  foregoing  clauses  shall 
not  be  so  construed,  as  to  permit  any  Minister  of  the  Gospel,  or  Priest  of  any  de- 
nominationj  to  be  ehgible  to  either  House  of  the  General  Assembly." 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


707 


The  question  was  taken  on  the  first  paragraph,  and  decided  unanimously  in  the 
affirmative.    (And  it  was  so  recorded.) 

The  question  being  then  put  on  the  second  paragraph, 

Mr.  Henderson  moved  to  rtrike  out  the  proviso,  (which  inhibits  the  election  of 
Priests  and  Ministers  of  the  Gospel  to  the  Legislature.) 

Mr.  H.  put  his  motion  on  the  ground  of  principle.  Jt  was  a  conviction  of  his  mind 
which  he  could  not  yield  even  to  the  views  of  his  constituents.  He  considered  such 
exclusion  directly  at  war  with  the  principles  laid  down  in  the  previous  part  of  the 
resolution. 

Mr.  Clopton  demanded  the  ayes  and  noes,  which  were  ordered. 

Mr.  Giles,  in  a  short  speech,  pressed  those  two  points,  that  ministers  were  taken 
from  among  the  people  by  the  possession  of  two  important  privileges  :  1st,  the  license 
to  preach  ;  and  2d,  the  exemption  from  military  duty.  This  made  them  a  peculiar  and 
privileged  order.  If  those  privileges  were  taken  away,  it  might  be  more  fair  to  admit 
them  to  political  privileges,  thoug-h  on  that  point  he  gave  no  opinion. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke  suggested,  that  tliese  objections  applied  with  equal  force 
to  justices  of  the  peace,  and  nobody  contended  for  excluding  them. 

The  question  was  then  taken  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Clopton,  Madison,  Mercer,  Henderson,  Cooke,  Donaldson,  Pendle- 
ton, Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Claytor  and  Saun- 
ders— 14. 

■Noes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Anderson,  CofFmaii,  Harrison,  V/ilhamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne, 
Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Ran- 
dolph, Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Fitzhugh,  Osborne, 
Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Boyd,  George,  M'Miilan,  Campbell  of  Washing- 
ton, Byars,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Iilorris,  Garnett,  QloyA,  Chapman,  Matliews, 
Ogiesby,  Duncan,  Laidley ,  Wilson,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Taze- 
well, Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsb}^,  Campbell  of  Bedfoi'd,  Branch,  Townes,  Cabell,  Martin, 
Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes, 
Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 81. 

So  the  Convention  refused  to  strike  out  the  proviso,  which  excludes  ministers  of 
the  Gospel  from  the  Assembly. 

The  last  paragraph  of  the  resolution  was  agreed  to  without  debate. 

The  10th  and  llth  resolutions  were  then  agreed  to  as  follows  : 

"  Resolved,  That  no  bill  of  attainder,  or  ex  post  facto  law,  or  law  impairing  the  ob- 
ligation of  contracts,  ought  to  be  passed. 

"  Resolved,  That  private  property  ought  not  to  be  taken  for  public  uses,  without 
just  compensation." 

The  12th  resolution  being  read  as  follows : 

^'Resolved,  That  the  members  of  the  Legislature  shall  receive  for  their  services  a 
compensation  to  be  ascertained  by  lav/,  and  paid  out  of  the  public  treasurj^ ;  but  no 
law  increasing  the  compensation  of  members  of  the  Legislature,  shall  take  effect  until 
the  end  of  the  next  annual  session  after  the  said  law  may  have  been  enacted." 

Mr,  Claytor  moved  to  amend  it,  by  striking  out  the  word  end,"  and  inserting  the 
word  "  commencement."  But  on  a  suggestion  by  Mr.  Coalter,  that  the  object  was  to 
prevent  the  Legislature  from  being  under  the  bias  of  an  increased  salar^^,  when  they 
gave  their  vote. 

He  withdrew  his  amendment,  and  the  resolution  was  agreed  to. 
The  13th  and  last  resolution  was  then  read  as  follows : 

"  Resolved,  That  no  Senator  or  Delegate  shall,  during  the  term  for  which  he  shall 
have  been  elected,  be  appointed  to  any  civil  onice  of  profit  under  this  State,  which 
shall  have  been  created,  or  the  emoluments  of  which  shall  have  been  increased  during 
such  term,  except  such  offices  as  may  be  filled  by  elections  by  the  people." 

The  House  agreed  to  the  resolution,  and  thus  completed  its  action  on  the  report  of 
the  Legislative  Committee. 

Mr.  Scott  now  moved  the  following  : 
Resolved,  That  no  member  of  the  Legislature  shall,  during  the  period  for  which 
he  shall  have  been  elected,  be  appointed  to  any  office,  the  appointment  to  which  is 
made  by  the  Legislature." 

Mr.  Morgan  said  he  was  opposed  to  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman,  (Mr.  Scott,) 
because  he  believed  its  obvious  tendency  would  be  injurious.  If  the  Assembly  be 
prohibited  from  appointing  its  own  members  to  office  in  all  cases,  or,  in  other  words, 
if  the  members  shall  be  rendered  incapable  of  being  so  appointed,  they  will  be  induced 
by  law  to  give  the  appointment  to  the  Governor,  of  all  the  great  officers  of  State, 
whose  appointments  shall  not  be  fixed  in  the  Constitution.  This  would  very  much 
increase  the  Executive  power,  and  from  hope  of  office,  directly  tend  to  make  the  mem- 
bers of  Assembly  subservient  to  the  Governor,  which  ought  to  be  avoided.  He  thought 


708 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


the  power  of  appointment  much  safer  in  the  hands  of  the  Assembly,  than  of  the 
Executive. 

Mr.  Summers  was  opposed  to  the  resolution,  and  asked  for  the  ayes  and  noes. 

Mr.  Leigh  suggested  two  objections  to  the  measure:  It  would  keep  all  persons 
ambitious  of  the  leading  offices  of  the  State,  from  entering  the  Legislature  at  all,  and 
it  would  injuriously  narrow  the  ground  of  choice  to  fill  them. 

Mr.  Scott  did  not  admit  the  force  of  these  objections.  He  thought  the  Legislature 
was,  in  general,  the  road  to  political  honors,  and  that  nothing  would  deter  ambitious 
men  from  entering  it.  Though  the  latter  objection  might  be  true  in  theory,  yet  in 
practice,  he  thought  the  rule  would  work  the  other  v;ay. 

Mr.  Bayly  opposed  the  resolution.  He  said  he  was  not  disposed  to  restrict  the  Ge- 
neral Assembly  in  any  manner,  so  as  to  prevent  them  from  filling  the  civil  or  military 
offices  of  the  State,  by  the  appointment  of  the  most  capable  men.  If,  however,  no 
man  was  to  receive  an  appointment  to  an  office,  during  the  period  he  should  be  elected 
a  Legislator,  such  a  restriction  might  induce  citizens,  well  qualified  to  be  chosen  to 
make  laws,  from  accepting  a  seat  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  or  Senate.  For,  al- 
though honorable  men  will  not  often  seek  office,  yet  it  ought  not  to  be  expected  that 
they  should  be  willing  to  disqualify  themselves  from  holding  offices  of  honor,  trust  or 
profit,  for  no  other  reason  than  that  the  people,  without  solicitation,  should  honor  them 
with  their  confidence  to  be  a  member  of  the  General  Assembly,  and  that  they  should 
accept  and  aid  in  making  laws.  By  the  institutions  of  Maryland,  the  Senate  is  elected 
by  electors,  for  five  years,  and  during  that  period  they  cannot  receive  any  other  ap- 
pointment under  the  State.  The  consequence  is,  that  resignations  often  take  place, 
and  one-third  or  one-half  of  the  Senate  have  not  been  elected  by  the  electors  of  the 
people  ;  for,  all  vacancies  in  that  body  are  filled  by  the  Senators  themselves.  He  had 
often  heard  the  exclusion  of  the  Senators  from  office,  during  the  period  of  their  elec- 
tion, complained  of  in  Maryland,  and  he  did  not  wish  to  see  such  restriction  intro- 
duced in  the  Constitution  of  Virginia. 

The  question  being  taken  by  ayes  and  noes,  the  resolution  was  rejected  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Moore,  Beirne,  Madison,  Stanard,  Mercer, 
Henderson,  Cooke,  Pendleton,  Duncan,  Scott,  Macrae,  Tazewell  and  Rose — 14. 

J^oes — Messrs.  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Giles,  Brod- 
nax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Anderson, 
Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  M'Coy,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter, 
Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax, 
Logan,  Venable,  Holladay,  Fitzhugh,  Osborne,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor, 
Donaldson,  Boyd,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Roane,  Taylor 
of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Laidley,  Sum- 
mers, See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Barbour  of  Culpeper, 
Green,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Clay  tor,  Saunders,  Branch, 
Townes,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale, 
Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 81. 
Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke,  moved  the  following: 

"  Resolved,  That  no  incorporation  for  any  ecclesiastical  or  religious  purpose,  shall 
ever  be  granted,  or  have  validity  in  this  Commonwealth." 

The  resolution  gave  rise  to  a  debate  almost  the  counterpart  of  that  which  took  place 
in  Committee.  The  resolution  was  supported  by  the  mover,  on  the  ground  that  re- 
ligious incorporations  tended  to  build  up  religious  establishments,  and  had  produced 
those  establishments  in  miniature  :  that  religion  needed  no  external  aid,  and  was  in- 
jured by  the  alliance  of  wealth,  &c.  &c. 

It  was  opposed  by  Mr.  Marshall,  Mr.  Naylor,  Mr.  Nicholas,  Mr.  Brodnax  and  Mr. 
Stanard,  as  going  a  great  deal  too  far  in  the  extent  of  its  terms  ;  as  depriving  reli- 
gious societies  of  the  means  of  securely  holding  their  own  property ;  as  making  a 
needless  and  unjust  distinction  between  them  and  other  associations;  as  being  utterly 
needless  from  the  light  of  the  age,  and  the  utter  averseness  of  every  American  Le- 
gislature to  do  any  act  tending  to  build  up  religious  establishments  or  confer  exclu- 
sive privileges  on  religious  sects,  &c. 

Mr.  Nicholas  observed,  that  he  agreed  to  a  considerable  extent,  with  the  gentleman 
from  Brooke,  (Mr.  Campbell,)  in  his  views  on  this  subject,  but  he  thought  his  resolu- 
tion went  farther  than  he  could  go  with  him.  He  said,  that  he  had  an  unfeigned 
respect  for  religion,  though  he  feared  he  did  not  possess  as  much  of  it  as  he  ought. 
He  agreed  with  the  gentleman  from  Hampshire,  (Mr.  Naylor.)  that  religion  was 
founded  on  virtue,  and  that  both  combined,  were  essential  to  the  prosperity  of  a  na- 
tion— Government  should  not  give  any  preference  to  one  sect  over  another,  and  the 
true  way  of  managing  sects  was  to  let  them  alone,  so  far  as  the  Government  was 
concerned.    Each  ought  to  be  protected  in  the  undisturbed  exercise  of  their  religion. 

He  would,  if  a  member  of  the  Legislature,  be  wilhng  to  incorporate  societies,  so  as 
to  enable  them  to  hold,  and  protect  their  property  in  their  churches,  and  the  necessary 
appurtenances  thereto ;  but  would  not  consent  to  grant  such  incorporations  for  holding 


DEBATES    OF    THE  COXVENTIOX. 


709 


property  generally.  He  thought  there  were  strong  objections  to  such  a  comprehen- 
sive power.  At  present  a  discretion  was  vested  in  the  Legislatvire  on  this  subject, 
and  they  had  shewn  no  disposition  to  abuse  it.  He  was  disposed,  therefore,  to  leave 
the  subject  as  it  was  placed  by  the  present  Constitution. 

Mr.  Brodnax  was  induced  to  move  by  way  of  amendment,  what  he  had  offered  in 
Committee,  in  relation  to  the  incorporation  of  theological  seminaries,  with  a  proviso 
for  re-modeling  or  revoking  their  charters  at  pleasure.  His  amendment  was  as  fol- 
lows -. 

The  Legislature  shall  have  the  power  of  incorporating  by  law.  trustees  or  direc- 
tors of  any  theological  seminary,  or  other  religious  society,  or  body  of  men  umted 
for  charitable  purposes,  or  the  advancement  of  pietT,"  and  learning,  so  as  to  protect 
them  in  the  enjovment  of  their  property  and  immunities,  in  such  cases,  and  under 
such  resrulations'as  the  Legislature  may  deem  expedient  and  proper.  But  the  Legis- 
lature of  this  State,  during  all  futxire  time,  shall  possess  the  power  to  alter,  re-model, 
or  entirely  repeal  such  charters  or  act  of  incorporation,  whenever  they  shall  deem  it 
expedient.'" 

The  debate  was  terminated  by  a  motion  of  Mr.  Stanard,  that  the  resolution,  toge- 
ther with  the  amendment,  be  indefinitely  postponed. 
This  motion  was  carried  by  ayes  and  noes,  as  follows : 

.%e5— Messrs.  Barbour,  (Pres'ident.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield.  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Dromgoole.  Alexander.  Marshall.  ^Nicholas,  Anderson,  Coffinan^ 
Harrison,  Baldwin,  Johnson.  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Melsou  of  Southamp- 
ton, Trezvant,  Claiborne,  L'rquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable, 
Stanard,  Holladay.  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson.  Osborne,  Powell,  Griggs.  Mason 
of  Frederick,  ]^«aylor,  Donaldson,  George,  MTvIillan,  Campbell  of  "SYashington, 
Byars,  Roane.  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris.  Garnett.  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Alathews, 
Oglesby,  Duncan,  "Laidley.  Summers,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  TazeweU, 
Lovall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor.  Saunders.  Branch.  Townes, 
Cabell,  Martin.  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates,  ^Xeale,  Rose,  Coalter, 
Joynes,  Bayly  and  Perrin — 77. 

Abes — Messrs.  Brodnax,  Goode,  Tyler.  Clopton,  Williamson,  M  Coy,  Baxter, 
Madison.  Cooke.  Boyd,  Pendleton,  See.  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke, 
Wilson,  Macrae,  Gordon  and  Lpshur — 19. 

The  House  then  proceeded  to  the  consideration  of  the  report  of  the 

EXECUTIVE  com:siittee. 

The  first  resolution,  as  amended  in  Commitee  of  the  hole,  was  then  read  as  fol- 
lows : 

'*  Resolzed,  That  the  chief  Executive  omce  of  this  Commonwealth  ought  to  be 
vested  in  a  Governor,  to  be  elected  by  the  General  Assembly  for  three  years,  and  to 
be  ineligible  for  three  years  thereafter.  BQs  term  of  office  shall  commence  on  the 
first  day  of  January  succeedincf  his  election,  or  on  such  other  day  as  the  Legislature 
may  from  time  to  time  designate." 

„  ■  -^I^^^'cer  nioved  to  amend  it,  by  striking  therefi-om  the  words  General  Assem- 
bly," and  inserting  in  lieu  thereof,  the  words,  -  qualified  voters  for  the  most  nume- 
rous branch  of  the  State  Legislature." 

Mr.  Stuart  moved  to  lay  the  resolution  and  amendment  upon  the  table. 

He  said  he  had  come  to  the  Convention  determined  to  give  the  election  of  Gover- 
nor to  the  Legislature;  but  the  question  of  future  appor^onment  of  representation 
had  a  bearing  on  his  final  determination  :  if  no  plan  for  future  apportionment  was  to 
be  permitted,  then  he  should  go  for  giving  the  election  of  Governor  directly  to  the 
people.  "  " 

The  question  of  laying  the  resolution  on  the  table  was  taken,  and  decided  in  the 
negative:  Ayes  47,  >oes  4S. 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  the  amendment  of  ^Nlr.  Mercer,  and  decided  in  the 
affirmative  by  ayes  and  noes,  as  follows : 

.iye^ — Messrs.  Clopton,  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison.  Williamson.  Baldwin, 
M'Coy-  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Madison,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh.  Hender- 
son, Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick.  >avlor.  Donaldson.  Boyd, 
Pendleton,  George,  :NI":Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington.  Bvars.  Clovd.  Chapman, 
Mathews,  Oglesby,  Dimcan.  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridore.  Morgan.  Campbell 
of  Brooke ,_"\Vilson,  Claytor,  Saimders,  Cabell,  31artin,  Stuart^  Gordon.  Thompson 
Bayly  and  L  pshur — .50.  '  ' 

Aoe^-— :Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander.  Goode,  Marshall.  Tyler.  Mcholas 
Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant.  Claiborne,'  Urquhart!  Randolph.  Leigli 
of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane,'  Tavlor  of'  Caroline.  Morris, 
Garnett.  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green.  Tazewell.  Lovall.  Prentis' 
Grigsby.  CampbeU  of  Bedford,  Branch,  Townes,  Pleasants,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale' 
Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes  and  Perrin— 46. 


710 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


The  question  then  recurring  on  the  amendment  of  the  Committee,  as  amended  on 
motion  of  Mr.  Mercer, 

Mr.  Doddridge  demanded  the  ayes  and  noes,  and  they  v/ere  taken  accordingly  as 
follows : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Clopton,  Anderson,  CofFman,  Harrison,  Williamson, Baldwin, M'Coy, 
Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Madison,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Os- 
borne, Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pen- 
dleton, George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Ma- 
thews, Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of 
Brooke,  Wilson,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Gordon,  Thompson, 
Bayly  and  Upshur — 50. 

JVoes — Messrs.  Barbour  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  P4arshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh 
of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris, 
Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis, 
Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Branch,  Townes,  Pleasants,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale, 
Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes  and  Perrin — 46. 

The  question,  finally,  recurring  on  the  resolution  as  thus  amended, 

Mr.  Doddridge  again  demanded  the  aj^es  and  noes.  They  were  taken  and  stood  as 
follows  :  Ayes  50,  Noes  46.    [Vote  same  as  above.] 

The  second  resolution  was  then  read  as  follows  : 

"  Resolved,  That  there  ought  to  be  appointed  a  Lieutenant-Governor  of  this  Com- 
monwealth, to  be  elected  in  the  same  manner,  at  the  same  time,  and  for  the  same 
term  with  the  Governor." 

The  Committee's  amendment  was  agreed  to  :  Ayes  50. 

Mr.  Scott  now  moved  to  strike  out  the  whole  resolution  as  amended,  and  to  sub- 
stitute the  following: 

"  An  Executive  Council,  consisting  of  three  members,  shall  be  chosen  by  joint 
vote  of  both  Houses  of  Assembly,  to  remain  in  ofiice  three  years.  In  case  of  the 
death,  inability,  or  absence  of  the  Governor  from  the  Government,  the  eldest  member 
of  the  Council  shall  act  as  Governor.  Tvv^o  members  shall  be  sufficient  to  form  a 
quorum.  Their  proceedings  shall  be  entered  of  record,  and  signed  by  the  members 
present,  (to  any  part  whereof  any  member  may  enter  his  dissent,)  and  lay  it  before 
the  General  Assembly  when  called  for  by  them.  This  Council  may  appoint  their  . 
own  Clerk,  who  shall  have  a  salary  settled  by  law,  and  shall  take  an  oath  of  secrecy 
in  such  matters  as  he  shall  be  directed  by  the  Board  to  conceal.  At  the  end  of  one 
year  from  their  first  appointment,  one  Councillor,  to  be  designated  by  lot,  shall  go  out 
of  office,  and  the  vacancy  shall  be  supplied  by  a  new  election.  At  the  end  of  the 
second  year,  another  Councillor,  to  be  designated  in  hke  manner,  shall  go  out  of  of- 
fice, and  the  vacancy  be  supplied  by  a  new  election  :  and  this  rotation  shall  be  con- 
tinued in  due  order  annually.  The  Executive  Council  shall  stand  in  the  same  rela- 
tion to  the  Governor,  as  the  Council  under  the  existing  Constitution,  {except  that  they 
shall  advise  merely,  and  7iot  controul  him.) 

Mr.  Scott  very  briefly  stated  the  leading  principles  of  the  amendment. 

Mr.  Leigh  opposed  its  adoption.  He  made  some  remarks  on  the  very  extraordi- 
nary situation  of  the  Convention,  when  the  members  of  a  single  district  (that  of  Al- 
bemarle) held  the  fate  of  every  measure  in  their  hands,  and  by  inclining  to  one  side  or 
the  other  of  the  House,  could  give  an  affirmative  or  negative  vote  of  the  Convention 
at  their  pleasure.  Yet,  gentlemen  seemed  just  as  willing  to  recommend  a  Constitu- 
tion, if  its  provisions  were  carried  by  a  m.ajority  of  one,  as  if  the  whole  body  had 
voted  for  them.  He  expressed  his  astonishment,  that  gentlemen  who  agreed  with  him 
and  his  friends,  in  voting  against  the  white  basis,  should  so  far  play  into  the  hands  of 
their  adversaries  on  that  great  question,  as  to  enable  them  to  take  all  other  measures 
they  desired,  and  none  of  which  they  could  carry  by  their  own  unaided  strength.  He 
contended,  that  the  argument  for  such  a  Council  as  Mr.  Scott  proposed,  was,  if  not 
wholly  changed,  greatly  impaired  by  the  vote  which  had  given  the  election  of  Go- 
vernor to  the  people.  Such  a  Council  would  only  embroil  the  proceedings  of  the 
Executive.  He  should  have  hoped  his  friend  from  Fauquier  would  have  been  the  last 
man  to  propose  a  mere  advisory  Council,  after  that  vote  had  so  materially  changed 
the  state  of  things.  He  must,  with  whatever  hesitation  or  reluctance,  vote  against 
the  amendment. 

Mr.  Nicholas  moved  to  amend  the  amendment,  by  striking  therefrom  the  words 
"  except  that  they  shall  have  power  to  advise  merely,  and  not  to  controul  him." 

Mr.  Scott  declaring,  that  he  would  be  the  last  man  to  break  the  ranks  that  were 
opposed  to  the  white  basis,  consented,  though  with  an  expression  of  reluctance,  to 
give  up  the  veto,  (the  words  in  Italics,)  and  accept  of  Mr.  Nicholas's  amendment  as 
a  modification. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


711 


Mr.  Claytor  demanded  a  division  of  the  question,  on  striking  out  and  inserting,  and 
it  was  divided  accordingly. 

And  the  question  being  on  the  motion  to  strike  cut  the  2d  resolution,  as  amended 
by  the  Committee  of  the  \Vhole, 

Mr.  Stuart,  in  reply  to  Mr.  Leigh's  expression  of  surprise  at  the  votes  of  gentle- 
men on  minor  questions,  who  were  opposed  to  the  white  basis,  expressed  in  turn  his 
surprise,  that  no  vote  could  be  given .  without  incurring  the  imputation  of  drilling. 
The  srentleman  had  not,  indeed, ^et  pointed  out  who  was  the  Sergeant,  nor  had  he 
particularised  the  troops.  Mr.  S.  vindicated  the  vote  he  had  given  to  put  the  election 
of  Governor  into  the  hands  of  tiie  people.  He  had  been  driven  into  that  measure, 
because  all  efforts  to  crive  the  people" tlieir  due  representation  in  the  Legislature,  had 
been  steadily  resisted :  and  unless  that  was  done,  he  had  told  gentlemen  he  should 
never  vote  to  ffive  the  Legislature  the  election  of  Governor.  The  gentleman  had  no 
rio-ht  to  expect,  that  the  white  basis  question  was  to  carry  all  other  questions  along 
with  it.  He  spoke  this,  not  in  his  own  defence,  for  he  was  no  deserter  from  that  gen- 
tleman's side,  but  he  spoke  in  behalf  of  others,  who  had  given  independent  votes. 
All  who  had  agreed  with  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  on  the  question  of  the 
basis,  were  not  therefore  bound  to  vote  witii  him  on  every  point  in  the  whole  Consti- 
tution. Many  wiio  advocated  a  mixed  basis,  had  nevertheless  always  been  in  favour 
of  the  election  of  Governor  by  the  people. 

Mr.  Nicholas  said,  that  the  question  was  not  varied  by  having  been  divided :  for,  as 
the  provisions  in  the  resolution  were  incompatible  with  those  in  the  amendment  of 
Mr.  Scott,  all  who  were  in  favour  of  the  latter,  would  of  course  vote  to  strike  out. 
The  election  of  a  Lieutenant-Governor  by  the  people,  varied  the  question  as  to  the 
Council.  All  who  wished  for  a  Council,  would  be  for  striking  out  that  feature  of 
course.  Mr.  N.  then  went  into  a  comparison  of  the  expense  of  the  two  plans,  and 
expressed  his  decided  preference  for  tliat  of  Mr.  Scott. 

Mr.  Mercer  contended,  that  the  present  motion  should  be  considered  as  in  effect  a 
motion  to  strike  out  and  insert,  and  as  involving,  in  fact,  a  comparison  betvreen  the 
two  plans  proposed.  Much  had  been  said  about  tactics  and  management,  but  he  saw 
no  evidence  of  it.  He  claimed  no  power  over  the  opinions  or  course  of  others,  nor 
did  he  recognize  any  such  right  as  existed  in  any  one  over  his  own.  He  was  for  abol- 
ishingr  the  CouncU  altogether,  and  for  electing  the  Grovemor  by  the  people.  He  was 
of  course  opposed  to  striking  out. 

Mr.  Tyler  said  he  had,  after  much  reflection,  brought  himself  to  vote  in  Committee 
of  the  Whole,  to  abolish  the  Executive  Council.  He  had  not  at  that  time  explained 
his  motives,  behevin?  he  was  able  satisfactorily  to  account  for  his  course  to  his  own 
constituents.  But  when  he  had  given  that  vote,  it  was  on  the  hypothesis  tliat  the 
Governor  was  to  be  elected  by  the  Legislature.  He  saw  no  danger  attending  the 
plan — he  had  apprehended  nothing  from  the  effect  of  patronage  in  the  hands  of  such 
an  Executive.  But,  the  moment  the  election  of  Governor  was  to  be  thro'VNTi  into  the 
hands  of  the  people,  he  was  led  to  a  very  different  course.  Under  such  circumstan- 
ces, he  was  opposed  to  increasing,  by  one  iota,  the  power  and  influence  of  that  officer. 
If  there  was  the  slightest  infusion  of  what  had  been  denominated,  by  an  eloquent 
member  of  this  body,  ••'  a  spice  of  Zvlonarchy,"  into  the  nature  of  the  Governor's 
office,  his  election  would  cause  violent  throes  and  convulsions  in  the  State.  -  The 
plan  became  an  object  worth  striving  for — competitors  would  start  up  in  all  parts  of  the 
Commonwealth,  and  great  pohtical  excitement  must  be  the  unavoidable  consequence. 

]VIr.  Leigh  would  add  one  word  more  on  the  subject  of  tlie  Council,  and  he  hoped 
it  would  be  the  last  he  should  have  to  utter  there  on  tliat  subject.  When  he  had  first 
begun  to  examine  the  Constitution  of  Virginia,  he  had  had  great  objections  aorainst 
tills  feature  of  it  ;  but,  more  experience  had  convinced  him,  that  instead  of  bemo:  in 
practice  pernicious,  it  was  a  most  valuable  provision  of  political  sagacity.  It  was  this 
experience  which  had  overcome  his  early  prepossessions,  and  the  Council  had  been 
growing  on  his  esteem  to  the  present  day.  'He  should  not  say  any  more  in  favour  of 
it — he  had  already  said  all  he  knew,  and  all  that  he  was  able  to  say  of  it,  when  in 
Committee  of  the  Whole.  After  having  bestowed  long,  he  would  not  say  profound 
reflection,  but  certainly  long  and  very  anxious  reflection  upon  the  subject',  he  was  at 
a  loss  to  imagine  how  the  Governor  was  to  get  along  without  a  Council.  He  sup- 
posed he  was  to  be  edded  by  Heads  of  Departments,  ehgibie  by  others,  and  indepen- 
dent of  tlie  Executive.  He  asked  gentlemen  to  observe  the  consequence  that  must 
follow,  after  the  Council  should  have  been  abolished,  and  the  Executive  power  should 
be  exercised  by  the  Governor  alone.  There  must  be  revision,  imjnediately.  of  almost 
every  law  in  the  Code — all  the  laws  passed  since  the  revolution,  would  have  to  be 
revised.  The  magnitude  and  difficulty  of  such  a  task,  were  obvious  to  all.  If  there 
were  to  be  Departments,  then,  during  the  first  year  after  any  Governor  should  have 
been  elected,  though  he  micfht  be  called  (Governor  of  the  State,  the  mind  of  a  Gover- 
nor would  not  be  there.  The  moment  he  got  into  office. "the  first  task  he  must  per- 
form, would  be  to  muster  all  the  papers  pertaining  to  the  office,  and  how  long  did 


712 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


gentlemen  suppose  it  would  take  any  man  to  get  through  with  such  a  work  as  that  ? 
The  worthy  gentleman  from  Goochland,  (Mr.  Pleasants,)  knew  the  truth  of  this  re- 
presentation. But,  he  was  to  have  Departments  to  help  him.  There  was  to  be  a  Se- 
cretary of  State,  a  Secretary  of  the  Treasury — and  what  others.^  A  Secretary  of  the 
Navy,  he  presumed;  and  a  Secretary  of  the  Board  of  Works,  or  of  Internal  Im- 
provements, probably.  And  gentlemen  were  willing  to  create  all  these,  for  the  sake 
of  getting  rid  of  the  Council.  In  reply  to  Mr.  Tyler,  he  said,  that  he  had  observed, 
to  his  intinite  surprise,  that  that  gentleman  did  vote  in  Committee  of  the  Whole  for 
the  abolition  of  the  Council.  He  was  never  more  surprised  at  any  thing,  after  the 
experience  that  gentleman  must  have  had  upon  the  subject.  There  was  one  thing 
attending  the  existing  Council,  which  was  worthy  of  a  thought — he  meant  no  dis- 
respect to  any  gentleman,  who  had  ever  filled  the  office  of  Governor,  when  he  made 
the  remark — it  was  this,  that  if  the  Governor  happened  to  be  of  mind  superior  in 
vigour  to  that  of  his  Council,  his  mind  would  of  course  practically  direct  every  thing ; 
but,  if  it  should  so  happen,  that  there  were  in  the  Council  men  greatly  his  superiors, 
then  the  strongest  mind  in  the  Council  would  govern.  This  was  the  inevitable  course 
of  things.  Now,  in  a  Council  of  eight  members,  there  was  a  greater  chance  of  having 
some  able  mind  in  the  Executive  office — and  be  the  strength  of  that  mind  what  it 
would,  the  office  gave  it  power  for  good  only,  and  none  whatever  for  evil. 
Mr.  Claytor  withdrew  his  call  for  a  division  of  the  question. 

And  the  question  being  then  put  on  striking  out,  the  second  resolution  of  the  Exec- 
utive Committee,  and  inserting  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Scott,  it  was  taken  by  ayes 
and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of 
Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline, 
Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Pren- 
tis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale, 
Rose,  Coalter,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 48. 

JVoes — Messrs.  Clopton,  Anderson,  Coffinan, Harrison, Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy, 
Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke, 
Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George, 
M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby, 
Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson, 
Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Stuart,  Thompson,  Joynes  and  Bay- 
ly-48. 

So  the  motion  was  lost. 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  agreeing  to  the  second  resolution  as  amended  by 
the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  and  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Clopton,  Anderson,  Cofiiman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  M'Coy,  Moore, 
Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborrre,  Cooke,  Powell, 
Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor.  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan, 
Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathev/s,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laid- 
ley, Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of 
Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Stuart,  Thompson  Joynes  and  Bayly — 47. 

JVoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of 
Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Pvoane,  Taylor  of  Caroline, 
Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall, 
Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale, 
Rose,  Coalter,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 48. 

So  the  Convention  refused  to  agree  to  the  resolution. 

The  House  then  adjourned. 


TUESDAY,  December  22,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Kerr  of  the  Baptist  Church. 

The  question  being  on  agreeing  to  that  amendment  reported  by  the  Committee  of 
the  Whole  which  proposes  to  strike  out  the  word  "  Resolved"  from  the  fifth  resolution 
of  the  Executive  Committee,  (which  resolution  reads  as  follows,  viz  :) 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Sheriffs  of  the  diffijrent  counties  in  the  Commonwealth  shall 
hereafter  be  elected  by  the  voters  qualified  to  vote  for  the  most  numerous  branch  of 
the  Legislature." 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONTENTION. 


713 


Mr.  Trezvant  asked  for  the  ayes  and  noes;  they  were  ordered  by  the  House,  and 
being  taken,  slood  as  follows  : 

.4 (/e5— Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Bfodnax,  Drouigoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyier,  Isicho  as, 
Cloptoa,  Baldwin,  Joiiason.  Miller,  Mason  or' Southampton,  Trezvant.  Claiborne,  L  r- 
qunart,  Randulph,  Leigh  of  Hahlax,  Logan,  \'enable,  Madison,  H>  liaaay.  Merger, 
i'ltzhugh,  Griggs,  Pendleton,  Roane,  Tay  lor  of  Caroline,  Mc.rris,  Garnett,  Clo\  d, 
Cnapaian,  Mathews,  Barbour  of  CuJpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Loyall,  Prentis, 
Gnasby,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Brancn,  Townes,  Martin,  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Massie, 
Bales,  JVeale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Upsliur  and  Perrin — 57. 

.Voes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Corfiuan,  Harrison,  Williamson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne, 
Smith,  Baxter,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Mason  of  Frederick,  JNaylor, 
Donaldson,  Boyd,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Oglesby, 
Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson, 
Ciaytor,  Saunders.  Cabell,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Joynes  and  Bayly—&7. 

So  the  House  rejected  the  fifth  resolution  of  the  Executive  Committee. 

They  also  concurred  in  the  amendment  which  strikes  out  the  word  '■  Resolved," 
from  the  following  (sixth)  resolution,  viz : 

Resolved,  Thai  the  commissioned  ofiicers  of  militia  coropanies  be  nominated  to  the 
Executive  by  a  majority  of  their  respective  companies." 

The  House  also  agreed  v.-ith  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  in  amending  the  seventh 
resolution,  which  reads  as  follows  : 

Resoired,  That  the  field  ofiicers  of  regiments  be  nominated  to  the  Executive  by  a 
majority  of  the  commissioned  officers  of  their  respective  regiments."  By  striking  ont 
all  after  the  word  Resolved,"  and  inserting  in  lieu  thereot  the  following,  viz  :  "  That 
the  mode  of  appointing  mihtia  officers  ought  to  be  provided  lor  by  law:  Provided,  ne- 
vertheless, that  no  officer  below  the  grade  of  a  Brigadier  General  should  be  appointed 
by  the  General  Assembly." 

The  House  further  agreed  to  strike  out  the  word  "  Resolved"  from  the  eighth  resO' 
lution,  which  WiS  in  the  words  following,  viz  : 

"  Resolved,  That  no  pardon  shall  be  granted  in  any  case,  until  after  conviction  or 
judgment." 

The  following  additions  having  been  reported  by  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  to 
the  report  of  the  Executive  Committee  : 

"  Si:cT.  9.  The  Governor  sh;ili  have  power  to  nominate,  and  by  and  with  the  ad- 
vice and  consent  of  the  Senate,  appoint  Judges  of  the  Supreme  Court,  or  Court  of 
Final  Jurisdiction,  and  Judges  of  such  Inferior  Courts  as  may  from  time  to  time  be 
established  by  law,  all  railitia  officers  from  the  rank  of  Colonel  inclusive,  the  Trea- 
surer, Auditor  of  Public  Accounts,  Register  of  the  Land  Office,  and  Attorney  Gene- 
ral. The  Legislature  may  by  law  vest  the  appointment  of  all  other  officers  of  the 
Common wealTh,  whose  appointments  are  not  herein  otherwise  provided  for,  in  the 
Governor,  with  the  advice  and  consent  of  the  Senate,  or  in  the  Courts  ol' Law, 

"  Sect.  10.  The  Governor  shall  have  power  to  fiJl  up  all  vacancies  that  may  hap- 
pen during  the  recess  of  the  Senate,  by  granting  commissions,  which  shall  expire  at 
the  end  ot  tlie  next  session  of  that  body. 

Sect.  11.  The  Governor  shall  have  power  to  require  in  writing  the  opinion  of 
the  Lieutenant  Governor,  and  ol' the  Attorney  General,  upon  all  matters  appertaining 
to  the  duties  of  his  office." 

Mr.  Claiborne  moved  to  strike  out  all  in  the  above  resolutions  which  referred  to  a 
Lieuten;ait  Governor,  (the  House  having  yesterday  stricken  out  the  resolution  which 
provides  for  such  an  officer.) 

But  before  any  determination  was  had  on  this  motion,  the  resolutions  were,  at  the 
motion  of  Mr.  Upshur,  laid  for  the  present  upon  the  table. 

The  Ci)nvention  now  returned  to  the  consideration  of  the  third  resolution  of  the 
Executive  Committee,  which  reads  as  follows,  viz: 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Executive  Council,  as  at  present  organized,  ought  to  be  aboI= 
ished,  and  that  it  is  inexpedient  to  provide  any  other  Executive  Council." 

Mr.  Scott  moved  to  lay  the  resolution  upon  the  table. 

The  motion  was  opposed  by  Mr.  Powell,  Mr.  Henderson,  and  Mr.  Fitzhugh ;  the 
latter  gentleman  stating  that  if  it  did  not  carry,  he  should  offer  the  following  amend- 
ment : 

"  There  ought  to  be  appointed  a  Secretary  of  State,  and  an  Attorney  General,  who, 
besides  being  the  Constitutional  advisers  of  the  Governor,  shall  discharge  such  other 
duties,  as  ma}'  be  assigned  them  hy  the  Legislature." 

Mr.  Scott  insisted  on  his  motion,  being  persuaded  that  a  majority  of  the  House  were 
in  favor  of  having  a  Council  in  some  form  :  and  if  those  who  were  for  an  Advisory 
Council,  would  unite  with  those  who  preferred  a  veto  on  the  Governor,  they  could 
carry  a  Council  that  wotxld  be  better  than  none.    Alter  some  farther  conversation  b«- 

90 


714 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


tvveen  Messrs.  Scott,  Powell,  Fitzliugli  and  Doddridge,  the  question  on  laying  the  re- 
solution upon  the  table,  was  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Droingoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Tyler,  Nicholas,  Johnson, 
Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax, 
Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Plolladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris, 
Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis, 
Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter, 
Joynes,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 47. 

JVoes — Messrs.  Marshall,  Clopton,  Anderson,  Coffinan,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Bald- 
win, M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson, 
Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pen- 
dleton, George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Ma- 
thews, Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of 
Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart, 
Thompson  and  Bayly — 4.9. 

So  the  House  refused  to  lay  the  resolution  upon  the  table. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  now  moved  to  amend  the  resolution  by  striking  out  the  words  "  and 
that  it  is  inexpedient  to  provide  any  other  Executive  Council,"  and  insert  as  follows  : 
There  ought  to  be  appointed  a  Secretary  of  State,  and  an  Attorney  General,  who, 
besides  being  the  Constitutional  advisers  of  the  Governor,  shall  discharge  such  other 
duties  as  may  be  assigned  them  by  the  Legislature." 

Mr.  Scott  demanded  a  division  of  the  question  on  striking  out  and  inserting;  and  it 
was  thereupon  divided  accordingly  :  and  being  first  put  on  striking  out, 

Mr.  Nicholas  said,  that  his  former  prediction  was  now  verified;  for  a  plan  was  pro- 
posed, which,  while  it  was  not  so  efficient  as  that  of  the  existing  Council,  was  equally, 
if  not  more  expensive.  The  Attorney  General  was  at  present  the  Constitutional  ad- 
viser of  the  Governor,  on  all  law  questions:  if  he  was  to  do  more  than  this,  he  must 
be  paid  for  it;  and  besides,  his  official  duties  occupied  his  whole  time.  As  to  the  Se- 
cretary of  State,  he  could  not  speak  with  certainty,  as  he  did  not  know  what  his  func- 
tions were  to  be.  If  he  was  to  be  a  mere  subordinate  of  the  Governor,  a  sort  of  clerk, 
whom  the  Governor  could  command,  he  would  be  the  last  person  fit  to  be  entrusted 
with  the  duty  of  being  his  official  adviser. 

This  officer  must  have  a  salary ;  and  here  was  more  expense  to  be  encountered. 
Besides,  there  must  be  a  Lieutenant  Governor.  What  was  to  be  done  should  the 
Governor  die  or  be  sick  .''  Gentlemen  would  have  that  case  provided  for  by  the  Legisla- 
ture :  Here,  then,  was  to  be  an  organic  law,  which  provided  no  certain  means  of  car- 
rying on  the  Government.  The  Constitution  was  to  omit,  altogether,  an  officer,  es- 
sential to  the  continuance  of  any  Government  at  all.  When  was  the  Legislature  to 
make  this  provision.?  When  the  emergency  happened  the  Legislature  might  not  be 
in  session.  They  must  at  last  have  a  Lieutenant  Governor;  and  he  must  have  a  salary, 
and  no  small  one. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  declined  arguing  a  question,  which  had  been  already  so  fully  discussed. 
As  to  the  duties  of  the  Secretary  of  State,  it  was  sufficient  to  say,  that  he  meant  him  to 
do  the  duty  of  the  present  eight  Councillors.  And  in  relation  to  filling  the  place  of 
the  Governor,  in  case  of  his  death  or  inability,  that  duty  might  be  devolved,  on  either 
the  President  of  the  Senate,  or  the  Speaker  of  the  House  of  Delegates;  or  the  Secre- 
tary of  State  might  act  as  Lieutenant  Governor,  pro  Lem. 

Mr.  Summers  said,  that  this  feature  of  the  Constitution  had  been  sustained,  with 
an  earnestness  of  perseverance  worthy  of  a  better  object.  Since  the  pleasure  of  this 
body  had  been  manifested  to  be,  to  look  to  the  people,  as  the  source  of  the  Executive 
authority,  this  effi^rt  had  been  renewed  with  fresh  vigour.  But,  he  begged  gentle- 
men to  recollect,  that  if  a  Governor,  appointed  by  the  Legislature,  could  be  entrusted 
without  a  controlling  Council  over  him,  a  Governor,  coming  directly  from  the  bosom 
of  the  people,  might  surely  be.  The  change,  in  this  respect,  so  far  from  furnishing  an 
argument  for  retaining,  was  the  strongest  argument  for  abolishing,  the  Council  alto- 
gether. 

In  reply  to  the  argument  that  a  Council  was  indispensable  to  a  new  Governor,  un- 
acquainted with  the  details  of  office,  he  quoted  the  example  of  the  General  Govern- 
ment, and  referred  especially  to  the  present  Executive,  who  had  no  Council  around 
him  that  had  been  for  years  in  their  places  to  instruct  him,  yet  whose  administration 
was  proceeding  with  alacrity  and  with  the  general  satisfaction  and  confidence  of  the 
people.  It  had  not  been  found  necessary  to  have  a  permanent  Council  to  teach  the 
incoming  President  his  duty  ;  and  yet  that  was  a  far  more  arduous  and  extensive  duty 
than  that  of  a  Governor  of  Virginia.  Experience,  then,  on  which  gentlemen  relied 
so  absolutely  as  a  guide,  was  here  all  against  them  :  and  went  to  shew  there  was  not 
the  least  necessity  for  this  incubus  upon  the  State.  The  proposed  Council  would  retain 
the  present  services  of  the  Attorney  General,  to  which,  of  course,  gentlemen  would 
not  object :  and  it  gave  the  Governor  an  additional  officer  to  do  the  duties  now  per- 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


715 


formed  by  the  eiglit  Councillors  and  their  Clerk.  If  the  Governor  needed  still  more 
light,  the  Commonwealth  was  open  to  him :  all  the  intelligence  of  the  State  could  be 
consulted  :  and  if  that  were  too  little,  after  all,  as  a  last  resort,  Shockce  Hill  remained 
ready  to  direct  his  course,  as  he  presumed  it  had  done  heretofore. 

Mr.  Alexander  said,  that  he  found  himself  compelled  to  change,  on  this  occasion, 
the  vote  he  had  given  when  this  subject  was  before  under  consideration.  Through 
all  the  course  of  his  Legislative  experience,  he  must  be  permitted  to  say  that  he  had 
Rever  witnessed  such  proceedings  as  had  marked  this  body,  especially  during  the  last 
two  days.  He  firmly  believed  that  no  political  body  had  ever  done  more  to  destroy 
the  principles  of  free  Government  than  this  Convention.  (Here  Mr.  Alexander  was 
reminded  by  the  Chair  that  it  was  not  in  order  to  reflect  upon  the  course  pursued  by 
the  body.)  Mr.  A.  said  he  meant  no  injurious  reflection;  but  what,  said  he,  do  we 
find.?  On  one  day  propositions  that  have  been  maturely  considered,  are  deliberately 
<3ecided  on  ;  and  the  very  next  day  the  decision  is  wholly  reversed.  Yet  it  was  said 
there  were  no  tactics — no  management — no  manoeuvre.  He  had  come  to  the  Con- 
vention not  for  the  purpose  of  acting  with  any  party,  or  advancing  any  mere  party  in- 
terests ;  he  had  come  to  be  governed  by  what  was  wise  and  just,  to  make  a  Constitu- 
tion that  would  prove  acceptable  to  the  people  by  its  own  merits.  With  the  gentle- 
man from  Loudoun,  he  could  say,  if  there  were  any  objects  which  he  had  come  to  ob- 
tain in  preference  to  others,  they  v/ere  these  two — to  continue  the  election  of  Gover- 
nor as  it  was  provided  for  by  the  existing  Constitution,  and  to  abolish  the  Executive 
Council.  But  since  it  had  been  determined  that  the  Governor  was  to  be  elected  by 
the  people,  he  felt  it  his  duty  to  resort  to  every  means  of  counteracting  an  abuse  of 
Executive  power.  He  had  thought  that  while  the  general  provisions  of  the  Consti- 
tution exhibited  the  wisdom  of  their  forefathers,  in  distributing  power  so  as  to  render 
it  capable  of  effecting  good  only,  and  not  evil,  that  in  the  very  difiicult  problem  of  an 
Executive,  they  had  partially  failed.  He  had  wished  for  an  Executive  that  could  do 
^o  more  than  fulfil  the  legislative  will  and  further  the  legitimate  ends  of  the  Consti- 
tution, and  thought  that  such  a  Governor  needed  no  Council  to  control  him,  but 
should  be  left  to  his  naked  responsibihty.  But  now  a  new  aspect  was  given  to  the 
^guestion. 

There  was  a  remark  made  by  one  of  the  wisest  of  statesmen,  which  had  always 
impressed  him  with  great  force.  When  that  gentleman  was  asked  how  it  happened 
that  in  the  early  formation  of  the  Federal  Government,  gentlemen  from  the  South 
<5btained  such  an  undue  degree  of  influence,  he  replied  that  there  was  no  secret  in 
the  matter  nor  any  mj^stery  about  it :  the  solution  was  easy :  the  Southern  members, 
generally,  had  eome  to  that  Convention  acting  on  virtuous  principles,  and  that  so 
iong  as  that  continued  to  be  the  case,  they  preserved  a  moral  force  and  power,  which 
was  strongly  felt ;  but  that  it  would  he  lost,  so  soon  as  they  cam.e  to  act  on  local  and 
selfish  considerations,  regarding  only  the  geographical  lines,  which  separated  them 
from  others.  The  trutii  and  wisdom  of  his  remark,  had  for  some  time  been  verified 
by  the  state  of  things,  in  the  General  Government ;  and  it  seemed  likel}',  in  a  short 
time,  to  be  verified  by  the  condition  of  their  own  State. 

Mr.  A.  said,  he  had  not  risen  to  make  a  speech;  but  merely  to  explain  the  princi- 
ples on  which  he  should  act,  and  with  a  view  to  justif}^  himself  to  the  House  and  to 
his  constituents,  who  knew  the  sentiments  with  which  he  had  left  them. 

Mr.  Mercer,  after  expressing  his  great  respect  for  the  gentleman  who  had  just  taken 
his  seat,  regretted  that  he  should  have  insinuated  that  any  management  or  tactics  had 
been  resorted  to  in  obtaining  the  vote  of  yesterday  giving  the  election  of  Governor 
to  the  people  :  nothing  was  easier  than  to  account  for  that  vote.  The  parties  at  first 
had  been  nearly  equally  divided  in  sentiment  on  that  point :  but  some  changes  had 
taken  place  in  the  body  by  the  resignation  of  members,  among  these  his  venerable 
colleague,  (the  cause  of  v/hose  withdrawal  from  that  body,  he  felt  assured  every  mem- 
ber of  it  united  with  him  in  deploring)  and  their  successors  in  some  cases  differed  in 
their  views. 

Mr.  M.  then  referred  to  the  doctrines  of  the  Federalist,  as  to  placing  the  Legislative 
and  Executive  bodies  on  the  same  foundation,  and  keeping  them  independent  of  each 
•other  in  their  own  sphere.  He  was  surprised  that  no  gentleman  had  availed  himself 
of  the  masterly  argument  on  the  subject  of  a  plural  Executive  which  was  contained 
in  the  70th  number  of  Publius :  it  was  perfectly  conclusive,  and  had  led  to  the  aboli- 
tion of  an  Executive  Council  in  New  York,  by  an  almost  unanimous  vote.  It  was 
easy  to  explain  the  vote  of  5"esterday — all  the  propositions  which  had  been  considered 
were  in  some  degree  dependant  propositions;  and  the  remark  of  the  gentleman  from 
Norfolk,  (Mr.  Tazewell,)  who  never  uttered  a  thought  that  had  not  great  weight,  was 
perfectly  correct,  when  he  had  insisted  on  this  very  ground,  that  the  whole  of  those 
propositions  should  be  placed  within  the  view  of  the  Committee  at  the  same  time.  If 
any  machinery  had  been  employed  in  effecting  the  vote  in  reference  to  the  election 
of  Governor,  he  was  ignorant  of  it.  He  never  had  (he  declared  it  before  Heaven,) 
voted  at  any  time  with  a  view  to  make  any  proposition  odious  to  its  supporters.  When 


716 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONTENTION. 


he  was  pressed  to  vote  in  Congress  for  adding  the  molasses  tax  to  the  tariff,  with  a 
view  to  make  the  bill  odious  to  New  England,  he  had  utterly  refused  to  do  so  :  and 
such  should  ever  be  his  course. 

Mr.  Randolph  said,  that  for  some  time  past,  he  had  every  day  lieccme  more  and 
more  convinced,  tliat,  from  whatever  cause,  this  body  was  utterly  incapacitated  for 
the  performance  of  the  duty,  which  had  been  devolved  upon  it  by  the  people.  1  have 
seen,  said  Mr.  R.  with  pain  and  grief,  that  our  proceedings  are — in  my  view — discre- 
ditable to  ourselves,  and  injurious  to  the  best  interests  of  the  Commonv/ealth.  [Here 
the  Chair  reminded  Mr.  R.,  that  it  was  a  violation  of  order  to  make  any  reflections 
on  the  proceedings  of  the  body.]  Mr.  R.  resumed.  I  do  not  reflect  upon  the  body  : 
I  have  all  proper  respect  for  it:  but  I  will  take  leave  to  say — (under  the  correction, 
always,  of  the  Chair,  and  of  the  House) — that  if  the  various  schemes  and  projects — - 
(I  speak  of  them  as  in  their  present  inchoate  state) — which  have  been  brought  for- 
ward in  this  Assembly,  and  there  are  more,  I  believe,  now  in  embryo,  shall  be  finally 
resolved  upon — a  deeper  wound  will  have  been  inflicted  on  the  cause  and  principles 
of  free  Government,  than  has  been  given  to  that  cause  and  those  principles  smce  the 
days  of  the  French  National  Convention.  I  say  it  deliberately.  J  was  in  hopes  that 
before  now  some  gentleman  would  have  moved  an  adjournment  sine  die.  Sir,  what 
have  we  seen  What  a  mass  of  projects  has  been  offered — considered — rejected — - 
re-considered — re-adopted,  and  then  scouted.  If  you  had  gone  through  the  Com- 
monwealth, parish  by  parish,  and  taken  the  proposals  of  every  old-field  school,  you 
could  not  have  collected  such  a  heterogeneous  mass — such  a  monstrous  farrago,  as  we 
see  gravely  proposed  to  us,  by  those,  who,  if  they  are  statesmen,  should  better  have 
digested  their  own  thoughts,  and  not  presented  them,  in  their  crude,  undigested  state, 
for  our  adoption.  1  thought  it  right  to  say  thus  much  by  way  of  giving  the  right  hand 
of  fellowship  to  my  old  friend  and  fellow-labourer  from  Mecklenburg,  (Mr.  Alexan- 
der.) Sir,  we  are  daily  losing  the  confidence  of  the  people  :  and  deservedly  losing  it. 
What  did  we  hear  about  the  shocking  anomaly  of  the  County  Courts  filhng  their  own 
vacancies When  we  allow  two  of  our  members  to  return  a  third — and  then  a  fourth — 
and  then  a  fifth — till  not  a  shred  will  be  left  of  the  body  chosen  by  the  people  :  we 
shall  become  a  self-created  Assembly,  which  neither  possesses,  nor  has  a  right  to 
challenge  the  confidence  of  the  people.  In  every  respect  in  which  I  look  at  the  cha- 
racter and  composition  of  this  bodj',  it  is  obvious,  the  people  cannot  confide  in  it.  I 
declare  it  openly :  and  the  sooner  we  return  to  those  who  sent  us,  re  infectu,  the  bet- 
ter. I  will  agree,  before  we  take  such  a  step,  to  remedy  those  evils  which  are  most 
complained  of.  I  will  consent  to  reduce  the  number  of  the  House  of  Delegates  one- 
half,  and  let  each  county  send  one  Delegate,  instead  of  two.  I  will  consent  to  re- 
duce the  Executive  Council  to  half  its  present  number.  I  will  vote  to  relieve  the 
Commonwealth  from  a  burden,  by  removing  unworthy,  slothful,  and  incapable  Judges 
from  their  seats.  This  will  satisfy  the  public.  But,  going  on  as  we  do,  it  is  impossi- 
ble— with  this  lean,  staggering,  rickety  majority — tunjbling  from  side  to  side,  ever  to 
concoct  any  thing  which  will  commend  itself  to  the  good  sense  of  the  good  people 
of  this  Commonw^ealth. 

The  question  on  striking  out  was  now  put,  and  carried  without  a  count. 

So  the  House  struck  out  the  words,  "  it  is  inexpedient  to  provide  any  other  Execu- 
tive Council." 

The  question  then  recurring  on  Mr.  Fitzhugh's  amendment, 
Mr.  Summers  asked  for  the  aj'es  and  noes. 

Mr.  Doddridge,  in  reference  to  the  remarks  of  Mr.  Nicholas  on  the  salaries  of  the 
proposed  officers,  observed  that  there  seemed  to  be  something  in  the  atmosphere  of 
this  city,  which  occasioned  great  alarm  on  the  subject  of  salaries.  As  long  as  the  old 
Council  was  sustained,  with  its  eight  salaried  Councillors,  not  a  word  was  heard  on 
the  subject.  To  meet,  in  part,  the  difficulty  about  expenses,  he  suggested  the  adop- 
tion of  a  plan  long  practised  in  Pennsylvania,  by  devolving  the  duties  of  the  Gover- 
nor, in  case  of  the  death  of  that  officer,  on  the  President  of  the  Senate,  and  let  the 
salary  continue  to  the  end  of  M'hat  would  have  been  the  Governor's  term.  In  the 
course  of  forty  years,  but  one  such  case  had  occurred  in  Pennsylvania  ;  which  was 
on  the  death  of  Governor  Mifflin,  when  the  oflfice  was  filled  by  Mr.  Word  of  Pitts- 
burg. A  similar  case  had  once  happened  in  Ohio,  when  Othniel  Lucar  filled  the 
vacancy.  Mr.  D.  explained  the  duties  of  Secretary  of  State,  to  consist  in  registering 
all  the  official  acts  of  the  Executive  Department,  in  preserving  the  papers,  and  offer- 
ing the  seal  of  State,  &c.  So  fir  as  expense  was  concerned,  the  proposed  plan  would 
be  a  relief  to  the  Treasury,  while  the  duties  of  the  department  would  be  simplified. 

Mr.  Leigh  suggested  to  Mr.  Fitzhugh,  that  if  the  Attorney  General  was  to  be  made 
the  Constitutional  adviser  of  the  Governor  in  all  matters  of  State,  it  would  be  ne- 
cessary to  add  a  Solicitor  General,  or  a  Deputy  Attorney  General,  to  perform  the 
duties  of  his  offi-ce.  The  new  Secretary  of  State  was  to  be  merely  the  present  Clerk 
of  the  Council,  with  a  new  name.  He  submitted  the  question,  whether  the  Clerk  of 
the  Council  was  a  proper  Constitutional  adviser  for  the  Governor.?    The  very  quali- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTIOX. 


717 


ties  which  made  him  a  good  Clerk,  unfitted  him  to  be  a  good  Councillor,  and  tice 

zersa  he  would  either  be  a  bad  Clerk  or  a  bad  Councillor.    The  business  of  a  Se-  ' 

cretary  of  State  was  to  think — not  to  write — not  to  fold  and  endorse  and  file  papers. 
The  same  argument,  to  a  certain  extent,  applied  to  the  Attorney  General.  If  he  de- 
voted himself  to  affairs  of  State,  he  must  give  up  his  professioucJ  duties.  Mr.  L. 
scouted  the  idea  of  any  saving  of  expense  by  the  new  arrangement — ways  and  means 
would  always  be  found  to  dispose  of  the  revenue.  If  the  whole  debt  of  the  United 
States  was  paid,  the  same  revenue  would  still  be  exacted  from  the  people,  and  spent 
in  some  shape.  The  Governor's  salary  must  be  increased  with  his  duties — so  must 
those  of  the  Heads  of  Departments.  If  gentlemen  would  command  mind,  they  must 
pay  for  mind.  They  did  not  want  a  mere  right  hand,  with  a  pen  in  it,  and  an  ink- 
stand before  it.  He  expressed  surprise,  that  ^Ir.  Mercer  should  have  alluded  to  the 
abolition  of  the  Council  in  2s  ew  York.  Was  it  possible  that  gentleman  did  not  know- 
that  they  had  had  two  Councils  in  New  York — a  Council  of  revision,  and  a  Council 
of  appointment And  could  he  suppose  they  had  any  analogy  to  the  Executive 
Couucll  of  Virginia  r  Their  name  was  the  only  point  of  resemblance.  The  Council 
of  appointment  had  been  abolished,  because  it  was  corrupt — and  the  Council  of  re- 
vision, because  it  had  rejected  some  popular  law.  He  denied,  that  the  argument  in 
the  Federalist  had  any  application  at  all  to  such  a  Council  as  that  of  Virginia.  It 
contained  general  reflections  merely.  The  gentleman  had  called  that  book  his  poli- 
tical bible,  and  said  it  was  almost  the  only  book  on  politics  he  had  ever  read,  (a  short 
catalocrue  indeed  ;)  but,  he  would  remind  the  gentleman  of  what  he  had  himself  said 
of  that  work — that  it  was  written  in  the  spirit  of  an  advocate,  not  of  a  judge — being 
intended  to  persuade  the  people  of  the  United  States  to  adopt  the  Federal  Constitu- 
tion. But,  would  any  have  the  Executive  of  Virginia  like  that  of  the  United  States.? 
Kentucky  had  made  the  experiment,  and  tasted  the  consequences.  Was  Virginia 
seeking  to  form  an  Executive  adapted  to  manage  the  foreign  relations  of  a  great  na- 
tion.' Was  an  instrument  to  be  formed  in  the  same  way,  no  matter  what  end  it  was 
to  answer .'  Would  they  attempt  to  shave  a  gentleman  with  a  broad-axe,  or  with  the 
guillotine.''  It  might,  indeed,  be  the  very  best  mode,  as  tlie  gentleman  would  never 
want  sliaving  a^ain.  So  these  gentlemen  were  for  applying  the  axe  to  the  neck  of 
the  State  Government. 

Mr.  L.  said,  I  am  not  going  to  say  any  thing  more  about  the  Executive  Council. 
God  help  me  !  I  sometimes  think  I  am  labouring  under  a  partial  insanity,  and  that 
this  must  be  one  of  the  subjects  in  which  it  runs.  I  hear  the  evils  of  this  Council 
talked  of,  and  that  not  by  the  enemies  of  the  principle — not  by  those  who  are  infusing 
a  spice  of  JNIonarchy  into  the  Government — but  by  men,  for  whose  judgment  I  have 
the  highest  respect,  and  who  draw  their  notions  from  observation  and  experience. 
What  those  evils  are,  I  have  yet  to  learn — errors  there  Avill  be — occasional  instances 
of  the  prevalence  of  passion — this  I  am  not  going  to  deny.  But,  when  we  shall  get 
a  Government  that  is  exempt  from  all  error  in  every  one  of  its  acts,  then  we  shall  be 
in  that  happy  condition,  which  nofle  ever  expect  to  see  but  the  Utopians — and  they 
only  when  they  shall  have  made  men  different  from  w^hat  they  are — and  then  they 
will  find  that  they  are  as  inferior  in  their  schemes  of  Government,  to  those  who 
framed  our  Constitution,  as  they  will  find  themselves  in  remodelling  the  nature  of 
man  to  God  Almighty,  who  made  the  human  heart  and  mind.  Sir,  I  am  reminded  of 
what  the  devoted  Griffith  said  to  Catherine,  the  Queen  of  Henry  8th — men"s  evil 
actions  live  in  brass — their  virtues  we  write  in  water"' — and  when  the  Executive 
Council  shall  be  dead  and  gone,  and  cold  in  the  grave,  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun — 
no — but  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier  will  wish  it  to  have  such  a  Chronicler  of  its 
living  actions  as  poor  Griffith. 

Mr.  Upshur  now  moved  to  amend  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Fitzhugh,  by  substituting 
the  following : 

"  Resolved,  That  there  shall  be  appointed  an  Executive  Council  or  Council  of  State, 
consisting  of  four  Councillors,  to  be  elected  by  joint  ballot  of  both  Houses  of  the 
Legislature.  One  from  the  district  west  of  the  Alleghany;  one  from  the  district  of 
the  Valley  ;  one  from  the  district  between  the  Blue  Ridge  and  the  head  of  tide  water, 
and  one  from  the  district  betv.-een  the  head  of  tide  water  and  the  ocean;  who  shall 
choose  annually,  out  of  their  own  number,  a  President,  who  shall  act  as  Lieutenant- 
Governor;  and  in  all  respects  hold  the  same  relation  to  the  Governor,  or  perform 
the  same  duties,  as  the  existing  Council  of  State  hold  and  perform.  Two  members 
shall  form  a  quorum,  and  in  case  of  an  equal  division  of  votes,  the  Governor  shall 
have  the  casting  vote." 

Mr.  U.  said,  the  scheme  was  not  yet  carried  out  into  all  its  details — but  he  offered 
it,  to  try  the  sense  of  the  House  as  to  its  important  features. 

Mr.  Mercer  expressed  his  regret  at  seeing  the  great  natural  divisions  of  the  State 
brought  into  any  plan  as  connected  with  political  arrangements.  He  feared  the  prac- 
tical effect  of  this  w^ould  be  to  confirm  forever  those  local  divisions,  and  produce  a 
spirit  of  separate  and  rival  interest  among  the  people  inhabiting  them.    Ke  objected 


718 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


to  a  Council,  which  would  sink  the  Governor  so  far,  as  to  leave  liim  less  power  tliaii 
a  high  Councillor.  He  denied  the  charge  of  wishing  to  form  a  Government  without 
any  guide  of  experience — and  he  appealed  to  the  example  of  seventeen  States,  which 
were  without  any  Council,  in  contrast  to  seven,  which  had  this  feature.  He  denied 
having  ever  called  the  Federalist  his  political  bible,  or  having  said  it  was  the  only  po- 
litical book  he  read ;  but,  he  contended,  that  its  language  was  always  to  be  received 
cum  grano  sails,  remembering  for  what  end  they  were  written.  Preferring  to  the  doc- 
trine maintained  there,  that  an  Executive  ought  to  possess  energy,  and  not  be  tram- 
melled by  a  Council,  Mr.  M.  quoted,  as  being  much  better  than  any  thing  he  could 
say,  the  entire  argument  in  the  70th  number  of  the  Federalist,  on  the  subject  of  a 
plural  Executive,  accompanying  it  by  occasional  comments,  shewing  its  apphcabiUty 
to  the  present  measure. 

Mr.  M.  observed,  that  he  had  read  this  long  extract  for  the  purpose  of  shewing  that 
the  Executive  Council  was  a  vice  in  the  Constitution.  As  to  the  argument,  that  it 
preserved  a  record  of  the  motives  of  the  Executive  acts,  it  was  false  in  fact.  Those 
motives  could  be  judged  only  by  the  acts  themselves — and  for  his  acts,  the  Governor 
was  responsible,  and  liable  to  impeachment. 

He  expressed  his  apprehension  of  an  undue  influence  of  the  Legislature  over  th« 
Executive — referred  to  several  instances  to  shew  the  disposition  to  encroachment  in 
that  body,  and  concluded  by  reference  to  the  55th  number  of  the  Federalist,  (written 
by  the  very  venerable  gentleman  in  his  eye,)  to  shew  the  danger  of  placing  all  the 
power  of  the  State  in  the  hands  of  a  popular  Assembly. 

Mr.  Claytor  asked  for  the  ayes  and  noes,  which  were  ordered. 

Mr.  Giles  asked  to  know,  whether  the  Governor  was  to  be  elected  by  a  majority,  or 
hj  a  mere  plurality  of  votes  ?  In  the  former  case,  there  would  be  caucussing — in  the 
latter,  a  multitude  of  candidates,  and  a  Governor  elected  by  a  little  faction  in  one 
corner  of  the  State.  Now,  there  was  another  project — for  a  Secretary  of  State.  By 
whom  was  he  to  be  appointed  ?  By  the  Governor.?  By  the  Legislature?  Or  by  the 
people  ?  And  in  the  last  case,  by  a  majority  or  a  plurality  ?  All  this  was  left  blank ; 
■so  all  his  duties  were  left  blank.  If  the  Convention  proceeded  in  this  style,  it  would 
.at  length  be  reduced  to  the  necessity  of  making  an  open  declaration  of  its  incapacity 
to  form  a  Constitution,  and  of  then  giving  a  general  carte  hlanche  to  the  Legislature. 
After  some  reflections  on  the  inchoate  state  in  which  projects  were  presented  for  de- 
liberation, Mr.  G.  said,  that  any  impartial  person,  after  reviewing  what  they  had  been 
doing  for  some  days  past,  must  be  led  irresistibly  to  the  conclusion,  that  the  less  this 
t)ody  did  the  better.  He  had  come  to  this;  that  the  more  projects  were  presented,  the 
more  mischief  was  likely  to  ensue — yet  he  had  all  respect  for  the  virtue  and  the  talents 
of  gentlemen  who  offered  them.  He  knew  of  but  one  circumstance  which  entered 
into  the  case,  and  that  was,  that  if  they  did  nothing,  they  should  still  have  done  a 
great  deal.  They  would  then  have  let  alone  what  wiser  men  had  provided.  Their 
forefathers  had  done  moi-e  for  them  than  they  seemed  capable  of  doing  for  themselves. 

The  gentleman  last  up,  (Mr.  Mercer,)  had  come  out  with  the  true  object  in  view : 
It  was  to  form  an  energetic  Executive.  That  had  been  obvious  for  some  time.  Not 
content  with  an  Executive  that  could  do  no  harm,  they  were  seeking  one  who  could 
do  a  great  deal  of  harm.  An  energetic  Executive"  was  one  of  the  cabalistical 
phrases,  of  which  the  nation  had  scores — it  meant,  when  translated,  power — power 
in  the  hands  of  one  man,  and  uncontrolled.  As  to  the  doctrines  of  the  Federalist, 
which  had  been  read,  they  had  no  application  to  the  condition  of  Virginia;  but  it  was 
his  belief,  that  that  very  number  of  Fublius  had  introduced  into  the  General  Govern- 
ment an  Executive  with  energy  enough  to  destroy  the  liberties  of  this  nation — and  it 
was  now  busily  engaged  in  cutting  up  those  liberties  as  fast  as  possible.  What  was 
all  the  complaint  as  to  the  present  Executive  ?  Was  it  not  for  the  exercise  of  this 
very  energy  ?  And  those  who  complained  so  loudly  of  the  exercise  of  this  power  in 
the  Federal  Government,  were  for  paving  the  way  for  its  introduction  into  Virginia. 
The  difference  between  such  an  Executive  as  that  of  the  United  States  and  that  of 
Virginia,  was  in  fact  the  difference  between  Monarchy  and  Republicanism. 

Mr.  G.  here  went  again  into  an  exposition  of  the  constitution  of  the  present  Coun- 
cil, and  its  operation  in  respect  to  the  Governor  ;  but,  as  we  have  fully  reported  it  on 
a  former  occasion,  we  omit  it  here. 

He  referred  to  the  last  Executive  of  the  United  States,  and  to  the  sentence  of  the 
people,  that  instead  of  having  done  no  wrong,  he  had  done  all  wrong.  They  had 
turned  him  and  his  all  out  by  the  board ;  and  now  a  minority  were  endeavouring  to 
do  the  same  by  the  present  administration,  all  for  the  exercise  of  this  energy. 

He  referred  to  the  multitude  of  schemes  proposed — thought  the  Convention  was 
afflicted  with  too  much  light,  and  overburdened  with  talents — all  their  difficulties 
arose  from  indulging  an  ignis  fatuus,  in  the  shape  of  the  old  doctrine  of  human  per- 
fectibility— but  concluded  with  this  comfort,  that  if  they  had  done  nothing,  they  would 
have  done  a  great  deal. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


719 


The  debate  was  further  continued  by  Mr.  Moore  of  Rockbridge,  who  opposed  the 
amendment  of  Mr.  Upshur,  as  calculated  to  defeat  the  object  of  electing  the  Gover- 
nor by  the  people.  AVhere  was  the  use  of  this,  if  a  Council  was  to  be  placed  over 
him  b}^  the  election  of  the  Legislature  r  The  argument  seems  to  rest  on  the  incom- 
petency of  the  people  to  choose  a  proper  Governor — and  so  guardians  must  be  put 
over  the  lunatic.  He  was  in  favor  of  Mr.  Fitzhugh's  plan — believing  that  a  Secre- 
tary of  State,  by  employing  one-fourth  of  his  time,  could  do  more  than  the  Governor 
and  Council  now  did.  He  was  ignorant  of  what  they  did,  unless  it  was  to  take  bad 
security  in  a  contract  about  negroes.  Ke  had  been  here  for  tv>'0  months,  and  he 
could  scarcely  swear  that  the  Council  had  any  existence — two  of  the  members  were 
gone,  and  one  was  here  as  Clerk — yet  all  went  on  as  well  as  usual.  He  believed 
them  to  be  utterly  useless.  As  to  the  Governor,  he  had  been  here  at  the  last  elec- 
tion, and  did  not  know  till  the  morning  on  which  he  was  chosen,  that  he  had  been 
named  as  a  candidate.  Instead  of  being  chosen  by  "a  little  faction  in  one  corner  of 
the  State,'"  he  was  cliosen  by  a  little  faction  in  the  Legislature — that  was  all  the  dif- 
ference. If  the  Convention  should  do  nothing,  the  people  would  judge  where  the 
blame  was  to  lie.  It  was  a  conflict  between  the  people  and  those  in  power — and  the 
issue  had  yet  to  be  decided.  The  charge  of  vacillation  did  not  touch  him.  He  had 
always  voted  one  way  on  the  question — and  if  some  who  were  opposed  to  the  white- 
basis,  had  voted  to  give  the  election  of  Governor  to  the  people,  the  reason  was  to  be- 
fbund  in  the  sentiments  of  the  districts  from  which  they  came. 

Mr.  Coalter  considered  the  gentleman  from  Rockbridge,  as  having  pronounced  one- 
of  the  greatest  eulogiums  that  ever  was  uttered  on  any  Government  He  was  here 
during  an  election  of  Governor,  and  did  not  hear  the  name  of  the  candidate  till  the 
day  of  the  election!  How  long  would  this  be  the  case,  after  the  election  should  have 
been  given  to  the  people  ?  The  gentleman  said  he  scarcely  knew  there  was  such  a 
thing  in  being  as  the  Governor  and  Council.  No  more  did  not  the  gentleman  feel 
the  Sow  of  the  blood  in  his  veins — and  it  was  a  proof  of  his  health  that  he  did  not^ 
But  let  the  gentleman  be  seized  with  a  fever,  and  then  he  would  soon  feel  that  he  had 
a  pulse.  It  was  all  Mr.  C.  desired,  to  live,  and  not  be  conscious  how  his  life  was  kept 
up.  Political  health  was  the  same  thing.  iNIr.  Coalter  denied  that  the  Attorney  Ge- 
nera] (on  whom  he  pronounced  a  warm  eulogium)  could  be  induced  to  become  Et 
lackey  to  the  Governor,  and  leave  his  practice,  without  a  large  and  adequate  salary. 
They  must  provide  a  sinecure  for  him  when  he  left  the  office — as  he  would  never 
leave  his  lucrative  practice,  to  seek  his  bread  upon  the  commons.  As  to  the  Secretary 
of  State,  if  he  was  fit  for  his  place,  he  must  have  a  Clerk  under  him.  Would  he  fold 
papers  and  wait  on  every  countryman,  who  came  in  with  apples  and  wanted  some  pa- 
per certified.'  Mr.  C.  insisted  on  the  value  of  having  the  advice  of  Council  recorded 
and  all  the  Executive  acts  supervised. 

He  was  in  favour  of  the  plan  of  Mr.  Upshur.  It  might  limit  the  range  of  selection^ 
but  it  would  secure  local  knowledge,  and  when  strangers  came  to  town  from  the 
country,  if  they  had  a  Councillor  for  their  own  district,  they  would  feel  less  embar- 
rassment in  applying  to  him  respecting  their  business.  A  raw  country  lad  felt  timid 
in  entering  the  Governor's  mansion.  One  whose  shoes  were  highly  polished  had  en- 
tered without  rubbing  them  on  the  gravel  at  the  door — and  treading  on  waxed  floors^ 
found  himself  in  a  dangerous  situation — took  to  skating — cut  high-dutch'' — and  es- 
caped, after  throwing  down  a  waiter  of  tea  things.  As  to  the  example  of  New  York^ 
if  ever  he  heard  a  book  read  containing  such  charges  against  Virginia,  as  had  led  to 
the  abolition  of  the  New  York  Council,  he  should  be  for°quitting  the  State,  and  look- 
ing out  for  his  safety  elsewhere. 

The  question  on  Mr.  Upshur's  amendment,  was  now  taken  by  ayes  and  noes  as  fol- 
lows : 

Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marr>hall,  Tyler,  Nicholas,. 
Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampto^n,  Trezvant.  Claiborne.  Urquhart.  Randolph,  Leigh  of 
Hahfax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladav,  Koane.  Tavlor  of  Carohne, 
Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae.  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall, 
Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale, 
Rose,  Coaher,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 48. 

.Aot.?— Messrs.  Clopton,  Anderson,  Coffman.  Harrison.Williamson.  Baldwin.  M'Coy, 
Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  :\Illler,  Baxter,  fiercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson.  Osborne,  Cooke^ 
Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Navlor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton.  George, 
M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Clovd,  Chapman.  Mathews. 'Odesby, 
Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridufe,  Morgan.  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson, 
C=ii^P^^«li  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  C^abell,  Stuart,  Thompson,  Joynes  and  Bay- 
So  the  amendment  was  not  adopted. 

The  question  now  recurring  on  that  of  Mr.  Fitzhugh,  it  was  modified  by  the  mover, 
so  as  to  provide  lor  the  election  of  the  Secretary  of  State  by  a  joint  vote  of  both  Houses 
ot  the  Legislature. 


720 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


The  question  was  then  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Clopton,  Anderson,  Coftman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  M'Coy,  Moore, 
Beirne,  Smith,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell, 
Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan, 
Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laid- 
ley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of 
Bedford,  Clay  tor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Thompson,  Joynes  and  Bayly — 47. 

JS'oes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  oi  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  JNicholas, 
Baldwin,  Johnson,  Miller,  Mas^on  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart, 
Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane, 
Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green, 
Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie, 
Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 49. 

So  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Fitzhugh  was  rejected. 

The  resolution  was  then  agreed  to  in  its  original  form,  as  reported  by  the  Executive 
Committee,  (see  above,)  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Clopton,  Anderson,  Cofflnan,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin, 
M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Madison,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Hender- 
son, Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd, 
Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloj'd,  Chapman, 
Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell 
of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Clay  tor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart, 
Thompson,  Joynes  and  Bayly — 50. 

jYoes — Messrs.  Birbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart.  Randolph,  Leigh  of 
Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris, 
Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis, 
Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter, 
Upshur  and  Perrin — 4G. 

The  fourth  resolution  of  the  Executive  Committee  was  then  read  as  follows : 

"  Resolved,  That  in  case  of  the  removal  of  the  Governor  from  office,  or  of  his  death, 
resignation,  or  inability  to  discharge  the  duties  and  powers  of  his  office,  the  said  poir.ers 
and  duties  shall  devolve  on  the  Lieutenant  Governor,  and  the  Legislature  may  provide 
for  the  case  of  removal,  death,  or  similar  inability,  of  the  Lieutenant  Governor.'' 

Mr.  Doddridge  moved  to  amend  it  by  striking  out  "  Lieutenant  Governor,"  and  in- 
serting "  the  President  of  thei  Senate  for  the  time  being." 

Mr.  Randolph,  after  ascertaining  from  the  Chair  that  he  understood  the  motion, 
said  :  And  this  we  are  to  do  on  the  principle  that  we  are  so  outrageously  republican, 
that  we  cannot  trust  the  Legislature  to  do  by  joint  ballot  what  they  have  been  doing 
for  more  than  half  a  century.  I  have  always  remarked,  ever  since  I  have  been  in 
public  life,  that  extremes  beget  each  other.  We  can't  trust  the  whole  Legislature  to 
elect  by  a  joint  ballot — but  we  can  trust  the  Senate  to  elect — acting  by  themselves. 

The  Speaker  of  the  Senate — that  aristocratic  body — and  i  suppose,  if  the  white  basis 
is  to  succeed,  it  will  be  the  negro  Senate — he,  forsooth,  is  to  be  Governor,  in  case  of 
the  death,  resignation,  or  inability  to  serve,  of  that  officer,  Vvhich  may  happen  the  first 
month  after  his  election — he  is  to  exercise  all  the  functions  of  the  office.  Now,  in  the 
name  of  God — (I  ask  pardon  for  taking  the  name  of  God  in  vain — the  name  of  God 
ought  never  to  be  mentioned  in  this  House — it  is  not  a  fit  place) — if  these  outrageous 
theories  are  to  prevail,  why  not  take  the  Speaker  of  the  House  of  Burgesses or  why 
not  let  them  both  be  Governor?  and  sit  like  two  Kings  of  Brentford,  in  the  same 
chair,  smelling  to  the  same  nosegay  ?  We  have  example  for  it.  The  Romans  chose 
two  Consuls — let  one  attend  to  domestic  affairs,  the  other  conduct  the  grand  foreign 
correspondence,  of  which  we  have  heard,  and  which  is  to  be  carried  on  by  a  Secretary 
of  State — thank  God  he  is  as  yet  but  a  future  in  rus.  Sir,  this  whole  project  carries 
contradiction  and  absurdity — yes — absurdity  on  its  face.  In  other  terms — in  plain 
English — it  says,  that  we  can't  trust  both  Houses — but  we  can  trust  a  Senate  of 
twenty-four  men,  to  elect  tins  Governor  that  may  be — without  having  his  fitness  for 
that  office  before  their  eyes — but  choosing  him  as  their  own  President.  Sir,  is  it 
necessary  to  hold  up  a  candle  to  the  noon  day  sun.''  It  is  only  needful  to  hold  this 
up  for  what  it  is — an  object  of  ridicule  and  scorn. 

After  some  remarks  by  Messrs.  Mercer  and  Doddridge,  the  proposition  was  with- 
drawn, at  the  request  of 

Mr.  Powell,  who  offered  the  following  : 

"  The  General  Assembly  shall  provide  by  law,  upon  whom  the  powers  and  duties 
shall  devolve." 

The  question  being  put  on  Mr.  Powell's  amendment,  it  was  adopted — Ayes  52. 
The  question  then  recurring  on  the  resolution  as  amended, 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


731 


Mr,  Tazewell  opposed  the  amendment;  as  involving  a  diiliculty  in  its  terms.  The 
Legislature  could  not  appoiat  either  the  President  of  the  Senate  or  Speaker  of  the 
House  of  Delegates — because  their  offices  expired  with  the  session.  If  one  of  the 
Judges,  was  his  judicial  function  to  be  suspended  ? 

The  debate  was  farther  continued  by  Messrs.  Powell,  Coalter,  Mercer  and  Taze- 
well— but  before  any  decision  was  had,  on  motion  of  Mr.  Fitzhugh,  the  House  ad- 
journed. 


WEDNESDAY,  Dbcxmber  23,  18-29. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rer.  Mr. 
Taylor  of  the  Baptist  Church. 

The  question  pending,  was  on  agreeing  to  the  fourth  resolution  of  the  Executive 
Committee,  as  amended  by  Mr.  Powell. 

Mr.  Scott  rose  and  said,  tliat  he  had  some  hopes  of  seeing  the  Convention  relieved 
from  the  state  of  embarrassment  under  which  it  had  been  labouring,  and  of  getting 
back  to  that  point  in  its  deliberations  at  which  it  had  resolved  that  the  Governor 
should  be  elected  by  the  people.  As  a  means  to  that  result,  he  moved  to  lay  the  pre- 
sent resolution  and  amendment,  for  the  present  upon  the  table  :  hoping  that  some 
friend  who  had  voted  in  the  majority  on  that  question  would  move  for  a  re-considera- 
tion of  the  vote. 

Mr.  Gordon  enquired  whether  laying  the  present  resolution  on  the  table  must  of 
necessity  precede  the  motion  to  re-consider  .' 
The  Chair  replied  in  the  affirmative. 

Mr.  Gordon  then-  said,  tliat  if  the  present  resolution  should  be  laid  upon  the  table, 
he  would  then  move  a  re-consideration. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  that  since  the  object  in  view  had  been  distinctly  avowed,  he 
should  ask  for  the  ayes  and  noes  on  the  motion  to  lay  the  resolution  upon  the  table. 

They  were  ordered  by  the  House,  and  being  taken,  stood  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches= 
terfield,  Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander.  Goode,  ^Marshall.  Tyler,  ^S^icholas, 
Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart.  Randolph.  Leigh  of 
Halifax,  Loffan,  Venable,  Stanard.  Holladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline.  Morris, 
Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scolt.  Macrae.  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall.  Prentis, 
Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Branch,  Townes.  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates, 
Neale.  Pwose.  Coalter,  Joynes,  Upshur  and  Perrin — IS. 

S\'oes — Messrs.  Ciopton,  Anderson,  Coffman.  Harrison.  Williamson,  Baldwin, 
M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  ]Madison,  Mercer.  Fitzhusfh.  Hender- 
son, Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs.  ]Mason  of  Frederick,  !Xaylor,  Donaldson.  Boyd, 
Pendleton,  George,  ^I'lMillan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman, 
Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley.  Summers.  See.  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Camp- 
bell of  Brooke.  Wilson.  Clavtor.  Saimders.  Cabell,  Martin.  Stuart,  Thompson  and 
Bayly— 48. 

So  the  motion  to  lay  on  the  table  did  not  prevail. 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  the  fourth  resolution  as  amended,  and  decided  by 
ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

.iyes — Messrs.  Ciopton,  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Bald^-in, 
M'Coy,  IMoore,  Beirne,  Smith.  Miller,  Baxter,  Madison.  Mercer.  Fitzhugh.  Hender- 
son, Osborne,  Cooke.  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick.  ^S^aylor.  Donaldson.  Boyd, 
Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington.  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman, 
Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley.  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morsran,  Campbell 
of  Brooke.  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford.  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell.  Mcirtin,  Stuart, 
Thompson,  Massie,  Joynes  and  Bayly — 51. 

.Xoes — >Iessrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall.  Tyler.  ]!sicholas, 
Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant.  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of 
Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Stanard.  Holladay.  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris, 
Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae.  Green.  Tazewell,  Loyall.  Prentis, 
Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Upshur 
and  Perrin — 15. 

The  ninth,  tenth  and  eleventh  resolutions  of  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  were 
then  considered.    The  eleventh  read  as  follows : 

Resolved,  That  it  shall  be  the  duty  of  the  Governor  to  execute,  or  cause  to  be 
executed,  all  the  laws  of  the  Commonwealth ;.  to  communicate  to  the  Legislature,  at 
every  session,  the  condition  of  the  State,  and  to  recomm.end  to  their  consideration, 
such  measures  as  he  may  deem  expedient.    He  shall  also  be  Commander-in-chief  of 

91 


722 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


the  land  and  naval  forces  of  the  State ;  shall  have  power  to  convene  the  Legislature, 
when  in  his  opinion  the  interests  of  the  State  may  require  it,  or  on  application  of  a 
majority  of  tlie  members  of  the  House  of  Delegates.  To  fill  vacancies  occurring 
durino-  the  recess  of  the  Legislature,  in  offices,  the  appointment  to  which  is  vested  in 
the  Legislative  body  ;  to  grant  reprieves  or  pardons,  except  where  the  prosecution 
shall  have  been  carr.ed  on  by  the  House  of  Delegates,  or  the  law  shall  otherwise  par- 
ticularly direct ;  and  to  conduct,  either  in  person,  or  by  such  agents  as  the  Legisla- 
ture may  desio-nate,  all  negociations  and  correspondence  with  other  or  foreign  States." 

Mr  Filzhugti  moved  to  amend  the  eleventh  resolution,  by  striking  therefrom  the 
followinn-  words,  viz  :  To  fill  vacancies  occurring  during  the  recess  of  the  Legisla- 
ture, in  offices,  the  appointment  to  which  is  vested  in  the  Legislative  body,"  and  to 
insert  in  lieu  thereof  the  fi)l]owing  : 

To  appoint  persons  to  fill  the  vacancies,  occurring  during  the  recess  of  the  Legis- 
lature in  offices,  the  appointment  to  which  is  vested  in  the  Legislature  ;  provided, 
that  such  persons,  unless  re-appointed  shall  continue  in  office,  only  until  the  end  of 
the  next  succeeding  session  of  the  General  Assembly." 

This  aaiendinent'^was  agreed  to,  and  the  question  being  put  on  agreeing  to  the  three 
resolutions,  it  was  carried. 

So  the  Convention  had  now  gone  through  the  report  of  the  Executive  Committee. 
Mr.  Stuart  of  Patrick,  now  moved  to  take  up  the  resolution  he  had  oifered  a  day  or 
two  since,  and  which,  at  his  own  motion,  had  at  that  time  been  laid  upon  the  table. 

Mr.  S.  expressed  bis  surprise  at  what  had  fallen  from  Mr.  Scott,  who,  when  thia 
resolution  had  been  laid  upon  the  table,  had  declared  he  should  vote  against  ever  tak- 
ing: it  up  again.  He  contended  that  as  the  resolution  had  been  oifered  by  way  of 
compromise,  and  had  never  been  considered  either  in  Committee  of  the  Whole  or  in 
the  House,  it  ought,  at  least,  to  have  an  opportunity  of  being  considered. 

Mr.  Scott  disclaimed  any  want  of  courtesy  :  if  the  amendment  had  contained  any 
new  matter,  or  was  llkey  ever  to  be  made  acceptable  to  the  House,  he  should  not  be 
for  refusing  to  consider  it :  but  as  the  question  on  the  basis  had  been  settled  by  a  de- 
cided majtmty  oi'  the  House,  to  call  it  up  again  was  worse  than  useless  :  it  could  end 
in  no  good.  No  respectable  majority  could  be  obtained  for  the  scheme,  and  he  could 
not  believe  the  gentiemm  from  Patrick  could  desire,  by  a  majority  of  one  or  of  two, 
to  force  it  upon  a  reluctant  minority. 

Mr.  Doddridge  contended  for  the  obligations  of  courtesy  and  gentlemanly  demeanor 
toward  each  other  as  equals — and  asked  what  could  be  the  cause  of  the  fear  of  taking 
up  the  resolution,  and  of  having  a  vote  recorded  upon  it.^  Was  it  that  gentlemen 
would  be  exposed  to  inconvenience  from  thus  having  their  votes  made  known  ? 

[Here  the  Chiir  reminded  Mr.  D.  that  it  was  out  of  order  to  insinuate  any  unwor- 
thy motives  for  the  conduct  of  members  of  the  House.] 

Mr.  D.  said  he  wished  to  record  every  vote  he  had  given  or  should  give  in  relation 
to  every  proposition  for  a  compromise.  Was  he  not  to  be  indulged  in  so  doing.'  He 
disrjlaimed  all  intention  of  bringing  on  an  argument  on  the  subject  of  the  basis  of 
Representation  :  but  he  thought  the  gentleman  from  Patrick  ought  to  be  allowed  to 
explain  and  defend  his  own  proposition. 

Mr.  Stuart  said,  that  he  did  not  agree  with  Mr.  Scott  in  the  opinion  that  the  ques- 
tion of  representation  had  been  settled  by  a  decided  majority,  or  settled  at  all.  The 
question  on  future  apportionment  had  failed,  not  by  a  decided  majority,  but  by  an 
equal  vote  :  and  though  the  plan  of  present  apportionment  had  been  carried  by  a 
considerable  majority,  yet  the  votes  which  constituted  that  majority  had  been  given, 
most  of  them,  under  an  expectation  that  some  plan  of  future  apportionment  was  to  be 
appended  to  the  scheme  :  and  if  that  expectation  was  to  be  taken,  the  majority  in  its 
favour  would  not  exceed  two  at  most :  and  what  eloquence  had  they  not  heard  ex- 
pended in  denouncing  lean  majorities.?  Let  the  resolution  have  the  chance  of  a  con- 
sideration ;  and  if  not  acceptable  in  its  present  form,  possibly,  it  might  be  modified, 
(even  to  the  introduction  of  freeholders  only.)  so  as  to  command  a  respectable  majority. 

Mr.  Gordon  said,  he  should  vote  against  taking  up  the  resolution.  He  was  actuated 
by  no  want  of  courtesy  toward  the  gentleman  from  Patrick,  for  wliom  he  had  tlie 
greatest  respect :  but  it  was  obvious  to  all,  that  the  mere  mention  of  the  subject  of  the 
basis  of  Representation,  produced  excitement  in  all  parts  of  the  House.  The  ques- 
tion of  future  apportionment,  was  one  which  had  been  got  up  in  this  Convention. 
He  had  never  so  much  as  heard  the  idea  broached  in  his  district.  The  only  question 
there  was  as  to  the  equalizing  of  representation  :  the  other  question  had  never  been  dis- 
cussed, and  it  was  most  plain  that  it  was  a  subject  which  never  could  be  agreed  upon 
in  th  s  body.  The  two  sides  of  the  House  were  equally  divided,  and  he  was  not  go- 
ing to  throw  himself  into  the  scale  of  either,  to  enable  it  to  saddle  the  other  with 
wh  it  was  unwelcome  and  grievous.  Let  us,  said  Mr.  G.  go  back  to  the  people,  wlio  are 
our  m.asters — let  them  either  accept  or  reject  the  Constitution  as  they  think  fit,  and 
if  by  any  change  in  population,  it  becomes  unequal  in  its  operation,  they  would  be 
eompet€nt  to  counteract  it  through  tjie  Legislature.    But  surely  that  House  wa.8  not 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTIO^T. 


723 


to  eit  there  from  month  to  month  in  angry  disputation.  For  fear  of  such  a  result,  he 
should  be  for  keeping  the  resolution  where  it  was,  upon  the  table.  He  greatl}-  ques- 
tioned whether  it  was  the  interest  of  a  slave-holding  community,  to  agita'e  the  ques- 
tion of  power  every  ten  years  :  it  always  would  tend  to  excitt-ment,  and  while  this 
lasted,  all  bonds  of  brotherhi)od,  between  East  and  'West,  were  too  apt  to  be  f  rgotlen. 

Mr.  Johnson  expressed  a  hope  tint  his  friend  from  Patrick,  would  not  n(;w  press 
his  motion.  He,  (Mr.  Johnson.)  would  vote  to  take  it  up  in  due  time  :  but  he  pre- 
ferred at  present  to  go  through  the  Executive  and  Judici.;l  reports:  and  when  they 
were  gone  through  with,  he  should  be  prepared  to  take  up  the  other  resolution. 

Mr.  Stuart  acquiesced,  and  the  motion  was  withdrawn. 

The  Convention  then  proceeded  to  t!ie  consideration  of  the  Judicial  Committee— 
and  concurred  with  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  in  the  smaller  amendments  to  th» 
first  resolution. 

The  first  resolution  as  thus  amended,  reads  as  follows  : 

^'■Resolved,  That  the  Judicial  power  shall  be  vested  in  a  Court  of  Appeals,  in  such 
Inferior  Courts  as  the  Legislature  shall  Irom  time  to  time  ordain  and  establish,  and  in 
tJie  County  Courts,  and  in  tkc  justices  of  the  pence,  icko  shall  covipose  the  said  courts." 

Mr.  Bayly  moved  to  amend  the  resolution,  as  thus  amended,  by  striking  out  these 
words,  and  in  the  County  Courts,  and  in  the  justices  of  the  peace,  who  shall  com- 
pose the  said  courts." 

Expressing  his  purpose  to  forbear  debate  on  a  subject  which  had  been  so  fully  dis- 
cussed, he  asked  for  the  ayes  and  noes,  and  they  were  ordered  by  the  House. 

Mr.  Henderson  now  moved  to  amend  the  amendment  by  striking  out  the  word 
"  th-e"  before  the  words  County  Courts."  On  this  question  Mr.  Leigh  demanded 
the  ayes  and  noes.  A  debate  ensued,  in  which  Messrs.  Campbell  of  Biooke.  Powell, 
Doddridge,  Mercer,  Leigh,  Giles,  Stanard,  Bayly  and  i^iaylor  took  part:  but  the  sub- 
stance of  which  has  already  been  more  than  once  rt-poi  ^od- 

The  merits  of  the  County  Court  system  were  incidentally,  thcu^^.  Pot  extensively 
discussed  :  none  proposed  directly  to  abolish  them,  but  the  desire  was  avowed  to  pjp.cc 
t'hem,  like  the  other  Inferior  Courts  of  the  State,  under  Legislative  controul.  Mr.  Mer- 
cer suggested  that  the  system,  though  highly  benertcial,  in  its  present  form,  in  one  por- 
tion of  the  State,  required  modification  in  the  West,  where  a  small  salary  ouoht  to  be 
allowed  sufficient  to  cover  tlie  expenses  to  which  respectable  farmers  were  subjected 
in  traveling  very  considerable  distances  to  attend  their  duty  as  magistrates.  This 
idea  was  warmly  reprobated  hy  Messrs.  Leigh  and  Giles,  as  going  to  mar  the  system, 
and  revolutionize  its  whole  chiiracter. 

Mr.  Bayly  said,  the  gentlemen  who  opposed  the  motion  did  not  display  their  usual 
candour.  They  had  treated  the  question  as  if  it  v^'as  to  destroy  County  Courts  ;  no 
gentleman  that  he  had  heard,  avowed  any  sucli  intention  in  debate.  We  must  have 
County  Courts,  but  whether  the}'  are  to  be  held  by  justices  of  the  peace  filling  up 
their  own  bod}'-  when  vacancies  occur,  or  with  the  extensive  multifarious  powers  they 
now  possess,  w^as  a  question  for  the  people  of  the  State  to  determine  by  their  Legis- 
lature;  and  all  that  was  now  desired,  was  to  put  these  courts  under  the  c(  nlrrui  of 
tlie  General  Assembly  :  for  to  continue  them  as  they  now  are,  or  to  modify,  chjinge 
or  abolish  them,  as  the  interests  of  this  great  State  may,  Irom  time  to  time  rtqmie. 
The  Convention  was  not  making  a  Constitution  for  ten  or  twenty  years,  but  he 
trusted  they  would  make  one  tliat  the  people  would  oe  contented  with  much  longer. 
It  was,  therefore,  proper  to  remedy  the  evils  wliich  now  exist,  and  tliyse  which  W(.u!ci 
probably  hereafter  exist.  Perha))s  at  this  time  a  majority  of  the  people  of  the  coun- 
ties might  be  satisfied  with  the  County  Court  system,  but  it  would  not  he  denied  that 
one-third  of  them  were  opposed  to  it.  If  so  large  a  number  were  hostile  to  the  sys- 
tem now,  in  a  few  years  it  was  at  least  possible  that  a  majority  of  the  pt-ople  of  the 
counties  in  the  State  might  wish  a  change;  and  if  so,  vriiere  would  be  the  great  in- 
convenience to  allow  the  power  to  a  future  Legislature,  so  to  modify  these  courts, 
that  justice  might  be  dispensed  to  the  people  of  the  State  according  to  their  wishes. 
However  I  may  wish  a  change  to  be  made  in  these  courts.  I  now  only  ntk  the  Conven- 
tion to  place  them  in  the  same  situation  as  the  General  Court,  the  District  Courts  of 
Chancery,  and  the  Superior  Courts  of  Law.  I  desire  none  to  remain  Constitutional 
Courts  but  the  Court  of  Appeals. 

It  has  been  said,  thfit  if  this  motion  shall  prevail,  the  County  Courts  must  imme- 
diately be  re-organized.  I  do  not  believe  that  this  would  he  the  C(  nsequence  ;  they 
would  be  left  precisely  in  the  s:ime  situation,  as  the  other  cour!s  of  the  State  :  if  it 
should  be  necessary  to  re-organize  the  other  courts,  so  it  would  the  County  Courts,' 
and  not  otherwise.  But,  he  believed  all  the  courts  wculd  go  on  as  they  now  do,  until 
the  General  Assembly  should  believe  it  necessary  for  the  interest  of  the  State,  to  make 
a  change.  And  if  the  County  Courts  were  such  great  favourites  with  the  people,  as 
some  seemed  to  suppose,  and  they  are  considered  as  the  great  machine,  by  which  the 
republicanism  of  the  State  is  to  be  preserved,  where  is  the  danger  of  leaving  them 
to  be  cherished  by  the  representatives  of  the  people  r  If  they  were  such  paramount 


724 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


blessings,  the  people  would  not  readily  abolish  them,  and  no  danger  would  threaten 
them. 

If  gentlemen  had  been  sincere  in  the  opinion  they  expressed,  the  Convention  would 
not  have  seen  them  so  extremely  sensitive,  whenever  this  subject  was  approached. 
[Here  the  Chair  reminded  the  gentleman  from  Accomack,  that  it  was  not  in  order  to 
attribute  a  want  of  sincerity  to  members  of  the  House.]  Mr.  B.  continued  :  Perhaps 
it  would  have  been  as  well,  if  I  had  not  used  that  expression.  I  will  suppose  that 
gentlemen  are  sincere :  and  if  so,  then  they  do  believe,  that  these  courts  are  the  dar- 
lings of  the  people.  Why  are  they  so  much  afraid  they  shall  be  left  to  the  power  of 
the  people,  acting  in  their  Legislature 

Gentlemen  have  argued  this  question,  as  if  we  are  the  Legislature,  and  are  now, 
for  the  first  time,  organizing  these  courts  :  and  the  gentleman  Irom  Chesterfield,  (Mr. 
Leigh,)  fears  the  danger  of  having  some  little  petty-fogger  on  the  bench.  The  gen- 
tleman cannot  despise  these  characters  more  than  I  do;  and  I  have  no  dread,  that 
such  characters  will  ever  find  favour  with  a  Virginia  Legislature.  Other  gentlemen 
say,  divide  the  magistrates  of  the  counties,  and  let  them  alternately  hold  the  courts, 
and  pay  them  for  their  services.  To  all  this,  I  say  we  are  not  now  legislating  these 
courts  into  existence ;  and  it  will  be  the  duty  of  the  General  Assembly,  to  consider 
these  different  projects,  when  they  come  to  act  upon  these  courts,  and  we  give  thern 
a  power  to  do  it.  It  is  to  give  the  authority  to  the  Legislature,  that  I  have  proposed 
the  motion.  If  Virginia  shall  ever  be  so  unfortunate  hereafter,  as  to  put  improper 
men  on  the  bench,  or  to  establish  an  arbitrary  and  tyrannical  court,  she  will,  I  trust, 
eoon  retrace  her  steps. 

Sir,  it  was  not  my  intention,  when  I  made  the  motion  now  under  consideration,  to 
discuss  this  question,  which  has  so  often  been  introduced  in  debate  ;  and  when  it  was 
under  consideration  in  the  Committee  of  the  W^hole,  was  so  fully  debated,  that  no- 
thing now  can  be  said  on  the  subject.  And  all  I  ask  is,  that  the  Convention  will  put 
the  County  Coi-rtS  with  the  other  Inferior  Courts,  under  the  countroul  of  people  as- 
ZZZio\eQ.  m  General  Assembly. 

The  question  was  taken  on  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Henderson,  to  strike  out  the 
word  "  the,"  (the  Chair,  for  greater  convenience,  permitting  it  to  be  put  in  that  form,) 
and  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

^yfs — Messrs.  Clopton,  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  M'Coy,  Moore, 
Beirne,  Smith,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor, 
Donaldson,  Boyd,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Chapman, 
Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke, 
Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Joynes, 
Bayly  and  Upshur — 40. 

JVoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Baldwin,  Johnson,  Miller,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart, 
Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Osborne, 
Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Pendleton,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Cloyd, 
Mathews,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis, 
Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose, 
Coalter  and  Perrin — 50. 

Mr.  Bayly  then  modified  his  amendment,  so  as  not  to  touch  the  justices,  but  to  strike 
out  the  words  in  the  County  Courts,"  and  also  the  words  "  who  shall  compose  such 
courts." 

This  question  was  decided  in  the  negative  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Moore,  Smith,  Baxter, 
Mercer,  Henderson,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  M'Millan,  Ogles- 
by, Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Campbell 
of  Bedford.  Saunders,  Cabell,  Thompson,  Joynes  and  Bayly — 27. 

Jfoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Clopton,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  M'Coy,  Beirne,  Miller,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trez- 
vant, Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison, 
Stanard,  Holladay,  Fitzhugh,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Pendleton,  George, 
Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Cloyd, 
Chapman,  Mathews,  See,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell, 
Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Claytor,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gor- 
don, Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 68. 

The  amendments  proposed  by  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  to  the  second  resolu- 
tion, (substituting  "held"  for  "elected,"  and  transposing  the  word  "first,")  were 
agreed  to,  and  caused  the  resolution  to  read  : 

^'  2.  Resolved,  That  the  present  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals,  Judges  of  the  Ge- 
sierai  Court,  and  Chancellors,  remain  in  office  until  the  expiration  of  the  session  of 
ike  first  Legislature  elected  under  the  new  Constitution,  and  no  longer.    But,  the 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


725 


Legislature  may  cause  to  be  paid  to  such  of  them  as  shall  not  be  re-appointed,  such 
sum  as,  from  their  age,  infirmities  and  past  services,  shall  be  deemed  reasonable." 

The  amendment  to  the  third  resolution,  viz:  to  strike  out  "  concurrent,"  and  insert 
"  joint,"  and  also  to  strike  out  the  words  "  each  House  voting  separately,  and  being  a 
negative  on  the  other,  and  the  members  thereof  voting  vita  voce.  The  votes  ot  the 
members  shall  be  entered  on  the  Journals  of  their  respective  Houses.  Should  the 
two  Houses  in  any  case  fail  to  concur  in  the  election  of  a  Judge  during  the  session, 
the  Governor  shall  decide  the  election,  by  appointing  one  of  the  two  persons  who 
shall  first  receive  a  majority  of  votes  in  the  Houses  in  which  they  were  respectively 
voted  for;"  were  agreed  to  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

^yes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  iSicholas, 
Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne, 
Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mason  of  Southampton.  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Ran- 
dolph, Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Mercer,  Fitz- 
hugh,  Hen'clerson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Do- 
naldson, Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Calnpbell  of  Washington,  Byars, Roane, 
Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan, 
Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Can)pbeli  of  Brooke.  Barbour  of  Cul- 
peper,  Macrae,  Tazewell,  LoyalL  Prentis^  Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Saunders, 
Branch,  Townes.  Cabell,  Alartin,  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coal' 
ter.  Bayl}^,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 8^'. 

JVoes — Messrs.  Clopton,  Scott,  Green,  Claytor,  Thompson,  Massie  and  Joynes — 7. 

The  resolution,  as  amended,  reads  : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals,  and  Inferior  Courts,  except 
justices  of  the  County  Courts,  and  the  aldermen,  or  other  magistrates  of  Corporation 
Courts,  shall  be  elected  by  the  concurrent  vote  of  both  Houses  of  the  General  As- 
sembly." 

The  amendment  proposed  by  the  Committee  of  tlie  Whole  in  the  fourth  resolution, 
is  as  follows : 

The  original  resolution  read : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals,  and  of  the  Inferior  Courts, 
shall  receive  fixed  and  adequate  salaries,  which  shall  not  be  diminished  during  their 
continuance  in  office." 

The  amendment  proposed  to  insert  the  words  except  justices  of  the  County 
Courts,  and  the  aldermen,  or  other  magistrates  of  the  Corporation  Courts." 

The  amendment  was  opposed  by  Judge  Marshall,  on  the  ground  that  County  Courts 
and  Corporation  Courts,  not  being  included  within  the  term  Inferior  Courts,  by  any 
just  construction,  to  except  them  was  improper,  because  the  exception  would  imply, 
that  they  were  in  their  nature  included  in  tliat  phrase,  and  would  be  so  in  fact,  if  not 
taken  out  of  it  by  this  exception. 

After  a  few  words  from  Mr.  Giles,  the  amendment  was  not  concurred  in. 

The  next  amendment,  striking  out  the  words  "  by  and  with  the  advice  and  consent 
of  the  Senate,"  from  the  fifth  resolution,  which  gives  the  power  of  appointing  the 
magistrates,  was  agreed  to. 

The  House  having  gone  through  all  the  amendment;?  reported  by  the  Committee  of 
the  Whole  to  the  report  of  the  Judicial  Committee,  returned  to  that  report  as  amended, 
and  took  up  its  several  resolutions  seriatim. 

The  first  resolution  having  been  read  as  follows  : 
The  Judicial  power  shall  be  vested  in  a  Court  of  Appeals,  in  such  Inferior  Courts 
as  the  Legislature  shall  from  time  to  time  ordain  and  establish,  and  in  the  County 
Courts,"  &c. 

Mr.  Doddridge,  with  the  view  of  trying  the  sense  of  the  House,  moved  to  strike 
out  the  article    a,"  and  insert    the"  before  the  words    Supreme  Court  of  Appeals." 
The  motion  was  negatived. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke  moved  to  amend  the  resolution,  by  inserting  the  words 
organization  and,"  before  the  word  ''jurisdiction,"  so  as  to  make  that  part  of  the 
resolution  read,     The  organization  and  jurisdiction  of  these  tribunals  shall  be  regu- 
lated by  law." 

This  amendment  was  rejected  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Clopton,  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  M'Coy,  Moore 
Beirne,  Smith,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Mason  of  Frederick^ 
Naylor,  Donaldson,  Bo3^d,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington.  Byars,  Chap- 
man, Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of 
Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Stuart,  Thompson, 
Joynes  and  Bayly — 40. 

Noes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Baldwin,  Johnson,  Miller,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart^ 


726 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Cooke, 
Powell,  Griggs,  Pendleton,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Carohne,  Morris,  Garnett,  Cloyd,  Ma- 
thews, Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigs- 
by,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter, 
Upshur  and  Perrin — 56. 

Mr.  Thompson  moved  to  amend  the  resolution,  by  striking  from  it  the  last  clause, 
which  declares,  No  modification  or  abolition  of  any  court,  shall  be  construed  to  de- 
prive any  Judge  thereof  of  his  office  ;  but,  such  Judge  shall  pei-form  any  Judicial  du- 
ties, which  the  Legislature  shall  assign  him." 

Mr.  Campbell  asked  for  the  ayes  and  noes,  and  they  vi^ere  ordered  by  the  House. 

Mr.  Giles  said,  that  he  vi^as  not  sure  that  he  rightly  understood  the  clause,  but  if 
he  did,  it  was  in  his  opinion  highly  objectionable,  and  involved  an  anomaly. 

It  seemed  to  be  the  purpose  of  the  clause  to  provide,  that  after  a  court  should  have 
been  abolished,  the  Judge  should  still  hold  his  commission,  and  continue  to  enjo}'  his 
former  emolument.  If  that  was  its  true  meaning,  (as  he  judged  from  no  Oiher  ex- 
planation being  now  offered.)  what  would  be  the  situation  of  the  Judge  and  of  the 
country  ^  Suppose  the  General  Court  to  be  abolished — the  Judges  had  been  commis- 
sioned as  Judges  of  the  General  Court — and  it  was  intended  that  the  Judge,  as  a 
Judge  of  that  Court  which  had  been  abolished,  should  still  be  a  Judge,  and  receive 
compensation.  There  v/as  no  General  Court ;  that  had  been  abolished — 3'et  he  was  to 
hold  his  commission  as  a  Judge  of  a  Court  not  in  existence,  and  by  virtue  of  that 
commission  to  draw  his  salary.  If  such  was  the  purpose,  Mr.  Giles  declared  himself 
utterly  hostile  to  it. 

There  was  no  gentleman  in  the  Convention  more  disposed  for  the  maintenance  of 
the  independence  of  the  Judicial  office  than  he  was.  He  was  decidedly  in  favour  of 
tenure  during  good  behaviour,  but  it  must  be  the  tenure  of  an  office  which  continued 
to  exist,  and  not  tenure  of  a  Judge's  office  when  the  court  of  which  he  was  a  Judge, 
was  no  longer  in  being,  and  as  a  mere  apology  for  paying  him  his  salary.  But  it  was 
provided,  that  he  should  "  perform  any  Judicial  duties  which  the  Legislature  shall 
assign  him."  And  what,  asked  Mr.  G.,  what  in  the  name  of  Heaven,  may  these  be  ? 
Can  he  be  by  commission  Judge  of  one  Court,  and  by  the  duty  he  performs,  the  Judge 
of  another.''  It  was  most  strange  to  think  of  holding  an  office,  after  the  court,  to 
which  that  office  was  an  appendage,  had  been  abolished.  Yet  by  the  very  next  reso- 
lution, the  Convention  abolished  all  the  offices  of  the  existing  courts,  though  not  the 
courts  themselves — and  then  leaves  it  discretionary  with  the  Assembly  to  pay  thera 

such  sums  as,  from  their  age,  infirmities  and  past  services,  should  be  deemed  reason- 
able." To  this  he  had  no  objection.  But  would  not  gentlemen  be  content,  that  when 
thei  court  was  discontinued,  the  Judge  should  be  discontinued,  when  such  a  provision 
was  made  for  his  situation 

Should  this  clause  be  omitted,  Mr.  G.  said  he  had  an  amendment  to  add  to  the  se- 
cond resolution,  which  was  intended  to  put  the  independence  of  the  Judges  beyond 
doubt.  [It  provided,  that  in  the  modification  or  abolition  of  any  court,  the  Legisla- 
ture should  pay  to  the  Judge  such  sum  as  to  them  might  appear  reasonable.] 

Mr.  G.  said,  that  there  was  a  great  diffijrence  between  the  independence  of  the 
Judges,  and  the  independence  of  the  Judicial  Department;  and  he  took  an  illustration 
from  the  condition  of  the  Judiciary  in  England.  There  the  Judges  were  deemed  to 
be  perfectly  independent,  because  their  compensation  could  not  be  diminished  during 
their  continuance  in  office.  We  had  borrowed  the  term  independence  as  applied  to 
the  Judiciary,  from  that  country,  whence  we  derived  our  Judicial  system.  Indepen- 
dence related  to  the  Judge,  not  to  the  Department.  The  British  Parliament  was  held 
to  be  omnipotent,  and  might  re-organize  the  Department  at  pleasure.  But,  to  go  as 
far  as  this  resolution  proceeded,  was  nothing  less  than  to  establish  a  privileged  corps 
in  a  free  community.  The  resolutions  provided  no  responsibility  for  a  Judge  to  any 
human  tribunal.  The  worthy  and  learned  gentleman  from  Richmond,  (Judge  Mar- 
shall,; had  said  that  a  Judge  ought  to  be  responsible  only  to  God  and  to  his  own  con- 
science. Now,  he  (Mr.  G.,)  said  that  the  Judge  ought  to  be  responsible  to  another 
tribunal— to  a  human  tribunal.  As  the  Convention  was  now  forming  a  new  Govern- 
ment, it  was  proper  it  should  have  some  guide,  some  compass  to  steer  by.  In  all  other 
parts  of  the  Constitution,  they  had  gone  on  the  principle  of  responsibility,  and  in  his 
judgment,  they  ought  to  do  the  same  thin^  in  this  case.  They  ought  not  to  convert 
the'judicial  office  into  an  office  absolutely  independent,  by  stripping  the  Judge  of  all 
responsibility.  But,  if  they  admitted  the  principle  of  responsibility,  why  clog  it,  so 
as  to  prevent  its  action  ?  One  of  the  first  objects  in  viev,^  in  calling  this  Convention, 
was  to  make  the  Judges  responsible— not  nominally,  but  really  responsible.  If  the 
Convention  should  frame  a  Constitution,  containing  the  establishment  of  a  prixilcged 
order  of  men,  they  mioht  rely  on  its  being  objectionable,  if  not  odious  to  the  people ; 
but,  this  clause  went  to  the  whole  length  of  creating  such  privileged  order.  What  was 
the  independence  of  a  Judge  ?  How  long  did  gentlemen  ask  that  it  should  continue  ? 
Surely,  it  was  neither  more  nor  less  than  this — his  security  of  receiving  his  salary 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


727 


durino-  the  continuance  of  his  oiSce.  He  did  not.  surelv,  want  to  receire  it  after  his 
ofnce  "ceased.  He  was  not  to  be  paid  for  good  behaviour — that  was  not  the  quid  pro 
QUO  he  was  paid  for  doinop  his  duties,  not  for  his  good  behaviour.  In  the  Constitu- 
tion of  the  United  States.  In  every  part  of  it,  in  order  to  avoid  sinecures,  compensa- 
lion  and  service  were  invariably  connected.  If  these  were  to  be  inseparably  cou- 
pled, when  the  service  ceased  the  compensation  should  cease.  Go(.d  behaviour  was 
the  mere  condition  of  tenure — it  was  not  the  service,  and  could  claim  no  compensation. 

When  the  ofnce  was  abolished,  let  the  Judge  receive  a  douceur;  but,  not  for  his 
good  behaviour — it  was  for  his  former  services  and  sacrifices.  He  could  not  find  tbe 
term  independent"  in  all  the  Federal  Constitution.  Jt  was  neither  in  the  Constitu- 
tion of  the  United  States,  nor  in  the  Constitution  of  "\'irginia,  nor  in  lhat  which  was 
now  to  be  proposed  for  adoption.  AH  that  was  necessary  to  Judicial  independence, 
was  that  the  Jud2:e  should  be  independent  of  ail  improper  influence  when  he  gave  his 
decision.  Independence,  as  applied  to  a  Judge,  was  a  borrowed  term.  He  v,  as  wil- 
lins'  to  ffo  as  far  as  they  went  in  England,  but  no  farther. 

When  he  had  spoken  of  establishing  a  privileged  order,  he  had  reference  to  the 
eighth  resolution. 

~''  8.  RtsoLzed.  That  Judges  mav  be  removed  from  ofnce  by  a  vote  of  the  General 
Assemblv  :  but,  two-thirds ^f  the  whole  number  of  each  House  must  concur  in  such 
vote,  and  the  cause  of  removal  shall  be  entered  on  the  Journals  of  each.  The  Judge 
aoninst  whom  the  Legislature  is  about  to  proceed,  shall  receive  notice  thereof,  accom- 
panied  with  a  copv  of  the  causes  alleged  for  his  removal,  at  least  twent}'  days  before 
the  day  on  which  either  House  of  the^General  Assembly  shall  act  thereupon." 

Here  they  found  in  the  first  part  of  the  resolution,  the  responsibility  of  a  Judge  to 
an  earthly  tribunal:  but  in  the  latter  part,  that  responsibility  was  destroyed,  by  being 
clocr^ed  and  shackled.  There  could  be  no  need  of  urging  the  necessity  of  an  earthly 
tribunal :  it  was  before  their  eyes  :  the  Judge  was  hable  to  impeachment — but  in  cer- 
tain verv  limited  cases,  where  he  had  been  guilty  of  high  crimes  and  misdemeanors. 
But  in  the  present  resolution,  provision  was  made,  or  attempted  to  be  made,  for  of- 
fences less  in  size,  but  more  frequent  in  recurrence  :  non-feasance  in  office,  non-user, 
or  mis-feasance  out  of  ofiice.  Impeachment  might  provide  for  crime,  though  in  prac- 
tice, it  was  a  cumbrous  and  circuitous  mode  of  securing  responsibility  ;  but  here  was 
a  provision  which  declared,  that  at  any  time  a  Judge  might  be  removed,  but  two- 
thirds  of  both  Houses  must  concur.  Tiiiis  was  inserted,  for  what .'  For  the  very  thing 
he  wished  to  avoid.  He  wished  to  allow  the  Legislature  power  to  remove  a  Judge, 
whenever  his  conduct  had  been  such,  that  he  became  unpopular  and  odious  to  the 
people.  He  would  give  a  tribunal,  which  might  in  such  case  remove  him.  But  not 
onlv  must  two-thirds  of  both  Houses  concur  :  the  Judge  must  receive  twenty  days  no- 
tice ;.  then  farther  days,  he  presumed,  must  be  allowed  him  for  appearance  :  then  he 
miffht  employ  a  lawyer,  and  thus  the  object  in  view  would  be  almost  sure  to  be  de- 
feated. 

What  more  was  necessary  to  render  a  Judge  completely  independent,  than  to  de- 
clare, that  his  compensation  should  neither  be  increased  nor  diminished,  duringf  his 
continuance  in  office.-  that  he  was  to  gain  or  to  lose  nothing  by  the  decision  he  should 
give  .'  When  he  spoke  of  the  independence  of  a  department,  IMr.  G.  said,  he  referred 
to  its  possessing  the  means  of  organizing  itself.  The  Legislative  Department  pos- 
sessed this  pov.-er  ;  the  Judicial  Department  did  not — it  was  in  that  respect  dependent 
upon  the  Legislature  for  its  organization.  He  was  for  having  nu  Judges  so  inde- 
pendent as  to  constitute  a  privileged  order  in  the  Commonwealth. 

Mr.  Marshall  said,  he  should  regret  to  renew  the  debate,  were  he  not  pleased 
with  the  opportunity  of  saying,  that  in  casting  his  eyes  over  the  last  debate  on  this 
Eubject,  as  it  had  been  reported  by  the  Press,  he  felt  displeased  with  one  expression 
which  had  fallen  from  himself  on  that  occasion.  A  word  had  escaped  hirn.  which 
might  be  understood  as  derogating  from  the  high  respect  he  entertained  for  the  cha- 
racter and  talents  of  a  gentleman,  (Mr.  Barbour.)  who  had  been  opposed  to  him.  He 
hoped  that  gentleman  and  the  Convention  would  believe  him  incapable  of  having  in- 
tended to  insinuate  any  thing  that  might  have  such  a  bearing.  He  well  knew^that 
gentleman  to  be  entirely  incapable  of  intentionally  misquoting  or  misrepresenting  any 
resolution  that  miglit  be  the  subject  of  discussion.  ° 

With  respect  to  the  argum.ent  the  House  had  now  heard,  he  did  not  mean,  in  any 
notice  he  should  take  of  it,  to  utter  one  sentiment  respectinor  what  had  been  done  in 
Congress  in  the  removal  of  any  Judge  from  office,  nor  on  the  provision  reported  by 
the  Judicial  Committee,  for  the  removal  of  Judges  by  two-thirds  of  the  Legislature. 
When  the  Hpuse  should  direct  its  attention  to  that  clause,  he  thouL^ht  he  sliould  find 
little  difficulty  in  satisfying  it  that  that  provision  was  abundantly  sufficient  for  the  end 
it  had  in  view.    But  that  was  not  now  the  question, 

Mr.  M.  said,  he  felt  so  much  difficulty  in  delivering  his  sentiments  on  the  subject, 
that  he  should  be  compelled  to  confine  himself  to  the  straight  and  narrow  path  that  led' 


728 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


directly  to  the  object  before  him,  witliout  departing  from  it  to  notice  any  of  the  sub- 
jects which  had  been  incidentally  presented  by  the  gentleman  from  Amelia. 

The  question  was,  whether  that  clause  of  the  first  resolution  of  the  Judicial  Com- 
mittee should  be  stricken  out,  which  declares  that  no  modification  or  abolition  of  any 
Court  shall  be  construed  to  deprive  any  Judge  thereof  of  his  office ;  but  that  such 
Judge  should  perform  any  Judicial  duties  which  the  Legislature  should  assign  him. 
To  that  single  question  he  should  confine  himself  in  what  he  had  now  to  say. 

The  gentleman  from  Amelia,  (Mr.  Giles,)  had  referred  to  the  office  of  a  Judge,  and 
the  Court  in  which  he  sat,  as  being,  for  some  reason,  indissolubly  united.  Are  office 
and  Court,  asked  Mr.  M.,  synonymes.?  Is  it  impossible  to  separate  them.?  Can 
they,  by  no  effiart,  be  sundered?  And  if  it  be  possible,  is  it  not  done  in  the  present 
case  The  resolution  makes  office  to  depend  on  good  behaviour ;  and  it  expressly  de- 
clares that  the  court  may  be  abolished,  and  yet  the  office  remain.  Why  cannot  lan- 
guage separate  them.'' 

The  Constitution  means  to  declare,  that  though  the  court  may  be  abolished,  the 
Judge  shall  continue  to  hold  his  office,  and  shall  still  perform  the  duties  of  a  Judge. 
In  what  does  the  office  of  a  Judge  consist  ?  I  have  always  understood  that  it  consists  in 
his  constitutional  capacity  to  receive  Judicial  power,  and  to  perform  Judicial  duties : 
that  he  is  brought  into  office  in  the  manner  prescribed  by  the  Constitution,  and  can 
perform  the  duties  of  his  office,  however  the  court  may  be  changed.  Whatever  may 
be  the  situation  of  the  court — however  it  may  be  named,  still  he  holds  the  office,  and 
if  the  Constitution  shall  declare  that  when  tlae  court  is  abolished,  he  shall  still  hold  it, 
there  is  no  inconsistency  in  the  declaration.  The  gentleman  says,  that  if  a  person  be 
commissioned  as  a  Judge  of  the  General  Court,  and  the  General  Court  shall  be  abo- 
lished, his  office  is  abolished  with  it — and  he  is  the  Judge  of  nothing.  But  the  General 
Court,  under  the  present  system,  is  a  Constitutional  Court,  and  cannot  be  abolished. 
We  know  that  Judges  who  were  Judges  of  the  General  Court  at  one  time,  became  Dis- 
trict Judges,  and  then  Judges  of  the  Superior  Court  in  the  county.  Should  the  General 
Court  be  abolished,  and  by  consequence,  the  office  with  it,  the  question  would  occur, 
whether  the  Judges  would  perform  any  other  duties  ;  but  if  you  declare  in  the  Constitu- 
tion that  they  shall  be  thus  capable,  the  difficulty  is  removed.  And  will  gentlemen  say, 
that  this  is  impracticable  ?  But  the  difficulty  does  not  arise  under  the  Constitution  as  it 
shall  be,  but  as  it  is  :  the  Constitution  now  declares  that  there  shall  be  a  General  Court. 
The  Legislature  can  no  more  abolish  the  General  Court  than  the  Court  of  Appeals.  But 
the  Constitution  we  are  now  engaged  in  making,  does  not  say  there  shall  be  a  Court 
of  Appeals  and  a  General  Court:  it  says  that  the  Judicial  power  shall  be  vested  in  a 
Court  of  Appeals,  in  such  Inferior  Courts  as  the  Legislature  shall  from  time  to  time 
ordain  and  establish,  and  in  the  County  Courts. 

How  will  the  commission  of  the  Judges  be  made  out.''  as  Judges  of  the  Inferior 
Courts — and  if  so,  the  Legislature  may  declare  in  which  of  the  Inferior  Courts  they 
shall  discharge  their  Judicial  duty.  Does,  then,  a  change  of  that  particular  court, 
affect  the  office  in  any  way  What  creates  the  office  .?  First,  an  election  by  the  Legis- 
lature as  the  Constitution  directs  :  Second,  a  Commission  by  the  Governor,  or  in  such 
other  form  as  the  Constitution  enjoins.  When  these  acts  have  been  performed,  the 
Judges  are  in  office.  Now,  if  the  Constitution  shall  say  that  his  office  shall  continue, 
and  he  shall  perform  Judicial  duties,  though  his  court  may  be  abolished,  does  he,  be- 
cause of  any  modification  that  may  be  made  in  that  court,  cease  to  be  a  Judge  of  the 
Inferior  Courts  ? 

Suppose  that  the  present  Constitution  had  appointed  Judges  of  the  Inferior  Courts, 
instead  of  the  General  Court,  and  their  District  Courts  had  been  abolished,  and  Su- 
perior Courts  of  counties  had  been  established  in  their  place,  would  the  Judge  of  the 
District  Court  thereby  go  out  of  office  ?  You  diversify  his  duties,  and,  therefore,  his 
office  is  to  be  abolished !  If  I  understand  the  Constitution  a-right,  the  Legislature 
cannot,  by  law,  create  the  office  of  a  Judge.  It  can  create  Courts,  and  may  change 
them  at  will :  it  may  give  them  one  name  or  another  name,  it  may  assign  them  one 
Judge,  or  two  Judges,  or  three  Judges:  it  may  order  them  to  sit  here,  or  to  sit  there 
— it  may  give  them  a  district  of  several  counties,  or  may  direct  them  to  sit  in  every 
county  :  still  they  will  continue  to  be  "  Inferior  Courts,"  and  the  Judges  must  perform 
any  duties  the  Legislature  shall  assign  them. 

Where  is  the  difficulty  .? 

The  question  constantly  recurs— do  you  mean  that  the  Judges  shall  be  removable 
at  the  will  of  the  Legislature  The  gentleman  talks  of  responsibility.  Respon- 
sibility to  what  ?  to  the  will  of  the  Legislature  can  there  be  no  responsibility,  unless 
your  judges  shall  be  removable  at  pleasure  ?  will  nothing  short  of  this.satisfy  gentle- 
men Then,  indeed,  there  is  an  end  to  independence.  The  tenure  during  good  be- 
haviour, is  a  mere  imposition  on  the  public  belief— a  sound  that  is  kept  to  the  ear— and 
nothing  else.  The  consequences  must  present  themselves  to  every  mind.  There  can 
be  no  member  of  this  body  who  does  not  feel  them.  If  your  Judges  are  to  be  re- 
movable at  the  will  of  the  Legislature,  all  that  you  look  for  from  fidelity,  from  know- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


729 


ledge,  from  capacity,  is  gone  and  gone  forever.  All  chance  of  bringing  men  upon 
the  bench,  who  know  as  much  as  lawyers  at  the  bar,  must  be  given  up  :  there  is  an 
end  to  it.  No  respectable  lawyer  will  come  to  the  bench,  if,  for  the  slightest  cause, 
so  soon  as  he  has  separated  himself  from  the  bar — so  soon  as  he  has  incapacitated 
himself  to  earn  a  comfortable  support  for  his  family  there,  he  may  be  thrown  out  of 
an  office  he  had  been  told  was  to  be  permanent,  and  driven  away  to  poverty  and  all 
the  humiliating  consequences  "that  must  ensue. 

Mr.  M.  said,  he  was  well  assured  this  was  not  what  the  Convention  wished  to  do. 
But  will  it  not,  asked  he,  produce  this  state  of  things,  if  by  any  change  or  modifica- 
tion of  the  court,  the  Judge  may  be  put  out  of  office?  "What  necessity  can  there  be 
for  this  Do  gentlemen  believe  that  the  duties  of  the  Inferior  Courts  will  diminish.'' 
That  there  will  not  always  be  as  much  Judicial  duty  as  you  will  have  Judges  to  per- 
form it.  If  this  is  the  fact,  and  surely  it  is,  if  we  may  reason  from  past  experience, 
v/hy  make  a  mere  transfer  of  duties  to  work  a  removal  from  office 

Can  any  gentleman  say  that  the  Legislature  will  never  act  in  this  manner  .''  Look 
at  what  we  are  doing.  This  Convention  is  removing  every  Judge  from  office  at  one 
sweep.  Are  gentlemen  sure  the  Legislature  will  never  do  the  same  thing.'  Is  there 
any  call  directed  to  us  which  will  not  sound  as  loud  in  the  ears  of  the  Legislature  ? 
Can  we,  while  at  one  blow  we  are  dashing  every  Judge  in  the  State  fromliis  office, 
say  that  the  Legislature  will  never  remove  them  in  like  manner  hereafter  ?  Sir,  we 
should  soon  see  realized  the  fears  which  are  entertained  by  some  amongst  us. 

I  cannot  sit  down  without  noticing  the  morality  of  the  course  recommended  by 
this  measure.  Gentlemen  talk  of  sinecures,  and  privileged  orders — with  a  view,  as 
it  would  seem,  to  cast  odium  on  those  who  are  in  office.  You  seduce  a  lawyer  from 
his  practice,  by  which  he  is  earning  a  comfortable  independence,  by  promising  him  a 
certain  support  for  life,  unless  he  shall  be  guilty  of  misconduct  in  his  office.  And 
after  thus  seducing  him,  when  his  independence  is  gone,  and  the  means  of  supporting 
his  family  relinquished,  you  will  suffer  him  to  be  displaced  and  turned  loose  on  the 
world  with  the  odious  brand  of  sinecure-pensioner — privileged  order — put  upon  him, 
as  a  lazy  drone  who  seeks  to  live  upon  the  labour  of  others.  This  is  the  course  you 
are  asked  to  pursue. 

Some  allusion  has  been  made  to  the  tenure  of  office  during  good  behaviour  in  Eng- 
land ;  and  to  the  power  of  Parliament.  In  England  they  have  no  written  Constitu- 
tion ;  and  yet  the  Judges  consider  themselves  quite  as  secure  as  they  are  here,  where 
we  have  one.  Parliament  Avill  always  maintain  their  independence,  in  order  to  save 
the  people  from  the  power  of  the  crown.  The  crown  is  the  source  of  apprehension: 
and  the  Legislature  will  never  unite  with  it  in  removing  the  Judges  from  their  office. 

We  have  been  told  this  arrangement  will  destroy  all  responsibility  in  the  Judges. 
Are  there  no  other  means  to  make  a  Judge  responsible,  but  to  make  him  removable 
from  office  at  the  will  of  the  Legislature  ?  If  the  provisions  of  the  seventh  and  eighth 
resolutions  are  not  sufficient  to  secure  responsibility,  we  can  make  them  so  when  they 
shall  be  the  object  of  our  attention.  They  are  not  at  present  before  us.  I  believe 
they  are  now  sufficient  for  that  end  ;  if  not,  they  can  be  made  so.  But  is  it  not  new 
doctrine  to  declare,  that  the  Legislature  by  merely  changing  the  name  of  a  court  or 
the  place  of  its  meeting,  may  remove  any  Judge  from  his  office  ? 

The  question  to  be  decided  is,  and  it  is  one  to  which  we  must  come,  whether  the 
Judges  shall  be  permanent  in  their  office,  or  shall  be  dependent  altogether  upon  the 
breath  of  the  Legislature. 

Mr.  Giles  again  rose,  and  after  an  apology  for  troubling  the  Hoilse,  said,  that  if  he 
had  had  any  doubts  before,  of  the  impropriety  of  the  clause,  the  gentleman  who  had 
just  taken  his  seat  had  relieved  him  from  them  all.  He  felt  fo"  the  learning  and 
standing  and  personal  excellence  of  that  gentleman  so  high  a  degree  of  respect,  that 
he  was  willing  to  throw  himself  into  the  back  ground,  as  to  any  weight  to  be  attached 
to  his  own  opinion,  and  rely  exclusively  on  the  merits  he  could  shew  pertained  to  it, 
and  this  he  would  endeavour  to  do  so  plainly,  as  not  to  be  misunderstood.  The  gen- 
tleman from  Richmond  had  told  the  Convention  that  an  off.ce  during  good  behaviour, 
was  an  office  for  hfe.  This  he  denied.  There  was  no  such  word  in  a  Judge's  com- 
mission. 

No  such  pledge  was  given  him  :  was  that  the  real  tenure  of  his  office  ?  No,  it  was 
good  behaviour  and  the  continuance  of  the  office.  So  long  his  salary  was  to  be  sure, 
and  no  longer. 

He  thought  the  gentleman  had  not  succeeded  in  showing  that  it  was  not  an 
anomaly  to  have  the  court  out  of  being,  and  an  office  pertain  to  the  court  in  being. 
The  gentleman  had  asked  if  there  were  no  terms  by  which  this  could  be  done  ?  He 
answered,  no  :  it  was  an  anomaly  in  terms.  He  had,  however,  such  high  respect  for 
that  gentleman's  standing,  that  he  always  doubted  his  own  opinion  when  put  in  op- 
position to  that  of  the  gentleman.  The  gentleman  had  undertaken  to  show  that  a 
man  m.ay  be  a  Judge  of  the  District  Court  after  the  General  Court,  of  which  he  had 
been  a  Judge,  should  be  at  an  end.    He  told  the  Convention  that  the  General  Court 

92 


730 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


was  a  Constitutional  Court ;  but  was  it  not  surrendering  the  argument  to  go  back  to 
the  old  Constitution?  By  the  Constitution  now  proposed,  the  Legislature  was  not  to 
be  trammelled.  The  gentleman  had  asked  whether  Judges  of  the  General  Court 
would  not  perform  District  Court  services  ? 

Judge  Marshall  here  explained  :  he  had,  he  perceived,  been  totally  misconceived. 
He  had  said,  that  under  the  existing  Constitution  the  General  Court  was  a  Constitu- 
tional Court  and  could  not  be  abolished  :  but  that  under  the  new  Constitution  the 
Judges  of  the  Inferior  Courts  would  continue  to  be  such,  though  some  change  might 
be  made  in  their  sphere  of  action — and  he  had  asked  whether,  because  they  should 
cease  to  perform  District  Court  service,  they  must,  therefore,  cease  to  hold  their 
office  ? 

Mr.  Giles  resumed  :  He  was  very  sorry  he  had  misconceived  the  gentleman  :  but, 
after  listening  to  the  explanation  he  had  now  given,  the  impression  on  his  mind  re- 
mained the  same  still.  He  insisted  that  they  were  not  to  reason  from  the  General 
Court  existing  under  a  former  Constitution,  to  a  Constitution  containing  no  such 
court  within  its  provisions  ;  and  one  great  object  of  forming  which  Constitution,  was 
to  get  rid  of  that  court.  He  denied  that  a  Judge  could  perform  duty  in  any  other 
court  but  that  to  which  he  was  commissioned.  He  could  not  have  his  commission  to 
one  court  and  his  duties  in  another.  Supposing  the  Judge  to  be  incompetent,  (as  was 
known  to  be  the  case,  and  long  to  have  been  the  case  with  at  least  one  Judge  whom 
he  should  not  name,)  could  the  Legislature  assign  such  a  Judge  duties  to  perform  in 
another  court — duties  to  an  incompetent  Judge  What  duties  Could  he  receive  any 
at  all  ?  None  ;  then  his  office  was  vox  et  'prcBterea  nihil. 

He  begged  to  call  the  attention  of  the  House  to  what  was  the  real  genuine  inde- 
pendence of  a  Judge  in  Great  Britain.  It  was  the  security  that  his  compensation 
should  not  be  diminished  during  his  continuance  in  office.  Judges  in  England  were 
deemed  to  be  very  independent  even  before  the  reign  of  William  and  Mary,  when 
their  offices  expired  with  the  demise  of  the  crown.  The  law  had  since  been  changed, 
and  they  now  survived — but  it  was  perfect  independence  to  be  assured  of  an  undi- 
minished support  during  the  continuance  of  their  office.  This  was  the  true  indepen- 
dence of  a  British  Judge.  Strike  out  the  present  clause,  and  a  Judge  in  America 
would  still  be  in  a  better  situation  than  those  of  England. 

But  as  the  gentleman  had  spoken  of  hardships  should  the  clause  be  stricken  out, 
he  would  offer  the  amendment  he  had  before  read.  It  was  no  great  favourite  of  his, 
but  he  was  willing  to  go  that  far,  and  it  was  farther  than  any  provision  had  ever  gone 
on  this  subject  under  the  sun. 

The  gentleman  seemed  to  think  that  he  had  used  terms  calculated,  if  not  intended, 
to  throw  reproach  upon  the  Judges  in  office.  He  was  not  conscious  of  having  used 
any  terms  that  reflected  in  the  least  degree  on  their  honour  and  integrity.  But  it 
did  seem  to  him,  that  by  the  resolutions  taken  together,  responsibility  was  rather 
avoided  than  sought  to  be  secured.  Had  the  gentleman  told  the  House  in  what  it 
consisted  Where  was  it.?  If  there  was  such  a  thing,  he  presumed  it  v/as  describable. 
For  himself  he  could  not  see  even  a  shadow  of  it.  The  gentleman  had  insisted  that 
there  was  the  same  responsibility  in  this,  as  in  other  cases  :  and  here  was  the  greatest 
point  of  difficulty  between  the  worthy  gentleman  and  himself.  When  a  representa- 
tive returned  to  his  constituents,  did  they  cite  him .?  did  they  give  him  twenty  days 
notice  to  appear  and  answer  ?  No  such  thing.  They  told  him  at  once — Sir,  we  don't 
like  you.  And  that  was  enough — they  turned  him  out  forthwith,  and  held  themselves 
bound  to  assign  no  reason  to  him  for  so  doing.  But,  in  the  case  of  a  Judge  there 
must  be  a  majority  of  two-thirds  of  both  Houses  of  the  Legislature,  and  sixty  days 
notice ;  and  by  the  time  the  Judge  appeared,  the  session  would  be  over.  The  resolu- 
tion first  laid  down  a  principle  and  then  defeated  it.  But  in  the  case  of  a  representa- 
tive, the  responsibility  was  real — and  its  operation  prompt  and  efficient.  The  voter 
might  say  to  the  representative  as  Tom  Brown  said  to  Dr.  Fell, 

I  do  not  like  thee,  Dr.  Fell, 
The  reason  why  I  cannot  tell : 
But  'tis  a  fact  I  know  full  well, 
I  do  not  like  thee,  Dr.  Fell. 

He  was  willing  to  risk  his  liberty  thus  far — (and  if  a  human  being  existed,  who  was 
more  jealous  of  it,  he  had  yet  to  see-  him,)  if  a  Judge  became  odious  to  the  people, 
let  him  be  removed  from  office. 

Mr.  G.  concluded  by  this  remark,  that  the  House  had  exhibited  on  the  other  side 
the  very  acme  of  Judicial  talent  in  the  country  ;  and  yet  it  had  produced  no  convic- 
tion in  his  mind,  and,  he  believed,  would  not  in  theirs;  on  the  contrary,  it  had  but 
rivetted  all  the  impressions  he  had  previously  entertained. 

The  question  was  then  put  on  striking  out^  and  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  fol- 
lows ; 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


731 


Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Giles,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode, 
Clopton,  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith, 
Baxter,  Claiborne,  Randolph,  Osborne,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington, 
Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  See,  Morgan,  Camp- 
bell of  Brooke,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders, 
Cabell,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson  and  Bayly — 44. 

JVbc5— Messrs.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Brodnax,  Marshall, 
Tyler,  Nicholas,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  Miller",  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Ur- 
quhart,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Mercer, 
Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  INaylor,  Donald- 
son, Boyd,  Pendleton,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Summers.  Dod- 
dridge, Wilson,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Prentis,  Branch, 
Townes,  Stuart,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Upshur  and  Pernn — 52. 

So  the  Convention  refused  to  strike  out  the  clause  providing  for  the  continuance 
of  the  Judge  in  office  after  his  court  should  have  been  modified  or  abolished. 

Mr.  Johnson  threw  out  the  suggestion  for  the  reflection  of  gentlemen,  whether  the 
resolutions  they  had  adopted,  had  not  an  effect,  not  contemplated  or  intended  :  would 
not  the  acceptance  of  the  Constitution  by  the  people,  at  once,  ipso  facto,  abolish  all 
the  courts  of  the  State,  but  the  Court  of  Appeals,  and  the  County  Courts  ^  This  ought 
to  be  provided  against. 

Mr.  Cabell  proposed  to  amend  the  resolution  by  striking  out  the  word  office,  and  in- 
serting the  word  salary. 

But  it  would  not  be  received,  as  all  the  words  of  the  resolution  had  been  adopted, 
bj  a  refusal  to  strike  them  out. 

The  House  then  adjourned. 


THURSDAY,  December  24,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Kerr  of  the  Baptist  Church. 

The  question  before  the  Convention,  was  on  agreeing  to  the  first  resolution  of  the 
Committee  on  the  Judiciary,  as  amended  the  day  before. 

The  first  resolution  of  the  Judicial  Committee  came  up,  when  Mr.  Thompson 
moved  to  amend  the  following  clause: 

"  The  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals,  and  of  the  Inferior  Courts,  shall  hold  their 
offices  during  good  behaviour,  or  until  removed  in  the  manner  prescribed  in  this  Con- 
stitution ;  and  shall,  at  the  same  time,  hold  no  other  office,  appointment,  or  public 
trust;  and  the  acceptance  thereof  by  either  of  them,  shall  vacate  his  Judicial  office." 
Mr.  Thompson  moved  to  insert  after  the  word  "  Constitution,"  the  following:  "  But 
no  person  who  shall  have  arrived  at  the  age  of  years,  shall  be  appointed  to,  or 

continue  in,  the  office  of  Judge  in  this  State." 

Mr.  Thompson  said,  he  should  content  himself  with  a  very  brief  exposition  of  the 
reasons  upon  which  he  rested  the  merits  of  his  amendment,  if  merits  it  had,  and  its 
claims  to  the  favourable  consideration  of  the  Convention.  He  doubted  not  that  the 
question  it  presented,  had  been  considered  by  every  member  of  the  body,  and  perhaps 
every  one  was  prepared  to  vote  upon  it.  It  was  considered  and  discussed  in  the  Ju- 
diciary Committee,  of  which  he,  Mr.  T.  had  the  honour  of  being  a  member,  but  had 
not  as  yet  been  agitated  in  Committee  of  the  Whole,  or  in  the  House.  This  con- 
sideration could  alone  induce  him,  at  this  late  period  of  this  protracted  session,  to  de- 
tain this  body  with  a  single  observation.  Mr.  T.  said  he  was  well  aware  that  weighty 
objections  might  be  urged  to  the  amendment.  He  had  well  considered,  felt  the  full 
force  of  and  duly  appreciated  these  objections.  By  the  adoption  of  this  provision,  it 
was  most  true  we  should  sometimes  be  deprived  of  the  services  of  a  competent  and 
meritorious  officer,  and  as  otlen  as  we  were  so  deprived,  should  subject  to  privation 
and  hardship,  the  disbanded  officer  himself,  should  he  chance  to  be  in  straitened  cir- 
cumstances, and  bereft  of  the  means  of  a  livelihood;  but,  said  Mr.  T.  these  are  the 
unavoidable  consequences  of  any  general  rule.  He  was  willing  to  encounter  these 
inconveniences,  these  evils,  for  the  positive  good  which  he  believed  the  amendment 
would  accomplish.  In  most  situations  it  w^as  the  office  of  human  prudence  to  choose 
between  evils,  and  this  was  one  of  those  occasions.  All  would  admit,  that  without 
this  provision  we  were  exposed  to  the  evil  of  superannuated  Judges.  We  had  ex- 
perienced it  and  were  suffering  under  it  at  this  very  moment.  This  would  not  be 
denied  by  any  one.  And  for  his  part,  Mr.  T.  considered  the  removal  by  age  of  twenty 
good  Judges  a  lesser  evil  than  the  retention  for  the  shortest  time  of  one  rendered  im- 
becile and  incompetent  by  age  for  the  duties  of  the  station.  The  evils  which  the 
latter  might  do,  in  the  sacrifice  of  the  dearest  rights  of  one  citizen,  the  sacrifice  of 


732 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


his  life,  liberty,  reputation  or  property,  were  irremediable  :  the  judgments  by  which 
these  were  to  be  affected,  perhaps  irrevocable  or  irreversable.  The  evils  of  the  re- 
moval of  even  competent  Judges,  were  of  a  different  kind.  They  were  not  remedy- 
less.  A  good  officer,  if  not  the  best,  or  so  good  as  the  removed,  might  be  found  to 
supply  his  place.  It  surely  would  not  be  said,  Virginia  was  so  poor  in  judicial  talent, 
that  there  was  at  any  time  an  impracticability  in  getting  men  between  the  age  of  ma- 
turity and  sixty,  sixty-five,  or  seventy,  competent  to  hll  the  Judicial  offices  of  the 
State.  Mr.  T.  said  he  mentioned  these  several  ages,  because  he  hoped  the  blank 
would  be  filled  with  some  one  of  them,  if  the  amendment  were  adopted.  Mr.  T. 
thought  in  the  general,  that  men  after  passing  either  of  these  periods,  were  incompe- 
tent to  the  profitable  discharge  of  the  active  duties  of  life,  and  for  public  station  :  he 
thought  that  period  of  our  lives  should  be  devoted  to  repose,  to  the  enjoyment  of  the 
otimn  cum  dignitate.  So  far  from  feeling  any  irreverence  for  age,  it  was  because  of 
his  reverence  for  it  that  he  wished  to  withdraw  the  declining  years  of  mortal  exis- 
tence from  the  busy,  bustling^  scenes  and  the  cares  and  turmoils  of  official  station. 
The  sequestered  shade  of  retirement  was  congenial  to  the  feelings  of  an  old  man,  and 
to  such  emphatically,  "  the  post  of  honour  is  a  private  station."  ~Mr.  T.  said  he  could 
readily  anticipate  another  objection  to  his  amendment,  and  that  is,  that  it  was  un- 
necessary— that  we  had  by  another  provision  armed  the  Legislature,  two-thirds  of  each 
house  concurring,  with  the  power  of  amotion  from  office,  and  that  in  the  event  of 
the  case  occurring,  the  Legislature  would  remove  a  superannuated  Judge.  Mr.  T. 
thought  that  power  an  inefhcacious  remedy  for  the  evil,  because  it  involved  the  exer- 
cise of  so  invidious  and  so  delicate  a  duty,  that  he  feared  its  inexecution  on  the  part 
of  the  Legislature.  To  remove  an  aged  Judge,  whose  only  crime  was  age  and  infir- 
mity, visited  in  his  declining  years  with  "  want  and  incurable  disease,"  would  require 
the  exercise  of  that  Roman  virtue,  that  would  stimulate  a  father  to  sacrifice  a  son  for 
the  good  of  the  republic — that  virtue  which  we  may  admire  in  story,  but  we  cannot 
expect  to  pervade  the  actions  of  men  in  these  latter  times.  Mr.  T.  believed,  that 
with  the  Legislature  the  softer  and  more  amiable  virtues  of  compassion  and  sympathy 
for  suffering  and  distress  would  prevail  over  a  sense  of  public  duty,  and  over  the 
public  interests.  The  vital  and  paramount  interests  of  a  speedy  and  faithful  admin- 
istration of  justice  would  yield  to  the  moving  considerations  of  individual  hardship. 
Mr.  T.  believed  the  power  of  amotion  referred  to,  would  only  be  resorted  to  and  ef- 
fectually exercised,  when  the  Judge  was  guilty  of  some  fault  or  transgression  below 
the  degree  of  an  impeachable  offence — such  as  slothfulness,  inattention,  4&c. ;  that  is, 
was  guilty  of  some  wilful  mis-user  or  non-user  of  his  office,  and  would  not  be  effica- 
cious for  the  reasons  just  assigned  to  the  purposes  sought  to  be  accomplished  by  this 
amendment.  Mr.  T.  said  many  reasons  could  be  offered  in  support  of  the  amend- 
ment. He  would  not  detain  the  House  with  them  all,  but  would  content  himself  with 
one,  and  in  conclusion  with  a  reference  to  the  example  and  experience  of  other 
States,  which  were  entitled  to  respect,  if  not  to  imitation.  The  reason  to  which  he 
alluded,  was  this  :  He  believed  the  limit  of  age,  would  have  a  happy  effect  upon  the 
Judge  himself,  whilst  in  office.  The  present  tenure  being  for  life,  no  matter  how 
protracted,  had  a  tendency  to  render  the  incumbent  careless  of  improvement  in  that 
science  which  was  to  qualify  him  for  the  station.  Mr.  T.  said,  it  was  certainly  true; 
it  could  not  have  escaped  the  notice  of  the  most  casual  observer ;  he  believed  it 
would  be  confessed  by  all,  that  most  of  our  Judges  commenced  the  retrograde  march 
of  intellect  so  soon  as  they  were  elected  :  to  this  remark  there  were  but  few  excep- 
tions. There  must  be  some  reason  for  it.  Mr.  T.  thought  it  worthy  of  the  serious 
consideration  of  this  Convention,  whether  this  life-estate  in  the  office,  had  not  the 
direct  tendency  to  produce  this  effect.  Mr.  T.  said,  if  he  knew  himself,  he  yielded 
to  no  man  in  veneration  for  Judicial  excellence — if  any  thing  earthly  could  be  an  ob- 
ject of  idolatry  with  him,  it  was  the  spotless  ermine  of  the  able,  the  urbane,  and  the 
impartial  Judge.  He  would  be  the  last  man  to  advocate  a  periodical  election  of  the 
Judiciary,  or  to  do  any  thing  knowingly  to  imj  air  their  independence  :  I  mean  a  pro- 
per and  just  independence — but  not  irresponsibility.  Mr.  T.  would  submit  to  this 
Convention,  if  by  fixing  this  limit,  this  good  effect  would  not  be  produced.  The  un- 
certainty of  the  limits  ever  applying,  surely  would  leave  his  independence  unim- 
paired— yet  the  possibility  of  its  application,  to  each  and  every  case,  would  create  an 
incentive  to  mental  industry  and  exertion — an  inducement  to  improvement  in  legal 
attainments,  and  a  laudable  emulation  to  build  up  a  reputation  for  talents  and  for 
worth  :  for  the  Judge  would  reflect,  that  the  day  might  arrive,  when  he  would  again 
be  thrown  back  upon  professional  exertions  for  support,  or  what  would  be  a  more  pro- 
bable, and  I  confess,  to  me  as  well  as  to  the  Judge,  more  agreeable  anticipation,  when, 
if  he  needed  the  aid  of  his  country,  he  would  appeal  to  its  gratitude,  (and  if  he  de- 
served it,  would  never  appeal  in  vain,)  for  permission  to  serve  that  country  in  some 
other  station,  where  he  could  render  the  quid -pro  quo,  for  the  means  of  subsistence. 

Mr.  T.  said,  we  had  the  example  of  other  States  in  favor  of  this  amendment.  The 
provision  had  prevailed  in  New  York  from  the  foundation  of  the  republic.    It  was  en- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


733 


grafted  on  her  first  Constitutiou,  had  abided  the  experience  of  more  than  half  a  cen- 
turv.  and  has  received  the  most  decided  approbation  of  the  Convention  of  1821.  by  its 
incorporation  into  the  New  Constitution.  The  Judicial  term  is  there  limited  to  the 
ao-e  of  60,  and  so  has  been  from  the  beginning  of  the  Commonwealth.  True  it  is, 
that  Kent,  Spencer  and  i;thers;  were  the  victims  of  this  constitutional  ostracism  True, 
the  State  was  deprived  of  their  services  in  their  Judicial  capacity;  but  it  is  not  true, 
that  the  citizens  of  New  York  have  ever  repented  of  the  consequences  of  tliat  provi- 
sion of  their  Constitution,  nor  was  any  serious  evil  suffered  in  their  Judicial  establish- 
ment— their  places  were  well  supplied,  at  least  to  the  satisfaction  of  the  public,  which, 
after  all.  is  the  most  important  consideration  in  a  Government — which,  like  ours,  rests 
upon  public  opinion.  And,  so  fai-  from  the  State's  losing  their  services  wholly,  the 
one  is  now  serving  her  in  the  Councils  of  the  Nation,  and  the  other,  perhaps,  as  use- 
fully in  private  station,  as  on  the  bench.  The  Convention  will  understand  the  last 
allusion  to  be  to  Chancellor  Kent,  and  to  his  Commentaries,  the  fruit  of  his  retire- 
ment. So.  in  Virginia,  if  the  existence  of  such  a  rule,  had  prematurely  deprived  us 
of  the  useful  Judicial  labours  of  a  Wythe,  a  Pendleton,  or  a  Roane,  their  services  in 
other  stations  could  not  have  been  lost,  and  we  should  have  been  well  compensated 
for  their  removal,  by  an  escape  from  the  sore  evil  of  superannuated  Judges.  To  de- 
sio-nate  the  instances  would  be  as  invidious  as  it  is  unnecessary,  as  tiie  cases  are 
known  to  every  member  of  this  body.  The  example  of  New  York,  said  Mr.  T.,  has 
been  copied  in'the  Constitutions  of  at  least  three  other  States,  if  no  more.  In  Mis- 
souri, the  limit  is  sixty-five  ;  in  Alabama,  seventy,  and  in  Mississippi,  sixty-five.  Mr. 
T.  would  be  satisfied  with  either  of  these  ages,  or  he  would  take  sixty-three,  the  grand 
climacteric  of  the  ancients.  He  concluded,  by  expressing  a  hope,  that  the  amend- 
ment would  prevail. 

Mr.  Henderson  moved  to  amend  the  amendment  of  Mr,  Thompson,  by  adding  the 
words  : 

Unless  he  shall  be  re-elected  by  the  Legislature,  in  which  event,  he  may  serve 
for  years  more,  and  no  longer." 

ISlr.  Leiffh  suggested  a^ different  collocation  of  the  words,  so  as  to  make  the  whole 
resolution  Intelligible  as  amended. 

After  some  conversation  on  this  subject,  and  a  modification  in  consequence, 
Mr.  Powell  suggested  to  the  mover  of  the  amendment,  whether  the  case  he  wished 
to  provide  for.  was  not  capable  of  complete  remedy  under  the  eighth  resolution.  If  a 
Jud<re,  whether  from  age  or  any  other  cause,  was  notoriously  incompetent  to  the  right 
discharge  of  his  duty,  the  Legislature  had  power,  under  tliat  resolution,  to  remove 
him  from  office. 

Mr.  Thompson  replied,  that  that  view  had  occurred  to  himself;  it  was  very  true 
the  Legislature  might  remove  such  a  Judge  :  but  it  would  be  an  invidious  and  odioua 
task,  and  one  they  would  always  approach  with  reluctance.  He  wished  to  shield  the 
Legislature  from  such  an  unpleasant  situation,  and  let  the  Judg-e  go  out  by  the  expi- 
ration of  his  oiE.ce,  and  his  Constitutional  disability.  This  would  save  the  feelings  of 
ail  parties. 

Mr,  Henderson  said,  that  the  observation  of  the  gentleman  from  Amherst  weis  wor- 
thy of  great  consideration.  -Aiter  sixty  or  seventy  years,  the  intellectual  faculties 
usually  began  to  be  impaired :  3-et  there  were  men  v,-ho  retained  them  in  their  fullest 
vigour  to  a  much  later  period.  The  illustrious  Judge  Pendleton,  that  ornament  of  the 
Virginia  bench,  was  an  instance  in  point.  Such  men  would  be  removed  by  the  un- 
sparing amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Amherst :  but  by  that  which  he  had  of- 
fered, provision  was  made  for  retaining  their  services  to  the  State.  It  was  calculated 
to  retain  those  rare  and  higlily-gifted  men.  whose  mental  power  seemed  never  to  be 
exhausted  while  even  a  shred  of  that  which  was  physical  remained  :  of  whom  it  might 
with  truth  be  said, 

The  soul's  dark  cottage  battered  and  decayed, 

Liets  in  more  light  through  chinks  which  time  has  made. 

Mr.  Thompson  was  opposed  to  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun, 
(Mr.  Henderson.)  because  its  effect  would  be  in  a  great  degree  so  to  qualify  the  rule 
as  to  destroy,  if  not  altogether,  very  materially,  its  efficacy.  It  was  an  exception  in- 
compatible with  the  principle  of  the  amendment;  and  was,  moreover,  obnoxious  to 
all  the  objections  of  a  periodically  elected  Judiciary.  He,  therefore,  trusted  it  would 
not  be  adopted. 

Mr.  Leigh  opposed  the  amendment.  He  said,  it  was  an  attempt  to  introduce,  in. 
Viro:inia,  an  expedient,  which  was  (he  believed)  first  devised  in  the  State  of  New 
York,  but  which  has  since  been  adopted  by  some  one  or  two  of  the  new  States — why,, 
if  resrard  were  had  to  the  lights  of  experience,  he  was  utterly  unable  to  comprehend. 
It  is  "certainly  true,  that  the  faculties  of  men  decay  with  extreme  age — but  it  is  equally 
true,  that  the  point  of  time  in  their  lives,  when  this  takes  place,  is  as  various,  in  dif- 


734 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


ferent  men,  as  the  colour  of  tlieir  eyes.  Lord  Mansfield  was  born  in  1705 ;  he  was  ap- 
pointed Chief  Justice  of  the  Court  of  King's  Bench  in  1756 ;  and  he  resigned  his  seat 
in  1788,  being  then  eighty-three  years  old.  I  pray  the  gentleman  from  Amherst,  (Mr. 
Thompson,)  to  read,  or  rather  (supposing  he  has  read  it,)  to  remember,  the  judgment 
of  the  Court  of  Exchequer  Chamber,  in  the  case  of  Sutton  and  Johnstone,  in  the 
first  volume  of  the  Term  Reports ;  which  is  said  to  be  the  only  Judicial  opinion  ex- 
tant written  by  that  great  Judge ;  all  the  others  having  been  taken  down  by  reporters, 
and  composed  from  their  notes  :  that  is  an  opinion  written  by  Lord  Mansfield  himself, 
a  short  time  before  his  resignation  :  and  if  the  gentleman  can  find  on  the  record  of  Ju- 
dicial proceedings,  in  any  age  or  country,  a  more  able,  more  lucid,  more  eloquent,  or 
more  classical  composition,  I  shall  be  obliged  to  him  to  point  it  out  to  me,  that  I  may 
have  the  pleasure  of  reading  it.  It  is,  so  far  as  I  can  judge,  one  of  the  finest  speci- 
mens of  Judicial  eloquence,  as  well  as  ability,  any  where  to  be  found,  in  ancient  or  in 
modern  learning.  Lord  Mansfield  resigned  his  seat,  as  I  said,  in  1788 — not,  if  I  am 
rightly  informed,  because  of  any  decay  of  his  mental  powers — but  from  a  defect  of 
sight,  such  as  no  glasses  could  remedy,  so  as  to  enable  him  to  discharge  the  duties  of 
his  office.  His  mighty  stream  of  thought,  bound  by  the  frost  of  eighty  winters,  was 
as  full  or  fuller  than  in  the  summer  of  his  life,  though  not  so  flowing.  To  me  it  seems, 
from  a  careful  observation  of  his  ofiicial  history,  that  he  was  as  able  in  1788,  as  in 
1756.  At  the  time  of  the  argument  and  discussion  of  the  famous  case  concerning  the 
reversal  of  the  outlawry  of  John  Wilkes  (in  17()8  or  9, 1  think,  1  am  pretty  sure  it  was 
before  the  first  of  the  letters  of  Junius  appeared)  he  himself  mentioned,  that  he  was 
then  turned  of  sixty.  Now,  according  to  the  New  York  rule,  he  would  have  been 
compelled  to  leave  the  bench  in  1768 ;  and  tlie  world  would  have  been  deprived — I 
do  not  say  England,  but  the  world — the  civilized  world  would  have  been  deprived 
of  the  benefit  of  the  last  twenty-eight  years  of  his  Judicial  life,  and  especially  of  that 
system  of  commercial  law,  which  he  was  then  building  up  and  lived  almost  to  perfect; 
which  will  bear  comparison  with  the  Civil  Code,  or  the  new  Imperial  Code  of  France, 
or  any  other  on  earth,  for  the  justness  of  its  principles,  and  even  for  its  symmetry ; 
which,  in  short,  in  all  its  parts,  bears  the  impress  of  a  vast  and  various  and  beneficent 
genius. 

I  have  been  at  the  pains,  since  this  Convention  question  was  started,  or  rather  re- 
vived in  1824,  to  examine  the  chronological  lists  of  the  English  Judges.  The  mass 
of  business  despatched  by  those  twelve  Judges  of  England,  almost  surpasses  belief. 
It  certainly  transcends  beyond  all  comparison,  the  mass  of  Judicial  business  in  the 
Commonwealth  of  Virginia.  (I  do  not  say  in  the  United  States,  for  we  are  a  more 
litigious  people  in  proportion  to  our  wealth,  than  any  other  in  the  civihzed  world.) 
They  have  jurisdiction  of  all  causes,  where  the  value  in  controversy  exceeds  forty^ 
shillino-s.  They  generally,  I  believe,  take  their  seats  on  the  bench  at  nine  o'clock  iri 
the  morning,  and  continue  sitting  till  late  in  the  afternoon.  They  then  take  their 
places  in  the  House  of  Lords,  as  a  sort  of  "advisory  Council,"  (as  we  should  phrase 
it)  in  cases  in  which  law  questions  may  be  involved :  and  really,  Sir,  from  the  days  of 
Holt  to  this  time,  it  is  astonishing  to  see  what  a  large  proportion  of  them  have  been 
over  seventy  and  even  seventy-five  j'ears  of  age.  These  old  men  transact  such  a 
mass  of  business,  as  seems  unaccountable — especially  to  us,  who  look  at  the  mode  in 
which  business  is  done  here  ;  who  reflect  on  the  tardiness  of  our  Judicial  proceedings, 
owing  to  reasons  well  known  to  the  bar,  at  least  to  some  of  them,  or,  if  not,  well 
known  to  the  bench.  A  great  part  of  the  blame  certainly  rests  on  the  bar.  I  give 
this  as  my  experience,  and  take  my  full  share  of  the  blame. 

But  let  us  proceed  farther.  Suppose  the  New  York  rule  had  been  the  rule  in  Vir- 
ginia :  how  would  it  have  worked  ?  At  what  period  would  Wythe  have  been  expelled 
from  the  bench?  I  know,  it  was  supposed,  that  the  force  of  his  mind  was  much  im- 
paired by  old  age ;  but  I  have  heard  those  who  knew  him  best,  and  were  most  com- 
petent to  judge,  say,  that  age  had  only  unfitted  him  for  the  drudgery  and  details  of 
the  station  he  held — (let  it  be  remembered,  that  that  station,  till  shortly  before  his 
death,  was  that  of  High  Chancellor  of  all  Virginia,)  and  that  much,  very  much,  of 
the  power  of  his  mind  still  remained:  and,  to  the  day  of  his  death,  that  remained, 
which,  if  it  does  not  supply  the  place  of  understanding,  contributes,  above  all  things, 
to  enliofhten  and  direct  its  action — that  which  is  one,  and  the  most  essential  ingre- 
dient of  true  wisdom — I  mean  benignity  of  heart,  unsullied  purity,  and  all  the  firm- 
ness of  Roman  virtue.  And  his  decrees,  to  the  very  last,  though  they  exhibited 
much  of  quaintness,  and  some  inattention  to,  or  oversight  of  details,  and  the  slow- 
ness of  old  age,  aggravated  in  his  case  by  the  loss  of  the  use  of  his  right  hand, 
owing  to  which  he  must  have  lost  not  a  little  time  in  noting  details,  yet  displayed, 
always,  a  heart  which  never  swerved  from  pure  and  impartial  justice,  and  a  judgment 
which  seldom  strayed,  and  never  far,  from  the  eternal  principles  of  truth  and  right. 

If  we  had  had  the  provision  which  prevails  in  New  York,  Pendleton  would  have  been 
removed  from  the  bench,  twenty-four  years  before  his  death — for  he  died  at  eighty- 
four,  I  ask  any  gentleman,  acquainted  with  the  facts,  was  the  business  of  the  Court 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


735 


of  Appeals  conducted  with  less  despatch  in  his  latter  years  ?  Did  he  display  less  ad- 
dress, less  power  of  mind,  in  directing  the  deliberations  of  the  court,  and  in  bringing 
younger  Judges  to  habits  of  diligence  by  his  presiding  influence  ?  The  direct  re- 
verse was  the  fact.  As  he  advanced  in  years,  his  influence  continued  to  increase— it 
never  ceased  to  be  felt.  The  power  of  his  mind,  the  controlling  influence  of  his 
hoary  wisdom,  was  felt  and  acknowledged  by  such  men  as  Spencer  Roane.  1  derive 
my  information  from  the  fountain  head — it  was  given  me  by  Roane  himself.  Of 
Judge  Roane,  I  could  speak  from  personal  knowledge — I  knew  his  private  and  otS- 
cial  character  perfectly  well — but  he  belonged  to  our  own  times,  and  the  place  he 
filled  in  the  public  confidence  is  known  to  us  all.  He,  it  is  true,  died  at  the  age  of 
sixty-three — but  the  New  York  rule  would  have  anticipated  the  hand  of  death  in  re- 
moving him  from  the  bench.  I  say,  in  the  name  of  all  the  bar  of  the  Court  of  Ap- 
peals, and  I  might  venture  to  say  in  the  name  of  all  the  people  of  Virginia,  that  it 
was  precisely  at  the  period  of  his  death,  that  his  understanding  was  the  strongest; 
that  there  was  no  want  of  every  faculty  adapted  to  the  able  discharge  of  all  the  du- 
ties of  his  station. 

We  have,  then,  a  series  of  instances  of  English  Judges,  retaining  the  f\ill  vigor  of 
their  minds,  to  seventy,  seventy-five,  and  even  eighty  years — and  we  have  a  history 
of  the  Virginia  bench  confirming  a  like  state  of  facts.  Gentlemen  will  draw  their 
own  conclusion. 

Turn  now,  I  pray  you,  to  New  York,  from  whose  institutions  we  are  to  borrow  this 
improvement.  It  is  a  mistake  to  suppose,  as  the  gentleman  from  Amherst  does,  that 
Kent  and  Spencer  were  both  removed  by  the  limitation  of  age.  It  was  not  the  Con- 
stitutional provision,  but  a  revolutionary  decapitation,  by  which  Spencer  fell.  He 
was  Conventionized  out  of  office.  We  are  going  to  Conventionize  all  of  our  Judges. 
The  New  York  Convention  had  the  grace  not  to  abolish  the  Court  of  Chancery;  and 
thus  Kent  was  left  to  die  a  political  death  at  the  age  of  sixty.  He  is  a  superannuated 
Judge  !  The  man  remains  in  full  possession  of  a  first  rate  capacity,  peculiarly  adapt- 
ed to  Judicial  station. 

Does  the  gentleman  fi'om  Amherst  ever  read  the  New  York  Reports.''  Perhaps,  he 
has  seldom  had  occasion  to  consult  them ;  but  those  who  have  to  discuss  questions  of 
commercial  law,  must  necessarily  refer  to  them.  I  venture  to  recommend  them  to 
the  gentleman  :  he  will  find  great  profit  from  the  perusal,  whatever  may  be  the  point 
of  law-learning,  on  which  he  may  want  information.  I  must  say,  that  to  me  nothing 
seems  more  apparent,  than  that  the  younger  Judges,  of  whom  the  gentleman  spoke 
as  so  ably  supplying  the  place  of  those  said  to  be  superannuated,  are  in  every  way 
inferior  to  them.  In  my  poor  opinion,  there  is  a  manifest  deterioration  in  the  bench 
of  that  State.  For  my  own  part,  I  attribute  it,  mainly,  to  certain  new  principles  intro- 
duced by  their  late  Convention,  but,  whatever  be  the  cause,  the  fact  is  so,  or,  at  least, 
generally  believed  to  be  so. 

Yet  it  must  be  admitted,  and  I  freely  admit,  that  there  is  a  period  of  life,  at  which 
the  strongest  minds  become  impaired:  but  I  deny  that  it  is  always,  or  even  generally, 
at  seventy,  or  at  seventy-five.  But  there  is  a  period  somewhere.  Let  us  see,  whether 
there  is  any  necessity  to  fix  that  period  in  our  Constitution. 

A  provision  has  already  been  agreed  on,  for  the  removal  of  any  Judge  by  a  vote  of 
two-thirds  of  the  Legislature.  Let  age  then,  or  let  disease  (which  is  a  much  more 
frequent  agent  in  producing  such  an  effect.)  impair  the  intellectual  powers  of  one  of 
our  Judges,  and  that  in  so  great  a  degree  that  it  shall  be  apparent  and  undeniable; 
this  provision  is  a  remedy  for  the  mischief.  It  is  unquestionabl}^  true,  that  it  will  be 
a  task  of  extreme  delicacy  to  remove  a  Judge  for  such  a  cause,  and  that  the  feelings 
of  the  Legislature  strongly  revolt  at  the  thought  of  turning  out  an  aged  public  ser- 
vant on  account  of  his  age  alone.  There  was  truth  and  good  sense  in  the  remarks 
of  the  gentleman  on  that  part  of  the  subject.  But  then  it  must  be  remembered,  that 
you  cannot  contrive  any  system  of  human  law,  which  will  alwaj^s  work  well,  which 
will  not  sometimes  be  productive  of  evil.  All  we  have  to  do,  and  all  we  can  do,  is, 
to  adopt  such  measures,  as  will  be  most  apt  to  produce  the  most  good  and  the  least 
evil.  If  we  establish  a  fixed  period,  we  shall  surely  encounter  the  very  serious  evil 
of  expelling  from  the  bench,  some,  nay  many,  who  at  the  very  time  most  adorn  it. 
The  question,  then,  comes  to  this,  whether  the  adoption  of  the  proposed  principle 
will  not,  in  all  probability,  oftener  remove  matured  wisdom  from  the  bench,  or  the  re- 
jection of  it,  retain  imbecility  or  dotage  in  the  judgment  seat.  In  my  opinion,  it  is 
more  prudent  to  take  the  risk  of  the  latter  mischief. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke,  said  that  the  Convention  had  now  arrived  at  the  period 
of  its  debates  when  a  long  discussion  could  not  be  agreeable,  though  conducted  with 
the  eloquence  of  Demosthenes  and  Cicero.  All  he  wished  was,  to  ask  a  question. 
Was  the  fundaiiiental  rule,  in  any  country,  established  upon  exceptions?  If  it  was, 
and  ought  to  be,  then  he  admitted  that  various  instances  might  be  produced  of  men 
who  retained  their  powers  to  a  late  period  of  life.  The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield 
might  have  gone  further  back.    He  could,  indeed,  have  found  but  one  Moses,  who 


736 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION, 


was  one  hundred  and  twenty  years  old  when  he  died  :  his  eye  was  not  dim,  nor  his 
^^atural  force  abated."  But  he  might  find  thousands  over  four  score  who  kept  the 
vigour  of  their  minds.  Bat  was  this  the  great  law  of  nature.''  How  many  more 
were  there  who  lost  their  vigour  before  they  passed  the  grand  climacteric  ?  And  ought 
the  rule  to  have  respect  to  the  few  exceptions,  or  to  the  multitude  of  ordinary  cases? 
On  the  gentleman's  principles  the  same  difficulty  would  occur  in  fixing  a  period  for 
mature  age.  It  was  fixed  by  our  laws  at  twenty-one :  but  how  many  thousands  might 
be  found,  whose  minds  were  as  mature,  and  their  bodies  too,  at  eighteen  ?  Yet  who 
would  change  the  law.-*  In  the  present  case  he  should  think  the  more  broad  and  uni- 
versal it  could  be  made,  the  better  :  and  there  were  certainly  more  who  lost  their  pow- 
ers before  seventy,  than  who  kept  them  till  after  eighty.  He  thought  the  public  good 
would  be  a  gainer  and  not  a  loser  by  the  exclusion. 

Mr.  Venable  said,  this  was  one  of  those  questions  on  which  he  had  reflected  witfai 
much  anxiety:  the  more,  because  he  had  not  entire  confidence  in  his  own  opiniom 
respecting  it :  for  he  found,  in  conversation  with  those  whose  judgment  he  m«&t  re- 
spected, that  they  differed  from  him  on  this  point.  He  should  not  trouble  the  Con- 
vention with  all  the  reflections  he  had  indulged,  but  would  offer  one  or  two  remarks. 
Let  us  suppose,  said  Mr.  V.,  that  we  do  not  set  any  such  limit  as  is  proposed  :  what 
then  ?  When  a  man  becomes  old,  and  his  powers  begin  to  decay,  you  subject  him  to 
the  Legislature  too,  to  what  must  be  equally  painful  to  both.  For  he  will  generally 
be  the  last  to  discover  when  his  mind  gives  way:  and  if  he  is  removed,  though  with 
the  best  cause,  he  will  consider  his  country  as  ungrateful,  and  will  suppose  that  those 
who  have  brought  forward  the  measure  have  been  influenced  by  motives  of  personal 
hostility.  He  cannot  see  his  own  imbecility  :  he  cannot,  therefore,  anticipate  its  con- 
sequences; and  whenever  they  do  come,  they  will  be  sure  to  take  him  by  surprise. 
Let  us  now  look  on  the  other  side,  and  suppose  an  age  to  be  fixed  by  the  Constitution 
when  he  must  go  out  of  office.  He  then  accepts  the  office  with  this  knowledge — 
he  can  anticipate  the  consequence,  and  he  shapes  his  course  accordingly.  When  he 
returns  to  private  life,  he  does  so  with  feelings  uninjured,  and  he  continues  to  enjoy 
the  same  respect  as  he  did  before.  His  removal  implies  in  it  no  imputation  on  has. 
understanding.    Thus  far  as  it  respects  the  individual  himself. 

We  have  had  examples  both  from  Europe  and  this  country  to  shew  that  men  some- 
times retain  their  powers  to  a  great  age.  I  admit  all  the  force  of  these  examples.  I  ac- 
knowledge that  it  may  happen  that  a  Judge  will  be  quite  as  valuable  after  he  has  passed 
the  prescribed  limit  as  before.  But  how  difficult  will  it  be  to  determine  this:  and  to 
what  an  extremely  unpleasant  situation  does  it  reduce  the  Assembly.  For  myself,  I 
believe  the  faculties  decay  between  sixty-five  and  seventy.  I  will  not  go  to  England 
for  cases  to  settle  this  question,  I  will  look  round  me,  on  those  who  were  the  com- 
panions of  my  youth  :  and  where  are  they  ?  Several  of  them  are  in  the  Judiciary. 
Are  they  able  to  do  their  duty  there  ?  I  wish  they  were.  I  wish  it  for  the  sake  of 
the  country,  and  for  their  own  reputation.  Some  few  of  them  are  competent.  But 
would  it  not  wound  my  feelings  most  sensibly  to  see  an  aged  Judge  turned  out  of 
office,  and  incompetency  openly  avowed  as  the  cause  of  his  removal.''  We  are  not 
to  judge  from  extreme  cases.  We  do  know  there  is  a  time  when  the  mind  decays, 
when  its  powers  begin  to  sink.  I  know  it  by  my  own  experience,  and  by  observiBg 
those  whom  I  knew  in  youth.  But  unless  some  definite  time  be  fixed,  how  can  they 
look  forward  and  anticipate  the  time  when  they  are  to  retire  :  when  old  age  arrives 
they  ought  to  retire:  it  is  fit  and  becoming:  and  I  do  not  wish  to  see  them  elec- 
tioneering with  the  members  of  Assembly  to  be  retained  in  office.  If  a  man  is  honest 
and  loves  his  country,  his  feelings  will  be  tender:  but  if  he  is  one  who  has  always  been 
hunting  after  office,  the  case  will  be  far  different.  Mr.  V.  concluded,  by  declaring 
his  willingness  to  vote  for  filling  the  blank  in  the  resolution  with  the  age  of  seventy. 

Mr.  Johnson  said,  that  he  was  opposed  both  to  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman 
from  Amherst,  and  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun :  and  he  would  detain  the 
House  but  a  few  minutes,  while  he  briefly  stated  the  grounds  of  his  objections.  He 
was  opposed  to  the  latter  amendment,  because  he  considered  it  as  inimical,  in  its  ef- 
fect, to  the  independence  of  the  Judiciary.  If  a  Constitutional  period  should  be 
fixed,  at  which  all  Judges  were  to  vacate  their  office,  and  then  the  Legislature  should 
be  clothed  with  power  to  re-appoint  such  as  they  considered  peculiarly  able  and  me- 
ritorious, the  inevitable  effect  would  be,  that  all  Judges  would  be  under  a  tempta- 
tion to  court  the  Legislature  for  their  continuance  in  office.  Supposing  a  man  to  be 
placed  upon  the  bench  at  fifty,  if  he  must  return  to  the  Legislature  for  a  re-appoint- 
ment at  sixty  or  sixty -five,  the  plan  carried  all  the  evils  of  an  election  of  Judges  for 
a  term  of  years. 

He  was  opposed  to  the  first  amendment,  because  he  believed  it  would  operate  most 
injuriously  upon  the  interests  of  the  Commonwealth.  He  could  not,  however,  speak 
with  certainty  as  to  its  effects,  until  the  blank  should  have  been  filled.  If  it  was  to 
be  filled  with  ninety,  there  might  as  well  be  no  amendment  at  all;  or  if  with  eighty, 
it  would  be  of  little  consequence.   But,  he  was  to  presume^  that  the  blank  would  be 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION'. 


737 


filled  vrith  some  age,  that  would  give  the  rule  a  practical  operation.  A  rule  that 
would  touch  but  one  man  in  a  century,  would  be  of  little  moment:  he  supposed  it 
was  to  be  such  a  rule,  as  would  often  take  effect.  Suppose  the  blank  filled  with  sixty 
or  with  sixty-five,  and  what  would  be  the  consequence?  One  consequence  had  been 
already  pointed  out.  in  a  manner  so  clear,  in  language  so  eloquent,  and  wilh  referen- 
ces so  imposing,  that  he  need  add  notljinj  to  enl'  rce  it.  Its  operation  would  sweep 
from  the  bench  its  brightest  ornaments,  and  deprive  the  Commonwealth  of  its  best 
security  in  the  wisdom  and  experience  of  those  who  administered  the  laws.  They 
had  been  told,  that  this  could  only  happen  in  those  few  rare  instances,  which  an  in= 
dulgent  Heaven  sometimes  permitted  to  bless  a  country.  True :  and  these  were  the 
very  men.  whom,  above  all  others,  they  ought  to  take  every  means  to  retain.  It  was 
this  rare  talent,  which  they  should  be  the  most  anxious  to  cherish.  What  was  not 
the  value  of  such  a  man  as  Pendleton  and  Roane,  in  guiding  the  deliberations  of  the 
Judicial  tribunals  of  the  country  .'  One  such  Judge,  was  worth  all  the  youno-  athletic 
men  from  thirty  to  sixty,  vrhom  you  could  bring  upon  the  bench.  They  oucrht  not 
lightly  to  adopt  any  regulation.  v\-liich  would  banish  the  services  of  such  rare  and 
gifted  men,  precisely  at  the  time  when  their  services  were  of  the  most  value. 

There  was  another  operation  of  the  rule,  which  would  prove  not  less  deleterious. 
It  was  on  all  accounts  desirable,  to  fill  Judicial  stations  with  the  best  legal  talent  that 
could  be  obtained.  Xow.  such  talent  would  or  would  not  be  likely  to  be  obtained,  accord- 
ing to  the  value  of  the  reward  which  was  held  out,  as  an  inducement  to  go  upon  the 
bench.  When  a  lawyer,  on  being  ofi'ered  a  commission  as  Judge,  was  to  be  told,  that 
he  could  not  hold  the  office  more  than  ten  or  fifteen  years,  and  must  then  be  turned 
adrift,  it  stripped  the  otFer  of  more  than  half  its  value.  Unless  they  meant  to  make 
up  for  this,  by  cfiviug  their  Judges  such  a  salary,  as  to  be  a  sufficient  temptation,  by 
enabling  him.  in  that  time,  to  lay  up  a  enough  to  provide  for  his  old  age — (and  he 
well  knew,  that  Virginia  meant  to  do  no  such  thing) — the  temporary  duration  of  the 
office,  took  away  more  than  half  its  value. 

What  was  the  ex-Jud^e  to  do  -  Turn  his  thoughts  to  some  other  employment .-  To 
what  purpose  Must  he  go  back  to  his  practice  To  his  practice  at  the  bar,  at  sixty- 
five  .-  His  practice  was  gone  ;  all  connexion  with  his  clients  had  been  cut  off";  sur- 
rounded too.  with  competitors  in  the  meridian  of  Jife.  and  in  full  possession  of  the 
bar  ;  to  plunge  into  all  the  turmoils  and  strife  of  the  bar,  at  the  age  of  sixty-five  1 

But.  it  was  said,  that  he  rnijht  keep  a  private  school,  and  thus  be  more  useful  to 
his  country  than  ever.  A  noble  prospect,  indeed,  to  be  offered  to  the  first  talents  in 
the  country  :  to  be  turned  off"  the  bench  at  sixty-five,  and  go  to  keeping  a  school  i 

The  gentleman  from  Amherst  seemed  to  tliink  that  the  knowledge  o?this  prospect 
would  Save  a  tendency  to  cause  the  Judge  to  keep  his  faculties  whetted,  and  ready 
for  action,  and  thus  he  would  not  relax,  but  rather  increase  his  exertions.  He  would 
not  forget  what  little  law  he  knew,  and  grow  worse  from  year  to  year,  as  at  present. 
Now,  his  opinion  was,  that  the  knowledge  of  such  a  prospect  would  operate  directly 
the  other  way.  Tell  a  man  that,  at  all  events,  his  office  must  be  taken  from  him  after 
a  few  short  years,  and  what  would  he  do .-  devote  himself  to  its  duties  and  whet  his 
faculties  for'future  exertion.-  Xo  :  but  he  would  -withdraw  all  the  time  and  all  the 
exertion  that  could  at  all  be  spared  from  its  duties,  that  he  might  occupy  it  in  making 
a  provision  for  the  future  wants  of  his  family  :  his  temptation  would  be,  to  necrlect 
the  service  of  tlie  public,  that  he  might  improve  his  private  fortune.  He  would  say 
to  himself — I  have  got  this  situation  but  for  a  few  years  ;  the  wants  of  my  family 
will  require  all  I  can  make  in  the  mean  while."  If  the  confidence  tliat  he  was  pro- 
vided tor  during  life  would  have  a  tendency  to  relax  exertion,  what  would  the  know- 
ledge of  the  opposite  produce  .'  It  might  make  a  good  farmer — a  good  merchant — a 
keen  speculator  ;,  but  certainly  not  a  good  Judge. 

Why  fix  a  limit,  where  thev  had  already  a  provision  allowing  the  Legislature  to  re- 
move a  Judge  whenever  they  mi^ht  deem  it  expedient.'  The  Convention  had  been 
very  properly  told,  that  it  was  not'old  age  alone  that  incapacitated  men  for  mental  ex- 
ertion :  disease  often  produced  that  effect  long  before.  It  would  often  do  so,  even  be- 
fore the  Constitutional  period  should  have  arrived.  What  tlien  Certainly  the  Le- 
gislature would  be  most  reluctant  to  exert  its  power,  when  a  few  years  would  accom- 
plish it.  A  Judge  becomes  paralytic  at  sixty  :  five  years  more  would  rid  them  of  the 
burden,  and  they  would  be  unwilling  to  remove  him  beforehand.  He  put  it  to  every 
gentleman  who  "heard  him  to  say,  whether  the  imbecile  Judges  now  on  tlie  bench  (if 
there  were  anv  such)  had  become  so  by  the  hand  of  old  age  merely  ?  or  whether  they 
did  not  owe  it  rather  to  the  hand  of  disease.-  But.  that  provision  putting  it  in  the 
power  of  the  Legislature  to  turn  out  a  Judge  who  was  unable  to  do  the  duties  of  his 
office,  would  operate  as  a  warning  to  the  Judge  him.self  and  to  his  friends:  and  be- 
fore the  Legislature  could  act  on  the  case,  they  would  be  anticipated  by  the  prudence 
of  the  individual  or  the  advice  of  liis  firiends,'and  he  would  himself  resign  his  office. 
His  friends  would  feel  the  necessitv  of  the  case,  if  the  man  himself  did  not. 

93 


738 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  J.  concluded  by  declaring  his  preference  for  a  Constitution  without  such  a 
limitation  as  was  proposed  by  the  amendment. 

Mr.  Thompson  said,  he  had  listened  with  much  delight  to  the  able  and  eloquent  re- 
marks of  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  (Mr.  Leigh,)  and  the  gentleman  from  Au- 
gusta, (Mr.  Johnson.)  The  first  gentleman  had  certainly  presented  in  formidable 
array,  the  evils  which  such  a  provision  would  have  produced  in  Virginia  and  England, 
and  liad  produced  in  New  York,  where  it  had  been  tried  ;  but  after  all,  the  gentleman's 
examples  were  but  exceptions  to  a  general  rule,  and  exceptions  of  which  he  had  made 
the  most,  by  a  most  interesting  narrative  of  Judicial  history  and  Judicial  worth,  a 
most  beautiful  eulogium,  and  just  as  beautiful  on  the  Judges  to  whom  this  provision 
would  have  or  had  applied.  The  gentleman  had,  by  no  means,  transcended  the  limits 
of  just  panegyric  in  the  tribute  of  praise  he  had  paid  to  the  names  of  Mansfield  and  of 
Holt,  of  Wythe,  Pendleton  and  of  Roane,  of  Spencer  and  of  Kent.  Mr.  T.  was  sen- 
sible of  the  justice  of  the  eulogium — he  heard  it  with  delight,  and  as  a  lover  of  living 
and  departed  worth,  he  was  glad  the  gentleman  had  undertaken  the  task,  and  had 
performed  it  with  his  wonted  felicity  of  thought  and  expression,  and  he  acknowledged 
the  force  of  the  argument  bottomed  upon  it.  Mr.  T.  said  the  strong  views  of  both 
the  gentlemen,  though  they  had  produced  doubts  in  his  mind,  had  not  convinced  him; 
and  he  would,  with  the  indulgence  of  the  House,  attempt  in  a  short  reply  to  sustain 
and  vindicate  the  amendment  and  the  views  he  had  submitted  when  first  up.  Mr.  T. 
said,  he  had  frankly  admitted  in  the  outset,  that  the  rule  would  sometimes  work  evil; 
as  what  general  rule  would  not He  had  endeavoured  to  shew  that  the  good  would 
preponderate  in  the  scale.  Such,  said  Mr.  T.  is  the  constitution  of  man  and  of  hu- 
man aftairs — good  and  evil  are  so  mixed  up  and  blended,  that  we  are  reduced  continu- 
ally to  the  choice  between  evils,  and  this  more  especially,  as  we  have  been  informed 
by  sapient  statesmen,  in  the  foundation  of  Government  and  the  enactment  of  all  ge- 
neral IsiVJs,  rules  and  regulations  whatever.  There  is,  perhaps,  no  unmixed  good, 
nor  unmixed  evil.  One  thing  is  certain  as  it  seems  to  me,  said  Mr.  T.  there  is  no 
general  provision  of  Constitutions  or  of  law,  without  its  particular  hardships,  and  such 
is  the  character  of  the  amendment  in  your  hand ;  but  shall  cases  of  individual  hard- 
ships or  inconvenience  be  put  in  competition  with  the  public  interests  ?  Shall  the 
paramount  consideration  of  a  speedy,  able  and  satisfactory  administration  of  justice, 
that  incomparably  most  important  function  of  all  Governments,  yield  to  individual 
convenience  or  inconvenience  ?  Mr.  T.  trusted  not.  The  remarks  of  the  gentleman 
from  Chesterfield,  (Mr.  Leigh,)  only  proved  what  was  not  denied,  that  some  men  re- 
tained their  faculties  to  a  very  advanced  age,  and  the  names  he  invoked  were  truly 
illustrious  examples.  He  might  have  added  another  to  his  catalogue.  He  might  have 
vouched  the  authority  of  Tully  in  proof  of  the  fact,  for  he  had  informed  us  in  his 
treatise  de  senectute  that  Cato,  as  well  as  I  remember,  retained  his  faculties  in  full  vi- 
gour to  the  last  day  of  an  unusually  protracted  life,  and  he  continued  to  improve  to 
the  day  of  his  death,  and  that  he  was  exempted  from  that  almost  universal  infirmity 
of  life's  "  last  scenes,"  second  childhood.  But  Mr.  T.  would  ask  again,  if  this  were 
the  common  fate  of  the  species  ?  or  were  these  instances  only  rare  exceptions  Every 
man's  own  experience  or  observation  would  furnish  him  with  the  answer. 

The  propriety  of  a  general  rule  as  to  age,  in  defiance  of  the  exceptions  that  might 
be  urged  against  it,  was  illustrated  by  a  provision  we  have  already  adopted  almost 
without  objection.  We  have  provided,  that  no  man  shall  be  eligible  to  the  House  of 
Delegates  before  the  age  of  twenty-five,  nor  to  the  Senate  before  the  age  of  thirty; 
to  say  nothing  of  the  provision  of  the  United  States  Constitution,  that  requires  a  per- 
son to  be  thirty-five,  before  he  is  eligible  to  the  Presidency,  and  the  provision  in  the 
code  of  all  nations  fixing  a  period  of  maturity,  in  some  one,  some  another,  and  in  ours 
the  age  of  twenty-one  years.  Now,  said  Mr.  T.  I  would  ask  gentlemen  if  there  are 
not  as  many  and  more  instances  of  precocious  intellect,  than  of  persons  beyond  the 
age  of  sixty  or  seventy  years  retaining  the  full  possession  of  their  mental,  to  say 
nothing  of  their  physical  faculties  .''  They  must  answer  in  the  affirmative — need  I  il- 
lustrate this  by  example  ?  I  might  cite  the  younger  Pitt,  who,  before  the  age  of 
twenty-five,  was,  perhaps,  the  greatest  prime  minister  that  ever  ruled  the  destinies  of 
England,  and  with  them  almost  those  of  the  world.  Lord  Byron  at  an  age  but  little 
more  advanced,  an  age  at  which  the  generality  of  mankind  are  but  commencing  their 
careers  of  glory  or  of  usefulness,  had  finished  his  ;  and  a  more  brilliant  one  has  sel- 
dom, if  ever,  been  run  by  any  votary  of  the  muses  :  but  would  it  be  fair  to  conclude 
from  these  and  other  like  instances  that  might  be  cited,  that  thirty  was  not  the  pro- 

?er  age  of  eligibility  for  Senator,  or  thirty-five  for  President  of  the  United  States  ? 
f  it  would  not,  as  little  will  the  extreme  cases  put  by  the  gentleman  from  Chester- 
field, (Mr.  Leigh.)  oppugn  the  principle  of  the  amendment. 

It  was  true,  said  Mr.  T.  that  the  English  Judges  were  generally  old  men  ;  many  of 
them,  indeed,  as  had  been  properly  remarked,  had  presided  to  very  advanced  ages. 
They  could  not  in  the  nature  of  things  be  very  young  men,  when  they  ascended  the 


DEBATES    OF    THE  CONVENTION. 


739 


bench,  afler  having  dragged  out  their  probation  and  rode  out  their  quarantine  of  th« 
"  Vigenti  annorum  lucubrationes  f  but  was  it  not  also  true  that  the  KngUsh  nation,  at 
this  time^,  was  not  altogether  satisfied  of  the  correctness  of  their  ancient  prejudice  in 
favour  of  ancient  Judges  The  question  whether  or  not  it  was  a  blessing  or  a  curse, 
had  been  agitated  there  and  discussed  with  freedom ;  he  was  not  certain,  but  he  be- 
lieved, in  the  Ediuburg  Review.  In  wJiatever  periodical  it  was,  this  he  remembered 
about  it,  that  the  prejudice  in  favour  of  very  old  Judges,  was  assimilated  to  that 
which  prevailed  in  Europe,  and.  perliaps.  every  where  m  favour  of  old  generals,  un- 
til it  was  exploded  by  the  genius  and  tiie  successes  of  Napoleon.  I'hat  there  was 
some,  if  not  an  entire  analogy  in  these  prejudices,  Mr.  T.  said,  he  could  not  doubt. 
But  advanced  age  is  a  less  objection  to  an  English  Judge  than  it  is  here ;  because 
ours,  except  the  Judges  in  the  last  resort,  require  to  discharge  their  duties  well,  the 
possession  of  more  of  physical  energv  tiian  do  the  English  Judges.  The  reason  of 
the  distinction  was  apparent  to  every  "lawyer,  at  least;  it  was  to  be  found  m  the  ditfer- 
ent  organization  of  our  Judicial  establishment. 

Mr.  T.  said,  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  (Mr.  Johnson.)  had  foreseen  several  evils 
in,  and  pointed  out  several  objections^'to,  the  amendment.  He  thought  them  rather 
imaginary  than  real.  That  gentleman  and  himself  had  certainly  drawn  directly  op- 
posite conclusions  from  same  premises.  He  apprehended  the  greatest  evil  from  the 
very  features  from  A-hich  he,  Mr.  T..  anticipated  the  greatest  good.  The  gentleman 
thought  it  would  impair  the  independence  of  the  Judge — that  it  would  prevent  com- 
petent persons  from  accepting  the  office  ;  that  it  would  divert  the  mind  of  the  Judge 
from  duty  while  in  office,  and  set  him  to  electioneer  by  anticipation  for  a  new  office, 
wiiich  he  might  never  live  to  occupy  ;  and  that  should  the  Judge  chance  to  live  be- 
yond the  term  of  limitation,  deplorable  would  be  his  condition — a  lawyer  without  cli= 
ents,  and  an  aged  man  set  adrift  in  his  old  age  to  starve,  or  to  subsist  upon  the  stinted 
bounty  of  an  unfeeling  world.  Of  the  loss  of  clients,  said  Mr.  T.,  the  complaint  was 
really  groundless — for,  said  he,  I  never  have  yet  seen  a  lavryer  in  practice  over  the 
age  of  seventy ;  though  doubtless  such  have  been — but  the  cases  are  too  rare  to  form 
the  foundation  of  an  argument.  There  was  no  danger  of  men  well  qualiiied  not  ac- 
cepting the  office,  and  he  could  not  possibly  conceive  how  it  could  impair  the  inde- 
pendence of  the  Judge  or  serve  to  turn  him  aside  from  the  path  of  duty.  If  he,  Mr. 
T.  was  not  mistaken  in  his  estimate  of  the  nature  of  men,  the  consequences  and  ef- 
fects would  be  directly  the  reverse,  and  such  as  he  had  before  pointed  out,  and  he 
could  not,  therefore,  now  repeat.  Mr.  T.  said,  it  was  his  deliberate  opinion,  that  it 
was  a  far  greater  evil  to  have  even  one  superannuated  Judge  upon  the  judgment  seat 
than  to  exclude  many  good  ones  for  age,  for  the  reasons  he  had  before  assigned.  Mr. 
T.  said;  the  pertinent  and  common  sense  view,  that  had  been  taken  of  this  subject  by 
the  gentleman  fro.u  Prince  Edward,  i^Mr.  Venable.)  and  the  gentleman  from  Brooke, 
(Mr.  Campbell.)  who  had  preceded  him  in  its  favour,  seemed  very  much  to  confirm  him 
in  the  opinion  that  the  amendment  would  prove  salutary.  Their  views  had  doubtless 
rendered  much  of  what  he  had  said  unnecessary,  perhaps  repetition — and  he  was  sure 
would  render  any  thing  more  from  him  tiresome  to  the  Convention.  He  was  himself 
fully  prepared  to  record  his  vote  in  favour  of  the  amendment. 

Mr.  Stanard  thought  it  most  extraordinary,  that  the  gentleman  from  Amherst,  while 
conscious  as  he  coiiiessed  himself  to  be  of  one  sort  of  influence  likely  to  be  exerted 
on  the  Judiciary  from  fixing  a  limit  to  their  period  of  service,  should  yet  be  so  blind 
to  another  sort  of  influence  equally  obvious.  Was  it  not  surprising,  that  while  draw- 
ing his  precedents  from  the  State  of  Xew  York,  and  with  the  recent  history  of  that 
State  before  his  eyes,  he  should  make  no  allowance  for  this  obvious  tendency  of  hia 
plan.'  The  next  evil  to  a  dependent  Judiciary,  was  a  political  Judiciary.  He  viewed 
such  a  Judiciar}'  as  one  of  the  ofreatest  curses  that  could  befall  any  community.  To 
have  tlie  seat  of  justice  invaded  by  party  passions  and  political  partialities,  and  to  have 
its  course  moulded  by  them  !  Who  could  contemplate  such  a  state  of  things  without 
grief  and  alarm.'  The  gentleman  from  Amherst  had  said  that  a  Judge,  should  his 
faculties  remain  unimpaired  beyond  the  Constitutional  limit,  might  look  forward  from 
the  favour  of  his  country  to  be  placed  in  some  other  situation  by  way  of  requital  for 
his  past  services.  He  granted  that  he  might  do  so :  and  more  :  he  certainly  would  do 
BO  :  he  must.  But,  what  public  favour  could  any  one  hope  to  gain,  in  the  state  of  this 
country,  if  attached  to  none  of  the  party  combinations  of  his  day  ?  "Who  could  hope 
for  such  a  thing.'  Who  believed  it  possible The  consequence  was  inevitable — the 
tenant  for  years  would  make  his  situation  subservient  to  the  reversion  :  and  if  he  did 
not,  his  old  age  must  be  left  without  any  provision.  But  were  they  left  to  a  priori 
conclusions  on  this  subject.-  Was  not  the  fact  before  the  gentleman's  eyes.'  and  in 
that  very  State  from  which  he  had  draum  his  precedent  and  his  argument  to  support 
it.'  Look  at  the  state  of  political  parties  in  New  York — was  not  the  gentleman  sure 
tliat  party  had  influenced  this  limitation  of  office  .'  The  expectation  of  a  reversion 
had  had  there  the  most  pernicious  eflect.  The  bench  of  that  State  had  become  a  band 
of  political  missionaries,    The  Convention  in  New  York  had  had  its  origin  solely  in 


740  DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 

this  connexion  of  the  Judges  with  the  party  politics  of  the  day.  That  was  the  whole 
cause  of  it.  It  had  been  called  for  the  purpose  of  inflicting  the  vengeance  of  a  domi- 
nant party  on  those  who,  when  they  were  dominant,  had  used  the  Judicial  station  for 
party  ends. 

And  yet,  with  these  conclusions  of  reason  and  experience  before  their  eyes,  it  was 
gravely  proposed  to  this  body,  thus  to  contaminate  the  Judiciary,  and  make  it  politi- 
cal in  its  character.  In  the  sober  and  discreet  judgment  of  the  Convention,  he  should 
suppose  that  this  view  alone  was  sufficient  to  condemn  the  plan. 

The  gentleman  had  said,  that  all  general  rules  worked  some  indirect  mischief,  which 
could  not  be  avoided,  and  to  object  to  his  proposition  was  to  object  to  general  rules. 
But,  he  asked,  why  must  we  have  any  general  rule  in  the  matter.^  "Why  have  a  ge- 
neral rule,  which,  as  the  gentleman  confessed,  must  work  some  mischief  with  its 
good,  when  they  had  already  a  provision  that  met  the  case,  and  produced  the  good 
witliout  the  evil He  was  for  no  general  rule  where  he  could  get  one  adapted  to 
the  particular  case.  He  would  venture  to  say,  that  under  the  eighth  resolution,  (which 
provides  for  excluding  Judges  at  any  time  by  a  vote  of  two-thirds  of  the  Legislature) 
there  would  not  be  found  upon  the  bench  of  Virginia  for  six  months,  any  Judge  who, 
by  disease  or  age,  liad  become  imbecile  and  useless.  Every  such  Judge  would  be  ta- 
ken from  the  bench,  not  by  the  Legislature,  but  by  his  own  friends,  who  never  would 
run  the  risk  of  exposing  him  to  Legislative  enquiry.  Mr.  S.  concluded  that  there 
was  no  necessity  of  any  such  limit  as  had  been  proposed,  and  he  should  therefore  vote 
against  it. 

The  question  was  then  taken,  and  the  propositions  of  Mr.  Thompson  and  Mr.  Hen- 
derson were  rejected.    The  former  by  ayes  and  lioes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — 'Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffman,  Williamson,  M'Coy,  Beirne,  Smith,  Baxter, 
Venable,  Henderson,  Cooke,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars, 
Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Camp- 
bell of  Bedlbrd,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Martin,  Thompson  and  Upshur — 27. 

JVoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Clopton,  Harrison,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  Moore,  Miller,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trez- 
vant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Madison,  Stanard, 
Holladay,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Osborne,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor, 
Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Duncan, 
Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Wilson,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Taze- 
well, Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Claytor,  Branch,  Townes,  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gordon, 
Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly  and  Perrin — 69. 

The  question  then  recurring  on  agreeing  to  the  first  resolution  as  amended, 

Mr.  Doddridge  moved  to  lay  the  first  and  second  resolutions  upon  the  table,  under 
the  assurance  that  a  proposition  would  be  substituted  in  lieu  of  them,  which  would 
unite  the  views  of  both  sides  of  tlie  House. 

After  some  conversation,  in  which  Messrs.  Doddridge,  Cabell,  Scott,  Coalter  and 
Leigh  took  part. 

The  two  resolutions  were  for  the  present  laid  upon  the  table. 

The  third  and  fourth  resolutions  were  then  agreed  to. 

The  fiftli  resolution  was  read  : 

"  Resolved,  That  on  tlie  creation  of  any  new  county,  justices  of  the  peace  jihall  be 
appointed  in  the  first  instance,  as  may  be  prescribed  by  law.  When  vacancies  shall 
occur  in  any  county,  or  it  shall  from  any  cause  be  deemed  necessary  to  increase  their 
number,  appointments  shall  be  made  by  the  Governor,  on  the  recommendation  of  their 
County  Courts." 

Mr.  Upshur  proposed  to  strike  out  the  latter  sentence  of  the  resolution,  and  insert 
as  follows : 

"  Before  any  justice  of  the  peace  shall  be  appointed  to  fill  any  vacancy  which  may 
hereafter  occur,  or  to  increase  the  number  of  justices,  in  any  county  of  this  Common- 
wealth, it  shall  be  tlie  duty  of  the  county  court  thereof,  to  lay  off  and  divide  the  said 
county  into  as  many  wards  or  districts  as  may  be  deemed  proper.  Every  justice  now 
in  office,,  and  each  one  who  may  hereafter  be  appointed,  shall  be  assigned  to  some  one 
of  the  said  wards,  but  shall,  nevertheless,  exercise  his  functions  throughout  the  said 
county.  Whenever  a  justice  shall  hereafter  be  nominated,  it  shall  be  the  duty  of  the 
court  making  such  nomination,  to  cause  the  same  to  be  advertised  at  least 
days  at  the  door  of  their  courthouse,  stating  the  name  of  the  person  nominated,  and 
the  ward  for  which  he  shall  be  nominated,  before  the  same  shall  be  sent  on  to  the 
Executive.  And  if  the  qualified  voters  of  said  ward  shall  disapprove  of  said  nomina- 
tion, such  voters  shall  have  power,  a  majority  of  them  concurring,  to  nominate  some 
other  person  for  said  office,  which  nomination  shall  be  returned  to  the  County  Court, 
and  be  sent  on  to  the  Executive,  together  with  the  nomination  made  by  said  court; 
and  the  Executive  shall  appoint  either  of  the  persons  so  nominated,  as  may  be  deemed 
proper  :  Provided,  That  the  person  so  to  be  nominated  by  the  County  Court  or  by  any 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


741 


ward,  shall  be  a  resident  citizen  of  the  county,  but  need  not  be  a  resident  of  the  ward 
for  which  he  shall  be  so  nominated." 

Mr.  Upshur  briefly  explained  and  supported  his  proposition.  He  owned  that  he 
had,  himself,  no  objection  to  the  County  Courts  in  their  practical  operation :  but  as 
some  were  dissatistied  greatly  with  their  theory,  and  he  did  not  himself  wholly  ap- 
prove it,  he  offered  this  plan  as  going  to  remove  in  a  great  degree  those  objections, 
and  yet  preserve  the  benefits  of  the  system. 

Mr,  Jones  of  Chesterfield  opposed  the  amendment  in  a  neat  and  succinct  speech, 
the  principal  aim  of  which  was  to  shew  that  this  scheme,  in  its  substance  and  practi- 
cal effect,  amounted  to  giving  the  election  of  justices  of  the  peace  to  the  people,  there- 
by keeping  up  party  and  neighbourhood  strife,  and  jeopardizing  the  impartial  admin- 
istration of  justice. 

Mr.  Powell  objected  to  a  single  ward's  having  power  to  elect  an  officer  whose  power 
extended  over  the  county.  And  as  the  Governor  was  to  be  elected  by  the  people,  he 
would  be  prone  to  lean  toward  the  popular  nomination  in  preference  to  that  of  the 
court. 

Mr.  Upshur  replied  at  length  to  these  objections,  denying  that  the  people  would  elect 
the  justices  in  any  other  sense  than  the  County  Court  would.  Neither  had  they  any 
thing  more  than  the  power  of  nomination.  He  repudiated  the  idea  of  a  Judge  being 
biassed  by  partiality  to  those  who  had  nominated  him.  As  to  a  nomination  by  a  ward, 
it  did  not  bind  the  county — they  might  unite  with  the  ward-nomination  or  that  of  the 
County  Court. 

Mr.  Coalter  opposed  the  amendment,  and  told  an  amusing  anecdote  about  a  portion 
of  the  people  of  Giles  county  living  for  a  time  without  the  laws  of  the  Commonwealth, 
and  establishing  a  log-rolling  Government  of  summary  justice. 

Mr.  Gordon  supported  the  amendment,  and  Mr.  Scott  opposed  it,  giving  a  codicil 
of  the  anecdote  related  by  Mr.  Coalter. 

The  question  was  then  taken  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Jiyes — Messrs.  Goode,  Clopton,  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  "Williamson,  M'Coy, 
Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Naylor,  Donaldson, 
George,  M'Millan,  Byars,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  See,  Dod- 
dridge, Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saun- 
ders, Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Neale,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Up- 
shur and  Perrin — 43. 

Noes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas,  Baldwin, 
Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of 
Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Cooke, 
Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  Campbell  of  Washington, 
Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Cloyd,  Summers,  Barbour  of  Culpe- 
per,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes, 
Pleasants,  Bates,  Rose  and  Coalter — 53. 

So  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Upshur  was  rejected. 

Mr.  Thompson  moved  to  strike  out  the  following  words  from  the  last  clause  of  the 
fifth  resolution,  viz:  "  by  the  Governor,  on  the  recommendation  of  their  respective 
County  Courts,"  and  insert  "  in  the  following  manner,  that  is  to  say,  the  County 
Court  shall,  at  the  term  thereof,  next  preceding  the  day  of  the  annual  elec- 

tion of  the  members  of  the  General  Assembly,  enter  of  record  the  fact  of  the  occur- 
rence of  such  vacancy  or  vacancies,  or  that  in  their  opinion  other  justices  ought  to  be 
added  to  the  commission  of  tlie  peace  in  such  county,  and  how  many.  Whereupon 
it  shall  be  the  duty  of  the  sheriff,  at  the  election  of  the  county  Delegates  next  suc- 
ceeding, to  open  a  poll  or  polls,  for  the  number  of  justices  which  shall  have  been  de- 
signated by  the  said  County  Court — and  to  make  return  to  the  Governor  of  the  per- 
sons that  shall  receive  the  greatest  number  of  the  qualified  votes  of  the  county.  The 
Governor  shall  within  days  commission  the  persons,  all  or  any  part  thereof 

so  returned,  unless  in  his  opinion  the  public  interests  should  justify  his  refusal.  And 
in  the  event  of  his  refusal  to  commission  all  or  any  part,  he  shall  without  delay  trans- 
mit to  the  County  Court  the  reasons  of  such  refusal — but  upon  a  second  election  by 
the  qualified  voters,  of  the  person  or  persons  so  rejected  in  the  first  instance  by  him, 
the  duty  of  the  Governor  to  commission  shall  be  imperative." 

Mr.  Powell  moved  to  divide  the  question — and  on  that  of  striking  out,  the  motion 
was  lost,  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne, 
Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Osborne,  Donaldson,  George,  M'Millan, 
Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  See, 
Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell, 
Martin,  Stuart,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Joynes  and  Bayly — 38. 

Noes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Clopton,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart, 


742 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Randolph,  Leigh  of  HaUfax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Hender- 
son, Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  Roane, 
Taylor  of  CaroUne,  Morns,  Garnett,  Cloyd,  Summers,  Doddridge,  Barbour  of  Culpe- 
per,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes, 
Pleasants,  Bates,  JNeale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 58. 
Mr.  Claytor  moved  in  place  of  the  fifth  resolution  the  following : 
"  Resolved,  That  justices  of  the  peace  shall  hereafter  be  appointed  in  such  mode  as 
shall  be  prescribed  by  law — provided,  that  no  law  altering  the  present  mode  shall  be 
enacted,  except  by  the  concurrence  of  a  majority  of  the  members  elected  to  both 
Houses,  and  the  ayes  and  noes  on  all  such  laws,  shall  be  entered  on  the  journals  of  ^ 
both  Houses." 

The  debate  was  continued  by  Messrs.  Claytor,  Chapman,  (who  made  an  explana- 
tion as  to  the  anecdote  about  Giles  county,)  Mr.  Campbell,  Mr.  Scott,  Mr.  Giles,  Mr. 
Jones,  Mr.  Claytor,  Mr.  Stuart  and  Mr.  Naylor. 

Mr.  Dromgoole  moved  a  division  of  the  question,  upon  striking  out  first.  And  the 
question  being  taken,  was  decided  b}'  ayes  and  noes  as  follows : 

Jltjes — Messrs.  Clopton,  Anderson,  Coff'man,  Harrison,  Williamson,  M'Coy,  Moore, 
Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Nay- 
lor, Donaldson,  Boyd,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Chap- 
man, Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan, 
Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Stu- 
art, Thompson,  Massie,  Joynes,  Bayly  and  Upshur — 44. 

JYoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Baldwin,  Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph, 
Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Powell,  Griggs, 
Mason  of  Frederick,  Pendleton,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Cloyd, 
Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby, 
Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter  and  Per- 
rin— 52. 

Mr.  Wilson,  with  a  view  of  testing  the  question  about  the  County  Courts,  moved 
to  strike  out  from  this  clause  of  the  fifth  resolution,  the  words  "  on  the  recommenda- 
tion of  their  respective  County  Courts;"  which  was  lost — Ayes  23,  Noes  73. 

The  question  then  came  on,  upon  the  adoption  of  the  fifth  resolution  as  amended, 
and  was  agreed  to,  without  division. 

The  sixt.h  resolution  was  then  read  as  follows: 

*'  Resolved,  That  the  Clerks  of  the  several  Courts  shall  be  appointed  by  their  respec- 
tive Courts,  and  their  tenure  of  office  be  prescribed  by  law." 
Mr.  Morgan  moved  the  following  substitute  : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Legislature  shall  provide  by  law  for  the  appointment  of  Clerks 
to  the  several  Courts,  and  for  their  removal  from  office  :  but  no  Clerk  shall  be  appoint- 
ed lor  a  longer  term  than  years  at  any  one  time." 

In  explaining  and  supporting  the  amendment,  Mr.  Morgan  said — 

That  the  public  offices  of  the  State  were  never  intended  for  private  emolument 
or  means  of  wealth — they  were  instituted  for  the  public  good.  But  it  is  well 
known  that  the  several  clerks'  offices  of  Virginia,  have  been,  and  still  are  made 
sources  of  great  wealth.  Many  of  them  are  considered  fine  fortunes  to  the  clerks. 
Some  of  these  officers  discharge  tlieir  duty  faithfully,  while  others  make  their 
offices  subserve  the  purposes  of  wealth  and  power,  and  that  too,  without  regard 
to  honesty  or  duty.  The  object  of  the  amendment  is  to  place  them  completely 
in  the  hands  of  the  Legislature,  so  that  they  can  be-  made  responsible  for  their 
conduct  and  be  removed  when  it  is  proper.  If  the  resolution  be  agreed  to  without 
amendment,  the  Legislature  will  not  have  power  to  remove  the  evils  complained 
of.  There  is  no  provision  in  it  for  tlie  trial  and  removal  of  clerks  for  corruption  in 
office;  and  if  the  General  Court  be  continued  and  no  such  provision  made,  the  clerks 
of  county  courts  at  least,  must  hereafter,  (as  heretofore)  be  tried  in  that  court  for  cor- 
ruption. This  mode  of  impeachment,  or,  more  properly  speaking,  of  prosecution  and 
trial  in  the  general,  is  a  very  ineffijctual  remedy  against  dishonest  clerks,  and  never  can 
correct  the  existing  evils.  The  clerks  of  the  other  courts,  may  be  removed  in  such 
manner  as  the  Legislature  may  prescribe.  But  the  resolution  provides  the  courts 
shall  appoint  their  own  clerks — the  Legislature  can  never  divest  them  of  this  power ; 
the  law  can  only  fix  the  tenure  of  office,  and  it  will  be  in  vain  to  make  it  an  office 
for  a  term  of  years  to  get  rid  of  dishonest  clerks.  The  courts  are  to  be  independent, 
almost  of  all  human  power,  and  can,  and  no  doubt  will,  re-appoint  their  clerks  as 
often  as  they  shall  think  proper  so  to  do. 

The  amendment  which  he  proposed  would  give  the  Legislature  full  power  over 
the  whole  subject,  excepting  that  no  clerk  could  be  appointed  for  a  longer  term  than 
five  years  at  any  one  thne.  If  it  was  proper  for  the  courts  to  appoint  the  clerks, 
they  would  be  permitted  to  do  it — if  not,  it  would  be  done  in  some  other  form.  The 
remedy  against  the  abuses  to  which  the  people  are  exposed,  will  not  be  sufficient  to 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


743 


secure  correction,  unless  the  Legislature  shall  have  power  to  take  the  appointment  of 
these  officers  out  of  the  hands  of  the  courts  altogether.  The  courts  will  not  regard 
the  complaints  of  the  people.  They  being  in  office  for  life,  are  independent  of  the 
people,  will  keep  their  clerks  so  too,  if  they  can,  and  there  is  nothing  in  the  resolu- 
tion to  prevent  it. 

These  officers  annually  fleece  the  people  of  the  State,  and,  indeed,  too  frequently 
put  in  the  shears  before  the  fleece  is  half  grown,  and  they  are  so  independent  and 
powerful  in  their  offices,  that  it  is  almost  impossible  to  make  resistance  against  their 
demands.  The  fees  are  regulated  by  law  it  is  true,  but  the  clerks  determine  the  con- 
struction of  the  law  themselves — they  determine  the  price  of  their  own  labour — ren- 
der their  own  judgments — issue  their  own  executions,  and  enforce  payment  at  discre- 
tion. The  remedy  against  them  for  taking  unlawful  fees  is  ineff'ectual.  It  is  in  the 
hands,  mainly,  of  the  justices  of  the  peace,  who  know  very  little  about  fee-bills,  and 
who  are  not  qualified  to  decide  on  them.  It  is  a  remedy  which  does  not  extend  to  re- 
moval, and  is  seldom  resorted  to,  and  there  is  so  much  difficulty  and  uncertainty  in 
prosecuting  them  before  the  General  Court,  and  so  many  modes  of  getting  rid  of  con- 
viction, that  they  are  almost  independent  of  all  power :  they  can  do  right  or  wrong  at 
their  own  discretion,  with  very  little  danger  of  their  ever  being  removed. 

The  clerks  exercise  no  little  influence  in  the  election  of  members  of  Assembly  in 
all  the  counties.  There  are  two  clerkships,  and  very  frequently,  two  clerks  in  each 
county,  and,  by  their  constant  exertions,  they  are  able  to  wield  elections  in  very  many 
instances.  They  are  permanent — their  exertions  constant — and  their  weight  will  be 
felt  in  every  election.  If  men  of  independence  and  patriotism,  attempt  to  reform  the 
law  in  relation  to  their  fees,  these  same  clerks  are  the  first  to  strike  their  fangs  into 
the  character  of  such  representatives  of  the  people,  and  raise  opposition  to  their  fu- 
ture elections.  They  are  the  chief  politicians  in  many  counties,  and  have  something 
to  do  with  almost  every  office ;  and  while  they  exercise  the  influence  and  power  they 
now  enjoy,  the  people  cannot  hope  for  a  revision  of  the  fee-bills.  He  said,  as  he  had 
before  stated,  if  independent  courts  have  the  appointment  of  their  own  clerks  secured 
to  them,  the  clerks  will  be  independent  too.  He  hoped  the  amendment  would  be 
adopted.  It  would  give  the  Legislature  full  power  over  the  subject,  except  that 
clerks  could  not  be  appointed  for  life  as  they  now  are. 

Mr.  Scott  said,  that  all  the  resolution  declared,  was,  that  the  clerks  should  be  ap- 
pointed by  the  court:  all  other  things  in  relation  to  the  office  were  left  absolutely  to 
the  disposal  of  the  Legislature.  They  might  provide  for  the  prosecution  of  these  of- 
ficers— their  exclusion  from  office — the  punishment  of  their  oflfences — the  regulation 
of  their  emoluments — all  was  left  with  the  Assembly,  except  their  appointment.  And 
where  could  that  be  better  lodged  than  in  the  courts,  whose  officers  they  were  }  How 
else  would  gentlemen  have  them  appointed.''  elected  by  the  people  by  the  Legisla- 
ture by  the  Governor  None  of  these  modes,  he  presumed,  would  be  contended  for. 
How  then the  gentleman  had  not  suggested  any  better  mode. 

Mr.  Morgan  said  he  would  beg  leave  to  amend  his  amendment  by  striking  out  the 
word  "  five,"  so  as  to  leave  a  blank  to  be  filled  hereafter.  Some  gentlemen  preferred 
a  different  term — he  was  not  particular  as  to  the  length  of  time,  but  did  not  wish  the 
Legislature  to  have  power  to  give  the  clerks  life  estates. 

He  said  it  was  not  necessary  to  say  what  mode  of  appointment  he  preferred.  If  the 
Legislature  shall  think  proper  to  confer  the  power  upon  the  courts,  and  they  shall  exer- 
cise it  judiciously  and  properly,  they  will  be  permitted  to  keep  it ;  but  if  they  should 
act  improperly  and  make  bad  appointments,  the  Legislature  can  find  some  other 
power  which  will  give  satisfaction. 

He  would  remark,  in  addition  to  what  he  had  before  said,  that  no  man  could 
doubt  that  the  clerks'  fees  in  Virginia  exceed  the  whole  land-tax  of  the  State. 
They  greatly  exceed  the  whole  slave-tax — and  yet  the  Convention  is  about  to  con- 
fer the  appointment  of  all  these  officers  on  the  Judicial  branch  of  the  Government — 
a  branch  wholly  independent  of  the  people,  who  pay  so  great  a  sum  of  money. 
The  Convention  has  been  engaged  more  than  two  months  in  the  discussion  of  the 
basis  of  Representation  in  connexion  with  taxation  and  responsibility;  and  here  is  a 
class  of  officers  to  be  made  independent,  with  power  to  fleece  the  people  of  as  much 
money  as  would  be  necessary  for  the  support  of  the  Government  hereafter !  The 
duties  of  a  clerk,  are  mainly  mechanical,  and  are  generally  performed  by  under 
clerks,  boys,  or  mere  scriveners.  They  are  not  such  as  require  independence  in  of- 
fice ;  but  to  the  contrary,  they  require  responsibility.  There  was  one  other  considera- 
tion he  would  suggest.  Tlie  Legislature  might  provide  that  offices  should  be  given 
out  to  good  and  responsible  men,  who  would  pay  into  the  treasury  for  the  support  of 
Government,  such  sums  as  would  be  just  and  right,  for  the  accruing  fees.  In  large 
counties,  where  much  business  is  done,  the  fees  make  great  estates  for  the  clerks,  but 
in  small  ones,  they  are  a  mere  competence.  The  fees  cannot  be  regulated,  so  as  to 
be  larger  in  some  counties  than  others.  They  must  be  uniform  through  the  State ; 
but  it  is  possible  that  some  part  of  the  revenue  might  be  drawn  from  them,  with  ad- 
vantage to  the  public. 


744 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke  asked  for  the  ayes  and  noes,  and  they  were  ordered  by 
the  House. 

Mr.  Neale  then  addressed  the  House  as  follows  : 

Mr.  President, — I  rise  to  make  a  single  remark.  The  character  which  the  gentle- 
man from  Monongaha  (Mr.  Morgan)  has  given  of  the  clerks  of  courts,  of  his  part  of 
the  country,  has  struck  me  with  astonishment.  He  says,  they  make  large  fortunes 
by  dishonest  means — they  fleece  the  people — that  their  shears  are  at  work  before  the 
fleece  be  full  grown.  This  to  me  is  most  extraordinary — and  for  fear  that  people  at 
a  distance  may  really  believe  that  this  is  the  true  character  of  the  clerks  generally  in 
Virginia,  I  ask  of  you  and  this  Convention  to  bear  me  out,  when  I  declare  that  they 
are  among  the  most  careful  and  honorable  men  any  where  to  be  found.  Most  sin- 
cerely do  I  deplore  the  condition  of  the  people  from  among  whom  the  gentleman 
comes,  in  having  such  rogues  for  their  clerks. 

It  is  certainly  not  the  case  in  those  parts  of  Virginia  with  which  I  am  acquainted, 
and  I  trust  that  the  gentleman  has  mistaken  the  character  of  the  clerks  with  whom 
he  is  acquainted. 

Mr.  Leigh  rose  to  inform  Mr.  Morgan  that  where  a  clerk  was  guilty  of  malfeasance 
in  his  office,  the  court  were  now  bound  by  law  to  turn  him  out. 

Mr.  Cabell  testified  to  the  honorable  character  of  the  present  incumbent  of  the  of- 
fice in  his  district;  but  observed,  that  such  might  not  be  the  character  of  his  successor. 
He  thought  it  important  that  there  should  be  a  way  of  reaching  justices  of  the  peace 
and  clerks  of  the  county  courts  through  the  Legislature.  As  matters  now  stood,  no 
man  could  be  elected  to  the  Legislature,  if  either  the  bench  or  the  clerk  were  oppo- 
sed to  his  election. 

Mr.  Morgan  said,  he  did  not  impute  wrong  to  the  clerks  of  any  peculiar  part  of  the 
State ;  nor  to  those  who  do  their  duty  and  act  honestly.  Every  person  knows  how 
the  duties  are  performed.  It  is  not  unfrequent  for  boys  to  discharge  them,  and  col- 
lect fees,  which  are  afterwards  charged  and  collected  when  the  principal  sends  out 
his  annual  fee  bills.  Men  would  rather  pay  small  fees  a  second  time,  than  go  to  the 
trouble  and  expense  of  having  them  corrected.  They  will  sustain  a  loss  rather  than 
go  to  law  with  a  clerk,"  as  it  is  said.  Mistakes  will  occur  with  the  best  of  clerks, 
but  if  they  can  be  put  under  a  just  responsibility,  these  mistakes  will  not  be  so  fre- 
quent hereafter  as  they  have  been. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  tliat  he  had  resided  within  the  district  where  his  home  now 
was  for  thirty-three  years ;  he  had  known  every  clerk  of  the  court  within  that  period 
of  time ;  and  he  would  state  in  his  place  that  he  had  never  known  a  race  of  more 
honorable  men.  Not  one  within  that  time  had  to  his  knowledge  fleeced  the  people, 
or  sheared  them,  in  season  or  out  of  season,  or  permitted  boys  to  issue  fee  tickets; 
bxit  had  properly  attended  to  the  duties  of  their  office. 

The  question  was  now  taken  and  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows : 

Ajes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffinan,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Miller,  Baxter,  Oglesby, 
Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Saunders 
and  Cabell— 15. 

JYoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Clopton,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  Smith,  Mason  of  Southampton, 
Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madi- 
•son,  Stanard,  Plolladay,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell, 
Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan, 
Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Cloyd, 
Chapman,  Mathews,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott, 
Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Claytor,  Branch,  Townes,  Mar- 
tin, Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes, 
Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 80. 

So  Mr.  Morgan's  amendment  was  rejected,  and  the  original  resolution  was  adopted. 

The  Chair  then  proceeded  to  the  next  resolution,  which  provided  for  the  impeach- 
ment of  Judges  before  the  Senate ;  when  Mr.  Johnson  rose  to  offer  an  amendment 
calling  to  the  aid  of  the  Senate,  a  portion  of  the  Judiciary,  to  constitute  a  court  of 
impeachment. 

The  hour  being  late,  on  motion  of  Mr.  Stanard,  the  amendment  was  for  the  present 
laid  upon  the  table. 

Mr.  Stanard  moved,  that  when  the  House  adjourned,  it  should  adjourn  to  meet  on 
Saturday,  (to-morrow  being  Christmas  Day.) 

After  some  conversation  on  this  subject,  and  a  motion  by  Mr.  Upshur  being  lost  to 
extend  the  adjournment  to  Monday,  Mr.  Randolph  remarked  that  he  hoped  the  anni- 
versary of  the  Prince  of  Peace,  of  Him  who  came  to  bring  peace  on  earth  and  good 
will  to  men,  would  not  be  kept  by  their  wrangling  there. 

The  motion  was  then  agreed  to,  and  the  House  adjourned  to  Saturday,  11  <? 'clock. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


745 


SATURDAY,  December  2G,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  vrith  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Taylor  of  the  Baptist  Church. 

The  question  was  on  the  seventli  resolution  of  the  Judicial  Committee,  which  is  in 
the  following  words  : 

''Resolved,  That  tlie  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals  and  of  the  inferior  courts,  of- 
fendino-  aofainst  the  State,  either  by  mal-administraticn,  corruption,  orneg-Iect  of  duty, 
or  by  any  high  crime  or  misdemeanor,  shall  be  impeachable  by  the  House  of  Dele- 
gates, such  impeachment  to  be  prosecuted  before  the  Senate.  If  found  guilty  by  two- 
thirds  of  the  whole  Senate,  such  persons  shall  be  removed  from  office.  And  any 
Judge  so  impeached  shall  be  suspended  from  exercising  the  functions  of  liis  office 
until  his  acquittal,  or  until  the  impeachment  shall  be  discontinued  or  withdrawn." 

To  which  Mr.  Johnson  had  proposed  the  following  amendment,  viz :  to  strike  out 
the  word  Senate,"  and  insert  a  court,  constituted  in  the  manner  following,  that  is 
to  say — if  a  Judge  of  the  Court  of  Appeals  be  impeached,  the  court  for  his  trial  shall 
consist  of  at  least  two-thirds  of  the  Vv-hole  number  of  Senators,  and  a  majority  of  the 
Judges  of  the  inferior  courts — and  if  a  Judge  of  an  inferior  court  be  impeached,  the 
court  for  his  trial  shall  be  composed  of  the  same  number  of  Senators  and  a  majority 
of  the  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals" — and  instead  of  "  Senate"  in  the  following 
line  insert  court." 

After  some  conversation  as  to  laying  the  resolution  on  the  table  and  adjourning 
(the  heavy  rain  having  detained  infirm  members  from  their  seats,)  it  was  at  length 
concluded  to  proceed  with  the  consideration  of  the  amendment. 

Mr.  Johnson  spoke  thus  : 

I  would  very  willingly,  Mr.  Chairman,  were  I  capable,  give  to  the  House  the  in- 
formation which  the  member  from  Frederick  has  supposed  me  desirous  to  give,  in  re- 
lation to  the  amendment  I  have  offered — but  I  am  not — and  I  feel  very  little  anxious 
for  the  fate  of  that  amendment.  I  have  risen,  not  to  vindicate  it  by  argument,  but 
very  brieily  to  explain  the  simple  grounds  on  which  it  rests. 

The  Judicial  Committee  prefer,  that  the  Senate  of  the  State  shall  be  the  tribunal  for 
the  trial  of  impeachments  against  Judges  ;.  these  impeaclmients  being  preferred  and 
prosecuted  by  the  House  of  Delegates.  I  propose  that  this  tribunal  shall  consist  not 
of  the  Senate  alone,  but  of  two-thirds  at  least  of  the  Senators,  and  a  portion  of  the 
Judiciary — that  when  a  Judcre  of  the  Court  of  Appea,ls  shall  be  impeached,  a  majority  of 
the  Judges  of  the  Inferior  Courts  shall  be  associated  with  the  Senators ;  and  when  a 
Judge  of  an  Inferior  Court  shall  be  impeached,  a  majority  of  the  Court  of  Appeals  shall 
unite  with  the  Senators  in  forming  the  court  for  his  trial. 

The  obvious  purpose  of  this  amendment  is,  to  assure  legal  talent  and  legal  informa- 
tion to  the  court  charged  with  the  trial  of  the  highest  legal  prosecutions  :  and  I  should 
suppose  that  an  advantage  so  manifest  could  not  fail  to  recommend  itself  to  favour, 
unless  it  brought  with  it  some  countervailing  evil. 

The  Senate  will  no  doubt,  in  time  to  come,  as  it  has  heretofore,  and  does  now,  pos- 
sess in  general,  a  respectable  portion  of  legal  learning  and  ability.  But  the  constitu- 
tion of  That  body  does  not  necessarily  require,  that  any  of  its  members  should  belong 
to  the  profession  of  the  law,  and  occasions  may  occur,  when  there  will  be  little  if  any 
professional  ability  in  it ;  whatever  there  may  be.  it  will  always  belong  to  the  bar,  aH*d 
for  the  most  part  not  to  the  most  experienced  part  of  the  bar;  and  I  respectfully  sub- 
mit it  to  the  good  sense  of  the  Convention,  whether  that  is  the  kind  of  legal  talent 
to  which  we  can  most  safely  refer  the  important  duty  of  expounding  the  law,  and  ad- 
ministering justice  in  those  State  trials,  which  may  enlist  the  feelings  and  involve  the 
interests  of  the  whole  Commonwealth. 

There  is  a  well-known  and  wide  distinction  between  the  operations  of  that  mind, 
which  is  habitually  engaged  in  forensic  discussion,. in  controversial  debates  indiffer- 
ently on  the  one  side  or  the  other  of  any  question,  and  of  that  which  is  led  by  duty, 
carefully  to  guard  against  all  improper  influences,  to  search  diligently  and  impartially 
for  truth  and  justice,  and  firmly  to  apply  their  doctrines,  whether  popular  or  unpopu- 
lar ;  whether  agreeable  to  the  prosecutor  or  favourable  to  the  accused.  The  former  is 
seldom  at  a  loss  for  plausible  reasons,  to  persuade  it  to  follow  its  own  predilections, 
while  the  latter  rarely  fails  to  disabuse  itself  of  prejudice,  to  find  the  path  of  duty 
and  to  follow  it.  We  all  know,  too,  that  the  habit  of  defending  criminal  prosecutions 
begets  in  the  members  of  the  bar,  a  strong  prepossession  in  Tavour  of  the  accused; 
and  that  it  is  one  of  the  first  fruits  of  the  Judicial  office  to  correct  that  prepossession. 
It  is  to  the  impartial,  well-informed  and  well-balanced  minds  of  the  Judiciary,  to  men 
long  in  the  habit  of  administering  justice,  that  I  would  look  for  aid  to  the  court  of  im- 
peachments in  the  discharge  of  their  duties. 

What  is  to  be  feared  from  introducing  the  Judges  into  this  tribunal?  Is  it,  that  the 
esprit  du  corps  will  give  to  their  minds  an  improper  bias  in  favour  of  an  accused  bro- 
ther   This  fear,  I  tliink.  cannot  be  well  founded.  Remember,  that  the  Judges  of  one 

94 


746 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


corps,  are  to  preside  at  the  trial  of  those  of  another — that  the  Judges  will  vote  only 
in.  common  witli  the  Senators,  and  will  constitute,  in  tlie  general,  a  small  minority  of 
the  court — that  their  province  will  be,  not  to  controul,  but  to  enlighten  the  judgment 
of  their  associates — that  their  judgments  will  be  subject  to  the  criticism  of  the  coun- 
sel, in  whose  presence  they  are,  and  that  to  be  efficacious,  they  must  be  recommended 
by  reason  and  justice.  Remember  too,  that  these  Judges,  who  will  not  have  the  fate 
of  the  accused  in  their  hands,  will  be  surrounded  by  the  intelligent,  honest,  and  firm 
representatives  of  the  people,  ready  to  detect  and  expose  the  indulgence  of  any  im- 
proper partiality — And  can  there  be  any  reasonable  fear  indulged,  of  the  influence  of 
the  esprit  du  corps?  It  seems  to  me  that  nothing  is  to  be  feared,  and  that  something 
valuable  may  be  gained  from  the  assistance  of  the  Judges. 

It  should  not  be  forgotten,  that  impeachments  generally  originate  in  the  dissatisfac- 
tions of  the  people — sometimes  in  party  spirit — and  may  sometimes  grow  out  of  con- 
troversies between  the  Legislative  and  Judicial  departments,  and  that  they  are  always 
preferred  and  prosecuted  by  the  House  of  Delegates,  the  immediate  representatives  of  the 
people.  If,  then,  they  are  to  be  tried  by  the  Senate  alone,  also  the  representatives  of  the 
same  people,  is  there  not  some  reason  to  fear,  that  this  tribunal,  though  somewhat 
farther  removed  from  the  people,  than  the  Delegates  are,  and  more  independent,  be- 
cause of  the  tenure  of  their  office,  would  yet  be  often  partakers  of  the  public  discon- 
tent, subject  to  the  same  part}'  influences,"  which  animated  the  prosecution;  parties, 
in  the  strictest  sense,  to  the  controversy,  out  of  which  the  prosecution  may  have 
grown — and,  therefore,  strongly  prejudiced  against  the  accused And  might  not  the 
grave  counsels  of  the  Judiciary,  in  such  cases,  serve  the  valuable  purpose  of  temper- 
ing a  misguided  zeal,  correcting  the  errors  of  prejudice,  and  holding  up  to  the  consti- 
tuent body,  the  light  of  truth,  by  which  the  judgment  of  this  tribunal  should  be  re- 
judged  ? 

The  framers  of  our  Constitution,  were  so  little  jealous  of  the  Judiciary,  and  so  little 
apprehended  the  influence  of  the  esprit  (hi  corps,  that  they  made  all  impeachments 
cognizable  before  the  ordinary  courts  of  justice,  and  our  early  legislation  seems  rather 
to  have  guarded  against  the  undue  influence  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  than  against 
the  partiality  of  the  Judges.  An  impartial  jury,  for  the  trial  of  the  facts  put  in  issue, 
was  provided,  the  right  of  challenge  reserved  to  the  accused;  and  it  was  expressly 
provided,  that,  unless  at  his  request,  the  impeachment  should  not  be  tried,  during  the 
session  of  the  Legislature. 

Happily,  we  have  had  no  experience  of  the  operation  of  these  laws  in  Virginia, 
there  having  been  no  instance  of  an  impeachment,  since  the  foundation  of  our  Gov- 
ernment. 

In  the  Government  of  the  United  States,  where  the  Senate  is  the  tribunal  for  the 
trial  of  impeachments,  there  have  been  two  such  prosecutions.  William  Blount,  a 
Senator  of  the  United  States,  was  impeached,  after  he  had  been  expelled  from  that 
body.  But,  his  case  was  not  tried  on  the  merits;  it  went  off",  on  a  plea,  that  he  was 
not  amenable  to  the  prosecution  of  impeachment,  not  being  a  "  civil  officer,"  within 
the  true  construction  of  the  Constitution.  Judge  Chase's  impeachment  was  tried  and 
decided  on  its  merits.  I  do  not  quote  it,  for  the  purpose  of  criticising  the  trial — 
though  I  believe,  that  the  incidents  attending  it,  left  very  few  under  the  impression, 
that  the  Senate  of  the  United  States  was  the  most  fit  tribunal  for  the  trial  of  im- 
ppeachments.  I  mention  this  trial,  principally  for  the  purpose  of  impressing  on  the 
minds  of  the  Convention  two  truths. 

The  first  is,  that  the  impeachments  of  Judicial  officers,  sometimes  arise  from  the 
conflicts  of  party  politics — as  this  unquestionably  did.  I  have  nothing  to  say  of  the 
merits  of  the  prosecution  or  the  accused — but  it  is  very  manifest,  that  the  spirit 
which  maintained,  and  that  vrhich  defended  this  prosecution,  was  just  as  likely  to  find 
a  place  in  the  bosom  of  the  Senate,  as  in  that  of  the  House  of  Representatives. 

The  next  is,  that  in  the  trial  of  impeachments  against  a  Judicial  officer,  it  is  often 
of  the  last  importance  to  have  the  law  correctly  expounded.  Judge  Chase  was  accused 
among  other  things,  of  violating  the  law  of  Virginia  and  perverting  it  to  the  unwor- 
thy purposes  of  a  party  prosecution.  He  had  certainly  interpreted  a  Virginia  statute 
against  the  opinion  of  the  Virginia  bar,  and  contrary  to  the  practice  of  some  of  the 
Virginia  courts.  The  first  important  question,  therefore,  which  arose  under  this 
charge  was,  whether  he  had  correctly  interpreted  the  Virginia  law — and  it  was  found 
upon  careful  examination,  that  a  Judge  belonging  to  another  State,  who  had  never 
before  administered  justice  in  Virginia,  had  given  the  correct  interpretation  to  a  Vir- 
ginia statute,  though  Virginia  lawj^ers  and  Virginia  Judges  had  before  thought  other- 
wise. This  should  be  a  lesson  to  us,  of  the  value  of  legal  talents,  in  the  trial  of  im- 
peachments. 

I  have  been  reminded  of  another  impeachment,  before  the  Senate  of  the  United 
States,  that  of  Judge  Pickering — who  was  convicted  of  intoxication,  while  in  the  dis- 
charge of  his  official  duties,  and  removed  from  office — but  the  incidents  of  his  prosecu- 
tion threw  no  light  on  the  question  we  are  considering. 


DEBATES    OF    THE  CONVENTION. 


747 


I  have  explained  my  views  in  offering  this  amendment;  and  willingly  leave  ii  to  be 
disposed  of  by  the  Convention. 

Mr.  Nicholas  stated,  that  since  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta, 
(Mr.  Jolmson.)  was  announced  on  Thursday,  he  had  given  to  it  the  best  consideration 
in  his  power,  and  that  too.  under  the  influence  of  the  deference  which  he  was  always 
disposed  to  feel  for  the  judgment  of  the  gentleman  who  proposed  it.  But  the  result 
of  his  best  reflections  on  the  subject,  was.  that  it  would  be  inexpedient  to  alter  the 
resolution  of  tlie  Judiciary  Committee,  in  the  manner  pointed  out  in  the  amendment. 
The  Judiciary  Committee  proposes  to  constitute  the  courts  of  impeachment  for  the 
trial  of  a  Judge,  and  requires  the  assent  of  two-thirds  to  convict. 

The  amendment  recommends  that  a  portion  of  the  Judges  should  be  added  to  the 
Senate,  to  make  up  that  court.  The  question  is  not  a  new  one  in  the  United  States. 
It  was  discussed  during  the  time  that  the  Constitution  of  the  General  Government 
vs^as  under  consideration,  in  the  numbers  of  the  Federalist.  This  celebrated  work, 
■which  has  been  frequently  referred  to  in  this  House,  was  written,  to  recommend  the 
adoption  of  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  by  gentlemen  who  had  assisted  in 
its  formation,  and  who.  of  course,  believed  that  it  was  calculated  to  promote  the  public 
happiness.  I  do  not  consider  this  work  as  binding  authority,  but  entitled  to  high  con- 
sideration and  respect,  not  only  as  being  the  production  of  great  and  enlightened 
Statesmen,  but  as  containing  very  able  and  full  examinations  of  every  topic  which  it 
professes  to  discuss.  In  the  sixty-fifth  and  sixty-sixth  numbers,  an  enquiry  is  made 
into  the  propriety  of  having  established  the  Senate  of  the  United  States  as  the  court 
for  the  trial  of  impeachments.  In  the  course  of  the  discussion,  the  writer  contrasts 
with  the  plan  recommended  by  the  Constitution,  several  others  that  might  be  sug- 
gested. Amongst  these,  he  considers  the  propriety  of  uniting  the  Supreme  Court 
with  the  Senate,  in  the  formation  of  the  court  of  impeachments,  and  the  result  to 
which  he  comes,  is.  that  such  an  union  would  be  unwise  and  impolitic.  The  reason- 
ing employed  by  this  writer,  combined  with  my  own  reflections,  has  brought  me  to 
the  same  conclusion.  I  do  not  mean  to  state  in  detail,  the  arguments  used  by  ihe 
Federalist — I  will  mention  one  which  appears  to  me  to  have  great  weight.  But,  by 
the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  and  that  of  this  State,  on  conviction  by  im- 
peachment, the  party  is  liable  to  the  sentence  of  removal  from  oSice.  and  disqualifi- 
cation for  future  ofiice.  But  punishm.ent  does  not  terminate  here — he  is  still  liable  to 
prosecution  and  punishment  in  the  ordinary  course  of  law. 

If  the  Judges  are  to  be  his  triers  in. the  court  of  impeachment,  there  would  be  a 
peculiar  injustice  and  impropriety  in  the  same  Judges  sitting  on  the  same  cause  when 
tried  in  a  court  of  law.  and  bringing  with  them  to  that  trial  pre-conceived  and  pub- 
licly declared  convictions  of  the  guilt  of  the  accused.  But  there  are  other  considera- 
tions, which  have  greater  weight  with  me,  applicable  to  the  amendment.  It  is  pro- 
posed to  unite  the  Judges  with  the  Senate,  for  the  trial  of  a  Judge.  Does  not  this 
violate  first  principles,  and  all  the  opinions  which  we  form  on  this  subject  ?  The  uni- 
versal sentiment  seems  to  require  that  all  causes,  both  civil  and  criminal,  should  be 
referred  to  triers  who  are  impartial  and  disinterested.  It  is  a  good  exception  to  a 
juror,  that  he  has  an  interest  in  the  matter.  But  it  may  be  said  that  it  is  no  excep- 
tion to  a  juror,  that  he  has  an  interest  in  a  similar  question  to  that  under  trial,  unless 
he  is  interested  in  the  matter  in  issue.  This  may  be  technically  true — but  no  man 
would  like  to  have  his  cause  tried  by  a  juror  who  had  a  similar  question  unsettled. 

In  the  formation  of  this  court  of  impeachment,  we  are  not  tied  down  by  technical 
rules — we  are  to  look  to  the  substance  of  things,  and  ought  to  guard  against  latent 
and  probable  influences,  as  well  as  those  which  are  palpable  and  immediate.  Viewed 
in  this  light,  can  there  be  a  doubt,  that  all  Judges  must  be  more  or  less  interested  in  the 
questions  which  will  erise  in  the  trial  of  a  particular  Judge  .'  3Iust  not  they  settle 
principles  and  rules,  in  which  they  are  interested In  these  enquiries  must  be 
frequently  involved  the  powers  of  the  Judges.  They  must  decide  what  amounts  to 
misbehaviour  in  ofiice,  in  the  extended  sense  of  that  word.  In  short,  they  may  be 
called  upon  to  examine  and  define  the  whole  range  of  Judicial  duties,  and  to  pro- 
nounce what  acts  constitute  a  violation  of  them.  It  is  not  consistent  with  human 
nature,  that  the  purest  and  firmest  Judge  should  be  free  from  all  bias,  sitting  in  such 
a  case.  It  is  unwise  and  improper,  to  expose  any  Judge  to  such  a  trial  of  his  forti- 
tude and  his  virtue.  It  is  highly  important,  that  the  tribunals  of  the  country  should 
possess  the  public  confidence  in  their  justice  and  impartiality.  This  is  particularly 
true,  in  relation  to  this  court,  which  is  to  investigate  the  conduct,  and  punish  the  de- 
linquency of  men  high  in  station  and  authoritv.  The  Judges  of  such  a  court  should 
not  only  be  free  from  bias  or  interest,  but,  like  Caesar's  w^ife,  they  should  be  unsus- 
pected. 

But  it  is  urged  by  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  that  it  is  important  that  the  Judo-es 
should  constitute  a  part  of  the  court,  that  it  may  possess  within  itself  that  knowledo-e 
of  the  law.  which  is  necessary  to  a  correct  decision.  I  do  not  think  this  a  sufiicient 
reason.    Tlie  Senators  are  chosen  from  large  districts  of  country,  and  we  have  a  right 


748 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


to  suppose  that  they  will  generally  be  men  of  intelligence.  In  point  of  fact  too, 
many  of  them  always  have  been,  and  always  will  be  lawyers;  and  after  hearing  a 
cause  ably  discussed  by  eminent  counsel,  (who  will  generally  be  engaged,)  there  can 
be  little  doubt,  but  that  the  Senate  will  be  enabled  to  decide  it  with  propriety.  It  is 
also  worthy  of  remark,  that  the  kind  of  offences  for  which  impeachments  are  brought, 
are  frequently  in  their  nature  political,  and  are  more  dependent  on  general  principles 
than  strict  technical  learning,  as  is  explained  in  one  of  the  numbers  of  the  Federalist 
alluded  to.  The  Senate,  it  appears  to  me,  will  be  a  competent  tribunal,  and  I  can  see 
no  motive  which  it  can  have  to  pronounce  an  unjust  sentence  against  a  Judge ;  and 
the  requisition  of  two-thirds  to  convict,  is  a  sufficient  security  against  the  influence 
of  the  spirit  of  party,  or  of  those  sudden  impulses  to  which  public  bodies  are  some- 
times exposed. 

The  gentleman  from  Augusta  endeavors  to  obviate  the  objection  to  a  supposed  bias 
in  the  minds  of  the  Judges,  by  saying  that  they  would  be  restrained  by  the  presence 
of  the  Senators,  and  of  the  able  counsel  who  can  scan  their  decisions,  and  by  their 
sense  of  dignity  and  responsibility  to  public  opinion.  This  argument  is  not  inconsis. 
tent  with,  but  rather  pre-supposes  an  inherent  bias  in  the  minds  of  the  Judges.  It 
supposes  that  this  tendency  is  fenced  round  by  guards  and  securities,  which  will  dis- 
arm it  of  its  mischief.  But  to  me,  it  seems  better  to  take  a  tribunal  originally  disin- 
terested, than  to  select  one,  which  can  only  be  rendered  so  by  counteractions  to  its 
natural  infirmities. 

This  part  of  the  Constitution  has  never  been  acted  on  ;  and  it  is  a  remarkable  proof 
of  the  purity  of  those  concerned  in  the  administration  of  our  laAvs,that  in  fifty-four 
years  not  one  individual  has  been  prosecuted  by  impeachment. 

Mr.  N.  said  it  always  appeared  to  him,  that  the  Constitution  of  Virginia  was  more 
defective  in  regard  to  impeachments,  than  in  any  other  respect — and  amongst  other 
objections,  is  the  provision  which  directs,  that  the  Judges  shall  be  triers  of  their 
brethi'en. 

Mr.  N.  said  he  was  decidedly  friendly  to  the  independence  of  the  Judiciary,  in  the 
sense  he  understood  that  term.  His  votes  in  this  body  would  prove  this.  He  was  for  their 
tenure  being  during  good  behaviour,  and  he  was  against  the  removal  of  Judges  without 
cause,  as  is  proposed  in  some  resolutions  before  this  House.  But  whilst  such  was  his 
opinion,  he  was  equally  opposed  to  their  being  irresponsible,  or  being  above  the  law. 
It  cannot  be  disguised,  that  considerable  dissatisfaction  prevailed  in  the  public  mind, 
as  to  the  organization  of  the  Judiciary  Department.  He  trusted  he  was  not  more 
liable  than  others  to  be  influenced  by  mere  popular  clamour  ;  but  in  all  countries,  par- 
ticularly in  free  ones,  much  respect  is  due  to  public  sentiment;  and  it  should  have  an 
influence,  when  we  are  called  upon  to  revise  our  public  institutions.  The  proper  re- 
sponsibility of  Judges  is  called  for  by  public  opinion.  To  it,  as  well  as  that  of  every 
other  public  functionary,  an  efficient  court  of  impeachment  is  essential — the  people 
ask  it  at  your  hands.  "  If  they  ask  for  bread,  will  you  give  them  a  stone I  an- 
swer, no.  It  is  proper  to  guard  their  tenure  of  office  from  invasion,  but  to  interpose 
no  shield  against  just  responsibility.  I  consider  the  Judicial  Department  as  one  of 
the  most  important  in  our  Government ;  and  I  will  give  no  vote  which  shall  impair 
its  independence,  and  I  consider  myself  as  acting  as  its  real  friend,  when  I  wish  to 
avoid  placing  it  in  a  situation,  in  which,  if  it  does  not  incur  well-merited  censure,  it 
may  be  exposed  to  suspicion. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke,  asked  for  the  ayes  and  noes,  which  were  taken  accordingly 
and  stood  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Johnson,  Duncan,  Pleasants  and  Rose — 4. 

Noes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Brodnax,  Droragoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Nicholas,  Anderson, 
Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Bax- 
ter, Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay, 
Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of^  Frederick, 
Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington, 
Byars,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Garnett,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby, 
Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Barbour 
of  Culpeper,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bed- 
ford, Claytor,  Saunders,  Branch,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie, 
Bates,  Neale,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 83. 

The  seventh  and  eighth  resolutions  were  for  the  present  laid  upon  the  table. 

Mr.  Henderson  announced  his  intention  to  move,  on  Monday  next,  the  re-conside- 
ration of  the  vote  of  the  Convention  touching  the  mode  of  electing  the  Governor ;  and 
in  the  event  of  the  success  of  the  motion,  that  he  should  move  two  resolutions,  which 
he  held  in  his  hand,  as  a  substitute  for  the  first,  second  and  third  resolutions  of  the 
Executive  Committee. 

Mr.  H.  stated  that  he  came  to  the  Convention  holding  the  opinion  that  the  people 
of  the  Commonwealth  ought  to  elect  their  Chief  Magistrate^  in  their  proper  charac- 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


749 


ter ;  but  that  it  tvas  a  part  of  his  plan  to  clothe  the  Executive  with  a  mass  of  power 
which  it  was  now  clearly  ascertained  this  body  was  not  willing  to  confer  on  him. 
This  discovery,  Mr.  H.  remarked,  had  greatly  diminished  his  interest  in  the  mode  of 
election.  He  further  said  that,  if  the  Legislature  itself  were  a  fair  representation  of 
public  opinion,  it  must  be  obvious,  as  had  been  observed  in  his  place  the  other  day  by 
the  gentleman  from  Patrick,  that  the  Governor  elected  by  it  would  be,  substantially, 
the  Governor  of  the  people  themselves.  For  those  reasons,  Mr.  H.  remarked,  that, 
although  he  still  preferred  the  popular  election,  he  was  ready  to  yield  his  preposses- 
sion, provided  any  great  object  could  be  attained  by  it.  He  observed  that  cool  reflec- 
tion would  satisfy  gentlemen,  that  nothing  in  the  way  of  reconciling  the  unfortunate 
differences  of  opinion  which  prevailed  in  the  body  upon  the  leading  subject  of  its  de- 
liberations, could  be  effected  without  a  spirit  of  frankness  and  manly  concession.  In 
this  spirit,  and  in  the  persuasion,  that  the  projet  which  the  worthy  gentleman  from 
Richmond  county  would  present,  was  fair  and  mutual,  he,  Mr.  H.  had  the  honour  to 
announce  his  intention  to  make  the  two  motions  which  he  adverted  to,  and  which 
were  a  constituent  part  of  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Richmond  county. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Cooke,  these  resolutions  were  laid  upon  the  table  and  ordered  to 
be  printed. 

Mr.  Neale  said,  that  believing  a  spirit  of  conciliation  and  compromise  now  pre- 
vailed in  the  Convention,  and  beginning  to  hope  that  they  should  frame  such  a  Con- 
stitution as  would  be  acceptable  to  the  people,  and  such  as  he  should  delight  to  see 
perpetuated,  and  trusting  that  his  motion  would  be  followed  by  others  in  the  same 
spirit,  he  would  offer  the  following  resolutions,  and  moved  that  they  lie  on  the  table 
and  be  printed  : 

"  1.  Resolved,  That  the  Senate  shall  consist  of  thirty-two  members  ;  nineteen  shall 
be  assigned  east  of  the  Blue  Ridge }  and  thirteen  west  thereof.  This  arrangement 
to  be  permanent. 

"2.  Resolved,  That  the  rule  to  re-apportion  representation  in  the  House  of  Dele- 
gates, shall  be  upon  the  resident  freeholders  of  the  Commonwealth  :  each  freehold  to 
be  of  an  assessed  value  of  not  less  than  twenty-five  dollars. 

"  The  application  of  this  rule,  first  to  take  place  in  the  year  1835,  and  every  twenty 
years  thereafter.  Provision  to  be  made  by  law  for  ascertaining  in  1834,  the  number 
of  freehold  voters  possessing  freeholds  of  the  assessed  value  of  not  less  than  twenty- 
five  dollars  in  the  several  towns  and  counties  of  this  Commonwealth." 

Mr.  Cooke  said,  he  had  been  aware  that  such  a  resolution  was  to  be  offered,  and  as 
at  present  advised,  it  was  his  purpose  to  vote  for  it;  but  he  should  i-eserve  himself  to- 
take  such  course  as  circumstances  might  in  his  judgment  render  proper.  He  thert 
OiTered  the  following : 

"1.  Resolved,  That  the  Judicial  power  shall  be  vested  in  a  Supreme  Court  of  Ap- 
peals, in  a  General  Court,  in  such  Superior  Courts  as  the  Legislature  shall  from  time 
to  time  ordain  and  establish,  in  the  County  Courts,  and  in  the  justices  of  the  peace 
who  shall  compose  the  said  courts.  The  Legislature  may  also  vest  such  jurisdiction 
as  may  be  deemed  necessary,  in  Corporation  Courts,  and  in  the  magistrates  who  may 
belong  to  the  corporate  body.  The  jurisdiction  of  these  tribunals  shall  be  regulated 
by  law. 

"  2.  The  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals,  of  the  General  Court,  and  of  the  said 
Superior  Courts,  sliall  hold  their  offices  during  good  behaviour,  or  until  removed  in 
the  manner  prescribed  in  this  Constitution;  and  shall,  at  the  same  time,  hold  no  other 
office,  appointment  or  public  trust;  and  the  acceptance  thereof  by  either  of  them  shall 
vacate  his  Judicial  office.  The  said  Judges  shall  be  bound  to  perform  any  and  all  Ju- 
dicial duties  imposed  on  them  from  time  to  time  by  law,  whether  as  Common  Law 
Judges,  or  Chancellors,  or  both. 

3.  The  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals,  of  the  General  Court  and  of  the  Supe- 
rior Courts,  offending  against  the  State,  either  by  mal-administration,  corruption,  or 
neglect  of  duty,  or  by  any  other  criine  or  misdemeanor,  shall  be  impeached  by  the 
House  of  Delegates;  such  impeachment  to  be  prosecuted  before  the  Senate.  If  found 
guilty  by  two-thirds  of  the  whole  Senate,  such  persons  shall  be  removed  from  office. 
And  any  Judge  so  impeached  shall  be  suspended  from  exercising  the  functions  of  his 
office  until  his  acquittal,  or  until  the  impeachment  shall  be  discontinued  or  withdrawn. 

"4.  That  Judges  may  be  removed  from  ofiice  by  a  vote  of  the  General  Assembly, 
without  the  assignment  of  any  cause  whatever;  but  two-thirds  of  the  whole  number 
of  each  House  must  concur  in  such  vote." 

Mr.  Claytor  moved  that  the  resolution  lie  on  the  table  and  be  printed. 

Mr.  Doddridge  submitted  the  following,  which  he  wished  should  for  the  present  lie 
on  the  table  : 

"  Resolved,  That  all  the  resolutions  adopted  by  this  Convention,  and  proposed  in  it^ 
be  referred  to  a  select  committee  of  members,  to  prepare  and  report,  either  a 
new  Constitution,  or  amendments  to  the  existing  one." 


750 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


On  motion  of  Mr,  Stuart  it  was  ordered  to  be  printed, 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke  submitted  the  following,  which  also  was  ordered  to  be 
printed  : 

"  Whereas  republican  institutions  and  the  blessings  of  free  Government  originated 
in,  and  must  always  depend  upon,  the  intelligence,  virtue  and  patriotism  of  the  com- 
munity ;  and  whereas  neither  intelligence  nor  virtue  can  be  maintamed  or  promoted 
in  any  community  without  education,  it  shall  always  be  the  duty  of  the  Legislature 
of  this  Commonwealth  to  patronize  and  encourage  such  a  system  of  education,  or 
such  common  schools  and  seminaries  of  learning,  as  will  in  their  wisdom  be  deemed 
to  be  most  conducive  to  secure  to  the  youth  of  this  Commonwealth,  such  an  educa- 
tion as  may  most  promote  the  public  good." 

Mr.  Stanard  now  moved  the  consideration  of  the  report  of  the  Committee  on  the 
Bill  of  Rights, 

The  first  and  second  resolutions  of  the  report  having  been  read,  after  some  further 
conversation,  it  was  agreed,  on  motion  of  Mr.  Doddridge,  to  lay  the  report  upon  the 
table. 

The  House  then  adjourned. 


MONDAY,  December  28, 1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Armstrong. 

Mr.  Stuart  moved  the  consideration  of  his  amendment  which  he  had  oifered  to  the 
second  resolution  of  the  Legislative  Committee, 

Mr.  Gordon  opposed  taking  up  the  amendment  at  all,  as  going  uselessly  to  renew 
the  discussion  upon  the  basis. 

Mr.  Stuart  did  not  intend  any  prolonged  discussion,  but  wished  to  have  his  propo- 
sition considered,  and  to  record  at  least  his  own  vote. 

Mr.  Gordon,  thinking  it  impossible  the  House  could  ever  agree  on  any  plan  for  fu- 
ture apportionment,  thought  they  might  as  well  make  this  a  test  question. 

Mr.  Powell  asked,  if  the  gentleman  meant  to  apply  the  same  remark  to  all  the 
questions  on  the  subject  of  representation  ? 

Mr.  Gordon  would  not  pledge  himself  on  this  subject,  but  should  vote  on  each 
question  as  it  came  up  in  such  mode  as  he  might  judge  right. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  the  declaration  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  was  rather 
alarming.  He  did  not  conceive  that  the  gentleman  could  have  authority  for  declar- 
ing that  no  future  plan  of  apportionment  could  command  a  vote  of  the  House,  and  if 
the  gentleman  was  disposed  to  affirm  that  nothing  but  his  own  proposition  could  be 
agreed  to,  it  was  possible  he  might  find  members  in  that  House  who  would  say  that 
his  proposition  should  not  be  agreed  to.  The  gentleman  from  Patrick  had  brought 
forward  this  proposition  some  time  ago;  and  it  was  due  to  him,  in  courtesy,  not  to 
suflTer  it  to  be  nailed  to  the  table. 

Mr.  Gordon  said,  that  the  assumption  of  the  gentleman  from  Bx-ooke,  was  wholly 
gratuitous,  and  unfounded  in  any  remarks  which  had  fallen  from  him. 

Mr.  Doddridge  thought  the  gentleman  had  said  so,  at  least  by  implication.  He  had 
said  that  no  plan  for  future  apportionment  could  ever  carry,  and  his  own  proposition 
pointed  to  present  apportionment  only  :  it  seemed  to  follow  that  no  proposition  was 
to  be  adopted  but  his. 

The  amendment  of  Mr.  Stuart  having  been  read  from  the  Chair, 

Mr.  Powell  said,  that  as  this  was  to  be  a  test  question,  he  should  ask  the  ayes  and 
noes  ;  and  they  were  ordered  accordingly. 

The  question  on  consideration  was  then  put,  and  decided  by  ayes  and  noes.:  Ayes 
47,  Noes  38. 

So  the  House  agreed  to  consider  it, 

Mr.  Stuart  expressed  much  discouragement  when  he  saw  so  large  a  number  of  re- 
spectable men  voting  against  any  future  apportionment.  He  considered  it  one  prin- 
cipal object  of  the  Convention  to  equalize  representation  :  the  people  would  not  be  wil- 
ling to  give  up  the  county  system,  unless  in  the  prospect  of  putting  the  power  of  the 
State  into  the  hands  of  a  majority.  But  Mr.  Gordon's  proposition  he  considered  as  a 
mere  enlargement  of  the  system  of  county  representation,  and  justly  liable,  in  princi- 
ple, to  all  the  objections  which  applied  to  the  latter.  The  question  now  was,  not  whe- 
ther women,  children,  day-labourers  and  vagabonds  were  to  be  represented  ;  but,  whe- 
ther after  the  line  had  been  drawn  and  qualified  voters  determined,  they  should  be  put 
on  a  level  with  each  other  ?  whether  they  should  have  an  equal  or  an  unequal  share 
in  the  Government  of  the  Commonwealth.'  He  greatly  preferred  his  scheme  to  that 
of  Mr,  Neale,  which  he  thought  would  operate  very  unequally  in  practice. 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


751 


Ke  professed  himself  a  friend  to  rational  reform :  and  though  he  did  not  anticipate 
the  same  bloody  result  as  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Cooke,)  in  case  of  a 
failure  of  the  new  Constitution — yet  he  apprehended  a  state  of  much  confusion,  and 
he  believed,  unless  some  principle  for  future  apportionment  of  representation  was  in- 
serted in  the  Constitution,  it  would  certainly  be  rejected  by  the  people. 

Mr.  Neale  dechned  interfering  with  the  vote  on  this  proposition,  by  advocating  his 
own  at  this  time. 

Mr.  Stuart  observed,  in  explanation,  that  it  was  not  his  purpose,  where  the  number 
of  counties  and  of  representatives  chanced  to  be  the  same,  that  one  representative 
should  be  given  to  each  county;  but  only  to  the  average  counties. 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  agreeing  to  Mr.  Stuart's  amendment  and  decided 
in  the  neo-ative  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — 5lessrs.  Anderson,  Coffman,Harrison,Williamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson, M'Coy, 
Moore,  Beirne,  Smith.  3.1iller.  Baxter,  ^Nlercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke^ 
Powell,  Griggs,  Xaylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  McMillan,  Campbell  of 
Washington, ~Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Summers,  See, 
Doddrido-e.  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Claytor.  Saunders,  Cabell  and 
Stuart— 42. 

JVoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  ^Marshall,  rvicholas,  Clopton,  Mason 
of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urqubart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan, 
Venable,  jNladison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett, 
Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Macrae,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,. 
Campbell  of  Bedford,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates, 
Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Ba3'ly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 49. 

The  question  then  occurred  on  agreeing  to  the  second  resolution  of  the  Legislative 
Committee, 

But  on  motion  of  Mr.  Gordon,  it  was  laid  for  the  present  upon  the  table. 
After  some  conversation  as  to  the  next  subject  to  be  taken  up,  it  was  at  length  agreed 
to  consider  ]Mr.  Neale's  proposition:  wliich  was  thereupon  read  from  the  Chair. 
Mr.  Neale  rose  and  said  : 

Mr.  President, — I  little  thought,  when  I  submitted  the  resolutions  in  your  hand, 
that  it  would  be  expected  from  me  to  support  them  by  an  argument ;  but  I  am  told 
that  I  owe  it  to  this  body,  and  told  this  morning  that  it  is  expected  from  me.  Surely, 
Sir,  the  propositions  are  of  a  character  so  naked,  that  discussion  is  not  necessary  to 
explain  them  in  this  enlightened  assembl3^ 

In  taking  up  the  subject,  I  feel  at  once  the  awkwardness  of  my  situation.  If  I  ad- 
vance arguments  provino;  the  scheme  will  be  beneficial  to  the  East,  I  shall  lose  sup- 
port in  the  AYest :  on  the  otlier  hand,  if  I  prove  that  benefits  are  to  accrue  to  the  West, 
1  shall  be  abandoned  by  the  East.  No  sea-tossed  mariner,  who  ever  attempted  to 
pass  a  strait  like  that  of  Scylla  and  Charybdis,  was  ever  in  greater  difficulty.  So  that 
my  propositions  must  either  break  down  among  the  mountains,  or  must  sink  in  the 
Atlantic.  In  this  view  of  the  subject,  prudence  admonishes  me  to  silence — yet  it  is 
said  that  silence  will  not  comport  with  the  demands  of  Parliamentary  decorum.  So 
the  peril  must  be  encountered. 

Mr.  President,  I  am  informed,  that  although  my  proposition  has  both  Eastern  and 
Western  friends,  yet  it  will  have  to  resist  more  difficulties  from  the  East.  Then  I 
briefly  endeavour  to  prove,  that  the  operation  of  the  rule  for  re-apportionraent  of  re- 
presentation will  be  peculiarly  beneficial  to  the  East,  and  fair  throughout  the  State. 

Members  of  the  East  have  argued,  that  the  Right  of  Suffrage  should  attach  exclu- 
sively to  the  landed  qualification — this  doctrine  was  adhered  to  as  long  as  from  adhe- 
rence they  hoped  for  success.  SulFrage,  however,  has  been  extended  to  other  classes 
as  well  as  freeholders  of  the  community  ;.  and  in  these  several  classes  of  sufiragants  is 
now  lodged  the  political  sovereign  power  of  the  Commonwealth — Consequently,  they 
are  to  elect  the  members  of  the  Legislature.  The  question  then  naturally  arises,  what 
shall  be  the  future  apportionm.ent  of  representation,  and  to  what  shall  it  apply.?  It 
appears  to  me  that  no  better  rule  can  be  adopted,  than  to  measure  representation  by 
the  whole  number  of  the  resident  freehold  voters,  whose  freeholds  shall  be  of  a  hoiia 
fide  value.  In  them  mainly  reside  and  abide  the  strength,  the  wealth,  and  the  intel- 
ligence of  the  whole  community.  In  looking  to  this  subject,  my  mind  is  struck  with 
the  fitness,  the  beauty,  the  symmetrv^  and  the  justice  of  the  rule. 

But  my  scheme  is  objected  to  by  some,  because  I  propose  to  have  the  Senate  a  per- 
manent body.  From  this  objection  permit  me  to  vindicate  it,  by  a  comparison  of  it 
with  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  (Mr.  Gordon.)  His  plan  proposes 
to  have  both  the  Senate  and  the  House  of  Delegates  fix:ed  and  permanent. 

Now,  unless  it  can  be  proved  that  a  half  is  equal  to  a  whole,  or  that  the  exercise  of 
a  vicious  principle  in  one  branch  of  the  Legislature,  is  equal  to  the  exercise  of  a  vicious 
principle  in  both  branches,  I  shall  not  beheve  that  my  scheme  is  justly  obnoxious  to 
the  objection,  so  long  as  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  shall  be  considered 


752 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


as  a  happy  hit  by  a  majority  of  this  Convention — at  least  the  objection  should  not 
come  from  any  of  the  supporters  of  that  plan. 

Mr.  President,  I  am  not  particularly  anxious  for  the  adoption  of  a  rule  for  re-appor- 
tionment of  representation,  but  for  the  hope  that  it  would  unite  in  harmony  and  peace, 
the  conflicting  materials  of  this  Convention,  and  by  consequence  to  render  the  amend- 
ed Constitution,  (provided  it  shall  be  a  good  one)  to  the  willing  acceptance  of  the 
people. 

I  believe,  Sir,  that  the  best  rule  which  could  be  fixed  upon,  ought  to  be  founded  in 
white  population  and  taxation  combined — and  were  we  to  have  another  Convention, 
I  think  I  may  safely  prophecy  that  the  people  would  so  direct  it.  But  we  have  in 
vain  attempted  to  establish  that  rule  ;.  and  in  its  absence,  I  sincerely  believe  that  my 
rule  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  associated  with  a  permanent  Senate,  approximates 
very  nearly,  if  not  equally,  to  the  excellence  and  fairness  of  that  rule  which  is  founded 
on  population  and  taxation. 

1  promised  to  prove  to  gentlemen  of  the  East,  that  by  the  operation  of  my  plan,  no 
ill  would  accrue  to  the  East.    I  will  endeavour  to  redeem  that  promise. 

Although  there  are  six  or  seven  millions  of  acres  of  land  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge 
more  than  the  East,  yet  a  single  glance  at  the  geography  of  the  Western  region  in- 
contestibly  proves,  that  there  cannot  be  more,  if  as  much  land  there,  as  there  is  in  the 
East,  calculated  for  the  profits  and  purposes  of  agriculture.  It  is  true  that  the  assessed 
lands  of  the  West  exceed  those  of  the  East  in  quantity,  according  to  the  Auditor's  ta- 
bles. But  who  does  not  know  that  a  very  great  quantity  of  that  assessed  land,  is  wholly 
unfit  for  human  use,  and  not  desirable  as  haunts  for  wild  beasts.?  But  let  us  assume 
that  there  is  an  equal  quantity  East  and  West,  fitted  for  the  habitation  and  enjoyment 
of  man,  and  this  is  very  fair  for  the  West,  can  you  then  doubt,  Mr.  President,  that 
from  the  very  face  of  the  Eastern  country,  and  the  character  of  its  soil,  it  is  capa- 
ble of,  and  will  necessarily  be  cut  up  into  smaller  freeholds  in  the  progress  of  time, 
much  greater  in  number  than  the  lands  of  the  West .? 

Again  :  The  lands  in  the  East  are  assessed  for  taxes  to  the  sum  of  ^  74,000  more 
than  those  of  the  West.  This  fact  indicates  the  conclusion,  that  the  Eastern  lands 
.are  more  valuable  :  and  consequently,  capable  of  containing  a  denser  population. 

Let  us  now  see  what  relation  the  whole  white  population  of  the  West  bears  to 
that  of  the  East.  To  1829,  the  white  population  of  the  East  is  stated  by  the  Audi- 
tor to  be  362,000,  that  of  the  West  to  be  319,000 — and  the  difference  between  East 
and  West  as  to  the  white  males  above  the  age  of  sixteen  years,  is  12,000  in  favour  of 
the  East.  Now,  Sir,  what  is  to  become  of  these  white  males Will  they  not  neces- 
sarily, from  all  the  advantages  at  hand,  soon  become  freeholders,  and  thereby  aug- 
ment the  existing  majority  of  the  East  ? 

It  is  a  fact  somewhat  curious  to  know,  (and  I  believe  contrary  to  ordinary  opinion,) 
that  the  ratio  of  freeholds  to  the  white  population  of  a  slave-holding  community  is 
much  greater,  than  to  a  community  of  white  population.  I  acknowledge  that  my  im- 
pression was,  that  freeholds  would  multiply  faster  in  a  non-slave-holding  community. 
But  the  fact  is  not  so. 

On  the  West  side  of  the  Ridge,  there  are  319,000  white  people,  and  35,887  freeholds  : 
On  the  East  side  there  are  362,000  white  persons,  and  56,846  freeholds.  If  the  ratio 
of  freeholds  were  equal,  the  "West  should  contain  about  49,000  instead  of  35,887 — so 
that  the  slave-holding  community  is  gainer  upon  the  existing  population  East  and 
West,  nearly  14,000  freeholds.  This  fact  is  important,  to  test  what  will  be  the  proba- 
ble future  operation  of  the  rule  to  re-apportion  representation. 

How  stands  the  fact,  if  the  rule  were  applied  at  this  time  to  all  the  freeholders  of  the 
Commonwealth  ?  In  a  House  of  Delegates  to  consist  of  one  hundred  and  twenty- 
seven  members,  the  West  would  be  entitled  to  forty-nine  and  a  half  members  and  the 
East  to  seventy-seven  and  a  half  members. 

It  may  be  asked,  what  would  be  the  probable  result,  if  the  rule  was  applied  to  the 
particular  class  of  freeholders  contemplated  to  be  embraced  by  it A  calculation  has 
been  made  ;  and  it  may  be  proper  to  state  the  data  upon  which  it  was  made.  A  few 
land  lists  of  counties  East  and  West  were  indifferently  taken,  and  carefully  examined  : 
upon  that  examination,  it  appeared  that  there  were  more  small  freeholds  under  the 
value  of  $  25  to  the  West,  than  in  the  East.  So,  that  upon  any  scheme  applied  now 
to  a  House  of  one  hundred  and  twenty-seven  members,  the  West  would  get  forty- 
eight  and  the  East  seventy-nine,  leaving  a  majority  of  thirty-one  members  to  the  East, 
and  by  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  there  is  a  majority  of  twenty-one 
only.  Favorable  as  my  plan  seems  to  the  East,  it  would  be  still  more  so,  if  an  accu- 
rate Census  was  taken  of  the  bona  fide  resident  freeholders,  whose  freeholds  are  of  the 
value  of  $  25  each  :  for.  Sir,  it  must  be  admitted,  that  there  are  many  more  non-resi- 
dents of  the  West,  entitled  to  land  there,  than  there  are  non-residents  of  the  East, 
owning  land  in  the  East. 

It  may  not  be  amiss  to  state,  that  the  operation  of  the  Statute  of  Descents  will  have 
the  inevitable  tendency  to  augment  the  number  of  freeholds  in  a  ratio  greater  in  that 
portion  of  the  State  where  the  population  is  greatest. 


DEBATES    OF    THE  CONVENTION. 


753 


In  apportioning  representation  upon  bona  fide  landholders,  the  hardy  yeoinanrv  of 
the  country,  the  absolute  owners  of  the  soil,  the  rule  omits  to  cover  tlie  labouring 
classes  of  the  West  and  of  the  East:  and  this  consideration  surely,  is  v*e\\  worth}-  the 
reflection  of  the  Eastern  delegation. 

It  has  been  said,  Mr.  President,  that  the  increase  of  white  population  is  such  to  the 
West,  that  in  the  course  of  some  twenty  or  thirty  years,  it  will  exceed  that  of  tlie 
East.    Let  us  examine  whether  this  conjecture  be  founded  on  facts. 

From  1790  to  1500.  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  the  average  increase  was  51^  per 
cent.:  from  ISOO  to  1510,  the  average  increase  was  .24  1-5  per  cent.;  from  1810  to 
15.20,  the  average  increase  was  19^  per  cent. — We  have  no  Census  since  1520.  But 
let  us  pursue  this  decreasing  increase  of  population  from  the  facts  presented — and  I 
will  premise  that  to  the  West,  as  in  every  other  country,  the  increase  of  population 
will  gradually  lessen  as  the  country  fills  up.  But  suppose  the  increase  for  the  last 
nine  3-ears  to  be  13  per  cent. — by  the  same  average  of  decreasing  increase,  ten  years 
from  this  period  will  make  it  7  per  cent.  ;  and  ten  years  more  will  reduce  the  increase 
of  the  West  to  what  it  now  is  in  tlie  East,  and  probably  less — for,  such  is  the  nature  of 
the  soU  and  its  surface,  that  a  much  denser  population  may  inhabit  the  Eastern  region 
than  in  that  of  the  West.  In  this  view  of  the  subject,  the  white  population  of  the  V/est 
even  in  the  gross  (and  never  v.-hen  counted  as  freeholders)  vnli  hardly  ever  exceed 
that  of  the  East.  Then,  ISIr.  President,  why  should  the  East  object  to  this  rule  for 
re-apportionment.-  We  should  refuse  to  adopt  a  rule,  and  thereby  lay  the  foundation 
of  the  call  of  another  Convention.  I  hope  we  shall  not,  Sh  :  For,  if  the  amended 
Constitution  be  a  good  one,  let  us  unite  to  render  it  as  perpetual  as  human  wisdom 
can  devise. 

But,  Mr.  President,  suppose  in  the  lapse  of  some  eighty  or  one  hundred  years,  the 
political  power  in  the.  House  of  Deleo-ates  should,  upon  my  rule,  pass  to  tlie  West — we 
shall  have  no  cause  to  complain — for,  with  the  increase  of  the  number  of  their  free- 
holds and  population,  there  will  be  a  correspondent  increase  of  the  amount  of  taxes 
paid  by  them;  and  in  the  mean  time,  the  jealous  and  censorious  passions  of  the  whole 
community,  will  be  hushed  into  harmony  and  fraternal  love.  If  it  be  true  that  this 
state  of  political  quietude  and  happiness  shall  endure  no  longer  than  some  eighty  or 
one  hundred  years  to  come,  let  us  be  satisfied  :  for,  unhappily  for  mankind,  few  Go- 
vernments of  the  world  have  had  the  good  fortune  to  endure  for  a  term  of  years  so 
long. 

Mr.  President,  it  has  been  further  objected  to  my  plan  that  frauds  will  be  practised' 
in  the  West  in  the  creation  of  the  freeholds,  owing  to  the  great  quantity  of  waste 
lands  in  that  region.  I  do  not  feel  the  weight  of  this  objection.  The  freehold  is  to 
be  owned  by  a  resident  freehold  voter,  and  its  value  is  to  be  not  less  than  twenty-five 
dollars.  The  Legislature  is  to  provide  by  law  for  ascertaining  the  number  of  such 
freeholders,  and  will  surely  guard  against  fraudulent  practices.  I  can  more  easily 
imagine  that  in  the  annual  general  elections,  much  excitement  in  favour  of  par- 
ticular candidates,  might  and  has  produced  attempts  to  create  votes  for  the  particular 
occasion.  This  rule  of  re-apportionment  is  to  apply  only  once  in  every  twenty  years ; 
and  I  cannot  believe  that  the  expense  of  writing  and  recording  of  deeds  will  be  en- 
countered with  a  view  to  the  increase  of  political  power,  at  a  time  greatly  remote ; 
when,  in  all  probability,  the  actors  in  this  fraudulent  combination  might  reasonably 
calculate,  that  before  the  fruits  of  their  iniquity  could  be  gathered,  they  themselves 
would  cease  to  exist.  Sir,  frauds  of  this  kind,  to  be  effectual  in  the  increase  of 
political  power,  must  be  very  general:  and  consequently  a  great  number  of  persons 
engaged  in  them.  Could  such  a  state  of  things  escape  public  detection  and  would 
not  that  detection  be  followed  up  bv  public  scorn  and  by  public  punishment .' 

It  is  to  my  mind  very  sinofular  "that  objections  should  come  from  the  East  to  my 
plan.  For,  Mr.  President,  suppose  after  all.  in  the  course  of  many  years  to  come, 
it  should  be  found  that  vmder-the  operation  of  the  rule  which  I  have  proposed,  the 
majority  of  the  House  of  Delegates  should  come  from  the  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge ; 
have  we  not  safety  and  a  guarantee  in  the  permanency  of  the  Senate  I  am  satisfied 
from  my  best  reflections  that  the  East,  from  the  nature  of  things,  will  continue  to  re- 
tain the  power  in  the  Lower  House,  and  from  my  scheme,  tliey  can  never  lose  it  in 
the  Senate. 

From  the  arguments  ofl'ered.I  should  think  that  my  scheme  will  be  accepted  by  the 
East,  if  the  West  will  agree  to  take  it. 

1.  Because  the  lands  East  of  the  Ridg-e  are  more  capable  of  being  divide"'  and  sub- 
divided into  small  freeholds  than  the  lands  of  the  West :  and  that  there  is  land  assessed 
in  the  East  to  the  sum  of  8  74,000  more  than  land  to  the  West,  from  which  fact  we 
may  infer  its  superior  capacity  to  contain  a  dense  population. 

2.  That  there  are  12,000  males  above  the  age  of  sixteen  yeai's,  more  than  in  the 
West,  most  of  whom  will  sooner  or  later  become  freehold  voters. 

3.  That  freeholders  multiply  faster  in  a  slave-holding  community  than  in  a  non- 
slave-holding  community  upon  the  same  amount  of  wliite  population.  The  East  has 
jnore  population  now  bv  50.000,  at  least. 

95 


754 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


4.  That  the  decreasing  increase  of  population  in  the  West  is  such,  that  in  a  short 
time,  if  it  be  not  less  than  the  increase  of  the  East,  it  will  not  be  greater. 

Mr.  Presideat,  before  I  conclude,  permit  me  to  put  this  question  to  you,  and 
through  you,  to  my  Eastern  friends  of  this  body — and  I  put  the  question  emphatically. 
Suppose,  Sir,  some  few  weeks  past  our  Western  brethren  had  offered  to  give  to  us  a 
permanent  Senate  with  a  majority  of  six  members,  provided,  we  would  give  to  them 
a  rule  of  re-apportiomnent,  such  as  I  have  proposed — think  you,  we  would  have  refu- 
sed it  ?  No,  Sir — we  should  have  thought  it  fair  and  honorable  then,  as  I  think  it  fair, 
honourable  and  just  at  this  moment. 

You  will  remember,  Mr.  President,  that  when  I  offered  my  resolutions,  there  were 
two  others  offered  at  the  same  time,  one  by  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr. 
Cooke,)  and  one  by  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun,  (Mr.  Henderson,)  on  the  subject 
of  the  Judiciary  and  Executive  Departments  of  Government.  By  my  resolution  a 
fair  rule  for  re-apportionment  was  contemplated — by  Mr.  Cooke's,  the  degradation  and 
injustice  to  the  Judiciary  were  intended  to  be  avoided,  and  by  that  of  Mr.  Plender- 
son  a  small  Council  was  to  be  preserved,  an<J  the  election  of  Governor  to  be  given 
to  the  Legislature — and  these  several  propositions  were  intended  by  the  movers  to  be 
dependent  propositions. 

Mr.  President,  if  my  resolutions  are  lost,  it  must  be  because  the  West  think  them 
unfavorable  to  their  interests,  and  the  East  consider  them  injurious  to  their  political 
power — and  if  each  apprehends  ill,  all  may  reasonably  anticipate  good. 

Mr.  Scott  then  rose  and  addressed  the  House  as  follows : 

I  had  hoped.  Sir,  that  this  agitating  question  was  settled,  so  far  as  it  can  be  settled 
by  a  vote  of  this  House,  if  it  is  again  to  be  disturbed,  I  know  not  what  we  can  con- 
sider as  settled,  until  the  final  vote  is  given,  and  the  Convention  has  adjourned. 

When  the  various  departments  of  the  Government  were  referred  to  the  select 
Committees,  this  question  stood  foremost,  and  engaged  the  attention  of  all.  When 
the  House  went  into  Committee  of  the  Whole  on  the  reports  of  the  select  Commit- 
tees, this  all-absorbing  question  was  first  taken  up,  and  debated  week  after  week,  with 
all  the  ardour  and  ability  which  the  deep  interest  which  it  involves  was  so  well  cal- 
culated to  bring  forth.  The  Convention  was  divided  into  two  almost  equal  parts,  and 
the  people  became  agitated  and  inflamed ;  when  my  friend  from  Albemarle,  to  use 
his  ov^n  words,  in  order  to  sink  the  discussion,"  laid  upon  the  table  his  plan  for  a 
present  apportionment  of  representation,  without  looking  to  the  future.  After  it  had 
been  in  possession  of  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  for  some  time,  and  several  fruit- 
less attempts  had  been  made  to  agree  upon  another  scheme  embracing  both  a  present 
and  future  apportionment,  it  was  taken  up  and  adopted  by  a  more  decided  majority, 
than  we  hoped  could  be  united  on  any  proposition,  connected  with  this  all  important 
question.  A  rule  of  future  apportionment,  presented  by  the  gentleman  from  North- 
ampton, was  engrafted  upon  it;  but  was  disagreed  to  by  the  House  by  an  almost 
unanimous  vote.  Various  other  schemes  for  future  apportionment,  were  proposed 
from  both  sides  of  the  Plouse,  and  all  of  them  rejected,  and  finally  the  plan  of  the 
gentleman  fi'om  Albemarle  v/as  agreed  to  by  a  decisive  majority  ;  and  the  Convention 
passed  to  the  consideration  of  other  subjects.  If  this  question,  therefore,  is  not  to  be 
considered  as  settled,  it  cannot  be  said  that  we  have  settled  any  thing.  I,  for  one, 
have  so  considered;  and  I  regret  that  my  friend  from  Richmond  county  should  have 
disturbed  it.  [Mr.  Neale  explained.]  I  am  not  ignorant  of  the  motives  which  led 
my  friend  to  take  this  step — although  not  stated  to  the  House  in  the  remarks  which 
he  submitted  in  support  of  his  proposition,  he  had  explained  them  to  me.  I  duly  ap- 
preciate them  ;  yet  1  regret  that  he  has  felt  it  his  duty  again  to  agitate  the  Convention 
by  bringing  up  this  subject. 

Mr.  President, — The  plan  before  us  does  not  profess  to  provide  for  a  present  appor- 
tionment. It  is  designed  to  engraft  it  on  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle.  It 
must,  therefore,  be  considered  in  connection  with  that  plan.  It  is  objected  to  that 
plan  by  gentlemen  from  the  West  and  from  the  East  also ;  and  amongst  the  latter  is 
my  friend  vvlio  sits  near  me,  (Mr.  Leigh.)  that  it  is  defective  in  not  providing  a  rule 
for  the  future  apportionment  of  Representation  ;  that  this  defect  will  generate  discon- 
tent amongst  the  people,  and  so  far  from  sinking  the  question  of  the  basis  of  Repre- 
sentation, it  will  keep  it  alive  ;  that  hostilities  will  immediately  re-commence,  and 
will  result  in  a  new  Convention,  or  a  separation  of  the  State.  I  ask  the  gentlemen 
from  the  East,  in  what  part  of  the  State  is  it  that  they  expect  these  discontents  to 
arise  From  what  quarter  is  this  war  to  be  v/aged  ?  They  answer,  from  the  West. 
I  will  ask  them  if  they  would  be  willing  to  adopt  our  own  favourite  basis  of  Repre- 
sentation, the  Federal  number,  or  population  and  taxation,  as  a  rule  of  future  appor- 
tionment, if  such  a  rule  would  not  be  more  objectionable  to  our  Western  biethren 
than  no  rule  whatever,  and  by  consequence  produce  greater  discontent,  and  have  a 
stronger  tendency  to  bring  about  another  Convention,  than  the  plan  of  the  gentleman 
from  Albemarle.  I  would  ask  gentlemen  from  tlie  West,  if  they  could  succeed  in 
adopting  their  favourite,  the  white  basis,  if  it  would  produce  no  discontent  in  the  East.'' 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


755 


If  it  is  expected,  that  we  of  the  East  would  not  make  war  on  a  Constitution,  contain- 
ing such  an  obnoxious  principle — one  which  we  think  is  opposed  to  the  best  settled 
principles  of  Representative  Government,  and  subversive  of  our  dearest  interests  ? 
Sir,  we  should  be  more  or  less  than  men.  if  we  did  not.  There  is  yet  a  majority  of 
white  population  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge.  We  should  for  a  time  have  the  command 
of  both  Houses  of  the  Legislature  on  any  basis.  We  could  wield  that  povrerful  en- 
gine to  effect  our  purposes — we  could  use  it  as  the  legitimate  means  of  securing  our 
safety,  by  expelling  the  odious  principle  from  the  Constitution ;  and  in  my  judgment 
we  should  act  unwisely  if  we  did  not  do  it.  Sir,  the  difference  between  the  East  and 
West  would  be  this — the  West  could  do  nothing  without  a  revolutionary  movement 
of  the  people,  whilst  we  of  the  East  could  effect  our  pm-poses,  by  the  very  means 
which  organized  this  Convention. 

These  reflections  have  brought  my  mind  to  the  conclusion,  that  in  the  present  ex- 
cited state  of  this  House,  and  of  the  people,  it  is  better  to  provide  no  rule  of  future 
apportionment,  unless,  indeed,  we  could  hit  upon  one  which  would  unite  a  large  ma- 
jority of  the  House  and  tranquillize  the  public  mind.  I  confess,  I  see  no  prospect  of 
such  a  result.  Let  us  examine  the  operation  of  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Al- 
bemarle, upon  the  different  divisions  of  the  State,  and  see  whether  it  is  likely  to  pro- 
duce the  effects  which  are  apprehended. 

The  causes  which  led  to  this  Convention  v.-ere  various.  The  unequal  representa- 
tion in  the  Legislature,  was  one  of  them.  Great  as  that  inequality  is,  it  would  not 
of  itself  have  been  sufncient  to  overcome  the  opposition  to  the  call  of  a  Convention." 
A  desire  to  extend  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  complaints  against  the  Judiciary,  whether 
well  or  ill-founded ;.  but  their  aid  and  their  united  force  was  barely  sufficient  to  over- 
come the  repugnance  of  the  people  of  Virginia,  to  a  change  of  their  fundamental  law. 
On  the  subject  of  Suffrage  and  the  Judiciary,  we  have  gone  far  enough  to  satisfy  the 
most  ardent  friends  of  reform.  And  the  apportionment  of  representation  proposed 
by  the  plan  under  review,  does  substantial  justice  to  every  section  of  the  State. 

The  complaints  of  unequal  representation  came  from  the  Valley,  and  that  part  of 
the  Middle  country  which  borders  on  the  Blue  B,idge,  comprising  the  counties  which 
touch  the  mountain  and  the  counties  of  Henry,  Pittsylvania  and  Campbell.  The  re- 
maining counties  composing  the  Middle  section  have  little  cause  of  complaint  on  this 
score,  and  were  generally  opposed  to  a  Convention.  Let  us  then  compare  the  situa- 
tion of  the  Valley  and  3iiddle  country  and  the  counties  just  mentioned  in  particular 
under  the  existing  Constitution,  with  their  situation  under  the  proposed  plan.  The 
representation  of  the  Valley  in  the  present  House  of  Delegates,  is  about  one-eighth 
of  the  whole  number ;  by  the  proposed  plan,  it  will  be  increased  to  about  one-fifth. 
That  of  the  whole  Middle  country  is  about  one-fourth ;  it  will  be  increased  to  one- 
third.  The  representation  of  the  fourteen  counties  immediately  below  the  Ridge,  is 
about  one-eighth  ;.  it  will  be  increased  to  about  one-sixth.  These  counties,  by  uniting 
with  the  West,  will  give  a  majority  against  the  East  of  twenty-three.  By  uniting 
with  the  East,  they  will  give  a  majority  of  twenty-one  against  the  "^Vest.  In  the  pre- 
sent House  of  Delegates,  the  trans- Alleghany  country  by  uniting  with  that  below  the 
head  of  tide-water,  will  give  a  majority  of  forty-two  against  the  Valley  and  jNIiddle 
countr}'  united.  L^pon  the  proposed  plan,  the  "Valley  alid  IMiddle  country  will  have 
a  majority  of  one.  We  may,  therefore,  well  hope  that  this  great  accession  of  strength 
to  that  portion  of  the  State  which  extends  from  the  head  of  tide-water  to  the  Alle- 
ghany mountains,  will,  when  the  excitement  which  the  discussions  in  this  House 
have  produced,  shall  have  subsided,  when  the  salutary  effects  of  this  change  on  the 
local  interests  of  that  region  shall  be  felt,  cause  the  people  who  inhabit  it  to  be  con- 
tent. The  people  of  the  fourteen  counties  forming  the  upper  division  of  the  Middle 
country,  must  be  satisfied.  In  their  hands  will  be  placed  the  balance  of  power  be- 
tween the  East  and  the  West.  It  was  by  the  union  of  these  counties  with  the  West, 
that  a  majority  was  obtained  for  the  call  of  a  Convention.  Ample  justice  is  done  to 
the  country  West  of  the  Alleghany.  If  complaints  are  heard  from  that  quarter,  tliey 
will  be  without  a  cause.  Unaided  by  the  Valley  and  IMiddle  country,  they  never  can 
disturb  the  repose  of  the  State. 

Neither  has  the  extreme  East  any  cause  of  complaint,  or  just  ground  of  apprehen- 
sion. Their  own  favourite  basis  of  Representation  would  place  the  balance  of  power 
in  the  same  hands.  The  numbers  which  it  would  assign  to  the  East  and  West  re- 
spectively, would  indeed  be  somewhat  different.  But  Ihe  counties  at  the  Eastern 
base  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  would  still  hold  the  balance  between  East  and  West.  In 
their  hands  it  may  be  safely  placed.  They  pay  as  large  a  proportion  of  taxes,  and 
hold  as  large  a  proportion  of  slaves,  as  any  other  parts  of  the  State.  When  they  tax 
their  neighbours,  they  tax  themselves  also.  They  have  a  deep  interest  in  all  the  laws 
concerning  slaves.  On  the  subject  of  Internal  Improvement,  they  have  an  interest 
common  to  the  East  and  to  the  West.  The  amount  of  their  contributions  to  the  public 
pmrse,  will  prevent  them  from  embarking  in  what  we  consider  the  wild  and  extrava- 
gant schemes  of  the  West.    Their  distance  from  market,  and  the  value  of  their  pro- 


756 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


ducts,  make  it  necessary  for  them  to  construct  roads,  and  improve  the  navigation  of 
their  streams.  Single-handed,  they  can  do  nothing.  They  can  control  the  East, 
only  by  uniting  with  the  West.  They  will,  therefore,  necessarily  be  led  to  unite  with 
the  West  in  a  moderate  system  of  improvement,  alike  beneficial  to  every  part  of  the 
State. 

Sir,  you  have  the  best,  the  only  safe  guaranty  against  the  abuse  of  the  power  con- 
fided to  them — the  guaranty  of  their  interest.  I  have  thought  it  proper  to  lay  before 
the  Convention  what  I  consider  the  advantages  of  the  scheme  of  the  gentleman  from 
Albemarle,  before  I  examine  that  of  my  friend  from  Richmond  county,  which  is  in- 
tended as  an  appendage  to  it.  Permit  me  now.  Sir,  to  call  the  attention  of  the  Con- 
vention to  that  scheme.  His  first  resolution  proposes,  that  out  of  thirty-two  Senators, 
thirteen  shall  be  assigned  to  the  country  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  and  nineteen  East; 
that  this  apportionment  shall  be  permanent.  All  the  objections  urged  against  the 
scheme  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  apply  to  this  feature  of  that  now  under 
examination.  The  rule  of  future  apportionment,  which  is  proposed  for  the  House 
of  Delegates,  will  either  increase  the  preponderance  of  the  East  in  that  House,  leave 
things  as  they  are,  or  transfer  the  preponderance  in  that  House  to  the  West.  If  it 
operates  no  material  change,  it  will  render  the  plan  to  which  it  is  to  be  appended,  in 
no  respect  better.  If  it  increases  the  preponderance  of  the  East,  it  will  increase  the 
discontent  of  the  West.  If  it  transfers  the  preponderance  to  the  West,  it  will  intro- 
duce the  elements  of  discord  into  the  Halls  of  Legislation,  and  prove  fatal  to  the  re- 
pose of  the  State,  and  ultimately  wrest  from  the  East  the  protection  which  is  proposed 
to  be  given  by  the  permanent  Senate. 

Upon  what  is  this  proposed  rule  of  future  apportionment  founded  ?  It  is  not  founded 
on  population,  nor  wealth,  nor  taxation.  It  is  said  to  be  based  upon  land.  Will  its 
operation  be  effected  by  the  quantity  of  land  in  the  several  counties  ?  No.  On  the 
value  ?  No.  By  the  taxes  paid  on  land  No.  What  then?  Why,  it  will  depend 
on  the  number  of  resident  freeholders  owning  freeholds  worth  twenty-five  dollars. 
In  other  words,  the  number  of  Representatives  v/hich  a  county  will  be  entitled  to, 
will  depend  on  the  number  of  divisions  of  the  value  of  twenty-five  dollars  and  up- 
wards into  which  accident  may  have  cut  up  its  territory,  and  the  tenure  by  which 
those  divisions  may  happen  to  be  held.  They  will  bear  no  proportion  to  its  popula- 
tion, black  or  white — none  to  the  extent  or  value  of  its  territory,  nor  to  the  taxes  paid 
by  its  inhabitants.  It  will  depend  on  circumstances  purely  adventitious.  Sir,  such 
a  scheme  is  at  war  with  all  former  notions  of  Representative  Government,  and  if  ap- 
plied in  practice,  be  the  most  variable  in  its  results  of  any  that  has  ever  yet  been 
dreamed  of.  In  support  of  these  remarks,  let  me  ask  the  attention  to  a  survey  of  a 
few  of  the  counties  in  the  different  sections  of  the  State.  If  we  compare  Western 
counties  with  the  Valley  counties,  and  with  each  other.  Eastern  counties  with  Wes- 
tern counties,  and  with  each  other,  we  shall  find  the  results  equally  variable  and  un- 
satisfactory. We  are  furnished  by  the  Auditor  with  a  statement,  shewing  the  number 
of  persons  charged  with  tax  on  lands,  in  parcels  not  less  than  twenty-five  acres,  in 
the  several  counties,  and  in  lots  and  parts  of  lots,  in  the  several  cities  and  towns. 
Their  value  is  not  stated,  but  I  learn  from  a  gentleman  in  my  eye,  (Mr.  Joynes,)  that 
he  has  examined  the  commissioners'  books,  and  the  number  which  falls  short  of  the 
value  of  twenty-five  dollars,  is  so  inconsiderable,  as  not  to  be  worth  notice.  Those 
of  less  than  twenty-five  acres,  and  of  the  value  of  twenty  dollars,  will  probably  not 
materially  vary  the  result.  From  that  document  it  appears,  that  the  county  of  Ka- 
nawha, with  a  white  population  of  7,593,  and  1,527  slaves,  and  paying  a  tax  of 
$  1,735,  has  but  615  freeholders ;  whilst  the  county  of  Cabell,  with  only  4,772  whites, 
485  slaves,  and  paying  a  tax  of  $  934,  has  804  freeholders.  The  county  of  Randolph, 
with  4,372  whites,  234  slaves,  and  paynig  a  tax  of  $614,  has  978  freeholders;  while 
Ohio,  with  15,588  whites,  274  slaves,  and  paying  $  3,438,  has  1,026  freeholders.  The 
county  of  Jefferson,  with  10,327  whites,  4,248  slaves,  and  paying  ^5,778,  has  856 
freeholders;  whilst  Randolph,  with  less  tlaan  half  the  white  population,  about  a  twen- 
tieth part  of  the  slaves,  paying  one-ninth  of  the  taxes  of  Jefferson,  has  976  free- 
holders. Morgan,  with  less  than  one-fourth  as  many  whites,  one-thirtieth  as  many 
slaves,  and  paying  one-tenth  as  much  tax  as  Jefferson,  has  nearly  half  as  many  free- 
holders. The  county  of  Campbell,  including  the  town  of  Lynchburg,  has  10,362 
whites,  9,751  slaves,  pays  $9,771  in  taxes,  and  has  about  1,400  freeholders.  Wood, 
with  half  the  white  population,  one-fifteenth  of  the  slaves,  and  paying  one-tenth  of 
the  taxes  of  Campbell,  has  1,054  freeholders. 

The  county  of  Fauquier,  with  13,226  whites,  11,301  slaves,  and  paying  $  8,317, 
has  1,123  freeholders.  The  neighbouring  county  of  Culpeper,  with  11,166  whites, 
9,226  slaves,  and  paying  .f  6,585,  has  1,433  freeholders.  And  the  county  of  Patrick, 
with  about  one-third  as  many  whites,  one-eighth  as  many  slaves,  and  paying  one- 
ninth  as  much  tax  as  Fauquier,  has  944  freeholders.  Jefferson,  with  10,357  whites, 
4,248  slaves,  and  paying  $  5,776,  has  856  freeholders.  Princess  Anne,  with  5,382 
whites,  3,944  slaves,  and  paying  $  2,754,  has  1,047  freeholders.    It  is  unnecessary  to 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION 


757 


pursue  the  comparison  farther.  Before  quitting  the  subject,  however.  I  beg  leave  to 
call  the  attention  of  the  House  to  the  pecuhar  condition  of  the  country  West  of  the 
Alleghanv.  and  the  materials  which  were  afloat  for  the  manufacture  of  fteeholds, 
real  and  fictitious. 

Mr.  President. — It  is  not  for  the  purpc-se  of  institutiug  any  invidious  comparison 
between  the  East  and  the  West,  that  I  invite  this  esamination.  I  judge  of  men  on 
the  same  principles,  whether  they  be  planted  on  the  plains  of  the  East,  or  amidst  the 
mountains  of  the  West.  It  is  our  duty  to  guard  against  the  evil  tendencies  of  our 
nature. 

We  are  taught  by  the  lessons  of  Divine  Wisdom,  to  pray  that  we  be  not  led  into 
temptation. 

The  county  of  Kanawha  contains,  accordicg  to  Eoye"s  Map.  1.337.600  acres.  There 
are  assessed  for  the  payment  of  taxes  in  that  ccnanty,  2.990.566  acres  of  land.  The 
countv  of  Lee.  by  the  same  Map.  contains  327.650  acres.  There  are  assessed  for  the 
payment  of  taxes  in  that  county.  1,510.5.57  acres.  E.andolph  contains  by  the  Map, 
1,319,040  acres.  1,639,331  acres  are  entered  on  the  commissioners'  books.  B-usseU 
contains  576,810  acres.  1,265,275  acres  are  assessed.  The  county  of  Scott  contains 
399,360  acres.  609,644  axe  assessed.  Tyler  contains  547,200  acres.  935.517  acres 
are  entered  on  the  books  of  the  assessors.  The  lands  in  this  region,  to  use  a  familiar 
phrase,  are  shingled  with  patents.  Tlie  quantity  of  land  in  these  six  coTinties  alone, 
according  to  the  3Iap,  is  5,207.650  acres.  The  quantity  on  the  commissioners'  books, 
is  8,^1,456,  mEiking  an  excess  of  3,053. :^06  acres  of  land  patented  and  classed,  over 
and  above  actual  acres  of  the  counties.  We  have  been  told,  both  in  and  out  of  this 
Honse,  that  for  the  mere  purpose  of  turning  a  county  election,  freeholds  have  been 
manufactured  by  the  hundred  out  of  the  wild  lands  of  this  mountain  region.  The 
pages  of  your  statute  book  shew  us.  that  it  has  been  deemed  necessary  to  enact  laws 
to  prevent  frauds  of  this  character  in  all  parts  of  the  State.  If  such  frauds  are  com- 
mitted for  tlie  trivial  purpose  of  electing  a  member  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  what 
mav  we  not  expect  when  they  are  to  decide  the  contest  for  power  between  the  East 
and  West  .- 

3tlr.  President. — The  best  rejection  which  1  have  been  able  to  bestow  on  this  sub- 
ject, has  confirmed  me  in  the  opinion,  that  in  the  existing  state  of  things,  it  is  best  to 
adopt  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  and  leave  the  future  to  take  care  of 
itself.  I  consider  it  a  happy  feature  in  that  plan,  that  it  does  not  look  to  the  future. 
I  feel  well  assured,  that  any  attempt  to  amend  it  with  that  view,  can  onlv  serve  to 
divide  and  distract  us.  'So  body  of  men  can  ever  be  in  a  worse  temper  to  perform 
that  important  task,  than  we  are.  The  people  cannot  well  be  in  a  more  infiaraed 
state.  I  trust  and  believe,  that  after  those  heats  have  had  time  to  subside,  the  people 
will  be  satisfied.  The  knowledge,  that  the  present  arrangement  is  unchangeable,  ex- 
cept by  a  revolutionary  movement  of  the  people,  will  go  far  to  preserve  us  in  quiet. 
If  the  House  shall  diner  with  me  in  opinion  on  this  point,  and  determine  to  adopt 
some  rule  for  the  future,  I  think  it  perfectly  clear,  that  the  plan  of  my  fi-iend  from 
E.ichmond  coxmty,  should  not  furnish  that  rule. 

Mr.  Cooke  insisted  that  most  of  the  objections  of  3Ir.  Scott  were  founded  on  a  Eiis- 
apprehension  of  the  meaning  of  the  proposition  which  contemplated  not  all.  fi-ee- 
holders,  male,  female,  minors.  &c..  but  only  such  freeholders  as  were  entitled  to  vote  : 
and  he  sugge-sted  to  Mr.  2\eaie  a  modification  of  his  amendment,  so  as  to  avoid  am- 
biguity on  this  subject. 

Mr.  Xeale  accepted  the  modification. 

Mr.  Scott  insisted  that  all  the  objections  he  had  urged,  apphed  still  and. even  with 
additional  force. 

After  some  farther  remarks  by  way  of  explanation  from  Mr.  JNTeale, 

^Ir.  M'Coy  declaring  himself  fi-iendly  to  the  general  principles  of  the  proposition, 
wished  to  see  it  modined  and  extended  to  the  Senate.  He  accordingly  moved  to 
amend  it  so  as  to  read  : 

■•  Resolved.  That  the  rule  to  re-apportion  representation  in  the  Senate  and  House  of 
Delegates  shall  be  upon  the  resident  freeholders  of  the  Commonwealth." 

Mr.  Doddridge  said  he  had  reason  to  beheve  that  in  this  shape  tiie  proposition 
would  be  acceptable  to  some  gentlemen  from  the  EcLstem  part  of  the  Slate,  provided 
it  was  so  modified  as  to  require  not  constructive  but  actual  possession  of  the  freehold. 

The  question  then  being  about  to  be  put  on  3Ir.  M' Coy's  amendment  to  the  amend- 
ment, 

When  ISIr.  Marshall  rose,  and  enquired  of  the  Chair,  whether  it  would  not  be  in 
order  to  move  to  lay  the  resolution  and  amendment  on  the  table.' 
Being  answered  in  the  affirmative  by  the  Chair. 

He  said  he  shoiild  make  that  motion.  3Ir.  M.  observed,  that  he  should  be  0-reatly 
reheved,  if  he  thought  with  the  gentleman  fi-om  Fauquier,  that  the  vexed  question  of 
representation,  had  been  settled  to  the  extent  that  gentleman  seemed  to  suppose,  and 
that  the  plan  which  went  no  farther  than  a  present  apportionment,  had  received  the 


758 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION, 


support  of  so  decided  a  majority,  and  as  he  believed  would  continue  to  receive  it.  It 
would  remove  much  of  the  difficulty  which  attached  to  the  general  subject,  and  would 
seem  to  convey  the  assurance,  that  the  body  would  be  able  yet  to  agree  upon  some- 
thing. He  did  not,  at  this  time,  feel  as  if  this  had  been  so  far  settled.  The  vote  in 
favour  of  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle — (and  to  which  he  presumed  the 
gentleman  from  Fauquier  alluded) — had  been  given,  while  another  proposition,  pro- 
viding for  future  apportionment,  was  still  before  the  House.  The  gentleman  seemed 
to  take  that  vote  as  an  expression  of  the  opinion  of  a  very  decided  majority,  that 
there  should  be  no  future  apportionment  provided  for :  but  he  did  not  so  consider  it. 
And  when  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  (Mr.  Upshur,)  was 
afterwards  voted  out,  he  considered  that,  not  as  a  vote,  declaring  that  the  Convention 
would  lay  down  no  plan  for  future  apportionment,  but  only  as  rejecting  that  particu- 
lar form  of  it.  No  vote  whatever,  as  he  understood,  had  yet  been  given,  directly  on 
that  point;  nor  had  the  plan,  proposed  by  tlie  Legislative  Committee  itself,  yet  been 
rejected  by  the  Convention. 

The  question,  in  relation  to  a  future  apportionment  of  representation,  was,  there- 
fore, yet  undetermined.  And  he  could  not  say,  that  any  proposition,  containing  a 
proposal  on  that  subject,  would  certainly  be  rejected  by  the  House, 

While  that  question  remained  open,  he  felt  great  difficulty  in  saying  how  the 
House  might  vote  on  the  present  proposition,  should  some  plan  for  future  apportion- 
ment be  finally  agreed  upon.  Should  such  plan  be  adopted,  it  must  of  course  be 
looked  to  in  all  other  measures  on  the  general  subject ;  but  if  it  was  to  be  taken  as 
certain,  that  no  plan  for  the  future  was  to  be  admitted,  then  the  House  could  act  upon 
that  knowledge.  He  had  no  such  knowledge,  and  could  not  act  upon  it.  He  did 
not  know  but  he  might  prefer  the  present  proposition  to  any  which  had  been  offered, 
if  a  plan  was  to  be  agreed  upon  respecting  the  future :  but  if  none  was  to  be  agreed 
to,  then  he  might  vote  against  this  as  a  present  arrangement.  In  the  one  case  he  had 
to  compare  one  plan  for  the  future,  with  another  plan  for  the  future,  and  to  choose 
between  them:  but  in  the  other  case,  he  had  to  choose  between  a  proposition  for  fu- 
ture apportionment,  and  rising  without  doing  any  thing.  He  should  act  very  differ- 
iently  in  the  one  case  from  what  he  should  in  the  other.  It  was  impossible  to  look 
without  extreme  reluctance,  and  extreme  mortification  and  apprehension  to  the  rising 
•of  the  Convention  without  having  been  able  to  effect  any  thing.  It  behoves  them 
all  to  consider  the  situation  in  which  they  were  placed.  The  eyes  of  the  world,  (that 
<was,  of  so  nmch  of  the  world  as  cared  for  matters  of  this  kind,)  were  turned  in  a 
•considerable  degree  toward  that  Convention.  The  question  whether  men  were  capa- 
ble of  framing  a  form  of  Government  for  themselves  in  some  measure  depended  for 
its  solution  upon  the  decisions  of  that  body  :  certainly  the  general  opinion  on  that 
question  must  be  affected  by  them.  But  were  the  eyes  of  the  Union  alone  fixed  upon 
them,  it  was  a  serious  subject  of  reflection.  Those  eyes  looked  at  them  with  great 
•solicitude.  The  eyes  of  Virginia  with  an  anxiety  still  greater,  as  was  manifest  from 
her. having  placed  in  this  body  men  in  whom  she  had  long  reposed  her  utmost  confi- 
dence ;  and  which  must  be  the  result,  should  such  a  body  rise  and  do  nothing.  It 
<;ould  not  be  because  there  was  nothing  to  do.  There  are  none  who  pretended  to  say 
that — all  admitted  that  great  changes,  or  at  least  considerable  changes  might  be  made 
in  the  Constitution  for  the  better.  All  seemed  to  think  there  was  much  to  do.  If 
they  rose,  therefore,  having  done  nothing,  it  would  be  manifest  and  undeniable  that 
it  was  because  they  were  unable  to  agree  on  any  thing.  How  humiliating  !  He  re- 
peated, therefore,  that  if  the  question  were  put  to  him,  "  Shall  the  Convention  rise 
without  adopting  any  thing,  or  shall  it  adopt  any  plan  of  future  apportionment  V  he 
should  be  very  differently  situated  from  what  he  would  be  if  asked  "  whether  this 
plan  or  that  plan  of  future  apportionment  were  to  be  preferred  V 

Mr.  Randolph  said,  he  had  nothing  to  do  with  what  disposition  the  House  might 
make  of  the  question;  but  he  rose  as  one  individual,  the  humblest  member  of  the 
body,  solemnly  to  deny  that  he  ever  had  admitted,  or  ever  could  admit  that  the  Gov- 
ernment of  Virginia  as  at  present  existing,  required  great  changes.  He  admitted 
that  it  might  need  some  very  small" cYmnges — and  had  so  declared  more  than  once. 
He  had  now  risen  to  take  himself  out  of  the  general  and  sweeping  assertion  of  the 
gentleman  who  had  just  taken  his  seat.  He  had  never,  at  any  time,  made  the  ad- 
mission which  the  gentleman  had  ascribed  to  all  the  members  of  the  body. 

Mr.  Marshall  said  he  must  have  misunderstood  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte — and 
he  certainly  had  misunderstood  him,  as  to  the  meaning  of  the  terms  great  and  small. 
He  should  not  have  ventured  to  include  that  gentleman  in  any  general  declaration, 
unless  he  had  understood  him  as  so  expressing  himself.  The  gentleman  had  said  he 
was  content  to  strike  off  one-half  the  number  of  the  Legislature  :  he  had  also  said 
that  he  was  content  to  make  changes,  which  he  had  not  defined  in  the  Judicial  De- 
partment. Now,  said  Mr.  M.,  I  confess  that  when  I  said  there  was  no  gentleman 
who  did  not  admit  that  great,  or  at  least  considerable  changes  ought  to  be  made  in 
the  Constitution,  I  did  understand  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte,  as  having  proposed 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


759 


very  considerable  changes.  If  he  did  not  so  understand  them,  then  I  attached  to  the 
changes  an  importance  which  he  did  not.  I  have  no  doubt  there  is  no  member  of 
the  body  unwilHng  to  make  what  I  consider  very  considerable  changes  in  the  Con- 
stitution. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  he  rose  to  express  his  concurrence  with  the  gentleman  from  Rich- 
mond, in  the  views  he  had  expressed,  and  to  confirm  them,  if  indeed  they  needed 
any  confirmation,  by  the  statement  of  two  facts,  one  of  which  had  occurred  on  that 
day,  the  other  on  the  Saturday  week  previous.  The  vote  had  been  given  that  day  on 
the  question,  whether  they  should  endeavour  to  fix  upon  some  future  arrangement  as 
to  the  basis  of  P»,epresentation,  and  which  had  been  expressly  taken  as  a  test  question^ 
And  on  Saturday  week  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  (Mr.  Johnson,)  had  declared 
that  while  he  should  vote  in  favour  of  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Albe- 
marle as  a  present  arrangement,  he  was  not  to  be  considered  as  being  precluded  from 
voting  afterward  in  favour  of  a  plan  for  future  apportionment.  As  well  as  he  recol- 
lected, the  gentleman  over  the  way,  (Mr.  Stuart,)  had  voted  with  the  gentleman  from 
Augusta.  Mr.  M.  said,  he  could  not  regard  the  question  of  the  basis  as  settled  :  if  it 
was  settled,  it  had  been  settled  on  no  principle  at  all ;  or  if  any,  it  was  on  the  white 
population  of  1820 :  could  any  one  believe  that  after  the  lapse  of  nine  years  the  same 
basis  existed  at  this  day 

Mr.  Randolph  said,  that  nothing  but  the  high  respectability  of  the  gentleman  from 
Richmond,  and  the  great  weight  justly  attached  both  there  and  elsewhere  to  whatever 
he  might  say,  could  have  induced  him  to  have  risen,  to  have  taken  himself  out  of  the 
general  and  sweeping  remark,  that  gentleman  had  made.  He  wished  to  stand  rectus 
in  Curia.  Whether  his  having  been  willing  to  reduce  the  number  of  the  House  of 
Delegates  to  one-half  of  what  it  now  stood  at,  was  consenting  to  a  great  alteration  in 
the  Constitution  or  not,  it  certainly  involved  no  change  in  the  princijjles  of  the  Con- 
stitution. For,  that  gentleman  was  too  good  a  reasoner,  and  too  good  a  mathematician 
not  to  know  that  if  from  equals,  equals  be  taken,  the  results  will  still  be  equal..  So  as; 
to  reducing  the  Executive  Council  to  one  half  its  present  number,  it  still  left  that 
body  in  its  full  vigour,  and  bearing  the  same  relation  to  the  Governor  and  holding- 
the  same  place  in  the  Government  of  the  State,  as  it  now  did. 

There  was,  however,  another  point  in  respect  to  which  he  had  been  and  still  was 
willing  to  change  the  jninciple  of  the  Constitution — he  meant  that  principle  of  it, 
which  related  to  the  tenure  of  the  Judge's  office.  As  God  shall  judge  me,  said  Mr» 
R.,  I  do  believe  that  if  the  pillars  of  the  Constitution  are  to  give  way  and  the  whole 
edifice  to  come  down,  it  is  by  the  Sampsons  of  the  Judiciary  :  Sampsons  omnipotent 
for  mischief,  but  impotent  as  to  good.  I  see  with  pain  that  the  clause  proposed  to  be 
stricken  out,  is  still  retained.  The  complaint  of  the  people  is,  that  the  Judges  are  all 
willing  to  receive  their  salaries,  but  not  to  perform  their  duties — and  that  the  hire  is 
as  worthy  of  the  labourer  as  the  labourer  is  worthy  of  his  hire.  It  is  in  this  point 
only,  that  I  am  willing  to  change  the  principle  of  the  Constitution.  I  was  as  muck 
wedded,  shall  I  say  ?  What  shall  I  say As  much  higotted  to  the  independence  of  the 
Judiciary  as  man  ever  was — but  the  Judges  themselves  have  forced  open  my  eyes — 
and  while  I  hold  him  to  be  a  bigot  in  politics,  who,  after  an  evil  has  been  shewn  to 
exist,  and  to  be  a  great  evil,  and  the  remedy  for  it  has  been  proved  to  be  effectual, 
will  still  refuse  to  apply  the  remedy,  so  he  is  the  wildest  and  most  reckless  of  inno- 
vators who  acts  on  the  converse  of  the  principle,  and  adopts  the  proposition  I  ob- 
ject to. 

Mr.  Giles  rose  to  explain  to  the  worthy  gentleman  from  Richmond  the  principles- 
he  had  contended  for  himself.  He  was  as  content  to  avoid  innovations  as  any  mem- 
ber of  the  Convention.  But  he  had  said  he  was  w^illing  to  go  into  them  to  a  certain 
extent:  and  the  question,  whether  that  was  a  small  or  a  great  extent,  must  depend  ort 
the  ideas  gentlemen  might  entertain  as  to  the  importance  of  the  changes  he  was  willing 
to  make. 

He  had  been  willing  to  commence  with  a  modification,  but  not  with  the  destruction 
of  the  Executive  Council.  He  was  prepared  to  lessen  the  number  of  that  body.  He 
had  also  been  willing  to  reduce  the  number  of  the  members  of  the  Assembly — though 
on  that  point  he  vv^as  not  so  solicitous  as  some.  He  also  desired  to  see  some  changes  in 
the  Judicial  Department.  But  what  he  had  risen  to  remark  was,  that  he  htid  jjledged 
himself  to  go  farther  than  this,  if  thereby  he  could  produce  any  approach  to  unanimity. 

He  had  very  early  given  this  deliberate  and  well  considered  intimation.  But  he 
hoped  and  trusted  that  he  should  not  be  urged  to  go  to  lengths  which  were  improper. 
Let  us  not,  said  Mr.  G.  tear  down  the  noble  fabric,  lest,  after  all,  we  should  go  home 
and  do  nothing  more.  He  was  alarmed  at  that  idea :  let  them  be  cautious  lest  they 
pushed  their  reforms  to  the  destruction  of  the  fundamental  merits  of  the  Constitution. 
Yet,  as  he  had  once  before  said,  there  was  a  peculiar  and  to  him  a  very  great  consola- 
tion in  the  reflection,  that  if  they  should  have  done  nothing,  they  would  thereby 
have  done  a  great  deal :  they  would  have  refused  to  pull  down  that  which  had  ap- 
peared excellent  to  better  judges  than  they  seemed  to  be. 


760 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


He  was  not  so  much  alarmed  at  the  idea  of  doing  nothing  as  some  gentlemen  were  : 
and  they  ought  not  to  let  that  fear  carry  them  too  far.  He  concluded  by  declaring 
that  he  felt  a  strong  and  an  increasing  spirit  of  conciliation  ;  which  he  hoped  would 
be  reciprocated  by  others.  He  should  vote  to  lay  the  resolution  and  amendment  on 
the  table  for  farther  consideration. 

iVIr.  Coalter  said,  that  he  was  one  of  that  Judiciary  against  whom  it  had  been  said 
that  they  were  willing  to  receive  their  salaries,  but  not  to  labour  for  them.  He  rose 
to  state  that  he  was  one  of  the  men  of  tJiat  Judiciary  against  whom  that  charge  could 
not  be  made  good. 

[Mr.  Randolph  here  interposed  and  said,  he  believed  there  was  a  majority  of  them 
in  that  situation.] 

Mr.  Coalter  resumed.  The  charge  ought  to  rest  rather  on  the  Legislature  than  on 
the  Judiciary.  He  had  long  wished  and  sought  to  be  brought  before  the  Legislative 
body  with  his  papers.  He  had  been  a  Judge  of  the  Court  of  Appeals  now  for  ten 
years.  During  a  great  part  of  that  time  he  had  risen  regularly  at  three  o'clock  in  the 
morning  and  worked  till  night:  and  during  the  residue  he  had  worked  from  Court 
hours  till  three  in  the  morning,  (as  long  as  he  could  see  any  light  in  the  chambers  of 
the  representatives,  who  were  no  doubt  busy  in  their  rooms  on  the  public  concerns.) 
He  had  worked  every  Sunday  :  the  hardest  on  that  day  :  and  he  had  picked  out  the 
causes  of  the  widow  and  the  orphan,  because  he  considered  that  as  God's  work.  The 
whole  Legislature,  with  a  committee  as  an  overseer,  never  should  have  driven  him 
to  that :  but  he  saw  that  ruin  was  likely  to  ensue  from  bad  legislation,  and  he  had  vo- 
lunteered to  do  what  no  man  should  have  compelled  him  to  attempt.  The  Legisla- 
ture sent  to  the  Court  of  Appeals  matters  on  which  he  would  get  better  judges  on 
Carey  street  than  he  was.  He  knew  nothing  of  book-keeping.  The  utmost  extent 
of  his  skill  in  that  way  was  to  charge  fifteen  shillings  on  his  book  for  a  fee,  and  credit  it 
if  ever  he  chanced  to  get  the  money.  They  sent  there  cases  which  engrossed  three- 
fourths  of  the  time  of  the  Court,  in  which  there  was  no  question  of  law  involved  : 
matters  of  fact  to  be  ascertained.  One  case  had  been  sent  there  by  the  Legislature, 
the  decision  of  which  produced  a  greater  delay  of  the  Judicial  business  of  the  Com- 
monwealth, than  if  the  doors  of  the  Court  of  Appeals  had  been  shut  up  for  twelve 
months;  and  yet  all  the  law  points  involved,  would  not  have  occupied  the  Court  thirty 
minutes.  A  stout  negro  man  could  not  carry  his  papers  from  one  Judge's  chamber 
to  another,  and  he  had  to  use  a  wheelbarrow  for  the  purpose;  and  not  a  point  of  law 
in  the  matter.  He  thanked  gentlemen -for  relieving  that  Court  from  such  outrage  as 
this ;  for,  he  understood  they  were  going  to  be  relieved  by  the  Legislature :  the  busi- 
ness was  going  to  the  Superior  Court  of  each  county,  where  it  was  likely  to  sleep 
forever.  There  had  been  a  great  cry  against  the  Judiciary  :  but  if  they  would  give 
them  back  the  good  old  Circuit  Court  system,  and  send  up  the  law  questions  to  the 
Court  of  Appeals,  they  would  be  able  to  discharge  the  whole  of  their  duty  in  four 
months  of  every  year.  Mr.  C.  said  he  could  not,  and  would  not  sit  there,  and  liave 
that  body,  of  which  he  was  a  member,  openly  trampled  upon.  He  had  long  been  anx- 
ious, that  the  Legislature  should  send  for  him  to  their  bar.  He  was  willing  to  receive 
liis  salary ;  but  he  was  also  willing  to  do  four  times  the  work  for  which  it  was  intended 
to  be  a  compensation.  He  had  all  the  papers  still  by  him,  ready  to  produce,  from  the 
first  day  he  went  upon  the  bench,  and  he  defied  any  man  to  shew  that  he  had  not  done 
his  duty. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  said,  he  was  at  a  loss  to  understand  the  object  of  the  gentleman  from 
Richmond,  (Mr.  Marshall,)  in  wishing  to  lay  this  subject  on  the  table.  If  the  gentle- 
man desired  farther  time  to  consider  it,  he  was  most  willing  to  accord  it  to  him.  Or 
if  it  was  to  have  any  question  thereby  settled,  he  should  not  object  to  it ;  but  it  could 
lead  to  the  settlement  of  nothing,  so  far  as  he  could  perceive.  If  the  worthy  gentle- 
man had  any  proposition  of  his  own  to  offer,  Mr.  F.  would  listen  to  it  with  ail  plea- 
sure. But  the  moment  the  question  should  be  finally  settled,  that  there  was  to  be  no 
principle  of  future  apportionment  in  the  new  Constitution,  that  moment  his  mind 
would  be  made  up  to  vote  against  any  Constitution  that  might  be  agreed  upon. 

Mr.  Marshall  said,  that  nothing  was  more  obvious  than  that  the  proposition  of  the 
gentleman  from  Richmond  county,  (Mr.  Neale,)  would  not  at  present  receive  the 
support  of  any  part  of  the  House.  He  thought  it  was  not  difficult  for  any  one  to  say 
that  it  would  be  decided  in  the  negative.  Now,  he  was  not  willing  it  should  be  nega- 
tived until  he  should  better  know  what  would  be  the  future  course  of  the  Convention  ; 
he  wished  it  to  he  on  the  table  until  that  could  be  determined.  If  obliged  to  vote 
now,  he  should  vote  against  it:  at  a  future  moment  he  might  be  willing  to  vote  in  its 
favour, 

Mr.  Scott  said,  he  was  sure  he  could  not  have  been  misunderstood  when  he  had 
said  that  he  considered  the  question  as  to  a  basis  for  both  Houses  as  settled.  He  knew 
the  House  had  not  given  any  direct  vote  upon  the  naked  question,  whether  tJiere 
should  be  any  future  apportionment  or  not.  But  lie  considered  the  question  as  to  an 
arrangement  for  present  apportionment  as  having  been  settled  directly,  and  the  other 


DEBATES   OF    THE  CONVE.NTION. 


761 


substantially  and  in  effect :  because  the  deliberations  of  the  House  had  been  directed 
to  both.  Scheme  after  scheme  for  future  apportionment  had  been  offered  ajid  as  regu- 
larly failed ;  and  it  had  appeared  to  him  that  any  attempt  to  settle  a  rule  for  the  future 
must  prove  abortive ;  and  therefore  he  thought  the  question  substantially  settled. 

He  was  glad  to  hear  liis  worthy  friend  from  Richmond  say  that  if  they  stopped  at 
present  apportionmentj  he  should  still  consider  them  as  having  done  something.  He 
should  deplore  an  adjournment  of  the  Convention  vdthout  doing  any  thing ;  and  would 
be  williug  to  take  up  this  subject,  did  he  not  fear  the  evils  of  a  prolonged  and  useless 
debate.  He  would  appeal  to  the  venerable  gentleman  from  Pdchmond  himself,  whe- 
ther much  tune  had  not  been  lost  already  in  fruitless  efforts  on  this  subject. 

Mr.  Powell  said,  that  if  the  object  of  the  very  wortliy  gentleman  from  Richmond, 
in  makmg  his  motion,  was  to  give  himself  time  for  further  consideration,  he  should 
cheerfully  vote  for  it;  but  that  object  was  disclaimed  by  tlie  gentleman,  and  he  feit 
free  from  any  obhgation  on  that  score.  If  the  gentleman  had  any  object  in  view  that 
would  be  gained,  he  would  vote  for  the  motion  ;  but  there  was  no  other  scheme  for  fu- 
ture apportionment  proposed.  Why  then  should  tliis  be  laid  upon  the  table  .'  to  get 
another  and  a  better  plan If  so,  he  would  gladly  assent  to  the  motion.  But  if  it  were 
laid  on  the  table  now,  it  would  be  caUed  up  to-morrow,  and  all  the  effect  would  be  a 
day"s  delay.  Or,  did  the  gentleman  wish  it  to  he  on  the  table  till  the  Special  Commit- 
tee should  be  appointed  to  draught  the  Constitution,  and  then  consider  it  afterwards 
If  so,  the  sooner  the  Committee  was  appointed,  the  better.  But  believing  the  only 
effect  would  be  delay,  he  felt  strongly  inclined  to  vote  against  the  motion.  He  was 
willing  to  remain  upon  the  ground  twelve  months  longer,  if  he  saw  the  least  rational 
hope  of  forming  a  Constitution  v\'hich  would  be  acceptable  to  the  people  ;  but  believing 
that  any  Constitution  based  upon  the  principle  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle, 
would  be  rejected  by  the  people,  he  was  himself  determined  to  vote  against  any  which 
should  have  this  principle  within  it. 

3Ir.  Leigh  said,  he  should  prefer  tlie  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  taken 
alone,  to  the  same  with  any  plan  appended  to  it  for  futine  apportionment,  except  two, 
both  of  wliich  had  been  rejected.  If  he  could  add  either  the  plan  of  the  Federal  num- 
ber, or  of  the  mixed  basis  (which  was  nearly  the  same  thing.)  he  should  prefer  it:  or 
if  the  Legislature  was  to  be  left  at  hberty  to  form  new  counties,  and  thus  increase  the 
representation  of  the  West,  as  its  population  should  grow,  and  be  allowed  to  do  the 
same  to  other  counties  on  the  same  principle,  according  to  any  fair  and  just  scheme, 
he  was  wilhng  to  support  the  measure.  As  to  uniting  tlie  present  amendment  to  the 
plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  he  was  utterly  opposed  to  it;  the  results  to 
every  part  of  the  Commonwealth  would  be  highly  injurious,  and  indeed  some  of  the 
oddest  and  most  exti-aordinary  that  could  welTbe  imagined.  As  he  was  resolved  to 
vote  against  the  resolution,  he  could  not  vote  to  lay  it  on  the  table.  ?yo  future  exam- 
ination of  the  proposition  could  remove,  but  would,  on  the  contrary,  only  confirm  the 
objections  he  felt.  The  plan  had  not  been  offered  on  its  own  merits,  but  in  connec- 
tion with  two  other  schemes  which  had  been  offered  at  the  same  time  ;.  and  the  gen- 
tleman from  Frederick,  pir.  Cooke.)  had  said  that  he  would  vote  with  them  on  the 
question  of  the  election  of  Governor,  as  part  of  the  plan,  while  he  had  himself  offered 
a  proposition  in  relation  to  the  Judiciary,  and  another  had  been  proposed  by  the  gen- 
tleman from  Loudoun,  (Mr.  Henderson*!)  and  these  were  the  considerations  which  had 
been  urged  to  induce  them  to  vote  for  the  proposition.  Mr.  L.  said  lie  had  weighed 
these  propositions,  and  found  nothing  in  them  which  induced  him  to  accept  of  the 
plan  now  offered.  Taking  voters  of  any  kind  would  lead  to  the  strangest  results  that 
could  be  conceived.  The  only  defect  in  the  representation  had  occurred  in  the  Valley 
and  in  tlie  Middle  country;  and  yet  this  scheme  took  three  from  the  Valley.  Mr.  L. 
said,  he  considered  it  as  no  part  of  his  duty  to  take  care  of  the  interests  of  the  Valley, 
and  he  doubted,  exceedingh-,  if  gentlemen  from  that  part  of  the  State  would  be  wil- 
ling to  receive  him  as  a  co-adjutor ;  he  knew  they  regarded  him  with  infinite  distrust, 
yet  he  would  take  the  hberty  to  declare  that  he  was  un-^nlhiiof  to  do  injustice  to  that 
part  of  the  Commonwealth,  and  being  assured  such  would  be  the  result,  he  could  not 
but  oppose  the  proposition.  It  was  true,  the  scheme  was  not  to  go  into  effect  till 
1635 — but  in  other  words,  this  was  tempting  the  Vrest,  with  all  the  raw  material  of 
freeholders,  that  is,  free  wliite  citizens  and  vacant  lands,  to  manufacture  freeholders, 
and  thus  manufacture  power,  until  that  p^iod  should  arrive.  He  meant  to  make  no 
charge  of  corruption,  or  to  hnpute  to  the  West  any  vice  of  which  he  was  not  himself 
conscious  :  but  there  was  no  man's  virtue  which  he  would  trust  under  such  circum- 
stances :  nor  would  he  ask  others  to  trast  him  in  the  like  case. 

Mr.  L.  concluded  by  saying,  that  (if  it  vvould  not  be  construed  into  disrespect  to 
the  venerable  gentleman  from  Pdchmond.)  he  would  enquire  of  the  Chair,  whether  a 
motion  to  postpone  indefinitely,  would  not  take  precedence  of  the  motion  to  lay  on 
the  table  .'  But  if  such  a  motion  should  be  held  to  imply  the  least  possible  want  of 
respect  to  the  feehngs  of  the  worthy  gentleman  from  P.ichmoud,  he  should  not 
make  it. 

96 


762 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


The  Chair  replied,  that  according  to  the  rules  of  the  House  of  Representatives, 
there  was  a  precedence  among  privileged  questions,  but  not  by  the  House  of  Dele- 
gates ;  and  therefore,  the  motion  for  indefinite  postponement,  would  not  be  entitled  to 
precedence. 

Mr.  Marshall  consented  to  withdraw  his  motion.    And  thereupon, 
Mr.  Leigh  moved  that  the  subject  be  indefinitely  postponed. 

Mr.  Naylor  opposed  the  motion.  So  long  as  a  ray  of  hope  remained,  he  should 
vote  against  it.  Should  the  Convention  form  a  Constitution,  without  any  principle 
of  future  apportionment,  it  would  prove  an  abortion. 

The  Chair  said,  that  the  indefinite  postponement  could  only  affect  the  proposition 
before  the  House,  and  would  leave  the  subject  still  open. 

Mr.  Neale  now  withdrew  his  amendment. 

After  two  motions  had  been  made  and  successively  withdrawn,  for  considering  other 
subjects, 

Mr.  Cooke  moved  the  following  : 

"  Resolved,  That  it  is  expedient  that  some  rule  or  principle  should  be  adopted  for 
the  future  apportionment  of  representation  among  the  people  and  throughout  the  Com- 
monwealth of  Virginia." 

Mr.  C.  said,  it  was  worse  than  idle  to  consume  time  on  propositions  for  future  ap- 
portionment, if  a  majority  of  the  House  were  resolved  that  no  such  plan  should  go 
into  the  Constitution.  In  order  to  test  the  sense  of  the  House  on  that  question,  he 
had  made  his  motion  in  its  present  form. 

Mr.  Scott  moved  to  amend  it  by  adding  "  provided  such  rule  shall  meet  the  appro- 
bation of  a  large  majority  of  this  Committee." 

The  debate  on  this  question  was  desultory  in  its  character,  and  conducted  by 
Messrs.  Scott,  Claytor,  Nicholas,  Randolph,  Cooke  and  Stanard }  and  resulted  in  the 
following  vote,  and  decided  by — Ayes  51,  Noes  45. 

After  an  ineffectual  attempt  to  take  up  the  Judiciary  report, 

The  House  then  adjourned. 


TUESDAY,  December  29, 1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Douglas,  of  the  Presbyterian  Church. 

Mr.  Henderson  said,  that  he  had  some  days  since  given  notice,  that  he  should  move 
a  re-consideration  of  the  vote,  which  placed  the  election  of  Governor  in  the  hands  of 
the  people ;  but  it  would  be  recollected,  that  such  a  motion  formed  part  of  a  plan,  in 
which  several  measures  were  to  be  united — one  of  which  consisted  of  the  amend- 
ment of  the  gentleman  from  Richmond  county,  (Mr.  Neale.)  That  amendment  having 
been  withdrawn,  and  the  plan,  in  consequence,  not  acted  upon,  he  now  declined 
making  the  motion  he  had  formerly  intended. 

Mr.  Cooke  then  moved,  that  the  Convention  take  up  the  report  of  the  Committee 
on  the  Judiciary. 

The  motion  having  been  agreed  to,  the  first  resolution  of  that  Committee  was  then 
read  as  follows  : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Judicial  power  shall  be  vested  in  a  Court  of  Appeals,  in  such 
Inferior  Courts  as  the  Legislature  shall  from  time  to  time  ordain  and  establish,  and  in 
the  County  Courts.  The  j.urisdiction  of  these  tribunals  shall  be  regulated  by  law. 
The  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals,  and  of  the  Inferior  Courts,  shall  hold  their 
offices  during  good  behaviour,  or  until  removed  in  the  manner  prescribed  in  this  Con- 
stitution ;  and  shall  at  the  same  time  hold  no  other  office,  appointment  or  public  trust; 
and  the  acceptance  thereof  by  either  of  them,  shall  vacate  his  Judicial  office.  No 
modification  or  abolition  of  any  Court,  shall  be  construed  to  deprive  any  Judge  thereof 
of  his  office ;  but  such  Judge  shall  perform  any  Judicial  duties  which  the  Legislature 
shall  assign  him." 

Mr.  Cabell  moved  to  amend  the  resolution,  by  adding  at  the  end  of  it  the  following 
words  :  but  if  no  Judicial  duties  shall  be  assigned  to  him  by  the  Legislature,  he  shall 
receive  no  salary  in  virtue  of  said  office." 

Mr.  Marshall  said,  that  if  the  amendment  had  declared,  that  if  there  were  no  Judi- 
cial duty,  which  the  Legislature  could  assign  to  the  Judge,  none  which  he  could  per- 
form, that  then  he  should  receive  no  salary,  he  should  feel  no  objection  to  its  adop- 
tion ;  but,  it  was  impossible  not  to  see,  that  the  amendment  in  its  present  form,  revived 
the  old  question,  as  to  the  dependence  of  the  continuance  of  a  Judge's  office,  on  the 
will  of  the  Legislature.  Whenever  it  should  be  the  will  of  the  Legislature  to  take 
away  the  employment  of  a  Judge,  by  abolishing  the  court  in  which  he  served,  and  to 
take  away  his  support,  by  assigning  him  no  other  dutieSj  it  was  perfectly  in  their  power 


DEBATES    OF    THE  CONVENTION. 


763 


to  do  so.  If  the  amendment  had  required  no  more,  than  that  a  Judge  should  receive 
no  saiarT;  when  there  were  no  Judicicii  duties  to  be  done,  which  might  be  assigned  to 
him,  he' should  be  content:  but.  if  it  rested  on  the  will  of  the  Legislature,  to  assign 
him  any  duties  or  not.  undoubtedlr,  the  tenure  of  such  a  Judge's  office,  was  a  tenure 
during  pleasure  merely. 

3Ir.  Cabell  said,  he  should  not  be  so  presnraptuous,  as  to  oppose  himself  in  argu- 
ment to  the  venerable  gentleman  from  Richmond  :  nor  was  it  necessary  for  him  to 
do  so.  He  had  been  induced  to  offer  the  amendment,  by  a  sacred  regard  to  his  duty 
to  his  constituents ;  and  he  was  perfectly  confident,  that  if  the  Constitution  was  even- 
tually to  contain  such  a  feature  in  it  as  the  first  resolution  contained,  and  which  it 
was  the  object  of  his  amendment  to  strike  out,  it  would  not  be  voted  for  by  thirty 
men  in  all  the  District  from  which  he  came.  They  wfttfld  regard  such  a  clause  as 
evincing  an  attempt  to  establish  a  band  of  civil  pensioners:  and  he  was  well  assured 
they  never  would  tolerate  it.  So  long  as  an  officer  performed  his  duties,  they  were 
very  willing  he  should  receive  his  salary  :  but  when,  for  any  cause,  physical  or  moral, 
that  officer  should  be  unable  to  perform  the  duty  he  had  covenanted  to  do,  they  would 
not  consent  that  he  should  receive  the  emoluments  of  office.  Mr.  C.  insisted,  that 
his  amendment  in  no  degree  attacked  the  independence  of  the  Judiciary  Department. 
He  should  certainly  be  the  last  man  in  that  Assembly,  who  would  offer  to  do  any  thing 
that  would  have  such  a  tendency.  But,  he  tliought  if  the  Judiciary  DepEirtment  was 
secure,  they  who  presided  in  it  must  be  sufficiently  so.  When  the  public  interest 
should  require  the  abontion  of  a  court,  the  Legislative  body,  coming  from  all  parts  of 
the  Commonwealth,  and  being  acquainted  with  the  interests  and  feelings  of  the  whole 
State,  would  soon  discover  the  necessity  of  the  case,  and  would  abolish  it  accordingly. 
And  when  a  Judge  was  discharged  from  the  necessity  of  performing  any  work,  he 
could  not  conceive  that  he  was  entitled  to  receive  his  salary?  The  idea  that  his  office 
remained  after  his  court  was  abolished,  was  so  very  metaphysical,  that  he  was  really 
unable  to  comprehend  it.  He  had  always  presumed  that  the  office  of  a  Judge  was 
incidental  to  the  court  of  which  he  was  a  Judge,  and  when  the  court  was  abolished, 
it  fell  of  course  :  that  the  office  of  a  Judge  ceased  as  soon  as  the  things  he  was  to 
judge  of,  were  withdrawn.  But,  he  should  not  attempt  to  pursue  the  argument,  or 
amplify  the  ideas  he  had  suggested. 

Mr.  Clavtor  asked,  that  the  question  should  be  taken  by  ayes  and  noes,  and  they 
were  ordered  by  the  House. 

Mjt.  Madison  said  he  availed  himself  of  the  remark  of  the  gentleman  from  Rich- 
mond, to  enqmre  whether  it  would  not  be  proper  to  vary  the  amendment,  so  as  to  say, 
that  if  there  were  no  duties  properly  assignable  to  the  Judge  by  the  Legislature,  that 
then  he  should  receive  no  salary.  He  believed  this  would  meet  the  distinction  which 
the  gentleman  had  sugcfested  ;  and  if  no  body  else  moved  it  as  an  amendment,  he 
would  himself  do  so. 

!Mr.  31.  accordingly  moved  as  an  amendment  to  the  amendment  of  3Ir.  Cabell,  to 
strike  out  the  words  •'•  if  no  duty  shall  be  assiarned  him,"  and  insert  in  hen  thereof, 
••'if  there  shall  be  no  duties  properly  assignable^to  him." 

Mr.  Johnson  rose  to  enquire,  how,  should  the  amendment  be  adopted,  it  was  to  be 
determined  whether  there  were  any  duties  thus  '-properly  assignable,"  or  not.'  If 
the  Legislature  should  ever  be  induced  to  abolish  a  court  with  a  view  to  get  rid  of  a 
Judge,  and  then  it  was  to  be  referred  to  the  same  body  to  say,  whether  there  were 
any  duties  properly  assignable  to  him,  on  the  performance  of  which  his  salary  was  to 
be  continued,  it  was  not  possible  there  could  be  any  other  than  one  decision  of  the 
question.  The  Legislature,  which  had  taken  the  first  step  in  abohshincr  his  court, 
would  assuredly  cake  the  second,  and  declare  there  were  no  duties  which  it  could  with 
propriety  assign  to  him.  In  such  a  case,  there  was  no  umpire  between  the  parties, 
and  thus  the  amendment  would  leave  the  case  just  where  it  was. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  that  the  gentleman  from  Augusta  looked  only  to  the  rare  and 
very  extreme  case,  where  a  court  should  be  abolished  for  the  sake  of  disposing  of  an 
obnoxious  Judge  ;  but  he  seemed  to  forget  that  it  might  often  happen,  that  that  body 
might  abcUsh  a  court  lona  f.de,  because  it  was  useless,  and  could  be  dispensed  with. 
He  hoped  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Orange  would  prevail. 

3Ir.  Nicholas  opposed  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Cabell,  as  putting  the  Judge  at  the 
mercy  of  the  Legislature.  It  could  rarely  happen,  that  tlie  modification  of  a  court 
would  render  the  services  of  the  existincr  Judofes  unnecessary :  and  if  there  even 
were  one  or  two  surplus  Judges,  to  maintain  these  would  be  far  better  than  putting 
the  whole  corps  into  the  power  of  the  Legislature. 

Mr.  Marshall  said,  he  wished  to  submit  to  the  gentleman  from  Orange,  (Mr.  Madi- 
son.) for  whose  opinion  he  need  not  say  that  he  entertained  a  very  profound  respect, 
some  reasons  which  he  thought  would  satisfy  him  that  it  was  morally  impossible  such 
a  state  of  things  could  occur,  in  which  there  should  be  no  Judicial  duties,  which  could 
with  propriety  be  assigned  to  a  Judge  thrown  out  of  employment  by  a  modification 
or  abolition  of  one  of  the  courts.    Supposing  such  Judge  to  belong  to  the  Court  of 


764 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTIONa 


Appeals,  or  to  the  Inferior  Courts  between  that  Court  and  the  County  Courts,  was  it 
possible  sucli  a  state  of  things  could  arise,  in  which  there  would  be  no  duties  pro- 
perly assignable  to  either?  1st,  Take  the  Court  of  Appeals.  When  could  the  case 
occur,  when  there  should  be  no  Court  of  Appeals  ?  Would  the  original  courts  ever 
be  made  final  as  well  as  original  ?  Would  any  man  leave  that  discretionary  with  any 
body  whatever  ?  Would  any  gentleman  say,  there  should  be  no  Court  of  Appeals  ? 
That  there  should  be  as  many  expositions  of  law  as  there  were  Inferior  Courts  ? 
There  were  upwards  of  one  hundred  Inferior  Courts  in  Virginia.  Would  any  man 
say,  there  ought  to  be  an  hundred  and  odd  constructions  of  law  in  the  Common- 
wealth ?  He  was  satisfied  there  was  none  who  would  say  so.  There  must  be  then  a 
Court  of  Appeals.  And  if  so,  could  the  time  ever  come,  when  there  would  be  no 
Judicial  business  for  the  Cburt  of  Appeals  ?  Modify  that  court  as  they  pleased,  there 
must  be  appellate  duties  to  perform. 

Then  as  to  the  Inferior  Courts  :  He  prayed  gentlemen  to  consider  what  he  had  at- 
tempted over  and  over  to  impress  upon  their  attention,  that  the  question  would  no 
longer  occur  as  to  a  man  who  had  been  commissioned  as  the  Judge  of  a  particular 
court.  Should  the  resolution  be  agreed  to  as  it  now  stood,  Judges  could  be  commis- 
sioned as  Judges  of  the  Inferior  Courts  of  the  Commonwealth,  and  their  commission 
would  extend  to  every  court  between  the  Court  of  Appeals  and  the  County  Courts — 
courts  which  exercised  among  them  all  the  criminal  jurisdiction  of  the  country,  and 
all  of  the  civil  too,  which  did  not  come  before  the  County  Courts.  Could  this  busi- 
ness ever  cease  Could  the  time  ever  arrive,  when  there  would  be  no  such  duty  to 
perform No  gentleman  could  loolt  at  the  dockets  of  these  courts,  and  possibly  think 
that  there  ever  could  occur  such  a  state  of  things  as  was  provided  for  by  the  last 
amendment.  That  amendment  stated  an  impossible  case — a  case  where  there  should 
be  no  controversies  between  man  and  man,  and  no  crimes  committed  against  society. 
It  stated  a  case  that  could  not  happen — and  would  the  Convention  encounter  the  real 
hazard  of  putting  almost  every  Judge  in  the  Commonwealth  in  the  power  of  the  Le- 
gislature, lor  the  sake  of  providing  tor  an  impossible  case  ?  He  hoped  not.  But  were 
it  even  possible  that  such  a  case  could  arise,  would  it  not  be  more  wise  to  pay  a  Judge's 
salary  for  a  short  time,  than  to  leave  it  at  the  mere  pleasure  of  the  Legislature,  to  say 
whether  a  Judge  should  retain  his  office  or  not  ?  But  the  case  was  impossible ;  and 
therefore,  he  saw  no  reason  for  adopting  either  of  the  amendments. 

Mr.  Tazewell  said,  that  if  it  was  indeed  true  that  the  amendment  provided  for  a 
case  which  never  could  occur,  that  would  be  a  strong  objection  to  its  adoption,  but  he 
confessed  he  was  unable  to  see  that  length — on  the  contrary,  said  Mr.  T.,  I  think  that 
the  case  will  frequently  occur,  and  that  it  must  be  provided  for.  At  the  outset,  I  must 
be  permitted  to  repeat  a  suggestion  I  formerly  threw  out,  and  Avhicli  has  been  over- 
looked by  the  gentleman  from  Richmond,  (Mr.  Marshall.)  The  gentleman  speaks  of 
the  Legislature's  abolishing  the  Court  of  Appeals — but  that  cannot  be  done.  It  is  a 
Constitutional  Court — the  Supreme  Court  of  Appeals  stands  to  Virginia  in  the  same 
relation  as  the  Supreme  Court  of  the  United  States  stands  to  the  Union.__  Congress 
might  as  well  attempt  to  abolisli  the  latter,  as  a  Virginia  House  of  Assembly  to  abolish 
the  former.  You  have  said  by  your  Constitution, lhat  there  shall  be  a  Court  of  Ap- 
peals.   You  can  neither  abolish  that  court  nor  the  County  Court. 

The  Inferior  Courts  are  subjected  to  Legislative  authority,  and  it  is  in  them,  if  at 
all,  that  such  a  measure  will  be  attempted  as  has  been  supposed.  The  words  in  the 
report  have  been  literally  copied  from  those  in  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States ; 
the  words  of  which  have  received  a  settled  interpretation.  Suppose  the  case  to  have 
occurred,  that  the  Legislature  has  improvidently  adopted  a  system  for  the  Inferior 
Courts  which  works  badly  in  practice — suppose  they  have  agreed  on  a  system  that  as- 
signs to  a  population  of  5  or  000,000  white  persons  a  corps  of  fifty  or  sixty  Judges — 
they  become  sensible  of  their  error,  and  find  that  reformation  is  absolutely  necessary — 
they  accordingly  reform  the  courts,  and  instead  of  sixty  Judges  they  resolve  to  have 
but  fifteen.  What  is  to  become  of  the  remaining  forty-five  The  amendment  comes 
in  and  provides  for  such  a  case.  As  the  resolution  now  stands,  these  forty -five  Judges 
must  all  continue  to  receive  their  salary  during  life.  This,  if  I  understand  it,  was  the 
objection  of  the  gentleman  from  Pittsylvania,  (Mr.  Cabell.)  Would  gentlemen  in- 
troduce into  this  Commonwealth  a  band  of  civil  pensioners  ?  For  what  does  a  Judge 
receive  his  salary  ?  For  the  performance  of  his  Judicial  duties.  But  when  his  court 
is  abolished  he  is  no  longer  a  Judge.  He  cannot  be.  There  is  no  court  in  which  he 
can  pronounce  judgment.  Do  gentlemen  mean  to  continue  to  him  his  salary  for 
nothing  ?  This  is  an  objection  which  strikes  the  mind  so  strongly,  that  in  order  to 
meet  it  beforehand,  the  resolution  is  made  to  say,  that  there  are  potential  duties 
which  the  Judge  may  at  so'me  future  time  be  called  upon  to  perform,  but  he  must  re- 
ceive his  pay  in  the  mean  while — we  are  to  pay  him  now — and  assign  him  duties 
hereafter.  The  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Pittsylvania  holds  a  different  lan- 
guage—it says,  that  when  he  performs  these  duties,  he  shall  receive  his  pay,  but  not 
before- 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


7m 


But  it  is  suggested,  tliat  this  goes  to  sap  the  independence  of  the  Judiciary,  be- 
cause it  is  possible,  that  the  Legislature  may  modify  or  abolish  a  court,  merely  for 
the  purpose  of  getting  rid  of  a  Judge,  and  I  must  vote  against  this  amendment,  lest 
the  Legislature  should  be  so  mischievously  inchned.  as  to  be  guilty  of  this  unworthy 
act.  But,  I  ask,  is  there  not  a  Scylla  on  one  side,  quite  as  dangerous  as  this  Charyb- 
dis  on  the  other  ?  Is  there  not  another  consideration  vrhich  may  operate  on  the  Le- 
gislature, as  well  as  dishke  to  a  Judge  ?  May  there  not  be  such  a  thing  as  partiality 
to  a  Judare  ?  or  to  some  other  individual  wholly  unfit  to  be  a  Judge,  but  whom  the 
Legislature  wants  to  pension  ?  and  may  they  not  with  a  view  to  effect  this  object,  first 
appoint  him  a  Judge,  and  then  abohsh  his  court  ?  In  that  case  he  will  receive  his  salary 
for  life,  and  have  no  duties  to  perform.  The  case,  I  grant,  is  not  a  very  probable  one, 
but  it  is  quite  as  probable  as  the  other.  If  we  are  to  reason  on  tlie  supposition  of 
frauds  by  the  Leo-islature,  we  must  take  into  our  view,  frauds  of  all  sorts — frauds  in 
one  direction  as  well  as  in  another.  A  Legislature  who  would  abohsh  a  court  to  get 
rid  of  a  Judge,  would  not  be  too  good  to  abolish  a  court  to  pension  a  Judge. 

I  cannot  concur  with  the  venerable  gentleman  from  Riclnnond,  (3rlr.  Marshall,)  in 
the  other  branch  of  liis  argument.  He  supposes  that  all  the  Judges,  except  those  of 
the  Court  of  Appeals  vriLl  be  commissioned  as  •'•  Judges  of  the  Inferior  Courts."  I 
do  not  think  so.  The  Constitution  declares,  that  a  portion  of  the  Judicial  power  of  the 
State  shall  reside  in  such  Inferior  Courts  as  the  Legislature  shall  from  time  to  time 
estabhsh.  When  these  courts  shall  have  been  thus  estabhshed,  and  the  Executive  pro- 
ceeds to  fill  the  office  of  Judge,  the  commission  of  the  Judge  will  agree  with  the 
terms  of  the  statute  creating  his  comt.  The  statute  wiU  give  a  name  to  the  court, 
and  in  that  name  the  commission  of  the  Judge  will  run  ]  if  not,  we  shall  have  a  cu- 
rious state  of  things.  The  Judges  in  the  (Tourt  of  Appeals,  and  in  the  County 
Courts,  being  perpetual,  as  Judges  of  Constitutional  Courts,  the  remaining  Judges, 
will  be' Judges  of  the  Inferior  Courts  of  Common  Law:  and  all  Judges  in  Chancery, 
will  also  be" Judges  of  Inferior  Courts,  and  both  being  commissioned  accordiugly,  it 
will  come  to  pass  that  all  our  Chancellors  may  sit  as  Judges  of  common  law,  and  all 
our  common  law  Judges  may  sit  as  Chancellors,  But  if  the  terms  of  the  resolution 
mean,  that  the  Legislature  may  establish  such  courts,  and  with  such  jurisdiction  as 
they  see  fit,  the  natural  course  of  things  will  be,  that  as  soon  as  the  law  has  passed 
creating  any  court,  the  Judge  will  be  commissioned  according  to  the  title  of  his  court. 
He  will  be  a  Judge  of  the  General  Court,  or  a  Judge  of  the  District  Court,  or  a  Judge 
of  the  Superior  Court  of  Law,  or  a  Judge  of  the  Superior  Com-t  of  Chancery,  "if 
the  Legislature  give  a  name  to  the  Inferior  Court,  he  will  of  course  be  commissioned 
according  to  the  specific  description  of  that  court. 

Then  fhe  question  arises,  whether  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Orano:e, 
(Mr.  Madison.)  ought  to  be  adopted  or  not.  I  oTant,  that  if  when  the  Legislature 
perceiving  that  the  good  of  the  commimity  so  requires,  and  the  Constitution  shall  at 
the  same  time  declare,  that  the  Judge  shall  receive  his  salary,  till  some  other  Judicial 
office  shall  be  provided  for  him.  If  this  is  the  mind  of  the  Convention,  then  all  the 
propositions  for  amendment  should  be  rejected.  But  if  this  Convention  subscribe  to 
the  principle  of^ — no  duty,  no  salary — then  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from 
Orange  ought  to  be  adopted.  When  you  give  tlie  ex- Judge  his  new  duties,  tlien  give 
him  his  salary :  but,  if  you  assign  him  no  duties,  let  him  receive  no  compensation, 
on  the  broad  and  general  repubhcan  ground  of — no  labour,  no  pay. 

Mr.  Stanard  next  addressed  the  Convention  : 

The  objects  proposed  are  these  :  It  is  contended  on  the  one  side,  by  those  who  are 
in  favour  of  the  resolution  as  reported  by  the  Judicial  Committee,  that  it  is  neces.sary 
to  except  the  Judges  from  the  caprices  of  the  Legislature,  and  exempt  them  from  a 
dependence  on  the  mere  will  and  pleasm-e  of  a  majority  of  tliat  body.  In  maintain- 
ing this  proposition,  these  gentlemen  do  not  ground  themselves  merely  on  an  argu- 
ment a  priori,  but  on  matter  of  fact  and  experience — experience  of  a  recent  date,  and 
facts  which  have  occurred  in  several  of  the  States.  But  for  some  such  provision,  it 
would  be  in  the  power  of  a  bare  majority  of  the  Legislature,  mider  the  excitement' of 
strong  pohtical  feelings,  or  of  any  other  violent  excitement,  at  any  time  to  undermine 
the  independence  of  the  Judiciary.  They  have  but  to  repeal  the  law,  creating  a 
court,  and  then  to  re-enact  it,  and  aU  the  former  Judges  of  that  court  are.  of  course, 
dismissed.  I  enquhe,  to  know  of  the  gentleman  firom  Norfolk,  (Mr.  Tazewell.) 
whether,  without  some  such  provision  as  is  now  proposed,  this  will  not  be  in  the 
power  of  the  Legislature  ?  whether  they  may  not  thus  create  places  for  the  favourites 
of  the  day  ;  the  ready  tools  of  a  dominant  faction .-  Such  a  power,  as  must  be  most 
manifest,  is  lUteriy  destructive  of  the  independence  of  the  Judiciary.  But  does  the 
evil  stop  there  .-  Does  not  such  a  state  of  things  go  to  make  the  Judges  the  subser- 
vient tools  of  the  most  pernicious  pui-poses  r  And  are  such  purposes  never  enter- 
tained by  the  Legislature  r  Have  we  not  seen  a  sister  State  convulsed  to  its  very 
foundations,  by  questions  between  power  and  property  ?  between  the  vice  and  the  vir- 
tue of  the  State  ■    And  are  we  prepared  to  leave  our  CorLstitution  and  our  Common 


766 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


wealth  exposed  to  such  tempests  of  faction  ?  Surely  it  is  desirable  to  avert  them  if  pos- 
sible. The  question  is,  can  this  be  done,  while  we  avoid  other  mischiefs  of  equal  if  not 
greater  magnitude  ?  Gentlemen  may  make  different  estimates  of  mischief.  Accord- 
ing to  my  estimation,  no  very  serious  mischief  can  arise  to  the  State,  even  if  it  should 
happen,  that  we  have  for  a  time  a  few  Judges  upon  salary  to  whom  no  duties  have 
been  assigned.  Is  such  an  evil  worthy  even  to  be  named,  in  comparison  with  the  evil 
of  a  dependent  Judiciary  But  the  gentleman  tells  us,  that  there  is  an  evil  on  the 
other  side — it  is,  that  an  unprincipled  Legislature  may  be  willing  to  pension  their  ac- 
tive agents,  by  giving  them  an  office  from  which  they  cannot  be  turned  out  by  their 
successors ;  or  if  turned  out,  the  salary  of  v/hich  shall  remain  sure  to  them.  I  need 
not,  I  will  not,  enquire  as  to  the  extent  of  such  a  mischief  as  this.  If  fairly  weighed, 
it  must  be  admitted  that  this  is  a  case  in  the  very  utmost  extreme  of  improbability — 
it  is  such  a  case  as  never  has  occurred,  and  never  will  or  can  occur,  until  the  Con- 
stitution shall  have  become  of  little  value.  But  suppose  it  does  occur.  Suppose  that 
a  faction  hitherto  dominant,  but  about  to  part  with  power,  shall  exercise  the  last  mo- 
ment of  its  authority,  in  providing  for  its  agents,  by  encumbering  the  State  with  an 
army  of  Judges,  is  there  no  guard  provided  against  such  a  case  ?  -  Must  these  use- 
less Judges  of  necessity  retain  their  office  and  salary Does  not  the  eighth  resolu- 
tion give  the  Legislature  full  power  to  remove  them  ?  and  can  there  be  a  better  cause 
of  removal,  than  that  they  had  been  put  into  office,  not  to  serve  the  public,  but  to 
live  upon  it  as  a  band  of  civil  pensioners?  Here  then  is  a  complete  remedy  against 
the  evils  on  one  side,  while  against  those  on  tlie  other,  we  are  to  have  no  remedy  at 
all.  I  shall,  therefore,  offer  the  following  as  an  amendment,  when  the  other  amend- 
ment should  have  been  disposed  of,  viz  : 

To  strike  out  from  the  word  "  but,"  in  Mr.  Cabell's  amendment,  and  add  these 
words  :  "  When  a  court  shall  be  abolished  and  no  new  court  substituted  in  its  place,  and 
the  duties  which  had  been  assigned  the  abolished  court  shall  be  transferred  to  other 
courts,  without  providing  other  Judges  than  those  belonging  to  such  other  courts,  the 
offices  of  the  Judges  of  such  abolished  courts,  may  be  abolished  with  the  courts  of 
which  they  were  Judges.  And  when  a  court  shall  be  changed  or  modified,  and  new 
or  different  duties  assigned  to  the  Judges  of  such  courts,  the  commissions  of  such 
Judges  may,  in  the  discretion  of  the  Legislature,  be  changed  to  adapt  it  to  the  change 
or  modification  of  the  courts." 

Mr.  S.  did  not  consider  it  as  indispensably  necessary,  but  was  willing  it  should  be 
inserted  by  way  of  explanation,  to  remove  all  difficulty  as  to  the  latter  clause  of  the 
first  resolution. 

This,  said  Mr.  S.,  will  leave  it  in  the  power  of  the  Legislature,  to  abolish  courts 
when  they  become  useless,  while  at  the  same  time,  it  checks  the  irregular  exercise  of 
their  power  against  Judges,  who,  perhaps,  by  the  very  virtues  of  their  station,  may 
have  become  objects  of  party  hatred.  Without  this  check,  or  something  equivalent 
to  it,  what  is  the  safeguard  for  the  Constitution  ? 

Mr.  Scott  thought  the  amendment  would  fail  of  its  object— as  a  Legislature  deter- 
mined in  its  purpose  might  easily  evade  it  by  transferring  the  duty  of  the  obnoxious 
Judge  to  another  existing  court ;  and  afterwards  at  a  subsequent  session,  organizing  a 
new  court  and  re-transferring  the  duties  to  a  new  Judge. 

The  question  being  now  put  on  Mr.  Madison's  amendment,  it  was  not  agreed  to. 

The  question  then  recurring  on  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Cabell, 

Mr.  Stanard  offered  the  amendment  he  had  read.    [See  above.] 

This  amendment  gave  rise  to  a  long  and  animated  debate,  in  which  the  merits  of 
the  original  amendment  were  occasionally  mixed  in  the  discussion. 

Mr.  Tazewell  opposed  the  amendment  as  being  against  other  parts  of  Constitution, 
which  provided  for  the  appointment  of  Judges.  To  make  a  man  a  Judge  of  a  par- 
ticular court  by  changing  the  form  of  his  commission,  would  be  inconsistent  with  the 
mode  the  Constitution  prescribed  for  his  becoming  a  Judge  of  that  court.  He  could 
not  conceive  how  a  Judge  as  such  could  survive  the  court. 

Mr.  Stanard  insisted  that  names  did  not  alter  things— and  if  the  same  duty,  sub- 
stantially, was  performed,  it  mattered  not  what  was  the  name  of  the  court — the  same 
Judge  might  continue  to  perform  it.  The  Legislature  might  require  a  Chancellor  to 
perform  duties  of  Oyer  and  Terminer — his  being  called  Chancellor  would  not  prevent 
his  performing  thern,  and  rightfully.  Else,  how  could  a  Judge  of  the  General  Court 
perform  duties  in  the  District  Court  ? 

Mr.  Taylor  of  Chesterfield  did  not  think  Mr.  Stanard's  amendment  would  answer 
its  intended  purpose.  He  was  opposed  to  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Cabell,  as  it  went 
in  his  judgment  to  impair  the  independence  of  the  Judiciary.  Yet  the  resolution  in 
its  present  form  would  not  enable  the  Legislature  to  remove  a  Judge  when  his  court 
was  really  unnecessary.  While  he  opposed  both  amendments,  he  should,  if  they 
were  rejected,  offer  another,  which  he  read. 

Mr.  Giles  went  at  length  into  the  general  subject,  with  a  view  to  show  that  it  was 
impossible  for  a  Judge  to  retain  his  office  as  Judge,  after  the  court  in  which  he  had 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVEXTION. 


767 


performed  Judicial  duties  had  been  abolished.  He  repeated  the  profession  of  his  at- 
t-achment  to  the  independence  of  tlie  Judiciary — but  thought  it  ought  to  be  kept  re- 
sponsible. To  continue  a  Judge's  salary  after  his  court,  and  with  it  his  office,  was 
gone,  was  favoritism  and  introducing  a  privileged  order. 

Mr.  Marshall  declined  entering  inlo  the  argument — but  briefbr  assigned  his  reason 
for  voting  against  -Sir.  Stanard's  amendment. 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  3Ir.  Stanard's  amendment,  and  decided  in  tlie 
negative  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — 3iessrs.  Stanard  and  Upshur — 2. 

yoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Gdes,  Brodnax,  iDromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  3Iarshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Clopton,  Anderson,  Conman.  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwm,  Johnson,  M'Coy, 
Moore,  Beirne,  Smith.  3Iiller,  Baxter.  INIason  of  Southampton.  Trezvant,  Claiborne, 
Urquhart.  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  ]\ladison.  HoUaday,  Mercer, 
Fitzhuofh.  Henderson,  Osborne.  Cooke,  Powell,  Grigsfs.  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor, 
Donaldson.  Boyd,  Pendleton.  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars, 
Roane.  Tavlor'of  Caroline,  ALrris.  Garnett,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Ogjesby, 
Duncan,  Laidley,  Summer;.  See.  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson, 
Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott.  Green.  Tazewell.  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Campbell  of 
Bedford;  Claytor,  Saunders,  Branch,  Townes.  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gor- 
don, Thompson,  Massie,  Bates.  ]Neale,  Rose.  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly  and  Perrin — 93. 

3Ir.  Stuart  now  moved  the  following  amendment : 
Where  a  re-organization  of  the  Judiciary  shall  be  made,  the  Judges  in  office  shall 
in  the  first  place  be  assigned  to  perform  the  Judicial  duties  which  may  arise  under 
such  re-orsranization  :  and  if  there  should  be  more  Judges  in  office  than  may  be  re- 
quired under  the  re-orgaxuzation,  the  Legislature  by  joint  vote  shall  designate  which 
of  such  Judges  shall  be  considered  supernumeraries  ;  who  shall  upon  such  designation 
cease  to  receive  their  salaries.  And  no  new  Judges  shall  be  appointed  under  any  re- 
organization so  long  as  there  are  a  sufficient  number  of  Judges  in  office  to  perform 
the  Judicial  duties  under  such  re-organization." 

The  question  being  put  it  was  negatived. 

The  question  then  recurring  on  the  amendment  of  IMr.  Cabell,  it  was  decided  by 
ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

"  Ayes — Alessrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Giles,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode, 
Clopton,  Anderson,  Coffinan,  Harrison,  Williamson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith, 
Baxter,  Alason  of  Southampton,  TrezTant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart.  Randolph,  Madison, 
Osborne.  Mason  of  Frederick.  Zvaylor,  Donaldson.  Boyd,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell 
of  Washington,  Byars,  Roane,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley, 
See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson.  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis, 
Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Branch,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart, 
Pleasants.  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie  and  Bayly — 59. 

Xoes — Messrs.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Brodnas,  Marshall, 
Tyler,  ]^sicholas,  Baldwin.  Johnson,  Miller,  Leigh  of  Hafifax,  Logan,  Venabje,  Stanard, 
Holladay,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Cooke,  Powell,  Grigo-s,  Pendleton,  Taylor 
of  Caroline,  Morris.  Garnett,  Summers,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Townes, 
Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Lpshur  and  Perrin — 36. 

So  the  Convention  adopted  tlie  amendment  of  ]Mr.  Cabell,  declaring  that  when  ft 
Judge,  by  the  abohtion  or  modification  of  a  Court,  should  have  been  thrown  out  of 
employment,  he  should  receive  no  salary  until  new  duties  were  assigned  him. 

The  question  was  then  put  on  agreeing  to  the  first  resolution  of  the  Judiciary  Com- 
mittee as  amended,  and  was  agreed  to. 

The  second  resolution  was  tlien  read  as  follows : 
Resolved,  That  the  present  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals,  Judges  of  the  Gene- 
ral Court  and  Chancellors,  remain  in  office  until  the  expiration  of  the  session  of  the 
first  Legislature  elected  under  the  new  Constitution,  and  no  longer.  But  the  Legis- 
lature may  cause  to  be  paid  to  such  of  them  as  shall  not  be  re-appointed,  such  sum 
as  from  their  age,  infirmities,  and  past  services,  shall  be  deemed  reasonable." 

Mr.  Claiborne  moved  to  strike  out  the  word  Resolved,"  (in  efiect  to  destroy  the 
resolution.) 

He  contended  that  this  was  not  reform,  but  revolution — remonstrated  with  warmth 
against  the  injustice  of  removing  men  against  whom  no  charge  was  pretended, 
merely  because  there  were  a  few  imbecile  members  of  the  body  to  which  they  be- 
longed. Such  a  measure  was  without  a  parallel  in  the  history  of  civilized  society*.  He 
adroitted  the  existence  of  complaints,  but  thought  that  in  most  cases  they  were  rather 
made  than  proved.  Virginia  might  vie  with  any  of  her  sister  States  in'the  respecta- 
bility of  her  bench;  and  he  trusted  there  was  still  some  veneration  felt  for  it  among 
her  own  citizens.  He  denied  there  existed  such  corruption  or  such  fruitlessness  as 
needed  that  the  axe  should  tiius  be  laid  to  the  root  of  the  tree.  And  if  one  part  of  the 
State  laboured  under  the  evil  of  an  incompetent  or  uiifaitiiful  Judge,  this  ought  not 


768 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


to  deprive  other  parts  of  the  State  of  Judges  who  had  earned  and  enjoyed  the  favour 
of  the  people. 

Mr.  C.  objected  to  the  last  clause  of  the  resolution  as  heing  at  war  with  the  first. 

Mr.  Cooke  took  the  same  ground.  He  was  aware  how  strongly  the  current  was 
setting  against  the  Judiciary  in  Virginia — and  that  it  required  some  share  of  moral 
courage  to  stand  up  and  resist  it.  He  adverted  to  the  compact  made  by  the  Common- 
wealth with  twenty-four  of  her  distinguished,  intelligent  and  learned  citizens ;  in 
consequence  of  which,  they  abandoned  a  lucrative  practice  for  a  place  of  high  honor, 
and  permanent,  though  very  moderate  emolument.  He  owned  that  the  occurrence 
of  the  Convention  intervening  might  put  an  end  to  the  contract :  they  had  the  phy- 
sical power,  but  not  the  moral  right  to  do  so.  The  re-organization  of  the  interme- 
diate Courts  might  be  effected  without  this  ostracism  of  the  Judges.  If  any  were 
slothful  or  incompetent,  there  was  a  provision  for  their  removal.  But  he  thought  the 
representations  on  that  subject  greatly  overcharged  ;  and  bore  honourable  testimony 
to  the  laborious  and  most  faithful  discharge  of  duty  by  all  the  Judges  under  whom  he 
had  practised  for  twenty-one  years  :  he  knew  not  a  single  exception. 

Mr.  Morgan  now  moved  to  amend  the  resolution,  by  striking  out  the  last  clause, 
viz :  "  But  the  Legislature  may  cause  to  be  paid  to  such  of  them  as  shall  not  be  re- 
appointed, such  sum  as,  from  their  age,  infirmities  and  past  services,  shall  be  deemed 
reasonable." 

On  this  question  Mr.  George  demanded  the  ayes  and  noes,  and  they  were  ordered 
by  the  House. 

Mr.  Giles  thinking  the  measure  proposed  by  the  resolution  as  very  harsh,  and  not 
to  be  resorted  to  unless  the  most  imperious  necessity  should  demand  it,  said  he  should 
vote  for  the  latter  clause  as  presenting  some  mitigation.  But  he  hoped  the  whole 
might  be  dispensed  with. 

Mr.  Claytor  was  opposed  to  the  clause — not  seeing  how  the  sum  could  be  needed, 
or  given,  as  a  compensation  for  services  which  had  already  been  compensated  by  sa- 
lary. As  to  the  removal  of  the  Judges,  they  must  fall  with  the  abolition  of  the  courts 
to  which  they  belonged ;  and  none  of  which  were  retained  except  the  Court  of  Ap- 
peals. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  that  if  such  were  the  fact,  and  by  the  adoption  of  the  Constitution, 
all  the  courts,  with  the  Judges  were  to  fall,  ipso  facto,  the  case  ought  certainly  to  be 
provided  for.  The  Commonwealth  would  be  deprived  at  once  of  the  administration 
of  criminal  law,  and  a  pardon  before  had  to  be  provided  for  all  crimes,  until  the  new 
courts  should  have  been  organized.  He  hoped  the  gentleman  from  Augusta  would 
offer  the  amendment  he  had  some  days  since  provided  on  this  subject. 

Mr.  Powell,  differing  in  his  views  from  his  colleague,  expressed  the  motives  which 
would  induce  him  to  vote  for  the  resolution,  and  against  the  amendment.  He  denied 
there  was  either  a  legal  or  moral  obligation  on  the  Commonwealth  to  retain  the 
Judges  in  office.  Not  a  legal  obligation,  because  the  liability  to  be  removed  by  a 
Convention  was  known  when  they  accepted  their  offices,  and  was  by  some  expected 
fully  as  an  event  near  at  hand ;  not  a  moral,  because  though  removed  for  a  moment, 
they  would  all  be  immediately  re-instated  by  the  Legislature  with  the  exception  of  a 
few  who  were  incompetent  to  their  duty,  or  neglectful  of  it.  Such  as  were  disabled 
by  age  and  infirmity,  would  have  their  feelings  saved  by  such  an  arrangement,  and  it 
was  due  to  them  thus  to  soothe  their  feelings.  He  insisted  on  the  justice  and  pro- 
priety of  retaining  the  last  clause  ;  for,  what  was  to  become  of  those  disabled  Judges 
who  should  not  be  re-appointed  to  office  ? 

Mr.  Brodnax,  now  addressed  the  House  nearly  as  follows : 

That  he  could  not  but  be  sensible  that  the  period  for  debate  had  passed  by  in  that 
body  long  since,  and  that  impatience  of  all  discussion  existed  to  a  degree  which  but 
few  of  its  members  could  now  subdue.  That  this  was  particularly  true  of  those  sub- 
jects which  at  different  times,  and  under  various  aspects  had  already  engaged  the  ela- 
borate consideration  of  the  Convention.  But,  Mr.  President,  (said  he,)  it  is  surprising 
that  this  important  project  of  annihilating  by  one  touch  of  the  wand  every  Judge  in 
Virginia — this  act  of  confiscation — this  constitutional  attainder — should  have  hereto- 
fore been  permitted  to  work  its  way  through  the  various  Committees,  and  the  House, 
with  so  little  comparative  observation  or  attention.  I  was  not  a  member  of  the  Judi- 
cial Committee,  and  am  ignorant  of  the  grounds  on  which  it  was  originally  reported, 
and  all  of  us  recollect  that  it  received  the  approbation  of  the  Committee  of  the  Whole 
almost  sub  silentio.  The  reasons  for  its  adoption  were  not  discussed.  That  plausible, 
perhaps  conclusive  reasons  exist,  we  are  bound  to  presume.  The  importance  of  the 
principle  involved,  seems  to  require  that  they  should  be  assigned.  For  one,  I  am  anx- 
ious to  be  able  to  bear  to  my  constituents,  some  reason  for  the  adoption  of  a  plan  in 
reference  to  our  Judges,  which  at  present  strikes  me  as  amounting  not  to  reform  but 
to  revolution.  The  only  argument  with  which  we  are  to-day  favoured,  that  of  the 
gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Powell,)  has  not  satisfied  me  of  the  propriety  of  this 
measure  ^  and  as  it  is  my  misfortune  to  differ  not  only  from  ray  highly  valued  col- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


769 


leagues  on  this  question,  but  from  many  distinguished  gentlemen  here,  for  whose 
opinions  I  entertain  the  most  profound  respect,  and  with  whom  it  is  usually  my  pride 
and  pleasure  to  act,  I  hope  1  may  be  indulged  in  suggesting  some  of  the  objections 
which  to  me  have  appeared  insuperable.  Wliile  I  can  promise  nothing  better.  I  will 
at  least  engage  to  detain  the  House  but  for  a/eic  minutes. 

Sir,  this  scheme  of  shoving  in  one  group  all  your  Judges  ^  -  by  the  board,"  without 
crime  on  their  part — without  even  the  imputation  of  otfence,  appears  to  me  as  not 
only  unjust  to  them  as  individuals,  but  impolitic  in  us  as  statesmen,  from  its  inevitable 
tendency  to  invade  the  independence  of  the  Judiciary,  and  present  a  dangerous  pre- 
cedent to  future  times.    A  thought  or  two,  Sir,  on  each. 

Its  injustice  to  the  present  incmnbents  results  from  its  palpable  violation  of  an  ex- 
press contract  between  themselves  and  the  Government.  What  was  the  original  un- 
dertaking between  the  contracting  parties Is  it  not  strange  that  there  should  be  a 
difference  of  opinion  among  us,  when  the  commission  itself  indicates  the  terms  ? 
Terms,  too,  hterally  and  substantially  coincident  with  the  received  theories  of  the 
ablest  political  writers  in  Europe  and  America  r  And  yet  the  gentleman  from  Frede- 
rick, (3Ir.  Powell)  has  just  informed  us  that  no  compact,  express  or  implied,  existed, 
when  the  Judges  accepted  their  commissions,  inconsistent  with  their  dismissal,  on  the 
adoption  of  a  new,  or  amended  Constitution.  And  the  gentleman  from  Amelia,  (Mr. 
Giles.)  has  more  than  once,  in  reference  to  another  branch  of  this  subject,  expressed 
the  opinion,  that  "  the  Judicial  tenure  was  not  for  life,  but  during  the  continuance  of 
the  office  itself.''  Sir,  I  cannot  but  distrust  the  correctness  of  any  opinion  I  may  have 
formed,  when  I  see  among  its  opposers,  gentlemen  deservedly  standing  so  highly  as 
these.  But,  I  had  always  supposed,  and  such  surely  is  the  icritten  evidence  itself,  the 
record  of  the  terms,  which  it  is  not  competent  for  either  party  to  deny,  that  the  con- 
tract is,  indeed,  neither  one  nor  the  other ;.  but  during  good  behaviour — dum  se  bene 
gesserit."    l^ot  during  the  continued  existence  of  the  office,  surely;  for  a  breach  of 

good  behaviour"  would  properly  operate  the  removal  of  the  Judge  from  his  office, 
when  it  might  be  very  inexpedient  to  abolish  the  office  itself.  The  real  undertaking 
is,  that  the  Judge  on  his  part  shall  faithfully  render  all  the  services  he  can  in  tire  dis- 
charge of  his  official  duties,  and  the  State  engages  that  he  shall  continue  to  occupy 
the  office,  so  long  as  he  continues  to  •'■'behave  well."'  And  by  another  provision  of 
the  Constitution,  on  the  faith  of  which  he  contracts  the  engagement,  '•'  his  salary  shall 
not  be  diminished  duiing  such  continuance  in  office."  So  long  then  as  he  is  able  and 
willing  to  discharge  the  Judicial  functions  to  which  he  was  appointed — or  in  the  tech- 
nical language  which  time  has  consecrated,  and  wiiich  imports  precisely  the  same, 
so  long  as  he  behaves  well,  the  State  on  its  part,  has  neither  the  right  to  dismiss  him 
from  office,  nor  abate  any  portion  of  his  salary.  ±Vow,  all  the  world  would  cry  out  on 
the  bad  faith — the  gross  injustice  of  diminishing  his  salary  one-half;  but  only  take 
away  all,  by  disixdssing  him  from  the  station  which  you  engaged  he  shouVd  occupy 
during  his  good  behaviour,  and  then  there  is  no  injustice  in  the  proceeding.  This, 
Sir,  cannot  be  a  legitimate  induction.  The  State  constitutes  one  of  the  contracting 
parties — the  Judge  the  other.  We  ha  ve  the  physical  povrer  it  is  true,  but  is  it  morally 
proper  that  one  party  should  rescind  the  contract  without  the  consent  of  the  other  ? 
As  between  individuals,  there  is  not  a  code  of  laws  on  earth  which  would  not  repro- 
bate it. 

But,  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (3Ir.  Powell)  assures  us,  that  the  present  Judi- 
cial incumbents  will,  \^-ith  few  exceptions,  no  doubt,  be  re-elected  by  the  Legislature. 
So  far  as  tins  consideration — this  uncertain  expectation — is  to  afford  a  motive  of  action 
to  us,  I  beg  that  it  may  be  examined  for  a  moment.  That  it  has.  and  will  greatly  in- 
fluence the  course  of  many  gentlemen  in  this  body,  we  are  not  left  to  doubt.  We 
make  all  the  Judges  walk  the  plank,"  offending  or  unoffending,  under  the  expecta- 
tion, that  when  we  have  plunged  them  all  in  the  ocean,  the  Legislature  will  send  out 
safety  boats,  and  pick  them  up  I  Some,  they  no  doubt  will  pick  up — some,  lh.e\  cer- 
tainly will  not.  But,  I  pray  you.  Sir,  as  far  as  ice  are  concerned,  is  not  tlie  principle 
we  are  called  on  to  adopt,  in  expunginfj  all  of  them  from  the  roll  of  our  officers,  pre- 
cisely the  same  as  if  we  knew  in  anticipation,  that  not  one  would  be  re-instated  t  What 
more  could  ice  do  to  destroy  them?  It  would,  indeed,  be  a  most  persecuting  and  vin- 
dictive disfranchisement,  which  would  go  the  leno-th  of  destroying  their  capacity 
for  all  future  office.  In  this  respect,  we  are  to  leave^them  exactly  in  the  same  condi- 
tion with  every  other  person.  If  re-appointed  by  the  Legislature,  they  will  hold  un- 
der their  new  commissions  only.  They  will  have  no  higher  constitutional  or  legal 
claim  to  selection,  than  every  other  citizen  of  Virginia.  There  will  be  no  obligation 
on  the  electing  body  to  provide  for  them.  There  are  other  lawyers  in  the  State,  equcil 
in  legal  abilities  to  any  Judges,  and  we  have  no  doubt,  many  young  lawyers  among 
us,  who.  in  their  own  judgment  at  least,  are  very  well  qualified  to  ffil  the  seats  of  the 
present  Judges.  And  if  the  Legislature  shall  re-elect  most  of  the  present  incumbents, 
it  will  mainly  be  ascribable  to  that  moral  sympathy,  which  ever  induces  the  generous 
to  elevate  those,  whom  they  regai'd  as  having  been  uniustly  degraded.    So  that,  in 

97 


770 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


truth,  we  look  to  the  Legislative  re-appointment  of  those  Judges  whom  we  are  about 
to  cashier,  with  a  confidence,  inspired  by  the  belief,  that  they  will  see  and  feel  that 
we  have  done  them  injury,  and  will  repair  it.  We  do  icrong,  that  the  Legislature 
may  do  right.    Sir,  this  cannot  be  morally  or  politically  correct. 

Mr.  President — I  said  that  this  appeared  to  me  not  a  reforming'^  but  a  revolutionary 
movement.  It  is  xdovsc  than  revolution.  Where  has  the  most  thorough  and  radical 
revolution  ever  occurred  among  a  people  pretending  to  civilization,  in  which  the  con- 
tracts and  disabilities  of  the  old  Government  were  not  recognized  and  respected  by 
the  new  ?  Even  in  absolute  monarchies,  where  the  Government  itself  resides  almost 
exclusively  in  the  person  of  the  King,  and  the  revolution  has  resulted  from  the  ejec- 
tion from  the  throne  of  an  acknowledged  pretender,  are  the  national  debts  and  engage- 
ments of  the  previous  reign  cancelled  ?  Certainly  not.  Sir.  The  principles  of  inter- 
national law,  as  well  as  of  moral  propriety,  prohibit  it.  The  United  States  at  this 
very  time,  if  I  am  not  greatly  mistaken,  have  claims  of  that  character,  in  negociation 
with  more  than  one  foreign  Court.  Who  has  forgotten,  that  after  our  revolution,  and 
when  every  tie  wliich  bound  us  to  the  mother  country  had  been  severed,  (except  the 
ties  of  universal  justice  and  benevolence,  which  should  alike  obtain  in  every  region 
and  in  every  age,)  that  the  inspired  eloquence  of  the  immortal  Henry  himself,  was 
vainly  exercised,  in  this  very  city,  to  persuade  the  proper  tribunal  to  refuse  the  pay- 
ment of  the  British  debt?  And  can  that  which  would  be  morally  wrong  between  na- 
tions, or  between  individuals,  be  rigJit  between  a  Government  and  one  of  its  own  citi- 
zens ?  The  only  difterence  must  be,  that  in  regard  to  nations,  the  parties  are  co-ordi- 
nate in  dignity  and  power.  A  treaty  or  a  war  secures  the  right  or  affords  the  remedy. 
In  the  latter  case,  one  of  the  parties  is  an  individual,  dependent  on  the  other  for  pro- 
tection— a  worm  under  our  heel,  whom  we  have  power  to  grind  to  dust,  if  such  be 
our  pleasure. 

Sir,  many  of  these  Judges  have  been  long  in  office,  and  it  may  be  thought  that  the 
duration  of  their  tenure  has  already  transcended  their  own  most  sanguine  expectations 
when  they  accepted  commission ;  that  at  least  there  will  be  less  of  injustice  in  dis- 
charging these  ancient  servants  without  even  their  "  six  months  pay  in  advance,"  as  they 
have  so  long  drawn  salaries  from  the  public  treasury.  It  may.  Sir, for  aught  I  know, have 
been  less  in  mercy  than  in  vengeance,  that  the  Almighty  Providence  has  thus  pro- 
tracted their  existence,  in  a  cold-hearted,  changeable,  and  ungrateful  world.  Of  this 
I  say  nothing.  But  suppose.  Sir,  for  illustration,  that  your  existing  establishment  in- 
cluded Judges  recently  commissioned,  appointed  within  the  last  year  or  two.  Whe- 
ther the  fact  accords  with  the  supjwsition,  I  leave  with  the  House — and  suppose  that 
these  Judges  in  accepting  office,  had  to  abandon  a  lucrative  profession.  If  they  had 
not,  they  were  not  fit  for  Judges.  A  profession,  on  which  themselves  and  their  fami- 
lies were  dependent,  more  lucrative  greatly  than  the  offices  of  which  they  are  now 
incumbents,  but  exchanged  for  those  offices  in  consideration  of  the  superior  perma- 
nency and  certainty  of  the  annual  avails.  You  have  seduced  these  gentlemen  from 
their  practice,  and  kept  them  from  it  exactly  long  enough  for  them  to  have  lost  it  all. 
Exactly  long  enough  for  all  hopes  of  usefulness — of  distinction — nay.  Sir,  of  support, 
to  be  barred  against  them  in  that  direction  forever.  Every  observer  must  have  re- 
marked the  extreme  difficulty  of  any  professional  gentleman,  once  in  possession  of  an 
extensive  practice,  but  who  has  temporarily  abandoned  it,  ever  regaining  it.  Why 
the  fact  should  exist,  I  shall  not  pretend  to  account  for,  but  we  have  all  seen  it,  and^ 
know  that  he  does  not  set  out  on  his  new  career  even  with  equal  chances  with  his 
new  and  inexperienced  competitors.  Sir,  will  this  effect  of  the  proposed  resolution 
he  just?  Is  it  morally  defensible  ?  It  has  long  been  said,  that  republics  are  fickle  and 
ungrateful;  let  it  not  hereafter  be  added,  that  they  are  unjust  also. 

Sir,  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Powell,)  predicts  to  us  that  those  Judges 
only  will  fail  of  re-election  by  the  Legislature  v/ho  ought  to  be  turned  out,  and  it  has 
on  repeated  occasions,  not  more  frankly,  but  more  distinctly  been  intimated  to  us  that 
it  was  necessary  to  get  rid  of  one  or  two  particular  disabled  or  obnoxious  Judges,  to 
whom  a  reference  sufficiently  intelligible  has  been  made  by  some  general  provision, 
not  personal  to  these  individuals.  We  are  so  given  to  delicacy,  that  we  must  decapi- 
tate all — sacrifice  the  innocent  and  worthy  together  v/ith  the  offending  one,  to  keep  him 
in  countenance — as  if  to  displace  all,  and  then  re-appoint  all  but  one,  would  not  as  ef- 
fectually wound  his  feelings,  as  if  he  had  been  disbanded  alone  in  the  first  instance. 
But,  Sir,  is  it  not  cruel  and  unjust  to  punish  the  aggregate  corps  for  the  imbecility  or 
offence  of  one  1  Are  principles  to  be  sacrificed  to  remedy  partial  and  short-lived  evils.? 
The  reason  is  one  which  cannot  be  avowed  publicly,  and  therefore,  should  not  be  acted 
on  privately. 

The  object  avowed  by  some  of  the  friends  of  this  resolution  elsewhere,  at  least,  is  to 
sink  all  the  present  Judges,  that  we  may  have  "  a  clear  sea" — to  enable  the  new  Go- 
vernment to  get  under  way  without  embarrassment — the  Legislature  to  be  unfettered 
in  organizing  its  Judiciary  ;  while  others  advance  a  step  further,  and  hail  this  as  a  hap- 
py opportunity  of  abating  what  they  regard  as  a  nuisance,  and  selecting  an  abler 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


771 


bench.  But,  Sir,  what  is  the  difficulty  which  is  to  embarrass  the  Legislature,  by  the 
retention  of  the  present  Judges,  in  any  new  organization  of  the  Courts,  which  in  these 
days  of  upturning  reform  may  be  attempted  ?  I  defy  them  to  prescribe  any  new  plan 
which  will  notre'quire  at  least  as  many  Judges,  as  those  now  in  commission.  Every 
projet  which  we  have  heard  spoken  of,  will  require  more.  Let  them  give  to  your  in- 
termediate courts  both  equitable  and  legal  jurisdiction — and  assign  two  Judges  to  hold 
conjointly  these  courts  of  assize.  Examine,  Sir,  any  other  plan  you  have  heard  spoken 
of,  (let  it  have  been  ever  so  wild.)  and  see  if  any  diminution  of  the  numher  of  your 
Judges  is  to  be  the  probable  result.  But  suppose,  Sir,  that  in  the  felicity  of  modern 
invention,  some  expedient  should  be  discovered,  hy  which  justice,  both  at  law  and  in 
chancery,  could  be  administered,  with  all  the  pre-requisites  of  promptitude — contiguity 
to  every  man's  door — faithful  impartiality  and  luminous  ability — that  all  this  could  be 
done  without  time  for  the  Judges  to  reflect,  much  less  to  read,  and  compare  authori- 
ties— without  the  possibihty  of  liny  Judge  ever  becoming  sick  or  ever  growing  old  ;  but 
on  the  contrary,  ahvays  being  able  to  ride  with  the  celerity  of  one  of  Porter's  express- 
es— and  that  all  this  could  be  effected  by  feicer  Judges  than  we  have  at  present — so 
that  we  should  have  on  our  hands  one  or  two  supernumeraries.  What  then  ?  In  a 
short  time  they  would  themselves  die,  or  be  called  on  to  fill  the  vacancy  of  some  other 
who  had  died.  For,  Sir,  contrary  to  what  appears  the  general  opinion,  my  own  belief 
is,  that  Judges,  like  other  men,  do  sometimes  die.  But  suppose  they  never  would 
die,  what  then  would  be  the  character  of  the  objection  ?  One,  Sir,  simply  and  exclu- 
sively of  expense. 

Mr.  President, — I  will  not  enquire  whether  you  have  ever  looked  into  the  subject 
of  the  relative  expense  of  the  difterent  departments  of  our  Government.  Every  mem- 
ber of  this  Convention  is  conversant  with  the  subject,  and  need  only  be  reminded  of 
it.  The  cost  of  the  whole  of  our  Judiciary  establishment — that  department  of  Go- 
vernment which  comes  nearest  home  to  the  observation,  the  feelings,  the  interests  of 
every  community — that  institution  which  protects  our  property,  our  persons,  our  re- 
putations, and  our  lives — that  part  of  Government  which  is  alone  visible  and  tangible 
to  the  humblest  citizen — the  operation  of  this  immensely  important  system  in  our 
political  machinery,  costs  comparatively  nothing  :  a  mere  drop  to  the  ocean — a  frac- 
tion of  a  cent  to  every  individual  in  the  State — while  our  Legislature  costs  more  than 
one  hundred  thousand  dollars  annually,  in  enacting  statutes  one  vrinter,  and  repealing 
them  the  next.  The  body  over  v.-liich  you  preside,  together  with  the  Legislature  now 
in  session,  involves  an  expense  to  the  Commonwealth,  of  nearly  ^  2,()'00  every  clay. 
And  yet  we  are  exceedingly  apprehensive  of  the  expense  of  one  or  two  supernume- 
rary Judges  for  a  very  short  time  !  And  to  obviate  so  dreadful  a  contingent  evil,  we 
are  willing  to  overturn  all  the  principles  of  justice  and  moral  propriety.  Surely  eco- 
nomy and  retrenchment  have  become  the  order  of  the  day  with  a  vengeance.  And 
to  minister  to  the  sickly,  fastidious  taste  of  the  times,  we  are  to  adopt  constitutional 
attainders  and  confiscations. 

But  it  was  urged  the  other  day,  by  the  gentleman  from  Amelia,  (Mr.  Giles.)  that 
viuthout  this  general  abolition,  the  once  highly  respected  and  respectable,  but  now 
aged  and  infirm  Judge,  v\'hom  lie  indicated  might  be  called  on  to  perform  Judicial  du- 
ties in  soine  assigned  station  ;  and  though  unable  to  act,  he  must  of  necessity  be  re- 
tained on  the  list,  wliile  the  duties  allotted  to  him  would  remain  undischarged.  Sir, 
if  this  fear  were  well  founded,  and  another  more  efiicient  Judge  had  to  be  appointed 
to  his  place,  is  it  not  obvious  that  it  still  resolves  itself  into  a  question  of  the  expense 
to  the  State  of  a  salary  to  a  Judge  t  But  the  difiiculty  cannot  occur  even  by  possi- 
bility. If  any  supernumeraries  are  left  out  in  a  new  organization,  they  scarcely  will 
be  of  those  least  qualified  for  service — the  old  and  infirm.  Whether  they  are  wanting 
or  not  at  first,  whenever  called  on  to  render  official  services,  for  which,  from  age  or 
infirmity,  they  are  disqualified,  they  can  at  once  be  removed  from  office  under  the 
provision  of  that  resolution,  which  confers  on  the  Legislature  the  power  of  amotion, 
by  a  vote  of  two-thirds,  without  even  assigning  the  reason. 

As  to  the  particular  section  of  this  resolution,  now  moved  to  be  stricken  out,  I  re- 
gard the  course  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Powell.)  as  correct — that  its 
discussion  necessarily  involves  the  whole  subject — in  itself,  it  is  a  matter  of  little  mo- 
ment. The  permissive,  not  comjndsory  authority  to  the  Legislature  to  pay  to  such 
Judges  as  might  not  be  re-appointed,  such  sum  as,  from  their  age,  infirmities  and 
past  services,  shall  be  deemed  reasonable,"  would  be  worse  than  useless.  Who  is  to 
judge  The  Legislature — and  they  only  in  cases  of  age  and  infirmity,  as  v.-ell  as  long 
service.  But  suppose  your  Judge,  though  long  in  service,  labours  under  the  misfor- 
tune of  yet  possessing  a  vigorous  constitution  and  an  unimpaired  intellect,  he  is  to 
be  turned  adrift  with  the  implied  prohibition  that  any  relief  shall  be  extended  to  him. 
But,  if  cases  to  abide  this  partial  relief  would  be  strictly  applicable,  is  it  not  surprisincr 
that  it  should  be  advocated  by  the  very  gentleman  who  so  powerfully  reprobates  what 
he  calls  a  p)^nsion  system  ?  Sir,  this  scheine  of  Judicial  pauperism  would  in  practice 
be  futile.    The  Judge  who  accepted  it,  would  go  forth  to  the  world  with  a  brand  on 


772 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


his  forehead,  and  it  would  be  rejected  with  indignation  by  every  individual  of  feeling 
or  honor. 

Sir,  our  labours  thus  far  on  this  subject,  appear  to  me  to  have  operated  a  most  in- 
congruous result.  We  have,  by  a  large  majorit}^,  refused  to  strike  out  the  previous 
resolution,  which  provides,  that  no  abolition  or  modification  of  an  existing  court,  shall 
deprive  the  Judge  of  his  office,  &c. ;  and  most  correctly,  as  I  think,  have  we  decided. 
If  we  had  not,  then  the  Legislature,  whenever  for  political  or  other  considerations, 
they  desired  to  get  rid  of  an  obnoxious  Judge,  would  only  have  to  abolish  his  court, 
and  he  would  have  fallen  with  it.  This,  too,  by  a  bare  majority  of  the  Legislature, 
when  we  require  two-thirds  to  displace  him  arbitrarily.  And  yet.  Sir,  after  retaining 
that  provision,  the  one  now  under  consideration,  and  which  in  order  immediately  suc- 
ceeds it,  proposes  to  eject  every  Judge  from  his  office,  without  the  abolition  of  any 
court.  The  inevitable  inference  is,  that  what  would  be  icrong  hereafter,  is  rigid  now. 
That  as  to  all  Judges  in  general,  it  would  be  incorrect  to  discard  them  arbitrarily,  or 
under  colour  of  abolishing  their  court ;  but,  as  to  the  present  Virginia  Judges  in  par- 
ticular, it  would  be  very  right  and  very  j^roper. 

But,  Mr.  President,  these  objections  to  the  resolution  before  us,  are  referrible  prin- 
cipally to  tlie  rights  and  interests  of  the  Judges  themselves.  Regarded  in  this  aspect 
alone,  the  subject  is  of  diminished  relative  importance.  As  was  admirably  remarked 
the  other  day  by  the  gentleman  from  Richmond,  (Judge  Marshall,)  it  is  not  on  ac- 
count of  a  few  individual  Judges,  that  the  principle  of  an  independent  Judiciary  has 
been  consecrated  by  the  wisdom  of  ages — it  is  because  the  interest  of  the  State  is  in- 
volved in  it — the  best  policy  of  the  whole  community  requires  it. 

Let  us  then  examine  the  second  objection  which  I  have  intimated.  Has  not  this 
provision  a  direct  tendency  to  invade  the  independence  of  the  Judiciary — not  only 
now,  but  to  all  future  time  ? 

Sir,  after  the  animated,  instructive,  and  transcendantly  able  discussion  on  the  ge- 
neral subject  of  the  independence  of  our  Judges,  of  either  Legislative,  Executive,  or 
people,  with  which  we  were  the  other  day  favoured,  I  hope  it  will  not  be  imagined 
that  I  now  intend  to  offer  a  single  remark  in  recommendation  of  the  principle. 

No,  Sir — We  have  already  on  this  part  of  the  subject,  had  "  Moses  and  the  pro- 
phets" with  us;  and  he  who  was  then  unconvinced  of  the  value,  the  inviolability  of 
this  principle,  "  would  not  be  persuaded,  though  one  should  arise  from  the  dead."  Be 
mine  then,  the  humbler  task  of  pointing  out  one  or  two  aspects,  in  which  this  inde- 
pendence will  be  impaired  by  this  resolution. 

In  the  very  outset  of  the  plan,  every  Judge  in  the  State  is  to  be  dismissed,  with 
permission,  however,  to  be  re-elected  by  the  Legislature,  if  he  can :  Yes,  Sir,  if  he 
can.  That  is,  if  he  can  command  interest  or  influence  enough  with  the  Legislature, 
to  effect  a  favourable  consideration  of  his  pretensions.  And  this  ostracism,  this  ordeal, 
this  walking  among  the  burning  plough-shares,  is  to  occur  some  year  or  two  hence. 
Sir,  does  not  this,  of  necessity,  at  once  throw  all  the  Judges  of  the  State  on  the  elec- 
tioneering arena,  from  this  time  until  that  event  shall  have  passed  ?  Will  not  every 
interest,  every  feeling,  every  prejudice,  even  of  the  human  heart,  invoke  their  most 
active  exertions  ?  Will  it  not  occur  to  them,  that  the  possible  loss  of  office,  now  that 
they  are  too  old  to  resume  previous,  or  attempt  new  occupations,  threatens  them  with 
ruin  in  a  pecuniary  point  of  view.?  And  will  they  not  feel  still  more  keenly,  that 
the  reproach — the  stigma  of  Legislative  rejection,  will  be  the  pronunciation  of  a  judg- 
ment of  condemnation  of  their  previous  official  conduct,  from  which  there  can  be  no 
appeal  and  no  redress  ?  Do  you  expect  them  to  look  on  the  approaching  scuffle  for 
office,  (and  now  all  offices  are  sought  by  crowds  with  morbid  avidity.)  with  calm  in- 
difference Will  they  not,  even  unconsciously  to  themselves,  mingle  in  the  strife 
I  entertain  no  idea  that  the  particular  gentlemen  who  now  ornament  the  Virginia 
bench,  are  marked  by  any  proneness  to  the  servility  and  intigues  of  electioneering, 
above  other  persons  who  might  be  in  their  situation.  But  I  regard  them  merely  as  men, 
with  like  passions  and  feelings  with  others.  And  indeed,  if  we  choose  to  offer  to  our 
Judges  an  extravagant  compliment,  at  the  moment  in  which  we  immolate  them 
by  the  supposition  of  their  superiorit}'  to  such  temptation,  1  would  ask  why  erect 
any  barrier  at  all  around  their  independence.?  If  we  can,  with  good  reason,  calcu- 
late on  the  purity  of  public  functionaries  under  similar  exposure,  why  provide  any 
checks  or  restraints  ?  In  fine,  why  ordain  any  written  Constitution  ?  But  prudent 
Statesmen  have  ever  found  it  necessary  to  insure  the  virtuous  and  beneficial  dis- 
charge of  public  trusts,  by  walling  them  around,  so  as  to  exclude  the  temptation  and 
the  opportunity  to  err.  This  resolution  breaks  down  this  wall,  and  from  a  ■priori 
reasoning  we  are  left  to  infer,  that  the  fearful  interval  between  this  time  and  the  ma- 
nufacture of  your  new  bench  of  Judges,  will  be  a  jubilee  to  the  lawless — 

"  While  sin  holds  carnival,  and  wit  keeps  lent." 

But,  Sir,  this  is  not  all.  You  not  only  destroy  the  independence  of  the  Judiciary, 
during  this  tumultuous  interregnum,  but  you  exhibit  a  precedent  of  dangerous  ten- 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


773 


dency,  as  long  as  our  Government  shall  endure.  You  settle  the  principle,  that  when- 
ever a  Convention  shall  be  called  in  Virginia,  one  effect  is  to  be,  that  all  the  Judges 
are  to  be  turned  out.  Indeed,  it  has  been  distinctly  contended,  that  the  present  in- 
cumbents accepted  their  commissions  under  the  implied  understanding,  that  their 
Judicial  functions  were  of  course  not  to  survive  the  then  existing  Constitution.  Con- 
nect all  this  with  the  reiterated  public  assurances  of  several  distinguished  gentlemen 
on  this  floor,  on  a  former  occasion — gentlemen,  who,  no  doubt  to  considerable  extent, 
lead  public  opinion  in  their  respective  districts,  and  who  are  eminently  qualified  to 
act  as  prophets,  inasmuch  as  they  possess  the  power  of  bringing  to  pass  the  events 
which  they  predict,  that  if  the  Constitution,  which  we  have  now  on  the  stocks,  shall 
not  be  brought  out  in  a  shape  congenial  with  their  tastes,  that  your  table,  in  one  year, 
will  groan  with  petitions  for  anotlier  Convention.  Sir,  if  they  had  not  told  us,  we 
know  that  this  fever  for  Constitution-making,  has  become  a  mania  in  many  parts  of 
our  country.  When  the  first  written  Constitution  was  prepared  in  America,  it  was 
regarded  by  the  rest  of  the  world  as  little  less  than  a  miracle  ;  but,  we  have  gotten 
our  hands  in  now.  The  people,  with  no  practical  oppressions,  but  as  if  hunting  for  theo- 
retical grievances,  have  become  unsettled  and  dissatisfied  with  the  old  Government, 
under  the  shadow  of  which  they  had  so  long  lived  happily,  had  they  only  known  it. 
And  now,  Sir,  proceed  in  this  work  of  innovation  as  far  as  you  please — still  you  must 
stop  some  where — and  stop  where  you  may,  all  beyond  your  barrier  will  complain — 
new  Conventions  will  be  attempted — and  every  pettifogger  in  the  State,  who  cannot 
write  a  declaration  in  debt,  without  the  aid  of  a  form,  will  consider  himself  qualified, 
at  a  moment's  warning,  to  draft  you  out  a  new  Constitution,  in  neat  form,  and  ac- 
cording to  the  latest  fashion.  And  if  most  of  us — many  at  least — dread  that  this  un- 
stable, unsettled  state  of  things,  will  lead  to  other  and  repeated  Conventions,  is  it 
improbable,  that  your  new  batch  of  Judges  will  also  calculate  on  it,  and  constantly  be 
looking  ahead  for  breakers  ?  That  they  may  look  to  prospective  Conventions — Con- 
ventions to  be  called  by  facilities  to  be  granted  by  the  Legislature — one  effect  of  which 
will  be  the  election  of  a  new  set  of  Judges  by  that  same  Legislature :  a  Convention 
to  be  called  probably  for  the  very  purpose  (if  they  do  not  walk  so  as  to  please  their 
masters,)  of  operating  a  dismission  of  the  Judges.  Would  it,  I  ask,  wath  this  appre- 
hension before  them,  be  strange,  that  they  should  all  this  time  try  to  keep  well  with, 
to  propitiate  this  same  Legislature?  Suppose,  in  this  state  of  things,  a  man  of  great 
influence  in  the  Legislature,  has  a  cause  in  court  opposed  to  an  obscure  individual  : 
Suppose  the  constitutionalit}''  of  some  favourite  enactment  to  come  in  question — or 
suppose  a  prosecution  by  the  Legislature,  of  some  obnoxious  or  unpopular  individual, 
whom  they  were  anxious  to  destroy  :  this  too,  in  times  of  high  excitement,  pending 
before  a  Judge,  who  knew  that  another  Convention  would  probably  soon  occur,  with 
its  concomitant,  the  power  of  discharging  him  for  his  contumacy.  Where,  Sir,  is  the 
man  so  simple,  or  so  innocent  himself,  as  to  confide  in  such  a  tribunal  ?  Where  is  the 
Judge,  imbued  with  the  infirmities  of  our  nature,  who  could  raise  his  head  erect  above 
the  storm,  while  round  his  breast  the  rolling  clouds  are  spread,"  and  shield  the  per- 
secuted and  innocent  accused,  when  the  whole  community  demanded  the  sacrifice 
Without  such  Judges — Judges  who  could  stem  such  a  torrent,  no  Government  is  worth 
a  rush — and  such  Judges  you  cannot  have,  without  rendering  them  co-ordinate  with, 
and  not  subservient  to,  the  Legislature — not  dependent  on  the  breath  of  popular  ap- 
plause, more  fickle  than  the  winds.  Such  Judges  we  have  seen.  Sir — such  I  hope 
long  to  see.  In  this  State,  at  least,  we  have  all  read  a  lesson  on  this  subject,  which 
on  my  mind  has  left  an  indelible  impression — it  has  been  lost,  I  apprehend,  on  none. 
We  have  seen  an  individual  prosecuted,  with  all  the  weight  of  the  United  States  Go- 
vernment— the  entire  influence  of  the  State  of  Virginia — and  last,  not  least,  the  spirit 
of  a  dominant  party,  excited  by  recent  conflict,  and  flushed  with  recent  victory — a 
party  constituting  a  majority,  which  looked  down  all  opposition — all  exerted  in  com- 
bination to  crush  the  accused.  Not  one  found  to  sustain  him — and  when  the  indivi- 
dual, who  would  have  presumed  to  say  a  word  against  his  conviction,  w^ould  have  been 
politically  denounced — perhaps  torn  to  pieces  by  a  mob  !  The  Judge,  whose  firmness 
of  purpose  and  integrity  of  motive,  would  not  permit  him  to  mould  or  fabricate  laws 
to  compass  the  conviction  of  the  accused,  (morally  guilty,  as  he  no  doubt  was,)  he. 
Sir,  we  all  recollect,  was  at  the  moment  universally  execrated,  and  his  decisions  as- 
cribed to  corrupt  motives,  and  favouritism  to  the  accused.  What  7ioid,  Sir,  is  the  opi- 
nion of  all  the  ablest  jurists  and  best  men  in  this  Union,  who,  since  the  storm  sub- 
sided, have  examined  the  report  of  this  celebrated  trial  ?  Is  it  not  without  an  excep- 
tion, that  the  Judge  who  then  presided,  adjudicated  every  legal  question  which  came 
before  him,  with  a  felicitous  accuracy,  almost  without  parallel  in  Judicial  history  ? 

And  how,  Sir,  could  any  Judge,  however  physically  firm,  and  morally  correct,  (but 
dependent  on  the  daily  will  of  the  Government)  have  ridden  out  such  a  storm  in 
safety  ?  Sir,  I  regard  this  trial,  as  one  of  the  brightest  spots  in  the  history  of  the  liber- 
ties of  man.  This  is  the  kind  of  Judges  we  want.  One  who  dares  interpose  the 
sliield  of  the  laws  between  an  infuriated  Government,  and  the  humblest  individual. 


774 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


And  such  we  never  can  have,  in  my  poor  judgment,  should  this  resolution  be  engrafted 
on  the  new  Constitution. 

Mr.  Coalter  said,  that,  as  to  the  last  clause,  he  should  not  vote,  because  he  was  per- 
sonally interested  ;  but  on  striking  out  the  resolution  he  should  vote,  and  in  the  affir- 
mative. As  to  the  Judiciary  generally,  if  the  Legislature  should  continue  the  same 
Judicial  system  twenty  years,  they  would  get  no  better  Judges;  no,  nor  so  good, 
though  he  was  one  of  them.  He  should  take  no  steps  during  the  interregnum  to 
operate  on  the  Legislature.    He  was  no  electioneering  Judge. 

Mr.  Johnson  made  an  explanation  on  the  subject  of  his  amendment,  providing 
against  a  suspension  of  the  courts.  He  presumed  a  general  clause  would  be  added 
including  other  matter  together  with  this  ;  and  the  whole  would  go  to  the  Select  Com- 
mittee. 

As  to  the  resolution  itself,  he  had  nothing  to  say :  it  was  apparent  to  his  mind,  that 
the  independence  of  the  Judiciary  itself,  together  with  the  whole  corps  of  Judges, 
was  to  be  offered  up  as  a  sacrifice  to  popular  clamour ;  and  so  strong  Vv^as  the  current 
against  them,  that  he  had  not  the  vanity  to  suppose  he  could  do  any  thing  to  prevent 
it.  He  would  not  waste  the  time  of  the  Convention  in  vain  and  unacceptable  debate. 

Mr.  Marshall  made  an  explanation  to  Mr.  Johnson,  relative  to  an  omission  of  his 
to  reply  to  a  quere  of  Mr.  Johnson  on  the  subject  of  his  amendment,  and  gave  his 
reasons  for  believing  that  there  would  be  no  suspension  of  Judicial  duties  on  the 
adoption  of  the  Constitution.  As  the  second  resolution  provided  the  time  when  the 
Judges  were  to  go  out  of  office,  he  presumed  the  implication  was,  that  they  were  to 
retain  their  office  until  that  time.  The  Constitution  would  change  nothing  but  what 
was  expressly  changed. 

Mr.  Clay  tor  said,  he  had  not  been  one  of  those  who  were  so  wild  as  to  suppose 
that  the  Convention  would  deprive  the  country  for  one  moment  of  the  Judiciary  es- 
tablishment— nor  was  he  so  wild  as  to  imagine  that  when  Inferior  Courts  were  esta- 
blished by  the  Constitution,  the  Judges  of  the  old  courts  could  claim  the  right  of  pre- 
siding in  the  new. 

Mr.  Stanard  opposed  the  resolution  as  transcending  the  powers  conferred  in  the 
Convention  by  the  people.  They  were  sent  to  amend  the  elementary  law  of  the 
Commonwealth;  that  was  their  plain  and  proper  function,  and  any  rightful  exercise 
of  the  power  must  be  confined  to  that.  The  Convention,  if  it  had  power  to  disband 
the  Judges,  had  power  to  declare  them  ineligible  :  if  it  might  attaint  them  in  their 
office,  it  might  in  their  estates.  This  would  be  exercising  all  the  power  of  condem- 
nation after  an  impeachment,  but  without  having  had  their  judgments  enlightened 
by  evidence.  All  would  shrink  from  an  attempt  to  send  for  persons  and  papers,  in 
order  to  decide  whether  a  Judge  ought  to  be  ostracised,  and  yet  it  was  gravely  pro- 
posed to  go  to  judgment  without  any  inquiry  as  to  his  conduct.  A  large  majority 
were  of  opinion  that  the  Judges  had  faithfully  discharged  their  duty,  yet  they  were 
-called  to  pass  sentence  of  eviction.  He  could  not  suffer  an  act  to  pass  without  re- 
cording his  public  renunciation  of  all  participation  in  it — almost  every  State  in  the 
Union  had  amended  its  Constitution,  vv'ith  the  exception  of  Rhode  Island,  and  yet 
such  a  measure  never  was  proposed  or  thought  of,  except  in  New  York ;  and  there, 
■only  because  the  duties  of  the  Judicial  office  had  been  blended  with  the  most  delicate 
political  trust.  The  effect|  of  which  was,  that  as  the  Judges  were  appointed  under 
political  views,  so  they  incurred  the  most  vehement  resentment  of  a  victorious  and 
dominant  party.  Hence  the  Convention  of  1821,  in  which  the  first  measure  was  to 
■divorce  the  Judicial  office  from  this  connexion  with  the  politics  of  the  State.  Yet 
«ven  here,  reckless  as  the  spirit  of  party  was  supposed  to  be,  such  a  measure  as  cut- 
ting off  the  Judges  by  proscription,  was  never  so  much  as  proposed  or  thought  of. 
They  preferred  the  administration  of  justice  to  the  gratification  of  personal  vengeance, 
and  they  suffered  the  Chancellor  of  the  State  to  discharge  his  duties  until  the  Con- 
stitutional restriction  as  to  age  compelled  him  to  retire  from  office.  And  as  to  the 
Judges  of  the  Supreme  Court  they  were  getting  rid  of  by  a  new  modification  of  that 
Court,  but  not  by  a  naked  act  of  power  turning  them  out  of  office.  Mr.  S.  bore 
honourable  testimony  to  the  assiduity  and  talent  displayed  by  the  Court  of  Appeals, 
and  remonstrated  warmly  against  the  idea  of  turning  off  all  the  Judges  without  a 
charge  against  them.  He  thought  the  violence  of  such  a  proceeding  equalled  only 
by  the  weakness  of  the  reasons  given  in  support  of  it.  He  took  up  the  arguments  of 
Mr.  Powell,  and  argued  to  shew  that  they  furnished  no  excuse  whatever  for  so  arbi- 
trary an  act.  As  to  the  hope  that  they  would  be  re-appointed  by  the  Legislature,  it 
was  only  saying,  that  they  would  perform  an  act  of  flagrant  injustice  in  the  hope  that 
the  Legislature  would  redress  the  wrong. 

He  denied  that  those  who  were  infirm  or  disabled,  whose  situation  claimed  sympa- 
thy and  tenderness,  would  have  their  feelings  soothed  by  being  dismissed  only  in 
company  with  all  the  rest :  because  an  omission  of  them  when  the  others  should  be 
re-appointed,  especially  after  the  ground  had  expressly  been  avowed,  that  all  who 
were  competent  and  worthy  Judges  would  certainly  be  re-appointed,  would  wound 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


775 


them  quite  as  much  as  if  they  had  been  excluded  wmle  others  were  retained.  But 
suppose  the  effect  to  be  different,  where  was  the  morality  of  doing  an  act  of  flagrant 
injustice  to  all,  for  the  sake  of  shielding  the  feelings  of  a  few  ? 

Mr.  S.  concluded  by  recapitulating  the  ground  he  had  taken,  and  presenting  them 
in  one  final  appeal  to  the  Convention,  against  what  he  conceived  so  flagrant  an  out- 
rage on  duty  and  propriety. 

Mr.  Green  asked  and  obtained  leave  to  omit  gi^-ing  his  vote. 

i\Ir.  Scott  then  addressed  the  Convention  as  follows  : 

It  is  with  infinite  reluctance,  at  this  late  hour  of  the  day,  when  so  much  impatience 
is  manifested  by  the  House,  that  I  ask  its  attention  for  a  single  moment.  The  pecu- 
liar relation  in  which  I  stand  to  the  resolution  under  consideration,  makes  it  a  duty 
which  I  owe  to  myself  and  to  the  House,  after  the  strong  appeals  of  its  opposers,  to 
throw  myself  on  the  indulgence  of  the  Hoase  for  a  few  moments.  I  do  not  pro- 
pose to  attempt  a  laboured  argument,  much  less  a  reply  to  those  which  have  been 
urffed  against  the  resolution;  but  will  explain,  very  briefly,  some  of  the  reasons  which 
have  influenced  me. 

I  was  the  mover  of  the  resolution  in  the  Select  Committee.  I  am  nevertheless  one 
of  those  who  estimate  the  value  of  an  independent  Judiciary  above  all  price.  Sir,  I 
will  vote  for  any  Constitution  which  any  portion  of  this  House  may  propose,  with  an 
independent  Judiciary,  in  preference  to  any  Constitution  which  any  other  portion  of 
this  House  can  propose  with  a  dependent  Judiciary.  It  has  long  been  my  settled 
opinion,  that  the  blessings  of  free  Government,  the  safety  and  happiness  of  the  peo- 
ple, and  especially  of  the  middle  and  lower  classes,  cannot  long  be  secured  by  any 
form  of  Government  without  an  able  and  upright  bench ;  and  that  such  an  one  can 
only  be  obtained  by  making  the  Judges  independent.  I  do  not  mean  an  indepen- 
dence of  the  ordinary  appointing  power. 

We  are  assembled  here  as  the  representatives  of  a  people  having  an  existing  social 
system,  consisting  of  a  body  of  lavrs.  fundamental  and  ordinary,  and  a  set  of  func- 
tionaries to  carry  those  laws  into  operation.  Our  task  is  to  recommend  to  that  people 
such  changes  in  their  social  system  as  we  think  conducive  to  their  happiness.  We 
may  recommend  it  to  them  to  change  their  fundamental  law,  their  ordinary  laws,  or 
to  dismiss  the  whole,  or  any  part  of  their  servants.  I  think  it  expedient  to  recommend 
to  them  to  dismiss  their  Judges.  I  am  not  one  of  those  vrho  think,  that  under  the 
existing  Constitution,  or  any  Constitution  which  declares  that  the  Judges  shall  hold 
their  office  dining  good  behaviour,  a  Judge  can  be  deprived  of  his  office  by  abohshing 
his  court.  I  cannot  perceive  the  distinction  between  taking  the  man  from  the  office, 
and  taking  the  office  from  the  man.  The  consequence,  to  my  apprehension,  is  the 
same  in  either  case.  Mr.  President,  it  would  be  a  violation  of  order,  if  I  were  to 
take  you  out  of  that  Chair,  and  I  cannot  perceive  how  I  should  be  less  guilty  of  a 
violation  of  order,  if  I  were  to  take  the  chair  from  under  you.  This  view  of  the  sub- 
ject, rendered  it  necessary,  if  it  be  proper  that  tiie  present  Judges  should  be  removed, 
that  their  removal  should  be  effected  by  a  constitutional  provision.  Such  a  provision 
is  no  longer  necessary,  after  the  adoption  of  the  amendment  to  the  first  resolution  : 
under  that  provision,  the  Judges  may  at  any  time  be  legislated  out  of  office.  It  is 
under  a  faint  hope,  that  that  amendment  may  not  receive  the  final  sanction  of  this 
House,  that  I  am  induced  to  say  any  thing  on  the  resolution  under  consideration. 

Mr.  President,  it  is  agreed  on  all  hands,  that  our  present  Judicial  system  has  not 
accomplished  the  end  proposed — a  speedy  and  satisfactory  administration  of  justice. 
This  failure  must  arise  either  from  a  defect  in  the  system,  or  fi'om  the  fault  of  the 
Judges,  or  both.  If  it  be  attributable  to  the  defects  of  the  system,  then  it  is  desirable 
that  the  Legislature  should  have  free  scope  to  amend  it.  We  should  not  impose  upon 
them  the  necessity  of  suiting  the  sj'stem  to  the  Judges,  but  enable  them  to  select 
Judges  to  suit  a  system,  which,  in  their  wisdom,  shall  seem  best.  If  it  arises  from 
the  fault  of  the  Judges,  then  they  ought  to  be  removed.  Sir,  if  I  believed  for  a  mo- 
ment, that  party  spirit  or  faction,  or  a  personal  dislike  to  the  Judges  mingled  in  this 
matter,  or  would  enter  into  the  question  of  their  re-appointment,  I  should  be  the  last 
man  in  the  Convention  to  propose  such  a  measure,  i  believe  that  all  of  them  who 
are  worthy,  will  be  re-appointed.  It  is  because  I  believe  the  public  good  requires  it, 
that  I  proposed  the  resolution  under  consideration.  But  whilst  I  feel  it  my  duty  to 
make  this  sacrifice,  of  individuals  to  the  public  good,  for  such  I  consider  it,'^I  am  for 
making  compensation  to  such  as  shaU  not  be  re-appointed,  so  far  as  money  can  com- 
pensate. I  prefer  an  amendment  which  shall  make  it  obligatory  on  the  Leo-islature 
to  make  that  compensation,  and  in  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  voted  ag-ainst  the 
resolution  because  that  amendment  failed.  Subsequent  reflection  induces  me  to  vote 
for  the  resolution,  provided  the  latter  clause  of  it  be  retained.  I  consider  that  clause 
a  declaration  of  the  opinion  of  this  Convention,  that  tlie  Legislature  ought  to  make 
compensation ;  and  relying  tliat  a  recommendation  from  such  a  quarter  will  not  be 
unheeded,  I  am  content,  though  reluctantly,  to  take  the  resolution  as  it  stands.  But 
if  that  clause  be  stricken  out.  I  shall  vote  against  the  resolution.    Such  a  provision 


776 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


can  have  no  tendency  to  introduce  the  much  dreaded  pension  system.  As  a  removal 
of  the  Judges  on  the  one  hand,  by  an  exertion  of  the  primary  sovereign  power  of  the 
people,  does  not  impair  the  independence  of  the  Judiciar}^,  so  on  the  other,  a  com- 
pensation allowed  by  the  same  power  to  those  who  may  not  be  re-appointed,  can  fur- 
nish no  precedent  to  the  ordinary  Legislature  for  the  establishment  of  pensions  and 
sinecures. 

The  question  was  at  length  taken  on  striking  out  the  clause  which  declares  that 
"  the  Legislature  may  cause  to  be  paid  to  such  of  them  as  shall  not  be  re-appointed, 
such  sum  as,  from  their  age,  infirmities  and  past  services,  shall  be  deemed  reasonable." 

And  decided  as  follows  by  ayes  and  noes  : 

Aijes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Dromgoole,  Alexander, 
Goode,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Anderson,  ColFman,  Harrison,  Wilhamson,  Baldwin, 
M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant, 
Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Fitzhugh,  Mason  of  Frederick,  George,  M'Millan, 
Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Mathews,  Oglesby, 
Laidley,  Summers,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Tazewell,  Campbell  of  Bedford, 
Claytor,  Saunders,  Branch,  Townes,  Cabell,  Martin^  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gordon, 
Thompson  and  Bates — 50. 

Noes — Messrs.  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Giles,  Brodnax,  Marshall,  Tyler, 
Johnson,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Mercer, 
Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  "Pendleton, 
Morris,  Garnett,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Duncan,  See,  Doddridge,  Wilson,  Barbour  of 
Culpeper,  Scott,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Massie,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes, 
Bayly  and  Perrin — 43. 

So  the  clause  was  stricken  out. 

The  question  was  then  put  on  destroying  the  whole  resolution  by  striking  out  the 
word  "  Resolved,"  when, 

Mr.  Summers  observed,  that  his  opinions  had  been  in  harmony  with  the  resolution: 
That  he  came  to  the  House  intending  to  vote  for  it,  and  notwithstanding  the  argu- 
ments which  he  had  heard,  his  opinions  remained  unchanged,  although  not  entirely 
unshaken ;  he  however  felt  much  deference  and  respect  for  the  example  of  the  gen- 
tlemen over  the  way,  (Judge  Coalter  and  Judge  Green,)  and  had  determined  not  to 
vote  on  the  question,  should  it  be  the  pleasure  of  the  House  to  excuse  him.  Where- 
upon he  was  excused. 

The  question  was  then  taken,  and  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows : 

Jlyes — Messrs.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Giles,  Brodnax,  Mar- 
shall, Nicholas,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne^ 
Urquhart,  Logan,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Mercer,  Henderson,  Cooke,  Griggs, 
Naylor,  Pendleton,  Roane,  Morris,  Garnett,  Scott,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Pleasants,  Bates, 
Neale  and  Rose — 32. 

jVbe5 — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Tyler, 
Clopton,  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  'Williamson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith, 
Miller,  Baxter,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Venable,  Fitzhugh,  Osborne,  Powell, 
Mason  of  Frederick,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington, 
Byars,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley, 
See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Taze- 
well, Loyall,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Branch,  Townes,  Cabell, 
Martin,  Stuart,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Joynes,  Bayly  and  Perrin — 59. 

So  the  resolution  was  retained,  except  the  last  clause.    It  reads  as  follows : 
But  the  Legislature  may  cause  to  be  paid  to  such  of  them  as  shall  not  be  re-ap- 
pointed, such  sum  as,  from  their  age,  infirmities,  and  past  services,  shall  be  deemed 
reasonable." 

The  third  resolution  was  then  agreed  to  without  amendment  as  follows  : 
Resolved,  That  the  present  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals,  Judges  of  the  Gene- 
ral Court  and  Chancellors,  shall  remain  in  office  until  the  expiration  of  the  first  ses- 
sion of  the  Legislature  elected  under  the  new  Constitution,  and  no  longer." 

Mr.  Doddridge  now  moved  the  consideration  of  his  resolution  for  the  appointment 
of  a  Select  Committee. 

Mr.  Giles  moved  an  adjournment,  but  it  was  negatived. 

Mr.  D.  having  withdrawn  his  motion, 

The  eighth  resolution  of  the  Judicial  Committee  was  then  read  as  follows : 
"  Resolved,  That  Judges  may  be  removed  from  office  by  a  vote  of  the  General  As- 
sembly :  but  two-thirds  of  the  whole  number  of  each  House  must  concur  in  such  vote, 
and  the  cause  of  removal  shall  be  entered  on  the  journals  of  each.  The  Judge  against 
whom  the  Legislature  is  about  to  proceed,  shall  receive  notice  thereof,  accompanied 
with  a  copy  of  the  causes  alleged  for  his  removal,  at  least  twenty  days  before  the  day 
on  which  either  House  of  the  General  Assembly  shall  act  thereupon." 

Mr.  Stuart  moved  to  amend  the  resolution  by  striking  out  the  following  words,  "  and 
the  cause  of  such  removal  shall  be  entered  on  the  journals  of  each.  The  Judge  againat 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


777 


whom  the  Legislature  is  about  to  proceed,  shall  receive  notice  thereof,  accompanied 
with  a  copy  of  the  causes  alleged  for  his  removal,  at  least  twenty  days  before  the  day 
on  which  either  House  of  the  General  Assembly  shall  act  thereupon." 

The  motion  was  negatived  without  a  count.    And  the  resolution  was  agreed  to. 

Mr.  Doddridge's  resolution  was  now  taken  up,  and  after  having  been  amended  at 
the  suggestion  of  Mr.  Summers,  by  striking  out  the  words  "  and  proposed  in  it,"  was 
agreed  to.  The  blank  for  the  number  of  the  Committee,  was  hlled  with  the  word 
"  seven."    And  the  House  then  adjourned. 


WEDNESDAY,  December  30,  1829. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Armstrong  of  the  Presbyterian  Church. 

The  following  gentlemen  were  announced  as  composing  the  Select  Committee  ap- 
pointed to  draught  the  neio  Constitution,  and  submit  it  to  the  Convention,  viz  : 

Messrs.  Doddridge,  Madison,  Marshall,  Johnson,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Tazewell 
and  Cooke. 

Mr.  Stuart  of  Patrick  called  up  the  resolution  he  had  some  days  since  offered,  and 
which  had  been  laid  upon  the  table  :  and  said,  that  at  the  suggestion  of  a  friend,  for 
whose  judgment  he  entertained  the  highest  respect,  he  had  modified  his  resolution  so 
as  to  read  as  follows  : 

Resolved,  That  the  Legislature  have  power  to  provide  by  law,  that  no  person  shall 
be  capable  of  holding  or  being  elected  to  any  post  of  profit,  trust  or  emolument,  civil 
or  mihtary,  under  the  Government  of  this  Commonwealth,  who  shall  hereafter  fight 
a  duel,  or  send  or  accept  a  challenge  to  fight  a  duel,  the  probable  issue  of  which  may 
or  might  be  the  death  of  the  challenger  or  challenged,  or  who  shall  be  a  second  to 
either  party,  or  shall  in  any  manner  aid  or  assist  in  such  duel,  or  shall  be  knowingly 
the  bearer  of  such  challenge  or  acceptance  :  and  every  person  who  shall  be  elected  or 
appointed  as  aforesaid,  shall,  before  he  enters  upon  the  duties  of  his  office,  take  such 
oath  as  is  or  may  be  prescribed  by  law,  declaring  that  he  has  not  violated  the  provi- 
sion of  the  Constitution  ;  but  no  person  shall  be  so  disqualified  by  reason  of  his  having 
heretofore  fought  such  duel,  or  sent  or  accepted  such  challenge,  or  been  second  in 
such  duel,  or  been  the  bearer  of  such  challenge  or  acceptance." 

Mr.  Stuart  observed,  that  the  good  effects  of  the  existing  anti-duelling  law  were 
universally  admitted,  and  were  to  be  attributed  to  the  fact  that  it  addressed  itself  to 
the  ambition  of  that  class  of  persons  who  were  most  frequently  engaged  in  this  prac- 
tice. _  The  reason  he  had  so  modified  the  resolution  as  to  include  seconds  as  well  as 
principals,  was  this,  that  many  a  high-minded  man  would  disregard  any  evil  conse- 
quences interposed  in  his  way,  if  they  extended  to  himself  alone,  while  the  same  man, 
under  the^sarae  provocation,  might  hesitate  at  involving  a  friend  in  the  punishment  of 
disfranchisement,  by  asking  him  to  accompany  him  to  the  field. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  that  in  one  part  of  the  object  sought  to  be  attained  by  tlais  resolu- 
tion, he  most  fi-iUy  and  heartily  concurred  :  it  was  that  clause  which  went  to  extend 
an  amnesty  to  those,  generally  very  young  and  inconsiderate  men,  who  had  become 
disfranchised  by  the  operation  of  the  act  of  1810.  But  he  was  opposed  to  the  other 
part  of  it,  wliich  referred  to  that  act  (now  in  the  power  of  the  Legislature  and  liable 
to  be  repealed)  and  made  it  a  constitutional  provision,  disqualifying  those  on  whom  it 
had  taken  effect  for  all  time  to  come.  Pie  considered  this  in  utter  contrariety  to  all 
correct  notions  of  political  justice,  which  required  that  there  should  be  no  crime,  for 
the  pardon  of  wluch  some  provision  should  not  be  made  by  law. 

Even  treason,  a  crime  which  aimed  at  the  existence  of  Government,  and  of  society 
itself,  was  not  placed  beyond  the  scope  of  this  principle  :  for,  the  Constitution  of  the 
United  States,  and  indeed  the  Government  of  every  civilized  nation  in  the  world,  had 
provided  some  authority  by  which  it  might  be  pardoned.  And  it  must  necessarily  be 
so.  For,  as  the  purpose  of  punishment  was  in  no  case  the  mere  infliction  of  pain,  or 
gratification  of  personal  vengeance,  but  alone  the  public  good,  by  the  prevention  of 
crimes,  it  might  often  be  as  essential  to  the  public  good  that  treason  should  be  par- 
doned, as  that  it  should  be  punished.  Punishment,  when  inflicted  deliberately  by  ra- 
tional and  reflecting  men,  and  pronounced  by  a  Judge,  as  the  organ  of  the  law,  was 
intended  as  an  example  and  warning,  to  deter  others  fi-om  the  commission  of  the  hke 
offences.  This  was  its  object,  and  the  whole  of  its  legitimate  object:  and  there  was 
not  a  crime  in  the  decalogue,  whether  treason,  murder,  arson,  or  any  other  heinous 
offence,  to  which  there  was  not  authority  in  the  Government  to  extend  the  hand  of 
pardon.  Yet  this  single  crime  was  to  be  made  an  exception  !  The  pursuit  of  notions 
of  honor,  (false  honor,  and  mistalven  notions,  if  gentlemen  would  have  it  so,)  to  which 

98 


778 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


the  young,  the  inexperienced,  and  the  high-spirited,  were  the  most  naturally  exposed; 
this  was  to  be  pronounced  an  offence  for  which  no  mercy  was  to  be  provided  by  any 
authority  in  the  Commonwealth.  Mr.  L.  said,  he  was  not  going  to  impeach  the  policy 
of  the  anti-duelling  law.  He  had  on  that  subject  his  own  fixed  opinions ;  but  they 
were  so  dissented  irom  by  most  of  his  friends,  that  he  should  not  intrude  them  on  the 
Convention,  as  probably  not  more  than  two  or  three  would  be  found  to  concur  with 
him.  He  went  on  the  supposition  that  that  law  was  politic,  just  and  wise.  It  had,  in 
its  practical  operation,  prevailed  in  a  great  degree  to  discourage  tiie  practice  of  duel- 
ling, and  its  operation  would  probably  continue  to  do  so,  until  all  these  notions  of  false 
honor  were  obliterated  from  the  human  heart  and  understanding.  But  Mr.  L.  de- 
manded to  knov/  on  what  principle  it  was  just  and  right,  that  a  boy  of  eighteen,  or  a 
youth  of  twenty  or  tv/enty-one  years  old,  who  felt  that  he  had  been  aggrieved,  who 
was  sensitive  to  the  disgrace  of  an  insult,  (to  him  the  strongest  feeling  in  the  world,) 
and  had  under  such  feelings  called  for  what  he  had  been  taught  to  consider  as 
honorable  satisfaction — whether  he  had  shed  one  single  drop  of  blood  or  no — must  be 
disfranchised?  called  off  from  all  the  paths  of  honorable  ambition,  from  all  hope  of 
distinction  in  the  service  of  his  country,  and  no  reserve  allowed  for  the  possibility  of 
pardon  ?  He  could  conceive  of  a  case,  nay,  he  knew  of  many  cases,  where  youths  of 
the  first  talents,  of  the  highest  integrity,  of  the  truest  honor,  of  the  warmest  patriotism, 
yes,  and  of  the  xeiy  finest  feelings  of  humanity  that  ever  inhabited  the  human  breast, 
had  been  deprived  by  the  existing  law  of  all  place  in  the  public  confidence,  and  all 
hope  of  public  employment.  He  was  not  for  abolishing  the  law.  Let  that  act  remain 
in  the  code ;  its  effects,  though  they  might  be  severe,  were  not  remediless :  a  pardon 
might  be  granted  after  a  term  of  years.  Let  the  man,  v/ho  in  his  heedless  youth  had 
committed  such  an  offence,  but  who  had  afterward,  by  diligent  application,  and  an  un- 
stained course  of  conduct,  prepared  himself  for  every  department  of  the  service  of  the 
State,  be  left  to  the  mercy  of  the  Legislature,  and  let  the  hand  of  pardon  at  length  be 
extended  to  receive  him.  They  were  taught,  on  the  highest  of  all  authority,  that  re- 
pentance won  the  favor  of  Almighty  God ;  and  that  the  penitent  criminal  might  be 
met  by  that  favour,  even  at  the  very  moment  he  was  expiating,  with  his  life,  his  of- 
fences against  the  laws  of  both  God  and  man.  But  this  crime,  arising  from  an  excess, 
or  a  misapprehension  of  true  honor,  was  one  on  which  none  could  look  with  such  hos- 
tility as  to  believe  its  punishment  ought  to  be  absolute,  irremediable,  unending  disfran- 
chisement. Mr.  L.  said,  he  was  very  sure  the  gentleman  from  Patrick  could  not,  and 
did  not,  concur  in  his  own  personal  feelings,  with  the  tone  and  aspect  of  the  resolu- 
tion he  had  offered.  That  gentleman  saw  and  felt,  he  was  well  persuaded,  the  justice 
and  propriety  of  extending  mercy  to  those  who  had  heretofore  been  guilty  of  this  of- 
fence. And  feeling  thus,  how  could  he  think  it  right  to  enact  an  endless  exclusion 
to  all  others  who  should  in  like  manner  offend,  though  they  might  afterwards  atone 
for  the  crime  by  ten,  twenty,  or  thirty  years  of  the  most  useful  and  exemplary  life 
and  deportment All  he  asked  was,  that  the  State  should  act  in  the  same  manner, 
whatever  that  might  be,  toward  those  who  should  offend  thereafter,  as  toward  those 
who  had  offended  theretofore.  The  number,  thus  far,  was  not  large  :  it  was,  compa- 
ratively, very  small — very  small,  indeed.  He  knew  of  but  three  or  four  persons  so 
situated ;  and  in  every  instance,  they  were  persons  who  stood  now  in  such  a  relation 
to  society,  that  every  body — every  body — without  hesitation,  would  say,  that  the  pun- 
ishment ought  to  be  withdrawn. 

Mr.  L.  said,  that  his  attention  had  been  drawn  to  the  subject,  when  he  was  in  the 
Legislature  of  the  State.  A  young  gentleman,  than  whom,  none  ever  possessed  a 
kinder  heart — a  temper  less  disposed  to  injure  any  one — nay,  than  whom,  none  ever 
possessed  more  of  the  milk  of  human  kindness,  toward  the  whole  race,  was  insulted 
grievously.  He  had  himself  been  present,  when  the  insult  was  given,  and  a  more 
unindurable  one,  he  had  never  witnessed  in  his  life ;  and  he  had  resented  it  by  chal- 
lenging the  offender.  He  would  not  say,  that  it  was  right  to  do  so  :  but  this  he  would 
say,  that  at  that  young  man's  time  of  life,  he  should  have  acted  precisely  in  the  same 
way,  or  even  worse.  The  consequence  was,  his  exclusion  from  all  public  affairs  :  and 
the  exclusion  had  embittered  the  residue  of  his  life.  (He  was  now  no  more.)  Why 
was  such  a  young  man  denied  all  hope  of  serving  his  country  ?  What  crime  had  he 
committed .''    He  had  sent  a  challenge.    That  was  his  whole  offence. 

Mr.  L.  concluded,  by  expressing  his  hope,  that  an  amnesty  would  be  extended  to 
all  past  offenders,  and  that  the  Legislature  would  be  left  at  liberty  to  grant  a  similar 
amnesty,  when  it  should,  on  the  whole,  judge  it  to  be  expedient.  That  was  the  true 
and  just  ground  on  which  to  place  the  matter.  Let  it  not  be,  that  in  Virginia,  the 
offence  of  sending  a  chaUcnge,  was  the  only  one  which  could  receive  710  pardon  on 
earth :  while  murder,  treason,  perjury,  and  every  other  possible  crime,  were  placed 
within  the  reach  of  mercy. 

Mr.  Leigh  then  moved  to  amend  the  resolution,  by  striking  out  all  that  part  of  it, 
which  had  a  prospective  operation c 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


779 


Mr.  Naylor  said,  that  the  object  of  the  gentleman  could  easily  be  obtained,  by  an 
amendment  which  he  held  in  his  hand,  and  which  he  should  presently  offer.  He 
felt  great  anxiety,  that  such  a  provision  as  was  proposed,  should  be  introduced  into 
the  Constitution.  His  reasons  were  simple  and  obvious.  He  should  be  very  willing 
to  leave  the  subject  to  Legislative  controul }  but  he  had  often  trembled  for  the  exis- 
tence of  the  present  law,  which  was,  in  its  operation,  so  efficient  and  so  salutary,  and 
which  had,  he  was  confident,  preserved  already  many  valuable  lives  to  the  Republic. 
He  would  call  the  attention  of  the  House,  to  the  very  different  state  of  things,  which 
had  taken  place  since  that  law  had  been  passed,  as  contrasted  with  that  which  had  ex- 
isted previously.  Formerly,  hardly  a  post  arrived,  that  did  not  bring  the  intelligence 
of  the  fall  of  some  promising  young  man,  the  hope  of  his  friends  and  of  his  country. 
These  were  the  very  class  most  exposed  to  be  sacrificed  to  a  false  and  imaginary 
honour.  Yet,  every  Session,  the  most  powerful  efforts  had  been  made  to  repeal  the 
law,  all  founded  on  the  plea,  that  it  was  unconsUhdional.  It  was  to  remove  that  plea 
forever,  that  Mr.  N.  wished  to  see  the  provision  in  the  Constitution.  The  most  pow- 
erful talents  had  been  brought  to  bear  on  the  question,  and  he  feared  lest  some  day 
they  might  succeed.  Make  the  law  constitutional,  and  put  an  end  to  all  doubt  on 
the  subject.  The  law  was  founded  in  the  necessity  of  the  case.  The  evil  had  before 
remained  without  restraint.  The  laws  against  murder  were  virtually  repealed :  and 
no  remedy  seemed  possible,  till  they  resorted  to  one  strong  passion  to  counterbalance 
the  force  of  another.  The  passion  which  led  men  to  pursue  the  phantom — honour — 
(not  always  a  phantom,  but  such,  certainly,  in  the  bloody  field  of  the  duellist) — could 
only  be  met  and  counteracted  by  that  equally  strong  passion,  which  led  men  to  seek 
distinction  in  public  life  :  and,  happily,  both  passions  usually  inhabited  the  same  breast. 
Few  fell  in  duels,  but  such  as  looked  forward  to  the  possession  of  office  in  some  form: 
and  many  such  were  eminently  fitted  to  serve  their  country  in  public  stations. 

Mr.  N.  offered  his  amendment,  but  withdrew  and  m.odified  it,  so  as  to  appear  in  the 
following  form : 

Resolved,  That  a  provision  ought  to  be  inserted  in  the  Constitution,  declaratory  of 
the  constitutionality  of  the  act  of  the  General  Assembly,  entitled an  act  to  suppress 
duelling;"  but  extending  a  general  pardon  to  all  offenders  ag?anstthe  provisions  of  the 
act,  up  to  the  present  period." 

Mr.  Leigh,  who  had  at  first  agreed  to  withdraw  his  motion  to  strike  out,  after  the 
amendment  had  been  modified,  renew^ed  it.  His  object  was  to  secure  an  amnesty,  up 
to  the  present  time,  and  to  leave  the  entire  subject  to  the  Legislature  as  to  the  future. 

^Mr.  Stuart  said,  that  he  believed  it  to  be  universally  agreed,  that  duelling  was  a  per- 
nicious and  barbarous  practice,  and  ought  to  be  suppressed.  He  united  in  the  opinion 
which  had  been  expressed,  as  to  the  salutary  operation  of  the  statute  on  the  subject; 
and  believed,  that  but  for  the  doubt  which  had  been  started,  as  to  its  constitutionality, 
that  law  would,  by  this  time,  have  succeeded  in  wholly  suppressing  the  practice.  But, 
so  long  as  the  Legislature  should  be  clothed  with  power  to  pardon'^duellists,  the  prac- 
tice would  continue  to  prevail.  He  wished  to  shut  the  door  eftectually  against  it. 
The  object  of  his  resolution  was  prevention,  not  punishment.  His  hope  was,  that 
public  opinion  would  gradually  be  corrected.  If  children  were  to  be  educated  under 
the  idea  that  to  send  or  accept  a  challenge  would  disqualify  a  man  for  all  objects  of 
ambition,  they  would  be  free  from  much 'of  the  temptation  of  committing  that  offence. 
But  they  had  formerly  been  tauglit  that  they  were  bound  to  resent  an  insult,  and  that 
fighting  a  duel  set  a  seal  on  them  as  men  of  honour  and  men  of  courage.  No  won- 
der, that  such  a  persuasion  should  exert  a  powerful  effect  on  young  and  ardent  minds, 
Mr.  S.  said  he  saw  no  necessity  for  any  constitutional  amnesty.  If  that  was  all  that 
to  be  left  in  the  resolution ;  he  should  prefer  leaving  the  whole  subject  to  the  Le- 
gislature. _  If  pardon  was  to  be  provided  by  the  Constitution,  each  offender  would  be- 
lieve that  if  he  fought  he  should  certainly  be  pardoned,  because  the  circumstances  of 
his  case  were  so  strong  that  the  Legislature  never  could  resist  them :  and  thus  the 
salutary  effect  of  the  statute  v/ould  be  destroyed.  There  Avould  be  danger,  too.  of 
favoritism  :  young  men  of  family,  personally  known  to  the  Legislature,  and  allied  to 
some  of  the  members,  would  readily  be  excused,  while  others  more  obscure,  though 
not  more  guilty,  would  fall  under  the  full  operation  of  the  law.  He  wished  to  see  all 
put  upon  one  level ;  and  let  all  know  that  if  they  would  thus  offend  against  society, 
they  must  be  forever  excluded  from  its  employment  in  any  public  station.  He  could 
not  agree  to  either  of  the  amendments  proposed ;  he  thought  they  would  provide  no 
effectual  check  to  the  evil.  He  was  opposed  to  allowing  any  amnesty,  unless  the 
residue  of  his  resolution  should  also  be  adopted. 

Mr.  M"Coy  said,  that  he  felt  reluctance  at  voting  for  any  constitutional  provision 
on  this  subject.  He  believed  much  good  had  been  done  by  the  law.  But  it  seemed 
to  him  that  unless  the  neigbouring  States,  and  other  nations  too,  would  all  agree  to 
niake  similar  provisions  in  "their  Constitutions,  it  would  be  placing  the  people  of  Vir- 
ginia in  a  very  humiliating  condition.  They  would  be  liable  to  be  insulted  with  im- 
punity by  the  citizens  of  all  the  neighbouring  States  and  of  all  surrounding  nations. 


780 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


He  thought  the  matter  ought  to  be  left  to  tlie  Legislature.  Let  them  repeal  their 
statute,  if  they  pleased.  Let  them  grant  pardons,  if  they  pleased.  It  seemed  hard 
that  Virginians  must  bear  the  insults  of  all  that  chose  to  insult  them,  and  have  their 
hands  tied.  He  liked  to  see  the  citizens  of  their  State  put  upon  an  equal  footing  with 
the  citizens  of  other  States.  He  could  not  vote  for  the  resolution.  The  law  had 
done  good  at  home ;  but  it  had  had  an  unhappy  effect  on  the  citizens  of  Virginia  else- 
where. He  knew  that  some  gentlemen  had  felt  its  effects  in  a  very  painful  manner 
as  it  related  to  the  citizens  of  other  States.  He  was  for  striking  out  all  but  the 
amnesty. 

Mr.  Wilson  of  Monongalia,  wished  to  offer  an  observation  or  two  in  reply  to  the 
gentleman  from  Pendleton.  That  gentleman  thought  that  the  adoption  of  the  reso- 
lution would  place  the  people  of  Virginia  in  a  humiliating  attitude.  The  matter  ap- 
peared to  him  in  a  very  different  light.  It  seemed  to  him,  that  in  adopting  such  a 
measure,  Virginia  was  leading  the  van  in  an  attempt  to  put  down  an  odious  practice, 
which  had  originated  in  barbarous  ages,  and  in  defence  of  which  no  good  reason 
whatever  could  be  adduced  :  in  so  doing,  he  thouglit,  she  had  acquired  more  immortal 
honour  than  by  all  her  other  achievments.  So  far  from  being  sunk  or  humiliated,  in 
his  view  she  was  elevated  as  a  State.  The  gentleman  seemed  to  suppose  that  Vir- 
ginians would  be  placed  in  a  degrading  situation,  and  be  exposed  to  the  insults  of  the 
citizens  of  other  States  and  nations,  unless  they  were  allowed  to  resort  to  the  pistol 
or  the  sword.  He  was  not  of  that  opinion.  Let  a  provision  be  introduced  into  the 
Constitution,  which  would  stamp  the  seal  of  perpetual  disfranchisement  on  all  who 
would  fight  a  duel — then  let  the  citizen  of  another  State  insult  him,  and  he  would 
look  down  upon  such  a  man  with  contempt.  He  should  say  to  such  a  man,  "  You 
must  be  a  coward  :  you  know  that  I  cannot  resent  your  behaviour  by  challenging  you 
without  blasting  forever  all  my  hopes  and  prospects  in  Virginia — your  insult  recoils 
upon  yourself— it  is  you  that  are  the  dastard,  not  I." 

Mr.  M'Coy  said  in  reply,  that  if  public  opinion  did  not  remedy  this  evil,  nothing 
that  they  could  do  would  avail  to  prevent  it.  The  gentleman's  observation  reminded 
him  of  the  Quakers,  He  should  incline  a  good  deal  to  be  a  Quaker,  but  they  would 
not  fight.  Now,  if  all  other  nations  would  adopt  the  same  plan  ;  if  they  would  all 
agree  to  do  away  with  wars  and  fighting,  then  he  should  turn  Quaker.  But,  unless 
all  the  other  States  of  the  Union,  and  all  other  nations  would  agree  to  the  bargain, 
he  would  not  consent  to  put  this  clause  into  the  Constitution.  The  gentleman  from 
Monongalia  had  reasoned  well.  He  entirely  agreed  with  him  that  the  man  who 
would  insult  a  Virginian,  whose  hands  were  tied,  must  be  a  dastard.  But  the  worst 
of  it  was,  there  would  always  be  such  dastards.  He  was  willing  to  leave  the  matter 
with  the  Legislature,  where  it  now  was.  Let  the  law  do  as  much  good  as  it  could. 
But  the  law  would  never  remedy  the  evil,  unless  public  opinion  went  with  the  law. 
He  believed  the  practice  was  going  down  fast.  By  putting  this  provision  in  the  Con- 
stitution, he  queraed  whether  they  should  not  do  more  evil  than  good. 

Mr.  Stanard  said,  he  hoped  there  would  be  no  constitutional  provision  on  the' sub- 
ject. He  was  willing  to  leave  it  with  the  Legislature,  and  to  remove  the  doubts,  if 
any  existed,  as  to  the  authority  of  that  body  to  act  upon  it.  It  would  be  very  easy 
to  do  so  :  and  with  that  view  he  moved  to  insert,  between  the  word  Resolved,''  and 
the  words  which  immediately  followed  it,  these  words  :  "  That  the  Legislature  shall 
have  power  to  declare  by  law,"  so  as  to  make  the  whole  resolution  read : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Legislature  shall  have  power  to  declare  by  law,  that  no  person 
shall  be  capable  of  holding  or  being  elected  to  any  post  of  profit,  trust,  or  emolument, 
civil  or  military,  under  the  government  of  this  Commonwealth,  who  shall  hereafter 
fight  a  duel,  or  send  or  accept  a  challenge,  to  fight  a  duel,  the  probable  issue  of  which 
may  or  might  be  the  death  of  the  challenger  or  challenged,  or  who  shall  be  second  to 
either  party,  or  shall  in  any  manner  aid  or  assist  in  such  duel,  or  shall  be  knowingly 
the  bearer  of  such  challenge  or  acceptance.  But,  no  person  shall  be  so  disqualified 
by  reason  of  his  having  heretofore  fought  such  duel,  or  sent  or  accepted  such  chal- 
lenge, or  been  second  in  such  duel,  or  been  the  bearer  of  such  challenge  or  acceptance." 

Mr.  Gordon  said,  that  during  the  time  he  had  been  in  the  Legislature  he  had  never 
heard  the  question  started  as  to  the  constitutionality  of  the  statute,  but  only  as  to  the 
constitutionality  of  that  part  of  it  which  applied  to  members  of  the  Assembly,  and 
which  went  to  add  another  qualification  to  membership,  beyond  those  which  the  Con- 
stitution laid  down. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  that  he  had  heard  some  of  the  ablest  arguments  he  ever  had 
heard  in  the  Assembly  in  support  of  the  idea  which  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle 
said  he  had  never  heard  broached  there.  He  had  been  present  on  two  different  occa- 
sions when  an  application  had  been  made  for  pardon,  and  he  had  resisted  both  appli- 
cations, with  a  firm  determination,  if  possible,  to  cause  the  statute  to  re-act  on  pubhc 
opinion.  He  had  voted  with  a  heavy  heart.  He  had  heard  the  argument  the  gen- 
tleman from  Albemarle  said  he  had  never  heard,  and  that  from  able  lips,  in  the  case 
referred  to  by  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield.    He  should  consider  it  a  blessing  to 


DEBATES   OF  THE   CONVENTION.  -70^1 

have  ail  doubts  of  a  constitutional  kind  removed  from  the  act,  and  to  see  the  law  and 
public  opinion  moving  harmoniously  together. 

Mr.  Stuart  objected  to  Mr.  Stanard's  amendment,  as  not  being  imperative,  but  per- 
missory  only.  If  it  was  only  said,  that  the  Legislature  might  pass  such  a  statute,  then 
they  might  also  repeal  it  again.  He  wished  the  provision  to  be  permanent,  and,  there- 
fore, he  would  make  it  Constitutional. 

Mr.  Gordon  again  declared,  that  he  had  never  heard  the  opinion  advanced  in  the 
Legislature,  that  the  anti-duelling  act  was  unconstitutional  in  its  application  to  offi- 
cers of  the  Commonwealth  other  than  members  of  Assembly.  His  friend  from  Hano- 
ver, (looking  to  Mr.  Morris.)  would  be  able  to  support  him  in  this  view.  That 
gentleman  had  made  an  able  report  on  the  subject,  but  the  votes  of  the  Assembly  had 
been  equally  divided,  and  it  was  not  adopted.  The  Session  following,  the  constitu- 
tional question  had  been  given  up,  and  the  opposition  was  grounded  on  considerations 
of  expediency. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  that  his  recollections  corresponded  exactly  with  the  statement  of 
the  gentleman  from  Albemarle.  He  had  been  himself  the  first  to  start  the  question  as 
to  the  constitutionality  of  the  law.  Judge  Roane  had  been  asked  his  opinion,  and 
had  declared  that  the  law  would  not  apply  to  the  case  of  Thompson ;  but  the  under- 
standing was,  that  he  considered  it  as  unconstitutional,  so  far  as  it  applied  to  members 
of  the  Assembly.    iSlr.  L.  said  he  should  vote  for  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Stanard. 

Mr.  Morris  said,  that  the  gentleman  from  Brooke,  jNIr.  Doddridge,  had  been  longer 
in  the  Legislature  than  he  had ;  but  for  himself  he  could  say  that  he  had  never  heard 
it  questioned,  but  the  Legislature  might  annex  such  a  test  as  was  required  by  the  anti- 
duelling  law  to  the  tenure  of  office  when  the  qualifications  were  presented  by  the 
Constitution.  In  the  case  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  referred  to,  the  unconsti- 
tutionality was  held  to  apply  only  where  no  qualifications  were  required  by  the  Consti- 
tution. But,  the  gentleman  was  certainly  mistaken  as  to  the  Legislature's  having  been 
equally  divided :  the  gentleman  and  liimself  had  been  able  to  get  no  more  than  forty- 
five  votes. 

Mr.  Doddridge  said,  they  were  all  agreed,  that  a  doubt  had  been  argued  as  to  th& 
constitutionality  of  the  law.  This  was  what  he  referred  to.  Possibly  he  had  not 
heard  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  correctly. 

Mr.  Madison  said,  that  the  amendment  would  avoid  the  recognition  of  the  general 
power  of  disfranchisement,  as  residing  in  the  Legislature.  He  recollected,  that  after 
the  suppression  of  Shay's  rebellion,  an  attempt  had  been  made  in  the  Legislature  oF 
Massachusetts,  to  disfranchise  all  who  had  united  in  that  insurrection.  In  high  party 
times,  such  a  power  would  be  extremely  dangerous.  To  allow  this  power  in  a  par- 
ticular case,  was  one  thing;  to  grant  it  in  all  cases,  was  a  very  different  thing.  All 
he  wished  was,  to  avoid  recognizing  in  the  Legislature  any  general  power  of  dis- 
franchisement. 

Mr.  Stanard  said,  he  was  greatly  encouraged  by  the  approbation  of  the  venerable 
gentleman  from  Orange.  If  the  amendment  had  the  effect  of  fettering  the  power  of 
the  Legislature  in  all  other  cases,  tliis  was  of  itself  a  strong  inducement  to  agree  ta 
the  amendment. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  there  was  one  part  of  the  resolution,  in  which  he  felt  much  inter- 
est. It  had  been  said,  that  the  Legislature  had  power  to  superadd  to  the  quahfica- 
tions  for  office,  where  qualifications  were  required  by  the  Constitution,  and  to  pre- 
scribe them  when  the  Constitution  had  prescribed  none.  He  had  always  thought  this 
a  great  defect  in  the  existing  Constitution.  Certainly,  where  no  quahfication  was 
laid  down  by  the  Constitution,  they  could  not  rightfully  be  prescribed  by  the  Legisla- 
ture ;  and  when  the  Constitution  had  prescribed  them,  the  Legislature  had  no  right  to 
extend  the  constitutional  requirement.  If  the  Constitution  declared,  that  in  order 
to  be  eligible  to  the  office  of  Governor,  a  man  should  possess  such  and  such  qualifi- 
cations, he  who  possessed  them  ought  to  be  eligible,  and  the  Legislature  could  not 
require  any  thing  more,  by  any  act  of  its  own.  If  there  was  any  doubt  on  this  sub- 
ject, the  Constitution  ought  to  put  an  end  to  it.  He  considered  it  a  dangerous  doc- 
trine to  maintain  otherwise. 

Mr.  Randolph  addressed  the  House :  I  submit  to  the  venerable  gentleman  from 
Orange — and  to  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania,  whether  the  argument  of  the 
gentleman  from  Orange,  is  such  as  ought  to  have  so  deep  an  effect  on  the  gentleman 
from  Spottsylvania,  and  whether  it  be  not  in  truth  destructive  of  the  adoption  of  the 
amendment  of  that  gentleman.  I  have  thought  a  great  deal  on  this  subject,  and 
though  it  does  not  become  me  to  question  the  motives  of  the  Legislature  of  Virginia — 
yet  1  do  verily  believe  that  the  anti-duelling  act  is  in  utter  subversion  of  every  fun- 
damental principle  of  free  Government.  I  submit  to  the  gentleman  from  Spottsyl- 
vania whether  impowering  the  Legislature  to  visit  on  one  description  of  offences  this 
most  odious  of  all  punishments,  disfranchisement,  be  any  denial  to  the  Legislature  of 
the  power  to  extend  it  whithersoever  they  shall  please  ^  I  ask  the  gentleman  from 
Spottsylvania,  on  what  principle  the  Legislature  has  arrogated  to  itself  the  power  to 


782 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


interpose  in  this  manner,  on  this  behalf,  which  will  not  imply  a  similar  power  to  in- 
terpose in  the  same  manner,  on  any  other  behalf?  The  evils  of  such  a  principle  have 
long  been  foreseen,  by  minds  infinitely  less  strong  and  less  clear  than  that  of  the 
gentleman  from  Orange.    It  strikes  at  once  at  the  root  of  ail  free  Government. 

Mr.  President,  it  has  been  my  misfortune  to  have  lived  in  an  age  of  fanaticism 
and  cant.  And  I  would  go  to  the  uttermost  ends  of  the  earth  to  find  a  refuge,  if 
there  be  one,  from  this  spirit  of  fanaticism  and  this  spirit  of  cant.  Sir,  why  not  at 
once  embody  the  entire  decalogue  ?  Aye  and  the  whole  Bible — Old  and  New  Testa- 
ments— and  a  system  of  philosophy  into  the  bargain — and  gulph  down  the  whole  at 
one  oath  ?  The  power  is  the  same.  The  principle  is  the  same.  Sir,  do  you  not  be- 
lieve— nay — do  you  not  know — that  there  are  persons  in  this  Assembly,  who  believe 
in  their  consciences,  that  to  hold  a  human  being  in  bondage  is  a  crime  of  the  blackest 
die,  not  a  whit  inferior  to  murder  itself.?  This  spirit  of  fanaticism  is  spreading — and 
it  is  one  of  the  strongest  feelings  that  exists  among  men,  when  once  it  gets  the  upper 
hand.  Suppose  it  should  choose  to  prescribe  an  oath,  that  a  man  never  had  held,  and 
never  would  hold  a  human  being  in  bondage — and  this  on  pain  of  disqualification 
from  all  offices  under  the  Commonwealth  ?  Is  not  that  an  offence  as  much  in  the  teeth 
of  the  Bill  of  Rights,  and  of  the  great  and  sweeping  principles  it  lays  down,  as  to  all 
men  being  by  nature  equally  free.?  Then,  conceive  to  yourself  a  Wilberforce,  or  a 
Master  Stephen,  setting  forth  before  the  House  of  Burgesses,  the  horrors  of  this  op- 
pressive, this  unjust,  thi^  nefarious,  this  bloody,  this  cruel,  this  an ti- christian  practice, 
of  holding  men  and  women  in  bondage.  Sir,  no  matter  to  Vv^hat  point  it  blows,  this 
tornado  of  fanaticism  sweeps  all  before  it.  Mr.  President,  was  there  ever  a  Constitu- 
tion on  earth  that  gave  the  Legislature  power  to  punish  particular  offences  in  a  par- 
ticular manner  ?  Is  it  not  an  anomaly  ?  Was  such  a  thing  ever  heard  of  in  any  nation, 
civilized,  or  uncivilized  ?  In  Christendom,  or  Heathennesse  ?  Leave  this  whole  matter 
where  it  is. — Sir,  I  am  not  so  much  surpi-ised  at  seeing  some  men  taking  this  course. 
But  when  I  see  men  for  whose  characters  I  feel  the  most  profound  respect,  lending 
themselves  to  a  particular  purpose,  at  the  expense  of  the  great  fundamental  princi- 
ples of  free  Government,  what  am  I  to  think  ?  Sir,  the  Convention  have  no  right  to 
put  any  such  clause  into  the  Constitution.  As  was  very  truly  observed,  they  have  the 
power  to  do  it ;  but  they  have  not  the  right,  nor  a  shadow  of  right.  Why  single  out 
this  particular  class  of  offences.?  The  traitor,  who  has  plotted  the  re-introduction  of 
the  Tarquins  into  the  Capitol,  he  is  not  pronounced  unpardonable  :  you  do  not  tender 
to  hhn  an  oath  that  he  has  never  plotted  to  overturn  your  Government — he  is  not  to 
be  put  to  the  torture  by  an  oath — but  your  oath  is  in  the  very  spirit  of  the  Spanish 
Inquisition — it  puts  the  man  of  virtue  only  to  the  torture,  and  passes  over  the  ruf" 
fian  and  assassin.  It  offers  a  premium  for  cowardice — a  premium  for  falsehood — a 
premium  for  servility — a  premium  for  slander — a  premium  for  all  that  is  base  and  ab- 
ject in  human  character. 

Sir,  I  have  no  hesitation  in  saying  with  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  that 
place  a  man's  honour  in  one  scale,  and  all  the  offices  in  the  gift  of  King  or  Keisar  in 
the  other,  and  a  man  of  honour  would  spurn  them  all  in  comparison  with  his  violated 
feelings  and  his  violated  reputation.  Never  was  there  such  a  test  attempted  under 
the  sun — never  at  least  in  any  Government  that  arrogated  to  itself  the  character  of  a 
free  Republic.  This  is  the  entering  wedge.  Admit  the  principle,  and  you  may  go 
on  allowing  one  party  to  proscribe  the  other,  until  at  length  both  the  great  parties  in 
your  State  will  find  themselves  out  of  the  pale  of  the  Constitution.  Sir,  I  have 
nothing  more  to  say.  If  the  people  are  disposed  to  submit  to  tyrannical  laws  imposed 
on  them  by  their  own  Legislature,  let  them  do  it. 

Mr.  Stanard  said,  that  every  argument  of  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte  went  to 
give  a  preference  to  the  amendment  over  the  original  text,  howmuchsoever  it  might 
be  against  that  text  itself.  The  gentleman  from  Charlotte  enquired  whether,  on  the 
principle  of  the  anti-duelling  law,  the  Legislature  might  not  extend  the  same  disqua- 
lification to  the  other  offences  against  morals,  or  offences  against  party,  or  offences 
against  religion,  or  against  fanaticism.?  He  answered — yes,  and  that  was  the  most 
powerful  argument  against  the  existence  of  the  statute,  as  being  an  example  for  fu- 
ture imitation.  But  strong  as  might  be  the  argument  against  the  principle  of  the  law, 
and  cogent  as  might  be  the  objection,  that  it  furnished  a  precedent  for  extending  that 
principle  to  other  things,  and  thereby  produce  all  the  consequences  which  the  gen- 
tleman apprehended,  yet  did  not  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte  perceive  that  it  was 
the  very  function  of  the  amendment,  by  implication,  to  prevcnt^such  an  extension  of 
the  principle.?  to  fetter  the  power!  To  give  it  in  one  case,  and  in  one  case  only.? 
And  thereby  to  prevent  fanaticism  from  extending  it  to  any  other .?  To  limit  the  power 
of  the  Legislature .?  So  that  it  should  not  disfranchise  men  for  other  classes  of  offen- 
ces .?  He  understood  that  the  grant  of  one  power  was,  in  every  sound  principle  of 
construction,  a  negation  of  all  others  not  granted. 

[Mr.  Randolph— not  in  practice.] 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION, 


783 


Mr.  S.-said.  he  did  not  speak  of  irregular  and  unauthorised  exertions  of  authority— 
for,  against  them  it  was  impossible  to  guard  by  any  written  law.  This  was  the  con- 
seque7ice  dreaded — nay,  the  effort  had  already  been  made  to  extend  the  principle  to 
other  cases  under  the  influence  of  that  fanaticism  and  cant  of  which  the  gentleman 
had  spoken.  [Mr.  Randolph — very  probable,  Sir.]  But  the  operation  of  the  amend- 
ment would  be  to  preclude  all  other  attempts  of  the  kind. 

The  gentleman  had  asked,  whether  there  ever  had  been  in  the  whole  world  such 
an  experiment  made,  as  to  apply  the  action  of  the  Constitution  to  one  individual 
species  of  crime  ?  The  gentleman  must  surely  forget  that  in  the  very  Constitution 
the  Convention  was  about  to  maiie,  there  was  a  svreeping  clause,  in  that  part  of  it 
which  treated  of  the  P».ight  of  Suffrage,  w-hich  disfranchised  at  one  blow  all  who  had 
been  convicted  of  any  infamous  crime  :  they  were  all,  without  an  exception,  abso- 
lutely and  forever,  deprived  of  the  right  to  vote.  Which  was  the  more  extraordinary 
of  tlie  two,  that  the  Constitution  should  empower  the  Legislature  to  disfranchise  for 
one  particular  kind  of  offence,  or  that  the  Constitution  should,  itself,  disfranchise  for 
a  whole  list  of  offences :  Yet,  such  was  the  fact.  It  did  disfrancliise,  for  all  tune, 
those  who  should  have  been  convicted  of  "  any  infamous  offence.'" 

The  one,  surely,  was  a  more  mitigated  form  of  authority  than  the  other.  The  ar- 
gument of  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte  did  not  apply  to  the  competing  question  be- 
tween the  amendment  and  the  resolution.  And  if  the  amendment  should  be  agreed 
to,  his  other  argument  would  not  apply,  because  granting  povrer  in  this  one  isolated 
case  would  be  a  negation  of  the  power  in  all  other  cases. 

Mr.  S.  said,  he  had  no  great  solicitude  on  the  subject,  except  as  to  the  granting  of 
an  amnesty  to  past  offenders.  He  earnestly  hoped  the  Convention  would  not  rise 
without  agreeing  to  a  provision  of  that  kind.  The  offence  had  been  committed  in  al- 
most every  case  by  young  men  reared  and  fostered  in  principles  not  now^  so  general 
as  at  that  time — principles,  which  they  had  imbibed  as  honourable  before  any  change 
had  taken  place  in  public  opinion :  they  had  in  consequence  been  disfrancliised  : 
many  of  them  belonged  to  the  most  respectable  part  of  the  community  :  yet,  they 
were  the  objects  of  perpetual  reproach:  and  being  now  beyond  the  range  of  hope 
and  of  ambition,  were  exposed  to  the  temptation  of  renewing  the  offence, 

Mr.  Randolph  said,  that  the  gentleman  must  perceive  at  once,  that  in  the  case  to 
wiiich  he  had  referred,  the  House  had  been  settling  the  qualifications  which  should 
entitle  a  man  to  exercise  the  Right  of  Suffrage.  Now,  what  assignable  relation, 
asked  Mr.  R.,  can  the  locrical  mind  of  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania  see  between 
an  organic  law,  setthng  the  question  as  to  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  as  to  which,  in  the 
nature  of  the  case,  some  must  be  disqualified  (or  the  term  quahfication  can  have  no 
meaning.)  and  such  a  proposition  as  that  now  offered  to  the  House  ^  It  is  unnecessary 
that  I  should  point  out  tlie  difference.  1  hope  I  shall  not  be  understood  as  entering 
at  all  into  the  question  of  the  moral  or  the  legal  turpitude  of  duelling :  whether  it  is 
77iahaii  171  se,  OT  malum  prohihiiuvi  only.  With  that  question  I  have  nothing  to  do. 
My  business  is  with  a  provision  in  the  Constitution  for  handhng  a  particular  offence. 
According  to  the  opinion  of  some  it  is  malum  in  se :  base — flagitious.  If  it  be  so, 
proceed  against  the  offender  as  you  would  against  a  murderer,  an  incendiary,  a  viola- 
tor of  female  virginity ;  as  you  do  against  all  other  terrible  offenders.  Proceed 
against  him  accordmg  to  the  principles  of  free  Government,  the  principles  of  Magna 
Charta,  and  of  all  your  Constitutions.  Carry  him  before  the  grand  jury — then  place 
him  before  a  petit  jury,  convict  him  according  to  law,  and  then  inflict  your  infamous 
punishment  and  disqualify  him  :  do  this  ;  if  such  be  your  rage  and  your  fanaticism; 
but  in  God's  name,  do  it  according  to  the  forms  of  justice  which  have  been  established 
as  much  for  the  protection  of  the  innocent,  as  for  the  punishment  of  the  guilty. 
What  I  object  to  is,  that  you  shall  single  out  one  particular  species  of  offence,  and 
deal  with  that  not  according  to  the  principles  and  spirit  of  your  Constitution.  In 
some  of  the  State  Constitutions,  it  is  wisely  declared,  that  there-shall  be  no  cruel  or 
miusual  punishments  enacted  :  but  disfranchisement  is  a  punishment  both  unusual 
and  cruel.  All  I  ask  is,  not  to  make  a  favoured  class  of  traitors,  murderers,  house- 
burners,  thieves  and  forgers,  and  give  them  the  benefit  of  all  the  forms  of  the  Con- 
stitution, while  you  take  them  away  from  another  class,  of  whom  your  hearts,  if  not 

desperately  wicked,"  are  at  least  deceitful  above  all  things,"  when  you  say  you 
think  they  are  so  very  infamous.  I  want  to  know  to  what  man  of  wealth  and  of  ta- 
lents, and  with  no  blot  on  his  escutcheon  hut  this,  any  among  you  would  refuse  the 
hand  of  a  daughter  or  a  sister?  It  is  in  vain  to  talk.  Public  opinion  is  the  other  way. 
You  will  vote  for  a  man  who  has  fought  a  duel,  for  President  of  the  United  States, 
and  then  you  come  back  here  and  gravely  declare  that  no  such  man  shall  be  a  mem- 
ber of  that  august  and  illustrious  assembly,  the  House  of  Burgesses  !  Sir,  it  is  over- 
shooting the  mai'k.  In  the  words  of  an  eloquent  British  civilian,  it  is  attempting 
rigidly  to  screw  up  right  into  wrong :"  yes.  Sir,  every  such  provision  is  nothing  else 
but  an  attempt  rigidly  to  screw  up  right  into  wrong.  Sumrnum  jus,  summa  injuria.  It 
is  a  sanctimonious  sort  of  republicanism  not  to  my  taste — not  at  all.    Give  me  the 


784 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


good  ancient  republicanism — and  let  it  not  be  said,  that  in  proportion  as  we  receded 
tirom  our  colonial  state,  we  departed  from  the  true  principles  of  freemen.  Give  me 
none  of  this  putting  men  to  tlie  question,  ordinary  and  extraordinary — this  putting  a 
man  on  his  oath  to  declare  what  he  has  done  and  what  he  has  not  done.  Sir,  I  would 
not  believe  such  a  man :  I  would  not  believe  him  upon  his  oath. 

Mr.  Naylor  rose  in  reply :  Could  he  believe  that  this  measure  had  its  origin  in  fana- 
ticism or  cant,  he  should  be  the  first  to  repel  it.  But  so  far  from  this,  if  he  had  been 
brought  up  in  the  faith  of  the  heathen  mythology,  he  should  still  think  that  such  a 
measure  was  dictated  by  sound  policy.  If  it  was  sound  policy  to  preserve  the  best 
blood  of  the  land — to  cherish  the  ripest  hopes  of  the  republic — to  prevent  scenes  which, 
whenever  they  occurred,  shrouded  the  face  of  society  in  mourning — if  this  was  sound 
policy,  and  one  of  the  most  sacred  duties  of  a  statesman,  the  measure  which  was  es- 
sayed as  a  means  of  accomplishing  it,  was  not  the  offspring  of  cant,  fanaticism,  and 
religious  hypocricy.  The  gentleman  from  Charlotte  had  asked,  why  single  out  this 
particular  offence,  and  make  it  the  object  of  so  severe  a  punishment.?  His  answer 
was,  that  desperate  diseases  called  for  desperate  remedies.  Other  remedies  had  been 
tried  in  vain.  Nothing  but  this  would  reach  the  case.  The  law  against  murder  had 
been  virtually  repealed.  It  was  in  vain  to  talk  about  grand  juries,  petit  juries :  where 
was  the  case  in  which  a  man  was  convicted  for  murder  committed  in  a  duel.?  The 
law  was  nugatory.  Was  it  cant,  under  such  circumstances,  to  apply  to  some  other 
remedy  to  save  the  lives  of  valuable  citizens.?  A  law  was  to  be  judged  by  its  good 
or  bad  consequences.  The  gentleman  was  a  great  advocate  for  the  doctrine  of  expe- 
diency, and  much  opposed  to  men's  standing  on  abstract  rights.  Test  this  measure 
by  his  own  principles.  Had  more  good  or  more  evil  flowed  from  the  enactment  of 
the  Statute  .?  And  was  more  good  or  more  evil  likely  to  follow  the  securing  it  by  a 
constitutional  provision .?  That  good  had  been  produced  by  the  law,  he  had  heard 
none  deny.  And  where  would  be  the  evil  of  the  constitutional  provision  ?  A  hot- 
blooded  young  man  would  not  be  able  to  challenge  his  adversary  (often  his  bosom 
friend)  to  the  field. 

Mr.  N.  said,  he  was  as  proud  of  the  chivalrous  feelings  of  Virginia,  as  any  of  her 
Bons :  but  he  did  not  wish  to  see  them  displayed  in  such  a  field. 

But  was  there  no  other  case  "singled  out?"  Had  not  the  Convention  deprived 
Clergymen  of  a  seat  in  the  Legislature  ?  Was  not  that  case  quite  as  peculiar  as  this  ? 
They  would  exclude  Clergymen,  because  they  followed  a  calling  for  which  all  men 
felt  or  professed  to  feel  some  respect,  and  yet  it  was  all  cant  and  fanaticism  to  exclude 
from  the  same  seat  the  duellist  who  had  shed,  or  sought  to  shed,  the  blood  of  his  fel- 
low-man. He  thought  that  when  the  good  and  bad  consequences  of  any  measure 
were  weighed,  and  the  good  was  found  to  preponderate,  it  ought  to  be  rendered  per- 
manent. The  people  he  was  confident  desired  the  disqualification  to  continue :  and 
as  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Stanard  accomplished  all  the  object  he  had  had  in  view,  he 
was  content  to  waive  his  own  amendment,  and  should  vote  for  that  of  the  gentleman 
from  Spottsylvania. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  that  he  understood  the  question  at  present  to  be  as  to  the  preference 
between  the  resolution  with,  and  without,  the  amendment.  He  preferred  the  resolu- 
tion with  the  amendment,  and  he  should  vote  accordingly.  If  afterward  the  House 
chose  to  strike  out  the  whole,  except  the  amnesty,  it  would  be  competent  for  them 
to  do  so. 

The  question  was  now  put  on  Mr.  Stanard's  amendment,  and  decided  in  the  afRr- 
rrtative,  without  a  count. 

So  the  amendment  was  adopted. 

Mr.  Leigh  now  moved  to  strike  out  the  resolution  as  amended,  retaining  only  that 
portion  of  it  which  related  to  an  amnesty. 

The  reason  for  this  motion,  he  said,  he  had  already  assigned,  and  the  gentleman 
from  Charlotte  much  better  than  himself,  and  therefore  he  should  not  trouble  the 
House  with  any  remarks  in  support  of  it. 

Mr.  Naylor  demanded  that  the  question  be  taken  by  ayes  and  noes,  and  it  was  so 
ordered. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke  said,  that  he  should  not  enter  into  the  discussion,  but  had 
risen  merely  to  assign  the  reasons  why  he  should  vote  against  striking  out.  He  had 
no  wish  to  visit  with  punishment  this  class  of  evil-doers  more  than  others,  (and  most 
of  the  arguments  against  the  resolution  had  been  grounded  on  such  an  idea,)  but  he 
supported  the  measure  as  a  means  of  prevention.  He  considered  it  as  the  best  pre- 
ventive of  one  of  the  most  barbarous  crimes  of  the  age. 

Mr.  Venable  desired  the  question  to  be  divided,  so  as  first  to  be  taken  on  so  much 
of  the  resolution  as  had  no  relation  to  the  test  oath,  separately,  and  then  on  the  clause 
which  prescribed  such  oath. 

The  question  was  so  divided,  accordingly;  and  being  put,  first,  on  the  former  por- 
tion of  the  resolution, 

Mr.  Cabell  moved  an  indefinite  postponement  of  the  whole  subject. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


785 


Mr.  Leigh  enquired,  if  the  gentleman  wished  the  amnesty  to  be  included  m  his 
motion  .- 

Mr.  Cabell  said,  he  -vras  fully  persuaded  the  object  of  the  gentleman  from  Chester- 
field was  unattainable,  and  that  the  attempt  to  attain  it  vrould  only  be  a  waste  of  time. 
But  as  it  was  now  suggested  to  him  by  a  friend,  that  the  motion  he  had  made  was 
exposed  to  the  same  objection,  and  was  likely  only  to  waste  the  time  of  the  House, 
he  would  consent  to  withdraw  it.    And  he  withdrew  it  accordingly. 

The  ayes  and  noes  were  then  called  on  the  first  pai-t  of  Mr.  Leigh's  motion,  viz  :  to 
strike  out  all  that  part  of  the  resolution  which  preceded  the  oath,  and  they  stood  as 
follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield.  Giles,  Drom- 
goole,  Goode,  Marshall,  Clopton,  Johnson,  M'Coy,  Beirne,  Miller,  Mason  of  South- 
ampton, Claiborne,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Hahfax,  Logan,  Holladay,  Mason  of  Freder- 
ick, Campbell  of  Washington,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  IMorris,  Cloyd,  Mathews, 
Duncan,  Sunmiers,  Morcran,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Pren- 
tis,  Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Branch.  Townes,  Cabell,  31  artin,  Gordon,  Thomp- 
son, Massie,  Bates,  Bayly  and  Perrin — 45. 

JVoes — 3Iessrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Brodnax,  Alexander.  Tyler,  ^Nicholas,  Ander- 
son, Coffman,  Harrison.  "SVilhamson,  Baldwin.  Moore,  Smith.  Baxter,  Trezvant.  L'rqu- 
hart,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  fiercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne.  Cooke, 
Griggs,  ZSaylor.  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Miilan,  Byars,  Chapman, 
Oglesby,  Laidley,  See,  Doddridge,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Scott.  Claytor,  Saun- 
ders, Stuart,  Pleasants,  Iseale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes  and  L'pshur — i8. 

So  the  House  refused  to  strike  out. 

The  question  was  then  put  on  striking  out  the  last  clause,  referring  to  the  oath. 

Mr.  Stuart,  said,  that  this  had  been  resorted  to  as  the  only  means  of  getting  at  the 
fact:  it  was  an  invidious  task  (and  so  invidious  that  none  would  attempt  it.)  to  stand 
up  in  the  Assembly  and  oppose  a  man's  admission  to  a  seat,  by  oliering  to  prove  that 
he  had  fought  a  duel,  and  thus  deprive  of  his  seat  an  individual  whom  the  people  of 
his  district  had  elected  and  returned  to  the  Legislature  :  an  oath  was  the  only  expe- 
dient that  remained. 

Mr.  Yenable  said,  he  had  a  decided  objection  to  excluding  any  man  upon  his  own 
oath. 

Mr,  Cabell  said,  that  with  every  feeling  of  respect  toward  the  gentleman  from  Pa- 
trick, he  should  be  opposed  to  this  part  of  his  resolution.  He  was  willing  to  leave  the 
matter  to  the  Legislature,  acting  as  it  would  in  obedience  to  public  sentiment.  A  test 
oath,  of  all  measiures  upon  the  earth,  was  most  objectionable  in  his  view.  He  could 
not  endure  the  thouorht,  that  a  free  man,  whom  his  countrymen  had  elected  to  a  dis- 
tinguished office,  should  be  subjected  to  a  worse  than  inquisitorial  torture  to  obhge 
him  to  bear  witness  against  himself.  He  beheved  that  the  objection  of  liis  friend  from 
Patrick  would  be  attamed  as  matters  now  stood.  Public  sentiment  was  fast  coming 
into  opposition  to  tlie  practice,  and  he  would  not  attempt  to  accelerate  it  by  any  con- 
stitutional provision  hke  this. 

He  now  renewed  his  motion  for  an  indefinite  postponement  of  the  resolution  and 
amendments. 

3Ir.  Stanard  opposed  the  motion  to  postpone,  which  he  said  rested  on  incongruous 
propositions,  viz  :  that  it  was  in  the  power  of  the  Lecrislature  to  prescribe  the  oath  as 
they  had  done — and  that  it  was  worse  than  inquisitorial  torture  to  requne  any  such 
oath.  The  measure  was  to  be  indefinitely  postponed,  lecause  the  Legislature  already 
possessed  full  power,  and  because  it  had  exerted  that  power  to  infiict  a  worse  than  in- 
quisitorial torture  on  free  citizens  I  What  would  be  the  necessary  effect  of  the  gen- 
tleman's motion.'  to  cut  off,  with  the  rest  of  the  resolution,  that  clause  v.'hich  con- 
tained the  amnesty  for  past  offences,  and  leave  it  in  the  power  of  the  Legislature  to 
exert  its  authority  in  the  most  injurious  and  penal  manner  possible  :  to  empovrer  the 
Legislature  to  disfranchise  men  not  only  for  this  offence,  but  for  any  other  offences 
indefinitely.  He  said  to  those  who  were  from  the  lower  coimtry,  will  you  vote  for 
such  a  consequence  as  this  .'  He  said  to  those  who  were  hostile  to  the  exercise  of  this 
power  at  all  by  the  Legislature,  will  you  thus  give  a  carte  blanche  to  the  Legislature  to 
act  its  pleas-ore .'  He  said  to  those  who  were  in  favour  of  the  law,  are  vou  willino-  to 
leave  the  security  of  that  law  to  the  capricious  determination  of  the  question  as  to  its 
constitutionahty  t  He  thought  that  every  class  of  persons  in  the  Convention  should 
concTn:  with  one  voice  to  reject  the  motion  to  postpone. 

Mr.  Stuart  had  one  remark  to  address  to  those  who  were  friendly  to  the  law,  but 
had  voted  to  strike  out  the  constitutional  provision.  They  did  not  as  vet  know  whe- 
ther they  were  to  have  an  entirely  new  Constitution,  or  only  the  existing  Constitu- 
tion with  some  new  amendments. 

If  the  existing  Constitution  was  in  no  shape  to  continue,  where  would  the  Lems- 
lature  get  the  power  to  pass  any  such  law  r  The  law  itself  must  go  down.  A^s  it 
now  existed,  it  rested  on  the  general  power  given  bv  tlie  existinsf  Constitution  to  the 

99 


786 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Legislature,  to  prescribe  the  qualification  of  its  own  members;  and  if  they  could  on 
that  ground  prescribe  one  oath,  they  might  prescribe  twenty  :  the  resolution  proposed 
to  give  them  power  to  prescribe  this  one  only. 

The  question  was  now  taken  on  indefinite  postponement,  and  decided  by  ayes  and 
noes  as  follows  : 

j^ycs — Messrs.  Dromgoole,  Goode,  Marshall,  Johnson,  M'Coy,  Miller,  Randolph, 
Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Holladay,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline, 
Morris,  Duncan,  Summers,  Morgan,  Loyall,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Branch,  Townes, 
Cabell,  Martin,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie  and  Bates — 27. 

Koes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Alexander,  Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Anderson,  CofFman, 
Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Baxter,  Mason  of  Southamp- 
ton, Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh, 
Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Griggs,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George, 
M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby, 
J^aidley,  See,  Doddridge,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott, 
Green,  Tazewell,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Neale,  Rose, 
Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — C6. 

So  the  House  refused  indefinitely  to  postpone  the  consideration  of  the  resolution 
and  amendment. 

The  question  v/as  now  about  to  be  put  on  striking  out  the  last  clause  prescribing  the 
test  oath,  when 

Mr.  Stuart  expressed  his  willingness  to  withdraw  it,  with  consent;  but  Mr.  Dod- 
dridge and  others  objecting, 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  striking  out,  and  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  fol- 
lows : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Giles,  Brodnax, 
Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Clopton,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  M'Coy,  Beirne,  Smith, 
Miller,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of 
Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Campbell  of  Washington, 
Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Cloyd,  Duncan,  Summers,  Morgan,  Campbell  of 
Brooke,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Campbell 
of  Bedford,  Branch,  Townes,  Cabell,  Martin,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates, 
Neale,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 53. 

J^oes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas,  Anderson,  CofFman, 
Harrison,  Williamson,  Moore,  Baxter,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Hender- 
son, Osborne,  Cooke,  Griggs,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan, 
Byars,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Laidley,  See,  Doddridge, Wilson,  Scott,  Claytor, 
Saunders,  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Rose,  Coalter  and  Joynes — 40. 

So  the  clause  was  stricken  out. 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  agreeing  to  the  resolution  as  amended,  and  decided 
by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Alexander,  Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Anderson,  CofFman, 
Williamson,  Baldwin,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Baxter,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trez- 
vant, Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh, 
Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Griggs,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George, 
M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Cloyd,  Chap- 
man, Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Doddridge,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Barbour 
of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Claytor,  Saunders, 
Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly, 
Upshur  and  Perrin — 71. 

Noes — Messrs.  Dromgoole,  Goode,  Marshall,  Harrison,  Johnson,  M'Coy,  Miller, 
Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Roane,  Mathews,  Summers, 
See,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Branch,  Townes,  Cabell,  Martin  and  Bates — 22. 

So  the  Convention  agreed  to  the  resolution  in  the  following  form  : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Legislature  shall  have  power  to  declare  by  law,  that  no  per- 
son shall  be  capable  of  holding  or  being  elected  to  any  post  of  profit,  trust,  or  emolu- 
ment, civil  or  military,  under  the  Government  of  this  Commonwealth,  who  shall 
hereafter  fight  a  duel,  or  send  or  accept  a  challenge,  to  fight  a  duel,  the  probable  issue 
of  which  may  or  might  be  the  death  of  the  challenger  or  challenged,  or  shall  be 
second  to  either  party,  or  shall  in  any  manner  aid  or  assist  in  such  duel,  or  who  shall 
be  knowingly  the  bearer  of  such  challenge  or  acceptance.  But,  no  person  shall  be 
so  disqualified  by  reason  of  his  having  heretofore  fought  such  duel,  or  sent  or  accepted 
such  challenge,  or  been  second  in  such  duel,  or  been  the  bearer  of  such  challenge  or 
acceptance." 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke,  now  moved  for  the  consideration  of  the  following  reeo= 
lution  ,  sometime  since  offered  by  hijn,  and  laid  upon  the  table  : 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


787 


Whereas  republican  institutions  and  the  blessings  of  free  Government  originate 
in,  and  must  always  depend  upon  the  intelligence,  virtue  and  patriotism  of  the  com- 
munity :  And  whereas,  neither  intelligence  nor  virtue  can  be  maintained  or  promo- 
ted in  any  community  without  education,  it  shall  always  be  the  duty  of  the  Legisla- 
ture of  this  Commonwealth  to  patronize  and  encourage  such  a  system  of  education, 
or  such  common  schools  and  seminaries  of  learning,  as  will  in  their  wisdom  be  deemed 
to  be  most  conducive  to  secure  to  the  youth  of  this  Commonwealth  such  an  educa- 
tion as  may  most  promote  the  public  good." 

The  question  being  put  on  considering  the  resolution,  the  House  refused  to  con- 
sider it. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  the  House  then  proceeded  to  consider 
the  report  of  the  Committee  on  the  Bill  of  Rights. 

The  Committee  of  the  Whole  having  proposed  an  amendment  to  the  fifth  resolution, 
that  came  up  first  in  order  for  consideration. 

The  fifth  resolution  as  reported  by  the  Committee,  reads  as  follows  : 
Resolved,  That  no  title  of  nobility  shall  be  created  or  granted,  and  no  person  hold- 
ing any  office  of  profit  or  trust,  tinder  the  United  States,  or  under  any  King,  Prince,  or 
Foreign  State,  shall  hold  any  office  under  this  State." 

The  amendment  of  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  proposed  to  strike  out  the  words 
"  under  the  United  States,  or." 

Mr.  Randolph,  (who  had  not  been  present  in  Committee  of  the  Whole  when  this 
amendment  was  agreed  to,  having  been  confined  by  indisposition,)  now  rose  and  ad- 
dressed the  House  in  opposition  to  its  adoption  : 

Mr.  President, — It  would  be  better  to  amend  the  resolution  by  striking  out  the 
whole  of  it,  than  to  take  out  of  it  the  only  words  that  have  any  efficacy  at  all.  Who 
expects  that  we  are  ever  to  have  titles  of  nobility  in  this  country  ?  Nobody.  I  have 
no  objection,  however,  to  retaining  that  clause,  if  it  pleases  any  body.  Whoever  ap- 
prehended the  granting  of  offices  of  honor  and  profit  to  our  citizens  by  foreign  States 
and  Princes?  Sir,  they  have  beggars  enough  to  provide  for  at  home.  These  words, 
which  the  Committee  propose  to  strike  out,  are  the  only  part  of  the  resolution  which 
guard  against  any  real  danger :  and  they  do  look  to  an  obvious — a  great — an  impend- 
ing— an  immediate  danger.  Against  this,  we  will  not  provide  :  oh  no  :  it  is  quite  un- 
necessary !  And  yet  this  is  a  case  that  will  happen,  and  must  happen.  But  against  the 
other  case,  we  will  provide  most  gravely.  Sir,  there  is  a  farcical  solemnity  about  all  this, 
which  is  truly  amusing.  We  are  to  amend  the  paragraph  by  striking  from  it  the  only 
w^ords  that  have  any  real  operation  whatever,  and  which  apply  to  a  danger  that  is  imme- 
diate, and  that  must  and  will  occur.  There  is  an  old  proverb  which  says,  that  the  king's 
chaff*  is  better  than  other  men's  corn  :  and  it  would  never  be  better  applied,  than  to 
the  preference  which  the  people  of  this  Commonwealth  give  to  offices  held  under  the 
United  States  Government,  to  those  under  the  Government  of  Virginia.  W^e  learn 
in  that  book,  which  is  the  fountain  of  all  wisdom,  and  of  all  truth,  that  no  man  can 
serve  two  masters — that  a  man  cannot  serve  God  and  Mammon.  Sir,  no  more  can  a 
faithful  servant  of  this  Commonwealth  be  an  officer  under  the  United  States  at  the 
same  time — and  under  the  same  circumstances.  A  man  can't  have  two  countries  at 
once.  And  under  that  lies  an  important  truth.  What  has  been  so  long  the  dispute 
between  the  Irish  people  and  the  English  Government  ?  The  Irishman  feels  that  he 
can  have  but  one  country  :  but  the  Englishman  tries  to  convince  him  that  he  can  have 
two;  and  that  he  owes  a  higher  allegiance  to  that  country  in  which  he  was  not  born 
than  to  that  in  which  he  was  born  and  brought  up.  And  until  the  Englishman  can 
convince  him  of  this,  they  must  go  on  disputing  to  the  end  of  the  chapter,  or  until 
the  dispute  is  cut  short  by  the  sabre  or  the  bayonet.  Sir,  I  am  against  the  whole  reso- 
lution. This  subject  was  wisely  taken  up  by  Virginia  immediately  after  the  adoption 
of  the  Federal  Constitution,  and  she  passed  laws  at  once,  to  prevent  an  amalgamation 
of  the  offices  under  the  General  and  State  Governments.  I  hope  we  shall  have  the 
ayes  and  noes  on  agreeing  to  this  amendment. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  that  there  was  an  existing  statute  which  went  to  disquahfy  all  per- 
sons who  held  office  under  the  General  Government,  incompatible  in  their  nature 
with  those  under  the  State.  But  there  was  one  exception  to  this  remark.  A  person 
holding  a  commission  as  Justice  of  the  Peace  was  disquahfied  by  serving  as  a  Repre- 
sentative in  Congress.  Yet  these  two  were  not,  in  liis  judgment,  at  all  incompatible. 
A  place  in  Congress  was  held  to  be  an  office  under  the  General  Government,  accord- 
ing to  the  present  interpretation  of  the  statute  by  the  Legislature  of  Virginia,  and  had 
been  so  held  at  all  times.  Every  militia  officer  held  an  office  under  the  Common- 
wealth— ought  he  to  be  disqualified  for  serving  as  such  by  holding  an  office  under  the 
United  States  ?  The  whole  purpose  of  the  amendment  proposed  by  the  Committee 
of  the  Whole,  was  to  preserve  the  statute  as  it  now  stood,  and  not  by  the  Constitu- 
tion to  go  beyond  the  statutory  provision  in  some  parts  of  it,  and  to  fall  short  of  it  in 
others.    The  Legislature  would  still  have  power  to  prohibit  the  holding  of  offices  un= 


788 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION, 


der  both  Governments  so  far  as  was  necessary  and  proper.  But  if  any  fears  were  ap- 
prehended on  that  subject,  a  farther  amendment  could  be  added  to  the  resolution,  and  it 
should  have  his  support,  provided  it  did  not  introduce  a  provision  equivalent  to  that  now 
pi'oposed  to  be  stricken  out :  it  ought  not  to  prevent  citizens,  who  held  offices  valua- 
ble to  the  Commonwealth,  from  being  elected  as  members  of  Congress.  The  statute 
contained  a  provision,  which  prohibited  office  in  the  State,  to  any  who  received  any 
emolument  under  the  General  Government.  Now,  if  that  was  to  be  interpreted  ac- 
cording to  the  letter,  he  should  be  obliged  to  oppose  it  in  toto :  for,  then,  a  carpenter, 
who  was  employed  to  do  a  job  of  work  on  the  court  room,  occupied  by  a  Federal 
Court,  and  who  received  pay  for  his  work,  must  be  disqualified  from  all  office  of 
honour  or  profit,  under  Virginia.  This  evil,  to  be  sure,  was  avoided  by  the  prevail- 
ing construction  of  the  statute,  which  applied  the  prohibition  only  to  such  as  contimied 
statedly  to  receive  emolument  under  the  Federal  Government.  Mr.  L.  concluded  by 
observing,  that  in  his  opinion,  the  law  as  it  now  stood,  and  was  at  present  interpreted, 
defined  the  proper  limit :  and  he  was  not  for  altering  that  limit,  by  a  constitutional 
provision. 

Mr.  Randolph  again  rose.  Sir,  I  believe  that  there  is  an  adjudged  case  :  I  refer  to 
the  case  of  Blount,  where  it  is  determined  that  a  member  of  Congress  is  not  an  of- 
ficer of  the  United  States.  I  certainly  never  so  understood,  or  so  considered  the  sta- 
tion of  a  member  of  Congress.  He  did  not  receive  his  commission  from  the  United 
States.  If,  indeed,  he  were  appointed  by  the  United  States,  then  he  would  be  a 
United  States'  officer. 

Mr.  R.  said,  that  his  objection  to  agreeing  to  this  amendment  was,  that  it  was  a 
negative  pregnant :  it  contained  a  very  strong  intimation  that  there  ought  not  to  be 
such  a  provision  made  by  law.  If  it  had  not  been  attempted  in  the^first  instance 
to  raise  this  banner  against  Federal  encroachment,  it  would  have  been  one  thing : 
if  the  question  had  been  untouched,  unmooted,  undisturbed  :  but  when  the  attempt 
to  raise  the  banner  had  been  made,  and  it  was  then  struck  down  by  the  act  of 
this  Convention,  the  case  became  totally  difi^erent :  it  was  put  on  a  different  foot  en- 
tirely. Would  any  man  say  that  the  anti-duelling  law,  for  example,  stood  on  the 
same  footing,  since  the  clause  in  the  Constitution  prescribing  the  oath  had  been 
stricken  out,  that  it  stood  on  before  the  attempt  was  made  to  insert  that  clause  ?  All 
persons  must  feel  that  it  did  not.  As  to  any  farther  amendment,  Mr.  R.  said,  he  had 
come  to  the  Convention  with  two  fixed  determinations  in  his  mind  :  the  one  had  been, 
to  make  no  propositions  at  all  during  its  sitting ;  and  to  this,  with  the  blessing  of  God, 
he  hoped  to  adhere  :  the  other  had  been,  not  to  open  his  lips  save  to  answer  when  his 
name  should  be  called :  to  this  resolution  he  had  not  had  the  fortitude  to  adhere.  He 
wished  he  had. 

Mr.  Stanard  now  went  into  a  very  extended  explanation  and  recapitulation  of  all 
that  had  been  urged  in  Committee  of  the  Whole,  on  this  subject,  and  which  accounted 
for  the  amendment  which  the  Committee  had  recommended. 

Mr.  Taylor  of  Chesterfield  said,  that  at  a  proper  time  he  should  move  to  insert  by 
way  of  amendment  to  the  resolution,  the  act  of  Assembly  on  this  subject  (which  he 
had  offered  in  Committee  of  the  Wliole.) 

Mr.  Leigh  observed,  that  he  had  said,  he  was  prepared  to  vote  for  any  proposition 
by  which  the  offices  of  the  two  Governments  were  properly  separated.  But  the  gen- 
tleman from  Loudoun,  (Mr.  Mercer.)  had  said  that  where  no  qualifications  for  office 
were  required  by  the  Constitution,  the  Legislature  had  no  right  to  require  any — Now, 
this  was  a  position  he  had  never  heard  taken  before  in  the  whole  course  of  his  life. 
He  had  never  heard  the  right  of  the  Legislature  to  do  so,  so  much  as  questioned  be- 
fore. It  had,  indeed,  been  contended,  that  where  the  Constitution  did  lay  down  cer- 
tain qualifications,  the  Legislature  might  not  extend  those  qualifications,  on  the  prin- 
ciple that  exdusio  unius  est  admissio  alterius.  But  it  seemed  to  him  that  the  gentle- 
man's principle  was  irreconcileabie  with  the  very  notion  of  State  Government. 
Where  a  Government  exists  by  enumerated  powers,  then  undoubtedly  it  was  as  the 
gentleman  stated.  But  where  the  Constitution  only  interdicted  and  did  not  enu- 
merate the  powers  of  the  Government,  then  the  Government  might  do  whatever  the 
Constitution  did  not  forbid.  This  was  the  distinction  between  the  Federal  and  the 
State  Governments.  Mr.  L.  said  he  had  no  fears  that  the  gentleman  from  Loudoun 
ever  could  prevail,  and  therefore,  he  was  for  striking  out  the  clause  and  leaving  the 
Legislature  to  act  as  it  might  see  proper  in  the  case.  He  desired  to  leave  the  statute 
in  full  force:  possibly  it  might  l3e  somewhat  modified;  but  he  would  leave  that 
wholly  to  the  Legislature.  He  was  content  with  the  statute  as  it  stood  and  was  now 
interpreted.  There  was  one  objection  to  the  amendment.  If  the  proposition  had 
been  made  and  should  be  stricken  out  by  the  Convention,  it  might  possibly  be  con- 
sidered that  the  Legislature  had  no  power  to  pass  such  an  act :  but  if  they  refused  to 
do  so,  it  might  be  construed  into  a  repeal  of  the  act.  This  statute  stood  on  the  same 
footing  with  others.    It  was  ancient  in  its  date ;  and  had  been  amended  in  X798,  and 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


789 


now  the  several  laws  on  the  subject  were  embodied  in  one  statute.  Mr.  L.  said  he 
was  for  striking  out  the  words  as  proposed  by  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  and  leav- 
ing the  power  of  the  Legislature  unimpaired.  He  would  not  consent  to  say  that  the 
Legislature  had  no  powers  but  such  as  were  expressly  given  to  it  by  the  Constitution : 
he  believed  on  the  contrary  that  they  possessed  all  powers  that  were  not  forbidden. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  that  it  was  hardly  necessary  for  him  to  rise  for  the  purpose  of  vin- 
dicating the  opinion  he  had  advanced  when  another  topic  had  been  under  discussion. 
His  opinion  was,  that  where  the  Constitution  laid  down  any  qualification  for  office, 
the  Legislature  had  no  power  to  superadd  to  those  qualifications;  and  when  the  Con- 
stitution required  none,  the  Legislature  had  no  right  to  require  any.  The  conse- 
quences of  the  opposite  position  were  too  alarming,  and  the  extent  of  the  principle 
too  obvious  to  need  illustration. 

Mr.  Coalter  said,  he  should  vote  for  the  Committee's  amendment.  He  had  not 
differed  in  opinion  from  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte,  (Mr.  Randolph  :)  he  wished  to 
see  some  substantial  clause  inserted  in  the  place  of  that  which  the  Committee  pro- 
posed to  strike  out :  and  he  should  therefore  vote  for  striking  out  the  present  words, 
in  the  hope  that  better  would  be  substituted. 

Mr.  Stanard  said,  that  he  wished  to  amend  the  resolution  by  adding  to  it  a  clause 
declaring  that  no  person  holding  any  office  of  emolument  under  the  General  Govern- 
ment, should,  at  the  same  time,  hold  any  office  of  emolument  under  tlie  Common- 
wealth of  Virginia. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh,  believing  the  discussion  to  be  only  a  waste  of  time,  moved  the  in- 
definite postponement  of  the  resolution  and  amendment. 
The  motion  prevailed  by  a  large  majority. 

So  the  amendment  of  the  Committee  to  the  fiflh  resolution  itself,  was  indefinitely 
postponed. 

The  Convention  now  proceeded  to  the  report  itself,  and  took  up  its  resolutions 
seriatim. 

The  first  resolution  was  read  as  follows : 

"  Resolved,  as  the  opinion  of  this  Committee,  That  the  Constitution  of  this  State 
ought  to  be  so  amended  as  to  provide  a  mode  in  which  futm-e  amendments  shall  be 
made  therein." 

Mr.  Randolph  addressed  the  Convention  in  opposition  to  its  adoption  : 

Mr.  President — I  shall  vote  against  this  resolution  :  and  I  will  state  as  succinctly  as 
I  can,  my  reasons  for  doing  so.  I  believe  that  they  will,  in  substance,  be  found  in  a 
very  old  book,  and  conveyed  in  these  words  sufficient  unto  the  day,  is  the  evil 
thereof."  Sir,  I  have  remarked  since  the  commencement  of  our  deliberations — and 
with  no  small  surprise — a  very  great  anxiety  to  provide  for  futuritij.  Gentlemen,  for 
example,  are  not  content  with  any  present  discussion  of  the  Constitution,  unless  we 
wuU  consent  to  prescribe  for  all  time  hereafter.  I  had  always  thought  him  tlie  most 
skilful  physician,  who,  when  called  to  a  patient,  relieved  him  of  the  existing  malady^ 
without  undertaking  to  prescribe  for  such  as  he  might  by  possibility  endure  thereafter. 

Sir,  said  Mr.  R..  what  is  the  amount  of  this  provision  ?  It  is  either  mischievous,  or 
it  is  nugatory.  I  do  not  know  a  greater  calamity  that  can  happen  to  any  nation,  than 
having  the  foundations  of  its  Government  unsettled. 

Dr.  Franklin,  who,  in  shrewdness,  especially  in  all  that  related  to  domestic  life,  was 
never  excelled,  used  to  say,  that  two  movings  were  equal  to  one  fire.  So  to  any  peo- 
ple, two  Constitutions  are  worse  than  a  fire.  And  gentlemen,  as  if  they  were  afraid 
that  this  besetting  sin  of  P»,epublican  Governments,  this  reruvi  novaruvi  Inhido,  (to 
use  a  very  homely  phrase,  but  one  that  comes  pat  to  the  purpose,)  this  magoot  of  in- 
novation, would  cease  to  bite,  are  here  gravety  making  provision,  that  this  Constitu- 
tion, which  we  should  consider  as  a  remedy  for  all  the  ills  of  the  body  politic,  may 
itself  be  amended  or  modified  at  any  future  time.  Sir,  I  am  against  any  such  pro- 
vision.   I  should  as  soon  think  of  introducing  into  a  marriasfe  contract  a  provision 

for  divorce  ;  and  thus  poisoning  the  greatest  blessing  of  mankind  at  its  very  source  

at  its  fountain  head.  He  has  seen  little,  and  has  reflected  less,  who  does  not  know 
that  necessity"  is  the  great,  powerful,  governing  principle  of  affairs  here.  Sir,  I  am 
not  going  into  that  question  which  puzzled  Pandoemonium,  the  question  of  liberty 
and  necessity. 

"  Free  will,  fix'd  fate,  foieknowledge,  absolute  ;" 

but,  I  do  contend,  that  necessity  is  one  principal  instrument  of  all  the  good  that  man 
enjoys. 

'The  happiness  of  the  connubial  union  itself  depends  greatly  on  necessity ;  and 
when  you  touch  this,  you  touch  the  arch,  the  key-stone  of  the  arch,  on  which  the 
happiness  and  well-being  of  society  is  founded. 

.  Look  at  the  relation  of  master  and  slave ;  (that  opprobrium,  in  the  opinion  of  some 
gentlemen,  to  all  civilized  society  and  all  free  Government.)  Sir,  there  are  few  situa- 


790 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


tions  in  life  where  friendships  so  strong  and  so  lasting  are  formed,  as  in  that  very  re- 
lation. The  slave  knows  that  he  is  bound,  indissolubly,  to  his  master,  and  must  from 
necessity,  remain  always  under  his  controul.  The  master  knows  that  he  is  bound  to 
maintain  and  provide  for  his  slave  so  long  as  he  retains  him  in  his  possession.  And 
each  party  accommodates  himself  to  his  situation.  1  have  seen  the  dissolution  of 
many  friendships,  such,  at  least,  as  were  so  called  ;  but  I  have  seen  that  of  master 
and  slave  endure  so  long  as  there  remained  a  drop  of  the  blood  of  the  master  to 
which  the  slave  could  cleave.  Where  is  the  necessity  of  this  provision  in  the  Con- 
stitution ?  Where  is  the  use  of  it  ?  Sir,  what  are  we  about  i  Have  we  not  been  un- 
doing what  the  wiser  heads — I  must  be  permitted  to  say  so — yes.  Sir,  what  the  wiser 
heads  of  our  ancestors  did  more  than  half  a  century  ago  ?  Can  any  one  believe  that 
we,  by  any  amendments  of  ours — by  any  of  our  scribbling  on  that  parchment — by 
any  amulet — any  legerdemain— charm — abracadabra — of  ours,  can  prevent  our  sons 
from  doing  the  same  thing  that  is,  from  doing  as  they  please,  just  as  we  are  doing 
as  we  please It  is  impossible.  Who  can  bind  posterity  ?  When  1  hear  gentlemen 
talk  of  making  a  Constitution  "for  all  time" — and  introducing  provisions  into  it, 
"  for  all  time" — and  yet  see  men  here,  that  are  older  than  the  Constitution  we  are 
about  to  destroy — (I  am  older  myself  than  the  present  Constitution — it  was  established 
when  I  was  a  boy) — it  reminds  me  of  the  truces  and  the  peaces  in  Europe.  They 
always  begin,  "  In  the  name  of  the  most  holy  and  undivided  Trinity,"  and  go  on  to 
declare,  "  there  shall  be  perfect  and  perpetual  peace  and  unity  between  the  subjects 
of  such  and  such  potentates,  for  all  time  to  come" — and,  in  less  than  seven  years, 
they  are  at  war  again. 

Sir,  I  am  not  a  prophet  or  a  seer ;  but  I  will  venture  to  predict,  that  your  new  Con- 
stitution, if  it  shall  be  adopted — does  not  last  twenty  years.  And  so  confident  am  I 
in  this  opinion,  that  if  it  were  a  proper  subject  for  betting,  and  I  was  a  sporting  cha- 
racter, I  believe  I  would  take  ten  against  it. 

It  would  seem  as  if  we  were  endeavouring — (God  forbid  that  I  should  insinuate, 
that  such  was  the  intention  of  any  here) — as  if  we  were  endeavouring  to  corrupt  the 
people  at  the  fountain  head.  Sir,  the  great  opprobrium  of  popular  Government,  is 
its  instability.  It  was  this  which  made  the  people  of  our  Anglo-Saxon  stock  cling 
with  such  pertinacity  to  an  independent  Judiciary,  as  the  only  means  they  could  find 
to  resist  this  vice  of  popular  Governments.  By  such  a  provision  as  this,  we  are  now 
inviting,  and  in  a  manner  prompting  the  people,  to  be  dissatisfied  with  their  Govern- 
ment. Sir,  there  is  no  need  of  this.  Dissatisfaction  will  come,  soon  enough.  I  fore- 
tell now,  and  with  a  confidence  surpassed  by  none  I  ever  felt  on  any  occasion,  that 
those  who  have  been  the  most  anxious  to  destroy  the  Constitution  of  Virginia,  and  to 
substitute  in  its  place  this  thing,  will  not  be  more  dissatisfied  now  with  the  result  of 
our  labours,  than  this  new  Constitution  will  very  shortly  be  opposed  by  all  the  peo- 
ple of  the  State.  I  speak  not  at  random.  1  have  high  authority  for  what  I  say  now 
in  my  eye.  Though  it  was  said  that  the  people  called  for  a  new  state  of  things,  yet 
the  gentleman  from  Brooke  himself  (Mr.  Doddridge)  who  came  into  the  Legislative 
Committee  armed  with  an  axe  to  lay  at  the  root  of  the  tree,  told  the  Convention  that 
he  would  sooner  go  home  and  live  under  the  old  Constitution  than  adopt  some  of  the 
provisions  which  have  received  the  sanction  of  this  body.  But  I  am  wandering  from 
the  point. 

Sir,  I  see  no  wisdom  in  making  this  provision  for  future  changes.  You  must  give 
Governments  time  to  operate  on  the  people,  and  give  the  people  time  to  become  gra- 
dually assimilated  to  their  institutions.  Almost  any  thing  is  better  than  this  state  of 
perpetual  uncertainty.  A  people  may  have  the  best  form  of  Government  that  the 
wit  of  man  ever  devised;  and  yet,  from  its  uncertainty  alone,  may,  in  eflfect,  live  un- 
der the  worst  Government  in  the  world.  Sir,  how  often  must  I  repeat,  that  change 
is  not  reform.  I  am  willing  that  this  new  Constitution  shall  stand  as  long  as  it  is  pos- 
sible for  it  to  stand,  and  that,  believe  me,  is  a  very  short  time.  Sir,  it  is  vain  to  deny 
it.  They  may  say  what  they  please  about  the  old  Constitution — the  defect  is  not 
there.  It  is  not  in  the  form  of  the  old  edifice,  neither  in  the  design  nor  the  elevation : 
it  is  in  the  material — it  is  in  the  people  of  Virginia.  To  my  knowledge  that  people  are 
changed  from  what  they  have  been.  The  four  hundred  men  who  went  out  to  David 
were  in  debt.  The  partizans  of  Caesar  were  in  debt.  The  fellow-labourers  of  Cataline 
were  in  debt.  And  I  defy  you  to  shew  me  a  desperately  indebted  people  any  where, 
who  can  bear  a  regular  sober  Government.  I  throw  the  challenge  to  all  who  hear  me. 
I  say  that  the  character  of  the  good  old  Virginia  planter — the  man  who  owned  from 
five  to  twenty  slaves,  or  less,  who  lived  by  hard  work,  and  who  paid  his  debts,  is 
passed  away.  A  new  order  of  things  is  come.  The  period  has  arrived  of  living  by 
one's  wits — of  living  by  contracting  debts  that  one  cannot  pay — and  above  all,  of  liv- 
ing by  office-hunting.  Sir,  what  do  we  see Bankrupts — branded  bankrupts — giving 
great  dinners — sending  their  children  to  the  most  expensive  schools — giving  grand 
partieg— and  just  as  well  received  as  any  body  in  society.    I  say,  that  in  such  a  state 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


791 


of  things,  the  old  Constitution  was  too  good  for  them,  they  could  not  bear  it.  No, 
Sir,  they  could  not  bear  a  freehold  suffrage  and  a  property  representation.  I  have  al- 
ways endeavoured  to  do  the  people  justice — but  I  will  not  flatter  them — I  will  not 
pander  to  their  appetite  for  change.  I  will  do  nothing  to  provide  for  change.  I  will 
not  agree  to  any  rule  of  future  apportionment,  or  to  any  provision  for  future  changes 
called  amendments  to  the  Constitution.  They  who  love  change — who  delight  in 
public  confusion — who  wish  to  feed  the  cauldron  and  make  it  bubble — may  vote  if 
they  please  for  future  changes.  But  by  what  spell — by  what  formula  are  you  going 
to  bind  the  people  to  all  future  time  ?  Quis  custodiet  cvstodes?  The  daj^s  of  Lycurgus 
are  gone  by,  when  he  could  swear  the  people  not  to  alter  the  Constitution  until  he 
should  return — anivio  non  revertendi.  You  may  make  what  entries  upon  parchment 
you  please.  Give  me  a  Constitution  that  will  last  for  half  a  century — that  is  all  I 
wish  for.  No  Constitution  that  you  can  make  will  last  the  one-half  of  half  a  century. 
Sir,  I  will  stake  any  thing  short  of  my  salvation,  that  those  who  are  malcontent  now 
will  be  more  malcontent  three  years  hence  than  they  are  at  this  day.  I  have  no  fa- 
vour for  this  Constitution.  I  shall  vote  against  its  adoption,  and  I  shall  advise  all  the 
people  of  my  district  to  set  their  faces — aye — and  their  shoulders  against  it.  But  if 
we  are  to  have  it — let  us  not  have  it  with  its  death  warrant  in  its  very  face  :  with  the 
fades  Jujpocratica — the  Sardonic  grin  of  death  upon  its  countenance. 

The  question  was  now  taken  and  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Nay- 
lor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  jNI'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge, 
Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Stuart,  Thompson, 
Joynes,  Bayly  and  Upshur — 25. 

Noes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Tyler,  Nicholas, 
Clopton,  Anderson,  Coffmnn,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  M'Coy, 
Moore,  Beirne,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph, 
Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Henderson,  Osborne, 
Cooke,  Griggs,  Pendleton,  George,  Byars,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Cloyd, 
Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  ]3arbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green, 
Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin, 
Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter  and  Perrin — 68. 

So  the  resolution  was  rejected,  and  the  Convention  determined  that  the  new  Con- 
stitution should  contain  in  itself  no  provision  for  future  amendments. 

The  fifth  having  been  indefinitely  postponed, 

The  second  and  third  resolutions  were  also  read. 

And  on  motion  of  Mr.  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  were  laid  on  the  table. 

The  fourth  resolution  was  then  agreed  to  as  follows : 
Resolved,  That  the  freedom  of  speech,  and  of  the  press,  ought  to  be  held  sacred, 
and  guaranteed  by  the  Constitution." 

The  sixth  was  laid  on  the  table,  being  superceded  by  one  of  like  character  already 
adopted. 

Mr.  Doddridge  now  observed,  that  the  lahours  of  the  Convention  thus  far  completed, 
he  should  offer  a  resolution  authorising  the  Select  Committee  to  have  printed  under 
the  direction  of  the  President  all  the  resolutions  which  had  been  adopted  by  the  Con- 
vention. 

This  resolution  was  agreed  to. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Doddridge,  it  was  agreed  by  the  casting  vote  of  the  President, 
that  when  the  House  adjourns,  it  will  adjourn  to  meet  on  Saturday  next  at  11  o'clock. 
Mr.  Mason  of  Southampton,  moved  the  following  : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  Select  Committee,  raised  to  prepare  and  report  a  new  Consti- 
tution, or  amendments  to  the  existing  one,  &c.  be  instructed  to  report  an  apportion- 
ment of  the  representation  in  the  Senate  and  House  of  Delegates,  amongst  the  several 
counties,  boroughs,  and  election  districts  of  the  Conamonwealth,  conformably  to  the 
resolutions  to  them  referred." 

A  desultory  conversation  arose  on  this  motion,  in  which  Messrs.  Mason,  Hender- 
son, M'Coy,  Gordon,  Brodnax,  Stanard,  Marshall,  Naylor  and  Claiborne  took  part, 
and  which  terminated  in  the  adoption  of  the  resolution. 

The  House  then  adjourned  to  Saturday,  11  o'clock. 


792 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


SATURDAY,  January  2,  1830. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Douglass  of  the  Presbyterian  Church. 

The  President,  conceiving  that  nothing  of  importance  was  likely  to  be  done  until 
the  Committee  should  report,  forbore  to  call  the  House  to  order :  but  the  members 
having  waited  for  a  considerable  time, 

Mr.  Summers  suggested,  that  the  Select  Committee  had  not  probably  made  up  their 
report,  and  that  it  would  scarcely  be  necessary  to  wait  for  them.  But  he  enquired, 
whether  it  would  not  be  proper  to  make  an  order  for  that  report  to  be  printed  as  soon 
as  it  was  prepared. 

On  putting  tlie  question  for  printing,  it  was  agreed  to  without  opposition. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke  suggested  also,  whether  the  door-keepers  had  not  better 
carry  around  to  the  members  the  report  as  soon  as  it  was  printed — and  the  Chair  re- 
plied, that  that  would  be  a  matter  of  course. 

The  Convention  then  adjourned. 


MONDAY,  January  4,  1830. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr.  ^ 
Courtney  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

Mr.  Madison,  from  the  Select  Committee,  made  the  following  report: 

The  Select  Committee,  to  whom  the  several  resolutions  of  the  Convention  were 
referred,  with  instructions  to  prepare  and  report  either  a  new  Constitution,  or  amend^' 
ments  to  the  existing  Constitution,  and  to  report  an  apportionment  of  the  represen- 
tation in  the  Senate  and  House  of  Delegates,  among  the  several  counties,  cities,  bo- 
roughs and  districts  of  the  Commonwealth,  conformably  with  the  resolutions  to  them 
refen-ed,  respectfully  report  the  following  form  of  an  amended  Constitution  : 

Whereas  the  Delegates  and  Representatives  of  the  good  people  of  Virginia,  in 
Convention  assembled,  on  the  twenty-ninth  day  of  June,  in  the  year  of  our  Lord  one 
thousand  seven  hundred  and  seventy-six :  Reciting  and  declaring,  that  whereas, 
George  the  third,  King  of  Great  Britain  and  Ireland,  and  Elector  of  Hanover,  before 
that  time  entrusted  with  the  exercise  of  the  kingly  office  in  the  Government  of  Vir- 
ginia, had  endeavoured  to  pervert  the  same  into  a  detestable  and  insupportable  tyranny^ 
by  putting  his  negative  on  laws  the  most  wholesome  and  necessary  for  the  public 
good ;  by  denying  his  Governors  permission  to  pass  laws  of  immediate  and  pressing 
importance,  unless  suspended  in  their  operation  for  his  assent,  and  when  so  suspended 
neglecting  to  attend  to  them  for  many  years ;  by  refusing  to  pass  certain  other  laws, 
unless  the  persons  to  be  benefitted  by  them  would  relinquish  the  inestimable  right  of 
representation  in  the  Legislature ;  by  dissolving  Legislative  Assemblies  repeatedly 
and  continually,  for  opposing  with  manly  firmness  his  invasions  of  the  rights  of  the 
people ;  when  dissolved,  by  refusing  to  call  others  for  a  long  space  of  time,  thereby 
leaving  the  political  system  without  any  legislative  head  ;  by  endeavouring  to  pre- 
vent the  population  of  our  country,  and  for  that  purpose  obstructing  the  laws  for  the 
naturalization  of  foreigners ;  by  keeping  among  us,  in  time  of  peace,  standing  armies 
and  ships  of  war;  by  affecting  to  render  the  military  independent  of  and  superiour 
to  the  civil  power ;  by  combining  with  others  to  subject  us  to  a  foreign  jurisdiction, 
giving  his  assent  to  their  pretended  acts  of  legislation,  for  quartering  large  bodies  of 
armed  troops  among  us,  for  cutting  off  our  trade  with  all  parts  of  the  world,  for  im- 
posing taxes  on  us  without  our  consent,  for  depriving  us  of  the  benefits  of  the  trial 
by  jury,  for  transporting  us  beyond  seas  to  be  tried  for  pretended  offences,  for  sus- 
pending our  own  Legislatures  and  declaring  themselves  invested  w^ith  powder  to  legis- 
late for  us  in  all  cases  whatsoever;  by  plundering  our  seas,  ravaging  our  coasts,  burn- 
ing our  towns,  and  destroying  the  lives  of  our  people ;  by  inciting  insurrections  of 
our  fellow  subjects  with  the  allurements  of  forfeiture  and  confiscation  ;  by  prompting 
our  negroes  to  rise  in  arms  among  us,  those  very  negroes,  whom  by  an  inhuman  use 
of  his  negative  he  had  refused  us  permission  to  exclude  by  law ;  by  endeavouring  to 
bring  on  tiie  inhabitants  of  our  frontiers,  the  merciless  Indian  savages,  whose  known 
rule  of  warfare  is  an  undistinguished  destruction  of  all  ages,  sexes  and  conditions  of 
existence  ;  by  transporting  a  large  army  of  foreign  mercenaries,  to  complete  the  work 
of  death,  desolation  and  tyranny,  then  already  begun  with  circumstances  of  cruelty 
and  perfidy  unworthy  the  head  of  a  civilized  nation ;  by  answering  our  repeated  pe- 
titions for  redress  with  a  repetition  of  injuries ;  and  finally,  by  abandoning  the  helm 
of  Government,  and  declaring  us  out  of  his  allegiance  and  protection :  by  which  se- 
veral acts  of  misrule,  the  Government  of  this  country,  as  before  exercised  under  the 
Crown  of  Great  Britain,  was  totally  dissolved  :  Did,  therefore,  having  maturely  con- 


DEBATES    OF    THE  LONVENTION. 


793 


sidered  the  premises,  and  viewing  with  great  concern  the  deplorable  condition,  to 
which  this  once  happy  country  would  be  reduced,  unless  some  regular  adequate  mode 
of  civil  polity  should  be  speedily  adopted,  and  in  compliance  with  the  recommendation 
of  the  General  Congress,  ordain  and  declare  a  form  of  Government  of  Virginia : 

And  whereas  the  General  Assembly  of  Virginia,  by  an  act  passed  on  the  tenth  day 
of  February,  in  the  year  of  our  Lord  one  thousand  eight  hundred  and  twenty-nine, 
entitled,  an  act  to  organize  a  Convention,  did  authorise  and  provide  for  tlie  election, 
by  the  people,  of  Delegates  and  Representatives,  to  meet  and  assemble,  in  General 
Convention,  at  the  Capitol  in  the  City  of  Richmond,  on  the  first  ^londay  of  October 
in  the  year  last  aforesaid,  to  consider,  discuss  and  propose,  a  new  Constitution,  or  al- 
terations and  amendments  of  the  existing  Constitution  of  this  Commonwealth,  to  be 
submitted  to  the  people,  and  to  be  by  them  ratified  or  rejected  : 

We,  therefore,  the  Delegates  and  Representatives  of  the  good  people  of  Virginia,  ' 
elected  and  in  Convention  assembled,  in  pursuance  of  the  said  act  of  Assembly,  do 
submit  and  propose  to  the  people  the  following  amended.  Constitution  and  Form  of 
Government  for  this  Commonwealth,  tliat  is  to  say  : 

I.  The  Legislative,  Executive  and  Judiciary  Departments,  shall  be  separate  and 
distinct,  so  that  neither  exercise  the  powers  properly  beloncring  to  either  of  the  others  ; 
nor  shall  any  person  exercise  the  powers  of  more  than  one  of  them  at  the  same  time, 
except  that  the  Justices  of  the  County  Courts  shall  be  eligible  to  either  House  of 
Assembly. 

II.  The  Legislature  shall  be  formed  of  two  distinct  branches,  v,-hich  together  shall 
be  a  complete  Legislature,  and  shall  be  called  the  General  Assembly  of  Virginia. 

III.  One  of  these  shall  be  called  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  shall  consist  of  one 
hundred  and  twenty-seven  members,  to  be  chosen  annually,  for  and  by  the  several 
counties,  cities,  towns  and  boroughs  of  the  Commonwealth :  whereof  twenty-nine 
Delegates  shall  be  chosen  for  and  by  the  twenty-six  counties  lying  West  of  the  Alle- 
ghany mountains  :  twenty-four  for  and  by  the  fourteen  counties  lying  between  the 
Alleghany  and  Blue  Ridge  of  mountains:  forty  for  and  by  the  twenty-nine  counties 
lying  East  of  the  Blue  Rido'e  and  above  tide-water ;.  and  thirty-four  for  and  by  the 
counties,  cities,  towns  and  boroucrhs,  lying  upon  tide-water,  that  is  to  say  :  Of  the 
twenty-six  counties  lying  West  of  the  Alleghany,  the  counties  of  Harrison.  Ohio  and 
Vrashington,  shall  each  elect  two  Delegates;,  and  the  counties  of  Brooke,  Cabell, 
Grayson,  Greenbrier,  Giles,  Kanawha.  Lee,  Lewis.  Logan,  ]Mason.  Monongalia,  Mon- 
roe, Montgomery,  Nicholas,  Pocahontas,  Preston.  Randolph,  P».ussell.  Scott.  Tazewell, 
Tyler,  Wood  and  Wythe,  shall  each  elect  one  Delegate.  Of  the  fourteen  counties 
lying  between  the  Alleghany  and  Blue  Ridfre  of  mountains,  the  counties  of  Frede- 
rick and  Shenandoah  shall  each  elect  three  Delerrates  ;  the  counties  of  Augusta,  Bo- 
tetourt, Hampshire,  Jefferson,  Rockingham  and  Rockbridge,  shall  each  elect  two  De- 
legates; the  counties  of  Berkeley  and  Morgan  shall  together  elect  two  Delegates ; 
and  the  counties  of  Alleghany,  Bath.  Hardy  "and  Pendleton,  shall  each  elect  one  De- 
legate. Of  the  twenty-nine  counties  lying  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge  of  mountains  and 
above  tide-water,  the  county  of  Loudoun  shall  elect  three  Delegates  :  the  counties  of 
Albemarle,  Bedford,  Buckingham.  Campbell,  Culpeper,  Fauquier.  Halifax,  ]\Iecklen- 
burg  and  Pittsylvania,  shall  each  elect  two  Delegates;  and  the  counties  of  Ameha, 
Amherst,  Brunswick,  Charlotte,  Cumberland,  Dinwiddle,  Fluvanna,  Franklin,  Gooch- 
land, Henry,  Louisa,  Lunenburg,  Madison,  Nelson,  Nottoway,  Orange,  Patrick,  Pow- 
hatan and  Prince  Edward,  shall  each  elect  one  Delegate.  And  of  the  counties,  cities, 
towns  and  boroughs,  lying  on  tide-water,  the  counties  of  Accomack  and  Norfolk  shall 
each  elect  tvro  Delegates;  the  counties  of  Caroline,  Chesterfield,  Essex.  Fairfax, 
Greensville,  Gloucester,  Hanover,  Henrico,  Isle  of  Wight,  King  &,  Queen,  King 
William,  Nansemond,  New  Kent,  Northumberland,  Northampton,  Princess  Anne, 
Prince  William,  Southampton,  Spottsylvania.  Stafford  and  Sussex,  and  the  city  of 
Richmond,  the  borough  of  Norfolk,  and  the  town  of  Petersburg,  shall  each  elect  one 
Delegate;  the  counties  of  Lancaster  and  Piichmond  shall  togetlier  elect  one  Dele- 
gate ;  the  counties  of  Westm.oreland  and  King  George  shall  together  elect  one  De- 
legate ;  the  counties  of  ^Matthews  and  ^Middlesex  shall  together  elect  one  Deleorate ;  the 
counties  of  Elizabeth  City,  Warwick  and  York,  shall  together  elect  one  Delegate  :  the 
counties  of  James  City  and  Charles  City,  and  the  city  of  Wilhamsburg.^shall  to 
gether  elect  one  Delegate ;  and  the  counties  of  Prince  George  and  Surry  shall  to^ 
gether  elect  one  Delegate. 

IV.  The  other  House  of  the  General  Assembly  shall  be  called  the  Senate,  and 
shall  consist  of  thirty-two  members,  of  whom  thirteen  shall  be  chosen  for  and  bv  the 
counties  Iving  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge  of  mountains,  and  nineteen  for  and  by  the 
counties,  cities,  towns  and  boroughs,  lying  East  thereof;  and  for  the  election  of  whom, 
the  counties,  cities,  towns  and  boroughs,  shall  be  divided  into  thirty-two  districts,  as 
herein  after  provided.  Each  county  of  the  respective  districts,  at  the  time  of  the 
first  election  of  its  Delegate  or  Delegates  under  this  Constitution,  shall  vote  for  one 
Senator;  and  the  sheriffs  or  other  officers  holdmcr  the  election  for  each  county  citv 

100     ^  '' 


794 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


town  or  borough,  within  five  days  at  farthest  after  the  last  county,  city,  town  or  bo- 
rough election  in  the  district,  shall  meet  at  some  convenient  place,  and  from  the  polls 
so  taken  in  tlieir  respective  counties,  cities,  towns  or  boroughs,  return  as  a  Senator 
the  person  who  shall  have  the  greatest  number  of  votes  in  the  whole  district.  To 
keep  up  this  Assembly  by  rotation,  the  districts  shall  be  equally  divided  into  four 
classes,  and  numbered  by  lot.  At  the  end  of  one  year  after  the  first  general  election, 
the  eight  members  elected  by  the  first  division  shall  be  displaced,  and  the  vacancies 
thereby  occasioned,  supplied  from  such  class  or  division  by  new  election  in  the  man- 
ner aforesaid.  This  rotation  shall  be  applied  to  each  division  according  to  its  number, 
and  continued  in  due  order  annually.  And  for  the  election  of  Senators,  the  counties 
of  Brooke,  Ohio  and  Tyler,  shall  form  one  district :  the  counties  of  Monongalia, 
Preston  and  Randolph,  shall  form  another  district:  the  counties  of  Harrison,  Lewis 
■and  Wood,  shall  form  another  district:  the  counties  of  Kanawha,  Mason,  Cabell, 
Logan  and  Nicholas,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Greenbrier,  Monroe, 
Giles,  Pocahontas  and  Alleghany,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Wyihe, 
Grayson  and  Tazewell,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Washington, 
Russell,  Scott  and  Lee,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Berkeley,  Morgan 
and  Hampshire,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Jefferson  and  Frederick 
shall  form  another  district :  the  county  of  Shenandoah  shall  form  another  district : 
the  counties  of  Rockingham,  Hardy  and  Pendleton,  shall  form  another  district:  the 
counties  of  Augusta,  Bath  and  Rockbridge,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties 
of  Botetourt  and  Montgomery  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Loudoun 
and  Fairfax  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Fauquier  and  Prince  William 
shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Stafford,  King  George,  Westmoreland, 
Richmond,  Lancaster  and  Northumberland,  shall  form  another  district:  the  counties 
of  Culpeper,  Madison  and  Orange,  shall  form  another  district:  the  counties  of  Albe- 
marle, Nelson  and  Amherst,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Fluvanna, 
Goochland,  Louisa  and  Hanover,  shall  form  another  district:  the  counties  of  Spott- 
sylvania,  Caroline  and  Essex,  shall  form  another  district:  the  counties  of  King  & 
Queen,  King  William,  Gloucester,  Matthews  and  Middlesex,  shall  form  another  dis- 
trict:  the  counties  of  Accomack,  Northampton,  Elizabeth  City,  York  and  Warwick, 
and  the  city  of  Williamsburg,  shall  form  another  district:  the  counties  of  Charles 
City,  James  City,  New  Kent  and  Henrico,  and  the  city  of  Richmond,  shall  form  ano- 
ther district:  the  counties  of  Bedford,  Franklin  and  Patrick,  shall  form  another  dis- 
trict: the  counties  of  Campbell,  Henry  and  Pittsylvania,  shall  form  another  district: 
the  counties  of  Halifax  and  Mecklenburg  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of 
Charlotte,  Lunenburg,  Nottoway  and  Prince  Edward,  shall  form  another  district:  the 
counties  of  Buckingham,  Cumberland  and  Powhatan,  shall  form  another  district :  the 
counties  of  Amelia,  Chesterfield  and  Dinwiddle,  shall  form  another  district :  the  coun- 
ties of  Brunswick,  Greensville,  Southampton  and  Sussex,  shall  form  another  district : 
the  town  of  Petersburg,  and  the  counties  of  Prince  George,  Surry  and  Isle  of  Wight, 
shall  form  another  district:  and  the  counties  of  Nansemond,  Norfolk  and  Princess 
Anne,  and  the  borough  of  Norfolk,  shall  form  another  district. 

V.  Any  person  may  be  elected  a  Senator,  who  shall  have  attained  to  the  age  of 
thirty  years,  and  shall  be  actually  a  resident  and  freeholder  within  the  district,  or  duly 
qualified  to  vote  for  members  of  the  General  Assembly,  according  to  this  Constitution. 
And  any  person  niiay  be  elected  a  member  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  who  shall  have 
attained  the  age  of  twenty-five  years,  and  shall  be  actually  a  resident  and  freeholder 
within  the  county,  city,  town,  borough  or  election  district,  or  duly  qualified  to  vote 
for  members  of  the  General  Assembly,  according  to  this  Constitution  :  Provided,  that 
all  Ministers  of  the  Gospel,  and  Priests  of  every  denomination,  shall  be  incapable  of 
being  elected  members  of  eitlier  House  of  Assembly. 

VI.  The  General  Assembly  shall  meet  once  or  oftener  every  year.  Either  House 
may  adjourn  itself  respectively.  A  majority  of  each  House  shall  constitute  a  quorum 
to  do  business ;  but  a  smaller  number  may  adjourn  from  day  to  day,  and  shall  be 
authorised  to  compel  the  attendance  of  absent  members,  in  such  manner  and  under 
such  penalties  as  each  House  may  provide.  And  each  House  shall  choose  its  own 
Speaker,  appoint  its  own  oflicers,  settle  its  own  rules  of  proceeding,  and  direct  writs 
of  election  for  supplying  intermediate  vacancies. 

VII.  All  laws  shall  originate  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  to  be  approved  or  rejected 
by  the  Senate,  or  to  be  amended  with  the  consent  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  except 
money  bills,  which  in  no  instance  shall  be  altered  by  the  Senate,  but  wholly  approved 
or  rejected. 

VIII.  The  members  of  the  Assembly  shall  receive  for  their  services  a  compensation 
to  be  ascertained  by  law,  and  paid  out  of  the  public  Treasury ;  but  no  law  increasing  the 
compensation  of  the  members,  shall  take  effect  until  the  end  of  the  next  annual  session 
after  such  law  shall  have  been  enacted.  And  no  Senator  or  Delegate  shall,  during  the 
term  for  which  he  shall  have  been  elected,  be  appointed  to  any  civil  office  of  profit 
under  the  Commonwealth^  which  shall  have  been  created^or  the  emoluments  of  which 


DEBATES    OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


795 


shall  have  been  increased,  during  such  term,  except  such  offices  as  may  be  filled  hy 
elections  by  the  people. 

IX.  The  Governor,  the  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals  and  Superior  Courts,  and 
all  others  offending  against  the^tate,  either  by  mal-administration,  corruption,  neglect 
of  duty,  or  any  other  high  crime  or  misdemeanor,  shah  be  impeachable  by  the  House 
of  Delegates  ;  such  impeachment  to  be  prosecuted  before  the  Senate,  ■u-hich  shall  have 
the  sole  power  to  try  all  impeachments.  When  sitting  for  that  purpose,  the  Senate 
shall  be  on  oath  or  affirmation  :  and  no  person  shall  be  convicted  without  the  concur- 
rence of  two-thirds  of  all  the  members  of  the  Senate.  Judgment  in  cases  of  im- 
peachment, shall  not  extend  further  than  to  removal  from  office,  and  disqualification 
to  hold  and  enjoy  any  office  of  honor,  trust  or  profit,  under  the  Commonwealth  :  but 
the  party  convicted  shall  nevertheless  be  hable  and  subject  to  indictment,  trial,  judg- 
ment and  punishment,  according  to  law. 

X.  The  Legislature  shall  not  pass  any  bill  of  attainder;  or  any  ex  post  facto  law-; 
or  any  law  impairing  the  obliofation  of  contracts ;  or  any  law,  whereby  private  pro- 
perty shall  be  taken  for  public  uses,  without  just  compensation  ;  or  an}-  law  abridging 
the  freedom  of  Speech,  or  of  the  Press.  No  man  shall  be  compelled  to  frequent  or 
support  an_v  religious  worship,  place  or  ministry  whatsoever ;.  nor  shall  any  man  be 
enforced,  restrained,  molested  or  burthened,  in  his  body  or  goods,  or  otherwise  suffer, 
on  account  of  his  religious  opinions  or  belief ;  but  all  men  shall  be  free  to  profess,  and 
by  argument  to  maintain,  their  opinions  in  matters  of  religion,  and  the  same  shall  in 
no  wise  affect,  diminish  or  enlaro-e  their  civil  capacities.  And  the  Legislature  shall 
not  prescribe  any  religious  test  w-liatever ;  nor  establish  by  law  any  subordination  or 
preference  between  different  sects  or  denominations  :  nor  confer  any  peculiar  privi- 
leges or  advantages  on  any  one  sect  or  denomination  over  others ;  nor  pass  any  law 
requiring  or  authorising  any  religious  society,  or  the  people  of  any  district  "within 
this  Commonwealth,  to  levy  on  themselves  or  others,  any  tax  for  the  erection  or  re- 
pair of  any  house  for  public  worship,  or  for  the  support  of  any  church  or  ministry  ; 
but  it  shall  be  lefl  free  to  every  person  to  select  his  religious  instructor,  and  to  make  for 
his  support  such  private  contract  as  he  shall  please. 

XL  The  Legislature  may  provide  by  law  that  no  person  shall  be  capable  of  holding 
or  being  elected  to  any  post  of  profit,  trust  or  emolument,  civil  or  military.  Legisla- 
tive, Executive  or  Judicial,  under  the  Government  of  this  Commonwealth,  w^ho  shall 
hereafter  fight  a  duel,  or  send  or  accept  a  chailege  to  fight  a  duel,  the  probable  issue 
of  which  maybe  the  death  of  the  challenger  or  challenged,  or  who  shall  be  a  second 
to  either  party,  or  shall  in  any  manner  aid  or  assist  in  such  duel,  or  shall  be  know- 
ingly the  bearer  of  such  challenge  or  acceptance ;  but  no  person  shall  be  so  disquali- 
fied by  reason  of  his  having  heretofore  fought  such  duel,  or  sent  or  accepted  such 
challenge,  or  been  second  in  such  duel,  or  bearer  of  such  challenge  or  acceptance. 

XIL  Every  white  male  citizen  of  the  Commonwealth,  resident  therein,  aged  twenty- 
one  years  and  upwards,  being  qualified  to  exercise  the  Right  of  Suffrage  according 
to  the  former  Constitution  and  laws  ;  and  every  such  citizen,  being  possessed,  or 
whose  tenant  for  years,  at  will  or  at  sufferance,  is  possessed  of  an  estate  of  freehold 
in  land  of  the  value  of  twenty-five  dollars,  and  so  assessed  to  be  if  any  assessment 
thereof  be  required  by  law ;  and  every  such  citizen,  being  possessed,  as  tenant  in 
common,  joint  tenant  or  parcener,  of  an  interest  in  or  share  of  land,  and  having  aa 
estate  of  freehold  therein,  such  interest  or  share  being  of  the  value  of  twentj'-five 
dollars,  and  so  assessed  to  be  if  any  assessment  thereof  be  required  by  law  :  and  every 
such  citizen  being  entitled  to  a  reversion  or  vested  remainder  in  fee,  expectant  on  an 
estate  for  hfe  or  lives,  in  land  of  the  value  of  fifty  dollars,  and  so  assessed  to  be  if  any 
assessment  thereof  be  required  by  law^;.  (each  and  every  such  citizen,  unless  his  title 
shall  have  come  to  him  by  descent,  devise,  marriage  or  marriage-settlement,  having 
been  so  possessed  or  entitled  for  six  months)  ;  and  every  such  citizen,  who  shall  ovrn 
and  be  himself  in  actual  occupation  of  a  leasehold  estate,  with  the  evidence  of  title 
recorded  two  months  before  he  siiali  offer  to  vote,  of  a  term  originally  not  less  than 
five  years,  of  the  annual  value  or  rent  of  twenty  dollars :  and  every  such  citizen, 
who  for  twelve  months  next  preceding  has  been  a  house-keeper  and  head  of  a  family 
within  the  county,  city,  town,  borough  or  election  district  where  he  may  offer  to  vote, 
and  shall  have  been  assessed  with  a  part  of  the  revenue  of  the  Commonwealth  within 
the  preceding  year,  and  actually  paid  the  same— and  no  other  persons — shall  be  quali- 
fied to  vote  for  members  of  the  General  Assembly  in  the  county,  city,  town  or  bo- 
rough, respectively,  wherein  such  land  shall  lie,  or  such  house-keeper  and  head  of  a 
family  shall  live.  And  in  case  of  two  or  more  tenants  in  common,  joint  tenants  or 
parceners,  in  possession,  reversion  or  remainder,  having  interest  in  land,  the  value 
whereof  shall  be  insufficient  to  entitle  them  all  to  vote,  they  shall  together  have  as 
many  votes  as  the  value  of  the  land  shall  entitle  them  to ;  and  the  Legislature  shall 
by  law  provide  the  mode  in  which  their  vote  or  votes  shall  in  such  case  be  given  : 
Provided,  nevertheless,  That  the  Right  of  Suffrage  shall  not  be  exercised  by  any  per- 
Bon  of  unsound  mind,  or  who  shall  be  a  pauper,  or  a  non-commissioned  officer,  soldier, 


796 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


seaman  or  marine,  in  the  service  of  the  United  States,  or  by  any  person  convicted  of 
any  infamous  offence. 

XIII.  In  all  elections  in  tliis  Commonwealth,  to  any  office  or  place  of  trust,  honor 
or  profit,  the  votes  shall  be  given  ope^ly,  or  viva  voce,  and  not  by  ballot. 

XIV.  The  Chief  Executive  power  of  this  Commonwealth,  shall  be  vested  in  a 
Governor.  He  shall  hold  his  otHce,  during  the  term  of  three  years,  to  commence  on 
the  first  day  of  January  next  succeeding  his  election,  or  on  such  other  day,  as  may 
from  time  to  time,  be  prescribed  by  law  ;  and  he  shall  be  ineligible  to  that  office,  for 
three  years  next  after  his  term  of  service  shall  have  expired.  He  shall  be  elected  as 
follows  :  At  the  first  election  for  members  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  to  be  held  un- 
der this  Constitution,  and  every  third  year  thereafter,  at  the  times  and  places  of  hold- 
ing such  elections,  in  the  several  counties  and  corporate  towns  of  this  Common- 
wealth, the  persons  qualified  to  vote  for  members  of  the  General  Assembly  shall  vote 
also  for  a  Governor.  A  poll  of  the  votes  so  given  in  each  election  district  shall  be 
duly  kept,  authenticated,  certified,  and  laid  before  the  General  Assembly,  at  their 
next  annual  meeting,  in  such  manner  as  shall  be  prescribed  by  law.  These  polls  shall 
be  examined  by  a  joint  committee  of  both  Houses — the  number  of  votes  given  for 
each  person  as  Governor,  ascertained,  and  the  result  declared  by  resolution  of  the 
General  Assembly.  The  person  having  the  greatest  number  of  votes,  if  that  be  a 
majority  of  the  whole  number  given,  and  if  he  be  eligible  to  the  office,  shall  be  de- 
clared duly  elected  Governor.  If  no  such  person  have  a  majority  of  the  whole  num- 
ber of  votes  given,  then  it  shall  be  declared  that  no  election  hath  been  made  ;  and 
the  General  Assembly  shall  proceed,  by  joint  vote  of  both  Houses,  to  elect  a  Gover- 
nor, from  those,  how  many  soever  there  may  be.  who  being  eligible,  shall  have  the 
two  highest  numbers  on  the  polls. 

XV.  No  person  sliall  be  eligible  to  the  office  of  Governor,  unless  he  shall  have  at- 
tained the  age  of  thirty  years,  shall  be  a  native  citizen  of  the  United  States,  and  shall 
have  been  a  citizen  of  this  Commonwealth  for  five  years  next  preceding  his  election. 

XVI.  The  Governor  shall  receive  for  his  services  a  compensation  to  be  fixed  by 
law,  which  shall  be  neither  increased  nor  diminished,  during  his  continuance  in  office. 

XVII.  He  shall  take  care  that  the  laws  be  faithfully  executed ;  shall  communicate 
to  the  Legislature,  at  every  session,  the  condition  of  the  Commonwealth,  and  recom- 
mend to  their  consideration  such  measures  as  he  may  deem  expedient.  He  shall  be 
Commander-in-chief  of  the  land  and  naval  forces  of  the  State.  He  shall  have  power 
to  embody  the  militia,  when  in  his  opinion,  the  public  safety  shall  require  it;  to  con- 
vene the  Legislature,  on  application  of  a  majority  of  the  members  of  the  House  of 
Delegates,  or  when,  in  his  opinion,  the  interest  of  the  Commonwealth  may  require  it; 
to  grant  reprieves  and  pardons,  except  where  the  prosecution  shall  have  been  carried 
on  by  the  House  of  Delegates,  or  the  law  shall  otherwise  particularly  direct ;  to  con- 
duct, either  in  person,  or  in  such  manner  as  shall  be  prescribed  by  law,  all  intercourse 
with  other  and  foreign  States;  and  during  the  recess  of  the  Legislature,  to  fill,p-<? 
tempore,  all  vacancies  in  those  offices,  which  it  may  be  the  duty  of  the  Legislature  to 
fill  permanently  :  Provided,  That  his  appointments  to  such  vacancies  shall  be  by  com- 
missions to  expire  at  the  end  of  the  next  succeeding  session  of  the  General  As- 
sembly. 

XVIII.  Commissions  and  grants  shall  run  in  the  name  of  the  Commonwealth  of 
Virginia,  and  bear  test  by  the  Governor,  with  the  seal  of  the  Commonwealth  annexed, 

XIX.  The  General  Assembly  shall  provide  by  law,  for  the  discharge  of  the  Execu- 
tive duties,  in  all  cases  of  the  temporary  inability  of  the  Governor  to  discharge  them, 
and  of  vacancy  in  his  office,  by  reason  of  his  absence  from  the  seat  of  Governmentj 
sickness,  death,  removal  from  office,  resignation,  or  other  cause. 

XX.  The  manner  of  appointing  militia  officers  shall  be  provided  for  by  law ;  but  no 
officer  below  the  rank  of  a  Brigadier  General,  shall  be  appointed  by  the  General  As- 
sembly. 

XXI.  A  Treasurer  shall  be  appointed  annually  by  joint  vote  of  both  Houses. 

XXII.  The  Judicial  power  shall  be  vested  in  a  Supreme  Court  of  Appeals,  in  such 
Superior  Courts  as  the  Legislature  may  from  time  to  time  ordain  and  establish,  in  the 
County  Courts,  and  in  justices  of  the  peace.  The  Legislature  may  also  vest  such  ju- 
risdiction as  shall  be  deemed  necessary  in  Corporation  Courts,  and  in  the  magistrates 
who  may  belong  to  the  corporate  body.  The  jurisdiction  of  these  tribunals  shall  be 
regulated  by  law.  The  Judges  of  the  Supreme  Court  of  Appeals  and  of  the  Superior 
Courts  shall  hold  their  offices  during  good  behaviour,  or  until  removed  in  the  manner 
prescribed  in  this  Constitution  ;  and  shall,  at  the  same  time,  hold  no  other  office,  ap- 
pointment, or  public  trust ;  and  the  acceptance  thereof  by  either  of  them  shall  vacate 
his  Judicial  office. 

XXIII.  The  present  Judges  of  the  Supreme  Court  of  Appeals,  of  the  General 
Court,  and  of  the  Superior  Courts  of  Chancery,  shall  remain  in  office  until  the  termi- 
nation of  the  session  of  the  first  Legislature  "elected  under  this  Constitutionj  and  no 
longer 


DEBATES 


OF  THE 


CONVENTION. 


797 


XXIV,  The  Judges  of  the  Supreme  Court  of  Appeals  and  of  the  Superior  Courts 
shall  be  elected  b}-  the  joint  vote  of  both  Houses  of  the  General  Assembly. 

XXV^.  The  Judges  of  the  Supreme  Court  of  Appeals  and  of  the  Superior  Courts 
shall  receive  fised  and  adequate  salaries,  wliich  shall  not  be  diminished  during  their 
continuance  in  ofnce, 

XXVI.  On  the  creation  of  any  new  county,  justices  of  the  peace  shall  be  appointed, 
in  the  first  instance,  in  such  manner  as  may  be  prescribed  by  law.  "When  vacancies 
shall  occur  in  any  county,  or  it  shall,  for  any  cause,  be  deemed  necessary  to  increase 
their  number,  appointments  shall  be  made  by  the  Governor,  on  the  recommendation 
of  their  respective  County  Courts. 

XXVII.  The  Clerks  of  the  several  Courts,  when  vacancies  sliall  occur,  shall  be  ap- 
pointed by  their  respective  Courts,  and  the  tenure  of  office,  as  well  of  those  now  in 
office  as  of  those  who  may  be  hereafter  appointed,  shall  be  prescribed  by  law. 

XXVIII.  Judges  may  be  removed  from  office  by  a  concurrent  vote  of  both  Houses 
of  the  General  Assembly :  but  two-thirds  of  the  whole  number  elected  to  each  House 
must  concur  in  such  vote,  and  the  cause  of  removal  shall  be  entered  on  the  journals  of 
each.  The  Judare  asrainst  whom  the  Legislature  may  be  about  to  proceed,  shall  receive 
notice  thereof,  accompanied  with  a  copy  of  the  causes  alleged  for  his  removal,  at  least 
twenty  days  before  the  day  on  which  either  House  of  the  G-eneral  Assembly  shall  act 
thereupon. 

XXiX.  Writs  shall  run  in  the  name  of  the  Commonwealth  of  Virginia,  and  bear 
test  by  the  Clerks  of  the  several  Courts.  Indictments  shall  conclude  Against  the 
peace  and  dignity  of  the  Commonwealth. 

XXX.  The  Executive  Department  of  the  Government  shall  remain  as  at  present 
orgamized,  and  the  Governor  and  Privy  Councillors  shall  continue  in  office,  xmtU  a 
Governor  elected,  under  this  Constitution,  shall  come  into  office  ;  and  all  other  per- 
sons in  office  when  this  Constitution  shall  be  adopted,  except  as  is  herein  otherwise 
expressly  directed,  shall  continue  in  office,  till  successors  shall  be  appointed,  or  the 
law  shall  otherwise  provide ;.  and  all  the  Courts  of  Justice  now  existino"  shall  continue 
with  their  present  jurisdiction,  until  and  except  so  far  as,  the  Judicial  system  may  or 
shall  be  hereafter  otherwise  organized  by  the  Legislature. 

XXXI.  The  Declaration  of  Ptights  made  on  the  12th  June.  1776,  by  the  represen- 
tatives of  the  good  people  of  Virginia  assembled  in  full  and  free  Convention,  which 
pertained  to  them  and  their  posterity,  as  the  basis  and  foundation  of  Government,  re- 
quiring in  the  opinion  of  this  Convention  no  amendment,  shall  be  prefixed  to  this  Con- 
stitution, and  have  the  same  relation  thereto  as  it  had  to  the  former  Constitution  of 
this  Commonwealth. 

The  report  having  been  read  at  the  Clerk's  table,  the  Chair  announced  to  the  Con- 
vention that  it  was  open  to  amendment. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  enquired,  whether  this  form  of  a  Constitution  was  to  be  considered 
and  treated  as  an  amendment  to  the  amendments  agreed  upon  before,  or  a  substan- 
tive proposition,  now  presented  for  the  nrst  time  : 

The  Chair  replied,  that  it  was  to  be  considered  in  the  latter  point  of  view,  the  whole 
being  presented  as  one  substantive  proposition,  submitted  for  the  action  of  the  body. 

3Ir.  Fitzhugh  then  further  enquired,  whether  a  question  wels  to  be  taken  separately 
on  each  article  .- 

The  Chair  replied  in  the  negative  :  it  would  be  treated  much  as  a  bill  was  when  it 
had  received  its  first  and  second  reading,  it  would  be  open  to  amendments,  and  when 
all  the  amendments  had  been  agreed  upon,  the  general  question  would  then  be  put  on 
engrossing  the  report  as  amended,  for  a  third  reading.  The  Chair  did  not  consider 
itself  bound  to  require  tlie  form  of  a  first  and  second  reading  and  commitment,  as  was 
usual  with  bills. 

Mr.  Johnson  thought  differently,  and  that  it  ought  to  go  through  the  same  stages 
as  a  bill. 

The  Chair  rephed  that  such  had  not  been  the  course  in  other  Conventions :  In  Mas- 
sachusetts, they  estabUshed  it  as  one  of  their  rules  at  the  commencement  of  the  ses- 
sion, that  every  resolution  proposing  an  alteration  in  the  Constitution,  should  be  read 
on  two  several  days,  before  it  was  finally  acted  upon  :  when  the  committee  appointed 
to  reduce  the  Constitution  to  form,  made  their  report,  they  presented  it  in  the  form 
of  fourteen  articles  ;  and  the  Convention  by  an  order  which  they  made,  declared  that 
the  question  should  be  put  on  each  article  thus  :  '•'  Shall  tliis  article  of  amendment, 
be  proposed  to  the  people  of  this  Commonwealth,  for  their  ratification  and  adoption 
The  Chair  sedd,  tliat  after  the  engrossment,  he  would  have  presented  the  final  ques- 
tion in  this  form  :  Shall  tliis  Constitution  be  submitted  to  the  people  of  the  Common- 
wealth, for  their  ratification  and  adoption  'r'  And  when  all  the  amendments  had  been 
agreed  upon,  the  question  would  then  be  put  upon  engrossing  the  Constitution  as 
amended. 

A  desultory  debate  nov'  ensued  on  the  proper  course  to  be  pursued  in  respect  to 
the  report.    It  was  read  a  second  time  by  its  title — and  a  motion  being  then  made  to 


798 


DEBATES  OF 


THE 


CONVENTION. 


commit  it  to  a  Committee  of  the  Whole,  it  was  negatived.  The  debate  was  then  re- 
sumed :  and  after  some  time,  the  vote  just  passed  was  re-considered,  and  the  report 
was  committed  to  a  Committee  of  the  Whole  House,  and  made  the  order  of  the  day 
to-morrow.  Some  parts  of  it  havhig  been  added  by  the  Committee  in  MS.  since  the 
printing  of  the  report,  the  whole  was  ordered  to  be  re-printed  and  sent  to  the  mem- 
bers this  evening. 

The  House  then  adjourned. 


TUESDAY,  January  5,  1830. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Courtney  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

Pursuant  to  the  order  of  yesterday,  the  House  went  immediately  into  Committee 
of  the  Whole,  Mr.  Stanard  in  the  Chair. 

The  draft  of  the  new  Constitution  reported  by  the  Select  Committee,  was  then 
taken  up  and  read  section  by  section  for  amendment. 

To  the  first  three  sections  no  amendment  was  offered. 

The  third  having  been  read  (which  apportions  the  representation  in  the  House  of 
Delegates,  among  the  election  districts,) 

Mr.  Naylor  complained  of  the  arrangement,  particularly  as  to  its  bearing  on  the 
county  of  Berkeley — and  contended  that  Shenandoah  had  more  than  was  its  due, 
when  the  population  of  the  two  counties  was  compared  :  and  moved  that  one  Dele- 
gate be  taken  from  Shenandoah  and  given  to  Berkeley. 

Mr.  Boyd,  after  some  general  remarks  as  to  the  duty  of  equalizing  the  representa- 
tion so  far  as  was  consistent  with  preserving  the  existing  county  lines,  went  into  an 
examination  of  the  distribution  of  the  twenty-four  representatives  assigned  to  the 
Valley  among  its  fourteen  counties.  He  pointed  out  the  tliree  interests  into  which 
the  Valley  was  divided,  as  the  James  River  interest,  the  Shenandoah  interest,  and 
the  Potomac  interest.  He  complained  that  Shenandoah  should  have  three  Delegates 
and  a  Senator,  and  thought  two  Delegates  was  all  that  county  could  justly  claim.  He 
went  into  a  number  of  statistical  details  which  we  cannot  embody  in  the  general 
sketch  of  the  outlines  of  the  debate,  which  our  limits  prescribe  to  us. 

Mr.  Cooke  suggested  to  both  the  gentlemen  that  they  had  better  defer  their  amend- 
ment for  the  present,  as  another  motion  would  shortly  be  made  for  so  enlarging  the 
number  of  the  House  of  Delegates  as  to  enable  the  Select  Committee  to  make  a  more 
just  and  satisfactory  distribution  of  the  representation,  while  the  same  general  pro- 
portion as  at  present,  was  prescribed  among  the  four  great  divisions  of  the  State. 

They  thereupon  consented  to  withdraw  the  motion  for  the  present. 

Mr.  Claiborne  suggested  it  as  very  desirable  that  if  such  a  motion  should  be  made, 
it  should  be  done  with  as  little  delay  as  possible. 

Mr.  Cooke  then  said,  that  in  examining  the  details  on  the  general  subject,  it  had 
some  time  since  occurred  to  him,  that  many  practical  difficulties  and  complaints  might 
be  obviated,  by  taking  a  larger  number  than  one  hundred  and  twenty-seven  for  the 
House  of  Delegates:  he  believed  that  one  hundred  and  forty  would  be  a  number 
much  more  easily  apportioned  among  the  counties,  in  the  same  ratio  as  was  already 
agreed  upon.  That  would  give  thirty-two  to  the  trans- Alleghany  country  ;  twenty- 
seven  to  the  Valley  ;  forty-three  to  the  middle  country,  and  thirty-eight  to  the  district 
on  tide-water.  Mr.  C.  briefly  shewed  how  this  plan  would  afiect  the  respective  divi- 
sions of  the  State.  To  try  the  sense  of  the  Committee,  he  moved  to  strike  out  one 
hundred  and  twenty-seven,  and  insert  one  hundred  and  forty. 

Mr.  Leigh  stated  the  very  great  difficulties  which  Mr.  Tazewell  and  himself  had 
experienced  in  apportioning  the  thirty-four  Delegates  assigned  to  the  lower  country ; 
(which  was  their  task  in  the  Committee  :)  agreed  with  Mr.  Cooke,  that  a  larger  num- 
ber would  be  much  more  readily  apportioned,  but  expressed  his  wish  that  the  number 
should  not  be  fixed,  farther  than  to  assign  a  maximum,  say  one  hundred  and  fifty,  be- 
yond which  it  should  not  go.  Possibly  one  hundred  and  forty  might  prove  very  con- 
venient:  but  he  thought  it  best  to  leave  the  Committee  some  discretion.  He  con- 
cluded by  asking  a  division  of  the  question  on  striking  out  and  inserting. 

It  was  so  divided  accordingly,  and  being  put  first  on  striking  out, 

Mr.  Tyler  expressed  his  cordial  approbation  of  the  suggestion  of  Mr.  Leigh.  He 
disclaimed  all  idea  of  stickling  for  a  larger  representation  for  his  own  district — on  the 
plan  of  a  House  of  one  hundred  and  twenty-seven,  it  had  had  perfect  and  entire  jus- 
tice done  to  it :  but  should  the  larger  number  prevail,  an  arrangement  might  be  made 
which  would  bind  the  people  of  that  district  as  one  man  to  the  adoption  of  the  new 
Constitution.  They  had,  though  with  great  reluctance,  given  up  a  county  represen- 
tation as  impracticable :  but  the  plan  he  spoke  of  would  meet  all  their  wishes. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


799 


The  question  being  put  on  striking  out  the  number  one  hundred  and  twenty-seven, 
it  was  carried  :  Ayes  54. 

Mr.  Leigh  proposed  that  the  third  section  be  passed  by  for  the  present,  stating  it  to 
be  his  purpose  afterward  to  offer  a  resolution  expressive  of  the  view  he  had  submitted. 

Mr.  Cooke  thereupon  withdrew  his  motion  to  insert  one  hundred  and  forty. 

On  motion  of  iNIr.  Goode,  the  fourth  section  also  was  passed  by. 

The  fifth  section  having  been  read  as  follows  : 

"  V.  Any  person  may  be  elected  a  Senator  who  shall  have  attained  the  age  of  thirty 
3^ears,  and  shall  be  actually  a  resident  and  freeholder  within  the  district,  or  duly  qua- 
hfied  to  vote  for  members  of  the  General  Assembly  according  to  this  Constitution. 
And  any  person  may  be  elected  a  member  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  who  shall  have 
attained  the  age  of  twenty-five  years,  and  shall  be  actually  a  resident  and  freeholder 
wuthin  the  county,  city,  town,  borough  or  election  district,  or  duly  quahfied  to  vote 
for  members  of  the  General  Assembly  according  to  this  Constitution.  Provided, 
that  all  Ministers  of  the  Gospel  and  Priests  of  every  denomination,  shall  be  incapable 
of  being  elected  members  of  either  House  of  Assembly." 

It  was,  on  motion  of  Mr.  Leigh,  amended,  by  striking  out  the  words  "  or  duly" 
before  ''•  qualified  to  vote  :"  so  as  to  make  that  part  of  the  section  read,  any  person 
may  be  elected  a  Senator  who  shall  have  attained  the  age  of  thirty  years,  and  shall 
be  actually  a  resident  and  freeholder  within  the  district,  qualified  to  vote  for  members 
of  the  General  Assembly." 

The  same  amendment  was  made  in  the  latter  part  of  the  same  section,  so  as  to 
cause  it  to  read,  any  person  may  be  elected  a  member  of  the  House  of  Delegates 
who  shall  have  attained  the  age  of  twenty-five  years,  and  shall  be  actually  a  resident 
and  freeholder  within  the  county,  city,  borough  or  election  district,  qualified  to  votefoT 
members  of  the  General  Assf  mbly." 

The  sixth  section  was  then  read  as  follows  : 
VL  The  General  Assembly  shall  meet  once  or  oftener  every  year.  Either  House 
may  adjourn  itself  respectively.  A  majority  of  each  House  shall  constitute  a  quorum 
to  do  business  ;  but  a  smaller  number  may  adjourn  from  day  to  day,  and  be  authorised 
to  compel  the  attendance  of  absent  members,  in  such  manner  and  under  such  penal- 
ties as  each  House  may  provide.  And  each  House  shall  choose  its  own  Speaker,  ap- 
point its  own  ofiicers.  settle  its  own  rules  of  proceeding,  and  direct  writs  of  election 
for  supplying  intermediate  vacancies." 

On  motion  of  jMr.  Leigh,  the  word  "respectively,"  in  the  second  sentence,  was 
stricken  out  as  superfluous. 

Mr.  Chapman  moved  further  to  amend  the  section  by  striking  out  the  words,  Ei- 
ther House  may  adjourn  itself,"  and  to  insert  in  lieu  thereof,  Aeither  House,  during 
the  session  of  the  Legislature  shall,  without  the  consent  of  the  other,  adjourn  for  more 
than  three  days,  nor  to  any  other  place  than  that  in  which  the  two  Houses  shall  be 
sitting." 

In  supporting  the  amendment,  Mr.  Chapman  said,  that  his  object  was  to  prevent 
one  House  from  adjourning  (as  at  present)  for  two  or  three  weeks  while  the  other 
House  was  sitting.  It  might  be  convenient  for  Senators  who  lived  near  the  city  to 
go  home  to  their  families,  but  they  could  be  much  more  profitably  employed  in  at- 
tending the  debates  of  the  House  of  Delegates  during  their  leisure  time.  He  had 
himself  done  so  :  and  at  the  close  of  the  recess  he  was  already  well  acquainted  with 
the  nature  of  the  business  on  which  the  Senate  had  to  act,  wliile  to  those  who  had 
been  absent  all  was  new  and  strange. 

The  clause  allowed  the  Senate  to  adjourn  when  it  pleased ;  and  this  might  happen 
just  when  an  important  election  was  coming  on.  He  could  not  see  why  one  House 
was  not  as  much  bound  to  sit  and  do  the  public  business  as  the  other  :  both  were  alike 
servants  of  the  people.  In  other  State  Constitutions  there  was  a  provision  of  this 
kind,  as  also  in  that  of  the  United  States.  The  Senate  might  adjourn  to  a  different 
part  of  the  State  from  the  Lower  House,  and  at  a  different  season.  He  thought  they 
ought  to  be  together,  and  the  one  not  to  adjourn  without  the  other. 

Sir.  Leigh  said,  that  the  clause  proposed  to  be  stricken  out,  was  a  provision  copied 
from  the  old  Constitution.  There  was  not  a  single  instance  to  be  pointed  out,  where 
there  had  been  any  want  of  good  correspondence  between  the  two  Houses ;  nor  was 
there  likely  to  be,  unless  some  very  important  case  should  occur,  where  one  House 
might  suppose  the  other  to  be  pressing,  w-ith  undue  eagerness,  some  great  measure, 
which  ought  first  to  be  understood  and  pronounced  upon  by  the  people.  In  all  Con- 
stitutions of  Government  where  there  was  a  Legislature,  some  provision  was  made 
for  proroguing  their  session.  Before  tlie  revolution,  this  power  had  resided  in  the 
King,  and  his  representative,  the  Governor;,  but,  at  the  revolution,  that  power  was 
taken  away  from  the  Executive;  and  this  was  one  of  the  most  important  changes  in 
our  form  of  Government.  But,  as  the  power  of  prorogation  was  a  very  important  one, 
it  ought  to  be  preserved  somewhere  ;  in  one  or  other  House  of  the  Legislature.  It 
had  been  found  useful  in  practice,  to  repose  it  in  each  House^  as  it  respected  the  other  : 


800 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


that  was  virtually  the  effect  of  the  right  of  adjournment ;  and  it  had  hitherto  been 
found  to  occasion  no  inconvenience.  Mr.  L.  said,  he  could  readily  conceive  of  cir- 
cumstances, where  its  exercise  might  be  all  important  to  the  peace,  safety,  and  happi- 
ness of  the  community. 

Mr.  Nicholas  said,  he  had  long  thought  that  some  such  provision  ought  to  be  adopt- 
ed, as  was  now  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Giles.  As  to  the  power  of  proroga- 
tion, it  was  a  power  which  had  no  application,  except  to  the  whole  Legislature.  The 
question  was,  whether  one  House  should  have  the  power  of  adjourning  itself  for  a 
long  time,  without  the  consent  of  the  other If  this  was  prorogation,  the  Senate  was 
in  the  habit  of  proroguing  itself  every  session.  Mr.  N.  contended,  that  this  practice 
led  to  a  loss  of  time — the  one  House  would  not  exert  itself,  if  the  other  was  absent : 
or  if  it  did,  the  other,  on  its  return,  found  its  table  groaning  under  an  accumulation  of 
business.  In  times  of  faction,  one  flouse  might  defeat  a  measure  which  was  matured 
in  the  other,  by  adjourning  indefinitely.    Both  should  be  kept  at  their  post. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  the  gentleman  could  not  fail  to  perceive,  that  it  was  as  much  in  the 
power  of  the  Senate  to  defeat  an  obnoxious  measure,  by  a  direct  vote,  as  by  an  adjourn- 
ment ;  but  the  question  was,  whether  they  should  be  allowed  to  defeat  such  a  measure, 
by  a  direct  vote,  or  whether,  by  virtually  proroguing  them,  the  other  House  should 
give  time  for  the  question  to  be  brought  before  the  people.  Mr.  L.  argued  to  shew, 
that  the  public  business  would  not  be  advanced,  by  compelling  the  Senate  to  remain 
in  session,  when  they  had  nothing  to  do.  Being  only  a  revisory  body,  they  could  at 
any  time  overtake  the  Lower  House.  No  injury  had  resulted  from  the  occasional  ad- 
journments of  the  Senate,  in  the  early  part  of  the  session.  The  gentleman  had  said, 
that  tlie  power  of  prorogation  applied  only  to  the  Legislature  as  a  whole.  But  the  Le- 
gislature, as  a  whole,  consisted  of  two  bodies;  and  when  one  of  those  had  adjourned, 
the  Legislature  as  a  whole  was  no  longer  in  session ;  but  was  virtually  prorogued  by 
such  adjournment.  Cases  might  occur,  when  such  a  power  would  be  useful  and  im- 
portant. 

Suppose  the  House  of  Delegates  should  be  seized  with  the  idea  that  it  was  expedi- 
ent to  create  a  little  army,  or  a  captain's  company  of  Judges :  and  should  pass  a  bill 
for  that  purpose,  and  send  it  up  to  the  Senate.  No  doubt  if  such  were  the  will  of  the 
people,  it  must  be  done — the  people  must  always  do,  and  did  in  fact  do,  whatever  they 
pleased.  But  before  the  bill  should  pass  the  Senate,  suppose  the  Senate  should  ad- 
journ over  to  the  ensuing  session.  By  that  means  the  voice  of  the  people  would  have 
an  opportunity  of  being  heard.  He  had  no  idea  they  would  ever  be  guilty  of  such 
folly  :  but  he  had  merely  put  a  case  to  shew  the  operation  of  the  clause  proposed  to 
be  stricken  out.  Again — Suppose  the  Senate  to  be  sitting  to  try  an  impeachment 
brought  by  the  House  of  Delegates,  prosecuted  by  its  agents.  What  necessity  was 
there  that  it  should  continue  to  sit  in  its  Legislative  capacity  1  Might  it  not  adjourn 
as  a  Legislature,  and  continue  its  sittings  as  a  Judicature But  should  the  amend- 
ment prevail,  this  would  be  prevented. 

Mr.  Nicholas  said,  that  in  such  a  case  the  House  of  Delegates  would  not  refuse  con- 
sent, and  with  that  consent,  the  Senate  might  adjourn,  according  to  the  amendment, 
at  any  time.  If  he  could  subscribe  to  the  opinion  that  a  power  to  adjourn  in  one 
House,  was  a  power  to  prorogue  the  other,  he  was  sure  the  Convention  would  never 
assent  to  any  such  measure.  But  no  such  power  was  involved;  and  the  public  busi- 
ness would  be  accelerated  by  the  amendment. 

Mr.  Tazewell  said,  if  it  was  true  that  we  ought  to  consult  past  time  if  we  would 
provide  for  the  future,  the  House  iiad  on  this  subject  evidence  of  the  highest  order. 
The  clause  proposed  to  be  stricken  out  was  in  the  old  Constitution  :  this  power  of  pro- 
rogation had  existed  in  its  present  form  for  fifty-four  years,  without  occasioning  any 
practical  evil,  but  on  the  contrary  with  good  effect. 

The  Committee  had  proposed  nothing  new  :  the  regulation  already  existed :  why 
should  it  be  changed .''  But  farther.  Additional  power  had  now  been  given  to  the 
Senate  to  try  impeachments.  Who  was  to  try  them The  Senate  :  the  Senate  sitting 
as  a  Judicial  body.  But  if  this  power  to  adjourn  in  one  House  separately  from  the 
other  was  taken  away,  then  the  House  of  Delegates,  after  all  its  Legislative  business 
had  been  completed,  must  still  continue  in  session  so  long  as  the  Senate  should  sit  to 
try  the  impeachment.  But  this  was  surely  unnecessary.  There  could  be  no  need  of 
it  so  far  as  the  impeachment  was  concerned,  any  more  than  there  was  for  a  grand 
jury  to  remain  during  trial  in  court.  After  it  had  instituted  the  prosecution,  it  might 
appoint  a  committee  as  its  agents  to  conduct  it — what  need  for  the  whole  body  to  re- 
main There  could  be  none.  When  their  Legislative  function  was  discharged,  let 
them  have  the  power  to  adjourn.  Now,  therefore,  there  was  much  more  need  than  for- 
merly of  the  clause  :  and  it  had  done  no  harm  for  fifty-four  years. 

Mr.  Chapman  replied.  He  said,  that  admitting  such  to  be  the  fact,  it  was  reason 
sufficient  to  give  up  the  clause  that  it  might  by  possibility  do  harm ;  for  it  was  the 
business  of  the  Legislature  to  guard  against  the  possibility  of  evil  where  it  could  be 
done.    But  he  denied  the  fact  to  be  so.    He  believed  that  serious  evils  had  grown  out 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


it.  Loud  complaints  were  Iieard  of  the  practice  of  the  Senate  to  adjourn  from  the 
1st  December  to  1st  January.  At  this  very  time,  if  the  Senate  had  not  adjourned, 
Councillors  and  a  Governor  might  have  been  chosen,  and  the  elections  would  not 
have  been  postponed  to  the  close  of  the  session,  when  the  Assembly  was  pressed  with 
•business.  This  was  too  often  the  case  :  whereas  they  ought  to  be  conducted  in  the 
early  part  of  the  session  when  more  leisure  was  enjoyed.  Complaints  were  constantly 
heard  as  to  the  adjournments  of  the  Senate ;  and  he  remembered  one  case,  v/here  the 
Lower  House  had  been  detained  nearly  a  week  waiting  for  the  Senate.  As  to  the  ob- 
jection about  the  House  of  Delegates  being  obliged  to  remain  in  session  all  the  while 
the  Senate  was  trying  an  impeachment,  no  such  consequence  resulted  from  the 
amendment.  It  allowed  either  House  to  adjourn  with  the  consent  of  the  other;  and 
doubtless  the  Senate  would  not  refuse  its  consent  in  such  a  case.  In  every  act  of  the 
two  bodies,  the  consent  of  both  was  required  ;  why  not  in  this.''  As  the  clause  now 
stands,  the  Senate  might  adjourn  for  six  months — and  then  meet  at  Charlottesville  : 
there  was  nothing  to  prevent  it. 

Mr.  Johnson  said,  that  two  evils  were  apprehended  from  the  clause  :  one  was 
that  of  temporary  adjournments  during  the  sitting  of  the  other  House ;  the  other  was 
that  of  permanent  adjournment.  He  referred  to  his  own  experience  for  sixteen  years 
in  the  Senate,  and  testified,  that  no  evil  to  his  knowledge  had  grown  out  of  its  tem- 
porary adjournment,  when  it  had  nothing  in  the  world  to  do.  until  such  time  as  it 
would  probably  have  something  that  it  could  do.  Vvhether  those  who.  during  this 
time,  listened  to  the  reading  of  petitions  in  the  other  House,  or  sat  and  beheld 
them  laid  on  the  table  without  reading — got  more  benefit  than  those  who  returned 
for  a  short  time  to  their  families,  he  would  not  undertake  to  sa}''.  It  was  true  that 
complaints  were  made  b}'-  those  mem.bers  who  remained  ill  the  city:  and  by  those 
Delegates  who  found  their  constituents  dissatisfied  with  the  very  long  sessions  of  the 
House  of  Delegates,  and  who  endeavoured  to  throw  off" the  blame  on  the  adjournments 
of  the  Senate.  The  experiment  had  been  tried,  and  what  was  the  result  ?  The  Se- 
fiate  had  sat  nominally  the  whole  session  :  but  in  reality  they  could  not  command  a 
quorum,  nor  was  there  any  necessity  for  a  quorum  during  a  considerable  part  of  the 
time.  He  had  never  known  an  instance,  after  a  temporary  adjournment,  where  in 
ten  days  the  Senate  had  not  been  able  to  master  all  the  business  before  them,  and 
again  to  be  even  with  the  other  House  and  waiting  for  business. 

As  to  permanent  adjournment,  no  good  could  arise  from  denying  that  power. 
When  either  body  was  satisfied  it  had  done  all  it  ought  to  do,  it  was  to  no  purpose  to 
hold  it  together  and  send  it  business  from  the  other;  for,  none  could  compel  them  to 
consent  to  the  measures  proposed.  Both  bodies  were  needed,  in  order  to  pass  a  law, 
and  both  should  give  their  free  consent  to  adjourn.  This  was  the  usual  course,  and 
the  only  proper  one. 

Mr.  Coalter  said,  he  was  one  of  those  who  went  for  the  eiiect  of  measures.  It 
might  happen  that  the  Lower  House  would  reject  a  bill  by  a  bare  majority  when 
many  were  absent,  and  might  then  adjourn  to  prevent  the  re-consideration.  He  asked, 
if  there  could  have  been  any  necessity  for  the  last  fifteen  years  that  the  Legislature 
should  sit  from  the  1st  of  December  to  the  1st  of  March  ?  Though  the  Legislature 
was  an  electioneering  body,  and  had  the  opportunity  of  going  home  and  explaining 
to  their  constituents  why  they  sat  so  long,  yet  he  asked  if  those  long  sessions  of  the 
Legislature  had  not  had  full  as  much  efl:ect  in  producing  the  present  Convention  as 
the  odious  Judiciary  ?  who  were  not  an  electioneering  body,  and  could  give  no  ex- 
planation to  their  constituents  of  the  reasons  why  they  kept  causes  so  long  on  the 
docket.  The  House  threw  the  responsibility  on  the  Senate,  the  Senate  on  the  House. 
One  said,  the  Senate  is  away,  we  need  not  hurry  ourselves;  the  Senate  said,  the 
House  will  do  little  or  nothing  till  February.  But  the  people,  meanwhile,  had  found 
out  that  there  was  oppression ;  and  that  he  took  to  be  one  of  the  principal  reasons 
why  they  were  now  met  in  Convention.  Mr.  C.  said  he  was  for  stripping  them  of 
this  excuse — and  should  vote  for  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Giles. 

Mr.  Giles  said  he  felt  much  doubt  and  embarrassment  on  this  subject.  He  observed 
in  the  next  section  a  provision  which  had  a  bearing  on  the  present  amendment :  if 
that  section  should  be  altered  as  he  thought  it  ought  to  be,  then  the  amendment  now 
proposed  might  be  advantageous.    [He  then  read  the  seventh  section  as  follows  : 

"  VII.  All  laws  shall  originate  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  to  be  approved  or  re- 
jected by  the  Senate,  or  to  be  amended  with  the  consent  of  the  House  of  Delegates, 
except  money  bills,  which  in  no  instance  shall  be  altered  by  the  Senate,  but  wholly 
approved  or  rejected.'"] 

He  thought  serious  evil  resulted  from  the  adjournment  of  the  Senate  :  and  this  was 
to  be  attributed  to  their  not  having  the  power  to  originate  bills.  Though  greatly  at- 
tached to  the  old  Constitution,  he  thought  in  this  feafure  it  ought  to  be  amended.  Let 
the  Senate  have  power  to  originate  all  bills  but  money  bills.  The  power  had  been 
given  to  the  Senate  of  the  United  States,  and  with  advantage.    If  the  Senate  should 

101 


802 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


be  clothed  with  this  power,  tlien  it  would  become  important  that  it  should  not  adjourn 
without  the  consent  of  the  other  House. 

The  argument  from  the  power  of  the  Senate  to  try  impeachments  was  in  favour  of 
the  amendment,  and  not  against  it.  The  House  of  Delegates  must  be  in  being,  in 
order  to  prosecute  the  impeachment  before  the  other  House.  In  the  trial  of  Judge 
Chase  this  had  never  been  questioned,  and  the  utmost  expedition  was  urged  to  bring 
that  trial  to  an  issue  before  the  1st  of  March,  on  that  very  ground.  If  they  took  from 
the  Constitution  of  the  United  States  the  provision  about  trying  impeachments,  they 
ought  to  borrow  likewise  the  clause  now  proposed.  Mr.  G.  said  he  should  vote  for 
the  amendment. 

Mr.  Randolph  said,  he  should  vote  against  the  amendment,  and  that  on  a  principle 
which  he  had  learned  before  he  came  into  public  life  ;  and  by  which  he  had  been  go- 
verned during  the  whole  course  of  that  life,  that  it  was  always  unwise — yes — highly 
unwise,  to  disturb  a  thing  that  was  at  rest.  This  was  a  great  cardinal  principle  that 
should  govern  all  wise  statesmen — never  without  the  strongest  necessity  to  disturb 
that  which  was  at  rest.  He  should  vote  against  the  amendment  on  another  and  an 
inferior  consideration.  Whatever  opinion  might  have  been  expressed  as  to  a  multi- 
tude of  counsellors,  there  was  but  one  among  considerate  men  as  to  a  multiplicity  of 
laws.  The  objection  urged  by  the  gentleman  from  Richmond,  over  the  way,  (Mr. 
Nicholas,)  to  the  existing  clause,  was  precisely  one  of  the  strongest  motives  with  him 
for  prefering  the  amendment.  I  am  much  opposed,  said  Mr.  R.,  except  in  a  great 
emergency — and  then  the  Legislative  machine  is  always  sure  to  work  with  sufficient 
rapidity — the  steam  is  then  up — 1  am  much  opposed  to  this  "  dispatch  of  business."  The 
principles  of  free  Government  in  this  country,  (and  if  they  fail — if  they  should  be 
cast  away — -here — they  are  lost  forever,  I  fear,  to  the  world,)  have  more  to  fear  from 
over  legislation  than  from  any  other  cause.  Yes,  Sir — they  have  more  to  fear  from 
armies  of  Legislators,  and  armies  of  Judges,  than  from  any  other,  or  from  all  other 
causes.  Besides  the  great  manufactory  at  Washington,  we  have  twenty-four  labora- 
tories more  at  work,  all  making  laws.  In  Virginia  we  have  now  two  in  operation — 
one  engaged  in  ordinary  legislation,  and  another  hammering  at  the  fundamental  law. 
Among  all  these  lawyers.  Judges,  and  Legislators,  there  is  a  great  oppression  on  the 
people,  who  are  neither  lawyers,  Judges,  nor  Legislators,  nor  ever  expect  to  be- 
an oppression  barely  more  tolerable  than  any  which  is  felt  under  the  European  Go- 
vernments. Sir,  I  never  can  forget,  that  in  the  great  and  good  book  to  which  I  look 
for  all  truth  and  all  wisdom,  the  book  of  Kings  succeeds  the  book  of  Judges. 

Mr.  Mercer,  after  a  few  words  that  could  not  be  heard  from  the  confusion  in  the 
House,  was  believed  to  say,  that  experience,  if  it  v/as  to  be  consulted  at  all,  ought  to 
be  consulted  on  both  sides  of  the  question.  He  believed,  that  the  clause  which  it  was 
proposed  to  strike  out,  had  never  been  used  as  a  power  of  prorogation  from  the  foun- 
dation of  the  Government.  He  would  go  farther — On  inserting  the  clause,  he  be- 
lieved such  a  notion  never  once  entered  into  the  conception  of  the  framers  of  the  Consti- 
tution. The  power  to  adjourn  was  given  in  no  part  of  the  Constitution  but  this,  (save 
in  that  clause  where  a  certain  number  are  declared  to  be  a  quorum  to  adjourn,)  and 
it  never  had  been  used  for  the  purpose  of  proroguing  the  Assenibly,  but  only  for  the 
convenience  of  one  of  the  branches  of  that  body.  Experience,  therefore,  was  so  far 
on  the  side  of  the  friends  of  the  amendment. 

Should  the  House  of  Delegates  be  reduced  to  the  number  of  one  hundred  and 
twenty-seven,  greater  dispatch  of  business  might  be  hoped  for.  At  all  events,  mere 
courtesy,  if  nothing  else,  required  one  House  to  notify  the  other  of  its  intention  to 
adjourn,  when  the  adjournment  was  to  be  for  several  weeks,  and  to  enquire  v/hether 
there  was  any  pressure  of  business,  which  would  render  such  a  step  inconvenient,, 
That  would  be,  in  practice,  the  whole  result  of  the  amendment.  The  Senate  would 
make  this  enquiry,  and  the  House  of  Delegates,  unless  there  were  strong  reasons  to 
the  contrary,  would  always  give  its  assent.  The  question  had  been  argued,  as  if  the 
one  body  would  arbitrarily  retain  the  other  in  session,  when  there  was  no  good  reason 
for  doing  so.  But  there  were  surely  no  grounds  for  such  a  presumption.  As  to  the 
case  of  an  army  of  Judges  being  created  by  the  Lower  House,  the  Senate  needed  no 
proroguing  power  to  thwart  such  a  plan — it  had  only  to  reject  it  by  its  vote — and  then 
the  measure  could  go  to  the  people,  and  they  could  let  their  pleasure  be  known  to 
their  Delegates  at  the  next  session.  Mr.  M.  concluded,  by  insisting  that  no  evil  had 
followed  such  a  measure  as  was  proposed  by  the  amendment,  though  it  had  been  tried 
by  all  the  other  States,  and  by  the  General  Government;  so  that  experience  was  for 
and  not  against  it. 

Mr.  George,  in  reply  to  Mr.  Johnson,  referred  to  the  session  of  1817-18,  when  the 
House  of  Delegates  had  passed  upwards  of  ninety  revised  bills  during  the  recess  of  the 
Senate,  of  which  that  body,  on  its  return,  acted  only  on  twenty — and  the  House  had, 
in  consequence,  to  take  up  the  other  seventy ,  and  pass  them  again  the  next  session. 
He  had  been  for  nine  sessions  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  not  one  had  passed 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


803 


without  very  serious  complaints  on  the  subject  of  the  Senate's  adjournment,  and  in 
one  session,  the  House  had  to  wait  a  week  for  the  Senate. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  he  well  remembered  the  period  to  which  the  gentleman  alluded— 
and  the  Senate  had  never  done  a  wiser  thing,  than  to  pass  no  more  than  twenty  of 
those  revised  bills — and  it  would  have  done  a  yet  wiser  thing,  if  it  had  retained  them 
still  longer.  In  tico  sessions  the  Legislature  had  revised  laws,  which  had  been  the 
work  of  forty  sessions  of  the  same  body. 

The  question  was  now  taken  on  the  amendment,  and  decided  in  the  affirmative — 
Ayes  50. 

So  the  House  resolved,  that  neither  House  should  have  the  power  of  adjourning 
for  m.ore  than  three  days,  without  the  consent  of  the  other. 
Mr.  Summers  moved  the  following  amendment : 

"  But  if  vacancies  shall  occur  by  death  or  resignation,  during  the  recess  of  the  Ge- 
neral Assembly,  such  writs  may  be  issued  by  the  Governor,  under  such  regulations 
as  may  be  prescribed  by  law." 

The  amendment  was  briefly  explained  by  the  mover. 

Mr.  Tazewell  and  Mr.  Randolph  suggested  cases  in  which  some  difficulty  would 
arise,  and  considered  the  amendment  as  trenching  on  the  privileges  of  the  Houses  to 
judge  of  the  qualifications  of  their  own  members. 

Mr.  Summers  replied,  and  denied  any  such  consequence  to  be  possible,  because  the 
Legislature  was  itself  to  prescribe  whatever  rules  and  limitations  it  might  judge  ex- 
pedient to  guard  its  own  rights. 

Mr.  Scott  moved  to  amend  the  amendment,  by  inserting  after  the  word  "  vacancies," 
**  occurring  by  death  or  resignation;"  v\'hich  was  agreed  to. 

The  amendment  of  Mr.  Summers,  as  thus  amended,  was  carried — Ayes  51. 

Mr.  Mercer  moved  tlie  following  : 
Each  House  shall  judge  of  the  election,  qualification  and  returns  of  its  members, 
may  punish  its  members  for  disorderly  behaviour,  and  with  the  concurrence  of  two- 
thirds,  expel  a  member,  but  not  a  second  time  for  the  same  offence." 

The  amendment  was  agreed  to. 

Mr.  Mercer  then  moved  the  following  : 

*^  Senators  and  Delegates  shall,  in  all  cases,  except  treason,  felony,  or  breach  of  the 
peace,  be  privileged  from  arrest  during  the  session  of  the  General  Assembly,  and  in 
going  to  and  returning  from  the  same  ;  and  for  any  speech  or  debate  in  either  House, 
they  shall  not  be  questioned  in  any  other  place." 

Mr.  Leigh  opposed  the  amendment  as  unnecessary,  parliamentary  law  being  well 
established  and  understood. 

Tlie  amendment  was  rejected. 

Mr.  Mercer  offered  the  following : 
Each  House  shall  keep  a  Journal  of  its  proceedings,  and  publish  all  such  parts 
thereof  as  the  public  welfare  may  not  require  to  be  kept  secret — and  the  ayes  and 
noes  on  any  question  shall,  at  the  request  of  one-tenth  of  the  members  present,  be 
entered  on  the  Journals." 

This  also  was  rejected  by  the  House. 

The  seventh  section  was  then  read  as  follows  : 
VH.  All  laws  shall  originate  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  to  be  approved  or  re= 
jected  by  the  Senate,  or  to  he  amended  with  the  consent  of  the  House  of  Delegates, 
except  money  bills,  which  in  no  instance  shall  be  altered  by  the  Senate,  but  wholly 
approved  or  rejected." 

Mr.  Mercer  moved  to  amend  it,  by  striking  out  the  following  :  Except  money 
bills,  which  in  no  instance  shall  be  altered  by  the  Senate,  but  wholly  approved  or 
rejected." 

The  amendment  was  rejected — Ayes  35,  Noes  not  counted. 

Mr.  Giles  now  moved  farther  to  amend  the  section,  so  as  to  make  it  read,  "All 
money  bills  shall  originate  in  the  House  of  Delegates  only,  and  in  no  instance  shall 
be  altered  in  the  Senate,  but  wholly  approved  or  rejected." 

Mr.  P.  P.  Barbour  said,  that  the  effect  of  the  amendment  would  be,  to  give  to  the 
Senate  power  to  originate  all  bills,  (except  money  bills,)  equally  with  the  House  of 
Delegates.  He  was  opposed  to  such  a  plan.  He  had  had  some  little  experience  in 
another  Legislature,  where  such  a  power  was  exercised  ;  and  there,  nothing  was  more 
common,  than  for  the  Senate  and  the  House  of  Representatives,  to  be  engaged,  simul- 
taneously, in  acting  on  the  same  subject.  The  consequence  of  this,  was,  necessarily, 
a  great  v/aste  of  time.  When  a  proposition  had  been  offered  in  the  House,  and  failed 
there,  nothing  was  of  more  e very-day  occurrence,  than  merely  to  cross  over  to  the 
Senate,  and  there  try  the  same  thing. 

Mr.  B.  said  he  objected  to  the  amendment  on  principle  also.  The  object  sought  in 
separating  the  Legislature  into  two  distinct  bodies,  was,  that  public  measures  might 
receive  more  mature  reflection  before  they  were  finally  resolved  upon.  The  Senate 
was  made  less  numerous  than  the  other  House  :  and  if  its  duties  were  confined  to 


804 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


those  of  a  revisory  kind,  tlien,  in  case,  from  any  cause,  (and  the  causes  were  various 
that  might  lead  to  such  a  result,)  a  measure  threatening  to  the  public  interest  should 
hastily  be  passed  in  the  more  numerous  branch  of  the  Legislature,  the  Senate  hav- 
ing more  leisure,  more  calmness,  and  hence,  in  general,  more  accuracy  in  its  delibera- 
tions and  decisions,  would  supply  the  means  of  checking  such  a  result,  and  either 
correcting  its  injurious  features,  or  preventing  its  passage.  -But  if  the  Senate  was  to 
have  the  power  of  originating  all  measures,  the  same  as  the  other  House,  its  revisory 
character  would  be  lost,  and  with  it,  a  great  benefit  to  the  body  politic.  Both  Ilouses 
miglit  then  be  engaged  at  the  same  time  upon  the  same  object :  and  the  Common- 
wealth would  thus  lose  tJie  entire  benefit  conteni))lated  in  dividing  the  Legislature 
into  two  branches — the  benefit  of  greater  deliberation  and  greater  accuracy  in  the  ex- 
amination of  all  matters  of  legislation. 

Mr.  Giles  said,  that  with  great  deference  for  the  opinion  of  the  President  of  this 
body,  he  had,  from  his  own  experience,  drawn  a  directly  opposite  conclusion.  It  was 
true  that  in  some  instances,  both  Legislative  bodies  in  the  General  Government  were 
acting  on  tlie  same  subject  at  the  smue  time ;  but  the  effect  of  this  was  to  accelerate, 
not  to  retard  tlie  public  business.  His  experience  had  been  pretty  equally  divided 
between  the  Senate  and  the  House  of  Representatives — he  had,  as  Chairman  of  a 
Committee,  originated  many  measures  in  both.  In  Virginia,  such  an  arrangement 
would  fill  up  the  vacant  time  of  the  Senate,  and  would  prevent  delay,  inconvenience 
and  expense.  As  to  any  increased  deliberation  resulting  from  giving  to  one  House 
the  originating,  and  to  the  other  the  supervisory  power,  no  such  consequence  resulted 
in  practice.    His  experience  on  the  subject  led  him  to  a  conclusion  precisely  opposite. 

He  agreed  witli  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte,  (Mr.  liandolph,)  that  the  country 
suftered  under  too  mucli  legislation.  But  this  was  not  to  be  attributed  to  the  fact  that 
the  Senate  was  not  in  session.  It  arose  from  our  habits,  it  was  occasioned  by  sche- 
mers— political  schemers — for  now-a-days  all  men  in  the  nation  were  politicians,  and 
as  soon  as  they  got  into  the  Legislature,  they  considered  it  a  duty  to  ofier  some  scheme 
to  that  body  :  and  whether  oftered  late  or  early  in  the  session,  it  must  go  through. 
The  evil  arose  from  Legislative  schemers  :  and  schemers  of  all  kinds.  In  the  House 
of  Delegates  there  were  usually  a  va«t  number  of  young  lawyers,  who  thought  in  the 
course  of  their  practice  tliat  they  had  discovered  some  inconvenience  that  ought  to 
be  remedied — and  tliey  insisted  that  the  House  should  adopt  their  notions  and  carry 
them  into  the  laws  :  thus  their  notions — their  whims  and  blunders,  were  often  re- 
duced to  law.  He  sliould  rejoice  witfi  the  gentleman  from  Ciiarlolte,  if  this  could  be 
put  down:  But  giving  the  Senate  power  to  originate  bills  would  not  produce  any 
such  effects. 

Mr.  Randolph  said,  he  was  very  happy  to  have  the  sanction  of  the  opinion  of  the 
Chief  Magistrate  of  the  Commonwealth  for  any  thing  he  said  on  that  floor.  But  he 
would  suggest  to  him,  with  much  deference,  whether  the  best  wity  to  lay  the  evil 
spirit  which  had  so  much  vexed  that  gentleman  as  well  as  himself  would  be  to  intro- 
duce that  spirit  into  the  Senate 

He  was  afraid  tliey  should  see  tlie  same  game  played  between  the  two  Houses  here, 
which  he  had  seen  played  between  tlie  two  Houses  elsewhere  :  if  you  will  pass  my 
bill,  I  will  pass  yours.  With  mucli  deference  he  would  suggest  to  the  gentleman 
from  Amelia,  whether  his  amendment  would  not  be  likely  to  convert  the  Senate  from 
being  a  grave  and  deliberative  body  into  as  heated  an  assembly  as  the  other  House  : 
whether  it  would  not  tend  to  introduce  parly  spirit  into  tJie  Senate — where,  so  long 
as  their  duty  was  confined  to  revising  and  amending  the  bills  sent  up  to  them,  it  must 
cceteris  parilius  have  less  play  ? 

It  was  an  old  adage — and  all  old  adages  were  true — that  tlie  by-stander  saw  most 
of  the  game.  He  looked  with  a  cool  eye  upon  the  play  :  but  if  they  permitted  the 
Senate  to  cu/,  in  and  become  participntors  in  the  game,  one  of  the  great  functions  of 
that  body,  if  not  totally  destroyed,  would  be  in  a  great  degree  impaired.  Why  was 
the  Senate  confined  to  so  small  a  number  ?  Because,  as  a  revisory  body,  it  needed  not 
be  more  numerous.  But,  if  it  was  to  originate  bills  as  the  other  House  did,  then  it 
should,  like  that  House,  consist  of  the  immediate  representatives  of  the  people.  It 
was  true,  they  were  to  be  saved  from  having  money  bills  originated  in  the  Senate — 
and  this  was  a  most  wise  provision.  He  would  never  consent  that  a  man  should  put 
his  hand  into  his  pocket  who  did  not  live  in  his  county — a  Senator — in  a  big 
county — out  there — whom  lie  neither  knew  nor  cared  for — and  who  very  probably 
knew  and  cared  still  less  about  him.  Such  a  man  would  know  that  his  big  county 
would  return  him  again,  let  him  tax  him,  (Mr.  R.)  as  he  might.  No — none  but  a 
freeholder,  and  of  his  own  county  too,  should  ever  mulct  him — or  thrust  liis  hand 
into  his  pocket.  He  submitted  wliether  the  amendment  would  not  introduce  this 
priirilns  itfrcs  fcrcndl,  of  which,  the  gentleman  com])lained,  into  the  Senate  also. 

The  question  was  taken  on  Mr.  Giles's  amendment,  and  it  was  decided  in  the  ne- 
gative. 

So  the  House  refused  to  give  the  Senate  the  power  of  originating  bills. 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION, 


S05 


The  eighth  and  ninth  sections  were  then  read. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Bedford  moved  to  amend  the  nintli  section,  by  requiring  three- 
fifths  instead  of  two-thiids  of  the  Senate  to  convict  a  Judge  :  but  the  amendment  was 
rejected. 

The  tenth;  eleventh  and  twelfth  sections  were  then  read. 

In  the  twelfth  section.  Mr.  Nicholas  renewed  the  amendment  (so  often  proposed 
and  rejected.)  of  requiring  a  definite  amount  of  tax  to  be  paid  by  a  housekeeper,  in 
order  to  entitle  him  to  the  right  of  sulfrage:  but  it  was  rejected — Ayes  36. 

Mr.  Coalter  said,  he  was  anxious  to  see  a  provision  introduced  for  separate  elections, 
and  he  moved  the  following  : 

"  And  provided,  also,  that  there  shall  be  no  separate  elections  in  any  one  county, 
but  the  Legislature  may  from  time  to  time  provide  that  the  polls  shall  be  kept  open 
not  exceeding  three  days,  in  such  counties  as  shall  be  designated  by  law." 

Mr.  C.  brietly  explained  and  supported  the  amendment.  He  said  he  was  for  having 
a  Legislature  that  should  be  responsible  to  the  people  :  but  how  a  member  could  re- 
spond to  the  people  in  ten  different  places  at  the  same  time,  he  never  could  under- 
stand. Mr.  C.  cited  the  case  of  an  individual  who  had  voted  for  a  tax,  and  against 
whom  great  prejudice  was  in  consequence  excited  ;  but  who  had  been  saved  from 
losing  his  place,  by  being  able  to  explain  his  conduct  to  the  whole  collection  of  voters 
at  once  :  if  tliey  had  met  in  six  or  eight  different  places,  he  would  infallibly  have  lost 
his  election.  Such  an  occasion  was  valuable,  as  being  in  politics  a  school-day  for  the 
people.  He  concluded  hj  adverting  to  the  value  of  character,  and  the  necessity  of 
responsibility. 

Mr.  TJiompson  said  :  He  hoped  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Stafford, 
(Judge  Coalter.)  would  not  prevail.  It  was  to  him  matter  of  surprise  as  well  as  re- 
D-ret,  that  our  system  of  separate  elections  had  incurred  the  ban  of  that  gentleman's 
displeasure  :  whatever  objections  might  be  made  to  it  in  tlaeory,  he  would  take  upon 
himself  to  say,  that  the  Leo-islature  of  Virginia  had  never  adopted  a  wiser  policy,  than 
that  of  granting  separate  elections  to  all  counties  that  petitioned  for  them.  It  was  a 
policy,  whatever  might  be  said  to  the  contrary,  founded  on  the  plainest  principles  of 
justice  and  expediency;  and  a  pohcy  that  had  been  vindicated  by  experience.  He 
was  aware  that  in  its  commencement,  doubts  had  been  entertained  of  its  expediency; 
the  objections  urged  by  the  mover  of  the  amendment  had  occurred  to  others,  and  Mr. 
T.  acknowledged  that  he  himself,  had  at  one  tune,  entertained  doubts  as  to  the  pro- 
priety of  authorising  separate  elections:  those  doubts,  however,  had  long  been  dis- 
pelled, and  he  was  now  the  most  zealous  advocate  of  tiie  policy.  It  was  right  in  prin- 
ciple, and  in  practice  most  beneficent.  The  Legislature  had  now  become  so  tho- 
roughly convinced  of  its  expediency,  that  whenever  a  separate  election  was  asked,  it 
was  granted.  It  had  become  a  part  of  the  fixed  and  settled  policy  of  the  State  ;  a  ge- 
neral separate  election  law  had  been  enacted,  and  he  believed  the  Legislature  were 
prepared,  if  any  one  would  take  the  trouble  to  move  it,  to  pass  a  law,  conferring  upon 
tlie  County  Courts,  the  unlimited  power  of  establishing  as  many  precinct  elections  in 
their  counties  as  they  should  from  time  to  time  deem  necessary,  prescribing  for  the 
govermnent  of  these  elections  some  general  provisions. 

Mr.  T.  asked,  if  in  a  Government  of  the  people,  a  Government  that  rested  upon 
pubhc  sentiment,  it  was  not  desirable  and  expedient  to  afford  every  facihty  for  the  ex- 
pression of  the  popular  will And  how  could  that  will  be  so  well  and  so  effectuaJlv  ex- 
pressed as  at  the  polls  ?  As  many  voters  should  be  brought  to  the  polls  as  possible  : 
it  was  the  duty  of  every  man  to  vote.  Your  Legislature  had  required  tliat  everv  man 
should  vote,  and  had  prescribed  a  penalty  for  the  failure.  Was  it  not  therefore  just, 
as  well  as  politic,  to  bring  the  place  of  election  as  near  to  tlie  home  of  the  voter  as 
possible  ?  To  many  of  them  it  was  inconvenient,  if  not  impossible,  to  attend  an  elec- 
tion at  their  courthouses.  They  could  not  spare  the  time  to  go  so  far — the  money  to 
pay  expenses  during  their  absence — they  could  not  lose  the  services  of  a  plough-horse 
at  a  busy  season  of  tlie  year  for  one  or  two  days :  and  if  they  chanced  to  be  without  a 
horse  (as  some  voters  were)  it  would  be  hard  "to  require  tliem  under  a  penalty  to  walk 
to  their  courthouses,  perhaps  twenty  or  thirty  miles,  (and  in  some  counties  more.)  for 
the  purpose  of  exercising  their  Right  of  Suffrage.  It  was  convenient,  it  was  rio  ht.  it 
was  expedient,  (and  what  the  voters  had  a  right  to  require  at  the  hands  of  the  Leo-is- 
lature) to  bring  home  the  elections  as  nearly  as  possible,  to  their  own  homes,  at  least 
to  their  respective  neighbourhoods. 

Mr.  T.  said,  it  was  with  him  no  little  recommendation  to  the  system,  that  it  was  an 
approximation  to  the  plan  of  ward  elections,  recommended  to  us  by  that  great  Apostle 
of  human  liberty,  the  illustrious  Jefferson,  whose  wisdom  and  forecast  he  now  more 
highly  appreciated  than  ever. 

The  gentleman  from  Stafford,  (Judge  Coalter.)  had  objected  to  separate  elections; 
that  it  deprived  the  representative  of  the  opportunity  of  responding  to  aJl  his  consti- 
tuents, of  rendering  an  account  of  his  stewardship,  of  vindicating  his  com-se,  and  the 
measures  he  had  supported,  and  of  answering  charges,  if  any  were  preferred  against 


806 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


him.  He  had  objected  also,  that  they  increased  the  power  of  demagogues,  enabUng 
them  to  wield  the  democracy  of  the  country  to  their  own  purposes,  to  mislead  the  peo- 
ple, whose  interests  they  would  betray;  and  "last  though  not  least,"  these  separate 
elections  in  the  opinion  of  the  gentleman,  had  broken  up,  and  would  break  up  the 
schools  of  political  wisdom,  wliich  the  good  people  of  the  Commonwealth  annually 
attended,  when  they  all  assembled  at  their  Court-houses,  to  hear  the  speeches  of  their 
candidates  for  election  or  re-election.  To  support  his  first  objection,  the  gentleman 
had  referred  to  a  single  case,  (the  case  of  his  friend  from  Augusta,  which  he,  Mr.  T. 
then  heard  for  the  first  time)  which  he  supposed  had  established  the  utility  of  a  gene- 
ral assembly  of  the  county  to  enable  a  representative  to  vindicate  his  course.  He 
doubted  not  that  the  sentence  of  approval  then  pronounced,  was  deserved,  and  he  as 
little  doubted,  that  it  had  been  the  same  whether  the  people,  whom  the  gentleman 
from  Augusta  represented,  had  been  assembled  at  one  or  several  places.  Mr.  T.  said 
there  were  other  times,  places  and  opportunities  of  vindication,  besides  the  day  and 
place  of  a  county  election.  There  was  all  the  time  between  the  adjournment  of  the 
Legislature  and  the  election.  There  was  time  and  opportunity  enough  allowed  for 
personal  communication  between  the  representative  and  constituent — and  more  than 
all,  tbere  was  a  free  press,  which  affords  the  very  best  means  of  defence  against 
groundless  accusation.  All  these  were  within  the  power  of  the  representative,  and 
besides,  he  would  always  meet  a  large  portion  of  his  constituents  at  the  court-house 
on  the  day  of  election,  no  matter  how  many  separate  election  districts  are  established 
in  the  county. 

As  to  the  argument  of  evil  from  the  power  of  demagogues,  Mr.  T.  said  it  was  pe- 
culiarly gratuitous  and  unfounded.  He  had  supposed  that  the  best  mode  of  enhanc- 
ing the  power  of  that  class  of  politicians,  was  to  assemble  the  people  in  as  large 
masses  as  possible.  He  supposed  it  was  upon  masses  they  operated,  through  the  in- 
strumentality of  a  popular  cant  or  slang,  or  eloquence,  if  you  please,  appealing  to  the 

fassions  and  prejudices  of  men,  which  we  are  told,  in  large  assemblies  are  contagious, 
t  had  been  said  elsewhere,  in  reference  to  the  popular  assemblies  of  Athens,  that  if 
every  Athenian  were  a  Socrates,  still  every  Athenian  assembly  would  he  a  mob.  It  was 
an  argument  against  pure  democracy  in  favour  of  representative;  if  there  was  any 
truth  in  it,  for  any  purpose ;  certainly  for  none  more,  than  to  establish  the  utility  of 
separate  elections.  If  you  wish  to  temper  the  fierce  spirit  of  democracy,  this  is  pre- 
cisely the  best  mode.  If  you  fear  tumults,  popular  excesses,  riots,  and  all  the  infinite 
evils  connected  in  the  imaginations  of  some  gentlemen,  with  elections,  this  is  the  way 
to  eschew  them.  Mr.  T.  thought  the  separate  elections,  in  their  effects  on  the  politi- 
cal body,  might  without  impropriety  be  likened  to  the  Franklin  rods — the  one  dis- 
armed the  clouds  of  their  destructive  elements,  the  other  disarmed  democracy  of  its 
tumults,  its  riots,  its  excesses  and  excitements,  and  all  those  manifold  horrors  which 
present  themselves  to  the  imaginations  of  gentlemenj  who  labour  under  the  phobia^ 
if  I  may  so  speak  of  democracy. 

The  last  objections  of  the  gentleman  from  Stafford  coming  from  him,  struck  him 
with  the  greatest  surprise.  There  was  surely  a  strange  inconsistency  between  his  ar- 
gument to-day  and  his  votes  heretofore.  If  it  were  true  that  assemblies  of  the  people 
were  such  valuable  schools  for  politics,  when  the  people  assembled  to  elect  members 
of  Assembly,  why  should  they  be  less  so  if  the  people  were  permitted  to  assemble 
and  elect  their  Governor  and  some  other  public  functionaries.''  Why  not  open  as 
many  schools  as  possible  to  the  political  pupils,  the  people.?  As  much  as  tlie  gentle- 
man seems  to  estimate  these  schools  for  political  instruction,  he  has  voted  in  this 
Convention  to  have  as  few  of  them  as  possible.  There  was  an  inconsistency  in  this 
which  he  could  not  reconcile.  He  had  never  before  seen  an  ardent  friend  of  general 
instruction  voting  to  reduce  the  number  of  seminaries,  and  diminish  the  means  of 
instruction.  Mr.  T.  repeated  that  the  sj^stem  of  precinct  elections,  which  had  re- 
ceived the  countenance  of  the  Legislature,  and  which  were  becoming  every  day 
more  popular,  as  their  beneficent  operation  and  effects  were  more  and  more  developed 
by  experience,  in  his  opinion,  deserved  any  thing  at  the  hands  of  this  Convention, 
rather  than  its  reprobation.  And  after  all,  if  it  were  even  obnoxious  to  the  objec- 
tions urged  by  the  gentleman,  and  devoid  of  the  paramount  considerations  of  advan- 
tage, which  justify  its  continuance,  it  is  not  a  fit  subject  for  the  deliberations  of  those 
who  are  deputed  to  frame  a  code  of  fundamental  laws.  He  therefore  trusted  that  the 
amendment  would  be  rejected  by  the  Convention. 

The  question  being  taken,  the  amendment  was  rejected. 

The  thirteenth  section  having  been  read,  (which  completes  that  part  of  the  Consti- 
tution relating  to  the  Legislative  Department,) 

Mr.  Wilson  moved  that  the  Committee  rise;  but  the  motion  was  rejected  :  Ayes  32. 

The  other  sections  were  now  read  seriatim,  down  to  the  twenty-seventh  inclusive. 

Mr.  Leigh  moved  to  amend  the  twenty-seventh  section  by  prefixing  thereto  the 
words  following ; 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


807 


"  The  Attornej/  General  shall  be  appointed  by  joint  vote  of  the  two  Houses  of  the 
General  Assembly,  and  cominissioned  by  the  Governor ;  and  shall  hold  his  office 
during  the  pleasure  of  the  General  Assembly,"  and  carried  without  opposition. 

Mr.  Leigh  moved  further  to  amend  the  section  by  adding  at  the  end  of  it  the  fol- 
lowing : 

"  The  sheriffs  and  coroners  shall  be  nominated,  by  the  respective  County  Courts, 
and  when  approved  by  the  Governor,  shall  be  commissioned  by  him.  The  justices 
shall  appoint  constables ;  and  all  fees  of  the  aforesaid  officers  shall  be  regulated  by 
law  :"  which  was  agreed  to. 

The  twenty-eighth  section  was  next  read  as  follows  : 

"  XXVIII.  Judges  may  be  removed  from  office  by  a  concurrent  vote  of  both 
Houses  of  the  General  Assembly ;  but  tw-o-thirds  of  the  whole  number  elected  to 
each  House  must  concur  in  such  vote,  and  the  cause  of  removal  shall  be  entered  on 
the  Journals  of  each.  The  Judge  against  whom  the  Legislature  may  be  about  to  pro- 
ceed, shall  receive  notice  thereof,  accompanied  with  a  copy  of  the  causes  alleged  for 
his  removal,  at  least  twenty  days  before  the  day  on  which  either  House  of  the  Gene- 
ral Assembly  shall  act  thereupon." 

Mr.  Giles  moved  to  amend  the  section  by  striking  out  in  the  former  part  of  it,  the 
words the  whole  number  elected  to,"  before  the  words  "  each  House:"  so  as  to 
make  that  part  of  the  section  read,  "  but  two-thirds  of  each  House  must  concur  in 
such  vote."  So  as  to  remove  a  Judge  by  a  vote  of  two-thirds  of  the  members  present, 
and  not  two-thirds  of  all  the  members  of  the  body. 

Mr.  G.  supported  his  amendment  in  a  speech,  which  was  replied  to  by  Mr.  Leigh. 

The  question  was  then  taken  and  decided  in  the  negative — Ayes  41,  Noes  43. 

The  twenty-ninth  section  was  read  as  follows  : 

"  XXIX.  Writs  shall  run  in  the  name  of  the  Commonwealth  of  Virginia,  and  bear 
test  by  the  clerks  of  the  several  courts.  Indictments  shall  conclude  Against  the  peace 
and  dignity  of  the  Commonwealth." 

Mr.  Cooke  now  read  an  amendment  in  the  words  following,  which  he  intended 
hereafter  to  offer  to  this  section  : 

"  When  a  new  county  shall  hereafter  be  created,  it  shall  be  the  duty  of  the  General 
Assembly  to  make  provision  by  law,  for  securing  to  the  people  of  such  new  county 
an  adequate  representation  in  the  Legislative  bf)dies.  And,  if  the  object  cannot  be 
otherwise  effected,  it  shall  be  competent  to  the  General  Assembly  to  re-apportion  the 
whole  representation  of  such  one  of  the  four  great  districts  aforesaid,  as  shall  contain 
such  new^  county  within  its  limits,  as  defined  by  this  Constitution.  But  it  shall  not  be 
competent  to  the  General  Assembly,  under  any  circumstances,  to  increase  or  dimin- 
ish the  number  of  Delegates  herein  before  assigned  to  the  four  great  districts  afore- 
said. It  shall,  moreover,  be  competent  to  the  General  Assembly  to  re-apportion, 
from  time  to  time,  the  representation  of  the  Senate,  of  the  people  of  the  two  great 
divisions  aforesaid  of  the  Conmion wealth,  respectively.  But  the  number  of  Senators 
assigned  by  this  Constitution  to  the  two  great  divisions,  to  wit :  nineteen  to  the 
Eastern,  and  thirteen  to  the  Western,  shall  remain  unchanged." 

The  thirtieth  section  was  read  as  follows : 
XXX.  The  Executive  Department  of  the  Government  shall  remain  as  at  present 
organized,  and  the  Governor  and  Privy  Councillors  shall  continue  in  office,  until  a 
Governor,  elected  under  this  Constitution,  shall  come  into  office — and  all  other  per- 
sons in  office  when  this  Constitution  shall  be  adopted,  except  as  is  herein  otherwise 
expressly  directed,  shall  continue  in  offi.ce  till  successors  shall  be  appointed,  or  the 
law  shall  otherwise  provide ;  and  all  the  courts  of  justice  now  existing  shall  continue 
with  their  present  jurisdiction,  until  and  except  so  far  as,  the  Judicial  system  may  or 
shall  be  hereafter  otherwise  organized  by  the  Legislature." 

Mr.  Cooke  read  another  amendment,  w^hich  he  proposed  hereafter  to  offer  to  this 
scheme,  as  follows  : 

Provisions  for  carrying  this  Constitution  into  effect : 

"  I.  It  shall  be  the  duty  of  the  Executive  Department  of  the  existing  Govern- 
ment, so  soon  as  all  the  returns  required  by  the  twentieth  section  of  the  act  of  the 
General  Assembly,  entitled  an  act  to  organize  a  Convention,"  shall  have  been  made, 
if  it  shall  appear  that  a  majority  of  all  the  votes  given  is  for  ratifying  this  amended 
Consfitution,  forthwith  to  make  proclamation  of  the  fact. 

'•'  II.  And  it  shall  moreover  be  the  duty  of  the  Executive  Department,  in  and  by 
such  proclamation,  to  command  the  sheriffs  and  other  officers  directed  bv  law  to  hold 
and  superintend  elections  under  the  penalty  of  dollars  for  failing  to  obey 

such  command,  to  open  polls  in  their  respective  counties,  cities,  towns  and  boroughs, 
and  in  the  election  districts  established  by  law  in  their  respective  counties,  on°the 
[first  Monday  in  November,  in  the  present  year,]  for  the  election  of  a  Delegate  or 
Delegates,  as  the  case  may  be,  to  represent  the  counties,  towns,  boroughs,  and  dis- 
tricts, respectively,  mentioned  and  described  in  the  third  article  of  this  Constitution, 


808 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


and  of  a  Senator  to  represent  each  of  the  Senatorial  districts  described  in  the  fourth 
article. 

"  III.  So  soon  as  the  election  of  Delegates  and  Senators  shall  have  been  made, 
the  previously  said  existing-  Senate  and  House  of  Delegates,  elected  under  the  old 
Constitution,  shall  cease  to  have  legal  and  constitutional  existence. 

"  IV.  Should  any  of  the  contingencies  herein  before  mentioned,  render  it  neces- 
sary or  proper  to  convene  a  General  Assembly,  after  such  election  shall  have  been 
made,  and  before  the  time  herein  after  appointed  for  the  first  regular  annual  meeting 
of  the  General  Assembly  under  this  amended  Constitution,  the  new  General  Assem- 
bly shall  be  convened  by  the  Executive  Department  holding  its  power  and  authority 
under  the  old  Constitution. 

V.  The  first  regular  General  Assembly  under  this  amended  Constitution,  shall 
■convene  and  assemble  at  the  Capitol  in  the  City  of  Richmond,  [on  the  first  Monday 
in  January,  in  the  year  1831.] 

"  VI.  The  powers  and  duties  of  the  Executive  Department  under  the  old  Consti- 
tution, cease  and  determine,  and  those  of  the  Executive  Department  under  the  new 
Constitution,  shall  commence,  as  soon  as  may  be  after  the  commencement  of  the  first 
regular  session  of  the  General  Assembly  elected  under  the  new  Constitution. 

"  VII.  All  ofiicers,  whether  civil  or  military,  holding  their  offices  under  the  old 
Constitution,  whose  cases  are  not  herein  provided  for,  shall  continue  to  hold  their  offi- 
ces under  the  new  Constitution,  by  the  same  tenure,  and  for  the  same  time,  as  under 
the  old  Constitution. 

"  VIIL  All  the  Courts  of  Justice  now  existing  in  this  Commonwealth  shall  con- 
tinue, with  the  same  jurisdiction  as  heretofore,  until  the  said  Courts  shall  have  been 
modified  or  abolished,  or  the  jurisdiction  thereof  modified  or  taken  away,  by  an  Act 
or  Acts  of  the  General  Assembly,  made  under  the  restrictions  and  limitations  herein 
before  provided." 

The  thirty-first  (and  last)  section  was  then  read. 

And  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  having  thus  gone  through  the  draught  of  an 
.amended  Constitution,  reported  by  the  Select  Committee, 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Summers,  it  rose  and  reported  the  same,  with  the  amendments, 
to  the  House. 

m  CONVENTION, 

Mr.  Leigh  offered  the  following  resolution  : 
Resolved,  That  the  third  article  of  a  draught  of  a  Constitution  reported  by  the  Se- 
lect Committee,  be  re-committed,  with  instructions  to  the  Committee  to  apportion 
Delegates  among  the  several  counties,  towns,  cities  and  boroughs  of  the  Common- 
wealth, so  that  the  number  of  Delegates  shall  not  exceed  one  hundred  and  fifty,  and 
•so  that  tlie  same  proportion  of  the  whole  Delegation  be  assigned  to  each  of  the  four 
great  divisions  of  the  Commonwealth,  as  is  contained  in  the  said  article.  And  that 
■the  fourth  article  be  re-committed  to  the  same  Committee." 

Mr.  Clay  tor  moved  the  following  amendment  to  the  instructions  moved  by  Mr. 
Leigh  : 

"  And  that  the  said  Committee  be  instructed  so  to  arrange  the  Senatorial  Districts, 
as  to  conform  as  near  as  may  be  to  the  principle  on  which  the  members  of  the  Senate 
are  apportioned  between  the  Districts  East  and  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge." 

In  advocating  this  amendment, 

Mr.  Claytor  observed,  he  would  simply  assign  the  reason  why  he  made  this  motion. 
It  would  be  apparent  to  any  person  who  would  take  the  trouble  to  make  twenty 
figures,  that  the  scheme  of  representation  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  adopted 
by  this  Convention,  was  based  upon  the  white  population  of  the  State  as  ascertained 
by  the  Census  of  1820.  The  white  population  of  the  State  as  ascertained  by  that 
Census,  was  603,081 ;  divide  this  number  by  thirty-two,  the  number  of  Senators,  the 
quotient  is  18,846.  The  white  population  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  was  254,208 ;  di- 
vide this  by  18,846,  and  it  gives  thirteen  and  a  fraction  of  a  little  less  than  one-half. 
The  white  population  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge  was  348,873 ;  divide  this  by  18,846,  and 
it  gives  eighteen  and  a  fraction  of  rather  over  one-half.  The  gentleman  from  Albe- 
marle has  merely  given  the  benefit  of  these  fractions  to  the  East.  This  is  his  only 
variation  from  the  basis  of  white  population  by  the  Census  of  1820.  What  I  ask  is, 
that  this  rule  thus  determined  by  this  Convention  to  be  just  as  between  the  two  great 
divisions  of  the  State,  may  be  applied  in  the  distribution  of  representation  amongst 
the  smaller  sub-divisions,  that  in  the  distribution  of  power,  the  people  I  have  the 
honor  in  part  to  represent,  may  have  the  full  benefit  of  the  rule  adopted  by  the  Con- 
vention as  the  just  measure  of  political  power  in  the  State.  Have  the  Committee 
done  them  this  justice  in  their  report.?  To  show  that  they  have  not,  it  is  only  necessary  to 
state  the  fact,  that  the  district  as  reported  by  the  Committee,  composed  of  the  counties 
of  Bedford,  Franklin,  and  Patrick,  contained  by  the  Census  of  1820  a  white  popula- 
tion of  22,956;  that  composed  of  the  counties  of  Campbell,  Pittsylvania  and  Henry, 
24,374 ;  while  that  composed  of  the  counties  of  Halifax  and  Mecklenburg  contained 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


809 


only  16,310;  that  composed  of  the  counties  of  Buckingham,  Cumberland,  and  Pow- 
hatan, 13,803;  and  that  composed  of  Petersburg,  Prince  George,  Surry,  and  Isle  of 
Wight,  only  13,741.  It  was  not  my  intention  to  make  a  speech  upon  this  subject,  but 
simply  to  submit  these  few  statements  in  explanation  of  the  reasons  which  have  indu- 
ced this  motion — and  with  them  I  leave  it  to  the  Convention. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  he  hoped  such  instructions  would  not  be  given  to  the  Committee, 
as  it  would  only  operate  to  trammel  them  and  still  farther  to  increase  a  difficulty 
which  was  already  greater  than  any  one  could  possibly  conceive,  who  had  not  at- 
tempted the  task  assigned  them.  The  Committee  had  done  their  best:  but  as  to  per- 
fect equality,  the  thing  was  unattainable,  if  regard  was  to  be  had  to  existing  county 
limits.  The  Committee  had  made  the  several  districts,  upon  the  whole,  as  nearly 
equal  as  they  knew  how  to  malie  them.  Where  a  county  was  defective  in  its  repre- 
sentation in  the  House  of  Delegates,  the  Committee  had  endeavoured  to  compensate 
the  inequality  by  increasing  its  weight  in  the  Senate ;  so  as,  on  the  ichole,  to  do  all  the 
justice  in  their  power.  The  whole  effect  of  the  present  amendment  would  be  to  en- 
cumber them  with  new  trammels. 

Mr.  Scott  spoke  for  some  time  without  being  heard  distinctly  by  our  Reporter — the 
House  being  in  some  confusion.  When  he  was  heard,  he  was  denying  having  sup- 
ported the  compromise  of  Mr.  Gordon  on  the  avowed  idea  of  its  having  been  based 
upon  either  of  the  contested  principles  which  had  been  proposed  as  a  basis  of  Repre- 
sentation :  he  advocated  it  with  the  express  disavowal  of  its  being  established  on  the 
white  basis,  the  mixed  basis,  or  Federal  numbers.  The  gentleman  from  Campbell 
had  found  an  accidental  coincidence  between  some  of  its  numbers  and  the  white  ba- 
sis according  to  the  Census  of  1820  :  but  it  had  an  equal  and  even  greater  degree  of 
coincidence  with  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  (Mr.  Upshur.)  Mr. 
S.  concluded,  by  entering  his  protest  against  being  understood  as  advocating  this  or 
that  principle  of  representation  as  involved  in  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Albe- 
marle :  it  had  been  brought  forward  as  a  compromise,  and  as  such  he  voted  for  it. 

Mr.  Claytor  addressed  the  House  as  follows  : 

I  know  nothing  whatever  of  the  basis  on  which  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle, 
founded  his  plan,  but  from  the  results  of  calculations,  1  take  it  for  granted,  however, 
that  he  must  have  had  some  general  basis  which  has  induced  him  to  select  this  par- 
ticular apportionment  in  preference  to  any  other  ;  and  as  the  gentleman  from  Fau- 
quier denies  the  sufficiency  of  the  evidence,  I  have  offered  to  prove  that  that  basis  is, 
in  fact  the  white  population  of  1820,  with  an  arbitrary  variation  of  mere  fractions.  I 
must  be  permitted  to  submit  to  the  House  the  results  of  a  few  more  calculations  upon 
that  subject.  1  have  shewn  that  in  the  division  of  pov\'er  in  the  Senate  between  the 
East  and  the  West,  the  only  variation  from  tlie  white  population  of  1820  was  giving 
a  fraction  to  the  East.  Let  us  now  examine  the  apportionment  in  the  House  of  De- 
legates. The  whole  white  population  of  the  State  in  1820,  was  603,081 — divide  this 
by  127,  the  number  of  members  in  the  proposed  House  of  Delegates,  and  the  result 
gives  4,749  as  the  average  number  entitled  to  elect  a  Delegate  upon  that  basis.  Com- 
pare the  apportionment  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  as  proposed  by  the  gentleman 
from  Albemarle,  with  this  calculation,  and  the  result  is  as  follows  : 

The  Western  district,  white  population,  133,112 — 29  members  is  one  for  4,590  :  the 
Valley  white  population  121,090 — 24  members  is  one  for  5,045.  Middle  district  white 
population,  187,186 — 40  members  is  one  for  4,679.  Tide-water  district  white  popula- 
tion 161,687 — 24  members  is  one  for  4,755;  thus  shewing  in  each  district  only  a 
slight  fractional  variation  from  the  white  population  of  1820.  Taking  the  average  of 
the  four  districts,  and  the  result  is  4,767,  varying  only  18  from  the  precise  number 
given  by  the  equal  representation  of  the  white  population  as  ascertained  by  the  cen- 
sus of  1820.  Sir,  all  these  results  may  be  purely  accidental,  but  to  my  mind  they 
look  much  like  design,  and  as  I  have  been  unable  to  discover  any  other  basis  which 
would  produce  results  approximating  so  nearly  to  those  arrived  at  by  the  gentleman 
from  Albemarle,  my  mind  could  not  avoid  the  conclusion  that  this  is  the  true  basis  of 
his  proposition.  But,  Sir,  grant  to  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier,  that  it  is  not — I 
only  ask  that  his  basis,  whatever  it  may  be,  whether  it  be  the  v/hite  population  of 
1820,  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Northampton,  or  that  of  any  other  gentleman,  may 
be  fairly  worked  out  to  its  results— that,  that  which  this  Convention  has  establishe'd 
as  just  for  the  whole  State,  inay  be  equally  applied  to  all  its  parts-  and  not  after  their 
establishing  one  rule  (arbitrary  if  you  please)  for  the  State,  will  fit  another  equally  or 
more  arbitrary  in  its  character  for  districts,  by  the  operation  of  which  the  people  of 
that  particular  section  of  the  State  I  have  the  honour  in  part  to  represent,  are  to  lose 
a  large  portion  of  the  political  power,  they  would  be  justly  entitled  to,  if  the  general 
rule  you  have  adopted  were  fairly  and  justly  applied.  But,  Sir,  have  the  Committee 
adopted  any  such  just  rule  in  their  apportionment If  they  have  adopted  any  rule 
whatever,  it  approaches  more  nearly  to  the  Federal  number  as  ascertained  by  the 
census  of  1820,  than  any  other  I  have  been  able  to  discover — and  surely  it  will  not  be 
contended  that  this  is  the  basis  adopted  by  the  gentleman  from  iVlbemarle— but  even 

102 


810 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


in  the  application  of  this  rule,  unjust  as  it  is,  it  has  been  unjustly  applied  to  the  par- 
ticular section  of  country  in  question.  Sir,  upon  Federal  numbers,  the  two  upper 
districts  South  of  James  River  and  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  are  quite  too  large. 

Sir,  I  know  not  how  other  gentlemen  representing  that  section  may  feel  upon  this 
subject — but,  Sir,  I  should  be  ver}'-  unwilling  to  meet  my  constituents,  after  giving 
my  consent  to  any  arrangement  which  would  leave  11,000  white  persons  unrepre- 
sented in  the  two  Senatorial  districts,  embracing  that  section  of  country  with  which 
they  are  locally  united — almost  a  sufficiency  to  entitle  them  to  another  Senator.  Sir, 
this  injustice  never  shall  be  done  to  them  with  my  consent — I  never  can,  never  will, 
vote  for  any  such  arrangement. 

But  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  says,  that  any  person  who  will  attempt  to  make 
a  more  equal  arrangement,  observing  the  county  limits,  will  find  it  a  difficult  task. 
Sir,  I  have  taken  the  trouble  to  re-arrange  the  counties,  composing  a  few  of  the  dis- 
tricts as  reported  by  the  Select  Committee,  according  to  the  white  population  of  1820, 
and  will  trouble  the  Convention  with  some  of  the  results,  which  I  think  they  will 
perceive  are  less  unequal  than  those  of  the  Select  Committee. 
Five  districts  as  arranged  by  the  Select  Committee. 

JVhite  population  of  1820. 

Bedford,  10,953  Charlotte, 

Franklin,  ■  8,227 

Patrick,  3,776 


Campbell, 

Pittsylvaniaj 

Henry, 


Halifax, 
Mecklenburg, 


22,956 

8,447 
12,626 
3,321 

24,394 

8,758 
7,710 

16,468 


Lunenburg, 
Nottoway, 
Prince  Edward, 


Buckingham, 
Cumberland, 
Powhatan, 


5,005 
3,873 
2,805 
4,627 

16,310 

7,345 
3,966 
2,492 

13,803 


I  should  propose  to  re-arrange  those  five  districts  as  follows 


Patrick, 
Henry, 
Franklin, 


Pittsylvania, 
Hahfax, 


Bedford, 
Campbell, 


3,776 
3,321 
8,227 

15,324 

12,626 
8,758 

21,384 

10,953 
8,447 

19,400 


Mecklenburg, 
Charlotte, 
Lunenburg, 
Nottoway, 


Prince  Edward, 
Buckingham, 
Cumberland, 
Powhatan, 


7,710 
5,005 
3,873 
2,805 

19,393 

4,627 
7,345 
3,966 
2,492 

18,430 


Tt  v;ill  at  once  be  perceived,  that  the  only  material  variation  from  equality  in  this 
arrangement,  is  in  the  two  first  districts :  this,  which  is  far  less  than  the  inequality  of 
the  districts  as  reported  by  the  Committee,  is  rendered  less  important,  by  the  fact, 
that  there  is  an  intimate  connection  in  all  matters  of  local  interest  throughout  much 
the  greater  part,  if  not  the  whole  of  those  two  districts — and  taking  the  average  of 
the  two,  it  gives  18,354,  within  a  mere  fraction  of  the  number  which  ought  to  give  a 
Senator.  1  have  also  made  a  different  arrangement,  from  that  proposed  by  the  Select 
Committee,  of  the  counties  composing  the  six  upper  Senatorial  districts  on  the  South 
side  of  James  River  and  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  as  reported  by  the  Committee,  with 
the  details  of  which  I  shall  not  now  trouble  the  Convention — but  merely  observe  that 
it  produces  results  at  least  as  nearly  approximating  to  equality  upon  the  principle  for 
which  I  contend,  as  in  those  before  referred  to,  while  at  the  same  time,  a  proper  de- 
gree of  attention  is  paid  to  the  local  interests  and  feelings  of  the  counties  composing 
the  several  districts  ,  thus  demonstrating  that  neither  county  boundaries  nor  local  in- 
terests present  any  serious  obstacle  to  arranging  the  Senatorial  districts  in  that  section 
of  the  State,  with  that  practical  approximation  to  equality  and  proper  regard  to  the 
just  claims  of  the  people  whom  I  have  the  honour  in  part  to  represent,  f^r  which  I 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


811 


contend.  Sir,  this  is  all  the  amendment  I  have  oifered,  professing  to  instruct  the  Com- 
mittee what  to  do,  and  I  trust  it  will  be  adopted. 

The  question  was  now  taken  on  Mr.  Claytor's  amendment  and  decided  in  the  ne- 
gative :  Ayes  34,  Noes  46. 

So  the  amendment  to  the  instructions  was  rejected. 

Mr.  Leigh  now  moved  to  amend  the  instructions,  by  adding  that  the  fourth  section 
also  (relating  to  the  apportionment  of  the  Senate)  be  referred  to  the  same  Committee, 
Which  having  been  agreed  to,  the  House  then  adjourned. 


WEDNESDAY,  January  6,  1830. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Courtney  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

The  Chair  announced  that  the  Select  Committee  were  not  yet  ready  to  report  on 
the  subject  of  apportionment. 

The  House  then  proceeded  to  take  up  the  amendments  reported  by  the  Committee 
of  the  Whole  to  the  draught  of  the  Constitution. 

The  first  amendment  was  in  the  fifth  section,  which  reads  as  follow^s  : 

"  V.  Any  person  may  be  elected  a  Senator  w^ho  shall  have  attained  to  the  age  of 
thirty-years,  and  shall  be  actually  a  resident  and  freeholder  within  the  district,  or 
duly  qualified  to  vote  for  members  of  the  General  Assembly  according  to  this  Consti- 
tution :  And  any  person  may  be  elected  a  member  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  who 
shall  have  attained  the  age  of  Lwenty-five  years,  and  shall  be  actually  a  resident  and 
freeholder  within  the  county,  city,  town,  borough  or  election  district,  or  duly  qualified 
to  vote  for  members  of  the  General  Assembly  according  to  this  Constitution  :  Pro- 
vided, That  all  Ministers  of  the  Gospel  and  Priests  of  every  denomination  shall  be 
incapable  of  being  elected  members  of  either  House  of  Assembly." 

The  amendment  proposed  to  strike  out  the  words  "  or  duly"  where  they  occur  in 
the  parts  of  the  section  relating  to  the  qualifications  of  members  of  the  Senate  and 
of  the  Assembly. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  said,  that  if  the  amendment  left  the  clause  such  as  to  confine  the 
election  to  the  two  Houses  of  Assembly,  to  the  real  freeholders,  who  were  such  in 
truth,  he  should  be  in  favour  of  it;  but  understanding  it  to  leave  mere  nominal  free- 
holders eligible,  he  should  vote  against  it. 

A  conversation  took  place  between  Messrs.  Leigh  and  Fitzhugh,  as  to  the  value  of  - 
a  freehold — the  latter  contending,  that  a  man  migiit  own  twenty-five  acres  of  land, 
so  poor  as  not  to  be  worth  one  dollar,  which  the  former  believed  scarcely  possible. 

Mr.  Claytor  said,  that  he  was  taken  wholly  by  surprise,  not  having  paid  particular 
attention  to  this  amendment  in  Committee  of  the  Whole.  The  principle  was  entirely 
new,  that  those  w^ho  had  a  right  to  elect,  should  not  have  also  the  right  to  be  elected. 
He  had  never  heard  such  a  position  advanced  before.  He  could  not  but  admire  the 
strange  course  pursued  in  this  body  :  if  the  power  of  selection  was  to  be  exercised 
by  any  body  but  the  people,  the  utmost  latitude  of  choice  was  readily  accorded.  If  a 
Judge,  for  example,  was  to  be  appointed,  he  might  be  taken  from  any  source  what- 
ever; but  the  moment  it  was  the  people  who  were  to  exercise  the  power,  it  must 
forthwith  be  guarded  and  circumscribed  with  the  most  jealous  care.  The  Conven- 
tion had  determined,  that  not  only  freeholders,  but  that  every  leaseholder,  house- 
keeper, and  head  of  a  family,  might  exercise  the  right  of  voting;  yet,  here  they  were 
to  be  restrained  from  choosing,  who  among  themselves  should  be  their  representative. 
Mr.  C.  said,  he  had  more  confidence  in  the  virtue  and  intelligence  of  the  people,  than 
thus  to  restrain  them.  He  had  not  the  least  apprehension,  but  that  they  would  choose 
persons  for  their  representatives,  who  gave  sufficient  evidence  of  having  a  common 
intejest  with  them.  There  seemed  to  be  a  strange  dread  of  giving  power  to  the  peo- 
ple. If  it  was  proposed,  that  they  should  be  allowed  to  elect  the  Governor,  the 
House  was  immediately  alarmed  with  the  dangers  of  whiskey-drinking  and  elec- 
tioneering intrigues.  If  it  was  proposed  to  allow  them  to  choose  their  own  militia 
officers,  the  same  dangers  were  again  paraded  before  their  view — it  would  lead  to 
whiskey-drinking  and  to  electioneering.  Gentlemen  were  willing  to  leave  them  no 
other  election,  but  that  of  their  own  representatives ;  and  now,  even  this  was  to  be 
further  restrained,  and  they  were  to  be  told,  "  this  man  you  may  take,  but  this  man 
you  shall  not !"  He  could  approve  of  no  such  doctrine.  Having  first  decided  who 
were  to  be  the  sovereigns  of  the  land,  the  Convention  ought  to  leave  them  in  perfect 
freedom  to  choose  among  themselves  whom  they  would. 

Mr.  Tazewell  said,  that  if  there  had  been  no  other  provisions  in  this  Constitution 
to  which  the  gentleman  from  Campbell  had  given  his  assent,  and  which  went  on  the 
same  principle  with  the  present,  the  argument  of  the  gentleman  would  have  had 


812 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


more  weight.  But  the  gentleman  had  consented  that  a  man  might  elect  at  the  age  of 
twenty-one,  yet  he  might  not  be  elected  until  he  was  twenty-five,  as  a  Delegate,  or  until 
he  was  thirty,  as  a  Senator,  or  as  Governor  of  the  State.  What  became  of  the  gen- 
tleman's principle,  that  every  one  who  was  qualified  to  elect,  was  qualified  also  to  be 
elected  ?  To  be  elected,  a  man  must  reside  in  the  county  electing ;  but  to  be  a  voter,  no 
such  restriction  was  necessary.  Here  the  gentleman's  principle  failed  again.  And 
the  ground  of  his  opposition,  viz:  that  the  principle  of  the  amendment  was  new  and 
unheard  of,  had  been  destroyed  by  his  own  act  in  assenting  to  these  provisions.  He 
should  not  enter  on  the  merits  of  the  amendment. 

Mr.  Claytor  admitted  that  in  these  cases  he  had  certainly  consented  to  an  infringe- 
ment of  the  principle ;  but  this  formed  no  reason  why  he  should  go  farther,  and  con- 
sent to  a  yet  greater  violation  of  it,  especially  when  the  gentleman  did  not  pretend  to 
offer  a  single  argument  in  its  behalf.  What  need  could  there  be  for  such  a  limitation  ? 
Did  the  possession  of  freehold  any  better  qualify  a  man  for  the  duties  of  Legislation.-' 
Unless  some  good  reason  were  shewn  him,  he  could  not  consent  to  the  amendment. 

The  question  was  taken  and  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows : 

Jlyes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Clopton,  Johnson,  Ma- 
son of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax, 
Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Cooke,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  Roane,  Taylor 
of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall, 
Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale, 
Rose,  Coalter  and  Perrin — 47. 

JYoes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffinan,  Harrison,  Wilhamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy,  Moore, 
Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason 
of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  George,  M'Miilan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars, 
Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge, 
Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Stuart,  Thompson, 
Joynes  and  Upshur — 42. 

So  the  amendment  was  agreed  to, 

A  similar  amendment  having  been  proposed,  as  applying  to  Senators,  Mr.  Claytor 
demanded  the  ayes  and  noes  also  ;  hoping  that  some  who  had  insisted  on  this  as  a 
qualification  for  a  Senator,  might  not  insist  on  it  in  a  Delegate. 

The  question  was  accordingly  taken  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall,  Clopton,  Johnson, 
Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax, 
Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Cooke,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  Roane,  Tay- 
lor of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Tazewell, 
Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates, 
Neale,  Rose,  Coalter  and  Perrin — 48. 

JVoe5— Messrs.  Anderson,  Cofi"man,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy,  Moore, 
Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason 
of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  George,  M'Miilan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars, 
Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge, 
Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Stuart,  Thompson, 
Joynes  and  Upshur — 42. 

The  next  amendment  was  the  insertion  of  the  words  "  all  persons  holding  lucrative 
offices  and"  in  the  same  section,  after  the  words  all  Ministers  of  the  Gospel,"  (so  as 
to  exclude  office-holders  under  the  State  from  a  seat  in  the  Legislature.) 

Mr.  Wilson  wished  to  render  the  clause  more  definite,  by  inserting,  "  under  the 
Commonwealth,"  but,  Mr.  Leigh  objected  :  the  words  as  they  stood,  were  those  of 
the  old  Constitution,  the  interpretation  of  which  had  been  fixed  and  undisputed  for 
fifty-four  years. 

The  amendment  to  the  amendment  was  lost;  and  the  original  amendment  was 
then  agreed  to. 

The  following  letter  of  resignation  was  now  laid  before  the  House,  by  the  Pre- 
sident : 

RICHMOND,  January  3,  1830. 
Sir, — I  hereby  resign  my  seat  as  a  member  of  the  Convention,  being  prevented  by 
ill  health  from  performing  my  duty  as  a  member  of  that  body. 

Yours,  respectfully, 

J.  MACRAE. 

Hon.  P.  P.  Barbour,  } 
President  of  the  Convention.  ) 

Mr.  Scott  announced  to  the  House  that  the  Delegation  from  the  district  in  which 
Mr,  Macrae  belonged,  had  agreed  upon  Mr.  Thomas  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  as  a  suit- 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


813 


able  person  to  fill  the  vacancy  occasioned  by  the  resignation  of  that  gentleman,  and 
Mr.  Marshall  thereupon  took  his  seat  in  the  Convention. 

The  remaining  amendments  reported  by  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  were  then 
severally  agreed  to  by  the  House, 

The  Convention  returned  to  the  draught  of  the  Constitution,  and  the  Chair  announ- 
ced, that  it  was  now  open  to  farther  amendments. 

Mr.  Upshur,  with  a  view  to  remove  any  doubt  as  to  the  construction  of  the  first 
part  of  the  fifth  section,  moved  to  amend  it  by  inserting  the  words  "  by  virtue  of  his 
freehold''  so  as  to  make  it  read  "  any  person  may  be  elected  a  Senator,  who  shall  have 
attained  to  the  age  of  thirty  years,  and  shall  be  actually  a  resident  and  freeholder 
within  the  district,  qualified  byzirtyie  of  his  freehold  to  vote  for  members  of  the  Gene- 
ral Assembly  according  to  this  Constitution." 

The  amendment  was  agreed  to,  and  a  similar  amendment  w^as  inserted  in  the  latter 
part  of  the  section,  referring  to  members  of  the  House  of  Delegates. 

The  tenth  section  was  amended  on  Mr.  Leigh's  motion,  by  striking  out  the  follow- 
ing words,  as  surplusage,  the  same  thing  being  provided  for  in  another  clause  :  "  nor 
establish  by  law  any  subordination  or  preferenee  between  different  sects  or  denomi- 
nations." 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  moved  to'  insert  in  the  tenth  section  the  following  amendment : 
"Nor  shall  any  capitation  tax,  either  for  State  or  county  purposes,  be  imposed,  ex- 
cept in  time  of  war,  on  the  free  white  citizens  of  the  Commonwealth." 

Mr.  M'Coy  demanded  the  ayes  and  noes  on  this  motion,  and  they  were  ordered  by 
the  House. 

Mr.  Randolph  hoped  the  gentleman  from  Fairfax  would  explain  to  the  House 
the  justice  of  making  this  discrimination  between  imposing  a  capitation  tax  on  free 
white  citizens  and  on  slaves.  He  w^ould  listen  with  pleasure  to  the  gentleman's  ex- 
planation. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  replied,  that  he  would  with  pleasure  give  the  gentleman  the  explana- 
tion he  desired.  The  discrimination  rested  on  this  principle,  that  the  tax  on  slaves 
was  a  tax  on  property ;  they  were  taxed  as  property,  not  as  persons.  For  his  own 
part,  he  should  prefer  an  ad  valorem  tax  on  slaves  together  with  all  other  property : 
but  he  could  not  succeed  in  carrying  such  a  measure.  His  object  was  to  exempt 
those  from  being  taxed  who  had  nothing  to  pay  a  tax  with,  w^hile  the  rich  man  waa 
taxed  no  more  who  had  thousands  to  pay  it  out  of. 

Mr.  Randolph  said  he  could  not  see  the  justice  of  the  discrimination. 

The  owner  of  the  slaves  was  taxed  whether  they  were  taxed  per  capita  or  ad  va^ 
lorem.  The  Convention  were  engaged  in  extending  the  blessings  of  free  Govern- 
ment to  such  as  were  unwilling,  and  said  they  were  unable  to  pay  any  part  of  the 
public  expenses.  Mr.  R.  said  he  would  make  them  both  willing  and  able  ;  he  would 
constrain  their  will,  and  would  confer  the  abihty.  There  was  no  free  white  citizen 
of  this  Commonwealth,  (unless  he  was  what  the  French  were  in  the  habit  of  styling 
a  mauvaise  sujet.)  who  was  a  labourer  and  able  to  work,  who  was  not  able  to  pay  a  tax 
to  the  State.  There  was  no  free  man  with  that  self-respect  which  the  enjoyment  of 
freedom  naturally  conferred,  who  vrould  not  be  willing  to  contribute  his  mite  to  the 
expenses  of  his  Government.  He  w-as  unwilling  to  admit  that  there  existed  in  Vir- 
ginia a  class  of  vagrants  and  Lazeroni,  who  were  actually  unable  to  make  any  con- 
tribution whatever  toward  the  expenses  of  the  State.  He  was  against  the  amend- 
ment of  the  gentleman  from  Fairfax.  He  had  been  told  that  it  was  valuable,  inas- 
much as  it  might  operate  in  restraining  the  latitude  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage.  He 
would  not  give  a  straw  for  all  tlie  qualifications  prescribed  for  the  exercise  of  the 
Right  of  Suffrage  in  that  paper,  (pointing  to  the  draught  of  the  Constitution.)  For  his 
part,  he  had  rather  see  the  propositions  offered,  he  believed,  by  a  gentleman  from 
Monongalia,  and  proposing  Universal  Suffrage,  adopted  at  once.  This  was  Univer- 
sal Suffrage — it  was  that  in  effect. 

He  should  not  vote  for  the  amendment  in  order  to  disqualify  any  one  fi'om  exer- 
cising the  Right  of  Suffrage.  He  would  not  give  one  straw  for  all  that  had  been 
done  with  that  view,  nor  for  what  the  House  had  voted  that  morning  as  to  the  quali- 
fications of  persons  to  be  elected.  He  would  not  give  a  farthing  for  the  whole  of  it. 
The  House  had  introduced  a  principle  which  was  utterly  subversive  of  all  free  Gov- 
ernment. None  of  its  free  institutions  could  stand  for  a  century  with  such  principles 
at  the  bottom  of  them.  He  regarded  with  consummate — he  was  about  to  say  con- 
tempt— but  vvith  the  most  consummate  and  profound  indifference — all  those  miserable 
little  distinctions  which  had  been  introduced.  Who,  he  asked,  must  govern  the  elec- 
tion ?  Was  it  not  the  class  fi-om  which  the  members  of  both  Houses  were  drawn  ? 
The  election  must  always  be  subservient  to  those  who  voted.  He  had  voted  wath 
reluctance  for  the  clauses  inserted  this  morning.  The  whole  was  illusory — it  was  all 
deceptive :  They  stood  upon  a  quagmire  which  would  give  way  beneath  their  feet. 
Mr.  R.  said  he  would  not  consent  that  the  poor  man  should  be  taxed  who  owned  but 


814 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


one  slave,  in  order  to  extend  the  blessings  of  free  Government  to  Lazeroni,  who  ac- 
cording to  the  old  proverb  were  able  to  sing,  and  whom  he  was  for  making  to  sing. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  said,  he  had  the  same  objection  to  the  extension  of  the  Right  of  Suf- 
frage, with  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte — and  he  was  ready  to  vote  for  any  plan 
which  should  require  a  fair  amount  of  property  in  order  to  a  man's  voting.  He  was 
truly  sorry  there  should  be  such  a  Lazeroni  in  Virginia — but  he  had  seen  such  a  class, 
although  the  gentleman  was  unwilling  to  admit  its  existence.  The  Convention  was 
about  to  exclude  from  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  all  such  as  had  no  property  :  To  take 
away  from  these  people  all  ground  of  complaint,  he  would  exempt  them  from  taxation; 
so  that  they  could  not  say  we  were  obliged  to  pay  Government,  while  they  were 
allowed  no  share  in  it. 

Mr.  Venable  said,  he  was  no  advocate  for  a  capitation  tax  of  any  kind.  He  was 
willing  the  subject  should  be  left  with  the  Assembly ;  but  being  convinced,  that  a 
capitation  tax  on  slaves  was  unjust,  when  the  subject  was  up,  and  it  was  about  to  be 
recognized  in  the  Constitution,  he  was  for  having  the  whole  subject  taken  into  con- 
sideration. Let  the  Convention  express  its  opinion  upon  the  existence  of  any  capi- 
tation tax  at  all.  It  could  be,  and  it  had  been  shewn,  that  if  the  proposition  was  true, 
that  taxes  ought  to  be  laid  in  proportion  to  the  ability  to  pay,  then  a  capitation  tax 
on  slaves  was  unfair  and  improper.  If  so,  why  not  extend  the  prohibition  to  slaves 
as  well  as  to  whites A  district,  consisting  in  part  of  black  and  in  part  of  white  po- 
pulation, was  no  more  able  to  pay  taxes,  than  a  district  of  the  same  extent,  filled 
with  a  population  wholly  white — nor  so  able — because  the  labour  of  slaves  was  less 
economical  and  less  profitable  than  the  labour  of  white  men.  If,  then,  equal  taxes 
were  laid  in  other  respects,  on  two  such  districts,  and  a  capitation  tax  on  slaves  was 
superadded,  it  was  most  unjust  and  iTnequal  in  its  effect.  One  of  the  districts  would 
be  doubly  taxed,  and  more  than  doubly. 

Mr.  V.  said,  he  should  vote  against  the  present  amendment — but  was  in  favour  of 
abolishing  capitation  tax  entirely. 

Mr.  Scott  declared  his  intention  to  vote  for  the  amendment,  as  a  preventive  of 
-Universal  Suffrage — but  moved  to  amend  it  as  follows:  ''nor  shall  any  person  be 
chargeable  with  any  tax  on  real  or  personal  estate,  whose  real  and  personal  estate  is 
not  chargeable  with  a  revenue  tax  equal  to  fifty  cents." 

The  amendment  would  not  have  any  material  effect  upon  the  revenue.  A  large 
portion  of  those,  whose  tax  was  below  that  amount,  were  annually  returned  insol- 
vent by  the  Sheriff. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  said,  he  should  prefer  to  have  the  other  amendment  offered  as  a  sepa- 
rate measure  and  not  connected  with  his. 

Mr.  Wilson  said,  this  was  the  same  proposition  the  gentleman  had  offered  before 
and  which  the  House  had  rejected.  This  would  go  to  destroy  that  provision  which 
allowed  all  housekeepers  to  vote. 

Mr.  Powell  regarding  the  proposition  in  the  same  light,  demanded  the  ayes  and 
noes — and  they  were  ordered  accordingly. 

Mr.  Scott  allowed  this  measure  could,  in  some  degree,  retrench  the  Right  of  Suf- 
frage, but  by  very  different  means  from  what  had  formerly  been  proposed.  This  ex- 
empted from  payment,  the  former  had  required  it. 

The  question  being  put  on  Mr.  Scott's  amendment  to  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Fitz- 
hugh, it  was  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trez- 
vant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Fitzhugh, 
Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green, 
Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Neale,  Rose  and 
Coalter— 33. 

NoRs — Messrs.  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Tyler,  Clopton,  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harri- 
son, Williamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Logan, 
Venable,  Madison,  Mercer,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of 
Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of 
Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Sum- 
mers, See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Claytor,  Saunders, 
Townes,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates, 
Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 60. 

Mr.  Johnson  moved  to  amend  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Fitzhugh,  so  as  to  make  it  ap- 
ply to  State  taxes,  but  not  to  county  levies. 

This  amendment  was  negatived — Ayes  43,  Noes  46. 

Mr.  Venable  moved  to  amend  it  by  inserting  "  or  on  slaves." 

But  this  amendment  also  was  rejected. 

The  question  was  now  about  to  be  put  on  Mr.  Fitzhugh's  amendment,  when 
Mr.  Randolph  addressed  the  House.    He  said  that  the  main  reason  which  had  been 
assigned  in  behalf  of  the  amendment,  was  the  inability  of  certain  free  white  persons 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


815 


to  pay  any  tax.  Now,  he  should  be  glad  to  know  how  their  ability  to  pay  a  tax 
was  likely  to  be  increased  by  the  pressure  and  privation  incident  to  a  state  of  icar  ? 
In  peace  the  man  might  be  able  by  his  mattock  and  his  spade  to  earn  enough  to  pay 
a  small  tax,  but  how  war  was  to  confer  an  ability  which  peace  did  not  allow,  he  was 
so  dull  as  to  be  unable  to  comprehend.  The  amendment  proposed  that  no  capitation 
tax  should  be  laid  on  a  certain  description  of  persons  except  in  time  of  xcar.  If  the 
principle  was  sound,  this  exception  was  most  exceptionable.  But  the  principle  was 
not  sound.  Every  man  enjoying  the  blessings  and  privileges  of  a  free  Government 
was  bound  to  pay  them,  except  paupers.  But  this  amendment  was  not  intended  to 
apply  to  paupers  :  it  was  made  for  hearty,  able  men,  for  sturdy  beggars;  not  such  as 
were  decrepid  and  helpless. 

He  objected  to  the  amendment  on  another  ground.  The  Convention  were  acting 
on  the  Legislature  as  a  spider  acted  on  a  fly :  they  were  tying  up  its  legs  and  binding 
fast  its  wings,  so  that  it  had  neither  leg  nor  wing  to  go  with.  He  heard  much  said 
about  trusting  the  people  :  every  body  was  ready  and  willing  to  trust  the  people  :  but 
the  delegates  of  the  people,  whom  the  people  had  chosen  as  their  own  immediate  repre- 
sentatives; these  were  held  unworthy  of  any  sort  of  confidence.  He  thought  the 
people  were  trust  worthy — ^just  so  far  as  this — they  were  very  capable  of  choosing  their 
own  agents.  They  had  sagacity  and  virtue  enough  to  decide  between  worth  and  wis- 
dom and  intelligence  on  the  one  side,  and  their  opposites  on  the  other;  and  they 
having  established  their  agents  with  power  to  act  for  them,  he  was  for  leaving  more 
to  those  agents  than  some  gentlemen  seemed  willing  to  do.  If  gentlemen  would 
have  no  capitation  tax,  then  in  the  name  of  justice  let  the  exemption  be  equal.  Here 
Mr.  Randolph  supposed  the  case  of  two  counties,  one  with  and  the  other  without 
slaves,  and  shewed  the  unequal  operation  of  the  capitation  tax  if  on  slaves  only.  He 
said  this  was  unjust  and  unequal  :  and  grievously  did  he  feel  that  w^ant  of  nerve  and 
want  of  decision  which  caused  gentlemen  from  the  Eastern  part  of  the  State,  at  the 
beginning  of  the  proceedings  of  this  Convention,  not  to  claim  what  they  had  a  right 
to  enjoy,  the  representation  of  their  ichole  population.  Then  they  would  have  had 
something  to  stand  on.  They  would  have  had  the  (pou  sxo)  of  Archimedes,  Then 
the  gentlemen  on  the  other  side  would  have  been  glad  to  meet  them  on  the  basis  of 
Federal  numbers.  And  why  Because  he  would  not  cast  on  his  brethren  of  the 
West  such  an  imputation  as  to  say,  that  they  would  not  have  been  willing  to  grant  to 
their  brethren  of  the  East  what  was  granted  to  the  Southern  States  in  a  hard-driven 
bargain  by  their  other  brethren,  the  yankees — what  was  granted  them  by  brother 
Jonathan. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  said,  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte  had  represented  that  as  the  main 
argument  urged  for  the  amendment  which  had  not  been  urged  at  all.  The  ground 
he  had  taken  had  been,  that  it  was  most  unjust  to  compel  a  man  not  worth  one  cent 
in  the  world,  to  pay  as  much  tax  as  another  man  worth  $  100.000.  And  another  con- 
sideration had  been  urged  by  others,  that  it  would  tend  to  limit  the  Right  of  Suffrage 
from  going  to  universality. 

Mr.  Randolph  replied.  The  gentleman  now  said  that  it  was  unjust  to  compel  a 
poor  ma.n,  a  ditcher,  to  pay  as  much  tax  as  a  man  worth  $  100,000.  The  injustice 
was  not  half  so  great — it  was  precisely  half  as  great — as  to  tax  the  slave  of  the  poor 
man  who  owned  but  one  negro  and  hired  him  out  as  a  labourer — while  the  man  who 
held  thousands  in  Bank  stock  paid  no  tax  at  all.  Here  was  a  case,  not  where  rich 
and  poor  were  taxed  alike,  but  where  they  taxed  the  poor  man  and  exempted  the 
rich  altogether:  where  they  taxed  the  negro  of  the  poor  man,  but  left  the  Bank  stock 
of  the  rich  man  wholly  free  from  taxation.  If  it  was  unjust  to  tax  the  poor  labourer 
and  the  rich  capitalist  equally,  a  fortiori  must  it  be  unjust  to  tax  the  poor  and  let  the 
rich  go  free. 

He  was  very  sorry — very  sorry  indeed — that  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield  had 
brought  his  mind  to  vote  for  this  amendment.  He  was  going  to  vote  for  it  as  a  re- 
straint upon  suffrage.  He  would  not  give  a  straw  for  the  restraint.  Suffrage  by  this 
Constitution  was  universal  in  fact,  and  it  might  as  well  be  so  in  terms :  it  should  be  in 
name  what  it  was  in  substance.  Having  extended  it  as  they  had  done,  the  Conven- 
tion had  done  an  act  of  monstrous  injustice,  and  by  consequence  of  equal  impolicy. 
They  had  excluded  all  the  well-brought-up  sons  of  freeholders.  That  was  a  class,  as 
he  had  said  on  a  former  occasion,  towards  whom  his  heart  yearned,  and  in  whose  fa- 
vour, did  not  his  judgment  forbid  it,  he  felt  a  strong  inclination  to  extend  the  Right  of 
Suffrage.  For  his  part,  so  far  was  he  from  being  unwilling  to  trust  the  Legislature 
to  make  a  Constitution,  that  for  all  the  experience  he  had  had  in  the  Convention  he 
had  ten  thousand  times  rather  the  Legislature  should  do  it  than  those  who  had  under- 
taken the  task :  he  firmly  believed  it  would  be  in  safer  hands.  He  defied  any  Legis- 
lature in  the  country  to  make  a  Constitution  less  worthy  of  approbation  than  that 
which  they  had  constructed.  He  would  not  give  a  straw  for  that  long  list  of  restric- 
tions about  parsons  and  what  not :  in  practice  it  would  be  perfectly  unavailing,  unless 
to  exclude  the  meritorious  class  of  persons  he  had  mentioned>    He  was  not  afraid  to 


816 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


trust  the  Legislature.  And  why  not?  Because  he  did  not  fear  to  trust  the  people: 
And  how  so  ?  Because  the  people  were  the  only  competent  authority  to  select  their 
own  agents.  When  this  was  done,  they  had  the  principles  of  free  Government.  It 
was  now  to  be  determined,  whether  they  were  to  have  a  Government  that  would 
stand,  or  whetiier  the  fruitless  attempt  was  to  be  persevered  in  to  make  a  cone  stand 
upon  its  apex.  Their  Government  under  such  a  Constitution  would  be  futile — it  was 
impossible  it  should  stand  for  a  century. 

The  question  was  now  taken,  and  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows: 

Jlyes — Messrs.  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Anderson,  CofF- 
man,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Johnson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Clai- 
borne, Madison,  Stanard,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell, 
Naylor,  Donaldson,  Fendleton,  George,  Bj'ars,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Oglesby,  Duncan, 
Laidley,  Summers,  Doddridge, Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Barbour  of  Cui- 
peper,  Scott,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Prentis,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell, 
Martin,  Stuart,  Joynes  and  Upshur — 48. 

jYoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Giles,  Brodnax,Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode, 
Marshall  of  Richmond,  Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Baldwin,  Mason  of  Southampton, 
Trezvant,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Holladay,  Griggs, 
Mason  of  Frederick,  Boyd,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Roane,  Morris,  Gar- 
nett,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  See,  Green,  Loyall,  Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford, 
Branch,  Tovvnes,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter, 
Bayly  and  Perrin — 47. 

Mr.  Claiborne  moved  to  amend  the  fourteenth  section,  by  striking  out  all  that  part 
of  it  which  follows,  declaring  that  the  Governor  "shall  be  elected  as  follows:"  and 
to  insert  a  provision  for  the  Governor's  election  by  the  two  Houses  of  Assembly. 

Mr.  Miller  stated,  that  his  colleague  (Mr.  Beirne,)  was  absent  from  sickness,  and  he 
should  take  it  as  a  favor,  if  the  gentleman  would  consent  to  postpone  this  important 
amendment  until  he  should  be  able  to  resume  his  place,  which  he  had  reason  to  hope 
would  be  the  case  on  the  following  day. 

Mr.  Claiborne  instantly  complied,  disclaiming  all  intention  to  press  any  measure 
under  such  circumstances. 

Mr.  Nicholas  said,  he  might  probably  be  absent  the  next  day,  and  he  hoped  the  same 
indulgence  would  be  extended  in  that  case. 

Mr.  Henderson  said,  if  the  gentleman  should  be  taken  sick  before  the  next  day,  the 
indulgence  ought  to  be  extended  to  him:  but  not,  if  absent  on  private  or  professional 
business. 

Mr.  Claiborne  agreed  in  this  view  of  the  subject,  and  should  act  upon  it. 

Mr.  Cabell,  after  a  few  prefatory  remarks,  offered  the  following  amendment  to  the 
twenty-second  section : 

"  The  General  Assembly  shall  have  power  to  modify  or  abolish  the  said  Superior 
Courts,  at  such  times,  and  to  substitute  for  them,  if  in  their  discretion  they  deem  it 
expedient,  such  tribunals  as  the  public  good  may  require.  And  upon  the  modification 
or  abolition  thereof,  the  salaries  of  all  officers  holding  offices  therein,  or  in  any  wise  ap- 
purtenant thereto,  shall  be  abolished,  unless  otherwise  directed  by  law." 

The  amendment  gave  rise  to  a  debate,  in  v^^hich  Messrs.  Marshall,  Tazewell,  Giles, 
and  Cabell  took  part. 

The  amendment  was  resisted  as  being  unnecessary,  the  clauses  retained  in  the  sec- 
tion going  the  whole  length  of  its  provisions.  This  was  specially  pressed  by  Mr. 
Tazewell,  who  agreed  in  sentiment  with  Mr.  Cabell,  as  to  the  main  question  involved. 

The  question  was  at  length  taken,  and  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Cabell  rejected. 

Mr.  Scott  moved  to  amend  the  twenty-second  section  in  such  a  manner  as  to  make 
the  General  Court  a  Constitutional  Court  as  well  as  the  Court  of  Appeals. 

Mr.  S.  explained  and  urged  his  amendment,  and  was  followed  by  Mr.  Leigh,  who 
earnestly  advocated  and  pressed  the  measure,  as  leading  to  the  most  salutary  results. 

Mr.  Powell  opposed  it  as  unnecessary,  all  the  ends  being  as  well  answered  by 
leaving  the  subject  to  the  Legislature. 

Mr.  Henderson  made  some  remarks  in  reply  to  Mr.  Powell,  who  rejoined,  and  was 
followed  by  Mr.  Leigh. 

The  question  was  taken,  and  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Brodnax,  Goode,  Mar- 
shall of  Richmond,  Nicholas,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Claiborne, 
Madison,  Stanard,  Henderson,  Cooke,  Griggs,  Pendleton,  Morris,  Garnett,  Mathews, 
Summers,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Prentis,  Branch, 
Townes,  Massie,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes  and  Upshur — 33. 

Noes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Giles,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Tyler, 
Clopton,  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Smith,  Miller, 
Baxter,  Trezvant,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Holladay, 
Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Osborne,  Powell,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd, 
George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline, 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


817 


Cloyd,  Chapman,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of 
Brooke,  Wilson,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders, 
Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Bates,  Bayly  and  Perrin — 62. 

Mr.  George  moved  the  following  amendment  to  the  sixteenth  section  : 
The  Legislature  shall  meet  only  once  in  every  two  years,  unless  convened  in  the 
manner  prescribed  by  the  twenty-seventh  article  of  this  Constitution." 

He  stated  that  he  acted  in  obedience  to  the  wishes  of  his  constituents  in  presenting 
the  amendment. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke,  asked  the  ayes  and  noes,  and  they  wei^  ordered. 

INlr.  Randolph  said,  that  he  was  not  second  to  any  man  in  that  House,  or  out  of  it, 
in  his  abhorrence  of  over  Legislation  :  and  he  would  vote  for  the  amendment  wath 
g^reat  pleasure,  but  for  one  consideration :  he  was  subjected  to  another  Government 
besides  that  of  Virginia;  and  as  the  Legislature  of  the  United  States  met  every  year, 
he  wanted  that  of  Virginia  to  meet  every  year  also,  that  it  might  watch  them. 

The  question  was  then  taken  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follov.'s  : 

.^yes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffman,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  Baxter,  Henderson,  Os- 
borne, George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Mathews,  Oglesby, 
See,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  ^Vilson.  Tazewell,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Townes, 
Martin,  Stuart,  Bates.  Rose  and  Coalter — 26. 

.Yoes — Messrs.  Barbour.  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax.  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond,  Tyler, 
Nicholas,  Clopton,  Harrison,  Johnson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Smith,  I>Iiller,  iSIason  of  South- 
ampton, Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable, 
Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  iNIason  of  Fre- 
derick, Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton.  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Gar- 
nett.  Chapman,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  Doddridge,  Barbour  of  Culpeper.  Scott, 
Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier.  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Branch, 
Cabell,  Pleasants.  Gordon.  Thompson.  Massie,  jXeale.  Joynes.  Bavly,  fpshur  and 
Perrin— C9. 

So  the  amendment  was  rejected. 

On  motion  of  jMr.  J.  S.  Barbour,  the  vote  on  Mr.  Fitzhugh's  amendment,  in  rela- 
tion to  the  capitation  tax,  was  re-considered.  The  amendment  was  then  withdrawn 
to  be  offered  to-morrow. 

Mr.  Coalter  moved  an  amendment  to  the  twelfth  section,  as  follows  : 

"  And  provided,  also,  that  the  votes  in  each  county  shall  be  taken  at  one  place  to 
be  designated  by  law." 

jMr.  Coalter  said,  he  believed  the  last  chapter  in  the  Book  of  Judges  was  now  gone 
through  :  the  next  would  be  the  first  chapter  in  the  Book  of  Kings,  which  being  King 
Legislature,  he  wished  it  to  be  as  pure  as  possible  :  and  he  hoped  all  who  agreed  in 
that  wish  would  vote  for  his  amendment. 

The  question  being  taken,  the  ayes  and  noes  stood  as  follows  : 

£i/es — Messrs.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Brodnax.  Dromgoole, 
Nicholas,  Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Urquhart.  Ptandolph,  Leigh  of 
Halifax,  Logan,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane,  Garnett,  Green,  Loyall,  Grigsby^.  Rose 
and  Coalter — 21. 

jXoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Giles.  Alexander,  Goode,  Mar.shall  of 
Richmond,  Tyler,  Clopton,  Anderson,  CofFinan,  Harrison.  Williamson.  Baldwin, 
M'Coy,  Moore,  Smith.  iNIiller,  Baxter,  Claiborne,  Venable,  Madison,  Mercer,  Fitz- 
hugh, Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  iSaylor,  Do- 
naldson, Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  McMillan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Tay- 
lor of  Caroline,  Morris,  Clo3'd,  Cliapman.  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Sum- 
mers, See,  Doddridge,  jNIorgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson.  Barbour  of  Culpeper, 
Scott,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Prentis,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor.  Saun- 
ders, Branch,  Townes.  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart.  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie, 
Bates,  Neale,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Up>hur  and  Perrin — 74. 

So  the  amendment  was  rejected. 

Mr.  Stanard  now  moved  to  insert  in  the  twenty-second  section,  after  the  word 
"  tribunals,"  the  words,  "  and  of  the  Judges  thereof,"  so  as  to  read  The  jurisdiction  of 
these  tribunals  and  of  the  Judges  thereof,  shall  be  regulated  by  law." 

Mr.  S.  explained  the  amendment,  as  having  reference  to  the  duties  of  Judges  out 
of  Court.    And  it  was  agreed  to. 

The  House  then  adjourned. 


103 


818 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION, 


THURSDAY,  January  7,  1830. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr, 
Courtney  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

The  Chair  announced,  that  the  Select  Committee  on  the  subject  of  the  apportion- 
ment would  not  be  ready  to  report  till  one  o'clock,  and  that  they  asked  leave  to  sit  till 
that  hour. 

Mr.  Gordon  suggested,  that  it  would  be  also  best  to  suspend  the  proceedings  of  the 
Convention  till  tlfat  time. 

Mr.  Summers  hoped,  that  the  motion  for  a  recess  would  be  withdrawn,  until  he  had 
an  opportunity  of  submitting  a  paper. 

He  observed,  that  for  some  days  a  proposition  had  remained  on  the  table,  having  for 
its  object  the  interposition  of  some  restraints  upon  the  Legislature  in  creating  new 
Banks,  or  renewing  the  charters  of  those  in  existence.  The  subject,  he  said,  was  of 
much  public  concern,  and  he  was  satisfied  that  a  power  which  included  in  its  opera- 
tion the  currency  of  the  country,  and  in  its  effects  embraced  and  regulated  in  a  great 
degree  the  -price  of  every  species  of  property,  ought  not  to  be  left  within  the  power  of 
a  bare  majority,  of  a  naked  quorum  of  the  General  Assembly.  If  the  political  effects 
of  the  Banks,  and  their  agency  (sometimes  most  disastrous)  in  the  affairs  of  our  fel- 
low citizens,  was  taken  into  the  estimate,  he  thought  that  prudence  dictated  the  limi- 
tation of  the  Legislative  power  to  ca^es  challenging  the  concurrence  of  three-fifths  of 
both  Houses,  but  if  this  majority  should  be  regarded  as  unnecessarily  large,  and  likely 
to  produce  injurious  restraints,  we  should  be  content  to  change  the  proposition  from 
three-fifths  to  majorities  of  the  entire  number  of  members  elected  to  both  branches  of 
the  Legislature.  While  he  was  very  desirous  of  bringing  this  subject  to  the  conside- 
ration of  the  Convention,  he  was  so  fully  aware  of  the  disinclination  of  members  to 
take  up  new  questions,  as  to  doubt  whether  even  one  of  this  moment  could  overcome 
the  impatience  nov/  felt.  He,  therefore,  in  moving  to  take  up  for  consideration  the 
amendment  wliich  he  had  offered,  requested  tliat  the  question  miglit  be  considered  as 
a  test  of  the  sense  of  the  House,  whether  at  this  period  of  its  session  it  was  its  pleasure 
to  go  into  the  merits  of  the  proposed  amendment,  and  that  if  it  should  be  the  determi- 
nation of  the  Convention  to  enter  upon  the  subject,  he  was  prepared  to  enforce  the 
necessity,  policy  and  propriety  of  engrafting  in  the  Constitution  the  article  which  he 
had  proposed. 

The  folio v/ing  resolution  was  then  presented,  and  read  by  the  Secretary  : 

"No  law  shall  be  enacted  by  the  General  Assembly,  creating,  continuing,  altering 
or  renewing  any  body  politic  or  corporate,  with  power  to  carry  on  the  business  of 
banking,  or  for  making  loans  or  discounts,  without  the  assent  of  three-fifths  of  the  mem- 
bers elected  to  each  branch  of  the  Legislature  ;  nor  shall  the  General  Assembly,  at 
any  one  session  thereof,  create,  continue,  alter  or  renew,  more  than  one  body  politic 
or  corporate,  with  power  to  deal  as  a  Bank,  by  making  loans  or  discounts." 

The  Chair  said,  it  would  be  proper  to  lay  it  on  the  table  without  taking  a  question, 
it  being  the  v/ish  of  the  mover  to  give  it  that  direction. 

On  Mr.  Claiborne's  motion,  the  resolution  was  ordered  to  be  printed. 

Mr.  Stanard  rose  to  remark,  that  in  order  to  make  the  twenty-second  section  more 
complete,  it  would  be  necessary  to  make  another  amendment.  In  the  seventh  line 
of  that  section  an  amendment  had  been  made  yesterday,  directing  that  "  The  jurisdic- 
tion of  the  tribunals,  and  of  the  Judges  thereof,  shall  be  regulated  by  law."  With  a 
view  of  accommodating  the  first  part  of  the  section  to  that  amendment,  he  would  move 
to  add  in  the  second  line  after  the  words  "  Court  of  Appeals,"  the  words  and  the 
Judges  thereof,"  and  also  after  the  words  "  in  such  Superior  Courts  as  the  Legisla- 
ture may  from  time  to  time  ordain  and  establish,"  the  w^ords  "and  the  Judges  thereof." 

Mr.  Cabell  said,  he  did  not  profess  to  set  himself  up  for  a  critic ;  but  it  seemed  to 
him  that  this  amendment  would  bring  back  things  to  the  same  situation  in  which  they 
were  before  the  amendment,  which  he  had  had  the  honor  to  submit,  had  been  adopted 
by  the  House.  He  thought  that  the  proposed  amendment  would  fix  the  Judges  in 
ouice,  even  after  their  Courts  were  abolished. 

Mr.  Stanard  admitted,  that  the  member  v/hich  he  wished  to  introduce,  might  not 
very  well  cohere  with  the  other  members  of  the  same  sentence  ;  but  it  struck  him  as 
a  necessary  provision.  As  to  the  remark  of  the  gentleman  from  Pittsylvania,  which 
st^emed  to  him  to  be  the  offspring  of  a  high  degree  of  jealousy  on  this  subject,  he 
begged  leave  to  sa}'^,  that  his  amendment  was  only  calculated  to  give  the  Judge  the 
necessary  Judicial  power  in  vacation  as  well  as  in  the  terms  of  the  Courts — out  of 
Court  as  well  as  in  Court — and  it  was  certainly  essential  to  give  such  power  to  the 
Judge,  He  would  ask  of  the  Chair  to  confine  his  amendment  at  present  to  the  "  Court 
of  Appeals,"  and  to  take  the  question  first  in  that  shape — but  (on  Mr.  Morris's  sug- 
gestion,) he  moved  to  introduce  the  words  in  question,  after  the  word  "  establish,"  in 
the  twent3^-second  section,  so  as  to  read :  "  The  Judicial  power  shall  be  vested  in  a 
Supreme  Court  ot  Appeal^^  in  such  Superior  Courts  as  the  Legislature  may  from  time 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


819 


to  time  ordain  and  establish,  in  the  Judges  thereof,  in  the  County  CourtS;  and  in  jus- 
tices of  tlie  peace." 

Mr.  Cabell  asked,  why  then  was  not  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania  satisfied 
with  confining-  his  amendment  to  the  introduction  of  the  words  "  in  vacation?" 

Mr.  CJaytor  remarlied,  that  the  same*  provision  which  is  now  made  by  the  tv/enty- 
second  section,  is  to  be  found  in  the  Constitution  of  tlie  United  States;  and  if  a  pre- 
cisely similar  provision  in  that  instrument  conveyed  the  necessary  power,  where  was 
the  necessity  of  making  any  change Why  should  they  not  leave  it  in  the  present 
form,  when  this  provision  conveyed  the  necessar}-  power  and  when  it  has  been  found 
to  answer  in  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States  for  forty  years.?  He  remarked 
also,  that  if  a  new  provision  was  to  be  adopted,  it  might  be  necessary  to  give  it  a  con- 
struction new  and  diiierent  from  the  one  already  established. 

Tjie  Chair  then  read  the  clause  as  it  would  stand  with  the  words  "  and  the  Judges 
thereof,"  inserted  after  the  word  establish." 

Mr.  Claytor  asked,  if  the  amendment  made  yesterday  did  not  apply  to  the  Judges 
themselves  ?  whether  it  did  not  cover  the  whole  case  ;  and  whence,  then,  the  necessity 
of  a  repetition  ? 

Mr.  Stanard  said,  he  would  not  undertake  to  assign  the  reasons  why  this  body  had 
given  an  unanimous  vote  yesterday  in  favor  of  the  amendment,  and  in  which  he  pre- 
sumed the  gentleman  from  Campbell  had  united;  but  he  would  retort  the  enquiry 
upon  that  gentleman :  why  make  the  amendment  yesterday,  and  object  to  a  similar 
one  to-day  ?  He  thought  it  was  necessary  to  carr}^  this  amendment  out.  In  the  first 
sentence  of  the  section,  the  Judicial  power  is  vested  in  the  Courts  themselves,  but 
you  have  not  said  it  shall  be  in  the  Judges ;  and  it  was  to  give  Judges  the  necessary 
jurisdiction  out  of  Court,  that  he  wished  the  amendment  introduced  into  the  first  sen- 
tence. You  surely  can  have  no  objection,  after  havmg  declared  that  the  jurisdiction 
of  the  Judges  shall  be  regulated  by  law,  to  say  also  that  it  ought  to  be  vested  in  the 
Judges — and  if  yesterday  it  was  not  superfluous  to  declare  the  one,  why  should  it  be 
superfluous  to-day  to  declare  the  other.' 

Mr.  Claytor  observed,  as  to  the  iinanimous  vote  of  yesterday,  he  of  course  did  not 
vote  in  the  negative,  but  he  did  not  hesitate  to  say,  that  he  must  then  have  voted 
without  due  consideration.  It  was  sufficient  for  him  to  recollect  that  the  provisions 
of  the  present  section  were  similar  to  those  in  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States, 
and  where  was  the  necessity  of  holding  up  a  candle  to  the  noon-day  sun  ?  or  of  call- 
ing for  the  meaning  of  words,  which  had  been  interpreted  for  forty  years  past.' 

Mr.  Powell  asked,  if  the  expressions  used  in  the  section  before  the  House,  did  not 
necessarily  imply  a  jurisdiction  in  the  Judges  themselves.  The  very  terms  them- 
selves vest  a  Judicial  power  in  the  courts;  and  surely  they  did  equally  so  in  the 
Judges.  He  considered,  therefore,  the  amendment  as  not  only  perfectly  unnecessary, 
but  he  objected  to  it,  because  it  might  be  so  construed  as  to  make  the  Judges  constitu- 
tional agents  as  well  as  the  courts  themselves.  He  surely  did  not  wish  -o  restrain  the 
Legislature  from  bona  fide  abolishing  the  courts,  VN^hen  the  public  interest  imperiously 
required  it ;  because  he  hoped,  whatever  had  been  done  in  another  State,  that  the 
Legislature  of  Virginia  would  never  so  far  foro-et  its  dignity  and  its  duty  ;  would  never 
become  so  debased,  as  to  strike  at  the  tenure  of  the  Judges  hy  the  abolition  of  tijeir 
courts.  For  his  own  part,  he  thought  that  the  amendment  adopted  yesterday  had 
entirely  superceded  the  necessity  of  the  one  now  proposed. 

Mr.  Henderson  suggested,  that  the  House  had  given  leave  of  absence  to  seven  of 
its  members  ;  and  among  them  to  the  Chairman  of  the  Judicial  Committee,  and  asked 
whether  it  were  not  better  to  vvaive  the  present  discussion  and  have  a  recess  until 
1  o'clock. 

Mr.  Stanard  rose  to  express  his  surprise  at  the  remarks  of  the  gentleman  from  Fre- 
derick, (^Ir.  Powell.)  It  filled  him  with  amazement  to  hear  that  gentleman  sa}-,  that 
it  was  perfectly  clear,  when  the  jurisdiction  was  given  to  the  court  itself,  it  was  also 
given  to  the  functionaries  of  that  court.  He  would  ask  him  as  a  practical  lawyer,  if 
it  has  never  so  happened  to  him  in  the  course  of  his  practice,  to  have  to  interpret  an 
act  of  Assembly,  which  gave  certain  powers  to  courts,  when  the  question  arose  whe- 
ther the  Judge  could  also  exercise  power  except  in  open  court.  Is  it  possible,  that 
this  question  was  never  brought  before  him  in  a  Court  of  Chancery  ?  Is  it  not  an  es- 
tablished rule  that  certain  appeals  may  be  granted  in  open  court,  which  could  not  be 
done  by  the  Judge  in  vacation.^  The  language  of  the  law  is,  that  unless  in  cases  pro- 
vided for,  the  functionaries  may  act  in  open  court,  in  term  time,  but  not  in  vacation. 
And  yet  the  gentleman  from  Frederick  says  it  is  perfectly  clear,  if  you  give  jurisdic- 
tion to  the  court  itself,  you  must  also  give  it  severally  to  the  integers  who  constitute 
the  court  itself.  What  I  does  one  Judge  constitute  the  court But,  if  this  doctrine  be 
true,  is  it  not  equally  true,  that  if  the  jurisdiction  be  given  to  a  Judge  in  term  time,  it 
may  be  exercised  by  him  in  vacation  ?  And  why,  (Mr.  S.  asked,)  are  we  so  careful  in 
the  first  sentence  of  this  section,  to  give  jurisdiction  to  "justices  of  the  peace  .'"  Why 
discriminate  between  the  County  Courts"  and  "justices  of  the  peace.'"  The  gen- 
tleman from  Frederick  says,  that  if  jurisdiction  be  given  to  courts,  it  follows  as  a  ne- 


820 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTIOX. 


cessary  consequence  that  it  must  be  vested  in  the  Judges.  True  ;  but  how  vested  in 
them  ?  Only  as  members  of  that  court ;  but  not  as  integers  of  the  court.  Mr.  S.  said, 
he  wished  to  remove  all  doubt  by  the  amendment  he  had  offered,  that  jurisdiction  was 
given  to  the  Judges,  in  vacation  as  well  as  in  term  time.  A  writ  of  habeas  corpus  is 
to  be  sued  out,  for  instance  ;  he  wished  it  to  be  understood  whether  a  power  could  be 
given  to  the  Judge  to  issue  it  in  vacation. 

Mr.  Powell  rose  in  reply,  and  expressed  his  regret  that  any  thing  he  had  said 
should  have  filled  the  mind  of  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania  with  amazement. 
But  he  was  as  much  amazed  at  the  gentleman's  argument,  after  the  concession  that 
gentleman  had  made.  He  had  allowed  that,  if  jurisdiction  is  given  to  a  court,  it  is 
given  to  the  Judges  of  that  court :  if  so,  where  could  be  the  necessity  of  vesting  ju- 
risdiction in  them  by  a  separate  clause.''  Cui  bono?  Why  reiterate  what  had  already 
been  declared unless  it  was  to  give  separate  jurisdiction  to  Judges  whether  in  term 
or  in  vacation.  If  this  alone  was  the  object,  it  was  a  laudable  one  :  but  it  could  be 
fully  attained  by  the  effect  of  the  amendment  offered  yesterday,  giving  the  Legisla- 
ture power  over  the  jurisdiction  of  the  court  and  of  the  Judge.  That  amendment 
completely  superseded  the  necessity  of  this  one.  It  declared  that  the  jurisdiction  of 
the  Judges  as  well  as  of  the  court  should  be  regulated  by  law.  Did  not  this  put  it  in 
the  power  of  the  Legislature  to  declare  that  the  Judges  might  have  separate  jurisdic- 
tion for  duties  out  of  court.''  Might  not  the  Legislature  declare  that  a  Judge  of  the 
Court  of  Appeals,  might,  in  vacation,  grant  an  appeal  ?  He  appealed  to  the  gentleman 
himself,  if  the  amendment  adopted  yesterday,  did  not  completely  efllect  this  object.' 
If  it  did  not,  his  not  perceiving  sucli  to  be  t.he  fact  was,  he  supposed,  to  be  attributed 
to  the  obtuseness  of  his  intellect,  or  else  to  the  want  of  his  accustomed  lucidness  of 
argument  in  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania. 

Mr.  Henderson  now  renewed  his  motion,  and  the  House  took  a  recess  till  1  o'clock. 

After  the  recess,  the  House  having  resumed  its  session, 

Mr.  Madison,  from  the  Select  Committee  to  whom  had  been  re-committed  the  third 
and  fourth  sections  of  the  amended  Constitution,  made  the  following  report : 

"  III.  One  of  these  shall  be  called  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  shall  consist  of  one 
hundred  and  thirty-two  members,  to  be  chosen  annually,  I'br  and  by  the  several 
counties,  cities,  towns  and  boroughs  of  the  Commonwealth ;  whereof  thirty  Dele- 
gates shall  be  chosen  for  and  by  the  twenty-six  counties  lying  West  of  the  Alle- 
ghany mountains ;  twenty-five,  for  and  by  the  fourteen  counties  lying  between  the 
Alleghany  and  Blue  Ridge  of  mountains  ;  forty-one,  for  and  by  the  twenty-nine  coun- 
ties lying  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge  of  mountains  and  above  tide-water;  and  thirty-six 
for  and  by  the  counties,  cities,  towns  and  boroughs,  lying  upon  tide-water,  that  is  to 
say  :  Of  the  twenty  six  counties  lying  West  of  the  Alleghany,  the  counties  of  Harri- 
son, Monongalia,  Ohio  and  Washington,  shall  each  elect  two  Delegates ;  and  the 
counties  of  Brooke,  Cabell,  Grayson,  Greenbrier,  Giles,  Kanawha,  Lee,  Lewis, 
Logan,  Mason,  Monroe,  Montgomery,  Nicholas,  Pocahontas,  Preston.  Randolph.  Rus- 
sell, Scott,  Tazewell,  Tyler,  Wood  and  Wythe,  shall  each  elect  one  Delegate.  Of  the 
fourteen  counties  lying  between  the  Alleghany  and  Blue  Ridge,  the  counties  of  Frede- 
rick and  Shenandoah  shall  each  elect  three  Delegates  ;  the  counties  of  Augusta,  Berke- 
ley, Botetourt,  Hampshire,  Jefferson,  Rockingham  and  Rockbridge,  shall  each  elect 
two  Delegates;  and  the  counties  of  Alleghany,  Bath,  Hardy,  Morgan  aiid  Pendleton, 
shall  each  elect  one  Delegate.  Of  the  twenty-nine  counties  lying  East  of  the  Blue 
Ridge  and  above  tide-water,  the  county  of  Loudoun  shall  elect  three  L^elegates ;  the 
counties  of  Albemarle,  Bedford,  Brunswick,  Buckingham,  Campbell,  Culpeper;  Fau- 
quier, Halifax,  Mecklenburg  and  Pittsylvania,  shall  each  elect  two  Delegates;  and 
the  counties  of  Amelia,  Amherst,  Charlotte,  Cumberland,  Dinwiddle,  Fluvanna, 
Franklin,  Goochland,  Henry,  Louisa,  Lunenburg,  Madison,  Nelson,  Nottoway, 
Orange,  Patrick,  Powhatan  and  Prince  Edward,  shall  each  elect  one  Delegate.  And 
of  the  counties,  cities,  towns  and  boroughs,  lying  on  tide-water,  the  counties  of  Acco- 
mack and  Norfolk  shall  each  elect  two  Delegates ;  the  counties  of  Caroline,  Ches- 
terfield, Essex,  Fairfax,  Greensville,  Gloucester,  Hanover,  Henrico,  Isle  of  Wight, 
King  &  Queen,  King  William,  King  George,  Nansemond,  Northumberland,  North- 
ampton, Princess  Anne,  Prince  George,  Prince  William,  Southampton,  Spottsyl- 
vania, Stafford,  Sussex,  Surr}''  and  Westmoreland,  and  the  city  of  Richmond, 
the  borough  of  Norfolk,  and  the  tov/n  of  Petersburg,  shall  each  elect  one  Delegate ;  the 
counties  of  Lancaster  and  Pcichmond  shall  together  elect  one  Delegate  ;  the  counties 
of  Matthews  and  Middlesex  shall  together  elect  one  Delegate ;  the  counties  of  Eliza- 
beth City  and  Warwick,  shall  together  elect  one  Delegate;  the  counties  of  James  City 
and  York,  and  the  city  of  Williamsburg,  shall  together  elect  one  Delegate  ;  and  the 
counties  of  New  Kent  and  Charles  City,  shall  together  elect  one  Delegate." 

"  IV.  Strike  out  from  the  word  "counties,"  in  the  twenty-fifth  line,  to  the  end, 
and  insert — 

"  Of  Brooke,  Ohio  and  Tyler,  shall  form  one  district:  the  counties  of  Monongalia, 
Preston  and  Randolph,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Harrison,  Lewis, 
Wood  and  Pocahontas,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Kanawha,  Mason, 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


S21 


Cabell,  Loffan  and  Nicholas,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Greenbrier, 
Monroe,  Giles  and  Montgomery,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Tazewell, 
Wvihe  and  Grayson,  shall  form  ajiDther  district:  the  counties  of  WasJiiugton,  R.us- 
sell,  Scolt  and  Lee.  shall  form  auother  district:  the  counties  of  Berkeley,  ^lorgan 
and  Hampshire,  shall  form  another  district:  the  counties  of  Frederick  and  Jefierson, 
shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Shenandoali  and  Hardy,  shall  form 
another  district:  the  counties  of  Rockingham  and  Pendleton,  shall  form  angtiier 
district :  the  counties  of  Augusta  and  Rockbridge,  shall  form  another  district  :  the 
counties  of  Alleghany,  Bath  and  Botetourt,  shall  form  another  district:  tiie  counties 
of  Loudoun  and  Fairfax  shall  form  another  district:  the  counties  of  Fauquier  and 
Prince  Wihiam,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Staiford,  Kiug  George, 
Westmoreland,  Pv.ichmond,  Lancaster  and  Northumberland,  jhall  form  another  dis- 
trict :  the  counties  of  Culpeper.  Madison  and  Orange,  shall  form  another  district :  the 
counties  of  Albemarle.  Nelson  and  Amherst,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of 
Fluvanna,  Goochland,  Louisa  and  Hanover,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of 
Spottsvlvania.  Caroline  and  Esses,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  King  &, 
Queen,  King  William,  Gloucester.  ^Matthews  and  Middlesex,  shall  fonn  another  dis- 
trict :  the  counties  nf  Accomack,  Northampton.  Elizabeth  City,  Tork  and  Warwick, 
and  the  city  of  Williamsburg,  shall  form  anotlier  district:  tlie  counties  of  Charles 
City,  James  City,  New  Kent  and  Henrico,  and  the  city  of  Richmond,  shall  form  ano- 
ther district :  the  counties  of  Bedford  and  Franklin,  shall  form  another  district :  the 
counties  of  Buckingli-im,  Campbell  and  Cumberland,  shall  form  another  district:  the 
counties  of  Patrick,  Henry  and  Pittsylvania,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties 
of  Halifax  and  Mecklenburg  shall  form  another  district:  the  counties  of  Charlotte, 
Lunenburg-,  Nottoway  and  Prince  Edward,  shall  form  another  district:  the  counties 
of  AmeliaT  Powhatan  and  Chesterfield,  and  the  town  of  Petersburg,  shall  form  ano- 
ther district:  the  counties  of  Brunswick,  Dinwiddle.  Greensville  and  Prince  George, 
shall  form  another  district:  the  counties  of  Isle  of  Wight.  Southampton,  Surry  and 
Sussex,  shall  form  another  district:  and  the  counties  of  Norfolk.  Nansemond  and 
Princess  Anne,  and  the  borough  of  Norfolk,  shall  form  another  district." 
The  report  having  been  for  the  present  laid  upon  the  table. 

The  Convention  "resumed  the  consideration  of  the  amendment  moved  by  Yir. 
Stanard. 

Mr.  Henderson  called  the  attention  of  the  Chief  Justice  to  the  question,  and  re= 
quested  an  expression  of  his  opinion,  declaring  that  it  would  have  great  weighl  with 
him. 

Mr.  Marsliall  said,  that  being  thus  called  out.  it  was  not  in  his  power  to  remain 
wholly  silent.  His  opinion  was  that  the  amiendment  was  a  proper  one.  There  was 
the  same  reason,  in  part,  though  not  entirely,  for  mjaking  a  declaration  respecting  the 
power  of  a  Judge  when  out  of  court,  as  there  was  for  tliat  of  justices  in  addition  to 
the  power  of  the  County  Courts.  The  acts  performed  by  Judges  out  of  court  had 
been  very  properly  enumerated  by  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania.  The  awarding 
of  writs  of  habeas  corpus  especially,  was  always  done  out  of  court. 

The  subject  had  not  occurred  to  the  Judicial  Committee,  or  it  would  have  been  at- 
tended to  by  them  in  making  their  report.  If  acts  of  Judicial  power  were  performed 
by  Judges  out  of  court,  the  Judges  as  well  as  the  courts  ought  certainly  to  be  men- 
tioned in  the  enumeration  of  the  depositories  of  that  power. 

The  quest'on  was  then  taken,  and  the  amendment  was  carried — Aves  51. 

The  report  of  the  Select  Committee  wcLS  now  taken  up.  and  on  motion  of  Mr.  Stu= 
art  was  again  laid  upon  the  table,  and  ordered  to  be  printed. 

Mr.  Gordon  moved  to  amend  the  fourteenth  section,  (which  relates  to  the  Gover- 
nor.) by  striking  out  the  following  words  :  He  shall  be  elected  as  follows  :  At  the 
first  election  for  members  of  the  House  of  Delegates,  to  be  held  under  this  Constitu- 
tion, and  every  third  year  thereafter,  at  the  times  and  places  of  holdino'  such  elec- 
tions, in  the  several  counties  and  corporate  towns,  of  this  Commonwealth,  the  per- 
sons qualified  to  vote  for  members  of  the  General  Assembly  shall  vote  also  for  a  Go- 
vernor. A  poll  of  the  vote  so  given  in  each  election  district  shall  be  dulv  kept,  au- 
thenticated, certified,  and  laid  before  the  General  Assembly,  at  their  next  annual 
meeting,  in  such  manner  as  shall  be  prescribed  by  law.  These  polls  shall  be  e.xam- 
ined  by  a  joint-committee  of  both  Houses — the  number  of  votes  given  for  each  per- 
son as  Governor  ascertained,  and  the  result  declared  by  resolution  of  the  General 
Assembly.  The  person  havinor  the  crreatest  number  of  votes,  if  that  be  a  maioritv  of  tjie 
whole  given,  and  if  he  be  eligible  to  the  office,  shall  be  declared  duly  elected  Governor. 
If  no  such  person  have  a  majority  of  the  whole  number  of  votes  given,  then  it  shall 
be  declared  that  no  election  hath  been  made:  and  the  General  Assemblv  shall  pro- 
ceed by  joint-vote  of  both  Houses,  to  elect  a  Governor  from  those,  how  manv  soever 
there  may  be,  if  eliofible,  who  shall  have  the  two  highest  numbers  on  the  polls  :"'  and 
inserting  in  lieu  thereof:  He  shall  be  elected  by  joint  vote  of  the  two  Houses  of 
the  General  Assembly." 


822 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  G.  said,  he  had  heretofore  voted  for  the  election  of  Governor  by  the  people, 
though  he  had  never  felt  any  very  great  solicitude  on  the  subject,  because  he  never 
had  desired  to  confer  on  that  officer  any  additional  Executive  powers.  The  Conven- 
tion had  modified  that  branch  of  t.he  Constitution  so  as  to  render  the  Governor  more 
independent  of  the  Legislature  than  formerly,  by  extending  his  term  of  service  to 
three  years,  instead  of  one  year,  and  by  disqualifying  him  i'rom  being  re-elected  for 
three  years  thereafter,  and  still  more  by  prescribing  that  all  votes  in  the  Legislature 
should  be  given  viva  voce.  This  brought  the  representative  into  direct  responsibility 
to  the  people.  He  considered  these  guards  as  sufficient:  and  he  was  persuaded  that 
conducting  the  election  in  this  mode  would  conduce  to  the  repose  of  the  Common- 
wealth:  nor  would  there  be  any  just  objection  to  it,  where  the  Legislature  was  so 
formed  that  the  people  wielded  the  power  of  that  body.  He  perceived  from  one  clause 
of  the  report,  that  the  Committee  had  found  some  difficulty  on  the  subject,  as  they 
had  proposed,  that  if  a  majority  of  the  people  would  not  agree  in  the  election,  to  de- 
volve it  upon  the  Legislature. 

This  was  a  case  that  might  often  occur ;  and  he  considered  it  as  very  improper, 
that  after  the  people  had  been  excited  by  an  unsuccessful  attempt  to  elect  their 
Chief  Magistrate,  tiie  election  should  be  thrown  into  the  Assembly.  Jt  would  tend  to 
introduce  great  heats  into  that  body,  and  might  lead  to  intrigue  and  bargaining. 
With  these  views,  he  had  concluded  to  propose  the  amendment  he  had  now  offered 
to  the  Convention. 

Mr.  Morgan  moved  to  amend  the  amendment,  by  inserting  after  the  word  "  elect- 
ed," the  word  "  annually,"  and  on  this  motion,  he  asked  the  ayes  and  noes.  They 
were  taken  accordingly,  as  follows  : 

Jlijes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Williamson,  Smith,  Osborne,  Donaldson,  George,  M'- 
Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Oglesby,  Laidley,  See, 
Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Saunders,  Cabell  and  Pleasants — 20. 

JVoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond, 
Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Coffinan,  Harrison,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  M'Coy,  Moore, 
Miller,  Baxter,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph, 
Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh, 
Henderson,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Boyd,  Pendleton, 
Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Mathews,  Duncan,  Summers,  Barbour 
of  Culpeper.  Scott,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby, 
C'lmpbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Branch,  Tov/nes,  Martin,  Stuart,  Gordon,  Thompson, 
Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 74. 

The  question  then  recurring  oh  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Gordon, 

Mr.  Powell  asked  for  the  ayes  and  noes,  and  they  were  ordered  accordingly, 

Mr.  Clopton  said,  that  the  opinion  which  his  best  reflection  had  induced  him  to 
form  on  this  subject,  had  been  indicated  by  the  vote  he  gave  when  the  question  was 
before  presented  to  this  body.  The  discussion  which  had  occurred  since,  had  not 
created  in  his  mind  a  single  doubt,  as  to  the  propriety  of  an  election  of  the  Chief  Ma- 
gistrate by  the  people.  But,  he  never  had  given  a  vote  on  any  subject,  where  he 
feared  that  his  constituents  did  not  concur  with  him.  Believing  it  to  be  the  duty  of 
a  representative,  whenever  his  mind,  by  whatever  means,  had  arrived  at  moral  cer- 
tainty, as  to  the  wishes  of  a  majority  of  his  constituents,  to  obey  those  wishes,  or  to 
vacate  his  seat,  he  felt  it  his  duty,  on  the  present  occasion,  to  give  a  vote  different 
from  that  he  had  formerly  given.  He  did  tiiis  with  the  less  reluctance,  as  he  did  not 
consider  the  election  of  Governor  by  the  Legislature,  subversive  of  the  great  princi- 
ples of  free  Government.  He,  therefore,  concluded  to  yield  to  the  will  of  those,  who 
had  empowered  him  to  give  a  vote  its  full  efiect,  by  voting  in  the  affirmative. 

The  question  was  then  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Aijes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond, 
Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne, 
Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay, 
Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green, 
Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford, 
Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter, 
Joynes  and  Perrin — 50. 

JVoes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffinan,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Co}',  Moore, 
Beirne, Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell, 
Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan, 
Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan, 
Laidley,  Summers,  Seli,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Claytor, 
Saunders,  Cabell,  Stuart,  Thompson,  Bayly  and  Upshur — 46. 

Mr.  Tazewell  proposed  further  to  amend  the  section,  by  striking  out  the  words, 
"  or  on  such  other  day  as  may  from  time  to  time  be  prescribed  by  law." 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


823 


Tlie  motion  was  opposed  by  Mr.  Stanard,  and  before  any  question  was  taken,  it 
was  withdrawn  by  the  mover. 

Mr.  Thompson  moved  to  amend  the  ninth  section,  which  reads  as  follows : 

"  IX.  The  Governor,  the  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals  and  Superior  Courts, 
and  all  others  olfending  against  the  State,  either  by  mal-adminislration,  corruption, 
neglect  of  duty,  or  any  other  liigh  crime  or  misdemeanor,  shall  be  impeachable  by  the 
House  of  Delegates;  such  impeachment  to  be  prosecuted  before  the  Senate,  which 
shall  have  the  sole  power  to  try  all  impeachments.  When  sitting  for  that  purpose, 
the  Senate  shall  be  on  oath  or  affirmation  :  and  no  person  shall  be  convicted,  without 
the  concurrence  of  two-thirds  of  all  the  members  of  the  Senate.  Judgment,  in  cases 
of  impeachment,  shall  not  extend  furtlier  than  to  removal  from  office,  and  disqualifica- 
tion to  hold  and  enjoy  any  office  of  honor,  trust  or  profit,  under  the  Commonwealth; 
but  the  party  convicted  shall  nevertheless  be  liable  and  subject  to  indictment,  trial, 
judgment  and  punishment,  according  to  law  by  striking  out  the  words  of  the  Se- 
nate," and  inserting  the  word  "  present;"  so  as  to  make  it  read  "  no  person  shall  be 
convicted  without  the  concurrence  of  two-thirds  of  all  the  members  present." 

Mr.  T.  said,  he  believed  the  question  involved  in  the  amendment,  had  never  been 
decided  directly.  If  it  had,  he  was  still  supported  by  the  example  of  the  Convention, 
in  offiering  it  again,  for  the  body  was  doing  and  undoing  from  day  to  day.  He  thought 
the  requiring  of  two-thirds  of  all  the  members  constituting  the  Senate,  in  order  to 
conviction,  evinced  an  unnecessary  degree  of  caution,  and  was  calculated,  in  practice, 
to  produce  great  inconvenience — it  might  often  lead  to  the  acquittal  of  a  Judge,  when 
he  ought  to  be  condemned.  Members  might  absent  themselves  to  avoid  voting,  and 
thus  a  very  few  individuals  would  have  it  in  their  power  to  screen  an  offender.  They 
had  the  precedent  of  thirteen  of  the  State  Constitutions,  as  well  as  of  that  of  the 
United  States  in  favour  of  the  amendment  he  had  proposed.  They  pursued  its  very 
words.  He  asked  what  evil  was  likely  to  follow  its  adoption  ?  If  any  gentleman 
could  point  out  a  single  case  where  a  Judge  had  been  improperly  condemned  for  the 
want  of  such  a  rule  as  he  proposed  to  strike  out,  there  might  be  some  reason  for  re- 
taining it.  There  had  been  but  three  impeachments,  indeed  but  two  in  the  United 
States,  and  but  one  Judge  had  been  cfmvicted  in  consequence.  He  believed  nobody 
had  ever  complained  of  injustice  in  that  instance.  He  could  not  say  whether  there  had 
been  impeachments  in  the  individual  States.  In  England,  where  the  House  of  Com- 
mons was  prosecutor,  and  the  House  of  Lords  sat  as  Judges,  a  simple  majority  of  a 
quorum  of  that  House  had  power  to  convict.  And  why  should  so  different  a  practice 
prevail  here 

The  question  was  now  taken,  and  the  vote  as  counted  by  the  Chair,  stood,  ayes  45, 
noes  41  ;  but,  a  doubt  beinof  expressed  as  to  the  accuracy  of  the  count,  a  second  count 
was  ordered — when  Mr.  Thompson  called  for  the  ayes  and  noes,  and  they  were  or- 
dered by  the  House.    Before  they  were  taken,  however, 

Mr.  Scott  said,  that  he  had  been  greatly  surprised  at  the  vote  which  had  been  an- 
nounced, and  not  less  at  the  argument  in  favour  of  the  amendment.  Here,  said  Mr. 
S.,  is  a  part}'  arraigned  before  a  Judicial  tribunal — it  is  a  criminal  trial — the  Senators 
sit  as  triers  of  the  fact,  and  as  Judges  of  the  law.  Now,  if  a  slave,  the  most  abject 
in  the  Commonwealth,  is  accused  of  a  capital  crime,  he  is  brought  before  five  justices, 
and  he  cannot  be  convicted,  unless  those  five  justices  are  unaniwous  in  the  sentence. 
Again — if  the  humblest  individual  in  the  community  is  on  his  trial  for  a  crime  of  any 
sort,  he  cannot  be  pronounced  guilty,  except  his  twelve  con^-titutional  triers  are  unani- 
mous in  their  award.  But  here,  you  arraign  a  high  public  officer  before  the  Senate, 
and  two-thirds  of  a  bare  quorum  are  em.powered  to  pass  upon  him  the  heaviest  sen- 
tence of  the  law — Yes,  Sir,  I  say  the  heaviest  sentence  of  the  law,  because  character 
is  dearer  than  life,  especially  to  men  in  such  stations.  There  is  another  principle, 
which  enters  deeply  into  our  criminal  jurisprudence — It  is,  that  the  existence  of  a 
df)ubt — a  mere  doubt  as  to  the  fact  charged,  acquits  the  accused.  And  yet  the  gen- 
tleman from  Amherst  proposes,  that  where  there  was  nearly  one-third  of  the  Senate 
not  merely  in  doubt  as  to  the  guilt  of  the  accused,  but  perfectly  satisfied  of  his  inno- 
cence, he  is  not  to  have  the  benefit  of  that  doubt,  but  two  thirds  of  those  present  are 
to  convict  an  officer  of  importance  under  the  Government,  and  to  remove  him  from 
office.  Such  doctrine,  Mr.  S.  said,  was  at  war  with  ail  his  notions  on  the  subject  of 
criminal  justice. 

Mr.  Thompson  observed  in  reply,  that  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier  had  attempted 
to  liken  the  prosecution  of  a  Judge  before  the  Senate  on  an  impeachment,  to  a  crimi- 
nal trial  before  a  Court  of  Law.  There  was  no  analogy  between  the  cases,  and  could 
be  none!  The  award  pronounced  by  the  Senate,  was  not  in  the  nature  of  punish- 
ment. If  the  Judge  was  charged  with  any  criminal  offence,  the  Senate  was  not  the 
tribunal  at  which  to  try  it — he  was  turned  over  to  the  courts  for  trial,  and  for  punish- 
ment, if  he  deserved  it. 

The  charges  before  the  Senate  were  for  acts  of  a  political  character — they  did  not 
touch  character,  as  criminal  offences  and  felonies  did .    And  besides — he  could  not  see  = 


824 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


if  a  concurrence  of  two-thirds  of  the  Senate  present  was  to  destroy  a  Judge's  cha- 
racter by  their  vote,  how  the  concurrence  of  a  number  greater  than  a  majority,  but 
not  quite  amounting  to  two-thirds  in  a  similar  vote,  would  not  do  the  same  thing. 
The  difference  as  to  the  effect  on  character,  was  unworthy  of  regard.  The  cliaracter 
of  the  Judge  would  be  equally  affected,  but  his  office  would  not — true — but  that  was 
the  very  thing  to  which  he  objected.  His  ofhce  ought  to  be  taken  away  by  the  vote 
which  took  his  character  away.  In  a  free  and  intelligent  country  like  this,  no  man 
who  had  come  under  the  ban  of  a  majority  of  the  Representatives  of  the  people,  should 
continue  to  hold  his  office — still  less  a  Judge,  whose  office  was  of  such  dignity  in 
itself,  and  such  importance  to  the  Commonwealth.  The  gentleman  from  Chesterfield 
had  b'^autifully  and  truly  said,  that  the  honour  we  pay  to  a  Judge,  is  part  of  his  autho- 
rity— but  could  the  people  honour  a  Judge  condemned  by  a  majority  of  the  Legisla- 
ture of  his  State,  and  saved  only  by  the  want  of  votes  enough  to  make  up  two-thirds 
of  that  body  ?  Surely  not.  The  gentleman  had  referred  to  the  unanimity  required 
of  a  jury — but  there  was  no  more  analogy  there.  The  gentleman  was  too  good  a 
black-letter  lawyer  not  to  be  well  acquainted  with  the  origin  of  the  trial  by  jury. 
Was  the  unanimity  of  twelve  men  required  merely  as  a  test  of  the  truth  of  the  charge 
The  gentleman  knew  better — it  was  because  in  early  times  the  jurors,  if  they  gave 
in  a  false  verdict,  were  liable  to  be  attainted.  In  a  subsequent  period  the  requirement 
was  retained,  not  because  it  was  necessary  to  the  establishment  of  the  truth  of  the 
fact  charged,  but  from  a  spirit  of  civil  liberty,  and  of  mercy  to  the  accused.  It  never 
had,  nor  could  be  required  merely  as  a  test  of  truth.  The  gentleman  was  aware,  that 
jury  trial  was  not  conducted  in  the  same  manner  in  all  countries.  In  Scotland,  for 
instance,  the  jury  consisted  of  fifteen  men,  and  a  7najority  was  sufficient  to  convict- 
As  a  mere  touchstone  of  truth,  this  was  a  better  mode  than  ours.  But  the  spirit  of 
civil  liberty  had  given  value  to  the  rights  and  lives  of  the  citizens,  and  unanimity  in 
the  jury  trial  was  resorted  to  as  a  safe-guard  against  oppression.  Mr.  T.  concluded, 
by  repeating  that  his  amendment  ran  in  the  very  words  employed  in  the  Constitution 
of  the  United  States. 

Mr.  Giles  said,  that  he  was  constrained  by  a  sense  of  duty,  to  offer  some  remarks 
on  this  subject — he  should  gladly  be  silent,  but  could  not  dispense  with  the  obligations 
his  duty  imposed  upon  him.  The  gentleman  from  Fauquier,  (Mr.  Scott,)  had  consi- 
dered a  Judge  impeached  before  the  Senate,  as  a  criminal  on  trial  before  a  court. 
There  was  the  greatest  dissimilarity  imaginable  between  the  two  cases.  In  the  first 
place,  the  two  bodies  were  not  organized  alike.  The  office  of  a  jury  was  to  try  the 
facts  charged — and  though  they  rendered  a  general  verdict,  including  both  fact  and 
law,  yet  the  court  alone  was  properly  the  judge  of  the  law.  If  the  principle  of  una- 
nimity, therefore,  was  relied  on,  it  ought  to  be  unanimity  among  the  members  of 
the  court.  But,  who  ever  heard  of  perfect  unanimity's  being  required  among  the 
Judges.''  The  only  exception  was  that  in  the  case  of  the  slave;  and  that  he  consi- 
dered as  one  of  the  highest  honors  of  Virginia,  among  the  many  honors  she  had  en- 
joyed. In  the  trial  of  a  poor  abject  slave,  the  law  made  the  court  the  "  next  friend" 
of  the  slave,  to  procure  him  counsel,  and  then  it  required  absolute  unanimity  among 
his  Judges.  But  in  that  case,  there  was  no  jury — the  court  performed  the  duty  of 
both  judge  and  jury.  Another  distinction  was,  that  a  Judge  before  the  Senate,  was 
tried  in  his  political,  not  in  his  personal  capacity;  but,  a  man  on  trial  before  a  court, 
was  tried  personally,  in  his  private  character  as  a  man,  let  him  happen  to  hold  what 
office  he  might.  Here,  then,  was  a  Judge,  or  other  officer  of  the  Commonwealth, 
(for  both  the  clause  and  the  amendment  applied  to  others  as  well  as  Judges,  though 
this  seemed  to  be  forgotten,)  who  holds  a  distinguished  situation  under  the  State. 
He  receives  honour,  and  he  receives  money  for  rightly  performing  the  duties  of  it; 
and  the  question  was,  whether  he  should  retain  that  honour,  and  continue  to  receive 
the  money  of  the  public,  against  the  will  of  other  than  two-thirds  of  the  entire  num- 
ber of  the  Senate,  before  whom  he  had  been  impeached.'  Whether  all  absent  votes 
were  to  be  thrown  in  his  favour To  him  it  was  a  perfect  novelty ;  and  it  would 
have  been  the  invention  of  this  body,  if  all  absent  votes,  with  or  without  the  will  of 
the  voters,  were  to  be  thrown  into  the  scale  of  the  accused. 

The  court  and  jury  acted  on  one  uniform  principle  throughout  the  country:  but 
when  an  officer  of  high  trust  was  to  be  tried,  in  all  the  other  States,  two-thirds  of  the 
members  present  were  held  sufficient  to  convict — that  number  was  never  transcended. 
He  said  it  was  a  novelty :  he  asked  for  any  precedent  of  the  like  :  he  demanded  any 
similar  case  that  would  serve  to  justify  such  a  proceeding. 

Mr.  G.  said,  it  was  a  matter  of  real  sorrow  and  affliction  to  him  to  differ  from  gen- 
tlemen for  whom  he  had  such  very  high  regard,  and  to  differ  from  them  so  radically 
as  he  did  in  this  matter.  But,  he  must  obey  the  dictates  of  his  reason  and  conscience ; 
and  when  these  guides  taught  him  that  a  particular  course  was  right,  he  could  not 
surrender  that  conviction  to  please  any  man.  He  was  never  more  fully  and  tho- 
roughly convinced  on  any  subject :  and  when  he  had  as  a  precedent  the  practice  of 
all  the  world  with  him,  his  convictions  were  confirmed  beyond  the  possibility  of  doubt. 


DEBATES    OF    THE  CONVENTION. 


825 


He  had  had  some  experience  on  this  subject — and  it  convinced  him,  that  if  two-thirds 
of  the  entire  number  of  both  Houses  of  the  Legislature  should  be  required,  the  rule 
would  be  extremely  awkward  and  clumsy  in  practice,  and  no  test  of  responsibility  at 
all.  A  man  was  accused,  and  not  a  step  could  be  taken  in  issuing  the  accusation, 
without  an  unanimity  of  two-thirds  of  the  body  that  was  to  try  him.  A  thousand 
perplexing  questions  would  arise ;  a.nd  if  in  any  case,  one  more  than  one-third  disa- 
greed with  the  rest,  the  proceedings  could  not  go  on.  The  greatest  difnculty  might 
be  experienced  in  getting  through  even  the  initiatory  steps  of  such  a  prosecution. 
Nothing  was  more  difiicult  than  to  conduct  a  process  under  such  a  rule.  The  advan- 
tages on  the  side  of  the  accused  would  be  immensely  great. 

Mr.  G.  said,  he  had  had  no  idea,  when  they  were  called  wiih  this,  as  one  main 
object  in  view,  to  provide  a  means  of  making  Judges  responsible  for  their  conduct  in 
office,  that  the  Convention,  instead  of  that,  v/ould  go  beyond  all  former  beings  that 
ever  existed  in  the  world — beyond  all  human  tribunals,  in  making  Judges  secure 
against  all  responsibility. 

They  declared,  that  the  Legislature  might  remove  Judges — but  how  ?  By  means 
which  rendered  it  next  to  impossible.  If  they  succeeded,  it  must  be  by  the  merest 
chance  in  the  world.  How  siiould  they  appear  before  the  world  ?  How  must  they 
appear  before  themselves  ?  For  his  part,  he  had  rather  see  the  vrhole  clause  stricken 
out.  He  had  rather  gentlemen  should  go  back  at  once,  and  tell  their  constituents 
that  as  to  removing  Judges  or  punishing  them,  it  was  out  of  the  question — they  were 
responsible  to  nothing  and  nobody,  but  God  and  their  own  consciences. 

Mr.  Coalter  said,  that  to  hear  the  arguments  on  this  question,  it  would  seem  to  a 
by-stander,  that  Judges  were  the  only  persons  im.peachable  under  the  clause.  He 
could  wish  gentlemen  had  taken  in  the  Governor  as  well  as  the  Judges,  in  their  ar- 
guments, as  a  Governor  might  possibly  be  impeached  some  day  or  other.  He  was 
afraid  the  House  might  vote  witii  an  eye  to  the  Judges  only.  He  believed,  that  mem- 
bers of  the  Legislature  too  might  often  be  impeached,  or  at  least  impeachable.  He 
could  relate  a  fact  that  had  some  bearing  on  this  latter  point.  He  had  once  been  asked 
by  a  member  of  the  Legislature,  if  he  v/as  willing  to  go  to  Hell.''  He  had  answered, 
yes,  if  he  was  sure  he  could  get  back  again  without  being  scorched.  The  member 
had  then  taken  him  to  a  cellar,  at  the  door  of  which  he  gave  a  pass-word,  and  they 
entered.  After  descending  a  flight  of  steps,  they  came  to  another  door — the  pass- 
word was  given  again — they  again  descended — other  doors  were  opened — and  at  last, 
they  got  down  to  Hell  itself,  sure  enough.  There  he  saw  a  faro-bank,  and  members 
of  the  Legislature  at  play.  Now,  the  Legislature  had  declared,  that  to  keep  a  faro- 
bank,  or  play  at  one,  was  a  Penitentiary  oifence.  Now,  he  asked  whether  a  Judge 
would  not  be  impeached,  if  it  were  knov/n  that  he  did  such  things  ?  And  why  mem- 
bers of  Assembly  were  not  impeachable  for  the  same  offence  ?  He  thought  it  probable 
they  should  have  some  oiienders  for  the  Senate  to  try.  Hitherto,  Judges  had  been 
responsible  only  to  God  and  their  own  consciences,  but  in  future  it  was  not  to  be  so. 
The  Scripture  declared,  that  a  man  could  not  serve  two  masters;  that  a  man  could 
not  serve  God  and  Mammon.  Now.  he  believed,  a  man  could  not  serve  God  and  the 
Legislature  of  Virginia — he  could  not  certainly  please  both.  But  where  a  man's 
treasure  was,  there  would  his  heart  be  also — and  as  the  Judge's  treasure  would  be  at 
the  mercy  of  the  Legislature,  he  supposed  that  his  heart  Vv^ould  be  in  the  Legislature 
also.  He  concluded,  by  expressing  his  hope  that  gentlemen  would  vote  with  a  view 
to  all  future  Judges,  not  to  all  past  Judges. 

The  question  was  now  taken  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

.liijes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Giles,  Dromgoole,  Tyler,  Anderson, 
Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller, 
Baxter,  Trezvant,  Randolph,  Venabie,  Holladay,  Mercer,  Osborne,  Powell,  Naylor, 
Donaldson,  Boyd,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  V/ashington,  Byars,  Roane,  Taylor 
of  Caroline,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See, 
Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Tazewell,  Campbell  of  Bedford, 
Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Bayly  and  Perrin — 55. 

jYoes — Messrs.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Erodnax,  Alexander, 
Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton, 
Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Madison,  Stanard,  Fitzhugh,  Hen- 
derson, Cooke,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Pendleton,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of 
Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch, 
Townes,  Pleasants,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes  and  Upshur — 41. 

So  the  amendment  prevailed,  and  the  Convention  agreed  that  two-thirds  of  the  mem- 
bers present  in  the  Senate,  were  competent  to  convict  an  officer  impeached  before 
that  body. 

Mr.  Stuart  now  moved  to  amend  the  twenty-eighth  section,  which  reads  as  follows: 
"  XXVni.  Judges  may  be  removed  from  office  by  a  concurrent  vote  of  both 
Houses  of  the  General  Assembly ;  but  two-thirds  of  the  whole  number  elected  to 
each  House  must  concur  in  such  vote,  and  the  cause  of  removal  shall  be  entered  on 

104 


S2G 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION, 


the  Journals  of  eacli.  The  Judge  against  whom  the  Legislature  may  be  about  to  pro- 
ceed, shall  receive  notice  thereof,  accompanied  with  a  copy  of  the  causes  alleged  for 
his  removal,  at  least  twenty  days  before  the  day  on  which  either  House  of  the  Gene- 
ral Assembly  sliall  act  thereupon;"  by  striking  out  "  elected  to,"  each  House,  and 
inserting  "  of  the  members  of  each  House. 

Mr.  S.  explained  the  object  of  his  amendment  in  a  few  words,  and  observed,  that 
as  it  stood,  the  article  would  be  inefficient  in  practice,  as  eleven  men  in  the  Senate 
would  control  the  proceedings,  and  prevent  a  conviction. 

Mr.  Scott  said,  that  all  the  amendments  offered,  and  all  the  arguments  advanced  to 
support  them,  seemed  to  be  based  on  the  supposition  that  every  officer  against  whom 
any  chai'ge  was  prosecuted  must  be  guilty  as  of  course,  and  the  main  point  to  be  at- 
tained was  a  facility  in  convicting  him  :  it  did  not  appear  to  have  occurred  to  the  gen- 
tlemen that  an  accused  man  might  be  innocent,  and  nobody  seemed  to  be  at  all  anxious 
about  placing  any  guards  against  the  innocent. 

Mr.  Giles  said,  tliat  to  his  mind  the  course  pursued  seemed  directly  the  reverse. 
Gentlemen  who  were  for  throwing  these  multiplied,  these  unheard-of  guards  around 
the  Jiidges,  seemed  to  be  conscious  that  they  were  guilty,  and  must  be  shielded  by  all 
possible  means  :  so  they  had  barricadoed  them  on  every  side,  till  conviction  was  im- 
possible. 

The  question  was  at  length  taken  on  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Stuart,  and  decided  hy 
ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Jlyes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Giles,  Drom- 
goole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Anderson,  Coffinan,  Harrison,  Williamson,  M'Coy,  Moore, 
Ceirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Mercer,  Osborne,  Nay- 
lor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Roane, 
Taylor  of  Caroline,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Sum- 
mers, See,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor, 
Saunders,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bayly  and  Perrin — 52. 

A''oes — Messrs.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Brodnax,  Marshall  of  Richmond,  Tyler,  Nicho- 
las, Clopton,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Ur- 
quhart,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Hoiladay,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Cooke, 
Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Pendleton,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpe- 
per,  Scott,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch, 
Townes,  Pleasants,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes  and  Upshur— 43. 

So  the  amendment  was  agreed  to. 

Mr.  Garnett  moved  to  amend  the  twelfth  section,  by  striking  out  all  that  related  to 
admitting  housekeepers  and  heads  of  families  to  the  Right  of  Suffix-age. 

He  declined  going  into  any  discussion  of  the  subject,  it  having  been  already  fully  ar- 
gued:  all  he  purposed  was  to  make  one  more,  and  the  last  trial,  to  have  this  feature 
erased. 

But  the  hour  being  late,  (past  four  o'clock,)  the  House  agreed  to  postpone  the  con- 
sideration  of  Mr.  Garnett's  amendment  until  to-morrow:  and  then  adjourned. 


FRIDAY,  January  8,  1830. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Sykes  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

A  memorial  was  laid  before  the  Convention  by  the  President  from  Alexander  Smyth, 
as  follows : 

To  ike  Convention  of  the  Conimonzvcalth  of  Virginia,  the  Memorial  of  Alexander  Smyth 

represents  : 

That  he  has  seen  a  copy  of  an  amended  Constitution,  proposed  by  a  Committee  of 
your  body,  in  which  is  the  following  clause  :  "  No  person  shall  be  eligible  to  the  office 
of  Governor,  unless  he  shall  have  attained  the  age  of  thirty  years,  shall  be  a  native 
citizen  of  the  United  States,  and  shall  have  been  a  citizen  of  this  Commonwealth  for 
five  years  next  preceding  his  election." 

Your  memorialist  was  born  in  a  small  island  in  Europe,  called  on  maps  Rathlin,by 
some  writers  Ratherin,  and  celebrated  as  the  asylum  of  Robert  Bruce  ;  he  was  brought 
to  Virginia  a  child  in  1775,  and  bred  in  that  Commonwealth  ;  he  was  a  member  of  the 
Legislature  of  Virginia  in  1792,  179G,  1800,  1804,  1805,  1806, 1807, 1808, 1816, 1827, 
and  is  now  serving  his  eleventh  session  as  a  member  of  the  Congress  of  the  United 
States,  from  Virginia. 

Your  memorialist  has  no  desire  to  fill  the  office  of  Governor  of  the  Commonwealth 
of  Virginia  ;  but  he  would  feel  aggrieved  by  an  enactment  declaring  him  (who  has 
been  fifty -four  years  a.  citizen  and  inhabitant  ,  and  is  the  grand-lather  of  sixteen  native 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


827 


Virginians,)  ineligible,  especially  when  it  is  to  be  declared  that  a  native  of  iSew  Or- 
leans or  Pensacola,  born  and  bred  under  the  Spanish  Government,  and  who  may  have 
resided  in  Virginia  five  years,  shall  be  elicrible. 

Your  memorialist  considers  that  ail  those  who  were  horn  British  subjects  before  the 
revolution,  and  became  citizens  of  the  United  States  by  that  event,  whether  born  in 
Europe,  the  West  Indies,  or  in  the  North  American  Colonies,  have  equal  rights;  they 
are  natural  born  citizens,  and  not  naturahzed  citizens. 

Your  memorialist  requests  a  re-consideration  of  the  said  clause ;  and  that  it  may  be 
amended,  so  as  to  save  the  equal  rights  of  citizens  who  became  such  by  the  revolu- 
tion, wherever  born. 

Wliich  is  respectfully  submitted. 

ALEXANDER  SMYTH. 
On  motion  of  Mr.  Summers  it  was  laid  upon  the  table. 

The  Convention  then  proceeded  to  the  uutinished  business  of  yesterday,  which  was 
the  consideration  of  the  amendment  proposed  by  Mr.  Garnett.  viz  :  to  strike  out  in  the 
twelfth  article  of  the  draughted  Constitution,  the  clause  wliicli  extends  the  Right  of 
Suffrage  to  housekeepers  and  heads  of  famihes. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  proposed  to  amend  the  amendment  by  striking  out  the  same  words, 
and  inserting  in  lieu  thereof  a  different  proposition. 

The  question  then  recurring  on  the  motion  to  strike  out,  simply, 

Mr.  Powell  asked  a  division  of  the  question  on  striking  out  and  inserting;  when, 
after  a  short  conversation,  Mr.  Fitzhugh  withdrew  the  amendment. 

Mr.  Wilson  said,  that  he  should  vote  against  the  motion;  but  should  it  prevail,  he 
should  then  move  to  insert  an  amendment,  which  he  read  in  his  place. 

Mr.  Mercer  expressed  his  hope  that  none  of  those  who  approved  of  the  clause  as  it 
stood,  would  be  induced  to  vote  to  strike  it  out,  from  any  hope  that  either  of  the  pro- 
positions which  had  been  read  could  possibly  carry.  That  movement  had  been  tried 
with  respect  to  the  Executive  Council,  and  had  resulted  only  in  a  ten  days'  discussion. 

The  question  was  then  taken  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode.  Marshall  of  Piichmond, 
Tyler,  Nicholas,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne.  Urquhart,  Randolph, 
Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Fitzhugh.  Roane,  Taj'lor  of 
Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  2>Iarftliall  of  Fauquier, 
Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose  and  Coalter — 40. 

JVoes — Messrs.  Clopton,  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Vv'illiamson,  Baldwin, 
M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  INIadison,  Mercer.  Flenderson,  Osborne, 
Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naj^lor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton, 
George,  M'Millan, "Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews, 
Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  SeerDoddridge.  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke, 
Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Tov/nes,  Cabell,  2^Iartin,  Stuart, 
Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 55. 

So  the  House  refused  to  strike  out  the  clause  extending  the  Right  of  Suffrage  to 
housekeepers  and  heads  of  families. 

Mr.  Claytor  moved  to  amend  the  section  by  striking  out  the  wwds  who  for  twelve 
months  next  preceding  has  been  a  housekeeper  andi  head  of  a  family,"  and  inserting 
the  words  "  who  has  resided"'  within  the  county,  city,  town,  borough,  or  election 
district,  where  he  may  ofier  to  vote. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  if  this  amendment  should  prevail,  it  would  be  better  at  once  to 
strike  out  the  entire  section,  and  insert  this  clause  alone  :  because  it  conferred  Univer- 
sal Sufirage. 

Mr.  Stanard  said,  this  proposition  went  beyond  all  that  had  yet  been  offered.  A  mail 
might  become  a  resident  the  day  before  the  election,  and  would  by  this  be  entitled 
to  vote. 

Mr.  Claytor  said,  that  such  had  not  been  his  intention  ;  he  was  wilhng  to  restore 
the  words  "  for  twelve  months  next  preceding." 

Mr.  Powell  moved  to  amend  the  amendment  by  inserting  two  years""  instead  of 
"  twelve  months." 

jNIr.  Claytor  accepted  this  as  a  modification. 

Mr.  Stuart  moved  to  amend  the  amendment  thus  modified,  by  addaig  and  who  has 
been  the  son  of  a  freeholder"  within  the  county,  &c. 

A  conversation  now  ensued,  in  consequence  of  the  absence  of  several  members  from 
indisposition,  wliicli  resulted  in  a  permission  for  them  to  vote  to-morrow  on  any  ques= 
tions  which  should  be  put  to-day. 

The  question  was  then  put  ou  Mr.  Claytor's  amendment,  and  decided  by  ayes  and 
noes  as  follows  : 

Aijcs — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Wiiliamson.  iNFCoy,  Moore,  Beirne, 
Smith.  Miller.  Baxter,  Mercer,  Henderson,  0.iborne,  Cooke,  Pov/ell,  Mason  of  Fre- 
derick-, Nnvlor,  Don:j.ldf:Oit    E^^x'^    George,  M  Millan"  Campbejl  of  WaHhingfon, 


628 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge, 
Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Stuart,  Gordon, 
Thompson,  Joynes,  Bayly  and  Upshur— 43. 

Xocs — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Eroduax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond, 
Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Baldwin,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne, 
Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Hahfax,  Logan,  V^enable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay, 
Fitzhugh,  Griggs,  Pendleton,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour 
of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby, 
Campbell  of  Bedford,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale, 
Rose,  Coalter  and  Perrin— 51. 

Mr.  Cooke  then,  after  a  few  prefatory  remarks,  explaining  w^hy  he  offered  his  pro- 
position at  this  mom.ent,  moved  the  following  to  be  added  to  the  draught  of  the  Con- 
stitution, to  be  inserted  after  the  fourth,  as  a  fitth  article  : 

It  shall  be  the  duty  of  the  Legislature  to  re-apportion,  once  in  ten  years,  to  wit,  in 
the  year  1841,  and  every  ten  years  thereafter,  the  representation  of  the  counties,  cities, 
towns  and  boroughs  of  this  Cornmonwtalth,  in  both  of  the  Legislative  bodies ;  provided, 
however,  that  the  number  of  Delegates  from  the  aforesaid  four  great  districts,  and  the 
number  of  Senators  from  the  aforesaid  two  great  divisions  respectively,  shall  neither  be 
increased  nor  diminished  by  such  re-apportionment.  And  when  a  new  county  shall 
hereafter  be  created,  or  any  city,  town  or  borough,  not  now  entitled  to  separate  repre- 
sentation in  the  House  of  Delegates,  shall  have  so  increased  in  population  as  to  be 
entitled,  in  the  opinion  of  the  General  Assembly,  to  such  representation,  it  shall  be 
the  duty  of  the  General  Assembly  to  make  provision  by  law  for  securing  to  the  peo- 
ple of  such  new  county,  or  such  city,  town  or  borough,  an  adequate  representation. 
And  if  the  object  cannot  otherwise  be  effected,  it  shall  be  competent  to  the  General 
Assembly  to  re-apportion  the  whole  representation  of  the  great  district  containing  such 
new  county,  or  such  city,  town  or  borough,  within  its  limits;  which  re-apportionment 
shall  continue  in  force  until  the  next  regular  decennial  re-apportionment." 

Mr.  Cooke  expressed  his  hope,  that  a  provision  of  this  kind  might  reconcile  some  to 
the  present  arrangement  of  representation,  when  they  found  that  there  was  a  possi- 
bility of  having  any  injustice  under  which  they  might  labour,  in  consequence  of  the 
apportionment  by  the  Committee,  remedied  by  a  re-apportionment  of  their  division  of 
the  State  after  ten  years. 

Mr.  Summers  said,  if  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr. 
Cooke,)  had  contained  a  provision  for  future  equahzation  of  the  Representatives  among 
the  four  districts  of  the  State,  as  well  as  an  authority  to  equalize  within  those  districts, 
he  should  have  gladly  given  it  his  support.  While  the  amendment  looked  to  the  per- 
petuity of  the  present  distribution  as  between  the  different  quarters  of  the  Common- 
wealth, he  could  but  esteem  it  as  utterly  valueless,  if  not  injurious.  It  gave  counte- 
nance and  confidence,  he  thought,  to  the  continuation  of  the  present  unequal  distribu- 
tion, and  might  in  its  tendencies  exclude  the  hope  of  justice  with  reference  to  the  fu- 
ture. With  those  impressions  on  his  mind,  and  in  furtherance  of  that  anxious  desire 
which  he  felt  for  the  adoption  of  a  rule  for  future  apportionments,  which  would  se- 
cure to  the  people  of  the  West  in  some  degree  the  benefits  which  ought  to  result  to 
them  from  the  accessions  of  numbers,  wealth,  and  public  contributions  in  that  quarter 
of  the  State,  he  should  offer  a  substitute  for  the  gentleman's  additional  article.  Mr. 
S.  said,  his  rule  for  future  apportionment  had  the  advantage  of  avoiding  all  the  con- 
tested rules  heretofore  proposed.  It  equally  departed  from  white  population  and  Fe- 
deral numbers.  It  looked  to  the  class  which  many  gentlemen  here  regard  as  the  only 
sxfe  depositories  of  the  sovereign  power — the  freeholders ;  and  proposed  to  equalize  re  - 
presentation in  the  future  according  to  the  num.ber  of  the  resident  owners  of  the  soil,  in 
the  different  quarters  of  the  State.  To  avoid  the  objection  which  had  been  urged  as 
to  what  was  here  called  nominal  freeholders,  he  proposed  that  those  only  should  be 
computed  who  resided  on  the  land  by  virtue  of  which  they  voted  ;  or,  who  residing  in 
some  one  of  the  counties  should  own  therein  a  freehold  estate  of  the  value  of  $25. 
In  submitting  this  proposition,  he  was  aware  that  it  gave  the  West  less  than  its  pro- 
per representation,  but  it  approached  that  desirable  result,  and  would  he  hoped  be  re- 
ceived as  it  was  proposed,  in  a  spirit  of  concession  and  compromise.  He  then  sub- 
mitted the  following  substitute  for  Mr.  Cooke's  fifth  article  : 

"  For  the  purpose  of  future  apportionments  of  Senators  and  Delegates,  the  General 
Assembly  shall  cause  registers  from  time  to  time  to  be  formed,  of  the  freehold  voters 
in  the  several  counties,  cities,  towns,  and  boroughs,  in  which  shall  be  ascertained  the 
number  of  qualified  freehold  voters  in  each,  residing  on  the  land  in  virtue  of  which 
such  right  is  founded;  and  also  the  number  of  qualified  freehold  voters  not  residing 
on  the  land  in  riglit  of  which  they  vote,  but  whose  freehold  estate  therein  shall  be 
ol  the  assessed  value  of  twenty-five  dollars  and  upwards  :  That  in  the  year  1S35,  and 
every  tenth  year  thereafter,  it'  sliall  be  the  duty  of  the  General  Assembly  to  re-ap- 
portion the  Senators  and  Dcle/rates  among  the  several  counties,  cities,  towns,  and 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


829 


election  districts,  as  nearly  as  may  be,  in  proportion  to  the  registered  freehold  voters 
in  each,  vrithout  dividing  counties  in  the  formation  of  ejection  districts:  but  no 
re-apportionment  of  Senators  shall  go  into  operation  but  as  succeeding  elections  shall 
take  place."' 

3Ir.  Cooke  explained.  He  had  not  offered  his  plan  as  doing  justice  to  the  State, 
but  as  mitigating  the  injustice  of  the  arrangement,  which  Jiad  been  agreed  upon,  by 
remed^-ing  county  inequalities,  icithin  the  four  divisions  of  the  Commonwealth.  He 
shoula  have  offered  some  such  plan  as  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Kanawha,  but  he 
feared  it  could  not  succeed.  He  was  contented  to  take  what  he  could  get,  and  not 
lose  that,  by  reaching  after  what  was  unattainable.  He  should,  however,  vote  for  the 
gentleman's  proposition. 

Mr.  Leigh  observed,  that  the  proposition  of  ISIr.  Cooke,  went  on  the  principle 
wKich  had  been  adopted  by  the  Convention,  and  only  carried  it  out,  so  as  to  remedy 
inconveniences  and  inequalities  in  the  detail.  He  considered  the  plan  of  Mr.  Sum- 
mers, as  virtually  the  same  as  that  which  had  been  offered  by  Isli.  Stuart,  and  rejected 
by  the  House.  All  who  were  in  favour  of  the  draughted  Constitution,  would  vote 
against  it. 

Mr.  Stuart  said,  the  gentleman  was  mistaken,  if  he  supposed  this  to  be  the  same 
with  the  plan  he  had  offered.  He  preferred  the  plan  of  -\lr.  Summers,  to  that  of  Mr. 
Cooke — because  the  former  respected  the  whole  Commonwealth  3  whereas  the  lat- 
ter established  four  different  Commonwealths,  and  did  not  prescribe  what  should  be 
the  principle  of  apportionment,  even  in  them. 

Mr.  Cooke  denied  that  his  proposition  established  these  four  Commonwealths  :  it 
found  them  established  by  a  vote  of  the  Convention ;  and  it  only  remedied  the  evils 
they  must  otherwise  suffer. 

Mr.  Summers  in  reply,  remarked  that  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield,  (Mr. 
Leigh.)  had  been  as  unfortunate  in  supposing  the  plan  of  future  apportionment, 
which  he  Qsh.  S.)  had  submitted,  was  in  substance  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Rich- 
mond county,  as  he  had  been  in  the  first  instance  in  regarding  it  as  the  counterpart 
of  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Patrick,  (.Jr.  Stuart.) 

The  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Richmond  county  looked  to  re-apportion- 
ment only  in  the  House  of  Delegates:  the  one  under  consideration  embraced  both 
branches  of  the  Legislature — Thaf  plan  proposed  an  enumeration  of  freeholds  of  twen- 
ty-five dollars  only — this  contemplates  all  freeholds  without  regard  to  value,  where 
the  freeholder  resides  on  the  land,  and  refers  the  value  to  those  only  which  are  not  occu- 
pied by  the  owner.  If,  said  3Ir.  S.,  the  freehold  qualification  is  as  gentlemen  con- 
tend, tne  only  safe,  and  satisfactory  evidence  of  that  common  interest  which  ought  to 
give  the  elective  franchise,  he  hoped  it  would  be  accepted  as  the  proper  criterion  for 
apportioning  the  political  power.  If  it  was  true  that  the  sovereignty  ought  to  reside 
with  the  freeholders,  it  must  be  equally  true  that  they  ought  to  hold  it  iii  equal  por- 
tions, and  that  representation  ought  to  be  regulated  by  their  numbers.  He  rejected 
the  opinion  that  it  would  operate  to  prevent  the  acceptance  of  the  Constitution  by 
the  people,  and  contended  that  the  strongest  ground  of  opposition  would  be  the  want 
of  some  provision  accommodating  the  future  representation  to  the  varying  condition 
and  situation  of  the  people,  and  securing  to  them  equal  weight  in  tlie  Government: 
That  nothing  would  form  so  strong  an  incentive  to  their  acceptance,  as  a  provision 
approximating  an  equality  of  representation  hereafter. 

As  to  the  objection  founded  on  the  inequality  of  this  rule,  as  applicable  to  different 
portions  of  the  State,  he  thought  tlie  gentleman  from  Loudoun  (Mr.  Mercer)  as  well 
as  some  others  had  overrated  it.  The  registered  freeholds  certainly  would  not  be 
found  to  give  precisely  the  same  results  ever)'  where,  but  he  had  examined  the  pro- 
bable effect  which  this  rule  vrould  have  on  the  four  divisions  of  the  State,  by  the  few 
lights  which  offered  themselves  with  reference  to  this  enquiry  :  and  he  would  place 
before  the  House  the  facts  which  he  had  examined,  and  the  conclusions  to  which  they 
conducted.  The  number  of  votes  on  the  question  of  "Convention,"  or  Xo  Con- 
vention," in  ltf2S,  were  38,53:3 — apportioning  representation  in  the  different  districts 
according  to  the  votes  then  given,  would  in  a  House  of  Delegates  of  one  hundred 
and  twenty-eight  members  give  to  the 

Western  District.  -  -  37 

Valley.      -        '  -  -  -  23 

Midland.    -  -  •-  -  36 

Tide-water,  -  -  32 

128 

In  the  same  year  an  animated  election  took  place  for  electors  of  President  of  the 
United  Stales,  at  vrhich  was  given  throughout  the  Commonwealth,  38,719  votes — Ap- 
portiorhng  by  this  manifestation  of  the  freehold  strength  in  the  different  districts,  the 
representation  would  be  for  the 


830 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


31 

25 
40 
32 

128 

A  comparison  of  the  votes  given  on  the  two  occasions  shewed,  that  the  West  had 
taken  the  deepest  interest,  and  given  the  largest  vote  on  the  first,  and  the  East  on  the 
second,  and  taking  the  tAVO  elections  together,  and  their  combined  results  as  giving 
the  relative  number  of  freeholders,  which  he  thought  might  safely  be  admitted,  an 
apportionment  founded  on  this  average  would  give  to  the 

Western  District,  -  -  -  34 

Valley,     -  -  -  -  24 

Midland,   -  -  -  -  38 

Tide-water,  -  -  -  32 

128 

He  combated  the  hypothesis  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  (Mr.  Gordon,)  who 
liad  contended  that  freeholds  were  necessarily  larger  in  districts  where  slaves  were 
held  in  great  numbers,  than  where  the  ground  was  tilled  by  white  persons.  He  in- 
sisted that  in  the  grazing  districts,  where  pasturage  furnished  the  principal  profits,  the 
freeholds  must  necessarily  be  larger  than  in  the  planting  or  farming  country,  and  that 
where  slaves  constituted  the  labouring  class,  a  greater  proportion  of  the  free  popula- 
tion would  be  found  owners  of  the  soil,  than  in  a  community  where  the  labour  was 
performed  by  hired  white  men.  In  the  first  the  labourers  were  in  addition  to  the 
white  community,  in  the  latter  they  were  a  part  of  it. 

Mr.  S.  expressed  his  anxious  desire  for  the  adoption  of  some  satisfactory  rule  of 
future  apportionment,  with  which  he  believed  the  people  would  accept  the  Constitu- 
tion— and  urged  the  acceptance  of  the  one  which  he  had  offered,  as  forming  a  just 
medium  between  the  contested  claims  of  the  two  sides  of  the  Convention,  and  the 
true  half-way  house  where  all  might  amicably  meet  in  concord.  Concessions  were  de- 
manded, and  no  man  felt  more  disposed  to  make  them,  provided  they  were  mutual ; 
and  he  sincerely  hoped  that  his  proposition  would  be  found  acceptable  to  a  majority 
of  the  House.    He  asked  for  the  ayes  and  noes. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  that  nothing  but  the  most  imperious  sense  of  duty  could  induce 
him  for  one  minute  to  retard  the  dissolution  of  that  body.  He  had  risen  to  express 
his  regret,  that  he  was  unable  to  vote  for  the  scheme  of  his  friend  from  Frederick :  his 
objection  to  it  was,  that  it  went  to  perpetuate  the  dividing  lines  which  separated  the 
State  into  distinct  parts :  besides,  should  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Fred- 
erick succeed,  instead  of  having  an  apportionment  for  the  present,  and  leaving  the 
rest  to  futurity,  it  presented  the  idea  to  the  people  that  they  were  to  have  a  perpetuity 
of  the  injustice  which  the  present  apportionment  iniiicted  upon  them. 

It  might  possibly  recommend  the  Constitution  to  the  adoption  of  some  of  the 
large  counties  which  expected  hereafter  to  be  sub-divided,  but  this  consideration 
would  be  very  limited  in  its  extent.  The  effect  upon  the  entire  West  would  be  to 
produce  utter  hopelessness  of  any  effectual  remedy  for  the  evil  they  complained  of, 
and  must  thus  seal  the  fate  of  the  new  Constitution.  It  would  give  him  pleasure  if 
he  could  vote  for  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Kanawha ;  but  the  plan  would  ope- 
rate so  unequally  that  it  was  out  of  his  power.  To  shew  this  by  one  example :  the 
votes  according  to  the  gentleman's  plan  would  be  nearly  equal  in  his  own  district  to 
what  they  were  in  the  Bedford  district,  and  the  Pittsylvania  district :  though  the  two 
latter  now  gave  2700  each,  while  the  Loudoun  district  gave  less  than  1300. 

Mr.  Cooke  said  he  was  surprised  to  find  that  he  was  again  charged  with  perpetuat- 
ing injustice  by  his  scheme. 

Mr.  Mercer  said  the  gentleman  had  not  originated  the  injustice,  but  his  scheme 
went  to  give  it  perpetuity. 

Mr.  Cooke  said,  he  had  given  it  no  perpetuity:  the  injustice  would  be  just  as  per- 
petual without  his  scheme  as  with  it.  The  only  difference  between  his  plan  and  that 
now  in  the  Constitution  was,  that  the  latter  went  to  perpetuate  the  injustice  within 
the  great  districts  as  much  as  it  did  between  one  of  those  districts  and  another; 
whereas  his  went  to  remedy  the  injustice  as  between  county  and  county  laitJmi  those 
districts.  The  principle  from  which  the  general  injustice  flowed  was  already  adopted, 
and  settled  by  a  distinct  vote  of  this  body,  and  it  had  by  that  vote  been  rendered  per- 
petual :  all  he  did  was  to  mitigate  its  operation  in  detail. 

Mr.  Gordon  said,  he  should  vote  for  Mr.  Cooke's  amendment,  and  against  that  of 
Mr.  Summers.  He  saw  in  the  former  a  spirit  of  conciliation  :  it  went  to  relieve  sec- 
tional inequalities,  and  thus  tended  to  bring  about  those  results  of  harmony  which 
every  friend  of  his  country  ought  to  desire.  The  inequalities  within  the  separate  di- 
visions of  the  State  being  local  and  county  questions^  would  involve  the  same  diffi- 


Western  District, 
Valley,  - 
Midland,  - 
Tide-water, 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


831 


cullies  or  produce  the  game  sort  of  excitement  as  had  been  encountered  in  the  pre- 
sent Convention,  where  tlie  great  opposing  interests  of  the  whole  State  were  in  con- 
flict. But  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Kanawha  set  the  whole  question  of  repre- 
sentation again  afloat :  it  would  operate  most  unequally  in  practice.  The  freeholds 
were  necessarily  larger  in  a  great  slave-holding  district  than  in  a  district  of  the  same 
extent,  inhabited  wholly  by  a  white  population :  in  this  respect,  the  plan  would  bear 
hardly  on  the  lower  country  ;  and  particularly  in  his  own  district,  which  was  largely 
interested  in  slave  property. 

Mr.  George  rose  to  congratulate  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  on  his  happy  dis- 
position, which  enabled  hirii  with  such  perfect  ease  to  change  his  sentiments  to  suit 
every  new  posture  of  affairs.  When  that  gentleman  had  first  appeared  in  the  Con- 
vention, nothing  would  suit  him  but  a  basis  of  free  white  population :  the  gentleman 
would  not  so  much  as  listen  to  any  thing  but  the  white  basis.  Now,  he  was  most  anx- 
iously engaged  in  guarding  the  slave-holding  portion  of  the  State.  The  gentleman's 
one,  and  only  object  seemed  to  be  to  guard  his  own  proposition ;  and  he  turned  for  or 
against  any  measure  proposed,  just  as  it  threatened  to  affect  that  proposition.  He  had 
risen  expressly  with  a  view  to  congratulate  the  gentleman,  which  he  did  most  heartily, 
on  this  his  happy  disposition. 

Mr.  Gordon  said,  that  he  utterly  denied  and  repudiated  the  unfounded  imputation 
of  the  gentleman  from  Tazewell.  He  had  changed  none  of  the  opinions  he  had 
brought  with  him  to  that  Convention,  in  relation  to  the  proper  and  just  basis  of  re- 
presentation. He  had  contended  from  the  first,  and  he  had  never  retracted  the  posi- 
tion, that  white  population  was  the  true  basis.  He  still  held  that  sentiment.  He 
wished  it  had  been  in  his  power  to  congratulate  the  gentleman  from  Tazewell,  on  his 
disposition  for  conciliation  and  compromise.  For  his  own  part,  he  did  not  profess  or 
desire  an  incapacity  to  receive  light  from  argument,  especially  argument  so  able  as 
such  as  was  heard  in  that  assembly.  Pie  never  had  considered  wisdom  to  consist 
in  a  dogged  obstinacy,  that  persevered  against  every  consideration  of  policy  and  all 
the  force  of  reason.  The  gentleman's  charge  gave  him  little  concern :  his  withers 
were  unwrung,  nor  should  he  have  felt  the  gibe  at  all,  save  in  the  unkind  spirit 
which  it  betrayed. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke  said,  that  if  he  had  been  put  to  the  torture  to  devise  a 
mode  of  perpetuating  the  injustice  done  by  the  present  scheme  of  apportionment  be- 
tween the  Eastern  and  Western  portions  of  the  State,  he  could  not  have  invented  a 
more  eff*ectual  one  than  that  which  had  been  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from  Frede- 
rick, (Mr.  Cooke.)  It  forever  precluded  (so  far  as  that  word  could  be  applied  to  human 
things)  all  hope  of  any  redress  of  existing  grievances.  The  only  hope  of  such  re- 
lief consisted  in  this,  that  the  plan  would  operate  so  unequally  within  the  four  great 
divisions  of  the  State,  tha.t  it  would  at  last  produce  some  sympathy  for  the  unjust 
treatment  of  the  Western  part  of  the  State.  As  to  present  justice,  the  hope  had  been 
completely  cut  off" ;  and  their  only  resort  was  the  hope  that  the  plan  could  be  found 
to  operate  so  unfairly  and  so  oppressively,  that  others  would  be  induced  to  co-operate 
with  them  in  obtaining  redress  :  if  the  plan  did  not  operate  so,  they  could  have  no 
prospect  of  obtaining  allies  to  their  cause  from  other  parts  of  the  State.  This  mea- 
sure would  go  far  to  destroy  that  hope  ;  and  conceiving  it  to  be  thus  hostile  to  the  in- 
terests of  the  West,  he  should  vote  against  it. 

Mr.  Randolph  said,  that  as  at  present  advised,  he  should  vote  for  the  proposition  of 
the  gentleman  from  Frederick ;  and  for  what  appeared  to  him  to  be  the  plainest  of  all 
possible  reasons.  Two  alternatives  were  presented  to  them  :  the  one  was,  should  the 
apportionment  proposed  by  the  Select  Committee,  if  it  should  be  agreed  to  by  the 
House — be  unchangeable  ?  or,  if  in  practice  it  should  be  found  to  prove  unequal, 
should  it  be  modified  by  the  Legislature  in  such  a  manner  as  might  suit  the  circum- 
stances of  the  country  ?  The  measure,  as  he  had  understood  it,  did  not  involve  the 
question  as  to  the  perpetuity  of  that  plan  of  apportionment  which  had  been  agreed 
upon  as  a  compromise,  by  the  two  sides  of  the  House  :  it  had  nothing  to  do  with  it. 
Let  that  proposition  be  withdrawn  altogether,  and  where  was  any  thing  in  the  Con- 
stitution which  warranted  a  change  in  the  apportionment  ?  One  thing  was  sure ;  the 
county  of  Loudoun  would  be  secure  in  her  three  Delegates,  ad  indcfinituvi.  Loudoun, 
Frederick  and  Shenandoah  were  sure  of  their  three  portions  of  the  public  estate  ad 
indejinitum.  If  there  was  any  perpetuity  in  the  matter — that  was  the  perpetuity. 
He  had  been  sorry  when  the  House  had  devolved  upon  the  Select  Committee  a  task 
that  could  be  better  performed  by  the  House  of  Burgesses.  They  could  make  an  ap- 
portionment among  the  counties  and  Senatorial  districts,  that  would  suit  much  better 
than  any  the  Convention  were  likely  to  agree  upon.  Was  it  not  obvious  that  without 
some  such  proposition  of  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick — supposing  the  re- 
port of  the  Committee  to  be  adopted  by  the  Convention,  and  their  apportionment  to 
stand — that  the  great  and  wealthy  counties  of  Chesterfield,  Caroline,  Spottsylvania 
and  Southampton,  (not  to  enumerate  others)  would  stand  to  Loudoun  as  one  to  three? 
He  had  not  the  returns  of  the  Auditor  before  him,  and  could  not  refer  to  figures ;  but 


832 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


he  was  very  sure  there  was  no  sort  of  principle  which  could  justify  the  perpetuation  of 
tills  monstrous,  this  crying  injustice.  He  charged  nothing  against  the  Committee: 
he  did  not  doubt  they  had  done  their  duty  in  a  spirit  of  the  utmost  fairness,  and  had 
given  to  the  subject  their  best  attention.  But,  was  there  any  comparison  between  the 
wealth,  and  the  contributions  to  the  Treasury,  of  Caroline  and  of  Loudoun  ?  Was 
there  any  gentleman  who  could  pretend  to  deny,  that  that  of  Caroline  was  as  one 
while  that  of  Loudoun  was  as  three  ? 

Mr.  R.  said,  he  could  see  no  reason  for  the  preference  of  the  three  counties  which 
had  been  singled  out,  or  why  they  should  have  three  Delegates,  when  such  large, 
opulent,  and  highly  respectable  counties  as  those  he  had  mentioned,  were  confined  to 
one.  Compare  the  county  of  Chesterfield — taking  in  its  mineral  treasures — and 
would  not  its  average  value  be  equal  to  that  of  Loudoun  ?  He  did  not  know  any  such 
very  great  obligations  they  were  under  to  Loudoun ;  except  one — and  that  he  should 
carry  in  his  memory  to  the  grave — it  was  the  county  which  gave  the  only  vote  in 
Virginia  for  the  elder  John  Adams  against  Mr.  Jefferson.  It  had  endeavoured  to  ex- 
tend the  reign  of  terror  to  the  people  of  that  Commonwealth — and  it  did  hope  that  a 
little  leaven  would  have  leavened  the  whole  lump  :  but  Loudoun  had  been  mistaken. 

Mr.  R.  said,  however,  that  he  should  not  vote  for  Mr.  Cooke's  proposition  in  any 
hope  of  perpetuating  the  blessed  new  Constitution.  He  could  not  say  to  that  instru- 
ment in  the  words  of  Father  Paul,  esto  perpetual  But  his  wish  was  for  the  shortest 
possible  life  to  it.  He  did  not  vote  to  perpetuate  the  monstrous  injustice  done  by  the 
present  apportionment  of  political  power.  He  should  vote  for  it,  in  order  that  the 
injustice  of  to-day  might  be  rectified  hereafter,  by  the  House  of  Delegates,  among  the 
same  great  portions  of  the  State  as  were  at  present  designated.  He  believed  gentle- 
men might  discharge  all  fears  of  perpetuating  the  mischief  of  the  proposed  Consti- 
tution. That  was  his  only  consolation  :  no — it  was  not  his  consolation  :  he  had  no 
consolation  :  for  he  perceived  that  from  that  day  forth  there  was  to  be  nothing  safe — 
nothing  permanent  in  their  institutions. 

Mr.  Cooke  repeated  his  purpose  to  vote  for  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Summers,  and 
his  fear  that  the  attempt  of  that  gentleman  would  prove  abortive.  As  to  the  objec- 
tion of  the  gentleman  from  Brooke,  (Mr.  Campbell,)  it  was  not  surprising  that  that 
gentleman  should  be  opposed  to  his  proposition  if  he  held  such  opinions.  The  gen- 
tleman had  openly  avowed  his  desire,  that  the  Constitution,  which  had  been  agreed 
upon  by  this  body  as  a  desirable  compromise  between  the  great  and  opposing  interests, 
might  be  rendered  as  odious  as  possible.  It  was  very  natural,  that  with  this  motive 
confessed,  the  gentleman  should  be  hostile  to  a  plan  whose  whole  end  and  purpose 
was  to  remedy  injustice  and  to  allay  discontent. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  he  had  been  mistaken  in  supposing  the  amendment  of  the  gentle- 
man from  Kanawha  to  be  the  same  with  that  offered  formerly  by  the  gentleman  from 
Patrick,  (Mr.  Stuart.)  It  was  the  same,  or  nearly  so,  with  that  of  the  gentleman  from 
Richmond  county,  (Mr.  Neale.)  The  details  of  that  plan  had  been  examined  by  the 
gentleman  from  Fauquier,  (Mr.  Scott,)  and  its  great  inequality,  and  the  strange  and 
capricious  results  to  which  it  led  in  practice,  had  been  forcibly  exposed  by  that  gen- 
tleman. It  produced  great  injustice  as  between  the  great  districts  of  the  State,  and 
yet  greater  between  county  and  county.  Any  one  would  be  satisfied  of  this  who 
should  apply  the  plan  to  Albemarle  and  then  to  Orange. 

Mr.  Neale  expressed  his  astonishment  at  hearing  the  gentleman  from  Chesterfield 
assimilate  the  present  scheme  to  that  he  had  had  the  honour  to  offer.  JVo  two  things 
could  be  more  unlike.  This  was  merely  the  shadow  of  his.  They  had  three  essen- 
tial^points  of  difference.  The  plan  of  Mr.  Summers  proposed  a  re-apportionment 
every  ten  years,  his  every  twenty  years.  The  one  reckoned  all  the  freeholds ;  the 
other  all  the  freehold-voters  resident  in  the  county:  the  one  had  a  Senate  that  was 
to  be  re-apportioned  every  ten  years :  the  other  a  permanent  Senate  of  nineteen  East 
and  thirteen  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge.    Were  these  not  essential  difi'erences 

Mr.  Massie  observed,  that  so  much  had  been  said  both  here  and  elsewhere,  about 
the  change  of  opinion  and  change  of  course  of  the  Albemarle  Delegation,  that  he 
felt  it  incumbent  on  him  to  explain  the  vote  he  meant  to  give.  He  had  altered  no 
opinion,  he  had  changed  no  course  in  relation  to  this  matter.  In  his  address  to  his 
constituents  previous  to  the  election,  he  had  declared  he  would  vote  for  no  Constitution, 
which  in  his  judgment  might  expose  the  country  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge  to  the  risk 
of  oppressive  taxation.  He  had  expressed  sentiments  on  other  matters  of  reform,  but 
they  were  all  subject  to  the  controul  of  this  cardinal  pledge;  a  pledge,  not  asked  at 
his  hands,  but  insisted  on  by  him  as  a  guarantee  for  his  own  liberty  of  action.  He 
would  not  now  trouble  the  Convention  by  going  into  further  detail,  but  in  self-defence 
he  felt  himself  bound  to  say,  that  he  held  it  to  be  perfectly  consistent  for  him  to  vote 
against  the  resolution  of  the  gentleman  from  Kanawha,  and  to  support  that  of  his 
colleague  from  Albemarle. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  that  the  direct  allusion  which  had  been  made  to  his  county,  occa- 
sioned him  now  to  rise,  and  to  say,  that  he  had  not  had  the  remotest  reference  to  the  al- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  COiNVENTlON. 


833 


lotment  of  representation  to  Loudoun,  within  his  view — nor  could  he — for  that  allot- 
ment was  not  yet  agreed  upon.  What  he  objected  to,  in  the  plan  of  the  gentleman 
from  Frederick,  was  the  perpetuating  of  the  division  of  the  Stale  into  four  great  dis- 
tricts— its  shutting  out  the  hope  of  change,  till  1841,  and  its  allowing  a  farther  de- 
cennial apportionment.  The  people  would  not  consider  the  Constitution,  as  fixing 
on  only  a  temporary  apportionment.  If  the  Constitution  should  succeed  at  all,  it 
would  only  be  from  viewing  the  whole  together,  and  considering  that  though  the  al- 
lotment of  power  at  present  was  unjust,  yet  there  was  hope  for  the  future  :  but  this 
would  not  be  their  view,  if  provision  was  thus  to  be  made  for  applying  the  present 
allotment  for  centuries  to  come.  If  this  allotment  was  to  be  regarded  as  perpetual, 
he  called  gentlemen  to  look  at  it :  what  great  changes  must  have  occurred  in  the  state 
of  the  population  since  1820,  when  the  Census  was  taken  in  which  this  allotment 
proceeded.  The  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  would  destroy  that  hope, 
which  alone  would  induce  a  great  part  of  the  people  to  accept  the  Constitution.  As 
to  the  obligations  of  the  Commonwealth  to  Loudoun,  he  should  not  pretend  to  com- 
pare them  with  those  it  ow^ed  to  the  county  of  Charlotte.  Loudoun  needed  not  his 
defence  :  she  would  be  judged  by  her  own  merits.  He  had  not  had  Loudoun  in  his 
thoughts  when  he  stated  his  objections  to  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick: 
As  to  her  three  Delegates,  it  was  perfectly  in  the  power  of  the  House  to  take  one  of 
them  away  and  give  it  to  some  other  county,  if  they  should  judge  the  apportionment 
of  the  Committee  unjust.  He  had  endeavoured  to  shew  the  difference  iDetween  the 
technical  fact  that  the  Constitution  did  not  fix  this  inequality  within  the  districts,  and 
its  establishing  an  unequal  ratio  between  the  districts  themselves. 

Mr.  Stanard  protested  against  the  assumption  of  Mr.  Mercer,  that  Mr.  Gordon's 
compromise  was  based  on  the  white  population  of  1820.  He  renounced  any  such 
basis,  and  utterly  disclaimed  having  supported  such  principle.  He  commented  with 
severity  upon  the  argument  of  Mr.  Campbell,  who  objected  to  the  plan  of  Mr.  Cooke, 
because  it  took  away  the  aliment  from  discontent,  and  healed  the  evils  which  time 
might  disclose.  That  gentleman  wished  to  sow  the  seeds  of  discontent  so  thickly, 
that  they  might  soon  vegetate,  and  produce  a  new  Convention. 

To  prevent  these  discontents  would,  it  seemed,  rob  the  gentleman  and  his  friends 
of  a  formidable  ally  !  Was  this  a  fit  principle  for  the  Convention  to  act  upon  ?  Was 
this  a  fit  argument  for  the  Convention  to  hear  ?  An  open  avowed  war  was  to  be  waged 
against  the  institutions  of  the  State.  Mr.  S.  then  referred  to  the  first  difficulties  of 
the  Convention,  the  compromise  which  had  terminated  them,  and  the  salutary  effects 
likely  to  flow  from  the  adoption  of  Mr.  Cooke's  proposition. 

Mr.  Randolph  said,  that  the  Convention,  if  it  had  done  him  the  honor  to  pav  atten- 
tion to  what  he  had  said  when  last  up,  would  do  him  the  justice  to  recollect,  that  he 
had  entered  into  no  comparison  of  Loudoun  with  Charlotte.  The  gentleman  from 
Loudoun  had  said,  that  he  should  not  do  so — in  v.'hich  determination,  he  admired  the 
gentleman's  discretion  full  as  much  as  he  did  his  valor.  For  if  he  had  chosen,  instead 
of  looking  at  the  counties  of  Caroline — (he  remembered  the  time  when  Caroline  paid 
a  larger  contribution  to  the  Treasury,  and  owned  more  slaves  than  any  county  in  the 
Commonwealth) — Spottsylvania  and  Southampton,  he  might  with  propriety  have  said, 
that  the  grossest  injustice  had  been  done  to  Charlotte,  who,  with  more  than  half  the 
population  of  Loudoun,  and  much  more  than  half  the  amount  of  taxes,  with  an 
amount  of  productive  labour  in  still  greater  proportion,  and  with  exports,  he  would 
venture  to  say,  of  equivalent  value — received  an  allotment  of  one  Representative, 
while  Loudoun  received  three.  But,  he  had  said  nothing  about  Charlotte.  He  was 
not  in  the  habit  of  always  talking  of  himself  and  his  own  concerns — he  had  said 
nothing  about  his  wish  to  get  a  tenantry  for  his  great  estates  in  Charlotte,  and  his 
anxiety  to  induce  them  to  come  out  of  Maryland  and  Pennsylvania  for  that  purpose, 
by  getting  the  Right  of  Suffrage  extended.  He  might  have  compared  Pittsylvania 
and  Halifax,  and  shewn  that  they  were  as  well  entitled  to  three  Delegates  as  Lou- 
doun. With  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania,  (Mr.  Stanard.)  he  disclaimed  and 
denied  the  apportionment  of  the  Committee  to  have  been  founded  on  the  white  po- 
pulation of  1820,  or  on  white  popxilation  in  any  shape.  Before  he  sat  down  he  would 
say  farther,  that  the  county  of  Fauquier  was  as  much  entitled  to  have  three  Repre- 
sentatives as  the  county  of  Loudoun.  Pie  had  risen  before  to  state  the  reason  why 
he  should  vote  for  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Cooke.) 
It  was  because  it  would  enable  the  Legislature  at  short  periods  to  remedy  this  gross 
and  monstrous  and  crying  injustice — yes — crj'ing  injustice — that  the  county  of  Caro- 
line should  have  but  one  Representative.  Let  gentlemen  look  at  the  wealth  and  cha- 
racter of  that  county — let  them  measure  her  dimensions — one  of  the  great  and  opu- 
lent counties  of  Virginia — that  Caroline,  and  Southampton,  and  Chesterfield,  and 
Pittsylvania,  and  all  that  range  of  counties  through  which  the  great  Southern  and 
Western  road  passed — should  have  but  one  Delegate  each,  while  three  counties  in  the 
Western  part  of  the  State  should  have  three  each — it  was  most  unjust.  He  saw,  too, 
that  in  all  the  changes  made  by  the  Committee  in  their  second  apportionment,  the 

105 


834 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION, 


whole  weight  of  increase  was  to  be  thrown  into  the  scale  of  the  North- Western  corner 
of  the  State.    This  was  aggravating  the  injustice. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  he  rose  rather  to  shew  the  justice  of  his  former  argumentj  than  to 
notice  the  personalities  of  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte.  The  argument  of  the  gen- 
tleman from  Spottsylvania  was,  that  the  alliance  of  the  enemies  to  the  present  appor- 
tionment, would  be  prevented  by  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick, 
by  re-apportioning  the  representation  within  one  of  the  great  divisions  of  the  State, 
so  as  to  remedy  inequality.  Mr.  M.  denied  this  consequence — for,  by  that  plan,  the 
discontent  that  might  have  been  transferred  to  one  county,  or  to  a  few  counties,  would 
thus  be  spread  throughout  the  division  of  the  State  to  which  those  counties  belonged : 
all  which  must  be  affected  by  a  re-apportionment.  It  was  the  very  essence  of  the 
system,  to  create  an  esprit  dii  corns  in  each  of  those  divisions.  There  was  no  need  of 
this.  It  would  be  easy  to  adopt  the  present  apportionment  in  substance,  without  thus 
classing  the  counties  of  the  State.  Those  divisions  ought  to  be  obliterated — they  be- 
longed to  the  land-law  of  1807 — and  when  the  ends  of  that  law  ceased,  the  division 
ought  to  have  ceased  also  ;  but,  the  mode  of  proceeding  in  the  Convention  was  calcu- 
lated to  keep  them  up,  and  to  render  tliem  perpetual.  The  plan  of  the  gentleman 
from  Frederick,  instead  of  allaying  discontent,  went  to  diffuse  discontent — to  make 
the  discontent  of  one  county  the  discontent  of  the  Valley.  He  trusted  he  had  thus 
vindicated  his  argument  as  to  the  attack  of  the  gentleman  from  Spottsylvania. 

The  gentleman  from  Charlotte  had  forgotten  a  part  of  his  own  remarks.  He  should 
be  the  last  man  in  that  House  wantonly  to  injure  the  feelings  of  any  gentleman,  and 
he  believed  he  had  never  done  so.  The  gentleman  had  not  been  content  with  saying 
tliat  Loudoun  was  not  entitled  to  three  Delegates — that  he  had  a  perfect  right  to  say 
if  he  thought  so — and  on  the  gentleman's  principles,  he  presumed  he  very  honestly 
thought  so.  But,  he  had  no  right  to  refer  to  the  political  history  of  Loudoun.  Her 
rights  to  representation  did  not  depend  on  that  history.  The  gentleman  had  said  he 
admired  his  discretion  as  much  as  his  valor.  He  was  sorry  he  could  not  admire,  in 
that  gentleman,  either. 

[Mr.  R.    I  should  be  sorry,  ver}^  sorry,  if  you  did  admire  me.] 

Mr.  George  said,  that  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  had  said  he  wilfully  shut  his 
eyes  against  the  light. 

The  Chair  interposed.    The  gentlemnn  had  not  used  such  an  expression. 

Mr.  Gordon.  I  said  no  such  thing.  I  said  I  did  not  consider  it  a  virtue,  or  a  proof 
of  wisdom,  to  refuse  to  listen  to  reason,  or  admit  light  for  argument. 

Mr.  George  replied,  that  if  the  gentleman  meant  that  remark  to  apply  to  him,  he 
was  mistaken.  He  had  been  disposed  to  conciliate  :  but  when  he  saw  gentlemen  pro- 
fessing to  do  only  what  was  just,  opposing  ev^ry  plan  that  would  make  the  Consti- 
tution suitable  to  the  wishes  of  the  West,  it  was  a  matter  of  astonishment  to  him.  He 
had  hoped  the  plan  of  his  friend  from  Kanawha  would  have  made  the  unjust  appor- 
tionment of  the  gentleman's  compromise  in  some  degree  less  unpalatable  to  the  peo- 
ple of  his  part  of  the  State  ;  but  it  seemed  that  no  plan  whatever  for  future  appor- 
tionment, could  suit  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle.  Nothing  would  do  but  his  own 
unjust  and  unequal  scheme  of  compromise. 

Mr.  Gordon  replied.  He  regretted  that  the  gentleman  from  Tazewell  should  find 
it  necessary,  in  order  to  vindicate  his  own  course,  to  charge  a  dereliction  of  duty  upon 
others.  The  duties  of  the  Convention  had  been  arduous  enough — none  could  expect . 
to  carry  just  such  a  Constitution  as  pleased  himself.  If  he  had  the  writing  of  one 
for  himself,  he  might  possibly  have  produced  something  that  would  have  suited  the 
gentleman  better:  but  he  found  the  Delegates  of  all  Virginia  assembled,  and  he 
thought  the  spirit  of  conciliation  becoming  and  commendable.  On  the  point  of  con- 
sistency, he  might  challenge  gentlemen  who  accused  him.  He  had  advanced  but  one 
proposition — and  if  he  had  manifested  some  degree  of  parental  love  toward  it,  the  fact 
was  not  so  very  unusual.  Yet  some  gentlemen,  who  had  been  great  sticklers  for  the 
zchiie  basis  had  been  willing  to  consent  to  a  basis,  including  three-fifths  of  the  black 
population.  They  had  assented  to,  and  had  themselves  moved  for,  a  mongrel  Senate ; 
and  the  unsullied  beauty  of  the  white  basis  had  been  given  up  by  them,  when  he 
alone  had  stood  out  in  its  favour.  He  meant  no  imputation  on  their  conduct — he 
knew  that  they  had  done  it  in  the  spirit  of  compromise.  But  he  should  be  obliged  to 
the  gentleman  from  Tazewell,  if  he  could  propose  some  scheme  that  would  unite  the 
votes  of  gentlemen  in  its  favour. 

Mr.  Summers  briefly  explained  his  plan  in  reply  to  Mr.  Neale — shewing  that  it  did 
not  apply  to  the  freeholds  of  non-residents,  but  only  of  such  as  resided  within  the 
county  where  the  land  la}^  He  professed  his  desire  to  see  the  Constitution  adopted; 
and  it  was  with  a  view  to  pi*oduce  that  effect,  he  had  offered  his  plan.  He  went  into 
some  statistical  details,  to  sliew  that  his  scheme  was  a  just  medium — a  half-way  house 
between  the  Federal  numbers  and  the  white  basis. 

He  could  not  vote  for  Mr  Cooke's  plan,  because  he  believed  that  no  Constitution, 
without  a  plnn  for  future  apportionm-ent,  could  ever  be  adopted  by  the  people > 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


S35 


The  question  was  now  taken  on  Mr.  Summers'  amendment  to  the  amendment  of 
Mr.  Cooke,  and  decided  b}'  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Anderson.  CoiTman,  "Williamson.  Baldwin.  .■rC'y.  Moore,  Beirne, 
Smilh.  Miller.  Baxter,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  O^jornc.  Co'  lie.  Powell.  Grig-g-s.  ]Ma- 
son  of  Frederick,  Xaylor,  Donaldson,  Bovd,  Pendleton,  Ge'-rge.  ^r^Iiil:]-.  Camp- 
bell of  Wasliington.  Byars,  Clovd.  Chapman,  IMathews,  0_lc-^y.  Bur.'';;.  Lriidle}'-, 
Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  31orgau,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  V.'ilson,  Sajucicis.  £tuart 
and  Upshur — 10. 

Aoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield. Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode.  Marshall  of  Richmoud,  Tyler, 
Nicholas,  Clopton,  Harrison,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant.  Claiborne,  Urquhart, 
Randolph;  Lei2"h  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  ]NIercer, 
Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green, 
INIarshull  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grio-sby.  Campbell  of  Bedford, 
Claytor.  Branch,  Townes,  Cabell,  Martin,  Pleasants.  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie, 
Bates.  ZSeale,  Rose,  Coalter.  Joynt'S,  Bayly  and  Perrin — 55, 

So  the  amendment  to  the  amendn:ient  vras  rejected. 

Mr.  Powell  now  moved  the  following  amendment  to  tliat  of  Air,  Cooke  : 
III  the  year  IS'42.  and  every  ten  years  thereafter,  the  General  Assembly  shall  have 
the  povrer  to  apportion  the  representation  of  both  branches  among  the  several  coun- 
ties, cities  and  boroughs  of  the  Commonwealth,  according  to  some  just  and  equitable 
ratio." 

The  question  was  taken  by  ayes  and  noes,  without  debate,  and  decided  as  follows: 

Ayes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffman.  Harrison,  ^vN'miamson.  2u'Ccy,  .iloore.  Beirne, 
Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell.  ^Mason  of  Frederick, 
Naylor,  Donaldson,  B:)yd.  George.  rvFMillan.  Campbell  of  AVafhington,  Byars,  Cloyd, 
Chapman,  ^-lathews.  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laicley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan, 
Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Claytor,  Saunders  and  Cabell — 35. 

JShes — ^Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield.  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles.  Brodnax.  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode.  ^-larshall  of  Richmond.  Tyler, 
Nicholas.  Clopton,  Baldwin.  Alason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant.  Claiborne.  Urquhart, 
Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  "^'enable,  ^vladison.  Stanard.  Holladay.  Henderson, 
Griggs,  Pendleton,  P».oane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  3Iorris.  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper, 
Scott,  Green.  Marshall  of  Fauquier.  Tazewell.  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Campbell  of 
Bedford.  Branch,  Towncj,  Martin,  Stuart,  Pleasants.  Gordon.  Tiiompson,  2uassie, 
Bates,  Neale,  Pvose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upsliur  and  Perrin — 57. 

Mr.  Stuart  said,  he  could  not  vote  for  ii\Ir.  Cooke's  auiendi.ient,  unless  some  basis 
was  specified  for  the  apportionment.  He  believed  the  Committee  had  gone  on  the 
principle  of  Federal  numbers.  Now,  he  wished  to  know  if  that  was  to  be  brought 
into  the  great  districts  of  the  State  among  the  counties  .'  The  arguments  that  applied 
as  between  district  and  district,  would  not  apply  as  between  county  and  county. 
"Where  their  interests  were  the  same,  the  white  population  was  the  just  basis.  He 
therefore  moved  to  amend  ]Mr.  Cooke's  amendment,  by  inserting  after  the  word  re- 
apportion," these  words,    on  the  basis  of  white  population." 

The  question  vras  taken  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coftman.  Harrison.  "Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coj,  Moore, 
Beirne.  Smith,  i^.Iiller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell, 
Griggs.  3Iascn  nf  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd.  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan, 
Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  iMathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan, 
Laidley,  Sunmiers,  See,  Doddridge,  iMorgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Vvilson,  Campbell 
of  Bedford,  Clavtor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Stuart,  Gordon,  and  Thompson — 46. 

.\oes — iMessrs,  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield. Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode.  Marshall  o_f  Richmond,  Tyler, 
Nicholas.  Clopton,  INlason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph, 
Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of 
Caroline,  iMorris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  iiNIarshall  of  Fauquier, 
Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Massie, 
Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes.  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 49. 

So  the  amendment  was  rejected. 

Mr.  Summers  said,  that  he  despaired  of  any  adjustment  of  the  question  of  future  ap- 
portionment, on  principles  which  would  give  to  the  West  the  benefit  of  its  future  in- 
crease in  numbers,  wealth  or  contribution.  That  the  proposed  Constitution  contained 
many  valuable  provisions,  which  he  vras  satisfied  the  people  of  that  country  would 
gladiy  accept,  if  they  could  be  separated  from  the  obnoxious  arrangement  as  to  the  re- 
presentation. The  provisions  as  to  the  Executive  and  Judicial  Departments  met  his 
approbation.  The  extension  of  the  Suifrage  he  regarded  as  a  valuable  improvement, 
and  he  should  regret  the  rejection  of  what  he  esteemed  important  alleviations,  by  their 
connection  with  what  he  was  satisfied  the  W^estern  people  ought  never  to  accept.  In 
utter  hopelessness  of  any  rule  of  future  apportionment,  he  had  become  convinced  that 


836 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


next  to  some  satisfactory  rule  upon  tliat  subject,  it  would  be  best  to  leave  representa- 
tion in  principle,  where  the  Convention  had  found  it ;  best  to  secure  the  beneficial  provi- 
sions which  had  been  agreed  upon,  and  leave  to  the  future  the  adjustment  of  those 
questions  upon  which  no  satisfactory  decision  could  now  be  had. 

The  proposition  which  he  offered  would  give  an  Eastern  majority  of  twenty-nine, 
in  a  House  of  Delegates  of  one  hundred  and  eleven  ;  but  it  would  leave  the  question 
of  representation  open  to  future  examination,  without  prejudice  ;  all  parties  would  be 
remitted  to  the  ground  which  they  respectively  occupied  before  the  assembling  of  this 
body,  and  it  would  place  them  in  a  situation  to  accept  the  amendments  without  refer- 
ence to  the  rights  which  would  be  postponed.  To  the  Eastern  country  the  proposi- 
tion particularly  addressed  itself,  and  he  submitted  it  to  gentlemen  from  that  quarter 
of  the  State  to  decide,  whether  the  interests  of  all  would  not  be  more  fully  consulted 
by  forming  a  Constitution  upon  the  old  principle  of  representation,  than  by  pertina- 
ciously adhering  to  one  that  is  extremely  inconvenient  to  them,  and  peculiarly  ob- 
noxious to  their  Western  fellow-citizens.  As  to  the  Senate,  he  said  he  offered  no  new 
rule — that  body  had  been  apportioned  in  1817,  according  to  white  population,  and  he 
proposed  the  application  of  the  same  principle  for  the  future.  A  restraining  clause  as 
to  new  counties  was  added  to  quiet  Eastern  fears  against  the  multiplication  of  coun- 
ties in  the  West — a  restraint  perhaps  unnecessary  with  reference  to  a  body  composed 
as  the  House  of  Delegates  would  be. 

Mr.  S.  then  submitted  a  substitute  for  Mr.  Cooke's  proposition,  going  to  establish 
an  equal  county  representation. 

Mr.  Stuart  moved  that  it  be  laid  on  the  table  and  printed :  but  the  motion  was  ne- 
gatived. 

Mr.  Moore  moved  that  both  the  amendments  of  Mr.  Cooke  and  Mr.  Summers,  be 
indefinitely  postponed. 

On  this  motion  Mr.  Summers  demanded  the  ayes  and  noes,  but  after  some  conver- 
sation, he  agreed  to  withdraw  his  amendment  for  the  present,  and  let  the  question  be 
taken  on  that  of  Mr.  Cooke. 

Mr.  Moore  thereupon  withdrew  his  motion  for  indefinite  postponement. 

Mr.  Naylor  briefly  expressed  his  reasons  for  voting  against  the  motion  of  Mr.  Cooke  : 
it  was  a  palliative,  not  a  radical  cure.  It  prevented  the  hope  of  any  future  apportion- 
ment different  from  the  present. 

The  question  was  now  taken  on  Mr.  Cooke's  amendment,  by  ayes  and  noes  as  fol- 
lows : 

Jlyes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Bi'odnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond,  Tyler, 
Nicholas,  Clopton,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph, 
Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Cooke,  Griggs,  Pen- 
dleton, Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Laidley,  Barbour  of  Culpeper, 
Scott,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Campbell 
of  Bedford,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates, 
Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 56. 

Noes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy,  Moore, 
Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Powell,  Ma- 
son of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Wash- 
ington, Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Summers,  See,  Dod- 
dridge, Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell  and  Stu- 
art—39. 

So  Mr.  Cooke's  amendment  was  adopted. 

Mr.  Summers  now  moved  to  strike  out  the  third  and  fourth  clauses  of  Mr.  Cooke's 
amendment,  and  insert  the  following: 

"  One  of  which  shall  be  called  the  House  of  Delegates,  and  shall  consist  of  one  De- 
legate to  be  chosen  annually,  for  and  by  each  of  the  counties  of  the  Commonwealth ; 
one  Delegate  to  be  chosen  for  and  by  the  city  of  Richmond  ;  one  Delegate  to  be  chosen 
for  and  by  the  borough  of  Norfolk,  and  one  Delegate  to  be  chosen  for  and  by  each  of 
the  towns  of  Petersburg,  Lynchburg,  Winchester  and  Wheeling,  That  whenever 
the  General  Assembly  shall  create  a  new  county,  such  county  shall  elect  and  choose 
one  Delegate ;  but  no  new  county  shall  be  hereafter  created  of  less  territorial  extent 
than  five  hundred  square  miles,  or  of  less  population  than  fifteen  hundred  persons. 

The  other  House  of  the  General  Assembly  shall  be  called  the  Senate,  and  shall 
consist  of  thirty-two  members  ;  of  whom  fourteen  shall  be  chosen  for  and  by  the  coun- 
ties lying  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge  of  mountains,  and  eighteen  for  and  by  the  coun- 
ties, cities,  towns  and  boroughs  lying  East  thereof ;  and  for  the  election  of  whom,  the 
counties,  cities,  towns  and  boroughs,  shall  be  divided  into  thirty-two  districts,  as  here- 
inafter provided.  Each  county  of  the  respective  districts,  at  the  time  of  the  first  elec- 
tion of  its  Delegate  under  this  Constitution,  shall  vote  for  one  Senator,  and  the  she- 
riffs or  other  officer  holding  the  election,  for  each  county,  city,  town  or  borough,  within 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION, 


837 


ten  days  at  farthest,  after  the  last  county,  city,  town,  or  borough  election  in  the  dis- 
trict, shall  meet  at  some  convenient  place,  and  from  the  polls  so  taken,  in  their  re- 
spective counties,  cities,  towns  and  boroughs,  return  as  Senator,  the  person  who  shall 
have  the  greatest  number  of  votes  in  the  whole  district.  To  keep  up  this  Assembly 
by  rotation,  the  districts  shall  be  divided  into  four  classes,  and  numbered  by  lot — at 
the  end  of  one  year  after  the  first  election,  the  eight  members  elected  by  the  first  di- 
vision shall  be  displaced,  and  the  vacancies  thereby  occasioned,  supplied  from  such 
class  or  division,  by  new  election,  in  manner  aforesaid.  This  rotation  shall  be  applied 
to  each  division,  according  to  its  number,  and  continue  in  due  order  annually.  And 
for  the  election  of  Senators,  the  counties  of 

The  General  Assembly  shall,  whenever  it  may  become  necessary,  re-apportion  the 
Senators,  by  changing  the  number  to  be  elected  East  and  West  of  the  Blue  Ridcre  of 
mountains,  but  no  such  re-apportionment  shall  take  effect,  but  as  succeeding  elections 
shall  take  place,  and  in  all  such  re-apportionments,  the  former  classification  shall  be 
preserved,  or  a  new  classification  made,  as  the  Legislature  shall  find  most  conve- 
nient." 

By  desire  of  Mr.  Summers,  the  question  was  first  put  on  striking  out  only  the  third 
clause  of  Mr.  Cooke's,  and  inserting  in  lieu  thereof  so  much  of  the  above  amendment 
as  relates  to  the  House  of  Delegates. 

Mr.  Morris  demanded  that  the  question  be  divided,  and  taken  fi^rst  on  striking  out. 
It  was  so  divided,  and  put  accordingly,  first  on  striking  out. 

Mr.  Nicholas  explained,  at  considerable  length,  his  reasons  for  opposing  the  amend- 
ment of  Mr.  Summers.  It  seemed  to  address  itself  to  the  smaller  counties  and  held 
out  a  boon  to  each.  He  contended  that  it  was  unjust  to  give  Warwick  and  Loudoun 
an  equal  representation.  This  was  the  very  inequality  the  Convention  was  called  to 
remedy.  But  the  scheme  looked  to  the  increase  of  voters  by  the  extension  of  the 
Right  of  Suffrage  ;  and  the  effect  would  be  to  agitate  the  State  to  a  far  greater  degree 
than  ever,  and  the  result  w^as  to  be  another  Convention.  The  scheme  was  easily  seen 
through,  but  he  could  never  consent  to  it — he  would  give  no  pledge  to  vote  for  the 
Constitution :  but  if  he  did,  it  would  be  as  a  compromise;  but  this  plan  took  away  all 
the  security  of  Mr.  Gordon's,  and  gave  nothing  in  exchange. 

Mr.  Tyler  said,  he  had  risen  for  the  purpose  of  recommending  the  ancient  and  re- 
spectable borough  of  Williamsburg  to  the  protection  of  the  gentleman  from  Kanawha. 
(Here  Mr.  Summers  bowed  respectfully.)  If  the  gentleman  offer  a  boon  to  his  dis- 
trict, he  ought  to  extend  that  boon  to  the  whole  of  his  constituents.  If  any  were  to 
go  by  the  board,  many  would  have  to  go  by  the  board,  and  the}'  would  have  at  last 
the  consolation  of  much  good  company.  Mr.  Tyler  said,  he  believed,  if  the  gentle- 
man would  remove  one  feature  from  his  amendment,  about  the  quantity  of  land  in  a 
county  (a  provision  which  seemed  intended  for  the  West  alone,)  and  would  agree  to 
include  the  ancient  and  respectable  borough  of  Williamsburg  in  his  plan,  he  did  not 
think  he  should  be  such  an  obdurate  heathen  as  to  refuse  the  gentleman's  boon.  It  had 
been  forcibly  remarked  by  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte  some  days  ago  that  he  doubted 
if  the  Convention  could  do  better  by  way  of  amending  the  Constitution,  than  to  re- 
duce the  House  of  Delegates  one-half,  and  after  a  few  small  alterations  respecting  the 
Judiciary,  to  turn  their  backs  upon  that  Hall.  And  if  the  gentleman  from  Kanawha 
would  extend  his  kindness  to  Williamsburg,  in  all  human  probability  he  might,  after 
a  little  time  allowed  him  for  reflection,  assent  to  accept  that  power  which  they  had 
exercised,  (he  trusted  without  injury)  for  more  than  fifty  years.  They  were  at  present 
fully  contented — the}-  asked  for  no  change  on  earth — least  of  all  for  such  an  one  as 
the  honorable  gentleman  from  Kanawha  had  in  an  earlier  stage  of  the  proceedings 
designed  for  them. 

Mr.  Summers  observed,  in  reply,  that  he  had  all  the  inducements  that  could  well 
operate  on  his  mind,  to  gratify  the  wishes  of  his  honorable  friend  from  Williamsburg, 
or  near  it.  He  had  a  favourite  measure  to  carry,  and  a  ti-ifle  ought  not  to  separate 
him  from  a  gentleman  so  highly  respectable,  and  whose  vote  might  exert  a  powerful 
influence  over  others.  But  as  that  gentleman  was  yet  in  doubt,  and  had  not  been 
able  to  make  up  his  mind  definitively,  he  hoped  to  be  pardoned  for  pausing  until  he 
received  fuller  assurance  of  the  course  which  he  might  ultimately  take.  Mr.  S.  could 
not  consent  to  restore  to  the  ancient  Capital  of  the  Commonwealth  its  pristine  honors, 
while  its  Representative  remained  undecided  as  to  the  acceptance.  His  friend  from 
Richmond,  (Mr.  Nicholas.)  had  perceived  a  lurking  design  to  carry  a  scheme  for  fu- 
ture representation  by  calling  Convention  after  Convention.  That  gentleman  he 
knew  had  very  keen  vision,  and  he  would  not  undertake  to  compete  with  him  in  es- 
timating the  chances  of  bringing  about  any  particular  political  measure  ;  his  optics 
were  not  fitted  for  such  scrutinies.  He  believed,  for  his  part,  that  the  people  of  Vir- 
ginia had  been  pretty  well  dosed  with  Conventions  for  the  present,  and  that  it  would 
be  some  time  before  they  would  call  another;  neither  the  wisdom  of  the  State,"  or 
its  practical  good  sense,  he  thought,  would  be  shortly  called  upon  for  such  a  purpose ; 


838 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


yet  time,  the  great  innovator,  he  hoped  would  ultimately  bring  justice  and  peace  to 
every  portion  of  the  State. 

Mr.  S.  said,  that  if  his  proposition  was  regarded  as  a  boon  offered  to  any  part  of  the 
State,  he  begged  gentlemen  to  carry  with  them  the  recollection,  that  it  was  not  pro- 
posed by  him  as  matter  of  choice,  but  as  the  dictate  of  necessity,  that  to  secure  the  ra- 
tification of  such  parts  as  were  valuable,  he  was  induced  to  relinquish  what  was  unat- 
tainable in  the  proposed  plan  of  a  Constitution. 

As  to  the  danger  which  the  gentleman  from  Richmond  thinks  he  percieves  in  the 
proposition  as  to  new  counties,  Mr.  S.  observed,  that  it  could  but  excite  his  surprise. 
Danger  to  the  East  by  this  limitation  of  the  power  of  creating  new  counties,  was  to 
his  mind  inexplicable,  when  it  stood  in  connection  with  an  Eastern  majority  of  twen- 
ty-nine, in  a  House  of  Delegates  of  one  hundred  and  eleven  members,  with  the  ex- 
clusive power  of  originating  laws  !  But  he  remarked,  that  he  would  leave  this  ques- 
tion of  Eastern  interests  to  be  settled  by  the  gentleman  from  Richmond  and  his  con- 
stituents. 

Mr.  Cooke  said,  he  did  not  pretend  to  fathom,  or  to  judge,  the  motives  of  the  gen- 
tleman from  Kanawha,  but  the  effect  of  his  amendment  would  be  to  frustrate  the  la- 
bors of  three  months,  by  ensuring  the  rejection  of  the  Constitution,  Nothing  could 
more  certainly  ensure  the  unanimous  and  indignant  rejection  of  the  Constitution  by 
the  whole  Western  country  (unless  where  the  gentleman's  personal  influence  might 
extend.)  His  plan  gave  a  greater  majority  to  the  East  by  fifty  per  cent,  than  that  to 
which  he  objected.    Yet  this  was  a  Western  plan,  brought  forward  by  a  Western  man  ! 

Mr.  Summers  remarked,  that  he  was  not  a  prophet  or  the  son  of  a  prophet,  but  if 
any  weight  was  to  be  attached  to  his  opinions,  he  could  assure  the  gentleman  from 
Frederick,  (Mr.  Cooke,)  that  the  proposition  just  submitted  would  secure  a  larger  vote 
than  the  one  supported  by  him  throughout  the  entire  country  from  the  Blue  Ridge  to 
the  Ohio  river,  and  would  tend  to  the  adoption  of  the  Constitution  in  that  part  of  the 
State  :  That  if  the  extreme  West  was  capable  of  yielding  to  interested  considerationsj 
equal  county  representation  would  be  a  favorite  plan,  as  that  mode  of  apportionment 
gave  a  larger  representation  to  that  district,  than  the  one  which  received  from  that 
gentleman  such  zealous  support.  Mr.  S.  disclaimed  any  design  to  frustrate  the  la- 
bors of  the  Convention.  He  most  sincerely  desired  to  give  such  form  to  the  proposed 
Constitution  as  would  secure  a  majority  in  its  favor  here,  and  of  the  people  ;  and  not- 
withstanding the  gentleman's  apprehension  of  an  indignant  rejection  if  the  proposed 
amendment  should  succeed,  Mr.  S.  took  occasion  to  assure  him,  that  without  rely- 
ing on  personal  influence,  (of  which  he  had  none  to  boast.)  he  was  entirely  willing  to 
confide  the  merits  of  the  respective  propositions  to  the  good  sense  and  discrimination 
of  the  Western  people,  with  a  full  conviction  that  they  would  accurately  decide  on 
the  conduct  and  motives  of  all  those  to  whom  they  had  confided  their  interests  here. 

Mr.  S.  observed,  that  before  he  closed,  he  would  avail  hiwiself  of  the  occasion  to  re- 
mark, that  whatever  of  responsibility  might  be  attached  to  the  proposed  amendments, 
he  claimed  it  entirely  as  his  own;  he  had  consulted  no  one,  he  had  not  submitted  it 
to  the  inspection  of  a  single  member  before  offering  it  to  the  House,  and  that  all  he 
asked  in  its  favor  was  a  calm  and  dispassionate  examination,  and  the  votes  of  such  as 
approved  its  principles. 

Mr.  Mercer,  after  disclaiming  any  belief  that  the  gentleman  would  offer  a  proposi- 
tion which  he  thought  injurious  to  the  West,  declared  himself  unable  to  vote  for  it. 
He  would  vote  for  striking  out,  but  not  for  inserting. 

Mr.  Henderson  said,  he  rose  to  congratulate  the  House  on  the  restoration  of  the 
long-lost  harmony  between  the  county  of  Kanawha  and  the  ancient  county  of  Charles 
City,  [from  which  Mr.  Tyler  comes.] 

The  question  was  now  taken  on  striking  out  the  third  section  of  Mr.  Cooke's  amend- 
ment, and  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy,  Beirne, 
Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Osborne,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Freder- 
ick, Naylor,  Donaldson,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington, 
Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Dod- 
dridge, Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Saunders  and  Stuart — 37. 

Noes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond,  Ty- 
ler, Nicholas,  Clopton,  Moore,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart, 
Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Hender- 
son, Cooke,  Boyd,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpe- 
per,  Scott,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Camp- 
bell of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Branch,  Townes,  Cabell,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thomp- 
son, Massie,  Bates,  Neale,Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin— 58, 

So  the  motion  was  negatived. 

Mr.  Summers  then  withdrew  the  residue  of  his  amendment. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


839 


[The  rest  of  the  day,  till  near  five  o'clock,  was  occupied  in  discussing  the  appor- 
tionment of  representation  among  the  counties  in  the  southern  part  of  the  State.] 

The  debate,  though  very  animated,  was  wholly  local  in  its  character,  and  for  more 
reasons  than  one,  we  abstain  from  giving  any  report  of  it.  Only  two  votes  were  taken  ; 
one  for  attachincr  the  county  of  Pocahontas  to  the  Botetourt  Senatorial  District :  and 
the  other  for  taking  a  Delegate  from  the  county  of  Brunswick,  and  giving  it  to  the 
county  of  Franklin. 

[As  soon  as  the  result  of  the  vote  was  announced  for  transferring  the  double  dele- 
gation from  BrunsiDick  to  Franklin^  Mr.  Brodnax  rose  to  move,  that  one  Delegate 
should  be  taken  from  Loudoun,  (she  being  allowed  three,)  and  given  to  Brunswick; 
both  these  counties  being  in  the  same  section.  Mr.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield  warmly  sup- 
ported this  proposition ;  but  the  Convention  adjourned  before  taking  the  questioa 
on  it.] 

The  House  adjourned  at  5  o'clock. 


SATURDAY,  January  9,  1830. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr, 
Smith  of  the  Methodist  Church. 

The  House  was  again  engaged  in  the  consideration  of  the  general  subject  of  the 
apportionment  of  representation  among  the  several  counties  and  Senatorial  districts 
of  the  State.  The  same  reasons  which  induced  us  to  pass  over  the  debate  which  oc- 
curred on  this  subject  on  Friday,  apply  to  the  debate  of  to-day,  and  will  prevent  tts 
from  entering  fully  into  its  minutis.  It  partook,  as  all  debates  of  this  kind  usually 
do,  of  much  warmth — great  interest  in  the  parties  immediately  concerned,  and  some 
approaches  to  personality ;  which  latter,  however,  were  promptly  arrested  and  repressed 
by  the  Chair. 

But  the  interest  of  such  scenes  is  confined  to  those  whose  local  interest  happens  ta 
be  upon  the  carpet:  much  that  is  said  relates  to  dry  statistical  details;  a  comparison 
of  the  population,  white  and  coloured,  of  the  several  counties;  their  extent  of  terri- 
tory; their  relative  contributions  to  the  Treasury;  their  local  connexions  with  the 
counties  adjacent ;  or  their  geographical  position  in  reference  to  the  whole  State  ;  the 
change  that  will  be  occasioned  by  attaching  them  to  this  or  to  that  Senatorial  district; 
the  justice  of  the  apportionment  proposed  for  them  by  the  Committee  ;  all  questions 
in  which  the  general  reader  feels  little  or  no  concern,  and  readers  at  a  distance  none 
at  all.  Even  the  Convention  itself  became  wearied  and  disgusted  with  the  contest; 
and  it  was  with  the  utmost  exertion  that  the  Chair  was  able  to  confine  their  attention 
to  the  persons  addressing  it.  Under  these  circumstances,  our  readers  will  thank, 
rather  than  censure  us,  from  sparing  them  the  copious  detail. 

Mr.  Neale  brought  forward  the  following  proposition  :  The  first  proposition  made, 
partaking  more  of  a  general  character,  entitles  the  debate  on  it  to  a  more  expanded 
report : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  counties  of  Richmond,  Lancaster,  Middlesex,  Matthews, 
Charles  City  and  New  Kent,  be  assigned  one  Delegate  each,  and  no  more. 

"  Resolved,  That  there  shall  be  three  more  Delegates  assigned  to  the  district  next 
above  the  head  of  tide-water,  and  distributed  in  such  manner  as  a  majority  of  the  De- 
legates from  that  district  in  Convention  shall  report  to  this  House. 

There  shall  be  two  more  Delegates  assigned  to  the  Valley  district  to  be  disposed 
of  in  the  manner  last  aforesaid ;  and 

"  There  shall  be  two  more  Delegates  assigned  to  the  trans-Alleghany  district,  to  be 
disposed  of  in  the  manner  directed  by  the  second  resolution." 

Mr.  Neale  in  support  of  his  proposition,  addressed  the  Convention  as  follows : 

Mr.  President :  The  gentleman  from  Southampton  has  withdrawn  the  amendment 
proposed  by  the  member  from  Dinwiddle  :  I  am  glad  of  it ;  for  though  Franklin 
county  did,  on  yesterday,  capture^  a  Delegate  belonging  to  Brunswick,  I  should  be 
sorry  to  see  Brunswick  on  a  crusade  this  morning,  with  a  view  to  make  reprisal.  I 
hope.  Sir,  that  the  proposition  which  1  am  about  to  offer,  will  supply  the  demands  of 
such  counties  as  complain  of  the  report  from  the  Select  Committee.  I  propose,  Mr. 
President,  to  increase  the  House  of  Delegates  ten  members — to  give  to  the  counties  of 
Charles  City,  Middlesex  and  Lancaster  one  member  each,  which  they  have  not  by 
the  said  report — to  equalize  the  political  power  in  the  other  great  sub-divisions  of  the 
State,  by  assigning  three  members  to  the  third  district;  by  which  Brunswick  may 
get  one  ;  and  two  members  to  each  of  the  districts  beyond  the  Blue  Ridge. 

I  am  well  aware.  Sir,  that  there  is  a  feeling  here  much  opposed  to  a  large  House  of 
Delegates  ;  and  I  acknowledge  that  I  strongly  participate  in  that  feeling,  and  am  wil- 
ling to  indulge  it,  when  it  will  not  occasion  too  much  sacrifice  of  counties,  respecta= 


840 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


ble  both  for  their  population  and  for  the  amount  of  taxes  which  they  pay.  The  rea- 
sons why  I  deem  my  proposition  ought  to  prevail,  I  will  briefly  state. 

Under  the  report  for  apportionment,  every  county,  yes.  Sir,  every  county  in  the 
State,  has  at  least  one  Delegate,  except  ten  counties  lying  between  James  River  and 
Potomac  River.  I  do  not  ask  that  each  of  these  counties  shall  have  a  Delegate.  No, 
Sir,  we  must  agree  that  four  of  the  smallest  counties  and  the  city  of  Williamsburg, 
ought  to  claim  but  two  Delegates — this  is  submission  and  sacrifice  enough.  But  we 
claim,  we  ought  to  claim,  that  the  six  counties,  to  wit:  Charles  City,  New  Kent, 
Middlesex,  Matthews,  Lancaster  and  Richmond,  should  have  a  Delegate  each.  They 
have  by  the  report  but  three  among  them  all — they  now  pay  an  average  amount  of 
taxes  of  $  1726  each — and  they  ask  an  addition  of  three  members — the  expense  will 
be  very  trifling  when  compared  with  the  amount  of  taxes  which  each  pays.  It  can 
hardly  be  supposed  that  the  Legislature  will  remain  in  session  hereafter  more  than 
six  or  seven  weeks — then  say  : 

45  days  at  $  4  per  day,  180 

Allow  for  traveUing,  50  $230 

So  that  each  member  will  cost  $  230 ;  and  the  whole  increase  of  expense  for  the 
ten  members  will  be  $  2,300  only.  After  the  expenses  of  a  member  be  deducted, 
there  will  remain  $1,496  in  the  Treasury  from  each  of  the  counties  for  which  I  am 
now  seeking  to  obtain  representation. 

The  claim  which  I  set  up  must  be  considered  reasonable  and  proper,  when  you  re- 
flect upon  the  great  satisfaction  and  delight  which  it  will  afford  to  the  counties  I  have 
named,  besides  answering  the  demands  in  other  parts  of  the  Commonwealth. 

Mr.  President,  I  cannot  see  why  the  three  counties  which  I  claim  representation 
for,  should  not  be  gratified.  Sir,  is  not  the  disfranchisement,  the  political  death  of  four 
counties  and  one  city,  suflacient  to  stay  the  ruthless  hand  of  innovation  ?  Will  you 
persist  to  add  three  more  counties,  ancient  and  honourable  as  they  are  ^  Remember 
your  forefathers  landed  there — it  was  there  that  your  hardy  and  valorous  ancestors 
first  implanted  civilization  in  this  western  hemisphere  ;  and  from  which  effort  sprung 
this  mighty  empire,  filled  with  happy  millions  ! 

Do  not  gorge  the  large  counties  with  Delegates  and  leave  the  smaller  ones  to  starve 
by  not  increasing  the  House  ten  more  Delegates. 

Sir,  for  some  one  or  two  centuries  these  very  counties  sustained  your  Government 
both  colonial  and  republican  by  their  full  share  of  contribution  both  in  money  and  in 
men,  whilst  they  have  never  asked,  nor  received  any  benefit  from  the  lavish  appro- 
priations of  the  public  treasure. 

It  may  be  objected,  that  according  to  the  population  of  the  said  counties,  they  have 
their  full  share  of  representation.  That  may  be  so — but  suppose  we  do  ask  represen- 
tation over  and  above  the  precise  quantum  according  to  population  1  Can  we  of  the 
East,  can  you  of  the  West  object.?  Has  it  not  been  argued  over  and  over  again  upon 
this  floor,  that  where  there  existed  identity  of  general  interests,  county  repre- 
sentation should  prevail  over  representation  upon  population,  unless  there  was  a  dis- 
proportion most  manifestly  unreasonable.  These  counties  do  not  come  within  the 
influence  of  the  exception — no  ill  whatever  can  arise  from  the  indulgence  1  ask,  and 
by  granting  it,  you  will  have  done  justice — consulted  county  pride,  county  prejudices, 
and  county  virtues. 

I  am  well  assured,  Mr.  President,  that  this  House  is  impatient  to  close  its  labours; 
therefore,  I  will  conclude.  But  I  do  hope  that  this  desire  may  not  prejudice  my  proposi- 
tion ;  if  it  should,  or  any  other  cause,  I  shall  be  gratified  in  the  reflection  that  I  have 
performed  my  duty  in  my  best  way. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  he  hoped  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Richmond  county 
would  not  prevail.  It  would  be  remembered,  perhaps,  by  some  gentlemen  that  he 
had  formerly  said  the  most  convenient  number  for  the  House  of  Delegates  would  be 
one  hundred  and  forty-six.  He  had  fixed  on  that  number  in  reference  to  the  desire 
which  gentlemen  manifested  to  have  each  of  their  counties  represented,  if  possible. 
But  it  was  impossible  to  meet  the  wishes  of  all.  To  do  that,  one  representative  must 
be  given  to  each  of  the  very  smallest  counties  in  the  State  :  and  then  the  very  large 
counties  claiming  a  representation  in  proportion,  the  result  would  be  not  a  diminution, 
but  a  considerable  increase  of  the  present  number*  of  the  House  of  Delegates.  He 
prayed  gentlemen  to  consider  the  fairness  of  the  claim  which  such  counties  as  She- 
nandoah and  Fauquier  might  advance,  if  such  counties  as  Richmond,  Lancaster  and 
Charles  City,  were  to  have  one  Delegate  a  piece.  The  very  attempt  at  equalizing 
the  representation  on  such  a  scheme  must  of  necessity  overturn  the  whole  plan  re- 
ported by  the  Select  Committee,  and  open  the  entire  field  of  contest  anew.  It  had 
been  represented  to  the  Select  Committee  by  their  respected  and  venerable  Chairman, 
(Mr.  Madison,)  upon  his  personal  knowledge,  (and  he  hoped  that  gentleman  would 
pardon  him  for  adverting  to  the  fact)  that  one  favourite  object  of  the  people  of  Vir- 
gmia  in  calling  the  present  Convention,  had  been  to  reduce  the  number  of  the  House 
of  Delegates,  if  possible,  to  one-half  of  what  it  now  stood  at     And  thereby  to  avoid 


DEBATES   OF  THE 


CONVENTION. 


841 


not  only  the  expenditure  of  a  great  deal  of  money,  but  what  was  of  still  more  conse- 
quence, a  great  deal  of  the  time  now  consumed  by  the  deliberations  of  that  body. 
The  Committee  had  cheerfully  yielded  to  this  suggestion,  and  had  so  reduced  the 
number  as  to  meet  that  object,  so  far  as  it  was  practicable  in  consistency  with  other 
valuable  objects.  Then  what  was  the  ground  of  complaint  on  the  part  of  the  gentle- 
man from  Richmond  ? 

Mr.  Xeale  here  interposed.  He  had  uttered  no  complaint  whatever.  He  was  well 
awai'e  the  Select  Committee  had  done  their  best,  mider  the  very  difficult  circumstan- 
ces in  which  they  were  placed.  He  had  not  made,  or  insinuated,  any  complaint 
against  them. 

Mr.  Leigh  said,  that  he  was  fully  aware  of  this  :  he  had  used  perhaps  too  strong  a 
phrase  ;  but  he  had  employed  the  vvord  complaint  in  its  general  sense  as  an  objection. 
What  reasonable  objection,  he  asked,  could  the  gentleman  urge  against  the  arrange- 
ments of  the  Committee  ?  His  plan  might,  no  doubt,  give  some  content  to  his  own 
district,  and  to  a  few  others  in  the  like  circumstances.  But  what  could  the  gentle- 
man himself  say,  to  skew  that  such  counties  as  Westm.oreland,  King  George,  Lan- 
caster, Richmond  and  Charles  City,  with  a  population  of  from  5  to  6,000,  should  have 
each  a  Delegate,  when  counties,  such  as  Caroline,  Chesterfield,  Hanover,  Spottsyl- 
vania  and  Southampton,  with  14,  15,  and  18,000,  were  to  have  no  more  than  one.' 
What  did  he  suppose  the  people  of  these  large  and  wealthy  counties  would  say  to  this.' 
He  appealed  to  the  candour,  the  good  sense  and  the  justice  of  the  gentleman  from 
Richmond  county,  to  say  whether  he  believed — whether  it  was  reasonable  to  expect, 
that  they  would  yield  to  those  small  counties  a  larger  representation  unless  their  own 
was  increased.'  They  had  not  yielded  even  to  the  plan  proposed  by  the  Committee 
from  any  sense  of  imperious  jz/.?^ice  in  the  case,  but  from  a  feeling  of  generosity  to- 
ward the  smaller  counties  in  the  ancient  portion  of  the  Commonwealth.  Nothing  but 
such  a  feeling  would  have  reconciled  them  to  things  even  as  they  stood  by  the  Com- 
mittee's report.  When  the  local  and  comparative  claims  were  fairly  examined,  the 
real  question  would  be  found  to  be  not  whether  the  small  counties  should  get  more, 
but  whether  the  odd  Delegate  in  the  number  assigned,  should  not  be  taken  from 
Prince  George  and  Surry,  and  given  to  Caroline  and  Chesterfield.  He  hoped  the 
proposition  would  not  prevail. 

Mr.  Neale  said,  he  should  be  glad  to  see  the  House  of  Delegates  reduced  to  one 
hundred  and  twenty,  but  that  would  not  be  practicable,  if  justice  was  to  be  done  to 
the  smaller  counties.  But  it  would  be  found,  that  those  counties  averaged  a  contri- 
bution in  taxes  to  the  amount  of  $1,726,  while  the  pay  and  mileao-e  of  a  Delegate 
would  come  to  but  $  220.  He  hoped  the  Convention  would  so  far  indulge  them  as 
to  add  ten  to  the  proposed  number  of  the  Lower  House.  The  gentleman  from  Ches- 
terfield insisted,  that  if  the  small  counties  were  to  be  thus  indulged,  then  Chesterfield 
and  Caroline  would  each  be  entitled  to  two  Delegates.  But  ha^d  it  not  been  urged  in 
argument  throughout  the  debate,  that  where  there  was  a  complete  identit}-  of  interest 
between  the  counties,  there  was  no  necessity  of  adhering,  with  rigid  strictness,  to  a 
proportional  distribution  of  representation  ?  He  had  himself  voted  repeatedly  on  that 
principle.  He  knew  the  Committee  had  disposed  of  the  one  hundred  and  thirty-two 
Delegates  in  the  fairest  possible  manner.  He  had  no  complaint  on  that  subject.  All 
he  asked  was,  that  the  number  might  be  raised  to  one  hundred  and  forty-two  ;  and  then 
there  would  still  be  a  reduction  in  the  number  of  the  House  of  seventy-two  members. 

Mr.  Nicholas  said,  that  the  proposition  went  to  give  his  own  district  one  additional 
member  :  and  therefore,  if  the  question  were  an  insulated  one,  as  a  Representative  of 
that  district,  he  should,  of  course,  be  disposed  to  gratify  the  wishes  of  the  mover. 
But  it  was  necessary  to  look  at  other  considerations.  All  must  see  the  great  embar- 
rassment that  would  result  from  disturbing  the  arrangement  of  the  Committee.  He 
was  strongly  impressed  with  the  truth  and  justice  of  the  remarks  of  the  gentleman 
from  Chesterfield,  that  if  this  measure  should  carry,  great  injustice  must  be  done  to 
the  larger  counties,  unless  the  House  of  Delegates  should  be  greatly  increased,  in- 
stead of  being  reduced  in  number.  He  was  against  disarranging  the  whole  plan  of 
distribution  adopted  by  the  Committee.  On  that  principle,  he  had  yesterday  voted 
asfainst  taking  a  Delegate  from  Brunswick,  and  giving  it  to  Franklin.  He  thought 
it" was  better  to  put  up  with  a  partial  inconvenience,  than  throw  the  Convention  upon 
the  ocean  of  contending  claims.  He  should  still  act  on  that  principle — and  should, 
therefore,  vote  against  the  proposition.  Each  gentleman  naturally  sought  to  advance 
the  interests  of  his  own  part  of  the  State ;  but  nothing  could  be  done  unless  they 
were  resolved  to  act  in  a  spirit  of  compromise. 

He  referred  to  the  case  of  Brunswick  and  Franklin,  to  shew  the  difiiculty  of  any 
new  arranofement — and  expressed  his  belief,  that  should  he  vote  for  the  present  amend- 
ment, he  should,  in  the  end,  injure  the  interests  of  Iris  district,  by  unhinging  the 
arrangement  of  the  whole  subject. 

INIrT  N.  referred  to  the  great  length  of  time  already  consumed,  and  the  discredi- 
table spectacle  exhibited  bv  the  Convention,  in  contendinar  thus  for  local  interests 

106 


842 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


merely.  After  disputing  and  discussing  the  principle  of  representation,  and  at  length 
agreeing  on  a  compromise,  would  it  not  be  disgraceful  to  wind  up  in  a  mere  county 
scuffle?  He  saw  distinctly,  that  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  was  impracticable;  or  if 
not  so,  to  be  attained  only  at  the  expense  of  heart-burnings  and  resentment  in  va- 
rious parts  of  the  Commonwealth.  He  should,  therefore,  though  with  reluctance,  be 
obliged  to  vote  in  the  negative. 

Mr.  Tyler  said,  that  some  of  the  remarks  of  his  colleague  had  been  such  as  to  re- 
quire him  to  make  a  very  few  remarks  in  reply,  as  he  intended  to  vote  the  other  way. 
If  he  saw  that  such  a  result  could  possibly  follow,  as  his  colleague  seemed  to  appre- 
hend, he  should  certainly  be  one  of  the  last  men,  one  of  the  very  last,  to  vote  in  its 
favor — and  if  it  could  be  demonstrated,  that  such  was  to  be  the  result,  he  should  aban- 
don the  scheme  with  promptitude.  But  did  the  proposition  do  injustice  to  any  part 
of  the  State  ?  Did  it  interfere  v;ith  the  great  plan  of  apportionment,  which  settled 
the  relative  representation  of  the  four  great  divisions  of  the  State  ?  Did  it  deny  any 
thing  to  the  middle  country?  To  the  Valley?  Or  to  the  trans-Alleghany  district? 
Was  it  not  a  perfectly  fair  and  just  apportionment?  Pray  what  cabalistic  force  was 
there  in  that  mystic  number  one  hundred  and  thirty-two  ?  If  the  principle  adopted 
by  the  Convention  was  preserved,  how,  in  the  name  of  all  that  was  just,  could  this 
arrangement  merit  censure  or  complaint?  Did  they  not  allow  to  others  the  same 
thing  which  they  claimed  for  themselves  ?  He  was  not,  however,  pertinacious  in  fa- 
vour of  the  plan,  but  he  wished  to  vindicate  himself  from  the  charge  of  injustice.  It 
was  natural,  that  he  should  desire  to  see  the  system  of  county  representation  adopted. 
He  had  from  the  first  kept  that  plan  in  his  eye  as  the  just  plan.  He  had  always  de- 
sired a  graduated  system  on  the  county  principle.  He  had  never  asked,  however, 
that  the  large  counties  should  be  shorn  of  their  representation — he  was  for  according 
to  all  their  own  favourite  views.  There  was  a  perfect  identity  of  interest  between 
the  large  counties  and  the  small  ones.  Charles  City  and  Chesterfield  acted  in  the 
same  spirit,  and  had  the  same  interests  and  aims.  The  Delegates  from  one  would 
speak  the  interests  of  the  other.  They  all  had  one  common  cause.  If,  then,  the  ar- 
rangement would  be  attended  with  no  injurious  consequences,  why  should  this  boon 
be  denied  to  counties  which  had  existed  for  one  hundred  and  fifty  years  ?  A  wise 
Statesman  would  consult  the  feelings,  and  even  the  prejudices  of  those  for  whom  he 
was  providing  a  Government,  and  would  seek  to  bind  the  people  together  by  one  in- 
dissoluble cord.  Why,  then,  violate  the  feelings  of  the  people,  who  had  enjoyed  a 
representation  for  two  hundred  years,  and  in  search  of  a  mathematical  exactness, 
(which,  after  all,  could  never  be  attained,)  deprive  Richmond  and  Lancaster  of  all 
voice  in  the  public  offices  ?  With  the  utmost  disposition,  he  doubted  not,  on  the  part 
of  the  Committee  to  do  justice,  they  had  caused  his  district  to  embrace  no  less  than 
seven  counties  and  one  borough,  while  in  the  Senatorial  district,  they  would  utterly 
be  silenced  by  Henrico  and  Richmond  City.  They  had  united  York  to  Accomack. 
Though  Accomack  was  able  to  swallow  York  alive,  she  could  have  no  voice  in  the 
Legislature,  save  by  the  mere  grant  and  good  pleasure  of  Accomack  and  Northamp- 
ton. Charles  City,  James  City  and  New-Kent,  would  be  silenced  by  the  voice  of 
Richmond  and  Henrico.  He  did  not  urge  this  in  the  spirit  of  complaint — and  he 
candidly  acknowledged  that  he  had  himself  been  able  to  devise  no  better  scheme. 
But,  he  used  these  facts  as  an  argument  to  shew  that  the  number  of  the  House  of 
Delegates  ought  to  be  enlarged.  He  asked  gentlemen  to  give  them  a  real  represen- 
tation in  that  House,  and  not  in  mere  pretence.  He  urged  not  the  slightest  imputa- 
tion against  the  Committee — they  had  acted  with  the  most  perfect  candour  and  frank- 
ness. On  the  contrary,  he  would  go  into  an  eulogium  of  their  many  virtues,  did  he 
not  know  it  would  be  disagreeable  to  them  to  hear  it.  He  threw  himself  on  the  spirit 
of  liberality  and  of  justice,  which  he  knew  to  exist  in  that  Convention.  He  had 
voted  in  favour  of  giving  a  Delegate  to  Franklin,  not  on  the  claims  of  some  gentle- 
men as  to  principle,  but  because  he  looked  to  a  scheme  that  would  produce  peace. 
He  was  not  for  taking  a  Delegate  from  Brunswick,  or  one  from  Loudoun,  but  for  so 
far  increasing  the  number  of  Delegates  as  to  do  justice,  if  possible,  to  all  parts  of  the 
State. 

The  question  was  then  taken  on  Mr.  Neale's  proposition,  and  decided  by  ayes  and 
noes  as  follows : 

^yes — Messrs.  Tyler,  Clopton,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Claiborne,  Henderson, 
Cooke,  See,  Neale,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 12. 

JVoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond, 
Nicholas,  Anderson,  CofFman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy,  Moore, 
Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  trezvant,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Lo- 
gan, Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Osborne,  Powell, 
Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan, 
Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Koane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Cloyd, 
Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan^  Laidley,  Summers,  Doddridge,  Morgan, 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


843 


Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fau- 
quier, Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders, 
Branch,  Townes,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates, 
Rose  and  Coalter — 83. 

Mr.  Massie  moved  a  re-consideration  of  the  vote  by  which  a  Delegate  had  been 
taken  from  Brunswick  and  given  to  Franklin — and  then  the  whole  battle  which  had 
been  fought  yesterday,  was  fought  over  again  with  renewed  ardour. 

Mr.  Stuart  opposed  the  motion,  and  expressed  his  surprise  at  the  attempt.  Mr. 
Randolph  supported  the  motion.  Mr.  Townes  replied  to  Mr.  Randolph.  He  was 
succeeded  by  Mr.  Stuart,  who  declared  that  if  the  injustice  was  done  of  depriving 
Franklin  of  the  Delegate,  he  could  not  support  such  a  Constitution.  Mr.  Dromgoole 
thanked  the  gentleman  from  Nelson,  (Mr.  Massie.)  for  making  his  motion,  and  sup- 
ported at  some  length  the  proposition.  He  concluded  with  saying,  that  whatever 
menace  the  gentleman  from  Patrick  might  throw  out  about  not  voting  for  the  Consti- 
tution, all  he  could  say  was,  that  he  hoped  the  Convention  would  do  justice,  whatever 
be  the  vote  of  any  particular  person  for  or  against  the  Constitution.  For  himself,  he 
would  make  no  such  pledge — throw  out  no  such  menace. 

Messrs.  Claytor,  Cabell  and  Saunders,  supported  the  claims  of  Franklin. 

Mr.  Claiborne  supported  the  claim  of  Brunswick. 

After  a  long  and  animated  debate,  the  motion  for  re-consideration  was  carried  by 
ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond,  Tyler, 
Nicholas,  Clopton,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph, 
Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Hollada}^,  Griggs,  Roane,  Ta}^- 
lor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fau- 
quier, Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch.  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates, 
Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Baylj^,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 49. 

Js^oes — Messrs.  Anderson,  CofFman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  INFCoy,  Moore, 
Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell, 
Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Camp- 
bell of  Washington,  Byars,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby ,  Duncan,  Laidley ,  Summers, 
See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Clay- 
tor, Saunders,  Townes,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart  and  Thompson — 45. 

Mr.  Townes  now  moved,  that  Loudoun  be  placed  among  the  counties  which  have 
two  Delegates,  and  Franklin  retained  in  that  list,  the  Delegate  taken  from  Loudoun 
being  given  to  Franklin.  This  motion  brought  new  troops  into  the  field,  and  the  con- 
test was  renewed  with  great  spirit,  but  it  issued  in  a  very  decided  rejection  of  the 
measure  proposed. 

On  a  suggestion  from  Mr.  Townes, 

Mr.  Stuart  withdrew  his  motion,  upon  an  understanding  that  he  v/ould  renew  it 
hereafter. 

Mr.  Townes  then  moved  to  strike  Loudoun  out  of  the  counties  which  had  been  as- 
signed three  Delegates,  in  order  to  give  o?ie  more  to  Franklin.  He  supported  this  pro- 
position by  a  speech. 

When  the  motion  was  announced,  Mr.  Stuart  stated,  that  he  did  not  know  the  mo- 
tion which  his  colleague  meant  to  make — that  he  would  not  be  the  means  of  doing 
injustice  to  one  county,  (Loudoun.)  to  do  justice  to  Franklin — that  he  thought  Lou- 
doun fairly  entitled  to  three  Delegates. 

Mr.  Henderson  supported  the  right  of  Loudoun  to  three  Representatives,  upon  any 
test  which  might  be  laid  down — and  he  laid  down  several  tests  for  this  purpose,  as 
white  population,  tax-paying  people,  fighting  people,  &c.  &c. 

Mr.  Randolph  supported  the  proposition — declaring  that  he  was  opposed  to  allowing 
any  county  in  this  district  three  votes — particularly  while  so  many  other  great  coun- 
ties, as  Spottsylvania,  Caroline,  and  others,  have  only  one  Delegate. 

Mr.  Henderson  replied. 

Mr.  Leigh  spoke  in  favour  of  the  proposition. 

Mr.  Mercer  spoke  at  great  length  in  favour  of  the  claim  of  Loudoun  to  three  De- 
legates. 

Mr.  Nicholas  also  supported  the  claims  of  Loudoun. 

After  some  discussion  between  Messrs.  Stuart  and  Townes,  Mr.  Fitzhugh  rose  to 
ask  if  there  was  no  way  of  putting  an  end  to  this  interminable  spirit  of  debate. 

The  Chair  replied,  that  he  had  looked  into  this  subject,  and  could  not  satisfy  him- 
self that  there  was  any  other  rule  than  the  good  sense  of  the  House. 

Mr.  Cabell  spoke  in  opposition  to  the  motion  of  his  colleague,  (Mr.  Townes.) 

Mr.  Scott  supported  the  proposition,  to  take  a  member  from  Loudoun. 

The  ayes  and  noes  were  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Mason  of  Southampton, 


844 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Sta- 
nard,  Holladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper, 
Scott,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch, 
Townes,  Martin,  Rose,  Coaller  and  Perrin — 37. 

JYoes — Messrs.  Marshall  of  Richmond,  Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Anderson,  CofF- 
man,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter, 
Madison,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of 
Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of 
Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Sum- 
mers, See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford, 
Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell, '  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates, 
Neale,  Joynes,  Bayly  and  Upshur — 58. 

Mr.  Stuart  now  renewed  his  motion,  going  to  give  an  additional  representative  to 
Franklin  at  the  expense  of  Brunswick.  It  was  put  in  the  form  of  striking  out  the 
latter  and  inserting  Franklin. 

Mr.  Brodnax  opposed  the  proposition — and  urged  that  the  report  of  the  Select  Confv- 
mittee  should  remain  undisturbed,  and  regretted  that  the  Convention,  on  whom  the 
eyes  of  the  civilized  world  are  fixed,  should  exhibit  the  example  of  a  body  whose 
members  were  huckstering  for  power.    He  spoke  at  great  length. 

Mr.  Saunders  supported  the  proposition. 

Mr.  Dromgoole  demanded  a  division  of  the  question  ;  in  consequence  of  which  it 
was  first  put  on  striking  out,  and  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Cofl'man,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy,  Moore, 
Beirne, Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell, 
Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan, 
Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan, 
Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Scott, 
Green,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Townes,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart 
and  Thompson — 49. 

JYoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond, 
Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart, 
Randolph,  Leigli  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane, 
Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Marshall  of  Fauquier, 
Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates, 
Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 46. 

So  Brunswick  was  stricken  out.  Franklin  was  then  inserted  by  the  following  vote  : 

Ayes-— Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Marshall  of  Richmond,  Nicholas,  Clopton, 
Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith, 
Miller,  Baxter,  Pvandolph,  Logan,  Madison,  Stanard,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson, 
Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd, 
Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Taylor  of  Caroline, 
Morris,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See, 
Doddridge,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green, 
Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Loyall,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Branch, 
Townes,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale, 
Rose,  Coalter,  Bayly  and  Upshur — 72. 

JYoes— Messi-s.  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Giles,  Brod- 
nax, Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Tyler,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant, 
Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Leigli  of  Halifax,  Venable,  Holladay,  Roane,  Garnett,  Taze- 
well, Prentis,  Grigsby,  Joynes  and  Perrin — 23. 

Mr.  Naylor  moved  to  transfer  Hardy  from  the  Senatorial  district  of  Shenandoah,  to 
the  district  of  Rockingham  and  Pendli-ton. 

Mr.  M'Coy  said,  he  presumed  the  motion  was  only  a  spice  of  party  politics.  [The 
Chair  called  to  order.]  He  then  went  into  the  argument  to  show  that  Hardy  v/as  the 
natural  ally  of  Shenandoah,  not  of  Rockingham. 

Mr.  Naylor  said,  the  political  idea  had  never  struck  him  before  ;  but  since  the  in- 
genuity of  the  gentleman  had  suggested  it.  he  began  to  think  there  was  something 
in  it.  And  was  that  gentleman  himself  actuated  by  that  consideration  ?  But  if  Hardy 
was  to  be  punished  for  her  political  sins,  he  hoped  she  would  not  be  attached  to  the 
car  of  Shenandoah:  [The  Chair  called  twice  to  order.]  Mr.  Naylor  said,  he  should 
not  have  made  such  remarks,  if  the  gentleman,  who  has  so  long  been  in  public  life, 
had  not  set  him  the  example. 

Mr.  Anderson  said,  that  Hardy  was  the  natural  ally  of  Shenandoah— but  to  allay 
the  fears  of  the  gentleman,  he  would  promise  him  that  she  would  always  be  repre- 
sented in  the  councils  of  the  country  by  a  republican  of  the  old  school. 

Mr.  Smith  obtained  the  floor  to  offer  some  other  change— but  owing  to  the  lateness 
of  the  hour,  he  declined  pressing  his  proposition  at  the  present  sitting,  and  moved  an 
adjournment :  which  motion  succeeding  by  a  small  majority,  the  House  adjourned. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


845 


MONDAY,  January  11,  1830, 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Croes  of  the  Episcopal  Church. 

Mr.  Smith  of  Greenbrier,  moved  an  amendment  to  the  report  of  the  committee  on 
representation.  It  proposed  to  detach  Greenbrier  county  from  the  Senatorial'  district 
of  Monroe,  Giles  and  JMontgomery,  and  attach  it  to  that  of  Alleghany,  Ba^k-  and 
Botetourt. 

The  county  contest  was  now  commenced  afresh,  and  continued  without  intermis- 
sion, till  near  five  o'clock  in  the  afternoon. 

After  a  discussion,  in  wliich  the  motion  was  advocated  warmly  by  the  mover,  and 
by  Messrs.  Cloyd  and  Chapman  ;  and  opposed  by  Mr.  Beirne  and  Mr.  Miller,  the 
question  was  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — jlessrs.  Marshall  of  Richmond,  Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  CofFman,  Wil- 
liamson, Baldwin,  -Nloore,  Smith,  Madison,  Stanard,  Mercer,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Griggs, 
Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Miilan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chap- 
man, Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Summers,  See,  Wilson,  Green,  Campbell  of  Bed- 
ford, Clay  tor,  Saunders,  Branch,  Townes,  Stuart,  Thompson,  Coalter,  Bayly  and 
Upshur— 40. 

JVoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Anderson,  Harrison,  M'Coy,  Beirne, 
Miller,  Baxter,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph, 
Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Holladay,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Powell,  Naylor, 
Donaldson,  Roane,  Taj'lor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Laidley,  Morgan,  Campbell 
of  Brooke,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall, 
Prentis,  Grigsby,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Joynes  and 
Perrin — 51. 

Mr.  Claytor  moved  the  following  : 

To  strike  out  the  following  clause  :  "  The  counties  of  Bedford  and  Franklin,  shall 
form  another  district:  the  counties  of  Buckingham,  Campbell  and  Cumberland,  shall 
form  another  district :  the  counties^  of  Patrick,  Henry  and  Pittsylvania,  shall  form 
another  district :  the  counties  of  Halifax  and  Mecklenburg  shall  form  another  dis- 
trict:  the  counties  of  Charlotte,  Lunenburg,  Nottoway  and  Prince  Edward,  shall 
form  another  district:  the  counties  of  Amelia,  Powhatan  and  Chesterfield,  and  the 
town  of  Petersburg,  shall  form  another  district:  the  counties  of  Brunswick,  Dinwid- 
dle, Greensville  and  Prince  George,  shall  form  another  district:  the  counties  of  Isle 
of  Wight,  Southampton,  Surry  and  Sussex,  shall  form  another  district :  and  the 
counties  of  Norfolk,  Nansemond  and  Princess  Anne,  and  the  borough  of  Norfolk, 
shall  form  another  district." — And  substitute  the  following  : 

"The  counties  of  Patrick,  Henry  and  Franklin,  shall  form  another  district:  the 
counties  of  Pittsylvania  and  Plalifax,  shall  form  another  district:  the  counties  of 
Bedford  and  Campbell,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Mecklenburg, 
Charlotte,  Lunenburg  and  Nottoway,  shall  form  anotner  district :  the  counties  of 
Prince  Edward,  Buckingham,  Cumberland  and  Powhatan,  shall  form  another  dis- 
trict: the  counties  of  Amelia,  Chesterfield,  Prince  George,  and  the  town  of  Pe- 
tersburg, shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Brunswick,  Greensville,  Din- 
widdie  and  Sussex,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Surry,  Isle  of  Wight, 
Soutbampton  and  Nansemond,  shall  form  another  district;  and  the  counties  of  Nor- 
folk, Princess  Anne,  and  the  borough  of  Norfolk,  shall  form  another  district." 

He  supported  the  amendment  at  considerable  length — and  it  was  farther  advocated 
by  Messrs.  Saunders  and  Stuart ;  and  opposed  by  Messrs.  Brodnax,  Branch,  Ran- 
dolph, Martin,  Venable  and  Giles;  when  the  question  being  taken,  it  was  decided 
by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Anderson,  CofFman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy, 
Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson, Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell, 
Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan, 
Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan, 
Summers,  See,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  W^ilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor, 
Saunders,  Townes,  Cabell,  Stuart  and  Thompson — 43. 

Koes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond, 
Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Miller,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne, 
Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay, 
Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Laidley,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott, 
Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsb}',  Branch,  Martin, 
Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and 
Perrin — 51. 

So  the  amendment  was  negatived. 

Mr.  Morris  moved  an  amendment  which  went  to  add  CaroUne  to  the  list  of  coun= 


846 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


ties  entitled  to  two  Delegates,  and  advocated  his  motion  at  length  ;  but  consented  to 
withdraw  it  at  the  request  of 

Mr.  Leigh,  who  moved  an  amendment  going  to  increase  the  House  of  Delegates 
to  one  hundred  and  thirty-nine  :  giving  two  more  to  the  trans-Alleghany  district, 
(viz  :  one  to  Wythe  and  one  to  Montgomery,)  one  to  the  Valley  (to  be  disposed  of 
among  themselves,  perhaps  to  Augusta,)  two  to  the  Middle  district,  (viz  :  one  to 
Brunswick,  and  the  other  probably  to  Louisa,)  and  two  to  the  country  on  tide-water, 
(viz  :  one  to  Caroline,  and  one  to  Chesterfield.) 

Mr.  Nicholas  and  Mr.  Morris  expressed  their  approbation  of  this  plan. 

Mr.  Powell  wished  the  Valley  to  have  one  more  Delegate,  in  which  case  he  should 
vote  for  it. 

Mr.  Leigh  could  not  consent  to  this,  as  it  would  mar  the  proportion  already  fixed 
by  the  Convention. 

Mr.  Stanard  suggested,  by  way  of  reconciling  the  difference,  to  give  one  Delegate 
to  Fredericksburg. 

The  plan  was  advocated  by  Messrs.  Gordon  and  Neale :  Messrs.  Clay  tor  and  Scott 
opposed  it. 

Mr.  Madison,  though  in  favour  of  reducing  the  number  of  Delegates  as  far  as  con- 
venient, gave  his  assent  to  the  plan,  in  the  hope  that  it  would  produce  an  arrangement 
more  acceptable  both  to  the  Convention  and  to  the  people. 

The  motion  was  opposed  by  Messrs.  Claytor  and  Scott ;  and  decided  by  ayes  and 
noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Giles,  Brod- 
nax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond,  Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton, 
Moore,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of 
Halifax,  Madison,  Henderson,  Cooke,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett, 
Cloyd,  Mathews,  Green,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Townes,  Martin,  Plea- 
sants, Gordon,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 45. 

JYoes— Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Anderson,  Cotfman,  Harrison,  Williamson, 
Baldwin,  M'Coy,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Logan,  Venable,  Stanard,  HoUaday, 
Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Osborne,  Povs^ell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson, 
Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Chapman, 
Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson, 
Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor, 
Saunders,  Branch,  Cabell,  Stuart,  Thompson  and  Massie — 49. 

So  the  plan  of  Mr.  Leigh  was  rejected. 

Mr.  Morris  now  renewed  the  motion  for  his  amendment,  giving  two  Delegates  to 
Caroline,  by  taking  one  from  the  Northern  Neck. 

Mr.  Naylor  called  for  a  division  of  the  question,  (viz :  first  on  striking  out.) 
Mr.  Neale  regretted  these  family  divisions,  which  w^ere  springing  up  among  them, 
and  particularly  that  the  gentleman  from  Planover  was  seeking  to  get  a  Delegate  for 
^        his  county  at  the  expense  of  his  district.    For  his  own  part,  Mr.  N.  said,  he  regarded 
/        the  Select  Committee  as  an  impartial  umpire — they  had  given  their  award — and  he 
'        did  not  think  it  right  to  disturb  it,  unless  corruption  could  be  proved  in  its  jrro- 
ceedings. 

Mr.  Coalter  opposed  the  motion :  He  said  he  went  upon  no  other  basis  than  the 
basis  of  the  Select  Committee.    He  hoped  its  report  would  not  be  disturbed. 

Mr.  Morris  again  withdrew  his  amendment  to  make  room  for  another,  read  by  Mr. 
Miller,  as  follows  : 

"  Strike  out  the  counties  of  Brunswick,  Caroline,  Montgomery  and  Wythe,  re- 
spectively, from  among  the  counties  to  which  one  Delegate  each  is  allotted,  and  in- 
sert them  in  their  proper  places  among  the  counties  to  which  two  Delegates  each  are 
allotted." 

Mr.  Leigh  moved  to  amend  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Miller,  by  inserting  after  Caro- 
line the  county  of  Chesterfield. 

The  motion  was  carried  :  Ayes  47,  Noes  45. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  moved  further  to  amend  by  inserting  "  Fairfax." 

The  motion  was  opposed  by  Mr.  Mason  of  Southampton,  and  negatived. 

Mr.  Smith  moved  further  to  amend  by  inserting  "  Greenbrier;"  but  this  motion 
was  also  negatived. 

The  question  was  now  taken  on  Mr.  Miller's  motion  and  negatived,  (that  gentle- 
man saying,  that  as  the  object  of  his  motion  was  defeated  he  should  now  himself  vote 
against  it.) 

Mr.  Morris  now  offered,  for  the  third  time,  his  amendment,  for  inserting  Caroline, 
but  it  was  negatived. 

Mr.  M.  said,  that  he  should  be  the  last  man  to  charge  the  report  of  the  Select 
Committee  with  corruption,  attending  to  Mr.  Neale's  jocular  and  technical  remark, 
but  he  alleged  that  it  might  be  set  aside,  as  other  awards  for  obvious  mistake  on  the 
face  of  it. 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


847 


Mr.  Mason  of  Southampton,  moved  to  transfer  Prince  George  from  the  Brunswick 
Senatorial  district,  to  the  district  of  Isle  of  Wight.    It  was  agreed  to. 

Mr.  Goode  now  moved  that  Brunswick  and  Montgomery  should  receive  one  Dele- 
gate each,  and  for  that  purpose  the  number  of  the  House  of  Delegates  should  be  in- 
creased from  one  hundred  and  thirty-two  to  one  hundred  and  thirty-four.  As  one 
reason  for  this  motion,  he  produced  a  letter  from  the  Auditor  of  Public  Accounts, 
stating  that  even  upon  his  own  principles  of  calculation,  there  was  a  mistake  in  esti- 
mating the  population  of  Brunswick  by  2,000  white  population  short. 

Mr.  Mathews  moved  to  add  Wythe  and  Chesterfield. 

After  a  debate  in  which  Messrs.  Brodnax,  Scott  and  Chapman  took  part, 

The  question  was  divided  on  Mr.  Powell's  motion,  and  put  separately  on  Wythe, 
and  then  on  Chesterfield  ;  but  both  were  negatived. 

The  question  respecting  Brunswick  and  Montgomery  (which  had  technically  been 
proposed  in  the  form  that  they  be  stricken  out  of  the  list  of  counties  having  one 
Delegate  and  inserted  in  that  of  counties  having  two,)  was  divided  and  put  first  on 
striking  out. 

The  count  of  the  Chair  made  the  ayes  46,  and  the  noes  45.  The  Chair  voting  in 
the  negative,  produced  a  tie,  and  the  motion  was  pronounced  to  be  lost;  but  on  a 
second  count,  the  ayes  stood  47,  and  the  noes  44 — so  it  was  carried. 

Mr.  Madison  now  observed,  that  if  any  doubt  had  existed  as  to  the  propriety  of 
maintaining  an  exact  and  permanent  rule  for  the  apportionment  of  representation  in 
a  free  Government,  he  thought  the  recent  course  of  debate  here  must  have  effectually 
removed  it.  He  had  thought  that  the  best  mode  of  arranging  the  subject  would  have 
been  to  prescribe  to  the  Legislature  a  fixed  basis  of  apportionment ;  and  he  still  thought 
it  deserved  consideration,  whether  the  Convention  ought  not  to  provide  some  settled 
plan  for  future  apportionments.  Unless  some  such  provision  should  be  made,  great 
inequality  would  grow  up  under  the  operation  of  the  plan  agreed  to — the  people 
would  call  for  a  remedy,  and  finding  none  in  the  Constitution,  they  would  resort  to 
another  Convention,  against  the  necessity  of  which  there  seemed  to  be  a  universal 
wish  to  guard,  as  far  as  would  be  consistent  with  the  principles  and  interests  of  the 
Republic.  * 

Within  the  four  great  districts,  the  Legislature  was  empowered,  it  was  true,  to  cor- 
rect any  inequalities  which  might  arise,  but  not  to  remedy  any  inequality,  as  between 
those  districts  themselves.  And  yet  the  time  must  come,  and  perhaps  was  not  far  dis- 
tant, when  there  would  be  as  great  a  demand  for  interference  in  the  latter  case  as  in 
the  former. 

He  wished,  therefore,  to  submit  an  amendment  in  reference  to  that  subject,  though 
it  was  with  great  reluctance  that  he  brought  it  forward  at  so  late  a  day,  and  especially 
at  so  late  an  hour.  If  it  did  not  at  once  meet  the  views  of  the  Convention,  he  had 
no  disposition  whatever  to  press  it  on  them.  Mr.  Madison  then  read  the  following 
resolution : 

"  The  General  Assembly,  after  the  year  ,  and  at  intervals  thereafter,  of  not 

less  than  years,  shall  have  authority,  two-thirds  of  each  House  concurring,  to 

make  re-apportionments  of  Delegates  and  Senators  throughout  the  Commonwealth, 
so  that  the  number  of  Delegates  shall  not  at  any  time  exceed  ,  nor  of  Sena- 

tors, ." 

The  Chair  suggested,  that  the  amendment  would  better  cohere  to  that  which  had 
been  offered  by  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Cooke,)  and  which  lay  at  present 
on  the  table. 

Mr.  Madison  consented,  that  it  should  not  be  considered  until  that  was  taken  up. 

Mr.  Mathews  now  moved  to  strike  the  counties  of  Wythe  and  Chesterfield  from 
the  class  of  counties  entitled  to  one  Delegate,  and  insert  them  in  that  of  those  having 
two. 

Mr.  Taylor  of  Caroline  moved  to  amend  the  amendment,  by  adding  the  word 
"  Caroline." 

But  this  amendment  was  negatived. 

The  motion  of  Mr.  Mathews  was  then  discussed  by  Messrs.  Dromgoole,  Scott, 
Mercer  and  Leigh,  and  finally  negatived — Ayes  34. 

Mr.  Branch  moved  a  re-consideration  of  the  vote  by  which  Mr.  Leigh's  plan  for 
increasing  the  House  of  Delegates  to  one  hundred  and  thirty-nine  members,  had 
been  rejected. 

Mr.  Marshall  of  Fauquier  advocated  the  motion.  He  stated,  that  if  the  question 
were,  whether  we  shall  have  a  large  or  a  small  House  of  Delegates,  he  should  cer- 
tainly vote  in  favour  of  a  reduction ;  but,  as  the  number  originally  adopted  had  been 
increased  for  the  purpose  of  consulting  the  convenience  of  the  people,  he  was  willing 
for  the  same  reason  to  vote  for  the  increase  now  proposed. 

The  motion  was  negatived  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Jlijcs — -Messrs.  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Giles,  Brodnax, 
Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond,  Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton, 


848 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax, 
Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris, 
Garnett,  Mathews,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell, 
Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter, 
Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin— 46. 

jYoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson, 
Baldwin,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Hender- 
son, Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Nay  lor,  Donaldson,  Boyd, 
Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman, 
Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson, 
Scott,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Clay  tor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Thompson, 
Massie  and  Bates— 48. 

Mr.  Chapman  moved  an  adjournment,  but  it  was  negatived. 

The  question  was  then  put  on  adopting  the  report  of  the  Select  Committee,  arrang- 
ing the  representation  in  both  Houses,  as  amended,  (viz  :  by  adding  two  to  the  Lower 
House,  which  are  to  be  given  to  Brunswick  and  Montgomery,)  and  carried.  . 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke  now  moved  an  adjournment,  but  it  was  lost. 

Mr.  Powell  moved,  that  when  the  Convention  adjourn,  it  adjourn  to  meet  at  10 
o'clock  to-morrow,  which  was  agreed  to. 

The  question  was  then  put  by  the  Chair,  shall  the  draught  of  the  Constitution,  as 
amended,  be  engrossed  for  a  third  reading  ?  when 

Mr.  Leigh  moved  to  amend  it,  by  striking  out  the  counties  of  Wythe,  Caroline 
and  Chesterfield,  from  the  list  of  counties  having  one  Delegate,  and  inserting  them 
among  those  having  two,  (giving  the  House  of  Delegates  one  hundred  and  thirty- 
seven  members.) 

The  Chair  pronounced  the  motion  not  in  order,  the  House  having  agreed  to  the 
report  of  the  Select  Committee. 

Mr.  Leigh  thereupon  moved  a  re-consideration  of  the  vote  adopting  the  report. 
But  the  motion  was  negatived  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

£yes — Messrs.  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Giles,  Brodnax, 
Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richm»nd,  Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton, 
Moore,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of 
Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Holladay,  Henderson,  Cooke,  Roane,  Taylor  of 
Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  LtoyaW,  Prentis,  Grigsby, 
Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly, 
Upshur  and  Perrin — 46. 

J\bes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson, 
Baldwin,  M'Coy,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Stanard,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Os- 
borne, Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton, 
George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews, 
Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson, 
Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell, 
Stuart,  Thompson,  Massie  and  Bates — 48. 

So  the  House  refused  to  re-consider. 

Mr.  Summers  moved  to  amend  the  fourteenth  section  of  the  Constitution,  in  that 
clause  of  it  which  requires  the  Governor  to  be  a  native  citizen  of  the  United  States, 
so  as  to  enable  one  who  had  been  a  citizen  for  fourteen  years,  to  be  eligible,  though 
not  a  native  born. 

The  motion  was  lost. 

Mr.  Summers  then  moved  to  amend  the  section,  so  as  to  allow  those  who  had  been 
citizens  of  the  United  States  at  the  adoption  of  the  Federal  Constitution,  to  be  eli- 
gible as  Governor. 

The  motion  was  carried — Ayes  46,  Noes  41. 

Mr.  Madison  now  observed,  that  he  was  deeply  impressed  with  the  importance  of 
the  subject  involved  in  the  amendment  he  had  offered,  and  expressed  his  desire  that 
it  might  be  considered.  To  illustrate  the  necessity  of  having  some  provision  to  suit 
the  varying  condition  of  the  State,  he  put  the  case,  that  Norfolk  should  (as  he  hoped 
would  be  the  case,)  reach  a  great  population  :  that  city  could  not  be  duly  represented 
in  the  Legislature,  unless  some  Delegate  were  taken  from  one  of  the  other  counties 
or  boroughs.  Pie  wished  that  his  opinion  on  this  subject  might  appear,  and  he  hoped 
the  amendment  might  be  considered. 

Mr.  Upshur  now  moved,  that  Mr.  Madison's  amendment  be  laid  on  the  table  and 
printed.  The  hour  was  late,  (5  o'clock.)  and  this  arrangement  would  cause  no  loss 
of  time. 

The  question  was  agreed  to,  and  the  printing  ordered. 

Mr.  Coalter,  wishing  to  see  how  the  Constitution  now  stood,  since  the  amendments 
had  been  made,  moved  for  its  being  printed  as  amended;  but,  on  the  suggestion  of 
Mr.  Powell,  he  withdrew  his  motion. 

It  was  renewed  by  Mr.  Cooke,  and  carried — Ayes  51. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  M'Coy,  the  House  then  adjourned. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


849 


TUESDAY,  Jaxuary  12,  1830. 

The  Convention  met  before  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev. 
Mr.  Lee  of  the  Episcopal  Ciiurcb. 

Mr.  Madison  filled  the  blanks  in  his  proposition,  and  otherwise  modified  it,  so  as  to 
make  it  read ; 

The  General  Assembly,  after  the  year  1341,  and  at  intervals  thereafter,  of  not 
less  than  ten  years,  shall  have  authority,  two-thirds  of  each  House  concurring,  to 
make  re-apportionments  of  Delegates  and  Senators  throughout  the  Commonwealth, 
so  that  the  number  of  Delegates  shall  not  at  any  time  exceed  cue  hundred  and  fifty, 
nor  of  Senators,  thirty-six." 

Mr.  Chapman  moved  ^  amend  the  resolution  of  Mr.  ]\Iadison,  by  striking  out  that 
part  whicli  requires  the  assent  of  t  A'O-thirds  of  the  Legislature,  under  the  persuasion, 
that  if  the  clause  should  be  sutiered  to  stand,  the  Yv  est  would  never  get  a  fair  ratio  of 
apportionment;  and  contending,  t]iat  in  a  Republican  Government  a  majority  ought 
to  govern. 

Mr.  Madison  opposed  this  motion — its  effect  would  be  to  give  the  State  a  legislative 
Constitution,  instead  of  a  constitutional  Legislature.  He  thought,  with  this  require- 
ment of  a  majority  of  two-thirds,  the  Legislature  might  be  safely  entrusted  with  the 
task  of  apportionment. 

Mr.  Scott  said,  he  had  been  willing  to  let  the  subject  rest;  but,  if  it  was  to  be  re- 
ferred to  the  Legislature  to  decide  at  all,  it  ought  to  be  left  to  a  majority  simply.  Its 
introduction  into  that  body  would  only  cause  a  perpetual  struggle,  which  would  be 
aggravated  by  requiring  two-thirds.    He  was  for  the  amendment. 

Mr.  Trezvant  asked  for  the  ayes  and  noes  on  Mr.  Chapman's  amendment,  and  they 
were  so  taken  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Cofiman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beime, 
Smith,  3Iiller,  Baxter,  Fitzhugh,  Osborne,  Powell,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Do- 
naldson, Boyd,  George,  M'^vlillan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chap- 
man, Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Suimners,  See,  Morgan,  Campbell  of 
Brooke,  Wilson,  Scott,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders.  Cabell,  Stuart  and 
Massie— 39. 

JVocs — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Brodaax,  Dromcroole,  Alexander,  Goode,  I^Iarshall  of  Richmond,  Tyler, 
Nicholas.  Ciopton,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne, 
Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Zdadison,  Stanard,  Holladay, 
Mercer,  Henderson,  CooTie,  Griggs,  Pendleton,  P.oane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  INIorris, 
Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Green,  raarshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Pren- 
tis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin.  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Bates,  Xeale, 
Rose,  Coalter,  Jo^mes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 55. 

So  the  amendment  to  the  amendment  was  rejected. 

Mr.  Madison,  in  consequence  of  a  remark  from  Mr.  Cooke,  modified  his  amend- 
ment, by  restoring  the  words  "  throughout  the  Commonwealth,"  which  he  had  stricken 
out. 

IVIr.  Ciopton  ofi'ered  the  following,  as  an  amendment  to  that  of  Mr.  Madison,  viz: 
And  whenever  the  Legislature  shall  make  a  re-apportionment  of  representation 
throughout  the  Commonwealth,  they  shall  cause  a  re-assessment  of  the  lands  to  be 
taken  for  the  purposes  of  taxation." 

Mr.  jNIercer  was  apprehensive,  that  the  amendment  inight  be  so  interpreted,  that 
unless  there  was  a  re-apportionment  of  representation,  there  would  be  no  re-assess- 
ment of  lands.  From  the  injustice  now  experienced  on  that  subject,  he  was  induced 
to  hope  that  a  provision  would  be  introduced,  making  it  imperative  upon  the  Legis- 
lature to  have  a  re-assessment  at  all  events. 

Mr.  Ciopton  said,  he  had  no  objection  to  the  introduction  of  such  a  clause,  if  it  was 
prepared. 

Mr.  Mercer  thought  the  other  clause  of  the  original  resolution,  requiring  two-tliirds 
of  the  Legislature  to  consent  to  a  re-apportionraent,  was  still  more  exceptionable. 

Mr.  Stanard  thought  the  amendment  required  to  be  rendered  more  definite.  There 
were  two  species  of  apportionment  v.iiich  might  be  referred  to — one  among  the  great 
districts,  and  the  other  within  each  of  them.  He  presumed  the  amendment  was  in- 
tended to  refer  to  the  general  apportionment. 

The  Chair  read  the  amendment  again,  and  suggested  to  add  the  words  "  throughout 
the  Commonwealth." 

Mr.  Ciopton  accepted  this  as  a  modification. 

Mr.  Stanard  objected  to  the  amendment,  as  unnecessary.  It  was  not  to  be  be- 
lieved, that  when  the  inequalities  in  representation  should  become  so  great  as  to  re- 
quire a  re-apportionrnent,  the  Legislature  would  refuse  a  re-assessment  as  the  basis 
of  it. 

107 


850 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


The  question  was  put,  and  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Clopton  to  the  amendment  of 
Mr.  Madison,  was  rejected. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke,  while  he  cordially  assented  to  the  suggestion  of  the  vene- 
rable gentleman  frozn  Orange,  that  no  Constitution  could  be  agreeable  to  the  people, 
which  did  not  contain  a  plan  for  the  future  apportionment  of  representation,  was  sorry 
that  he  could  not  view  the  rule  he  had  proposed,  as,  any  alleviation  of  the  difficulty. 
He  could  not  conceive  any  change  in  the  condition  of  the  Commonwealth,  that  would 
bring  such  a  rule  into  any  beneficial  eliect.  There  was  no  hope  of  getting  two-thirds 
of  the  Legislature  to  assent  to  any  equitable  principle  of  apportionment  whatever. 

Such  a  proposition  would  be  of  no  value  in  any  State  in  the  Union.  The  experi- 
ment had  been  made  in  Kentucky,  as  to  the  removal  of  the  Seat  of  Government — 
and  the  vain  efforts  to  get  two-thirds  to  assent,  has  cost  ih^  State  more  than  a  Con- 
vention would  have  done. 

He  then  moved  the  following  amendment: 

"  The  General  Assembly  shall  have  power,  in  the  year  1841,  and  every  years 
thereafter,  to  apportion  the  representation  in  both  Houses  of  that  body,  so  that  the 
number  of  Delegates  in  each  of  the  four  grand  districts,  shall  bear  the  same  propor- 
tion to  the  Avhole  population  of  each  district,  which  the  present  apportionment  bears 
to  the  whole  population  of  each  district,  as  shall  be  ascertained  by  tlie  next  census." 

Mr.  C.  said,  it  must  at  once  strike  every  gentleman  that  this  amendment  embraced 
a  principle  which  had  never  yet  been  submitted  as  a  rule  of  apportionment.  It  had 
all  to  recommend  it  which  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  could  claim  :  if 
there  was  any  principle  in  that  amendment,  this  went  to  perpetuate  it ;  and  if  the  prin- 
ciple was  just  now,  it  must  be  so  ten,  twenty,  thirty  years  hence,  and  in  all  futurity. 
It  went  to  give  the  same  meai^ure  of  power  in  proportion  to  the  same  population,  as  was 
proposed  by  the  plan  of  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle,  it  was  disadvantageous  to 
the  West,  as  it  went  to  sacrifice  all  the  gain  they  had  obtained  in  population  since  the 
Census  of  1820  :  and  whatever  disadvantage  was  experienced  by  the  West,  from  that 
gentleman's  plan,  the  same  was  inflicted  by  this.    But  he  offered  it  in  a  spirit  of  com- 

fromise.  The  rule  was  easy  of  application  :  it  was  a  question  in  the  Ptule  of  Three  : 
f  180,000,  the  population  of  the  West  at  present,  gave  31  Delegates  to  the  "Western 
district,  what  would  the  population  of  that  district  in  1841  give  ?  and  so  in  1851:  and 
every  ten  years  thereafter. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  the  object  sought  by  the  amendment,  was  already  provided  for  by 
the  plan  of  Mr.  Cooke,  with  this  only  difference,  that  the  latter  plan  contained  a  limi- 
tation as  to  the  number  of  the  House  of  Delegates  and  of  the  Senate.  The  only  ef- 
fect in  which  this  amendment  would  differ  from  that  gentleman's  was,  in  enlarging  the 
number  of  both  Houses  :  a  consequence  to  which  he  was  opposed. 

One  observation  as  to  the  amendment  of  the  venerable  gentleman  from  Orange: 
it  provided  power  in  the  Legislature  to  re-apportion  representation  throughout  the 
State ;  but  it  laid  down  no  rule  by  Vv'hich  they  were  to  be  governed  in  that  arrange- 
ment. This  caused  him  to  vote  against  the  proposal  of  the  gentleman  from  Giles, 
(Mr.  Chapman :)  he  could  not  agree  to  it,  unless  he  agreed  to  change  the  whole  foun- 
dation of  the  Government ;  for,  representation  constituted  that  foundation.  It  was  not 
to  be  doubted  that  in  1841,  there  would  be  a  majority  in  the  Legislature  holding  the 
Bame  sentiments  as  the  majority  in  this  body,  and  which  had  prevented  the  adoption 
of  the  white  basis  :  and  the  result  would  no  doubt  be  the  same.  It  was,  in  fact,  giving 
po\yer  to  the  Legislature  in  184 i ,  to  make  a  new  Government  for  Virginia.  Having 
divided  the  State  into  four  distinct  districts,  and  thus  presented  to  the  people  the  idea 
of  a  diversity  of  interests,  (which  he  did  not  believe  lo  exist,)  all  that  remained  was  to 
invite  three  of  these  divisions  to  unite  in  oppressing  the  fourth,  and  the  Constitution 
was  then  in  their  power. 

Mr.  Fitzhugh  said,  his  colleague  was  certainly  mistaken  in  his  view  of  the  proposi- 
tion :  It  was  totally  different  from  that  offered  by  Mr.  Cocke.  It  was  the  only  propo- 
sition which  had  yet  been  brought  forward,  which  proposed  an  equal  and  just  rule  for 
future  apportionment ;  and  it  should  receive  his  decided  support.  Suppose  one  of  the 
great  districts  increased  in  population  greatly,  while  another  should  not ;  this  rule 
went  to  give  to  that  which  increased,  an  enlarged  number  of  representatives.  His 
objection  to  the  plan  of  Mr.  Cooke  was,  that  it  retained  the  relative  proportions  now 
established  between  the  great  divisions  of  the  State  unchangeably  and  forever.  But 
this  amendment  avoided  that  injustice,  and  should  have  his  support. 

Mr.  Mercer  said,  if  he  had  been  mistaken,  he  had  committed  a  great  error :  but  he 
was  not  yet  convinced  of  the  fact.  Mr.  M.  here  went  into  an  analysis  of  the  amend- 
ment,  and  insisted  in  his  former  view. 

Mr.  Campbell  said,  that  Mr.  Fitzhugh  had  understood  his  proposition  correctly.  He 
here  went  into  an  aritlimetical  illustration  of  its  effect,  on  the  principle  of  the  rule  of 
proportion.  The  only  objection  v/hich  had  any  weight  was,  that  it  might  increase  the 
number  of  the  House  of  Delegates  too  much  :  but  then  whilst  one  division  gained, 
another  might  lose.  But  he  had  no  objection  to  have  the  present  number  proposed 
ror  that  HousOy  fixed  as  a  maximum. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CON\"ENTION. 


851 


Mr.  Claiborne  called  for  a  division  of  the  question,  on  striking  out  and  inserting  the 
amendment. 

Mr.  Campbell  remonstrated  against  precipitancy,  and  asked  the  House  to  give  its 
attention  to  the  plan,  that'ts  merits,  if  it  had  any,  might  be  candidly  weighed.  All 
the  merits  of  Mr.  Gordon's  had  consisted  mainly  in  its  steering  a  middle  course,  and 
producing  a  drawn  battle  between  the  contending  parties  :  if  that  were  any  merit,  Mr. 
C's  plan  had  the  same.  He  insisted  on  the  necessity  of  some  rule  for  future  appor- 
tionment, and  asked  what  would  have  become  of  the  Government  of  the  United  States 
if  the  Federal  Constitution  had  contained  no  provision  on  this  subject.? 

Mr.  Joynes  said,  he  had  been  anxious  for  some  rule  on  the  subject;  but  that  pre- 
sented by  the  present  amendment  was  the  worst,  and  the  most  injurious  to  the  inter- 
ests of  Eastern  Virginia,  of  any  that  had  yet  been  thought  of.  The  representation 
now  fixed  by  the  plan  of  Mr.  Gordon,  gave  to  the  Trans- Alleghany  district  one  repre- 
sentative for  about  every  five  thousand  of  the  inhabitants,  while  in  the  tide-water  dis- 
trict the  rule  gave  them  about  one  for  every  ten  thousand,  and  this  was  to  be  the  ratio 
forever.  According  to  that  rule  those  below  the  tide-water  could  never  get  another 
representative  till  their  population  increased  ten  thousand  above  this  present  number ; 
whereas  the  West  got  a  new  Delegate  for  every  increase  of  five  thousand,  while  at 
the  same. time  the  one  district  was  nearly  stationary,  and  the  other  growing  with  ra- 
pidity. He  had  much  ratlier  have  the  white  basis  :  it  would  be  far  less  disadvantage- 
ous to  the  East.  According  to  the  amendment,  the  proportion  between  the  great  dis- 
tricts would  not  remain  as  it  was  now  fixed  at  all :  only  the  same  ratio  within  each 
district  betv/een  the  population  and  representation. 

Mr.  Marshall  of  Richmond  said,  there  was  a  serious  objection  to  the  amendment: 
it  went  to  enlarge  indefinitely,  both  Houses  of  the  Legislature  :  that  must  be  its  neces- 
sary effect,  unless  some  restraming  clause  v/are  added  to  prevent  it.  But,  such  he  was 
well  assured  was  not  the  sense  of  the  Convention  :  they  wished  rather  to  diminish  the 
Legislature,  and  their  objection  to  it  had  been  stated  by  the  gentleman  from  Accoraac, 
(Mr.  Joynes.)  The  apportionment  at  present  agreed  on  was  the  white  basis  as  it  stood 
in  1820.  They  had  all  agreed  that  the  black  population  should  not  be  represented  in 
the  same  manner  as  the  v/hite  :  and  the  present  schexiie  pursued  that  principle.  But 
the  amendment  said  the  same  proportion  should  be  observed,  whether  the  population 
were  white  or  black  :  suppose  that  the  East  should  get  a  majority  of  white  population  ; 
by  this  plan  they  would  not  get  a  proportional  izicrease  of  representation.  The  amend- 
ment would  not  benefit  the  Eastern  part  of  the  State  at  all ;  all  its  benefits  would  be 
confined  to  the  West.  It  was  unjust  to  adopt  a  principle  w^hich  would  not  apply  itself 
to  a  change  of  the  population  from  black  to  white,  when  the  general  basis  of  the  whole 
plan  was  in  fact  white  population.  In  the  middle  country  it  was  possible,  and  pro- 
bable, that  the  character  of  the  population  would  be  greatly  changed  :  there  were  none 
who  could  consider  the  condition,  especially  of  the  western  part  of  the  middle  district, 
and  not  perceive  this  to  be  true ;  but  the  ratio  of  representation  would  not  change 
with  it. 

Mr.  Mercer  proposed  to  the  gentleman  from  Brooke  to  modify  his  resolution,  so  as 
to  read  : 

The  General  Assembly  shall  have  power,  in  the  year  1841,  and  every 
years  thereafter,  to  apportion  the  representation  in  both  Houses,  so  that  the  number  of 
Delegates  in  each  of  the  four  grand  districts,  shall  bear  the  same  proportion  to  the 
whole  white  population  of  each  district  respectively,  which  the  present  apportionment 
establishes  in  such  district,  the  ratio  of  the  present  apportionment  to  be  ascertained 
by  the  next  Census  }  provided  that  the  House  of  Delegates  shall  never  exceed  in  num- 
ber one  hundred  and  fifty,  nor  the  Senate  thirty-six  members." 
Mr.  Campbell  accepted  the  modifi-cation. 

The  question  was  then  put  on  striking  out,  in  order  to  insert  Mr.  Campbell's  amend- 
ment, and  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

.4ye5 — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coflfman,  Harrison,  Wilhamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy,  Moore, 
Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Pow- 
ell, Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George, 
M'Mlllan°  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby, 
Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Claytor, 
Saunders,  Cabell  and  Stuart — 42. 

,Yoe5— Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax.  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond,  Tyler, 
Nicholas.  Clopton,  Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart, 
Randolph,  Leio-h  of  Hahfax.  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane, 
Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris, 'Carnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Marshall 
of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Branch, 
Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter, 
Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 53. 

So  the  House  refused  to  strike  out,  and  Mr.  Campbell's  amendment  fell  of  course. 


852 


DEBATES   OF   THE   CON  VEiSTION. 


Mr.  Johnson  said,  he  had  misunderstood  the  question,  not  having  attended  to  the 
modification  as  to  wliite  population.  In  its  former  step  lie  thought  the  amendment 
claimed  too  much  for  the  West ;  as  modified,  he  thought  it  was  in  the  other  extreme : 
he,  therefore,  was  willing  his  vote  should  remain  unchanged. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Washington,  now  moved  to  amend  Mr.  Madison's  amendment, 
by  striking  out two-thirds"  and  substituting    a  majority  of  the  Legislature." 

The  Chair  said,  that  motion  had  already  been  made  and  rejected  :  and  could  not, 
therefore,  be  put  again. 

Mr.  Campbell  said,  he  had  intended  to  add  a  proviso,  that  the  new  apportionment 
aoreed  to  by  the  Legislature  should  be  adopted  b}^  a  majority  of  the  whole  number 
of  qualified  voters," 

Mr.  Mercer  approved  the  proviso,  and  moved  a  re-consideration  of  the  vote  on 
striking  out  two-thirds." 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Washington  supported  his  amendment  by  a  few  remarks.  He 
had  always  thought  that  in  such  a  Government  as  ours,  the  great  point  aimed  at,  was 
to  execute  the  public  will.  But  soine  gentlemen  seemed  to  apprehend  great  danger 
from  bringing  the  question  of  apportionment  too  frequently  beibre  the  people.  For 
his  part,  he  thought  once  in  ten  years  was  none  too  often. 

Both  branches  of  the  Legislature,  it  would  be  observed,  must  concur  in  any  altera- 
tion to  be  proposed  ;  and  then,  (if  his  plan  should  prevail)  a  majority  of  all  the  qualified 
voters  in  the  State  must  agree  to  it  before  it  could  go  into  effect.  Not  a  single  ques- 
tion could  be  settled  without  this  concurrence  :  and  all  those  who  did  not  vote  were 
to  be  counted  as  against  the  measure.  Though  his  plan  might  not  meet  with  favour 
from  the  House,  yet  he  hoped  it  would  be  supported  by  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle, 
(Mr.  Gordon,)  as  that  gentleman  had  recently  told  the  House  that  his  opinions  as  to 
the  white  basis  had  undergone  no  change. 

Mr.  Gordon  replied  with  warmth,  and  complained  of  being  thus  singled  out,  and 
personally  called  on  for  his  concurrence  in  a  proposition  which  the  House  had  deci- 
dedly rejected,  and  to  which  he  was  himself  opposed. 

He  did  not  see  why  gentlemen  from  the  W^est  should  be  so  much  excited  in  rela- 
tion to  him  ;  his  plan  gave  them  more  power  than  they  could  otherwise  have  obtained  : 
they  might  have  had  the  Federal  number  thrust  upon  them  or  the  mixed  basis,  but  for 
his  compromise.  He  would  inform  gentlemen  that  he  should  vote  according  to  the 
dictates  of  his  own  conscience,  regardless  of  their  opinions  as  to  his  consistency. 

He  had  long  ago  said,  that  if  a  plan  could  not  receive  the  support  of  a  respectable  ma- 
jority of  the  House,  he  should  not  throw  himself  into  the  scale  to  make  it  preponde- 
rate by  his  vote.  He  believed  the  sovereignty  to  reside  in  the  people,  and  not  just 
where  this  Convention  should  choose  to  place  it.  He  went  for  a  Constitution.  He 
wished  and  hoped  to  see  one  adopted  by  the  Convention  and  by  the  people  of  Vir- 
ginia. To  those  who  claimed  to  be  reformers  (and  he  had  himself  been  one  of  thera) 
he  said,  that  the''exhibitions  made  on  that  floor  had  effectually  cured  him  of  all  desire 
to  see  a  Convention  again.  He  came  there  resolved  to  advance  the  cause  of  popular 
rights  :  and  what  had  he  found  ?  That  all  were  engaged  in  a  violent  struggle  to  pro- 
mote the  interests  of  their  own  section  of  country,  and  in  no  other  design.  His  phi- 
lanthropic views  of  men  and  of  theoretical  liberty  had  received  a  lesson  which  he 
should  not  soon  forget.  He  had  seen  how  easily  principles  could  be  forgotten,  as  soon 
as  they  were  found  to  come  in  conflict  with  particular  interests.  He  had  hoped  to 
see  the  Convention  agree  upon  something.  He  had  offered  his  compromise,  because 
he  saw  the  contest  was  maddening  the  Convention  and  maddening  the  country. 
There  was  manifestly  a  great  division  of  interests  and  feehngs  as  to  a  delicate  but 
vital  question  in  the  State.  If  gentlemen  were  content  to  make  the  interests  he  re- 
spected, their  sport,  by  taunting  him,  let  gentlemen  beware.  He  was  not  to  be  made 
their  sport.  The  consistency  of  his  opinions  w^as  a  matter  not  to  be  sported  Avith. 
He  should  give  such  a  vote  as  he  thought  right,  very  reckless  of  the  opinions  of  any. 

Mr.  Campbell  said  he  had  meant  to  throw  out  no  taunts  against  the  gentleman. 
He  had  no  unkind  feelings  toward  him;  indeed  he  knew  little  about  him.  But  he 
vvished  to  understand  what  the  gentleman  m.eant  exactly  by  telhng  gentlemen  to 
"  beware."  If  that  was  intended  as  a  personal  threat,  he  disregarded  it.  If  it  was 
intended  to  refer  to  party  or  political  considerations,  he  equally  disregarded  it.  He 
too  had  a  choice  ;  and  if  principles  were  adopted  so  entirely  contrary  to  all  his  notions 
of  right,  he  preferred  remaining  as  he  was :  he  would  go  for  the  old  Constitution  with 
the  gentleman  from  Charlotte,  [Mr.  R.  ''much  obhged  to  the  gentleman!"]  unless 
some  change  should  be  made  which  he  approved  more  than  the  gentleman's  com- 
promise. 

Mr.  C.  said,  he  believed  the  plan  he  proposed  had  never  been  before  the  Conven- 
tion before.  It  was,  that  any  plan  for  future  apportionment  should  be  submitted  to 
those  who  were  the  real  sovereigns  of  the  land,  to  all  who  could  make  their  sove- 
reignty telt  by  exercising  it.  It  was  true,  the  sovereignty  resided  in  the  people,  but 
how  did  It  operate  when  it  could  not  be  put  in  exercise  ?    It  was  by  votes  that  the 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTIOH, 


853 


people  made  their  sovereignty  known  and  felt.  He  was  for  submitting  future  appor- 
tionment to  this  test.  Did  the  gentleman  object  to  this .'  '\^'as  this  the  distinction 
he  took  ?  Did  he  say  that  it  v.'as  not  his  doctrine  ?  that  the  people  should  make 
their  will  known  by  their  votes.'  If  so,  he  was  welcome  to  his  distinction.  He  had 
meant  n©  taunt.  But  if  that  gentleman  was  a  disciple  of  the  man  who  had  once 
given  such  distinction  to  his  district,  (Mr.  JeiTerson)  he  should  have  thought  he 
would  have  been  in  favour  of  such  a  plan.  All  he  asked  for  his  amendment,  was  a 
candid  consideration  of  its  merits,  and  that  he  knew  the  House  would  give. 

Mr.  Gordon  said,  he  might,  perhaps,  have  received  the  gentleman's  remarks  with 
more  v^armth  than  the  gentleman  had  intended.  He  had  not  meant  to  use  any  per- 
sonal threat,  or  any  political  one.  Mr.  G.  here  went  into  a  review  of  what  had  taken 
place  in  the  Convention,  and  argued  to  shew,  that  his  amendment  had  been  marked 
with  no  inconsistency,  and  concluded  by  expressing  his  hope  that  he  might  be  let 
alone,  and  suffered  to  vote  in  obscurity,  without  being  thus  compelled  to  present  him- 
self and  his  course  before  the  Convention. 

-Mr.  Leigh  wished  to  know,  if  the  question  on  re-consideration  was  to  be  made  a 
test  question  as  to  the  amendment  itself.'^ 

Mr.  Campbell  e^ipressed  liis  willingness  that  it  should  be  so  considered. 

Mr.  Mercer  made  some  remarks  which  were  inaudible  from  the  confusion  in  the 
House.  When  he  began  to  be  heard,  he  was  saying  that  the  end  of  the  present  mo- 
tion was  the  accomplishment  of  wliat  the  venerable  gentleman  from  Orano-e  had  so 
much  at  heart,  the  securing  of  a  majority  in  favour  of  the  Constitution.  The  Con- 
vention having  organized  four  distinct  parties  in  the  State  with  notions  of  separate 
and  conflicting  interests,  if  provision  was  made  for  re-apportionment  in  future  with- 
out any  controul  over  the  action  of  the  Legislature,  they  would  expose  the  basis  it- 
self of  the  Government  to  be  changed. 

He  diffe.-ed  from  the  gentleman  from  Albemarle  as  to  its  producing  discontent. 
The  discontent  was  likely  to  grow  from  applying  a  fixed  rule  to  a  changing  state  of 
affairs.  This  amendment  went  to  check  the  operations  of  a  majority  of  the  Legisla- 
ture by  the  will  of  a  majority  of  the  voters  of  the  Commonwealth  :  and  in  that  he 
went  on  a  principle  already  sanctioned  ;  for  the  very  Constitution  they  v/ere  making 
v/as  by  law  to  be  submitted  to  that  very  ordeal.  It  was  to  be  judged  of  by  the  votes 
of  the  qualified  voters  for  the  most  numerous  branch  of  the  Assembly.  Without 
such  a  check  he  could  not  vote  to  leave  the  subject  of  apportionment  to  a  majority 
merely  of  the  Legislature.  A  bare  majority  might  be  in  favour  of  adopting  Federal 
numbers  as  a  basis  in  future. 

At  the  suggestion  of  Ivlr.  Stanard,  Mr.  Campbell  clianged  the  form  of  his  amend- 
ment, so  as  to  avoid  the  necessity  of  any  re-consideration,  by  adding  merely  a  proviso 
at  the  end  of  Mr.  ^Madison's  amendment. 

The  question  now  being  directly  on  the  adoption  of  this  amendment, 

Mr.  ZS'aylor  made  a  very  animated  address  to  the  Convention,  deprecating  the  idea 
that  the  people  must  be  thrown  into  a  state  of  agitation,  by  having  the  question  of 
representation  from  time  to  time  submitted  to  them.  He  scouted  the  idea  that  the  ut- 
most injustice  must  be  submitted  to,  and  things  left  to  take  their  downward  course,  as 
they  m.ight,  rather  than  disturb  the  people  and  run  the  risk  of  an  excitement.  W^ere  the 
people  not  to  be  trusted.'  Must  they  be  ''saved  from  themselves?"  W^exe  they 
"their  own  worst  enemies.'"  This  was  the  doctrine  of  the  Holy  Alliance,  not  of  a 
Republican  Assembly.  AVas  this  famous  compromise  to  be  such  an  anodyne  that  the 
people  were  to  sleep  under  it  to  all  time  Zvlust  they  never  be  awakened  to  adopt  any 
other  apportionment  than  that  now  fixed  upon  For  his  part,  he  had  rather  see 
symptoms  of  life  than  of  death  among  the  people.  He  had  no  faith  in  this  medicine. 
He  did  not  believe  it  w^as  such  a  catholicon,  as  would  cure  all  maladies  now,  and  pre- 
vent them  forever  hereafter.  He  contended  that  a  rule  of  re-apportionment  would 
prevent  the  real  agitations  that  must  ensue,  if  another  Convention  had  to  be  resorted 
to.  He  concluded  by  expressing  his  opposition  to  all  those  horrors  about  trusting  the 
people  with  their  own  affairs  :  he  believed  in  none  of  those  dangers  at  all. 

Mr.  Smith  asked  for  the  ayes  and  noes. 

ISIr.  Leigh  asked  that  the  question  should  be  divided. 

It  was,  accordingly,  first  put  on  striking  out ;  and  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as 

follows  : 

Aijes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffraan,  Harrison,  W^illiamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson, 
M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Sinith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Os- 
borne, Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson.  Boyd,  Pen- 
dleton, George,  M'Millani^ Campbell  of  W^ashington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Ma- 
thews, Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke, 
"Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford.  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell.  Stuart  and  Thompson — ib. 
^  JVocs — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond, 
Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart, 


854 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane, 
Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Marshall  of 
Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants, 
Gordon,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 50. 

So  the  Convention  refused  to  strike  out,  and  Mr.  Campbell's,  of  Washington, 
amendment  fell  of  course. 

The  question  then  recurred  on  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Madison,  and  was  decided 
by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond, 
Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne, 
Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay, 
Cooke,  Powell,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Garnett,  Bar- 
bour of  Culpeper,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby, 
Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Pleasants,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,.  Joynes, 
Bayly  and  Perrin — 50. 

Noes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffman,  Plarrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy,  Moore, 
Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Griggs,  Ma- 
son of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Byars, 
Morris,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Mor- 
gan, Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Scott,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Clay  tor,  Saunders, 
Cabell,  Stuart,  Gordon,  Thompson  and  Upshur — 45. 

So  Mr.  Madison's  amendment,  leaving  future  apportionment  to  two-thirds  of  the 
Legislature,  was  adopted. . 

Mr.  Cooke  now  moved  to  amend  the  fourth  article  of  the  draughted  Constitution, 
by  striking  out  "  1841,"  and  inserting  "  1833,"  so  as  to  reconcile  the  people  to  the  adop- 
tion of  the  Constitution,  by  holding  out  to  them  the  prospect  of  a  speedy  redress  of 
grievances.  He  was  aware  that  some  gentlemen  thought  their  constituents  had  been 
hardly  dealt  by,  nor  could  any  thing  else  be  looked  for  from  the  imperfect  lights  un- 
der which  the  Convention  had  "acted,  in  making  the  present  apportionment.  In  1833 
the  Legislature  would  have  all  the  benefit  of  the  Census  of  1830,  to  guide  them. 

The  Chair  said  it  was  not  strictly  in  order  to  consider  this  amendment,  as  the  fifth 
article  had  been  adopted. 

Mr.  Cooke  then  moved  to  re-consider  the  vote  on  reference  to  this  particular  sec- 
tion of  the  Constitution. 

Mr.  Henderson  said,  he  hoped  the  vote  on  re-consideration  would  be  taken  as  a 
test  vote  on  the  amendment. 

Mr.  Powell  concurred  in  this  desire,  and  expressed  his  purpose  of  voting  against 
the  amendment, 

Mr.  Claytor  understanding  the  remark  of  Mr.  Cooke  as  in  part  applying  to  him, 
enquired  if  he  could  suppose  that  this  amendment  would  remove  the  objections  of 
those  who  had  considered  their  constituents  as  injured  by  the  present  arrangement.'' 
The  appeal  was  to  be  to  a  Legislature  constituted  on  such  principles  as  must  throw 
them  into  a  minority,  and  they  were  to  appeal  to  a  majority  for  redress.  His  vote 
would  not  be  changed  by  this  additional  tub  to  the  whale,  after  the  other  tub  of  the 
two-thirds  majority.  He  went  for  substantials.  He  was  not  to  be  tantalized  by  being 
told — yes — your  grievances  shall  be  heard — and  very  soon:  but  before  a  packed  jury, 
prepared  already  with  a  verdict.  [Here  Mr.  Claytor  was  called  to  order  by  the 
Chair — and  apologized.] 

Mr.  Cooke  denied  that  the  amendment  was  any  tub  to  the  whale.  He  should  be 
pleased  to  get  the  gentleman's  vote  for  the  Constitution ;  but  whether  such  might  be 
the  eifect  of  the  amendment  or  not,  he  thought  it  valuable  in  itself,  and  that  it  ought 
to  be  adopted. 

The  question  was  then  put  on  re-considering,  and  th.e  Chair  made  the  votes  to  be 
Ayes  46,  Noes  46,  and  gave  the  casting  vote  in  the  negative  :  but  suggested  that  pos- 
sibly there  might  be  some  error  in  the  count;  whereupon, 

Mr.  Cooke  called  for  the  ayes  and  noes,  and  they  were  taken  as  follows  : 

Jlijcs — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax.  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Marshall  of  Richmond,  Williamson, 
Smith,  Miller,  F^andolph,  Leigli  of  Haliflix,  Logan,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay, 
Cooke,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Gar- 
nett, Mathews,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell, 
Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Saunders,  Townes,  Pleasants,  Gordon, 
Massie,  Bates,  Rose  and  Coalter — 43. 

JYbes — Messrs.  Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Baldwin, 
Johnson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Baxter,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne, 
Urquhart,  Venable,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason 
of  Frederick,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Byars,  Roane,  Cloyd,  Chapman, 
Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Morgan.  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson, 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


655 


Cla^-tor.  Branch.  Cabell,  Mardn.  Stuart,  ThorGpson,  Neale,  Jovnes,  Bavly.  Upshur 
and  Perrin — 51. 

So  i'  :r  C  :  .^vention  refused  to  re-consider  the  vote  by  which  the  £fm  article  of  the 
Con;:  :  '.\?..d  been  adopted. 

Mr.  Clopton  moved  tbe  following  amendrnent  to  the  fifteenth  article  : 

*•  And  a  Privj  Council,  or  Council  of  State.  The  Governor  shall  be  elected  bv 
joint  vote  of  the  two  Houses  of  the  General  Assemblv.  and  shai'  '  -  clEce  dur- 

ing the  terni  of  three  years,  to  commence  on  the  nrst  day  of  Ja::  s  ucceeding 

his  election,  or  on  such  other  day  as  may  from  time  to  time  1-  ed  by  law; 

and  he  shall  be  inehgible  to  that  oSce  for  three  years  next  after  his  term  of  service 
shall  have  expired.  The  Privy  Councilj  or  Council  of  State,  shall  consist  of  four 
members,  and  shall  be  elected  by  Joint  vote  of  the  two  Houses  of  the  General  As- 
sembly, for  the  term  of  four  years.  They  shall  annually  choose  out  of  Lheix  own 
members,  a  Lieutenant-Governor,  who.  in  case  of  the  death,  inability,  or  necessarv 
absence  of  the  Gsvernor  from  the  Government,  shall  discharge  the  duties  of  Gover- 
nor. The  Governor  shall  be  President  of  the  CouncU.  and  shaE,  in  all  cases  of  divi- 
sion, have  the  casting  vote.  At  the  first  election,  the  two  Houses  of  the  General 
Assembly  shall,  by  joint  resolution,  divide  the  persons  elected  into  two  classes.  The 
seats  of  the  members  of  the  first  class  shall  be  vacated  at  the  end  of  the  second  year: 
and  of  those  of  the  second  class,  at  the  expiration  of  the  fourth  year  :  so  that  one- 
half  may  be  elected  every  second  year :  And  if  vacancies  happen  by  resignation  or 
otherwise,  they  shall  be  filled  by  joint  vote  of  the  two  Houses  of  the  General  Assem- 
bly. Two  members,  with  the  Governor  or  Lieutenant-Governor,  as  the  case  may  be, 
shall  be  sufficient  to  act :  and  their  advice  and  proceedings  shall  be  entered  of  record, 
and  signed  by  the  members  present,  (to  any  part  whereof  any  member  mav  enter  his 
dissent.)  to  be  laid  before  the  General  Assembly  when  called  for  by  them." 

He  accompanied  his  amendment  with  a  brief  explanation  to  shew  the  reason  why- 
he  had  changed  his  views  in  regard  to  a  Council ;  being  in  substance  this,  that  the 
election  of  Grovernor  was  now  transferred  from  the  people  to  the  Legislature.  After 
tills  change  a  controlling  council  was  in  his  view  highly  expedient.  The  article 
was  in  so  imperfect  a  state  that  some  amendment  must  be  made  to  it. 

The  question  being  put  on  Mr.  Ciopton's  amendment,  it  was  negatived  by  the  fol- 
lowing vote  : 

Aues — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander.  Gix)de,  Marshall  of  Richmond,  ZS:icho- 
las,  Oopton,  Johnson,  jMason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant.  Claiborne.  L^rquhart.  Ran- 
dolph, Leigh  of  Halifax.  Logan.  Venahle,  lladison,  Stanard.  Holladay,  Roane.  Tavlor 
of  Caroline,  .Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier, 
Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis.  Grigsby,  Branch.  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale, 
Rose,  Coalter,  L'pshur  and  Perrin— 4.5. 

.Yoes — Messrs.  Tyler,  Anderson.  Cowman.  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Cov, 
Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  .^liller,  Baxter.  Mercer.  FityJiugh.  Henderson.  Osborne,  Cooke, 
Powell,  Griggs,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd.  Pendleton,  George.  M'MiUan,  Campbell  of 
Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman.  J>Iathews,  Oglesby.  Duncan.  Laidley.  Sum- 
mers, See,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson.  Scott,  Campbell  of  Bedford, 
Claytor.  Saunders,  Townes.  Cabell,  IVIartin.  Stuart.  Thompson.  Joynes  and  Bayly — 49. 

Mr.  Summers  expressed  his  desire  that  the  proposition  he  had  some  days  since  of- 
fered in  relation  to  the  incorporation  of  Banks  be  taken  up. 

But  the  motion  for  consideration  was  opposed  by  jMr,  Powell,  and  negatived  bv 
ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ai/es — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President.)  Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander, 
Goode.  Anderson.  M'Coy,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mason  of  Southampton .  Trezvant, 
Claiborne,  Randolph,  Tenable,  Madison.  George.  M"3rLlIan.  Campbell  of  Washincr- 
ton.  Byars,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline.  Chapman.  Mathews.  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley, 
Summers.  See.  Moraran,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedlbrd,  Cabell, 
Martin,  Bayly  and  Upshur — 3S. 

yoes — Messrs.  Jones.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield.  Taylor  of  Chesterfield.  ^Marshall  of 
Richmond,  Tyler.  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Cofi'man.  Harrison,  Williamson.  Baldwin.  John- 
son. Moore.  Beirne,  L'rquhart,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Stanard.  Hoiladav.  fiercer, 
Fitzhugh.  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell.  Griggs,  ilason  of  Frederick.  Xav- 
lor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  Morris,  Garnett,  Cloyd.  Barbour  of  Culpeper, 
Scott.  Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  TazeweU,  Loyall.  Prentis,  Grigsby.  Ciavtor, 
Saunders,  Branch,  Townes,  Stuart.  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates, 
Neale.  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes  and  Perrin — 57. 

Mr.  Clopton  now  ofie'red  the  following  amendment,  which  he  accompanied  bv  a 
few  explanatory  remarks  : 

•■  There  shall  be  a  Council  of  State,  to  consist  of  three  members,  any  one  or  more 
of  whom  may  act.  They  shall  be  elected  by  joint  vote  of  both  Houses"  of  the  Gene- 
ral Assembly,  and  remain  in  office  three  years.    But  of  those  first  elected,  one,  to  be 


856 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


designated  by  lot,  shall  remain  in  office  for  one  year  only,  and  one  other,  to  be  desig- 
nated in  like  manner,  shall  remain  in  office  for  two  years  only.  Vacancies  occurring 
by  expiration  of  the  term  of  service,  or  otherwise,  shall  be  supplied  by  elections  made 
in  like  manner.  The  Governor  shall,  before  he  exercises  any  discretionary  power 
conferred  on  him  by  the  Constitution  and  laws,  require  the  advice  of  the  Council  of 
State  which  advice  shall  be  registered  in  books  kept  for  that  purpose,  signed  by  the 
members  present  and  consenting  thereto,  and  laid  before  the  General  Assembly  when 
called  for  by  them.  The  Council  shall  appoint  their  own  clerk,  who  shall  take  an 
oath  to  keep  secret  such  matters  as  he  shall  be  ordered  by  the  Board  to  conceal.  The 
Senior  Councillor  shall  be  Lieutenant-Governor,  and  in  case  of  the  death,  resignation, 
inability  or  absence  of  the  Governor  from  the  seat  of  Government,  shall  act  as 
Governor." 

Mr.  Stanard  thought  it  better  to  put  the  question  in  a  naked  form  as  to  whether 
there  should  be  any  Council  at  all,  and  he  proposed  an  amendment  to  try  that  ques- 
tion, if  Mr.  Clopton  would  withdraw  his. 

Mr.  Powell  opposed  it  as  tending  to  a  waste  of  time. 

Mr.  Leigh  advocated  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Clopton  with  much  earnestness  and 
at  considerable  length,  urging  a  summary  of  arguments  he  had  formerly  so  repeatedly 
and  in  so  expanded  a  forrn  presented  to  the  Committee  of  the  Whole  and  to  the  Con- 
vention on  this  subject. 

Mr.  Clopton  objected  to  withdrawing  his  amendment,  not  believing  any  advantage 
would  be  gained  by  taking  the  naked  question.  The  House  had  rejected  a  control- 
ling Council ;  there  remained  only  an  advisory  one  to  be  proposed  :  if  that  were  re- 
jected, the  question  would  be  settled. 

Mr.  Coalter  urged  the  value  and  necessity  of  a  Council  in  time  of  war,  and  referred 
to  the  history  of  the  last  war  in  confirmation  of  his  position. 

The  question  on  Mr.  Clopton's  amendment  was  then  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as 
follows : 

Jlyes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond,  Ty- 
ler, Nicholas,  Clopton,  Johnson,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urqu- 
hart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay, 
Cooke,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott, 
Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Townes, 
Martin,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Upshur 
and  Perrin — 51. 

J^oes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  M'Coy,  Moore, 
Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Powell, 
Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Mil- 
lan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan, 
Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford, 
Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Stuart,  Thompson  and  Bayly — 44. 

So  the  amendment  for  an  advisory  Council  to  the  Governor  was  adopted. 

Mr.  Marshall  moved  to  amend  the  eighth  article  by  striking  out  the  words  "  ex- 
cept money  bills,  which  in  no  instance  shall  be  altered  by  the  Senate,  but  wholly  ap- 
proved or  rejected." 

Mr.  Marshall  said,  he  should  not  have  renewed  a  motion  which  had  been  rejected 
in  Committee  of  the  V/hole,  if  any  reasons  had  then  been  assigned  for  the  rejection 
of  it ;  nor  should  he  have  meddled  with  the  subject,  if  the  Committee,  appointed  to 
draught  the  Constitution,  had  had  this  subject  under  their  consideration ;  but  it  was 
not  among  the  amendments  agreed  to  in  the  House,  and  so  not  referred  to  that  Com- 
mittee. Lender  these  circumstances,  he  felt  it  his  duty  to  bring  the  subject  before  the 
Convention  He  never  could  conceive  the  reason  in  favour  of  this  part  of  the  old 
Constitution.  It  had  always  appeared  to  him  to  have  been  introduced  into  it,  from 
an  assimilation  of  the  Senate  to  the  British  House  of  Lords.  Nothing  was  more 
natural  when  we  were  just  leaving  a  Government  under  which  we  had  been  born, 
and  had  grown  up  in  high  respect  for  all  its  principles,  that  such  an  assimilation 
should  have  taken  place.  But  nothing  could  be  more  dissimilar  than  our  Senate,  and 
the  House  of  Lords  ;  which  was  a  paramount  body,  hereditary  in  its  structure,  sitting 
in  its  own  right,  and  naturally  apt  to  be  much  under  the  influence  of  the  Crown. 
The  rule  was  adopted  there,  because  it  might  othervv^ise  have  been  considered  as  a 
difficult  and  unpleasant  task  to  resist  in  the  lower  House,  an  amendment  proposed  by 
the  upper,  and  supposed  to  be  in  conformity  with  the  will  and  wishes  of  the  Crown. 
But  there  was  nothing  of  this  sort  in  Virginia.  The  members  of  the  Senate  were  as 
much  the  representatives  of  the  people  as  those  of  the  House  of  Delegates.  They 
were  elected  in  the  same  manner,  by  the  same  persons,  and  they  receive  the  same 
pay  as  members  of  the  other  House. 

[Here  Mr.  Coalter  interposed,  and  said  that  wisdom  lifted  up  her  voice  in  the 
streets,  but  was  not  heard.  The  Chair  called  the  House  to  order,  and  the  confusion 
in  some  degree  subsided.] 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


857 


Mr.  Marshall  resumed  :  He  could  see  no  essential  difference  between  them.  In  all 
respects  they  resembled  each  other.  The  reason  why  the  Legislature  was  divided 
into  two  branches  was,  that  one  might  exercise  a  supervision  over  the  acts  of  the 
other,  and  amend  its  acts  when  necessary.  And  to  this  end  a  mode  of  communica- 
tion was  established  by  the  Constitution,-  by  winch  one  of  those  bodies  communicated 
to  the  other  its  sentiments  respecting  the  acts  of  that  other  body.  This  was  intended 
to  be  the  result  of  having  two  Houses  of  Jjegislature.  But  this  cardinal  principle 
was  violated  by  this  clause,  which  refused  to  the  Senate  the  right  of  amending 
money  bills  sent  up  from  the  other  House.  It  was  an  abridgement  of  the  rights  of 
the  Senate.  No  reason  could  be  given  for  it.  The  regulation  was  perfectly  useless  : 
and  more ;  it  was  productive  of  a  positive  injury.  It  did  not  prevent  the  amendment 
of  money  bills  by  the  Senate,  but  forced  that  body  on  a  more  circuitous  and  time- 
losing  mode  of  effecting  the  object. 

The  Senate  rejected  a  bill,  which  they  wished  to  amend.  The  other  House  had 
no  official  communication  from  them,  of  such  a  wish;  but  on  such  private  intelli- 
gence as  they  might  obtain,  they  draughted  a  new  bill.  This  bill  might  not  embody 
all  the  amendments  the  Senate  wished  to  introduce  :  then  this  too  was  rejected,  and 
more  bills  were  draughted  ;  and  thus,  much  of  the  public  time  was  wasted — and  to 
what  purpose  ?  But  this  was  not  all.  The  Senate  and  the  House  might  disagree  as 
to  what  was  meant  by  a  money  bill.  He  had  known  three  or  four  days  to  be  con- 
sumed in  a  dispute  between  the  Houses  on  that  subject.  The  House  of  Delegates 
contended,  that  all  bills,  containing  appropriations  of  money,  w^ere  money  bills  ;  the 
Senate  denied  this,  and  considered  it  as  an  attempt  at  usurpation  by  the  other  House, 
to  bring  within  that  term,  any  but  bills  simply  for  revenue.  He  had  known  three  or 
four  bills  amended,  and  consequently  rejected,  on  this  ground,  until  at  length  the 
House  of  Delegates  had  confora:ied  the  bill  to  the  form  the  Senate  had  at  first  desired. 
The  rule,  therefore,  was  found  inconvenient  in  practice,  besides  being  wrong  in  prin- 
ciple. It  forced  the  Senate  on  a  clumsy,  bungling,  time-wasting  method  of  getting 
at  the  object;  but  did  not  operate  to  prevent  the  amendment,  which  it  forbade. 

The  question  was  taken  on  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Marshall,  and  decided  in  the 
affirmative  :  Ayes  49. 

So  the  amendment  was  adopted, 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Brooke,  now  suggested  various  grammatical  amendments  in  the 
draught  of  the  Constitution — all  which  were  successively  rejected. 

Mr.  Thompson  moved  the  following  amendment:  "  The  privilege  of  the  writ  of 
Habeas  Corpus,  shall  not  be  suspended  unless  iclien,  in  cases  of  rebellion  or  invasion, 
the  public  safety  may  require  its  suspension.''' 

At  the  suggestion  of  Mr.  Randolph,  he  struck  out  the  qualification  for  cases  of  ex- 
treme necessity  :  and  thus  modified,  the  amendment  was  agreed  to :  Ajes  61. 

Mr.  Green  moved  the  following,  to  be  inserted  after  the  ninth  article  :  "  The  whole 
number  of  members,  to  which  the  State  ma}^  at  anj^  time  be  entitled,  in  the  House 
of  Representatives  of  the  United  States,  shall  be  apportioned  as  nearly  as  may  be 
amongst  the  several  counties,  cities,  boroughs  and  towns  of  the  State,  according  to 
their  respective  numbers,  which  shall  be  determined,  by  adding  to  the  whole  number 
of  free  persons,  including  those  bound  to  service  for  a  term  of  years,  and  excluding 
Indians  not  taxed,  three-fifths  of  all  other  persons." 

Mr.  Summers  explained  the  reasons  why  he  should  vote  against  the  amendment : 
not  that  he  was  opposed  to  its  principle,  but  because  it  was  unnecessary  and  impro- 
per, to  regulate  by  the  State  Constitution,  any  of  the  powers  or  duties  devolved  on 
the  Legislature  by  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States.  Under  that  authority,  the 
General  Assembly  had  for  forty  years  wisely  and  satisfactorily  exercised  the  discretion 
confided  to  them,  and  he  thought  it  could  not  be  abridged  or  restrained  by  any  act  of 
the  Convention.  If,  however,  this  obligation  did  not  exist,  he  would  not  consent  to 
consecrate  a  rule  (by  its  insertion  in  the  Constitution)  providing  for  the  apportionment 
of  representation  for  the  benefit  of  the  slave-holders,  wlfile  every  effort  to  secure  the 
rights  of  the  free  w^iite  population  in  the  State  Legislature,  was  so  obstinately  and 
successfully  resisted. 

Mr.  Wilson  said,  the  resolution  went  on  the  assumption  that  the  Constitution  of  the 
United  States  would  always  remain  as  it  was  now.  But  suppose  that  a  Constitutional 
majority  of  the  States  of  the  Union  slaould  unite  to  change  that  feature  of  the  Consti- 
tution, ought  not  the  State  Constitution  to  conform  itself  to  such  a  possibility  ?  Gen- 
tlemen were  not  satisfied  v/ith  having  gotten  the  Legislature  of  Virginia  on  their  side  : 
but  would  secure  that  rule  so  long  as  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States  was  to 
last.  They  seemed  much  moi-e  anxious  about  the  representation  of  slaves  than  of  the 
free  white  citizens  of  the  Commonwealth.  Where  was  now  their  dread  of  excite- 
ment ?  When  the  question  related  to  the  representation  of  white  men,  spectres  were 
instantly  raised,  but  they  had  now  all  suddenly  disappeared, 

108 


858 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  Randolph  now  rose : 

Mr.  President, — Is  it  possible  that  any  gentleman  can  believe  that  the  great  southern 
and  western  slave-holding  interests  of  the  United  States  will  ever  abando7i  this  provi- 
sion for  the  representation  of  three-fifths  of  their  slave  population  ?  Sir,  I  cannot  con- 
ceive of  a  greater  moral  impossibility.  And  if  we— the  people  of  Southern  Virginia — 
torn  and  divided  as  she  is  by  factions — marked  as  she  is  by  lines  which  divide  her  into 
two  distinct  people — distinct  in  their  feelings — distinct  in  possessing  different  and  an- 
tagonizing interests — if  we,  the  people  of  Virginia — shall  ever  surrender  this  question 
to  the  oth'er  States  of  this  Union — that  is,  to  Northern  and  Eastern  States — if  it  is  pos- 
sible that  we — who  constitute  the  barrier  of  the  Southern  interest — the  outwork  and 
the  bulwark  of  the  great  Southern  interest — shall — basely  I  was  going  to  say,  for  base 
it  will  be — shall  basely  abandon  that  provision — can  any  man  believe  that  all  the 
Southern  States — that  the  Carolinas,  that  Georgia,  that  Alabama,  that  Louisiana,  that 
Missouri  and  Tennessee,  and  all  the  others  which  I  need  not  name,  will  ever  aban- 
don it  ?  No  ;  they  never  will.  And  the  attempt — whenever  it  shall  be  made — to  touch 
this  bulwark,  will  be  but  sounding  the  tocsin  of  disunion.  The  Government  of  the 
United  States  could  not  last  a  day  after  such  an  attempt. 

Sir,  the  question  is — shall  the  apportionment  of  representation  which  the  Federal 
Constitution  secures  to  the  slave-holding  States,  be  the  apportionment  on  which  mem- 
bers of  Congress  shall  be  elected,  or  shall  it  not.?  Vv'hatever  may  be  the  opinion  en- 
tertained in  parts  of  the  State,  which  I  m.ust  call  alien  to  us,  and  forever  separated 
from  our  interests  and  feelings — there  is  but  one  opinion  on  this  side  the  North  Moun- 
tain, I  should  hope — certainly  on  this  side  the  Blue  Ridge.  Who  will  be  the  first  to 
touch  this  principle  ?  Who  will  dare  to  attack  it  ?  \Yho  will  venture  on  it?  I  should 
like  to  see  that  man — No — I  do  not  wish  to  see  him. 

Mr.  President :  There  is  nothing  which  so  alarms  me,  as  to  see  the  existence  of  the 
fanatical  spirit  on  this  subject  of  negro  slavery,  o.s  it  is  called,  growing  up  in  the  land. 
Sir,  we  have  preachers  on  that  subject  both  lay  and  clerical.  We  have  Apostles  of 
that  faith  among  the  laity  as  well  as  the  clergy.  And  if  it  had  so  happened — but  God 
in  his  mercy  averted  from  our  country  so  great  a  calamity — that  representation  had 
been  established  upon  the  basis  of  white  population — my  life  for  it — yes,  all  I  am 
worth — in  less  than  twenty  years,  you  would  have  seen  a  Bill  brought  into  the  House 
of  Burgesses  for  the  emancipation  of  every  slave  in  Virginia.  Sir,  I  would  as  soon 
trust  the  Quakers  of  Pennsylvania  as  the  Quakers  of  any  county  in  Virginia.  I  v/ould 
as  lief  trust  the  Fanatics  of  Free-masons  Hall,  London,  as  any  other  Fanatics — for 
Fanatics — like  madmen — are  on  a  par.  Yes,  Sir,  I  would  as  lief  trust  the  Fanatics  of 
Free-masons  Hall  as  the  Fanatics  in  Virginia.  Sir,  have  you  not  good  reason  to  be- 
lieve— nay,  do  you  not  know — that  petitions  v/ere  preparing  for  the  purpose  of  being 
presented  to  this  body  on  that  subject  ?  1  have  nothing  to  do  with  the  consciences  of 
men.  The  abolitionist  is  as  free  to  hold  his  opinions  as  I  am  to  hold  mine — I  do  not 
find  fault  with  him.  I  impute  no  demerit  to  him  for  them.  But  I  never  will  suffer 
him  to  put  a  torch  to  my  property,  that  he  may  slake  it  in  the  blood  of  all  that  are  dear 
to  me.  I  will  arrest  his  hand  if  I  can — by  reason  if  I  can — but  if  not,  by  force.  This 
is  the  whole  question — Shall  representation  be  on  the  terms  and  principles  which  the 
Constitution  of  the  United  States  requires  ?  If  we  say  no — to  what  does  the  rejection 
amount  ?  To  a  most  violent  presumption — almost  to  the  direct  affirmation — that  this 
part  of  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  Virginia  stands  ready  to  give  up.  That 
will  be  the  amount  of  it.  Sir,  if  the  motion  had"^  not  been  made,  the  case  would  be 
very  different.  But  the  motion  having  been  made,  the  abandonment  of  it  by  that  part 
of  Virginia  directly  interested  in  it,  and  in  the  preservation  of  that  property  for  them- 
selves, their  wives  and  their  children,  will  be  a  very  difi:erent  afiair.  If  we  say  no,  it 
will  be  an  abandonment  of  tlie  pi-inciple— it  will  be  a  declaration  to  all  the  world,  that 
we  are  ready  to  surrender  tlie  question  to  the  first  Peter  the  Hermit,  who  shall  cross 
the  mountains  with    Universal  Emancipation"  on  his  flag. 

I  hope  the  question  will  prevail,  not  only— but  that  it  will  prevail  by  an  overwhelm- 
ing majority.  I  declare  to  God  that  it  is  in  no  reference  to  the  question  of  represen- 
tation— a  question  which,  because  it  could  not  be  well  settled,  has  been  very  wisely 
sunk— that  I  speak  with  ardour  on  this  subject.  I  will  be  the  last  to  give  up  the  ques- 
tion :  and  Sir,  if  Virginia  could  be  base  and  recreant  enough  to  give  it  up.  she  would 
be  forced  on  by  the  bayonets  of  her  Southern  neighbours  :— Yes,  Sir,  she  would  be 
forced  to  fight — from  cowardice,  if  not  from  gallantry.  Sir,  she  can't  give  it  up.  If 
she  does,  she  lays  the  axe  at  once  to  the  root  of  all  the  slave  property  in  the  Common- 
wealth. 

Mr.  Summers  said,  he  rose  to  disclaim  the  imputation  of  being  an  abolitionist.  He 
was  none. 

[Mr.  Randolph  interposed.  Sir,  I  have  not  imputed  it  to  the  gentleman— I  had  no 
'^^Tvr  ^"^^  to  him— I  do  not  charge  him  with  any  such  thing.] 

Mr.  Summers  said,  he  had  risen,  not  only  to  make  the  disclaimer  to  which  he  had 
adverted,  (as  no  one  more  earnestly  deprecated  the  evils  which  might  arise  from  mis 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


859 


guided  zeal  on  this  subject  than  he  did.)  but  for  the  purpose  of  deprecating  the  pre- 
sent movement.  The  vote  on  this  question,  he  said,  might  give  rise  to  an  opinion 
that  a  part  of  the  State  was  wiihng  to  give  up  this  principle  of  representation  in  the 
General  Government ;  and  he  wished  to  avoid  such  deductions,  so  far  as  he  was  con- 
cerned. Hioiily  as  he  prized  the  Union,  he  would  CTive  it  up  ratlier  than  surrender 
this  indemnity  for  the  concession  made  by  Virginia  The  opposed  the  amendment  on 
the  ground  that  we  could  not  superadd  provisions  to  those  contained  in  the  Constitu- 
tion of  the  United  States  in  relation  to  this  subject,  and  that  for  the  reasons  which  he 
had  given,  he  would  not  if  this  objection  was  removed. 

Mr.  Coalter  said,  they  were  not  there  to  alter  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States. 
He  was  sworn  to  support  it,  and  until  it  was  altered  he  should  support  it  as  it  stood. 
He  must  vote  for  the  amendment. 

Mr.  Johnson  rose  to  suggest  to  the  mover  so  to  modify  the  amendment  as  to  make 
it  refer  to  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States  as  it  now  existed.  There  was  a  power 
by  which  it  might  be  changed,  however  little  probability  there  might  be  of  such  an 
event.  He  considered  the  question  as  one  of  little  consequence,  but  it  would  be  as 
well  to  remove  objections.  Would  it  not  be  better  to  add  a  proviso  to  cover  any  change 
in  the  Federal  Constitution 

Mr.  Cabell  said,  in  supporting  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  (Mr. 
Green.)  I  am  not  governed  by  any  threat,  or  the  fear  of  the  rod  held  in  terrorem  over 
my  head,  by  any  gentleman,  however  eminently  distinguished.  I  am  actuated  by  a 
regard  to  the  principles  which  have  hitherto,  and  will  hereafter  continue  to  guide  my 
public  conduct.  I  have  the  pleasure  to  see  on  this  floor,  several  gentlemen,  with 
whom  I  formerly  served  in  the  State  Legislature,  who  can  attest,  I  beheve  i  may 
safely  say,  the  firmness  and  decision  at  least,  with  which  I  recorded  my  vote  by  the 
side  of  their's  in  maintenance,  as  we  thought,  of  the  violated  rights'"  of  the  "  States." 
And  Sir,  be  assured,  that  in  any  question,  as  betvreen  the  United  States,  and  the  land 
of  my  nativit}- ,  ••'  if  I  do  not  put  my  foot  as  far  as  who  goes  farthest,'"  I  am  most  egre- 
giously  mistaken.  I  have  seen  with  regret,  in  the  progress  of  our  session,  various 
propositions  made  with  a  design  to  introduce  into  our  oro  anic  law,  several  of  the  fea- 
tures of  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States  ;  one  of  the  very  last  Constitutions  which 
I  would  select,  as  a  modd  fit  for  our  imitation.  The  support,  therefore,  which  I  owe 
to  this  proposition,  is  the  result  of  the  conscientious  convictions  of  my  own  judgment. 
I  am  gratified  hy  the  opportunity  now  afibrded,  to  place  the  question  involved  in  this 
proposition,  beyond  the  reach  of  controversy,  a  result  which  I  anticipate  from  engraft- 
ing it  into  the  Constitution.  It  has  been  said  that  a  gentle  hand  leads  an  elephant 
by  a  hair  3"  I  too,  may  be  led,  Sir,  but  I  must  be  pardoned  for  disclaiming  the  idea  of 
being  dragooned  into  measures.  The  position  I  occupy  in  relation  to  the  parties  by 
which  this  House  has  been  divided — the  support  I  have  conscientiously  given  to  the 
^'  White  Basis"" — one  which  had,  in  my  opinion,  no  connection  vrith  the  matter  in 
hand — a  question,  which  has  not  been,  nor  never  will  be  ••'  sunk,"  "  till  the  heart  of  man 
becomes  obdurate  from  corruption,  and  until  the  spirit  of  liberty  is  extinguished  in  this 
land — all  these  considerations  unite  to  render  it  a  duty  to  myself,  without  tlie  slightest 
intention  to  use  language  oiiensive  to  any  cthsr  gentleman,  to  make  tiis  explanation 
of  my  motives. 

The  question  was  now  taken,  and  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  13romgooie,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond, 
Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Johnson,  M"Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  ^Nlason  of  Southamp- 
ton, Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  J^eigia  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Tenable, 
Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  31crris,  Garnett,  Barbour 
of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby, 
Campbell  of  Bedford,  Clay  tor,  Saunders,  Branch,  Townes,  Cabell,  Martin,  Sfuait, 
Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates,  Xeale,  Rose,  Coalter.  Joynes.  Bayly, 
Upshur  and  Perrin — GO. 

jXoes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Y/illiamson,  Baldwin.  Smith,  Miller, 
Baxter,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  INIason  of 
Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of 
Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  3Iathev\S,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Sum- 
mers, See,  ISIorgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke  and  Wilson — So. 

So  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Green  was  adopted. 

Mr.  Chapman  moved  to  amend  the  twenty-sixth  section  by  addinof  as  follows  : 
"  Provided  the  said  Judges  continue  to  hold  such  Courts,  and  perform  such  duties 
as  shall  be  assigned  them  by  law ;  but  if  any  Judge  shall  fail  to  hold  any  such  Court, 
or  perforin  such  duties,  except  from  sickness  or  other  cause  beyond  his  controul.  a  de- 
duction may  be  made  from  his  salary.  And  such  deduction  shall  bear  the  same  pro- 
portion to  his  whole  salary,  that  the  services  unperformed  would  bear  to  the  whole 
services  required  to  be  performed,  and  the  Legislature  shall  make  provision  by  law  to 
ascertain  the  amouDt  ot  the  deduction  proper  to  be  made  in  any  such  case." 


860 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION, 


Mr.  Chapman  addressed  the  Convention  as  follows : 

Mr.  President, — This  proposition  is  not  offered  through  any  prejudice  or  excited 
feelings  which  I  have  towards  the  Judges.  So  far  from  it,  that  I  consider  it  the  most 
important  department  of  our  government.  It  is  this  department  which  protects  the 
weak  from  the  violence  of  the  strong,  the  simple  from  the  snares  of  the  crafty.  It  is 
this  department  which  protects  our  lives,  our  liberties,  our  properties,  and  our  repu- 
tations. Against  such  a  department  of  the  government,  I  could  not,  therefore,  en- 
tertain unjust  prejudices.  I  believe  there  is  no  member  of  the  Convention  who 
would  more  willingly  see  the  Judges  made  so  independent,  that  they  could  not  by 
public  clamor,  or  political  excitement,  be  induced  to  swerve  from  the  path  of  recti- 
tude. Yet  I  am  one  of  those  who  think  the  Judges  ought  to  be  made  much  more 
responsible  to  the  people  than  they  are  under  the  existing  Constitution.  I  should  be 
willing  to  provide  them  ample  salaries,  which  should  not  be  diminished  during  their 
continuance  in  office,  provided  they  performed  the  duties  assigned  to  them.  I  admit 
the  labourer  is  worthy  of  his  hire,  but  I  should  expect  a  quid  jyro  quo.  In  many  cases 
where  a  Judge  should  neglect  to  perform  the  duties  for  which  his  salary  was  intended 
to  pay  him,  I  think  it  v/ould  be  unjust  for  him  to  take  the  salary,  and  leave  the  bvisi- 
ness  of  the  people  undone.  I  have  at  this  place,  and  elsewhere,  heard  much  com- 
plaint against  the  Judges  on  the  principle  that  they  v/ould  receive  the  people's  mo- 
ney and  neglect  to  perform  the  people's  business ;  that  they  would  receive  their  sala- 
ries whether  they  perform  their  duties  or  not.  The  amendment  1  have  offered  will 
go  to  prevent  this  state  of  things.  Whenever  a  Judge  is  diligent  and  will  perform 
his  duties  as  far  as  he  is  able,  this  clause  of  the  Constitution  would  have  no  operation 
on  him.  All  that  I  would  ask  is,  that  he  should  perform  the  services  expected  from 
him,  and  then  receive  his  money,  but  not  to  receive  his  money  and  not  perform  ser- 
vices therefor,  which  would  be  in  his  power  to  perform.  If  a  Judge  should  be  sick 
and  unable  from  any  cause  beyond  his  control  to  perform  the  duties  required  of  him, 
the  proposed  amendment  still  allows  him  to  draw  his  ftill  salary;  but  if  a  Judge  should 
rise  in  the  morning  and  the  weather  being  disagreeable  or  wet,  and  he  should  deter- 
mine that  the  weather  is  rather  too  bad  to  turn  out,  and  if  on  the  same  day  hundreds 
should  be  attending  at  the  court-house  waiting  for  the  Judge  to  hold  his  court — I 
should  say  under  these  circumstances,  there  ought  to  be  a  deduction  from  his  salary. 
Or  if  a  Judge  was  to  start  to  court,  and  come  to  a  water-course  a  little  up,  which  by 
travelling  twenty  miles  he  could  go  round  the  head  of,  or  by  travelling  eight  or  ten 
miles  out  of  his  way,  he  could  get  to  a  place  where  he  might  cross  with  safety,  and 
when  many  others  had  crossed  in  order  to  get  to  court,  if  the  Judge  was  to  turn  back 
and  fail  to  hold  a  court,  1  would  say  that  a  deduction  from  his  salary  ought  to  be 
made  in  such  a  case.  I  would  state  another  case  :  Suppose  a  court  should  be  established 
to  consist  of  five  Judges,  any  three  of  whom  should  form  a  court  to  proceed  to  business, 
and  one  or  two  of  them  were  to  remain  at  home  attending  to  their  domestic  concerns, 
expecting  the  other  three  to  go  on  and  do  the  business.  I  should  think  in  such  a 
case,  there  ought  to  be  a  deduction  made  from  the  salary  of  those  Judges  who  re- 
mained at  home.  Or,  Sir,  take  our  Court  of  Appeals  as  an  example.  This  Court  is 
formed  of  five  Judges,  three  of  whom  may  form  a  court  to  do  business.  Suppose 
one  of  these  Judges  was  to  remain  at  home,  v^'^hen  it  was  in  his  power  to  attend,  and 
let  the  other  four  go  on  in  deciding  the  causes ;  the  court  take  up  two  causes,  depend- 
ing on  the  same  principle,  but  decided  in  the  Inferior  Courts  directly  in  opposition 
and  contradiction  of  each  other.  The  four  Judges  differ  in  opinion,  and  are  equally 
divided.  What  is  the  consequence.?  That  both  judgments  of  the  Inferior  Court 
stand  affirmed,  although  the  decisions  of  the  Inferior  Courts  were  directly  in  opposi- 
tion to  each  other.  In  examining  the  reports  of  the  decisions  of  the  Court  of  Appeals, 
I  have  frequently  observed,  that  where  causes  of  much  importance  had  been  decided, 
there  would  be  a  note  by  the  Reporter  that  such  a  Judge  was  absent,  and  such  another 
Judge  v/as  absent,  and  sometimes  it  is  stated  that  the  Judge  is  absent  from  indisposi- 
tion, distinguishing  it  from  the  other  case  where  it  would  seem  he  was  not  absent 
from  indisposition.  There  is  something  wrong  in  this;  the  fault  is  either  in  the  law 
or  the  administration  of  the  law,  and  let  it  proceed  from  what  cause  it  may,  the  peo- 
ple feel  the  evil  of  the  great  delay  in  deciding  causes  in  the  Court  of  Appeals,  and  if 
possible^  the  corrective  ought  to  be  applied.  I  think  if  we  advert  to  what  has  taken 
place  in  our  General  Court,  the  propriety  of  the  provisions  I  have  proposed  will  still 
be  more  manifest.  The  General  Courtis  required  to  meet  twice  a  year  in  Richmond 
to  hold  a  court  for  the  trial  of  Commonwealth's  business,  and  to  determine  on  points 
of  law  adjourned  from  the  Superior  Courts  for  novelty  and  difficulty,  and  certify 
their  opinion  to  the  Superior  Courts  of  Law.  Where  a  point  is  adjourned  in  a  crimi- 
nal case,  the  prisoner  remains  in  jail  until  the  decision  of  the  General  Court  is  certi- 
fied to  the  Superior  Court  of  Law :  the  law  requires  that  a  majority  of  all  the  Judges 
shall  be  present  to  decide  a  law  point  in  a  criminal  case,  where  the  life  of  a  human 
being  may  depend  on  the  decision.  We  know,  that  in  the  General  Court  it  has  fre- 
quently occurred  that  a  majority  of  the  Judges  have  failed  to  attend  the  court  as  re- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


861 


quired  by  law  ;  in  such  a  case,  the  prisoner  whose  case  is  adjourned  to  the  General 
Court,  must  lie  in  jail  until  it  may  be  convenient  for  a  majority  of  the  Judges  of  the 
General  Court  lo  attend  and  decide  the  case  adjourned  for  their  decision.  I  think  it 
has  seldom,  periiaos  it  never  has  happened,  that  a  majority  of  the  Judges  have  been 
sick  at  the  same  time,  and  unable  to  attend  the  General  Court  from  that  cause.  Tet, 
Mr.  President,  you  know  cases  have  happened,  that  in  consequence  of  a  majority  of 
the  Judges  of  the  General  Court  having  failed  to  attend,  prisoners  have  been  confined 
in  jail  from  term  to  term  without  a  trial :  you  know  in  the  case  of  Benjamin  Kee- 
wood,  who  was  indicted  for  the  murder  of  his  wife.  The  case  was  adjourned  to  the 
'  General  Court,  as  the  clerk  of  the  Superior  Court  of  Law,  where  the  indictment  was 
found  against  him,  had  omitted  to  make  any  entrv  on  the  record  of  the  findingr  such 
indictment,  which  omission  had  escaped  the  notice  of  the  Judge  until  after  the 
adjournment  of  the  court.  The  case  was  afterwards  adjourned  to  the  General 
Court,  to  decide  whether  an  indictment  had  been  found  against  him  for  murder, 
as  no  entry  appeared  on  the  record.  A  majority  of  the  Judges  of  the  General  Court 
failed  to  attend  at  the  first  term — at  the  next  term  the  case  was  continued,  and  ulti- 
mately the  General  Court  decided  that  no  indictment  had  been  found  against  him ; 
and  at  about  the  expiration  of  three  years  confinement  in  jail,  he  was  discharged,  it 
being  decided  that  as  he  had  been  confined  until  the  third  term  of  the  court  had 
passed,  that  he  could  not  be  indicted  afterwards,  and  tlie  murderer  of  his  wife  esca- 
ped the  punishment  due  to  his  crime.  I  tliink  the  amendment  proposed  would  be 
well  adapted  to  such  cases  as  I  have  mentioned.  If  the  law  makes  it  the  duty  of  the 
Judofes  of  the  General  Com-t  to  attend  and  hold  the  court,  I  ask  if  it  would  be  right 
for  tliem  to  draw  their  whole  salary,  in  the  same  way  as  if  they  had  performed  all  the 
duties  assigned  them  by  law  r 

Again;  I  am  strongly  inclined  to  think  whenever  this  Constitution  shall  go  into 
operation,  that  there  will  be  some  change  in  the  Circuit  Courts.  They  will  probably 
be  given  chancery  as  well  as  common  law  jurisdiction,  and,  perhaps,  two  assigned  to 
a  circuit.  I  would  wish  to  see  such  a  provision  in  the  Constitution,  as  would  have 
the  effect  of  preventing  the  Judges  from  making  arrangements  between  themselves 
that  you  shall  attend  that  court,  and  I  will  attend  this.  I  have  seen  something  of 
this,  when  the  old  District  Courts  were  in  operation.  Two  Judges  would  be  directed 
to  attend  several  District  Courts — for  instance,  at  Washington,  the  Sweet  Springs, 
and  perhaps  some  other  places.  It  frequently  happened  that  both  the  Judges  would 
attend  at  the  Washington  District  Court,  from  thence  they  were  to  come  to  the 
Sweet  Springs ;  but  unless  a  prisoner  should  be  there,  which  required  the  presence 
of  the  two  Judges  to  try  him,  it  frequently  occurred  that  the  court  at  the  Sweet 
Springs  would  be  holden  by  one  Judge  only,  the  other  Judge  at  that  time,  being  on 
his  wav  home,  or,  perhaps,  by  agreement  to  attend  at  some  other  court,  which  ought 
to  have  been  holden  by  two  Judges.  I  well  recollect  that  when  I  applied  for  license 
to  practice  law,  I  attended  at  the  Sweet  Springs  District  Court:  I  found  only  one 
Judffe  there,  and  was  informed  that  the  other  was  on  his  way  home.  After  being  ex- 
amined by  the  Judge  at  the  Sweet  Springs,  I  then  pursued  after  the  other  Judge,  and 
overtook  him  before  he  g-ot  home,  and  was  exas:iined  by  him.  Cases  of  this  kind 
have  induced  me  to  think,  that  such  a  provision  as  I  have  proposed,  ought  to  he  en- 
grafted in  the  Constitution  :  and  then  the  Judges  themselves  would  feel  it  their  in- 
terest to  attend  diligently  to  all  their  courts,  to  prevent  a  reduction  from  their  sala- 
ries. How,  Sir,  is  this  provision  to  operate.'  ISot  to  the  injury  of  a  diligent  and 
faithful  Judge,  for  he  would  always  draw  his  full  salary.  Such  a  provision  as  I  now 
propose,  if  it  had  been  in  the  old  Constitution,  I  know,  would  have  had  no  effect  on 
the  very  diligent  Judge,  who  presides  over  the  circuit  in  which  I  live.  That  Judge 
(I  mean  Judge  Allen.)  has  presided  in  that  circuit  for  eighteen  years.  Tliree  of  the 
courts  in  his  circuit  I  have  regularly  attended — and.  Sir,  in  the  course  of  the  eighteen 
vears  he  has  never  missed  a  single  court.  Yes.  Sir,  he  has  not  only  attended  court, 
but  at  9  o'clock  in  the  morning  he  woiild  go  on  the  bench,  and  never  leave  it  until  4 
in  the  evenincr,  unless  the  business  set  for  the  day  was  got  through  before  that  hour. 
Indeed,  Sir,  I  have  frequently  known  that  Judge  to  take  his  seat  at  9  o'clock  in  the 
mornincp,  and  remain  on  the  bench  until  9  o'clock  at  night,  without  any  intermission 
or  recess  of  the  court.  For  such  a  Judge  as  this,  the  amendment  proposed  holds  out 
no  terrors. 

I  have  also  attended  two  of  the  courts  of  an  adjoining  circuit,  where  Judge  John- 
ston presides.  Wythe,  one  of  the  counties,  I  have  attended  for  eighteen  years — 
Grayson,  not  so  long.  But.  during  the  time  I  have  attended  those  courts,  that  Judge 
has  "never  failed  toehold  his  courts,  except  last  spring,  in  the  county  of  Grayson. 
The  Judge  had  come  on  to  Wythe  court,  where  he  had  a  violent  attack  of  disease, 
and  was  unable  to  get  to  Grayson  court.  Consequently,  on  him,  the  amendment 
proposed  would  have  no  effect. 

But,  it  may  be  asked,  how  is  it  to  be  ascertained,  whether  a  Judge  has  failed  im- 
properly to  attend  his  courts  -    I  reply,  that  I  have  no  doubt  but  the  wisdom  of  the 


862 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Legislature  can  prescribe  the  mode  in  which  that  fact  can  be  correctly  ascertained. 
But,  I  do  not  think  the  task  would  be  a  difficult  one.  I  would  make  it  the  duty  of 
the  Clerk  of  the  Superior  Court  of  Law  to  certify  to  the  Auditor  of  Public  Accounts, 
that  the  Judge  had  failed  to  attend  his  court.  The  Clerk  should  certify  the  same  fact 
to  his  County  Court.  And  if  the  Judge,  by  his  own  affidavit,  or  the  affidavits  of 
others,  could  shew  to  the  County  Court,  that  he  was  prevented  by  sickness,  or  other 
cause  beyond  his  controul,  from  attending  his  court,  the  County  Court  should  certify- 
that  fact  to  the  Auditor;  in  which  case,  no  deduction  should  be  made  from  his  salary. 
But,  if  the  County  Court  should  be  of  opinion,  that  the  Judge  had  failed  to  shew 
good  cause  for  failing  to  attend  his  court,  they  should  certify  that  fact  to  the  Auditor, 
and  a  deduction  should  be  made  in  such  case.  A  similar  mode  might  be  adopted,  as 
it  respects  the  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals.  The  Legislature,  directing  that  tri- 
bunal, should  make  the  necessary  enquiry  into  the  failure  of  the  Judge  to  attend  his 
court. 

The  plan  I  have  proposed,  that  the  Judges  should  be  paid  according  to  the  services 
they  perform,  is  not  without  an  example.  Some  of  our  sister  States  have  adopted  a 
similar  principle.  For  instance,  in  the  State  of  North  Carohna,  the  Judges  receive 
a  certain  sum  for  each  court  they  may  hold ;  but,  if  they  fail  to  hold  a  court,  a  de- 
duction is  made  from  their  pay  for  such  failure.  It  may  be  said,  there  is  a  provision 
now  in  the  Constitution,  authorising  the  Legislature,  two-thirds  of  both  Houses  pre- 
sent concurring  therein,  to  remove  a  Judge  for  a  failure  to  do  his  duty,  or  for  ne- 
glecting to  do  the  business  assigned  to  him,  or  for  any  other  cause.  I  think  it  seldom 
or  ever  would  happen,  that  a  Judge  would  be  removed  for  these  omissions  to  perform 
his  duty  that  I  have  mentioned.  It  must  be  a  very  glaring  act  of  impropriety  in  a 
Judge  that  would  induce  two-thirds  of  the  Legislature  to  turn  him  out  of  office.  It 
would  be  a  very  painful  duty  for  any  Legislature  to  perform.  We  know  what  sym- 
pathy and  commiseration  would  be  excited  in  favour  of  a  Judge  who  had  spent  a 
large  portion  of  his  life-time  in  the  public  service.  Such  would  be  the  sympathy  and 
commiseration,  that  the  Legislature  would  always  be  inclined  to  overlook  small  fai- 
lures, rather  than  disgrace  a  Judge  by  removing  him  from  office.  I  therefore  think, 
that  the  clause  incorporated  into  the  Constitution,  authorising  two-thirds  of  the  Le- 
gislature to  remove  a  Judge,  would  not  have  the  desired  eftect,  and  accomplish  the 
end  I  have  in  view.  The  principle  I  contend  for,  is  a  principle  of  immutable  justice, 
that  no  man  shall  receive  something  for  nothing ;  that  no  man  shall  receive  his  pay 
without  performing  the  services  for  which  the  pay  was  to  be  given,  if  in  his  power 
to  perform  them.    This  would  be  doing  justice  to  the  people  and  justice  to  the  Judge. 

Mr.  President,  I  have  delayed  offering  this  amendment,  with  a  hope,  that  some 
other  gentleman  of  this  Convention,  much  abler  than  myself,  and  who  would  be  much 
better  calculated  to  do  justice  to  this  important  subject  than  I  am,  would  have  offered 
a  similar  proposition ;  but  no  gentleman  having  done  so,  I  felt  myself  constrained, 
from  a  sense  of  duty,  to  submit  this  proposition  of  amendment.  I  am  aware,  that 
many  gentlemen  differ  from  me  in  opinion  on  this  subject ;  but  believing  the  prin- 
ciple correct,  I  am  willing  that  the  world  shall  know  my  vote  on  this  subject.  I  shall, 
therefore,  ask  for  the  ayes  and  noes  on  this  question, 

Mr.  Coalter  said,  gentlemen  need  not  be  alarmed  :  they  would  have  no  Judges  to 
remove  after  this  day  :  he  meant  Judges,  not  men  filling  Judicial  stations. 

The  question  was  now  taken  by  ayes  and  noes  and  decided  as  follows : 

Ayes — Messrs.  George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Chapman, 
Oglesby,  Campbell  of  Bedford  and  Cabell — 8. 

JVb&s — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond,  Tyler, 
Nicholas,  Clopton,  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson, 
M'Coy ,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Clai- 
borne, Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard, 
Holladay,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Oisborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of 
Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris, 
Garnett,  Cloyd,  Mathews,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Morgan,  Campbell  of 
Brooke,  Wilson,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell, 
Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Stuart,  Plea- 
sants, Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Up= 
ehur  and  Perrin — 87. 

So  Mr.  Chapman's  amendment  was  rejected. 

Mr.  Cooke  now  moved  to  add  the  following  as  a  separate  article : 

"  I.  It  shall  be  the  duty  of  the  Executive  Department  of  the  existing  Government, 
so  soon  as  all  the  returns  required  by  the  twentieth  section  of  the  act  of  the  General 
Assembly,  entitled,  "  an  act  to  organize  a  Convention,"  shall  have  been  made,  if  it 
shall  appear  that  a  majority  of  all  the  votes  given  is  for  ratifying  this  amended  Con- 
stitution, forthwith  to  make  proclamation  of  the  fact. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION, 


863 


II.  And  it  shall  moreover  be  the  duty  of  the  Executive  Department,  in  and  b  j 
such  proclamation,  to  command  the  sheriiis  and  other  ofEcers,  directed  by  law  to  hold 
and  superintend  elections,  un^ler  the  penalty  of  dollars  for  failing  to  obey  such 

command,  to  open  polls  in  their  respective  counties,  cities,  towns  and  boroughs,  and 
in  the  election  districts  established  by  law  in  their  respective  counties,  on  the 

,  for  the  election  of  a  Delegate  or  Delegates,  as  the  case  may  be,  to 
represent  the  counties,  towns,  boroughs  and  districts,  respectively  mentioned  and 
described  in  the  third  article  of  this  Constitution,  and  of  a  Senator  to  represent  each 
of  the  Senatorial  districts  described  in  the  fourth  article. 

"  111.  So  soon  as  the  said  election  of  Delegates  and  Senators  shall  have  been  made, 
the  previously  existing  Senate  and  House  of  Delegates,  elected  under  the  old  Con- 
stitution, shall  cease  to  have  legal  and  constitutional  existence. 

"  IV.  Should  any  of  the  contingencies  herein  before  mentioned,  render  it  necessary 
or  proper  to  convene  a  General  Assembly,  after  such  election  shah  have  been  made, 
and  before  the  time  herein  after  appointed  for  the  first  regular  annual  meeting  of  the 
General  Assembly  under  this  amended  Constitution,  the  new  General  Assembly 
shall  be  convened  by  the  Executive  Department  holding  its  power  and  authority  under 
the  old  Constitution. 

V.  The  first  regular  General  Assembly  under  this  amended  Constitution,  shall 
convene  and  assemble  at  the  Capitol,  in  the  City  of  Richmond,  on  the 

"  VI.  The  powers  and  duties  of  the  Executive  Department  under  the  old  Consti- 
tution, shall  cease  and  determine,  and  those  of  the  Executive  Department  under  the 
new. Constitution,  shall  commence  as  soon  as  may  be  after  the  commencement  of  the 
first  regular  session  of  the  General  Assembly  elected  under  the  new  Constitution. 

VII.  All  ofiicers,  whether  civil  or  military,  holding  their  offices  under  the  old 
Constitution,  whose  cases  are  not  herein  provided  for,  shall  continue  to  hold  their 
offices  under  the  new  Constitution,  by  the  same  tenure,  and  for  the  same  time,  as 
under  the  old  Constitution. 

"  VIII.  All  the  Courts  of  Justice  now  existing  in  this  Commonwealth,  shall  con- 
tinue vrith  the  same  jurisdiction  as  heretofore,  until  the  said  courts  shall  have  been 
modified  or  abolished,  or  the  jurisdiction  thereof  modified  or  taken  away,  by  an  act  or 
acts  of  the  General  Assembly,  made  under  the  restrictions  and  limitations  herein  be- 
fore provided." 

Jle  added  a  few  words  in  explanation. 

Mr.  Johnson  expressed  a  doubt,  whether  the  Convention  had  a  right  to  provide  a 
different  mode  for  carrying  the  Constitution  into  effect,  than  that  appointed  by  law ; 
and  also,  if  they  had,  whether  it  ought  to  be  left  to  the  Executive,  rather  than  to  the 
Legislature,  to  surrender  up  the  old  Government  to  the  new.  That  these  questions 
might  be  considered,  he  moved  an  adjournment,  but  withdrew  the  motion  at  the  re- 
quest of 

JNIr.  Coalter,  who  suggested  a  difficulty  in  case  the  Constitution  should  be  adopted 
by  a  single  vote,  and  that  vote  be  disputed,  to  whom  was  the  question  to  be  referred  ? 
To  freeholders.^  To  house-keepers.'  He  asked  if  the  Convention  had  not  power  to 
require  a  given  majority,  in  order  to  the  adoption  of  tne  Constitution  He  should 
be  very  unwilling  to  leave  it  to  a  bare  majority  of  one. 

Mr.  Johnson  now  renewed  his  motion,  and  the  House  adjourned  to  11  o'clock  to- 
morrow. 


WEDNESDAY,  January  13,  1830. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr. 
Croes  of  the  Episcopal  Church. 

The  question  lying  over  from  yesterday,  was  on  striking  out  the  thirty -first  article  of 
the  draughted  Constitution,  which  is  in  the  following  words  : 

"  XXXI.  The  Executive  Department  of  the  Government  shall  remain  as  at  pre- 
sent organized,  and  the  Governor  and  Privy  Councillors  shall  continue  in  office  until 
a  Govel-nor,  elected  under  this  Constitution,  shall  come  into  ofiice  :  and  all  other  per- 
sons in  office  when  this  Constitution  shall  be  adopted,  except  as  is  herein  otherwise 
expressly  directed,  shall  continue  in  office  till  successors  shall  be  appointed,  or  the  law 
shall  otherwise  provide  :  and  all  the  Courts  of  Justice  now"  existing,  shall  continue 
with  their  present  jurisdiction,  until  and  except  so  far  as  the  Judicial  system  may  or 
shall  be  hereafter  otherwise  organized  by  the  Legislature." 

And  on  appending  to  the  Constitution  the  following  article  : 
II.  And  it  shall  moreover  be  the  duty  of  the  Executive  Department,  in  and  by 
such  proclamation,  to  command  the  sherifls  and  other  officers,  directed  by  law  to  hold 
and  superintend  elections,  under  the  penalty  of  dollars  for  failing  to  obey  such 


864 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


command,  to  open  polls  in  their  respective  counties,  cities,  towns  and  boroughs,  and 
in  the  election  districts  established  by  law  in  their  respective  counties,  on  the 

,  for  the  election  of  a  Delegate  or  Delegates,  as  the  case  may  be,  to  re- 
present the  counties,  towns,  boroughs  and  districts,  respectively  mentioned  and  de- 
scribed in  the  third  article  of  this  Constitution,  and  of  a  Senator  to  represent  each  of 
the  Senatorial  districts  described  in  the  fourth  article." 

The  question  being  on  filling  the  blanks  in  this  article,  Mr.  Cooke  moved  to  fill  the 
first  blank,  relating  to  the  fine  of  the  sheriff",  with  "  $5,000." 

Mr.  Wilson  proposed  to  fill  it  with  "  $  1,000." 

Mr.  Scott  expressed  a  doubt  of  the  authority  of  the  Convention  to  pass  any  final 
law.  The  act  of  Assembly  under  which  they  were  acting,  gave  them  no  such  autho- 
I'ity  ;  and  as  he  understood  it,  this  clause  was  to  operate  before  any  final  action  of  the 
people  on  the  Constitution.    If  so,  they  certainly  had  no  authority  to  inflict  any  fine. 

Mr.  Cooke  explained.  The  fine  was  not  to  be  exacted  until  after  the  people  should 
have  accepted  the  Constitution — and  their  act  would  give  validity  to  the  provision, 
let  it  exact  what  it  might. 

Mr.  Scott  withdrew  his  amendment,  and  the  motion  of  Mr.  Cooke  was  agreed  to — 
Ayes  50. 

So  the  first  blank  was  filled  with  ^'  $5,000." 

Mr.  Cooke  now  moved  to  fill  the  second  blank  with  these  words  :  "  the  first  Mon- 
day in  November  of  the  present  year." 

A  desultory  debate  arose  on  this  motion,  in  which  Messrs.  Bayly,  Claytor,  Stanard, 
V enable,  Randolph  and  Scott  took  part.  Mr.  Cooke's  motion  was  lost,  and  after  se- 
veral other  periods  were  proposed,  the  blank  was  finally  agreed  to  be  filled  with  "  the 
respective  court  days  in  the  month  of  November." 

[Mr.  Randolph's  argument  for  preferring  November  to  October,  was,  that  it  was 
the  feast  of  new  corn — all  were  then  in  the  enjoyment  of  plenty — and  a  man  felt 
more  independent  and  more  respectable  who  had  corn  in  his  crib,  than  a  man  who 
had  corn  to  buy.] 

The  third  blank  was  filled,  on  Mr.  Cooke's  motion,  with  "  the  first  Monday  in  Ja- 
nuary, 1831." 

The  question  then  recurred  on  agreeing  to  the  article  as  thus  amended. 

Mr.  Wilson  requested,  that  the  question  might  be  divided,  and  put  separately  on 
the  several  clauses  of  Mr.  Cooke's  proposition,  seriatim. 

The  question  was  accordingly  first  propounded  on  the  first  clause  as  amended. 

Mr.  Giles  enquired  if  it  was  the  intention  of  the  mover,  that  the  election  should 
be  held  and  completed  on  the  first  day  ?  If  not,  reference  must  be  had  to  the  existing 
law  under  the  present  Constitution. 

Mr.  Cooke  replied,  that  all  laws  which  the  new  Constitution  did  not  supersede, 
would,  of  course,  remain  in  full  force,  and  that  law  among  the  rest.  The  sheriff 
would  hold  the  elections  just  as  he  did  at  present. 

Mr.  Johnson  said,  that  he  had  no  objection  to  the  details  of  the  proposition,  if  the 
House  should  be  of  opinion  that  it  ought  to  prescribe  the  mode  of  carrying  the  Con- 
stitution into  effect,  and  to  confer  the  duty  on  the  Executive  instead  of  on  the  Lgis- 
lature.  He  was,  however,  strongly  under  the  impression  that  it  was  neither  necessary 
nor  proper  for  the  Convention  to  make  any  provision  on  the  subject.  The  act  of  the 
Assembly  was  the  charter  of  all  their  rights  as  a  Convention.  It  contemplated,  most 
clearly,  the  conferring  on  them  no  other  power  than  to  prepare  amendments  to  the 
old  Constitution,  or  a  new  Constitution  in  lieu  of  it.  That  was  the  whole  extent  of 
their  authority.  When  that  duty  had  been  performed,  the  same  act  declared  how  their 
work  should  be  submitted  to  the  people,  and  how  it  should  be  ratified.  If  he  was 
correct  in  that  view,  the  whole  of  the  present  article  was  a  work  of  supererogation 
entirely.  (Mr.  J.  here  quoted  the  act  at  large.)  To  him  it  appeared  that  that  act 
prescribed  in  the  first  place  the  duty  of  the  Convention,  then  the  manner  in  which 
the  new  Constitution  was  to  be  submitted  to  the  people,  and  next  the  mode  in  which 
it  was  to  receive  its  ratification  if  they  should  approve  it.  There  was  nothing  left  for 
them  to  do  on  the  latter  part  of  the  subject.  They  had  no  authority  to  repeal  any 
part  of  the  old  Constitution. 

But  if  it  were  otherwise,  he  asked  whether  the  provisions  in  the  act  were  not  am- 
ple, and  whether  they  were  not  preferable  to  those  in  the  proposition  of  the  gentle- 
man from  Frederick  ?  The  difference  between  the  two,  was,  that  according  to  the  one 
the  Legislature  was  to  prescribe  the  details  for  the  first  election,  while  by  the  other  the 
Convention  were  to  dispose  of  those  details,  and  were  to  dispense  with  convening 
any  extra  meeting  of  the  Assembly  at  all.  The  saving  of  that  expense  was  certainly 
our  object,  if  the  same  ends  could  as  well  be  attained  without  it ;  but  that  was  a  small 
item.  Was  it  not  more  fit  and  proper  that  the  Legislature  should  be  convened.?  The 
act  manifestly  intended  to  submit  to  the  existing  Government  as  now  organized  the 
question,  whether  the  act  of  that  Government  had  been  answered  or  no  by  the  means 
it  had  prescribed.    The  Legislature  certainly  proposed  that  the  decision  of  that  ques- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


865 


tion  should  be  submitted  to  themselves  and  not  to  the  Executive  Department ;  and  if 
BO,  this  amendment  went  to  make  a  substantial  change  in  the  course  intended.  They 
were  referring  the  question  to  a  body  possessed  cf  no  powers  to  send  for  persons  and 
papers,  and  having  no  adequate  means  of  ascertaining  whether  the  Constitution  had 
been  accepted  by  the  people  or  not.  He  would  not  submit  any  question  of  such  a 
character  to  such  a  department  of  Government.  The  solemnity  of  a  Legislative  act 
was  required  in  order  to  pronounce  on  the  fact  that  the  Constitution  had  been  duly 
ratified,  should  a  doubt  be  started.  Should  it  be  affirmed,  that  in  some  parts  of  the 
State  the  question  on  the  acceptance  of  the  new  Constitution  had  been  submitted  to 
people  of  all  descriptions  that  chose  to  vote,  and  not  to  the  qualified  voters  merely, 
the  Legislature  would  have  the  necessary  power  to  enquire  into  the  matter — to  obtain 
proof,  and  definitively  to  decide  on  matters  of  fact,  connected  with  the  question. 

It  might  be  supposed,  that  under  that  provision  of  the  act,  which  empowers  the 
Governor  to  convene  the  Legislature,  on  ascertaining  that  the  Constitution  had  been 
adopted  by  the  people,  the  question  was  decided.  But,  he  thought  otherwise.  Some- 
body must  have  been  appointed  to  convene  the  Legislature,  and  in  so  doing,  the 
Governor  acted  of  course  on  mere  2}rhna  facie  evidence,  on  which  he  was  to  convene 
that  body,  which  constituted  the  grand  tribunal  of  the  nation.  They  alone  could 
properly  settle  all  disputed  points  that  might  arise.  He  thought  it  infinitely  better  to 
leave  the  matter  as  the  act  had  provided,  siuce  there  might  be  great  doubt  as  to  the 
validity  of  any  decision  of  the  Convention  in  the  case. 

Mr.  Cooke  replied  :  The  first  question  for  the  Convention  to  settle  was,  whether  it 
was  expedient  to  take  the  course  he  proposed  On  that  question,  he  presumed  there 
could  be  little  doubt.  It  would  save,  entirely,  the  whole  expense  of  an  extra  session 
of  tlie  Legislature  consisting  of  two  hundred  and  fourteen  members.  No  man  who 
was  acquainted  with  the  mode  of  doing  business  in  Virginia,  who  was  aware  of  the 
fondness  which  existed  for  talking  a  great  deal  before  much  was  done,  and  knew  the 
modus  operandi  usual  in  the^Legislature,  could  believe  tha'  this  extra  session  would  oc- 
cupy less  than  at  least  thirty  days ;  and  that  must  cause  an  expense  to  the  Common- 
wealth of  at  least  $  30,000.  To  save  this  money,  was  in  itself  confessedly  expedient. 
But  if  the  Convention  had  no  right  or  authority  to  prescribe  such  an  arrangement, 
then,  no  matter  how  expedient  it  might  be,  they,  of  course,  would  not  do  it. 

But  he  maintained  that  they  had  the  right.  The  first  act  of  Assembly  to  which  he 
referred  in  support  of  this  position  was,  tliat  of  31st  January,  1828,  which  declared 
how  the  sense  of  the  people  should  be  taken  as  to  the  expediency  of  holding  a  Con- 
vention. By  that  act  it  was  declared  that  the  Governor  was  to  report  to  the  Legisla- 
ture what  was  the  people's  decision.  The  sense  of  the  people  was  accordingly  taken, 
and  it  was  found  that  there  was  a  majority  in  favour  of  calling  a  Convention.  The 
Legislature  then  enacted  a  law  assembling  the  Convention,  and  defining  to  some  ex- 
tent the  powers  it  was  to  possess.  He  admitted  this.  But  still  he  contended  that  the 
members  of  that  Convention,  as  the  representatives  of  the  sovereignty  of  the  people, 
had  a  perfect  right  to  recommend  to  the  people  a  departure  from  that  act.  The  terms 
of  the  law  were  not  so  narrow  as  to  preclude  them  from  considering  what  was  the 
best  mode  of  carrying  the  new  Constitution,  if  adopted,  into  effect.  They  might  in- 
sert in  the  instrument  they  reported  to  the  people,  what  they  intended  to  recommend 
as  permanent  parts  of  the  Constitution,  and  they  might  also  recommend  to  the  peo- 
ple to  adopt  a  less  expensive  mode  of  carrying  its  provisions  into  effect.  He  admitted, 
that  they  had  no  right  themselves  to  modify  the  provisions  of  the  act  of  Assembly 
under  which  they  acted.  They  could  act  with  no  authorit}'^  in  any  ihi-ng prcriotLS  to 
the  adoption  of  the  new  Constitution  by  the  people.  But  the  twenty-first  section  of 
that  act  referred  to  what  was  to  be  done  after  the  acceptance  of  the  Constitution  :  and 
the  question  was,  whether  it  was  not  competent  to  the  Convention  to  recommend  to 
the  people  to  modify  an  act  passed  by  a  few  of  their  own  servants,  by  the  old  Legisla- 
ture   That  was  the  question. 

But  it  was  contended  by  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  (Mr.  Johnson,)  that  it  had 
been  the  obvious  intention  of  the  Legislature,  that  the  question  whether  a  majority 
of  the  people  ratified  the  Constitution  or  no,  should  be  submitted  to  the  Legislature 
and  not  to  the  Executive.  He  could  not  see  in  the  act  any  thing  like  that.  The  act 
said  that  the  Executive  was  to  examine  that  question,  and  when  he  found  that  the 
Constitution  was  accepted,  he  was  to  convene  an  extra  session  of  the  Leoislature  to 
carry  the  Constitution  into  effect.  The  returns  of  the  votes  were  to  be  made  by 
sworn  officers  :  and  they  were  to  be  submitted  to  a  sworn  Executive — persons  holding 
a  high  and  important  trust,  and  so  entrusted,  owing  to  their  claims  to  confidence  in 
the  community. 

The  act  assigned  it  to  such  citizens  to  examine  into  the  question  of  the  acceptance 
of  the  Constitution  ;  and  if  from  that  examination  it  should  appear — appear  to  whom.? 
To  the  Executive  that  a  majority  had  accepted  the  Constitution,  then  the  Executive 
was  to  convene  the  Legislature  :  to  do  what.?  To  examine  the  same  question  again  ? 
No,  but  to  carry  the  Constitution  into  effect.    The  extra  Legislature  thus  convened, 

109 


866 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


had  no  power  to  do  any  thing  whatever,  but  that :  they  were  called  to  carry  the  Con- 
stitution into  effect :  that  they  were  to  do,  and  that  only.  The  construction  of  the 
gentleman  from  Augusta,  was  borne  out  by  the  words  of  the  act.  The  law  gave  to 
the  Executive  and  the  Executive  alone,  the  power  of  determining  whether  a  majority 
of  the  people  had  voted  for  the  Constitution.  They  were  to  judge  :  and  as  soon  as 
they  had  determined,  the  act  commanded  them  to  convene  the  Legislature  to  carry 
the  instrument  into  operation.  'J'he  Legislature  was  not  made  a  Court  of  Enquiry  to 
see  whether  the  determination  of  the  Executive  had  been  right  or  wrong.  They  had 
no  right  to  interfere,  till  the  question  of  ratification  had  been  determined.  And  the 
moment  it  was  duly  certified  that  the  people  had  ratified  the  new  Constitution,  from 
that  moment  it  became  permanent — it  rode  over  the  nineteenth  section  and  all  other 
sections  of  the  act  of  the  Legislature,  and  became  the  supreme  law  of  the  land.  Mr. 
Cooke  concluded  by  expressing  his  hope,  that  this  mode  of  carrying  the  Constitution 
into  effect,  and  saving  an  expense  of  ^  30,000,  and  all  the  time  and  trouble  of  an  extra 
session  of  the  Legislature,  v.'ould  be  approved  by  the  Convention  and  by  them  re- 
comuiended  to  the  people. 

Mr.  Pow^ell  said,  it  seemed  a  matter  of  doubt  and  of  difficulty  how  far  the  Conven- 
tion had  power  to  enact  such  a  provision  as  was  now  proposed  to  them.  To  obviate 
the  difficulty,  and  at  the  same  time  to  save  expense,  he  would  submit  an  amendment, 
the  effect  of  which  would  be  to  present  to  the  Assembly  now  in  session  a  copy  of  the 
Constitution,  with  a  request  that  the  Assembly  Avould  provide  for  carrying  it  into  ef- 
fect on  its  adoption  by  the  people.  If  they  should  not  comply,  the  Convention  would 
but  be  thrown  back  on  the  original  law.  This  would  avoid  the  difficulty  of  an  extra 
session  and  effect  every  object  in  view. 

Mr.  Powell  tlien  submitted  the  following  amendment : 
Resolved.  That  a  copy  of  this  amended  Constitution,  be  presented  to  the  General 
Assembly  now  in  session,  and  that  the  General  Assembly  be  requested  to  provide  by 
law  for  carrying  the  same  into  operation  :  provided  said  amended  Constitution  should 
be  adopted  by  the  qualified  voters  of  the  Commonwealth,  under  the  amended  Con- 
stitution." 

Mr.  Randolph  said,  he  had  been  very  forcibly  impressed  by  the  observations  of  the 
gentleman  from  Augusta  upon  the  motion  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick.  As  to 
the  amendment  of  the  other  gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Powell,)  he  considered 
it  as  premature  (to  use  a  very  incorrect  mode  of  expression,  but  one  which  was  very 
familiarly  employed  and  well  understood  ;)  he  supposed  it  to  have  been  urged  rather 
as  an  argument  against  the  adoption  of  the  proposition  of  the  first  gentleman.  He 
had  been  forcibly  impressed  by  the  observations  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta. 
But  while  attending  to  him,  (as  he  always  did)  with  the  utmost  respect,  he  had  been 
struck  with  this  difficulty :  By  whose  authority  did  the  Legislature  pass  the  very 
questionable  act — 1  do  not  mean,  however,  to  question  it  at  present — under  which  we 
are  assembled  here  By  the  authority  of  their  constituents.  And  who  were  their  con- 
stituents The  freeholders  of  the  Commonwealth.  By  whose  authority  do  we  sit 
here  ?  Whence  is  our  power.?  From  our  constituents.  And  who  are  our  constituents? 
The  same  ansv/er  must  be  given — the  freeholders  of  the  Commonwealth.  Now,  the 
freeholders  of  the  Commonwealth  having  given  their  sanction  to  the  very  question- 
able act  of  the  Legislature — 1  refer  to  the  first  as  well  as  the  second  act  on  the  sub- 
ject of  a  Convention — and  deputed  us  here  to  propose  amendments  to  the  old  Con- 
stitution, or  the  draught  of  a  new  one — to  whom,  I  ask,  in  the  nature  of  things — did 
the  freeholders  suppose  the  new  Constitution  was  to  be  submitted  for  adoption  or  re- 
jection ?  Must  it  not  have  been  to  that  original  authority — to  that  source  and  fountain 
from  whence  is  derived  all  our  authority  as  a  Convention I  mean  to  themselves  ? 
Let  me  suppose  a  case  :  A  majority  of  the  freeholders  of  Virginia — (Sir,  I  do  not  be- 
lieve it — I  do  not  believe  one  word — no  not  a  syllable  of  it)  the  freeholders  of  Vir- 
ginia have  consented — being  the  body  politic  of  Virginia — the  fountain  of  all  power 
in  Virginia — have  consented  that  a  Convention  shall  assemble  for  the  purpose  of  de- 
vising amendments  to  the  existing  Constitution  or  proposing  a  new  Constitution  in 
its  stead.  Now,  Sir,  the  freeholders  of  Virginia  have  not  yet  decided — though  they 
have  decided  that  amendments  shall  be  proposed  to  them — that  with  worse  than  the 
stupidity  of  Esau,  they  shall  be  deprived  of  their  birthright.  The  Convention  are 
proposing  that  the  former  limits  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage  shall  be  extended — I  will 
say — ad  indejimtum.  Who  is  to  decide  on  this  question  Those  to  whom  we  propose 
to  extend  that  right?  Unquestionably,  no  :  no  more  than  the  people  of  Ohio  or  Penn- 
sylvania, have  a  right  to  decide  it.  They  have  no  right  whatever  :  they  have  not  a 
shadow  of  right. 

This  Convention  proposes  to  extend  the  Right  of  Suffrage  beyond  its  former  limits 
and  circumscription.  Who  are  to  decide  on  the  question?  They,  from  whom  the 
Legislature  and  the  Convention  both  derive  all  the  authority  they  possess,  and  the 
latter,  all  the  authority  they  have  usurped — they,  from  whom  the  Legislature  derive 
all  the  power  they  justly  had,  and  all  they  unjustly  usurped — are  they  to  decide?  or 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


867 


are  those  to  whom  we  propose  to  extend  this  boon  ?  Do  you  not  see  the  palpable  in- 
justice— I  was  about  to  add — for  it  is  the  only  word  that  will  express  my  idea — the 
absurdity  of  this  thing?  Those  from  whom  we  derive  all  our  authority,  are  not  to  de- 
cide ;  but,  those  to  whom  the  power  is  to  be  given  which  we  have  first  taken  away 
from  those  to  whom  it  belonged.  1  ask  of  gentlemen  to  consider  this — 1  beg  them  to 
ponder  well  upon  it — f  beseech  them  to  lay  it  to  their  hearts,  having  first  presented 
it  to  their  understandings.  The  instant  those  who  are  not  the  freeholders  of  Virginia, 
attempt  to  decide  upon  any  Constitution  we  may  propose,  one  has  as  good  a  right  to 
decide  as  another — the  moment  you  leave  the  land — the  freehold — there  is  no  stop- 
ping place — no  limit — no  line  of  demarcation— no  boundary.  So  far,  so  good;  we  are 
proceeding  under  the  sanction  of  the  freeholders  of  the  Commonwealth.  But  we  can 
derive  no  power  from  her  Legislature  to  betray  those  freeholders — to  disavow  them 
— to  disfranchise  our  constituents. 

Sir,  if  the  freeholders  choose  to  say,  we  approve  of  what  you  propose,  there  is  an 
end — nothing  more  is  to  be  said.  But,  nobody  else  has  any  right  to  speak  in  the  mat- 
ter.   We  are  their  agents,  acting  under  their  sanction. 

One  word  as  to  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  who  sits  before 
me,  (Mr.  Powell.)  If  the  Convention  shall  resolve  to  allow  others  than  freeholders 
to  decide  the  question  of  the  adoption  of  the  Constitution,  then  it  will  be  necessary 
that  the  present  Legislature  should  act  in  the  case  :  but  they  will  have  to  act  as  usur- 
pers. So  long  as  you  conferred  the  suffrage  on  the  land — the  only  safe  foundation  of 
free  Government,  in  a  landed  community — you  had  record  evidence  of  who  were 
qualified  voters ;  but  now,  you  might  as  well  apply  to  Babel  or  to  Chaos  for  any  cer- 
tainty about  the  matter.  Sir,  I  am  afraid  I  have  not  done  justice  to  the  clear — the 
perfectly  clear  opinion  I  had  formed  on  this  subject,  while  the  gentleman  from  Augus- 
ta was  speaking.  Sir,  we  are  the  trustees  for  the  freeholders :  and  we  have  no  right 
to  betray  them.  We  act  by  their  authority  alone.  We  may  to  be  sure,  take  in  other 
persons,  besides  freeholders — violence  may  prevail.  The  kingdom  of  heaven  suffer- 
eth  violence,  and  the  violent  take  it  by  force — but  we  have  no  more  legal  authority 
than  Bonaparte,  or  Attila,  or  Ghengis  Khan  :  it  will  be  the  law  of  force — and  the  law 
of  force  alone. 

Mr.  Powell  observed,  that  the  gentleman  had  said  his  amendment  was  premature : 
if  so,  that  of  his  colleague,  (Mr.  Cooke,)  must  be  premature  also.  But  he  did  not  con- 
sider it  as  premature  :  the  efiicacy  of  the  amendment  would  depend  on  the  event.  If 
the  Convention  departed  from  the  Act  of  Assembly  at  all,  it  must  be  at  some  period, 
and  why  not  now  .''  If  the  Constitution  should  be  rejected,  this  amendment  would  ©f 
course  fall  with  it:  it  only  operated  in  case  the  Constitution  should  be  adopted.  As 
to  the  other  objection  of  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte,  the  Legislature  which  had 
passed  the  Act  by  which  they  sat  as  a  Convention,  had  provided  that  tlie  adoption  of 
any  Constitution  they  might  propose,  should  not  depend  on  the  freeholders  alone, 
but  on  all  who  should  be  qualified  voters  under  the  new  Constitution.  That  was  the 
law  of  the  land.  The  gentleman  said,  the  Legislature  had  acted  as  usurpers  :  if  that 
were  true  as  to  their  original  act,  how  stood  the  case  now.?  Those  very  freeholders 
for  whom  the  gentleman  was  so  zealous,  had  themselves  adopted  the  Act  of  tiie  Le- 
gislature by  their  ov/n  votes.  They  had  sanctioned  this  very  Act  by  a  majority  of 
five  thousand  votes.  If  there  had  been  any  usurpation  in  the  first  instance,  that  vote 
had  made  the  Act  legitimate.  If  the  amendment  was  thought  to  be  premature,  he  had 
no  objection  to  withdraw  it  for  the  present.  But  the  amendment  obviated  the  only 
objection  his  colleague  had  urged  against  the  provisions  of  the  law;  and  it  settled  a 
question  which  was  at  best  doubtful. 

Mr.  Cooke  enquired,  if  the  amendment  was  to  be  understood  as  withdrawn.? 

Mr.  Powell,  after  some  hesitation,  replied  in  the  negative. 

Mr.  Stanard  thought  it  manifest  that  the  proposition  had  better  not  be  pushed  at 
present ;  it  was  not  the  proper  occasion.  The  examples  of  other  States  shewed  that 
similar  provisions  had  been  reserved  until  after  the  vote  in  Convention  was  taken  on 
the  amended  Constitution.  It  was  not  to  be  considered  as  a  part  of  the  Constitution 
itself,  but  a  mere  appendage  to  it,  providing  for  the  mode  of  giving  effect  to  its  pro- 
visions. 

He  would  turn  the  attention  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick,  in  his  eye,  (Mr. 
Cooke,)  to  some  considerations  not  fully  developed  by  the  gentleman  from  Augusta, 
(Mr.  Johnson,)  from  which  the  inevitable  inference  would  be,  that  the  Constitution, 
and  the  decision  that  might  be  had  upon  it,  in  order  to  give  any  solid  satisfaction  to 
the  public  mind,  must  of  necessity  be  subjected  to  Legislative  action.  He  should  not 
enter  on  the  question  which  had  been  discussed  by  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte  :  but 
would  proceed  on  the  concession,  that  those  were  to  vote  on  the  Constitution,  who  were 
qualified  to  vote  for  the  most  numerous  branch  of  the  Legislature.  There  was  no  pro- 
vision of  law  for  this  new  state  of  things,  which  would  arise  in  consequence  of  the  ex- 
tension of  the  Right  of  Suffrage.  No  criteria  had  been  fixed  for  determining  whether 
voters  had  or  had  not  the  qualifications  the  Constitution  required. 


868 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


He  submitted,  whether  there  was  not  a  cogent  necessity  for  establishing  some  tests 
of  this  kind,  which  might  be  a  guide  to  the  officers  who  should  superintend  elections  ? 
The  Constitution  i^ust  go  back  to  the  Legislature  for  this  purpose,  otherwise  it  might 
be  adopted  or  rejected  by  tlie  indiscriminate  votes  of  persons  not  qualified.  Another 
serious  consideration  presented  itself.  He  could  anticipate  no  event  fraught  with 
more  mischief,  or  surrounded  with  more  dreadful,  because  more  undefined  evils,  than 
the  effect  of  an  unauthorised  body  assuming  to  itself  the  functions  of  a  Convention  as 
settled  by  law.  Such  a  Convention  was  one  of  the  most  fearful  events  that  could 
occur  in  the  State.  To  avert  this,  they  ought  to  cherish  respect  to  the  law  under 
which  they  had  been  convened.  It  was  better,  far  better,  than  the  assumption  of 
power  by  individuals  in  faith. 

Would  not  the  gentleman  destroy  all  respect  to  the  law,  if  under  the  authority  of 
that  law,  he  offered  a  proposition  by  which  the  law  itself  was  to  be  superseded  and 
annulled  ?  Mr.  S.  said,  he  would  not  enlarge  upon  this  idea}  but  would  merely  ask 
the  gentleman,  if  he  was  willing  to  set  such  an  example  ? 

He  concluded,  by  moving  to  lay  the  amendment  on  the  table. 

Mr.  Randolph  said,  he  had  risen  with  unfeigned  reluctance  to  say  a  dozen  words  on 
the  question  before  the  House.  It  was  plain  to  him,  that  there  could  be  none  of  greater 
importance,  or  which  seemed  to  be  less  understood.  I  ask,  said  Mr.  R.  whether  we 
are  empowered  to  do  any  thing  which  shall  be  binding  either  upon  the  people  or  upon 
the  Legislature  Sir,  we  have  been  called  as  Counsel  to  the  people — as  State  physi- 
cians— to  propose  remedies  for  the  State's  diseases — not  to  pass  any  act  that  shall  have 
in  itself  any  binding  force.  We  are  here  as  humble  advisers  and  proposers  to  the  peo- 
ple. Does  not  the  gentleman  from  Frederick  distinctly  see,  that  if  his  doctrine  be 
correct,  we  are  giving  a  Convention  power  to  bind  conclusively  the  people  of  Virgi- 
nia quoad  the  Rlc  ht  of  Suffrage  ?  to  settle  that  question  in  the  first  and  in  the  last  in- 
stance, without  consulting  them  ?  I  shall  be  told  that  we  have  been  clothed  with  this 
power.  Are  we.^  The  Legislature,  I  grant,  have  been  very  kind  in  clothing  us  with 
a  power  they  did  not  possess.  Sir,  we  do  not  draw  one  single  jot  or  tittle  of  authority 
from  the  Legislature  of  Virginia.  If  the  gentleman's  doctrine  be  correct,  then  the 
Legislature  of  Virginia — who  cannot  touch  tlie  subject  without  an  act  of  treachery 
themselves — have  given  to  the  Convention  power,  as  to  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  to  bind 
the  people  of  Virginia:  Converting  us,  in  this  one  single  instance,  from  an  advisory 
into  a  controlling  Council.  We  can  propose  to  the  people  that  the  Governor  shall  be 
elected  by  themselves ;  but  we  cannot  say  that  he  shall  be.  We  may  propose,  that 
under  certain  circumstances,  the  Judges  may  be  removed  from  their  offices,  but  we 
cannot  say  that  they  shall  be  thus  removed.  Yet  we  can  act  decisively  on  the  subject 
of  the  Right  of  Suffrage.    Here  we  may  say,  it  shall  be  so. 

If  that  be  true,  then,  by  a  juggle  between  the  Legislature,  who  were  without  the 
power  themselves,  and  a  Convention,  v/ho  were  called  only  to  advise  the  people,  an 
act  is  to  be  done  by  which  the  people  are  to  be  finally  bound.  Sir,  I  wish  to  God  I  had 
the  powers  of  the  gentlemen  in  my  eye  (Mr.  Marshall  and  Mr.  Leigh,)  to  shew  this 
matter  as  it  is.  In  the  all-important  question  of  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  this  Conven- 
tion is  to  exert  an  absolute  power  to  decide,  without  consulting  the  people  at  all.  How 
do  we  derive  it  ?  From  a  Virginia  Legislature  who  never  possessed  it.  To  refer  to 
the  Legislature  is  only  putting  a  tortoise  under  the  Elephant.  Thus  power  rests  upon 
the  Elephant — the  Elephant  upon  the  tortoise — and  the  tortoise  upon  nothing.  Sir, 
this  won't  do.  It  won't  do.  Sir.  I  wish — I  would  to  God,  that  I  had  the  powers  of 
that  gentleman  to  exhibit  this  subject  as  it  ought  to  be  exhibited. 

Mr.  Cooke  said,  he  was  unable  to  perceive  how  this  subject  had  any  connexion  with 
the  amendment  he  had  offered. 

Mr.  Randolph  said,  he  would  tell  the  gentleman.  It  had  grown  out  of  the  remarks 
of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta  on  his  amendment. 

Mr.  Cooke  said,  the  question  was  in  no  manner  or  shape  involved  in  the  proposi- 
tions he  had  laid  before  the  House.  It  would  be  perceived  that  in  the  second  clause 
of  his  amendment  it  was  directed,  how  the  election  was  to  be  holden  for  members  of 
the  new  Legislature.  The  question  as  to  whom  the  Constitution  itself  was  to  be  sub- 
mitted, was  not  in  the  most  distant  manner  involved.  That  question  must  be  settled 
either  by  the  silence  of  this  Convention,  in  which  case  the  law  would  settle  it,  or  by 
an  expression  of  the  sentiments  of  the  Convention  in  the  manner  prescribed  by  the 
law.  (Here  Mr.  C.  quoted  the  Act  of  Assembly.)  It  was  obvious,  that  if  the  Con- 
vention should  be  silent,  the  Constitution  would  be  submitted  for  adoption  to  those 
qualified  to  vote  for  the  most  numerous  branch  of  the  Legislature  :  the  law  settled  that 
point.  But  had  they  not  a  perfect  right  to  let  in  others,  under  the  law  or  otherwise  ? 
That  was  the  question  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte  had  argued.  He  conceived  they 
had  a  right  to  say  that  the  whole  white  population  should  be  admitted  to  vote  on  the 
question — they  had  received  from  the  Legislature  a  carte  blanche. 

[Mr.  Randolph  here  interposed,  to  ask  one  question.  Whether  two  persons,  neither 
of  whom  had  any  right  to  an  estate,  could  by  joint  deed  convey  it  away  ?] 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


869 


Mr.  Cooke  resumed.  The  Act  gave  the  Convention  a  right  to  confer  the  right  of 
voting  on  whomsoever  they  pleased.  Had  the  Legislature  any  right  to  give  them 
this  authority  ?  It  was  of  no  moment  whether  or  not ;  because  the  people  themselves, 
the  source  and  fountain  of  all  authority  and  power,  had  passed  upon  that  Act  of  the 
Assembly  :  the  freeholders  of  the  Commonwealth  had  elected  the  members  of  the  pre- 
sent Convention,  in  pursuance  of  the  provisions  of  that  Act.  Here  was  something 
under  the  tortoise  :  and  something  solid  too,  and  perfectly  substantial.  Here  was  the 
case  of  an  estate  deeded  away  under  mere  colour  of  title  ;  but  that  deed  afterwards  ra- 
tified by  the  true  and  acknowledged  owner.  The  freeholders  had  recognised  and  ra- 
tified the  act  of  their  agents  ;  they  had  confirmed  it  by  their  own  deed  :  and  according 
to  that  Act,  the  Convention  might,  if  they  so  thought  fit,  submit  the  new  Constitution 
to  the  whole  people  of  Virginia,  without  an  exception. 

As  to  the  time  when  the  amendment  ought  to  be  offered,  he  agreed  with  the  gen- 
tleman from  Spottsylvania,  that  it  would  have  been  better  to  have  postponed  it  until 
the  vote  for  adopting  or  rejecting  the  Constitution  in  the  Convention  had  been  taken. 
But  he  had  been  influenced  by  the  circumstance  that  the  draught  of  the  Constitution 
itself,  as  reported  by  the  Committee,  attempted  to  do  the  very  same  thing  as  was  the 
aim  of  his  amendment,  but  had,  in  his  opinion,  made  an  imperfect  provision  on  the 
subject.  The  thirty-first  section  provided  against  an  interregnum  in  the  Executive  and 
Judicial  Departments,  but  not  against  an  interregnum  in  the  Legislative  Department. 

Mr.  C.  then  moved  to  strike  out  the  thirty-first  section :  (intending  to  postpone  of- 
fering his  own  until  after  the  vote  on  the  Constitution.) 

Mr.  Leigh  observed,  that  if,  ultimately,  the  proposition  of  Mr.  Cooke  should  be  re- 
jected, this  section  would  have  to  be  re-instated.  All  who  would  ultimately  vote 
against  that  gentleman's  proposition,  would  of  course  vote  against  striking  out. 

Mr.  Johnson  did  not  think  the  section  ought  to  be  stricken  out.  He  did  not  ac- 
knowledge it  to  be  an  imperfect  provision — nor  was  it  an  unsuccessful  attempt,  or  any 
attempt,  to  carry  the  Constitution  into  effect. 

Mr.  Cooke  explained.  He  had  not  said  it  was:  he  had  only  said,  it  was  an  unsuc- 
cessful attempt  to  provide  against  an  interregnum. 

Mr.  Johnson  said,  if  that  were  the  case,  it  was  important  that  the  defect  should  be 
remedied,  and  the  whole  section  abandoned.  The  gentleman  admitted,  that  the  sec- 
tion did  provide  against  an  interregnum  in  the  Executive  and  the  Judicial  Depart- 
ments, but  said  that  it  did  not  so  provide  in  the  Legislative  Departnjent.  That  it  did  not 
attempt  to  do.  That  was  left  to  the  Act  under  which  the  Convention  had  been  called. 
The  clause  intended  no  more  than  to  carry  the  Constitution  into  effect  under  the  law. 
It  had  no  purpose  of  leaving  a  Legislature  clothed  with  full  powers  for  ordinarv  legis- 
lation, after  that  end  had  been  effected:  but  only  to  provide  such  a  Legislature  as 
should  carry  the  new  Constitution  into  effect.  And  that  it  had  done.  There  was  no 
need  to  strike  out  the  clause:  the  gentleman's  article  would  not  interfere  with  it. 

Mr.  Cooke  replied.  If  the  section  did  not  intend  to  provide  a  Legislature  prepared 
for  ordinary  legislation,  it  was  defective  in  not  so  intending.  So  soon  as  the  old  Le- 
gislature should  have  provided  to  carry  the  Constitution  into  effect,  it  would  be  func- 
tus officio:  and  then  there  would  be  a  perfect  Legislative  interregnum  of  several 
months,  until  the  new  Legislature  should  be  organized.  This  ought  not  to  be. 
The  question  was  now  put  on  striking  out  the  thirty-first  section,  and  negatived. 
Mr.  Cooke  then  withdrew  his  amendment  for  the  present. 

The  question  now  recurring  on  the  engrossment  of  the  draught  of  the  Constitution 
for  a  third  reading, 

Mr.  Tazewell  asked  that  it  be  taken  by  ayes  and  noes. 

Mr.  Johnson  said,  that  if  it  was  desirable  to  get  the  sense  of  the  Convention  on 
the  question  which  had  been  commented  on  by  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte,  this 
was  the  proper  time  to  do  so.  After  the  third  reading,  the  Constitution  would  not 
regularly  be  open  to  amendments.  He  had  understood  the  act  of  Assembly  in  the 
same  manner  as  the  gentleman  from  Frederick.  The  Constitution  might  be  submitted 
to  the  qualified  voters,  or  to  any  others  whom  the  Convention  might  please  to  declare 
such.  If  the  sense  of  the  House  v;as  to  be  expressed  on  that  subject,  now  was  the 
proper  time.  The  act  of  the  Assembly  would  Imve  had  no  authority,  but  fi-om  the 
act  of  the  people  upon  it.  He  agreed  with  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte,  that  the 
Legislature  had  no  right  to  pass  such  an  act;  but,  it  had  been  legitimated  by  their 
constituents. 

The  act  had  become  their  ov.m  act  by  the  sanctioning  it,  and  the  people  had  thereby 
given  the  Convention  power  to  submit  the  Constitution  to  whom  they  thought  fit. 

Mr.  Randolph.  One  word  in  reply  to  the  gentleman  from  Augusta — I  do  not 
know — I  am  finite — and  cannot  know — but  there  is  no  fact  on  which'l  have  a  clearer 
conviction — than  that  when  the  freeholders  of  Virginia  voted,  they  voted  on  the  sin- 
gle and  naked  question,  "  Convention,  or  No  Convention,"  and  on  no  other  question 
whatever.  I  shall  not,  I  hope,  be  condemned  as  overweening  and  vain,  when  I  profess 
to  believe,  that  I  possess  at  least  the  average  intelhgence  of  the  freeholders  I  repre- 


870 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


sent — that  take  them  one  with  another,  I  have  as  much  sense  as  the  average  of  them : 
yet  I  say,  that  this  provision  of  the  law  never  entered  my  head  at  all — and  I  will  en- 
gage, that  it  never  entered  the  head  of  one  man  in  ten  thousand  of  all  those  who  did 
vote.  The  only  question  the  people  did  decide  upon,  was  the  question  of  Convention, 
or  JSo  Convention.  Tliey  never  decided  any  other — and  could  not.  I  have  as  much 
respect  for  the  people  as  any  one.  I  am  one  of  the  people.  It  is  common  now-a-days 
to  profess  vast  respect  for  the  people.  This  bov/ing  to  the  majesty  of  the  people,  as 
Patrick  Henry  says,  is  death  to  the  independence  of  the  people.  Sir — 1  have  come 
to  the  conclusion,  from  much  observation,  that  the  people  are  incapable  of  acting  but 
by  their  agents.  Sir — I  once  thought  myself  to  be  a  Republican — and  1  believe  I 
was  thought  by  some  to  be,  if  any  thing,  rather  an  over-violent  Republican.  But 
now,  I  find  gentlemen  gone  far  beyund  me — yes,  Sir — they  beat  me  hollow — I  am  left 
behind — and  begin  to  be  thought  an  Aristocrat  by  those  whom  I  think  ultra  Jacobins. 

The  people  cannot  act  unless  to  their  destruction,  but  by  agents.  They  are  like 
the  infirm  owner  of  a  large  estate.  A  man  who  possesses  a  large  plantation,  and  is  in 
feeble  health,  gets  an  overseer.  If  he  should  undertake  to  superintend  it  himself,  the 
infallible  effect  would  be  the  loss  of  the  crop — and  the  next  thing  we  should  hear  of, 
would  be  a  deed  of  trust  for  his  estate — and  away  it  goes.  So  the  people  must  act — 
they  can  act  safely  only  by  their  agents.  Yet  they  may  be  lured  to  their  destruction 
by  elections  in  November,  and  elections  in  April — at  the  feast  of  new  corn,  or  in  the 
season  of  want  and  scarcity,  when  they  are  called  to  pass  upon  an  act  of  Assembly, 
containing  thirty  or  forty  sections — of  which  one-tenth — no,  Sir — not  one-tenth — 
even  of  the  Assembly  that  passed  it — know  the  true  meaning. 

Sir,  I  have  been  too  long  acquainted  with  Legislative  bodies,  not  to  know  something 
about  them.  They  are  not  themselves  acquainted  with  the  meaning  of  their  own 
acts.  They  must  be  carried  to  the  General  Court,  to  be  settled  one  way — and  then 
to  the  Court  of  Appeals,  to  be  settled  another  way — and  it  is  not  until  the  question 
becomes  res  adjudicata,  that  the  meaning  of  their  act  is  known.  Yet  you  expect  the 
people  to  pass  on  an  act  of  I  don't  know  how  many  sections,  at  the  polls.  Sir,  the 
people  did  no  such  thing.  They  could  not  do  such  a  thing.  As  to  the  act  of  the 
Legislature's  being  cured  by  the  assent  of  the  freeholders  of  Virginia,  the  freeholders 
knew  nothing  about  it.    I  am  sure  1  did  not. 

Mr.  Campbell  of  Bedford  moved  to  strike  out  in  the  twenty-ninth  section  the  word 
"  concurrent,"  and  insert  the  word  "joint." 

The  question  was  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows : 

^yes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne, 
Smith,  Baxter,  George,  M'Milian,  Byars,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  See,  Morgan, 
Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Saunders  and  Cabell — 22. 

jYoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond, 
Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  Miller,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trez- 
vant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison, 
Stanard,  Holladay,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne,  Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs, 
Mason  of  Frederick,  Najdor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  Campbell  of  Washington, 
Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Cloyd,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers, 
Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis, 
Grigsby,  Claytor,  Branch,  Townes,  Martin,  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson, 
Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 73. 
THE  JUDICIARY  QUESTION. 

Mr.  Scott  then  addressed  the  Convention  as  follows  : 

It  is  probable  that  many  members  of  this  Convention  think,  that  my  sensibility  on 
the  subject  of  the  Judiciary  is  a  morbid  sensibility.  Possibly  it  is  so.  But,  whether 
it  be  morbid  or  not,  as  it  exists,  I  must  obey  its  impulse. 

Ml.  President — I  know  very  well,  that  mankind  are  prone  to  refer  our  actions  to 
selfish  motives,  when  such  motives  can  be  found.  And  unhappily,  such  is  the  frailty 
of  our  nature,  the  suspicion  that  we  are  prompted  by  them,  is  often  but  too  well 
founded.  I  cannot  expect  that  I  shall  escape  on  the  present  occasion.  I  am  well 
aware,  that  the  zeal  which  I  have  manifested  in  relation  to  this  subject,  may  be,  and 
probably  by  some  is,  attributed  to  sinister  views.  It  is  at  all  times  exceedingly  pain- 
ful to  me  to  speak  of  myself.  I  know  very  well,  that  a  man  seldom  does  himself  a 
service  by  such  a  course.  But,  there  are  occasions  on  which  it  is  indispensable  that 
he  should  do  so,  and  this  appears  to  me  to  be  one  of  them. 

It  has  been  a  maxim  with  me,  that  our  first  care  should  be  to  do  that  which  in  our 
conscience  we  believe  to  be  right ;  our  second,  to  have  the  credit  of  it.  But,  Sir, 
whilst  I  place  reputation  next  in  order  to  virtue,  there  is  a  vast  space  between  them. 

Upon  the  present  occasion,  I  shall  pursue  that  course  which  is  pointed  out  by  duty, 
let  the  consequences  be  what  they  may. 

It  has  been  my  misfortune,  ever  since  I  arrived  at  manhood,  if  misfortune  it  may  be 
called,  to  be  in  the  minority  on  the  great  political  questions  which  have  divided  this 


DEBATES    OF    THE  COXVEXTIOX. 


871 


country.  Previous  to  the  late  Presidential  election,  I  was  in  the  minority — that  is.  I 
tveis  opposed  to  those  in  power.  The  present  Administration  had  been  in  power  but 
a  short  time,  before  I  found  myself  in  the  minority  asrain.  Perhaps  it  is  a  vice  of  my 
nature,  that  1  cannot  remain  with  the  majority.  You  will  allow,,  howeyer.  that  it  is 
not  the  way  to  get  office.  3Ir.  President.  [  take  this  opportunity  pubhcly  to  declare, 
that  there  is  not  an  office  or  place  in  the  gift  of  the  General  or  State  G-oyernment, 
which  I  would  accept.  1  ayaii  myself  of  this  occasion,  to  record  my  own  eyidence 
of  my  total  unfitness  to  fill  any  public  station.  Sir.  1  haye  laboured  under  disease  for 
the  last  seyen  years  of  my  life,  and  I  find  that  my  health,  instead  of  improying.  con- 
tinues to  dechne.  I  declare  myself  to  be  utterly  incapable  of  either  bodily  or  mental 
labor.  I  take  this  public  occasion,  to  record  my  eyidence  to  the  end.  that  if  at  any 
time  hereafter,  I  should  be  mad  enough  to  sohcit  office,  I  may  be  condemned  out  of 
my  own  hps.  I  haye  trespassed  thus  much  on  the  indulorence  of  the  Conyention, 
with  a  hope  that  justice  may  be  done  to  my  motiyes,  should  I  be  driyen  by  eyenls  to 
change  my  course  in  relation  to  the  great  question  which  has  so  long  agitated  this  body. 

At  a  yery  early  period  of  my  life,  I  imbibed  the  sentiment,  that  no  form  of  Goyem- 
ment,  howeyer  excellent  in  other  respects,  can  long  secure  the  hberty  and  happiness 
of  the  people,  without  an  independent  Judiciary.  This  sentiment  was  deeply  planted 
in  my  bosom.  It  has  grown  with  my  srrowth.  and  strenalhened  with  my  strength. 
For  what  purpose.  Sir,  do  we  enter  into  civO  society?  For  what  purpose  is  all  this 
machinery  of  Government  constructed .-  Why  are  laws  enacted  ?  To  protect  the 
weak  asuiost  the  strong.  The  strong  can  protect  themselyes  without  the  aid  of  laws. 
To  what  end  shall  laws  be  enacted,  if  they  be  not  ably  and  justly  administered  ? 
Where  will  the  weak  find  refuge  and  protection,  but  in  your  Courts  of  Justice  .'  If 
your  Judofes  are  dependent,  will  they  depend  upon  the  weak  or  the  strong?  I  did 
not  rise  to  enter  into  an  argument,  and  I  will  not  pursue  the  subject  farther.  If  1 
rightly  understood  the  exposition  of  the  proposed  Constitution,  giyen  by  the  gentle- 
man trom  ^sorfolk  the  other  day.  the  Judges  will  be  completely  dependent  on  the 
Legislature.  According  to  that  exposition,  the  Legislature,  by  abolishing  the  Court^ 
may  depriye  the  Judge  of  his  office ,  and  by  consequence,  that  office  is  held  at  the 
will  of  a  majority  of  a  bare  quorum.  Tiiis  is  not  my  construction  of  that  instrument. 
The  twenty-third  section  of  the  draught  reported  by  the  Committee,  declares  ,  that  the 
Judges  shall  hold  their  offices  ■'•  during  good  behaviour,  or  until  remoyed  in  the  man- 
ner prescribed  in  this  Constitution.'"  ^Now,  there  are  only  two  modes  prescribed  in 
this  Constitution,"  by  which  a  Judge  may  be  removed  firom  office.  One  by  impeach- 
ment, the  other  by  a  concurrent  vote  of  two-thirds  of  botli  Houses  of  the  Legislature. 
This  enumeration,  I  conceiye.  excludes  any  other  •'■'manner"  of  removal:  and  by 
consequence,  a  remoyal  by  mere  legislation.  The  twenty-sixth  section  declares,  that 
the  Judges  shall  receive  fixed  and  adequate  salaries,  which  shall  not  be  diminished 
during  their  continuance  in  office.  Hence,  I  should  infer  that  as  a  depriyation 
of  ofnce  by  abolishing  the  court,  is  not  one  of  the  modes  -  prescribed  in  this  Consti- 
tution," the  office  would  remain,  although  the  court  shotild  be  abolished:  and  whilst 
the  office  remains,  the  right  to  the  salary  continues.  But,  Sir,  I  will  not  venture  to 
place  my  opinion  in  opposition  to  that  of  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk,  who  was  one 
of  the  Committee  that  draughted  the  Constitution.  If  that  instrument  goes  down  to 
posterity,  with  a  construction  sanctioned  by  the  name  and  authority  of  that  gentle- 
man, there  can  be  but  httle  doubt  that  his  construction  will  preyail:  and  a  dominant 
faction  can,  by  a  simple  repeal  of  a  law,  sweep  eyery  Judge  from  the  bench.  I  rose, 
Sir,  for  the  purpose  of  enquiring  of  the  members  of  the  Select  Committee,  and  more 
especially  of  my  friend  from  Richmond,  (the  Chief  Justice.)  who  I  understand  to  be 
the  author  of  that  part  of  the  Constitution  which  relates  to  the  Judiciary,  whether  I 
rightly  understand  the  exposition  of  the  gentleman  fi-om  .S'orfolk.  and  whether  the 
other  members  of  the  Committee  concur  in  that  construction.  Upon  the  answers 
giyen  to  this  enquiry,  my  yote  upon  the  Constitution  will  depend.  Sir.  I  do  not  ap- 
prehend, be  the  construction  of  this  Constitution  what  it  may,  that  in  the  short  rem- 
nant of  my  days,  I  shall  suffer  any  miscliief.  I  do  not  apprehend,  that  in  so  short  a 
period,  the  character  of  Virginia  legislation  wiU  so  change,  as  that  the  Judicial  tenure 
•vsill  be  invaded  by  such  means.  But,  Sir,  we  are  making  a  Constitution  for  posterity. 
"VYe  have  witnessed  such  invasions  in  other  States.  It  would  be  presumptuous  to 
suppose,  that  they  never  can  occur  here.    It  is  our  duty  to  cruard  against  them. 

Mr.  Marshall  said,  that  it  was  with  great,  yery  great  repugnance,  that  he  rose  to 
utter  a  syllable  upon  the  subject.  His  reluctance  to  do  so  was  yery  ^eat  indeed; 
and  he  had,  throughout  the  previous  debates  on  this  subject,  most  carefully  avoided 
expressing  any  opinion  whatever  upon  what  had  been  called  a  construction  of  the 
Constitution  of  the  United  States  by  the  act  of  Congress  of  1502. 

He  should  now.  as  far  as  possible,  continue  to  avoid  expressing  any  opinion  on  that 
act  of  Congress.  There  was  something  in  his  situation  which  ought  to  induce  him 
to  avoid  doing  so.  He  would  go  no  farther  than  to  say,  that  he  did  not  conceive  the 
Constitution  to  have  been  at  all  definitiyely  expounded  by  a  single  act  of  Consrress. 


872 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


He  should  not  meddle  with  the  question,  whether  a  course  of  successive  legislation 
should  or  should  not  be  held  as  a  final  exposition  of  it :  but  he  would  say  this — that  a 
single  act  of  Congress,  unconnected  with  any  other  act  by  the  other  Departments  of 
the  Federal  Government,  and  especially  of  that  Department  more  especially  entrusted 
with  the  construction  of  the  Constitution  in  a  great  degree,  when  there  was  no  union 
of  Departments,  but  the  Legislative  Department  alone  had  acted,  and  acted  but 
once,  even  admitting  that  act  not  to  have  passed  in  times  of  high  political  and  party 
excitement,  could  never  be  admitted  as  final  and  conclusive. 

When  the  report  had  been  made  by  the  joint  committee,  and  a  plan  had  been  laid 
before  that  committee,  no  declaration  was  made  that  the  clause  since  expunged  was 
necessary  to  prevent  this  construction  of  that  report.  The  words  had  been  introduced, 
not  for  the  purpose  of  making  the  report  conform  to  the  act  of  Congress,  but  because 
they  furnished  ^  ready  mode  of  disposing  of  the  Judicial  Department.  If  the  words 
had  not  been  used  in  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  nothing  was  more  proba- 
ble than  that  the  very  same  words  would  have  been  employed  in  the  report.  He  said, 
as  being  the  individual  who  had  draughted  the  article,  that  he  had  not  had  in  his  mind 
the  clause  of  the  Federal  Constitution  alluded  to,  and  its  construction  by  Congress. 
When  the  article  was  introduced,  it  had  not  been  for  the  purpose  of  acknowledging 
the  justice  of  that  construction,  but  to  prevent  the  possibility  of  it :  it  was  considered 
as  possible,  and  barely  possible,  that  such  a  construction  might  be  given. 

He  did  not  v>dsh  to  enter  at  all  into  the  argument.  All  must  have  witnessed  the  cau- 
tion with  which  he  had  avoided  doing  so.  But  he  said  freely,  that  the  present  Con- 
stitution ought  to  be  construed  in  its  words,  and  not  in  the  opinion  any  member 
might  have  expressed  upon  it.  They  entertained  different  opinions :  those  opinions 
were  not  to  regulate  the  construction  of  the  Constitution,  but  its  own  words  alone 
were  to  regulate  the  construction  of  it.  And  so  far  as  he  had  any  right  to  protest,  he 
did  protest  against  his  individual  construction,  in  any  mode,  being  engrafted  into  the 
Constitution.  Let  the  Constitution  speak  its  own  language,  and  be  construed  by 
those  whose  office  it  was  to  construe  it. 

Mr.  Tazewell  followed  Mr.  Marshall — and  expressed  an  exactly  opposite  opinion. 
He  vindicated  the  passage  of  the  law  for  abolishing  the  newly  appointed  Judges,  at 
the  very  close  of  Mr.  Adams's  administration.  He  contended  that  that  act  was  per- 
fectly constitutional  and  propex- — and  that  the  course  then  taken  by  Congress  had 
fixed  the  meaning  of  the  words  in  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States,  which  had 
been  copied  into  the  proposed  Constitution  of  Virginia. 

He  was  followed  by  Mr.  Johnson,  who  conceded  that  the  abolition  of  the  Judges  at 
the  commencement  of  Mr.  Jefferson's  administration,  however  objectionable  it  might 
seem  at  first,  had  been  sanctioned  by  the  acquiescence  of  the  people. 

Mr.  Giles  rose  in  reply  to  Mr.  Marshall : 

Concurring  in  the  belief,  that  the  interpretation  which  has  hitherto  been  put  on  the 
terms  of  the  Federal  Constitution,  will  be  put  on  the  same  terms,  if  used  in  the  Con- 
stitution we  are  now  making,  and  acting  on  that  presumption,  I  conceive  it  unneces- 
sary that  any  other  explanation  should  be  made,  and  hope  that  the  amendment  may 
be  withdrawn :  I  prefer  the  Constitution  as  it  now  stands. 

Although  I  have  paid  the  utmost  possible  attention  to  the  opinions  and  arguments 
of  the  gentleman  from  Richmond  (Mr.  Marshall.)  for  whom  I  entertain  the  highest 
respect  and  regard,  I  cannot  for  my  life  find  out  how  it  is  that  an  office  should  exist 
in  a  court,  while  the  court  itself  does  not  exist,  but  is  completely  functus  officio. 
Such  a  position  appears  to  me  to  be  a  perfect  contradiction ;  as  much  so,  as  it  would 
be  for  us  to  declare,  that  a  man  shall  enjoy  his  life  after  he  is  dead ;  and  the  effect  of 
one  declaration  would  be  much  the  same,  with  that  of  the  other.  The  proposition 
contains  a  contradiction  in  terms,  and  is  in  my  judgment  utterly  inadmissible. 

There  is  another  reason  which  confirms  me  in  my  opinion  as  to  what  will  be  the 
interpretation  put  upon  tliis  part  of  the  Constitution.  The  gentleman,  it  is  true,  says 
that  he  has  not  officially  examined  the  point ;  but  such  was  the  impression  on  his 
mind,  when  the  act  of  Congress  was  passed  which  limits  the  continuance  of  the 
Judge's  office,  to  the  existence  of  his  court.  Now,  I  have  given  the  utmost  attention 
to  tiiis  subject.  I  formed  an  opinion  at  the  time,  which  1  publicly  expressed.  I  have 
thought  of  it  a  thousand  times  since,  and  I  have  examined  every  act  passed  on  the 
subject  from  that  day  to  this,  and  I  have  no  more  doubt  now  than  I  had  then,  as  to 
the  true  interpretation  of  the  clause.  It  is  a  fundamental  principle,  which  reigns 
throughout  our  institutions,  that  compensation  and  services  should  correspond  to  each 
other.  The  compensation  of  a  Judge  is  paid  him,  not  for  his  good  behaviour,  but  for 
his  official  services. 

The  sensibility  of  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier,  (Mr.  Scott,)  on  the  subject  of  Ju- 
dicial independence,  is  so  very  great,  that  he  himself  supposes  it  may  be  morbid  in 
its  character,  and  I  have  no  doubt  that  it  is  so.  Nor  is  it  confined  to  that  gentleman 
alone :  it  extends  to  a  vast  many  others  who  seem  to  labour  under  the  same  morbid 
sensibihty  with  himself.    The  gentleman  insists,  that  by  the  Constitution  as  it  now 


DEBATES    OF    THE  CONVENTION. 


873 


stands,  the  independence  of  the  Judges  is  not  provided  for.  I  ani  of  a  different 
opinion.  I  am  prepared  to  go  as  far  as  any  gentleman  in  favour  of  the  independence 
of  the  Judiciary:  I  consider  independence  in  a  Judge  as  valuable  as  any  gentleman 
can  do ;  but  I  would  not  iiave  independence  extended  into  inviolability.  I  am  as  hos- 
tile to  that,  as  I  am  favourable  to  their  independence,  and  shall  always  be  so,  while 
republican  government  continues  to  be  founded  on  the  principles  of  responsibility. 
Sir,  what  do  gentlemen  want  ?  What  more  would  they  have  r  The  utmost  security 
is  given  that  a  Judge  shall  continue  to  receive  his  salary,  so  long  as  he  renders  Judi- 
cial services.  Ought  he  to  have  it  any  longer  :  Would  any  one  tliink  of  advancing 
the  same  claim  with  reference  to  any  other  officer  but  a  Judge  ?  Would  any  man 
say  that  in  a  repubhcan  government,  a  public  officer  is  to  receive  the  public  money  ^ 
any  longer  than  he  renders  service  to  the  public  Yet  that  is  the  amount  of  what  is 
now  claimed  in  behalf  of  the  Judges  of  Virginia  :  That  they  shall  receive  their  salary 
after  the  duty  of  their  offices  has  ceased.  A  Judge  when  out  of  office  is  no  more 
independent  than  any  other  citizen.  Being  firmly  convinced  that  such  not  only  will 
but  ought  to  be  the  construction  put  upon  the  Constitution  as  it  stands,  it  will  be  more 
acceptable  to  me,  if  the  gentleman  will  consent  to  witladraw  his  amendment. 

The  very  worthy  and  highly  respectable  gentleman  from  Richmond,  (Mr.  Mar- 
shall,) lays  much  stress  on  the  fact,  that  there  has  been  but  one  decision  by  the  Con- 
gress of  the  United  States,  giving  an  interpretation  to  the  language  of  the  Federal 
Constitution  as  to  tlig  tenure  of  the  Judicial  office.  He  says,  there  has  been  but  a  sin- 
gle decision;  but  the  gentleman  has  not  kept  his  eye  on  all  the  events  connected  with 
this  subject.  There  have  been  many  decisions  :  So  many,  that  the  point  has  always 
been  considered  by  me  as  completely  surrendered.  xA.pplications  for  compensation 
have,  again  and  again,  been  made,  and  have  been  rejected  over  and  over.  Has  not  our 
whole  Judiciary  establishment  been  going  on  upon  tliat  avowed  principle  ?  and  does 
it  not  exist  on  that  foundation  at  the  present  moment?  If  not,  on  what  principle 
does  it  rest Upon  none.  There  is  no  other  principle.  That  is  the  law  on  which 
the  entire  system  stands.  I  have  no  earthly  doubt  that  such  will  be  the  decision.  I 
think  indeed  it  is  highly  probable,  that  the  Judges  would  decide  differently.  But, 
thank  Grodl  the  decision  is  left  to  the  Legislature,  and  not  to  the  influence  of  that 
esprit  du  corps,  which  is  ever  found  to  exist  among  persons  holding  the  same  employ- 
ment, whether  they  be  Judijes  or  Councillors,  Consuls  or  Kings.  I  wish  that  the 
sense  of  the  Constitution  mav  be  decided  on  its  own  words,  and  on  the  experience 
of  the  effect  of  those  words  for  thirty  years.  It  will  be  settled,  I  doubt  not,  that  ac- 
cording to  the  existing  arrangement  the  Judsres  are  independent;  that  this  is  the  real 
definition  of  an  independent  Judiciary,  and^that  its  independence  is  as  abundantly 
secured  by  this  Constitution  as  it  ever  ought  to  be. 

Mr.  Marshall  observed,  that  the  present  was  not  the  first  example  which  had  oc- 
curred in  the  debates  of  this  Convention,  nor  was  it  likely  to  be  the  last  in  the  de- 
bates of  this  or  of  any  other  deUberative  Assembly,  where  gentlemen  held  opinions 
directly  opposite  to  each  other,  and  yet  each  side  thought  their  own  so  perfectly  clear 
as  not  to  admit  the  possibility  of  doubt.  But  declarations  of  such  perfect  confidence 
on  the  part  of  those  who  held  certain  opinions,  did  by  no  means  render  it  indispensa-  - 
hie  that  others  should  subscribe  to  the  same.  The  ultimate  decision  must  rest,  not 
on  the  confidence  of  conviction,  but  on  the  reason  of  the  case.  His  whole  wish  was, 
that  this  question  should  go  forth,  uninfluenced  by  the  opinion  of  any  individual:  let 
those,  whose  duty  it  was  to  settle  the  interpretation  of  the  Constitution,  decide  on  the 
Constitution  itself.  He  did  not  say  that  he  was  perfectly  clear  what  that  decision 
would  be,  but  he  wished  it  to  rest  on  the  opinions  held  at  the  time  by  those  who  made 
it,  and  who  were  responsible  for  such  opinions,  and  not  by  the  views  of  particular  in- 
dividuals in  this  Convention.  If  any  other  clause  was  requisite,  let  it  be  added. 
Whatever  weight  the  decision  of  Congress  in  1802  was  entitled  to  have,  let  it  have. 
But  let  not  the  sense  of  this  instrument  be  judged  of  by  the  opinions  of  individuals 
in  this  body.  He  had  already  stated  what  were  the  views  he  had  held  in  the  Judi- 
ciary Committee,  and  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  (Mr.  Johnson.)  had  stated  cor- 
rectly what  took  place  in  the  Select  Committee  :  the  two  clauses  adopted  by  the  Con- 
vention vrere  found  to  be  in  utter  repugnance,  and  therefore  the  Committee  had  re- 
solved to  omit  both,  and  report  the  article  in  the  form  which  it  now  assumes.  The 
question  now  before  the  House  had  once  been  decided  already,  but  he  did  not  wish 
to  prevent  the  decision  of  it  now. 

Mr.  Giles  expressed  his  hope,  that  the  gentleman  who  had  moved  the  present 
amendment,  (Mr.  Cabell.)  would  consent  to  withdraw  it.  The  gentleman  last  up  had 
assigned  the  best  of  reasons  why  it  had  been  omitted  by  the  Committee,  viz  :  that  it 
involved  a  palpable  contradiction  in  terms,  to  another  clause  in  the  same  instrument. 

Mr.  G.  declared  his  intention  to  vote  for  the  clause  with  the  amendment  rather  than 
reject  it :  but  repeated  tlie  expression  of  his  hope  Lhat  the  amendment  would  be  with- 
drawn. 

110 


/ 

/ 


874 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  Scott  said,  the  gentleman  from  Amelia  greatly  misconceived  him  if  he  under- 
stood him  to  say  that  he  presumed  tlie  sensibility  which  he  (Mr.  S.)  felt  on  this  sub- 
ject was  morbid.  He  had  said,  that  other  gentlemen  might  so  consider  it.  For  him- 
self, he  considered  it  healthful.  He  considered  the  insensibility  manifested  by  gen- 
tlemen on  the  other  side,  as  morbid.  Upon  the  question  under  consideration,  it  ap- 
peared that  the  members  of  the  Committee  differed.  The  gentleman  who  sat  near 
him,  concurred  in  opinion  with  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk.  [Mr.  Johnson  said, 
that  he  had  not  expressed  it  as  Ids  opinion,  that  that  was  the  correct  construction, 
but  that  it  was  the  construction  which  would  in  practice  be  put  upon  it :  he  did  not 
think  it  the  true  construction.]  Mr.  S.  said,  he  was  glad  to  hear  that  the  gentleman 
from  Augusta  agreed  with  him  as  to  the  true  construction  of  the  Constitution.  But 
it  appeared  that  a  doubt  rested  upon  it ;  and  he  hoped  one  way  or  other  that  doubt 
would  be  removed. 

Mr.  Cabell  addressed  the  Convention  as  follows : 

I  used  to  express  my  extreme  mortification  and  unfeigned  astonishment,  at  the  con- 
struction given  to  the  Constitution  as  reported  by  the  Select  Committee  to  the  House, 
by  the  venerable  and  learned  gentleman  from  the  city  of  Richmond,  It  must  be  with- 
iu  the  recollection  of  every  gentleman  present  that  it  was  on  my  motion,  that  the 
House  settled  the  question,  in  terms,  not  to  be  misunderstood,  that,  the  abolition  of  a 
court,  rieces.sarily  and  inevitably  carried  with  it  the  abolition  of  the  office,  and  of 
course  the  salary  of  the  Judge  of  such  court — and  that  by  a  most  decisive  majority, 
upon  a  call  of  the  a3'es  and  noes.  The  words  of  the  amendment,  taken  in  connec- 
tion with  that  portion  of  the  resolution,  imported  that  idea,  to  which  it  was  attached. 
The  whole  subject  was  then  debated,  by  gentlemen  of  great  eminence,  who  were  re- 
garded as  the  luminaries  of  constitutional  law,  that  such  was  its  fair,  natural,  and  ne- 
cessary construction,  as  it  went  from  the  House  to  the  Select  Committee.  But  now, 
Sir,  what  do  we  hear  from  the  yet  higher  authority  of  the  gentleman  from  the  city  of 
Richmond He  now  thinks,  that  the  fair  construction  of  the  Constitution  reported 
by  the  Select  Committee,  as  modified  by  them,  must  be,  that  notwithstanding  the  abo- 
htion  of  a  court,  the  Judge  thereof  will  still  retain  "  his  office,'''  and,  though  he  may 
have  no  duties  to  perform,  will  be  entitled  to  enjoy  his  salary.  I  ask,  Mr.  President, 
whether  it  is  consistent  with  the  honour  of  the  Committee,  or  of  the  House — [here 
the  Chair  called  to  order,]  to  which  Mr.  C.  replied — 1  mean.  Sir,  no  imputation  on 
the  House  or  the  Committee — but  what  I  meant  to  ask,  was,  whether  it  would  be 
consistent  with  the  honour  of  the  Committee  or  the  House,  after  the  latter  had,  in 
the  most  solemn  manner,  passed  affirmatively  upon  a  question,  and  sent  it  to  the 
Committee  for  the  revision  of  its  phraseology  merely — to  permit  an  important  and 
substantive  proposition,  asserting  a  great  principle,  applicable  in  all  time  to  come  to 
the  future  legislation  of  the  country  on  similar  subjects,  to  be  gotten  round  either  by 
leaving  it  out  altogether,  or  by  the  use  of  language  defeating  its  object  ?  1  earnestly 
trust  they  will  not.  It  is  perfectly  evident,  that  the  public  rnind  will  not  be  satisfied, 
and  that  it  ought  not  to  be.  If  the  construction  put  upon  this  article,  (the  25th,)  by 
the  three  last  named  gentlemen  should  prevail,  the  time  may,  and  in  all  human  pro- 
bability will  come,  when  the  people  will  have  saddled  upon  them,  not  a  battalion  only, 
but  an  army  of  civil  pensioners.  I  cannot  contemplate  such  a  state  of  things  with- 
out the  extremest  repugnance,  and  without  being  impelled  by  an  imperious  sense  of 
duty  to  my  constituents,  to  endeavour  to  avert  it,  by  all  the  means  in  my  power. 

Gentlemen  may  possibly  imagine,  that  my  course  on  this  subject,  is  dictated  by 
some  private  grief,  some  pique  or  prejudice  against  the  Judges,  or  some  of  them.  God 
forbid  that  such  should  be  the  fact !  So  far  from  this  being  the  case.  Sir,  there  sits  on 
the  bench  of  the  highest  tribunal  in  this  State,  a  gentleman  endeared  to  me  by 
every  tie,  that  can  sanctify  the  affections  of  man.  I  cannot,  nevertheless,  through 
tenderness  to  the  gentlemen,  for  many  of  whom  I  feel  the  greatest  personal  respect, 
who  happen  to  occupy  at  present  the  seats  of  justice,  consent  to  see  entailed  upon 
my  country,  the  most  grievous  and  oppressive  judicial  system.  Is  it  not  a  fact,  per- 
fectly notorious,  that  in  some  parts  of  the  State,  for  months  and  years,  the  temples  of 
justice  have  been  closed That  the  supplications  of  the  widow — the  cries  of  the  or- 
phan, and  claims  of  the  poor,  liave  passed  unheard  and  unheeded  ?  Yes,  Sir,  it  is  an 
indisputable  fact,  that  in  numerous  instances,  the  delays  of  justice  have  amounted  to 
a  denial  of  it.  This  staj;e  of  things  has  continued  too  long.  It  is  a  grievance  too  in- 
tolerable to  be  patiently  borne.  This  thing  "  was  not  done  in  a  corner" — it  is  noto- 
rious. Is  it  wise  then,  to  tie  up  the  hands  of  the  Legislature To  restrain  the  power 
of  the  representatives  of  the  people,  to  modify  or  abolish,  from  time  to  time,  and  to 
je-organize  the  Courts  of  Justice,  in  such  manner  as  the  public  good  may  require, 
without  creating  a  necessity  for  continuing,  at  the  same  time,  a  privileged  order — a 
band  of  civil  pensioners — a  set  of  useless  or  incompetent  officers — enjoying  salaries 
at  the  public  expense,  without  rendering  an  equivalent  service This,  it  appears  to 
me,  ia  carrying  the  idea  of  Judicial  independence,  to  a  most  pernicious  extreme, 
while  it  betrays  the  want  of  a  just  confidence  in  the  wisdom  and  integrity  of  the  re- 


DEBATES  OF 


THE 


CONVENTION. 


875 


presentatives  of  the  people.  For  myself.  1  deem  it  mj  duty,  so  far  as  may  depend 
upon  me,  to  secure  to  the  people,  either  directly  or  by  their  representatiyes.  a  real, 
not  a  nominal  responsibility  of  their  officers,  in  all  the  departments  of  their  Goyern- 
raent.  To  my  mind,  independeiice  is  one  thing — irresponsibiiity  is  another,  and  quite 
a  different  thing.  You  create  a  responsibility  of  the  omcers.  in  all  the  departments, 
the  Judicial  only  excepted.  Why  this  distinction .-  I  know  of  nothing  in  the  situation, 
or  functions  of  a  Judicial,  any  more  than  in  that  of  any  other  officer,  requirinor  him 
only  to  be  placed  aboye  the  reach  of  the  laws,  ordinary  or  extraordinary.  I  asli  par- 
don of  the  House,  for  haying  so  unexpected!}'  to  myself,  trespassed  thus  ions'  on  its 
attention. 

ZVIr.  Cabell  then  moyed  to  add  to  the  twenty-third  article  in  these  words  : 
Xo  modification  or  abolition  of  any  court,  shall  be  construed  to  deprive  any  Judge 
of  his  office  :  but  such  Judge  shall  perform  any  Judicial  duties  which  the  Legislature 
shall  assign  him;  but  if  no  Judicial  duties  are.  assigned  him  by  the  Legislature,  he 
shall  receive  no  salary  in  virtue  of  such  office."' 

Mr.  Cabell's  remarks  in  support  of  his  amendment : 

I  feel  great  embarrassment  at  obtruding  m.yself  on  the  attention  of  the  House  on 
any  question,  especially  this,  (the  Judiciary.)  in  relation  to  which,  perhaps,  more  than 
any  other  department  of  the  Government,  I  might  naturally  suspect  miyself  of  want  of 
information.  It  was  not  my  fortune,  Sir.  to  be  brought  up  at  the  feet  of  Gamaliel. 
Yet,  1  cannot  be  insensible  to  the  effects  resulting  from  the  existence  of  a  doubt,  on 
this  important  question.  And  I  must  confess  that  it  is  not  a  little  extraordinary  and 
surprising  to  me,  to  obserye  that  gentlemen  who  have  hitherto  acted  with  me  on  this 
subject,  and  to  whose  abilities,  my  amendment  to  the  original  resolution  of  the  Com- 
mittee of  the  Whole  was  mainh'  indebted  for  its  passage,  should  now  be  willing  to 
see  the  same  doubt  remain.  It  was  maintained  on  this  floor  by  gentlemen  of  great 
ability,  that  the  fair  construction  of  the  Constitution  as  reported  to  the  House  by  the 
Select  Committee,  went  to  the  abohtion  of  the  q§ice  of  Judge,  and  consequently,  of 
the  salary,  upon  the  abolition  of  the  court.  In  tlie  expression  of  that  opinion,  you, 
Mr.  President,  and  tlie  gentleman  from  Norfolk,  (Mr.  Tazewell,)  and  the  gentleman 
from  Amelia,  (Gov.  Giles.)  concurred.  Those  opinions  thus  publiclj'  given,  were 
satisfactory  to  the  House,  and  to  me,  and  it  was  at  their  instance,  that  I  withdrew  an 
amendment  which  I  had  offiired  to  the  twenty-second  article  of  the  Constitution.  But, 
now.  Sir,  when  the  able  gentleman  from  Fauquier,  (Mr.  Scott.)  declares  that  he  dis- 
sents from  that  opinion — when  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  (Mr.  Johnson.)  declares 
it,  as  his  opinion,  that  the  act  of  Congress  of  1502,  was  an  erroneous  interpretation 
of  the  same  words  in  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States  :  and  when,  above  all,  the 
Chief  Justice  of  the  Supreme  Court  of  the  L'nited  States  declares  in  substance,  the 
same  opinion,  can  gentlemen  deem  it  inexpedient  to  adopt  an  amendment  which 
w^iU  definitively  settle  the  proper  construction  .'  I  trust  not.  And  I  earnestly  hope  that 
some  gentleman,  more  able  than  myself,  more  experienced  and  disciplined  on  legal 
questions,  and  more  conversant  with  the  construction  of  Constitutional  law,  will  move 
such  an  amendment  to  the  Constitution  as  it  came  to  the  House  from  the  hands  of 
the  Select  Committee,  as  v.-ili  forever  put  this  question  to  rest.  If  no  other  gentleman 
will  make  such  motion,  I  wiU,  in  the  hope  of  effecting  this  object,  moye  as  an 
amendment  the  words  heretofore  adopted  by  the  House  on  my  motion. 

ISlx.  Tazewell  wished  to  say  one  word :  It  will  be  recollected  by  the  Convention 
that  he  had  given  his  support  on  a  former  occasion  to  an  amendment  substantially  the 
same  as  that  now  offered.  When  the  resolution  was  introduced  a  second  time,  the 
same  gentleman  offered  the  amendment  which  he  now  proposed,  and  it  was  rejected 
by  the  House. 

Mr.  Cabell  begged  leave  to  correct  this  statement.  No  vote  had  been  taken  on  this 
specific  proposition :  he  had  withdrawn  this,  and  offered  another.  It  was  on  that 
other,  that  the  House  had  passed,  but  not  on  the  present  amendment. 

Mr.  Tazewell  rephed.  the  other  amendment  might  have  been  somewhat  different 
in  form,  but  its  object  and  its  effect  were  substantially  the  same  with  this ;  and  it  was 
negatived  by  a  large  majority.  Mr.  T.  said  he  had  voted  with  the  majority  on  that 
occasion,  and  should  pursue  the  same  course  now,  by  voting  against  the  present 
amendment.  In  statincr  his  reasons,  he  should  not  detain  the  Convention  very  long, 
certainly  not  so  longr  as  some  gentlemen  had  detained  them  on  questions  of  less  im- 
portance. When  the  original  resolution  was  introduced  by  the  Judiciary  Committee, 
the  venerable  chairman  of  that  Committee  said,  that  the  words  of  the  resolution  had 
been  employed  expressly  to  guard  against  the  construction  which  had  been  given 
to  the  Fe^deral  Constitution  on  this  subject.  The  gentleman  from  Pittsylvania  had 
then  offered  this  amendment  with  a  view  to  neutradize  the  effect  of  the  words  as  rer 
ported,  and  it  had  carried  :  the  whole  was  then  referred  to  a  Select  Committee  ;  that 
Committee  found  that  certain  words  had  been  introduced  into  this  Constitution  which 
were  taken  literally  from  another,  where  they  had  received  a  fixed  and  settled  con- 
-traction.    They  t"hen  found  a  clause  added,  that  was  intended  to  prevent  that  con= 


876 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


struction,  and  then  a  third  clause  which  went  to  neutrahze  the  effect  of  the  second. 
Why  should  the  instrument  be  encumbered  with  two  paragraphs  which  directly  con- 
tradicted each  other  ?  But  this  was  not  all.  If  those  clauses  were  incorporated,  other 
effects  must  follow,  which  Mr.  T.  was  not  prepared  to  sanction.  You  admit,  said  he, 
the  absurdity,  (I  beg  pardon  for  employing  the  term,)  the  impossibility  that  the  officer 
should  continue  as  such,  after  the  abolition  of  his  office ;  that  the  office  of  the  Judge 
shall  continue,  after  the  tribunal  to  which  he  is  attached  is  abolished.  It  is  a  doctrine 
I  cannot  conceive,  and  never  can  consent  to  admit,  and  the  clause  whicli  declares  it 
is  at  war  with  other  powers  in  the  instrument.  By  one  clause  you  declare  that  the 
compensation  of  a  Judge  shall  not  be  diminished  during  his  continuance  in  office  ;  by 
a  second  clause  you  declare  that  his  office  shall  remain  after  his  court  is  abolished  ; 
and  then  by  a  third  you  say,  that  though  his  office  remains,  his  compensation  shall 
not  continue,  unless  under  certain  conditions.  I  cannot  consent  to  these  contradic- 
tions, and  I  shall  therefore  vote  against  the  amendment :  yet  I  favour  the  object  the 
gentleman  has  in  view,  and  ]  am  very  sure  that  without  the  amendment,  that  object 
must  be  accomplished  by  the  construction  that  will  be  put  upon  the  Constitution. 

Mr.  Scott  now  offered  an  amendment  to  the  amendment,  by  which  he  proposed  to 
strike  out  the  last  clause  and  insert  the  following  :  "  Unless  such  court  be  abolished 
by  the  concurrence  of  two-thirds  of  the  General  Assembly." 

Mr.  Claytor  demanded  a  division  of  the  question  on  striking  out  and  inserting,  and 
it  was  divided  accordingly. 

Mr.  Marshall  submitted  to  his  friend  from  Fauquier,  (Mr.  Scott,)  whether  his 
amendment  would  not  produce  an  effect  which  he  did  not  contemplate  ?  A  case  might 
occur,  where  a  majority  of  the  Legislature  desired  to  abolish  a  court,  not  out  of  any 
hostility  to  the  Judge,  but  because  they  thought  its  abolition  would  promote  the  pub- 
lic good  :  the  amendment  would  prevent  such  a  measure,  unless  two-thirds  of  both 
Houses  could  be  obtained  in  its  favour. 

Mr.  Scott  replied  that  his  object  was,  to  put  a  check  upon  the  Legislature  in  de- 
priving a  Judge  of  his  office  by  the  abolition  of  his  court. 

Mr.  Stanard  proposed  to  modify  Mr.  Scott's  amendment  by  striking  out  the  words 

modification  or." 

Mr.  Scott  accepted  the  amendment. 

Mr.  Claytor  asked  the  ayes  and  noes  on  the  amendment  as  thus  modified. 

Mr.  Giles  said,  it  would  be  with  great  reluctance  he  should  be  compelled  to  vote. 
He  thought  the  remarks  of  the  gentleman  from  Norfolk,  (Mr.  Tazewell,)  had  great 
force,  yet  if  the  mover  would  not  consent  to  withdraw  his  amendment,  he  should  be 
compelled  to  vote  in  its  favour. 

Mr.  Cabell  thereupon  expressed  his  willingness  to  withdraw  his  amendment  with 
the  consent  of  the  Convention. 

Mr.  Stanard  objecting, 

The  question  was  put  on  granting  leave,  and  being  carried, 
Mr.  Cabell  withdrew  his  amendment. 

Mr.  Scott  thereupon,  moved  the  following,  to  be  inserted  as  a  substantive  article  in 
the  Constitution  : 

"  No  law  abolishing  any  court  shall  be  construed  to  deprive  a  Judge  thereof  of  his 
office,  unless  two-thirds  of  the  members  of  each  House  present,  concur  in  the  passage 
thereof :  But  the  Legislature  may  assign  other  duties  to  the  Judges  of  courts  abolished 
by  any  law  enacted  by  less  than  two-thirds  of  the  members  of  each  House  present." 

Mr.  Giles  :  Is  it  possible  that  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier  can  conceive  such  an 
article  necessary  to  the  independence  of  the  Judges  ?  On  all  other  subjects  a  majority 
of  the  Legislature  is  sufficient  for  action  ;  but  here,  after  clogging  the  removal  of  a 
Judge  by  all  possible  impediments,  it  is  now  proposed  that  in  an  act  of  ordinary  legis- 
lation, intended  to  suit  the  public  institutions  to  the  changing  state  of  the  country, 
the  assent  of  two-thirds  of  both  Houses  is  to  be  required.  In  the  modification  of  the 
courts,  it  may  become  necessary  to  lessen  the  number  of  the  Judges  and  thus  leave 
supernumeraries ;  yet  under  the  idea  of  supporting  the  independence  of  the  Judges, 
this  cannot  be  done  unless  two-tliirds  of  both  Houses  concur.  A  bare  majority  of  the 
Legislature  may  not  organize  a  court,  so  as  to  adapt  it  to  the  better  administration  of 
the  purposes  of  justice.  If  the  Convention  are  ready  for  that,  God  knows  where 
they  will  stop.  If  such  partiality  exist  in  the  House  toward  the  Judges,  that  in  order 
to  save  them  the  business  of  the  country  must  not  go  on,  nothing  more  is  to  be  done. 
But  this  is  not  independence  ;  it  is  privilege. 

Mr.  Scott  said,  there  was  not  a  shadow  of  ground  for  such  a  construction.  The  ar- 
ticle he  had  proposed,  did  not  require  the  assent  of  two-thirds  of  the  Legislature  for 
the  abolition  of  a  court.  It  merely  provided  that  if  the  court  should  be  abolished  by  a 
vote  of  less  than  two-thirds  of  both  Houses,  such  abohtion  should  not  deprive  the 
Judge  of  his  office  :  the  court  might  go,  but  the  Judge  would  remain,  and  be  ready  to 
receive  such  other  duties  as  the  Legislature  might  assign  him.  If  tlaey  neglected  to 
assign  him.  any,  his  idleness  would  not  be  his  fault,  but  theirs.    Mr.  S.  said  his  whole 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


877 


purpose  was,  that  it  should  require  two-thirds  of  the  whole  Legislature,  to  destroy 
the  office  of  a  Judge. 

Mr.  Randolph  said,  he  would  endeavour  to  state  as  succinctly  as  possible  the  reasons 
why  he  should  vote  in  favour  of  the  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Fauquier.  At 
the  very  commencement  of  my  public  life,  or  nearly  so,  I  v.-as  called  to  give  a  deci- 
sion on  the  construction  of  that  clause  in  the  Federal  Constitution  which  relates  to 
the  tenure  of  the  Judicial  office ;  and  I  am  happy  to  ffiid,  that  after  the  lapse  of  thirty 
years,  I  remain  precisely  of  the  same  opinion  that  I  then  held.  If  a  law  should  be 
passed  bona  fide  for  the  abolition  of  a  court,  wliich  was  a  nuisance,  and  ought  to  be 
abolished — Islx.  R.  said  he  considered  such  a  lav/  as  no  infringement  of  Judicial  in- 
dependence :  but,  if  the  lavr  was  enacted  mala  fide  and  abolished  a  useful  court,  for 
the  purpose  of  getting  rid  of  the  Judge  who  presided  in  it,  such  a  law  was  undoubt- 
edly a  violation  of  that  independence  :  just  as  the  killing  of  a  man  might  be  murder 
or  not,  according  to  the  intention,  the  quo  anhno  with  wliich  it  was  done.  He  said, 
that  it  could  not  be  necessary  to  recount  to  the  gentleman  who  occupied  the  Chair, 
(Mr.  Barbour.)  the  history  of  the  decision  which  was  given  in  Congress,  as  to  the 
true  intent  and  meaning  of  this  part  of  the  Federal  Constitution.  Parties  had  never 
run  higher  than  at  the  close  of  the  administration  of  the  elder  Adams,  and  the  com- 
mencement of  that  of  Mr.  Jefferson.  After  effiDrts  the  most  unparalleled,  Mr.  Adams 
was  ejected  from  power,  and  the  downfall  of  the  party  attached  to  him  was  near  at 
hand.  After  this  decision  by  the  American  people,  when  they  were  compelled  to 
perceive  that  the  kingdom  was  passing  from  them,  in  the  last  agonies  and  throes  of 
dissolution,  they  cast  about  them  to  make  some  provision  for  the  broken  down  hacks 
of  the  party :  and  at  midnight,  and  after  midnight  on  the  last  day  of  Mr.  Adams's  ad- 
ministration, a  batch  of  Judges  was  created,  and  bequeathed  as  a  legacy  to  those  who 
followed.  The  succeeding  party  on  coming  into  power,  found  that  They  must  consult 
the  construction  of  the  Constitution  to  prevent  the  recurrence  of  such  a  practice  ;  be- 
cause, if  the  construction  should  be  allowed  under  which  this  had  been  done,  it  would 
enable  every  palitical  part}-,  having  three  months  notice,  of  their  departure  from  the 
helm  of  affairs,  to  provide  for  themselves,  and  their  adherents,  by  getting  up  a  Judi- 
ciary S3'5tem,  which  would  be  irrevocable ;.  a  city  of  refuge  v\"here  they  would  be 
safe  from  all  approach  of  danger.  To  avoid  such  a  result,  it  became  necessary  to 
abolish  the  system  which  was  then  believed  to  be  injurious,  and  which  experience  has 
proved  to  be  unnecessary.  Mr.  R.  said,  that  he  was  one  of  those  who  voted  for  the 
decision  which  declared  thaTt  the  court  might  be  abolished  bona  fide,  and  that  the  of- 
fice of  the  Judge  should  cease  with  it.  Mr.  R.  said,  there  was  no  cause  for  appre- 
hending a  similar  abuse  of  power  on  the  part  of  the  Legislature  of  Virginia,  and  pro- 
ceeded to  give  his  reasons  for  this  opinion.  He  remarked,  that  in  political  faith,  as 
in  religious  faith,  no  man  could  tell  what  might  be  believed  hereafter,  and  he  saw  a 
good  reason  for  making  a  distinction  on  this  subject,  between  the  Legislature  of  a 
State,  and  that  of  the  Union.  It  was  agreed  on  all  hands  that  the  mere  modification 
of  a  court  did  not  abolish  the  office  of  a  Judge,  and  the  Legislature  was  left  free  in 
that  matter  to  play  the  whole  gamut :  the}-  might  modify  and  re-modify  to  their 
heart's  content,  until  the  courts  became  as  uncertain  as  the  law.  But  such  a  state  of 
things  could  never  occur,  as  that  a  party  having  timely  notice  that  they  must  go  out 
of  power,  should  make  use  of  the  Judiciary  departaaent  to  make  provision  for  tliem- 
selves  and  their  friends.  But  granting,  that  such  aineasure  should  ever  be  attempted, 
could  there  be  the  least  doubt  that  a  court  got  up  for  such  an  end,  v.-ould  find  two- 
thirds  of  the  Legislature  prepared  to  abolish  it.'  There  could  be  no  such  doubt.  Un- 
der the  proposed  arrangement,  tiiere  could  be  as  little  danger  that  a  court  would  be 
abolished,  for  the  purpose  of  getting  rid  of  a  Judge.  Some  confidence  must  be  re- 
posed in  the  Legislature.  Under  the  Constitution  at  present  in  force,  that  body  had 
ftill  power  to  abolish  and  regulate  the  courts  ad  libitum.  The  whole  purpose  of  the 
gentleman's  proposition,  as  he  understood  it,  was  to  prevent  them  from  taking  indirect 
and  undue  means  to  get  rid  of  an  obnoxious  Judge.  Under  this  impression,  he  accepted 
with  perfect  cheerfulness  and  heartiness,  the  amendment  proposed  by  the  gentleman 
from  Fauquier. 

]Mr.  Coalter  said,  that  he  had  been  opposed  in  sentiment  to  the  gentleman  from 
Augusta,  to  the  gentleman  from  Amelia  and  the  gentleman  from  i^Horfolk,  as  to  the 
position  in  which  the  Constitution  stood,  and  as  to  the  construction  v.'hich  was  likely 
to  be  oiven  it :  he  had  then  determined  to  give  his  reasons  why  he  could  not  vote  for 
it ;  but  as  lonof  as  there  was  life  there  was  hope,  and  he  trusted  he  should  be  allowed 
briefly  to  state  his  sentiments  at  this  time. 

Mr.  C.  then  said,  Mr.  President :  I  came  here  this  morning  prepared  to  vote  against 
the  passage  of  the  Constitution  to  a  third  reading,  not  knovring.  or  having  the  least 
idea  that  the  amendment,  now  under  consideration,  would  be  offered. 

One  of  the  grounds  of  my  intended  vote  being  now  under  consideration  ;  and  in 
as  much  as  there  is  hope,  as  long  as  life  lasts,  I  will  now,  briefly  as  I  can,  submit  my 


873 


DEBATES   OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


views  on  this  subject,  hoping  they  may  have  some  effect  on  the  question  before  us  ; 
if  not,  they  will  stand  in  print,  as  the  reasons  for  my  final  vote. 

I  never  can  vote  for  a  Constitution,  which  shall  provide  for  a  hatch,  or  litter  of 
Judges — (terms  which  may  be  very  appropriate  to  some  future  set  of  Judges,)  who 
are  to  hold  their  offices  at  the  mere  icill  of  the  Legislature — who  may  be  put  out  of 
existence  by  that  body,  either  by  sinking  the  boat  under  them,  and  drowning  them — 
by  starvation — cruel  and  inhuman  abuse  and  destruction  of  character,  or  by  any  other 
wilful  and  deliberate  slaying. 

As  to  the  present  incumbents  being  turned  out  by  this  body,  unless  that  is  neces- 
sary to  give  effect  to  the  new  Constitution,  I  give  no  vote,  and  say  nothing,  except 
that  if  it  inflicts  no  wound  on  the  State,  it  inflicts  none  on  me  which  I  would  avoid 
hy  turning  on  my  heel. 

But  1  have  been  alarmed  for  my  country  from  the  moment  I  was  told  that,  in  future, 
I  am  to  respond  to  another  tribunal  than  God  and  my  conscience. 

If  I  am  corrupt,  unmindful  of  my  duty,  and  unfaithful  to  my  oath ;  if  I  commit 
any  crime,  I  have  neither  God  nor  my  conscience  with  me  ;  and  my  country  must 
punish  me,  when  I  divn.  fairly  convicted.  This  is  my  situation  under  the  present  Con- 
stitution. 

I  am  now  advised,  though,  that  Judges  may  become  odious  to  the  people  and  their 
representatives,  and  they  must  be  subject  to  be  turned  out  by  those  representatives, 
as  they  may  by  the  people  ;  and  that  a  responsible  Judiciary,  in  this  sense  of  the  term, 
may  nevertheless  be  an  independent  Judiciary. 

This  may  be  according  to  the  march  of  mind,  and  the  true  republican  principle,  as 
understood  in  these  latter  days. 

Our  ancestors  did  not  think  so,  and  provided  for  no  such  case  in  the  Constitution 
they  made  for  us. 

When  I  was  a  boy,  there  was  a  book  in  use  called  Common  Sense.  It  was  read  at 
meeting-houses  on  the  Lord's  day. 

I  well  recollect  when,  at  the  beginning  of  the  revolutionary  war,  some  one  got  on 
a  stump,  between  sermons,  and  read  Common  Sense  to  the  people. 

When  I  advanced  in  life,  about  the  time  of  the  French  Revolution,  there  was  ano- 
ther book,  read  by  some,  called  the  .^ge  of  Reason.  This  was  not  read  on  Sundays  I 
believe,  except  by  such  as  would  not  object  to  read  the  cards  on  Sundays. 

I  have  lived  in  this  Jlge  of  Reason,  and  yet  I  have  some  distrust  in  the  doctrines  of 
the  March  of  Mind  that  has  taken  place  since  the  days  of  Common  Sense. 

Are  we  to  recommend  this  Constitution  to  the  people  by  the  arguments  used  here.-* 

That  our  Henrys  and  Pages,  and  Taylors,  and  Nicholases,  and  Pendletons,  and  Ma- 
sons and  Wythes,  and  a  host  beside,  were  aristocrats?  and  that  our  Judiciary,  except 
the  County  Courts,  have  become  so  odious,  as  that  they  must  not  only  be  cashiered, 
but  during  all  future  time  put  under  the  ban  of  the  empire  ? 

I  don't  think  the  people  are  yet  mad  enough,  either  to  believe  these  things,  or  to 
concur  in  the  result. 

A  number  of  honourable  men  of  this  body,  (not  so  numerous  it  is  true,  as  I  ex- 
pected and  feared,  considering  the  high  respectabihty  of  the  quarter,  from  which  the 
proposition  came)  have  thougTit,  that  it  was  a  necessary  part  of  the  present  scheme, 
to  call  Judges  to  render  a  daily  account  on  oath,  why  they  were  not  in  court  on  such 
and  such  days,  &c.  Whether  sfteh  a  provision,  in  prospect  of  some  future  Judiciary, 
may  be  necessary,  I  know  not.  But  if  the  conduct  of  the  present  Judges  are  sup- 
posed to  deserve  the  implied  censure  contained  in  that  proposition,  it  is  no  wonder 
they  should  be  in  the  odour  which  it  indicates.  I  have  heretofore  denied,  so  far  as 
-»  the  court  I  belong  to  is  concerned,  the  justice  of  any  such  charge  ;  but  if  the  proposed 
Constitution  contemplates  a  Judiciary,  which,  in  the  opinion  of  honest  men,  requires 
such  a  clause  as  that,  to  carry  its  principles  into  practice,  I  can't  think,  until  I  see  it, 
that  the  people  will  approve  of  it. 

The  course  which  this  subject  has  taken  here,  is  well  calculated  to  make  that 
branch  of  our  Government,  which  has  the  least  chance  of  defending  itself  against 
groundless  clamour,  odious  to  the  people,  and  to  destroy  their  confidence  in,  and  re- 
spect for  them ;  and  what  is  the  consequence 

Every  Judge  who  will  sit  in  the  seat  of  justice  under  such  a  Constitution,  will 
know  and  feel,  that  when  he  decides  against  a  man,  in  any  case  in  which  his  motives 
may  be  misconstrued,  he  does  so  at  the  hazard  of  being  suspected  of  want  of  inte- 
grity. The  party  may  have  some  right  to  think,  and  in  the  bitterness  of  his  heart 
may  say,  that  fellow  dared  not  to  do  me  justice.  The  fear  for  the  security  of  his  re- 
putation, of  his  feelings,  and  even  of  his  bread  itself,  has  perverted  the  pure  stream 
of  justice.  However  just  and  pure  the  administration  of  justice  may  be,  it  is  not 
considered  as  justice  by  him  who  has  any  cause  to  suspect  its  purity. 

I  am  still  more  alarmed,  when  I  hear  it  intimated  here,  that  Judges,  when  they  be- 
come odious,  can  no  longer  be  useful,  and  therefore  ought  to  be  dismissed.    This,  too, 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


879 


in  the  face  of  so  many  cases,  vrell  known  to  this  body,  in  which  honest  and  honorable 
Judcres  have  for  a  time  been  odious. 

In  how  many  ways  may  not  Judges  become  odious,  and  during  the  excitement  of 
the  moment,  be  irretrievably  ruined,  if  they  can  be  acted  on  by  a  body  to  whom  they 
are  made  odious,  if  that  body  lias  it  in  its  power  to  act  during  the  heat  of  the  moment  1 

Sometimes  he  offends  the  prominent  members  of  the  bar,  as  was  the  case  of  Judge 
Chase  and  others.  So.  too,  if  he  opposes  the  Legislature  in  any  favourite  measure, 
by  declaring  a  liw  uncoiistitidion-al ;  or  he  may  offend  the  other  party,  by  declaring  it 
constitniionat.  Sometimes  the  Judges  become  so  by  a  leaning,  as  is  supposed,  to  Fe- 
deral usurpation — and  the  day  may  come — I  think  I  see  its  dawn — when  they  will 
become  equally  so,  because  tiiey  go  too  far  for  State  Rights.  iVay,  I  understood  my 
friend  from  Ciiesterfield,  who  has  borne  honourable  testimony  in  favour  of  the  Judges, 
to  insinuate,  that  perhaps  on  some  occasions,  we  may  have  done  wrong  in  meddling 
icith  politics. 

1  have  had  little  to  do  on  that  subject,  except  in  Presidential  elections.  It  is  true, 
I  have  had  my  finger  in  that  delicious  pie  more  than  once — I  have  been  a  member  of 
a  Correspondmg  Committee  in  three  cases,  I  think.  In  two  of  them,  however,  I  was 
fortunate  enough  to  be  appointed  by  the  Legislative  Caucus. 

In  the  last,  bv  tlie  Convention  to  form  an  Anti-Jackson  ticket.  In  one  of  the  for- 
mer, that  of  Clay.  Crawford  &-  Co.  I  was  against  the  whole  set.  They  began  the 
electioneering  campaign  too  soon  for  my  taste;  but,  in  a  choice  of  evils,  I  was  for 
Crawford.  In  the  late  affair — or  affray,  if  that  is  a  better  term,  I  might  have  been  in 
the  Convention  itself;  but,  I  informed  my  old  friends  in  Pvockbridge,  who  proposed 
to  confer  that  honor  on  me,  that  I  was  again  opposed  to  both,  and  would,  even  at  that 
late  day,  do  my  best  to  oppose  both,  by  offering  some  third  man ;  that  I  was  tired  of 
a  choice  between  evils ;  and  though  I  had  that  choice,  yet  as  I  could  see  no  great  dif- 
ference, in  political  principle,  between  the  candidates,  I  wished  Virginia  to  stand  erect 
and  firm  in  her  principles,  and  to  leave  it  to  others  to  make  that  choice  for  us,  if  they 
would  not  come  over  to  a  positive  good.  Who  I  will  be  for  next,  must  noic  depend 
much,  as  is  perceived,  on  the  opinion  of  the  Legislature.  I  hope  no  man  will  con- 
sider me  so  ineffably  stupid,  as  to  risque  my  bread  for  such  trifles  as  these. 

I  may  have  thought,  that  to  elect  one  man  would  be  a  curse  to  the  nation  :  but,  I 
have  a  right  to  change  that  opinion.  I  may  even  honestly  change  it — and  to  begin 
my  electioneering  course  in  time,  I  think  it  not  impossible,  that  I  may  be  found  on 
the  side  of  the  Hero  ;  with  liberty,  however,  to  change  my  course  on  proper  occasion 
and  due  conviction.  I  was  for  him,  (with  the  exception  of  the  case  of  the  Governor 
of  Georgia,  and  some  other  trifling  matters)  in  his  wars,  although  others,  who  honestly 
supported  him  as  President,  then  thought  he  was  little  better  than  a  heathen  and  mur- 
derer. Z\\y  ancient  regard  for  him  is  reviving  ;  and  if  he  once  swims  across  the  Tiber, 
with  his  batch  of  Editors  round  his  neck,  I  may  again  rally  in  his  ranks.  If  he  can 
do  that,  he  will  be  greater  than  Caesar :  he  would  have  gone  to  the  bottom  with  his 
armour  on,  but  for  his  friend.  If  he  redeems  that  evil  day,  and  I  trust  he  will  do  that, 
and  much  more  good  for  his  country,  I  may  vote  for  him  as  a  positive  good.  I  wish 
no  more  choices  between  evils.  Seriously,  though,  I  am  opposed  to  Judges  being  thrown 
into  a  situation  in  which  they  may  be  brought  into  a  particular  odour,  by  exercising 
the  right  of  every  freeman. 

Hitherto,  having  nothing  further  to  hope  for  from  the  Government,  and  having 
nothing  to  fear  from  the  Government,  except  when  they  had  an  equal  right  to  fear 
their  God  and  their  consciences,  they  have  acted,  I  hope,  as  upright  and  independent 
men.  If  they  are  to  become  odious  in  these  and  a  thousand  other  ways,  and  to  be 
turned  out  as  consequently  useless,  although  they  may  be  perfectly  honest,  I  can  only 
compare  their  situation  to  that  of  a  witch  in  former  days.  The  way  she  was  to  be 
tried,  I  have  been  told,  was  to  throw  her  into  a  river.  If  she  swam  out,  she  was  a 
witch,  and  was  burnt ;  for,  nothing  but  witchcraft  could  have  saved  her.  If  she  went 
to  the  bottom,  whether  dragged  there  by  the  fiends  who  had  laid  a  snare,  and  had 
tempted  her  to  sell  her  conscience  and  soul,  or  because  she  was  an  honest  woman, 
^  mattered  not — she  only  went  to  her  last  home  a  few  hours  before  her  time. 

As  the  Constitution  before  us  now  stands,  the  whole  hatch  of  Judges  may  be  turned 
out  by  a  majority  of  a  quorum,  by  a  repeal  of  the  law;  and  under  a  similar  law,  re- 
enacted  the  next  day,  those  of  the  true  faith  re-instated.  Or,  you  may  vote  out  a 
Judge,  two-thirds  of  a  quorum  concurring,  whether  he  is  merely  odious  only,  or  whe- 
ther some  high  crime  is  imputed  to  him — or  you  may  turn  him  out,  for  the  latter,  by 
impeachment.  It  may  be  easier  to  vote  him  out,  than  to  give  him  a  fair  trial ;  the 
responsibility  for  such  an  act  is  more  decided.  There  are  no  Judges  sworn  in  that 
case  :  they  don't  sit  in  the  judgment  seat,  but  in  a  tumultuary  assembly,  with  this 
additional  circumstance,  that  the  accusing  body  becomes  both  Judge  and  Jury — the 
Bill  of  Rights,  which  says,  that  a  man  has  a  right  to  be  confronted  icith  his  accusers, 
to  the  contrary  notwithstanding. 


880 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


If  it  be  said,  that  this  will  compel  an  impeachment  for  an  impeachable  offence,  I 
ask  why  put  into  our  Constitution  a  clause  opposed  to  that  Bill  of  Rights,  on  which 
it  is  founded?  Make  a  Judge  only  impeachable  for  crime,  and  give  him  a  fair  trial 
when  and  where  you  will. 

If  he  is  superannuated,  or  otherwise  unable  to  discharge  his  duties,  or  shall  be 
negligent  or  lazy  in  the  discharge  of  them,  which  may  arise  from  habit,  not  involving 
moral  turpitude,  or  if  (on  other  days  than  the  4th  of  July,)  he  has  unfortunately  con- 
tracted a  habit,  too  frequently  indulged  in  on  that  day — if  he  labours  under  a  disease 
of  this  kind — one  to  which  many  an  honest  man  is  subject,  without  ever  being  con- 
scious of  it  himself,  so  as  in  this  way  to  unfit  himself  for  his  highly  important  duties — 
hear  him,  and  if  the  accusation  is  well  founded,  turn  him  out  by  a  vote. 

Go  beyond  this,  and  you  lay  a  snare  for  his  conscience — ^you  join  the  betrayer  of 
the  souls  of  men,  and  you  are  answerable  for  those  souls  who  are  thus  tempted  and 
destroyed.    Under  such  temptation,  let  no  man  say,  that  he  stands  lest  he  fall. 

Plow  are  we  now  to  decide  the  pending  questions  of  the  officers,  as  to  their  claims 
for  half  pay,  or  such  others  as  may  probably  come  before  us  of  that  kind,  involving 
the  Treasury  in  very  large  sums  ?  If  we  decide  in  favour  of  the  State,  may  we  not 
be  suspected  ?  If  against,  may  we  not  become  odious,  and  must  we  not  risque  the 
consequences  ? 

May  we  not  be  tempted  to  do  the  latter,  that  we  may  avoid  suspicion  ?  Will  you 
leave  a  dispute  to  your  friend  or  dependant,  and  not  recollect,  that,  if  he  is  an  honest 
man,  he  may  bear  against  you  on  this  very  ground,  and  decide  against  you,  unless 
you  have  a  very  clear  case  indeed  ? 

I  trust  and  hope,  that  the  amendment  will  prevail. 

Mr.  Cabell  moved  the  following  amendment: 

"  But  if  no  Judicial  duties  are  assigned  him  by  the  Legislature,  he  shall  receive  no 
salary  in  virtue  of  said  office." 

Mr.  Randolph  was  opposed  to  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Cabell,  and  observed,  that  the 
House  would  perceive  at  a  glance,  the  question  might  as  well  be  taken  on  the  amend- 
ment of  Mr.  Scott,  as  that  of  Mr.  Cabell.  That  of  Mr.  Scott  declared,  that  the  Judge 
should  not  lose  his  office  by  the  abolition  of  his  court,  unless  that  abolition  took  place 
by  a  vote  of  two-thirds  of  both  Houses :  that  of  Mr.  Cabell  went  to  nullify  this  pro- 
vision. The  sense  of  the  House,  therefore,  would  be  declared  on  the  latter  when  it 
was  expressed  on  the  former. 

The  question  was  then  put  on  Mr.  Scott's  amendment,  and  decided  by  ayes  and 
noes  as  follows  : 

Jlyes — Messrs.  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Brodnax,  Drom- 
goole,  Alexander,  Marshall  of  Richmond, Nicholas,  Clopton,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  Miller, 
Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,_Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax, 
Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Holladay,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Cooke, 
Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  Taylor 
of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier, 
Prentis,  Branch,  Townes,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Pvose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Up- 
shur and  Perrin — 53. 

JYoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Giles,  Goode,  Tyler,  Anderson,  Coffman, 
Harrison,  Williamson,  M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Baxter,  Osboi-ne,  George, 
M'Millan,  Campbell  of  V/ashington,  Bj^ars,  Roane,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews, 
Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  SumVners,  See,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson, 
Tazewell,  Loyall,  Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell,  Martin, 
Stuart,  Pleasants,  Thompson  and  Bayly — 42. 

Mr.  Cabell  then  renewed  his  motion,  and  it  was  decided  by  ayes  and  noes  as  follows : 

Jlyes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Giles,  Goode,  Tyler,  Anderson,  Coffman,  Har- 
rison, Williamson,  M"Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Baxter,  Osborne,  Donaldson, 
George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Roane,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Ma- 
thews, Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke, 
Wilson,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Cabell, 
Martin,  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Thompson  and  Bayly — 43. 

JVoes — Messrs.  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Brodnax,  Drom- 
goole,  Alexander,  Marshall  of  Richmond,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  Mil- 
ler, Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Hali- 
fax, Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Stanard,  Plolladay,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson, 
Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  Taylor  of 
Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier, 
Prentis,  Branch,  Townes,  Gordon,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Up- 
shur and  Perrin — 52. 

No  other  amendment  then  being  before  the  Convention,  the  question  was  pro- 
pounded on  engrossing  the  Constitution. 

Messrs.  Giles  and  Coalter  said,  they  should  vote  in  the  afiirmative,  but  reserved  to 
themselves  the  right  of  voting  as  they  thought  best  on  the  ultimate  passage. 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


8S1 


The  vote  on  the  engrossment  was  read  as  follows  : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Brodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond, 
Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart, 
Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax.  Logan,  Venable.  Madison.  HoUaday,  Henderson,  Cooke, 
Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Morris,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Mar- 
shall of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  CanipbeU  of  Bedford,  Branch, 
Towne.-.  >I  ,.i-:n.  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale.Rose,  Coalter, 
Jojmes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 53. 

jYoes — ]NIessrs.  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  WiHiamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson, 
M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Stanard,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Osborne, 
Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  iNaylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George, 
M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Bj-ars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby, 
Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Claytor, 
Saunders,  Cabell  and  Stuart — 42. 

On  Mr.  Clopton's  motion,  an  Engrossing  Committee  was  appointed,  (viz  :  Messrs. 
Clopton,  Powell  and  Fitzhugh :)  and  to  give  time  for  engrossing  the  Constitution, 
a4journed  till  to-morrow  12  o'clock. 


THURSDAY,  January  14,  1530. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  but  the  engrossing  of  the  draught  of  the  Con- 
stitution not  having  been  completed,  it  adjourned  to  meet  again  at  2  o'clock. 

It  met  again  at  2,  but  the  engrossing  not  having  yet  been  completed,  it  adjourned 
to  meet  at  7  o'clock. 

The  Convention  met  at  7  o'clock.  After  some  time,  Mr.  Clopton,  from  the  Com- 
mittee appointed  to  superintend  the  engrossing  of  the  Constitution,  entered  the  House 
and  presented  the  engrossed  copy  to  the  President. 

It  was  then  read  a  tliird  time  from  the  Chair, 

And  the  question  being  thereupon  put,  Sliall  this  Coiisiitution  jjass  ? 

Mr.  Summers  stated,  that  a  member  from  one  of  the  northwest  districts,  (INIr.  Dod- 
dridge,) was  so  seriously  indisposed  as  to  be  confined  to  his  bed,  and  requested  that  the 
liberahty  and  indulgence  heretofore  extended  to  members  under  like  circumstances, 
should  apply  to  the  case  of  this  gentleman,  and  that  he  might  be  permitted  to  record 
his  vote  at  any  time  before  the  adjournment  of  the  Convention,  should  his  health  so 
improve  as  to  enable  him  to  attend.  Mr.  S.  said,  that  if  the  health  of  the  sick  mem- 
ber was  not  improved  by  the  following  morning,  and  it  should  be  found  that  his  vote 
would  materially  jifiect  the  question  about  to  be  taken,  that  the  remaining  delegation 
would,  he  understood,  be  prepared  to  give  the  people  of  that  district  their  proper  weight 
upon  the  very  interesting  proposition  announced  from  the  Chair. 

Mr.  Jones  made  a  similar  request  in  behalf  of  his  colleague,  (Mr.  Giles.)  whose  in- 
firm state  of  health  would  probably  prevent  iiis  attendance  after  night  in  such  damp 
Aveather. 

The  Chair  said,  that  presuming  from  what  had  hitherto  been  done  in  similar  cases, 
that  such  was  the  will  of  the  Convention,  he  should  give  the  permission  unless  it  were 
objected  to. 

Mr.  Pvandolph,  after  expressing  his  strong  disposition  to  do  all  in  the  case  which 
courtesy  would  require,  said  he  was  compelled  by  the  stern  dictates  of  duty  to  object 
to  the  granting  of  the  leave  desired.  He  thought  the  principle  was  fraught  with  the 
utmost  danarer.  He  put  the  case,  that  the  adoption  or  rejection  of  the  Constitution 
should  depend  on  a  single  vote — or  on  two  votes — and  asked  whether  the  Convention 
would  permit  two  members,  who  had  been  absent  during  a  considerable  part  of  the 
discussions,  to  enter  the  House  to-morrow,  and  by  their  votes  to  reverse  the  decisions 
that  mio-ht  t3e  had  to-night.?  He  illustrated  the  principle  by  a  further  case  of  a  bill 
in  Congress  being  similarly  situated,  and  asked  if  every  one  must  not  perceive  the 
tampering  to  which  such  leave  would  open  a  door He  repeated  his  wish  to  be  able 
to  extend^ every  courtesy  toward  the  absent  gentlemen,  but  concluded  by  expressing 
his  conviction  that  it  was  his  bounden  duty  to  resist  the  request, 

(As  Mi-.  R.  was  speaking.  Mr.  Gile^s  entered  the  House.) 

Mr.  Summers  expressed  his  regret,  that  the  indulgence  which  he  had  asked  for  a 
sick  friend,  should  have  rnet  with  "opposition  :  he  referred  to  the  uniform  practice  of 
the  Convention  in  accordinsf  like  permission,  whenever  it  had  been  asked  under  cir- 
cumstances like  the  present"  He  thought  there  was  but  slight  ground  to  apprehend 
that  the  vote,  about  to  be  taken,  would  be  affected  by  the  one  vvhich  mav  be  hereafter 

111 


882 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


recorded ;  but  suppose  that  to  be  the  case,  was  the  Convention  prepared  to  send  out 
a  Constitution  to  the  people  which  could  only  be  passed  by  the  absence  of  a  sick  mem- 
ber ?  The  gentleman  from  Charlotte  had  heretofore  reprobated  an  attempt  to  pass  a 
Constitution  by  a  lean  majority  of  one  or  two,  and  therefore  he  had  the  less  expected 
an  opposition  from  him  :  if  the  coming  in  of  the  absent  member  should  reverse  the 
decision,  it  would  only  show  that  it  ought  never  to  have  taken  place.  The  objection, 
founded  in  the  danger  of  the  example,  he  thought  was  not  entitled  to  serious  weight. 
If  it  would  leave  a  door  to  tampering,  that  door  was  already  open 3  every  member 
voting  on  the  side  of  the  majority  might  be  tampered  with,  because  any  member  so 
voting  might  move  a  re-consideration,  and  change  his  vote,  and  thus  by  possibility 
change  the  decision  of  the  question. 

Mr.  Randolph  said,  that  the  permission  heretofore  granted,  had  had  reference  to  in- 
termediate votes,  but  this  vote  was  final. 

The  question  being  put,  the  leave  was  granted  without  a  count. 

The  question  being  again  proposed,  and  on  the  passage  of  the  Constitution, 

Mr.  Coalter,  after  referring  to  the  difficulty  he  had  had  in  making  up  his  mind,  ex- 
pressed his  final  determination  to  be,  that  he  should  vote  for  the  Constitution  :  he  took 
it,  if  at  all,  as  the  least  of  two  evils  :  he  declared  his  decided  preference  for  the  mixed 
basis  of  representation,  compounded  of  population  and  taxation,  and  his  objection  to 
the  extension  of  the  right  of  sufFrage  as  being  of  dangerous  tendency  ;  but  hoped  that 
as  he  had  not  entered  the  Convention  till  the  discussion  on  those  points  was  princi- 
pally over,  he  should  be  permitted  to  enter  a  full  statement  of  his  views  in  the  volume 
which  was  preparing  by  the  gentleman  who  took  notes  of  the  debate. 

The  President  then  rising,  put  to  the  Convention  the  final  question,  Shall  this 
Constitution  pass 

Mr.  M'Coy  asked  for  the  ayes  and  noes,  and  the  vote  stood  as  follows : 

Ayes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Ches- 
terfield, Giles,  Erodnax,  Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond, 
Tyler,  Nicholas,  Clopton,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urquhart, 
Kandolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Madison,  Holladay,  Henderson,  Cooke, 
Roane,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Mori'is,  Garnett,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Mar- 
shall of  Fauquier,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Campbell  of  Bedford,  Branch, 
Townes,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gordon,  Thompson,  Massie,  Bates, 
Neale,  Rose,  Coalter,  Joynes,  Bayly,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 55. 

Noes — Messrs.  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson, 
M'Coy,  Moore,  Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Stanard,  Mercer,  Fitzhugh,  Osborne, 
Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton,  George, 
M'Millan,  Campbell  of  Washington,  Byars,  Cloyd,  Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby, 
Duncan,  Laidley,  Sunnners,  See,  Morgan,  Campbell  of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Claytor 
and  Saunders — 40. 

So  THE  Constitution  was  agreed  to,  (by  a  majority  of  fifteen  votes;  which  will 
be  reduced  to  fourteen  by  the  vote  of  Mr.  Doddridge,  if  he  shall  be  so  far  recovered 
as  to  be  able  to  give  it.) 

The  question  was  then  put  on  the  title,  which  was  also  agreed  to,  as  follows  : 

"  An  amended  Constitution,  or  form  of  Government  for  Virginia." 

A  Committee  of  three  was,  on  motion  of  Mr.  Joynes,  appointed  to  superintend  the 
enrolment  of  the  Constitution  now  adopted. 

The  Chair  appointed  Messrs.  Joynes,  Scott  and  Cooke  as  that  Committee. 

Mr.  Powell  moved  that  the  enroled  Constitution  be  signed  by  the  President,  and 
countersigned  by  the  Secretary. 

Mr.  Scott  moved  as  an  amendment  that  it  be  signed  by  the  President,  and  such  other 
members  as  were  disposed  to  sign  the  same,  and  countersigned  by  the  Secretary. 

This  amendment  was  carried,  ayes  51,  and  the  resolution  as  amended  was  agreed  to. 

Mr.  Joynes  moved  the  printing  of  ten  thousand  copies  of  the  Constitution  for  the 
use  of  the  members. 

Mr.  Upshur  suggested  some  difficulty  as  to  the  transportation  and  distribution. 

Mr.  Joynes  said,  it  would  be  but  about  one  hundred  copies  apiece  to  the  members. 

Mr.  Wilson,  after  objecting  to  thus  spending  the  people's  money,  proposed  that  five 
copies  should  be  presented  to  each  member  of  the  House  of  Delegates  and  Senate, 
which  was  agreed  to,  and  the  motion  of  Mr.  Joynes  was  carried. 

Mr.  Cabell,  believing  that  the  vote  which  had  passed  as  to  the  mode  of  authentica- 
ting the  enroled  Constitution  might  place  some  gentlemen  in  dehcate  and  unpleasant 
circumstances,  moved  a  re-consideration  of  it. 

This  motion  gave  rise  to  a  desultory  debate,  in  which  Messrs.  Cabell,  Henderson, 
Mason  of  Frederick,  Claytor,  Scott,  Bayly,  Coalter,  Mercer,  Stanard,  Johnson  and 
Nicholas  took  part. 

It  was  urged  on  the  one  side,  that  the  signatures  of  the  members  were  unnecessary,  to 
authenticate  the  instrument,  those  of  the  officers  of  the  Convention  being  sufficient: 
that  the  course  was  unusual,  having  been  pursued  in  only  nine  out  of  twenty-six  Con- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


883 


stitutions  agreed  to  in  other  States,  and  in  those  cases  the  members  had  been  nearly 
unanimous  in  agreeing  to  the  instrument  so  certified  :  that  if  some  signed  the  instru- 
ment while  others  refused,  it  would  be  perpetuating  on  the  face  of  a  document,  to  be 
deposited  in  the  archives,  the  disunion  of  that  body  :  and  that  it  would  place  those  gen- 
tlemen who  had  voted  against  adopting  the  Constitution,  in  a  very  unpleasant  situa- 
tion, some  of  them  being  very  unwilling  to  put  their  hands  to  an  instrument  as  re- 
commending it  to  the  people,  while  they  entirely  disapproved  of  it  as  a  whole. 

It  was  contended  on  the  other  side,  that  as  the  caption  of  the  instrument  ran  in  the 
plural  number,  there  was  a  propriety  that  it  should  have  a  plurality  of  signatures,  and 
not  be  signed  by  a  single  man  only :  that  no  gentleman  was  committed  by  signing  it, 
as  the  signature  was  merely  a  form  of  attestation  to  the  instrument,  as  being  that  which 
the  Convention  had  agreed  upon :  that  it  could  occasion  no  misunderstanding  of  any 
one's  views,  as  the  vote  was  recorded  by  ayes  and  noes,  and  pt;blished  to  the  world : 
and  as  to  perpetuating-  the  evidence  of  disunion  in  the  archives,  that  would  of  neces- 
sity be  done,  and  much  more  effectually  too,  by  preserving  in  the  archives,  the  Jour- 
nals of  the  Convention,  where  all  the  discordant  votes  were  on  record  :  and  that  if 
granting  the  leave  to  sign  might  place  some  gentlemen  in  a  delicate  situation,  with- 
holding it  would  be  a  very  harsh  act  toward  such  as  were  desirous  of  placing  their 
signatures  to  the  instrument. 

(Mr.  Mason  of  Frederick,  after  declaring  that  if  it  was  the  last  act  of  his  life,  he  would 
refuse  his  signature  to  such  a  paper,  gave  notice,  that  a  protest  would  be  drawn  up, 
and  the  signatures  invited  of  all  who  were  opposed  to  the  form  of  the  new  Consti- 
tution.) 

Mr.  Cabell  said,  that  he  had  acted  throughout,  so  help  him  Heaven,  in  good  faith 
to  the  West:  he  had  believed,  and  still  did  believe,  that  the  white  population  alone 
was  the  true  and  proper  basis  of  representation  :  but  having  been,  as  he  esteemed  it, 
fairly  beaten,  he  was  willing  to  confess  it.  and  he  trusted  he  should  be  permitted  to 
march  off  the  field  retaining  his  side-arms,  with  flag  flying,  and  he  hoped,  with  all  the 
honors  of  war. 

Mr.  Stanard  wished  to  declare  his  explicit  renunciation  of  the  ground  taken  by  the 
gentleman  from  Frederick,  (Mr.  Mason.)  He  objected  to  several  provisions  in  the 
instrument,  and  thought  that  the  allotment  of  power  was,  according  to  every  test,  less 
favorable  to  Eastern  Virginia  than  justice  required  :  but  he  would  have  given  up  that, 
and  more,  if  he  saw  that  it  would  be  accepted  bv  gentlemen  from  the  West  as  an  ami- 
cable compromise  :  but  the  ground  on  which  he  had  rested  his  negative  vote,  was  one 
provision,  which  alone  would  have  been  decisive  with  him,  even  if  he  had  received  a 
carte  hlatiche  to  make  all  the  rest  as  he  pleased  :  he  thought  the  Convention  were  doing 
what  they  had  no  right  to  do. 

Mr.  Johnson  said,  he  had  voted  against  this  Constitution  under  a  sense  of  imperi- 
ous duty,  but  with  a  degree  of  reluctance  which  few  were  able  to  conceive. 

Mr.  Nicholas  was  glad  of  an  opportunity  of  saying,  that  the  vote  he  had  given  was 
dictated  solely  by  a  conviction  that  the  public  good  required  it  at  his  hands. 

The  question  on  re-consideration  was  at  length  put  and  carried. 

Mr.  Claytor  moved  to  amend  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Scott,  by  striking  out  the 
clause  relating  to  the  attestation  by  the  signatures  of  the  members. 

When,  after  some  further  conversation,  on  motion  of  Mr.  Stanard,  the  resolution 
and  amendments  were  laid  upon  the  table. 

Some  accounts  for  expenses  of  fuel,  transcribing,  &c.  were  passed. 

Mr.  Mercer  obtained  leave  of  absence. 

Mr.  Cooke  gave  notice  that  he  should  to-morrow  move  the  consideration  of  the  pro- 
positions he  had  offered  as  to  the  mode  of  carrying  the  Constitution  into  effect.  (He 
would  willingly  have  waived  them ;  but  should  he  do  so,  they  would  be  immediately 
moved  again  by  another  gentleman.) 

The  Convention  then  adjourned,  (at  near  10  o'clock.) 


FRIDAY,  January  15,  1830. 

The  Convention  met  at  11  o'clock,  and  was  opened  with  the  following  appropriate 
prayer  by  the  Rev.  Mr.  Croes  of  the  Episcopal  Church. 

Jl  form  of  prayer  used  on  the  last  clay  of  the  session  of  the  Convention,  by  the  Rev. 

Robert  B.  Croes. 

God,  the  Father  of  Heaven,  have  mercy  upon  us,  miserable  sinners. 
O  G-od,  the  Son,  Redeemer  of  the  world,  have  mercy  upon  us,  miserable  sinners. 
O  God,  the  Holy  Ghost,  proceeding  from  the  Father  and  the  Son,  have  mercy  upon 
us,  miserable  sinners. 


884 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


Thy  property,  O  Lord,  is  always  to  have  mercy ;  to  thee  it  appertaineth  to  forgive 
sins.  Spare  us,  therefore,  good  Lord;  spare  thy  people,  whom  thou  hast  redeemed. 
Enter  not  into  judgment  with  thy  servants,  who  are  vile  earth  and  miserable  sinners, 
but  so  turn  thine  anger  from  us  who  meekly  acknowledge  our  vileness,  and  truly  re- 
pent us  of  our  faults;  and  so  make  haste  to  help  us  in  this  world,  that  we  may  ever 
live  with  thee  in  the  world  to  come,  through  the  merits  and  intercession  of  our  com- 
passsionate  High  Priest. 

We  thank  thee,  most  Gracious  Father,  for  the  various  mercies  of  Creation,  Provi- 
dence, Redemption  and  Sanctification,  with  which  thou  hast  been  pleased  to  bless  us. 
We  render  thee  the  ascription  of  praise,  that  thou  hast  cast  ouy  lot  in  this  land  of  jus- 
tice and  liberty;  that  we  are  endowed  with  civil  and  religious  principles,  v/hich  no 
worthiness  of  our  own  could  have  obtained ;  that  we  are  permitted  to  sit  under  our 
vine  and  fig-trees,  with  none  to  make  us  afraid.  But  chiefly  are  Ave  bound  to  glorify 
thy  name  for  thine  inestimable  love  in  the  redemption  of  the  world  by  our  Lord  Jesus 
Christ,  for  the  means  of  grace,  and  the  hope  of  glory.  Make,  we  beseech  thee,  all 
the  people  of  this  our  favored  country  to  be  duly  sensible  of  these  distinguished  bles- 
sings— and  grant  that  they  may  shovv^  their  gratitude  to  thee  by  cultivating  that  right- 
eousness which  exalteth  a  nation,  and  by  abstaining  from  those  sins  which  are  a  re- 
proach to  any  people.  To  the  mem-bers  of  this  Convention,  now  assembled  in  thy 
presence,  give  the  abundance  of  thy  grace — that  they  may  be  especially  thankful  for 
thy  goodness  to  them.  May  they  call  to  remembrance,  that  while  others  have  been 
afliicted  by  thy  chastising  hand,  Ihey,  for  the  most  part,  have  enjoyed  the  blessing  of 
health.  May  they  bear  in  mind,  that  by  the  King's  reign,  Princes  decree  justice,  and 
that  it  is  of  thij  mercy,  that  they  have  been  permitted  to  proceed  thus  far  in  their  la- 
bours, without  a  more  serious  interruption  of  harmony  than  they  have  yet  experi- 
enced. Be  with  them.  Almighty  Father,  at  the  close  of  their  dehberations.  May  that 
spirit  of  charity  now  animate  them,  which  beareth  all  things,  believeth  all  things, 
hopeth  all  things,  and  endureth  all  things.  Separating  from  one  another  with  the 
most  friendly  feelings,  do  thou  return  them  in  safety  and  in  health  to  their  families 
and  constituents ;  and  so  direct  and  dispose  their  hearts,  that  they  may  use  their  best 
exertions  to  promote  peace  and  unity  and  concord — to  advance  thy  glory,  the  good  of 
thy  church,  the  safety,  honour  and  welfare  of  thy  people. 

Finally,  we  pray  thee,  that  all  the  nations  of  the  earth  may  be  made  to  cherish,  and 
to  stand  fast  in  the  liberty  wherev/ith  Christ  hath  made  us  free — and  that  the  time 
may  soon  arrive  when  the  comfortable  Gospel  of  the  Saviour  shall  be  truly  preached, 
truly  received,  and  truly  followed  in  all  places,  to  the  breaking  down  of  the  kingdom 
of  sin,  satan,  and  death — till  at  length  the  whole  of  thy  dispersed  sheep  being 
gathered  into  one  fold,  shall  become  partakers  of  everlasting  life,  through  the  merits 
and  death  of  Jesus  Christ  our  Saviour. 

The  Grace  of  our  Lord  Jesus  Christ,  and  the  love  of  God,  and  the  fellowship  of 
the  Holy  Ghost,  be  with  us  all,  ever  more  !  Amen. 

Mr.  Joynes,  from  the  Committee  appointed  to  superintend  the  enrolment  of  the 
Constitution,  entered  the  Convention  about  12  o'clock,  with  that  instrument  in  his 
hand,  enroled  on  parchment  of  the  largest  size,  and  presented  it  to  the  Chair,  ac- 
companied with  a  certificate  that  it  had  been  carefully  compared  with  the  engrossed 
copy  and  been  found  to  be  correct. 

Mr.  P^andolph  now  rose  and  addressed  the  Convention  in  substance  as  follows : 

Mr.  President, — I  feel  embarrassed  with  regard  to  bringing  forv/ard  the  question,  as 
to  those  to  whom  this  Constitution  shall  be  submitted  for  adoption  or  rejection.  If  I 
did  not  misunderstand  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  that  gentleman  conceded,  that 
the  Act  of  Assembly,  by  Vv'hich  tiiis  Convention — shall  I  say,  was  gotten  up — was  not 
a  legal  Act,  having  been  passed  without  legal  authority;  but  he  seemed  to  think,  that 
the  fact  of  its  having  been  subsequently  submitted  to  the  freeholders  of  the  Common- 
wealth, cured  the  defect  of  authority  in  those  who  passed  it.  Now,  with  all  deference 
to  that  gentleman,  let  me  be  permitted  to  say,  that  the  freeholders  never  gave  any 
such  assent  as  is  supposed  to  be  implied.  The  Legislature  passed  two  Acts :  the  first 
was  for  determining  the  question,  whether  there  should  be  any  Convention  at  all.  By 
that  Act,  the  question  was  submitted  to  the  freeholders ;  and  from  the  face  of  the  re- 
turns, it  appeared  that  there  was  a  majority  in  favor  of  a  Convention  :  Whereupon, 
the  Legislature  passed  a  second  Act,  convening  that  body ;  but  inserted  in  the  Act  a 
clause,  leaving  no  option  in  the  freeholders  to  reject,  or  to  assent  to  the  Constitution 
which  should  be  proposed  ;  or  to  the  provisions  of  that  Act  itself,  even  if  they  had 
been  aware  of  all  the  provisions  it  contained  :  whereas  I  am  as  certain,  as  I  can  be  of 
any  thing,  that  they  y/ere  not  av^^are  of  those  provisions  at  all.  The  freeholders  first 
assent  to  the  assembling  of  a  Convention — the  Legislature  thereupon  appoint  the  day 
when  Delegates  should  be  chosen— and,  in  the  same  Act,  insert  a  clause,  requiring 
the  Constitution  to  be  submitted  to  whomsoever  the  Convention  might  please  to  de- 
clare qualified  for  members  of  the  House  of  Burgesses.  When  the  election  day  ar- 
rived, the  freeholders  were  obIiged~5e  defendendo— or  rather—^e  defcndendis— to  elect 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


885 


Delegates  tQ  the  Convention — or,  as  the  other  alternative,  to  allow  a  part  only  of  the 
Commonwealth,  to  propose  such  Constitution,  as  to  them  might  seem  good.  If  the 
freeholders  residing  East  of  the  Blue  Ridge,  had  refused  to  elect  Delegates,  the  Con* 
vention  vrould  have  been  attended  exclusively  by  Delegates  from  the  West  of  that 
Ridge — and  then,  what  Constitution  would  have  been  presented  to  the  Commonwealth, 
I  cannot  pretend  to  tell.  On  the  other  hand,  if  the  freeholders  West  of  the  Ridge  had 
refused  to  elect  Delegates,  then  those  East  of  the  Ridge  would  have  proposed  a  Con- 
stitution equally  objectionable  to  the  West.  So  tliat  it  is  plain,  that  the  fact  of  the 
freeholders  having  appointed  their  Delegates  under  the  Act  of  Assembly,  cannot, 
even  by  the  most  distant  implication — unless  it  be  the  remotest  implication  that 
ever  entered  the  mind  of  man — be  considered  as  conveying  any  assent  of  theirs,  that 
the  new  Constitution  should  be  submitted  for  acceptance  or  rejection,  to  any  persons 
but  themselves,  they  shall  assent  to  this  Constitution — if  they  shall  choose  to  ratify 
it — well  and  good — there  is  an  end  of  the  matter — theirs  is  the  power — though  theirs 
will  not  be  the  glory.  Sir,  it  is  as  plain  as  any  proposition  in  Euclid — Sir,  it  is  plainer — 
it  is  self-evident — that  no  other  power  on  earth,  save  that  from  which  this  Convention 
derives  all  its  authority  to  propose  any  Constitution  at  all,  can  rightfully  pronounce 
on  the  validity  of  our  acts,  or  decide  upon  the  acceptance  or  rejection  of  such  Consti- 
tution as  we  shall  make. 

Sir,  I  consider  this  as  the  greatest  question  which  has  been  presented  to  this  body, 
since  it  assembled.  Much  will  depend  on  its  decision — yes,  Sir,  very  much  will  de- 
pend on  it. 

Is  it  not  plain  that  the  freeholders  had  no  option  but  to  elect  delegates  ?  But  that 
does  not  in  the  slightest  degree  consecrate  that  provision  in  the  act,  which  declares 
to  whom  the  Constitution  shall  be  submitted.  Sir,  though  it  is  using  strong  terms,  it 
would  have  been  an  act  of  treachery  to  their  own  principles,  to  permit  the  Constitu- 
tion to  be  submitted  to  any  others  than  freeholders  for  acceptance  or  rejection.  Is  it 
not  obvious  that  if  the  Commonwealth  consists  of  freeholders  and  noivfreeholders — 
and  the  non-freeholders  are — as  we  have  been  told  they  are-— the  most  numerous  of 
the  two — that  tJie  worst  of  Constitutions — and  God  knows,  I  have  nothing  to  say  in 
favour  of  this  one — might  have  been  imposed  upon  the  Commonwealth  by  those 
who — in  the  language  of  a  gentleman  on  this  floor — are  "  out  of  the  Constitution" — 
against  the  voice  of  every  freeholder  in  the  country  ?  Sir,  what  sort  of  a  tribunal  do 
you  elect,  when  you  admit  tlaose  who  have  no  lot  or  part  in  our  acts — to  pass  judg- 
ment upon  them Sir,  you  might  as  well  refer  the  Constitution  to  the  people  of 
Ohio — or  the  people  of  Kentucky — or — I  v/ill  go  farther — to  the  people  of  Japan. 
Yes,  Sir — they  have  just  as  good  a  right  to  decide  upon  it. 

Mr.  President,  1  knov7  the  time  is  precious.  I  believe  I  have  done  justice  so  far  as 
my  poor  capacity  will  allow — to  the  opinions  I  hold,  and  I  will  not  longer  detain  you. 

Mr.  Coalter  took  the  same  ground — and  contended  that  the  act  of  the  Assembly, 
calling  a  Convention,  was  an  act  of  usurpation — which  he  had  opposed  at  the  time, 
and  still  considered  as  a  revolutionary  movement.  He  explained  the  grounds  of  ne- 
cessity on  which  he  had  voted  for  delegates  to  the  Convention,  and  contended,  that 
as  that  body  derived  all  its  authority  from  freeholders,  it  had  no  right  to  go  beyond 
them  in  submitting  its  acts. 

While  Mr.  Randolph  Vv^as  engaged  in  reducing  his  intended  motion  to  writing, 

Mr.  Mason  of  Frederick  stated  to  the  Convention,  that  when  the  question  had  been 
agitated,  the  evening  previous,  as  to  the  proper  mode  of  authenticating  the  instru- 
ment which  had  to-day  been  returned  by  the  Committee  on  enrolment,  finding  it  to 
be  the  sentiment  of  a  majority  that  it  was  to  receive  the  signatures  of  all  the  mem- 
bers who  chose  to  sign  it,  he  had  been  stronglj^  impressed  with  the  necessity  of  pre- 
senting the  viev/s  held  by  himself  and  others  opposed  to  the  adoption  of  the  new  Con- 
stitution, in  the  shape  of  a  protest:  but  finding  afterwards  that  the  resolution  on  that 
subject  had  been  laid  upon  the  table,  and  perceiving  it  to  be  the  understanding  that  it 
was  not  again  to  be  taken  up,  he  considered  that  necessity  as  having  ceased;  and, 
therefore,  no  protest  would  be  presented. 

Mr.  R,andolpli  then  moved  the  following  resolution,  on  which  he  asked  the  ayes 
and  noes : 

Resolved,  That  the  amended  Constitution  adopted  by  this  Convention,  be  submit- 
ted on  the  respective  election  days  in  the  month  of  April  next,  to  the  persons  quali- 
fied to  vote  under  the  existing  Constitution,  for  members  of  the  General  Assembly." 

Mr.  Thompson  said  he  was  constrained  by  an  imperious  sense  of  duty,  to  trespass 
(he  hoped  for  the  last  time)  upon  the  patience  and  attention  of  this  Convention,  for 
the  purpose  of  expressing  his  most  decided  disapprobation  of,  and  his  objections  to,  the 
passage  of  the  resolution  just  offered  by  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte,  (Mr.  Ran- 
dolph.) He  regretted,  that  the  gentleman  had  felt  it  his  duty  at  this  late  hour  to  urge 
its  consideration,  because  its  adoption  could  not  possibly  accomplish  any  valuable  pur- 
pose, but  on  the  contrary  might,  and  he  verily  believed,  would  produce  excitement, 
heart-burnings,  and  dissatisfaction,  v/ith  that  part  of  the  community,  the  non-free- 


886 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


holders,  whom  your  new  Constitution  invests  with  the  elective  franchise — Chd  hono  ? 
will  you  do  this.  Can  those  who  are  friendly  to  the  new  Constitution,  and  really 
desire  its  ratification  by  the  people,  expect  to  accomplish  their  wishes  by  the  adoption 
of  this  resolution,  the  necessary  effect  of  which  will  be,  gratuitously  to  insult  and  ex- 
5isperate  that  portion  of  your  fellow-citizens.  Reject  this  resolution,  and  permit  them 
to  have  a  voice  in  the  decision  of  this  question,  and  they  will  be  the  fast  friends  of  this 
hew  charter.  Adopt  it  and  you  make  them  its  enemies  and  create  an  excitement  in 
the  country  to  be  deprecated  by  all ;  an  excitement  that  will  not  be  confined  to  them, 
but  which  will  prevail  with  the  freeholder,  in  common  with  the  non-freeholder.  For, 
permit  me  to  tell  gentlemen,  who  deem  the  freeJiolders  indifferent  on  this  subject, 
that  they  do  them  the  most  flagrant  injustice.  It  should  be  recollected  that  this  Con- 
vention was  called  by  the  freeholders,  and  an  object  not  the  least  prominent,  was  that 
of  enfranchising  their  disfranchised  brethren. 

Mr.  T.  said,  this  new  Constitution  was  no  very  great  favourite  with  him.  He  had 
voted  for  it,  it  was  true,  but  with  tlie  most  unfeigned  reluctance — he  had  done  so  in 
the  spirit  of  conciliation  and  compromise.  It  had  been  his  misfortune  to  represent  on 
this  floor  a  divided  people,  a  people  entertaining  conflicting  views  and  opinions  on  the 
great  and  delicate  questions  involved  in  our  recent  deliberations — and  he  had  felt  it  his 
duty  thus  circumstanced,  to  consult  in  some  measure,  the  wishes,  the  hopes,  and  the 
fears  of  both  sides — to  yield  somewhat  to  the  unforeseen  circumstances  of  the  occa- 
sion, and  to  offer  up  some  of  his  own  individual  convictions  of  political  right  and  po- 
litical justice,  upon  the  altar  of  the  public  peace  :  for  these  reasons  only,  had  he  recorded 
his  vote  in  favour  of  the  passage  of  the  Constitution  :  that  he  did  so  with  extreme  re- 
luctance, was  not  because  he  considered  the  new  devoid  of  all  recommendation ;  far 
from  it;  (he  would  frankly  confess,  that  he  considered  it  a  valuable  improvement 
upon  the  old,  containing  many  valuable  features  of  reform  ;)  but  because  representa- 
tion had  not  been  based  at  the  present  and  in  all  future  time  upon  free  white  popula- 
tion, the  only  true  basis ;  because  the  election  of  Governor  was  not  referred  to  the 
people;  because  an  Executive  Council  was  retained,  the  Right  of  Suffrage  not  suffi- 
ciently extended,  and  the  County  Court  system  in  its  organization  and  powers  left 
unreformed.  A  hard  necessity,  however,  had  compelled  him  to  give  his  assent  to  this 
new  charter,  notwithstanding  these  great  objections;  and  whenever  as  one  of  the  peo- 
ple he  should  be  brought  to  choose  between  the  new  and  the  old,  he  should  not  hesi- 
tate to  give  to  the  new  his  decided  preference  and  support.  When  he  voted  for  it, 
he  had  done  so  in  good  faith  :  he  should  vote  for  it  at  the  polls,  and  should  recommend 
it  to  the  adoption  of  his  constituents.  But,  said  Mr.  T.,  notwithstanding  this  avowal, 
and  as  anxious  as  he  was  that  this  day  should  terminate  our  labours  in  peace,  harmo- 
ny, and  mutual  good  feeling,  he  icould  scuj,  that  should  that  resolution  be  adopted,  he 
should  esteem  it  his  duty  to  move  a  re-consideration  of  the  vote  adopting  the  amended 
Constitution — and  would,  if  sustained  in  this  motion,  vote  against  its  adoption,  pre- 
ferring to  submit  no  Constitution  at  all,  to  submitting  any,  in  a  manner  as  he  believed, 
so  violative  of  the  natural,  inherent,  and  original  rights  of  man,  as  that  proposed  by 
the  resolution  under  consideration.  He  contended,  that  according  to  the  theory  and 
principles  of  free  government  and  the  equal  rights  of  man,  the  question  of  ratifica- 
tion or  rejection  should  be  submitted  to  the  whole  community — freeholder  and  non- 
freeholder,  whether  entitled  or  not  to  the  Right  of  Suffrage  under  the  Constitution 
submitted,  or  the  existing  one.  This,  he  said,  had  been  the  invariable  practice  of 
every  State  in  the  Union,  that  had  submitted  an  original  or  amended  Constitution.  It 
was  the  only  way  in  which  a  government  could  regularly  and  rightfully  be  called  into 
existence.  It  is  then  the  act  of  a  majority,  all  having  been  consulted — and  if  a  ma- 
jority exclude  a  part  from  Suffrage,  they  have  the  unquestionable  right  to  do  so.  From 
their  decision  there  is  no  appeal.  Then,  and  then  only  is  decided  rightfully  the  ques- 
tion, whether  it  is  expedient  to  surrender  this  great  natural  right.  Then  is  there  less 
cause  of  complaint  against  its  abridgment.  Then  might  the  plea  of  expediency  be 
urged  with  plausibihty  and  effect  to  sustain  the  decree  of  the  majority,  in  which  resides 
the  rightful  sovereignty  in  all  free  governments.  All  the  gentlemen  who  have  advo- 
cated a  restricted  Suffrage  on  this  floor,  have  founded  the  right  to  exclude  upon  the 
ground  of  expediency,  and  not  that  one  man  by  nature  has  more  right  than  another  ; 
but  the  difference  between  us  is,  that  they  make  the  minority  the  judges  of  the  ex- 
pediency of  retaining  power  in  their  own  hands.  I  claim  for  the  majority  the  right 
to  decide  this  question.  The  same  principle  that  would  sanction  the  right  of  less 
than  a  majority  to  decide  this  question  of  expediency,  would  justify  monarchy,  oli- 
archy,  aristocracy,  despotism.  If  the  freeholders,  without  consulting  the  non-free- 
olders,  arrogate  to  themselves  the  exclusive  right  to  govern  this  land,  whether  they 
be  a  majority  or  not,  why  may  not  a  part  of  them  with  equal  propriety  assume  that 
right  in  exclusion  of  the  rest why  may  not  the  large  landed  proprietors  deposing  the 
petty  freeholders,  say,  that  they  alone  are  the  rightful  sovereigns  ? 

The  act  to  organize  a  Convention,  has  been  made  the  subject  of  allusion  and  con- 
struction on  several  occasions  in  this  Convention,  and  by  the  gentleman  from  Char- 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


887 


lotte.  (Mr.  Randolph.)  the  subject  of  complaint  and  severe  animadversion.  He  has 
been  pleased  to  term  the  whole  act,  but  more  especially  that  part  of  it  that  has  imme- 
diate reference  to  this  subjectj  an  usurpation  on  the  part  of  the  Legislature  that 
enacted  it.  The  19th  section  of  this  act  provides,  that  the  amended  Constitution  shall 
be  submitted  for  ratification  or  rejection,  to  ail  such  persons,  as  shall,  by  the  amended 
Constitution,  be  authorised  to  vote  for  members  of  the  Lesf^slature,  or  by  this  Conven- 
tion shall  be  authorised  to  vote  on  the  question  of  its  ratification  or  rejection.  I  give 
the  substance  and  not  the  vrords  of  the  act.  The  whole  object  of  this  provision  was 
to  declare,  what  it  was  supereroofatory  to  affirm,  that  if  it  should  be  the  pleasure  of  this 
body  to  designate  the  persons  to  whom  our  work  should  be  submitted,  we  had  the 
power  to  do  so.  and  that  in  the  event  of  our  silence  on  this  subject,  the  sheriffs  should, 
on  the  question  of  ratification  or  rejection,  take  the  votes  of  all  qualified  under  the 
amended  Constitution.  The  history  of  this  provision  of  the  law  in  its  progrress  and 
passage  tlu-ough  the  Legislature,  induced  Mr.  T.  to  beheve,  that  it  was  intended  as 
an  indication  of  that  body  to  this,  of  its  sense  of  the  propriety  of  estendinof  Suffrage 
on  the  question  of  ratification  to  the  whole  community,  rather  than  to  restrict  it  to 
freeholders  as  we  are  asked  to  do  by  the  resolution  of  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte, 
(Mr.  Pvandolph.)  In  the  Legislature  it  was  contended  on  the  one  hand,  that  all 
should  be  allowed  to  vote  on  this  question — on  the  other,  that  only  the  freeholders 
should  vote.  The  adoption  of  the  provision  referred  to.  taken  in  connection  with  the 
almost  universal  opinion  prevailingr-  in  the  Legislature,  that  Suffrage  would  be  ex 
tended  by  the  Convention,  repudiates  entirely  the  claim  of  those  who  contended  for 
a  freehold  submission.  Mr.  T.  believed,  the  rea.1  object  of  the  provision,  was  an  ex- 
tended submission  of  the  question,  thousfh  by  its  terms,  the  right  to  diminish  or  to 
enlarge  it  might  equally  be  inferred. 

This  was  the  usurpation  of  which  the  gentleman  complained,  that  the  Legislature 
had  not  confined  the  submission  to  the  freeholders.  If  it  were  an  usurpation — 
against  whom  and  by  whom  was  it  committed  ?  Against  the  freeholders  by  the  free- 
holders themselves — for,  what  thev  did  bv  their  acrents.  the  members  of  the  Legisla- 
ture, they  did  by  themselves — and  this 'usurpation  thus  committed  by  themselves 
aguinst  themselves,  these  same  freeholders  ratified,  first,  by  their  acquiescence,  and 
secondly,  by  the  act  of  electing  members  to  this  Convention,  and  all  this,  so  far  as  I 
have  heard,  without  a  murmur^  or  complaint  acrainst  this  act  or  any  part  of  it.  The 
gentleman  from  Charlotte,  (:\Ir.  Randolph.)  will  surely  not  complain  of  the  fiction  by 
which  I  make  the  law  of  the  last  session  the  act  of  the  freeholders — when  he  and  his 
associates  have  so  frequentlv  contended  on  this  floor,  that  the  act  of  the  Legislature 
in  the  election  of  a  Governor  or  other  officer,  would  be  substantially  an  election  by 
the  people,  beinor  their  act  performed  by  their  agents.  No  one  ever  supposed,  that 
the  acts  to  take  the  sense  of  the  jpeo-ple  and  to  oriranize  a  Conxeixtion.  were  acts  of  ordi- 
nary  legislation,  or  properly  speakingr,  acts  of  legislation  at  ah,  as  little  so  as  an  elec- 
tion by  that  body  of  anv  officer.  No  one  ever  supposed,  that  the  old  Constitution 
either  expressly  or  impliedly  gave  such  a  power — for  it  must  be  recollected,  the  old 
Constitution  contained  no  provision  for  its  own  amendment,  and  to  expect  that  it 
could,  strictly  speaking,  be  changed  according  to  laic,  would  be  to  suppose  an  absur- 
dity. The  acts  spoken  of,  were  called  for  by  their  constituents,  resulted  from  the 
necessity  of  the  case,  and  were  justified  by  that  supreme  and  paramount  law,  the  salus 
popidi.  In  short,  they  supplied  the  only  mode,  by  which  the  orioinal  riofht  of  the  peo- 
ple to  meet  in  fill  and  free  Convention  to  reform,  alter,  or  abolish  their  form  of  go- 
vernment, could  be  exercised,  without  jeopardizing  the  peace,  tranquillitv,  and  har- 
mony of  the  State.  The  g-entleman  has  himself  stated  over  and  over  again,  that  the 
people  Could  not  exercise  this  right  in  propria  persona,  and  independently  of  the  ex- 
isting government — and  that  an  attempt  to  call  a  Convention,  without  Legislative  fa- 
cilities, would  be  flaoritious.  The  gentleman's  various  arguments  taken  together, 
prove  too  much :  that  is — that  although  the  riarht  of  the  people  to  call  a  Convention 
is  conceded  by  all.  yet  the  practical  exercise  of  this  right  is  usurpation  or  crime,  for 
that  is  the  sum  and  substance  of  his  arguments.  In  one  breath  with  the  gentleman, 
the  Legislature  is  very  trust-worthy — and  their  acts  are  to  be  deemed  the  acts  of  their 
constituents — ^but  when  those  acts  incur  his  disapprobation,  and  are  not  entirely  to  his 
taste,  they  are  acts  of  usurpation. 

The  truth  is,  the  action  of  the  ordinary  Legislature  on  this  subject,  as  before  re- 
marked, is  not  of  the  character  of  ordinary  lesrislation.  It  is,  in  the  nature  of  a  re- 
solve or  ordinance,  adopted  by  the  agents  of  the  people,  not  in  their  Legislative  cha- 
racter, for  the  purpose  of  rollectin?  and  ascertaining  the  public  will,  both  as  to  the 
call  and  organization  of  a  Convention,  and  upon  the  ratification  or  rejection  of  the 
work  of  that  Convention.  If  the  substance  of  the  thing,  to  wit :  the  ascertainment 
of  the  public  will,  is  accomolished.  it  is  needless  to  stickle  about  forms.  For  this  pur- 
pose only  is  the  aid  of  the  old  government,  its  officers,  and  instruments  invoked,  to 
perform  j^he  office  of  a  scaffoldinsr  on  which  to  stand,  whilst  you  axe  erecting  the  new. 
Thus  has  this  matter  been  viewed  in  other  States  similarly  circumstanced  as  ourselves ; 


888 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


and  in  their  Legislative  action  on  the  subject  of  a  Convention,  they  have  adopted 
the  language  of  resolve,  recommendation,  and  advice,  instead  of  the  technical  and 
imperative  language  of  enactment :  I  allude  particularly  to  the  example  of  Pennsyl- 
vania. Mr.  T.  concluded  by  saying,  he  should  extremely  regret  the  passage  of  the 
resolution.  Let  us  not  add  another  to  the  many  causes  of  excitement  already  produ- 
ced by  our  proceedings.  Having  agreed  with  so  much  difficulty  upon  a  Constitution, 
let  us,  at  least,  submit  it  to  those,  who  are  declared  by  it,  worthy  of  the  Paght  of  Suf- 
frage. 

Mr.  Henderson  said,  that  he  did  not  rise  to  take  any  part  in  the  discussion.  He 
had,  indeed,  a  strong  opinion  on  the  subject ;  but  he  should  not  attempt  to  state  the 
grounds  on  which  it  rested,  or  to  support  it  by  argument.  He  had  once  before  taken 
the  advice  of  the  venerable  gentleman  at  the  head  of  the  Judiciary  Committee,  and 
he  would  now  repeat  the  liberty  of  asking  him  to  favour  the  Convention  -vvith  his 
opinion  :  it  would  shed  light  upon  the  body,  and  might  tend  to  still  the  rising  tempest. 

Mr.  Mason  of  Southampton  said,  that  he  had  been  a  member  of  the  Senate,  which 
gave  its  assent  to  the  act  in  question.  lie  trusted  he  should  be  the  last  to  be  guilty 
of  any  act  of  treachery  to  the  freeholders  of  the  Commonv/ealth :  he  had  always 
maintained  that  freeholders  alone  had  a  right  to  elect  members  of  the  Convention, 
and  afterwards  to  pass  upon  its  acts.  In  that  sentiment  he  agreed  entirely  wath  the 
gentleman  from  Charlotte.  It  would  be  recollected  that  the  bill  finally  passed,  was  a 
substitute  for  another  bill  from  the  House,  tie  had  regretted  to  find  in  nearly  half 
the  Senate,  a  feeling  similar  to  tliat  now  manifested  by  the  gentleman  from  Amherst; 
and  that  they  were  disposed  to  take  the  Government  out  of  the  hands  of  the  free- 
holders. The  task  of  the  friends  of  the  freeholders  had  been  a  very  delicate  one,  yet 
they  finally  succeeded  in  establishing  the  principle  they  wished.  He  believed  most 
religiously  that  a  majority  had  been,  and  still  were,  opposed  to  the  call  of  a  Conven- 
tion ;  nevertheless,  his  duty  as  a  public  functionary  required  of  him  to  give  effect  to 
the  bill.  The  law  fixed  the  time  and  the  mode  in  v;hich  members  of  the  Convention 
were  to  be  elected ;  but  the  Legislature  did  not  stop  there  :  they  knew  that  the  acts 
of  the  Convention  would  be  inchoate  and  in  fieri,  until  they  vv^ere  ratified.  What 
then,  had  the  Legislature  to  do  The  public  officers  were  bound  by  acts  of  the  As- 
sembly, under  penalties  that  might  be  recovered,  and  he  felt  bound  to  say,  that  the 
officers  should  act  under  such  penalties  as  the  Assembly  might  require,  and  he  had 
accordingly  voted  that  tlie  sheriffs,  whenever  the  proceedings  of  the  Convention 
should  have  been  published,  should  take  the  sense  of  the  people  thereon.  The  Legis- 
lature never  had  intended  to  prescribe  who  should  vote  on  that:  they  had  never 
dreamed  of  any  such  meaning  as  was  now  contended  for  the  act ;  an  interpretation, 
which  virtually  gave  to  the  act  of  the  Con.vention  the  force  of  law.  The  sheriffs 
were  directed  to  take  the  sense  of  the  people,  by  v/hich  was  understood  the  sense  of 
the  voters  or  of  such  other  persons  as  the  Convention  might  designate.  If  the  Con- 
vention should  adjourn  v/ithout  saying  who  were  to  vote  upon  the  final  question,  then 
the  provisions  of  the  act  were  simply  a  declaration  that  the  voters  should  decide.  Af- 
ter that  explanation,  he  hoped  that  none  would  impute  to  the  Legislature  any  act  of 
usurpation.  He  did  not  believe  that  the  people  ever  ratified  the  law.  They  had,  in- 
deed, elected  members  under  it,  but  that  was  purely  in  self-defence.  Mr.  M.  said,  he 
would  address  one  consideration  to  the  good  sense  of  the  gentleman  from  Frederick, 
(Mr.  Cooke.)  The  Assembly  had  prescribed  one  mode  for  carrying  the  new  Consti- 
tution into  effect;  that  gentleman  now  proposed  a  dilierent  mode.  Bat,  if  the  peo- 
ple had  ratified  the  act  as  was  contended  by  that  gentleman,  whence  did  the  Conven- 
tion derive  its  authority But  this  was  an  argument  for  that  gentleman  alone.  For 
himself,  he  did  not  believe  that  the  people  ever  had  ratified  the  act,  and  after  all,  the 
whole  purpose  of  the  act  itself,  was  to  devolve  a  duty  on  the  sheriffs  and  to  compel 
them  to  perform  it.  Mr.  M.  concluded  by  saying,  that  he  had  only  risen  for  the  pur- 
pose of  withdrawing  himself  from  the  strong  terms  of  censure,  used  by  the  gentle- 
man from  Charlotte,  in  reference  to  the  act,  and  to  those  who  passed  it. 

Mr.  Randolph  rose  in  reply.  I  can  assure  the  most  worthy  and  highly  respectable 
gentleman  from  Southampton,  that  nothing  was  farther  from  my  intention  than  to 
impute  to  him  any  wrong  in  word,  thought  or  deed.  Sir,  my  language  was  altogether 
hypothetical.  I  insisted,  that  if  that  which  was  contended  for  were  true,  then  the 
Legislature  had  been  guilty  of  treacherj/ — and  nothing  is  more  true. 

As  to  the  gentleman  from  Amherst,  I  can  only  say  that  I  could  not  understand  him. 
The  gentleman  imputes  it  as  a  fault  to  me,  that  whereas  the  Governor  of  Virginia 
has  always  heretofore  been  elected  by  the  people,  1  am  willing  to  continue  that  mode 
of  election,  because  I  believe  that  the  opinions  of  the  General  Assembly  are  usually 
a  fair  expression  of  the  sentiments  of  the  people.  But,  what  analogy  is  there  between 
such  a  belief  and  the  opinions  that  the  General  Assembly  have  a  right  to  alter  the 
Constitution  in  one  jot  or  tittle  ^  Sir,  I  am  not  such  a  mad-man — such  a  moon-struck 
maniac — as  to  attempt  to  butt  against  the  united  force  of  the  whole  people  of  Vir- 
ginia, backed  by  the  General  Assembly.    All  I  contend  for  is,  that  if  the  act  is  to  be 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


889 


SO  construed — and  I  acknowledge  myself  a  poor  hand  at  construction — though  I  think 
1  have  seen  courts  that  were  little  better — then  the  act  was  a  gross  act  of  treachery  to 
those  whose  trustees  they  were. 

No  gentleman  who  liears  me,  will  deny  that  the  provision,  with  respect  to  the 
Right  of  Sutfrage,  is  among  tlie  most  important  parts  of  the  Constitution.  Kow,  with 
regard  to  all  the  other  parts  of  it,  the  action  of  this  House  is  held  to  be  advisory  and 
initiatory  only.  On  every  other  subject,  we  are  merely  advisers ;  but,  if  the  con- 
struction of  the  act  be  good,  which  is  here  contended  for,  we  are  not,  as  it  respects 
this  particular  thing,  advisers  at  all.  We  do  not  advise — we  decree.  Is  it  possible 
there  can  be  any  so  obtuse  as  not  to  perceive  the  distinction  ?  Decrevimvs — we  have 
decreed.  Sir,  if  we  have  the  power  to  decree  with  respect  to  the  Right  of  Suffrage — 
why  not  with  respect  to  the  apportionment  of  representation  ?  I  would  thank  any 
gentleman  to  take  me  out  of  t.*-iat  difficulty — or  himself  rather.  I  ask  again,  if  we 
may  decree  with  respect  to  this  question,  why  not  with  respect  to  all  questions.^  Sir, 
the  right  cannot  be  denied. 

As  to  being  actuated  by  any  wish  for  the  adoption  or  the  rejection  of  the  Constitu- 
tion, if  this  were  a  mere  question  of  expediency,  it  might  be  so ;  but,  he  knows  little 
of  me,  who  thinks  that  in  a  question  of  vital  principle,  1  can  be  so  actuated.  Sir,  it 
is  a  principle  as  clear  to  me  as  anj^  in  mathematics,  that  the  whole  authority  in  this  body 
lias  emanated  from  the  people.  The  Assembly  took  on  themselves — in  a  case,  1  grant, 
of  extreme  necessity — what  they  had  not  a  riglit  to  do.  I  grant  that  this  act  was  af- 
terwards cured  by  the  act  of  the  freeholders — that  is,  supposing  they  approved  it — it 
was  so  far  cured — not  entirely.  But,  the  second  Act  of  Assembly  has  not  been  rati- 
fied at  all — the  freeholders  have  never  passed  upon  it  in  any  shape.  If  my  resolution 
shall  be  adopted,  they  will  haA^e  to  do  so — nay,  if  a  majority  of  the  voters — pot-boilers 
and  all — shall  have  approved  or  rejected  the  Constitution,  then  that  Act  of  the  As- 
sembly will  have  been  ratified — but  not  till  then.  It  is  still  s^ih  judice.  Sir,  I  am 
wasting  time — I  am  burning  day-light — to  argue  the  question,  whether  this  House 
can  act  definitively  on  any  one  subject. 

In  regard  to  the  threats  of  the  gentleman,  that  he  will  move  a  re-consideration, 
they  have  no  effect  on  me  whatever.  I  am  perfectl}^  impassive  to  any  such  threat.  1 
have  not  the  least  objection  in  the  world  that  he  should  make  that  motion  this  moment. 

Mr.  Johnson  now  rose  to  give  a  brief  explanation  of  his  views  on  this  subject. 
After  quoting  the  Act  at  large,  he  stated  his  understanding  of  its  meaning  to  be,  that 
in  case  the  Convention  should  make  no  other  provision,  the  sheriffs  were  to  take  the 
votes  of  all  such  persons  as  the  Convention  should  declare  duly  qualified  to  vote  for 
members  of  the  House  of  Delegates ;  but,  that  if  the  Convention  should  not  approve 
of  that  arrangement,  it  was  for  them  to  prescribe  to  whom  the  Constitution  should  be 
submitted.  The  proposition  of  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte  was  not  decided  upon 
by  the  act,  and  it  was  still  competent  to  the  Convention  to  say,  that  the  Constitution 
should  be  submitted  to  freeholders  only,  if  so  they  thought  best;  otherwise,  they 
might  say  nothing  at  all  on  the  subject,  and  leave  the  matter  Avhere  the  act  had  placed 
it.  This  was  his  understanding  of  the  meaning  of  the  act.  As  to  its  authority,  he 
had  already  admitted,  and  he  now  repeated  the  admission,  that  the  General  Assembly 
had  no  legitimate  power  to  pass  such  an  act.  The  only  power  the  Assembly  could 
possess  must  be  received  from  its  constituents,  and  must  either  be  previously  given, 
or  implied  in  their  subsequent  ratification.  How,  then,  stood  the  question  ?  By  the 
first  act,  the  question  was  to  be  submitted  to  the  freeholders,  whether  they  desired  a 
Convention  or  not.  The  question  was  put  accordingly,  and  what  was  to  be  regarded 
as  a  majority  of  the  freeholders,  declared  that  a  Convention  should  be  held.  But 
how  ?  As  the  people  might  prescribe  ?  As  the  people  themselves  should  determine 
in  their  parishes,  in  the  election  districts,  at  their  court-houses,  and  their  muster- 
fields No.  It  was  the  intention  of  tlie  people,  that  the  expression  of  the  public 
will  should  be  given  by  the  Legislature,  as  well  with  respect  to  the  manner  in  which 
the  Convention  was  to  proceed,  as  to  the  purposes  for  which  it  was  to  be  holden. 
Here,  then,  was  the  authority  of  the  constituent  bod}'.  Here  was  the  voice  of  the 
principals  to  whom  the  Legislature  were  but  agents.  Acting  under  that  authority, 
they  declared  the  manner  and  purpose  of  the  Convention;  but,  that  declaration  was 
not  obligatory — it  had  no  sanction — it  did  not  bind  the  freeholders  to  send  Delegates. 
If  it  contained  any  thing  which  the  freeholders  did  not  approve,  they  might  have  ar- 
rested the  proceeding.  They  had  the  same  authority  to  give  counter  instructions,  as 
they  had  to  give  original  instructions.  They  could  have  gone  to  the  polls  again,  and 
commanded  their  Delegates  to  repeal  the  act.  But  as  the  case  was,  the  Delegates,  if 
they  acted  at  all  in  the  matter,  had  plainly  to  prescribe  the  objects  of  the  Convention, 
and  how  they  were  to  be  attained.  The  whole  subject  had  been  referred  to  them — 
there  was  no  other  wa}''  to  do  it — and  the  only  remedy  was  to  arrest  the  matter  in 
fieri.  That  was  the  only  safe,  the  only  proper  and  wise  remedy,  which  they  could 
retain  in  their  hands.  Such  being  the  case,  what  had  been  done  ?  The  act,  when 
presented  to  the  freeholders,  had  been  acquiesced  in  by  the  election  of  members  every 


890 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


where  without  complaint  or  remonstrance.  Was  there  any  other  mode  in  which  the 
people  could  express  their  approbation  ?  If  there  was,  then  the  act  was  still  unrati- 
fied, and  the  members  were  assembled  there  by  the  Legislature  alone.  What  were 
they  doing?  They  were  proceeding  solemnly  to  sign,  seal  and  deliver  to  the  people 
the  plan  of  a  new  Constitution  ;  and  yet  would  they  say  that  this  was  done  without 
authority  ?  That  it  was  all  void  ?  It  could  not  be.  And  if  the  act  had  been  ac- 
cepted by  the  people,  he  begged  gentlemen  to  tell  him  what  part  of  it  had  been  ac- 
cepted, and  what  part  rejected What  was  their  authority,  and  what  was  not  their 
authority  ?  From  that  act  they  derived  their  powers,  and  if  any,  then  all  that  it  con- 
tained. 

It  had  been  said,  that  the  Convention  was  acting  definitively  on  the  subject  of  the 
Right  of  SufiJi-age,  without  consulting  their  constituents.  This  was  true — and  why .'' 
Their  constituents  had  authorised  them  so  to  do.  Would  it  be  contended,  that  their 
constituents  had  no  such  authority  ?  That  they  could  not  give  such  power  to  their 
agents  beforehand  ?  Was  the  principal  necessarily  bound  to  retain  the  right  of  rati- 
fying the  acts  of  his  agent?  He  had  never  understood  so.  It  might  have  been  un- 
wise in  them  to  do  so ;  but,  that  was  a  question  for  the  constituent  body  alone.  If 
they  chose  to  do  so,  why  might  they  not?  Suppose  the  Constitution  which  they  had 
now  made  should  be  rejected  by  the  people — had  they  no  Government  under  them  ? 
Would  they  have  no  Constitution  ?  He  was  sure  the  gentleman  from  Charlotte  would 
not  say  so.  [Mr.  R.  That  1  won't.]  How  came  that  Constitution  to  be  the  supreme 
law  of  the  land  ?  Had  it  ever  been  submitted  to  the  constituent  body  for  their  ratifi- 
cation ?  Had  they  ever  voted  on  it  at  the  polls  ?  How  else  had  the  people  expressed 
their  assent  to  it,  than  by  the  election  of  Delegates  under  it,  and  by  a  tacit  acquies- 
cence. The  authority  of  those  who  framed  it  was  a  general  grant  of  power  to  pro- 
vide for  the  exigencies  of  the  times — to  adopt  a  form  of  Government  for  the  Com- 
monwealth. He  did  not  believe  they  had  usurped  any  authority.  There  had  been  a 
great  political  emergency.  That  form  of  Government  had  been  provided,  and  the 
people  exercised  their  pleasure  respecting  it.  They  gave  no  other  vote  but  the  sub- 
stantial act  of  using  it  as  their  shield,  and  adopting  it  as  their  own.  Mr.  J.  concluded 
that  there  could  be  no  doubt  of  the  right  of  the  original  body  to  give  such  authority 
as  the  act  contained — they  had  given  it — and  under  that  authority,  it  was  at  the  dis- 
cretion of  the  Convention  to  submit  the  new  Constitution  to  whom  they  would.  He 
would  submit  one  consideration  which  was  entitled  to  respect  from  every  one  who 
was  not  a  friend  of  revolutionary  scenes — that  it  was  of  the  last  importance,  to  do  all 
in  their  power  to  save  the  necessity  of  resort  to  original  Assemblies  of  the  people, 
and  in  place  of  this,  to  facilitate,  as  much  as  possible,  the  use  of  legislative  acts  under 
the  people's  sanction.  But,  how  could  this  be  done,  if  the  Convention  should  pay 
no  respect  to  the  very  act  under  which  they  were  assembled ;  but,  claiming  to  be  the 
people  acting  by  their  representatives,  to  set  aside  its  provisions,  and  adopt  others  in 
their  place  ?  He  thought  it  was  becoming  in  them  to  show  all  respect  to  an  Act  of 
the  Assembly,  which  the  people  themselves  had  sanctioned. 

On  the  question  of  expediency  he  had  little  to  say,  and  he  felt  but  little  concerned. 
As  one  of  the  minority,  he  could  not  be  expected  to  feel  an  overweening  zeal  for  the 
adoption  of  this  Constitution.  He  regretted  much  that  it  had  proved  to  be  a  Consti- 
tution for  which  he  could  not  feel  some,  yea,  a  deep  interest.  He  should  vote  on  the 
present  question  in  conformity  with  what  he  believed  to  be  just  and  sound  principles, 
and  not  as  looking  to  the  consequences  of  his  vote  upon  either  the  adoption  or  rejec- 
tion of  the  Constitution.  He  thought  it  right  to  submit  the  final  question  to  the  qua- 
lified voters  of  the  Commonwealth.  The  Convention  declared  them  (he  did  not)  the 
proper  depositories  of  tlie  sovereignty  of  the  country ;  the  fit  associates  of  all  who 
exercise  that  sovereignty  now,  and  he  trusted  that  none  who  had  declared  this,  would 
consider  these  same  persons,  unfit  to  be  consulted  on  the  question,  whether  the  Con- 
stitution settled  them  or  no.  They  who  are  to  be  the  sovereigns  of  the  land,  were 
certainly  the  persons  to  answer  such  a  question.  The  freeholders  had  said  so,  and 
the  Convention,  as  their  representatives,  ought  to  say  so  too. 

Mr.  Randolph  replied.  There  is  much  ingenuity  in  the  argument  of  the  learned 
gentleman  from  Augusta  :  notwithstanding — it  happens  to  the  argument  of  that  gen- 
tleman as  it  often  does  to  the  arguments  of  men  fully  his  equals — it  has  no  substan- 
tial force.  So  far  as  my  opinion  is  concerned,  the  gentleman  might  have  spared  him- 
self the  trouble  of  a  demonstration,  that  it  was  competent  to  the  freeholders  to  have 
invested  this  body — if  so  it  had  seemed  good  to  them — with  absolute  power  to  dictate 
a  Constitution  like  Solon  or  Lycurgus  (great  men  whom  we  should  then  have  re- 
sembled in  one  respect  at  least.)  But  I  put  it  to  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  whe- 
ther there  was  a  single  man  in  the  Commonwealth,  who  did  believe,  when  he  voted 
for  members  to  this  body,  that  whereas  our  powers  on  all  other  points  were  to  be  the 
powers  of  advisers  only,  on  this  point  alone,  were  we  to  be  absolute. 

If  the  freeholders  chose  to  invest  men  with  power  to  make  a  Constitution  over  which 
they  were  themselves  to  have  no  control^,  that  is  one  question  :  but  can  the  legal  sub- 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


891 


tleties  of  the  learned  gentleman  bear  liim  out  in  the  earnest  belief,  that  the  freeholders 
ever  intended  to  invest  us  with  plenary  powers  on  this  one  point  and  not  on  any  of 
the  rest?  That  it  ever  entered  the  head  of  a  freeliolder  in  the  State,  when  he 
went  to  the  polls,  to  give  us  absolute  power  in  miy  thing?  Sir,  there  is  not  such  an 
honest  raan  in  the  State.  None  who  ever  proposed  a  Convention,  ever  thought  of 
giving  its  members  a  power  of  attorney  to  make  a  Constitution  absolute,  in  the  one 
respect,  and  advisory  in  every  other.  Sir.  it  is  a  monster  unknown.  The  people 
have  been  foolish  enough  in  all  ages  to  give  up  their  liberty,  but  they  have  never  con- 
sented to  give  up  one  half  of  their  liberty,  while  they  insisted  on  retaining  the  rest. 
The  people  of  Virginia  did  no  such  thing.  They  empowered  tliis  Convention  as  ad- 
visers only,  and  if  under  the  quirk — I  must  be  permitted  to  use  the  term — if  under  this 
quirk,  the  people  shall  be  entrapped  as  to  one  of  the  greatest  branches  of  power,  any 
honest  Chancellor  would  be  entitled  to  give  them  redress. 

Sir,  I  am  afraid  that  I  am  very  unfit  for  the  task  I  have  undertaken,  but  nothing  is 
more  clear  to  me,  than  that  the  attempt  of  the  gentleman  from  Augusta,  is  an  illu- 
sion— it  is  a  deception  : — not  that  it  is  so  meant — but  the  gentleman's  ov.m  ingenuity 
has  led  him  astray — I  would  put  the  question  to  any  man — yes,  Sir,  to  any  woman — 
in  the  Commonwealth,  and  the  decision  of  all  would  be  the  same. 

Mr.  iVicholas  observed,  that  it  might  well  have  been  anticipated,  that  the  question, 
to  whom  the  ratiiication  or  rejection  of  the  Constitution  was  to  be  submitted,  would 
prove  one  of  great  interest  and  importance.  He  had  reflected  on  it,  and  endeavoured 
to  ascertain  what  course  he  ought  to  pursue  in  its  decision.  The  result  of  this  en- 
quiry was,  that  the  subject  should  be  referred  to  the  persons  authorised  to  vote  under 
the  existing  Constitution.  It  appeared  to  him  that  there  are  two  modes  in  which  a 
Government  can  be  changed.  The  one,  where  the  people  being  oppressed,  resort  to 
the  original  and  inherent  right  to  resist  despotic  powers,  and  to  carve  out  their  own 
redress,  by  overturning  the  existing  establishment.  This  is  revolution,  in  the  plain 
and  simple  meaning  of  that  term.  The  other  is,  where  the  community  agrees  to  mo- 
dify its  existing  institutions,  with  the  consent  of  the  actual  Government.  This  is  the 
course  which  has  been  pursued  in  the  present  instance.  Application  was  made  to 
the  Legislature  to  submit  the  question  of  Convention  to  the  public  decision.  They 
submitted  it  to  the  freeholders,  from  whom  they  derived  their  power,  and  to  whom 
alone  they  had  a  right  to  make  the  appeal.  By  this  act,  they  recognized,  and  admit- 
ted the  principle,  that  in  this  mode  of  changing  a  Government,  the  only  persons 
who  had  the  right  to  decide,  were  those  who  were  the  depositories  of  the  powers  of 
the  present  Government.  If  the  principle  be  correct,  it  would  seem  to  follow  as  an 
inevitable  consequence,  that  the  assent  of  the  freeholders  ought  to  be  obtained  to  the 
amended  Constitution  to  give  it  validity.  Every  reason  which  could  be  urged,  for 
referring  the  question  of  calhng  a  Convention  to  the  freeholders,  applies  with  equal 
force  to  shew,  that  the  ratification  or  rejection  should  also  be  submitted  to  them.  But, 
it  is  contended,  that  the  freeholders  ha.ve  assented  to  a  reference  of  this  question  to 
others  than  themselves.  The  law  submitting  the  question  to  the  freeholders,  only  re- 
quired them  to  say    Convention  or  No  Convention." 

Their  decision  in  favour  of  a  Convention,  did  not  waive  their  right  to  pronounce 
on  the  form  of  government,  which  might  be  tendered  for  their  acceptance,  nor 
amount  to  a  sanction  of  all  the  provisions  wliicli  might  be  incorporated  into  an  act 
calling  the  Convention.  Nor  is  the  argument  valid,  which  attempts  to  shew  that 
sending  delegates  to  the  Convention  implied  an  assent  to  all  the  provisions  of  the 
law,  where  those  provisions  exceed  the  power  given  the  Legislature,  which  was  sim- 
ply to  call  a  Convention.  This  has  been  satisfactorily  shewn  by  the  gentleman  from 
Charlotte,  (Mr.  Randolph.)  The  freeholders  in  one  section,  knowing  that  those  in 
another  would  send  deputies,  were  placed  in  a  situation,  where  they  were  compelled 
to  do  the  same,  or  suffer  a  Constitution  to  be  got  up,  by  one-half  of  the  State  to  the 
exclusion  of  the  other.  And  though  the  authority  of  such  a  Constitution  might  be 
well  questioned,  yet  the  conflict  about  it  might  have  convulsed  the  State.  The  ar- 
gument that  the  people  might  have  remonstrated  against  the  terms  of  the  law,  is  not 
sufficient  to  shew,  that  the'  Legislature  did  not  transcend  their  powers,  in  referring 
the  subject  to  voters  other  than  freeholders. 

The  omission  to  remonstrate  in  this  way,  does  not  prove  that  the  Legislature  acted 
within  the  sphere  of  their  legitimate  power;  or  otherwise,  every  tyrannical,  or  uncon- 
stitutional act,  where  the  people  do  not  remonstrate,  may  be  proved  to  be  wise  and 
constitutional. 

Besides,  the  people  had  no  opportunity  to  interfere;  the  law  of  the  last  Assembly 
was  to  go  into  effect,  before  another  meeting  of  that  body  was  to  take  place.  It  ap- 
pears to^'me,  then,  that  the  freeholders  have  done  no  act  to  exclude  their  right  to  be 
heard  on  this  subject.  If  it  be  admitted,  that  the  change  in  the  government  can  only 
be  made,  with  the  assent  of  those  who  possess  the  power,  the  reference  of  the  ques- 
tion to  those  not  now  entitled  to  vote,  would  present  a  curious  political  anomaly.  In 
the  first  place,  on  a  question  whether  the  Constitution  is  to  be  adopted,  we  are  to  an- 


892 


DEBATES   OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


ticipate,  that  it  will  be  so  adopted,  and  give  the  decision  to  those  who  are  to  possess 
no  political  power  until  after  the  event  takes  place.  Instead  of  obtaining  the  assent 
of  those  in  whose  hands  the  power  of  government  is,  we  are  to  unite  in  the  decision 
of  numerous  classes,  who  constitute  no  part  of  the  actual  government. 

In  doing  this,  we  not  only  depart  from  the  principles  ]  have  endeavoured  to  enforce, 
but  adopt  their  very  opposites,  as  rules  of  action.  Suppose  all  the  freeholders,  or  a 
majority  were  to  decide  one  way ;  and  a  greater  number  of  other,  and  new  voters  the 
other.  The  decision  would  then  be  made,  not  with  the  assent  of  the  existing  authori- 
ties of  the  country,  but  against  it.  I  do  not  feel  at  liberty  to  enquire  into  the  effect 
which  the  decision  of  this  question  will  have  on  the  rejection,  or  adoption  of  the  new 
Constitution.    Ideas  of  expediency,  are  not  those  which  ought  to  govern  my  vote. 

I  must  leave  the  fate  of  the  Constitution  to  be  decided  by  my  constituents.  All  we 
can  do,  is  to  adopt  the  best  we  can  get,  and  let  those  who  sent  us  here,  decide  whether 
their  happiness  will  be  promoted  by  what  is  offered  to  them.  In  their  decision,  I  shall 
acquiesce  with  pleasure.  But  in  determining  the  great  and  interesting  question  un- 
der discussion,  I  must,  as  an  honest  man,  and  a  faithful  representative,  give  my  vote  as 
my  conscience  directs,  regardless  of  consequences.  I  am  here  the  representative  of 
the  freeholders.  I  do  believe,  that  they  have  the  right  to  decide  this  question,  both 
on  principle,  and  on  a  just  construction  of  the  various  Legislative  acts,  and  the  pro- 
ceedings which  have  taken  place  under  them,  and  I  cannot  consent  to  be  instru- 
mental in  depriving  m^  constituents  of  that  right. 

Mr.  Stuart  wished  to  make  a  single  remark  as  to  the  question  of  power,  not  of  ex- 
pediency. The  gentleman  from  Charlotte  had  said  that  the  people  had  not  done  so 
foolish  a  thing  as  to  say,  that  the  Convention  might  make  a  Constitution  without  sub- 
mitting it  to  them.  But  vv^here  did  they  say  so  ?  only  in  the  act  of  their  representa- 
tives. That  was  the  only  expression  of  their  will,  and  that  act,  while  it  restrained  the 
powers  of  the  Convention  in  one  respect,  extended  them  in  another,  and  it  was  cer- 
tainly as  valid  in  extending  as  in  restraining. 

Mr.  Moore  asked  that  the  question  should  be  taken  by  ayes  and  noes.  It  was  so 
taken  accordingly,  and  decided  as  follows  : 

Jlyes — Messrs.  Jones,  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Taylor  of  Chesterfield,  Giles,  Brodnax, 
Dromgoole,  Alexander,  Nicholas,  Mason  of  Southampton,  Trezvant,  Claiborne,  Urqu- 
hart,  Randolph,  Leigh  of  Halifax,  Logan,  Venable,  Holladay,  Roane,  Morris,  Gar- 
nett,  Tazewell,  Loyall,  Prentis,  Grigsby,  Branch,  Coalter,  Upshur  and  Perrin — 28. 

JVoes — Messrs.  Barbour,  (President,)  Goode,  Marshall  of  Richmond,  Tyler,  Clop- 
ton,  Anderson,  Coffman,  Harrison,  Williamson,  Baldwin,  Johnson,  M'Coy,  Moore, 
Beirne,  Smith,  Miller,  Baxter,  Madison,  Stanard,  Fitzhugh,  Henderson,  Osborne, 
Cooke,  Powell,  Griggs,  Mason  of  Frederick,  Naylor,  Donaldson,  Boyd,  Pendleton, 
George,  M'Millan,  Campbell  of  "Washington,  Byars,  Taylor  of  Caroline,  Cloyd, 
Chapman,  Mathews,  Oglesby,  Duncan,  Laidley,  Summers,  See,  Morgan,  Campbell 
of  Brooke,  Wilson,  Barbour  of  Culpeper,  Scott,  Green,  Marshall  of  Fauquier,  Camp- 
bell of  Bedford,  Claytor,  Saunders,  Townes,  Cabell,  Martin,  Stuart,  Pleasants,  Gordon, 
Thompson,  Massie,  Bates,  Neale,  Rose,  Joynes  and  Bayly— 66. 

So  the  resolution  of  Mr.  Randolph  was  rejected. 

Mr.  Cooke  now  moved  the  consideration  of  so  much  of  his  propositions  as  had  not 
been  superseded,  as  follows  : 

I.  It  shall  be  the  duty  of  the  Executive  Department  of  the  existing  Government, 
so  soon  as  all  the  returns  required  by  the  twentieth  section  of  the  Act  of  the  General 
Assembly,  entitled,  An  Act  to  organize  a  Convention,"  shall  have  been  made,  if  it 
shall  appear  that  a  majority  of  all  the  votes  given  is  for  ratifying  this  amended  Con- 
stitution, forthwith  to  make  proclamation  of  the  fact. 

"  II.  And  it  shall  moreover  be  the  duty  of  the  Executive  Department,  in  and  by 
such  proclamation,  to  command  the  sheriffs  and  other  officers,  directed  by  law  to  hold 
and  superintend  elections,  under  the  penalt}'^  of  dollars  for  failing  to  obey  such 

command,  to  open  polls  in  their  respective  counties,  cities,  towns  and  boroughs,  and 
in  the  election  districts  established  by  law  in  their  respective  counties,  on  the 

,  for  the  election  of  a  Delegate  or  Delegates,  as  the  case  may  be,  to 
represent  the  counties,  towns,  boroughs  and  districts,  respectively  mentioned  and 
described  in  the  third  article  of  this  Constitution,  and  of  a  Senator  to  represent  each 
of  the  Senatoi'ial  districts  described  in  the  fourth  article. 

"  III.  So  soon  as  the  said  election  of  Delegates  and  Senators  shall  have  been  made, 
the  previously  existing  Senate  and  House  of  Delegates,  elected  under  the  old  Con- 
stitution, shall  cease  to  have  legal  and  constitutional  existence. 

"  IV.  Should  any  of  the  contingencies  herein  before  mentioned,  render  it  necessary 
or  proper  to  convene  a  General  Assembly,  after  such  election  shall  have  been  made, 
and  before  the  time  herein  after  appointed  for  the  first  regular  annual  meeting  of  the 
General  Assembly  under  this  amended  Constitution,  the  new  General  Assembly 
shall  be  convened  by  the  Executive  Department  holding  its  power  and  authority  under 
the  old  Constitution. 


DEBATES    OF   THE  CONVENTION. 


893 


''V.  The  first  regular  General  Assembly  under  this  amended  Constitution,  shall 
convene  and  assemble  at  the  Capitol,  in  the  City  of  Richmond,  on  the 

He  briefly  recapitulated  the  arg'ument  he  had  before  urged  in  support  of  his  plan. 

He  moved  to  fill  the  first  blank  with  "  8  5.000  the  second  blank  with  "  the  first 
day  of  November  term,  in  the  year  1830  ;"'  and  the  third  blank  with  "  first  Monday 
in  January,  1S31 :"  which  amendments  were  agreed  to. 

3Ir.  Leigh  then  moved  a  substitute  for  the  entire  proposition  submitted  by  Mr, 
Cooke.  He  supported  the  amendment,  by  referring  to  the  argument  of  Mr.  Sta- 
nard  of  yesterday,  which  went  to  shew  the  necessity  of  some  test  of  voters,  to  be  a 
guide  for  the  sheriffs  at  the  polls. 

ISIr.  Stanard  proposed  the  following  orders  : 

Ordcied.  That  the  roll  containing  the  draught  of  the  amended  Constitution  adopted 
by  this  Convention,  and  by  it  submitted  to  the  people  of  this  Commonwealth,  for  their 
ratification  or  rejection,  be  enclosed  by  the  Secretary  in  a  case  proper  for  its  preserva- 
tion, and  deposited  among  the  archives  of  the  Council  of  State. 

••'  Ordered.  That  the  Secretary  do  cause  the  Journal  of  the  Proceedings  of  this  Con- 
vention to  be  entered  in  a  well-bound  book  ;  and  after  the  same  shall  have  been  signed 
by  the  President  and  attested  by  the  Secretary,  that  he  deposit  the  same,  together  with 
all  the  original  documents  in  the  possession  of  the  Convention,  and  connected  with 
its  Proceedings,  among  the  archives  of  the  Council  of  State  ;  and  furtlier.  that  he 
cause  ten  printed  copies  of  the  said  Journal  to  be  well  bound,  and  deposited  in  the 
public  Library.'" 

Mr.  Leigh  approved  of  the  orders. 

Mr.  Coo^e  also,  of  the  first  two ;  and  it  was  agreed  the  test  question  should  be  put 
on  the  last. 

Mr.  Leigh  modified  his  amendment,  combining  it  with  Mr.  Stanard's  third  order, 
60  as  to  read  as  follows  : 

Ordered.  That  the  President  of  the  Convention  do  certify  a  true  copy  of  the 
amended  Constitution  to  the  General  Assembly  now  in  session  ;  and  that  the  General 
Assembly  be,  and  they  are  hereby  requested  to  make  any^ additional  provisions  by  law, 
which  may  be  necessary  and  proper  for  submitting  the  same  to  the  voters  thereby 
qualified  to  vote  for  members  of  the  General  Assembly,  at  the  nest  April  elections, 
and  for  organizing  the  Government  under  tlie  amended  Constitution,  in  case  it  shall 
be  approved  and  ratified  by  such  voters." 

3Ir.  Johnson  expressed  his  preference  of  Mr.  Leigh's  amendment  over  that  of  Mr. 
Cooke,  but  could  not  wholly  approve  either.  He  denied  the  right  of  the  existing  Le- 
gislature to  act  in  the  case,  and  the  right  of  the  Convention  to  invite  them  to  do  an 
unauthorised  act.  If  the  act  had  provided  no  means  for  carrying  the  Constitution 
into  effect,  he  should  not  have  denied  that  the  Convention  would  have  had  the  inci- 
dental right  to  make  provision  for  that  end  ;  but,  as  the  act  had  itself  provided,  that 
part  of  the  subject  was  taken  out  of  their  hands. 

Mr.  Johnson  then  moved  an  amendment  to  the  amendment  of  Mr.  Leigh,  by 
strikinsf  out  from  tlie  word  the,"  in  the  second  line  of  the  third  order,  to  the  end 
thereof,  and  inserting  the  following- : 

Executive  of  this  Commonwealth,  with  a  request  that  it  be  published,  in  order  to 
be  submitted  to  the  people,  for  ratification  or  rejection,  at  the  April  elections  in  the 
present  year,  pursuant  to  the  provisions  of  the  nineteenth  section  of  the  Act  of  tlie 
General  Assembly,  entitled,  An  Act  to  organize  a  Convention,"  passed  the  10th  of 
February,  1529." 

Both  Messrs.  Leigh  and  Johnson  defended  their  own  amendments  by  an  eloquent 
speech. 

Mr.  Johnson's  amendment  was  rejected. 

!Mr.  Cooke  moved  a  division  of  the  question,  so  that  the  vote  be  first  taken  upon 
the  third  order  contained  in  Zvlr.  Leiorh's  proposed  substitute ;  which  was  agreed  to  by 
the  House. 

And  the  question  being  put  accordingh^,  was  determined  in  the  affirmative — Ayes 
51,  Noes  43. 

The  question  then  recurred  upon  agreeing  to  the  two  first  orders  contained  in  Mr. 
Leigh's  proposed  substitute,  and  was  determined  in  the  affirmative. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Leigh  of  Chesterfield,  Resolved.  That  the  President  do  now  sign 
tile  enroled  amended  Constitution,  adopted  by  this  Convention,  and  that  the  Secre- 
tary do  attest  the  same ;  which  was  done  accordingly. 

The  President  then  retired,  having  called  INIr.  Stanard  to  the  Chair. 

On  motion  of  3Ir.  Stuart,  the  following  resolutions  were  agreed  to  : 

Resolved.  That  the  President  of  this  Convention  tender  to  the  Pastor  and  Trustees 
of  the  First  Baptist  Church  the  thanks  of  this  Convention  for  the  use  of  their  Church. 

Resolved^  That  the  President  of  this  Convention  tender  to  the  Clergy  of  this  City 
the  thanks  of  the  Convention  for  the  promptness  and  punctuality  with  which  they 
have  complied  with  the  request  of  the  Convention,  in  opening  its  daily  sessions  by 
prayer. 


894 


DEBATES  OF  THE  CONVENTION. 


Mr.  Randolph  then  rose  and  addressed  the  Convention  nearly  as  follows  : 
Mr.  Chairman, — For  the  last  time,  I  throw  myself  upon  the  indulgence  and  cour- 
tesy of  this  body.  1  have  a  proposition  to  submit,  which  I  flatter  myself— which  1 
trust — I  believe,  will  be  received  not  only  with  greater  unanimity  than  any  other  which 
has  been  offered  in  tlie  course  of  our  past  discussions,  but  with  perfect  unanimity. 
You  will  perceive,  Sir,  that  I  allude  to  your  eminent  colleague,  who  has  presided  over 
our  deliberations.  When  I  shall  have  heard  him  pronounce  from  that  Chair  the 
words  "  This  Convention  stands  adjourned  sine  die,''  I  shall  be  ready  to  sing  my  po- 
litical JYunc  dimittis  ;  for,  it  will  have  put  a  period  to  three  months,  the  most  anxious 
and  painful  of  a  political  life  neither  short  nor  uneventful.  Having  said  thus  much, 
I  hope  I  may  be  permitted  to  add,  that,  notwithstanding  any  occasional  heat  excited 
by  the  collision  of  debate,  I  part  from  every  member  here  with  the  most  hearty  good 
will  towards  all.  But,  I  cannot  consent  that  we  shall  separate  without  offering  the 
tribute  of  my  approbation,  and  inviting  the  House  to  add  theirs — infinitely  more  va- 
luable— to  the  conduct  of  the  presiding  officer  of  this  Assembly.  If  this  were  a  suitable 
occasion,  I  might  embrace  within  the  scope  of  my  motion  and  of  my  remarks  his 
public  conduct  and  character  elsewhere,  with  which  I  have  been  long  and  intimately 
acquainted  :  but  this,  as  it  would  be  misplaced,  so  would  it  be  fulsome — I  shall,  there- 
fore, restrict  myself  to  the  following  motion  : 

"  Resolved,  That  the  impartiality  and  dignity  with  which  Philip  P.  Barbour,  Esq. 
hath  presided  over  the  deliberations  of  this  House,  and  the  distinguished  ability 
whereby  he  hath  facilitated  the  dispatch  of  business,  receive  the  best  thanks  of  the 
Convention." 

The  resolution  was  agreed  to  unanimously,  and  so  entered  on  the  Journal. 

(After  an  account  for  printing  had  been  passed,  and  a  compensation  of  ^  200  voted 
to  the  Secretary  to  cover  the  expense  of  transcribing  the  minutes  into  a  volume,) 

Mr.  Barbour  resumed  the  Chair,  and  addressed  the  Convention  as  follows  : 

Gentlemen  of  the  Convention — Never  in  my  life,  did  I  feel  such  strong  emotions,  as 
those  with  which  I  now  address  you. 

The  resolution  which  you  have  just  passed,  expressive  of  your  approbation  of  my 
conduct,  as  presiding  officer  of  this  Assembly,  is  an  evidence  of  your  good  opinion, 
which  I  shall  long  cherish,  as  one  of  the  most  pleasing  recollections  of  my  life ;  and 
for  which,  I  have  no  return  to  make,  except  the  expression  of  my  sincere  thanks  and 
profound  acknowledgments.  To  be  a  member  even,  of  such  an  assembly  as  this,  im- 
ports a  large  and  gratifying  share  of  public  confidence ;  to  be  called  to  preside  over 
its  deliberations,  is  an  honour  sufficient  to  fill  the  measure  of  a  higher  aspiration 
than  I  dare  pretend  to  ;  to  receive  the  unanimous  testimony  of  its  approbation,  under 
the  circumstances  which  attend  it,  inspires  me  with  the  deepest  sense  of  gratitude. 
It  has  been  said,  gentlemen,  that  the  power  of  legislation  is  the  highest  trust  which 
man  can  confide  to  his  fellow-man  :  this  is  true,  in  those  Governments  in  which  writ- 
ten Constitutions  are  unknown ;  but  the  trust  which  has  been  confided  to  us,  is  a  yet 
higher  one ;  for  to  us,  has  been  delegated  the  power,  of  representing  the  people  in 
their  primary  sovereign  character;  of  forming  a  Constitution,  which,  if  ratified,  will 
create  that  very  legislative  power  which  is  elsewhere  deemed  to  be  omnipotent ; 
which  will  prescribe  to  it,  the  law  of  its  action,  and  the  orbit  in  which  alone,  it  can 
rightfully  move. 

We  have  been  for  a  long  time,  laboriously  engaged  in  this  great  work;  our  labours 
are  now  at  an  end ;  the  Constitution  which  we  have  formed,  is  now  to  be  submitted 
to  the  people,  for  their  ratification  or  rejection. 

In  the  language,  substantially,  of  the  Convention  which  framed  our  Federal  Con- 
stitution, I  will  say — that  it  will  meet  the  full  and  entire  approbation  of  every  portion 
of  the  Commonwealth,  is  not  to  be  expected  ;  but  each  will  doubtless  consider,  that 
had  its  interests  alone  been  consulted,  the  consequences  would  have  been  particularly 
disagreeable,  or  injurious  to  the  others.  Whilst,  therefore,  we  cannot  expect  that  it 
will  be  considered  by  the  people  the  best  form  of  Government  that  could  have  been 
devised,  we  may  indulge  the  hope,  that  as  it  is  the  best  the  discordant  opinions  and 
conflicting  interests  of  the  Commonwealth  enabled  us  to  make,  it  will  be  received  by 
them,  in  the  spirit  of  conciliation  and  compromise;  and  be  accepted,  as  "  the  result 
of  that  mutual  deference  and  concession,  which  the  peculiarity  of  our  political  situa- 
tion rendered  indispensable;"  more  especially,  as  it  will  carry  with  it  this  weighty 
recommendation,  that  we  have  been  aided  in  its  foi-mation,  by  the  experience  and  en- 
lightened counsel  of  the  patriarchs  of  the  land;  of  men,  whom  Virginia  knows  to  be 
her  master  workmen,  in  the  great  art  of  Constitutional  architecture. 

The  general  course  of  our  proceedings,  gentlemen,  has  been  characterized  by  the 
moderation  and  forbearance,  which  became  the  dignity  of  the  occasion,  and  the  great 
questions  which  we  have  been  called  to  decide.  If  in  the  collisions  of  discussion,  an 
occasional  spark  of  excitement  shall  have  been  struck  out,  I  trust,  that  like  that, 
which  is  struck  from  the  flint,  it  will  have  been  extinguished  in  the  moment  which 
gave  it  birth  ;  and  that  we  shall  separate  from  each  other  with  that  reciprocal  feeling 


NEW   CONSTITUTION.  69  5 

of  good  will,  which  will  constitute  the  strongest  cement  of  our  union .  and  bind  us 
together,  in  all  time  to  come,  as  a  people,  one  and  mdizisible. 

In  this  spirit;  I  beseech  you,  let  us  return  to  our  constituents,  resolved  to  cast  oil 
upon  the  waters,  as  far  as  we  can.  to  still  the  agitations  of  the  public  mind,  and  to 
cause  it  to  settle  down,  like  the  unrufned  bosom  of  the  ocean,  into  a  state  of  calm 
tranquilhtj. 

He  who  shall  contribute  to  a  consummation  so  devoutly  to  be  wished,  will  deserve 
well  of  his  country :  and  \vill  assuredly  receive  the  approbation  of  that  country,  the 
highest  and  best  reward  to  faithful  public  servants. 

We  are  now,  gentlemen,  upon  the  eve  of  a  separation,  many  of  us,  perhaps,  never 
to  meet  again — Zvlay  health  and  happiness  attend  you  all — May  you  long  hve  to  see 
this  ancient  and  venerated  Commonwealth,  prosperous  at  home,  respected  abroad — 
May  she  be  looked  up  to  by  our  sister  States,  as  an  example  worthy  of  all  imitation — 
Mar  she  hereafter  be  considered  by  them,  as  she  heretofore  has  been,  the  key-stone 
of  that  arch,  which  supports  our  Federal  Union,  and  whose  strength  I  hope  and  trust, 
will  be  increeised  by  every  increasing  pressure,  wliich  shall  bear  upon  it. 

On  motion  of  ^Ir.  Leigh,  be  then  pronounced  the  welcome  sentence,  ••  This  Con- 
vention stands  adjourned  sixe  due." 


BILL,  OF  RIGHTS. 

A  Beclaraiion  of  Poghts  made  hy  the  Representatires  of  the  good  people  of  Virginia  , 
assembled  in  full  and  free  Coitcention;  ichich  Rights  do  pertain  to  them,  and  their 
posterity,  as  the  basis  and  foundation  of  Goterament. 

(Unanunously  adopted.  June  12th.  1776.) 

1.  That  all  men  are  by  nature  equally  free  and  independent,  and  have  certain  inhe- 
rent righti.  of  which,  when  they  enter  into  a  state  of  society,  they  cannot,  by  any 
compact,  deprive  or  divest  their  posterity :  namely,  the  enjoyment  of  life  and  liberty, 
with  the  means  of  acquiring  and  possessing  property,  and  pursuing  and  obtaining 
happiness  and  safety. 

2.  That  all  power  is  rested  in,  and  consequently  derived  from,  the  people;  that 
magistrates  aire  their  trustees  and  servants,  and  at  all  times  amenable  to  them. 

3.  That  government  is,  or  ought  to  be,  instituted  for  the  common  benefit,  protection 
and  secmrity  of  the  people,  nation,  or  community :  of  all  the  various  modes  and  forms 
of  government,  that  is  best,  which  is  capable  of  producing  the  greatest  degree  of  hap- 
piness and  safety,  and  is  most  effectually  secured  against  the  danger  of  mal-adminis- 
tration  ;  and  that,  when  any  government  shall  be  found  inadequate  or  contrarv  to  these 
purposes,  a  majority  of  the  community  hath  an  indubitable,  unalienable,  and  indefea- 
sible right,  to  reform,  alter  or  abohsh  it,  in  such  memner  as  shall  be  judged  most  con- 
ducive to  the  public  weal. 

4.  That  no  man,  or  set  of  men,  are  entitled  to  exclusive  or  separate  emoluments  or 
privileges  from  the  community,  but  in  consideration  of  pubhc  services,  which  not  be- 
ing descendible,  neither  ought  the  offices  of  Magistrate,  Legislator,  or  Judge,  to  be 
hereditary. 

5.  That  the  Legislative  and  Executive  powers  of  the  State  should  be  separate  and 
distinct  from  tlie  Judiciary;  and  that  the  members  of  the  two  first  mav  be  restrained 
from  oppression,  by  feeung  and  participating  the  burthens  of  the  people,  they  should, 
at  fix:ed  periods,  be  reduced  to  a  private  station,  return  into  that  body  from  which  they 
were  originallly  taken,  and  the  vacancies  be  supphed  by  frequent,  certain,  and  re^- 
lar  elections,  in  which  all,  or  any  part  of  the  former  members,  to  be  again  eligible^ or 
ineligible,  as  the  laws  shall  direct. 

6.  That  elections  of  members  to  serve  as  representatives  of  the  people,  in  Assem- 
bly, ouQfht  to  be  free:  and  that  all  men,  having  sufficient  evidence  of  permanent,  com- 
mon interest  with,  and  attachment  to.  the  community,  have  the  right  of  suffiage.  and 
cannot  be  taxed  or  deprived  of  their  property  for  public  uses,  without  their  own  con- 
sent, or  that  of  their  representatives  so  elected,  nor  botmd  by  any  law  to  which  they 
have  not,  in  hke  manner,  assented,  for  the  pubhc  good. 

7.  That  all  power  of  suspending  laws,  or  the  execution  of  laws,  bv  any  authority, 
without  consent  of  the  representatives  of  the  people,  is  injurious  to  their' riarhts,  and 
ought  not  to  be  exercised,  " 

fc.  That,  in  all  capital  or  criminal  prosecutions,  a  man  hath  a  riofht  to  demand  the 
cause  and  nature  of  his  accusation  ,  to  be  confronted  with  the  accusers  and  witnesses, 
to  call  for  evidence  in  his  favor,  and  to  a  speedy  trial,  by  an  impartial  jury  of  his  vi- 
cinage, without  whose  unanimous  consent  he  cannot  be  found  guilty ;  nor  can  he  Le 


896 


NEW  CONSTITUTION. 


compelled  to  give  evidence  against  himself;  that  no  man  be  deprived  of  his  liberty, 
except  by  the  law  of  the  land,  or  the  judgment  of  his  peers. 

9.  That  excessive  bail  ought  not  to  be  required,  nor  excessive  fines  imposed,  nor 
cruel  and  unusual  punishment  inflicted. 

10.  That  general  warrants,  whereby  an  officer  or  messenger,  may  be  commanded 
to  search  suspected  places,  without  evidence  of  a  fact  committed,  or  to  seize  any  per- 
son or  persons  not  named,  or  whose  offence  is  not  particularly  described  and  supported 
by  evidence,  are  grievous  and  oppressive,  and  ought  not  to  be  granted. 

11.  That,  in  controversies  respecting  property,  and  in  suits  between  man  and  man, 
the  ancient  trial  by  jury  is  preferable  to  any  other,  and  ought  to  be  held  sacred. 

12.  That  the  freedom  of  the  press  is  one  of  the  great  bulwarks  of  liberty,  and  can 
never  be  restrained  but  by  despotic  governments. 

13.  That  a  well-regulated  militia,"composed  of  the  body  of  the  people,  trained  to 
arms,  is  the  proper,  natural  and  safe  defence  of  a  free  State;  that  standing  armies,  in 
time  of  peace,  should  be  avoided,  as  dangerous  to  liberty;  and  that  in  all  cases,  the 
military  should  be  under  strict  subordination  to,  and  governed  by,  the  civil  power. 

14.  That  the  people  have  a  right  to  uniform  government;  and  therefore,  that  no 
government  separate  from,  or  independent  of,  the  government  of  Virginia^  ought  to 
be  erected  or  established  within  the  limits  thereof. 

15.  That  no  free  government,  or  the  blessing  of  liberty,  can  be  preserved  to  any 
people,  but  by  a  firm  adherence  to  justice,  moderation,  temperance,  firugality,  and  vir- 
tue, and  by  a  frequent  recurrence  to  fundamental  principles. 

16.  That  religion,  or  tlie  duty  which  we  owe  to  our  Creator,  and  the  manner  of 
discharging  it,  can  be  directed  only  by  reason  and  conviction,  not  by  force  or  violence; 
and,  therefore,  all  men  are  equally  entitled  to  the  free  exercise  of  religion,  accordino- 
to  the  dictates  of  conscience  ;  and  that  it  is  the  mutual  duty  of  all  to  practice  Christian 
forbearance,  love,  and  charity  towards  each  other. 


AH  AMEHHEB  CONSTITUTION 

OR 

FORM  OF  GOVERNMENT  FOR  VIRGINIA. 

(Adopted  by  the  Convention  January  14th,  1830.)' 

Whereas  the  Delegates  and  Representatives  of  the  good  people  of  Virginia,  in  Con^ 
vention  assembled,  on  the  twenty-ninth  day  of  June,  in  the  year  of  our  Lord  one  thou- 
sand seven  hundred  and  seventy-six  :  reciting  and  declaring,  that  whereas,  George 
the  third.  King  of  Great  Britain  and  Ireland,  and  Elector  of  Hanover,  before  that  time 
entrusted  with  the  exercise  of  the  kingly  office  in  the  Government  of  Virginia,  had 
endeavored  to  pervert  the  same  into  a  detestable  and  insupportable  tyranny,  by  put- 
ting his  negative  on  laws  the  most  wholesome  and  necessary  for  the  public  good  ;  by 
denyinof  his  Governors  permission  to  pass  laws  of  immediate  and  pressing  importance, 
unless  suspended  in  their  operation  for  his  assent,  and  when  so  suspended  neglecting 
to  attend  to  them  for  many  years  ;  by  refusing  to  pass  certain  other  laws,  unless  the 
persons  to  be  benefitted  by  them  would  relinquish  the  inestimable  right  of  represen- 
tation in  the  Legislature;  by  dissolving  legislative  assemblies  repeatedly  and  continu- 
ally, for  opposing  with  manly  firmness  his  invasions  of  the  rights  of  the  people  ;  when 
disso]ved,  by  refusing  to  call  others  for  a  long  space  of  time,  thereby  leaving  the  po- 
litical system  without  any  legislative  head  ;  by  endeavouring  to  prevent  the  popula- 
tion of  our  country,  and  for  that  purpose  obstructing  the  laws  for  the  naturalization  of 
foreigners  ;  by  keeping  among  us,  in  time  of  peace,  standing  armies  and  ships  of  war; 
by  affecting  to  render  the  military  independent  of  and  superior  to  the  civil  power;  by 
combining  with  others  to  subject  us  to  a  foreign  jurisdiction,  giving  his  assent  to  their 
pretended  acts  of  legislation,  for  quartering  large  bodies  of  armed  troops  among  us, 
for  cutting  off" our  trade  with  all  parts  of  the  world,  for  imposing  taxes  on  us  without 
our  consent,  for  depriving  us  of  fehe  benefits  of  the  trial  by  jury,  for  transporting  us 
beyond  seas  to  be  tried  for  pretended  offences,  for  suspending  our  own  Legislatures 
and  declaring  themselves  invested  with  power  to  legislate  for  us  in  all  cases  whatso- 
ever ;  by  plundering  our  seas,  ravaging  our  coasts,  burning  our  towns,  and  destroying 
the  lives  of  our  people  ;  by  inciting  insurrections  of  our  fellow-subjects  with  the  allure- 
ments of  forfeiture  and  confiscation  ;  by  prompting  our  negroes  to  rise  in  arms  among 
us,  those  very  negroes,  whom  by  an  inhuman  use  of  his  negative  he  had  refused  us 
permission  to  exclude  by  law ;  by  endeavouring  to  bring  on  the  inhabitants  of  our 
frontiers,  the  merciless  Indian  stivages,  whose  known  rule  of  vrarfare  is  an  undistin- 


NEW  CONSTITUTION. 


897 


guished  destruction  of  all  ages,  sexes  and  conditions  of  existence  ;  by  transporting 
hither  a  large  army  of  foreign  mercenaries,  to  complete  the  work  of  death,  desolation 
and  tyranny,  then  already  bes'un  with  circumstances  of  cruelty  and  perfidy  unworthy 
the  head  of  a  civilized  nation ;  by  answering  our  repeated  petitions  for  red'ress  with  a 
repetition  of  injuries  :  and  finaUy,by  abandoning;  the  helm  of  Government,  and  declaring 
us  out  of  his  allegiance  and  protection  ;  by  vrliich  several  acts  of  misrule,  the  Govern- 
ment of  this  country,  as  before  esercised'under  the  Crown  of  Great  Britain,  was  to- 
tally dissolved  :  did,  therefore,  having  maturely  considered  the  premises,  and  viewing 
with  great  concern  the  deplorable  condition,  to  which  this  once  happy  country  would 
be  reduced,  unless  some  regular  adequate  mode  of  civil  pohty  should  be  speedily 
adopted,  and  in  comphance  with  the  recommendation  of  the  General  Congress,  ordain 
and  declare  a  form  of  Government  of  Virginia  : 

And  whereas  the  General  Assembly  of  Virginia,  by  an  act  passed  on  the  tenth  day 
of  February,  in  the  year  of  our  Lord  one  thousand  eight  hundred  and  twenty-nine, 
entitled,  an  act  to  organize  a  Convention,  did  authorise  and  provide  for  the  election, 
by  the  people,  of  Delegates  and  Representatives,  to  meet  and  assemble,  in  General 
Convention,  at  the  Capitol  in  the  City  of  Richmond,  on  the  lirst  Monday  in  October 
in  the  year  last  aforesaid,  to  consider,  discuss  and  propose,  a  new  Constitution,  or  al- 
terations and  amendments  of  the  existing  Constitution  of  this  Conunon wealth,  to  be 
submitted  to  the  people  and  to  be  by  them  ratified  or  rejected  : 

We,  therefore,  the  Delegates  and  Ptepresentatives  of  the  good  people  of  Virginia, 
elected  and  in  Convention  assembled,  in  pursuance  of  the  said  act  of  Assembly,  do 
submit  and  propose  to  the  people,  the  following  Amended  Constitution  and  Form  of 
Government  for  this  Commonwealth,  that  is  to  say  : 

ARTICLE  I, 

The  Declaration  of  Plights  made  on  the  r2th  June,  1776,  by  the  representatives  of 
the  good  people  of  Virginia  assembled  in  full  and  free  Convention,  which  pertained 
to  them  and  their  posterity,  as  the  basis  and  foundation  of  Government;  requiring 
in  the  opinion  of  this  Convention  no  amendment,  shall  be  prefixed  to  this  Constitu- 
tion, and  have  the  same  relation  thereto  as  it  had  to  the  fonner  Constitution  of  this 
Commonwealth. 

ARTICLE  II. 

The  Legislative,  Executive  and  Judiciary  Departments,  shall  be  separate  and  dis» 
tinct,  so  that  neither  exercise  the  powers  properly  belonging  to  either  of  the  others ; 
nor  shall  any  person  exercise  the  powers  of  more  than  one  of  them  at  the  same  time, 
except  that  the  Justices  of  the  County  Courts  shall  be  eligible  to  either  House  of 
Assembly. 

ARTICLE  III. 

1,  The  Legislature  shall  be  formed  of  two  distinct  branches,  which  together  shall 
be  a  complete  Legislature,  and  shall  be  called  the  General  Assembly  of  Virginia. 

2.  One  of  these  shall  be  called  The  House  of  Delegates,  and  shall  consist  of  one 
hundred  and  thirty-four  members,  to  be  chosen,  annually,  for  and  by  the  several  cotin- 
ties,  cities,  towns  and  boroughs  of  the  Commonwealth:  whereof  thirty-one  Delegates 
shall  be  chosen  for  and  by  the  twenty-six  counties  lying  West  of  the  Alleghany 
mountains  ■.  twenty-five  for  and  by  the  fourteen  counties  hung  between  the  Alleghany 
and  Blue  Pv-idge  of  mountains ;  forty-two  for  and  by  the  twenty-nine  counties  lying 
East  of  the  Blue  Ridge  of  mountains  and  above  tide- water  ;  and  thirty  six  for  and 
by  the  counties,  cities,  towns  and  boroughs  lying  upon  tide-water,  that  is  to  say  :  Of 
the  twenty-six  counties  lying  West  of  the  Alleghany,  the  counties  of  Harrison, 
Montgomery.  Alononsalia,  Ohio  and  Washington  T  shall  eaci  elect  two  Delegates; 
and  the  counties  of  Brooke,  Cabell,  Grayson,  Greenbrier,  Giles,  Kanawha,  Lee, 
Lewis,  Logan,  3.Iason,  Monroe,  Mcholas,  Pocahontas,  Preston,  Randolph,  Russell, 
Scott,  Tazewell.  Tyler,  Wood  and  Wythe,  shall  each  elect  one  Delegate.  Of  the 
fourteen  counties  lying  between  the  Alleo-hany  and  Blue  Ridge,  tlie  counties  of  Fre- 
derick and  Shenandoah,  shall  each  elect  thr^e  Delegates  :  the  counties  of  Augusta, 
Berkeley,  Botetourt,  Hampshire,  Jefferson,  Rockingham  and  Rockbridge,  shall" each 
elect  two  Delegates-  and  the  counties  of  Alleghany,  Bath,  Hardy,  3Iorgan  and  Pen- 
dleton, shall  each  elect  one  Delegate.  Of  the  twenty-nine  counties  lying  East  of 
the  Blue  Ridge  and  above  tide-waler,  the  county  of  Loudoun,  shall  elect  three  Dele- 
gates ;  the  counties  of  Albemarle,  Bedford,  Brunswick,  Buckingham,  Campbell,  Cul- 
peper'.  Fauquier,  Franklin,  Halifax,  Mecklenburg  and  Pittsylvania,  shall  each  elect 
two  Delegates  :  and  the  counties  of  Amelia,  Amherst.  Charlotte,  Cumberland, ^Din- 
widdle, Fluvanna,  Goochland.  Henry.  Louisa.  Lunenburg,  Madison,  >'elson,  Notto- 
way, Orange,  Patrick,  Powhatan  and  Prince  Edward,  shall  each  elect  one  Delegate. 
A.nd  of  the  counties,  cities,  towns  and  boroughs  hing  on  tide-wateij  the  counties  of 


698 


NEAV  CONSTITUTION. 


Accomack  and  Norfolk,  shall  each  elect  two  Delegates;  the  counties  of  Carolme, 
Chesterfield,  Essex,  Fairfax,  Greenesville,  Gloucester,  Hanover,  Henrico,  Isle  of 
Wight,  King  &  Queen,  King  William,  King  George,  Nansemond,  Northumberland, 
Northampton,  Princess  Anne,  Prince  George,  Prince  William,  Southampton,  Spott- 
sylvania,  Stafford,  Sussex,  Surry  and  Westmoreland,  and  the  city  of  Pvichmond,  the 
borough  of  Norfolk,  and  the  town  of  Petersburg,  shall  each  elect  one  Delegate ;  the 
countfes  of  Lancaster  and  Pi.ichmond,  shall  together  elect  one  Delegate;  the  coun- 
ties of  Matthews  and  Middlesex,  shall  together  elect  one  Delegate  ;  the  counties  of 
Elizabeth  City  and  Warwick,  shall  together  elect  one  Delegate ;  the  counties  of 
James  City  and  York,  and  the  city  of  Williamsburg,  shall  together  elect  one  Dele- 
gate; and  the  counties  of  New  Kent  and  Charles  City,  shall  together  elect  one 
Deleg-ate. 

3.  The  other  Plouse  of  the  General  Assembly  shall  be  called  the  Senate,  and  shall 
consist  of  thirty-two  members,  of  whom  thirteen  shall  be  chosen  for  and  by  the 
counties  lying  West  of  the  Blue  Ridge  of  mountains,  and  nineteen  for  and  by  the 
counties,  cities,  towns  and  boroughs  lying  East  thereof ;  and  for  the  election  of  whom, 
the  counties,  cities,  towns  and  boroughs  shall  be  divided  into  thirty-two  districts,  as 
herein  after  provided.  Each  county  of  the  respective  districts,  at  the  time  of  the 
first  election  of  its  Delegate  or  Delegates  under  this  Constitution,  shall  vote  for  one 
Senator  ;  and  the  Sheriffs  or  other  olficers  holding  the  election  for  each  county,  city, 
town  or  borough,  within  five  days  at  farthest  after  the  last  county,  city,  town  or 
borough  election  in  the  district,  shall  meet  at  some  convenient  place,  and  from  the 
polls  so  taken  in  their  respective  counties,  cities,  towns  or  boroughs,  return  as  a  Sena- 
tor the  person  who  shall  have  the  greatest  number  of  votes  in  the  whole  district.  To 
keep  up  this  Assembly  by  rotation,  the  districts  shall  be  equally  divided  into  four 
classes,  and  numbered  by  lot.  At  the  end  of  one  year  after  the  first  general  election, 
the  eight  members  elected  by  the  first  division  shall  be  displaced,  and  the  vacancies 
thereby  occasioned,  supplied  from  such  class  or  division  by  new  election  in  the  man- 
ner aforesaid.  This  rotation  shall  be  applied  to  each  division  according  to  its  number, 
and  continued  in  due  order  annually.  And  for  the  election  of  Senators,  the  counties 
of  Brooke,  Ohio  and  Tyler,  shall  form  one  district:  the  counties  of  Monongalia, 
Preston  and  Randolph,  shall  form  anotlier  district:  the  counties  of  Harrison,  Lewis 
and  Wood,  shall  form  another  district:  the  counties  of  Kanawha,  Mason,  Cabell, 
Logan  and  Nicholas,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Greenbrier,  Monroe, 
Giles  and  Montgomery,  shall  ibrm  another  district :  the  counties  of  Tazewell,  Wythe 
and  Grayson,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Washington,  Russell,  Scott 
and  Lee,  shall  form  another  district:  the  counties  of  Berkeley,  Morgan  and  Hamp- 
shire, shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Frederick  and  Jefferson  shall  form 
another  district :  the  counties  of  Shenandoah  and  Hardy  shall  form  another  district : 
the  counties  of  Rockingham  and  Pendleton  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties 
of  Augusta  and  PLOckbridge  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Alleghany, 
Bath,  Pocahontas  and  Botetourt,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Loudoun 
and  Fairfax  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Fauquier  and  Prince  William 
shall  form  another  district:  the  counties  of  Stafford,  King  George,  Westmoreland, 
Richmond,  Lancaster  and  Northumberland,  shall  form  another  district:  the  counties 
of  Culpeper,  Madison  and  Orange,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Albe- 
marle, Nelson  and  Amherst,  shall  form  another  district:  the  counties  of  Fluvanna, 
Goochland,  Louisa  and  Hanover,  shall  form  another  district:  the  counties  of  Spott- 
sylvania,  Caroline  and  Essex,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  King  & 
Queen,  King  WiUiam,  Gloucester,  Matthev/s  and  Middlesex,  shall  form  another  dis- 
trict:  the  counties  of  Accomack,  Northampton,  Elizabeth  City,  York  and  Warwick, 
and  the  city  of  WilUamsburg,  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Charles 
City,  James  City,  New  Kent  and  Henrico,  and  the  city  of  Richmond,  shall  form 
another  district :  the  counties  of  Bedford  and  Franklin,  shall  form  another  district : 
the  counties  of  Buckingham,  Campbell  and  Cumberland,  shall  form  another  district: 
the  counties  of  Patrick,  Henry  and  Pittsylvania,  shall  form  another  district :  the  coun- 
ties of  Halifax  and  Mecklenburg  shall  form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Cljar- 
lotte,  Lunenburg,  Nottoway  and  Prince  Edward,  shall  form  another  district:  the 
counties  of  Amelia,  Powhatan  and  Chesterfield,  and  the  town  of  Petersburg,  shall 
form  another  district:  the  counties  of  Brunswick,  Dinwiddle  and  Greenesville,  shall 
form  another  district :  the  counties  of  Isle  of  Wight,  Prince  George,  Southampton, 
Surry  and  Sussex,  shall  form  another  district:  and  the  counties  of  Norfolk,  Nanse- 
mond and  Princess  Anne,  and  the  borough  of  Norfolk,  shall  form  another  district. 

4.  It  shall  be  the  duty  of  the  Legislature,  to  re-apportion,  once  in  ten  years,  to 
wit :  in  the  year  1841,  and  every  ten  years  thereafter,  the  representation  of  the  coun- 
ties, cities,  towns  and  boroughs,  of  this  Commonwealth,  in  both  of  the  Legislative 
bodies:  Provided,  kozvever,  That  the  number  of  Delegates  from  the  aforesaid  great 
districts,  and  the  number  of  Senators  from  the  aforesaid  two  great  divisions,  respec- 
tively, shall  neither  be  increased  nor  diminished  by  such  re-apportionment.  And 


XEV.-  COXSTITUTIOX. 


899 


when  a  new  coantj  sliall  hereafter  be  created,  or  any  city,  town  or  borough,  not  now- 
entitled  to  separate  representation  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  shall  have  so  increased 
in  population  as  to  be  entitled,  in  the  opinion  of  the  General  Assembly;  to  such  re- 
presentation, it  shall  be  the  duty  of  the  General  Assembly  to  make  provision  by  law 
for  securing  to  the  people  of  such  new  county,  or  such  city,  town  or  borough,  an. 
adequate  representation.  And  if  the  object  cannot  otherwise  be  eSected,  it  shall  be 
competent  to  the  General  Assembly  to  re-apportion  the  whole  representation  of  the 
great  district  containing  such  new  county,  or  such  city,  town  or  borough,  within  its 
limits ;  which  re-apportionment  shall  continue  in  force  till  the  nest  regular  decennial 
re-apportionment. 

5.  The  General  Assembly,  after  the  year  1S41,  and  at  intervals  thereafter  of  not 
less  than  ten  years,  shall  hare  authority,  two-thirds  of  each  House  concurring,  to 
make  re-apportionment5  of  Delegates  and  Senators,  throughout  the  Commonwealth, 
so  that  the  number  of  Delegates  shall  not  at  anv  time  exceed  150.  nor  of  Senators  So, 

6.  The  whole  number  of  members  to  which  the  State  may  at  auT  time  be  entitled 
in  the  House  of  E-epresentatives  of  the  United  States,  shall  be  apportioned  as  nearly 
as  may  be,  amongst  -  —  .  counties,  cities,  boroughs  and  towns  of  the  State,  ac- 
cording to  their  re-  .mbers,  which  shall  be  determined  by  adding  to  the 
whole  number  of  frcr  including  those  bound  to  serrice  for  a  term  of  years 
and  excluding  indians  not  taxed,  three-fifths  of  all  other  persons. 

7.  Any  person  raay  be  elected  a  Senator  who  shall  have  attained  to  the  age  of  thirty 
years,  and  shall  be  actually  a  resident  and  fireeholder  within  the  district,  qualified 
by  virtue  of  his  freehold,  to  vote  for  members  of  the  General  Assembly  according  to 
this  Constitution.  And  any  person  may  be  elected  a  member  of  the  House  of  Dele- 
gates, who  shall  have  attained  the  age  of  twenty-five  years,  and  shall  be  actually  a 
resident  and  freeholder  within  the  country .  city,  town,  borough  or  election  district, 
qualified  by  virtue  of  his  freehold,  to  vote  for  members  of  the  General  Assembly  ac- 
cording to  this  Constitution :  Provided .  That  all  persons  holding  lucrative  o^ces  and 
ministers  of  the  Gospel  and  priests  of  every  denomination,  shall  be  incapable  of  be- 
ing elected  members  of  either  House  of  Assembly. 

6.  The  members  of  the  Assembly  shall  receive  for  their  services  a  compensation  to 
be  ascertained  by  law,  and  paid  out  of  the  public  Treasury  :  but  no  law  increasing 
the  compensation  of  the  members  shall  take  effect  until  the  end  of  the  next  annu^ 
session  after  such  law  shall  have  been  enacted.  And  no  Senator  or  Delegate  shall, 
during  the  term  for  which  he  shall  have  been  elected,  be  appointed  to  any  civil  office 
of  profit  under  the  Commonwealth,  which  shall  have  been  created,  or  the  emoluments 
of  which  shall  have  been  increased,  during  such  term,  except  such  o:£ces  as  may  be 
filled  by  elections  by  the  people. 

9.  The  General  Assembly  sliall  meet  once  or  oflener  every  year.  Neither  House, 
during  the  session  of  the  Legislature,  shall  without  the  consent  of  the  other,  adjourn 
for  more  than  three  days,  nor  to  any  other  place  than  that  in  which  the  two  Houses 
shall  be  sitting.  A  majority  of  each  House  shall  constitute  a  quorum  to  do  business  ; 
but  a  smaller  number  may  adjourn  from  day  to  day,  and  shall  be  authorised  to  compel 
the  attendance  of  absent  members,  in  such  manner  and  under  such  penalties  as  each 
House  may  provide.  And  each  House  shall  choose  its  own  Speaker,  appoint  its  own 
officers,  settle  its  own  rules  of  proceeding,  and  direct  writs  of  election  for  supplying 
intermediate  vacancies.  But  if  vacancies  shall  occur  by  death  or  resignation,  during 
the  recess  of  the  General  Assembly,  such  writs  may  be  issued  by  the  Governor,  un- 
der such  reofulations  as  may  be  prescribed  by  law.  Each  House  shall  judge  of  the 
election,  qualification  and  returns  of  its  members:  may  punish  its  members  for  dis- 
order! v  behaviour,  and  with  the  concurrence  of  two- thirds,  expel  a  member,  but  not 
a  second  time  for  the  same  offence. 

10.  All  laws  shall  originate  in  the  House  of  Delegates,  to  be  approved  or  rejected 
bv  the  Senate,  or  to  be  amended  with  the  consent  of  the  House  of  Delegates. 

11.  The  privilege  of  the  Writ  ot  Habeas  Corpus  shall  not  in  any  case  be  suspended. 
The  Legislature  shall  not  pass  any  bill  of  attainder  ;.  or  any  ex  post  facto  law ;  or  any 
law  imp^incr  the  obligation  of  contracts  •.  or  any  law,  whereby  private  property  shall 
be  taken  tor  public  uses,  without  just  compensation or  any  law  abridging  the  fi-ee- 
dom  of  Speech,  or  of  the  tress.  No  man  shall  be  compelled  to  firequent  or  support 
anv  religious  worship,  place  or  ministry  whatsoever  ;  nor  shall  any  man  be  enforced, 
restrained,  molested  or  burthened  in  his  body  or  goods,  or  otherwise  suffer,  on  ac- 
count of  his  religious  opinions  or  belief;  but  all  men  shall  be  tree  to  profess,  and  by 
argument  to  maintain,  their  opinions  in  matters  of  rehgion,  and  the  same  shall  in  no 
wise  affect,  diminish  or  enlarge  their  civU  capacities.  And  the  Legislature  shall  not 
prescribe  any  religious  test  whatever ;  nor  confer  any  peculiar  privileges  or  advanta- 
ges on  any  one  sect  or  denomination  ;  nor  pass  any  law  requiring  or  authorising  any 
reliarious  society,  or  the  people  of  any  district  widnn  this  Commonwealth,  to  levy  on 
themselves  or  others,  anv  tax  for  the  erection  or  repair  of  any  house  for  pubhc  wor- 
ship, or  for  the  support  of  any  church  or  ministry ;  but  it  shall  be  left  free  to  every 


900 


NEW  CONSTITUTION. 


person  to  select  his  religious  instructor,  and  to  make  for  his  support  such  private  con- 
tract as  he  shall  please. 

12.  The  Legislature  may  provide  by  law  that  no  person  shall  be  capable  of  holding 
or  being  elected  to  any  post  of  profit,  trust  or  emolument,  civil  or  military,  Legislative, 
Executive  or  Judicial,  under  the  Government  of  this  Commonwealth,  v;ho  shall  here- 
after fight  a  duel,  or  send  or  accept  a  challenge  to  fight  a  duel,  the  probable  issue  of 
which  may  be  the  death  of  the  challenger  or  challenged,  or  who  shall  be  a  second  to 
either  party,  or  shall  in  any  manner  aid  or  assist  in  such  duel,  or  shall  be  knowingly 
the  bearer  of  such  challenge  or  acceptance  ;  but  no  person  shall  be  so  disqualified  by 
reason  of  his  having  heretofore  fought  such  duel,  or  sent  or  accepted  such  cliallenge, 
or  been  second  in  such  duel,  or  bearer  of  such  challenge  or  acceptance. 

13.  The  Governor,  the  Judges  of  the  Court  of  Appeals  and  Superior  Courts,  and 
all  others  offending  against  the  State,  either  by  mal-administration,  corruption,  ne- 
glect of  duty,  or  any  other  high  crime  or  misdemeanor,  shall  be  impeachable  by  the 
House  of  Delegates ;  such  impeachment  to  be  prosecuted  before  the  Senate,  which 
shall  have  the  sole  power  to  try  all  impeachments.  When  sitting  for  that  purpose, 
the  Senate  shall  be  on  oath  or  aflirmation  :  and  no  person  shall  be  convicted  without 
the  concurrence  of  two-thirds  of  the  members  present.  Judgment,  in  cases  of  im- 
peachment, shall  not  extend  further  than  to  removal  from  ofiice,  and  disqualification 
to  hold  and  enjoy  any  office  of  honour,  trust  or  profit,  under  the  Commonwealth ;  but 
the  party  convicted  shall  nevertheless  be  liable  and  subject  to  indictment,  trial,  judg- 
ment and  punishment,  according  to  law. 

14.  Every  white  male  citizen  of  the  Commonwealth,  resident  therein,  aged  twenty- 
one  years  and  upwards,  being  qualified  to  exercise  the  Right  of  Suffrage  according  to 
the  former  Constitution  and  laws;  and  every  such  citizen,  being  possessed,  or  whose 
tenant  for  years,  at  will  or  at  sufferance,  is  possessed,  of  an  estate  of  freehold  in  land 
of  the  value  of  twenty-five  dollars,  and  so  assessed  to  be  if  any  assessment  thereof  be 
required  by  law  ;  and  every  such  citizen,  being  possessed,  as  tenant  in  common,  joint 
tenant  or  parcener,  of  an  interest  in  or  share  of  land,  and  having  an  estate  of  freehold 
therein,  such  interest  or  share  being  of  the  value  of  twenty-five  dollars,  and  so  assessed 
to  be  if  any  assessment  thereof  be  required  by  law ;  and  every  such  citizen  being  en- 
titled to  a  reversion  or  vested  remainder  in  fee,  expectant  on  an  estate  for  life  or  lives, 
in  land  of  the  value  of  fifty  dollars,  and  so  assessed  to  be  if  any  assessment  thereof  be 
required  by  law  ;  (each  and  every  such  citizen,  unless  his  title  shall  have  come  to  him 
by  descent,  devise,  marriage  or  marriage-settlement,  having  been  so  possessed  or  en- 
titled for  six  months)  ;  and  every  such  citizen,  who  shall  own  and  be  himself  in  ac- 
tual occupation  of  a  leasehold  estate,  with  the  evidence  of  title  recorded  two  months 
before  he  shall  offer  to  vote,  of  a  term  originally  not  less  than  five  years,  of  the  annual 
value  or  rent  of  twenty  dollars ;  and  every  such  citizen,  who  for  twelve  months  next 
preceding  has  been  a  house-keeper  and  head  of  a  family  within  the  county,  city,  town, 
borough  or  election  district  where  he  may  offer  to  vote,  and  shall  have  been  assessed 
with  a  part  of  the  revenue  of  the  Commonwealth  within  the  preceding  year,  and  ac- 
tually paid  the  same — and  no  other  persons — shall  be  qualified  to  vote  for  members  of 
the  General  Assembly  in  the  county,  city,  town  or  borough,  respectively,  wherein 
such  land  shall  lie,  or  such  house-keeper  and  head  of  a  family  shall  live.  And  in 
case  of  two  or  more  tenants  in  common,  joint  tenants  or  parceners,  in  possession,  re- 
version or  remainder,  having  interest  in  land,  the  value  whereof  shall  be  insufficient 
to  entitle  them  all  to  vote,  they  shall  together  have  as  many  votes  as  the  value  of  the 
land  shall  entitle  them  to :  and  the  Legislature  shall  by  law  provide  the  mode  in 
which  their  vote  or  votes  shall  in  such  case  be  given  :  Provided,  nevertheless,  That  the 
Right  of  Suffi-age  shall  not  be  exercised  by  any  person  of  unsound  mind,  or  who  shall 
be  a  pauper,  or  a  non-commissioned  officer,  soldier,  seaman  or  marine,  in  the  service 
of  the  United  States,  or  by  any  person  convicted  of  any  infamous  offence. 

15.  In  all  elections  in  this  Commonwealth,  to  any  office  or  place  of  trust,  honour  or 
profit,  the  votes  shall  be  given  openly,  or  viva  voce,  and  not  by  ballot. 

ARTICLE  IV. 

1.  The  Chief  Executive  power  of  this  Commonwealth,  shall  be  vested  in  a  Gover- 
nor, to  be  elected  by  the  joint  vote  of  the  two  Houses  of  the  General  Assembly.  He 
shall  hold  his  office,  during  the  term  of  three  years,  to  commence  on  the  first  day  of 
January  next  succeeding  his  election,  or  on  such  other  day,  as  may  from  time  to  time 
be  prescribed  by  law ;  and  he  shall  be  ineligible  to  that  office,  for  three  years  next  af- 
ter his  term  of  service  shall  have  expired. 

2.  No  person  shall  be  eligible  to  the  office  of  Governor,  unless  he  shall  have  at- 
tained the  age  of  thirty  years,  shall  be  a  native  citizen  of  the  United  States,  or  shall 
have  been  a  citizen  thereof  at  the  adoption  of  the  Federal  Constitution,  and  shall  have 
been  a  citizen  of  this  Commonwealth  for  five  years  next  preceding  his  election. 


NEW  CONSTITUTION. 


901 


3.  The  Governor  shall  receive  for  his  services  a  compensation  to  be  fixed  by  lavr, 
whicli  shall  be  neither  increased  nor  diminished,  during-  his  continuance  in  office. 

4.  He  shall  take  care  that  the  laws  be  faithfuUy  executed  ;  shall  communicate  to 
the  Leg-isiature.  at  every  session,  the  condition  of  the  Commonwealth,  and  recom- 
mend to  their  consideration  such  measures  as  he  may  deem  expedient.  He  shall  be 
Commander-iii-cliief  of  the  land  and  naval  forces  of  the  State.  He  shall  have  power 
to  embody  the  rnilitia.  when  in  his  opinion,  the  public  safety  shall  require  it;  to  con- 
vene the  Legislature,  on  applicati-n  of  a  majority  of  tiie  members  of  the  House  of 
Delegates,  or  wiien.  in  liis  opinion,  the  interest  of  the  Commonwealth  mav  require  it ; 
to  g-rant  reprieves  and  pardons,  except  wliere  the  prosecution  shall  have  been  carried 
on  by  the  House  of  Delegates,  or  the  law  shall  otherwise  particularly  direct  :  to  con- 
duct, eitiier  in  person,  c^r  i:i  such  manner  as  shall  be  prescribed  bylaw,  all  intercourse 
with  other  and  foreign  States:  and  during  the  recess  of  the  Legislature,  to  fill,  pro 
tempore,  all  vacancies  in  those  otfices,  which  it  may  be  the  duty  of  the  Legislature  to 
fill  permanently  :  Pravided.  That  ills  appointments  to  such  vacancies  shall  be  by  com- 
missions to  expire  at  the  end  of  the  next  succeeding  session  of  the  General  Assembly. 

•5.  There  shall  be  a  Council  of  State,  to  consist  of  three  members,  anv  one  or  more 
of  whom  may  act.  They  shall  be  elected  by  joint  vote  of  both  Houses  of  the  Gene- 
ral Assembly,  and  remain  in  oifice  three  years.  But  of  those  first  elected,  one.  to  be 
designated  by  lot,  shall  remain  in  ofiice  for  one  year  only,  and  one  other  to  be  desig- 
nated in  like  manner,  shall  remain  in  olnce  for  two  years  only.  Vacaircies  occurring 
by  expiration  of  the  term  of  service,  or  otherwise,  shall  be  supplied  by  elections  made 
in  like  manner.  The  Governor  shall,  before  he  exercises  any  discretionary  power 
conferred  on  him  by  the  Constitution  and  laws,  require  the  advice  of  the  Council  of 
State,  which  advice  shall  be  registered  in  books  kept  for  that  purpose,  signed  by  the 
members  present  and  consenting  thereto,  and  laid  before  the  General  Assembly  when 
called  for  by  them.  Tiie  Council  shall  appoint  their  own  Clerk,  who  shall  take  an 
oath  to  keep  secret  such  matters  as  he  shall  be  ordered  by  the  Board  to  conceal.  The 
Senior  Councillor  shall  be  Lieutenant-Governoi .  and  in  case  of  the  death,  resignation, 
inability  or  absence  of  the  Governor  from  the  seat  of  Government,  shall  act  as  Go- 
vernor. 

6.  The  manner  of  appointing  militia  officers  shall  be  provided  for  by  law;  but  no 
officer  below  the  rank  of  a  Brigadier  General,  shall  be  appointed  by  the  General  As- 
sembly. 

7.  Commissions  and  grants  shall  run  in  the  name  of  the  Commonwealth  of  Virginia, 
and  bear  teste  by  the  Governor,  with  the  seal  of  the  Commonwealth  annexed. 

ARTICLE  V. 

1.  The  Judicial  power  sha.ll  be  vested  in  a  Supreme  Court  of  Appeals,  in  such  Su- 
perior Courts  as  the  Legislature  may  from  time  to  time  ordain  and  estabhsh.  and  the 
Judges  thereof,  in  the  County  Courts,  and  in  Justices  of  the  Peace.  The  Legisla- 
ture may  also  ve^t  such  jurisdiction  as  shall  be  deemed  necessary  in  Corporation 
Courts,  and  in  tlie  Magistrates  who  may  belong  to  the  corporate  body.  The  jurisdic- 
tion of  these  tribunals,  and  of  the  Judges  thereof,  shall  be  regulated  by  law.  The 
Judges  of  the  Supreme  Court  of  Appeals  and  of  the  Superior  Courts,  shall  hold  their 
offices  durinsr  good  behaviour,  or  until  removed  in  the  manner  prescribed  m  this  Con- 
stitution ;  and  shall,  at  the  same  time,  hold  no  other  office,  appointment,  or  public 
trust:  and  the  acceptance  thereof  by  either  of  them  shall  vacate  his  judicial  office. 

2.  Sj  law  abolishing  any  court  shall  be  construed  to  deprive  a  Judge  thereof  of 
his  otfice.  unless  two-thirds  of  the  members  of  each  House  present  concur  in  the 
passing  thereof:  but  the  Legislature  may  assign  other  Judicial  duties  to  the  Judges  of 
courts  abolished  by  any  law  enacted  by  less  than  two-thirds  of  the  members  of  each 
House  present. 

3.  The  present  Judges  of  the  Supreme  Court  of  Appeals,  of  the  General  Court, 
and  of  tlie  Superior  Courts  of  Chancery,  shall  remain  in  office  until  the  termination 
of  the  session  of  the  first  Legislature  elected  under  this  Constitution,  and  no  longer. 

4.  The  Judges  of  the  Supreme  Court  of  Appeals  and  of  the  Superior  Courts  shall 
be  elected  by  the  joint  vote  of  both  Houses  of  the  General  Assembly. 

5.  The  Jiidges  of  the  Supreme  Court  of  Appeals  and  of  the  Superior  Courts  shall 
receive  fixed  and  adequate  salaries,  which  shall  not  be  diminished  during  their  con- 
tinuance in  office. 

6.  Judges  mav  be  removed  from  office  by  a  concurrent  vote  of  both  Houses  of  the 
General  Assembly  3  but  two-tlrirds  of  the  members  present  must  concur  in  such  vote, 
and  the  cause  of  removal  shall  be  entered  on  the  Journals  of  each.  The  Judge 
against  whom  the  Legislature  may  be  about  to  proceed,  shall  receive  notice  thereof, 
accompanied  with  a  copv  of  the  causes  alleged  for  his  removal,  at  least  twentv  davs 
before  the  day  on  which  either  House  of  the  General  Assembly  shall  act  thereupon. 


902 


NEW  CONSTITUTION. 


7.  On  the  creation  of  any  new  county,  Justices  of  the  Peace  shall  be  appointed,  in 
the  first  instance,  in  such  manner  as  may  be  prescribed  by  law.  When  vacancies 
shall  occur  in  any  county,  or  it  shall,  for  any  cause,  be  deemed  necessary  to  increase 
the  number,  appointments  shall  be  made  by  the  Governor,  on  the  recommendation  of 
the  respective  County  Courts. 

8.  The  Attorney- General  shall  be  appointed  by  joint  vote  of  the  two  Houses  of 
the  General  Assembly,  and  commissioned  by  the  Governor,  and  shall  hold  his  office, 
during  the  pleasure  of  the  General  Assembly.  The  Clerks  of  the  several  courts, 
when  vacancies  shall  occur,  shall  be  appointed  by  their  respective  courts,  and  the 
tenure  of  office,  as  well  of  those  now  in  office  as  of  those  who  may  be  hereafter  ap- 
pointed, shall  be  prescribed  by  law.  The  Sheriffs  and  Coroners  shall  be  nominated 
by  the  respective  County  Courts,  and  when  approved  by  the  Governor,  shall  be  com- 
missioned by  him.  The  Justices  shall  appoint  Constables.  And  all  fees  of  the  afore- 
said officers,  shall  be  regulated  by  law. 

9.  Writs  shall  run  in  the  name  of  the  Commonwealth  of  Virg-inia,  and  bear  teste 
by  the  Clerks  of  the  several  courts.  Indictments  shail  conclude,  Against  the  peace 
and  dignity  of  the  Commonwealth. 

ARTICLE  VI. 

A  Treasurer  shall  be  appointed  annually  by  joint  vote  of  both  Houses. 

ARTICLE  VII. 

The  Executive  Department  of  the  Government  shall  remain  as  at  present  organi- 
zed, and  the  Governor  and  Privy  Councillors  shall  continue  in  office,  until  a  Gover- 
nor elected,  under  this  Constitution,  shall  come  into  office ;  and  all  other  persons  in 
office  when  this  Constitution  shall  be  adopted,  except  as  is  herein  otherwise  expressly 
directed,  shall  continue  in  office,  till  successors  shall  be  appointed,  or  the  law  shall 
otherwise  provide  ;  and  all  the  Courts  of  Justice  now  existing  shall  continue  with 
their  present  jurisdiction,  until  and  except  so  far  as,  the  Judicial  system  may  or  shall 
be  hereafter  otherwise  organized  by  the  Legislature. 

Done  in  Convention  in  the  City  of  Richmond,  on  the  fifteenth  day  of  January,  in 
the  year  of  our  Lord  one  thousand  eight  hundred  and  thirty,  and  in  the  fifty- 
fourth  year  of  the  Independence  of  the  United  States  of  America. 

PHILIP  P.  BARBOUR, 

President  of  the  Convention. 

D.  Briggs, 

Secretarij  of  the  Convention. 


SCHEDULE. 

Ordered,  that  the  roll  containing  the  draught  of  the  Amended  Constitution  adopted 
by  this  Convention,  and  by  it  submitted  to  the  people  of  this  Commonwealth,  for  their 
ratification  or  rejection,  be  enclosed  by  the  Secretary  in  a  case  proper  for  its  preserva- 
tion, and  deposited  among  the  archives  of  tlie  Council  of  State. 

Ordered,  that  the  Secretary  do  cause  the  Journal  of  the  proceedings  of  this  Con- 
vention, to  be  fairly  entered  in  a  well  bound  book,  and  after  the  same  shall  have  been 
signed  by  the  President,  and  attested  by  the  Secretary,  that  he  deposit  the  same,  to- 
gether with  all  the  original  documents  in  the  possession  of  the  Convention,  and  con- 
nected with  its  proceedings,  among  the  archives  of  the  Council  of  State  ;  and  further, 
that  he  cause  ten  printed  copies  of  the  said  Journal  to  be  well  bound,  and  deposited 
in  the  Public  Libi-ary. 

Ordered,  that  the  President  of  the  Convention,  do  certify  a  true  copy  of  the  Amended 
Constitution  to  the  General  Assembly  now  in  session  ;  and  that  the  General  Assem- 
bly be  and  they  are  hereby  requested  to  make  any  additional  provisions  by  law,  which 
may  be  necessary  and  proper  for  submitting  the  same  to  the  voters  thereby  qualified 
to  vote  for  members  of  the  General  Assembly  at  the  next  April  elections,  and  for  or- 
ganizing the  Government  under  the  A  mended  Constitution,  it  case  it  shall  be  approved 
and  ratified  by  such  voters. 


ENTIRE  OFFICIAIw  POLE 

ox  THE 

NEW  CONSTITUTION  OF  VIRGINIA. 


Accomack, 

Albemarle, 

Alleghany, 

Amelia, 

Amherst, 

Augusta, 

Bath. 

Bedford, 

Berkele}', 

Botetourt, 

Brooke. 

Brunswick, 

Buckincrham. 

Cabell," 

Campbell, 

Caroline, 

Charles  City, 

Charlotte, 

Chesterfield, 

Culpeper, 

Cumberland, 

Dinwiddle, 

Elizabeth  City, 

Essex, 

Fairfax, 

Fauquier, 

Fluvanna, 

Franklin, 

Frederick, 

Giles, 

Gloucester, 

Goochland, 

Grayson, 

Greenbrier. 

Greenesville, 

Halifax, 

Hampshire, 

Hanover, 

Hardy, 

Harrison, 

Henrico, 

Henry, 

Isle  of  Wight, 

James  City, 

Jefierson, 

Kanawha, 

King  and  Queen, 

King  George, 

King  William, 

Lancaster, 

Lee, 

Lewis, 

Logan, 

Loudoun, 

Louisa, 

Lunenburg, 

Madison, 

Carried  up. 


Ratifying.  Rejecting 


266 

70 

626 

7 

80 

72 

250 

3 

349 

265 

MlO 

no 
yo 

14/ 

C09 

OO 

yo 

XDi 

DOU 

1  O 

r>A 
UU 

i 

565 

40 

5 

oo4 

44t) 

OO 

331 

OA 

no 

OO 
4.4, 

33o 

1 0 

A  iZI 

lo 

y21 

OA 

4Xi 

ono 

ID 

64l 

01 

110 

DO 

248 

15 

184 

lo 

468 

OO 

243 

17 

593 

138 

451 

438 

21 

556 

252 

62 

198 

3 

70 

649 

34 

464 

112 

5 

636 

15 

241 

211 

359 

7 

63 

120 

8 

1,112 

280 

46 

208 

71 

246 

8 

71 

33 

243 

53 

42 

266 

262 

22 

102 

7 

187 

12 

73 

83 

330 

99 

10 

546 

2 

255 

505 

128 

543 

32 

218 

4 

256 

00 

15,340 

7,316 

Brought  up, 

Ratifying. 

Rejecting. 

7,316 

15,340 

]SIason, 

31 

369 

jSIatthews, 

123 

35 

Mecklenburg, 

488 

24 

Middlesex, 

123 

14 

Monongalia, 

305 

460 

Monroe, 

19 

451 

^Montgomery, 

194 

670 

Morgan, 

29 

156 

Nanseraond, 

162 

72 

Nelson, 

332 

5 

New  Kent, 

156 

34 

Nicholas, 

28 

325 

Norfolk  County, 

230 

23 

Northampton, 

48 

32 

Northumberland , 

286 

7 

Nottoway, 

214 

5 

Ohio, 

3 

643 

Orange, 

417 

18 

Patrick, 

274 

246 

Pendleton, 

58 

219 

Pittsylvania, 

955 

40 

Pocahontas, 

9 

228 

Powhatan, 

238 

10 

Preston, 

121 

a57 

Prince  Edward, 

3.28 

3 

Princess  Anne, 

285 

88 

Prince  George, 

142 

4 

Prince  Wilham, 

183 

52 

Pvandolph. 

4 

565 

Richmond  County, 

126 

51 

Rockbridge, 

416 

125 

Rockingham, 

457 

49 

Russell, 

86 

240 

Scott, 

155 

297 

Shenandoah, 

671 

64 

Southampton, 

347 

8 

Spotls3-lvania, 

452 

16 

Staiiord, 

204 

58 

Surry, 

108 

36 

Sussex, 

259 

2 

Tazewell, 

35 

423 

Tyler, 

5 

299 

Warwick, 

2 

63 

Washington, 

556 

175 

Westmoreland, 

Wood, 

Wythe, 

106 

33 

28 

410 

41 

625 

York, 

76 

43 

Norfolk  Borough, 

198 

38 

Petersburg, 

272 

5 

Richmond  City, 

301 

19 

Williamsburg, 

29 

13 

26,055  15,563 
15.563 


Majority, 


10,492 


APPENDIX 


(Xo.  1.) 

Substance  of  Governor  Giles's  Address  to  the  Executive  Commit- 
tee, on  Saturday,  October  the  llth,  1529.  {Made  at  its  request.) 

Referred  to  in  [jage  257  of  these  Debates. 

Mr.  Giles  introduced  the  address,  by  begging  the  Committee  to  be  assured,  that 
he  felt  a  high  sense  of  the  honor  conferred  upon  Kim.  by  a  call  to  present  to  the  Com- 
mittee his  views  of  the  interesting  subjects  then  under  its  consideration ;.  and  that 
while  it  would  give  him  sincere  pleasure  to  comply  with  the  call,  he  had  not  the 
vanity  to  presume,  that  any  thing  he  could  say  would  influence  the  opinion  or  vote 
Q^any  member  of  the  Committee.  But,  he  could  not  avoid  expressing  the  high  satis- 
motion  he  felt  at  the  spirit  of  liberality,  harmony  and  concession,  which  had  marked 
the  proceedings  of  that  Committee  from  their  commencement  to  the  present  time, 
rsor  could  he  help  expressing  at  the  same  time,  the  deep  concern  and  regret  he.  felt 
at  the  equality  of  votes,  or  near  approach  to  it.  which  had  been  given  upon  several 
of  the  most  interesting  subjects,  as  well  by  this  as  by  the  other  Commiitees  of  the 
Convention.  He  could  not,  however,  entirely  suppress  the  hope,  that  by  persevering 
in  the  same  friendly  and  liberal  comparison  of  opinions,  which  had  heretofore  been 
manifested  in  the  Committee,  a  nearer  approach  to  unanimity  might  hereafter  be  had, 
or  at  least,  greater  majorities  might  be  found  for  adopting  some  one  course  of  mea- 
sures. 3Ir.  G.  then  observed,  that  in  executing  the  task  he  had  undertaken,  he  pro- 
posed to  yresent  to  the  Committee  nothing  more  than  an  outline  compendious  view 
of  the  whole  subjects  before  them,  as  weil  as  of  the  particular  one  more  immediately 
under  consideration.  Relying  upon  the  intelligence  of  every  member  of  the  Com- 
mittee, he  proposed  to  adventure  but  little  into  minute  demonstration  or  argument, 
and  hoped  that  each  member  would  fill  up  for  himself,  from  his  own  reflections,  the 
vacuums  which  must  necessarily  attend  a  mere  outline  view  of  this,  as  well  as  every 
other  subject. 

Mr.  G.  then  said,  he  was  himself  deeply  impressed,  and  he  was  confident  every 
other  member  of  the  Committee  was  equally  so,  with  the  great  importance  of  the 
objects  for  which  they  were  called  together,  and  of  the  powers  with  which  they  were 
invested  to  effectuate  these  objects.  The  one  was  nothing  less  than  the  formation 
of  a  social  compact  or  written  Constitution  for  the  whole  people  of  Virginia — the 
other,  nothing  less  than  the  whole  sovereign  rights  and  powers  of  the  same  people. 
These  involve  trusts  and  duties  of  high  and  paramount  impression,  and  demand  the 
best  efforts  of  our  best  deliberations  to  carry  them  into  effect  in  such  a  manner  as  to 
answer  the  just  expectations  of  our  constituents  and  of  the  world.  The  object  of 
every  social  compact  or  written  Constitution,  is  to  establish  a  practical  Government, 
and  to  prescribe  rules  for  its  observance,  thereby  limiting  its  powers  v.'ithin  a  pre- 
scribed sphere  of  action.  Fundamental  laws  must  necessarily  be  general  in  their 
character,  otherwise  they  would  swell  into  a  formidable  code  of  legislative  enact- 
ments. These  ofeneral  laws  are  intended  as  guides  to  the  practical  Government  es- 
tablished bv  them,  and  are  to  such  practical  Government  what  that  Government  is  to 
the  individual  citizens.  The  social  compact  or  written  Constitution  prescribes  rules 
of  conduct  for  the  observance  of  the  practical  Government.  The  practical  Govern- 
ment prescribes  rules  of  conduct  for  the  observance  of  its  individual  citizens.  All 
Governments  profess  to  have  the  same  objects  in  view  in  their  formation — the  safety 
of  the  people  from  all  violence  witliout  or  within — the  protection  of  person — and  the 
protection  of  property.  These  last  are  effected  by  an  equal  administration  of  justice 
to  all.  All  these  great  objects  can  only  be  effected,  by  drawing  from  nature  great 
general  principles,  applicable  to  the  science  of  politics,  for  the  formation  of  a  prac- 
tical Government,  which,  from  its  own  intrinsic  operation,  shall  produce  good  moral 
tendencies  on  the  community  over  which  it  is  established.  Two  general  modes  only 
have  heretofore  been  devised  for  the  formation  of  Governments,  with  the  exceptions 
of  a  few  Republics  of  verv  limited  extent  of  t-erritory  and  population.    The  one 

114 


906 


APPENDIX— NO.  I, 


through  the  notion  of  inviolability — the  other,  through  the  principle  of  responsibility. 
Governments  founded  on  the  notion  of  inviolability,  are  far  more  ancient,  and  even 
at  the  present  day  far  more  numerous  than  those  founded  on  the  principle  of  respon- 
sibility. TJie  notion  of  inviolability  is  not  found  in  nature.  It  is  of  human  invention. 
It  is  the  oiTspring  of  fraud  and  cunning,  supported  and  effectuated  by  force.  The 
admission  that  an  agent,  transacting  the  concerns  of  his  principal,  becomes  thereby 
invested  with  the  powers  to  exercise  jurisdiction  over  both  the  person  and  property 
of  such  principal,  through  an  invented  faculty  of  inviolabilit}'^,  is  repugnant  to  every 
dictate  of  nature,  and  of  common  sense.  The  notion  of  inviolability  cannot,  there- 
fore,  be  found  in  nature,  and  consequently  not  in  science — yet  the  elder  Mr.  Adams 
has  not  hesitated  to  declare,  that  the  British  Government,  which  is  founded  on  the 
notion  of  inviolability,  is  the  only  scientific  Government  in  the  world.  This  form  of 
Governm-.iC  professes  to  derive  its  origin  from  something  above  human  rights;  and 
for  the  want  of  something  mora  inteUigible,  asserts  that  origin  to  be  divine — derived 
from  God  himself.  This  origin,  if  true,  would  be  solid,  unquestionable  and  irresistible. 
But,  it  is  not  true — it  is  the  mere  invention  of  fraud  and  cunning.  Responsibility  is 
a  principle  found  in  nature — yet  the  Governments  founded  on  it  are  of  comparatively 
modern  date.  Tlie  North  American  Constitutions,  so  called  for  distinction's  sake,  are 
at  this  day  the  only  ones  founded  on  this  principle.  Attempts  at  its  imitation  have 
been  made  by  the  Mexican  and  South  American  Republics  ;  but,  they  are  at  this  time 
in  such  an  unsettled  state,  that  no  positive  conclusions  can  be  drawn  as  to  their  final 
destinies.  The  first  of  these  Constitutions  is  of  little  more  than  half  a  century  stand- 
ing, and  is  the  one  we  are  now  engaged  in  amending  or  destroying.  Responsibility 
is  a  principle  derived  from  nature.  It  consists  simply  in  the  obligations,  that  every 
agent,  who  undertakes  to  manage  the  concerns  of  his  principal,  thereby  takes  up(^ 
himself  to  account  for  his  conduct,  in  their  management,  to  his  principal.  It  is  the 
plain,  natural  principle  of  the  accouritability  of  the  agent  to  his  principal.  Every 
dictate  of  our  nature — every  dictate  of  the  innate  or  moral  sense,  attests  the  truth  of 
this  principle.  This  principle  of  responsibility  is  the  true  ground  of  the  representa- 
tive system  of  Government,  and  is  founded  upon  the  natural  rights  of  man,  in  his  in- 
dividual character.  These  form  the  basis  of  every  social  compact  or  written  Consti- 
tutioxa.  Every  social  compact  or  written  Constitution  is  formed  by  the  distribution  of 
these  rights  between  the  governors  and  the  governed.  This  distribution,  when  made, 
constitutes  what  is  called  the  Republican  form  of  Government ;  and  whether  such 
Government,  when  formed,  be  good  or  bad,  must  essentially  depend  upon  the  wise 
or  unwise  distribution  of  these  rights.  Inviolability  is  the  basis  of  the  Monarchical 
form  of  Government.  All  tlie  North  American  Constitutions,  as  well  State  as  Fe- 
deral, profess  to  be  founded  on  this  principle  of  responsibility  in  all  their  departments. 
The  Federal  Executive  professes  to  be  founded  on  the  same  principle,  but  the  test  of 
its  responsibility  has  been  found  in  practice,  inefficacious  and  unavailing.  That  test, 
during  the  continuance  of  the  Executive  in  office,  consists  only  in  impeachment, 
which  is  found  in  practice  to  be  an  inefiicient  test.  But,  the  real  inefficiency  of  the 
responsibility  of  the  Executive,  consists  in  the  great  patronage  originally  bestowed 
upon  it,  and  its  vast  accumulation  since  that  time.  Patronage  is  the  offspring  of  in- 
violability, not  of  responsibility — and  in  that  consists  the  great  error  in  the  organiza- 
tion of  the  Federal  Executive.  It  is  the  anomalous  adaptation  of  a  Monarchical  Ex- 
ecutive to  a  Republican  Legislature.  Patronage  is  tlie  natural  enemy  of  responsi- 
bility, and  has  been  seen  at  open  war  with  it  in  the  administration  of  the  Federal 
Government,  particularly  since  its  vast  accumulation  v/ithin  the  last  fifteen  or  twenty 
years.  The  Virginia  Executive  is  founded  on  the  same  principle  of  responsibihty, 
but  it  is  an  actual,  eliicacious  one — not  merely  virtual  or  nominal.  Its  test  is  the  best 
that  human  wisdom  could  devise. 

Mr.  G.  expressed  extreme  regret,  that  this  part  of  our  Constitution  should  have 
been  so  much  misrepresented  through  the  public  prints,  and  he  feared,  so  little  un- 
derstood through  the  State  generally.  He,  therefore,  begged  the  dispassionate  and 
deep  reflections  of  the  Committee  to  this  brunch  of  the  subject,  banishing,  as  far  as 
practicable,  all  former  prepossessions — and  he  hoped  to  be  indulged  with  a  more  mi- 
nute examination  and  illustration  of  this  part  of  the  subject,  fie  said,  the  Governor 
and  Council  v/ere  respectively  elected  by  joint  ballot  of  both  branches  of  the  Legis- 
lature. The  present  Constitution  requires,  that  a  regular  journal  of  the  proceedings 
of  the  Council  should  be  kept  and  subscribed  by  the  Councillors  themselves.  The 
Councillors  are  made  advise x a  of  the  Governor  by  the  Constitution,  and  these  jour- 
nals, containing  minutes  of  all  their  advice,  are  at  ail  times  subject  to  the  call  of  the 
General  Assembly,  and  are  in  fact  annually  called  for  by  the  House  of  Delegates. 
In  these  provisions  will  be  seen  a  complete  and  perfect  test  of  the  accountability  of 
the  Councillors  to  their  electors.  The  same  journals  furnish  the  test  of  the  accounta- 
bihty  of  the  Governor.  He  is  required  to  follow,  or  refuse  to  follow,  the  advice  of  the 
Council — and,  in  either  case,  the  journals  will  exhibit  his  conduct;  and,  therefore, 
furnish  a  perfect  test  of  his  responsibility  also.    But,  the  tests  of  responsibility  do  not 


APPENDIX— NO.    1.  907 

stop  here.  The  Constitution  contains  a  provision  foi*  excluding,  periodically,  two  of 
the  Councillors,  instead  of  leaving  their  offices  to  expire  periodically;  and  thus  adds 
greatly  to  the  efficacy  and  severity  of  the  test  of  their  responsibihty.  This  provision 
has  generally  heen  designated  by  the  term  "  ostracism,"  as  indicating  its  extreme  se- 
verity. In  practice,  this  extreme  severity  seems  to  be  universally  admitted.  Yet,  it 
detracts  nothing  from  the  consummate  wisdom  of  its  author,  the  celebrated  and  vene- 
rated George  Mason.  His  object  was  to  have  a  completely  and  efficiently  responsible 
Executive,  and  he  was  entirely  without  a  model,  all  pre-existing  Governments  having 
been  founded  on  the  notion  of  inviolability.  He  was  compelled,  therefore,  to  resort 
exclusively  to  the  efforts  of  his  own  great  independent  mind,  to  effect  his  own  novel, 
untried  conception,  and  his  vrisdom  is  manifested  in  selecting  means  best  suited  to 
the  accomplishment  of  his  ends.  The  Virginia  Executive  is  the  only  strictly  respon- 
sible, and,  therefore,  the  only  Republican  one  known  to  Mr.  G.  The  error  of  the 
celebrated  George  Mason  consisted  in  a  modification  of  his  principle,  by  pushing  this 
test  to  an  extreme.  It  probably  did  not  occur  to  him,  that  this  extreme  s"everity  would 
have  immoral  tendencies,  by  calling  into  action  some  of  the  worst  of  human  passions, 
whenever  it  should  be  brought  into  practical  execution.  This,  however,  was  its  na- 
tural tendency,  and  has  been  reduced  to  proof  by  practice.  Hence,  it  seems  unani- 
mously agreed,  that  this  provision  should  be  expunged  from  the  Constitution ;  for, 
whenever  it  is  ascertained  that  any  provision,  from  its  own  intrinsic  operations,  tends 
to  produce  immoral  results,  it  is  surely  sufficient  groi;'->d  for  its  rejection.  Equally 
unfounded  are  all  the  charges  which  have  been  put  into  circulation,  through  the  news- 
papers, against  the  Constitution  itself,  that  it  was  the  production  of  an  unauthorised 
body  of  men,  and  the  effect  of  hurry  and  alarm — that  little  or  no  deliberation  had 
been  employed  in  its  formation.  Directly  the  reverse  of  truth  are  all  these  invented, 
unfounded  suggestions.  It  was  the  production  of  perhaps  the  wisest  duly  authorised 
body  of  men  tliat  ever  assembled  in  the  United  States,  and  it  was  the  result  of  the 
most  perpetual  and  unceasing  labours  from  the  GUi  of  May,  to  the  29th  of  June,  1776. 
Every  provision  contained  in  it  was  disputed  inch  by  inch,  and  the  best  efforts  of  the 
soundest  heads,  the  purest  hearts,  and  the  best  informed  minds,  were  exerted  to  the 
utmost  to  bring  it  to  its  consummation — and  its  wisdom  is  abundantly  manifested  by 
its  moral  tendencies  over  the  Virginia  people  for  above  half  a  century,  and  the  un- 
paralleled political  blessings  enjoyed  by  them  during  that  time.  To  rescue  the  existing 
V^irginia  Constitution  from  these  unworthy,  unfounded  imputations  brought  against 
it,  and  to  present  to  the  Committee  a  correct  view  of  the  real  liistory  of  its  formation, 
Mr.  G.  begged  to  call  its  attention  to  a  letter  from  the  late  Mr.  Jefferson  to  the  late 
celebrated  Judge  Woodward,  referring  to  one  from  Mr.  Pendleton,  the  President  of 
the  Convention,  containing  a  sketch  of  this  history.  An  extract  from  this  letter  will 
be  found  in  a  volume  of  political  miscellanies  recently  compiled  by  himself,  intended 
to  perpetuate  that  and  many  other  highly  important  political  facts,  some  of  which 
will  be  found  to  be  directlj'-  tlie  reverse  of  what  he  believes  tliey  are  generally  under- 
stood to  be.  Mr.  G.  then  read  from  this  volume  the  follov\nng  extract  of  the  letter 
referred  to  : 

"  The  fact  is  unquestionable,  that  the  Bill  of  Rights  and  the  Constitution  of  Vir- 
ginia, were  drav/n  originally  by  George  Mason,  one  of  our  really  great  men,  and  of 
the  first  order  of  greatness.  The  history  of  the  preamble  to  the  latter  is  as  follows : 
I  was  then  at  Philadelphia  with  Congress,  and  knowing  that  the  Convention  of  Vir- 
ginia was  engaged  in  forming  a  plan  of  Government,  1  turned  my  mind  to  the  same 
subject,  and  drew  a  sketch  or  outline  of  a  Constitution,  with  a  preamble,  which  I  sent 
to  Mr.  Pendleton,  President  of  the  Convention,  on  the  mere  possibihty  that  it  might 
suggest  something  vrorth  incorporation  into  that  before  the  Convention.  Re  informed 
me  afterwards,  by  letter,  tha.t  he  received  it  on  the  day  on  which  the  Committee  of 
the  Whole  had  reported  to  the  House  the  plan  they  had  ao-reed  to ;  that  that  had  been 
so  long  in  hand,  so  disputed  inch  by  inch,  and  the  subject  of  so  much  altercation  and 
debate,  that  they  were  worried  witJa  the  contentions  it  had  produced,  and  could  not, 
from  mere  lassitude,  have  been  induced  to  open  the  instrument  again ;  but  that  being 
pleased  with  the  prcanible  to  mine,  they  adopted  it  in  the  House  by  way  of  amend- 
ment to  the  report  of  the  Committee  ;  and  thus  my  preamble  became  tacked  to  the 
work  of  George  Mason.  The  Constitution,  with  tlie  preamble,  vras  passed  on  tlie 
29th  of  June  ;  and  the  Committee  of  Congress  had  only  the  day  before  that  reported 
to  that  body  the  draught  of  the  Declaration  of  Independence.  The  fact  is,  that  that 
preamble  is  prior  in  composition  to  the  Declaration,  and  both  having  the  same  object 
of  justifying  our  separation  with  Great  Britain,  they  used  necessarily  the  same  mate- 
rials of  justification;  and  hence  their  similitude." 

In  this  extract  will  be  seen  the  most  complete  and  authentic  refutation  of  all  these 
unworthy  and  unfounded  imputations  against  the  framers  of  the  Constitution,  as  well 
as  against  the  Constitution  itself.  So  far  are  they  from  being  founded  in  truth,  it  is 
here  completely  demonstrated,  that  they  are  directly  the  reverse  of  truth.  Equally 
unfounded  is  the  still  more  degrading  imputation,  that  this  Constitution  was  made  in 


908 


APPENDIX  NO.  I. 


the  midst  of  peril,  and  was  the  hasty  effect  of  terror  and  alarm.  Mr.  G.  said,  he 
knew  it  had  often  been  tritely  said,  that  the  framers  of  this  Constitution  acted  "  with 
ropes  around  their  necks,"  and  hence,  the  false  and  degrading  inference,  that  the  in- 
strument itself  was  the  effect  of  terror  and  alarm.  It  is  true  that  the  framers  of  this 
Constitution,  did  act  in  the  midst  of  the  most  imminent  perils.  It  is  true,  that  durmg 
their  deliberations,  the  country  was  threatened  with  armed  bands  incalculably  greater 
in  numbers  and  in  military  skill,  than  any  force  that  could  be  brought  to  their  del'ence. 
But  It  is  equally  true,  that  this  appalling  force  inspired  neither  terror  nor  alarm ;  nor 
did  it  disturb  in  the  smallest  degree,  the  equanimity  of  mind  of  a  single  member  of 
the  Convention.  They  continued  their  dehberalions  with  the  most  perfect  calmness 
and  equanimity  of  mind,  from  the  6th  of  May  to  the  29th  of  June,  following ;  ex- 
hibiting a  more  remarkable  spectacle  of  heroic,  moral  courage,  dming  their  delibera- 
tions, than  of  consummate  wisdom  in  the  final  production  of  this  Constitution — the 
first  social  compact  that  ever  was  reduced  to  writing — the  first  written  Constitution 
that  ever  brought  into  practical  use,  the  great  principles  derived  from  the  natural 
rights  of  man.  Yes,  gentlemen,  the  29th  of  June,  1776,  is  the  first  day  in  which  the 
glorious  light  of  liberty  burst  forth  upon  a  benighted  world,  through  the  resplendent 
mirror  of  this  Constitution ;  and  that  ought  to  be  the  great  Jubilee  day,  not  only  for 
the  Virginia  people,  but  for  the  whole  human  race.  Mr.  G.  said,  he  never  could  sa- 
tisfactorily account  for  the  inattention,  or  almost  oblivion,  which  had  been  shewn  by 
the  people  of  Virginia,  to  the  29th  day  of  June,  1776,  which  ought  to  be  commemo- 
rated as  the  first  in  the  calendar,  unless  it  was  for  a  preference  given  to  the  4th  of 
July,  which  shortly  followed  it,  and  which  ushered  forth  the  Declaration  of  Indepen- 
dence to  the  world.  But,  the  Declaration  of  Independence  is  a  paper  of  incompara- 
bly less  importance  to  mankind,  than  the  Virginia  Constitution,  which  was  exclu- 
sively the  production  of  our  Virginian  forefathers;  and  the  only  possible  inducement 
which  he  could  conceive  to  justily  the  people  of  Virginia,  in  yielding  this  preference 
to  the  4th  of  July  for  commemoration,  instead  of  the  29th  of  June,  arose  from  their 
noble,  generous  self-denial,  for  which  they  have  been  so  justly  celebrated  on  other  oc- 
casions, in  being  willing  to  share  the  honour  and  glory  ot  this  great  political  discovery 
with  the  people  of  their  sister  States,  while  the  Virginian  people  were,  in  fact, 
exclusively  entitled  to  them.  The  least  attention  to  the  subject  must  admonish  us  all, 
that  the  Constitution  of  Virginia  is  a  paper  of  extremely  difterent  character  from  the 
Declaration  of  Independence.  The  Declaration  of  Independence  is  a  mere  act  of 
diplomacy.  It  is  the  mere  declaration  of  ambassadors  from  several  sovereign  States, 
which  at  that  time  had  surrendered  up  none  of  their  sovereign  rights,  nor  were  bound 
even  by  any  articles  of  confederation  :  for,  it  should  be  recollected  that  the  articles  of 
confederation  were  not  entered  into  at  the  time  of  the  Declaration  of  Independence, 
nor  for  more  than  two  years  thereafter — the  one  having  taken  place  on  the  4th  of 
July,  1776,  and  the  other  on  the  6th  of  July,  1778.  The  late  projected,  abortive 
Panama  Congress,  if  such  a  singular,  eccentric  conception  could  have  been  carried 
into  effect,  would  have  presented  a  precise  resemblance  of  that  Congress  which 
made  the  Declaration  of  Independence  :  Whereas  the  Virginia  Constitution  is  a 
written  social  compact,  the  first  ever  entered  into  by  man,  and  forms  the  most  instruc- 
tive model,  not  only  for  the  people  oT  the  other  American  States  but  for  the  whole 
human  race.  Mr.  G.  then  observed  that,  after  having  presented  this  outline  view  of 
some  of  the  general  principles  applicable  to  some  of  the  subjects  which  were  before 
them,  and  having  given  this  concise  sketch  of  the  history  of  the  formation  of  the 
Virginia  Constitution,  he  would  now  beg  leave  to  call  the  attention  of  the  Committee 
more  particularly  to  the  specific  subject  under  its  consideration.  That  subject  in- 
volves the  inquiry  as  to  the  best  mode  of  electing  the  Governor  of  Virginia.  Shall  he 
be  elected  by  the  General  Assembly,  or  by  the  people  of  Virginia  ?  Mr.  G.  said  he 
was  surprised  to  hear  several  highly  intelligent  gentlemen  of  the  Committee,  in 
speaking  upon  this  subject,  make  the  suggestion,  that  a  Governor  elected  by  the 
General  Assembly  would  not  be,  in  fact,  elected  by  the  people.  That  there  would,  in 
fact,  be  an  essential  difference  in  the  character  and  responsibility  of  the  Governor 
when  elected  by  the  people,  and  when  elected  by  the  Legislature  :  Whereas  he  con- 
ceived an  election  by  the  Legislature,  was  as  much  an  election  by  the  people,  as  if  the 
election  were  made  directly  by  themselves.  The  mode  only  is  different.  The  effect 
the  same.  This  result  is  the  effect  of  another  plain,  simple  principle  in  nature,  and, 
in  practice,  universally  received  as  a  legal  axiom,  "  he  who  acts  by  another,  acts  by 
himself;"  or,  in  other  words,  that  he  who  causes  a  thing  to  be  done,  does  that  thing 
himself.  When  the  people,  in  their  individual  characters,  have  elected  their  Legis- 
lative Representatives  and  invested  those  representatives  with  power  to  prescribe  rules 
of  conduct  for  their  observance,  they  have  done  all  that  is  necessary  for  the  security 
and  preservation  of  their  rights  and  liberties.  These  rules  essentially  afford  the  pro- 
tection of  human  rights  and  liberties.  Electing  the  ministerial  officers  for  carrying 
these  rules  into  effect,  would  add  nothing  to  the  security  of  these  rights  and  liberties. 
The  question,  therefore,  resolves  itself  into  a  mere  question  of  fitness,  expediency 


APPENDIX  NO.  1. 


909 


and  convenience.  Elections  by  individuals,  in  their  individual  capacity,  under  cer- 
tain circum-ianceS;  instead  of  securing  to  them  an  extension  of  rights,  might  impose 
up  j;i  lii-.n  0  leroua  duties.  In  the  present  case,  calling'  upon  the  people  in  their  in- 
d:vii  ..iri.ter  to  elect  their  Governors,  Juolciai  and  other  ministerial  officers, 
mig  :  -  dered  as  imposing  an  obligatory  duty,  instead  of  reserving-  to  them  an 

imp  .  -     ;  and  might  condict  with  all  just  conceptions  of  elections.    "What  is 

an  el  -  ■.  -  und  what  are  tlie  essential  requisitions  in  making  one.'  An  election  for 
reprt---;r V -5.  is  an  act  of  choice  between  candidates.  Knowledge  of  the  objects 
of  the  cii  jice  is  essentially  necessary  in  making  it  rightly.  In  the  election  of  a  Go- 
vernor of  Virginia  by  the  individual  voters,  how  would  it  be  possible  for  them  to  be 
acquainted  with  the  candidates ;.  at  least  to  any  material  extent  ?  The  choice  of  re- 
presentatives by  individuals  should  be  confined"  to  districts  of  country  of  such  limited 
extent,  as  to  enable  the  individual  voter  to  elect  his  candidate  from  his  own  know- 
ledge, or  from  knowledge  derived  from  his  neighbours  in  the  exercise  of  his  ordinary 
social  intercourse.  Individual  elections  beyond  a  sphere  like  this,  are  merely  formal 
and  factious.  They  are  not  made  iiT-'n  ih  \^  kird  r  f  kr.'^i-.vlec^e.  vliich  will  enable 
the  v  jter  to  judge  correctly  of  t  .-'  !  :dual  candidates. 

Tile  inevitable  elfect,  theretbre.    ;  .  ..:  :  ,•■  duty  of  making 

an  election  beyond  a  sphere  like  this.  i=  to  Uitu  w  ine  v  jIct  mlo  the  hands  of  the  elec- 
tioneerer,  and  to  subject  hiin  to  become  the  sport  of  the  electioneering  spirit — the 
most  demoralizing  of  all  others,  and  therefore  the  most  to  be  deprecated,  and  the 
last  that  ouirht  to  be  countenanced  or  encouraged  by  extending  its  scope  of  action. 
Even  at  the  present  moment,  and  within  the  last  four  3'ears,  the  most  conspicuous 
examples  of  this  electioneering  spirit  have  been  exhiuited  in  open,  unblushing 
public  harangues,  throughout  the  whole  United  States — disgraceful  to  the  election eerer, 
the  people  and  to  the  Government.  To  avoid  these  deplorable  and  demoralizing 
scenes,  intermediate  elections  have  been  resorted  to,  and  rendered  indispensable  by 
the  extent  of  territory  and  population.  This  refinement  in  elections,  by  intermediate 
agents,  is  a  prmeiple  peculiar  to  the  United  States.  It  is  already  carried  into  effect 
in  the  election  of  President  and  Senators  of  the  United  States,  and  must  be  much 
more  extensively  resorted  to  upon  the  increasino-  extent  of  inhabited  territory  and  of 
population — if  the  people  of  the  United  States  mean  to  preserve  and  to  perpetuate 
their  liberties.  Mr.  G.  expressed  great  regret,  that  while  he  was  perfectly  conscious 
that  nothing  could  save  and  perpetuate  the  liberties  of  the  people  of  the  United 
States,  but  intermediate  elections,  he  was  compelled,  most  reluctantly,  to  admit,  that 
the  popular  current  of  the  moment  is  running  strongly  in  favour  of  the  extension  of 
elections  by  the  people  individualh^  in  their  primar}'  assemblies.  Whilst,  therefore, 
he  thought  there  was  a  peculiar  unfitness  in  calling  upon  the  people  of  Virginia  to 
elect  their  Governor,  Judicial  and  other  ministerial  ofiicers.  in  their  individual  capa- 
cities, he  thought  the  General  Assembly  was  the  best  and  most  appropriate  tribunal 
that  could  be  devised  for  that  purpose,  and  had  always  heretofore  discharged  that  dufy 
most  beneficially  both  to  the  people  and  to  the  Government.  He  observed  that  the 
General  V  —  ^mbly  consisted  of  persons  chosen  by  the  people  from  every  nook  and 
corner  tv.e  State:  and  let  the  candidate  for  Governor  come  from  what  part  of  the 
State  he  mio-ht.  there  would  always  be  snm.e  of  the  members  who  would  necessarily 
be  acquainted  with  his  qualities  and  qualifications  for  the  ofiice  to  v.hich  he  aspires; 
and  such  members  always  could  and  always  would,  as  they  always  have  done,  com- 
municate this  knowledor'e  to  oth-rs.  This  is  precisely  that  kind  of  knowledge  which 
may  be  perfectly  confid'ed  in,  for  the  purpose  of  enabhng  each  individual  to  make  his 
choice.  There  is  always  a  presumption  too,  in  favour  of  t'lis  kind  of  information, 
from  the  circumstance,' that  it  is  given  by  one  honoured  by  the  votes  of  Ins  constitu- 
ents. Besides,  the  members  of  the  General  Assembly,  in  their  ordinary  intercourse, 
soon  become  acquainted  with  each  other  after  their  arrival  at  the  seat  of  Government, 
and  are  thus  enabled,  from  their  own  observation,  to  judge  of  the  degree  of  credit  to 
be  2'iven  to  such  communications.  It  is  not  proposed  tiien.  to  give  a  preference  to 
tile  General  Assemblv  in  the  appointment  of  ministerial  ofiicers,  for  the  want  of  ca- 
pa::tv  on  the  part  of 'the  people'to  judge  correctly,  but  for  the  want  of  that  kind  of 
knowledge,  which  would  enable  them  to  exercise  such  capacities  correctly.  From 
these  considerations,  and  many  others  which  might  be  added,  it  would  be  much  bet- 
ter, he  concluded,  that  the  General  Assembly  should  elect  the  Governor,  and  all  the 
highest  grades  of  Judicial  and  ministerial  o-Scers.  as  they  have  heretofore  done,  in  pre- 
ference to  referrincr  them  to  the  people  in  their  individual  characters.  Mr.  G.  said, 
it  should  be  recollected  by  the  Committee,  that  the  Executive  Department  formed  an 
essential  part  of  one  entire  system  of  Government ;  is  necessarily  and  intimately 
connected  with  the  whole,  and",  therefore,  ought  to  be  considered  in  connection  with 
that  one  Government  as  a  whole.  The  Government  of  Virginia,  as  a  whole,  has 
been  found  for  above  half  a  century's  experience,  uniformly  to  have  had  good,  moral 
tendencies  upon  society,  and  to  have  produced  the  best  moral  efi'ects  upon  its  present 
condition.    These  happy  results  could  only  have  arisen  from  an  harmonious  co-ope- 


910 


APPENDIX  NO.  I. 


ration  of  all  its  parts,  the  Executive  Department  with  the  rest,  in  producing  them. 
The  great  end,  in  the  formation  of  all  Constitutions  should  be,  to  promote  the  com- 
mon good;  and  no  Constitution  ever  yet  devised  has  been  found  more  successful  in 
producing  this  great  end,  than  the  existing  Constitution  of  Virginia.  This  has  been 
effected  by  the  wise  adaptation  of  all  its  parts,  in  their  practical  operation,  to  produce 
one  common  end,  and  is  founded  upon  the  same  principle  of  nature,  which,  in  prac- 
tice, constitutes  the  perfection  of  all  dramatic  productions;  the  tendency  of  all  its 
incidents  to  produce  an  unity  of  object  and  an  unity  of  action.  The  chief  means  by 
which  this  end  has  been  effected  in  the  Virginia  Constitution,  have  been,  the  ten- 
dency of  all  its  parts  to  place  a  great  preponderancy  of  the  governmental  powers  in 
the  hands  of  the  middling  class  of  society  ;  through  which  the  great  end — the  common 
good — has  been  most  effectually  produced  and  secured.  Whenever  a  Government 
is  so  formed,  as  from  its  own  intrinsic  operations,  to  place  a  great  preponderance  of 
its  powers  in  the  hands  of  the  middling  class,  it  may  be  said  to  be  a  near  approach  to 
governmental  perfection,  whatever  may  be  the  means  used  to  effect  that  end.  It  will 
be  readily  seen,  however,  that  such  end  could  never  be  produced  by  any  Government 
founded  upon  the  invented  notion  of  inviolability  :  Because  the  autocrat  is  in  every 
case  presumed  to  be  invested  with  all  power,  derived  too,  as  he  pretends,  from  a  di- 
vine ordination.  In  the  disposition  of  governmental  powers,  the  extremes  of  so- 
ciety should  always  be  avoided.  The  extreme  rich,  as  well  as  the  extreme  poor. 
Neither  extreme  can  be  a  safe  or  beneficial  depository  of  governmental  powers. 
The  Constitution  of  Virginia,  Mr.  Giles  said,  had  been  more  successful  in  placing 
a  great  preponderancy  of  power  in  the  hands  of  the  middling  class  of  sot  iety, 
than  any  other  Government  in  the  world ;  and  in  consequence  thereof,  he  be- 
lieved the  moral  condition  of  the  population  of  Virginia,  to  be  sounder  and  better 
than  that  of  any  other  in  tlie  world,  notwithstanding  the  mixture  in  its  com- 
position of  three  castes — the  white  free — the  coloured  free — and  the  coloured  slave 
population,  and  the  ver}'^  great  proportion  of  this  last  caste,  to  the  whole  free 
white  population.  Mr.  G.  said,  he  had  for  a  long  time  bestowed  much  reflection 
upon  this  novel  and  interesting  subject,  and  had  resorted  to  the  best  evidence  at  his 
command,  for  the  purpose  of  ascertaining  the  facts  in  relation  to  it.  He  said  the  first 
evidence  was  of  a  general  and  indefinite  character,  but  still,  he  thought  entitled  to 
great  respect.  It  consisted  of  the  general  celebrity  accorded  to  Virginians,  for  an  in- 
violable adherence  to  moral  principles,  even  in  opposition  to  their  own  supposed  in- 
terests. This  most  honourable  celebrity,  in  favour  of  Virginians,  had  been  manifested 
on  many  occasions,  and  in  various  ways,  since  the  abandonment  of  all  moral  princi- 
ples, and  the  introduction  of  an  unprincipled,  bargaining,  huckstering  and  trafiicking 
in  the  legislation  of  the  Federal  Government,  alike  degrading  to  its  authors  and  to 
the  Government.  It  has  been  particularly  attested  by  the  acknowledgements  and 
declarations  of  the  busy  authors  themselves,  of  this  unprincipled,  trafficking  course 
of  legislation.  It  had  often  been  observed,  when  a  proposition  was  made  for  intro- 
ducing a  Virginian  into  any  of  these  trafficking  schemes,  it  is  in  vain  to  apply  to  him; 
^'  He  is  a  Virginian — Virginians  never  abandon  their  principles  for  their  interests." 
How  honourable  this  celebrity  to  the  Virginian  character,  and  how  much  indebted  are 
all  Virginians  to  our  members  of  Congress  from  the  commencement  of  the  Govern- 
ment to  this  day,  for  this  honourable  distinction,  whose  uniform  conduct  during  that 
whole  time  has  been  such,  as  to  draw,  even  from  their  political  opponents,  this  reluc- 
tant admission.  And  to  what  cause  can  it  most  rationally  be  attributed  Certainly  to 
no  other  than  to  the  uniform  moral  tendencies  of  the  Virginia  fundamental  laws,  upon 
the  Virginia  people,  for  more  than  half  a  century.  What  other  imaginable  cause  can 
be  assigned  for  this  distinguished  effect And  v/hen  we  see  that  such  effect  is  pro- 
duced, is  it  not  perfectly  just  and  rational  to  ascribe  it  to  that  cause  in  preference  to 
any  other How  cautious,  therefore,  ought  we  to  be,  to  avoid  every  interpolation  into 
our  Constitution,  which  might,  by  possibility,  tend  to  deprive  us  of  this  distinguished 
celebrity  Mr.  G.  said,  that  the  only  other  evidence  upon  this  point,  to  which  he  had 
resorted,  was  through  the  Penitentiary  establishment  in  this  and  several  other  States. 
His  object  was  to  ascertain  the  number  of  convictions  in  each  State,  compared  with 
the  population  respectivelj^;  and  to  infer  the  moral  condition  of  each,  from  the  re- 
spective numbers  of  convictions  in  each  for  Penitentiary  offences.  Mr.  G.  said,  that 
with  this  view,  shortly  after  coming  into  his  present  office,  he  instructed  Mr.  Parsons, 
the  Superintendent  of  our  Penitentiary,  when  on  a  visit  to  the  Northern  and  Eastern 
States,  by  personal  inspection  of  the  several  Penitentiaries,  to  ascertain  several  facts, 
which  were  reduced  to  writing,  and  intended  to  show  the  actual  number  of  convicts 
in  each,  for  Penitentiary  offences.  This  service  the  Superintendent  performed  very 
much  to  his  satisfaction  ;  and,  in  addition  to  their  systems  of  prison  discipline,  ob- 
tained an  official  statement  of  the  most  material  information  called  for,  from  the  offi- 
cers of  each  Penitentiary  establishment.  The  result  of  the  whole,  was  highly  honor- 
able to  the  present  moral  condition  of  the  white  population  of  Virginia,  compared 
with  that  of  any  other  State,  from  which  the  information  had  been  derived;  and,  of 


APPENDIX  NO,  I. 


911 


course,  highly  honorable  to  tlie  moral  tendencies  of  our  fundamental  laws,  to  which 
cause  alone  it  must  be  attributed.  It  appeared,  that  at  that  time  the  nvmber  of  con- 
victs in  the  Penitentijiries  and  other  correctional  establishments  of  JSew  York,  ex- 
ceeded 1;300;  and  from  subsequent  information  less  authentic,  it  is  estimated  that 
the  number  now  exceeds  1,.5U0.  The  whole  population  of  !New  York,  at  the  last 
census,  exceeded  1,30U,C'gI)  and  probably  now  exceeds  l.oOO.OOO.  The  white  popu- 
lation of  \  irginia.  at  the  last  census,  when  fulij  corrected,  was  about  660. OOU — its 
probable  amount  at  present  may  be  estimated  at  ■rOO.OOO.  The  nimaber  of  white  con- 
victs in  the  Penitentiary  in  1526,  was  about  140,  and  there  has  been  no  increase  of 
convicts,  since  that  time,  corresponding  with  the  increase  of  population )  the  number 
being  at  this  c  ay  about  140.  Hence,  if  will  appear,  that  estimating  the  population  of 
New  York  at  double  the  free  white  population  of  Virginia,  there  would  be  rather 
more  than  five  times  as  many  convicts  in  New  York  for  Penitentiary  offences,  than 
in  \  irginia,  according  to  their  relative  population.  ]Mr.  G.  said,  he  "did  not  mean  to 
give  tiiis  statement  as  strictly  and  minutely  correct,  but  m^erely  to  present  sreneral 
relative  results.  He  said  he  had  been  induced  to  select  New  York  for  this  compari- 
son, because  the  late  Convention  of  that  State  had  been  frequently  resorted  to  for 
precedents  to  influence  the  measures  of  this  Convention ;  but  he  hoped  that  they 
would  be  considered  as  precedents  rather  to  be  shunned  than  to  be  fr.jlowed  ;  for  he 
had  the  best  reasons  to  beheve,  that  if  the  same  members  who  formed  that  Constitu- 
tion had  to  act  again,  they  would  themselves  disavow  the  very  precedents  they  had 
set;  for  he  believed  that  they  had  done  more  injury  to  the  former  Constitutio'n,  by 
the  single  provision  which  introduced  the  notion  of  universal  suSrage,  than  could  be 
compensated  for  by  all  the  other  amendments  put  toofether  :  and  the  very  members, 
who  introduced  that  provision,  would  be  the  last  to  introduce  it  under  the  experience 
of  its  practical  operauruis.  whilst  they  had  now  notliina-  left  but  the  deepest  lamenta- 
tions for  their  own  indiscretion.  31r.  G.  said,  he  thought  it  but  an  act  of  justice  to 
the  people  of  New  York,  to  ascribe  at  least  one-half  of  the  Penitentiary  offences, 
committed  in  that  State,  to  the  operation  of  that  fatal  measure,  and  from  the  elec- 
tioneering spirit  which  had  been  called  into  action  by  it.  [An  inquiry  was  made  of 
Mr.  G.  by  a  member  of  the  Committee,  what  relative  proportion  of  convicts  there 
was  in  the  Penitentiary  of  Massachusetts,  compared  with  those  in  the  Penitentiary 
of  Virginia  r  relying  upon  the  homogeneous  population  of  that  State  as  lessening  the- 
proportion  against  the  State  of  New  York,  arising,  as  he  presumed,  from  the  mixed 
character  of  the  population  of  tliat  State.]  Mr.  G.  replied,  that  there  was  a  smaller 
disproportion,  which  he  could  not  ascertain  precisely  :  but  he  was  confident  it  was  at 
least  two  to  one  asrainst  the  Massachusetts'  population ;  and  was  above  that  propor- 
tion in  every  other  State,  from  which  he  had  received  authentic  information.  Mr.  G, 
said,  his  enquiries  into  the  relative  numbers  of  convictions  for  Penitentiary  offenceSj. 
had  led  to  the  discovery  of  another  fact,  which  was  unexpected  to  him ;  and  he  pre- 
sumed would  be  to  others.  That  there  were  fewer  convictions  for  Penitentiary  of- 
fences by  slaves,  than  the  free  white  population  of  Virginia  according  to  their  relative 
numbers — doubtlessly  arising  from  the  comfortable  condition  of  the  slaves :  That 
although  slaves  were  not  punishable  in  the  Penitentiary,  yet  all  the  records  of  con- 
victions for  capital  and  Penitentiary  offences  by  slaves,  are  laid  before  the  Executive^ 
and  registered  in  the  Penitentiary — and  except  in  capital  cases,  the  convicted  slaves 
were  brought  there  for  the  purpose  of  carr3-ing  into  effect  their  punishment,  by  sale 
and  transportation.  The  number  who  suffer  death  for  capital  offences,  is  so  small,  as 
not  to  make  any  difference  in  the  relative  results:  Vrhilst  tiie  number  of  the  con- 
victions of  the  free  coloured,  is  about  four  times  greater,  according  to  numbers,  than 
either  the  free  white,  or  coloured  slave  population.  Mr.  G.  said,  that  he  was  im- 
pressed with  tlie  strongest  convictions  that  die  superior  moral  condition  of  the  popu- 
lation of  Virginia  over  that  of  any  other  State,  from  which  he  had  received  inibrma- 
tion,  wa.s  produced  more  from  the  unfortunate  notion  wliich  had  been  introduced  mto 
practice  tiiere,  of  electing  universal  officers — legislative,  judicial,  ministerial  and 
military — by  universal  suffrage,  than  by  any  other  cause  whatever.  Mr.  G.  said,  that 
the  extension  of  the  right  of  suffrage,  not  only  to  persons  but  to  offices,  had  intro- 
duced the  baneful  electioneering  spirit,  which  had  produced,  and  always  would  pro- 
duce, more  general  corruption  in  society,  than  almost  any  other  cause  whatever.  It 
had  introduced  an  increased  waste  of  whiskey,  waste  of  labour,  waste  of  time,  waste 
of  money,  and  an  increased  waste  of  morals,  as  a  necessary  and  indispensable  con- 
sequence of  all  the  other  ruinous  wastes  he  had  mentioned.  Mr.  G.  said,  tliat  he  had 
no  doubt  whatever,  that  the  increased  waste  of  whiskey  in  New  York,  since  the  ex- 
tension of  the  right  of  suffrage  there,  would  be  more  than  all  the  savings,  from  eJl 
the  temperance  societies  put  together.  They  were  ephemeral  in  their  character  and 
effects,  and  might,  perhaps,  pass  away  before  Christmas  :  Whereas,  tlie  extension  of 
the  principle  of  suffrage  in  tiie  Constitution,  had  heretofore  been  uniform  in  its  effects, 
and  he  feared,  would  hereafter  be  eternal.  -Sir.  G.  observed,  that  he  Had  heretofore 
confined  his  remarks  to  the  Slate  of  Nev.'  York,  in  consequence  of  her  Convention 


913 


APPENDIX  NO.  I. 


having  been  frequently  held  up  as  a  precedent  to  guide  our  dehberations.  He  would 
now  beg  to  call  the  attention  of  the  Committee  to  the  effects  which  had  been  pro- 
duced in  the  State  of  Alabama,  in  consequence  of  the  introduction  into  her  Constitu- 
tion, of  this  popular  notion  of  election  to  universal  offices  by  universal  suffrage.  He 
stated  that  he  had  no  invidious  feelings  towards  the  peopl|  of  the  State  of  Alabama, 
nor  of  the  State  of  New  York,  but  entertained  the  best  fei'/uw  feelings  towards  both. 
The  account  he  proposed  to  give,  was  taken  from  a  Huntsville  newspaper;  and  re- 
lated to  the  election  before  the  last.  He  said,  in  forming  the  Constitution  of  Alabama, 
to  avoid  the  onerous  burdens,  which  would  be  imposed  upon  the  people,  by  the  fre- 
quent recurrence  of  the  days  of  elections,  for  such  a  multiplicity  of  officers,  it  was 
speciously  provided  that  all  the  elections  should  be  held  on  the  same  day.  The  con- 
sequence was,  that  the  Governor,  the  Judges  of  the  Superior  Courts,  justices  of  the 
peace,  sheriffs,  constables,  &c.  &c.  were  seen  trampoozmg  the  whole  State,  calling 
upon  the  people  to  attend  barbacues  and  frolics  of  all  kinds,  for  the  purpose  of  quali- 
fymg  the  voters  to  exercise  the  great  elective  franchise,  to  the  best  advantage  ;  and 
for  three  months  before  the  great  day  of  election,  a  great  portion  of  the  whole  people 
of  Alabama  were  seen  prostrated  through  the  potent  influence  of  the  delicious  fumes 
of  whiskey.  When  tlie  great  jubilee  day  arrived,  for  exercising  the  great  elective 
francliise,  by  universal  suffi-age,  for  the  advantage  of  the  State,  and  tlie  honor  and 
dignity  of  man,  a  vast  number  of  bottles  of  whiskey,  arranged  in  fantastical  rows, 
with  fantastical  labels  around  their  necks,  were  exhibited  in  Huntsville,  by  the  dif- 
ferent candidates,  and  the  universal  suffrage  voters  were  called  upon  to  drink  deep  of 
their  Pyerian  contents,  as  tlie  best  qualification  for  the  discharge  of  their  great  politi- 
cal duties.  And  so  freely  and  generously  did  they  obey  these  calls,  that  when  the 
hour  of  voting  arrived,  it  was  said,  there  were  scarcely  sober  voters  enough  to  take  the 
votes  of  the  drunken  ones.  If  in  carrying  into  effect,  this  popular  notion  of  electing 
universal  officers,  by  universal  suffrage,  in  the  Alabama  Constitution,  the  framers  had 
determined,  that  there  should  be  as  many  public  officers,  as  there  were  voters,  and 
that  each  voter  might  vote  for  himself,  they  would  have  found  themselves  precisely 
where  they  started,  when  they  commenced  the  formation  of  their  social  compact. 
How  far  their  present  Constitution  falls  short  of  this  extreme,  the  Committee  may 
judge.  He  intreated  every  gentleman  of  the  Committee  seriously  to  reflect,  and  to 
ask  himself ;  whether  he  did  not  conscientiously  believe,  that  the  extension  of  the 
right  of  suffrage  vvould  most  essentially  tend  to  the  extension  of  the  scope  of  action 
for  the  electioneering  spirit;  to  the  extension  of  vice,  intrigue  and  corruption,  and 
thus  to  demoralize  society  to  its  very  core?  And  if  so,  ought  a  provision  to  be  intro- 
duced into  our  Constitution  under  a  firm  conviction  of  its  demoralizing  tendencies 
upon  our  happy  society;  rendered  peculiarly  so,  by  the  moral  tendencies  of  onr  pre- 
sent fundamental  laws?  From  this  view  of  the  consequences  of  the  extension  of  the 
right  of  suffrage  in  other  States,  how  cautious  ought  we  to  be  against  disturbing  the 
calmness  and  deliberation,  characteristic  of  our  elections,  by  the  introduction  here  of 
such  scenes  of  revelry,  intoxication  and  corruption  ! 

Mr.  G.  said,  that  he  had  already  extended  his  remarks  greatly  bej^ond  the  limits  he 
had  marked  out  for  himself,  in  the  commencement,  but  he  could  not  resist  the  desire 
he  felt,  to  present  to  the  Cniumittee,  for  its  dispassionate  consideration,  some  observa- 
tions upon  the  most  obvious  and  deprecated  consequences,  of  placing  the  powers  of 
Government,  into  the  hands  of  the  extremes  of  society.  For  this  purpose,  he  begged 
leave  to  present  Great  Britain  to  the  view  of  the  Committee,  as  an  example,  for  illus- 
trating the  case,  of  placing  all  Governmental  power  in  the  hands  of  the  extreme  rich; 
both  in  regard  to  the  moral  and  political  condition  of  the  people.  He  said.  Great  Bri- 
tain, including  Ireland,  possessed  a  population,  estimated  at  21,500.000  souls;  that  out 
of  this  vast  population,  280,000  possessed  all  tlie  property ,  including  the  %  ast  public  debt 
in  England,  Wales,  Scotland  and  Ireland.  This  most  wonderful  and  iiiiportant  fact, 
was  ascertained  by  a  number  of  philosophical  gentlemen  in  London,  from  an  actual 
inspection  of  the  returns  of  all  the  persons,  who  paid  the  late  income  tax.  Add  to  this 
number  the  unproductive  laborers  in  the  army  and  navy,  the  tythe  and  tax-gatherers, 
estimated  at  220,000  more  ;  and  it  would  appear,  that  all  the  fiscal  laws  of  Great  Bri- 
tain, were  made  for  500,000  unproductive  lal)orers,  and  against  21 ,000,000  of  produc- 
tive laborers.  This  is  effected  by  the  distribution  of  the  proceeds  of  labor,  through 
tythe  and  tax-gatherers,  taking  from  the  productive  laborers  the  whole  proceeds  of 
their  labor,  and  transferring  them  to  th-e  unproductive  laborers.  The  effects,  result- 
ing from  placing  all  Governmental  power  into  the  hands  of  the  extreme  rich,  are  thus 
seen  to  be,  almost  to  annihilate  the  middling  class,  to  deprive  a  great  portion  of  the  la- 
boring class  of  a  sufficient  portion  of  bread  for  their  mouths,  and  covering  for  their 
backs,  and  to  pamper  the  extreme  rich  with  so  many  luxurious  indulgencies,  as  to  de- 
bilitate both  mind  and  body  ;  rendering  the  body  almost  universally  gouty,  by  the  ar- 
tificial refinements  in  cookery,  and  debilitating  the  mind  through  sympathy  with  the 
body.  Such,  he  believed,  to  be  a  true  and  just  picture  of  the  moral  and  political  con- 
dition of  the  people  of  Great  Britain  ;  and  yet  this  condition  is  often  held  up  to  the 


APPENDIX  NO.  II. 


913 


American  people  for  their  imitation;  and,  strange  to  tell,  the  recent  policy  of  the  Fe- 
deral Goyernment,  is  driving  them  on  to  the  Uke  lamentable  and  deprecated  condi- 
tion. Mr.  G.  said,  that  he  would  then  turn  the  attention  of  the  Committee,  to  the 
state  of  things  which  took  place  a  few  years  since  in  Kentucky ;  when  the  election- 
eering demagogues,  availing  themselves  of  the  principles  of  general  suffrage,  stripped 
the  creditor  interest  of  one-half  of  their  debts,  in  favor  of  the  debtor  interest.  This 
was  done  by  the  establishment  of  about  forty  Banks,  without  any  capital  of  intrinsic 
value,  and  forcing  the  reception  of  the  paper,  which  they  issued,  upon  the  creditors, 
or  subjecting  them  to  conditions,  which  hazarded  the  loss  of  their  entire  debts.  The 
issuing  of  these  paper-bills,  as  a  relief  of  the  debtor  against  the  creditor  interest,  was 
hailed  with  delirious  joy,  by  the  unthinking  portion  of  the  community,  throughout  all 
Kentucky.  Yet,  in  less  than  four  5'ears  after  this  injustice  had  been  practised  upon 
the  creditor  interest,  and  the  morals  of  the  communitj-  materially  impaired,  it  was 
found  necessary  to  gather  in  these  same  bills,  and  commit  them  to  the  flames;  and 
upon  every  newspaper  annunciation,  of  an  auto  de  fe  of  these  bills,  the  people  mani- 
fested a  still  more  delirious  joj'  than  that  which  marked  their  issuing.  These  most 
unwise  and  immoral  measures,  effectually  destroyed  all  the  commercial  credit  of  the 
State  abroad,  and  demoralized  the  people  at  home,  by  the  introduction  of  universal 
injustice  and  corruption.  How  strongly  are  we  admonished  by  these  examples, 
against  the  introduction  into  our  happy  system  of  Government,  of  any  untried  expe- 
dients, which  may,  even  by  possibihty,  disgrace  our  people  and  Government  by  the 
like  results  !  Mr.  G.  said,  he  had  been  induced  to  present  these  views  to  the  Com- 
mittee, in  the  hope,  that  each  member  would,  for  himself,  bestow  that  dispassionate 
and  profound  deliberation  upon  them,  which  he  thought  their  importance  demanded. 
Mr.  G.  observed,  that  he  intended  to  have  presented  to  the  view  of  the  Committee, 
for  their  consideration,  two  more  highly  interesting  subjects,  but  having  already  de- 
tained them  much  longer  in  making  this  address,  than  he  expected,  he  would  defer 
them  to  some  future  occasion,  should  a  proper  one  hereafter  arise. 


(No.  2.) 

Mr.  Giles's  Speech  on  the  Executive  Council,  delivered  in  the 
Convention  on  JVovember  2Sth,  1829.  [Referred  to  on  page  490, 
of  this  T^olume.) 

Mr.  Giles  addressed  the  Convention  nearly  as  follows  : 

Before  we  proceed  to  the  abolition  of  the  Executive  Council,  I  should  suppose  that 
we  ought  at  least  to  be  agreed  as  to  the  facts  of  the  case  ;  that  we  ought  at  least  to 
understand  what  is  the  present  organization  of  the  Council  we  are  about  to  abolish. 
I  do  not  believe  that  at  present,  we  are  all  agreed,  either  as  to  its  organization,  or  its 
practical  operation.  Surely,  where  the  facts  are  attainable  and  indisputable,  we 
ought  to  agree  upon  what  they  are,  before  we  proceed  to  act.  The  gentlemen, 
(Messrs.  Henderson  and  Doddridge,)  commence  their  objections  to  the  Executive 
on  the  supposed  ground  of  its  want  of  responsibility.  Now  I  presume,  if  these  gen- 
tlemen shall  find  that  they  heve  misapprehended  the  matter,  and  that  the  Execu- 
tive of  Virginia,  instead  of  being  an  irresponsible  body,  is  the  most  responsible  that 
ever  existed  under  any  Constitution,  they  will  at  least  withdraw  that  objection.  Both 
the  gentlemen  told  us,  we  had  been  sent  here  by  the  people  expressly  to  abolish  the 
Executive  Council,  and  to  extend  the  Right  of  Suffrage.  ]f  this  be  so,  all  delibera- 
tion upon  those  points  will  be  in  vain.  We  have  only  to  obey  'h^  will  of  those  who 
sent  us.  But  I  presume  it  is  not  the  case.  I  believe  we  were  sent  here  to  deliberate — 
to  deliberate  coolly  and  in  a  spirit  of  mutual  respect  and  concession;  and  after  we 
have  satisfied  ourselves  of  the  premises,  to  come  to  such  conclusion  as  in  our  own 
judgments  they  shall  render  proper.  The  gentlemen  urged  one  consideration,  in 
which  I  am  persuaded  they  are  mistaken.  They  assert,  that  a  majority  of  the  firee- 
holders  were  in  favour  of  this  Convention.  Sir,  I  doubt  the  fact — I  doubted  it  when 
I  signed  the  proclamation  calling  the  Convention.  My  personal  impression  then  was, 
as  it  still  is,  that  a  majority  of  the  freeholders  of  Viro-inia,  were  not  in  favour  of  it, 
and  I  mentioned  this  impression  at  the  time  to  the  Council.  I  will  state  the  reasons 
of  that  impression.  There  was  indeed  upon  the  returns  an  apparent  majority  in  fa- 
vour of  calling  a  Convention  of  more  than  4000.  But  on  a  critical  examination,  it 
will  be  found  that  in  those  counties  v,-here  the  people  had  no  wish  for  a  change  in 
the  Constitution,  the  votes  were  comparatively  few.  The  freeholders  being  content 
with  their  present  condition,  were  without  any  stini'ilus  to  action-    But  in  the  coun- 

115 


914 


APPENDIX— NO.  II. 


ties  which  were  anxious  for  a  new  Constitution  nearly  all  the  freeholders  turned  out, 
and  their  votes  were  generally  given.  It  is  my  belief,  that  if  the  returns  had  been 
equally  full  all  over  the  State,  the  majority  would  have  been  materially  diminished,  if 
not  carried  to  the  opposite  side.  In  examining  the  whole  progress  of  the  matter,  it 
will  be  found,  that  there  were  vast  numbers  who  had  no  personal  wish  for  any  altera- 
tion in  the  Constitution,  but  who  voted  in  favour  of  a  Convention  from  a  disposition 
to  indulge  their  friends  who  thought  it  all  important.  Many  were  influenced  too,  by 
the  popular  slang  of  being  willing  to  trust  the  people.  If  these  two  classes  of  voters 
were  added  to  the  minority,  it  is  my  settled  impression  that  they  would  have  made  a 
majority  against  calling  any  Convention  at  all.  But  whatever  might  have  been  the 
opinion  of  the  mass  of  freeholders  at  that  time,  I  ask  of  every  gentleman  to  say, 
whether  he  does  not  believe  that  the  majority  would  be  opposed  to  it  now,  since  they 
have  witnessed  the  exhibition  here  ;  such  as  it  is  and  has  been  Does  any  gentleman 
believe,  that  if  the  freeholders  of  Virginia,  should  speak  their  minds  respecting  the  call 
of  a  Convention  this  day.  we  should  be  any  longer  favoured  with  our  seats  here  ?  I 
for  one  do  not  believe  it.  Sir,  our  proceedings  have  alarmed  the  country  and  have 
furnished  the  best  argument  against  a  Convention  that  ever  was  given.  They  have 
threatened  the  total  demolition  of  the  first  and  best  Constitution  in  the  world.  I  have 
no  doubt,  the  gentlemen  are  perfectly  sincere  in  their  convictions  on  this  subject.  I 
am  equally  so.  I  hope  we  shall  compare  opinions  in  mutual  confidence  and  good  feel- 
ing.   My  sole  object  is  to  get  at  truth,  regardless  of  all  extraneous  influences. 

As  to  the  responsibility  of  the  Council,  I  was  still  more  astonished  at  what  fell  from 
the  gentlemen.  Give  me  leave  on  this  subject  to  state  what  is  the  actual  relation  which 
subsists  between  the  Governor  of  this  Commonwealth  and  the  Executive  Council. 
The  gentleman  from  Brooke,  I  perceive  is  misinformed  in  regard  to  it,  although,  he 
tells  us,  that  his  constituents  sent  him  here  for  the  very  purpose  of  abolishing  the 
Council.  I  ask  that  gentleman,  if  there  is  a  single  man  in  his  district  or  in  mine, 
who  can  be  said  to  know  with  any  accuracy  what  the  relation  between  the  Governor 
and  this  Council  is?  and  what  his  constituents  know  upon  the  subject.'*  I  am  per- 
suaded there  is  not  one,  among  his  constituents  or  mine,  who  has  such  a  knowledge 
on  the  subject  as  entitles  him  to  instruct  his  delegate  how  to  act  in  relation  to  it. 
Surely  when  the  gentleman  from  Brooke  himself  is  not  accurately  informed,  it  cannot 
be  expected  that  the  people  should  be,  who  have  had  so  much  less  opportunity  to  be- 
come so.  The  gentleman  has  repeatedly  made  use,  when  speaking  of  the  Governor, 
of  the  word  "  commanded."  He  tells  us  the  Governor  is  "  commanded"  by  this 
Council  what  to  do.  Now  it  is  not  a  fact  that  the  Governor  is  either  subject  to  the 
command  of  the  Council  or  under  their  influence.  The  Council  "  advise"  the  Gover- 
nor. That  is  the  technical  term  properly  expressing  the  true  relation  between  them. 
The  Governor  has  the  whole  initiatory  power.  He  originates  every  measure — and 
he  asks  the  advice"  of  his  Council  upon  it,  nor  do  the  Council  in  any  case  advise 
him  until  their  advice  is  so  asked.  He  asks  for  it  in  his  own  words,  and  those  words 
are  entered  on  the  records  of  the  Council.  The  Governor  enters  the  request  in  his 
own  v/ords,  and  the  Council  enter  their  reply  in  their  own  words.  He  has  full  power 
to  refuse  to  follow  their  advice,  although,  in  all  cases  submitted  to  them,  he  has  no 
power  to  act  without  it.  I  should,  without  hesitation,  have  refused  to  follow  it  in  my 
own  case,  if  circumstances  had  occurred  to  render  such  a  course,  in  my  judgment, 
proper  and  necessary.  Let  us  see  now,  how  this  arrangement  tests  the  responsibility 
of  the  Governor.  The  Governor  originates  a  measure  and  calls  for  the  advice  of  his 
Council  thereon.  Is  he  not  responsible  in  this.?  He  receives  their  advice — and  he 
refuses  it  or  not.  Is  not  this  on  his  own  responsibility  ?  Surely  it  is.  Every  act  of 
his  is  recorded  in  the  same  Journal  with  the  acts  of  the  Council,  and  that  record  is 
laid  before  the  electors  once  every  year.  I  ask  the  gentleman  to  say,  whether  a  Go- 
vernor can  by  any  possibility  be  placed  in  circumstances  where  he  will  be  more  com- 
pletely responsible.  This  is  all  just  and  proper.  It  secures  no  more  responsibility 
than  that  which  every  public  agent  owes  to  those  who  appoint  him.  He  is  not  and 
cannot  be  screened  in  any  way.  The  Council  too  are  called  upon  to  record  every  act 
they  perform  and  to  sign  the  record.  If  they  have  done  wrong,  they  are  thus  com- 
pelled to  give  evidence  against  themselves — and  to  whom  ?  To  those  who  put 
them  into  office,  and  can  put  them  out  of  it.  Such  is  the  test  of  their  responsibility. 
I  ask  the  gentleman  if  he  can  improve  it?  If  he  had  a  private  agent  of  his  own, 
could  he  do  more  than  to  say  to  him — first  mark  down  every  act  of  your  agency — 
now  sign  the  record — and  then  present  it  to  me  every  year  ?  Sir,  responsibility  was 
the  very  object  aimed  at  by  the  great  and  wise  man  who  penned  this  Constitution. 
I  can  see  the  traits  of  his  wisdom  throughout  the  instrument.  All  his  means  go  di- 
rectly to  their  ends,  and  all  those  ends  are  wise  and  efficient. 

We  have  heard  much  said  about  the  scratch,"  about  the  ostracism  of  the 
Council.  That,  1  grant,  is  an  act  of  severity,  such  as  I  never  knew  in  any  other 
case,  and  though  I  see  even  in  this  the  Avisdom  of  v/hich  I  have  just  spoken,  yet 
here  1  think  the  writer  of  the  Constitution  is  rather  on  an  extreme.    He  intended 


APPENDIX  NO.  II. 


915 


the  Council  should  be  a  permanent  bodyj  and  he  devised  tiiis  expedient  to  render  it  a 
responsible  body.  Some  of  the  members  are  obliged  to  go  out  at  the  end  of  every 
three  years,  by  a  vote  which  bears  the  aspect  of  a  mark  of  disrespect.  This  is  a  re- 
sponsibility, such  as  I  never  saw  any  where.  It  is  a  responsibility  which  is  inevitable, 
uniform,  incessant,  everlasting.  The  gentleman  indeed  says,  that  the  members  of 
which  the  Council  is  composed,  operate  to  obscure  the  responsibility  of  individuals. 
But,  this  is  another  mistake  of  the  gentleman.  Each  member  who  disapproves  any 
vote  that  is  given,  has  libert37  to  enter  his  protest  on  the  record — and  this  stimulus  of 
the  ostracism  is  found  to  be  sufficient  to  induce  each  member  to  protect  himself  by  his 
protest,  wherever  a  case  of  his  disapprobation  occurs.  He  knows  that  the  Journal 
must  be  openly  examined  before  the  Assembly.  He  knows  that  some  members  of 
the  Council  must  be  excluded,  and  this  induces  him  to  take  great  care  to  enter  his 
protest  against  any  advice  which  he  may  consider  erroneous.  This  is  the  good  effect 
of  the  scratch.  I  ask,  if  it  be  possible  to  devise  a  sj'stem  of  m.ore  complete  responsi- 
bilityIt  is  responsibility  in  the  extreme.  It  is  responsibility  carried  to  excess;  for, 
I  would  never  introduce  any  test,  which,  in  its  own  nature,  is  calculated  to  have  an 
evil  tendency;  and  the  operation  of  this  ostracism  certainly  has  a  tendency  to  excite 
evil  passions.  I  consider  the  advice  as  ill-chosen,  and  I  am  in  favour  of  rejecting  it. 
It  introduces  jealousies  when  the  umfortunate  time  arrives.  Yv'hen  the  selection  is 
to  be  made,  it  calls  into  action  every  angry  passion  of  the  human  mind.  Every  mem- 
ber exerts  himself  to  preserve  his  own  reputation,  and  they  almost  unavoidably  get 
into  collision  with  each  other.  The  amendment  proposed  by  the  gentleman  from 
Richmond,  (Mr.  Nicholas,)  seems  to  me  to  present  a  perfect  cure  for  this  evil,  and  I 
am  ready  to  adopt  it.  His  amendment  keeps  up  the  stability  of  the  Council,  and  se- 
cures at  the  same  time  a  sufficient  degree  of  responsibility.  It  is  very  important, 
that  there  should  be  in  the  Council  experienced  members;  because,  in  the  exercise 
of  the  Executive  functions,  there  are  many  precedents  which  ought  to  be  known  and 
remembered.  As  to  the  impeachment  of  tiie  G-overnor,  the  gentleman  from  Brooke 
was  under  the  impression  that  it  operated  while  the  Governor  was  in  office,  and  that 
his  term  might  run  out  before  the  impeachment  was  ended.  Hence  he  argued,  that 
the  responsibility  arising  from  impeach.ment,  was  merely  nominal.  Here  is  another 
mistaken  impression  of  the  gentleman.  He  will  look  in  vain,  in  George  Mason's 
Constitution,  for  features  thus  incompatible  with  each  other.  The  i:-.ipeachment  of 
a  Governor  takes  effect  after  his  term  of  office  has  expired  ;  and  by  producing  a  dis- 
abilty  again  to  serve,  it  does  operate  to  secure  his  responsibility  in  one  mode,  although 
not  so  efficient  as  that  by  re-election. 

Sir,  if  I  shall  have  been  so  fortunate  as  to  relieve  the  gentleman  from  Brooke  from 
a  mistaken  impression  as  to  the  irresponsibility  of  our  Executive,  and  if  it  now  ap- 
pears that  tlie  Executive  of  Virginia  is  in  fact  and  in  truth  the  most  responsible  Ex- 
ecutive now  in  the  world,  I  hope  the  Executive  Council  v.'-ill  not  be  rejected  for  a  want 
of  responsibility.  But  it  is  said,  that  under  the  existing  Constitution,  the  Governor 
possesses  no  power.  Let  us  look  at  the  power  that  he  has,  connected  with  the  Exe- 
cutive Council.  1st.  The  Governor  is  the  commander-in-chief  of  the  whole  militia 
of  the  State,  and  commissions  all  officers,  civil  and  military,  whilst  the  Executive 
have  the  superintendence  of  all  the  arms  and  military  materials  of  all  sorts ;  of  the 
appointments  of  a  greater  portion  of  the  militia  officers,  all  County  Court  magistrates 
and  sheriffs;  also,  over  the  Penitentiary  establishment,  public  buildings,  &c.  &c. 
The  Governor,  sometimes  with  and  sometimes  without  the  advice  of  the  Council,  has 
all  the  power  which  is  given  him  by  law,  and  every  Legislature  assigns  him  impor- 
tant duties.  There  is  always  something  committed  to  him  to  do — and  has  this  trust 
ever  been  neglected  Can  gentlemen  point  out  a  single  instance,  from  the  beginning 
of  the  Government  to  this  day  ^  They  have  been  racking  the  Journals,  and  trying 
to  find  some  instance  of  mal-feasance.  The  gentleman  from  Brooke  gave  us  the  dis- 
coveries he  had  made — we  had  them  spread  before  us  in  extcnso.  Sir,  I  will  not  in- 
jure the  gentleman's  feelings,  by  throwing  back  upon  him  any  recollection  of  his  un- 
fortunate efforts ;  for,  I  entertain  towards  that  gentleman  nothing  but  good  feeling. 
But  it  has  served  to  shew,  that  after  exerting  the  best  efforts  of  his  mind  in  search  of 
charges,  he  has  been  able  only  to  discover  such  as  have  served  to  call  forth  the  highest 
eulogiums  of  the  highest  Judicial  tribunal  of  this  State.  Unfortunate  indeed,  there- 
fore, for  his  side  of  The  question,  must  be  the  discoveries  of  the  gentleman.  If,  after 
a  course  of  fifty-four  years,  talents,  industry  and  hypercriticism  themselves  have  not 
been  able  to  find  any  thing  censurable  in  the  conduct  of  the  Executive,  ought  an 
institution  so  blameless  to  be  rashly  thrown  down  When  gentlemen  are  called  upon 
to  put  something  as  good  in  its  place,  they  decline  the  necessary  task.  It  is  said, 
there  ought  to  be  a  Lieutenant  Governor.  To  do  what.?  To  do  nothing,  at  least 
under  the  arrangement  as  it  now  stands.  We  have  already  a  Lieutenant  Governor, 
who  is  President  of  the  Council,  and  who  acts  in  the  room  and  stead  of  the  Governor, 
in  certain  contingencies.  If  gentlemen  mean  to  give  us  a  Lieutenant  Governor 
without  assigning  him  any  duties,  then  they  will  give  us  an  officer,  who  possesses 


916 


APPENDIX  NO.  IT. 


the  title,  t>ut  has  nothing  to  do.  Whenever  they  attempt  to  assign  him  any  duties, 
the  utihty  of  a  Council  immediately  presents  itself.  Gentlemen  say,  this  Council 
must  consist  of  the  Attorney  General,  who  is  to  give  his  legal  advice,  when  called 
upon  by  the  Governor.  We  have  that  now.  I  never  hesitate  to  call  on  the  Attorney 
General,  whenever  his  official  advice  is  needed  on  any  important  point  of  law,  and 
this  advice  is  always  readily  given  in  writing,  and  when  necessary,  is  laid  before  the 
Assembly.  Again,  gentlemen  talk  about  the  Auditor  and  the  Treasurer  as  fit  mate- 
rials for  a  Council.  But,  one  great  duty  of  the  Executive  is  to  supervise  the  official 
conduct  of  these  very  officers.  How  has  that  supervision  been  useless  ?  The  Execu- 
tive has  detected  the  defalcations  of  two  treasurers,  and  has  thereby  saved  much  money 
to  the  State.  Another  power  exercised  by  the  Governor,  is  the  power  of  pardoning ; 
but,  that  subject  has  been  so  fully  developed  by  the  gentleman  from  Richmond,  (Mr. 
Nicholas,)  that  my  labour  in  considering  it  will  be  greatly  lessened.  Cases  frequently 
occur,  in  the  exercise  of  this  power,  where  the  advice  of  Council  is  necessary.  I 
certainly  never  felt  above  asking  it,  and  I  have  received  very  good  advice  upon  that 
point  as  well  as  others,  and  received  it  frequently.  All  the  Contingent  Fund  has  to 
pass  under  the  scrutiny  of  the  Council.  Such  is  the  strictness  of  their  examination, 
that  every  item  of  public  expense  may  be  said  to  undergo  the  scrutiny  of  a  miser. 
They  are  examined  down  to  a  dollar,  and  to  a  cent — and  I  can  truly  say,  that  fewer 
improper  accounts  are  passed  by  the  Executive  of  Virginia,  than  (as  I  beheve)  by  any 
other  fiscal  tribunal  under  the  sun.  Sir,  the  fact  has  become  notorious,  in  so  much 
that  the  money-hunters  have  all  abandoned  us.  They  cannot  get  a  cent  out  of  us, 
without  law  and  voucher.  Hence  it  comes  to  pass,  that  our  Contingent  Fund  has 
been  most  economically  expended.  In  this  department  also,  the  responsibility  of  the 
Governor  is  manifest.  The  Council  never  advises  him,  unless  it  is  asked  to  do  so. 
The  usual  practice  is  to  send  all  accounts,  as  a  matter  of  course,  to  the  Clerk  of  the 
Council.  The  Governor  exercises  his  responsibility  in  thus  presenting  them  ;  and 
when  the  accounts  are  passed  by  the  Council,  the  Governor  is  not  bound  to  issue  his 
warrant  for  the  amount — he  is  at  perfect  liberty  to  refuse  to  do  so.  The  Governor  is 
in  the  first  place  responsible  for  laying  an  account  before  the  Council.  The  Council 
is  responsible  for  advising  its  payment,  and  then  the  Governor  is  responsible  for 
taking  their  advice.  The  whole  is  matter  of  record,  and  that  record  is  submitted  to 
the  constituents  both  of  the  Governor  and  the  Council.  I  beg  gentlemen  to  take  this 
view  of  the  subject  into  consideration.  It  is  possible  I  may  have  some  partiality  for 
the  present  members  of  the  Council — it  is  very  natural  that  I  should  have.  I  have 
been  long  associated  with  them,  and  there  may  be  some  attachment  between  us  ;  but, 
that  attachment  shall  never  induce  me  to  misrepresent  one  iota  of  fact  in  relation  to 
their  duties,  or  to  their  responsibility.  I  consider  the  Executive  Council  a  most  im- 
portant provision  in  our  fundamental  law.  I  know  its  importance,  and  I  think  the 
Convention  ought  to  hesitate  before  they  put  it  down.  Let  us  not  first  vote  down  the 
Council,  till  we  have  got  sometliing  ready  to  put  up  in  its  stead.  Sir,  it  is  easy  to 
pull  down — any  body  can  do  that.  A  simple  lisp  of  the  tongue,  without  the  least 
exercise  of  the  head,  will  serve,  to  abolish  any  political  institution.  But  to  build  up, 
requires  the  head  !  Let  gentlemen  first  shew  us  their  substitute,  and  prove  to  us  that 
it  is  better  than  the  original  which  they  ask  us  to  destroy.  The  gentleman  from  Lou- 
doun, (Mr.  Henderson,)  has  with  honourable  frankness  acknowledged,  that  a  person 
proposing  any  change,  is  under  obligation  to  state  good  reasons  for  such  change.  I 
beg  gentlemen  to  look  at  the  reasons  he  has  adduced.  I  hope  to  have  the  pleasure 
of  hearing  that  gentleman  acknowledge,  in  the  same  spirit  of  honourable  frankness, 
that  after  weighing  and  considering  opinions,  which  he  had  thought  solid  and  sound, 
he  finds,  on  examination,  that  they  were  onlj-  specious  and  plausible.  But,  I  insist, 
that  it  is  the  duty  of  those  who  propose  any  change,  to  shew  that  there  exists  a  ne- 
cessit}'  for  it;  and  when,  for  so  long  a  course  of  time,  the  conduct  of  those  in  office 
has  been  unimpeachable,  is  there  not  a  peculiar  obligation  on  those  who  would  abolish 
the  office,  to  produce  solid,  obvious,  substantial  reasons,  strong  enough  to  strike  the 
mind  at  the  first  view  of  them.? 

Some  gentlemen  wi::h  to  give  the  Executive  more  power.  That  seems  in  fact,  the 
real  inducement  for  proposing  this  measure.  The  real  object  in  view  is  to  assimilate 
the  Executive  of  Virginia  to  that  of  the  United  States.  I  beg  gentlemen  seriously  to 
reflect  before  they  engage  in  such  a  design.  V\^e  have  seen  the  abortive  attempt  to 
shew  any  usurpation  of  authority,  and  let  it  be  remembered,  that  it  is  not  sufficient  to 
say,  the  Executive  may  err.  Have  they  ever  attempted  to  usurp  authority,  or  to  abuse 
it.^  None  can  pretend  it — yet  we  are  called  upon  to  imitate  the  Executive  of  the 
United  States.  Has  that  usurped  nothing  ?  The  gentlemen  are  clamorous  against 
the  usurpations  of  the  General  Government.  Yet  they  call  upon  us  to  imitate  the 
unfortunate  and  mischievous  example.  Give  your  Executive  similar  powers,  and  you 
will  have  similar  results.  For  my  part,  I  consider  the  Executive  of  the  United  States 
as  better  suited  to  a  monarchy  than  a  republic.  For  God's  sake,  let  us  not  imitate 
such  an  example  as  that.    It  is  the  very  last  in  all  our  republics,  that  I  should  be  dis- 


APPENDIX  NO.  II. 


917 


posed  to  follow.  Infinitely  better  would  it  be  for  the  security  of  the  liberties  of  the 
American  people,  if  the  framers  of  the  Constitution  of  the  United  States  had  followed 
our  example,  in  framing  the  Executive  Department  of  the  General  Government.  Its 
original  patronage  was  too  great,  but  that  has  become  ten  times  greater  now,  and  it 
will  hereafter  be  ten  times  greater  than  it  is  at  present.  It  is  constantly  accumulating, 
and  it  will  become  the  same  swelled  and  overgrown  monster  which  has  swallowed  up 
all  other  free  governments.  Gentlemen  will  do  well  to  reflect  upon  the  irresistible 
influence  of  a  vast  mass  of  accumulative  power  in  any  single  hand  wliatever.  The 
great  practical  question  of  the  Federal  Government  is,  who  shall  be  President,  and 
how  shall  he  distribute  his  vast  patronage.  Legislation  is  lost  sight  of :  The  very  evils 
of  the  dreadful  tariff"  itself,  were  not  brought  upon  us  from  any  consideration  of  the 
real  merits  of  the  tariff"  question,  Lut  the  calculation  was,  who  should  get  the  most 
votes  for  their  favourite  President  by  voting  for  the  unprincipled  tarilf — "  that  act  of 
abominations."  The  parties  threatened  one  another  with  losing  their  respective  can- 
didates for  President.  You  will  lose  your  President  if  you  vote  against  this  abomi- 
nable bill,"  was  the  threat  on  both  sides.  The  questions — is  it  right.''  is  it  moral.''  are 
its  principles  just.'^  were  all  disregarded.  The  Legislature  was  corrupt  to  its  root 
That  one  consideration  of  carrying  their  own  candidate,  had  more  eff"ect  upon  their 
proceedings  than  all  others  put  together.  The  great  cause  was  to  be  found  in  the  pat- 
ronage of  the  President.  Take  the  same  thing  on  a  smaller  scale.  Take  the  case  of 
Pennsylvania  :  Though  Jackson's  interest  was  powerful  there,  there  were  some  lurk- 
ing interests  of  the  opposite  party.  They  found  that  Adams  was  down,  so  they 
started  an  anti-masonic  candidate.  Electioneering  ran  high  :  at  length  the  true  Jack- 
sonians  succeeded,  and  there  were  two  hundred  and  eighty  of  true  Jacksonians,  ap- 
plicants for  office  from  Pliiladelphia  in  the  course  of  a  week.  Was  this  notiaing.''  Doe-s 
not  this  example  incontestibly  prove  tiiat  the  patronage  of  the  Executive,  according 
to  its  extent,  will  have  the  same  corrupting  influence,  whether  in  the  General  or  State 
Governments.'  But  one  gentleman  told  us,  "we  are  too  calm  in  Virginia.  We 
want  some  of  this  agitation  to  circulate  the  blood  through  the  body  politic."  Sir,  is 
this  the  kind  of  agitation  gentlemen  want.'  do  they  want  to  see  among  us  a  party 
government,  corrupt  to  its  very  core  ?  Their  motives,  I  have  no  doubt  are  as  pure  as 
can  be,  while  they  are  urging  us  to  abandon  a  system  from  which  we  have  derived 
every  blessing  we  possess.  Do  they  not  see  the  awful  responsibility  they  would  have 
us  assume.''  Do  they  remember,  that  what  they  would  change  involves  the  best  in- 
terests of  our  State.  Can  they  avoid  recollecting  what  must  be  their  own  fate,  and 
what  must  be  their  personal  interest  in  the  consequence Does  it  not  behove  us  to 
be  careful,  and  positively  sure  that  we  are  doing  right,  before  we  alter  what  is  now 
good  .''  What  will  our  constituents  say  if  we  fail  ?  If  the  new  Constitution  shall  not 
improve  the  sound  and  healthful  provisions  of  the  old  ?  If,  instead  of  soundness  and 
health  they  introduce  political  disease  Will  not  the  people  accuse  us  of  being  politi- 
cal quacks,  instead  of  grave  and  wise  statesmen.?  Has  not  the  gentleman  some  terror, 
lest  after  he  has  carried  his  point,  he  shall  be  condemned  by  the  judgment  of  pos- 
terity Before  we  tear  down  our  political  edifice  to  please  these  gentlemen,  let  us  at 
least  understand  what  we  are  to  have  in  its  place.  Have  gentlemen  settled  it  in  their 
mind  that  they  will  make  no  sacrifices  of  opinion.'  Sir,  we  had  some  little  expe- 
rience in  the  Executive  Committee.  Gentlemen  found  it  hard  to  tell  what  their 
Lieutenant-Governor  was  to  do,  or  how  that  duty  was  to  be  performed  which  the 
Council  are  doing  every  day  with  facility.  Yet  they  call  upon  us  to  tear  down  this 
Executive,  and  they  alarm  our  fears  by  threatening  us  with  another  borrowed  from 
the  United  States. 

Sir,  when  I  rose  I  meant  only  to  state  facts  which  I  conceived  to  have  an  important 
bearing  upon  the  subject.  These  I  wished  to  state  with  perfect  coolness,  and  in  the 
clearest  manner,  and  then  to  submit  a  few  observations  which  naturally  grew  out  of 
them.  I  have  been  insensibly  drawn  farther  than  I  intended.  I  know  the  impatience 
of  gentlemen  in  listening  to  a  set  speech,  and  God  knows  I  was  far  enough  from  in- 
tendino;  to  make  any  thing  that  could  bear  that  name.  I  will  not  farther  trespass 
upon  the  patience  of  the  House. 


918 


APPENDIX  NO.  III. 


(No.  3.) 

A  brief  sketch  of  Mr.  Giles's  Remarks  on  the  Judiciary,  (Dec,  29.) 
Referred  to  in  page  766. 

Mr.  Giles  said,  that  he  perceived,  and  participated  in,  the  impatience  of  the  House, 
and  nothing  could  induce  him  to  meet  it,  but  an  imperious  sense  of  duty.  He  hoped 
to  be  excused  for  offering  a  few  remarks,  which  he  would  endeavour  to  render  as  short 
as  possible.  He  had  had  the  misfortune  the  other  day,  to  differ  from  the  venerable 
gentleman  from  Richmond,  (C.  J.  Marshall,)  on  points  which  he  conceived  to  be  of 
the  first  impression.  That  gentleman,  unless  he  had  misunderstood  him,  conceived 
that  all  the  Judges  of  the  State  held  their  offices  during  life. 

[Mr.  Marshall  here  interposed.  The  gentleman  had  entirely  misunderstood  him,  if 
he  had  supposed  him  either  to  say  or  to  think  the  commission  of  the  Judges  was  a 
commission  during  life,  and  that  a  breach  of  good  behaviour  did  not  terminate  it. 
Their  commission  did  extend  for  life,  if  their  good  behaviour  should  continue  so  long, 
but  not  otherwise.] 

Mr.  Giles  resumed.  So  he  had  understood  the  gentleman.  He  had  supposed  him 
to  mean,  that  Judges  held  their  offices  for  life,  on  one  single  condition,  to  wit,  unless 
forfeited  by  misbehaviour.  But,  his  own  doctrine  was,  that  a  Judge  held  his  office 
only  during  the  continuance  of  that  office,  and  his  good  behaviour  therein.  Abolish 
the  court,  and  there  was  nothing  left  for  the  Judge  to  hold.  There  was  then  no  office 
in  existence  in  fact.  To  say  that  a  Judge  continued  to  hold  his  office  after  the  court 
to  which  he  belonged  was  abolished,  was  analogous  to  declaring,  that  he  should  enjoy 
his  life  after  death.  A  respect  for  the  feelings  and  opinions  of  honourable  gentlemen, 
would  not  permit  him  to  call  such  a  position  an  absurdity,  or  a  contradiction  in  terms, 
but  it  contained  an  incompatibility,  such  as  he  could  not  reconcile.  When  he  had 
the  other  day  returned  from  this  Hall  to  his  Chamber,  he  found  there  the  commission 
of  a  Judge,  waiting  for  authentication,  and  he  had  taken  the  trouble  to  make  a  copy 
of  it,  which  he  would  now  read. 

Here  Mr.  Giles  read  the  commission  of  a  Judge. 

What,  asked  Mr.  G.,  does  this  commission  authorise  the  Judge  to  enjoy His 
office.  In  wliat  court?  In  "  the  General  Court."  Abolish  the  General  Court,  and 
where  is  the  office  of  the  Judge His  office  is  merely  an  adjunct  of  the  court;  yet 
gentlemen  say,  when  the  court  is  destroyed,  the  office  remains.  I  repeat  it,  that  this 
sounds  to  me  like  saying  a  man  may  enjoy  his  life  after  death,  or  at  least  that  one 
hand  is  left  for  the  purpose  of  receiving,  after  the  body  to  which  it  is  attached  is  de- 
prived of  every  vital  function.  Do  gentlemen  see  any  thing  here  about  the  Judge 
holding  his  office  during  life  ?  No — nothing  like  it.  This  commission  gives  him  an 
office  in  a  particular  court.  Upon  the  non-existence  of  that  court,  that  office  ceases 
to  exist  of  course.  Could  any  thing  be  more  absurd,  than  to  commission  a  Judge,  to 
hold  his  office  during  good  behaviour,  without  the  designation  of  any  court  to  which 
it  is  attached,  thus  leaving  him  to  be  Judge  of  any  court,  or  all  courts.^  Was  there 
ever  any  such  case  in  existence,  or  is  there  any  such  now But  it  had  been  said, 
that  a  Judge  commissioned  in  the  General  Court,  nevertheless  performed  District 
Court  service,  and  that  there  is  nothing  in  mere  name.  I  say,  that  there  is  a  great 
deal  in  a  name,  when  that  name  properly  defines  a  substance — and  in  a  case  of  the 
District  Courts,  the  Judges  of  the  General  Court  had  merely  changed  their  plan  of 
operation.  If  the  General  Court  were  abolished,  could  the  Judges  continue  to  per- 
form duty  either  there,  or  in  the  District  Courts,  or  any  where  else.?    Certainly  not. 

Mr.  G.  said,  that  he  objected  to  the  amendment  of  the  gentleman  from  Spottsyl- 
vania,  (Mr.  Stanard,)  because  it  embodied  a  mass  of  complex  ideas,  in  order  to  get 
rid  of  a  contradiction.  It  amounted  to  a  sophism,  and  went  to  destroy  that  simplicity 
which  should  always  characterize  an  organic  law.  He  might  possibly  be  in  favour 
of  such  an  amendment,  if  the  original  clause  must  stand,  but  he  hoped  the  House 
would  get  rid  of  both  the  clause  and  the  amendment. 

I  ask  the  gentleman  from  Richmond  to  consider,  if  after  prescribing  this  provision 
in  his  Conventional  character,  he  should  then  be  transferred  to  the  Legislature  to  carry 
it  into  effect,  how  he  would  act I  ask  him  what  those  duties  are  which  remain  for 
a  Judge  to  perform  after  his  court  has  been  destroyed  There  are  no  duties ;  and  how 
then  can  any  be  assigned  ^  There  is  an  attempt  too  to  make  this  imperative ;  that  is 
the  evident  design,  though  I  own  that  the  words  will  bear  a  construction  that  leaves 
this  optional  with  the  Legislature.  What  sort  of  Judge  is  to  perform  these  duties.? 
There  is  no  description  given,  and  the  inference  is,  that  Judges  of  all  sorts,  compe- 
tent and  incompetent,  as  soon  as  they  are  thrown  out  of  office,  by  the  abolition  of  their 
court,  must  have  judicial  duties  assigned  to  them.  Is  it  not  strange  that  the  Legisla- 
ture should  be  called  upon ;  should  be  almost  commanded  to  assign  duties  to  an  incom- 


APPENDIX  NO  III. 


919 


petent  Judge  ?  Yet  here  is  no  exception,  no  saving  clause.  Gentlemen  tell  us  the 
difficulty  may  be  avoided  by  the  provisions  of  the  eighth  section,  and  I  acknowledge 
that  the  tv/o  ought  to  be  taken  together :  but  here  is  a  provision  that  must  stand  un- 
less according  to  the  eighth  section,  two- thirds  of  both  Houses  shall  consent  to  turn 
out  the  Judge.  We  have  Judges  now  that  are  incompetent,  yet  the  Legislature  is 
bound  to  assign  them  duties. 

I  am  as  much  in  favor  of  the  complete  independence  of  the  Judiciary  as  the  warm- 
est advocate  of  that  principle,  but  1  am  in  favor  of  its  responsibility  also  :  I  hold  these 
two  things  not  to  be  incompatible.  1  would  make  all  the  Judges  responsible,  not  to 
God  and  their  own  conscience  only,  but  to  a  human  tribunal.  I  hold  in  my  hand  a 
history  of  the  independence  of  the  Judges  in  England  :  I  will  not  weary  the  Conven- 
tion by  reading  it,  but  will  briefly  state  its  substance.  Judges  in  England  were  an- 
ciently the  Commissioners  of  the  King.  The  Executive  and  the  Judicial  offices  were 
united,  and  the  Judges  were  at  first  appointed  during  pleasure.  In  the  time  of  Queen 
Anne,  their  compensation  was  fixed  by  law,  but  they  were  all  removed  from  office  by 
the  demise  of  the  Crown.  In  the  first  year  of  George  the  3d,  the  statute  was  passed 
which  conferred  upon  them  complete  and  absolute  independence.  The  tenure  of  their 
office  was  placed  upon  good  behaviour,  and  their  salar}'  was  fixed.  But  what  do  we 
understand  by  the  independence  of  the  Judges  in  this  country.''  We  too  place  the 
tenure  of  their  office  upon  good  behaviour,  but  we  add  another  and  a  very  important 
provision;  for,  we  say  that  their  salary  shall  not  be  diminished  during  their  continu- 
ance in  office.  Here  is  a  vast  security  to  which  the  English  Judges  are  strangers; 
and  yet  the  English  Judges  are  deemed  completely  independent — why  then  not  ours 
under  more  favorable  circumstances  ?  With  their  support.  Parliament  can  do  what  it 
pleases ;  but  we  have  gone  one  point  farther,  in  makmg  them  really  and  fully  inde- 
pendent. And  what  i  ask  is  the  independence  of  a  Judge  It  is  neither  more  nor 
less  than  this:  that  when  he  pronounces  judgment,  he  shall  do  it  with  the  certainty 
that  he  can  neither  gain  nor  lose  by  his  decision.  If  you  take  away  your  requirement 
of  two-thirds  of  the  Legislature,  and  put  it  in  the  power  of  a  bare  majority  to  turn  them 
out  of  office,  you  still  leave  them  on  as  good  a  footing  and  better,  than  they  have  in 
England.  But  here  you  first  clog  the  Legislature  in  its  action  upon  them  by  requiring 
two-thirds  of  the  whole  ninnber  of  members  elected  ;  you  then  give  the  Judge  to  be 
removed  a  citation  of  twenty  days,  and  allow  full  scope  to  all  the  chicanery  which  can 
be  brought  to  bear  by  himself  and  his  friends  to  prevent  his  removal.  These  excep- 
tions to  the  ordinary  course  of  legislation ,  go  beyond  independence  ;  they  now  deserve 
another  name  :  they  amount  to  favoritism.  You  establish  what  I  did  once  call  a  pri- 
vileged order;  but  I  will  recall  the  term,  out  of  respect  to  the  feelings  of  gentlemen, 
since  it  is  considered  by  some  as  offensive.  But  certainly  these  are  so  many  excep- 
tions, and  what  are  exceptions  but  privileges  ?  Sir,  I  hope  the  clause  will  be  stricken 
out:  the  eighth  resolution  provides  an  incompetent  remedy:  the  gentlemen  them- 
selves own  this,  and  say  that  that  resolution  may  be  amended  ;  but  it  is  not  yet  amend- 
ed, and  suppose  it  should  not  be,  there  will  then  be  no  pro[)er  provision  to  impose  on 
the  Judiciary  a  due  responsibilit}^  Gentlemen  are  making  a  great  effijrt  of  the  hu- 
man mind  to  avoid  a  danger  which  has  never  occurred  but  in  the  single  instance  of 
Kentucky  ;  that  of  the  abidition  of  a  court  for  the  purpose  of  getting  rid  of  the  Judges, 
I  disapprove  of  any  such  expedient,  but  it  arose  from  this  very  restriction  which  gen- 
tlemen are  so  anxious  to  impose  upon  the  Legislative  power.  The  Legislature  of 
Kentucky  was  placed  in  just  that  condition,  that  a  majority  could  be  obtained  to  turn 
out  the  Judges,  but  not  tliree-fifths  of  the  Assembly.  The  Governor  happened  to 
concur  with  a  majority  of  the  Legislature  :  If  a  simple  majority  possessed  the  power 
to  displace,  the  difficulty  would  not  have  occurred.  But,  they  found  that  three-fifths 
were  required  by  the  Constitution,  and  they  resorted  to  the  other  expedient,  because 
it  was  necessary  to  the  object  they  had  in  view  :  yet  we  are  about  to  establish  the  very 
same  principle,  against  ail  the  requirements  of  lair  and  rational  responsibility.  Re- 
sponsibility IS  the  characteristic  principle  of  your  Government  throughout;  and  why  ^ 
should  there  not  be  such  a  thing  as  Judicial  responsibility  ?  Your  eighth  resolution 
says  there  shall  be  such  a  thing,  but  you  clog  it  with  provisions  which  make  it/e/o  de 
se.  It  is  like  an  obligation  with  a  defeasance  written  in  the  face  of  it :  You  enforce 
the  principles  of  responsibility  in  two  of  the  departments  of  your  Government  with 
great  anxiety,  and  completely  abandon  it  in  the  other  part  of  it  I  am  in  favor  of  car- 
rying the  principle  throughout. 


CORRECTIONS, 


Page  272 — In  the  report  of  Mr.  Johnson's  speech,  reference  is  made  to  an  explanation  by  Mr.  P.  F. 
Barbour.  The  words  of  that  explanation,  more  accurately  stated,  are  as  follow : 
"  Mr.  Barbour  explained,  when  he  referred  to  the  Roman  Comitia,  as  formed  by  centuries 
and  tribes  :  It  was  for  the  purpose  of  shewing  that  each  was  in  the  extreme,  and  that 
neither  by  itself  ought  to  bo  adopted  ;  that  the  Comitia  by  centuries  were  organized,  so 
that  property  alone  prevailed  over  numbers  ;  and  the  Comitia  by  tribes,  so  that  numbers 
alone  prevailed  over  property.  This  difference  in  the  mode  of  organization  produced  con- 
flict between  them,  so  as  to  array  them  in  hostility  against  each  other.  He  went  neither 
for  the  representation  of  property  or  persons  alone,  but  for  one  founded  upon  tliem  both, 
so  as  to  produce  not  conflict,  but  harmony  between  them  :  the  effect  of  the  amendment 
of  the  gentleman  from  Culpeper,  would  be  the  attainment  of  this  object." 

Page  357 — Line  16,  in  Mr.  Henderson's  speech  on  the  Right  of  Suffrage,  for  "  Horn,"  read  "  him." 

Page  441 — Judge  Coalter,  in  speaking  of  incurring  a  debt  for  purposes  of  Internal  Improvement,  said, 
that  he  thought  "  such  debt  ought  to  be  created,  whenever  there  is  a  well-founded  belief, 
that  the  improvement  will  yield  a  profit  equal,  or  nearly  equal,  to  the  interest  of  the 
money  expended.  He  said,  that  he  was  a  friend  to  Internal  Improvement ;  but,  as  all 
national  debts,  whether  to  carry  on  war,  for  purposes  of  Internal  Improvement,  or  any 
other  great  scheme,  are  to  be  a  lien  on  the  lands  of  the  country,  which  are  immovable, 
and  are  not  so  on  chattels,  which  can  be  removed  at  pleasure,  those  whose  real  estates  are 
to  be  thus  permanently  mortgaged,  ought  exclusively  to  judge  of  the  expediency  of  cre- 
ating such  incumbrance." 

Page  471 — Line  14,  in  Mr.  Henderson's  speech  on  the  election  of  Governor  by  the  people,  for  "  com- 
plete," read  "  complex." 

Line  16,  for  "required,"  read  "  acquired." 

Line  46,  for  "prostrate,"  read  "  protract." 

Line  49,  for  "  with,"  read  "  not." 

Line  52,  for  Few,"  read  "  Two." 
Page  472 — Line  27,  for  "  true,"  read  "  here." 
Page  473— Line  II,  for  "  this,"  read  "  the." 

Line  24,  for  "  soberminded  men,"  read  "  soberraindedness  " 
Page  702 — In  Mr.  Upshur's  speech,  first  paragraph,  3d  hne,  between  "  were"  and  "  met,"  insert  "  not." 
Page  703— 9th  line,  for  "  exceptionable,"  read  "  unacceptable." 

31st  line,  for  "This  object,"  read  "His  object." 

46th  line,  for  "  07ie  number,"  read  "  our  number." 

4th  line  from  the  foot,  for  "  evcT^j  other  basis,"  read  "  any  other,"  &c. 


f 

Virgi  n1  a  „  Con,st1  tuti  ourI 

Convention,  1829-1830. 

P7-onRftding;s   rug  debfitft.Q  .  .  .  . 

LI  .^966  IRm 

DATE 

ISSUED  TO 

